From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 00:02:46 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:02:46 +0000 Subject: camera damage from "the best" foam In-Reply-To: <20141130130008.B35631@shell.lmi.net> References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net>, <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> , <20141130130008.B35631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > Frankly, anybody needing something in the 180mm range has a lot of [in my > opinion] better options in newer gear. For example, my rangefinder I have always considered an Leica M + visoflex to be something of a kludge. I really can't understand why my father bought that back in the 1960s rather than say a Nikon F. > coupled 200mm Komura or ANY SLR with a 200mm lens is WAY more convenient I think using the Leica rangefinder, with its relatively short base line, with a 200mm lens is not going to be that accurate. FWIW, the only reason I have the 180mm f/2.8 Nikkor is that due to the cosmetic damage the camera shop was selling it for less than a 200mm f/4 Nikkor which is what I actually went to buy. Since I don't take action shots, I didn't need the extra speed, but it might be useful. And it will do what I want (pick out details on buildings, etc). > and easier to use than visoflex plus 180mm tele-elmarit - THAT is an > extraordinary amount of weight and bulk. Therefore, the primary value of > that lens would have been to a collector who wants the RARE aspect, and > they want it to look good. Cosmetic damage is significant in THAT market. Sure. It's a great pity this happened. -tony From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Dec 1 00:04:04 2014 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:04:04 -0800 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> On 11/30/2014 05:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I never got to that point--the NSC chip was so late that it wasn't > even a candidate. I seem to recall some discussion that the early > 16032 chips were a little on the flaky side, but that may have been > rumor. It was a fact, but even if/when they (mostly) fixed it the "rep" continued to dog them. There are certainly indications they had those kinds of issues with products besides the 32k family. And I think they always struggled to achieve the higher-clocked yields and performance they needed across designs. This is all based on odd bits of reading over the years as I wasn't interested in (and had barely heard of) the ns32k until Bruce Culbertson shared his homebrew 32016 design around 1990 - long after the competition had left Nat Semi behind. On 11/30/2014 04:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > How did they compare in price with the m68k? Because that chip (pretty > much) "just worked", so if the price was comparable then I can > certainly see why it gained such acceptance and the ns32k line fell by > the wayside. I'm not clear on the pricing, but the ns32k was designed and delivered as a complete chipset to support multi-user, virtual memory systems with a 32bit-wide CPU design. Even though the MC68000 was slower at 32bit operations it was available several years earlier, and (I gather) was at least equally targeted at "standalone" use like a traditional MPU, or using 6800-family peripherals, so that as the price curve fell it could move into mid- and low-end applications and develop an enormous volume advantage... And then you've got a solid track record, vast adoption, and the forward-compatibility of the instruction set with the fully-32bit 68020 when it shows up circa 1984. Even though the 32032 was released that year, and the 32016 had been out for two years, NSC still had some nasty errata and only a 24-bit physical address space, and were both much slower than the '020. You can certainly find examples of the 32016 being used stand-alone, but not with anything like the ubiquity of the 68000... In terms of performance, you can still find a lot of lively "discussion" in a NetNews archive that includes net.micro.16k, net.micro.32k, and comp.sys.nsc.32k. The 32032 only outpaced the 32016 when the 32bit wide data bus came into play despite coming two years later, and still topped out at 10MHz. The 68020 seems to have beaten them both handily clock for clock, and of course that eventually went up to what, 30MHz? The 32332 arrived in 1985 but only reached 15MHz and was never more than 50% faster best case than the '032. The 32532 of 1987 was a complete redesign and finally seemed to trump the 68030 and 80386 - only to be pummeled by the emerging RISC designs... Despite the issues with early silicon, there were some notable adopters. Encore and Sequent delivered multiprocessor systems based on the ns32k family. Siemens-Nixdorf built a few models running SINIX. Definicon and OPUS shipped add-in boards for PCs, using the x86 for I/O. Tektronix delivered a couple models of UTek workstations. More notable than "successful" since this wasn't commercial, but Niklaus Wirth et al at ETH Z?rich built their Ceres workstations using the ns32k family. Bill Jolitz, later of 386BSD fame, built and sold the very portable Symmetric S/375 using a 32016 chipset (and running 4.2BSD). And you've got others like Whitechapel, Acorn, BBC Micro - CompuPro even shipped an S-100 32016 board. But for my money the most interesting two designs were Bruce Culbertson's homebrew 32016 design, and the pc532 by Dave Rand and George Scolaro (both of whom had been part of the Definicon team). Culbertson ported MINIX to his design, and later to the pc532. Both designs were freely available, but Dave and George organized a run of around 200 of the complex multi-layer pc532 system board in the early 90s and a group-buy of the more expensive parts like the processor complex. The pc532 would eventually run MINIX, Mach, and NetBSD/pc532. BTW - If you've got a spare pc532 sitting in a closet, I'd like to get one... ;) On 11/30/2014 04:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > One of these days, I think I'd quite like to find one of the FPUs The NS32081 enjoyed some popularity as an FPA with non-ns32k systems. In fact the only application note in National's 1984 Series 32000 Databook interfaces the 32081 with a 68000... On 11/30/2014 05:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > National released 4.1BSD for it. Opus Systems had it running on their > PC coprocessor card. Nat Semi also offered some flavor of System V Release 2 by 1986-87. And I think SysV was offered by OPUS and some other OEMs. Never have found out what software - if any - CompuPro offered for their 32016 board. --Steve. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 00:05:37 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:05:37 +0000 Subject: OT: camera damage from "the best" foam In-Reply-To: References: <5479E16A.7090909@cimmeri.com> <20141129083803.F16503@shell.lmi.net> <7FD33E17-D0F9-4F71-93C0-3AC35D47023E@aracnet.com> <20141130130008.B35631@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: > I'm always interested in hearing about Zeiss items. A few years back a good friend was having a clear-out and said he had 'an old microscope' if I wanted it. I did. It turned out to be a fairly modern (1970s?) Zeiss with a few accessories. It needed a trivial repair to the PSU for the lamp but was otherwise perfect. Yes, I am keeping it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 00:09:10 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:09:10 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com>,<547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: > One of these days, I think I'd quite like to find one of the FPUs; I've got The 32081? I think the 16081 was the same chip, if it ever existed under that number. > a few Acorn boards which use the 32016, but I've only ever seen one out in > the wild with the floating point unit fitted - and I happen to have a copy I can't remember if my ACW has it fitted or not. It has a socket for it, certainly. > of Acorn's FP test code which came via an ex-employee. To my knowledge no > commercial software (such as there even was any for the hardware) ever used > it, but it seems a shame to have the code and nothing to run it against. I think all Whitechapel MG1s have a 32081 fitted. I have a spare MG1 motherboard somewhere, perhaps I should pull the FPU chip and try it in an Acorn. -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 00:13:56 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 07:13:56 +0100 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> Message-ID: 2014-12-01 7:04 GMT+01:00 Steven M Jones : > > Despite the issues with early silicon, there were some notable adopters. > Encore and Sequent delivered multiprocessor systems based on the ns32k > family. Siemens-Nixdorf built a few models running SINIX. Definicon and > OPUS shipped add-in boards for PCs, using the x86 for I/O. Tektronix > delivered a couple models of UTek workstations. More notable than > "successful" since this wasn't commercial, but Niklaus Wirth et al at > ETH Z?rich built their Ceres workstations using the ns32k family. > > I have two OPUS boards, one with a NS32032 and one with a NS32016. Many years ago I tried to find the OS for them, but never succeeded. Does anyone knows about the software needed for these? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 00:16:11 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:16:11 +0000 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> , <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > Not sure what makes it an international model, although it does say 50-60Hz, > and it does not have a captive power cord, so presumably it is an > international one. I will have to take a look inside, but I really don't > have any idea what I would need to do to convert it. Nothing specific to the VT3xx Normally SMPSUs that can be converted to run off 115V or 230V mains run the chopper off about 350V DC. The mains input rectifier circuit is configured to be a simple bridge rectifier for 230V and a voltage doubler for 115V. The conversion is nothing more than a link from the neutral side of the mains to the centre tap of a pair of smoothing capacitors in series (if you look at the circuit, you end up with 2 diodes that are redundant, always reverse-biased, in the voltage doubler circuit, but that is no problem). So look for a link on the PSU board in this area. If you are lucky it will either have 2 positions labelled '115V' and '230V' (in the latter position it actually does nothing) or will be marked 'fit for 115V' or something. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 1 00:51:21 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:51:21 -0800 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2014, at 5:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/11/14 8:16 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer >> daemon to 2.11bsd? > > Best I can find is LEX-11, on TSX-Plus. > > Surprised Wordstar wasn't ported. :) > > --Toby DECword/DP on RSTS/E and Micro-RSTS, my notes say it made it to at least v1.2. On CTS-300 you had DECtype. There were also third party options. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any copies of the software that have been preserved. Once upon a time, there was an unbelievable amount of software available for the PDP-11, we only have a tiny fraction of it still available. There is a lesson in this. Is this when I mention that I'm still searching for DECnet for RT-11. Zane From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Dec 1 00:55:28 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:55:28 +0000 Subject: VAX/VMS Software Source Book, 6th Edition (Oct 1990) PDF, Programming in VAX Fortran PDF Message-ID: I've just scanned the 1000-odd page software source book for VAX/VMS, 6th Edition from October 1990, available from my scans page: http://wickensonline.co.uk/app/index.html#/scans This is a mammoth book (beware the 643MB download size!) but is a fantastic example of just how pervasive VAX and VMS were. It contains a comprehensive listing of software available for the platform both from DEC and independent software houses. Interesting personally is the indication of programming language used. I've also uploaded Programming in VAX Fortran (Sept 84): I wasn't aware of an online copy of this manual. It's a very handy guide to programming in Fortran that covers everything you'd need to get up and running with the language under VAX/VMS, including the use of EDIT, compiling, linking and debugging, as well as reference material on the language and supporting libraries. Enjoy, Mark. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 02:21:38 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 02:21:38 -0600 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547BF387.9070400@sydex.com> References: <5474EB47.3040204@sydex.com> <20141126070633.GC98832@beast.freibergnet.de> <54762058.8030603@sydex.com> <201411271417.JAA01830@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547774CE.4070308@sydex.com> <54778562.4050808@sydex.com> <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> <547BF387.9070400@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/30/2014 06:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > A powered but un-used hob is really just a trap waiting to be sprung. >> Automatic shutdown is a very wise measure. >> > > The one I've got is really paranoid. (...) Oddly enough, I really > appreciate that. I've seen residential fires start in the most sudden, rapid and unexpected ways.. anything we can do to keep that sort of thing to a minimum (without creating undue encumbrance) is a Good Thing. Don't ask me about the time the cat accidentally knocked a 9V battery into a trashcan, that also contained some used #0000 steel wool and various papers. If I hadn't been nearby, it might have taken the house. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 1 02:49:11 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 00:49:11 -0800 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> <00bb01d00c77$ddc87d90$995978b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <574A1E00-F012-4BB6-A03C-6EDE1D7324C3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-30, at 11:07 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > I would vote for the Whirlwind. In addition to an interesting > architecture, the machine has a fascinating history! -- Ian It's one of my favorite early machines too. It was just so far-looking in objective. While all the other first-generation machines under construction at the time - state-of-the-art themselves - were intended for number-crunching applications in what would become batch-processing, Whirlwind was leap-frogging them by 10-15 years in vision, targetting real-time simulation with human interaction. One of the SAGE blockhouses should have been kept intact with the full & functioning equipment installation. > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:30 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> I would say that in the US you have CHM and the LCM which exhibit working >> mainframes. There are also MARCH and the New Jersey (I think) Museums which >> show working machines. In the UK several working exhibits have been >> "mothballed". The Science Museum has discontinued Pegasus demos, my project >> to restore some of the Pegasus i/o equipment at MOSI has been suspended, >> and >> the Hartree Differential Analyser is to be removed from display. Personally >> I would rather that money was expended on keeping real mainframes running >> rather than building replicas, >> >> I also note that the Baby Replica at MOSI is now around 16 years old, it >> first ran in 1998. Its almost an artefact in its own right... >> >> Dave Wade >> G4UGM >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent >>> Hilpert >>> Sent: 30 November 2014 07:48 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: EDSAC lives >>> >>> So, we have the ABC, Colossus, Manchester Baby, and now the EDSAC. >>> >>> Anyone for the ENIAC? Univac I? IAS machine? Whirlwind? >>> >>> How come 3 of the 4 are in Britain? >>> >>> >>> On 2014-Nov-29, at 9:12 PM, John Foust wrote: >>>> The National Museum of Computing unveils EDSAC re-creation: >>>> >>>> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30131447 >> >> >> > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS > Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > University of Washington > > An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An > engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 1 02:50:49 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 00:50:49 -0800 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <547B77D0.2080209@snarc.net> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> <547B77D0.2080209@snarc.net> Message-ID: <932B0350-82A4-4607-9CA4-A8E64D4164A1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Nov-30, at 12:02 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Anyone for the ENIAC? > > I'm very friendly with the Mauchly / Eckert families and I know for fact that they want to do something similar. > > But there are the usual obstacles: space and money. > > Their primary goal is to gather all the remaining ENIAC pieces (which are curently are various museums around the world) and replicate the missing pieces. However they would also be happy with a full-scale replica. > > We do have the space at the InfoAge museum here in NJ; naturally the families would prefer a location in metro Philadelphia. If someone has a spare 2M$... I do wonder about the logistics one would run into doing a machine the size of the ENIAC. Maybe there's more NOS stuff out there than I realise, but sourcing 18000 tubes and associated components is different than a few hundred. Granted, you don't have to build out the full complement of accumulators. Didn't someone have 2 of the accumulators powered up, or am I completely mis-remembering something? From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 1 04:21:23 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 11:21:23 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547C4123.8090004@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-01 05:53, Ian S. King wrote: > On Nov 30, 2014 6:10 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" wrote: >> >> Yeah, but troff is too hard. I need something at least like emacs. Or >> preferably like wordstar. Guess I need to check out this LEX-11. >> > > Hm, that's an interesting statement. Troff is much like LaTeX: a markup > language for formatting. Emacs is an editor that doesn't give a wet slap > about formatting beyond basic line structure. I use Emacs to write and > LaTeX to produce layout. Ayup. > But neither Emacs (originally EMACS, "eight megabytes and continuously > swapping") nor LaTeX is ever going to run on a PDP-11. I'm not familiar > with LEX-11, but why not get a PDP-8 and run WPS-8? :-) Tsk. You should know better, Ian. EMACS stands for Editing Macros. It wasn't that resource hog until RMS rewrote the whole thing in C... But yeah. TeX isn't going to fly on a PDP-11, I think. But DEC made WORD-11 as well, for RSX. Not that I've ever seen it live, but I have books that blurb about it. And of course, you have RUNOFF. But yes, finding out what the OP really want to accomplish would be good. I got totally confused by the remark about porting a "contemporary line printer daemon" to 2bsd as an alternative. A line printer daemon is a totally different thing, not to mention that I believe that lpd already exists, and any later stuff is really worse than that. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From lars at nocrew.org Mon Dec 1 05:57:53 2014 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:57:53 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1045D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> (Rich Alderson's message of "Sun\, 30 Nov 2014 20\:03\:45 +0000") References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1045D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <85ppc37fb2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Rich Alderson writes: > I worked at XKL for 10 years before coming to my present job 11 > years ago. Putting the Toad-1 into an FPGA was an experiment when I > left. It was? During my stint at XKL, I was told the Toad-1 I was working with was an FPGA implementation. Maybe it was an experiment, but it seemed to work pretty well. But then, I was a telecommuter, so maybe some information was jumbled in long-distance transmission. From lars at nocrew.org Mon Dec 1 06:03:54 2014 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 13:03:54 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <547BAE0C.4080000@gmail.com> (Rob Doyle's message of "Sun\, 30 Nov 2014 16\:53\:48 -0700") References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <547BAE0C.4080000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85lhmr7f11.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Rob Doyle writes: > Given that a PDP-10 only supports a virtual address space of 256 KW, That's not quite right. The "Model B" KL supported a 23-bit virtual address, and later clones extended that to 30 bits. I fairly sure there was a port of GCC that targeted PDP-10 with extended addressing. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 06:05:15 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 05:05:15 -0700 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <85ppc37fb2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1045D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <85ppc37fb2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:57 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Rich Alderson writes: >> I worked at XKL for 10 years before coming to my present job 11 >> years ago. Putting the Toad-1 into an FPGA was an experiment when I >> left. > It was? During my stint at XKL, I was told the Toad-1 I was working > with was an FPGA implementation. Maybe it was an experiment, but it > seemed to work pretty well. But then, I was a telecommuter, so maybe > some information was jumbled in long-distance transmission. You guys probably have more information about this than I do, but my understanding was that the Toad-1 CPU required multiple FPGAs, CPLDs, and other logic, while the Toad-2 CPU is a single FPGA. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 06:16:37 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 05:16:37 -0700 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <85lhmr7f11.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20141128154413.GB28380@Update.UU.SE> <547BAE0C.4080000@gmail.com> <85lhmr7f11.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Rob Doyle writes: >> Given that a PDP-10 only supports a virtual address space of 256 KW, > > That's not quite right. The "Model B" KL supported a 23-bit virtual > address, and later clones extended that to 30 bits. I'm not sure why DEC limited the section table on the Model B KL10 to 32 sections, resulting in the 8MW per-process virtual memory limit, but they reserved 12 bits in the section number to allow for future support of 4096 sections, which would result in a 1GW limit. There was room in the EPT/UPT to expand the section table somewhat, perhaps to as many as 128 entries, but obviously not to 4096 entries. There's evidence that DEC intended to go to a two-level section table in Jupiter, with the EPT/UPT having the first level of section table, pointing to pages for the second level section tables. It's my understanding that XKL followed that basic plan, though perhaps the details might not match Jupiter (which doesn't matter since Jupiter didn't ship). From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 1 06:43:22 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:43:22 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547C4123.8090004@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547C4123.8090004@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <01c201d00d64$64a378f0$2dea6ad0$@classiccmp.org> What I saw commonly used back in the day was "Saturn". I know for sure it ran on RT11 at least. I have a several floppies of it, including original distribution floppies. ISTR it was used a lot by newspapers, but also college/highSchool newsletters, correspondence, etc. It might have some type of copy protection, not sure. Best, J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 06:52:35 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: <20141201125235.A296318C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> Yeah, but troff is too hard. I'm going to pass over the obvious question ('why would anybody be doing word processing on a PDP-11 in this day and age' :-), and ask if nroff is also too hard? Since it's only intended for character devices (line printers, etc) it's not quite as complex as troff.a I'm not sure if Bell had anything simpler; I'll have to look at my V6 Unix manual set. > From: Ian S. King > But ... Emacs (originally EMACS, "eight megabytes and continuously > swapping") .. is ever going to run on a PDP-11. If you restrict yourself to GNU Emacs, yes. But there are more implementations of EMACS in the world than that bloated monstrosity! We ran an EMACS on V6 Unix at MIT, I forget who wrote it, I think it was someone at BBN; it was quite a nice one. It was quite customizable (but that have only been key bindings and settings, not sure if it included code), and it had all the usual features: multiple buffers and windows, etc. (In fact, it was so painful to use on a VT52, with its small screen, that I migrated to a Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal, with its much large screen, as soon as it became available.) I have several sets of backup tapes from one of the V6 machines at MIT; I sent one off to Chuck Guzis, and he's gotten almost all the bits off of it (a few records had unrecoverable read errors, but the vast majority were OK - like roughly 15 read errors in around 1500 records). I hope to annouce a vast trove of stuff soon from my tapes (once I figure out how to interpret the bits - they are written by a sui generis application called 'saveRVD', and the _only_ documentation of how it did it is... on that tape! :-) That includes a lot of code written at MIT, as well as stuff from elsewhere. Coming soon, in addition to that EMACS, should be BCPL, Algol, LISP and some other languages; MACRO-11 and the DEC linker (which I guess are also available from UNSW tapes), but _also_ programs to convert back and forth from .REL to a.out format, and to .LDA format; and a whole ton of other applications (I have no idea what all is there - if anyone is interested, I can make a pass through my manuals and try and make a list). Noel From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Dec 1 07:10:16 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 08:10:16 -0500 Subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?] In-Reply-To: <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> References: <54781BCC.9060306@sydex.com> <5478D70F.9040909@sydex.com> <011817AC-EF6C-43AB-9D45-B6F61CFE5D36@mainecoon.com> <547B992D.7050502@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141201131016.GR31120@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Jon Elson [141130 17:24]: > On 11/30/2014 11:54 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > My suspicion is that this is actually in the same category > > as the control lock that?s supposed to deter children; > > being the US this smells like someone came up with a novel > > product liability theory and someone decide to drop a few > > extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate > > legal types. > Yes, and if left to reach completion, they will have you > buying all your pots > and pans with serial numbers that match the stove. All > others will be > refused. Oh, maybe that is only for printer cartridges. > > Jon But if it saves only one child... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 08:02:17 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 08:02:17 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <547B908D.3070400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547C74E9.90809@gmail.com> On 11/30/2014 11:53 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> On 11/30/2014 12:51 AM, tony duell wrote: >>> It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it up. >>> If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to a connector >>> on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it >>> easier to so this. >> >> I think I've seen four of the machines in total; every single one of them >> had suffered significant corrosion to the main PCB beneath because of the >> batteries. > > The main problem in my experience is corrosion of the (tin plated) Molex > KK connector between the power control/battery PCB and the motherboard > This carries the system power (!) and corrosion leads to all sorts of problems > due to the fact that the 5V line is anything but. Yes, I seem to recall that those were bad - but the corrosion had spread quite far around the connectors. :-( >> That particular system has an ISA serial board and some flavour of ISA >> video board (whatever the latter is, it has 8x 41264 dual-port RAM chips, >> and there's a 20-way ribbon cable attached which runs off somewhere beneath >> the ISA adapter board). Unfortunately the machine - like the MG-1's - had >> also suffered significant corrosion. > > I wonder if that's the colour video output card. Does this CG200 have the normal > MG1 motherboard in it? I seem to remember a connector on the motherboard > that carried at least the video timing signals. Unfortunately I don't seem to have any MG-1 photos here to compare it against, and it's been 7 years since I've seen one. In the CG-200 the memory boards sit along the left-hand edge of the system, and I think that is true of the MG-1, but four of the primary nsxxxxx ICs live on a little plug-in daughterboard - I have a feeling that wasn't the case with the MG-1 (its primary ICs lived in sockets directly on the motherboard), and hence that it's a different animal. The amount of RAM on the video board is 512KB, I think - which is an odd number; not enough for an 8bpp version of the MG-1's 1024x800 display, and yet rather high for a mono display (I think CRTs in the multi-megapixel range likely existed then for specialist applications where money was no object, but if someone had the cash to burn they'd probably be buying something other than a Whitechapel). Of course maybe it outputs 1024x800 at 4bpp, but I thought that by the mid-80s serious colour-capable hardware was generally outputting 8bpp minimum (and non-palettised outputs were appearing on the scene). While I can see a 6845 IC on the board in my photo, I can't make out what the other large (28 pin) IC is on the board near to the video connector - I suspect it's a DAC of some kind, but knowing exactly what might be useful. cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 08:31:53 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 09:31:53 -0500 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <932B0350-82A4-4607-9CA4-A8E64D4164A1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <20141130051301.821A52073C28@huey.classiccmp.org> <873B8F54-073D-4BEB-BA1C-49468499DEC8@cs.ubc.ca> <547B77D0.2080209@snarc.net> <932B0350-82A4-4607-9CA4-A8E64D4164A1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I do wonder about the logistics one would run into doing a machine the size of the ENIAC. Maybe there's more NOS stuff out there than I realise, but sourcing 18000 tubes and associated components is different than a few hundred. Granted, you don't have to build out the full complement of accumulators. Building a complete ENIAC replica would indeed be hard. If only exact proper NOS parts were used, I might just say impossible. As always, it seems, one can blame the capacitors. Even the micas from the 1940s - and I mean the good mil spec ones - are starting to fail in large numbers. I am not sure what ENIAC actually used (my guess is a mixture of papers and micas), but I might thick modern types stuffed into vintage cases would be the only reasonable route. Getting NOS paper and micas from the era is not hard, but they are at best only a step or two away from the trash can. The tubes might not be too bad to source, if the project could stand using used, tested pulls. I do not think any of the tube types in ENIAC are rare types (if someone out there has a list of the 20 or so types they used, please post it), regardless of what the audiophiles think. I might even think that I could even source a majority percentage out of my stock. Original wire would be hard to stock in such quantity, but there are some vintage reproductions that could be obtained. Sockets, resistors, connectors - not much of a problem, given time. Finding original relays might be very difficult to find in NOS, or even good, used condition. I do not know what type ENIAC used, but finding exact vintage replacement relays for any project can be a hair pulling experience. If the relays needed are "telephone" types, that would be a plus, as modifications could be made due to their modular nature. I would not want to be the guy in charge of that project. Transformers - that may be where all the money goes. Once again, I am not sure what they used, but big plate and filament transformers are getting quite pricey. I suppose there may be luck involved if the ENIAC used massive transformers for the plate voltages for the thousands of tubes, as the audiophiles would have no need for those, but if used off the shelf 100 or 200 Watt or so - ouch. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 1 08:52:31 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 08:52:31 -0600 Subject: HP owners - BOUNTY Message-ID: <002e01d00d76$701598f0$5040cad0$@classiccmp.org> Reposting, I'm a little worried these do not exist anymore. I've already tried every reseller on the planet. Generous Bounty for any of the following: HP 12920B Asynchronous Multiplexer : 12920-60001 Upper Select Code Data Board 12920-60002 Lower Select Code Data Board 12922-60001 Control Board Or HP 12920A Asynchronous Multiplexer: 12921-60001 Upper Select Code Data Board 12921-60002 Lower Select Code Data Board 12922-60001 Control Board Even single boards of any of the above would be a big help. Best, J From isking at uw.edu Mon Dec 1 08:44:38 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:44:38 -0800 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141201125235.A296318C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141201125235.A296318C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I didn't know there was an Emacs for PDP-11, and I've looked. Good news! And running on v6? Even better. Yet another reason for me to fix that RK05 on my 11/34 and get it running again. On Dec 1, 2014 4:53 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > >> Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > >> Yeah, but troff is too hard. > > I'm going to pass over the obvious question ('why would anybody be doing > word > processing on a PDP-11 in this day and age' :-), and ask if nroff is also > too > hard? Since it's only intended for character devices (line printers, etc) > it's not quite as complex as troff.a > > I'm not sure if Bell had anything simpler; I'll have to look at my V6 Unix > manual set. > > > From: Ian S. King > > > But ... Emacs (originally EMACS, "eight megabytes and continuously > > swapping") .. is ever going to run on a PDP-11. > > If you restrict yourself to GNU Emacs, yes. But there are more > implementations > of EMACS in the world than that bloated monstrosity! > > We ran an EMACS on V6 Unix at MIT, I forget who wrote it, I think it was > someone at BBN; it was quite a nice one. It was quite customizable (but > that > have only been key bindings and settings, not sure if it included code), > and > it had all the usual features: multiple buffers and windows, etc. (In fact, > it was so painful to use on a VT52, with its small screen, that I migrated > to > a Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal, with its much large screen, as soon as it > became available.) > > > I have several sets of backup tapes from one of the V6 machines at MIT; I > sent one off to Chuck Guzis, and he's gotten almost all the bits off of it > (a > few records had unrecoverable read errors, but the vast majority were OK - > like roughly 15 read errors in around 1500 records). > > I hope to annouce a vast trove of stuff soon from my tapes (once I figure > out > how to interpret the bits - they are written by a sui generis application > called 'saveRVD', and the _only_ documentation of how it did it is... on > that > tape! :-) That includes a lot of code written at MIT, as well as stuff from > elsewhere. > > Coming soon, in addition to that EMACS, should be BCPL, Algol, LISP and > some > other languages; MACRO-11 and the DEC linker (which I guess are also > available from UNSW tapes), but _also_ programs to convert back and forth > from .REL to a.out format, and to .LDA format; and a whole ton of other > applications (I have no idea what all is there - if anyone is interested, I > can make a pass through my manuals and try and make a list). > > Noel > From rickb at bensene.com Mon Dec 1 08:58:07 2014 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 06:58:07 -0800 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> , <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> Message-ID: Steve Jones wrote: > Tektronix delivered a couple models of UTek workstations. Yes, the first machine, whose designation I cannot recall at the moment, was 32032 based, and was a desk-side unit, quite large. The UTek OS was based on 4.2bsd, though there were definitely some Tek-specific modifications. A quite complex graphics processor was available for the machine. It was quite capable for its time. However, Tektronix didn't really know how to market and sell computers (after all, they were a Test & Measurement company), and sales were less than stellar. Despite this rather lousy sales of the big machine, a smaller line of 32016-based machines were made. The first was the 6130. It was about the size of an original IBM PC, and had 3 dual-wide or 6 single-wide expansion slots, which could be mixed and matched with peripheral and memory cards. The machine came with a 30MB (IIRC) Micropolis 5 1/4" hard disk (ST-506), and a Wangtek 1/4" cartridge tape drive (DC-300) and a 5 1/4" double density half-height floppy disc drive. I think memory maxed out at 4MB. The machines made a great little desktop Unix machine hooked up to a CRT terminal. I bought all the parts to build one from Tektronix engineering stock back in the day (Tek employees got cost+10% for any parts Tek stocked), and put a complete system together. Great fun, and it worked straight away. The CPU board (single board) was purchased completely assembled, so that made things a lot easier. The next was the 4132. It was very similar to the 6130, but it changed from ST-506-style disk drive to a SCSI disk drive, and had a SCSI connector on the back panel of the CPU for adding external drives. It also had a built-in IEEE-488 interface, and was really designed to be an instrument controller, which Tek was pretty good at, and could sell the machine as such. I ended up buying one of these at the Tektronix Country Store for something like $30 when the line was canceled and a bunch showed up at a "Fire Sale". It was a bit faster than the 6130, partly because of faster disk I/O, and also I think that the 32016 CPU was a faster-clocked version. At this point, denying the fact that Tek didn't really know how to sell computers very well (despite the successes with the 4051/4052/4054), they dumped the NS processors, and went with the Motorola processors for a line of machines, that were desktop form-factor (a little larger, though), and had built-in graphics. Pretty nice, and were much faster than the NS-based machines. However, again, not much market success. Lastly, they dumped the NS processors, and went with the Motoroal 88K CPU for a line of XD88 "superworkstations". They were fast, and had pretty amazing graphics capabilities, but alas, the company never really figured out how to sell computers as computers/workstations, and eventually the development group was disbanded, and that ended Tek's foray into Unix workstations. While on the subject, a plea -- if anyone out there has floppy images for the standalone boot and an image of the DC300 UTek installation tapes for the 4132, I'd love to get my hands on them. I still have the 4132, but no media -- the original floppies were low-quality, and are unreadable today, and the installation tapes that I have don't seem to want to read either, likely due to print-through from sitting for so very long (since like, oh, 1987 or so). I'd love to get this beast running again. Stupidly, I never imaged them back in the day. -Rick Bensene From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 1 09:02:08 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 16:02:08 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <20141201125235.A296318C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547C82F0.6060505@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-01 15:44, Ian S. King wrote: > I didn't know there was an Emacs for PDP-11, and I've looked. Good news! > And running on v6? Even better. Yet another reason for me to fix that > RK05 on my 11/34 and get it running again. Depends on your definition of Emacs... You definitely have JOVE, which is pretty decent. And MicroEMACS. And there was/is AMIS for RSTS/E. And I'm sure a few others... I know I've written a kind of Emacs for TECO on a PDP-8. That should work on a PDP-11 as well... Johnny > On Dec 1, 2014 4:53 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > >> >> Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> >> >> Yeah, but troff is too hard. >> >> I'm going to pass over the obvious question ('why would anybody be doing >> word >> processing on a PDP-11 in this day and age' :-), and ask if nroff is also >> too >> hard? Since it's only intended for character devices (line printers, etc) >> it's not quite as complex as troff.a >> >> I'm not sure if Bell had anything simpler; I'll have to look at my V6 Unix >> manual set. >> >> > From: Ian S. King >> >> > But ... Emacs (originally EMACS, "eight megabytes and continuously >> > swapping") .. is ever going to run on a PDP-11. >> >> If you restrict yourself to GNU Emacs, yes. But there are more >> implementations >> of EMACS in the world than that bloated monstrosity! >> >> We ran an EMACS on V6 Unix at MIT, I forget who wrote it, I think it was >> someone at BBN; it was quite a nice one. It was quite customizable (but >> that >> have only been key bindings and settings, not sure if it included code), >> and >> it had all the usual features: multiple buffers and windows, etc. (In fact, >> it was so painful to use on a VT52, with its small screen, that I migrated >> to >> a Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal, with its much large screen, as soon as it >> became available.) >> >> >> I have several sets of backup tapes from one of the V6 machines at MIT; I >> sent one off to Chuck Guzis, and he's gotten almost all the bits off of it >> (a >> few records had unrecoverable read errors, but the vast majority were OK - >> like roughly 15 read errors in around 1500 records). >> >> I hope to annouce a vast trove of stuff soon from my tapes (once I figure >> out >> how to interpret the bits - they are written by a sui generis application >> called 'saveRVD', and the _only_ documentation of how it did it is... on >> that >> tape! :-) That includes a lot of code written at MIT, as well as stuff from >> elsewhere. >> >> Coming soon, in addition to that EMACS, should be BCPL, Algol, LISP and >> some >> other languages; MACRO-11 and the DEC linker (which I guess are also >> available from UNSW tapes), but _also_ programs to convert back and forth >> from .REL to a.out format, and to .LDA format; and a whole ton of other >> applications (I have no idea what all is there - if anyone is interested, I >> can make a pass through my manuals and try and make a list). >> >> Noel >> From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 09:03:34 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 10:03:34 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <20141201125235.A296318C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: OK, to clear up my goals here: I just got my Diablo 630 running and would like to couple it to one of my pdp11s and an appropriate terminal to do more "inspired" writing and correspondence. I don't mean to complain, but I sometimes get bored typing on these relatively snazzy computers we have these days and wish to go back to the way things were. So if there's some reasonable software that'll keep out of my way enough to allow the creative juices to flow and that'll run natively on my 11/34 or my (currently broken) 11/73, that'd be fabulous. If I cant have all that, I'd at least like to get the printer working with my 11/73 accepting lpd jobs so I can send stuff to it over the network and enjoy the thing doing real world work in a contemporarily-configured fashion. Failing that, I suppose I could drive it with my Raspberry Pi. But then most of the vintage voyeurism is lost. I know that "Jonathan's Own Version of Emacs" is on some of the 2.x distributions, and if there's some creative writing / composition mode I could get it into, that'd probably suffice, but I wanted to also try and be open-minded; to be less unix-centric and accept that there might be other word processing software out there on other pdp11 operating systems I could use. I guess the bottom line is that I have all this neat old stuff and I want to actually use it; not just sit on it. thx for the input! jake On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > I didn't know there was an Emacs for PDP-11, and I've looked. Good news! > And running on v6? Even better. Yet another reason for me to fix that > RK05 on my 11/34 and get it running again. > On Dec 1, 2014 4:53 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > >> Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > > > >> Yeah, but troff is too hard. > > > > I'm going to pass over the obvious question ('why would anybody be doing > > word > > processing on a PDP-11 in this day and age' :-), and ask if nroff is also > > too > > hard? Since it's only intended for character devices (line printers, etc) > > it's not quite as complex as troff.a > > > > I'm not sure if Bell had anything simpler; I'll have to look at my V6 > Unix > > manual set. > > > > > From: Ian S. King > > > > > But ... Emacs (originally EMACS, "eight megabytes and continuously > > > swapping") .. is ever going to run on a PDP-11. > > > > If you restrict yourself to GNU Emacs, yes. But there are more > > implementations > > of EMACS in the world than that bloated monstrosity! > > > > We ran an EMACS on V6 Unix at MIT, I forget who wrote it, I think it was > > someone at BBN; it was quite a nice one. It was quite customizable (but > > that > > have only been key bindings and settings, not sure if it included code), > > and > > it had all the usual features: multiple buffers and windows, etc. (In > fact, > > it was so painful to use on a VT52, with its small screen, that I > migrated > > to > > a Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal, with its much large screen, as soon as > it > > became available.) > > > > > > I have several sets of backup tapes from one of the V6 machines at MIT; I > > sent one off to Chuck Guzis, and he's gotten almost all the bits off of > it > > (a > > few records had unrecoverable read errors, but the vast majority were OK > - > > like roughly 15 read errors in around 1500 records). > > > > I hope to annouce a vast trove of stuff soon from my tapes (once I figure > > out > > how to interpret the bits - they are written by a sui generis application > > called 'saveRVD', and the _only_ documentation of how it did it is... on > > that > > tape! :-) That includes a lot of code written at MIT, as well as stuff > from > > elsewhere. > > > > Coming soon, in addition to that EMACS, should be BCPL, Algol, LISP and > > some > > other languages; MACRO-11 and the DEC linker (which I guess are also > > available from UNSW tapes), but _also_ programs to convert back and forth > > from .REL to a.out format, and to .LDA format; and a whole ton of other > > applications (I have no idea what all is there - if anyone is > interested, I > > can make a pass through my manuals and try and make a list). > > > > Noel > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 09:32:39 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 08:32:39 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> Message-ID: Steve Jones wrote: > Tektronix delivered a couple models of UTek workstations. On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Yes, the first machine, whose designation I cannot recall at the moment, > was 32032 based, and was a desk-side unit, quite large. The UTek OS > was based on 4.2bsd, though there were definitely some Tek-specific > modifications. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was pretty sure that the first UTek machine was the 4404 "Artificial Intelligence Workstation", introduced in 1974. The 4404 was MC68010 based, had a custom-designed MMU, and had a 640x480 13-inch onochrome bitmap display. There were memory expansion and Ethernet options. It was intended to ran Smalltalk-80 on UTek 1, which was *not* BSD-based, but was based on a third-party Unix clone, though I don't recall which one. Internally Tek had started from a PDP-11 Unix, and at one point planned to use OS9/68000, but that's not what was shipped with the 4404. The 4404 was followed in 1985 by the 4405 and 4406, which were MC68020 based, had more memory and an MC68881 floating-point coprocessor. The 4405 had the same display as the 4404, while the 4406 had a 19-inch 1280x1024 monochrome display. At some point they switched to BSD for UTek 2 on the 440x. After that they started doing NS32K stuff. They also offered Franz LISP, Common LISP, and MPROLOG. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 09:32:49 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 10:32:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: EDSAC lives Message-ID: <20141201153249.8FDD518C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli > Building a complete ENIAC replica would indeed be hard. If only exact > proper NOS parts were used, I might just say impossible. One other component I didn't see listed: rotary switches. ENIAC used tons of them, originally for inputting static data (think ROM :-), and later to hold tables used when they converted it to a sorta-stored-program machine (think uROM :-). And what about the special plug wires (and the male and female connectors used thereon) which were used to 'program' the machine for a given problem - are those still available? Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Dec 1 09:46:29 2014 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 16:46:29 +0100 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> Message-ID: <547C8D55.7050603@e-bbes.com> On 2014-12-01 16:32, Eric Smith wrote: > Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was pretty sure that the first UTek machine was > the 4404 "Artificial Intelligence Workstation", introduced in 1974. The 4404 was > MC68010 based, had a custom-designed MMU, and had a 640x480 13-inch > onochrome bitmap display. There were memory expansion and Ethernet options. 1984? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 09:57:28 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 10:57:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: <20141201155728.D5B3818C12A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jacob Ritorto > I just got my Diablo 630 running and would like to couple it to one of > my pdp11s and an appropriate terminal to do more "inspired" writing and > correspondence. .. I sometimes get bored typing on these relatively > snazzy computers we have these days and wish to go back to the way > things were. Ah, got it. I don't know if (on the Unix path) nroff is any good for you; with a good macro package (pretty much essential; raw roff/troff is kind of like raw TEX), it's pretty easy to use. The thing is that 'back in the day', the whole 'WYSIWYG' editing model didn't exist until Bravo on the Alto. (At least, not that I know of - if anyone does know of such, I would love to hear of it.) Except for plain ASCII files, of course... So I'm not sure that if you're looking for 'text mode WYSIWYG', you'll be able to find much. > From: Warner Losh > There was also a TECO version available for the PDP-11's running RSTS/E > (and likely others) There was a 'visual TECO' running on the V6 Unix at MIT; that's what we used before the EMACS came along. I don't know the background of it, if it shares any history with the one you mentioned. >From the (slim) manual I have for it, it seems to have had both TECO mode (the usual TECO command interface, the stuff that looks like line noise), and a visual mode, just like primitive EMACS. (Probably only supported VT52's, though.) The latter mode had some built-in command keys, and there were also macro packages to extend it (again, just like primitive EMACS, although those for the PDP-11 Unix TECO were not as sophisticated). That's all almost certainly on the tape too, if anyone cares! :-) Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 10:05:53 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 11:05:53 -0500 Subject: EDSAC lives In-Reply-To: <20141201153249.8FDD518C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141201153249.8FDD518C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > One other component I didn't see listed: rotary switches. ENIAC used tons of > them, originally for inputting static data (think ROM :-), and later to hold > tables used when they converted it to a sorta-stored-program machine (think > uROM :-). Providing they are not something bizarre - completely available. Most of those rotary switches are modular (they can be bought as parts), so the exact switch can be reproduced. > And what about the special plug wires (and the male and female connectors used > thereon) which were used to 'program' the machine for a given problem - are > those still available? Probably. Most vintage connectors, in general, are still available. If I could see a picture of what the connectors on ENIAC look like, I could tell you. I seem to remember them being pretty standard Cinch Jones parts. -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 10:54:40 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 09:54:40 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547C8D55.7050603@e-bbes.com> References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1054E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547B9BF0.7020802@pico-systems.com> <547BA841.6030801@sydex.com> <547BBC3A.1090902@gmail.com> <547BC2B7.2090604@sydex.com> <547C04D4.7060600@crash.com> <547C8D55.7050603@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:46 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > 1984? Yes, thanks. Typo. I was definitely thinking 1984, and my fingers apparently weren't cooperating. From chrise at pobox.com Mon Dec 1 11:02:54 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 11:02:54 -0600 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (11/30/2014 at 12:28PM -0800), Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked this up for nearly nothing at a local recycler, it was too cute to > pass up. It's a 3M "WhisperPrinter" (model 1904AA), and it's a small (40 > column, 4.5" wide) thermal printer with a serial interface. It appears to > work (runs a self-test if you hold the line feed button while powering on) > but I don't know what the pinout for the interface on the rear is (it's a > 20-pin header). > > This looks to be a rebadged Trendcom 100 (which I can also find very little > technical info about) used on a number of early home computers (Atari, > TRS-80, PET). Anyone happen to have a manual for this? I'm not sure if you included an image or link to one. Didn't get one here. I am familiar with a 3M Whisper Writer, which was a complete portable terminal system including a printer as you describe, a keyboard unit and an acoustic coupled modem. Is it like this? http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102638269 And these are the other pieces, http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102638268 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102638267 3M built these themselves. I had one as a kid. My dad worked for 3M and this ensured an endless supply of thermal paper and is also why I still have half a dozen TI Silent 700 terminals as well ;-) Nowdays, you can buy "thermal fax" paper at office supply stores and it will work in the TI printers. Unfortunately, it's 8.5" wide so you would need to modify the roll for the Whisper Writer. Maybe there is a version of thermal cash register paper that will fit?? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 1 11:29:09 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 11:29:09 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did get the job done. It ran a lot better, of course, on a VAX. Word processing doesn't get any better than TeX, I still use it under Linux. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 1 11:29:09 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 11:29:09 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did get the job done. It ran a lot better, of course, on a VAX. Word processing doesn't get any better than TeX, I still use it under Linux. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 1 11:31:25 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 11:31:25 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547CA5ED.6090104@pico-systems.com> On 11/30/2014 08:09 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Yeah, but troff is too hard. I need something at least like emacs. Or > preferably like wordstar. Guess I need to check out this LEX-11. > Of COURSE, emacs was available on many PDP-11 OS's. Maybe not from DEC, but most certainly on the DECUS tapes, there were all sorts of variants, updates, extensions, and so on. Certainly available for RSX, and probably needs a good deal of memory. Not so sure on some of the other OS's. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 11:32:08 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 12:32:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 Message-ID: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven M Jones > only to be pummeled by the emerging RISC designs... My (dim) recollection of the NS32K architecture (I recall someone came to MIT and gave a presentation on it, and I have an early architecture document - so old that it's called the NS16K!) was that it was very elegant, but my sense now, looking back, was that it was one of that wave of machines (the VAX being the other notable one) that went down the CISC road just before RISC arrived, and showed that CISC was not really the way to go; those systems were all dinosaurs. Which, in the NS16K/NS32K's case was unfortunate, because the architecture in other ways, i.e. at a high level (i.e. ignoring the instructions), was the best of the whole lot. Notably, it attempted to provide real segmentation support, perhaps the only chip of that group to do so. Although of course once Unix took over the world, that was irrelevant. (Much as I dearly love(d) V6 for how it got an incredible amount of power out of a very small machine, it's pretty clear that the basic approach of Unix was inferior to that of the single level store systems [e.g. Multics]; Unix really was - and in many ways remains - a toy operating system, considered from a larger viewpoint.) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 11:44:26 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 12:44:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 Message-ID: <20141201174426.9BF9718C123@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Eric Smith spacewar at gmail.com > Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was pretty sure that the first UTek machine > was the 4404 "Artificial Intelligence Workstation", introduced in 1974. > The 4404 was MC68010 based There's also the TI Explorer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI_Explorer a LISP machine (custom CPU); not sure of the exact date, but it was around then. Noel From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Mon Dec 1 11:47:20 2014 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 09:47:20 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1, PDP-11/84 potentially available in Oregon Message-ID: <091C58D3-8267-438D-8275-36496507D765@kd7bcy.com> I'm looking at clearing out my basement a little as my old computer interests and space requirements change and am considering getting rid of part or all of my Series/1 system. It has never been operational while I have had it, and was originally wired up for 240v operation - although the CPU and small tape drive were re-configurable to 120v by a jumper, and I did power them up together shortly after obtaining the system, but didn't have any OS or software to run on it. I have one IBM rack, which I am willing to part with if the whole system is going, otherwise all my network gear and newer servers are going into it(it's only 6' tall so it fits well in my basement. I have a 4967-K00 CPU, a 4968 tape drive, an unknown model Cipher tape drive(very large), one or two 4959 expansion units, maybe a broken 8" floppy drive if I still have it. I also have two terminals and a lot of cabling for them in unknown but presumably poor condition, currently coiled up in the back of the basement on the floor. I should also still have a decent pile of expansion cards, most of them communications, some of them disk controllers. And hopefully enough interconnect cabling to be useful. Now for the really ugly part - I do indeed have some binders with information on some of the units, and probably some stuff that isn't there, but we had a water leak a while back and some of it was water damaged. I put them aside but never had time to attempt anything with them. I do have a picture of part of the system and the rack... The Cipher is sitting under the 1U server at the bottom of the pic. And one of the terminals with keyboard is visible sitting on top of the PDP-11/84. They've both been buried in the basement behind storage boxes for a while. http://www.kd7bcy.com/images/comp/oldracks.jpg On a side note, the PDP-11/84 may also be available soon. It's pretty bare bones and will likely need at a minimum a disk drive and controller. I used to have a list of the cards that were installed but I can't find it right now. I have a disk drive of some kind in the garage currently, I think it's an 8" floppy drive but I haven't looked at it closely, and it is in poor shape. The CPU rack in the basement is decent, just a broken spot weld on the door hinge which makes it hang loosely. Similar story to the Series/1 - never got it operational, but it was powered on long ago when I obtained them during initial investigations and testing. Other than the drive that I picked up at a local surplus store I have nothing that goes with this, maybe an old DEC paperback book of some kind if I can find it. I'm tempted to put it on eBay after seeing the price the last one sold for, but would be happy to entertain offers from this group first(interesting trades are always welcome). I should have some random DEC boards of some kind laying around as well. I know I've posted about both of these systems in the past on this list, over a decade ago. I was hoping to get this one up and running in a meaningful way but just never had the time or money to put into it. The IBM is pretty much free to anyone who wants it, picked up at my house in Portland, Oregon, USA. Time frame is pretty loose, it's not like I need these out immediately, and it will probably take a couple of weeks to round everything up on weekends and get the cobwebs cleaned up, but I won't be sitting on these a terribly long time either. I imagine I will probably start dumping unwanted stuff by other means by late February. Parts are spread all over the place, so it may take a weekend or two to get everything together and moved up to the garage for pickup. I kinda like the rack, so if you don't need it I can keep it, or if you have a spare rack 38U or shorter to swap that would be great. If no one wants it, I will likely keep the CPU and tape drive in the rack and scrap the rest of it. The Cipher looked pretty generic, it may be able to hook up to other systems. If no interest in the whole package or it is unwanted I will make it available separately. If there is interest in one or more systems I will begin moving things to the garage and making a more accurate catalog of what is actually present and a better idea of the current condition of individual pieces. A bit of a wall of randomly wandering text, but there it is. Cleaning out the basement can be such a tedious job! tl;dr - PDP-11/84 and IBM Series/1 available in Portland, Oregon, local pickup required. ------------ John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net ------------ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 11:52:08 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 12:52:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Problem with DEC LSI11 / KD11-F Message-ID: <20141201175208.3C35318C123@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I checked all three M7270 modules I have here. ... I have, Rev. E, Rev. > H and Rev. K > ... All has date codes in the range 77-80. I expect your boards to be > later revisions. No (I think); mine are both K, too. One says "130 K" (that's the one with the slightly earlier chips); the other says "140 K". Anyone know what the numbers mean? Noel From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 12:36:43 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 13:36:43 -0500 Subject: IBM Series/1, PDP-11/84 potentially available in Oregon In-Reply-To: <091C58D3-8267-438D-8275-36496507D765@kd7bcy.com> References: <091C58D3-8267-438D-8275-36496507D765@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: Hey John.. I'm interested in the 11/84 if it goes; have nineties Macs and Suns and possibly some other pdp11 ephemera as well that I could offer as trade. I don't wish to be a hog, though, as I do have other elevens. Let's talk off-list when/if you're ready -- I'm open to the fact that there may be more suitable homes for the machine. I'm in western Pennsylvania, but I travel to southern Oregon a few times a year. thx --jake On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:47 PM, John Rollins wrote: > I'm looking at clearing out my basement a little as my old computer > interests and space requirements change and am considering getting rid of > part or all of my Series/1 system. It has never been operational while I > have had it, and was originally wired up for 240v operation - although the > CPU and small tape drive were re-configurable to 120v by a jumper, and I > did power them up together shortly after obtaining the system, but didn't > have any OS or software to run on it. > I have one IBM rack, which I am willing to part with if the whole system > is going, otherwise all my network gear and newer servers are going into > it(it's only 6' tall so it fits well in my basement. I have a 4967-K00 CPU, > a 4968 tape drive, an unknown model Cipher tape drive(very large), one or > two 4959 expansion units, maybe a broken 8" floppy drive if I still have > it. I also have two terminals and a lot of cabling for them in unknown but > presumably poor condition, currently coiled up in the back of the basement > on the floor. I should also still have a decent pile of expansion cards, > most of them communications, some of them disk controllers. And hopefully > enough interconnect cabling to be useful. > Now for the really ugly part - I do indeed have some binders with > information on some of the units, and probably some stuff that isn't there, > but we had a water leak a while back and some of it was water damaged. I > put them aside but never had time to attempt anything with them. > > I do have a picture of part of the system and the rack... The Cipher is > sitting under the 1U server at the bottom of the pic. And one of the > terminals with keyboard is visible sitting on top of the PDP-11/84. They've > both been buried in the basement behind storage boxes for a while. > http://www.kd7bcy.com/images/comp/oldracks.jpg > > On a side note, the PDP-11/84 may also be available soon. It's pretty bare > bones and will likely need at a minimum a disk drive and controller. I used > to have a list of the cards that were installed but I can't find it right > now. I have a disk drive of some kind in the garage currently, I think it's > an 8" floppy drive but I haven't looked at it closely, and it is in poor > shape. The CPU rack in the basement is decent, just a broken spot weld on > the door hinge which makes it hang loosely. Similar story to the Series/1 - > never got it operational, but it was powered on long ago when I obtained > them during initial investigations and testing. Other than the drive that I > picked up at a local surplus store I have nothing that goes with this, > maybe an old DEC paperback book of some kind if I can find it. I'm tempted > to put it on eBay after seeing the price the last one sold for, but would > be happy to entertain offers from this group first(interesting trades are > always welcome). I should have some random DEC boards of some kind laying > around as well. I know I've posted about both of these systems in the past > on this list, over a decade ago. I was hoping to get this one up and > running in a meaningful way but just never had the time or money to put > into it. > > The IBM is pretty much free to anyone who wants it, picked up at my house > in Portland, Oregon, USA. Time frame is pretty loose, it's not like I need > these out immediately, and it will probably take a couple of weeks to round > everything up on weekends and get the cobwebs cleaned up, but I won't be > sitting on these a terribly long time either. I imagine I will probably > start dumping unwanted stuff by other means by late February. > Parts are spread all over the place, so it may take a weekend or two to > get everything together and moved up to the garage for pickup. I kinda like > the rack, so if you don't need it I can keep it, or if you have a spare > rack 38U or shorter to swap that would be great. If no one wants it, I will > likely keep the CPU and tape drive in the rack and scrap the rest of it. > The Cipher looked pretty generic, it may be able to hook up to other > systems. If no interest in the whole package or it is unwanted I will make > it available separately. > > If there is interest in one or more systems I will begin moving things to > the garage and making a more accurate catalog of what is actually present > and a better idea of the current condition of individual pieces. > > A bit of a wall of randomly wandering text, but there it is. Cleaning out > the basement can be such a tedious job! tl;dr - PDP-11/84 and IBM Series/1 > available in Portland, Oregon, local pickup required. > > > ------------ > John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com > Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net > ------------ > > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Dec 1 12:31:43 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 18:31:43 +0000 (WET) Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:28:05 -0800" <61D8C048-9B50-4A26-8F25-9C0357CF38C4@fozztexx.com> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <01PFM1573TO4004QJV@beyondthepale.ie> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:28:05 -0800 Chris Osborn wrote: > >On Nov 24, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> Me too. I tried unsubbing from cctech and was told I wasn't >> subscribed. So I've just left it, figuring Jay has bigger fish to fry >> for the moment - if it really bugged me I'd procmail the cctech copy to >> /dev/null. If it's still going on whenever it seems to me it's worth >> mentioning again (a month? two?), I may see if Jay has the spare cycles >> then to deal with it. > >I?ve been getting the duplicates too and also haven?t said anything for the >same reasons. I did check the ?List-" headers to see if I was getting a copy >from cctech, but it?s not coming from there. I suspect what?s happening is >the cctech is forwarding to cctalk, or has cctalk as a subscriber, and the >cctalk list is not checking or storing the Message-ID to prevent duplicate >messages. > >Like you, I?m not an expert on mailman. The last time I ran a mailing list >I used procmail?s SmartList. > I am still getting duplicate mails. To recap, I am subscribed to cctech and one copy of each duplicate is arriving with a cctech From: address and the second copy is arriving with a cctalk From: address. I have tried to unsubscribe from cctalk but I never receive the email asking me to confirm I wish to unsubscribe, suggesting that I am not subscribed to cctalk. There have only been a few responses to this thread so it appears that either: 1) There are very few people experiencing this problem. or 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and very few find it a problem. or 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and there are very few people subscribed to cctech! It doesn't look like this is going to be fixed quickly so I decided it's time to do something before talk of cooking the Thanksgiving turkey turns to talk of cooking the Christmas turkey. I decided that if I unsubscribe from cctech and subscribe to cctalk, even though I will still get the off-topic stuff, I should get a lot less mail because the on-topic stuff should only arrive once, which is definately an improvement and will do for now. In case I might miss anything important, like someone offering a free IBM 3420 on my doorstep, I decided to subscribe to cctalk first, wait until I start getting three copies of everything and then unsubscribe from cctech. So, I subscribed to cctalk (with the same address I use for cctech which on reflection may not have been a good idea), replied to the confirmation email and then received the "Welcome to cctalk" email. However, I have not started getting three copies of anything. Everything is very much as before, one copy from from cctalk and usually another some time later from cctech, presumably after moderator approval. I thought I was on to something when one message arrived twice from cctalk and twice more from cctech but then I found that it appears to have been sent to: On-Topic Posts , General at classiccmp.org, and Off-Topic Posts so it's arrival here four times is consistent with previous behaviour. So what next? I get the feeling that if I unsubscribe from cctech, I will stop receiving anything at all and if I unsubscribe from cctalk, nothing will happen. Any suggestions? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pinball at telus.net Mon Dec 1 13:42:05 2014 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 11:42:05 -0800 Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] In-Reply-To: <01PFM1573TO4004QJV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PFM1573TO4004QJV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <547CC48D.7030600@telus.net> On 12/01/2014, 10:31 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:28:05 -0800 Chris Osborn wrote: > >> On Nov 24, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >>> Me too. I tried unsubbing from cctech and was told I wasn't >>> subscribed. So I've just left it, figuring Jay has bigger fish to fry >>> for the moment - if it really bugged me I'd procmail the cctech copy to >>> /dev/null. If it's still going on whenever it seems to me it's worth >>> mentioning again (a month? two?), I may see if Jay has the spare cycles >>> then to deal with it. >> I?ve been getting the duplicates too and also haven?t said anything for the >> same reasons. I did check the ?List-" headers to see if I was getting a copy > >from cctech, but it?s not coming from there. I suspect what?s happening is >> the cctech is forwarding to cctalk, or has cctalk as a subscriber, and the >> cctalk list is not checking or storing the Message-ID to prevent duplicate >> messages. >> >> Like you, I?m not an expert on mailman. The last time I ran a mailing list >> I used procmail?s SmartList. >> > I am still getting duplicate mails. To recap, I am subscribed to cctech and > one copy of each duplicate is arriving with a cctech From: address and the > second copy is arriving with a cctalk From: address. I have tried to > unsubscribe from cctalk but I never receive the email asking me to confirm > I wish to unsubscribe, suggesting that I am not subscribed to cctalk. > > There have only been a few responses to this thread so it appears that either: > > 1) There are very few people experiencing this problem. > > or > > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and very few find it a problem. > > or > > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and there are very few people > subscribed to cctech! > > It doesn't look like this is going to be fixed quickly so I decided it's time > to do something before talk of cooking the Thanksgiving turkey turns to talk > of cooking the Christmas turkey. I decided that if I unsubscribe from cctech > and subscribe to cctalk, even though I will still get the off-topic stuff, I > should get a lot less mail because the on-topic stuff should only arrive once, > which is definately an improvement and will do for now. > > In case I might miss anything important, like someone offering a free IBM 3420 > on my doorstep, I decided to subscribe to cctalk first, wait until I start > getting three copies of everything and then unsubscribe from cctech. > > So, I subscribed to cctalk (with the same address I use for cctech which on > reflection may not have been a good idea), replied to the confirmation email > and then received the "Welcome to cctalk" email. However, I have not started > getting three copies of anything. Everything is very much as before, one > copy from from cctalk and usually another some time later from cctech, > presumably after moderator approval. > > I thought I was on to something when one message arrived twice from cctalk and > twice more from cctech but then I found that it appears to have been sent to: > > On-Topic Posts , General at classiccmp.org, and Off-Topic > Posts > > so it's arrival here four times is consistent with previous behaviour. > > So what next? I get the feeling that if I unsubscribe from cctech, I will > stop receiving anything at all and if I unsubscribe from cctalk, nothing will > happen. > > Any suggestions? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > Your report matches my situation...I can't unsubscribe though, and - not interested in losing everything - have decided to live with the double posting until the moderator can sort out the problem and make an announcement. John :-#)# From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 14:24:12 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 20:24:12 +0000 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: <20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com>,<20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > > Nowdays, you can buy "thermal fax" paper at office supply stores and > it will work in the TI printers. Unfortunately, it's 8.5" wide so you > would need to modify the roll for the Whisper Writer. Maybe there is > a version of thermal cash register paper that will fit?? I've not seen thermal fax paper in office supply shops over here for about 10 years. Can you still find it in the UK (I've got a few HP thermal printers, including the 9866 on top of my 9830, that use it). Over here there were 2 common widths. 210mm and I think 216mm The latter was the one used in most American printers, the former was much easier to find. I obtained an HP printer (2761 or some such) that was designed to use the wider paper. All I could find in the local shop was the narrower stuff. It would use that provided the roll was in exactly the right place, otherwise the head would go off the edge of the paper and snag on the paper as it came back. So I grabbed some brass rod, cut a couple of thin slices, drilled a centre hole and carefully faced them off to be just the right thickness to put the roll where I needed it. Worked fine and I was happy -- unitl I went to another branch of the same office shop. They had the 216mm rolls. -tony From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Dec 1 14:47:52 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 20:47:52 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1045D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <85ppc37fb2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D12151@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 4:05 AM > On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:57 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> Rich Alderson writes: >>> I worked at XKL for 10 years before coming to my present job 11 >>> years ago. Putting the Toad-1 into an FPGA was an experiment when I >>> left. >> It was? During my stint at XKL, I was told the Toad-1 I was working >> with was an FPGA implementation. Maybe it was an experiment, but it >> seemed to work pretty well. But then, I was a telecommuter, so maybe >> some information was jumbled in long-distance transmission. > You guys probably have more information about this than I do, but my > understanding was that the Toad-1 CPU required multiple FPGAs, CPLDs, > and other logic, while the Toad-2 CPU is a single FPGA. Lars, Eric is correct. The Toad-1 is a multi-board computer system (at minimum, the XKL-1 CPU, one XMG-1 memory, one XNI-1 Ethernet interface, and one XRH-1 SCSI interface, in a 7-slot backplane). Each board used several programmable parts, from Altera and Xilinx. In particular, the CPU was a pair of Xilinx parts for the microcode engine, with an AMD 2900 family sequencer (I forget the particular part number). The Toad-2 (and the 1U rack mount unit is *not* a Toad-2, but it does contain two of them, thus the label) is a single FPGA implementation of the Toad-1 (mutatis mutandis: no SCSI, but it talks to SD cards, for example). Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From chrise at pobox.com Mon Dec 1 15:04:17 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 15:04:17 -0600 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> <20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20141201210416.GZ1273@n0jcf.net> On Monday (12/01/2014 at 08:24PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > I've not seen thermal fax paper in office supply shops over here for > about 10 years. Can you still find it in the UK (I've got a few HP thermal > printers, including the 9866 on top of my 9830, that use it). Over here, I have gotten it from Staples, http://www.staples.com/Staples-reg-Thermal-Fax-Paper-328-roll-x-1-core/product_269563 not usually stocked, so I order it. I use the 328' rolls in the original Silent 700 "suitcase" sized terminals such as model 725. I also use the smaller rolls, 98' with 1/2" core in the newer Silent 700 "briefcase" sized terminals such as model 745. http://www.staples.com/Staples-reg-Thermal-Fax-Paper-98-roll-x-1-2-core/product_269571 > Over here there were 2 common widths. 210mm and I think 216mm > The latter was the one used in most American printers, the former was > much easier to find. I obtained an HP printer (2761 or some such) that > was designed to use the wider paper. All I could find in the local shop > was the narrower stuff. It would use that provided the roll was in > exactly the right place, otherwise the head would go off the edge > of the paper and snag on the paper as it came back. So I > grabbed some brass rod, cut a couple of thin slices, drilled a > centre hole and carefully faced them off to be just the right thickness > to put the roll where I needed it. Worked fine and I was happy -- unitl > I went to another branch of the same office shop. They had the 216mm > rolls. These guys have a lot of sizes, http://www.thermalpaperdirect.com/thermal-paper-rolls.asp?DeptID=27#3 I've never done business with them though. Just found it with a quick Google search. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Dec 1 15:08:59 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 21:08:59 +0000 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547CA5ED.6090104@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA5ED.6090104@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D12185@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jon Elson Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 9:31 AM > Of COURSE, emacs was available on many PDP-11 OS's. Maybe not from > DEC, but most certainly on the DECUS tapes, there were all sorts of > variants, updates, extensions, and so on. Certainly available for > RSX, and probably needs a good deal of memory. Not so sure on some > of the other OS's. EMACS was not available from DEC on any architecture, unless by accident. It was written in the MIT AI Lab's version of PDP-10 TECO, which was ported to TENEX and TOPS-20 (i. e., "Twenex") at the Lab, but not to any other architecture in that form: The first non-PDP-10 port was written in MACLISP for Multics--a 36-bit architecture!--by Bernie Greenberg, which gave lots of people ideas about how to port something like EMACS to other architectures, including Lisp machines. Yes, there were many EMACS-inspired editors for non-PDP-10 systems, but not from DEC. NB: I am still the official maintainer of PDP-10 TECO and EMACS, ever since I posted a Y2K fix for Kent Pitman's TIME library to comp.emacs and the GNU bug groups. At least, that's what RMS said at the time. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 1 15:19:05 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 21:19:05 +0000 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 1 December 2014 at 06:16, tony duell wrote: > > Not sure what makes it an international model, although it does say > 50-60Hz, > > and it does not have a captive power cord, so presumably it is an > > international one. I will have to take a look inside, but I really don't > > have any idea what I would need to do to convert it. > > Nothing specific to the VT3xx > > Normally SMPSUs that can be converted to run off 115V or 230V > mains run the chopper off about 350V DC. The mains input > rectifier circuit is configured to be a simple bridge rectifier > for 230V and a voltage doubler for 115V. The conversion is > nothing more than a link from the neutral side of the mains > to the centre tap of a pair of smoothing capacitors in series > (if you look at the circuit, you end up with 2 diodes that are > redundant, always reverse-biased, in the voltage doubler > circuit, but that is no problem). > > So look for a link on the PSU board in this area. If you are > lucky it will either have 2 positions labelled '115V' and > '230V' (in the latter position it actually does nothing) or > will be marked 'fit for 115V' or something. > > -tony > Thanks for the suggestions from Glen and Tony. I am away from home most of the week, but I will take a look when I get home again at the end of the week. Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 15:58:42 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 21:58:42 -0000 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com>, <20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <01bc01d00db1$f9302980$eb907c80$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 01 December 2014 20:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? > > > > > Nowdays, you can buy "thermal fax" paper at office supply stores and > > it will work in the TI printers. Unfortunately, it's 8.5" wide so you > > would need to modify the roll for the Whisper Writer. Maybe there is > > a version of thermal cash register paper that will fit?? > > I've not seen thermal fax paper in office supply shops over here for about 10 > years. Can you still find it in the UK (I've got a few HP thermal printers, > including the 9866 on top of my 9830, that use it). > > Over here there were 2 common widths. 210mm and I think 216mm The > latter was the one used in most American printers, the former was much > easier to find. I obtained an HP printer (2761 or some such) that was > designed to use the wider paper. All I could find in the local shop was the > narrower stuff. It would use that provided the roll was in exactly the right > place, otherwise the head would go off the edge of the paper and snag on > the paper as it came back. So I grabbed some brass rod, cut a couple of thin > slices, drilled a centre hole and carefully faced them off to be just the right > thickness to put the roll where I needed it. Worked fine and I was happy -- > unitl I went to another branch of the same office shop. They had the 216mm > rolls. > > -tony You can still get it, but its becoming rarer... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Thermal-Warning-Strip-W210mmxL15mx12-7mm/dp/B00 0J63NHW/ref=sr_1_1?s=officeproduct&ie=UTF8&qid=1417471012&sr=1-1&keywords=fa x+paper Dave G4UGM From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 16:03:05 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:03:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] Message-ID: <20141201220305.6AF4518C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Coghlan > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and very few find it a > problem. > or > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and there are very few > people subscribed to cctech! I rather suspect it's 2B... :-) > So, I subscribed to cctalk (with the same address I use for cctech > which on reflection may not have been a good idea) I think you've hit the nail on the head... > However, I have not started getting three copies of anything. > Everything is very much as before, one copy from from cctalk and > usually another some time later from cctech Possibly what's going on is that Mailman has noticed that it's trying to send that email address _two_ 'CCTalk' copies: one for your actual CCTalk subscription, and one for your pseudo-subscription (via CCTech). It thereupon automagically suppresses the second copy. > So what next? I get the feeling that if I unsubscribe from cctech, I > will stop receiving anything at all Nope, my guess is you'd wind up with one copy (from your 'real' CCTalk subscription). Go ahead and try it: you can make sure you don't miss anything by looking in the archive (which is how I read the list: I don't actually get _any_ copies... :-) Noel From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Dec 1 16:09:41 2014 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:09:41 +0000 (WET) Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 01 Dec 2014 17:03:05 -0500 (EST)" <20141201220305.6AF4518C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01PFM7NVLFQC004Q19@beyondthepale.ie> > > > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and very few find it a > > problem. > > or > > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and there are very few > > people subscribed to cctech! > >I rather suspect it's 2B...: -) > 2B or not 2B, that is the question :-) If it is 2B then the moderators were going to a lot of trouble for the benefit of very few and since the reincarnation, they have been completely wasting their time :-( > > > So, I subscribed to cctalk (with the same address I use for cctech > > which on reflection may not have been a good idea) > >I think you've hit the nail on the head... > I'll try a different address then. > >Go ahead and try it: you can make sure you don't miss anything by looking in >the archive (which is how I read the list: I don't actually get _any_ >copies... :-) > Thanks for the suggestion but I find reading the list on the web to be a painful experience. Some people post lines that go on forever and they don't get wrapped so there can be lots of scrolling left and right involved. Top posted stuff is even harder to follow than it is in email. I tend to forget which posts I've read. The browser remembers for a while but sometimes forgets too, especially if I use a different browser. It is very painful to search. It is also painful to save interesting stuff. I can't discard the stuff I'm not interested in and leave the rest. Apart from that, it's fine :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Dec 1 16:49:33 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:49:33 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM-848E Normal Behavior? Message-ID: <015501d00db9$15245d80$3f6d1880$@net> Does anybody know if it is normal for a TM-848E to spin up for a few seconds after getting power and then stop spinning. The only other 8" drives I have experience with seem to start spinning when power is applied and keep spinning regardless of if the door is latched or if there is a disk in there. Thanks. From scaron at umich.edu Mon Dec 1 16:59:17 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:59:17 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS Software Source Book, 6th Edition (Oct 1990) PDF, Programming in VAX Fortran PDF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Neat book, thanks for posting it. Equally amusing as the source language being given, is that the list prices are as well! Yikes! Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I've just scanned the 1000-odd page software source book for VAX/VMS, 6th > Edition from October 1990, available from my scans page: > http://wickensonline.co.uk/app/index.html#/scans > > This is a mammoth book (beware the 643MB download size!) but is a fantastic > example of just how pervasive VAX and VMS were. It contains a comprehensive > listing of software available for the platform both from DEC and > independent software houses. Interesting personally is the indication of > programming language used. > > I've also uploaded Programming in VAX Fortran (Sept 84): I wasn't aware of > an online copy of this manual. It's a very handy guide to programming in > Fortran that covers everything you'd need to get up and running with the > language under VAX/VMS, including the use of EDIT, compiling, linking and > debugging, as well as reference material on the language and supporting > libraries. > > Enjoy, > > Mark. > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 1 17:15:02 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:15:02 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM-848E Normal Behavior? In-Reply-To: <015501d00db9$15245d80$3f6d1880$@net> References: <015501d00db9$15245d80$3f6d1880$@net> Message-ID: <547CF676.70306@sydex.com> On 12/01/2014 02:49 PM, Ali wrote: > Does anybody know if it is normal for a TM-848E to spin up for a few seconds > after getting power and then stop spinning. The only other 8" drives I have > experience with seem to start spinning when power is applied and keep > spinning regardless of if the door is latched or if there is a disk in > there. Thanks. The 848 has a DC motor--most full-height drives have an AC line-powered motor, so they spin all the time. My guess is that it's probably normal, since there's also a circuit in the 848 to detect when a disk is inserted and turns on the motor to correctly seat the floppy. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 1 17:29:42 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 15:29:42 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM-848E Normal Behavior? In-Reply-To: <547CF676.70306@sydex.com> References: <015501d00db9$15245d80$3f6d1880$@net> <547CF676.70306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A32D94-4068-4857-B3B8-CBF6FA4669CB@nf6x.net> It's been several weeks since I've done anything with my TM-848E drives, but I think that the behavior that Ali described is normal. As I recall, I have older belt-driven (but still DC-powered) TM-848 drives in some of my Radio Shack machines, and the newer ones with brushless hub motors that I use in my imaging setup. Both of them stop the spindle motor when not in use, unlike older 8" drives with AC-powered motors that run continuously. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 1 17:44:09 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 15:44:09 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor Message-ID: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> I have a Commodore 1950 monitor that came along with an Amiga 3000, and I think it has defeated me. Its failure mode is that there's no vertical scan; just a single, horizontal line. Vertical drive is still working, because I can shift the line up and down a bit using the vertical centering control, but whatever circuitry generates the vertical scan doesn't appear to be doing it. Trying to debug it has been challenging, even though I found a service manual online. The monitor appears to have been designed to be slapped together without much consideration of service accessibility, and the service manual does't describe the circuitry in much detail. It includes a block diagram, with no indication of which actual circuitry corresponds to which blocks. The schematic diagrams show connectivity between the parts, but don't identify the functionality of most of the ICs. I think I've narrowed down to one IC that's a likely candidate for the failed component, but it's still just an educated guess that it's even the IC responsible for generating the vertical scan. And it's a no-name IC with the monitor manufacturer's internal part number (IC401, with part number 56A326-1), so I don't think I'm likely to find a replacement for it unless I find another model 1950 with a different failure. I have an LCD monitor that I can use with the A3000, but the A3000 just doesn't look right with a flat panel on top of it. Now I wish I hadn't gotten rid of my old Viewsonic 17" CRT monitor all those years ago! I was sure happy to see it go at the time, but I failed to predict that I'd get interested in retrocomputing a decade later. So, I guess I'll just keep my eyes open for a suitable CRT monitor that I like for the A3000. Maybe some older Viewsonic monitor in the 13"-17" range? If anybody near southern California might be able to use my failed 1950 for parts, or has a 1950 with a different failure that they'd like to dump on me, please let me know! Even though I don't anticipate being able to fix it, I don't want to throw it away, in case parts appear or some other collector can make use of it. So, I'll stash its carcass away for the time being. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 1 18:30:47 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 16:30:47 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <37D568EE-90BF-40C1-9857-F3A66F25E1E8@aracnet.com> Are you just driving it off the built in VGA, or do you have a VGA card in it? I have a Picasso IV card in mine. Before I got the card I was just using an old 13" Magnavox VGA monitor, then I switched to a bigger and better SVGA monitor. One of these days I *will* get one of my Amiga's hooked up and running again! Zane On Dec 1, 2014, at 3:44 PM, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > I have a Commodore 1950 monitor that came along with an Amiga 3000, and I think it has defeated me. Its failure mode is that there's no vertical scan; just a single, horizontal line. Vertical drive is still working, because I can shift the line up and down a bit using the vertical centering control, but whatever circuitry generates the vertical scan doesn't appear to be doing it. > > Trying to debug it has been challenging, even though I found a service manual online. The monitor appears to have been designed to be slapped together without much consideration of service accessibility, and the service manual does't describe the circuitry in much detail. It includes a block diagram, with no indication of which actual circuitry corresponds to which blocks. The schematic diagrams show connectivity between the parts, but don't identify the functionality of most of the ICs. > > I think I've narrowed down to one IC that's a likely candidate for the failed component, but it's still just an educated guess that it's even the IC responsible for generating the vertical scan. And it's a no-name IC with the monitor manufacturer's internal part number (IC401, with part number 56A326-1), so I don't think I'm likely to find a replacement for it unless I find another model 1950 with a different failure. > > I have an LCD monitor that I can use with the A3000, but the A3000 just doesn't look right with a flat panel on top of it. Now I wish I hadn't gotten rid of my old Viewsonic 17" CRT monitor all those years ago! I was sure happy to see it go at the time, but I failed to predict that I'd get interested in retrocomputing a decade later. > > So, I guess I'll just keep my eyes open for a suitable CRT monitor that I like for the A3000. Maybe some older Viewsonic monitor in the 13"-17" range? If anybody near southern California might be able to use my failed 1950 for parts, or has a 1950 with a different failure that they'd like to dump on me, please let me know! Even though I don't anticipate being able to fix it, I don't want to throw it away, in case parts appear or some other collector can make use of it. So, I'll stash its carcass away for the time being. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 18:42:19 2014 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 18:42:19 -0600 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2014, at 5:44 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > So, I guess I'll just keep my eyes open for a suitable CRT monitor that I like for the A3000. Maybe some older Viewsonic monitor in the 13"-17" range? If anybody near southern California might be able to use my failed 1950 for parts, or has a 1950 with a different failure that they'd like to dump on me, please let me know! Even though I don't anticipate being able to fix it, I don't want to throw it away, in case parts appear or some other collector can make use of it. So, I'll stash its carcass away for the time being. Well, if you do replace it with another CRT monitor, don't toss the 1950! Monitors that sync that low are few and far between, and although the Commodore monitor ain't the best, it is a brand match and will work with the A3000 as well as the A1200 and A4000 in all unflicker-fixed modes. An oscilloscope would go a long way to helping with the repair. From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 18:52:50 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 18:52:50 -0600 Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info Message-ID: I've got a couple M1705 dual 12-bit output cards for the Omnibus. Does anyone have schematics or programming information available? I checked bitsavers, but I didn't see anything in the obvious places, and without an option number (like DR8-E for the dual 12-bit I/O card, M863), it makes searching a bit more difficult. I'm hoping to have this controlling my Christmas tree lights this year if I can get something working. It has quite a number of jumpers, and although I can deduce a few must be addressing, I don't know what the others might be for. Any help would be appreciated! Kyle W4GNU From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 1 19:22:34 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:22:34 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <37D568EE-90BF-40C1-9857-F3A66F25E1E8@aracnet.com> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <37D568EE-90BF-40C1-9857-F3A66F25E1E8@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <9E126A73-D079-4BDC-A7EE-AF5479DC0971@nf6x.net> > On Dec 1, 2014, at 16:30 , Zane Healy wrote: > > Are you just driving it off the built in VGA, or do you have a VGA card in it? Just the built-in VGA. As I understand it, plain old 31 kHz monitors will work with the flicker-fixer turned on, right? > On Dec 1, 2014, at 16:42 , Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Well, if you do replace it with another CRT monitor, don't toss the 1950! Monitors that sync that low are few and far between, and although the Commodore monitor ain't the best, it is a brand match and will work with the A3000 as well as the A1200 and A4000 in all unflicker-fixed modes. Yeah, I'd love to use the brand-matched monitor even though it's not the greatest monitor. Maybe another parts-donor will come along, and I can build a working monitor out of the pair? > An oscilloscope would go a long way to helping with the repair. It sure would, if I knew what any of the pins on the chip were supposed to be doing! It's just a 20-pin DIP with no explanation of what the chip's function is in the circuit, other than what I can infer from circuit topology. I really don't enjoy working on monitors like this one, or else I might poke around some more... lots of pointy high-voltage stuff, and very poor circuit accessibility without reducing it to a pile of loose boards and a tangle of cables next to a naked CRT rocking on the bench. Pretty much the whole thing needs to be taken to pieces to get to the solder side of the main board. Grr! If I could identify and procure that IC, and perhaps a few others in the vertical drive circuit, I'd happily tear it all apart, swap the chips, and cross my fingers. Hmm, maybe I should expend some more effort to try to find out if the OEM is still around (said to be a company called AOC, in Milpitas, CA), and whether anybody there might be able to identify the IC in question? I think it's a long shot, but maybe I'll get lucky. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 1 19:36:12 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 20:36:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info Message-ID: <20141202013612.E086518C13B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kyle Owen > I've got a couple M1705 dual 12-bit output cards for the Omnibus. Does > anyone have schematics or programming information available? I checked > bitsavers, but I didn't see anything in the obvious places They're in the DEC Logic Handbook; in the 1976-77 edition, they are on pp. 227-231. If you can't find it online, Topline has one for sale cheap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321490489267 If you really need it right away, I suppose I could crunch the book into my scanner and scan those pages. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 1 19:37:32 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:37:32 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <9E126A73-D079-4BDC-A7EE-AF5479DC0971@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <37D568EE-90BF-40C1-9857-F3A66F25E1E8@aracnet.com> <9E126A73-D079-4BDC-A7EE-AF5479DC0971@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <027F0282-E6AE-4E92-BCB2-73619F2E191D@nf6x.net> Oh, this is neat... I have an address for the OEM from some old documentation: AOC International 311 Sinclair Frontage Rd. Milpitas, CA 95035 Google Earth shows that whatever used to be at that address has now been replaced by recent-looking residential construction. I found another possible address online in nearby Fremont, in what is an industrial/commercial area. Maybe I'll try some phone work during business hours tomorrow to see if the company still exists. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 1 19:48:25 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:48:25 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <027F0282-E6AE-4E92-BCB2-73619F2E191D@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <37D568EE-90BF-40C1-9857-F3A66F25E1E8@aracnet.com> <9E126A73-D079-4BDC-A7EE-AF5479DC0971@nf6x.net> <027F0282-E6AE-4E92-BCB2-73619F2E191D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <2E3F7249-32C7-4114-9DA7-9533A3F11859@nf6x.net> Hmm, looks like they might still be around! AOC International 47490 Seabridge Dr. Fremont, CA 94538 http://www.aoc.com (Duh!!) I'll try calling them during business hours tomorrow to see if anybody there might know something about a 24 year old monitor! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From vrs at msn.com Mon Dec 1 20:21:06 2014 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 18:21:06 -0800 Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info In-Reply-To: <20141202013612.E086518C13B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141202013612.E086518C13B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: From: Noel Chiappa: Monday, December 01, 2014 5:36 PM > > From: Kyle Owen > > I've got a couple M1705 dual 12-bit output cards for the Omnibus. Does > > anyone have schematics or programming information available? I checked > > bitsavers, but I didn't see anything in the obvious places > > They're in the DEC Logic Handbook; in the 1976-77 edition, they are on pp. > 227-231. They are also described in the 1975-76 edition, which is available on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/handbooks/Digital_Logic_Handbook_1975-76.pdf The M1705 description starts on handbook page 281 (PDF page 295). Vince From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 1 20:51:15 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 21:51:15 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141201155728.D5B3818C12A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141201155728.D5B3818C12A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547D2923.7080906@compsys.to> >Noel Chiappa wrote: >[Snip] > > > There was also a TECO version available for the PDP-11's running RSTS/E > > (and likely others) > >There was a 'visual TECO' running on the V6 Unix at MIT; that's what we used >before the EMACS came along. I don't know the background of it, if it shares >any history with the one you mentioned. > >>From the (slim) manual I have for it, it seems to have had both TECO mode >(the usual TECO command interface, the stuff that looks like line noise), and >a visual mode, just like primitive EMACS. (Probably only supported VT52's, >though.) The latter mode had some built-in command keys, and there were also >macro packages to extend it (again, just like primitive EMACS, although those >for the PDP-11 Unix TECO were not as sophisticated). > >That's all almost certainly on the tape too, if anyone cares! :-) > Since the "Subject" specified "word processing software", I assumed that would exclude TECO which I regard as a "text editor" (although Johnny strongly disagrees since his concept is a "line editor" - if I remember correctly). In any case, since TECO has been mentioned, I believe that KED (a screen editor - KEYBOARD EDITOR) which was produced by DEC for the VT100 and other similar VDTs qualifies. KED has been distributed with all versions of RT-11 at least since V04.00 in 1980. KED runs under both RT-11 and RSTS/E and will at least qualify as much as TECO. The DEC variants are limited to 24 lines by 80 columns along with 24 lines by 132 columns if a VT100 is being used with the AVO hardware. MACROs are supported, so some extensive editing can be accomplished. Auxiliary input and output files are also supported. But, note that KED is a screen editor without the sort of things that a word processor is likely to have. What you see is what you get. Ersatz-11, the PDP-11 emulator by John Wilson of Dbit, now supports screens up to 255 lines by 255 columns, although in practice, no Windows system can properly support those values. On my Windows XP system, the video card and monitor support up to about 50 lines by 200 columns. As a enhancement to KED, I added code which runs under RT-11 and RSTS/E which also supports up to 255 lines by 255 columns - BUT not at the same time since the screen buffer MUST be large enough to hold all of the characters on the screen. Since the actual maximum useful screen sizes are about 50 lines by 120 columns and 50 lines by 198 columns (for a maximum screen buffer of 9900 characters), I use KED under RT-11 running under Ersatz-11. With my current video card and monitor, I have chosen to use FULL SCREEN mode which is supported at 50 lines by 80 columns and 44 lines by 132 columns. The extra 20 lines available when I inspect a MACRO-11 output listing are extremely helpful. Jerome Fine From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 1 20:57:58 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 03:57:58 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547D2923.7080906@compsys.to> References: <20141201155728.D5B3818C12A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547D2923.7080906@compsys.to> Message-ID: <547D2AB6.3010306@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-02 03:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> [Snip] >> >> > There was also a TECO version available for the PDP-11's running >> RSTS/E >> > (and likely others) >> There was a 'visual TECO' running on the V6 Unix at MIT; that's what >> we used >> before the EMACS came along. I don't know the background of it, if it >> shares >> any history with the one you mentioned. >> >>> From the (slim) manual I have for it, it seems to have had both TECO >>> mode >> (the usual TECO command interface, the stuff that looks like line >> noise), and >> a visual mode, just like primitive EMACS. (Probably only supported >> VT52's, >> though.) The latter mode had some built-in command keys, and there >> were also >> macro packages to extend it (again, just like primitive EMACS, >> although those >> for the PDP-11 Unix TECO were not as sophisticated). >> >> That's all almost certainly on the tape too, if anyone cares! :-) >> > Since the "Subject" specified "word processing software", I assumed that > would exclude TECO which I regard as a "text editor" (although Johnny > strongly disagrees since his concept is a "line editor" - if I remember > correctly). I would perhaps disagree since TECO is a programming language, and whatnot. But I don't object to calling it a text editor as well. I'm not sure what distinction to a line editor would be. Did you perhaps have an argument with someone else, and mixed it up with me? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 1 21:03:53 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 21:03:53 -0600 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547D2C19.90805@pico-systems.com> On 12/01/2014 11:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > but my sense > now, looking back, was that it was one of that wave of machines (the VAX being > the other notable one) that went down the CISC road just before RISC arrived, > and showed that CISC was not really the way to go; those systems were all > dinosaurs. It was certainly a CISC design, and probably not as clean as the VAX architecture (although the number of addressing options on the VAX may have gone off the deep end also). Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 1 21:11:55 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 19:11:55 -0800 Subject: Cyber ECL Wiring In-Reply-To: <547B9A20.9080709@pico-systems.com> References: <31EACFB56176474EA8E036483C7496EA@RosemarysPC> <547AB8E6.8080604@sydex.com> <547B4CE7.50602@pico-systems.com> <7FF08A3A-8A3F-4552-8DA7-FDD54D143F00@cs.ubc.ca> <547B9A20.9080709@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2014-Nov-30, at 2:28 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/30/2014 02:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Would that be these?: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/crimps.jpg http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/HP2116C/backplane.jpg It's the backplane of an HP2116C. I've always wondered what the tradename for the technique was. Looks like in these machines the wire was stripped before crimping though. > Yes, that's it. No, I am PRETTY sure the tool stripped the wire as it was > terminated. Right, I was just distinguishing between the wire being stripped vs having the crimp bite through the insulation. Looking closely at them, there's actually two sections to the crimp, a short bit that clamps the insulation and a longer section for the metal-to-metal contact. I haven't experienced any problems with them, thankfully. > I actually worked at a place that used this system, that was > in 1969. I believe the system came from AMP, but i could be wrong > on that. I just looked, the edge connectors at least are indeed from AMP. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 1 21:36:25 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:36:25 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/12/14 12:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was > glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did get the > job done. That's interesting. I wonder how it was ported - presumably via the Pascal compiler. I did web2C-based ports to Classic MacOS (inside MPW) and Inmos Transputer; I'd have thought pdp-11 was quite a bit too small for TeX. If you recall any more details, I'd be interested - I might attempt a new PDP-11 port. --Toby > It ran a lot better, of course, on a VAX. > > Word processing doesn't get any better than TeX, I still use > it under Linux. > > Jon > From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 22:10:18 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 22:10:18 -0600 Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info In-Reply-To: References: <20141202013612.E086518C13B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Noel Chiappa: Monday, December 01, 2014 5:36 PM >> >> They're in the DEC Logic Handbook; in the 1976-77 edition, they are on pp. >> 227-231. >> > > > They are also described in the 1975-76 edition, which is available on > bitsavers: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/handbooks/Digital_Logic_ > Handbook_1975-76.pdf > > The M1705 description starts on handbook page 281 (PDF page 295). > Thanks Noel and Vince. I got my 1973-74 edition off the shelf, only to find that it didn't have the M1705 (M1703 and M1709 were the closest). Looks like the LAB-8/E did not utilize the M1705, but rather the M863, for any digital output. Of course, the M863 includes digital input as well. Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 23:01:13 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:01:13 -0600 Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info In-Reply-To: References: <20141202013612.E086518C13B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Thanks Noel and Vince. I got my 1973-74 edition off the shelf, only to > find that it didn't have the M1705 (M1703 and M1709 were the closest). > > Looks like the LAB-8/E did not utilize the M1705, but rather the M863, for > any digital output. Of course, the M863 includes digital input as well. > Also, if I want to obtain more information on jumpers (particularly addressing, etc.), where would this information be? The block diagram in the Logic Handbook shows a few select jumpers, but does not give a detailed list of the 32 jumpers, if I counted correctly. Thanks again, Kyle From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 23:13:08 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 22:13:08 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547D2C19.90805@pico-systems.com> References: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547D2C19.90805@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote [about NS32K]: > It was certainly a CISC design, and probably not as clean as the VAX > architecture > (although the number of addressing options on the VAX may have gone off the > deep end also). You haven't seen "off the deep end" CISC until you look at the Intel iAPX 432, which makes the VAX architecture look lean and mean. For that matter, VAX was far simpler than x86 and x86_64 have become. And I wouldn't argue that it's CISC, but even the ARMv8 architecture manual is over 2000 pages. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 23:24:20 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:24:20 -0600 Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info In-Reply-To: References: <20141202013612.E086518C13B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi Kyle, I'd have to do some checking, but the M1705 might have been tied into the PDP14 industrial control. A bit foggy about it right now. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:01 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > > > Thanks Noel and Vince. I got my 1973-74 edition off the shelf, only to > > find that it didn't have the M1705 (M1703 and M1709 were the closest). > > > > Looks like the LAB-8/E did not utilize the M1705, but rather the M863, > for > > any digital output. Of course, the M863 includes digital input as well. > > > > Also, if I want to obtain more information on jumpers (particularly > addressing, etc.), where would this information be? The block diagram in > the Logic Handbook shows a few select jumpers, but does not give a detailed > list of the 32 jumpers, if I counted correctly. > > Thanks again, > > Kyle > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 23:48:57 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 05:48:57 +0000 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > I have a Commodore 1950 monitor that came along with an Amiga 3000, and I think it has defeated me. Its > failure mode is that there's no vertical scan; just a single, horizontal line. Vertical drive is still working, because I > can shift the line up and down a bit using the vertical centering control, but whatever circuitry generates the > vertical scan doesn't appear to be doing it. It is not uncommon for the vertical shift control to apply a DC bias to the yoke, and thus the output amplifier stage could still be the problem. > Trying to debug it has been challenging, even though I found a service manual online. The monitor appears to Do you have a URL for this manual? I might give it a look and see if I can deduce anything. > have been designed to be slapped together without much consideration of service accessibility, and the service That is quite normal, alas. > manual does't describe the circuitry in much detail. It includes a block diagram, with no indication of which > actual circuitry corresponds to which blocks. The schematic diagrams show connectivity between the parts, but > don't identify the functionality of most of the ICs. > I think I've narrowed down to one IC that's a likely candidate for the failed component, but it's still just an > educated guess that it's even the IC responsible for generating the vertical scan. And it's a no-name IC with the > monitor manufacturer's internal part number (IC401, with part number 56A326-1), so I don't think I'm likely to > find a replacement for it unless I find another model 1950 with a different failure. Older Commodore monitors were Philips inside. I have an idea this 1950 is an AOC chassis, but I might be wrong. That IC number doesn't look like a Philips number, certainly, It is quite possibly a standard part, house coded. The vertical section of a monitor is much simpler than the horizontal section, and standard ICs are common. Often they are also used in TVs (the deflection rate, etc, is the same after all). Often the back emf from the vertical deflection coils during retrace is used to power the output stage of the vertical amplifier. Look for a diode and capacitor connected to the output IC. And check them, they often cause this sort of trouble. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 1 23:53:26 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 21:53:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk Message-ID: I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. They're from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear that they're hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along the outer edge. There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of these appear to be done in an attempt to restrict users to a single vendor of floppies. Here are some pics: http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Dec 2 00:03:38 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 22:03:38 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM-848E Normal Behavior? In-Reply-To: <547CF676.70306@sydex.com> References: <015501d00db9$15245d80$3f6d1880$@net> <547CF676.70306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <018901d00df5$b8eb4780$2ac1d680$@net> > The 848 has a DC motor--most full-height drives have an AC line-powered > motor, so they spin all the time. > Thanks Chuck just making sure as my only other 8" drive (Qumes) are on all the time. >As I recall, I have older belt-driven (but still DC-powered) TM-848 drives in some of my Radio Shack >machines, and the newer ones with brushless hub motors that I use in my imaging setup. Both of them >stop the spindle motor when not in use, unlike older 8" drives with AC-powered motors that run >continuously. Mark, Do you know, or have any experience, with reliability of the brushless vs. belt driven? My bet would be on the brushless motor (the belt being the weak point) but you never know. -Ali From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 00:03:56 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:03:56 -0800 Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> On 12/1/2014 9:53 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. > They're from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear > that they're hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along > the outer edge. There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of > these appear to be done in an attempt to restrict users to a single > vendor of floppies. > > Here are some pics: > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg Those look suspiciously like floppies for the Memorex 650/651 -- the first commercially available read/write floppy drive (1972). I just picked up a 651 myself (mostly because it looks cool, I can only hope to someday have a machine to use it with...) If you're willing to spare one of those disks (so I have a matching set) let me know... :). - Josh From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 00:04:05 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 22:04:05 -0800 Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:53 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. They're > from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear that they're > hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along the outer edge. > There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of these appear to be done > in an attempt to restrict users to a single vendor of floppies. > > Here are some pics: > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg > -- See also: http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/incoterm-spd-20-20 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Incoterm/Hard%20sector%20diskette%20for%20Incoterm.png From brian at marstella.net Tue Dec 2 00:04:39 2014 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 01:04:39 -0500 Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547D5677.2080808@marstella.net> David, I think these might actually be Stamco brand. One of my uncles had a machine that used a disk that looked like this but unfortunately he can't remember any of the details. This was back in the mid- to late-70's, I think and he only had it for a short time as I recall. If one of us remembers anything more I'll post additional info. Regards, Brian. On 12/02/2014 12:53 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. > They're from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear > that they're hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along > the outer edge. There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of > these appear to be done in an attempt to restrict users to a single > vendor of floppies. > > Here are some pics: > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 2 00:12:04 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 22:12:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> References: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2014, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/1/2014 9:53 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. They're >> from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear that they're >> hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along the outer edge. >> There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of these appear to be done >> in an attempt to restrict users to a single vendor of floppies. >> >> Here are some pics: >> http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg >> http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg > > Those look suspiciously like floppies for the Memorex 650/651 -- the first > commercially available read/write floppy drive (1972). I just picked up a > 651 myself (mostly because it looks cool, I can only hope to someday have a > machine to use it with...) If you're willing to spare one of those disks (so > I have a matching set) let me know... :). Would you like all of them? Got anything interesting to trade? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Mon Dec 1 15:21:09 2014 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 21:21:09 -0000 Subject: IC storage / anti-static foam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601d00dac$bae10730$30a31590$@co.uk> > I know this was discussed before but.... > > What are recommended methods for storing a variety of ICs where they > are easily accessible as needed, keeps them safe and for the long term? > Tubes are good if you can find them in any quantity now though they aren't so handy if like most folk you have a largish mix with only small numbers of each. I have a cabinet with antistatic plastic drawers for my MOS ICs and some of the bipolar with the rest of the bipolar in an ordinary styrene drawer cabinet. In my earlier days in the MOS industry before more specialised antistatic stuff became available we used to push them into a sheet of polystyrene wrapped with foil. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 16:45:20 2014 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 22:45:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Jumper settings for Shugart 810 8" floppy drive Message-ID: <1341806784.3423187.1417473920165.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106136.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi All, I have a couple of Shugart 810 drives I'd like to get working with an OSI system.? While swapping the drives around, I made some changes to the jumpers, but now I can't find the notes I made of the original configuration.? Does anyone have information on the function of the various jumpers on these drives?? I found some manuals online, but they don't seem to have the jumper info. Any information would be most welcome! Thanks, Dave From earl at baugh.org Tue Dec 2 00:27:39 2014 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 01:27:39 -0500 Subject: SMD replacement options? Message-ID: An update on the SMD replacement options... Contacted someone at MBI (mbiusa.com) and they quoted $395 for drive... (I had asked them about a "modern replacement" for the Fujitsu drive in my Sun 1 drive assembly... what they quoted me back was an actual replacement Fujitsu drive... not sure if it's NOS or refurbished OS) Then I clarified my question and said "what's the price for the SMD emulator they had on their site... what I got back was : "The cost of the SMD emulator starts at approx $8500 per spindle, depending on the system spec and controller" (the other ones that I got a link to from a few folks on ebay start at $1500) So, that's a dead end. I can't believe someone hasn't built some sort of adapter from -to-SMD that isn't ridiculously priced... Earl the Squirrel From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 02:09:19 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:09:19 +0100 Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: References: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: Those type of 8 inch disks are used in the Incoterm series intelligent terminals. Here is a little bit of information about my Incoterm terminal: http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/incoterm-spd-20-20 The disks I have are made by Verbatim. 2014-12-02 7:12 GMT+01:00 David Griffith : > On Mon, 1 Dec 2014, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On 12/1/2014 9:53 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> >>> I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. They're >>> from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear that they're >>> hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along the outer edge. >>> There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of these appear to be done >>> in an attempt to restrict users to a single vendor of floppies. >>> >>> Here are some pics: >>> http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg >>> http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg >>> >> >> Those look suspiciously like floppies for the Memorex 650/651 -- the >> first commercially available read/write floppy drive (1972). I just picked >> up a 651 myself (mostly because it looks cool, I can only hope to someday >> have a machine to use it with...) If you're willing to spare one of those >> disks (so I have a matching set) let me know... :). >> > > Would you like all of them? Got anything interesting to trade? > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 2 03:57:06 2014 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 2 Dec 2014 01:57:06 -0800 Subject: Still Alive? In-Reply-To: <54653BEE.5040900@compsys.to> References: <54653BEE.5040900@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1417514226.547d8cf261a92@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting "Jerome H. Fine" : > Still Alive - Test - Please do not respond!!!!!!!!!!!! > This was a triumph. I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS. It's hard to overstate my satisfaction. Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can. For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead. But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake. And the science gets done and you make a neat gun. For the people who are still alive. I'm not even angry. I'm being so sincere right now. Even though you broke my heart and killed me. And tore me to pieces. And threw every piece into a fire. As they burned it hurt because I was so happy for you! Now these points of data make a beautiful line. And we're out of beta, we're releasing on time. So I'm GLaD I got burned. Think of all the things we learned For the people who are still alive. Go ahead and leave me. I think I prefer to stay inside. Maybe you'll find someone else to help you. Maybe Black Mesa... THAT WAS A JOKE. Haha. FAT CHANCE. Anyway, this cake is great. It's so delicious and moist. Look at me still talking when there's science to do. When I look out there it makes me GLaD I'm not you. I've experiments to run there is research to be done On the people who are still alive And believe me I am still alive. I'm doing science and I'm still alive. I feel FANTASTIC and I'm still alive. While you're dying I'll be still alive. And when you're dead I will be still alive. Still alive Still alive, From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 04:01:18 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 10:01:18 -0000 Subject: System/3 on Ebay - How much isit really worth? Message-ID: <029401d00e16$eb042090$c10c61b0$@gmail.com> So to continue the discussion, how much would these be worth as scrap in the USA? http://www.ebay.com/itm/151491089302 The asking price of $5k seems a tad high to me, so I can see it going to the crusher. Dave Wade G4UGM From abs at absd.org Tue Dec 2 04:15:19 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 10:15:19 +0000 Subject: System/3 on Ebay - How much isit really worth? In-Reply-To: <029401d00e16$eb042090$c10c61b0$@gmail.com> References: <029401d00e16$eb042090$c10c61b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2 December 2014 at 10:01, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > So to continue the discussion, how much would these be worth as scrap in the > USA? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151491089302 > > The asking price of $5k seems a tad high to me, so I can see it going to the > crusher. They imply they would take less: ``Don't be bashful...I can't start with you...These electronic relics deserve a good home and care after surviving the barrage of pliers and screwdrivers that have torn up many systems in the last decade for the tiny bits of precious metal that lay in wait inside her core. You don't know where we might meet if you dont ask.'' From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Dec 2 05:10:36 2014 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 06:10:36 -0500 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: <8D1DC37BB6F419A-3330-3A0CA@webmail-m265.sysops.aol.com> On Nov 30, 2014, at 5:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/11/14 8:16 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> or, if not, anyone feel like helping me port a contemporary line printer >> daemon to 2.11bsd? >> Best I can find is LEX-11, on TSX-Plus. >> Surprised Wordstar wasn't ported. :)> > --Toby I am both shocked and appalled that no one mentioned VTEDIT, which comes standard with RSTS/E . . . . From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Dec 2 05:21:40 2014 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 05:21:40 -0600 Subject: "There's no need to resurrect MC" (KL10 ITS) In-Reply-To: <20141127160042.864CD18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141127160042.864CD18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <876A8A2C-3D72-4AE9-94B0-22C222DD47B6@lunar-tokyo.net> ?There?s no need to resurrect MC? says the klh10 source, but since when has that ever stopped me from doing something? Is there some other reason I *can?t* resurrect KL10 ITS by adding the relevant missing parts to klh10? I think all I?d have to add is ITS paging in the KL version, the RH10, and simulation of the IO PDP11 and stuff that was attached to it. There?s references to model B hardware in UCODE; (Did MC become a model-B KL at some point?) so I might not have to deal with model-A vs. model-B differences. Or I can simply assume it was intended to run ITS on model B hardware and hack in support where required. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Dec 2 07:20:58 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:20:58 +0000 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're after it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily control a terminal? I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be interested if there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. Mark. On 2 December 2014 at 03:36, Toby Thain wrote: > On 01/12/14 12:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was >> glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did get the >> job done. >> > > That's interesting. I wonder how it was ported - presumably via the Pascal > compiler. > > I did web2C-based ports to Classic MacOS (inside MPW) and Inmos > Transputer; I'd have thought pdp-11 was quite a bit too small for TeX. > > If you recall any more details, I'd be interested - I might attempt a new > PDP-11 port. > > --Toby > > > > > It ran a lot better, of course, on a VAX. > >> >> Word processing doesn't get any better than TeX, I still use >> it under Linux. >> >> Jon >> >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 2 07:53:09 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 08:53:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: M1705 dual 12-bit output info Message-ID: <20141202135309.3F0DC18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kyle Owen > The block diagram in the Logic Handbook shows a few select jumpers, but > does not give a detailed list of the 32 jumpers, if I counted correctly. Yeah, I noticed that; there were no jumpers shown for the device code. I can only assume that they are similar to the device code jumpers for the M1703. If so, that would be 24 jumpers right there. (It's '24' because the M1705 includes two completely separate devices, which can apparently be given device codes independently.) If so, that would be all of them - the block diagram shows 8; 24 for device codes; total 32. Odd the way they use separate jumpers for 1 and 0; why not one jumper with a pull-up/down? Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 2 07:57:56 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 08:57:56 -0500 Subject: Languages used on PDP-11 - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547DC564.2050508@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/12/14 8:20 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is > for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're after > it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word > processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily > control a terminal? > > I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly > Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. > > I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be interested if > there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. > Many languages are available, depending on operating system. On Unix, C, Fortran and Pascal of course. MACRO-11 was always popular. PDP-11 was also used to develop experimental language environments like POP-2 (available on modern machines as poplog). TeX is written in "literate Pascal"; it was developed, iirc, on PDP-10 machinery at SAIL? Pretty sure you could only compile and run it on a fairly large PDP-11, if at all. (Note that it's not an editor, like most of the other programs mentioned; it's a compiler.) --Toby > Mark. > > On 2 December 2014 at 03:36, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 01/12/14 12:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was >>> glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did get the >>> job done. >>> >> >> That's interesting. I wonder how it was ported - presumably via the Pascal >> compiler. >> >> I did web2C-based ports to Classic MacOS (inside MPW) and Inmos >> Transputer; I'd have thought pdp-11 was quite a bit too small for TeX. >> >> If you recall any more details, I'd be interested - I might attempt a new >> PDP-11 port. >> >> --Toby >> >> >> >>> It ran a lot better, of course, on a VAX. >> >>> >>> Word processing doesn't get any better than TeX, I still use >>> it under Linux. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >> > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 08:00:02 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:00:02 -0500 Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: I was seeking the "best" pdp11 prose text editing experience for typing in manuscripts, composing, letter writing, etc. (not programming language - that was just a side effect of some editors actually being programming languages in and of themselves). Since this is such a highly relative subject, I expected a slew of answers and got them (thanks, all!). While not part of the originally-intended scope, the conversation has inspired me to at least try composing in TeX, which I've sort of meant to do for years, but never got a round tuit. Sounds like it'll stay out of my way and allow me to just flow ideas and not even address layout until the end, which is, in essence, what I'm after. That said, I think the most convincing answer to my original question so far, not having actually reviewed them yet, is some kind of emacs, most likely Jove since it's already there in 2.xBSD and keeps me from having to mess with/re-learn other operating systems (oh, shoot!). As a side note, I used teco and edt back when pdp11s running DEC operating systems were still being phased out and found them to be unsatisfying; however, I do admit that I was an amateur at them. My other point here was to get the Diablo 630 going and have it type nice, letter-quality copy for me. Since my kid had a report due this morning, I caved and temporarily connected it to an old Sun machine and just threw lpd at it. Pretty straightforward: lpadmin -p diablo -v /dev/cua/b -o stty=300 -o banner=never enable diablo accept diablo So the thing's up and accepting jobs. Prints like a war zone :) !!! Once one of the '11s is up, on the net and stabilized, I'd like to have it take over this role as well. thx again for all the discussion around this & feel welcome to continue the thread! jake From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 2 08:05:24 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:05:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual Message-ID: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So it turns out that I have a copy of the "PDP-11 MACRO-11 Assembler Program Manual" (DEC-11-OMACA-A-D). I see that Manx says no copies of this are online: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,4416 Alas, I don't have a page-feeder scanner, and it looks to be well over 100 pages; a bit much to feed by hand. Anyone out there with such a scanner willing to scan it for us? (I want to hang onto the hardcopy, which is why I don't simply send it to Al.) Noel From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 08:06:43 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:06:43 -0500 Subject: bigger pdp11 terminals! (was: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?) Message-ID: I want to do something like this to 2.11bsd's window(1) utility; possibly vi(1) too.. Window(1) dies with "Out of memory" if you increase the terminal geometry even a little bit. Anyone know how to go about embiggening this program? Would be great to connect a nice, big 132x66 xterm to 2.11bsd and split it all up! On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:51 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Noel Chiappa wrote: > > [Snip] >> >> > There was also a TECO version available for the PDP-11's running >> RSTS/E >> > (and likely others) >> There was a 'visual TECO' running on the V6 Unix at MIT; that's what we >> used >> before the EMACS came along. I don't know the background of it, if it >> shares >> any history with the one you mentioned. >> >> From the (slim) manual I have for it, it seems to have had both TECO mode >>> >> (the usual TECO command interface, the stuff that looks like line noise), >> and >> a visual mode, just like primitive EMACS. (Probably only supported VT52's, >> though.) The latter mode had some built-in command keys, and there were >> also >> macro packages to extend it (again, just like primitive EMACS, although >> those >> for the PDP-11 Unix TECO were not as sophisticated). >> >> That's all almost certainly on the tape too, if anyone cares! :-) >> >> Since the "Subject" specified "word processing software", I assumed that > would exclude TECO which I regard as a "text editor" (although Johnny > strongly disagrees since his concept is a "line editor" - if I remember > correctly). > > In any case, since TECO has been mentioned, I believe that KED (a > screen editor - KEYBOARD EDITOR) which was produced by DEC > for the VT100 and other similar VDTs qualifies. KED has been distributed > with all versions of RT-11 at least since V04.00 in 1980. > > KED runs under both RT-11 and RSTS/E and will at least qualify as much > as TECO. The DEC variants are limited to 24 lines by 80 columns along > with 24 lines by 132 columns if a VT100 is being used with the AVO > hardware. MACROs are supported, so some extensive editing can be > accomplished. Auxiliary input and output files are also supported. But, > note that KED is a screen editor without the sort of things that a word > processor is likely to have. What you see is what you get. > > Ersatz-11, the PDP-11 emulator by John Wilson of Dbit, now supports > screens up to 255 lines by 255 columns, although in practice, no Windows > system can properly support those values. On my Windows XP system, > the video card and monitor support up to about 50 lines by 200 columns. > > As a enhancement to KED, I added code which runs under RT-11 and > RSTS/E which also supports up to 255 lines by 255 columns - BUT not > at the same time since the screen buffer MUST be large enough to hold > all of the characters on the screen. Since the actual maximum useful > screen > sizes are about 50 lines by 120 columns and 50 lines by 198 columns (for > a maximum screen buffer of 9900 characters), I use KED under RT-11 > running under Ersatz-11. With my current video card and monitor, I have > chosen to use FULL SCREEN mode which is supported at 50 lines by > 80 columns and 44 lines by 132 columns. The extra 20 lines available when > I inspect a MACRO-11 output listing are extremely helpful. > > Jerome Fine > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Dec 2 08:17:09 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:17:09 +0000 Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual In-Reply-To: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I can do that Noel but I'm in the UK. On 2 December 2014 at 14:05, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So it turns out that I have a copy of the "PDP-11 MACRO-11 Assembler > Program > Manual" (DEC-11-OMACA-A-D). I see that Manx says no copies of this are > online: > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,4416 > > Alas, I don't have a page-feeder scanner, and it looks to be well over 100 > pages; a bit much to feed by hand. Anyone out there with such a scanner > willing to scan it for us? (I want to hang onto the hardcopy, which is why > I > don't simply send it to Al.) > > Noel > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Dec 2 08:29:07 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:29:07 +0000 Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jacob, I went along a similar journey with VAX to find a terminal based word processor. I used ALLIN1 back in the day so knew that was a possibility - the word processing module is a successor of WPS-8 called WPS-PLUS - this was a stand-alone application for a while before ALLIN1 came along. Skip Walter, one of the original architects has written about it here: http://skipwalter.net/2012/01/13/the-making-of-enterprise-software-all-in-1/ There are a couple of other articles on his site too. I installed and used ALLIN1 for my Retrochallenge 2009 Winter Warmup entry, there are some screen shots and information here: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro/allin1.html What I have found is that terminal based word processing software is pretty thin on the ground across the board. The other alternative I've played with is WordPerfect for Unix. I have that running on a Sun Ultra 5 under Solaris 2.9 - there is both a graphical and command line executable. Others have tried to find similar software - a word processor you can telnet to effectively - but there isn't a great deal out there. To bring this full circle I also connected a daisywheel printer (a JUKI 6100) to the Ultra 5 and successfully printed out articles written in WordPerfect. If I could find a language I was comfortable with and a PDP environment I'd give writing a rudimentary word processor a go (think the kind of application you might have found on a CBM-64 back in the day for example). Finally, TeX (or probably more likely LaTeX) is a great tool that easily gets you hooked once you've had a play. It is *extremely* powerful so you have to put a bit of effort in for anything fancy, but for banging out letters you're in a straight ASCII text editor - no frills (or maybe thrills?) required. Definitely requires a page-based printer however (inkjet/laser) - happy to be proved wrong but unless you have an application to print pixels on your daisywheel (it has been done mind!) you're out of luck using that as an output device from LaTex (actually that might be a bit harsh - lots of documentation systems can convert to LaTeX and I remember a terminal based preview application so maybe there would be a bit of milage in there but it would mostly be a clash of technologies I feel). Mark. On 2 December 2014 at 14:00, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I was seeking the "best" pdp11 prose text editing experience for typing > in manuscripts, composing, letter writing, etc. (not programming language - > that was just a side effect of some editors actually being programming > languages in and of themselves). > > Since this is such a highly relative subject, I expected a slew of > answers and got them (thanks, all!). > > While not part of the originally-intended scope, the conversation has > inspired me to at least try composing in TeX, which I've sort of meant to > do for years, but never got a round tuit. Sounds like it'll stay out of my > way and allow me to just flow ideas and not even address layout until the > end, which is, in essence, what I'm after. That said, I think the most > convincing answer to my original question so far, not having actually > reviewed them yet, is some kind of emacs, most likely Jove since it's > already there in 2.xBSD and keeps me from having to mess with/re-learn > other operating systems (oh, shoot!). As a side note, I used teco and edt > back when pdp11s running DEC operating systems were still being phased out > and found them to be unsatisfying; however, I do admit that I was an > amateur at them. > > My other point here was to get the Diablo 630 going and have it type > nice, letter-quality copy for me. Since my kid had a report due this > morning, I caved and temporarily connected it to an old Sun machine and > just threw lpd at it. Pretty straightforward: > > lpadmin -p diablo -v /dev/cua/b -o stty=300 -o banner=never > enable diablo > accept diablo > > So the thing's up and accepting jobs. Prints like a war zone :) !!! > > Once one of the '11s is up, on the net and stabilized, I'd like to have it > take over this role as well. > > > > thx again for all the discussion around this & feel welcome to continue the > thread! > > jake > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 2 08:44:23 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:44:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Series/1, PDP-11/84 potentially available in Oregon Message-ID: <20141202144423.C19E118C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Rollins > I'm tempted to put it on eBay after seeing the price the last one sold > for If you're talking about the one that sold a couple of weeks back for $1K, note that that included a TM80 tape drive (the bulk of the value), and two 11/84s. By the time you deduct the value of the TM80, and the value of the boards which one could easily pull and sell separately (e.g. the CPU and memory, along with the TM80 controller), and the power supplies, the value of the rest works out to... -$0. Noel From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 08:53:01 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:53:01 -0500 Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, Mark, it was a poor old ultra5 that I used for the Diablo last night as well, but running snv_65! That hardware, while pretty cheap and rafty, does have a mysterious tendency to last a long time. I had thought TeX was line printer friendly at some point and only later evolved to support matrix-type devices? I had purchased Wordperfect for Linux some decades ago. It was quite brittle, but mostly worked. Didn't try the cli version, just gui, which is regrettable. iirc it was ported via java, so maybe my old copy would work on other unixes (or whatever random java hosts) as well? On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Jacob, I went along a similar journey with VAX to find a terminal based > word processor. I used ALLIN1 back in the day so knew that was a > possibility - the word processing module is a successor of WPS-8 called > WPS-PLUS - this was a stand-alone application for a while before ALLIN1 > came along. > > Skip Walter, one of the original architects has written about it here: > > http://skipwalter.net/2012/01/13/the-making-of-enterprise-software-all-in-1/ > There are a couple of other articles on his site too. > > I installed and used ALLIN1 for my Retrochallenge 2009 Winter Warmup entry, > there are some screen shots and information here: > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro/allin1.html > > What I have found is that terminal based word processing software is pretty > thin on the ground across the board. The other alternative I've played with > is WordPerfect for Unix. I have that running on a Sun Ultra 5 under Solaris > 2.9 - there is both a graphical and command line executable. Others have > tried to find similar software - a word processor you can telnet to > effectively - but there isn't a great deal out there. > > To bring this full circle I also connected a daisywheel printer (a JUKI > 6100) to the Ultra 5 and successfully printed out articles written in > WordPerfect. > > If I could find a language I was comfortable with and a PDP environment I'd > give writing a rudimentary word processor a go (think the kind of > application you might have found on a CBM-64 back in the day for example). > > Finally, TeX (or probably more likely LaTeX) is a great tool that easily > gets you hooked once you've had a play. It is *extremely* powerful so you > have to put a bit of effort in for anything fancy, but for banging out > letters you're in a straight ASCII text editor - no frills (or maybe > thrills?) required. Definitely requires a page-based printer however > (inkjet/laser) - happy to be proved wrong but unless you have an > application to print pixels on your daisywheel (it has been done mind!) > you're out of luck using that as an output device from LaTex (actually that > might be a bit harsh - lots of documentation systems can convert to LaTeX > and I remember a terminal based preview application so maybe there would be > a bit of milage in there but it would mostly be a clash of technologies I > feel). > > Mark. > > On 2 December 2014 at 14:00, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > I was seeking the "best" pdp11 prose text editing experience for typing > > in manuscripts, composing, letter writing, etc. (not programming > language - > > that was just a side effect of some editors actually being programming > > languages in and of themselves). > > > > Since this is such a highly relative subject, I expected a slew of > > answers and got them (thanks, all!). > > > > While not part of the originally-intended scope, the conversation has > > inspired me to at least try composing in TeX, which I've sort of meant to > > do for years, but never got a round tuit. Sounds like it'll stay out of > my > > way and allow me to just flow ideas and not even address layout until the > > end, which is, in essence, what I'm after. That said, I think the most > > convincing answer to my original question so far, not having actually > > reviewed them yet, is some kind of emacs, most likely Jove since it's > > already there in 2.xBSD and keeps me from having to mess with/re-learn > > other operating systems (oh, shoot!). As a side note, I used teco and > edt > > back when pdp11s running DEC operating systems were still being phased > out > > and found them to be unsatisfying; however, I do admit that I was an > > amateur at them. > > > > My other point here was to get the Diablo 630 going and have it type > > nice, letter-quality copy for me. Since my kid had a report due this > > morning, I caved and temporarily connected it to an old Sun machine and > > just threw lpd at it. Pretty straightforward: > > > > lpadmin -p diablo -v /dev/cua/b -o stty=300 -o banner=never > > enable diablo > > accept diablo > > > > So the thing's up and accepting jobs. Prints like a war zone :) !!! > > > > Once one of the '11s is up, on the net and stabilized, I'd like to have > it > > take over this role as well. > > > > > > > > thx again for all the discussion around this & feel welcome to continue > the > > thread! > > > > jake > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 2 08:56:51 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 09:56:51 -0500 Subject: TeX - was Re: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547DD333.2090106@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/12/14 9:53 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Yes, Mark, it was a poor old ultra5 that I used for the Diablo last night > as well, but running snv_65! That hardware, while pretty cheap and rafty, > does have a mysterious tendency to last a long time. > > I had thought TeX was line printer friendly at some point and only later > evolved to support matrix-type devices? No, it was designed for typesetters and bitmap printers, although people probably did hack dvi->ASCII previewers. You could still sorta read proofs that way... > > I had purchased Wordperfect for Linux some decades ago. It was quite > brittle, but mostly worked. Didn't try the cli version, just gui, which is > regrettable. iirc it was ported via java, so maybe my old copy would work > on other unixes (or whatever random java hosts) as well? > --Toby > On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Mark Wickens > wrote: > >> Jacob, I went along a similar journey with VAX to find a terminal based >> word processor. ... From phil at ultimate.com Tue Dec 2 09:06:45 2014 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:06:45 -0500 Subject: "There's no need to resurrect MC" (KL10 ITS) In-Reply-To: <876A8A2C-3D72-4AE9-94B0-22C222DD47B6@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <20141127160042.864CD18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <876A8A2C-3D72-4AE9-94B0-22C222DD47B6@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <201412021506.sB2F6jiV048920@ultimate.com> Daniel Seagraves wrote: > (Did MC become a model-B KL at some point?) so I might not have to deal with model-A vs. model-B differences. Or I can simply assume it was intended to run ITS on model B hardware and hack in support where required. I'm 99.44% sure MC was born, and stayed a "model A" ISTR someone looking at putting ITS support into the KL model B microcode (I can't remember if it was Alan Bawden at MIT, or Stu Grossman while at DEC). They decided not to, but I can't speak to why. The BIG difference between "A" and "B" is that the model B implements Extended Addressing. Section zero of an "Extended" KL should be largely identical to a non-extended KL. Later on One Word Global byte pointers were made to work in section zero. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Dec 2 09:35:08 2014 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:35:08 -0500 Subject: SWTPc computer lot currently on ebay... Message-ID: <40a801d00e45$8e398150$aaac83f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, Not going to bid on it myself, but if someone reading this should happen to win it, I have a fully functional Percom LFD-400 disk setup on my SWTPc. I would be happy to provide pointers, tips and measurements from my working system. Also, I would really like to get copies of the diskettes and documentation included in the lot. Thanks, Bill S. From Gary at realtimecomp.com Tue Dec 2 09:36:20 2014 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 15:36:20 +0000 Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8922DBA2834@SERVER.RealTime.local> > On 2 December 2014 at 14:00, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > I was seeking the "best" pdp11 prose text editing experience for > > typing in manuscripts, composing, letter writing, etc. (not > > programming language - that was just a side effect of some editors > > actually being programming languages in and of themselves). > > > > Since this is such a highly relative subject, I expected a slew of > > answers and got them (thanks, all!). > > > > While not part of the originally-intended scope, the conversation > > has inspired me to at least try composing in TeX, which I've sort of > > meant to do for years, but never got a round tuit. Sounds like it'll > > stay out of my way and allow me to just flow ideas and not even > > address layout until the end, which is, in essence, what I'm after. > > That said, I think the most convincing answer to my original question > > so far, not having actually reviewed them yet, is some kind of emacs, > > most likely Jove since it's already there in 2.xBSD and keeps me from > > having to mess with/re-learn other operating systems (oh, shoot!). As > > a side note, I used teco and edt back when pdp11s running DEC > > operating systems were still being phased out and found them to be > > unsatisfying; however, I do admit that I was an amateur at them. > > > > My other point here was to get the Diablo 630 going and have it type > > nice, letter-quality copy for me. Since my kid had a report due this > > morning, I caved and temporarily connected it to an old Sun machine > > and just threw lpd at it. Pretty straightforward: > > > > lpadmin -p diablo -v /dev/cua/b -o stty=300 -o banner=never enable > > diablo accept diablo > > > > So the thing's up and accepting jobs. Prints like a war zone :) !!! > > > > Once one of the '11s is up, on the net and stabilized, I'd like to > > have it take over this role as well. [Gary L. Messick] Did Mass-11 run on PDP's? My first job out of school was to support a mixed VAX/PC shop. I remember implementing a bridge between DECNet and Netware that also converted VAX Mass-11 documents to DOS WordPerfect. Ahhh, the fun times, the "Holy Wars" between the VAX and PC folks! NOT! Gary From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 2 09:46:41 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 07:46:41 -0800 Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94EB794B-F10D-4C41-B07D-7913059E48AC@aracnet.com> On Dec 2, 2014, at 6:29 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Jacob, I went along a similar journey with VAX to find a terminal based > word processor. I used ALLIN1 back in the day so knew that was a > possibility - the word processing module is a successor of WPS-8 called > WPS-PLUS - this was a stand-alone application for a while before ALLIN1 > came along. I've not gotten either of these running on my VMS systems. I should have a GUI based app running on my Alpha, but have mainly used DECdocument. DECdocument is what all the VMS documentation was written in, and is another programming language type solution. > What I have found is that terminal based word processing software is pretty > thin on the ground across the board. The other alternative I've played with > is WordPerfect for Unix. I have that running on a Sun Ultra 5 under Solaris > 2.9 - there is both a graphical and command line executable. Others have > tried to find similar software - a word processor you can telnet to > effectively - but there isn't a great deal out there. WordPerfect was available for VMS, but I've never seen an install kit in the wild. I know it was available on the VAX, not sure about Alpha, and I'm pretty sure it didn't make it to Itanium. I'm sure there are plenty of obscure solutions on both the PDP-11 and VMS sides, the problem is the companies that made them no longer exist, and in most cases the software itself likely no longer exists. Speaking of obscure solutions. I rather liked MUSE under VulcanOS on Harris minicomputers. I used that a *LOT* in the late 80's. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 2 09:56:01 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 07:56:01 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1, PDP-11/84 potentially available in Oregon In-Reply-To: <091C58D3-8267-438D-8275-36496507D765@kd7bcy.com> References: <091C58D3-8267-438D-8275-36496507D765@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2014, at 9:47 AM, John Rollins wrote: > On a side note, the PDP-11/84 may also be available soon. It's pretty bare bones and will likely need at a minimum a disk drive and controller. I used to have a list of the cards that were installed but I can't find it right now. I have a disk drive of some kind in the garage currently, I think it's an 8" floppy drive but I haven't looked at it closely, and it is in poor shape. The CPU rack in the basement is decent, just a broken spot weld on the door hinge which makes it hang loosely. Similar story When the time comes that you need it gone, if no one is interested in taking this, let me know. It would be easier to power than my PDP-11/44. I'm not worried about disks, I have a Viking UDT, and other disk controllers. I'm in the area, and can probably rescue it rather than seeing it go to scrape. Question, is it just the bare CPU chassis in the RACK? Zane From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Tue Dec 2 10:17:28 2014 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 08:17:28 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1, PDP-11/84 potentially available in Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <091C58D3-8267-438D-8275-36496507D765@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: <5C6738FD-830D-475F-83CF-ED1F41D2ABEE@kd7bcy.com> I have a couple of interested parties for both systems currently. I went through the PDP-11, and it has the following cards in it: M7677 YA M8190 AE M8637 BC M8637 EF M8191 M9302 and M7556 The ugly drive in the garage is an RX01. I will be working on moving both systems out of the basement in the coming week. On a side note, EcoBinary in Beaverton had a pair of factory sealed boxes labeled IBM Diskette 1 when I was out there yesterday. ------------ John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net ------------ From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 2 10:43:51 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:43:51 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547DEC47.5020005@pico-systems.com> On 12/01/2014 09:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 01/12/14 12:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was >> glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did >> get the >> job done. > > That's interesting. I wonder how it was ported - > presumably via the Pascal compiler. > Yes, exactly. Since this is all from 35-year old memory, I could be wrong. But, I THINK I did get it running on our 11/45 RSX-11M system. I think I ended up running a binary off a DECUS tape, as I was never able to get the whole TeX system to compile properly. I did get some other components to compile, I think, like metafont. It all worked a LOT better on the VAX, though. > I did web2C-based ports to Classic MacOS (inside MPW) and > Inmos Transputer; I'd have thought pdp-11 was quite a bit > too small for TeX. > It needed to swap a lot, and had a bunch of restrictions, as I recall. if you exceeded the restrictions, it would crash. But, then I may be TOTALLY mis-remembering what I did and didn't get working. I know I TINKERED with TeX on the 11/45, it is possible I never did get it to run on that system. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 2 10:51:28 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:51:28 -0600 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547D2C19.90805@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547DEE10.2090907@pico-systems.com> On 12/01/2014 11:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote > [about NS32K]: >> It was certainly a CISC design, and probably not as clean as the VAX >> architecture >> (although the number of addressing options on the VAX may have gone off the >> deep end also). > You haven't seen "off the deep end" CISC until you look at the Intel iAPX 432, > which makes the VAX architecture look lean and mean. Yes, I do KNOW about the iAPX 4/32, and know somebody who worked on one. Glacially slow. It was an ambitious project, and if object-oriented machine language was your thing, it was what you needed. But, as for a practical computer, it didn't make it. > For that matter, VAX was far simpler than x86 and x86_64 have become. Far cleaner, too! The PDP-11 instruction set was quite good, the VAX had to move all 3-bit fields up to 4 bits, so they had to come up with 16 addressing modes. I suspect some of them were so rarely used most programmers who even worked in assembly language didn't quite know what some of them did. The x86 is just a mess, like king Ludwig's castle. > And I wouldn't argue that it's CISC, but even the ARMv8 architecture manual is > over 2000 pages. I use the Beagle Board and Beagle Bone. The TI manual on the OMAP processors is VERY badly organized, and vastly larger than it really needs to be. For instance, where they have 100 essentially identical registers for GPIO configuration, they have them described on 100 nearly identical pages. One page with a description of how the addressing applies to the banks of registers would have been a LOT better. Jon From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Dec 2 11:04:20 2014 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 12:04:20 -0500 Subject: Somebody in Portland should save this... Message-ID: <40c101d00e52$0417f350$0c47d9f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Ohio Scientific business unit: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ele/4776461141.html From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 2 11:08:31 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 11:08:31 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> On 12/02/2014 07:20 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is > for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're after > it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word > processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily > control a terminal? > > I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly > Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. > > I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be interested if > there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. > > Our shop at the time (1975-1981 or so, for the PDP-11) used FORTRAN. I had a passion for Pascal, also got a Modula 2 compiler but never really moved to it. We then got a VAX 11/780, and I used them until the migration to the Alpha systems, and used those until the end of DEC. We continued to run one Alpha here until it became so obsolete that nobody would use it anymore. We were STILL mostly a FORTRAN shop. I created a few personal apps in Pascal. Now that I use Linux pretty exclusively, I have grudgingly accepted C. Recently, the Free Pascal Compiler (fpc) became available on Linux, and it is quite amazing. I ported over a Turbo Pascal for Windows app that ran on Windows 95/Win 2K to run on Linux in a couple days. It required some serious hacking to remove external hardware-specific parts that were no longer applicable, but the main thrust of FPC was to handle DEC and Borland Pascal extensions to the language well. They really did a good job! So, after a long time away from Pascal, it is again a viable language. I doubt I'd ever write a major app in Pascal again, but I could if I wanted. Well, none of the above really applies to the PDP-11! I will say that a major advantage with Pascal is that when I got a program to pass the compiler's syntax checking, it very often ran correctly the first time! It forces you to think logically, structure well, and doesn't have all the insane hidden syntactic screwups that C does. I still get called in at work to advise when C programs don't work right. I'm still discovering new ways that C code that looks perfectly correct can screw up horribly. Last one was yesterday. Boiling it down, we had : long long int A; int B; A = B << 32; This means that some field of B gets shifted to the right by 32 bits, and fit into the upper 32-bits of A. Now, any decent compiler should either extend B to the length of A, or as the C rules specify, NOT extend B, and therefor ought to warn you that it is losing significant bits. No warning, no extending the variable before shifting the bits off the end of the word. So, A always gets a zero! UGH! Stupid! I could almost write a book of these sorts of gotchas. Jon From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Tue Dec 2 11:08:41 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:08:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I was seeking the "best" pdp11 prose text editing experience for typing > in manuscripts, composing, letter writing, etc. (not programming language - > that was just a side effect of some editors actually being programming > languages in and of themselves). ... > reviewed them yet, is some kind of emacs, most likely Jove since it's > already there in 2.xBSD and keeps me from having to mess with/re-learn This is what we did on a pdp11 with Unix version 6 so at least this much could be done with 2.xBSD... In my youth we did typesetting on a pdp11/34 under Unix V6. We hired young ladies out of high school and taught them to write "troff" code using the "ed" line editor. The output of troff was sent to the ubiquitous CaT typesetter but the early proofing was done by sending nroff output to a line printer. The pdp11/34 could cope with maybe four to six people editing files at the same time but if somebody were going to ask troff to format a document then she called out to the other editors because one troff process is all that could be coped with. I still write everything in troff but I use big fat gnu emacs rather than ed which I have largely forgotten how to use. I have meant to port the pre-gnu troff/nroff to VMS for decades and never now and never got around to it. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 11:16:20 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 12:16:20 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Given the gloomy weather and speaking of porting, I just got bored and tried to compile /usr/src/games/rain.c from 2.11bsd on opensolaris using gcc3.44. It errored out with rain.c:61: error: parse error before '->' token. What's that all about? There's not even a pointer on that line: 61 float cols, lines; rain.c source here: http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/211bsd/usr/src/games/rain.c On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/02/2014 07:20 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > >> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is >> for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're after >> it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word >> processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily >> control a terminal? >> >> I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly >> Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. >> >> I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be interested if >> there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. >> >> >> Our shop at the time (1975-1981 or so, for the PDP-11) used FORTRAN. I > had a passion > for Pascal, also got a Modula 2 compiler but never really moved to it. We > then got a > VAX 11/780, and I used them until the migration to the Alpha systems, and > used > those until the end of DEC. We continued to run one Alpha here until it > became so > obsolete that nobody would use it anymore. We were STILL mostly a FORTRAN > shop. I created a few personal apps in Pascal. > > Now that I use Linux pretty exclusively, I have grudgingly accepted C. > Recently, > the Free Pascal Compiler (fpc) became available on Linux, and it is quite > amazing. I ported over a Turbo Pascal for Windows app that ran on Windows > 95/Win 2K to run on Linux in a couple days. It required some serious > hacking > to remove external hardware-specific parts that were no longer applicable, > but the main thrust of FPC was to handle DEC and Borland Pascal extensions > to the language well. They really did a good job! So, after a long time > away > from Pascal, it is again a viable language. I doubt I'd ever write a major > app in Pascal again, but I could if I wanted. > > Well, none of the above really applies to the PDP-11! I will say that a > major > advantage with Pascal is that when I got a program to pass the compiler's > syntax checking, it very often ran correctly the first time! It forces you > to think logically, structure well, and doesn't have all the insane hidden > syntactic screwups that C does. I still get called in at work to advise > when C programs don't work right. I'm still discovering new ways that > C code that looks perfectly correct can screw up horribly. Last one was > yesterday. > > Boiling it down, we had : > > long long int A; > int B; > A = B << 32; > > This means that some field of B gets shifted to the right by 32 bits, and > fit into the upper 32-bits of A. > > Now, any decent compiler should either extend B to the length of A, or > as the C rules specify, NOT extend B, and therefor ought to warn you > that it is losing significant bits. No warning, no extending the variable > before shifting the bits off the end of the word. So, A always gets > a zero! UGH! Stupid! I could almost write a book of these sorts > of gotchas. > > Jon > From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 11:24:44 2014 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 12:24:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hmm.. I think the actual line its complaining about is : setbuf(stdout,malloc(BUFSIZ)); Did the signature for setbuf() change between 2.11bsd and OpenSolaris? Keep in mind - free advise, and you get what you pay for.. Todd Killingsworth On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Given the gloomy weather and speaking of porting, I just got bored and > tried to compile /usr/src/games/rain.c from 2.11bsd on opensolaris using > gcc3.44. It errored out with rain.c:61: error: parse error before '->' > token. What's that all about? There's not even a pointer on that line: > 61 float cols, lines; > > rain.c source here: http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/211bsd/usr/src/games/rain.c > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > On 12/02/2014 07:20 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > > > >> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language > is > >> for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're > after > >> it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word > >> processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily > >> control a terminal? > >> > >> I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly > >> Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. > >> > >> I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be interested > if > >> there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. > >> > >> > >> Our shop at the time (1975-1981 or so, for the PDP-11) used FORTRAN. I > > had a passion > > for Pascal, also got a Modula 2 compiler but never really moved to it. > We > > then got a > > VAX 11/780, and I used them until the migration to the Alpha systems, and > > used > > those until the end of DEC. We continued to run one Alpha here until it > > became so > > obsolete that nobody would use it anymore. We were STILL mostly a > FORTRAN > > shop. I created a few personal apps in Pascal. > > > > Now that I use Linux pretty exclusively, I have grudgingly accepted C. > > Recently, > > the Free Pascal Compiler (fpc) became available on Linux, and it is quite > > amazing. I ported over a Turbo Pascal for Windows app that ran on > Windows > > 95/Win 2K to run on Linux in a couple days. It required some serious > > hacking > > to remove external hardware-specific parts that were no longer > applicable, > > but the main thrust of FPC was to handle DEC and Borland Pascal > extensions > > to the language well. They really did a good job! So, after a long time > > away > > from Pascal, it is again a viable language. I doubt I'd ever write a > major > > app in Pascal again, but I could if I wanted. > > > > Well, none of the above really applies to the PDP-11! I will say that a > > major > > advantage with Pascal is that when I got a program to pass the compiler's > > syntax checking, it very often ran correctly the first time! It forces > you > > to think logically, structure well, and doesn't have all the insane > hidden > > syntactic screwups that C does. I still get called in at work to advise > > when C programs don't work right. I'm still discovering new ways that > > C code that looks perfectly correct can screw up horribly. Last one was > > yesterday. > > > > Boiling it down, we had : > > > > long long int A; > > int B; > > A = B << 32; > > > > This means that some field of B gets shifted to the right by 32 bits, and > > fit into the upper 32-bits of A. > > > > Now, any decent compiler should either extend B to the length of A, or > > as the C rules specify, NOT extend B, and therefor ought to warn you > > that it is losing significant bits. No warning, no extending the > variable > > before shifting the bits off the end of the word. So, A always gets > > a zero! UGH! Stupid! I could almost write a book of these sorts > > of gotchas. > > > > Jon > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 2 10:01:10 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 08:01:10 -0800 Subject: SMD replacement options? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547DE246.2030602@bitsavers.org> On 12/1/14 10:27 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: > I can't believe someone hasn't built some sort of > adapter from -to-SMD that isn't ridiculously priced... > I'm guessing there will be something based on David's Beagle Bone board coming since he told me someone was working on a design. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Dec 2 12:22:32 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 19:22:32 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141202182232.GB10871@beast.freibergnet.de> Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Given the gloomy weather and speaking of porting, I just got bored and > tried to compile /usr/src/games/rain.c from 2.11bsd on opensolaris using > gcc3.44. It errored out with rain.c:61: error: parse error before '->' > token. What's that all about? There's not even a pointer on that line: > 61 float cols, lines; > > rain.c source here: http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/211bsd/usr/src/games/rain.c > Tell us what you see when you use the C-preprocessor only on that file: gcc -E rain.c |less and then search in the output for setbuf: float cols, lines; setbuf(__stdoutp,malloc(1024)); if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { ..like this. This is FreeBSD here and you can see that setbuf handles a pointer.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 2 12:26:09 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 19:26:09 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-02 14:20, Mark Wickens wrote: > Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is > for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're after > it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word > processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily > control a terminal? > > I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly > Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. > > I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be interested if > there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C isn't the best I've seen. FORTRAN-77? BASIC+2? The list goes on... Personally I might have done it in MACRO-11 as well. :-) Johnny > > Mark. > > On 2 December 2014 at 03:36, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 01/12/14 12:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> On 11/30/2014 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Umm, I'm "pretty sure" I had TeX running on RSX-11M. It was >>> glacially slow, as in taking minutes per page, but it did get the >>> job done. >>> >> >> That's interesting. I wonder how it was ported - presumably via the Pascal >> compiler. >> >> I did web2C-based ports to Classic MacOS (inside MPW) and Inmos >> Transputer; I'd have thought pdp-11 was quite a bit too small for TeX. >> >> If you recall any more details, I'd be interested - I might attempt a new >> PDP-11 port. >> >> --Toby >> >> >> >>> It ran a lot better, of course, on a VAX. >> >>> >>> Word processing doesn't get any better than TeX, I still use >>> it under Linux. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >> From rhirst at xkl.com Tue Dec 2 12:42:13 2014 From: rhirst at xkl.com (Roy Hirst) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:42:13 -0800 Subject: 36bit still in use ? Message-ID: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> I'm Roy Hirst, a hobbyist new to the list - today is my day 1 - and I currently work for XKL LLC. I'd like to contribute where I can to this and other conversations on cctalk. XKL makes a line of optical networking systems, think 10x10GE in 1RU. A system has two planes, a (1) traffic plane where client equipment (e.g. "server") traffic gets aggregated to DWDM channels on a single optical fiber, and (2) a management plane that, er, manages remote config, real-time failover, OS field upgrades, etc. The planes are independent and you can reboot the OS after an upgrade without affecting packet traffic. The emphasis is on reliability, resilience, configurability,. We have had DWDM systems running 5 years without incident using these backplanes. The TOAD-2 is looked back on here with affection, some of the original architects and engineers are still around, and memory systems and interfaces have been under continuous development and extension since TOAD-2 days. I am not sure if you used to work here you would recognize it now. Is still 36-bit,? Yes. Roy -- *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 2 12:43:09 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:43:09 -0800 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547E083D.2030205@sydex.com> On 12/02/2014 10:26 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C > isn't the best I've seen. FORTRAN-77? BASIC+2? The list goes on... > Personally I might have done it in MACRO-11 as well. :-) DIBOL. :) --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Dec 2 12:45:33 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 19:45:33 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> Jon Elson wrote: [..] > > Boiling it down, we had : > > long long int A; > int B; > A = B << 32; > > This means that some field of B gets shifted to the right by > 32 bits, and > fit into the upper 32-bits of A. > > Now, any decent compiler should either extend B to the > length of A, or > as the C rules specify, NOT extend B, and therefor ought to > warn you > that it is losing significant bits. No warning, no > extending the variable > before shifting the bits off the end of the word. So, A > always gets > a zero! UGH! Stupid! I could almost write a book of these > sorts > of gotchas. > > Jon No, thats not stupid. Nobody says that the compiler should think about your code. You clearly shift the int variable 32 times to the left and the compiler is warning you.. BTW: there are some standards in stdint.h that clarify up a lot which tpe has how many bits, eg int32_t int64_t uint8_t. On my system int is 64 Bits and a long long is 128 bits, for shure your code will work here, bit your code isn't portable! It doesn't work on a 32 Bit system and it doesn't work on 16 or 8 Bit machines. C is much like Assembler, you should know what you really want todo. The comiler let you do all kind of things with the assumption that you know what you are doing. This is a programming language for system programming purposes (written to write Unix) where you have to load unusual registers and such things... How about this: A = (int64_t)B << 32; Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 2 12:46:05 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202182232.GB10871@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202182232.GB10871@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201412021846.NAA28745@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It errored out with rain.c:61: error: parse error before '->' token. >> What's that all about? There's not even a pointer on that line: >> 61 float cols, lines; According to less over here, that's line 59. Line 61 is the setbuf() call just below. My guess would be that there's some macro substitution causing trouble. I'd say Holm's suggestion of looking at preprocessor output is a good one. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 2 12:47:03 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 19:47:03 +0100 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E083D.2030205@sydex.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> <547E083D.2030205@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547E0927.4040804@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-02 19:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/02/2014 10:26 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C >> isn't the best I've seen. FORTRAN-77? BASIC+2? The list goes on... >> Personally I might have done it in MACRO-11 as well. :-) > > DIBOL. :) COBOL. Or FOCAL! :-) I also have XLISP. Forth. SIMULA-2. I can't even remember all languages that exist... Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 2 13:03:07 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:03:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > The first non-PDP-10 port was written in MACLISP for Multics--a 36-bit > architecture!--by Bernie Greenberg Depends on what you define as 'EMACS'... :-) The PDP-11 TECO with real-time display mode which I was talking about earlier had, when in real-time mode, a command on every single control character, most of them the same as EMACS. (E.g. typing ^U^K would kill 4 lines, from the point onward.) And you could write custom code for it. (In TECO, no less!) But it didn't have the rich command set of EMACS (although as of that date, EMACS was still in a bit of flux - many people still had their own private macros/command sets - MOON's was famously different). According to: http://www.multicians.org/mepap.html (which is a very nice, complete, history of Multics Emacs, BTW), Multics Emacs didn't run until March, 1978; the PDP-11 real-time display TECO was running well before that. (We all used ITS some, for ARPANET email, etc, so we wanted the same kind of powerful editing tool.) Not that it really matters any more - just trying to be historically accurate! > From: Jerome H. Fine > Since the "Subject" specified "word processing software", I assumed > that would exclude TECO which I regard as a "text editor" Two words: 'topic drift'! :-) Hey, just responding to other messages (e.g. above). > From: Chuck Guzis > DIBOL. :) Hey, if you're running one of the later 11's, the ones with CIS, reputedly DIBOL runs _really fast_ on them! (Well, fast for an -11... :-) Noel From roeapeterson at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 13:03:56 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:03:56 -0600 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 2, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > still discovering new ways that > C code that looks perfectly correct can screw up horribly. Last one was > yesterday. > > Boiling it down, we had : > > long long int A; > int B; > A = B << 32; > > This means that some field of B gets shifted to the right by 32 bits, and > fit into the upper 32-bits of A. > > Now, any decent compiler should either extend B to the length of A, or > as the C rules specify, NOT extend B, and therefor ought to warn you > that it is losing significant bits. No warning, no extending the variable > before shifting the bits off the end of the word. So, A always gets > a zero! UGH! Stupid! I could almost write a book of these sorts > of gotchas. Hmm. What C compiler did this, on what distro? I'm pretty sure that this throws a compiler warning in gcc with -Wall... > > Jon From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 13:11:24 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:11:24 -0500 Subject: rain.c Message-ID: setbuf((&__iob[1]),malloc(1024)); if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > > Given the gloomy weather and speaking of porting, I just got bored and > > tried to compile /usr/src/games/rain.c from 2.11bsd on opensolaris using > > gcc3.44. It errored out with rain.c:61: error: parse error before '->' > > token. What's that all about? There's not even a pointer on that line: > > 61 float cols, lines; > > > > rain.c source here: > http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/211bsd/usr/src/games/rain.c > > > > Tell us what you see when you use the C-preprocessor only on that file: > > gcc -E rain.c |less > > and then search in the output for setbuf: > > > float cols, lines; > > setbuf(__stdoutp,malloc(1024)); > if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { > > > ..like this. > > This is FreeBSD here and you can see that setbuf handles a pointer.. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 13:14:59 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 12:14:59 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: <547DEE10.2090907@pico-systems.com> References: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547D2C19.90805@pico-systems.com> <547DEE10.2090907@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/01/2014 11:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> You haven't seen "off the deep end" CISC until you look at the Intel iAPX >> 432, >> which makes the VAX architecture look lean and mean. > > Yes, I do KNOW about the iAPX 4/32, and know somebody who worked on one. Now you know two people who worked with them. > Glacially slow. "Glacially" is overstating it. It was slow. If it had shipped two years earlier, as originally intended, the performance would have been somewhat more in line with expectations. > and if object-oriented machine language > was your thing, it was what you needed. Not really. It turned out not to be what anyone needed for anything. That resulted in the P7 RISC design, still with some object-oriented features. The P7 ultimately became the i960. (Note that Intel has reused the "P7" designation for other things since.) >> And I wouldn't argue that it's CISC, but even the ARMv8 architecture >> manual is >> over 2000 pages. > > I use the Beagle Board and Beagle Bone. The TI manual on the OMAP > processors > is VERY badly organized, and vastly larger than it really needs to be. I'm not talking about a manual for a specific chip with a bunch of I/O. Those are routinely over 1000 pages, and don't include the CPU architecture. What I'm referring to is the manual for *only* the ARMv8 CPU architecture, and it is 2000 pages, with little of the redundancy of SoC manuals. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 2 13:22:20 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 11:22:20 -0800 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547E116C.2090702@sydex.com> On 12/02/2014 11:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > DIBOL. :) > > Hey, if you're running one of the later 11's, the ones with CIS, reputedly > DIBOL runs _really fast_ on them! (Well, fast for an -11... :-) It's interesting that a quick web lookup on DiBOL tends toward the opinion that it was Digital's attempt at a reduced COBOL. I never though so--it looks more like BASIC to me. Early in the 70s, Xerox was looking at a small-business microcomputer system, called "Merchant". I don't think it ever escaped development; it used an 8080 and had an implementation of DiBOL. The idea was to use the established base of DiBOL application. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 2 13:28:01 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 11:28:01 -0800 Subject: Nat Semi ns32k, was Re: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <20141201173208.88AE718C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547D2C19.90805@pico-systems.com> <547DEE10.2090907@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547E12C1.3070208@sydex.com> On 12/02/2014 11:14 AM, Eric Smith wrote: (IRT: i432) > "Glacially" is overstating it. It was slow. If it had shipped two years > earlier, as originally intended, the performance would have been > somewhat more in line with expectations. Not so much slow, but incredibly expensive for the delivered performance. We got regular pitches for the "soon to be real" i432 as the answer to our 16 bit queries (this was about 1978). After awhile, the mentions became less and less frequent and we were put on the i80186 pre-production customer base. The odd thing was that almost no mention was made of the 8086. At that time, the only reaction from "fast Eddie" our Intel sales rep, was a roll of the eyeballs. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 2 13:33:52 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 11:33:52 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> > On Dec 1, 2014, at 21:48 , tony duell wrote: > > It is not uncommon for the vertical shift control to apply a DC bias to the yoke, and thus the output amplifier > stage could still be the problem. Thanks, that's good to know. I don't have a lot of experience with analog monitor circuits yet. > Do you have a URL for this manual? I might give it a look and see if I can deduce anything. I found it here: http://elektrotanya.com/aoc_adc_commodore_1950_cm314_monitor.pdf/download.html I'll appreciate any insight you might offer, because I'm not very good at making sense of monitor circuitry yet. My first suspect is IC401, followed by possibly IC402 or IC553. > >> have been designed to be slapped together without much consideration of service accessibility, and the service > > That is quite normal, alas. Yes, and it's a big part of the reason that I haven't been motivated to get much experience fixing monitors so far! I had previous bad experience trying to fix a 19" Hitachi monitor for my Sun 3/60 20ish years ago (thought I had it narrowed down to a $70 transistor; replacement blew, too; ended up taking it to a shop and paying real money for somebody with a clue to fix it). I did have much better experience with a DEC VR201 recently. Its circuitry was a lot easier to get to for maintenance, and it had a simple failure mode: Blew its fuse immediately. So I powered it through a current-limited supply and started looking for hot spots with my IR thermometer. Hottest spot was a diode feeding power to a subcircuit, and second-hottest spot was a capacitor from that power rail to ground. Replaced the cap, monitor became happy. > Older Commodore monitors were Philips inside. I have an idea this 1950 is an AOC chassis, but I might > be wrong. You're right: It's an AOC CM314. I'll try calling AOC shortly on the slim chance that some old-timer might have a dusty pile of documentation in his or her office. If not, one of the notable surplus dealers on our list has contacted me about possibly supplying a working monitor. Finally, there's a 1950 on eBay, but I'll look for cheaper options first. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 2 13:40:09 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 11:40:09 -0800 Subject: Tandon TM-848E Normal Behavior? In-Reply-To: <018901d00df5$b8eb4780$2ac1d680$@net> References: <015501d00db9$15245d80$3f6d1880$@net> <547CF676.70306@sydex.com> <018901d00df5$b8eb4780$2ac1d680$@net> Message-ID: > On Dec 1, 2014, at 22:03 , Ali wrote: > Mark, > > Do you know, or have any experience, with reliability of the brushless vs. > belt driven? My bet would be on the brushless motor (the belt being the weak > point) but you never know. I haven't been in the retrocomputing game long enough to get a feel for that yet, and 8" drives were already on the way out when I started getting original experience back in the day. My gut feeling is that the direct drives ought to have more reliable spindle drive systems and less RPM flutter. There are also other considerations, though; for example, on the TM848, it's not as easy to get access to the heads for Q-tip cleaning as it is on some of the older, bulkier drives, so an older drive might be more practical for imaging lots of questionable old disks that are likely to shed oxide. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 2 13:45:53 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 11:45:53 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <08564935-A8B8-4D7A-AE2F-C7E329C538B4@nf6x.net> > On Dec 2, 2014, at 11:33 , Mark J. Blair wrote: > I'll try calling AOC shortly on the slim chance that some old-timer might have a dusty pile of documentation in his or her office. Well, it was a long shot, and it missed. The friendly tech support agent at AOC wasn't able to help me with this 24 year old monitor. At least we had a good chuckle over it. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 2 13:50:55 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 19:50:55 +0000 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> , <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > > Do you have a URL for this manual? I might give it a look and see if I can deduce anything. > > I found it here: > > http://elektrotanya.com/aoc_adc_commodore_1950_cm314_monitor.pdf/download.html > > I'll appreciate any insight you might offer, because I'm not very good at making sense of monitor circuitry yet. > My first suspect is IC401, followed by possibly IC402 or IC553. OK, got it... What a confusing manual. It's roughly what I would expect a service manual to be (schematics, parts lists, some faultfinding info) but it is not well organised... Perhaps I am spoilt by HP and Barco manuals :-) > > You're right: It's an AOC CM314. I'll try calling AOC shortly on the slim chance that some old-timer might have a > dusty pile of documentation in his or her office. If not, one of the notable surplus dealers on our list has > contacted me about possibly supplying a working monitor. Finally, there's a 1950 on eBay, but I'll look for > cheaper options first. AOC is 'Admiral of China' IIRC. I remember reading about US-made Admiral radios and TVs from the 1950s. I guess this is a far eastern company that got the name. To me IC401 looks like a sync processor/oscillator. IC402 looks like the vertical output stage. I think pin 2 of IC402 is the output, pin 4 may well be the drive input (maybe a ramp voltage here? D404 and C410 may well be that boost circuit I mentioned and are worth checking first. Maybe then change IC402 if you can get one. -tony -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From scaron at umich.edu Tue Dec 2 13:58:12 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:58:12 -0500 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > Yes, and it's a big part of the reason that I haven't been motivated to > get much experience fixing monitors so far! I had previous bad experience > trying to fix a 19" Hitachi monitor for my Sun 3/60 20ish years ago > (thought I had it narrowed down to a $70 transistor; replacement blew, too; > ended up taking it to a shop and paying real money for somebody with a clue > to fix it). > > I did have much better experience with a DEC VR201 recently. Its circuitry > was a lot easier to get to for maintenance, and it had a simple failure > mode: Blew its fuse immediately. So I powered it through a current-limited > supply and started looking for hot spots with my IR thermometer. Hottest > spot was a diode feeding power to a subcircuit, and second-hottest spot was > a capacitor from that power rail to ground. Replaced the cap, monitor > became happy. > > When I was in high school and was just coming up in the field, I had the opportunity to work at a local computer repair shop in the area that maintained the ability to do board-level repair (ca. late 90s). There was a guy there who was just brilliant at repairing monitors... I imagine he had been doing it for a while so he probably had a good idea of all the tricks of the trade and things to look out for but I was always impressed... I felt like there was maybe a bit of art to the whole process. I don't recall there ever being a monitor he couldn't fix given parts availability and the budget for T&M. Certainly watching him do it emboldened me, LOL. I remember taking on a totally generic 15" VGA display from a trash heap some time ago and I got lucky... easy fix... cold solder joint or a burnt out resistor or something that you could just pick up visually. Sometimes it turns out to be easy stuff! Too bad not in this case! I have a Sony GDM17 that's been sitting torn apart on my bench forever that needs a new cable spliced onto it, and one of my NeXT Megapixel Color Displays has pooped out on me so that will have to go under the knife someday. Not to mention my VT100! Yikes. I definitely enjoy the discussion of diagnosis & repair of the analog side of things. Many things to learn! Best, Sean From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 2 14:08:59 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 20:08:59 +0000 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> , <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net>, Message-ID: Sorry to follow up my own post > Maybe then change IC402 if you can get one. Looks like a Sanyo LA7841 may be the same thing. That crosses to NTE7153 -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 2 14:21:54 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 12:21:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> > > long long int A; > > int B; > > A = B << 32; > Hmm. What C compiler did this, on what distro? I'm pretty sure that > this throws a compiler warning in gcc with -Wall... WARNING. NOT ERROR. I always advised my students to turn up warnings to the max, but many didn't want to. And, are you aware of what some intel chips will do if you ask them to shift 33 bits? (anything >32) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 14:29:46 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 15:29:46 -0500 Subject: rain.c Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Tell us what you see when you use the C-preprocessor only on that file: > > gcc -E rain.c |less > > and then search in the output for setbuf: > > > float cols, lines; > > setbuf(__stdoutp,malloc(1024)); > if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { > ok, Holm, on OpenSolaris, gcc -E rain.c |less gives: float cols, cur_term-> _c3; setbuf((&__iob[1]),malloc(1024)); if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { I think that means it worked, right? --jake From scaron at umich.edu Tue Dec 2 14:36:50 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 15:36:50 -0500 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I like C a lot. Perhaps some folks prefer a higher level of abstraction but I find it nice to have almost the same power as assembly language to get down and dirty with the hardware, while simultaneously knocking off most things that make programming in assembly tedious, and allowing a modicum of higher-level expression i.e types, structures and functions. It will do exactly what you ask, no more, no less! Sometimes this gets people (myself included) in trouble, but it's always a learning experience :) As an EE (a degenerate one, but I graduated, LOL) I find it expressive. Like Plan 9 (er, UNIX) I think it's a testament to the brilliance of K&R... they just always cut through all of the nonsense and give you something that is... elegantly simple? Best, Sean On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > long long int A; > > > int B; > > > A = B << 32; > > Hmm. What C compiler did this, on what distro? I'm pretty sure that > > this throws a compiler warning in gcc with -Wall... > > WARNING. NOT ERROR. > I always advised my students to turn up warnings to the max, but many > didn't want to. > > > And, are you aware of what some intel chips will do if you ask them to > shift 33 bits? (anything >32) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 2 14:04:48 2014 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:04:48 +0000 (WET) Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:09:41 +0000 (WET)" <01PFM7NVLFQC004Q19@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20141201220305.6AF4518C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01PFNHTC7F1K003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Somebody wrote (probably me): > >> >> > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and very few find it a >> > problem. >> > or >> > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and there are very few >> > people subscribed to cctech! >> >>I rather suspect it's 2B...: -) >> > >2B or not 2B, that is the question :-) > >If it is 2B then the moderators were going to a lot of trouble for the benefit >of very few and since the reincarnation, they have been completely wasting >their time :-( > >> >> > So, I subscribed to cctalk (with the same address I use for cctech >> > which on reflection may not have been a good idea) >> >>I think you've hit the nail on the head... >> > >I'll try a different address then. > So here's what I did. I created a new email address at my end and subscribed it to cctech. It behaved just like my old email address ie it got two copies of most emails, one from the cctalk list and one a bit later from the cctech list after approval by the moderator. Anyone who has been following along may recall that my old email address was originally subscribed to cctech, I had tried to unsubscribe it from cctalk in an attempt to eliminate the duplicates but this didn't work as it was not subscribed. I then tried subscribing it to cctalk which seemed to work but made no visible impact on what mail arrived - things went on as before. Now I tried unsubscribing the old address from cctalk, expecting this to make no difference. It did make a difference. The unsubscribe was successful and the old address stopped receiving any mail from either list! More confused than ever, I unsubscribed both the old and the new addresses from cctech (successfully in both cases) leaving nothing here subscribed to anything and then subscribed the new address to cctalk. Now the new address is receiving one copy only of each email, from the cctalk list only ie no duplicates. Except for this one message which came in from both lists and unusually arrived in from cctech first... Right now I'm ignoring it and hoping it will go away :-) At least it's a lot less than nearly every mail duplicated. Is there anyone out there who is subscribed to cctech and not getting most mails duplicated? If not, the moderators might as well take a break and stop approving stuff until the problem is fixed. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Dec 2 15:27:37 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 16:27:37 -0500 Subject: rain.c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141202212737.GH31120@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Jacob Ritorto [141202 15:29]: > On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > > Tell us what you see when you use the C-preprocessor only on that file: > > > > gcc -E rain.c |less > > > > and then search in the output for setbuf: > > > > > > float cols, lines; > > > > setbuf(__stdoutp,malloc(1024)); > > if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { > > > > ok, Holm, on OpenSolaris, gcc -E rain.c |less gives: > > > float cols, cur_term-> _c3; > > setbuf((&__iob[1]),malloc(1024)); > if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { > > > I think that means it worked, right? > > --jake This means that you there's an active #define lines cur_term-> _c3 preprocessor directive around (or some preprocessor directives that reduce to that.) Todd From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 2 15:38:37 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 21:38:37 +0000 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:03 AM >> From: Rich Alderson >> The first non-PDP-10 port was written in MACLISP for Multics--a 36-bit >> architecture!--by Bernie Greenberg > Depends on what you define as 'EMACS'... :-) The PDP-11 TECO with real-time > display mode which I was talking about earlier had, when in real-time mode, a > command on every single control character, most of them the same as EMACS. > (E.g. typing ^U^K would kill 4 lines, from the point onward.) And you could > write custom code for it. (In TECO, no less!) But it didn't have the rich > command set of EMACS (although as of that date, EMACS was still in a bit of > flux - many people still had their own private macros/command sets - MOON's > was famously different). > According to: > http://www.multicians.org/mepap.html > (which is a very nice, complete, history of Multics Emacs, BTW), Multics Emacs > didn't run until March, 1978; the PDP-11 real-time display TECO was running > well before that. (We all used ITS some, for ARPANET email, etc, so we wanted > the same kind of powerful editing tool.) > Not that it really matters any more - just trying to be historically accurate! Thank you. I appreciate the correction. I admit to a bias towards the PDP-10 and other big iron in my own career, so I bow to one who was there! I used Multics Emacs when I was given the project of putting the University of Chicago on an MMDF-based phone network sponsored by EDUCOM and called EDUnet. MIT-MULTICS was the hub for the system, so I had an account there and was very happy to find my favorite editor available. That was 1983-84, after which I moved to Stanford. The rest, as they say, is boring old stuff^W^W^Whistory. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 2 16:04:12 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 22:04:12 +0000 Subject: Summary: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D148DF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jacob Ritorto Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 6:53 AM > I had thought TeX was line printer friendly at some point and only later > evolved to support matrix-type devices? TeX was originally developed to produce output on a digital typesetting system (whose name is escaping me right now) which produced output at more than 4500 dots/inch. Everything else is a development from that. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 2 16:07:28 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:07:28 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <, > <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 2, 2014, at 11:50 , tony duell wrote: > > OK, got it... What a confusing manual. It's roughly what I would expect a service manual to be > (schematics, parts lists, some faultfinding info) but it is not well organised... Perhaps I am spoilt > by HP and Barco manuals :-) Good, it's not just me being dense then. :) I'd imagine it makes more sense to somebody who has seen a lot of monitor circuits, but I have a tough time making sense of it without some additional hand-holding. > > To me IC401 looks like a sync processor/oscillator. IC402 looks like the vertical output stage. That's pretty much what my guess was. Some of the components south of IC401 look like they might be something like PLL filter components, and my guess was that IC401 is probably responsible for generating the vertical ramp. I didn't probe it beyond the DC voltage checks mentioned by the troubleshooting chart, though, because it's a bit hard to get to without major disassembly. > I think pin 2 of IC402 is the output, pin 4 may well be the drive input (maybe a ramp voltage > here? I might as well tack on a test point wire or three while it's discharged and then poke around to see if anything ramp-like is coming out of IC401. I had assumed that the vertical drive must be fine since I can adjust the centering of the scan line, but I suppose that the bias circuit to the final drive transistors could still be good with the previous driver stage being bad. And especially since you have identified a possible cross for IC402 in your next message, so I might actually be able to replace it if it's bad! > D404 and C410 may well be that boost circuit I mentioned and are worth checking first. > Maybe then change IC402 if you can get one. Sounds like a plan. I still have the fall-back plan of getting another monitor to play Frankenstein with from Cindy or eBay, but it'll be great if I can fix the monitor that I already have. Page 37 of the manual recommended checking for 24VDC at pin 3 of IC402, which also connects to the junction of D404 and C110. I probed it with my DMM at C410 since that was easier to get to with the monitor assembled, and I did find 24V there. Next (maybe tonight if I'm not too tired after work) I'll try probing that probably drive input to see if IC401 is generating a ramp. If I see a ramp, then I'll try digging up a replacement for IC402. If any experienced monitor experts can suggest possible identities for IC401, that would sure help! It wouldn't surprise me if it's a fairly common part monitor working incognito in this monitor. If I do manage to fix this beast, then I should write up what I've learned on my blog so that maybe the next person trying to fix a similar monitor will stumble across my notes. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From roeapeterson at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 16:11:57 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 16:11:57 -0600 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> On Dec 2, 2014, at 2:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> long long int A; >>> int B; >>> A = B << 32; >> Hmm. What C compiler did this, on what distro? I'm pretty sure that >> this throws a compiler warning in gcc with -Wall... > > WARNING. NOT ERROR. Right, as I said. So long as no syntax or linking issue prevents compilation, I wouldn't expect the C compiler to error out, but (if requested) generate a warning. C does not attempt to prevent programmer bungling, just programmer impossibility :-) > I always advised my students to turn up warnings to the max, but many > didn't want to. Back in the day, many beginning programmers (like me) poopooed lint, too, despite the 10 rules of computer programming cf. Henry Spencer. > > > And, are you aware of what some intel chips will do if you ask them to > shift 33 bits? (anything >32) No, but I imagine it could be spectacular. The history of computing has a bunch of stories regarding grim results when trying to execute impossible or unimplemented instructions. From random832 at fastmail.us Tue Dec 2 16:35:07 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 17:35:07 -0500 Subject: rain.c In-Reply-To: <20141202212737.GH31120@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20141202212737.GH31120@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <1417559707.2538267.198042477.27354DEF@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, Dec 2, 2014, at 16:27, Todd Goodman wrote: > This means that you there's an active > > #define lines cur_term-> _c3 > > preprocessor directive around (or some preprocessor directives that > reduce to that.) > > Todd Fortunately, google has the answer in the form of someone else who has had the problem: https://github.com/surban/slurm/blob/master/src/smap/smap.h /* * On some systems (read AIX), curses.h includes term.h which does this * #define lines cur_term-> _c3 * This makes the symbol "lines" unusable. There is a similar #define * "columns", "bell", "tone", "pulse", "hangup" and many, many more!! */ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 2 16:47:07 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:47:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> > > And, are you aware of what some intel chips will do if you ask them to > > shift 33 bits? (anything >32) On Tue, 2 Dec 2014, Roe Peterson wrote: > No, but I imagine it could be spectacular. The history of computing has > a bunch of stories regarding grim results when trying to execute > impossible or unimplemented instructions. Generally most of us assume that a shift or rotate of N bits is the same as doing the shift or rotate 1 bit, N times. Rotate N bits [for 8 bit, 16 bit and 32 bit numbers] gives the same results as rotating N modulus 32 (or N AND 1Fh). Using only those "relevant" bits of N eliminates some wasted time V doing the actual number requested. BUT, that performance improvement was also applied to SHIFTS! Shifting a 32 bit number 33 bits resulted in a 1 bit shift V clearing it. NOTE: shifting is not always the fastest or best way to clear a number. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 2 16:46:44 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:46:44 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <, > <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3F59E723-EB12-46EF-9016-CB0ABA54EF73@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Dec-02, at 2:07 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 11:50 , tony duell wrote: > ... > >> I think pin 2 of IC402 is the output, pin 4 may well be the drive input (maybe a ramp voltage >> here? > > I might as well tack on a test point wire or three while it's discharged and then poke around to see if anything ramp-like is coming out of IC401. I had assumed that the vertical drive must be fine since I can adjust the centering of the scan line, but I suppose that the bias circuit to the final drive transistors could still be good with the previous driver stage being bad. And especially since you have identified a possible cross for IC402 in your next message, so I might actually be able to replace it if it's bad! > >> D404 and C410 may well be that boost circuit I mentioned and are worth checking first. >> Maybe then change IC402 if you can get one. > > Sounds like a plan. I still have the fall-back plan of getting another monitor to play Frankenstein with from Cindy or eBay, but it'll be great if I can fix the monitor that I already have. > > Page 37 of the manual recommended checking for 24VDC at pin 3 of IC402, which also connects to the junction of D404 and C110. I probed it with my DMM at C410 since that was easier to get to with the monitor assembled, and I did find 24V there. Next (maybe tonight if I'm not too tired after work) I'll try probing that probably drive input to see if IC401 is generating a ramp. If I see a ramp, then I'll try digging up a replacement for IC402. > > If any experienced monitor experts can suggest possible identities for IC401, that would sure help! It wouldn't surprise me if it's a fairly common part monitor working incognito in this monitor. > > If I do manage to fix this beast, then I should write up what I've learned on my blog so that maybe the next person trying to fix a similar monitor will stumble across my notes. A couple comments: - The supply for the vertical drive section comes via a rectifier and filter from the pins-11/12 secondary of the multi-coil transformer down the page (part of some switching power supply). I was going to suggest you should probably find around 25V on that supply line, looks like it's OK as you found 24V at IC402. - Q402, Q403 form a complementary driver for the 'supply' side of the V coil, controlled by the vertical centering pot. It looks like they just form a DC driver for the coil. They would form a sort-of H bridge with the output transistors of IC402.The V around the junction of the Q402,Q403 emitters (see also R414,R413,C422) should probably be around the mid-point of the supply, +12V or so, and should vary with the V centering control. (The objective is so the IC402 output can drive current in both directions through the V coil so you get both up & down deflection.) If, for example, Q402, R414 or R413 failed open there would be no current supply for the V coil. You said you were getting some variation with the V centering, so, yes, the problem may well be elsewhere. From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 2 16:54:30 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:54:30 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <3F59E723-EB12-46EF-9016-CB0ABA54EF73@cs.ubc.ca> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <, > <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> <3F59E723-EB12-46EF-9016-CB0ABA54EF73@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > On Dec 2, 2014, at 14:46 , Brent Hilpert wrote: > If, for example, Q402, R414 or R413 failed open there would be no current supply for the V coil. You said you were getting some variation with the V centering, so, yes, the problem may well be elsewhere. That's about what I was thinking. The horizontal line is near the center of the screen, and can be moved up and down with the centering control. If just one side of the H bridge was broken, then I'd expect to see a badly distorted raster on one half of the screen. So, that's why I suspect that the ramp isn't getting generated. I'll do some more poking around to see if any signal is being fed to IC402 by IC401. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 2 17:32:38 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 15:32:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> . . . Therefore, on 8086/8088, etc., >>> long long int A; >>> int B; >>> A = B << 32; might get compiled into MOV CL, 32 SHL X, CL which would clear any number 32 bits or less. BUT, on 80386, it might get compiled into SHL X,32 or MOV CL,32 SHL X,CL and either way, would do NOTHING! because, starting with the 80386?, the shift amount is ANDed with 1Fh. So, should the compiler optimize that to MOV X,0 or NOP ? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 2 19:04:44 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:04:44 -0500 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/12/14 1:45 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > ... > C is much like Assembler, you should know what you really want todo. The > comiler let you do all kind of things with the assumption that you know what > you are doing. This is a programming language for system programming > purposes (written to write Unix) where you have to load unusual registers > and such things... Less than 5% of the *kernel* is at that level, and NONE of userland. The rest needs as much static checking as it can get (which is where C and "worse is better" entirely fails people doing "systems programming"). Viz: Thousands of CERT notices. --Toby > > > How about this: > > A = (int64_t)B << 32; > > Regards, > > Holm > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 2 19:05:36 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:05:36 -0500 Subject: C compilers for PDP-11 - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547E61E0.2090506@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/12/14 1:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-02 14:20, Mark Wickens wrote: >> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is >> for PDP-11 ... > > Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C > isn't the best I've seen. *Which* PDP-11 C? --Toby > FORTRAN-77? BASIC+2? The list goes on... > Personally I might have done it in MACRO-11 as well. :-) > > Johnny > >> >> Mark. >> From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 2 19:09:42 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:09:42 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/12/14 12:08 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/02/2014 07:20 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: >> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming language is >> for PDP-11 for this kind of application, if I'm getting what you're after >> it's something like wordstar or WPS-PLUS? A text editor with some word >> processing features. Good system integration and the ability to easily >> control a terminal? >> >> I know VAX Pascal is highly respected and can do most things - certainly >> Theo De Klerk's book is very comprehensive. >> >> I don't know *anything* about programming PDP-11's. Would be >> interested if >> there is one language or it's a case of pick and choose like VAXen. >> >> > Our shop at the time (1975-1981 or so, for the PDP-11) used FORTRAN. I > had a passion > for Pascal, also got a Modula 2 compiler but never really moved to it. > We then got a > VAX 11/780, and I used them until the migration to the Alpha systems, > and used > those until the end of DEC. We continued to run one Alpha here until it > became so > obsolete that nobody would use it anymore. We were STILL mostly a FORTRAN > shop. I created a few personal apps in Pascal. > > Now that I use Linux pretty exclusively, I have grudgingly accepted C. You can give it up any time. There are dozens of far better languages that have cropped up in the 40 years since C was invented for a particular environment (that doesn't resemble anything much we do today). > Recently, > the Free Pascal Compiler (fpc) became available on Linux, and it is quite > amazing. I ported over a Turbo Pascal for Windows app that ran on Windows > 95/Win 2K to run on Linux in a couple days. It required some serious > hacking > to remove external hardware-specific parts that were no longer applicable, > but the main thrust of FPC was to handle DEC and Borland Pascal extensions > to the language well. They really did a good job! So, after a long > time away > from Pascal, it is again a viable language. I doubt I'd ever write a major > app in Pascal again, but I could if I wanted. > > Well, none of the above really applies to the PDP-11! I will say that a > major > advantage with Pascal is that when I got a program to pass the compiler's > syntax checking, it very often ran correctly the first time! Yes, this is true of most statically checked environments, *particularly* the modern ones that derive from ML. The ML family exists because nothing else at the time could offer the necessary correctness for writing proof checkers. > It forces you > to think logically, structure well, and doesn't have all the insane hidden > syntactic screwups that C does. Amen. I'm the generation that foolishly got sucked into the dangerous superficialities of C after using Pascal. Today I know better. --Toby > I still get called in at work to advise > when C programs don't work right. I'm still discovering new ways that > C code that looks perfectly correct can screw up horribly. ... > > Jon > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 2 21:22:06 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 21:22:06 -0600 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <547E81DE.3080806@pico-systems.com> On 12/02/2014 12:45 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jon Elson wrote: > > > No, thats not stupid. Nobody says that the compiler should think about your > code. > > You clearly shift the int variable 32 times to the left and the compiler is > warning you.. > > BTW: there are some standards in stdint.h that clarify up a lot which tpe > has how many bits, eg int32_t int64_t uint8_t. > On my system int is 64 Bits and a long long is 128 bits, for shure your > code will work here, bit your code isn't portable! It doesn't work on a > 32 Bit system and it doesn't work on 16 or 8 Bit machines. > > C is much like Assembler, you should know what you really want todo. The > comiler let you do all kind of things with the assumption that you know what > you are doing. This is a programming language for system programming > purposes (written to write Unix) where you have to load unusual registers > and such things... > Not my code, it just took me longer to find this than it should have. I do a lot of device control stuff in C, so appreciate that bit fields are easy to work with. Yes, in my code, I have moved to using uint32_t and similar types, and get RID of the int, long int, long long int that don't have a totally explicit meaning on different systems. We just moved some data acq software to some 64-bit systems, and had to deal with a LOT of non-explicit data types that would compile differently on 32- and 64-bit systems. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 2 21:25:34 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 21:25:34 -0600 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <547E82AE.2030001@pico-systems.com> On 12/02/2014 01:03 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> still discovering new ways that >> C code that looks perfectly correct can screw up horribly. Last one was >> yesterday. >> >> Boiling it down, we had : >> >> long long int A; >> int B; >> A = B << 32; >> >> This means that some field of B gets shifted to the right by 32 bits, and >> fit into the upper 32-bits of A. >> >> Now, any decent compiler should either extend B to the length of A, or >> as the C rules specify, NOT extend B, and therefor ought to warn you >> that it is losing significant bits. No warning, no extending the variable >> before shifting the bits off the end of the word. So, A always gets >> a zero! UGH! Stupid! I could almost write a book of these sorts >> of gotchas. > Hmm. What C compiler did this, on what distro? I'm pretty sure that this throws a compiler warning in gcc with -Wall... > > Should have been gcc on a 64-bit Ubuntu 12.04 build, I THINK. (Not absolutely sure what machine they were running this on at work.) I have NO IDEA what compiler flags were used, however. It was buried deep in a several page Make file, with those 5 line long compile lines filled with switches and includes. It definitely did NOT produce any warning at all. Jon From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 2 22:37:11 2014 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 20:37:11 -0800 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> On Dec 2, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I used Multics Emacs when I was given the project of putting the University of > Chicago on an MMDF-based phone network sponsored by EDUCOM and called EDUnet. > MIT-MULTICS was the hub for the system, so I had an account there and was very > happy to find my favorite editor available. That was 1983-84, after which I > moved to Stanford. The rest, as they say, is boring old stuff^W^W^Whistory. If it ran on Multics, I find myself wondering if it ran on GCOS-8. Zane From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 2 23:09:10 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 21:09:10 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <, > <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> <3F59E723-EB12-46EF-9016-CB0ABA54EF73@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <59018251-CF2C-41F7-89AC-DEAED9D99CAA@nf6x.net> Well, I feel pretty dumb now. IC401 is marked "LA7850" on top with no manufacturer logo. Mr. Google suggests it's a Sanyo LA7850 sync chip, and those are available on eBay. So, things are looking better, and I gave up way too soon! The LA7850 datasheet suggests that IC402 may be an LA7832, LA7833, LA7837 or LA7838. I can't see the chip markings yet, but I should be able to see them once I get the mainboard out to add some test point wires onto the suspicious IC401. It's tucked under the CRT, with the side that I need to probe facing in the least convenient direction, of course. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 23:11:41 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 21:11:41 -0800 Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: References: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547E9B8D.4090207@gmail.com> On 12/1/2014 10:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2014, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 12/1/2014 9:53 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. >>> They're from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear >>> that they're hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along >>> the outer edge. There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of >>> these appear to be done in an attempt to restrict users to a single >>> vendor of floppies. >>> >>> Here are some pics: >>> http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg >>> http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg >> >> Those look suspiciously like floppies for the Memorex 650/651 -- the >> first commercially available read/write floppy drive (1972). I just >> picked up a 651 myself (mostly because it looks cool, I can only hope >> to someday have a machine to use it with...) If you're willing to >> spare one of those disks (so I have a matching set) let me know... :). > > Would you like all of them? Got anything interesting to trade? > Hey David -- I sent you a response offline yesterday, didn't hear anything back. Figured I'd post here just in case it ended up in a spam filter... Thanks, Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 23:15:42 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 21:15:42 -0800 Subject: 3M "WhisperPrinter" (Trendcom 100) docs? In-Reply-To: <20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> References: <547B7DE9.3000601@gmail.com> <20141201170254.GQ1273@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <547E9C7E.5040706@gmail.com> On 12/1/2014 9:02 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Sunday (11/30/2014 at 12:28PM -0800), Josh Dersch wrote: >> Picked this up for nearly nothing at a local recycler, it was too cute to >> pass up. It's a 3M "WhisperPrinter" (model 1904AA), and it's a small (40 >> column, 4.5" wide) thermal printer with a serial interface. It appears to >> work (runs a self-test if you hold the line feed button while powering on) >> but I don't know what the pinout for the interface on the rear is (it's a >> 20-pin header). >> >> This looks to be a rebadged Trendcom 100 (which I can also find very little >> technical info about) used on a number of early home computers (Atari, >> TRS-80, PET). Anyone happen to have a manual for this? > I'm not sure if you included an image or link to one. Didn't get > one here. > > I am familiar with a 3M Whisper Writer, which was a complete portable > terminal system including a printer as you describe, a keyboard unit > and an acoustic coupled modem. > > Is it like this? > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102638269 Yes, it looks very much like that, only not as wide -- only about 7" or so. > > And these are the other pieces, > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102638268 > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102638267 > > 3M built these themselves. Interesting. I didn't see those parts at the recycler or I definitely would have grabbed them. > > I had one as a kid. My dad worked for 3M and this ensured an endless > supply of thermal paper and is also why I still have half a dozen TI > Silent 700 terminals as well ;-) > > Nowdays, you can buy "thermal fax" paper at office supply stores and > it will work in the TI printers. Unfortunately, it's 8.5" wide so you > would need to modify the roll for the Whisper Writer. Maybe there is > a version of thermal cash register paper that will fit?? It came with a roll of paper so that's not an immediate problem, but I'm sure I can track something down (or hack up a larger roll to fit). Looks like I may have to work out the interface manually, though, to get it to talk to anything. - Josh > > Chris From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 23:15:47 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 23:15:47 -0600 Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual In-Reply-To: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 8:05 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So it turns out that I have a copy of the "PDP-11 MACRO-11 Assembler Program > Manual" (DEC-11-OMACA-A-D). I see that Manx says no copies of this are online: > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,4416 > > Alas, I don't have a page-feeder scanner, and it looks to be well over 100 > pages; a bit much to feed by hand. Anyone out there with such a scanner > willing to scan it for us? (I want to hang onto the hardcopy, which is why I > don't simply send it to Al.) Is it ringbound (vs. stapled or glued?) If so I can do the scan for you and send it back. I can still do it if it's not loose-leaf, it will just take longer (unstapling, page-at-a-time on flatbed, etc.) I'm near Chicago -j From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 23:28:09 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 21:28:09 -0800 Subject: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM Message-ID: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> About a year ago I posted about this; I have an HP 9830A upgraded with an Infotek MX-30 processor upgrade (there's a nice writeup on this page: http://www.hp9825.com/html/infotek.html), but I'm missing the RAM boards. Thought I'd poll again just in case anyone has some, as unlikely as that may be. Alternately, if anyone needs an MX-30 board set (sans memory) for a restoration, drop me a line and maybe we can work something out. Hate to sit on this forever and never get anything working... - Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 2 23:32:35 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 21:32:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: <547E9B8D.4090207@gmail.com> References: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> <547E9B8D.4090207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/1/2014 10:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Would you like all of them? Got anything interesting to trade? > > Hey David -- I sent you a response offline yesterday, didn't hear anything > back. Figured I'd post here just in case it ended up in a spam filter... Ya, I got it. I'm just stewing over a recruiter that made me waste all of Tuesday. They told the hiring manager that I was an insurance salesman with 20 or so years of experience. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Dec 3 00:00:27 2014 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?B?R8O2cmFuIEF4ZWxzc29u?=) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 07:00:27 +0100 Subject: Whitechapel Computer Works MG-1 In-Reply-To: References: <547A5EC0.20007@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <547EA6FB.2060904@acc.umu.se> Thanks Tony, David, Andy, Rich, Jules.... et al. If I missed you it's just because I never expected the thread to explode into this. :-) Now I know what to look for and how to get it running if I find it. I even know how fast I can run it too! :-D This is a fantastic community! G?ran David Brownlee skrev den 2014-11-30 09:45: > Add a few more details below - its been 20 years since I last saw one so > hopefully my memory is accurate > > On 30 Nov 2014 06:51, "tony duell" wrote: >>> I just got the "Owner Operator Guide" manual for a MG-1 from a friend. I >>> did some searches and found a picture on wikipedia in the article about >>> Whitechapel Computer Works. ( >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitechapel_Computer_Works ) >>> I also found an evaluation of the MG-1 and several contemporary >>> workstations... >>> > http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/sus/perq_papers/perq_external/p003.htm >> .> .. but then I drew a blank. It seems like these are really rare > systems. >>> Does anyone have a system? Anyone need the manual? >> I have one. I've even found it after the move (it's on a shelf behind me > along >> with its keyboard. Not found the mouse yet, it's probably still in one of > the >> 500 or so boxes still to unpack. >> >> It's a 32016-based unix box. There are a few gotchas that I remember. >> >> It needs a good set of NiCd cells on the power control board to start it > up. >> If not, you have to do a 'jumpstart' involving connecting a 9V battery to > a connector >> on that board. Some owners added an external socket wired there to make it >> easier to so this. > Another jumpstart option was to boot one up, leave it running for a moment > and then connect it across to the dead machine > >> The 32016, 32018 (FPU), MMU chips, etc are in nice turned-pin sockets. The >> EPROMs are in cheap sockets. Replacing the latter sockets will often get a >> dead machine going. > From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 3 00:44:40 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 07:44:40 +0100 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/12/14 1:45 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >... > >C is much like Assembler, you should know what you really want todo. The > >comiler let you do all kind of things with the assumption that you know > >what > >you are doing. This is a programming language for system programming > >purposes (written to write Unix) where you have to load unusual registers > >and such things... > > Less than 5% of the *kernel* is at that level, and NONE of userland. The > rest needs as much static checking as it can get (which is where C and > "worse is better" entirely fails people doing "systems programming"). > > Viz: Thousands of CERT notices. > > --Toby > Toby you just have to write pascal or ada compilers for all that small stuff most people have todo with today. I'm sure programmers will use it then. It isn't the question if you like C, the question is what you get to write programs for devices and I'm really don't want to programm embedded things with ARM or MIPS kernel entirely using assembler... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From t.gardner at computer.org Wed Dec 3 00:46:08 2014 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 22:46:08 -0800 Subject: Weird 8-inch floppy disk In-Reply-To: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> References: <547D564C.7000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015601d00ec4$d2613830$7723a890$@computer.org> They might actually be the Memorex 650 media. The 650 media had 8 sector (9 holes) while the 651 media had 32 sectors (33 holes) See http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/memorex/disc/2944.010_650floppyOEM.pd f, Fig 3 Or http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/memorex/disc/2644.002-01_651Maint_Nov 74.pdf , Fig. 1-5 Or they might be for one of the other early FDD vendors such as Century Data or Potter, but they really look like the Memorex FDs With the shipment of IBMs 33FD the indes/sector hole moved to the center as did the rest of the industry, starting with the Shugart 900 series. Memorex had enough volume in the early FDDs that third parties such as Verbatim made compatible media. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Josh Dersch [mailto:derschjo at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 10:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Weird 8-inch floppy disk On 12/1/2014 9:53 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I found a ten-pack of 8-inch floppy disks that have me confused. > They're from STAM@, a name I've never heard of before. It's clear > that they're hard-sectored, but the index and sector holes are along > the outer edge. There's also a notch cut into the corner. Both of > these appear to be done in an attempt to restrict users to a single > vendor of floppies. > > Here are some pics: > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-front.jpg > http://661.org/images/weird-floppy-back.jpg Those look suspiciously like floppies for the Memorex 650/651 -- the first commercially available read/write floppy drive (1972). I just picked up a 651 myself (mostly because it looks cool, I can only hope to someday have a machine to use it with...) If you're willing to spare one of those disks (so I have a matching set) let me know... :). - Josh From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Dec 3 01:02:58 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 23:02:58 -0800 Subject: Defeated by a Commodore 1950 Monitor In-Reply-To: <59018251-CF2C-41F7-89AC-DEAED9D99CAA@nf6x.net> References: <81A11E91-64C3-454D-9675-FEC988E5815A@nf6x.net> <, > <27BA5948-4628-40C6-9EB8-B1CCA4E4E4B0@nf6x.net> <3F59E723-EB12-46EF-9016-CB0ABA54EF73@cs.ubc.ca> <59018251-CF2C-41F7-89AC-DEAED9D99CAA@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I pulled the main board out in order to solder some test points onto IC401 pins 15 (vertical drive output) and 12 (horizontal drive output). While I had it out of the monitor, I could see that IC402 is a Sanyo LA7830. With it back together, here's what I see on the drive outputs of IC401. Trace 1 (yellow) is the vertical drive, and trace 2 (blue) is the horizontal: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7a97lypdqknofx/TEK00000.PNG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0c80wuqkbr245n7/TEK00001.PNG?dl=0 The vertical drive looks pretty dead, and the horizontal drive doesn't look anything like what I expected. Now, I took these measurements with no video input to the monitor, with the expectation that the drive oscillators should free-run on an analog monitor this old. Is that a reasonable expectation? I think that IC401 is pining for the fjords, so I'll order at least one replacement and a DIP socket to stick it in. Maybe I should order extra chips, and one or two replacements for IC402 as well, and tuck them inside the case to help out the next person to repair this monitor? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 3 01:18:26 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 08:18:26 +0100 Subject: rain.c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141203071826.GB63633@beast.freibergnet.de> Jacob Ritorto wrote: > On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > > Tell us what you see when you use the C-preprocessor only on that file: > > > > gcc -E rain.c |less > > > > and then search in the output for setbuf: > > > > > > float cols, lines; > > > > setbuf(__stdoutp,malloc(1024)); > > if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { > > > > ok, Holm, on OpenSolaris, gcc -E rain.c |less gives: > > > float cols, cur_term-> _c3; > > setbuf((&__iob[1]),malloc(1024)); > if (!(term=getenv("TERM"))) { > > > I think that means it worked, right? > > --jake As other people already wrote the declaration of the cariable lines got screwed up on your system b'cause of a ugly definition of the name lines somewhere in therm.h on your system. The simplest solution may be changing all occurences of "lines" in rain.c to something other, eg. "mylines". Another possibility is a #undef lines just before that line "float cols, lines;". Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 02:12:34 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 01:12:34 -0700 Subject: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Alternately, if anyone needs an MX-30 board set (sans memory) for a > restoration, drop me a line and maybe we can work something out. Hate to > sit on this forever and never get anything working... I certainly don't *need* one, and I'd be in the same boat w/ regard to not being able to use it without the suitable memory. I'm thinking about designing a new static RAM board for the 9830 for the 2015/07 retrochallenge. If all the MX-30 needs is memory that is faster than the stock HP memory, it's possible that a new static RAM board might work. I'd be very interested in high-resolution photos or scans of both sides of both boards. From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 03:38:01 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:38:01 +0100 Subject: C compilers for PDP-11 - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E61E0.2090506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> <547E61E0.2090506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547ED9F9.2@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-03 02:05, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/12/14 1:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-12-02 14:20, Mark Wickens wrote: >>> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming >>> language is >>> for PDP-11 ... >> >> Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C >> isn't the best I've seen. > > *Which* PDP-11 C? I was explicitly thinking of the DEC PDP-11 C compiler here. DECUS C actually generates better code than PDP-11 C, but DECUS C is a rather weird K&R, while PDP-11 C is pretty much full ANSI. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 03:41:24 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:41:24 +0100 Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual In-Reply-To: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547EDAC4.5020007@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-02 15:05, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So it turns out that I have a copy of the "PDP-11 MACRO-11 Assembler Program > Manual" (DEC-11-OMACA-A-D). I see that Manx says no copies of this are online: > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,4416 What do that manual contain? The PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual is certainly online. (AA-KX10A-TC) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Dec 3 07:12:20 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 08:12:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Now that I use Linux pretty exclusively, I have grudgingly accepted >> C. > You can give it up any time. There are dozens of far better > languages that have cropped up in the 40 years since C was invented > for a particular environment (that doesn't resemble anything much we > do today). Today's C doesn't resemble Kernighan & Ritchie's C all that much, either. There are no "better" languages, because "better" is ill-defined. There are better languages for this task in this environment or that task in that environment, for various tasks and environments, but there are still tasks and environments for which C wins. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 08:05:34 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 09:05:34 -0500 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 1:44 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 02/12/14 1:45 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> ... >>> C is much like Assembler, you should know what you really want todo. The >>> comiler let you do all kind of things with the assumption that you know >>> what >>> you are doing. This is a programming language for system programming >>> purposes (written to write Unix) where you have to load unusual registers >>> and such things... >> >> Less than 5% of the *kernel* is at that level, and NONE of userland. The >> rest needs as much static checking as it can get (which is where C and >> "worse is better" entirely fails people doing "systems programming"). >> >> Viz: Thousands of CERT notices. >> >> --Toby >> > > Toby you just have to write pascal or ada compilers for all that small > stuff most people have todo with today. > > I'm sure programmers will use it then. > > It isn't the question if you like C, the question is what you get to > write programs for devices and I'm really don't want to programm > embedded things with ARM or MIPS kernel entirely using assembler... Sure, there are some niches where it's still appropriate. My point is that it's used widely in places where it's just not ok, for no better reason than "we've always done things this way"* --Toby * - 1973 is now outside living memory for a lot of developers. > > Regards, > > Holm > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 08:09:44 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 09:09:44 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 8:12 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> Now that I use Linux pretty exclusively, I have grudgingly accepted >>> C. >> You can give it up any time. There are dozens of far better >> languages that have cropped up in the 40 years since C was invented >> for a particular environment (that doesn't resemble anything much we >> do today). > > Today's C doesn't resemble Kernighan & Ritchie's C all that much, > either. The only important difference that comes to mind is prototype checking, which as far as static safety goes, is very weak tea. > > There are no "better" languages, because "better" is ill-defined. > There are better languages for this task in this environment or that > task in that environment, for various tasks and environments, but there > are still tasks and environments for which C wins. That doesn't mean people should not stop using it where it doesn't win. The fetishisation of C is a massive cultural problem with massive tangible costs. --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 3 08:21:23 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:21:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual Message-ID: <20141203142123.E6D7218C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> a copy of the "PDP-11 MACRO-11 Assembler Program Manual" >> (DEC-11-OMACA-A-D). > What do that manual contain? The PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference > Manual is certainly online. (AA-KX10A-TC) That and a host of predecessors, going back to the "MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual", AA-5075A-TC, 1977-08: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,5565 This one is fairly older; the date on it is April, 1972. Compared to the one above, this one is missing that one's Chapter 1 ("MACRO-11 Features"), this one has a different Chapter 1, "Fundamentals of Programming the PDP-11", covering topics like "Modular Programming", "Commenting PDP-11 Assembler Programs", "Localized Register Usage", "Conditional Assemblies", etc, etc. Past that, they seem to be pretty much the same, until you get to Chapter 8, "Operating Procedures", which is missing in the later one. This one has an Appendix D, "Listing of SYSMAC.SML" which is missing in the later one, which has an Appendix E, "Sample Coding Standard", which this one lacks. So not too many differences. Whether this is worth having online also, given that there are numerous later versions ... dunno. Opinions? Noel From random832 at fastmail.us Wed Dec 3 08:54:30 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 09:54:30 -0500 Subject: C compilers for PDP-11 - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547ED9F9.2@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> <547E61E0.2090506@telegraphics.com.au> <547ED9F9.2@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1417618470.2554176.198332185.42909CDE@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014, at 04:38, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-03 02:05, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 02/12/14 1:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-12-02 14:20, Mark Wickens wrote: > >>> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming > >>> language is > >>> for PDP-11 ... > >> > >> Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C > >> isn't the best I've seen. > > > > *Which* PDP-11 C? > > I was explicitly thinking of the DEC PDP-11 C compiler here. DECUS C > actually generates better code than PDP-11 C, but DECUS C is a rather > weird K&R, while PDP-11 C is pretty much full ANSI. What about UNIX C? Though, that's also K&R. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 3 08:42:08 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 06:42:08 -0800 Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual In-Reply-To: <547EDAC4.5020007@update.uu.se> References: <20141202140524.74BDA18C139@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547EDAC4.5020007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547F2140.2080505@bitsavers.org> > On 2014-12-02 15:05, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So it turns out that I have a copy of the "PDP-11 MACRO-11 Assembler Program >> Manual" (DEC-11-OMACA-A-D). I see that Manx says no copies of this are online: > I have it scanned, I'll see about getting it post-processed. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 3 08:47:15 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 06:47:15 -0800 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547F2273.5090809@bitsavers.org> On 12/3/14 6:05 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > * - 1973 is now outside living memory for a lot of developers. > Along with Mesa and the Modula family, apparently. People traded safety for speed, and thanks to the net and cowboy programming, that has turned out to be a bad decision. From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 10:11:31 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 17:11:31 +0100 Subject: C compilers for PDP-11 - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <1417618470.2554176.198332185.42909CDE@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> <547E61E0.2090506@telegraphics.com.au> <547ED9F9.2@update.uu.se> <1417618470.2554176.198332185.42909CDE@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <547F3633.3080009@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-03 15:54, random832 at fastmail.us wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014, at 04:38, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-12-03 02:05, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 02/12/14 1:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> On 2014-12-02 14:20, Mark Wickens wrote: >>>>> Is there any general agreement on what the 'best' programming >>>>> language is >>>>> for PDP-11 ... >>>> >>>> Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C >>>> isn't the best I've seen. >>> >>> *Which* PDP-11 C? >> >> I was explicitly thinking of the DEC PDP-11 C compiler here. DECUS C >> actually generates better code than PDP-11 C, but DECUS C is a rather >> weird K&R, while PDP-11 C is pretty much full ANSI. > > What about UNIX C? Though, that's also K&R. I haven't looked at the quality of its code generation. But that is an interesting question. When I have some time... Johnny From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 3 10:21:10 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 11:21:10 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > > > That doesn't mean people should not stop using it where it doesn't win. > The fetishisation of C is a massive cultural problem with massive tangible > costs. > > --Toby > > But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} programmers? Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend those hours writing code in a language with which you're already familiar, rather than spending them picking up a new language... I agree there's lots of languages out there optimized for all kinds of different problem domains, however, I think there is some cognitive limit on the part of the programmer, how many different languages and paradigms one person can really learn to full proficiency level. As well, for most, programming is a means to an end. People ultimately want a completed product, an achieved solution. When already proficient in one language, it's hard to keep your nose to the grindstone learning the fundamentals of another, when you could be executing real work in the language you already know. I don't know that C is "fetishized"... certainly it's in vogue like Pascal was in the 80s, but beyond that... you're right, C is probably being used more as a blunt instrument now than Pascal was in the 80s (of course, C is as well more flexible) but this follows the general trend of things we've seen in tech where variation is reduced over time; in hardware platforms, in operating systems, in applications and certainly in languages commonly used as well. Between me and my close friends I am familiar with the EE/CS curricula at a number of institutions and there is some variation. Some do teach C/C++ (that was my experience at U-M), some teach Java, some (well, a few) teach Scheme and so on. Best, Sean From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 3 11:29:27 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:29:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> n Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Toby Thain wrote: > Sure, there are some niches where it's still appropriate. > My point is that it's used widely in places where it's just not ok, for > no better reason than "we've always done things this way"* Very true. A lot of the problem [,if there is one] is "baby duck syndrome". For example, students will stick with what they learned in school - BASIC was developed for TEACHING programming; as such, it was a fairly good choice for being built-in to generations of personal computers. When Pascal was developed for TEACHING programming, we got a whole generation who had learned on it, were never told, or never accepted, that it was intended for TEACHING, not for real world applications, and proceeded to use it when they got out into the real world, with mixed results. When C was the language that was taught, we got generations of C programmers. Now, will we be getting generations of SCHEME programmers? A well designed language (and compiler) will excel at what it was designed for, and is not likely to be the best possible choice for other purposes. Nevertheless, these languages are generally capable of doing tasks outside their specialty. And, if somebody's experience is with some specific tool, will forcing a change to other tools because of their potential better suitability be worth the setback in experience? If you employed Tony, and used state of the art diagnostic systems, would you ask him to give up his voltmeter and logic probe? Some things, such as runtime error checking are great for a teaching language, but lose some of their benefit in the real world. For example: Y = 100 / X could be disastrous if X == 0 Should the compiler add error checking? IF (X == 0) ... ELSE Y = 100 / X But, if you KNOW that X is not 0 IF (condition) X = 2, else X = 5 Y = 100 / X do we really want the bloat and slowdown of checking whether X is 0? Do we expect the COMPILER to have kept track of what possible values X might have at that time? (possible in this trivial case, not in anything much more complex) WE might know what X was used for, and therefore its range of possibilities, the compiler wasn't a party to all of the design conferences. The programmer still knows more about what is intended than the compiler does. If you DON'T know that X is non-zero, then YOU should insert appropriate tests. But, too many programmers will write Y = 100 / X without including the essential safety test. The fault is with the programmer, not the language. Similarly, F = C * (9/5) + 32 (note that 9 and 5 are integers!) or IF(((float)X/3.0) * 3.0 == X) . . . or (int32)X<<32 might be programmer errors. It would be NICE if the compiler would notice the mistake and WARN us, but it is not the fault of the compiler if we make the mistake, or even if the compiler author didn't include code to check for our particular mistake. The task of the compiler is to do what we ASKED for; secondarily, it would be nice if it does what we WANT. (cf. old yiddish curses) Likewise, X << N would be treated as X << (N & 31) by 80386 X << 32 would be treated as X << 0 by 80386 It is still the programmer's responsibility to learn all such DOCUMENTED characteristics, and even the UNDOCUMENTED ones that have already been encountered. > * - 1973 is now outside living memory for a lot of developers. Oh, I remember it well. Aerospace had just collapsed. In some areas, auto garages were full of EEs working as mechanics. In 1973, I declared that I would get back into computers when "tabletop computers" became readily available, and I opened an auto repair shop working on Honda cars. For a while, my employees chided me about being the only one who hadn't been through graduate school, and only had a BA. I was fascinated by S100, but the coming of TRS80, Pet, and Apple brought me back. Yes, "a lot of". Way too many of my friends have died. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 3 11:42:02 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:42:02 -0700 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/3/2014 10:29 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Very true. > A lot of the problem [,if there is one] is "baby duck syndrome". > For example, students will stick with what they learned in school - > BASIC was developed for TEACHING programming; as such, it was a fairly > good choice for being built-in to generations of personal computers. > > When Pascal was developed for TEACHING programming, we got a whole > generation who had learned on it, were never told, or never > accepted, that it was intended for TEACHING, not for real world > applications, and proceeded to use it when they got out into the real > world, with mixed results. > > When C was the language that was taught, we got generations of C > programmers. I say classic C is good. Remeber back in 73 all one had was a few k of 16 bit memory for small computer. BIG IRON ran *REAL* programing languages. 83 you got MSDOS and all the tweaks to get C to run at all. 93 you got C+ and *MORE* improvements and 32 bit gcc. 03 you have all sorts of flavors. > Now, will we be getting generations of SCHEME programmers? > > A well designed language (and compiler) will excel at what it was designed > for, and is not likely to be the best possible choice for other purposes. PL/1 anyone? > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Ben. From lars at nocrew.org Wed Dec 3 12:31:28 2014 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:31:28 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D12151@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> (Rich Alderson's message of "Mon\, 1 Dec 2014 20\:47\:52 +0000") References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1045D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <85ppc37fb2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D12151@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <858uio4mbj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Rich Alderson writes: > From: Eric Smith >>> It was? During my stint at XKL, I was told the Toad-1 I was >>> working with was an FPGA implementation. Maybe it was an >>> experiment, but it seemed to work pretty well. But then, I was a >>> telecommuter, so maybe some information was jumbled in >>> long-distance transmission. > >> You guys probably have more information about this than I do, but >> my understanding was that the Toad-1 CPU required multiple FPGAs, >> CPLDs, and other logic, while the Toad-2 CPU is a single FPGA. > > Lars, Eric is correct. The Toad-1 is a multi-board computer system > (at minimum, the XKL-1 CPU, one XMG-1 memory, one XNI-1 Ethernet > interface, and one XRH-1 SCSI interface, in a 7-slot backplane). > Each board used several programmable parts, from Altera and Xilinx. > In particular, the CPU was a pair of Xilinx parts for the microcode > engine, with an AMD 2900 family sequencer (I forget the particular > part number). > > The Toad-2 (and the 1U rack mount unit is *not* a Toad-2, but it > does contain two of them, thus the label) is a single FPGA > implementation of the Toad-1 (mutatis mutandis: no SCSI, but it > talks to SD cards, for example). Ah, that explains it. Thanks! From andy.holt at tesco.net Wed Dec 3 12:43:59 2014 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:43:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <38523765.566301.1417632239387.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> From: "ben" >>>> PL/1 anyone? <<<< I always think of C as PL/I redesigned to avoid the hidden inefficiencies by removing all the implicit conversions. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 3 12:44:18 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:44:18 +0000 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D15DBF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Zane Healy Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 8:37 PM > On Dec 2, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: >> I used Multics Emacs [snip] > If it ran on Multics, I find myself wondering if it ran on GCOS-8. I can't say. It was written in Multics MACLISP, so if *that* ran on GCOS... Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 3 12:52:33 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:52:33 -0800 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> On 12/03/2014 09:42 AM, ben wrote: > PL/1 anyone? Well, given all of the criticism that's been brought up, shouldn't we all be programming in Ada? --Chuck From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 12:57:02 2014 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:57:02 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <79DFEEBA-09F4-41AD-A77A-A74A4BFA43AF@gmail.com> Ada on OS/2, for that matter. Good engineering and stability only make up part of the story. Todd Killingsworth Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 3, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/03/2014 09:42 AM, ben wrote: >> >> PL/1 anyone? > > Well, given all of the criticism that's been brought up, shouldn't we all be programming in Ada? > > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 13:14:39 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 19:14:39 -0000 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <064101d00f2d$6312b620$29382260$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy > Sent: 03 December 2014 04:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? > > > On Dec 2, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: > > > I used Multics Emacs when I was given the project of putting the > > University of Chicago on an MMDF-based phone network sponsored by > EDUCOM and called EDUnet. > > MIT-MULTICS was the hub for the system, so I had an account there and > > was very happy to find my favorite editor available. That was > > 1983-84, after which I moved to Stanford. The rest, as they say, is boring > old stuff^W^W^Whistory. > > If it ran on Multics, I find myself wondering if it ran on GCOS-8. > > Zane I doubt it. GCOS-8 was weird and didn't have the same terminal paradigms as MULTICS. From what I remember it was a line/block mode terminal interface with local editing done in the GERTS or whatever FEP you were using. (I know it wasn't GERTS for GCOS8 but you know what I mean...) Dave Wade G4UGM From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Wed Dec 3 13:30:36 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 12:30:36 -0700 (MST) Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, given all of the criticism that's been brought up, shouldn't we > all be programming in Ada? And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. Any programmer that I know who is under 40 only programs in one language: Java. The under age 40 system administrators that I know can't program in any language unless you call python a language. There was one prediction that really went wrong, "I don't know what the programming language of 2000 will look like but I know it will be called Fortran." Tony Hoare circa 1982 -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 13:40:23 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 14:40:23 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: > And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. Go tell that to the DoD. -- Will From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 13:48:37 2014 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 14:48:37 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: Every programmer I know under forty loathes the mess that is Java and they avoid it like the plague unless they're really desperate for work and willing to be "part of the problem." I mean, unless you count Gates shills as "programmers." Ruby seems to have displaced visual basic for the notably green kids, while the sharper ones I've spent time with are real in to Go because you get performance, danger and expressiveness all in one. Good times. On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Well, given all of the criticism that's been brought up, shouldn't we > > all be programming in Ada? > > And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. > > I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. Any programmer that I > know who is under 40 only programs in one language: Java. The under age > 40 system administrators that I know can't program in any language unless > you call python a language. > > There was one prediction that really went wrong, > > "I don't know what the programming language of 2000 will look like > but I know it will be called Fortran." > Tony Hoare circa 1982 > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a > father > Athabasca University : but you have to earn > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" > ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Dec 3 13:50:49 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:50:49 -0600 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (12/03/2014 at 10:52AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/03/2014 09:42 AM, ben wrote: > > >PL/1 anyone? > > Well, given all of the criticism that's been brought up, shouldn't we all be > programming in Ada? Ya, I mean, who in their right mind would take an operating system kernel written in some 15 million lines of that crappy C language and build and sell one billion devices running it? Who? That would just be nuts... -- Chris Elmquist From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Wed Dec 3 14:06:16 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 13:06:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, William Donzelli wrote: > > And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. > > Go tell that to the DoD. Well it is their language after all. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:10:52 2014 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:10:52 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: >And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. Just because its not currently in fashion, or wasn't adopted by the public at large doesn't mean it's dead. Ada is embedded in all kinds of automated systems, from radar installations to command & control system to jets. Not going anywhere. COBOL is fantastic for boring repetative transactional processing. Its been around forever, not going anywhere. FORTRAN is fantastic for mathmatical modelling and has decades of customized libraries for various esoteric modelling, some of which I'm sure nobody wants to try and port simply because they would have to churn through the math to make sure it was correct. (Do you want to 'port' 50+ years of libraries from Los Alamos and verify they are EXACTLY the same as the originals?) Been around forever, not going anywhere. C - First language that was widely accepted that had low-level flexibility and power, a small program footprint, and could port easily across architectures. If its embedded and not assembler, chances are its C. Not going anywhere. Java (like it or not) and its rat's nest of frameworks was the first widely accepted programming language for internet transactions (front, middle, and back end). And it is turning into the COBOL of the internet. But the world isn't going to universally trash their e-commerce systems anytime soon ( unless Larry Ellison keeps suing people for not using Java the way he thinks it s/b used). Not going anywhere. On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (12/03/2014 at 10:52AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/03/2014 09:42 AM, ben wrote: > > > > >PL/1 anyone? > > > > Well, given all of the criticism that's been brought up, shouldn't we > all be > > programming in Ada? > > Ya, I mean, who in their right mind would take an operating system kernel > written in some 15 million lines of that crappy C language and build > and sell one billion devices running it? Who? That would just be nuts... > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:19:56 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:19:56 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > Just because its not currently in fashion, or wasn't adopted by the public > at large doesn't mean it's dead. Ada is a unique language in one unexpected way - if you use it, you may not be able to talk about it. Sone friends in the avionics/defense industry tell me that a fair bit of Ada use goes unreported. -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:25:23 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:25:23 -0700 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a > novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} > programmers? Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you stop at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* programmer, they'll become proficient in another language. I would go so far as to say that if they don't become proficient in another language, given a reasonable chance to do so, they aren't actually a good programmer, any C programming ability notwithstanding. > Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend > those hours writing code in a language with which you're already familiar, > rather than spending them picking up a new language... And continue writing software that has vulnerabilities. When the tools don't provide support for writing reliable software, reliable software mostly doesn't get written. For every CERT advisory of a vulnerability, there are still a huge number that have gone undetected so far. C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable code in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even slightly better semantics (including strong typing) 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software would still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of service rather than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's the problem of people that use runtime checking during software testing to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking off for production, but that's an argument for another day.) There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the problem is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a hammer... Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates will point out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, but unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, plus additional new ones. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:35:02 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:35:02 -0700 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 12:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. > > Go tell that to the DoD. Ha! It is to laugh. The DoD closed the AJPO many years ago, and issued waivers to the Ada requirement at the drop of a hat. At some point they did away with the requirement so that they no longer need to issue waivers. Ada sees far more use in high-end telecom equipment and in high-end commercial avionics (e.g., Boeing 777) than it ever did in the DoD. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 3 14:35:06 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 12:35:06 -0800 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> On 12/03/2014 12:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Sone friends in the avionics/defense industry tell me that a fair bit > of Ada use goes unreported. I suspect the same was true of JOVIAL. Maybe it's still used? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 3 14:36:39 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 12:36:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141203123112.W81801@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Richard Loken wrote: > And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. DOD stuff never dies; it just keeps getting worse. > I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. Any programmer that I > know who is under 40 only programs in one language: Java. So, a Java compiler isn't just a portable C preprocessor? :-) > The under age 40 system administrators that I know can't program in any > language unless you call python a language. What's a "system administrator"? > There was one prediction that really went wrong, > "I don't know what the programming language of 2000 will look like > but I know it will be called Fortran." > Tony Hoare circa 1982 No, it won't be CALLED Fortran. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Dec 3 14:45:45 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 14:45:45 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Twinax 5250 Style Terminal Message-ID: <20141203204545.GA19243@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Enthusiasts, I should have an IBM 9406-270 arriving today or tomorrow. I think I've gathered everything I need to attempt an OS install except a console. I do have a second NIC that I've been told could be used for console access. But I suspect special console software would be required to do so, and all my PCs at home run Linux which would probably complicate things. I've also been told that when using a NIC for console access there are several gotchas to watch out for, such as a specific slot requirement for the NIC, etc. This being my first attempt at installing an OS on a 9406 anything that can be done to simplify the process and avoid having to worry about gotchas is probably a good thing. Plus, I like twinax terminals, especially the keyboards. So, does anyone have a suitable terminal in need of a good home? There are a few available from eBay, but I hate to pay more for a terminal than I did for the 270. I'll probably also need the multi-port twinax connector block that connects to the twinax card in the 270 if anyone has one to spare. There wasn't one listed in the eBay list for the 270, but I might get lucky and have it arrive with one included. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:47:39 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:47:39 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Ha! It is to laugh. > > The DoD closed the AJPO many years ago, and issued waivers to the Ada > requirement > at the drop of a hat. At some point they did away with the requirement > so that they no > longer need to issue waivers. Wow, that I did not know. Of course, there is a certain intersection of DoD projects and high end avionics - and they tend to be the ones that people do not talk about. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:49:01 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:49:01 -0500 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I suspect the same was true of JOVIAL. Maybe it's still used? I think I had asked some of the friends, and they though it was pretty much dead. -- Will From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 14:49:13 2014 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:49:13 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> Message-ID: <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> Hi Roy On 12/02/2014 07:42 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: > I'm Roy Hirst, a hobbyist new to the list - today is my day 1 - and I > currently work for XKL LLC. I'd like to contribute where I can to this > and other conversations on cctalk. Welcome to the list! Thanks for joining an shedding some light on the 36-bit/TOAD questions. > > The TOAD-2 is looked back on here with affection, some of the original > architects and engineers are still around, and memory systems and > interfaces have been under continuous development and extension since > TOAD-2 days. I am not sure if you used to work here you would > recognize it now. Is still 36-bit,? Yes. Perhaps you could elaborate on the compatibility between the TOAD versions and other PDP-10 processors. Also what operating systems do they run, both previous and current versions? And, the question I suppose some of us have, where can I get one? (I know there was only a handful TOAD-1s, but what about the TOAD-2, and is there a TOAD-3?) Regards, Pontus. From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 15:03:58 2014 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:03:58 -0700 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547F7ABE.9070305@gmail.com> On 12/3/2014 1:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Ha! It is to laugh. >> >> The DoD closed the AJPO many years ago, and issued waivers to the >> Ada requirement at the drop of a hat. At some point they did away >> withthe requirement so that they no longer need to issue waivers. > > Wow, that I did not know. > > Of course, there is a certain intersection of DoD projects and high > end avionics - and they tend to be the ones that people do not talk > about. > -- > Will See for a fairly recent set of coding standards for C++ used by the DoD. It contains a pretty good discussion on what are bad practices, what are best practices, and why. Recognize that this is intended for embedded applications - not web servers. Rob. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Dec 3 15:06:03 2014 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 07:36:03 +1030 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <547F7B3B.90509@kaput.homeunix.org> On 4/12/2014 6:40 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > C - First language that was widely accepted that had low-level flexibility > and power, a small program footprint, and could port easily across > architectures. If its embedded and not assembler, chances are its C. Not > going anywhere. I'll mention in a previous job, one of the embedded systems we repaired used an MCS-96 microcontroller and the firmware was written in PL/M. I believe they were designed in the 90's and as far as I know, they're still being used today. The repair usually involved replacing the Dallas RTC, but the rest of it was rock solid. I doubt it, but was PL/M the only compiler available for the 80C196? I don't know the rationale for using it. Alexis. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 3 15:09:11 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 13:09:11 -0800 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547F7BF7.6040407@sydex.com> On 12/03/2014 12:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I suspect the same was true of JOVIAL. Maybe it's still used? > > I think I had asked some of the friends, and they though it was pretty > much dead. That was one of the primary languages for WWMCCS, if memory serves--at least that's what I remember from co-workers back then. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 3 15:26:21 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 21:26:21 -0000 Subject: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] References: <01PFBVFITUZG003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <01PFCCE97XUW004LSY@beyondthepale.ie> <201411242114.QAA19897@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PFM1573TO4004QJV@beyondthepale.ie> <547CC48D.7030600@telus.net> Message-ID: <000801d00f3f$e322f660$d958110a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Robertson" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 7:42 PM Subject: Re: List memberships and duplicates [was Re: Yay, now I need some Osborne boot media!] On 12/01/2014, 10:31 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:28:05 -0800 Chris Osborn wrote: > >> On Nov 24, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >>> Me too. I tried unsubbing from cctech and was told I wasn't >>> subscribed. So I've just left it, figuring Jay has bigger fish to fry >>> for the moment - if it really bugged me I'd procmail the cctech copy to >>> /dev/null. If it's still going on whenever it seems to me it's worth >>> mentioning again (a month? two?), I may see if Jay has the spare cycles >>> then to deal with it. >> I?ve been getting the duplicates too and also haven?t said anything for the >> same reasons. I did check the ?List-" headers to see if I was getting a copy > >from cctech, but it?s not coming from there. I suspect what?s happening is >> the cctech is forwarding to cctalk, or has cctalk as a subscriber, and the >> cctalk list is not checking or storing the Message-ID to prevent duplicate >> messages. >> >> Like you, I?m not an expert on mailman. The last time I ran a mailing list >> I used procmail?s SmartList. >> > I am still getting duplicate mails. To recap, I am subscribed to cctech and > one copy of each duplicate is arriving with a cctech From: address and the > second copy is arriving with a cctalk From: address. I have tried to > unsubscribe from cctalk but I never receive the email asking me to confirm > I wish to unsubscribe, suggesting that I am not subscribed to cctalk. > > There have only been a few responses to this thread so it appears that either: > > 1) There are very few people experiencing this problem. > > or > > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and very few find it a problem. > > or > > 2) All cctech subscribers are experiencing it and there are very few people > subscribed to cctech! > > It doesn't look like this is going to be fixed quickly so I decided it's time > to do something before talk of cooking the Thanksgiving turkey turns to talk > of cooking the Christmas turkey. I decided that if I unsubscribe from cctech > and subscribe to cctalk, even though I will still get the off-topic stuff, I > should get a lot less mail because the on-topic stuff should only arrive once, > which is definately an improvement and will do for now. > > In case I might miss anything important, like someone offering a free IBM 3420 > on my doorstep, I decided to subscribe to cctalk first, wait until I start > getting three copies of everything and then unsubscribe from cctech. > > So, I subscribed to cctalk (with the same address I use for cctech which on > reflection may not have been a good idea), replied to the confirmation email > and then received the "Welcome to cctalk" email. However, I have not started > getting three copies of anything. Everything is very much as before, one > copy from from cctalk and usually another some time later from cctech, > presumably after moderator approval. > > I thought I was on to something when one message arrived twice from cctalk and > twice more from cctech but then I found that it appears to have been sent to: > > On-Topic Posts , General at classiccmp.org, and Off-Topic > Posts > > so it's arrival here four times is consistent with previous behaviour. > > So what next? I get the feeling that if I unsubscribe from cctech, I will > stop receiving anything at all and if I unsubscribe from cctalk, nothing will > happen. > > Any suggestions? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > That is similar to what I am getting, except that I am subscribed to CCTALK. and have never been subscribed to CCTECH. Until someone with sufficient Mailman experience comes along, or someone with a time machine to lend to Jay, I don't think this will be fixed for a while. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 3 15:30:46 2014 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:30:46 +0000 Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual In-Reply-To: <20141203142123.E6D7218C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141203142123.E6D7218C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <547F8106.1070207@ntlworld.com> On 03/12/14 14:21, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So not too many differences. Whether this is worth having online also, given that there > are numerous later versions ... dunno. Opinions? Noel Well DEC saw fit to publish multiple versions, so I don't see why it would hurt to have multiple versions online. I know I've scanned multiple versions of the same manual (I can remember perhaps 3 TU58 user guides ...). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From matt at 9track.net Wed Dec 3 15:31:23 2014 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:31:23 +0000 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547F812B.2020804@9track.net> On 03/12/2014 19:30, Richard Loken wrote: > And ADA seems to be pretty much dead. > http://www.adaic.org/advantages/ada-2012/ http://www.adacore.com/ Looks pretty active to me :) Also see comp.lang.ada Matt From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 15:42:25 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 21:42:25 -0000 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F7BF7.6040407@sydex.com> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> <547F7BF7.6040407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <073a01d00f42$076e1f20$164a5d60$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 03 December 2014 21:09 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: C, please die, > > On 12/03/2014 12:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I suspect the same was true of JOVIAL. Maybe it's still used? > > > > I think I had asked some of the friends, and they though it was pretty > > much dead. > > That was one of the primary languages for WWMCCS, if memory serves--at > least that's what I remember from co-workers back then. > > --Chuck Many years ago when I was a Honeywell L66 GCOS systems programmer I was on a course for a new release of GCOS.... ...Around the time there was an "Issue" with WWMCCS reportedly become close to launching an attack without proper authority.... Those of us on the course, who were having issues getting work run on GCOS, which was , we were told the core of WWMCCS at the time were somewhat disbelieving.. .. we said it couldn't happen. Some bright spark said even they want to they can't, the Secret Service will wake the President, and he will log into WWMCCS and type "Launch Missiles" and it would respond "Thank you Mr. President, your job is at position 9 in queue .bang1, estimated time for execution 1 day 4 hours..." Dave G4UGM (Mind you L66 H/w had a boom interrupt so perhaps not...) From mikerm at mikeslab.net Wed Dec 3 16:39:10 2014 From: mikerm at mikeslab.net (Mike M) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:39:10 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Twinax 5250 Style Terminal In-Reply-To: <20141203204545.GA19243@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141203204545.GA19243@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <1417646350.2208309.198534821.20B15F6A@webmail.messagingengine.com> Congratulations! You will need a console directly connected via a console card (through a twinax block as you stated) to do any alternate IPL. You can also get twinax baluns to convert to CAT3 to avoid high cost of twinax if you don't find it anywhere cheap. You will need a 5250 emulator, that is correct. There was a free one out there that was workable, but that is after you have TCP/IP set up if you do actually re-install. If you are installing a version of OS/400, the gotcha comes in that you need a serial number, and IBM will give it to you IF they have the exact same OS/400 version installed that is registered in their system. Otherwise, you have a 70 day trial. Word of warnings and a few cautions (I don't know how familiar you are with these systems): 1. Those are NOT standard PC PCI slots. Any standard PCI card you stick in WILL release the magic smoke. 2. Some cards are compatible with some models of machines. When I had my as/400's, one console card didn't work in the other, it's very frustrating. IBM has all the documentation online for what card part numbers are compatible with what machines. I really miss my big iron machines. AS/400's are really neat machines, but are also very frustrating at times. Mike On Wed, Dec 3, 2014, at 01:45 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > Classic Computer Enthusiasts, > > I should have an IBM 9406-270 arriving today or tomorrow. I think I've > gathered everything I need to attempt an OS install except a console. I > do > have a second NIC that I've been told could be used for console access. > But > I suspect special console software would be required to do so, and all my > PCs at home run Linux which would probably complicate things. I've also > been told that when using a NIC for console access there are several > gotchas > to watch out for, such as a specific slot requirement for the NIC, etc. > This being my first attempt at installing an OS on a 9406 anything that > can > be done to simplify the process and avoid having to worry about gotchas > is > probably a good thing. Plus, I like twinax terminals, especially the > keyboards. So, does anyone have a suitable terminal in need of a good > home? > There are a few available from eBay, but I hate to pay more for a > terminal > than I did for the 270. I'll probably also need the multi-port twinax > connector block that connects to the twinax card in the 270 if anyone has > one to spare. There wasn't one listed in the eBay list for the 270, but > I > might get lucky and have it arrive with one included. > > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.Lassie.xyz > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 3 16:57:23 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:57:23 -0800 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <073a01d00f42$076e1f20$164a5d60$@gmail.com> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> <547F7BF7.6040407@sydex.com> <073a01d00f42$076e1f20$164a5d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547F9553.5080306@sydex.com> On 12/03/2014 01:42 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Many years ago when I was a Honeywell L66 GCOS systems programmer I was on a course for a new release of GCOS.... > ...Around the time there was an "Issue" with WWMCCS reportedly become close to launching an attack without proper authority.... > Those of us on the course, who were having issues getting work run on GCOS, which was , we were told the core of WWMCCS at the time were somewhat disbelieving.. > .. we said it couldn't happen. Some bright spark said even they want to they can't, the Secret Service will wake the President, and he will log into WWMCCS and type "Launch Missiles" and it would respond > "Thank you Mr. President, your job is at position 9 in queue .bang1, estimated time for execution 1 day 4 hours..." Hmmm, that probably explains the "100 usec. guaranteed response time." points in the RFPs we got at CDC... --Chuck From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 3 17:09:21 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:09:21 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line that were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in this mythical world where exploits don't exist... You must be a professional programmer? Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's wrong in programming practice... but I feel like you are faulting the language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong language) hack programmers a pass... Why should it be the responsibility of the language to save programmers from themselves? Not necessarily the best metaphor because I totally appreciate languages like Smalltalk, LISP, et al but I'm too old to be restricted to safety scissors! Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a > > novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} > > programmers? > > Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you stop > at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* programmer, > they'll become proficient in another language. I would go so far as to say > that if they don't become proficient in another language, given a > reasonable > chance to do so, they aren't actually a good programmer, any C programming > ability notwithstanding. > > > Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend > > those hours writing code in a language with which you're already > familiar, > > rather than spending them picking up a new language... > > And continue writing software that has vulnerabilities. When the tools > don't > provide support for writing reliable software, reliable software mostly > doesn't > get written. For every CERT advisory of a vulnerability, there are still a > huge number that have gone undetected so far. > > C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable code > in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the > reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: > > 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even > slightly better semantics (including strong typing) > > 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could > reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software would > still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of service > rather > than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's the > problem of people that use runtime checking during software testing > to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking off for > production, but that's an argument for another day.) > > There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those > problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps > intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with > correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the problem > is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C > programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. > > This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge > glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a hammer... > > Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer > a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates will > point > out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, but > unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and > causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language > than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, plus > additional new ones. > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 17:38:22 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:38:22 -0800 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line that > were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in this > mythical world where exploits don't exist... That's not the line that was given. No one here is claiming there is a language that prevents all exploits. > You must be a professional > programmer? Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's > wrong in programming practice... but I feel like you are faulting the > language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong language) > hack programmers a pass... Why should it be the responsibility of the > language to save programmers from themselves? The reality is that we're all "hack programmers." Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes these mistakes get caught by others, sometimes they don't. Some programming languages can help catch more of these mistakes sooner, or to make some of these mistakes impossible. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need languages to take responsibility to "save programmers from themselves," but we don't live in that world and it's pretty evident that deficiencies in C have resulted in many exploits, even in the hands of experts. - Josh > Not necessarily the best > metaphor because I totally appreciate languages like Smalltalk, LISP, et al > but I'm too old to be restricted to safety scissors! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a > > > novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} > > > programmers? > > > > Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you stop > > at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* > programmer, > > they'll become proficient in another language. I would go so far as to > say > > that if they don't become proficient in another language, given a > > reasonable > > chance to do so, they aren't actually a good programmer, any C > programming > > ability notwithstanding. > > > > > Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend > > > those hours writing code in a language with which you're already > > familiar, > > > rather than spending them picking up a new language... > > > > And continue writing software that has vulnerabilities. When the tools > > don't > > provide support for writing reliable software, reliable software mostly > > doesn't > > get written. For every CERT advisory of a vulnerability, there are > still a > > huge number that have gone undetected so far. > > > > C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable code > > in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the > > reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: > > > > 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even > > slightly better semantics (including strong typing) > > > > 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could > > reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software would > > still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of service > > rather > > than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's the > > problem of people that use runtime checking during software testing > > to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking off > for > > production, but that's an argument for another day.) > > > > There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those > > problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps > > intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with > > correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the problem > > is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C > > programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. > > > > This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge > > glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a hammer... > > > > Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer > > a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates > will > > point > > out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, but > > unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and > > causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language > > than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, > plus > > additional new ones. > > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Dec 3 17:44:40 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:44:40 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Twinax 5250 Style Terminal In-Reply-To: <1417646350.2208309.198534821.20B15F6A@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20141203204545.GA19243@RawFedDogs.net> <1417646350.2208309.198534821.20B15F6A@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20141203234440.GA25343@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 03:39:10PM -0700, Mike M wrote: > Congratulations! Thanks. I'm excited about it. > You will need a 5250 emulator, that is correct. There was a free one out > there that was workable, but that is after you have TCP/IP set up if you > do actually re-install. For Linux I've been using tn5250 and/or tn5250j to connect to the AS/400 where I work and to PUB1.DE. But for use as a console I don't think regular 5250 emulators will work. > If you are installing a version of OS/400, the gotcha comes in that you > need a serial number, and IBM will give it to you IF they have the exact > same OS/400 version installed that is registered in their system. > Otherwise, you have a 70 day trial. Hopefully the serial number will be on my 270 when it arrives. The challenge is getting authorization keys. I've heard that some older boxes have authorization keys tied to them, and if one is lucky enough to find the right person to talk to at IBM it's possible to get said keys transferred to the new new owner. After my first post about this endeavor a while back I was contacted by another list member who said he might be able to help me get the keys for my box once I have the serial number. I know it's a long shot and that I might have resort to restoring or reinstalling every 69 days. > Word of warnings and a few cautions (I don't know how familiar you are > with these systems): I'm not as familiar as I'd like to be with them, and that's part of what inspired me to acquire one of these things. I've worked as an operator in a shop with an IBM mainframe and AS/400 for about 15 years. Well, our latest AS/400 isn't really an AS/400, but we still call it that, or simply "the 400." With our current system operators don't do much with the 400. We mainly take care of the z/OS system. But we're about to start converting from our in-house written mainframe system, with many programs dating back to the early '80s, to LTL/400. > 1. Those are NOT standard PC PCI slots. Any standard PCI card you stick > in WILL release the magic smoke. That's good to know. I suspected that was the case. > 2. Some cards are compatible with some models of machines. When I had my > as/400's, one console card didn't work in the other, it's very > frustrating. IBM has all the documentation online for what card part > numbers are compatible with what machines. The extra NIC I acquired was recommended by another list member after my initial post mentioning this endeavor. It's an IBM 2838-9406 Ethernet card. > I really miss my big iron machines. Sadly I'll eventually be missing the big iron machine I've worked so closely with for many years when our big iron is replaced by more medium iron. > AS/400's are really neat machines, but are also very frustrating at times. This is true. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 17:47:55 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 16:47:55 -0700 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line that > were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in this > mythical world where exploits don't exist... If you use a language in which buffer overruns can't occur, and will either trigger exception handling or abort the program, then almost all circumstances that are privilege escalation or information disclosure due to buffer overruns in C or C++ program become at worst denial of service. I'm not arguing that we don't need to be concerned with DoS vulnerabilities, but that they are far less severe. So if simply by programming in a different language you can substantially reduce the severity of an entire class of bugs, why wouldn't you do it? I haven't tried to count them, but it seems like a very large number of tracked vulnerabilities are due to buffer overruns and related problems that fall into this category. > You must be a professional programmer? Yes. > Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's wrong in programming practice... Yes. > but I feel like you are faulting the > language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong language) > hack programmers a pass... That's the argument that only if programmers were smarter or more disciplined, these problems wouldn't occur. That's a nice hypothesis, but I don't buy it, because software written by some of the world's smartest and most disciplined C and C++ programmers still routinely exhibit these problems. Programming is *hard*, and debugging is even *harder*. If you can use a tool that doesn't help much, or a different tool that helps more, why would you want to stick with the less helpful tool? > Why should it be the responsibility of the language to save programmers from themselves? Why should a table saw have a finger guard? In the case of the table saw, having a safety feature is even less important than in a programming language. With an unsafe table saw, I'm likely to only cause harm to myself. With an unsafe programming language, a programmer can cause problems for literally billions of people (e.g., exploits of bugs in Windows, MacOS, Linux). I'm not arguing that the language should totally disallow doing anything it thinks is questionable. I'm arguing that it should by *default* disable doing such things, and require the programmer to take explicit action to circumvent the normal checking when there's a good reason to do so. (On the other hand, I think most programmers are too willing to jump to the conclusion that such is necessary, without spending enough time analyzing the real problem.) From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 3 17:58:00 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:58:00 -0800 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D15DBF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D15DBF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <547FA388.2030801@jwsss.com> On 12/3/2014 10:44 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Zane Healy > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 8:37 PM > >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Rich Alderson >> wrote: >>> I used Multics Emacs > [snip] > >> If it ran on Multics, I find myself wondering if it ran on GCOS-8. The only thing we used on our Multics 6180 was the Cobol compiler. Multics did not have one at the time, and I don't know if anyone ported one after the 75 timeframe I was using it. FWIW, the Multics Simulator which uses the sources and binaries posted by Al is coming along nicely. It has limited ring1 admin running (with bugs) on the console. They also were able to take the release they had and do the multics equivalent of creating a boot tape. There are a myriad of bugs to fix, but an amazing amount works now. At the time I was on Multics, in 75, I think all the people working on Emacs used the MIT machine for development. Also Macsyma was being developed and hosted on Multics. Jim > I can't say. It was written in Multics MACLISP, so if *that* ran on > GCOS... > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 3 18:02:20 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 19:02:20 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I suppose not. Perhaps more that using a language that Isn't C and offers (1) and (2) will ameliorate 99.99% of the problems that follow from using C incorrectly. Certainly that's true. Can't shoot yourself in the foot if you don't own a gun. But that's not much to talk about :) I have a habit of using hyperbole and I guess I really shouldn't because 99.99% of the population of Earth apparently finds it simply discrediting, rather than a come-on for a debate!! I have a lot of hang-ups from my experience in school and in the new-millennium job market... there are so few opportunities these days; the people that get the chance to take them; who get to be real programmers and real engineers; they had better be good. Otherwise you can just play on nights and weekends like I do. To me, part of being a professional and doing the job right is not making mistakes. Certainly that's the standard I hold myself to as a Systems Administrator. People who nail up their shingle as a professional and subsequently ship buggy garbage don't need a new language to save them from themselves; they need a new line of work (whoa, polarizing!) Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line > that > > were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in > this > > mythical world where exploits don't exist... > > > That's not the line that was given. No one here is claiming there is a > language that prevents all exploits. > > > > > You must be a professional > > programmer? Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's > > wrong in programming practice... but I feel like you are faulting the > > language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong language) > > hack programmers a pass... Why should it be the responsibility of the > > language to save programmers from themselves? > > > The reality is that we're all "hack programmers." Everyone makes > mistakes. Sometimes these mistakes get caught by others, sometimes they > don't. Some programming languages can help catch more of these mistakes > sooner, or to make some of these mistakes impossible. > > In a perfect world, we wouldn't need languages to take responsibility to > "save programmers from themselves," but we don't live in that world and > it's pretty evident that deficiencies in C have resulted in many exploits, > even in the hands of experts. > > - Josh > > > > > Not necessarily the best > > metaphor because I totally appreciate languages like Smalltalk, LISP, et > al > > but I'm too old to be restricted to safety scissors! > > > > Best, > > > > Sean > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > > But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a > > > > novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} > > > > programmers? > > > > > > Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you > stop > > > at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* > > programmer, > > > they'll become proficient in another language. I would go so far as to > > say > > > that if they don't become proficient in another language, given a > > > reasonable > > > chance to do so, they aren't actually a good programmer, any C > > programming > > > ability notwithstanding. > > > > > > > Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend > > > > those hours writing code in a language with which you're already > > > familiar, > > > > rather than spending them picking up a new language... > > > > > > And continue writing software that has vulnerabilities. When the tools > > > don't > > > provide support for writing reliable software, reliable software mostly > > > doesn't > > > get written. For every CERT advisory of a vulnerability, there are > > still a > > > huge number that have gone undetected so far. > > > > > > C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable > code > > > in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the > > > reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: > > > > > > 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even > > > slightly better semantics (including strong typing) > > > > > > 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could > > > reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software would > > > still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of service > > > rather > > > than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's > the > > > problem of people that use runtime checking during software testing > > > to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking off > > for > > > production, but that's an argument for another day.) > > > > > > There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those > > > problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps > > > intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with > > > correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the problem > > > is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C > > > programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. > > > > > > This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge > > > glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a hammer... > > > > > > Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer > > > a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates > > will > > > point > > > out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, > but > > > unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and > > > causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language > > > than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, > > plus > > > additional new ones. > > > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 3 18:02:27 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:02:27 -0800 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F9553.5080306@sydex.com> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> <547F73FA.3080509@sydex.com> <547F7BF7.6040407@sydex.com> <073a01d00f42$076e1f20$164a5d60$@gmail.com> <547F9553.5080306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <547FA493.9040703@jwsss.com> On 12/3/2014 2:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/03/2014 01:42 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> Many years ago when I was a Honeywell L66 GCOS systems programmer I >> was on a course for a new release of GCOS.... >> ...Around the time there was an "Issue" with WWMCCS reportedly become >> close to launching an attack without proper authority.... >> Those of us on the course, who were having issues getting work run on >> GCOS, which was , we were told the core of WWMCCS at the time were >> somewhat disbelieving.. >> .. we said it couldn't happen. Some bright spark said even they want >> to they can't, the Secret Service will wake the President, and he >> will log into WWMCCS and type "Launch Missiles" and it would respond >> "Thank you Mr. President, your job is at position 9 in queue >> .bang1, estimated time for execution 1 day 4 hours..." > > Hmmm, that probably explains the "100 usec. guaranteed response time." > points in the RFPs we got at CDC... > > --Chuck > > > Or if you were on Multics, you could get the console messages in Latin courtesy of a bored programmer. We had a processor that could run both Multics and Gcos concurrently, on the 6180. I don't think they did much with GCOS, however, other than to run some Cobol compiles for some classes taught at the university where we were located. I don't know how the system and console side was managed. The physical GE Terminet console was owned by Multics. I don't know if there was a separate real or a virtual console for the GCOS system. JIm From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 3 18:33:44 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 19:33:44 -0500 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FA388.2030801@jwsss.com> References: <20141202190307.319F718C118@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D14883@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1C39CBEA-6777-4D12-9AE2-F1B1AB7562DA@aracnet.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D15DBF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <547FA388.2030801@jwsss.com> Message-ID: That is exciting news! I occasionally peek around to try to take the temperature of H-6180 emulation... It will be a great day when I can load up my own Multics! Getting the chance to actually use Multics has long been a wish of mine. I finally got the chance to try my own alma mater's contribution to that time in history, Michigan Terminal System, under Hercules when the binary tape images were released a few years back... Now I'm just waiting on Multics, then I will be sated ;) Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:58 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 12/3/2014 10:44 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> From: Zane Healy >> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 8:37 PM >> >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Rich Alderson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I used Multics Emacs >>>> >>> [snip] >> >> If it ran on Multics, I find myself wondering if it ran on GCOS-8. >>> >> The only thing we used on our Multics 6180 was the Cobol compiler. > Multics did not have one at the time, and I don't know if anyone ported one > after the 75 timeframe I was using it. > > FWIW, the Multics Simulator which uses the sources and binaries posted by > Al is coming along nicely. It has limited ring1 admin running (with bugs) > on the console. They also were able to take the release they had and do > the multics equivalent of creating a boot tape. > > There are a myriad of bugs to fix, but an amazing amount works now. > > At the time I was on Multics, in 75, I think all the people working on > Emacs used the MIT machine for development. Also Macsyma was being > developed and hosted on Multics. > Jim > > > I can't say. It was written in Multics MACLISP, so if *that* ran on >> GCOS... >> >> Rich >> >> >> Rich Alderson >> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer >> Living Computer Museum >> 2245 1st Avenue S >> Seattle, WA 98134 >> >> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org >> >> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ >> >> >> > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 19:16:06 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 17:16:06 -0800 Subject: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547FB5D6.8070109@gmail.com> On 12/3/2014 12:12 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Alternately, if anyone needs an MX-30 board set (sans memory) for a >> restoration, drop me a line and maybe we can work something out. Hate to >> sit on this forever and never get anything working... > I certainly don't *need* one, and I'd be in the same boat w/ regard to > not being able to use it without the suitable memory. I'm thinking > about designing a new static RAM board for the 9830 for the 2015/07 > retrochallenge. If all the MX-30 needs is memory that is faster than > the stock HP memory, it's possible that a new static RAM board might > work. > > I'd be very interested in high-resolution photos or scans of both > sides of both boards. > That would be a fun and worthwhile project; I wish I had more information about the MX-30 RAM and how it's different. Infotek basically replaced every HP component (except the backplane) with the MX-30, so it could be radically different than the original. The HP Museum has some pretty good pictures, see here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=1060. If you need something more detailed, let me know and I can run them through my scanner (not the feeder portion). - Josh From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 20:45:37 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 03:45:37 +0100 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> This argument is so old, and so tiring. Can't we just bury it? Yes, some bugs will be caught by stronger types and more type checking. The same stronger type system will cause people to swear and be upset and try to work around it from time to time. Some people are better at not making silly errors than others, but all people sometimes do create errors. People who are more prone to create errors will obviously gain more from type checking. However, I've found that this same group of people are also very creative in writing logical bugs in programs, which no type system ever will catch. Essentially - stupid programmers will create bugs in any language. Unfortunately, as education moves more and more into just teaching stuff like Java and Scheme, people understand computers in a more and more abstract way, and start doing more and more weird broken things that people 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be thinking of how this translates into machine code much more. So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter language is our only hope. But for people who are good at programming, the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying and reduces productivity, for much less gain. In the end, no one size fits all. There. Can we agree to disagree on what is the best now? (And yes, I've actually done professional work in Ada, which is really fascist on a level most who have not used it can't imagine, and I've written really big projects in assembler language.) Johnny On 2014-12-04 01:02, Sean Caron wrote: > I suppose not. Perhaps more that using a language that Isn't C and offers > (1) and (2) will ameliorate 99.99% of the problems that follow from using C > incorrectly. Certainly that's true. Can't shoot yourself in the foot if you > don't own a gun. But that's not much to talk about :) I have a habit of > using hyperbole and I guess I really shouldn't because 99.99% of the > population of Earth apparently finds it simply discrediting, rather than a > come-on for a debate!! > > I have a lot of hang-ups from my experience in school and in the > new-millennium job market... there are so few opportunities these days; the > people that get the chance to take them; who get to be real programmers and > real engineers; they had better be good. Otherwise you can just play on > nights and weekends like I do. To me, part of being a professional and > doing the job right is not making mistakes. Certainly that's the standard I > hold myself to as a Systems Administrator. People who nail up their shingle > as a professional and subsequently ship buggy garbage don't need a new > language to save them from themselves; they need a new line of work (whoa, > polarizing!) > > Best, > > Sean > > > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line >> that >>> were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in >> this >>> mythical world where exploits don't exist... >> >> >> That's not the line that was given. No one here is claiming there is a >> language that prevents all exploits. >> >> >> >>> You must be a professional >>> programmer? Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's >>> wrong in programming practice... but I feel like you are faulting the >>> language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong language) >>> hack programmers a pass... Why should it be the responsibility of the >>> language to save programmers from themselves? >> >> >> The reality is that we're all "hack programmers." Everyone makes >> mistakes. Sometimes these mistakes get caught by others, sometimes they >> don't. Some programming languages can help catch more of these mistakes >> sooner, or to make some of these mistakes impossible. >> >> In a perfect world, we wouldn't need languages to take responsibility to >> "save programmers from themselves," but we don't live in that world and >> it's pretty evident that deficiencies in C have resulted in many exploits, >> even in the hands of experts. >> >> - Josh >> >> >> >>> Not necessarily the best >>> metaphor because I totally appreciate languages like Smalltalk, LISP, et >> al >>> but I'm too old to be restricted to safety scissors! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >>>>> But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a >>>>> novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} >>>>> programmers? >>>> >>>> Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you >> stop >>>> at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* >>> programmer, >>>> they'll become proficient in another language. I would go so far as to >>> say >>>> that if they don't become proficient in another language, given a >>>> reasonable >>>> chance to do so, they aren't actually a good programmer, any C >>> programming >>>> ability notwithstanding. >>>> >>>>> Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend >>>>> those hours writing code in a language with which you're already >>>> familiar, >>>>> rather than spending them picking up a new language... >>>> >>>> And continue writing software that has vulnerabilities. When the tools >>>> don't >>>> provide support for writing reliable software, reliable software mostly >>>> doesn't >>>> get written. For every CERT advisory of a vulnerability, there are >>> still a >>>> huge number that have gone undetected so far. >>>> >>>> C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable >> code >>>> in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the >>>> reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: >>>> >>>> 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even >>>> slightly better semantics (including strong typing) >>>> >>>> 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could >>>> reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software would >>>> still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of service >>>> rather >>>> than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's >> the >>>> problem of people that use runtime checking during software testing >>>> to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking off >>> for >>>> production, but that's an argument for another day.) >>>> >>>> There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those >>>> problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps >>>> intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with >>>> correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the problem >>>> is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C >>>> programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. >>>> >>>> This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge >>>> glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a hammer... >>>> >>>> Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer >>>> a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates >>> will >>>> point >>>> out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, >> but >>>> unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and >>>> causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language >>>> than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, >>> plus >>>> additional new ones. >>>> >>> >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 3 20:57:41 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:57:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141203185408.O81801@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Essentially - stupid programmers will create bugs in any language. Naah. "A Real programmer can write a bug in any language." THAT sums it all up. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 21:01:05 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:01:05 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547FCE71.80103@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 9:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > This argument is so old, and so tiring. > > Can't we just bury it? > > Yes, some bugs will be caught by stronger types and more type checking. > The same stronger type system will cause people to swear and be upset > and try to work around it from time to time. I don't see this happen. It certainly doesn't happen to me. However, dynamic langs waste hours and days of my time debugging. > > Some people are better at not making silly errors than others, but all > people sometimes do create errors. > > People who are more prone to create errors will obviously gain more from > type checking. We *all* make errors. > However, I've found that this same group of people are > also very creative in writing logical bugs in programs, which no type > system ever will catch. > > Essentially - stupid programmers will create bugs in any language. > *All* programmers. "A sufficiently smart programmer" does not exist. > Unfortunately, as education moves more and more into just teaching stuff > like Java and Scheme, people understand computers in a more and more > abstract way, and start doing more and more weird broken things that > people 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be > thinking of how this translates into machine code much more. Abstraction is your friend. It is there to help you make fewer errors. Most bugs can be traced to working at the wrong level of abstraction. (And also a lot of wasted effort.) > > So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter > language is our only hope. But for people who are good at programming, > the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying and reduces > productivity, for much less gain. Education isn't the answer. Better tools have always been the answer. This business is culturally unable to admit that some tools are just bad. I see the costs every day. :-) --Toby > > In the end, no one size fits all. > > There. Can we agree to disagree on what is the best now? > (And yes, I've actually done professional work in Ada, which is really > fascist on a level most who have not used it can't imagine, and I've > written really big projects in assembler language.) > > Johnny > > On 2014-12-04 01:02, Sean Caron wrote: >> I suppose not. Perhaps more that using a language that Isn't C and offers >> (1) and (2) will ameliorate 99.99% of the problems that follow from >> using C >> incorrectly. Certainly that's true. Can't shoot yourself in the foot >> if you >> don't own a gun. But that's not much to talk about :) I have a habit of >> using hyperbole and I guess I really shouldn't because 99.99% of the >> population of Earth apparently finds it simply discrediting, rather >> than a >> come-on for a debate!! >> >> I have a lot of hang-ups from my experience in school and in the >> new-millennium job market... there are so few opportunities these >> days; the >> people that get the chance to take them; who get to be real >> programmers and >> real engineers; they had better be good. Otherwise you can just play on >> nights and weekends like I do. To me, part of being a professional and >> doing the job right is not making mistakes. Certainly that's the >> standard I >> hold myself to as a Systems Administrator. People who nail up their >> shingle >> as a professional and subsequently ship buggy garbage don't need a new >> language to save them from themselves; they need a new line of work >> (whoa, >> polarizing!) >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >>> >>>> Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line >>> that >>>> were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in >>> this >>>> mythical world where exploits don't exist... >>> >>> >>> That's not the line that was given. No one here is claiming there is a >>> language that prevents all exploits. >>> >>> >>> >>>> You must be a professional >>>> programmer? Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's >>>> wrong in programming practice... but I feel like you are faulting the >>>> language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong >>>> language) >>>> hack programmers a pass... Why should it be the responsibility of the >>>> language to save programmers from themselves? >>> >>> >>> The reality is that we're all "hack programmers." Everyone makes >>> mistakes. Sometimes these mistakes get caught by others, sometimes they >>> don't. Some programming languages can help catch more of these mistakes >>> sooner, or to make some of these mistakes impossible. >>> >>> In a perfect world, we wouldn't need languages to take responsibility to >>> "save programmers from themselves," but we don't live in that world and >>> it's pretty evident that deficiencies in C have resulted in many >>> exploits, >>> even in the hands of experts. >>> >>> - Josh >>> >>> >>> >>>> Not necessarily the best >>>> metaphor because I totally appreciate languages like Smalltalk, >>>> LISP, et >>> al >>>> but I'm too old to be restricted to safety scissors! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >>>>>> But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a >>>>>> novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} >>>>>> programmers? >>>>> >>>>> Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you >>> stop >>>>> at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* >>>> programmer, >>>>> they'll become proficient in another language. I would go so far as to >>>> say >>>>> that if they don't become proficient in another language, given a >>>>> reasonable >>>>> chance to do so, they aren't actually a good programmer, any C >>>> programming >>>>> ability notwithstanding. >>>>> >>>>>> Given a short time frame, perhaps it's more effective to spend >>>>>> those hours writing code in a language with which you're already >>>>> familiar, >>>>>> rather than spending them picking up a new language... >>>>> >>>>> And continue writing software that has vulnerabilities. When the tools >>>>> don't >>>>> provide support for writing reliable software, reliable software >>>>> mostly >>>>> doesn't >>>>> get written. For every CERT advisory of a vulnerability, there are >>>> still a >>>>> huge number that have gone undetected so far. >>>>> >>>>> C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable >>> code >>>>> in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the >>>>> reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: >>>>> >>>>> 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even >>>>> slightly better semantics (including strong typing) >>>>> >>>>> 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could >>>>> reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software >>>>> would >>>>> still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of >>>>> service >>>>> rather >>>>> than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's >>> the >>>>> problem of people that use runtime checking during software >>>>> testing >>>>> to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking >>>>> off >>>> for >>>>> production, but that's an argument for another day.) >>>>> >>>>> There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those >>>>> problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps >>>>> intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with >>>>> correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the >>>>> problem >>>>> is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C >>>>> programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. >>>>> >>>>> This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge >>>>> glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a >>>>> hammer... >>>>> >>>>> Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer >>>>> a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates >>>> will >>>>> point >>>>> out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, >>> but >>>>> unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and >>>>> causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language >>>>> than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, >>>> plus >>>>> additional new ones. >>>>> >>>> >>> > > From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 21:03:48 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 04:03:48 +0100 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141203185408.O81801@shell.lmi.net> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <20141203185408.O81801@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <547FCF14.90408@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-04 03:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Essentially - stupid programmers will create bugs in any language. > > > Naah. > > "A Real programmer can write a bug in any language." > > THAT sums it all up. :-) However, I don't think our two statements are mutually exclusive... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 21:19:20 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 04:19:20 +0100 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FCE71.80103@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FCE71.80103@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547FD2B8.3010204@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-04 04:01, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/12/14 9:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> This argument is so old, and so tiring. >> >> Can't we just bury it? >> >> Yes, some bugs will be caught by stronger types and more type checking. >> The same stronger type system will cause people to swear and be upset >> and try to work around it from time to time. > > I don't see this happen. It certainly doesn't happen to me. Any comments like that just make me take the person less seriously. Either you are forgetting it, ignoring it, or you are writing really trivial programs. > However, dynamic langs waste hours and days of my time debugging. That is a potential downside, yes. How much varies per person. Just as the "have to work around the type system" time varies per person. >> Some people are better at not making silly errors than others, but all >> people sometimes do create errors. >> >> People who are more prone to create errors will obviously gain more from >> type checking. > > We *all* make errors. I think I said exactly that. Just look at what you quoted. > > However, I've found that this same group of people are >> also very creative in writing logical bugs in programs, which no type >> system ever will catch. >> >> Essentially - stupid programmers will create bugs in any language. >> > > *All* programmers. "A sufficiently smart programmer" does not exist. You are starting to sound like a bigot. You are not reading what I wrote, but instead are just trying to preach. >> Unfortunately, as education moves more and more into just teaching stuff >> like Java and Scheme, people understand computers in a more and more >> abstract way, and start doing more and more weird broken things that >> people 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be >> thinking of how this translates into machine code much more. > > Abstraction is your friend. It is there to help you make fewer errors. > Most bugs can be traced to working at the wrong level of abstraction. > (And also a lot of wasted effort.) Depends, and varies per person. >> So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter >> language is our only hope. But for people who are good at programming, >> the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying and reduces >> productivity, for much less gain. > > Education isn't the answer. Better tools have always been the answer. > This business is culturally unable to admit that some tools are just bad. I believe I just ruled out education above, and noted that better tools are the only hope. Why are you repeating what I write, while trying to argue against me? We only differ in the reason why things looks the way they do today. And reasons do not actually change what is needed. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 21:25:03 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:25:03 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547FD40F.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 6:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line that >> were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in this >> mythical world where exploits don't exist... > > If you use a language in which buffer overruns can't occur, and will > either trigger exception handling or abort the program, then almost > all circumstances that are privilege escalation or information > disclosure due to buffer overruns in C or C++ program become at worst > denial of service. I'm not arguing that we don't need to be concerned > with DoS vulnerabilities, but that they are far less severe. > > So if simply by programming in a different language you can > substantially reduce the severity of an entire class of bugs, why > wouldn't you do it? +1000. That's it, in a nutshell. > > I haven't tried to count them, but it seems like a very large number > of tracked vulnerabilities are due to buffer overruns and related > problems that fall into this category. > >> You must be a professional programmer? > > Yes. Same. > >> Certainly you have strong ideas of what's right and what's wrong in programming practice... > > Yes. > >> but I feel like you are faulting the >> language here while giving what are essentially (sorry, strong language) >> hack programmers a pass... > > That's the argument that only if programmers were smarter or more > disciplined, these problems wouldn't occur. That's a nice hypothesis, > but I don't buy it, because software written by some of the world's > smartest and most disciplined C and C++ programmers still routinely > exhibit these problems. Yes. There is NO "sufficiently smart programmer". But let's assume that one exists. Imagine what they could do with better tools (let alone the rest of us)! Sometimes it's just not about the user, it's about the tool. Maybe we should be having this debate with the hypothetical programmer who doesn't make type bugs, memory safety bugs, or concurrency bugs. Perhaps they can tell us what we're all doing wrong? Anyone with enough experience will straight out admit that they can't for example manage mutable state with sufficient reliability, let alone mutable state with concurrency. You'll meet many seasoned programmers who have figured that out. We even have many good strategies for eliminating many classes of bugs (which aren't "just use C better, idiot"). It's professionally inept to ignore them. > > Programming is *hard*, and debugging is even *harder*. If you can use > a tool that doesn't help much, or a different tool that helps more, > why would you want to stick with the less helpful tool? > But here we are. Having to defend the idea that "simple mechanical checks of program properties"* are a bad idea (machines happen to be much better, not to mention millions of times faster, than humans at this; which is why I waste hours on silly JavaScript or PHP or Blub bugs that a compiler can check in microseconds). That is an expensive waste of programmer time. (Also see Gershom Bazerman's quote linked below.) >> Why should it be the responsibility of the language to save programmers from themselves? Because that is _precisely_ what languages and abstractions exist to do. > > Why should a table saw have a finger guard? Any sufficiently smart carpenter will never injure themselves in a career! > > In the case of the table saw, having a safety feature is even less > important than in a programming language. With an unsafe table saw, > I'm likely to only cause harm to myself. With an unsafe programming > language, a programmer can cause problems for literally billions of > people (e.g., exploits of bugs in Windows, MacOS, Linux). > I like writing assembler from time to time. But I don't try to write business services in it; I'd be fired, and rightly so. Tools at the wrong level of abstraction are only shades of the same error. --Toby * - Benjamin Pierce's words. For more expert opinions: http://ur1.ca/iz36o > I'm not arguing that the language should totally disallow doing > anything it thinks is questionable. I'm arguing that it should by > *default* disable doing such things, and require the programmer to > take explicit action to circumvent the normal checking when there's a > good reason to do so. (On the other hand, I think most programmers > are too willing to jump to the conclusion that such is necessary, > without spending enough time analyzing the real problem.) > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:25:27 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 21:25:27 -0600 Subject: Can you ID / document this RS-232 to Current Loop converter? Message-ID: Hey gents, I tried the greenkeys list, but to no avail. So let's see who knows what around here... I recently acquired a pair of these RS-232 -to- CL converters. They are branded "ED&M" or possibly "EDeM" - but they seem to have been made by an outfit called Camiacs. They are marked Model V or Model 5. The circuit boards are marked "CAM 25-116A" in one corner. Photos can be seen here: https://nerp.net/~legendre/greenkeys/rs232_cl_converter_01.jpg https://nerp.net/~legendre/greenkeys/rs232_cl_converter_02.jpg Does anyone have documents for these units? They have several sets of internal jumpers, to configure various RS-232 parameters as well as passive / active states for the current loop side - Rx+ / Rx- Tx+ / Tx- etc. Any ideas? Any documents? Thanks in advance! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 21:25:50 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:25:50 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547FD43E.1090300@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 6:38 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Clearly you're on a religious crusade here.. I just don't buy the line that >> were it not for everyone using this pesky C language, we could live in this >> mythical world where exploits don't exist... > > > That's not the line that was given. No one here is claiming there is a > language that prevents all exploits. > Correct. It was a ridiculous strawman, easy to spot. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 21:30:15 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:30:15 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547FD547.10901@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 3:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >> But is there necessarily a win in turning a crack C programmer into a >> novice {Smalltalk, LISP, insert your favorite language here...} >> programmers? > > Of what use is a newborn baby? Of *course* it's of no value if you stop > at turning them into a novice. But if they're actually a *good* programmer, > they'll become proficient in another language. ... > > C advocates always claim that a good programmer will write reliable code > in C, and in a vanishingly small number of cases that's true, but the > reality is that 99.9999% of C code has bugs that either: > > 1) could have been caught by static analysis in a language with even > slightly better semantics (including strong typing) > > 2) could have been caught at runtime if the language semantics could > reasonably support bounds checking. In this case the software would > still have a bug, but at worst it would result in denial of service rather > than privilege escalation and information leakage. (Then there's the > problem of people that use runtime checking during software testing > to protect their valuable test data, but turn runtime checking off for > production, but that's an argument for another day.) > > There has been a huge amount of research into how to solve those > problems in C, with only partial results. It's a difficult and perhaps > intractable problem because C is a portable assembly language, with > correspondingly low level semantics The "easy" way to solve the problem > is not coming up with bandaids for C, or trying to better train C > programmers; it is to abandon C for a reasonable language. Not only that - the semantics of C can even get in the way of it being FAST. So there goes one of the brogrammer talking points... > > This doesn't happen at least in part due to managers seeing a huge > glut of C programmers on the market. When all you've got is a hammer... > > Note that the same arguments apply to C++. While C++ is no longer > a proper superset of C, it still is close to being one. C++ advocates will point > out that a lot of the new stuff in C++ is safer than the old C stuff, but > unfortunately as long as the old C stuff is in there, it gets used and > causes the same old problems. Rather than C++ being a better language > than C, it's a worse language, because it has *all* of the C defects, plus > additional new ones. > Definitely. And Go seems doomed to make a similar plethora of bad choices. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 3 21:34:26 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:34:26 -0500 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FD2B8.3010204@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FCE71.80103@telegraphics.com.au> <547FD2B8.3010204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547FD642.7090603@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/12/14 10:19 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-04 04:01, Toby Thain wrote: >> ... >> *All* programmers. "A sufficiently smart programmer" does not exist. > > You are starting to sound like a bigot. You are not reading what I > wrote, but instead are just trying to preach. > It's not bigotry to admit that 100% of us are fallible. I notice it is the more experienced programmers who are more prepared to make this admission. Why is it so ridiculous to suggest better tools? It's not even a new suggestion; as far as I know, people have been working on better tools since the invention of the computer. Time did NOT stop in 1973. --Toby From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 3 21:43:15 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 04:43:15 +0100 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FD642.7090603@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FCE71.80103@telegraphics.com.au> <547FD2B8.3010204@update.uu.se> <547FD642.7090603@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <547FD853.6020004@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-04 04:34, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/12/14 10:19 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2014-12-04 04:01, Toby Thain wrote: >>> ... >>> *All* programmers. "A sufficiently smart programmer" does not exist. >> >> You are starting to sound like a bigot. You are not reading what I >> wrote, but instead are just trying to preach. >> > > It's not bigotry to admit that 100% of us are fallible. It is bigotry to not read what the other person wrote, and instead just write your own thing. And then try to pretend that you stand for reason. It is not reasonable to not listen as well as speak. Then it is called preaching. > I notice it is the more experienced programmers who are more prepared to > make this admission. > > Why is it so ridiculous to suggest better tools? It's not even a new > suggestion; as far as I know, people have been working on better tools > since the invention of the computer. > > Time did NOT stop in 1973. I see you still did not read what I wrote... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:05:38 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:05:38 -0800 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <547FDD92.8040409@gmail.com> On 12/3/2014 6:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be thinking > of how this translates into machine code much more. > > So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter > language is our only hope. But for people who are good at > programming, the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying and > reduces productivity, for much less gain. > > I've not found this to be true in my experience -- what "obstacles" are you speaking of? > In the end, no one size fits all. Agreed, but not for the reason you use above; if I'm reading your statement right your sizes are: "C: for people who are good at programming" and "stricter languages: for people who need help." No one size fits all in that some languages are suitable for certain tasks, and some are more suitable for others. The discussion here is mainly that C is applied in many areas where it is not the best choice. - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:58:06 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:58:06 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Corvus Concept parts Message-ID: <547FE9DE.2050901@gmail.com> Another one that's been on the back-burner for a long time. I have the main CPU unit, complete, but no monitor, keyboard or storage devices. Anyone out there have any of these lying around? Alternately, anyone looking for the main CPU unit to complete their system? Drop me a line... - Josh From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 23:04:32 2014 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:04:32 -0700 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F7B3B.90509@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <547F5BF1.9040902@sydex.com> <20141203195049.GF13079@n0jcf.net> <547F7B3B.90509@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <547FEB60.6020503@gmail.com> On 12/3/2014 2:06 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > I'll mention in a previous job, one of the embedded systems we repaired > used an MCS-96 microcontroller and the firmware was written in PL/M. I > believe they were designed in the 90's and as far as I know, they're > still being used today. The repair usually involved replacing the Dallas > RTC, but the rest of it was rock solid. > > I doubt it, but was PL/M the only compiler available for the 80C196? I > don't know the rationale for using it. > > Alexis. We had an Intel C compiler for the 80C196 hosted on a VAX. I think that BSO created the compiler for Intel - but that was a long time ago. I know that that product is still shipping. Most of our code was assembly language. Rob. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 3 23:21:51 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:21:51 -0800 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FDD92.8040409@gmail.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FDD92.8040409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547FEF6F.9030206@shiresoft.com> On 12/3/14 8:05 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/3/2014 6:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be thinking >> of how this translates into machine code much more. >> >> So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter >> language is our only hope. But for people who are good at >> programming, the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying and >> reduces productivity, for much less gain. >> >> > > I've not found this to be true in my experience -- what "obstacles" > are you speaking of? > >> In the end, no one size fits all. > > Agreed, but not for the reason you use above; if I'm reading your > statement right your sizes are: "C: for people who are good at > programming" and "stricter languages: for people who need help." No > one size fits all in that some languages are suitable for certain > tasks, and some are more suitable for others. The discussion here is > mainly that C is applied in many areas where it is not the best choice. > What is being missed in this discussion is that stricter languages (by their very definition) tend to be more complex and require more complex runtimes. Also remember that the languages/runtimes are also implemented in something and usually *not* the language that is being presented, so the language may present a somewhat less error prone environment to be written in but it doesn't mean that the compiler/interpreter/runtime are free from nasty bugs that show up in strange and unexpected ways that can be just as dangerous as the problems being discussed earlier in this thread. No language is going to prevent all bugs. Not all languages are suited for all purposes. Yes, heavily typed languages *help* in discovering bugs at compile time. However, there are situations where not having a heavily typed language is the proper choice. For example I wouldn't try and write RTL in Scheme or Go; I'd use Verilog or VHDL. In general these arguments piss me off because in general they're meaningless arguments (as most religious arguments are). This reminds me about a conference where some professor came in to tell a bunch of mainframe folks that COBOL was dead and that all of it should be tossed and re-written in an OO language because that will solve their problems and improve productivity. It was at this point that someone stood up and asked a question about how much code would actually have to be re-written. The answer came back from the professor: "All of it". Uh-huh. The questioner said that meant that several *billion* lines of code would be re-written if that was the case. The professor turned white and promptly sat down. The moral is, you might have a new language that solves all of the known problems but but you don't have the time, manpower or the $'s to re-write everything. As has been said before, C is really a portable assembler. Get over it. A tremendous amount of IBM Mainframe code (360/370/390/etc) is written in assembler and folks aren't saying that 360/370 assembler is the spawn of the devil (well maybe they are and I'm not on the right mailing lists). ;-) TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 23:45:19 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:45:19 -0800 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FEF6F.9030206@shiresoft.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FDD92.8040409@gmail.com> <547FEF6F.9030206@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <547FF4EF.3010305@gmail.com> On 12/3/2014 9:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On 12/3/14 8:05 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 12/3/2014 6:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be thinking >>> of how this translates into machine code much more. >>> >>> So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter >>> language is our only hope. But for people who are good at >>> programming, the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying >>> and reduces productivity, for much less gain. >>> >>> >> >> I've not found this to be true in my experience -- what "obstacles" >> are you speaking of? >> >>> In the end, no one size fits all. >> >> Agreed, but not for the reason you use above; if I'm reading your >> statement right your sizes are: "C: for people who are good at >> programming" and "stricter languages: for people who need help." No >> one size fits all in that some languages are suitable for certain >> tasks, and some are more suitable for others. The discussion here is >> mainly that C is applied in many areas where it is not the best choice. >> > What is being missed in this discussion is that stricter languages (by > their very definition) tend to be > more complex and require more complex runtimes. Also remember that > the languages/runtimes are > also implemented in something and usually *not* the language that is > being presented, so the language > may present a somewhat less error prone environment to be written in > but it doesn't mean that the > compiler/interpreter/runtime are free from nasty bugs that show up in > strange and unexpected ways > that can be just as dangerous as the problems being discussed earlier > in this thread. Sure, there are bugs in compiler/interpreter/runtime implementations, just like anything else, but the benefit is that once the bugs are worked out of that, then everyone benefits from that point on. e.g. the Java Garbage Collector only has to be perfected once (for a reasonable approximation of "perfected") whereas manual memory management in C or Reference Counted objects C++ are implemented over and over and over again by every developer who needs to allocate memory. Bounds checking only needs to be implemented correctly once in the runtime, whereas in C every time a developer makes a fencepost error when indexing into an array, an exploit is born. > > No language is going to prevent all bugs. Not all languages are > suited for all purposes. Yes, heavily > typed languages *help* in discovering bugs at compile time. However, > there are situations where > not having a heavily typed language is the proper choice. For example > I wouldn't try and write RTL > in Scheme or Go; I'd use Verilog or VHDL. I think we're all in furious agreement on this particular point, and I think it's the crux of the argument being made here for higher level languages. - Josh From rob at bitscience.ca Thu Dec 4 00:11:36 2014 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 22:11:36 -0800 Subject: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: <547FB5D6.8070109@gmail.com> References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> <547FB5D6.8070109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C7CCFBC-FA0D-4ECB-861C-3100D9EC6C6F@bitscience.ca> I?ve placed high resolution scans of both sides of my Infotek memory board at http://seefigure1.com/projects/9830/infotek/13236RevB.pdf Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Cheers, Rob From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:04:47 2014 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 12:04:47 -0800 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: > From: Al Kossow > People traded safety for speed, and thanks to the net and cowboy > programming, that has turned out to be a bad decision. Pshaw. C is only as unsafe as you make it. It's not the language that has caused, for example, Internet security issues - it's programmers who refuse to learn well-known lessons like "always, always, *always* bounds-check network-facing buffers *no matter what*" that give us things like Heartbleed and any number of other overrun/underrun/etc. vulnerabilities. Blaming the language for the badness of bad programmers is like blaming the chainsaw for the actions of some nitwit who decapitated himself playing with one. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:30:42 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:30:42 -0700 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 1:04 PM, John Ames wrote: >> From: Al Kossow >> People traded safety for speed, and thanks to the net and cowboy >> programming, that has turned out to be a bad decision. > Pshaw. C is only as unsafe as you make it. It's not the language that > has caused, for example, Internet security issues - it's programmers > who refuse to learn well-known lessons like "always, always, *always* > bounds-check network-facing buffers *no matter what*" that give us > things like Heartbleed and any number of other overrun/underrun/etc. > vulnerabilities. In other words, in C the programmer has to take positive action to achieve bounds checking, which in some other languages can be done with no special effort by the programmer. That doesn't sound to me like "C is only as unsafe as you make it". Rather, it sounds like "C is only as safe as you make it". Your argument is that a sufficiently good programmer will always write proper checks, etc. Reality doesn't bear that out. > Blaming the language for the badness of bad programmers is like > blaming the chainsaw for the actions of some nitwit who decapitated > himself playing with one. C is a chainsaw that is not supplied with any of the safety features of a normal chainsaw. It is a chainsaw that would be unlawful to sell in the US. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 3 15:32:27 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:32:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, John Ames wrote: >> From: Al Kossow >> People traded safety for speed, and thanks to the net and cowboy >> programming, that has turned out to be a bad decision. > Pshaw. C is only as unsafe as you make it. It's not the language that > has caused, for example, Internet security issues - it's programmers > who refuse to learn well-known lessons like "always, always, *always* > bounds-check network-facing buffers *no matter what*" that give us > things like Heartbleed and any number of other overrun/underrun/etc. > vulnerabilities. > > Blaming the language for the badness of bad programmers is like > blaming the chainsaw for the actions of some nitwit who decapitated > himself playing with one. This is why we've got snow blowers with the label "DO NOT USE ON ROOF" on them. :) I look at it this way - use the tool most appropriate for the task and tell the language snobs to See Figure #1. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 4 01:25:48 2014 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:25:48 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> (pontus@update.uu.se's message of "Wed\, 03 Dec 2014 21\:49\:13 +0100") References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Pontus writes: > Perhaps you could elaborate on the compatibility between the TOAD > versions and other PDP-10 processors. Also what operating systems do > they run, both previous and current versions? I'll contribute the technical information I have. Happy to take corrections or additions! The TOAD-1 was XKL's first PDP-10 clone, created around 1994. The CPU is called XKL-1, and is a model B with an extended virtual (30 bits) and physical address (33 bits) space compared to the KL10 model B. It's clocked at 33 MHz, and has 128K of cache and 8K TLB entries. The microcode control store has 8K 128-bit words. Similar information for more 10s here: http://pdp10.nocrew.org/cpu/processors.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 4 01:30:48 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 23:30:48 -0800 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54800DA8.30109@sydex.com> On 12/03/2014 06:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > This argument is so old, and so tiring. > > Can't we just bury it? > > Yes, some bugs will be caught by stronger types and more type checking. > The same stronger type system will cause people to swear and be upset > and try to work around it from time to time. And yet, we have APL, which doesn't give a fig about type. If Ada is a fascist, APL is a hippie. Yet, somehow, useful work gets done with it. I think the type thing is overblown. However, the ability to create abstract types can be very useful, particularly if relations and operations on mixed-type expressions can be exhaustively defined. Of course, used incorrectly, it's just another set of bugs. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 02:41:48 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 01:41:48 -0700 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <54800DA8.30109@sydex.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <54800DA8.30109@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And yet, we have APL, which doesn't give a fig about type. If Ada is a > fascist, APL is a hippie. Yet, somehow, useful work gets done with it. APL cares about type, but it's dynamically typed (like e.g. Python). If you try to add a character to a number, or index off the end of an array dimension, it catches a runtime error. Unlike C, where indexing off the end of an array is detected neither at compile time nor at runtime, gives unpredictable results, and can therefore lead to privilege escalation, information disclosure, and remote code execution exploits. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 4 02:47:27 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 08:47:27 +0000 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <54800DA8.30109@sydex.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <54800DA8.30109@sydex.com> Message-ID: I love APL BTW. I just don't have the time it deserves :D There used to be a distinction between applications level programming and systems level programming. I've coded hundreds of thousands of lines in C and my personal opinion on it is that you spend unnecessary brain power on security issues. I didn't like the flat namespace and lack of modular abstraction above function. There may be solutions to both these issues in modern C, but I've not seen much evidence. I didn't take to C++ as I felt it was both a systems and applications level programming language and didn't stand easy in either camp. The key difference between applications level programming, such as when writing a word processor, is to use a programming language that is more productive. You don't need low-level access routinely. If required, you interface with targeted C or assembler level modules with a single, defined purpose. What you need is a language this is rich and expressive with a broad coverage of libraries you can leverage to make the task easier. At the same time you should be protected from shooting yourself in the foot. Maybe the *real* answer to the question is that the smart programmer would pick two languages to get the job done... systems level routines in C or assember, high-level routines in a more domain-specific language. I'm thinking here of VAXTPU for example. VMS, with the common-calling standard, makes this a trivially viable option. Personally I can't say what language I would use for applications level programming without more investigation. I understand the benefits of knowing a language. It would be easier for me to write in C because I don't have the learning curve. For the purposes of discussions it would better to have the same view of the programming doing the task as a reader of a scientific paper. Highly intelligent but with no domain specific knowledge. Has anyone considered whether it would be possible to port lua to the PDP? It has a compact run time system. There is a microprocessor port available: http://www.eluaproject.net/ Mark. On 4 December 2014 at 07:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/03/2014 06:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> This argument is so old, and so tiring. >> >> Can't we just bury it? >> >> Yes, some bugs will be caught by stronger types and more type checking. >> The same stronger type system will cause people to swear and be upset >> and try to work around it from time to time. >> > > And yet, we have APL, which doesn't give a fig about type. If Ada is a > fascist, APL is a hippie. Yet, somehow, useful work gets done with it. > > I think the type thing is overblown. However, the ability to create > abstract types can be very useful, particularly if relations and operations > on mixed-type expressions can be exhaustively defined. > > Of course, used incorrectly, it's just another set of bugs. > > --Chuck > > > From abs at absd.org Thu Dec 4 03:25:03 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 09:25:03 +0000 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <54800DA8.30109@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4 Dec 2014 08:47, "Mark Wickens" wrote: > > Maybe the *real* answer to the question is that the smart programmer would > pick two languages to get the job done... systems level routines in C or > assember, high-level routines in a more domain-specific language. I'm > thinking here of VAXTPU for example. VMS, with the common-calling standard, > makes this a trivially viable option. Personally I can't say what language > I would use for applications level programming without more investigation. > I understand the benefits of knowing a language. It would be easier for me > to write in C because I don't have the learning curve. For the purposes of > discussions it would better to have the same view of the programming doing > the task as a reader of a scientific paper. Highly intelligent but with no > domain specific knowledge. > > Has anyone considered whether it would be possible to port lua to the PDP? > It has a compact run time system. There is a microprocessor port available: > http://www.eluaproject.net/ As an aside on embedded lua into an OS to provide a safer programming environment for certain tasks including in kernel, I think that has been done with a couple of Linux distribution and NetBSD will ship with it as standard. I think this is akin to how kde4 switched to python for a whole set of scripting functionality in the toolkits and widgets. For the specific tasks performance was effectively unchanged from the previous C++ code, and the maintainability and (I think) footprint went down - quite a lot of complex c++ code went away. Over time the boundary between the higher and lower level languages should be pushed down, keeping C in that particular subset of tasks where its characteristics give it a worthwhile edge (I really like C, but I would be among the first to admit that for many tasks making C faster than a more suited high level language would effectively require writing massively more code, in effect implementing significant chunks of that other language's data handling) I'm not suggesting that lua or python are really the ideal language for large systems, but I think it's a step in the right direction David From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Dec 4 04:54:34 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:54:34 +0100 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FDD92.8040409@gmail.com> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FDD92.8040409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54803D6A.7080404@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-04 05:05, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/3/2014 6:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> 40 years ago would never dream of doing since they would be thinking >> of how this translates into machine code much more. >> >> So in the end, with people getting less proper education, a stricter >> language is our only hope. But for people who are good at >> programming, the obstacles of stricter languages becomes annoying and >> reduces productivity, for much less gain. >> >> > > I've not found this to be true in my experience -- what "obstacles" are > you speaking of? I have a hard time giving specific examples out of thin air. But I certainly have been in situations where I have been writing code just to get around the compiler to just do what I want, which I knew conceptually would be very simple, but the language don't give me an easy way to do it. >> In the end, no one size fits all. > > Agreed, but not for the reason you use above; if I'm reading your > statement right your sizes are: "C: for people who are good at > programming" and "stricter languages: for people who need help." No one > size fits all in that some languages are suitable for certain tasks, and > some are more suitable for others. The discussion here is mainly that C > is applied in many areas where it is not the best choice. No. You read too much into it. In my opinion, there is no one language that is the universal solution, for any one person. It depends on the situation. Sometimes, C is a good tool for the job, if you are good at it. Sometimes it is not, even if you are good at it. But since I added "if you are good at it", it also implies that the same problem might call for different tools also based on your skills. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Dec 4 05:03:42 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:03:42 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-04 08:25, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Pontus writes: >> Perhaps you could elaborate on the compatibility between the TOAD >> versions and other PDP-10 processors. Also what operating systems do >> they run, both previous and current versions? > > I'll contribute the technical information I have. Happy to take > corrections or additions! > > The TOAD-1 was XKL's first PDP-10 clone, created around 1994. > > The CPU is called XKL-1, and is a model B with an extended virtual (30 > bits) and physical address (33 bits) space compared to the KL10 model > B. It's clocked at 33 MHz, and has 128K of cache and 8K TLB entries. > The microcode control store has 8K 128-bit words. > > Similar information for more 10s here: > http://pdp10.nocrew.org/cpu/processors.html As far as I can recall, the TOAD-1 is not compatible with the KL10B. I don't remember what the differences were, but I understood that TOPS-20 had to be modified in an incompatible way to run on it. Which was unfortunate, in that SC also made extensions, but they were more in line with how the KL10B works. So we got two different branches when the architecture was expanded from the KL10B. Unfortunately I don't remember if it was the paging system or the I/O system where they diverged. Someone who knows more details who can correct me on this? Johnny From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 4 05:21:14 2014 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:21:14 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> (Johnny Billquist's message of "Thu\, 04 Dec 2014 12\:03\:42 +0100") References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <85zjb31x05.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Johnny Billquist writes: > As far as I can recall, the TOAD-1 is not compatible with the > KL10B. I don't remember what the differences were, but I understood > that TOPS-20 had to be modified in an incompatible way to run on it. Right, it's not entirely compatible in executive mode. But it is in user mode (well, probably apart from some minor details). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 4 09:06:54 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:06:54 -0700 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/3/2014 1:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > C is a chainsaw that is not supplied with any of the safety features of > a normal chainsaw. It is a chainsaw that would be unlawful to > sell in the US. > More like the old chainsaw joke. man: this chain saw don't cut trees. sales man: BRUMMMMMMMMM - did you read the manual? From scaron at umich.edu Thu Dec 4 09:30:27 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 10:30:27 -0500 Subject: Looking for: Corvus Concept parts In-Reply-To: <547FE9DE.2050901@gmail.com> References: <547FE9DE.2050901@gmail.com> Message-ID: Man, I have been interested in the Corvus Concept for many years, ever since I read a Creative Computing article on it when I was a youngster (not sure it's in the ~30% of this magazine issue I still have, LOL). I don't think I've ever seen anyone exhibiting a complete unit... I'll be interested to see responses; this is definitely a machine that should have a little more historical presence on the Web! Neat little system. Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 11:58 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Another one that's been on the back-burner for a long time. I have the > main CPU unit, complete, but no monitor, keyboard or storage devices. > Anyone out there have any of these lying around? Alternately, anyone > looking for the main CPU unit to complete their system? > > Drop me a line... > - Josh > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 4 10:20:54 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:20:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547FD40F.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FD40F.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201412041620.LAA17906@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> If you use a language in which buffer overruns can't occur, and will >> either trigger exception handling or abort the program, [...] >> So if simply by programming in a different language you can >> substantially reduce the severity of an entire class of bugs, why >> wouldn't you do it? That's a question with multiple passably obvious answers, most of which amount to "use of that language comes with other, unacceptable, costs". Perhaps those costs are performance costs (such languages are usually much heavier-weight); perhaps they're programmer time costs (learning a new language or working around its deficiencies); perhaps they're system redesign costs (maybe the target system has no implementation of the language in question); perhaps they're licensing costs (for the implementation or perhaps even the language); perhaps lots of things. There are a few other answers; the first one that comes to mind is "for this task I don't care about that class of bugs". I've written at least a few programs for which I don't give a damn about possible buffer overflow exploits. > Anyone with enough experience will straight out admit that they can't > for example manage mutable state with sufficient reliability, [...] Sufficient reliability for what? I've written lots of programs that manage mutable state with sufficient reliability for the programs' design and use goals. (Perhaps I just don't have enough experience. But, as someone with over 35 years of programming experience, at least 30 years of which involved being paid for programming or other work with a substantial programming component, I find the bar ridiculously high if so.) >> Programming is *hard*, and debugging is even *harder*. If you can >> use a tool that doesn't help much, or a different tool that helps >> more, why would you want to stick with the less helpful tool? See above - usually, the "more helpful" tool carries other costs. > But here we are. Having to defend the idea that "simple mechanical > checks of program properties"* are a bad idea [...] I don't defend that idea. I do defend the idea that more compile-time checking is not always good, that it has to be balanced against the costs it brings. That's one reason most of my code these days is in C (well, actually, a slight supserset of C) rather than strict bondage-and-discipline languages like Ada or Haskell. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 4 10:35:55 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:35:55 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Corvus Concept parts In-Reply-To: References: <547FE9DE.2050901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54808D6B.3010904@bitsavers.org> On 12/4/14 7:30 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Man, I have been interested in the Corvus Concept for many years, ever > since I read a Creative Computing article on it when I was a youngster (not > sure it's in the ~30% of this magazine issue I still have, LOL). I don't > think I've ever seen anyone exhibiting a complete unit... I'll be > interested to see responses; this is definitely a machine that should have > a little more historical presence on the Web! Neat little system. > Some work has been done on it recently in MESS, so you can see it running in simulation. I've had an interest in them for thirty years, collected a bunch of them in the 80's up through the versions that could run Unix, gave them away, and have spent the past decade building up a small collection of them again. They almost got it right. 68000, bitmapped display, but missed the importance in the marketplace of a GUI. It never really evolved past it being a slightly extended UCSD Pascal environment, though implemented with a compiled Pascal from Silicon Valley Software. They did have built-in networking with Omninet and could run diskless, though. Local peripherals were built on Apple II expansion cards (w/o DMA capability). There was a 5" and 8" floppy disk card, and a flat cable interfaces for Corvus hard disks and Mirror backup tapes. There was driver support for the networked print servers. While the MESS work was going on a month or two ago, I had thought a bit about what it would take to write a Corvus OS driver for an Apple II CF card board. Years ago, I had gotten a couple of low speed Apple II SCSI cards thinking I would try getting those to work on a Concept. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Dec 4 10:49:53 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 10:49:53 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Twinax 5250 Style Terminal In-Reply-To: <20141203204545.GA19243@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141203204545.GA19243@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20141204164953.GA21963@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 02:45:45PM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > I should have an IBM 9406-270 arriving today or tomorrow. I think I've > gathered everything I need to attempt an OS install except a console. I've made arrangements to borrow a terminal, and twinax multi-port connector block, from work to get me started. Actually it's looking like I might be able to save the old 9406-270 at work from the scrappers. If so the terminals will probably come with it. It's been shut down for a while. With our current box we switched from a real console to a 5250 emulator console so the two twinax terminals we have haven't been used for a while either. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From rhirst at xkl.com Thu Dec 4 10:59:44 2014 From: rhirst at xkl.com (Roy Hirst) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:59:44 -0800 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> Although here at XKL we don't still use TOAD-1s in the business, we do have a few engineers here in R&D that are bit-level familiar with the beast, even tho' the last living instance I believe is now at the Museum. I'd need to stay well clear of anything XKL-proprietary, but I would be happy to interview them and to put together a technical briefing on stuff we can talk about. Would take me a week. Let me know if that would help, and if there's any doc gaps that I might help fill. I'm new to this forum, I can't tell what level of reverse engineering folk are aiming at, are folk pursuing emulators, simulators, what? Does the Museum provide some kind of a reverse-engineered BOM? I don't know where you would actually buy a TOAD-1 (almost certainly not from us, I think, but I will check) and our last one I suspect is the one proud in baby blue on the Museum's video. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/4/2014 3:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-04 08:25, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> Pontus writes: >>> Perhaps you could elaborate on the compatibility between the TOAD >>> versions and other PDP-10 processors. Also what operating systems do >>> they run, both previous and current versions? >> >> I'll contribute the technical information I have. Happy to take >> corrections or additions! >> >> The TOAD-1 was XKL's first PDP-10 clone, created around 1994. >> >> The CPU is called XKL-1, and is a model B with an extended virtual (30 >> bits) and physical address (33 bits) space compared to the KL10 model >> B. It's clocked at 33 MHz, and has 128K of cache and 8K TLB entries. >> The microcode control store has 8K 128-bit words. >> >> Similar information for more 10s here: >> http://pdp10.nocrew.org/cpu/processors.html > > As far as I can recall, the TOAD-1 is not compatible with the KL10B. I > don't remember what the differences were, but I understood that > TOPS-20 had to be modified in an incompatible way to run on it. Which > was unfortunate, in that SC also made extensions, but they were more > in line with how the KL10B works. So we got two different branches > when the architecture was expanded from the KL10B. Unfortunately I > don't remember if it was the paging system or the I/O system where > they diverged. > > Someone who knows more details who can correct me on this? > > Johnny The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. From isking at uw.edu Thu Dec 4 11:23:50 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 09:23:50 -0800 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I'm not sure why some people insist on bashing C because it can be misused/abused. C is a tool for when you need to touch the metal. It's just not what anyone should use to write applications. You don't do finish carpentry with a chainsaw, and you don't cut down trees with a keyhole saw. Yet there are people who craft wood sculptures with a chainsaw... and you can write applications in C. But chainsaws and C are more unforgiving of ignorance than hand saws and Python. And Go looks like nothing more than Emerald rebaked. See, http://www.emeraldprogramminglanguage.org/. -- Ian On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 7:06 AM, ben wrote: > On 12/3/2014 1:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > C is a chainsaw that is not supplied with any of the safety features of >> a normal chainsaw. It is a chainsaw that would be unlawful to >> sell in the US. >> >> More like the old chainsaw joke. > man: this chain saw don't cut trees. > sales man: BRUMMMMMMMMM - did you read the manual? > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 11:52:42 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 09:52:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> On 12/3/2014 1:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > C is a chainsaw that is not supplied with any of the safety features of > a normal chainsaw. It is a chainsaw that would be unlawful to > sell in the US. It is rare that I disagree with Eric. Yes, C is a chainsaw. I can accept that metaphor. Yes, many people use it inappropriately, Yes, many of those people shouldn't be using it at all. Yes, chainsaws are dangerous. So are motorcycles. Some people ride motorcycles inappropriately, and indeed, some shouldn't even consider one. Some ride motorcycles for the wrong reasons, such as inability to afford a car. But consider the Joan Claybrook attempt at guvmint intervention, with her NHTSA attempts to design a "safer motorcycle". C lets you put in safeguards where you consider them necessary, and leave them out when they are unnecessary and an inordinate hindrance. Unfortunately, many programmers are not responsible in making that decision. Is C more dangerous than Assembly? C was the first "high level" language that I used that was easy to shove out of the way when it was desirable to get access to the hardware. I'm not willing to give that up. A re-write of XenoCopy was the first program that I wrote in C. It shows. I wish that I were to have the time and energy to go back and rewrite it properly, using what I have learned since then. I wish that I were to have been more successful in teaching my students to program carefully and safely. Bounds checking. But, even such simple basics as being more careful and remembering that integer division truncates, that floating points are approximations and an equality comparison needs to be replaced by checking whether it is "close enough", etc. If I were to write XenoCopy again, I would still do it in C. The Sales Tax Genie TSR would still be in assembly. BUT, the next iterations would be less buggy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Dec 4 12:48:08 2014 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 18:48:08 +0000 Subject: RUNOFF was Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D5DA6@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> DEC sold WPS-8 which ran on PDP-8's, which was kinda WYSIWYG (rulers etc), but I don't know of anything quite up the WYSIWYG alley for the -11's. Most common on an -11 was a basic text editor plus DECUS runoff (which most often just formatted for a line or dot matrix printer). DECUS runoff for the PDP-11 (at least in late 70's was under the DECUS text processing SIG) is obviously a reimplementation of most common features of PDP-10-ish DSR . I don't know if DEC ever officially had DSR for the PDP-11. DSR = "Digital Standard Runoff". DECUS runoff has a lot in common with DSR and the other "classic" runoffs but I've never done an actual entymology to see what is unique and what is common between them for a lineage. I myself have re-implemented runoff in Perl a couple of times. It is completely trivial in Perl. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 4 12:59:33 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:59:33 -0800 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5480AF15.3050408@sydex.com> On 12/04/2014 09:52 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is C more dangerous than Assembly? No, it isn't--it does, however, lack a good macro facility. Sadly, good macro facilities for assemblers have been going out of style. Witness the assemblers for modern MCUs. It's pretty much assumed that these will be programmed in C--that's what the tool suite is written in and it's expected that this is what people will use. An assembler is done because it's customary. Viewed as a low-level implementation language a step above assembly, run-time error checking is ridiculous. What do you do in an OS kernel when an exception is thrown because of a coding error? You die--maybe with some diagnostic information. Very often, there's no way forward. What a OS kernel programmer worries about is unexpected behavior of physical devices. What do you do if a device dies in the middle of an operation? What if a device simply misbehaves? Easy--you detect it and die. BSODs, DEADBEEF errors, you name it. You try to be as careful as you can be, coding correctly. If you can get a buffer overrun, you should be checking for it. If you try to page out the resident pager code, you did something wrong and no runtime error checking is going to fix that. C is a chainsaw, as others have said. So is assembly. Trying to change it into a screwdriver is a hopeless task. Just the idea of unrestricted pointers makes good run-time diagnosis hopeless and is the bane of automatic compile-time optimization. I am in favor of very good compile-time diagnostics, no matter the language, however. Getting 150 error messages because you forgot to close a brace somewhere is just stupid. --Chuck From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 4 13:06:58 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 19:06:58 +0000 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 10:42:02AM -0700, ben wrote: [...] > PL/1 anyone? Its Wikipedia page puts me in mind of some of the more ill-advised dark corners of Perl combined with the flexibility of Pascal. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 4 13:12:34 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:12:34 -0800 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <5480AF15.3050408@sydex.com> References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> <5480AF15.3050408@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/04/2014 09:52 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Is C more dangerous than Assembly? > > No, it isn't--it does, however, lack a good macro facility. Sadly, good macro facilities for assemblers have been going out of style. Witness the assemblers for modern MCUs. It's pretty much assumed that these will be programmed in C--that's what the tool suite is written in and it's expected that this is what people will use. An assembler is done because it's customary. > > Viewed as a low-level implementation language a step above assembly, run-time error checking is ridiculous. What do you do in an OS kernel when an exception is thrown because of a coding error? You die--maybe with some diagnostic information. Very often, there's no way forward. > > What a OS kernel programmer worries about is unexpected behavior of physical devices. What do you do if a device dies in the middle of an operation? What if a device simply misbehaves? Easy--you detect it and die. > > BSODs, DEADBEEF errors, you name it. > > You try to be as careful as you can be, coding correctly. If you can get a buffer overrun, you should be checking for it. If you try to page out the resident pager code, you did something wrong and no runtime error checking is going to fix that. > > C is a chainsaw, as others have said. So is assembly. Trying to change it into a screwdriver is a hopeless task. Just the idea of unrestricted pointers makes good run-time diagnosis hopeless and is the bane of automatic compile-time optimization. > > I am in favor of very good compile-time diagnostics, no matter the language, however. Getting 150 error messages because you forgot to close a brace somewhere is just stupid. To add to this. In a couple of places I was "forced" to use static analysis tools to "check" my code. This was usually required before a check-in. The problem with the analysis tools is that: (a) they didn't understand the kernel environment that I was working in (see Chuck's earlier comment) (b) they didn't understand (or weren't sophisticated enough) to understand that certain conditions were *can't* happen conditions but the tool would throw errors which in order to remove (the errors) code needed to be added that induced code-bloat and performance reductions. In the end, enough of us "kernel hacks" got management to relent and not require the tool to be run on kernel code. We just ran with all error checks enabled in the standard compiler. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 4 13:12:41 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:12:41 -0800 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> Message-ID: <5480B229.1020204@bitsavers.org> On 12/4/14 8:59 AM, Roy Hirst wrote: > Although here at XKL we don't still use TOAD-1s in the business, we do have a few engineers here in R&D that are bit-level familiar with the beast, even tho' the last living instance I believe is now > at the Museum. > Museums. The Computer History Museum has one as well. Wayne and Ralph are still there, I assume? From jws at jwsss.com Thu Dec 4 13:24:13 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:24:13 -0800 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5480B4DD.3020901@jwsss.com> On 12/4/2014 11:06 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 10:42:02AM -0700, ben wrote: > [...] >> PL/1 anyone? > Its Wikipedia page puts me in mind of some of the more ill-advised dark corners > of Perl combined with the flexibility of Pascal. > > Multics hopefully will be stable enough to use. The pl1 and runtime on multics is very usable. From what I've seen, Stratus copied most of it for their original OS, before slapping a c layer on top of it. The file system, runtime libraries, and pl1 all looked similar enough that the guys I know there didn't retrain many fingers to program on stratus vs. multics. what I saw looked very similar. Jim From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 4 13:27:35 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 19:27:35 +0000 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D17397@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Peter Corlett Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:07 AM > On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 10:42:02AM -0700, ben wrote: > [...] >> PL/1 anyone? > Its Wikipedia page puts me in mind of some of the more ill-advised > dark corners of Perl combined with the flexibility of Pascal. Pl/I (nee PL/1, but the spelling changed with the Optimizing and Checkout compilers) is (was?) immensely flexible. I wrote a utility in it for the UChicago Computation Center which took as its input an SVS JCL deck (for the Amdahl V7) and output an equivalent MVS deck (for the 3031 which was to replace the Amdahl system). And Pascal was flexible enough that I was able to write a disassembler/ dump program for PDP-10 binaries whose output was acceptable input to Macro-20 (or Macro-10, but I wasn't working on Tops-10 at the time). I did that work before the JCL utility. I don't pretend to have explored all the dark corners of Perl, but I first learned it in order to add features to Bugzilla. Later, I used it for exploratory forensic programming when decoding DECtapes images which had intentionally been obscured. One of these days I should probably learn C and Python. Or not. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 4 14:03:15 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 20:03:15 +0000 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Mark Wickens Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 12:47 AM > Has anyone considered whether it would be possible to port lua to the > PDP? You know, there never was (or only for a very short time) such a thing as "the PDP". DEC produced systems with 5 different architectures (or 4.5, if you lump the two 18-bit architectures together; I usually do) under the rubric "PDP-": The PDP-1, the PDP-4/7/9/15, the PDP-5/8 family, the PDP-6/10 family, and the PDP-11 family. I would argue that only the original PDP-1 could rightly be called "the PDP", but even then, DEC had designed the 24-bit PDP-2 and the 36-bit PDP-3 which they did not build themselves, for a total of 7 architectures designated "PDP". Back when I was doing sales support for XKL, a lovely lady who did consulting in the oil industry advised me that we should be selling the Toad-1 in that market "because there are PDPs *everywhere* in the fields!" (Steps off soap box, walks away from Hyde Park.) (Hi, Mark! ;-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 4 14:38:13 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 20:38:13 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <85zjb31x05.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <85zjb31x05.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1743B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Lars Brinkhoff Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:21 AM > Johnny Billquist writes: >> As far as I can recall, the TOAD-1 is not compatible with the >> KL10B. I don't remember what the differences were, but I understood >> that TOPS-20 had to be modified in an incompatible way to run on it. > Right, it's not entirely compatible in executive mode. But it is in > user mode (well, probably apart from some minor details). The biggest detail in user mode is that the entire 30-bit address space is available to user programs, where the Model B KL-10s provided a 22-bit physical address and a 23-bit virtual (in TOPS-20 from v4 and in Tops-10 v7.04). The user model is easily seen in TOPS-20 v7+ when invoking DDT: There is a switch on the DDT command /USE-SECTION, the value of which is limited on the KL to section 37 (octal), but can be up to 7776 on the Toad-1. (Section 7777 is a magic value in the Toad architecture.) The Toad-1 Architecture Reference Manual is available via anonymous FTP in PDF, Postscript, and TeX DVI formats at Toad-1.LivingComputerMuseum.org, in the directory . Remember to specify "tenex" or "type l 8" for the PDF or DVI files. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Dec 4 14:48:13 2014 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 21:48:13 +0100 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> Message-ID: <5480C88D.5050208@update.uu.se> On 12/04/2014 05:59 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: > Although here at XKL we don't still use TOAD-1s in the business, we do > have a few engineers here in R&D that are bit-level familiar with the > beast, even tho' the last living instance I believe is now at the Museum. Besides the CHM one, Peter L?thberg also has one. > I'd need to stay well clear of anything XKL-proprietary, but I would > be happy to interview them and to put together a technical briefing on > stuff we can talk about. Would take me a week. Let me know if that > would help, and if there's any doc gaps that I might help fill. I'm > new to this forum, I can't tell what level of reverse engineering folk > are aiming at, are folk pursuing emulators, simulators, what? Does the > Museum provide some kind of a reverse-engineered BOM? I don't think there is any serious project going on, just general curiosity. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. > I don't know where you would actually buy a TOAD-1 (almost certainly > not from us, I think, but I will check) and our last one I suspect is > the one proud in baby blue on the Museum's video. I'm well aware of the TOAD-1 rarity, but what about the TOAD-2. Regards, Pontus. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 4 14:52:47 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 20:52:47 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1746A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Roy Hirst Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 9:00 AM > I don't know where you would actually buy a TOAD-1 (almost certainly not > from us, I think, but I will check) and our last one I suspect is the > one proud in baby blue on the Museum's video. Hi, Roy, The colors in the video must be off. It's definitely not baby blue, more like a true sapphire. Only four Toad-1 systems left XKL while we still offered them for sale: Two were purchased by BT/Tymnet (one in private hands, one discarded by people who did not know what it was), one went to Digital (now at CHM), and one was purchased by Paul Allen for his Wired World project (now at LCM). One more later went to a friend of the family known for collecting PDP-10s. Purchasing one would probably be difficult. :-) Rich (XKL sales support/customer support/TOPS-20 developer/technical writer/ systems administrator, 1993-2003) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From phil at ultimate.com Thu Dec 4 14:54:00 2014 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 15:54:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> Message-ID: <201412042054.sB4Ks01k067920@ultimate.com> Roy Hirst > Although here at XKL we don't still use TOAD-1s in the business, we do > have a few engineers here in R&D that are bit-level familiar with the > beast, even tho' the last living instance I believe is now at the Museum. > I'd need to stay well clear of anything XKL-proprietary, but I would be > happy to interview them and to put together a technical briefing on > stuff we can talk about. Would take me a week. Personally, I'd be more interested in hearing more about the "TOAD-2" controllers used in current XKL equipment, starting with: Is the TOAD-2 a PDP-10 clone, as the TOAD-1 is? Is it running TOPS-20 (or some subset)? If not, is it a self-hosting system (is development for the platform done on a TOAD-2) or is it an embedded processor, with binaries being cross compiled on some other platform? Thanks! Phil (who once worked on DEC FORTRAN-10/20) From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 4 15:03:14 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 21:03:14 +0000 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Fair point Rich - and greetings to you too! I'm guessing here I'm talking about a PDP-11 of some description, but I still have yet to step my toes in that particular pond. I get the feeling I'll sink fast! Mark. On 4 December 2014 at 20:03, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Mark Wickens > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 12:47 AM > > > Has anyone considered whether it would be possible to port lua to the > > PDP? > > You know, there never was (or only for a very short time) such a thing > as "the PDP". DEC produced systems with 5 different architectures (or > 4.5, if you lump the two 18-bit architectures together; I usually do) > under the rubric "PDP-": The PDP-1, the PDP-4/7/9/15, > the PDP-5/8 family, the PDP-6/10 family, and the PDP-11 family. I would > argue that only the original PDP-1 could rightly be called "the PDP", > but even then, DEC had designed the 24-bit PDP-2 and the 36-bit PDP-3 > which they did not build themselves, for a total of 7 architectures > designated "PDP". > > Back when I was doing sales support for XKL, a lovely lady who did > consulting in the oil industry advised me that we should be selling the > Toad-1 in that market "because there are PDPs *everywhere* in the fields!" > > (Steps off soap box, walks away from Hyde Park.) > > (Hi, Mark! ;-) > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Thu Dec 4 15:09:14 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 14:09:14 -0700 Subject: A classic Trivia Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It has been more than a couple of days and it is long past time to answer the question which was what does *.+1%2^2 do in the PDP-8 PAL assembler. In the PAL assembler the * is not for multiplication. It sets the origin address which is where the next instruction or assembled piece of data will be stored in memory. The rest of the line is an equation where the operators are performed from left to right. The . is the current address which has 1 added to it. The % is the division operator so %2 then divides the current address plus 1 by 2. Finally the ^ is the multiplication operator so that the whole mess before it is multiplied by 2. The result is that the origin address is set to the next even address in memory. I used this to align data to an even address boundary. Rick Murphy was the first offline respondent with the correct answer so he gets the gold star. Doug Ingraham On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > In days of old when knights were bold and computers barely invented... > > > In the PDP-8 PAL assembler what is the purpose of the following character > sequence accomplish? > > *.+1%2^2 > > If you know the answer good for you! You get a gold star. Please don't > blurt out the answer. Let people think about it a bit. I'll post the > answer in a couple of days. I came up with this sequence this morning for > use in an emulator I am working on. > > > Doug Ingraham > > From radiotest at juno.com Thu Dec 4 15:34:58 2014 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:34:58 -0500 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> At 1247 AM 12/4/2014, Mark Wickens wrote: >I would argue that only the original PDP-1 could rightly be called "the PDP" Speaking of that pioneering machine, does anyone know if there are any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT engineering prototype operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years ago, when it was housed adjacent to the TX-0 and the two were being used for speech synthesis experiments. From what I understand the operable machine on display at the CHM is a later C production version. Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 4 15:50:18 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 21:50:18 +0000 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> References: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 03:32:38PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . > >>> long long int A; > >>> int B; > >>> A = B << 32; [...] > So, should the compiler optimize that to > MOV X,0 > or > NOP > ? That basically depends on what "long long" and "int" means :) The C99 (draft) standard says of << and >> that "[t]he behavior is undefined if the right operand is negative, or greater than or equal to the length in bits of the promoted left operand", with the C++ standard using much the same words but in a different order. There are all sorts of edge cases and caveats in the standard, but I've not omitted anything relevant. So on systems where sizeof(int) <= sizeof(int32_t) -- which is everything that matters -- B << 32 is undefined and the compiler is permitted to do whatever it damn well pleases, including invoking the infamous "nasal demons". What *actually* happens depends on the compiler. Modern aggressive compilers will go as far as to prove which code paths contain undefined behaviour and thus treat so-affected variables and expressions as "poisoned". B would be treated as unused here and its assignment would be optimised-away if not used elsewhere. A would be treated as uninitialised, and thus potentially poison anything that uses it, cascading the undefined behaviour further, allowing whole swathes of code to be eliminated. With some of the compiler smarts migrating into linkers, it may even take a crack at the halting problem and optimise the whole program away because the standard allows it to! (I am very much not a fan of C, but it helps to know one's enemies.) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Dec 4 15:59:21 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:59:21 -0500 Subject: Current Status In-Reply-To: References: <57DBE442-ED89-40B6-BA8A-6860DEC2646A@barossafarm.com> <4A134035.1010002@compsys.to> <4A14B637.3010309@compsys.to> <4A19FB28.8090902@compsys.to> <4A21F404.3040200@compsys.to> <4A233DBE.6020308@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5480D939.2070107@compsys.to> Does anyone know the status and current e-mail address for Daniel T. Burrows (of RSX-11 fame)? From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 4 16:21:50 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 14:21:50 -0800 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > On Dec 4, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 03:32:38PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> . . . >>>>> long long int A; >>>>> int B; >>>>> A = B << 32; > [...] >> So, should the compiler optimize that to >> MOV X,0 >> or >> NOP >> ? > > > So on systems where sizeof(int) <= sizeof(int32_t) -- which is everything that > matters Really? Where have you been? OS X the default has been to compile for 64-bits in which case sizeof(int) == sizeof(int64_t) since Leopard (10.5) in 2009. The kernel went default 64-bits in Snow Leopard (10.6) in 2010. OS X on x86 has always supported mixed 32/64 bit applications (as long as the CPU did) regardless of what the kernel was (a 32-bit kernel could run 64-bit applications). TTFN - Guy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 16:27:14 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 22:27:14 -0000 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <013601d01011$745c5140$5d14f3c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jarratt RMA [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 01 December 2014 21:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Random DEC Questions > > > > On 1 December 2014 at 06:16, tony duell wrote: > > Not sure what makes it an international model, although it does say > > 50-60Hz, and it does not have a captive power cord, so presumably it > > is an international one. I will have to take a look inside, but I > > really don't have any idea what I would need to do to convert it. > > Nothing specific to the VT3xx > > Normally SMPSUs that can be converted to run off 115V or 230V mains run the > chopper off about 350V DC. The mains input rectifier circuit is configured to be > a simple bridge rectifier for 230V and a voltage doubler for 115V. The > conversion is nothing more than a link from the neutral side of the mains to the > centre tap of a pair of smoothing capacitors in series (if you look at the circuit, > you end up with 2 diodes that are redundant, always reverse-biased, in the > voltage doubler circuit, but that is no problem). > > So look for a link on the PSU board in this area. If you are lucky it will either > have 2 positions labelled '115V' and '230V' (in the latter position it actually > does nothing) or will be marked 'fit for 115V' or something. > > -tony > > > Thanks for the suggestions from Glen and Tony. I am away from home most of > the week, but I will take a look when I get home again at the end of the week. > > Regards > > Rob I opened up the VT320 tonight. The PSU is set for 240V, which is good. However, I noticed some corrosion around the flyback transformer. I have posted a picture here: http://1drv.ms/1zqDhx5 This looks like corrosion of some kind of retaining clip perhaps, rather than anything functional. Am I right, or should I be concerned? Thanks Rob From ian at platinum.net Thu Dec 4 16:34:16 2014 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 14:34:16 -0800 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: <013601d01011$745c5140$5d14f3c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> <013601d01011$745c5140$5d14f3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <80AA9FF8-F8D7-4D5D-B4E7-EE974F32752B@platinum.net> > On Dec 4, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I opened up the VT320 tonight. The PSU is set for 240V, which is good. However, I noticed some corrosion around the flyback transformer. I have posted a picture here: http://1drv.ms/1zqDhx5 > > This looks like corrosion of some kind of retaining clip perhaps, rather than anything functional. Am I right, or should I be concerned? The brown between the ferrite core and the white coil housing is normal glue used in the flyback manufacture. However, the rust on the metal clip holding the ferrite core together is definitely unusual - I've never seen this before. Obviously a sign of moisture at some point in its history. Is there any other signs of moisture? The clip itself is purely mechanical (holding the two parts of the ferrite core together) and serves no electrical purpose. As long as it's still structurally sound, it's probably ok. Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 4 10:18:47 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:18:47 -0800 Subject: Scanning MACRO-11 Manual In-Reply-To: <547F8106.1070207@ntlworld.com> References: <20141203142123.E6D7218C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <547F8106.1070207@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54808967.2030201@bitsavers.org> On 12/3/14 1:30 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Well DEC saw fit to publish multiple versions, so I don't see why it would hurt to have multiple > versions online. I know I've scanned multiple versions of the same manual (I can remember > perhaps 3 TU58 user guides ...). > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/dos-batch/DEC-11-OMACA-A-D_DOS_MACRO-11_Assembler_Programmers_Manual_Jun72.pdf From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 12:16:27 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 13:16:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for: Corvus Concept parts In-Reply-To: References: <547FE9DE.2050901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2014, Sean Caron wrote: > Man, I have been interested in the Corvus Concept for many years, ever > since I read a Creative Computing article on it when I was a youngster (not > sure it's in the ~30% of this magazine issue I still have, LOL). I don't > think I've ever seen anyone exhibiting a complete unit... I'll be > interested to see responses; this is definitely a machine that should have > a little more historical presence on the Web! Neat little system. I've been an avid collector of all things Corvus for over 20 years. The crown jewel of my collection is a complete and functional Concept with display, keyboard and almost every peripheral board ever manufactured. About 15 years back I ran into a guy at the MIT Flea Market who had a basement full of Corvus equipment and picked up the entire lot for free. For lack of storage space, I gave away a Concept, keyboard an monitor in the early 2000s. At this point, I have no extras of anything. The monitor is an oddball unit made by Ball. It uses non-standard sync timing and I've never been able to find any technical information on it. Mine can be a bit flakey at times and I'm not sure what to do as an alternative. I've fed the output to a few different converters and multi-sync monitors, but no joy with anything. Steve -- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 4 15:16:04 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 22:16:04 +0100 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. Message-ID: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I went dumpster diving some time back. I saw an old "white box" 286 PeeCee with a MFM disk and a strange ISA card. I riped them out of the box and took them home. I intended to reuse the MFM disk in my MicroVAX 2000. Then I noticed that the ISA card carries a IMST414 Transputer chip. It looked to me like this PeeCee was the "head" of a bigger Transputer system. (That I rescued out of that dumpster some years back.) So I went back to that dumpster and pulled the other ISA cards (disk, video, IO). I suspect that this ST-125 MFM disk contains some DOS software to drive the ISA card with the Transputer. Plug all this stuff into some generic old PeeCee and there you go... The Transputer card is 8 Bit ISA full size. It has the T414, a bunch of 74TTL glue logic, 16 SIMM sockets, four populated, a button and a small, round 5-pin connector on the slot bracket. It is labeled "Monoputer 2 v1.1 (C)Microway,Inc. 1988". I am willing to ship this inside .eu for a reasonable "shipping and handling fee". (Or in exchange to some SGI O2 RAM.) I don't wane make money on this. I want this to go into good hands, ideally someone that rescues and preserves any software from that MFM disk. -- tsch??, Jochen From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 4 15:44:35 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 13:44:35 -0800 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> Message-ID: <20141204134435.5f990364@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:34:58 -0500 "Dale H. Cook" wrote: > At 1247 AM 12/4/2014, Mark Wickens wrote: > > >I would argue that only the original PDP-1 could rightly be called > >"the PDP" > > Speaking of that pioneering machine, does anyone know if there are > any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT engineering prototype > operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years ago, when it was > housed adjacent to the TX-0 and the two were being used for speech > synthesis experiments. From what I understand the operable machine on > display at the CHM is a later C production version. > > Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html There are no current plans to restore another PDP-1 at the CHM... Lyle Bickley PDP-1 Restoration Team, CHM -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From scaron at umich.edu Thu Dec 4 16:55:34 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 17:55:34 -0500 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1746A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1746A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: That's very interesting to know. I had always wondered how many were made and where they went. Can anyone disclose the original list price of the TOAD-1? Or is that off-limits? Just curious. Best, Sean On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Rich Alderson < RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > From: Roy Hirst > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 9:00 AM > > > I don't know where you would actually buy a TOAD-1 (almost certainly not > > from us, I think, but I will check) and our last one I suspect is the > > one proud in baby blue on the Museum's video. > > Hi, Roy, > > The colors in the video must be off. It's definitely not baby blue, more > like a true sapphire. > > Only four Toad-1 systems left XKL while we still offered them for sale: > Two were purchased by BT/Tymnet (one in private hands, one discarded by > people who did not know what it was), one went to Digital (now at CHM), > and one was purchased by Paul Allen for his Wired World project (now at > LCM). One more later went to a friend of the family known for collecting > PDP-10s. > > Purchasing one would probably be difficult. :-) > > Rich > > (XKL sales support/customer support/TOPS-20 developer/technical writer/ > systems administrator, 1993-2003) > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Dec 4 16:57:47 2014 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:57:47 -0600 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: <80AA9FF8-F8D7-4D5D-B4E7-EE974F32752B@platinum.net> References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> <013601d01011$745c5140$5d14f3c0$@ntlworld.com> <80AA9FF8-F8D7-4D5D-B4E7-EE974F32752B@platinum.net> Message-ID: <20141204225747.GQ22189@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (12/04/2014 at 02:34PM -0800), Ian McLaughlin wrote: > > > On Dec 4, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I opened up the VT320 tonight. The PSU is set for 240V, which is good. However, I noticed some corrosion around the flyback transformer. I have posted a picture here: http://1drv.ms/1zqDhx5 > > > > This looks like corrosion of some kind of retaining clip perhaps, rather than anything functional. Am I right, or should I be concerned? > > The brown between the ferrite core and the white coil housing is normal glue used in the flyback manufacture. > > However, the rust on the metal clip holding the ferrite core together is definitely unusual - I've never seen this before. Obviously a sign of moisture at some point in its history. Is there any other signs of moisture? The clip itself is purely mechanical (holding the two parts of the ferrite core together) and serves no electrical purpose. As long as it's still structurally sound, it's probably ok. I have actually seen a lot of this, particularly on VT220 I have restored. By the looks of yours, I'd say the clip is toast. It does hold the core together so if it comes apart and there's later vibration of significance, the core might come apart and then you don't have a flyback anymore. I would try to clean up the particles that remain as they are conductive and if they migrate into other parts of the circuit or if the remains of the clip come off and end up somewhere else in the circuit, you'll have a lot more to repair. I have repaired several flybacks with this problem by removing them from the board, removing the rusted clip and all the gunk and then threading a #12 or #14 insulated copper wire through the core and around the ferrite and then twisting it back on itself to cinch it up. You might also be able to accomplish similar without removing the flyback from the board if you can get your cinch wire underneath the bottom of the core, between it and the PCB and then wrap it over the top. I think the core splits right about where most of your clip has disappeared-- about half way up the side of the flyback in your photo. I haven't it done it this way myself but you might also be able to save it with some epoxy or even hot melt glue if you can encapsulate both halves of the ferrite that way. Good luck. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 16:58:47 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 15:58:47 -0700 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <201412041620.LAA17906@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FD40F.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <201412041620.LAA17906@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> If you use a language in which buffer overruns can't occur, and will >>> either trigger exception handling or abort the program, [...] > >>> So if simply by programming in a different language you can >>> substantially reduce the severity of an entire class of bugs, why >>> wouldn't you do it? > > That's a question with multiple passably obvious answers, most of which > amount to "use of that language comes with other, unacceptable, costs". > Perhaps those costs are performance costs (such languages are usually > much heavier-weight); perhaps they're programmer time costs (learning a > new language or working around its deficiencies); perhaps they're > system redesign costs (maybe the target system has no implementation of > the language in question); perhaps they're licensing costs (for the > implementation or perhaps even the language); perhaps lots of things. Or, most commonly in my opinion, the long-term costs of using a crappy programming language are simply not considered. From phil at ultimate.com Thu Dec 4 16:59:50 2014 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 17:59:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <20141204134435.5f990364@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <201412042259.sB4MxonY071198@ultimate.com> Lyle Bickley, PDP-1 Restoration Team, CHM wrote: >>Dale Cook wrote: >>Speaking of that pioneering machine, does anyone know if there are >>any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT engineering prototype >>operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years ago, when it >>was housed adjacent to the TX-0 and the two were being used for >>speech synthesis experiments. From what I understand the operable >>machine on display at the CHM is a later C production version. > > There are no current plans to restore another PDP-1 at the CHM... For the RLE PDP-1, restored to what condition would be another question... My understanding is that the machine evolved, with instruction changes, and multiple lights & switches "consoles". ISTR hearing that an MIT person was dismayed that all of that had been stripped away.... I saw the TX-0 when it was in the DEC Museum in Marlboro, when I worked in an adjoining building (MR1). I didn't understand it's significance back then. I understand it lost it's peripherals when MIT sold it (the purchaser only wanted the outboard hardware). I was glad to hear that it remained in Massachusetts (I was told it's in the Lincoln Labs library), but sad that it isn't on public display, nor in working order (it had been restored to working order once already). I guess I can hope someday for a CHM East. As of now, the best public collection(s) of DEC hardware in the area are in Rhode Island... Phil From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 4 17:01:01 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:01:01 +0000 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20141204230101.GC788333@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 08:09:42PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: [...] > You can give it up any time. There are dozens of far better languages that > have cropped up in the 40 years since C was invented for a particular > environment (that doesn't resemble anything much we do today). When it comes to what calls "freestanding" environments, options are *extremely* limited, with C being the lingua franca. C++ is a reasonable alternative as it can be used to file off some of the rougher edges if used diligently, but brings problems of its own. Rust has some excellent ideas and can likely move into this space, but it's not quite ready for prime time. These are all still essentially procedural stack languages with manual memory management though, as it's easy to reason about and provides cheap interop with existing legacy C code. But when we look at languages claimed to be "better" than C, they tend to all fall by the wayside when it comes to freestanding systems due to requiring some sort of operating system or other heavyweight execution environment, or don't have the necessary primitives to get down and dirty with I/O devices. A curious outlier is OCaml, a strongly-typed functional language that compiles down to machine code and has had its language runtime ported to the bare metal. It is used to devastating effect in MirageOS to create hardened single-purpose sandboxed services that essentially run as independent kernels under a virtualisation system. It's a trivial leap from that to running on bare metal, and is certainly one to watch. Are there any other (sane, supported) languages suitable for bare metal programming that I ought to be aware of? Right now, C++ seems least-worst. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 4 17:10:22 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 15:10:22 -0800 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204230101.GC788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <20141204230101.GC788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <77E51BF1-42AE-432B-93B9-02860D093BD2@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 4, 2014, at 3:01 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 08:09:42PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: > [...] >> You can give it up any time. There are dozens of far better languages that >> have cropped up in the 40 years since C was invented for a particular >> environment (that doesn't resemble anything much we do today). > > When it comes to what calls "freestanding" environments, options are > *extremely* limited, with C being the lingua franca. C++ is a reasonable > alternative as it can be used to file off some of the rougher edges if used > diligently, but brings problems of its own. Rust has some excellent ideas and > can likely move into this space, but it's not quite ready for prime time. > These are all still essentially procedural stack languages with manual memory > management though, as it's easy to reason about and provides cheap interop with > existing legacy C code. > [snip] > Are there any other (sane, supported) languages suitable for bare metal > programming that I ought to be aware of? Right now, C++ seems least-worst. > As you mention, C++ usually has a lot of required run-time support. C has *some* but it's requirements are the least. Part of the problem in adopting other languages for these low level tasks is the runtime that the language drags along with it. C is the default for this because it's required runtime is small and thus can be ported over easily (or written from scratch). Anytime you start putting an exception model or a higher level memory model (such as auto-allocation and garbage collection) in a language that immediately raises flags for me since the vast majority of my work is "at the metal". They get in my way for trying to implement what I'm trying to do (which is usually the lower levels of an OS). TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 4 17:15:44 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:15:44 -0800 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5480EB20.6080406@sydex.com> On 12/04/2014 01:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 03:32:38PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> . . . >>>>> long long int A; >>>>> int B; >>>>> A = B << 32; > The C99 (draft) standard says of << and >> that "[t]he behavior is undefined if > the right operand is negative, or greater than or equal to the length in bits > of the promoted left operand", with the C++ standard using much the same words > but in a different order. There are all sorts of edge cases and caveats in the > standard, but I've not omitted anything relevant. I think that Fred's also hinting at differences in x86 architecture as well. Some members of the family shift modulo (data item bit length); others shift (shift_count => data_length ? 0 : item << shift_count) And then there are some compiler implementations that direct the shift operator to an intrinsic library routine and shift one bit at a time, in a loop (the old Lattice C compiler would do this). So, the same code on either system yields a different result--and it's dangerous for any compiler to make any assumption about how the instruction operates. You could, of course, standardize the meaning of << on a particular platform by AND-ing the shift count with (data item bit length -1) -- which may or may not be what the writer intended. There, the best solution is to shoot the programmer for even writing such stuff. --Chuck From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 4 17:18:58 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:18:58 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1746A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D17671@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Sean Caron Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 2:56 PM > That's very interesting to know. I had always wondered how many were > made and where they went. Oh, quite a few more were made. They were used in-house at XKL for software development and CAD work as well as electronic mail and day-to- day computing. They were finally fully retired a few years ago. > Can anyone disclose the original list price of the TOAD-1? Or is that > off-limits? Just curious. It was public information. List price for a minimal configuration was $125,000. That comprised: 1 XKL-1 processor 1 XMG-1 memory (32MW @ 36b/W) 1 XNI-1 Ethernet interface (four 10baseT/AUI ports) 1 XRH-1 SCSI interface (four FASTWIDE differential ports) 1 DDS-2 DAT drive (internal) 1 4GB Seagate Barracuda SCSI drive (internal) with special microcode to allow formatting at 2304 bytes/sector (= 512 words = 1 page) The backplane had 7 slots, so additional memory and peripheral ports could be added. We also OEM'd the M4data 9914 9 track tape drive with a differential interface to allow companies to read archival data. Eventually we began using DLT IV drives in-house for backups, having learned the hard way that DAT was the wrong choice, and 9GB or 18GB disks. We'd have OEM'd those two, if we'd still been in the business of selling Toad-1 systems. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 17:25:41 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:25:41 -0700 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > I'm not sure why some people insist on bashing C because it can be > misused/abused. C is a tool for when you need to touch the metal. It's > just not what anyone should use to write applications. That's exactly the point. C (and C++) are widely used where they are inappropriate. Also C does not have any monopoly on being able to "touch the bare metal", nor is strong typing necessarily an impediment to doing so. Ada, despite being a "bondage and discipine" language, actually had as one of its design requirements the ability to deal with bare metal. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 4 17:28:42 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:28:42 -0000 Subject: Random DEC Questions In-Reply-To: <20141204225747.GQ22189@n0jcf.net> References: <034701d00ce8$54ec4260$fec4c720$@ntlworld.com> <035501d00d24$9672bcf0$c35836d0$@ntlworld.com> <013601d01011$745c5140$5d14f3c0$@ntlworld.com> <80AA9FF8-F8D7-4D5D-B4E7-EE974F32752B@platinum.net> <20141204225747.GQ22189@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <015001d0101a$0a613040$1f2390c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Elmquist > Sent: 04 December 2014 22:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Random DEC Questions > > On Thursday (12/04/2014 at 02:34PM -0800), Ian McLaughlin wrote: > > > > > On Dec 4, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > I opened up the VT320 tonight. The PSU is set for 240V, which is > > > good. However, I noticed some corrosion around the flyback > > > transformer. I have posted a picture here: http://1drv.ms/1zqDhx5 > > > > > > This looks like corrosion of some kind of retaining clip perhaps, rather than > anything functional. Am I right, or should I be concerned? > > > > The brown between the ferrite core and the white coil housing is normal glue > used in the flyback manufacture. > > > > However, the rust on the metal clip holding the ferrite core together is > definitely unusual - I've never seen this before. Obviously a sign of moisture at > some point in its history. Is there any other signs of moisture? The clip itself is > purely mechanical (holding the two parts of the ferrite core together) and > serves no electrical purpose. As long as it's still structurally sound, it's probably > ok. > > I have actually seen a lot of this, particularly on VT220 I have restored. > By the looks of yours, I'd say the clip is toast. > > It does hold the core together so if it comes apart and there's later vibration of > significance, the core might come apart and then you don't have a flyback > anymore. > > I would try to clean up the particles that remain as they are conductive and if > they migrate into other parts of the circuit or if the remains of the clip come > off and end up somewhere else in the circuit, you'll have a lot more to repair. Indeed, I intend to clean up the area as there are some rust particles around there. > > I have repaired several flybacks with this problem by removing them from the > board, removing the rusted clip and all the gunk and then threading a #12 or > #14 insulated copper wire through the core and around the ferrite and then > twisting it back on itself to cinch it up. > > You might also be able to accomplish similar without removing the flyback > from the board if you can get your cinch wire underneath the bottom of the > core, between it and the PCB and then wrap it over the top. I think the core > splits right about where most of your clip has disappeared-- about half way up > the side of the flyback in your photo. > > I haven't it done it this way myself but you might also be able to save it with > some epoxy or even hot melt glue if you can encapsulate both halves of the > ferrite that way. > It looks like I can get some wire around the core halves to hold them together, without removing the board. I will have a look at the weekend. Thanks Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 17:37:25 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:37:25 -0700 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yes, chainsaws are dangerous. So are motorcycles. > Some people ride motorcycles inappropriately, and indeed, some shouldn't > even consider one. Some ride motorcycles for the wrong reasons, such as > inability to afford a car. I agree with that, and I also believe that adults should be free to make the decision for themselves. However, in the vast majority of cases, if people ride a motorcycle and screw up (or someone else screws up), they are the one that is injured, and relatively little harm happens to anyone else. In the case of writing buggy C code, which is nearly the only kind, a programmer is potentially causing harm to a lot more people, especially in the future as the IoT takes off. I'm NOT arguing that the government or even a standards body or NGO should ban C. What I'm arguing is that we should develop a culture of using more appropriate tools. > Is C more dangerous than Assembly? In technical terms,no. In practice as actually applied, maybe, since many programmers mistakenly believe that C is a high-level language and assume that they don't need to know or understand what's really going on. That might work in a bondage-and-discipline language, but in C it's disastrous. There are numerous existence proofs that C is dangerous even when used by experts, so anyone using C without fully understanding it is in for a world of hurt for themself as well as their victims. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 4 17:38:47 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:38:47 +0000 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141204233847.GD788333@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 02:21:50PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 4, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: [...] >> So on systems where sizeof(int) <= sizeof(int32_t) -- which is everything >> that matters > Really? Where have you been? OS X the default has been to compile for > 64-bits in which case sizeof(int) == sizeof(int64_t) since Leopard (10.5) in > 2009. The kernel went default 64-bits in Snow Leopard (10.6) in 2010. OS X > on x86 has always supported mixed 32/64 bit applications (as long as the CPU > did) regardless of what the kernel was (a 32-bit kernel could run 64-bit > applications). Sorry, but you're wrong: $ clang --version Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.51) (based on LLVM 3.5svn) Target: x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0 Thread model: posix $ cat sizeof.c #include int main(void) { printf("sizeof(int) == %lu\n", sizeof(int)); return 0; } $ clang -m64 -Wall sizeof.c && ./a.out sizeof(int) == 4 The width of a *pointer* matches the architecture, 32 bits for i386 and 64 for x86_64, but the width of an *int* remains 32 bits for compatibility and performance reasons. The 64 bit integer type is called "long long" on both architectures. Obviously, one should use the typedefs in if a specific width integer is required, even if only to document intent. Have a look at the SysV ABI at http://www.x86-64.org/documentation.html for far too much gory detail and prime pedant material. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 17:39:38 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:39:38 -0700 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D17397@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D17397@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I don't pretend to have explored all the dark corners of Perl, As someone who has written a two-pass cross-assembler in Perl, it is my considered opinion that Perl consists almost entirely of dark corners. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 17:41:17 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 15:41:17 -0800 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM In-Reply-To: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> References: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:38 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Does anyone have this file? Did you have any luck finding a copy of WWENG2.SYS ? I have a copy of WWENG1.SYS from an OpenVMS SPL. No idea if that version is of any use to you. >From what shows up on the net when you search for WWENG2.SYS it looks like that was distributed through a different channel, the DECserver Network Access Software Distribution, and that is more difficult to find. Here's the SPD for DECserver Network Access Software Version 2.2 http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4613/SP4613PF.PDF Some old CD-ROM you might try to find by part number are: QA-0LWAJ-H8 QB-0LWAA-WA You could buy an official copy of the Digital Networks KT-DNAS3-00 kit for only $400: http://www.vnetek.com/p-2887-dnas-decserver-network-access-software.aspx From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 17:43:59 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:43:59 -0700 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <20141204134435.5f990364@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <20141204134435.5f990364@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > "Dale H. Cook" wrote: >> Speaking of that pioneering machine, does anyone know if there are >> any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT engineering prototype >> operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years ago, when it was >> housed adjacent to the TX-0 and the two were being used for speech >> synthesis experiments. From what I understand the operable machine on >> display at the CHM is a later C production version. > There are no current plans to restore another PDP-1 at the CHM... Nor is it likely that restoration of the prototype will ever be done. Restoring something that is mostly documented was a big challenge. Restoring something that is mostly undocumented is close enough to impossible that I doubt that those of us who were on the PDP-1 restoration team would ever seriously consider it, nor would anyone else sensible. CHM has a second production PDP-1 that would be a much better restoration candidate if the world needed a second operational PDP-1, which it doesn't. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 4 17:44:06 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 15:44:06 -0800 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204233847.GD788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> <20141204233847.GD788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <2BAE42F8-D101-4627-A58A-2108A2AC3FF8@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 4, 2014, at 3:38 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 02:21:50PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Dec 4, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > [...] >>> So on systems where sizeof(int) <= sizeof(int32_t) -- which is everything >>> that matters >> Really? Where have you been? OS X the default has been to compile for >> 64-bits in which case sizeof(int) == sizeof(int64_t) since Leopard (10.5) in >> 2009. The kernel went default 64-bits in Snow Leopard (10.6) in 2010. OS X >> on x86 has always supported mixed 32/64 bit applications (as long as the CPU >> did) regardless of what the kernel was (a 32-bit kernel could run 64-bit >> applications). > > Sorry, but you're wrong: > > [snip] > The width of a *pointer* matches the architecture, 32 bits for i386 and 64 for > x86_64, but the width of an *int* remains 32 bits for compatibility and > performance reasons. The 64 bit integer type is called "long long" on both > architectures. Obviously, one should use the typedefs in if a > specific width integer is required, even if only to document intent. > > Have a look at the SysV ABI at http://www.x86-64.org/documentation.html for far > too much gory detail and prime pedant material. > Yep. You're right. I was reading it wrong for some reason. ;-) I almost never code int in my code anyway. I always use the sized version (and I almost *never* use the signed version...always the unsigned). TTFN - Guy From supervinx at libero.it Thu Dec 4 18:03:57 2014 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:03:57 +0100 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM In-Reply-To: References: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1417737837.2373.156.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno gio, 04/12/2014 alle 15.41 -0800, Glen Slick ha scritto: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:38 AM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > Does anyone have this file? > > Did you have any luck finding a copy of WWENG2.SYS ? > > I have a copy of WWENG1.SYS from an OpenVMS SPL. No idea if that > version is of any use to you. > > >From what shows up on the net when you search for WWENG2.SYS it looks > like that was distributed through a different channel, the DECserver > Network Access Software Distribution, and that is more difficult to > find. > > Here's the SPD for DECserver Network Access Software Version 2.2 > http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4613/SP4613PF.PDF > > Some old CD-ROM you might try to find by part number are: > QA-0LWAJ-H8 > QB-0LWAA-WA > > You could buy an official copy of the Digital Networks KT-DNAS3-00 kit > for only $400: > http://www.vnetek.com/p-2887-dnas-decserver-network-access-software.aspx I have a copy of WWENG2.SYS -rw-r--r-- 1 supervinx supervinx 1646592 2012-10-07 17:47 DEC/wweng2.sys From rhirst at xkl.com Thu Dec 4 18:05:49 2014 From: rhirst at xkl.com (Roy Hirst) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:05:49 -0800 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <201412042054.sB4Ks01k067920@ultimate.com> References: <201412042054.sB4Ks01k067920@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <5480F6DD.9050304@xkl.com> Good questions, thanks. TOAD-2: Not a PDP anything clone. Embedded processor implemented on FPGA. Software (and firmware) cross compiled on some other platform. Instruction set and architecture optimized over several years for real-time switching. Bad things happen very rarely but at 10x10Gbps when bad things happen they can happen quickly. Manages system environmental status (e.g. some of the optics, such as filters, have tight dimensional tolerances and so can be temp sensitive) and status and control of data plane laser transceivers. Data plane drop rates must be < 1 bit in 10**16. Status and control is via a variety of signal pins and buses all with custom hardware interfaces to this processor. Reliability requirements are very high, systems must run unattended (sometimes in inaccessible places) for 5-10 years 24x7 continuous. Laser transceivers, fans, power supplies are all hot-swappable in the field, but not the embedded processor. In this embedded application there is a high value set on low power consumption (especially since systems get data-center racked and so need to be cooled). With this processor, you can run dual power supplies, four fans, a manageability plane, 10x10G client laser transceivers plus 2 DWDM 10x10G 80km transport lasers, in one rack unit for the same power as 2 domestic light bulbs. The proper 60-watt kind, not the new supermarket funny ones. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/4/2014 12:54 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > Roy Hirst >> Although here at XKL we don't still use TOAD-1s in the business, we do >> have a few engineers here in R&D that are bit-level familiar with the >> beast, even tho' the last living instance I believe is now at the Museum. >> I'd need to stay well clear of anything XKL-proprietary, but I would be >> happy to interview them and to put together a technical briefing on >> stuff we can talk about. Would take me a week. > Personally, I'd be more interested in hearing more about the "TOAD-2" > controllers used in current XKL equipment, starting with: > > Is the TOAD-2 a PDP-10 clone, as the TOAD-1 is? > > Is it running TOPS-20 (or some subset)? > > If not, is it a self-hosting system (is development for the platform > done on a TOAD-2) or is it an embedded processor, with binaries being > cross compiled on some other platform? > > Thanks! > Phil (who once worked on DEC FORTRAN-10/20) The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 4 18:06:39 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 00:06:39 +0000 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141205000639.GE788333@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 07:26:09PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: [...] > Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C isn't > the best I've seen. FORTRAN-77? BASIC+2? The list goes on... Personally I > might have done it in MACRO-11 as well. :-) The PDP-11 ISA is sane enough that one could create a LLVM backend and cross-compile to it using any of the LLVM-supported languages. It'd be quite perverse to run C++14 code on it, but the code would likely be smaller and faster than anything generated by a native compiler. Bonus points for running Java on it :) From rhirst at xkl.com Thu Dec 4 18:09:18 2014 From: rhirst at xkl.com (Roy Hirst) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:09:18 -0800 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <5480B229.1020204@bitsavers.org> References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> <5480B229.1020204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5480F7AE.1050208@xkl.com> Yes, Wayne and Ralph are definitely still here. Ralph was in my office earlier wanting to know how he might help. A privilege to work with these guys. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/4/2014 11:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/4/14 8:59 AM, Roy Hirst wrote: >> Although here at XKL we don't still use TOAD-1s in the business, we >> do have a few engineers here in R&D that are bit-level familiar with >> the beast, even tho' the last living instance I believe is now >> at the Museum. >> > Museums. The Computer History Museum has one as well. > > Wayne and Ralph are still there, I assume? > > The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 4 18:13:28 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 17:13:28 -0700 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: References: <547E0805.3060200@xkl.com> <547F7749.50205@update.uu.se> <85sigv3mgz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <54803F8E.2080003@update.uu.se> <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1746A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5480F8A8.5050803@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/4/2014 3:55 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > That's very interesting to know. I had always wondered how many were made > and where they went. > > Can anyone disclose the original list price of the TOAD-1? Or is that > off-limits? Just curious. > > Best, > > Sean > Like high end audio equipment ... If you have ask for the price, you can not afford it. :) Ben. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 4 18:14:31 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 00:14:31 +0000 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: References: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D17397@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20141205001431.GF788333@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: [...] >> I don't pretend to have explored all the dark corners of Perl, > As someone who has written a two-pass cross-assembler in Perl, it is my > considered opinion that Perl consists almost entirely of dark corners. Nah, there's a massive pile of really crufty bits right there in plain sight as well. I have made a reasonable living out of spelunking ancient Perl codebases, and there are times when it's like doing an autopsy on one of the Great Old Ones. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 18:14:47 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:14:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <5480EB20.6080406@sydex.com> References: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> <5480EB20.6080406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141204160027.B1305@shell.lmi.net> > >>>>> long long int A; > >>>>> int B; > >>>>> A = B << 32; On Thu, 4 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think that Fred's also hinting at differences in x86 architecture as > well. YES. > . . . > You could, of course, standardize the meaning of << on a particular > platform by AND-ing the shift count with (data item bit length -1) -- AND-ing a rotate count saves some time. AND-ing a SHIFT count intrinsically is doing something other than was ordered by the programmer. SHIFTing AX 32 bits would be one way to recognize the presence of 80386 or above. Prior to 386, it would clear the register, post 386 does nothing. SHIFT-ing one bit at a time for SHIFTCOUNT number of times would do what the programmer ordered, even if it is not the "best" way to clear a number, and gets rather silly if the programmer asked for 255 bits of shift. > which may or may not be what the writer intended. I think (and could be wrong), that the original intent of that piece of code was to put the contents of B into the upper 32 bits of A. (and assuming that A is 64 bit and B is 32 bit). But, it would fail to do that, simply because B would also have to be at least 64 bit for the shift to do that. > There, the best solution is to shoot the programmer for even writing > such stuff. always a much easier solution! (to almost any programming problem!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 4 18:17:11 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:17:11 -0800 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> Message-ID: <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> On 12/4/14 1:34 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > does anyone know if there are any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT engineering prototype operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years ago, when it was housed adjacent to the TX-0 No, because we don't have it. That machine was heavily modified, adding timesharing and converting it to 2's compliment arithmetic to the point where was known as the PDP-1-X I don't know where it eventually wound up, but didn't the MIT computer club have it for a while? From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 18:25:58 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 17:25:58 -0700 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:17 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/4/14 1:34 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> does anyone know if there are any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT >> engineering prototype operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years >> ago, when it was housed adjacent to the TX-0 > No, because we don't have it. > That machine was heavily modified, adding timesharing and converting it to > 2's compliment arithmetic > to the point where was known as the PDP-1-X CHM does have *a* PDP-1 prototype, though, which used to be in "Visible Storage", and that's the one that I opined would never be restored. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 4 18:30:24 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:30:24 -0800 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> On 12/4/14 4:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > CHM does have *a* PDP-1 prototype Correct. DEC's original prototype in funky light brown cabinet paint. http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666958 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 4 18:40:16 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 17:40:16 -0700 Subject: C, please die, In-Reply-To: <20141205001431.GF788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202184533.GC10871@beast.freibergnet.de> <547E61AC.2020202@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203064440.GA63633@beast.freibergnet.de> <547F18AE.1060605@telegraphics.com.au> <20141203083316.U81801@shell.lmi.net> <547F4B6A.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204190658.GA788333@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D17397@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20141205001431.GF788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5480FEF0.7030705@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/4/2014 5:14 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 04:39:38PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >> Rich Alderson wrote: > [...] >>> I don't pretend to have explored all the dark corners of Perl, >> As someone who has written a two-pass cross-assembler in Perl, it is my >> considered opinion that Perl consists almost entirely of dark corners. > > Nah, there's a massive pile of really crufty bits right there in plain sight as > well. I have made a reasonable living out of spelunking ancient Perl > codebases, and there are times when it's like doing an autopsy on one of the > Great Old Ones. > It is good to see other bits being used. There must be mountains of broken and aging 0's and 1's in this digital age to use up. :-) I think the real reason other other languages have appeared is that you have large memory to handle bigger problems of today. Ben. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Dec 4 18:40:42 2014 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:40:42 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: No such thing as Message-ID: <21486918.1417740042614.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Eric Smith >Sent: Dec 4, 2014 3:43 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] > >On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> "Dale H. Cook" wrote: >>> Speaking of that pioneering machine, does anyone know if there are >>> any plans by the CHM to try to make the MIT engineering prototype >>> operable? I last saw it in use at MIT about 45 years ago, when it was >>> housed adjacent to the TX-0 and the two were being used for speech >>> synthesis experiments. From what I understand the operable machine on >>> display at the CHM is a later C production version. > >> There are no current plans to restore another PDP-1 at the CHM... > >Nor is it likely that restoration of the prototype will ever be done. >Restoring something that is mostly documented was a big challenge. >Restoring something that is mostly undocumented is close enough to >impossible that I doubt that those of us who were on the PDP-1 >restoration team would ever seriously consider it, nor would anyone >else sensible. > >CHM has a second production PDP-1 that would be a much better >restoration candidate if the world needed a second operational PDP-1, >which it doesn't. I used that PDP-1 at MIT in 1972 or so for the 6.273 programming course. Still have my class notebook, with all my programs printed out on the Flexowriter terminals. That PDP-1 was not a 'virgin' PDP-1 any more even then, it had features added by eager grad students. As indicated above the second / backup that CHM has would be a better choice to restore. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 4 18:47:26 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 00:47:26 +0000 Subject: 36bit still in use ? In-Reply-To: <201412042054.sB4Ks01k067920@ultimate.com> References: <54809300.3040100@xkl.com> <201412042054.sB4Ks01k067920@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1784A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Phil Budne Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 12:54 PM > Personally, I'd be more interested in hearing more about the "TOAD-2" > controllers used in current XKL equipment, starting with: I'm not sure I'd agree with the designation "controller". > Is the TOAD-2 a PDP-10 clone, as the TOAD-1 is? The Toad-2 is an extended Toad-1 clone. It puts the entire Toad-1 multi-board system with improvements into a single FPGA. > Is it running TOPS-20 (or some subset)? It's running a slightly later version of TOPS-20 than the Toad-1 which employs the architectural enhancements of the Toad-2. > If not, is it a self-hosting system (is development for the platform > done on a TOAD-2) or is it an embedded processor, with binaries being > cross compiled on some other platform? Ralph has told us that (at least at one time) Toad-2 systems were being used by (some of) the engineers as development platforms, so I would call the Toad-2 self-hosting. >From what Roy Hirst has said, that may no longer be true, but I have no information on that point. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 4 21:12:38 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 21:12:38 -0600 Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <548122A6.4000806@pico-systems.com> On 12/04/2014 03:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 03:32:38PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> . . . >>>>> long long int A; >>>>> int B; >>>>> A = B << 32; > [...] >> So, should the compiler optimize that to >> MOV X,0 >> or >> NOP >> ? > That basically depends on what "long long" and "int" means :) > > The C99 (draft) standard says of << and >> that "[t]he behavior is undefined if > the right operand is negative, or greater than or equal to the length in bits > of the promoted left operand" Well, that's the problem! The destination was 64 bits, the operand was 32 bits. if the 32-bit operand got promoted to 64-bits, it would have worked as the original programmer intended. But, the whole operation was done at 32 bits, and the desired bits fell off the end. I thought that C did NOT promote smaller operands, so the behavior was actually expected, once I saw what was really going on there. Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 4 21:12:16 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 19:12:16 -0800 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2014-Dec-03, at 12:12 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Alternately, if anyone needs an MX-30 board set (sans memory) for a >> restoration, drop me a line and maybe we can work something out. Hate to >> sit on this forever and never get anything working... > > I certainly don't *need* one, and I'd be in the same boat w/ regard to > not being able to use it without the suitable memory. > I'm thinking about designing a new static RAM board for the 9830 for the 2015/07 > retrochallenge. Would this be for the sake of a fun project, or would it be practical necessity, such as need & availability of 1103's for repair? > If all the MX-30 needs is memory that is faster than > the stock HP memory, it's possible that a new static RAM board might > work. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Dec 4 21:22:18 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 22:22:18 -0500 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141205000639.GE788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> <20141205000639.GE788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <548124EA.9030402@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/12/14 7:06 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 07:26:09PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > [...] >> Pick and choose. Why not C? Although the code generated by the PDP-11 C isn't >> the best I've seen. FORTRAN-77? BASIC+2? The list goes on... Personally I >> might have done it in MACRO-11 as well. :-) > > The PDP-11 ISA is sane enough that one could create a LLVM backend and > cross-compile to it using any of the LLVM-supported languages. It'd be quite Does LLVM actually scale down that far in practice? I know, from having done most of a PDP-11 back-end, that *lcc*, "a retargetable C compiler," doesn't, really, without modification. > perverse to run C++14 code on it, but the code would likely be smaller and > faster than anything generated by a native compiler. > > Bonus points for running Java on it :) That isn't possible, the machine is far too small. Heck, this thread began with grave doubts that it can even run TeX. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Dec 4 21:25:55 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 22:25:55 -0500 Subject: OS X C types - was Re: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <20141204233847.GD788333@mooli.org.uk> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> <20141204233847.GD788333@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <548125C3.6030404@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/12/14 6:38 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 02:21:50PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Dec 4, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > [...] >>> So on systems where sizeof(int) <= sizeof(int32_t) -- which is everything >>> that matters >> Really? Where have you been? OS X the default has been to compile for >> 64-bits in which case sizeof(int) == sizeof(int64_t) since Leopard (10.5) in Maybe not: g5:~ toby$ cc -o test test.c g5:~ toby$ ./test sizeof(int) = 4 g5:~ toby$ uname -a Darwin g5 9.8.0 Darwin Kernel Version 9.8.0: Wed Jul 15 16:57:01 PDT 2009; root:xnu-1228.15.4~1/RELEASE_PPC Power Macintosh --Toby >> 2009. The kernel went default 64-bits in Snow Leopard (10.6) in 2010. OS X >> on x86 has always supported mixed 32/64 bit applications (as long as the CPU >> did) regardless of what the kernel was (a 32-bit kernel could run 64-bit >> applications). > > Sorry, but you're wrong: > > $ clang --version > Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.51) (based on LLVM 3.5svn) > Target: x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0 > Thread model: posix > > $ cat sizeof.c > #include > int main(void) { > printf("sizeof(int) == %lu\n", sizeof(int)); > return 0; > } > > $ clang -m64 -Wall sizeof.c && ./a.out > sizeof(int) == 4 > > The width of a *pointer* matches the architecture, 32 bits for i386 and 64 for > x86_64, but the width of an *int* remains 32 bits for compatibility and > performance reasons. The 64 bit integer type is called "long long" on both > architectures. Obviously, one should use the typedefs in if a > specific width integer is required, even if only to document intent. > > Have a look at the SysV ABI at http://www.x86-64.org/documentation.html for far > too much gory detail and prime pedant material. > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Dec 4 21:31:30 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 21:31:30 -0600 Subject: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! Message-ID: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> Fellow Classic Computer Enthusiasts, My 9406-270 has arrived. It was strapped to a small pallet with more bubble wrap around it than I think I've ever seen before. Somehow the pallet just fit in the back of my mini-van so the freight company was able to load it in there with a fork lift. I got it home and into my living room. It came without drives so I'm having to start from scratch. I have two drives in slots one and two, and think I have the twinax console connected correctly. It appears to IPL from CDROM but I'm not getting anything on the console other than the cursor moving from the upper right corner of the screen to the upper left corner of the screen after about twenty minutes of occasional CDROM activity. Does anyone have any pointers for a newbie at installing OS/400, or whatever V5R4 is called. I wish IBM would stop changing perfectly good OS and hardware names. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 4 22:10:58 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 20:10:58 -0800 Subject: OS X C types - was Re: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <548125C3.6030404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> <20141204233847.GD788333@mooli.org.uk> <548125C3.6030404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <54813052.1060407@shiresoft.com> On 12/4/14 7:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/12/14 6:38 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 02:21:50PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> [...] >>>> So on systems where sizeof(int) <= sizeof(int32_t) -- which is >>>> everything >>>> that matters >>> Really? Where have you been? OS X the default has been to compile for >>> 64-bits in which case sizeof(int) == sizeof(int64_t) since Leopard >>> (10.5) in > > Maybe not: > > g5:~ toby$ cc -o test test.c > g5:~ toby$ ./test > sizeof(int) = 4 > g5:~ toby$ uname -a > Darwin g5 9.8.0 Darwin Kernel Version 9.8.0: Wed Jul 15 16:57:01 PDT > 2009; root:xnu-1228.15.4~1/RELEASE_PPC Power Macintosh > I was wrong (already admitted that in another email on this thread). But PPC was never supported as fully 64-bits. Well you could write 64-bit user applications but all of the runtime was still 32-bits. You had to carefully craft your application to have a 64-bit (basically standalone) piece and everything else that interacted with the OS as 32-bits. The X86 version of Leopard didn't have that problem. TTFN - Guy From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 22:51:01 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 21:51:01 -0700 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 8:12 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2014-Dec-03, at 12:12 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I'm thinking about designing a new static RAM board for the 9830 for the 2015/07 >> retrochallenge. > Would this be for the sake of a fun project, or would it be practical necessity, such as need & availability of 1103's for repair? I've got plenty of 1103As. I have two 9830A memory boards, one good 4KW and one bad 2KW. I haven't found time to diagnose the bad one. But even if I fix that one, I'll only have 6KW. If I build my own RAM board, with a couple of jumpers to one of the other boards to pick up extra address lines, I can have 16KW. I also would like to design a 9880A disk emulator for it. That's more work than designing a RAM board, but it doesn't look too daunting. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 23:47:17 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 05:47:17 +0000 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > >> I'm thinking about designing a new static RAM board for the 9830 for the 2015/07 > >> retrochallenge. > > Would this be for the sake of a fun project, or would it be practical necessity, such as need & availability of > > 1103's for repair? > I've got plenty of 1103As. I have two 9830A memory boards, one good > 4KW and one bad 2KW. I haven't found time to diagnose the bad one. But > even if I fix that one, I'll only have 6KW. If I build my own RAM > board, with a couple of jumpers to one of the other boards to pick up > extra address lines, I can have 16KW. You can, of course, pick up the M register (memory address) on the top test connector of the memory address PCB. One gotcha, which I am sure you are aware of. The 98x0 do not have a nice, simple ROM/RAM address map. Most of the lower part of the address space is ROM, but there is a 512W (IIRC) block of RAM near the start where the processor stores the stack pointer, floating point registers, etc. It's something of a kludge, but the addresses had to be picked to take as few microinstructions as possible to generate (which means blocks of contiguous 1s and 0s in the address). The address decoding in a stock machine is done on the memory address PCB which outputs a select line for each 1KW block (== each bank of 1103s, of course). So you would either have to use that (at least for the first 1KW of RAM) or pick up all the address lines after M(9) (bits 0 to 9 are on the memory slot connector) and re-implement the address decoder. Not at all difficult, but something to realise before you start wiring up ICs... > I also would like to design a 9880A disk emulator for it. That's more > work than designing a RAM board, but it doesn't look too daunting. I assume you're jsut going to be plugging into the HP9830 I/O slot and not tryign to share between 4 machines. Or indeed using a mechanical disk drive. It shouldn't be too hard. The interface is basically programmed I/O for the commands (2 bytes, one is basically cylinder, the other is sector and read/write control). One of the status lines is the command byte selector, another 2 select the disk (not strictly the drive, an HP7900 is treated as 2 disks here). And what HP called DMA and the rest of the world call memory mapped I/O for a 256 word sector buffer. There's a fair amount of logic in a real 9880 system that you could forget about. Things like the actual width of the sector buffer -- it's 4 bits wide in the hardware. So much of the logic in the 11273 'cable' is involved with doing the transfer (bit serial of course) to/from the 9830 a nybble at a time. Then the disk data shift registers are 8 bits, so there's more buffers and latches to convert between that and the 4 bit buffer RAM. I have a real HP9880 going on the bench when I have finally sorted everythign out here. Well, OK, the drive is a 7900A taken from my 2100A system, it doesn't have the tabletop case of a 9880, but electronically it's all the right stuff, it's all HP. Getting that all going will be a fun project. -tony From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 21:43:50 2014 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 16:43:50 +1300 Subject: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! In-Reply-To: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: Kevin, are you *sure* you have the terminal plugged in to port 0 of the first controller? It *has* to be there to be a console... That moving of the cursor should be followed by messages in due course; it can be a *very* long IPL... Mike On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > Fellow Classic Computer Enthusiasts, > > My 9406-270 has arrived. It was strapped to a small pallet with more > bubble > wrap around it than I think I've ever seen before. Somehow the pallet just > fit in the back of my mini-van so the freight company was able to load it > in > there with a fork lift. > > I got it home and into my living room. It came without drives so I'm > having > to start from scratch. I have two drives in slots one and two, and think I > have the twinax console connected correctly. It appears to IPL from CDROM > but I'm not getting anything on the console other than the cursor moving > from the upper right corner of the screen to the upper left corner of the > screen after about twenty minutes of occasional CDROM activity. Does > anyone > have any pointers for a newbie at installing OS/400, or whatever V5R4 is > called. I wish IBM would stop changing perfectly good OS and hardware > names. > > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.Lassie.xyz > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 23:55:50 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 05:55:50 +0000 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >vThe Transputer card is 8 Bit ISA full size. It has the T414, a bunch of > 74TTL glue logic, 16 SIMM sockets, four populated, a button and a small, No C011 or C012 link adapter chip ? That's the IC to interface between a transputer link and a normal 8 bit bus. [Amusingly the registers look fairly like a DEC DL11...] > round 5-pin connector on the slot bracket. It is labeled "Monoputer 2 > v1.1 (C)Microway,Inc. 1988". The original Microway Monoputer was a fairly close clone of the Inmos B004. This sounds similar, with more recent RAM (the original one was full of DIP-packaged DRAMs). I find that 5 pin connector puzzling, though. Are there no other headers or connectors on the board. A transputer link is normally a 4 pin header (2 grounds, TxD, RxD) then there's the 3 wire Reset/Error/Analyse control link. IIRC the original Monoputer had a large array of header pins on the bracket, the 4 transputer links for the T4, the control link for that and the single transputer link and control link from the PC interface. You normally fitted a couple of jumper connectors to connect the T4 to the PC, but you didn't have to (you could connect another transputer to the PC interface and then hang the T4 off one if its links, for example). -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 5 01:50:39 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:50:39 -0800 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <62312F01-3472-4981-A8AE-9FD32D601248@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Dec-04, at 8:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 8:12 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2014-Dec-03, at 12:12 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> I'm thinking about designing a new static RAM board for the 9830 for the 2015/07 >>> retrochallenge. >> Would this be for the sake of a fun project, or would it be practical necessity, such as need & availability of 1103's for repair? > > I've got plenty of 1103As. I have two 9830A memory boards, one good > 4KW and one bad 2KW. I haven't found time to diagnose the bad one. But > even if I fix that one, I'll only have 6KW. If I build my own RAM > board, with a couple of jumpers to one of the other boards to pick up > extra address lines, I can have 16KW. OK, just asking as I have some NOS MIL 1103's in case it was need for such. (MIL = Microsystems International Limited, not 'mil-spec'.) > I also would like to design a 9880A disk emulator for it. That's more > work than designing a RAM board, but it doesn't look too daunting. From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Fri Dec 5 01:55:33 2014 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:55:33 +1100 Subject: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! In-Reply-To: References: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > That moving of the cursor should be followed by messages in due course; it > can be a *very* long IPL... I've waited 60+ minutes for a 9406-720 to start...it has a lot of spindles; AS/400s weren't intended to be switched-off. https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM9406720AS400?noredirect=1 Kevin: the install is relatively straight-forward from what I remember, I don't recall any surprises (see the above gallery for a few screens of my install) - however applying the PTFs can be an exercise in endurance, especially from a base install since sets of PTFs required a reboot so after spending a day restarting you might have completed 6 or so PTF sets. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Dec 5 02:10:21 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:10:21 +0100 Subject: RUNOFF was Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D5DA6@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB73D5DA6@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <5481686D.5000802@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-04 19:48, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > DEC sold WPS-8 which ran on PDP-8's, which was kinda WYSIWYG (rulers etc), but I don't know of anything quite up the WYSIWYG alley for the -11's. I seem to remember seeing something like WPS for PDP-11 as well. And for the Professional you had Prose. For Micro/RSX there was something called A-to-Z Word. I'm pretty sure there was one or two other things from DEC as well, but I can't recall right now. > Most common on an -11 was a basic text editor plus DECUS runoff (which most often just formatted for a line or dot matrix printer). That was probably the most common setup, yes. > DECUS runoff for the PDP-11 (at least in late 70's was under the DECUS text processing SIG) is obviously a reimplementation of most common features of PDP-10-ish DSR . I don't know if DEC ever officially had DSR for the PDP-11. DSR = "Digital Standard Runoff". Nope. DEC never offered DSR on PDP-11 systems, as far as I know. > DECUS runoff has a lot in common with DSR and the other "classic" runoffs but I've never done an actual entymology to see what is unique and what is common between them for a lineage. The offerings from DECUS was more of a superset of DSR. But they are unrelated as far as source goes, I believe. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 07:47:35 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:47:35 -0000 Subject: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: References: <5480788E.2050007@jetnet.ab.ca> <20141204093521.P98434@shell.lmi.net> <5480AF15.3050408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01bf01d01092$078a05e0$169e11a0$@gmail.com> Having maintained X.25 networking software written in Fortran-77 when I worked at Salford University, and written large amounts of Software on Honeywell L66 and DPS8 kit using "B", give me "C" any day. So a couple of answers:- 1. WHY Fortran-77 Well at the time many of the machines we were targeting did not have "C" compilers that were widely available to all owners of the machines. I think the major ones were ICL2900, Prime and IBM 370 series. All these had Fortran-77 installed and usable as we were providing code to UK Universities. Apart from the perhaps the Prime none had "C" compilers generally installed... 2.HOW? A major problem was there is no dynamic memory in Fortran-77. So we defined a large array of Character Variables (we called each element a "block") and then a matrix of integers. Each Character Variable in the array had some matching integers that could be used to define how the data in the character variable was to be used, so essentially a "Block Type". As Fortran-77 supports include files we had includes that defined offsets into the Character Variables and so defined the block structure....... Of course Fortran or its standard run-time library has no concept of networking so there was a host of machine dependant code hidden in a subroutine library. Definitely a total mis-use of the poor innocent Fortran-77 compiler, which I must say we broke on a frequent basis.... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor > Sent: 04 December 2014 19:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: C, please die, and take Go with you - Re: Fwd: is there any word > processing software for the pdp11? > > > > On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 12/04/2014 09:52 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> Is C more dangerous than Assembly? > > > > No, it isn't--it does, however, lack a good macro facility. Sadly, good macro > facilities for assemblers have been going out of style. Witness the > assemblers for modern MCUs. It's pretty much assumed that these will be > programmed in C--that's what the tool suite is written in and it's expected > that this is what people will use. An assembler is done because it's > customary. > > > > Viewed as a low-level implementation language a step above assembly, > run-time error checking is ridiculous. What do you do in an OS kernel when > an exception is thrown because of a coding error? You die--maybe with > some diagnostic information. Very often, there's no way forward. > > > > What a OS kernel programmer worries about is unexpected behavior of > physical devices. What do you do if a device dies in the middle of an > operation? What if a device simply misbehaves? Easy--you detect it and die. > > > > BSODs, DEADBEEF errors, you name it. > > > > You try to be as careful as you can be, coding correctly. If you can get a > buffer overrun, you should be checking for it. If you try to page out the > resident pager code, you did something wrong and no runtime error > checking is going to fix that. > > > > C is a chainsaw, as others have said. So is assembly. Trying to change it into > a screwdriver is a hopeless task. Just the idea of unrestricted pointers makes > good run-time diagnosis hopeless and is the bane of automatic compile-time > optimization. > > > > I am in favor of very good compile-time diagnostics, no matter the > language, however. Getting 150 error messages because you forgot to close > a brace somewhere is just stupid. > > To add to this. In a couple of places I was "forced" to use static analysis tools > to "check" my code. > This was usually required before a check-in. The problem with the analysis > tools is that: > (a) they didn't understand the kernel environment that I was working in (see > Chuck's earlier comment) > (b) they didn't understand (or weren't sophisticated enough) to understand > that certain conditions were > *can't* happen conditions but the tool would throw errors which in order > to remove (the errors) code > needed to be added that induced code-bloat and performance reductions. > > In the end, enough of us "kernel hacks" got management to relent and not > require the tool to be run on kernel code. We just ran with all error checks > enabled in the standard compiler. > > TTFN - Guy From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 5 08:43:18 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 14:43:18 +0000 Subject: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <548124EA.9030402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547E0441.407@update.uu.se> <20141205000639.GE788333@mooli.org.uk> <548124EA.9030402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20141205144318.GA834632@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 04, 2014 at 10:22:18PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/12/14 7:06 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: [...] >> The PDP-11 ISA is sane enough that one could create a LLVM backend and >> cross-compile to it using any of the LLVM-supported languages. It'd be >> quite > Does LLVM actually scale down that far in practice? I know, from having done > most of a PDP-11 back-end, that *lcc*, "a retargetable C compiler," doesn't, > really, without modification. While the main focus is x86 and ARM, it does indeed scale down to 8 and 16 bit CPUs. There is a port to Z80, for example. 6502 doesn't count as "sane enough" (the ISA doesn't lend itself well to local variables on the stack) but there are even people having a crack at that. The real gotcha is that writing a backend involves a rather steep learning curve. I've done the research required to create a m68k backend -- I want to generate Amiga binaries using the native calling conventions -- and it's still rather intimidating. >> Bonus points for running Java on it :) > That isn't possible, the machine is far too small. Heck, this thread began > with grave doubts that it can even run TeX. There are small versions of Java intended for tiny CPUs. No interesting Java program would run on a PDP-11, but that's not really why one would do this :) From Mark at Misty.com Fri Dec 5 09:14:33 2014 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:14:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM In-Reply-To: <1417737837.2373.156.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> <1417737837.2373.156.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <20141205151433.GA71692@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 01:03:57AM +0100, supervinx wrote: > Il giorno gio, 04/12/2014 alle 15.41 -0800, Glen Slick ha scritto: > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:38 AM, Robert Jarratt > > wrote: > > > Does anyone have this file? > > > > Did you have any luck finding a copy of WWENG2.SYS ? > > > > I have a copy of WWENG1.SYS from an OpenVMS SPL. No idea if that > > version is of any use to you. > > > > >From what shows up on the net when you search for WWENG2.SYS it looks > > like that was distributed through a different channel, the DECserver > > Network Access Software Distribution, and that is more difficult to > > find. > > > > Here's the SPD for DECserver Network Access Software Version 2.2 > > http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4613/SP4613PF.PDF > > > > Some old CD-ROM you might try to find by part number are: > > QA-0LWAJ-H8 > > QB-0LWAA-WA > > > > You could buy an official copy of the Digital Networks KT-DNAS3-00 kit > > for only $400: > > http://www.vnetek.com/p-2887-dnas-decserver-network-access-software.aspx > > I have a copy of WWENG2.SYS > > -rw-r--r-- 1 supervinx supervinx 1646592 2012-10-07 17:47 DEC/wweng2.sys Does anyone know how to extract one of these from the flash card? I've got a 900TM booting from flash with version 2.4 WWENG2.SYS on the card, but I can't figure out how to copy it off the card for another 900TM. I obtained a second 900TM that didn't have a card included. I won a "Mitsubishi Melcard 2MB F?E?PROM MEMORY Card MF82M1-77DAT01" on e-bay, which is identical to what DEC provided, and successfully booted and loaded wweng2.sys version 2.2, which I believe is the 1646592 byte version supervinx also has. My 900TM with 2.4 works better than the other one booting 2.2. If anyone has any info on reading WWENG2.SYS 2.4 off my working unit, please let me know. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Dec 5 10:05:51 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:05:51 -0600 Subject: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! In-Reply-To: References: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20141205160551.GA13954@RawFedDogs.net> Mike, I replied to you privately before noticing you'd also sent your reply to the list. I see private replies before list replies since mail from this list gets sorted into its own mailbox. I'll reply here too in case anyone else has any suggestions. If replying to the list there's no need to also send me a private reply. On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 04:43:50PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > Kevin, are you *sure* you have the terminal plugged in to port 0 of the > first controller? It *has* to be there to be a console... There is only one twinax card in my 270 and I only have one terminal connected which is connected to port 0. From the terminal under setup I checked and it shows it's set up as display 0. So the terminal is display 0 on port 0. > That moving of the cursor should be followed by messages in due course; it > can be a *very* long IPL... I may just need to give it more time. I think with my first IPL attempt I let it run for over an hour. This is my first attempt at IPLing one of these boxes from CDROM so I have no idea how long it usually takes. At work I've only had the opportunity to IPL from DASD after the OS was installed, usually after full backups. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From mazzinia at tin.it Fri Dec 5 10:10:04 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 17:10:04 +0100 Subject: R: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! In-Reply-To: <20141205160551.GA13954@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> <20141205160551.GA13954@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <009701d010a5$f0cf4c70$d26de550$@tin.it> Did you install 2 hard disks with the specific as/400 firmware and geometry ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Kevin Monceaux Inviato: venerd? 5 dicembre 2014 17:06 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! Mike, I replied to you privately before noticing you'd also sent your reply to the list. I see private replies before list replies since mail from this list gets sorted into its own mailbox. I'll reply here too in case anyone else has any suggestions. If replying to the list there's no need to also send me a private reply. On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 04:43:50PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > Kevin, are you *sure* you have the terminal plugged in to port 0 of > the first controller? It *has* to be there to be a console... There is only one twinax card in my 270 and I only have one terminal connected which is connected to port 0. From the terminal under setup I checked and it shows it's set up as display 0. So the terminal is display 0 on port 0. > That moving of the cursor should be followed by messages in due > course; it can be a *very* long IPL... I may just need to give it more time. I think with my first IPL attempt I let it run for over an hour. This is my first attempt at IPLing one of these boxes from CDROM so I have no idea how long it usually takes. At work I've only had the opportunity to IPL from DASD after the OS was installed, usually after full backups. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Dec 5 10:32:11 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:32:11 -0600 Subject: R: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! In-Reply-To: <009701d010a5$f0cf4c70$d26de550$@tin.it> References: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> <20141205160551.GA13954@RawFedDogs.net> <009701d010a5$f0cf4c70$d26de550$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20141205163211.GA31605@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 05:10:04PM +0100, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Did you install 2 hard disks with the specific as/400 firmware and > geometry ? Yes, I installed a pair of these: http://www.eBay.com/itm/310056981914 -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 5 10:58:20 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:58:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: 22-bit ECO for REV11 [AKA TEV11] (M9400) Message-ID: <20141205165820.DCC0E18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Does anyone know if an ECO exists to convert a REV11 board (M9400) to > 22-bit BTW, it appears that that board (in some configurations) is also known as a TEV11. > in the same way that an ECO exists to convert BDV11's to 22-bit? (On > the BDV11, there's a resistor pack with 4 unused pull-up/down pairs So I located a set of prints for the TEV11 (which I must scan and get to Al, they don't appear to be available online), and on the M9400 there are four spare pull-up/down pairs, although not all in one package. They are: E6-1 E17-1 E17-12 E27-15 I have verified that these are free (looked at a board, no traces to those pins). (And yes, the 1 pin is usable - it's used in E27.) Not all in the same package, so the ECO will be a bit messy, but it can be done. Guess I should read out the ROMs, too (assuming they haven't already suffered bit rot). Noel From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Dec 5 10:59:59 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 09:59:59 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) Message-ID: I have had my PDP-8 (no letter) since around 1985. As part of the deal I got a little over 200 DECtapes. Most of these are SCOTCH 3M branded in cardboard boxes and not DEC branded DECtapes in the clear blue plastic containers. I have been thinking about moving this data to a permanent storage location so I wondered how much space this would require. Turns out to be about 57 million bytes and that would be without bothering to do any compression. The trivia question is: Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the list. I will give my answer in a few days. Doug Ingraham From b4 at gewt.net Fri Dec 5 11:02:11 2014 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:02:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Doug Ingraham wrote: > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > > As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the > list. I will give my answer in a few days. > Physically, or data-wise? ;) > > Doug Ingraham > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 11:06:32 2014 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:06:32 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends how you stack them. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? >> >> As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the >> list. I will give my answer in a few days. >> >> > Physically, or data-wise? ;) > > >> Doug Ingraham >> >> > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 5 11:19:18 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:19:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? In-Reply-To: <548122A6.4000806@pico-systems.com> References: <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <20141202121837.P65314@shell.lmi.net> <7808D38D-21A1-43C3-9D05-BE8F0463919C@gmail.com> <20141202143046.A65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141202152239.K65314@shell.lmi.net> <20141204215018.GB788333@mooli.org.uk> <548122A6.4000806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <201412051719.MAA10485@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> The C99 (draft) standard says of << and >> that "[t]he behavior is >> undefined if the right operand is negative, or greater than or equal >> to the length in bits of the promoted left operand" > I thought that C did NOT promote smaller operands, so the behavior > was actually expected, once I saw what was really going on there. C promotes operands...sometimes. The example works just fine if int is 64 bits, because then the default integral promotions promote the 32-bit value to 64 bits before the shift happens. The "promoted left operand" in the quote refers to the left operand after the default integer promotions. In this case this is a little misleading, because (taken out of context, as here) it looks as though it may be talking about promoting it to a type appearing somewhere else, such as (in this case) the LHS of the assignment. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 5 11:24:01 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:24:01 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141205172401.GA28445@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 09:59:59AM -0700, Doug Ingraham wrote: > The trivia question is: > > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > > As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the > list. I will give my answer in a few days. This has been up on the list before :) Entertaining nontheless. My answer: all of them! Cheers, Pontus From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 5 11:27:56 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:27:56 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5481EB1C.50305@bitsavers.org> On 12/5/14 8:59 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > All of them. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 11:45:15 2014 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:45:15 +0100 Subject: HP LaserJet Font cartridges needed by anyone? Message-ID: With a nice HP85 computer I just got there were two HP 92286K MATH TMS font cartridges included. I have no idea why. Myself I have no compatible printer. Does anyone want the font cartridges? Free for cost of shipping from Sweden. I save them for a couple of months then I toss them if there is no interest. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 12:10:28 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:10:28 -0700 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 10:47 PM, tony duell wrote: > I assume you're jsut going to be plugging into the HP9830 I/O slot Yes. I'm considering putting the mass storage ROM on the I/O slot card also (similarly to how the sector buffer works), but since that ROM is hard-addressed, that won't actually free up the ROM slot it would normally occupy. > and not tryign to share between 4 machines. Or indeed using a mechanical > disk drive. Would use MicroSD cards. One newly-designed module in the I/O slot, which would talk to a small external box with four MicroSD sockets. I could actually consider having the box be able to talk to multiple 9830s in a manner analgous to what the 11305A controller did, but I only have one 9830. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 12:13:46 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:13:46 -0700 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: <62312F01-3472-4981-A8AE-9FD32D601248@cs.ubc.ca> References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> <62312F01-3472-4981-A8AE-9FD32D601248@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 12:50 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > OK, just asking as I have some NOS MIL 1103's in case it was need for such. Thanks for the offer. I've got four tubes of 1103A chips that are actually surplus from HP. I haven't tested any yet, but I expect that they should be OK. > (MIL = Microsystems International Limited, not 'mil-spec'.) A friend has a MIL8008. Before he showed me that I wasn't aware that there had been a second source for the 8008. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 12:18:10 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:18:10 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? All that were ever made? -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 5 12:27:39 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:27:39 -0600 Subject: HP Interex & HP1000 Contributed Library Message-ID: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> I'm not sure I ever posted this publicly, never went out of my way to do so in any case. The HP Interex and HP 1000 Contributed Library website (I think it was interex.org) went down quite a few years ago, and I managed to scarf a complete copy of the site after the pending turnoff was announced but before it went dark. This content is all at http://www.classiccmp.org/interex There are two folders: One is the proceedings, slideshows, etc. of all the HP Interex meetings and the other is the entire HP CSL for HP1000. As usual, please do not rape the content. If you need more than a few files here and there please contact me off-list to arrange a hard drive swap, etc. Best, J From andy.holt at tesco.net Fri Dec 5 12:21:05 2014 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:21:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1621451636.588751.1417803665875.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> >>>> From: "Doug Ingraham" The trivia question is: Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? <<<< I should think that you are unlikely to be able to stack more than 20 or so without the pile falling-off. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 12:26:27 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:26:27 +0000 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > > I assume you're jsut going to be plugging into the HP9830 I/O slot > Yes. I'm considering putting the mass storage ROM on the I/O slot card > also (similarly to how the sector buffer works), but since that ROM is > hard-addressed, that won't actually free up the ROM slot it would > normally occupy. I don't really see the point. It's fairly easy to make a ROM cartridge that takes EPROMS (IIRC 2 EPROMs, a 74x00 and a couple of transistors (to convert the 12V selects back to 5V). Such a board (hand wired) was shown at HPCC a couple of years ago. If you do make your own Mass Memory ROM module, figure out a way to have a switch to disable it. The Mass Memory ROM intercepts all sorts of BASIC commands, to the extent that DISP and PRINT (at least) fail unless there is a working disk drive connected too. Continually plugging and unplugging the ROM is hard on the connectors (yes, you can still get them, but desoldering the old one is a pain). Incidentally, the ROM module connector on the 9830 (but not on the smaller machines) is 0.125" pitch, double sides, 18 pins on each side. Now where have you seen that before :-). It made finding an extender board very easy when I was fiddling in that area. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 12:46:24 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:46:24 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <1621451636.588751.1417803665875.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: , <1621451636.588751.1417803665875.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: > >> The trivia question is: >> >> Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > > I should think that you are unlikely to be able to stack more than 20 or so without the pile falling-off. Just one, because the second (and subsequent ones) are on top of a DECtape, not (directly) on the 1TB drive? -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 5 12:50:35 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:50:35 -0000 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM In-Reply-To: <20141205151433.GA71692@allie.home.misty.com> References: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> <1417737837.2373.156.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <20141205151433.GA71692@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <021801d010bc$5a829df0$0f87d9d0$@ntlworld.com> > Does anyone know how to extract one of these from the flash card? > > I've got a 900TM booting from flash with version 2.4 WWENG2.SYS on the card, > but I can't figure out how to copy it off the card for another 900TM. > > I obtained a second 900TM that didn't have a card included. I won a "Mitsubishi > Melcard 2MB F?E?PROM MEMORY Card MF82M1-77DAT01" on e-bay, which is > identical to what DEC provided, and successfully booted and loaded wweng2.sys > version 2.2, which I believe is the 1646592 byte version supervinx also has. > > My 900TM with 2.4 works better than the other one booting 2.2. If anyone has > any info on reading WWENG2.SYS 2.4 off my working unit, please let me know. > I tried looking for one of these cards on Ebay in the UK and drew a blank. I tried a few alternative searches too, but still got nowhere. Is there anything else I could look for that would do the same thing? If so, how do you get the software onto the card? Thanks Rob From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 5 14:12:10 2014 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 21:12:10 +0100 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <007e01d010c7$c11e0210$435a0630$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens tony duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 5 december 2014 19:26 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM > > > > I assume you're jsut going to be plugging into the HP9830 I/O slot > > > Yes. I'm considering putting the mass storage ROM on the I/O slot card > > also (similarly to how the sector buffer works), but since that ROM is > > hard-addressed, that won't actually free up the ROM slot it would > > normally occupy. > > I don't really see the point. It's fairly easy to make a ROM cartridge that takes > EPROMS (IIRC 2 EPROMs, a 74x00 and a couple of transistors (to convert the > 12V selects back to 5V). Such a board (hand wired) was shown at HPCC a couple > of years ago. > > If you do make your own Mass Memory ROM module, figure out a way to have > a switch to disable it. The Mass Memory ROM intercepts all sorts of BASIC > commands, to the extent that DISP and PRINT (at least) fail unless there is a > working disk drive connected too. Continually plugging and unplugging the ROM > is hard on the connectors (yes, you can still get them, but desoldering the old > one is a pain). > > Incidentally, the ROM module connector on the 9830 (but not on the smaller > machines) is 0.125" pitch, double sides, 18 pins on each side. Now where have > you seen that before :-). It made finding an extender board very easy when I was > fiddling in that area. > > -tony= For who is interested, I'm busy designing a replacement rom board so failing boards can be replaced ( I know at least 3 9830 with failing rom's) I'm ready with the artwork of the connector fingers 2x10 and 2x25 (Ultiboard), if any one wants a copy of those drop me a line offlist. The board will support 27C64 to 27C256 eproms, at first when the board is ready I'll order a prototype serie. -Rik From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Dec 5 14:22:58 2014 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:22:58 +0000 Subject: HP Interex & HP1000 Contributed Library In-Reply-To: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> References: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05736B6980@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Jay, Thanks for saving this. Do you know if there is some kind of index somewhere? I'm browsing some of the presentations and it would be nice to know what the topics are before downloading each pdf. Thanks. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 12:28 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: HP Interex & HP1000 Contributed Library I'm not sure I ever posted this publicly, never went out of my way to do so in any case. The HP Interex and HP 1000 Contributed Library website (I think it was interex.org) went down quite a few years ago, and I managed to scarf a complete copy of the site after the pending turnoff was announced but before it went dark. This content is all at http://www.classiccmp.org/interex There are two folders: One is the proceedings, slideshows, etc. of all the HP Interex meetings and the other is the entire HP CSL for HP1000. As usual, please do not rape the content. If you need more than a few files here and there please contact me off-list to arrange a hard drive swap, etc. Best, J From roeapeterson at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 14:36:37 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 14:36:37 -0600 Subject: Strange qbus board Message-ID: <13E6E3FD-0D88-4402-B0BE-8385C8F5EA14@gmail.com> I received a qbus board with a small pdp11/23 system recently, and I can't find any info about it with my best googling. It's made by data systems design, copyright 1980, appears to be model 804120-01. Dual-width qbus board, with a 34-pin ribbon cable connector on the top board edge, maybe floppy controller? The only real non-ttl non-rom chip is a AM2901BPC. This seems to be a four-bit bit slice micro... Anyone ever seen this beastie? Thanks. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Dec 5 14:57:39 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 21:57:39 +0100 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <54821C43.2080406@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 05.12.14 06:55, schrieb tony duell: > No C011 or C012 link adapter chip ? [inspecting card] Yes, there is an IMSC012P. > Are there no other headers or connectors on the board. There is a 24 pin IDC header. The bush button and the 5-pin connector on the bracket are connected to that 24 pin header by a cable. Only 4 out of the 24 pins are used. -- tsch??, Jochen From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 5 15:11:23 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 15:11:23 -0600 Subject: HP Interex & HP1000 Contributed Library In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05736B6980@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05736B6980@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <003601d010d0$06b52080$141f6180$@classiccmp.org> A few items of note.... Someone said the CSL1000 library shows the files, but the actual FST files aren't there. I went to look at this, and the FST files are there, just all zipped up in a different stop. There is also a directory that isn't shown for some reason - "hold" and "rtecsl" (separate from the csl1000 folder). I strongly suspect that this was due to the fact that I wasn't sure about copyright/ownership/legality/etc and as such I didn't really structure the content for public viewing until I was fairly sure it was ok to do so. I will have a look-see over the weekend and see if I can clean up the site but the "missing" content apparently is there just not publicly listed. While I'm ok releasing all the files, I'm not sure I should put all the original HTML back as then I'd be hosting an identical site of the interex organization. Don't wanna step on that landmine. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 5 15:29:45 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 15:29:45 -0600 Subject: hp2K and interex Message-ID: <000001d010d2$97f0ed70$c7d2c850$@classiccmp.org> I did find this entry in the CSL1000 library to be of interest! BAS200 - HP 2000F BASIC FOR DOS-M/DOS III 2001 X172Keywords: 99.5- 10 BASIC So Hp2000/F was ported to DOS-M/DOS III? Wowsers. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 5 16:21:33 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 16:21:33 -0600 Subject: looking for TI printer Message-ID: <000001d010d9$d439a680$7cacf380$@classiccmp.org> Looking for a TI 820 KSR printer. Anyone have a working one available for trade? J From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 5 16:37:01 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:37:01 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5482338D.6080909@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/5/2014 9:59 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > I have had my PDP-8 (no letter) since around 1985. As part of the deal I > got a little over 200 DECtapes. Most of these are SCOTCH 3M branded in > cardboard boxes and not DEC branded DECtapes in the clear blue plastic > containers. I have been thinking about moving this data to a permanent > storage location so I wondered how much space this would require. Turns > out to be about 57 million bytes and that would be without bothering to do > any compression. > > The trivia question is: > > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > > As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the > list. I will give my answer in a few days. > *ONE*, placed nicely over the top of the HD. > Doug Ingraham Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 5 16:44:38 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:44:38 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <5482338D.6080909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5482338D.6080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <54823556.7090302@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/5/2014 3:37 PM, ben wrote: > On 12/5/2014 9:59 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: >> I have had my PDP-8 (no letter) since around 1985. As part of the deal I >> got a little over 200 DECtapes. Most of these are SCOTCH 3M branded in >> cardboard boxes and not DEC branded DECtapes in the clear blue plastic >> containers. I have been thinking about moving this data to a permanent >> storage location so I wondered how much space this would require. Turns >> out to be about 57 million bytes and that would be without bothering >> to do >> any compression. >> >> The trivia question is: >> >> Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? >> >> As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the >> list. I will give my answer in a few days. >> > > *ONE*, placed nicely over the top of the HD. > >> Doug Ingraham > Ben. > No wait. *NONE* if that is a empty reel. :) Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 5 16:44:38 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 14:44:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <5482338D.6080909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5482338D.6080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20141205144356.G15360@shell.lmi.net> > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the > list. I will give my answer in a few days. How many will fit in a station wagon? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 5 16:03:53 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:03:53 -0000 Subject: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? References: <547BC7B0.7060303@telegraphics.com.au> <547BC836.7050402@telegraphics.com.au> <547CA565.4090108@pico-systems.com> <547D33B9.9000607@telegraphics.com.au> <547DF20F.5050000@pico-systems.com> <547E62D6.9040802@telegraphics.com.au> <201412031312.IAA17123@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <547F19A8.1010906@telegraphics.com.au> <547FCAD1.8080605@update.uu.se> <547FCE71.80103@telegraphics.com.au> <547FD2B8.3010204@update.uu.se> <547FD642.7090603@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <00ad01d010df$70817c70$1cfd050a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:34 AM Subject: Re: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11? > Why is it so ridiculous to suggest better tools? It's not even a new > suggestion; as far as I know, people have been working on better tools > since the invention of the computer. > I don't know about you guys, but whilst working on my current Amiga game I ended up writing my own tools (sound editor and a level editor). Are they better than other peoples? Maybe not, but they are easy for me to use and have all the features that I think I will ever need. If there is a feature missing, I can add it if I feel it will be worth my time to do so. If you don't want to use someone elses tools (for whatever reason), then you create your own with the features that you want. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Dec 5 17:05:20 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 18:05:20 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> >tony duell wrote: >>Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? >> >All that were ever made? > If I remember correctly, a TU-58 tape holds 512 blocks of 512 bytes or 262,144 bytes in total or 2 ** 18 bytes Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes, each drive could hold 2 ** 22 tapes or 4 million tapes. Please correct my arithmetic if I made any mistakes. Depending on the over capacity specified by the manufacturer of a hard drive (usually unformatted capacity), a terabyte drive should still be able to hold at least 3 million tapes. I don't have any production figures from DEC for TU-58 tapes, but 3 million could certainly be a good order of magnitude estimate for the total production. Jerome Fine From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Dec 5 17:21:47 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 23:21:47 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1917A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jerome H. Fine Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 3:05 PM >> tony duell wrote: >>> Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? >> All that were ever made? > If I remember correctly, a TU-58 tape holds 512 blocks of 512 bytes > or 262,144 bytes in total or 2 ** 18 bytes Jerome, "DECtape" without a following "II" refers to *real* DECtape, the 3/4" medium used on DEC's 555, TU-55 and TU-56 DECtape drives. These were formatted with 578 blocks of 256 18-bit words (even for the PDP-11, which ignored bits 0 and 1) or 1102 blocks of 129 12-bit words (= 86 18-bit words) depending on which architecture the drives were connected to. These were 4" reels, not cassettes. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From Mark at Misty.com Fri Dec 5 17:28:07 2014 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:28:07 -0500 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM In-Reply-To: <021801d010bc$5a829df0$0f87d9d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> <1417737837.2373.156.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <20141205151433.GA71692@allie.home.misty.com> <021801d010bc$5a829df0$0f87d9d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20141205232807.GA1022@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:50:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Does anyone know how to extract one of these from the flash card? > > > > I've got a 900TM booting from flash with version 2.4 WWENG2.SYS on the > card, > > but I can't figure out how to copy it off the card for another 900TM. > > > > I obtained a second 900TM that didn't have a card included. I won a > "Mitsubishi > > Melcard 2MB F?E?PROM MEMORY Card MF82M1-77DAT01" on e-bay, which is > > identical to what DEC provided, and successfully booted and loaded > wweng2.sys > > version 2.2, which I believe is the 1646592 byte version supervinx also > has. > > > > My 900TM with 2.4 works better than the other one booting 2.2. If anyone > has > > any info on reading WWENG2.SYS 2.4 off my working unit, please let me > know. > > > > I tried looking for one of these cards on Ebay in the UK and drew a blank. I > tried a few alternative searches too, but still got nowhere. Is there > anything else I could look for that would do the same thing? If so, how do > you get the software onto the card? > > Thanks > > Rob I found some discussion of card compatibility here: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.os.vms/2004-10/1901.html You should be able to hit CTRL-B a couple times on the first serial port during power up to get to a ">>>" prompt, then do something like this: >>> INIT FROM ETHER IMAGE WWENG2 UPDATE FLASH DELAY 0 I had some trouble getting to the ">>>" prompt successfully, but once there, had no trouble netbooting and updating the flash. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 5 18:09:05 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 00:09:05 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:05:20PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: [...] > Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] It's not, it's 10**12. Every other use of SI multipliers are powers-of-ten, and computers are not special little snowflakes entitled to be different. As it happens, a disk with a nominal capacity of 1TB will actually contain exactly 1,000,204,886,016 bytes[0], which is a quite curious number. Unless I've screwed up my maths, the capacity of a drive with a nominal capacity of X TB is exactly 1,000,194,048,000X + 10,838,016 bytes. Those numbers factorise to 2**17 * 3**3 * 5**3 * 7*17 * 19 and 2**13 * 3**3 * 7**2 respectively. Now they're going to be divisible by 2**12 as that's the sector size, but the remaining factors do not suggest any obvious rounding-off boundary. [0] The data sheet I have for Seagate's 1TB ST1000DM003 gives its capacity as 1,953,525,168 (512-byte) sectors, with the other disks sharing the data sheet also having sector counts ending in 168. WD's data sheet for the 1TB WD10EZEX claims 1,953,525,169 sectors, but the other disks on that data sheet have sector counts ending 168 and 448. I thus believe the 169 to be a typo of 168, as it would mean that the disk's capacity is not a multiple of the 4096-byte sector size typical of large disks. It is increasingly-rare to find exact capacities on data sheets, so I have not checked against other manufacturers, but I gather that they have all agreed to give their disks the same geometry for a given nominal advertised capacity. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 5 18:20:34 2014 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 16:20:34 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > On Dec 5, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:05:20PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > [...] >> Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] > > [snip] > > It is increasingly-rare to find exact capacities on data sheets, so I have > not checked against other manufacturers, but I gather that they have all > agreed to give their disks the same geometry for a given nominal advertised > capacity. > The reason for that is primarily for spares. Since the interfaces now in use are LBA based, the drive when it detects a bad sector is free to reallocate the sector from its spares pool. This simplifies software in that it doesn't have to manage bad blocks...the drive does it. How much space is reserved on the drive is decided by the manufacturer. Usually there are some number of spare sectors allocated to the cylinder itself and then there are entire spare cylinders. The drive manufacturers don't agree on geometry. You don't see it because it's all hidden behind the LBA interface. Drive capacity (and drive cost) is driven by 2 fundamental things: number of platters and number of heads. Yes, there are others such as quality of the media and motor, but within a family the media and motor are common. A drive manufacturer will "de-rate" a drive by not putting in all of the heads. Actually a family of drives is 1, 2 (or sometimes 3) platters and 2n or 2n-1 heads (where n is the number of platters). TTFN - Guy From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 18:33:10 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:33:10 -0600 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN Message-ID: Hey folks, I really need some cash and some space, so it's time for my Intel Intellec MDS gear to find a new home. I inherited this kit some years ago, and know almost nothing about it - in fact, I'm even confused as to the correct model number; 'experts disagree', it's either an MDS-225 or MDS-800. It's a large white cube, about 20" on a side, with a CRT, one 8" floppy and a number of plug-in boards. There is also a blue Intel dual 8" drive, one seriously heavy-duty keyboard, a few cables and a bevy of 8" floppy discs. I also have an ICE pod for it, somewhere.. It has never been powered-up once since I've had it, though it was apparently 'working fine' when retired sometime in the early-mid 1990s. Cosmetics are very good, it's no ugly duckling by any stretch. Photos will appear as I'm able to move it to a location with sufficient light. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Dec 5 18:51:15 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:51:15 -0600 Subject: The 9406-270 Has Arrived!! In-Reply-To: <20141205160551.GA13954@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141205033130.GA13369@RawFedDogs.net> <20141205160551.GA13954@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20141206005114.GA6731@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 10:05:51AM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 04:43:50PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > > That moving of the cursor should be followed by messages in due course; it > > can be a *very* long IPL... > > I may just need to give it more time. I think with my first IPL attempt I > let it run for over an hour. Well, I don't know if I accidentally did something to fix it or if it just needed more time. After a suggestion received via a private reply I tried to check the console setting via the front panel. Using the procedures I found online I never could get it to display anything that looked like the code that indicates the console setting. While I was in another room surfing the 'net for more console setting procedures the language code entry screen appeared on the twinax terminal. I'm up to the point of installing licensed internal code now. Well, actually it's initializing one of the disk drives. The eta it's giving for that task alone is two hours. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Dec 5 15:13:48 2014 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:13:48 -0800 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> On 12/04/2014 09:55 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> round 5-pin connector on the slot bracket. It is labeled "Monoputer 2 >> v1.1 (C)Microway,Inc. 1988". > ... I find that 5 pin connector puzzling, though. Are there > no other headers or connectors on the board. A transputer link is normally a > 4 pin header (2 grounds, TxD, RxD) then there's the 3 wire Reset/Error/Analyse > control link. I believe I've seen a board by Parasytec with similar sounding connectors on it. Unfortunately I can't dig up the board at the moment... I think it was an SBus card, and there is a press release floating around the 'Net indicating they supported MS-DOS, Apple, and Sun hosts. From scaron at umich.edu Fri Dec 5 17:03:35 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:03:35 -0500 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board Message-ID: On the back of Roe's question; didn't want to hijack his thread. I was browsing eBay and came across this very unusual looking Unibus card (?) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Memory-Digital-DEC-logo-1216988-board-from-PDP-11-or-VAX-/261685664915 I'm really curious what all those SIP hybrids are running down the one side of the board. I see it's got no less than 8 74181 ALUs so I figure this has got to be some kind of processor? Perhaps a prototype or simply an obscure hop-up processor for Unibus machines similar to some of which were marketed for Q-bus with i.e. MC68k, NS 32k, MIPS CPUs (KN210), etc. I tried to do a little research about i-con on the Web but I'm coming up blank. Anyone know what the heck this thing is? Just curious. Thanks, Sean From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 19:34:30 2014 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 17:34:30 -0800 Subject: hp2K and interex In-Reply-To: <000001d010d2$97f0ed70$c7d2c850$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d010d2$97f0ed70$c7d2c850$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Jay - thanks for posting this CSL info. I've taken the liberty of cross-posting to the HP-DSD Alumni group. We just had a bi-annual reunion in September and there are still quite a few of us left that worked on the 2100/1000/L-Series at HP. Even if the Cupertino site has been squashed by a spaceship. ;-) Lee Courtney On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Jay West wrote: > I did find this entry in the CSL1000 library to be of interest! > > > > BAS200 - HP 2000F BASIC FOR DOS-M/DOS III > > 2001 X172Keywords: 99.5- 10 BASIC > > > > So Hp2000/F was ported to DOS-M/DOS III? Wowsers. > > > > J > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 19:40:39 2014 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 17:40:39 -0800 Subject: HP Interex & HP1000 Contributed Library In-Reply-To: <003601d010d0$06b52080$141f6180$@classiccmp.org> References: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05736B6980@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <003601d010d0$06b52080$141f6180$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Jay, "...I'd be hosting an identical site of the interex organization. Don't wanna step on that landmine." Interex was dead and buried many years ago. No need to worry stepping on anyones toes. Lee C. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Jay West wrote: > A few items of note.... > > Someone said the CSL1000 library shows the files, but the actual FST files > aren't there. > I went to look at this, and the FST files are there, just all zipped up in > a > different stop. > > There is also a directory that isn't shown for some reason - "hold" and > "rtecsl" (separate from the csl1000 folder). > > I strongly suspect that this was due to the fact that I wasn't sure about > copyright/ownership/legality/etc and as such I didn't really structure the > content for public viewing until I was fairly sure it was ok to do so. > > I will have a look-see over the weekend and see if I can clean up the site > but the "missing" content apparently is there just not publicly listed. > > While I'm ok releasing all the files, I'm not sure I should put all the > original HTML back as then I'd be hosting an identical site of the interex > organization. Don't wanna step on that landmine. > > J > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 19:57:38 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:57:38 -0700 Subject: HP9830 memory / was Re: Still looking for Infotek MX-30 RAM In-Reply-To: References: <547E9F69.7030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:26 AM, tony duell wrote: >> Yes. I'm considering putting the mass storage ROM on the I/O slot card >> also (similarly to how the sector buffer works), but since that ROM is >> hard-addressed, that won't actually free up the ROM slot it would >> normally occupy. > > I don't really see the point. Since there has to be memory-mapped RAM on the board anyhow, it's trivial to also have the ROM. It also adds zero components to my design. From dmabry at mich.com Fri Dec 5 19:58:54 2014 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:58:54 -0500 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548262DE.9020505@mich.com> The system you describe is not an MDS-800. Probably an MDS-225 or some variation depending on the options. Looking forward to the photos. drlegendre . said the following on 12/5/2014 7:33 PM: > Hey folks, > > I really need some cash and some space, so it's time for my Intel Intellec > MDS gear to find a new home. I inherited this kit some years ago, and know > almost nothing about it - in fact, I'm even confused as to the correct > model number; 'experts disagree', it's either an MDS-225 or MDS-800. > > It's a large white cube, about 20" on a side, with a CRT, one 8" floppy and > a number of plug-in boards. There is also a blue Intel dual 8" drive, one > seriously heavy-duty keyboard, a few cables and a bevy of 8" floppy discs. > I also have an ICE pod for it, somewhere.. > > It has never been powered-up once since I've had it, though it was > apparently 'working fine' when retired sometime in the early-mid 1990s. > Cosmetics are very good, it's no ugly duckling by any stretch. > > Photos will appear as I'm able to move it to a location with sufficient > light. > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 5 19:59:47 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:59:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board Message-ID: <20141206015947.DBE0718C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sean Caron > I was browsing eBay and came across this very unusual looking Unibus > card Yeah, I was wondering about that too. It looks like it has a ton of memory over on that one side; I was thinking that perhaps it was an EUB memory card with ECC, or something? Anyway, I decided not to mess with it (even if it is pretty cheap - got enough fish to fry on my hands at the moment... :-). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 5 20:01:51 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 18:01:51 -0800 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5482638F.3010800@sydex.com> On 12/05/2014 04:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > It's a large white cube, about 20" on a side, with a CRT, one 8" floppy and > a number of plug-in boards. There is also a blue Intel dual 8" drive, one > seriously heavy-duty keyboard, a few cables and a bevy of 8" floppy discs. > I also have an ICE pod for it, somewhere.. This doesn't sound like an MDS-800 or an MDS-2xx series box. The MDS-800 is quite distinctive. http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/mds-800/mds-800.jpg Has lots of slots and a big PSU. Multibus boards are oriented vertically. The MDS-225 looks like: http://az343058.vo.msecnd.net/productlargeimages/0d1685ce18a54aa78a595f15b977f0cd.jpg Most of which is the CRT; multibus boards oriented horizontally. There was also an MDS-200, which looks like the bottom part of the 225 (no CRT). --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 20:11:46 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 19:11:46 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN In-Reply-To: <5482638F.3010800@sydex.com> References: <5482638F.3010800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/05/2014 04:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> It's a large white cube, about 20" on a side, with a CRT, one 8" floppy >> and >> a number of plug-in boards. There is also a blue Intel dual 8" drive, one >> seriously heavy-duty keyboard, a few cables and a bevy of 8" floppy discs. >> I also have an ICE pod for it, somewhere.. > This doesn't sound like an MDS-800 or an MDS-2xx series box. The description sounds exactly like an MDS-2xx to me. I'd think it most likely to be a Series III, since Series II were usually blue. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 5 20:40:21 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 18:40:21 -0800 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN In-Reply-To: References: <5482638F.3010800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54826C95.6030908@sydex.com> On 12/05/2014 06:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > This doesn't sound like an MDS-800 or an MDS-2xx series box. > > The description sounds exactly like an MDS-2xx to me. I'd think it > most likely to be a Series III, since Series II were usually blue. Okay, my experience doesn't go farther than a Series II. So it's a Series III, probably? A photo would solve that. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 5 21:13:18 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:13:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] > It's not, it's 10**12. You don't get to tell us how we use language any more than anyone else does. Lots of words and phrases have technical meanings in hackish English different from the meanings the same words carry in mainstream English; this is just one more example. (For that matter, if you buy a "4G" stick of RAM, would you be perfectly happy to get one containing no more than 4,000,000,000 bytes? You make it sound as though you would - but I find that doubtful.) Or, of course, you can continue to insist on misunderstanding long-established uses. See the Jargon File entry for `quantifiers' for more. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 21:33:39 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:33:39 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN In-Reply-To: <54826C95.6030908@sydex.com> References: <5482638F.3010800@sydex.com> <54826C95.6030908@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/05/2014 06:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> This doesn't sound like an MDS-800 or an MDS-2xx series box. >> >> The description sounds exactly like an MDS-2xx to me. I'd think it >> most likely to be a Series III, since Series II were usually blue. > > > Okay, my experience doesn't go farther than a Series II. So it's a Series > III, probably? A photo would solve that. A Series III looks exactly like a Series II. The point is that some are blue and some are white, and AFAICT a white one is more likely a Series III. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 21:55:05 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:55:05 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:13 PM, Mouse wrote: >> It's not, it's 10**12. > You don't get to tell us how we use language any more than anyone else > does. Nor any less. NIST, IEC, and ISO will tell you that using SI prefixes for powers of two is wrong. I suspect that Standards Council of Canada will as well, but I haven't looked into it. On the other hand, disk drive vendors will tell you that they define KB, MB, GB, and TB as 10^3, 10^6, 10^9, and 10^12 bytes, respectively. If you buy their 1TB drive expecting to get 1024^4 bytes of storage, you'll be disappointed, and you likely won't have any legal recourse because the vendor puts that definition in all of their marketing literature and on the product packaging. So who is right, disk drive vendors or the standards bodies? It's a de facto vs. de jure distinction. > (For that matter, if you buy a > "4G" stick of RAM, would you be perfectly happy to get one containing > no more than 4,000,000,000 bytes? I make a point of buying 4 GiB DIMMs rather than 4 GB. The gibi prefix (defined as 1024^3) is part of the International System of Quantities (ISQ, ISO/IEC 80000-13:2008). SI ("the metric system"), which defines the decimal prefixes, is also part of ISQ. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Dec 5 22:12:24 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:12:24 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-06 04:13, Mouse wrote: >>> Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] >> It's not, it's 10**12. > > You don't get to tell us how we use language any more than anyone else > does. Lots of words and phrases have technical meanings in hackish > English different from the meanings the same words carry in mainstream > English; this is just one more example. (For that matter, if you buy a > "4G" stick of RAM, would you be perfectly happy to get one containing > no more than 4,000,000,000 bytes? You make it sound as though you > would - but I find that doubtful.) While you have a half point, Mouse, the fact is that for disk capacities, the standard is actually to use K to mean 10^3 and not 2^10, so Fred is absolutely right. > Or, of course, you can continue to insist on misunderstanding > long-established uses. See above. In this case, that is the long-established rule. (The reason have been suggested in the past that disk manufacturers started this odd practice (odd for computers that is) a long time ago since it allowed them to write higher numbers, which looked better for marketing purposes...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 5 22:29:34 2014 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 23:29:34 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141206042934.GA28027@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Peter Corlett once stated: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:05:20PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > [...] > > Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] > > It's not, it's 10**12. Every other use of SI multipliers are powers-of-ten, > and computers are not special little snowflakes entitled to be different. I started with computers in the 80s, and back then, I learned the following: 1K = 2^10 1M = 2^20 1G = 2^30 So that 64K (address space of your typical 8-bit CPU) gave you 65,536 bytes and 16M (a popular 32-bit CPU at the time came with a 24-bit address space, as well as a popular upgraded 16-bit CPU) gave you 16,777,216 bytes and no amount of whining will ever convince me it's 65K and 16.7M of memory. -spc (Why yes, computers are special little snowflakes entitled to be different ... ) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 5 22:35:54 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 23:35:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] >>> It's not, it's 10**12. >> You don't get to tell us how we use language any more than anyone >> else does. [...] > While you have a half point, Mouse, the fact is that for disk > capacities, the standard is actually to use K to mean 10^3 and not > 2^10, so Fred is absolutely right. "The standard"? That disagrees with my experience. I have numerous disks from the days when capacities were several tens of megabytes, or low hundreds of megabytes; they are all labeled accurately. Somewhere around the time of single-digit gigabyte capacities, disk manufacturers started mislabeling their disks. That they were doing so knowing it was an actively misleading practice is evidenced by the notes in ads from that era (and even on some drives), saying things like "based on 1GB = 1 billion bytes", which, if the metric meanings were indeed the standard you seem to be claiming they were, would not have been worth mentioning. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Dec 5 22:44:15 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:44:15 -0600 Subject: The 9406-270 - OS and Other Products Installed Message-ID: <20141206044415.GB25931@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Fans, I made it through an i5 OS install on my 9406-270 plus installed various products. I haven't done much past that other than switching the QCTLSBSD system value from QBASE to QCTL and performing an IPL. I'm now able to perform an unattended IPL and get from power on to a sign-on screen in just under nine minutes. Only one drive came up to choose from during the install process so everything is installed on it. A WRKDSKSTS shows drive 1 at 33% and drive 0 unused. Is it possible to add drive 0 to the system at this point? I'm not sure where to go from here. Some of the things I can think of that I'm sure need to be done at some point: - Learn how to apply PTFs - Create some user profiles - Configure and start TCP/IP - Explore backup options in case I have to reinstall or restore every 69 days. I'd be surprised if the internal tape drive is functional. - Learn all kinds of things I haven't even heard of yet And I'm sure the list goes on and on. I'm open to suggestions. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Dec 5 22:40:41 2014 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 23:40:41 -0500 Subject: hp2K and interex In-Reply-To: <000001d010d2$97f0ed70$c7d2c850$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d010d2$97f0ed70$c7d2c850$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Friday, December 5, 2014 at 15:29, Jay West wrote: > BAS200 - HP 2000F BASIC FOR DOS-M/DOS III > > 2001 X172Keywords: 99.5- 10 BASIC > > So Hp2000/F was ported to DOS-M/DOS III? Wowsers. "Bowser" would be more accurate. ;-) Our small manufacturing company struggled in vain to use this program on DOS-III for a year back in 1975. The problem was that the virtual file system that it used was buggy, and periodically certain files (e.g., user program source files, our payroll data file, etc.) would be corrupted and lost. After reentering programs from listings for about the fourth time, we gave up and bought RTE and RTE BASIC (HP 92101A). (Rather than use native DOS-III files, this BASIC created a virtual TSB file system within a single DOS-III binary data file. So there was no DOS way to copy or back up individual BASIC files -- all you could do was back up the entire blob, but then you couldn't tell if a corruption had occurred until you attempted to run a BASIC program that used the virtual file in question. The failures appeared at random, and we never isolated or were able to reproduce failures on demand, which was very, very aggravating.) -- Dave From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 23:05:43 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 23:05:43 -0600 Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN In-Reply-To: References: <5482638F.3010800@sydex.com> <54826C95.6030908@sydex.com> Message-ID: Here are three _horrible_ flash-photos of some of it. It does seem that this is an MDS-225 Series III from 7/83.. just never bothered to really look it over, or if I did, I simply forgot.. http://nerp.net/~legendre/greenkeys/mds_01.jpg http://nerp.net/~legendre/greenkeys/mds_02.jpg http://nerp.net/~legendre/greenkeys/mds_03.jpg You can see the dual-disc unit in one or two pics. The cosmetic panel that covers the open slots on the front of the main unit is present, but not pictured. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/05/2014 06:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > >> This doesn't sound like an MDS-800 or an MDS-2xx series box. > >> > >> The description sounds exactly like an MDS-2xx to me. I'd think it > >> most likely to be a Series III, since Series II were usually blue. > > > > > > Okay, my experience doesn't go farther than a Series II. So it's a > Series > > III, probably? A photo would solve that. > > A Series III looks exactly like a Series II. The point is that some > are blue and some are white, and AFAICT a white one is more likely a > Series III. > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Dec 5 23:14:55 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:14:55 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <548290CF.9010701@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-06 05:35, Mouse wrote: >>>>> Assuming that 1 terabyte is 2 ** 40 bytes [...] >>>> It's not, it's 10**12. >>> You don't get to tell us how we use language any more than anyone >>> else does. [...] >> While you have a half point, Mouse, the fact is that for disk >> capacities, the standard is actually to use K to mean 10^3 and not >> 2^10, so Fred is absolutely right. > > "The standard"? That disagrees with my experience. I have numerous > disks from the days when capacities were several tens of megabytes, or > low hundreds of megabytes; they are all labeled accurately. Somewhere > around the time of single-digit gigabyte capacities, disk manufacturers > started mislabeling their disks. That they were doing so knowing it > was an actively misleading practice is evidenced by the notes in ads > from that era (and even on some drives), saying things like "based on > 1GB = 1 billion bytes", which, if the metric meanings were indeed the > standard you seem to be claiming they were, would not have been worth > mentioning. Well, since single digit gigabyte disks have been around for at least 20 years now, I think it's safe to say that it now is the "standard". As much as I dislike it, I've come to accept it. And I mentioned it as well, it was a dirty trick to be able to write higher numbers in their marketing... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 5 23:18:36 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 21:18:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20141205210443.O23292@shell.lmi.net> > "based on 1GB = 1 billion bytes" There are even, historically, disputes on what a "billion" is! (a thousand million V a million million) If "kibi", "mebi", "gibi", [what is T?] were to have been introduced half a century earlier, then we wouldn't have this ongoing silly fight! But, does ANYBODY feel that there is any justification for "Megabyte" being calculated as 10^3 * 2^10 ??!? (1024,000) That is what is used, and the only way to come up with a 1.4M floppy being "1.44MB". For those not arithmetic challenged, multiply 80 * 2 * 18 * 512 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 5 23:24:14 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 21:24:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141205211927.R23292@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: > . . . > While you have a half point, Mouse, the fact is that for disk > capacities, the standard is actually to use K to mean 10^3 and not 2^10, > so Fred is absolutely right. How dare you!?! :-) I was not the one who said it, and I haven't been absolutely right about anything in a long time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 6 01:26:12 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 07:26:12 +0000 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <54821C43.2080406@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> , <54821C43.2080406@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > > > No C011 or C012 link adapter chip ? > [inspecting card] > Yes, there is an IMSC012P. OK, that's the interface between the transputer serial links and the ISA bus. A transputer can be set up to boot from a link, that is to download software over a link after reset. So the PC can provide all the software for the transputer. > > > Are there no other headers or connectors on the board. > > There is a 24 pin IDC header. The bush button and the 5-pin connector on > > the bracket are connected to that 24 pin header by a cable. Only 4 out > > of the 24 pins are used. Do you mean that only 4 pins in the socket (on the end of the cable) are wired, or that there are only 4 traces on the PCB going to the header. If the latter then I have no idea why, if the former then I would guess all the transputer links, etc, are on that header and that one of them is brought out to the 5 pin socket on the bracket. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 6 03:01:28 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 10:01:28 +0100 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> , <54821C43.2080406@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5482C5E8.8030708@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 06.12.14 08:26, schrieb tony duell: > Do you mean that only 4 pins in the socket (on the end of the cable) are > wired, or that there are only 4 traces on the PCB going to the header. It looks like all (or most) pins on the header are contacted with traces. There is a 24 pin ribbon cable plunged in, but only 4 wires are used. The other 20 wires are open, not connected and covered with isolating tape. > if the former then I would guess all > the transputer links, etc, are on that header and that one of them is > brought out to the 5 pin socket on the bracket. Thats what I suspect. As said I rescued a Transputer system from that place some years back. It was basically a generic, modular box (For double eurocard like PCBs? Can't remember.) with some sort of "carrier boards" that had INMOS TRAM modules on them. There was no disk or the like. So I suspected there must be some sort of "head" to boot and control that box full of Transputers. It only took some years to show up. :-) p.s.: The TRAM modules and carrier boards went to a Transputer enthusiast and are in good hands. -- tsch??, Jochen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 6 04:45:44 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 10:45:44 -0000 Subject: OT: FTGH HP U320 Disk Caddies Message-ID: <02c001d01141$c9a53be0$5cefb3a0$@ntlworld.com> Not vintage stuff, but I thought I would offer them to the list first. I have three of these caddies, marked 146.8 GB 10K Ultra320 SCSI. You can see one here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-404708-001-146GB-10K-3-5-SCSI-Ultra-320-Hard-Di sk-Drive-in-ProLiant-Caddy-/251350220378 but bear in mind there is no disk, just the caddy. Located in the UK. Regards Rob From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Dec 6 05:11:59 2014 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 03:11:59 -0800 Subject: Parsytec, was Re: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> Message-ID: <5482E47F.8010403@crash.com> Jochen, looks like this is the next version of your board, without the funky 5-pin connectors: http://www.pcputer.com/PCPUTER-History/Transputer-Photos/microway-monoputer On 12/05/2014 01:13 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > > I believe I've seen [an SBus card] by Parasytec with similar sounding > connectors on it. There are a few search hits on Parasytec, but it appears the correct name for the company was _Parsytec_. Headquartered in Aachen, they built several different lines of Transputer-based systems between 1985 and 1994, ranging from 10 to (at least in theory) 16,384 processors. And they did frequently use Sun workstations as host or systems. Here's the page for the board I was thinking of, the "Parsytec BBK-S4 Adapter for SBUS Systems" http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/bbks4.htm More reading: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsytec Geekdot.com: http://www.geekdot.com/parsytec.html Ram's Transputer pages: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer --S. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 6 05:33:18 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:33:18 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141205211927.R23292@shell.lmi.net> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <20141205211927.R23292@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5482E97E.8010401@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-06 06:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> . . . >> While you have a half point, Mouse, the fact is that for disk >> capacities, the standard is actually to use K to mean 10^3 and not 2^10, >> so Fred is absolutely right. > > How dare you!?! :-) > I was not the one who said it, and I haven't been absolutely right about > anything in a long time. :-) My mistake. It was Eric. I'll try to remember not attributing anything absolutely right to you in the future. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 6 07:45:03 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:45:03 +0100 Subject: Parsytec, was Re: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <5482E47F.8010403@crash.com> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> <5482E47F.8010403@crash.com> Message-ID: <5483085F.30805@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 06.12.14 12:11, schrieb Steven M Jones: > Jochen, looks like this is the next version of your board, without the > funky 5-pin connectors: > > > http://www.pcputer.com/PCPUTER-History/Transputer-Photos/microway-monoputer My board looks nearly identical. The pictured board has some sort of breakout board plugged into the 24 pin IDC header. Where on my board there is a ribbon cable pluged in going to the connector and button on the bracket. -- tsch??, Jochen From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Dec 6 07:52:46 2014 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:52:46 +0100 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> Message-ID: <54830A2E.20903@e-bbes.com> On 2014-12-05 22:13, Steven M Jones wrote: > I believe I've seen a board by Parasytec with similar sounding You really think, anybody would call his company "parasytec"? ;-) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Dec 6 08:02:52 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 14:02:52 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 11:35:54PM -0500, Mouse wrote: [...] > "The standard"? That disagrees with my experience. I have numerous disks > from the days when capacities were several tens of megabytes, or low hundreds > of megabytes; they are all labeled accurately. My ratty old tiny disks are all in storage so I can't pull a few out and check the CHS/LBA versus the marked capacity, but I note that When it comes to mere megabytes, 1000**2 and 1024**2 are still close enough for it to be lost in rounding errors. > Somewhere around the time of single-digit gigabyte capacities, disk > manufacturers started mislabeling their disks. That they were doing so > knowing it was an actively misleading practice is evidenced by the notes in > ads from that era (and even on some drives), saying things like "based on 1GB > = 1 billion bytes", which, if the metric meanings were indeed the standard > you seem to be claiming they were, would not have been worth mentioning. Actually, the notes in the ads were added later due to litigious bastards and other chancers claiming that they believed it to mean powers-of-two and making a nuisance of themselves in court. This power-of-two confusion is an artifact of how solid-state memory devices are made, and does not apply to everything vaguely related to computers. Otherwise one could try and argue that a "dozen eggs" should contain 13 eggs because bakers add an extra loaf to a batch as an artifact of the bread-making process. Consider also the infamous 1.44MB disk. That number comes from 1440 * 1024, so apparently a megabyte is *also* 1,024,000 bytes. If we can humpty-dumpty it and pluck numbers out of the air, why not just call a megabyte 3,141,592 bytes? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Dec 6 08:10:24 2014 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 15:10:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP Interex & HP1000 Contributed Library In-Reply-To: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> References: <009601d010b9$2740d9a0$75c28ce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Jay West wrote: > This content is all at http://www.classiccmp.org/interex > > There are two folders: One is the proceedings, slideshows, etc. of all the > HP Interex meetings and the other is the entire HP CSL for HP1000. This is great! At least someone who misses the CSL as I do. > As usual, please do not rape the content. If you need more than a few files > here and there please contact me off-list to arrange a hard drive swap, etc. I have a mirror of the RTE CSL part online for over seven years now, you can find it here: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/rtecsl/ with the index page at: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/rtecsl/www.interex.org/tech/csl/RTE/index.html I hadn't publicly announced the location because I wasn't sure about the status of Interex or its contents. But apparently, it's ok now. Christian From scaron at umich.edu Sat Dec 6 09:24:21 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 10:24:21 -0500 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <54830A2E.20903@e-bbes.com> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> <54830A2E.20903@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Maybe if they were selling anthelmintic products? Ha ha ha ;) Best, Sean On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:52 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2014-12-05 22:13, Steven M Jones wrote: > > I believe I've seen a board by Parasytec with similar sounding >> > > You really think, anybody would call his company "parasytec"? > ;-) > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 6 12:26:56 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 18:26:56 -0000 Subject: Acceptable Ripple Message-ID: <032c01d01182$3732a130$a597e390$@ntlworld.com> Just checking a PSU in a MicroVAX 3100 Model 80. I am measuring about 10mV ripple on the 5V supply and 20mV ripple on the 12V supply. Does that seem reasonable? I am not sure if it is a scope artefact, but there appear to be large spikes at the top and bottom of each sawtooth. The machine appears to partially work, it seems to be getting some errors during the memory test, but I don't know if that is the spikes I am seeing or just a bad component somewhere. Regards Rob From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 6 12:48:16 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 19:48:16 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-06 15:02, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 11:35:54PM -0500, Mouse wrote: > [...] >> "The standard"? That disagrees with my experience. I have numerous disks >> from the days when capacities were several tens of megabytes, or low hundreds >> of megabytes; they are all labeled accurately. > > My ratty old tiny disks are all in storage so I can't pull a few out and check > the CHS/LBA versus the marked capacity, but I note that When it comes to mere > megabytes, 1000**2 and 1024**2 are still close enough for it to be lost in > rounding errors. For megabytes, the difference isn't that big, true. When you get to gigabytes it starts becoming significant, and when we talk terabytes, if definitely more than a rounding error. For one terabyte, the difference is close to 10 gigabytes... (For one meg, the difference is 48K). >> Somewhere around the time of single-digit gigabyte capacities, disk >> manufacturers started mislabeling their disks. That they were doing so >> knowing it was an actively misleading practice is evidenced by the notes in >> ads from that era (and even on some drives), saying things like "based on 1GB >> = 1 billion bytes", which, if the metric meanings were indeed the standard >> you seem to be claiming they were, would not have been worth mentioning. > > Actually, the notes in the ads were added later due to litigious bastards and > other chancers claiming that they believed it to mean powers-of-two and making > a nuisance of themselves in court. Once upon a time, disks actually were also given their size in powers of two, so no, I'm pretty sure you are wrong about the order of things. That would would have thought the size were in powers of two were natural. At some point, some clever marketing people realized that if they changes to actually use the power of ten prefixes instead, they could inflate their numbers, and fool those poor suckers who still thought the numbers were powers of two. Thus upping one on their competitors as well. Of course, it didn't take long for the competitors to just copy that idea, and there we are today... > This power-of-two confusion is an artifact of how solid-state memory devices > are made, and does not apply to everything vaguely related to computers. > Otherwise one could try and argue that a "dozen eggs" should contain 13 eggs > because bakers add an extra loaf to a batch as an artifact of the bread-making > process. Uh... Not sure where the eggs enter into my computer, though... The power-of-two issue is not because of how solid state disks work, but how computers work. In general, you *always* means things in powers of two in computers. The exception nowadays being disks. But main memory, cache, speeds, are all measured in powers of two. Actually, I should say, everything related to data. Anything that originates with a bit. Frequencies are not power of twos, for instance. > Consider also the infamous 1.44MB disk. That number comes from 1440 * 1024, so > apparently a megabyte is *also* 1,024,000 bytes. If we can humpty-dumpty it > and pluck numbers out of the air, why not just call a megabyte 3,141,592 bytes? Actually, the 1.44MB floppy holds 1,474,560 bytes. 512 bytes per sector, 18 sectors per track, 80 tracks per side, and two sides... Where did you pull the 1440*1024 from??? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 6 12:54:18 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 19:54:18 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <548350DA.2080705@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-06 19:48, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-06 15:02, Peter Corlett wrote: >> Consider also the infamous 1.44MB disk. That number comes from 1440 * >> 1024, so >> apparently a megabyte is *also* 1,024,000 bytes. If we can >> humpty-dumpty it >> and pluck numbers out of the air, why not just call a megabyte >> 3,141,592 bytes? > > Actually, the 1.44MB floppy holds 1,474,560 bytes. > 512 bytes per sector, 18 sectors per track, 80 tracks per side, and two > sides... Where did you pull the 1440*1024 from??? I should actually do my math before commenting. :-) It just happens, that by a funny accident, 1440*1024 is actually 1,474,560. But still. The actual size of the floppy wasn't decided because you pulled out 1440*1024, but because of the format of the darn thing. 1.44MB is just the closest "nice" number you can come up with after the fact as a way to talk about the capacity of the thing. It is not an exact number, but they seldom are, when we talk about storage. People like to round things off, to make it easier to talk about. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 6 13:26:58 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 11:26:58 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54835882.2040409@sydex.com> On 12/06/2014 10:48 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Actually, the 1.44MB floppy holds 1,474,560 bytes. > 512 bytes per sector, 18 sectors per track, 80 tracks per side, and two > sides... Where did you pull the 1440*1024 from??? These are primarily PC distinctions. The HD 3.5" disk is sold with a nominal raw capacity of 2.0MB. In other words, if you assume a 300 RPM spindle speed and 500KHz clock, a track will hold about 12,500 bytes using MFM. Drives are specified for 80 (double-sided) cylidners, so you get exactly 2,000,000 unformatted bytes on a disk. So far so good. But a "360K" 5.25" disk is formatted in PC terms as tracks of 9 sectors of 512 bytes or 720 sectors total or exactly 360 * 1024 bytes. So far so good. Now, if we extend this to the "1.2MB" disk with 15 sectors of 512 bytes per track, we run into a problem. Counting only one side, we have 15*512*80 = 600,000 bytes. Making this double-sided is 1,200 * 1024, which was 1.2 * 1,000 * 1024--a mongrel. I prefer to call this 1200K--and it's 3.5" cousing 1440K--and indeed some Microsoft utilities access this--but the world is what it is. The drive, btw, is no more 1.44MB than is the format. Various manufacturers have placed more or less on the floppies, dependent on format and spindle speed. I take hard drive capacities as stated as more-or-less; not exact. It's been the case since the manufacturers started putting printed defect maps on the drives. FWIW, sectors sizes of other than powers-of-two have been well-known for a long time. CDC Cyber used 644 6-bit characters The Zilog development system employed 132 bytes per sector on 8" floppies. Older decimal-based machines often used sector lengths that were a multiple of 10. --Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 6 13:38:47 2014 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 19:38:47 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54835B47.2010409@ntlworld.com> On 06/12/14 18:48, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Actually, I should say, everything related to data. Anything that > originates with a bit. > > Frequencies are not power of twos, for instance. Network speeds are not powers of two either. Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 6 13:51:10 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 11:51:10 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54835882.2040409@sydex.com> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> <54835882.2040409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54835E2E.7050300@sydex.com> On 12/06/2014 11:26 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: Finger-brain disconnect: Should be: > Now, if we extend this to the "1.2MB" disk with 15 sectors of 512 bytes > per track, we run into a problem. Counting only one side, we have > 15*512*80 = 600 * 1024 bytes. Making this double-sided is 1,200 * 1024, > which was 1.2 * 1,000 * 1024--a mongrel. I prefer to call this > 1200K--and it's 3.5" cousing 1440K--and indeed some Microsoft utilities > access this--but the world is what it is. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 6 14:38:28 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:38:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141206121058.Q30280@shell.lmi.net> > > Consider also the infamous 1.44MB disk. That number comes from 1440 * 1024, so > > apparently a megabyte is *also* 1,024,000 bytes. If we can humpty-dumpty it > > and pluck numbers out of the air, why not just call a megabyte 3,141,592 bytes? On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Actually, the 1.44MB floppy holds 1,474,560 bytes. > 512 bytes per sector, 18 sectors per track, 80 tracks per side, and two > sides... Where did you pull the 1440*1024 from??? 1,474,560 IS, indeed 1440 * 1024 If you use powers of 10, it would be 1.47 M. If you use powers of 2, it would be 1.40624 M. SO, how did they get "1.44 M"? (rhetorical question; don't you hate rhetorical questions?) In order to get "1.44", they stated that it was 1440 Kilobytes, (where "kilobyte" was the traditional COMPUTER meaning of 1024. Then they divided 1440 by 1000, to get 1.44. They defined "Megabyte" to be 1000 kilobytes (1024)! Therefore, they divided by 1024 AND divided by 1000. You can make a case for powers of 10; you can make a case for powers of 2; it takes marketing assholes to mix them. If you round to "1.4 M", then at least it doesn't pin the needle on the bogusimeter. The ST506, when formatted with 512 byte sectors, was 306 * 2 * 17 * 512 for 5326848 5326Ksi 5202Kibi 5.33Msi 5.08007815Mebi The ST412, when formatted with 512 byte sectors, was 306 * 4 * 17 * 512 for 10653696 10653Ksi 10404Kibi 10.4 Msi 10.16015625 Mebi In those days, the rounding wasn't a big problem, and either set of units would do. NOTE: In contrast with modern marketing, Seagate did NOT try to "maximize" the numbers by changing units nor using extraneous "significant" digits. They called the 506 a "5 Megabyte drive", NOT "5.33" nor "5.08". They called the 412 a "10 Megabyte drive", NOT "10.4" nor "10.16". 'course part of that was the higher prevalence of bad sectors. If'n you buy a "10.4 Megabyte" drive and it ends up formatting to 10.2 (due to some bad sectors), you gripe about the quality. OTOH, if you buy a "10 Megabyte drive", and it formats to 10.2, then you brag to all of your friends about what a great drive you got. (and Seagate gets a better reputation) [for some value of indeterminate "you", not speaking to Eric or Tony] -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 6 14:40:13 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:40:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <548350DA.2080705@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> <548350DA.2080705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141206123857.K30280@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I should actually do my math before commenting. :-) > It just happens, that by a funny accident, 1440*1024 is actually 1,474,560. > > But still. The actual size of the floppy wasn't decided because you > pulled out 1440*1024, but because of the format of the darn thing. > 1.44MB is just the closest "nice" number you can come up with after the > fact as a way to talk about the capacity of the thing. > > It is not an exact number, but they seldom are, when we talk about > storage. People like to round things off, to make it easier to talk about. It is NOT a "nice" number. Honest numbers would be either 1.47 or 1.4 There is no legitimate way to come up with 1.44 unless you cheat and MIX powers of 10 and powers of 2. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 6 14:46:35 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:46:35 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141206121058.Q30280@shell.lmi.net> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se>,<20141206121058.Q30280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > NOTE: In contrast with modern marketing, Seagate did NOT try to > "maximize" the numbers by changing units nor using extraneous > "significant" digits. > They called the 506 a "5 Megabyte drive", NOT "5.33" nor "5.08". > They called the 412 a "10 Megabyte drive", NOT "10.4" nor "10.16". I believe the last 2 digits of those model numbers was the unformatted capacity in some flavour of megabytes. As well as the ST412 (which had 2 platters, 4 heads), there were the less common ST406 (one platter, 2 heads) and ST419 (3 platters, 6 heads). I guess it was a bit over 6 megabyes per platter, so by the time you had 3 of them it rounded to 19 megabytes unformatted. The ST406 and ST419 were used in the HP9133V and 9133XV respectively where the suffix letters helpfully give the formatted capacity in roman numerals. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 6 14:48:01 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:48:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54835882.2040409@sydex.com> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> <54835882.2040409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141206124136.R30280@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > These are primarily PC distinctions. The HD 3.5" disk is sold with a > nominal raw capacity of 2.0MB. In other words, if you assume a 300 RPM Yes, we are talking about "formatted capacity" with a very arbitrary format. Q: which manufacturer called their 2.8M drive "4M", and quoted the unformatted capacity? > But a "360K" 5.25" disk is formatted in PC terms as tracks of 9 sectors > of 512 bytes or 720 sectors total or exactly 360 * 1024 bytes. So far > so good. . . . and, of course, other choices of format parameters, even sticking with MFM, can lead to 300K to 440K. "360K" became a relatively unambiguous way to describe it, so long as one acknowledges that that is in terms of the most prevalent format in use. > I take hard drive capacities as stated as more-or-less; not exact. It's > been the case since the manufacturers started putting printed defect > maps on the drives. It was always interesting to note that FDISK used Mebibytes, wheras other utilities in the same OS used 1,000,000, or even the bizarre 1,024,000 From pinball at telus.net Sat Dec 6 14:58:48 2014 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:58:48 -0800 Subject: Acceptable Ripple In-Reply-To: <032c01d01182$3732a130$a597e390$@ntlworld.com> References: <032c01d01182$3732a130$a597e390$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54836E08.1030609@telus.net> On 12/06/2014, 10:26 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Just checking a PSU in a MicroVAX 3100 Model 80. I am measuring about 10mV > ripple on the 5V supply and 20mV ripple on the 12V supply. Does that seem > reasonable? > > > > I am not sure if it is a scope artefact, but there appear to be large spikes > at the top and bottom of each sawtooth. The machine appears to partially > work, it seems to be getting some errors during the memory test, but I don't > know if that is the spikes I am seeing or just a bad component somewhere. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > TTL Logic is notorious for creating spikes, so you may have some (many?) bad 0.1ufd (or 0.01ufd) caps on the logic bus. typically there is one 0.1ufd cap per TTL device. Check any tantalums too if present on the bus. The 'rules' from Don Lancaster most excellent book "TTL Cookbook" are: (quote) Here is a list of rules for capacitor placement. But the cardinal rule is this: Use enough for your needs - and then add some more! Use one 0.01 - 0.1uf short-leaded disc capacitor for every four gate packages. Use one 0.01 - 0.1uf short-leaded disc capacitor for every two MSI packages (Medium Scale Integration). Use a separate 0.01 - 0.1uf short-leaded disc capacitor for every package separated more then 3 inches from the nearest bypass capacitor. Use a 10uf - 6 volt tantalum capcitorwhere the +5V Line leaves the circuit board. (end quote). John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 6 15:17:38 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 13:17:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se>,<20141206121058.Q30280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20141206130603.T30280@shell.lmi.net> > > NOTE: In contrast with modern marketing, Seagate did NOT try to > "maximize" the numbers by changing units nor using extraneous > "significant" digits. > They called the 506 a "5 Megabyte drive", NOT "5.33" nor "5.08". > They called the 412 a "10 Megabyte drive", NOT "10.4" nor "10.16". On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote: > I believe the last 2 digits of those model numbers was the unformatted > capacity in some flavour of megabytes. As well as the ST412 (which had 2 > platters, 4 heads), there were the less common ST406 (one platter, 2 > heads) and ST419 (3 platters, 6 heads). I guess it was a bit over 6 > megabyes per platter, so by the time you had 3 of them it rounded to 19 > megabytes unformatted. The ST406 and ST419 were used in the HP9133V and > 9133XV respectively where the suffix letters helpfully give the > formatted capacity in roman numerals. Seagate was generally very good about providing the unformatted capacity, as well as the formatted capacity ROUNDED DOWN. They were even cooperative about publishing the drive geometry. Even unformatted capacity is potentially ambiguous. In addition to the basic geometry (number of heads and cylinders), it can further depend on the spindle speed (function of the drive) the data transfer rate (function of the controller), and encoding (function of the controller). NEC, for instance ran their 3.5"HD disk at 360RPM, when almost everybody else was using 300 RPM. For floppies, there was encoding of FM, MFM, GCR, and a few others. For a while, there were "RLL hard drives", which could be used as MFM with good reliability, but corresponding lower capacity. And there were always a few power lusers who would attempt to use MFM drives as RLL, and declare them "perfectly usable" if there were not immediate failures (much like Spinrite restoring to use sectors that had been demonstrated to be unreliable, if they passed one test). Comparing drive capacities reliably required either knowing ALL of the parameters, or making assumptions of some of them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Dec 6 15:02:04 2014 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 16:02:04 -0500 Subject: Jumper settings for Shugart 810 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: <1341806784.3423187.1417473920165.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106136.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1341806784.3423187.1417473920165.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106136.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20141206210204.GA16810@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 10:45:20PM +0000, Dave wrote: > Hi All, > I have a couple of Shugart 810 drives I'd like to get working with an > OSI system.? > I found some manuals online, but they don't seem to have the jumper info. > In case you haven't found it by now the bitsavers manual seems to have jumper information. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 6 16:36:54 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 17:36:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201412062236.RAA06945@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > For one terabyte, the difference is close to 10 gigabytes... > (For one meg, the difference is 48K). The rough-approximation estimates I usually use are 2.5%, 5%, 7%, 10% for K, M, G, T. (The precise values depend on whether you're talking about the amount by which the metric values fall short of the binary values or the amount by which the binary values exceed the metric values. But even for TB that's 9.95+% vs 9.05+%, not a huge difference.) >> Actually, the notes in the ads were added later due to litigious >> bastards and other chancers claiming that they believed it to mean >> powers-of-two and making a nuisance of themselves in court. Such a claim would not have been plausible enough to get anything but a summary judgement for the defendant, with costs, if there hadn't, at the time, been well-established power-of-two meanings. And at least one manufacturer outright lied to me about it. Back when Zip disks came out, they were sold as 100MB. They were actually 96MB (bang on the nose, too - 196608 sectors, not 96.026+MB or any such). I had occasion to call iOmega for something else related to Zip disks and asked them where the other 4MB went, not because I didn't know but because I was curious what they'd say. They told me the 100MB was unformatted capacity. Even then, 4% formatting overhead seemed unrealistically low to me, and a techie who once worked for them and knew the low-level details later confirmed to me that the formatting overhead was more like 20 to 30 percent. I didn't call them on it; I couldn't see any good result from doing that. But that they had the lie prepared and had primed their front-line phone people with it made it clear to me that (a) it _was_ a lie and (b) they knew the truth would not go over well. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 6 17:35:32 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 15:35:32 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <201412062236.RAA06945@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> <201412062236.RAA06945@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <548392C4.2000802@sydex.com> On 12/06/2014 02:36 PM, Mouse wrote: > > And at least one manufacturer outright lied to me about it. Back when > Zip disks came out, they were sold as 100MB. They were actually 96MB > (bang on the nose, too - 196608 sectors, not 96.026+MB or any such). I > had occasion to call iOmega for something else related to Zip disks and > asked them where the other 4MB went, not because I didn't know but > because I was curious what they'd say. I dunno--if you go by the 1MB = 10**6 bytes, it's pretty accurate for both the 100 (100663296 bytes) and the 250 (250640384 bytes). Reminds me of the old Python sketch about "Anything Goes"... --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Dec 6 18:36:15 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 19:36:15 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1917A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1917A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5483A0FF.1070906@compsys.to> >Rich Alderson wrote: >From: Jerome H. Fine >Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 3:05 PM > >>>tony duell wrote: >>> >>>>Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? >>>> >>>All that were ever made? >>> >>If I remember correctly, a TU-58 tape holds 512 blocks of 512 bytes >>or 262,144 bytes in total or 2 ** 18 bytes >> >Jerome, "DECtape" without a following "II" refers to *real* DECtape, the >3/4" medium used on DEC's 555, TU-55 and TU-56 DECtape drives. These were >formatted with 578 blocks of 256 18-bit words (even for the PDP-11, which >ignored bits 0 and 1) or 1102 blocks of 129 12-bit words (= 86 18-bit words) >depending on which architecture the drives were connected to. > >These were 4" reels, not cassettes. > If my arithmetic is still correct, all of the effective capacities of the DECtape usage were less than 300,000 bytes. Please correct me if I am wrong. And regardless of all of the questions AND INTERPRETATIONS of the actual capacity of a one terabyte drive, the final capacity of a such a drive after a Low Level Format would be over 3 million tapes or the same answer I gave last time. Since the TU-55 tape has only about 13% more capacity than a TU-58 tape, that answer was expected. Note that I assume ABOUT 25% reduction in capacity between the unformatted and formatted drive. So again, it seems likely (probably more so for DECtape) that DEC produced less than 3 million tapes which means that Tony Duell's answer is correct. As for all the chatter that I seemed to have produced over terabyte = 2 ** 40 and terabyte = 10 ** 12 at least I defined my assumption and everyone knew the standard being used. As for the reason for the different standards, even they are a trivial aspect of the marketing lies which are often used to hype and market hardware and software. So I suggest that we all just accept that both of the standards are valid as long as they are clearly defined since at present memory and hard drives seem to use different definitions that have been accepted for a number of years. I would point out that one reason that memory may have stayed with 2 ** 30 is that memory is usually produced and sold in multiples of 2 ** 30 these days whereas hard drives are all over the map and almost never such a simple multiple. Please don't use the previous paragraph to start the conflict all over again. Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 6 20:02:12 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 21:02:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <548392C4.2000802@sydex.com> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> <201412062236.RAA06945@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <548392C4.2000802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201412070202.VAA19417@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Back when Zip disks came out, they were sold as 100MB. They were >> actually 96MB [...]. I had occasion to call iOmega for something >> else related to Zip disks and asked them where the other 4MB went, >> not because I didn't know but because I was curious what they'd say. > I dunno--if you go by the 1MB = 10**6 bytes, it's pretty accurate > [...] Well, yes; I knew that was "where the 4MB went". I was curious whether they would try to "correct" the 96M figure or what...and it turned out to be "what". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 6 20:55:29 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 21:55:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) Message-ID: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerome H. Fine > I would point out that one reason that memory may have stayed with 2 ** > 30 is that memory is usually produced and sold in multiples of 2 ** 30 > these days Main memory has pretty much _always_ been sold in blocks that were exact powers of two, for obvious reasons (at least, powers of two of the word size of the machine in question)... (Although occasionally, back when, one used to see things that were 1.5 times a power of two, e.g. on a 16-bit machine, 12KB, 96KB, etc - physical and cost constraints tended to produce those. I don't recall the last time I saw something that wasn't a power of two - probably those 96KB jobs.) With disk drives, on the other hand, one can get all sorts of arbitrary sizes, produced by the number of cylinders, numbers of heads, etc, etc. Noel From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Dec 6 21:13:43 2014 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 19:13:43 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <002001d011cb$cea04e70$6be0eb50$@comcast.net> Several early IBM computers used decimal addressing; the IBM 1401 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA is an example. I think is has 16,000 locations. If BCD addressing had won out there would not be a problem with disk vs RAM capacity. Michael -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 6:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) Main memory has pretty much _always_ been sold in blocks that were exact powers of two, for obvious reasons (at least, powers of two of the word size of the machine in question)... (Although occasionally, back when, one used to see things that were 1.5 times a power of two, e.g. on a 16-bit machine, 12KB, 96KB, etc - physical and cost constraints tended to produce those. I don't recall the last time I saw something that wasn't a power of two - probably those 96KB jobs.) With disk drives, on the other hand, one can get all sorts of arbitrary sizes, produced by the number of cylinders, numbers of heads, etc, etc. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 6 22:20:56 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 20:20:56 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5483D5A8.4050601@sydex.com> On 12/06/2014 06:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jerome H. Fine > > > I would point out that one reason that memory may have stayed with 2 ** > > 30 is that memory is usually produced and sold in multiples of 2 ** 30 > > these days > > Main memory has pretty much _always_ been sold in blocks that were exact > powers of two, for obvious reasons (at least, powers of two of the word size > of the machine in question)... Let's see; IBM 1620--basic memory size=20,000 digits, increments of 20,000 digits up to 60,000. IBM 705, 7080,... What is curious is the marketing numbers used for the memory size. 65K, 131K, etc. I believe IBM was guilty of this in their S/360 marketing literature. The numbers sound bigger. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 6 23:40:49 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 06:40:49 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54835B47.2010409@ntlworld.com> References: <54823A30.5030200@compsys.to> <20141206000905.GA847488@mooli.org.uk> <201412060313.WAA04721@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54828228.10103@update.uu.se> <201412060435.XAA17176@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141206140252.GA855173@mooli.org.uk> <54834F70.8050105@update.uu.se> <54835B47.2010409@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5483E861.30506@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-06 20:38, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 06/12/14 18:48, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Actually, I should say, everything related to data. Anything that >> originates with a bit. >> >> Frequencies are not power of twos, for instance. > > Network speeds are not powers of two either. Ouch, got me. I was thinking of network speeds, and for a moment when composing I got the idea that they were. Of course, they are not. So it's only storage that naturally lends itself to powers of two, except of course that disks don't. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 7 03:34:25 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 10:34:25 +0100 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <54841F21.6000008@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 04.12.14 22:16, schrieb Jochen Kunz: > I want this to go into good hands Thanks for your interest and help. The stuff has found a new owner. A real Transputer enthusiast who will take proper care of this. -- tsch??, Jochen From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 7 07:22:01 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 08:22:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141207132201.B5BC418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, all, I'm trying to fix a broken MSV11-L card (M8059-KF). The symptom is that it always reads back with the 020 bit set, but otherwise appears to be fine. (E.g. you can write a number in 0, and a different number in 020, and each reads back OK, with the exception that the 020 bit in each is always set; i.e. the addressing is working fine, as is the QBUS generally.) So poking around with my 'scope, I find that the latched D04 signal ("LAT D04 H") is always around 2V - not good! From the prints: http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/MSV11-L/MSV11-L%20FMPS%20MP01238%20(M8059)%20part-2.tif it appears to be generated on page 6 of the prints (page 10 of that file), as the wired-or output of two octal 3-state-output latches (E57 and E64, an 'LS373 and an 'S373 respectively). The only place it appears to go is to the quad bus transceiver (E62, an 8641), on page 2. My question is: any guesses as to which of the three is causing this? Or do I just have to start replacing them until I find the guilty party? :-) If so, what's the best order to do so in? FWIW, the two octal latches are both TI Malaysia parts (date code 8231), and the transceiver is a Motorola (date code 8249). Thanks in advance for any help! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 7 07:38:50 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 08:38:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> PS: When buying replacement chips, since many are NOS, which manufacturers should be avoided, and which are good? I recall there was some discussion on here a while back about the topic of which vendors seemed to have the most problems with chips failing, but I can't find it (and a bit of Google searching couldn't turn up anything on the topic - all my searches turned up too much other stuff). And should I always install the replacements in sockets, or is it OK to just go ahead and solder them straight in? (The socket obviously doesn't cost much, and I'm less likely to damage the chip installing it like that, and of course if I get it in and it's U/S, it's easy to swap out from a socket, but I'm wondering if the use of a socket has any downside, electrically.) Again, thanks for any advice (and I won't be surprised if the last starts the usual debate... :-) Noel From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 7 09:32:46 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 10:32:46 -0500 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Something like a 74LS373, that's still in production and commonly available; you can get it from Jameco, Digi-Key, Mouser, etc. I don't think there's really any difference in quality between manufacturers these days... if you go to Jameco the manufacturer is often "TBD" anyway, LOL. I would replace all with "LS" parts, don't bother trying to find an exact replacement for that 74S part. Some people really like to put a socket in when they replace an IC. I suppose people figure if it failed once it could fail again, and of course you want to limit the amount soldering/desoldering so you don't damage the board... I think it's really personal preference; I think the MTBF on whatever IC you've replaced is going to be pretty high... if you do go ahead and put a socket in there, be sure to check vertical clearance and also I think it's worth spending the extra pennies for a nice turned-pin socket... much nicer than the stamped-pin sockets and they'll hold up better over the long run. Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > PS: When buying replacement chips, since many are NOS, which manufacturers > should be avoided, and which are good? I recall there was some discussion > on > here a while back about the topic of which vendors seemed to have the most > problems with chips failing, but I can't find it (and a bit of Google > searching couldn't turn up anything on the topic - all my searches turned > up > too much other stuff). > > And should I always install the replacements in sockets, or is it OK to > just > go ahead and solder them straight in? (The socket obviously doesn't cost > much, and I'm less likely to damage the chip installing it like that, and > of > course if I get it in and it's U/S, it's easy to swap out from a socket, > but > I'm wondering if the use of a socket has any downside, electrically.) > > Again, thanks for any advice (and I won't be surprised if the last starts > the usual debate... :-) > > Noel > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 7 11:10:59 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:10:59 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <5483D5A8.4050601@sydex.com> References: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5483D5A8.4050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54848A23.6020103@pico-systems.com> On 12/06/2014 10:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/06/2014 06:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Jerome H. Fine >> >> > I would point out that one reason that memory may >> have stayed with 2 ** >> > 30 is that memory is usually produced and sold in >> multiples of 2 ** 30 >> > these days >> >> Main memory has pretty much _always_ been sold in blocks >> that were exact >> powers of two, for obvious reasons (at least, powers of >> two of the word size >> of the machine in question)... > > Let's see; IBM 1620--basic memory size=20,000 digits, > increments of 20,000 digits up to 60,000. IBM 705, 7080,... > > What is curious is the marketing numbers used for the > memory size. 65K, 131K, etc. I believe IBM was guilty of > this in their S/360 marketing literature. > Say, this brings up a question I've always wondered about. On the emulation microcode for the 360 series that ran decimal machine code, such as the 1401, did they translate every address from decimal to binary before accessing the memory, or did they just use the bare BCD address, leaving little and big holes all over the binary address space? Obviously, the translation to binary would take up a lot of time, and on machines with enough memory it didn't make so much difference. But, the holes all over would play hob with channels accessing the memory. But, at least the 1401 series apparently had I/O buffers at fixed memory addresses, so maybe that wasn't such a big deal. Anybody know? Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 7 11:14:35 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: <20141207132201.B5BC418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141207132201.B5BC418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54848AFB.1060502@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2014 07:22 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Hi, all, I'm trying to fix a broken MSV11-L card (M8059-KF). The symptom is > that it always reads back with the 020 bit set, but otherwise appears to be > fine. (E.g. you can write a number in 0, and a different number in 020, and > each reads back OK, with the exception that the 020 bit in each is always > set; i.e. the addressing is working fine, as is the QBUS generally.) > > So poking around with my 'scope, I find that the latched D04 signal ("LAT D04 > H") is always around 2V - not good! From the prints: > > Power the system off for 10 minutes, then power on and read various locations. If data bit 4 shows 1's and 0's, then the reading is OK, and it is the writing path that is stuck. I think this may be the case, as you say the bit is stuck when you scope it, I assume when writing to the memory. That may narrow down which chip is the culprit. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 7 11:16:34 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:16:34 -0600 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: References: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54848B72.7030303@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2014 09:32 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Something like a 74LS373, that's still in production and commonly > available; you can get it from Jameco, Digi-Key, Mouser, etc. I don't think > there's really any difference in quality between manufacturers these > days... if you go to Jameco the manufacturer is often "TBD" anyway, LOL. > > I would replace all with "LS" parts, don't bother trying to find an exact > replacement for that 74S part. > > If they use a 74S part there, there is probably a timing reason, S is at least 5 ns faster than LS, sometimes even 10 ns. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 7 11:25:35 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 12:25:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141207172535.8FFC218C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > Power the system off for 10 minutes, then power on and read various > locations. If data bit 4 shows 1's and 0's, then the reading is OK, and > it is the writing path that is stuck. I'm not sure this will work, as the anomalous voltage I see (2V) is after the output (i.e. to the QBUS) data latches, but before the bus transceiver: i.e. in the output (reading) path. So I know it's the output data path that has a problem, not the input. The only question is which of three chips on the output data path might be the cause of the problem; one of the two three-state latches (one for memory data, one for CSR data), or the bus transceiver. As far as I can tell, those are the only three devices attached to that conductor (where I see the constant 2V). Noel From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu Sun Dec 7 11:59:37 2014 From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 11:59:37 -0600 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: <20141207172535.8FFC218C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141207172535.8FFC218C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54849589.6060805@email.wustl.edu> On 12/07/2014 11:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > Power the system off for 10 minutes, then power on and read various > > locations. If data bit 4 shows 1's and 0's, then the reading is OK, and > > it is the writing path that is stuck. > > I'm not sure this will work, as the anomalous voltage I see (2V) is after the > output (i.e. to the QBUS) data latches, but before the bus transceiver: i.e. > in the output (reading) path. So I know it's the output data path that has a > problem, not the input. Output from the memory chips? Well, then, you may have to replace them all, as one chip may be jamming the bus. Do any of the affected driver chips run hotter than the others? That's the "finger test", you replace any anomalously hot chips first, then replace any others that are tied to lines with bad TTL levels, then you have to go to serious debugging methods. > The only question is which of three chips on the output data path might be > the cause of the problem; one of the two three-state latches (one for memory > data, one for CSR data), or the bus transceiver. As far as I can tell, those > are the only three devices attached to that conductor (where I see the > constant 2V). > The 2V level sounds like maybe NO chip is driving that node. A shorted output (or input) would likely pull one way or the other, 2V is about the resting point of a TTL input. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 7 12:49:30 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 13:49:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141207184930.EF80B18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson >> the anomalous voltage I see (2V) is after the output (i.e. to the >> QBUS) data latches, but before the bus transceiver > Output from the memory chips? Well, then, you may have to replace them > all, as one chip may be jamming the bus. No, "after the output .. data latches", which are between the memory chips and the bus transceiver. > Do any of the affected driver chips run hotter than the others? That's > the "finger test", you replace any anomalously hot chips first That's a useful idea, thanks, I'll try that. > The 2V level sounds like maybe NO chip is driving that node. A shorted > output (or input) would likely pull one way or the other, 2V is about > the resting point of a TTL input. Ah, more useful info. The way the two output data laches are wired, the output control on one is wired with the negation of the output control on the other, so one or the other ought to be trying to drive the line at all times. So perhaps the one that _should_ be driving the line normally is the bad one, then (since it's clearly not...) Thanks for the tip! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 7 13:43:13 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 14:43:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141207194313.E067518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> From: Jon Elson >> The 2V level sounds like maybe NO chip is driving that node. A shorted >> output (or input) would likely pull one way or the other, 2V is about >> the resting point of a TTL input. > The way the two output data laches are wired, the output control on one > is wired with the negation of the output control on the other, so one > or the other ought to be trying to drive the line at all times. So > perhaps the one that _should_ be driving the line normally is the bad > one, then After thinking about this tip for a few minutes, it dawned on me that there's a simple way to see if the data latch is bad: read the CSR! That will try and drive that line from the other latch. So I did, and ... I can read 0 from that bit in the CSR! So it's the data latch that's bad. Thanks for the tip! Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:44:41 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 19:44:41 +0000 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > And should I always install the replacements in sockets, or is it OK to just > go ahead and solder them straight in? (The socket obviously doesn't cost > much, and I'm less likely to damage the chip installing it like that, and of > course if I get it in and it's U/S, it's easy to swap out from a socket, but > I'm wondering if the use of a socket has any downside, electrically.) Sockets have basically 5 problems : 1) Extra stray capacitance between the IC pins. This is the normal reason for not using a socket in high- speed circuitry. 2) Extra inductance of the connection to each pin. This can affect certain ICs which need external decoupling (e..g for a clock multiplier PLL) as close to the pin as possible 3) Extra thermal resistance. This is a reason for not putting some power devices in sockets 4) Extra height above the board. In your case Q-bus is tightly spaced anyway, so check there is enough space for the socket you are using. 5) Reduced reliability. My experience is that formed-pin (cheap) sockets are a pain. Turned pin (machined pin, whatever) are fine. I have never had a bad contact on the latter. Yes, if you are doing military or medical work it will matter but for classic computer systems I don't think that a turned pin socket will degrade reliability at all. Personally, if there are no problems due to the above I solder common TTL parts and the like in directly. I socket anything expensive, anything hard to find, or anything complicated. And of course a programmed device (ROM, PAL, etc) gets socketed if at all possible. In yuo case I'd socket the Q-bus buffer chip, but not the TTL latches. -tony From bobvines00 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 11:47:18 2014 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 12:47:18 -0500 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? Message-ID: Does anyone have instructions or a schematic (or a pointer to a URL) on how to make a "hot wire" device to cut the PVA bond between a CRT and its safety lens? What kind of power supply (how much power), "hot wire," etc.? I'd like to build one of these "hot wire" devices, *safely*. Thanks, Bob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 12:48:55 2014 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 12:48:55 -0600 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> On 12/07/2014 11:47 AM, Bob Vines wrote: > Does anyone have instructions or a schematic (or a pointer to a URL) > on how to make a "hot wire" device to cut the PVA bond between a CRT > and its safety lens? What kind of power supply (how much power), "hot > wire," etc.? I did this on a CRT from an HP 250 a number of years ago. If I remember right, the CRT face is around 10"x12", so the shorter dimension's perhaps a bit less than a typical screen. I just used the 12V from a spare PC PSU that was kicking around (with a dummy load on the 5V so that it would regulate OK) and some resistance wire. I'm afraid that I don't recall the wire characteristics - but there was just enough heat to do the job if I took things slowly (and that's likely preferable to something which would be faster, but could possibly be dangerous due to increased heat). I suspect that something with a slightly higher voltage (~15V ?) and run via a wire-wound rheostat for control would be the way to go if you're doing this more than once. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 7 13:09:49 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:09:49 -0800 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> References: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5484A5FD.8010802@sydex.com> On 12/07/2014 11:47 AM, Bob Vines wrote: > Does anyone have instructions or a schematic (or a pointer to a URL) > on how to make a "hot wire" device to cut the PVA bond between a CRT > and its safety lens? What kind of power supply (how much power), "hot > wire," etc.? Do an internet search on "hot wire foam cutter". You'll turn up several DIY YouTube videos, Instructables and even low-cost retail ones. Take your pick--it's neither difficult to make you own or expensive to purchase one. --Chuck From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Dec 7 14:46:01 2014 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 12:46:01 -0800 Subject: Origin or 1.44 MV FD label [WAS: RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] Message-ID: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] >Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 12:40 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) >>On Sat, 6 Dec 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I should actually do my math before commenting. :-) It just happens, >> that by a funny accident, 1440*1024 is actually 1,474,560. >> >> But still. The actual size of the floppy wasn't decided because you >> pulled out 1440*1024, but because of the format of the darn thing. >> 1.44MB is just the closest "nice" number you can come up with after >> the fact as a way to talk about the capacity of the thing. >> >> It is not an exact number, but they seldom are, when we talk about >> storage. People like to round things off, to make it easier to talk about. >It is NOT a "nice" number. >Honest numbers would be either 1.47 or 1.4 There is no legitimate way to come up with 1.44 unless you cheat and MIX powers of 10 and powers of 2. __________________ It comes from a double capacity 720 KB FDD - which in this case are actually KiB and not kB However, in an incredible bit of marketing stupidity it was labeled 1.44 MB, since 2*720 KB/1000 = 1.44 MB Tom From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 7 14:56:36 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 12:56:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin or 1.44 MV FD label [WAS: RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> References: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> > > It is NOT a "nice" number. Honest numbers would be either 1.47 or 1.4 > > There is no legitimate way to come up with 1.44 unless you cheat and > > MIX powers of 10 and powers of 2. On Sun, 7 Dec 2014, Tom Gardner wrote: > It comes from a double capacity 720 KB FDD - which in this case are actually > KiB and not kB > However, in an incredible bit of marketing stupidity it was labeled 1.44 MB, > since 2*720 KB/1000 = 1.44 MB . . . and what justifies a division by 1000, when the existing number is explicitly a multiple of 1024? 720K is NOT 0.72M The disk is 1440 K, which is NOT 1.44M, it is 1.40625M, or simply "1.4M". Was it an ERROR? Or the work of cheating assholes? From random832 at fastmail.us Sun Dec 7 15:00:23 2014 From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 16:00:23 -0500 Subject: Origin or 1.44 MV FD label [WAS: RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> References: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1417986023.578230.199938161.4D39EE41@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, Dec 7, 2014, at 15:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > The disk is 1440 K, which is NOT 1.44M, it is 1.40625M, > or simply "1.4M". > > Was it an ERROR? Or the work of cheating assholes? Probably just an error... "cheating assholes" wouldn't explain why it's not 1.47. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 7 15:29:05 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 13:29:05 -0800 Subject: Origin or 1.44 MV FD label [WAS: RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> References: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5484C6A1.1050901@sydex.com> On 12/07/2014 12:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The disk is 1440 K, which is NOT 1.44M, it is 1.40625M, > or simply "1.4M". > > Was it an ERROR? Or the work of cheating assholes? Who's cheating? The maker of your formatting program? (Reaches over to the top of his PC and grabs a high-density 3.5" floppy) I see three lines of writing on the shutter. Line 1: "IMATION" Line 2: "2HD" Line 3: "2.0 MB" And, as I pointed out, at the customary western high-density clock rate of 500KHz and 300 RPM rotation--and 8 bit bytes, comes out to exactly 2,000,000 bytes. Don't blame the manufacturer for getting less than you bargained for. It's very clear that "2.0 MB" means 2 x 10**6 bytes. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 7 16:35:06 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 14:35:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin or 1.44 MV FD label [WAS: RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <5484C6A1.1050901@sydex.com> References: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> <5484C6A1.1050901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141207142944.S48307@shell.lmi.net> > > The disk is 1440 K, which is NOT 1.44M, it is 1.40625M, > > or simply "1.4M". > > Was it an ERROR? Or the work of cheating assholes? On Sun, 7 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Who's cheating? The maker of your formatting program? (Reaches over to > the top of his PC and grabs a high-density 3.5" floppy) I see three > lines of writing on the shutter. > Line 1: "IMATION" > Line 2: "2HD" > Line 3: "2.0 MB" > And, as I pointed out, at the customary western high-density clock rate > of 500KHz and 300 RPM rotation--and 8 bit bytes, comes out to exactly > 2,000,000 bytes. > Don't blame the manufacturer for getting less than you bargained for. > It's very clear that "2.0 MB" means 2 x 10**6 bytes. It makes sense for the diskette manufacturer to use unformatted capacity; after all, they have no control of the format parameters. Using Si units is disappointing, but not surprising. And, it probably wasn't even Wabash that started that. BUT, the creator of the FORMAT would have no excuse for using unformatted capacity (NeXT), nor miscalculating it (IBM) From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sun Dec 7 16:44:40 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 16:44:40 -0600 Subject: The 9406-270 - OS and Other Products Installed In-Reply-To: <20141206044415.GB25931@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141206044415.GB25931@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20141207224439.GA21815@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Fans, On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 10:44:15PM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > Only one drive came up to choose from during the install process so > everything is installed on it. A WRKDSKSTS shows drive 1 at 33% and drive 0 > unused. Is it possible to add drive 0 to the system at this point? That was actually easy. I just had to initialize the drive then add it to the system ASP via SST. > Some of the things I can think of that I'm sure need to be done at some > point: > > - Learn how to apply PTFs > - Create some user profiles > - Configure and start TCP/IP Those are done. Well, I haven't learned much about dealing with PTFs yet but I did manage to apply a large PTF group. > - Explore backup options in case I have to reinstall or restore every 69 > days. I'd be surprised if the internal tape drive is functional. > - Learn all kinds of things I haven't even heard of yet Those are still a work in progress. It's been a fun weekend. It's nice to finally have something that requires an IPL instead of a boot. :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Dec 7 17:02:05 2014 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 15:02:05 -0800 Subject: Welcome to the Prefix wars [WAS:RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] Message-ID: <006701d01271$d26da5b0$7748f110$@computer.org> >On Saturday, December 06, 2014 8:21 PM Chuck Guzis wrote >On 12/06/2014 06:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Jerome H. Fine >> I would point out that one reason that memory may have stayed with 2 ** >> 30 is that memory is usually produced and sold in multiples of 2 ** 30 >> these days >> >> Main memory has pretty much _always_ been sold in blocks that were >> exact powers of two, for obvious reasons (at least, powers of two of >> the word size of the machine in question)... >Let's see; IBM 1620--basic memory size=20,000 digits, increments of >20,000 digits up to 60,000. IBM 705, 7080,... >What is curious is the marketing numbers used for the memory size. 65K, 131K, etc. I believe IBM was guilty of this in their S/360 marketing literature. >The numbers sound bigger. >--Chuck Welcome to the debate over who is responsible for the confusion in the use of binary versus decimal prefixes; it has been going on at Wikipedia since 2001, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_binary_prefixes Actually I think IBM was fairly rigorous in using decimal prefixes, K meaning 1,000, with annotation K=1024 when appropriate as in the Amdahl article on S/360 architecture. I doubt if it had anything to do with appearance. More importantly I am pretty sure that into the 1980s (perhaps later) in its product literature, product specs and operating system utilities IBM used decimal digits with no prefixes at all. IMO the mess really started with Apple's Macintosh which reported memory and disk capacity using K in a binary sense without any qualification. I can't prove a negative, but I think no OS prior to the Mac OS used any prefixes at all; they simply displayed or printed a decimal number to however many digits necessary, sometimes without commas. It will be interesting to see what this group recalls If u think about it, mixing decimal digits with binary prefixes makes little sense and probably has caused all sorts of problems and confusions such as the infamous 1.44 MB FD. I've always wondered why the programmer at Apple didn't use decimal prefixes and avoid all this nonsense. After all there isn't a lot of difference in coding between a binary shift followed by a decimal conversion as Apple did it and a decimal conversion followed by a decimal shift. Tom From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 7 18:27:19 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 16:27:19 -0800 Subject: Origin or 1.44 MV FD label [WAS: RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <20141207142944.S48307@shell.lmi.net> References: <005d01d0125e$d02c89f0$70859dd0$@computer.org> <20141207125156.T48307@shell.lmi.net> <5484C6A1.1050901@sydex.com> <20141207142944.S48307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5484F067.4080607@sydex.com> On 12/07/2014 02:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > BUT, the creator of the FORMAT would have no excuse for using unformatted > capacity (NeXT), nor miscalculating it (IBM) Within the IBM literature, it would be interesting who decided to call it "1.2MB"; 1,200K is perfectly legitimate, as is 360K, 320K and 720K. For what it's worth, even under XP and Windows 7, FORMAT /A F:1440 and /F:1200 work fine as format specifiers. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 7 18:46:20 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 16:46:20 -0800 Subject: Welcome to the Prefix wars [WAS:RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <006701d01271$d26da5b0$7748f110$@computer.org> References: <006701d01271$d26da5b0$7748f110$@computer.org> Message-ID: <5484F4DC.1070802@sydex.com> On 12/07/2014 03:02 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > IMO the mess really started with Apple's Macintosh which reported memory and > disk capacity using K in a binary sense without any qualification. I can't > prove a negative, but I think no OS prior to the Mac OS used any prefixes at > all; they simply displayed or printed a decimal number to however many > digits necessary, sometimes without commas. It will be interesting to see > what this group recalls . Oh, it started before the Mac. Consider, for example, the Technical Reference for the IBM PC (first edition). Clear as day, it talks about memory expansion options of "256K". Even so, consider older CP/M machines--many of them used the memory available in the signon as "XXK" It probably goes back well into the 60s talking about so many "kilowords" of memory or mass storage. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 7 19:09:41 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 17:09:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Welcome to the Prefix wars [WAS:RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <5484F4DC.1070802@sydex.com> References: <006701d01271$d26da5b0$7748f110$@computer.org> <5484F4DC.1070802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141207170405.X48307@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Oh, it started before the Mac. Consider, for example, the Technical > Reference for the IBM PC (first edition). Clear as day, it talks about > memory expansion options of "256K". Even so, consider older CP/M > machines--many of them used the memory available in the signon as "XXK" I remember some booth staff at West Coast Computer Faire (1979?) trying to tell me that their computer with 65.5K of RAM was better than the competition's 64K. It was certainly well established by the time of TRS80/Apple][/Pet. (4K,16K,48K, . . . ) > It probably goes back well into the 60s talking about so many > "kilowords" of memory or mass storage. From isking at uw.edu Sun Dec 7 23:41:48 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 21:41:48 -0800 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: References: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: When I was at Living Computer Museum, we were using a small pin that had a socket (hole) in it. Solder N of those into the board after removing an IC, and you'd never have to desolder another one - an important benefit considering that some of these boards are losing integrity in the bonding of copper to epoxy (or never had such integrity, e.g., Data General). They're low profile (maybe a fraction of a millimeter higher than a directly soldered-in chip), which can be crucial in some of the crowded backplanes we see. ISTR that Mouser sells them. -- Ian On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 11:44 AM, tony duell wrote: > > And should I always install the replacements in sockets, or is it OK to > just > > go ahead and solder them straight in? (The socket obviously doesn't cost > > much, and I'm less likely to damage the chip installing it like that, > and of > > course if I get it in and it's U/S, it's easy to swap out from a socket, > but > > I'm wondering if the use of a socket has any downside, electrically.) > > Sockets have basically 5 problems : > > 1) Extra stray capacitance between the IC pins. This is the normal reason > for not using a socket in high- > speed circuitry. > > 2) Extra inductance of the connection to each pin. This can affect certain > ICs which need external decoupling > (e..g for a clock multiplier PLL) as close to the pin as possible > > 3) Extra thermal resistance. This is a reason for not putting some power > devices in sockets > > 4) Extra height above the board. In your case Q-bus is tightly spaced > anyway, so check there is enough > space for the socket you are using. > > 5) Reduced reliability. My experience is that formed-pin (cheap) sockets > are a pain. Turned pin (machined > pin, whatever) are fine. I have never had a bad contact on the latter. > Yes, if you are doing military or medical > work it will matter but for classic computer systems I don't think that a > turned pin socket will degrade > reliability at all. > > Personally, if there are no problems due to the above I solder common TTL > parts and the like in directly. > I socket anything expensive, anything hard to find, or anything > complicated. And of course a programmed > device (ROM, PAL, etc) gets socketed if at all possible. > > In yuo case I'd socket the Q-bus buffer chip, but not the TTL latches. > > -tony > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From mikerm at mikeslab.net Sun Dec 7 23:49:20 2014 From: mikerm at mikeslab.net (Mike M) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 22:49:20 -0700 Subject: The 9406-270 - OS and Other Products Installed In-Reply-To: <20141207224439.GA21815@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20141206044415.GB25931@RawFedDogs.net> <20141207224439.GA21815@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <1418017760.89834.200066133.7B6797A2@webmail.messagingengine.com> Very cool! Mike On Sun, Dec 7, 2014, at 03:44 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > Classic Computer Fans, > > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 10:44:15PM -0600, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > > Only one drive came up to choose from during the install process so > > everything is installed on it. A WRKDSKSTS shows drive 1 at 33% and drive 0 > > unused. Is it possible to add drive 0 to the system at this point? > > That was actually easy. I just had to initialize the drive then add it > to > the system ASP via SST. > > > Some of the things I can think of that I'm sure need to be done at some > > point: > > > > - Learn how to apply PTFs > > - Create some user profiles > > - Configure and start TCP/IP > > Those are done. Well, I haven't learned much about dealing with PTFs yet > but I did manage to apply a large PTF group. > > > - Explore backup options in case I have to reinstall or restore every 69 > > days. I'd be surprised if the internal tape drive is functional. > > - Learn all kinds of things I haven't even heard of yet > > Those are still a work in progress. It's been a fun weekend. It's nice > to > finally have something that requires an IPL instead of a boot. :-) > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.Lassie.xyz > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 23:54:37 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 05:54:37 +0000 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: References: <20141207133850.3604218C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: > When I was at Living Computer Museum, we were using a small pin that had a > socket (hole) in it. Solder N of those into the board after removing an > IC, and you'd never have to desolder another one - an important benefit > considering that some of these boards are losing integrity in the bonding > of copper to epoxy (or never had such integrity, e.g., Data General). > They're low profile (maybe a fraction of a millimeter higher than a > directly soldered-in chip), which can be crucial in some of the crowded > backplanes we see. ISTR that Mouser sells them. -- Ian I've used them (Farnell -- so I guess Newark -- sell the Harwin brand) but they obviously need a larger hole in the PCB than an IC pin on its own will go into. And in a lot of cases the hole in the PCB is not large enough for these sockets (obviously you can't drill out holes in a plated-through-hole PCB) I must admit I was pleasantly surprised when working on an HP11305 disk controller. That machine is tight inside. I removed the microcode ROMs to dump them and realised that if I put 2 of them in sockets they would foul the mains transformer (the other 3 were OK). Only after I had desoldered them did I realise that the holes for those 2 were large enough for these little pin sockets (I can't remember about the other 3, but I used normal sockets there anyway). So one order later and all my ROMS were socketed. It appears that the 'old HP' thought that people might want to socket their ROMs... -tony From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Dec 7 17:12:18 2014 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 15:12:18 -0800 Subject: Acceptable Ripple In-Reply-To: <032c01d01182$3732a130$a597e390$@ntlworld.com> References: <032c01d01182$3732a130$a597e390$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5484DED2.5050805@alum.mit.edu> On 12/6/2014 10:26 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Just checking a PSU in a MicroVAX 3100 Model 80. I am measuring about 10mV > ripple on the 5V supply and 20mV ripple on the 12V supply. Does that seem > reasonable? Those are very reasonable ripple voltage levels on those supplies. > I am not sure if it is a scope artefact, but there appear to be large spikes > at the top and bottom of each sawtooth. The machine appears to partially > work, it seems to be getting some errors during the memory test, but I don't > know if that is the spikes I am seeing or just a bad component somewhere. Could be either ... depends on your scope probe setup. If you are using a passive probe with a long flying ground lead, you can easily cause your scope to display much larger spikes than exist in the circuit, due to the added inductance of the flying ground lead. The best possible probing can be had using a direct 50ohm coax wired across a decoupling cap (or other convenient power/ground spot) into your scope as a 50ohm input. The probing ground loop will be very small and the scope will very accurately reflect on its display what is happening in your circuit. It takes a bit more work to set it up, but you will get a better view of what the board power rail looks like. HOWEVER you must be careful not to overload the power input of your 50ohm scope termination. Your scope must be able to handle V^2/R watts on its input, or 0.5W at 5V, and 3W at 12V. Probably OK at 5V, but not at 12V. The solution is to add a series resistor on the center coax lead of for example 150ohm, so the scope only sees 50/(50+150) = 1/4 the input voltage. At 12V then the scope will see only 3V, and the input scope termination must only handle 200mW at 12V power rail. Of course you must multiply the scope display by 4X to get the real voltage display. Don From mspproductions at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 18:26:23 2014 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 19:26:23 -0500 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable Message-ID: Hello all, I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no drive activity and no sound. I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for replacement. I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not able to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. Does anyone know what value those caps are? Thanks, Matt Sent from my iPhone From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 19:05:46 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 19:05:46 -0600 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: <5484A5FD.8010802@sydex.com> References: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> <5484A5FD.8010802@sydex.com> Message-ID: Many years ago I worked with an improvised hot-wire foam cutter, used to cut 4' thick EPS (Styrofoam) slabs. The wire itself was around 6' long, and ran vertically. The electrical side consisted of only the ni-chrome wire, a Variac, a fuse or CB and AC wiring. Whoever spec'd out the thing chose a wire that, at 6' long, was fine with somewhere between 20V and 120V AC - I never really noticed where the Variac was set, somewhere mid-range though. On the top end, the wire was attached via a long-ish turnbuckle to an insulator secured to a ceiling truss. The hot wire penetrated the work surface (a table made of two 4x8 sheets of plywood) near the center (passing through a metal guide plate with a small hole) and was firmly secured somewhere beneath. The turnbuckle up top was used to set tension on the wire. On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/07/2014 11:47 AM, Bob Vines wrote: > >> Does anyone have instructions or a schematic (or a pointer to a URL) >> on how to make a "hot wire" device to cut the PVA bond between a CRT >> and its safety lens? What kind of power supply (how much power), "hot >> wire," etc.? >> > > Do an internet search on "hot wire foam cutter". You'll turn up several > DIY YouTube videos, Instructables and even low-cost retail ones. > > Take your pick--it's neither difficult to make you own or expensive to > purchase one. > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 7 19:34:41 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 17:34:41 -0800 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: References: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> <5484A5FD.8010802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54850031.6070700@sydex.com> On 12/07/2014 05:05 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > On the top end, the wire was attached via a long-ish turnbuckle to an > insulator secured to a ceiling truss. The hot wire penetrated the work > surface (a table made of two 4x8 sheets of plywood) near the center > (passing through a metal guide plate with a small hole) and was firmly > secured somewhere beneath. The turnbuckle up top was used to set tension on > the wire. I've got one in my shop made with stainless steel music wire and a bent hacksaw blade for tension. A cheap triac dimmer feeds into an old filament transformer. Not as grand as yours, but it does get the job done. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 20:54:04 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 20:54:04 -0600 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: <54850031.6070700@sydex.com> References: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> <5484A5FD.8010802@sydex.com> <54850031.6070700@sydex.com> Message-ID: @Chuck Why did you need the filament xfmr? Was the hot-wire so low in resistance? Curious about the bent hacksaw blade tensioner.. was it bent in a zig-zag fashion, approximating a spring of sorts, using the holes on each end to connect it? On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/07/2014 05:05 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > On the top end, the wire was attached via a long-ish turnbuckle to an >> insulator secured to a ceiling truss. The hot wire penetrated the work >> surface (a table made of two 4x8 sheets of plywood) near the center >> (passing through a metal guide plate with a small hole) and was firmly >> secured somewhere beneath. The turnbuckle up top was used to set tension >> on >> the wire. >> > > I've got one in my shop made with stainless steel music wire and a bent > hacksaw blade for tension. A cheap triac dimmer feeds into an old filament > transformer. Not as grand as yours, but it does get the job done. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 7 21:33:03 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 19:33:03 -0800 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: References: <5484A117.8000603@gmail.com> <5484A5FD.8010802@sydex.com> <54850031.6070700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54851BEF.9090503@sydex.com> On 12/07/2014 06:54 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Why did you need the filament xfmr? Was the hot-wire so low in resistance? The distance between the wire end-points was probably only 6-8 inches. So, yeah, the resistance was really low. No zig-zag on the hacksaw. just gently bent in a somewhat asymmetrical U shape--one end fastened to the work "table" and the other to one end of the wire. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 01:13:01 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 01:13:01 -0600 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If this is one of the original Mac Portables (white, wedge-shaped, B&W LCD screen), have you disconnected the HD from the motherboard? The HDs on these machines just love to die, and when they do, they can screw-up the whole machine. If you haven't already eliminated that possibility, I'd do it before you run around replacing anything else. If you can find the correct drive, you can make a cable to adapt it to the portable - but you won't have the low-power feature of the original drive. It's been 15 years, but I went through one of those machines, back when. On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. > > I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no > drive activity and no sound. > > I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for > replacement. > > I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not able > to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. > > Does anyone know what value those caps are? > > Thanks, > > Matt > > Sent from my iPhone > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 8 03:09:12 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 10:09:12 +0100 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:03:35PM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Memory-Digital-DEC-logo-1216988-board-from-PDP-11-or-VAX-/261685664915 > > I'm really curious what all those SIP hybrids are running down the one side > of the board. I see it's got no less than 8 74181 ALUs so I figure this has > got to be some kind of processor? I looked at a picture of an MXV11 board today and I noticed similar, but not identical, SIP hybrids (as you call them): http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/mxv11-b.jpg Perhaps a clue. /P From scaron at umich.edu Mon Dec 8 09:36:14 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 10:36:14 -0500 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board In-Reply-To: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hey, interesting, those are almost identical. Yeah, I'm not sure "hybrid" was really the correct term, maybe MCM? I see a couple components attached to a piece of ceramic and I want to call it a hybrid... probably have been looking at too many RF component databooks recently, LOL. Thanks for noticing the similarity and posting... I guess those modules are almost certainly some kind of memory? It's just such an unusual packaging scheme for it. Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:03:35PM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Memory-Digital-DEC-logo-1216988-board-from-PDP-11-or-VAX-/261685664915 > > > > I'm really curious what all those SIP hybrids are running down the one > side > > of the board. I see it's got no less than 8 74181 ALUs so I figure this > has > > got to be some kind of processor? > > I looked at a picture of an MXV11 board today and I noticed similar, but > not identical, SIP hybrids (as you call them): > > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/mxv11-b.jpg > > Perhaps a clue. > > /P > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Dec 8 09:40:08 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 10:40:08 -0500 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't they also act funny if the internal battery is dead? You might have to provide a substitute for that voltage. My memory is pretty fuzzy... it's been a while since I've read anything or given any mindshare to a Mac Portable. But I definitely remember they had some strange quirks in their behavior. Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:13 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > If this is one of the original Mac Portables (white, wedge-shaped, B&W LCD > screen), have you disconnected the HD from the motherboard? > > The HDs on these machines just love to die, and when they do, they can > screw-up the whole machine. If you haven't already eliminated that > possibility, I'd do it before you run around replacing anything else. If > you can find the correct drive, you can make a cable to adapt it to the > portable - but you won't have the low-power feature of the original drive. > > It's been 15 years, but I went through one of those machines, back when. > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Matt Patoray > wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. > > > > I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no > > drive activity and no sound. > > > > I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for > > replacement. > > > > I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not able > > to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. > > > > Does anyone know what value those caps are? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Matt > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 09:49:41 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 09:49:41 -0600 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Portable as well, and that's correct about the battery. It won't boot at all, even with external power, if the battery is dead. Try doing some searching about alternative power supplies. I believe the problem is that the standard power supply can't source enough power to get things started on its own. I've read about people having success using a power supply from a PowerBook 100, or building their own power supplies. On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Don't they also act funny if the internal battery is dead? You might have > to provide a substitute for that voltage. My memory is pretty fuzzy... it's > been a while since I've read anything or given any mindshare to a Mac > Portable. But I definitely remember they had some strange quirks in their > behavior. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:13 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > If this is one of the original Mac Portables (white, wedge-shaped, B&W > LCD > > screen), have you disconnected the HD from the motherboard? > > > > The HDs on these machines just love to die, and when they do, they can > > screw-up the whole machine. If you haven't already eliminated that > > possibility, I'd do it before you run around replacing anything else. If > > you can find the correct drive, you can make a cable to adapt it to the > > portable - but you won't have the low-power feature of the original > drive. > > > > It's been 15 years, but I went through one of those machines, back when. > > > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Matt Patoray > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. > > > > > > I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no > > > drive activity and no sound. > > > > > > I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for > > > replacement. > > > > > > I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not > able > > > to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. > > > > > > Does anyone know what value those caps are? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 09:52:00 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 09:52:00 -0600 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, make sure the extra 9V battery is installed and good! On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I have a Portable as well, and that's correct about the battery. It won't > boot at all, even with external power, if the battery is dead. > > Try doing some searching about alternative power supplies. I believe the > problem is that the standard power supply can't source enough power to get > things started on its own. I've read about people having success using a > power supply from a PowerBook 100, or building their own power supplies. > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Don't they also act funny if the internal battery is dead? You might have >> to provide a substitute for that voltage. My memory is pretty fuzzy... >> it's >> been a while since I've read anything or given any mindshare to a Mac >> Portable. But I definitely remember they had some strange quirks in their >> behavior. >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:13 AM, drlegendre . >> wrote: >> >> > If this is one of the original Mac Portables (white, wedge-shaped, B&W >> LCD >> > screen), have you disconnected the HD from the motherboard? >> > >> > The HDs on these machines just love to die, and when they do, they can >> > screw-up the whole machine. If you haven't already eliminated that >> > possibility, I'd do it before you run around replacing anything else. If >> > you can find the correct drive, you can make a cable to adapt it to the >> > portable - but you won't have the low-power feature of the original >> drive. >> > >> > It's been 15 years, but I went through one of those machines, back when. >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Matt Patoray >> > wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Hello all, >> > > >> > > I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. >> > > >> > > I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, >> no >> > > drive activity and no sound. >> > > >> > > I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for >> > > replacement. >> > > >> > > I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not >> able >> > > to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. >> > > >> > > Does anyone know what value those caps are? >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Matt >> > > >> > > Sent from my iPhone >> > > >> > >> > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From simski at dds.nl Mon Dec 8 10:40:24 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 17:40:24 +0100 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5485D478.8070300@dds.nl> No you dont need that, only if you want to change main batteries during sleep. note for this setup you need *two* working main batteries. :-) but do change the caps, and you can substitute the platter of a mac classic 40mb drive and reuse the electronics of the drive in the portable. just dont place the portable upright as the goo in the grives sealing will drip on the platters, killing the heads. simon On 08-12-14 16:52, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Also, make sure the extra 9V battery is installed and good! > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> I have a Portable as well, and that's correct about the battery. It won't >> boot at all, even with external power, if the battery is dead. >> >> Try doing some searching about alternative power supplies. I believe the >> problem is that the standard power supply can't source enough power to get >> things started on its own. I've read about people having success using a >> power supply from a PowerBook 100, or building their own power supplies. >> >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> Don't they also act funny if the internal battery is dead? You might have >>> to provide a substitute for that voltage. My memory is pretty fuzzy... >>> it's >>> been a while since I've read anything or given any mindshare to a Mac >>> Portable. But I definitely remember they had some strange quirks in their >>> behavior. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:13 AM, drlegendre . >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If this is one of the original Mac Portables (white, wedge-shaped, B&W >>> LCD >>>> screen), have you disconnected the HD from the motherboard? >>>> >>>> The HDs on these machines just love to die, and when they do, they can >>>> screw-up the whole machine. If you haven't already eliminated that >>>> possibility, I'd do it before you run around replacing anything else. If >>>> you can find the correct drive, you can make a cable to adapt it to the >>>> portable - but you won't have the low-power feature of the original >>> drive. >>>> >>>> It's been 15 years, but I went through one of those machines, back when. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Matt Patoray >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. >>>>> >>>>> I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, >>> no >>>>> drive activity and no sound. >>>>> >>>>> I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for >>>>> replacement. >>>>> >>>>> I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not >>> able >>>>> to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone know what value those caps are? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com >> > > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From richard.smith at mewgull.com Mon Dec 8 09:55:08 2014 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 15:55:08 +0000 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The internal battery is required to get the machine to boot properly. It is a 6 volt sealed lead-acid battery made up of three Cylon 2 volt 4AH cells. It's many years since I rebuilt one. Richard Smith Mewgull Associates Limited Leonard Lane Bristol BS1 1EA Office: +44 (0) 117 951 8321 Mobile: +44 (0) 7768 517284 Sent from my iPad > On 8 Dec 2014, at 15:49, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > I have a Portable as well, and that's correct about the battery. It won't > boot at all, even with external power, if the battery is dead. > > Try doing some searching about alternative power supplies. I believe the > problem is that the standard power supply can't source enough power to get > things started on its own. I've read about people having success using a > power supply from a PowerBook 100, or building their own power supplies. > >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >> Don't they also act funny if the internal battery is dead? You might have >> to provide a substitute for that voltage. My memory is pretty fuzzy... it's >> been a while since I've read anything or given any mindshare to a Mac >> Portable. But I definitely remember they had some strange quirks in their >> behavior. >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:13 AM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>> If this is one of the original Mac Portables (white, wedge-shaped, B&W >> LCD >>> screen), have you disconnected the HD from the motherboard? >>> >>> The HDs on these machines just love to die, and when they do, they can >>> screw-up the whole machine. If you haven't already eliminated that >>> possibility, I'd do it before you run around replacing anything else. If >>> you can find the correct drive, you can make a cable to adapt it to the >>> portable - but you won't have the low-power feature of the original >> drive. >>> >>> It's been 15 years, but I went through one of those machines, back when. >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Matt Patoray >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. >>>> >>>> I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no >>>> drive activity and no sound. >>>> >>>> I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for >>>> replacement. >>>> >>>> I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not >> able >>>> to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know what value those caps are? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From simski at dds.nl Mon Dec 8 10:45:11 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 17:45:11 +0100 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5485D597.7040902@dds.nl> Oh and is it a backlit portable or the original one? they have a different mobo. the original had a lot of static ram chips, the backlight one doesnt. so the caps are different as well. On 08-12-14 01:26, Matt Patoray wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. > > I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no drive activity and no sound. > > I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for replacement. > > I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not able to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. > > Does anyone know what value those caps are? > > Thanks, > > Matt > > Sent from my iPhone > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Dec 8 11:30:02 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 18:30:02 +0100 Subject: 2 new old stock Memorex MRX IV 6250 BPI SuperReel Tape Message-ID: <001d01d0130c$9ad94550$d08bcff0$@tin.it> I'm not the seller, nor related with them in any way. This said, apparently these are new old stock (pics show sealed in plastic), and they ship internationally. http://www.ebay.it/itm/2-Nastri-Memorex-MRX-IV-6250-BPI-SuperReel-Tape-VAX-D EC-IBM-Vintage-/371205354623?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101 &hash=item566d90347f From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 13:14:50 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 11:14:50 -0800 Subject: RGS 008A Docs? Message-ID: Anyone have any documentation on the RGS 008A? This is an early (1975) microcomputer kit based on the 8008, and was reviewed in the first issue of BYTE. Other than that article, there's not much information out there; anyone happen to have the manuals (or anything else) and be willing to scan them? Thanks, Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 13:43:01 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 13:43:01 -0600 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: <5485D478.8070300@dds.nl> References: <5485D478.8070300@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > but do change the caps, and you can substitute the platter of a mac > classic 40mb drive and reuse the electronics of the drive in the portable. FYI, this didn't work for me, even though I did apparently have the 'correct' 40MB Connor HD. The electronics wouldn't transplant, or something to that effect. I ended up having to make a cable for it, which was a little messy but did work just fine. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Dec 8 13:54:09 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 19:54:09 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <54848A23.6020103@pico-systems.com> References: <20141207025529.3071018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5483D5A8.4050601@sydex.com> <54848A23.6020103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D19CA8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jon Elson Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 9:11 AM > Say, this brings up a question I've always wondered about. On the > emulation microcode for the 360 series that ran decimal machine code, > such as the 1401, did they translate every address from decimal to > binary before accessing the memory, or did they just use the bare BCD > address, leaving little and big holes all over the binary address > space? As it happens, I saw this discussed somewhere else in the last few months by someone who actually worked on these things (probably on alt.folklore.computers, come to think of it). They left holes in memory while running 1401 emulation. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 8 17:47:51 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 18:47:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141208234751.51E6218C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm trying to fix a broken MSV11-L card (M8059-KF). The symptom is that > it always reads back with the 020 bit set, but otherwise appears to be > fine. > ... > two octal 3-state-output latches (E57 and E64, an 'LS373 and an 'S373 > respectively). > ... > the two octal latches are both TI Malaysia parts (date code 8231) > ... > it's the data latch that's bad. So, I seem to have discovered a plague! I had another failed QBUS memory card, an MSV11-D this time (M8044-DB). It has the exact identical symptom, except with a different bit - 02000 this time, instead of 020. So, since the designs are very similar, I thought 'maybe another bad S373'. Well, they aren't quite as similar as it thought, but the culprit is indeed apparently ... a bad S373! (Although I have to caveat that; I suppose it could be the bus transceiver it's connected to.. but the output is always high, which make it seem like the the driver in the 'S373 has failed.) Anyway, this time it's a National Semiconductor part, and from a very different date code (7947). What is it with S373's? Is this just pure chance, that two from different makers, quite a while apart in time, were the culprit? Or is there some issue with S373's? (I note that MSV11-D's are apparently notorious for failing; perhaps because they use S373's a lot?) I do have another MSV11-D with a similar fault (the 01 bit this time); once I get it fault-isolated, I'll report if it, too, is caused by an S373 failure. It may take a while to get it fault-isolated, though - so far, I've been writing two- or three- instruction loops which have the picked bit set in all the words of the program! (Because I'm too lazy to write a longer program that sets up the memory mapping so the program can run out of 'good' memory, only poking the 'bad' memory to test it... :-) Also, it's kind of an fun challenge... :-) Noel From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Mon Dec 8 19:05:34 2014 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 17:05:34 -0800 Subject: Holiday Music Week on RetroBattlestations Message-ID: It's Holiday Music Week on RetroBattlestations, where people submit videos of their old computers playing music! Play some music with your PDP on an AM radio, enter your favorite scores into Music Construction Set, or fire up a Christmas demo! You can choose any holiday music from the traditional or the not so traditional, but, in order to be eligible though, you have to submit a song that hasn't already been submitted. There's prizes of vinyl stickers and reddit gold, but like most every challenge on RetroBattlestations, it's more about showing off your computers and that they still work. You can get more details here: http://redd.it/2ogx2n And for anyone that hasn't seen it before, here's a mashup of most of last year's entries playing Linus & Lucy. http://youtu.be/aZOJQwVgRi4 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From t.gardner at computer.org Mon Dec 8 20:27:37 2014 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 18:27:37 -0800 Subject: Welcome to the Prefix wars [WAS:RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <20141207170405.X48307@shell.lmi.net> References: <006701d01271$d26da5b0$7748f110$@computer.org> <5484F4DC.1070802@sydex.com> <20141207170405.X48307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <009b01d01357$b38959f0$1a9c0dd0$@computer.org> >On Sunday, December 07, 2014 5:10 PM Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] wrote >On Sun, 7 Dec 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Oh, it started before the Mac. Consider, for example, the Technical >> Reference for the IBM PC (first edition). Clear as day, it talks > >about memory expansion options of "256K". Even so, consider older > >CP/M machines--many of them used the memory available in the signon as "XXK" >I remember some booth staff at West Coast Computer Faire (1979?) trying to tell me that their computer with 65.5K of RAM was better than the competition's 64K. >It was certainly well established by the time of TRS80/Apple][/Pet. (4K,16K,48K, . . . ) >> It probably goes back well into the 60s talking about so many "kilowords" of memory or mass storage. Thanks for the comments but I still content the mess really started with Apple's Macintosh OS which REPORTED MEMORY AND DISK CAPACITY USING K in a binary sense without any qualification. There is no doubt that K and M were used in a binary sense before Macintosh, but AFAIK not by any OS for disk capacity. MSDOS and PCDOS AFAIK did not use any prefixes - the utilities just reported the values in a string of decimal digits without commas. Interesting but not surprising that CPM used binary K on memory but I doubt it reported on disk capacity using any prefixes, but I could be wrong. Don't know about TRS80 and PET but I doubt the OSes used prefixes of any sort. The real mess started when an OS reported a disk drive advertised in conventional MB using binary MB e.g. an ST225 advertised by Seagate as having 21.4 million bytes but reported by an OS as having a 20910 KB capacity (41,820 512 byte sectors per Seagate spec = 21.411.840 bytes = 21.4 MB). Where is the missing 490 KB? Macintosh OS System 1 is the first OS that I know about. Tom From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 8 22:11:38 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 20:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Welcome to the Prefix wars [WAS:RE: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205)] In-Reply-To: <009b01d01357$b38959f0$1a9c0dd0$@computer.org> References: <006701d01271$d26da5b0$7748f110$@computer.org> <5484F4DC.1070802@sydex.com> <20141207170405.X48307@shell.lmi.net> <009b01d01357$b38959f0$1a9c0dd0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <20141208193628.T68527@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Dec 2014, Tom Gardner wrote: > Thanks for the comments but I still content the mess really started with > Apple's Macintosh OS which REPORTED MEMORY AND DISK CAPACITY USING K in a > binary sense without any qualification. There is no doubt that K and M were > used in a binary sense before Macintosh, but AFAIK not by any OS for disk > capacity. > MSDOS and PCDOS AFAIK did not use any prefixes - the utilities just reported > the values in a string of decimal digits without commas. Interesting but > not surprising that CPM used binary K on memory but I doubt it reported on > disk capacity using any prefixes, but I could be wrong. Don't know about > TRS80 and PET but I doubt the OSes used prefixes of any sort. CP/M reported disk capacity (STAT) as "K"; (STAT DSK:) as "Kilobyte" TRS80 reported memory in K. (1979?) ALthough FREE reported disk free space in "GRANS" XT P.O.S.T. reported memory in K In MS-DOS/PC-DOS 2.00 and above, FDISK reported hard disk capacity in honest binary Megabytes of 1,048,576 Other than MS-DOS/PC-DOS 2.00 and above, it is true that few "8 bit" computers ever mentioned "Megabytes" > The real mess started when an OS reported a disk drive advertised in > conventional MB using binary MB e.g. an ST225 advertised by Seagate as > having 21.4 million bytes but reported by an OS as having a 20910 KB > capacity (41,820 512 byte sectors per Seagate spec = 21.411.840 bytes = 21.4 > MB). Where is the missing 490 KB? Macintosh OS System 1 is the first OS > that I know about. WHAT missing 490 KB??!? I recall Seagate referring to the ST225 as "20 Megabyte" (~1985?) Unlike some other manufacturers, they rounded DOWN, not UP, AND they did not use excessive "significant digits". (That also gave them a lot more slack than their less scrupulous competitors to cover bad sectors) ((In apthecary measures, there are THREE Scruples in every DRAM!)) BUT, if you are talking about the discrepancy of an OS using Binary MB, while marketing was using Decimal MB, then FDISK in MS-DOS/PC-DOS 2.00 certainly far predates the Macintosh latecomer. Macintosh was FIRST with many marketing fiascos. But not even in the running for early history of binary measurements. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 8 23:45:42 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 06:45:42 +0100 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: <20141208234751.51E6218C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141208234751.51E6218C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54868C86.9010306@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-09 00:47, Noel Chiappa wrote: > It may take a while to get it fault-isolated, though - so far, I've been > writing two- or three- instruction loops which have the picked bit set in all > the words of the program! (Because I'm too lazy to write a longer program that > sets up the memory mapping so the program can run out of 'good' memory, only > poking the 'bad' memory to test it... :-) Also, it's kind of an fun > challenge... :-) Here is a trick for you. If the MMU is off, you can consider the PAR registers as just plain ram. And it is big enough to fit small programs in. So write your small test programs there, and run them. No need to setup memory mapping and all kind of things. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mspproductions at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 15:59:04 2014 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 16:59:04 -0500 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: <5485D478.8070300@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hello, I am bypassing the dead battery using a variable bench power supply set at 6V, I have disconnected the dead hard drive. I am powering with a power book 100 series power adapter. I had disassembled the unit and when i got the logic board out you can smell electrolyte and see corrosion around the pins of some of the surface mount capacitors. The radial electrolytics will be replaced as there are only 5, those will be replaced with Panasonic FR series caps. I suspect the Axial 470 UF caps will be fine as those are Nichicon 105 degree and are quite expensive to replace with something of similar quality. But if i have to there are some Vishay ones that would fit the bill. Matt On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:43 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > > > but do change the caps, and you can substitute the platter of a mac > > classic 40mb drive and reuse the electronics of the drive in the > portable. > > > FYI, this didn't work for me, even though I did apparently have the > 'correct' 40MB Connor HD. The electronics wouldn't transplant, or something > to that effect. I ended up having to make a cable for it, which was a > little messy but did work just fine. > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)542-3698 mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue Dec 9 01:55:41 2014 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 08:55:41 +0100 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board In-Reply-To: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> References: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5486AAFD.3020807@acc.umu.se> Another computer with similar SIP hybrides is the ND-5000 and they are found on several places in the CPU, for instance in the - MMU, http://sintran.com/sintran/hardware/nd-5000/nd-324701.html - ALU http://sintran.com/sintran/hardware/nd-5000/nd-324704.html - Micro program instruction controller http://sintran.com/sintran/hardware/nd-5000/nd-324709.html My guess is that they are fast memory modules used in critical applications as the register file for the ALU, storage of the microcode or microcode cache and translation tables for the MMU in this case. My 5000 machine is not so easily accessed right now so I can't look at the chips mounted on it to find out any product numbers. G?ran Pontus Pihlgren skrev den 2014-12-08 10:09: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:03:35PM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Memory-Digital-DEC-logo-1216988-board-from-PDP-11-or-VAX-/261685664915 >> >> I'm really curious what all those SIP hybrids are running down the one side >> of the board. I see it's got no less than 8 74181 ALUs so I figure this has >> got to be some kind of processor? > I looked at a picture of an MXV11 board today and I noticed similar, but > not identical, SIP hybrids (as you call them): > > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/mxv11-b.jpg > > Perhaps a clue. > > /P > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 9 03:01:41 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 09:01:41 +0000 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board In-Reply-To: <5486AAFD.3020807@acc.umu.se> References: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> <5486AAFD.3020807@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <5486BA75.5060900@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/12/2014 07:55, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Another computer with similar SIP hybrides is the ND-5000 and they are > found on several places in the CPU, for instance in the > - MMU, http://sintran.com/sintran/hardware/nd-5000/nd-324701.html > - ALU http://sintran.com/sintran/hardware/nd-5000/nd-324704.html > - Micro program instruction controller > http://sintran.com/sintran/hardware/nd-5000/nd-324709.html > My guess is that they are fast memory modules Maybe, but SIPPs (as I've usually seen them called, to distinguish them from SIPs: see below) are just SIMMs that have pins. They were once moderately common in 256K and 1M sizes and I've seen a number of 286/386-era PCs that used them. I have a few here (SIPPs, not the PCs), and a couple of MXV11-Bs. They're no faster than common SIMMs of the same vintage. There's also a once-common type of chip - most commonly memory chips - that are SIP (not SIPP) packages as opposed to DIP packages. I have a few machines that use those, too. -- Pete From PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk Tue Dec 9 07:29:55 2014 From: PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk (Doug Peksa) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 13:29:55 +0000 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. Message-ID: I'm a bit late into the fray for this subject but '5 pins' does ring a bell. A 'link adapter port' which '... provides an interface to the outside world ... to allow the user to control an external network of Transputers ... has 5 lines (and a ground/grounds). The 5 lines are NotReset NotAnalyse NotError LinkIn LinkOut Doug. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 9 09:42:23 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 10:42:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? Message-ID: <20141209154223.A31CE18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > If the MMU is off, you can consider the PAR registers as just plain ram. Ooooh, very clever! Wouldn't work on a /40, of course, but on a /23 with 22-bit addressing, they are full width! Thanks for the tip! Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 9 09:49:04 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 16:49:04 +0100 Subject: Help with a busted MSV11-L? In-Reply-To: <20141209154223.A31CE18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141209154223.A31CE18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <548719F0.6090202@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-09 16:42, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > If the MMU is off, you can consider the PAR registers as just plain ram. > > Ooooh, very clever! Wouldn't work on a /40, of course, but on a /23 with > 22-bit addressing, they are full width! Thanks for the tip! Oops. Good point. Didn't think of those 18-bit addressing machines... :-) I actually picked this trick up from a maintenance manual for the 11/70, where they have various small test programs you can enter, which tests tricky parts. They all use the PAR addresses for the code. Johnny From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Tue Dec 9 10:38:28 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 09:38:28 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh my! I never expected to kindle a flame war (maybe it is rekindle). My favorite answer is "All of them." If you assume a terrabyte is 1000000000000 bytes which is 10^12 and the smallest you could expect such a drive to be. And also assume a DECtape (not DECtape II) has an unformatted capacity of 2700000 bits which is 337500 bytes. So smallest drive capacity and largest DECtape capacity would give at least 2962962 DECtapes. Larger drives and smaller capacity tapes only increase this value. We know that DECtapes used by OS/8 have usable capacity of 283008 bytes. In that case it would be 3533469 tapes. It is unlikely that even 2.9 million tapes were manufactured. As for physically stacking tapes on a drive, I suppose you could rig up a platform that could hold tapes up to the point where the drive was crushed. I would weigh a reel if I was writing this at home. I will estimate a reel weighs 4 ounces. That means the 2.9 million tapes would weigh 725000 lbs or 362 tons. A reel has 260 ft of tape so to wrap around the earth at the equator would only require 505682 tapes. I will see if my next trivia question can avoid a minor flame fest even though they are fun to watch from time to time. Doug Ingraham On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > I have had my PDP-8 (no letter) since around 1985. As part of the deal I > got a little over 200 DECtapes. Most of these are SCOTCH 3M branded in > cardboard boxes and not DEC branded DECtapes in the clear blue plastic > containers. I have been thinking about moving this data to a permanent > storage location so I wondered how much space this would require. Turns > out to be about 57 million bytes and that would be without bothering to do > any compression. > > The trivia question is: > > Approximately how many DECtapes will fit on a single one terabyte drive? > > As there are several possible answers to this feel free to reply on the > list. I will give my answer in a few days. > > > Doug Ingraham > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 9 13:14:36 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 14:14:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nice LSI-11 brochure Message-ID: <20141209191436.17F2518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> There's a nice LSI-11 brochure going on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/291318103446 It's got pictures of a lot of different kinds of cards (useful for ID purposes), a modest amount of technical content, etc. Definitely worth having if you're a PDP-11 collector, and can get it for not too much (I already have one, don't need another... :-) Noel From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Dec 9 14:01:14 2014 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 15:01:14 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5487550A.2010107@compsys.to> >Doug Ingraham wrote: >Oh my! I never expected to kindle a flame war (maybe it is rekindle). > >My favorite answer is "All of them." If you assume a terrabyte is > > AGREED! However, you should really obtain some production figures to justify that conclusion. >1000000000000 bytes which is 10^12 and the smallest you could expect such a >drive to be. And also assume a DECtape (not DECtape II) has an unformatted >capacity of 2700000 bits which is 337500 bytes. So smallest drive capacity > > I contend that the unformatted capacity of 337500 is completely irrelevant since even if the unformatted capacity had been 10 times that value, it would have made no difference in the number of bytes written to the hard drive. After all, the system reading the DECtape received only the formatted result into memory (the hardware in the controller probably did the reduction). The same information would then be written to the hard drive irrespective of the efficiency of the method used to allow for errors when the DECtape was read and the extra bytes in each sector or block were used to detect if an error was present. >and largest DECtape capacity would give at least 2962962 DECtapes. Larger >drives and smaller capacity tapes only increase this value. We know that >DECtapes used by OS/8 have usable capacity of 283008 bytes. In that case >it would be 3533469 tapes. It is unlikely that even 2.9 million tapes >were manufactured. > The number of DECtapes which were manufactured is really the essential aspect of your (trick?) question. I do agree that since only a DEC user would have ever used a DECtape, less than 2.9 million tapes were ever made. Can anyone who worked at DEC confirm this? I do apologize for starting the flame war when I provided my description of the number of bytes in a terabyte, but that was only to have a simple formula for the number of tapes whose read contents (not the unformatted sectors) could be written onto the hard drive. Jerome Fine From scaron at umich.edu Tue Dec 9 14:08:55 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 15:08:55 -0500 Subject: Nice LSI-11 brochure In-Reply-To: <20141209191436.17F2518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141209191436.17F2518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: That does look like a nice one. Lots of color photos! I've taken recently to collecting non-electronic ephemera related to the industry i.e. IC databooks, application notes, old copies of IEEE Spectrum, BSTJ, etc. So far a fairly inexpensive habit to feed and the potential cognitive hours occupied to dollar ratio is pretty high, IMO. Also much prefer flipping through real paper versus a PDF when at the bench, etc. Always nice to have stuff to read over dinner, too :) Best, Sean On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > There's a nice LSI-11 brochure going on eBay: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/291318103446 > > It's got pictures of a lot of different kinds of cards (useful for ID > purposes), a modest amount of technical content, etc. Definitely worth > having if you're a PDP-11 collector, and can get it for not too much > (I already have one, don't need another... :-) > > Noel > From lists at loomcom.com Tue Dec 9 14:48:04 2014 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 14:48:04 -0600 Subject: Looking for old "PC Connection" catalogs Message-ID: <20141209204804.GA7564@loomcom.com> This is a long shot, and an oddball request, but we're all hoarders here, right? I'm looking for "PC Connection" catalogs from 1989 through 1992. If you have any, please drop me a line. I'd be happy to pay a few bucks for each one, plus mailing costs of course. -Seth From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 9 15:32:53 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 13:32:53 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: <5487550A.2010107@compsys.to> References: <5487550A.2010107@compsys.to> Message-ID: <54876A85.9040409@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/14 12:01 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > you should really obtain some production figures > Yes, just send a Telex to Digital, and I'm sure they'll put top men to work on doing that for you. From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com Tue Dec 9 12:26:19 2014 From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 10:26:19 -0800 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3E82115C1BF@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 19:26:23 -0500 > From: Matt Patoray > > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hello all, > > I have a Mac portable that refuses to even attempt to boot. > > I get random junk on the screen that is different on every power up, no drive activity and no sound. > > I am thinking the onboard surface mount electrolytics are due for replacement. > > I was able to read the values off of most of the caps but I was not able to read the follow caps. C4, C5, C15 and C24. > > Does anyone know what value those caps are? > > Thanks, > > Matt > > Sent from my iPhone I believe that those four caps are all G4 1 50v - there is a close-up picture of C15 and C24 (on right) here: http://regmedia.co.uk/2010/11/08/port_unknown_large.jpg From earl at baugh.org Tue Dec 9 16:22:20 2014 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 17:22:20 -0500 Subject: Looking for Sun-1 Keyboard Message-ID: Hey, I'm looking for a Sun-1 keyboard (between myself and another local collector we have 3 Sun-1's but only 2 Sun-1 keyboards). Does anyone happen to know anyone who might have and extra one they'd be willing to sell? Thanks. Earl From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Dec 9 17:14:11 2014 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 15:14:11 -0800 Subject: Welcome to the Prefix wars Message-ID: <00d801d01405$d7f7aef0$87e70cd0$@computer.org> On Monday, December 08, 2014 8:12 PM Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] >In MS-DOS/PC-DOS 2.00 and above, FDISK reported hard disk capacity in honest binary Megabytes of 1,048,576 I looked for but could not find a screenshot of very early PCDOS FDISKs, the later ones I've found all include the statement 1 MB = 1,048,576 bytes so by that time Microsoft and IBM were indeed "honest" unlike Apple. FWIW, The MS-DOS Encyclopedia (c) 1988 which covers thru DOS 3.3 shows the "Display Partition Data" option as giving capacity in the number of cylinders, not a particularly useful measurement but not misleading. FORMAT and CHKDSK all report in decimal digits without commas. Would like to see a screenshot for an early FDISK Option 1 using binary prefixes before I concede that Microsoft/IBM DOS used but did not disclose binary prefixes before Apple >WHAT missing 490 KB??!? >I recall Seagate referring to the ST225 as "20 Megabyte" (~1985?) Unlike some other manufacturers, they rounded DOWN, not UP, AND they did not use excessive "significant digits". >(That also gave them a lot more slack than their less scrupulous competitors to cover bad sectors) ((In apthecary measures, there are THREE Scruples in every DRAM!)) The published Seagate specification for ST225 that I have states the formatted capacity = 21.4 MB comprising exactly 41,820 x 512 byte sectors = 21.411.840 bytes = 21.4 MB BTW the reason I picked the ST225 as an example rather than the ST412 is that Seagate specified the formatted ST412 with 32 x 256 byte sectors per track giving precisely 10.0 MB (10.027008 MB). IBM in the PC chose to go to 17 x 512 Bytes sectors per track thereby increasing the formatted capacity to 10.7 MB or 10.4 MiB. So a Seagate ST412 used with any of the several IBM PC compatible controllers actually had a dram more than Seagate specified, but in both cases more than 10.0; confusing perhaps but no basis for complaining. But they soon changed to 512 byte sectors and that dram went away. I really don't think Seagate was any more scrupulous than its competition in specifying its drives, as near as I can tell they rounded off, but even if they rounded down it was in the third or higher digit so we are talking about a relatively small number when compared to the confusion caused by binary prefixes. Tom From isking at uw.edu Tue Dec 9 19:55:41 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 17:55:41 -0800 Subject: Some Transputer Bits available. In-Reply-To: <54830A2E.20903@e-bbes.com> References: <5480CF14.2020800@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5482200C.9050007@crash.com> <54830A2E.20903@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I used to take my Harley to a place called "CyclePath" for service, until I learned just how fitting the name was. On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:52 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2014-12-05 22:13, Steven M Jones wrote: > > I believe I've seen a board by Parasytec with similar sounding >> > > You really think, anybody would call his company "parasytec"? > ;-) > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From isking at uw.edu Tue Dec 9 20:04:25 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 18:04:25 -0800 Subject: No such thing as "the PDP" [was RE: Typesafety versus Worse is Better - was Re: Fwd: is there any word processing software for the pdp11?] In-Reply-To: <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: There are artifacts that are good candidates for 'living' restoration, and those that are candidates for 'preservation' as elements of the historical record. Thus do archival science, history and museology intersect, with somewhat unpredictable results at times. :-) On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/4/14 4:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > CHM does have *a* PDP-1 prototype >> > > Correct. DEC's original prototype in funky light brown cabinet paint. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666958 > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From djg at pdp8online.com Tue Dec 9 22:05:48 2014 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 23:05:48 -0500 Subject: Possible equipment available Message-ID: <201412100405.sBA45mLT032608@hugin2.pdp8online.com> A Kenedy 9300 9 track tape drive, formatter, controller to emulate various military drives, Univac 2049 (Canadian USQ-69 like terminal) and ZIP emulator of tape drive may be available. The drive and terminal are large/heavy so shiping isn't practical. If you just need parts for yours I may be able to scavange. Its also possible that I won't be able to get anything. Equipment is in Maryland near DC. Contact me off list if you have interest. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 02:58:37 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 08:58:37 -0000 Subject: Wanted 22-way connectors was RE: No such thing as "the PDP Message-ID: <035401d01457$7d65d3c0$78317b40$@gmail.com> Looking at the Wikipedia pages here, I find it amazing that computer design had moved so quickly between 1953/4 when the Ferranti Pegasus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferranti_Pegasus And IBM 704 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_704 were produced to the PDP-1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-1 looking at the PDP-1 card here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-1#mediaviewer/File:Dec_SYSTEM_BUILDING_BLOC KS_1103.jpg I notice it uses the same PCB connector as my EAI-TR10 Analogue computer. Now whilst I can find the sockets, I can't find any of the PCB mounting plugs, and I "need" one to make an extender card. I can make one up from PCB but it would be nice to have a real plug if any one has one they would be willing to part with. Dave G4UGM From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Dec 10 10:57:37 2014 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:57:37 -0600 Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer Message-ID: <1FB328E8662246A69569DCF2780FB11C@CharlesHPLaptop> I?m trying to find the high voltage power supply board for my old LaserJet IIp+ printer. Several places claim to sell them, but as soon as you order, within a day or two, they are mysteriously ?out of stock, sorry for the error?. A good used one would be fine. thanks for any help. -Charles From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 11:43:15 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:43:15 -0200 Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer In-Reply-To: <1FB328E8662246A69569DCF2780FB11C@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <1FB328E8662246A69569DCF2780FB11C@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: I can find one in Brazil if you like enviado do meu telemovel Em 10/12/2014 14:58, "Charles" escreveu: > I?m trying to find the high voltage power supply board for my old LaserJet > IIp+ printer. > Several places claim to sell them, but as soon as you order, within a day > or two, they are mysteriously ?out of stock, sorry for the error?. > A good used one would be fine. > thanks for any help. > -Charles > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 13:28:06 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:28:06 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141205) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > As for physically stacking tapes on a drive, I suppose you could rig up a > platform that could hold tapes up to the point where the drive was > crushed. I would weigh a reel if I was writing this at home. I will > estimate a reel weighs 4 ounces. That means the 2.9 million tapes would > weigh 725000 lbs or 362 tons. Today while unpacking some more stuff after the move I found the pan from my grandmother's kitchen scales (it was packed in with books and cables, go figure..) Anyway that meant I could weigh a DECtape. The reel in the plastic case weights about 6.75 ounces, the reel on its own (with the tape on it, of course) weighs about 3.8 ounces. So your guess was pretty good. Certainly near enough for this Said scales are of the sliding weight type so there are no springs that could have gone soft over the years. Yes, corrosion probably has affected the weights a bit, but not enough to worry about. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 12:20:57 2014 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:20:57 -0800 Subject: List Still working? Message-ID: I just realized I haven't gotten a message from the list in over a month. wondering if I got dropped or the list is down? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 10 13:43:07 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:43:07 -0500 Subject: List Still working? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems like it's been kind of quiet the last few days but I'm still here :) Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > I just realized I haven't gotten a message from the list in over a month. > wondering if I got dropped or the list is down? > > Paxton > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 14:57:19 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:57:19 -0500 Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer References: <1FB328E8662246A69569DCF2780FB11C@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <9D383FC4CE0745B5B7EF081234CE066D@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer I can find one in Brazil if you like enviado do meu telemovel Em 10/12/2014 14:58, "Charles" escreveu: > I?m trying to find the high voltage power supply board for my old LaserJet > IIp+ printer. > Several places claim to sell them, but as soon as you order, within a day > or two, they are mysteriously ?out of stock, sorry for the error?. > A good used one would be fine. > thanks for any help. > -Charles > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 15:00:50 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:00:50 -0500 Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer References: <1FB328E8662246A69569DCF2780FB11C@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: I've got a IIp (no +) that's destined for the scrapper that was working last time I tried it a few years back; if it's the same PS, no one else offers one, and you're not in a hurry, send me a reminder off-list. I'm in Toronto; a little closer than Brazil but probably not much cheaper, shipping-wise ;-) m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 11:57 AM Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer I?m trying to find the high voltage power supply board for my old LaserJet IIp+ printer. Several places claim to sell them, but as soon as you order, within a day or two, they are mysteriously ?out of stock, sorry for the error?. A good used one would be fine. thanks for any help. -Charles From rhirst at xkl.com Wed Dec 10 15:29:40 2014 From: rhirst at xkl.com (Roy Hirst) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 13:29:40 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact got smaller as it got older, and I did not). Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed the gameplan? Obviously at some tipping point ICs became cheaper and easier than analog components, in 1945 V2 weapon guidance has mechanical gyros, but 15 years later a Minuteman uses quad nand gate ICs. Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? I never had a relationship with a PDP-1, but I could generate similar nostalgia for the first commercial use of VHDL, for instance. Any idea where people like me go to live again my idea of the good old days? Thanks. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/9/2014 6:04 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > There are artifacts that are good candidates for 'living' restoration, and > those that are candidates for 'preservation' as elements of the historical > record. Thus do archival science, history and museology intersect, with > somewhat unpredictable results at times. :-) > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 12/4/14 4:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> CHM does have *a* PDP-1 prototype >> Correct. DEC's original prototype in funky light brown cabinet paint. >> >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666958 >> >> >> > The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu Wed Dec 10 16:25:03 2014 From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:25:03 -0600 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> Message-ID: <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> On 12/10/2014 03:29 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: > I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact > got smaller as it got older, and I did not). > Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in > disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly > changed the gameplan? > Obviously at some tipping point ICs became cheaper and easier than > analog components, in 1945 V2 weapon guidance has mechanical gyros, > but 15 years later a Minuteman uses quad nand gate ICs. Nope, the Minuteman (Autonetics D17) computer continued to use discrete transistors and a fixed-head disk as the main memory for QUITE a number of years. > Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably > some contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? I never had > a relationship with a PDP-1, but I could generate similar nostalgia > for the first commercial use of VHDL, for instance. The PDP-1 was a discrete transistor computer, also. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 17:10:14 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:10:14 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> Message-ID: > Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some > contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? Actually, the DEC system modules used in the PDP-1 through the PDP-6 (I think?) were sort of a bad design. Expensive connectors, restricted airflow, and towards the end they grew too large and unwieldy. The Flip Chip was a huge improvement. The best circa 1960 packaging I have seen probably is in NLS test systems. Why they never jumped into the minicomputer business (or did they?) back then is beyond me, as they had all the puzzle pieces. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 10 17:15:33 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:15:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> Message-ID: <20141210151310.F96887@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Dec 2014, William Donzelli wrote: > The best circa 1960 packaging I have seen probably is in NLS test > systems. Why they never jumped into the minicomputer business (or did > they?) back then is beyond me, as they had all the puzzle pieces. Assumiong that that is the same NLS, . . . in the 1980s, they came up with Kaypro. Darth Vader's Lunchbox was not packaged as nicely as their tiny battery powered oscilloscopes (I had an NLS-215) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 10 17:47:50 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:47:50 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Dec-10, at 2:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/10/2014 03:29 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: >> I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact got smaller as it got older, and I did not). >> Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed the gameplan? >> Obviously at some tipping point ICs became cheaper and easier than analog components, in 1945 V2 weapon guidance has mechanical gyros, but 15 years later a Minuteman uses quad nand gate ICs. > Nope, the Minuteman (Autonetics D17) computer continued to use discrete > transistors and a fixed-head disk as the main memory for QUITE a number > of years. I was going to mention that too, when counting 15 years, but then, minuteman was using triple-nands a couple years later (D-37C), and quad nands were there by 1965, so 20 years from the V2. All of which kind of emphasizes Roy's point of disruptive technologies. So what are some candidates for the most-disruptive? One would be the electronic calculator, which utterly devastated the mechanical calculator business in just a few years. I also liken this sort of discussion to my own experience, as a kid in 1972 I would go from fixing a tube radio on Tuesday, to experimenting with 7400 TTL and 7-segment LED displays on Wednesday. >> Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? I never had a relationship with a PDP-1, but I could generate similar nostalgia for the first commercial use of VHDL, for instance. > The PDP-1 was a discrete transistor computer, also. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 10 17:55:34 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:55:34 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> Message-ID: <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> On 12/10/2014 01:29 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: > I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact > got smaller as it got older, and I did not). > Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in > disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed > the gameplan? Hey, old timeer! You were born in 1925? Congratulations on your upcoming 90th! To my mind, the most disruptive technology involved materials and methods more than anything. Where would we be without, say, zone refining or epoxy (almost as old as the transistor) or plastics? Optics certainly played a part in photolith processes. So-called "disruptive" technology in computing mostly happened because of improved materials and methods to manipulate them. So, I look at, say, graphene as potentially a very disruptive technology. --Chuck From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 18:00:38 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:00:38 -0600 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > All of which kind of emphasizes Roy's point of disruptive technologies. So > what are some candidates for the most-disruptive? One would be the > electronic calculator, which utterly devastated the mechanical calculator > business in just a few years. > And as much as professors tried to keep calculators out of their classrooms, they eventually gave in. Although I'm sure HP's HP-35 error didn't help the student's case in 1972. I also liken this sort of discussion to my own experience, as a kid in 1972 > I would go from fixing a tube radio on Tuesday, to experimenting with 7400 > TTL and 7-segment LED displays on Wednesday. > And now some of us are doing just the same. Just picked up a 1960s TV-7D/U tube tester to check some of my tubes while I catalog them, but other days are spent tinkering with PDP-8/Es. Vacuum tubes are certainly coming back, especially in the audiophile and guitar realms. I think the biggest game changer will be when high-temperature superconductors meet with a small Josephson junction design that can yield quantum computers on people's desks. There likely won't be any single accomplishment there, but rather a series of them. Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 18:05:44 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:05:44 -0600 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2014 01:29 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: > >> I just realized I am the same age as the transistor > > Hey, old timeer! You were born in 1925? Congratulations on your upcoming > 90th! > True, the FET was patented in 1925, and it wasn't until the 1990s that it was proven to have been built. Amazing, considering an overall lack of knowledge of semiconductors; things like sodium and potassium really screw with silicon during fabrication. But surely he means he was born in 1934 and is celebrating his 80th. :) Kyle From radiotest at juno.com Wed Dec 10 18:14:01 2014 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:14:01 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20141210190805.03c89200@juno.com> At 07:00 PM 12/10/2014, Kyle Owen wrote: >Just picked up a 1960s TV-7D/U tube tester to check some of my tubes while I catalog them, but other days are spent tinkering with PDP-8/Es. I own a Hickok 533 and a few other testers, as well as a GR vacuum tube bridge, to ride herd on many vacuum tubes stocked for many vacuum tube instruments and antique radios. I don't get as sophisticated as working with 8s (though I did care for a couple of pdp-8/m systems 30 years ago), I just wrangle some electronics with dedicated microprocessors from the 8080/8085/Z80 family. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Wed Dec 10 18:06:43 2014 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:06:43 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <20141210151310.F96887@shell.lmi.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <20141210151310.F96887@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20141210190132.03c89348@juno.com> At 06:15 PM 12/10/2014, Fred Cisin wrote: >Darth Vader's Lunchbox was not packaged as nicely as their tiny battery powered oscilloscopes (I had an NLS-215) I have never owned an NLS 'scope, but still own two functional Lunchboxes, though neither has been used for anything in the real world since 1991, when I needed a computer that could live on top of a mountain for a few weeks running a speech synthesizer, and I pressed the 4-84 into service for that purpose. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 10 18:23:01 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:23:01 -0600 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> Message-ID: <005901d014d8$9fd78ee0$df86aca0$@classiccmp.org> I'd say he found the right list ;) J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy Hirst Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Seeking disruptive tech I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact got smaller as it got older, and I did not). Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed the gameplan? Obviously at some tipping point ICs became cheaper and easier than analog components, in 1945 V2 weapon guidance has mechanical gyros, but 15 years later a Minuteman uses quad nand gate ICs. Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? I never had a relationship with a PDP-1, but I could generate similar nostalgia for the first commercial use of VHDL, for instance. Any idea where people like me go to live again my idea of the good old days? Thanks. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/9/2014 6:04 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > There are artifacts that are good candidates for 'living' restoration, > and those that are candidates for 'preservation' as elements of the > historical record. Thus do archival science, history and museology > intersect, with somewhat unpredictable results at times. :-) > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 12/4/14 4:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> CHM does have *a* PDP-1 prototype >> Correct. DEC's original prototype in funky light brown cabinet paint. >> >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666958 >> >> >> > The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 10 18:25:58 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:25:58 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5488E496.7040603@sydex.com> On 12/10/2014 04:05 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > True, the FET was patented in 1925, and it wasn't until the 1990s that it > was proven to have been built. Amazing, considering an overall lack of > knowledge of semiconductors; things like sodium and potassium really screw > with silicon during fabrication. But surely he means he was born in 1934 > and is celebrating his 80th. :) And in spite of Brattain, Bardeen and Shockley, what's the ratio of bipolar junction transistors to FETs in that disruptive device of today, the mobile phone? And yet nobody seems to know about Lilienfeld. He's about as obscure as that other computing pioneer Atansasoff in the popular mind. --Chuck From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 18:30:33 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:30:33 -0600 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488E496.7040603@sydex.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> <5488E496.7040603@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > And in spite of Brattain, Bardeen and Shockley, what's the ratio of > bipolar junction transistors to FETs in that disruptive device of today, > the mobile phone? > Pretty low. Processes with SiGe (BiCMOS, etc.) are keeping BJTs alive in the RF side of things, but are still overwhelmed by CMOS. Anyone still using ECL? I-squared L? Hmm... And yet nobody seems to know about Lilienfeld. He's about as obscure as > that other computing pioneer Atansasoff in the popular mind. Even Atanasoff was covered in my classes more than Lilienfeld... Kyle From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 18:39:24 2014 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:39:24 -0600 Subject: MTI storage array Message-ID: My advisor was given an old HP83000 IC tester a few years ago and I got stuck with trying to figure out how to evaluate if it is worth trying to set up. To that end, I am investigating the HP C360 visualize workstation that came with it. It is booting, but there are entries in the fstab that imply that there were more hard drives. It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW I am having trouble even identifying the make and model, let alone finding some sort of manual. Anyone got an idea of what is going on here and possibly where I can source the correct cabling for it? The workstation has 2 scsi busses, an ultrawide single ended and a narrow single ended. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 10 19:17:16 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:17:16 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <09F157D7-F5A7-4F92-98A4-BF4F3003AC11@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Dec-10, at 4:00 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> All of which kind of emphasizes Roy's point of disruptive technologies. So >> what are some candidates for the most-disruptive? One would be the >> electronic calculator, which utterly devastated the mechanical calculator >> business in just a few years. >> > > And as much as professors tried to keep calculators out of their > classrooms, they eventually gave in. Although I'm sure HP's HP-35 error > didn't help the student's case in 1972. > > I also liken this sort of discussion to my own experience, as a kid in 1972 >> I would go from fixing a tube radio on Tuesday, to experimenting with 7400 >> TTL and 7-segment LED displays on Wednesday. >> > > And now some of us are doing just the same. Sure, me too, but at the time they were both (simultaneously) current technologies, one on the way out and one on the way in. > Just picked up a 1960s TV-7D/U > tube tester to check some of my tubes while I catalog them, but other days > are spent tinkering with PDP-8/Es. Vacuum tubes are certainly coming back, > especially in the audiophile and guitar realms. > > I think the biggest game changer will be when high-temperature > superconductors meet with a small Josephson junction design that can yield > quantum computers on people's desks. There likely won't be any single > accomplishment there, but rather a series of them. > > Kyle From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 10 19:17:36 2014 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:17:36 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488DD76.5000504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <02517182-4C56-4B38-9CA5-E6444D8BCFBE@cs.ubc.ca> On 2014-Dec-10, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2014 01:29 PM, Roy Hirst wrote: >> I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact >> got smaller as it got older, and I did not). >> Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in >> disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed >> the gameplan? > > Hey, old timeer! You were born in 1925? Congratulations on your upcoming 90th! > > To my mind, the most disruptive technology involved materials and methods more than anything. " I just want to say one word to you .. plastics " > Where would we be without, say, zone refining or epoxy (almost as old as the transistor) or plastics? Optics certainly played a part in photolith processes. > > So-called "disruptive" technology in computing mostly happened because of improved materials and methods to manipulate them. > So, I look at, say, graphene as potentially a very disruptive technology. > > --Chuck From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 10 19:53:02 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:53:02 -0500 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MTI was pretty much just a... generic... I suppose you'd say, enclosure manufacturer, kind of like Supermicro is. Any MTI box I ever encountered was just a "dumb" enclosure... no smarts... in this case you'd hook it up to a separate RAID controller card in the host (or just a plain old SCSI card); all disks are presented individually i.e. "JBOD". I'm not familiar enough with them to rule out them having perhaps made enclosures with integrated RAID, in which case you'd configure the LUN in the enclosure's management interface, and just those LUNs are presented to the host. The reason I even suspect the latter at all is because there appears to be a RS-232 port on the enclosure in one of the pics. If you're curious, you might try hooking a PC with terminal emulator up to that, with and without a null modem adapter, and see what comes out. A good guess at the comms parameters is 9600 8/N/1. If that doesn't work... :| But I don't think you should concern yourself with that off the bat, just find an appropriate SCSI cable, hook it up to the workstation and see what comes up. Hopefully whatever's there might just be intact, and all you'll need to do is connect it. The cabling is not too difficult to find. If you're on a university campus, probably lots of groups have tons of these laying around in various cabinets gathering dust (SCSI is pretty dated... you see it in production a lot less... many things are now SAS). I know that's certainly the case at U-M! Might be worth asking around your department's IT group. If you do want to buy new, lots of places sell them, here's just a quick example from Googling: http://www.cs-electronics.com/68-pin-cables.htm Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Joseph Lenox wrote: > My advisor was given an old HP83000 IC tester a few years ago and I got > stuck with trying to figure out how to evaluate if it is worth trying to > set up. > > To that end, I am investigating the HP C360 visualize workstation that came > with it. > > It is booting, but there are entries in the fstab that imply that there > were more hard drives. > > It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW > > I am having trouble even identifying the make and model, let alone finding > some sort of manual. > > Anyone got an idea of what is going on here and possibly where I can source > the correct cabling for it? > > The workstation has 2 scsi busses, an ultrawide single ended and a narrow > single ended. > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 10 19:57:18 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:57:18 -0500 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry to reply to my own post... I did want to take back my first sentence; apparently there was a bit more to MTI than I was aware. Nevertheless most of the suggestions in my previous message should be germane to your situation. Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > MTI was pretty much just a... generic... I suppose you'd say, enclosure > manufacturer, kind of like Supermicro is. > > Any MTI box I ever encountered was just a "dumb" enclosure... no smarts... > in this case you'd hook it up to a separate RAID controller card in the > host (or just a plain old SCSI card); all disks are presented individually > i.e. "JBOD". > > I'm not familiar enough with them to rule out them having perhaps made > enclosures with integrated RAID, in which case you'd configure the LUN in > the enclosure's management interface, and just those LUNs are presented to > the host. > > The reason I even suspect the latter at all is because there appears to be > a RS-232 port on the enclosure in one of the pics. If you're curious, you > might try hooking a PC with terminal emulator up to that, with and without > a null modem adapter, and see what comes out. A good guess at the comms > parameters is 9600 8/N/1. If that doesn't work... :| > > But I don't think you should concern yourself with that off the bat, just > find an appropriate SCSI cable, hook it up to the workstation and see what > comes up. Hopefully whatever's there might just be intact, and all you'll > need to do is connect it. > > The cabling is not too difficult to find. If you're on a university > campus, probably lots of groups have tons of these laying around in various > cabinets gathering dust (SCSI is pretty dated... you see it in production a > lot less... many things are now SAS). I know that's certainly the case at > U-M! Might be worth asking around your department's IT group. > > If you do want to buy new, lots of places sell them, here's just a quick > example from Googling: > > http://www.cs-electronics.com/68-pin-cables.htm > > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Joseph Lenox > wrote: > >> My advisor was given an old HP83000 IC tester a few years ago and I got >> stuck with trying to figure out how to evaluate if it is worth trying to >> set up. >> >> To that end, I am investigating the HP C360 visualize workstation that >> came >> with it. >> >> It is booting, but there are entries in the fstab that imply that there >> were more hard drives. >> >> It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW >> >> I am having trouble even identifying the make and model, let alone finding >> some sort of manual. >> >> Anyone got an idea of what is going on here and possibly where I can >> source >> the correct cabling for it? >> >> The workstation has 2 scsi busses, an ultrawide single ended and a narrow >> single ended. >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 10 19:59:50 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:59:50 -0800 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5488FA96.9090607@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/14 4:39 PM, Joseph Lenox wrote: > It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW > Micro Technology, Inc. in Anaheim From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 10 20:02:01 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:02:01 -0800 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5488FB19.1030608@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/14 5:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > MTI was pretty much just a... generic... I suppose you'd say, enclosure > manufacturer, kind of like Supermicro is. > > Any MTI box I ever encountered was just a "dumb" enclosure... no smarts... > Supermicro builds their own cards and motherboards. MTI bought SF2, and got into the RAID biz. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-12-03/business/fi-577_1_silicon-valley From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 20:06:34 2014 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:06:34 -0600 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: <5488FA96.9090607@bitsavers.org> References: <5488FA96.9090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I was thinking more on the lettering on the data ports, and I'm wondering if it's a double-ended Ultra-wide SCSI. The ports look similar to a 68-pin MicroD. I'm a complete noob when it comes to sussing out the SCSI variants and what is and isn't compatible. --Joseph Lenox On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/10/14 4:39 PM, Joseph Lenox wrote: > > It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW >> >> > Micro Technology, Inc. in Anaheim > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 10 20:07:17 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 21:07:17 -0500 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: <5488FB19.1030608@bitsavers.org> References: <5488FB19.1030608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yeah, Supermicro makes very nice motherboards and other products; I just use so many of their JBOD enclosures at work, it's what I associate them with. Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/10/14 5:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> MTI was pretty much just a... generic... I suppose you'd say, enclosure >> manufacturer, kind of like Supermicro is. >> >> Any MTI box I ever encountered was just a "dumb" enclosure... no smarts... >> >> > Supermicro builds their own cards and motherboards. > > MTI bought SF2, and got into the RAID biz. > http://articles.latimes.com/1991-12-03/business/fi-577_1_silicon-valley > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Dec 10 20:12:10 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 21:12:10 -0500 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: References: <5488FA96.9090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The onboard SCSI on the C360 is only single-ended so you won't be able to do differential SCSI unless you have a separate card. The "DE SCSI" label on the back of the MTI would give me pause as well. This stuff all came together? Is there an extra SCSI card installed in the workstation? Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Joseph Lenox wrote: > I was thinking more on the lettering on the data ports, and I'm wondering > if it's a double-ended Ultra-wide SCSI. The ports look similar to a 68-pin > MicroD. > > I'm a complete noob when it comes to sussing out the SCSI variants and what > is and isn't compatible. > > --Joseph Lenox > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 12/10/14 4:39 PM, Joseph Lenox wrote: > > > > It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW > >> > >> > > Micro Technology, Inc. in Anaheim > > > > > > > > > From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 20:16:50 2014 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:16:50 -0600 Subject: MTI storage array In-Reply-To: References: <5488FA96.9090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I didn't spot one, but it was given to us something like 10 years ago. I pulled the case off of this one before a year or so ago, and I'm concerned that it might have gotten lost in the shop and then sent out to be surplus by the student workers. -.-; I've got some cash to spend on it, though, assuming I can find a card that has in-kernel drivers for HP-UX 10.20. --Joseph Lenox On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:12 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > The onboard SCSI on the C360 is only single-ended so you won't be able to > do differential SCSI unless you have a separate card. The "DE SCSI" label > on the back of the MTI would give me pause as well. This stuff all came > together? Is there an extra SCSI card installed in the workstation? > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Joseph Lenox > wrote: > > > I was thinking more on the lettering on the data ports, and I'm wondering > > if it's a double-ended Ultra-wide SCSI. The ports look similar to a > 68-pin > > MicroD. > > > > I'm a complete noob when it comes to sussing out the SCSI variants and > what > > is and isn't compatible. > > > > --Joseph Lenox > > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > On 12/10/14 4:39 PM, Joseph Lenox wrote: > > > > > > It came with this hard drive array: http://imgur.com/a/0JSZW > > >> > > >> > > > Micro Technology, Inc. in Anaheim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu Wed Dec 10 20:52:47 2014 From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:52:47 -0600 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> Message-ID: <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> On 12/10/2014 05:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some >> contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? > Actually, the DEC system modules used in the PDP-1 through the PDP-6 > (I think?) were sort of a bad design. Expensive connectors, restricted > airflow, and towards the end they grew too large and unwieldy. The > Flip Chip was a huge improvement. Yup, the system building blocks were single-sided paper-phenolic boards with a crummy aluminum frame, and these blade-type connectors hand-wired to the board. Germanium transistors, boards that were VERY easy to crack or damage when repairing, and I think no provision for airflow at all. Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 21:48:07 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:48:07 -0700 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/10/2014 05:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>> Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some >>> contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? >> >> Actually, the DEC system modules used in the PDP-1 through the PDP-6 >> (I think?) were sort of a bad design. Expensive connectors, restricted >> airflow, and towards the end they grew too large and unwieldy. The >> Flip Chip was a huge improvement. > > Yup, the system building blocks were single-sided paper-phenolic > boards with a crummy aluminum frame, and these blade-type > connectors hand-wired to the board. Germanium transistors, > boards that were VERY easy to crack or damage when repairing, > and I think no provision for airflow at all. And yet in the late 1950s there weren't really any better logic modules commercially available. It's unsurprising that early modules weren't as good as later ones. For all of the PDP-1's faults that are obvious today with the benefit of hindsight, it was still quite an amazing product at its introduction in 1960, especially give its (then) low price. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 22:05:52 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:05:52 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: > And yet in the late 1950s there weren't really any better logic modules > commercially available. Nonsense. The NLS modules I mentioned were better. The Control Data 3000 series modules were better. The various Univac modules were better. Even SMS was better. Better reliability, better integration density, cheaper to make, etc.. -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 22:25:53 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 21:25:53 -0700 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Nonsense. The NLS modules I mentioned were better. The Control Data > 3000 series modules were better. The various Univac modules were > better. Even SMS was better. Better reliability, better integration > density, cheaper to make, etc.. I thought those were all captive to their vendors, not modules a customer could buy as a standalone and supported product (vs. e.g. service spares). Certainly that was the case for SMS. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 22:36:53 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:36:53 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: > I thought those were all captive to their vendors, not modules a customer could > buy as a standalone and supported product (vs. e.g. service spares). > Certainly that was the case for SMS. What does this have to do with the engineering qualities of the modules? Anyway, I think you could buy just about anything from CDC, in case you wanted to roll your own whatever. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 23:00:22 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:00:22 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <5488C83F.4060603@email.wustl.edu> <7381EC78-BF62-4821-BF75-3DDD1E8DA0E8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > All of which kind of emphasizes Roy's point of disruptive technologies. So what are some candidates for the most-disruptive? Fiber optics completely shook up the "long lines" telecom industry. Continous casting completely shook up the steel industry. The diesel electric locomotive completely shook up the rail industry. And on and on... -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 19:26:04 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:26:04 -0700 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board In-Reply-To: <5486BA75.5060900@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> <5486AAFD.3020807@acc.umu.se> <5486BA75.5060900@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 2:01 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Maybe, but SIPPs (as I've usually seen them called, to distinguish them from > SIPs: see below) are just SIMMs that have pins. Though technically SIP is the correct term. I think you're making a distinction between a SIP IC and a SIP module, but both are correctly called SIP (Single Inline Package). > There's also a once-common type of chip - most commonly memory chips - that > are SIP (not SIPP) packages as opposed to DIP packages. I have a few > machines that use those, too. I haven't seen those, but there was a brief period where RAM chips commonly had a SIP-like package with the leads formed in a staggered dual row arrangement extending from one side of the package body and in the plane of the body, known as a ZIP (Zigzag Inline Package): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/ZIP19%2820%29_Toshiba_DRAM_514256.jpg However, the ZIP package didn't survive long in the market because SIP modules then SIMM and DIMM modules had lower overall manufacturing cost due to the reduced overall pin count compared to socketing individual RAM chips. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 02:46:54 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 01:46:54 -0700 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2014 9:37 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > > > I thought those were all captive to their vendors, not modules a customer could > > buy as a standalone and supported product (vs. e.g. service spares). > > Certainly that was the case for SMS. > > What does this have to do with the engineering qualities of the modules? My statement that you contradicted specifically said commercially available. > Anyway, I think you could buy just about anything from CDC, in case > you wanted to roll your own whatever. Unless they were sold as a supported end-user product, no one in their right mind outside CDC would build anything other than maybe a one-off with them, no matter how much better they were. There were proprietary digital ICs before the standard MECL, RTL, DTL, and TTL families, too, but they didn't see wide adoption for the same reason. Engineers need to build products using supported components, not just stuff thst can be purchased as service spares. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 11 07:59:25 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:59:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking disruptive tech Message-ID: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli >> From: Brent Hilpert >> All of which kind of emphasizes Roy's point of disruptive >> technologies. So what are some candidates for the most-disruptive? > Fiber optics completely shook up the "long lines" telecom industry. > Continous casting completely shook up the steel industry. The diesel > electric locomotive completely shook up the rail industry. And on and > on... Interesting topic, albeit somewhat off-topic for the list. (My apologies for continuing it... :-) Some disruptive technologies are subsets of others; e.g. transistors are in some sense a subset of electrical (altough, as Chuck points out, they also draw on materials science). And how far back do you want to go? The discovery of metals certainly had a huge impact, albeit that it was many thousands of years ago now! But among the big ones for me are electricity, which almost has too many subsets to count (e.g. long distance communication, starting with the telegraph - read "The Victorian Internet" for a good look at how that changed the world), the printing press (information technologies in general have outside weight, since they affect so many other fields), the internal combustion engine (which has physically re-shaped entire civilizations, especially the US), with all its subset (e.g. the airplane)... too many to think of, almost! And it all started with sharp stones... :-) > From: Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com > And yet nobody seems to know about Lilienfeld. I am somewhat ashamed to admit that before today, I had not (that I can recall) heard of him. And I see there is no full-length book on him. A hole waiting to be filled, as it were... Noel From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 09:32:57 2014 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:32:57 +0100 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11 December 2014 at 14:59, Noel Chiappa wrote: > But among the big ones for me are electricity, which almost has too many > subsets to count (e.g. long distance communication, starting with the > telegraph - read "The Victorian Internet" for a good look at how that changed > the world), the printing press (information technologies in general have > outside weight, since they affect so many other fields), the internal > combustion engine (which has physically re-shaped entire civilizations, > especially the US), with all its subset (e.g. the airplane)... too many to > think of, almost! o Soap (try to live without soap - e.g. try to get that tomato sauce off clothing or whatever). Historically one of the most important inventions. Even though the Romans tried to get by without. o Electricity. The closest thing we have to magic in this reality. If there is a universe somewhere without electricity then they would definitely claim that magic does exist here. o Reading and writing - without that we wouldn't have the modern, or even medieval world. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 11 10:26:13 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:26:13 +0000 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Flash memory. Tape -> floppy -> hard drives were evolutionary and the year-on-year compound interest in volume stored is amazing, but only as seen over a decade or three. (Although, seen from the perspective of a century, that?ll maybe look somewhat disruptive). But, per power and volume, flash allows a real discontinuity in the amout of information I can carry around with me. Pocket-sized GPS receivers *with a nationwide road map* internal, gigantic music/video collections in a device the size of my palm, Raspberry Pi and its ilk with a full-up modern OS including self-hosting in a device I can lose in the bottom of a lunchbox - that?s a lot of information density, and the change from ?cabinet size? to ?wristwatch size? was pretty sudden from my perspective. On Dec 11, 2014, at 9:32 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 11 December 2014 at 14:59, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> But among the big ones for me are electricity, which almost has too many... > > o Soap ... From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 11 03:36:41 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:36:41 +0000 Subject: Strange i-con Unibus (?) board In-Reply-To: References: <20141208090912.GA25200@Update.UU.SE> <5486AAFD.3020807@acc.umu.se> <5486BA75.5060900@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <548965A9.70603@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/12/2014 01:26, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 2:01 AM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: >> Maybe, but SIPPs (as I've usually seen them called, to distinguish >> them from SIPs: see below) are just SIMMs that have pins. > > Though technically SIP is the correct term. I think you're making a > distinction between a SIP IC and a SIP module, but both are correctly > called SIP (Single Inline Package). Maybe, but in my experience they're more commonly called SIPPs (Single In-line Pin Package), and were sold as such by some manufacturers (Toshiba, Hyundai, for example). > I haven't seen those, but there was a brief period where RAM chips > commonly had a SIP-like package with the leads formed in a staggered > dual row arrangement extending from one side of the package body and > in the plane of the body, known as a ZIP (Zigzag Inline Package): Yes, I've got machines with those too. I've even got some sockets for them. -- Pete From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 11 05:45:41 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:45:41 +0100 Subject: Paging Andreas Holz Message-ID: <20141211114541.GA8047@Update.UU.SE> Hi Andreas: I need to talk to you regarding the VAX. If there are mailproblems on this end try pontus.pihlgren at gmail.com If anyone else knows that Andreas can't be reached, Please let me know. /Pontus From david at attglobal.net Thu Dec 11 09:04:07 2014 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:04:07 -0500 Subject: Wooden case for DBit power and signal adapters - and a drive too Message-ID: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> Finally feeling guilty enough about stringing a bunch of expensive electronic bits out on my bench whenever time came to use an 8" disk drive, I mounted my DBit-sourced parts and power supply into a case. And the power+smarts sled slides in and out and has little feet on the bottom so it can be re-used with other loose 8" drives too. Some pictures with the least-intrusive Google Drive URLs I could manage: The sled that holds the repurposed PC power supply, FDDC power converter, and FDADAP signal adapter: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0im7ldJkbevMHNRV0s2MzZWcEE/preview?pli=1 The FDADAP doesn't have great mounting capabilities, so I just made a little edge holder out of wood for it. This slides into a cabinet (made of wood scraps...) so that it sits above the floppy drive it's powering: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0im7ldJkbevT1M3QTdsWE9obk0/preview?pli=1 And of course what olden tech thing would be complete without a shiny red button? https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0im7ldJkbevaUVQRkxBbnozVTQ/preview?pli=1 There's room/depth on the front for a bezel, but I'm not sure I'll bother: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0im7ldJkbevSGJRREFxWklTRGc/preview?pli=1 Yeah, the digits on the FDADAP are upside down the way everything ended up being oriented, but I don't suppose I'll be looking at the back from now on. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 11 11:54:23 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:54:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141211094419.Q14529@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Dec 2014, Tor Arntsen wrote: > o Soap (try to live without soap - e.g. try to get that tomato sauce > off clothing or whatever). Historically one of the most important > inventions. Even though the Romans tried to get by without. > o Electricity. The closest thing we have to magic in this reality. If > there is a universe somewhere without electricity then they would > definitely claim that magic does exist here. > o Reading and writing - without that we wouldn't have the modern, or > even medieval world. language agriculture leaving the ocean becoming heterotrophs big bang wifi From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 11 11:58:34 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:58:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: BDV11 ROM programs? Message-ID: <20141211175834.23CC218C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know of anything that documents the contents of the various BDV11 ROMs? In particular, I'm interested in learning what the various halt locations imply. Yes, I know, I could dump them, and disassemble them, but I'm hoping to avoid all that hard work... :-) There seem to be two different ROM sets; 23-046E2/23-045E2, which seem to be an earlier set, as they only understand 56KB of memory; and a later set, SG8326-339E2 and SG8330-340E2 (which might not be DEC standard, the numbers on them are 'odd' - although they might be 23-339E2/23-340E2, the boot ROMs from the 11/23+), which understand up to 4MB of memory. (Interestingly, the latter set are on Intel D2716s, EPROMs, unlike the earlier ones, which are plain PROMs.) Thanks in advance for any help! Noel From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 11 13:24:47 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:24:47 +0000 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E2DB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Tapley, Mark Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:26 AM > Tape -> floppy -> hard drives were evolutionary and the year-on-year ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > compound interest in volume stored is amazing, but only as seen over a > decade or three. (Although, seen from the perspective of a century, > that'll maybe look somewhat disruptive). Evolutionarily, that should be wire => metal tape => plastic tape => metal disks => floppy disks over more than three decades, right? Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 11 13:48:01 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:48:01 +0000 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E328@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 5:59 AM > The discovery of metals certainly had a huge impact, albeit that it was > many thousands of years ago now! [snip] > And it all started with sharp stones... :-) Interestingly, metal affected stone technology for a while. In Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic Europe, we find polished stone axes of a shape which makes no sense from a functional perspective. (They would have been too fragile for actual use.) These are associated with grave goods of apparently high status individuals, and are thought to have been symbolic of their status. The shape of these axes mimics that of *bronze* axes found in the Central Asian steppes and further south. This includes spines which mimic marks from mold casting, so that it is clear that the polished stone axes are the later imitative technology. (A lot of ink was wasted about 40 years ago discussing the cultural significance of the advent of the bronze axes into Europe, but let that go.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 11 14:19:45 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:19:45 +0000 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E2DB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E2DB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <7D630D3E-2678-44E8-B73D-857144DBED12@swri.edu> On Dec 11, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Tapley, Mark > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:26 AM > >> Tape -> floppy -> hard drives were evolutionary and the year-on-year > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ... > Evolutionarily, that should be > > wire => metal tape => plastic tape => metal disks => floppy disks > > over more than three decades, right? > > Rich Right! And I suspect one might trace back even before that, if allowed to include non-magnetic media. Delay lines? But, I was thinking of technologies which are ?disruptive? as only those which are widely adopted (which may be just my own prejudice). Not just everybody had copies of the wire and metal-tape information storage devices, but a good fraction of the population, at least of developed countries, had (plastic) audio tape drives and following. And these days, all those walkmen, floppy and hard drives in laptops, etc. have pretty much been supplanted by PDA?s with a volume of twitter garbage equal to the volume of the library of congress. Not saying we *use* our disruptive technologies in the wisest manner? - Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 11 14:41:05 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E328@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E328@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20141211124018.A14529@shell.lmi.net> > And it all started with sharp stones... :-) Newscaster: And we'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent life forms everywhere. And to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 11 15:13:23 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:13:23 -0800 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E2DB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20141211135925.1182A18C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1E2DB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <548A08F3.5060004@sydex.com> On 12/11/2014 11:24 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Evolutionarily, that should be > > wire => metal tape => plastic tape => metal disks => floppy disks > > over more than three decades, right? I think the floppy disk may be older than the oxide-on-metal disk. cf. The Brush BK-501 Mail-A-Voice. Looks like a floppy to me. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:34:40 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:34:40 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: > My statement that you contradicted specifically said commercially available. Why did you add the whole "commercially available" pat, when I specifically meant the modules that were in the early PDPs? > Unless they were sold as a supported end-user product, no one in their > right mind outside CDC would build anything other than maybe a one-off with > them, no matter how much better they were. CDC had a pretty big chunk of the industrial controls automation market, specifically chemical and oil transport. The often overlooked 1700 minicomputer coupled with the 1500 series real world I/O systems were the keys, all glued together with 3000 series logic modules. Keep in mind that these are not the cordwood nightmares that most people think of. 3000 series parts were of standard construction. And with industrial automation, specifically in the chemical industry, there is constant change. New gizmos and interfaces were being designed all the time. > There were proprietary digital ICs before the standard MECL, RTL, DTL, and > TTL families, too, but they didn't see wide adoption for the same reason. I might think that the combination of high cost and low reliability made for the early IC families being nothing more than stepping stones. -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:50:53 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:50:53 -0700 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Why did you add the whole "commercially available" pat, when I specifically > meant the modules that were in the early PDPs? Because the majority of the modules in the early PDPs *were* commercially available. DEC's original business was selling logic modules. I'm certainly willing to concede that some of the modules you cited may well have been commercially available also; I just was previously unaware of that fact. But certainly SMS modules were not offered as a product by IBM. Was CDC selling those modules in 1959, when the PDP-1 was designed? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 11 17:05:30 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:05:30 +0000 Subject: BDV11 ROM programs? In-Reply-To: <20141211175834.23CC218C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141211175834.23CC218C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <548A233A.7090503@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/12/2014 17:58, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Does anyone know of anything that documents the contents of the various BDV11 > ROMs? In particular, I'm interested in learning what the various halt > locations imply. Well, the binary images are on my website at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ The binary files are 23-045E2.bin and 23-046E2.bin in that directory. That would save you trying to write something to extract the contents from the system; you are aware that although there's 2KW of code in there, it's accessed through a 256-byte (128 word) window in Bank 8 which has to be programmed via the PCR? There are 18 error halts, listed in the BDV11 manual, which I expect is on bitsavers, and on pp107-108 of the PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1980. > There seem to be two different ROM sets; 23-046E2/23-045E2, which seem to be > an earlier set, as they only understand 56KB of memory; and a later set, > SG8326-339E2 and SG8330-340E2 (which might not be DEC standard, the numbers on > them are 'odd' - although they might be 23-339E2/23-340E2, the boot ROMs from > the 11/23+), which understand up to 4MB of memory. They almost certainly are. 23-045E2/23-046E2 are the BDV11 ROMs (there was only ever that one set in public). SG8326 and SG8330 look like date codes, and 1983 would be about right for partway through the life of an 11/23+. Also 23-339E2/23-340E2 are indeed the standard 11/23+ bootstrap/diagnostic ROMs. Perhaps someone's made a "backup copy" and used it as an upgrade, because although DEC did use EPROMs they put standard part numbers on them. If you want to compare, 23-339E2.bin and 23-340E2.bin are also on my website. The 25 error halts for the 11/23+ are listed on pp 611-613 of the Microcomputers and Memories Handbook 1982, and also on pp 47-49 of the PDP-11/23-PLUS System Manual (EK-1T23B-OP-001). > (Interestingly, the latter set are on Intel D2716s, EPROMs, unlike the earlier > ones, which are plain PROMs.) You've already discovered, I imagine, that there are gazillions of ways to set up and use the sockets on a BDV11, and one way is to allow the use of EPROMs in the main socket pair. The settings are in the BDV11 manual - which I have, but can't get to right now, though it's probably on bitsavers as I mentioned above - and also on pages 86-113 of the PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1980. Specifically, W5-W8 and W13 (page 98) set the ROM/EPROM type for the main pair of sockets. For 2716 EPROMs, they should be W5,W6,W8 removed and W7,W13 inserted. That's actually the same as one of the two types of mask ROMs; the other type uses W5 inserted and W13 removed. The difference is due to opposite polarity of one of the three chip selects (CS3). You should also look up the functions of the switches, as they set the bootstrap type, and the LEDs as they tell you something about what's being tested during boot and what errors if it fails. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 11 17:28:19 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:28:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: BDV11 ROM programs? Message-ID: <20141211232819.4482018C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > you are aware that although there's 2KW of code in there, it's accessed > through a 256-byte (128 word) window in Bank 8 which has to be > programmed via the PCR? Yes, thanks. > There are 18 error halts, listed in the BDV11 manual, which I expect is > on bitsavers The Technical Manual is, but not the User Manual (which may not exist, the TM doesn't mention one); the TM doesn't cover the software (in the PROMs), just the hardware. > and on pp107-108 of the PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1980. Ah, didn't know that - thanks, that's useful. It's been a while since I looked at the BDV11 entry there; I was using the BDV11 entry in the Microcomputer Products Handbook. > The 25 error halts for the 11/23+ are listed on pp 611-613 of the > Microcomputers and Memories Handbook 1982, and also on pp 47-49 of the > PDP-11/23-PLUS System Manual (EK-1T23B-OP-001). Ditto (useful). > You've already discovered, I imagine, that there are gazillions of ways > to set up and use the sockets on a BDV11 Yup. Noel From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 11 17:38:35 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:38:35 +0000 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software Message-ID: Hello group I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package along the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. I have used many word processing packages over the years on many machines from 8-bit machines to mainframes. Within the following bounds I'd love to know the packages that have been the favourite of list members over the years and why. If I implement this I'd be looking to keep within the following bounds: * text only - ideally support VT terminal 80x24 or 132x24/36/48 or DOS 80x25 display size. * two printer drivers - text only and Epson LQ (or possibly IBM Proprinter) * support small range of printer specific fonts * support proportional text So a little more than a text-editor but only enough to support simple formatting and styles (bold, italic, underline for example). Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. Kind regards, Mark. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 11 17:38:26 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:38:26 +0000 Subject: BDV11 ROM programs? In-Reply-To: <548A233A.7090503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141211175834.23CC218C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <548A233A.7090503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <548A2AF2.5050409@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/12/2014 23:05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > There are 18 error halts, listed in the BDV11 manual, which I expect is > on bitsavers, and on pp107-108 of the PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces > Handbook 1980. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-BDV11-TM-001_Mar78.pdf > The 25 error halts for the 11/23+ are listed on pp 611-613 of the > Microcomputers and Memories Handbook 1982, and also on pp 47-49 of the > PDP-11/23-PLUS System Manual (EK-1T23B-OP-001). Also pp 11-5 to 11-7 of the KDF11-B CPU Module User's Guide: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1123/KDF11BA_UsersManual.pdf -- Pete A From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 11 17:44:34 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:44:34 +0000 Subject: BDV11 ROM programs? In-Reply-To: <20141211232819.4482018C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141211232819.4482018C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <548A2C62.40203@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/12/2014 23:28, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull >> There are 18 error halts, listed in the BDV11 manual, which I >> expect is on bitsavers > > The Technical Manual is, but not the User Manual (which may not > exist, the TM doesn't mention one); the TM doesn't cover the software > (in the PROMs), just the hardware. So I've just discovered. Sorry! -- Pete From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 11 18:07:49 2014 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:07:49 +0000 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34A182D9-B0EA-4117-9D52-64819FD57714@swri.edu> On Dec 11, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Hello group > > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package along > the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. > > I have used many word processing packages over the years on many machines > from 8-bit machines to mainframes. Within the following bounds I'd love to > know the packages that have been the favourite of list members over the > years and why. Wordstar. Liked it on the Rainbow, really well. Simple control sequences, fast, reliable. But, I didn?t use many of them; the only other I remember was Scripsit on TRS-80 which was so-so. - Mark From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 11 18:08:53 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:08:53 -0800 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> On 12/11/2014 03:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells > and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. Wordstar. Still in use in many places. On 64-bit Linux, I use the Joe editor, which is a pretty close clone. I think the source is freely available--and there are versions available for MS-DOS and Windows. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 18:21:52 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:21:52 -0500 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: > Because the majority of the modules in the early PDPs *were* commercially > available. DEC's original business was selling logic modules. I do not give a care about if they were available commercially or not. I am not sure why you brought it up in the first place. My point is that from an engineering standpoint, the system building blocks were not very good, compared with what other vendors had. > Was CDC selling those modules in 1959, when the PDP-1 was designed? No, maybe 1962? I am not about to go and do the research, but DEC was only one of many companies that made standalone logic modules back in 1960. I am not about to say that the system building blocks were the top of the heap. -- Will From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:22:08 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:22:08 -0700 Subject: Seeking disruptive tech In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D1740C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20141204162516.03d30a98@juno.com> <5480F987.3080500@bitsavers.org> <5480FCA0.5020701@bitsavers.org> <5488BB44.8020206@xkl.com> <548906FF.2080605@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 5:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Because the majority of the modules in the early PDPs *were* commercially >> available. DEC's original business was selling logic modules. > > I do not give a care about if they were available commercially or not. > I am not sure why you brought it up in the first place. > > My point is that from an engineering standpoint, the system building > blocks were not very good, compared with what other vendors had. In the absence of evidence of other commercially available logic modules that DEC could have used instead when designing the PDP-1 in 1959, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Certainly the DEC System Modules weren't as good as things that came later, and obviously DEC recognized that, because they replaced them. If they didn't replace them as soon as you think they should have, presumably that's due to inertia; the reality was that both the System Modules and the products made from them sold pretty well. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:29:00 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:29:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? Message-ID: If anyone happens to have a spare Apple IIgs power supply that they'd be willing to sell for lower than eBay prices, I could really use one. On eBay, the power supply often sells for more than the whole computer. I will replace the failed capacitor in the power supply that I have, but unfortunately when it smoked and burst, it got smelly resinous crap all over the PCB, other components, and the inside of the power supply case, so I'd prefer to put in another power supply than constantly fill the house with fumes from this one. Thanks! Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 11 20:50:53 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:50:53 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question Message-ID: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> I've been playing around with some SCSI tape drives and noticed something peculiar--or not intuitive. Perhaps someone can explain it. I'm doing a READ_6 (6 byte CDB) with the fixed bit 0 and a 65KB buffer. So the sense data coming back returns the residual byte count, as it should with the ILI bit set in the sense key. So far, so good. Now, when I come to a filenark, I'm expecting that the filemark bit (bit 7) will be set in the sense key. It doesn't happen, the result just comes back as 0 bytes read and a normal (NO_SENSE) sense result. The additional sense code and sense qualifier bytes are also 0. Is this normal behavior? I'dve thought that the filemark bit would be set in every case of a filemark being read. My X3T9 documents don't mention this behavior, but maybe I missed something. --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 21:23:47 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 01:23:47 -0200 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? References: Message-ID: <835A4C793CE34E2F8A0A67EC2479BBFE@deskjara> And I just need the power supply enclosure. I'd rather use a new ATX power supply than use the old apple clunker... --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 12:29 AM Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? > If anyone happens to have a spare Apple IIgs power supply that they'd > be willing to sell for lower than eBay prices, I could really use one. > On eBay, the power supply often sells for more than the whole > computer. > > I will replace the failed capacitor in the power supply that I have, > but unfortunately when it smoked and burst, it got smelly resinous > crap all over the PCB, other components, and the inside of the power > supply case, so I'd prefer to put in another power supply than > constantly fill the house with fumes from this one. > > Thanks! > Eric From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 23:16:24 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:16:24 -0600 Subject: [rescue] Inside Solaris newsletter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > I've followed up off-list, so hopefully my additional issues will be > available online at some point. I'm happy to say that the issues Andrew sent to me a few weeks back have made it through my scan queue, endured some archive.org index weirdness and are now online. There are now 52 issues of Inside Solaris to enjoy over your $holiday: https://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Ainsidesolaris&sort=-date (Some of the metadata was incomplete, causing them to present out of order. I just fixed it but the changes haven't indexed yet...perhaps soon...?) -j From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 12 02:51:25 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 02:51:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2014, Eric Smith wrote: > If anyone happens to have a spare Apple IIgs power supply that they'd be > willing to sell for lower than eBay prices, I could really use one. On > eBay, the power supply often sells for more than the whole computer. > > I will replace the failed capacitor in the power supply that I have, but > unfortunately when it smoked and burst, it got smelly resinous crap all > over the PCB, other components, and the inside of the power supply case, > so I'd prefer to put in another power supply than constantly fill the > house with fumes from this one. Isopropyl alcohol* and a toothbrush will clean off the capacitor mess and magic smoke residue. It won't hurt the other components to get them wet with alcohol or even water if you need to rinse it. Isopropyl alcohol might damage or remove printing from certain types of labels though, so be careful of those. [* -Not- "denatured" or wood alcohol, normally used for thinning shellac, which has different chemical additives that are extremely toxic.] From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 12 06:18:45 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:18:45 +0000 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 06:50:53PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: [...] > Now, when I come to a filenark, I'm expecting that the filemark bit (bit 7) > will be set in the sense key. It doesn't happen, the result just comes back > as 0 bytes read and a normal (NO_SENSE) sense result. The additional sense > code and sense qualifier bytes are also 0. > Is this normal behavior? I'dve thought that the filemark bit would be set in > every case of a filemark being read. My X3T9 documents don't mention this > behavior, but maybe I missed something. My copy of the *draft* standard states "If the logical unit encounters a filemark during a READ command, CHECK CONDITION status shall be returned and the filemark and valid bits shall be set to one in the sense data" but perhaps the final standard decided to be different for perverse reasons. Draft copies of questionable provenance is what everybody's working from though, because the final versions are $$$. Note that there are *three* different types of end-of-X event with tape: end-of-file at a filemark, end-of-medium indicating the logical end of the recording, and end-of-tape where it's flapping off the reel (which is always "fun" when it happens to QIC cartridges). If the tape has been reused, there may be data between end-of-recording and end-of-tape, but you're probably not going to get at it from SCSI-space. The behaviour you describe dovetails nicely with the POSIX API which indicates EOF by returning zero to a read() call. On Linux, the next read() call then starts reading the next file. I had to check the man page to remind me what happens at end-of-medium: it's indicated by two consecutive EOFs followed by "an error" (not stated, but EIO seems likely), which can alternatively be viewed as an empty file followed by something to break applications that didn't take the hint the first time. Anyway, this suggests an alternative API that your drive might be (incorrectly) providing, and perhaps you will get two sequential zero-length reads and/or a sense error and filemark bit only at end-of-medium. I would certainly also check out the source for Linux's SCSI tape driver. The Linux kernel takes a somewhat pragmatic approach in the face of dodgy hardware, so there are loads of edge cases with accompanying rants explaining in technical detail just why such-and-such a device is a steaming pile. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 08:41:21 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:41:21 -0000 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards Message-ID: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> Folks, Any one got any of these Radio Shack boards lurking that they would sell and ship to the UK? The 275-190 looks best, there is one on E-Bay now but at $20 plus $18 for shipping to the UK its getting very expensive.. . Actually looking at DigiKey that's cheap. $33 for a new board with no shipping. 276-180 276-152 276-190 Or actually any thing with a 22/44 way 0.156" connector. Dave G4UGM From scaron at umich.edu Fri Dec 12 09:15:28 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:15:28 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured alcohol nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You definitely shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the optic nerve - which is why drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) but other than that, I wouldn't say it's particularly more harmful to you, boards or components than isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to drink that, either! Best, Sean On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2014, Eric Smith wrote: > > If anyone happens to have a spare Apple IIgs power supply that they'd be >> willing to sell for lower than eBay prices, I could really use one. On >> eBay, the power supply often sells for more than the whole computer. >> >> I will replace the failed capacitor in the power supply that I have, but >> unfortunately when it smoked and burst, it got smelly resinous crap all >> over the PCB, other components, and the inside of the power supply case, so >> I'd prefer to put in another power supply than constantly fill the house >> with fumes from this one. >> > > Isopropyl alcohol* and a toothbrush will clean off the capacitor mess and > magic smoke residue. It won't hurt the other components to get them wet > with alcohol or even water if you need to rinse it. Isopropyl alcohol might > damage or remove printing from certain types of labels though, so be > careful of those. > > [* -Not- "denatured" or wood alcohol, normally used for thinning shellac, > which has different chemical additives that are extremely toxic.] > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Dec 12 09:16:20 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha. Wood methanol. Wood alcohol, aka methanol. Sorry. Best, Sean On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured alcohol > nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You definitely > shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde > via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the optic nerve - which is > why drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) but other than that, I > wouldn't say it's particularly more harmful to you, boards or components > than isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to drink that, either! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Dec 2014, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> If anyone happens to have a spare Apple IIgs power supply that they'd be >>> willing to sell for lower than eBay prices, I could really use one. On >>> eBay, the power supply often sells for more than the whole computer. >>> >>> I will replace the failed capacitor in the power supply that I have, but >>> unfortunately when it smoked and burst, it got smelly resinous crap all >>> over the PCB, other components, and the inside of the power supply case, so >>> I'd prefer to put in another power supply than constantly fill the house >>> with fumes from this one. >>> >> >> Isopropyl alcohol* and a toothbrush will clean off the capacitor mess and >> magic smoke residue. It won't hurt the other components to get them wet >> with alcohol or even water if you need to rinse it. Isopropyl alcohol might >> damage or remove printing from certain types of labels though, so be >> careful of those. >> >> [* -Not- "denatured" or wood alcohol, normally used for thinning shellac, >> which has different chemical additives that are extremely toxic.] >> > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Dec 12 10:23:53 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:23:53 -0500 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry can't help with the board but if you're looking at the same 276-190 that I am priced on sale @ $21.00 with free ship to all US destinations, I can offer a seller endorsement; I've bought VAXen and VAX parts from them quite a few times and they ship quick & are easy to work with... they also are good about accepting reasonable offers on items. I have no clue who that individual is but they have a huge stash of neat stuff they are selling off... Best, Sean On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Folks, > > > > Any one got any of these Radio Shack boards lurking that they would sell > and > ship to the UK? The 275-190 looks best, there is one on E-Bay now but at > $20 > plus $18 for shipping to the UK its getting very expensive.. > > . Actually looking at DigiKey that's cheap. $33 for a new board with no > shipping. > > > > 276-180 > > 276-152 > > 276-190 > > > > Or actually any thing with a 22/44 way 0.156" connector. > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 12 10:44:35 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:44:35 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15:28AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured alcohol > nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You definitely > shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde > via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the optic nerve - which is why > drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) but other than that, I wouldn't > say it's particularly more harmful to you, boards or components than > isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to drink that, either! Wikpedia references EU Regulation 162/2013, which gives the various recipes across the EU: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2013:049:0055:0061:EN:PDF Taking a random sample from a few different countries, the basic recipe seems to be 1% mixed crud to make it unpalatable, up to 10% methanol, and the rest ethanol. The ethanol and methanol will evaporate readily enough, but I'd be somewhat concerned about residue left from non-volatile components of the 1%. It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get hold of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free delivery. If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. From charles at uniwho.com Fri Dec 12 10:52:53 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:52:53 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: just just acetone? it works the best anyways. On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15:28AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: >> I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured alcohol >> nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You definitely >> shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde >> via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the optic nerve - which is why >> drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) but other than that, I wouldn't >> say it's particularly more harmful to you, boards or components than >> isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to drink that, either! > > Wikpedia references EU Regulation 162/2013, which gives the various recipes > across the EU: > http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2013:049:0055:0061:EN:PDF > > Taking a random sample from a few different countries, the basic recipe seems > to be 1% mixed crud to make it unpalatable, up to 10% methanol, and the rest > ethanol. The ethanol and methanol will evaporate readily enough, but I'd be > somewhat concerned about residue left from non-volatile components of the 1%. > > It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get hold of. I > can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free delivery. If anything, > it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 12 10:54:04 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:54:04 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 04:18 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > My copy of the *draft* standard states "If the logical unit encounters a > filemark during a READ command, CHECK CONDITION status shall be returned and > the filemark and valid bits shall be set to one in the sense data" but perhaps > the final standard decided to be different for perverse reasons. Draft copies > of questionable provenance is what everybody's working from though, because the > final versions are $$$. Well, this is just odd--if I do my read not as variable length, but rather using specified block size and the "fixed" bit (bit 0 of byte 1 in the READ command), I do indeed get the filemark indication. I'll have a look at the *nix tape driver code, but AFAIK, the standard tape handlers for Linux and Unix depend on the block length being explicitly specified in a MODE SELECT command. When doing variable-length reads, this block length is 0. And yes, I can read past double filemarks and get to the previously written data. Eventually, a blank media or EOM condition arises and calls a halt to things. Recently, I ran into a case where the double-filemark was an accident--a zero-length file was written, so the disrespect for double filemarks is necessary. I've got an old X3T9 spec here, as well as a few vendors' manuals and the strange non-filemark behavior isn't detailed--however, it's simple enough to translate this into the expected "filemark-sensed" code. It's not a stumble, just curiosity. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 11:08:31 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:08:31 -0000 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> Thanks Sean, shipping to the UK is quoted at $18. I will see if my son will buy it and bring it back when he comes home at Christmas. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean > Caron > Sent: 12 December 2014 16:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron > Subject: Re: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards > > Sorry can't help with the board but if you're looking at the same 276-190 that > I am priced on sale @ $21.00 with free ship to all US destinations, I can offer a > seller endorsement; I've bought VAXen and VAX parts from them quite a > few times and they ship quick & are easy to work with... they also are good > about accepting reasonable offers on items. I have no clue who that > individual is but they have a huge stash of neat stuff they are selling off... > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > Any one got any of these Radio Shack boards lurking that they would > > sell and ship to the UK? The 275-190 looks best, there is one on E-Bay > > now but at > > $20 > > plus $18 for shipping to the UK its getting very expensive.. > > > > . Actually looking at DigiKey that's cheap. $33 for a new board with > > no shipping. > > > > > > > > 276-180 > > > > 276-152 > > > > 276-190 > > > > > > > > Or actually any thing with a 22/44 way 0.156" connector. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > G4UGM > > > > > > > > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Dec 12 11:10:51 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:10:51 +0100 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-12 17:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2014 04:18 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > >> My copy of the *draft* standard states "If the logical unit encounters a >> filemark during a READ command, CHECK CONDITION status shall be >> returned and >> the filemark and valid bits shall be set to one in the sense data" but >> perhaps >> the final standard decided to be different for perverse reasons. >> Draft copies >> of questionable provenance is what everybody's working from though, >> because the >> final versions are $$$. > > Well, this is just odd--if I do my read not as variable length, but > rather using specified block size and the "fixed" bit (bit 0 of byte 1 > in the READ command), I do indeed get the filemark indication. > > I'll have a look at the *nix tape driver code, but AFAIK, the standard > tape handlers for Linux and Unix depend on the block length being > explicitly specified in a MODE SELECT command. When doing > variable-length reads, this block length is 0. I don't know much of anything about the low level SCSI details here. So I can't comment on that. > And yes, I can read past double filemarks and get to the previously > written data. Eventually, a blank media or EOM condition arises and > calls a halt to things. Recently, I ran into a case where the > double-filemark was an accident--a zero-length file was written, so the > disrespect for double filemarks is necessary. Two tape marks is just a convention used by some software to indicate the logical EOT. It has no special meaning for the hardware. In fact, standard ANSI formatted tapes can legally contain two consecutive tape marks without it being the EOT. ANSI instead have a special record to indicate EOT. Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 12 11:29:45 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 09:29:45 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <548B2609.1000206@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 09:10 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Two tape marks is just a convention used by some software to indicate > the logical EOT. It has no special meaning for the hardware. In fact, > standard ANSI formatted tapes can legally contain two consecutive tape > marks without it being the EOT. ANSI instead have a special record to > indicate EOT. Old tapes are extremely variable on their use of ANSI labels, so when archiving, I'll read as far as possible (i.e. either to EOT or a "blank media" exception. And then there's Unix/Linux and many other OSes that don't give a fig about ANSI labels. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Dec 12 11:45:04 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:45:04 +0100 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B2609.1000206@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> <548B2609.1000206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548B29A0.50900@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-12 18:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2014 09:10 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Two tape marks is just a convention used by some software to indicate >> the logical EOT. It has no special meaning for the hardware. In fact, >> standard ANSI formatted tapes can legally contain two consecutive tape >> marks without it being the EOT. ANSI instead have a special record to >> indicate EOT. > > Old tapes are extremely variable on their use of ANSI labels, so when > archiving, I'll read as far as possible (i.e. either to EOT or a "blank > media" exception. You mean old OSes...? :-) > And then there's Unix/Linux and many other OSes that don't give a fig > about ANSI labels. Even for OSes that do give a fig about ANSI labels, they are not the bible. You can read the tapes without using that layer on any OS... It's just another layer you can use in between, to give some more structure. Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 12 12:32:06 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:32:06 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B29A0.50900@update.uu.se> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> <548B2609.1000206@sydex.com> <548B29A0.50900@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <548B34A6.3080702@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 09:45 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > You mean old OSes...? :-) Maybe, but it's usually the case here that I can't render that opinion (or usually even the age of the tape) until I've read and analyzed the contents before I can determine the OS. In fact, on some tapes, the OS remains completely unknown--just a bunch of ASCII files separated by filemarks... And what's your definition of "old"? :) --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 12:52:37 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:52:37 -0600 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: FWIW If you take a look at eBay Sold Items, in late September, a 276-190 sold for $6 inclusive of US shipping. It only took one bid, so it seems like the competition isn't too tight. On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Thanks Sean, shipping to the UK is quoted at $18. I will see if my son > will buy it and bring it back when he comes home at Christmas. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean > > Caron > > Sent: 12 December 2014 16:24 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron > > Subject: Re: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards > > > > Sorry can't help with the board but if you're looking at the same > 276-190 that > > I am priced on sale @ $21.00 with free ship to all US destinations, I > can offer a > > seller endorsement; I've bought VAXen and VAX parts from them quite a > > few times and they ship quick & are easy to work with... they also are > good > > about accepting reasonable offers on items. I have no clue who that > > individual is but they have a huge stash of neat stuff they are selling > off... > > > > Best, > > > > Sean > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Dave G4UGM > > wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Any one got any of these Radio Shack boards lurking that they would > > > sell and ship to the UK? The 275-190 looks best, there is one on E-Bay > > > now but at > > > $20 > > > plus $18 for shipping to the UK its getting very expensive.. > > > > > > . Actually looking at DigiKey that's cheap. $33 for a new board with > > > no shipping. > > > > > > > > > > > > 276-180 > > > > > > 276-152 > > > > > > 276-190 > > > > > > > > > > > > Or actually any thing with a 22/44 way 0.156" connector. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > G4UGM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 12 12:57:05 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:57:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards Message-ID: <20141212185705.95DB218C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sean Caron > I can offer a seller endorsement; I've bought VAXen and VAX parts from > them quite a few times and they ship quick & are easy to work with... > they also are good about accepting reasonable offers on items. I have > no clue who that individual is but they have a huge stash of neat stuff > they are selling off... Oh, ComUsed/TopLine! Yes, they are really quite good, along all axes. I deal with them a great deal, it seems like I drive up to DC about once a month to pick up large/heavy items from them! :-) Their place is pretty amazing - it looks like something out of one of the seedy backwaters from a William Gibson book; on the inside, it's stacked to the rafters (literally!) with old stuff (albeit considerably better organized than the typical Gibson gomi collector's :-). Their business is buying and selling used computer stuff; e.g. they do a lot of business in used printers. Much of the large amount of PDP-11/VAX/DEC stuff they have/had came from the estate of a major DEC collector who died; somewhat to their amazement, I think, they've found that it sells well! I have the impression they've picked up other groups of stuff too, although none as large as that. They tend not to have complete systems of any size (some smallish LSI11's is about it), they don't have a lot of room; but the prices are usually hard to beat. Can definitely recommend them, along all axes. Noel From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 12 15:02:17 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:02:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: > On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15:28AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured >>> alcohol nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You >>> definitely shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized >>> to formaldehyde via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the >>> optic nerve - which is why drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) >>> but other than that, I wouldn't say it's particularly more harmful to >>> you, boards or components than isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to >>> drink that, either! >> >> Wikpedia references EU Regulation 162/2013, which gives the various recipes >> across the EU: >> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2013:049:0055:0061:EN:PDF >> >> Taking a random sample from a few different countries, the basic recipe >> seems to be 1% mixed crud to make it unpalatable, up to 10% methanol, >> and the rest ethanol. The ethanol and methanol will evaporate readily >> enough, but I'd be somewhat concerned about residue left from >> non-volatile components of the 1%. >> >> It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get >> hold of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free >> delivery. If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. > > just just acetone? it works the best anyways. Sure...if you want to dissolve the epoxy substrate, any number of plastic or rubber-like compounds (capacitor end seals, anyone?), or the enamel coating on magnet wire... From scaron at umich.edu Fri Dec 12 15:03:56 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:03:56 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I thought he was joking? I hope nobody would use acetone! LOL Best, Sean On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: > >> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15:28AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: >>> >>> I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured alcohol >>>> nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You definitely >>>> shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde >>>> via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the optic nerve - which is >>>> why drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) but other than that, I >>>> wouldn't say it's particularly more harmful to you, boards or components >>>> than isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to drink that, either! >>>> >>> >>> Wikpedia references EU Regulation 162/2013, which gives the various >>> recipes >>> across the EU: >>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri= >>> OJ:L:2013:049:0055:0061:EN:PDF >>> >>> Taking a random sample from a few different countries, the basic recipe >>> seems to be 1% mixed crud to make it unpalatable, up to 10% methanol, and >>> the rest ethanol. The ethanol and methanol will evaporate readily enough, >>> but I'd be somewhat concerned about residue left from non-volatile >>> components of the 1%. >>> >>> It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get hold >>> of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free delivery. >>> If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. >>> >> >> just just acetone? it works the best anyways. >> > > Sure...if you want to dissolve the epoxy substrate, any number of plastic > or rubber-like compounds (capacitor end seals, anyone?), or the enamel > coating on magnet wire... > From charles at uniwho.com Fri Dec 12 15:04:53 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:04:53 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> everyday all the time smartypants On Dec 12, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I thought he was joking? I hope nobody would use acetone! LOL > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: >> >>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15:28AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured alcohol >>>>> nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. You definitely >>>>> shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde >>>>> via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde attacks the optic nerve - which is >>>>> why drinking wood methanol makes you go blind) but other than that, I >>>>> wouldn't say it's particularly more harmful to you, boards or components >>>>> than isopropanol is. You wouldn't want to drink that, either! >>>>> >>>> >>>> Wikpedia references EU Regulation 162/2013, which gives the various >>>> recipes >>>> across the EU: >>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri= >>>> OJ:L:2013:049:0055:0061:EN:PDF >>>> >>>> Taking a random sample from a few different countries, the basic recipe >>>> seems to be 1% mixed crud to make it unpalatable, up to 10% methanol, and >>>> the rest ethanol. The ethanol and methanol will evaporate readily enough, >>>> but I'd be somewhat concerned about residue left from non-volatile >>>> components of the 1%. >>>> >>>> It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get hold >>>> of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free delivery. >>>> If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. >>>> >>> >>> just just acetone? it works the best anyways. >>> >> >> Sure...if you want to dissolve the epoxy substrate, any number of plastic >> or rubber-like compounds (capacitor end seals, anyone?), or the enamel >> coating on magnet wire... >> From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 12 11:48:40 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 09:48:40 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548B2A78.1080405@bitsavers.org> On 12/12/14 8:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2014 04:18 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > >> My copy of the *draft* standard states "If the logical unit encounters a >> filemark during a READ command, CHECK CONDITION status shall be returned and >> the filemark and valid bits shall be set to one in the sense data" but perhaps >> the final standard decided to be different for perverse reasons. Draft copies >> of questionable provenance is what everybody's working from though, because the >> final versions are $$$. > > Well, this is just odd--if I do my read not as variable length, but rather using specified block size and the "fixed" bit (bit 0 of byte 1 in the READ command), I do indeed get the filemark indication. > > I'll have a look at the *nix tape driver code, but AFAIK, the standard tape handlers for Linux and Unix depend on the block length being explicitly specified in a MODE SELECT command. When doing > variable-length reads, this block length is 0. > This is bringing back a lot of bad memories.. You may want to look at https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ and John Wilson's tapeio routines I've run into problems with tapecopy where it gets stuck in an infinite loop writing -1 byte blocks if it ever runs into a bad block. I'll have to look at the SCSI code I wrote back in 2001 for my direct SCSI tape reader on MacOS but I'm pretty sure I ended up having to read fixed-length 64k blocks there. This gunk was creeping back up on my todo list as I really do need to retire my G3 powerbook that I use for tape reading, mostly because I've been 'upgrading' my servers and they no longer understand AFP that OS9 uses. From billdeg at buzz1.com Fri Dec 12 12:20:23 2014 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:20:23 -0500 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software Message-ID: <7c6c7bba$55bf029a$dc40c00$@buzz1.com> > Hello group > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package along the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. > So a little more than a text-editor but only enough to support simple formatting and styles (bold, italic, underline for example). > > Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. Mark, As a programmer I used to use QEDIT most of the time because it made it easy to edit by column as well as row, mark/move text, easy keystroke commands. The copy I have is saved as q.exe. It was better than notepad and I continued to use it well past it's era. Still hard to edit by column when your parsing text without being forced to use a spreadsheet program. Sounds like you're talking more of a word processor though. So, I'd put in my vote for something like IBM Personal Editor (PEDIT) which gave a person a lot of functionality with little RAM overhead. I never really liked WordStar or Word Perfect myself, but I used what I had available. As far as formatting to the printer goes, I suggest you include the capacity to enter printer codes manually so that you can use most any type of printer that accepts them. I remember inserting codes into programs that were used for a specific printer that way. If you have the manual and given you're talking simple print capabilities you would not need to supply drivers. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 12 12:41:50 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:41:50 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B2A78.1080405@bitsavers.org> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B2A78.1080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <548B36EE.3060705@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 09:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > This is bringing back a lot of bad memories.. > > You may want to look at > https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ > and John Wilson's tapeio routines I've seen those, but encountered issues with them and decided the only route was to roll my own. Nothing new--I simply went back to my old production code that I wrote around 1990 to handle SCSI tape drives in general (DDS, DLT, SLT) and resurrected some things. But, like a lot of code, my old code worked with tape of *known* format. Working with completely unknown formats has been interesting, to say the least. Thankfully, I've been spared the issue of "long" tapes--that is, tapes with physical blocks longer than 65KB--I know they're out there, though. --Chuck From other at oryx.cc Fri Dec 12 13:03:53 2014 From: other at oryx.cc (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:03:53 -0600 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548B3C19.9030104@oryx.cc> Enable OA available on DOS, OS/2 and several Unix flavors. Jerry On 12/11/14 05:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Hello group > > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package along > the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. > > I have used many word processing packages over the years on many machines > from 8-bit machines to mainframes. Within the following bounds I'd love to > know the packages that have been the favourite of list members over the > years and why. > > If I implement this I'd be looking to keep within the following bounds: > > * text only - ideally support VT terminal 80x24 or 132x24/36/48 or DOS > 80x25 display size. > * two printer drivers - text only and Epson LQ (or possibly IBM Proprinter) > * support small range of printer specific fonts > * support proportional text > > So a little more than a text-editor but only enough to support simple > formatting and styles (bold, italic, underline for example). > > Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells > and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. > > Kind regards, Mark. > From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 13:34:26 2014 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:34:26 -0600 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <7c6c7bba$55bf029a$dc40c00$@buzz1.com> References: <7c6c7bba$55bf029a$dc40c00$@buzz1.com> Message-ID: Obviously you just need to go whole-hog and implement TeX and let the user just write with vi or emacs :D --Joseph Lenox On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:20 PM, B Degnan wrote: > > > Hello group > > > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package > along > the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. > > > So a little more than a text-editor but only enough to support > simple > formatting and styles (bold, italic, underline for example). > > > > Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many > 'bells > and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. > > Mark, > > As a programmer I used to use QEDIT most of the time because it made it > easy to edit by column as well as row, mark/move text, easy keystroke > commands. The copy I have is saved as q.exe. It was better than notepad > and I continued to use it well past it's era. Still hard to edit by column > when your parsing text without being forced to use a spreadsheet program. > > Sounds like you're talking more of a word processor though. So, I'd put in > my vote for something like IBM Personal Editor (PEDIT) which gave a person > a lot of functionality with little RAM overhead. I never really liked > WordStar or Word Perfect myself, but I used what I had available. > > As far as formatting to the printer goes, I suggest you include the > capacity to enter printer codes manually so that you can use most any type > of printer that accepts them. I remember inserting codes into programs > that were used for a specific printer that way. If you have the manual and > given you're talking simple print capabilities you would not need to supply > drivers. > > Bill > From cruff at ruffspot.net Fri Dec 12 13:56:44 2014 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:56:44 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 2, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75295C31-D878-4462-92EF-A1401584D329@ruffspot.net> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote; > Subject: SCSI tape question > Now, when I come to a filenark, I'm expecting that the filemark bit (bit > 7) will be set in the sense key. It doesn't happen, the result just > comes back as 0 bytes read and a normal (NO_SENSE) sense result. The > additional sense code and sense qualifier bytes are also 0. I wrote the SCSI tape drivers for the Unix based version of the NCAR Mass Storage System (MSS) Storage Manager servers, we moved a few petabytes of data through them. It made use of the SCSI generic interfaces of Irix, Solaris and Linux, but we couldn't trust the default OS tape drive driver behaviors would do the right thing for an archive. You should be able to detect file mark indications in either the variable length or fixed block read modes. When the tape (or drive controller buffer position for those that perform buffering) is positioned at the file mark, you will get a check condition response to the issuance of the read command, then you (or the SCSI generic driver) issue the read sense command (immediately after the read, no other intervening commands!) and the file mark bit will be set in the sense buffer. For the generic SCSI devices, you can typically tell the driver to perform an auto sense for check condition responses. Just make sure you have properly told the driver where to put the sense data. I suppose a drive could have a manufacturer specific mode that could hide file marks, but I've never seen one. We did make use of manufacturer specific procedures to place the read head beyond the detected EOT mark so we could recover tapes that had been accidentally overwritten in the middle of recorded data. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 12 14:30:22 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:30:22 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 2, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: <75295C31-D878-4462-92EF-A1401584D329@ruffspot.net> References: <75295C31-D878-4462-92EF-A1401584D329@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: <548B505E.1060206@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 11:56 AM, Craig Ruff wrote: > You should be able to detect file mark indications in either the > variable length or fixed block read modes. When the tape (or drive > controller buffer position for those that perform buffering) is > positioned at the file mark, you will get a check condition response > to the issuance of the read command, then you (or the SCSI generic > driver) issue the read sense command (immediately after the read, no > other intervening commands!) and the file mark bit will be set in the > sense buffer. For the generic SCSI devices, you can typically tell > the driver to perform an auto sense for check condition responses. > Just make sure you have properly told the driver where to put the > sense data. I suppose a drive could have a manufacturer specific mode > that could hide file marks, but I've never seen one. We did make use > of manufacturer specific procedures to place the read head beyond the > detected EOT mark so we could recover tapes that had been > accidentally overwritten in the middle of recorded data. I'm using a simple ASPI interface, so I'm talking to the SCSI controller directly, issuing CDBs and getting REQUEST SENSE data back, so there's not really any issue of a driver getting in the way. As previously mentioned, the SCSI sense data does not reflect a filemark in variable-length Read mode, but rather 0 bytes transferred with no check condition indicated (i.e. both sense key and additional sense code and sense qualifier are 0, indicating a normal completion of read; ILI is not set in this case either. About all that I can assume is that this is a quirk of this particular tape-to-SCSI interface. It's probably not an issue and easily taken care of in the code, since 0-length normal tape records aren't possible AFAIK. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 12 15:32:04 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:32:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Sean Caron wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: >>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >>>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:15:28AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure what the formulation was in the past but denatured >>>>> alcohol nowadays is just ethanol with maybe 5-10% methanol added. >>>>> You definitely shouldn't be drinking it (in vivo, methanol is >>>>> metabolized to formaldehyde via oxidative reduction - formaldehyde >>>>> attacks the optic nerve - which is why drinking wood methanol makes >>>>> you go blind) but other than that, I wouldn't say it's particularly >>>>> more harmful to you, boards or components than isopropanol is. You >>>>> wouldn't want to drink that, either! >>>> >>>> Wikpedia references EU Regulation 162/2013, which gives the various >>>> recipes >>>> across the EU: >>>> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri= >>>> OJ:L:2013:049:0055:0061:EN:PDF >>>> >>>> Taking a random sample from a few different countries, the basic >>>> recipe seems to be 1% mixed crud to make it unpalatable, up to 10% >>>> methanol, and the rest ethanol. The ethanol and methanol will >>>> evaporate readily enough, but I'd be somewhat concerned about residue >>>> left from non-volatile components of the 1%. >>>> >>>> It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get >>>> hold of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free >>>> delivery. If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. >>> >>> just just acetone? it works the best anyways. >> >> Sure...if you want to dissolve the epoxy substrate, any number of >> plastic or rubber-like compounds (capacitor end seals, anyone?), or the >> enamel coating on magnet wire... > > I thought he was joking? I hope nobody would use acetone! LOL For some applications you can get away with a mix of acetone/isopropyl as a flux remover, but you have to be extremely careful what you clean with it. Acetone will also damage the PVC insulation of most hookup wire. Crazy as it is, the State of California forbids the use of undiluted isopropyl alcohol as an electronics cleaner. http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/appguide/appguide0607.pdf They suggest diluting it by 25% with either water or acetone. You can't buy 190-proof (95% pure ethanol) Everclear in California either, which is my go-to cleaner for laser optics. For optics cleaning, the 151-proof (75%) stuff won't cut it since unlike 95%, it leaves a residue behind as it evaporates. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 12 15:40:19 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:40:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: > On Dec 12, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>> On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: >>>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get >>>>> hold of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free >>>>> delivery. If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. >>>> >>>> just just acetone? it works the best anyways. >>> >>> Sure...if you want to dissolve the epoxy substrate, any number of >>> plastic or rubber-like compounds (capacitor end seals, anyone?), or >>> the enamel coating on magnet wire... >> >> I thought he was joking? I hope nobody would use acetone! LOL > > everyday all the time smartypants Hi Charles. Welcome to classiccmp. *plonk* From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 16:28:19 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:28:19 -0000 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> OK perhaps I need a search. I have one I have used to make an extender card for my EAI TR-10 so its not urgent, but they would be useful for building new boards. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: 12 December 2014 18:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards > > FWIW > > If you take a look at eBay Sold Items, in late September, a 276-190 sold for $6 > inclusive of US shipping. It only took one bid, so it seems like the competition > isn't too tight. > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > Thanks Sean, shipping to the UK is quoted at $18. I will see if my son > > will buy it and bring it back when he comes home at Christmas. > > > > Dave > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Sean Caron > > > Sent: 12 December 2014 16:24 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron > > > Subject: Re: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards > > > > > > Sorry can't help with the board but if you're looking at the same > > 276-190 that > > > I am priced on sale @ $21.00 with free ship to all US destinations, > > > I > > can offer a > > > seller endorsement; I've bought VAXen and VAX parts from them quite > > > a few times and they ship quick & are easy to work with... they also > > > are > > good > > > about accepting reasonable offers on items. I have no clue who that > > > individual is but they have a huge stash of neat stuff they are > > > selling > > off... > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Dave G4UGM > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any one got any of these Radio Shack boards lurking that they > > > > would sell and ship to the UK? The 275-190 looks best, there is > > > > one on E-Bay now but at > > > > $20 > > > > plus $18 for shipping to the UK its getting very expensive.. > > > > > > > > . Actually looking at DigiKey that's cheap. $33 for a new board > > > > with no shipping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 276-180 > > > > > > > > 276-152 > > > > > > > > 276-190 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or actually any thing with a 22/44 way 0.156" connector. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > G4UGM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 16:49:00 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:49:00 -0200 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> Message-ID: Coming back to subject: Does someone has a GS power supply and want to send to a brazilian friend for some money? :) --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Dec 12 17:10:24 2014 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:10:24 -0800 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> Radio Shack is in financial trouble so if you need anything from them, buy it now. They are planning to close around 1000 of their 5000 stores. Michael From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 17:11:47 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:11:47 -0000 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <020201d01661$011c3910$0354ab30$@gmail.com> They closed out this side of the pond years ago, and those boards haven't been made for ages,,, > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Holley > Sent: 12 December 2014 23:10 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards > > Radio Shack is in financial trouble so if you need anything from them, buy it > now. They are planning to close around 1000 of their 5000 stores. > > Michael From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Fri Dec 12 17:30:16 2014 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:30:16 -0600 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> Message-ID: Alexandre, I have such a power supply but have no sense of how much it takes to send to Brazil. I am in the US. Also, this particular supply is noisy but it functions. I think I read that you are only looking for the case, however. Is that right? Cheers, m On December 12, 2014 at 4:59:03 PM, Alexandre Souza (alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com) wrote: Coming back to subject: Does someone has a GS power supply and want to send to a brazilian friend for some money? :) --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 12 18:06:44 2014 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:06:44 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? In-Reply-To: References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <8F4BB175-4383-4600-B2C7-DCA89E7190DA@sbcglobal.net> > On Dec 12, 2014, at 4:40 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: >>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >>>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Charles wrote: >>>>>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not like isopropanol is terribly expensive or difficult to get hold of. I can order ten litres of it from Amazon ?28.66 with free delivery. If anything, it seems to be slightly cheaper than meths. >>>>> >>>>> just just acetone? it works the best anyways. >>>> >>>> Sure...if you want to dissolve the epoxy substrate, any number of plastic or rubber-like compounds (capacitor end seals, anyone?), or the enamel coating on magnet wire... >>> >>> I thought he was joking? I hope nobody would use acetone! LOL >> >> everyday all the time smartypants > > Hi Charles. Welcome to classiccmp. > > *plonk* Nice sense of humor... Jeez From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 12 18:36:54 2014 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:36:54 -0500 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> Message-ID: I was just inside a RadioShack a few days ago to buy some diodes for motherboard coin cell battery retrofits. Not a single customer in the store at the time. They keep getting new parts in from what the sales kid said. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holley Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 6:10 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards Radio Shack is in financial trouble so if you need anything from them, buy it now. They are planning to close around 1000 of their 5000 stores. Michael --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 18:44:49 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:44:49 -0600 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> Message-ID: An Onion headline from several years back.. "Even CEO Can't Figure Out How RadioShack Still In Business" http://www.theonion.com/articles/even-ceo-cant-figure-out-how-radioshack-still-in-b,2190/ On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 6:36 PM, TeoZ wrote: > I was just inside a RadioShack a few days ago to buy some diodes for > motherboard coin cell battery retrofits. Not a single customer in the store > at the time. They keep getting new parts in from what the sales kid said. > > -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holley > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 6:10 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards > > Radio Shack is in financial trouble so if you need anything from them, buy > it now. They are planning to close around 1000 of their 5000 stores. > > Michael > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 12 18:51:16 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:51:16 -0700 Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <548B8D84.6060809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/12/2014 5:44 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > An Onion headline from several years back.. > > "Even CEO Can't Figure Out How RadioShack Still In Business" > > http://www.theonion.com/articles/even-ceo-cant-figure-out-how-radioshack-still-in-b,2190/ > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 6:36 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >> I was just inside a RadioShack a few days ago to buy some diodes for >> motherboard coin cell battery retrofits. Not a single customer in the store >> at the time. They keep getting new parts in from what the sales kid said. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holley >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 6:10 PM >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards >> >> Radio Shack is in financial trouble so if you need anything from them, buy >> it now. They are planning to close around 1000 of their 5000 stores. >> >> Michael Get your Radio NOW :-) Ben. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 19:28:30 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:28:30 -0200 Subject: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? References: <20141212164435.GA81814@mooli.org.uk> <6521F8C7-7DFD-4590-BFCC-B71D6A055892@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <0FA0E8E1749042F6A65571CBC650A67D@deskjara> Yep, I don't need its internals, I just want the shell. I'll install a newer mini-ATX power supply, it is more secure to use and have bigger power (my GS hardware is growing hehehe). I have a friend in USA who can receive the psu for me and forward it if you like. Also, I'm interested in boards for my IIGS and IIe :) Thanks! --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Whalen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have a spare Apple IIgs power supply? > Alexandre, I have such a power supply but have no sense of how much it > takes to send to Brazil. I am in the US. > > Also, this particular supply is noisy but it functions. I think I read > that you are only looking for the case, however. Is that right? > > > Cheers, > > m > > On December 12, 2014 at 4:59:03 PM, Alexandre Souza > (alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com) wrote: > > > Coming back to subject: > > Does someone has a GS power supply and want to send to a brazilian > friend for some money? :) > > --- > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 12 19:45:23 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:45:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards In-Reply-To: <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> References: <03a901d01619$b31dea20$1959be60$@gmail.com> <01af01d0162e$41d243b0$c576cb10$@gmail.com> <019f01d0165a$eed26d20$cc774760$@gmail.com> <000601d01660$d0245d60$706d1820$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Michael Holley wrote: > Radio Shack is in financial trouble so if you need anything from them, > buy it now. They are planning to close around 1000 of their 5000 stores. I tried to buy some protoboards from them a couple of times in the last 3 months. Both times they only had one of each type of board in stock in the store. The person behind the counter said they would only send them one board at a time and that they could not order more. Easier for me to order them on eBay... From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 12 20:23:39 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:23:39 -0600 Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed Message-ID: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> Have: working K10 working HDD Need: Someone who cna install the OS onto the K10. I have tried for some time, but it's not happening, and I think it's time to call in some help. Anyone want some monetary compensation to load a working copy of CP/M onto the drive I have? JIm -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 12 21:24:38 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 21:24:38 -0600 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2014 10:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2014 04:18 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > >> My copy of the *draft* standard states "If the logical >> unit encounters a >> filemark during a READ command, CHECK CONDITION status >> shall be returned and >> the filemark and valid bits shall be set to one in the >> sense data" but perhaps >> the final standard decided to be different for perverse >> reasons. Draft copies >> of questionable provenance is what everybody's working >> from though, because the >> final versions are $$$. > > Well, this is just odd--if I do my read not as variable > length, but rather using specified block size and the > "fixed" bit (bit 0 of byte 1 in the READ command), I do > indeed get the filemark indication. > > I'll have a look at the *nix tape driver code, but AFAIK, > the standard tape handlers for Linux and Unix depend on > the block length being explicitly specified in a MODE > SELECT command. When doing variable-length reads, this > block length is 0. > > And yes, I can read past double filemarks and get to the > previously written data. Eventually, a blank media or EOM > condition arises and calls a halt to things. Recently, I > ran into a case where the double-filemark was an > accident--a zero-length file was written, so the > disrespect for double filemarks is necessary. > > I've got an old X3T9 spec here, as well as a few vendors' > manuals and the strange non-filemark behavior isn't > detailed--however, it's simple enough to translate this > into the expected "filemark-sensed" code. > > It's not a stumble, just curiosity. > LOTS of SCSI devices violated the standard protocol in interesting ways. My understanding is there are two classes of SCSI drives. One class used a scheme that was quite like old 9-track tapes, so that there was essentially no formatting that wrapped around the user data. So, there would be a physical gap with no magnetic transitions between the written user data blocks. There would be a CRC of some sort at the end of the user data. Higher-end drives wrapped the user data into a more complex format, so each block would have a block size and a sequence number at the beginning, and maybe a trailer of the same info with the CRC. Often in these systems, there would be NO physical gap. This increased data capacity, but made it impossible to rewrite a single tape block. The file mark was just a special block with minimal or zero-length data packet. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 12 21:41:18 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:41:18 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 07:24 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > LOTS of SCSI devices violated the standard protocol in interesting > ways. My understanding is there are two classes of SCSI drives. One > class used a scheme that was quite like old 9-track tapes, so that > there was essentially no formatting that wrapped around the user > data. So, there would be a physical gap with no magnetic transitions > between the written user data blocks. There would be a CRC of some > sort at the end of the user data. Higher-end drives wrapped the user > data into a more complex format, so each block would have a block > size and a sequence number at the beginning, and maybe a trailer of > the same info with the CRC. Often in these systems, there would be > NO physical gap. This increased data capacity, but made it > impossible to rewrite a single tape block. The file mark was just a > special block with minimal or zero-length data packet. This is a bog-standard 1600 PE density 9 track tape on a 10.5" reel. So no surprises in the physical format. Just some screwball controller programming. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 22:00:24 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:00:24 -0600 Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Contact me off-list and I +think+ I can help you. I have a working Kaypro 10 here, which boots from the internal HDD just fine. It also has one or two functional 5-1/4" floppy drives. On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Have: > > working K10 > working HDD > > Need: > > Someone who cna install the OS onto the K10. > > I have tried for some time, but it's not happening, and I think it's time > to call in some help. Anyone want some monetary compensation to load a > working copy of CP/M onto the drive I have? > > JIm > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 12 22:56:39 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Jim Brain wrote: > Have: > > working K10 > working HDD > > Need: > > Someone who cna install the OS onto the K10. > > I have tried for some time, but it's not happening, and I think it's time to > call in some help. Anyone want some monetary compensation to load a working > copy of CP/M onto the drive I have? Jim, what problems are you having? I thought the disks I sent you were ok. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 12 23:04:20 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:04:20 -0600 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2014 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > This is a bog-standard 1600 PE density 9 track tape on a > 10.5" reel. > So no surprises in the physical format. Just some > screwball controller programming. OK, that narrows things down QUITE a bit. I worked with some Exabyte drives and others that had a lot of constraints on what you could do, and you could do some interesting things. I think you could write zero-length blocks, and they would show up just like that when read. Clearly on 9-track, there SHOULD BE no such thing as a zero-length block, but I suppose some drives could actually write such a thing at 1600. A preamble, CRC, LRCC and postamble, with no data. But, that OUGHT to be an illegal command. Jon From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 12 23:06:47 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:06:47 -0600 Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <548BC967.8010204@jbrain.com> On 12/12/2014 10:56 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Have: >> >> working K10 >> working HDD >> >> Need: >> >> Someone who cna install the OS onto the K10. >> >> I have tried for some time, but it's not happening, and I think it's >> time to call in some help. Anyone want some monetary compensation to >> load a working copy of CP/M onto the drive I have? > > Jim, what problems are you having? I thought the disks I sent you > were ok. > > g. > The disks read fine (thanks again), as far as I can tell. But, numerous attempts to get the data onto the drive have been unsuccessful. I boot the unit with disk 1. CP/M 2.2 "submit reload" -> putsys -> putovl -> findbad -> findbad Now, sometimes it warm boots and does not finish, but I just tried it again and it then does: pip b:=a:*.*[g1ov] NOT FOUND A:*. *G10V "user 10" "dir" shows no files I am sure it's a simple issue, but I've just had so little success I figure it's time to pay for someone to help, and get it off my bench (it's been sitting for ages, as I got so frustrated with it a while back, I left it so I would not toss it out the window in anger). If I boot with the disk out of the drive, I do get a boot on the HDD, so I think the HDD and the controller are OK. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 13 00:37:04 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 00:37:04 -0600 Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: <548BC967.8010204@jbrain.com> References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> <548BC967.8010204@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <548BDE90.5030706@jbrain.com> On 12/12/2014 11:06 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > "user 10" > "dir" > shows no files Just to be sure, I downloaded a new copy of the image from the maslin files, put it on a new 360kB disk, popped it into the k10, did user 10, dir, and NO FILES Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 13 00:38:01 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:38:01 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <548BDEC9.5080707@sydex.com> On 12/12/2014 09:04 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > OK, that narrows things down QUITE a bit. I worked with some Exabyte > drives and others that had a lot of constraints on what you could do, > and you could do some interesting things. I think you could write > zero-length blocks, and they would show up just like that when > read. Clearly on 9-track, there SHOULD BE no such thing as a > zero-length block, but I suppose some drives could actually write > such a thing at 1600. A preamble, CRC, LRCC and postamble, with > no data. But, that OUGHT to be an illegal command. I seem to remember on certain tapes, that very short records are discarded or reading; something like a "noise" threshold of 7 bytes. But that could be for 7-track and 800 9-track. I don't recall--but regardless, mistaking a 0-length record, should one occur, for a filemark is not catastrophic. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Sat Dec 13 01:36:22 2014 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 02:36:22 -0500 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20141213073622.GA12185@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:04:20PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >I worked with some Exabyte >drives and others that had a lot of constraints on what you could do, >and you could do some interesting things. My recollection with the Exabyte 8mm drives was that they would let you write new data after the last thing written, but you couldn't backspace and write over existing data, unless you were rewinding all the way to BOT. So they were lousy at emulating 9-tracks (but some controllers fixed that by wrapping everything in headers and writing their own suffix records that said when to disregard the last N blocks, and they'd read ahead by some known amount looking for that, to at least handle the common case of going to LEOT, backspacing between the two tape marks, and writing a new file). SCSI annoyances that I remember from the drivers I've written: when a space with a negative count (so I mean a backspace) gets terminated early (by a tape mark or BOT), the residual count returned can be positive *or* negative, depending on the brand of the drive. Can't blame the mfgr because the wording in the spec could arguably be read either way, but the point is, take the absolute value before using it (e.g. to find the length of a file you just skipped past). Also some drives lose their minds (not necessarily giving a sane error in the process) if you try to backspace past BOT, so if you're writing a general driver where that might be attempted (as opposed to a single-purpose utility that's only going to read the entire tape in one forward pass), keep track of the tape position and don't let yourself do this. And if you care about the DEC TK50Z-GA or TZ30 drives, their INQUIRY commands return short/blank data (but with one of the reserved fields set to ^X50 or ^X30, which is a useful clue). So a plain vanilla SCSI tape driver might gag on them, but they work OK once you get past that (I think you have to enable buffering on one model and/or the other before writes work, or something, but that's it). John Wilson D Bit From isking at uw.edu Fri Dec 12 19:13:58 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:13:58 -0800 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <7c6c7bba$55bf029a$dc40c00$@buzz1.com> References: <7c6c7bba$55bf029a$dc40c00$@buzz1.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:20 AM, B Degnan wrote: > > > Hello group > > > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package > along > the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. > > > So a little more than a text-editor but only enough to support > simple > formatting and styles (bold, italic, underline for example). > > > > Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many > 'bells > and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. > > Mark, > [snip] > As far as formatting to the printer goes, I suggest you include the > capacity to enter printer codes manually so that you can use most any type > of printer that accepts them. I remember inserting codes into programs > that were used for a specific printer that way. If you have the manual and > given you're talking simple print capabilities you would not need to supply > drivers. > > Bill > For low resource AND cognitive overhead, how about using either LaTeX or HTML tagging, which could then be interpreted in a simple mapping table for a given printer? By not implementing all of the bells and whistles of either syntax, one could create something that's lightweight and sufficiently expressive. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 13 08:11:22 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:11:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wanted - Tandy/RadioShack Prototype boards Message-ID: <20141213141122.0906018C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: drlegendre > If you take a look at eBay Sold Items, in late September, a 276-190 > sold for $6 inclusive of US shipping. It only took one bid, so it seems > like the competition isn't too tight. If you decide to go for the one at TopLine, and want to make an offer that's lower than the listed price, mention this (and give the item # for reference). They're very business-like, and they want to move inventory, so if something's only going for $X on the open market, they will cheerfully take $X for it, even if they have it listed for $4X (unlike some eBay sellers, who persist in listing things for $4X, and won't budge - with the result that their stuff stays up forever, almost never selling). Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 13 12:57:01 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:57:01 -0600 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548BDEC9.5080707@sydex.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> <548BDEC9.5080707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548C8BFD.6050409@pico-systems.com> On 12/13/2014 12:38 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2014 09:04 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> OK, that narrows things down QUITE a bit. I worked with >> some Exabyte >> drives and others that had a lot of constraints on what >> you could do, >> and you could do some interesting things. I think you >> could write >> zero-length blocks, and they would show up just like that >> when >> read. Clearly on 9-track, there SHOULD BE no such thing >> as a >> zero-length block, but I suppose some drives could >> actually write >> such a thing at 1600. A preamble, CRC, LRCC and >> postamble, with >> no data. But, that OUGHT to be an illegal command. > > I seem to remember on certain tapes, that very short > records are discarded or reading; something like a > "noise" threshold of 7 bytes. But that could be for > 7-track and 800 9-track. I don't recall--but regardless, > mistaking a 0-length record, should one occur, for a > filemark is not catastrophic. Yes, quite correct. Turning on or off the erase head would leave a "noise burst" that could be picked up by the read amps. So, in NRZI mode, you had to ignore them. Good drives had something like a current ramp-up control to eliminate these while writing. In PE mode, there would be a preamble and postamble of 40 transitions each, so you have no way of mistaking a little noise for the beginning of a valid block. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 13 13:02:21 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:02:21 -0600 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <20141213073622.GA12185@dbit.dbit.com> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548BB176.1000805@pico-systems.com> <548BB55E.5060903@sydex.com> <548BC8D4.7030306@pico-systems.com> <20141213073622.GA12185@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <548C8D3D.3020508@pico-systems.com> On 12/13/2014 01:36 AM, John Wilson wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:04:20PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >> I worked with some Exabyte >> drives and others that had a lot of constraints on what you could do, >> and you could do some interesting things. > My recollection with the Exabyte 8mm drives was that they would let you > write new data after the last thing written, but you couldn't backspace and > write over existing data, unless you were rewinding all the way to BOT. So > they were lousy at emulating 9-tracks (but some controllers fixed that by > wrapping everything in headers and writing their own suffix records that > said when to disregard the last N blocks, and they'd read ahead by some > known amount looking for that, to at least handle the common case of going > to LEOT, backspacing between the two tape marks, and writing a new file). No, you could commence writing after any existing record, and the drive would take care of the mess that was similar to a punch-in edit on videotape, if you remember what that looked like on the early VCR's. It would just overwrite the following data for about 2-3 seconds with full-width erase, and then pick up writing in cleanly-erased tape. I think some of the later drives might have been able to do better with flying erase heads. But, we generally never did fancy stuff with them, just write a whole tape at a time. Anyway, we never added records to an existing file, but did often add new files after the double file mark. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 13 18:17:52 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:17:52 -0000 Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 Message-ID: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> (apologies to those on the DecTec list, looking to widen the audience) I am struggling to surmount a problem installing Ultrix 4.5 from a CD-ROM onto a DECstation 2100 (MIPS) After choosing the type of installation (basic or advanced) it tries to offer the system disk selection. However, it keeps failing because it is detecting the CD-ROM drive and saying it has an invalid block size. I can hear it spin up the hard disk that I want to install on, so it should be finding a suitable hard disk, but it looks like it keeps choking on the CD-ROM drive. I can't tell if it is failing to see the hard disk properly, but when I tried NetBSD on the same disk, and in the same machine, it is fine, so the hard disk shouldn't be the problem. Any ideas on how to resolve this? Thanks Rob From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Dec 13 18:23:20 2014 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 16:23:20 -0800 Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> References: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <548CD878.6020708@crash.com> On 12/13/2014 04:17 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > After choosing the type of installation (basic or advanced) it tries to > offer the system disk selection. However, it keeps failing because it is > detecting the CD-ROM drive and saying it has an invalid block size. I can > hear it spin up the hard disk that I want to install on, so it should be > finding a suitable hard disk, but it looks like it keeps choking on the > CD-ROM drive. What SCSI IDs are you using for all these devices? Off the top of my head I don't recall what DEC's convention was for the CD (I'd guess 6), but I wonder if the fairly simple-minded installer thinks the ID you've used for the CD is supposed to be used for HDD... Good luck, --Steve. From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 13 18:58:05 2014 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 16:58:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> References: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:17:52 -0000 > From: Robert Jarratt > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 > > (apologies to those on the DecTec list, looking to widen the audience) > > > > I am struggling to surmount a problem installing Ultrix 4.5 from a CD-ROM > onto a DECstation 2100 (MIPS) > > After choosing the type of installation (basic or advanced) it tries to > offer the system disk selection. However, it keeps failing because it is > detecting the CD-ROM drive and saying it has an invalid block size. I can > hear it spin up the hard disk that I want to install on, so it should be > finding a suitable hard disk, but it looks like it keeps choking on the > CD-ROM drive. I can't tell if it is failing to see the hard disk properly, > but when I tried NetBSD on the same disk, and in the same machine, it is > fine, so the hard disk shouldn't be the problem. > Is it a DEC CD-ROM drive? I think the blocksize must be 512 bytes but generic CD-ROM drive have a 2K? block size. Somes drives have a jumper that sets the block size. > > > Any ideas on how to resolve this? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From bensinc at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 19:29:22 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:29:22 -0600 Subject: Nice LSI-11 brochure In-Reply-To: References: <20141209191436.17F2518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It's now mine! On Tuesday, December 9, 2014, Sean Caron wrote: > That does look like a nice one. Lots of color photos! I've taken recently > to collecting non-electronic ephemera related to the industry i.e. IC > databooks, application notes, old copies of IEEE Spectrum, BSTJ, etc. So > far a fairly inexpensive habit to feed and the potential cognitive hours > occupied to dollar ratio is pretty high, IMO. Also much prefer flipping > through real paper versus a PDF when at the bench, etc. Always nice to have > stuff to read over dinner, too :) > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Noel Chiappa > > wrote: > > > There's a nice LSI-11 brochure going on eBay: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/291318103446 > > > > It's got pictures of a lot of different kinds of cards (useful for ID > > purposes), a modest amount of technical content, etc. Definitely worth > > having if you're a PDP-11 collector, and can get it for not too much > > (I already have one, don't need another... :-) > > > > Noel > > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From mark at markesystems.com Sat Dec 13 19:29:46 2014 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:29:46 -0800 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ian King suggested: <...> > For low resource AND cognitive overhead, how about using either LaTeX or > HTML tagging, which could then be interpreted in a simple mapping table > for > a given printer? By not implementing all of the bells and whistles of > either syntax, one could create something that's lightweight and > sufficiently expressive. Or how about MarkDown? A combination of this (for in-line emphasis or font changes) and perhaps some beginning-of-line dot-commands (like runoff, and also in WordStar) would likely be adequately expressive (I've done entire reference manuals using only MarkDown), easy to implement, and easy to parse for formatted output (printed, HTML, or whatever). ~~ Mark Moulding From scaron at umich.edu Sat Dec 13 22:23:20 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 23:23:20 -0500 Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: References: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I am pretty sure the DECstation 2100/3100 is old enough that it requires a 512 byte sector CD-ROM to boot and/or install properly. I find some of the older DEC machines are kind of picky... using a genuine DEC RRD drive will almost guarantee you to succeed; early CD-ROM drives from other workstation vendors of the same era (i.e. Sun) are also good bets. Most drives you will pull from Macs or PCs of the era are set up to do 2048 byte sectors and are no good for booting the old workstations (though they may work as a simple peripheral to read CD-ROMs after the fact). In fact, exactly this sort of thing happened last time I loaded a VAXstation 3100 (with VMS, but, same principle) over the summer... IIRC, I tried to boot it with a Sun drive first (note: 512 byte sector drive!) and it actually booted the miniroot OK, but it always would fail when trying to restore the save set to the disk. It only worked all the way through once I put the Sun drive away and started using a DEC RRD45. Use an AppleCD 300 (2048 byte sectors) and it won't even boot the miniroot. So, just an example of exactly how picky they can be ;) I kind of miss my old DECstation 2100/3100s... Had a few maybe 15 years ago. I ran NetBSD on mine... they were slower than dirt but I always enjoyed staring into that big old black hole of a monitor that was the VR290 hooked up to it... and I just love that font that DEC used for text mode. I didn't think of it as such at the time, but the machine is kind of historically significant; I think it was one of the first MIPS based machines to sell in real volume. Best, Sean On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:17:52 -0000 >> From: Robert Jarratt >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 >> >> >> (apologies to those on the DecTec list, looking to widen the audience) >> >> >> >> I am struggling to surmount a problem installing Ultrix 4.5 from a CD-ROM >> onto a DECstation 2100 (MIPS) >> >> After choosing the type of installation (basic or advanced) it tries to >> offer the system disk selection. However, it keeps failing because it is >> detecting the CD-ROM drive and saying it has an invalid block size. I can >> hear it spin up the hard disk that I want to install on, so it should be >> finding a suitable hard disk, but it looks like it keeps choking on the >> CD-ROM drive. I can't tell if it is failing to see the hard disk properly, >> but when I tried NetBSD on the same disk, and in the same machine, it is >> fine, so the hard disk shouldn't be the problem. >> >> > > Is it a DEC CD-ROM drive? I think the blocksize must be 512 bytes but > generic CD-ROM drive have a 2K? block size. Somes drives have a jumper that > sets the block size. > > >> >> Any ideas on how to resolve this? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > > From other at oryx.cc Sun Dec 14 00:44:57 2014 From: other at oryx.cc (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:44:57 -0600 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> References: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548D31E9.6000106@oryx.cc> Wordstar clone. http://wordtsar.ca/ Jerry On 12/11/14 06:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2014 03:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > >> Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells >> and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. > > Wordstar. Still in use in many places. On 64-bit Linux, I use the Joe editor, > which is a pretty close clone. I think the source is freely available--and > there are versions available for MS-DOS and Windows. > > --Chuck > From other at oryx.cc Sun Dec 14 00:44:57 2014 From: other at oryx.cc (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:44:57 -0600 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> References: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548D31E9.6000106@oryx.cc> Wordstar clone. http://wordtsar.ca/ Jerry On 12/11/14 06:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2014 03:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > >> Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells >> and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. > > Wordstar. Still in use in many places. On 64-bit Linux, I use the Joe editor, > which is a pretty close clone. I think the source is freely available--and > there are versions available for MS-DOS and Windows. > > --Chuck > From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Dec 13 18:57:19 2014 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:57:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> References: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > After choosing the type of installation (basic or advanced) it tries to > offer the system disk selection. However, it keeps failing because it is > detecting the CD-ROM drive and saying it has an invalid block size. I can > hear it spin up the hard disk that I want to install on, so it should be > finding a suitable hard disk, but it looks like it keeps choking on the > CD-ROM drive. I can't tell if it is failing to see the hard disk properly, > but when I tried NetBSD on the same disk, and in the same machine, it is > fine, so the hard disk shouldn't be the problem. > > Any ideas on how to resolve this? You need to have a CD-ROM drive that supports a 512-byte sector size and set it in that mode -- supporting drives will have a jumper to select between the usual 2kB and the 512b sector size. HTH, Maciej From engel at multicores.org Sat Dec 13 23:48:31 2014 From: engel at multicores.org (Michael Engel) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 05:48:31 +0000 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code Message-ID: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> Hi, according to http://www.megalextoria.com/usenet-archive/news021f2/b37/fa/info-mac/00001680.html Bill Croft at Stanford developed an Ethernet to Apple LocalTalk gateway that ran on the original SUN 68000 CPU board. Unfortunately, I cannot find the files mentioned in that post on any info-mac mirror (or somewhere else on the net): "The beta release of our Stanford Ethernet - AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) is ready. On [SUMEX] the files are: seagate.ms documentation in -ms format seagate.hard the wirelist for the applebus interface seagate.shar1 the main gateway sources (including the above doc's) seagate.shar2 the ddt, dlq, testscc, and tftp subdirectories" If you happen to have these lying around in a dusty corner, I would be happy to obtain a copy. According to Wikipedia, this code also was the basis for the commercial Kinetics FastPath gateway product: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPath Best wishes, Michael From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 14 01:13:44 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 07:13:44 -0000 Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: References: <01cd01d01733$66b763d0$34262b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01ea01d0176d$7f322050$7d9660f0$@ntlworld.com> I should have mentioned that the CD-ROM drive I am using has the sector size jumper and I have tried it both with and without the jumper setting with the same result. In fact without the jumper I cannot even get it to do the initial boot off the CD. The other suggestion is about the SCSI ID. Previously the CD-ROM was ID 0, I then tried ID 4 (which was higher than the HDD). I think I have two courses of action, from the suggestions I have had. First is to try a completely different model of CD-ROM drive (I have an RRD42 somewhere), and the other is to try some different SCSI IDs for the CD-ROM drive. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron > Sent: 14 December 2014 04:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Sean Caron > Subject: Re: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 > > I am pretty sure the DECstation 2100/3100 is old enough that it requires a > 512 byte sector CD-ROM to boot and/or install properly. I find some of the > older DEC machines are kind of picky... using a genuine DEC RRD drive will > almost guarantee you to succeed; early CD-ROM drives from other workstation > vendors of the same era (i.e. Sun) are also good bets. Most drives you will pull > from Macs or PCs of the era are set up to do 2048 byte sectors and are no good > for booting the old workstations (though they may work as a simple peripheral > to read CD-ROMs after the fact). > > In fact, exactly this sort of thing happened last time I loaded a VAXstation 3100 > (with VMS, but, same principle) over the summer... IIRC, I tried to boot it with a > Sun drive first (note: 512 byte sector drive!) and it actually booted the miniroot > OK, but it always would fail when trying to restore the save set to the disk. It > only worked all the way through once I put the Sun drive away and started > using a DEC RRD45. Use an AppleCD 300 > (2048 byte sectors) and it won't even boot the miniroot. So, just an example of > exactly how picky they can be ;) > > I kind of miss my old DECstation 2100/3100s... Had a few maybe 15 years ago. I > ran NetBSD on mine... they were slower than dirt but I always enjoyed staring > into that big old black hole of a monitor that was the > VR290 hooked up to it... and I just love that font that DEC used for text mode. I > didn't think of it as such at the time, but the machine is kind of historically > significant; I think it was one of the first MIPS based machines to sell in real > volume. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Peter C. Wallace > wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:17:52 -0000 > >> From: Robert Jarratt > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> Subject: Problem Installing Ultrix on DECstation 2100 > >> > >> > >> (apologies to those on the DecTec list, looking to widen the > >> audience) > >> > >> > >> > >> I am struggling to surmount a problem installing Ultrix 4.5 from a > >> CD-ROM onto a DECstation 2100 (MIPS) > >> > >> After choosing the type of installation (basic or advanced) it tries > >> to offer the system disk selection. However, it keeps failing because > >> it is detecting the CD-ROM drive and saying it has an invalid block > >> size. I can hear it spin up the hard disk that I want to install on, > >> so it should be finding a suitable hard disk, but it looks like it > >> keeps choking on the CD-ROM drive. I can't tell if it is failing to > >> see the hard disk properly, but when I tried NetBSD on the same disk, > >> and in the same machine, it is fine, so the hard disk shouldn't be the > problem. > >> > >> > > > > Is it a DEC CD-ROM drive? I think the blocksize must be 512 bytes but > > generic CD-ROM drive have a 2K? block size. Somes drives have a jumper > > that sets the block size. > > > > > >> > >> Any ideas on how to resolve this? > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > > > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Dec 14 03:48:18 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:48:18 +0000 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <548D31E9.6000106@oryx.cc> References: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> <548D31E9.6000106@oryx.cc> Message-ID: Thank you for all the suggestions... I also found wordgrinder http://wordgrinder.sourceforge.net/ which fits the bill somewhat. Mark. On 14 December 2014 at 06:44, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > Wordstar clone. > > http://wordtsar.ca/ > > Jerry > > > > On 12/11/14 06:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/11/2014 03:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: >> >> Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells >>> and whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. >>> >> >> Wordstar. Still in use in many places. On 64-bit Linux, I use the Joe >> editor, >> which is a pretty close clone. I think the source is freely >> available--and >> there are versions available for MS-DOS and Windows. >> >> --Chuck >> >> From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 06:03:46 2014 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 07:03:46 -0500 Subject: Looking for WWENG2.SYS for DECserver 900TM In-Reply-To: <20141205232807.GA1022@allie.home.misty.com> References: <027c01d00c81$653d1200$2fb73600$@ntlworld.com> <1417737837.2373.156.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <20141205151433.GA71692@allie.home.misty.com> <021801d010bc$5a829df0$0f87d9d0$@ntlworld.com> <20141205232807.GA1022@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <548D7CA2.80501@yahoo.com> On 12/5/2014 6:28 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 06:50:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> Does anyone know how to extract one of these from the flash card? >>> >>> I've got a 900TM booting from flash with version 2.4 WWENG2.SYS on the >> card, >>> but I can't figure out how to copy it off the card for another 900TM. >>> >>> I obtained a second 900TM that didn't have a card included. I won a >> "Mitsubishi >>> Melcard 2MB F?E?PROM MEMORY Card MF82M1-77DAT01" on e-bay, which is >>> identical to what DEC provided, and successfully booted and loaded >> wweng2.sys >>> version 2.2, which I believe is the 1646592 byte version supervinx also >> has. >>> >>> My 900TM with 2.4 works better than the other one booting 2.2. If anyone >> has >>> any info on reading WWENG2.SYS 2.4 off my working unit, please let me >> know. >>> >> >> I tried looking for one of these cards on Ebay in the UK and drew a blank. I >> tried a few alternative searches too, but still got nowhere. Is there >> anything else I could look for that would do the same thing? If so, how do >> you get the software onto the card? >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob > > I found some discussion of card compatibility here: > > http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.os.vms/2004-10/1901.html > > You should be able to hit CTRL-B a couple times on the first serial > port during power up to get to a ">>>" prompt, then do something > like this: > > >>> INIT FROM ETHER IMAGE WWENG2 UPDATE FLASH DELAY 0 > > I had some trouble getting to the ">>>" prompt successfully, but > once there, had no trouble netbooting and updating the flash. > > Mark > I have the other card version mentioned in the comp.os.vms article - The Mitsubishi MELCARD MF82M1-GBDAT01 and I can say it also works in the DECserver 900TM. There are a few on the US Ebay site right now. As far as I know, the only way to get the data flashed to the card is to get the DECserver to boot online first, then run the previously mentioned command to flash the memory. Also, there is no way that I know of to copy the data from the card to a file via the DECserver. I assume you would have to have a PCMIA slot on a computer and use that to read the card. John H. Reinhardt From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Dec 14 08:09:46 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 14:09:46 +0000 Subject: confirm [...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141214140945.GA146047@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 03:49:03AM -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to excessive > bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 14-Dec-2014. You will > not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership. > You will receive 3 more reminders like this before your membership in the > list is deleted. Is anybody else getting these messages? I've had a furkle through the mail server logs and see no evidence of cctalk bounces. I do hoever see bounces to *cctech*. I never subscribed to that list, the list server ignores unsubscription requests, and so I instituted the reject policy in a hope that the bounces would eventually cause unsubscription in the manner described above and thus achieve the desired effect without further fuss. Unfortunately, it wants to unsubscribe me from cctalk instead! Jay, would you like me to take a look at your mail server configuration to find out how the two lists have become intertwined in this broken manner? It's probably just a trivial cut-and-paste error or dodgy symlink somewhere. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 14 08:14:42 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 06:14:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: <548BDE90.5030706@jbrain.com> References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> <548BC967.8010204@jbrain.com> <548BDE90.5030706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Dec 2014, Jim Brain wrote: > On 12/12/2014 11:06 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> "user 10" >> "dir" >> shows no files > Just to be sure, I downloaded a new copy of the image from the maslin files, > put it on a new 360kB disk, popped it into the k10, did user 10, dir, and NO > FILES Are you sure there's supposed to be data there? I've never done a from-scratch install on the K10, so I'm not sure what the process is. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 14 08:17:27 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:17:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nice LSI-11 brochure Message-ID: <20141214141727.EE8A218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > It's now mine! Well, you didn't have a lot of competetion... :-) Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 14 09:00:07 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 07:00:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <548D31E9.6000106@oryx.cc> References: <548A3215.6070806@sydex.com> <548D31E9.6000106@oryx.cc> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Wordstar clone. > > http://wordtsar.ca/ Thanks for the link Jerry. That's the neatest thing I've seen in quite a while. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Dec 14 09:37:08 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:37:08 +0000 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141214153708.GB146047@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:38:35PM +0000, Mark Wickens wrote: > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package along > the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. Editors look deceptively simple to write, but they're actually quite hard to do well. > I have used many word processing packages over the years on many machines > from 8-bit machines to mainframes. Within the following bounds I'd love to > know the packages that have been the favourite of list members over the years > and why. I started using Emacs in 1995 once x86 hardware became cheap enough that I could afford to buy some to stick Linux on it to get my own Unix box to play with. I've never looked back :) For letters, documentation, and other word-processing tasks as opposed to writing code, I normally just edit LaTeX documents with Emacs, but for trivial documents that don't need heavy editing I'm finding that TeXShop.app is sufficient and has a faster edit-compile-preview cycle than the Emacs-based workflow. Previously, I used some reasonably powerful "programmers' editor" on the Amiga, the name of which I forget, and before that I had toy 8 bit systems in which the "editor" was the BASIC interpreter's REPL (as we would now call it). I did quite like Wordwise on other people's BBC Micros, but I had a crummy old Acorn Electron. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wordwise > If I implement this I'd be looking to keep within the following bounds: > * text only - ideally support VT terminal 80x24 or 132x24/36/48 or DOS > 80x25 display size. > * two printer drivers - text only and Epson LQ (or possibly IBM Proprinter) > * support small range of printer specific fonts > * support proportional text > So a little more than a text-editor but only enough to support simple > formatting and styles (bold, italic, underline for example). The closest to this would be Wordwise. Wikipedia notes as a feature that "The program was *not* a WYSIWYG text editor", but does not really explain it terribly well. The text-editing mode used "graphics" MODE 7, which was a 40x25 character-mode display provided by a Teletext character generator. Teletext supports in-band control codes to set colours, and the control code is rendered as a space. Wordwise used this as a feature in that a command would be prefixed by a set-colour code (I *think* it was green, but it was 30 years ago!) and returning to text was set-white. So the commands were nice and obvious in the document, being in a different colour and not smushed in with the text. The preview mode used "graphics" MODE 3, which the OS presented as an 80x25 text mode without graphics support. What you *actually* got was 25 lines of 640x8 strips. It's basically a hack to reduce the display memory requirements from 20kiB to 16kiB, which is helpful when the base machine only has 32kiB in the first place, and the MOS+DFS swipes 6.25kiB of that. In theory one could write straight into the framebuffer to get proportional text, bold, italic and underline, but Wordwise just used the OS calls, and so its "preview" was just unstyled text on a grid, but at least it matched the lousy consumer-grade printers of the day so they got away with it. If you run with the Wordwise approach, you can "preview" to CGA's 640x200 graphics mode which allows you to render styled proportional text in arbitrary fonts, which cannot be displayed in VGA's text mode. VGA text mode will only give you bold plus one of underline, italic, or alternate font set (italic being a special case of this) and is of course fixed-width. Even terminal emulators on full windowing systems tend to have limited support of ANSI control codes: the one I'm composing this response in will not do italic, for example. (On the "upside", it has excellent Unicode support and 24 bit colour. It's almost a waste that I mainly use it for black-on-white US-ASCII.) If you want WYSIWYG, you will have to use a graphics mode, or constrain the printed documents to the same limitations as VGA. This is a *lot* harder or will produce substandard results, so I strongly recommend against it. Consider also that if you're going to print proportional text, you need to know the width of all of the characters so you know where to insert line breaks. This is likely to also affect preview mode since the glyphs in your display font may be the same size. I told you this is a harder problem than it initially seems! > Ideally I'd like to implement a clean, logical design without many 'bells and > whistles' concentrating on the core functionality. The reason that Microsoft Word is a bloated lumbering bug-infested monster isn't *just* because Microsoft can't write any other kind of program, but because although most users only use 10% of Word's features, it's a different 10% for everbody and there's not much overlap. In a related vein, I'm occasionally prompted to fiddle with IDEs, causing a groan because they are inevitably terrible editors. They typically claim to be Emacs-like but miss the point that I use Emacs not out of habit because I'm used to the key bindings for navigating round and manipulating handfuls of characters, but because it contains some quite powerful whole-document tools that don't exist elsewhere. Supporting the likes of C-n, C-p no more makes it an acceptable substitute for Emacs than Nethack's use of hjkl makes it a replacement for vi. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 14 10:03:13 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 08:03:13 -0800 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code In-Reply-To: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> References: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> Message-ID: <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> On 12/13/14 9:48 PM, Michael Engel wrote: > > Hi, > > according to > http://www.megalextoria.com/usenet-archive/news021f2/b37/fa/info-mac/00001680.html > Bill Croft at Stanford developed an Ethernet to Apple LocalTalk gateway > that ran on the original SUN 68000 CPU board. > > Unfortunately, I cannot find the files mentioned in that post on any info-mac > mirror (or somewhere else on the net): > I've emailed you a copy, and I'll put the tarball up on bitsavers under bits/Stanford The code was built using the SUMEX C toolchain, derived from the MIT 68k port of PCC, which is even harder to find. I know I had it at one point, I'm having to dig through dozens of tape images from the 80's. From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 14 10:10:12 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:10:12 -0500 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code In-Reply-To: <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> References: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sorry to bug you, Al, but I thought I'd take a peek at it myself, but I don't see it up on the archive: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/ Am I using the wrong URL or is my Squid caching an old copy of the page? Usually it's pretty good about not getting stale. Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/13/14 9:48 PM, Michael Engel wrote: > >> >> Hi, >> >> according to >> http://www.megalextoria.com/usenet-archive/news021f2/b37/ >> fa/info-mac/00001680.html >> Bill Croft at Stanford developed an Ethernet to Apple LocalTalk gateway >> that ran on the original SUN 68000 CPU board. >> >> Unfortunately, I cannot find the files mentioned in that post on any >> info-mac >> mirror (or somewhere else on the net): >> >> > I've emailed you a copy, and I'll put the tarball up on bitsavers under > bits/Stanford > > The code was built using the SUMEX C toolchain, derived from the MIT 68k > port of PCC, which > is even harder to find. > > I know I had it at one point, I'm having to dig through dozens of tape > images from the 80's. > > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 14 10:11:07 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:11:07 -0500 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code In-Reply-To: References: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Oh, sorry, I misread, I thought it was online already, when it was simply on your to-do list. I'll check back in a little while. Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Sorry to bug you, Al, but I thought I'd take a peek at it myself, but I > don't see it up on the archive: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/ > > Am I using the wrong URL or is my Squid caching an old copy of the page? > Usually it's pretty good about not getting stale. > > Best, > > Sean > > > > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 12/13/14 9:48 PM, Michael Engel wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> according to >>> http://www.megalextoria.com/usenet-archive/news021f2/b37/ >>> fa/info-mac/00001680.html >>> Bill Croft at Stanford developed an Ethernet to Apple LocalTalk gateway >>> that ran on the original SUN 68000 CPU board. >>> >>> Unfortunately, I cannot find the files mentioned in that post on any >>> info-mac >>> mirror (or somewhere else on the net): >>> >>> >> I've emailed you a copy, and I'll put the tarball up on bitsavers under >> bits/Stanford >> >> The code was built using the SUMEX C toolchain, derived from the MIT 68k >> port of PCC, which >> is even harder to find. >> >> I know I had it at one point, I'm having to dig through dozens of tape >> images from the 80's. >> >> >> >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 14 10:29:48 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 08:29:48 -0800 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code In-Reply-To: References: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <548DBAFC.5010807@bitsavers.org> On 12/14/14 8:11 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Oh, sorry, I misread, I thought it was online already, when it was simply > on your to-do list. I'll check back in a little while. > The mirrors take from 12 hours to a day to catch up. From engel at multicores.org Sun Dec 14 10:30:01 2014 From: engel at multicores.org (Michael Engel) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:30:01 +0000 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code In-Reply-To: <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> References: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0446E594-9630-4E3B-A0F1-CD7A5C71729F@multicores.org> Hi, On 14 Dec 2014, at 16:03, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/13/14 9:48 PM, Michael Engel wrote: >> >> according to >> http://www.megalextoria.com/usenet-archive/news021f2/b37/fa/info-mac/00001680.html >> Bill Croft at Stanford developed an Ethernet to Apple LocalTalk gateway >> that ran on the original SUN 68000 CPU board. >> >> Unfortunately, I cannot find the files mentioned in that post on any info-mac >> mirror (or somewhere else on the net): >> > > I've emailed you a copy, and I'll put the tarball up on bitsavers under bits/Stanford Thanks, Al - got it, looks great! I also found two later versions of the seagate source, modified to run on Kinetics FastPath routers (68008/68000-based single-board routers with a 82586 Ethernet controller and a Z8530) and renamed "KIP": https://stuff.mit.edu/afs/athena/astaff/project/snmp/cmu/kip/ ftp://ftp.st.ryukoku.ac.jp:/pub/network/cap/AT-KIP/ > The code was built using the SUMEX C toolchain, derived from the MIT 68k port of PCC, which > is even harder to find. This is actually easy to find, SUMACC tools (actually a Mac cross compiler, which works fine for creating b.out binaries) are included in 4.3BSD's "new.tar.gz" sources: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.3BSD/new.tar.gz I have sumacc working on 4.3BSD/VAX in simh (my real VAXen are still in Germany and are too recent to run 4.3BSD or even Quasijarus) anyways. NetBSD+emulation might work). The original SUN (and, presumably, also Codata) firmware was developed using sumacc, we are currently trying to get our own modifications to run using the sunmon sources from bitsavers. The sunmon sources compile after adding files from the PDF source listing of an older version (0.8) of sunmon (from http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/stanford/sun/SUN_Monitor_Listing_Aug81.pdf) and writing some missing header files (mostly nec7210.h), but we are still struggling with strange bus errors that keep creeping up when trying to run the code on the real machine. It works fine in the (very incomplete) mess Codata emulator as well as a hacked-up version of a Verilog implementation of a small Codata subset + an attached VPI 68000 simulator (derived from Ben Herrenschmidt's minimigmac sources at http://git.ozlabs.org/?p=minimigmac.git). I also got the sumacc compilers to compile on OS X, but these show bugs in the parser and code generator, resulting in crashes. I'll try to figure these out over the Christmas break... If anyone is interested in my simh VM image for VAX 11/780 with 4.3BSD, the sumacc compilers and the sunmon sources installed, please let me know. -- Michael From billdeg at buzz1.com Sun Dec 14 10:49:54 2014 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:49:54 -0500 Subject: 1964 Honeywell EDP Sales Presentation - H-200 / H-300 / H-800 Info Message-ID: <366970b2$60ea1333$68466fcf$@buzz1.com> May 1st, 1964 the Honeywell Electronic Data Processing Division Bala-Cynwyd office sales team led by Stephen S. Berry (Sales Representative) and H.L. Sweatt (Branch Sales Mgr) submitted their proposal to DuPont Company to upgrade the Treasurer's Department computer system. DuPont had been running an IBM 1401 system but they were looking to upgrade. Initial discussions between the two companies appear to have been about the H-200 computer. After assessing the needs of the Treasurer's Department, Honeywell is shown to suggest that DuPont instead acquire a system comprising of combination of H-800/1800, H-300, and components. For reference Honeywell also included info about the H-200. This proposal contains pricing and system configuration. It also contains a comparison between the IBM 1401 and the Honeywell B-200. A nice set of one-page product sheets about the H-200 line are included. This is an excellent historic reference because it puts the systems in context, from the Honeywell perspective. PDF Set: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=589 Not sure where on BitSavers.org one would put this set as it covers multiple systems as well as a compare contrast with IBM 1401. -Bill From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 14 11:02:17 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:02:17 -0500 Subject: 1964 Honeywell EDP Sales Presentation - H-200 / H-300 / H-800 Info In-Reply-To: <366970b2$60ea1333$68466fcf$@buzz1.com> References: <366970b2$60ea1333$68466fcf$@buzz1.com> Message-ID: Reading it now. That's pretty neat; just to see what the whole quoting and sales pitch thing looked like back then. It's much more informal today! Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:49 AM, B Degnan wrote: > > > May 1st, 1964 the Honeywell Electronic Data Processing Division Bala-Cynwyd > office sales team led by Stephen S. Berry (Sales Representative) and H.L. > Sweatt (Branch Sales Mgr) submitted their proposal to DuPont Company to > upgrade the Treasurer's Department computer system. DuPont had been running > an IBM 1401 system but they were looking to upgrade. Initial discussions > between the two companies appear to have been about the H-200 computer. > After assessing the needs of the Treasurer's Department, Honeywell is shown > to suggest that DuPont instead acquire a system comprising of combination > of H-800/1800, H-300, and components. For reference Honeywell also included > info about the H-200. > > This proposal contains pricing and system configuration. It also contains a > comparison between the IBM 1401 and the Honeywell B-200. A nice set of > one-page product sheets about the H-200 line are included. This is an > excellent historic reference because it puts the systems in context, from > the Honeywell perspective. > > PDF Set: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=589 > > Not sure where on BitSavers.org one would put this set as it covers > multiple systems as well as a compare contrast with IBM 1401. > > -Bill > From simski at dds.nl Sun Dec 14 11:25:52 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:25:52 +0100 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair Message-ID: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> hello all, I'm in the process of repairing our 101 but i hit a solid wall finding out whats wrong with it. are there people with a working copy who could do some measurements on their copy? Unfortunately i have no schematic of the electronics, only the mechanics and PSU. I have made a crappy video of the scope trace of the delay line input and i'm very interested in a video of a working machine's delay line. :-) The video is here: http://youtu.be/llpwjGeldt0 and a partially repairlog is here: https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101 als scematics are welcome as well. :-) -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Dec 14 11:10:07 2014 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:10:07 +0000 (WET) Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:37:08 +0000" <20141214153708.GB146047@mooli.org.uk> References: Message-ID: <01PG475Z89QE003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:37:08 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:38:35PM +0000, Mark Wickens wrote: > > I'm toying with the idea of writing a simple word processing package along > > the lines of Wordstar for my Retrochallenge 2015/01 entry. > > Editors look deceptively simple to write, but they're actually quite hard to > do well. > You know, it could always be worse. In my first year studying engineering, a poor soul from the Computer Science faculty was sent over to give 240 of us a one hour a week lecture in writing rudimenary FORTRAN IV programs on an IBM System/370 based system which we got to access in line mode using ADM-5 terminals. By the end of the year, most of the class had managed to successfully compile a simple program and had a vague idea about how to read data from a file, perform calculations on it and write it out to another file, basic stuff that many engineers would find a useful foundation for solving more complicated problems using computers. In second year, the lecturer was replaced by a new guy from Computer Science who clearly hadn't spoken to the previous guy about our prowess and interest in computer programming. He breezed in and opened the first lecture with: "I suppose you are all familiar with 6800 assembly language programming?" and took it from the general lack of reaction that we probably were. In reality most of the class had no idea what he was talking about and those that did were too taken by surprise to reply. His first assignment to us was to write some sort of part 6800 simulator using the same FORTRAN IV system we had been using the previous year but now with (just about) full screen access on the ADM-5's, provided you could master the escape sequences needed to generate the equivelant of function keys to work the editor. The FORTRAN compiler (WATFIV) only had what it called "structured programming" (IF/THEN/ELSE and WHILE/ENDWHILE) and novelties like (fixed length) character variables because it sported extentions from the standard and it mainly saw its role in life as preventing us from accessing anything on the system that might be remotely useful for this particular task. It liked everything to start at one and had a deep hatred of anything that started at zero. It also liked to issue obscure error messages whenever anyone typed any input it didn't like and delighted in making it difficult to trap these errors and replace them with something more meaningful. Why am I mentioning all this? This guy's assignment to us later in the year was to write some vague approximation of a word processor using the same FORTRAN IV setup. I think the idea was to read in words typed at the terminal and format them newspaper column style with nice straight left and right margins. (Did I mention that the system could only reluctantly be persuaded to deal with lower case? As for dynamic memory allocation? Not a chance.) Many years after performing this somewhat less than useful task, my advice is: don't write your word processor in FORTRAN IV on an IBM S/370. (I'm expecting Fred will probably have something to say about college administrators about now.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 14 13:53:02 2014 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 13:53:02 -0600 Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> <548BC967.8010204@jbrain.com> <548BDE90.5030706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <548DEA9E.4060004@jbrain.com> On 12/14/2014 8:14 AM, geneb wrote: > On Sat, 13 Dec 2014, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 12/12/2014 11:06 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> >>> "user 10" >>> "dir" >>> shows no files >> Just to be sure, I downloaded a new copy of the image from the maslin >> files, put it on a new 360kB disk, popped it into the k10, did user >> 10, dir, and NO FILES > > Are you sure there's supposed to be data there? I've never done a > from-scratch install on the K10, so I'm not sure what the process is. > > g. > Well, I would not know for sure, but the submit reload command you're supposed to run does: putsys putovl pip b:=a:*.*[g10v] and I read up on g10v, and it says that means to copy files from the user 10 area. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 14 14:03:09 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:03:09 -0800 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <01PG475Z89QE003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PG475Z89QE003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <548DECFD.6080804@sydex.com> On 12/14/2014 09:10 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Many years after performing this somewhat less than useful task, my advice is: > don't write your word processor in FORTRAN IV on an IBM S/370. On the other hand, WPs can be written quite successfully in BASIC running on a 3.5MHz 8085, given the necessary "hooks" (e.g. direct video displays). Pretty much full-featured too, with font changes and all of the usual stuff. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 14:10:32 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:10:32 -0000 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <548DECFD.6080804@sydex.com> References: <01PG475Z89QE003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <548DECFD.6080804@sydex.com> Message-ID: <07cb01d017da$03f6f510$0be4df30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 14 December 2014 20:03 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Favourite text based word processing software > > On 12/14/2014 09:10 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > Many years after performing this somewhat less than useful task, my > advice is: > > don't write your word processor in FORTRAN IV on an IBM S/370. > Having written X.25 Networking Software in Fortran-77 on an IBM 370 (among other systems) because my employer wanted it to be portable I think a line mode editor in Fortran might be fun. On the other hand I think your experience with Fortran programming at College is typical of that many received. I remember the classes when I was an under graduate at Newcastle upon Type poly. Too many students and inexperienced staff meant many never really learned Fortran properly. Fortunately I had already learnt Fortran II at school when was 17 , and Fortran 77 was a simple upgrade..... Dave > On the other hand, WPs can be written quite successfully in BASIC running on > a 3.5MHz 8085, given the necessary "hooks" (e.g. direct video displays). > Pretty much full-featured too, with font changes and all of the usual stuff. > > --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 14 16:47:10 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:47:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wanted: Sharp LM64C032 LCD panel Message-ID: I'm looking for a Sharp LM64C032 LCD (640x480, 16 color) as a replacement for a Compaq Contura 3/25C (25MHz 386). I saw a few far-east sellers on eBay with used displays, but they want over $100 for them which doesn't seem too economical for a machine with a value of around $50 or so. Does anyone happen to have one of these LCDs sitting around in their junk pile? I recently pulled the machine from storage and was thinking of using it to run my old parallel port interface EPROM programmer, but I can't do much with it with a broken display. The sad part is I actually installed this particular LCD for the original owner back in the early '90s, but apparently it got broken sometime before he gave me the machine. (The original panel failed electronically, and it is too bad I didn't keep it back then since I could have scavenged it for parts now.) From chd at chdickman.com Sun Dec 14 16:55:14 2014 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:55:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Physical Book Prices Message-ID: Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure computer geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I thought it would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in the family. I went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a new hardcover and $78 for a used hardcover. This is ridiculous. I thought it was only school books that were at totally unreasonable prices. Now, I can get the nook electronic version for $13.99 but this is a *coffee table book*, something to be displayed. It's geek porn. So then I went and looked at some other books that are niche. I enjoy analog design and a Jim Williams book is always good. "The Art and Science of Analog Design" which is about 15 years old is $50 in paperback. I guess the printed page is dead. Gutenberg RIP. From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 14 17:54:35 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:54:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Used books are where it's at! I've always believed in the value of the printed word and I've been steadily stocking my library all along :) Many good deals can be obtained on Amazon used, or through AbeBooks. It is true that art books can sometimes be hard to find and/or retain high values (esp. if they are out of print). In the case you cite above, the book is both niche and newly printed so the used market can't help there. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet if it's something you decide you really truly want. I think the most I ever paid for a book (outside of something required by a University course) was around $40 for an copy of Organick's /The Multics System/ that was in "excellent" condition. I collect records too, same dynamics. I consider a nicely done book or record as more a piece of art... it can retain value as an object of art or as a collectible... you don't necessarily spend $50 or $100 and it immediately depreciates to zero. I wouldn't say printing is dead but certainly it's moved upmarket. As well, in a way, it's somewhat less ephemeral than bits and bytes. As you say, the Nook version doesn't do much for your coffee table. Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure computer > geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I thought it > would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in the family. I > went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a new hardcover and > $78 for a used hardcover. > > This is ridiculous. I thought it was only school books that were at totally > unreasonable prices. > > Now, I can get the nook electronic version for $13.99 but this is a *coffee > table book*, something to be displayed. It's geek porn. > > So then I went and looked at some other books that are niche. I enjoy > analog design and a Jim Williams book is always good. "The Art and Science > of Analog Design" which is about 15 years old is $50 in paperback. > > I guess the printed page is dead. Gutenberg RIP. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 14 18:18:17 2014 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 19:18:17 -0500 Subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548E28C9.2020809@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/12/14 6:54 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Used books are where it's at! I've always believed in the value of the > printed word and I've been steadily stocking my library all along :) Many > good deals can be obtained on Amazon used, or through AbeBooks. ... > > I wouldn't say printing is dead but certainly it's moved upmarket. As well, I am hoping for a "premium" tier of ebooks. The current versions are typographically horrible (think 1987 DTP) and overpriced. I would expect this tier would have: * complete proofreading and debugging * high quality fonts * actual input from designers and typographers * all of the above leading to a better reading experience * high quality images (implying better UI, which puts pressure on the device platform itself...) If we are going to be screwed on price we should demand better quality :) Much as a high end print book has. (And the low end stabilised to "decent" layout and typography decades ago, thanks to farsighted paperback publishers like Penguin who invested in design and typography.) --Toby > in a way, it's somewhat less ephemeral than bits and bytes. As you say, the > Nook version doesn't do much for your coffee table. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > >> ... >> >> I guess the printed page is dead. Gutenberg RIP. >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 14 18:35:36 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:35:36 -0800 Subject: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548E2CD8.6020202@bitsavers.org> On 12/14/14 2:55 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I guess the printed page is dead. Welcome to the world of automated used book scalping. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 18:51:25 2014 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:51:25 -0600 Subject: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001501d01801$41df6de0$c59e49a0$@com> > -----Original Message----- > Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure > computer geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I > thought it would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in > the family. I went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a > new hardcover and > $78 for a used hardcover. Out of print books of limited quantity sold on Amazon tends to have ridiculous prices that have no reflection of actual interest or demand for the book. I've seen this on lots of books listed on Amazon and other places tend to check there to see what something is "worth" first. Just takes one person to list it for a high price and everyone else joins in. I bought that book when it first came out for $23.10 and Amazon later sold me the ebook for $2.99 since I bought the print version previously. It is a nice book but not really worth much more than that imo. I'll bet you most of those people aren't selling any copies either. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From rwhyre+cctalk at picrad.com Sun Dec 14 18:52:34 2014 From: rwhyre+cctalk at picrad.com (Ralph H) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 19:52:34 -0500 Subject: Looking for Stanford Ethernet AppleTalk Gateway (SEAGATE) source code In-Reply-To: <0446E594-9630-4E3B-A0F1-CD7A5C71729F@multicores.org> References: <68BD2180-3BF4-4E5C-9909-A6EBD2A95D7D@multicores.org> <548DB4C1.7000203@bitsavers.org> <0446E594-9630-4E3B-A0F1-CD7A5C71729F@multicores.org> Message-ID: I'm interested in that simh VM image. Feeling a bit nostalgic for a Vax 11/780 and 4.3BSD, even after having a Sun workstation on my assorted desks for about 8 years. On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Michael Engel wrote: > > > Hi, > > On 14 Dec 2014, at 16:03, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 12/13/14 9:48 PM, Michael Engel wrote: > >> > >> according to > >> > http://www.megalextoria.com/usenet-archive/news021f2/b37/fa/info-mac/00001680.html > >> Bill Croft at Stanford developed an Ethernet to Apple LocalTalk gateway > >> that ran on the original SUN 68000 CPU board. > >> > >> Unfortunately, I cannot find the files mentioned in that post on any > info-mac > >> mirror (or somewhere else on the net): > >> > > > > I've emailed you a copy, and I'll put the tarball up on bitsavers under > bits/Stanford > > Thanks, Al - got it, looks great! I also found two later versions of the > seagate source, > modified to run on Kinetics FastPath routers (68008/68000-based > single-board routers > with a 82586 Ethernet controller and a Z8530) and renamed "KIP": > https://stuff.mit.edu/afs/athena/astaff/project/snmp/cmu/kip/ > ftp://ftp.st.ryukoku.ac.jp:/pub/network/cap/AT-KIP/ > > > The code was built using the SUMEX C toolchain, derived from the MIT 68k > port of PCC, which > > is even harder to find. > > This is actually easy to find, SUMACC tools (actually a Mac cross > compiler, which works > fine for creating b.out binaries) are included in 4.3BSD's "new.tar.gz" > sources: > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/4BSD/Distributions/4.3BSD/new.tar.gz > > I have sumacc working on 4.3BSD/VAX in simh (my real VAXen are still in > Germany and > are too recent to run 4.3BSD or even Quasijarus) anyways. NetBSD+emulation > might work). > > The original SUN (and, presumably, also Codata) firmware was developed > using sumacc, > we are currently trying to get our own modifications to run using the > sunmon sources from > bitsavers. The sunmon sources compile after adding files from the PDF > source listing of an > older version (0.8) of sunmon (from > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/stanford/sun/SUN_Monitor_Listing_Aug81.pdf > ) > and writing some missing header files (mostly nec7210.h), but we are still > struggling with > strange bus errors that keep creeping up when trying to run the code on > the real machine. > It works fine in the (very incomplete) mess Codata emulator as well as a > hacked-up version > of a Verilog implementation of a small Codata subset + an attached VPI > 68000 simulator > (derived from Ben Herrenschmidt's minimigmac sources at > http://git.ozlabs.org/?p=minimigmac.git). > > I also got the sumacc compilers to compile on OS X, but these show bugs in > the parser > and code generator, resulting in crashes. I'll try to figure these out > over the Christmas > break... > > If anyone is interested in my simh VM image for VAX 11/780 with 4.3BSD, > the sumacc compilers > and the sunmon sources installed, please let me know. > > -- Michael > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 14 19:53:54 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:53:54 -0800 Subject: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: <001501d01801$41df6de0$c59e49a0$@com> References: <001501d01801$41df6de0$c59e49a0$@com> Message-ID: <548E3F32.406@sydex.com> On 12/14/2014 04:51 PM, David Williams wrote: > Out of print books of limited quantity sold on Amazon tends to have > ridiculous prices that have no reflection of actual interest or > demand for the book. I've seen this on lots of books listed on Amazon > and other places tend to check there to see what something is "worth" > first. Just takes one person to list it for a high price and everyone > else joins in. I bought that book when it first came out for $23.10 > and Amazon later sold me the ebook for $2.99 since I bought the print > version previously. It is a nice book but not really worth much more > than that imo. I'll bet you most of those people aren't selling any > copies either. As Al noted, used book prices via Amazon tend to have no relation to supply and demand or even common sense. See this doozy: http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 14 23:09:38 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 21:09:38 -0800 Subject: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: <548E3F32.406@sydex.com> References: <001501d01801$41df6de0$c59e49a0$@com> <548E3F32.406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548E6D12.4030307@jwsss.com> On 12/14/2014 5:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/14/2014 04:51 PM, David Williams wrote: > >> Out of print books of limited quantity sold on Amazon tends to have >> ridiculous prices that have no reflection of actual interest or >> demand for the book. I've seen this on lots of books listed on Amazon >> and other places tend to check there to see what something is "worth" >> first. Just takes one person to list it for a high price and everyone >> else joins in. I bought that book when it first came out for $23.10 >> and Amazon later sold me the ebook for $2.99 since I bought the print >> version previously. It is a nice book but not really worth much more >> than that imo. I'll bet you most of those people aren't selling any >> copies either. > > As Al noted, used book prices via Amazon tend to have no relation to > supply and demand or even common sense. See this doozy: > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 > > --Chuck > > > I use alibris.com, biblio.com and abebooks.com. Some sellers also cross list onto amazon. I don't know if the listed books on amazon have a way to upload via other than sending a CSV list, but it is easy to see where things can go sideways if you export your database, and then massage it and send the resulting 10 or 15k books to amazon. The gaming of the prices is interesting, but I always shop across all 4 sites. They don't do it in sync apparently. The core book was 60 bucks on one of the sites, and sounds good enough to snag. If it is a good enough reference and not just pretty pictures, I'll get the ebook. I have several books in the pile to scan, that I have not gotten to yet and many I owe to Al, so an ebook in the online library I have would be nice. thanks Jim From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 14 23:12:11 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 21:12:11 -0800 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair In-Reply-To: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> Message-ID: <548E6DAB.7060006@jwsss.com> On 12/14/2014 9:25 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > hello all, > > I'm in the process of repairing our 101 but i hit a solid wall finding > out whats wrong with it. are there people with a working copy who > could do some measurements on their copy? > > Unfortunately i have no schematic of the electronics, only the > mechanics and PSU. > > I have made a crappy video of the scope trace of the delay line input > and i'm very interested in a video of a working machine's delay line. :-) > > The video is here: http://youtu.be/llpwjGeldt0 > > and a partially repairlog is here: > https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101 > > als scematics are welcome as well. :-) Simon, did you come up with a copy of this book, and not just the cover? Is it distributable by the datamuseum? I'd like a copy in case I get to try to restore my 101. I'd let you have mine to use for a reference, but we are too far apart. I'd love to see one more running event if it isn't mine. Did you snag any data cards? thanks Jim From simski at dds.nl Mon Dec 15 04:29:17 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:29:17 +0100 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair In-Reply-To: <548E6DAB.7060006@jwsss.com> References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> <548E6DAB.7060006@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <548EB7FD.8080305@dds.nl> we have one datacard but the rollers in the reader are gone to goo. Fixing that is the last thing on my mind at the moment. :-) the diameter of the rubber rollers on our version with the geared printer drive (older versions had a separate belt) is +/- 12mm. I've taken the electronics module apart as I want to find out where the clock is generated or derived from as there is no xtal on the machine and there is no ac from the psu going to the electronics. On 15-12-14 06:12, jwsmobile wrote: > On 12/14/2014 9:25 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> hello all, >> >> I'm in the process of repairing our 101 but i hit a solid wall finding >> out whats wrong with it. are there people with a working copy who >> could do some measurements on their copy? >> >> Unfortunately i have no schematic of the electronics, only the >> mechanics and PSU. >> >> I have made a crappy video of the scope trace of the delay line input >> and i'm very interested in a video of a working machine's delay line. :-) >> >> The video is here: http://youtu.be/llpwjGeldt0 >> >> and a partially repairlog is here: >> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101 >> >> als scematics are welcome as well. :-) > Simon, > did you come up with a copy of this book, and not just the cover? Is it > distributable by the datamuseum? I'd like a copy in case I get to try > to restore my 101. > > I'd let you have mine to use for a reference, but we are too far apart. > I'd love to see one more running event if it isn't mine. > > Did you snag any data cards? > thanks > Jim > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Dec 15 06:11:20 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:11:20 +0000 Subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: <548E28C9.2020809@telegraphics.com.au> References: <548E28C9.2020809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20141215121120.GA176178@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 07:18:17PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: [...] > I am hoping for a "premium" tier of ebooks. The current versions are > typographically horrible (think 1987 DTP) and overpriced. > I would expect this tier would have: > * complete proofreading and debugging > * high quality fonts > * actual input from designers and typographers > * all of the above leading to a better reading experience > * high quality images (implying better UI, which puts pressure on > the device platform itself...) Are you objecting to ebook pricing in general, or just Kindle? Because the Kindle platform is a joke. The hardware's crap, the UI is worse, and the books I tried were badly OCRed from paperbacks and not proofread. Bizarrely, even out-of-copyright works that have excellent versions on Project Gutenberg were also shoddy. Some of Apple's free samples were similarly half-jobbed. I note that ebooks I've bought through Humble Bundle and direct from O'Reilly and a few other places are of reasonable-to-good quality. This suggests that it's just the big names that are cutting corners because they are making money hand-over-fist without needing to do it well. However, you missed "good library management". Kindle, iBooks, etc seem to be designed as if one's library is a half-dozen pulp novels which are thrown away when done. My iTunes library contains 692 "books" -- some pulp novels, but mostly technical documentation and papers -- and it's already unmanageable. In particular, ebook readers don't let me have a half-dozen documents open and have poor random-access so I can't easily skip around checking references. > If we are going to be screwed on price we should demand better quality :) Or just pirate them :) > Much as a high end print book has. (And the low end stabilised to "decent" > layout and typography decades ago, thanks to farsighted paperback publishers > like Penguin who invested in design and typography.) You still see this in self-published books where there wasn't an editor who would quietly take the corrupted Word document and burn it, then re-typeset it with sensible styles and no Comic Sans or Papyrus. And then we come to self-published books on Kindle. *shudder* From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 15 07:23:58 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:23:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201412151323.IAA11907@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Two tape marks is just a convention used by some software to indicate > the logical EOT. It has no special meaning for the hardware. Perhaps on some drives (such as 9-tracks). But I did run into one drive, one of the relatively modern cartridge drives with tapes about the size of a TK50, which had a relatively elaborate encoding scheme in which EOT was different from two consecutive tapemarks, but it mapped between the two in each direction and the drive refused to even try to read past EOT. In order to recover data that had been written over, the recommended procedure was to write enough to overwrite the EOT mark and then power down the drive while it was writing more. (Recommended by users, not the maker IIRC.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rickb at bensene.com Mon Dec 15 08:32:57 2014 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:32:57 -0800 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair In-Reply-To: <548EB7FD.8080305@dds.nl> References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> <548E6DAB.7060006@jwsss.com> <548EB7FD.8080305@dds.nl> Message-ID: Simon C. wrote: > I've taken the electronics module apart as I want to find out where the clock > is generated or derived from as there is no xtal on the machine and there is > no ac from the psu going to the electronics. > The clock is likely derived from a simple R/C oscillator, with some buffer drivers on the output(s) to provide enough drive current to feed the clocked logic of the machine. No crystal is really needed. Variations in clock speed over time isn't really a big deal with electronic calculators. The key thing is that the designs based on delay lines usually have some kind of timing bit(s) that are injected into the delay line that help sync the timing of the delay line with the rest of the clocked logic. Most old electronic calculators had main clock speeds (which was generally always divided down to various phases) in the 40KhZ to 100KHz range. Even at these modest speeds, it was easy for the machines to be much faster than the mechanical machines that they very quickly made obsolete. -Rick Bensene From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 15 09:54:21 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro 10 HDD install needed In-Reply-To: <548DEA9E.4060004@jbrain.com> References: <548BA32B.9020901@jbrain.com> <548BC967.8010204@jbrain.com> <548BDE90.5030706@jbrain.com> <548DEA9E.4060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Jim Brain wrote: >> > Well, I would not know for sure, but the submit reload command you're > supposed to run does: > > putsys > putovl > pip b:=a:*.*[g10v] > > and I read up on g10v, and it says that means to copy files from the user 10 > area. Hrm. Have you checked the other user areas on the disk to see if there's stuff in places other than user 0? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 15 10:10:24 2014 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:10:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Charles Dickman wrote: > Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure computer > geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I thought it > would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in the family. I > went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a new hardcover and > $78 for a used hardcover. > Charles, is it called "Core Memory Reporter Notebook"? If so, you can get it for $2.21 here: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1400429227&searchurl=tn%3DCore+Memory%26an%3Dmark+richards%26sts%3Dt That website is my go-to place when I'm looking for books that are WAY over priced on Amazon. I recently bought a copy of the 6th edition of Charles Petzold's Programming Windows from there for $17. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 15 10:47:02 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:47:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: KTF11-AA chips Message-ID: <20141215164702.C622518C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I've been told that KTF11-AA chips are hard to find.. I saw this on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111541083331 (I've bought from this seller before, their stuff has always worked.) Noel From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Mon Dec 15 11:06:31 2014 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:06:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? Message-ID: <4B62E670-4A24-41B4-95CB-12DD0049CA4F@kd7bcy.com> So in function checking the PDP-11 now that the Series/1 is out of the basement and I have room to move the unit around and plug it in, I have discovered that it doesn't appear to transmit data from the console port on the back. I have tried two terminals(WY99) and two different PC's(Windows laptop with hardware serial port and a Mac with a USB adapter) with various software, a half dozen different cables, and every conceivable switch setting on the PDP with nothing to show for it aside from a lot of time spent the last couple of weekends. So when I power up, the LED display on the front counts down through the numbers and stops at 4. As near as I can tell, this is something of a good sign. But nothing ever comes up on a connected terminal. Sometimes pressing keys on the terminal results in the RUN light turning off, other times it does nothing. This would seem to indicate that the PDP knows that something is trying to talk to it, but it is not sending data out. Short of spending an entire day disassembling half the machine and tracing every wire hoping to find something out of place, does anyone have any ideas on what may be happening here, or what to look for? ------------ John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net ------------ From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 11:56:06 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:56:06 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? In-Reply-To: <4B62E670-4A24-41B4-95CB-12DD0049CA4F@kd7bcy.com> References: <4B62E670-4A24-41B4-95CB-12DD0049CA4F@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: Here is one possible thing to check: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf "2.2.2.4 Console Enable - The system console is enabled by setting switch 1 to the off position. This also sets a 1 in register bit 7. If the switch is in the on position, the system console is disabled and bit 7 is reset to 0. If the system console is disabled, the output line to the console is suppressed. Any input from the console results in an error message to inform the user that the console is disabled." Switch 1 is on the DIP switchpack next to the LEDs on the M8190 KDJ11-B CPU board. If you haven't checked that switch yet you might want to make sure it is set to the off position, or just try toggling it and see if it makes any difference in the console behavior. Switch 1 is also wired to 7 pin connector J3 on the M8190 CPU board. I don't know if there is normally anything connected to J3 in an 11/84 configuration. -Glen On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:06 AM, John Rollins wrote: > So in function checking the PDP-11 now that the Series/1 is out of the basement and I have room to move the unit around and plug it in, I have discovered that it doesn't appear to transmit data from the console port on the back. I have tried two terminals(WY99) and two different PC's(Windows laptop with hardware serial port and a Mac with a USB adapter) with various software, a half dozen different cables, and every conceivable switch setting on the PDP with nothing to show for it aside from a lot of time spent the last couple of weekends. > > So when I power up, the LED display on the front counts down through the numbers and stops at 4. As near as I can tell, this is something of a good sign. But nothing ever comes up on a connected terminal. Sometimes pressing keys on the terminal results in the RUN light turning off, other times it does nothing. This would seem to indicate that the PDP knows that something is trying to talk to it, but it is not sending data out. > > Short of spending an entire day disassembling half the machine and tracing every wire hoping to find something out of place, does anyone have any ideas on what may be happening here, or what to look for? > > > ------------ > John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com > Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net > ------------ > > From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 12:05:06 2014 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:05:06 -0600 Subject: PET/CBM Book available Message-ID: <002101d01891$a9800b90$fc8022b0$@com> I have a spare copy of the PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide Second Edition by Adam Osborne & Carroll S. Donahue published by Osborne/McGraw-Hill available. If you are interested make me an offer. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 15 12:47:46 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:47:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? Message-ID: <20141215184746.50A9F18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Rollins > it doesn't appear to transmit data from the console port on the back. I > have tried ... every conceivable switch setting on the PDP with nothing > ... > So when I power up, the LED display on the front counts down through > the numbers and stops at 4. As near as I can tell, this is something of a > good sign. Should be; my User's+Maint Guide says that means "Dialog Mode: Waiting for input". > Short of spending an entire day disassembling half the machine and > tracing every wire hoping to find something out of place, does anyone > have any ideas on what may be happening here, or what to look for? I asssume you've tried setting the baud rate with the switches on the CPU card (in case the cable to the back panel is damaged - or, more likely, the rotary baud select switch has a bad contact due to corrosion over time)? If you have the parts, fabricating a substitute serial interface cable would also be something to try. The next step would normally be to disable the on-board serial interface, and provide a substitute console interface, out on the bus. _Alas_, as far as I can tell from reading the KDB11-B User's Guide (EK-KDJ1B-UG-001), there is no way to disable the on-board serial interface. AFAIK, the prints for the 11/84 (MP-02536/MP-01955) don't seem to be online. I can't locate prints for the 11/83 (uses the same CPU board, I think) either. So I can't check to make sure that it is in fact impossible to disable the on-board serial interface. And the other next step, to look at the serial output and see if it looks OK, will be a little tricky without prints, although the KDB11-B User's Guide does contain something about it, on pp. 5-38 to 5-41 (165-168 of the PDF). Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 15 13:31:11 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:31:11 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches Message-ID: This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches for classic computer restoration I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the ones for D connectors (and others). One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is a respected manufacturer of them? Not cheap, but then I can't afford the cheap ones. Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a handheld hydraulic device that fits on said punches. It is darn expensive, but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it is just faster then I am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 13:41:06 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:41:06 -0600 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know about the hydraulic part, but I've had really like my Greenlee punches. On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM, tony duell wrote: > > This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches > for classic computer restoration > > I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the > ones for D connectors (and others). > > One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is > a respected manufacturer of them? > Not cheap, but then I can't afford the cheap ones. > > Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a > handheld hydraulic device that fits > on said punches. It is darn expensive, but I want to know what advantages > it gives. If it is just faster then I > am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 13:53:03 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:53:03 -0800 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548F3C1F.30007@sydex.com> On 12/15/2014 11:31 AM, tony duell wrote: > This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches for classic computer restoration > > I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the ones for D connectors (and others). > > One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is a respected manufacturer of them? > Not cheap, but then I can't afford the cheap ones. > > Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a handheld hydraulic device that fits > on said punches. It is darn expensive, but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it is just faster then I > am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be. I don't know about the Quick-Draw hydraulic, but I have a set of Greenlee chassis punches that I've owned for over 40 years and they still work fine. I also have a set of Japanese punches from around that time--and they're fine as well. I suspect that the "Quick draw" comes in handy if you're an electrical contractor punching holes in steel utility boxes (i.e. thicker steel), but for ordinary electronics chassis work, the wrench-drive one should be fine. Greenlee's a Textron company. Generally speaking, Textron products are expensive, but very well made. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 15 13:52:49 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:52:49 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > I don't know about the hydraulic part, but I've had really like my Greenlee > punches. That is the sort of thing I've read elsewhere. Greenlee are not cheap, but they do the job and last. The brand we used to use in the UK was Q-max [1] but they don't do the sizes I need [1] Again a good brand IMHO. I convinced my father to buy me the 5/8", 3/4" and 1+1/8" ones about 35 years ago. I am still using them. Of course those are the sizes for B7G, B9A and Octal valveholders... I think the company started out making RF (and IF?) coils, hence the name. The ones I am looking at are the conventional 'tighten the bolt' ones albeit with a thrust type ball race on the bolt to reduce the torque needed. The published specs exceed what I need to do (they are specified to punch 1.6mm mild steel, the thickest I want to do is 1.2mm). The hydraulic thingy seems to fit in place of the nut and pulls the punch bolt through the metal into the die. Nowhere can I find info on what advantage it gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to get one. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 15 13:40:06 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:40:06 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? In-Reply-To: <20141215184746.50A9F18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141215184746.50A9F18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <548F3916.5030405@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/12/2014 18:47, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: John Rollins it doesn't appear to transmit data from the >> console port on the back. I have tried ... every conceivable switch >> setting on the PDP with nothing > I asssume you've tried setting the baud rate with the switches on the > CPU card (in case the cable to the back panel is damaged - or, more > likely, the rotary baud select switch has a bad contact due to > corrosion over time)? The normal setting is all 8 switches in the pack at E83 (beside the LEDs) off. Switch 1 is to do with the console SLU (see below). 2, 3 and 4 set the boot device (all off means boot according to the settings in the EEPROM; all on means power up in ODT providing switch 1 is off). Switch 5 is the "force dialog mode" switch - on an 11/83, setting 1 and 5 on is used to "disable customer access to setup", to prevent the most common cause of the not booting correctly problem. If switch 5 is on, the CPU won't go into dialog mode. 6, 7, and 8 set the baud rate, providing the rotary switch on the panel is either disconnected or set to 7 or set to 15. For 9600 set 6 and 8 on, 7 off; for 1200 set 7 on, 6 and 8 off. All on is 38400; all off is 300. > If you have the parts, fabricating a substitute serial interface > cable would also be something to try. Always a a useful device for QBus machines. The same cable fits KDF11-B, KDJ11-B, DLV11-J, MXV11-A, MXV11-B, etc. > The next step would normally be to disable the on-board serial > interface, and provide a substitute console interface, out on the > bus. _Alas_, as far as I can tell from reading the KDB11-B User's > Guide (EK-KDJ1B-UG-001), there is no way to disable the on-board > serial interface. Actually, setting switch 1 (in the pack at E83, beside the LEDs) on should disable the console, but I know that at least on early boards it doesn't (wasn't implemented) and I can't remember if that's a hardware issue or a ROM function. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 14:06:47 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:06:47 -0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 15 December 2014 19:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: OT : Chassis punches > > > I don't know about the hydraulic part, but I've had really like my > > Greenlee punches. > > That is the sort of thing I've read elsewhere. Greenlee are not cheap, but > they do the job and last. The brand we used to use in the UK was Q-max [1] > but they don't do the sizes I need > > [1] Again a good brand IMHO. I convinced my father to buy me the 5/8", 3/4" > and 1+1/8" ones about 35 years ago. I am still using them. Of course those > are the sizes for B7G, B9A and Octal valveholders... I think the company > started out making RF (and IF?) coils, hence the name. > > The ones I am looking at are the conventional 'tighten the bolt' ones albeit > with a thrust type ball race on the bolt to reduce the torque needed. The > published specs exceed what I need to do (they are specified to punch > 1.6mm mild steel, the thickest I want to do is 1.2mm). > > The hydraulic thingy seems to fit in place of the nut and pulls the punch bolt > through the metal into the die. Nowhere can I find info on what advantage it > gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to get one. Well the manual says the foot pump also allows you to use both hands to position the punch. The big advantage of the hydraulics is that you will put more of the effort into pulling the die through the steel. The problem with the bolt version is that the tension in the bolt increases the friction between the bolt and the threads. This makes it hard to tighten the nut, even with a ball bearing. With this system the friction will stay the same. These days being old and feeble I think I might buy the hydraulic version... > > -tony Dave G4UGM From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 15 14:10:24 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:10:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141215115912.E78524@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote: > One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that > is a respected manufacturer of them? Yes. They are the standard ones around here. Or used to be; I'm not in touch with latest (<30 years) fads. Enough so that when I say "Greenlee chassis punch", it is more likely to be understood than if I just say "chassis punch". The round ones are common in automotive use. I always wanted a DB and a DE. I could be wrong, but I assume that the hydraulic and pneumatic devices are for increased production, speed, and reduced effort. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 15 14:12:20 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:12:20 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Well the manual says the foot pump also allows you to use both hands to > position the punch. I can see that if you have the type that fits on a bench press arrangement, but I am looking at the ones where you drill the centre hole and fit the punch one side of the panel and the die the other. So not having 2 hands free is not that important > The big advantage of the hydraulics is that you will put more of the effort > into pulling the die through the steel. > The problem with the bolt version is that the tension in the bolt increases > the friction between the bolt and the threads. > This makes it hard to tighten the nut, even with a ball bearing. With this > system the friction will stay the same. True. So it might increase the cutting capacity. On the other hand the instructions for the hydraulic pump warn time and again about trying to go through too think a panel. apparently if the bolt breaks it's spectacular. > These days being old and feeble I think I might buy the hydraulic version... Thing is, the punches are around \pounds 100 each (!). The hydraulic add-on is over \pounds 400 (it fits all the punches, I would only need to buy one). I can just about afford it, but I don't want to spend money if I don't have to. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 15 14:22:38 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:22:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> References: , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20141215121224.T78524@shell.lmi.net> > gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to get one. Would perhpas the hydraulic have less of a tendency for the entire punch to turn? That's never been a serious problem for me. BTW, the Harbor Freight one is called "Knockout Punch" for the manual ones, and "Hydraulic Punch Driver Kit" for their $90 hydraulic set, but Tony will want to stick with Greenlee. And, the Harbor Freight one does not have a wide range, with no special shapes other than round. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 15 14:32:10 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:32:10 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <20141215121224.T78524@shell.lmi.net> References: , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com>, <20141215121224.T78524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > BTW, the Harbor Freight one is called "Knockout Punch" for the manual > ones, and "Hydraulic Punch Driver Kit" for their $90 hydraulic set, but > Tony will want to stick with Greenlee. And, the Harbor Freight one does > not have a wide range, with no special shapes other than round. >From what I have read on various websites, the harbor Frieght ones are not good quality (failing after 3 uses has been reported). No thanks!. I am still not rich enough to buy cheap tools. And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D connector ones (amongst others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are being considered too.. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 14:44:26 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:44:26 -0800 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com>, <20141215121224.T78524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <548F482A.2090109@sydex.com> On 12/15/2014 12:32 PM, tony duell wrote: > And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D connector ones (amongst > others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are > being considered too.. I'm curious if anyone has tried using a big router with a carbide or diamond bit and a template to do the odd shapes. Of course, the advantage of punches is that a smooth edge is the result. I recall that the model shop guy at one location where I worked didn't fool with Greenlee--he said that they were probably fine for field work, but he relied on his Pexto punches (now part of Roper-Whitney) to do that sort of thing in the shop. I suspect you'll find a Pexto or close relative in most sheet-metal fab shops. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 14:44:26 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:44:26 -0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 15 December 2014 20:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: OT : Chassis punches > > > Well the manual says the foot pump also allows you to use both hands > > to position the punch. > > I can see that if you have the type that fits on a bench press arrangement, > but I am looking at the ones where you drill the centre hole and fit the punch > one side of the panel and the die the other. So not having 2 hands free is not > that important > > > The big advantage of the hydraulics is that you will put more of the > > effort into pulling the die through the steel. > > The problem with the bolt version is that the tension in the bolt > > increases the friction between the bolt and the threads. > > This makes it hard to tighten the nut, even with a ball bearing. With > > this system the friction will stay the same. > > True. So it might increase the cutting capacity. On the other hand the > instructions for the hydraulic pump warn time and again about trying to go > through too think a panel. apparently if the bolt breaks it's spectacular. I would think it would be spectacular. The tension must be tremendous. > > > These days being old and feeble I think I might buy the hydraulic version... > > Thing is, the punches are around \pounds 100 each (!). The hydraulic add-on > is over \pounds 400 (it fits all the punches, I would only need to buy one). I > can just about afford it, but I don't want to spend money if I don't have to. Ah, at that price it would be cheaper to engage my Rugby Playing Number 3 son. Even if I pay him ?10/Hour I can get a lot of holes punched for ?400... ... and he would have no problems with the original method. > > -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 15 14:49:41 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 15:49:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? Message-ID: <20141215204941.C29D618C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > Actually, setting switch 1 (in the pack at E83, beside the LEDs) on > should disable the console ... I can't remember if that's a hardware > issue or a ROM function. The manual (Section 2.2.2.4, EK-KDJ1B-UG-001 - thanks for the tip about that section, Glen :-) sure makes it sound like it's in software: "Any input from the console results in an error message to inform the user that the console is disabled" - I doubt that functionality is implemented in the UART... :-) Noel From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 15 14:51:39 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:51:39 -0000 Subject: confirm [...] References: <20141214140945.GA146047@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <002701d018a8$f3a45570$4be4190a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Corlett" To: Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 2:09 PM Subject: Re: confirm [...] > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 03:49:03AM -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to excessive > > bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 14-Dec-2014. You will > > not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership. > > You will receive 3 more reminders like this before your membership in the > > list is deleted. > > Is anybody else getting these messages? I've had a furkle through the mail > server logs and see no evidence of cctalk bounces. > Yes, I have been getting these on and off for the past few months (roughly once every two weeks or so). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk P.S. Not gonna ask what a furkle is, but I will say that is the first time I have heard that word. From simski at dds.nl Mon Dec 15 04:39:31 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:39:31 +0100 Subject: Hot Wire to Cut PVA Bond Between a CRT and Its Safety Lens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548EBA63.20802@dds.nl> ahum: lmgtfy.com/?q=hot+wire+diy# :-) On 07-12-14 18:47, Bob Vines wrote: > Does anyone have instructions or a schematic (or a pointer to a URL) > on how to make a "hot wire" device to cut the PVA bond between a CRT > and its safety lens? What kind of power supply (how much power), "hot > wire," etc.? > > I'd like to build one of these "hot wire" devices, *safely*. > > > Thanks, > > Bob > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 15 14:55:02 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:55:02 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> , <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > True. So it might increase the cutting capacity. On the other hand the > > instructions for the hydraulic pump warn time and again about trying to go > > through too think a panel. apparently if the bolt breaks it's spectacular. > > I would think it would be spectacular. The tension must be tremendous. And I certainly don't want to be in the firing line... More seriously I suspect this is much more likely to happen with the hydraulic tool than with the nut and spanner. So even if I had the hydraulic add-on I mght not use it that much. > Ah, at that price it would be cheaper to engage my Rugby Playing Number 3 > son. Even if I pay him ?10/Hour I can get a lot of holes punched for > ?400... > ... and he would have no problems with the original method. Having repaired the suspension, etc on my father's car (before he sadly passed away [1]), I have had to torque bolts to 200 lb.ft and more (and yes I do own a torque wrench going that high). I also had to undo the bolts when they had been originally done up to that torque and then suffered general corrosion, etc. It's amazing how much torque you can exert with a T-bar on a socket set. [1] In case it's not clear, these had nothing to do with each other, He was not killed in a car crash. Given that the spec of the plain Greenlee punch I am looking at (without any mention of the hydraulic add-on) exceeds what I want to do with it, I am guessing I can save the money here. -tony > > -tony From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Dec 15 15:07:41 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:07:41 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) Message-ID: OK, so somewhat weekly questions. Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic of drum style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What was this characteristic? I don't miss the noise of those devices and it seemed like no matter how careful you were when changing the ribbon you would smudge your hands. Doug Ingraham From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 15:19:42 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 15:19:42 -0600 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my experience, Greenlee is the industrial standard for metal punches. As duly noted, they are not cheap but of excellent quality - and will last a typical user's lifetime. As for the Quick-Draw device, if you think about it, I really cannot increase the maximum force / material thickness that the punch can work. Whether the punch is driven manually or automatically, the weakest link in the chain is the same - the tensile strength of the threaded portion of the drawbolt. However, it would reduce one of the major wear points, which is the threaded connection between the die & drawbolt. With the hydraulic device, you no longer need to drive the thread to develop the pulling force - the hydraulic piston develops that force for you, so no need to drive the thread. But in my experience, I suspect that the cutting edges of the die would dull before threadwear became a point of concern. If you want to speed-up the operation, drive the punch through with an impact wrench once you've got it properly started. On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:52 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > I don't know about the hydraulic part, but I've had really like my > Greenlee > > punches. > > That is the sort of thing I've read elsewhere. Greenlee are not cheap, but > they > do the job and last. The brand we used to use in the UK was Q-max [1] but > they don't do the sizes I need > > [1] Again a good brand IMHO. I convinced my father to buy me the 5/8", 3/4" > and 1+1/8" ones about 35 years ago. I am still using them. Of course those > are > the sizes for B7G, B9A and Octal valveholders... I think the company > started out > making RF (and IF?) coils, hence the name. > > The ones I am looking at are the conventional 'tighten the bolt' ones > albeit with > a thrust type ball race on the bolt to reduce the torque needed. The > published > specs exceed what I need to do (they are specified to punch 1.6mm mild > steel, > the thickest I want to do is 1.2mm). > > The hydraulic thingy seems to fit in place of the nut and pulls the punch > bolt > through the metal into the die. Nowhere can I find info on what advantage > it > gives. If it's just quicker then I am not going to get one. > > -tony > From pinball at telus.net Mon Dec 15 15:21:18 2014 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:21:18 -0800 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <548F482A.2090109@sydex.com> References: , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com>, <20141215121224.T78524@shell.lmi.net> <548F482A.2090109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548F50CE.10103@telus.net> On 12/15/2014, 12:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/15/2014 12:32 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D connector ones (amongst >> others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are >> being considered too.. > > I'm curious if anyone has tried using a big router with a carbide or > diamond bit and a template to do the odd shapes. Of course, the > advantage of punches is that a smooth edge is the result. > Sort of a HNC machine (Human Numeric Control)? I'd be wanting good ear protection! > ... > --Chuck > > > John :-#)# From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 15:21:59 2014 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:21:59 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The characters would not be necessarily aligned perfectly horizontally due to slight timing differences. -Ian On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > OK, so somewhat weekly questions. > > Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic of > drum style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What > was this characteristic? > > > I don't miss the noise of those devices and it seemed like no matter how > careful you were when changing the ribbon you would smudge your hands. > > > Doug Ingraham From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 15 15:28:44 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com>, <20141215121224.T78524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20141215132101.P78524@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote: > From what I have read on various websites, the harbor Frieght ones are > not good quality (failing after 3 uses has been reported). No thanks!. > I am still not rich enough to buy cheap tools. I'm never sure how seriously to take those "reviews". MOST of them seemed to be people trying to make holes through heavy stainless steel sinks. AND, significant percentage were baffled by "1/2 inch" meaning "i/2 inch PIPE" (which is of course larger than 1/2") I haven't tried the Harbor Freight ones; I have a set of Greenlees that I bought 40 years ago (and it was old then). > And anyway, I am specifically looking at the D connector ones (amongst > others). I certainly want DB and DD but the other 3 (DA, DC, DE) are > being considered too.. Yes. Chuck's suggestion of router jig could probably be made adjustable for multiple sizes. But I've always considered a chassis punch to be the best way to make holes in sheet metal. Y'know, it wouldn't be very hard to make an aligning system to use the punches in a small arbor press, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 15:29:58 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:29:58 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548F52D6.9020402@sydex.com> On 12/15/2014 01:07 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > OK, so somewhat weekly questions. > > Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic of > drum style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What > was this characteristic? Sounded like a machine gun, the CDC 501 did. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 15 15:31:26 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:31:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141215133009.Q78524@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > If you want to speed-up the operation, drive the punch through with an > impact wrench once you've got it properly started. On tools that I own, such as chassis punches and screw pullers, I will not let people use impact wrenches on lead screws. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 15:31:12 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:31:12 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548F5320.1040305@sydex.com> And yep, it was the "wavy" type style. I recall some Univac 1108 engineering manuals that were nearly impossible to read. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 15:32:58 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:32:58 -0800 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <201412151323.IAA11907@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> <201412151323.IAA11907@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <548F538A.1070005@sydex.com> On 12/15/2014 05:23 AM, Mouse wrote: >> Two tape marks is just a convention used by some software to indicate >> the logical EOT. It has no special meaning for the hardware. Yeah, but those are a different animal altogether. I was referring to the good old reel-to-reel. --Chuck From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 15:58:44 2014 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 15:58:44 -0600 Subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: <20141215121120.GA176178@mooli.org.uk> References: <548E28C9.2020809@telegraphics.com.au> <20141215121120.GA176178@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: For a partial solution to library management, there's Calibre ( calibre-ebook.com). It's free. The poor random access is a pain, and usually why I don't use eBooks for technical works (or anything where it's helpful to be able to flip around in the text). --Joseph Lenox On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 07:18:17PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: > [...] > > I am hoping for a "premium" tier of ebooks. The current versions are > > typographically horrible (think 1987 DTP) and overpriced. > > I would expect this tier would have: > > * complete proofreading and debugging > > * high quality fonts > > * actual input from designers and typographers > > * all of the above leading to a better reading experience > > * high quality images (implying better UI, which puts pressure on > > the device platform itself...) > > Are you objecting to ebook pricing in general, or just Kindle? Because the > Kindle platform is a joke. The hardware's crap, the UI is worse, and the > books > I tried were badly OCRed from paperbacks and not proofread. Bizarrely, > even > out-of-copyright works that have excellent versions on Project Gutenberg > were > also shoddy. Some of Apple's free samples were similarly half-jobbed. > > I note that ebooks I've bought through Humble Bundle and direct from > O'Reilly > and a few other places are of reasonable-to-good quality. This suggests > that > it's just the big names that are cutting corners because they are making > money > hand-over-fist without needing to do it well. > > However, you missed "good library management". Kindle, iBooks, etc seem > to be > designed as if one's library is a half-dozen pulp novels which are thrown > away > when done. My iTunes library contains 692 "books" -- some pulp novels, but > mostly technical documentation and papers -- and it's already > unmanageable. In > particular, ebook readers don't let me have a half-dozen documents open and > have poor random-access so I can't easily skip around checking references. > > > If we are going to be screwed on price we should demand better quality :) > > Or just pirate them :) > > > Much as a high end print book has. (And the low end stabilised to > "decent" > > layout and typography decades ago, thanks to farsighted paperback > publishers > > like Penguin who invested in design and typography.) > > You still see this in self-published books where there wasn't an editor who > would quietly take the corrupted Word document and burn it, then > re-typeset it > with sensible styles and no Comic Sans or Papyrus. > > And then we come to self-published books on Kindle. *shudder* > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 15 16:29:19 2014 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 22:29:19 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? In-Reply-To: <20141215204941.C29D618C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141215204941.C29D618C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <548F60BF.2030905@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/12/2014 20:49, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > > Actually, setting switch 1 (in the pack at E83, beside the LEDs) on > > should disable the console ... I can't remember if that's a hardware > > issue or a ROM function. > > The manual (Section 2.2.2.4, EK-KDJ1B-UG-001 - thanks for the tip about that > section, Glen :-) sure makes it sound like it's in software: "Any input from > the console results in an error message to inform the user that the console > is disabled" - I doubt that functionality is implemented in the UART... :-) Indeed, but what I meant was I couldn't remember if it disables the console by disabling its addresses, or merely ignoring input. Apparently the latter. And it tells you off, to boot :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 17:33:49 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:33:49 -0000 Subject: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013001d018bf$948b6d50$bda247f0$@gmail.com> Well I thought I had seen some silly prices, with folks wanting ?40 or ?50 for the hardback of James Small's "The Analogue Alternative" but this beats the lot... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141508987823 I wonder if some one has the point in the wrong place , ?18 perhaps... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: 15 December 2014 16:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: Physical Book Prices > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2014, Charles Dickman wrote: > > > Back in 2007 Stan Barr posted a comment about a book that was pure > > computer geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman. I > > thought it would be a good stocking stuffer for myself from someone in > > the family. I went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 for a > > new hardcover and > > $78 for a used hardcover. > > > > Charles, is it called "Core Memory Reporter Notebook"? If so, you can get it > for $2.21 here: > http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1400429227&searchur > l=tn%3DCore+Memory%26an%3Dmark+richards%26sts%3Dt > > That website is my go-to place when I'm looking for books that are WAY over > priced on Amazon. I recently bought a copy of the 6th edition of Charles > Petzold's Programming Windows from there for $17. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 17:43:07 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:43:07 -0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015701d018c0$e0d70600$a2851200$@gmail.com> Where I worked the un-even text was referred to as "Dancing Text" ..... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug > Ingraham > Sent: 15 December 2014 21:08 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) > > OK, so somewhat weekly questions. > > Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic of drum > style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What was this > characteristic? > > > I don't miss the noise of those devices and it seemed like no matter how > careful you were when changing the ribbon you would smudge your hands. > > > Doug Ingraham From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 18:28:11 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:28:11 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: <015701d018c0$e0d70600$a2851200$@gmail.com> References: <015701d018c0$e0d70600$a2851200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <548F7C9B.3020701@sydex.com> On 12/15/2014 03:43 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Where I worked the un-even text was referred to as "Dancing Text" ..... Heh. The CDC 501 printer had a switch inside the cabinet (but accessible to operators) that was marked "high" and "low" speed. Basically, it offered the choice of "Do you want your output readable or do you want it fast?" IIRC, the speeds were something like 500 LPM and 1000 LPM. --Chuck From bensinc at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 18:40:46 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 18:40:46 -0600 Subject: Nice LSI-11 brochure In-Reply-To: <20141214141727.EE8A218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141214141727.EE8A218C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Very true! It looks like it covers my 11/23, and at least the 11/23+ for sure. It will be fun to look through! On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > It's now mine! > > Well, you didn't have a lot of competetion... :-) > > Noel > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 19:00:13 2014 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:00:13 -0600 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <20141215133009.Q78524@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141215133009.Q78524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Howdy Fred, Your tools, your rules, of course.. On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, drlegendre . wrote: > > If you want to speed-up the operation, drive the punch through with an > > impact wrench once you've got it properly started. > > On tools that I own, such as chassis punches and screw pullers, I will not > let people use impact wrenches on lead screws. On screw pullers, I fully agree - that's just not how they work! You draw the puller to full tension, then give a few sharp raps on the screw with a heavy, but soft metal (bronze or lead) hammer. If that makes things loose, then tighten the puller again and repeat until it pops free. But what's wrong with using a power tool to run a punch through, once it's properly started - and you're confident that you're not trying to force it through material that's beyond its limit? I'd agree that it not exactly desirable, but for speeding through a few operations, particularly in soft / thin materials, I don't see how it's going to damage anything. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 15 20:11:27 2014 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:11:27 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548F94CF.9060900@pico-systems.com> On 12/15/2014 03:07 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > OK, so somewhat weekly questions. > > Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic of > drum style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What > was this characteristic? > Well, some people mentioned the wavy text. I had a HUGE Honeywell drum printer here that had VERY good alignment. That was 300 LPM. I worked with a couple other units that also had pretty good alignment, and were rated for 600 LPM, but if you were only printing numeric data, it could do over 1000 LPM. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 15 23:04:09 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 21:04:09 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test Message-ID: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> Okay, I've been working with my SCSI tape stuff and I'd like someone to check a .TAP image on a VAX VMS SIMH setup. Less than a meg, but verification would mean that I've got things right (or wrong). Tape image (zipped) linked via Box. --Chuck I've linked 1 file to this email: * sample.zip (345 KB) hosted on Box: https://app.box.com/s/dy51vto78437bjciaaec From mark at markesystems.com Mon Dec 15 16:53:39 2014 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:53:39 -0800 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:10:07 +0000 (WET) > From: Peter Coghlan <...> > Many years after performing this somewhat less than useful task, my advice > is: > don't write your word processor in FORTRAN IV on an IBM S/370. One of my earlier programming projects as a "professional" was to port the WordMARC scientific word processing system to Apollo workstations (before they were acquired by HP). This was all done in Fortran-77, which was reasonably well supported on those systems, and included fairly easy-to-access hooks to get at graphical functions. Because of the software's heritage and fundamental design, though, it still ended up looking like a fixed-font terminal application, although running in sizable windows at least. ~~ Mark Moulding From rrissell at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 18:15:31 2014 From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:15:31 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: <015701d018c0$e0d70600$a2851200$@gmail.com> References: <015701d018c0$e0d70600$a2851200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The hammers pushed from the back of the paper, push in it into a sheet ribbon and then into the rotating type drum. On Dec 15, 2014 6:43 PM, "Dave G4UGM" wrote: > Where I worked the un-even text was referred to as "Dancing Text" ..... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug > > Ingraham > > Sent: 15 December 2014 21:08 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) > > > > OK, so somewhat weekly questions. > > > > Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic > of drum > > style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What > was this > > characteristic? > > > > > > I don't miss the noise of those devices and it seemed like no matter how > > careful you were when changing the ribbon you would smudge your hands. > > > > > > Doug Ingraham > > From eivinde at terraplane.org Tue Dec 16 01:42:33 2014 From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:42:33 +0100 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <20141214153708.GB146047@mooli.org.uk> References: <20141214153708.GB146047@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141216074233.GA25840@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 03:37:08PM +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: > Previously, I used some reasonably powerful "programmers' editor" on > the Amiga, the name of which I forget, I wouldn't happen to be CygnusEd? That's still the editor I measure all others against and I've still not found another editor that's equally good. -- Eivind From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 16 02:10:11 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 00:10:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: missing key on DEC Correspondent Message-ID: When I put my DEC Correspondent in storage, I'm sure it had all its keys. When I pulled it out today, I found that it's missing the key in the far bottom left. Does anyone have a wrecked Correspondent from which that key can be extracted? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 16 02:11:43 2014 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 00:11:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote: > This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches > for classic computer restoration > > I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the > ones for D connectors (and others). > > One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that > is a respected manufacturer of them? Not cheap, but then I can't afford > the cheap ones. > > Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a > handheld hydraulic device that fits on said punches. It is darn > expensive, but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it is just > faster then I am not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal > then I might be. Greenlee punches are known for quality. I have a few and am happy with them. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 16 02:13:18 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:13:18 +0100 Subject: SCSI tape question In-Reply-To: <201412151323.IAA11907@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <548A580D.8040107@sydex.com> <20141212121844.GA54840@mooli.org.uk> <548B1DAC.4030805@sydex.com> <548B219B.4050701@update.uu.se> <201412151323.IAA11907@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <548FE99E.2070107@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-15 14:23, Mouse wrote: >> Two tape marks is just a convention used by some software to indicate >> the logical EOT. It has no special meaning for the hardware. > > Perhaps on some drives (such as 9-tracks). But I did run into one > drive, one of the relatively modern cartridge drives with tapes about > the size of a TK50, which had a relatively elaborate encoding scheme in > which EOT was different from two consecutive tapemarks, but it mapped > between the two in each direction and the drive refused to even try to > read past EOT. In order to recover data that had been written over, > the recommended procedure was to write enough to overwrite the EOT mark > and then power down the drive while it was writing more. (Recommended > by users, not the maker IIRC.) Oh. Yuck... So ANSI tape format would be impossible on such a tape. That is a very broken hardware. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 16 02:18:31 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:18:31 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? In-Reply-To: <4B62E670-4A24-41B4-95CB-12DD0049CA4F@kd7bcy.com> References: <4B62E670-4A24-41B4-95CB-12DD0049CA4F@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: <548FEAD7.6030000@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-15 18:06, John Rollins wrote: > So in function checking the PDP-11 now that the Series/1 is out of the basement and I have room to move the unit around and plug it in, I have discovered that it doesn't appear to transmit data from the console port on the back. I have tried two terminals(WY99) and two different PC's(Windows laptop with hardware serial port and a Mac with a USB adapter) with various software, a half dozen different cables, and every conceivable switch setting on the PDP with nothing to show for it aside from a lot of time spent the last couple of weekends. > > So when I power up, the LED display on the front counts down through the numbers and stops at 4. As near as I can tell, this is something of a good sign. But nothing ever comes up on a connected terminal. Sometimes pressing keys on the terminal results in the RUN light turning off, other times it does nothing. This would seem to indicate that the PDP knows that something is trying to talk to it, but it is not sending data out. > > Short of spending an entire day disassembling half the machine and tracing every wire hoping to find something out of place, does anyone have any ideas on what may be happening here, or what to look for? Well. The first to check is if you have expected levels on the pins of the serial port. At idle it should hover at about -12V, although the RS-232 spec allows for significant variation. But it should be an obvious negative value anyway. Also check that your terminal also asserts such a value. And that if the terminal does it on pin 2, then the PDP-11 should do it on pin 3. (Obivously.) What I am thinking is that the level converters might be blown. Not uncommon in older systems. If so, that is all you need to replace. It's normally a single chip. This also makes sure you are not using broken or wrong cables. (Oh yeah, and ground is on pin 7.) If this don't help, then we need to dig further... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 16 02:25:07 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:25:07 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84 SLU problem? In-Reply-To: <548F3916.5030405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20141215184746.50A9F18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <548F3916.5030405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <548FEC63.90707@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-15 20:40, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/12/2014 18:47, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: John Rollins it doesn't appear to transmit data from the >>> console port on the back. I have tried ... every conceivable switch >>> setting on the PDP with nothing > >> I asssume you've tried setting the baud rate with the switches on the >> CPU card (in case the cable to the back panel is damaged - or, more >> likely, the rotary baud select switch has a bad contact due to >> corrosion over time)? > > The normal setting is all 8 switches in the pack at E83 (beside the > LEDs) off. Switch 1 is to do with the console SLU (see below). 2, 3 > and 4 set the boot device (all off means boot according to the settings > in the EEPROM; all on means power up in ODT providing switch 1 is off). > Switch 5 is the "force dialog mode" switch - on an 11/83, setting 1 > and 5 on is used to "disable customer access to setup", to prevent the > most common cause of the not booting correctly problem. If switch 5 is > on, the CPU won't go into dialog mode. 6, 7, and 8 set the baud rate, > providing the rotary switch on the panel is either disconnected or set > to 7 or set to 15. For 9600 set 6 and 8 on, 7 off; for 1200 set 7 on, 6 > and 8 off. All on is 38400; all off is 300. If switch 5 is on, it will not go into dialog mode, true. But it will still print information out on the console. Starting with the numbers printed during the memory test, and then information about it starting to boot from whatever. Baud rates is, however, a very good tip. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 16 05:41:07 2014 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:41:07 +0000 (WET) Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 15 Dec 2014 21:04:09 -0800" <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01PG6KV8M9OK003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:41:07 +0000, Chuck wrote: > > Okay, I've been working with my SCSI tape stuff and I'd like someone to > check a .TAP image on a VAX VMS SIMH setup. Less than a meg, but > verification would mean that I've got things right (or wrong). > > Tape image (zipped) linked via Box. > > --Chuck > > I've linked 1 file to this email: > * sample.zip (345 KB) hosted on Box: > https://app.box.com/s/dy51vto78437bjciaaec > I fired up an image of VAX/VMS 5.5-2 I had hanging around. I didn't get very far with the tape image though. Which kind of SIMH device is it supposed to be attached as and what do you want done with it? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Dec 16 08:19:14 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:19:14 +0000 Subject: confirm [...] In-Reply-To: <002701d018a8$f3a45570$4be4190a@user8459cef6fa> References: <20141214140945.GA146047@mooli.org.uk> <002701d018a8$f3a45570$4be4190a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20141216141914.GA213796@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:51:39PM -0000, Andrew Burton wrote: [...] > P.S. Not gonna ask what a furkle is, but I will say that is the first time I > have heard that word. It's a Lancashire word I seem to have picked up. It means to search, with the implication that it's harder than it ought to be to find, e.g. due to clutter. Think of trying to find something in a handbag or feeling round the back of the computer to plug something in. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 16 08:29:41 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 06:29:41 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> On 12/15/14 9:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I've been working with my SCSI tape stuff and I'd like someone to check a .TAP image on a VAX VMS SIMH setup. I looked at it with my tools. There are THREE extra bytes at the end of the first record, before the 50 00 00 00. Bob may pad to a short, but I don't think he pads to a long. The images I create don't pad a record at all, what you see is what you get. Looks like VMS Fortran 4.5 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Dec 16 08:30:59 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:30:59 +0000 Subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: References: <548E28C9.2020809@telegraphics.com.au> <20141215121120.GA176178@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20141216143058.GB213796@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 03:58:44PM -0600, Joseph Lenox wrote: > For a partial solution to library management, there's Calibre ( > calibre-ebook.com). It's free. It's also a massive pile of crap that makes iTunes look good. The only good use-case for it is pretty much to use it as an iTunes-alike for sideloading data onto a Kindle. > The poor random access is a pain, and usually why I don't use eBooks for > technical works (or anything where it's helpful to be able to flip around in > the text). MacOS's Preview.app is actually a pretty goof PDF renderer, and will open multiple files side-by-side, but not the same file twice. Apple-[ works in a similar manner to a browser back button, so can be used to return to the table-of-contents, index, or other cross-reference I've followed. Sadly, I don't have anything that will display ePubs since my iPad took a coffee bath, but fortunately I have limited content in that format. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 16 10:28:12 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:28:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: NatSemi QBUS 256KB memory card Message-ID: <20141216162812.8B76118C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there is a National Semiconfuctor 256KB QBUS memory card which has a number of examples floating around for sale (e.g. eBay #370953707487), but which has heretofore been un-identified: the only numbers/names/etc on it are "PWB 551103882" and "PWA 980103882", which is what one usually finds them listed under. Well, it turns out that it's called an "NS23M", and a manual and print set for it, previously un-available online, are now available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/NS23M.pdf Can people who maintain repositories (e.g. BitSavers) please include this in their sites? Sorry about the size of the file; the original scans were 300 dpi, which in retrospect was probably a bit more than needed, but rather than throw away resolution, I've left them in like that; repository maintainers may wish to reduce the page images in resolution somewhat, to make the file a bit smaller. And a very big 'Thank You' to Mr. Steve Burgess, who was nice enough to make scans of a manual in his possession, and send them to me. If anyone finds this manual useful, please make a small donation to a local animal charity! Noel From chd at chdickman.com Tue Dec 16 11:03:13 2014 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 12:03:13 -0500 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use Greenlee punches on our assembly floor at work. When I worked out there one summer during a strike I punched a lot of holes. Usually for small (1/2, 3/4, 1in conduit) stuff I used the bolt and bearing. I didn't use the hydraulic accessory until it was 3in or 4in. Sometimes I had to use multiple punches to get a hole big enough for the larger bolts. Step drill to get a rough hole for the smaller punch bolt and then use a punch big enough for the next bolt. They usually went through easily as long as the punch was sharp. Its the initial cut that is hardest to get once the point is through it just slices easily. Chuck Engineer and one time electrical panel builder/strike breaker On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:11 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Dec 2014, tony duell wrote: > > This is rather off-topic, although I will be using said chassis punches >> for classic computer restoration >> >> I am thinking of buying some chassis punches, in particular some of the >> ones for D connectors (and others). >> >> One brand I can easily get in the UK is Greenlee. Am I right that that is >> a respected manufacturer of them? Not cheap, but then I can't afford the >> cheap ones. >> >> Also Greenlee do an accesory called the Quick-Draw or something, a >> handheld hydraulic device that fits on said punches. It is darn expensive, >> but I want to know what advantages it gives. If it is just faster then I am >> not interested. If it means I can cut thicker metal then I might be. >> > > Greenlee punches are known for quality. I have a few and am happy with > them. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 16 11:39:47 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:39:47 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> On 12/16/2014 06:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/15/14 9:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, I've been working with my SCSI tape stuff and I'd like someone >> to check a .TAP image on a VAX VMS SIMH setup. > > I looked at it with my tools. There are THREE extra bytes at the end of > the first record, before the 50 00 00 00. > Bob may pad to a short, but I don't think he pads to a long. The images > I create don't pad a record at all, what > you see is what you get. > > Looks like VMS Fortran 4.5 http://simh.trailing-edge.com/docs/simh_magtape.pdf is the document that I'm using for this. I clearly have some extra padding in the records--that's a bug in my own padding routine. The document does say that records will be padded to an even byte boundary--is this incorrect? If I were to append a metadata record at the end of the image, would this hurt anyone? Perhaps preceded by 4 tapemarks? What I'd like to do is standardize the format in which I'm storing images. In particular, metadata as part of the image is important. SIMH doesn't seem to have any way to record corrected errors or even un-corrected errors. Very strange; one wonders why. Yes, it's a FORTRAN 4.5 tape--just one that I have lying around. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 16 11:58:59 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:58:59 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> On 12/16/14 9:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/16/2014 06:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/15/14 9:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Okay, I've been working with my SCSI tape stuff and I'd like someone >>> to check a .TAP image on a VAX VMS SIMH setup. >> >> I looked at it with my tools. There are THREE extra bytes at the end of >> the first record, before the 50 00 00 00. >> Bob may pad to a short, but I don't think he pads to a long. The images >> I create don't pad a record at all, what >> you see is what you get. >> >> Looks like VMS Fortran 4.5 > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/docs/simh_magtape.pdf is the document that I'm using for this. I clearly have some extra padding in the records--that's a bug in my own padding routine. > > The document does say that records will be padded to an even byte boundary--is this incorrect? No, if that's the format you want to support. I personally think it is incorrect since that wasn't what was written on the tape. > > If I were to append a metadata record at the end of the image, would this hurt anyone? Perhaps preceded by 4 tapemarks? > He added an end of media tag. I'd put it after that and wrap your record in block marks with an obvious ID string at the front There should also be a magic number and a byte offset and at the very end of that last record so that you can lseek -8*3 bytes from the end, find out the metadata is there and lseek to the start of it. John Bordynuik defined bad block information in the tape images he created. Too bad it was never documented. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 16 12:39:23 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 10:39:23 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54907C5B.6070906@sydex.com> On 12/16/2014 09:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > John Bordynuik defined bad block information in the tape images he > created. Too bad it was never documented. I'd probably add a field to the header for each record for a CRC for the record data. Should a file become corrupted, I'd think that people would want to know. --Chuck From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 16 13:13:02 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 19:13:02 +0000 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D208D8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Al Kossow Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 9:59 AM > On 12/16/14 9:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/16/2014 06:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 12/15/14 9:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Okay, I've been working with my SCSI tape stuff and I'd like someone >>>> to check a .TAP image on a VAX VMS SIMH setup. >>> I looked at it with my tools. There are THREE extra bytes at the end of >>> the first record, before the 50 00 00 00. >>> Bob may pad to a short, but I don't think he pads to a long. The images >>> I create don't pad a record at all, what you see is what you get. >> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/docs/simh_magtape.pdf is the document >> that I'm using for this. I clearly have some extra padding in the >> records--that's a bug in my own padding routine. >> The document does say that records will be padded to an even byte >> boundary--is this incorrect? > No, if that's the format you want to support. I personally think it is > incorrect since that wasn't what was written on the tape. It's a little more complex than that. Bob was using PDP-11 tape drives as his model, and they *do* insert an extra null(?) byte at the end of odd- length records. I think, but have not verified since my KS systems are not running right now, that the RH11 on the KS's Unibus may do the same thing, but for now that's just a guess. Ken and Mark's tape format does not add a padding byte for KL simulation by default, but distinguishes several different formats, including one that is the same as Bob's. My utilities which I wrote for TOPS-20 interactively inquire whether odd length records should be padded or not, depending on which emulator I'm aiming at. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 16 13:28:09 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:28:09 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <54907C5B.6070906@sydex.com> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> <54907C5B.6070906@sydex.com> Message-ID: <549087C9.7010208@sydex.com> On 12/16/2014 10:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/16/2014 09:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> John Bordynuik defined bad block information in the tape images he >> created. Too bad it was never documented. > > I'd probably add a field to the header for each record for a CRC for the > record data. Should a file become corrupted, I'd think that people > would want to know. The optional 1-byte padding, as I understand things, is not included in the data record byte count. So it's pretty easy to determine if the record format is padded or not, since you've still got an odd byte count--you need only look at the trailing information--either the trailing byte count field will be offset by one byte or it won't. But, in general, I agree with the padding issue--there isn't any good reason to pad a record, but for being SIMH compatible. I'll flesh out the diagnostic error stuff a bit more. Another thing that doesn't appear to be in the SIMH spec is whether or not the EOT marker occurred during the writing of the last record. That might be useful to some. Indeed, many systems will allow writing of an extra record or two beyond the EOT marker and EOM. Additionally there's no way to indicate the presence of extra BOT markers on a tape. (One technique used in the old manual-load drives was to record a set, then, manually add a BOT strip for another data set. One could space forward to the subsequent BOTs simply by hitting the "LOAD" button on the drive.) Very handy for keeping several deadstart systems on a single tape; but that's probably considered to be an aberration these days. So after the FFFFFFFF EOM record, I propose placing an extra record whose content is entirely ASCII. The first 8 characters will be "TAPEINFO". Lines terminated by an LF. If a line starts with a colon, it signifies a keyword field, which is terminated by a colon, followed by the value of that field, which may extend for as many lines as needed, provided that none begins with with a colon. Some possible keywords might be, but are not restricted to: :IMAGE CREATED BY: :IMAGE DATE: :LABEL DESCRIPTION: :DENSITY: :TRACKS: :READ DEVICE: :SYSTEM: ...and so forth... The record itself will be in SIMH format--i.e, with 32-bit header and trailer record length. That should retain SIMH compatibility. What do ye think? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 16 13:35:18 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:35:18 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VMS quick test In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D208D8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <548FBD49.3080703@sydex.com> <549041D5.9040602@bitsavers.org> <54906E63.1010109@sydex.com> <549072E3.4010009@bitsavers.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D208D8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <54908976.7060101@sydex.com> On 12/16/2014 11:13 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > It's a little more complex than that. Bob was using PDP-11 tape drives as > his model, and they *do* insert an extra null(?) byte at the end of odd- > length records. I think, but have not verified since my KS systems are > not running right now, that the RH11 on the KS's Unibus may do the same > thing, but for now that's just a guess. ..and, as a counter-example, there is at least one system/vendor where tapes are usually written in multiples of 3 8-bit bytes (ANSI labels being the exception). CDC 6000, for example--6 bit characters and 12-bit PPU words translate 2 PPU words/4 6-bit characters) to three 9-track frames, so odd-byte length records are not unusual. So perhaps the best way to go is not to pad anything. --Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 16 14:11:16 2014 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:11:16 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> , <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <549091E4.6040000@ntlworld.com> On 15/12/14 20:55, tony duell wrote: > Given that the spec of the plain Greenlee punch I am looking at > (without any mention of the hydraulic add-on) exceeds what I want to > do with it, I am guessing I can save the money here. -tony Is there some reason not to buy the punches first and then only buy the hydraulic add-on if it turns out you need it? The only difference would be paying two lots of postage wouldn't it? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From scaron at umich.edu Tue Dec 16 14:23:08 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:23:08 -0500 Subject: Favourite text based word processing software In-Reply-To: <07cb01d017da$03f6f510$0be4df30$@gmail.com> References: <01PG475Z89QE003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> <548DECFD.6080804@sydex.com> <07cb01d017da$03f6f510$0be4df30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think that's just the engineering school experience in general. It may no longer involve the 6800 or FORTRAN but, believe me, instructors never fail to find a way to confound undergrads with the tools available to them, LOL. Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > > Guzis > > Sent: 14 December 2014 20:03 > > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > > Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Favourite text based word processing software > > > > On 12/14/2014 09:10 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > > Many years after performing this somewhat less than useful task, my > > advice is: > > > don't write your word processor in FORTRAN IV on an IBM S/370. > > > > Having written X.25 Networking Software in Fortran-77 on an IBM 370 (among > other systems) because my employer wanted it to be portable I think a line > mode editor in Fortran might be fun. > > On the other hand I think your experience with Fortran programming at > College is typical of that many received. I remember the classes when I was > an under graduate at Newcastle upon Type poly. Too many students and > inexperienced staff meant many never really learned Fortran properly. > Fortunately I had already learnt Fortran II at school when was 17 , and > Fortran 77 was a simple upgrade..... > > Dave > > > > On the other hand, WPs can be written quite successfully in BASIC running > on > > a 3.5MHz 8085, given the necessary "hooks" (e.g. direct video displays). > > Pretty much full-featured too, with font changes and all of the usual > stuff. > > > > --Chuck > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 16 14:49:28 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:49:28 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <549091E4.6040000@ntlworld.com> References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> , <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> , <549091E4.6040000@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > Given that the spec of the plain Greenlee punch I am looking at > > (without any mention of the hydraulic add-on) exceeds what I want to > > do with it, I am guessing I can save the money here. -tony > Is there some reason not to buy the punches first and then only buy the > hydraulic add-on if it turns out you need it? None at all, and this is what I probably will do. As I mentioned elsewhere the spec of the basic punch (which I assume applies when it is used with the drawbolt/nut tightened with a spanner) exceeds what I want to do with it so I am guessing IO don't need the hydraulic driver > The only difference would be paying two lots of postage wouldn't it? Not even that. I think I can collect it from a trade counter in London, so it's just a matter of a second trip. However I shall wait until the new year, Around now orders tend to get misplaced, etc... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 16 15:34:13 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 13:34:13 -0800 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> , <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> , <549091E4.6040000@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5490A555.7040700@sydex.com> On 12/16/2014 12:49 PM, tony duell wrote: Do investigate Pexto hand and arbor punches. These do not require a pilot hole and, in, at least in the case of aluminum, have an interesting property. I was chatting with the guy who ran our model shop, when one of the mechanical engineers came in holding a chassis plate that was already pre-punched. Don asked what he needed and Mario said "I need this hole to be smaller by about 125 thousandths." So how does one make a negative hole? I was really interested. Don went over to the Pexto arbor punch and select a die that corresponded to the size of the existing hole. He grabbed a sheet of scrap, punched the hole out, then took the resulting slug, inserted it into the appropriate place in the chassis plate and pressed it into place on an arbor press. He then took it over to the drill press, marked and drilled a new hole right in the center of the slug. Since the screws being used were coarse thread sheet metal screws, I wondered if that could possibly hold a screw. He stated that it would hold at least as well as the rest of the holes in the plate. It did. The trick was apparently that the slugs that come out of the arbor punch come out a bit concave. Pressing them into place causes the diameter of the slug to expand slightly, locking it in place. --Chuck From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 16:39:07 2014 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:39:07 -0600 Subject: "Premium" ebooks, anyone? - was Re: OT: Physical Book Prices In-Reply-To: <20141216143058.GB213796@mooli.org.uk> References: <548E28C9.2020809@telegraphics.com.au> <20141215121120.GA176178@mooli.org.uk> <20141216143058.GB213796@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 03:58:44PM -0600, Joseph Lenox wrote: > > For a partial solution to library management, there's Calibre ( > > calibre-ebook.com). It's free. > > It's also a massive pile of crap that makes iTunes look good. The only > good > use-case for it is pretty much to use it as an iTunes-alike for sideloading > data onto a Kindle. > > I thought it worked just fine for the purpose of permitting a searchable "library" of eBooks in multiple formats. The conversion tools are usable and the program itself is pretty unobtrusive. The eBook viewer packaged with it is nothing to write home about, but it works. > > The poor random access is a pain, and usually why I don't use eBooks for > > technical works (or anything where it's helpful to be able to flip > around in > > the text). > > MacOS's Preview.app is actually a pretty goof PDF renderer, and will open > multiple files side-by-side, but not the same file twice. Apple-[ works in > a > similar manner to a browser back button, so can be used to return to the > table-of-contents, index, or other cross-reference I've followed. Sadly, I > don't have anything that will display ePubs since my iPad took a coffee > bath, > but fortunately I have limited content in that format. > > ePubs are pretty easy to read as a format, given that they're just a ZIP archive of HTML files. I don't have any Apple products myself, though. I do know that B&N's Nook smartphone application will happily read most ePub-format titles, as will Moon Reader (which reads pretty much anything, but may be Android-only). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 16 23:30:25 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:30:25 +0000 Subject: OT : Chassis punches In-Reply-To: <5490A555.7040700@sydex.com> References: , , <039b01d018a2$a87ac0d0$f9704270$@gmail.com> , <03d901d018a7$eace2d50$c06a87f0$@gmail.com> , <549091E4.6040000@ntlworld.com> , <5490A555.7040700@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Do investigate Pexto hand and arbor punches. These do not require a > pilot hole and, in, at least in the case of aluminum, have an > interesting property. I don't, as yet' have an abour press, although it is another luxury I am considering. But one advantage of the bolt-up type (Greenlee, Qmax) is that you can put a hole anywhere, in any size bit of metal, it doesn't have to fit in the press. [Filling a hole] >The trick was apparently that the slugs that come out of the arbor punch > come out a bit concave. Pressing them into place causes the diameter of > the slug to expand slightly, locking it in place. I suspect that's true of Qmax cutters too in that their slugs are dished when they come out and are a tight fit in the die. Not that I have ever tried it (and of course those slugs have a central hole) -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 23:55:58 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:55:58 -0800 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? Message-ID: <54911AEE.8020600@gmail.com> Hi all -- Subject line covers the basics; I have a nice looking Xylogics 472 but someone has stolen the EPROM from it; anyone a) Know what size EPROM goes in this socket (24-pin) and/or b) Have an image of its contents So that I might replace it? Thanks as always, Josh From simski at dds.nl Wed Dec 17 06:05:48 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:05:48 +0100 Subject: Recaping a Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: <5485D478.8070300@dds.nl> Message-ID: <5491719C.2060500@dds.nl> than one of those drives was also broken electronically. I have one working version here. It could be revisions. I remeber that the portable had a green label and the classic a red one. or the other way round. On 08-12-14 20:43, drlegendre . wrote: > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > >> but do change the caps, and you can substitute the platter of a mac >> classic 40mb drive and reuse the electronics of the drive in the portable. > > > FYI, this didn't work for me, even though I did apparently have the > 'correct' 40MB Connor HD. The electronics wouldn't transplant, or something > to that effect. I ended up having to make a cable for it, which was a > little messy but did work just fine. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Wed Dec 17 05:09:23 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:09:23 +0100 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair In-Reply-To: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> Message-ID: <54916463.4050200@dds.nl> Hey all, Good news! I've located the problems with the machine and already have fixed the mechanical part. The elctrical problem is bad contacts in the edge connectors (a mere 850 pins...) and I got my first calculating results on paper in the form of the square root of 6. :-) So ignore my earlier post on the scope probe path updates of course on the blog. On 14-12-14 18:25, Simon Claessen wrote: > hello all, > > I'm in the process of repairing our 101 but i hit a solid wall finding > out whats wrong with it. are there people with a working copy who could > do some measurements on their copy? > > Unfortunately i have no schematic of the electronics, only the mechanics > and PSU. > > I have made a crappy video of the scope trace of the delay line input > and i'm very interested in a video of a working machine's delay line. :-) > > The video is here: http://youtu.be/llpwjGeldt0 > > and a partially repairlog is here: > https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101 > > als scematics are welcome as well. :-) -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 17 10:10:48 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:10:48 +0100 Subject: Esprit Sytems Inc. Opus 220 Terminal SM needed.. Message-ID: <20141217161048.GA26615@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi guys, sometimes in the past I've reapired some OPUS 220 Terminals from Esprit Systems Inc, Melville NY for an other company. (I still have one left over that still works and I want to keep it for my 11/83) >From that time I still have new 3 Flyback Transformers here, and now I have to repair another Terminal (some Siemens Device) where the original FBT is sold out everywhere. I'm now searching for the display schematic part with the FBT from the Opus 220 Terminal to look if I could transplant one from the new FBTs to the Siemens Monitor. Sure, I could do some reverse engeneering in the Opus Terminal but hopefully one has what I need already? Thanks in advance, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 17 13:44:41 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:44:41 +0100 Subject: VT220? Re: Esprit Sytems Inc. Opus 220 Terminal SM needed.. In-Reply-To: <20141217161048.GA26615@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141217161048.GA26615@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141217194441.GE26615@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Hi guys, [..] there is a website (http://www.com-com.co.uk/hp/partlist/0001809.ihtml) taht lists the Totoku 1-458-058-03 FBT as Part for the VT220. I've checked the technical Manual from Manx and it doesn't seem that this could be the original part. The Totoku 1-458-058-03 is for PCB Mount and the FBT in the VT220 seems to be mounted to the chassis and connected to the PCB with wires. Next thing is, the primary at least seems not to be exactly the same. Is there some aditional Information available about replacement of an VT220 FBT with the Totoku 1-458-058-03 (TMF-2500B)? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 17 09:35:03 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:35:03 -0800 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? In-Reply-To: <54911AEE.8020600@gmail.com> References: <54911AEE.8020600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5491A2A7.8080502@bitsavers.org> On 12/16/14 9:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Subject line covers the basics; I have a nice looking Xylogics 472 but someone has stolen the EPROM from it; anyone > > a) Know what size EPROM goes in this socket (24-pin) > and/or > b) Have an image of its contents > > So that I might replace it? > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > I should have one, somewhere.. Bear or Earl probably have one as well. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Dec 17 10:01:28 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:01:28 -0800 Subject: Wooden case for DBit power and signal adapters - and a drive too In-Reply-To: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> References: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <974F1E0C-E0C7-4B1A-8215-9F8B12BE2534@nf6x.net> > On Dec 11, 2014, at 07:04 , David Schmidt wrote: > > Finally feeling guilty enough about stringing a bunch of expensive electronic bits out on my bench whenever time came to use an 8" disk drive, I mounted my DBit-sourced parts and power supply into a case. And the power+smarts sled slides in and out and has little feet on the bottom so it can be re-used with other loose 8" drives too. I like your drive enclosure. It's elegant and practical. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bear at typewritten.org Wed Dec 17 13:20:42 2014 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 11:20:42 -0800 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? In-Reply-To: <5491A2A7.8080502@bitsavers.org> References: <54911AEE.8020600@gmail.com> <5491A2A7.8080502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <280EE77E-C006-4403-92D4-80EE5967307C@typewritten.org> On Dec 17, 2014, at 7:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I should have one, somewhere.. Bear or Earl probably have one as well. Apparently I don't have an XY472, or at least one doesn't show in inventory. I was totally ready to jump in and save the day, too! ok bear. -- until further notice From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Dec 17 14:33:18 2014 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:33:18 +0000 (WET) Subject: VT220? Re: Esprit Sytems Inc. Opus 220 Terminal SM needed.. In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:44:41 +0100" <20141217194441.GE26615@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20141217161048.GA26615@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <01PG8GNHZSRS003POJ@beyondthepale.ie> > >there is a website (http://www.com-com.co.uk/hp/partlist/0001809.ihtml) >taht lists the Totoku 1-458-058-03 FBT as Part for the VT220. I've checked >the technical Manual from Manx and it doesn't seem that this could be the >original part. >The Totoku 1-458-058-03 is for PCB Mount and the FBT in the VT220 seems to >be mounted to the chassis and connected to the PCB with wires. >Next thing is, the primary at least seems not to be exactly the same. > >Is there some aditional Information available about replacement of an >VT220 FBT with the Totoku 1-458-058-03 (TMF-2500B)? > I have two VT220s. One of them has a PCB mounted flyback transformer, the other one has it on the chassis connected via wires. Mine have these part numbers: 16-26299-01 (probably the PCB mounting one) 16-21181-01 Apart from the mounting, they look very similar. I examined the two PCBs and I couldn't find any component differences but I could have missed something. One of mine has failed, most likely the transformer is the problem. I think it is the PCB mounted one but it was a while ago and I forget the details now. I went looking for a replacement but I didn't manage to find one at the time. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 17 14:54:13 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:54:13 -0500 Subject: Goodnight, DDJ Message-ID: <5491ED75.3010304@snarc.net> Dr. Dobbs went online-only a long time ago, but now it's being "sunsetted". http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/farewell-dr-dobbs/240169421 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 21:30:42 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:30:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keytronics foam pads revisited Message-ID: I've fixed a couple of keyboards using hobby shop track bed foam, but have not been very happy with the "feel". That foam is considerably less resilient than the material Keytronics used. After trying a number of alternate materials, I have found something that is almost identical to the original. Take a look at eBay #171549720453 for an example. It's 5mm thick with an adhesive backing, sold for shoe inserts. I stuck 0.075" plastic sheet to the backing, then turned it over and used spray adhesive for the aluminized mylar. Worked like a charm. Just finished resurrecting a N* Advantage and the typing feel is (in my opinion) far better than the last unit I did with track-bed foam (Corvus Concept). Steve -- From hachti at hachti.de Thu Dec 18 02:43:35 2014 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 09:43:35 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: <548F94CF.9060900@pico-systems.com> References: <548F94CF.9060900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <549293B7.6080200@hachti.de> > Well, some people mentioned the wavy text. I had a HUGE Honeywell drum > printer here that had VERY good alignment. That was 300 LPM. I have a "small" data products drum printer (2230) which makes quite straight lines at 300 lines per minute. The timing can be adjusted.. Regards Philipp :-) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 18 10:02:11 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 11:02:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34A cache Message-ID: <20141218160211.93F9718C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, all, I'm looking for any/alldocumentation for the PDP-11/34A cache, the KK11-A. (And no, it's not in the 11/34A print set!) At least one document does exist, the KK11-A Cache Memory Technical Manual (EK-KK11A-TM-001); this page references it: http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/cache-info.html but I can't find it online (well, someone's Flickr site has an image of one page of it, but that's all). The mention there of "cut the 'cache hit line' on the DD11-PK backplane" on that web page (above) has me concerned! But in general I'd like to know more about this board. Noel From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 18 10:24:28 2014 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:24:28 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <20141218160211.93F9718C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141218160211.93F9718C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <730a94baa34f302b62661475ff8748de.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >From the KK11-A user manual : "Check for continuity between backplane connection C01E1 and B02A1. This is the cache hit line; if not present, a jumper (30 gauge wire, DIGITAL P/N 91-05740) should be installed. Then check for continuity." I'll scan the manual tomorrow at the office (not that thick at all) and send a link where to find it. Ed > Hi, all, I'm looking for any/alldocumentation for the PDP-11/34A cache, > the > KK11-A. (And no, it's not in the 11/34A print set!) > > At least one document does exist, the KK11-A Cache Memory Technical Manual > (EK-KK11A-TM-001); this page references it: > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/cache-info.html > > but I can't find it online (well, someone's Flickr site has an image of > one > page of it, but that's all). > > The mention there of "cut the 'cache hit line' on the DD11-PK backplane" > on > that web page (above) has me concerned! But in general I'd like to know > more > about this board. > > Noel > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 18 16:03:52 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 14:03:52 -0800 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54934F48.9080108@bitsavers.org> On 12/18/14 1:23 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Dec 18, 2014, at 12:37 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: > >> I'll try to check tonight when I get home... spreadsheet says I have 8 >> Xylogics SMD controllers... have to see if any is an XY472. > > The XY472 is a Pertec-interface 1/2" tape controller. Not SMD. > > ok > bear. > > I have that and a XY450 dumped From bear at typewritten.org Thu Dec 18 15:23:09 2014 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 13:23:09 -0800 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2014, at 12:37 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: > I'll try to check tonight when I get home... spreadsheet says I have 8 > Xylogics SMD controllers... have to see if any is an XY472. The XY472 is a Pertec-interface 1/2" tape controller. Not SMD. ok bear. -- until further notice From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 18 14:15:31 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 12:15:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <20141218160211.93F9718C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141218160211.93F9718C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141218121531.204ef6b0@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 11:02:11 -0500 (EST) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > Hi, all, I'm looking for any/alldocumentation for the PDP-11/34A > cache, the KK11-A. (And no, it's not in the 11/34A print set!) > > At least one document does exist, the KK11-A Cache Memory Technical > Manual (EK-KK11A-TM-001); this page references it: > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/cache-info.html > > but I can't find it online (well, someone's Flickr site has an image > of one page of it, but that's all). > > The mention there of "cut the 'cache hit line' on the DD11-PK > backplane" on that web page (above) has me concerned! But in general > I'd like to know more about this board. I put a copy of the PDP-11/34 Cache manual - KK11-A.pdf on my website. You can get to it by anonymous FTP from a browser: ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp1134 And download the manual If your browser doesn't support FTP, use regular FTP as follows: ftp bickleywest.com Name: anonymous Password: your email address cd pdp1134 get KK11-A.pdf bye Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From earl at baugh.org Thu Dec 18 14:37:11 2014 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 15:37:11 -0500 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? Message-ID: > > On Dec 17, 2014, at 7:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I should have one, somewhere.. Bear or Earl probably have one as well. > > Apparently I don't have an XY472, or at least one doesn't show in > inventory. I was totally ready to jump in and save the day, too! > > ok > bear. I'll try to check tonight when I get home... spreadsheet says I have 8 Xylogics SMD controllers... have to see if any is an XY472. Earl the Squirrel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 18 15:04:49 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:04:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34A cache Message-ID: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lyle Bickley > If your browser doesn't support FTP, use regular FTP as follows: > ftp bickleywest.com Err: ana-3>ftp bickleywest.com ftp: bickleywest.com: Temporary failure in name resolution ftp> exit ana-3>host bickleywest.com ;; connection timed out; trying next origin Host bickleywest.com not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) ana-3> Tried from another host, a long way away, using a different DNS resolver, got the same result - could not resolve name. (Sorry about the broadcast reply, all - but notice his email address... :-) Noel From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 18 16:11:36 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 22:11:36 -0000 Subject: Goodnight, DDJ References: <5491ED75.3010304@snarc.net> Message-ID: <003901d01b13$ab7710e0$7011120a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 8:54 PM Subject: Goodnight, DDJ > Dr. Dobbs went online-only a long time ago, but now it's being "sunsetted". > > http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/farewell-dr-dobbs/240169421 I just tried that link with Firefox 3 and got this error (not seen this before): "An error occurred during a connection to ng.techweb.com. Cannot communicate securely with peer: no common encryption algorithm(s). (Error code: ssl_error_no_cypher_overlap)" I tried a second time (just after writing my original reply, above) and all worked fine. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 18 19:32:07 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:32:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> ftp bickleywest.com >> [various people get DNS failures] > The problem was with my ISP. They had a denial of service attack on > their DNS [...] Ew. Glad they did manage to pallate it. But now.... [Sparkle] 194> ftp bickleywest.com:/pdp1134/KK11-A.pdf Connected to bickleywest.com. 220 bickleywest.com FTP server (Version wu-2.6.2(1) Thu Jun 23 13:09:59 IDT 2005) ready. 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password. 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. Remote system type is UNIX. Using binary mode to transfer files. 200 Type set to I. 550 Permission denied on server. You are restricted to your account. 221-You have transferred 0 bytes in 0 files. 221-Total traffic for this session was 462 bytes in 0 transfers. 221-Thank you for using the FTP service on bickleywest.com. 221 Goodbye. [Sparkle] 195> /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 18 19:09:14 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:09:14 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:04:49 -0500 (EST) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > > From: Lyle Bickley > > > If your browser doesn't support FTP, use regular FTP as follows: > > ftp bickleywest.com > > Err: > > ana-3>ftp bickleywest.com > ftp: bickleywest.com: Temporary failure in name resolution > ftp> exit > ana-3>host bickleywest.com > ;; connection timed out; trying next origin > Host bickleywest.com not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) > ana-3> > > Tried from another host, a long way away, using a different DNS > resolver, got the same result - could not resolve name. > > (Sorry about the broadcast reply, all - but notice his email > address... :-) The problem was with my ISP. They had a denial of service attack on their DNS which they were ultimately able to mitigate (took them about 1.5 hrs.). Should be OK now... Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 18 20:40:33 2014 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 18:40:33 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54939021.5060309@jwsss.com> On 12/18/2014 5:32 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> ftp bickleywest.com >>> [various people get DNS failures] >> The problem was with my ISP. They had a denial of service attack on >> their DNS [...] > Ew. Glad they did manage to pallate it. > > But now.... > > [Sparkle] 194> ftp bickleywest.com:/pdp1134/KK11-A.pdf > Connected to bickleywest.com. > 220 bickleywest.com FTP server (Version wu-2.6.2(1) Thu Jun 23 13:09:59 > IDT 2005) ready. > 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password. > 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. > Remote system type is UNIX. > Using binary mode to transfer files. > 200 Type set to I. > 550 Permission denied on server. You are restricted to your account. > 221-You have transferred 0 bytes in 0 files. > 221-Total traffic for this session was 462 bytes in 0 transfers. > 221-Thank you for using the FTP service on bickleywest.com. > 221 Goodbye. > [Sparkle] 195> > > I'm able to click it on a windows xp / thunderbird, and it comes up in a file browser windows. I just copy it from that window to a file, and done. I didn't go thru a command line client, but there are always a multitude of proxy / port (firewall) / passive issues with FTP that can occur. Many of the tools seem to try all the options and find one that works. BTW when I have to, I use filezilla to get to most sites. I almost never mess with command line FTP if I can avoid it. Jim From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 18 23:19:46 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 21:19:46 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20141218211946.2cdd2097@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:32:07 -0500 (EST) Mouse wrote: > >>> ftp bickleywest.com > >> [various people get DNS failures] > > The problem was with my ISP. They had a denial of service attack on > > their DNS [...] > > Ew. Glad they did manage to pallate it. > > But now.... > > [Sparkle] 194> ftp bickleywest.com:/pdp1134/KK11-A.pdf > Connected to bickleywest.com. > 220 bickleywest.com FTP server (Version wu-2.6.2(1) Thu Jun 23 > 13:09:59 IDT 2005) ready. > 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password. > 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. > Remote system type is UNIX. > Using binary mode to transfer files. > 200 Type set to I. > 550 Permission denied on server. You are restricted to your account. > 221-You have transferred 0 bytes in 0 files. > 221-Total traffic for this session was 462 bytes in 0 transfers. > 221-Thank you for using the FTP service on bickleywest.com. > 221 Goodbye. Please try it as I suggested (I tried it on multiple computers and it worked OK every time using multiple browsers and standard FTP): Use a browser: Chrome, Firefox and Opera are known to work. Microsoft IE may not as some versions do NOT support FTP: ftp://bickleywest.com/PDP1134 Click on file to download, save link as... If for some reason your browser doesn't work, USE FTP EXACTLY AS FOLLOWS: ftp bickleywest.com Name: anonymous Password: your email address cd pdp1134 get KK11-A.pdf bye Regards, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 19 01:07:27 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 23:07:27 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 Message-ID: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> Okay, I think I've gotten the SIMH image thing straightened out--and I've added a descriptive record after the EOM marker in the image. Just like a regular tape block; i.e. 32-bit little-endian length before and after the description. To retrieve, just to to the end of the file, read the last 4 bytes as a record length and then back up and read that much. Same contents, FORTRAN 4.5; if anyone is interested, I have what appears to be the 4.6 tape as well. Attached file link follows. I've linked 1 file to this email: * SAMPLE1.ZIP (345 KB) hosted on Box: https://app.box.com/s/hjamwz80ettlmr1kjsx8 As always, thanks much. --Chuck From towtechsteve at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 15:05:10 2014 From: towtechsteve at gmail.com (Steve Swindell) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:05:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Servers for sale In-Reply-To: <27663278.1385.1418936420754.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> Message-ID: <11835172.1423.1418936672783.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> ? Make offer if interested D Dell - ? Description -PowerEdge 2850 Server ? Qty : (2) ? Dell - ? Description - PowerEdge 1950 Server ? Qty : (1) ? Dell - ? Description - PowerEdge 850 Server ? Qty : (3) T.O.W.E.R. Surplus Steve Swindell (412) 657-2800 [AIM: (Steve Swindell) towersurplus at gmail.com] From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 01:53:22 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 00:53:22 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <20141218211946.2cdd2097@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141218211946.2cdd2097@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 10:19 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Please try it as I suggested (I tried it on multiple computers and it > worked OK every time using multiple browsers and standard FTP): > > Use a browser: Chrome, Firefox and Opera are known to work. > Microsoft IE may not as some versions do NOT support FTP: > > ftp://bickleywest.com/PDP1134 > Click on file to download, save link as... Needs to be lower case. From your original email: ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp1134 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 19 02:03:02 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 09:03:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141218211946.2cdd2097@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <20141219080302.GB26478@Update.UU.SE> If anyone still has problems, get it here: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/KK11-A.pdf On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 12:53:22AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 10:19 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Please try it as I suggested (I tried it on multiple computers and it > > worked OK every time using multiple browsers and standard FTP): > > > > Use a browser: Chrome, Firefox and Opera are known to work. > > Microsoft IE may not as some versions do NOT support FTP: > > > > ftp://bickleywest.com/PDP1134 > > Click on file to download, save link as... > > Needs to be lower case. From your original email: > ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp1134 From useddec at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 03:24:42 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 03:24:42 -0600 Subject: OT? tubes of chips Message-ID: I have the following tubes (multiples of each). Looking for offers, shipping from 61853. Please contact me off list. There may be a few typos in here. I also have a variety of Z80 series chips and maybe some Z8. Thanks, Paul MCM 4116AC25 MCM 41162N MCM 511001AP80 74F373 D2127A10H D2137 SN74S1898N MK4104J-N AM29C116DC UM6116-2 HM 4716A-3 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 19 06:27:16 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 07:27:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34A cache Message-ID: <20141219122716.D4A4218C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lyle Bickley > I put a copy of the PDP-11/34 Cache manual - KK11-A.pdf on my website. Hi, got it - thanks for making this available; perhaps not the most important document out there, but for those with the hardware, fairly crucial! And sorry about the false alarm; it did indeed work fine a couple of hours later, once the DNS attack abated. Blasted crackers - they all need to be given a course of the bastinado. And to think that some of these half-wits think they are 'hackers'.... (blood boils). Noel From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Dec 19 06:43:43 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 06:43:43 -0600 Subject: Servers for sale In-Reply-To: <11835172.1423.1418936672783.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> References: <27663278.1385.1418936420754.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> <11835172.1423.1418936672783.JavaMail.steve@LeRoY> Message-ID: <20141219124343.GA548@lonesome.com> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 04:05:10PM -0500, Steve Swindell wrote: > ? Description -PowerEdge 2850 Server Without additional description of CPUs, RAM, and hard drives (and, in the case of the x950s, whether I/II/III), you'll probably find it hard to get offers :-) mcl From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 19 08:58:45 2014 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 09:58:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34A cache In-Reply-To: <20141218211946.2cdd2097@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20141218211946.2cdd2097@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <201412191458.JAA05793@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [Sparkle] 194> ftp bickleywest.com:/pdp1134/KK11-A.pdf [...] >> 550 Permission denied on server. You are restricted to your account. > Please try it as I suggested (I tried it on multiple computers and it > worked OK every time using multiple browsers and standard FTP): > Use a browser: If your FTP server doesn't work except when the client is embedded in a Web browser, something is seriously broken and it is not supporting standard FTP. > If for some reason your browser doesn't work, When I want to use the Web (which is relatively rare), I use a Web browser. When I want to FTP, I use an FTP client. I do not confuse the two. I tried it anyway. I get that it is "Unable to access document". Snooping the traffic reveals that it actually has much the same problem I unwittingly had - and, on checking, I find it is not 1738-compliant, so I am right to distrust FTP clients glued onto the side of Web browsers. > cd pdp1134 This works. Your FTP server is, while not actually non-compliant, unusual in that / for anonymous users is not the root of the anonymous directory. The FTP fetch I tried was sending "CWD /pdp1134"; lynx was sending "RETR /pdp1134". "ftp bickleywest.com:pdp1134/KK11-A.pdf" works. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 19 10:18:23 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 08:18:23 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> On 12/18/14 11:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I think I've gotten the SIMH image thing straightened out--and I've added a descriptive record after the EOM marker in the image. looks OK, but it may be difficult to parse, and I'm a little confused by the use of double-quote. ":" is a LEADING keyword identifier? TAPEINFO :Image-file-creator STP2TAP 0.01 :Original-Host DEC VAX VMS :Tape-Density 1600 PE :Tape-Description 10.5" Scotch 700 Label is "FORT 1600 BPI 10/21/86 2 Same Sets FORT045.A FHLP045.A 3M" How do you tell when the Tape-Description string ends? What happens if there is a keyword after a Tape-Description string, or a ":" in any string? Bad block information would be inside this record as well? The problem is you can't change anything in the tape image itself for bad blocks, otherwise it isn't backwards compatible. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 19 10:20:30 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 08:20:30 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> On 12/19/14 8:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/18/14 11:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, I think I've gotten the SIMH image thing straightened out--and I've added a descriptive record after the EOM marker in the image. > > looks OK, but it may be difficult to parse you may want to consider JSON http://www.json.org/xml.html From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri Dec 19 11:02:04 2014 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:02:04 +0000 Subject: IBM PC Server 500 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A49F03@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! Are there many people on here in the Portland Area? Anyone nearby have an IBM PC Server 500? Particularly, I'm looking for the foot, some drives, and the Fast/Wide Streaming RAID Adapter/A... Thanks in advance! -Ben From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 19 05:47:42 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 06:47:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34A cache Message-ID: <20141219114742.46ADF18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lyle Bickley > I put a copy of the PDP-11/34 Cache manual - KK11-A.pdf on my website. Hi, got it - thanks for making this available; perhaps not the most important document out there, but for those with the hardware, fairly crucial! And sorry about the false alarm; it did indeed work fine a couple of hours later, once the DNS attack abated. Blasted crackers - they all need to be given a course of the bastinado. And to think that some of these half-wits think they are 'hackers'.... (blood boils). Noel From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Dec 19 13:13:50 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 14:13:50 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Server 500 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A49F03@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A49F03@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <20141219191349.GI4925@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Benjamin Huntsman [141219 12:02]: > Hi! > Are there many people on here in the Portland Area? Anyone nearby have an IBM PC Server 500? Particularly, I'm looking for the foot, some drives, and the Fast/Wide Streaming RAID Adapter/A... > > Thanks in advance! > > -Ben Portland in the US? Portland Maine? Probably Portland Oregon? Todd From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 19 13:37:13 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 11:37:13 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> On 12/19/2014 08:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/19/14 8:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/18/14 11:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Okay, I think I've gotten the SIMH image thing straightened out--and >>> I've added a descriptive record after the EOM marker in the image. >> >> looks OK, but it may be difficult to parse > > you may want to consider JSON > > http://www.json.org/xml.html Basically, what I've got now is code that adds the "TAPEINFO" line and the created-by line--everything else is read from an external file. For all the application cares, that file could be your favorite chocolate-chip recipe. The issue of what to do with the content and how it should be formatted is one that bears a lot of consideration. A human-readable ultra lightweight markup language is my choice. JSON does require a parser of some sort, so perhaps not a good choice. What, in my opinion, is needed is a simple way to describe what you've got, what you think about it (e.g. "Could be a tape from a Super Whiz-bang 88 system, popular in the 1830s" or "Tape was covered in green mold; this is what we did to recover it."), any external label contents, etc. I think a CRC over the data contents might be useful for giving some sort of integrity assurance. So, maybe a few standardized tags, then free form narrative after that I initially proposed the standardized tags be of a simple but unambiguous form; i.e. colon in the first position of a line, immediately followed by a keyword. Pretty much self-descriptive. Plain old 7-bit ASCII is fine and unlikely to change over time. Here are the very basic SIMH-format issues as I see them. 1. There's no way to express "soft errors". Some interfaces allow for flagging individual frames that contain parity errors, for example. Others allow for retrieving the uncorrected data. 2. The SIMH standard says that a hard error is signified by setting bit 7 in the high-order byte of the block length being set *and* a non-zero block length. What if the interface doesn't allow for the return of raw data? What's the block length then? Even so, where does one put the diagnostic information? 3. Some devices either encode a block number or maintain an internal counter for the block number. There's no place for that in the spec. 4. One can't recognize a SIMH tape image by reading the first few bytes of it--there's no header of any sort. 5. Non textual (i.e. photos) metadata has no provision made for it. I do realize that the interests of those who simply want a simulation capability and those who are interested in archiving do not necessarily converge. Can we come up with a format that satisfies both groups? --Chuck From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri Dec 19 13:46:18 2014 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 19:46:18 +0000 Subject: IBM PC Server 500 In-Reply-To: <20141219191349.GI4925@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A49F03@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <20141219191349.GI4925@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A4A483@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Yep, Oregon. Sorry :) -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Todd Goodman [tsg at bonedaddy.net] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 11:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM PC Server 500 * Benjamin Huntsman [141219 12:02]: > Hi! > Are there many people on here in the Portland Area? Anyone nearby have an IBM PC Server 500? Particularly, I'm looking for the foot, some drives, and the Fast/Wide Streaming RAID Adapter/A... > > Thanks in advance! > > -Ben Portland in the US? Portland Maine? Probably Portland Oregon? Todd From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 13:19:06 2014 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 11:19:06 -0800 Subject: EPROM image for Xylogics 472 (multibus Pertec controller)? In-Reply-To: <54934F48.9080108@bitsavers.org> References: <54934F48.9080108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Al (and everyone else). Looks like I'm all set here. - Josh On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 12/18/14 1:23 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > >> >> On Dec 18, 2014, at 12:37 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: >> >> I'll try to check tonight when I get home... spreadsheet says I have 8 >>> Xylogics SMD controllers... have to see if any is an XY472. >>> >> >> The XY472 is a Pertec-interface 1/2" tape controller. Not SMD. >> >> ok >> bear. >> >> >> > I have that and a XY450 dumped > > > > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Dec 19 22:51:23 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 04:51:23 +0000 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D2EABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 11:37 AM > I do realize that the interests of those who simply want a simulation > capability and those who are interested in archiving do not necessarily > converge. Can we come up with a format that satisfies both groups? I liked the work done by an MIT undergrad, Brian Zuzga, on the Time Capsule File System (undergraduate thesis, June 1995), under the guidance of Alan Bawden. Available on his web site and at MIT through your favorite search engine. I say "liked" because nothing seems to have come of it in the last 20 years... :-( Perhaps it can be revived... Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 19 23:03:10 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 21:03:10 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D2EABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D2EABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5495030E.7070004@bitsavers.org> On 12/19/14 8:51 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I liked the work done by an MIT undergrad, Brian Zuzga, on the Time > Capsule File System (undergraduate thesis, June 1995), under the > guidance of Alan Bawden. Available on his web site and at MIT through > your favorite search engine. > > I say "liked" because nothing seems to have come of it in the last 20 > years... :-( Perhaps it can be revived... > When the AI lab archived their tapes, John used .tap, so not even MIT AI ended up using it (which was what TCFS was intended for). Extending .tap, for all its warts, seems more likely to gain traction. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 20 03:10:47 2014 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:10:47 +0100 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 19.12.14 20:37, schrieb Chuck Guzis: > A human-readable ultra lightweight markup language is my choice. This requirement sounds pretty much like a call for JSON. Simple, extensible, easy to read and write for humans and machines. > JSON does require a parser of some sort, so perhaps not a good choice. ????? Anything requires a parser of some sort. Even something "simple" as a "keyword=value" format will require a parser. If you roll your own format you are doomed to reinvent the parser wheel. If you use JSON you can use one of the various JSON implementations out there. (For C I recommend Jansson and for C++ jsoncpp.) Chuck, I have been in this hell at work. We didn't settle for a well defined format early. We reinvented the wheel. This led to all sorts of inconsistencies and ambiguities. At the moment we are in the painful process of refactoring everything to migrate to JSON... Also keep in mind that JSON is a well defined standard, ECMA-404, and many people already know JSON. -- tsch??, Jochen From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 20 04:43:28 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:43:28 +0100 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-20 10:10, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Am 19.12.14 20:37, schrieb Chuck Guzis: >> A human-readable ultra lightweight markup language is my choice. > This requirement sounds pretty much like a call for JSON. Simple, > extensible, easy to read and write for humans and machines. > >> JSON does require a parser of some sort, so perhaps not a good choice. > ????? > Anything requires a parser of some sort. Even something "simple" as a > "keyword=value" format will require a parser. If you roll your own > format you are doomed to reinvent the parser wheel. If you use JSON you > can use one of the various JSON implementations out there. (For C I > recommend Jansson and for C++ jsoncpp.) > > Chuck, I have been in this hell at work. We didn't settle for a well > defined format early. We reinvented the wheel. This led to all sorts of > inconsistencies and ambiguities. At the moment we are in the painful > process of refactoring everything to migrate to JSON... > > Also keep in mind that JSON is a well defined standard, ECMA-404, and > many people already know JSON. JSON is not really that human readable, and even less human editable. That said - what are people trying to achieve. If someone can explain that a bit, maybe I can also join the fun of this argument... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Dec 20 06:08:54 2014 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:08:54 -0500 Subject: Drivers for a HP Surestore 20XT Message-ID: Anybody happen to have drivers for an old MO optical jukebox by HP? Model Surestore 20XT. HP?s site doesn?t seem to have anything useful. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 08:13:34 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:13:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bedford printer Message-ID: Any interest in a large, heavy printer? A friend of mine is moving his office and has this in storage: "Bedford System 75 printer. This is a Diablo mechanism mounted on a roller stand with Bedford's own electronics board on the back. It has an RS-232 interface." Item is located in Colchester, VT. Free to a loving household! Drop me a note if interested and I'll forward it. Steve -- From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 20 10:13:09 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 16:13:09 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/34A cache References: <20141218210449.E740318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20141218170914.4acfa287@asrock.bcwi.net> <201412190132.UAA22599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54939021.5060309@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <007e01d01c70$d1c221a0$1f8f190a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 2:40 AM Subject: Re: PDP-11/34A cache > I didn't go thru a command line client, but there are always a multitude > of proxy / port (firewall) / passive issues with FTP that can occur. > Many of the tools seem to try all the options and find one that works. > > BTW when I have to, I use filezilla to get to most sites. I almost > never mess with command line FTP if I can avoid it. > > Jim > I actually enjoy command line FTP, but some sites (certainly the one hosting my website) require secure FTP now (FTPS), so I was forced to download software to transfer files on to my own site (the sites normal tools have an upload limit of 5MB!). So when transferring large files (or for quick FTP/FTPS use) I now use FTPrush. It's quick and easy to use (once everything is configured correctly) and works on Windows 2000 :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 20 10:19:32 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:19:32 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5495A194.4090103@bitsavers.org> On 12/20/14 2:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > what are people trying to achieve Chuck is trying to embed metadata in tape image files. The only way to do this and be backwards compatible is to append a record to the end of the image. The argument is what the contents of that record should look like A magic string "TAPEINFO" as the first eight bytes of that record and colon separated keywords has been proposed for the rest. At a minimum, the actual container format and version the image is written in should be there! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 20 11:12:37 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:12:37 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Missile Command Message-ID: <5495AE05.9070804@bitsavers.org> Thought I'd ask here.. Anyone have a copy? It is mentioned in http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=104789.120 There is also a Breakout floating around. From scaron at umich.edu Sat Dec 20 11:17:13 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:17:13 -0500 Subject: HP 16500A Missile Command In-Reply-To: <5495AE05.9070804@bitsavers.org> References: <5495AE05.9070804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: So THAT's what "Option 2" is??!! LOL. (J/K, I assume that's the prototype analyzer...) Wild. Sounds like something put together by some of the 16500 programmers in their spare time? I'd love to see this. Wish I could try it on my 16500B! Best, Sean On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Thought I'd ask here.. Anyone have a copy? It is mentioned in > http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=104789.120 > > There is also a Breakout floating around. > > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Dec 20 13:19:21 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:19:21 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <5495A194.4090103@bitsavers.org> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> <5495A194.4090103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5495CBB9.9050500@jwsss.com> On 12/20/2014 8:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/20/14 2:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> what are people trying to achieve > > Chuck is trying to embed metadata in tape image files. > The only way to do this and be backwards compatible is to append > a record to the end of the image. > > The argument is what the contents of that record should look like > > A magic string "TAPEINFO" as the first eight bytes of that record > and colon separated keywords has been proposed for the rest. > > At a minimum, the actual container format and version > the image is written in should be there Might I ask what the end of the image is? Some tapes have and require more than two EOT markers for a logical end of tape. Maybe the TAPEINFO and some magic tag should be the very last bytes of a tape image which has meta data, and an index in how much crap is at the end of the tape for metadata also is included in that appended bit. Then you just seek to end of file, look for the marker, then back up by the length of the meta data to establish the end of the dataset. I may have just stated the obvious though. Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 13:30:03 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 17:30:03 -0200 Subject: HP 16500A Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <5495AE05.9070804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hint! Hint! It was a gift from the local HP sales team. Then again, HP's T&M Development team was located near us (CO), so we may have had a closer relationship than would have customers in other geographic areas. On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > So THAT's what "Option 2" is??!! LOL. (J/K, I assume that's the prototype > analyzer...) > > Wild. Sounds like something put together by some of the 16500 programmers > in their spare time? I'd love to see this. Wish I could try it on my > 16500B! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Thought I'd ask here.. Anyone have a copy? It is mentioned in > > http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=104789.120 > > > > There is also a Breakout floating around. > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 20 13:37:40 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:37:40 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5495D004.7070906@sydex.com> On 12/20/2014 02:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > That said - what are people trying to achieve. If someone can explain > that a bit, maybe I can also join the fun of this argument... :-) Fair enough, Johnny. Let me present you with a not-atypical job I've gotten. A dilligent archivist goes through the long-mothballed closet or storage space of a university department. He comes up with a bunch of media that appears to be associated with long-gone faculty of some stature. The various bits of media (ranging from 8" floppy disks, open-reel magnetic tapes, cartridges, maybe a few flopticals tossed in) have either very sparse or even no labeling (outside of a sticker with a number on it). The archivist's job is to preserve and document what's on these creatures. Well, you can make image files from the media content, but with an image file, such as the .TAP file format used by SIMH, you have no way to include a description of even what system the media belonged to, much less its recording characteristics, operating system or type of file, character set, etc. You don't even have a way to include the content of the paper label on the tape, much less its recording mode and density. Given that this stuff was accumulated over a period of a decade or two, you have absolutely no reason to assume that the media have any relationship to a system that was installed at the university, much less how to interpret the information. A real example: 10 tapes. 2 IBM S/360, 4 PRIMOS, 2 CDC NOS (different versions, one using a proprietary archive format), 2 unknown system--raw ASCII with no tape label, just files separated by filemarks. In no case, was the system identified on a paper label. For the next poor sod who is told that there are image files, but no metadata in those files, is there any hope? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 20 13:39:32 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:39:32 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <5495CBB9.9050500@jwsss.com> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <549552D0.4040404@update.uu.se> <5495A194.4090103@bitsavers.org> <5495CBB9.9050500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5495D074.6050909@bitsavers.org> On 12/20/14 11:19 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > Maybe the TAPEINFO and some magic tag should be the very last bytes of a tape image which has meta data, and an index in how much crap is at the end of the tape for metadata also is included in that > appended bit. > > Then you just seek to end of file, look for the marker, then back up by the length of the meta data to establish the end of the dataset. > I think what Chuck did by wrapping it in a normal tape block would work as well, other than which convention of block rounding does it follow. I'm trying to find the email exchange I had with Bob about the flag records that he added. I think I was confused about what they actually mean. I need to look to see what the last longword of a SIMH .tap actually is. I would think it would be the physical EOT longword. Another rathole we can go down is what happens when you want to add more metadata. Do you checksum the tape image separately? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 20 15:07:01 2014 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 22:07:01 +0100 Subject: For trade or sale: HP Integral PC-207 Message-ID: <003901d01c98$e7097db0$b51c7910$@xs4all.nl> For who always wanted an HP Integral, I got one for trade or sale. It's equipped with the 1MB memory module and serial port module. Trade is preferred, I'm looking for boards, pods and manuals for the HP 64000 system, HP2100 boards DMA option, Writable Control Store are also a trade option. The Integral works perfect, the drive is cleaned and lubricated, the only thing is the printer flatcable I didn't test it. It looks clean but consider it defective, they almost always are, if it's ok it's your luck. The Integral is located in the Netherlands, shipping over the big pond should be about $100 (estimated). Shipping within Europe about 40,- euro (estimated) local pickup is always possible. If interested please contact me off-list -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 20 15:09:05 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:09:05 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5495E571.1040809@sydex.com> On 12/20/2014 01:10 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Also keep in mind that JSON is a well defined standard, ECMA-404, and > many people already know JSON. Here's the problem. JSON and XML assume some sort of formal structure. I can think of a few standard items, but most of the relevant information will be narrative in nature. There are some useful bits of information that could be incorporated, however. For example, the code used to create the .TAP image also tries to summarize the layout of the tape blocks; e.g., for the sample VMS FORTRAN 4.5 tape: 5 x 80 bytes Tapemark hit at block 6 47 x 9216 bytes Tapemark hit at block 54 4 x 80 bytes Tapemark hit at block 59 4 x 80 bytes Tapemark hit at block 64 25 x 9216 bytes Tapemark hit at block 90 4 x 80 bytes Tapemark hit at block 95 Tapemark hit at block 96 That, and the identification of the drive used to read the tape and the density could be codified. But what about the procedure used to extract real data and the identity and peculiarities of the logical tape format? What about the context of the tape data itself? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 20 15:33:58 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:33:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <5495E571.1040809@sydex.com> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5495E571.1040809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20141220132051.W62907@shell.lmi.net> There is always an off chance that some of the software that uses those files may expect a fixed length, and will freak out if the length isn't what it had expected. Other software may read and process records until it reaches what it thinks of as EOF. If it looks at physical EOF, it will end up reading an extraneous record, that may be of wrong size, but certainly wrong format. Remember what scanf() does when if encounters data that it doesn't understand. Not all software will exit gracefully when it encounters unexpected extraneous content after the last of the expected data. Therefore, there is some risk involved in appending anything to the file(s). Could you create a separate file that is associated with each file? filename.DAT and filename.INF That way, the .DAT file can be an "UNCORRUPTED" exact image of the original data. filename.INF could be a simple text description, maybe even in complete sentences, containing whatever is known about the file, such as record structure(s), etc. (and editable if/when more is learned!) If there is an expectation of an extreme quantity of data files, then the .INF file should have a fixed machine parseable format, followed by a freeform text component at its end. Maybe even create additional files, such as filename.JPG containing an image of the label. The big problem with that is the requirement that the .INF file stay in proximity to the file containing the image of the data. Maybe STAPLE them together? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 20 16:51:45 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:51:45 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <20141220132051.W62907@shell.lmi.net> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5495E571.1040809@sydex.com> <20141220132051.W62907@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5495FD81.9090602@sydex.com> On 12/20/2014 01:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > There is always an off chance that some of the software that uses those > files may expect a fixed length, and will freak out if the length isn't > what it had expected. The SIMH format provides for an EOM record, so things are pretty safe in the respect of trying to read past EOM (end of media). That's the great thing about tape--you have so many feet of tape (imprecisely specified) and that's it. You can't write on air, nor read it. > Therefore, there is some risk involved in appending anything > to the file(s). So not much of a difficulty with that. > Could you create a separate file that is associated with each file? > filename.DAT and filename.INF > That way, the .DAT file can be an "UNCORRUPTED" exact image of the > original data. > filename.INF could be a simple text description, maybe even in complete > sentences, containing whatever is known about the file, such as record > structure(s), etc. (and editable if/when more is learned!) > If there is an expectation of an extreme quantity of data files, > then the .INF file should have a fixed machine parseable format, > followed by a freeform text component at its end. Of course, there's an issue there. What's a file? If there's only one lump of information, you know. But if there are several, then you get into the issue of file names, record formats, etc. For example, how do you represent a Mac resource fork on DOS? What I'm trying to do is to think not only 40+ years back, but 40+ years ahead. I know that that's a tall order, but you can't blame one for trying... Personally, I've found it surprising with what knowledge gets lost in 20 years... --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 20 17:41:41 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 18:41:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 Message-ID: <20141220234141.B741E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > Maybe even create additional files, such as filename.JPG containing an > image of the label. Now that would probably be useful... > The big problem with that is the requirement that the .INF file stay in > proximity to the file containing the image of the data. Maybe STAPLE > them together? Put them all in a ZIP archive together. That archive could also include a 'readme.txt' file which explains what all the other files are, what their format it, etc, etc. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 20 18:38:39 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 16:38:39 -0800 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <20141220234141.B741E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141220234141.B741E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5496168F.5030900@bitsavers.org> On 12/20/14 3:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > The big problem with that is the requirement that the .INF file stay in > > proximity to the file containing the image of the data. Maybe STAPLE > > them together? > > Put them all in a ZIP archive together. That archive could also include a > 'readme.txt' file which explains what all the other files are, what their > format it, etc, etc. > > Noel > > That is what archivists using the Library of Congress' 'bagit' program are doing since archivists have to deal with whatever digital blobs get thrown at them. Sometimes, they even can figure out what the blobs are. CHM's digital repository is being brought up using Archivematica as the software. https://www.archivematica.org/wiki/Main_Page From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 22:13:06 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 22:13:06 -0600 Subject: IBM PC Server 500 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A49F03@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A49F03@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Hi! > Are there many people on here in the Portland Area? Anyone nearby have an IBM PC Server 500? Particularly, I'm looking for the foot, some drives, and the Fast/Wide Streaming RAID Adapter/A... And while we're at it, I am in need of a power supply for a PC Server 500. IBM P/N 06H3596 or Astec P/N AA19370. I'm in 60070 ZIP. -j From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Sat Dec 20 22:43:55 2014 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 04:43:55 +0000 Subject: Wanted: SIMH VAX VMS tape image tester, take 2 In-Reply-To: <20141220132051.W62907@shell.lmi.net> References: <5493CEAF.9090100@sydex.com> <54944FCF.6060905@bitsavers.org> <5494504E.50205@bitsavers.org> <54947E69.8040103@sydex.com> <54953D17.7020608@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5495E571.1040809@sydex.com> <20141220132051.W62907@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D35E2C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Fred Cisin Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 1:34 PM > Could you create a separate file that is associated with each file? > filename.DAT and filename.INF > That way, the .DAT file can be an "UNCORRUPTED" exact image of the > original data. > filename.INF could be a simple text description, maybe even in complete > sentences, containing whatever is known about the file, such as record > structure(s), etc. (and editable if/when more is learned!) > If there is an expectation of an extreme quantity of data files, > then the .INF file should have a fixed machine parseable format, > followed by a freeform text component at its end. > Maybe even create additional files, such as filename.JPG containing an > image of the label. > The big problem with that is the requirement that the .INF file stay in > proximity to the file containing the image of the data. Maybe STAPLE them > together? ...and you've just recreated the essence of the Time Capsule File System. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 21 03:13:18 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:13:18 -0000 Subject: Strange Problem on DECstation 2100 Message-ID: <077701d01cfe$5c5e76f0$151b64d0$@ntlworld.com> I have been trying to get my 2100 working. I have been using MOP to boot the machine and try to install Ultrix, although this is not working for some other reason at the moment. Until this morning, it was booting from MOP just fine, but now it, after leaving the machine overnight and not doing anything to it, I get this when I try to MOP boot: Ultrixload - V4.5 Thu Sep 14 07:07:53 EDT 1995 Excptn: (vtr=NRML) Excptn pc: 0x807001f8 Creg: 0x30000010(CE=3,EXC=RADE) Sreg: 0x30000000(CU1,CU0,IPL=8) Vaddr: 0xaaaaaafe Sp: 0xa13fbba8 0xa13fbba8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80701310 0xa0003b60 0x80700000 0xa13fbbb8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xa13fbbc8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xa13fbbd8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80700048 0xa00039c8 0xaaaaaaaa 0xa13fbbe8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000000 0xa13fbbf8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000001 0xa00039c8 exit(-1) The really strange thing is that if I attach a CD-ROM drive and boot off that first, then try the MOP boot after that, the MOP boot works! Before anyone asks, I have other problems which mean it won't successfully install Ultrix from the CD-ROM, and I am trying the MOP route because of this. The CD-ROM problem is something to do with the block size, I know about the block size jumper and have tried with the jumper installed and removed. I have a workaround which is to connect the CD-ROM, boot off the CD-ROM, let the CD-ROM installation fail, then unplug power from the CD-ROM and boot from MOP. But that is horrible, and wasn't necessary until this morning. Any ideas? Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 21 07:45:49 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 08:45:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 for sale Message-ID: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there's a PDP-8 for sale on eBay, and it's not up with a stupidly massive BiN number, but an actual auction with a reasonable start price: http://www.ebay.com/itm/231424380705 8's aren't my thing, but I'm sure someone here would be interested in this... Noel From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 21 10:10:08 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:10:08 -0500 Subject: Strange Problem on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: <077701d01cfe$5c5e76f0$151b64d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <077701d01cfe$5c5e76f0$151b64d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Robert, Will it MOP boot NetBSD successfully? Something to help give you a feeling if the issue is intrinsic to the machine or it's just something with Ultrix 4.5. You can always try swapping network cable, switch port, AUI transceiver... sometimes this stuff can have some unexpected effects... I had an old SPARCstation 10 years ago that wouldn't boot from any media... or it was just continuously locking up, crashing... I don't remember... but after replacing every part in the box, finally swapping another SPARCstation 10 entirely and having the issue persist, I found it was, believe it or not, a bad Ethernet cable!! Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 4:13 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been trying to get my 2100 working. I have been using MOP to boot > the > machine and try to install Ultrix, although this is not working for some > other reason at the moment. Until this morning, it was booting from MOP > just > fine, but now it, after leaving the machine overnight and not doing > anything > to it, I get this when I try to MOP boot: > > > > Ultrixload - V4.5 Thu Sep 14 07:07:53 EDT 1995 > > > > Excptn: (vtr=NRML) > Excptn pc: 0x807001f8 > Creg: 0x30000010(CE=3,EXC=RADE) > Sreg: 0x30000000(CU1,CU0,IPL=8) > Vaddr: 0xaaaaaafe > Sp: 0xa13fbba8 > 0xa13fbba8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80701310 0xa0003b60 0x80700000 > 0xa13fbbb8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa > 0xa13fbbc8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa > 0xa13fbbd8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80700048 0xa00039c8 0xaaaaaaaa > 0xa13fbbe8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000000 > 0xa13fbbf8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000001 0xa00039c8 > exit(-1) > > > > The really strange thing is that if I attach a CD-ROM drive and boot off > that first, then try the MOP boot after that, the MOP boot works! Before > anyone asks, I have other problems which mean it won't successfully install > Ultrix from the CD-ROM, and I am trying the MOP route because of this. The > CD-ROM problem is something to do with the block size, I know about the > block size jumper and have tried with the jumper installed and removed. > > > > I have a workaround which is to connect the CD-ROM, boot off the CD-ROM, > let > the CD-ROM installation fail, then unplug power from the CD-ROM and boot > from MOP. But that is horrible, and wasn't necessary until this morning. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 21 10:15:48 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:15:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'm not so much the 8-collector (not that I wouldn't take one, LOL) and the machine seems pretty lightly configured but yeah, given the nice condition and the full print set included, not bad at all. More attainable by far than the old MacIvory I I've been watching on there for the last week or two! ;) Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So there's a PDP-8 for sale on eBay, and it's not up with a stupidly > massive BiN number, but an actual auction with a reasonable start price: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231424380705 > > 8's aren't my thing, but I'm sure someone here would be interested > in this... > > Noel > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 21 10:23:29 2014 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 08:23:29 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> On 12/21/2014 8:15 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I'm not so much the 8-collector (not that I wouldn't take one, LOL) and the > machine seems pretty lightly configured but yeah, given the nice condition > and the full print set included, not bad at all. More attainable by far > than the old MacIvory I I've been watching on there for the last week or > two! ;) > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> So there's a PDP-8 for sale on eBay, and it's not up with a stupidly >> massive BiN number, but an actual auction with a reasonable start price: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/231424380705 >> >> 8's aren't my thing, but I'm sure someone here would be interested >> in this... >> >> Noel >> > I guess I should dig out my GIGI if the price he is asking is any indication. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 21 10:31:02 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 08:31:02 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/14 8:23 AM, jim s wrote: > I guess I should dig out my GIGI if the price he is asking is any indication. > Jim > Pricing and the quality of stuff has gone cuckoo there. The 'Vintage Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA cables, and $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late 90's Mac swag. From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 21 10:41:09 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:41:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yeah I saw the GIGI too... neat, but... not quite THAT neat. There is definitely some interesting stuff up there right now, but the prices are off the wall. Everything is overpriced. I think it's just the holidays. Figure I'll wait it out and see what happens in 2015. I got lucky on eBay a few times already this year ;) And yeah, the amount of Socket 7 motherboards, PC video cards, just total junk you have to wade through to find the really interesting stuff... is only growing. Makes me regret EVERYTHING I've ever thrown away, basically. The contents of my garbage can ten years ago were often more interesting than what passes for listings on eBay these days. Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/21/14 8:23 AM, jim s wrote: > > I guess I should dig out my GIGI if the price he is asking is any >> indication. >> Jim >> >> > Pricing and the quality of stuff has gone cuckoo there. > The 'Vintage Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA > cables, > and $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but > late 90's > Mac swag. > > > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 10:47:42 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:47:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The 'Vintage Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA > cables, > and $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late > 90's > Mac swag. This happens to every part of the antiques and collectable market, and it is not just an Ebay thing. -- Will From connork at connorsdomain.com Sun Dec 21 10:50:05 2014 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:50:05 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5496FA3D.6000007@connorsdomain.com> On 12/21/2014 11:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The 'Vintage Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA >> cables, >> and $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late >> 90's >> Mac swag. > This happens to every part of the antiques and collectable market, and > it is not just an Ebay thing. > > -- > Will I agree that ebay should be taken with a grain of salt but not ignored. This was sold just yesterday and is a great example of why. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cromemco-System-Three-Computer-Vintage-/231423312962?nma=true&si=nsqD1OKrVu83f6gcUONx%252FC0SuIQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 Connor K. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 10:51:31 2014 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:51:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Makes me regret EVERYTHING I've ever thrown away, basically. > The contents of my garbage can ten years ago were often more interesting > than what passes for listings on eBay these days. Think of what it is like for us that have been doing this for nearly 30 years. I remember passing on craploads of good vintage stuff back in the late 1980s because they did not have blinkenlights or - gasp! - was made after 1980. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 21 10:54:32 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:54:32 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com>,<5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > The 'Vintage Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA cables, > and $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late 90's I first read that as S100 386SX boards and thought 'I want one of those'.. Oh well... > Mac swag. Looking at the 8 listing that started this, the thing I noticed was that it has the memory sense/inhibit board but not the address drivers or the core plane. I wonder if the latter is on somebody's wall :-( -tony From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Dec 21 10:59:45 2014 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:59:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141221165945.GS4925@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * tony duell [141221 11:54]: > > > > The 'Vintage Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA cables, > > and $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late 90's > > I first read that as S100 386SX boards and thought 'I want one of those'.. Oh well... Check out the N8VEM google group and S100Computers.com for an S-100 80386 board (and more.) Todd From scaron at umich.edu Sun Dec 21 11:22:48 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:22:48 -0500 Subject: Strange Problem on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: References: <077701d01cfe$5c5e76f0$151b64d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Oh, also, did you boot once, then interrupt, then try to boot again? I honestly don't remember if it's like on the VAX but sometimes the machines get confused and you need to INITIALIZE between boot attempts. Just another idea. MOP boot just fails completely now across power cycles, etc? Best, Sean On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Will it MOP boot NetBSD successfully? Something to help give you a feeling > if the issue is intrinsic to the machine or it's just something with Ultrix > 4.5. > > You can always try swapping network cable, switch port, AUI transceiver... > sometimes this stuff can have some unexpected effects... I had an old > SPARCstation 10 years ago that wouldn't boot from any media... or it was > just continuously locking up, crashing... I don't remember... but after > replacing every part in the box, finally swapping another SPARCstation 10 > entirely and having the issue persist, I found it was, believe it or not, a > bad Ethernet cable!! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 4:13 AM, Robert Jarratt < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> I have been trying to get my 2100 working. I have been using MOP to boot >> the >> machine and try to install Ultrix, although this is not working for some >> other reason at the moment. Until this morning, it was booting from MOP >> just >> fine, but now it, after leaving the machine overnight and not doing >> anything >> to it, I get this when I try to MOP boot: >> >> >> >> Ultrixload - V4.5 Thu Sep 14 07:07:53 EDT 1995 >> >> >> >> Excptn: (vtr=NRML) >> Excptn pc: 0x807001f8 >> Creg: 0x30000010(CE=3,EXC=RADE) >> Sreg: 0x30000000(CU1,CU0,IPL=8) >> Vaddr: 0xaaaaaafe >> Sp: 0xa13fbba8 >> 0xa13fbba8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80701310 0xa0003b60 0x80700000 >> 0xa13fbbb8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa >> 0xa13fbbc8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa >> 0xa13fbbd8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80700048 0xa00039c8 0xaaaaaaaa >> 0xa13fbbe8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000000 >> 0xa13fbbf8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000001 0xa00039c8 >> exit(-1) >> >> >> >> The really strange thing is that if I attach a CD-ROM drive and boot off >> that first, then try the MOP boot after that, the MOP boot works! Before >> anyone asks, I have other problems which mean it won't successfully >> install >> Ultrix from the CD-ROM, and I am trying the MOP route because of this. The >> CD-ROM problem is something to do with the block size, I know about the >> block size jumper and have tried with the jumper installed and removed. >> >> >> >> I have a workaround which is to connect the CD-ROM, boot off the CD-ROM, >> let >> the CD-ROM installation fail, then unplug power from the CD-ROM and boot >> from MOP. But that is horrible, and wasn't necessary until this morning. >> >> >> >> Any ideas? >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Dec 21 11:41:57 2014 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:41:57 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141221174157.GA386630@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 08:31:02AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: [...] > Pricing and the quality of stuff has gone cuckoo there. The 'Vintage > Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA cables, and $100 > 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late 90's Mac > swag. To be devil's advocate, what is "vintage"? A quick trawl through that category on ebay.co.uk brings up exactly what I'd expect to see. It's about 80% popular British 8 bit machines and low-end Amigas, one nasty-looking Pentium desktop (which at ?25 is at least ?50 too much), some other horrible Wintel portables, and then we get to the more interesting stuff: a Poquet PC (yeah, it's x86, but it's *interesting* x86), a cache of useful-looking EPROMs in various sizes, and a 70s vintage "TV Game". A better hit rate for my interests than Amazon's "recommendations", if anything! I'd argue that the late 90s is now vintage. After all, my favourite vintage booze comes from 1998... From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Dec 21 13:45:28 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:45:28 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141221194528.GA17753@lonesome.com> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:41:09AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > There is definitely some interesting stuff up there right now, but the > prices are off the wall. Everything is overpriced. As someone who works for a company that sells things on eBay ... ... the key is to research "sold listings". There can be a night-and-day difference between that and the "completed listings" :-) e.g. you can *list* stuff for whatever. The question is what someone will *pay* for it. Looking at the listed-but-didn't-sell prices will give you an idea of how foolish some sellers are being. mcl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 21 14:19:18 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:19:18 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <20141221194528.GA17753@lonesome.com> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> , <20141221194528.GA17753@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > > There is definitely some interesting stuff up there right now, but the > > prices are off the wall. Everything is overpriced. > > As someone who works for a company that sells things on eBay ... > > ... the key is to research "sold listings". There can be a night-and-day > difference between that and the "completed listings" :-) > > e.g. you can *list* stuff for whatever. The question is what someone will > *pay* for it. Looking at the listed-but-didn't-sell prices will give you > an idea of how foolish some sellers are being. But that isn't the whole story either.. Suppose I win an object for, say, $50. What you don't know is that my high bid limit was actually $200 and that I would have been happy to pay $200 for it. It's the same in second-hand shops, collector's fairs and physical auctions too, of course. The other week I saw an object I was interested in at a collectors fair. I asked the price, the seller replied, I paid and took the object. What I didn't say was that I would have paid 4 times as much for it. And nor would anyone else have said that in the same position. Then there's the issue (at auctions, physical and E-bay) of 2 people in a bidding war. An object is listed, bids start at, say, $50. 2 people want it, and bid against each other. Finally one gets it for $1000 as against the other's $990. So does that make it worth $1000? Well, if you now list another one starting at $50, you may well find only one person (the loser of the previous auction) bids, so gets it for the opening bid of $50. -tony From mazzinia at tin.it Sun Dec 21 14:42:01 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:42:01 +0100 Subject: What happened to nekochan ? Message-ID: <003c01d01d5e$9335c3d0$b9a14b70$@tin.it> It's down since days, anyone has any idea ? From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Dec 21 15:04:11 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:04:11 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> <20141221194528.GA17753@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20141221210411.GA22592@lonesome.com> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 08:19:18PM +0000, tony duell wrote: > Then there's the issue (at auctions, physical and E-bay) of 2 people > in a bidding war. This leads to my company's selling an equivalent laptop for $40 one day and $80 the next. It confuses us. mcl From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 15:08:14 2014 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:08:14 -0000 Subject: What happened to nekochan ? In-Reply-To: <003c01d01d5e$9335c3d0$b9a14b70$@tin.it> References: <003c01d01d5e$9335c3d0$b9a14b70$@tin.it> Message-ID: <010901d01d62$3c978d70$b5c6a850$@gmail.com> There is a thread here:- http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45563-What-Happened-t o-Nekochan-net&p=350177#post350177 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mazzini > Alessandro > Sent: 21 December 2014 20:42 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: What happened to nekochan ? > > It's down since days, anyone has any idea ? From mazzinia at tin.it Sun Dec 21 15:40:27 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:40:27 +0100 Subject: R: What happened to nekochan ? In-Reply-To: <010901d01d62$3c978d70$b5c6a850$@gmail.com> References: <003c01d01d5e$9335c3d0$b9a14b70$@tin.it> <010901d01d62$3c978d70$b5c6a850$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01d01d66$bd68b510$383a1f30$@tin.it> Saw this before writing, tbh. Was wondering if there were more infos -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Dave G4UGM Inviato: domenica 21 dicembre 2014 22:08 A: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Oggetto: RE: What happened to nekochan ? There is a thread here:- http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45563-What-Happened-t o-Nekochan-net&p=350177#post350177 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Mazzini Alessandro > Sent: 21 December 2014 20:42 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: What happened to nekochan ? > > It's down since days, anyone has any idea ? From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Dec 21 16:07:03 2014 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:07:03 -0600 Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Today I took the printer apart all the way down to the HVPS (the very last board in the bottom) and it looks like one LV electrolytic leaked (fishy smell, sticky stuff on board). It?s a significantly more complex board than I thought, with several transformers for generating various voltages. I would hate to put it all back together after replacing the cap and find out it still doesn?t work...Mike, sent you a PM, I would like to try your board.thanks.----------------------------I've got a IIp (no +) that's destined for the scrapper that was working last time I tried it a few years back; if it's the same PS, no one else offers one, and you're not in a hurry, send me a reminder off-list. I'm in Toronto; a little closer than Brazil but probably not much cheaper, shipping-wise ;-) m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 11:57 AM Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer I?m trying to find the high voltage power supply board for my old LaserJet IIp+ printer. Several places claim to sell them, but as soon as you order, within a day or two, they are mysteriously ?out of stock, sorry for the error?. A good used one would be fine. thanks for any help. -Charles From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 21 16:08:32 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:08:32 -0800 Subject: R: What happened to nekochan ? In-Reply-To: <003d01d01d66$bd68b510$383a1f30$@tin.it> References: <003c01d01d5e$9335c3d0$b9a14b70$@tin.it> <010901d01d62$3c978d70$b5c6a850$@gmail.com> <003d01d01d66$bd68b510$383a1f30$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20141221140832.5288c1ac@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:40:27 +0100 "Mazzini Alessandro" wrote: > Saw this before writing, tbh. Was wondering if there were more infos > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Dave > G4UGM Inviato: domenica 21 dicembre 2014 22:08 > A: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Oggetto: RE: What happened to nekochan ? > > There is a thread here:- > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45563-What-Happened-t > o-Nekochan-net&p=350177#post350177 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Mazzini Alessandro > > Sent: 21 December 2014 20:42 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: What happened to nekochan ? > > > > It's down since days, anyone has any idea ? The domain is still owned by nekochan, but their nameservers are down, hence no dns resolution. Their IP was: 64.81.247.28 - and it does not respond to pings, http or dns requests. Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 18:15:52 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:15:52 -0200 Subject: Need HVPS for old Laserjet IIp printer References: Message-ID: <62B506929EC34B59B8BAB085E61E66D3@deskjara> >I'm in Toronto; a little closer than Brazil but probably not much cheaper, >shipping-wise ;-) Anything is cheaper than shipping from Brazil. EVEN UK!!! :o But at least we try to help... From j at ckrubin.us Mon Dec 22 02:23:09 2014 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 08:23:09 +0000 Subject: DEC printsets on line Message-ID: I've digitized several early PDP-8 related printsets and placed them online in a public Dropbox folder. Circumstances did not allow direct scanning of the documents - they were photographed and then post-processed to produce .pdf files. Conditions were less than optimal and the resultant files are quite large but hopefully these files will be of use to those who need them. The files are: 779 Power Supply 832 Power Controller PDP-8/I Printset DM01 Printset KW8I Printset TC01 Printset TU55 Printset The files are located at: http://tinyurl.com/PDP8I-docs Best, Jack From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 22 07:25:22 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:25:22 +0000 Subject: Strange Problem on DECstation 2100 In-Reply-To: References: <077701d01cfe$5c5e76f0$151b64d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the delay in replying. I am not able to try the things you suggest for a couple of weeks now. I didn't try MOP booting NetBSD, but I certainly could try that. I tried booting the DECstation across power cycles, but until I have done an initial boot off CD-ROM it won't MOP boot at all. Regards Rob On 21 December 2014 at 17:22, Sean Caron wrote: > Oh, also, did you boot once, then interrupt, then try to boot again? I > honestly don't remember if it's like on the VAX but sometimes the machines > get confused and you need to INITIALIZE between boot attempts. Just another > idea. MOP boot just fails completely now across power cycles, etc? > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > Hi Robert, > > > > Will it MOP boot NetBSD successfully? Something to help give you a > feeling > > if the issue is intrinsic to the machine or it's just something with > Ultrix > > 4.5. > > > > You can always try swapping network cable, switch port, AUI > transceiver... > > sometimes this stuff can have some unexpected effects... I had an old > > SPARCstation 10 years ago that wouldn't boot from any media... or it was > > just continuously locking up, crashing... I don't remember... but after > > replacing every part in the box, finally swapping another SPARCstation 10 > > entirely and having the issue persist, I found it was, believe it or > not, a > > bad Ethernet cable!! > > > > Best, > > > > Sean > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 4:13 AM, Robert Jarratt < > > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > >> I have been trying to get my 2100 working. I have been using MOP to boot > >> the > >> machine and try to install Ultrix, although this is not working for some > >> other reason at the moment. Until this morning, it was booting from MOP > >> just > >> fine, but now it, after leaving the machine overnight and not doing > >> anything > >> to it, I get this when I try to MOP boot: > >> > >> > >> > >> Ultrixload - V4.5 Thu Sep 14 07:07:53 EDT 1995 > >> > >> > >> > >> Excptn: (vtr=NRML) > >> Excptn pc: 0x807001f8 > >> Creg: 0x30000010(CE=3,EXC=RADE) > >> Sreg: 0x30000000(CU1,CU0,IPL=8) > >> Vaddr: 0xaaaaaafe > >> Sp: 0xa13fbba8 > >> 0xa13fbba8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80701310 0xa0003b60 0x80700000 > >> 0xa13fbbb8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa > >> 0xa13fbbc8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa > >> 0xa13fbbd8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0x80700048 0xa00039c8 0xaaaaaaaa > >> 0xa13fbbe8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000000 > >> 0xa13fbbf8 : 0xaaaaaaaa 0xaaaaaaaa 0x00000001 0xa00039c8 > >> exit(-1) > >> > >> > >> > >> The really strange thing is that if I attach a CD-ROM drive and boot off > >> that first, then try the MOP boot after that, the MOP boot works! Before > >> anyone asks, I have other problems which mean it won't successfully > >> install > >> Ultrix from the CD-ROM, and I am trying the MOP route because of this. > The > >> CD-ROM problem is something to do with the block size, I know about the > >> block size jumper and have tried with the jumper installed and removed. > >> > >> > >> > >> I have a workaround which is to connect the CD-ROM, boot off the CD-ROM, > >> let > >> the CD-ROM installation fail, then unplug power from the CD-ROM and boot > >> from MOP. But that is horrible, and wasn't necessary until this morning. > >> > >> > >> > >> Any ideas? > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> > > > From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Dec 22 11:31:30 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:31:30 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for playing everyone. The answer I was looking for was vertical displacement of the letters or wavy text. There are two reasons this happened. The primary reason is the critical timing of the firing of the hammer. The other reason would affect all types of impact printers and that is stopping the paper motion through the printer. This was not usually a problem unless the weight of the paper was very light which would allow the sprocket holes to elongate. This would allow the paper to continue moving around while the drum was completing its turn. The sprocket holes could also elongate if the paper tension was increased too much. None of this was of much concern on the slower 300 lpm printers but at 1000 lpm or faster timing would be more than three times as critical. Chain, train, and band printers would tend to have mild misalignment in the horizontal direction but could still have vertical alignment issues if the paper continued to move around. One of my friends reminded me of the most unusual uses of the 1000 LPM printer on the CDC 3400 that South Dakota School of Mines and Technology had in the 1970's and that was as a bass drum when the computer played the Stars and Stripes forever. I only saw this run a handful of times and it is probably one of those things lost forever. Even if someone had a copy of the program no simulator would be accurate enough to run it and I am pretty sure there is no running hardware. Doug Ingraham On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > OK, so somewhat weekly questions. > > Back in the days of high speed line printers there was a characteristic of > drum style printers that made the output print style quite distinct. What > was this characteristic? > > > I don't miss the noise of those devices and it seemed like no matter how > careful you were when changing the ribbon you would smudge your hands. > > > Doug Ingraham > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 22 12:57:30 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:57:30 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5498699A.4020200@sydex.com> On 12/22/2014 09:31 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > One of my friends reminded me of the most unusual uses of the 1000 LPM > printer on the CDC 3400 that South Dakota School of Mines and Technology > had in the 1970's and that was as a bass drum when the computer played the > Stars and Stripes forever. I only saw this run a handful of times and it > is probably one of those things lost forever. Even if someone had a copy > of the program no simulator would be accurate enough to run it and I am > pretty sure there is no running hardware. "Anchors Aweigh" was also another favorite when the Navy brass showed up--and the Navy was usually a very good customer in those days. It was said that CDC would have an order as soon as a new machine was announced. Perhaps not true, but pretty nearly. One aspect of hammer issues (and this also was a problem in later train printers) was contamination from the ribbon and paper dust. Eventually a hammer would become sluggish and its characters vertically displaced--train printers had characters horizontally displaced. Character wear was also a problem. In programming shops where lots of core dumps were taken, the "fuzzy zero" was a common artifact. Here's a photo of a 501: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LCM_-_CDC_501_printer_and_other_equipment_-_01.jpg It's the bug box in the middle next to the card punch. Interesting tidbit is that the 501 drum printer took the same ribbon as the 512 train printer. Each ribbon came with a pair of poly gloves for handling the filthy thing. --Chuck From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Mon Dec 22 13:08:45 2014 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:08:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Dec 2014, Doug Ingraham wrote: > One of my friends reminded me of the most unusual uses of the 1000 LPM > printer on the CDC 3400 that South Dakota School of Mines and Technology > had in the 1970's and that was as a bass drum when the computer played the > Stars and Stripes forever. I only saw this run a handful of times and it > is probably one of those things lost forever. Even if someone had a copy Back about 35 years ago, a friend told me that he was once a student at Red Deer College in Alberta, Canada where he programmed his batch jobs so that the printer made a distictive noise when his output was printed. Apparantly the printer could be heard pretty much any place where he was likely to be. In unrelated news, I maintained two Data Printer Corporation "Chain Train" line printers at that time and once had a problem where the left and right edges of the output became wavey. After a moderate amount of scrutiny, the problem was traced to a marginal capacitor in the main power supply (it is still on my desk and it is a... hmm... General Electric 3042181 86F570MA 40,000 uF 50VDC unit). There were two identical capacitors and it took a long time to dig that far into the machine so I replaced both of them. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 22 13:51:42 2014 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:51:42 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141215) In-Reply-To: <5498699A.4020200@sydex.com> References: <5498699A.4020200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5498764E.4090908@sydex.com> On 12/22/2014 10:57 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > "Anchors Aweigh" was also another favorite when the Navy brass showed > up--and the Navy was usually a very good customer in those days. It was > said that CDC would have an order as soon as a new machine was > announced. Perhaps not true, but pretty nearly. I should also add that the 60x (and probably 65x) 7-track tape drives were used to good effect. Reading (and writing) short records caused the voice-coil valves switching the vacuum capstan flows made quite a loud (with recognizable pitch) sound. The usual custom was to leave the tape door down to better hear it. From memory, said noise was also quite audible when running some of the Navy Audit COBOL tests even with the door closed--so much so, that people on the other side of a room packed with noisy equipment could hear it quite distinctly. --Chuck From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Mon Dec 22 07:06:09 2014 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:06:09 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 For Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Looking at the 8 listing that started this, the thing I noticed was that it has the memory sense/inhibit board > but not the address drivers or the core plane. I wonder if the latter is on somebody's wall :-( > > -tony I think he's just quoting the card numbers from the handles. Looks as though the whole (3-card) stack is there OK. Bob From doug at doughq.com Mon Dec 22 16:09:15 2014 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:09:15 +1100 Subject: PDP-8 For Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5498968B.8020902@doughq.com> I feel guilt now - I think I have a PDP8 16k core board on my wall (Mounted so it isn't damaged :-) Doug On 23/12/2014 12:06 AM, Robert Adamson wrote: >> Looking at the 8 listing that started this, the thing I noticed was that it has the memory sense/inhibit board >> but not the address drivers or the core plane. I wonder if the latter is on somebody's wall :-( >> >> -tony > I think he's just quoting the card numbers from the handles. Looks as though the whole (3-card) stack is there OK. > > Bob > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Dec 22 16:36:37 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:36:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 For Sale In-Reply-To: <5498968B.8020902@doughq.com> References: <5498968B.8020902@doughq.com> Message-ID: Sometimes boards make for a nice display. I've got an IP17 and an IO3 out of an old SGI Crimson up on the walls in my basement (pulled years ago from a chassis where the PSU smoked out in spectacular fashion). All my core stays in the Unibus, though ;) Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > I feel guilt now - I think I have a PDP8 16k core board on my wall > (Mounted so it isn't damaged :-) > > Doug > > > > On 23/12/2014 12:06 AM, Robert Adamson wrote: > >> Looking at the 8 listing that started this, the thing I noticed was that >>> it has the memory sense/inhibit board >>> but not the address drivers or the core plane. I wonder if the latter is >>> on somebody's wall :-( >>> >>> -tony >>> >> I think he's just quoting the card numbers from the handles. Looks as >> though the whole (3-card) stack is there OK. >> >> Bob >> >> From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 22 16:44:32 2014 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 14:44:32 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project Message-ID: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> For any of you who are on more than one of these lists, I apologize in advance for your getting multiple copies of this. Now that I'm moved into the new place and the man cave (my basement) is converging on a usable state and in recognition of the upcoming 50th anniversary of the introduction of the PDP-8, I'm about to embark on a project to restore a PDP-8/M I got a while back. Unfortunately, this one is somewhat incomplete.. So I'm looking to start collecting some of the bits I'll need before it's all said and done. The items I need are in descending order of priority: KK8E M8320 Bus load module KL8E M8650 Async module H851 Inter-module jumper blocks for the CPU boards Memory Storage device and controller Power switch key One front panel switch paddle If you have any of those that you're looking to unload (especially the M8320 or the M8650), let me know. Obviously, I can live without the switch paddle and I should be able to get a new key cut, but if anyone has extras lying around, I promise to give them a good home. The truth is I don't expect to come up with memory or storage devices for what I can justify spending. However, it turns out I do have an Omnibus prototype board. So I'm planning to use that to build a device to emulate a set of RK05s using an SD card for storage, and if need be, I can put memory on there too. Thanks in advance, BLS From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 21:26:57 2014 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 22:26:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for N* Advantage hard disk BIOS? Message-ID: Is this available anywhere? I have only been able to find the floppy BIOS disassembly for Horizon. -- From shumaker at att.net Mon Dec 22 20:46:35 2014 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:46:35 -0800 Subject: DEC printsets on line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> Jack How did you set up the dropbox? cost? size limits? I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am looking at options Steve On 12/22/2014 12:23 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've digitized several early PDP-8 related printsets and placed them online in a public Dropbox folder. Circumstances did not allow direct scanning of the documents - they were photographed and then post-processed to produce .pdf files. Conditions were less than optimal and the resultant files are quite large but hopefully these files will be of use to those who need them. > > The files are: > 779 Power Supply > 832 Power Controller > PDP-8/I Printset > DM01 Printset > KW8I Printset > TC01 Printset > TU55 Printset > > The files are located at: http://tinyurl.com/PDP8I-docs > > Best, > Jack > > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Dec 22 21:03:48 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 22:03:48 -0500 Subject: DEC printsets on line In-Reply-To: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> Message-ID: Dropbox is just another cloud storage provider, you can sign up for free and you get some number of gigs to start with... you can pay more for extra space but the default allocation is fairly generous. There's a client for most OS platforms that will allow you to mount the DropBox share and have it look like local storage... probably WebDAV or something. Just go to www.dropbox.com and you can set up an account. Some of the folks that I support at U-M use it for casual data transfers. It's been around for a while now. If you wanted to have the spreadsheet up as like a group-edit kind of thing, maybe better to use Google Docs? Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:46 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Jack > > How did you set up the dropbox? cost? size limits? > > I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am > looking at options > > Steve > > > On 12/22/2014 12:23 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > >> I've digitized several early PDP-8 related printsets and placed them >> online in a public Dropbox folder. Circumstances did not allow direct >> scanning of the documents - they were photographed and then post-processed >> to produce .pdf files. Conditions were less than optimal and the resultant >> files are quite large but hopefully these files will be of use to those who >> need them. >> >> The files are: >> 779 Power Supply >> 832 Power Controller >> PDP-8/I Printset >> DM01 Printset >> KW8I Printset >> TC01 Printset >> TU55 Printset >> >> The files are located at: http://tinyurl.com/PDP8I-docs >> >> Best, >> Jack >> >> >> > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Dec 22 21:16:26 2014 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:16:26 -0800 Subject: spreadsheet file access was: Re: DEC printsets on line In-Reply-To: References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> Message-ID: <5498DE8A.1090508@att.net> It's not really a "group edit." Rather, I've been working on an inventory of a large ephemera collection (over 3000 listed items) that will shortly be posted here as "free for shipping to the first requestor" on an item by item basis. This is the ephemera collection that Barry Dobbyns posted last fall as desperately needing a new home. Al and CHM have already pulled what they want. The rest will be up for grabs in a week or so.. Thus, I'm looking for an easily and universally accessible place to post the file without putting the traffic on here. I've not used drop box but it sounds like it will work. Steve On 12/22/2014 7:03 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Dropbox is just another cloud storage provider, you can sign up for free > and you get some number of gigs to start with... you can pay more for extra > space but the default allocation is fairly generous. There's a client for > most OS platforms that will allow you to mount the DropBox share and have > it look like local storage... probably WebDAV or something. Just go to > www.dropbox.com and you can set up an account. Some of the folks that I > support at U-M use it for casual data transfers. It's been around for a > while now. > > If you wanted to have the spreadsheet up as like a group-edit kind of > thing, maybe better to use Google Docs? > > Best, > > Sean > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:46 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> Jack >> >> How did you set up the dropbox? cost? size limits? >> >> I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am >> looking at options >> >> Steve >> >> >> On 12/22/2014 12:23 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: >> >> >>> I've digitized several early PDP-8 related printsets and placed them >>> online in a public Dropbox folder. Circumstances did not allow direct >>> scanning of the documents - they were photographed and then post-processed >>> to produce .pdf files. Conditions were less than optimal and the resultant >>> files are quite large but hopefully these files will be of use to those who >>> need them. >>> >>> The files are: >>> 779 Power Supply >>> 832 Power Controller >>> PDP-8/I Printset >>> DM01 Printset >>> KW8I Printset >>> TC01 Printset >>> TU55 Printset >>> >>> The files are located at: http://tinyurl.com/PDP8I-docs >>> >>> Best, >>> Jack >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 22 22:30:04 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 20:30:04 -0800 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book Message-ID: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> I just got my copy of the Core memory book. Very nice work. I noticed there is what I think may be a mis-identified system in the front. It shows an Apollo system of some sort, but identifies it as an Apollo Guidance computer. I went back and forth a few times and convinced myself it was wrong. It is a very nice book. I've got a few of the systems photographed, which is nice as well. Jim From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Dec 22 22:39:54 2014 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:39:54 +1300 Subject: Ceiling Apples Message-ID: An account of a small vintage computer rescue. Not uncommon machines but I'm glad I saved them from the scrapheap. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2014-12-23-xmas-apple-salvage.htm From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 23 00:33:48 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 00:33:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Dec 2014, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/21/14 8:23 AM, jim s wrote: > >> I guess I should dig out my GIGI if the price he is asking is any >> indication. >> Jim > > Pricing and the quality of stuff has gone cuckoo there. The 'Vintage > Computing' section is now filling up with AGP cards, VGA cables, and > $100 386SX boards. One whole section now is pretty much nothing but late > 90's Mac swag. But...what percentage of that stuff is from Mr. "wiredforservice" and his alt accounts? ;) From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 23 01:05:14 2014 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 01:05:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-8 for sale In-Reply-To: <20141221194528.GA17753@lonesome.com> References: <20141221134549.F103D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5496F401.6070205@jwsss.com> <5496F5C6.6070006@bitsavers.org> <20141221194528.GA17753@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Dec 2014, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:41:09AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > >> There is definitely some interesting stuff up there right now, but the >> prices are off the wall. Everything is overpriced. > > As someone who works for a company that sells things on eBay ... > > ... the key is to research "sold listings". There can be a > night-and-day difference between that and the "completed listings" :-) > > e.g. you can *list* stuff for whatever. The question is what someone > will *pay* for it. Looking at the listed-but-didn't-sell prices will > give you an idea of how foolish some sellers are being. On a related note, I've mentioned this before, but there is also a serious flaw with using eBay completed searches to decide if an item should be listed for sale or junked. If a particular item hasn't been listed on eBay recently, and that is used as the deciding factor to scrap it, you can easily miss out on potential buyers. For example, I routinely search for certain models of Socket 7 Compaq PCs (as well as 386/486 and earlier Compaq desktops and laptops). The models I look for don't turn up too often because most ewaste companies seem to scrap them on sight. Those that do turn up are generally either completely trashed and/or are being listed by small/individual sellers who ask very high prices thinking that they are "rare" and "collectible" because they didn't see them in a completed listings search. [...and for those who would argue that Compaq computers were all junk/unreliable...I have a bunch of Socket 7 Compaq systems running 24/7 which have been running since ~1998-2000 with typically 2-3 reboots or so a year for kernel upgrades. The machines as currently configured are anything but stock, but the chassis, motherboards, and PSUs were pretty well engineered.] From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 02:16:25 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 02:16:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project In-Reply-To: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I have everything on your list, but need to keep the keys and switches till i get all mine put together. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > For any of you who are on more than one of these lists, I apologize > in advance for your getting multiple copies of this. > > Now that I'm moved into the new place and the man cave (my basement) > is converging on a usable state and in recognition of the upcoming 50th > anniversary of the introduction of the PDP-8, I'm about to embark on a > project to restore a PDP-8/M I got a while back. Unfortunately, this one > is somewhat incomplete.. So I'm looking to start collecting some of the > bits I'll need before it's all said and done. The items I need are in > descending > order of priority: > > KK8E M8320 Bus load module > KL8E M8650 Async module > H851 Inter-module jumper blocks for the CPU boards > Memory > Storage device and controller > Power switch key > One front panel switch paddle > > If you have any of those that you're looking to unload (especially > the M8320 or the M8650), let me know. > > Obviously, I can live without the switch paddle and I should be able to > get a new key cut, but if anyone has extras lying around, I promise to > give them a good home. The truth is I don't expect to come up with > memory or storage devices for what I can justify spending. However, > it turns out I do have an Omnibus prototype board. So I'm planning > to use that to build a device to emulate a set of RK05s using an SD > card for storage, and if need be, I can put memory on there too. > > Thanks in advance, > BLS > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 23 02:06:29 2014 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 03:06:29 -0500 Subject: VERY ODD BURROUGHS PHOTO...2 story pile of data binders...Pasadena? http://ww Message-ID: <792be.6779eee3.41ca7c85@aol.com> VERY ODD BURROUGHS PHOTO...2 story pile of data binders...Pasadena? http://www.smecc.org/burroughs.htm go to bottom of page.. seems to be a 2 story pile of data binders... is this Burroughs Pasadena? who are these people? I think we have the whole Burroughs office lined up! this is from the Jack Aldridge collection at SMECC we finally got a scanner to scan larger negatives Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC email us please we do not check the list all the time From simski at dds.nl Tue Dec 23 02:36:29 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:36:29 +0100 Subject: Ceiling Apples In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5499298D.1030702@dds.nl> Nice writeup! congrats with the machines On 23-12-14 05:39, Terry Stewart wrote: > An account of a small vintage computer rescue. Not uncommon machines but > I'm glad I saved them from the scrapheap. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2014-12-23-xmas-apple-salvage.htm > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 02:56:29 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 06:56:29 -0200 Subject: Ceiling Apples In-Reply-To: <5499298D.1030702@dds.nl> References: <5499298D.1030702@dds.nl> Message-ID: I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! I envy you! :o) Congratulations for the find, Tezza! And merry christmas from Brazil :oD On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > Nice writeup! congrats with the machines > > > On 23-12-14 05:39, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> An account of a small vintage computer rescue. Not uncommon machines but >> I'm glad I saved them from the scrapheap. >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2014-12-23-xmas- >> apple-salvage.htm >> >> > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 23 09:16:28 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:16:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hosting large files Was: DEC printsets on line Message-ID: <20141223151628.5C6F718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: steve shumaker > I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am > looking at options I'm happy to host any large files related to the list's focus. Noel From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Dec 23 11:51:12 2014 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:51:12 +0100 Subject: DEC printsets on line why not AFS In-Reply-To: References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> Message-ID: <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2014-12-22 klockan 22:03 -0500 skrev Sean Caron: > Dropbox is just another cloud storage provider, you can sign up for free > and you get some number of gigs to start with... you can pay more for extra > space but the default allocation is fairly generous. There's a client for > most OS platforms that will allow you to mount the DropBox share and have > it look like local storage... probably WebDAV or something. Just go to > www.dropbox.com and you can set up an account. Some of the folks that I > support at U-M use it for casual data transfers. It's been around for a > while now. > > If you wanted to have the spreadsheet up as like a group-edit kind of > thing, maybe better to use Google Docs? > > Best, > > Sean > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:46 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > > Jack > > > > How did you set up the dropbox? cost? size limits? > > > > I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am > > looking at options > > > > Steve > > > > > > On 12/22/2014 12:23 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > > >> I've digitized several early PDP-8 related printsets and placed them > >> online in a public Dropbox folder. Circumstances did not allow direct > >> scanning of the documents - they were photographed and then post-processed > >> to produce .pdf files. Conditions were less than optimal and the resultant > >> files are quite large but hopefully these files will be of use to those who > >> need them. > >> > >> The files are: > >> 779 Power Supply > >> 832 Power Controller > >> PDP-8/I Printset > >> DM01 Printset > >> KW8I Printset > >> TC01 Printset > >> TU55 Printset > >> > >> The files are located at: http://tinyurl.com/PDP8I-docs > >> > >> Best, > >> Jack > >> AFS ? Agreed, it is not universally accessible on Windows for example or Solaris (i don't know how well the AFS clients works in Windows.) I think most Linux dists has a working OpenAFS. But, i think that most of the people on this list is fully able to configure one or two computers for AFS client access. From scaron at umich.edu Tue Dec 23 12:07:34 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:07:34 -0500 Subject: DEC printsets on line why not AFS In-Reply-To: <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: I used to administer an AFS cell at U-M and I know it well... I have a strong appreciation for the sophistication of some of the features, but it's probably not the most practical distribution mechanism... Yes, you can pull it directly out of apt on Debian-style Linux (and I assume similar for RHEL derived distributions) and getting the client up on Windows or Mac OS X these days is pretty easy too, esp. if the volume and file is just globally readable and you don't need to configure Kerberos... but I imagine most people already have a browser or at least an FTP client already installed and casually available... who wants to install OpenAFS to get to one file? Best, Sean On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > m?n 2014-12-22 klockan 22:03 -0500 skrev Sean Caron: > > Dropbox is just another cloud storage provider, you can sign up for free > > and you get some number of gigs to start with... you can pay more for > extra > > space but the default allocation is fairly generous. There's a client for > > most OS platforms that will allow you to mount the DropBox share and have > > it look like local storage... probably WebDAV or something. Just go to > > www.dropbox.com and you can set up an account. Some of the folks that I > > support at U-M use it for casual data transfers. It's been around for a > > while now. > > > > If you wanted to have the spreadsheet up as like a group-edit kind of > > thing, maybe better to use Google Docs? > > > > Best, > > > > Sean > > > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:46 PM, steve shumaker > wrote: > > > > > Jack > > > > > > How did you set up the dropbox? cost? size limits? > > > > > > I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am > > > looking at options > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > On 12/22/2014 12:23 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > > > > >> I've digitized several early PDP-8 related printsets and placed them > > >> online in a public Dropbox folder. Circumstances did not allow direct > > >> scanning of the documents - they were photographed and then > post-processed > > >> to produce .pdf files. Conditions were less than optimal and the > resultant > > >> files are quite large but hopefully these files will be of use to > those who > > >> need them. > > >> > > >> The files are: > > >> 779 Power Supply > > >> 832 Power Controller > > >> PDP-8/I Printset > > >> DM01 Printset > > >> KW8I Printset > > >> TC01 Printset > > >> TU55 Printset > > >> > > >> The files are located at: http://tinyurl.com/PDP8I-docs > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> Jack > > >> > > AFS ? > > Agreed, it is not universally accessible on Windows for example or > Solaris (i don't know how well the AFS clients works in Windows.) > > I think most Linux dists has a working OpenAFS. > > But, i think that most of the people on this list is fully able to > configure one or two computers for AFS client access. > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Dec 23 15:51:16 2014 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:51:16 -0600 Subject: Wanted: MLR1 Cleaning Cartridge and/or Media Message-ID: <20141223215116.GA26270@RawFedDogs.net> Classic Computer Fans, My IBM 9406-270 came with an internal MLR1 tape drive. I recently acquired a tape to test it with. I was able to initialize the tape and save/restore a small test library without errors. I ran a read/write reliability test and that failed. It said it was a 95% chance that it's a hardware problem and a 5% chance it's a media problem. The drive is asking to be cleaned. I'm hoping that it's a media problem or that the drive just needs to be cleaned. Does anyone have an MLR/SLR cleaning cartridge and/or any MLR1 media to spare? -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 23 07:53:53 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 05:53:53 -0800 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book In-Reply-To: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> References: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> On 12/22/14 8:30 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > I just got my copy of the Core memory book. Very nice work. > > I noticed there is what I think may be a mis-identified system in the front. It shows an Apollo system of some sort, but identifies it as an Apollo Guidance computer. I went back and forth a few > times and convinced myself it was wrong. > > proof, please. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 23 08:04:47 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 06:04:47 -0800 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book In-Reply-To: <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> References: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> On 12/23/14 5:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/22/14 8:30 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> I just got my copy of the Core memory book. Very nice work. >> >> I noticed there is what I think may be a mis-identified system in the front. It shows an Apollo system of some sort, but identifies it as an Apollo Guidance computer. I went back and forth a few >> times and convinced myself it was wrong. >> >> > > proof, please. > the artifact http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102691921 photo from mit. http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102622658 there are others http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=apollo+guidance+computer From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 23 10:13:35 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 08:13:35 -0800 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book In-Reply-To: <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> References: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <549994AF.6000009@jwsss.com> On 12/23/2014 6:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/23/14 5:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/22/14 8:30 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> I just got my copy of the Core memory book. Very nice work. >>> >>> I noticed there is what I think may be a mis-identified system in >>> the front. It shows an Apollo system of some sort, but identifies >>> it as an Apollo Guidance computer. I went back and forth a few >>> times and convinced myself it was wrong. >>> >>> >> >> proof, please. >> > > the artifact > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102691921 > > photo from mit. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102622658 > > there are others > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=apollo+guidance+computer > > > > Page 4, front plate of book Photo of an apollo computer. The legend for the photos shows P4 Apollo Guidance Computer. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hZ1lhMW5EQWxUS00&authuser=0 The chapter of the actual Apollo (Command or LEM?) unit is of course what you point out. I think there is a bit of a boo boo for the frontpiece. I don't know which Apollo era computer had a CRT and a floppy. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 23 10:56:30 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 08:56:30 -0800 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book In-Reply-To: <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> References: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54999EBE.7060507@jwsss.com> This may show up twice. On 12/23/2014 6:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/23/14 5:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/22/14 8:30 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> I just got my copy of the Core memory book. Very nice work. >>> >>> I noticed there is what I think may be a mis-identified system in >>> the front. It shows an Apollo system of some sort, but identifies >>> it as an Apollo Guidance computer. I went back and forth a few >>> times and convinced myself it was wrong. >>> >>> >> >> proof, please. >> > > the artifact > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102691921 > > photo from mit. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102622658 > > there are others > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=apollo+guidance+computer > > > > Page 4, front plate of book Photo of an apollo computer. The legend for the photos shows P4 Apollo Guidance Computer. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hZ1lhMW5EQWxUS00&authuser=0 The chapter of the actual Apollo (Command or LEM?) unit is of course what you point out. I think there is a bit of a boo boo for the frontpiece. I don't know which Apollo era computer had a CRT and a floppy. Jim From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 14:12:41 2014 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:12:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Multiple IBM System/23 Datamasters, and more, available in upstate NY Message-ID: <630302689.468419.1419365561019.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10033.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Adam sent me this information, contact him below if interested in these "rare and valuable" systems: ================================================================================================ I have come across the following IBM system/23 models in good condition. They were covered and stored in a clean attic since the mid-late 80's. (1) 5322 - all-in-computer (2) 5324 - modular computer (2) 5242 - printer (1) 5247 - external disk storage (2) terminals - ??? We will probably store these until summer 2015 if we can't find a good home for them they might end up junked. Adam Wheeler adam at deluxedistributors.com Upstate NY ================================================================================================= From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 15:50:05 2014 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 14:50:05 -0700 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book In-Reply-To: <54999EBE.7060507@jwsss.com> References: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> <54999EBE.7060507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: You're right about the caption error. That's an Apollo Domain, from Apollo computer in the 1980s. No relationship whatsoever to the NASA Apollo program. From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 16:43:39 2014 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:43:39 -0700 Subject: Core Memory: a Visual Survey of Vintage Computers book In-Reply-To: References: <5498EFCC.1030506@jwsss.com> <549973F1.6020207@bitsavers.org> <5499767F.2010007@bitsavers.org> <54999EBE.7060507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5499F01B.7050208@gmail.com> On 12/23/2014 2:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > You're right about the caption error. That's an Apollo Domain, from > Apollo computer in the 1980s. No relationship whatsoever to the NASA > Apollo program. That looks like an Apollo Computer DN3xx (DN300, DN320, or DN330) sitting on top of a DSP80. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Computer Rob. From fast79ta at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 18:26:49 2014 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe Piche) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:26:49 -0700 Subject: Okidata 182 Message-ID: <549A0849.4030804@yahoo.com> I was recently playing around with my old ML 182. Due to it's oki rom, it has some what limited use, as even windows 3.1 doesn't support it. There is an IBM rom for the printer mentioned as a kit (310-324-01), that will turn it into an IBM graphics printer. Does any one have, or know where to find this rom image? Thanks, and merry christmas everyone. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Dec 23 16:28:50 2014 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 14:28:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Delivering a computer in 1957 Message-ID: Neat photo: http://twistedsifter.com/2014/12/delivering-a-computer-in-1957/ -- Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From shumaker at att.net Tue Dec 23 19:08:02 2014 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:08:02 -0800 Subject: Hosting large files Was: DEC printsets on line In-Reply-To: <20141223151628.5C6F718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141223151628.5C6F718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <549A11F2.2000902@att.net> On 12/23/2014 7:16 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: steve shumaker > > > I'm looking at posting a large spreadsheet for the list to use and am > > looking at options > > I'm happy to host any large files related to the list's focus. > > Noel > > thanks! Steve From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 23 21:27:16 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:27:16 -0700 Subject: Delivering a computer in 1957 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <549A3294.7080907@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/23/2014 3:28 PM, Sellam ibn Abraham wrote: > > Neat photo: > > http://twistedsifter.com/2014/12/delivering-a-computer-in-1957/ Before or after the Ad? > -- > > Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. > > > * * * NOTICE * * * > > Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has > been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered > reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of > this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational > purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers > against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. > > From wrh at wootsie.com Tue Dec 23 21:39:24 2014 From: wrh at wootsie.com (wrh at wootsie.com) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 21:39:24 -0600 Subject: Delivering a computer in 1957 In-Reply-To: <549A3294.7080907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <549A3294.7080907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Even back then shipping conditions (and posting to today's cctalk) were harsh. -Bill On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 9:27 PM, ben wrote: > On 12/23/2014 3:28 PM, Sellam ibn Abraham wrote: > >> >> Neat photo: >> >> http://twistedsifter.com/2014/12/delivering-a-computer-in-1957/ >> > > Before or after the Ad? > > -- >> >> Sellam ibn Abraham >> VintageTech >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------------ >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintagetech.com >> >> Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always >> simple. >> >> >> * * * NOTICE * * * >> >> Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has >> been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered >> reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of >> this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational >> purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers >> against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. >> >> >> > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 04:05:51 2014 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 10:05:51 +0000 Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e Message-ID: Folks, These machines are still available in Newmarket UK, I'd like to save them even if it means me hiring my own truck next week. Paging Jim Austin, got room for them in York? Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 24 07:19:39 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:19:39 +0100 Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let me try my farmer friends one more time to see if they have storage space. Can't promise though :-( -----Original Message----- From: "Adrian Graham" Sent: ?24/?12/?2014 13:06 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e Folks, These machines are still available in Newmarket UK, I'd like to save them even if it means me hiring my own truck next week. Paging Jim Austin, got room for them in York? Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From supervinx at libero.it Wed Dec 24 07:25:40 2014 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:25:40 +0100 Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1419427540.2496.1.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno mer, 24/12/2014 alle 10.05 +0000, Adrian Graham ha scritto: > Folks, > > These machines are still available in Newmarket UK, I'd like to save them > even if it means me hiring my own truck next week. Paging Jim Austin, got > room for them in York? > > Cheers, > Damn... they're so big... I could make room for them, but carrying them 'til Italy is expensive... :'( -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From hafner.spam at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 12:10:10 2014 From: hafner.spam at gmail.com (Chris Hafner) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 10:10:10 -0800 Subject: Ceiling Apples In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FEE62FB-770E-484A-8D54-AC0ECFF8E3CF@gmail.com> I love your write-ups, Tezza, and congrats on the great score! Sent from my iPad > On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:39 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > An account of a small vintage computer rescue. Not uncommon machines but > I'm glad I saved them from the scrapheap. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2014-12-23-xmas-apple-salvage.htm From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Dec 24 12:14:20 2014 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 19:14:20 +0100 Subject: Best of Season Message-ID: Hello everybody, Happy Holiday (Christmas, Kwanzaa, Chanukka, Yule, Newtonsday...) to all my fellow listmembers. Hope you can enjoy a few holidays and have some (perhaps also classic computer related) fun. My best wishes also for the upcoming year 2015. Yours sincerely, Arno. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 24 12:21:46 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 18:21:46 +0000 Subject: Best of Season In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Hello everybody, > > Happy Holiday (Christmas, Kwanzaa, Chanukka, Yule, Newtonsday...) to all my fellow listmembers. > Hope you can enjoy a few holidays and have some (perhaps also classic computer related) fun. Thank you. I will, indeed, have a holiday. A holiday from unpacking boxes of stuff after my move. I shall spend tomorrow with screwdriver in hand, fiddling with something electronic. Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Yule, Winter Solstice, Halloween (Oct 31 == Dec 25, after all) to all list members and their families -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 17:32:02 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:32:02 -0600 Subject: A bit of Hacker History Message-ID: It's taken me far too long to get these things prepped and posted, so why not a holiday release? Some historical reading for your post-meal time on the sofa: http://silent700.blogspot.com/2014/12/is-this-something.html The tl;dr version: I was given some message board dumps from one of the original hack/phreak scene BBSes, covering a portion of its short run in 1980-1. That led to obtaining some more, which I've cleaned up and compiled into a PDF. I feel they're an invaluable insight into the "state of things" back then, not to mention just a fun read. Some familiar names in this lot...perhaps even some we know...? Happy $holiday(*) and enjoy... -j From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 24 20:07:28 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 21:07:28 -0500 Subject: Best of Season In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <549B7160.9060305@snarc.net> >> Hello everybody, >> >> Happy Holiday (Christmas, Kwanzaa, Chanukka, Yule, Newtonsday...) to all my fellow listmembers. >> Hope you can enjoy a few holidays and have some (perhaps also classic computer related) fun. > Thank you. I will, indeed, have a holiday. A holiday from unpacking boxes of stuff after my move. I > shall spend tomorrow with screwdriver in hand, fiddling with something electronic. > > Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Yule, Winter Solstice, Halloween (Oct 31 == Dec 25, after all) to > all list members and their families Here in MARCH we had a Festivus party... Happy winter solstice, for those of us who are Pastafarians and wear pasta strainers in respect of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. "May you be touched by his noodly appendage." From bensinc at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 21:51:20 2014 From: bensinc at gmail.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 21:51:20 -0600 Subject: A bit of Hacker History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your work on this! I have some reading to do now... On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > It's taken me far too long to get these things prepped and posted, so > why not a holiday release? Some historical reading for your post-meal > time on the sofa: > > http://silent700.blogspot.com/2014/12/is-this-something.html > > The tl;dr version: I was given some message board dumps from one of > the original hack/phreak scene BBSes, covering a portion of its short > run in 1980-1. That led to obtaining some more, which I've cleaned up > and compiled into a PDF. I feel they're an invaluable insight into > the "state of things" back then, not to mention just a fun read. Some > familiar names in this lot...perhaps even some we know...? > > Happy $holiday(*) and enjoy... > > -j > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From scaron at umich.edu Thu Dec 25 00:02:01 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 01:02:01 -0500 Subject: A bit of Hacker History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool, cool, definitely going to check this out. I came to them "after the fact" but I spent a ton of time when I was younger reading Phrack, LOD TJs and plenty of other g-files... Definitely it was formative in my passion for retro computing... I mean, I wanted to experience first-hand all this stuff I was reading about, right? Even tried my hand writing a few g-files of my own as a bright-eyed n00b in middle school but I'll gladly leave those to the dustbin of history, LOL. I only got to experience a couple of years of solid BBSing before the Internet took off for good and killed the scene but I loved it. Even in Kalamazoo, MI, 616 LATA... comparatively out in the sticks... there were a lot of good boards and a lot of good discussions. I think we have a pretty dedicated crew of us trying to kind of emulate the experience on the C*Net but it's tricky with all the jitter and latency of non-QOSed VoIP over the public Internet. Someday, hopefully ;) Best, Sean On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 10:51 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Thanks for your work on this! I have some reading to do now... > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > > > It's taken me far too long to get these things prepped and posted, so > > why not a holiday release? Some historical reading for your post-meal > > time on the sofa: > > > > http://silent700.blogspot.com/2014/12/is-this-something.html > > > > The tl;dr version: I was given some message board dumps from one of > > the original hack/phreak scene BBSes, covering a portion of its short > > run in 1980-1. That led to obtaining some more, which I've cleaned up > > and compiled into a PDF. I feel they're an invaluable insight into > > the "state of things" back then, not to mention just a fun read. Some > > familiar names in this lot...perhaps even some we know...? > > > > Happy $holiday(*) and enjoy... > > > > -j > > > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 25 03:53:39 2014 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:53:39 +1300 Subject: Ceiling Apples In-Reply-To: <4FEE62FB-770E-484A-8D54-AC0ECFF8E3CF@gmail.com> References: <4FEE62FB-770E-484A-8D54-AC0ECFF8E3CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Chris and others who replied. Merry Xmas! On 25/12/2014 7:10 AM, "Chris Hafner" wrote: > I love your write-ups, Tezza, and congrats on the great score! > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:39 PM, Terry Stewart > wrote: > > > > An account of a small vintage computer rescue. Not uncommon machines but > > I'm glad I saved them from the scrapheap. > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2014-12-23-xmas-apple-salvage.htm > From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 02:00:55 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:00:55 +0100 Subject: Merry Christmas Message-ID: Hello Folks, Merry Christmas! Andrea From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 02:10:12 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 02:10:12 -0600 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 2:00 AM, shadoooo wrote: > > Merry Christmas! > Merry Christmas to you too! Here's some LED strings on my Christmas tree controlled by my PDP-8/M for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj3fjYL_QsM Kyle From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 25 02:14:52 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 00:14:52 -0800 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141225001452.2ce11fba@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:00:55 +0100 shadoooo wrote: > Hello Folks, > Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Felice Navidad! Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 25 05:00:07 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 11:00:07 +0000 Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adrian, I thought Jim had picked these up? Are they still available? http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.net https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo > On 24 Dec 2014, at 10:05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Folks, > > These machines are still available in Newmarket UK, I'd like to save them > even if it means me hiring my own truck next week. Paging Jim Austin, got > room for them in York? > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 25 05:02:07 2014 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 11:02:07 +0000 Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85125EE6-7ADC-42DE-92D2-5C53654F2A66@wickensonline.co.uk> Can you give me approximate dimensions for the 7760 and whatever it comes with? I'll talk to the missus http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.net https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo > On 24 Dec 2014, at 10:05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Folks, > > These machines are still available in Newmarket UK, I'd like to save them > even if it means me hiring my own truck next week. Paging Jim Austin, got > room for them in York? > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Dec 25 05:19:46 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 12:19:46 +0100 Subject: Last call for free VAX 6610, VAX 7760, Alpha GS60e In-Reply-To: <85125EE6-7ADC-42DE-92D2-5C53654F2A66@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <85125EE6-7ADC-42DE-92D2-5C53654F2A66@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <549BF2D2.6090103@update.uu.se> The 7660 is a really nice machine. Almost as fast as a VAX ever came. It's one full height cabinet, roughly 22" if I remember right. Six 600-series CPUs in there. Of course, disks were normally external to the machine. Commonly over CI, but other options also exist. Johnny On 2014-12-25 12:02, Mark Wickens wrote: > Can you give me approximate dimensions for the 7760 and whatever it comes with? I'll talk to the missus > > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk > http://declegacy.org.uk > http://retrochallenge.net > https://twitter.com/#!/%40urbancamo > >> On 24 Dec 2014, at 10:05, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> These machines are still available in Newmarket UK, I'd like to save them >> even if it means me hiring my own truck next week. Paging Jim Austin, got >> room for them in York? >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 25 09:05:57 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:05:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: A bit of Hacker History Message-ID: <20141225150557.A7D6918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jason T > I was given some message board dumps from one of the original > hack/phreak scene BBSes ... That led to obtaining some more, which I've > cleaned up and compiled into a PDF. Thank you for saving, and making available, this valuable historical data. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 25 09:32:02 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 07:32:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> Happy Humbug From charles at uniwho.com Thu Dec 25 10:42:53 2014 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 11:42:53 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45A43786-EAFF-4C89-89BB-FB2C42F67D31@uniwho.com> Happy time off? Happy Bonus? Happy full belly? Happy Kids? Happy Wife? Happy Retailers :?? hahahahaa On Dec 25, 2014, at 10:32 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Happy Humbug > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 25 10:56:26 2014 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:56:26 -0600 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <45A43786-EAFF-4C89-89BB-FB2C42F67D31@uniwho.com> References: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> <45A43786-EAFF-4C89-89BB-FB2C42F67D31@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <00b701d02063$b96f61c0$2c4e2540$@classiccmp.org> Best Christmas wishes too all classiccmp'ers! J From isking at uw.edu Thu Dec 25 10:58:14 2014 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 08:58:14 -0800 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <00b701d02063$b96f61c0$2c4e2540$@classiccmp.org> References: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> <45A43786-EAFF-4C89-89BB-FB2C42F67D31@uniwho.com> <00b701d02063$b96f61c0$2c4e2540$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Just say ho! On Dec 25, 2014 8:48 AM, "Jay West" wrote: > Best Christmas wishes too all classiccmp'ers! > > J > > > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Thu Dec 25 09:57:44 2014 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:57:44 -0600 Subject: A bit of Hacker History In-Reply-To: <20141225150557.A7D6918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20141225150557.A7D6918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: This is such an amazing piece of history. I've been reading! Cheers, Mike Whalen On Dec 25, 2014, at 9:05 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Jason T > >> I was given some message board dumps from one of the original >> hack/phreak scene BBSes ... That led to obtaining some more, which I've >> cleaned up and compiled into a PDF. > > Thank you for saving, and making available, this valuable historical data. > > Noel From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Thu Dec 25 11:37:10 2014 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 17:37:10 +0000 Subject: A bit of Hacker History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <549C4B46.5020507@ljw.me.uk> I need to apologise for the fact that Jason's original post didn't make it through to cctech for reasons unknown. However it is included in its entirety in Ben's post below. Lawrence On 25/12/14 03:51, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Thanks for your work on this! I have some reading to do now... > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> It's taken me far too long to get these things prepped and posted, so >> why not a holiday release? Some historical reading for your post-meal >> time on the sofa: >> >> http://silent700.blogspot.com/2014/12/is-this-something.html >> >> The tl;dr version: I was given some message board dumps from one of >> the original hack/phreak scene BBSes, covering a portion of its short >> run in 1980-1. That led to obtaining some more, which I've cleaned up >> and compiled into a PDF. I feel they're an invaluable insight into >> the "state of things" back then, not to mention just a fun read. Some >> familiar names in this lot...perhaps even some we know...? >> >> Happy $holiday(*) and enjoy... >> >> -j > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph 07841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 25 12:12:57 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 11:12:57 -0700 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> References: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <549C53A9.1030605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/25/2014 8:32 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Happy Humbug Joyful Grinching... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 25 13:28:04 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 19:28:04 +0000 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <45A43786-EAFF-4C89-89BB-FB2C42F67D31@uniwho.com> References: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net>, <45A43786-EAFF-4C89-89BB-FB2C42F67D31@uniwho.com> Message-ID: > > Happy Retailers :?? hahahahaa > 'Hark the Herald Tribune sings Advertising wond'rous things God rest ye merry merchants May ye make the Yuletide pay Angels we have heard on high Tell us to go out and buy' Tom Lehrer, of course. And based on what has been going on over here for the last month or so, it's still correct :-(. I have also come to the conclusion that when a product is advertised as 'ideal gift' it means it is so useless you couldn't possibly want it yourself and have to give it away. And that the only meaning of that annoying phrase 'stocking fillers' is 'legs' Merry Newtonsday -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 14:08:16 2014 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 15:08:16 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas References: <20141225073112.H39329@shell.lmi.net> <549C53A9.1030605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: And just a boring old-fashioned wish for a warm and happy Christmas season with family and friends and a fulfilling, prosperous and above all healthy New Year to everyone! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben" To: Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2014 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Merry Christmas > On 12/25/2014 8:32 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Happy Humbug > Joyful Grinching... > From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Dec 25 22:05:11 2014 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 20:05:11 -0800 Subject: My take on the FDADAP WAS: Wooden case for DBit power In-Reply-To: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> References: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <008201d020c1$26b94f40$742bedc0$@net> > Finally feeling guilty enough about stringing a bunch of expensive > electronic bits out on my bench whenever time came to use an 8" disk > drive, I mounted my DBit-sourced parts and power supply into a case. First off merry Christmas to everyone and happy non-denominational holidays to everyone else! :) After seeing the above post I decided it was time I got off my rear end and finished many of these projects I have laying around the house. One such project is getting my 8" drives up and running so I can duplicate/preserve some SW for my IBM 5110/5120 machines and 5322s. The other project is to finally start my web site (generously provided by Jay!). I am glad to say I got a bit of both completed: http://megacube.classiccmp.org/FDADAP/FDADAP.html My apologies for the boorish prose and the non-professional pictures; however, I think the FDADAP came out nice if I do say so myself! Comments, criticisms, tips, and general wailing welcome! -Ali From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 13:47:37 2014 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 13:47:37 -0600 Subject: A bit of Hacker History In-Reply-To: <549C4B46.5020507@ljw.me.uk> References: <549C4B46.5020507@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I need to apologise for the fact that Jason's original post didn't make it > through to cctech for reasons unknown. However it is included in its > entirety in Ben's post below. Thanks for catching that, Lawrence. Seems the relationship btw the two lists is still a bit fuzzy. j From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Dec 26 10:27:35 2014 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 17:27:35 +0100 Subject: DEC printsets on line why not AFS In-Reply-To: References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <1419611255.7703.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2014-12-23 klockan 13:07 -0500 skrev Sean Caron: > I used to administer an AFS cell at U-M and I know it well... I have a > strong appreciation for the sophistication of some of the features, but > it's probably not the most practical distribution mechanism... > > Yes, you can pull it directly out of apt on Debian-style Linux (and I > assume similar for RHEL derived distributions) and getting the client up on > Windows or Mac OS X these days is pretty easy too, esp. if the volume and > file is just globally readable and you don't need to configure Kerberos... > but I imagine most people already have a browser or at least an FTP client > already installed and casually available... who wants to install OpenAFS to > get to one file? One file only ? Why only one file. Agreed, configuring AFS then the reason is distributing one single file nd which is non-changing, is a bit of over-kill (hmm, in this audience is a number of people who likes to fix old junk for example Tony with his HP calculator fixation.) I think he likes to do it, and i do think that it exists people who enjoys configuring and supporting AFS. :-) Silly critter. AFS as a distribution mechanism when that single file changes often , that is something else. Yes, i'm thinking about bitsavers (as an example.) From kula at tproa.net Fri Dec 26 10:36:52 2014 From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 11:36:52 -0500 Subject: DEC printsets on line why not AFS In-Reply-To: <1419611255.7703.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1419611255.7703.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20141226163652.GG1318@gozer.tproa.net> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 05:27:35PM +0100, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > Agreed, configuring AFS then the reason is distributing one single file > nd which is non-changing, is a bit of over-kill (hmm, in this audience > is a number of people who likes to fix old junk for example Tony with > his HP calculator fixation.) I think he likes to do it, and i do think > that it exists people who enjoys configuring and supporting AFS. :-) > Silly critter. Not only do I enjoy it, it's essential to my home environment. I freely admit I'm silly; then again, most of us here are. -- Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/ From scaron at umich.edu Fri Dec 26 10:48:46 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 11:48:46 -0500 Subject: DEC printsets on line why not AFS In-Reply-To: <20141226163652.GG1318@gozer.tproa.net> References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1419611255.7703.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20141226163652.GG1318@gozer.tproa.net> Message-ID: No, sure, sure, not knocking people who want to run AFS for fun or personal interest... far from me to do that... just pointing out that, if the goal is to make some file or set of files conveniently available to the largest possible group, since AFS requires a dedicated client and a teensy bit of clueful configuration, I'm not sure how many takers you'll get. If you want to toss some files in your cell and anyone else on the list who has AFS can grab then, that's cool, but putting that file up on the Web or FTP is going to really broaden that set of people who can just grab the file quickly. Why not DECnet? Why not put it up on a dial-up BBS and we can download it via Xmodem? :) No technology hate here, just speaking from a practical point of view. I really loved being an AFS admin but I did a lot a lot of end user support with the client, too, LOL. Best, Sean On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Thomas Kula wrote: > On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 05:27:35PM +0100, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > Agreed, configuring AFS then the reason is distributing one single file > > nd which is non-changing, is a bit of over-kill (hmm, in this audience > > is a number of people who likes to fix old junk for example Tony with > > his HP calculator fixation.) I think he likes to do it, and i do think > > that it exists people who enjoys configuring and supporting AFS. :-) > > Silly critter. > > Not only do I enjoy it, it's essential to my home environment. I freely > admit I'm silly; then again, most of us here are. > > -- > Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/ > From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Dec 26 13:19:32 2014 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 11:19:32 -0800 Subject: My take on the FDADAP WAS: Wooden case for DBit power In-Reply-To: <008201d020c1$26b94f40$742bedc0$@net> References: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> <008201d020c1$26b94f40$742bedc0$@net> Message-ID: > On Dec 25, 2014, at 20:05 , Ali wrote: > First off merry Christmas to everyone and happy non-denominational holidays to everyone else! :) Thank you, and I wish the same to you and everybody else here! > After seeing the above post I decided it was time I got off my rear end and finished many of these projects I have laying around the house. One such project is getting my 8" drives up and running so I can duplicate/preserve some SW for my IBM 5110/5120 machines and 5322s. The other project is to finally start my web site (generously provided by Jay!). I am glad to say I got a bit of both completed: > > http://megacube.classiccmp.org/FDADAP/FDADAP.html It looks nice! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 26 11:58:15 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 09:58:15 -0800 Subject: DEC printsets on line why not AFS In-Reply-To: <1419611255.7703.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <5498D78B.4070109@att.net> <1419357072.11011.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1419611255.7703.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <549DA1B7.20002@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/14 8:27 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > AFS as a distribution mechanism when that single file changes often , > that is something else. > > Yes, i'm thinking about bitsavers (as an example.) > That is the purpose of bin/IndexByDate.txt and pdf/IndexByDate.txt if you don't have rsync access to the main bitsavers sites. It is regenerated several times a day as I upload content. A few sites offer ftp access. Unfortunately, that's not currently an option on the main site. From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Dec 26 15:57:59 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 14:57:59 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141226) Message-ID: This one is seemingly easy. On the front panel of the original PDP-8 (straight 8), how many lights are there? There is a pretty good picture of one on Wikipedia if you feel like sneaking a peek. Doug Ingraham PDP-8 S/N 1175 From rickb at bensene.com Fri Dec 26 16:56:47 2014 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 14:56:47 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141226) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doug I. wrote: > On the front panel of the original PDP-8 (straight 8), how many lights are > there? 82? 3 Data Field 3 Instruction Field 12 Program Counter 12 Memory Address 12 Memory Buffer 1 Link 12 Accumulator 12 MQ 1 AND 1 TAD 1 ISZ 1 DCA 1 JMS 1 JMP 1 IOT 1 OPR 1 FETCH 1 EXECUTE 1 DEFER 1 BREAK 1 ION 1 PAUSE 1 RUN Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 26 17:18:54 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 00:18:54 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141226) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141226231854.GA17305@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 02:57:59PM -0700, Doug Ingraham wrote: > This one is seemingly easy. > > > On the front panel of the original PDP-8 (straight 8), how many lights are > there? I'll try from memory. There are rows for MA+EMA, MQ, AC+link, MB and PC. That is 12 bits for each row plus 4. Then there are 8 lights indicating which instruction is executing. Surely there is a run light.. I'm guessing 72 lights. /P From info at drukknop.nl Fri Dec 26 16:38:56 2014 From: info at drukknop.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 23:38:56 +0100 Subject: Italians around? Message-ID: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> Hello all, as I am in the process of restoring a Olivetti Programma 101, Jim pointed me to a bunch of documents on the logic in this machine, all in italian. The Programma 101 is build using Resistor-Transistor-Logic, and the schematic representation is not one i've seen before. So I've decided to translate the docs to english and google translate can be of some help here, but a lot of the technical meaning is lost. By looking at the schematics and the boards themselves I could solve some mysteries, but I could use some help in translating. Our machine seems to have intermitted problems and I think they are caused by bad contacts in the backplane, but to be shure, a good schematic and explanation of the workings is a tremendous help. Is there someone able to take a look at the originals and my rudimentary translation and suggest improvements? -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From mazzinia at tin.it Fri Dec 26 20:30:21 2014 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 03:30:21 +0100 Subject: R: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> References: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> Message-ID: <000601d0217d$10507000$30f15000$@tin.it> I guess I can help :) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Simon Claessen Inviato: venerd? 26 dicembre 2014 23:39 A: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Only Oggetto: Italians around? Hello all, as I am in the process of restoring a Olivetti Programma 101, Jim pointed me to a bunch of documents on the logic in this machine, all in italian. The Programma 101 is build using Resistor-Transistor-Logic, and the schematic representation is not one i've seen before. So I've decided to translate the docs to english and google translate can be of some help here, but a lot of the technical meaning is lost. By looking at the schematics and the boards themselves I could solve some mysteries, but I could use some help in translating. Our machine seems to have intermitted problems and I think they are caused by bad contacts in the backplane, but to be shure, a good schematic and explanation of the workings is a tremendous help. Is there someone able to take a look at the originals and my rudimentary translation and suggest improvements? -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From martin at meiner.ch Sat Dec 27 07:07:28 2014 From: martin at meiner.ch (Martin Meiner) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 13:07:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ASR33 carriange stopper issue Message-ID: <1214244184.1725431.1419685648764.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10643.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello guys. I recently acquired for a mere 25 EUR a nice ASR33. Aside of needing a thorough cleaning and greasing, it seems to be pretty much working fine!? But I wouldn't write here if I wouldn't need your help:? The ASR33's carriage has a spring that gets tighter as you type. And upon CR, the spring will bring the carriage back to its original left position. There is a mechanism, similar as a piston and a cylinder, which acts as a "bumper" or stopper. My problem is that this stopper, while not showing any signs of usage, seems too tight. If the carriage is all the way to the right, the spring will be strong enough to overcome the "too tight stopper". But if only a few words were typed followed by CR, the force is not strong enough to bring the carriage to its left home-position. Of course I could take down some of the piston's diameter to overcome the problem. But this doesn't seem right.? Anyone out there also had a problem with this stopper being too tight to bring the carriage to its home position and how to overcome it?? Thanks for any advise on the issue.?Martin? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 27 08:14:28 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:14:28 +0100 Subject: ASR33 carriange stopper issue In-Reply-To: <1214244184.1725431.1419685648764.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10643.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1214244184.1725431.1419685648764.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10643.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have not seen this on my 33. There is a little valve at the end of the cylinder to let air out, try adjusting that. I can't remember if you should oil or grease the cylinder too, I am not at home to check what I did. Careful not to make the resistance too low either, it needs to be not too high or too low. Regards Rob -----Original Message----- From: "Martin Meiner" Sent: ?27/?12/?2014 14:07 To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: ASR33 carriange stopper issue Hello guys. I recently acquired for a mere 25 EUR a nice ASR33. Aside of needing a thorough cleaning and greasing, it seems to be pretty much working fine!? But I wouldn't write here if I wouldn't need your help:? The ASR33's carriage has a spring that gets tighter as you type. And upon CR, the spring will bring the carriage back to its original left position. There is a mechanism, similar as a piston and a cylinder, which acts as a "bumper" or stopper. My problem is that this stopper, while not showing any signs of usage, seems too tight. If the carriage is all the way to the right, the spring will be strong enough to overcome the "too tight stopper". But if only a few words were typed followed by CR, the force is not strong enough to bring the carriage to its left home-position. Of course I could take down some of the piston's diameter to overcome the problem. But this doesn't seem right.? Anyone out there also had a problem with this stopper being too tight to bring the carriage to its home position and how to overcome it?? Thanks for any advise on the issue.?Martin? From simski at dds.nl Sat Dec 27 10:15:07 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 17:15:07 +0100 Subject: ASR33 carriange stopper issue In-Reply-To: <20141227201523.4378C2073F0A@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <1214244184.1725431.1419685648764.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10643.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20141227201523.4378C2073F0A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <549EDB0B.60505@dds.nl> it could well be that the grease or oil on the side of the piston has dried and has become sticky goo. just clean well with white spirit ans apply a thin layer of thin oil. adjusting the valve hole should only be caried out starting the carriage from the far end. An alignment problem between the piston and the cylinder could also be the problem. are the ball bearings of the carriage free running? On 27-12-14 15:14, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have not seen this on my 33. There is a little valve at the end of the cylinder to let air out, try adjusting that. I can't remember if you should oil or grease the cylinder too, I am not at home to check what I did. Careful not to make the resistance too low either, it needs to be not too high or too low. > > Regards > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Martin Meiner" > Sent: ?27/?12/?2014 14:07 > To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" > Subject: ASR33 carriange stopper issue > > Hello guys. > I recently acquired for a mere 25 EUR a nice ASR33. Aside of needing a thorough cleaning and greasing, it seems to be pretty much working fine! > But I wouldn't write here if I wouldn't need your help: > The ASR33's carriage has a spring that gets tighter as you type. And upon CR, the spring will bring the carriage back to its original left position. There is a mechanism, similar as a piston and a cylinder, which acts as a "bumper" or stopper. My problem is that this stopper, while not showing any signs of usage, seems too tight. If the carriage is all the way to the right, the spring will be strong enough to overcome the "too tight stopper". But if only a few words were typed followed by CR, the force is not strong enough to bring the carriage to its left home-position. Of course I could take down some of the piston's diameter to overcome the problem. But this doesn't seem right. > Anyone out there also had a problem with this stopper being too tight to bring the carriage to its home position and how to overcome it? > Thanks for any advise on the issue. Martin > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From david at attglobal.net Sat Dec 27 13:10:26 2014 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 14:10:26 -0500 Subject: My take on the FDADAP WAS: Wooden case for DBit power In-Reply-To: <008201d020c1$26b94f40$742bedc0$@net> References: <5489B267.2050007@attglobal.net> <008201d020c1$26b94f40$742bedc0$@net> Message-ID: <549F0422.9070306@attglobal.net> On 12/25/2014 11:05 PM, Ali wrote: >> Finally feeling guilty enough about stringing a bunch of expensive >> electronic bits out on my bench whenever time came to use an 8" disk >> drive, I mounted my DBit-sourced parts and power supply into a case. > > First off merry Christmas to everyone and happy non-denominational holidays to everyone else! :) > > After seeing the above post I decided it was time I got off my rear end and finished many of these projects I have laying around the house. Guilt by association! I love it. Nice solution to having more rugged connections. It won't do for me to plug/unplug the ribbon cables all the time... From gabriele.banorri at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 11:58:50 2014 From: gabriele.banorri at gmail.com (Gabriele Banorri) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 18:58:50 +0100 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> References: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> Message-ID: <549EF35A.4000707@gmail.com> Hi! On 12/26/2014 11:38 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > Our machine seems to have intermitted problems and I think they are > caused by bad contacts in the backplane, but to be shure, a good > schematic and explanation of the workings is a tremendous help. > > Is there someone able to take a look at the originals and my > rudimentary translation and suggest improvements? My knowledge of electronics is quite basic, but I can surely take a look at your translation - I'd be glad to help restoring that lovely piece of gear :) Kind regards, Gabriele From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 27 13:12:26 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:12:26 +0000 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549EF35A.4000707@gmail.com> References: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> <549EF35A.4000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can help too, perhaps if there is a lot of material you could spread it across a few people. Is there a lot of material? Regards Rob On 27 December 2014 at 17:58, Gabriele Banorri wrote: > Hi! > > On 12/26/2014 11:38 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > >> Our machine seems to have intermitted problems and I think they are >> caused by bad contacts in the backplane, but to be shure, a good schematic >> and explanation of the workings is a tremendous help. >> >> Is there someone able to take a look at the originals and my rudimentary >> translation and suggest improvements? >> > My knowledge of electronics is quite basic, but I can surely take a look > at your translation - I'd be glad to help restoring that lovely piece of > gear :) > > Kind regards, > Gabriele > From simski at dds.nl Sat Dec 27 15:06:34 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 22:06:34 +0100 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549EF35A.4000707@gmail.com> References: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> <549EF35A.4000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <549F1F5A.7020108@dds.nl> Hi Gabriele, Alessandro has already taken up a part in the translation, but of course you could take a look: https://hack42.nl/wiki/Olivetti_Programma_101_Introduction_to_logic It turns out it's not only the translation from italian to english, but also the translation from 1965 logic to contemporary logic... simon On 27-12-14 18:58, Gabriele Banorri wrote: > Hi! > > On 12/26/2014 11:38 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> Our machine seems to have intermitted problems and I think they are >> caused by bad contacts in the backplane, but to be shure, a good >> schematic and explanation of the workings is a tremendous help. >> >> Is there someone able to take a look at the originals and my >> rudimentary translation and suggest improvements? > My knowledge of electronics is quite basic, but I can surely take a look > at your translation - I'd be glad to help restoring that lovely piece of > gear :) > > Kind regards, > Gabriele > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 15:23:47 2014 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 22:23:47 +0100 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <549F2363.4060708@gmail.com> me, if you need! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 27 21:10:17 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:10:17 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command Message-ID: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Oh well, didn't quite get it in time for Christmas. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/HP/16500/16500A/16500A_Games.zip There is an imagedisk image and extracted files from the LIF volume. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 21:39:34 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:39:34 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Oh well, didn't quite get it in time for Christmas. > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/HP/16500/16500A/16500A_Games.zip > > There is an imagedisk image and extracted files from the LIF volume. Excellent. Where did you manage to find this? I'll have to give this a try. Do you know if this only works on the 16500A, or might it also work on the B or C? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 27 21:39:47 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:39:47 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:10:17 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > Oh well, didn't quite get it in time for Christmas. > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/HP/16500/16500A/16500A_Games.zip > > There is an imagedisk image and extracted files from the LIF volume. Thanks a lot, Al!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 22:37:02 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 20:37:02 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Got them both running on my 16500A just now. First time I've powered that on in a year or two. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 27 21:33:09 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:33:09 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141227193309.0d2cd0b0@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:10:17 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > Oh well, didn't quite get it in time for Christmas. > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/HP/16500/16500A/16500A_Games.zip > > There is an imagedisk image and extracted files from the LIF volume. Thanks a lot, Al!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 28 00:08:50 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 22:08:50 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <549F9E72.8020200@jwsss.com> On 12/27/2014 8:37 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Got them both running on my 16500A just now. First time I've powered > that on in a year or two. It could dry up the $95 buck 16500A's on Fleebay. I'll have to dig mine out and see if it works or smokes, and try these. thanks Al. Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 03:07:09 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:07:09 -0200 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Links! Links to download! :D :D :D Thanks Glen :) On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 2:37 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > Got them both running on my 16500A just now. First time I've powered > that on in a year or two. > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Dec 28 09:18:57 2014 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:18:57 +0100 Subject: HP equipment, call for documentation Message-ID: Hello everybody, Santa brought me two fine pieces of HP measurement equipment (o.k., I had to order and pay for them up front...) and I'm now looking for documentation on those. 1: HP 8016A Word Generator (http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=35). This basically is a 256 bit memory with control logic and drivers that can be configured to spit out its front panel programmed contents through 1, 2, 4 or 8 outputs (with a respective word length of 256, 128, 64 or 32 bits). Trigger can be applied externally or via pushbutton, bit clock (up to 50 MC) can be internally generated or externally connected. Output levels can be set to TTL or ECL with adjustable offset, RZ or NRZ operation selected. Each output is also available negated on a separate connector, four channels have separately adjustable delays. The real surprise with this one was that it came with the IEEE-488 (HP-IB) data load option installed. I have found datasheets and the User section of the manual (Chapter 1-3) here, but this contains neither the HPIB instruction set (which I'd like to have anyway) nor the schematic and service instructions (in case I should need them - couldn't try the device out yet because I'll have to replace a broken IEC receptacle first). 2: HP 11835A Serial Data Buffer (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=665). Contains two banks of 64k x 16 bit parallel-input, serial-output data RAM, 128k x 16 bit control RAM feeding the frame control state machine, and 64k x 8 bit frequency RAM driving a parallel control output. Originally intended to provide continuous serial data streams at up to 4 MHz and control a frequency agile synthesizer (HP 8662A) for testing mobile communication devices; mine was in use at a Nokia R&D facility in Oulu, Finland, according to a sticker. This unit is usually controlled and fed with data from a microcomputer (HP 9000 Series 300 or Vectra series) through a HP 82306 GPIO interface, which I don't have. Found no documentation except for a four-page data sheet with a simplified block diagram (https://www.valuetronics.com/Manuals/HP_11835A.PDF) yet and would need at least the specification for the GPIO connector and its protocol to get anything working, plus preferably said interface card plus documentation and/or driver software. Thanks in advance for any assistance offered. Yours sincerly, Arno Kletzander From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 28 09:26:22 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:26:22 -0800 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... Message-ID: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk emails? Fortunately, my email client supports eliminating duplicates - but I'd like to know if this problem is specific to me - or are others experiencing this too??? Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 28 09:30:50 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:30:50 -0800 Subject: HP equipment, call for documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141228073050.601bbc69@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:18:57 +0100 "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > Hello everybody, > > Santa brought me two fine pieces of HP measurement equipment (o.k., I > had to order and pay for them up front...) and I'm now looking for > documentation on those. > > 1: HP 8016A Word Generator > (http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=35). This > basically is a 256 bit memory with control logic and drivers that can > be configured to spit out its front panel programmed contents through > 1, 2, 4 or 8 outputs (with a respective word length of 256, 128, 64 > or 32 bits). Trigger can be applied externally or via pushbutton, bit > clock (up to 50 MC) can be internally generated or externally > connected. Output levels can be set to TTL or ECL with adjustable > offset, RZ or NRZ operation selected. Each output is also available > negated on a separate connector, four channels have separately > adjustable delays. The real surprise with this one was that it came > with the IEEE-488 (HP-IB) data load option installed. I have found > datasheets and the User section of the manual (Chapter 1-3) here, but > this contains neither the HPIB instruction set (which I'd like to > have anyway) nor the schematic and service instructions (in case I > should need them - couldn't try the device out yet because I'll have > to replace a broken IEC receptacle first). > > 2: HP 11835A Serial Data Buffer > (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=665). Contains two banks > of 64k x 16 bit parallel-input, serial-output data RAM, 128k x 16 bit > control RAM feeding the frame control state machine, and 64k x 8 bit > frequency RAM driving a parallel control output. Originally intended > to provide continuous serial data streams at up to 4 MHz and control > a frequency agile synthesizer (HP 8662A) for testing mobile > communication devices; mine was in use at a Nokia R&D facility in > Oulu, Finland, according to a sticker. This unit is usually > controlled and fed with data from a microcomputer (HP 9000 Series 300 > or Vectra series) through a HP 82306 GPIO interface, which I don't > have. Found no documentation except for a four-page data sheet with a > simplified block diagram > (https://www.valuetronics.com/Manuals/HP_11835A.PDF) yet and would > need at least the specification for the GPIO connector and its > protocol to get anything working, plus preferably said interface card > plus documentation and/or driver software. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance offered. You may get more response from this list: The group "hp_agilent_equipment" at yahoogroups.com Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From js at cimmeri.com Sun Dec 28 10:07:04 2014 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 11:07:04 -0500 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... In-Reply-To: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54A02AA8.3030608@cimmeri.com> I get two of everything also. On 12/28/2014 10:26 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk > emails? > > Fortunately, my email client supports eliminating duplicates - but I'd > like to know if this problem is specific to me - or are others > experiencing this too??? > > Lyle > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 28 04:00:48 2014 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 10:00:48 +0000 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549F2363.4060708@gmail.com> References: <549F2363.4060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <549FD4D0.90801@ntlworld.com> On 27/12/14 21:23, shadoooo wrote: > me, if you need! > I can help too. Antonio From simski at dds.nl Sun Dec 28 04:29:16 2014 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 11:29:16 +0100 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: References: <549DE380.8000401@drukknop.nl> <549EF35A.4000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <549FDB7C.9050705@dds.nl> well, about 8 documents. the first one, " is nearly finished but there remains a rather big one: "P101 Descrizione Tecnico Funzionale r.1.0.pdf" with explenations about the workings of the electronical calculator. unfortunately, i've locked myself out of the hack42 wiki at the moment, so that has to wait until i'm home again from my little trip later today. simon On 27-12-14 20:12, Jarratt RMA wrote: > I can help too, perhaps if there is a lot of material you could spread it > across a few people. Is there a lot of material? > > Regards > > Rob > > On 27 December 2014 at 17:58, Gabriele Banorri > wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> On 12/26/2014 11:38 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> >>> Our machine seems to have intermitted problems and I think they are >>> caused by bad contacts in the backplane, but to be shure, a good schematic >>> and explanation of the workings is a tremendous help. >>> >>> Is there someone able to take a look at the originals and my rudimentary >>> translation and suggest improvements? >>> >> My knowledge of electronics is quite basic, but I can surely take a look >> at your translation - I'd be glad to help restoring that lovely piece of >> gear :) >> >> Kind regards, >> Gabriele >> > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From billdeg at buzz1.com Sun Dec 28 08:51:29 2014 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 09:51:29 -0500 Subject: ASR33 carriange stopper issue Message-ID: <4a4dbd2$ca5e13e$63fa007f$@buzz1.com> > .. it could well be that the grease or oil on the side of the piston has dried and has become sticky goo. just clean well with white spirit ans apply a thin layer of thin oil. adjusting the valve hole should only be caried out starting the carriage from the far end. > An alignment problem between the piston and the cylinder could also be the problem. are the ball bearings of the carriage free running? My $.02 Alignment is the first thing to check here. You can clean and check airflow of the piston into the cup, but be careful about what grease (?) you use. I'd just clean and make sure there is no debris in there only. If alignment fixes the problem you probably don't need to do anything else. Use a nut driver to loosen the nut screws and carefully move the printer and/or belt return a few millimeters at a time until you get the result you're looking for. Clean the return spring (with something underneath to catch any debris) if it's really gunked up with old oil. Don't use pliers to open the nut screws, the investment in a nut driver is very worth it. b From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 28 09:50:01 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:50:01 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A026A9.1020409@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/14 7:39 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Excellent. Where did you manage to find this? > From a friend who worked at HP. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 28 09:50:39 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:50:39 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54A026CF.7050702@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/14 8:37 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Got them both running on my 16500A just now. First time I've powered > that on in a year or two. > > Could you take some screen shots? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 28 09:55:58 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:55:58 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <549F9E72.8020200@jwsss.com> References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> <549F9E72.8020200@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54A0280E.8060800@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/14 10:08 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 12/27/2014 8:37 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Got them both running on my 16500A just now. First time I've powered >> that on in a year or two. > It could dry up the $95 buck 16500A's on Fleebay. > Esp since it doesn't require any analyzer modules. Also, if someone has one, I'm interested in getting a first-generation 500A CPU card (the one with DIP DRAMs) since I'd like to get a good picture of it. All three of the pictures on bitsavers right now came from Martin Jones/ Glen. http://martin-jones.com/2013/01/15/hp-16500a-memory-upgrade-part-1/ From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 28 11:06:54 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 18:06:54 +0100 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... In-Reply-To: <54A02AA8.3030608@cimmeri.com> References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> <54A02AA8.3030608@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20141228170654.GA56979@beast.freibergnet.de> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > I get two of everything also. > > On 12/28/2014 10:26 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk > >emails? > > > >Fortunately, my email client supports eliminating duplicates - but I'd > >like to know if this problem is specific to me - or are others > >experiencing this too??? > > > >Lyle > > The same here. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 28 13:00:21 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 11:00:21 -0800 Subject: ISO Applied Microsystems EL 1600 Emulator Documentation Message-ID: <54A05345.4050507@bitsavers.org> In the early 90's Applied Microsystems updated their 16 bit emulators with a 68020 processor and ethernet. The original had a 6809 as the emulation processor. There is almost nothing about these on the net, there was apparently a EL 3200 version which supported Intel. This may have been a short lived product since they switched to BLM and other serial products around then. Main interest is I discovered I have one, most of my AMC boxes are ES 1800 (serial 6809) and wanted to try to use it. It's possible they switched to some proprietary undocumented protocol on the other hand. Their product part numbering is cryptic, to say the least. I have two units that look indentical on the outside (later plastic cases with the carrying handle) and the emulation processors in them are 6809 in one (the Z8001 one) and 68xxx in the other (the 68000 one, pn. 750-01600-00). Looking on eBay, it appears the 32 bit units are pn 750-13200-xx http://www.ebay.com/itm/271314972572 for example From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Dec 28 13:08:50 2014 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 14:08:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... In-Reply-To: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2014, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk > emails? > > Fortunately, my email client supports eliminating duplicates - but I'd > like to know if this problem is specific to me - or are others > experiencing this too??? Same, here. I have never subscribed to cctech, only cctalk. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 28 14:35:18 2014 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:35:18 -0000 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <00e101d022de$a202c900$85bf190a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2014 3:26 PM Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... > Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk > emails? > > Fortunately, my email client supports eliminating duplicates - but I'd > like to know if this problem is specific to me - or are others > experiencing this too??? > No Lyle, you are not the only one. See similar topics raised in November and December 2014 archives on CCtalk. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 10:20:22 2014 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 14:20:22 -0200 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <54A0280E.8060800@bitsavers.org> References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> <549F9E72.8020200@jwsss.com> <54A0280E.8060800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have it! But it is in my mother's house. How soon you need it? enviado do meu telemovel Em 28/12/2014 13:56, "Al Kossow" escreveu: > On 12/27/14 10:08 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> On 12/27/2014 8:37 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >>> Got them both running on my 16500A just now. First time I've powered >>> that on in a year or two. >>> >> It could dry up the $95 buck 16500A's on Fleebay. >> >> > Esp since it doesn't require any analyzer modules. > > Also, if someone has one, I'm interested in getting a first-generation > 500A CPU > card (the one with DIP DRAMs) since I'd like to get a good picture of it. > All three of the pictures on bitsavers right now came from Martin Jones/ > Glen. > > http://martin-jones.com/2013/01/15/hp-16500a-memory-upgrade-part-1/ > > > > From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Dec 28 11:53:36 2014 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 12:53:36 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4014 optional communications Message-ID: <201412281753.sBSHraHx022015@hugin2.pdp8online.com> I'm trying to get my 4014 working and am having trouble with the optional data communcations board. I'm not positive if its a later version of 021-0074-00 (070-1379-00) or a different option. It is identifiable by the control plate on the back has thumb switches that display the baud rate instead of a rotary switch. Does anybody have one of these who can tell me what settings and jumpers work for them or have the manual for this interface? My board is labeled 670-4758-00 JB-5337-00 Opt Data Comm With various settings I can get it to do nothing, send some characters properly and some wrong only while local echoing, and receive but not send. From abs at absd.org Sun Dec 28 15:56:18 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:56:18 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? Message-ID: Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. On the offchance, would anyone know of a little DECstation which might appreciate a new lease of life as a development box? :) Bj?rn is in Sweden, but I've heard that for the appropriate remuneration there are companies which will transport computers across oceans in (relative) safety :-p David From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 28 18:20:47 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 01:20:47 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A09E5F.5080501@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-28 22:56, David Brownlee wrote: > Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > > He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > > On the offchance, would anyone know of a little DECstation which might > appreciate a new lease of life as a development box? :) > > Bj?rn is in Sweden, but I've heard that for the appropriate > remuneration there are companies which will transport computers across > oceans in (relative) safety :-p If he hasn't got anything before august, I might help out from Stockholm... But I would expect there are a bunch of people around who could help. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 28 18:31:46 2014 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:31:46 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: > Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > > He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 28 17:51:54 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 15:51:54 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> <20141227193947.03780b50@asrock.bcwi.net> <549F9E72.8020200@jwsss.com> <54A0280E.8060800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A0979A.2080002@bitsavers.org> On 12/28/14 8:20 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I have it! But it is in my mother's house. How soon you need it? > No rush. I would just like to get a high resolution picture of it. From shadowm at lyonlabs.org Sun Dec 28 17:49:16 2014 From: shadowm at lyonlabs.org (Glenn Holmer) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:49:16 -0600 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... In-Reply-To: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54A096FC.2050009@lyonlabs.org> On 12/28/2014 09:26 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk > emails? No, it happens to me as well. How to solve it? The earlier discussion didn't seem conclusive. -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe." From evan at snarc.net Sun Dec 28 20:32:09 2014 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:32:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8fest @ VCF East? Message-ID: <54A0BD29.2090608@snarc.net> Here's something you do not see every day. There are four people interested in bringing a variant of PDP-8 to VCF East next spring (April 17-19). On the PDP-8 front, so far only David Gesswein is registered; others will be soon. It would be very cool if there were LOTS of PDP-8 computers at the show, in honor of the original Straight-8's 50th anniversary. (We invited Gordon Bell, who said he's unable to attend that weekend. Darn.) So: if you've got a PDP-8 of any flavor, and you've always dreamed of showing it off and/or attending a VCF, now's your chance. Paging all the California and Boston people!!!! :) Overall exhibits so far are here: http://www.vintage.org/2015/east/exhibit.php -- we're expecting 30 or so by April. There will also be a dozen or more technical classes on Friday, April 17. So far only one is posted, but we've got most of the others almost determined, and those will be posted soon. Keynoters for the weekend are Ted Nelson (Saturday) and Bob Frankston (Sunday). From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sun Dec 28 20:46:03 2014 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 18:46:03 -0800 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... In-Reply-To: <54A096FC.2050009@lyonlabs.org> References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> <54A096FC.2050009@lyonlabs.org> Message-ID: <73D72C7C-2D1C-453F-B178-01F6F41A2B0B@orthanc.ca> On Dec 28, 2014, at 3:49 PM, Glenn Holmer wrote: > On 12/28/2014 09:26 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk >> emails? > > No, it happens to me as well. How to solve it? The earlier discussion > didn't seem conclusive. Have you tried the unsubscribe/resubscribe dance? I was having similar problems a few weeks back, and that cured it. Make sure to unsubscribe from all of the lists, even if you don't think you are subscribed to them, then resubscribe to the ones you want to be on. --lyndon From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 00:10:58 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 00:10:58 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/M restoration project In-Reply-To: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1419288272.5714.YahooMailBasic@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Brian, How many of the H851s do you need? Where are you located? Can you call me some afternoon or night this week? till 11PM Chicago time is fine. Thanks, Paul 217-586-5331 On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > For any of you who are on more than one of these lists, I apologize > in advance for your getting multiple copies of this. > > Now that I'm moved into the new place and the man cave (my basement) > is converging on a usable state and in recognition of the upcoming 50th > anniversary of the introduction of the PDP-8, I'm about to embark on a > project to restore a PDP-8/M I got a while back. Unfortunately, this one > is somewhat incomplete.. So I'm looking to start collecting some of the > bits I'll need before it's all said and done. The items I need are in > descending > order of priority: > > KK8E M8320 Bus load module > KL8E M8650 Async module > H851 Inter-module jumper blocks for the CPU boards > Memory > Storage device and controller > Power switch key > One front panel switch paddle > > If you have any of those that you're looking to unload (especially > the M8320 or the M8650), let me know. > > Obviously, I can live without the switch paddle and I should be able to > get a new key cut, but if anyone has extras lying around, I promise to > give them a good home. The truth is I don't expect to come up with > memory or storage devices for what I can justify spending. However, > it turns out I do have an Omnibus prototype board. So I'm planning > to use that to build a device to emulate a set of RK05s using an SD > card for storage, and if need be, I can put memory on there too. > > Thanks in advance, > BLS > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 29 03:15:38 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:15:38 +0100 Subject: Multiple copies (Duplicates or more)... In-Reply-To: <54A096FC.2050009@lyonlabs.org> References: <20141228072622.00c84ca6@asrock.bcwi.net> <54A096FC.2050009@lyonlabs.org> Message-ID: <20141229091538.GA26501@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 05:49:16PM -0600, Glenn Holmer wrote: > On 12/28/2014 09:26 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Am I the only one getting multiple copies (duplicates or more) of cctalk > > emails? > > No, it happens to me as well. How to solve it? The earlier discussion > didn't seem conclusive. It seems that mail sent to cctech gets duplicated but not mauls sent to cctalk. Jay, the listowner, knows about it and has asked for help to solve it. It's a configuration issue on the server. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 29 03:18:31 2014 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:18:31 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20141229091831.GB26501@Update.UU.SE> Contact me offlist. I'm in sweden to. /P On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 09:56:18PM +0000, David Brownlee wrote: > Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > > He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > > On the offchance, would anyone know of a little DECstation which might > appreciate a new lease of life as a development box? :) > > Bj?rn is in Sweden, but I've heard that for the appropriate > remuneration there are companies which will transport computers across > oceans in (relative) safety :-p > > David From abs at absd.org Mon Dec 29 05:30:34 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 11:30:34 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: >> >> Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard >> code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the >> VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). >> >> He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation >> X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > > which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? > There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, > from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to support whatever is available. If someone has a spare high end TURBOChannel framebuffer and a machine to match (less likely I think) then the go-to guy for interesting NetBSD display drivers would be USA based Michael Lorenz (accelerated anti-aliased sparc console fonts anyone?) He is currently working on a NetBSD port for the new MIPS Creator CI20 reference platform, so is at least already in MIPS land :) David From cruff at ruffspot.net Mon Dec 29 07:12:19 2014 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 06:12:19 -0700 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:55:58 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > > Also, if someone has one, I'm interested in getting a first-generation 500A CPU > card (the one with DIP DRAMs) since I'd like to get a good picture of it. I have one also from my 16500C upgrade, if you need one. From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Dec 29 10:57:42 2014 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:57:42 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20141226) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I said this one is seeming easy and I meant it. If you look at the photo on Wikipedia Desktop Straight 8 You can count on the horizontal lines of bulbs labeled: Program Counter 18 Memory Address 12 Memory Buffer 12 Accumulator 13 Multiplier Quotient 12 On the right side there are two vertical rows of bulbs labeled as follows: AND FETCH TAD EXECUTE ISZ DEFER DCA BREAK JMS JMP ION IOT PAUSE OPR RUN This gives 82. However there is a secret bulb in the space between the BREAK lamp and the ION lamp below it. There is a hole in the fiberboard mask for the bulb, the driver transistor and resistor are on the lamp board, the bulb was in place on my machine and there is a wire running to the backplane connected to it. But there is no way to see it if it ever turned on with the glass face plate in place as the silkscreen over the bulb position is opaque. Based on this I would say that the actual count is 83 but 82 are useful. One of these days I will trace the wire to see where it is cabled into the back plane. It does not show on the schematics I have looked at. I stole that bulb at one point to use as a replacement for a burned out one. At the moment I have three early vintage white LED's in the front panel of my machine. These LED's are a cool blue white light and look out of place for a couple of reasons. In addition to the color, they are on dimly whenever the machine is running. Cross talk in the wires is enough to trigger an LED. They also turn on and off too quickly. I calibrated the brightness at just under a ma as being the correct brightness. The original bulbs draw about 30 ma when on. Anyone who has ever taken apart the front panel of a straight 8 knows that it is such a pain to replace bulbs that I have decided the next time to just replace all of them with an LED, two resistors and a capacitor to somewhat simulate the delays and persistence of a filament bulb. I may even use a soft white LED and a yellow LED in order to get better color temperatures but this will take too much room. One of my friends says this would be sacrilege and I should only use filament bulbs. Of course he also says it would be OK to use a tri-color LED and a microprocessor for each bulb to generate the correct color temps and delays. Seems like too much work to me. The next trivia question will be next year so Happy New Year everyone! Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 (Running OS/8 from DECTape) On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > This one is seemingly easy. > > > On the front panel of the original PDP-8 (straight 8), how many lights are > there? > > > There is a pretty good picture of one on Wikipedia if you feel like > sneaking a peek. > > > > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 S/N 1175 > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 29 11:24:37 2014 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:24:37 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> Perhaps Martin Jones will give rights to the photos on this page? Jim http://martin-jones.com/category/hp-16500ab/ While I'm sending, this has the rom images someone shared. Referenced from martin's page above. http://www.jammarcade.net/firmware/ http://www.jammarcade.net/files/Equip/HP16500A%20ROMs.zip On 12/29/2014 5:12 AM, Craig Ruff wrote: > On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:55:58 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: >> Also, if someone has one, I'm interested in getting a first-generation 500A CPU >> card (the one with DIP DRAMs) since I'd like to get a good picture of it. > I have one also from my 16500C upgrade, if you need one. > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 12:27:01 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:27:01 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:24 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > Perhaps Martin Jones will give rights to the photos on this page? > > Jim > > http://martin-jones.com/category/hp-16500ab/ > I did the 16500-66507 and 16500-66510 CPU board scans there at 300dpi. The original scans were 4800x3000. I could rescan those at a higher resolution if anyone wanted that. I think my Microtek 9800XL is supposed to do up to 1600dpi. I don't have an example of the 16500-66503 1MB CPU board myself to scan. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 29 12:50:52 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:50:52 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> On 12/29/14 10:27 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:24 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >> Perhaps Martin Jones will give rights to the photos on this page? >> >> Jim >> >> http://martin-jones.com/category/hp-16500ab/ >> > > I did the 16500-66507 and 16500-66510 CPU board scans there at 300dpi. > The original scans were 4800x3000. I could rescan those at a higher > resolution if anyone wanted that. I think my Microtek 9800XL is > supposed to do up to 1600dpi. > > I don't have an example of the 16500-66503 1MB CPU board myself to scan. > > I only need to borrow the 16500-66503, if someone happens to have one in the Bay Area. I spent some time over the weekend experimenting with shooting pictures of boards, so there are a bunch of new images in various places on bitsavers. Getting good images is actually quite difficult. You want a lot of light to get decent depth of field on boards, but too much and you get glare off the solder mask. and shiny surfaces. There is one picture I'm particularly proud of http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/appliedMicrosystems/photos/ES_1800/Z8000_Cage_B2.jpg From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 29 13:01:09 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 11:01:09 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A1A4F5.4070700@bitsavers.org> > I think my Microtek 9800XL is >> supposed to do up to 1600dpi. > Using a scanner works quite well if you don't need much depth of field. You do have to be very careful not to scratch the glass, which is very easy to do. I just had to replace it on the Epson Perfection that I use for manual covers from scanning boards on it. From scaron at umich.edu Mon Dec 29 13:38:43 2014 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 14:38:43 -0500 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <54A1A4F5.4070700@bitsavers.org> References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> <54A1A4F5.4070700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yeah, I know how hard it can be to get pictures of boards, enclosures, etc. I suggested scanning because I heard that's how the folks who put together the Q-bus Visual Field Guide did it and I feel they had pretty good results... Given optimal conditions you can get nice results with a good camera. I had a friend of mine shoot my ROLM CBX boards with a Canon 5D at maybe 30-40 degrees off vertical with them sitting on a piece of plywood under direct sunlight (outside in the middle of summer) and I was very pleased with how it turned out (see: http://wildflower.diablonet.net/~scaron/rolmfieldguide/index.html) I never really had good luck with the camera indoors under artificial lighting though, although I don't have much in the way of professional lighting gear... I was always trying to just shoot under standard fluorescent shop lights... I find it hard to get that balance in contrast, where no part of the board is too dark, without annoying glint, shine or reflections on other bits of the board. The one I have is a 66503 Rev B board with 8x TMS44C256 DIP RAMs... As I say, I'm only good for 600 DPI or so but I'm happy to scan the one I've got. If you were local I'd just give it to you. Best, Sean On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I think my Microtek 9800XL is >> >>> supposed to do up to 1600dpi. >>> >> >> > Using a scanner works quite well if you don't need much depth of field. > You do have to be very careful not to scratch the glass, which is very > easy to do. I just had to replace it on the Epson Perfection that I use > for manual covers from scanning boards on it. > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 29 13:45:14 2014 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 14:45:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Physical Book Prices Message-ID: <20141229194514.DDB3918C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Dickman > a book that was pure computer geek porn: "Core Memory" by Mark Richards > & John Alderman. ... I went looking on Amazon for it. The price is $172 > for a new hardcover and $78 for a used hardcover. > This is ridiculous. For anyone who wants a copy, I just ran across a copy on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161534172515 going for a more reasonable amount ($29, no bids at the moment). The sale ends today (8:15PM EST). Noel From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 14:20:48 2014 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 14:20:48 -0600 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2014 9:39 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > I'll have to give this a try. Do you know if this only works on the > 16500A, or might it also work on the B or C? I didn't see a response to Glen's question. I have a 16500B; will it work on that as well? Thanks, Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 29 14:35:04 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:35:04 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> <54A1A4F5.4070700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A1BAF8.50304@bitsavers.org> On 12/29/14 11:38 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > The one I have is a 66503 Rev B board with 8x TMS44C256 DIP RAMs... As I > say, I'm only good for 600 DPI or so but I'm happy to scan the one I've > got. If you were local I'd just give it to you. > That would be fine. Actually 300 DPI off a scanner would do. The only problem that you'll have is good focus on the top side because of the face plate and connectors. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 29 14:38:12 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:38:12 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A1BBB4.2020309@bitsavers.org> On 12/29/14 12:20 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I didn't see a response to Glen's question. I have a 16500B; will it work > on that as well? > You could try it, but I don't think so, maybe due to the differences in the frame buffer or the processor. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 29 15:41:54 2014 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 13:41:54 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141229134154.70646453@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 14:20:48 -0600 Kyle Owen wrote: > On Dec 27, 2014 9:39 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > > > I'll have to give this a try. Do you know if this only works on the > > 16500A, or might it also work on the B or C? > > I didn't see a response to Glen's question. I have a 16500B; will it > work on that as well? I tried it in my 16500B and it did NOT work. It would not boot the 16500A software - nor load the games. It does "see" the files properly, but states they are not compatible. I even tried substituting the 16500A system with the 16500B system on the floppy diskette - and then the system would boot from the floppy - but again, states that the games are not compatible. Anyone else have any luck with the games on a 16500B/C? Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 14:42:10 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:42:10 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: References: <549F7499.2050107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2014 12:20 PM, "Kyle Owen" wrote: > > I didn't see a response to Glen's question. I have a 16500B; will it work > on that as well? > The disk image contains a 16500A SYSTEM_ file and two option files (similar to the way the E2450A Symbol Utility loads), one option file for Breakout and another for Missile Command. The SYSTEM_ file is the same size as a v01.00 version I have on a standard 16500A system disk but does not completely binary compare. I didn't try swapping the SYSTEM_ version to see if a standard version still works with the game options on a 16500A. I tried copying the option files to the System directory on a 16500C but the game options aren't loaded on boot as they are on a 16500A. I expect it wouldn't work on a 16500B either but haven't bothered trying that yet. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 30 11:02:18 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 17:02:18 +0000 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549FD4D0.90801@ntlworld.com> References: <549F2363.4060708@gmail.com> <549FD4D0.90801@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Simon, I am not clear where to find the documents that still need translating. As for the big one, I suggest that it is split into sections to make each bit more manageable for individual contributors. Regards Rob On 28 December 2014 at 10:00, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 27/12/14 21:23, shadoooo wrote: > >> me, if you need! >> >> I can help too. > > Antonio > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 30 11:02:18 2014 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 17:02:18 +0000 Subject: Italians around? In-Reply-To: <549FD4D0.90801@ntlworld.com> References: <549F2363.4060708@gmail.com> <549FD4D0.90801@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Simon, I am not clear where to find the documents that still need translating. As for the big one, I suggest that it is split into sections to make each bit more manageable for individual contributors. Regards Rob On 28 December 2014 at 10:00, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 27/12/14 21:23, shadoooo wrote: > >> me, if you need! >> >> I can help too. > > Antonio > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 30 17:48:54 2014 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:48:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20141230154448.N22473@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Dec 2014, Al Kossow wrote: > I spent some time over the weekend experimenting with shooting pictures of > boards, so there are a bunch of new images in various places on bitsavers. > Getting good images is actually quite difficult. You want a lot of light > to get decent depth of field on boards, but too much and you get glare off > the solder mask. and shiny surfaces. Have you tried tent lighting? There are cheap light tents on eBay ($21 for 20") It will make make the lighting so flat that you will get little or no glare. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 30 20:52:56 2014 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 18:52:56 -0800 Subject: HP 16500A Breakout and Missile Command In-Reply-To: <20141230154448.N22473@shell.lmi.net> References: <6AD1BEF3-0B43-4E2E-87E2-647E61EF1D68@ruffspot.net> <54A18E55.3080207@jwsss.com> <54A1A28C.8010704@bitsavers.org> <20141230154448.N22473@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <54A36508.3060407@bitsavers.org> On 12/30/14 3:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Have you tried tent lighting? > Yes. I may need more light or a camera with a faster CCD. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 31 04:40:21 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 11:40:21 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> David Brownlee wrote: > On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: > >> > >> Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > >> code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > >> VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > >> > >> He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > >> X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > > > > which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? > > There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, > > from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... > > My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 > with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to > support whatever is available. > At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 31 04:47:55 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 11:47:55 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-31 11:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: > David Brownlee wrote: > >> On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: >>>> >>>> Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard >>>> code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the >>>> VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). >>>> >>>> He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation >>>> X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. >>> >>> which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? >>> There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, >>> from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... >> >> My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 >> with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to >> support whatever is available. >> > > At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx > a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I > think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. Uh... Holm... He was talking about a DECstation 2100 or 3100 here... Not a VAXstation. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 31 06:12:13 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 13:12:13 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20141231121213.GB65106@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-31 11:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >David Brownlee wrote: > > > >>On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >>>On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: > >>>> > >>>>Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > >>>>code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > >>>>VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > >>>> > >>>>He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > >>>>X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > >>> > >>>which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? > >>>There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, > >>>from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... > >> > >>My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 > >>with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to > >>support whatever is available. > >> > > > >At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx > >a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I > >think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. > > Uh... Holm... He was talking about a DECstation 2100 or 3100 here... Not > a VAXstation. :-) > Yes Johnny, I've realized that, but a few line above the VAXstations are mentioned. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From abs at absd.org Wed Dec 31 07:04:48 2014 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 13:04:48 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: <20141231121213.GB65106@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> <20141231121213.GB65106@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 31 December 2014 at 12:12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-12-31 11:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >David Brownlee wrote: >> > >> >>On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >>>On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard >> >>>>code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the >> >>>>VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). >> >>>> >> >>>>He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation >> >>>>X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. >> >>> >> >>>which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? >> >>>There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, >> >>>from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... >> >> >> >>My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 >> >>with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to >> >>support whatever is available. >> >> >> > >> >At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx >> >a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I >> >think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. >> >> Uh... Holm... He was talking about a DECstation 2100 or 3100 here... Not >> a VAXstation. :-) >> > > Yes Johnny, I've realized that, but a few line above the VAXstations are > mentioned. I think Martin must have heard you reading the email when it arrived :) Yesterday he submitted a bug report (with presumably temporary workaround) for an NCR5380 DMA issue, which I think affects the VAXstation 3100 models... :) http://gnats.netbsd.org/cgi-bin/query-pr-single.pl?number=49517 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 31 07:49:49 2014 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 14:49:49 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> <20141231121213.GB65106@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20141231134949.GA15574@beast.freibergnet.de> David Brownlee wrote: > On 31 December 2014 at 12:12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > >> On 2014-12-31 11:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> >David Brownlee wrote: > >> > > >> >>On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> >>>On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>>Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > >> >>>>code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > >> >>>>VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > >> >>>> > >> >>>>He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > >> >>>>X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > >> >>> > >> >>>which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? > >> >>>There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, > >> >>>from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... > >> >> > >> >>My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 > >> >>with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to > >> >>support whatever is available. > >> >> > >> > > >> >At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx > >> >a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I > >> >think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. > >> > >> Uh... Holm... He was talking about a DECstation 2100 or 3100 here... Not > >> a VAXstation. :-) > >> > > > > Yes Johnny, I've realized that, but a few line above the VAXstations are > > mentioned. > > I think Martin must have heard you reading the email when it arrived :) > > Yesterday he submitted a bug report (with presumably temporary > workaround) for an NCR5380 DMA issue, which I think affects the > VAXstation 3100 models... :) > > http://gnats.netbsd.org/cgi-bin/query-pr-single.pl?number=49517 Oha, there seems some light at the end of the tunnel, hope that's not a train .... At least the cause of that ugly behavior is found now. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rictech at mail.com Wed Dec 31 13:24:04 2014 From: rictech at mail.com (Rick) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 14:24:04 -0500 Subject: Zorba computer In-Reply-To: <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <24F338C7-13C7-47F5-9699-B9DB3404BC0C@mail.com> I just received a working Zorba CP/M computer, with no software. Does anyone have copies of the system disks? Would anyone be willing to make me a copy set of these disks? I would more than happy to pay for the disks and shipping. It would be wonderful to see the old computer up and running again. Regards, Ricky NOTE: This electronic transmission (and/or the documents accompanying it) may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510 and 2521 and may be legally privileged. This message (and associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential. This information contains research and personal and professional experiences of the sender. It is not intended as a substitute for consulting with a physician or other healthcare provider. Any attempt to diagnose and treat an illness should be done under the direction of a healthcare professional. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, immediately destroy the original message. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free, no responsibility is accepted by the sender. > On Dec 31, 2014, at 5:47 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-12-31 11:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> David Brownlee wrote: >> >>>> On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>>>> On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard >>>>> code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the >>>>> VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). >>>>> >>>>> He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation >>>>> X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. >>>> >>>> which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? >>>> There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, >>>> from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... >>> >>> My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 >>> with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to >>> support whatever is available. >> >> At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx >> a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I >> think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. > > Uh... Holm... He was talking about a DECstation 2100 or 3100 here... Not a VAXstation. :-) > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 31 13:30:44 2014 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 19:30:44 +0000 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question Message-ID: Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 spare head? -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 13:43:04 2014 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 11:43:04 -0800 Subject: Zorba computer In-Reply-To: <24F338C7-13C7-47F5-9699-B9DB3404BC0C@mail.com> References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> <24F338C7-13C7-47F5-9699-B9DB3404BC0C@mail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Rick wrote: > I just received a working Zorba CP/M computer, with no software. Does anyone have copies of the system disks? Would anyone be willing to make me a copy set of these disks? I would more than happy to pay for the disks and shipping. It would be wonderful to see the old computer up and running again. > Regards, > Ricky http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Software Archives -> System / Install disks -> Zorba system disks ZORBA1.IMD IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:16:41 Zorba Personal Computer System Disk (BIOS version 1.7)A CP/M 2.2 CP2-865-04553 CBASIC CBA-865-04553 Copyright 1981 by Digital Research, Inc. ZORBA2.IMD IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:21:24 Zorba Personal Computer Modular Micros, Inc. Source Disk (BIOS version 1.7)A ZORBA3.IMD IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:24:53 MicroPro DATASTAR VER. 1.41 REPORTSTAR VER. 1.02 D79432VZ ZORBA4.IMD IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:27:28 MicroPro WORDSTAR VER. 3.0 MAILMERGE VER. 3.0 CALCSTAR VER. 1.2 XX71024P ZORBA5.IMD IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:30:07 Zorba Misc. Utilities From roeapeterson at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 15:58:00 2014 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 15:58:00 -0600 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a guess, something is either twice as small, or there twice as many of them. Either way, I could really use both -:) > On Dec 31, 2014, at 1:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > > Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... > > How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 spare head? > > -tony > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 16:45:53 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 16:45:53 -0600 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The color of the dot on it. On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 1:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... > > How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 > spare head? > > -tony > > From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Dec 31 17:28:01 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 17:28:01 -0600 Subject: RDI laptop for sale (commercial listing) Message-ID: <20141231232801.GA12452@lonesome.com> So I triaged this unit the other day and now my company has listed it on eBay. It didn't come with the power brick so we couldn't test it; if you have one of these with its brick and need a spare, this is for you :-) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rdi-Ultrabook-Sun-167MHz-or-200MHz-UltraSPARC1-256MB-NoHDD-12-1-Laptop-/191467056374?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item2c94536cf6 mcl From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 31 17:36:52 2014 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 00:36:52 +0100 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> On 2014-12-31 20:30, tony duell wrote: > Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... > > How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 spare head? I wasn't even aware that there were any differences. But I guess there are, as you ask. It's been close to 30 years since I touched an RK05F... But the disk being fixed was the thing I knew. Is the optical thingy that tells the head movement a part of the head? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From Rictech at mail.com Wed Dec 31 18:23:46 2014 From: Rictech at mail.com (Rick Wilbur) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 19:23:46 -0500 Subject: Zorba computer In-Reply-To: References: <54A0A0F2.4090703@e-bbes.com> <20141231104021.GA65106@beast.freibergnet.de> <54A3D45B.4080307@update.uu.se> <24F338C7-13C7-47F5-9699-B9DB3404BC0C@mail.com> Message-ID: <7E777CA5-4540-4CAD-8A18-FE469CEBF8D7@mail.com> Thanks for the information, I have never tried to make 5 1/4" system disks from a image file. I have a older 386 with a 5 1/4" that should work for doing this. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:43 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Rick wrote: >> I just received a working Zorba CP/M computer, with no software. Does anyone have copies of the system disks? Would anyone be willing to make me a copy set of these disks? I would more than happy to pay for the disks and shipping. It would be wonderful to see the old computer up and running again. >> Regards, >> Ricky > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > > Software Archives -> System / Install disks -> Zorba system disks > > ZORBA1.IMD > > IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:16:41 > Zorba Personal Computer > System Disk (BIOS version 1.7)A > CP/M 2.2 CP2-865-04553 > CBASIC CBA-865-04553 > Copyright 1981 by Digital Research, Inc. > > > ZORBA2.IMD > > IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:21:24 > Zorba Personal Computer > Modular Micros, Inc. > Source Disk (BIOS version 1.7)A > > > ZORBA3.IMD > > IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:24:53 > MicroPro > DATASTAR VER. 1.41 > REPORTSTAR VER. 1.02 > D79432VZ > > > ZORBA4.IMD > > IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:27:28 > MicroPro > WORDSTAR VER. 3.0 > MAILMERGE VER. 3.0 > CALCSTAR VER. 1.2 > XX71024P > > > ZORBA5.IMD > > IMD 1.01: 3/08/2005 11:30:07 > Zorba > Misc. Utilities From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 31 19:07:49 2014 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 02:07:49 +0100 Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: <62f2cc1a1318a56d9f6e6d668cfa5f8d@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Everybody a happy 2015 and fruitful new year, with a lot classic computing. -Rik From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 31 20:43:38 2014 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 19:43:38 -0700 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <62f2cc1a1318a56d9f6e6d668cfa5f8d@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> References: <62f2cc1a1318a56d9f6e6d668cfa5f8d@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: <54A4B45A.2060106@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/31/2014 6:07 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Everybody a happy 2015 and fruitful new year, with a lot classic computing. Quit pushing 6502 and 68000 computers. > -Rik Ben. From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Dec 31 20:46:04 2014 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 20:46:04 -0600 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <54A4B45A.2060106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <62f2cc1a1318a56d9f6e6d668cfa5f8d@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> <54A4B45A.2060106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20150101024604.GA16620@lonesome.com> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 07:43:38PM -0700, ben wrote: > On 12/31/2014 6:07 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > >Everybody a happy 2015 and fruitful new year, with a lot classic computing. > > Quit pushing 6502 and 68000 computers. Yeah! Let's get some Fairchild F8 action going instead! :-) mcl From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 20:29:32 2014 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 18:29:32 -0800 Subject: DECWriter Shelving Available - FCFS Message-ID: Free shelving used to store 4 DECWriters available for pick-up in Menlo Park, CA 94025. Can be used for other items. Plywood on rollers. Dimensions are 31"x53"x84" Available to first to pick-up. Send me note off-list via lee_courtney (at) acm (dot) org Picture at https://flic.kr/p/qC5rU4 -- Lee Courtney From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 22:00:54 2014 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 22:00:54 -0600 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> References: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> Message-ID: The differences are the door, which doesn't really mater, the heads, the linear positional, and reformat the pack. most regular packs can be reformatted. There are 2 boards from the A which are interchangeable with the F (most of the newer drives have them), and they have a few dip switches that need to be changed. Another neat option which i don't remember the part #, if the RK05 front panel with the TU56 type rotary switches to change the drive ID # on the fly. I think I kept a few for myself. On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2014-12-31 20:30, tony duell wrote: > >> Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... >> >> How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 >> spare head? >> > > I wasn't even aware that there were any differences. But I guess there > are, as you ask. > It's been close to 30 years since I touched an RK05F... > > But the disk being fixed was the thing I knew. Is the optical thingy that > tells the head movement a part of the head? > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From jason at textfiles.com Wed Dec 31 21:01:57 2014 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 22:01:57 -0500 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <20150101024604.GA16620@lonesome.com> References: <62f2cc1a1318a56d9f6e6d668cfa5f8d@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> <54A4B45A.2060106@jetnet.ab.ca> <20150101024604.GA16620@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Ban this sick filth On Dec 31, 2014 9:46 PM, "Mark Linimon" wrote: > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 07:43:38PM -0700, ben wrote: > > On 12/31/2014 6:07 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > >Everybody a happy 2015 and fruitful new year, with a lot classic > computing. > > > > Quit pushing 6502 and 68000 computers. > > Yeah! Let's get some Fairchild F8 action going instead! > > :-) > > mcl >