From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 00:21:10 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 00:21:10 -0600 Subject: Next warehouse day March 2 In-Reply-To: References: <014f01ce0eed$f78cf050$e6a6d0f0$@com> Message-ID: Cindy sent this response about some of the equipment I saw after hours where she doesn't have access to the mailing list. ------ There are 4 AS400 machines in the back left. 2 are white, and 2 are black. I believe the black ones are a little newer. They seem to be pairs. In the very back, behind them, is an RA82 hard drive in the DEC mounting frame from the server we took it out of. The server worked, so I assume the hard drive might also. Next to the RA82 is an old Sperry server, which from the tags inside, may never have been used. It is a large rectangular box with not much on the outside. The Sperry identification comes from inside the removable back panel, which also has a tag to be removed when the unit was put into service. This tag was never removed. It came from military surplus. There is also an E1000 Sun server, and 3 SSAs and some terminals, kbds, etc. Way too heavy to box and ship. Maybe palletize. Also HP Apollo servers, and some old HP 3000 and 9000 gear, some terminals, and a few keyboards. Speaking of keyboards, there is an entire room of keyboards, including terminal, PS2, AT, and XT, and strange things I don't have a clue what they went to. Plenty of old dot matrix and lasers, ink jets for practically free if u haul them off. ----- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 1 00:24:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:24:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362108586.92271.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362108586.92271.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228221740.A9481@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I would have guessed extension roms contain raw independent code. > Largely just writing values to port addtesses I would have guessed that the extension ROMs look just like a different INT10h. Possibly passing some calls through to the old routines. Possibly providing storage for a few other variables. BUT REPLACING INT10h with a different INT10h, with similar calling structure, to keep full compatability with most software. As such, the extension ROMs would contain the replacement INT10h, plus code that gets called once (at boot) to repoint the 10h entry of the IVT to the replacement. That code is basically the same as what is in most TSR loaders, and for the interrupt handler itself, look at the source code for INT10h, and ask "what should be different to support the other modes, etc.?" THEN, assume that that would make sense, so scrap it and write something else as incompatible as possible. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Mar 1 02:08:51 2013 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 00:08:51 -0800 Subject: HP 715/100 ISA IDE drivers for storage devices In-Reply-To: <20130228221740.A9481@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi, I recently resurected a HP 715/100 PaRisc machine after it's 10 years in limbo. The machine has limited storage with a SCSI interface with a small drive attached. I don't have any scsi drives bigger than 1 GB and I want to expand this system using the ISA bus extender in the system. What ISA/IDE cards work with the O/S? I have the last free release of HPUX (cd/dvd) and the system is currently running the older B11.00 Thanks, Jim. From michael at almegacy.com Fri Mar 1 07:04:51 2013 From: michael at almegacy.com (MICHAEL RANDALL) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 08:04:51 -0500 Subject: FW: Looking for old HP PA7100LC and MOTO 88110 In-Reply-To: 0eaadc4737b53fed0f793483a0628818@mail.gmail.com References: 0eaadc4737b53fed0f793483a0628818@mail.gmail.com Message-ID: <04167361aaaeed07745e266570e13242@mail.gmail.com> Dear cctalk: Please add the following post to your daily digest. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there are any issues. Very best regards, Mike *Wanted to purchase: Systems containing Motorola 88110 Processor or HP PA7100LC Processor: * ? Motorola MVME197DP or MVME197SP single board computers utilizing the original 88110 processor, or any system that utilized the Motorola 88110 processor (such as the MOTOROLA 900, 900R workstations or other company?s workstations (e.g., Data General AViiON, Harris Real Time Unix Servers)), originally sold in the United States on or before August 16, 1994. Proof of sale (receipt or the like) is highly preferred. Also interested in technical documentation on any of the above that shows a breakout of the serial number on the MVME197 (SP or DP) or on the 900 or 900R or on other systems that used the Motorola 88110 processor in order to decipher date of manufacture, country of manufacture, etc. ? HP Systems containing the PA7100LC processor, such as the 9000 E-class business servers (Models E25, E35, E45, E55), or the HP 9000 Series 700 Models 712/60 and 712/80i, or HP 9000 Models 715/64, 715/100, 725/100 or HP 9000 Model 743 or HP 9000 model 748i, or HP 3000 Series 9X8 servers such as HP 3000 Series 918 LX, HP 3000 Series 918 RX, HP 3000 Series 928 LX, HP 3000 Series 928 RX, HP 3000 Series 968 LX, HP 3000 Series 968 RX, HP 3000 Series 978 LX, HP 3000 Series 978 RX, originally sold in the United States on or before August 16, 1994. Proof of sale (receipt or the like) is highly preferred. Also interested in technical documentation on any of the above that shows a breakout of the serial number in order to decipher date of manufacture, country of manufacture, etc. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 1 09:16:47 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:16:47 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/28/2013 12:04 PM, Allison wrote: > On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: >> >> That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern >> programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. >> Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net >> (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. >> Ben. >> > > Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting. That and in7 is > just a bigger pig. > > The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a > pig and the graphics > unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to only how fast all > the data gets there. > > However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the > graphics load (screen) > lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI and its very fast. I > know this from running > and ARM7 based system at 300mhz and for text and compiling code for > itself the limiting factor > is actually the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). > > To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. > > Allison > Hard to say. Embedded tasks to me require lots of I/O and that seems to be limited on general purpose systems. I have yet to see a PIA driver for linux. :) > > Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 1 09:25:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 10:25:31 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> On 03/01/2013 10:16 AM, ben wrote: >> To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. > > Hard to say. Embedded tasks to me require lots of I/O and that seems to > be limited on general purpose systems. I have yet to see a PIA driver > for linux. :) Then you've not been looking. You can even do it with USB-connected devices with free software and a few bucks' worth of hardware. The Pi has a good bit of both built-in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 1 09:28:10 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:28:10 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5130C90A.8080001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/28/2013 1:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I disagree here. That is mass market prices. I want a computer *Done* right. >> HP calculators ~ 1975 was the last computing device I have seen done right. > > Precisely! > > I would much rather pay $100 for somethingthat does the job han $25 for > soemthign that doesn't. > > Going bnack 30 eyars, the BBC micro was expensive, sure. But it worked. > The Sinclair Specturm was a lot cheaper, but it was nmt useful fo rthe > soets of thigns I want to do. > > I do wonder, though, why you think the HP67 (1975-ish) was the last > useable HP calcualtor. I feel the HP41 and HP71 families are also > well-desngied. Current HP models, fo coruse, are not. I remember borrowing them, but never owned one. I may be old fashioned but I want software to be productive not full of gimmicks. I have 3 button microwave (High,low,defrost) and 30 min rotary timer. I does the job it wants to do. I run windows to play games and surf the web and do a little C programing. ( Less now that I got bundled with 64 bit windows, as many of all my old apps will not. t.com was nice editor ). > -tony > Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 1 09:36:25 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:36:25 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <1362102653.32781.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362102653.32781.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5130CAF9.3070104@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/28/2013 6:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > >>> How would such late versions of Windoze wind up on the other 5150? >>> Wonders never cease. >> >> The other 5150 could run a CD-ROM drive. There are a few complications to >> doing so, such as needing DOS 3.10 or above if you don't want to write >> your own CD-ROM drivers, etc. I've never put a DVD drive on a 5150, but >> I don't think that the differences would matter much. > > Better yet, let's test the premise in a non anachronistic real world way by transferring Winders 7 to o roughly 126,000 cassette tapes. You can start w/o me. I'll join in in about 6 months. > > My advice is to get the fastest 8088 you can find. > > I'd use a COCO II computer. You don't need to run the software. :) Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 1 09:39:51 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:39:51 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/1/2013 8:25 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/01/2013 10:16 AM, ben wrote: >>> To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. >> >> Hard to say. Embedded tasks to me require lots of I/O and that seems to >> be limited on general purpose systems. I have yet to see a PIA driver >> for linux. :) > > Then you've not been looking. You can even do it with USB-connected > devices with free software and a few bucks' worth of hardware. The Pi > has a good bit of both built-in. > > -Dave > I want to bit bang the hardware! Ben. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 1 09:49:19 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 07:49:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130C90A.8080001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5130C90A.8080001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Mar 2013, ben wrote: > I run windows to play games and surf the web and do a little > C programing. ( Less now that I got bundled with 64 bit windows, > as many of all my old apps will not. t.com was nice editor ). > Ben, you might want to check out DOSBox. It was written to allow playing old DOS games on modern systems, but does quite well at pretty much most other DOS tasks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 1 10:04:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 11:04:27 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5130D18B.9050906@neurotica.com> On 03/01/2013 10:39 AM, ben wrote: >>>> To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. >>> >>> Hard to say. Embedded tasks to me require lots of I/O and that seems to >>> be limited on general purpose systems. I have yet to see a PIA driver >>> for linux. :) >> >> Then you've not been looking. You can even do it with USB-connected >> devices with free software and a few bucks' worth of hardware. The Pi >> has a good bit of both built-in. >> > I want to bit bang the hardware! As in, directly with I/O instructions? Any grownup operating system on a full-blown computer will prevent userland code from doing that, and rightfully so. If you want to bit-bang hardware, move into the embedded systems arena. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 10:26:54 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 11:26:54 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <5130198E.4010902@sydex.com> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> <20130228151138.J95501@shell.lmi.net> <5130198E.4010902@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/28/2013 03:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. >> >> There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG! >> >> CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out. That's what I remember when EGA was new and expensive (then it was quickly gone and replaced with VGA in what felt like a few months). > Even more, they were early adopters of CAD workstations (Sun, Daisy, > Apollo,...). PeeCees were for weenies. I definitely remember that era. Lots of the CAD I saw in the 8-bit and 16-bit PC era was on $10K-$50K UNIX workstations. I was just asking a friend last night about engineering drawings and what he used when he was a draftsman, and he replied, "Intergraph workstation" and whatever the matching application was (it's not like you had lots of application choices on proprietary platforms). The first schematic capture and PCB layout system I ever saw up close was in 1984 (and was a year or two old at that point, so it was contemporary with the IBM 5150). It ran on a IBM 4331 and used a largish (17"? 19"?) Tektronix storage scope for the user. I recall it being a bit clunky to use. PADS? (not PADS-PCB the MS-DOS application that we used 2-3 years later when an IBM 5170 PC/AT was available and capable of doing circuit layout). -ethan From bobvines00 at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 10:32:43 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 11:32:43 -0500 Subject: Which PDP-8, PDP-11, Etc., Components Require Protection from High Humidity? Message-ID: I've been storing my PDP-8s, PDP-11s, disk drive units, floppies, etc., in my garage at about 45% relative humidity in an attempt to prevent corrosion/deterioration. Finances are about to force me to turn off my dehumidifier out there and I can't bring the *complete* machines into the house. Which components, modules, or other related items should I be most concerned about protecting from high humidity? Which should I move into my house? Magnetic core modules? Disk packs? Floppies? Etc.? Any recommendations? Thanks, Bob From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 1 10:46:35 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 11:46:35 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5130DB6B.105@verizon.net> On 03/01/2013 10:16 AM, ben wrote: > On 2/28/2013 12:04 PM, Allison wrote: >> On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: >>> >>> That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern >>> programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. >>> Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net >>> (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. >>> Ben. >>> >> >> Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting. That and in7 is >> just a bigger pig. >> >> The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a >> pig and the graphics >> unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to only how fast all >> the data gets there. >> >> However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the >> graphics load (screen) >> lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI and its very fast. I >> know this from running >> and ARM7 based system at 300mhz and for text and compiling code for >> itself the limiting factor >> is actually the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). >> >> To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. >> >> Allison >> > > Hard to say. Embedded tasks to me require lots of I/O and that seems > to be limited on general purpose systems. I have yet to see a PIA > driver for linux. :) > Well, the solution is called programming, the PIA is not much more complex than the known parallel printer port. With open source code doing that is made much easier, if someone hasn't already. I work with embedded hardware/software and often the IO reduces to USB or TWI interfaces that are already known. Since much of the ARM based hardware already runs linux the next steps are pretty easy to get to. In the end don't tell me about it, as Yoda might say; Do or not do, no whine. Allison From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 1 11:02:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 09:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs Message-ID: <1362157373.50605.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> Better yet, let's test the premise in a non anachronistic real world way by transferring Winders 7 to o roughly 126,000 cassette tapes. You can start w/o me. I'll join in in about 6 months. >> >> My advice is to get the fastest 8088 you can find. >> >> > >I'd use a COCO II computer. You don't need to run the software. :) >Ben. Who said anything about running it! > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 1 11:14:37 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <5130CAF9.3070104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1362102653.32781.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5130CAF9.3070104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20130301090342.W28054@shell.lmi.net> > >>> How would such late versions of Windoze wind up on the other 5150? > >>> Wonders never cease. > >> The other 5150 could run a CD-ROM drive. There are a few complications to > >> doing so, such as needing DOS 3.10 or above if you don't want to write > >> your own CD-ROM drivers, etc. I've never put a DVD drive on a 5150, but > >> I don't think that the differences would matter much. > > Better yet, let's test the premise in a non anachronistic real world > > way by transferring Winders 7 to o roughly 126,000 cassette tapes. You > > can start w/o me. I'll join in in about 6 months. If you happen to have 126,000 cassette tapes, we know somebody who is looking for [preferably unopened] quantities of tapes On Fri, 1 Mar 2013, ben wrote: > I'd use a COCO II computer. You don't need to run the software. :) Can the Coco cassette port communicate with the 5150 cassette port? Or the TRS80 model 1/3? I no longer have enough cards to hold an image of Windoze, nor enough storage space, nor access to a suitable punch :-( If it were possible to run Windoze8 on a 5150 (it isn't), it would take more than 6 months to boot. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 1 11:17:04 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 09:17:04 -0800 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362111337.92010.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362111337.92010.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5130E290.20604@sydex.com> On 02/28/2013 08:15 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I want them. All of them. Wait for me to die, then contact my widow. I'm sure she'll make a great deal for you. --Chuck From bobvines00 at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 11:17:24 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:17:24 -0500 Subject: Calculator Use (was: Re: Raspberry Pi) Message-ID: [snip] > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:05:30 -0800 (PST) > From: Chris Tofu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi > Message-ID: > <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier at web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:38 AM PST Tony Duell wrote: > >>It has been said that now that calcualtors are everywhere, kids do not >>need to leanr how to do long multiplication and division. I am nto sure I >>accept that (given that long multiplciaton and division have applciations >>in manipulating agebraic expresions too). But I am convinced that if you >>are goign to assume that clacualtors are everywhere you should teach kids >>why said calculators do not always give the right answers and how to >>avoid such problems. >> >>-tony > > When I was in hs, calculators weren't seen until or 12th grade. When it was > impractical and too time consuming to work out every log, trig function, or > laborious arithmetic operation. Kids have been bringing calculators to > school for 2 decades probably, and I for one see that as a travesty. > Just last year, I had to show a young Engineer in my office how to use my 1983-vintage Radio Shack scientific calculator! :P He's young enough to either have mostly used smart phone apps for such things rather than *real* calculators, or he'd forgotten how to use a scientific calculator because of his app use/dependence. Of course, another Engineer in my office discovered the hard way that his calculator app was faulty when calculating a trig function (Sine, I think) for a problem. Fortunately, a real calculator convinced him that his app had a bug (a RAD to DEG conversion programming error) -- he immediately found a better calculator app. Bob From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 1 11:23:58 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:23:58 +0100 Subject: Which PDP-8, PDP-11, Etc., Components Require Protection from High Humidity? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5130E42E.2080105@hachti.de> Hello Bob, > I've been storing my PDP-8s, PDP-11s, disk drive units, floppies, > etc., in my garage at about 45% relative humidity in an attempt to > prevent corrosion/deterioration. I think 45% is rather dry. I'd keep going with 65% which seems to be fine as well. > Finances are about to force me to > turn off my dehumidifier out there and I can't bring the *complete* machines > into the house. > Which components, modules, or other related items should I be most > concerned about protecting from high humidity? Which should I move > into my house? Magnetic core modules? Disk packs? Floppies? Etc.? > Any recommendations? I can only speak about my particular experience covering some particular bits and pieces. The pdp8/L, pdp8/e, TU56, RK05 etc. boards seems to like frost free and dry storage MUCH (!!) better than anything else. I have seen massive differences in reliability. So just pull the cards and take them into the house. Wirewrap backplanes are quite robust. TU56 drives: Can literally survive water in the basement. Motors tend to rust. Keeping in the garage should be no problem. RK05 drives: You can even store them outside, but not with too much rain. I have units that were stored outside. And they just work better than other units stored somewhere in a basement. Leave them in the garage. PDP8/e and /l PSUs tend to become rusty if stored in really moist conditions. Not very beautiful - but function seems to stay perfect. Except for the boards and most-beloved front panels I'd keep the stuff in the garage. The garage should not float in water. Condensation on the parts should be avoided. But: Keep the disk packs dry! At last: Honeywell X16 gear can be stored under any conditions. Outside with humidity and frost. The cosmetical condition may change. And switches will oxidize. But the machines themselves seem to be impossible to destroy due to the kind of ICs they were using :-) Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 1 11:38:57 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 11:38:57 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362091070.97379.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362091070.97379.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201ce16a3$a6b84ea0$f428ebe0$@com> Going to be a bit on this list, we are getting the posted as fast as we can. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:38 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: IBM 5150 ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:46 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >We have the video cards, too. List please :) ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6139 - Release Date: 02/28/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6139 - Release Date: 02/28/13 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 1 11:42:58 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 10:42:58 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <20130301090342.W28054@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362102653.32781.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5130CAF9.3070104@jetnet.ab.ca> <20130301090342.W28054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5130E8A2.5070102@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/1/2013 10:14 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> How would such late versions of Windoze wind up on the other 5150? >>>>> Wonders never cease. >>>> The other 5150 could run a CD-ROM drive. There are a few complications to >>>> doing so, such as needing DOS 3.10 or above if you don't want to write >>>> your own CD-ROM drivers, etc. I've never put a DVD drive on a 5150, but >>>> I don't think that the differences would matter much. >>> Better yet, let's test the premise in a non anachronistic real world >>> way by transferring Winders 7 to o roughly 126,000 cassette tapes. You >>> can start w/o me. I'll join in in about 6 months. > > If you happen to have 126,000 cassette tapes, we know somebody who is > looking for [preferably unopened] quantities of tapes > > On Fri, 1 Mar 2013, ben wrote: >> I'd use a COCO II computer. You don't need to run the software. :) > > Can the Coco cassette port communicate with the 5150 cassette port? > Or the TRS80 model 1/3? > Offhand I would say yes. Now 20+ years later I don't have any paper docs of the COCO II and the XT. > I no longer have enough cards to hold an image of Windoze, nor enough > storage space, nor access to a suitable punch :-( > > > If it were possible to run Windoze8 on a 5150 (it isn't), it would take > more than 6 months to boot. > Sadly intel chips still boot up in the 8088 memory model. A real pain for any new OS. Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Mar 1 12:02:03 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 10:02:03 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5130ED1B.5010405@jwsss.com> On 2/28/2013 3:21 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > The only part I see as good for the Pi is I don't see many overheating > reviews. A lot of the phone chips, for instance the samsung chip i have in my phone are available in these sorts of products. Put a cell phone chip on a board with normal connectors. the problem is that we are now at a time when a lot of these systems on a chip need to have a lot of power management to run low power and to run cool. Most are not designed to just have all the silicon on all the time and run normally that way. With either a linux system or android system most will not run that way unless the vendors full bsp support for all portions of the system are released. I suspect they are turning on only the apps processors and maybe a few other assets and just leaving them on, rather than modifying drivers to turn them on as needed. To expose such in open source would expose a lot of tricks they don't want to share. The Pi processor is not such a system, but is representative of what you would see as a small portion of one of the ones you referenced. In fact I would not be surprised if in the case of the dongle like you describe which I found for the chip in my Galaxy Note 2 the Egynos 4412 has an arm7 equivalent of faster than the Pi completely held in reset and ignored. The modems frequently are on the systems and are hopefully left turned off and passive since there are no RF external gear to make them useful. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 1 12:19:46 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 10:19:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <5130E8A2.5070102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1362102653.32781.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5130CAF9.3070104@jetnet.ab.ca> <20130301090342.W28054@shell.lmi.net> <5130E8A2.5070102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20130301101711.S28054@shell.lmi.net> > > Can the Coco cassette port communicate with the 5150 cassette port? > > Or the TRS80 model 1/3? On Fri, 1 Mar 2013, ben wrote: > Offhand I would say yes. Now 20+ years later I don't have any paper > docs of the COCO II and the XT. Actually, the XT (5160) did not have a cassette port. Only the PC (5150). Also, the XT had 8 slots, instead of 5, although one slot had buffering issues, so IBM plugged it up with a "free" serial card. > Sadly intel chips still boot up in the 8088 memory model. > A real pain for any new OS. but great for continuing with the old REAL software From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Mar 1 12:56:40 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:56:40 -0600 Subject: Learning (was: Re: IBM 5150 ROMs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 3/1/13, Ben wrote: >I'd use a COCO II computer. You don't need to run the software. :) >Ben. Maybe not for recording Win7, but for learning BASIC, this turns out to be good advice. One from Cindy's warehouse (after taking off the dusty top case and washing it and the keys, and buying an RCA-to-"F"-connector adaptor for the video) has spent part of last night and *all* of this morning (since before I got up until after noon) teaching Extended Color Basic to my 12-year-old son. WOOT. Maybe I'm dreaming, but I may finally have found at least a partial antidote to "MineCraft". Fortunately, I already own a cassette recorder and cable and the EDTASM cartridge, and Drivewire 3 with OS-9 images runs on our G3 iMac, so assuming that talks to the CoCo, he's got room to grow for a while. I suppose I should try to get Drivewire 4 running on the iMac ... For reference: http://www.cloud9tech.com/ Cassette recorder/cable (and many other goodies) http://www.frontiernet.net/~mmarlette/Cloud-9/Software/DriveWire3.html DriveWire 3, runs on the iMac but haven't tested communications yet https://sites.google.com/site/drivewire4/ DriveWire 4, not running for me on Mac OS X.4 http://www.altex.com/F-Female-to-RCA-Male-Adapter-7530-P140726.aspx Adapts channel 3 RF-encoded video from CoCo 2 RCA jack to "F" connector -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 1 13:13:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 11:13:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Learning (was: Re: IBM 5150 ROMs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130301110823.E28054@shell.lmi.net> > >I'd use a COCO II computer. You don't need to run the software. :) On Fri, 1 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: > Maybe not for recording Win7, That's merely an iconic waste of resources > but for learning BASIC, this > turns out to be good advice. One from Cindy's warehouse (after taking > off the dusty top case and washing it and the keys, and buying an > RCA-to-"F"-connector adaptor for the video) has spent part of last > night and *all* of this morning (since before I got up until after > noon) teaching Extended Color Basic to my 12-year-old son. > WOOT. > Maybe I'm dreaming, but I may finally have found at least a partial > antidote to "MineCraft". > Fortunately, I already own a cassette recorder and cable and the > EDTASM cartridge, and Drivewire 3 with OS-9 images runs on our G3 > iMac, so assuming that talks to the CoCo, he's got room to grow for a > while. I suppose I should try to get Drivewire 4 running on the iMac At least the original models coulsd be trivially modified for composite video out. The floppy disk controller of the original Cocos is a WD 179x series and easy to work with. Dr. Marty wrote some simple programs for transfewrring files with 360K PC floppies. From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Mar 1 13:13:36 2013 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 19:13:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <864913006.63498.1362164934878.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1244347938.63686.1362165216972.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 11 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:24:14 -0500 >From: Ethan Dicks < ethan.dicks at gmail.com > > >On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the >>> 5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set >>> the colors and resolution... >> >> For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on. > >I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I >personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and >that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was >using it on. > >-ethan The first half dozen or so versions of AutoCAD could run at CGA resolution. I ran my first version of AutoCAD (2.08, Release 5) on an XT clone with a CGA card. Later, I was able to afford a Techmar Graphics Master. I could run that at 708 by 708 monochrome on the same XT clone. I still have the software, but unfortunately no longer have the Techmar card. I have also run AutoCAD 2.14 (Release 6) on an HP 200LX palmtop, which is basically CGA. It can be done, but the limited resolution does hamper what you can do. I also have a copy of AutoCAD 1.4 (Release 4, 1983) that was customized by John Walker to run on an Otrona Attache 8:16 for an archaeologist colleague at the University of Chicago. The Otrona has a strange software emulation of CGA! Bob From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 13:17:28 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:17:28 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:39 AM, ben wrote: > > I want to bit bang the hardware! > Ben. > > You kiss your mother with that mouth? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 1 13:33:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 14:33:41 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51310295.90506@neurotica.com> On 03/01/2013 02:17 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >> I want to bit bang the hardware! >> Ben. >> >> > You kiss your mother with that mouth? I do, she doesn't mind. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 13:36:26 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 19:36:26 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5131033A.40305@gmail.com> On 28/02/2013 23:21, Sam O'nella wrote: > erface to microcontroller programming with a bunch of add-on > devices. > > The only part I see as good for the Pi is I don't see many overheating > reviews. But I hear so many comments about chipset issues it makes me > nervous. I'm really just interested in some low power streaming device > that can either play videos I've converted myself or host a dlna server for > my devices that can then do the playing themselves but I'm not sure what > out there is powerful enough. I think its fine for that. I run XBMC on mine and and can remote control it from my Android phone. Main issue is only HDMI out so no use for old style TVs. The newer PIs have many of the power issues cured. > > > Now adays I KNOW a computer can handle it but I'd still like a lower power > device near the TV as a preferred method than a server just for videos. I > thought the Pi might do the trick. One of these google devices might too > but I can't afford to keep tinkering around with failed promises. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 13:40:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 19:40:59 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <4CBF38C3-41B7-4028-B8F5-504C5CE92428@gmail.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <4CBF38C3-41B7-4028-B8F5-504C5CE92428@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5131044B.6030109@gmail.com> On 01/03/2013 00:25, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:17 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. >> In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs >> don't work. > Er, what? Buffer overruns are the same regardless of what chipset > you run, at least as long as your stack grows downwards (most stacks, > including ARMs' stacks, do). Stack headspace randomization, which > is generally a software thing, can cause the code intended to be > executed by a buffer overrun fail (since there's no static offset to > branch to), but it's not a feature of the hardware on most machines. But buffer over runs need to code specific. I meant current buffer run attacks won't work as they generally target I86... > Side note: are there any architectures which provide hardware stack > randomization? Seems like an unlikely feature to implement, but it > would make sense since it tends to hurt performance to a measurable > degree. > > > - Dave > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 1 13:55:36 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 11:55:36 -0800 Subject: Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513107B8.20801@sydex.com> Personally, I think the IBM 1620 is a great machine on which to teach programming. Decimal (none of that nasty binary, hex vs. octal..), absolutely consistent instruction length (12 digits: 2 opcode, 5 for each of the two addresses), variable word length (none of this "how many decimal digits can 32 bits store?". You want a 5,000 digit number? Fine--it can do it. No visible registers--it's all memory-to-memory. I/O is very straightforward (return the carriage on the typewriter, type a number...). You can type your machine-language program in on the console, hit "release" and watch it run. Dijkstra hated the machine, but lots of people learned to program on it. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Mar 1 14:02:16 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:02:16 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> <5130C65F.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5130C86B.9010709@neurotica.com> <5130CBC7.3090403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20130301210216.c2065621584ace805a3b5b23@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:39:51 -0700 ben wrote: > I want to bit bang the hardware! NetBSD has a special device driver framework for this: gpio(4) NAME gpio -- General Purpose Input/Output [...] DESCRIPTION The gpio device attaches to the GPIO controller and provides a uniform programming interface to its pins. Each GPIO controller with an attached gpio device has an associated device file under the /dev directory, e.g. /dev/gpio0. Access from userland is performed through ioctl(2) calls on these devices. [...] -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 1 14:28:32 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 14:28:32 -0600 Subject: Learning (was: Re: IBM 5150 ROMs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b501ce16bb$57921550$06b63ff0$@com> Way to go! Amazing how much of this old dusty stuff still runs! One from Cindy's warehouse (after taking off the dusty top case and washing it and the keys, and buying an RCA-to-"F"-connector adaptor for the video) has spent part of last night and *all* of this morning (since before I got up until after noon) teaching Extended Color Basic to my 12-year-old son. WOOT. Maybe I'm dreaming, but I may finally have found at least a partial antidote to "MineCraft". Fortunately, I already own a cassette recorder and cable and the EDTASM cartridge, and Drivewire 3 with OS-9 images runs on our G3 iMac, so assuming that talks to the CoCo, he's got room to grow for a while. I suppose I should try to get Drivewire 4 running on the iMac ... For reference: http://www.cloud9tech.com/ Cassette recorder/cable (and many other goodies) http://www.frontiernet.net/~mmarlette/Cloud-9/Software/DriveWire3.html DriveWire 3, runs on the iMac but haven't tested communications yet https://sites.google.com/site/drivewire4/ DriveWire 4, not running for me on Mac OS X.4 http://www.altex.com/F-Female-to-RCA-Male-Adapter-7530-P140726.aspx Adapts channel 3 RF-encoded video from CoCo 2 RCA jack to "F" connector -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6139 - Release Date: 02/28/13 From lists at loomcom.com Fri Mar 1 14:30:21 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:30:21 -0500 Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> * On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 02:05:30PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > [...] Kids have been bringing calculators to school for 2 decades > probably, and I for one see that as a travesty. Out of curosity, why? I certainly wish I could have had a calculator in class when I was in school, it would have made math much less tedious. I come from the awkward in-between era when calculators existed, but were not yet permitted in the classroom, or (God forbid!) on tests. My most unpleasant memories of math from grade school through high school were arithmetic. The pointless drudgery and tedium of calculating rote answers on paper or in my head, instead of using my brain to solve REAL problems, put me off math until college. When I discovered what a joy algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus were, I was even more angry at the years I spent doing times tables, addition, subtraction, and multiplication when a tiny machine could have freed me up to care about the more interesting stuff. Personally, I say every kid should be armed with a basic scientific calculator from the moment they start learning. Ban arithmetic and teach the fun stuff from the get-go. You'll get more engineers that way! :) -Seth From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 1 15:01:59 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:01:59 -0600 Subject: Calculators and learning In-Reply-To: <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00bf01ce16c0$0417bec0$0c473c40$@com> On the other hand, we have kids here who are high school graduates and can't count change without the computer telling them how to do it! VERY frustrating to be stuck in a checkout line because the computer blinked, and the cashier can't figure out how to make change. The first calculator for public use came out in 1977, that I know of. It was a TI, and was the size of a sheet of typewriter paper. Only 4 functions, and it cost $100! We were allowed slide rules, but the basic repitition of multiplication tables ended at 2nd grade for us. After that, if you did not know the basics, you were held back until you did. When my kids went to school, math was so firmly emphasized that they all had to know the basics, including multiply and dividing fractions and decimals, changing decimals to other bases, etc by the end of 5th grade, or you got held back. Computer lab started in 6th grade, computer basics was mandatory by 8th grade, and by 9th grade all written assignments were required to be done on the computers. Entire classes were computer based and modularized, so the kids who understood how to use the computers well could easily complete 8 or more semester classes in the first 90 days of school. They seemed to retain it, and each module built on the one before it, so the retention was increased. Then the state stepped in, and said that the computerized classes did not meet the mandated teaching requirements of interaction with the students, so they were discontinued, and the students went back to being bored. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Seth Morabito Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] * On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 02:05:30PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > [...] Kids have been bringing calculators to school for 2 decades > probably, and I for one see that as a travesty. Out of curosity, why? I certainly wish I could have had a calculator in class when I was in school, it would have made math much less tedious. I come from the awkward in-between era when calculators existed, but were not yet permitted in the classroom, or (God forbid!) on tests. My most unpleasant memories of math from grade school through high school were arithmetic. The pointless drudgery and tedium of calculating rote answers on paper or in my head, instead of using my brain to solve REAL problems, put me off math until college. When I discovered what a joy algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus were, I was even more angry at the years I spent doing times tables, addition, subtraction, and multiplication when a tiny machine could have freed me up to care about the more interesting stuff. Personally, I say every kid should be armed with a basic scientific calculator from the moment they start learning. Ban arithmetic and teach the fun stuff from the get-go. You'll get more engineers that way! :) -Seth ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6139 - Release Date: 02/28/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6139 - Release Date: 02/28/13 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Mar 1 15:45:13 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 13:45:13 -0800 Subject: Calculators and learning In-Reply-To: <00bf01ce16c0$0417bec0$0c473c40$@com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <00bf01ce16c0$0417bec0$0c473c40$@com> Message-ID: <51312169.5090808@jwsss.com> On 3/1/2013 1:01 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > The first calculator for public use came out in 1977, that I know of. It > was a TI, and was the size of a sheet of typewriter paper. Only 4 > functions, and it cost $100! I had and SR-11 in 73 or so in school. University of Missouri, Rolla banned them in tests till then, but had the Wang Nixie calculators in a lab when I started in 1971 for use on a First come first served signup basis. Slide rules were allowed, and I had an 8" circular one which gave 5 and 6 place results quicker than the straight ones. In 74 they were allowed in tests and their use really exploded. I recall seeing HP as well, but would not swear to which one. Even with the calculator introduced in the tests, simple errors wouldn't flunk you, but not justifying the work you had would. If you did something stupid and didn't realize it didn't pass a reasonableness test, or if accuracy was explicitly required in the work, then you got dinged. but if you did something obvious but something you would catch normally in checking (not a test setting) it seldom even dinged you. So the calculators and slide rules were not to get accuracy, or speed, but just to make it easier. I think using computers, and newer techniques which may have had calculators available started to be incorporated into the curriculum then as the hardware and methods started to go out, but I think we had the basic calculators at the same time as others out in the workplace did, so they had not had time to make up and adopt new techniques then. Still a lot of slide rules and adding machine math. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 1 17:18:33 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 23:18:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362088717.55140.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 28, 13 01:58:37 pm Message-ID: > > > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:59 AM PST Tony Duell wrote: > > >BUT this will not coverrt scan rates. You end up with a composite signal > >with an 18kHz horizotnal scan frequency if you start with an MDA singal. > >Some monuitors can be tweked ot handle that, many cannot. Of those that > >can, they might not like it too much,m you are stressing the horizotnal > >ouptu transisotr and flyback transoformer a bit. > > Are said xsistors readily replaceable with one that can handle a > wider range? What ultimately happens if you push a flyback too far? Not really. Horizotnal output trnasistos are run under very unusual conditions (HV pulses on the collector, etc) and quite often, even equiveletns that look OK on paper will not work in practice. Finding a mnore robust replacemetn is almost impossible unless you know rather a lot about the actual output stage. Even replacing the transistor with the same type for normal use is not always trivial. it may have been specially selected. Sometimes that means it gets a house number, which at least number. Sometiems it has just the notmal nymber, but not all fo that type work. > Burnt winding? What normanlyl happens is insualtion breakdown. The insualtion burns off, and the turns short together. it is rare fo the copepr wire to melt. Of course shorted turns totally ruin the transoformer. Becuae of hte high votlages involved, these transformers are 'potted' in a suitable compount. Often vacuum impregnated to make sure that potting compound gets eveywhere and imporves the insualtion. Repairing a flyback transformer or makign a replacemtn is not easy, it's something I must look into one day... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 1 17:35:53 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 23:35:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Calculator Use (was: Re: Raspberry Pi) In-Reply-To: from "Bob Vines" at Mar 1, 13 12:17:24 pm Message-ID: > Just last year, I had to show a young Engineer in my office how to use > my 1983-vintage Radio Shack scientific calculator! :P Some years ago I was sitting i nthe lab when somebody came in and asked to borrow a calculator. Without thinking I handed him my HP48. His reply ? 'At last, I ve found soembody with a calcualtor I can use. I've been gooing all over the buidlign looking for one'. You see, a lot of people, includign myself, are not clever enough to use a calcualtor with an '=' key... > > He's young enough to either have mostly used smart phone apps for such > things rather than *real* calculators, or he'd forgotten how to use a > scientific calculator because of his app use/dependence. Don't the apps work the same way as physical calcuators? The ones I've seen seem to. -tony From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Mar 1 19:07:00 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 02:07:00 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130302010700.GA3067@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:04 AM PST Allison > wrote: > > >On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: > >> > >> That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern programing > >> tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. Explain to me > >> why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net (windows 7) and a > >> credit card computer can do better for surfing. Ben. > >> > > > >Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting. That and in7 is > >just a bigger pig. > > > >The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a pig > >and the graphics unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to only > >how fast all the data gets there. > > > >However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the > >graphics load (screen) lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI > >and its very fast. I know this from running and ARM7 based system at 300mhz > >and for text and compiling code for itself the limiting factor is actually > >the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). > > > >To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. > > > >Allison > > What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And What on earth for? It is not running Windows, it runs Raspbian (a modified Debian Wheezy) by default. Aside from the fact that virus scanners are useless in general. > since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's > internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. What "internet capabilities"? It is a Linux box. Which mean you can do pretty much anything (within the computational & I/O limits of the box - it won't work as an IMAP-Server for 100000 users for example). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Mar 1 19:13:02 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 02:13:02 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130302011302.GC3067@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:18:51PM -0700, Richard wrote: > > In article <512FE45E.5000602 at jwsss.com>, > Jim Stephens writes: > > > The lack of exploits does not mean there will be none. There are still > > vulnerabilities which could work on a linux machine as well as any of > > the PC or Macos ones as well as any. > > How quickly people forget that the first major internet > (unintentional) DDOS attack was all against unix machines. > > Well, back then the internet was a much more open, trusting environment. And even back then, _proper_ system setup safeguards (limiting access to rsh/rlogin, enforcing strong passwords, ...) could have severly limited the spread of the worm. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Mar 1 19:09:11 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 02:09:11 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130228150720.G95501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <20130228150720.G95501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130302010911.GB3067@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:11:06PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on > > > > the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. > > > > The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty > > > > remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. > > > The rpi is so popular that there presumably ARE targeted exoploits in > > > development. > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Dave Wade wrote: > > I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. > > In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs > > don't work. Most folks run normal Linux with no AV why should the PI be > > different? > > The level of additional interest WILL bring in some who WILL put in the > effort to engage in vandalism. > > The current shortage of malware WILL eventually be addressed. > Being different from the current targets provides only a very brief > respite before NEW AND IMPROVED malware gets developed. > > "But, it could NEVER happen HERE!" Yeah. right. But that whole virus scanner nonsense woh't help you there - by definition they won't recognize any brand new mal ware payloads. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Mar 1 19:15:47 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 02:15:47 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <4CBF38C3-41B7-4028-B8F5-504C5CE92428@gmail.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <4CBF38C3-41B7-4028-B8F5-504C5CE92428@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130302011547.GD3067@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:25:22PM -0500, David Riley wrote: > > On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:17 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. > > In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs > > don't work. > > Er, what? Buffer overruns are the same regardless of what chipset > you run, at least as long as your stack grows downwards (most stacks, > including ARMs' stacks, do). Stack headspace randomization, which > is generally a software thing, can cause the code intended to be > executed by a buffer overrun fail (since there's no static offset to > branch to), but it's not a feature of the hardware on most machines. But running buffer overflow exploits with x86 specific machine code payloads isn't going to get you anywhere on ARM. And there are software based mitigation techniques that can seriously limit the impact of buffer overflow exploits - the machine architecture based obscurity defense won't protect you for long. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 1 19:39:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:39:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130302010911.GB3067@thangorodrim.de> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <20130228150720.G95501@shell.lmi.net> <20130302010911.GB3067@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20130301173732.J47535@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Mar 2013, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > But that whole virus scanner nonsense woh't help you there - by definition > they won't recognize any brand new mal ware payloads. I am not a big fan of current "signature matching" anti-virus software, nor of many other forms of "security theater" From jon at jonworld.com Fri Mar 1 19:54:25 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:54:25 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130301173732.J47535@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <20130228150720.G95501@shell.lmi.net> <20130302010911.GB3067@thangorodrim.de> <20130301173732.J47535@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I am not a big fan of current "signature matching" anti-virus software, > nor of many other forms of "security theater" We had a lot of fun talking about this at BSides SF this year. Imagine if it was up to you and you had 2500 workstations in your "enterprise." ? imagine being able to pick and choose and have 50% with some kind of endpoint virus protection and 50% without. At the end of 12 months, what would the infection rate be among the two "pools" of PCs? From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 20:35:05 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:35:05 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130302011547.GD3067@thangorodrim.de> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <4CBF38C3-41B7-4028-B8F5-504C5CE92428@gmail.com> <20130302011547.GD3067@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <04797D4D-FAE1-4859-809E-8A3E63C24E3E@gmail.com> On Mar 1, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:25:22PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:17 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> >>> I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. >>> In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs >>> don't work. >> >> Er, what? Buffer overruns are the same regardless of what chipset >> you run, at least as long as your stack grows downwards (most stacks, >> including ARMs' stacks, do). Stack headspace randomization, which >> is generally a software thing, can cause the code intended to be >> executed by a buffer overrun fail (since there's no static offset to >> branch to), but it's not a feature of the hardware on most machines. > > But running buffer overflow exploits with x86 specific machine code > payloads isn't going to get you anywhere on ARM. And there are software > based mitigation techniques that can seriously limit the impact of > buffer overflow exploits - the machine architecture based obscurity > defense won't protect you for long. Sure. All I was saying was that there's nothing intrinsic in the RPi that prevents buffer overflow exploits; "standard" buffer overflow attacks will work, provided that their payload is written for ARM Linux. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 1 23:27:35 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:27:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Seth Morabito * On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 02:05:30PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: >? [...] Kids have been bringing calculators to school for 2 decades >? probably, and I for one see that as a travesty. Out of curosity, why? I certainly wish I could have had a calculator in class when I was in school, it would have made math much less tedious. I come from the awkward in-between era when calculators existed, but were not yet permitted in the classroom, or (God forbid!) on tests. My most unpleasant memories of math from grade school through high school were arithmetic.? The pointless drudgery and tedium of calculating rote answers on paper or in my head, instead of using my brain to solve REAL problems, put me off math until college. When I discovered what a joy algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus were, I was even more angry at the years I spent doing times tables, addition, subtraction, and multiplication when a tiny machine could have freed me up to care about the more interesting stuff. Personally, I say every kid should be armed with a basic scientific calculator from the moment they start learning. Ban arithmetic and teach the fun stuff from the get-go. You'll get more engineers that way!? :) -Seth C: And you actually don't believe there's any merit in strengthening your problem solving ability by doing a certain number of rote calculating, particularly in the young mind? How do you move on to algebra, which is difficult enough for most people (a severe transition, probably much more so then transitioning from calculus to differential equations). And calculus apart from theory, which you nip in the bud in the first week for the most part, is all technique. That is algebra on steroids, or better yet crack. ?If you don't use it you lose it. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 1 23:34:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130302010700.GA3067@thangorodrim.de> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130302010700.GA3067@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <1362202450.31449.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Alexander Schreiber To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:04 AM PST Allison > wrote: > > >On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: > >> > >> That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern programing > >> tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display.? Explain to me > >> why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net (windows 7) and a > >> credit card computer can do better for surfing.? Ben. > >> > > > >Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting.? That and in7 is > >just a bigger pig. > > > >The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a pig > >and the graphics unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to only > >how fast all the data gets there. > > > >However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the > >graphics load (screen) lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI > >and its very fast.? I know this from running and ARM7 based system at 300mhz > >and for text and compiling code for itself the limiting factor is actually > >the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). > > > >To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. > > > >Allison > >? What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And What on earth for? It is not running Windows, it runs Raspbian (a modified Debian Wheezy) by default. Aside from the fact that virus scanners are useless in general. C: You entirely missed the point apparently. It was being compared to a Windows box in terms of performance. Most Windows boxes employ a firewall and virus scanner (and spam killer, cookie cutter, etc. oi). You haven't noticed Norton or Kaspersky slowing down your system? >? since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's >? internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. What "internet capabilities"? It is a Linux box. Which mean you can do pretty much anything (within the computational & I/O limits of the box - it won't work as an IMAP-Server for 100000 users for example). C: You're batting a thousand (which seems to be a trend in this discussion). Windows boxes (and Linux boxes for that matter) use hard drives. The pi uses sd storage. As do smart phones, tablets. ?So glad to be of service. You're welcome. Kind regards, ? ? ? ? ? ? Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Thomas A. Edison From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 1 23:36:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 21:36:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130302011302.GC3067@thangorodrim.de> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> <20130302011302.GC3067@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <1362202584.23013.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Well, back then the internet was a much more open, trusting environment. And even back then, _proper_ system setup safeguards (limiting access to rsh/rlogin, enforcing strong passwords, ...) could have severly limited the spread of the worm. C: Not to mention that probably every internet host on planet earth was running UNIX. ??? Was the worm supposed to attack Commie 64s? Coco's? Those vile Timex Sinclairs? Kind regards, ? ? ? ? ? Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Thomas A. Edison From earl at retrobits.com Fri Mar 1 12:55:16 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 10:55:16 -0800 Subject: DIBOL-11 manual? Message-ID: Anybody know where there might be a DIBOL-11 language reference manual? Have checked the usual haunts, no joy. Thanks, - Earl From craig at solomonson.net Fri Mar 1 18:48:58 2013 From: craig at solomonson.net (Craig Solomonson) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 18:48:58 -0600 Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? Message-ID: <757329711804df14f8af9915bc2cc5e1.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> In the early 1980's I picked up a micro built around an Intel SIM8-01 development system at an electronics swap meet in Minneapolis. The enclosure is professionally fabricated in a deep red translucent plastic case and uses what appears to be one of the earliest SIM boards issued by Intel. All indications is that it was built in the summer or early fall of 1972. I would like to find out who or what company might have built this system and for what reason. I have posted a YouTube video showing some of the features of this computer and a bit of history about it. You can view the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG6goCIWCYY What is also interesting is that the guy that sold me this computer had 3 micros on his table and all were like new and in working condition. They included this Intel system, an Altair 8800 (factory assembled with serial #5!), and a beautiful SOL-20. That was a nice little collection for one individual to have at that time--seems like he was either well connected in the industry at that time or might have been part of some local R&D department (CDC, Univac, or Honeywell?) and was helping them clean house! Let me know if you have ideas or have seen this system before. Thanks! From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 2 05:52:31 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:52:31 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362202450.31449.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130302010700.GA3067@thangorodrim.de> <1362202450.31449.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130302115231.GB29468@thangorodrim.de> > On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 09:34:10PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ From: Alexander Schreiber > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 8:07 PM Subject: Re: > > Raspberry Pi > > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:04 AM PST Allison > > > wrote: > > > > > > >On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: > > > >> > > > >> That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern > > > >> programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display.? > > > >> Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net > > > >> (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing.? Ben. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting.? That and in7 is > > > >just a bigger pig. > > > > > > > >The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a > > > >pig and the graphics unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to > > > >only how fast all the data gets there. > > > > > > > >However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the > > > >graphics load (screen) lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI > > > >and its very fast.? I know this from running and ARM7 based system at > > > >300mhz and for text and compiling code for itself the limiting factor is > > > >actually the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). > > > > > > > >To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. > > > > > > > >Allison > > > > > >? What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And > > > > What on earth for? It is not running Windows, it runs Raspbian (a modified > > Debian Wheezy) by default. Aside from the fact that virus scanners are > > useless in general. > > > > C: You entirely missed the point apparently. It was being compared to a > > Windows box in terms of performance. > > That isn't really a valid comparison as your typical Windows box (assuming > it is less than 4 years old) has a _lot_ more memory, storage and much more > CPU and GPU than a Raspberry. > > > Most Windows boxes employ a firewall and > > virus scanner (and spam killer, cookie cutter, etc. oi). You haven't noticed > > Norton or Kaspersky slowing down your system? Not at all, they have absolutely no impact on any of my systems. Which would be because all my systems run Unix of some sort (mostly Linux, but also NetBSD and FreeBSD). > > >? since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's ? > > >internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. > > > > What "internet capabilities"? It is a Linux box. Which mean you can do pretty > > much anything (within the computational & I/O limits of the box - it won't > > work as an IMAP-Server for 100000 users for example). > > > > C: You're batting a thousand (which seems to be a trend in this discussion). > > Windows boxes (and Linux boxes for that matter) use hard drives. The pi uses > > sd storage. As do smart phones, tablets. And what exactly does the storage medium have to do with what the system can do network-wise? For that matter, the Raspberry Pi can use harddrives just fine: simply attach (via powered hub) a USB disk ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 2 05:45:45 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 12:45:45 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362202584.23013.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> <20130302011302.GC3067@thangorodrim.de> <1362202584.23013.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130302114545.GA29468@thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 09:36:24PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Well, back then the internet was a much more open, trusting environment. >> >> And even back then, _proper_ system setup safeguards (limiting access to >> rsh/rlogin, enforcing strong passwords, ...) could have severly limited >> the spread of the worm. >> > C: Not to mention that probably every internet host on planet earth was running UNIX. No. There were plenty of other systems, among them VAXen with VMS and others. > ??? Was the worm supposed to attack Commie 64s? Coco's? Those vile Timex Sinclairs? If you'd bothered to read a bit, you'd know the anser. Kind regards, Alex. PS: Fix your quoting, having to repair it is annoying. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 07:21:46 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 08:21:46 -0500 Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > From: Seth Morabito > C: And you actually don't believe there's any merit in strengthening your > problem solving ability by doing a certain number of rote calculating, > particularly in the young mind? > Rote calculating only marginally improves problem solving abilities. Mainly it drills into your head the basic mechanics of calculation. I have no problem with this in early elementary, however, once algebra is introduced symbolic computation should be priority. I was still doing long division in high school - what was the point of that? After 10 years I had it pretty well down (heck I had it down after 5 years) After basic calculation and algebra are mastered, I don't see *any* reason to compute any A/D/M/S operation. As an aside: here's an incredible game that teaches 8-year-olds algebra: http://dragonboxapp.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 2 09:22:19 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:22:19 -0800 Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? In-Reply-To: <757329711804df14f8af9915bc2cc5e1.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> References: <757329711804df14f8af9915bc2cc5e1.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> Message-ID: Hi I have one of the SIM4s with the programmer card.The 1702, 1701, 1602, and 1601 all came out at thesame time. They were combinations of open collectoroutputs and latched address inputs.The 1702 was the only one to be popular enough to stay inproduction.The code on your 8008 is most likely code to run the programmerand a few other things. On my 4004, there are 3 EPROMswith the code in them.The input is not likely RS232 but 20 mil current loop.It would have taken BNF data for the EPROM code.It is possible that your system was actually built for Intelas a sales tool.It would be fun to recover the data from your EPROMsMy set of EPROMs has the code to program 1702As.There would have been slight changes to do the 1702s.Mine is operational and I've used it to read 1702s and alsoto program 1702s. I made a simple 20 ma to RS232 interfaceso that I could use my lap top to transfer data.I read the Sac State EPROMs for Druce Dommer withthis.It is also possible that it was put together significantlyafter the boards were built as a way to display thesehistoric computer boards.The additional EPROMs were added as collector itemsover time and not likely to contain meaningful code.This also supports the idea that it was built some timelater, rather than at the same time as the boards werebuilt by Intel.It is a cool system, though.Dwight > Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 18:48:58 -0600 > Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? > From: craig at solomonson.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > In the early 1980's I picked up a micro built around an Intel SIM8-01 > development system at an electronics swap meet in Minneapolis. The > enclosure is professionally fabricated in a deep red translucent plastic > case and uses what appears to be one of the earliest SIM boards issued by > Intel. All indications is that it was built in the summer or early fall of > 1972. I would like to find out who or what company might have built this > system and for what reason. I have posted a YouTube video showing some of > the features of this computer and a bit of history about it. > > You can view the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG6goCIWCYY > > What is also interesting is that the guy that sold me this computer had 3 > micros on his table and all were like new and in working condition. They > included this Intel system, an Altair 8800 (factory assembled with serial > #5!), and a beautiful SOL-20. That was a nice little collection for one > individual to have at that time--seems like he was either well connected > in the industry at that time or might have been part of some local R&D > department (CDC, Univac, or Honeywell?) and was helping them clean house! > > Let me know if you have ideas or have seen this system before. Thanks! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 09:27:41 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:27:41 +0000 Subject: early CAD Message-ID: While cataloguing today I came across a mention of a drafting system a google and see page 11 of www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694647.pdf What I have is in a collected articles type of book Topics in Electronics, microwave electronics, space technology, avionics radar transportation, laser interferometry, automatic drafting vol VIII 1967 http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=bk3270 Dave Caroline From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 2 09:38:28 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 16:38:28 +0100 Subject: DEC TU10 rack (empty) / DEC VT52 available Message-ID: <51321CF4.8060105@bluewin.ch> Available, for free : empty DEC TU10 rack, with backdoor and sidepanels, in very good condition. Not free : make offer for a fully functional VT52 terminal, a functional Apple III ( with screen and external floppy ) is also slowly looking for a new home. Location : Zurich Switzerland. no shipping, but i do travel throughout Western Europe from time to time. Jos Dreesen From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 2 10:43:05 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 08:43:05 -0800 Subject: early CAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51322C19.9010508@bitsavers.org> On 3/2/13 7:27 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > While cataloguing today I came across a mention of a drafting system > mentioned in Decuscope_Vol05_1966.pdf PDP-8 COMPUTERS FOR NEW AUTOMATIC DRAFTING SYSTEM Airborne Instruments Laboratory Division of Cutler-Hammer Incorporated plans to use ten PDP-8 computers in the control portion of a new automatic drafting system. The new system combines an ORTHOMAT drafting machine with the DECAMATIC Expandable Stored Program (ESP) Control. The latest system in the growing field of numerically controlled engineering drawing, it is being manufactured in a joint program by Airborne Instruments of Deer Park, N.Y. and Universal Drafting Machine Corporation of Cleveland. In addition to its primary function, engineering drawing, it can also be used for making precise layouts or measurements of existing prints and plans, and it can produce punched tapes containing feed rates, cutter paths, and simi lar data to control automatic machine tools. Automatic drafting machines, originally used in aerospace projects, have since spread to the automobile industry, architecture, civil and marine engineering, and other fields in which design, layout, and drafting activities represent a significant investment of engineering manhours. One of their chief benefits is cutting the time and effort needed to prepare detailed graphical presentations, letting the engineer spend more time designing. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 2 10:49:58 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 08:49:58 -0800 Subject: early CAD In-Reply-To: <51322C19.9010508@bitsavers.org> References: <51322C19.9010508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51322DB6.40605@bitsavers.org> On 3/2/13 8:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > and a picture of what appears to be an X/Y stepper motor plotter http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=5265&CISOBOX=1&REC=8 From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 2 11:58:09 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:58:09 -0600 Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51323DB1.5060803@pico-systems.com> Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? Message-ID: <757329711804df14f8af9915bc2cc5e1.squirrel at www.solomonson.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 In the early 1980's I picked up a micro built around an Intel SIM8-01 development system at an electronics swap meet in Minneapolis. The enclosure is professionally fabricated in a deep red translucent plastic case and uses what appears to be one of the earliest SIM boards issued by Intel. All indications is that it was built in the summer or early fall of 1972. I used some smaller Intel 8008 boards in 1976 for a project, but they generally looked a good deal like the ones in the video, just a bit smaller. My guess is that is a one-of-a-kind unit. Jon From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 12:02:03 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 10:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] Message-ID: <1362247323.41955.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 5:21 AM PST Jason McBrien wrote: >> >> From: Seth Morabito >> C: And you actually don't believe there's any merit in strengthening your >> problem solving ability by doing a certain number of rote calculating, >> particularly in the young mind? >> > >Rote calculating only marginally improves problem solving abilities. Mainly >it drills into your head the basic mechanics of calculation. I have no >problem with this in early elementary, however, once algebra is introduced >symbolic computation should be priority. I was still doing long division in >high school - what was the point of that? After 10 years I had it pretty >well down (heck I had it down after 5 years) After basic calculation and >algebra are mastered, I don't see *any* reason to compute any A/D/M/S >operation. > >As an aside: here's an incredible game that teaches 8-year-olds algebra: >http://dragonboxapp.com/ well at least to me it's funny that you bring up long division. I was very good at math through bout my schooling taught myself how to multiply before it was introduced. But long division was always weird to me and still is. in recent history I think I forgot how to do it once or twice. which might sound silly but it's simply reinforces the fact that you need to reinforce the facts. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 12:12:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362247973.39200.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 3:52 AM PST Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 09:34:10PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ From: Alexander Schreiber >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 8:07 PM Subject: Re: >> > Raspberry Pi >> > >> > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:04 AM PST Allison >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > >On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: >> > > > >> > > > That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern >> > > > programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display.? >> > > > Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net >> > > > (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing.? Ben. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting.? That and in7 is >> > > >just a bigger pig. >> > > > >> > > >The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a >> > > >pig and the graphics unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to >> > > >only how fast all the data gets there. >> > > > >> > > >However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the >> > > >graphics load (screen) lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI >> > > >and its very fast.? I know this from running and ARM7 based system at >> > > >300mhz and for text and compiling code for itself the limiting factor is >> > > >actually the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). >> > > > >> > > >To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. >> > > > >> > > >Allison >> > > >> > >? What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And >> > >> > What on earth for? It is not running Windows, it runs Raspbian (a modified >> > Debian Wheezy) by default. Aside from the fact that virus scanners are >> > useless in general. >> > >> > C: You entirely missed the point apparently. It was being compared to a >> > Windows box in terms of performance. >> >> That isn't really a valid comparison as your typical Windows box (assuming >> it is less than 4 years old) has a _lot_ more memory, storage and much more >> CPU and GPU than a Raspberry. >> >> > Most Windows boxes employ a firewall and >> > virus scanner (and spam killer, cookie cutter, etc. oi). You haven't noticed >> > Norton or Kaspersky slowing down your system? > >Not at all, they have absolutely no impact on any of my systems. Which would >be because all my systems run Unix of some sort (mostly Linux, but also >NetBSD and FreeBSD). Ok so therefore not in a position to discuss whether or not the pi should be compared to a windows box to begin with. People love to pick fights on topics, all the while loudly proclaiming they lack all the facts. >> > >? since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's ? >> > >internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. >> > >> > What "internet capabilities"? It is a Linux box. Which mean you can do pretty >> > much anything (within the computational & I/O limits of the box - it won't >> > work as an IMAP-Server for 100000 users for example). >> > >> > C: You're batting a thousand (which seems to be a trend in this discussion). >> > Windows boxes (and Linux boxes for that matter) use hard drives. The pi uses >> > sd storage. As do smart phones, tablets. > >And what exactly does the storage medium have to do with what the system >can do network-wise? For that matter, the Raspberry Pi can use harddrives >just fine: simply attach (via powered hub) a USB disk ... The issue isn't solely about network specifics. Your ability to load/offload data has something to do with the overall net experience, I'm sure. >Kind regards, > Alex. >-- >"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 12:21:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362248488.73678.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 3:45 AM PST Alexander Schreiber wrote: >On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 09:36:24PM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Well, back then the internet was a much more open, trusting environment. >> >> And even back then, _proper_ system setup safeguards (limiting access to >> rsh/rlogin, enforcing strong passwords, ...) could have severly limited >> the spread of the worm. >> >> C: Not to mention that probably every internet host on planet earth was running UNIX. > >No. There were plenty of other systems, among them VAXen with VMS and >others. okay that is a good point. but I'm sure all those were still woefully in the minority >> ??? Was the worm supposed to attack Commie 64s? Coco's? Those vile Timex Sinclairs? > >If you'd bothered to read a bit, you'd know the anser. the answer to what Alex. whether the worm would attack car Commies, Cocos or Sinclairs? I already know that answer thanks. >Kind regards, > Alex. >PS: Fix your quoting, having to repair it is annoying. >-- >"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jgessling at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 12:54:32 2013 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 10:54:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Calculators Message-ID: <1362250472.66167.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher.? In 1975, in Ghana, I was teaching A level math as a Peace Corps teacher.? We had a whole section on slide rule calculations.? Thanks to some agency, I think UNICEF, we had one of those 6 foot long rules that mounted at the front of the class.? The kids really caught on quick and it was a lot of fun.? Especially as the students figured out other things they could do. Regards, James? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 12:59:44 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:59:44 +0000 Subject: early CAD In-Reply-To: <51322DB6.40605@bitsavers.org> References: <51322C19.9010508@bitsavers.org> <51322DB6.40605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/2/13 8:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> > > and a picture of what appears to be an X/Y stepper motor plotter My book has the terminal/drawing device. As the book seems a bit rare and in not the best condition it is not up to shoving on a scanner, have taken a couple of digital pictures of the two page article http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2013/03_02_BK3270/ Dave Caroline From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 13:06:39 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 11:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Calculators Message-ID: <1362251199.95970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> So typically what age were you allowed to use these in school? It stands to trump my argument if it was young enough. What's the difference between a calculator and a slide rule from one perspective? ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 10:54 AM PST James Gessling wrote: >This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher.? In 1975, in Ghana, I was teaching A level math as a Peace Corps teacher.? We had a whole section on slide rule calculations.? Thanks to some agency, I think UNICEF, we had one of those 6 foot long rules that mounted at the front of the class.? The kids really caught on quick and it was a lot of fun.? Especially as the students figured out other things they could do. > > >Regards, James? > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 14:16:19 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:16:19 -0600 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning Message-ID: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect board) yesterday. Self-tests OK but prints with some minor repetitive ghosting on the pages (it has almost a million pages on the clock). There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which might[1] (most probably!?) be the culprit, but gentle cleaning doesn't seem to get rid of it; question is, how aggressive can I be with it? I don't know if the blue-gray color is just a thin coating of something magical, or if it's a hunk of solid metal which can be scrubbed. [1] it was pretty filthy inside, but I stripped everything down around the fuser and toner areas and cleaned everything there. I've not flipped the thing over to check underneath yet, but I'd expect dirty rollers to cause feed problems if anything, not image problems. As it stands it's perfectly fine for home use doing stuff such as printing out things from bitsavers, so I don't want to make it worse - but OTOH it'd be useful as a general-purpose printer if the image problems were fixable without pouring a bunch of cash into it. cheers Jules From db at db.net Sat Mar 2 14:22:29 2013 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:22:29 -0500 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> References: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130302202229.GA31070@night.db.net> On Sat, Mar 02, 2013 at 02:16:19PM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect board) yesterday. > Self-tests OK but prints with some minor repetitive ghosting on the pages > (it has almost a million pages on the clock). > > There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which might[1] (most > probably!?) be the culprit, but gentle cleaning doesn't seem to get rid of > it; question is, how aggressive can I be with it? I don't know if the > blue-gray color is just a thin coating of something magical, or if it's a > hunk of solid metal which can be scrubbed. I have a HP1300 I am contemplating replacing the fuser mylar on as the mylar is torn. You can separately replace the wrapper on the roller http://www.brokenprinter.com I can't yet endorse this company as I am still contemplating it ;) It would be fun to take the printer apart and make it work. (FCVO) This might be an option. > cheers > > Jules - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 2 14:41:54 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 12:41:54 -0800 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362251199.95970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362251199.95970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51326412.6030005@sydex.com> On 03/02/2013 11:06 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > So typically what age were you allowed to use these in school? > > It stands to trump my argument if it was young enough. What's the difference between a calculator and a slide rule from one perspective? I can do phasor math using a slide rule quite easily. I can also do it using trig tables. If I have to derive my own trig functions, it'll take considerably longer. Programmable scientific calculators reduce the slipstick or table lookup to a press of a button. The question is that does each successive level of automation erode the understanding of the underlying principles? In pedagogy, "getting the right answer" is secondary to understanding and demonstrating knowledge of basic principles. In the opinion of many teachers, for example, the math (particularly calculus (diffeq especially) taught engineers is "cookbook". It typically requires a math major two or three times as long to cover the same basic material that an engineer would cover in a math course. The math major isn't necessarily stupider--it's just that the material is covered *in depth*. Engineer's match is taught so that larger principles can be covered in reasonable time. A physics teacher in electromagnetics presenting a simple network for solution may well frown on a student solving the problem using Thevenin or Norton equivalents when said teacher expects Maxwell's equations. Even though the numerical answer may be correct, the student who employs the shortcut may well get a zero for the problem grade. Pedagogy has its own ends, very little of which involves getting the right answer. Thinking of this, are any of the list readers old enough to have been taught Trachtenberg math? I recall at the time that it was criticized roundly for depriving students of a deep understanding; rather concentrating on getting the right answer quickly. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 15:27:20 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:27:20 -0300 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning References: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <101C709782464F04AB0B7D88CD42F743@tababook> > There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which might[1] (most > probably!?) be the culprit, but gentle cleaning doesn't seem to get rid of > it; question is, how aggressive can I be with it? I don't know if the > blue-gray color is just a thin coating of something magical, or if it's a > hunk of solid metal which can be scrubbed. This is a teflon coating that should not be harmed. If you can't clean it with scotchbrite, you can buy a new fuser roller. It will be some $10 and your printer will work like new. Try printerworks (google it), they have detailed catalogs and cheap prices. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 2 15:36:35 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 13:36:35 -0800 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> References: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513270E3.20803@sydex.com> On 03/02/2013 12:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > As it stands it's perfectly fine for home use doing stuff such as > printing out things from bitsavers, so I don't want to make it worse - > but OTOH it'd be useful as a general-purpose printer if the image > problems were fixable without pouring a bunch of cash into it. Could the rollers simply be getting hard with age? If so, a treatment with a xylene-methyl salicylate mixture may recondition the rubber enough. Sold by the name "Rubber Re-nu", it's been known to typewriter techs and the like for decades. But you can make your own easily enough. It might help. --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 15:52:28 2013 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 13:52:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1362261148.60584.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Jules Richardson wrote: > Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect > board) yesterday. Self-tests OK but prints with some minor > repetitive ghosting on the pages (it has almost a million > pages on the clock). > > There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which > might[1] (most probably!?) be the culprit, When the teflon coating on the fuser roller starts to deteriorate, some of the toner sticks to it - then it gets re-deposited further on down the page, causing a "repeat". It's also possible for a faulty toner cartridge to cause a similar repeat. Measure the distance between the initial image, and the repeat. If it's right around 2 1/2", then it's being caused by the fuser. (3 1/8" on a LJ 4+). Repeats that are 3 3/4" or 2" apart are caused by the toner cartridge. Since you see baked-on toner on the roller, it *probably* stuck there because the coating has been damaged in that spot. Then again, it's possible that some toner was spilled and made it's way into the fuser and got stuck - hard to say. Try chipping it off with your fingernail. Avoid scrubbing too hard with anything that would damage the coating - treat it like you would a non-stick pan. The heating roller in the LJ4 is a solid roller, unlike later printers that use film rollers. They usually have a very long life, but, sooner or later, they deteriorate and must be replaced. You can replace just the roller, available from some places online, or the whole fuser. Fortunately, parts for the LaserJet 4 are still readily available. It's one of my favorite small printers, and is very reliable. Speaking of old LaserJets - does anyone aside from me collect them? I've got a decent collection older models, although somehow I don't have a LaserJet II or original LaserJet. I do have the oddball 4V though. -Ian From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 15:57:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 13:57:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? Message-ID: <1362261470.21346.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> preferably not on the west coast. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 16:10:56 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 16:10:56 -0600 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <20130302202229.GA31070@night.db.net> References: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> <20130302202229.GA31070@night.db.net> Message-ID: <513278F0.1040808@gmail.com> On 03/02/2013 02:22 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Sat, Mar 02, 2013 at 02:16:19PM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect board) yesterday. >> Self-tests OK but prints with some minor repetitive ghosting on the pages >> (it has almost a million pages on the clock). >> >> There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which might[1] (most >> probably!?) be the culprit, but gentle cleaning doesn't seem to get rid of >> it; question is, how aggressive can I be with it? I don't know if the >> blue-gray color is just a thin coating of something magical, or if it's a >> hunk of solid metal which can be scrubbed. > > I have a HP1300 I am contemplating replacing the fuser mylar on as > the mylar is torn. You can separately replace the wrapper on the roller > http://www.brokenprinter.com Hmm, not available for my LJ4 it seems - but $38 for a whole new fuser assembly is pretty good (and about a third of what I'd seen them for elsewhere). Looking at that site, it would seem that there's a teflon coating on the upper roller and it's worn on mine, making the toner stick; cleaning ain't gonna bring it back. The lower roller's in pretty bad shape too. Maybe I'll run off a few "home consumption" docs just to make sure that there aren't any other problems with it, then treat it to a new fuser assembly. I'm not sure how to estimate how much life there is left in the toner cartridge; I don't think the LJ4 maintains a count of how many pages have been printed since last install (or more likely, last time the user indicated that a new cartridge had been fitted). cheers Jules From sales at elecplus.com Sat Mar 2 16:11:36 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 16:11:36 -0600 Subject: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? In-Reply-To: <1362261470.21346.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362261470.21346.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002401ce1792$e822ec70$b868c550$@com> Model III, but not 4P. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 3:58 PM To: cc Subject: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? preferably not on the west coast. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6141 - Release Date: 03/01/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6141 - Release Date: 03/01/13 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 16:19:06 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 16:19:06 -0600 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> References: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51327ADA.5000607@gmail.com> On 03/02/2013 02:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect board) yesterday. On the back of that, has anyone here got one of these set up with Linux? I'm not sure if doing so with it on the network via jetdirect makes the process significantly different vs. attaching it direct to a machine via parallel or RS232 (I last set up a printer via Linux in 1995 or so, I think, and there seems to be quite the range of big bits of software around to handle Linux printing these days). The plain ol' 4 isn't on the hplip supported list (but then nor is it on the unsupported list, either) Maybe it just magically works... cheers Jules From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Mar 2 17:07:38 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 23:07:38 +0000 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362250472.66167.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733DE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/2/13 10:54 AM, "James Gessling" wrote: >This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher. In >1975, in Ghana, I was teaching A level math as a Peace Corps teacher. We >had a whole section on slide rule calculations. Thanks to some agency, I >think UNICEF, we had one of those 6 foot long rules that mounted at the >front of the class. The kids really caught on quick and it was a lot of >fun. Especially as the students figured out other things they could do. > > >Regards, James > > > In 1977, I graduated from high school as the last class to use slide rules instead of calculators. They were throwing away the six foot slide rules used for teaching, and I was gifted with one. Unfortunately, in the subsequent nomadic years of my youth I left it behind at some point. IMHO a slide rule gives one a visual sense of math you just don't get from a calculator, especially if you graduate to one of the more complex models. It's exciting that your Ghana students "figured out other things they could do" - now that's learning. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Mar 2 17:08:48 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 23:08:48 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362248488.73678.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733F4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, er, "discussion": Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much beyond early HP calculators, and only if misspelled. (Note: what's generally considered the first "real" spell checker was created in 1971, on the PDP-10 at SAIL. Early work goes back to the late 1950s/early 1960s. Is that sufficiently vintage?) Some people are very confused about computer security. Some people are very confused about computers that don't run MS-Windows. Really, they exist, and many of them are quite useful. Some of them came before MS-Windows. I can point you at some books about this. With pictures, if needed. And... that seems to be about it. Can we move on, please? -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 2 15:57:45 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 21:57:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Mar 1, 13 09:27:35 pm Message-ID: > Personally, I say every kid should be armed with a basic scientific=0A= > calculator from the moment they start learning. Ban arithmetic and teach=0A= > the fun stuff from the get-go. You'll get more engineers that way!=A0 :)=0A= If you don't understand how to do basic arithmetic by hand, how are you goign to understand how to multiply and divide polynomails in algebra? The methods are precisiet the same as long multiplication and division of numbers If you don't undertand how to add up multi-digit numbers, how will you understand waht a 'carry flag' is? How will you add up `128 bit numbers on your 32bit CPU (or whatever)? By all means use calcualtors. But engineers -- especially -- should understnad how they work. -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 2 16:54:18 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 22:54:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 2, 13 02:16:19 pm Message-ID: > > > Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect board) yesterday. > Self-tests OK but prints with some minor repetitive ghosting on the pages > (it has almost a million pages on the clock). > > There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which might[1] (most > probably!?) be the culprit, but gentle cleaning doesn't seem to get rid of > it; question is, how aggressive can I be with it? I don't know if the > blue-gray color is just a thin coating of something magical, or if it's a > hunk of solid metal which can be scrubbed. Certainly on the CX and SX engines it _is_ a thin coating, I've always assemed to be PTFE. It can tear very easily, when you get black streaks down the printout. How much doe a eeplacement roller cost? Do the PrinterWorks have it? I wonder if heating it (w.g. with a hot air paintstripper) would soften the toner and make it easier to chift? -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Mar 2 17:47:02 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:47:02 -0800 Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8783C33C-DB91-4CB3-BFE3-5F73DAF9BE03@shiresoft.com> On Mar 2, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Personally, I say every kid should be armed with a basic scientific=0A= >> calculator from the moment they start learning. Ban arithmetic and teach=0A= >> the fun stuff from the get-go. You'll get more engineers that way!=A0 :)=0A= > > If you don't understand how to do basic arithmetic by hand, how are you > goign to understand how to multiply and divide polynomails in algebra? > The methods are precisiet the same as long multiplication and division of > numbers Use Macsyma (or the open source version Maxima). [ducks] > > If you don't undertand how to add up multi-digit numbers, how will you > understand waht a 'carry flag' is? How will you add up `128 bit numbers > on your 32bit CPU (or whatever)? Use infinite precision math libraries in various languages (lisp being the obvious one). ;-) > > By all means use calcualtors. But engineers -- especially -- should > understnad how they work. I don't disagree with what you're saying...just couldn't resist pulling your chain. ;-) TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 19:25:23 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:25:23 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733F4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <1362248488.73678.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733F4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Yes, please. -- Wil On Mar 2, 2013 6:17 PM, "Ian King" wrote: > Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, > er, "discussion": > > Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much > beyond early HP calculators, and only if misspelled. (Note: what's > generally considered the first "real" spell checker was created in 1971, > on the PDP-10 at SAIL. Early work goes back to the late 1950s/early > 1960s. Is that sufficiently vintage?) > > Some people are very confused about computer security. > > Some people are very confused about computers that don't run MS-Windows. > Really, they exist, and many of them are quite useful. Some of them came > before MS-Windows. I can point you at some books about this. With > pictures, if needed. > > And... that seems to be about it. Can we move on, please? -- Ian > > > From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Mar 2 19:29:51 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 17:29:51 -0800 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733DE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <1362250472.66167.yahoomailneo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: iank at vulcan.com > Sent: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 23:07:38 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Calculators > > On 3/2/13 10:54 AM, "James Gessling" wrote: > > >This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher. In > >1975, in Ghana, I was teaching A level math as a Peace Corps teacher. > We > >had a whole section on slide rule calculations. Thanks to some agency, > I > >think UNICEF, we had one of those 6 foot long rules that mounted at the > >front of the class. The kids really caught on quick and it was a lot of > >fun. Especially as the students figured out other things they could do. >> >> > >Regards, James >> >> >> > > In 1977, I graduated from high school as the last class to use slide > rules > instead of calculators. They were throwing away the six foot slide rules > used for teaching, and I was gifted with one. Unfortunately, in the > subsequent nomadic years of my youth I left it behind at some point. > > IMHO a slide rule gives one a visual sense of math you just don't get > from > a calculator, especially if you graduate to one of the more complex > models. It's exciting that your Ghana students "figured out other things > they could do" - now that's learning. -- Ian I can tell you, that as late as 1979, basic slide-rule was taught (using the aforementioned six-foot-rule) as part of "Introduction to Scientific Method" which all freshmen had to take at my high school. The rationale was that it taught students to effectively read scales, and to interpolate values between tick marks. It also gave them a sense of what a log scale was, and how values were represented thereon. After 1980, the school focused its energies on building a dominant football team, so the six-foot-rule likely hit the dumpster at that time. Sigh. I'm glad I don't have to deal with high school math/science/whatever in this day and age... ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 20:41:17 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 18:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362278477.12161.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 3:08 PM PST Ian King wrote: >Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, >er, "discussion": > >Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much >beyond early HP calculators, and only if misspelled. (Note: what's >generally considered the first "real" spell checker was created in 1971, >on the PDP-10 at SAIL. Early work goes back to the late 1950s/early >1960s. Is that sufficiently vintage?) > >Some people are very confused about computer security. > >Some people are very confused about computers that don't run MS-Windows. >Really, they exist, and many of them are quite useful. Some of them came >before MS-Windows. I can point you at some books about this. With >pictures, if needed. > >And... that seems to be about it. Can we move on, please? -- Ian Some of the conclusions you claim to have drawn perfectly illustrates why these discussions accomplish zilcho. People get lost in the morasse, ie can't focus, are overly idealistic, and are just prone to hallucinate. As a parting though (imagine that!) there actually is merit to Richard bringing up the focus of the first worm. Besides the internet was, is and likely always will be dominated by UNIX based servers, UNIX and it's derivatives aren't immune from attacks. It's just that generally, I feel, they're the target of more sophisticated exploits, as opposed to every script kid wanting to bring down Windoze boxes. From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 21:40:24 2013 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 20:40:24 -0700 Subject: Shameless Classic Parts Trafficking Redux (M88K) Message-ID: Shameless Classic Parts trafficking Redux More Stuff from the shed.to Ebay DG Aviion M88K 251238413863 HEUKIRON 86K VME 251238419401 Sparc LX 251236748206 DEC VAX VXT 2K+ 251236734890 DEC Alpha Station 200 251237885752 DEC Vax 4000/300 251236580530 As always, if you tell me (before I ship) that you are a part of the list, I throw in some freebies. And to all you Hosers, I can now ship to The Great White North (Canada) : From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 2 22:11:02 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 23:11:02 -0500 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <1362250472.66167.yahoomailneo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> >N0body H0me wrote: >I can tell you, that as late as 1979, basic slide-rule was taught (using the >aforementioned six-foot-rule) as part of "Introduction to Scientific Method" >which all freshmen had to take at my high school. The rationale was that it >taught students to effectively read scales, and to interpolate values between >tick marks. It also gave them a sense of what a log scale was, and how values >were represented thereon. > I really can't remember taking a formal class on how to use a slid rule. I purchased mine in 1956 when calculators probably did not exist. It is probably still around somewhere. One aspect that seems absolutely critical, at least in my opinion, is that when a slide rule is being used, it forces the ability to at least estimate the answer since the slide rule only provides the first 3 digits in the answer, NOT where the decimal point is located. After using the slide rule for a while, I noticed that everyone who used this calculation aid developed the ability to estimate the answer, almost without thinking about how it was done. let alone why it was essential. As a consequence, it became possible, or so it seemed, to pull answers out of a hat that were often quite accurate, often within about 20%. Many individuals could look at a problem and provide what seemed like a guess even though it was just providing an estimate of a slide rule calculation for which, of course, an estimated answer was essential in the first place. Using a calculator robs the individual of the ability to estimate an answer since the decimal point is provided along with the mandatory digits. Using a calculator also seems to encourage an individual to fail to understand that the input data usually has far too little accuracy to justify more than about two digits of accuracy in the final answer. When values accurate to 8 digits always appear as the result, it becomes very easy to forget that the initial data was often accurate to less than 1%. Further, even when the initial data is very accurate, the equations used to provide a solution can often be VERY non-linear. It is possible to produce variations in the result of more than 50% due to variations in the input of much less than 1%, especially when non-linear differential equations are being used. Of course, doing those kind of calculations even with a calculator would take months or years as opposed to what a computer can do. But the same sort of concept applies as to the accuracy of the result with a calculator. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 2 22:19:14 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2013 23:19:14 -0500 Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> >Jason McBrien wrote: >[Snip] > >As an aside: here's an incredible game that teaches 8-year-olds algebra: >http://dragonboxapp.com/ > I attempted to see if a demo was possible along with the possible cost of the application. It seems to still be in development, so perhaps that is the reason. Is there a description and an estimate of how much it costs. SST (Super Star Trek) from the late 1970s (written in F IV) was an excellent game to play on a PDP-11 terminal to learn geometry. Any user had to be able to calculate graph co-ordinates over a two dimensional galaxy of 8 by 8 sectors with each sector having 10 by 10 elements for a total of 800 elements. SST is available at dbit as one of the RT-11 games. Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 2 23:32:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 00:32:41 -0500 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <1362261148.60584.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1362261148.60584.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5132E079.6070001@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2013 04:52 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Speaking of old LaserJets - does anyone aside from me collect them? > I've got a decent collection older models, although somehow I don't > have a LaserJet II or original LaserJet. I do have the oddball 4V > though. I have a LaserJet II that you can have, at least I'm pretty sure I still have it. I don't have an original LaserJet either; I'd like to find one too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 2 23:34:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 00:34:02 -0500 Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2013 11:19 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> As an aside: here's an incredible game that teaches 8-year-olds algebra: >> http://dragonboxapp.com/ >> > I attempted to see if a demo was possible along with the possible > cost of the application. It seems to still be in development, so > perhaps that is the reason. > > Is there a description and an estimate of how much it costs. Early slide rule use apparently doesn't teach people to end questions with question marks though. > SST (Super Star Trek) from the late 1970s (written in F IV) > was an excellent game to play on a PDP-11 terminal to learn > geometry. Any user had to be able to calculate graph co-ordinates > over a two dimensional galaxy of 8 by 8 sectors with each sector > having 10 by 10 elements for a total of 800 elements. > > SST is available at dbit as one of the RT-11 games. One of the terminals on my PDP-11/70 exhibit at VCF-East last year was logged in and running SST, under RSTS/E. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Mar 3 06:51:34 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 13:51:34 +0100 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <51327ADA.5000607@gmail.com> References: <51325E13.3070201@gmail.com> <51327ADA.5000607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1362315094.7655.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> l?r 2013-03-02 klockan 16:19 -0600 skrev Jules Richardson: > On 03/02/2013 02:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect board) yesterday. > > On the back of that, has anyone here got one of these set up with Linux? > I'm not sure if doing so with it on the network via jetdirect makes the > process significantly different vs. attaching it direct to a machine via > parallel or RS232 (I last set up a printer via Linux in 1995 or so, I > think, and there seems to be quite the range of big bits of software arou Over the net the printer looks and behaves lika a SunOS 5 machine with one connected printer so CUPS can treat it as another lp-daemon but CUPS also has a special alternative for JetDirect devices. It is easy. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Mar 3 06:56:15 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 13:56:15 +0100 Subject: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning In-Reply-To: <1362261148.60584.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1362261148.60584.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1362315375.7655.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> l?r 2013-03-02 klockan 13:52 -0800 skrev Mr Ian Primus: > --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Came home with a dumpster-find Laserjet 4 (with jetdirect > > board) yesterday. Self-tests OK but prints with some minor > > repetitive ghosting on the pages (it has almost a million > > pages on the clock). > > > > There's some baked-on toner on the fuser roller which > > might[1] (most probably!?) be the culprit, > > When the teflon coating on the fuser roller starts to deteriorate, some of the toner sticks to it - then it gets re-deposited further on down the page, causing a "repeat". > > It's also possible for a faulty toner cartridge to cause a similar repeat. > > Measure the distance between the initial image, and the repeat. If it's right around 2 1/2", then it's being caused by the fuser. (3 1/8" on a LJ 4+). Repeats that are 3 3/4" or 2" apart are caused by the toner cartridge. I have a LJ4 (with the extra below the unit paper mag) but the printer has a trouble with pulling out the paper from the heating roller. The paper ends up with a lot of wrinkles.... I was gonna try to replace the small rolers who pulls out the print. From thomasmernst at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 11:09:54 2013 From: thomasmernst at gmail.com (thomas ernst) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 07:09:54 -1000 Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? In-Reply-To: References: <757329711804df14f8af9915bc2cc5e1.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> Message-ID: Cool systems! I'd bet this was used for demonstration / teaching purposes. And the missing "manufacturer label" you point out looks just like one of the tags companies or Universities use for inventory control .. Thomas On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 5:22 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi I have one of the SIM4s with the programmer card.The 1702, 1701, 1602, and 1601 all came out at thesame time. They were combinations of open collectoroutputs and latched address inputs.The 1702 was the only one to be popular enough to stay inproduction.The code on your 8008 is most likely code to run the programmerand a few other things. On my 4004, there are 3 EPROMswith the code in them.The input is not likely RS232 but 20 mil current loop.It would have taken BNF data for the EPROM code.It is possible that your system was actually built for Intelas a sales tool.It would be fun to recover the data from your EPROMsMy set of EPROMs has the code to program 1702As.There would have been slight changes to do the 1702s.Mine is operational and I've used it to read 1702s and alsoto program 1702s. I made a simple 20 ma to RS232 interfaceso that I could use my lap top to transfer data.I read the Sac State EPROMs for Druce Dommer withthis.It is also possible that it was put together significantlyafter the boards were built as a way to display thesehistoric computer boards.The additional EPROMs were added as collector itemsover time and not likely to contain meaningful code.This also supports the idea that it was built some timelater, rather than at the same time as the boards werebuilt by Intel.It is a cool system, though.Dwight > > Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 18:48:58 -0600 >> Subject: Any idea who built this 1972 Intel 8008 Micro? >> From: craig at solomonson.net >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> >> In the early 1980's I picked up a micro built around an Intel SIM8-01 >> development system at an electronics swap meet in Minneapolis. The >> enclosure is professionally fabricated in a deep red translucent plastic >> case and uses what appears to be one of the earliest SIM boards issued by >> Intel. All indications is that it was built in the summer or early fall of >> 1972. I would like to find out who or what company might have built this >> system and for what reason. I have posted a YouTube video showing some of >> the features of this computer and a bit of history about it. >> >> You can view the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG6goCIWCYY >> >> What is also interesting is that the guy that sold me this computer had 3 >> micros on his table and all were like new and in working condition. They >> included this Intel system, an Altair 8800 (factory assembled with serial >> #5!), and a beautiful SOL-20. That was a nice little collection for one >> individual to have at that time--seems like he was either well connected >> in the industry at that time or might have been part of some local R&D >> department (CDC, Univac, or Honeywell?) and was helping them clean house! >> >> Let me know if you have ideas or have seen this system before. Thanks! > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 3 08:28:53 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 09:28:53 -0500 Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 03/02/2013 11:19 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>SST (Super Star Trek) from the late 1970s (written in F IV) >>was an excellent game to play on a PDP-11 terminal to learn >>geometry. Any user had to be able to calculate graph co-ordinates >>over a two dimensional galaxy of 8 by 8 sectors with each sector >>having 10 by 10 elements for a total of 800 elements. >> >>SST is available at dbit as one of the RT-11 games. >> > One of the terminals on my PDP-11/70 exhibit at VCF-East last year was >logged in and running SST, under RSTS/E. > Sometimes I test RT-11 programs under the RSTS/E RTS for RT-11 compatibility with RSTS/E. However, there does not seem to be any utility to copy files under V10.1-L of RSTS/E from an RT-11 file structure into the RSTS/E file structure so that the program can be executed and tested. In addition, I do not seem to be able to MOUNT an RT-11 disk under RSTS/E, the pack-id being unknown even when I user /PRIVATE /OVERRRIDE, etc. Maybe I missed that program or maybe the utility was not included with the distribution I am using. What am I missing? Jerome Fine From hachti at hachti.de Sun Mar 3 10:17:58 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 17:17:58 +0100 Subject: DEC TU10 rack (empty) / DEC VT52 available In-Reply-To: <51321CF4.8060105@bluewin.ch> References: <51321CF4.8060105@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <513377B6.6080103@hachti.de> Hi Joos, > Available, for free : empty DEC TU10 rack, with backdoor and sidepanels, in very > good condition. Is it a H960? If yes: What kind of header bezel comes with it? Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From rickb at bensene.com Sun Mar 3 11:08:31 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 09:08:31 -0800 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> References: <1362250472.66167.yahoomailneo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> Message-ID: Jerome Fine wrote: > I > purchased mine in 1956 when calculators probably did not exist. It is > probably still around somewhere. > Desktop electronic calculators (not to mention, handheld electronic calcuators) didn't come into existence until the early 1960's. There were motor-driven mechanical calculators that were pretty sophisticated in '56, but anything that was electronic that behaved like a calculator were in Desk-sized units, such as Monroe's Monrobot calculators (introduced to the world on TV in the '54 election, calculating who would win the presidency), Casio's relay-based "desk" calculators, and a few other machines sprinkled around the world. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 11:57:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 12:57:49 -0500 Subject: accessing RT-11 file structures under RSTS/E, was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> Message-ID: <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2013 09:28 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> One of the terminals on my PDP-11/70 exhibit at VCF-East last year was >> logged in and running SST, under RSTS/E. >> > Sometimes I test RT-11 programs under the RSTS/E RTS for RT-11 > compatibility with RSTS/E. However, there does not seem to be any > utility to copy files under V10.1-L of RSTS/E from an RT-11 file > structure into the RSTS/E file structure so that the program can be > executed and tested. > > In addition, I do not seem to be able to > MOUNT > an RT-11 disk under RSTS/E, the pack-id being unknown even when > I user /PRIVATE /OVERRRIDE, etc. > > Maybe I missed that program or maybe the utility was not included > with the distribution I am using. What am I missing? You can read RT-11 file systems using the program "FIT", which lives in AUXLIB$: $ RUN AUXLIB$:FIT -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 12:05:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 10:05:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362250472.66167.yahoomailneo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130303092023.R78247@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Rick Bensene wrote: > Desktop electronic calculators (not to mention, handheld electronic > calcuators) didn't come into existence until the early 1960's. There > were motor-driven mechanical calculators that were pretty sophisticated > in '56, but anything that was electronic that behaved like a calculator > were in Desk-sized units, such as Monroe's Monrobot calculators > (introduced to the world on TV in the '54 election, calculating who > would win the presidency), Casio's relay-based "desk" calculators, and a > few other machines sprinkled around the world. Not ALL school activities forbade calculators. More than half a century ago, I attended my father's Saturday lecture class on Probability and Statistics. At the conclusion of each lecture, I spent a few hours in "the lab" helping his students with the 100 key calculators. Doing things such as calculating the odds on Craps. In exchange for that work, I was given a few hours access to the stacks of the university library. In my day, slide rules were it. As I mentioned previously, when I was in high school, the SAT and other standardized tests prohibited slide rules (and nobody that I knew had a Kurta), but they ENCOURAGED bringing in scrap paper, including graph paper! AFter my generation folded log graph paper to make impromptu slide rules, they changed the rules. In 1969-1970, in college, I had access to a Wang desktop calculator with nixie tubes, and even a clamshell reader for port-a-punch cards. In 1970 - 1972, at GSFC, in addition to APL, FORTRAN, etc., we had a desktop calculator with a tiny CRT that we rolled around on a typewriter cart. The first time that I saw a handheld calculator (HP) was in 1972. They were ~$350 Then, at my next job, my boss got a 4 function pocket calculator from a friend in France - they stored it in my desk drawer, and listed me on contract bids as "Manager of Computing Resources" But prices came down! In the mid 1970s, I had calculators, and kept buying more as the prices fell. I remember the FIRST <$5 Commodore! calculator. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 12:26:43 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 10:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Did Commie make only one? I have one, don't ask me the specifics. White keys, some red, some blue IIRC. Green display IIRC. 1000$ to the first/last bidder (make that a Pay it Right Now). Mostly for the distinct pleasure of exhuming it from my time capsule. Alright I'll take 950$. I'm not a hard man. From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Mar 3 12:43:37 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:43:37 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 20:32 -0600 3/1/13, wrote: >Offhand I would say yes. Now 20+ years later I don't have any paper >docs of the COCO II and the XT. For Color Computer The Byte article on COCO (original) says 800 mV 1500 bps. Greg Lomont's Color computer guide says: Color BASIC saves a file as a series of blocks, each with 0-255 bytes of data. Some blocks need preceded by a leader to establish timing. Each bit is recorded as a single cycle of a sine-wave. A "1" is a single cycle at 2400 Hz, and a "0" is a single cycle at 1200 Hz. Bytes are stored least significant bit first. Bits are recognized when the sine wave crosses from positive to negative, so loudness is not as important as one might expect. A file consists of: 1. a leader 2. a filename block 3. a 1/2 second gap 4. another leader 5. some number of data blocks 6. an end-of-file block A leader is just hex $80(128 dec) bytes of hex $55 (binary 01010101). A block contains: 1. two "magic" bytes ($55 and $3C) 2. one byte - block type (00=filename, $01=data, $FF=EOF) 3. one byte - data length ($00 to $FF) 4. 0 to 255 bytes - data 5. one byte - checksum (sum of data, type, and length bytes) 6. another magic byte ($55) Filename blocks have $F(15) bytes of data; EOF blocks have zero bytes of data; data blocks have $00-$FF bytes of data indicated by length byte. A filename block contains: 1. eight bytes - the filename 2. one byte - file type ($00=BASIC, $01=data, $02=machine code) 3. one byte - ASCII flag ($00=binary, $FF=ASCII) 4. one byte - gap flag ($00=no gaps, $FF=gaps) (The tech manual incorrectly (?) shows 01 as the code for "no gaps") 5. two bytes - machine code starting address 6. two bytes - machine code loading address There should be no gaps, except preceding the file, and in case the filename blocks requests gaps, in which case there is a 1/2 second gap and leader before each data block and EOF block. Hardware The cassette cable has a 5-pin DIN connector on one end, that plugs into the back of the CoCo; the other end has three earphone-style plugs, that plug into the EAR, AUX (or MIC), and REMOTE jacks. The remote-control plug is smaller than the other two. The other two are differentiated by color: the black one plugs into the EAR jack, while the grey one plugs into AUX. Here is an ASCII drawing of that connector, including a pinout and showing how the pins are numbered. The drawing is of the connector at the end of the cable, with the pins pointing toward you. So if you are looking at the back of the machine, at the connector there, this pinout is backwards. My apologies for the wacky numbering; this is the same numbering as in the CoCo-1 technical manual. ------- Pin# Name Connects to / \___/ \ ---- ------- ----------------------------------- / \ / \ 1 CASSMOT SG stem | | 2 GND B stem, LG stem | 1o o3 | | | 3 CASSMOT SG tip o o \ 4 o 5 / 4 CASSIN B tip \ 2 / \ / 5 CASSOUT LG tip ------- B=black SG=small grey LG=large grey The names are given from the perspective of the computer, so "OUT" means output from the computer, input to the cassette, and it should go into the AUX (or MIC) jack while the cassette is recording. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 12:56:33 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 10:56:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130303105138.G78728@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Did Commie make only one? No, they made more than one. At that price, they sold more than a few. And, even more than one model! The one that I had was small, but very thick. maybe ~3" x ~2.5" x ~1.5" thick > I have one, don't ask me the specifics. White > keys, some red, some blue IIRC. Green display IIRC. 1000$ to the > first/last bidder (make that a Pay it Right Now). Mostly for the > distinct pleasure of exhuming it from my time capsule. Alright I'll take > 950$. I'm not a hard man. I hope that you can get that for it. It'll reinforce the premise that value and price are orthogonal. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 12:57:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 10:57:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130303105640.I78728@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Did Commie make only one? I have one, don't ask me the specifics. White > keys, some red, some blue IIRC. Green display IIRC. 1000$ to the > first/last bidder (make that a Pay it Right Now). Mostly for the > distinct pleasure of exhuming it from my time capsule. Alright I'll take > 950$. I'm not a hard man. The REAL collector item would be the 4004 based Busicom. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 12:57:39 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 10:57:39 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51339D23.9020705@gmail.com> On 3/3/2013 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Did Commie make only one? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators Hope that helps! - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 13:12:36 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 11:12:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130303110748.U78728@shell.lmi.net> [Coco / 5150 cassette transfer] > >Offhand I would say yes. Now 20+ years later I don't have any paper > >docs of the COCO II and the XT. XT is irrelevant, it didn't have a cassette port; just the PC/5150 On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: > For Color Computer [thorough explanation of Coco cassette format] > Hardware > The cassette cable has a 5-pin DIN connector on one end, that plugs > into the back of the CoCo; the IBM didnb't have a cable for the 5150 cassette port! But it used the RS TRS80 cable. Since they used the same connector and pinout, can we assume that they were identical in signals as well :-? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Mar 3 13:17:01 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 13:17:01 -0600 Subject: Slide Rules (was: Calculators) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James (and Chris), I graduated in 1980, McCallum High School, Austin, Texas. We had a slide rule team, with a coach. In addition, my Biology and physics teachers all let me use slide rule for all homework and tests, giving me credit if my answer was within about 0.5% or so. Dunno whether that counts, but if so would push the date out to 1980. I did get a TI-59 (still have it, sticky keyboard and I'll bet the card reader doesn't work) middle of my senior year. That was a pleasant culture shock... I don't know that I ever saw one of the six-foot-long "supercomputers" :-) . At 20:07 -0600 3/2/13, wrote: >This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher.? >In 1975, in Ghana, .... -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 3 12:29:07 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 13:29:07 -0500 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <20130303092023.R78247@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362250472.66167.yahoomailneo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> <20130303092023.R78247@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51339673.4080009@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >In my day, slide rules were it. As I mentioned previously, >when I was in high school, the SAT and other standardized >tests prohibited slide rules (and nobody that I knew had a >Kurta), but they ENCOURAGED bringing in scrap paper, including >graph paper! AFter my generation folded log graph paper to make >impromptu slide rules, they changed the rules. > > I heard about that, but never needed it since slide rules were allowed. >But prices came down! In the mid 1970s, I had calculators, >and kept buying more as the prices fell. I remember the >FIRST <$5 Commodore! calculator. > I have a SHARP ELSIMATE EL-230 which I seem to remember cost about $ 5. It must have been in the 1980s. IT STILL WORKS. I can't see that the screen is also a solar panel - is there another explanation? Jerome Fine From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 13:29:23 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 11:29:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362338963.56724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 10:57 AM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >On 3/3/2013 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Did Commie make only one? > >http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators > >Hope that helps! >- Josh That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get information. Otherwise we'd just log in every morning and greet each other. Doofis butt nugget. From witchy69 at virginmedia.com Sun Mar 3 13:37:29 2013 From: witchy69 at virginmedia.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 19:37:29 +0000 Subject: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? In-Reply-To: <1362261470.21346.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 02/03/2013 21:57, "Chris Tofu" wrote: > preferably not on the west coast. Oh, therefore preferably not in the UK either? I have one 6 feet away from me that's less than well... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 13:41:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 14:41:31 -0500 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5133A76B.8050306@neurotica.com> I graduated from high school in 1987. Nobody had ever heard of a slide rule by that time. They seem to have faded very quickly. -Dave On 03/03/2013 02:17 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > James (and Chris), > I graduated in 1980, McCallum High School, Austin, Texas. We had a > slide rule team, with a coach. In addition, my Biology and physics > teachers all let me use slide rule for all homework and tests, giving me > credit if my answer was within about 0.5% or so. Dunno whether that > counts, but if so would push the date out to 1980. > I did get a TI-59 (still have it, sticky keyboard and I'll bet the > card reader doesn't work) middle of my senior year. That was a pleasant > culture shock... > I don't know that I ever saw one of the six-foot-long > "supercomputers" :-) . > > At 20:07 -0600 3/2/13, wrote: >> This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher.? In >> 1975, in Ghana, .... > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 13:48:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 11:48:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <51339D23.9020705@gmail.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51339D23.9020705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130303114318.D80199@shell.lmi.net> > > Did Commie make only one? > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators My first Commodore calculator was NOT "the first calculator", no even "the first Commodore calculator". The Minuteman 6 was.the first that I ever sae for less than $5 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 13:49:08 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 11:49:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules (was: Calculators) Message-ID: <1362340148.27898.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:17 AM PST Mark Tapley wrote: >James (and Chris), > I graduated in 1980, McCallum High School, Austin, Texas. We had a slide rule team, with a coach. In addition, my Biology and physics teachers all let me use slide rule for all homework and tests, giving me credit if my answer was within about 0.5% or so. Dunno whether that counts, but if so would push the date out to 1980. > I did get a TI-59 (still have it, sticky keyboard and I'll bet the card reader doesn't work) middle of my senior year. That was a pleasant culture shock... > I don't know that I ever saw one of the six-foot-long "supercomputers" :-) . > >At 20:07 -0600 3/2/13, wrote: >> This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher.? In 1975, in Ghana, .... > >-- - Mark 210-379-4635 I think I was required to get a scientific calc in 12th grade (pre-calc, uh, why does that designation not seem right?). Or maybe it was just strongly suggested. Obviously it made sense at that point. Mine was a horizontal Sharp thingamabob. It wasn't the real high end model/s, designated PC-n by Radio Shacj IIRC. I broke the lcd years later, though I could hack in a replacement, but I can't find it. Only the brown plastic slide in case. Cost about 40$. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Large Asteroids headed toward planets >inhabited by beings that don't have >technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 13:59:20 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 13:59:20 -0600 Subject: Slide Rules (was: Calculators) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: slide rules eh? jefferson cr1 and cr2 and the other has fuel and speed time distance direction http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/652/dsc9760v.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8297/dsc9759.jpg From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 14:08:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sharp EL-5100 was Re: Calculators Message-ID: <1362341304.54121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I wanted Josh to be proud of me. I searched out vintage sharp calcs on ebay, not Google/Lord Goozitsu. Mine was the EL-5100. Was nice. Wish I could find mine. Only got the brown case, which is cracked. But so is Josh. Is ebay the new Google/Goozitsu? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 3 14:11:03 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 15:11:03 -0500 Subject: Accessing RT-11 file structures under RSTS/E, was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >On 03/03/2013 09:28 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>Sometimes I test RT-11 programs under the RSTS/E RTS for RT-11 >>compatibility with RSTS/E. However, there does not seem to be any >>utility to copy files under V10.1-L of RSTS/E from an RT-11 file >>structure into the RSTS/E file structure so that the program can be >>executed and tested. >> >>In addition, I do not seem to be able to >>MOUNT >>an RT-11 disk under RSTS/E, the pack-id being unknown even when >>I user /PRIVATE /OVERRRIDE, etc. >> >>Maybe I missed that program or maybe the utility was not included >>with the distribution I am using. What am I missing? >> >> > > You can read RT-11 file systems using the program "FIT", which lives >in AUXLIB$: > >$ RUN AUXLIB$:FIT > THANK YOU!! I found AUXLIB$:FIT, so at least I can move files around. Then I attempted: MOUNT DU1: /OVERRIDE But I still can't MOUNT an RT-11 disk pack. If I don't provide a pack-id, there is an error. Does an RT-11 pack have a standard ID? Under VMS, it used to support the "/FOREIGN" switch for INTERCHANCE, but RSTS/E does not seem to support such a pack. Does anyone have any suggestions? Jerome Fine From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 14:13:56 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:13:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? Message-ID: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:37 AM PST Adrian Graham wrote: >On 02/03/2013 21:57, "Chris Tofu" wrote: > >> preferably not on the west coast. > >Oh, therefore preferably not in the UK either? I have one 6 feet away from >me that's less than well... So fix it! What is wrong with it anyway? It's the only non-2000 TRS-80 that catches my fancy these days. Where have you been anyway? And where's Andrew ("aliensrcool")? Are those of you with A's as their first letter too Aloof to hang out with us?? >-- >Adrian/Witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >collection? > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 14:16:31 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:16:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules Message-ID: <1362341791.52249.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:41 AM PST Dave McGuire wrote: > > I graduated from high school in 1987. Nobody had ever heard of a >slide rule by that time. They seem to have faded very quickly. I graduated in 85. I had one. Never said I did anything with it... I may have learned the very mostest basic function at one point. Couldn't tell you what it was though. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 14:21:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:21:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators Message-ID: <1362342079.19069.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> At this point I'd have to say my dearly departed HP 50G. Loved the look of my 2 semi or entirely dead 49G's. Hated using them though. At some point I really want a 48cx. At that point I'll probably consider my collection complete. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 3 14:22:55 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 12:22:55 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5133B11F.2010003@sydex.com> On 03/03/2013 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >Did Commie make only one? I have one, don't ask me the specifics. White keys, some red, some blue IIRC. Green display IIRC. 1000$ to the first/last bidder (make that a Pay it Right Now). Mostly for the distinct pleasure of exhuming it from my time capsule. Alright I'll take 950$. I'm not a hard man. No, Commodore had several models to choose from. Two data points: (1) Sometime around 1974, I was proudly shown a calculator constructed in a plywood box by an ex co-worker who'd moved on to Commodore. It was her pet programming project--Commodore's first scientific calculator. I don't know what model that prototype eventually turned into. Her twin sister worked for GE and devised the "Jello test" for determining microwave oven radiation patterns. It was unnerving when the two of them were together. One (the programmer) was sweet and cheerful, while the other (the engineer) was acerbic with a very hard edge, having learned to compete in the male-dominated engineering community. Second data point: In the San Jose Town & Country shopping center, in the 70s, there was a store called "Mr. Calculator", who dealt in calculators and the then-new digital watch. I still have the San Jose Mercury News ad offering the watch for something under $20 and that they sold Commodore calculators (note the plural). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 3 14:25:16 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 12:25:16 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5133A76B.8050306@neurotica.com> References: <5133A76B.8050306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5133B1AC.1060006@sydex.com> On 03/03/2013 11:41 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I graduated from high school in 1987. Nobody had ever heard of a > slide rule by that time. They seem to have faded very quickly. Probably like iPads today, slide rules in college were often a target of thieves. That's how I lost my big Pickett aluminum rule, and then later a Post Versalog. Someone just snatched them when my attention was distracted. Some things never change... --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 3 14:45:22 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 15:45:22 -0500 Subject: Accessing RT-11 file structures under RSTS/E, was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5133B662.4030607@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Dave McGuire wrote: > >>On 03/03/2013 09:28 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>>Sometimes I test RT-11 programs under the RSTS/E RTS for RT-11 >>>compatibility with RSTS/E. However, there does not seem to be any >>>utility to copy files under V10.1-L of RSTS/E from an RT-11 file >>>structure into the RSTS/E file structure so that the program can be >>>executed and tested. >>> >>>In addition, I do not seem to be able to >>>MOUNT >>>an RT-11 disk under RSTS/E, the pack-id being unknown even when >>>I user /PRIVATE /OVERRRIDE, etc. >>> >>>Maybe I missed that program or maybe the utility was not included >>>with the distribution I am using. What am I missing? >>> >>> >> >> You can read RT-11 file systems using the program "FIT", which lives >>in AUXLIB$: >> >>$ RUN AUXLIB$:FIT >> > THANK YOU!! I found AUXLIB$:FIT, so at least I can move > files around. > > Then I attempted: > > MOUNT DU1: /OVERRIDE > > But I still can't MOUNT an RT-11 disk pack. If I don't provide a > pack-id, there is an error. > > Does an RT-11 pack have a standard ID? > > Under VMS, it used to support the "/FOREIGN" switch for > INTERCHANCE, but RSTS/E does not seem to support > such a pack. > > Does anyone have any suggestions? As a last resort, I tried to access DU1: within FIT even though the device was not MOUNTed. To my great surprise: IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!! However, as I expected, only the first RT-11 partition can be accessed. FIT can't access other RT-11 files in RT-11 partitions other than Partition Zero . Well, MUCH better than nothing! Jerome Fine From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 3 14:50:21 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:50:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <51339D23.9020705@gmail.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51339D23.9020705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 3/3/2013 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Did Commie make only one? > > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators > /me high-fives Josh :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wilson at dbit.com Sun Mar 3 15:00:32 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:00:32 -0500 Subject: Accessing RT-11 file structures under RSTS/E, was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130303210032.GA16288@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 03:11:03PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >MOUNT DU1: /OVERRIDE > >But I still can't MOUNT an RT-11 disk pack. If I don't provide a >pack-id, there is an error. > >Does an RT-11 pack have a standard ID? > >Under VMS, it used to support the "/FOREIGN" switch for >INTERCHANCE, but RSTS/E does not seem to support >such a pack. In RSTS, mounting is for mounting RSTS RDS volumes only, to be accessed by the regular file system. For raw access, you don't have do to anything, as long as you have privs. FIT can see the disk already. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 3 14:37:31 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 20:37:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733F4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> from "Ian King" at Mar 2, 13 11:08:48 pm Message-ID: > > Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, > er, "discussion": > > Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much That is rather unfari. Note that I have no moaned about it being a single chip, or the use of USB, or... Just that I can't see what the real point of it is. > beyond early HP calculators, and only if misspelled. (Note: what's That is totally incorrect. On-topic things that I like include old HP calculators, old HP computers, PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, BBC Micros (and related machines like the ACW), Philips P800 machines, etc, etc, etc. Off-topic things inlcude Nikon F and F2 cameras, MPP cameras, old telephones, glassfets, Myford lathes and cats. > generally considered the first "real" spell checker was created in 1971, > on the PDP-10 at SAIL. Early work goes back to the late 1950s/early > 1960s. Is that sufficiently vintage?) Now all I have to do is find soembody who will give me a PDP10. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 3 14:41:46 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 20:41:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Calculators [was: Re: Raspberry Pi] In-Reply-To: <8783C33C-DB91-4CB3-BFE3-5F73DAF9BE03@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Mar 2, 13 03:47:02 pm Message-ID: > > > On Mar 2, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Personally, I say every kid should be armed with a basic scientific=0A= > >> calculator from the moment they start learning. Ban arithmetic and teach=0A= > >> the fun stuff from the get-go. You'll get more engineers that way!=A0 :)=0A= > > > > If you don't understand how to do basic arithmetic by hand, how are you > > goign to understand how to multiply and divide polynomails in algebra? > > The methods are precisiet the same as long multiplication and division of > > numbers > > Use Macsyma (or the open source version Maxima). [ducks] > > > > > If you don't undertand how to add up multi-digit numbers, how will you > > understand waht a 'carry flag' is? How will you add up `128 bit numbers > > on your 32bit CPU (or whatever)? > > Use infinite precision math libraries in various languages (lisp being the > obvious one). ;-) > > > > By all means use calcualtors. But engineers -- especially -- should > > understnad how they work. > > I don't disagree with what you're saying...just couldn't resist pulling your > chain. ;-) The point, which I know you'vev grasped, is that somebody had to write those programs and libraries. Somebody had ot design the ALU used in the microprocessor (or if it was designed using a CAD system and taken from said systme's library, then somebody had to write the CAD system and the library). Of course we all use calcualtors, maths libraries, etc without alwys thinking how they work. But at least in my case, I cm, glad I do understnad how they work when I have to fix them. If I didn't understand thingsl ike carrying between digits in adition, I could never repair minicomputers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 3 14:52:08 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 20:52:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <582AE695B25.00000733n0body.h0me@inbox.com> from "N0body H0me" at Mar 2, 13 05:29:51 pm Message-ID: > I can tell you, that as late as 1979, basic slide-rule was taught (using the > aforementioned six-foot-rule) as part of "Introduction to Scientific Method" > which all freshmen had to take at my high school. The rationale was that it > taught students to effectively read scales, and to interpolate values between > tick marks. It also gave them a sense of what a log scale was, and how values > were represented thereon. Another great advantage of slide rules (educationally) is tht they give the mantissa and not the ecxpnent. In other words the user genrally has to do an order-of-magnitude estimate to be able to correctly interpret the slide rule result (there are rules for doing it by rote, but it is easier to do the OOM estimate IMHO). Being able to do such an estiamte is a very useful skill and avoids sillies like the 'genius' who told be the period of a swiming pendulum was a few nanoseconds (!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 3 14:59:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 20:59:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Mar 2, 13 11:11:02 pm Message-ID: > One aspect that seems absolutely critical, at least in my opinion, > is that when a slide rule is being used, it forces the ability to at > least estimate the answer since the slide rule only provides the > first 3 digits in the answer, NOT where the decimal point is > located. I should have read your reply before making essentially the same point myself. > Using a calculator robs the individual of the ability to estimate an > answer since the decimal point is provided along with the mandatory > digits. Using a calculator also seems to encourage an individual to > fail to understand that the input data usually has far too little accuracy > to justify more than about two digits of accuracy in the final answer. This is a classic case of GIGO, of course. One problem with calculators (and HP RPL machines are worse than most in this becuase they will produce complex numbers, not errors, if you take the sqrt of a negative number or arcsin(2) or..) is that in general no matter what you put in you get _an_ answer. It may be incorrect, but there are digits on the display. Doing an order-of-magnitude estimate first will at least let you see if the anser is reasonable. > When values accurate to 8 digits always appear as the result, it > becomes very easy to forget that the initial data was often accurate > to less than 1%. Further, even when the initial data is very accurate, > the equations used to provide a solution can often be VERY non-linear. > It is possible to produce variations in the result of more than 50% > due to variations in the input of much less than 1%, especially when > non-linear differential equations are being used. Of course, doing Indeed. Als, some equations may be mathematically correct but be totally unsuitable for machine calculation. The well-know formula for findign the roots of a quadratic equation can have problems if 4*a*c is small compared to b^2. You end up subtracing 2 nearly equal numbers. The work-around is well-known and quite obvious if you think about it, but an awful lot of people don't think about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 3 15:11:59 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 21:11:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <20130303110748.U78728@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 3, 13 11:12:36 am Message-ID: > IBM didnb't have a cable for the 5150 cassette port! > But it used the RS TRS80 cable. Hnady, that ;-) > > > Since they used the same connector and pinout, can we assume that they > were identical in signals as well :-? Well, the hardware signals are the same apart form the fact that on the 5150 there's a jumper on the motehrboard that sets the output level (PC to recorder signal). BAsically the 2 positions give microphone or line (aux) level. I am not sure about the data encoding. It's in the TechRef, which I'll dig out another time if nobody else has it. I am prrry sure the PCjr encoding is the same as the 5150, but the connector is different (as you'd expect on the PCjr). IIRC, for laoding, the PC did the data decoding entirely in software. For saving, the signal was generated by one of the timers in the 8253 with a lot of softare support. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 15:21:31 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 13:21:31 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <1362341791.52249.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362341791.52249.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Never take your Picket slide rule to the beach!Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 3 15:58:51 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 13:58:51 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1F4FDE64-1A02-4639-8A53-2B9BCD4FC625@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 3, at 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Did Commie make only one? I have one, don't ask me the specifics. > White keys, some red, some blue IIRC. Green display IIRC. 1000$ to > the first/last bidder (make that a Pay it Right Now). Mostly for > the distinct pleasure of exhuming it from my time capsule. Alright > I'll take 950$. I'm not a hard man. As others have pointed out, there were lots and lots of Commie calculators, but their presence in the calculator market actually predates the 70's calculator boom. Their early electronic ones were OEM'd by others though (read: Japanese). Here's my favorite (for some def. of favorite), from 1969, the ugliest electronic calculator ever made: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CommodoreDAC612.html Commodore was a big player in the calculator market wars in the 70's. I suspect it was seeing the writing on the wall for the calculator business that prompted Tramiel to get into the personal computing market with the PET when they did. Seen from the outside it looks like an astute and well-timed business move. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 3 16:11:32 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 14:11:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, >> er, "discussion": >> >> Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much > > That is rather unfari. Note that I have no moaned about it being a single > chip, or the use of USB, or... Just that I can't see what the real point > of it is. > That's simply because you hadn't gotten that far yet. I have ZERO doubt in my mind that you'd get there eventually. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 16:34:37 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:34:37 +0000 Subject: Slide Rules (was: Calculators) In-Reply-To: <1362340148.27898.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Chris Tofu" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 03/03/2013 19:49:08 Subject: Re: Slide Rules (was: Calculators) > > >------------------------------ >On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:17 AM PST Mark Tapley wrote: > >>James (and Chris), >> I graduated in 1980, McCallum High School, Austin, Texas. We had a >>slide rule team, with a coach. In addition, my Biology and physics >>teachers all let me use slide rule for all homework and tests, giving >>me credit if my answer was within about 0.5% or so. Dunno whether that >>counts, but if so would push the date out to 1980. >> I did get a TI-59 (still have it, sticky keyboard and I'll bet the >>card reader doesn't work) middle of my senior year. That was a >>pleasant culture shock... >> I don't know that I ever saw one of the six-foot-long >>"supercomputers" :-) . >> >>At 20:07 -0600 3/2/13, wrote: >>> This leads me to my belief that I was the last slide rule teacher.? >>>In 1975, in Ghana, .... >> >>-- - Mark 210-379-4635 > Possibly, although slide rules were still in use when I started my Maths Degree in 1972. I remember that we were expected to do some Physics as well as Maths and the Physics guy always used to moan because we went off to the Maths Department to use the calculators. We had a room of HP45Cs (I think, they were 45's) which were really lovely. There was also a room full of Nixitube Boroughs which were less good. However both were much quicker than use on slide rules.... ... A couple of years later I sat the UK Radio Amateurs Examination and I sat the first one where you were allowed to use a calculator, so they were obviously getting affordable. > I think I was required to get a scientific calc in 12th grade >(pre-calc, uh, why does that designation not seem right?). Or maybe it >was just strongly suggested. Obviously it made sense at that point. >Mine was a horizontal Sharp thingamabob. It wasn't the real high end >model/s, designated PC-n by Radio Shacj IIRC. I broke the lcd years >later, though I could hack in a replacement, but I can't find it. Only >the brown plastic slide in case. Cost about 40$. > >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Large Asteroids headed toward planets >>inhabited by beings that don't have >>technology adequate to stop them: >> >> Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 3 16:41:12 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 16:41:12 -0600 Subject: IBM Model F (PC 5150) DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <50E3613E.1070603@brutman.com> References: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> <50E248E9.40506@gmail.com> <50E3613E.1070603@brutman.com> Message-ID: <5133D188.4090404@brutman.com> Tying up loose ends ... I was able to repair the DIN connector. It is not museum original anymore, but it works. The details (with pictures) can be found here: http://www.brutman.com/IBM_PC_Keyboard_Plug_Repair/IBM_PC_Keyboard_Plug_Repair.html The short story is, the plug comes apart. Get another DIN connector, hollow out the original IBM housing slightly, and then connect up the innards of the new DIN connector. You can make a pretty decent looking repair this way. Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 16:44:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 17:44:53 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5133D265.3080502@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2013 03:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, >> er, "discussion": >> >> Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much > > That is rather unfari. Note that I have no moaned about it being a single > chip, or the use of USB, or... Just that I can't see what the real point > of it is. ... >> generally considered the first "real" spell checker was created in 1971, >> on the PDP-10 at SAIL. Early work goes back to the late 1950s/early >> 1960s. Is that sufficiently vintage?) > > Now all I have to do is find soembody who will give me a PDP10. You could run simh on a Raspberry Pi.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 16:59:37 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 14:59:37 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362338963.56724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362338963.56724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5133D5D9.8050303@gmail.com> On 3/3/2013 11:29 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 10:57 AM PST Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 3/3/2013 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> Did Commie make only one? >> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators >> >> Hope that helps! >> - Josh > That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get information. No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the answer to with a two second Google search. > Doofis butt nugget. > > What, are you twelve years old? Josh From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 17:38:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 15:38:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ---------------------------- On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:59 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >On 3/3/2013 11:29 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 10:57 AM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> On 3/3/2013 10:26 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> Did Commie make only one? >> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators >> >> Hope that helps! >> - Josh >> That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get information. > >No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the >answer to with a two second Google search. It's more fun to ask. An apparently fun for at least a few to answer. All you do is complain and respond with utterly ridiculous answers. >> Doofis butt nugget. >> >> > >What, are you twelve years old? 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. >Josh From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 16:18:38 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:18:38 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi & Electronic devices and such - calculators, microcomputers & more Message-ID: R. Fogarty writes: ? Knowing how to program a computer may seem like a far-fetched dream for ?ordinary? people. After all, don?t you have to be some kind of genius to manipulate the will of a machine and have it do your bidding?? Well, with Raspberry Pi, no! And most beneficial of all you?ll be in geek heaven. What better way to understanding Big Data today and having a fond and respectful remembrance of classic computing of yesteryear. Or maybe as C. Zarin writes: ?We learn more than we ever wanted to know about things we wish we?d never heard of.? I hope this never comes to pass when it comes to classic/vintage computing. Murray-- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 3 17:47:54 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 15:47:54 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: <1362341791.52249.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5133E12A.9060909@sydex.com> On 03/03/2013 01:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Never take your Picket slide rule to the beach!Dwight ...and never lube your Versalog with cornstarch. On a humid day, it can slow down calculation considerably. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 17:55:34 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 15:55:34 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> On 3/3/2013 3:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> Doofis butt nugget. >>> >>> >> What, are you twelve years old? > > 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. Act like it. - Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 3 18:14:25 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 19:14:25 -0500 Subject: Accessing RT-11 file structures under RSTS/E, was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <20130303210032.GA16288@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> <20130303210032.GA16288@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5133E761.2040807@compsys.to> >John Wilson wrote: >>On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 03:11:03PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>MOUNT DU1: /OVERRIDE >> >>But I still can't MOUNT an RT-11 disk pack. If I don't provide a >>pack-id, there is an error. >> >>Does an RT-11 pack have a standard ID? >> >>Under VMS, it used to support the "/FOREIGN" switch for >>INTERCHANCE, but RSTS/E does not seem to support >>such a pack. >> >In RSTS, mounting is for mounting RSTS RDS volumes only, to be accessed >by the regular file system. For raw access, you don't have do to anything, >as long as you have privs. FIT can see the disk already. > I checked the documentation for FIT after Dave McGuire provided the logical device name (AUXLIB$:) where FIT can be found. (THANK YOU AGAIN, DAVE!). I do not understand why direct access to an RT-11 disk is not mentioned. VMS requires a MOUNT. Probably RSX-11 does as well. In any case, the problem has been solved. BUT, DEC rarely seemed to catch up with the extra bells and enhancements that were needed. EVEN PUTR from dbit has the ability to specify the PART=n when the RT-11 device is used. Why DEC never bothered to add that trivial enhancement seems about par for the course. The same sort of viewpoint exists in the DIR utility in RT-11. I added value to the '/VOLUME[:value[:value...]] " switch to support nested directories (eliminating the requirement to MOUNT the logical disk) where the value is the block number within the previous directory. Sometimes the solution is so trivial. Maybe that is why a small company can be more reliable and better equipped to produce better software. It was not that DEC had poorly designed software - IN FACT DEC software seemed to be about the best there ever was with all the hooks ever needed for enhancements. But the enhancements were so slow to arrive in many cases. Jerome Fine From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 18:16:40 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:16:40 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> References: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 3/3/2013 3:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> >>>> Doofis butt nugget. >>>> >>>> >>> What, are you twelve years old? >> >> 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. > > > Act like it. > > - Josh Josh, I'm surprised you're wasting your time here and haven't simply added Mr Tofu to your kill filter yet. Surprised anyone else bothers humoring him much. Just adds to the high noise level on the list. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 18:31:50 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:31:50 -0800 Subject: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <5132CD56.9040309@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Mar 2, Message-ID: As I recall, there were some simple rulesfor where the slide was to determine decimal points.I used to use them and never had to estimate.Dwight > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > One aspect that seems absolutely critical, at least in my opinion, > > is that when a slide rule is being used, it forces the ability to at > > least estimate the answer since the slide rule only provides the > > first 3 digits in the answer, NOT where the decimal point is > > located. > > I should have read your reply before making essentially the same point > myself. > > > Using a calculator robs the individual of the ability to estimate an > > answer since the decimal point is provided along with the mandatory > > digits. Using a calculator also seems to encourage an individual to > > fail to understand that the input data usually has far too little accuracy > > to justify more than about two digits of accuracy in the final answer. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 3 18:52:50 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:52:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> References: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 3/3/2013 3:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> Doofis butt nugget. >>>> >>>> >>> What, are you twelve years old? >> 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. > > Act like it. > That's asking a lot from a potted plant, Josh. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 19:08:18 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:08:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130303170636.N83867@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Did Commie make only one? > >> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=commodore+calculators > >> Hope that helps! On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > It's more fun to ask. An apparently fun for at least a few to answer. > All you do is complain and respond with utterly ridiculous answers. But, the URL that he provided was chock full of useful links! > >> Doofis butt nugget. > >What, are you twelve years old? > 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. number of years is an inadequate measure of maturity. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 3 19:10:10 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5133E12A.9060909@sydex.com> References: <1362341791.52249.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5133E12A.9060909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130303170934.W83867@shell.lmi.net> > > Never take your Picket slide rule to the beach!Dwight On Sun, 3 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and never lube your Versalog with cornstarch. On a humid day, it can > slow down calculation considerably. . . . and using strong solvents on the scales might make them hard to read From rickb at bensene.com Sun Mar 3 19:48:21 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:48:21 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chris Tofu wrote: > > Did Commie make only one? I have one, don't ask me the specifics. White > keys, some red, some blue IIRC. Green display IIRC. 1000$ to the first/last > bidder (make that a Pay it Right Now). Mostly for the distinct pleasure of > exhuming it from my time capsule. Alright I'll take 950$. I'm not a hard man. Commodore sold a lot of different models of calculators, but interestingly, only toward the end of its calculator business did the company actually make its own machines. Early on, the company imported calculators from Casio in Japan, put Commodore badging on them, and sold them as Commodore machines throughout Commodore's distribution network in North America. It appears that the earliest machine that Commodore sold this was the Casio 101-E (the Export version of the Casio's second calculator, the 101), which Commodore sold as the model 500E (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/commodore500e.html). This relationship with Casio continued for quite some time, but eventually Commodore hooked up with American IC manufacturer AMI, which had developed some low-cost calculator chipsets. Machines made with these chips would be less expensive than importing calculators from Japan. AMI had started up a company called Unicom that manufactured calculators based on the AMI chips, and Commodore signed up as an OEM customer, and the AMI/Unicom-made machines ended up being sold under the Commodore brand. These machines used blue-green, individual vacuum-fluorescent display tubes, and had colorful keycaps (for example, the Commodore C110, http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/commc112.html). Eventually, Commodore ended up buying MOS Technology, an IC maker that had developed some inexpensive single-chip calculator ICs, and built their own facilities for making calculators, but that all happened right about the time of the calculator market shakeout in the mid-1970's, and Commodore just couldn't compete price-wise with the huge glut of cheap calculators made possible by the introduction of Texas Instruments' very inexpensive single-chip ICs. This is when Commodore decided that the calculator business was a sinking ship and moved their product focus to other areas (personal computers). $950 for one of the VF tube Commodore-badged Unicom-made machines is...um...optimistic. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From rickb at bensene.com Sun Mar 3 20:02:23 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 18:02:23 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1F4FDE64-1A02-4639-8A53-2B9BCD4FC625@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1F4FDE64-1A02-4639-8A53-2B9BCD4FC625@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Brent Hilpert wrote: > Here's my favorite (for some def. of favorite), from 1969, the ugliest > electronic calculator ever made: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CommodoreDAC612.html > The guts of this machine were made by Casio -- with the ugly cabinet courtesy of Commodore. I do agree with Brent that this is one of the most unattractive desktop electronic calculators made. The combination of the brown upper case and white lower case, with the funky '70's woodgrain top is just too much. By the way, it'd be very interesting to find out the nomenclature on the circuit boards of the machine. Casio used an internal numbering scheme that usually consisted of a two-digit number, followed by an alphabetic character, followed by a dash, and then the board number. For example 14A-3 would indicate board number 3 of the machine with internal code of 14A. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 3 20:16:51 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 21:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <16eb1.199c6a65.3e655e12@aol.com> we have one com. calc like this one in photo in calc case at museum _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html_ (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html) ed - www.smecc.org From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 20:42:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 18:42:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 6:16 PM PST COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >we have one com. calc like this one in photo >in calc case at museum > >_http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >(http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html) > >ed - www.smecc.org congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 20:55:28 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 21:55:28 -0500 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51340D20.5030509@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2013 09:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> we have one com. calc like this one in photo >> in calc case at museum >> >> _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >> (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html) >> >> ed - www.smecc.org > > congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's AWESOME. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 20:58:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 21:58:31 -0500 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1F4FDE64-1A02-4639-8A53-2B9BCD4FC625@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <157B5141-6BCE-4338-9557-D5701C754068@gmail.com> On Mar 3, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Here's my favorite (for some def. of favorite), from 1969, the ugliest >> electronic calculator ever made: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CommodoreDAC612.html >> > The guts of this machine were made by Casio -- with the ugly cabinet > courtesy of Commodore. > I do agree with Brent that this is one of the most unattractive desktop > electronic calculators made. The combination of the brown upper case and > white lower case, with the funky '70's woodgrain top is just too much. But is it real rosewood? - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 21:10:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:10:08 -0500 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <157B5141-6BCE-4338-9557-D5701C754068@gmail.com> References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1F4FDE64-1A02-4639-8A53-2B9BCD4FC625@cs.ubc.ca> <157B5141-6BCE-4338-9557-D5701C754068@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51341090.8080401@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2013 09:58 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 3, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> Here's my favorite (for some def. of favorite), from 1969, the ugliest >>> electronic calculator ever made: >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CommodoreDAC612.html >>> >> The guts of this machine were made by Casio -- with the ugly cabinet >> courtesy of Commodore. >> I do agree with Brent that this is one of the most unattractive desktop >> electronic calculators made. The combination of the brown upper case and >> white lower case, with the funky '70's woodgrain top is just too much. > > But is it real rosewood? ...rubbed with whale oil... -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 21:10:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 19:10:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362366619.28473.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >> (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html) >> >> ed - www.smecc.org >> >> congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. > > Maybe it's just me, but I think it's AWESOME. > > -Dave But it doesn't even look like a calculator. Far more like a phone. Uniquely horrible. That's not a bad thing though. Don't get the wrong idea. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 3 21:18:57 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 19:18:57 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <51340D20.5030509@neurotica.com> References: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51340D20.5030509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <157FF45D-02C6-4767-B50C-C16BD551B8F5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 3, at 6:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/03/2013 09:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> we have one com. calc like this one in photo >>> in calc case at museum >>> >>> _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/ >>> DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >>> (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/ >>> DSCF1042.jpg.html) >>> >>> ed - www.smecc.org >> >> congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest >> calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. > > Maybe it's just me, but I think it's AWESOME. That's another rebadged Casio: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Casio121B.html (slightly different models). The Casio avoids the fake woodgrain, so between this and the model I mentioned it looks like Commodore is to blame for that. Be grateful they had given up on the fake woodgrain by the time the PETs came out. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 21:38:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:38:39 -0500 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <157FF45D-02C6-4767-B50C-C16BD551B8F5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51340D20.5030509@neurotica.com> <157FF45D-02C6-4767-B50C-C16BD551B8F5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5134173F.2000602@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2013 10:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> we have one com. calc like this one in photo >>>> in calc case at museum >>>> >>>> _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >>>> >>>> (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html) >>>> >>>> >>>> ed - www.smecc.org >>> >>> congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest >>> calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. >> >> Maybe it's just me, but I think it's AWESOME. > > That's another rebadged Casio: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Casio121B.html > (slightly different models). > > The Casio avoids the fake woodgrain, so between this and the model I > mentioned it looks like Commodore is to blame for that. > > Be grateful they had given up on the fake woodgrain by the time the PETs > came out. It's just too cool. I want one! I'll never get one, will I. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rickb at bensene.com Sun Mar 3 22:03:25 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 20:03:25 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <16eb1.199c6a65.3e655e12@aol.com> References: <16eb1.199c6a65.3e655e12@aol.com> Message-ID: > we have one com. calc like this one in photo in calc case at museum > > _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.h > tml_ > (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.h > tml) > Another prime example of a Casio calculator in Commodore clothing. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 3 23:05:34 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 21:05:34 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5134173F.2000602@neurotica.com> References: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51340D20.5030509@neurotica.com> <157FF45D-02C6-4767-B50C-C16BD551B8F5@cs.ubc.ca> <5134173F.2000602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 3, at 7:38 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/03/2013 10:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> we have one com. calc like this one in photo >>>>> in calc case at museum >>>>> >>>>> _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/ >>>>> DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >>>>> >>>>> (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/ >>>>> DSCF1042.jpg.html) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ed - www.smecc.org >>>> >>>> congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest >>>> calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. >>> >>> Maybe it's just me, but I think it's AWESOME. >> >> That's another rebadged Casio: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Casio121B.html >> (slightly different models). >> >> The Casio avoids the fake woodgrain, so between this and the model I >> mentioned it looks like Commodore is to blame for that. >> >> Be grateful they had given up on the fake woodgrain by the time >> the PETs >> came out. > > It's just too cool. I want one! I'll never get one, will I. Well aside from suggesting it looks like something you would observe beside the dirty ashtray at the reception desk of a cheap motel in 1972, while standing on the mottled deep-red-and-gold carpet, a cigarette vending machine just behind you in the lobby finished in that cheap wood panelling of the era .. aside from that, yes, it is cool. The Casio version at least holds a little class sitting on a real wood desk. In addition to the nixies, if the cool factor you're referring to is the side-by-side layout, it is neat and unusual. There were only a few models that were designed that way. Another is the Olivetti Logos-55, e.g.: http://futureness.com/olivetti-logos-5060-calculator/ http://theinvisibleagent.wordpress.com/2009/03/28/mario-bellinis- logos-55-calculator-for-olivetti-late-1960s/ Unfortunately, it's printer-display only, imagine if it had an electronic display. The commodore looks like it would be owned by the same guy that would drive this: http://futureness.com/1965-dodge-deora-concept-truck/ (note rear bumper) Some great computer pics on that site: http://futureness.com/weapons-director-console/ http://futureness.com/buttons/ http://futureness.com/ibm-1620-data-processing-system-1968/ http://futureness.com/cray-y-190a-supercomputer/ http://futureness.com/ibm-360-2/ http://futureness.com/data-acquisition-system/ http://futureness.com/digital-lab-8e/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 3 23:34:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 00:34:19 -0500 Subject: Accessing RT-11 file structures under RSTS/E, was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133E761.2040807@compsys.to> References: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130301203021.GA23036@mail.loomcom.com> <1362202055.2440.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5132CF42.3010504@compsys.to> <5132E0CA.3050108@neurotica.com> <51335E25.4030904@compsys.to> <51338F1D.3080205@neurotica.com> <5133AE57.90502@compsys.to> <20130303210032.GA16288@dbit.dbit.com> <5133E761.2040807@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5134325B.8090905@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2013 07:14 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> In RSTS, mounting is for mounting RSTS RDS volumes only, to be accessed >> by the regular file system. For raw access, you don't have do to >> anything, >> as long as you have privs. FIT can see the disk already. >> > I checked the documentation for FIT after Dave McGuire provided > the logical device name (AUXLIB$:) where FIT can be found. > (THANK YOU AGAIN, DAVE!). It's my pleasure to help. > I do not understand why > direct access to an RT-11 disk is not mentioned. VMS requires > a MOUNT. Probably RSX-11 does as well. RSTS is a bit different. As John explained, MOUNT is a filesystem access thing in RSTS, not a device access thing. > In any case, the problem has been solved. BUT, DEC rarely > seemed to catch up with the extra bells and enhancements > that were needed. EVEN PUTR from dbit has the ability > to specify the PART=n when the RT-11 device is used. Why > DEC never bothered to add that trivial enhancement seems about > par for the course. The same sort of viewpoint exists in the DIR > utility in RT-11. I added value to the '/VOLUME[:value[:value...]] " > switch to support nested directories (eliminating the requirement to > MOUNT the logical disk) where the value is the block number > within the previous directory. Sometimes the solution is so trivial. Well, think of it this way. FITS is a file interchange utility; most people used it for things like floppy disks. In a production PDP-11 installation, I think it would be pretty unusual to have large (i.e., large enough to have logical disks) RT-11 installation on a drive(s) attached to a RSTS system. It was typically one or the other. Since RSTS' RT-11 runtime system gives you most of the facilities of RT-11 anyway, including running most RT-11 binaries, there's even less reason to have a full RT-11 installation sitting on another drive attached to a system that usually runs RSTS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 4 00:04:21 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:04:21 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362335203.49121.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1F4FDE64-1A02-4639-8A53-2B9BCD4FC625@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <14209F31-2F42-4698-95D6-8915E915A2E7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 3, at 6:02 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Here's my favorite (for some def. of favorite), from 1969, the >> ugliest >> electronic calculator ever made: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CommodoreDAC612.html >> > The guts of this machine were made by Casio -- with the ugly cabinet > courtesy of Commodore. > I do agree with Brent that this is one of the most unattractive > desktop > electronic calculators made. The combination of the brown upper > case and > white lower case, with the funky '70's woodgrain top is just too much. > > By the way, it'd be very interesting to find out the nomenclature > on the > circuit boards of the machine. Casio used an internal numbering > scheme > that usually consisted of a two-digit number, followed by an > alphabetic > character, followed by a dash, and then the board number. For example > 14A-3 would indicate board number 3 of the machine with internal > code of > 14A. Hi Rick, I'll open it up sometime soon and check the board labelling and let you know. I knew it was Japanese design/manufacture by the construction and ICs, but I didn't know which manufacturer. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Mar 4 00:33:07 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:33:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1827.3372a733.3e659a23@aol.com> Message: 27 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 21:55:28 -0500 From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <51340D20.5030509 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 03/03/2013 09:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> we have one com. calc like this one in photo >> in calc case at museum >> >> _http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html_ >> (http://www.burninghorizon.com/gallery2/v/cons/eccc2010/DSCF1042.jpg.html) >> >> ed - www.smecc.org > > congratulations Ed. that is unquestionably the funkiest ugliest calculator I personally have ever seen. Egads. > Maybe it's just me, but I think it's AWESOME. > -Dave -- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA I LOVE THE CLUNKY OL' THING! Really need to find some data on it! Someone gave it to me as a gift fro the computer display we had back in the 80s at our computer business and it moved over into the museum side of things now! Does anyone have data on it!? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Mar 4 00:47:19 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 07:47:19 +0100 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] Message-ID: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> On 03/02/2013 04:52 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Speaking of old LaserJets - does anyone aside from me collect them? > I've got a decent collection older models, although somehow I don't > have a LaserJet II or original LaserJet. I do have the oddball 4V > though. Yep, I have to admit that I also collect printers, and not just one series at that... I do have some rather common models as "workhorses" (NEC P2200, LJ3, LJ4, -L, -M plus) or because I was given them and couldn't bring myself to throwing them out yet (far too many HP, Epson and Canon inkjets) but tend to focus on exots and niche models otherwise - NEC CP7 and Star LC24 with their multizone color ribbon, Citizen Overture and Sharp JX lasers which very visibly are early copier descendents, two OKI linear LED array printers, one of the infamous Tektronix "edible solid ink" power-hogs (a 340 I think; wish I could scrounge up a few reasonably priced ink sticks for that one, hint hint!), the "professional" HP Deskjet 1200 and 1600 models. Also three thermo-transfer units for various print sizes (all made by Mitsubishi, I think, two of them large flat things close to 19" format, one smaller desktop unit), which while primary intended for video still printing, also have parallel in! terfaces, but with consumables prohibitively costly for any kind of operation). What I'm missing yet is a "real" daisywheel printer (I have both a Triumph-Adler and an IBM typewriter with bolt-on interface boards - not that I would mind having a Diablo terminal at some time too), any sort of High Speed Printer from the olden days (drum, chain, belt, shuttle, or single-line needle) or truly esoteric stuff like the (DataProducts) hydraulic driven needle printer our local university collection has. Happy printing, guys! So long, Arno From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 4 01:45:14 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 23:45:14 -0800 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> Message-ID: <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> On 03/03/2013 10:47 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > What I'm missing yet is a "real" daisywheel printer (I have both a > Triumph-Adler and an IBM typewriter with bolt-on interface boards - > not that I would mind having a Diablo terminal at some time too), any > sort of High Speed Printer from the olden days (drum, chain, belt, > shuttle, or single-line needle) or truly esoteric stuff like the > (DataProducts) hydraulic driven needle printer our local university > collection has. I can't give the darned things away. I have both a Qume and a AT&T-badged daisywheel at the moment with absolutely no one willing to spring to ship the the things. My favorite workhorse small printer was the Teletype Model 40 line printer. It would just run and run and could sit on a tabletop. Multipass dot-matrix with downloadable NLQ fonts are another soon-to-be-forgotten technology. I think Sanders started that one... --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 4 01:54:25 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 23:54:25 -0800 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> Message-ID: <2D024737-4A10-4379-9810-5E684031C784@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 3, at 10:47 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > Yep, I have to admit that I also collect printers, and not just one > series at that... I do have some rather common models as > "workhorses" (NEC P2200, LJ3, LJ4, -L, -M plus) or because I was > given them and couldn't bring myself to throwing them out yet (far > too many HP, Epson and Canon inkjets) but tend to focus on exots > and niche models otherwise - NEC CP7 and Star LC24 with their > multizone color ribbon, Citizen Overture and Sharp JX lasers which > very visibly are early copier descendents, two OKI linear LED array > printers, one of the infamous Tektronix "edible solid ink" power- > hogs (a 340 I think; wish I could scrounge up a few reasonably > priced ink sticks for that one, hint hint!), the "professional" HP > Deskjet 1200 and 1600 models. Also three thermo-transfer units for > various print sizes (all made by Mitsubishi, I think, two of them > large flat things close to 19" format, one smaller desktop unit), > which while primary intended for video still printing, also have > parallel in! > terfaces, but with consumables prohibitively costly for any kind > of operation). > > What I'm missing yet is a "real" daisywheel printer (I have both a > Triumph-Adler and an IBM typewriter with bolt-on interface boards - > not that I would mind having a Diablo terminal at some time too), > any sort of High Speed Printer from the olden days (drum, chain, > belt, shuttle, or single-line needle) or truly esoteric stuff like > the (DataProducts) hydraulic driven needle printer our local > university collection has. Glad to hear somebody is. What about teletypes as printing mechanisms? I can think of three mechanisms offhand: the typewriter style, the type block, and the type cylinder. I had a selectric-mechanism printer-only (no keyboard) (was used for printing airline tickets or boarding passes) 10 or 15 years ago, which I threw out (regrettably). Haven't even seen a daisy-wheel printer since about 1982. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 08:04:40 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:04:40 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 February 2013 17:50, Murray McCullough wrote: Because your quoting is all over the place, I am not certain which bit you wrote, so I am going to assume that it's the part under the line of stars... > ****************************************************************************************************** > > Past and the future of computing is forever changing as what we > believe to be true of the past isn?t always right. Something comes > along and revision is necessary. One more thing; I apologize for > bringing Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? but I have > to add this: Is the Raspberry Pi something we want to experience? Can > we teach kids how computers work today? Is there a need to do this! As > far as I can determine they want them to work when they turn them on; > not to know how they do something! Just do it! That?s their attitude > and mass-marketers know this. Sorry about this rant. To answer someone else's objection to my earlier point - that a BBC Micro isn't a computer any more, as it's too limited to do anything that forms part of 21st century computing, from opening a .DOC or a .PDF to rendering a JPG to opening a web page to running a Java applet... The Rpi is an attempt to make a desktop computer - GUI, desktop, WWW, USB ports etc. - for the lowest possible price, using as little power as reasonably possible, so that it needs no cooling, can run from batteries or solar power, is entirely solid-state with no moving parts: kid-friendly, developing-world friendly, environmentally-friendly, works with plain COTS parts and peripherals and is so cheap as to be disposable. But you raise an interesting point: > I?ll add this: No Internet; no multi-media may be what people want: > A 1980?s computing technology where word processing, spreadsheet(ing) > and database(ing) is just what many want! Well, actually, yes, perhaps so. I don't think it's a widespread want, no, but I think that there is room for a gadget that is perhaps a modern Amstrad PCW rather and a modern Sinclair Spectrum. In my view, the Rpi is the Spectrum /de nos jours./ In its time, the Spectrum ticked all the boxes for a 1982 home computer at the lowest possible price: * colour graphics * sound * the standard software of the time, i.e., a BASIC interpreter * built-in keyboard that was just barely usable & a step up from a membrane * drove a TV and a cassette recorder and nothing else * had an optional printer * had a single expansion port, but one that was open enough to drive almost any peripheral the 3rd party market could come up with The Rpi is the same. Just enough RAM, just enough storage in the universal format, the most forward-looking standard display output, the minimum useful number of the most standard ports, just quick enough to run the standard software - i.e. a desktop OS & a web browser. The Amstrad PCW was something different. It was just enough computer to *work* on. To perform a useful role in business. It had almost /less/ sound and graphics than the 3Y older Spectrum. I wonder if a teaching computer might take a different view from the modern OS - i.e. perhaps something like the original vision of Jef Raskin for a computer that ran entirely in a text editor with no discrete "apps". Or, a modern re-implementation of a Lisp Machine or Xerox Smalltalk box: a mouse-and-keyboard-driven GUI, but the whole user-visible OS in a human-readable high-level language that people could read and modify the code of as it was working. Lisp is a bit arcane - Dylan seems like the best possible contender to me. However, I do see, for a machine to be of any possible use, that the ability to cope with de facto C21 standards is a sine qua non. * FAT16, FAT32 * MS Office formats * Zip & other common compression tools * TCP/IP, HTTP, SMTP, POP3/IMAP * HTML 5 This forms quite a high barrier to entry. For instance, Acorn RISC OS doesn't really qualify any more. It can't do Javascript so much of Web 2 is inaccessible from it, for instance. It doesn't understand most of the standard file-formats out there as it has its own weird 1980s versions of them all. OTOH, considered as a 1980s single-tasking OS which fits in 8MB or so of ROM, it comes closer than anything else that I know. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 08:06:08 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:06:08 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733F4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <1362248488.73678.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D733F4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 2 March 2013 23:08, Ian King wrote: > Would this thread please die? What we've learned from this interminable, > er, "discussion": > > Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much > beyond early HP calculators, and only if misspelled. (Note: what's > generally considered the first "real" spell checker was created in 1971, > on the PDP-10 at SAIL. Early work goes back to the late 1950s/early > 1960s. Is that sufficiently vintage?) > > Some people are very confused about computer security. > > Some people are very confused about computers that don't run MS-Windows. > Really, they exist, and many of them are quite useful. Some of them came > before MS-Windows. I can point you at some books about this. With > pictures, if needed. > > And... that seems to be about it. Can we move on, please? -- Ian [Guffaw] Excellent summary. Well put! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 4 09:46:41 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 09:46:41 -0600 Subject: Memorex/Telex keyboards Message-ID: <005201ce18ef$7732ee80$6598cb80$@com> We found the following old keyboards this Saturday, buried in the keyboard room. Memorex/Telex 122 key 211292-002 or 952563-001, qty 13 complete Telex, no part number, qty 2, std XT 5-pin DIN, 10 function keys on the left, numeric keypad on the right. 1 is missing the spacebar. No way to test these, sold as-is. Make offers? Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6146 - Release Date: 03/03/13 From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 4 09:47:21 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:47:21 -0800 Subject: Anti-Virus Message-ID: Good morning, Good progress was made yesterday with the Anti-Virus. The Windows 2003 server software was reloaded in "repair" mode on the server. Then the new server-side anti-virus was successfully installed and is running properly. All files on the server are now properly protected. The Email anti-spam and anti-virus was also updated successfully. The only thing that remains is to push the new version of the anti-virus software to the desktop computers. That is something that I'll be working on this evening. Please still remain vigilant about websites and Email until the workstation software can be updated on each of your computers. The risk is greatly reduced with the Email anti-virus running, as well as the anti-virus running on the server, but there still exists some risk of a desktop computer getting infected, so please be careful. I expect that I should have the new version rolled out to the desktop computers this evening. Thank you, -Rick B. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 4 10:15:41 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 08:15:41 -0800 Subject: Anti-Virus Message-ID: <001901ce18f3$86b3696c$050aa8c0@bensene.com> My apologies for the misdirected email to the list. Rick Bensene -----Original Message----- From: Rick Bensene [rickb at bensene.com] Received: Monday, 04 Mar 2013, 7:57am To: ralph at ppmfg.com [ralph at ppmfg.com]; cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org]; stan at ppmfg.com [stan at ppmfg.com]; gloria at ppmfg.com [gloria at ppmfg.com]; kathy at ppmfg.com [kathy at ppmfg.com] Subject: Anti-Virus Good morning, Good progress was made yesterday with the Anti-Virus. The Windows 2003 server software was reloaded in "repair" mode on the server. Then the new server-side anti-virus was successfully installed and is running properly. All files on the server are now properly protected. The Email anti-spam and anti-virus was also updated successfully. The only thing that remains is to push the new version of the anti-virus software to the desktop computers. That is something that I'll be working on this evening. Please still remain vigilant about websites and Email until the workstation software can be updated on each of your computers. The risk is greatly reduced with the Email anti-virus running, as well as the anti-virus running on the server, but there still exists some risk of a desktop computer getting infected, so please be careful. I expect that I should have the new version rolled out to the desktop computers this evening. Thank you, -Rick B. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 10:35:30 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:35:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anti-Virus In-Reply-To: <001901ce18f3$86b3696c$050aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <001901ce18f3$86b3696c$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <20130304083217.U96791@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Rick Bensene wrote: > My apologies for the misdirected email to the list. > Rick Bensene But, unlike college administrators, there was no attempt to blame the error on "a virus" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 12:15:29 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 13:15:29 -0500 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't give the darned things away. I have both a Qume and a AT&T-badged > daisywheel at the moment with absolutely no one willing to spring to ship > the the things. I used to use a daisywheel printer at work in 1984, but even I would pause at the shipping cost of one. They aren't light. About the only one I'd even consider taking on (and that's *consider*, mind you) is one that worked with WPS-8 and the LPQ8 interface. I don't remember the exact DEC model number, but they bought someone's daisywheel printer and mounted it into a rubber-rimmed hole in a small rolly office supply cabinet as their high-quality (non-dot-matrix) printer option for WPS. It's heavy enough that it would have to go palletized via Craters and Freighters or some similar service. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 4 12:43:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 13:43:56 -0500 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362364969.42842.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51340D20.5030509@neurotica.com> <157FF45D-02C6-4767-B50C-C16BD551B8F5@cs.ubc.ca> <5134173F.2000602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5134EB6C.6060006@neurotica.com> On 03/04/2013 12:05 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> That's another rebadged Casio: >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Casio121B.html >>> (slightly different models). >>> >>> The Casio avoids the fake woodgrain, so between this and the model I >>> mentioned it looks like Commodore is to blame for that. >>> >>> Be grateful they had given up on the fake woodgrain by the time the PETs >>> came out. >> >> It's just too cool. I want one! I'll never get one, will I. > > Well aside from suggesting it looks like something you would observe > beside the dirty ashtray at the reception desk of a cheap motel in 1972, > while standing on the mottled deep-red-and-gold carpet, a cigarette > vending machine just behind you in the lobby finished in that cheap wood > panelling of the era .. aside from that, yes, it is cool. ROFL!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 14:54:03 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 14:54:03 -0600 Subject: Anti-Virus In-Reply-To: <20130304083217.U96791@shell.lmi.net> References: <001901ce18f3$86b3696c$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <20130304083217.U96791@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <513509EB.2080308@gmail.com> On 03/04/2013 10:35 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Rick Bensene wrote: >> My apologies for the misdirected email to the list. >> Rick Bensene > > But, unlike college administrators, > there was no attempt to blame the error on "a virus" Well, it was obviously a network misconfiguration :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 4 14:24:08 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:24:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362342079.19069.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Mar 3, 13 12:21:19 pm Message-ID: > > > At this point I'd have to say my dearly departed HP 50G. Loved the > look of my 2 semi or entirely dead 49G's. Hated using them though. I bougth the first HP49G I saw. The documentation was non-existant, and it was ridiculously buggy (to the extent that some advertised features did nto exist, others werr unusable). After a few firmware upgrades (and HP made this deliberately difficult if you didn't run a proprietory OS), it was useable, but never really pleasant. I still use it, simply because of the vast range of useful fucntions but... > > At some point I really want a 48cx. At that point I'll probably > consider my collection complete. Waht is a 48CX? I know what a 41CX is -- I have a couple. I know what a 48SX is (I boguth the first one I saw...) and a 48GX (I was given one). All of the mre nice machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 4 14:41:11 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:41:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5133E12A.9060909@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 3, 13 03:47:54 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/03/2013 01:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Never take your Picket slide rule to the beach!Dwight > > ...and never lube your Versalog with cornstarch. On a humid day, it can > slow down calculation considerably. Iwould also avoid 'lubricating' it with isocyano acrylic hydro-copolymerising adhesive... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 4 14:43:29 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:43:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133D5D9.8050303@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Mar 3, 13 02:59:37 pm Message-ID: > > That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get information. > > No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the > answer to with a two second Google search. I shall remembr this next time somebody asks a hardware quesiton on PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, HP9800s, etc. The scheamtics are on bitsavers or wherever, and that's all you need to find the problem... Geting back to Commodore calcualtors, how many RPN models did they make. They made at least one, I have an example of it. I think 3 level stack, and nowehre neasre as nice to use an an old HP, but still useable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 4 14:55:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:55:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 4, 13 01:15:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I can't give the darned things away. I have both a Qume and a AT&T-badged > > daisywheel at the moment with absolutely no one willing to spring to ship > > the the things. > > I used to use a daisywheel printer at work in 1984, but even I would > pause at the shipping cost of one. They aren't light. > > About the only one I'd even consider taking on (and that's *consider*, > mind you) is one that worked with WPS-8 and the LPQ8 interface. I > don't remember the exact DEC model number, but they bought someone's > daisywheel printer and mounted it into a rubber-rimmed hole in a small > rolly office supply cabinet as their high-quality (non-dot-matrix) > printer option for WPS. It's heavy enough that it would have to go > palletized via Craters and Freighters or some similar service. The daisywheel printer that I would like to find (although how I would get ti shipped is another matter) is the HP9871. It was commonly driven my an HP9830 (and I ahve the itnerface for it). It's a very odd design. Msot diasywheel printers have a motor to move the carriage and a motro to spinf the daisywheel, the latter motor being mounted on the carriage. The HP9871 has 2 motors alrightm, but they're both o nthe chassis. If they turn in the same direction the carriage moves. If they turn in oppsoite diractions the daisywheel spins. All done with a long toothed belt that runs about 4 times acocross the chassis. And that alas is the problem. AFAIN no such belts have survived, all have decayed iwth age. I would like to see if there is any workaround.... -tony From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 15:23:56 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 16:23:56 -0500 Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362342079.19069.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 48GX. Replaced the 48S my friend lost at college. Still have it, still runs great. I even use the iPhone emulator for when it's not handy, though the UI is dodgy. I still have a soft spot for my old Tandy PC-7, which was my first programmable calculator. Just having something portable that I could program was amazing, never-mind it was a rather awful machine. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 15:50:46 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 13:50:46 -0800 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <5133D5D9.8050303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get > information. > > > > No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the > > answer to with a two second Google search. > > > I shall remembr this next time somebody asks a hardware quesiton on > PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, HP9800s, etc. The scheamtics are on bitsavers or > wherever, and that's all you need to find the problem... > Yes, Tony. Asking a question or looking for advice about specific hardware behavior after doing a fair amount of research on my own is -clearly- the same thing as asking a question answered by just entering the search term into Google. Thanks for clearing that up. - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 16:13:35 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:13:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130304141202.U1518@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > Geting back to Commodore calcualtors, how many RPN models did they make. > They made at least one, I have an example of it. I think 3 level stack, > and nowehre neasre as nice to use an an old HP, but still useable. The Commodore Minuteman 6 was crap. But, it was the first time that I saw a calculator for less than $5. However, the Minuteman 6X was probably ALSO crap. BUT, it was RPN. I never saw it for $5. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 16:15:12 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:15:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators Message-ID: <1362435312.43248.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 12:24 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: >I bougth the first HP49G I saw. The documentation was non-existant, and >it was ridiculously buggy (to the extent that some advertised features >did nto exist, others werr unusable). After a few firmware upgrades >(and HP made this deliberately difficult if you didn't run a proprietory >OS), it was useable, but never really pleasant. I still use it, simply >because of the vast range of useful fucntions but... The question is though why so many people got duped into buying an "updated" model, with the same chip running at the same speed. Other then that it's appearance bloody rocked. 2.5 megs of memory. Endlessly clearing it's stack though. >> At some point I really want a 48cx. At that point I'll probably >> consider my collection complete. > >Waht is a 48CX? I know what a 41CX is -- I have a couple. I know what a >48SX is (I boguth the first one I saw...) and a 48GX (I was given one). >All of the mre nice machines. I meant 41CX. Everybody loves the 48G series I'm sure. But so slow... But with thw G,G+,GX at least, you don't get duped. I used to have a G and.GX. 49G had lots more memory though. Maybe I'll just buy another 50g and be happy... >-tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 16:21:26 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:21:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362435686.73462.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 12:43 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: >> > That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get information. >> >> No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the >> answer to with a two second Google search. > > >I shall remembr this next time somebody asks a hardware quesiton on >PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, HP9800s, etc. The scheamtics are on bitsavers or >wherever, and that's all you need to find the problem... Maybe he meant logarithmic moron. That's an honest mistake (for those who work, though I use the term loosely, at MalGrowthLoft) and much less insulting. I think. Maybe it's a complement even. Shout out to all the other Logarithmic Morons out there! >-tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 16:23:38 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:23:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules Message-ID: <1362435818.20630.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 12:41 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 03/03/2013 01:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> > Never take your Picket slide rule to the beach!Dwight >> >> ...and never lube your Versalog with cornstarch. On a humid day, it can >> slow down calculation considerably. > > Iwould also avoid 'lubricating' it with isocyano acrylic >hydro-copolymerising adhesive... >-tony Oh I have to disagree there. Dip it in that crap then lay it on the desk. I guarantee it'll never get stolen. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 16:48:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:48:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <1362435686.73462.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362435686.73462.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130304144138.H1661@shell.lmi.net> > >> No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the > >> answer to with a two second Google search. On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Maybe he meant logarithmic moron. That's an honest mistake (for those > who work, though I use the term loosely, at MalGrowthLoft) and much less > insulting. I think. Maybe it's a complement even. > Shout out to all the other Logarithmic Morons out there! No, he did mean "logorrheic". http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=logorrheic From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 16:49:50 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:49:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <1362435818.20630.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362435818.20630.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130304144903.U1661@shell.lmi.net> > > Iwould also avoid 'lubricating' it with isocyano acrylic > >hydro-copolymerising adhesive... On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Oh I have to disagree there. Dip it in that crap then lay it on the > desk. I guarantee it'll never get stolen. around here, that's a way to lose a desk. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 17:01:39 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:01:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <1362435818.20630.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362435818.20630.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130304150053.V1661@shell.lmi.net> > > Iwould also avoid 'lubricating' it with isocyano acrylic > >hydro-copolymerising adhesive... On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Oh I have to disagree there. Dip it in that crap then lay it on the > desk. I guarantee it'll never get stolen. Keep your hand on it until the glue has set. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 17:24:41 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:24:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362439481.24176.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> Shout out to all the other Logarithmic Morons out there! > >No, he did mean "logorrheic". >http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=logorrheic look who's logorrheiing From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 17:26:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:26:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules Message-ID: <1362439606.14652.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 2:49 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Iwould also avoid 'lubricating' it with isocyano acrylic >> >hydro-copolymerising adhesive... > >On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Oh I have to disagree there. Dip it in that crap then lay it on the >> desk. I guarantee it'll never get stolen. > >around here, that's a way to lose a desk. Defeats the purpose of stealing a slide rule though. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the desk w/o the funky contraption stuck to it? You in Oakland Fred? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 17:28:34 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:28:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules Message-ID: <1362439714.15772.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 3:01 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Iwould also avoid 'lubricating' it with isocyano acrylic >> >hydro-copolymerising adhesive... >On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Oh I have to disagree there. Dip it in that crap then lay it on the >> desk. I guarantee it'll never get stolen. > >Keep your hand on it until the glue has set. But then I get stolen. But there goes that logoerria again. Fred started it. > > From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 17:32:12 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:32:12 -0600 Subject: 3/9/13 19th Annual Antique Science & Retro-Tech show & swap meet this weekend Message-ID: Heads up for folks in the DFW area. Nice show full of vintage and antique scientific equipment. Been there quite a few times and always interesting stuff on the tables for sale. ANTIQUE SCIENCE & RETRO-TECH SHOW & SWAP MEETis this coming weekend in Irving, TX. DFW Airport Hotel 972-399-1010 4440 W. Airport Freeway (Hwy 183) Irving, TX exit Valley View Lane 10:00 am to 4:00 pm $5.00 ADMISSION From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Mar 4 17:40:21 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:40:21 -0300 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303042340.r24NeYnb030455@mx1.ezwind.net> Liam Proven wrote on Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:04:40 +0000: > In my view, the Rpi is the Spectrum /de nos jours./ Exactly. And that is a good thing! The project's creators just keep mentioning the BBC because that is what they happened to have as children and because they are interested in classrooms instead of just homes. > I wonder if a teaching computer might take a different view from the > modern OS - i.e. perhaps something like the original vision of Jef > Raskin for a computer that ran entirely in a text editor with no > discrete "apps". Or, a modern re-implementation of a Lisp Machine or > Xerox Smalltalk box: a mouse-and-keyboard-driven GUI, but the whole > user-visible OS in a human-readable high-level language that people > could read and modify the code of as it was working. Lisp is a bit > arcane - Dylan seems like the best possible contender to me. Since I design computers for children using a Smalltalk microprocessor, I can hardly be expected to have an impartial opinion about this. I think there is room for the One Laptop Per Child, for the Raspberry Pi, for the Arduino and also for a machine like you describe. If you give computers to a million children and only one of those wants to find out how the processor works and how to modify it, then they should be able to do it. It has been suggested on this list that this could be achieved with classic TTL based minicomputers, but I see a modern design built with FPGAs as a good option. -- Jecel p.s.: this email was written in Celeste, a Smalltalk application From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Mar 4 17:26:07 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:26:07 -0300 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> Tony Duell wrote on Sun, 3 Mar 2013 20:37:31 +0000 (GMT): > > Tony doesn't like RPi. Not surprising, it seems Tony doesn't like much > > That is rather unfari. Note that I have no moaned about it being a single > chip, or the use of USB, or... Just that I can't see what the real point > of it is. The project's creators have told the story many times, but have yet to reach a wider audience so this is a fair comment. Here is what they claim: Comparing the the group of students applying for computer science at the University of Cambridge in 2005 with those who had applied in 1995 they noted that there were half as many and that they didn't know how to program while those in the older group did. This seemed odd given that the younger generation had grown up in a world where computers were so much more common, but the cheapest computers in the first half of the 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except programming in Basic while the cheapest computers in the first half of the 1990s cost $2000 and didn't have a built-in language, but did have a huge software library. The $2000 PC was a complete system, while the $100 computer was just the machine itself, but the comparison isn't totally unfair if you could find the rest for "free" around the house, like a TV set and a tape recorder. So the point of the Raspberry Pi is to give today's children what the 1995 group had had and the 2005 didn't and see if they could reverse the trend they had observed. If they machine is also interesting to other people and for other reasons, then so much the better. But none of those other reasons are the point. A great way of seeing what the project is all about is to read the magazine dedicated to it: http://www.themagpi.com/ One great way to miss the point is to focus on technical issues. It doesn't matter at all that some other boards have better features or offer a better value. Like the Arduino, this is about the community around the product much more than about the product itself. -- Jecel From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:16:44 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 00:16:44 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <201303042340.r24NeYnb030455@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYnb030455@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 4 March 2013 23:40, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Liam Proven wrote on Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:04:40 +0000: >> In my view, the Rpi is the Spectrum /de nos jours./ > > Exactly. And that is a good thing! I agree. > The project's creators just keep > mentioning the BBC because that is what they happened to have as > children and because they are interested in classrooms instead of just > homes. Well, and also because it's an ARM machine, and ARM was an Acorn project - those in Britain who know about this are very proud of it - and also because there is a strong, positive link in the British mindset between the BBC, the BBC Micro and education. The Spectrum was not seen as a serious computer; despite being, to be honest, and I speak as an owner & one who adores the machines, a rubbish games machine, that is nonetheless what it became. The CBM C64, the various Ataris and all the other successful home computers were really pure games machines, with fancy graphics, stereo sound, built-in joystick ports and so on. The only /serious/ 1980s home computers - the ones /not/ mainly used for games, that were also used for education, from primary schoolchildren up to extensive use in universities, was the BBC Micro family. > Since I design computers for children using a Smalltalk microprocessor, How fascinating! Do tell? > I can hardly be expected to have an impartial opinion about this. I > think there is room for the One Laptop Per Child, for the Raspberry Pi, > for the Arduino and also for a machine like you describe. If you give > computers to a million children and only one of those wants to find out > how the processor works and how to modify it, then they should be able > to do it. It has been suggested on this list that this could be achieved > with classic TTL based minicomputers, but I see a modern design built > with FPGAs as a good option. I can only agree. > p.s.: this email was written in Celeste, a Smalltalk application :?D I have a passing interest in Smalltalk. Interesting language, if a bit weird. As it happens, my Ex is a Smalltalk developer and makes a lot of money doing it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:27:24 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 00:27:24 +0000 Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators In-Reply-To: <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> References: <1362353933.24426.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5133E2F6.60200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3 March 2013 23:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 3/3/2013 3:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> >>>> Doofis butt nugget. >>>> >>>> >>> What, are you twelve years old? >> >> 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. > > Act like it. He's not smart enough to. I've had the misfortune to have had him pester me privately by email. He can't spell, can't quote and has both poor interpersonal skills and very poor manners. He believes a load of superstitious nonsense and pesters people in private to try to infect them with his mental dross. It is my considered opinion that he is both of low intelligence and is not a very pleasant human being. I have him killfiled by means of a mark-all-read rule in Gmail, which at least doesn't break up threads like deleting his messages would. Sadly the Gmail UI means I see his messages if they are the last in the thread - and he does like to try to get the last word. Still, it's better than nothing. I recommend doing similar. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:36:11 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 00:36:11 +0000 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5133A76B.8050306@neurotica.com> References: <5133A76B.8050306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 3 March 2013 19:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I graduated from high school in 1987. Nobody had ever heard of a > slide rule by that time. They seem to have faded very quickly. '85 here. Never ever saw one in any educational/scientific context. Knew a few older scientists & engineers who kept one around for sentimental value. My father was one. He never taught me to use them, though. Like the currency pounds, shillings and pence, or the units of ounces, pounds, hundredweights, furlongs, leagues, degrees Fahrenheit and so on, they were all gone before my time. I entered school in about 1971. To this day, I have no clue how many "oz" in a "lb" or "lb" in a stone, or yards in a mile, or any of that stuff. All alien to me: weird, incomprehensible, confusing and a little scary. I am waiting for several late-40s or older types to tell me that there are in fact 235 oz/lb and 12357.3 lb/st and 6.2343648?10?? yards to the mile and that it all makes /perfect/ sense if you just remember these and 460924707 simple, obvious numbers. That obviously, although Fahrenheit is a simple clear logical scale that defines 0? as the temperature of the earlobe of a Siberian pine marten that has been inserted into a 42 ton snowdrift for exactly 3.461376 hours in Perm on the 15 Feb 1765 and 100? is a slight mismeasurement of the average rectal temperature of an unladen African swallow at cruising speed, it makes perfect sense because you see 88? is a nice day and 46? is a howling blizzard and these are sensible human numbers. I mean, who would want a scale from 0 for freezing to 100 for boiling? That's just crazy talk! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 18:45:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 16:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362444319.69718.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 4:16 PM PST Liam Proven wrote: >The CBM C64, the various Ataris and all the other successful home >computers were really pure games machines, with fancy graphics, stereo >sound, built-in joystick ports and so on. You've stated the pi is only a real use-ful computer because of it's ability to get on the net. But most bandwidth these days is used for rubbish. So what what exactly is wrong with the gaming aspects of the earliest, cheap home machines??? I purchased my first C64 AFTER buying my first (real) compatible. >The only /serious/ 1980s home computers - the ones /not/ mainly used >for games, that were also used for education, from primary >schoolchildren up to extensive use in universities, was the BBC Micro >family. Many an honors student would have loved to get their hands on a "game" computer in the 80s. I don't recall too many people that even had one. Most of us who had jobs bought one after hs. Admittedly something more capable. But I doubt 30,000,000 C64s would have sold if it was a boring brick. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 18:50:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 16:50:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362444649.75461.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 4:27 PM PST Liam Proven wrote: >On 3 March 2013 23:55, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 3/3/2013 3:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> Doofis butt nugget. >>> >>> >>> What, are you twelve years old? >> >> 12 + 34. If it's any of you cotton picking business. >> >> Act like it. > >He's not smart enough to. I've had the misfortune to have had him >pester me privately by email. He can't spell, can't quote and has both >poor interpersonal skills and very poor manners. He believes a load of >superstitious nonsense and pesters people in private to try to infect >them with his mental dross. It is my considered opinion that he is >both of low intelligence and is not a very pleasant human being. > >I have him killfiled by means of a mark-all-read rule in Gmail, which >at least doesn't break up threads like deleting his messages would. >Sadly the Gmail UI means I see his messages if they are the last in >the thread - and he does like to try to get the last word. Still, it's >better than nothing. > >I recommend doing similar. I have bad manners? You obviously are an obsessed, mentally oppressed, disturbed individual. You can't quit telling people how badly you want then to ignore me. This is approximately the 3rd time. See a therapist. >-- >Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 19:02:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:02:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore calculators was RE: Calculators Message-ID: <1362445330.88367.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 1:50 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > > That's what a mailing list is for Josh. To ask questions and get >> information. >> > >> > No, you logorrheic moron, it's for asking questions you can't find the >> > answer to with a two second Google search. >> >> >> I shall remembr this next time somebody asks a hardware quesiton on >> PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, HP9800s, etc. The scheamtics are on bitsavers or >> wherever, and that's all you need to find the problem... >> > >Yes, Tony. Asking a question or looking for advice about specific >hardware behavior after doing a fair amount of research on my own is >-clearly- the same thing as asking a question answered by just entering the >search term into Google. Thanks for clearing that up. > >- Josh O man. You see Joshy you touched on a nerve. Stomped on one even. Tony's been accused of the same thing. Perhaps for entirely different reasons. But Tony is as logarithmic as I am. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 4 19:26:18 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 17:26:18 -0800 Subject: Anti-Virus Message-ID: <001e01ce1940$75b568ac$050aa8c0@bensene.com> No, in fact it was Outlook's wonderfully helpful address auto-complete feature, along with me being in a hurry and not verifying the address list before hitting send. -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson [jules.richardson99 at gmail.com] Received: Monday, 04 Mar 2013, 12:54pm To: cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Subject: Re: Anti-Virus On 03/04/2013 10:35 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Rick Bensene wrote: >> My apologies for the misdirected email to the list. >> Rick Bensene > > But, unlike college administrators, > there was no attempt to blame the error on "a virus" Well, it was obviously a network misconfiguration :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 19:57:09 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:57:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Comparing the the group of students applying for computer science at the > University of Cambridge in 2005 with those who had applied in 1995 they > noted that there were half as many and that they didn't know how to > program while those in the older group did. This seemed odd given that > the younger generation had grown up in a world where computers were so > much more common, > but the cheapest computers in the first half of the > 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except > programming in Basic citation, please $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor ANY other operating system. It could be [and often WAS] argued that the cheapest "usable" computer in the first half of the 1980s was $2000. Compaq got their start by advertising $2800 V $3800, other clone companies were pushing $2000 V >$3K for "name brand". > while the cheapest computers in the first half of > the 1990s cost $2000 and didn't have a built-in language, but did have a > huge software library. citation, please My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for $500. While WE would prefer having language in ROM, by the 1990s, you could run any languages from disk. Yes, there were things for $100 in the 1980s that could claim to be a computer. NO, there were PLENTY of machines in the 1990s well below $1000 You are comparing bottom-of-the-barrel scrapings of 1980s with upper-end 1990s. The same identical bottom of the barrel still existed in the 1990s, and the same $2000 had previously existed in the 1980s. The CHANGE that you claim to observe is simply that in the 1980s, you were interested in the $100 machines, but in the 1990s, you ignored them, and refused to acknowledge the existence of anything less than $2000. The computer market changed MUCH LESS than YOU did. OTOH, it IS true that over time, more and more crap has been discarded. There were no computers on the curb on trash day, and now there are. If you accept the validity of USED stuff, then I can cobble together used crap with less looking around now than then. A friend was desperate for an emergency replacement of his laptop. So, I got FIVE Dell 5150s for $300. Now there is a suitable "internet terminal" lying around my mothers house for her, family, and friends to casually use, and some that can be taken to the beach, etc. (Note: Dell 5100, 5150, 5160, etc. have ABSOLUTELY no relationship to the machines of the same model numbers from IBM. Well, "5150" still applies as "a danger to oneself or others", and is a better sounding model number than "Section 136 of the Mental Health Act") > The $2000 PC was a complete system, while the $100 computer was just the > machine itself, but the comparison isn't totally unfair if you could > find the rest for "free" around the house, like a TV set and a tape > recorder. What WE have around the house hasn't changed. You are basing a comparison on what YOU have lying around. I had video monitors before the TRS80 came out, and I still do. I could cobble together a machine from DISCARDS then, and I can do it now. Saying that there is a qualitative difference between then and now is absurd. > So the point of the Raspberry Pi is to give today's children It's ZX80 time. You CAN do wondrous things. Or, you can bemoan the "need" for fancier crap. WHY can't they just say, "it's FUN! and you can cobble together the rest of what you need to make it usable from the crap that is lying around" And THAT is fun, too! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 4 20:09:35 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 18:09:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anti-Virus In-Reply-To: <001e01ce1940$75b568ac$050aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <001e01ce1940$75b568ac$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: <20130304180911.T1661@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Rick Bensene wrote: > No, in fact it was Outlook's wonderfully helpful address auto-complete > feature, along with me being in a hurry and not verifying the address > list before hitting send. Ah! So, at least we can blame it all on Bill Gates! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 4 20:34:48 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 18:34:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > One great way to miss the point is to focus on technical issues. It > doesn't matter at all that some other boards have better features or > offer a better value. Like the Arduino, this is about the community > around the product much more than about the product itself. > That's exactly it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 20:35:17 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 18:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry Message-ID: <1362450917.75494.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 5:57 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >It's ZX80 time. >You CAN do wondrous things. >Or, you can bemoan the "need" for fancier crap. > >WHY can't they just say, "it's FUN! and you can cobble together the rest >of what you need to make it usable from the crap that is lying around" >And THAT is fun, too! Because it's ideological. Because it's the great great grandson of Acorn (I want one), it can't just be fun. It *has* to be wondrous, sliced cheese, the missing link, the Teseract. It *has* to be the life giving manna distributed by angels. All dat. Give him some credit though. He kind of summed it up appropriately - OLPC. STAMP, Arduino, TI Launchpad, Rpi, ... next. It is a learning tool. It is fun. It may even be awfully useful. It just ain't all dat. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 20:49:12 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 21:49:12 -0500 Subject: Anti-Virus In-Reply-To: <20130304180911.T1661@shell.lmi.net> References: <001e01ce1940$75b568ac$050aa8c0@bensene.com> <20130304180911.T1661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Rick Bensene wrote: >> No, in fact it was Outlook's wonderfully helpful address auto-complete... > > Ah! > So, at least we can blame it all on Bill Gates! And here, that's what counts! -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 4 20:54:36 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 21:54:36 -0500 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51355E6C.1090305@verizon.net> On 03/04/2013 08:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >> Comparing the the group of students applying for computer science at the >> University of Cambridge in 2005 with those who had applied in 1995 they >> noted that there were half as many and that they didn't know how to >> program while those in the older group did. This seemed odd given that >> the younger generation had grown up in a world where computers were so >> much more common, I designed my first microprogrammed machine in 1980. What I see is the kids have no concept of the underlying hardware. They don't have to write assembler as even visual basic code is fast enough and ram is not an issue now. They may be skilled but lack depth of understanding. > >> but the cheapest computers in the first half of the >> 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except >> programming in Basic > citation, please > $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor > ANY other operating system. > It could be [and often WAS] argued that the cheapest "usable" computer > in the first half of the 1980s was $2000. Compaq got their start by > advertising $2800 V $3800, other clone companies were pushing > $2000 V >$3K for "name brand". Both wrong. The threshold was not 100 dollars then is was more like 299-399 and then you had a starting point. All the 100$ stuff were limited rom and ram SBCs though they could be useful. The key is raw compute horse power it easily a 2-4mhz cpu against 300-800mhz or more and 8bits vs 32. Clones were 1984 and after. The first half of the 1980s was either Apple, TRS80, or some flavor of CP/M machine as the IBM PC was not widely available until 1982 and expensive, oh and slow. Myself I had DEC LSI-11 as well with disk. FYI in 1981 you could get any number of single board Z80 based cP/M systems and have build a machine around it for under 1K. >> while the cheapest computers in the first half of >> the 1990s cost $2000 and didn't have a built-in language, but did have a >> huge software library. > citation, please > My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for > $500. > While WE would prefer having language in ROM, > by the 1990s, you could run any languages from disk. The floor for useful machines was in the $399 range. At that time 2K got you a fairly well loaded 386 or 486box. Unless your definition was color, and disk must be there. Then 2K wasn't enough. > > Yes, there were things for $100 in the 1980s that could claim to be a > computer. > NO, there were PLENTY of machines in the 1990s well below $1000 By 1990 the base PCxt class was under 1K. There were CP/M systems for less. No shortage of machine going cheap. If you wanted hard disk the price went up as the drives were $300 (and up) alone then and the controller still more. But prices from 1990 to 1994 plunged as in that time frame the XT (8088) class machine and the AT (286) were passed over by the 386 and 486 32bitters. > You are comparing bottom-of-the-barrel scrapings of 1980s > with upper-end 1990s. The same identical bottom of the barrel still > existed in the 1990s, and the same $2000 had previously existed in the > 1980s. > The CHANGE that you claim to observe is simply that in the 1980s, you were > interested in the $100 machines, but in the 1990s, you ignored them, and > refused to acknowledge the existence of anything less than $2000. > The computer market changed MUCH LESS than YOU did. > > OTOH, it IS true that over time, more and more crap has been discarded. > There were no computers on the curb on trash day, and now there are. > If you accept the validity of USED stuff, then I can cobble together used > crap with less looking around now than then. > A friend was desperate for an emergency replacement of his laptop. > So, I got FIVE Dell 5150s for $300. Now there is a suitable "internet > terminal" lying around my mothers house for her, family, and friends to > casually use, and some that can be taken to the beach, etc. ;) cheap still usable PCs are a dime (often free) a dozen now. its been that way since about 1998. The generational turnover insured plenty of used but still good hardware for free or cheap. the only machines I'd ever bought new were a few EeePCs (701 and 901 running linux) when they first came out as they were so cheap and oddly I still have use for them. > (Note: Dell 5100, 5150, 5160, etc. have ABSOLUTELY no relationship to the > machines of the same model numbers from IBM. Well, "5150" still applies > as "a danger to oneself or others", and is a better sounding model number > than "Section 136 of the Mental Health Act") > >> The $2000 PC was a complete system, while the $100 computer was just the >> machine itself, but the comparison isn't totally unfair if you could >> find the rest for "free" around the house, like a TV set and a tape >> recorder. > What WE have around the house hasn't changed. > You are basing a comparison on what YOU have lying around. > > I had video monitors before the TRS80 came out, and I still do. > I could cobble together a machine from DISCARDS then, and I can do it now. Me too, real high res (for that time) black and white monitors, free as in salvaged. > Saying that there is a qualitative difference between then and now is > absurd. If anything cpu horsepower has plain gotten cheaper. PIC cpus for a few dollars, Audrino, Beagleboard and Raspbury-pi are the low end the middle is a ARM9 at 700mhz with touchscreen LCD, USB, Ethernet, and even sound runinning full GUI linux for maybe $499 (and dropping). $1500 gets you a Macbook pro. One thing that is really cheap now and maybe what really stands out is SOFTWARE. Linux is essentially free, all the applications you'd likely need are there. That is one difference from 1980, plainly a larger supply of software free or paid for. But that was growing fast compared to even a year before, 1979. in 1981, $100 got you a SBC, $399 a bare bones TRS80/16k, $1000 a minimal CP/M machine, $2000 a NS* Horizon(z80 4mhz). IBM PC was next year and 3900$ However TI 99/4A was sold out when and cost how much for the full show? Hint base console was $49, with everything TI sold under $450, that was with disk, games and even programming packages and various programs to do real stuff. What year was that? hint (pre 1983). I'm one of those that was first exposed and played with PDP-8 in 1969, first on line for the MITS Altair, and had the first hard disk in my NS* Horizon in 1980 (5MB!). and so on. I was there what was isn't wuite what you (Jecel) thought it was. Either that it was different in some remote country. When I bought the altair as a kit there was no software, save for hand coded assembler. In less than a year there was multiple flavors of basic and a few other languages and the idea of mass storage was move ahead. >> So the point of the Raspberry Pi is to give today's children > It's ZX80 time. > You CAN do wondrous things. > Or, you can bemoan the "need" for fancier crap. Played with a ZX80 and it was a very useful machine for its price and time. They days toys have USB and Ethernet and run linux. > WHY can't they just say, "it's FUN! and you can cobble together the rest > of what you need to make it usable from the crap that is lying around" > And THAT is fun, too! I can! Its fun then and still fun now. Fred, We old folks were there and I can say I had fun and still do. Allison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 4 21:41:45 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 19:41:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362342079.19069.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > 48GX. Replaced the 48S my friend lost at college. Still have it, still runs > great. I even use the iPhone emulator for when it's not handy, though the > UI is dodgy. > > I still have a soft spot for my old Tandy PC-7, which was my first > programmable calculator. Just having something portable that I could > program was amazing, never-mind it was a rather awful machine. I missed the HP42s the first time round because it cost so much. A few years ago I obtained a very nice one on ebay. I love it! Over on the hpmuseum.org forum a new firmware was developed for the HP30b that turned it into a scientific calculator, the WP34s. Now they're working on a new calculator from the ground up for HP42s fans. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 4 22:40:22 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 20:40:22 -0800 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <51355E6C.1090305@verizon.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> <51355E6C.1090305@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51357736.2000107@sydex.com> On 03/04/2013 06:54 PM, allison wrote: > ;) cheap still usable PCs are a dime (often free) a dozen now. its been > that way since about 1998. The generational turnover insured plenty > of used but still good hardware for free or cheap. the only machines > I'd ever bought new were a few EeePCs (701 and 901 running linux) > when they first came out as they were so cheap and oddly I still have > use for them. I splurged around Christmastime and bought my first NEW "barebones" PC in perhaps 6 or 7 years--I paid $159 for motherboard, memory, CPU and case and DVD drive. Before that I'd used a castoff Socket 478 system with 2GB of memory that I got for nothing--all it needed was a simple motherboard trace repair. The display was a circa-2000 NEC 20" LCD display, that needed some minor repairs in the PSU--I got that for nothing as well. In 2000, it would have set you back about $4000. It was a continuation of a pattern--I used to cruise the alleys for discarded radios and later, TVs for parts. All of my keyboards in daily use are surplus Model Ms--the one I"m currently using says "Wang" on it. So all told, I had less than $100 in that rig. The new bare-bones PC is less than impressive to me. It's got a quad-core 3GHz AMD CPU in it running some flavor of Ubuntu. A Virtualbox session is loaded with XP for those things that Ubuntu can't accommodate. It's okay, but I can't claim to be more productive with it than the old box. I recently splurged for a couple of refurb NEC 19" ($70 shipped) displays, not for "work", but for musical transcription--I can have a transcription program up on one display and the other with a manuscript on it near my (MIDI) keyboard. The point is that there's hardware out there for almost nothing if you know what you're doing. The main advantage of an RPi is that it's ready to go and inexpensive. It may not advance your learning much, however. As others have observed. Compare that with my first 8-bit "hobbyist" setup--a MITS 8800 kit with 8KB of shaky TI DRAM and no peripherals for $1000 1975 pre-hyperinflation dollars. I was excited to have it, even though my day job involved working with multi-million dollar supercomputers, to which I had pretty much unfettered access. That was interesting, but the little MITS box was interesting in a very different, much more intimate way. I'd been scheming about how I was going to make an 8008 machine (and before that my own CPU design), had written a cross-assembler and emulator for one and then had my life changed by the 8080. Go spend, what $30 on a Digilent 80 MHz PIC32 implementation of an Arduino board. You've easily got a couple or more orders of magnitude more processing power than that 8080--and more interesting peripherals and memory. Computing has never been so cheap. Don't like the current architectures? Spend somewhat more and buy an FPGA devkit and design your own--you don't even have to know how to solder and the development tools are free. Computing has never been so easy. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 4 22:42:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 20:42:25 -0800 Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: References: <1362342079.19069.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <513577B1.40100@sydex.com> In terms of "most useful", I'm still using my HP16C after many years. Perhaps not as exciting as a kitted-out HP48, but very useful nonetheless. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Mar 4 23:43:59 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 05:43:59 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D744F0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/4/13 6:34 PM, "geneb" wrote: >> One great way to miss the point is to focus on technical issues. It >> doesn't matter at all that some other boards have better features or >> offer a better value. Like the Arduino, this is about the community >> around the product much more than about the product itself. >> >That's exactly it. > >g. > >-- >Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > +1 or more - Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Mar 5 00:01:35 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 06:01:35 +0000 Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D7453C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/4/13 1:23 PM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: >48GX. Replaced the 48S my friend lost at college. Still have it, still >runs >great. I even use the iPhone emulator for when it's not handy, though the >UI is dodgy. > >I still have a soft spot for my old Tandy PC-7, which was my first >programmable calculator. Just having something portable that I could >program was amazing, never-mind it was a rather awful machine. > > When I was doing my Masters in CS, I bought a 48SX because it was the last model with the "right" colors on the keys. It was invaluable when I took a course in Quantum Computation and Information - I programmed it to do outer products. I really want a 16C, just because, but I won't pay stupid ePay prices because my 48SX actually does all those things (I love being able to set the word length since I routinely work with 8-12-16-18-24-32-36 bit computers). Recently, I bought another 48SX for my middle-school-age daughter. She loves freaking out her fellow students - and the teachers - with her RPN skills. That's MY little girl! - Ian From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 15:58:36 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 16:58:36 -0500 Subject: Note about classic computing Message-ID: Whether one is a hardware and/or software person is preserving old computers and ways of computing something that should be pursued? Is it a worthwhile exercise, having an intrinsic value or not, that should consume our valuable time? As one who enjoys working with old technology(Coleco ADAM) my answer is a resounding yes. What I get out of it ties me to the past which I cherish and makes today's computing experience much more satisfactory. And as one writer put it: ?I borrowed a friend?s Blackberry after my iPhone died: Basic capabilities are now five million times more difficult.? Maybe Backberry, aka RIM, should make using technology easier. How innovative! Should this not be technology's goal? Preserving old computers is a goal of mine and as Lyndel Prott puts it: A cultural heritage represents their(a people's) history, their community, and their own identity. Preservation is sought, not for the sake of the objects, but for the sake of the people for whom they have a meaningful life.? Is this not what classiccmp.org is all about? I think so. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 16:01:52 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:01:52 -0500 Subject: A note about classic computing Message-ID: I forgot to say from Murray-- From roe at liveblockauctions.com Mon Mar 4 20:29:03 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:29:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0E25B800-0D9E-45B3-969D-A010C22E424B@liveblockauctions.com> Jeez, buddy, try to keep the YELLING to a minimum. NO, MOTHER, PLENTY. USED, ABSOLUTELY. Etc. etc. > > citation, please > $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor > ANY other operating system. > It could be [and often WAS] argued that the cheapest "usable" computer > in the first half of the 1980s was $2000. Compaq got their start by > advertising $2800 V $3800, other clone companies were pushing > $2000 V >$3K for "name brand". > >> while the cheapest computers in the first half of >> the 1990s cost $2000 and didn't have a built-in language, but did have a >> huge software library. > > citation, please > My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for > $500. > While WE would prefer having language in ROM, > by the 1990s, you could run any languages from disk. > > > Yes, there were things for $100 in the 1980s that could claim to be a > computer. > NO, there were PLENTY of machines in the 1990s well below $1000 > > You are comparing bottom-of-the-barrel scrapings of 1980s > with upper-end 1990s. The same identical bottom of the barrel still > existed in the 1990s, and the same $2000 had previously existed in the > 1980s. > The CHANGE that you claim to observe is simply that in the 1980s, you were > interested in the $100 machines, but in the 1990s, you ignored them, and > refused to acknowledge the existence of anything less than $2000. > The computer market changed MUCH LESS than YOU did. > > OTOH, it IS true that over time, more and more crap has been discarded. > There were no computers on the curb on trash day, and now there are. > If you accept the validity of USED stuff, then I can cobble together used > crap with less looking around now than then. > A friend was desperate for an emergency replacement of his laptop. > So, I got FIVE Dell 5150s for $300. Now there is a suitable "internet > terminal" lying around my mothers house for her, family, and friends to > casually use, and some that can be taken to the beach, etc. > > (Note: Dell 5100, 5150, 5160, etc. have ABSOLUTELY no relationship to the > machines of the same model numbers from IBM. Well, "5150" still applies > as "a danger to oneself or others", and is a better sounding model number > than "Section 136 of the Mental Health Act") > >> The $2000 PC was a complete system, while the $100 computer was just the >> machine itself, but the comparison isn't totally unfair if you could >> find the rest for "free" around the house, like a TV set and a tape >> recorder. > > What WE have around the house hasn't changed. > You are basing a comparison on what YOU have lying around. > > I had video monitors before the TRS80 came out, and I still do. > I could cobble together a machine from DISCARDS then, and I can do it now. > > Saying that there is a qualitative difference between then and now is > absurd. > >> So the point of the Raspberry Pi is to give today's children > > It's ZX80 time. > You CAN do wondrous things. > Or, you can bemoan the "need" for fancier crap. > > WHY can't they just say, "it's FUN! and you can cobble together the rest > of what you need to make it usable from the crap that is lying around" > And THAT is fun, too! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 5 02:26:53 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 00:26:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <0E25B800-0D9E-45B3-969D-A010C22E424B@liveblockauctions.com> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> <0E25B800-0D9E-45B3-969D-A010C22E424B@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <20130305000236.T8638@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Roe Peterson wrote: > Jeez, buddy, try to keep the YELLING to a minimum. NO, MOTHER, PLENTY. > USED, ABSOLUTELY. Etc. etc. If I were your buddy, then you would have learned the DIFFERENCE between yelling and emphasis by now. EVERY example that you listed was emphasis. <- THAT is emphasis. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE! <- THAT is yelling. Single case machines, which were the norm before you were taught your prissy jingoistic misguided parody of etiquette, could have been designed to be all lower case, OR ALL UPPER CASE. Do you know why they chose UPPER CASE? Will you think that we are yelling at you if we explain it? Or, do you deign to tell us that emphasis is the same as yelling? DO NOT TELL US NOT TO YELL! THAT is the only way to ensure that you will be yelled at. OB_Irrelevant_Computer_Trivia: What prissy reporting of activities half a century ago, at the school that I later taught at for 30 years, were responsible for IBM using the term "planar", instead of "motherboard"? Hint: it included some emphasis, but mostly yelling. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ats at offog.org Tue Mar 5 05:13:07 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:13:07 +0000 Subject: Looking for Research Machines 380Z/480Z disk images Message-ID: <20130305111307.GE3420@cartman.at.offog.org> Hi all, Iain Hancock has asked me to pass the following message on to the list: > Hi > > Myself and a few others are collating disks, disk images and programs > for the Research Machines 380z. It's a CP/M machine that was widely > used in UK schools in the early 80's just before the BBC micro was > launched. It provided the first use many British schoolkids had of > micro's and computer programming, and along with it's software played > a very important part in the 1980's uk computer revolution. > > Anyway, there were a surprising number of specific educational and > games programs written for it (and hundreds of games written on it by > schoolkids, inc me ) that are in danger of disappearing with the > dreaded disk-rot. Hence we are trying to locate any Research Machines > disks we can, before it's too late > > Presently we have imaged & extracted about 50 disks worth; they will > go on the yahoo 380z group and an archive site we're setting up, > www.rml380z.org > > Please does anyone here have any 380z (or 480z) disks you might have > picked up along the way? > > We've been imaging them to IMD's and using the normal tools to > extract. Have a script to extract individual files and provide dir > listings so we'll get them up on the site in no time. If anyone can > share images they've done please let me know, or we can make images > here and return disks to you... > > cheers! > > Iain, UK > > PS if anyone can find a copy of an rml basic program "ace invaders", > extra points will be awarded :-) I've dug out a bunch of RM floppies from my collection, and there were a few in Don Maslin's archive that I've also passed on to Iain. We've imaged floppies in these formats (cpmtools diskdefs file) so far: http://offog.org/stuff/rm/rm-diskdefs ... but there are also some RM 8" formats defined in the manuals, which we've not found any examples of yet. It appears that RM used 0x28 as the first byte in their CP/M serial numbers. Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From doug at doughq.com Tue Mar 5 01:38:53 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:38:53 +1100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 200 memory Message-ID: Hi, I have recently received and repaired a TRS-80 Model 200 machine. Woot! My query is if anybody has any experience in adding extra memory - I note that it has some sockets under it for memory expansion, but the recommended devices are 24k (A ceramic carrier with 3 x 8K chips and some decoding - Has anybody had experience using 62256 or similar parts? -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From n8uhn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 07:44:02 2013 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 05:44:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: UNISYS line (band) printer free to good home or collector Message-ID: <1362491042.23331.YahooMailClassic@web122205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have a dishwasher sized unisys 9246-7 line printer to give away. comes with 5 ribbons,manuals and centronics option. works great and has a clean type band. the only thing i don't have is the punched paper tape loop for the line spacing/form spacing reader. the printer is located in Alpena MI 49707. with all the talk about printers and the person posting possible pick up of old gear along his travels, i thought i's post this printer again - i need the room :) Bill From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 07:49:05 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 07:49:05 -0600 Subject: Looking for Research Machines 380Z/480Z disk images In-Reply-To: <20130305111307.GE3420@cartman.at.offog.org> References: <20130305111307.GE3420@cartman.at.offog.org> Message-ID: <5135F7D1.1020605@gmail.com> On 03/05/2013 05:13 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Hi all, > > Iain Hancock has asked me to pass the following message on to the list: I've got 30-40 disks (all 5.25", no 8") for the 380Z and 480Z, but not here in the US with me (I did image most of them, but later found that the images were all corrupt; I'm hoping that the problem crept in when they were FTPed from the DOS imaging machine to the Linux PC, and that they're intact on the imaging box still - but that machine's in storage 4500 miles away. I do have the physical disks too, of course, but also 4500 miles away...) My 380Z Chain network server is at NMoC - I don't know if it'd still boot after so many years, but if someone wanted to try salvaging the data from it then it may be possible to arrange (I simply ran out of time before I moved overseas). It's a ST412-type disk with - IIRC - a Xebec bridge board, which probably means that the interface to the outside world (i.e. the controlling 380Z with the network board) is SASI. I've been on the 380Z mailing list for years, incidentally - but somewhere around a year ago Yahoo suddenly decided that they'd no longer let me post, with no apparent means to fix (the bounce messages aren't particularly enlightening as to what the problem is, and there didn't seem to be a way to communicate with a human being to get it resolved). In other words, I read all the messages with interest, but can't contribute anything. cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 08:11:28 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:11:28 +0000 Subject: A note about classic computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 March 2013 22:01, Murray McCullough wrote: > I forgot to say from Murray-- We know who it's from; your name and email address are in the header. But every message you post is a new thread. You need to Reply to the message that you wish to comment to. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Mar 5 11:50:04 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:50:04 -0300 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201303051750.r25HoJNH033870@mx1.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote on Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:57:09 -0800 (PST): > > but the cheapest computers in the first half of the > > 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except > > programming in Basic > > citation, please > $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor > ANY other operating system. Isn't this what I had said? > citation, please > My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for > $500. > While WE would prefer having language in ROM, > by the 1990s, you could run any languages from disk. Was it a Commodore Amiga? Things like that were indeed available, but were on their way out. So you are right - I was oversimplifying the situation. > You are comparing bottom-of-the-barrel scrapings of 1980s > with upper-end 1990s. The same identical bottom of the barrel still > existed in the 1990s, and the same $2000 had previously existed in the > 1980s. > The CHANGE that you claim to observe is simply that in the 1980s, you were > interested in the $100 machines, but in the 1990s, you ignored them, and > refused to acknowledge the existence of anything less than $2000. > The computer market changed MUCH LESS than YOU did. That is not entirely true. I designed very low cost computers at the time and so did pay attention to what was happening in Brazil, the USA and the UK (with some difficulty). I did not have any data for the rest of the world (except bits and pieces from Japan). > OTOH, it IS true that over time, more and more crap has been discarded. > There were no computers on the curb on trash day, and now there are. > If you accept the validity of USED stuff, then I can cobble together used > crap with less looking around now than then. No, I don't count used stuff. I have no problem with it myself and several of my work machines were given to me by people who were going to throw them away. But I have a lot of experience with poor people (an important part of my intended market) and they prefer to not have a computer at all than to get something that isn't the very latest. So while a new $12 computer (an 8 bit Nintendo videogame inside a computer keyboard) instead of a $20 Pentium 4 PC from 2004 is an amazingly stupid technical choice, it is the most popular one. Another issue is the lack of uniformity in used machines. I have been trying to help in a project to reuse computers siezed by the local government from illegal gambling rings. Inside the machines are regular PCs, but with lots of different processors (Pentium II to more modern stuff), lan cards, disks and so on. Installing a simple Linux on them to run something like Scratch for the children is a lot of work, and getting it done on one machine doesn't help much with the next. In the end, it takes up more than $35 worth of our time. > WHY can't they just say, "it's FUN! and you can cobble together the rest > of what you need to make it usable from the crap that is lying around" > And THAT is fun, too! But that is exactly what they do say. By the way, I should explain to the several people commenting in this thread that I am Raspberry Pi's *competitor*. So while I think I do understand them, I obviously don't fully agree with them. And I started designing computers and processors in the late 1970s while in high school, so I did participate in some of this history and am not someone who just read about it years later. -- Jecel From wlewisiii at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 12:05:36 2013 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 12:05:36 -0600 Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 12:00 PM, wrote: > From: Ian King > Recently, I bought another 48SX for my middle-school-age daughter. She > loves freaking out her fellow students - and the teachers - with her RPN > skills. That's MY little girl! - Ian Heh. And tying this back to another recent thread, my 11yo son has been watching with fascination as I relearn how to use my slide rule (a rather abused Pickett N600-ES). I'm hoping to have him using it too before long. That would surprise a few teachers I think ;) William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. Alex White From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 5 12:23:04 2013 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 19:23:04 +0100 Subject: RS-80 Model 200 memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51363808.2080404@xs4all.nl> > Hi, > > I have recently received and repaired a TRS-80 Model 200 machine. Woot! > > My query is if anybody has any experience in adding extra memory - I note > that it has some sockets under it for memory expansion, but the recommended > devices are 24k (A ceramic carrier with 3 x 8K chips and some decoding - > Has anybody had experience using 62256 or similar parts? > The M200 reference manual has a diagram of the RAM module. It is just three 8kx8 RAMS and a 74LS138. So with a conversion socket, a 32kx8 RAM will probably work too. http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/m200/doc/TRS-80_Model-200_reference-manual.pdf This type of caramic devices was core business for Kyocera, which made the M100 line of computers. Fred Jan From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 5 12:45:23 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:45:23 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 200 memory References: Message-ID: <190B6252D8DF4C978121E935BBEEE9C5@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:38:53 +1100 From: Doug Jackson Hi, I have recently received and repaired a TRS-80 Model 200 machine. Woot! My query is if anybody has any experience in adding extra memory - I note that it has some sockets under it for memory expansion, but the recommended devices are 24k (A ceramic carrier with 3 x 8K chips and some decoding - Has anybody had experience using 62256 or similar parts? ----- Reply: Hi Doug, The Club100 list would probably be a better place to ask; I think Steve will be able to help you out. How'd you make out with that ROM upgrade I sent you? mike From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Mar 5 13:11:31 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:11:31 -0300 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <201303042340.r24NeYnb030455@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201303051911.r25JBh3o042358@mx1.ezwind.net> Liam Proven wrote on Tue, 5 Mar 2013 00:16:44 +0000: > Well, and also because it's an ARM machine, and ARM was an Acorn > project - those in Britain who know about this are very proud of it - And so they should be, and they should be proud of the Inmos Transputer too though that is no longer with us (except through its echo, the Xmos). > and also because there is a strong, positive link in the British > mindset between the BBC, the BBC Micro and education. The Raspberry Pi people actually tried to make the same deal with the BBC, but it was no longer possible because current laws don't allow that kind of partnership anymore. But the project did get mentioned in a BBC blog and that is how the world found out about it a bit too early. The first prototype used two Atmel AVR8 processors instead of an ARM. One generated video in software while the other ran the Python interpreter (but for some reason they decided to call it "Pi" instead of "Py"). The second prototype used a Broadcom chip which made it cheaper and the Python interpreter much faster, but it was only the third prototype that added the ARM and made it into a general purpose machine. The current board design was changed twice after that, but the main chip remained the same. > > Since I design computers for children using a Smalltalk microprocessor, > > How fascinating! Do tell? This is way off topic for this list unless you consider the Smalltalk virtual machine to be a classic computer and what I am doing equivalent to someone putting a PDP-11 in a FPGA. In some ways FPGAs are so abstract that you might as well be doing just simulations, like in the famous "From NAND to Tetris" course. By adding a few steps before you get to the FPGA, however, it can be much more educational. Etienne Delacroix (from Belgium, but he spent years in South America working with children and university students) likes to start his "atelier labs" by building simple gates from transistors and resistors, then more interesting circuits with TTLs before repeating the projects with a Z80 and software. He didn't like that the Z80 is a black box, and so wanted to build his own processor from TTLs. He found a description from a one instruction machine (substract and branch if negative) on the Internet and I designed a board for him with 12 TTLs and did the macros in "as" so he could put his simple Z80 programs on it. I don't feel the result is very educational - the hardware is too simplistic and the complexity gets hidden elsewhere (the macro expansions generate huge binaries). An option is to have more layers, where the transition from one layer to the next isn't too radical. From the top down, we have: 1) very high level programming for games and 3D shared virtual worlds: Scratch, Etoys and OpenCobalt/OpenCroquet/OpenQwaq http://scratch.mit.edu/ http://www.squeakland.org/ http://www.opencobalt.org/ 2) Smalltalk text level Squeak Smalltalk, Pharo, Self and other Smalltalks www.squeak.org http://www.pharo-project.org/home http://selflanguage.org/ 3) Smalltalk bytecode level stack bytecodes, jump bytecodes, send bytecodes, special bytecodes https://github.com/4ji/Smalltalk-Bluebook-chapter-26-30 4) microcode level 16 bit instruction set described in: http://www.merlintec.com/download/jecelwplcr.pdf 5) cache level most of the registers visible in level 4 don't really exist and are instead mapped to the four caches 6) hardware level logic gates Some outdated information about the project can be found at: http://www.siliconsqueak.org/ > > p.s.: this email was written in Celeste, a Smalltalk application > > :?D > > I have a passing interest in Smalltalk. Interesting language, if a bit > weird. As it happens, my Ex is a Smalltalk developer and makes a lot > of money doing it. That is great to hear (that someone is making use of the language). This morning I was thinking that I was too subtle - to get my reference you would have to know that some of the email applications on the Xerox Alto were "Laurel", "Hardy" and "Babar" and that Babar and Celeste were characters (talking elephants) from a 1930s series of children's stories. -- Jecel From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 14:09:22 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:09:22 -0600 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: I think that was a Diablo 630. I had a few of the parts here somewhere. They here table top units with an optional table. ! wouldn't mind picking up a DEC LP01 (80 col) or LP02. Data Products made them for a lot of companies. I'm not sure, but might be 2210 and 2230. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I can't give the darned things away. I have both a Qume and a AT&T-badged >> daisywheel at the moment with absolutely no one willing to spring to ship >> the the things. > > I used to use a daisywheel printer at work in 1984, but even I would > pause at the shipping cost of one. They aren't light. > > About the only one I'd even consider taking on (and that's *consider*, > mind you) is one that worked with WPS-8 and the LPQ8 interface. I > don't remember the exact DEC model number, but they bought someone's > daisywheel printer and mounted it into a rubber-rimmed hole in a small > rolly office supply cabinet as their high-quality (non-dot-matrix) > printer option for WPS. It's heavy enough that it would have to go > palletized via Craters and Freighters or some similar service. > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 14:26:41 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:26:41 -0500 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I used to use a daisywheel printer at work in 1984, but even I would >> pause at the shipping cost of one. They aren't light. >> >> About the only one I'd even consider taking on (and that's *consider*, >> mind you) is one that worked with WPS-8 and the LPQ8 interface. > > I think that was a Diablo 630. I had a few of the parts here > somewhere. They here table top units with an optional table. That sounds right. The printer I mentioned earlier was a "real" (un-rebadged) Diablo 630 that we used to hang off of an Apple II for most of our printing. The ones for WPS systems were, IIRC, tabletop printers with a largish (smalll lunchbox-sized) external PSU that tucked nicely into the custom tables/cabinets. With room for paper, ribbons and extra daisywheels. I think I had one in college that was left behind in a move long ago. Kept the WPS rig (PDP-8/a in a 48" rack with one RX02 pair installed and room for more drives). That one has a programmer's panel on it now. -ethan From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 14:53:18 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:53:18 +0000 Subject: Slide Rules Message-ID: <575986623-1362516798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1038742681-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> At the antique science and retro-tech show they have the international slide rule competition each year. Not sure if they're mostly collectors or daily users but seems an impressive feat these days. Given i think the competitors are mostly the same appropriate age as well. Be fun to see someone young come in. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 5 16:12:59 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 14:12:59 -0800 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> On 03/05/2013 12:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That sounds right. The printer I mentioned earlier was a "real" > (un-rebadged) Diablo 630 that we used to hang off of an Apple II > for most of our printing. > > The ones for WPS systems were, IIRC, tabletop printers with a > largish (smalll lunchbox-sized) external PSU that tucked nicely > into the custom tables/cabinets. With room for paper, ribbons > and extra daisywheels. There were the 630s, which were Hitype IIs, and then the earlier ones (model escapes me at the moment) with the external power supply with some very noisy fans. All were, IIRC, available in RS232C, "centronics" parallel, as well as 12-bit OEM interface. KSR models as well as ROs. The Artec Wapros, for example, used a KSR Hitype with what was about a 40-character LCD tacked onto the front. Wang used the Hitypes quite a bit, but had their own typewheels. I believe that CPT used them also. Then there were the wide-carriage Hitypes for bank use with three printheads. A wonder to watch operating. A collectible printer today might be the Diablo dot-matrix printer. About the size of a regular RO Hitype, but with an incredibly loud shrieking 9-wire printhead. I've only seen (and used) one. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 5 16:23:33 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:23:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/05/2013 12:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Then there were the wide-carriage Hitypes for bank use with three printheads. > A wonder to watch operating. > I had a Mannesmann-Tally(sp?) printer that had three printheads on it. Each did a third of the page, but were also stepped a line up vertically. > A collectible printer today might be the Diablo dot-matrix printer. About the > size of a regular RO Hitype, but with an incredibly loud shrieking 9-wire > printhead. I've only seen (and used) one. The most interesting printer I've seen was an Epson MX-80 (I _think_). What made it interesting was how it was driven. The print head had a pin in the bottom of it that followed a spiral groove cut in a spinning cylinder that went the width of the printer. Very neat to watch. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 5 16:04:11 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Mar 4, 13 04:23:56 pm Message-ID: > > 48GX. Replaced the 48S my friend lost at college. Still have it, still runs > great. I even use the iPhone emulator for when it's not handy, though the > UI is dodgy. I don't think I could get on with a 'virtual calcualtor'. I like the physcial keyboard with moving keys, I can often use that without looking at it (handy when you are using a machine tool or measuing instrument at the time). > > I still have a soft spot for my old Tandy PC-7, which was my first > programmable calculator. Just having something portable that I could > program was amazing, never-mind it was a rather awful machine. > Is that the BASIC programable thing that looks like a calcualtor? In the foltign cawe with the alphabetical keys (in alphabetical order) on the flap of the case? I have one, but it's partly dead. The alpha kesy don't work. It's not conenction trouble, it might be a problem with the membrane keyboard, but I could't get it to work by jumpering the contacts that the membrane tail conencts to, so it might be an IC fault. Odd design. Pity they missed off the expansion connector. I don't like 'serious' programamble calculators where you can't back up your program. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 5 16:30:05 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:30:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Mar 5, 13 00:36:11 am Message-ID: > > On 3 March 2013 19:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > I graduated from high school in 1987. Nobody had ever heard of a > > slide rule by that time. They seem to have faded very quickly. > > '85 here. Never ever saw one in any educational/scientific context. > Knew a few older scientists & engineers who kept one around for > sentimental value. 1984 here. Never used a slide rule in anger at school, although I did know how to use one. My father showed me the basics and I figured out some other tricks. > Like the currency pounds, shillings and pence, or the units of ounces, > pounds, hundredweights, furlongs, leagues, degrees Fahrenheit and so > on, they were all gone before my time. I entered school in about 1971. I do find I ahve to be able to work in imperial units. American computer equipment is full of imperial-sized UNC screws, IC pins are on a 0.1" pitch (2.5mm is not close enough), and so on. > To this day, I have no clue how many "oz" in a "lb" or "lb" in a 16 and 14 respectively. > stone, or yards in a mile, or any of that stuff. All alien to me: 1760, a number whcih I can easily remeebr from anotehr context [1] [1] And yes it is related to classic computers. What is it? > weird, incomprehensible, confusing and a little scary. Actually, for practicla purposes 10 is a very inconvenient base for a measuremtn sytem becuase it has so few factors. And the conversion of in to cm (2.54cm in an inch) is plain painful. 2.55 or 2.56 would make my life a lot easier. > human numbers. I mean, who would want a scale from 0 for freezing to > 100 for boiling? That's just crazy talk! Not me!. Assuming you mean pure water at normal atmospheric pressure I'll ahve 273.15 for freezign and 373.15 for boiling. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 5 16:36:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:36:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Most favorite calc of all time was Re: Calculators In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Mar 4, 13 07:41:45 pm Message-ID: > I missed the HP42s the first time round because it cost so much. A few > years ago I obtained a very nice one on ebay. I love it! I am (as ever) in a minority of one amongst HP enthusiasts in that I don't much like the 42S. It strikes me as a 41 with all the good bits taken out. Good bits like plug-in modules, HPIL, synthetic programming, a way to abck up your data, etc. I asume you know that if you open up the 42S you can desolder the existing 8K RAM chip, solder a 32K (62256-type) chip in place of it, oep nthe soldered jumper next to that IC and solder the other jumper near it. Then you have a machien with 32K RAM. The 17B which uses the same hardware will accept a 32K RAM in that way but will only use 8K of it. the 42S will use the lot. I have not upgraded my 42S though. With no way to abck up the program I type in, I don't see the point in having 32K -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 5 16:50:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 14:50:43 -0800 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> On 03/05/2013 02:23 PM, geneb wrote: ing 9-wire printhead. I've only seen (and used) one. > > The most interesting printer I've seen was an Epson MX-80 (I _think_). > What made it interesting was how it was driven. The print head had a > pin in the bottom of it that followed a spiral groove cut in a spinning > cylinder that went the width of the printer. Very neat to watch. :) A lot of those types of things were used on narrow cash-register tape type printers. One side to the other and back again. There was a printer that was advertised that wrote using a stylus and even had software to add a bit of randomization to the character formation to emulate human handwriting. I don't recall the model. Still, an old drum line printer would be pretty cool to have... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 5 16:57:38 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:57:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: from "geneb" at Mar 5, 13 02:23:33 pm Message-ID: > The most interesting printer I've seen was an Epson MX-80 (I _think_). I thought that was the TX80. The same mechanism was used in the Commodore 2022 and 2023 printers IIRC ~ > What made it interesting was how it was driven. The print head had a pin > in the bottom of it that followed a spiral groove cut in a spinning > cylinder that went the width of the printer. Very neat to watch. :) It's more complicated than that. There are 2 threads of differnet pitches in that sylinder -- and of opposite handedness. The 'pin' actually has a follower on theen. as the cylinder rotates -- always i nthe same direction, the head moves on the finer pitch from left to right and then o nteh coarser pitch from right to left to give a faster carriage return (it only prints in one direction). I have a couple of spare mechanisms for that printer somewhere. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 5 17:42:47 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 16:42:47 -0700 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: It seems the main thing that impedes collecting printers is the same thing that impedes people from collecting terminals: size and weight. Printers tend to be even larger and heavier than terminals. Plus they have associated consumables that may not be obtainable anymore. For instance, Tektronix printers for storage tube terminals use a funky silver-halide dry print process and the paper is now unobtainium and has a short shelf life, even in ideal storage conditions. Printing terminals tend to sit on ebay for a long time, unless they are the portable thermal printing variety. When thermal fax machines finally become obsolete, it will become very difficult to obtain paper for those terminals as well. Right now you can use the fax machine thermal paper rolls for those printing terminals, but there will come a time when they're not making that paper even for fax machines. Even printing terminals like the LA36, for which many DEC collectors have a soft spot, don't sell very well on ebay. It could be because the sellers ask too much money, but I suspect mostly it's due to the fact that freight shipping is going to be required. Teletypes have a soft spot in enough people's hearts that they are willing to pay the expense of having them shipped. Flexowriters, which I consider to be a kind of teletype on steroids, not so much, apparently. Maybe there are some printer collectors out there, but I haven't met any. You could easily create a 'printers wiki' that would be as expansive as the terminals wiki, based just on printers produced for the PC market alone. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 5 17:49:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 15:49:15 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> On 03/05/2013 02:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > 1984 here. Never used a slide rule in anger at school, although I did > know how to use one. My father showed me the basics and I figured out > some other tricks. I'm sure that a few geezers remember the 6 ft. long giant slide rules hanging just above the blackboard used to teach the use of the thing. I recall a "spiral" slide rule in a round cylindrical package also. Done to extend the length of the scale but not the physical length of the rule. And then there were the circular slide rules. Never used one. --Chuck P.S. I'm sure that we're close to the "chalk, blackboard? What are you talking about?" era... From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 5 18:05:38 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 16:05:38 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> On 3/5/2013 3:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > > I'm sure that a few geezers remember the 6 ft. long giant slide rules > hanging just above the blackboard used to teach the use of the thing. > have one available. Post, I think > I recall a "spiral" slide rule in a round cylindrical package also. > Done to extend the length of the scale but not the physical length of > the rule. > > And then there were the circular slide rules. Never used one I have always used a circular. The first time I used a 4 or 5" in school, I decided I needed a better rule, and found an 8" one for sale. It was enamel on aluminum and very durable. The main reason was just additional precision. I looked for some info online as it has been too long to remember what the scale equivalent was on mine, but wikipedia says a 10" had 31cm of equivalent length. The main thing people didn't like that I recalled was the dual cursor you had for using the circular ones like that. They have no moving scales other than the two cursors, and you would set the two cursors to get the same action as you got by sliding the main slide on a normal straight rule. It could be fun if you didn't do it right and nudged the scale when using it. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 5 18:29:45 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:29:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > I looked for some info online as it has been too long to remember what > the scale equivalent was on mine, but wikipedia says a 10" had 31cm of > equivalent length. You do NOT need nor want Wikipedia for that! Not good to become dependent :-) Circumference is PI times diameter. about 80cm 31 INCHES would be close. But, common problem with slide rules is not getting the decimal point or units correct. :-) 31 inches would be closer to correct than 31.4159, since the diameter of the scale would be less than the outer diameter of the rule in most cases. I had a circular rule that consisted of two disks on a common spindle. It would have been nice it were better made. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 18:34:17 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:34:17 +0000 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 March 2013 22:30, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not me!. Assuming you mean pure water at normal atmospheric pressure I'll > ahve 273.15 for freezign and 373.15 for boiling. [Grin] Well all right, yes, Kelvin is sensible in a way. Zero is really zero. OTOH, I very rarely have any use for temperatures much below zero or much above 100, so the 0-to-100 decimal scale suits me very well. Having a more sensible one that measures temperatures I never need to measure is of limited utility to me. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Mar 5 19:22:37 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:22:37 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 200 memory In-Reply-To: <190B6252D8DF4C978121E935BBEEE9C5@vl420mt> References: <190B6252D8DF4C978121E935BBEEE9C5@vl420mt> Message-ID: <51369A5D.1000808@verizon.net> On 03/05/2013 01:45 PM, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:38:53 +1100 > From: Doug Jackson > > Hi, > > I have recently received and repaired a TRS-80 Model 200 machine. Woot! > > My query is if anybody has any experience in adding extra memory - I note > that it has some sockets under it for memory expansion, but the > recommended > devices are 24k (A ceramic carrier with 3 x 8K chips and some decoding - > Has anybody had experience using 62256 or similar parts? > > ----- Reply: > > Hi Doug, > > The Club100 list would probably be a better place to ask; I think > Steve will > be able to help you out. > > How'd you make out with that ROM upgrade I sent you? > > mike > > I did it in my M100, used a 62256 and external decode on a piggyback board. There was enough room if sockets were not used. It used the open sockets for the IOand mechanical support. Its a fairly simple thing to do. I believe someone else did it and documented theirs on the Club100 site. I later modded mine for 64K ram and phantom rom. The default is the M100 rom, the alternate loads CP/M into ram and boots it. disk is a old 16meg CF tucked in there. This is not so trivial as the drivers for the keyboard and display are a PITA. Initial work was done using the serial port as a console and running debug code for the keyboard and display. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 5 21:04:30 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 19:04:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130305190209.K22594@shell.lmi.net> > > Not me!. Assuming you mean pure water at normal atmospheric pressure I'll > > ahve 273.15 for freezign and 373.15 for boiling. On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > [Grin] Well all right, yes, Kelvin is sensible in a way. Zero is > really zero. OTOH, I very rarely have any use for temperatures much > below zero or much above 100, so the 0-to-100 decimal scale suits me > very well. Having a more sensible one that measures temperatures I > never need to measure is of limited utility to me. Seems like I NEVER seem to need to care about temperatures below 0 Kelvin, nor even Rankin! And, this year, right here, it didn't get below 0 Fahrenheit, Celsius, nor even Centigrade. Definitely Somebody Else's Problem. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 5 22:35:59 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:35:59 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> On 3/5/2013 4:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > You do NOT need nor want Wikipedia for that! > Not good to become dependent:-) > Circumference is PI times diameter. I should have checked the math. it isn't pi circumference. It is a spiral, not a circular scale. I didn't want to try to guess, or calculate it because I didn't recall how many times it wrapped. 3 * 8 inches isn't the right number either. Jim From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 23:14:32 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 23:14:32 -0600 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The ones for WPS systems were, IIRC, tabletop printers with a > largish (smalll lunchbox-sized) external PSU that tucked nicely > into the custom tables/cabinets. With room for paper, ribbons > and extra daisywheels. I have this very combo in my storage unit, lonely and looking for a home. It received it with my WP-78, so I was told it was a companion for that system. The cabinet has a cut-out that fits the Diablo daisywheel printer and a recognizably DEC PSU inside, as you say. Unfortunately, it sat in a garage for 20+ years and the printer is badly rusted and who-knows-what-else. The cabinet is probably salvageable but not of much use, given the custom hole in the top. Could always bolt another piece of wood on it, I suppose.... Anyone want it? (in Chicago area.) j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 23:41:40 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:41:40 -0500 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> The ones for WPS systems were, IIRC, tabletop printers with a >> largish (smalll lunchbox-sized) external PSU... > > I have this very combo in my storage unit, lonely and looking for a > home. It received it with my WP-78, so I was told it was a companion > for that system. The cabinet has a cut-out that fits the Diablo > daisywheel printer and a recognizably DEC PSU inside, as you say. That sounds exactly like the one. > Unfortunately, it sat in a garage for 20+ years and the printer is > badly rusted and who-knows-what-else. :-( > The cabinet is probably salvageable but not of much use, > given the custom hole in the top. > Could always bolt another piece of wood on it, I suppose.... Or install a good Diablo 630 in it. > Anyone want it? (in Chicago area.) I'm not in the area, but I have a VT78 and no printer cabinet. How rusty is it and how badly do you want to get it out? -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 5 23:41:55 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 21:41:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130305190209.K22594@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130305190209.K22594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Not me!. Assuming you mean pure water at normal atmospheric pressure I'll >>> ahve 273.15 for freezign and 373.15 for boiling. > On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: >> [Grin] Well all right, yes, Kelvin is sensible in a way. Zero is >> really zero. OTOH, I very rarely have any use for temperatures much >> below zero or much above 100, so the 0-to-100 decimal scale suits me >> very well. Having a more sensible one that measures temperatures I >> never need to measure is of limited utility to me. > > Seems like I NEVER seem to need to care about temperatures below > 0 Kelvin, nor even Rankin! > > And, this year, right here, it didn't get below 0 Fahrenheit, Celsius, nor > even Centigrade. > > Definitely Somebody Else's Problem. Have you ever read Ray Bradbury's other book, "Fahrenheit -459.6"? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Mar 6 00:51:10 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 07:51:10 +0100 Subject: UNISYS line (band) printer FTGH Message-ID: <20130306065110.86590@gmx.net> Bill Allen Jr wrote: > I have a dishwasher sized unisys 9246-7 line printer to give away (...) Sounds great, w/manuals, Centronics being pretty much universal and such. > the printer is located in Alpena MI 49707. Now that's the bad news, This Is America (and across a large body of water from my POV). I once succeeded in having some moderately large piece of equipment (two Aries Research tower machines, which are Sun clones, posted and given away by Sellam) hauled overseas, but that was only because I knew Hans Franke of VCF Europe fame, who had a whole container-load of stuff assembled for shipment over here back then. I don't suppose there is something similar going on at the moment, seeing the overall economic situation? Then I'm probably out of luck here. > with all the talk about printers and the person posting possible pick up > of old gear along his travels, i thought i's post this printer again - i > need the room :) Let's hope it finds a good home anyway. I've still got an option on a Centronics Linewriter LW800 band printer or a Siemens 9045 shuttle printer which might become available locally and I should reserve my space in case I need to rescue _that_. So long, Arno From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 6 01:11:19 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 02:11:19 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. Message-ID: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> It pains me to criticize "the media" because I'm in it. But ... recently I was grossly misquoted by the financial site Bankrate.com, re: any value in vintage computing. http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investment.aspx I don't even recall anyone from that site ever contacting me! I think the write just copied information that I told another financial site, Minyanville.com, two years ago: http://www.minyanville.com/special-features/articles/old-computer-apple-computer-values-old/2/17/2011/id/32477 Bankrate's story says that a desktop PC from 1998 could be a valuable collectible, with the implication that I'm the source of such nonsense. It also says that sky-high early Apple prices are "the excitement" that "led to" formation of groups like MARCH. (As many (most?) of you know, MARCH formed back in 2005, solely to allow collectors in our region to meet, tinker on vintage computers, and have fun.) We retrocomputing folks will never have the numbers of the Beanie Baby people, but, help a brother out: go to the Bankrate story, scroll down to find my comment, and vote it "up" by clicking the caret symbol underneath and to the left of the comment. More bad news: the story was picked up by Fox Business, where presumably many more people will see it than on Bankrate, but where there's no comment system. Soooo, a bunch of people will see the Fox version and get the idea that Pentium Windows 98 computers are ** L@@K R at RE !! and worth BIG BUCKS over on eBay. Oh, joy. http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2013/02/27/five-collectibles-to-stash-for-big-cash-later/ Please know that it's not my fault. ;) - Evan From pinball at telus.net Tue Mar 5 19:02:49 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:02:49 -0800 Subject: RS-80 Model 200 memory In-Reply-To: <51363808.2080404@xs4all.nl> References: <51363808.2080404@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <513695B9.1030905@telus.net> Fred Jan Kraan wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have recently received and repaired a TRS-80 Model 200 machine. Woot! >> >> My query is if anybody has any experience in adding extra memory - I note >> that it has some sockets under it for memory expansion, but the recommended >> devices are 24k (A ceramic carrier with 3 x 8K chips and some decoding - >> Has anybody had experience using 62256 or similar parts? >> >> > The M200 reference manual has a diagram of the RAM module. It is just > three 8kx8 RAMS and a 74LS138. So with a conversion socket, a 32kx8 RAM > will probably work too. > > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/m200/doc/TRS-80_Model-200_reference-manual.pdf > > This type of caramic devices was core business for Kyocera, which made > the M100 line of computers. > > Fred Jan > > I modified one of these about twenty years ago for a friend, as I recall I was able to get it up to at least 48K of RAM - I think he may still be using it from time to time, I must ask... John :-#)# flippers.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 6 02:10:18 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:10:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Evan Koblentz wrote: > It pains me to criticize "the media" because I'm in it. But ... recently I > was grossly misquoted by the financial site Bankrate.com, re: any value in > vintage computing. I suspect those articles might prompt people who are prone to hoarding to start collecting any piece of computer crap they might come across. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 6 02:17:27 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 01:17:27 -0700 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > Unfortunately, it sat in a garage for 20+ years and the printer is > badly rusted and who-knows-what-else. The thing with these largely mechanical pieces is that the rust and lack of lubrication are generally conditions that can be reversed enough to put the machine back into working order. The rust generally results in cosmetic damage, but for many parts not enough damage to prevent it from being put back into operation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 02:18:08 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:18:08 +0000 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:10 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> It pains me to criticize "the media" because I'm in it. But ... recently I >> was grossly misquoted by the financial site Bankrate.com, re: any value in >> vintage computing. > > > I suspect those articles might prompt people who are prone to hoarding to > start collecting any piece of computer crap they might come across. That may accidentally save some good stuff, not a bad thing Dave Caroline From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 02:34:56 2013 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 19:34:56 +1100 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2013 6:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. > It pains me to criticize "the media" because I'm in it. But ... recently I was grossly misquoted by the financial site Bankrate.com, re: any value in vintage computing. > http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investmen t.aspx You got it wrong about C64s - they are regularly going for well in excess of $100 (here in Oz - which is unusual as this was one of CBM's biggest markets) - and remember our dollar is worth more than the USD too. Lance From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 03:13:16 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 03:13:16 -0600 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm not in the area, but I have a VT78 and no printer cabinet. How > rusty is it and how badly do you want to get it out? IIRC, the cabinet is in fairly good shape. If you're interested, I can take pics on the next trip to storage. Here is one photo of the outside that I had forgotten I had when writing the earlier post: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/BigDECPickUp#5749941226539477650 The white dust is just drywall from the garage and was brushed off later. It's the inside of the printer where it gets nasty (mouse house!) I am moving storage units so it would be nice to not have to move this piece, tho I expect I will be doing just that sometime soon, if the alternative is to continue paying for the old storage just to hold this thing. As you can see from rest of that gallery, I've got plenty of restoration work ahead, after the last ice melts. A printer stand is relatively low on the list. -- jht From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 6 04:07:57 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 23:07:57 +1300 Subject: My NEC PC-8201a on YouTube Message-ID: Another of my vintage computers on YouTube. This time that lesser known sibling of the TRS-80 Model 100, the NEC PC-8201a. http://youtu.be/d6z6nzzXlUQ It was the second computer I owned! Terry (Tez) From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Mar 6 04:12:32 2013 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:12:32 +0000 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5 March 2013 23:42, Richard wrote: > Printing terminals tend to sit on ebay for a long time, unless they > are the portable thermal printing variety. When thermal fax machines > finally become obsolete, it will become very difficult to obtain paper > for those terminals as well. Right now you can use the fax machine > thermal paper rolls for those printing terminals, but there will come > a time when they're not making that paper even for fax machines. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the UK it seems that the vast majority of supermarket and similar receipt printers are thermal, so I suspect that the paper itself will be manufactured for a good number of years yet, even if finding the right roll size becomes harder. . From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 6 05:25:30 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 06:25:30 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 2:11 AM Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. > Bankrate's story says that a desktop PC from 1998 could be a valuable > collectible, with the implication that I'm the source of such nonsense. It > also says that sky-high early Apple prices are "the excitement" that "led > to" formation of groups like MARCH. > I posted here a little while ago about an original model 5150 IBM. The reason I got one was because it along with a TRS-80 Model 3 were the first computers I ever used (back in highschool math class that also housed a small computing lab in the back of the room). Not that many kids in the early 80's had a 5150 to get all nostalgic about, but millions had 1998 PCs running Windows 98. And while it seems people stuffed 5150's in the attic and forgot about them, those K6/K7/P2/P3 systems from 1998 are all getting recycled as fast as possible to make a lot of people some badly needed money. You have no idea how scrappers get a hardon when they find a Pentium Pro or 486 chip now. So once those kids get old and nostalgic they will be looking for that crappy old emachines/dell/gateway P3 system to mess with (or more likely to play games on), and there won't be many to be found. While they will never be worth what an Apple I is, there will be some value to them (look at what the Apple IIgs gets these days when a few years ago you couldn't give one away). Its just supply and demand at work, and it takes time for demand to surface while supply gets decimated. Hell someday people might even want a heavy boat anchor of a CRT monitor on their desk even with LCD monitors being so abundant and cheap ( and probably all widescreen which sucks for vintage gaming). Do I recommend filling up a warehouse with common 90's machines, nope. But I do have to admit I have a bunch of them mostly to house all the different generations of early 3d video cards I collect. Way before ATI (now AMD and who knows who will buy them out once they go bust) and Nvidia owned the market there were companies like Permedia, Matrox, S3, 3DFX, etc that made cards for gamers and people will eventually pay a few bucks for them. People like to collect stuff when there was a wide selection to chose from before the inevitable consolidation happens. People here love the stuff that came before the PC ruined everything, well the same thing goes for the old desktop before laptops ruined everything, or laptops when internet ready phones and ipads ruined everything etc. We know MARCH was created before the whole "an Apple I is worth how much?" thing happened, but there are people who will look at that and think there is money to be had, and a simple cheap hobby will turn out to be a cash cow for people flipping machines and parts down the road (happens to every hobby with speculation). From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 06:13:51 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:13:51 +0000 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The most interesting printer I've seen was an Epson MX-80 (I _think_). > > I thought that was the TX80. The same mechanism was used in the Commodore A company I worked at modified the TX80 to colour becoming the CX80 We added a ribbon moving mechanism to the head and drove it from an added interface board where the serial/whatever interface went. I do still have my Commodore version of the TX80 Dave Caroline From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Wed Mar 6 08:09:34 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:09:34 +0000 Subject: Imaging a Tape Message-ID: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape in such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of that tape? I have a fully functioning SCSI tape drive (via Linux at the moment) and want to image various sorts of Data General (and other) tapes safely and also duplicate a couple of them. They are in various odd formats. I can use the non-rewinding device (/dev/nrst0 etc) to get individual files off the tapes but that is tedious and writing a tape like that seems like a nightmare. I found tcopy and built it - but it expects two drives and does not deal with the drive-and-file case. Steve DG Info and Restoration Blog - http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 6 08:44:57 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 06:44:57 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: , , , <20130305190209.K22594@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: Actually, they could have tied temperature to a measurementof distance using the gas law and absolute.That would have made better sense.Dwight From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 08:52:30 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 06:52:30 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2013 6:33 AM, "Steve Merrony" wrote: > > What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape in such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of that tape? > > I have a fully functioning SCSI tape drive (via Linux at the moment) and want to image various sorts of Data General (and other) tapes safely and also duplicate a couple of them. They are in various odd formats. I can use the non-rewinding device (/dev/nrst0 etc) to get individual files off the tapes but that is tedious and writing a tape like that seems like a nightmare. > > I found tcopy and built it - but it expects two drives and does not deal with the drive-and-file case. > > Steve I have some code that I run on Linux to write the contents of a SIMH style .TAP tape image file to a SCSI tape drive that I've used with Exabyte EXB-8200 drives. Plus also do the reverse to read the tape back to an image file for verification, or create an image of a tape. The code I use was originally based off of the 2.11BSD distribution maketape code. I'm sure there a many variations of this sort of code out there. I could send you the code I use if you're interested. There is also ST.EXE here for MS-DOS you could look at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 09:49:57 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:49:57 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2013 7:21 AM, "Torfinn Ingolfsen" wrote: > > Are there any reason why you don't use dd or tar? > > HTH > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen In some cases you want to preserve the exact blocking structure of the tape, not just the set of files. I don't know if you can do that using dd or tar. -Glen From jon at jonworld.com Wed Mar 6 10:01:36 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:01:36 -0500 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > In some cases you want to preserve the exact blocking structure of the > tape, not just the set of files. I don't know if you can do that using dd > or tar. dd doesn't change blocking, it's just a byte-by-byte dump, unless you specify otherwise. Tar, on the other hand, looks for files. From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 6 10:27:54 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:27:54 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <51376E8A.6010603@snarc.net> >> You got it wrong about C64s You must mean in the Minyanville story. Keep in mind that was two years ago. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 10:34:05 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:34:05 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> In some cases you want to preserve the exact blocking structure of the >> tape, not just the set of files. I don't know if you can do that using dd >> or tar. > > dd doesn't change blocking, it's just a byte-by-byte dump, unless you specify otherwise. Tar, on the other hand, looks for files. I would say that it "changes" the file blocking if the blocking structure of the files on the tape is completely removed as the files are read from the tape and written to disk. If the end result is a set of plain files on disk how do you know what the blocks sizes were when then files were originally written on the tape? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 6 11:04:45 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:04:45 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> On 03/06/2013 03:34 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: > http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investmen > t.aspx > > You got it wrong about C64s - they are regularly going for well in excess of > $100 (here in Oz - which is unusual as this was one of CBM's biggest > markets) - and remember our dollar is worth more than the USD too. I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 6 11:51:13 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:51:13 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 08:01 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > dd doesn't change blocking, it's just a byte-by-byte dump, unless you > specify otherwise. Tar, on the other hand, looks for files. Neither is really germane to the problem. Tar is wonderful if you're dealing with files. This is an old problem. Early tapes did not have named files--just sections of blocks separated by filemarks. Records wither corresponded to physical block sizes or some other convention, such as "a record is a group of 512-word blocks until a block shorter than 512 words is encountered". Hierarchical tape structures were possible, with each record having a record-level indicator (COBOL-style). You could similarly, have a tape where a single block could take up a sizeable part of a reel. Having spent a couple of years maintaining tape software, I can say that there were a bewildering number of tape conventions and schemes. Software to deal with differences between systems and vendors with regards to tape was an important part of the mainframe culture. A tape imaging scheme that doesn't preserve the differences is rather short-sighted. dd does not preserve blocking. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 6 11:54:12 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:54:12 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 12:11:09 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:11:09 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/06/2013 03:34 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: >> http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investmen >> t.aspx >> >> You got it wrong about C64s - they are regularly going for well in excess of >> $100 (here in Oz - which is unusual as this was one of CBM's biggest >> markets) - and remember our dollar is worth more than the USD too. Here in the States, they were once quite common (I know they weren't as common in the UK and NZ because of the high cost compared to more domestic 8-bitters, Sinclair machines and such). They also don't take up a lot of room, so many of them have survived in closets to be found later. > I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western > Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) Here in Ohio, either. There's "no perceived value" around here for them. SID collectors can get more for just a bare SID chip through eBay and such than the general public can for an entire system on Craigslist, etc. I'm not saying they don't fetch "real money" in Oz, but this would be another example of local supply and demand ("but the streets are *paved* with VT100s!") Here, the supply was very high and the demand is currently very low. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 6 12:16:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> > > You do NOT need nor want Wikipedia for that! > > Not good to become dependent:-) > > Circumference is PI times diameter. On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > I should have checked the math. it isn't pi circumference. It is a > spiral, not a circular scale. I didn't want to try to guess, or > calculate it because I didn't recall how many times it wrapped. > 3 * 8 inches isn't the right number either. Ah! Sorry I thought that we were still talking about circular. Flat spiral? (like a [non-computer] "record" (ancient predecessor of MP3), or like an SA400 stepper cam)) or helix? (like a "wax cylinder" (predecessor of "record") or lead screw (such as a Micropolis stepper)) If flat spiral, we can estimate the length by PI times the arithmetic mean of the diameter (add the innermost, outermost, and appropriate intermediates and divide by number of turns) If helix, we can estimate the length by the hypoteneuse of a right triangle (consisting of the small distance along the cylinder of the start and end, and the [multiple] circumference (diameter of the cylinder times number of turns times PI)) It won't be MUCH different from just the circumference times nuber of turns. For the squares and square roots needed for calculating the hypoteneuse, use the A and D scales (or B and C) of the slide rule. If the C and D scales do not have a mark for PI, add one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 6 12:19:59 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:19:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment. > I'd email them directly about that, especially if your comment just corrected their very poorly researched story. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 6 12:40:51 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:40:51 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> >>> Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment. >> I'd email them directly about that, especially if your comment just corrected their very poorly researched story. I did. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 13:01:57 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:01:57 +0000 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <513792A5.50704@gmail.com> On 06/03/2013 14:52, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mar 6, 2013 6:33 AM, "Steve Merrony" wrote: >> What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape in > such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of that > tape? >> I have a fully functioning SCSI tape drive (via Linux at the moment) and > want to image various sorts of Data General (and other) tapes safely and > also duplicate a couple of them. They are in various odd formats. I can > use the non-rewinding device (/dev/nrst0 etc) to get individual files off > the tapes but that is tedious and writing a tape like that seems like a > nightmare. >> I found tcopy and built it - but it expects two drives and does not deal > with the drive-and-file case. >> Steve > I have some code that I run on Linux to write the contents of a SIMH style > .TAP tape image file to a SCSI tape drive that I've used with Exabyte > EXB-8200 drives. Plus also do the reverse to read the tape back to an image > file for verification, or create an image of a tape. > > The code I use was originally based off of the 2.11BSD distribution > maketape code. > > I'm sure there a many variations of this sort of code out there. I could > send you the code I use if you're interested. > > There is also ST.EXE here for MS-DOS you could look at: > > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ > > -Glen The Hercules IBM370/390/z emulator (www.hercules-390-eu) includes a tapecopy utility that will copy a SCSI tape to "aws" format and back to tape. Not sure how AWS compares with "tap" format but it preserves the content of tapes, including tape marks and has forward and backwards pointers for emulators that read backwards. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 13:26:54 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:26:54 -0600 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> Message-ID: What did your comment say? On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment. >>>> >>> > I'd email them directly about that, especially if your comment just >>> corrected their very poorly researched story. >>> >> > I did. > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 6 13:38:49 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 20:38:49 +0100 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <51379B49.1030408@hachti.de> Am 06.03.2013 18:54, schrieb Evan Koblentz: > Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment. Ah, I'm not blind... -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 13:41:17 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:41:17 -0600 Subject: My NEC PC-8201a on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tez: Like the video. This is also a favorite of mine. I had an 8201A, long after the fact, but I had the additional external VDP adapter, and an external floppy disk drive for mine. I never did figure out how to get the disk system to work on the system I had since it was second hand and came with no software, and that was in the early days on online/internet where I could have asked someone for assistance. I remember calling up NEC for help and they were not much good then. A thrift store here locally had a PC-8500, which looks a bit like a Tandy Model 200. I passed on it and regretted it later, but someone had beat me to the punch when I went back to retrieve it. ;) On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Another of my vintage computers on YouTube. This time that lesser > known sibling of the TRS-80 Model 100, the NEC PC-8201a. > http://youtu.be/d6z6nzzXlUQ > > It was the second computer I owned! > > Terry (Tez) > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 6 13:48:11 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <513792A5.50704@gmail.com> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <513792A5.50704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51379D7B.3040602@jwsss.com> On 3/6/2013 11:01 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > On 06/03/2013 14:52, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> I'm sure there a many variations of this sort of code out there. I could >> send you the code I use if you're interested. >> >> There is also ST.EXE here for MS-DOS you could look at: >> >> http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ >> >> -Glen > > The Hercules IBM370/390/z emulator (www.hercules-390-eu) includes a > tapecopy utility that will copy a SCSI tape to "aws" format and back > to tape. > Not sure how AWS compares with "tap" format but it preserves the > content of tapes, including tape marks and has forward and backwards > pointers for emulators that read backwards. > The program below works on solaris with the mtio interface. It reads each record into an individual file. the name on the record is FFFF-RRRR where FFFF is the file number and RRRR is the record number. A tape or file mark is a 0 length file. You have to tweak it manually to allow for three tape mark EOT format, but other than that it preserves the record format. I have a program which also goes from this format, which is pretty much universal to the tap format which Al K uses for his archiving. There are tape utilities to go from tap format to AWS and back written by Jay Maynard. I am not sure it Jay's utilities are the same as the mentioned SCSI to aws or not. both are viable archival methods. I find this methods allows very simple tools to get into tape data and examine it, but it is bulky from the unix system point of view, eating up a lot of directory and inode real estate. tapread.c *************************** #include #include #include #include #include #include #include /* * copyright jim stephens 2006 please check with me before passing this on tapread at jwsss.com tread reads files from tape device onto fixed storage. Each tape record is written as a file on the disk, in the current directory. creation of separate directories for each tape is left as an exercise for the user to manage. Each file is named for the file number (tape file, determined by counting EOF marks from tape) and record number. Each field is padded with leading zeros, and becomes the file name by separateing them with a "-" character. The counters start at 1 (file number) and record number 1. the first record on the tape is therfore 0001-0001 a 0 length record is a file mark, so each file will be on the tape will record at least one disk file. Tapes are assumed to end when two consecutive file marks are read, with no intervening data record. Most tape drive / formatter combinations require a read record length of 18 bytes, or the data is ignored. This program has to be modified to handle DEC format tapes which end with three file marks, with file separation being by 2 consecutive file marks, and internal file marks (within tape files) being allowable. Current tape library relies on Sun libraries to run. The system calls to set the maximum tape record size, and retrieve the size of each record read. There are equivalent ones in the MT libs for linux. * */ struct mtop mt_command; struct mtget mt_status; #define BUFLEN 32768 int in_fd; int out_fd; int fmcntr; int rccntr; void mtrew() { mt_command.mt_op = MTREW; mt_command.mt_count = 0; ioctl(in_fd, MTIOCTOP, &mt_command); ioctl(in_fd, MTIOCGET, (char *)&mt_status); /*sts = ioctl(in_fd, */ } void mttsize() { mt_command.mt_op = MTGRSZ; ioctl(in_fd, MTIOCTOP, &mt_command); ioctl(in_fd, MTIOCGET, (char *)&mt_status); printf("record size is %x\n", mt_command.mt_count); } void mtstatus() { printf("mt_type %x\n",mt_status.mt_type); printf("mt_dsreg %x\n",mt_status.mt_dsreg); printf("mt_erreg %x\n",mt_status.mt_erreg); printf("mt_resid %x\n",mt_status.mt_resid); printf("mt_fileno %x\n",mt_status.mt_resid); printf("mt_blkno %x\n",mt_status.mt_blkno); printf("mt_flags %x\n",mt_status.mt_flags); printf("mt_bf %x\n",mt_status.mt_bf); } void main(int argc, char *argv[]) { char fname[500] = "/dev/rmt/0b"; char outname[] = " - "; int i,j; char buf[32768]; int lim; int bsize; int fmflg = 0; int doing_file = 1; int fmcnt = 0; if( (in_fd = open(fname,O_RDONLY)) == -1) { printf("error opening file\n"); exit(1); } fmcntr = 1; rccntr = 1; mtrew(); mttsize(); mtstatus(); i=1; for(;;) { while(doing_file) { bsize = read(in_fd, buf, BUFLEN); sprintf(fname,"%4.4i",fmcntr); strncpy(outname,fname,4); sprintf(fname,"%4.4i", rccntr); strncpy(&outname[5],fname,4); outname[9] = '\0'; outname[4] = '-'; if( (out_fd = open(outname, O_RDWR | O_CREAT)) == -1) { printf("error opening output file\n"); } write(out_fd, buf,bsize); close(out_fd); printf("%4.4x " ,bsize); if(bsize == 0) { doing_file = 0; if(fmflg) { printf("eot %i files\n", fmcnt); exit(1); } } else { fmflg = 0; } if(doing_file == 0) break; printf("%2.2i ", i); lim = bsize; if(bsize > 40) lim=40; for(j=0;j // output: file number, and record number + record sizes to stdout // // limitations: 100000 byte record size maximum (can be changed) ///////////////////////////// #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include ///////////////////////////// #define TAPERECSIZE 100000 ///////////////////////////// FILE *scriptptr; FILE *tapfile; int recsize; char taperec[TAPERECSIZE]; char tapepath[2000]; int filenum; int recnum; char recfilename[2000]; ///////////////////////////// void usage(char *pgmname) { printf("usage: %s input tape file\n", pgmname); } ///////////////////////////// // // read tape record // return 0 if record // return 1 if tape mark // // tape format is: .... // assumed to start at state BOT, beginning of a record ///////////////////////////// int gettaperec(int *parmsize, char *record) { int tapemark = 0; int fileeof; int taprecl; sprintf( recfilename, "%s/%4.4i-%4.4i", tapepath, filenum, recnum); printf("read %s\n", recfilename ); if( (scriptptr = fopen( recfilename, "rb")) == NULL) { printf(" error at record %s\n", recfilename ); // if tape output file open, close it if( tapfile != NULL) { fclose(tapfile); } exit(1); } taprecl = fread( taperec , 1, TAPERECSIZE, scriptptr); fclose( scriptptr ); if( taprecl == 0) { tapemark=1; printf("file end reached\n"); } *parmsize = taprecl; recsize = taprecl; return(tapemark); } ///////////////////////////// // write tape mark, which is 0x00000000 ///////////////////////////// void putfilemark(void) { int tapemark = 0; // write tape mark, which is 0x00000000 fwrite(&tapemark, 4, 1, tapfile); return; } void putrec(void) { // put out record size fwrite(&recsize, 4, 1, tapfile); // output record fwrite(&taperec, recsize, 1, tapfile); // output following record size fwrite(&recsize, 4, 1, tapfile); } ///////////////////////////// int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { int exitflag = 1; int lastrecwastapemark = 0; int lastrecmark; int filecount = 1; int reccount = 0; if(argc < 2) { usage( argv[0] ); exit(1); } printf("reading %s tape file\n", argv[1]); strcpy( tapepath, argv[1]); filenum = 1; recnum = 1; if( (tapfile = fopen("tapfile", "wb" )) == NULL) { printf("problem opening out file tapfile\n"); exit(1); } while( exitflag ) { //exitflag = 0; lastrecmark = gettaperec( &recsize, taperec ); if( lastrecwastapemark && lastrecmark ) { putfilemark(); printf("double filemark\n"); exitflag = 0; } if(lastrecmark) { lastrecwastapemark = 1; filecount+= 1; filenum+=1; reccount = 0; recnum=1; putfilemark(); printf("file mark\n"); } else { lastrecwastapemark = 0; recnum+=1; reccount+=1; putrec(); } if( !lastrecmark) printf("record %4.4i:%4.4i size is %i\n", filecount, reccount, recsize ); } } From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 6 13:51:07 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:51:07 -0700 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , Rob writes: > I don't know about elsewhere, but in the UK it seems that the vast > majority of supermarket and similar receipt printers are thermal, so I > suspect that the paper itself will be manufactured for a good number > of years yet, even if finding the right roll size becomes harder. . It won't be of any use unless it is in the fax-machine sized rolls. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 6 14:17:45 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:17:45 -0700 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <51378211.7060200 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > dd does not preserve blocking. So what do you recommend instead of dd? Also, this discussion hasn't yet specifically stated, but I assume we're talking about 9-track tapes here. Do the same issues apply to QIC DC300 tapes? What about DC100 (mini-QIC) tapes? For the latter, it seems that the specific device (HP 264x is all I can think of at the moment) defined the block size and other tape parameters. Not sure about the tapes used in Tektronix 405x and QIC SCSI tape drives that were commonly used in unix workstations in the 80s and 90s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 6 14:19:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:19:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > If flat spiral, we can estimate the length by PI times the > arithmetic mean of the diameter (add the innermost, outermost, > and appropriate intermediates and divide by number of turns) ERROR! (in my logorrheic babbling) That should be PI times the arithmetic mean of the diameter times the number of turns. (PI * number of turns times ((innermost+outermost diameters)/2)) (or PI * number of turns times (innermost RADIUS + outermost RADIUS)) Would attempting to look up the answer in Wikipedia increase or decrease the number of errors? Would it strengthen the strange belief that "doing the math" is "TOO HARD"? Optional Edison method: wrap a string following the scale and then measure the string. (Apple's ad saying that "Edison could have simulated, instead of trying different filaments", was antithetical to the man's philosophy and style) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 6 14:29:28 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:29:28 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <5137A728.7010204@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 06:09 AM, Steve Merrony wrote: > What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape > in such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of > that tape? That *is* an excellent question, particularly for archivists. How many packages out there record information such as parity (on many drives in both 7 and 9 track formats, for example, it's perfectly possible to change the frame parity), ID bursts, gap length, etc.? Most of the stuff that I've seen concerns itself with the data and not the physical characteristics. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 6 14:30:06 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:30:06 +1300 Subject: My NEC PC-8201a on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Geoff, > A thrift store here locally had a PC-8500, which looks a bit like a Tandy > Model 200. I passed on it and regretted it later, but someone had beat me > to the punch when I went back to retrieve it. ;) Pity, The NEC PC-8500 is a rare and beautiful machine. >I had the additional external VDP adapter, and an external > floppy disk drive for mine. Wow, those are uber-rare also. I've never seen one in the wild myself. Terry (Tez) From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 6 14:31:35 2013 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 15:31:35 -0500 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:17:45 MST.) References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130306203135.3DC77A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > So what do you recommend instead of dd? TCOPY has been mentioned. I usually suggest Eric Smith's tapeutils: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ which avoids needing two tape drives. > Also, this discussion hasn't yet specifically stated, but I assume we're > talking about 9-track tapes here. Many types support blockings other than a single fixed size: Exabyte 8mm, DLT and LTO, to pick a few common ones. > Do the same issues apply to QIC DC300 tapes? What about DC100 > (mini-QIC) tapes? Maybe. Some implementations of QIC formats used a non-standard block size, e.g. some of the Prime unix systems. As another odd case, the Prime 50-series wrote the standard QIC fixed blocks, but the controller managed variable sized blocks, writing a block length and flags into a header in each tape block, then did reassembly on read. I believe I've heard AS400 people kvetching about non-standard block sizes on some tape format or another. Short version, DO NOT USE dd TO IMAGE TAPES. Just don't. It's not hard to use something that preserves the block structure, and then you don't have to guess. Also, the archivists won't shoot you. :) De From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 6 14:31:48 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20130306122406.G39494@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Wow, the Bankrate site has deleted my comment. You expected them to tolerate a refutation from somebody who might actually know something about it? If they really want to believe that there is great value in 1998 machines, then I have a FANTASTIC deal to offer them! (iconic zeitgeist of 1998 computing - eMachine! FPUIB) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 14:34:04 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:34:04 -0500 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: > It won't be of any use unless it is in the fax-machine sized rolls. Talk to the paper mills. Chances are they would sell a roll (mind you, a pretty good sized roll) uncut. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 6 14:38:02 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:38:02 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5137A92A.7060909@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 12:17 PM, Richard wrote: > So what do you recommend instead of dd? I don't--I haven't seen anything that preserves all of the aspects of a tape image yet. See the message just before this one. > Also, this discussion hasn't yet specifically stated, but I assume > we're talking about 9-track tapes here. Don't 7- and 18- track tapes count? There were certainly enough of them produced. > Do the same issues apply to QIC DC300 tapes? It varies--a Cipher 525 uses a very different recording format than, say, a Wangtek drive with the same capacity. And there are a lot of tape formats that are sui generis--Datasonix Pereos, for example, where the tape format was never made public. > What about DC100 (mini-QIC) tapes? There are also 20MB DC-1000 mini-QICs (Irwin made most of those drives). Even among QIC, there are 2- 4- 11- and "lotsa" track drives. Generally, on QIC, DLT, DDS and 8mm units that offered SCSI compatibility, there is fairly broad conformance with ANSI standards, given that SCSI provides a basic set of standard tape manipulation commands. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 14:56:27 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:56:27 -0600 Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: References: <20130304064719.73270@gmx.net> <5134510A.5050207@sydex.com> <51366DEB.7040109@sydex.com> <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Richard wrote: > It won't be of any use unless it is in the fax-machine sized rolls. For now, at least, I pretty regularly find boxes of thermal fax paper, unused or with one roll missing, at Goodwill and other thrift stores. Naturally, me being a therminal fan and a stockpiler in general, I buy them when they're a buck or two. I'm up to about 1.5 banker's boxes full now. I figure they should keep indefinitely as long as they stay out of the light. -- jht From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 14:56:49 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:56:49 -0600 Subject: My NEC PC-8201a on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IIRC, the video display adapter used a TI 9918/28 VDP in it. I was able to get that to work, and plugged into the expansion port on the side. You had to supply power to it via a wall wart for it to work, wouldn't work on the internal battery for obvious reasons. Only 40 columns but did do color as well. On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Geoff, > > > A thrift store here locally had a PC-8500, which looks a bit like a Tandy > > Model 200. I passed on it and regretted it later, but someone had beat me > > to the punch when I went back to retrieve it. ;) > > Pity, The NEC PC-8500 is a rare and beautiful machine. > > >I had the additional external VDP adapter, and an external > > floppy disk drive for mine. > > Wow, those are uber-rare also. I've never seen one in the wild myself. > > Terry (Tez) > From n8uhn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 15:23:36 2013 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:23:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: UNISYS line (band) printer FTGH Message-ID: <1362605016.67600.YahooMailClassic@web122206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No Worry's Arno, i list this printer once a year or so for the last two years. i will sit here, taken care of, till someone does get it (no scrappers!) the only reason i grabbed years ago it is because i like watching band printers in action and it has the centronics option and the standard unisys port. these days, when needing to keep text from a radio decoder or procomm, i save it digitally on the same pc that is running the app so no need to run reams of fanfold through a line printer. Bill >Let's hope it finds a good home anyway. I've still got an option on a >Centronics Linewriter LW800 band printer or a Siemens 9045 shuttle >printer which might become available locally and I should reserve my >space in case I need to rescue _that_. >So long, >Arno From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 15:33:17 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:33:17 -0800 Subject: My NEC PC-8201a on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Geoff, > > > A thrift store here locally had a PC-8500, which looks a bit like a Tandy > > Model 200. I passed on it and regretted it later, but someone had beat me > > to the punch when I went back to retrieve it. ;) > > Pity, The NEC PC-8500 is a rare and beautiful machine. > > >I had the additional external VDP adapter, and an external > > floppy disk drive for mine. > > Wow, those are uber-rare also. I've never seen one in the wild myself. > > Terry (Tez) > There were two complete sets (in original boxes) of PC-8500 systems (main machine, VDP, dual floppy drive, modem) at Aladdin's Lamp Antiques in Bellingham, WA (USA) about 4 months ago. I picked up one of the sets for $85 and poste hered about the other. No idea if it's still there as I haven't been back since. One annoying thing to note about the PC-8500 is that thee screen hinge is of an extremely poor design -- it has a hinge lock (a button on the side that pushes in to lock) and if that lock is engaged (hint: it will be) and you try to open the screen you WILL break the hinge - Josh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 6 15:50:42 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:50:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Printer collecting [Was: Laserjet fuser rollers - cleaning] In-Reply-To: <513676C3.4050708@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 5, 13 02:50:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/05/2013 02:23 PM, geneb wrote: > ing 9-wire printhead. I've only seen (and used) one. > > > > The most interesting printer I've seen was an Epson MX-80 (I _think_). > > What made it interesting was how it was driven. The print head had a > > pin in the bottom of it that followed a spiral groove cut in a spinning > > cylinder that went the width of the printer. Very neat to watch. :) > > A lot of those types of things were used on narrow cash-register tape > type printers. One side to the other and back again. IIRC, the printer used in the HP Topcat calculators (HP91,92,95C,97,97S), the HP41 priner (HP82143) and HPIL thermal printer (HP82162) used a coarse leadscrew to move the head, but reversed the motor to move it back again. The mechanism i nthe Sting (HP10, 19C) calculators and the IR thermal printer (HP82440?) used the dual-thread leadscrew I mentioned last night and always turend the motor the same way > > There was a printer that was advertised that wrote using a stylus and > even had software to add a bit of randomization to the character > formation to emulate human handwriting. I don't recall the model. > > Still, an old drum line printer would be pretty cool to have... Indeed it would. I half-seriusly collect printers -- ones with unusual mechansims or printing methosds. Among them are : HP7245. This is a thermal plotter/printer. It has a strange printhead with 22 elements to print dot-matrix characters i nthe normal way and a 13th element to use as a 'pen'in plotting mode. In that mode the paper is scroleld backand forth, the arriage moves back and forth and it plots vectors Some odd Cewntronics thing where there's a continuusly driven belt running across the chassis and a solenoid mechanims on the chrrriage that crips eitehr the top run or bottom run of the belt to move the carriage in onde direction or the other Axiom EX820 II think). a 7 pin spark tpe printer using aluminiumised paper Also the Raido Shack aluminum paper strip printer Sanders 12/7 and 700. Sanders made soem interesting 7 pin printers where the mechanism could move the head and paper precisely enough for _8_ passes fo th ehead to eb worth doing. The 12/7 uses a Sanders mechansim and is controlled by a Z89 CPU, a souple of Z80 DMA chips and a state machine. The 700 uses a Diablo 630 mechanism with a dot matrix printhead on the carriage. It is controled by a Z80 and a pair of Z8s. DEC LA100. The 9 pin printhead is shifted mechanically by a solenoid mechanism to give an 18 pin reslution in 2 passes without moving the paper. Olivetti 'Sparkjet'. This is an odd device. It electrostatically transfers toner from a little glass-encased rod on the carriage to the paper. Print-out qulaity is poor, but it is still an interesting object Vesatec V80. An electrostatic matrix printer. It builts up a charge image on specially coated ppaer (pased between a set of electrodes) and then passes pliquid toner over the paper which is attraced to the charaged parts. That little Epson mechanism, used in the HX20 and elswhere which has 4 pins in a line on a shuttling carriage. It prints a line of dots, advances the paper, prints another line of dots and so on. Is that little Alps 4 pen thing (Radi Shack CGP115, etc) a printer or a plotter? Anyway I have variosu versions of it. Of course I ahev a few more normal printers in the collection too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 6 15:57:12 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:57:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 5, 13 03:49:15 pm Message-ID: > I recall a "spiral" slide rule in a round cylindrical package also. > Done to extend the length of the scale but not the physical length of > the rule. My father had [1] an Otis King, which is a helcial slide rule. I found another one in a charityshop for a very low prince, of course I bought it. I often show it to visitors, very few people outside my immediate circle of friends can work out what it is used for. > > And then there were the circular slide rules. Never used one. I always thought those were a good idea since the 2 ends of the scale (effectively 1 and 10) coincide. You didn't have to think about which way to move the slide to ensure the answer was on-scale. Were there ever slide rules made for bases other than 10 (say scales from 1 to 8 or 1 to 16)? Those little 'move the sliders with a stylus and hook roudn for carry' adding machiens did esist for other bases. The octal and hexadecimal oens showed up on Ebay a few years ago. Unfortuantely they sold for about \pounds 500 each (due to their rarity) which was a lot mroe that I would spaend on a curiousity -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 6 16:30:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:30:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <201303051750.r25HoJNH033870@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> <201303051750.r25HoJNH033870@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20130306133801.M40187@shell.lmi.net> > > > but the cheapest computers in the first half of the > > > 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except > > > programming in Basic > > citation, please > > $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor > > ANY other operating system. On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Isn't this what I had said? NO. Not in the context of comparing it as "cheapest 1980s" to $2000 as "cheapest 1990s" for a "complete" machine WITH operating system. > > citation, please > > My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for > > $500. > > While WE would prefer having language in ROM, > > by the 1990s, you could run any languages from disk. > Was it a Commodore Amiga? NO. It was a generic cheap Windoze machine. > > The CHANGE that you claim to observe is simply that in the 1980s, you were > > interested in the $100 machines, but in the 1990s, you ignored them, and > > refused to acknowledge the existence of anything less than $2000. > > The computer market changed MUCH LESS than YOU did. > That is not entirely true. I designed very low cost computers at the > time and, in the early 1980s, you were looking at very low cost computers at the time ("$100"). In the 1990s, you were apparently not looking at those. In the 1990s, you were looking at $2000 machines with drives, OS, etc. > and so did pay attention to what was happening in Brazil, the USA > and the UK (with some difficulty). I did not have any data for the rest > of the world (except bits and pieces from Japan). I agree completely that many things were different geographically. THAT is not the issue being discussed. > No, I don't count used stuff. I have no problem with it myself and > several of my work machines were given to me by people who were going to > throw them away. But I have a lot of experience with poor people (an > important part of my intended market) and they prefer to not have a > computer at all than to get something that isn't the very latest. So > while a new $12 computer (an 8 bit Nintendo videogame inside a computer > keyboard) instead of a $20 Pentium 4 PC from 2004 is an amazingly stupid > technical choice, it is the most popular one. That is, indeed, sad. > Another issue is the lack of uniformity in used machines. I have been > trying to help in a project to reuse computers siezed by the local > government from illegal gambling rings. Inside the machines are regular > PCs, but with lots of different processors (Pentium II to more modern > stuff), lan cards, disks and so on. Installing a simple Linux on them to > run something like Scratch for the children is a lot of work, and > getting it done on one machine doesn't help much with the next. In the > end, it takes up more than $35 worth of our time. Refurbing can be a fun hobby. It is not particularly practical as a business venture, unless you have some special deals to take advantage of. > > WHY can't they just say, "it's FUN! and you can cobble together the rest > > of what you need to make it usable from the crap that is lying around" > > And THAT is fun, too! > But that is exactly what they do say. We've been discussing it in terms of practicality, educational benefit. We should have been concentrating on the recreational aspects as a hobby. RPI users will have fun putting a machine together; much more so than learning to program as the goal. > By the way, I should explain to the several people commenting in this > thread that I am Raspberry Pi's *competitor*. So while I think I do > understand them, I obviously don't fully agree with them. And I started > designing computers and processors in the late 1970s while in high > school, so I did participate in some of this history and am not someone > who just read about it years later. You obviously have been there. However, your claim of cheapest machine shifting from $100 to $2000 reflects a change in focus on which segments of the market rather than a change within the market. a few random data points: 1978 TRS80 $400 (however, admittedly more commonly purchased at $600 with monitor and cassette) 1981 5150 $1280 (or ~$2000 to $3000 with minimal drives, RAM, monitor) 1990s generic CRAP $500 complete, decent quality fading from the scene 2013 Poladroid on Woot for $50 (Android 2.x 8GB tablet), although most such devices are ~$100 to $150 If we were to compare RPI to machines with case, keyboard, monitor, and peripherals, then we need to include those costs in the RPI side. "Have those lying around" can apply to BOTH sides of any comparison, and needs to be stated as one of the parameters of the comparison. 1979 TRS80 fully functional with drives, etc. $2000 1979 TRS80 with scrounged/third party parts ~$1000 1979 TRS80 bare $400 1981, 5150 complete and functional from IBM was ~$2700 1981 5150 using "have those lying around" (RAM, drives, monitor, etc.) ~$1700 1981 5150 bare $1280 1985 Mac ~$3000 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION. 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting any corners on cost) How did YOU get cheapest 1980s $100/cheapest 1990s $2000? Citation, or data points, please! Howzbout the specific examples? The only way that I can see would be comparing completely different categories of machines while ignoring machines in the other categories, or concentrating on a market segment that I can't pick out. WHICH category went up from $100 to $2000? NOTE: in general, with plenty of exceptions, the price within a category did not change anywhere near as much as the capabilities. Price of RAM for a machine didn't change anywhere near as much as capacity. It seems that 16G now costs what 16K used to. If the price per unit goes down, the industry is better off increasing the number of units than lowering the price. OTOH, hard drives did come down in price ($2000 for 5M V $150 for 2TB), and keyboards came down from $300 to less than lunch. But, with speed and capacity increases, Boyle's law says that MS^H^H system software will expand to fill all available capacity. Yes, there are additional features - a simple piece of text takes longer to produce, but now has dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish - very important for shopping lists, meeting reschedule memos, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 6 16:35:00 2013 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 17:35:00 -0500 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:57:12 GMT.) References: Message-ID: <20130306223500.D76C4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > I recall a "spiral" slide rule in a round cylindrical package also. > > Done to extend the length of the scale but not the physical length of > > the rule. In addition to the Otis Kings, there were Fullers, Thachers, Nestler cylinders, and probably others. > Were there ever slide rules made for bases other than 10 (say scales > from 1 to 8 or 1 to 16)? Those little 'move the sliders with a stylus > and hook roudn for carry' adding machiens did esist for other bases. The > octal and hexadecimal oens showed up on Ebay a few years > ago. Unfortuantely they sold for about \pounds 500 each (due to their > rarity) which was a lot mroe that I would spaend on a curiousity Octal and hex addiators? Neat, hadn't seen those. De From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 6 16:40:49 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 17:40:49 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> >> What did your comment say? It said: "The vintage computer collecting hobby has been active in its current form since the 1990s. Recent overpriced sales of early Apple systems are certainly not "the excitement" that "led to" the creation of MARCH. I formed MARCH in 2005 as a way for collectors to meet, jointly tinker on vintage computers of the 1960s-1980s, and have fun. Our group, and other groups like ours, are solely for hobbyists -- any "investors" who show up wouldn't fit in. Also, I definitely would NEVER claim that a 1998 desktop PC has or will ever have significant collectible value." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 16:57:42 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 17:57:42 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> Message-ID: > "The vintage computer collecting hobby has been active in its current form > since the 1990s. ... Also, I definitely would NEVER claim that a 1998 desktop PC has or will > ever have significant collectible value." Mark the date. Those words will be eaten in as little as 10 or 15 years. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 17:11:40 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:11:40 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> On Mar 6, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/06/2013 03:34 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: >> http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investmen >> t.aspx >> >> You got it wrong about C64s - they are regularly going for well in excess of >> $100 (here in Oz - which is unusual as this was one of CBM's biggest >> markets) - and remember our dollar is worth more than the USD too. > > I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western > Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) On that note, if anyone's looking to part with a parts donor machine, I'll gladly pay shipping plus a nominal fee. :-) - Dave From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 6 17:12:59 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:12:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Assorted books FFS Message-ID: I have some books that I'd like to get rid of for cost of shipping plus maybe a beer. It should be around $5 for anyone in the US. *Instructor's Manual for Problem Solving and Programming in Fortran 77 (3rd ed) by Cunningham *UNIX Primer Plus by Waite Group Staff (1983, Softcover) *Introduction to WordStar by Arthur Naiman (1983, Paperback) *WordStar with Style by Roger White (1983, Paperback) *The Illustrated CP/M WordStar Dictionary with MailMerge and SpellStar *Word Processing on the Kaypro by Peter A. McWilliams (1983, Paperback) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 17:16:00 2013 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:16:00 +1100 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5137ce30.a44c320a.0c00.5816@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 9:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. >> "The vintage computer collecting hobby has been active in its current >> form since the 1990s. ... Also, I definitely would NEVER claim that a >> 1998 desktop PC has or will ever have significant collectible value." > Mark the date. > Those words will be eaten in as little as 10 or 15 years. Probably true - I'm seeing an increase in price on early Pentium machines here. Bizarre. Probably retro-gamers I suspect. Lance From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 6 17:20:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:20:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20130306151422.O41499@shell.lmi.net> > > "The vintage computer collecting hobby has been active in its current form > > since the 1990s. ... Also, I definitely would NEVER claim that a 1998 desktop PC has or will > > ever have significant collectible value." On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, William Donzelli wrote: > Mark the date. > Those words will be eaten in as little as 10 or 15 years. To be fair, a Packard-Bell, eMachine, Gateway, Yugo, etc. may eventually command a high price, but that does not mean that it has VALUE. Tony Cole's gold plated PC ("for shielding") may certainly become a collector's item, particularly with the major media coverage that it had, but his VIPC 5160s will never really be WORTH anything. Eventually, artifact collectors (not actual users) WILL bid up 1990s crap. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Mar 6 17:21:51 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 23:21:51 +0000 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011876C87A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Steve Merrony Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:10 AM > What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape > in such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of > that tape? > I have a fully functioning SCSI tape drive (via Linux at the moment) and > want to image various sorts of Data General (and other) tapes safely and > also duplicate a couple of them. They are in various odd formats. I > can use the non-rewinding device (/dev/nrst0 etc) to get individual > files off the tapes but that is tedious and writing a tape like that > seems like a nightmare. Since the format for all of the machines of interest to me is 9-track 1/2", I use tools I wrote for TOPS-20 which image and restore .TAP and .TPC files, using 9-track SCSI tape drives. Rather than reading *data*, I read raw 8-bit tape frames, treat them as 8-bit bytes, and leave them the hell alone for all other purposes. But that's just me. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 6 18:12:11 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:12:11 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5137DB5B.8060208@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 01:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Were there ever slide rules made for bases other than 10 (say scales from > 1 to 8 or 1 to 16)? Those little 'move the sliders with a stylus and hook > roudn for carry' adding machiens did esist for other bases. The octal and > hexadecimal oens showed up on Ebay a few years ago. Unfortuantely they > sold for about \pounds 500 each (due to their rarity) which was a lot > mroe that I would spaend on a curiousity There are all sorts of useful gizmos that are little more than a stick of wood with printing on it. A slide rule is a good example. Hanging in my shop is a souvenir from a timber-cruising course I once took. It allows you to measure DBH (diameter at breast height) and a sighting scale to determine the height of a tree to the nearest 10 feet and then a table to compute Scribner volume in board feet. Someone who saw the scale in inches might mistake it for a yardstick--it does have an inch scale on one edge. Are there any similar sticks for, say, estimating the number of cards in a punched-card deck? --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 6 19:33:56 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:33:56 +0000 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <20130305000236.T8638@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D75479@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/5/13 12:26 AM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Roe Peterson wrote: >> Jeez, buddy, try to keep the YELLING to a minimum. NO, MOTHER, PLENTY. >> USED, ABSOLUTELY. Etc. etc. > >If I were your buddy, then you would have learned the DIFFERENCE >between yelling and emphasis by now. >EVERY example that you listed was emphasis. <- THAT is emphasis. >LEARN THE DIFFERENCE! <- THAT is yelling. > >Single case machines, which were the norm before you were taught >your prissy jingoistic misguided parody of etiquette, could have >been designed to be all lower case, OR ALL UPPER CASE. Do you know >why they chose UPPER CASE? >Will you think that we are yelling at you if we explain it? > Is THAT why Teletypes seemed so loud? :-) I think in addition to cctalk and cctech, we need a third list - ccrant? -- Ian From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 19:49:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 17:49:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry Message-ID: <1362620990.64056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:33 PM PST Ian King wrote: >I think in addition to cctalk and cctech, we need a third list - ccrant? >-- Ian ...or cccranks... From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 6 20:02:51 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:02:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <1362620990.64056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1362620990.64056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130306175910.W41499@shell.lmi.net> > >I think in addition to cctalk and cctech, we need a third list - ccrant? > ...or cccranks... Ok, Ok. cclogorrhea From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Mar 6 20:04:28 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:04:28 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <5137A92A.7060909@sydex.com> References: <51374e1e.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8AC2DCD513B.000005A1n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cclist at sydex.com > Sent: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:38:02 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: Imaging a Tape > > On 03/06/2013 12:17 PM, Richard wrote: > >> So what do you recommend instead of dd? > > I don't--I haven't seen anything that preserves all of the aspects of a > tape image yet. See the message just before this one. > >> Also, this discussion hasn't yet specifically stated, but I assume >> we're talking about 9-track tapes here. > > Don't 7- and 18- track tapes count? There were certainly enough of them > produced. > >> Do the same issues apply to QIC DC300 tapes? > > It varies--a Cipher 525 uses a very different recording format than, > say, a Wangtek drive with the same capacity. And there are a lot of > tape formats that are sui generis--Datasonix Pereos, for example, where > the tape format was never made public. > >> What about DC100 (mini-QIC) tapes? > > There are also 20MB DC-1000 mini-QICs (Irwin made most of those drives). > > Even among QIC, there are 2- 4- 11- and "lotsa" track drives. > > Generally, on QIC, DLT, DDS and 8mm units that offered SCSI > compatibility, there is fairly broad conformance with ANSI standards, > given that SCSI provides a basic set of standard tape manipulation > commands. > > --Chuck What about COPYTAPE? http://manned.org/copytape/8e792e25 I've used it on FreeBSD to dup DG AViiON DG/UX tapes. This was a bootable tape image; the AViiON couldn't tell the difference between the original and the copy.... -- Jeff ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 20:16:16 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:16:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry Message-ID: <1362622576.13229.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:02 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> >I think in addition to cctalk and cctech, we need a third list - ccrant? >> ...or cccranks... > >Ok, Ok. > >cclogorrhea Sure why not. But it takes logorrheic to know one. Maybe there's an equivalent 12 steps.... From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 6 20:25:35 2013 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:25:35 -0500 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:04:28 PST.) <8AC2DCD513B.000005A1n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <8AC2DCD513B.000005A1n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <51374e1e.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130307022535.85FC4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What about COPYTAPE? > http://manned.org/copytape/8e792e25 Without specific knowledge of it other than having read the man page, I'd guess it's probably as usable as any of the other utilities that have been mentioned. That said, nothing listed so far will deal with some of the variables mentioned by Chuck -- parity etc. Best I can tell, on Linux it's not possible to determine (or set) that sort of thing without resorting to scsi generic access and maybe knowledge of a specific drive, or to device-specific drivers. I can't speak to the FreeBSD, Solaris etc. tape ioctls, windoze, etc. De From wilson at dbit.com Wed Mar 6 21:04:34 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 22:04:34 -0500 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <20130307022535.85FC4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <8AC2DCD513B.000005A1n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <51374e1e.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> <20130307022535.85FC4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20130307030434.GA10385@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 09:25:35PM -0500, Dennis Boone wrote: >That said, nothing listed so far will deal with some of the variables >mentioned by Chuck -- parity etc. Best I can tell, on Linux it's not >possible to determine (or set) that sort of thing without resorting to >scsi generic access and maybe knowledge of a specific drive, or to >device-specific drivers. I think it'd be very difficult to find a modernish (SCSI) 9-track drive that will do reverse parity. So it'd take more than friendly drivers... BTW my earlier msg seems to have gotten stuck somewhere: Does anyone have a VT102 they'd be interested in selling/trading? Day-trip distance from Monson, MA, USA would be ideal. Thanks! John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 6 21:13:49 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:13:49 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <20130307022535.85FC4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <8AC2DCD513B.000005A1n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <51374e1e.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> <20130307022535.85FC4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <513805ED.7070409@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 06:25 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > That said, nothing listed so far will deal with some of the variables > mentioned by Chuck -- parity etc. Best I can tell, on Linux it's not > possible to determine (or set) that sort of thing without resorting to > scsi generic access and maybe knowledge of a specific drive, or to > device-specific drivers. I can't speak to the FreeBSD, Solaris > etc. tape ioctls, windoze, etc. In the old days, a lot of very strange stuff was written using tape. Nowadays with tape drives made in the 80s, I'm not sure that you can get away with a lot of stuff. Will an auto-load drive, for example, handle a tape with multiple BOT markers on it? In the old days, if you wanted to build a tape containing important files and utilities that you could just take along with you to a customer's site, you could write a file or two, move the tape manually down a bit, stick on a BOT, write some more, and so on. What's the maximum block length that drives and OSes can handle? Just kilobytes or megabytes? I can't really comment just from a man page. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 6 21:17:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:17:15 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <20130307030434.GA10385@dbit.dbit.com> References: <8AC2DCD513B.000005A1n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <51374e1e.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> <20130307022535.85FC4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20130307030434.GA10385@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <513806BB.6030805@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 07:04 PM, John Wilson wrote: > I think it'd be very difficult to find a modernish (SCSI) 9-track drive > that will do reverse parity. So it'd take more than friendly drivers... How modernish? A Qualstar with SCSI interface can be configured to use external parity, for example. I think those were 90s era drives. Any Pertec-interface drive brings parity out the interface in both directions. Pertec/Cipher drives are quite common. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 6 21:58:04 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:58:04 -0600 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5138104C.3070705@jbrain.com> On 3/6/2013 5:11 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 6, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/06/2013 03:34 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investmen >>> t.aspx >>> >>> You got it wrong about C64s - they are regularly going for well in excess of >>> $100 (here in Oz - which is unusual as this was one of CBM's biggest >>> markets) - and remember our dollar is worth more than the USD too. >> I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western >> Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) > On that note, if anyone's looking to part with a parts donor machine, > I'll gladly pay shipping plus a nominal fee. :-) > > > - Dave > > What do you need? I'm sure we can help. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 22:14:29 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 23:14:29 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5138104C.3070705@jbrain.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> <5138104C.3070705@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <2DD54EDC-7E7F-4770-AF26-59178DAA54CC@gmail.com> On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 3/6/2013 5:11 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western >>> Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) >> On that note, if anyone's looking to part with a parts donor machine, >> I'll gladly pay shipping plus a nominal fee. :-) > What do you need? I'm sure we can help. Wish I knew! All I have is a black screen and with an IRQ line continuously asserted. If I pull the VIC, it is no longer asserted, but I'm not enough of a fool to assume that correlation equals causation here. Common wisdom says it's probably the PLA, but I haven't been able to find any indication of trouble indicators on the PLA I can probe with the scope. So, some donor machine that's mostly-whole would probably be a good start. If anyone can point me to the sort of C64 repair guide that details what I should see on a scope for good or bad parts, that would be an even better start, since I despise scattershot part-swapping (especially when I have to desolder things to do it). My own intuition hasn't quite gotten me to where I need to be here. - Dave From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 6 22:20:58 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 22:20:58 -0600 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <2DD54EDC-7E7F-4770-AF26-59178DAA54CC@gmail.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> <5138104C.3070705@jbrain.com> <2DD54EDC-7E7F-4770-AF26-59178DAA54CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513815AA.1050905@jbrain.com> On 3/6/2013 10:14 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 3/6/2013 5:11 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western >>>> Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) >>> On that note, if anyone's looking to part with a parts donor machine, >>> I'll gladly pay shipping plus a nominal fee. :-) >> What do you need? I'm sure we can help. > Wish I knew! All I have is a black screen and with an IRQ line > continuously asserted. If I pull the VIC, it is no longer > asserted, but I'm not enough of a fool to assume that correlation > equals causation here. Common wisdom says it's probably the PLA, > but I haven't been able to find any indication of trouble > indicators on the PLA I can probe with the scope. > > So, some donor machine that's mostly-whole would probably be a > good start. If anyone can point me to the sort of C64 repair > guide that details what I should see on a scope for good or bad > parts, that would be an even better start, since I despise > scattershot part-swapping (especially when I have to desolder > things to do it). My own intuition hasn't quite gotten me to > where I need to be here. > > > - Dave > I don't know if I can help you with diagnosis, but if you just want to get the unit running, I can send a working mobo. I believe I have one here that has a pad ripped off the cassette port connector, but otherwise works. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 00:06:38 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 22:06:38 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com>,<51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net>,<5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net>,<20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I use this method to determine the lengthof a clock spring in a barrel. One can even estimatethe part that is unwound at the center as the coils areclose to evenly spaced. Two calculation and I knowthe length.Dwight > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:19:08 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Slide Rules > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If flat spiral, we can estimate the length by PI times the > > arithmetic mean of the diameter (add the innermost, outermost, > > and appropriate intermediates and divide by number of turns) > > ERROR! (in my logorrheic babbling) > > That should be PI times the arithmetic mean of the diameter times the > number of turns. > (PI * number of turns times ((innermost+outermost diameters)/2)) > (or PI * number of turns times (innermost RADIUS + outermost RADIUS)) > > Would attempting to look up the answer in Wikipedia increase or > decrease the number of errors? Would it strengthen the strange > belief that "doing the math" is "TOO HARD"? > > > Optional Edison method: wrap a string following the scale and then > measure the string. (Apple's ad saying that "Edison could have > simulated, instead of trying different filaments", was antithetical > to the man's philosophy and style) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 7 00:54:24 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 22:54:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 6, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/06/2013 03:34 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investmen >>> t.aspx >>> >>> You got it wrong about C64s - they are regularly going for well in excess of >>> $100 (here in Oz - which is unusual as this was one of CBM's biggest >>> markets) - and remember our dollar is worth more than the USD too. >> >> I dunno, man. People can't give them away here in western >> Pennsylvania. (nor could they in southwest Florida) > > On that note, if anyone's looking to part with a parts donor machine, > I'll gladly pay shipping plus a nominal fee. :-) I have several C64s in fair to decent condition which had their SIDs extracted. If you want one or more I can help you. SIDs can be simulated with a microcontroller-based solution called a "SwinSID" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 01:06:46 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 01:06:46 -0600 Subject: DEC and non DEC disk packs Message-ID: Still digging for several requests for parts, and have found some packs I don't need. 5- RK07K-DC Some have labels on them including XXDP, but I have no way of checking them. I think there is one RK06 pack left also. 2- RA60-P Used, no idea what is on them. 1- RA60-P Looks new , sealed in plastic bag with some cutd in the bag. 2- 80MB Looks like RM02/03, CDC9762 packs No other numbers found yet 1- CDC883-51 CE pack 1- CE pack, looks like RP06, or al least that size. No other numbers found yet. All untested, if interested, please contact me off list. shipping from 61853, IL Thanks, Paul From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 02:43:33 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:43:33 +0000 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:57 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Mar 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >> Comparing the the group of students applying for computer science at the >> University of Cambridge in 2005 with those who had applied in 1995 they >> noted that there were half as many and that they didn't know how to >> program while those in the older group did. This seemed odd given that >> the younger generation had grown up in a world where computers were so >> much more common, > > >> but the cheapest computers in the first half of the >> 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except >> programming in Basic > > citation, please 1977 for UK ?39.95. I still have mine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK14 programmed in assembler > $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor > ANY other operating system. A computer is a computer regardless of OS or otherwise. > citation, please > My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for > $500. Cannot have looked hard 1980 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zx80 1981 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zx81 ?69.95 assembled, 1.5 million, I call that mass market Dave Caroline From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 08:06:37 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:06:37 -0600 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: <51355E6C.1090305@verizon.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> <51355E6C.1090305@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DCE69E8-71AF-4E72-8292-26C86D399B30@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2013, at 8:54 PM, allison wrote: > However TI 99/4A was sold out when and cost how much for the full show? > Hint base console was $49, with everything TI sold under $450, that was > with disk, games and even programming packages and various programs > to do real stuff. What year was that? hint (pre 1983). The only time I recall a 99/4A selling for that kind of money was when TI was clearancing them off to get out of the home computer market. My dad bought one from K-Mart for $310 right before they cut the price on them, and that was certainly not the highest price they sold the base console for. The PEB and all the peripherals were mad money, considering you could buy a CP/M machine or perhaps an IBM PC for similar money once you put all the pieces together. From tingox at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 08:54:15 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:54:15 +0100 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steve Merrony wrote: > What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape in > such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of that > tape? Are there any reason why you don't use dd or tar? HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 09:34:49 2013 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 16:34:49 +0100 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steve Merrony > wrote: >> What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape in >> such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of that >> tape? > > Are there any reason why you don't use dd or tar? That would not work because the record information would be lost, and the requirement was to make a replica of the tape (in addition 'dd' will only read until the first EOF mark and then stop.) I have been using a piece of software I wrote years ago which does essentially what the previously mentioned 'tcopy' does, but in addition it can write to files. It's a very simple tool I'm sure many others have also written, what it does boils down to the following: while (not eof) { record_size = read (tape deviice. record) write (file, record_size, 4) // writes a 4-byte record with the record size if (record_size > 0) { write (file, record, record_size) // write record } } The disk file will then consist of 'records' prepended with a 4-byte value with the record size. End-of-file marks on the tape (between files) will be indicated with a record size of zero. At the end of the tape, write 2 ore more zero-size records (ANSI tapes often used 2 or 3 EOF marks to indicate e-o-t or e-o-v). To generate a new tape from the file just write a tool to understand this simple format and write back record-by-record with size as indicated in the file. -Tor From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Mar 6 10:02:35 2013 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:02:35 -0700 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <5137689B.3050300@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Steve - I will try to contact you off list (again) to give you the programs and info you are looking for ... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com www.NovasAreForever.org On 3/6/2013 7:09 AM, Steve Merrony wrote: > What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape > in such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of > that tape? > > I have a fully functioning SCSI tape drive (via Linux at the moment) and > want to image various sorts of Data General (and other) tapes safely and > also duplicate a couple of them. They are in various odd formats. I > can use the non-rewinding device (/dev/nrst0 etc) to get individual > files off the tapes but that is tedious and writing a tape like that > seems like a nightmare. > > I found tcopy and built it - but it expects two drives and does not deal > with the drive-and-file case. > > Steve > > DG Info and Restoration Blog - http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ > > From amh at POBOX.COM Wed Mar 6 11:32:43 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:32:43 -0500 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3/6/13, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steve Merrony > wrote: >> What is the current best practice for creating an image of a SCSI tape in >> such a way that it can later be used to reliably make a replica of that >> tape? > Are there any reason why you don't use dd or tar? AFAIK, dd won't preserve the block structure or marks from tapes, and thus is unsuitable for making faithful copies. From roe at liveblockauctions.com Wed Mar 6 21:25:17 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:25:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> > > dd doesn't change blocking, it's just a byte-by-byte dump, unless you specify otherwise. Tar, on the other hand, looks for files. Actually, dd uses 512-byte blocks by default,and always has. At least since V6, anyway... From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 7 08:18:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 06:18:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOSEC on archive.org Message-ID: TOSEC, The Old School Emulation Center archives are now on archive.org. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the collection. Check it out: http://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Atosec&sort=-publicdate Capsule descriptions are needed for the various collections - if you can help, join the #iatosec channel on any efnet IRC server. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 7 09:25:55 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 07:25:55 -0800 Subject: TOSEC on archive.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:18 AM -0800 3/7/13, geneb wrote: >TOSEC, The Old School Emulation Center archives are now on >archive.org. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the collection. > >Check it out: >http://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Atosec&sort=-publicdate > >Capsule descriptions are needed for the various collections - if you >can help, join the #iatosec channel on any efnet IRC server. Good Grief! Some of those zip files are HUGE. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 7 09:38:08 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:38:08 -0500 Subject: TOSEC on archive.org References: Message-ID: <00BC19944EE640678582349B9248FEE9@hd2600xt6a04f7> 30+GB for Amiga, will snag that eventually. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 10:25 AM Subject: Re: TOSEC on archive.org > At 6:18 AM -0800 3/7/13, geneb wrote: >>TOSEC, The Old School Emulation Center archives are now on archive.org. >>There's a lot of interesting stuff in the collection. >> >>Check it out: >>http://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Atosec&sort=-publicdate >> >>Capsule descriptions are needed for the various collections - if you can >>help, join the #iatosec channel on any efnet IRC server. > > Good Grief! Some of those zip files are HUGE. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 10:29:45 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 16:29:45 +0000 Subject: TOSEC on archive.org Message-ID: <1696659546-1362673781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2112340035-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Its the actual programs offered or just the list of known apps? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 7 10:50:31 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:50:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOSEC on archive.org In-Reply-To: <1696659546-1362673781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2112340035-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1696659546-1362673781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2112340035-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > Its the actual programs offered or just the list of known apps? Each collection has individual programs, disk or rom images and in some cases, iso images. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 7 10:33:20 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:33:20 -0600 Subject: Temperature scales (was: Re: Slide Rules) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 March 2013 22:30, Tony Duell wrote: >Actually, for practicla purposes 10 is a very inconvenient base for a >measuremtn sytem becuase it has so few factors. ... >Not me!. Assuming you mean pure water at normal atmospheric pressure >I'll have 273.15 for freezing and 373.15 for boiling. Wouldn't you *really* rather have, say, *144* degrees between freezing and boiling, or maybe between absolute zero and freezing? I mean, if 10 is an inconvenient base, 10^2 has all the same problems twice over... :-) P.S. At 1:29 -0600 3/6/13, Arno Kletzander wrote: >Now that's the bad news, This Is America (and across a large body of >water from my POV). Hm. I'm thinking we should start taking up a collection to purchase a transatlantic-capable yacht for Will Donzelli ... (more :-) ) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 7 11:00:22 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 11:00:22 -0600 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:22 -0600 3/7/13, Fred wrote: >1985 Mac ~$3000 >1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION. >1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500 (new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a student). I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, and the 68000 looked more powerful to me than the 8086. I mistakenly thought that I'd be writing most of my own software in either case - and I've yet to really learn any assembly language. I totally misjudged the development of MacOS and applications, or the speed at which MS-DOS' hardware requirements would advance ... Anyway, my point is that exceptions to Apple pricing did exist, and were (at least in my case, though not necessarily for the right reasons) decisive. [1] I was going to say, "I still have it", but on thoughtful consideration, I guess I only still have the bottom and front bezel of the case and the CRT. Power supply re-built, logic board upgraded to Mac Plus which required replacement of case back. Not too sure about the frame - is that the same between a Plus and a Fat Mac? I still have the mouse and keyboard and power cable. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 7 11:25:58 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 09:25:58 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5138CDA6.6080200@jwsss.com> Wikipedia might have a photo of a rule similar to mine along with a verifiable explanation of what the length of that spiral scale is. I didn't and my rule was buried. I already said I brain farted an quoted a bad stat. I was not going to do wikipedia w/o verification or because the math is too hard. I did it because I have no idea how many times the scale went round, and didn't want to guess. Is guessing and babble better than wikipedia even if the math is right? On 3/6/2013 12:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Would attempting to look up the answer in Wikipedia increase or > decrease the number of errors? Would it strengthen the strange > belief that "doing the math" is "TOO HARD"? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 7 11:27:08 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 10:27:08 -0700 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <5137A92A.7060909@sydex.com> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <51378211.7060200@sydex.com> <5137A92A.7060909@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <5137A92A.7060909 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > On 03/06/2013 12:17 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Also, this discussion hasn't yet specifically stated, but I assume > > we're talking about 9-track tapes here. > > Don't 7- and 18- track tapes count? There were certainly enough of them > produced. They count, but in the context of the original poster, I assumed 9-track ANSI style tapes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 11:31:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:31:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" (Was: Raspberry In-Reply-To: References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130307090747.O53988@shell.lmi.net> > >> but the cheapest computers in the first half of the > >> 1980s cost $100 and were practically useless for anything except > >> programming in Basic > > citation, please On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Dave Caroline wrote: > 1977 for UK ?39.95. I still have mine. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK14 programmed in assembler > > $100 did NOt buy you anything that could run CP/M, MS-DOS, Apple-DOS nor > > ANY other operating system. > A computer is a computer regardless of OS or otherwise. > ["cheapest computer in the 1990s was $2000"!] > > citation, please > > My MOTHER was able to find a mass-marketed machine with drive and OS for > > $500. > Cannot have looked hard Exactly. No, she didn't look very hard, and wouldn't have known where and how to look. She most certainly, in spite of no knowledge of the field, did NOT have to spend $2000. > 1980 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zx80 > 1981 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zx81 ?69.95 assembled, 1.5 million, > I call that mass market But the Timex would not have been suitable for her as a word processor. (Her computer needs are not the same as ours) and either seems to refute "cheapest computer in the 1990s was $2000" I still maintain that "cheapest 1980s $100/cheapest 1990s $2000" is either comparing two different categories of computers (as time goes on, our interests do change), OR is looking at some very VERY odd category of computers! (perfectly reasonable, IFF category is identified!) Either bare machine (including RPI) or "full system" are valid subsets, but comparisons of them require appropriate adjustments. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 11:37:22 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:37:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> > >1985 Mac ~$3000 > >1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION. > >1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: > True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500 > (new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a > student). Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice. > I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit > Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) I built one of those. > and the 68000 looked more powerful to me than the 8086. Unarguably better, although PC had more software and hardware selection > Anyway, my point is that exceptions to Apple pricing did > exist, and were (at least in my case, though not necessarily for the > right reasons) decisive. would have worked for me. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 7 11:39:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 09:39:51 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <5138D0E7.8080406@sydex.com> On 03/06/2013 07:25 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: >> dd doesn't change blocking, it's just a byte-by-byte dump, unless >> you specify otherwise. Tar, on the other hand, looks for files. > > Actually, dd uses 512-byte blocks by default,and always has. At least > since V6, anyway... Logical blocks, yes. But AFAIK, it has no capability to reproduce the size of physical blocks when doing a tape-to-disk transfer. How could it? Unix has no way to specify the size of variable-sized physical blocks on disk. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 11:43:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:43:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5138CDA6.6080200@jwsss.com> References: <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> <5138CDA6.6080200@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130307093845.F53988@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > Wikipedia might have a photo of a rule similar to mine along with a > verifiable explanation of what the length of that spiral scale is. I > didn't and my rule was buried. I already said I brain farted an quoted > a bad stat. 'sOK It happens > I was not going to do wikipedia w/o verification or because > the math is too hard. I did it because I have no idea how many times > the scale went round, and didn't want to guess. Is guessing and babble > better than wikipedia even if the math is right? maybe :-) certainly more fun So, is it a flat spiral or a helix? Either one at 10" diameter is an impressively long scale, for a LOT of accuracy! From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Mar 7 11:55:38 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 12:55:38 -0500 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> On 03/07/2013 12:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 1985 Mac ~$3000 >>> 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION. >>> 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting > On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: >> True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500 >> (new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a >> student). > Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice. > >> I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit >> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, > "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) > I built one of those. SB180 was 64180 a which is Hitatchi Z80 derivative, not a PC though small and fast and also 1980 or 81. I have one with the SCSI adaptor. The PC was indistinct in my mind and forgetable. Allison From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 7 11:59:02 2013 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 12:59:02 -0500 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 07 Mar 2013 09:43:21 PST.) <20130307093845.F53988@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093845.F53988@shell.lmi.net> <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> <5138CDA6.6080200@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130307175902.A8E3AA580E9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Either one at 10" diameter is an impressively long scale, for a LOT of > accuracy! The accuracy builds up surprisingly slowly as the scale lengthens. De From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 12:01:55 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 13:01:55 -0500 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: >> True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500 (new) > > Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice. I got a Mac SE in the late 1980s via student pricing. My mother paid for it (legal according to the discount sale terms) and I left it at her shop three blocks from the University (and three blocks from my campus house) for her to use during the day and me to write papers on at night - she had the $5000 Apple LaserWriter and the $1500 LaserWriter Plus upgrade, so I was happy to have that at my fingertips. > "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) > I built one of those. Saw those in Byte but most of it was way over my head at the time. >> and the 68000 looked more powerful to me than the 8086. > Unarguably better, although PC had more software and hardware selection I held out. I went from the 6502 (which I used daily from about 1979-1986) to the 68000 (Amiga, 1986-2006) and mostly bypassed PC hardware until I was able to run Linux on it (1992- ) I did use that first PC for DOS games and such as well, but I didn't purchase one until 5 months after Linux came out. Bought it as a 386X/40 motherboard + 4MB of RAM (when RAM was $40 per 1MB stick) and built my first system around it. So for a datapoint on the $100 vs $2000 debate, this was an up-to-date machine for its day, and cost me approx $1000 to build a good DOS box or entry-level Linux box in April, 1992. It was far from the cheapest computer available. -ethan From pet4032 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 13:59:57 2013 From: pet4032 at gmail.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:59:57 -0500 Subject: Personal Computer Museum of Brantford, Ontario in today's National Post! Message-ID: <5138F1BD.7080608@gmail.com> http://business.financialpost.com/2013/03/07/vintage-computer-museum-aims-to-preserve-educate-about-pc-video-game-history/ The National Post is a national Canadian newspaper with a circulation of 144,116. Personal Computer Museum site: http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ If you are ever up in the Southern Ontario area, it is a must visit! Cheers, Bryan From wilson at dbit.com Thu Mar 7 14:06:59 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:06:59 -0500 Subject: VT102 Message-ID: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> Second, shorter try, (last one moderated?): anyone have a VT102 they'd be willing to sell/trade (I have many Q-bus boards)? NE US ideal, but. Tnx / JW From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 7 14:26:07 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 09:26:07 +1300 Subject: Personal Computer Museum of Brantford, Ontario in today's National Post! In-Reply-To: <5138F1BD.7080608@gmail.com> References: <5138F1BD.7080608@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nice website Brayn, with some classic old machines. Tez On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > > http://business.financialpost.com/2013/03/07/vintage-computer-museum-aims-to-preserve-educate-about-pc-video-game-history/ > > The National Post is a national Canadian newspaper with a circulation of > 144,116. > > Personal Computer Museum site: http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ > > If you are ever up in the Southern Ontario area, it is a must visit! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 14:42:16 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> > >> I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit > >> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, > > "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) > > I built one of those. On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Allison wrote: > SB180 was 64180 a which is Hitatchi Z80 derivative, not a PC > though small and fast and also 1980 or 81. I have one with the SCSI > adaptor. Yep. I kinda knew (hence '??') that I wasn't remembering the model number. > The PC was indistinct in my mind and forgetable. It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the same as the 5150, thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them. But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine forgettable) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 14:46:31 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:46:31 -0500 Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 3:06 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Second, shorter try, (last one moderated?): anyone have a VT102 they'd > be willing to sell/trade (I have many Q-bus boards)? NE US ideal, but. Not NE US, but I have terminals - DEC and CiTOH, mostly. I'm sure I have a few VT102s (probably more VT101s). If you don't get an offer close enough for pickup, let me know. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 7 14:24:17 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 20:24:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130306223500.D76C4A580EA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 6, 13 05:35:00 pm Message-ID: > > > > I recall a "spiral" slide rule in a round cylindrical package also. > > > Done to extend the length of the scale but not the physical length of > > > the rule. > > In addition to the Otis Kings, there were Fullers, Thachers, Nestler > cylinders, and probably others. Yes, I ahve a Stanley-Fuller too. But it's rather too large to use convenientlu, I prefer the Otiz King. And yes, there is a time when I find a slide rule to be a conveneint tool. IfI need to fidn 2 prefered-value resisotrs with the radio of valuse close ot some numebr (say for a potential divider or to set the gain of an op-amp, I set the slide rule to that ration and go along the preferd values on some scale seeing if they coincider with a prefered vlaue o nthe other sale. > > > Were there ever slide rules made for bases other than 10 (say scales > > from 1 to 8 or 1 to 16)? Those little 'move the sliders with a stylus > > and hook roudn for carry' adding machiens did esist for other bases. The > > octal and hexadecimal oens showed up on Ebay a few years > > ago. Unfortuantely they sold for about \pounds 500 each (due to their > > rarity) which was a lot mroe that I would spaend on a curiousity > > Octal and hex addiators? Neat, hadn't seen those. I've only ever seen them once, that was on E-bay about 7 years ago. As I said they sold for a very high price due to their rariety (more than you'd pay for a _nice_ HP16C, for example), so I didn;'t get tem. >From waht I rememeber they arre like the decimal version, just with the right number of slots on the slides. IIRC they had 2 sets of 'uutput windows', one above and one below the entry area. The second ouytput was the inverse of the first (so on the octal model 0<->7, 1<->6, etc) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 7 14:30:08 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 20:30:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Mar 6, 13 05:40:49 pm Message-ID: > > >> What did your comment say? > > It said: > > "The vintage computer collecting hobby has been active in its current > form since the 1990s. Recent overpriced sales of early Apple systems are Make that the mid 1980s (at least). I strted collecting [1] seriosuly in 1986 (and had acquired a few thigns befroe that),.I do not beleive I was the first by any means [1] I guess I am a colelctor, even thoguh I use my old machines. > certainly not "the excitement" that "led to" the creation of MARCH. I > formed MARCH in 2005 as a way for collectors to meet, jointly tinker on > vintage computers of the 1960s-1980s, and have fun. Our group, and other > groups like ours, are solely for hobbyists -- any "investors" who show > up wouldn't fit in. Also, I definitely would NEVER claim that a 1998 So you don;t want to point out the error of their ways and show them the 'fun;' side to the hobby ? > desktop PC has or will ever have significant collectible value." > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 7 14:36:29 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 20:36:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Mar 6, 13 05:57:42 pm Message-ID: > > > "The vintage computer collecting hobby has been active in its current form > > since the 1990s. ... Also, I definitely would NEVER claim that a 1998 desktop PC has or will > > ever have significant collectible value." > > Mark the date. > > Those words will be eaten in as little as 10 or 15 years. I am not so sure. Certainly quite unlikely things have become collectable, but I can think of serveral reasons why a 1998 PC is not goign to have the interest of, say, a PDP8 or am HP9830 or even an original IBM PC. Firstly, 1998 PCs are all much the same. There's nothing special or interesting about any particular model (Yes, there were unusual and interesting computers made in 1998, but they are not 'dekstop PCs'. Secondly such machineasre essentially unrepairable. They are going to fail and you simply can't get spares. If you swap out complete modules, then you end up with soemthing that is not really the oriignal machine. oddly, parts for much older machines are easier to find. Some components are still being made [1] and many others are vaialbe as NOS. [1] A trivial example. Recently I needed a 723 regulator IC, the versio in the TO99 metal can. I asusmed it would be unavaialbe and was wondering just how I woudl fit the DIL veriso ninto a very tight space when I did the sensible thing and checked to see if I could get one. Amazingly, not only was it available, it was even RoHS-compliant, implying it was still being made quite recently. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 7 14:57:20 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 12:57:20 -0800 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> On 03/07/2013 12:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the same as the 5150, > thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them. > But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a > terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't > work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine > forgettable) I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274, rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board? --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 15:27:09 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 13:27:09 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5139062D.8060506@gmail.com> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I need me some disk images. From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Mar 7 15:27:43 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 18:27:43 -0300 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307090747.O53988@shell.lmi.net> References: <201303042340.r24NeYUB030454@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130304172015.X1661@shell.lmi.net> <20130307090747.O53988@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201303072128.r27LRwpP035803@mx1.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote on Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:31:25 -0800 (PST): > I still maintain that > "cheapest 1980s $100/cheapest 1990s $2000" > is either comparing two different categories of computers (as time > goes on, our interests do change), OR is looking at some very VERY > odd category of computers! (perfectly reasonable, IFF category is > identified!) > Either bare machine (including RPI) or "full system" are valid > subsets, but comparisons of them require appropriate adjustments. I agree completely - my original comparison was absurdly unfair. You mentioned that our interests change over time, but so does what most people want. In the same way I discounted used computers saying poor people didn't want them (like all generalizations, I am sure it is easy to find examples of people who did buy used machines), I also did not take into account low end computers that were rejected by the general public. For example: in Brazil the low end in 1983 to 1985 were clones of the Sinclair machines. In 1986/1987 these were still available in the market, but most people who bought them did so due to ignorance (a parent buying a machine for his kid and having no idea that a Sinclair Spectrum and an Apple II had any differences, for example) and the real low end were now the (much more expensive) MSX computers. By 1989 the MSX were now the cheapest for sale, but people ignored them because they wanted to run at home the same applications they used at work, and that meant a PC. Thanks, by the way, for the other very detailed reply. I should indeed do a proper survey showing what was available each year and adjusting the prices to take inflation into account. The bulk of my information for the USA market in those years were from issues of Computer Shopper (which I no longer have) and the ads at the back of Byte Magazine (which I can dig out). I probably won't have time to do this in the next couple of months, unfortunately. I like to claim that my first real computer was the university's Burroughs B6700, but of course that wasn't mine at all. Not counting programmable calculators, my first few computers were: home built videogame console with the Signetics 2650 processor (1979), Motorola MEK6800D2 development kit (128 bytes of RAM, 1980), Sinclair ZX81 (USA version, 1982), Texas Instruments TI99/4A (1982), home built Apple II clone (1984), Apple 128K Macintosh (soon expanded to 512K, 1986), Unitron Turbo Mac 512 clone (1988), generic 386 40MHz PC (1993). I still have about half of these. There were also the machines I designed myself, some of which can be seen here: http://www.merlintec.com/swiki/hardware/album.html -- Jecel From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Thu Mar 7 15:33:03 2013 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 16:33:03 -0500 Subject: TOSEC on archive.org In-Reply-To: References: <1696659546-1362673781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2112340035-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Have the contents of these bundles been okayed for distribution? IIRC, the Internet Archive (excluding things like the Wayback Machine) has always focused mainly on things that are either in the public domain or which are licensed for free redistribution. While the TOSEC metadata might be so licensed, I can't imagine that everything described by that metadata would be similarly okay. Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 15:49:16 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 13:49:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130307133353.W57495@shell.lmi.net> > > It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the same as the 5150, > > thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them. > > But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a > > terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't > > work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine > > forgettable) On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think > the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274, > rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board? The one that I was talking about was the MPX-16 It was available from Micromint (Steve Ciarcia Cicuit Cellar) , Cedarhurst, NY for $1200 $595 wave soldered kit $400 bare board manuals $50 http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false Steve Ciarcia wrote quite a bit about it. It would have been out of my price comfort zone, if I hadn't gotten the chance to take over somebody else's unfinished (not even completely soldered yet) project. THAT brought the price into range. When I closed up my office 10+ years ago, Sellam got both of the MPX-16s. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 16:15:24 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:15:24 -0500 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307133353.W57495@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> <20130307133353.W57495@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The one that I was talking about was the MPX-16 That's the one I remember. I _read_ the articles at the time, but so much of it was far, far over what I knew at the time that about the only thing I walked away from the experience with was the thought that "gee, this Intel stuff is *way* more complicated than this 6502 stuff in front of me." > It was available... for $1200 > $595 wave soldered kit > $400 bare board > > It would have been out of my price comfort zone... Waay over mine (it took me 2 years to save up half the cost of a PET in 1979, but I was too young to have a "real" job yet). > ...if I hadn't gotten the chance to take over somebody else's > unfinished (not even completely soldered yet) project. > THAT brought the price into range. Sounds like a great deal for you. I never knew anyone around here who had one. Plenty of folks 10-15 years older than me had CP/M machines, but the first 8088s I saw were genuine IBM 5150s and the Eagle Computer clones we talk about from time to time here. So did you run CP/M-86 on yours or MS-DOS? -ethan From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 16:42:27 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 16:42:27 -0600 Subject: Keyboard with skull and crossbones key (U11) Message-ID: Anyone know what keyboard this is/was and if it was really standard? One of the dudes collecting stuff at Electronics Plus last weekend I think got it for a collector friend who's on this list. There were two of the keyboards, obviously from some government terminal/system but only one had the key. On top it was a skull and crossbones but on the user facing side it I believe said U11 as with most of the keys up there so it seemed legit. Thought it was funny but can't find much mention of it out there. Alternatively if you have it and have a pic somewhere I'd love to see it again :-) - John From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 16:57:51 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:57:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" Message-ID: <1362697071.77683.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 12:57 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 03/07/2013 12:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the same as the 5150, >> thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them. >> But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a >> terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't >> work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine >> forgettable) > >I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274, rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board? > >--Chuck The articles appeared in BYTE, was even on the cover of one issue. An individual gave away one on this list a few years ago (took a minute, Rich Cini). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 16:58:47 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:58:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? Message-ID: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 1:27 PM PST mc68010 wrote: >None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I need me some disk images. Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 17:11:41 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:11:41 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> On 3/7/2013 2:58 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 1:27 PM PST mc68010 wrote: > >> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I need me some disk images. > Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. Oh man. Here we go again. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 17:19:45 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130307140039.L57495@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think > the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274, > rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board? 8251A http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false p158 From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 7 17:33:19 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:33:19 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <5139062D.8060506@gmail.com> References: <5139062D.8060506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513923BF.60502@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2013 1:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: > None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I need > me some disk images Jay mentioned migration of facilities in the last 2 to 3 weeks, may still be moving, or may be a failure. I didn't get a 503 error, but a server busy about 2 hours ago when I first noticed your post, and now I'm getting a good page from classicmp.org. maybe try again. jim From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 7 17:37:49 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:37:49 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> References: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2013 3:11 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/7/2013 2:58 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 1:27 PM PST mc68010 wrote: >> >>> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I >>> need me some disk images. >> Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. > > Oh man. Here we go again AGain it is on Jay's server dunfield.com is fine too. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 17:41:27 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:41:27 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <513923BF.60502@jwsss.com> References: <5139062D.8060506@gmail.com> <513923BF.60502@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <513925A7.8010207@gmail.com> On 3/7/2013 3:33 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 3/7/2013 1:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I need >> me some disk images > > Jay mentioned migration of facilities in the last 2 to 3 weeks, may > still be moving, or may be a failure. I didn't get a 503 error, but a > server busy about 2 hours ago when I first noticed your post, and now > I'm getting a good page from classicmp.org. maybe try again. > > jim > It's up again now. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 17:44:39 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:44:39 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> References: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51392667.9000308@gmail.com> On 3/7/2013 3:37 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 3/7/2013 3:11 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 3/7/2013 2:58 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 1:27 PM PST mc68010 wrote: >>> >>>> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I >>>> need me some disk images. >>> Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. >> >> Oh man. Here we go again > AGain it is on Jay's server dunfield.com is fine too. That just links back to classiccmp.org when you click the Old computers link. It's all good now though. Thanks for checking. Hope Dave is OK. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 18:13:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 16:13:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" Message-ID: <1362701625.56674.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 12:57 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 03/07/2013 12:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> It had NINE slots, with the alternate ones spaced the same as the 5150, >> thus permitting 5150 case if you didn't need bracket on four of them. >> But, the UNUSUAL part about it was that it was designed to work from a >> terminal, instead of PC style keyboard and screen. That apparently didn't >> work out, so he came out with a keyboard ISA card. (to make the machine >> forgettable) > >I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274, rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board? > >--Chuck The articles appeared in BYTE, was even on the cover of one issue. An individual gave away one on this list a few years ago (took a minute, Rich Cini). From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 7 18:15:40 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:15:40 -0800 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <51392667.9000308@gmail.com> References: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> <51392667.9000308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51392DAC.7090907@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2013 3:44 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > That just links back to classiccmp.org when you click the Old > computers link. It's all good now though. Thanks for checking. Hope > Dave is OK. > Dunfield.org's reference to daves old computers is to the classicmp site. Maybe he took out some cruft in his web server. HOwever when you originally complained the classicmp.org site was sideways. agree about dave as well. Interesting to poke around on his site and the site that bought out some tools he apparently had(has) jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 7 18:26:08 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:26:08 -0800 Subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307140039.L57495@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <5138D49A.4030606@verizon.net> <20130307123846.I56885@shell.lmi.net> <5138FF30.4030609@sydex.com> <20130307140039.L57495@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51393020.30008@sydex.com> On 03/07/2013 03:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I have a booklet of schematics for a very similar kit, but I don't think >> the name is "Micromint". Also, wasn't the UART something like an 8274, >> rather than an 8250, shared with DRAM on an ISA board? > > 8251A > > http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false > p158 Okay, I've got the schematics for the Explorer 88/PC (Netronics R&D, New LItchfield, Conn), which uses an 8250 for async, has a separate keyboard and cassette interface. No video as far as I can tell. I also have an ISA card with 6 banks of 4164s and an Intual DUART on it. And I recall the "Blue Seed" kits. Lots of interest in the early PC, apparently. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 7 18:30:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 16:30:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> References: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130307162900.V58922@shell.lmi.net> > >>> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I > >>> need me some disk images. > >> Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. > > > > Oh man. Here we go again On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > AGain it is on Jay's server dunfield.com is fine too. MUCH more important, Is Dave OK? From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Mar 7 19:34:25 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 20:34:25 -0500 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? In-Reply-To: <20130307162900.V58922@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362697127.6321.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51391EAD.1060806@gmail.com> <513924CD.5000902@jwsss.com> <20130307162900.V58922@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51394021.8080300@verizon.net> On 03/07/2013 07:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I >>>>> need me some disk images. >>>> Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. >>> Oh man. Here we go again > On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: >> AGain it is on Jay's server dunfield.com is fine too. > MUCH more important, > Is Dave OK? > Just checked his sites both of them and it was up and running. Maybe the 503 was a DNS screwup? Allison From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 21:49:49 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:49:49 -0600 Subject: Personal Computer Museum of Brantford, Ontario in today's National Post! In-Reply-To: References: <5138F1BD.7080608@gmail.com> Message-ID: kool nice to know theres other people in canada interested in stuff like this. has a 5 yr goal of opening one in winnipeg manitoba got it semi open in my office at home witch anyones welcome to have a tour of. even if its semie burried under lego at times... From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Thu Mar 7 11:53:40 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:53:40 +0000 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <5138D424.6090204@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Wow! - Thanks for all the thoughts on the above. Shame the copytape program isn't in the Debian/Ubuntu repos - I'll see if it'll compile from source later. Will look at the utility from Hercules too. Steve From rwiker at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 11:59:29 2013 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 18:59:29 +0100 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1CDB3645-98EC-403A-AA61-826196623DA1@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2013, at 18:37 , Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 1985 Mac ~$3000 >>> 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION. >>> 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting > > On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: >> True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500 >> (new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a >> student). > > Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice. > >> I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit >> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, > > "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) > I built one of those. I'm pretty sure that the SB180 was Z80-based; the PC compatible was called MPX-16. http://circuitcellar.com/featured/ciarcia-onward-upward/ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 7 12:23:04 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 10:23:04 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130307175902.A8E3AA580E9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20130307093845.F53988@shell.lmi.net> <5136847B.2020404@sydex.com> <51368852.9090302@jwsss.com> <20130305161646.Q20403@shell.lmi.net> <5136C7AF.8030005@jwsss.com> <20130306093550.G37519@shell.lmi.net> <20130306120737.K39494@shell.lmi.net> <5138CDA6.6080200@jwsss.com> <20130307175902.A8E3AA580E9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5138DB08.1080702@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2013 9:59 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Either one at 10" diameter is an impressively long scale, for a LOT of > > accuracy! > > The accuracy builds up surprisingly slowly as the scale lengthens. > > De That was why I had both a 4" and the monster. The jump up in accuracy w both expensive and large to the detriment of being able to have it with me as I schelped from class to class. I didn't want to damage the legend on the large one, and it was already huge in itself. And there was only a lambskin leather cover for it which wouldn't do with everyday carrying. It could have used a hard case, but then would have become like the old "luggable" systems of pre laptop days. You could have carried it, but would not want to. And I don't mean as large as the luggable, just the choice was not real, you would not want one in your sack of stuff in a hard case. Fred, you stretched my head when you said helix vs. spiral. do you get a helix on a flat plane with just lines on it? I thought helix would be cylinder ruled with a line. maybe I'm taking what you meant out of context and you were referring back to the cylindrical devices. I would think the helix would be quite a bit harder to navigate than the spiral. at least on the spiral, you could always see the entire picture, whereas with the helix / cylinder you'd end up with only viewing a stack of legends on a side, part of the helix at any one given time. knowing which vertical one to pick on which cursor could get to be fun. thanks Jim From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 01:34:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 23:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" Message-ID: <1362728095.79090.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 4:26 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >Okay, I've got the schematics for the Explorer 88/PC (Netronics R&D, New >LItchfield, Conn), which uses an 8250 for async, has a separate keyboard >and cassette interface. No video as far as I can tell. Would you consider sharing these with your down trodden brothers in the community who've had to go without? >I also have an ISA card with 6 banks of 4164s and an Intual DUART on it. > >And I recall the "Blue Seed" kits. Please expound. >Lots of interest in the early PC, apparently. Aye. >--Chuck > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 01:45:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 23:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" Message-ID: <1362728721.17910.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 3:19 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >http://books.google.com/books?id=zQWNinpbFx0C&pg=PA120&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false >p158 Just how compatible was this thing? Did the article make any references to vid? I must assume the bios was supplied by phoenix or someone - From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 06:50:33 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:50:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <1CDB3645-98EC-403A-AA61-826196623DA1@gmail.com> References: <20130307093242.M53988@shell.lmi.net> <1CDB3645-98EC-403A-AA61-826196623DA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Raymond Wiker wrote: > On Mar 7, 2013, at 18:37 , Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> 1985 Mac ~$3000 >>>> 1985 Mac using scrounged stuff ~$3000 - NOT AN OPTION. >>>> 1985 Mac bare ~$3000 (Macintosh was not amenable in the 1980s to cutting >> >> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: >>> True in general, but my Fat Mac in about 1985 [1] cost ~$1500 >>> (new) including University of Texas' academic discount (I was a >>> student). >> >> Sweet. I didn't have access to that deal. It would have been nice. >> >>> I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit >>> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, >> >> "Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) >> I built one of those. > > I'm pretty sure that the SB180 was Z80-based; the PC compatible was called MPX-16. As pointed out by others, the SB180 used a Hitachi HD64180 cpu. A superset of Z80 functionality. -- From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Mar 8 11:34:19 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 11:34:19 -0600 Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 18:11 -0600 3/7/13, wrote: > > I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit >> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, > >"Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) >I built one of those. Don't remember the exact name (MPX-16 from later posts), but pretty sure that's the system! Fred, you are positively the Man; that is totally awesome! How did the board work out? One of my few computing regrets is never getting to play around on that machine, although I love the Mac. I did get a Rainbow 100B years later, so I got as much of MS-DOS (3.10b) as I wanted. Decided I liked CP/M 80/86 better, and the Rainbow did that too. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 8 12:04:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 10:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130308095326.P83336@shell.lmi.net> > > > I decided that way because that price beat Ciarcia Circuit > >> Cellar's price for a *kit* for an 8086 SBC, > >"Micromint SB180??"? (PC compatible 9 slot) > >I built one of those. > On Fri, 8 Mar 2013, Mark Tapley wrote: > Don't remember the exact name (MPX-16 from later posts), but pretty > sure that's the system! Yes, Micromint MPX-16 is, indeed the one. Sorry about the misteak with "SB180" name - that misteak certainly created some confusion. > Fred, you are positively the Man; that is > totally awesome! How did the board work out? Naah, I was just fooling around. I got mine late as somebody else's abandoned project. As such, by the time that I completed it, it was pretty obsolete, and I never did anything serious with it. I got a second machine, and had the keyboard card, so I was running it with CGA and keyboard, which was pretty compatible. I ran PC-WRITE on that setup, but never ran anything other than MASM and DeSmet C on the terminal based machine. For my serious XenoSoft work, I had to be somewhat fanatical about compatability. XenoPhobe had been the result of a slip on that! > love the Mac. I did get a Rainbow 100B years later, A 100B years later, a Rainbow would be a MAJOR rarity! :-) > so I got as much > of MS-DOS (3.10b) as I wanted. Decided I liked CP/M 80/86 better, and > the Rainbow did that too. 2.11 and 3.31 had the most customizations. 3.10 was first with the Network redirector that permitted MSCDEX for CD-ROMs, And 3.31 was the first to understand >32M drives. But, MY favorite was always 6.2x - the first, and only?, version whose main development goal was to improve reliability. (fixing "problems with compression" which were actually SMARTDRV misconfiguration issues, and finally making a serious attempt to catch up with bug reports) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 13:29:35 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 13:29:35 -0600 Subject: Burroughs adding machine Message-ID: <513A3C1F.4000702@gmail.com> Any early Burroughs experts here? Yesterday I discovered a Burroughs "Style no. 3" adding machine in a junk/antiques store (the kind of wonderful store where you have to dig through stuff to get to more stuff, and when you get to that there's even more stuff underneath/inside it :-) Anyway, it's got the pedestal, side-desk and printing mechanism (at least I assume that the gubbins at the back is a printer, although I couldn't immediately see how it transfers to the paper - poss. just not visible with the platen in the way). It seems to be basically the same as this one: http://www.fi.edu/learn/sci-tech/adding-machine/adding-machine.php ... except: 1) it doesn't have the row of red/white keys across the top, 2) the desk on this one is much larger/nicer, 3) there's no ornate Burroughs script at the base of the keyboard area; instead it says "Burroughs" and "center of type" above the keyboard, 4) the backing to the keyboard seems to be black (not green) 5) the keytop for the lower-left key on the keyboard is red (and a little larger), not metal. The mechanism seems free and cosmetically it's in pretty good shape, considering that it's probably pushing 100 years in age - the main drawback is that it's missing one of the '2' keys (the R/H side glass is cracked and the rubber pads at the top of the pedestal have disintegrated, but both of those problems should be solvable). Immediate questions: 1) Any idea of age? s/n is 27434. I'm leaning toward 1906 as that seems to be when the no. 3 showed up, and by October of that year there had been some 40,000 of them built - but that's assuming that the serial numbers don't carry across all models. I'm surprised if they built that many of them before they were rendered obsolete by a newer model, though. 2) The lack of '2' key is really the main thing stopping me from bringing this thing home. I expect they're common to many early Burroughs machines; is anyone known to carry parts from junk machines, or has anyone succeeded in creating a reproduction key using modern materials? cheers Jules From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Mar 8 13:55:15 2013 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 19:55:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <589134338.357865.1362772515152.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:43:21 -0800 (PST) >From: Fred Cisin > >So, is it a flat spiral or a helix? >Either one at 10" diameter is an impressively long scale, for a LOT of >accuracy! It seems like it would be physically impossible to make a flat spiral _SLIDE_ rule (where one scale can be repositioned against another scale). The Computer History Museum has a spiral slide rule (http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102633252), but it is not clear from the picture if the scales _SLIDE_ against each other. In a spiral, the area of a segment that as one degree wide by one spiral line to the next decreases as one goes toward the center, so a slide would bind if you tried to turn it toward the center or would be loose and not evenly contact the next band if you turned it away from the center. In an earlier post in this thread, someone said that they had not used their slide rule in anger. As a kid, I made something that would have been useful if they had wanted to. I took a cheap wooden slide rule, lightly sanded the groves, waxed the slide, and wrapped four big rubber bands along the length, so one end was on the outer part at one end and the other end was on the slide. Worked sort of like a cross bow or spear gun. I could send the slider through 6 layers of corrugated card board at about 20 feet! Bob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 8 13:59:35 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 11:59:35 -0800 Subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" In-Reply-To: <1362728095.79090.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1362728095.79090.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <513A4327.4000509@sydex.com> On 03/07/2013 11:34 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Okay, I've got the schematics for the Explorer 88/PC (Netronics R&D, New >> LItchfield, Conn), which uses an 8250 for async, has a separate keyboard >> and cassette interface. No video as far as I can tell. > > Would you consider sharing these with your down trodden brothers in the community who've had to go without? Google Is Your Friend. Look at the ad on page 4 of this PDF: http://www.thecomputerarchive.com/archive/Magazines/Kilobaud%20Microcomputing/Kilobaud%20Microcomputing%201983/Kilobaud%201983-07%20pages%20050-099%20Medium.pdf Netronics marketed a variety of kits--the original Explorer, which I believe was a Z80 box, the Explorer 85, which was an 8085 box and the Explorer 88/PC. Looking at the prices is somewhat germane to the original topic. Can you imagine spending $250 for a floppy controller card or $300 for a keyboard? Marcus has some "Blue Seed" stuff on his site: http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/IBM/5150%20PC/blue%20seed%20IBM%20Motherboard%20manual.PDF --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 8 14:49:50 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 12:49:50 -0800 Subject: Burroughs adding machine In-Reply-To: <513A3C1F.4000702@gmail.com> References: <513A3C1F.4000702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30089652-1D40-43B0-B6E2-8EFB46D6A10F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 8, at 11:29 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Any early Burroughs experts here? > > Yesterday I discovered a Burroughs "Style no. 3" adding machine in > a junk/antiques store (the kind of ... > 1) Any idea of age? s/n is 27434. I'm leaning toward 1906 as that > seems to be when the no. 3 showed up, and by October of that year > there had been some 40,000 of them built - but that's assuming that > the serial numbers don't carry across all models. I'm surprised if > they built that many of them before they were rendered obsolete by > a newer model, though. > > 2) The lack of '2' key is really the main thing stopping me from > bringing this thing home. I expect they're common to many early > Burroughs machines; is anyone known to carry parts from junk > machines, or has anyone succeeded in creating a reproduction key > using modern materials? Looks like you're age estimate is pretty good. According to the following site, that serial # would be 1904 - 1906: http://home.ix.netcom.com/~hancockm/when_was_it_made.htm On the home page they ask "Need a key?", but it turns out they mean the key to open the case. Probably worth asking at sites like that though. I was working on a few mechanical machines recently and someday I have to rebuild a couple of them, but I'm no expert on mech calcs. On the page you listed, they mentioned the "oil-filled dash-pot". I had to open one of these (hydraulic damper) to rebuild it a couple of weeks ago - what remained of the 70-odd-year-old oil was pretty vile. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 15:02:32 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 15:02:32 -0600 Subject: Natsemi MM5736 pinout Message-ID: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> Does anyone happen to have the pinout handy for a Natsemi MM5736 IC (mid-'70s)? In particular, I want to know which pin is GND. I came home with a little Novus 650 calculator yesterday, but the power switch (which switches the ground line) is dead - of course the keypad's heat-staked so before I waste time having to do surgery in order to clean switch contacts, I'd like to see if the calc looks like it might be otherwise functional. cheers Jules From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 15:26:14 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 13:26:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: MPX-16 (Was: BS about "changes in cost of cheapest machines" Message-ID: <1362777974.46640.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 11:59 AM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 03/07/2013 11:34 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Okay, I've got the schematics for the Explorer 88/PC (Netronics R&D, New >> LItchfield, Conn), which uses an 8250 for async, has a separate keyboard >> and cassette interface. No video as far as I can tell. >> >> Would you consider sharing these with your down trodden brothers in the community who've had to go without? > >Google Is Your Friend. Look at the ad on page 4 of this PDF: > >http://www.thecomputerarchive.com/archive/Magazines/Kilobaud%20Microcomputing/Kilobaud%20Microcomputing%201983/Kilobaud%201983-07%20pages%20050-099%20Medium.pdf > >Netronics marketed a variety of kits--the original Explorer, which I believe was a Z80 box, the Explorer 85, which was an 8085 box and the Explorer 88/PC. Looking at the prices is somewhat germane to the original topic. Can you imagine spending $250 for a floppy controller card or $300 for a keyboard? > >Marcus has some "Blue Seed" stuff on his site: > >http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/IBM/5150%20PC/blue%20seed%20IBM%20Motherboard%20manual.PDF > >--Chuck I'll check it out. Thanks for getting back. So many find my "condition" offensive. A lot of people indeed do have a problem with people's problems. I'm doing my best to address the logorreah (and my poor spelling). But Hashem it's not like it's halitosis! I feel so isolated. As long as Top Gunner doesn't consign me to the iggy bin I feel I'm making progress. I have a lot of interest in sbc's. I wish I knew how to better research them, in particular the quasi mythical millions of 80186/80188 based embedded controllers. I walked into a place in Bohemia Long Island many years ago and they were manufacturing just that. Apparently a great many small companies were doing just that - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 8 15:24:21 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 21:24:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <5138DB08.1080702@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Mar 7, 13 10:23:04 am Message-ID: > Fred, you stretched my head when you said helix vs. spiral. do you get > a helix on a flat plane with just lines on it? I thought helix would be > cylinder ruled with a line. maybe I'm taking what you meant out of It is. Helical slide rules, like the Otis King are cuylindrical with the scale forming a helix around the cylcider (like a screw thread). In the cae of the Otis King there are 2 cylders with scales that sldie one within the other and also rotate relative to each other and a cydindrical cursor that sldis and rotatesa over the outside with an indicaotr lien at eack end. To do multiplication, you set the line on the cursor agains the '1' on the lower scale and sldie//rotate the upper scale to align the line at that end of the cursor agaisn the first number on that scale. Then, keeping the 2 scales fixed realtive to each other, you move the cursor so that the bottom line is against the second number on the lower scale. The upper line then indicates the product o nthe upper scale. -tony From shumaker at att.net Fri Mar 8 16:11:01 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 14:11:01 -0800 Subject: Natsemi MM5736 pinout In-Reply-To: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> References: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> On 3/8/2013 1:02 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone happen to have the pinout handy for a Natsemi MM5736 IC > (mid-'70s)? In particular, I want to know which pin is GND. > > I came home with a little Novus 650 calculator yesterday, but the > power switch (which switches the ground line) is dead - of course the > keypad's heat-staked so before I waste time having to do surgery in > order to clean switch contacts, I'd like to see if the calc looks like > it might be otherwise functional. > > cheers > > Jules > > the 1977 NatSemi MOS/LSI Data book lists only the MM5734 and MM5737 with no reference to the MM5736. GND is shown as pin 6 on the 5737 s2 From shumaker at att.net Fri Mar 8 16:45:10 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 14:45:10 -0800 Subject: Natsemi MM5736 pinout In-Reply-To: <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> References: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> Message-ID: <513A69F6.9090807@att.net> On 3/8/2013 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 3/8/2013 1:02 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Does anyone happen to have the pinout handy for a Natsemi MM5736 IC >> (mid-'70s)? In particular, I want to know which pin is GND. >> >> I came home with a little Novus 650 calculator yesterday, but the >> power switch (which switches the ground line) is dead - of course the >> keypad's heat-staked so before I waste time having to do surgery in >> order to clean switch contacts, I'd like to see if the calc looks >> like it might be otherwise functional. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> > > the 1977 NatSemi MOS/LSI Data book lists only the MM5734 and MM5737 > with no reference to the MM5736. GND is shown as pin 6 on the 5737 > > s2 > and a bit more googling shows that probably is of no help at all. the mm5736 is a 6 digit calculator 18pin dip. the mm5737 is an 8 digit calculator 24pin dip. sorry! s2 From shumaker at att.net Fri Mar 8 16:51:11 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 14:51:11 -0800 Subject: Natsemi MM5736 pinout In-Reply-To: <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> References: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> Message-ID: <513A6B5F.9050308@att.net> On 3/8/2013 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 3/8/2013 1:02 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Does anyone happen to have the pinout handy for a Natsemi MM5736 IC >> (mid-'70s)? In particular, I want to know which pin is GND. >> >> I came home with a little Novus 650 calculator yesterday, but the >> power switch (which switches the ground line) is dead - of course the >> keypad's heat-staked so before I waste time having to do surgery in >> order to clean switch contacts, I'd like to see if the calc looks >> like it might be otherwise functional. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> > > > the 1977 NatSemi MOS/LSI Data book lists only the MM5734 and MM5737 > with no reference to the MM5736. GND is shown as pin 6 on the 5737 > > s2 > found it: GND for the MM5736 18pin DIP is Pin 18. (check out "build this electronic stopwatch" at www.schematicsforfree.com) Steve From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 8 17:03:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 15:03:51 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com> On 03/08/2013 01:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Fred, you stretched my head when you said helix vs. spiral. do you get >> a helix on a flat plane with just lines on it? I thought helix would be >> cylinder ruled with a line. maybe I'm taking what you meant out of > > It is. > > Helical slide rules, like the Otis King are cuylindrical with the scale > forming a helix around the cylcider (like a screw thread). In the cae of > the Otis King there are 2 cylders with scales that sldie one within the > other and also rotate relative to each other and a cydindrical cursor > that sldis and rotatesa over the outside with an indicaotr lien at eack end. It was my original statement that referred to "spiral" when I meant helix. On the other hand if you take the definition: "A three-dimensional curve that turns around an axis at a varying distance while moving parallel to the axis." with the variation of the distance being infinitely small, you have a helix. In other words, a helix is simply a degenerate case of a three-dimensional spiral. But I did mean "helix". --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 17:08:16 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 17:08:16 -0600 Subject: Natsemi MM5736 pinout In-Reply-To: <513A6B5F.9050308@att.net> References: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> <513A6B5F.9050308@att.net> Message-ID: <513A6F60.50903@gmail.com> On 03/08/2013 04:51 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > found it: GND for the MM5736 18pin DIP is Pin 18. (check out "build this > electronic stopwatch" at www.schematicsforfree.com) Thanks - Alexandre just beat you to that (off-list) but then the phone rang and I didn't get chance to send a "got it now" message to the list! :-) I just tried quickly and the calc fires up with 'E0' on the display, which is probably right as the manual seems to imply that 'CE/C' needs pressing before doing anything. That seems encouraging, anyway (I think the display IC is just a bunch of LED drivers with no logic element, so the core calculator IC is at least outputting sensible characters) Next step is to take the keypad apart - and I may have to bite the bullet and replace the flexible strip between the keypad and the main PCB; it's fragile as heck and the copper traces are separating from the plastic backing. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 17:26:58 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 17:26:58 -0600 Subject: Burroughs adding machine In-Reply-To: <30089652-1D40-43B0-B6E2-8EFB46D6A10F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <513A3C1F.4000702@gmail.com> <30089652-1D40-43B0-B6E2-8EFB46D6A10F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513A73C2.1030505@gmail.com> On 03/08/2013 02:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 8, at 11:29 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Any early Burroughs experts here? >> >> Yesterday I discovered a Burroughs "Style no. 3" adding machine in a >> junk/antiques store (the kind of ... >> 1) Any idea of age? s/n is 27434. I'm leaning toward 1906 as that seems >> to be when the no. 3 showed up, and by October of that year there had >> been some 40,000 of them built - but that's assuming that the serial >> numbers don't carry across all models. I'm surprised if they built that >> many of them before they were rendered obsolete by a newer model, though. >> >> 2) The lack of '2' key is really the main thing stopping me from bringing >> this thing home. I expect they're common to many early Burroughs >> machines; is anyone known to carry parts from junk machines, or has >> anyone succeeded in creating a reproduction key using modern materials? > > Looks like you're age estimate is pretty good. According to the following > site, that serial # would be 1904 - 1906: > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~hancockm/when_was_it_made.htm Thanks - I'd not stumbled across that site before, and it looks rather useful (and hopefully the guy is contactable, given the '06 "last update") The "Age by Serial Number" page is quite precise and seems to say January 6th of 1905. > On the home page they ask "Need a key?", but it turns out they mean the key > to open the case. Yes :-( There's actually a FAQ about keytops: "Keytops are quite difficult to obtain and about the only source is another, more unsalvageable machine." Hardly surprising, really. I'm not sure how difficult a reproduction would be to make - either carving from scratch, machining via a 3D process, or casting from a mold taken from one of the surviving '2' keys. For the amount of use the machine will ever get (compared to what it was designed for) it doesn't matter if the replacement isn't as robust, and even getting the color spot-on isn't too critical given that there's a certain patina of age which makes all the keys a very slightly different shade anyway. Getting the shape right is the critical thing... > Probably worth asking at sites like that though. Yep :) > I was working on a few mechanical machines recently and someday I have to > rebuild a couple of them, but I'm no expert on mech calcs. No, nor me. Slow and methodical and take lots of photos... but at least the mech isn't completely jammed up on this one, so it may well "just work" (apparently the owner of the store has run it before, but I've no idea how many years since then it's sat there) > On the page you listed, they mentioned the "oil-filled dash-pot". I had to > open one of these (hydraulic damper) to rebuild it a couple of weeks ago - > what remained of the 70-odd-year-old oil was pretty vile. I'm sure! cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 8 17:47:36 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 15:47:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <589134338.357865.1362772515152.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <589134338.357865.1362772515152.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20130308154314.Y85644@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > It seems like it would be physically impossible to make a flat spiral > _SLIDE_ rule (where one scale can be repositioned against another > scale). The Computer History Museum has a spiral slide rule > (http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102633252), but it > is not clear from the picture if the scales _SLIDE_ against each other. > In a spiral, the area of a segment that as one degree wide by one spiral > line to the next decreases as one goes toward the center, so a slide > would bind if you tried to turn it toward the center or would be loose > and not evenly contact the next band if you turned it away from the > center. Quite true. but imagine a disk with a spiral scale. Then add a CLEAR disk on top of that and scribe a scale that consists of radial lines (logarythmically positioned) The clear disk could be spun relative to the disk with the spiral scale. Similar could be done with a helix. > In an earlier post in this thread, someone said that they had not used > their slide rule in anger. As a kid, I made something that would have > been useful if they had wanted to. I took a cheap wooden slide rule, > lightly sanded the groves, waxed the slide, and wrapped four big rubber > bands along the length, so one end was on the outer part at one end and > the other end was on the slide. Worked sort of like a cross bow or spear > gun. I could send the slider through 6 layers of corrugated card board > at about 20 feet! hard to replace the ammo., and hence quite limited. Howzbout putting a stop at the end of the travel, and let it fling pencils? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 8 17:53:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 15:53:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com> References: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It was my original statement that referred to "spiral" when I meant helix. > On the other hand if you take the definition: > "A three-dimensional curve that turns around an axis at a varying > distance while moving parallel to the axis." with the variation of the > distance being infinitely small, you have a helix. In other words, a > helix is simply a degenerate case of a three-dimensional spiral. > But I did mean "helix". Nothing wrong with that. But that's why we needed clarification and disambiguation for visualization. That was why I asked whether it was like the stepper of an SA400 or like a Micropolis 5.25. Making one scale out of a transparent material opens up lots of possibilities. Or, the scale could be mechanically linked to a potentiometer, followed by either A/D or analog computation. Whoever comes up with the stupidest idea should patent it, since that's here the money will probably be. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 18:39:09 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 00:39:09 +0000 Subject: Natsemi MM5736 pinout In-Reply-To: <513A6F60.50903@gmail.com> References: <513A51E8.2010805@gmail.com> <513A61F5.1000801@att.net> <513A6B5F.9050308@att.net> <513A6F60.50903@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have one page from a send a card in type brochure/databook Dated May 1974 http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DB/DB88_National/page0375.jpg Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 8 22:09:45 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 20:09:45 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> References: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com> <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <513AB609.3000400@sydex.com> On 03/08/2013 03:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Or, the scale could be mechanically linked to a potentiometer, > followed by either A/D or analog computation. Nothing stupid about analog computers. Whatever happened to "hybrid computing"? I remember seeing a big demo at Argonne, but it sort of slipped away from notice. I've mentioned Curta calculators eariler (a (wealthy) classmate had one and it was a real hoot to play with), but I also recall a project published in Radio-Electronics(?) that used neon lamps and a couple of vacuum tubes (12AU7 type?) with a rotary telephone dial for input. Anyone ever build that one? --Chuck From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Mar 8 22:30:18 2013 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 15:00:18 +1030 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <513AB609.3000400@sydex.com> References: <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> <513AB609.3000400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2670017.1hdUn4vMpC@fubar> On Friday, March 08, 2013 08:09:45 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've mentioned Curta calculators eariler (a (wealthy) classmate had one > and it was a real hoot to play with), but I also recall a project > published in Radio-Electronics(?) that used neon lamps and a couple of > vacuum tubes (12AU7 type?) with a rotary telephone dial for input. > > Anyone ever build that one? > > --Chuck I haven't built (though I've got all the stuff here to do so), but here's the article. http://www.nzeldes.com/HOC/images/PE_1967_DialComputer.pdf Alexis. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 8 22:45:39 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:45:39 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> References: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com> <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 8, at 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > .. > Making one scale out of a transparent material opens up lots of > possibilities. > > Or, the scale could be mechanically linked to a potentiometer, > followed by either A/D or analog computation. There was this from the 60s, basically an 'electric slide rule': http://www.futurebots.com/cpu.htm look for: "Analog Computer Science Fair Computer Kit 1960's, I got one, WOW." I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. Somebody describes it here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/friendsofdigicomp/message/141 > Whoever comes up with the stupidest idea should patent it, > since that's here the money will probably be. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 8 22:58:19 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:58:19 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log scales on the dial.Dwight > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > ---snip--- > > I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". > > Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 9 01:09:52 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 23:09:52 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <2670017.1hdUn4vMpC@fubar> References: <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net> <513AB609.3000400@sydex.com> <2670017.1hdUn4vMpC@fubar> Message-ID: <513AE040.3010306@sydex.com> On 03/08/2013 08:30 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > I haven't built (though I've got all the stuff here to do so), but here's the > article. > > http://www.nzeldes.com/HOC/images/PE_1967_DialComputer.pdf That's the one, all right. Thanks! There was also a project at around the same time that involved making your own Morse-code keyboard. It used commodity switches to create a three-tier keyboard and I think didn't use much more than relays and diodes to do the job. Anyone remember that one? Those just happen to stick in my mind from that time. Of course now it would just be a sub $1 MCU with a PC keyboard, but along with those tic-tac-toe machines that used stepping relays the projects were pretty memorable as an example of what could be done with early experimenter digital electronics. --Chuck From roe at liveblockauctions.com Fri Mar 8 07:40:55 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: <5138D0E7.8080406@sydex.com> References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> <5138D0E7.8080406@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2013, at 1:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/06/2013 07:25 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > >>> dd doesn't change blocking, it's just a byte-by-byte dump, unless >>> you specify otherwise. Tar, on the other hand, looks for files. >> >> Actually, dd uses 512-byte blocks by default,and always has. At least >> since V6, anyway... > > Logical blocks, yes. But AFAIK, it has no capability to reproduce the size of physical blocks when doing a tape-to-disk transfer. How could it? Unix has no way to specify the size of variable-sized physical blocks on disk. > True, but going in the other direction, blocking factor is preserved in variable sized writes to tape. For example, if I write a series of 1k blocks to a tape, and try to read them back as 2k blocks, each read will return only 1024 bytes, at least on streaming-type tapes. I'm not sure what would happen on real magtape. So,writing a tape with dd will, by default, create 512-byte blocks. > --Chuck > > > From wilson at dbit.com Sat Mar 9 02:20:31 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 03:20:31 -0500 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> <5138D0E7.8080406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130309082031.GA13649@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 08, 2013 at 07:40:55AM -0600, Roe Peterson wrote: >True, but going in the other direction, blocking factor is preserved in >variable sized writes to tape. For example, if I write a series of 1k blocks >to a tape, and try to read them back as 2k blocks, each read will return only >1024 bytes, at least on streaming-type tapes. I'm not sure what would happen >on real magtape. The same thing. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 9 03:01:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 01:01:51 -0800 Subject: Imaging a Tape In-Reply-To: References: <51374E1E.3030706@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <05065B85-0BCF-4196-9C06-1F7018B52097@liveblockauctions.com> <5138D0E7.8080406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <513AFA7F.2080305@sydex.com> On 03/08/2013 05:40 AM, Roe Peterson wrote: > True, but going in the other direction, blocking factor is preserved > in variable sized writes to tape. For example, if I write a series of > 1k blocks to a tape, and try to read them back as 2k blocks, each > read will return only 1024 bytes, at least on streaming-type tapes. > I'm not sure what would happen on real magtape. > > So,writing a tape with dd will, by default, create 512-byte blocks. I think we have a problem with nomenclature. To me, "blocking factor" is the number of records placed in a block. So, if you're writing 2048 byte physical blocks, with a record length of 512 bytes, the blocking factor is 4. What I'm talking about is preserving physical block length. IIRC, there is a minimum block length (2 bytes or thereabouts?) that most drives treat as "noise" and discard. AFAIK, there is no maximum defined physical block length--the limitation there seems to be mostly in operating systems or controller/formatter use. But it is possible to write blocks on a tape that are many times the size of physical memory on some systems. I think telemetry systems used to do just that. On CDC SCOPE, there were three basic tape drivers--standard (512 words per physical block, short last block; no particular blocking factor), "stranger" (any odd block size up to 512 words; treated as one logical record per physical block) and "long" tapes--no limit on physical record size. The "L" tape, in theory, could treat the entire reel of tape as a single record. So long as the user program could empty the buffer on read and fill it on write, the tape would continue to spin. Can one do the same with Unix? I've never tried. The ultra-short physical blocks could be used for great sound effects as the drives used a vacuum capstan system which was regulated by a large voice-coil valve. --Chuck From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 9 09:18:04 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 10:18:04 -0500 Subject: Available retro-computing PCBs Message-ID: <001d01ce1cd9$6c12b790$443826b0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi There are many N8VEM PCBs remaining for the ECB systems http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB%20Inventory There are about three S-100 Regular Prototyping boards (non-buffered) and about seven S-100 LAVA board PCBs http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm For planning purposes, I've ordered another batch of the XT-IDE V2 PCBs which should be here in late Mar 2013 http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 The initial batch of twenty XT-FDC V1 PCBs will be here for the initial builders in late Mar 2013 http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XT-FDC+Rev1 Finally, I am planning on ordering the second prototype board for the SCSI to IDE/SD (aka S2I) bridge board as soon as the PCB gets updated with all the builder feedback. Hopefully this will be in the next few days. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/62549548/S2I%20Firmware%20Status If you are interested in any of the above projects please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 9 14:56:08 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 12:56:08 -0800 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca> That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much as one can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it was taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not give an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but doesn't say which issue. On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log scales on > the dial.Dwight >> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >> ---snip--- >> >> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". >> >> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 10 09:36:26 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 07:36:26 -0700 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, , <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Actually, after giving it a little thought, it would use linearpots and scales. It would be voltage dividers and a balancingmeter.Remeber, a pot forms a ratio across a resistor.Dwight > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much as one > can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it was > taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem > there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not give > an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so > you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. > > Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a > similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but > doesn't say which issue. > > > On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log scales on > > the dial.Dwight > >> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > >> ---snip--- > >> > >> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". > >> > >> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 13:32:03 2013 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:32:03 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice Message-ID: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> Hi everyone, I recently obtained a box of stuff. The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. My options appear to be purchasing a complete chassis with a backplane, power supply, and IO-- or alternatively building my own replacements for these parts. I'd also need a disk at some point, but for now that's out of scope. Can anyone comment on the feasibility of either of these options? Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple models that will take this board set? Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my own of? Cheers, - Ian Sent via mobile. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 10 13:50:54 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:50:54 -0700 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: ,<513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, , <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , , , <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: I did some searching on the web but I was surprisedthat no one has posted a schematic for it.Dwight > Actually, after giving it a little thought, it would use linearpots and scales. It would be voltage dividers and a balancingmeter.Remeber, a pot forms a ratio across a resistor.Dwight > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > > > That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much as one > > can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it was > > taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem > > there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not give > > an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so > > you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. > > > > Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a > > similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but > > doesn't say which issue. > > > > > > On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log scales on > > > the dial.Dwight > > >> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > >> ---snip--- > > >> > > >> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". > > >> > > >> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. > > > From wilson at dbit.com Sun Mar 10 13:54:38 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:54:38 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20130310185438.GA9508@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 11:32:03AM -0700, Ian Finder wrote: >Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my >own of? Not literally impossible but quite a project since no one (that I know of) still makes connectors that are an exact fit. EDAC makes shallower ones with the correct finger spacing though, so you could use those as long as you add guides/shims etc. to ensure alignment (or just require that the boards be plugged in very carefully). John Wilson D Bit From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 10 14:22:40 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:22:40 -0700 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: , <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, , <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , , , <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <0AFA2080-3618-458E-8D27-64A7BA029151@cs.ubc.ca> Well, I assumed it was doing a simple V R ratio / sum-of-logs of two of the controls with a null-point balance with the third, however one of the sites on the web showed a bag of caps and transistors involved in the construction so perhaps it's using some AC principle, or that may be a mislead. I'm going to try to find the PE article in the library at the radio museum this afternoon. On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I did some searching on the web but I was surprisedthat no one has > posted a schematic for it.Dwight > >> Actually, after giving it a little thought, it would use >> linearpots and scales. It would be voltage dividers and a >> balancingmeter.Remeber, a pot forms a ratio across a resistor.Dwight >>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >> >>> >>> That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much as one >>> can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it >>> was >>> taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem >>> there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not give >>> an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so >>> you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. >>> >>> Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a >>> similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but >>> doesn't say which issue. >>> >>> >>> On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>>> Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log scales on >>>> the dial.Dwight >>>>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>>>> ---snip--- >>>>> >>>>> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". >>>>> >>>>> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. >>> From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 10 14:37:31 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:37:31 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <513CE0FB.1010300@compsys.to> >Ian Finder wrote: > Hi everyone, > >I recently obtained a box of stuff. > >The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! > >I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great >to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. > >My options appear to be purchasing a complete chassis with a backplane, >power supply, and IO-- or alternatively building my own replacements for >these parts. > >I'd also need a disk at some point, but for now that's out of scope. > >Can anyone comment on the feasibility of either of these options? > >Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple >models that will take this board set? > >Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my >own of? > As John Wilson suggested, a back plane and power supply is not at all easy. You did not mention your location or the specific PDP-11/23 boards. That would make quite a difference in both aspects. Since a number of classiccmp individuals may have extra PDP-11 boxes who may even be near you, mention both things. The big difference between PDP-11/23 boards is between the dual (M8186) and the (quad) M8189. Normally, the latter board was placed in a BA23 while the former usually used a BA-11. Let the rest of the list know. Jerome Fine From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 14:38:42 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 15:38:42 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hello Ian, In terms of the 11/23 any of the BA11-N chassis work, so to do BA23 boxes,if you are careful with your board layout, and if you have the KDF11-A version of the 11/23 even the BA11-V box will work. Important also is you specific backplane, the later revision KDF11-A can use a 22-bit backplane for 4MB of RAM while the early KDF11-A can only do 18-bit. The KDF11-B (11/23+) is always 22-bit. In any case a 22-bit processor will be happy in an 18-bit backplane. Though, do note that the 11/23+ won't play nice with the Q/CD backolanes, if I remember correctly. In terms of getting a chassis, the BA11-N box looks the best in my opinion, but do note the backplanes for different BA11-N boxes are different. The three that I know of are the H9273 Q18/CD, the H9275 Q22 serpentine and H9276 Q22/CD. A BA11-N with H9275 is one of the best combinations possible. Second best chassis is probably the BA23, which has two rows of Q22/CD and the rest are all Q22 serpentine. In terms of I/O, all you really need to get started is two serial ports, one for console terminal and one for a virtual TU58 DECtape II. In terms of disk, your easiest to find option is probably an RQDX* of some version, though they want ST-506 interface hard disks and Shugart interface floppies. The solution to which you'll find easier to find drices (or equivalents) is a SCSI controller, but those tend to cost a pretty penny. (Though if you can find one a CMD CQD-220A/TM (note its A/TM not A/M/T) gives you a lovely SCSI hard disk and tape controller in one. The A/M/T is either tape or hard disk, not both.) If you want to roll your own, try and find a chassisless H9275 backplane, and bodge together a PSU and a controller board. Otherwise, well to put it lightly "DEC connectors" are expensive, and making a backplane is not an easy task. Cheers, Christian On Sunday, 10 March 2013, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I recently obtained a box of stuff. > > The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! > > I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great > to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. > > My options appear to be purchasing a complete chassis with a backplane, > power supply, and IO-- or alternatively building my own replacements for > these parts. > > I'd also need a disk at some point, but for now that's out of scope. > > Can anyone comment on the feasibility of either of these options? > > Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple > models that will take this board set? > > Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my > own of? > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > > Sent via mobile. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 10 15:15:34 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:15:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> from "Ian Finder" at Mar 10, 13 11:32:03 am Message-ID: > > Hi everyone, > > I recently obtained a box of stuff. > > The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! > > I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great > to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. What boards do you have. There will be numbers of the form 'Mxxxx' pn the handels, thaose number will eman somethign to some people here. Of coruse fi you know what the boards are, let us know :-) > > My options appear to be purchasing a complete chassis with a backplane, > power supply, and IO-- or alternatively building my own replacements for > these parts. What do you mean by 'I/O' ? Do you have any I/O boards in the box of bits? IIRC the 11/23 CPU doesn;'t have an on-board serial port (is there a version that does?), you will at least need a seiral port at he console address. A DLV11-J is thge most commo way of doign that, in which case you just need to make up the cable. If you have a CPU oard with on-board seiral ports, there would be a 'bulkhead' panel for this,, but it's really jsut swithces and conenctors and cab be easily home-brewed. The backplane you need is a Qbus one. The PSU is a little more than a simple power supply, it also prvides ACLO and DCLO (basically power-OK signals) and a line-time clock (at twice mains frequency IIRC). It _can_ be homebrewed, but Qbus boxes/backplaens/PSUs are not that rare, and jsut about any one can work, possibly with very minor modifications. The backplan e is just connecotrs, no logic. The main problem in making one is gettign the right conencotrs (DEC used 18-pins-on-a-side, double sided, 0.125" pitch conenctors). Normally if you need such conenctors for a custmo job the easiest way is to raid them form a spare backplane, shich sutggests the backplanes are easier to find than the conencotrs. And qhile there are many times of backplane, plain Qbus ones are among the most common. > > I'd also need a disk at some point, but for now that's out of scope. > Do you have a disk controller PCB in the box? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 10 15:19:42 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:19:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <20130310185438.GA9508@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 10, 13 02:54:38 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 11:32:03AM -0700, Ian Finder wrote: > >Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my > >own of? > > Not literally impossible but quite a project since no one (that I know of) > still makes connectors that are an exact fit. EDAC makes shallower ones with > the correct finger spacing though, so you could use those as long as you I have seen a (Unibs-cable-socket, but it's the same connecotr) that was made using a longer (amybe even S100 bus) edge conencotr with bits of plain fibregalss board epoxied in to locare th eDEC board correctly. I wouldn't recomend it. The other problem is thst you are deaing with relatively high-seed logic signals. You do have to use twised-pair wire (twi=sed iw tha groudn wire) for some of the signals. Making a backplane is possible, I did it. Mine was for Unibus, and i did have hte right DEC connctor blocks and frame, so it was 'just' a matter of getting the wire-wrap right. Even so, look around for the right one first. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 15:24:23 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 16:24:23 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EF47DB2-935F-4DF8-B4CE-73C66B0220C7@gmail.com> On Mar 10, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I recently obtained a box of stuff. > > The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! What are we calling a "complete boardset"? At minimum, an 11/23 could just be the CPU (and, ideally, some RAM), though if you have the KDF11-A, you'd also probably want a bootstrap ROM board. > I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great > to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. That's what I've done. It's not hard! I would like to have a chassis at some point, but mine is happy enough as a bare backplane (with an appropriate fan blowing through it, of course). > My options appear to be purchasing a complete chassis with a backplane, > power supply, and IO-- or alternatively building my own replacements for > these parts. > > I'd also need a disk at some point, but for now that's out of scope. > > Can anyone comment on the feasibility of either of these options? I got mine piecewise. I managed to land an H9270 relatively cheaply on eBay; that's the 4x4 serpentine QBUS backplane that originally came in the BA11-M box (if anyone happens to have the chassis and power supply to sell, I'd be much obliged). I attached a PC power supply that I hacked up to the screw terminals; make sure it's beefy enough, and that you're running enough wires to each terminal, because I have gotten the PC supply wires hot enough to melt the insulation. And of course, MAKE SURE you have decent ventilation running through it; most QBUS boards burned at least a few watts each, so there's some serious heat building up there if you don't have a fan running. Set the boards vertically if you can as well, so you can take some advantage of natural convection. The auxiliary things that the power supply/front panel provide had to be put together myself; the reset and halt switches (and power-on-reset) I bodged up with some TTL gates and transistors, while I've made a sorta-working line clock with a 555 (it's not very accurate, but most operating systems don't work at all without it, so better than nothing; I'd gladly make a line clock like what's in the power supply, but since at the moment I don't have much to build enclosures I'd rather not have bare mains-level wires sitting atop my workbench). For disks, keep an eye out for SCSI cards. I got a nice CMD CQD-220 off eBay a while back (from a list member, but I wasn't on the list at the time) which has done the trick very well. Zip disks make nice 100 MB drives, even if they're not exactly vintage; they also have the advantage that you can blast a disk image from SIMH straight onto them, so you don't have to acquire tape drives or the like to get your OS installed (though more's the fun if you can). > Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple > models that will take this board set? Anything that has QBUS will take the 11/23. If you have the KDF11-B board (the quad width one with ROMs and console line units), there's a jumper pair for grant continuity if you're installing it into a serpentine backplane (like the H9270) which can be removed if it's going into a straight-through backplane. The H9270 is 18-bit addressed, but they were nice enough to run wire-wrap stakes all the way through to the back, which makes it very easy to modify (non-permanently, even) to 22-bit. I did so in an evening, and it's worked quite well. > Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my > own of? Well, you *can*. I wouldn't recommend it. Lots of signals, probably lots of layers, mechanical stability issues, etc. Also, as John Wilson mentioned, it's hard to find proper sockets. I know Douglas claims to sell DEC sockets that they use on their extender boards, but I have no idea how compatible they are: http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/accessories.html And obviously, putting more than a few of those sockets on a backplane (the 4x4 H9270 is a small backplane) might cost you more than finding one on eBay would. For example, you can get an H9273 (4x9, straight through) for $105 on eBay right now (http://r.ebay.com/FnKkpB). Best of luck! - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Sun Mar 10 17:03:00 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:03:00 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: References: <20130310185438.GA9508@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20130310220300.GA11066@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 08:19:42PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >I have seen a (Unibs-cable-socket, but it's the same connecotr) that was >made using a longer (amybe even S100 bus) edge conencotr with bits of >plain fibregalss board epoxied in to locare th eDEC board correctly. I >wouldn't recomend it. Was it a bad fit, or what else is wrong with doing that? I was thinking of trying that (for a PDP-8 Posibus/Negibus project) since I figured, PCB houses do decently accurate outlines (better than I'll get with a hacksaw and a file for sure) very cheaply. Plan B was to use various sizes of flat bar stock (either nylon or aluminum) screwed down (with spacers) perpendicularly over the tops of the connectors. That way you'd get the correct shoulders for the flip-chip keying, but it'd be fiddly to assemble. John Wilson D Bit From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Mar 10 19:39:27 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:39:27 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <513D27BF.7090304@verizon.net> On 03/10/2013 02:32 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I recently obtained a box of stuff. > > The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! > > I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great > to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. > > My options appear to be purchasing a complete chassis with a backplane, > power supply, and IO-- or alternatively building my own replacements for > these parts. The key item is a backplane, they are around so find one rather than trying to make one. Boxes complete are not that much harder to find though the PS may need to be checked/repaired. Power supply is +12, -12, +5 and has AC-low, DC-LO and BEVENT (for 50/60hz real time clock used in most all in software). PC supply does not do all this. Candidates, BA11 series, BA23, BA123. Heathkit H11 also was compatable though it was only Q16. Qbus came in three forms, Q16 used for the first machines with LSI-11 cpu. Later were the Q18 (18bit wide address bus) and Q22 (22bit wide address bus). The Q22 is preferred but the earlier ones can have wires added to make them Q22. FYI and BIG suggestions find a copy of the "PDP-11 Microcomputer Handbook" (digital Equipment corp press) one from the 1981 to '87 time frame is handy to have. You will learn DEC terminology and they contain important programming and configuration information. > > Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple > models that will take this board set? If its Qbus it's likely a suitable candidate. Geography defines how easy it is to find stuff. Here in MA I tend to trip on it and I could not even give it away. In foreign countries not so much L'll bet. > Alternatively, is the backplane something fancy I'd be unable to roll my > own of? Not a reasonable task. Connectors are scarce, expensive, and accurate placement is a big thing. Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 21:16:09 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:16:09 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <513D27BF.7090304@verizon.net> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> <513D27BF.7090304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <434DF1F6-C7C1-40D7-B99A-2A4A4F6EEDED@gmail.com> On Mar 10, 2013, at 8:39 PM, allison wrote: >> Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple >> models that will take this board set? > If its Qbus it's likely a suitable candidate. > > Geography defines how easy it is to find stuff. Here in MA I tend to trip on it > and I could not even give it away. In foreign countries not so much L'll bet. I'll repeat my previous offer (made after you mentioned you had to take some BA123s to the dump): If you'll ship a BA11-M, -N or -S, or a BA23 or BA123, I'll pay shipping and a reasonable fee. Around here (Philadelphia), they are surprisingly scarce (either that, or I'm looking in ALL the wrong places). In Europe, BA123s seem to abound (or at least, that's where I see most of the offers around these parts coming from, specifically the Netherlands). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 10 21:25:44 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:25:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <434DF1F6-C7C1-40D7-B99A-2A4A4F6EEDED@gmail.com> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> <513D27BF.7090304@verizon.net> <434DF1F6-C7C1-40D7-B99A-2A4A4F6EEDED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513D40A8.8090701@neurotica.com> On 03/10/2013 10:16 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 10, 2013, at 8:39 PM, allison wrote: > >>> Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple >>> models that will take this board set? >> If its Qbus it's likely a suitable candidate. >> >> Geography defines how easy it is to find stuff. Here in MA I tend to trip on it >> and I could not even give it away. In foreign countries not so much L'll bet. > > I'll repeat my previous offer (made after you mentioned you had to > take some BA123s to the dump): If you'll ship a BA11-M, -N or -S, > or a BA23 or BA123, I'll pay shipping and a reasonable fee. Around > here (Philadelphia), they are surprisingly scarce (either that, or > I'm looking in ALL the wrong places). They seem to be scarce everywhere but MA. I drove to Maryland last week to pick one up, even though it's missing its side panels. (it'll be parts to repair others) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 23:48:20 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:48:20 -0500 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced Message-ID: found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical-Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 10 23:58:40 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:58:40 -0700 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: <0AFA2080-3618-458E-8D27-64A7BA029151@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, ,,<20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, , ,,, ,,, , , <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , <0AFA2080-3618-458E-8D27-64A7BA029151@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: It seems like I recall two types. There was the one withthe linear scale ( radio shack ) and another with log scales.Dwight > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > Well, I assumed it was doing a simple V R ratio / sum-of-logs of two > of the controls with a null-point balance with the third, however one > of the sites on the web showed a bag of caps and transistors involved > in the construction so perhaps it's using some AC principle, or that > may be a mislead. > > I'm going to try to find the PE article in the library at the radio > museum this afternoon. > > > On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I did some searching on the web but I was surprisedthat no one has > > posted a schematic for it.Dwight > > > >> Actually, after giving it a little thought, it would use > >> linearpots and scales. It would be voltage dividers and a > >> balancingmeter.Remeber, a pot forms a ratio across a resistor.Dwight > >>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > >> > >>> > >>> That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much as one > >>> can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it > >>> was > >>> taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem > >>> there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not give > >>> an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so > >>> you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. > >>> > >>> Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a > >>> similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but > >>> doesn't say which issue. > >>> > >>> > >>> On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > >>>> Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log scales on > >>>> the dial.Dwight > >>>>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > >>>>> ---snip--- > >>>>> > >>>>> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". > >>>>> > >>>>> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. > >>> From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 00:33:16 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:33:16 -0700 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: , <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, , , <20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , , , , , , <3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , <0AFA2080-3618-458E-8D27-64A7BA029151@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The Popular Electronics article is December 1961. I think it is as you are suggesting, two cascaded pots, both wired as voltage dividers, so you get two ratios and hence mulitplication: Vout = Vin* (R1p/R1t)*(R2p/R2t) where p & t are the position and total Rs, Vout is then null balanced against the third pot. The 2nd pot R is much larger than the 1st to minimise loading error on the 1st. Apparently some versions used a meter and DC, and some used an audio oscillator and AC, with headphones replacing the null meter, which explains the caps and transistors I saw. No logs and even simpler than I thought. On 2013 Mar 10, at 9:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > It seems like I recall two types. There was the one withthe linear > scale ( radio shack ) and another with log scales.Dwight >> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > >> >> Well, I assumed it was doing a simple V R ratio / sum-of-logs of two >> of the controls with a null-point balance with the third, however one >> of the sites on the web showed a bag of caps and transistors involved >> in the construction so perhaps it's using some AC principle, or that >> may be a mislead. >> >> I'm going to try to find the PE article in the library at the radio >> museum this afternoon. >> >> >> On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> I did some searching on the web but I was surprisedthat no one has >>> posted a schematic for it.Dwight >>> >>>> Actually, after giving it a little thought, it would use >>>> linearpots and scales. It would be voltage dividers and a >>>> balancingmeter.Remeber, a pot forms a ratio across a >>>> resistor.Dwight >>>>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much >>>>> as one >>>>> can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it >>>>> was >>>>> taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem >>>>> there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not >>>>> give >>>>> an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so >>>>> you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. >>>>> >>>>> Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a >>>>> similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but >>>>> doesn't say which issue. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>>>>> Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log >>>>>> scales on >>>>>> the dial.Dwight >>>>>>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>>>>>> ---snip--- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 00:38:38 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:38:38 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 10, at 9:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical- > Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978? > pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a I'm inclined to say dream on (for the seller), but then, the "NASA Rope Memory" mentioned a week or so ago went for 1200$, so what do I know. Raytheon NASA Rope Memeory Module B28 Winning bid US $1,234.88 10 bids http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/ 111020115489?nma=true&si=L%252FKVS6tRa6NElBM%252FimfqSWLCRxk% 253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1755wt_0 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 11 00:46:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 01:46:09 -0400 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513D6FA1.6030106@neurotica.com> On 03/11/2013 01:38 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 10, at 9:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical-Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a >> > > > I'm inclined to say dream on (for the seller), but then, the "NASA Rope > Memory" mentioned a week or so ago went for 1200$, so what do I know. > > Raytheon NASA Rope Memeory Module B28 > > Winning bid US $1,234.88 > 10 bids > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/111020115489?nma=true&si=L%252FKVS6tRa6NElBM%252FimfqSWLCRxk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1755wt_0 I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 00:55:25 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:55:25 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513D71CD.2050602@gmail.com> On 3/10/2013 9:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical-Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a Those are the guys that have been selling Sellam's stuff. Thing looks a little stripped to me. Probably a parts machine at some point. Not like you can replace the entire keyboard and the front bezel. They are dreaming. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 00:57:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:57:51 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> On 03/10/2013 09:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical-Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a > One of Sellam's units, I believe. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 01:01:46 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:01:46 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> On 3/10/2013 10:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 10, at 9:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical-Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a >> > > > I'm inclined to say dream on (for the seller), but then, the "NASA > Rope Memory" mentioned a week or so ago went for 1200$, so what do I > know. > > Raytheon NASA Rope Memeory Module B28 > > Winning bid US $1,234.88 > 10 bids > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/111020115489?nma=true&si=L%252FKVS6tRa6NElBM%252FimfqSWLCRxk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1755wt_0 > > You know that was actually an Apollo guidance computer rope memory module right ? I was surprised it only went for $1,200. If someone could find out exactly what it was from I bet you could times by ten what it sold for at least. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 11 01:15:22 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:15:22 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513D767A.4070201@jwsss.com> On 3/10/2013 9:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-Computer-Graphical-Display-Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccf96759a > > more of selam's lost collection From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 01:41:34 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:41:34 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. > On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/10/2013 10:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> .., the "NASA Rope Memory" mentioned a week or so ago went for 1200 >> $, so what do I know. >> >> Raytheon NASA Rope Memeory Module B28 >> >> Winning bid US $1,234.88 >> 10 bids >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/ >> 111020115489?nma=true&si=L%252FKVS6tRa6NElBM%252FimfqSWLCRxk% >> 253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1755wt_0 >> > You know that was actually an Apollo guidance computer rope memory > module right ? I was surprised it only went for $1,200. If someone > could find out exactly what it was from I bet you could times by > ten what it sold for at least. Yes, I realise that was the claim, although I haven't seen it confirmed. I'm not saying they're wrong, it should be traceable given the id stamped on it. Nonetheless, the selling price kind of surprised me for what is a fairly undistinguished module (and I'm well aware of what core rope is, however not many people are). Hypothetically speaking, were a keypad/display module for the AGC ever to show up on ebay, it would be another matter - that I would expect to go for big bucks. It's just interesting - is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors (computers AND Apollo) for a certain set of people (not trying to be derisive, I could be in that set). From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 02:00:53 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 00:00:53 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> On 3/10/2013 11:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. >> > > On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 3/10/2013 10:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> .., the "NASA Rope Memory" mentioned a week or so ago went for >>> 1200$, so what do I know. >>> >>> Raytheon NASA Rope Memeory Module B28 >>> >>> Winning bid US $1,234.88 >>> 10 bids >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/111020115489?nma=true&si=L%252FKVS6tRa6NElBM%252FimfqSWLCRxk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1755wt_0 >>> >>> >> You know that was actually an Apollo guidance computer rope memory >> module right ? I was surprised it only went for $1,200. If someone >> could find out exactly what it was from I bet you could times by ten >> what it sold for at least. > > Yes, I realise that was the claim, although I haven't seen it > confirmed. I'm not saying they're wrong, it should be traceable given > the id stamped on it. > > Nonetheless, the selling price kind of surprised me for what is a > fairly undistinguished module (and I'm well aware of what core rope > is, however not many people are). Hypothetically speaking, were a > keypad/display module for the AGC ever to show up on ebay, it would be > another matter - that I would expect to go for big bucks. > > It's just interesting - is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, > or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors > (computers AND Apollo) for a certain set of people (not trying to be > derisive, I could be in that set). Do you have another reasonable explanation what it might have been ? That is clearly a AGC module to me. It may not have ever flown to the moon but, there is no mistaking it. Another one google showed me had B21. B28 was probably what program it contained. It would be very cool to get the code off these. It could have been stupid test routines or maybe it was some sort of suicide protocol. I think a case could be made that these are government property and really were never meant to be sold. If NASA decided they wanted them back I imagine they could be taken back. So far they aren't up to Apollo computing artifacts yet. From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Mar 10 19:30:47 2013 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:30:47 -0400 Subject: PDP11/83 power up results - Thanks to members of cctalk who helped Message-ID: <0364880C3C934C59BBDE2A84F1E1055E@OptiplexGX620> To all who provided kind assistance and advice. Finally had the time to properly power up some 11/83 Qbus cards. A KDJ-11B and 2 MSV1J's in a BA213 chassis, formerly a DECserver 550. The following is the power messages. ----------------------------------------------------- Testing in progress - Please wait Memory Size is 4088 K Bytes 9 Step memory test Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting automatic boot Trying MU0 Message 14 Non existent controller, address 17774500 Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: LIST Device Unit name numbers Source Device type DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP 18.000 MHz CPU Options: FPA Memory Map Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus Address address K Bytes address type type 00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772100 ECC PMI 10000000 - 17757776 2040 17772104 ECC PMI Press the RETURN key when ready to continue I/O page Map Starting Ending Address address 17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM 17772100 Memory CSR 17772104 Memory CSR 17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's 17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's 17772516 MMR3 17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM 17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR 17777546 Clock CSR 17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU 17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2 17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's 17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss 17777766 CPU Error 17777772 PIRQ 17777776 PSW Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: ------------------------------------------------------- Continuing on to the next step is providing some storage media to hold RSX11M. I have a CMD SCSI controller to start with. I suppose by the time I finish SimH will look to be the easier route, but old hardware has a bit of a class to it. Dan Snyder Butler, PA USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 11 02:14:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 03:14:35 -0400 Subject: PDP11/83 power up results - Thanks to members of cctalk who helped In-Reply-To: <0364880C3C934C59BBDE2A84F1E1055E@OptiplexGX620> References: <0364880C3C934C59BBDE2A84F1E1055E@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: <513D845B.6080507@neurotica.com> On 03/10/2013 08:30 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > To all who provided kind assistance and advice. > > Finally had the time to properly power up some 11/83 Qbus > cards. A KDJ-11B and 2 MSV1J's in a BA213 chassis, formerly > a DECserver 550. The following is the power messages. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Testing in progress - Please wait > Memory Size is 4088 K Bytes > 9 Step memory test > Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > Starting automatic boot > > > Trying MU0 > > Message 14 > Non existent controller, address 17774500 > > Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. > Type a command then press the RETURN key: LIST > > Device Unit > name numbers Source Device type > > DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn > DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 > DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 > DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 > DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 > DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 > MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 > MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 > XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET > NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 > NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E > NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F > > Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. > Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP > > > 18.000 MHz > CPU Options: FPA > > Memory Map > Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus > Address address K Bytes address type type > > 00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772100 ECC PMI > 10000000 - 17757776 2040 17772104 ECC PMI > > Press the RETURN key when ready to continue > > I/O page Map > Starting Ending > Address address > > 17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM > 17772100 Memory CSR > 17772104 Memory CSR > 17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's > 17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's > 17772516 MMR3 > 17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM > 17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR > 17777546 Clock CSR > 17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU > 17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2 > 17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's > 17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss > 17777766 CPU Error > 17777772 PIRQ > 17777776 PSW > > Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. > Type a command then press the RETURN key: > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Continuing on to the next step is providing some storage > media to hold RSX11M. I have a CMD SCSI controller to start > with. I suppose by the time I finish SimH will look to be the easier > route, but old hardware has a bit of a class to it. Great work!! > Dan Snyder > Butler, PA USA "Hey!" from down Route 28! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 11 02:46:48 2013 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 00:46:48 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> References: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/10/2013 09:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> found this on ebay tonight for 19k or 65k buy it now :O holy crap... >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/**Vintage-Rare-Imlac-PDS-1-** >> Computer-Graphical-Display-**Workstation-Like-PDP-8-DEC-/** >> 261180781978?pt=US_Vintage_**Computers_Mainframes&hash=**item3ccf96759a >> >> > One of Sellam's units, I believe. > Yeah, I gave that to him over 10 years ago. It was a rescue from a former SAIL hacker's garage. It had been stored next to his dryer vent and was pretty severely corroded. I documented it a bit here: http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/imlac/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 11 05:09:10 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:09:10 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <434DF1F6-C7C1-40D7-B99A-2A4A4F6EEDED@gmail.com> References: <-2249939151945307910@unknownmsgid> <513D27BF.7090304@verizon.net> <434DF1F6-C7C1-40D7-B99A-2A4A4F6EEDED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513DAD46.2010300@verizon.net> On 03/10/2013 10:16 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 10, 2013, at 8:39 PM, allison wrote: > >>> Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple >>> models that will take this board set? >> If its Qbus it's likely a suitable candidate. >> >> Geography defines how easy it is to find stuff. Here in MA I tend to trip on it >> and I could not even give it away. In foreign countries not so much L'll bet. > I'll repeat my previous offer (made after you mentioned you had to > take some BA123s to the dump): If you'll ship a BA11-M, -N or -S, > or a BA23 or BA123, I'll pay shipping and a reasonable fee. Around > here (Philadelphia), they are surprisingly scarce (either that, or > I'm looking in ALL the wrong places). Either that or I look in all the right dumpsters. I took the 123s to the dump. Reason is crating for shipment would be expensive. They weight more than I can lift easily. BA23s are amazingly heavy as are BA11s. For that reason when I have excess I've always made it clear shipping is NOT going to happen. They just don't go in a cardboard box via UPS. So happens I have a complete BA11 box with cards last used it was operational. However shipping if out of the question, can't pay me enough to deal with that. With that I'll add this... Over the years Ive gotten a lot of systems and parts because people got into the hobby and found they could not deal with the space or technical issues. I've see a lot more go to the dumpster for the same reasons. Often the collection they have is a lot of random hardware and really short of docs. Without documentation your not going to get far and the internet is not all the answer. Consider that before you start. Allison From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 11 07:59:16 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 08:59:16 -0400 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/03/13 2:41 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. >> > > ... is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, > or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors They're not making it any more. (They're not making moon trips any more either.) --T From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 11 09:44:28 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 07:44:28 -0700 Subject: Slide Rules In-Reply-To: References: , <513A6E57.1020407@sydex.com>, , ,,<20130308154806.L85644@shell.lmi.net>, , , ,,, , ,,, , ,,<3BF2EA42-1C10-4CC9-ACB6-617372E91C2D@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , , , , <0AFA2080-3618-458E-8D27-64A7BA029151@cs.ubc.ca>, , Message-ID: I think the RS one used some of the transistors as a buffer to isolatethe pots as well.Dwight > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > The Popular Electronics article is December 1961. I think it is as > you are suggesting, two cascaded pots, both wired as voltage > dividers, so you get two ratios and hence mulitplication: Vout = Vin* > (R1p/R1t)*(R2p/R2t) where p & t are the position and total Rs, Vout > is then null balanced against the third pot. The 2nd pot R is much > larger than the 1st to minimise loading error on the 1st. > > Apparently some versions used a meter and DC, and some used an audio > oscillator and AC, with headphones replacing the null meter, which > explains the caps and transistors I saw. > > No logs and even simpler than I thought. > > > On 2013 Mar 10, at 9:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > It seems like I recall two types. There was the one withthe linear > > scale ( radio shack ) and another with log scales.Dwight > >> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > >> > >> Well, I assumed it was doing a simple V R ratio / sum-of-logs of two > >> of the controls with a null-point balance with the third, however one > >> of the sites on the web showed a bag of caps and transistors involved > >> in the construction so perhaps it's using some AC principle, or that > >> may be a mislead. > >> > >> I'm going to try to find the PE article in the library at the radio > >> museum this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> > >>> I did some searching on the web but I was surprisedthat no one has > >>> posted a schematic for it.Dwight > >>> > >>>> Actually, after giving it a little thought, it would use > >>>> linearpots and scales. It would be voltage dividers and a > >>>> balancingmeter.Remeber, a pot forms a ratio across a > >>>> resistor.Dwight > >>>>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> That's what I was expecting, but looking at the dial (as much > >>>>> as one > >>>>> can see in the photos), they appear to be linear, so I figured it > >>>>> was > >>>>> taking advantage of log pots (or is there a log/anti-log problem > >>>>> there anyways?). Considering it more, a typical log pot may not > >>>>> give > >>>>> an accurate enough log function to be very good for the task, so > >>>>> you're probably right. Maybe there's another principle involved. > >>>>> > >>>>> Another web site refers to a popular electronics article with a > >>>>> similar design (I think I've seen the article in the past) but > >>>>> doesn't say which issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2013 Mar 8, at 8:58 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > >>>>>> Actually it makes more sense to use alinear one with log > >>>>>> scales on > >>>>>> the dial.Dwight > >>>>>>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > >>>>>>> ---snip--- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I like how the box says "As accurate as a slide-rule". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Presumably it uses standard log pots, aka volume controls. > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Mar 11 09:53:08 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 09:53:08 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice Message-ID: <2BF26BEC-58D6-4DC4-8346-B4B10F291F04@centurytel.net> I have a H9273-A backplane gathering dust that I'll sell cheap. -Charles From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 12:55:10 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:55:10 -0700 Subject: Apex / Avocent Outlook EL-40DT EL80DT KVM Switch Firmware Message-ID: Anyone have any old Apex / Avocent Outlook EL-40DT or EL80DT KVM switches around that could check to see which firmware version they have, and if they happen to have firmware version 2.0.3 (or newer) do you also have the means to dump the firmware EPROM to an binary image file? Or does anyone already have a binary image file of the 2.0.3 firmware? I can't find that anywhere on the net. It appears that Apex / Avocent might have only sold the firmware update as a replacement EPROM (as part EL-80DT-FW) and didn't make the image available for download on their website. If you have one of these KVM switches the firmware version can be displayed as shown in page 52 of this manual: ftp://ftp.avocent.com/public/product-upgrades/Outlook/EL40-80DT/OL_DT_UG.pdf -Glen From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 11 14:11:02 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 12:11:02 -0700 Subject: Apex / Avocent Outlook EL-40DT EL80DT KVM Switch Firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513E2C46.1080809@jwsss.com> I have a lot of KVM's and will have to dig and look to see what I have of the Apex / Avocent pile. I have a bunch of Master control switches as well, but figure they are scrap value since they use huge cabling and there are much better units around thanks jim On 3/11/2013 10:55 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone have any old Apex / Avocent Outlook EL-40DT or EL80DT KVM > switches around that could check to see which firmware version they > have, and if they happen to have firmware version 2.0.3 (or newer) do > you also have the means to dump the firmware EPROM to an binary image > file? Or does anyone already have a binary image file of the 2.0.3 > firmware? I can't find that anywhere on the net. It appears that > Apex / Avocent might have only sold the firmware update as a > replacement EPROM (as part EL-80DT-FW) and didn't make the image > available for download on their website. > > If you have one of these KVM switches the firmware version can be > displayed as shown in page 52 of this manual: > > ftp://ftp.avocent.com/public/product-upgrades/Outlook/EL40-80DT/OL_DT_UG.pdf > > -Glen > > From bobvines00 at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 14:22:38 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:22:38 -0400 Subject: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS (was: Re: PDP 11/23 advice) Message-ID: > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:09:10 -0400 > From: allison > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: PDP 11/23 advice > Message-ID: <513DAD46.2010300 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 03/10/2013 10:16 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Mar 10, 2013, at 8:39 PM, allison wrote: >> >>>> Are chassis something that pop up from time to time? Are there multiple >>>> models that will take this board set? >>> If its Qbus it's likely a suitable candidate. >>> >>> Geography defines how easy it is to find stuff. Here in MA I tend to >>> trip on it >>> and I could not even give it away. In foreign countries not so much >>> L'll bet. >> I'll repeat my previous offer (made after you mentioned you had to >> take some BA123s to the dump): If you'll ship a BA11-M, -N or -S, >> or a BA23 or BA123, I'll pay shipping and a reasonable fee. Around >> here (Philadelphia), they are surprisingly scarce (either that, or >> I'm looking in ALL the wrong places). > Either that or I look in all the right dumpsters. > > I took the 123s to the dump. Reason is crating for shipment would be > expensive. > They weight more than I can lift easily. > > BA23s are amazingly heavy as are BA11s. > > For that reason when I have excess I've always made it clear shipping is > NOT > going to happen. They just don't go in a cardboard box via UPS. > > So happens I have a complete BA11 box with cards last used it was > operational. > However shipping if out of the question, can't pay me enough to deal > with that. > > With that I'll add this... > Over the years Ive gotten a lot of systems and parts because people got > into > the hobby and found they could not deal with the space or technical issues. > I've see a lot more go to the dumpster for the same reasons. Often the > collection they have is a lot of random hardware and really short of docs. > Without documentation your not going to get far and the internet is not > all the answer. Consider that before you start. > > > Allison UPS will ship fairly large items in their cardboard boxes, but it's *expensive*. I recently received some DECmates with their RX02s (which were still in their furniture/carts). Each 3x3x3 box weighed nearly 150 pounds. The previous owner gave them to me for the price of UPS packing & shipping them. He took them to his local UPS Store and had them do everything from that point. A friend of his helped him take the stuff to the UPS Store. The items were not crated like Allison mentioned above, but were severely bubble-wrapped. Some of it was double-boxed in addition to the bubble wrap and packing peanuts. Needless to say, the UPS driver was less than thrilled about the size & weight of the boxes -- fortunately I was there to help him unload his truck. His truck was the standard size brown truck, not a tractor/trailer like they subcontract for really large items. Bob From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 11 14:41:04 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:41:04 -0500 Subject: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS (was: Re: PDP 11/23 advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fb01ce1e90$5e68e660$1b3ab320$@com> UPS will do LTL loads on a trailer, including packing, if you need them to. Needless to say, the packing charges are high, but the freight is much cheaper. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6164 - Release Date: 03/11/13 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Mar 11 15:28:32 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS (was: Re: PDP 11/23 advice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1363033712.41027.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Many folks are understandably disinclined to go to all the hassle of shipping, particularly heavy stuff that is difficult to pack and transport. I've found the best way to deal with this is to arrange a freight pickup. Craters and Freighters is well-known and recommended by some folks on this group. I've had good experiences with moveit.com, formerly CTS. They send a driver to the location of the goods, load it, and take care of crating and/or palletizing. --Bill From doc at vaxen.net Mon Mar 11 15:44:17 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:44:17 -0500 Subject: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS (was: Re: PDP 11/23 advice) In-Reply-To: <1363033712.41027.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363033712.41027.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <513E4221.5090708@vaxen.net> On 3/11/13 3:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > Many folks are understandably disinclined to go to all the hassle > of shipping, particularly heavy stuff that is difficult to pack and > transport. I've found the best way to deal with this is to arrange > a freight pickup. Craters and Freighters is well-known and recommended > by some folks on this group. I've had good experiences with moveit.com, > formerly CTS. They send a driver to the location of the goods, load it, > and take care of crating and/or palletizing. If you're willing to pack the item yourself and are near a shipping hub, I've always been a fan of Forward Air. I've only used them dock to dock and they only insure items wood-crated, but they'll ship damn near anything and anything under about a half-high pallet is flat-rate. They've done me right from a bunch of different cities. Doc From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 16:17:08 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:17:08 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53E50728-5A2C-44FD-82AB-2F0378D44B30@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 11, at 12:00 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/10/2013 11:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. >>> >> On 2013 Mar 10, at 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> On 3/10/2013 10:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> .., the "NASA Rope Memory" mentioned a week or so ago went for >>>> 1200$, so what do I know. >>>> >>>> Raytheon NASA Rope Memeory Module B28 >>>> >>>> Winning bid US $1,234.88 >>>> 10 bids >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/ >>>> 111020115489?nma=true&si=L%252FKVS6tRa6NElBM%252FimfqSWLCRxk% >>>> 253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1755wt_0 >>>> >>> You know that was actually an Apollo guidance computer rope >>> memory module right ? I was surprised it only went for $1,200. If >>> someone could find out exactly what it was from I bet you could >>> times by ten what it sold for at least. >> >> Yes, I realise that was the claim, although I haven't seen it >> confirmed. I'm not saying they're wrong, it should be traceable >> given the id stamped on it. >> >> Nonetheless, the selling price kind of surprised me for what is a >> fairly undistinguished module (and I'm well aware of what core >> rope is, however not many people are). Hypothetically speaking, >> were a keypad/display module for the AGC ever to show up on ebay, >> it would be another matter - that I would expect to go for big bucks. >> >> It's just interesting - is all Apollo stuff going this way these >> days, or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia >> receptors (computers AND Apollo) for a certain set of people (not >> trying to be derisive, I could be in that set). > Do you have another reasonable explanation what it might have > been ? That is clearly a AGC module to me. There were other missile/aerospace/military guidance/embedded computers being made at that time that needed ROM, so without other info it was not clear it was AGC. It also relies on knowing that Raytheon didn't use the same module design for some other model or contract (which I believe is true, but you have to know it). I was trying to sort out the differences in the Block 1 physical design and the Block 2 design though, and it's difficult when you have no idea how accurate the presentation on various web pages is. > It may not have ever flown to the moon but, there is no mistaking > it. Another one google showed me had B21. B28 was probably what > program it contained. It would be very cool to get the code off > these. It could have been stupid test routines or maybe it was some > sort of suicide protocol. Yes, fun exercise. I've done this for the core-rope memory for a Wang calculator, although the Wang rope had the drivers and sense amps as one module with the rope, so it was just TTL level interfacing and I just had to deal with timing issues. (The objective was to get the microcode out to use in a simulation of the calc.) > I think a case could be made that these are government property and > really were never meant to be sold. If NASA decided they wanted > them back I imagine they could be taken back. So far they aren't up > to Apollo computing artifacts yet. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 16:41:33 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:41:33 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 11, at 5:59 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 11/03/13 2:41 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. >>> >> >> ... is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, >> or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors > > They're not making it any more. > > (They're not making moon trips any more either.) Thanks, that's really informative and helpful. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 11 16:46:39 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:46:39 -0600 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <513E50BF.8090609@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/11/2013 3:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 11, at 5:59 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 11/03/13 2:41 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. >>>> >>> >>> ... is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, >>> or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors >> >> They're not making it any more. >> >> (They're not making moon trips any more either.) > > Thanks, that's really informative and helpful. > > They also have stopped giving out free Moon Rocks too. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 11 17:08:56 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> > >> ... is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, > >> or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors > > They're not making it any more. > > (They're not making moon trips any more either.) > Thanks, that's really informative and helpful. In addition to the pieces being offered up, there are additional components, some of which are not conveniently available, needed for making moon trips. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 11 17:29:38 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> > They're not making it any more. > (They're not making moon trips any more either.) It would probably be cheaper to just go there and film it on location than to fake it on a Hollywood level sound stage. Was that the REAL reason for the development of CGI? (to save money on guvmint fake films) Besides, why a SOUND stage? On the moon, nobody can hear you laugh. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 19:16:13 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:16:13 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 11, at 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> They're not making it any more. >> (They're not making moon trips any more either.) > > It would probably be cheaper to just go there and film it on > location than to fake it on a Hollywood level sound stage. > Was that the REAL reason for the development of CGI? > (to save money on guvmint fake films) > > Besides, why a SOUND stage? On the moon, nobody can hear you laugh. Seeing as how we're straying into Apollo hoax territory, while investigating this thread I ran across this: http://www.aulis.com/pascal.htm Following on Margaret Atwoods questioning of the Apollo missions on the basis they didn't have adequate computers, this time some guy has done an 'analysis' (term used verrrry loosely) of the AGC, based on available documents, and declares that the AGC could never have worked. The guy can make a nice web article with graphics and seems to have a rudimentary knowledge of electronics (from web page: "[author] is a computer engineer specialising in real-time systems"). He can identify diode and transistor symbols and seems to know how these components are 'supposed' to work, but all his points I examined display a basic misunderstanding of electronics and the whole thing is utterly incompetent. If you actually do have an understanding of electronics you can read the article for a good laugh. (Oh, what the hell. Better expressed in the colloquial: Despite his supposed technical background, the guy is a moron who doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.) Do a little web surfing/research about Apollo and inevitably one ends up at yet another Apollo-moon-landing-hoax-conspiracy site. And of course these sites present themselves as being in the spirit of "freethinking", "thinking differently", "questioning the status quo", or whatever. Which are good things - when they are applied with some competence and aren't just an expression of arrogance and ignorance. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 11 19:36:35 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:36:35 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513E7893.9060500@jwsss.com> On 3/11/2013 5:16 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 11, at 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> They're not making it any more. >>> (They're not making moon trips any more either.) >> >> It would probably be cheaper to just go there and film it on >> location than to fake it on a Hollywood level sound stage. >> Was that the REAL reason for the development of CGI? >> (to save money on guvmint fake films) >> >> Besides, why a SOUND stage? On the moon, nobody can hear you laugh. > > > Seeing as how we're straying into Apollo hoax territory, while > investigating this thread I ran across this: > http://www.aulis.com/pascal.htm > > Following on Margaret Atwoods questioning of the Apollo missions on > the basis they didn't have adequate computers, this time some guy has > done an 'analysis' (term used verrrry loosely) of the AGC, based on > available documents, and declares that the AGC could never have worked. > > The guy can make a nice web article with graphics and seems to have a > rudimentary knowledge of electronics (from web page: "[author] is a > computer engineer specialising in real-time systems"). He can identify > diode and transistor symbols and seems to know how these components > are 'supposed' to work, but all his points I examined display a basic > misunderstanding of electronics and the whole thing is utterly > incompetent. If you actually do have an understanding of electronics > you can read the article for a good laugh. > > (Oh, what the hell. Better expressed in the colloquial: Despite his > supposed technical background, the guy is a moron who doesn't have a > clue what he is talking about.) > > Do a little web surfing/research about Apollo and inevitably one ends > up at yet another Apollo-moon-landing-hoax-conspiracy site. And of > course these sites present themselves as being in the spirit of > "freethinking", "thinking differently", "questioning the status quo", > or whatever. > > Which are good things - when they are applied with some competence and > aren't just an expression of arrogance and ignorance. > > You do have to love this crap. Send him to Colorado for whether it could have worked. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/technology/circuits/10apol.html?_r=0 http://agcreplica.outel.org/ certainly proves the design did work though morons would still argue that it could not have been fit in the capsule. another interesting replica site: http://users.on.net/~pcschmidt/AGC/AGCRep.html or the simulator http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ doesn't refute the idiots but as long as we are mentioning such. I have looked into getting a DSKY made up with USB but got side tracked by real work. jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 11 19:39:02 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:39:02 -0700 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I thinking, we've just about all seen someone use some plastic wrap to read a stuborn creadit card. First, what is the principle behind making it work? Is it possible that something similar can be used while trying to recover old floppies that may have had some surface damage? Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 11 19:55:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:55:35 -0400 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513E7D07.3010108@neurotica.com> On 03/11/2013 08:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I thinking, we've just about all seen someone use some plastic wrap > to read a stuborn creadit card. > First, what is the principle behind making it work? > Is it possible that something similar can be used while trying > to recover old floppies that may have had some surface damage? I believe the plastic wrap trick is to give the rubber roller in the reader a better grip on the card, if the card is too slippery to make it turn. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Mar 11 20:04:52 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: think of buying Altair 8800 remake Message-ID: <1363050292.56132.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am think of buying an Altair 8800 remake ? --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0??50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 20:08:37 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:08:37 -0700 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <2E17F20E-4CD1-43F0-B362-05080840A16F@cs.ubc.ca> I thought the issue there was just to get greater friction between the card and the roller wheel in the reader so the wheel wouldn't slip on the card. I didn't think it was a magnetics issue. I have an IBM reader/writer that I RE'd and hacked to the point that I could read the data off the mag stripe. The roller wheel seems to be used for clocking/speed sensing for writing. I'm assuming the wheel is present in a reader-only, although you would think reading could be done self-clocking off the mag stripe encoding and could be accomplished without the wheel. On 2013 Mar 11, at 5:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I thinking, we've just about all seen someone use some plastic wrap > to read a stuborn creadit card. > First, what is the principle behind making it work? > Is it possible that something similar can be used while trying > to recover old floppies that may have had some surface damage? > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 20:27:59 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:27:59 -0700 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: <513E7D07.3010108@neurotica.com> References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7D07.3010108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513E849F.8040103@sydex.com> On 03/11/2013 05:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I believe the plastic wrap trick is to give the rubber roller in the > reader a better grip on the card, if the card is too slippery to make it > turn. Most of what I've read seems to say that it lowers the signal level a bit and reduces some extraneous noise in the signal: http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/lick-plastic-bag-credit-card-secrets-1273.php But the bit density on a credit card is very low in comparison to a floppy disk. I imagine that increasing the head-media separation to the thickness of a bit of cling wrap would most likely make the disk harder to read. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 11 20:47:40 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:47:40 -0400 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513E50BF.8090609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <513E50BF.8090609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <513E893C.5010601@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/03/13 5:46 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/11/2013 3:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2013 Mar 11, at 5:59 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 11/03/13 2:41 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> On 2013 Mar 10, at 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> I'm kinda surprised that didn't go for more. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ... is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, >>>> or is it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors >>> >>> They're not making it any more. >>> >>> (They're not making moon trips any more either.) >> >> Thanks, that's really informative and helpful. >> >> > > They also have stopped giving out free Moon Rocks too. > Ben. No, that's probably still happening. --T From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 11 20:55:37 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:55:37 -0700 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: <513E849F.8040103@sydex.com> References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7D07.3010108@neurotica.com> <513E849F.8040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 11, at 6:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/11/2013 05:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I believe the plastic wrap trick is to give the rubber roller >> in the >> reader a better grip on the card, if the card is too slippery to >> make it >> turn. > > Most of what I've read seems to say that it lowers the signal level > a bit and reduces some extraneous noise in the signal: > > http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/lick-plastic-bag-credit- > card-secrets-1273.php Well, that's interesting. The roller is not an issue according to them. Despite my own assumption about the roller being the problem, I shouldn't have said one would think it could be done self-clocking without a roller - I know it can be done self-clocking without a roller: I looked back at my docs for the reader project and see I picked the data & clk outputs off the read amps and interpreted them with an assembly program - no roller sensing involved. > But the bit density on a credit card is very low in comparison to a > floppy disk. I imagine that increasing the head-media separation > to the thickness of a bit of cling wrap would most likely make the > disk harder to read. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 11 20:57:41 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513E893C.5010601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <513E50BF.8090609@jetnet.ab.ca> <513E893C.5010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130311185558.A41282@shell.lmi.net> > >>> They're not making it any more. > >>> (They're not making moon trips any more either.) > >> Thanks, that's really informative and helpful. > > They also have stopped giving out free Moon Rocks too. On Mon, 11 Mar 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > No, that's probably still happening. Shipping is the problem. They're still readily available for local pickup. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 11 21:03:56 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:03:56 -0400 Subject: CP/M load question In-Reply-To: <00af01ce1e82$86375cc0$92a61640$@lazzerini@email.it> References: <00af01ce1e82$86375cc0$92a61640$@lazzerini@email.it> Message-ID: <513E8D0C.9000601@verizon.net> On 03/11/2013 02:01 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi at all, I'm sorry I'm not very prepared and my English is basic. > > I have a mainboard with CPU Z80 derived from the famous Ferguson Big Board 1 > (that i have working fine). It has a CPU Z80A running at 4MHz, 64KByte DRAM, > FDC 1797 with external data separator FDC9228BT. It equipped with its own > BIOS that is loaded into memory at address F800H but it not has the > operating system CP/M. > > > > If instead of his eprom i insert the firmware coming from Ferguson Bigboard > 1 (which is loaded into memory at address F000H) that has FDC 1771 it run > properly loading the operating system CP/M 2.2. I looked in my experience > and modified the CP/M loader and CBIOS to point at the entry points of the > bios at F800H, so the loader loads into memory correctly ALL the CCP, the > BDOS and CBIOS, but it not complete the boot CP/M with the prompt (the error > that comes to me is: track 2 sector 1 not found. it is an area where > normally there is no CP/M code and that it is regularly read with a simple > read command available from the firmware). This is difficult as the problem is clear that you have a FDC related hardware issue. The error occurs when CP/M starts up and attempts to "log the disk in" or generate a map of the directory. Its failing to read a valid directory likely due to the differences between 1771 and 1797 or possibly a bad sector on the media. Note the directory must be cleared (initialized) to all 0xE5. I cannot say what emulator would work best for you. I debug problems like this using a resident monitor rom and instrumented code (lots of messages). Allison > > > I ASK FOR: Anybody has any idea? Is there a Z80 emulator where I can load > the BIOS and i can try to load the operating system CP/M to see what type of > problem? > > > > Regards > > Enri > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 11 21:05:45 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:05:45 -0400 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7D07.3010108@neurotica.com> <513E849F.8040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <513E8D79.1030406@neurotica.com> On 03/11/2013 09:55 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> I believe the plastic wrap trick is to give the rubber roller in the >>> reader a better grip on the card, if the card is too slippery to make it >>> turn. >> >> Most of what I've read seems to say that it lowers the signal level a >> bit and reduces some extraneous noise in the signal: >> >> http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/lick-plastic-bag-credit-card-secrets-1273.php >> > > Well, that's interesting. The roller is not an issue according to them. > > Despite my own assumption about the roller being the problem, I > shouldn't have said one would think it could be done self-clocking > without a roller - I know it can be done self-clocking without a roller: > I looked back at my docs for the reader project and see I picked the > data & clk outputs off the read amps and interpreted them with an > assembly program - no roller sensing involved. Just a PLL...doing self-clocking in that manner is pretty easy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 11 23:25:46 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 05:25:46 +0100 Subject: USB to Omnibus interface news Message-ID: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> Hello everybody, a few days ago I introduced my USB to Omnibus adapter module. I'd like give you an update. As you might have seen on pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/omnibus_usb the board I made first was only half height and used three CoolRunner II CPLDs. I made a slight redesign of the board: - Full size Omnibus board. One could even mount DEC handles if he wanted to. - CPLD is now one big XC9572XL-TQ100. - Added working DIP switches, TX and RX device code are freely selectable. The board still uses the 7438 as bus drivers. And YES - I still use the "wrong" drivers. As Plessey did on their RK05 controller... And that controller is said to be more reliable than the original RK8E. So 7438 cannot be the worst choice. So please no more discussion about that. I'm very sorry that I just don't have a really loaded PDP8/e at hand to test the board. But I tried my best and loaded the test system with some hardware which was just at hand: - Front panel - Two backplanes in system - CPU + EAE - M837 memory extension and time share - KL8J terminal at 03/04 and 9600 baud - 24K core memory (3x8) - RK8E - TD8E - MI8-EA bootstrap diode board - Bus loads - OMNI-USB :-) That makes 24 boards in the system. Without the core memory boards which don't use anything than ground it's still 21. There are 13 slots left. The sytem is running OS/8 while I'm writing this. It just works. Booting works, transferring data over USB works, TD8E worked (until the TU56's PSU broke down a few minutes ago :-), RK8E works, terminal works. Looks good. Oh, kermit runs so fast...! I have decided to make a 25 piece batch of the new board. A prototype without gold fingers (it will have gold fingers in the end) can also be seen in my new webshop: http://shop.hachti.de Price is EUR 105 without any tax and any shipping. Shop initially displays EUR 125 incl. German VAT. Shipping of the boards will be in the beginning of April. April 2nd seems to be a bit too optimistic due to PCB manufacturing time. But I'm quite condident that it will be in the first week of April. You can already order/pay now. I very much appreciate that because it helps me to pay the boards and parts. The other effect is that I'd get a real resonance. Currently a handful of people told me that they want 15 boards. Some of them already ordered (big THANK YOU!), some are very quiet. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From g-wright at att.net Mon Mar 11 23:38:18 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Putr and tu58 problems Message-ID: <1363063098.12292.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm trying to read some tu58 tapes with PUTR. mount dd0: com1:9600 /drive:0 It finds the drive and just cycles the tape back and forth with out any errors, forever. . If I remove the tape, it errors on device not ready. Watching the LEDs on my Serial cable break_out there is activity on both line 2 then 3 as the tape cycles back and forth. I have used the same drive on a PDP11 to read the directory on some of the tapes with out any problems. what am I doing wrong here. - Jerry From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Mar 11 23:56:11 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 04:56:11 +0000 Subject: Putr and tu58 problems In-Reply-To: <1363063098.12292.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D77DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/11/13 9:38 PM, "Jerry Wright" wrote: >I'm trying to read some tu58 tapes with PUTR. > > mount dd0: com1:9600 /drive:0 > >It finds the drive and just cycles the tape back and forth >with out any errors, forever. . If I remove the tape, it errors on device >not ready. Watching the LEDs on my Serial cable break_out >there is activity on both line 2 then 3 as the tape cycles back and forth. > >I have used the same drive on a PDP11 to read the directory on >some of the tapes with out any problems. > >what am I doing wrong here. > > >- Jerry > > Just a thought: you may need to tell PUTR the format of the tape, e.g., /RT11. I've usually seen PUTR just fail with "WTF?" when I don't tell it the format of an image, but with a real tape, it may behave differently. -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 12 00:07:47 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:07:47 -0600 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <513EB823.7000909@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Yes, I realise that was the claim, although I haven't seen it > confirmed. I'm not saying they're wrong, it should be traceable given > the id stamped on it. Sure, NASA or Raytheon actually kept the records, and if they could actually find them. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 00:24:34 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 01:24:34 -0400 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Nonetheless, the selling price kind of surprised me for what is a fairly > undistinguished module (and I'm well aware of what core rope is, however not > many people are). Hypothetically speaking, were a keypad/display module for > the AGC ever to show up on ebay, it would be another matter - that I would > expect to go for big bucks. > > It's just interesting - is all Apollo stuff going this way these days, or is > it just AGC stuff triggering multiple nostalgia receptors (computers AND > Apollo) for a certain set of people (not trying to be derisive, I could be > in that set). The space junk collectors tend to be pretty smart, and most of them realize that spacecraft parts tend to be more common than most people think (while not made in large quantities, it tends to survive at a very high proportion compared to normal junk due to its "coolness"), and that unless there is some ironclad documentation showing that it was flown, pieces are just going to be part of the big pile that stayed on the ground (it is a case of "one out of many", going through all the screening and testing procedures). Without any supporting documentation, this module's ending price seems about right. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 12 00:29:18 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:29:18 -0600 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513EBD2E.9010706@brouhaha.com> mc68010 wrote: > I think a case could be made that these are government property I don't think a case can be made for that without digging up actual records. At this point the government would need to prove that it is their property. > and really were never meant to be sold. Irrelevant. The government buys billions of dollars of stuff every year that is "never meant to be sold", and eventually it all gets sold, unless it's classified, in which case it is declassified then sold or scrapped. (Sometimes after declassification there's no value other than as recyclable materials.) Even if it could be shown that they didn't explicitly intend to sell it, they would also have to show that it wasn't abandoned, since abandoning property with no demonstrable intent to recover it forfeits ownership. > If NASA decided they wanted them back I imagine they could be taken back. Not likely. NASA surplused by public auction an incredible amount of stuff from the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs. There's no reason to believe that this wasn't legitimately surplused. If this particular artifact was a test article or otherwise intended for purposes other than being a flight article, then there's definitely no reason it wouldn't have been sold. The probability that this particular artifact actually flew is so vanishingly small that it can be completely discounted. The probability that it was flight-ready is small but nontrivial. Most likely it was a test article intended for ground use only. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 00:45:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for a Sanyo MBC-775 Message-ID: <1363067115.98018.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Send me an e-mail please. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 12 00:46:30 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:46:30 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513EB823.7000909@brouhaha.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513EB823.7000909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <17150791-D3C5-4DAD-8868-2B06DDB31E61@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 11, at 10:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> Yes, I realise that was the claim, although I haven't seen it >> confirmed. I'm not saying they're wrong, it should be traceable >> given the id stamped on it. > > Sure, NASA or Raytheon actually kept the records, and if they could > actually find them. Due to the interest in the AGC over the past decade, I believe a lot of those records have been found, if it couldn't be matched by part number to an existing AGC. It was said in one ref to be from a Block 1 model though, which might make it more difficult to affirm. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Mar 12 01:37:43 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:37:43 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice Message-ID: <20130312063743.153460@gmx.net> Ian Finder wrote: > (...) The box appears to contain a complete 11/23 boardset! > I've wanted a PDP 11 for some time, so needless to say, it would be great > to make an actual PDP 11/23 out of the boards. Ooh, how things happen. Opposite problem here - I went to collect a promised 11/23 last weekend that was surplus to a university collection, what I got was a shell with power inlet, power supply, fans and backplane, but not a single board left within. This was to become my first pdp ever, so I'd also like to complete it and have it running... (Shipping the case would have been a problem anyway as I'm located in Germany). > I'd also need a disk at some point, but for now that's out of scope. Included in my haul were three RL01 and one RL02, the last one even including a pack. One of the '01s seems to be quite early, its white indicator/ID plug bears just the ID "0" in small type while the others have their IDs (2x "0", 1x"1") in large type and the word "READY" below, and it doesn't have the cover release access port on the right, so I don't even know whether there is a pack in that one too yet. Needless to say, an even larger problem to ship. (Shameless plug: I didn't get any cabling for the RLxx drives, just one terminator was included, so I'm in the market for some excess cables, perhaps a second term if I want to make them into two chains sometime, and "2" and "3" ID plugs if I want to make them into one long chain. Everything preferably from within continental Europe for ease of handling.) So long, Arno From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Mar 12 01:43:41 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:43:41 +0100 Subject: Spare Keys for DECwriter III? Message-ID: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> Also included in my recent haul of DECquipment was a DECwriter III printing terminal. This is believed to be functional, but missing the "N" key and the outermost key in the low left (adjacent to CTRL and SHIFT, is that "ALT"? "NO SCL"?). Just asking if anybody got those as spares from an old junker and might be persuaded to part with them. TIA, yours sincerely, Arno From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Mar 11 13:01:57 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:01:57 +0100 Subject: CP/M load question Message-ID: <00af01ce1e82$86375cc0$92a61640$@lazzerini@email.it> Hi at all, I'm sorry I'm not very prepared and my English is basic. I have a mainboard with CPU Z80 derived from the famous Ferguson Big Board 1 (that i have working fine). It has a CPU Z80A running at 4MHz, 64KByte DRAM, FDC 1797 with external data separator FDC9228BT. It equipped with its own BIOS that is loaded into memory at address F800H but it not has the operating system CP/M. If instead of his eprom i insert the firmware coming from Ferguson Bigboard 1 (which is loaded into memory at address F000H) that has FDC 1771 it run properly loading the operating system CP/M 2.2. I looked in my experience and modified the CP/M loader and CBIOS to point at the entry points of the bios at F800H, so the loader loads into memory correctly ALL the CCP, the BDOS and CBIOS, but it not complete the boot CP/M with the prompt (the error that comes to me is: track 2 sector 1 not found. it is an area where normally there is no CP/M code and that it is regularly read with a simple read command available from the firmware). I ASK FOR: Anybody has any idea? Is there a Z80 emulator where I can load the BIOS and i can try to load the operating system CP/M to see what type of problem? Regards Enri From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Mar 11 13:37:18 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:37:18 +0100 Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC Message-ID: <00b701ce1e87$75e715e0$61b541a0$@lazzerini@email.it> Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not have a FDC on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy disk it seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC board outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to try to connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? Regards Enrico From doug at doughq.com Mon Mar 11 16:30:24 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:30:24 +1100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 200 memory In-Reply-To: <51369A5D.1000808@verizon.net> References: <190B6252D8DF4C978121E935BBEEE9C5@vl420mt> <51369A5D.1000808@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks for that Alison. Doug > I did it in my M100, used a 62256 and external decode on a piggyback board. > There was enough room if sockets were not used. It used the open sockets > for the IOand mechanical support. Its a fairly simple thing to do. > > I believe someone else did it and documented theirs on the Club100 site. > > I later modded mine for 64K ram and phantom rom. The default is the M100 > rom, > the alternate loads CP/M into ram and boots it. disk is a old 16meg CF > tucked in > there. This is not so trivial as the drivers for the keyboard and display > are > a PITA. Initial work was done using the serial port as a console and > running > debug code for the keyboard and display. > > > Allison > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Mar 11 18:27:01 2013 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:27:01 -0400 Subject: PDP11/83 power up results - Thanks to members of cctalk who helped References: <0364880C3C934C59BBDE2A84F1E1055E@OptiplexGX620> <513D845B.6080507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51F225B373ED485E8EE22D8F905B66BD@OptiplexGX620> Not too far away is right.. Do not spend alot of time at home these days, but when I do there usually is little time for my stuff. Maybe we could meet at some point. Been to your website a few times and have seen your posts periodically. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 3:14 AM Subject: Re: PDP11/83 power up results - Thanks to members of cctalk who helped > On 03/10/2013 08:30 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: >> To all who provided kind assistance and advice. >> >> Finally had the time to properly power up some 11/83 Qbus >> cards. A KDJ-11B and 2 MSV1J's in a BA213 chassis, formerly >> a DECserver 550. The following is the power messages. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- >> Testing in progress - Please wait >> Memory Size is 4088 K Bytes >> 9 Step memory test >> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >> Starting automatic boot >> >> >> Trying MU0 >> >> Message 14 >> Non existent controller, address 17774500 >> >> Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. >> Type a command then press the RETURN key: LIST >> >> Device Unit >> name numbers Source Device type >> >> DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn >> DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 >> DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 >> DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 >> DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 >> DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 >> MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 >> MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 >> XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET >> NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 >> NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E >> NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F >> >> Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. >> Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP >> >> >> 18.000 MHz >> CPU Options: FPA >> >> Memory Map >> Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus >> Address address K Bytes address type type >> >> 00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772100 ECC PMI >> 10000000 - 17757776 2040 17772104 ECC PMI >> >> Press the RETURN key when ready to continue >> >> I/O page Map >> Starting Ending >> Address address >> >> 17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM >> 17772100 Memory CSR >> 17772104 Memory CSR >> 17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's >> 17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's >> 17772516 MMR3 >> 17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM >> 17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR >> 17777546 Clock CSR >> 17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU >> 17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2 >> 17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's >> 17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss >> 17777766 CPU Error >> 17777772 PIRQ >> 17777776 PSW >> >> Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. >> Type a command then press the RETURN key: >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Continuing on to the next step is providing some storage >> media to hold RSX11M. I have a CMD SCSI controller to start >> with. I suppose by the time I finish SimH will look to be the easier >> route, but old hardware has a bit of a class to it. > > Great work!! > >> Dan Snyder >> Butler, PA USA > > "Hey!" from down Route 28! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 12 02:19:57 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 00:19:57 -0700 Subject: Using plastic wrap on credit cards In-Reply-To: <513E8D79.1030406@neurotica.com> References: , <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com>, <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca>, <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au>, , <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net>, <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7D07.3010108@neurotica.com> <513E849F.8040103@sydex.com> <513E8D79.1030406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513ED71D.10209@sydex.com> On 03/11/2013 07:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Despite my own assumption about the roller being the problem, I >> shouldn't have said one would think it could be done self-clocking >> without a roller - I know it can be done self-clocking without a roller: >> I looked back at my docs for the reader project and see I picked the >> data & clk outputs off the read amps and interpreted them with an >> assembly program - no roller sensing involved. > > Just a PLL...doing self-clocking in that manner is pretty easy. I believe that magnetic stripe uses BMC (F-2F) modulation, so it's self-clocking anyway. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 02:35:02 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 00:35:02 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513EBD2E.9010706@brouhaha.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> <513EBD2E.9010706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> On 3/11/2013 10:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > mc68010 wrote: >> I think a case could be made that these are government property > > I don't think a case can be made for that without digging up actual > records. At this point the government would need to prove that it is > their property. > > It does sort of say NASA on it. It is actually right on it. > Irrelevant. The government buys billions of dollars of stuff every > year that is "never meant to be sold", and eventually it all gets > sold, unless it's classified, in which case it is declassified then > sold or scrapped. (Sometimes after declassification there's no value > other than as recyclable materials.) I have more than one friend with stuff they shouldn't have. Stuff they bought at auction. It is more bureaucratic error. Classified and some even up to the nuclear level. It slips through all the time. > > Even if it could be shown that they didn't explicitly intend to sell > it, they would also have to show that it wasn't abandoned, since > abandoning property with no demonstrable intent to recover it forfeits > ownership. > > >> If NASA decided they wanted them back I imagine they could be taken >> back. > > Not likely. NASA surplused by public auction an incredible amount of > stuff from the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs. There's no > reason to believe that this wasn't legitimately surplused. That was by mistake. They can have it all back. Anytime they decide to. If they even decide to care. They rush in with FBI agents and take back moonrocks all the time. Seriously. Every rock from the moon was just 'loaned' to whoever was allowed to hold it. What is really amazing is how sloppy the bookkeeping during the Apollo program was. They were in such a hurry they just didn't care. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 02:46:15 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 00:46:15 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC In-Reply-To: <513ed92d.c8862b0a.3d64.1d64SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <513ed92d.c8862b0a.3d64.1d64SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <513EDD47.7030504@gmail.com> On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not have a FDC > on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy disk it > seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC board > outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to try to > connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? > Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box of 8" 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives and a power supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I doubt it. The cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on the mainboard. From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 12 03:08:28 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 04:08:28 -0400 Subject: Spare Keys for DECwriter III? In-Reply-To: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> References: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20130312080828.GA1354@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:43:41AM +0100, Arno Kletzander wrote: >Also included in my recent haul of DECquipment was a DECwriter III printing >terminal. This is believed to be functional, but missing the "N" key and the >outermost key in the low left (adjacent to CTRL and SHIFT, is that "ALT"? "NO >SCL"?). Just asking if anybody got those as spares from an old junker and >might be persuaded to part with them. Alt?! Bite your tongue!!! :-) It's "VIEW". It moves the printhead out of the way (for when auto-view is disabled) so you can see what you just typed. Sorry, I don't have spares. John Wilson D Bit From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Mar 12 07:36:05 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:36:05 -0500 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513E7893.9060500@jwsss.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7893.9060500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2013, at 7:36 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ See also http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page We took the virtual AGC and gave it a virtual spacecraft. I can tell you that colossus and luminary worked firsthand, because I have personally ran it for its original purpose. We use NASA's original and unmodified checklists and procedures where they are available. We even send telemetry in the original format, so in theory you could hook this up to the old MCC and drive the displays. Most of our problems are document archaeology and reverse-engineering to fill holes created by missing or lost documents. Almost none of the mission control documentation was kept, we haven't found any of the ground software, and the Saturn flight software seems to have been lost. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 07:58:25 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:58:25 -0400 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> <513EBD2E.9010706@brouhaha.com> <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I have more than one friend with stuff they shouldn't have. Stuff they > bought at auction. It is more bureaucratic error. Classified and some even > up to the nuclear level. It slips through all the time. I bet your friends appreciate you saying this on a public list. > That was by mistake. They can have it all back. Anytime they decide to. If > they even decide to care. They rush in with FBI agents and take back > moonrocks all the time. Seriously. Every rock from the moon was just > 'loaned' to whoever was allowed to hold it. There is *some* truth to this, although for 45 year old space junk, I doubt anyone in the government would care. The government can retroactively change classification and demil codes on pretty much anything - certainly the crypto collectors have this issue, and get toys taken away from them. Scrappers also see this more and more, so now most are documenting their scrapping process by snapping a bunch of photos of stuff they stripped, if it looks sensitive. However, I would think the 99plus percent of Apollo junk would not fit in this category. It would be interesting to see at what level the AGC was classified. It might qualify for that 1minus percent. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 08:05:31 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:05:31 -0400 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7893.9060500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Most of our problems are document archaeology and reverse-engineering to fill holes created by missing or lost documents. Almost none of the mission control documentation was kept, we haven't found any of the ground software, and the Saturn flight software seems to have been lost. Who are "we"? I have heard there is a group trying to save and archive NASA technical documentation, but I know little of them. I have a manual for one of the missile tracking ships (T-AGM-6, I think) used for some of the manned missions that probably needs to be placed in some sort of good digital archive. -- Will From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Mar 12 08:18:40 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:18:40 -0500 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7893.9060500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <3437E001-68A7-426C-A6F7-FCAF781C8F5F@lunar-tokyo.net> On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:05 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Who are "we"? I have heard there is a group trying to save and archive > NASA technical documentation, but I know little of them. I don't know of any organized document-saving organization, but a lot of stuff goes through NARA. The "we" I refer to is the group working on NASSP. We don't have any kind of public document repository or anything like that, we just collect what we need to build the simulator. > I have a manual for one of the missile tracking ships (T-AGM-6, I > think) used for some of the manned missions that probably needs to be > placed in some sort of good digital archive. That does sound like something that should be saved, but I have no idea how you would go about doing it. From michael at almegacy.com Tue Mar 12 08:24:36 2013 From: michael at almegacy.com (MICHAEL RANDALL) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:24:36 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Proof of Sale, HP PA 7100LC or Motorola 88110 Sold before August 16, 1994 Message-ID: <8a573846f588ba355195b09b005ce8e0@mail.gmail.com> I will pay up to $1,000 for original documentation that shows proof of purchase of a computer system containing either a Hewlett Packard PA 7100LC microprocessor or a Motorola 88110 microprocessor that was sold in the United States of America before August 16, 1994. This applies to computer systems or to the microprocessors (PA 7100LC or Motorola 881100). Proof of sale is an original sales receipt or other original paperwork that proves that the system was purchased in the USA before 8/16/94. If you still have the original system or microprocessor, I would also be interested in purchasing it for fair market value. Known systems that used the microprocessors of interest in the timeframe of interest are listed below: Motorola 88110 Microprocessor: ? Motorola MVME197DP or MVME197SP single board computers ? Motorola 900, 900R workstations ? Harris Real Time Unix Servers: Harris Night Hawk 5000 series (5800) ? Data General AViiON AV 9500, AV8500, AV550, AV500 ? Omron Luna88K Hewlett Packard PA 7100LC processor ? 9000 E-class business servers (Models E25, E35, E45, E55) ? 9000 Series 700 Models 712/60 and 712/80i ? 9000 Models 715/64, 715/100, 725/100 ? 9000 Model 743 or model 748i ? HP 3000 Series 9X8 servers such as HP 3000 Series 918 LX, HP 3000 Series 918 RX ? HP 3000 Series 928LX ? HP 3000 Series 928RX ? HP 3000 Series 968LX ? HP 3000 Series 968RX ? HP 3000 Series 978LX ? HP 3000 Series 978RX From robin at hx-20.com Tue Mar 12 11:29:19 2013 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:29:19 -0000 Subject: Flextra BR-3020 or BR-3225 25/50MB Floppy Drive Message-ID: Does anyone have a Brier Technology BR-3020 or BR-3225 high capacity floppy drive I could borrow please? Thanks Robin From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 12 11:29:27 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:29:27 -0500 Subject: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513F57E7.8080907@pico-systems.com> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:09:10 -0400 >> From: Bob Vines >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: PDP 11/23 advice >> Message-ID: <513DAD46.2010300 at verizon.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> > > > UPS will ship fairly large items in their cardboard boxes, but it's > *expensive*. I recently received some DECmates with their RX02s > (which were still in their furniture/carts). Each 3x3x3 box weighed > nearly 150 pounds. > I've had bad experiences shipping heavy stuff with UPS. I've had great luck with FedEx, and FedEx ground is quite reasonable. The UPS store is not operated by by UPS, and their insurance is VERY expensive, probably 4 times more than FedEx. UPS admits the way they unload their semis is to push everything out onto the ground. Also, the UPS store charges $16 to 25 for each box, at FedEx, they are more like $5. Jon From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 12:02:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You can obtain large cartons from Walmart on the overnight shift. Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. You can get soft (and hard) foam slabs from the dumpsters behind large craft stores (Michaels), Pier 1 Imports, Staples (for those that still have conventional dumpsters). Sometimes cardboard is a better choice for cushioning material, use your judgment, and it adds weight. Avoid UPS. Fedex and USPS are much cheaper. But if you use Fedex you need to consider *ALL* the excessive G-forces your items will be subject to. For heavy and/or bulky items I wrap wrap wrap the box with cheapo packing tape, dollar store or Wally World, 1$ a roll. It just makes much more sense then spending 2.50-3.50$ a roll. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 12:04:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC Message-ID: <1363107893.85734.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 11:37 AM PDT Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not have a FDC >on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy disk it >seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC board >outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to try to >connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? > >Regards > >Enrico I have a 16/8. I could take some pictures of the innards later in the week. Mine is different (obviously) - has 1 5 1/4" floppy drive, and a hard disk. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 12 12:19:04 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 12 12:32:27 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:32:27 -0700 Subject: Flextra BR-3020 or BR-3225 25/50MB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513F66AB.4000807@sydex.com> On 03/12/2013 09:29 AM, Robin England wrote: > Does anyone have a Brier Technology BR-3020 or BR-3225 high capacity floppy drive I could borrow please? Wouldn't an Insite I325VM work just as well if reading is your object? I suspect that there are far more of them than the Brier units. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 12:35:31 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Mouse wrote: >> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. > > "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean > here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. > I think it falls under the concept of, "complete failure as a human being". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 12:48:16 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:48:16 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 17:19, Mouse wrote: >> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. > > "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean > here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. It's hate-speech. Short for "homosexual" and used as a generic insult. His excuse being that his magic sky-pixie tells him to hate gay people, making both him and his religion loathsome. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 12 12:52:10 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:52:10 -0700 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <3437E001-68A7-426C-A6F7-FCAF781C8F5F@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513DD524.208@telegraphics.com.au> <20130311150530.Q41282@shell.lmi.net> <20130311152110.I41282@shell.lmi.net> <410F0D89-AB57-4AB3-BF0F-29B6BF9E4494@cs.ubc.ca> <513E7893.9060500@jwsss.com> <3437E001-68A7-426C-A6F7-FCAF781C8F5F@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <513F6B4A.5070902@jwsss.com> On 3/12/2013 6:18 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:05 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Who are "we"? I have heard there is a group trying to save and archive >> NASA technical documentation, but I know little of them. > I don't know of any organized document-saving organization, but a lot of stuff goes through NARA. The "we" I refer to is the group working on NASSP. We don't have any kind of public document repository or anything like that, we just collect what we need to build the simulator. > >> I have a manual for one of the missile tracking ships (T-AGM-6, I >> think) used for some of the manned missions that probably needs to be >> placed in some sort of good digital archive. > That does sound like something that should be saved, but I have no idea how you would go about doing it. > > > Same here,. I bought a tracking station radar manual for the Mercury radars. They were used up till the shuttle at many sites till they were decomissioned or upgraded. It is a radar which was originally designed to work at about 4 or 5 miles range and was modified to work out to a few hundred and make an antenna track the spacecraft. Very basic technology. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2010/11/verlort-manual-set.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 13:00:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:00:27 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 01:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 March 2013 17:19, Mouse wrote: >>> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. >> >> "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean >> here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. > > It's hate-speech. Short for "homosexual" and used as a generic insult. > His excuse being that his magic sky-pixie tells him to hate gay > people, making both him and his religion loathsome. I have the same magic sky-pixie. Said sky-pixie doesn't tell ME to hate gay people. Hating gay people is about PEOPLE, nothing more. Lots of people use religion to justify all sorts of shitty behavior. BTW...Religion is not the same as belief. Personally, I have the latter, but precisely ZERO of the former. So, please watch yourself, and your assumptions. "Homos" is no more "hate speech" than "magic sky-pixie", etc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rwhyre+cctalk at picrad.com Tue Mar 12 13:01:25 2013 From: rwhyre+cctalk at picrad.com (Ralph H) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:01:25 -0400 Subject: Price estimate on Altair 680b enclosure Optima ES case Message-ID: I'm looking for an enclosure for a vintage-style computer, and I'm hoping to get an estimate for the Optima ES case used for the Altair 680b, among other things. Has anyone on the list ordered one of these recently? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 13:31:38 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363113098.13624.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 11:00 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >On 03/12/2013 01:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 12 March 2013 17:19, Mouse wrote: >>> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. >> >> "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean >> here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. >> >> It's hate-speech. Short for "homosexual" and used as a generic insult. >> His excuse being that his magic sky-pixie tells him to hate gay >> people, making both him and his religion loathsome. > > I have the same magic sky-pixie. Said sky-pixie doesn't tell ME to >hate gay people. Hating gay people is about PEOPLE, nothing more. Lots >of people use religion to justify all sorts of shitty behavior. > > BTW...Religion is not the same as belief. Personally, I have the >latter, but precisely ZERO of the former. > > So, please watch yourself, and your assumptions. "Homos" is no more >"hate speech" than "magic sky-pixie", etc. > > -Dave Uh boy I was hoping this wouldn't continue. But certain drama queens refuse to let a meaningless litle comment go unpunished. sniff. Let's examine this hatred for just a moment. Would a "hater" call up a NATIONAL radio show, and proclaim TO THE NATION that I thought it was unfair for Adam Smith to be discharged from his position after that little escapade at a drive through. ONLY AFTER stating I was FURTHER TO THE RIGHT on the issue of gay "rights", gay "marriage", and gay acts (ewww) in general. I don't tolerate, accept, nor celebrate deviant behavior, but I can be fair to people at the same time. So that is the extant of my hatred for homos. And speaking of little FAGGOTS - in this context grown men who insist on acting like prissy little girls, Liam you are now officially A LIAR. What happened to all this talk of ignoring my posts??? Seemingly you can't wait for me to post something. I'm kind of feeling stalked at this point. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 13:38:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:38:02 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363113098.13624.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363113098.13624.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <513F760A.5050107@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 02:31 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. >>> >>> "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean >>> here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. >>> >>> It's hate-speech. Short for "homosexual" and used as a generic insult. >>> His excuse being that his magic sky-pixie tells him to hate gay >>> people, making both him and his religion loathsome. >> >> I have the same magic sky-pixie. Said sky-pixie doesn't tell ME to >> hate gay people. Hating gay people is about PEOPLE, nothing more. Lots >> of people use religion to justify all sorts of shitty behavior. >> >> BTW...Religion is not the same as belief. Personally, I have the >> latter, but precisely ZERO of the former. >> >> So, please watch yourself, and your assumptions. "Homos" is no more >> "hate speech" than "magic sky-pixie", etc. > > Uh boy I was hoping this wouldn't continue. But certain drama queens refuse to let a meaningless litle comment go unpunished. sniff. > Let's examine this hatred for just a moment. Would a "hater" call up a NATIONAL radio show, and proclaim TO THE NATION that I thought it was unfair for Adam Smith to be discharged from his position after that little escapade at a drive through. ONLY AFTER stating I was FURTHER TO THE RIGHT on the issue of gay "rights", gay "marriage", and gay acts (ewww) in general. I don't tolerate, accept, nor celebrate deviant behavior, but I can be fair to people at the same time. So that is the extant of my hatred for homos. > And speaking of little FAGGOTS - in this context grown men who insist on acting like prissy little girls, Liam you are now officially A LIAR. What happened to all this talk of ignoring my posts??? Seemingly you can't wait for me to post something. I'm kind of feeling stalked at this point. Dude. Really. Is this necessary? (EITHER of you!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 13:40:14 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:40:14 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 18:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/12/2013 01:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 12 March 2013 17:19, Mouse wrote: >>>> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. >>> >>> "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean >>> here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. >> >> It's hate-speech. Short for "homosexual" and used as a generic insult. >> His excuse being that his magic sky-pixie tells him to hate gay >> people, making both him and his religion loathsome. > > I have the same magic sky-pixie. Said sky-pixie doesn't tell ME to > hate gay people. Hating gay people is about PEOPLE, nothing more. Lots > of people use religion to justify all sorts of shitty behavior. > > BTW...Religion is not the same as belief. Personally, I have the > latter, but precisely ZERO of the former. > > So, please watch yourself, and your assumptions. "Homos" is no more > "hate speech" than "magic sky-pixie", etc. A fair point. Talking to fundies, I have found that they are by their very nature incapable of understanding and responding to rational argument - because the essential nature of fundamentalist belief is irrational, and therefore, they cannot be reasoned with. However, they are human, and they can be shocked or startled. So, for instance, they love their imaginary invisible friend and want me to love the imaginary friend too. They are incapable of mentally holding the thought that their imaginary friend does not exist - this is why many fundies claim that all atheists /secretly/ believe in their imaginary friend and are just /saying/ that said atheist does not believe in him/her/it/them. But if I tell them that I have read their magic book - which I have - and studied their religion - which I have - and that my considered, informed opinion is that their imaginary friend is an vindictive, spiteful, hate-filled and overall evil and that even if I believed in it - which I do not - that I would not worship it, then that tends to shut them up. And since fundies are too conditioned, too brain-washed, or just too stupid to be persuaded or reasoned with, and since I do not want to speak to them, hear from them, know anything more about their myths, or have anything to do with them whatsoever, then shutting them up is my primary objective. I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be a nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very stupid to boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do not share their myth, I am less than human: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/05/14/cardinal-cormack-murphy-oconno/ ... or a criminal: http://www.economist.com/news/international/21567059-ex-muslim-atheists-are-becoming-more-outspoken-tolerance-still-rare-no-god-not So, when they ask me if I respect their views, the answer can only be that I respect their views exactly as much as they respect mine. The difference being, of course, that my views are based on evidence, reason and logic. I give as I get. I have been called evil, subhuman, a liar, a genocide and so on. Why then should I be polite? Should I claim to respect beliefs that I actually despise? OTOH, I have a handful of deeply religious friends. We both think each other to be wrong or deluded, but we can have a laugh about it. If one is capable of having a sense of humour about deeply-held personal beliefs, or openly discussing such things and not taking the answers personally, then that person and I will probably get on just fine. "Chris Tofu" is not so capable. If you are, Dave, then cool, we'll have no problem. But I'm not going to lie to you. I am not merely proudly atheist, I am openly antitheist. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 12 13:41:02 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201303121841.OAA07905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> [...], though Lowes insist on being homos lately. >>> "homos"? [...]; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense >>> in this context. >> It's hate-speech. Short for "homosexual" and used as a generic >> insult. His excuse being that his magic sky-pixie tells him to hate >> gay people, making both him and his religion loathsome. Even assuming you're right, that's only a little more loathsome than dissing others' religions[%] with terms of ridicule (which is how I read "magic sky-pixie" here). [%] Whatever _that_ means - see below. > I have the same magic sky-pixie. Said sky-pixie doesn't tell ME to > hate gay people. Then - assuming that the quote above is an accurate assessement of why the word was used in the first place - it's obviously not the same one after all, no? > BTW...Religion is not the same as belief. No. But "religion" is a term with almost as many different intended meanings as there are people using it. I've seen/heard it used to mean practically everything from "any dogmatically-held belief" to "one of a small class of widely-popular subsects of the Abrahamic belief systems" to "any belief in a nonphysical reality". So I'd be very careful tossing it around in a discussion, especially an acrominous (or potentially acromonious) discussion, without making it clear which meaning is intended. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Mar 12 13:49:56 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according > to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do > not share their myth, I am less than human: ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From doc at vaxen.net Tue Mar 12 14:01:09 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:01:09 -0500 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513F7B75.6000509@vaxen.net> On 3/12/13 1:40 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be a > nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very stupid to > boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. Oddly enough, that perfectly describes both my assessment of and my desire concerning you. Please stop rationalizing your bigoted spew and shut the fuck up. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 14:04:54 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:04:54 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513F7C56.4010609@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 02:40 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> So, please watch yourself, and your assumptions. "Homos" is no more >> "hate speech" than "magic sky-pixie", etc. > > A fair point. > > Talking to fundies, I have found that they are by their very nature > incapable of understanding and responding to rational argument - > because the essential nature of fundamentalist belief is irrational, > and therefore, they cannot be reasoned with. However, they are human, > and they can be shocked or startled. "Fundies" is the brand name of "underwear built for two" that I saw in a gag gift store once when I was a teenager. Needless to say, I laughed aloud when I read this. ;) > So, for instance, they love their imaginary invisible friend and want > me to love the imaginary friend too. I could care less who you do or do not love. I know your beef is with Mr. Tofu, but painting everyone with so broad a brush is something that you might reconsider. > They are incapable of mentally > holding the thought that their imaginary friend does not exist - this > is why many fundies claim that all atheists /secretly/ believe in > their imaginary friend and are just /saying/ that said atheist does > not believe in him/her/it/them. Broad brush, etc. Personally, I examined my own beliefs, as I was raised with them, and made a conscious decision based on my examination. > And since fundies are too conditioned, too brain-washed, or just too > stupid to be persuaded or reasoned with, and since I do not want to > speak to them, hear from them, know anything more about their myths, > or have anything to do with them whatsoever, then shutting them up is > my primary objective. It is not the case that everyone who is not an atheist is "brainwashed". RELIGIOUS people maybe, but not simply non-atheists. (Religious people are NUTS...those fuckers start wars and stuff!) > I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be a > nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very stupid to > boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. You're a pretty hate-filled person yourself, as you detail in this email. Just sayin'.. ... > So, when they ask me if I respect their views, the answer can only be > that I respect their views exactly as much as they respect mine. > > The difference being, of course, that my views are based on evidence, > reason and logic. You make the assumption that anyone who is not an atheist has no evidence, reason, nor logic. That is not the case. I (personally) have my own reasons. They are none of your business, but they are very real, well-reasoned, have been critically examined, and I'm quite comfortable with them. You may not reach the same conclusions for your own self, but that's ok. > I give as I get. I have been called evil, subhuman, a liar, a genocide > and so on. Not by me, you haven't. Again, broad brushes.. > Why then should I be polite? Should I claim to respect > beliefs that I actually despise? Why would you *despise* a belief that you don't even share? That's not (as you say below) "athiest" or "anti-theist", that's "anti-theistic PEOPLE". > "Chris Tofu" is not so capable. If you are, Dave, then cool, we'll > have no problem. We'll have no problem either way, as long as you don't slam me for my beliefs. If you do, you're in for it...because I can just as easily slam you for yours. I have reasons for my beliefs, just as you do, and I'm just as prepared to back them up as you are. So, I believe by definition we have no problem. > But I'm not going to lie to you. I am not merely proudly atheist, I am > openly antitheist. That's nice. I'm not. And that's ok. You are quite militant about your atheism. I respectfully submit that this is no better than fundamentalist religious nutbags who automatically hate anyone who doesn't subscribe to THEIR religion, simply because they don't, and for no other reason. I respectfully submit that there is absolutely no difference between these two attitudes, and neither of them makes one fucking bit of sense. I'm gonna go boot up a PDP-8. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 14:15:18 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363115718.85137.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 11:49 AM PDT Mike Loewen wrote: >On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > >> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >> not share their myth, I am less than human: > > ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. I happen to agree Mike. But some people can't refrain from complaining about every little thing. Incidentally I found myself a bit perturbed over the long drawn out discussion of slide rules, was tempted to say something once or twice, but kept my mouth shut. But others... >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 14:24:44 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:24:44 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > >> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >> not share their myth, I am less than human: > > ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 14:25:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 12:01 PM PDT Doc wrote: >On 3/12/13 1:40 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be a >> nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very stupid to >> boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. > > > Oddly enough, that perfectly describes both my assessment of and my desire concerning you. > > Please stop rationalizing your bigoted spew and shut the fuck up. > > > Doc I mean really. I did approach him in a friendly manner, for the purpose of engaging in friendly debate. And it would seem he just couldn't handle it. I cannot understand why the discussion turned so vitriolic. I'll extend the olive branch once more, and even apologize fully for earlier comments. But like doc said you really need to shut that little trap once in a while Liam. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 14:36:54 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5151 needed... Message-ID: I'm looking to find a good, working IBM 5151 monochrome display and a PC/XT keyboard for a restoration I'd like to finish. If you've got one or both, please contact me off list. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 14:42:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:42:56 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >> >> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. > > Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk > about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all > be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. EMACS!!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 14:46:31 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >> >> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. > > Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk > about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all > be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. > Commodore rules, Atari drools! \m/ *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 14:55:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:55:41 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 03:25 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be >>> a nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very >>> stupid to boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. >> >> >> Oddly enough, that perfectly describes both my assessment of and my >> desire concerning you. >> >> Please stop rationalizing your bigoted spew and shut the fuck up. >> >> >> Doc > > I mean really. I did approach him in a friendly manner, for the > purpose of engaging in friendly debate. And it would seem he just > couldn't handle it. I cannot understand why the discussion turned so > vitriolic. I'll extend the olive branch once more, and even apologize > fully for earlier comments. But like doc said you really need to shut > that little trap once in a while Liam. There goes Chris, "extending his 'olive branch'" again. ("So THAT'S what they're calling it now!") -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 15:04:11 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>> >>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >> >> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. > > EMACS!!! > WordStar Non-Document Mode. Biatch. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Mar 12 15:04:22 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:04:22 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Dave McGuire [130312 16:00]: > On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: > >>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according > >>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do > >>> not share their myth, I am less than human: > >> > >> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. > > > > Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk > > about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all > > be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. > > EMACS!!! VI!!!!!! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 12 15:34:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> References: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130312133210.X58379@shell.lmi.net> "There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." -Linus (but not Torvalds. That's a RELIGION) From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 12 15:35:33 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:35:33 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2013, at 1:04 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>>>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>>>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>>> >>>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >>> >>> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >>> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >>> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >> >> EMACS!!! >> > WordStar > > > Non-Document Mode. > > TECO TTFN - Guy From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 12 15:36:13 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:36:13 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513F91BD.9020300@jwsss.com> On 3/12/2013 1:04 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>>>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>>>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>>> >>>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, >>>> so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >>> >>> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >>> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >>> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >> >> EMACS!!! >> > WordStar > > > Non-Document Mode. > > > Biatch. > > g. > > vi or ed echo > file dd with count. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 15:37:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363120666.67599.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 12:55 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >On 03/12/2013 03:25 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be >>> a nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very >>> stupid to boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. >> >> >> Oddly enough, that perfectly describes both my assessment of and my >> desire concerning you. >> >> Please stop rationalizing your bigoted spew and shut the fuck up. >> >> >> Doc >> >> I mean really. I did approach him in a friendly manner, for the >> purpose of engaging in friendly debate. And it would seem he just >> couldn't handle it. I cannot understand why the discussion turned so >> vitriolic. I'll extend the olive branch once more, and even apologize >> fully for earlier comments. But like doc said you really need to shut >> that little trap once in a while Liam. > > There goes Chris, "extending his 'olive branch'" again. > > ("So THAT'S what they're calling it now!") > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA Please. Don't give them any ideas... AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN LITTLE!!! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 12 15:38:30 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:38:30 -0700 Subject: OT: cctalk email Message-ID: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> I know this has probably been addressed at some time in the past, but I'm still bedaferated. Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at my ISP's mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original mail arrived on March 12 at 00.26.08? Is Allison really prescient? Does the order that posts arrive in my email have anything to do with the order in which they were sent? Just curious, not really pitching about it. --Chuck From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 12 15:39:29 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:39:29 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: TECO On 12 March 2013 20:04, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>>>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>>>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>>> >>>> >>>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so >>>> please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >>> >>> >>> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >>> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >>> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >> >> >> EMACS!!! >> > WordStar > > > Non-Document Mode. > > > Biatch. > > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 15:41:25 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:41:25 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 16:04, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Dave McGuire [130312 16:00]: >> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >> EMACS!!! > > VI!!!!!! I'm sorry, but I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome EDT is. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 15:41:37 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:41:37 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Dave McGuire [130312 16:00]: > > On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: > > >>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according > > >>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do > > >>> not share their myth, I am less than human: > > >> > > >> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, > so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. > > > > > > Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk > > > about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all > > > be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. > > > > EMACS!!! > > VI!!!!!! > Windows! (there, now I've gone and done it) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 15:43:08 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363120988.71381.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 1:04 PM PDT geneb wrote: >On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>> >>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >> >> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >> >> EMACS!!! >> >WordStar > > >Non-Document Mode. > > >Biatch. > >g. Can I be one of them too Genie?? Can I be that kind of pal to you just like Davey? You big strapping Great White Northern Top Gunner you! (And *if* that doesn't sound gay to you, there's something wrong...) > >-- >Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Mar 12 15:45:40 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:45:40 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, , <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com>, , , <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com>, <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com>, <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: EDT! > > > > > EMACS!!! > > VI!!!!!! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 12 15:57:31 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130312135622.N58379@shell.lmi.net> > >> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all > >> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. > > EMACS!!! > WordStar > Non-Document Mode. > Biatch. Electric Pencil (Michael Shrayer, not the later Harv Pennington versions) From lists at loomcom.com Tue Mar 12 16:00:57 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:00:57 -0400 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130312210057.GA20434@mail.loomcom.com> * On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:46:48AM -0700, Doug Salot wrote: > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 03/10/2013 09:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > One of Sellam's units, I believe. > > > > Yeah, I gave that to him over 10 years ago. It was a rescue from a > former SAIL hacker's garage. It had been stored next to his dryer vent > and was pretty severely corroded. I documented it a bit here: > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/imlac/ As soon as I saw it, I figured that's the one it was. I remember that day pretty well, it was a hell of a rescue. It's not every day you meet Bill Gosper and then drag an Imalc and a five-rack PDP-11/40 out of a garage. Seeing this getting sold on eBay just makes me sick. Sigh. -Seth From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 16:01:25 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363122085.48338.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 1:34 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: >religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." -Linus >(but not Torvalds. That's a RELIGION) The actual adage was undoubtedly invented by someone that wanted to shut down legitimate discussion. People don't want to be challenged, don't want to change (intrinsic in that is to be shown they're wrong), don't want their ideas challenged by facts. Let's just agree not to talk about Microsoft though, because they are like a god to me. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 16:03:13 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2013, at 1:04 PM, geneb wrote: > >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>>>>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>>>>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>>>> >>>>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >>>> >>>> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >>>> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >>>> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >>> >>> EMACS!!! >>> >> WordStar >> >> >> Non-Document Mode. >> >> > TECO > The Edit-Fu is strong in this one! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 16:23:24 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: cctalk email In-Reply-To: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> References: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I know this has probably been addressed at some time in the past, but I'm > still bedaferated. > > Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at my ISP's > mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original mail arrived on > March 12 at 00.26.08? > > Is Allison really prescient? > > Does the order that posts arrive in my email have anything to do with the > order in which they were sent? > > Just curious, not really pitching about it. > It's UDP email. Jeeze. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 12 16:23:47 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:23:47 -0400 Subject: OT: cctalk email In-Reply-To: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> References: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130312212347.GC13694@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > I know this has probably been addressed at some time in the past, but > I'm still bedaferated. > > Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at my > ISP's mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original mail > arrived on March 12 at 00.26.08? > > Is Allison really prescient? > > Does the order that posts arrive in my email have anything to do with > the order in which they were sent? > > Just curious, not really pitching about it. You can always check the email headers for the Received: lines and attempt to follow the email through all the systems. -spc From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 12 16:25:03 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: cctalk email In-Reply-To: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> References: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130312142259.U58379@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I know this has probably been addressed at some time in the past, but > I'm still bedaferated. > Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at my > ISP's mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original mail > arrived on March 12 at 00.26.08? One of the points that it was relayesd through might be far away. > Is Allison really prescient? Her career 3 or 4 decades ago would imply so. > Does the order that posts arrive in my email have anything to do with > the order in which they were sent? no -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 12 16:25:41 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:25:41 -0700 Subject: OT: cctalk email In-Reply-To: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> References: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I know this has probably been addressed at some time in the past, but I'm still bedaferated. > > Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at my ISP's mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original mail arrived on March 12 at 00.26.08? > > Is Allison really prescient? > > Does the order that posts arrive in my email have anything to do with the order in which they were sent? > > Just curious, not really pitching about it. I see it as a slightly different problem. I have my email sorted by when it was sent (as opposed to when it was received). I see some posts arrive days after they've been sent. Could be due to the "store-and-forward" nature of the emails and what route it took and what was up (or not) at the time a particular message is sent. TTFN - Guy From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 12 16:28:37 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > TECO > Editor name duplication, 5 yard penalty. Top posting, public execution. Have a nice day! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 16:36:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:36:20 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <513F9FD4.2070900@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 04:41 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>> EMACS!!! >> >> VI!!!!!! > > I'm sorry, but I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome EDT is. Nicely put. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 12 16:39:11 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:39:11 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 20:41, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 12 March 2013 16:04, Todd Goodman wrote: >> * Dave McGuire [130312 16:00]: >>> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> EMACS!!! >> >> VI!!!!!! > > I'm sorry, but I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome EDT is. I had to teach someone how to use VI. All he said, over and over again, was: "quit laughing" I can't imagine why. I like laughing. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Mar 12 16:39:40 2013 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:39:40 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> -----Original Message----- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS On Mar 12, 2013, at 1:04 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 03:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> As for other, less-fundamentalist religious people... well, according >>>>> to a number of leading figures from various religions, because I do >>>>> not share their myth, I am less than human: >>>> >>>> ...and all this has exactly NOTHING to do with vintage computers, so >>>> please, ALL OF YOU, go fight somewhere else. >>> >>> Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk >>> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >>> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >> >> EMACS!!! >> > WordStar > > > Non-Document Mode. > > TECO TECO for two please. From doc at vaxen.net Tue Mar 12 16:56:30 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:56:30 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know Message-ID: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> How to unsubscribe? Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" button. Repeatedly. Doc From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 12 17:00:54 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:00:54 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: copy con On 12 March 2013 20:45, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > EDT! > > >> >> > >> > EMACS!!! >> >> VI!!!!!! > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 17:07:26 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:07:26 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130312135622.N58379@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Dave G4UGM ------ Original Message ------ From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 12/03/2013 20:57:31 Subject: Re: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS >> >> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >> >> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >> > EMACS!!! >> WordStar >> Non-Document Mode. >> Biatch. > XEDIT (See you all knew I was different to the rest of you and that proves it) Dave G4UGM >Electric Pencil (Michael Shrayer, not the later Harv Pennington >versions) > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 12 17:08:03 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130312135622.N58379@shell.lmi.net> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312135622.N58379@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201303122208.SAA09301@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> EMACS!!! >> WordStar [...] > Electric Pencil [...] (also seen: EDT, TECO, etc) What's the big deal? You want to change something, you pull the relevant cards out of the deck, punch replacements, put 'em in, and you're done. Hardly worth making a fuss over. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lists at loomcom.com Tue Mar 12 17:29:53 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:29:53 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130312222953.GA22847@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 05:48:16PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 March 2013 17:19, Mouse wrote: > >> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. > > > > "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean > > here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. > > It's hate-speech. Hate speech? No, I wouldn't say that. Ignorant and very rude? Yes. -Seth From rrissell at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 14:33:42 2013 From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:33:42 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC Message-ID: On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not have a > FDC > > on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy disk it > > seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC board > > outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to try to > > connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? > > > > Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box of > 8" 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives and a > power supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I doubt it. > The cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on the mainboard. > Years ago I had a 820-II with both the 8086 daughter board and a drive case with 8" floppy and HD (All of 3MB). As I recall the protocol was SASI (hence the heavily-shielded 37-pin cable). From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 12 18:02:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20130312160113.L58379@shell.lmi.net> > > > > Better said than I could have. The only religions we need to talk > > > > about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all > > > > be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. > > > EMACS!!! > > VI!!!!!! On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > Windows! > (there, now I've gone and done it) Yeah. THAT was uncalled for. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 12 18:05:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363122085.48338.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363122085.48338.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130312160328.S58379@shell.lmi.net> > >"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: > >religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." -Linus On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > The actual adage was undoubtedly invented by someone that wanted to > shut down legitimate discussion. People don't want to be challenged, > don't want to change (intrinsic in that is to be shown they're wrong), > don't want their ideas challenged by facts. No, it is an adage objecting the results when somebody changes the subject to religion, politics, or The Great Pumpkin. > Let's just agree not to talk about Microsoft though, because they are > like a god to me. That seems like a reasonable place to draw the line. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 12 18:16:33 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:16:33 -0700 Subject: Editors In-Reply-To: <513F9FD4.2070900@neurotica.com> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <513F9FD4.2070900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <513FB751.1090001@jwsss.com> On 3/12/2013 2:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/12/2013 04:41 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>>> EMACS!!! >>> VI!!!!!! >> I'm sorry, but I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome EDT is. > Nicely put. :-) > > -Dave > QED or QEDX From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 18:24:03 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:24:03 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> Message-ID: > TECO for two please. 029! & 083. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 12 18:32:01 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: cctalk email In-Reply-To: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> References: <513F9246.1020001@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201303122332.TAA09720@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at > my ISP's mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original > mail arrived on March 12 at 00.26.08? In that specific case, I can't say. But see below. > Is Allison really prescient? Even if true, unlikely to be relevant. > Does the order that posts arrive in my email have anything to do with > the order in which they were sent? Yes. Not as much as you might think, but there _is_ a relation. In this case, the most plausible explanation that comes to mind is that the response you saw was sent out to both you and the list, and that mail fromk the list to you is delayed - perhaps you're late on the list, perhaps there's something about the mail path between the list and you, I don't know. Thus, Enrico sends to the list. Allison gets a copy quickly. Allison replies to you and the list. You get the off-list copy. Then you get the list copy of Enrico's mail. Later, you get the list copy of Allison's mail; perhaps you ignore it, perhaps your software notices it's a duplicate and silently hides it from you, I don't know. There are plenty of other explanations, such as mail queues not draining in order, but this strikes me as the likeliest. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 12 18:43:24 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:43:24 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <513FBD9C.4030302@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/13 2:56 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > How to unsubscribe? > After the past few weeks, a lot of us are wondering the same thing. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 18:45:31 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <1363131931.63580.YahooMailNeo@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Doc Shipley ? How to unsubscribe? ? Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" button.? Repeatedly. ??? Doc C: O come on don't go. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Mar 12 18:51:25 2013 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:51:25 +0000 Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 21:56, Doc Shipley wrote: > How to unsubscribe? > > Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" button. > Repeatedly. Try email cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with a subject of "unsubscribe" From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 12 18:53:54 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:53:54 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3377E561-8FE1-4744-88EB-B75159CBA189@shiresoft.com> On Mar 12, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Dave wrote: > > Dave > G4UGM > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: 12/03/2013 20:57:31 > Subject: Re: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS >>> >> about here are those of DEC, IBM, HP and a few others. We can all >>> >> be polytheists when it comes to our electric sand. >>> > EMACS!!! >>> WordStar >>> Non-Document Mode. >>> Biatch. >> > XEDIT > > (See you all knew I was different to the rest of you and that proves it) > SOS (Son Of Stopgap) TTFN - Guy From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 18:56:14 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:56:14 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 17:39, John Many Jars wrote: > I had to teach someone how to use VI. All he said, over and over again, was: > > "quit laughing" > > I can't imagine why. I like laughing. > I actually quite like VI. Though the RT-11 and RSTS/E versions of EDT is quite nice. Cheers. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 12 18:58:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <201303122358.TAA09861@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > How to unsubscribe? To quote the header from every list message, > List-Unsubscribe: , > Maybe mailing cctalk-request, as has been the mailing list convention since pretty much forever, would be useful? Indeed, you've been around long enough I can't help wondering that you don't already know this. But the only other explanation I can think of is that you're trying to make a point of some sort, and I can't think what it would be. > Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" > button. Repeatedly. I have no idea what's with that. I wouldn't go _near_ managing a mailing list subscripition with some Web cr...ud. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 19:32:00 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130312160113.L58379@shell.lmi.net> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <20130312200422.GI24159@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20130312160113.L58379@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1363134720.44671.YahooMailNeo@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > Windows! > (there, now I've gone and done it) Yeah. THAT was uncalled for. C: You will become...one of US! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 12 19:44:17 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:44:17 -0400 Subject: Delicious Middle Eastern Food - Re: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <513FCBE1.3000400@telegraphics.com.au> On 12/03/13 1:19 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Also Home Depot and Lowes, though Lowes insist on being homos lately. > > "homos"? I'm having trouble thinking what that could possibly mean > here; none of the meanings I've come up with make sense in this context. Maybe he means hummus? ...No, that doesn't fit either. --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 19:43:40 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC In-Reply-To: <513EDD47.7030504@gmail.com> References: <513ed92d.c8862b0a.3d64.1d64SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <513EDD47.7030504@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >> Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not have a >> FDC >> on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy disk it >> seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC board >> outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to try to >> connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? >> > Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box of > 8" 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives and a > power supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I doubt it. > The cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on the mainboard. My 82O-II does indeed have its floppy controller on a daughterboard. I suspect this is a different arrangement from the original 820 aka Ferguson Bigboard. -- From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 19:50:33 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:50:33 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> References: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12 March 2013 19:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/12/2013 03:25 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> I have communicated privately with "Chris Tofu". I know him to be >>>> a nasty, bigoted, hate-filled fundamentalist - and really very >>>> stupid to boot. So all I wish to do is shut him up. >>> >>> >>> Oddly enough, that perfectly describes both my assessment of and my >>> desire concerning you. >>> >>> Please stop rationalizing your bigoted spew and shut the fuck up. >>> >>> >>> Doc >> >> I mean really. I did approach him in a friendly manner, for the >> purpose of engaging in friendly debate. And it would seem he just >> couldn't handle it. I cannot understand why the discussion turned so >> vitriolic. I'll extend the olive branch once more, and even apologize >> fully for earlier comments. But like doc said you really need to shut >> that little trap once in a while Liam. > > There goes Chris, "extending his 'olive branch'" again. > > ("So THAT'S what they're calling it now!") I wouldn't know, I didn't see it. But a Mod has had a quiet word and I will try very hard to remember to refrain from ever mentioning religion on ClassicCmp again. I sincerely apologise for the offtopic noise. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 19:55:08 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:55:08 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> Message-ID: i think u need to email a command to the system On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > How to unsubscribe? > > Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" button. > Repeatedly. > > > Doc > From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Mar 12 19:55:56 2013 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, William Donzelli wrote: > Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:24:03 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS > >> TECO for two please. > > 029! > > & 083. > > -- > Will > TEdit Peter Wallace From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 12 20:05:25 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:05:25 -0700 Subject: Univac III available Message-ID: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> I have a system which has been talked about here available for sale. Several list members probably know about it, and had expressed interest. I'm trying to sell it for a friend. The bulk of the system is in Norco, Ca, and there is a large block of card equipment still in Ok, City. Please make offers http://jwstephens.com/univac3/page_01.htm http://jwstephens.com/univac3/page_01.htm I can supply more information on request. thanks Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 12 20:19:38 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:19:38 -0700 Subject: TMS4100 IC Message-ID: <11929D16-55BB-47C2-B972-F89BBA8F64B4@cs.ubc.ca> Idle curiousity, does anyone happen to know whether the TMS4100 ROM was a standard off-the-shelf character generator from TI, or was it a generic mask-ROM-to-customer-order, or otherwise have data on it such as it's native size. Full id: TMS4100 ZA 5705 T-04163 7308 <-- date code It's the character generator in the HP9830, arranged for character column scanning order rather than row scanning (7-bits columns at the outputs rather than 5-bit rows). I see three possibilities: - the TI TMS4100 is a character generator ROM - it's a TI TMS 4100 mask ROM, programmed and sold by TI as a character gen - it's a TI TMS 4100 mask ROM, programmed to order for HP I've sorted out the pinout, so it's not a dire need, just curious. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 21:03:09 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:03:09 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FBD9C.4030302@bitsavers.org> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> <513FBD9C.4030302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <513FDE5D.2020601@gmail.com> On 03/12/2013 06:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/12/13 2:56 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> How to unsubscribe? >> > > After the past few weeks, a lot of us are wondering the same thing. Huh, did I miss a bunch of drama? From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Mar 12 21:15:41 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:15:41 -0400 Subject: think of buying Altair 8800 remake In-Reply-To: <1363050292.56132.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1363050292.56132.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <513FE14D.7090909@verizon.net> On 03/11/2013 09:04 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am think of buying an Altair 8800 remake > > > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Child of the Internet born 1983 > PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0 50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > > > You have my sympathy. I'd just hunt around for anything of a dozen other S100 crates. That have more value than a remake. Then again, Opportunity! Sell mine.. Nah. Just kidding. Allison From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 21:43:08 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:43:08 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC In-Reply-To: References: <513ed92d.c8862b0a.3d64.1d64SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <513EDD47.7030504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513FE7BC.6070702@gmail.com> On 3/12/2013 5:43 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: > >> On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >>> Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not >>> have a FDC >>> on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy >>> disk it >>> seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC >>> board >>> outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to >>> try to >>> connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? >>> > >> Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box >> of 8" 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives >> and a power supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I >> doubt it. The cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on >> the mainboard. > > My 82O-II does indeed have its floppy controller on a daughterboard. > I suspect this is a different arrangement from the original 820 aka > Ferguson Bigboard. I am sure you are right but, I don't see anything but a power supply with the floppy drives in this video. Looks identical to the non II floppy units I had. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9OwwolhLuE From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 22:08:58 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:08:58 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> I have been reading conflicting information on these. Is the VAX 8800 console just a DEC Pro 380 with an extra real time interface card or a modified Pro 380 ? I guess the gist is can the ones sold as 8800 consoles be used as regular Pro 380 ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 12 23:34:47 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:34:47 -0800 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:08 PM -0700 3/12/13, mc68010 wrote: >I have been reading conflicting information on these. Is the VAX >8800 console just a DEC Pro 380 with an extra real time interface >card or a modified Pro 380 ? I guess the gist is can the ones sold >as 8800 consoles be used as regular Pro 380 ? To make it even more confusing, I think that they first used Pro 360's. Basically it's a DEC Professional with an Interface Card, and the Console software installed on the HD. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 22:36:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:36:07 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mine (on an 8700) was a standard 380 with an interface card installed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Mar 12, 2013, at 11:08 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have been reading conflicting information on these. Is the VAX 8800 console just a DEC Pro 380 with an extra real time interface card or a modified Pro 380 ? I guess the gist is can the ones sold as 8800 consoles be used as regular Pro 380 ? From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 22:37:46 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 03:37:46 +0000 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced Message-ID: <919305080-1363145863-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2111808600-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> My condolences to all of ya. I can only imagine the emotion seeing rescues and personal work getting sold by scrappers. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 22:46:15 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:46:15 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513FF687.1050506@gmail.com> On 3/12/2013 9:34 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:08 PM -0700 3/12/13, mc68010 wrote: >> I have been reading conflicting information on these. Is the VAX 8800 >> console just a DEC Pro 380 with an extra real time interface card or >> a modified Pro 380 ? I guess the gist is can the ones sold as 8800 >> consoles be used as regular Pro 380 ? > > To make it even more confusing, I think that they first used Pro > 360's. Basically it's a DEC Professional with an Interface Card, and > the Console software installed on the HD. > > Zane > > > I was just looking at this thing http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Dec-PC380-AA-Vintage-Desktop-READ-/121079123595. It's kind of pricey, ugly, and missing the monitor. Googling PC380-AA seems to say its a VAX 8800 console. Is there anyway to use one of these off the serial port ? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 22:48:16 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:48:16 -0500 Subject: Univac III available In-Reply-To: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> Message-ID: wow nice On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > I have a system which has been talked about here available for sale. > Several list members probably know about it, and had expressed interest. > > I'm trying to sell it for a friend. > > The bulk of the system is in Norco, Ca, and there is a large block of card > equipment still in Ok, City. > > Please make offers > > http://jwstephens.com/univac3/**page_01.htm > > http://jwstephens.com/univac3/**page_01.htm > > I can supply more information on request. > > > thanks > Jim > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 12 23:03:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:03:36 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <513FF687.1050506@gmail.com> References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> <513FF687.1050506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513FFA98.5070400@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 11:46 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I was just looking at this thing > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Dec-PC380-AA-Vintage-Desktop-READ-/121079123595. > It's kind of pricey, ugly, and missing the monitor. Googling PC380-AA > seems to say its a VAX 8800 console. Is there anyway to use one of these > off the serial port ? I don't know offhand, but amusingly, I know that seller well. That's a surplus place that I used to shop at every Saturday when I lived in Maryland. I haven't been there in about twelve years, but it was AWESOME the last time I was there. He was never really open to the public, but a group of us would go every weekend and drop way too much coin. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 23:33:29 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console Message-ID: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 9:03 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know offhand, but amusingly, I know that seller well. That's >a surplus place that I used to shop at every Saturday when I lived in >Maryland. I haven't been there in about twelve years, but it was >AWESOME the last time I was there. He was never really open to the >public, but a group of us would go every weekend and drop way too much coin. I can believe it. 90$ for a Jornada??! Incidentally 6 months ago or a bit more someone on the list was clearing out their storage unit and was offering boxes in this category. Chicago area I think. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 23:42:04 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:42:04 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5140039C.5050101@gmail.com> On 3/12/2013 9:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 9:03 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I don't know offhand, but amusingly, I know that seller well. That's >> a surplus place that I used to shop at every Saturday when I lived in >> Maryland. I haven't been there in about twelve years, but it was >> AWESOME the last time I was there. He was never really open to the >> public, but a group of us would go every weekend and drop way too much coin. > I can believe it. 90$ for a Jornada??! > I once bought a Jornada for no other reason than to impress the woman I was out on a lunch date with. I think I used it twice. It was the dotcom days. I had more money than sense. I still have the stupid thing in a drawer somewhere. The date went ok though. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 13 00:04:00 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:04:00 -0600 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <17150791-D3C5-4DAD-8868-2B06DDB31E61@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513EB823.7000909@brouhaha.com> <17150791-D3C5-4DAD-8868-2B06DDB31E61@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <514008C0.6060107@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Due to the interest in the AGC over the past decade, I believe a lot > of those records have been found, if it couldn't be matched by part > number to an existing AGC. It was said in one ref to be from a Block 1 > model though, which might make it more difficult to affirm. > I don't think the part number is in question. The serial number records seem unlikely to have survived. From g-wright at att.net Wed Mar 13 00:00:23 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Putr and tu58 problems, solved In-Reply-To: <1363063098.12292.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363063098.12292.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1363150823.23366.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Jerry Wright To: cc_talk Sent: Mon, March 11, 2013 9:39:02 PM Subject: Putr and tu58 problems I'm trying to read some tu58 tapes with PUTR. mount dd0: com1:9600 /drive:0 It finds the drive and just cycles the tape back and forth with out any errors, forever. . If I remove the tape, it errors on device not ready. Watching the LEDs on my Serial cable break_out there is activity on both line 2 then 3 as the tape cycles back and forth. I have used the same drive on a PDP11 to read the directory on some of the tapes with out any problems. what am I doing wrong here. - Jerry I was trying this with a Thinkpad laptop. Moved to a standard PC and everything worked fine. I use the Thinkpads with Procomm all the time. Easy to move and fit nicely on top of a Dec rack. Just not sure what would cause the PUTR problem - Jerry From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 13 00:06:51 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:06:51 -0600 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> <513EBD2E.9010706@brouhaha.com> <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5140096B.30504@brouhaha.com> On 03/12/2013 01:35 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/11/2013 10:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> mc68010 wrote: >>> I think a case could be made that these are government property >> >> I don't think a case can be made for that without digging up actual >> records. At this point the government would need to prove that it is >> their property. >> >> > > It does sort of say NASA on it. It is actually right on it. Which proves nothing regarding current ownership. > >> Irrelevant. The government buys billions of dollars of stuff every >> year that is "never meant to be sold", and eventually it all gets >> sold, unless it's classified, in which case it is declassified then >> sold or scrapped. (Sometimes after declassification there's no value >> other than as recyclable materials.) > > I have more than one friend with stuff they shouldn't have. Stuff they > bought at auction. It is more bureaucratic error. Classified and some > even up to the nuclear level. It slips through all the time. Which proves nothing regarding current ownership of old NASA hardware. >> >> Even if it could be shown that they didn't explicitly intend to sell >> it, they would also have to show that it wasn't abandoned, since >> abandoning property with no demonstrable intent to recover it >> forfeits ownership. >> >> >>> If NASA decided they wanted them back I imagine they could be taken >>> back. >> >> Not likely. NASA surplused by public auction an incredible amount of >> stuff from the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs. There's no >> reason to believe that this wasn't legitimately surplused. > > That was by mistake. No, it wasn't by mistake. It was all done by legitimate government policy. > > What is really amazing is how sloppy the bookkeeping during the Apollo > program was. They were in such a hurry they just didn't care. They kept track of the things that needed keeping track of, for at least as long as they needed to be kept track of. (With some mistakes, as occur in any human endeavor.) Eric From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 00:06:02 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jornadas was Re: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console Message-ID: <1363151162.90531.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 9:42 PM PDT mc68010 wrote: >On 3/12/2013 9:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 9:03 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I don't know offhand, but amusingly, I know that seller well. That's >> a surplus place that I used to shop at every Saturday when I lived in >> Maryland. I haven't been there in about twelve years, but it was >> AWESOME the last time I was there. He was never really open to the >> public, but a group of us would go every weekend and drop way too much coin. >> I can believe it. 90$ for a Jornada??! >> >I once bought a Jornada for no other reason than to impress the woman I >was out on a lunch date with. I think I used it twice. It was the dotcom >days. I had more money than sense. I still have the stupid thing in a >drawer somewhere. The date went ok though. Did you marry her? I happen to like them. it's HP mon. I just don't think they command that much. Yes I do recall them being the rage back then. I even have a monochrome 360lx or something that I won for 1$ a couple of years ago. Like a fool I somehow plugged the wrong p/s in and started to smell caps. Haven't gotten around to opening it (if that's even practical). They're nifty. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 13 00:13:37 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:13:37 -0600 Subject: NASA Rope memory / AGC / was Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> References: <82B6340D-9A13-4E7F-A79F-AA171C457B3A@cs.ubc.ca> <513D734A.1060600@gmail.com> <93B00C6A-5078-448A-9D2A-61BE6E03132D@cs.ubc.ca> <513D8125.5020706@gmail.com> <513EBD2E.9010706@brouhaha.com> <513EDAA6.5010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51400B01.50604@brouhaha.com> On 03/12/2013 01:35 AM, mc68010 wrote: > Every rock from the moon was just 'loaned' to whoever was allowed to > hold it. Incorrect. Many were actually officially given by President Nixon to other countries. Given as in "transfer of ownership", not "loan". From doc at vaxen.net Wed Mar 13 00:15:25 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:15:25 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <51400B6D.4080902@vaxen.net> On 3/12/13 6:51 PM, Rob wrote: > On 12 March 2013 21:56, Doc Shipley wrote: >> How to unsubscribe? >> >> Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" button. >> Repeatedly. > > Try email cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with a subject of "unsubscribe" Well now I feel dumb as a box of rocks.... I used to know that. Doc From wilson at dbit.com Wed Mar 13 01:18:02 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 02:18:02 -0400 Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 03:46:31PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: I'm sure I >have a few VT102s (probably more VT101s). If you don't get an offer >close enough for pickup, let me know. Will Kranz hooked me up with one -- but thanks very much for the offer! Sure enough, the VT102 has a *third* style of autowrap (slightly different from the VT100 and VT101). Plus the cursor blink rules seem a little different (on the VT100, just about everything restarts the blink period at the about-to-turn-on point but the 102 doesn't seem to bother unless something *visible* happens). John Wilson D Bit From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 13 01:36:23 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 02:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201303130636.CAA12054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Sure enough, the VT102 has a *third* style of autowrap (slightly > different from the VT100 and VT101). Okay, now I'm curious. What are the differences? My mental model of VT100-family autowrap is that sending a character that would normally go in the rightmost column works but doesn't move the cursor; another printing character causes a wrap and the new character is placed in the leftmost column of the new line. This must be wrong, or at least incomplete, for at least two of the silly things.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 02:31:32 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 00:31:32 -0700 Subject: Jornadas was Re: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <1363151162.90531.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363151162.90531.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51402B54.20207@gmail.com> On 3/12/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 9:42 PM PDT mc68010 wrote: > >> On 3/12/2013 9:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> ------------------------------ >>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 9:03 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> I don't know offhand, but amusingly, I know that seller well. That's >>> a surplus place that I used to shop at every Saturday when I lived in >>> Maryland. I haven't been there in about twelve years, but it was >>> AWESOME the last time I was there. He was never really open to the >>> public, but a group of us would go every weekend and drop way too much coin. >>> I can believe it. 90$ for a Jornada??! >>> >> I once bought a Jornada for no other reason than to impress the woman I >> was out on a lunch date with. I think I used it twice. It was the dotcom >> days. I had more money than sense. I still have the stupid thing in a >> drawer somewhere. The date went ok though. > Did you marry her? > We dated a couple of years but, I am not sure I can give the Jornada any credit for that. She gave me a hard time whenever she ran into the thing in a drawer in the kitchen. They early days of PDA were really terrible. You really had to try to find uses for the things. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 13 02:41:44 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:41:44 +1300 Subject: My Atari 800XL on YouTube Message-ID: I'd love an Atari 800 but its successor is OK too. (-: http://youtu.be/rxmcUVYECJg Terry (Tez) From wilson at dbit.com Wed Mar 13 02:54:19 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 03:54:19 -0400 Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <201303130636.CAA12054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> <201303130636.CAA12054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130313075419.GA17866@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 02:36:23AM -0400, Mouse wrote: >Okay, now I'm curious. What are the differences? > >My mental model of VT100-family autowrap is that sending a character >that would normally go in the rightmost column works but doesn't move >the cursor; another printing character causes a wrap and the new >character is placed in the leftmost column of the new line. This must >be wrong, or at least incomplete, for at least two of the silly >things.... That's correct, but the funny part is what unrelated stuff causes the "wrap" flag to get cleared. This is off the top of my head so may be buggy: write printing character: if not in final column then write character to screen advance cursor clear "wrap" flag else if "wrap" flag set then (even if ESC [?7l has been received since last printing char) now write char in column 1 as above else write char in final column (don't advance cursor) if ESC [?7h mode then set "wrap" flag else clear "wrap" flag endif endif endif Other things that clear the wrap flag: VT100: nothing! (practically) any escape code or ctrl char does its thing w/o affecting wrap flag Ex.: write a char at col 80, then use ESC [ A / B / C / D and/or ESC [ y ; x H to move around but wind up at col 80 of any line and write another char => wraps VT101: anything that causes the cursor to leave the current line CR, BS, TAB, ESC [xC, ESC [xD, ESC [ ; col H etc. don't LF, ESC [xA, ESC [xB, ESC [ ; col H etc. do Ex.: write a char at col 80, then use ESC [ C / D etc. or BS/TAB to move around this line but wind up at col 80 and write another char => wraps VT102: anything that moves the cursor ESC [m etc. doesn't, so it's not just any data of any kind, but if the cursor moves then the flag clears Ex.: write a char at col 80, ESC [D, ESC [C, write another => no wrap (at least that's what I have so far) Seems like no big deal, but the VTTEST package (at least the version I've tried) expects VT102/VT220 behavior and pronounces the actual DEC VT100 (and anything that emulates its wrap behavior) as unworthy, which takes a certain amount of chutzpah. So I'm having fun obsessing over this lately. John Wilson D Bit From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 06:59:09 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 07:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC In-Reply-To: <513FE7BC.6070702@gmail.com> References: <513ed92d.c8862b0a.3d64.1d64SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <513EDD47.7030504@gmail.com> <513FE7BC.6070702@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/12/2013 5:43 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >>>> Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not have a >>>> FDC >>>> on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy disk it >>>> seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC board >>>> outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to try to >>>> connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? >>>> >> >>> Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box of 8" >>> 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives and a power >>> supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I doubt it. The >>> cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on the mainboard. >> >> My 82O-II does indeed have its floppy controller on a daughterboard. I >> suspect this is a different arrangement from the original 820 aka Ferguson >> Bigboard. > I am sure you are right but, I don't see anything but a power supply with the > floppy drives in this video. Looks identical to the non II floppy units I > had. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9OwwolhLuE I think we're talking about different cases. The disk controller is clearly visible in the closeup of the computer itself. It may have been a different PCB in the floppy vs. hard-disk system. On a related subject, I would love to get my hands on an 820-II with hard drive. Had two lined up at different points but both sellers flaked out and stopped answering e-mail. Wonder if there's some sort of distortion field projected from these units? If anybody has one they'd like to part with, I can do cash or trade. Steve -- From FRED at miser.misernet.net Wed Mar 13 08:03:14 2013 From: FRED at miser.misernet.net (Fred) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:03:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 115, Issue 25 Message-ID: <01OR82919KKI8WW3CW@MISER.MISERNET.NET> >From: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" 12-MAR-2013 20:00:02.92 >To: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" >CC: >Subj: cctalk Digest, Vol 115, Issue 25 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:00:54 +0000 >From: John Many Jars >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >copy con edlin? *ducks* I also like the other Dave's XEDIT suggestion! :) Fred From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 08:40:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:40:39 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <514081D7.4000804@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 12:33 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I don't know offhand, but amusingly, I know that seller well. >> That's a surplus place that I used to shop at every Saturday when I >> lived in Maryland. I haven't been there in about twelve years, but >> it was AWESOME the last time I was there. He was never really open >> to the public, but a group of us would go every weekend and drop >> way too much coin. > > I can believe it. 90$ for a Jornada??! I didn't get consumer toys from this place. I usually scored high-end test equipment, VAXen, and at least one Cray. (nearly all of which I still have) They only (comparatively) recently started up an eBay operation. In general they are extremely reasonable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 13 10:18:26 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <20130313075419.GA17866@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> <201303130636.CAA12054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130313075419.GA17866@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201303131518.LAA22927@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Okay, now I'm curious. What are the differences? [among the various VTxxx's flavours of wrap] >> My mental model of VT100-family autowrap is [...] > That's correct, but the funny part is what unrelated stuff causes the > "wrap" flag to get cleared. Ooh, right. I'm particularly curious because I have a terminal emulator which, among other things, can be told to emulate something moderately close to a VT100. I'd like to get its wrapping behaviour right; this complicates the question because now I have to decide what I think "right" is. :-) > Seems like no big deal, but the VTTEST package (at least the version > I've tried) expects VT102/VT220 behavior and pronounces the actual > DEC VT100 (and anything that emulates its wrap behavior) as unworthy, > which takes a certain amount of chutzpah. Indeed! A quick look at my code indicates that I don't quite do any of those. The only thing I see explicitly clearing the "wrap now" flag is tab, and, more importantly, if I'm reading the code right then the flag takes effect even when the character being written isn't going into the rightmost column. I should have a closer look. Thanks for explaining! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 11:05:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Atari 800XL on YouTube Message-ID: <1363190746.76138.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 12:41 AM PDT Terry Stewart wrote: >I'd love an Atari 800 but its successor is OK too. (-: >http://youtu.be/rxmcUVYECJg > >Terry (Tez) Another excellent vid Terry. Just avoid 400s though. Unless you keep a ball peen hammer on hand with which to type. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 13 11:06:41 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:06:41 -0600 Subject: USB to Omnibus interface news In-Reply-To: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> References: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <513EAE4A.4090806 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > I have decided to make a 25 piece batch of the new board. A prototype > without gold fingers (it will have gold fingers in the end) can also be > seen in my new webshop: http://shop.hachti.de I guess I was expecting the USB connector to be on the top of the board instead of the side. Is this the normal side for I/O connectors on a PDP8 board? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 13 11:15:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:15:25 -0600 Subject: Spare Keys for DECwriter III? In-Reply-To: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> References: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> Message-ID: In article <20130312064341.153480 at gmx.net>, "Arno Kletzander" writes: > Also included in my recent haul of DECquipment was a DECwriter III printing > terminal. This is believed to be functional, but missing the "N" key and > the outermost key in the low left (adjacent to CTRL and SHIFT, is that > "ALT"? "NO SCL"?). Just asking if anybody got those as spares from an old > junker and might be persuaded to part with them. I believe the keycaps are the same physical shape as those on a VT100 keyboard -- they certainly come off as easy as those on a VT100. This picture shows a nice view of the LA-120 keyboard: If you don't care about the labelling but just want a keycap, a VT100 keyboard may suffice as a cheap source of compatiable keycaps. If you want the correctly labelled keycap, you're going to need to find an LA-120 keycap replacement kit or find one that someone is junking. Paul Anderson may have a keycaps field service kit, you could contact him directly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 13 11:25:23 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:25:23 -0600 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <20130312210057.GA20434@mail.loomcom.com> References: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> <20130312210057.GA20434@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: In article <20130312210057.GA20434 at mail.loomcom.com>, Seth Morabito writes: > Seeing this getting sold on eBay just makes me sick. Sigh. Yeah, much better to see it ground up into scrap. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 11:28:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:28:13 -0400 Subject: Spare Keys for DECwriter III? In-Reply-To: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> References: <20130312064341.153480@gmx.net> Message-ID: <5140A91D.2090306@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2013 02:43 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Also included in my recent haul of DECquipment was a DECwriter III > printing terminal. This is believed to be functional, but missing the > "N" key and the outermost key in the low left (adjacent to CTRL and > SHIFT, is that "ALT"? "NO SCL"?). Just asking if anybody got those as > spares from an old junker and might be persuaded to part with them. I believe I can "hook you up", as they say. Send me your shipping address off-list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 11:27:28 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:27:28 -0400 Subject: USB to Omnibus interface news In-Reply-To: References: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5140A8F0.4060008@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 12:06 PM, Richard wrote: >> I have decided to make a 25 piece batch of the new board. A prototype >> without gold fingers (it will have gold fingers in the end) can also be >> seen in my new webshop: http://shop.hachti.de > > I guess I was expecting the USB connector to be on the top of the > board instead of the side. Is this the normal side for I/O connectors > on a PDP8 board? Side-mounted connectors are common on Omnibus boards. There's a "channel" of sorts in the power supply subchassis of the 8/e that serves as a cableway all the way to the rear of the chassis. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 11:37:56 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:37:56 -0400 Subject: USB to Omnibus interface news In-Reply-To: References: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Richard wrote: > I guess I was expecting the USB connector to be on the top of the > board instead of the side. Is this the normal side for I/O connectors > on a PDP8 board? I think it's normal for the PDP-8/e/f/m (for quad OMNIBUS cards in general). Hex cards (PDP-8/a) have them typically facing the fingers (there's a way to get cables out past the E/F fingers) or the handles (for the programmer's front panel). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 11:45:20 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:45:20 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> References: <513FD0D5.8080309@jwsss.com> <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:08 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have been reading conflicting information on these. Is the VAX 8800 > console just a DEC Pro 380 with an extra real time interface card or a > modified Pro 380 ? I guess the gist is can the ones sold as 8800 consoles be > used as regular Pro 380 ? It's a regular Pro380. You can leave the interface card in. The software is based on P/OS, but boots up to an application that makes it useful as a console. If you have multiple hard drives you could swap in a fresh one and load up P/OS or RT-11 (in the official RT-11 5.something (5.3? 5.4?) software kit, there's an extra floppy for Pro machines, IIRC). Venix is another option. -ethan From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 11:51:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: long shot - need k a few keys/pots for Franklin PC 8000 Message-ID: <1363193510.38958.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'll likely pull it out of storage today, and try to provide more details. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 11:51:52 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: long shot - need k a few keys/pots for Franklin PC 8000 Message-ID: <1363193512.98387.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'll likely pull it out of storage today, and try to provide more details. From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Mar 13 12:46:10 2013 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:46:10 -0700 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <5140BB62.8829.26EF2839@brian.quarterbyte.com> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the childish rants or not. No comment or argument from this group is going to have any effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Mar 13 12:51:32 2013 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:51:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: cctalk email Message-ID: <498735468.546177.1363197092245.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 8 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:32:01 -0400 (EDT) >From: Mouse < mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG > > >> Why is it that Allison's response to Enrico's CP/M query arrived at >> my ISP's mailserver on March 11, at 19.18.10 and Enrico's original >> mail arrived on March 12 at 00.26.08? > >In that specific case, I can't say. But see below. > >In this case, the most plausible explanation that comes to mind is that >the response you saw was sent out to both you and the list, and that >mail fromk the list to you is delayed - perhaps you're late on the >list, perhaps there's something about the mail path between the list >and you, I don't know. Thus, Enrico sends to the list. Allison gets a >copy quickly. Allison replies to you and the list. You get the >off-list copy. Then you get the list copy of Enrico's mail. Later, >you get the list copy of Allison's mail; perhaps you ignore it, perhaps >your software notices it's a duplicate and silently hides it from you, >I don't know. There must be a different explanation. I get the list in digest form. Allison's response was in one digest and Enrico's question was in a second, _Later_ digest. Bob From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 13:27:16 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those words. And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT Brian Knittel wrote: >The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney Fag" >comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the person at that >time so didn't see the most recent example. > >Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the childish >rants or not. > >No comment or argument from this group is going to have any effect >other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, barring that, >just don't reply to anything. Simple. > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 13 13:32:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:32:51 -0700 Subject: OT: cctalk email In-Reply-To: <498735468.546177.1363197092245.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <498735468.546177.1363197092245.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5140C653.7040102@sydex.com> On 03/13/2013 10:51 AM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > There must be a different explanation. I get the list in digest form. > Allison's response was in one digest and Enrico's question was in a > second, _Later_ digest. At least someone else noticed this--when I took both emails and ran down through relays, they were very timely. The delay seemed to be relay from one server dewey.classiccmp.org to itself. I'm used to seeing a message and reply delayed by an hour or two and out of order, but not several hours. So that got me wondering. Sorry if I offended anyone's semsibilities by asking about it. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 13:43:03 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:43:03 -0400 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5140C8B7.2000601@neurotica.com> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. NOW. I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. Jackass. -Dave On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. > > Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those words. > > And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. > > ------------------------------ > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT Brian Knittel wrote: > >> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney Fag" >> comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the person at that >> time so didn't see the most recent example. >> >> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the childish >> rants or not. >> >> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any effect >> other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, barring that, >> just don't reply to anything. Simple. >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 13:52:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363200775.19186.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. Truly adolescent besides little man. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. > > NOW. > > I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. > > Jackass. > > -Dave > >On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> >> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >> >> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those words. >> >> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT Brian Knittel wrote: >> >> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney Fag" >> comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the person at that >> time so didn't see the most recent example. >> >> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the childish >> rants or not. >> >> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any effect >> other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, barring that, >> just don't reply to anything. Simple. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 13:58:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:58:42 -0400 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363200775.19186.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363200775.19186.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5140CC62.6000605@neurotica.com> What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man whom I consider a friend. You don't have to do what I tell you. I'm quite certain your days on this list are numbered. One does not say shit like that and get away with it. And as for my "little threat"...show up. Make my day. Fucking dirtbag. -Dave On 03/13/2013 02:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't > have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. > > And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. > Truly adolescent besides little man. > > ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave > McGuire wrote: > >> >> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >> >> NOW. >> >> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >> >> Jackass. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> >>> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue >>> the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >>> >>> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have >>> their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of >>> cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably >>> uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who >>> wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT >>> IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A >>> whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people >>> get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a >>> vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending >>> some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just >>> might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with >>> explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those >>> words. >>> >>> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. >>> You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos >>> who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that >>> want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go >>> to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >>> >>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT >>> Brian Knittel wrote: >>> >>> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney >>> Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the >>> person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. >>> >>> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >>> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the >>> childish rants or not. >>> >>> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any >>> effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, >>> barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 13 13:59:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:59:43 -0700 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5140CC9F.9000101@sydex.com> Sorry Chris, you just made my permanent spam filter. Too bad, it might have been fun. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 14:15:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363202150.98201.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I live in New Jersey where you're from little tough guy. You know the way. And what do I care who's your friend??? I'm supposed to continuously abide by the attacks against me, and your threats little punk. I don't think your enough man to take me on. Not that I find your petty threat the least bit credible. How pathetic. Yes little man you've given them enough reason for them to ban me. Congratulations for throwing gasoline on the match, from the getgo. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:58 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man >whom I consider a friend. > > You don't have to do what I tell you. I'm quite certain your days on >this list are numbered. One does not say shit like that and get away >with it. > > And as for my "little threat"...show up. Make my day. > > Fucking dirtbag. > > -Dave > >On 03/13/2013 02:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't >> have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. >> >> And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. >> Truly adolescent besides little man. >> >> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave >> McGuire wrote: >> >> >> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >> >> NOW. >> >> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >> >> Jackass. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> >>> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue >>> the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >>> >>> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have >>> their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of >>> cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably >>> uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who >>> wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT >>> IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A >>> whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people >>> get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a >>> vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending >>> some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just >>> might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with >>> explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those >>> words. >>> >>> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. >>> You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos >>> who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that >>> want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go >>> to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >>> >>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT >>> Brian Knittel wrote: >>> >>> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney >>> Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the >>> person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. >>> >>> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >>> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the >>> childish rants or not. >>> >>> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any >>> effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, >>> barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA >> > > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 14:20:25 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363202425.98559.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Yes Chuck I enjoyed and appreciate your inputs over the years also. But there's just too much going wrong with the fucking world to just sit idly by. That's the price that has to be payed I guess. Thanks for the kind words though. Bound to be a lot more then I'll get from anyone else. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:59 AM PDT Chuck Guzis wrote: >Sorry Chris, you just made my permanent spam filter. Too bad, it might have been fun. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 13 14:30:05 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <5140CC62.6000605@neurotica.com> References: <1363200775.19186.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140CC62.6000605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man > whom I consider a friend. > Wow. The stuff I miss while filtering C:\DERP>. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 14:32:05 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:32:05 -0400 Subject: Guys. Message-ID: Don't feed the troll. It's simple. If this list is run like any other I've been on, the troll will be gone soon anyway. - Dave From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 13 14:41:06 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:41:06 -0700 Subject: Adolescent behavior In-Reply-To: References: <1363200775.19186.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140CC62.6000605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6E99132B-425E-48A1-BEF3-D7055485D433@shiresoft.com> Can we please just STOP! TTFN - Guy On Mar 13, 2013, at 12:30 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man >> whom I consider a friend. >> > Wow. The stuff I miss while filtering C:\DERP>. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 14:46:09 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:46:09 +0100 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363202425.98559.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363202425.98559.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Yes Chuck I enjoyed and appreciate your inputs over the years also. But there's just too much going wrong with the fucking world to just sit idly by. That's the price that has to be payed I guess. > Thanks for the kind words though. Bound to be a lot more then I'll get from anyone else. I agree that a lot is wrong with this world. One of these things is Christians forgetting love and embracing judgment. Nowhere in the example Jesus set can I find any justification for this kind of vicious, hurtful attack on a fellow human being. If it were justified , I would rather be an atheist than a selfrighteous christian. Camiel From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 14:51:21 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:51:21 -0400 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <5140CC62.6000605@neurotica.com> References: <1363200775.19186.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140CC62.6000605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5140D8B9.1020604@neurotica.com> I apologize to the list for this outburst. Shitboy really pissed me off. It was a knee-jerk reaction. -Dave On 03/13/2013 02:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man > whom I consider a friend. > > You don't have to do what I tell you. I'm quite certain your days on > this list are numbered. One does not say shit like that and get away > with it. > > And as for my "little threat"...show up. Make my day. > > Fucking dirtbag. > > -Dave > > On 03/13/2013 02:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't >> have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. >> >> And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. >> Truly adolescent besides little man. >> >> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave >> McGuire wrote: >> >>> >>> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >>> >>> NOW. >>> >>> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >>> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >>> >>> Jackass. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue >>>> the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >>>> >>>> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have >>>> their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of >>>> cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably >>>> uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who >>>> wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT >>>> IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A >>>> whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people >>>> get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a >>>> vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending >>>> some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just >>>> might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with >>>> explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those >>>> words. >>>> >>>> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. >>>> You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos >>>> who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that >>>> want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go >>>> to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT >>>> Brian Knittel wrote: >>>> >>>> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney >>>> Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the >>>> person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. >>>> >>>> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >>>> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the >>>> childish rants or not. >>>> >>>> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any >>>> effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, >>>> barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 15:00:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:00:07 -0400 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363202150.98201.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363202150.98201.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5140DAC7.4000104@neurotica.com> Like I said: "Show up". Otherwise...*plonk* On 03/13/2013 03:15 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > I live in New Jersey where you're from little tough guy. You know the way. And what do I care who's your friend??? I'm supposed to continuously abide by the attacks against me, and your threats little punk. I don't think your enough man to take me on. Not that I find your petty threat the least bit credible. How pathetic. > > Yes little man you've given them enough reason for them to ban me. Congratulations for throwing gasoline on the match, from the getgo. > > ------------------------------ > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:58 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man >> whom I consider a friend. >> >> You don't have to do what I tell you. I'm quite certain your days on >> this list are numbered. One does not say shit like that and get away >> with it. >> >> And as for my "little threat"...show up. Make my day. >> >> Fucking dirtbag. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 03/13/2013 02:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't >>> have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. >>> >>> And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. >>> Truly adolescent besides little man. >>> >>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave >>> McGuire wrote: >>> >>> >>> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >>> >>> NOW. >>> >>> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >>> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >>> >>> Jackass. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue >>>> the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >>>> >>>> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have >>>> their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of >>>> cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably >>>> uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who >>>> wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT >>>> IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A >>>> whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people >>>> get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a >>>> vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending >>>> some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just >>>> might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with >>>> explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those >>>> words. >>>> >>>> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. >>>> You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos >>>> who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that >>>> want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go >>>> to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT >>>> Brian Knittel wrote: >>>> >>>> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney >>>> Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the >>>> person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. >>>> >>>> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >>>> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the >>>> childish rants or not. >>>> >>>> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any >>>> effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, >>>> barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 15:12:48 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363205568.1536.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You're supposed to embrace love and worthwhile judgment. People cherry pick what suits them from the bible and ignore the rest. You've never read it. You don't have a clue. VICIOUS ATTACK??!! Someone threatens me publicly. Did I threaten anyone??? What the hell is said or going to be done about the threats issued??? NOTHING. And if I were inclined to take it the least bit seriously, I'd do something. Little big mouth. You can also go to Hell Dave. Talking crap like that could get you in a lot of trouble real quick. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 12:46 PM PDT Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >On Wednesday, March 13, 2013, Chris Tofu >wrote: >> >> Yes Chuck I enjoyed and appreciate your inputs over the years also. But >there's just too much going wrong with the fucking world to just sit idly >by. That's the price that has to be payed I guess. >> Thanks for the kind words though. Bound to be a lot more then I'll get >from anyone else. > >I agree that a lot is wrong with this world. One of these things is >Christians forgetting love and embracing judgment. Nowhere in the >example Jesus set can I find any justification for this kind of vicious, >hurtful attack on a fellow human being. If it were justified , I would >rather be an atheist than a selfrighteous christian. > >Camiel From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 15:13:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363205630.65613.BPMail_high_carrier@web121401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Emphasis on jerk, which you probably do a lot of. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 12:51 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > I apologize to the list for this outburst. Shitboy really pissed me >off. It was a knee-jerk reaction. > > -Dave > >On 03/13/2013 02:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man >> whom I consider a friend. >> >> You don't have to do what I tell you. I'm quite certain your days on >> this list are numbered. One does not say shit like that and get away >> with it. >> >> And as for my "little threat"...show up. Make my day. >> >> Fucking dirtbag. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 03/13/2013 02:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't >> have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. >> >> And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. >> Truly adolescent besides little man. >> >> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave >> McGuire wrote: >> >>> >>> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >>> >>> NOW. >>> >>> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >>> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >>> >>> Jackass. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> >>> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue >>> the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >>> >>> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have >>> their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of >>> cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably >>> uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who >>> wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT >>> IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A >>> whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people >>> get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a >>> vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending >>> some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just >>> might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with >>> explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those >>> words. >>> >>> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. >>> You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos >>> who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that >>> want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go >>> to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >>> >>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT >>> Brian Knittel wrote: >>> >>> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney >>> Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the >>> person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. >>> >>> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >>> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the >>> childish rants or not. >>> >>> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any >>> effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, >>> barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA >> >> >> > > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From lists at loomcom.com Wed Mar 13 15:15:24 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:15:24 -0400 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> <20130312210057.GA20434@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20130313201524.GA27632@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:25:23AM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <20130312210057.GA20434 at mail.loomcom.com>, > Seth Morabito writes: > > > Seeing this getting sold on eBay just makes me sick. Sigh. > > Yeah, much better to see it ground up into scrap. Of course that's not at all what I meant. I'm just sad to see a collection that took so much time and effort to put together get picked apart like this. That's all. -Seth From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Mar 13 15:17:43 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:17:43 -0500 Subject: Adolescent behavior In-Reply-To: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03779110-903D-43E6-8188-700D34605CA6@lunar-tokyo.net> On Mar 13, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. Oh, goody! A Real Christian! Maybe you can answer a question I have: Please show me the list of exceptions to John 3:16! It says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Obviously there's a secret list of exceptions, you know, all the people God hates? Some people tell me God hates blacks, and some people tell me God hates gays, and some say Jews? It's like they all have different lists! Everyone seems to have a list except for me, I can't find it anywhere. Can you please enlighten me? Every time I ask a Real Christian for the list, they run away or point to something else. I just want to make sure I'm hating all the right people! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 15:35:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:35:19 -0400 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363205568.1536.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363205568.1536.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5140E307.5090308@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 04:12 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > VICIOUS ATTACK??!! Someone threatens me publicly. Did I threaten > anyone??? What the hell is said or going to be done about the threats > issued??? NOTHING. And if I were inclined to take it the least bit > seriously, I'd do something. Little big mouth. You can also go to > Hell Dave. Talking crap like that could get you in a lot of trouble > real quick. I'm quakin' in my boots. Mommy please help me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Wed Mar 13 15:35:54 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:35:54 -0500 Subject: fun things with electronics, and Contests Message-ID: <00f001ce202a$5c048b40$140da1c0$@com> http://www.instructables.com/contest/ Lots of interesting stuff, including ways to introduce electronics to youngsters. There is even one contest just for youth. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 13 15:41:26 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:41:26 -0400 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced References: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> <20130312210057.GA20434@mail.loomcom.com> <20130313201524.GA27632@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Morabito" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:15 PM Subject: Re: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced >* On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:25:23AM -0600, Richard >wrote: >> >> In article <20130312210057.GA20434 at mail.loomcom.com>, >> Seth Morabito writes: >> >> > Seeing this getting sold on eBay just makes me sick. Sigh. >> >> Yeah, much better to see it ground up into scrap. > > Of course that's not at all what I meant. I'm just sad to see a > collection that took so much time and effort to put together get picked > apart like this. That's all. > > -Seth Pretty much every collection has that happen when the owner dies or fall on hard times. At least some of it will go on in another persons collection. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 15:42:47 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:42:47 -0400 Subject: Adolescent behavior In-Reply-To: <03779110-903D-43E6-8188-700D34605CA6@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <1363199236.15130.BPMail_high_carrier@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03779110-903D-43E6-8188-700D34605CA6@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <5140E4C7.5010603@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 04:17 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. > > Oh, goody! A Real Christian! Maybe you can answer a question I have: > > Please show me the list of exceptions to John 3:16! It says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." > > Obviously there's a secret list of exceptions, you know, all the people God hates? Some people tell me God hates blacks, and some people tell me God hates gays, and some say Jews? It's like they all have different lists! Everyone seems to have a list except for me, I can't find it anywhere. Can you please enlighten me? Every time I ask a Real Christian for the list, they run away or point to something else. > > I just want to make sure I'm hating all the right people! ROFL! Nicely put! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robin at hx-20.com Wed Mar 13 15:46:48 2013 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:46:48 -0000 Subject: Flextra BR-3020 or BR-3225 25/50MB Floppy Drive Message-ID: On 03/12/2013 09:29 AM, Robin England wrote: > Does anyone have a Brier Technology BR-3020 or BR-3225 high capacity floppy drive I could borrow please? >Wouldn't an Insite I325VM work just as well if reading is your object? >I suspect that there are far more of them than the Brier units. >--Chuck Thanks Chuck. Do you know for sure that the I325VM can read the Flextra 25MB discs? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 15:48:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <1363207695.87193.BPMail_high_carrier@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> LOL why would I go to you!! You still have family hear as I recall little bow wow. Another little cowardly punk with a big mouth from New Jersey. Get in your car and put your money where your mouth is. I don't threaten people Dave. I happen to be 6'4" and MY threats tend to be taken much more seriously. Besides it just being ugly. And you not only want to do me harm, you want to humiliate me on my own property. I have never spoken to anyone like that in my life. You can judge a person's character by how they treat their enemies even little creep. And until today we had no problem with one another. Is Brian gay? Why did he have to take this all up once again a day later?? How many times do I have to listen to people TELLING everyone else to iggy me? How much of that would you put up with? And I won't apologize for a single word. Did one person, besides Doc in a way, say anything about Liam's comments. But your little buddy had to draw attention ONCE AGAIN to what I said, where I specifically targeted NO ONE. Yet repeatedly I was attacked, then threatened. Enough was enough. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 1:00 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > Like I said: "Show up". > > Otherwise...*plonk* > >On 03/13/2013 03:15 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> >> I live in New Jersey where you're from little tough guy. You know the way. And what do I care who's your friend??? I'm supposed to continuously abide by the attacks against me, and your threats little punk. I don't think your enough man to take me on. Not that I find your petty threat the least bit credible. How pathetic. >> >> Yes little man you've given them enough reason for them to ban me. Congratulations for throwing gasoline on the match, from the getgo. >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:58 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> >> What's angering me is the unbelievable shit you just spewed at a man >> whom I consider a friend. >> >> You don't have to do what I tell you. I'm quite certain your days on >> this list are numbered. One does not say shit like that and get away >> with it. >> >> And as for my "little threat"...show up. Make my day. >> >> Fucking dirtbag. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 03/13/2013 02:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> What's angering you at this point, I don't know. Regardless you don't >>> have the authority to ban me, nor tell me what to do. >>> >>> And as for your little threat, not likely Dave. Not very likely. >>> Truly adolescent besides little man. >>> >>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 11:43 AM PDT Dave >>> McGuire wrote: >>> >>> >>> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >>> >>> NOW. >>> >>> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >>> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >>> >>> Jackass. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> On 03/13/2013 02:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> >>> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue >>> the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. >>> >>> Are you as disturbed when parents have no choice but to have >>> their children's impressionable minds addled with exhibitions of >>> cross dressers? What about little girls who are understandably >>> uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a screwed up little boy who >>> wants to think he's a girl??? AND ARE THREATENED WITH PUNISHMENT >>> IF THEY DARE COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Does that bother you as much??? A >>> whole freaking day later you're still wining???!!! Why do people >>> get so blown out by a little comment??? if I'm required to be a >>> vegetable that has to walk on egg shells for fear of offending >>> some little deviant, let the mods ban my account. Which just >>> might speak volumes, seeing numerous individuals spout off with >>> explitives, but "fag" or "homo", oh no don't ever utter those >>> words. >>> >>> And in the interim Brian, go strait to Hell where you belong. >>> You and the rest of the FAGS, the ACLU, and all the other weirdos >>> who defend and promote diseased, aberrant behavior. Those that >>> want to victimise the most vulnerable amongst us. Go to Hell, go >>> to Hell, go to Hell. And yes I though it was necessary. >>> >>> ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 10:46 AM PDT >>> Brian Knittel wrote: >>> >>> The list member's "homos" comment is in addition to the "Barney >>> Fag" comment a few weeks ago. I put in a filter to delete the >>> person at that time so didn't see the most recent example. >>> >>> Recognizing that we're dealing with an adolescent boy, the best >>> response is to ignore him, whether the post is one of the >>> childish rants or not. >>> >>> No comment or argument from this group is going to have any >>> effect other than to please him. A filter makes this very easy, >>> barring that, just don't reply to anything. Simple. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> > > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Wed Mar 13 15:50:08 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:50:08 -0500 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! Message-ID: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/tubes.htm _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Mar 13 15:58:24 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:58:24 -0500 Subject: Everything abt vacuum tubes, plans, lessons, cross ref, extending their life, etc. Message-ID: <010201ce202d$80b696b0$8223c410$@com> http://ebookbrowse.com/lesson-60-vacuum-tubes-used-in-transmitting-pdf-d3112 23117 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Mar 13 16:01:01 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:01:01 -0500 Subject: Vacuum tube and semiconductor cross ref and current replacements Message-ID: <010701ce202d$de0dda30$9a298e90$@com> http://www.worldtubecompany.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=TSL _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 16:01:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior Message-ID: <1363208505.63397.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> O God they're coming out of the woodwork now. Of course there's exceptions. The exceptions have to do with those who persist in violating God's will. I don't know who told you it's biblical to hate blacks or Jews. That's just straw nonsense to allude to some extraneous notions that have absolutely zero to do with scripture. Why do people focus on some demented hillbilly's words, when there are millions and millions of Christians who don't say any such thing??? Jesus was a Jew who's cross is alleged to have been carried by a black dude named Simon. Phillip baptized someone from Africa in Acts. Please tell me what you're talking about. But you see those are the times we live in. People love confusion apparently. It's far better to spout nonsense or actively promote abberant behavior. And confuse children so they can grow up and hate truth and decency. And wind up with communicable diseases. I'll respectfully continue this conversation privately (or on another forum of your choosing) Daniel. I live for it. ------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 1:17 PM PDT Daniel Seagraves wrote: > >On Mar 13, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Who's exhibiting adolescent behavior but the people who continue the bleating 24 hours nearly after the issue is resolved. > >Oh, goody! A Real Christian! Maybe you can answer a question I have: > >Please show me the list of exceptions to John 3:16! It says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." > >Obviously there's a secret list of exceptions, you know, all the people God hates? Some people tell me God hates blacks, and some people tell me God hates gays, and some say Jews? It's like they all have different lists! Everyone seems to have a list except for me, I can't find it anywhere. Can you please enlighten me? Every time I ask a Real Christian for the list, they run away or point to something else. > >I just want to make sure I'm hating all the right people! > > From sales at elecplus.com Wed Mar 13 16:18:01 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:18:01 -0500 Subject: All about CRT tubes, and HP semiconductor PN cross ref Message-ID: <010c01ce2030$3e2fc480$ba8f4d80$@com> http://www.hparchive.com/Bench_Briefs/HP-Bench-Briefs-1981-03-05.pdf Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 13 16:20:42 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:20:42 -0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <009801ce2030$a2628e10$e727aa30$@ntlworld.com> > > But a Mod has had a quiet word and I will try very hard to remember to > refrain from ever mentioning religion on ClassicCmp again. That is very disappointing, how can we ever talk about our favourite editors now? Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 13 16:04:42 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:04:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS4100 IC In-Reply-To: <11929D16-55BB-47C2-B972-F89BBA8F64B4@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 12, 13 06:19:38 pm Message-ID: > > Idle curiousity, does anyone happen to know whether the TMS4100 ROM > was a standard off-the-shelf character generator from TI, or was it a > generic mask-ROM-to-customer-order, or otherwise have data on it such > as it's native size. The 1976 'Memroy and Microprocessor Databook' (Texas Instruemnts) lists a TMS4102 Cheracter Gerneator. Like the one in the HP9830, it reads out a column at a time, and has the same pinout. I will give the pinout fro mthe databook in a minute. The difference seems to be that the TMS4103 is specified as having 'Inputs and Outputs Fully TTL compatible) while the inputs o ntne TMS4100 seem to be 12V levels. The HP9830 Dispaly Driver PCB (09830-66542) drives them with high voltabge open-collector buffers ('145 and '07), pulled up to 12V via a 1k2 resistor. Anyway, the pinout of the TMS4103 (and I used this when reverse-engineering the HP9830) is : ----- O1 -| U |- I7 NC -| |- I1 O2 -| |- I2 NC -| |- I3 O3 -| |- I4 NC -| |- I5 O4 -| |- CE NC -| |- CD O5 -| |- CC NC -| |- CB O6 -| |- CA NC -| |- Vss O7 -| |- I6 Vdd -| |- Vgg ----- Where : I1-I6 = Binary-encoded chracter inputs (64 different chracters) I7 = Chip eneable input (active high) CA-CE = Column select inputs, 1-of-5 encoded O1-O7 = Data output Vdd,Vss,Vgg = power/ground/bias Unforutnately there is only 1 page of data on it in the book and it doesn't give the paterns for the characters. The data sheet is dated May 1975 (after hte design of the HP9830, of course). > > Full id: > TMS4100 > ZA 5705 > T-04163 > 7308 <-- date code > > It's the character generator in the HP9830, arranged for character > column scanning order rather than row scanning (7-bits columns at the > outputs rather than 5-bit rows). > > I see three possibilities: > - the TI TMS4100 is a character generator ROM > - it's a TI TMS 4100 mask ROM, programmed and sold by TI as a > character gen > - it's a TI TMS 4100 mask ROM, programmed to order for HP My _guess_ is that the TMS4100 is a standrd character generator ROM and the TSM4103 is an imporved version with TTL-compatible inputs. The ratehr odd address inpout (1-of-5 colum select, for example) seems to suggst it's not a standard ROM device (I would epxpect fully bianry coded address inputso n such a device). If yuo need to replace it, do watch for those 12V levels. it's very easy to covert abck to 5V levels, (jsut change where the pull-ups go to) but you may not want to make too many changes to the board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 13 16:07:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <513FEDCA.3040903@gmail.com> from "mc68010" at Mar 12, 13 08:08:58 pm Message-ID: > > I have been reading conflicting information on these. Is the VAX 8800 > console just a DEC Pro 380 with an extra real time interface card or a > modified Pro 380 ? I guess the gist is can the ones sold as 8800 > consoles be used as regular Pro 380 ? AFAIK it's a standard Pro with the (standard, but uncommon elsewhere) Realtime I/O board in the cardcage and special softare installed. I was given a Pro350 that I was told had been a VAX 8xxx console. The realtiem I/O board had been removed (but was with the machine). It seems to behave like any other Pro350. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 13 15:45:19 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:45:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <201303122208.SAA09301@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 12, 13 06:08:03 pm Message-ID: > What's the big deal? You want to change something, you pull the > relevant cards out of the deck, punch replacements, put 'em in, and > you're done. And there was I thinking you needed a soldering iron and a box of 1N4148s.... -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 13 16:38:11 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <5140E307.5090308@neurotica.com> References: <1363205568.1536.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140E307.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/13/2013 04:12 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> VICIOUS ATTACK??!! Someone threatens me publicly. Did I threaten >> anyone??? What the hell is said or going to be done about the threats >> issued??? NOTHING. And if I were inclined to take it the least bit >> seriously, I'd do something. Little big mouth. You can also go to >> Hell Dave. Talking crap like that could get you in a lot of trouble >> real quick. > > I'm quakin' in my boots. Mommy please help me. > Hey guys, how about we not let the troll cause any more turmoil on the list. Jay will stop by at some point and ban him and we can move on. tnx. -gene -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From js at cimmeri.com Wed Mar 13 16:56:12 2013 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:56:12 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Subject: > Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large > Items Via UPS > From: > Dave McGuire > Date: > Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:43:03 -0400 > > To: > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. > > NOW. > > I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere > nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. > > Jackass. > > -Dave Felony assault as a response to some zealot's silly, harmless words? You think this display of an excessively self-important ego demonstrates what a "better man" is? Talk about appalling, crude behavior. /"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -- /Isaac Asimov From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 17:03:57 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:03:57 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/tubes.htm Nice. I have a few old 12V tubes (NOS from a science lab that was decomissioned a few years back that had some parts going back to the mid-1950s - ancient carbon composite resistors and all). I'm looking at that 12V battery-powered headphone amp project as an easy get-started project. I think I have everything on hand except the tube socket. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 13 18:08:26 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:08:26 -0800 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) Message-ID: Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some point in the future. A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 17:17:25 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:17:25 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> TECO for two please. > > 029! I'd have to upgrade (I only have an 026). -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 13 17:40:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130313153854.V81874@shell.lmi.net> > > What's the big deal? You want to change something, you pull the > > relevant cards out of the deck, punch replacements, put 'em in, and > > you're done. On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > And there was I thinking you needed a soldering iron and a box of 1N4148s.... rearranging and/or adding cards in a deck is not the same as rearranging and/or adding cards in a DEC. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 17:49:06 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:49:06 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <009801ce2030$a2628e10$e727aa30$@ntlworld.com> References: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> <009801ce2030$a2628e10$e727aa30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 13 March 2013 21:20, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >> But a Mod has had a quiet word and I will try very hard to remember to >> refrain from ever mentioning religion on ClassicCmp again. > > That is very disappointing, how can we ever talk about our favourite editors > now? :?) That seems like fair game to me. If I had to tip in on that one - MS-DOS EDIT.EXE. :?D Although I have been playing with ErgoEmacs recently and it makes more sense than any other "classic era" editor I've ever seen has... http://ergoemacs.org/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 17:49:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:49:53 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> References: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <51410291.9060404@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 05:56 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >> >> NOW. >> >> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >> >> Jackass. > > Felony assault as a response to some zealot's silly, harmless words? > You think this display of an excessively self-important ego demonstrates > what a "better man" is? Talk about appalling, crude behavior. You're hardly one to talk...You're the guy who got thrown off of a different mailing list for picking fights in very much the same way, with ME if you recall. > /"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -- /Isaac Asimov I think Mr. Asimov had something a bit different in mind. If someone attacked HIS friend, I'm sure he'd stand up in defense as well. I'm sorry if that concept is lost on you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 17:50:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363205568.1536.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140E307.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1363215019.8513.YahooMailNeo@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> O don't worry. I won't be posting here after today. Let the despicable little atheists and their kin, those w/o any integrity whatsoever, have their way. And never is there a worthwhile response to anything I've said. Truly zombie territory. Funny though how so much is let go on the list, but other things are let go. People can harass repeatedly, and threaten and nothing is said. You can have your list. ________________________________ From: geneb To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/13/2013 04:12 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> VICIOUS ATTACK??!! Someone threatens me publicly. Did I threaten >> anyone??? What the hell is said or going to be done about the threats >> issued??? NOTHING. And if I were inclined to take it the least bit >> seriously, I'd do something. Little big mouth. You can also go to >> Hell Dave. Talking crap like that could get you in a lot of trouble >> real quick. > >? I'm quakin' in my boots.? Mommy please help me. > Hey guys, how about we not let the troll cause any more turmoil on the list.? Jay will stop by at some point and ban him and we can move on. tnx. -gene -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:01:44 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:01:44 -0700 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip Message-ID: Hey all -- This'll probably rank as a "duh" moment for most of you but I thought I'd share (mostly because it amused me): I was trying to figure out why the unregulated 8VDC line of my SWTPC 6800's power supply kept dipping so suddenly under moderate load (and why it would keep falling and falling as long as I left it running that way...) The overall behavior was: - Power up with minimal load (just the motherboard w/it's onboard regulator): 8V line was fine at about 8.7V. - Add up to two RAM cards and the 8V was still at around 8.3 or so. - Add a third card and 8V drops to 6.5V and continues to drop steadily over time. This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the fuse (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting brighter. Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned :). Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses carefully. - Josh From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Mar 13 18:02:10 2013 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:02:10 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 Mar 2013, at 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum > tubes? They can get gassy. If the getters aren't nice and shiny the tube is gone; if the are it still makes sense (especially on things that run with significant B+) to bring them up on heater only and let them bake for a while. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 18:03:57 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> References: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1363215837.30574.YahooMailNeo@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "js at cimmeri.com" > From: > Dave McGuire > Date: > Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:43:03 -0400 > > To: > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. > > NOW. > > I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere > nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. > > Jackass. > > -Dave Felony assault as a response to some zealot's silly, harmless words?? ? You think this display of an excessively self-important ego demonstrates what a "better man" is?? ? Talk about appalling, crude behavior. /"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -- /Isaac Asimov C: It's rather sad too. I liked Dave McGuire (LOL I had to corect the Q I mistakenly put where the G belongs - I figured I'd better not!). If anyone were to back me up in the past, not that I was looking for any back up, he would be as likely as anyone basically. But it takes a little pressure for people to show their true colors. It's not that every last single person from New Jersey is a cowardly worthless little big mouthed punk. But in the 20 years I've lived here, it's really hard to find one single person of character. Sad I know, but put in your time and you might understand.That's why I'm leaving. My mother has an elderly next door neighbor who's lived here all her life and often screams on her front lawn "IT'S THE MOST CORRUPT STATE IN? THE WHOLE COUNTRY!!". ?Brian should have kept his little trap shut. He didn't earn any additional clout on account of being an author. I couldn't take anymore. I don't feel inclined to apologize (do I get any apologies?), after all I'm not the arbiter of who does or doesn't wind up on the wrong side of the Judgment (and if that makes me a zealot - GUILTY!). Telling someone to go to Hell doesn't mean it's destined, or they have to. A constant barrage of niggling little retards who can't BUT call attention to a silly word can bring that out of someone sometimes. Unfortunately. God forbid someone should utter those words. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 13 18:07:32 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> References: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Subject: >> Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items >> Via UPS >> From: >> Dave McGuire >> Date: >> Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:43:03 -0400 >> >> To: >> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> >> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >> >> NOW. >> >> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >> >> Jackass. >> >> -Dave > > Felony assault as a response to some zealot's silly, harmless words? You > think this display of an excessively self-important ego demonstrates what a > "better man" is? Talk about appalling, crude behavior. > What do you expect? The neighbors would get annoyed if he used a daisy cutter. Fisticuffs can be good excercise, too. > /"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -- /Isaac Asimov The funny thing is, the only time I ever see this quite is from the guy that lost the fight. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:10:22 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:10:22 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? Are > these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about > until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some > point in the future. Temperature extremes are really not a problem, simply because they are made for such extremes during normal operation. Moisture can be a problem in extreme cases, but normally not much of an issue either - mostly the boxes suffer (and metal tubes, I suppose). The only thing that really is bad for tubes is salt spray. Don't store your tubes in a seaside shack. -- Will From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 13 18:14:10 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:14:10 -0700 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: References: <513D725F.3080500@sydex.com> <20130312210057.GA20434@mail.loomcom.com> <20130313201524.GA27632@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <51410842.8010102@jwsss.com> On 3/13/2013 1:41 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > - > Pretty much every collection has that happen when the owner dies or > fall on hard times. At least some of it will go on in another persons > collection. > This was not either of those circumstances, unless you call unethical and possibly illegal behavior toward the individual "hard times". I am hopeful most can own the place they store their collections or can at least have some real control. renting can result in what happened in this case. and, yes, I have to rent. jim From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 13 18:22:23 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:22:23 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51410A2F.7060205@jwsss.com> On 3/13/2013 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum > tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and > forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and > expect to get more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. > > Zane > > > A lot of them have traces of cesium or other odd agents that were used to absorb the last bits of O2 after the vacuum was applied. they otherwise are glass, copper, steel, and micah, and other odd materials which should not age much. I'd be careful of storing them to rattle around for fear of damage. Also though you can peer thru the glass at the insides some of them can be hard to figure out the number of in 40 or 60 years of storage, so make sure that you keep them such that their legends don't get rubbed off in storage. Some of them will have the numbers applied to the glass via some process that really is indelible short of breaking the glass, and I've seen some with some sort of white ink that didn't last the lifetime of the tube (was messed up when I took it out in the 60's) Luckily in some cases you can read the chassis to determine the numbers. Do you have a tester stored with the tubes? Do you have them sorted by NOS vs. pulls? that is about the only other thing to think about. and the other bits, capacitors and other parts won't age as well as the tubes if you have bought and stored them. Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 13 18:22:55 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:22:55 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130313153854.V81874@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130313153854.V81874@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 13, at 3:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What's the big deal? You want to change something, you pull the >>> relevant cards out of the deck, punch replacements, put 'em in, and >>> you're done. > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> And there was I thinking you needed a soldering iron and a box of >> 1N4148s.... > > rearranging and/or adding cards in a deck is not the same as > rearranging and/or adding cards in a DEC. > You're all wrong .. editing is properly accomplished by rearranging the plugboard wires. Punch cards are for data not programs. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 13 18:26:15 2013 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:26:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? In-Reply-To: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Tofu To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2013, 20:13 Subject: Re: anyone got a TRS-80 model 4P for parts/repair? > > Where have you been anyway? And where's Andrew ("aliensrcool")? Are those of you with A's > as their first letter too Aloof to hang out with us?? > I'm here, but I only send messages to the list if I need help with something, or have something worthwhile to add to a currently discussed topic. (Plus I currently have a backlog of 3000 emails going back to around October 2012) If you mean in real life, I'm too busy with work and other projects right now. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:27:27 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:27:27 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: <5140039C.5050101@gmail.com> References: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140039C.5050101@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I once bought a Jornada for no other reason than to impress the woman I was > out on a lunch date with. I think I used it twice. It was the dotcom days. I > had more money than sense. I still have the stupid thing in a drawer > somewhere. The date went ok though. Met $cutegirl at concert. Chatted, shared laughs. Good signs. Outside later, walking to our separate cars, I dare to ask for a phone #. It was offered. Huzzah. Pull out PDA (thinking back to what year this should have been, probably a Handspring Visor,) prepare to take down the digits. $cutegirl notices PDA. "Ohh, my mom has one of those!" I think this is where the kids paste the "forever alone" guy in their thread. (I did get her number, though.) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 13 18:27:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:27:46 -0700 Subject: Flextra BR-3020 or BR-3225 25/50MB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51410B72.1020109@sydex.com> On 03/13/2013 01:46 PM, Robin England wrote: > On 03/12/2013 09:29 AM, Robin England wrote: >> Does anyone have a Brier Technology BR-3020 or BR-3225 high >> capacity floppy drive I could borrow please? > >> Wouldn't an Insite I325VM work just as well if reading is your >> object? I suspect that there are far more of them than the Brier >> units. > >> --Chuck > > Thanks Chuck. Do you know for sure that the I325VM can read the > Flextra 25MB discs? No, unfortunately, I can't say for certain Two companies, both in San Jose (wasn't Insite on "Fortran Drive"?) offering similar capacities using similar techniques at about the same time. The 25MB, as I understand it is "unformatted' capacity, so both drives are fairly close in advertised capacity. Both use zoned recording and RLL, but beyond that I can only say that the Insite devices are/were more common and so probably worth a shot. IIRC, Insite also trademarked the term "floptical"... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 18:30:04 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:30:04 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51410BFC.2090604@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 07:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? > Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten > about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get > more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. Just don't break them (and they're tougher than they look) and they'll be fine. I have tubes that I've stored pretty much like that, from attic to basement to storage locker...since I was a kid, some of them I took out of junked TVs 35 years ago, and I use them for repairs today. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 13 18:31:14 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:31:14 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51410C42.3000103@sydex.com> On 03/13/2013 04:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? > Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten > about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get > more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. Nothing that I'm aware of eats vacuum tubes--and I've got some pre-WWII stuff that's still ticking right along. I'd be careful with excess moisture if I had a bunch of old lighthouse tubes or any other oddball metal-to-glas stuff. But, aside from mechanical shock, tubes are about as inert as one can get. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:38:35 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:38:35 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 13, 2013, at 19:08, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. Other than "be careful with them", not much. I like to wrap mine in paper, preferably wax paper; it keeps its shape well, which keeps the little nubbins on top of the miniature noval tubes from fracturing. Take the same care when transporting as you would with expensive light bulbs. If any still have the cartons, I like to keep them in there (wrapped in paper to immobilize). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:42:26 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:42:26 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> Message-ID: On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > wrote: >> http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/tubes.htm > > Nice. I have a few old 12V tubes (NOS from a science lab that was > decomissioned a few years back that had some parts going back to the > mid-1950s - ancient carbon composite resistors and all). I'm looking > at that 12V battery-powered headphone amp project as an easy > get-started project. I think I have everything on hand except the > tube socket. If you need octal or noval ones, I have a few nice ceramic ones that I'd be glad to send one or two of. Otherwise, they're still relatively easy to find; I like triodeelectronics.com because they've done nicely by me in the past, but there are literally dozens of tube vendor sites out there. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:46:03 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:46:03 -0400 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a > 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently > when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned > :). Good thing to look out for! If I were to nitpick, though, I'd probably point out that it's not that the fuse is starting to draw a lot of current, but rather that it's starting to drop a lot of voltage as the I in the IV term of Ohm's law goes way above its intended range. The glowing is a tangential result (P = I^2*R). - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:51:04 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:51:04 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They can get gassy. If the getters aren't nice and shiny the tube is gone; if the are it still makes sense (especially on things that run with significant B+) to bring them up on heater only and let them bake for a while. There is very little you can do to prevent a tube going gassy, other than keeping it out of a corrosive environment, where corrosion on a pin can break the glass-metal seal. When a tube wants to go, it is generally going to go. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 13 18:51:03 2013 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:51:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PNG image decompression Message-ID: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi, I am in the process of working on a new Amiga game, but I have the graphics saved in .PNG format. I could convert them to the much easier to decompress .IFF format, but .PNG image save many more bytes (e.g image is 15KB saved as an .IFF vs. 9KB as a .PNG). I have sucessfully decoded all the easy stuff, but am currently trying to decode the IDAT chunk (where the image data is stored). The format of the data is defined as follows (straight out of the RFC1951 Deflate Compression document available online): ??? 5 Bits: HLIT, # of Literal/Length codes - 257 (257 - 286) ??? 5 Bits: HDIST, # of Distance codes - 1 (1 - 32) ??? 4 Bits: HCLEN, # of Code Length codes - 4 (4 - 19) ??? (HCLEN + 4) x 3 bits: code lengths for the code length ??? alphabet given just above, in the order: 16, 17, 18, ??? 0, 8, 7, 9, 6, 10, 5, 11, 4, 12, 3, 13, 2, 14, 1, 15 ??? These code lengths are interpreted as 3-bit integers ??? (0-7); as above, a code length of 0 means the ??? corresponding symbol (literal/length or distance code ??? length) is not used. ??? HLIT + 257 code lengths for the literal/length alphabet, ??? encoded using the code length Huffman code ??? HDIST + 1 code lengths for the distance alphabet, ??? encoded using the code length Huffman code ??? The actual compressed data of the block, ??? encoded using the literal/length and distance Huffman ??? codes ??? The literal/length symbol 256 (end of data), ??? encoded using the literal/length Huffman code. All the documents I found online either say use the zlib library or point to the RFC1951 document :( Does anyone know how to decode the literal / length (HLIT) and distance codes (HDIST)? Huffman compression was always something I found hard, but it seemed much easier after finding this page online: http://www.cs.duke.edu/csed/poop/huff/info/ Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 13 18:52:55 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:52:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi ???? I still use tubes (aka valves in UK) as they are still the best way to produce lots of power from HF thru?to SHF. The most common small types are metal/glass or all glass octal (8 pin base) eg 6V6, 6L6 and all glass envelope B7G base types. The metal envelope type are of US military origin and fairly rugged.? The pins are best kept clean so push them into suitable material. The all glass B7G type are weak at the top where?the? vacuum takeoff was removed and at the bottom where the pins exit the glass. They do not take kindly to rattling around loose. ? RF power valves are usually much bigger and both glass and?ceramic/metal types exist.? If you can get access a valve tester then you can weed out the duds. ? Finally most valves / tubes?need voltages that can spoil the rest of your life. If you have not worked with high voltages then tubes are probably not for you. ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org? Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 23:08 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes?? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about until needed?? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some point in the future. A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com? ? ? ? ? ? ? | OpenVMS Enthusiast? ? ? ? | |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | Photographer? ? ? ? ? ? ? | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My flickr Photostream? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |? ? ? ? ? http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/? ? ? ? ? | |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My Photography Website? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.zanesphotography.com/? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:56:51 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:56:51 +0000 Subject: Does anyone know Message-ID: <1185803031-1363219007-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-894735741-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Btw Doc, (if you get this). It may be a difference in subscribing to the moderated cctech list instead of the cctalk. Cctech is supposed to only include on topic chatter. Although you'd miss all the hilarious comments and flame wars. ------Original Message------ From: Doc Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Does anyone know Sent: Mar 13, 2013 12:15 AM On 3/12/13 6:51 PM, Rob wrote: > On 12 March 2013 21:56, Doc Shipley wrote: >> How to unsubscribe? >> >> Yes, I've been to www.classiccmp.org and hit the "Unsubscribe" button. >> Repeatedly. > > Try email cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with a subject of "unsubscribe" Well now I feel dumb as a box of rocks.... I used to know that. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 19:00:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:00:22 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <1363215837.30574.YahooMailNeo@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5140F5FC.7010808@cimmeri.com> <1363215837.30574.YahooMailNeo@web121404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51411316.4070803@neurotica.com> Will someone PLEASE get rid of this twat? On 03/13/2013 07:03 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "js at cimmeri.com" > >> From: >> Dave McGuire >> Date: >> Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:43:03 -0400 >> >> To: >> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> >> Ok, THAT'S IT. Get the FUCK off of this list. >> >> NOW. >> >> I would beat the living daylights out of you if you were anywhere >> nearby. On your front lawn, in front of your wife. >> >> Jackass. >> >> -Dave > > Felony assault as a response to some zealot's silly, harmless words? > You think this display of an excessively self-important ego demonstrates > what a "better man" is? Talk about appalling, crude behavior. > > /"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -- /Isaac Asimov > > C: It's rather sad too. I liked Dave McGuire (LOL I had to corect the Q I mistakenly put where the G belongs - I figured I'd better not!). If anyone were to back me up in the past, not that I was looking for any back up, he would be as likely as anyone basically. But it takes a little pressure for people to show their true colors. It's not that every last single person from New Jersey is a cowardly worthless little big mouthed punk. But in the 20 years I've lived here, it's really hard to find one single person of character. Sad I know, but put in your time and you might understand.That's why I'm leaving. My mother has an elderly next door neighbor who's lived here all her life and often screams on her front lawn "IT'S THE MOST CORRUPT STATE IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY!!". > Brian should have kept his little trap shut. He didn't earn any additional clout on account of being an author. I couldn't take anymore. I don't feel inclined to apologize (do I get any apologies?), after all I'm not the arbiter of who does or doesn't wind up on the wrong side of the Judgment (and if that makes me a zealot - GUILTY!). Telling someone to go to Hell doesn't mean it's destined, or they have to. A constant barrage of niggling little retards who can't BUT call attention to a silly word can bring that out of someone sometimes. Unfortunately. God forbid someone should utter those words. > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 19:02:09 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:02:09 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> Message-ID: > Nice. I have a few old 12V tubes (NOS from a science lab that was > decomissioned a few years back that had some parts going back to the > mid-1950s - ancient carbon composite resistors and all). I'm looking > at that 12V battery-powered headphone amp project as an easy > get-started project. I think I have everything on hand except the > tube socket. What socket do you need? I have sockets. And, out of curiosity, when you talk about 12V tubes, do you mean the space charge types? -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 13 19:03:29 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:03:29 -0700 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 13, at 4:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > This'll probably rank as a "duh" moment for most of you but I > thought I'd > share (mostly because it amused me): > > I was trying to figure out why the unregulated 8VDC line of my > SWTPC 6800's > power supply kept dipping so suddenly under moderate load (and why > it would > keep falling and falling as long as I left it running that way...) > > The overall behavior was: > > - Power up with minimal load (just the motherboard w/it's onboard > regulator): 8V line was fine at about 8.7V. > - Add up to two RAM cards and the 8V was still at around 8.3 or so. > - Add a third card and 8V drops to 6.5V and continues to drop > steadily over > time. > > This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the > fuse > (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting > brighter. > > Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- > it was a > 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). > Apparently > when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson > learned > :). > > Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses > carefully. Interesting fault mode, but I wouldn't express that as the fuse "drawing a lot of current". That fuse should be the one in the +8V line and it looks like what was happening is your cards were drawing current just short of blowing the fuse. As the fuse filament heated up it's resistance increased, so more of the +8 supply voltage was dropping across the fuse, reducing the +8V output level. (Overall current should actually be going down). Yay, another SWTPC 6800 (I have one too). From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 13 19:07:32 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:07:32 -0700 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514114C4.8030905@jwsss.com> On 3/13/2013 4:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the fuse > (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting brighter. > > Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a > 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently > when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned If you had that behavior, it sounds like you were using a fusetron time delay fuse. The fuses will run at 100% overload indefinitely, handle 10x for a spike and blow greater than that. if you had one of the fuses w/o the slow blow, then it would have run for a while and then blown as well, but you don't get the more precise overload time delay on that type of fuse. The fusing element may blow by overload somewhere in the conductor, or with an overload, the solder at each end of the fuse envelope may fail and it will blow then. It is interesting that you saw a change in current going thru the fuse though, sort of indicates the fuse wasn't working so well. Also with that amount of heat into the phenolic fuse holder, you can probably expect it to be very fragile and fail at some point due to the spring load in it. I've seen fuse holders which didn't have glowing fuses, but overloaded ones fail that way. Never had one I knew first hand had an incandescent fuse in it though, that is a bit worrisome. jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 13 19:09:09 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:09:09 -0600 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51411525.90002@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/13/2013 5:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? > Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten > about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get > more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. They tend to get broken that way. You might have to pre-heat the tubes for a bit to have the getter clean up your vacuum but in general they work as good as new still. > Zane > Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 13 19:11:02 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303140011.UAA25576@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum > tubes? I have no special expertise. I would assume that as long as they stay sealed, and the pins un-bent for those whose pins are reasonably bendable without breaking the seal (mostly meaning the 7- and 9-pin sorts in my experience), there's no problem. This means protection from physical shock and (because of differential thermal expansion stress) protection from extremes of cold. (I'd add extremes of heat, too, except that they typically run hot enough that storage is unlikely to approach operating temperatures.) So, for people who do know - how far off base am I in thinking this? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 19:29:59 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:29:59 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know In-Reply-To: <513FDE5D.2020601@gmail.com> References: <513FA48E.1060608@vaxen.net> <513FBD9C.4030302@bitsavers.org> <513FDE5D.2020601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51411A07.6040800@gmail.com> On 03/12/2013 09:03 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/12/2013 06:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 3/12/13 2:56 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> How to unsubscribe? >>> >> >> After the past few weeks, a lot of us are wondering the same thing. > > Huh, did I miss a bunch of drama? Never mind. Now I see it. Wow. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 13 19:32:29 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:32:29 +0000 Subject: Adolescent behavior, was Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363205568.1536.BPMail_high_carrier@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140E307.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 13 March 2013 21:38, geneb wrote: > Hey guys, how about we not let the troll cause any more turmoil on the list. > Jay will stop by at some point and ban him and we can move on. > > tnx. I installed an Atari 800 Emulator and decided to play Rescue on Fractalus instead! Much more fun. Still a good game, 29 years later... Wait, 29 YEARS? I must be an old person. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 19:40:56 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:40:56 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 13 19:46:30 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > This'll probably rank as a "duh" moment for most of you but I thought I'd > share (mostly because it amused me): > > I was trying to figure out why the unregulated 8VDC line of my SWTPC 6800's > power supply kept dipping so suddenly under moderate load (and why it would > keep falling and falling as long as I left it running that way...) > > The overall behavior was: > > - Power up with minimal load (just the motherboard w/it's onboard > regulator): 8V line was fine at about 8.7V. > - Add up to two RAM cards and the 8V was still at around 8.3 or so. > - Add a third card and 8V drops to 6.5V and continues to drop steadily over > time. > > This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the fuse > (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting brighter. > > Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a > 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently > when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned > :). > > Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses > carefully. "Hey, why is there a new light bulb in this thing?" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 13 19:51:35 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more books FFS Message-ID: I have two more books free for shipping. The Fortran 77 one is gone. Here's what I have: *Motorola CMOS/NMOS Special Functions Data (1986) *Turbo C Reference Guide (1987) from Borland *UNIX Primer Plus by Waite Group Staff (1983, Softcover) *Introduction to WordStar by Arthur Naiman (1983, Paperback) *WordStar with Style by Roger White (1983, Paperback) *The Illustrated CP/M WordStar Dictionary with MailMerge and SpellStar *Word Processing on the Kaypro by Peter A. McWilliams (1983, Paperback) Take one or many. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 13 19:57:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: References: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140039C.5050101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130313175555.M81874@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Jason T wrote: > Met $cutegirl at concert. Chatted, shared laughs. Good signs. > Outside later, walking to our separate cars, I dare to ask for a phone > #. It was offered. Huzzah. Pull out PDA (thinking back to what year > this should have been, probably a Handspring Visor,) prepare to take > down the digits. $cutegirl notices PDA. "Ohh, my mom has one of > those!" > I think this is where the kids paste the "forever alone" guy in their thread. > (I did get her number, though.) When that happens to me, it's usually so that she can try to fix me up with her mom. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 13 20:09:24 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5151 hunt... Message-ID: Found one thanks to a listmember. Still chasing a 5150 compatible keyboard. tnx. -gene -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 20:19:03 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:19:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 380 vs VAX 8800 console In-Reply-To: References: <1363149209.85056.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5140039C.5050101@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Met $cutegirl at concert. What concert? That can make all the difference. -- Will From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Mar 13 20:29:02 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:29:02 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC In-Reply-To: References: <513ed92d.c8862b0a.3d64.1d64SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <513EDD47.7030504@gmail.com> <513FE7BC.6070702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514127DE.9070407@landcomp.net> On 3/13/13 5:59 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: > >> On 3/12/2013 5:43 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: >>> >>>> On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >>>>> Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not >>>>> have a FDC >>>>> on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy >>>>> disk it >>>>> seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC >>>>> board >>>>> outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to >>>>> try to >>>>> connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? >>>>> >>> >>>> Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box >>>> of 8" 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives >>>> and a power supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I >>>> doubt it. The cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on >>>> the mainboard. >>> >>> My 82O-II does indeed have its floppy controller on a daughterboard. >>> I suspect this is a different arrangement from the original 820 aka >>> Ferguson Bigboard. > >> I am sure you are right but, I don't see anything but a power supply >> with the floppy drives in this video. Looks identical to the non II >> floppy units I had. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9OwwolhLuE > > I think we're talking about different cases. The disk controller is > clearly visible in the closeup of the computer itself. It may have been > a different PCB in the floppy vs. hard-disk system. > > On a related subject, I would love to get my hands on an 820-II with > hard drive. Had two lined up at different points but both sellers > flaked out and stopped answering e-mail. Wonder if there's some sort of > distortion field projected from these units? > > If anybody has one they'd like to part with, I can do cash or trade. > > Steve > > Don't guess I'll be getting rid of mine for a while, after all the crap I went through to get some software on to it, LOL! Besides, I don't know how well the hard drive would stand up to any kind of shipping stress by the usual gorillas from USPS, Fedex, etc. -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 13 20:29:39 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:29:39 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51410C42.3000103@sydex.com> References: <51410C42.3000103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <834ADD05-6196-459C-BA01-190D9285BE66@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 13, at 4:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/13/2013 04:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum >> tubes? >> Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and >> forgotten >> about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get >> more at some point in the future. >> >> A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. > > Nothing that I'm aware of eats vacuum tubes--and I've got some pre- > WWII stuff that's still ticking right along. I'd be careful with > excess moisture if I had a bunch of old lighthouse tubes or any > other oddball metal-to-glas stuff. > > But, aside from mechanical shock, tubes are about as inert as one > can get. We have thousands at the radio museum, they get triaged and sorted into bins. We regularly use common stuff from the 30s, eighty years old now and just fine. I have wondered what the rate of gas infusion through glass is at STP, i.e. how long before the vacuum is reduced enough to affect tube parameters. 200 years? 1000 years? 10,000 years? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 13 20:30:03 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130313182850.H81874@shell.lmi.net> > > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? > > Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and > > forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and > > expect to get more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: > Other than "be careful with them", not much. I like to wrap > mine in paper, preferably wax paper; it keeps its shape > well, which keeps the little nubbins on top of the miniature > noval tubes from fracturing. Take the same care when > transporting as you would with expensive light bulbs. > If any still have the cartons, I like to keep them in there > (wrapped in paper to immobilize). So, . . . do not "TOSS them in an attic", nor "DUMP them in a toolbox" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 13 20:38:53 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:38:53 -0700 Subject: TMS4100 IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 13, at 2:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Idle curiousity, does anyone happen to know whether the TMS4100 ROM >> was a standard off-the-shelf character generator from TI, or was it a >> generic mask-ROM-to-customer-order, or otherwise have data on it such >> as it's native size. > > The 1976 'Memroy and Microprocessor Databook' (Texas Instruemnts) > lists a > TMS4102 Cheracter Gerneator. Like the one in the HP9830, it reads > out a > column at a time, and has the same pinout. I will give the pinout fro > mthe databook in a minute. The difference seems to be that the > TMS4103 > is specified as having 'Inputs and Outputs Fully TTL compatible) while > the inputs o ntne TMS4100 seem to be 12V levels. The HP9830 Dispaly > Driver PCB (09830-66542) drives them with high voltabge open-collector > buffers ('145 and '07), pulled up to 12V via a 1k2 resistor. (I had the pinout) > Unforutnately there is only 1 page of data on it in the book and it > doesn't give the paterns for the characters. The data sheet is > dated May > 1975 (after hte design of the HP9830, of course). >> >> Full id: >> TMS4100 >> ZA 5705 >> T-04163 >> 7308 <-- date code >> >> It's the character generator in the HP9830, arranged for character >> column scanning order rather than row scanning (7-bits columns at the >> outputs rather than 5-bit rows). >> >> I see three possibilities: >> - the TI TMS4100 is a character generator ROM >> - it's a TI TMS 4100 mask ROM, programmed and sold by TI as a >> character gen >> - it's a TI TMS 4100 mask ROM, programmed to order for HP > > My _guess_ is that the TMS4100 is a standrd character generator ROM > and the > TSM4103 is an imporved version with TTL-compatible inputs. > > The ratehr odd address inpout (1-of-5 colum select, for example) > seems to > suggst it's not a standard ROM device (I would epxpect fully bianry > coded > address inputso n such a device). > .. Another list member (Rob) found the ref in a 1970/1 TI book. Apparently, it's part of a character generator series, the 4103 is the off-the-shelf standard ASCII version in the series. As Rob pointed out, the 9830 one must be special order to HP though, to obtain the lazy-T cursor, unless there's some alternative tortured way they're injecting the T into the display scanning that I'm not seeing. Yes, the-1-of-5 select did suggest it was an intended character generator (although in principle it could be a straight ROM depending upon how much ROM space one is willing to waste, although (back on the other hand) being that wasteful would have been pushing it for ROM sizes of the period, and the 9830 has the binary encoding right there anyways). The earlier data only indicates MOS levels (for TMS 4103 JC/NC). From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 20:49:46 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:49:46 -0700 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> References: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51412CBA.9010907@gmail.com> On 3/13/2013 4:46 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a >> 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently >> when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned >> :). > Good thing to look out for! If I were to nitpick, though, I'd probably > point out that it's not that the fuse is starting to draw a lot of > current, but rather that it's starting to drop a lot of voltage as the > I in the IV term of Ohm's law goes way above its intended range. The > glowing is a tangential result (P = I^2*R). True enough, thanks for the correction :). - Josh > > > - Dave > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 21:07:38 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:07:38 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I still use tubes (aka valves in UK) as they are still the best way to produce lots of power from HF thru to SHF. Not any more. Semiconductors have taken over that field almost completely. It is far better (reliability, cost, and efficiency) to use an army of silicon over one or two vacuum tubes. The big manufacturers of superpower tubes, like CPI (Eimac), do most of their business fulfilling replacement for existing sockets. > The metal envelope type are of US military origin and fairly rugged. No, the metal tubes were originally a cost savings design. The US military did not start using them until 1938-ish, yet metal tubes were introduced a few years earlier. There are dozens of civilian radios that used them before the military adopted them. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 13 21:15:14 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> TECO for two please. >> >> 029! > > I'd have to upgrade (I only have an 026). I'll see your 029, and raise you a 129. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 13 21:16:06 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:16:06 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <514132E6.50704@sydex.com> On 03/13/2013 04:52 PM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Finally most valves / tubes need voltages that can spoil the rest of your life. > If you have not worked with high voltages then tubes are probably not for you. They can be a lot of fun. Lately, I've seen circuits using JFETs to provide a constant current load, resulting in some fairly spectacular gain factors. You can abuse the hell of of most tubes electrically--just watch the heater voltage. It was very common for amateurs to run power tubes (particularly horizontal output types because of their low cost) with the plates glowing cherry red. It shortened their life, but such stuff used to be cheap. I liked 6BG6s for that kind of thing. 6L6Gs got similarly abused. When 1625s (WWII surplus version of the venerable 807 with a 12V heater) were cheap, all sorts of things were attempted. There was even a grounded-grid modification where the beam-forming electrodes were fished out of the base (a hacksaw was handy) from their connection with the cathode and brought out separately to an unused pin. Fooling with some of the oddball circuits is also worth investigating. For example, try building an electron-orbit (Gillmorell/Barkhausen) oscillator, where the control grid is very positive with respect to the cathode and the plate is negative with respect to it. Before fancy microwave tubes, it was one way to get high-frequency oscillation. Unless you're into high-power stuff, you can get away with 250VDC or less as the DC supply. High-power transmitters get into the kilovolt+ range and can be quite deadly. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 13 21:25:50 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:25:50 -0400 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5141352E.2070802@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/03/13 7:51 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Hi, > > I am in the process of working on a new Amiga game, but I have the > graphics saved in .PNG format. I could convert them to the much > easier to decompress .IFF format, but .PNG image save many more > bytes (e.g image is 15KB saved as an .IFF vs. 9KB as a .PNG). > > I have sucessfully decoded all the easy stuff, but am currently trying > to decode the IDAT chunk (where the image data is stored). > > The format of the data is defined as follows (straight out of the RFC1951 > Deflate Compression document available online): > > > 5 Bits: HLIT, # of Literal/Length codes - 257 (257 - 286) > 5 Bits: HDIST, # of Distance codes - 1 (1 - 32) > 4 Bits: HCLEN, # of Code Length codes - 4 (4 - 19) > > (HCLEN + 4) x 3 bits: code lengths for the code length > alphabet given just above, in the order: 16, 17, 18, > 0, 8, 7, 9, 6, 10, 5, 11, 4, 12, 3, 13, 2, 14, 1, 15 > These code lengths are interpreted as 3-bit integers > (0-7); as above, a code length of 0 means the > corresponding symbol (literal/length or distance code > length) is not used. > > HLIT + 257 code lengths for the literal/length alphabet, > encoded using the code length Huffman code > > HDIST + 1 code lengths for the distance alphabet, > encoded using the code length Huffman code > > The actual compressed data of the block, > encoded using the literal/length and distance Huffman > codes > > The literal/length symbol 256 (end of data), > encoded using the literal/length Huffman code. > > > All the documents I found online either say use the zlib library or point to > the RFC1951 document :( > > Does anyone know how to decode the literal / length (HLIT) and distance > > codes (HDIST)? > Huffman compression was always something I found hard, but it seemed > much easier after finding this page online: > > http://www.cs.duke.edu/csed/poop/huff/info/ There is a very good library for working with PNG: libpng. http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html Most likely the answer is in its source code. It would save you a lot of time just to use that library, too. --Toby > > > > Regards, > > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > From pet4032 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 21:36:01 2013 From: pet4032 at gmail.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:36:01 -0400 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51413791.8040908@gmail.com> On 3/13/2013 7:51 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, > > I am in the process of working on a new Amiga game, but I have the > graphics saved in .PNG format. I could convert them to the much > easier to decompress .IFF format, but .PNG image save many more > bytes (e.g image is 15KB saved as an .IFF vs. 9KB as a .PNG). > Sorry I can't help you with the PNG decompression, but I think it is very cool that you are working on a new Amiga game! Do you have a website for the work-in-progress details? Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 13 22:11:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:11:41 -0400 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51413FED.3070401@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2013 08:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: > In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean > looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it > was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your > into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 Ohhhhhhhhmigod! If it were only on this coast!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 13 22:26:52 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:26:52 -0400 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5141437C.1080004@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/03/13 8:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: > In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean > looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it > was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your > into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 > Oh hell yes. Lovely. Thanks for the link. Big fan of Sun 3 gear here, I never saw a full size rack of it. --T From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 22:34:10 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:34:10 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 13, 2013 8:05 PM, "mc68010" wrote: > > In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 I've got a rack setup that looks almost identical except that it's a 4/280 instead of a 3/280. Same VME cube chassis, same Fujitsu 9-track tape drive, and same pair of 8-inch SMD-E drives. I don't have those panels to close up the rear of the rack. I've only powered up mine a few times since I picked it up a couple of years ago. I should really find a new home for it in the Seattle area. -Glen From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 13 23:41:30 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:41:30 -0800 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:10 PM -0400 3/13/13, William Donzelli wrote: > > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? Are >> these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about >> until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some >> point in the future. > >Temperature extremes are really not a problem, simply because they are >made for such extremes during normal operation. Moisture can be a >problem in extreme cases, but normally not much of an issue either - >mostly the boxes suffer (and metal tubes, I suppose). The only thing >that really is bad for tubes is salt spray. Don't store your tubes in >a seaside shack. I want to thank everyone for the answers! It sounds like the safest place for them in the long term will be the Attic. What I have right now are most likely pulls. What I will get at some point in the future, who knows, but I suspect they might have come out of Tektronix. I'm hopeful though that ones will be found that are suitable for Audio applications, as I suspect that is what they were collected for. In the lot that I'll get at some point in the future is a very, very clean nice Heathkit tube tester, that has always been kept in the house. Basically my interest in Tubes is limited to Audio. I love Tube Based stereo's, and at some point in the future I hope to have a *good* tube Amp to hook up to my Rega turntable! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 23:25:32 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:25:32 -0400 Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > As Rob pointed out, the 9830 one must be special order to HP though, to > obtain the lazy-T cursor, unless there's some alternative tortured way > they're injecting the T into the display scanning that I'm not seeing. Thank you for mentioning this. I've asked on the list now and again about a computer I used c. 1976 that had a "lazy-T cursor". I was quite young at the time and it was only brought to our school for a special occasion, so my memories are quite fuzzy about it, but having now googled with some useful keywords, I'm reasonably certain that the device I was trying to describe was an HP 9830 with an HP 9860 mark-sense card reader. It seems unlikely I'll ever end up with one, so I'm happy to have found this emulator, updated less than a year ago... http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/files/go9800/ Thanks again for the very helpful nudge in precisely the correct direction! -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 14 00:25:46 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:25:46 -0800 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <20130313182850.H81874@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130313182850.H81874@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 6:30 PM -0700 3/13/13, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? >> > Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and >> > forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and >> > expect to get more at some point in the future. >> > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: >> Other than "be careful with them", not much. I like to wrap >> mine in paper, preferably wax paper; it keeps its shape >> well, which keeps the little nubbins on top of the miniature >> noval tubes from fracturing. Take the same care when >> transporting as you would with expensive light bulbs. >> If any still have the cartons, I like to keep them in there >> (wrapped in paper to immobilize). > >So, . . . do not "TOSS them in an attic", nor "DUMP them in a toolbox" I'm not going to literally "toss" them into the Attic. :-) As for dumping them into the toolbox, I wasn't the one that placed them in there, so I really can't speak to that. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 23:29:15 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:29:15 -0700 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com>, , Message-ID: Making a regen. radio is not too big a deal.Always fun.Dwight > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > Nice. I have a few old 12V tubes (NOS from a science lab that was > > decomissioned a few years back that had some parts going back to the > > mid-1950s - ancient carbon composite resistors and all). I'm looking > > at that 12V battery-powered headphone amp project as an easy > > get-started project. I think I have everything on hand except the > > tube socket. > > What socket do you need? I have sockets. > > And, out of curiosity, when you talk about 12V tubes, do you mean the > space charge types? > > -- > Will From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 13 23:52:26 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:52:26 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5141578A.2070907@jwsss.com> On 3/13/2013 5:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: > In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a > clean looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks > like it was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is > beautiful if your into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 > > I had two 4/280's like that, wish I could have held on to them. Also was at an auction with 8 systems in a complex from a database development company. Gorgeous hardware for them, crap execution on the s/w. I fired up the systems and ran backups for the auctioneer and myself of their development systems. was pretty cool. jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 14 00:06:02 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:06:02 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B203412-F661-4DBD-8F90-2058DB08A449@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 13, at 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum > tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic > and forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, > and expect to get more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. If you have too many of them, here's an alternate use (shameless self- reference): http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/radio/vtm/index.html The reality is most receiving tubes are next-to-worthless. Of all the tubes floating around still, there's a portion that are of interest to radio restorers; a small set of types of interest to audiophiles; and piles and piles of what I call TV-junk - types made for TVs in the 50/60s for which there is little demand. Sometimes the audiophiles find a novel new way to use some type and it might see a spike in interest. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 14 00:09:08 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <514132E6.50704@sydex.com> References: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <514132E6.50704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201303140509.BAA27011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You can abuse the hell of of most tubes electrically--just watch the > heater voltage. This is true; they are far more robust than modern semiconductors. > Unless you're into high-power stuff, you can get away with 250VDC or > less as the DC supply. Substantially less. When I was fooling around with glassfets in the '70s, I usually used B+ voltages anywhere between about 80V and 150V. Then I spoke with a guitar tech about using 12AX7s, I think it was, in guitar effects, and was wondering where they got the high voltage. He told me B+ in such circuits is, IIRC, 12V. It makes sense - power delivered is not really a consideration in such things - but it was a bit of a surprise to me.... > High-power transmitters get into the kilovolt+ range and can be quite > deadly. Pretty much anything that can deliver hundreds-to-thousands of watts can be quite deadly. (Even modern computer power supplies - anything that can push 100A at 3.3V definitely deserves an energy hazard warning label! I've heard stories - first-hand, mind you, as in told by the person bearing the burn scars - of energy hazard accidents that make me wince from empathy...and make me very glad I'm not in a position to tell such stories myself. Okay, probably not truly _deadly_, but certainly pretty harsh.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 00:36:17 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:36:17 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514161D1.6060700@gmail.com> On 3/13/2013 8:34 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I don't have those panels to close up the rear of the rack. I've only > powered up mine a few times since I picked it up a couple of years > ago. I should really find a new home for it in the Seattle area. -Glen I have never even seen those rear panels before. I have seen so many 3/4 280 systems over the years but, they have always been uncovered in the back. That's the cleanest 3/280 ever. I wonder if it was actually used. First thing I would probably have done back then is take off the rear panels and toss them. What a pain to have to unscrew all that to get at anything. Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a keylock there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a x/280 case. If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the backplane and tape drive. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 14 00:56:46 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:56:46 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <5141578A.2070907@jwsss.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <5141578A.2070907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <61715879-FC8E-4D41-87D9-981228252E49@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:52 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 3/13/2013 5:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a >> clean looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It >> looks like it was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it >> is beautiful if your into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 >> >> > I had two 4/280's like that, wish I could have held on to them. > Also was at an auction with 8 systems in a complex from a database > development company. Gorgeous hardware for them, crap execution on > the s/w. Ran across a nice racked Sun 2 system with open-reel 9-track in a storage closet at a local U just a couple years ago (pretty sure it was a 2). I don't know now what has happened to it. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 14 01:09:38 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:09:38 -0700 Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: >> As Rob pointed out, the 9830 one must be special order to HP >> though, to >> obtain the lazy-T cursor, unless there's some alternative tortured >> way >> they're injecting the T into the display scanning that I'm not >> seeing. > > Thank you for mentioning this. I've asked on the list now and > again about > a computer I used c. 1976 that had a "lazy-T cursor". I was quite > young > at the time and it was only brought to our school for a special > occasion, > so my memories are quite fuzzy about it, but having now googled with > some useful keywords, I'm reasonably certain that the device I was > trying > to describe was an HP 9830 with an HP 9860 mark-sense card reader. > > It seems unlikely I'll ever end up with one, so I'm happy to have > found > this emulator, updated less than a year ago... > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/files/go9800/ > > Thanks again for the very helpful nudge in precisely the correct > direction! Well that's very prescient, you're answering a question I was just about to ask. Rob and I have been discussing 9830s lately (and thanks to Rob I have one to work on here) and we realised, somewhat to our surprise, that we had both encountered the 9830 in school in the mid-70's, in geographically very-separated regions - Rob in the Montreal area and me in the Vancouver area. Both instances had the mark-sense card reader too. Everybody sat at their desk in class and pencil-marked off their first program (10 PRINT ""..), lined up at the computer and submitted their card deck for batch-style processing. Keeners could use the machine after hours and type and edit directly on the keyboard and LED display (whoo-hoo!). So just how widespread or prevalent were 9830s in schools - did anyone else here encounter the 9830 in highschool (or gradeschool)? From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 01:12:44 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:12:44 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <514161D1.6060700@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <514161D1.6060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 13, 2013 11:06 PM, "mc68010" wrote: > Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a keylock there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a x/280 case. If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the backplane and tape drive. On the 4/280 rack I have I'm pretty sure that is a front panel key switch which is wired to the power controller. -Glen From wilson at dbit.com Thu Mar 14 01:32:41 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:32:41 -0400 Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <201303131518.LAA22927@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> <201303130636.CAA12054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130313075419.GA17866@dbit.dbit.com> <201303131518.LAA22927@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130314063241.GA1823@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18:26AM -0400, Mouse wrote: >I'm particularly curious because I have a terminal emulator which, >among other things, can be told to emulate something moderately close >to a VT100. I'd like to get its wrapping behaviour right; this >complicates the question because now I have to decide what I think >"right" is. :-) I know the feeling! >A quick look at my code indicates that I don't quite do any of those. >The only thing I see explicitly clearing the "wrap now" flag is tab, Bad news: unless I'm missing something, tab doesn't clear the wrap flag on the VT100 or 101, and on the 102 it clears it only if the cursor moves (but not if it was already at the right margin). If you want any cases tested on a real 100, 101, or 102, let me know! It'll be easy until I get sick of having them in a row on my living room floor. John Wilson D Bit From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 01:34:41 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:34:41 -0400 Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader In-Reply-To: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> (HP) 9830... lazy-T cursor... >> >> Thank you for mentioning this. I've asked on the list now and again about >> a computer I used c. 1976 that had a "lazy-T cursor"... HP 9830 with >> an HP 9860 mark-sense card reader. > > Well that's very prescient, you're answering a question I was just about to > ask. No problem. > Rob and I have been discussing 9830s lately (and thanks to Rob I have one to > work on here) Very cool. > and we realised, somewhat to our surprise, that we had both > encountered the 9830 in school in the mid-70's... > > Both instances had the mark-sense card reader too. Everybody sat at their > desk in class and pencil-marked off their first program (10 PRINT " NAME>"..), lined up at the computer and submitted their card deck for > batch-style processing... Yep. Similar experience. > Keeners could use the machine after hours and type > and edit directly on the keyboard and LED display (whoo-hoo!). Never got that chance. > So just how widespread or prevalent were 9830s in schools - did anyone else > here encounter the 9830 in highschool (or gradeschool)? Grade school for me. It was some sort of science/technology day, and the HP 9830 was brought down "from the district" and set up, and we did the aforementioned "10 PRINT """ exercise with the cards. I remember seeing the unit about a year later when I accompanied our teacher to one of the downtown school buildings to get science supplies (a trip on which I got a full-sized classroom periodic table chart that still hangs in my bedroom). The unit was off, but I remembered it from its visit to my school. This would have been, as I said, about 1976 and 1977, in Columbus, OH. By 1977 I was already going down to the main library to sign up for an hour a week on one of the two 4K chicklet-keyboard PETs, then two years later, we got a 32K PET for home, but I never forgot that "Lazy-T". -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 14 02:00:02 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:00:02 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <201303140509.BAA27011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <514132E6.50704@sydex.com> <201303140509.BAA27011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <51417572.5030009@sydex.com> On 03/13/2013 10:09 PM, Mouse wrote: > Pretty much anything that can deliver hundreds-to-thousands of watts > can be quite deadly. (Even modern computer power supplies - anything > that can push 100A at 3.3V definitely deserves an energy hazard warning > label! I've heard stories - first-hand, mind you, as in told by the > person bearing the burn scars - of energy hazard accidents that make me > wince from empathy...and make me very glad I'm not in a position to > tell such stories myself. Okay, probably not truly _deadly_, but > certainly pretty harsh.) Well, 3.3V at 100A will possibly burn you but 3KV can kill you outright if you don't observe the "one hand in a back pocket" rule--and MAKE SURE THAT THOSE FILTER CAPS ARE DISCHARGED--BLEEDERS CAN AND DO OPEN WITHOUT VISIBLE WARNING. A neon lamp in series with a large resistor will serve as a visible warning indicator. I once had a very painful first-hand experience of this. I'd turned off the transmitter's plate supply to do an adjustment, but the bleeder wasn't bleeding. I foolishly braced myself with the hand that should have been in a back pocket against the side of the rack holding the chassis and reached in to pull the plate cap off of one of the final tubes. I was standing in the space between the transmitter and a cinder-block wall. My arm convulsed and slammed my elbow into the wall. I saw stars and acquired a large bruise but I survived. Just damned lucky, I guess. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 02:11:24 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:11:24 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <514161D1.6060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5141781C.7020400@gmail.com> On 3/13/2013 11:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013 11:06 PM, "mc68010" wrote: >> Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a keylock > there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a x/280 case. > If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the backplane and > tape drive. > > On the 4/280 rack I have I'm pretty sure that is a front panel key switch > which is wired to the power controller. > > -Glen Hmm fuzzy memories coming back. Maybe I do remember them. It just went to some header on the power distribution deal right ? From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 02:26:32 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:26:32 -0700 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <5141578A.2070907@jwsss.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <5141578A.2070907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51417BA8.2080604@gmail.com> On 3/13/2013 9:52 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > I had two 4/280's like that, wish I could have held on to them. Also > was at an auction with 8 systems in a complex from a database > development company. Gorgeous hardware for them, crap execution on > the s/w. > > I fired up the systems and ran backups for the auctioneer and myself > of their development systems. > > was pretty cool. > > jim I have had a few x/280 systems over the years but, nothing so original as this one. They are hard to find places to keep. I got rid of all of mine too. Back in the 90's people would beg you to take them away. The racks they wanted to keep. I once built a stack out of 12 slot cases 3x2 on the bottom and 3 units tall. 18 in all. There was once a picture of me standing on top that has been lost to the ages. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 11:32:01 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:32:01 -0400 Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing Message-ID: I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? Thanks. Murray :) From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Wed Mar 13 15:07:48 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:07:48 +0100 Subject: Xerox 820-II & external FDC Message-ID: <010f01ce2026$6f8fe370$4eafaa50$@lazzerini@email.it> Hi all, I did not think that my request for help would have so many people interested. First of all, I do have ONLY the 820-II motherboard without houses, or anything, and it does not have any FDC chip on its board. I got curious and found the document 610P72384_820-II_Technical_Reference_1984 available here http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/xerox/820-II/610P72384_820-II_Technic al_Reference_1984.pdf . On the schematics on page 60 and the following there is no trace of any FDC. On page 57 the manual says that the connector for floppy disk is a dual personality depending on the type of daughterboard installed in the motherboard ... but I not have ever seen it. From the movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9OwwolhLuE at minute 0:15 you can see a card that could be a controller. Does anyone know its exact code? On page 30 of the same document document 610P72384_820-II_Technical_Reference_1984 is specified the connection between the J1connector (37 pin D-type) and the controller SA 14030 (which i have with me but has huge dimensions in order to enter the houses of the xerox): names assigned to the wires connection seems that a protocol would been used but do not know what ... maybe SCSI?? In addition at pages 48 and 49, the same connector is used to connect the board with drive 5 "and 8" drives and here the names on the connecting wires are the same used with the classic drives. Thanks in advance for any useful info. Enrico From JWOLFE at 19209.decnet.org Wed Mar 13 19:08:12 2013 From: JWOLFE at 19209.decnet.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:08:12 -0700 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS Message-ID: <13031317081230.130.8678@legato.decnet.org> *shrug* Both of my RL02 drives were shipped via UPS in giant boxes. The delivery guy looked at me funny, but for only $70 it was worth it. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 14 02:41:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51417572.5030009@sydex.com> References: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <514132E6.50704@sydex.com> <201303140509.BAA27011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51417572.5030009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201303140741.DAA27581@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Pretty much anything that can deliver hundreds-to-thousands of watts >> can be quite deadly. ([...] 100A at 3.3V [...]. Okay, probably not >> truly _deadly_, but certainly pretty harsh.) > Well, 3.3V at 100A will possibly burn you but 3KV can kill you > outright [...] So can 120V...all it needs to do is push enough current through you to convulse the wrong muscles and/or stop your heart. The only reason 3.3V is safe in this respect is that it requires very good contact to push much current through a human body, better than is reasonably foreseeable. Possibly better than is possible; I don't know the danger threshold for current, nor the resistivity of human flesh. 120V can do this; if contact is good - eg, if your skin is wet with dirty (ie, conductive) water - even lower voltages (48V? 24V? please don't any of you find out in person!) can push enough current to be dangerous. But a low enough voltage is safe because it can't push hazardous current levels even with really good contact. And the "other hand in your back pocket" rule helps because - provided the rest of you is insulated, especially your feet - it means that even if you get a bad jolt, it's not going to go near anything really dangerous (most notably your heart). My father used to test 9V batteries by touching the tip of his tongue across the terminals; this provides excellent contact (by human-body standards), but the current isn't going to go anywhere but through the tonguetip. Of course, as you found... > I once had a very painful first-hand experience of this. [...] > I saw stars and acquired a large bruise but I survived. ...shocking your heart into fibrillation isn't the only hazard. It's just one of the few that's directly and immediately lethal. > Just damned lucky, I guess. Actually, the human body is pretty robust. Even if you get a good stiff jolt right down one arm and up the other - or between an arm and a leg - right past your heart, you _probably_ will survive. People regularly survive direct lightning strikes.... It's just that when the event being risked carries a cost that high, even what would in other contexts be a tiny chance is worth taking significant measures to avoid. In lots of contexts a 10% chance is small enough to be ignored. In lots more contexts, 1% is. But I wouldn't ignore either one when what I'm risking is stopping my heart. Not unless it's the best way out of something even more likely to be lethal, and such cases are very rare. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 14 02:51:54 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <20130314063241.GA1823@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> <20130313061802.GA17278@dbit.dbit.com> <201303130636.CAA12054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130313075419.GA17866@dbit.dbit.com> <201303131518.LAA22927@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130314063241.GA1823@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201303140751.DAA27636@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> A quick look at my code indicates that I don't quite do any of >> those. The only thing I see explicitly clearing the "wrap now" flag >> is tab, [...] > Bad news: unless I'm missing something, tab doesn't clear the wrap > flag on the VT100 or 101, and on the 102 it clears it only if the > cursor moves (but not if it was already at the right margin). Yes, I noticed your description implied that. But I'm clearly misreading my code. It looks to me as though my wrapping flag causes a wrap even if the cursor is no longer at the right margin at the time the second printable character arrives, but testing indicates that's not actually how it works; the behaviour I'm seeing appears to be more like your description of the VT102 than anything else. I clearly need to look at that code more closely. > If you want any cases tested on a real 100, 101, or 102, let me know! > It'll be easy until I get sick of having them in a row on my living > room floor. Heh. I know the syndrome. :/ /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 14 02:56:04 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:56:04 -0700 Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52D54486-2AA5-4F97-B06D-24F6FA9618D5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:32 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting > the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first > microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? The HP 9830 just being discussed might be one for your consideration, depending on how you want to classify a microcomputer. It's a desktop, 'personal' computer with built-in BASIC but the CPU is implemented in TTL, not a single-chip microprocessor. Introduced 1972, encountered by personal experience in computer/programming course high school 1976. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 03:00:45 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:00:45 +0000 Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting > the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first > microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? Define micro... In the early days the (mid 1960's) colleges and schools were building their own computers as was discussed on this list a few months ago. for mini sized 1940's 1950' http://www.dcs.bbk.ac.uk/about/history/ Dave Caroline From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 14 05:15:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:15:36 -0400 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <5141781C.7020400@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <514161D1.6060700@gmail.com> <5141781C.7020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5141A348.8040300@neurotica.com> On 03/14/2013 03:11 AM, mc68010 wrote: >>> Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a keylock >> there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a x/280 >> case. >> If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the backplane >> and >> tape drive. >> >> On the 4/280 rack I have I'm pretty sure that is a front panel key switch >> which is wired to the power controller. > > Hmm fuzzy memories coming back. Maybe I do remember them. It just went > to some header on the power distribution deal right ? Yes, on the AC power controller, usually a Pulizzi unit or similar. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 14 05:17:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:17:22 -0400 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <51417BA8.2080604@gmail.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <5141578A.2070907@jwsss.com> <51417BA8.2080604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5141A3B2.20504@neurotica.com> On 03/14/2013 03:26 AM, mc68010 wrote: > I have had a few x/280 systems over the years but, nothing so original > as this one. They are hard to find places to keep. I got rid of all of > mine too. Back in the 90's people would beg you to take them away. The > racks they wanted to keep. I once built a stack out of 12 slot cases > 3x2 on the bottom and 3 units tall. 18 in all. There was once a picture > of me standing on top that has been lost to the ages. I built *dozens* of such racks from early 1993 to late 1995, filled with Sun 3/50 and 3/60 boards that were netbooted. This was a progenitor of what we now call "blade systems". Of course Sun swore it wouldn't work (nobody knows less about Sun computers than Sun...never seen anything like it) and of course someone else took the credit, but it's documented at least. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 14 06:18:14 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:18:14 -0500 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130314111814.GQ10531@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/13/2013 at 05:03PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > >Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses > >carefully. > > Interesting fault mode, but I wouldn't express that as the fuse > "drawing a lot of current". That fuse should be the one in the +8V > line and it looks like what was happening is your cards were drawing > current just short of blowing the fuse. As the fuse filament heated > up it's resistance increased, so more of the +8 supply voltage was > dropping across the fuse, reducing the +8V output level. (Overall > current should actually be going down). > > Yay, another SWTPC 6800 (I have one too). Also, specific to the SWTPC 6800, you might want to closely inspect the white Molex connector(s) at the power supply PCB. The pins in those connectors were too whimpy for the amount of current typically carried through them. They will heat up and degrade over time. On one of my systems the PCB is even brown from the heating. I mod'd this part of the machine, installing a heavier duty in-line Molex connector off the board and then soldering wire directly into the holes in the PCB where the (burnt) connector used to be. In my case, this was the reason the +8 was too low on the backplane. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From bthomas at brothom.nl Thu Mar 14 06:26:10 2013 From: bthomas at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:26:10 +0100 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363116355.76196.BPMail_high_carrier@web121405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <513F883D.306@neurotica.com> <009801ce2030$a2628e10$e727aa30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5141B3D2.5030400@brothom.nl> > If I had to tip in on that one - MS-DOS EDIT.EXE. :?D > That reminds me: no one mentioned EDLIN. Back when I was an adulescent I had my own religion: OS/2. I had a tagline in my emails saying: "Windows, brought to you by the makers of edlin". Still a good one I think :-) From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Thu Mar 14 07:19:56 2013 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:19:56 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51410A2F.7060205@jwsss.com> References: <51410A2F.7060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0b864d$b7d7ni@fipsb03.cogeco.net> At 07:22 PM 13/03/2013, you wrote: >On 3/13/2013 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum >>tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic >>and forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, >>and expect to get more at some point in the future. >> >>A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. >> >>Zane >> >> >A lot of them have traces of cesium or other odd agents that were >used to absorb the last bits of O2 after the vacuum was applied. > >they otherwise are glass, copper, steel, and micah, and other odd >materials which should not age much. I'd be careful of storing them >to rattle around for fear of damage. > >Also though you can peer thru the glass at the insides some of them >can be hard to figure out the number of in 40 or 60 years of >storage, so make sure that you keep them such that their legends >don't get rubbed off in storage. Some of them will have the numbers >applied to the glass via some process that really is indelible short >of breaking the glass, and I've seen some with some sort of white >ink that didn't last the lifetime of the tube (was messed up when I >took it out in the 60's) >Luckily in some cases you can read the chassis to determine the numbers. > >Do you have a tester stored with the tubes? Do you have them sorted >by NOS vs. pulls? that is about the only other thing to think >about. and the other bits, capacitors and other parts won't age as >well as the tubes if you have bought and stored them. > >Jim Back in the old days we used to bring up the numbers on the top of glass tubes with a quick rub on ones hair. This would put a bit of grease on it but we would try to persuade the client that it was mental telepathy. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From starmaster at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 08:03:59 2013 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:03:59 -0600 Subject: Wanted: C-64 equip for project Message-ID: Was wondering if anyone had any unwanted working/non-working Commodore items. I am helping my grandson on a school project. Thank you starmaster(at)gmail.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 14 08:12:15 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:24 PM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >>>> TECO for two please. >>> >>> 029! >> >> I'd have to upgrade (I only have an 026). > > I'll see your 029, and raise you a 129. :-) > I'm going to wait till you guys start showing off your limestone disks and begin debating the ideal face angle for your chisels. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 14 08:13:05 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: <51413FED.3070401@neurotica.com> References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <51413FED.3070401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/13/2013 08:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean >> looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it >> was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your >> into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 > > Ohhhhhhhhmigod! If it were only on this coast!! > > I do belive Mr. McGuire has himself a case of the vapors. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 14 08:29:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:29:27 -0400 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 In-Reply-To: References: <1362341636.65991.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1363217175.75731.YahooMailNeo@web171606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <51411C98.5060606@gmail.com> <51413FED.3070401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9E040D05-5EEA-4732-B173-1417E905BFB2@neurotica.com> On Mar 14, 2013, at 9:13 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 03/13/2013 08:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean >>> looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it >>> was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your >>> into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 >> >> Ohhhhhhhhmigod! If it were only on this coast!! >> >> > I do belive Mr. McGuire has himself a case of the vapors. :) Usually. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 14 08:57:59 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:57:59 -0700 Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader In-Reply-To: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Brent wrote: > Rob and I have been discussing 9830s lately (and thanks to Rob I have one to > work on here) and we realised, somewhat to our surprise, that we had both > encountered the 9830 in school in the mid-70's, in geographically very- > separated regions - Rob in the Montreal area and me in the Vancouver area. > > Both instances had the mark-sense card reader too. Everybody sat at their > desk in class and pencil-marked off their first program (10 PRINT " NAME>"..), lined up at the computer and submitted their card deck for > batch-style processing. Keeners could use the machine after hours and type > and edit directly on the keyboard and LED display (whoo-hoo!). > > So just how widespread or prevalent were 9830s in schools - did anyone else > here encounter the 9830 in highschool (or gradeschool)? The local HP rep brought a (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/hp9830a.html) 9830 with the "add on the top" thermal printer, and a mark-sense card reader, to our high school (Reynolds High School, Troutdale, Oregon, a suburb of Portland to the East) and left it there for about 6 weeks, in early '76, IIRC. Myself (a Junior) and one other student(a Senior) were in the "advanced computer math" class (a special class that they created for us since we'd outpaced the standard curriculum), and we got pretty much exclusive use of the machine during non-class periods. During class periods, the students would mark up their programs and feed them to the machine, using it essentially in batch mode. They only used the keyboard to enter variables into their programs...no program editing or debugging allowed. Me and the other guy got to use the machine however we wanted. We ported a lot of HP2000 games and other programs (those that would fit) to it. I loved the machine -- it was like having one's own HP Timeshare System, but all in one nice unit. Of course, I begged my parents to get one for me, but it was beyond their means. They did did arrange, though, to rent a teletype ASR-33 from a local computer equipment rental company, and it was put in my bedroom, along with a phone line, so that I could dial into Multnomah County Intermediate Education District's(MCIED) HP 2000/F and HP 2000/Access systems, as well as Oregon Museum of Science and Industry's (OMSI) DEC RSTS/E system (running on a nicely configured PDP 11/45). My room always smelled of Teletype oil and that funky smell of the canary-or pink-colored oiled paper tape. It was definitely cool. The worst part was that the sucker was noisy -- after my parents went to bed, I couldn't use it, as even though their bedroom was at the other end of the house, it would keep them awake, not to mention my little brother, who was in the room next-door. As long as I kept my grades up, I could keep the Teletype. After I finished high school, and got a job at Tektronix, I ended up getting a Tektronix 4010 terminal and an acoustic coupler modem, and the Teletype was returned to the rental agency, and I paid for the phone line myself. I still had access to OMSI's machine, as well as the CDC Cyber 73 (KRONOS) and a VAX 11/780 running VMS until 8PM at night, and an early version of BSD Unix from 9PM until 6AM. That machine is where I cut my teeth on Unix and fell in love with it. I loved being able to do graphics with the 4010, and did a lot of experimenting with programs in BASIC, and later in C, to make graphics. I wrote some neat tools to do windowing and scaling (didn't know that Tektronix had PLOT 10 in FORTRAN on the Cyber that did all of this stuff already...learned about it later) and had fun visualizing various math functions. Those were the days. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 14 09:04:54 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:04:54 -0700 Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Murray wrote: > > I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting the > education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first microcomputer used > in an education setting for teaching purposes? > That's a tough one, defining the "first". All I know is that at our High School, the school purchased an IMSAI 8080 computer kit in spring of '76 or so, and the advanced computer class built it. Once it was up and running, we did a lot of educational programming on it. We had a blast putting it together, and amazingly, it ran the first time we powered it up. We added an OAE "fast" optical paper tape reader, some more RAM, and a serial interface we hooked up to a Teletype. I wrote a simple operating system for it that allowed program development and debugging. My understanding that the first widely-used microcomputer in schools with the Apple II. Rick Bensene From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 09:08:30 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:08:30 -0400 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: <51412CBA.9010907@gmail.com> References: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> <51412CBA.9010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9F09E4B3-F84C-4382-8464-7E3638FCD890@gmail.com> On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 3/13/2013 4:46 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a >>> 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently >>> when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned >>> :). >> Good thing to look out for! If I were to nitpick, though, I'd probably >> point out that it's not that the fuse is starting to draw a lot of >> current, but rather that it's starting to drop a lot of voltage as the >> I in the IV term of Ohm's law goes way above its intended range. The >> glowing is a tangential result (P = I^2*R). > > True enough, thanks for the correction :). And of course if I were to nitpick again, I'd point out that I said IV instead of IR, which is what I meant. If nothing else, I try to be consistent in my pedantry. :-) - Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 09:22:24 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:22:24 -0700 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: <20130314111814.GQ10531@n0jcf.net> References: , , <20130314111814.GQ10531@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Putting some DC#4 silicone grease on the connector pins willkeep it from over heating because of bad contact.Dwight > Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:18:14 -0500 > From: chrise at pobox.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip > > On Wednesday (03/13/2013 at 05:03PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > >Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses > > >carefully. > > > > Interesting fault mode, but I wouldn't express that as the fuse > > "drawing a lot of current". That fuse should be the one in the +8V > > line and it looks like what was happening is your cards were drawing > > current just short of blowing the fuse. As the fuse filament heated > > up it's resistance increased, so more of the +8 supply voltage was > > dropping across the fuse, reducing the +8V output level. (Overall > > current should actually be going down). > > > > Yay, another SWTPC 6800 (I have one too). > > Also, specific to the SWTPC 6800, you might want to closely inspect the > white Molex connector(s) at the power supply PCB. The pins in those > connectors were too whimpy for the amount of current typically carried > through them. They will heat up and degrade over time. On one of my > systems the PCB is even brown from the heating. > > I mod'd this part of the machine, installing a heavier duty in-line Molex > connector off the board and then soldering wire directly into the holes > in the PCB where the (burnt) connector used to be. > > In my case, this was the reason the +8 was too low on the backplane. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 09:24:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:24:43 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <201303140741.DAA27581@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363218775.232.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <514132E6.50704@sydex.com> <201303140509.BAA27011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51417572.5030009@sydex.com> <201303140741.DAA27581@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3C2CDED7-7357-470F-BB9F-84C4EC7C4DDF@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> Pretty much anything that can deliver hundreds-to-thousands of watts >>> can be quite deadly. ([...] 100A at 3.3V [...]. Okay, probably not >>> truly _deadly_, but certainly pretty harsh.) >> Well, 3.3V at 100A will possibly burn you but 3KV can kill you >> outright [...] > > So can 120V...all it needs to do is push enough current through you to > convulse the wrong muscles and/or stop your heart. The only reason > 3.3V is safe in this respect is that it requires very good contact to > push much current through a human body, better than is reasonably > foreseeable. Possibly better than is possible; I don't know the danger > threshold for current, nor the resistivity of human flesh. 120V can do > this; if contact is good - eg, if your skin is wet with dirty (ie, > conductive) water - even lower voltages (48V? 24V? please don't any of > you find out in person!) can push enough current to be dangerous. On the other hand, we routinely experience ESD shocks of multiple kilovolts during a dry winter. The key is that there's not nearly enough energy built up in most of those shocks to convulse your heart (unless it were directly applied, I guess). It is, of course, enough energy to blow up transistors in an IC, and WAY more voltage than necessary to cross a polysilicon barrier. - Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 09:30:07 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:30:07 +0000 Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1962885414-1363271401-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-265766962-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I have what i beleive are school txts for the kim-1 but that wont be the earliest. My point though is yes they would be teaching with processor trainers and kits too. -----Original Message----- From: Murray McCullough Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:32:01 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? Thanks. Murray :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 14 10:31:43 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:31:43 -0600 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/13/2013 10:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Basically my interest in Tubes is limited to Audio. I love Tube Based > stereo's, and at some point in the future I hope to have a *good* tube > Amp to hook up to my Rega turntable! Tubes are cheap ... Big Iron* will get you in the end. Try here, since the US has got out the quality sound. http://vinylsavor.blogspot.ca/ > Zane > > Ben. * Same could be said for computers. PS. Now is good time to find Vintage speakers in the old attics or basements. From jim at photojim.ca Thu Mar 14 10:56:07 2013 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:56:07 -0600 Subject: Wanted: C-64 equip for project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <810DCDD1FB6046E88E130A0028345E3A@8510p> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Star Master > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:04 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Wanted: C-64 equip for project > > Was wondering if anyone had any unwanted working/non-working > Commodore items. I am helping my grandson on a school project. Location? Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 14 12:14:47 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:14:47 -0800 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 9:31 AM -0600 3/14/13, ben wrote: >On 3/13/2013 10:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Basically my interest in Tubes is limited to Audio. I love Tube Based >>stereo's, and at some point in the future I hope to have a *good* tube >>Amp to hook up to my Rega turntable! > >Tubes are cheap ... Big Iron* will get you in the end. >Try here, since the US has got out the quality sound. >http://vinylsavor.blogspot.ca/ I've not seen that blog, thanks! The Portland Area is actually a good area to be in, if you're into Vinyl, quality audio, and film based photography. >* Same could be said for computers. > >PS. Now is good time to find Vintage speakers >in the old attics or basements. Well, I'm listening to what would have been fairly high-end Pioneer speakers plugged into a Pioneer SX-9000 Receiver at the moment. If I had the room in my office I'd have a very nice turntable and reel-to-reel plugged in as well (need to figure out how to pull that off). All gotten for free. The audio equipment is starting to stack up like classic computer gear. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jon at jonworld.com Thu Mar 14 11:51:22 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:51:22 -0400 Subject: Scam alert... Message-ID: <6E0A3395-3FC5-45BB-9829-389D87F672C1@jonworld.com> Hi everyone! Per some advice here I posted locally on craigslist for items wanted. This morning I received a text message saying "click here to see if my items match what you're looking for." ? it was an image hosting site named "imgsend.com" and seemed nearly-legit. I went there from my phone and said "missing plug-in." Odd. I went there from my Mac. It said I needed a plug-in to view GMP-based GIMP images. GIMP doesn't make GMP images. At this point I knew something was wrong and began to break out my google-fu. This is what I learned, after you click to "add plugin" it points you to a website that redistributes GIMP with known malware and spyware. Once you have that installed and visit the site to view your photos, the malware is activated, and likely your banking credentials are stolen. Just something else to be alert for. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 14 12:05:19 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! Message-ID: Please take a peek at http://www.geneb.org/glasstty and let me know what you think. If your browser supports alternate style sheets (In FireFox, it's View->Page Style), you can change the color to green. :) Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jon at jonworld.com Thu Mar 14 12:16:00 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:16:00 -0400 Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2013, at 1:05 PM, geneb wrote: > Please take a peek at http://www.geneb.org/glasstty and let me know what you think. If your browser supports alternate style sheets (In FireFox, it's View->Page Style), you can change the color to green. :) That's awesome! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 12:17:15 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:17:15 -0400 Subject: Scam alert... In-Reply-To: <6E0A3395-3FC5-45BB-9829-389D87F672C1@jonworld.com> References: <6E0A3395-3FC5-45BB-9829-389D87F672C1@jonworld.com> Message-ID: Here's how I browse the web: The latest version of Firefox + NoScript + a few other privacy and cookie blocker extensions on my main machine, with no plugins. This is what I use to access web mail / web banking / etc... I use SumatraPDF as my PDF viewer. I just use the free MS security essentials for AV. Then I have a Windows XP image in VMWare running Firefox along with NoScript, just about every plugin (Flash, Java, Shockwave, Djvu, QuickTime, etc...) and Adobe Acrobat. It has a resident Kaspersky AV scanner running all the time, and McAfee command line does a system scan at boot time. This is what I use to do casual web browsing, watching videos, etc... NoScript takes care of a lot of problems. If I get sent to a web site that has a big "Plugin blocked" icon on it, I know something fishy is going on, especially since I already have every plugin under the sun installed in the VMware browser. I've been playing around with scripting to see if I can get copied URLS to automatically open in Firefox in the VM image. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 14 12:24:04 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Mar 14, 2013, at 1:05 PM, geneb wrote: > >> Please take a peek at http://www.geneb.org/glasstty and let me know what you think. If your browser supports alternate style sheets (In FireFox, it's View->Page Style), you can change the color to green. :) > > That's awesome! > Thanks. I've been wanting to try that ever since the font was relased, but my css-fu wasn't up to the task. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 12:36:07 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:36:07 +0000 Subject: The genesis of Acorn's RISC OS Message-ID: Transcript of a talk that I helped to arrange last year for the RISC OS User Group of London (ROUGOL): -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 12:36:44 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:36:44 +0000 Subject: The genesis of Acorn's RISC OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 March 2013 17:36, Liam Proven wrote: > Transcript of a talk that I helped to arrange last year for the RISC > OS User Group of London (ROUGOL): Aah yes. At some point Gmail mapped Ctrl-End to "Send". Sorry about that. http://www.rougol.jellybaby.net/meetings/2012/PaulFellows/index.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 12:49:01 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:49:01 -0400 Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader In-Reply-To: References: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > The local HP rep brought a (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/hp9830a.html) > 9830... to our high school... and left it there for about 6 weeks... > ...my parents... did did arrange, though, to rent a teletype ASR-33... > ... After I finished high school, and got a job at Tektronix, I ended up > getting a Tektronix 4010 terminal and an acoustic coupler modem... Very cool story. Thanks for sharing it. -ethan From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 14 13:03:47 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:03:47 -0700 Subject: SimH, PDP8 OS/8 and RKLFMT hang Message-ID: I'm running SimH V3.9 on a PC under Windows 7 using the binaries from the primary SimH website. I'm running the OS8 distribution on floppy that is packaged on the Simh site. I attached an 'empty' RK disk drive file as RK0, and tried to run RKLFMT on it to "format" the drive. The RKLFMT program asks its questions (which drives to format), then says "ARE YOU SURE?" and expects a Y or N. If N is typed, the questions about which drives to format are repeated. If Y is typed, the formatting process begins. On real PDP8/e hardware, it all does what it is supposed to...the drive does a bunch of writes, then goes back and reads the sectors to verify that they were written correctly, then prints out a message indicating that the format passes are complete, and then starts over with the "which disks to format" question, at which point you can type ^C to exit. However, in SimH, the program starts up and asks which drives to format, and I say "Y" to drive 0, and "N" to the other 7 drives, then the "ARE YOU SURE?" prompt comes up, and I type "Y", and the Y echoes back, and then it just sits there. On real hardware, it takes about 80 seconds to format a drive. I waited MUCH longer than this to see if the simulated RKLFMT would eventually come back indicating that it had completed. It didn't. I used ^E to interrupt the execution, and stepped through a few instructions, and it appears to be hung in a loop waiting for the disk drive to do something. I checked to see if the disk file holding the emulated RK05 drive had changed in size, and it was still at 0 bytes. The RKLFMT program uses the RK8E disk controller's "WRITE ALL" and "READ ALL" functions to format and verify the drive. These RK8E commands ignore header information on the sectors, and just writes/reads the data, as opposed to the normal READ and WRITE commands that pay attention to the sector header information. I am wondering if perhaps the SimH emulation of the RK8E is flawed in some way such that the READ ALL and WRITE ALL commands don't work properly, causing RKLFMT to fail. I can get the emulated RK05 to work by simply issuing a "ZERO RKA0:" command to OS8, which writes the directory information on the disk, making it accessible to OS8. Has anyone run into this before? It isn't a big deal in terms of usability of emulated RK05s in the PDP 8 SimH implementation, but I'm wondering if it might be a technical detail in the emulation of the RK8E that isn't quite correct. I'd be interesting in hearing anything that folks may have run into or heard about this. Thanks, Rick Bensene From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 14 13:18:25 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <834ADD05-6196-459C-BA01-190D9285BE66@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51410C42.3000103@sydex.com> <834ADD05-6196-459C-BA01-190D9285BE66@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201303141818.OAA09182@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have wondered what the rate of gas infusion through glass is at > STP, i.e. how long before the vacuum is reduced enough to affect tube > parameters. 200 years? 1000 years? 10,000 years? Depends on the gas, among other things. Hydrogen, for exmaple, diffuses annoyingly fast through pretty much anything. (Annoyingly fast for those who want to contain it, at least.) I suspect it also depends on how much getter function is left. The getter's whole point is to capture stray bits of gas; as long as it lasts, it'll be scavenging up any stray molecules that do find their way in. I suspect internal outgassing is more significant than diffusion through the body of the thing, in most cases, though. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Mar 14 13:19:46 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:19:46 +0000 Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice. I like that. On 14 March 2013 17:24, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> On Mar 14, 2013, at 1:05 PM, geneb wrote: >> >>> Please take a peek at http://www.geneb.org/glasstty and let me know what >>> you think. If your browser supports alternate style sheets (In FireFox, >>> it's View->Page Style), you can change the color to green. :) >> >> >> That's awesome! >> > Thanks. I've been wanting to try that ever since the font was relased, but > my css-fu wasn't up to the task. :) > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 14 13:32:42 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The genesis of Acorn's RISC OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > Transcript of a talk that I helped to arrange last year for the RISC > OS User Group of London (ROUGOL): > > > You gotta love The Official Secrets Act. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 13:41:45 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:41:45 -0500 Subject: VT102 In-Reply-To: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130307200659.GA23583@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I might have one when i get to that pile, but if you have a VT101, the only difference between that and a VT102 (other than keycaps, possibly) is the logic board. They are compatable throughout most of the VT1xx series and are easier to find and ship than a completr terminal. Paul On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 2:06 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Second, shorter try, (last one moderated?): anyone have a VT102 they'd > be willing to sell/trade (I have many Q-bus boards)? NE US ideal, but. > Tnx / JW From djg at pdp8online.com Thu Mar 14 14:07:13 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:07:13 -0400 Subject: Help with RK8e-RK05J diagnostics on PDP-8m In-Reply-To: <201303141534.r2EFYMuR082603@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303141534.r2EFYMuR082603@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20130314190713.GA8722@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:26:08AM -0400, Steve Lafferty wrote: > Hi folks, > > Does anyone have the matching documentation (doc) file for a version of RK8e Drive Control Test Diagnostics? I'm trying to debug an RK8e-RK05J setup. The best set of doc and code that I have found is: > > - maindec-08-dhrkb-g-pb.pdf - the G-version doc > G version here http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/ras.rk05;sort=name#DHRKBG.SV Click more to convert to various formats for download. Note that files .DG in the archive are really .SV diagnostics. Several other images have the .DG version. Top of archive if you need other stuff http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Mar 14 14:09:00 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:09:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1363288140.34478.YahooMailNeo@web87802.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> I have lived through the valve era, then transistors and finally integrated circuit amplifiers. Setting fidelity on one side for a moment. I have theory. I am of the opinion that medium by which the sound is conveyed sometimes adds to the performance. ? In the 1950's and 60's I would listen in the UK to Radio Luxembourg and?AFN broadcasting from Europe. They were the only pop stations available in England?well into the 1960's The medium wave distortion would change the audio in all kind of interesting ways. Many's the time I would rush down to the local record shop to buy the latest hit disc (7/6d in those days) Only to find it did not sound the same on my three valve record player. ? The mechanical recordings?up to?1920's and the early electronic systems in the 1930's add a dimension that is just not ?there with a modern band playing the same notes on period instruments. ? So the recording and playback system is an invisible performer that may well add something. ? R ________________________________ From: ben To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, 14 March 2013, 15:31 Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) On 3/13/2013 10:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Basically my interest in Tubes is limited to Audio.? I love Tube Based > stereo's, and at some point in the future I hope to have a *good* tube > Amp to hook up to my Rega turntable! Tubes are cheap ... Big Iron* will get you in the end. Try here, since the US has got out the quality sound. http://vinylsavor.blogspot.ca/ > Zane > > Ben. * Same could be said for computers. PS. Now is good time to find Vintage speakers in the old attics or basements. From go at aerodesic.com Thu Mar 14 14:42:44 2013 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:42:44 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. Message-ID: <51422834.1040206@aerodesic.com> I searching for a paper copy of the proceedings of the 1952 ACM conference in Toronto. Our school library only goes back to 1959. To obtain from the ACM (digitally) would cost several hundred dollars, so I'm looking for a real dead-tree copy to avoid copyright infringement issues. I'm unable to obtain digital access through our library because I'm not a faculty/staff/student and don't see becoming one for this purpose :-) If any of you (I know there a few old farts besides me on this list) could part with a copy (even as a 'loaner') I would greatly appreciate it. Other issues in the late 40s through late 50s are also interesting, but current research is focusing on a few items discussed in this particular volume. The ACM was founded in 1947. I'd pay for this as well as return postage if necessary. Thanks, Gary From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 14 14:43:42 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:43:42 -0600 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <1363288140.34478.YahooMailNeo@web87802.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> <1363288140.34478.YahooMailNeo@web87802.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5142286E.5090204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/14/2013 1:09 PM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > I have lived through the valve era, then transistors and finally integrated circuit amplifiers. > Setting fidelity on one side for a moment. I have theory. > I am of the opinion that medium by which the sound is conveyed sometimes adds to the performance. > > In the 1950's and 60's I would listen in the UK to Radio Luxembourg and AFN broadcasting from Europe. > They were the only pop stations available in England well into the 1960's > The medium wave distortion would change the audio in all kind of interesting ways. > Many's the time I would rush down to the local record shop to buy the latest hit disc (7/6d in those days) > Only to find it did not sound the same on my three valve record player. > They say a odd number of valves gives more distortion :-) Ben. Ducks the flying sofa... From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 14 16:07:12 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:07:12 -0800 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <1363288140.34478.YahooMailNeo@web87802.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5141ED5F.6090306@jetnet.ab.ca> <1363288140.34478.YahooMailNeo@web87802.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:09 PM +0000 3/14/13, R SMALLWOOD wrote: I have lived through the valve era, then transistors and finally integrated circuit amplifiers. Setting fidelity on one side for a moment. I have theory. I am of the opinion that medium by which the sound is conveyed sometimes adds to the performance. In the 1950's and 60's I would listen in the UK to Radio Luxembourg and AFN broadcasting from Europe. They were the only pop stations available in England well into the 1960's The medium wave distortion would change the audio in all kind of interesting ways. Many's the time I would rush down to the local record shop to buy the latest hit disc (7/6d in those days) Only to find it did not sound the same on my three valve record player. The mechanical recordings up to 1920's and the early electronic systems in the 1930's add a dimension that is just not there with a modern band playing the same notes on period instruments. So the recording and playback system is an invisible performer that may well add something. Take a look into Recording Curves, and prepare to go mad as you try to decipher how to play different 78's! Prior to the RIAA Curve used now, basically every manufacturer had their own curve, and their records would sound the best on their equipment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From evan at snarc.net Thu Mar 14 15:17:00 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:17:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. In-Reply-To: <51422834.1040206@aerodesic.com> References: <51422834.1040206@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> >>Our school library only goes back to 1959. You could try the Charles Babbage Institute. They provide scanning services for a nominal fee. http://www.cbi.umn.edu/ From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 14 16:05:00 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:05:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. In-Reply-To: <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> References: <51422834.1040206@aerodesic.com> <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> Message-ID: I have used CBI's services on a number of occasions to procure information from their archives on old calculators, and they are fast, friendly, and very reasonably priced. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 1:17 PM > To: General at bensene.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. > > >>Our school library only goes back to 1959. > > You could try the Charles Babbage Institute. They provide scanning services > for a nominal fee. > > http://www.cbi.umn.edu/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 14 16:37:32 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:37:32 +1300 Subject: The genesis of Acorn's RISC OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Transcript of a talk that I helped to arrange last year for the RISC >> OS User Group of London (ROUGOL): Thanks for that. I recently got an Acorn 4000 and need to incorporate it in my collections page (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm) at some stage. I always like to write a paragraph or two on the background on the machines in there and I know very little of the history of RISCOS or Acorn (apart from BBC stuff). It's also useful knowledge for a future video on the model. Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 14 16:41:03 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:41:03 +1300 Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool. I love the classic look. Terry (Tez) From go at aerodesic.com Thu Mar 14 17:01:06 2013 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:01:06 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. In-Reply-To: <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> References: <51422834.1040206@aerodesic.com> <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <514248A2.8080608@aerodesic.com> I did do a search prior to my email. A search of their 'proceedings' archive showed results back to 1964 while another link to an article from the proceedings led to the portal.acm.org page. Your suggestions were good, however (I've used CBI several times before) so I will make a 'manual' request for information and see where it leads. Thanks, Gary On 03/14/2013 01:17 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> Our school library only goes back to 1959. > > You could try the Charles Babbage Institute. They provide scanning > services for a nominal fee. > > http://www.cbi.umn.edu/ > -- -Gary From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 17:24:06 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:24:06 +0000 Subject: The genesis of Acorn's RISC OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 March 2013 21:37, Terry Stewart wrote: >>> Transcript of a talk that I helped to arrange last year for the RISC >>> OS User Group of London (ROUGOL): > > Thanks for that. I recently got an Acorn 4000 and need to incorporate > it in my collections page > (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm) at some > stage. I always like to write a paragraph or two on the background on > the machines in there and I know very little of the history of RISCOS > or Acorn (apart from BBC stuff). It's also useful knowledge for a > future video on the model. The Wikipedia articles are quite good - a team of RO-loving volunteers gave them a thorough rewrite a couple of years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_RISC_OS Etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Mar 14 17:32:33 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:32:33 +0000 Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have to steal that css file for retrobbs.cortex-media.info which has needed a facelift for about a decade... On 14 March 2013 21:41, Terry Stewart wrote: > Cool. I love the classic look. > > Terry (Tez) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 16:24:29 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:24:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: from "Josh Dersch" at Mar 13, 13 04:01:44 pm Message-ID: > This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the fuse > (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting brighter. > > Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a > 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently > when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned > :). Not quite.. Remeember the fuse is in series iwt hthe laod and carries the load current. THink of how a fuse works. A fuse melts when the current through it gets too high. The fuse wire melts, of course,becuase it gets too hot. And that heat comes from the power -- I^2*R -- disipated in the fuse wire. So a fuse must have some resistance and disipate power to work. In general, lower-current fuses have higher resistanec than thigh current ones. So your 2.5A fuse probably had a higher resistane than the correct 10A one, and thus got hot at hte notmal operating current. Having a higher resistane, it also dropepd more voltage at that current than the correct oen would have done. > > Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses > carefully. Dre I admit that I once spent a good few minutes attemtpign t ofind out why a coplece PSU weas giving no outputs at all only for find that some rotten sod ahd 'borrowed' the fuse from the mains plug (UK BS1363 mains plugs ahve an inte4rnal cartridge fuse). ARGH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 16:30:13 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:30:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 13, 13 03:08:26 pm Message-ID: > > Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum > tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic > and forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and > expect to get more at some point in the future. > > A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. Valves, ar of course, completely sealed (or the vacuum would escape). So they are actually pretty 'hardy'. Obviously avoid mechanical shock wwhcih could crack the glas senvelope. And if you haev nay US metal tubes, remmeebr that the metal can _is_ the vacuum envelope, so avoid anythign that might corrode it. Actually, a corrosive atmosphere is nt ogood for the glass-metal seals on the leadout wires or pins of other vavles. So don't keep them in salt water or anythign liek that :-) I would also avoid excessive vibration (which could damage the intenral elecrtrod structor) or sudden changes in temperature (which could crack the envelope or damage a seal). Other than that there';s not a lot to worry about. I'bve got valves from the 1920s which are sitll perfectly OK but which have had no special storage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 16:33:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:33:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51410A2F.7060205@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Mar 13, 13 04:22:23 pm Message-ID: > Also though you can peer thru the glass at the insides some of them can > be hard to figure out the number of in 40 or 60 years of storage, so > make sure that you keep them such that their legends don't get rubbed > off in storage. Some of them will have the numbers applied to the glass > via some process that really is indelible short of breaking the glass, > and I've seen some with some sort of white ink that didn't last the > lifetime of the tube (was messed up when I took it out in the 60's) > Luckily in some cases you can read the chassis to determine the numbers. There was a rumour doing the rounts about 50 years ago that at least one manufacturer used water-soluble markings on the valves. The idea was that old valves could not be washed and cleaned up and then sold as new ones. Certianly soem markigns do come off very easily. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 16:18:41 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:18:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <20130313153854.V81874@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 13, 13 03:40:00 pm Message-ID: > > > > What's the big deal? You want to change something, you pull the > > > relevant cards out of the deck, punch replacements, put 'em in, and > > > you're done. > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > And there was I thinking you needed a soldering iron and a box of 1N4148s.... > > rearranging and/or adding cards in a deck is not the same as > rearranging and/or adding cards in a DEC. True enough, but I am more likely to _modify_ the M792 than replace it. Hence the box of 1N4148s... (The M792, I hope, is the diode matrix boot ROM). FWIW, the following conversation (about me) occured between 2 friends of mine : "A mad freind of mien has just got a PDP11" "How can you call _anyone_ with a PDP11 'mad'?" "Well, he's a few cards short of a full DEC" -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 16:52:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:52:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS4100 IC In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 13, 13 06:38:53 pm Message-ID: > (I had the pinout) Sure, but others might not have... > > Another list member (Rob) found the ref in a 1970/1 TI book. > Apparently, it's part of a character generator series, the 4103 is > the off-the-shelf standard ASCII version in the series. Right... > > As Rob pointed out, the 9830 one must be special order to HP though, > to obtain the lazy-T cursor, unless there's some alternative tortured As I seaid, the data sheet i have doesn't give the font pattern, so I didn't know i the 'lazy T' was a standard cahracter or not. > way they're injecting the T into the display scanning that I'm not > seeing. There isn't, AFAIK. The HP9830 display is ratehr differnet to that in the other 9800 machiens in that it is partly hardware driven. The CPU has a 16 bit shift regiater used for I/O (it's on the 09810-66511 PCB). When drivign the dispaly, al l16 bits are used for data, a separate circuit genrates a strobe signal. Now, the HP9830 has a 32 character display and the hardare dispalys 2 characters simultaneously, 16 locations apart (so 0 and 16, 1 and 17, etc). The 16 bits are used as follows : 6 bits for the code of one of the characters (remember upper case only, so 64 characters is enough) 6 bits for the code of the other chracter 4 bits to select where to put them (location of theleft hand character). But the system firmware has to scan all 16 pairs of locations, otuputting the right character codes. There is, AFAIK, no way to dispaly anything otehr tha nthe patterns in the chracter genrator. One other trap fo the unwary. The display is physically a 32 chracter 5*7 dot matrix unit. That is, 160 columns by 7 rows. _Electrically_ it's wired as 0 columns by 28 rows, this saves driver stages. Therefore drfectinve row drivers stages will affect only part of a dot row and defective column drivers will affect 4 colunmns on the display. > > Yes, the-1-of-5 select did suggest it was an intended character > generator (although in principle it could be a straight ROM depending > upon how much ROM space one is willing to waste, although (back on > the other hand) being that wasteful would have been pushing it for > ROM sizes of the period, and the 9830 has the binary encoding right > there anyways). At the time yo did not wast 27/32 of your ROM capactiy. You might now,m if you had to repalce the chracter gernatore, but back then you used verybit you had. Yo ucertianly didn't add a decoder to waste ROM space ;-) > > The earlier data only indicates MOS levels (for TMS 4103 JC/NC). Interesting. My databook cleaerly says 'fully TTL compatible' whih I take to mean 5V levels (and not that you can drive it with open-collector 74xx parts pulled up to 12V). Whether the later versions could stand 12V on the inputs I don't know. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 17:09:37 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:09:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 14, 13 00:25:32 am Message-ID: > It seems unlikely I'll ever end up with one, so I'm happy to have found > this emulator, updated less than a year ago... > THey do turn up on Ebay from time to time. They often sell for quite high prices, but a battered, non-working, one can be affordable. The main 'battered' state is a cracked or worse keyboard bezel. It's plastic, and it gets _very_ brittle with age. If you have the bits you cna stick them together iwth dichloromethane and then use the cotton fabric trick to streghten it, but it wil lstill be very brittle. Alas I doubt that repalcement bezels could be economically made. The 'non-working' is less of a problem. The only cusome ICs in there are the ROMs. These are HP mask-programmed ROMs, and they are odd in other ways. It is posisble to kludge in EPROMs with a bit of extra circuitry, and anyway the ROMs are not the most common failure point. The RAMs are 1103s, which are hard to find, but not impossivle. Jaut abotu everythng else is TTL, although some of the 74Hxxx parts are not trivial to get now. The main problem is fiding the fault. I feel there are 4 things you need to debug an HP9800. The schematics; the CPU microcrode listing; a logic analyser; a brain. It's a bit-serial machine, so you do need to be able to capture add examine the bitstreams in and out of the registers. And I find that one fo the best ways fo find out what hte machine is doing (so you can compare it with what it should eb doing0 is to conect the lgoic analyser to the microcode address liens (available on the test conenctor on top of the 09810-66513 CPU Control PCB [1]) and see what microcode routines are being eeecuted. You cna check it's fetching instructions, you can make sure it's not stuc in the I/O loop or addres indrection loop, things like that. [1] HP call it the 'microprocessor', but that term has a totally different meanign to the one we are all familiar with. as regards basic tropubleshoorting, what I do is : Tke everythign out out and look for burnt/misisng parts. Clean and oil the cooling fan, etc Power up the mains transofmrer only and check the AC output voltages. Fit the PSU PCB and check the DC voltages. Fit the CPU clock PCB (09810-66512) and check the master cloc, BitCLk and muCLk are all running correctly. Fit the rest of the CPU, the memroy address and data boards, ROM, RAM and display. Power up. If I am lucky (I never have been) I get the right display. Most likely I get a blank displane. The,,, Check fior DispStb on the display control edge connector. If it's present, then the most likely problem is inthe display logic. If it's absent, then check the CPU clocks are still running (if not, the darn thing might be stuck i na memroy refresh cycke), then check that the nemory controlelr state machine is running, that hte microcode is running, etc. Then trace the microcode. In genral you pick up the problem farily quickly if you un=derstnad the machine. Be warned that the first 200-or-so machines had a _very_ differnet memory system to later ones. It is very unlilkey you will see onme of these, in fact it's possible none exist (since if any part of thememyo system failed, the board-sapping repair involved replacing all the memroy and memroy control boards). But it's taht design that appears in the well-known patent. More likely you'll conme across a machine where the memory timing is handled by a state machine.v Bebugging that is 'fun'... Incidetnally, HPCC (Handheld and Portable COmputer CLub) ahs published a series of articles on repairign these fine machines. After minor correction and tidying up, it's likely they will be released as a single document. > http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/files/go9800/ It's a fun emulaotr, but the real thing is much mroe interesting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 17:16:44 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:16:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <201303140509.BAA27011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 14, 13 01:09:08 am Message-ID: > Then I spoke with a guitar tech about using 12AX7s, I think it was, in > guitar effects, and was wondering where they got the high voltage. He > told me B+ in such circuits is, IIRC, 12V. It makes sense - power > delivered is not really a consideration in such things - but it was a > bit of a surprise to me.... A low anode volatage is likely to cause distortion at quire moderate signal nlevels, which might be an advantage for that application. Certianly you cna run some, if not, most small signal valves at low anode votlages 912V or 24V). Power tyoes are non-starter, although I have heard of people using TV line output valves ('sweep tubes'?) with a 12V anode voltage to drive headphones. Philips made a few 12V anode types for car radios (with a single transitor as the audio outpu stage) that were known to be selected versions of more nornma, types (ECH83 -- ECH81 nad EBF83 -- EBF89 IIRC). Other companies made similar valves, including soem where you applied a +ve voltagr to the first grid to act as an acceleerator. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 14 17:23:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:23:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader In-Reply-To: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 13, 13 11:09:38 pm Message-ID: > Rob and I have been discussing 9830s lately (and thanks to Rob I have > one to work on here) and we realised, somewhat to our surprise, that Good luck :-). I am currently helping a guy in ythe Netherlands with his 9830. So far we've found a defective 74H106 on the mmory addres PCB that was causign the memroy control state machine to go crazy, and the na defective 7400 that was causing the memory contorller to run all; the time, I am now waiting for his next set of results... > So just how widespread or prevalent were 9830s in schools - did > anyone else here encounter the 9830 in highschool (or gradeschool)? Not i nthe UK. Over here schools rarely had computers bnfore the RML380Z or the BBC micro. However, in the mid 1970s my father met somebody at Salford University. I ws shown soemthing that was described as a 'calculator'. Now, I was young at the time and don't rememebr it too well, but I am pretty sure it was an HP9830. It might ahve been a 9821 (but that's much rarer), it might have been a Wang wit hthr tiem drive in the same sort of place, but on balance I think it wasa 9830. And I have rough evidence that they were not unocmmon in other UK _universities_ at the time. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 18:50:48 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:50:48 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <379BEA0E-3FDE-4D56-B971-8714A4D0756D@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2013, at 6:16 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Then I spoke with a guitar tech about using 12AX7s, I think it was, in >> guitar effects, and was wondering where they got the high voltage. He >> told me B+ in such circuits is, IIRC, 12V. It makes sense - power >> delivered is not really a consideration in such things - but it was a >> bit of a surprise to me.... > > A low anode volatage is likely to cause distortion at quire moderate > signal nlevels, which might be an advantage for that application. For guitar effects pedals, certainly. I've seen quite a few schematics online that claim to be tube distortion schematics which run a 12AU7 (ECC82) at 12V. Guitar amplifiers are quite different in design from hi-fi amps; among other things, they're often run open-loop, which gives you a hell of a lot more power from your output tubes and far fewer stability concerns (until you get to the microphonics issue, which is significant for an amplifier that sits atop a >=100W speaker output). Distortion is, of course, not generally viewed as undesirable for guitar amps, at least not most of them. - Dave From a50mhzham at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 18:44:54 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:44:54 -0500 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> Message-ID: <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> I have zillions of old tubes pulled from radios and TVs by a guy whose estate was sold-- except for the tubes. Nobody wanted them. I'm looking for a simple project I can build (like a stereo amp) but without the tight tolerances and high-end ultra-purist attitude I seem to find whenever I look into it. I just want to build something that will perform a basic function and look cool glowing in the dark. I also have grand-dad's old Heathkit tube tester, so I have that going for me anyhow. I've built kits before, but I'm not necessarily looking for a kit. A decent set of plans with some suggestions for physical layout and mounting, for guys like me who came of age in the 555 timer / 74xx TTL age. -T At 05:03 PM 3/13/2013, you wrote: >On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > wrote: > > http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/tubes.htm > >Nice. I have a few old 12V tubes (NOS from a science lab that was >decomissioned a few years back that had some parts going back to the >mid-1950s - ancient carbon composite resistors and all). I'm looking >at that 12V battery-powered headphone amp project as an easy >get-started project. I think I have everything on hand except the >tube socket. > >-ethan 489 . [Commentary] All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike --and yet it is the most precious thing we have. --Albert Einstein a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 18:50:07 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:50:07 -0500 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> References: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5142626b.0647310a.2f1f.2f26@mx.google.com> At 06:46 PM 3/13/2013, you wrote: >On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a > > 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently > > when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned > > :). > >Good thing to look out for! If I were to nitpick, though, I'd probably >point out that it's not that the fuse is starting to draw a lot of >current, but rather that it's starting to drop a lot of voltage as the >I in the IV term of Ohm's law goes way above its intended range. The >glowing is a tangential result (P = I^2*R). Good point. At least he didn't have any LERs on the power supply besides. Encountering an SED is also AVBT. (LER: Light Emitting Resistor. Ohm's law has been broken.) (SED: Smoke Emitting Diode. Don't break Ohm's law. It will get its revenge.) (AVBT: A Very Bad Thing, vs ABT: A Bad Thing. Marth a Stewart was not consulted.) 878 . [Government]I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --Will Rogers a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 19:14:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:14:19 +0000 Subject: Fun Power Supply repair tip In-Reply-To: <5142626b.0647310a.2f1f.2f26@mx.google.com> References: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570@gmail.com> <5142626b.0647310a.2f1f.2f26@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 14 March 2013 23:50, Tom wrote: > > Good point. At least he didn't have any LERs on the power supply besides. > Encountering an SED is also AVBT. > > (LER: Light Emitting Resistor. Ohm's law has been broken.) > (SED: Smoke Emitting Diode. Don't break Ohm's law. It will get its revenge.) > (AVBT: A Very Bad Thing, vs ABT: A Bad Thing. Marth a Stewart was not > consulted.) Excellent. Thanks! Promptly nicked for Twitter. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pet4032 at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 19:26:20 2013 From: pet4032 at gmail.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:26:20 -0400 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51426AAC.90609@gmail.com> On 3/14/2013 5:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > True enough, but I am more likely to _modify_ the M792 than replace it. > Hence the box of 1N4148s... (The M792, I hope, is the diode matrix boot ROM). > > FWIW, the following conversation (about me) occured between 2 friends of > mine : > > "A mad freind of mien has just got a PDP11" > "How can you call _anyone_ with a PDP11 'mad'?" > "Well, he's a few cards short of a full DEC" > > -tony > ROFLOL! That is a good one! Cheers!, Bryan From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 19:37:58 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:37:58 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2013, at 19:44, Tom wrote: > I have zillions of old tubes pulled from radios and TVs by a guy whose estate was sold-- except for the tubes. Nobody wanted them. Beware: many of them may be difficult to find data on, and may also be not-so-useful for audio. Many probably will be fine, though. > I'm looking for a simple project I can build (like a stereo amp) but without the tight tolerances and high-end ultra-purist attitude I seem to find whenever I look into it. I just want to build something that will perform a basic function and look cool glowing in the dark. A nice, simple one to start with is an RIAA phono preamp. There are plenty of no-frills tube schematics online that should get you started; failing that, try looking for the Williamson amplifier schematic, which was intended to be built by amateurs. Good books I have enjoyed: Valve Amplifiers, by Morgan Jones (which covers a lot of theory quite well) and its companion, Building Valve Amplifiers (which covers a lot of the tricky details involved in building realistic ones quite nicely). Another good one is Valve & Transistor Amplifiers by John Linsley Hood, though that is more a historical review than it is a manual. As always, and as others have said, BE CAREFUL around plate voltages. Mains voltages are plenty deadly before you multiply them by a factor of three or four. I've been shocked by various high voltages and I don't recommend it at all; quite frankly, I'm probably lucky to be alive from some of them. > I also have grand-dad's old Heathkit tube tester, so I have that going for me anyhow. > > I've built kits before, but I'm not necessarily looking for a kit. A decent set of plans with some suggestions for physical layout and mounting, for guys like me who came of age in the 555 timer / 74xx TTL age. Suggestions above. I don't have any specific ones I can recommend from the Internet at the moment, but I might suggest either the preamp I suggested above or a guitar amp, since they have very simple circuits (and you are far less likely to care if its fidelity is lacking). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 14 19:59:00 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:59:00 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> On 03/14/2013 03:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > A low anode volatage is likely to cause distortion at quire moderate > signal nlevels, which might be an advantage for that application. Although there were some low-voltage space-charge tubes for automotive use, just about every auto radio that I've ever seen that uses those throws in the towel and uses a good old power transistor for the final audio stage. I recall building a code-practice oscillator that used nothing more than a 6.2VAC filament transformer for its power supply. The tube used, IIRC, was a 6SL7 dual triode. It did make use of an interstage transformer for the audio feedback loop and drove a pair of high-impedance headphones for a somewhat audible tone. Generally speaking, however, it makes design a lot easier if you employ a real high-voltage plate supply. As far as audio goes, it's my impression that solid-state amplifiers tend to use a lot more negative feedback than did even the ultra-linear tube versions. But then there are those who believe that any feedback is a crime against nature and run class A power triodes with zero feedback for a couple of watts of power. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 14 20:17:42 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:17:42 -0700 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <048EDAAB-7307-464E-BFE5-A524291DF4D3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 14, at 5:37 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 14, 2013, at 19:44, Tom wrote: > >> I have zillions of old tubes pulled from radios and TVs by a guy >> whose estate was sold-- except for the tubes. Nobody wanted them. > > Beware: many of them may be difficult to find data on, If I may suggest, the go-to place for tube data is Frank's Electron tube pages: http://www.tubedata.org/ I think there may have been 1 or 2 I haven't found there, but IME you have to be getting pretty obscure for it not to be there. He seems to be aiming for comprehensiveness, not just popular tubes or just what audiophiles want. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 20:37:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:37:22 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> References: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2013, at 8:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > As far as audio goes, it's my impression that solid-state amplifiers tend to use a lot more negative feedback than did even the ultra-linear tube versions. Well, you can get a lot more gain out of even a cheap transistor than you can from a good preamp tube. The feedback comes free, at the price of some stability/ flatness of response headaches. Of course, there's also the fact that when transistors distort, they sound subjectively "nastier" than tubes do, so it makes a lot of sense to use lots of feedback. You can also approach the parts-per-million THD with a solid-state amp, something you'd never even get close to with a tube amplifier (not an audio one, anyway). > But then there are those who believe that any feedback is a crime against nature and run class A power triodes with zero feedback for a couple of watts of power. In a guitar amp, common practice is to maximize gain largely by removing the feedback path (it also lets you use much simpler transformers for the speaker, which is great news for manufacturers). Of course, most guitar amp speakers have 3db points not much further from 5 KHz and 200 Hz, so fidelity isn't the main concern. Most of the higher-power ones are class AB, but there are a few famous class A amp models. I don't know why anyone would run in class A for more power, since it's generally a lot less power efficient, but you do get rid of some crossover distortion (in exchange for some odd-harmonic clipping distortion). - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 20:52:21 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:52:21 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> References: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Although there were some low-voltage space-charge tubes for automotive use, > just about every auto radio that I've ever seen that uses those throws in > the towel and uses a good old power transistor for the final audio stage. Yeah...that was the point. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 21:00:02 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:00:02 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Beware: many of them may be difficult to find data on, and > may also be not-so-useful for audio. Many probably > will be fine, though. ??? Tube data is easy to find, even for very obscure types. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 21:14:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:14:54 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <109D2ECB-09A9-4408-89A5-6949C4B8FB1C@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2013, at 10:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Beware: many of them may be difficult to find data on, and >> may also be not-so-useful for audio. Many probably >> will be fine, though. > > ??? > > Tube data is easy to find, even for very obscure types. Huh. I used to have the hardest time. It's been a while since I've had to look. Perhaps the tube data sites have gotten a lot better since 2006ish? For example, it took me a full day back then to track down data on the 6C4, but now it just pops up on Google (I had to search more than I would have expected to find a decent datasheet with curves, but it's there at least). The worst part is that I didn't think that 2006 was that long ago until I just did the math. - Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Mar 14 21:37:13 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:37:13 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <201303141818.OAA09182@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51410C42.3000103@sydex.com> <834ADD05-6196-459C-BA01-190D9285BE66@cs.ubc.ca> <201303141818.OAA09182@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <51428959.6050906@verizon.net> On 03/14/2013 02:18 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I have wondered what the rate of gas infusion through glass is at >> STP, i.e. how long before the vacuum is reduced enough to affect tube >> parameters. 200 years? 1000 years? 10,000 years? > Depends on the gas, among other things. Hydrogen, for exmaple, > diffuses annoyingly fast through pretty much anything. (Annoyingly > fast for those who want to contain it, at least.) > > I suspect it also depends on how much getter function is left. The > getter's whole point is to capture stray bits of gas; as long as it > lasts, it'll be scavenging up any stray molecules that do find their > way in. I suspect internal outgassing is more significant than > diffusion through the body of the thing, in most cases, though. > > One area where gassing can occur is around the pin and other lead seals. Getter is most cases work best at operating power. 4-400s, 3-500Z need to run at dull red plate to make the gettering effective. If there are any ceramic metal power tubes they also become gassy and Need to be put into service carefully (usually 24 hours under filament and then under bias enough to heat the tube but at lower than normal voltage. I used to do the 90day rotation of 4cx3000 and 4cx10000 in commercial FM service. General care, vibration is bad, shock is worse, heat and cold can stress the pin/lead seals. Use care to not wipe off markings. Do not scratch as that can lead to envelop cracking with temperature changes. With care many tubes last lifetimes, others no matter what, they die. I have a lot of old radios with original tubes functioning at nominal levels and likely continue for many more years. Allison From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 22:53:58 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:53:58 -0400 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: <109D2ECB-09A9-4408-89A5-6949C4B8FB1C@gmail.com> References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> <109D2ECB-09A9-4408-89A5-6949C4B8FB1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Huh. I used to have the hardest time. It's been a while > since I've had to look. Perhaps the tube data sites have > gotten a lot better since 2006ish? For example, it took > me a full day back then to track down data on the 6C4, > but now it just pops up on Google (I had to search more > than I would have expected to find a decent datasheet > with curves, but it's there at least). > > The worst part is that I didn't think that 2006 was that > long ago until I just did the math. Well...yes, lots of things have changes in the past 6 or 7 years... Anyway...6C4?...really? Data for that tube has been in damn near every post-War tube databook ever published in the US! -- Wil; From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 14 23:18:34 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:18:34 -0600 Subject: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01ce202c$59455950$0bd00bf0$@com> <5142626c.0647310a.2f1f.2f28@mx.google.com> <3295D37C-0B95-480B-A5F5-308B97C94EBC@gmail.com> <109D2ECB-09A9-4408-89A5-6949C4B8FB1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5142A11A.2090100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/14/2013 9:53 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Huh. I used to have the hardest time. It's been a while >> since I've had to look. Perhaps the tube data sites have >> gotten a lot better since 2006ish? For example, it took >> me a full day back then to track down data on the 6C4, >> but now it just pops up on Google (I had to search more >> than I would have expected to find a decent datasheet >> with curves, but it's there at least). >> >> The worst part is that I didn't think that 2006 was that >> long ago until I just did the math. > > Well...yes, lots of things have changes in the past 6 or 7 years... > > Anyway...6C4?...really? Data for that tube has been in damn near every > post-War tube databook ever published in the US! Give the guy a break, the tube manuals are hiding somwehere under IBM 701 boxes. > -- > Wil; > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 01:51:38 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 06:51:38 +0000 Subject: Forget UPS was Re: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: References: <1363107750.8639.BPMail_high_carrier@web121403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201303121719.NAA07378@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <513F6D3B.7020700@neurotica.com> <520472E9-88F7-4929-ABA9-21508F2F399D@gmail.com> <513F8540.80807@neurotica.com> <05A8F7D351584D88A3FA7B0EF5BCCF65@JimArnottPC> Message-ID: - On Mar 14, 2013 1:15 PM, "geneb" wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>>> >>>>> TECO for two please. >>>> >>>> >>>> 029! >>> >>> >>> I'd have to upgrade (I only have an 026). >> >> >> I'll see your 029, and raise you a 129. :-) >> > I'm going to wait till you guys start showing off your limestone disks and begin debating the ideal face angle for your chisels. :) > Well the editor tool box for the Hartree Differential Analyzer contains a couple of imperial size Allen keys, an assortment of cogs and some lengths of half inch shaft. (it's a mechanical analog computer) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From steve at tronola.com Thu Mar 14 10:26:08 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:26:08 -0400 Subject: Help with RK8e-RK05J diagnostics on PDP-8m In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303141534.r2EFYMuR082603@mx1.ezwind.net> Hi folks, Does anyone have the matching documentation (doc) file for a version of RK8e Drive Control Test Diagnostics? I'm trying to debug an RK8e-RK05J setup. The best set of doc and code that I have found is: - maindec-08-dhrkb-e-pb.bin - the E-version code - maindec-08-dhrkb-g-pb.pdf - the G-version doc - A table of certain E to G version addresses but many appear to be wrong --- Note that the dhrkb part identifies the program and the dash-letter, the version. I also have the code for dhrkb versions B and C but not the doc. The problem is that to make sense of a detected error, you have to relate a PC location reference printed by the diagnostic to the program listing provided in the doc. Finding the G-version code or the doc for versions B, C or E, would solve the immediate problem. The original doc files might have been named in the format: maindec-08-dhrkb-e.d, for example. The specific error which I am seeing with dhrkb-E is that it halts at location 5340, with AC=0 after printing: Status Register Error PC=0552 GD=6000 CM=3000 DA=0040 ...where PC is the location where the error occurred, GD the expected value, CM the command register value and DA the disk address register. The issue I am finding with the table is that the location 0552 doesn't appear there and all the locations in the range of 400-1000 appear to fall in basic user interface routines in the G-version listing. Thus they don't appear to be valid diagnostic tests. The table was found here: http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/papertapes/maindec/maindec-08-dhrkb-eg.txt Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks, Steve L. http://www.tronola.com/ At 05:46 AM 3/14/2013, you wrote: >Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip (David Riley) > 2. Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip (Brent Hilpert) > 3. Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip (Jim Stephens) > 4. An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (mc68010) > 5. more books FFS (David Griffith) > 6. 5151 hunt... (geneb) > 7. Re: Xerox 820-II & external FDC (Dave Land) > 8. Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (Jim Stephens) > 9. Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (mc68010) > 10. Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (Brent Hilpert) > 11. Re: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader > (Brent Hilpert) > 12. Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (Glen Slick) > 13. Re: VT102 (John Wilson) > 14. Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (mc68010) > 15. Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 (mc68010) > 16. Education & vintage/classic computing (Murray McCullough) > 17. Vacuum tube and semiconductor cross ref and current > replacements (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) > 18. All about CRT tubes, and HP semiconductor PN cross ref > (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) > 19. Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) (Christian Kennedy) > 20. Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) (William Donzelli) > 21. Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) (Jim Stephens) > 22. Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) (Dave McGuire) > 23. Re: VT102 (Mouse) > 24. Re: Education & vintage/classic computing (Brent Hilpert) > 25. Re: Education & vintage/classic computing (Dave Caroline) > 26. Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) (Chuck Guzis) > 27. Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) (David Riley) > 28. Re: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! (David Riley) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:46:03 -0400 >From: David Riley >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip >Message-ID: <48A05E00-8483-447F-A775-D8AE03032570 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a >> 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently >> when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned >> :). > >Good thing to look out for! If I were to nitpick, though, I'd probably >point out that it's not that the fuse is starting to draw a lot of >current, but rather that it's starting to drop a lot of voltage as the >I in the IV term of Ohm's law goes way above its intended range. The >glowing is a tangential result (P = I^2*R). > > >- Dave > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:03:29 -0700 >From: Brent Hilpert >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >On 2013 Mar 13, at 4:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hey all -- >> >> This'll probably rank as a "duh" moment for most of you but I >> thought I'd >> share (mostly because it amused me): >> >> I was trying to figure out why the unregulated 8VDC line of my >> SWTPC 6800's >> power supply kept dipping so suddenly under moderate load (and why >> it would >> keep falling and falling as long as I left it running that way...) >> >> The overall behavior was: >> >> - Power up with minimal load (just the motherboard w/it's onboard >> regulator): 8V line was fine at about 8.7V. >> - Add up to two RAM cards and the 8V was still at around 8.3 or so. >> - Add a third card and 8V drops to 6.5V and continues to drop >> steadily over >> time. >> >> This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the >> fuse >> (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting >> brighter. >> >> Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- >> it was a >> 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). >> Apparently >> when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson >> learned >> :). >> >> Fuse replaced and all is happy. So, the lesson is: check your fuses >> carefully. > >Interesting fault mode, but I wouldn't express that as the fuse >"drawing a lot of current". That fuse should be the one in the +8V >line and it looks like what was happening is your cards were drawing >current just short of blowing the fuse. As the fuse filament heated >up it's resistance increased, so more of the +8 supply voltage was >dropping across the fuse, reducing the +8V output level. (Overall >current should actually be going down). > >Yay, another SWTPC 6800 (I have one too). > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:07:32 -0700 >From: Jim Stephens >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Fun Power Supply repair tip >Message-ID: <514114C4.8030905 at jwsss.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >On 3/13/2013 4:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> This had me scratching my head. Then I happened to notice that the fuse >> (F1 on the 12V supply board) was glowing a dull orange and getting brighter. >> >> Well, turns out that someone (me!) had installed the wrong fuse -- it was a >> 2.5A fuse where a 10A was required (F2 takes the 2.5A, btw). Apparently >> when fuses start to give out they draw a lot of current -- lesson learned >If you had that behavior, it sounds like you were using a fusetron time >delay fuse. > >The fuses will run at 100% overload indefinitely, handle 10x for a spike >and blow greater than that. > >if you had one of the fuses w/o the slow blow, then it would have run >for a while and then blown as well, but you don't get the more precise >overload time delay on that type of fuse. The fusing element may blow >by overload somewhere in the conductor, or with an overload, the solder >at each end of the fuse envelope may fail and it will blow then. > >It is interesting that you saw a change in current going thru the fuse >though, sort of indicates the fuse wasn't working so well. Also with >that amount of heat into the phenolic fuse holder, you can probably >expect it to be very fragile and fail at some point due to the spring >load in it. I've seen fuse holders which didn't have glowing fuses, but >overloaded ones fail that way. > >Never had one I knew first hand had an incandescent fuse in it though, >that is a bit worrisome. > >jim > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:40:56 -0700 >From: mc68010 >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: <51411C98.5060606 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > >In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a clean >looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks like it >was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is beautiful if your >into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) >From: David Griffith >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: more books FFS >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII > > >I have two more books free for shipping. The Fortran 77 one is gone. >Here's what I have: > >*Motorola CMOS/NMOS Special Functions Data (1986) >*Turbo C Reference Guide (1987) from Borland >*UNIX Primer Plus by Waite Group Staff (1983, Softcover) >*Introduction to WordStar by Arthur Naiman (1983, Paperback) >*WordStar with Style by Roger White (1983, Paperback) >*The Illustrated CP/M WordStar Dictionary with MailMerge and SpellStar >*Word Processing on the Kaypro by Peter A. McWilliams (1983, Paperback) > >Take one or many. > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:09:24 -0700 (PDT) >From: geneb >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: 5151 hunt... >Message-ID: >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII > >Found one thanks to a listmember. > >Still chasing a 5150 compatible keyboard. > >tnx. > >-gene > > >-- >Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:29:02 -0600 >From: Dave Land >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Xerox 820-II & external FDC >Message-ID: <514127DE.9070407 at landcomp.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >On 3/13/13 5:59 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> On 3/12/2013 5:43 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>>> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 3/11/2013 11:37 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >>>>>> Hi, I received a Xerox 820-II mainboard. I've found that does not >>>>>> have a FDC >>>>>> on board and that the 37-pin connector used to connect the floppy >>>>>> disk it >>>>>> seems to have a bus and its own protocol to talk to an external FDC >>>>>> board >>>>>> outside. Is there anybody who knows more and is it there a way to >>>>>> try to >>>>>> connect and operate the drive with this mainboard? >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> Having cleaned the heads, about every other disk going through a box >>>>> of 8" 820 disk, sthere is nothing in the drive other than the drives >>>>> and a power supply. I am not sure if the 820-II is different but, I >>>>> doubt it. The cable just splits off to each drive. Everything is on >>>>> the mainboard. >>>> >>>> My 82O-II does indeed have its floppy controller on a daughterboard. >>>> I suspect this is a different arrangement from the original 820 aka >>>> Ferguson Bigboard. >> >>> I am sure you are right but, I don't see anything but a power supply >>> with the floppy drives in this video. Looks identical to the non II >>> floppy units I had. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9OwwolhLuE >> >> I think we're talking about different cases. The disk controller is >> clearly visible in the closeup of the computer itself. It may have been >> a different PCB in the floppy vs. hard-disk system. >> >> On a related subject, I would love to get my hands on an 820-II with >> hard drive. Had two lined up at different points but both sellers >> flaked out and stopped answering e-mail. Wonder if there's some sort of >> distortion field projected from these units? >> >> If anybody has one they'd like to part with, I can do cash or trade. >> >> Steve >> >> > >Don't guess I'll be getting rid of mine for a while, after all the crap >I went through to get some software on to it, LOL! Besides, I don't know >how well the hard drive would stand up to any kind of shipping stress by >the usual gorillas from USPS, Fedex, etc. > >-- >Dave Land >Land Computer Service > >Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:52:26 -0700 >From: Jim Stephens >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: <5141578A.2070907 at jwsss.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > >On 3/13/2013 5:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a >> clean looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It looks >> like it was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it is >> beautiful if your into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 >> >> >I had two 4/280's like that, wish I could have held on to them. Also was >at an auction with 8 systems in a complex from a database development >company. Gorgeous hardware for them, crap execution on the s/w. > >I fired up the systems and ran backups for the auctioneer and myself of >their development systems. > >was pretty cool. > >jim > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 9 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:36:17 -0700 >From: mc68010 >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: <514161D1.6060700 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >On 3/13/2013 8:34 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> I don't have those panels to close up the rear of the rack. I've only >> powered up mine a few times since I picked it up a couple of years >> ago. I should really find a new home for it in the Seattle area. -Glen > >I have never even seen those rear panels before. I have seen so many 3/4 >280 systems over the years but, they have always been uncovered in the >back. That's the cleanest 3/280 ever. I wonder if it was actually used. >First thing I would probably have done back then is take off the rear >panels and toss them. What a pain to have to unscrew all that to get at >anything. Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a >keylock there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a >x/280 case. If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the >backplane and tape drive. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 10 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:56:46 -0700 >From: Brent Hilpert >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: <61715879-FC8E-4D41-87D9-981228252E49 at cs.ubc.ca> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:52 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> On 3/13/2013 5:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> In all my years of messing with Sun gear I have never seen such a >>> clean looking and neat 3/280. Even back in the early 90's. It >>> looks like it was just unboxed. I wouldn't pay $2k for it but, it >>> is beautiful if your into Sun 3 boxes. It's almost Sun 3 porn. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151011714493 >>> >>> >> I had two 4/280's like that, wish I could have held on to them. >> Also was at an auction with 8 systems in a complex from a database >> development company. Gorgeous hardware for them, crap execution on >> the s/w. > >Ran across a nice racked Sun 2 system with open-reel 9-track in a >storage closet at a local U just a couple years ago (pretty sure it >was a 2). I don't know now what has happened to it. > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 11 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:09:38 -0700 >From: Brent Hilpert >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: HP 9830 computer and HP 9860 mark-sense card reader >Message-ID: <1988FAD9-F175-4F9A-A6FE-996B6187D8D7 at cs.ubc.ca> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Brent Hilpert >> wrote: >>> As Rob pointed out, the 9830 one must be special order to HP >>> though, to >>> obtain the lazy-T cursor, unless there's some alternative tortured >>> way >>> they're injecting the T into the display scanning that I'm not >>> seeing. >> >> Thank you for mentioning this. I've asked on the list now and >> again about >> a computer I used c. 1976 that had a "lazy-T cursor". I was quite >> young >> at the time and it was only brought to our school for a special >> occasion, >> so my memories are quite fuzzy about it, but having now googled with >> some useful keywords, I'm reasonably certain that the device I was >> trying >> to describe was an HP 9830 with an HP 9860 mark-sense card reader. >> >> It seems unlikely I'll ever end up with one, so I'm happy to have >> found >> this emulator, updated less than a year ago... >> >> http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/files/go9800/ >> >> Thanks again for the very helpful nudge in precisely the correct >> direction! > >Well that's very prescient, you're answering a question I was just >about to ask. > >Rob and I have been discussing 9830s lately (and thanks to Rob I have >one to work on here) and we realised, somewhat to our surprise, that >we had both encountered the 9830 in school in the mid-70's, in >geographically very-separated regions - Rob in the Montreal area and >me in the Vancouver area. > >Both instances had the mark-sense card reader too. Everybody sat at >their desk in class and pencil-marked off their first program (10 >PRINT ""..), lined up at the computer and submitted their >card deck for batch-style processing. Keeners could use the machine >after hours and type and edit directly on the keyboard and LED >display (whoo-hoo!). > >So just how widespread or prevalent were 9830s in schools - did >anyone else here encounter the 9830 in highschool (or gradeschool)? > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:12:44 -0700 >From: Glen Slick >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >On Mar 13, 2013 11:06 PM, "mc68010" wrote: >> Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a keylock >there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a x/280 case. >If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the backplane and >tape drive. > >On the 4/280 rack I have I'm pretty sure that is a front panel key switch >which is wired to the power controller. > >-Glen > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 13 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:32:41 -0400 >From: John Wilson >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: VT102 >Message-ID: <20130314063241.GA1823 at dbit.dbit.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18:26AM -0400, Mouse wrote: >>I'm particularly curious because I have a terminal emulator which, >>among other things, can be told to emulate something moderately close >>to a VT100. I'd like to get its wrapping behaviour right; this >>complicates the question because now I have to decide what I think >>"right" is. :-) > >I know the feeling! > >>A quick look at my code indicates that I don't quite do any of those. >>The only thing I see explicitly clearing the "wrap now" flag is tab, > >Bad news: unless I'm missing something, tab doesn't clear the wrap flag on >the VT100 or 101, and on the 102 it clears it only if the cursor moves (but >not if it was already at the right margin). > >If you want any cases tested on a real 100, 101, or 102, let me know! >It'll be easy until I get sick of having them in a row on my living room >floor. > >John Wilson >D Bit > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 14 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:11:24 -0700 >From: mc68010 >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: <5141781C.7020400 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >On 3/13/2013 11:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> On Mar 13, 2013 11:06 PM, "mc68010" wrote: >>> Anyone know about the keylock on the front ? I've never seen a keylock >> there before. Nothing really worth getting at on that side of a x/280 case. >> If it only held the front panel on it would only protect the backplane and >> tape drive. >> >> On the 4/280 rack I have I'm pretty sure that is a front panel key switch >> which is wired to the power controller. >> >> -Glen > >Hmm fuzzy memories coming back. Maybe I do remember them. It just went >to some header on the power distribution deal right ? > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 15 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:26:32 -0700 >From: mc68010 >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 >Message-ID: <51417BA8.2080604 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > >On 3/13/2013 9:52 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> I had two 4/280's like that, wish I could have held on to them. Also >> was at an auction with 8 systems in a complex from a database >> development company. Gorgeous hardware for them, crap execution on >> the s/w. >> >> I fired up the systems and ran backups for the auctioneer and myself >> of their development systems. >> >> was pretty cool. >> >> jim > >I have had a few x/280 systems over the years but, nothing so original >as this one. They are hard to find places to keep. I got rid of all of >mine too. Back in the 90's people would beg you to take them away. The >racks they wanted to keep. I once built a stack out of 12 slot cases >3x2 on the bottom and 3 units tall. 18 in all. There was once a picture >of me standing on top that has been lost to the ages. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 16 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:32:01 -0400 >From: Murray McCullough >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Education & vintage/classic computing >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting >the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first >microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? > >Thanks. > >Murray :) > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 17 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:01:01 -0500 >From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" >To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Subject: Vacuum tube and semiconductor cross ref and current > replacements >Message-ID: <010701ce202d$de0dda30$9a298e90$@com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >http://www.worldtubecompany.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=TSL > > > > _____ > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 18 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:18:01 -0500 >From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" >To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Subject: All about CRT tubes, and HP semiconductor PN cross ref >Message-ID: <010c01ce2030$3e2fc480$ba8f4d80$@com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >http://www.hparchive.com/Bench_Briefs/HP-Bench-Briefs-1981-03-05.pdf > > > > > >Cindy Croxton > >Electronics Plus > >1613 Water Street > >Kerrville, TX 78028 > >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > >AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6166 - Release Date: 03/12/13 > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 19 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:02:10 -0700 >From: Christian Kennedy >To: "Zane H. Healy" >Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >On 13 Mar 2013, at 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum >> tubes? > >They can get gassy. If the getters aren't nice and shiny the tube is gone; if the are it still makes sense (especially on things that run with significant B+) to bring them up on heater only and let them bake for a while. > >-- >Dr. Christian Kennedy >chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 >http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 >PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 >"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 20 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:10:22 -0400 >From: William Donzelli >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? Are >> these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about >> until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some >> point in the future. > >Temperature extremes are really not a problem, simply because they are >made for such extremes during normal operation. Moisture can be a >problem in extreme cases, but normally not much of an issue either - >mostly the boxes suffer (and metal tubes, I suppose). The only thing >that really is bad for tubes is salt spray. Don't store your tubes in >a seaside shack. > >-- >Will > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 21 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:22:23 -0700 >From: Jim Stephens >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) >Message-ID: <51410A2F.7060205 at jwsss.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >On 3/13/2013 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum >> tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and >> forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and >> expect to get more at some point in the future. >> >> A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >A lot of them have traces of cesium or other odd agents that were used >to absorb the last bits of O2 after the vacuum was applied. > >they otherwise are glass, copper, steel, and micah, and other odd >materials which should not age much. I'd be careful of storing them to >rattle around for fear of damage. > >Also though you can peer thru the glass at the insides some of them can >be hard to figure out the number of in 40 or 60 years of storage, so >make sure that you keep them such that their legends don't get rubbed >off in storage. Some of them will have the numbers applied to the glass >via some process that really is indelible short of breaking the glass, >and I've seen some with some sort of white ink that didn't last the >lifetime of the tube (was messed up when I took it out in the 60's) >Luckily in some cases you can read the chassis to determine the numbers. > >Do you have a tester stored with the tubes? Do you have them sorted by >NOS vs. pulls? that is about the only other thing to think about. and >the other bits, capacitors and other parts won't age as well as the >tubes if you have bought and stored them. > >Jim > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 22 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:30:04 -0400 >From: Dave McGuire >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) >Message-ID: <51410BFC.2090604 at neurotica.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >On 03/13/2013 07:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? >> Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten >> about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get >> more at some point in the future. >> >> A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. > > Just don't break them (and they're tougher than they look) and they'll >be fine. I have tubes that I've stored pretty much like that, from >attic to basement to storage locker...since I was a kid, some of them I >took out of junked TVs 35 years ago, and I use them for repairs today. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 23 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:51:54 -0400 (EDT) >From: Mouse >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: VT102 >Message-ID: <201303140751.DAA27636 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >>> A quick look at my code indicates that I don't quite do any of >>> those. The only thing I see explicitly clearing the "wrap now" flag >>> is tab, [...] >> Bad news: unless I'm missing something, tab doesn't clear the wrap >> flag on the VT100 or 101, and on the 102 it clears it only if the >> cursor moves (but not if it was already at the right margin). > >Yes, I noticed your description implied that. > >But I'm clearly misreading my code. It looks to me as though my >wrapping flag causes a wrap even if the cursor is no longer at the >right margin at the time the second printable character arrives, but >testing indicates that's not actually how it works; the behaviour I'm >seeing appears to be more like your description of the VT102 than >anything else. > >I clearly need to look at that code more closely. > >> If you want any cases tested on a real 100, 101, or 102, let me know! >> It'll be easy until I get sick of having them in a row on my living >> room floor. > >Heh. I know the syndrome. :/ > >/~\ The ASCII Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 24 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:56:04 -0700 >From: Brent Hilpert >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Education & vintage/classic computing >Message-ID: <52D54486-2AA5-4F97-B06D-24F6FA9618D5 at cs.ubc.ca> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >On 2013 Mar 13, at 9:32 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > >> I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting >> the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first >> microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? > > >The HP 9830 just being discussed might be one for your consideration, >depending on how you want to classify a microcomputer. It's a >desktop, 'personal' computer with built-in BASIC but the CPU is >implemented in TTL, not a single-chip microprocessor. Introduced >1972, encountered by personal experience in computer/programming >course high school 1976. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 25 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:00:45 +0000 >From: Dave Caroline >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Education & vintage/classic computing >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Murray McCullough > wrote: >> I have a question that concerns vintage/classic computing intersecting >> the education world: Can anyone tell me what was the first >> microcomputer used in an education setting for teaching purposes? > >Define micro... >In the early days the (mid 1960's) colleges and schools were building >their own computers as >was discussed on this list a few months ago. > >for mini sized >1940's 1950' >http://www.dcs.bbk.ac.uk/about/history/ > >Dave Caroline > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 26 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:31:14 -0700 >From: Chuck Guzis >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) >Message-ID: <51410C42.3000103 at sydex.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >On 03/13/2013 04:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? >> Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten >> about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get >> more at some point in the future. >> >> A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. > >Nothing that I'm aware of eats vacuum tubes--and I've got some pre-WWII >stuff that's still ticking right along. I'd be careful with excess >moisture if I had a bunch of old lighthouse tubes or any other oddball >metal-to-glas stuff. > >But, aside from mechanical shock, tubes are about as inert as one can get. > >--Chuck > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 27 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:38:35 -0400 >From: David Riley >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >On Mar 13, 2013, at 19:08, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> Do any special precautions need to be taken with storing vacuum tubes? Are these something that can simply be tossed in the attic and forgotten about until needed? I recently got a fair number, and expect to get more at some point in the future. >> >> A lot of the ones I got are simply dumped in an old metal tool box. > >Other than "be careful with them", not much. I like to wrap >mine in paper, preferably wax paper; it keeps its shape >well, which keeps the little nubbins on top of the miniature >noval tubes from fracturing. Take the same care when >transporting as you would with expensive light bulbs. >If any still have the cartons, I like to keep them in there >(wrapped in paper to immobilize). > >- Dave > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 28 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:42:26 -0400 >From: David Riley >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: More fun stuff-bring out the vacuum tubes! >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus >> wrote: >>> http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/tubes.htm >> >> Nice. I have a few old 12V tubes (NOS from a science lab that was >> decomissioned a few years back that had some parts going back to the >> mid-1950s - ancient carbon composite resistors and all). I'm looking >> at that 12V battery-powered headphone amp project as an easy >> get-started project. I think I have everything on hand except the >> tube socket. > >If you need octal or noval ones, I have a few nice ceramic ones >that I'd be glad to send one or two of. Otherwise, they're still >relatively easy to find; I like triodeelectronics.com because >they've done nicely by me in the past, but there are literally >dozens of tube vendor sites out there. > > >- Dave > > > >End of cctech Digest, Vol 115, Issue 17 >*************************************** From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 13:00:59 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:00:59 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11-era UART In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The early PDP-11 uses a ?DEC 1801 UART? in multiple modules. I?ve had no luck identifying a comparable chip that could be substituted when doing repairs as there?s a remarkable dearth of information regarding the characteristics of this part, excepting the pin-out as seen in engineering drawings. (No, I haven?t yet tried pin-out matching ... next step.) Ideally the part would be both HW and SW compatible, but clearly SW compatibility is key! Does anyone have any experience with this part, repairing boards where this part has failed, or other words-of-wisdom to offer? Thanks, paul From earl at retrobits.com Thu Mar 14 13:43:10 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:43:10 -0700 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? Message-ID: Hi all, I need another project like I need a hole in the head. However, I am definitely on the prowl for a way to store and retrieve information in a more physical fashion. Something like a tape punch/reader, or a mark-sense card reader. (I'd have to find or print some mark-sense cards...) Back in the day I used punch cards, mark-sense cards, and paper tape. There's a certain "coolness" to actually seeing and holding the data in a physical format. I think it would be great for my kids to see, and/or help me build a physical storage device, to give them a more visceral sense of computing. You can't exactly see the bits in a flash memory chip. All that said - I've looked for homebrew projects of this type, and haven't come up with any great candidates. I'm not the most skilled person at mechanical stuff, so I do seek a starting point for ideas or plans. Anyone have any comments/suggestions? Goal would be a method to store (could be as simple as #2 pencil), a method to read, and a serial RS232 interface (that part I can build). Thanks! - Earl From go at ao-cs.com Thu Mar 14 14:24:25 2013 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:24:25 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. Message-ID: I searching for a paper copy of the proceedings of the 1952 ACM conference in Toronto. Our school library only goes back to 1959. To obtain from the ACM (digitally) would cost several hundred dollars, so I'm looking for a real dead-tree copy to avoid copyright infringement issues. I'm unable to obtain digital access through our library because I'm not a faculty/staff/student and don't see becoming one for this purpose :-) If any of you (I know there a few old farts besides me on this list) could part with a copy (even as a 'loaner') I would greatly appreciate it. Other issues in the late 40s through late 50s are also interesting, but current research is focusing on a few items discussed in this particular volume. The ACM was founded in 1947. I'd pay for this as well as return postage if necessary. Thanks, Gary -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From go at ao-cs.com Thu Mar 14 16:42:08 2013 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:42:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1952 ACM conference proceedings. In-Reply-To: <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> References: <51422834.1040206@aerodesic.com> <5142303C.1040909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <51424430.6070102@ao-cs.com> I did do a search prior to my email. A search of their 'proceedings' archive showed results back to 1964 while another link to an article from the proceedings led to the portal.acm.org page. Your suggestions were good, however (I've used CBI several times before) so I will make a 'manual' request for information and see where it leads. Thanks, Gary On 03/14/2013 01:17 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> Our school library only goes back to 1959. > > You could try the Charles Babbage Institute. They provide scanning > services for a nominal fee. > > http://www.cbi.umn.edu/ > -- -Gary From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 18:35:17 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:35:17 -0400 Subject: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 Message-ID: > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:17:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: An amazing looking Sun 3/280 > I built *dozens* of such racks from early 1993 to late 1995, filled > with Sun 3/50 and 3/60 boards that were netbooted. This was a > progenitor of what we now call "blade systems". Of course Sun swore it > wouldn't work (nobody knows less about Sun computers than Sun...never > seen anything like it) and of course someone else took the credit, but > it's documented at least. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA I stripped dozens of processor boards from 3/60 systems that were then sold to your employer. -- Michael Thompson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 02:51:00 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 03:51:00 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11-era UART In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > The early PDP-11 uses a ?DEC 1801 UART? in multiple modules. I?ve had no > luck identifying a comparable chip that could be substituted when doing > repairs as there?s a remarkable dearth of information regarding the > characteristics of this part, excepting the pin-out as seen in engineering > drawings. (No, I haven?t yet tried pin-out matching ... next step.) I haven't checked schematics myself, but the TR1602 dates back to 1971. It's a 40-pin UART, the first, IIRC. Datasheets aren't hard to find for it. The receive bus is pins 5-12, the transmit bus is pins 26-33, and for power, +5 is on pin 1, -12 is on pin 2 and GND is on pin 3. -ethan From wilson at dbit.com Fri Mar 15 03:10:20 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:10:20 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11-era UART In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130315081020.GA22845@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 03:51:00AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> The early PDP-11 uses a ?DEC 1801 UART? in multiple modules. > >I haven't checked schematics myself, but the TR1602 dates back to >1971. It's a 40-pin UART, the first, IIRC. > >Datasheets aren't hard to find for it. The receive bus is pins 5-12, the >transmit bus is pins 26-33, and for power, +5 is on pin 1, -12 is on pin 2 >and GND is on pin 3. I just looked at a couple of schematics and the pinout looks similar/identical to the GI AY5-1013 too. Might be easier to find since they sure used to be plentiful (Radio Shack sold them, and the AY3-1015 5V-only version too which I think is pin-compatible). Software compatibility is almost meaningless since everything is brought out to individual pins (there's no register file like in an 8250), so bit order etc. is up to the designer. IIRC the parity/etc. controls are on transparent latches so you can make that be a writable register, or else enable it all the time and use DIP switches etc. (which makes more sense for typical DEC applications). John Wilson D Bit From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 04:58:27 2013 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:58:27 +0100 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Earl Evans wrote: [...] > I need another project like I need a hole in the head. However, I am > definitely on the prowl for a way to store and retrieve information in a > more physical fashion. Something like a tape punch/reader, or a mark-sense > card reader. (I'd have to find or print some mark-sense cards...) [...] > All that said - I've looked for homebrew projects of this type, and haven't > come up with any great candidates. I'm not the most skilled person at > mechanical stuff, so I do seek a starting point for ideas or plans. Anyone > have any comments/suggestions? > > Goal would be a method to store (could be as simple as #2 pencil), a method > to read, and a serial RS232 interface (that part I can build). > > Thanks! > > - Earl Hi Earl, one method that I could think of would be like some 80's magazines: print barcodes onto letter paper. Use an old CueCat (the proprietary-but-much-hacked not-so-free giveaway from Radio Shack) to read the data back in. There is no hardware other than what you are likely to already have for the output side. If you don't have a CueCat, I'm sure a small amount of components can be hacked together to make a barcode reader in the "pen-drag" fashion. Or if you have a scanner, you could effectively do giant 8.5x11 QR codes. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org :: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Mar 15 06:22:05 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:22:05 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11-era UART In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130315112205.GA27109@beast.freibergnet.de> Paul Birkel wrote: > The early PDP-11 uses a ?DEC 1801 UART? in multiple modules. I?ve had no > luck identifying a comparable chip that could be substituted when doing > repairs as there?s a remarkable dearth of information regarding the > characteristics of this part, excepting the pin-out as seen in engineering > drawings. (No, I haven?t yet tried pin-out matching ... next step.) > > > > Ideally the part would be both HW and SW compatible, but clearly SW > compatibility is key! > > > > Does anyone have any experience with this part, repairing boards where this > part has failed, or other words-of-wisdom to offer? > > > > Thanks, > > > > paul The Eastern Block TESLA MHB1012 is also a compatible Part, have a few of them. There is no SW Compatibility at all since the part is in no way programmable, every detail is configured trough control signals. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 15 07:43:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > Cool. I love the classic look. > Thanks! For those interested, the font and the story behind it can be found here: http://sensi.org/~svo/glasstty/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 15 07:48:29 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > I might have to steal that css file for retrobbs.cortex-media.info > which has needed a facelift for about a decade... > > On 14 March 2013 21:41, Terry Stewart wrote: >> Cool. I love the classic look. >> There are three - mono.css, green.css and yellow.css. The at the top is important as well or the style sheets won't work. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 15 07:55:52 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, William Donzelli wrote: >> Although there were some low-voltage space-charge tubes for automotive use, >> just about every auto radio that I've ever seen that uses those throws in >> the towel and uses a good old power transistor for the final audio stage. > > Yeah...that was the point. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those PC motherboards that had a tube amp on the board for the sound output... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 09:54:51 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:54:51 -0400 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9E3124EB-5D2C-4947-9D79-3ADD9C96D13B@gmail.com> On Mar 15, 2013, at 8:55 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Although there were some low-voltage space-charge tubes for automotive use, >>> just about every auto radio that I've ever seen that uses those throws in >>> the towel and uses a good old power transistor for the final audio stage. >> >> Yeah...that was the point. > > I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those PC motherboards that had a tube amp on the board for the sound output... They were pretty gimmicky, actually. You can't get a whole lot of gain out of a single 12AX7 (especially if you're using it to amplify both channels, so you only get one triode per channel), so essentially they were using the tube to distort the sound. You'd probably get much better audio quality with a high-end, low-noise 24-bit sound card running into a proper tube preamp. They were kinda cool, I guess, but I think the actual benefit was much more along the lines of window dressing than actual audio quality. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 15 10:38:10 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <9E3124EB-5D2C-4947-9D79-3ADD9C96D13B@gmail.com> References: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> <9E3124EB-5D2C-4947-9D79-3ADD9C96D13B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 15, 2013, at 8:55 AM, geneb wrote: > >> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>> Although there were some low-voltage space-charge tubes for automotive use, >>>> just about every auto radio that I've ever seen that uses those throws in >>>> the towel and uses a good old power transistor for the final audio stage. >>> >>> Yeah...that was the point. >> >> I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those PC motherboards that had a tube amp on the board for the sound output... > > They were pretty gimmicky, actually. You can't get a whole lot > of gain out of a single 12AX7 (especially if you're using it > to amplify both channels, so you only get one triode per > channel), so essentially they were using the tube to distort > the sound. You'd probably get much better audio quality with > a high-end, low-noise 24-bit sound card running into a proper > tube preamp. > > They were kinda cool, I guess, but I think the actual benefit > was much more along the lines of window dressing than actual > audio quality. I agree completely, however it's still stupidly cool. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 15 14:21:38 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:21:38 -0400 Subject: CueCats, was Re: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514374C2.7030009@neurotica.com> On 03/15/2013 05:58 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > one method that I could think of would be like some 80's magazines: > print barcodes onto letter paper. Use an old CueCat (the > proprietary-but-much-hacked not-so-free giveaway from Radio Shack) to > read the data back in. > > There is no hardware other than what you are likely to already have > for the output side. If you don't have a CueCat, I'm sure a small > amount of components can be hacked together to make a barcode reader > in the "pen-drag" fashion. I think I still have a few CueCats if anyone wants them, free for the cost of shipping. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Fri Mar 15 14:45:46 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:45:46 -0400 Subject: ex-Military Console... Message-ID: Hi everyone, Anyone familiar with these? A FOAF picked up a few at a surplus auction. My friend took one apart and hacked the AT keyboard and trackball to work with a Mini-ITX PC, but the guts of these are all 300VDC to 35VDC converters, among other things. The LCD seems to be 800x600. http://imgur.com/a/t1eS9 I'm figuring it could be made into a fun console with swiping some insides out (or even a dedicated MAME box/console, especially with the trackball. Think Centipede.) -Jon From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 15:08:02 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:08:02 -0500 Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's odd in my testing is Firefox (19.0) isn't using a truetype font so the top header comes up with the wrong spacing (but funny and accurate to some lol). IE it looks better but I'm not 100% sure I'm seeing the right font. The links (first 3 at least) on the left seem to be invalid though. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 15 15:23:50 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New look for retroarchive.org! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > What's odd in my testing is Firefox (19.0) isn't using a truetype font so > the top header comes up with the wrong spacing (but funny and accurate to > some lol). IE it looks better but I'm not 100% sure I'm seeing the right > font. The links (first 3 at least) on the left seem to be invalid though. > Because it's hosted off the retroarchive.org site, the links will not work because they're all relative, not direct. This is what it should look like: http://www.geneb.org/glasstty/retroarchive.png g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From filipmaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 15:26:38 2013 From: filipmaj at gmail.com (Filip Maj) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay Message-ID: Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151012639827 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 15 15:00:33 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:00:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: from "Earl Evans" at Mar 14, 13 11:43:10 am Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > I need another project like I need a hole in the head. However, I am > definitely on the prowl for a way to store and retrieve information in a > more physical fashion. Something like a tape punch/reader, or a mark-sense > card reader. (I'd have to find or print some mark-sense cards...) > > Back in the day I used punch cards, mark-sense cards, and paper tape. > There's a certain "coolness" to actually seeing and holding the data in a > physical format. I think it would be great for my kids to see, and/or help > me build a physical storage device, to give them a more visceral sense of > computing. You can't exactly see the bits in a flash memory chip. > > All that said - I've looked for homebrew projects of this type, and haven't > come up with any great candidates. I'm not the most skilled person at > mechanical stuff, so I do seek a starting point for ideas or plans. Anyone > have any comments/suggestions? > > Goal would be a method to store (could be as simple as #2 pencil), a method > to read, and a serial RS232 interface (that part I can build). It's probably easiest to make an opticla punched tape reader. Optical sensing is a lot easier than any form of mechanical sensing, and if you can't get phototranssitors small enoguh to put on 0.1" spacing for the read head, you could always use optical fibr to route the ligth from the read head to the phototransistors. There's some historical precident for that -- IIRc the well-know Elliot optical take reader used glass rods to route hte ligth from teh ead head hols to OCP71s. The advantaeg of tape over cards is that you can sue the sprcket track to genrate a strobe pusle. With cards, you would noramlly note when the elading edge of the card went past a sensor and then read the columns after the card had moved a given distance. This requries a much more precise drive mechanism, and one that won't slip. As for dring the tape, either pull it through by ahd or use a capstan/pinch roller to feed it. For the latter, the pinch rolelr from a VCR would eb a reasoanble startign point, you could make the capstan in a good home workshol (I have no idea what facilites you have). It only gets hard if you want ot be able to stop the tape on a cchracter. The punch is goign to be a lot harder. Even a hand punch -- one ofthoseblocks with holes and a pin you push through to make a nole is not essy to make. You need ot drill the holes accurately (position and diameter) and you need to make an punch pin. Again _possible_, but not trivial. Does it have to be a well-known format? I am wonderign if you could make a mark-sensing card reader that required a timing park on each column of the card. Tht would get round the accurate drive mechanism problem, you could sense the marks optically. And of course the (manual) writing device is a pencilIf you _insist_ on making that yourself, I am quite shure you could make charcoal, and that would make suitable marks on the card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 15 15:09:34 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:09:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <51427254.1040005@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 14, 13 05:59:00 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/14/2013 03:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > A low anode volatage is likely to cause distortion at quire moderate > > signal nlevels, which might be an advantage for that application. > > Although there were some low-voltage space-charge tubes for automotive > use, just about every auto radio that I've ever seen that uses those > throws in the towel and uses a good old power transistor for the final > audio stage. Absolutely. There were 12V-anode valves for the frequency changer and IF stages. These did not have 'space charge grids' normally. I came acorss one audio driver valve that did ahve a space charge grid (12K5 or something?) but it didn't drive the speaker direcrily. It drove a (germanium) power transsitor. Of course older cer radios were fully voalves (includign the sudio output stage), but they had a vibrator and setp-up transformer to get about 250V fro mteh car battery. Anyone else remeember the 0XZ4 rectifier? Common is such car radios. > > I recall building a code-practice oscillator that used nothing more than > a 6.2VAC filament transformer for its power supply. The tube used, > IIRC, was a 6SL7 dual triode. It did make use of an interstage > transformer for the audio feedback loop and drove a pair of > high-impedance headphones for a somewhat audible tone. A number of UK magazies published 'experiement@ projects i nthe 1950s that powered the vlave heaters from a mains transformer but got the anode votlage my half-wave rectifying the mains -- no isolation. And soem fo those projects used headphoens. A little bit of isulation breakdown and you could find you'd made a very effective electric chair... > > Generally speaking, however, it makes design a lot easier if you employ > a real high-voltage plate supply. Sure. It's not hard to do. -tony From rachael at telefisk.org Fri Mar 15 15:28:47 2013 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 21:28:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Hi, > > I am in the process of working on a new Amiga game, but I have the > graphics saved in .PNG format. I could convert them to the much > easier to decompress .IFF format, but .PNG image save many more > bytes (e.g image is 15KB saved as an .IFF vs. 9KB as a .PNG). > > I have sucessfully decoded all the easy stuff, but am currently trying > to decode the IDAT chunk (where the image data is stored). > > The format of the data is defined as follows (straight out of the RFC1951 > Deflate Compression document available online): > > If you support amigaos 3.x and newer, you can just use the datatype.library, it will open any format you have the datatypes installed for and give you an object to work with. If you are aiming for older versions of amigaos, there are libpng on aminet http://aminet.net/search?query=libpng . regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 15 15:47:00 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:47:00 -0500 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Filip Maj Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:27 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151012639827 Can I ask what makes this thing worth $300 plus $250 in shipping? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6177 - Release Date: 03/15/13 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 15 16:08:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:08:15 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> References: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> Message-ID: It's easily worth $300, but $250 in shipping is absurd. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Mar 15, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Filip Maj > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:27 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay > > Here is the link: > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151012639827 > > Can I ask what makes this thing worth $300 plus $250 in shipping? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6177 - Release Date: 03/15/13 > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:10:51 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:10:51 -0400 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <5141352E.2070802@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <5141352E.2070802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0301DC9E-7275-447F-9144-A34FA96B988A@gmail.com> On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > There is a very good library for working with PNG: libpng. > > http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html > > Most likely the answer is in its source code. It would save you a lot of time just to use that library, too. Source, yes. It's probably not a terrible candidate for using wholesale on Amiga (both it and zlib, which it uses for compression/decompression, are fairly lightweight), but for specific purposes, a custom implementation may be faster and/or smaller. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:17:06 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:17:06 -0400 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi all, > > I need another project like I need a hole in the head. However, I am > definitely on the prowl for a way to store and retrieve information in a > more physical fashion. Something like a tape punch/reader, or a mark-sense > card reader. (I'd have to find or print some mark-sense cards...) I'd love to see how to solve this problem - having recently connected the dots about the HP 9830 I used as a kid, I see Doug Jones has a high-res image of a blank card (http://www.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/collection/hp9320-2051big.gif) so in theory, one could have a print-run on suitable-weight card stock, or with a more gentle feed/scanning mechanism, laser-print blanks. > Back in the day I used punch cards, mark-sense cards, and paper tape. > There's a certain "coolness" to actually seeing and holding the data in a > physical format. I think it would be great for my kids to see, and/or help > me build a physical storage device, to give them a more visceral sense of > computing. You can't exactly see the bits in a flash memory chip. Agreed. > All that said - I've looked for homebrew projects of this type, and haven't > come up with any great candidates. I'm not the most skilled person at > mechanical stuff, so I do seek a starting point for ideas or plans. Anyone > have any comments/suggestions? > > Goal would be a method to store (could be as simple as #2 pencil), a method > to read, and a serial RS232 interface (that part I can build). The HP 9320-2051 cards have timing marks. That really helps vs an IBM Hollerith card that uses a constant-rate feed mechanism and timing from the front edge to locate the data. One idea is to have a microcontroller (Arduino with nootropic design Video Experimenter shield or a Raspberry Pi with a USB web cam, etc) positioned such that it sees a vertical slice of the card, filtered through a red gel to obscure the printed background, and when two timing ticks are visible (detected via either camera image decoding or perhaps a pair of spaced phototransistors to a "trigger" input), snap a tall, narrow frame that represents one column and look for the dark spots in the right places and turn that into an ASCII character and emit it out the serial port (both the Arduino and the Raspberry Pi can do this). One could also just take a full frame image (if high enough resolution, and this is where the Raspberry Pi w/Webcam might do better than an Arduino with a low-res real-time NTSC decoder) then sift through the pixels for the edges of the card and the timing tracks and spit out the decoding of the now-aligned dark marks in the data region. With the printed timing track, I can imagine a hand-fed slot that accepts commercially-printed card-stock or *perhaps* laser-printed high-weight office paper. Hand-fed is possible to contemplate since the data is aligned with visible clocking and feed speeds wouldn't be required to be constant. There's already Python code out there for decoding full-frame imaged IBM Hollerith cards. It shouldn't be too difficult to adapt that to a web-cam-based full-frame HP 9320-2051 scanner. That method might be too RAM-intensive for a small AVR processor, but any sort of ARM-based appliance (Pogoplug, Shivaplug...) that can talk to a USB camera can probably handle it. So there's two approaches - build a "column-at-a-time" scanner or build a full-frame scanner. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:17:51 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:17:51 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> References: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> Message-ID: On Mar 15, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > Can I ask what makes this thing worth $300 plus $250 in shipping? Rarity and the combination of weight and distance, respectively. I don't actually know what RX02s normally sell for, but the only other ones on eBay at the moment are listed for a lot more than $300 (though they cost less to ship to the US, because they're not in Canada). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:19:59 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:19:59 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> Message-ID: <73C0765D-E654-4DC5-85BE-3FA90D988F92@gmail.com> On Mar 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > It's easily worth $300, but $250 in shipping is absurd. Remember that eBay is doing the shipping calculation for the seller, who is in Canada. It's going to pop up with an absurdly high value, especially if customs enters into it. For me (in Philadelphia), it comes up as $300, which seems odd given that I'm probably closer to Southern Ontario than Cindy is in Texas. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:26:18 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:26:18 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > It's easily worth $300, but $250 in shipping is absurd. Sadly, shipping from Canada is absurd. I got a free PET 2001 board from a cbm-hackers list member c. 2005, and the shipping was $35, over $10/lb from Toronto to Ohio. :-/ -ethan From xmechanic at landcomp.net Fri Mar 15 16:47:20 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:47:20 -0600 Subject: ex-Military Console... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514396E8.3070202@landcomp.net> On 3/15/13 1:45 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Anyone familiar with these? A FOAF picked up a few at a surplus auction. My friend took one apart and hacked the AT keyboard and trackball to work with a Mini-ITX PC, but the guts of these are all 300VDC to 35VDC converters, among other things. The LCD seems to be 800x600. > > http://imgur.com/a/t1eS9 > > I'm figuring it could be made into a fun console with swiping some insides out (or even a dedicated MAME box/console, especially with the trackball. Think Centipede.) > > -Jon > > Oooo! I want one! Very industrial looking. :D -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:49:22 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:49:22 -0500 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I had remembered someone doing a similar punch card reader with an arduino but it's not quite that direct http://codeincluded.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/punchcard-reader-movie.html This person is using a digital camera to read the cards vs reading the dots in a linear scanning fashion. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 15 17:09:49 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:09:49 -0600 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo at web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>, Andrew Burton writes: > I have sucessfully decoded all the easy stuff, but am currently trying > to decode the IDAT chunk (where the image data is stored). Why aren't you using libpng? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 17:11:57 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:11:57 -0400 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > I thought I had remembered someone doing a similar punch card reader with > an arduino but it's not quite that direct > http://codeincluded.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/punchcard-reader-movie.html That's the Python approach to the card image decoding I was thinking of. http://codeincluded.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/punchcard-reader-software.html -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 15 18:05:18 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:05:18 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> On 03/15/2013 01:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > Anyone else remeember the 0XZ4 rectifier? Common is such car radios. And noisy (in the RF sense) as the dickens. Ran very hot, too. It had a half-wave cousin, the OY3 (IIRC). B-supplies for auto radios seemed to come in a couple of flavors--gas cold-cathode rectifier, traditional hot-cathode rectifier, and synchronous vibrator rectifier--as well as an occasional plug-in semiconductor replacement for the miserable OZ4. I don't recall seeing a selenium rectifier in such rigs, however. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 15 18:09:21 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:09:21 -0700 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5143AA21.4060504@sydex.com> On 03/14/2013 11:43 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > I need another project like I need a hole in the head. However, I am > definitely on the prowl for a way to store and retrieve information in a > more physical fashion. Something like a tape punch/reader, or a mark-sense > card reader. (I'd have to find or print some mark-sense cards...) There shouldn't be much "back in the day" in the US at least. The last time I voted by mail last November, the ballot was a mark-sense card. The equipment should certainly be available, at least in the USA. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 15 20:16:46 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retroarchive update! Message-ID: The new VT220 font style sheets have been activated for the main site. I've also got the latest backup (2007) of Don Maslin's boot disk and ROM image archive online. EVERYTHING is now available! As time permits, I'll get the other pages moved over to the new style sheet. tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From xmechanic at landcomp.net Fri Mar 15 21:07:35 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:07:35 -0600 Subject: Retroarchive update! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5143D3E7.3050400@landcomp.net> On 3/15/13 7:16 PM, geneb wrote: > The new VT220 font style sheets have been activated for the main site. > > I've also got the latest backup (2007) of Don Maslin's boot disk and ROM > image archive online. EVERYTHING is now available! > > As time permits, I'll get the other pages moved over to the new style > sheet. > > tnx! > > g. > > Pretty cool stuff! I finally got Firefox to display the font properly after I figured Ad-Block Plus was blocking some of the style-sheet elements. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 21:43:16 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 21:43:16 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? Message-ID: recently been given a box of sperry univac stamps not sure what to do with them yet kinda kool and random http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9779/dsc9873l.jpg From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 21:51:49 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 21:51:49 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > recently been given a box of sperry univac stamps not sure what to do with > them yet kinda kool and random > > http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9779/dsc9873l.jpg Rubber stamps? Metal stamps? What do they say? Maybe they were for marking cable runs, tape labels, ?? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 22:03:19 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:03:19 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example to a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/dsc9874c.jpg On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > > recently been given a box of sperry univac stamps not sure what to do > with > > them yet kinda kool and random > > > > http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9779/dsc9873l.jpg > > Rubber stamps? Metal stamps? What do they say? > > Maybe they were for marking cable runs, tape labels, ?? > From jon at jonworld.com Fri Mar 15 22:16:44 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:16:44 -0400 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example to > a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 > http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were tested. Very cool! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 22:20:25 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:20:25 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> Message-ID: indeed now what to do with them On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example > to > > a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 > > http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ > > Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were tested. > > Very cool! > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 15 22:27:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:27:19 -0400 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5143E697.20308@neurotica.com> On 03/15/2013 10:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > recently been given a box of sperry univac stamps not sure what to do with > them yet kinda kool and random > > http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9779/dsc9873l.jpg Those are QA stamps from board manufacturing. Wow, where the heck did your friend find these?! I think that is an amazing, incredible score. I'd say it's likely that many of us have boards and systems that were stamped by THOSE stamps! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 15 22:27:45 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:27:45 -0400 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <5143E6B1.3010700@neurotica.com> KEEP them! -Dave On 03/15/2013 11:20 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > indeed now what to do with them > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example >> to >>> a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 >>> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ >> >> Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were tested. >> >> Very cool! >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 22:35:57 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:35:57 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <5143E697.20308@neurotica.com> References: <5143E697.20308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: they came from the factory in winnipeg i would think also got a univac rack thats home to a pdp 8a On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/15/2013 10:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > recently been given a box of sperry univac stamps not sure what to do > with > > them yet kinda kool and random > > > > http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9779/dsc9873l.jpg > > Those are QA stamps from board manufacturing. Wow, where the heck did > your friend find these?! I think that is an amazing, incredible score. > I'd say it's likely that many of us have boards and systems that were > stamped by THOSE stamps! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 22:43:34 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:43:34 -0400 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <5143E6B1.3010700@neurotica.com> References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> <5143E6B1.3010700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Go to the grocery store and get to work on the bananas. -- Will >> indeed now what to do with them >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> >>> On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>>> rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example >>> to >>>> a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 >>>> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ >>> >>> Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were tested. >>> >>> Very cool! >>> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 15 22:57:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:57:52 -0400 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> <5143E6B1.3010700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2142FB23-B7D6-4F60-8ACF-F7B622AC2A9B@neurotica.com> ROFL!!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Go to the grocery store and get to work on the bananas. > > -- > Will > >>> indeed now what to do with them >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> >>>> On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> >>>>> rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example >>>> to >>>>> a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 >>>>> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ >>>> >>>> Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were tested. >>>> >>>> Very cool! >>>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 23:02:00 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:02:00 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <2142FB23-B7D6-4F60-8ACF-F7B622AC2A9B@neurotica.com> References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> <5143E6B1.3010700@neurotica.com> <2142FB23-B7D6-4F60-8ACF-F7B622AC2A9B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: haha On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ROFL!!! > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > > On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > Go to the grocery store and get to work on the bananas. > > > > -- > > Will > > > >>> indeed now what to do with them > >>> > >>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Jonathan Katz > wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for > example > >>>> to > >>>>> a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 > >>>>> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ > >>>> > >>>> Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were > tested. > >>>> > >>>> Very cool! > >>>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >> New Kensington, PA > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 23:28:00 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 21:28:00 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> References: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> On 3/15/2013 4:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/15/2013 01:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >> >> Anyone else remeember the 0XZ4 rectifier? Common is such car radios. > > And noisy (in the RF sense) as the dickens. Ran very hot, too. It had > a half-wave cousin, the OY3 (IIRC). > > B-supplies for auto radios seemed to come in a couple of flavors--gas > cold-cathode rectifier, traditional hot-cathode rectifier, and > synchronous vibrator rectifier--as well as an occasional plug-in > semiconductor replacement for the miserable OZ4. I don't recall > seeing a selenium rectifier in such rigs, however. The radio in my Nash Metropolitan uses a vibrator rectifier. It was a lost cause and when I rebuilt it I replaced the rectifier with a solid state replacement. On the subject of tube radios, I picked up an RCA Victor BP-10 awhile back; this is a portable from about 1940 and it's actually pretty darn tiny for a tube-based unit. (And it runs off a 63.5V B battery (#467) and one D-sized 1.5V battery. Amazingly you can still buy the 63.5V batteries new...). Anyway, I bring it up because aside from its small form factor it has one other attribute I've never seen in a tube radio -- it starts playing almost immediately (within a second) of turning it on and the tubes never seem to get warm at all. All the other tube units I've ever seen take 10-20 seconds to warm up first. Makes me wonder a) what's special about this unit and b) why other units didn't do the same -- seems like a pretty useful feature. Any ideas? Josh > > --Chuck > > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 23:32:16 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:32:16 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> <5143E6B1.3010700@neurotica.com> <2142FB23-B7D6-4F60-8ACF-F7B622AC2A9B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: also got a univac rack i am using for storeing my pdp 8 :) http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8005/7637107866_21817c648b_b.jpg From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 15 23:58:20 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 21:58:20 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> References: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com>,<5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> Anyone else remeember the 0XZ4 rectifier? Common is such car radios. > > > > And noisy (in the RF sense) as the dickens. Ran very hot, too. It had > > a half-wave cousin, the OY3 (IIRC). > > > > B-supplies for auto radios seemed to come in a couple of flavors--gas > > cold-cathode rectifier, traditional hot-cathode rectifier, and > > synchronous vibrator rectifier--as well as an occasional plug-in > > semiconductor replacement for the miserable OZ4. I don't recall > > seeing a selenium rectifier in such rigs, however. > > The radio in my Nash Metropolitan uses a vibrator rectifier. It was a > lost cause and when I rebuilt it I replaced the rectifier with a solid > state replacement. > > On the subject of tube radios, I picked up an RCA Victor BP-10 awhile > back; this is a portable from about 1940 and it's actually pretty darn > tiny for a tube-based unit. (And it runs off a 63.5V B battery (#467) > and one D-sized 1.5V battery. Amazingly you can still buy the 63.5V > batteries new...). Anyway, I bring it up because aside from its small > form factor it has one other attribute I've never seen in a tube radio > -- it starts playing almost immediately (within a second) of turning it > on and the tubes never seem to get warm at all. All the other tube > units I've ever seen take 10-20 seconds to warm up first. Makes me > wonder a) what's special about this unit and b) why other units didn't > do the same -- seems like a pretty useful feature. > > Any ideas? > Josh Most all the the portable radios of this time used thin directheated filaments.Most table models used a secondary cathode because the filamentswere strung together in series to run directly off the mains. Thiseliminated the need for a transformer.Most of the tube radios could also be run from the AC line.The filament voltage was created by a wasteful resistoror ballast tube. Neither was optimal as it required thatthe filament be supplied with rectified and filtered DC.The Selenium rectifiers of the day will be sure to fail withuse. They need to be replaced with silicon diodes andin some cases a limiting resistor.In any case, the direct filament heats almost instantly.The indirect cathode requires more time to come up to temperature.The portable radio uses less output power as well usuallyusing a 3V4 output tube.Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 16 00:02:48 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:02:48 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> References: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 15, at 9:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On the subject of tube radios, I picked up an RCA Victor BP-10 > awhile back; this is a portable from about 1940 and it's actually > pretty darn tiny for a tube-based unit. (And it runs off a 63.5V B > battery (#467) and one D-sized 1.5V battery. Amazingly you can > still buy the 63.5V batteries new...). Anyway, I bring it up > because aside from its small form factor it has one other attribute > I've never seen in a tube radio -- it starts playing almost > immediately (within a second) of turning it on and the tubes never > seem to get warm at all. All the other tube units I've ever seen > take 10-20 seconds to warm up first. Makes me wonder a) what's > special about this unit and b) why other units didn't do the same > -- seems like a pretty useful feature. There was a range of tubes built for 1.5V (and some 3V) filaments for use in battery-operated receivers, both 'farm' radios (rural areas that were late to get electricity) and portables, the tubes specially designed for low power requirements, the 1.5V of course so the filament can be operated off a single cell. Partly they don't have to heat up as much (in the dark you can just see the filament glowing a dull red, like that in VFD displays), but I think the main factor in the quick on time is they were directly- heated (the cathode is the filament), there was no separate cathode to heat, and no waiting for thermal transfer from the filament to the cathode. Actually, to make this sort of vaguely on-topic, there may have been some carry-over from the low-emission/low-power design lessons learned from those tubes to the design of VFDs. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 16 00:07:30 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:07:30 -0700 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> References: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5143FE12.2010003@sydex.com> On 03/15/2013 09:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On the subject of tube radios, I picked up an RCA Victor BP-10 awhile > back; this is a portable from about 1940 and it's actually pretty darn > tiny for a tube-based unit. (And it runs off a 63.5V B battery (#467) > and one D-sized 1.5V battery. Amazingly you can still buy the 63.5V > batteries new...). Anyway, I bring it up because aside from its small > form factor it has one other attribute I've never seen in a tube radio > -- it starts playing almost immediately (within a second) of turning it > on and the tubes never seem to get warm at all. All the other tube > units I've ever seen take 10-20 seconds to warm up first. Makes me > wonder a) what's special about this unit and b) why other units didn't > do the same -- seems like a pretty useful feature. Battery radios were like that--since there was no indirectly-heated cathode, it's ready to go as soon as the filament reaches temperature. About the smallest vacuum-tube radio that I remember owning was the Motorola Pixie. The Parrot was smaller, however: http://www.radiolaguy.com/Showcase/PortableRadios/subminiature.htm The funny thing was that for my first transistor experiments, I used submini tube sockets instead of harder-to-get transistor sockets. I used pick up surplus computer boards (I think they were military) that had 6 submini dual-triodes (usually) on them, in clips running on either size of the PCB in the middle. They were actually pretty useful in HF circuits. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 00:16:07 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 05:16:07 +0000 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 2:43 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > recently been given a box of sperry univac stamps not sure what to do with > them yet kinda kool and random > > http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9779/dsc9873l.jpg Proper and unique history there, keep and make sure the conditions they are kept in maintain the rubber. I have something similar when I collected the contents of a technical library (Joseph Lucas, Birminham) trade mark printing blocks for the documentation, copper on wood mostly with one being zinc. Dave Caroline From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 16 00:38:44 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Art posters Message-ID: <1363412324.18072.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am looking for computer Art posters for my room the art style I am look for date around 1970 to 1985 Artist: Melvin Prueitt, David Em Movies: Tron? Companies: Triple-I (Information International Inc.), Mathematical Applications Group, Inc. Constructive solid geometry, ray tracing --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0??50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 16 01:32:02 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:32:02 -0700 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <046AAA7B-A024-420A-9755-ED09AB090D83@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 15, at 8:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > >> rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for >> example to >> a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 >> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4963/ > > Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were > tested. > > Very cool! Something like this perhaps: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/univacModule/solder.jpg http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/univacModule/component.jpg The red stamp, as near as I have been able to make it out says; "UNIVAC DEFENSE" around the circumference "82" in the circle "MAR 30 1967" in the line (along with the violet stamp of "25" in a circle) From steve at tronola.com Fri Mar 15 12:41:44 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:41:44 -0400 Subject: Help with RK8e-RK05J diagnostics on PDP-8m In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303151741.r2FHfsZM042045@mx1.ezwind.net> At 04:05 AM 3/15/2013, David Gesswein wrote: >G version here >http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/ras.rk05;sort=name#DHRKBG.SV >Click more to convert to various formats for download. --- Thanks, David. I had not realized the power of the "more" option beside each OS/8 file in the catalog on your great website. It worked beautifully, translating the SV format to the Bin-loader format for me. Was able to load and run that diagnostic and apply the results to the correct version documentation. I'm now trying to interpret the results... All the best, Steve L. From earl at retrobits.com Fri Mar 15 14:16:09 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:16:09 -0700 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > one method that I could think of would be like some 80's magazines: > print barcodes onto letter paper. Use an old CueCat (the > proprietary-but-much-hacked not-so-free giveaway from Radio Shack) to > read the data back in. > > Interesting thought! I do have a CueCat around here somewhere. It's a PS/2 CueCat, but with a little Propeller (uC) board, I could turn that into serial. It would also need the CueCat decode algorithm (out there on the Internet somewhere). Heh, imagine CueCat scanning a bootloader into the PDP-11! There is no hardware other than what you are likely to already have > for the output side. True, bar code output is pretty easy; however, I wish I could do it in a way that was retro-compatible. Punching tape or marking cards is something I could have done in the 70s/80s, but using a JavaScript website to produce printable bar codes seems like cheating. Wonder if I could find some old Epson-compatible bar code printing software for CP/M, etc? - Earl From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 23:38:24 2013 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:38:24 -0500 Subject: CueCats, was Re: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: <514374C2.7030009@neurotica.com> References: <514374C2.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ooohhh, the CueCat. one of the first pieces of hardware I ever physically hacked in my life. Used a microprocessor, that read the barcode, paired it with the serial EPROM on the board, and used the serial number and a proprietary formula to jumble the barcode and spit it out over the keyboard port to the software sitting on the computer, taking you to the website, and recording your usage at the same time. People had such an issue with this device recording everything they look at and tracking your interests for sale to a third party. Yet, now, we use Google (while being "Scroogled") religiously, use QR codes, check in places, hashtag things we are interested in, etc. etc. without a second thought. I liked how it was a simple wire (might have been more, cant remember?) and elementary soldering skills, and you took the scanner from spitting garbage to a simple barcode number over the PS/2 port. I actually used it back in the day, printed an "ID card" with just a long random barcode, and set it as my password and used it to log-in to windows. I've wanted to get a USB cat for a while now, but they are fairly costly for my budget. As with anything, I would need to buy a couple, so that I could keep one intact for historical value, and hack the other for practicality. On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/15/2013 05:58 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > one method that I could think of would be like some 80's magazines: > > print barcodes onto letter paper. Use an old CueCat (the > > proprietary-but-much-hacked not-so-free giveaway from Radio Shack) to > > read the data back in. > > > > There is no hardware other than what you are likely to already have > > for the output side. If you don't have a CueCat, I'm sure a small > > amount of components can be hacked together to make a barcode reader > > in the "pen-drag" fashion. > > I think I still have a few CueCats if anyone wants them, free for the > cost of shipping. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Mar 16 01:51:05 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:51:05 -0700 Subject: Computer Art posters In-Reply-To: <1363412324.18072.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1363412324.18072.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51441659.4060703@jwsss.com> On 3/15/2013 10:38 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am looking for computer Art posters for my room > the art style I am look for date around 1970 to 1985 > > Artist: Melvin Prueitt, David Em > Movies: Tron > Companies: Triple-I (Information International Inc.), Mathematical Applications Group, Inc. > Constructive solid geometry, ray tracing Check with David Freeman @ www.thecomputermuseum.net. His original computer store / company / reseller (before all this "channel" crap was really invented) had dealings I think with Em back in the day and may have leads on where he is or where you can get something like you want. I don't know about Melvin Prueitt, and I think they dealt with Em before Tron was out. But I would ask him. thanks Jim From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 02:24:46 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 02:24:46 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <046AAA7B-A024-420A-9755-ED09AB090D83@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> <046AAA7B-A024-420A-9755-ED09AB090D83@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: kool On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:32 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Mar 15, at 8:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> On Mar 15, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness >> wrote: >> >> rubber and they have all sorts of stuff like unisys test 40 for example >>> to >>> a giant R with some numbers inside the R such as 6045 >>> http://img687.imageshack.us/**img687/4963/ >>> >> >> Looks like they were used by QA for stamping parts as they were tested. >> >> Very cool! >> > > > Something like this perhaps: > > http://www3.telus.net/~**bhilpert/tmp/univacModule/**solder.jpg > http://www3.telus.net/~**bhilpert/tmp/univacModule/**component.jpg > > The red stamp, as near as I have been able to make it out says; > "UNIVAC DEFENSE" around the circumference > "82" in the circle > "MAR 30 1967" in the line > > (along with the violet stamp of "25" in a circle) > > From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Mar 16 05:20:42 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 11:20:42 +0100 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <5144477A.6040906@update.uu.se> On 03/16/2013 04:20 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > indeed now what to do with them Might I suggest the CHM? Or you could probably get something for it on that big auction site. /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 16 05:30:08 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:30:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> References: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> Message-ID: <1363429808.10396.YahooMailNeo@web87803.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> I have several of these beasts. I do go back to when they were current equipment. The price asked for an RX02 in unknown condition is well over the top. The shipping price may not be far off as they weigh a ton!! ? ? ________________________________ From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Sent: Friday, 15 March 2013, 20:47 Subject: RE: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Filip Maj Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:27 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151012639827 Can I ask what makes this thing worth $300 plus $250 in shipping? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6177 - Release Date: 03/15/13 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 08:42:37 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 08:42:37 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: <5144477A.6040906@update.uu.se> References: <4176D3BA-3D9C-4EBB-ADA7-3BA3360F0EC4@jonworld.com> <5144477A.6040906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: i was debating that but i am also slowly peacing together to build the prarie museum of computers in winnipeg canada over the next 5 yrs On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 03/16/2013 04:20 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> indeed now what to do with them >> > > Might I suggest the CHM? Or you could probably get something for it on > that big auction site. > > /P > From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 09:10:25 2013 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:10:25 -0400 Subject: Dual 486 computer? Message-ID: Anyone have such a beast? I've got a friend looking for one. -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From sales at elecplus.com Sat Mar 16 09:36:16 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 09:36:16 -0500 Subject: Dual 486 computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001c01ce2253$9e3b7610$dab26230$@com> I have dual PII motherboards, dual Xeon motherboards, and one that takes 386 or 486, but no dual 486, sorry. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gary Sparkes Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Dual 486 computer? Anyone have such a beast? I've got a friend looking for one. -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6181 - Release Date: 03/16/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6181 - Release Date: 03/16/13 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 16 09:56:49 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 08:56:49 -0600 Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: References: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51448831.6030600@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/15/2013 11:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Actually, to make this sort of vaguely on-topic, there may have been > some carry-over from the low-emission/low-power design lessons learned > from those tubes to the design of VFDs. I allways thought that the VFD tube layout would have made a NOR gate tube had that idea been developed in the 1950's. Ben From hachti at hachti.de Sat Mar 16 10:04:22 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:04:22 +0100 Subject: Help with RK8e-RK05J diagnostics on PDP-8m In-Reply-To: <201303141534.r2EFYMuR082603@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303141534.r2EFYMuR082603@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <514489F6.3080806@hachti.de> Hi Steve, I'm currently not quite sure which versions can be found on David's server. My dhrkb directory looks like this: . |-- b | |-- maindec-08-dhrkb-b-pb.bin | `-- maindec-08-dhrkb-b-pb.lbl |-- c | |-- maindec-08-dhrkb-c-pb.bin | `-- maindec-08-dhrkb-c-pb.lbl |-- e | |-- maindec-08-dhrkb-e-d.pdf | |-- maindec-08-dhrkb-e-pb.bin | `-- table_maindec-08-dhrkb-e2g.txt |-- g | `-- maindec-08-dhrkb-g-d.pdf |-- INDEX |-- table_maindec-08-dhrkb-e2g.txt `-- use -> /home/hachti/pdp8/software/maindec/rk8e/dhrkb/e As you can easily see I use the b version. I might have collected stuff from David's website as well as found elsewhere or scanned myself. I don't keep record of that. If you have not already found what you need, send me a short email. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 10:24:17 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 11:24:17 -0400 Subject: Dual 486 computer? In-Reply-To: <001c01ce2253$9e3b7610$dab26230$@com> References: <001c01ce2253$9e3b7610$dab26230$@com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Gary Sparkes > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:10 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Dual 486 computer? > > Anyone have such a beast? I've got a friend looking for one. > I think Apricot made them. ALR definately made them, if you are searching eBay or such. From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 10:36:35 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:36:35 +0000 Subject: Dual 486 computer? In-Reply-To: References: <001c01ce2253$9e3b7610$dab26230$@com> Message-ID: On 16 March 2013 15:24, Jason McBrien wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Gary Sparkes >> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 9:10 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Dual 486 computer? >> >> Anyone have such a beast? I've got a friend looking for one. >> > > I think Apricot made them. ALR definately made them, if you are searching > eBay or such. Also the Compaq SystemPro servers of the late 1980s. I think there was possible a non-PC-compatible line of Unix machines from Sequent, but I remember little about them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Mar 16 12:43:55 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:43:55 -0500 Subject: Retroarchive update! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5144AF5B.4070107@brutman.com> On 3/15/2013 8:16 PM, geneb wrote: > The new VT220 font style sheets have been activated for the main site. > > I've also got the latest backup (2007) of Don Maslin's boot disk and ROM > image archive online. EVERYTHING is now available! > > As time permits, I'll get the other pages moved over to the new style > sheet. > > tnx! > > g. > > On a slightly related note, I was doing some telnet testing against bbs.retroarchive.org, and wow, Synchronet still blows me away with how good it looks. Forget HTTP .. go back to ANSI! Mike From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Mar 16 16:05:32 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:05:32 +0000 Subject: Help with RK8e-RK05J diagnostics on PDP-8m In-Reply-To: <201303151741.r2FHfsZM042045@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D7A7DB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/15/13 10:41 AM, "Steve Lafferty" wrote: >At 04:05 AM 3/15/2013, David Gesswein wrote: >>G version here >>http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/ras.rk05 >>;sort=name#DHRKBG.SV >>Click more to convert to various formats for download. > >--- Thanks, David. I had not realized the power of the "more" option >beside each OS/8 file in the catalog on your great website. It worked >beautifully, translating the SV format to the Bin-loader format for me. >Was able to load and run that diagnostic and apply the results to the >correct version documentation. I'm now trying to interpret the results... > >All the best, Steve L. > > > > Oh yeah, David's site is awesome. I obtained several TC08 diagnostics there that were crucial to getting our 8/e's DECtapes working. -- Ian From george at rachors.com Sat Mar 16 07:09:42 2013 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 05:09:42 -0700 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wondered if one of those would ever be useful. I think I have one of those too! George On Mar 15, 2013, at 12:16 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> >> one method that I could think of would be like some 80's magazines: >> print barcodes onto letter paper. Use an old CueCat (the >> proprietary-but-much-hacked not-so-free giveaway from Radio Shack) to >> read the data back in. >> >> > Interesting thought! I do have a CueCat around here somewhere. It's a PS/2 > CueCat, but with a little Propeller (uC) board, I could turn that into > serial. It would also need the CueCat decode algorithm (out there on the > Internet somewhere). > > Heh, imagine CueCat scanning a bootloader into the PDP-11! > > There is no hardware other than what you are likely to already have >> for the output side. > > > True, bar code output is pretty easy; however, I wish I could do it in a > way that was retro-compatible. Punching tape or marking cards is something > I could have done in the 70s/80s, but using a JavaScript website to produce > printable bar codes seems like cheating. Wonder if I could find some old > Epson-compatible bar code printing software for CP/M, etc? > > - Earl From jan at janadelsbach.com Sat Mar 16 09:06:14 2013 From: jan at janadelsbach.com (Jan Adelsbach) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:06:14 +0100 Subject: nCube 2 documentation Message-ID: <20130316150614.5a087495@CELSIUS-M460> Hi all, I've coincidentally found some nCube 2 documentation while looking for some SGI docs on the net; There are manpages: http://rsusu1.rnd.runnet.ru/cgi-bin/man-cgi.ncube ...and some docs: http://rsusu1.rnd.runnet.ru/ncube/ndoc/ndoc.html Also there is some other info although its in Russian; http://rsusu1.rnd.runnet.ru/ncube/ Jan From gerardcjat at free.fr Sat Mar 16 10:25:01 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:25:01 +0100 Subject: PCI PROTOTYPE CARD ( search for ... ) Message-ID: <48535AD3201540F3B301B3D4812C06B1@medion> Does someone knows a PCI PROTOTYPE CARD possibly based on the AMCC S5920 chip ?? Or does someone ever build something comparable ? ( I know about the "dragon" board, but doesn't like it is Fpga based ;-) ) From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 14:40:24 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:40:24 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11-era UART In-Reply-To: <20130315112205.GA27109@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130315112205.GA27109@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Thank you Ethan, John, and Holm. It looks like I have a number of options in the appropriate era; the variations seem to be only in terms of whether the Vdd of -12v is required (process-based I presume) and the max. supported speed (not exactly an issue with a 300 baud, more-or-less board :-<). I'll socket it and try a suitable candidate then. Doesn't seem that much can/should go wrong. We'll see about that ... On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 7:22 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Paul Birkel wrote: > > > The early PDP-11 uses a ?DEC 1801 UART? in multiple modules. I?ve had no > > luck identifying a comparable chip that could be substituted when doing > > repairs as there?s a remarkable dearth of information regarding the > > characteristics of this part, excepting the pin-out as seen in > engineering > > drawings. (No, I haven?t yet tried pin-out matching ... next step.) > > > > Ideally the part would be both HW and SW compatible, but clearly SW > > compatibility is key! > > > > Does anyone have any experience with this part, repairing boards where > this > > part has failed, or other words-of-wisdom to offer? > > > > Thanks, > > > > paul > > The Eastern Block TESLA MHB1012 is also a compatible Part, have a few of > them. There is no SW Compatibility at all since the part is in no way > programmable, every detail is configured trough control signals. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 15:08:37 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:08:37 -0400 Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor Message-ID: I'm slowly bringing some olde DEC PDP-11 boards back online. In this case a pair of Unibus Plessey PM-1116 B core memories. Fortunately I have really nice documentation for them. Their inhibit drivers are driven from the -15v rail and individually bypassed at that point by 15uF 20v +-20% axial capacitors. The specification is for Sprague 150D156X002082 parts. One board uses these, or a very close facsimile, *electrolytics*. No smoke on power-up. The other board has KEMET axial capacitors that are bullet-shaped and solid plastic. I've never seen anything like them before. Has anyone else? Searching through parts sheets @Mouser it looks like this is a *tantalum *capacitor (but apparently a discontinued line). One of these smoked mightily on power-up, splitting across the middle. (Fortunately this seems like a non-fatal failure as regards the remainder of the circuitry.) I'm unsure whether there's any good reason to replace it with a small electrolytic as used on the first board (and, perhaps, all of the others like it on the board), or whether I should replace *just* it with another KEMET capacitor instead? Since no other KEMET capacitors failed (there are 17 others) I'm thinking that I should replace *just *it, and with a comparable modern KEMET tantalum capacitor; *e.g*., the T110B156M020AT Does anyone have any experience with this part, repairing boards where this part has failed, or other words-of-wisdom to offer? Thanks, paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 16 16:46:11 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:46:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 15, 13 05:17:06 pm Message-ID: > The HP 9320-2051 cards have timing marks. That really helps vs an > IBM Hollerith card that uses a constant-rate feed mechanism and Indeed, those timing marks will help a lot. > timing from the front edge to locate the data. One idea is to have > a microcontroller (Arduino with nootropic design Video Experimenter > shield or a Raspberry Pi with a USB web cam, etc) positioned such > that it sees a vertical slice of the card, filtered through a red gel to > obscure the printed background, and when two timing ticks are visible > (detected via either camera image decoding or perhaps a pair of spaced > phototransistors to a "trigger" input), snap a tall, narrow frame that > represents one column and look for the dark spots in the right places > and turn that into an ASCII character and emit it out the serial port > (both the Arduino and the Raspberry Pi can do this). I don't have the HP mark sense reader on my 9830 (I wish I did...), but I would guess it used a dozen or so phototrasnsitors as sensorts and a few hundred transsitors (iniside ICs) at most to process the signals. You are replacing this with somethign with a few million optical sensors and a few million transsitors. And thsi is progress? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 16 16:52:11 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:52:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5143A92E.8050001@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 15, 13 04:05:18 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/15/2013 01:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > > > > Anyone else remeember the 0XZ4 rectifier? Common is such car radios. I meant 0Z4, of course > > And noisy (in the RF sense) as the dickens. Ran very hot, too. It had > a half-wave cousin, the OY3 (IIRC). I've never come across that one. The 0Z4 was not common in the UK, very few car radios used it, too. > > B-supplies for auto radios seemed to come in a couple of flavors--gas > cold-cathode rectifier, traditional hot-cathode rectifier, and > synchronous vibrator rectifier--as well as an occasional plug-in > semiconductor replacement for the miserable OZ4. I don't recall seeing > a selenium rectifier in such rigs, however. One of my vavled car radios uses a non-synchronous (primary side only) vibrator and a biphase metal rectifier (presumably selenium) for the HT supply. I can't rememebr what my other vavled car radio uses. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 16 17:02:20 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:02:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: <5143F4D0.8070502@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Mar 15, 13 09:28:00 pm Message-ID: > On the subject of tube radios, I picked up an RCA Victor BP-10 awhile Amongst others I have a 1960s Vidor (UK) portable vavle radio. It's not small, it's about the size of a large transitor radio. But as well as coverign the AM broadcast bands (MW and LW over here), it also covers band 2 FM. Not many valve portables hat that feature. > back; this is a portable from about 1940 and it's actually pretty darn > tiny for a tube-based unit. (And it runs off a 63.5V B battery (#467) > and one D-sized 1.5V battery. Amazingly you can still buy the 63.5V > batteries new...). Anyway, I bring it up because aside from its small If you cna't get the right battery, you can often get waway with wiring 9V PP3 (006P, wahtever) batteries in series. 7 for your little set, 7 or 8 for the UK sets that need a 67.5V battery and 10 for a 90V battery. > form factor it has one other attribute I've never seen in a tube radio > -- it starts playing almost immediately (within a second) of turning it > on and the tubes never seem to get warm at all. All the other tube > units I've ever seen take 10-20 seconds to warm up first. Makes me > wonder a) what's special about this unit and b) why other units didn't > do the same -- seems like a pretty useful feature. The battery-opeated valves are likely to be directly heated. That is, the filament is the cathode. Indrectly heated valves, like those in mais powered sets ahve a separate filamanet 9or heater) which heats the cathode sleeve. The latter is what emits electros. Indirectly heated vavles arte much slower to warm up [1] but you can heat them using AC. If you do that with a directly heatewd valve you will get a lot og main hum in the anode current. [1] The warm-up time depends in part on the thermal condictivity between heater ad cathode. And this is releated to the electircal isolation between those electrodes. A vavle that can stand a high heater-cathode votlage, like some of the rectifiers used in AC/DC sets and (even more) some TV booster diodes 9damper diodes) will take longer to warm up than other types. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 16 17:12:16 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:12:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Mar 15, 13 09:58:20 pm Message-ID: > Most all the the portable radios of this time used thin directheated filame= > nts.Most table models used a secondary cathode because the filamentswere st= > rung together in series to run directly off the mains. Thiseliminated the n= > eed for a transformer.Most of the tube radios could also be run from the AC= > line.The filament voltage was created by a wasteful resistoror ballast tub= > e. Neither was optimal as it required thatthe filament be supplied with rec= > tified and filtered DC.The Selenium rectifiers of the day will be sure to f= > ail withuse. They need to be replaced with silicon diodes andin some cases = > a limiting resistor.In any case, the direct filament heats almost instantly= > .The indirect cathode requires more time to come up to temperature.The port= > able radio uses less output power as well usuallyusing a 3V4 output tube.Dw= > ight Most AM portable sets obver here used 4 vavles. The signal valves (frequency changer, IF amplfier, detector%1st audio) had 1.5V filamanet,s originally at 50mA eachm, later 25mA. The otuput volve had 2 filamnet sections that were connected. For batter-only sets all 5 filament sections were connected in parellel and powered by a 1.5V battery (yes, often several cells in parallel, so 'battery' is correct). But we also had battery/mains sets. These normally put the 5 filament sections in series and used a 75.V (!) LT battery. For mains, the HT (90V) came form eitehr amins transofrmer and rectifier or a dropping resistor and half-wave rectifier straight off the mains (no isolation). The heater chain was then fed form thsi DC HT line viaa fat droppign resisotr. Not exactly efficient, but... One trap for the unwary is that when you put hte valve filaments in series, the current throug them also includes the anode current. Thereofre the volve at the earthy end of the chain is goig nto be carying rather more filament current than it should do, since it will also have to carry the anode current of all teh valves above it. The crue was to fit shut reissotrs across the filaments to get the currents right again. I seem to rememrb that if you ran a DL96 or 3V4 or... with the filimant sections in seires you had to shunt the more -ve one (resisotr from the filament tap to the -ve side fo the filament) due to the anode current of this valve alone. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 16 17:17:08 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:17:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Care and Feeding of Vacuum Tubes (Valves) In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 15, 13 10:02:48 pm Message-ID: > Actually, to make this sort of vaguely on-topic, there may have been > some carry-over from the low-emission/low-power design lessons > learned from those tubes to the design of VFDs. > With the DM160 (or wahtever you call it) as the 'missing link'? The DM160 was a little status indicator tube, in effect a single-segment VFD. It had a 1.something volt filamnet, a control grid and a phosphor-coated anode which you eran at about 30V. -3V bias on the grid swould cut it off and the device would be dark. 0V bias and you'd get a nice green glow from the anode. Of course a 3V voltage switng was easy to get from transsitor logic circuitry and the cotnrol grid took almost no power from the control circuit. Before there were LEDs, this device was commonmly used as a logic indicator on digital systems (paper tape equipment, control and data logging systems, etc). TI was quite small, about 3/16" diameter and 1" long. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 18:06:16 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:06:16 -0400 Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A1B2A4-356D-44B3-9386-A748AEB92704@gmail.com> On Mar 16, 2013, at 16:08, Paul Birkel wrote: > > The other board has KEMET axial capacitors that are bullet-shaped and solid > plastic. I've never seen anything like them before. Has anyone else? > Searching through parts sheets @Mouser it looks like this is a > *tantalum *capacitor > (but apparently a discontinued line). One of these smoked mightily on > power-up, splitting across the middle. (Fortunately this seems like a > non-fatal failure as regards the remainder of the circuitry.) I definitely have some I was using as the cathode resistor bypass for a tube amp. They still exist and are manufactured. > I'm unsure whether there's any good reason to replace it with a small > electrolytic as used on the first board (and, perhaps, all of the others > like it on the board), or whether I should replace *just* it with another > KEMET capacitor instead? I'd at least stick with tantalums of some sort, since the lower ESR may be important. > Since no other KEMET capacitors failed (there are 17 others) I'm thinking > that I should replace *just *it, and with a comparable modern KEMET > tantalum capacitor; *e.g*., the T110B156M020AT > > Does anyone have any experience with this part, repairing boards where this > part has failed, or other words-of-wisdom to offer? Doesn't have to be KEMET, but they are one of the two major manufacturers of tantalum electrolytics. The other is AVX; there are others, but those are the two I end up building into boards. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 16 18:06:50 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:06:50 -0700 Subject: PCI PROTOTYPE CARD ( search for ... ) In-Reply-To: <48535AD3201540F3B301B3D4812C06B1@medion> References: <48535AD3201540F3B301B3D4812C06B1@medion> Message-ID: <5144FB0A.2010109@sydex.com> On 03/16/2013 08:25 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: > Does someone knows a PCI PROTOTYPE CARD > > possibly based on the AMCC S5920 chip ?? > > Or does someone ever build something comparable ? > > ( I know about the "dragon" board, but doesn't like it is Fpga based ;-) ) Futurlec sells them: http://www.futurlec.com/Protoboards.shtml#PCIBUSBRD But they're bare boards (well made) and very inexpensive. There are many reference designs for PCI interface using CPLDs. I know that Altera has at least one and Xilinx does as well. Really very simple. If you've got lots of money, you may want to check out MessSysteme http://www.pci-tools.com/ But far too rich for my wallet. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 16 18:13:59 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:13:59 -0700 Subject: PCI PROTOTYPE CARD ( search for ... ) In-Reply-To: <48535AD3201540F3B301B3D4812C06B1@medion> References: <48535AD3201540F3B301B3D4812C06B1@medion> Message-ID: <5144FCB7.6090005@sydex.com> On 03/16/2013 08:25 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: > Does someone knows a PCI PROTOTYPE CARD Not quite a prototype board, but might have much of what you need is the Dragon Board: http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_PCI.html Pricey, but not as bad as some prototype units. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 16 18:24:11 2013 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:24:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1363476251.91693.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> From: Richard To: cctalk Sent: Friday, 15 March 2013, 22:09 Subject: Re: PNG image decompression > In article <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo at web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>, > ? ? Andrew Burton writes: > > > I have sucessfully decoded all the easy stuff, but am currently trying > > to decode the IDAT chunk (where the image data is stored). > > Why aren't you using libpng? Because that is far too easy and I wanted to learn how to decode the PNG file format. Using a library teaches me nothing, not to mention adds unecessary bulk (the routines I don't use) to whatever I'm using PNG's in. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 16 18:35:41 2013 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:35:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1363476941.57834.YahooMailNeo@web171604.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> From: "rachael at telefisk.org" To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, 15 March 2013, 20:28 Subject: Re: PNG image decompression > On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > I am in the process of working on a new Amiga game, but I have the > > graphics saved in .PNG format. I could convert them to the much > > easier to decompress .IFF format, but .PNG image save many more > > bytes (e.g image is 15KB saved as an .IFF vs. 9KB as a .PNG). > > > > I have sucessfully decoded all the easy stuff, but am currently trying > > to decode the IDAT chunk (where the image data is stored). > > > > The format of the data is defined as follows (straight out of the RFC1951 > > Deflate Compression document available online): > > > > > > If you support amigaos 3.x and newer, you can just use the > datatype.library, it will open any format you have the datatypes installed > for and give you an object to work with. > If you are aiming for older versions of amigaos, there are libpng on > aminet http://aminet.net/search?query=libpng . > > regards > > -- > Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 > libpng and zlib are two choices. Personal Paint (by Cloanto in 1996) also supports PNG's, though looking at their custom PNG library (and even disassembling it) hasn't revealed anything terribly useful to me. I'm sure some better coders could probably work out what it does. I found a site (link below) where someone else had the same problem and Mark Adler (one of the guys behind the PNG format and/or the libraries) was kind enough to post some information. It has helped me progress a little further :) http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.compression/2009-04/msg00035.html Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 16 20:05:19 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:05:19 -0700 Subject: Dual 486 computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130316180519.2058897b@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:10:25 -0400 Gary Sparkes wrote: > Anyone have such a beast? I've got a friend looking for one. > Acer made a dual processor 486 and provided a hardware specific HAL to run their SMP on Windows... I still may have a server in storage (it's large)... Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 16 20:22:30 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Art posters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363483350.30141.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > On 3/15/2013 10:38 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I am looking for computer Art posters for my room >> the art style I am look for date around 1970 to 1985 >> >> Artist: Melvin Prueitt, David Em >> Movies: Tron >> Companies: Triple-I (Information International Inc.), Mathematical > Applications Group, Inc. >> Constructive solid geometry, ray tracing > Check with David Freeman @ www.thecomputermuseum.net. that website is dead :( >? His original computer > store / company / reseller (before all this "channel" crap was really > invented) had dealings I think with Em back in the day and may have leads on > where he is or where you can get something like you want.? I don't know > about Melvin Prueitt, and I think they dealt with Em before Tron was out.? But I > would ask him. while browsing around I found www.dam.org (Digital Art Museum) they may be able to help me > > thanks > Jim > > kool tom From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 16 20:34:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:34:46 -0600 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <1363476251.91693.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1363476251.91693.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1363476251.91693.YahooMailNeo at web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>, Andrew Burton writes: > > From: Richard > > > Why aren't you using libpng? > > Because that is far too easy and I wanted to learn how to decode the > PNG file format. Meh. There's more important things to learn that aren't available in canned libraries, IMO. Good game design and gameplay, for instance. > Using a library teaches me nothing, not to mention > adds unecessary bulk (the routines I don't use) to whatever I'm using > PNG's in. Whatever you don't use doesn't get linked into your executable because each "feature" in libpng is it's own compilation unit, IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Mar 16 20:46:22 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:46:22 -0400 Subject: SimH, PDP8 OS/8 and RKLFMT hang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130317014622.GA28294@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:03:47AM -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: > > I am wondering if perhaps the SimH emulation of the RK8E is flawed in > some way such that the READ ALL and WRITE ALL commands don't work > properly, causing RKLFMT to fail. > SIMH doesn't always implement instructions that are used outside normal programs. From the not latest version code I looked at read/write all are just mapped to read/write. That may confuse the format program. From wilson at dbit.com Sat Mar 16 21:44:43 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:44:43 -0400 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1363476251.91693.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130317024443.GA20737@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 07:34:46PM -0600, Richard wrote: > Andrew Burton writes: >> Because that is far too easy and I wanted to learn how to decode the >> PNG file format. > >Meh. There's more important things to learn that aren't available in >canned libraries, IMO. Good game design and gameplay, for instance. Sometimes programming is an end in itself! And anyway, often shoe-horning code that's lying around is a bigger battle than just writing your own that's an exact fit. John Wilson D Bit From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 16 22:43:41 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:43:41 -0600 Subject: PNG image decompression In-Reply-To: <20130317024443.GA20737@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1363218663.27571.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1363476251.91693.YahooMailNeo@web171605.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20130317024443.GA20737@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: In article <20130317024443.GA20737 at dbit.dbit.com>, John Wilson writes: > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 07:34:46PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > Andrew Burton writes: > >> Because that is far too easy and I wanted to learn how to decode the > >> PNG file format. > > > >Meh. There's more important things to learn that aren't available in > >canned libraries, IMO. Good game design and gameplay, for instance. > > Sometimes programming is an end in itself! I'm not saying that doing things on your own isn't a learning experience. However, if your goal is to build a fun game on the Amiga, there's better ways to spend your time than going through every nook and cranny of PNG. It's not even directly related to gameplay, only asset loading. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rickb at bensene.com Sat Mar 16 23:25:15 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:25:15 -0700 Subject: SimH, PDP8 OS/8 and RKLFMT hang In-Reply-To: <20130317014622.GA28294@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20130317014622.GA28294@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: I did find that the latest 4.0 beta version of SIMH *does* work with the RKLFMT program. There was a timing issue with the implementation of the RK8E "disk skip" instruction that caused the problem that I was having, and it was corrected in the latest 4.0 beta SIMH. Thanks to Mark Pizzolato for pointing this out to me (via private Email). Rick Bensene > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Gesswein > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 6:46 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: SimH, PDP8 OS/8 and RKLFMT hang > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:03:47AM -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > > I am wondering if perhaps the SimH emulation of the RK8E is flawed in > > some way such that the READ ALL and WRITE ALL commands don't work > > properly, causing RKLFMT to fail. > > > SIMH doesn't always implement instructions that are used outside normal > programs. From the not latest version code I looked at read/write all are just > mapped to read/write. That may confuse the format program. From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 00:12:28 2013 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:12:28 -0400 Subject: Dual 486 computer? In-Reply-To: <20130316180519.2058897b@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20130316180519.2058897b@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: IF you still have that, I know a buyer who'd be interested. I don't know his price range, but..... he's been looking for a while. this would be his next acquisition after his recent PDP8 On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:10:25 -0400 > Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > Anyone have such a beast? I've got a friend looking for one. > > > > Acer made a dual processor 486 and provided a hardware specific HAL to > run their SMP on Windows... > > I still may have a server in storage (it's large)... > > Lyle > -- > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 01:48:57 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:48:57 -0700 Subject: Looking for: Amiga 1000 keyboard/mouse Message-ID: <51456759.9090302@gmail.com> Scored afree Amiga 1000 today sans monitor, keyboard and mouse. Happily, it's equipped with an apparently very rare "Rejuvenator" expansion (http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/rejuvenator), which looks pretty cool, if it still works (it has some minor battery corrosion that I've cleaned up...) so I'm excited to play around with this system :). I have a compatible RGB monitor, but no keyboard or mouse. Anyone have a set going spare? Thanks as always, Josh From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Mar 17 11:14:48 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:14:48 -0400 Subject: Photos from Trenton Computer Festival, March 16th Message-ID: <17f1bfea$672ee697$c4da32f$@com> Photos from the MARCH club exhibit at the Trenton Computer Festival, March 16th. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=509 Includes: an original Mark 8 Altair 8800 Altair 680 IMSAI 8080 Heathkit H8 KIM-1 PDP 8e Educomputer and more From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 11:27:53 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:27:53 -0400 Subject: Library machines Message-ID: My earliest memories of seeing computers in action were at the library. Old ADM-3 terminals with light pens to scan in barcodes on the books and on your library card. Plus the muffled sound of a line printer in back doing lists of late check-outs. This would have been in the 1980's. The library I used to go to still had those ADM's well into the '90s, then replaced with gray sided, amber screened WYSE VT-100 lookalikes. But the UI looked the same, so I assume the backend was the same. Anyone know what minis ran library management software back then? I know the university I went to was all Amdhal with 5250 terminals, but the local libraries obviously used something smaller. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 17 11:56:52 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 11:56:52 -0500 Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5145F5D4.6080608@pico-systems.com> > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 16:08:37 -0400 > From: Paul Birkel > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I'm slowly bringing some olde DEC PDP-11 boards back online. In this case > a pair of Unibus Plessey PM-1116 B core memories. Fortunately I have > really nice documentation for them. > > Their inhibit drivers are driven from the -15v rail and individually > bypassed at that point by 15uF 20v +-20% axial capacitors. The > specification is for Sprague 150D156X002082 parts. One board uses these, > or a very close facsimile, *electrolytics*. No smoke on power-up. > > The other board has KEMET axial capacitors that are bullet-shaped and solid > plastic. I've never seen anything like them before. Has anyone else? > Searching through parts sheets @Mouser it looks like this is a > *tantalum *capacitor > (but apparently a discontinued line). One of these smoked mightily on > power-up, splitting across the middle. (Fortunately this seems like a > non-fatal failure as regards the remainder of the circuitry.) > > I'm unsure whether there's any good reason to replace it with a small > electrolytic as used on the first board (and, perhaps, all of the others > like it on the board), or whether I should replace *just* it with another > KEMET capacitor instead? > > Since no other KEMET capacitors failed (there are 17 others) I'm thinking > that I should replace *just *it, and with a comparable modern KEMET > tantalum capacitor; *e.g*., the T110B156M020AT > > > Tantalum caps are notorious for failing catastrophically on equipment that is left unused for a couple years. If the power supply has lots of current capacity, then you get the symptom you experienced. I'd change to aluminum electrolytics, then you don't have to worry about a repeat performance in a decade. If you let the board sit for a few years and then power it on, you will likely have another failure. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 17 12:04:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:04:58 -0400 Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor In-Reply-To: <5145F5D4.6080608@pico-systems.com> References: <5145F5D4.6080608@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5145F7BA.5060607@neurotica.com> On 03/17/2013 12:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Tantalum caps are notorious for failing catastrophically on equipment that > is left unused for a couple years. If the power supply has lots of current > capacity, then you get the symptom you experienced. I'd change to > aluminum electrolytics, then you don't have to worry about a repeat > performance in a decade. A year or so ago, when I was working on a new design for work, Dan Roganti noticed that I had designed in some tantalum capacitors in a switching regulator. He razzed me pretty good about it, and talked me into investigating some of the newer low-ESR high-capacitance-per-volume capacitor technologies. I've since been using some really fantastic aluminum organic polymer capacitors. They're cheaper than the tantalums (tantala?), they do not contain a liquid electrolyte (which means they cannot boil and burst, hence no "K" scoring on the top) and their ESR is almost unbelievably low. Just FYI, for those replacing tantalums. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Mar 17 12:25:20 2013 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:25:20 +0000 Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5145FC80.8080807@philpem.me.uk> On 17/03/13 16:27, Jason McBrien wrote: > Anyone know what minis ran library management software back then? I know > the university I went to was all Amdhal with 5250 terminals, but the local > libraries obviously used something smaller. In the early 90s, Leeds City Council did something similar - the libraries were equipped with terminals (mostly Data General beige boxes) which ran a fairly sluggish menu-driven library catalogue. All the usual stuff - search by author, keyword, Dewey Decimal, ISBN... I do recall the software crashing out once - it dropped out to a shell prompt. As I recall, the prompt character was an asterisk... Later on they introduced a web based system using Talis PRISM, but that may or may not have been the same as the old terminal based system. The two were running in tandem for a few months. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 17 13:07:48 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 11:07:48 -0700 Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor In-Reply-To: <5145F7BA.5060607@neurotica.com> References: <5145F5D4.6080608@pico-systems.com> <5145F7BA.5060607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51460674.2040102@sydex.com> On 03/17/2013 10:04 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > A year or so ago, when I was working on a new design for work, Dan > Roganti noticed that I had designed in some tantalum capacitors in a > switching regulator. He razzed me pretty good about it, and talked me > into investigating some of the newer low-ESR high-capacitance-per-volume > capacitor technologies. I've since been using some really fantastic > aluminum organic polymer capacitors. They're cheaper than the tantalums > (tantala?), they do not contain a liquid electrolyte (which means they > cannot boil and burst, hence no "K" scoring on the top) and their ESR is > almost unbelievably low. Yes, great stuff making its appearance in a lot of new gear. However, the range of values seems to be quite limited for through-hole (radial wire leads) devices in comparison to what's available in SMT. I suppose that's only to be expected. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 13:21:07 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:21:07 +0000 Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a book somewhere of that period (awol at the moment) http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Application_of_Mini_and_Micro_comput.html?id=vza6AAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y but circa 1983 computers in libraries must have been recent as they were having conferences on the subject at that time Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 14:02:37 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:02:37 +0000 Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A little digging and and I have a relevant book from 1966 http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=bk3177 Seems a Univac 1004 with a Univac 1001 punched card was working at Nassau. and Decatur Public Library was IBM with a 402 accounting machine 026 printing punch, 082 sorter 514 reproducing punch $375 a month odd fact during 1963/64 the data processing department handled 20 different routines, which required the use of 1301374 IMB punched cards Bethesda used an IBM 407 accounting machine for printing Dave Caroline From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 17 14:48:42 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retroarchive update! In-Reply-To: <5143D3E7.3050400@landcomp.net> References: <5143D3E7.3050400@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2013, Dave Land wrote: > On 3/15/13 7:16 PM, geneb wrote: >> The new VT220 font style sheets have been activated for the main site. >> >> I've also got the latest backup (2007) of Don Maslin's boot disk and ROM >> image archive online. EVERYTHING is now available! >> >> As time permits, I'll get the other pages moved over to the new style >> sheet. >> >> tnx! >> >> g. >> >> > Pretty cool stuff! I finally got Firefox to display the font properly after I > figured Ad-Block Plus was blocking some of the style-sheet elements. :) Yikes. What style sheet elements were causing a problem? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 14:53:57 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:53:57 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) Message-ID: <51461F55.9@gmail.com> Powered up an old Compaq Portable II and was greeted with a cloud of smoke; a tantalum cap's gone to capacitor heaven (it's next to silicon heaven).Unfortunately it's now so far gone I can't read its value -- anyone have a schematic or know what the capacitor at C19 is supposed to be? Thanks, Josh From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 17 14:58:17 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:58:17 +1300 Subject: Photos from Trenton Computer Festival, March 16th In-Reply-To: <17f1bfea$672ee697$c4da32f$@com> References: <17f1bfea$672ee697$c4da32f$@com> Message-ID: Great pics Bill. Good to see people enjoying looking at that classic gear. I would so love an IMSAI! Terry (Tez) On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:14 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > Photos from the MARCH club exhibit at the Trenton Computer Festival, March > 16th. > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=509 > > Includes: > an original Mark 8 > Altair 8800 > Altair 680 > IMSAI 8080 > Heathkit H8 > KIM-1 > PDP 8e Educomputer > and more > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 17 15:08:21 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retroarchive update! In-Reply-To: <5144AF5B.4070107@brutman.com> References: <5144AF5B.4070107@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Mar 2013, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > On 3/15/2013 8:16 PM, geneb wrote: >> The new VT220 font style sheets have been activated for the main site. >> >> I've also got the latest backup (2007) of Don Maslin's boot disk and ROM >> image archive online. EVERYTHING is now available! >> >> As time permits, I'll get the other pages moved over to the new style >> sheet. >> >> tnx! >> >> g. >> >> > > On a slightly related note, I was doing some telnet testing against > bbs.retroarchive.org, and wow, Synchronet still blows me away with how good > it looks. > > Forget HTTP .. go back to ANSI! Hehe. Thanks Mike. That bbs is pretty much un-modded and running an older build of Synchronet. The cool thing is that I can get my FidoNet fix (I've held the same node # since about 1990!) and my usenet fix from the same system. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 15:13:21 2013 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:13:21 -0700 Subject: Free: Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc Desktop Message-ID: <514623E1.3050301@gmail.com> Dug up a copy of Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc Desktop while sorting out my stuff...All the manuals and disks all seem to be in the box...I know its a bit useless and dated considering other better OS alternatives for older Sparcs. Does anybody want this? I'll just send it in a USPS flat rate box. Contact me off the list if interested. I am in the San Diego area, 91942. -Kurt From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 17 15:50:25 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:50:25 -0400 Subject: Magic Smoke: 15uf/20v bypass (tantalum?) capacitor In-Reply-To: <51460674.2040102@sydex.com> References: <5145F5D4.6080608@pico-systems.com> <5145F7BA.5060607@neurotica.com> <51460674.2040102@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51462C91.9000300@neurotica.com> On 03/17/2013 02:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> A year or so ago, when I was working on a new design for work, Dan >> Roganti noticed that I had designed in some tantalum capacitors in a >> switching regulator. He razzed me pretty good about it, and talked me >> into investigating some of the newer low-ESR high-capacitance-per-volume >> capacitor technologies. I've since been using some really fantastic >> aluminum organic polymer capacitors. They're cheaper than the tantalums >> (tantala?), they do not contain a liquid electrolyte (which means they >> cannot boil and burst, hence no "K" scoring on the top) and their ESR is >> almost unbelievably low. > > Yes, great stuff making its appearance in a lot of new gear. However, > the range of values seems to be quite limited for through-hole (radial > wire leads) devices in comparison to what's available in SMT. > > I suppose that's only to be expected. Yes, but many of them are what I call "pseudo-SMT" packages, which are basically radial-lead metal cans with wires coming out of them in the normal sense, but they've been flattened out and made horizontal for SMT soldering. They can be bent back out. :-) It's a bit kludgy, but I can see situations where it'd work for replacement of through-hole parts. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From slandon110 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 16:00:31 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:00:31 -0400 Subject: FS: IBM 5150 with original boxes Message-ID: <51462EEF.6060604@gmail.com> I hate to part with my 5150, But it sits and never gets used at all Its a stock 256k 5150 With a Sysdyne RGB, Amber, Green Monitor Has a 20MB HardCard installed and a Network Card. DOS 2.11 Installed on it, Comes with mTCP installed so you can get online with it Has all original boxes for the system, keyboard and monitor The Machine itself is in mint condition $300 dollars or best offer Thanks Steve From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Mar 17 12:06:30 2013 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:06:30 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> On Mar 17, 2013, at 1:36 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > > I have several of these beasts. > I do go back to when they were current equipment. > The price asked for an RX02 in unknown condition is well over the top. > The shipping price may not be far off as they weigh a ton!! I got one with my 11/750 15 years ago. I sold it for around $200, close to what I paid for the entire system. It was a local sale and I don't recall the drive's weight. alan From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 12:11:42 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:11:42 -0400 Subject: DEC Q-Bus DLV11 M7940 SLU Documentation Message-ID: Can some kind soul point me to the technical documentation for the Q-Bus DLV11 M7940 Serial Line Unit? It has a 2x20 pin-out connector of unknown. I gather that it's a pretty common card, so I'd expect the documentation to still be "out there" ... like the truth :->. Not the DLV11-J, which is the 4-line card. The only good news is that the MC1488 and MC1489 are nearby, which will help a little. But documentation is *much* better! Probably any of its variants will do just fine (e.g., M7940-YA "M7940 W EXTRA WIRES TO BRING OUT CLOCK & 110/300 SPEED CHG"). Attached is what I've thus-far been able to find, which is jumper-info dug out of a paper-tape reader manual! Thank you, paul From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun Mar 17 12:24:47 2013 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:24:47 +0000 Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5145FC5F.4030707@philpem.me.uk> On 17/03/13 16:27, Jason McBrien wrote: > Anyone know what minis ran library management software back then? I know > the university I went to was all Amdhal with 5250 terminals, but the local > libraries obviously used something smaller. In the early 90s, Leeds City Council did something similar - the libraries were equipped with terminals (mostly Data General beige boxes) which ran a fairly sluggish menu-driven library catalogue. All the usual stuff - search by author, keyword, Dewey Decimal, ISBN... I do recall the software crashing out once - it dropped out to a shell prompt. As I recall, the prompt character was an asterisk... Later on they introduced a web based system using Talis PRISM, but that may or may not have been the same as the old terminal based system. The two were running in tandem for a few months. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Mar 17 16:14:24 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:14:24 +0100 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Weight ... a ton? Correct, if "a ton" is approximately 60 lb (less than 30 kilos). Still, shipping that weight will cost money, that's true! - Henk, PA8PDP -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Perry" Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:06 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay > On Mar 17, 2013, at 1:36 AM, R SMALLWOOD > wrote: > >> I have several of these beasts. >> I do go back to when they were current equipment. >> The price asked for an RX02 in unknown condition is well over the top. >> The shipping price may not be far off as they weigh a ton!! > > I got one with my 11/750 15 years ago. I sold it for around $200, close > to what > I paid for the entire system. It was a local sale and I don't recall the > drive's weight. > > alan From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 16:39:09 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:09 -0700 Subject: DEC Q-Bus DLV11 M7940 SLU Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2013 2:12 PM, "Paul Birkel" wrote: > > Can some kind soul point me to the technical documentation for the Q-Bus > DLV11 M7940 Serial Line Unit? It has a 2x20 pin-out connector of unknown. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf Page 211 From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 16:53:41 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:53:41 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> On 3/17/2013 2:14 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Weight ... a ton? > Correct, if "a ton" is approximately 60 lb (less than 30 kilos). > Still, shipping that weight will cost money, that's true! > > - Henk, PA8PDP > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Alan Perry" > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:06 PM > To: > Cc: > Subject: Re: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay > >> On Mar 17, 2013, at 1:36 AM, R SMALLWOOD >> wrote: >> >>> I have several of these beasts. >>> I do go back to when they were current equipment. >>> The price asked for an RX02 in unknown condition is well over the top. >>> The shipping price may not be far off as they weigh a ton!! >> >> I got one with my 11/750 15 years ago. I sold it for around $200, >> close to what >> I paid for the entire system. It was a local sale and I don't recall >> the drive's weight. >> >> alan > > I shipped two of these cross country in the last year. One by FedEx and the other by UPS. Each cost less than $75 to ship including supplies. I did all the packing myself and my own shipping account. The stores will rip you off on the paking supllies, packing service, and the shipping rates. The UPS stores are the worst. If something costs $20 to ship on the UPS website it will probably cost $38 at the store. They take the full non-discounted UPS rate then add more on top for the store. The UPS stores aren't owned by UPS. They are individual franchises and they can charge whatever basically. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 17 17:02:41 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:02:41 -0600 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51463B65.6060008 at gmail.com>, mc68010 writes: > The UPS stores are the worst. [...] No. Ebay sellers who don't put any padding around an item are the worst. UPS may not be the *cheapest* but what good is saving a few bucks on shipping when the stuff arrives smashed beyond repair. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 17:26:29 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:26:29 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> On 3/17/2013 3:02 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <51463B65.6060008 at gmail.com>, > mc68010 writes: > >> The UPS stores are the worst. [...] > No. > > Ebay sellers who don't put any padding around an item are the worst. > > UPS may not be the *cheapest* but what good is saving a few bucks on > shipping when the stuff arrives smashed beyond repair. I had stuff packed at a UPS store arrive in many pieces too. Again UPS stores are individual franchises and the quality of any service you get is totally dependent on the store and the employee that packs it. UPS doesn't run or operate any of them. It's just like going into a McDonalds. The store owners are just paying for the right to use the UPS logo more than anything. It may be great at one and garbage at another. Besides I don't even understand your point. You would be the shipper and you can pack it as well as you like. Are you saying you wouldn't be able to pack it safely and so have to take it to a store ? I am not sure what this has to to do with getting something from a ebay sale. I've got stuff packed great from ebay sellers and then stuff just thrown in a box with no padding at all. I mean nothing. Funny enough some of the non-packed stuff has made it fine and some of the over packed stuff got destroyed. Sometimes the greatest packing in the world won't save it. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 17 18:40:14 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:40:14 -0600 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51464315.7020401 at gmail.com>, mc68010 writes: > I had stuff packed at a UPS store arrive in many pieces too. I have never had this situation occur when it was packed by a business whose job it is to pack and ship goods. I have had it happen several times from J. Random Ebay User who always think they are doing me a favor by skimping on the packaging. > stores are individual franchises and the quality of any service you get > is totally dependent on the store and the employee that packs it. However, an individual UPS store franchise that does it's job poorly will soon be out of business. J. Random Ebay User can only receive negative feedback from me, and such feedback will ultimately expire off the browsable feedback and only be integrated into some abstract number. The economic impact of shoddy packing is much more likely to be felt on a UPS Store franchise than it is gonig to be felt on J. Random Ebay User and market forces are more likely to push bad UPS Stores out of the market than anything that happens on ebay. Therefore I conclude that my original statement still holds: J. Random Ebay User is worse than a UPS Store franchise. Utopia is not an option. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 18:57:02 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:57:02 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> On 3/17/2013 4:40 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <51464315.7020401 at gmail.com>, > mc68010 writes: > > Therefore I conclude that my original statement still holds: J. Random > Ebay User is worse than a UPS Store franchise. If someone has bad feedback for shipping you don't buy from them. Same as not going to a UPS store that damages goods. It's actually pretty much the same but, still I don't under stand what you mean though. You aren't going to get a a ebay seller to drop it off at a UPS store. f you are using a UPS store to ship something that you sold all you are saying is you can't pack it well enough to safely ship or are just too lazy to try. Your making the buyer pay more for that. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 17 19:29:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> > Therefore I conclude that my original statement still holds: J. Random > Ebay User is worse than a UPS Store franchise. A while back, I bought an HP laptop. The seller carried it to the post office, dropped it into a flat-rate box, and then she dropped the adhesive cover strip and the backing paper from the shipping label in as the only packing material. It came through just fine! I've had other small items with massive amounts of styrofoam turds and half a dozen thicknesses of cardboard that were mangled beyond recognition. But, I have never had an item packed full of angry gorillas receive any damage at all. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 19:43:48 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:43:48 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> On 3/17/2013 5:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Therefore I conclude that my original statement still holds: J. Random >> Ebay User is worse than a UPS Store franchise. > A while back, I bought an HP laptop. > The seller carried it to the post office, dropped it into a flat-rate box, > and then she dropped the adhesive cover strip and the backing paper from > the shipping label in as the only packing material. > It came through just fine! > > I've had other small items with massive amounts of styrofoam turds and > half a dozen thicknesses of cardboard that were mangled beyond recognition. > > But, I have never had an item packed full of angry gorillas receive any > damage at all. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I had someone actually ship me a IBM 14" VGA monitor in an empty box by Parcel Post. He seriously just put it in the box and took it to the post office. Not even in there tight. There was 2 inches around it on all side and it just sat on it's plastic stand. It arrived in perfect shape. My mind was blown when I opened the box. I didn't know if I should be angry or jump for joy. When the shipping gods decide it gets there safe it gets there safe. When they decide it won't it wont no matter what. It is not for us mortal men to understand their whims. From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Mar 17 19:51:10 2013 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:51:10 +1000 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5824BDF5-99C7-4063-934B-935C614FB8C1@mactec.com.au> On 18/03/2013, at 9:40 AM, Richard wrote: > Therefore I conclude that my original statement still holds: J. Random > Ebay User is worse than a UPS Store franchise. I once had an ebay user post an Amiga 1000 to me with no packing other than wrapping it in brown paper. It would have been ok if they taped something over the floppy eject button to protect it.. I now ask (or specify) how the item will be packed before bidding. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 20:07:14 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Mar 2013, mc68010 wrote: > I had someone actually ship me a IBM 14" VGA monitor in an empty box by > Parcel Post. He seriously just put it in the box and took it to the post > office. Not even in there tight. There was 2 inches around it on all side > and it just sat on it's plastic stand. It arrived in perfect shape. My mind > was blown when I opened the box. I didn't know if I should be angry or jump > for joy. When the shipping gods decide it gets there safe it gets there safe. > When they decide it won't it wont no matter what. It is not for us mortal men > to understand their whims. Amen, Brother. A guy in Florida sent me a Xerox 820-II in a box that didn't allow any space around the system. The keyboard was just sitting on top of the CPU and the box flaps closed over it. The result was not pretty. I spent about two days straightening out metal parts and super-glued the case (which was broken into a half-dozen pieces) back together. Doesn't look all that bad and works fine. Later the same month (must have been something in the water), I was a sent a Corvus 20-Meg drive packed in the same manner (this despite an explicit request to BE CAREFUL with packing). Every plastic post inside the unit was snapped off from repeated handling by the Samsonite gorillas, but incredibly the hard disk survived. They don't make equipment with this kind of durability any more... Steve -- From wilson at dbit.com Sun Mar 17 21:21:17 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:21:17 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> I haven't done this much, but when I have stuff shipped by truck, bolted to a pallet, it *always* arrives in totally pristine condition. My impression is that they never touch it at any point in the trip except using a forklift through the pallet itself. I'm picturing very wasteful packing of trucks (unless there are shelves inside), and it's certainly not a good deal for things that don't weigh much of anything, but it might not be such a bad idea for an RX01/02. I've heard of a TU77 being shipped coast-to-cast labeled as "scrap metal" for practically nothing and arriving in fine shape. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 17 21:51:38 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 19:51:38 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> On 03/17/2013 07:21 PM, John Wilson wrote: > I haven't done this much, but when I have stuff shipped by truck, bolted to > a pallet, it *always* arrives in totally pristine condition. My impression > is that they never touch it at any point in the trip except using a forklift > through the pallet itself. I'm picturing very wasteful packing of trucks > (unless there are shelves inside), and it's certainly not a good deal for > things that don't weigh much of anything, but it might not be such a bad > idea for an RX01/02. I've heard of a TU77 being shipped coast-to-cast > labeled as "scrap metal" for practically nothing and arriving in fine shape. Received a tape drive last month packed in nothing but a form-fitting (more or less) box with some Styrofoam on the bottom and bubble-wrap around the sides and some "peanuts" on top. Arrived UPS ground without a mark on it. That was, what, about 60 lbs.? Sometimes you get lucky. --Chuck From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Mar 17 22:13:13 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363576393.80266.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > My earliest memories of seeing computers in action were at the library. Old > ADM-3 terminals with light pens to scan in barcodes on the books and on > your library card. Plus the muffled sound of a line printer in back doing > lists of late check-outs. > > This would have been in the 1980's. The library I used to go to still had > those ADM's well into the '90s, then replaced with gray sided, amber > screened WYSE VT-100 lookalikes. But the UI looked the same, so I assume > the backend was the same. > > Anyone know what minis ran library management software back then? I know > the university I went to was all Amdhal with 5250 terminals, but the local > libraries obviously used something smaller. in the early 90's, I remember a gold coast library using a greenscreen and keyboard only terminal so customers could search the library's database i don't remember what the staff where using as I was young back them tom From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 17 22:53:09 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:53:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: re Library machines Message-ID: <11142.71d50523.3e77e9a5@aol.com> our Glendale library had a pdp 11 Ed # From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Mar 17 23:51:19 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 04:51:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <1363582279.59049.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Sorry its an English slang?expression. It just means anything thats quite heavy. An English?Ton ?is 2240 Pounds? We also?have one related to speed on a motorcycle "to do a ton" means 100 Miles per hour. Rod G8DGR ? ________________________________ From: Henk Gooijen To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sunday, 17 March 2013, 21:14 Subject: Re: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay Weight ... a ton? Correct, if "a ton" is approximately 60 lb (less than 30 kilos). Still, shipping that weight will cost money, that's true! - Henk, PA8PDP -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Perry" Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:06 PM To: Cc: Subject: Re: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay > On Mar 17, 2013, at 1:36 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > >> I have several of these beasts. >> I do go back to when they were current equipment. >> The price asked for an RX02 in unknown condition is well over the top. >> The shipping price may not be far off as they weigh a ton!! > > I got one with my 11/750 15 years ago.? I sold it for around $200, close to what > I paid for the entire system.? It was a local sale and I don't recall the drive's weight. > > alan From bear at typewritten.org Mon Mar 18 00:59:59 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:59:59 -0700 Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FB9CC4A-A1E5-4189-B980-20C2D0FCC2B2@typewritten.org> On Mar 17, 2013, at 9:27 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Anyone know what minis ran library management software back then? I know > the university I went to was all Amdhal with 5250 terminals, but the local > libraries obviously used something smaller. My local library system (Kitsap Regional, in Washington State) was computerized as far back as I can remember -- so, it was already in place by the very early '80s. The catalog system was DYNIX (totally separate and unrelated to Sequent Dynix/ptx), with GEAC terminals. I never saw the actual host hardware and it was too foreign compared to the family TRS-80 for me to have developed much curiosity about it. A perfunctory google search suggests the host was perhaps also made by GEAC. By the late '80s or early '90s you could dial into the system from home to search the catalog, make requests, place holds, and extend your due date. Around '94 the GEAC terminals all vanished at once and were replaced by PCs, though my memory of how the rest of the system evolved at that time is fuzzy as I was starting to spend more time at the University of Washington libraries (X terminals for catalog search; I never found out what the backend systems were). I think it was around '95 the Kitsap library dial-up system also started offering internet email to cardholders, as well as access to the larger internet via gopher, lynx, and telnet. It may be that the GEAC system didn't use the DYNIX software, but that DYNIX entered the picture when the GEAC terminals were replaced by PCs. It's been too long for me to be certain anymore. I definitely remember the GEAC terminals. ok bear. -- until further notice From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Mar 18 02:06:29 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 01:06:29 -0600 Subject: Retroarchive update! In-Reply-To: References: <5143D3E7.3050400@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5146BCF5.6070507@landcomp.net> On 3/17/13 1:48 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 15 Mar 2013, Dave Land wrote: > >> On 3/15/13 7:16 PM, geneb wrote: >>> The new VT220 font style sheets have been activated for the main site. >>> >>> I've also got the latest backup (2007) of Don Maslin's boot disk and ROM >>> image archive online. EVERYTHING is now available! >>> >>> As time permits, I'll get the other pages moved over to the new style >>> sheet. >>> >>> tnx! >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >> Pretty cool stuff! I finally got Firefox to display the font properly >> after I figured Ad-Block Plus was blocking some of the style-sheet >> elements. :) > > Yikes. What style sheet elements were causing a problem? > > g. > Dunno, but until I disabled Ad-Block for the site, it was rendering the fonts as Times New Roman. Afterwards they looked like they were supposed to. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Mon Mar 18 02:07:26 2013 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:07:26 -0700 Subject: Old manuals -- Need archiving? Message-ID: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> A friend sent me a list today of documents he has, wondering if they are of interest to classic computer folk. Most of these categories are outside my expertise, so I'm asking here if these should get archived, and if so who volunteers to do it :-). Here's the list: Control Data 6000 Series manuals ===================================================== Kronos 2.1 Instant Manual Control Data Cyber 70 Series Models 72/73/74 6000 Series Computer Systems Kronos 2.1 Terminal User's Instant Manual Control Data Cyber 70 Series Models 72/73/74 6000 Series Computer Systems Small (6.5" x 4") "pocket" manuals for operating the Kronos OS original printing dated 10/1973 Algol Generic Reference Manual Control Data 3000/6000 Revision A, 5/31/1968 Modify Reference Manual Control Data Cyber 170, Cyber 70, 6000 Series and 7600 computer systems Card based version control Revision E, 10/1/1974 APL*Cyber Reference Manual Control Data Cyber 170, Cyber 70, 6000 Series and 7600 computer systems Revision C, August 1974 Oregon State Open Shop Operating System (OS3) ==================================================== Assembly listing of OS3 operating system dated September 1974 Assembly language listing of core operating system. OS3 was a demand-paged, virtual memory, multi-user operating system that used a PDP8 as a front end to multiplex many teletypes scattered around the Oregon State campus. OS-3 Reference Manual for OS-3 Version 4.3 July 1973 OSU: Grope User's Manual January 1972 "Grope" (Graphical Representation of Parameterized Expressions) was an input and graphing system running on OS-3 and a Tektronix 4002A terminal. Grafit User Notes February 1973 Jeff Ballance, Jo Ann Baughman, Larry Hubble "The GRAFIT system is an interactive program for displaying data on the Tektronix terminal and/or the Calcomp plotter or on a Hewlett-Packard teletype compatible X-Y plotter and/or the Calcomp plotter." Various OSU computer center manual on editing tools Useful Features of OS-3 James S. Sasser August 1974 Primer for Users of Oregon State's Open Shop Operating System (OS-3) September 1972 A Brief Description of OSCAR (Third Revision)(Describes Version 56) Joel Davis, Gilbert A. Bachelor September 1969 "OSCAR" (Oregon State Conversational Aid to Research) is an arithmetical interpreter for use at remote teletype or CRT connections to the CDC 3300." OSCAR: A User's Manual with Examples (revised September 1969) Jo Ann Baughman, Mary Lynn Berryman, Joel Davis September, 1969 MISC ==================================================== Concurrent Pascal - Introduction Per Brinch Hansen Concurrent Pascal Machine Per Brinch Hansen Concurrent Pascal Report Per Brinch Hansen Sequential Pascal Report Per Brinch Hansen Alfred C. Hartmann Information Science California Institute of Technology 7"x10" manuals published in July 1975 Laural Manual Douglas K. Brotz Palo Alto Research Center "Laural is an Alto-based, display-oriented, computer mail system interface." published May 1981 Sail Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory Memo AIM-289, Report STAN-CS-76-578 edited by John F. Reiser August 1976 "Sail is a high-level programming language for the PDP-10 computer. It includes an extended ALGOL 60 compiler and a companion set of execution-time routines. In addition to ALGOL, the language features: (1) flexible linking to hard-coded machine language algorithms, (2) complete access to the PDP-10 I/O facilities, (3) a complete system of compile-time arithmetic and logic as well as a flexible macro system, (4) a high-level debugger, (5) records and references, (6) sets and lists, (7) an associative data structure, (8) independent processes, (0) procedure varaiables(sic), (10) user modifiable error handling, (11) backtracking, and (12) interrupt facilities." various UNIX 'man' printouts and misc manuals. Things like: Berkeley Font Catalog (October 1980) Typesetting Mathematics -- User's Guide (Second Edition) Brian W. Kerninghan and Lorinda L. Cherry Bell Laboratories, August 1978 Typing Documents on the UNIX System: Using the -ms Macros with Troff and Nroff M.E. Lesk Bell Laboratories, May 1982 ... many more UNIX Nroff and Troff manuals ba.uuYumYum (March 1986) a dining guide compiled from reviews public in group ba.general -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From craig at solomonson.net Sun Mar 17 18:32:26 2013 From: craig at solomonson.net (Craig Solomonson) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:32:26 -0500 Subject: Resurrecting a Bendix G-15 Message-ID: <8e4be175ad314f9ab0f5ebe075accc8a.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> I was going through some boxes of old documents as I prepare to thin out my computer collection and ran across a couple leads that I had 30+ years ago on a couple early vacuum tube era computers--one was a Bendix G-15 and the other was a Royal Precision LGP-30. Thought it would be fun to see if either computer was still there and turns out that the Bendix G-15 is buried in a storage unit yet! I haven't heard back on the LGP-30 yet. When the weather warms up, I will get a chance to help dig out the Bendix and hopefully make a deal on it. Apparently, the Bendix was operational before going into storage in the mid-1970's. So, what are the chances that after sitting for almost 40 years that it would still be operational? I know that vaccum tubes can deteriorate but those are easy to replace. What about the capacitors, resistors, and diodes? I do not know if the storage unit was climate controlled, but if not, I assume corrosion could be a problem with all the contacts. What other issues might one expect with an old system like this? Unfortunately, I am not an electronics expert but always like a challenge. I now regret selling my Bendix Diode tester a few years ago on eBay! Maybe I will have to rent in some day if I make the deal! From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 02:29:52 2013 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:29:52 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey! I take exception to that.... Some McDonalds are corporate owned. ;) On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 6:26 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 3/17/2013 3:02 PM, Richard wrote: > >> In article <51463B65.6060008 at gmail.com>, >> mc68010 writes: >> >> The UPS stores are the worst. [...] >>> >> No. >> >> Ebay sellers who don't put any padding around an item are the worst. >> >> UPS may not be the *cheapest* but what good is saving a few bucks on >> shipping when the stuff arrives smashed beyond repair. >> > > I had stuff packed at a UPS store arrive in many pieces too. Again UPS > stores are individual franchises and the quality of any service you get is > totally dependent on the store and the employee that packs it. UPS doesn't > run or operate any of them. It's just like going into a McDonalds. The > store owners are just paying for the right to use the UPS logo more than > anything. It may be great at one and garbage at another. > > Besides I don't even understand your point. You would be the shipper and > you can pack it as well as you like. Are you saying you wouldn't be able to > pack it safely and so have to take it to a store ? I am not sure what this > has to to do with getting something from a ebay sale. I've got stuff packed > great from ebay sellers and then stuff just thrown in a box with no padding > at all. I mean nothing. Funny enough some of the non-packed stuff has made > it fine and some of the over packed stuff got destroyed. Sometimes the > greatest packing in the world won't save it. > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From robin at hx-20.com Mon Mar 18 04:22:55 2013 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:22:55 -0000 Subject: Flextra BR-3020 or BR-3225 25/50MB Floppy Drive Message-ID: On 03/13/2013 01:46 PM, Robin England wrote: > On 03/12/2013 09:29 AM, Robin England wrote: >> Does anyone have a Brier Technology BR-3020 or BR-3225 high >> capacity floppy drive I could borrow please? > >> Wouldn't an Insite I325VM work just as well if reading is your >> object? I suspect that there are far more of them than the Brier >> units. > >> --Chuck > > Thanks Chuck. Do you know for sure that the I325VM can read the > Flextra 25MB discs? > >No, unfortunately, I can't say for certain Two companies, both in San >Jose (wasn't Insite on "Fortran Drive"?) offering similar capacities >using similar techniques at about the same time. > >The 25MB, as I understand it is "unformatted' capacity, so both drives >are fairly close in advertised capacity. Both use zoned recording and >RLL, but beyond that I can only say that the Insite devices are/were >more common and so probably worth a shot. > >IIRC, Insite also trademarked the term "floptical"... > >?Chuck Thanks Chuck. I have procured the I325VM now and will post back when I have empirical knowledge about the compatibility. Cheers Robin From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Mar 18 08:58:13 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:58:13 +0100 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1363615093.12726.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> s?n 2013-03-17 klockan 17:43 -0700 skrev mc68010: > > I had someone actually ship me a IBM 14" VGA monitor in an empty box by > Parcel Post. He seriously just put it in the box and took it to the post > office. Not even in there tight. There was 2 inches around it on all > side and it just sat on it's plastic stand. It arrived in perfect > shape. My mind was blown when I opened the box. I didn't know if I > should be angry or jump for joy. When the shipping gods decide it gets > there safe it gets there safe. When they decide it won't it wont no > matter what. It is not for us mortal men to understand their whims. Here in Sweden it is a common practise in Public Service TV every christmas evening to air "Karl-Bertil Jonssons Julafton". It is a bit like "Mr Scrooge" but from the other side. Ah, well Karl-Bertil works as a christmas mail office clerk - every packet with 'Fragile' written on gets tossed 5 feet to check the sound (everyone in the office does so. :-) ) and with a twist: - Karl-Bertil has the "taxeringskalendern" in his head and well he puts away a number of christmas packets addressed to the 70 most well paid families in the local town (inc his own father) in a privat sack. At christmas eve he tells his family that he must work extra in the post office and so he goes of in a taxi. In the taxi he asks the driver to drive him to the towns 'lower east side' (the poor quarters.) He then deliver the packets as an impromptu St Nicholas to the poor families. Two days later his parents learns of his 'detour' but learns that the 'poor' souls who didnt get the presents really didnt mind and they in fact applauded the young man. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 18 09:36:16 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:36:16 -0700 Subject: Resurrecting a Bendix G-15 In-Reply-To: <8e4be175ad314f9ab0f5ebe075accc8a.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> References: <8e4be175ad314f9ab0f5ebe075accc8a.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:32:26 -0500 > Subject: Resurrecting a Bendix G-15 > From: craig at solomonson.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > I was going through some boxes of old documents as I prepare to thin out > my computer collection and ran across a couple leads that I had 30+ years > ago on a couple early vacuum tube era computers--one was a Bendix G-15 and > the other was a Royal Precision LGP-30. Thought it would be fun to see if > either computer was still there and turns out that the Bendix G-15 is > buried in a storage unit yet! I haven't heard back on the LGP-30 yet. When > the weather warms up, I will get a chance to help dig out the Bendix and > hopefully make a deal on it. > > Apparently, the Bendix was operational before going into storage in the > mid-1970's. So, what are the chances that after sitting for almost 40 > years that it would still be operational? I know that vaccum tubes can > deteriorate but those are easy to replace. What about the capacitors, > resistors, and diodes? I do not know if the storage unit was climate > controlled, but if not, I assume corrosion could be a problem with all the > contacts. What other issues might one expect with an old system like this? > > Unfortunately, I am not an electronics expert but always like a challenge. > I now regret selling my Bendix Diode tester a few years ago on eBay! Maybe > I will have to rent in some day if I make the deal! Electrolytics will be the biggest issue. Most will fail ( if they even can be revived )when you apply voltage. There are a number of web pages on reforming these.Paper capacitors will often be leaky. The worst ones are the ones that lookthe best. Some of black plastic ones are the worst. I've seen some wax coveredones that look really bad that work fine with no leakage.Resistor will most likely be carbon comp types. In most cases, these willstill work when quite a bit off tolarence. Still measure any that look tobe over heated or cracked. I've seen them as much as 2 time the valueof the band. I would guess that even though it is tube, it most likely useddiodes for gate expansion. Diodes are usually OK but don't be surprisedto find one of two that are shorted.Keep a log of every part you replace with a newer one for historic purposes.Dwight From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Mar 18 10:03:02 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:03:02 -0500 Subject: PC Cassette Interfacing (Was: Re: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51472CA6.4040003@brutman.com> A few days late, but still interesting and on-topic ... http://www.brutman.com/Cassette_Waveforms/Cassette_Waveforms.html One day I'll graduate to a real o-scope or analyzer and have some fun. Mike From martinm at allwest.net Mon Mar 18 09:45:55 2013 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:45:55 -0600 Subject: Resurrecting a Bendix G-15 In-Reply-To: <8e4be175ad314f9ab0f5ebe075accc8a.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> References: <8e4be175ad314f9ab0f5ebe075accc8a.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> Message-ID: <006201ce23e7$4bacdac0$e3069040$@net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Craig Solomonson > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:32 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Resurrecting a Bendix G-15 > > I was going through some boxes of old documents as I prepare to thin > out my computer collection and ran across a couple leads that I had 30+ > years ago on a couple early vacuum tube era computers--one was a Bendix > G-15 and the other was a Royal Precision LGP-30. Thought it would be > fun to see if either computer was still there and turns out that the > Bendix G-15 is buried in a storage unit yet! I haven't heard back on > the LGP-30 yet. When the weather warms up, I will get a chance to help > dig out the Bendix and hopefully make a deal on it. > Was the G-15 at the University of Oklahoma? There was a G-15 at OU in the late 60's that was used by a math / computer club at the time. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 18 10:22:54 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:22:54 -0500 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1363429808.10396.YahooMailNeo@web87803.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <00ec01ce21be$3dccfc30$b966f490$@com> <1363429808.10396.YahooMailNeo@web87803.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5147314E.2000006@compsys.to> >R SMALLWOOD wrote: >I have several of these beasts. >I do go back to when they were current equipment. >The price asked for an RX02 in unknown condition is well over the top. >The shipping price may not be far off as they weigh a ton!! > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Filip Maj >Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:27 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay > >Here is the link: > >http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151012639827 > > I just looked at other DEC Qbus boards for sale. There were a number by newsgroups (in Canada) in addition to the RX02 which is also in Canada, actually quite close to me. Has anyone ever purchased anything (or at least had any contact) with newsgroups? Any idea if there is an e-mail address or a phone number? Jerome Fine From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 10:30:56 2013 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:30:56 -0700 Subject: Free: Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc Desktop In-Reply-To: <514623E1.3050301@gmail.com> References: <514623E1.3050301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51473330.8000501@gmail.com> On 3/17/2013 1:13 PM, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: > Dug up a copy of Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc Desktop while sorting out my > stuff...All the manuals and disks all seem to be in the box...I know > its a bit useless and dated considering other better OS alternatives > for older Sparcs. Does anybody want this? I'll just send it in a USPS > flat rate box. Contact me off the list if interested. I am in the San > Diego area, 91942. > > -Kurt This has been claimed. Thanks for the offers, everyone! -Kurt From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Mon Mar 18 12:16:07 2013 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:16:07 -0700 Subject: Old manuals -- Need archiving? In-Reply-To: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> References: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> Message-ID: Al Kossow who runs bitsavers.org seems to be your best bet. He is a saint for doing this, from my experiences, he is extremely busy with a huge backlog of donated manuals to scan/archive. I also have lots of unneeded manuals and I am honestly little reluctant sending him anything as Im afraid they would just sit and never get scanned. I wish there were more folks out there with fancy document scanners to do the grunt work of scanning documents for Al. I am sure I am not alone here. A whole army of scanners is probably whats needed! On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > A friend sent me a list today of documents he has, wondering if they are of > interest to classic computer folk. Most of these categories are outside my > expertise, so I'm asking here if these should get archived, and if so who > volunteers to do it :-). > > Here's the list: > > Control Data 6000 Series manuals > ===================================================== > Kronos 2.1 Instant Manual > Control Data Cyber 70 Series Models 72/73/74 6000 Series Computer > Systems > Kronos 2.1 Terminal User's Instant Manual > Control Data Cyber 70 Series Models 72/73/74 6000 Series Computer > Systems > > Small (6.5" x 4") "pocket" manuals for operating the Kronos OS > original printing dated 10/1973 > > Algol Generic Reference Manual > Control Data 3000/6000 > Revision A, 5/31/1968 > > Modify Reference Manual > Control Data Cyber 170, Cyber 70, 6000 Series and 7600 computer systems > Card based version control > Revision E, 10/1/1974 > > APL*Cyber Reference Manual > Control Data Cyber 170, Cyber 70, 6000 Series and 7600 computer systems > Revision C, August 1974 > > Oregon State Open Shop Operating System (OS3) > ==================================================== > Assembly listing of OS3 operating system dated September 1974 > Assembly language listing of core operating system. > OS3 was a demand-paged, virtual memory, multi-user operating system > that used a PDP8 as a front end to multiplex many teletypes scattered > around the Oregon State campus. > > OS-3 Reference Manual for OS-3 Version 4.3 > July 1973 > > OSU: Grope User's Manual > January 1972 > > "Grope" (Graphical Representation of Parameterized Expressions) was an > input and graphing system running on OS-3 and a Tektronix 4002A > terminal. > > Grafit User Notes > February 1973 > Jeff Ballance, Jo Ann Baughman, Larry Hubble > "The GRAFIT system is an interactive program for displaying data on the > Tektronix terminal and/or the Calcomp plotter or on a Hewlett-Packard > teletype compatible X-Y plotter and/or the Calcomp plotter." > > Various OSU computer center manual on editing tools > > Useful Features of OS-3 > James S. Sasser > August 1974 > > Primer for Users of Oregon State's Open Shop Operating System (OS-3) > September 1972 > > A Brief Description of OSCAR (Third Revision)(Describes Version 56) > Joel Davis, Gilbert A. Bachelor > September 1969 > > "OSCAR" (Oregon State Conversational Aid to Research) is an > arithmetical interpreter for use at remote teletype or CRT connections > to the CDC 3300." > > OSCAR: A User's Manual with Examples (revised September 1969) > Jo Ann Baughman, Mary Lynn Berryman, Joel Davis > September, 1969 > > > MISC > ==================================================== > Concurrent Pascal - Introduction > Per Brinch Hansen > Concurrent Pascal Machine > Per Brinch Hansen > Concurrent Pascal Report > Per Brinch Hansen > Sequential Pascal Report > Per Brinch Hansen > Alfred C. Hartmann > Information Science California Institute of Technology > 7"x10" manuals published in July 1975 > > Laural Manual > Douglas K. Brotz > Palo Alto Research Center > > "Laural is an Alto-based, display-oriented, computer mail system > interface." > published May 1981 > > Sail > Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory > Memo AIM-289, Report STAN-CS-76-578 > edited by John F. Reiser > August 1976 > > "Sail is a high-level programming language for the PDP-10 computer. It > includes > an extended ALGOL 60 compiler and a companion set of execution-time > routines. In > addition to ALGOL, the language features: (1) flexible linking to > hard-coded machine > language algorithms, (2) complete access to the PDP-10 I/O facilities, > (3) a complete > system of compile-time arithmetic and logic as well as a flexible macro > system, (4) a > high-level debugger, (5) records and references, (6) sets and lists, > (7) an associative > data structure, (8) independent processes, (0) procedure > varaiables(sic), (10) user > modifiable error handling, (11) backtracking, and (12) interrupt > facilities." > > various UNIX 'man' printouts and misc manuals. > Things like: > Berkeley Font Catalog (October 1980) > Typesetting Mathematics -- User's Guide (Second Edition) > Brian W. Kerninghan and Lorinda L. Cherry > Bell Laboratories, August 1978 > Typing Documents on the UNIX System: Using the -ms Macros with Troff > and Nroff > M.E. Lesk > Bell Laboratories, May 1982 > ... many more UNIX Nroff and Troff manuals > ba.uuYumYum (March 1986) > a dining guide compiled from reviews public in group ba.general > > -- > o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! > From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Mar 18 12:26:35 2013 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 17:26:35 +0000 Subject: Library machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513812F7D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I think the North Suburban Library System (NSLS) in the NW suburbs of chicago had a PDP11 type system. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason McBrien Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:28 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Library machines My earliest memories of seeing computers in action were at the library. Old ADM-3 terminals with light pens to scan in barcodes on the books and on your library card. Plus the muffled sound of a line printer in back doing lists of late check-outs. This would have been in the 1980's. The library I used to go to still had those ADM's well into the '90s, then replaced with gray sided, amber screened WYSE VT-100 lookalikes. But the UI looked the same, so I assume the backend was the same. Anyone know what minis ran library management software back then? I know the university I went to was all Amdhal with 5250 terminals, but the local libraries obviously used something smaller. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 18 13:03:46 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:03:46 -0500 Subject: old scanners Message-ID: <009901ce2402$efc4a6e0$cf4df4a0$@com> I have 2 old, heavy machines that I looked up on Google over 10 years ago. 1 appears to be Unix-only document scanner with sheet feeder. The original software, which came on 5.25" floppies, had OCR software. I MIGHT still have the floppies here somewhere. Anyone interested in these 2 old beasts? Bell & Howell Classic TDR-500 is apparently for microfilm capture? Parts are still readily available online, if needed. Xerox K5200 model SA4-2 with ADF-4, includes 2 very thick cables. Both very dusty/dirty, never turned on. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6185 - Release Date: 03/17/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 18 13:14:24 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:14:24 -0500 Subject: flatbed scanners with ADF Message-ID: <00a701ce2404$6baa6000$42ff2000$@com> We have 10+ flat bed scanners, mostly SCSI, with ADF attachments. Most of them are HP, a few are AGFA or another brand. $20 each plus shipping, tested working. No software included. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6185 - Release Date: 03/17/13 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 18 13:25:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:25:40 -0700 Subject: Old manuals -- Need archiving? In-Reply-To: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> References: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> Message-ID: <51475C24.2030403@sydex.com> On 03/18/2013 12:07 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > A friend sent me a list today of documents he has, wondering if they are > of interest to classic computer folk. Most of these categories are > outside my expertise, so I'm asking here if these should get archived, > and if so who volunteers to do it :-). I'm certain that Al K. will be interested in those not already on bitsavers. CDC "Modify" is a great illustration of what happens when a company allows regional rivalries cam suck the life out of development budgets. MODIFY was a CVS-type utility that exactly paralleled (and probably was a derivative of) the UPDATE utility. MODIFY was used by MACE/KRONOS people and UPDATE was used by SCOPE/NOSBE people. UPDATE and SCOPE were pretty much West Coast products and KRONOS/MACE were east-of-the-Rockies projects. SCOPE is a descendant of the old Chipppewa OS and MACE/KRONOS was a product bootlegged by Greg Mansfield and Dave Callender of the CDC Arden Hills (MN) ops. "MACE" is an acronym for "Mansfield's Answer for Customer Engineering". I'd met Dave Callender (whose real interest was bats and knew Greg Mansfield quite well (he eventually ended up at Cray). Both thought that they had a good idea and found it easier to bootleg a compatible (to SCOPE) product than convince the administration that they had a better way. Eventually, this lead to a rivalry, then an attempt to merge the two (largely compatible) OS projects, costing thousands of man-hours and a two-culture dichotomy in program development. I can't help but think that this hurt CDC greatly. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 18 15:36:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:36:51 -0600 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord Message-ID: OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also rounded instead of angled. I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the older oddball you're looking for... Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the museum, if we can't figure it out by then. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 18 15:40:05 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:40:05 -0700 Subject: Old manuals -- Need archiving? In-Reply-To: References: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> Message-ID: <51477BA5.2030702@bitsavers.org> On 3/18/13 10:16 AM, Kurt Nowak wrote: > Al Kossow who runs bitsavers.org seems to be your best bet. I sent a msg saying that I was interested. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 18 15:46:31 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:46:31 -0600 Subject: Old manuals -- Need archiving? In-Reply-To: References: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> Message-ID: In article , Kurt Nowak writes: > Al Kossow who runs bitsavers.org seems to be your best bet. He is a > saint for doing this, from my experiences, he is extremely busy with a > huge backlog of donated manuals to scan/archive. I also have lots of > unneeded manuals and I am honestly little reluctant sending him > anything as Im afraid they would just sit and never get scanned. I > wish there were more folks out there with fancy document scanners to > do the grunt work of scanning documents for Al. I am sure I am not > alone here. A whole army of scanners is probably whats needed! I help out Al by offloading scanning for him when I can. I do lots of scanning for bitsavers. I am happy to have other cctalk members send me documents for scanning. For instance I recently scanned a bunch of Stardent documentation: I have access to a nice 600dpi optical sheet feed scanner at work that makes quick work of most things. Stuff that is in 3-ring binders or loose sheets works best. Stuff that is spiral bound is the next easiest to scan and stuff that is glue or sewn bound is the most amount of work. I tend to scan stuff that is of interest to me personally, so that means that terminals and graphics items tend to go to the head of the queue for me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 15:49:46 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:49:46 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > > I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try > googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the > older oddball you're looking for... > > Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying > the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. > > I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember > to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the > museum, if we can't figure it out by then. Maybe one of these as shown on Brent's page here: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html#163 Belden 17952 or 17280, depending on polarization. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 18 15:54:24 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:54:24 +0100 Subject: eBay: PDP9 (or 15?) core memory Message-ID: <51477F00.8090902@hachti.de> Hi folks, there's an interesting complete core memory system on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190813695638 And yes: I'm the seller. But it does not come from my personal collection: I'm selling it for someone else. Perhaps someone on the list likes it. Personal offers by E-mail, not E-Bay... Kind regards, Philipp :-) -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 18 15:52:36 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:52:36 -0600 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <5146813A.1040000 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > Arrived UPS ground without a mark on it. That was, what, about 60 lbs.? > > Sometimes you get lucky. As most people on this list know, I buy terminals. They're big. They're heavy. They're fragile. I've bought a large number of them. Every single time one has been damaged, it was due to J. Random Ebay User trying to pinch a few bucks on shipping and not packing it properly. It really didn't matter who the carrier was: UPS, USPS, or FedEx, they've all sent me damaged goods and it was *always* because the seller didn't pack it properly. So when I make comments about what has been reliable for me, it's not based on a single one-off experiment, it's based literally on hundreds examples over 10 years. You can shout till the cows come home that I'm wrong and you hate UPS, or whatever, but data is data. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 18 15:54:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:54:55 -0600 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Naturally right after sending the message, I think I found a picture of it. Notice that they are out of stock on these, but this looks exactly like what I need. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 18 15:55:06 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:55:06 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2013 Mar 18, at 1:36 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > > I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try > googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the > older oddball you're looking for... > > Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying > the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. > > I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember > to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the > museum, if we can't figure it out by then. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html Sometimes you can replace the chassis inlet, but if you really want a cordset, bottom of page: http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/wallwarts.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 18 15:59:04 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:59:04 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51478018.5060204@sydex.com> On 03/18/2013 01:36 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > > I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try > googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the > older oddball you're looking for... > > Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying > the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. > > I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember > to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the > museum, if we can't figure it out by then. Videx used to make them, but hasn't in some time. However, they're still be sold as rara aves and command good prices: http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/hp1.html (I'm sure there are other sellers--this just popped to the top of my bookmarks) But be careful--I understand that there exist varieties with the "hot" and "neutral" sides of the line swapped. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 18 16:08:25 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1363640905.96742.YahooMailClassic@web181502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/18/13, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Needed: older connector power cord > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 1:36 PM > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with > the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades > and the > only the ground pin being round.? The entire plug > socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > > I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but > you try > googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can > find the > older oddball you're looking for... > > Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in > identifying > the exact standard/specification for this kind of > connector. > > I'm looking for cords that fit the connector.? I will > try to remember > to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down > at the > museum, if we can't figure it out by then. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > ? ???The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ???The Terminals Wiki > > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) If you search ebay for 'oval power cord' you will find many for sale. Never cheap though. Bob > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 18 16:16:28 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:16:28 -0500 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f301ce241d$daf4a240$90dde6c0$@com> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets lots of pics of the various types here -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 3:37 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Needed: older connector power cord OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also rounded instead of angled. I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the older oddball you're looking for... Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the museum, if we can't figure it out by then. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6185 - Release Date: 03/17/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6185 - Release Date: 03/17/13 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 18 16:18:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 17:18:15 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51478497.2090003@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2013 04:52 PM, Richard wrote: >> Arrived UPS ground without a mark on it. That was, what, about 60 lbs.? >> >> Sometimes you get lucky. > > As most people on this list know, I buy terminals. They're big. > They're heavy. They're fragile. I've bought a large number of them. > > Every single time one has been damaged, it was due to J. Random Ebay > User trying to pinch a few bucks on shipping and not packing it > properly. It really didn't matter who the carrier was: UPS, USPS, or > FedEx, they've all sent me damaged goods and it was *always* because > the seller didn't pack it properly. > > So when I make comments about what has been reliable for me, it's not > based on a single one-off experiment, it's based literally on hundreds > examples over 10 years. > > You can shout till the cows come home that I'm wrong and you hate UPS, > or whatever, but data is data. Some peoples' data differs from yours. Get over it. There's nothing inherently good or bad, company-wide, about UPS or FedEx or any of the others. In the end it's all up to the individual employees, who are almost always clock-watchers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 18 16:18:48 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:18:48 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514784B8.9070802@jwsss.com> perhaps like the one in this auction for a Wurlitzer? http://www.ebay.com/itm/121072536510 thanks Jim On 3/18/2013 1:36 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > > I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try > googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the > older oddball you're looking for... > > Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying > the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. > > I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember > to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the > museum, if we can't figure it out by then. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 18 16:08:30 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:08:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Q-Bus DLV11 M7940 SLU Documentation In-Reply-To: from "Paul Birkel" at Mar 17, 13 01:11:42 pm Message-ID: > > --f46d0444e88960605904d821f7a5 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Can some kind soul point me to the technical documentation for the Q-Bus > DLV11 M7940 Serial Line Unit? It has a 2x20 pin-out connector of unknown. > I gather that it's a pretty common card, so I'd expect the documentation to > still be "out there" ... like the truth :->. > > Not the DLV11-J, which is the 4-line card. > > The only good news is that the MC1488 and MC1489 are nearby, which will > help a little. But documentation is *much* better! Probably any of its > variants will do just fine (e.g., M7940-YA "M7940 W EXTRA WIRES TO BRING > OUT CLOCK & 110/300 SPEED CHG"). It should be much the same as the pinout for the DL11 (Unibus) seiral interface or even the DL8 (Omnibus). It's a very ocommon DEC serial port pinout. If there's no documetnaiuton on _any_ of thsoe out there, I will eat a PDP11 or something. One trap for the unwary. These cards, or at least some of them, have both RS232 and current loop interfaces on them. The outputs of the 2 possible receive buffers (1489 for the RS232, a nopo-isolator bnsed circuit for current loop) appear on pins of this conenctor, as does the inptu to the UART chip. You have pumper the appropriate pair of pins on the connecotr of your cable. if you don't, you'll never receive anything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 18 16:41:47 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:41:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Mar 17, 13 09:07:14 pm Message-ID: > A guy in Florida sent me a Xerox 820-II in a box that didn't allow any > space around the system. The keyboard was just sitting on top of the CPU > and the box flaps closed over it. The result was not pretty. I spent > about two days straightening out metal parts and super-glued the case > (which was broken into a half-dozen pieces) back together. Doesn't look > all that bad and works fine. I have neve had much luck with isocyano acryllic hydro-copolymerising adhesives for this sort of thing. If you can find a solvent for the plastic (dichlormethane works on some common plastics) [1] then you cna often make a much stronger repair. I oonce had an HP9826 shipped to me with totally inandequare packageing (put it i na box, poour expanded polystyrene bits around it, nothing to stop it moving to one side of the box). It arrived wit hthe case quite badly broken, the fan mounting cracked, etc. The amazing thing (and the rason I kept it) was that all the PCbs were intact as was the CRT. In fact it wokred perfectly. I took ti totlaly paert. Or the cace I drileld sitalbe holes and used self-tapping screws to fix the brokent bits (HP used plastic about 5/16" thick...). For the fan mountint, I bolted metal plates over the cracks. Doesn't look all that neat, but it's as strong as the original. > > Later the same month (must have been something in the water), I was a sent > a Corvus 20-Meg drive packed in the same manner (this despite an explicit > request to BE CAREFUL with packing). Every plastic post inside the unit > was snapped off from repeated handling by the Samsonite gorillas, but > incredibly the hard disk survived. It has lonk been my supsiecion that the poatal 'service' speak a differeent loanguage to the rest of us and that 'delicate scientific instuemnt' is postal-speak for 'please use this parcel for playing (American) football'... That said, I ahve had thigns that IMHO were totally inadequetly packed (thrown in a box with crumpled newspaper) arrived undamaged. And I have never hadn a properlay packed device get damaged. The best packing IMHO, whcih some surplus dealers use, is that expaning foeam that fills the box and supports the deivce in the middle of it. > They don't make equipment with this kind of durability any more... Remembr that some old plastics turn very brittle and that therefore some loder devices can be delicate. YEs, I am thinkign for HP9800 keyboard bezels, which crack if you look at them wrongly. The HP9100 calculaotr may look as though it is built like a brick privy, and, yes, for the most part it is sold. But a sharp knock can fracture the electroe support rods in the CRT. If the electrodes the short together, you can end up blowing out transistors all over the chassis when you power the thing up. Not to mention having to find a new CRT. All old devices should eb packed well IMHO. It's werth paying extra to get proper packing. -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 16:42:52 2013 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:42:52 -0500 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced References: Message-ID: <17C2E90CB06C4610B2437D6C083E6700@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:14:10 -0700 From: Jim Stephens On 3/13/2013 1:41 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> - >> Pretty much every collection has that happen when the owner dies or fall >> on hard times. At least some of it will go on in another persons >> collection. >This was not either of those circumstances, unless you call unethical and >possibly illegal behavior toward the individual "hard times". >I am hopeful most can own the place they store their collections or can at >least have some real control. renting can result in what happened in this >case. ... ----- Reply: No, there are laws in pretty well every jurisdiction that protect a *responsible* renter from this sort of thing and are in fact generally even biased in the renter's favour. But repeatedly not paying the rent on time (or at all), jerking the landlord around with excuses, broken promises and missed deadlines, taking him to court to fight a justified eviction and no doubt costing him considerable money in legal fees etc., and, finally, not clearing out the contents when given the opportunity to do so, *THAT'S* what usually predictably results in what happened in this case. You're right, this is not a case of the owner dying or falling on hard times with no way of coming up with the rent (like selling off a duplicate piece or two or asking for help); it's irresponsibility and negligence and if I'd donated something in good faith I'd be pretty pissed when I saw it being flogged on eBay as a result... m From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 18 16:16:46 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:16:46 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5147843E.8000806@jwsss.com> perhaps like the one in this auction for a Wurlitzer? http://www.ebay.com/itm/121072536510 thanks Jim On 3/18/2013 1:36 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > > I've tried to find a relevant picture on the interwebs, but you try > googling "power coord connector" sometime and see if you can find the > older oddball you're looking for... > > Hopefully my description alone is enough to aid someone in identifying > the exact standard/specification for this kind of connector. > > I'm looking for cords that fit the connector. I will try to remember > to take a picture with my phone on Wednesday when I am down at the > museum, if we can't figure it out by then. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 16:59:17 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 17:59:17 -0400 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1DAE8042-CF68-4C0A-95A7-7A1C4FAA9049@gmail.com> On Mar 18, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Richard wrote: > Every single time one has been damaged, it was due to J. Random Ebay > User trying to pinch a few bucks on shipping and not packing it > properly. It really didn't matter who the carrier was: UPS, USPS, or > FedEx, they've all sent me damaged goods and it was *always* because > the seller didn't pack it properly. How well do you find the Instapak stuff works? It looks like it should be just about ideal, but I have no data to support that other than the fact that the two or three heavy items I've had shipped to me in it came through fine. > You can shout till the cows come home that I'm wrong and you hate UPS, > or whatever, but data is data. I dislike UPS for various reasons, but breaking packages is not one of them. And with the way the mail carriers in Philadelphia treat my mail (including rubber-banding packages to my door handle on a busy city street), I'm liking them a lot better than the USPS these days. Come to think of it, the only thing I've really disliked about any of the carriers in the past is poor customer service in depots or franchises, and they're all better than the USPS here in SW Philly. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 18 17:25:48 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130318152243.H86301@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013, Richard wrote: > Naturally right after sending the message, I think I found a picture of it. > > Notice that they are out of stock on these, but this looks exactly > like what I need. Like this?: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181095159193 Those were the "standard" removable power cords before IEC From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 18:15:34 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:15:34 -0700 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5147A016.3020308@gmail.com> On 3/18/2013 1:52 PM, Richard wrote: > You can shout till the cows come home that I'm wrong and you hate UPS, > or whatever, but data is data. I would just point out my comments were directed at the UPS stores. I don't hate UPS or even the stores. The stores are just a lot more expensive then packing it yourself and shipping it online. Experts on the gear being shipped will pack it better anyway. Random ebay user has no real relevance to the UPS store packing. The two are in no way connected. There is no "Ship UPS Store" option on ebay auctions. You are still going to have to deal with random ebay seller shipping if the UPS stores exist or not. Saying UPS Stores pack better then bad ebay shippers is true but, what's even the point of saying that ? UPS Store is only an option if you are shipping something yourself. In which case you could just pack it yourself and save a ton of money. As an expert in terminals I suspect you could pack one better than any teenager making $10/hr at a UPS store if you wanted to. I guess it would also be true to say you are a better at packing than a random ebay seller but, unfortunately you are not a valid ebay shipping option either. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Mar 18 18:21:36 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 17:21:36 -0600 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? Message-ID: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> OK, so I dug the Kaypro II back out of storage now that I have some usable floppy disks, thanks to a good friend. :) Anyway, I found out that the current A: drive wasn't being detected in the BIOS on my disk creation machine. B: disk works fine. Checked all connections and made sure everything was seated properly, and still no luck. So I pulled both drives and inspected everything and then just swapped positions and re-installed them, hoping that the different positions on the cable was what selects which drive is which. Well, not so. The machine still tries to select the original A: drive. Is there a jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive ID? Any ideas? -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 18:26:18 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 18:26:18 -0500 Subject: eBay: PDP9 (or 15?) core memory In-Reply-To: <51477F00.8090902@hachti.de> References: <51477F00.8090902@hachti.de> Message-ID: bids see if i can get it for pegcity bits... doubts it but who knows. anyone thats wondering its early stages of central canadian computer history museum. http://pegcitybits.com/ located in my home office for now On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > there's an interesting complete core memory system on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=**190813695638 > > And yes: I'm the seller. But it does not come from my personal collection: > I'm selling it for someone else. > > Perhaps someone on the list likes it. Personal offers by E-mail, not > E-Bay... > > Kind regards, > > Philipp :-) > > > -- > > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover > Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 > Fax. 0511/3500439 > hachti at hachti.de > www.tiegeldruck.de > > UStdID DE 202668329 > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 18:27:31 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 18:27:31 -0500 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: proper photo of the entire collection of these things http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/8570526704/in/photostream/lightbox/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 18 18:45:16 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013, Dave Land wrote: > OK, so I dug the Kaypro II back out of storage now that I have some > usable floppy disks, thanks to a good friend. :) > > Anyway, I found out that the current A: drive wasn't being detected in > the BIOS on my disk creation machine. WAITAMINIT. Is "the Kaypro II" "disk creation machine" the same machine, or are you talking about two different machines? > B: disk works fine. Checked all > connections and made sure everything was seated properly, and still no > luck. So I pulled both drives and inspected everything and then just > swapped positions and re-installed them, hoping that the different > positions on the cable was what selects which drive is which. Well, not > so. The machine still tries to select the original A: drive. Is there a thought that you said that A: wasn't detected? > jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive > ID? Any ideas? YES, there is. What make and model drive are you using? Near where the cable attaches, there are jumpers for drive select. Depending on the brand of drive, it might be break-out DIP, DIP switches, solder pads, or plug-in jumpers. IBM PC used the SECOND position of those, (and the Tandon TM100 drive had break-out DIP) and then played games with twisting parts of the cable. Others used a plain cable and set the drive select. TRS80 removed pins in the cable connector of all the drives that were not to be selected. I don't remember which way Kaypro interrupted the drive select signals. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 18 18:52:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:52:40 -0400 Subject: sperry univac stamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5147A8C8.3090709@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2013 07:27 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > proper photo of the entire collection of these things > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/8570526704/in/photostream/lightbox/ Wow. VERY cool! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 18 18:51:51 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 00:51:51 +0100 Subject: eBay: PDP9 (or 15?) core memory In-Reply-To: <51477F00.8090902@hachti.de> References: <51477F00.8090902@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5147A897.6090501@hachti.de> Thanks to a hint I got from Michael Thompson I know now: It's a 4k stack from a PDP-15. Not PDP-9. Ph -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Mar 18 18:57:36 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 17:57:36 -0600 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5147A9F0.9030107@landcomp.net> On 3/18/13 5:21 PM, Dave Land wrote: > OK, so I dug the Kaypro II back out of storage now that I have some > usable floppy disks, thanks to a good friend. :) > > Anyway, I found out that the current A: drive wasn't being detected in > the BIOS on my disk creation machine. B: disk works fine. Checked all > connections and made sure everything was seated properly, and still no > luck. So I pulled both drives and inspected everything and then just > swapped positions and re-installed them, hoping that the different > positions on the cable was what selects which drive is which. Well, not > so. The machine still tries to select the original A: drive. Is there a > jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive > ID? Any ideas? LOL, I actually answered my own question. I found a Kaypro tech manual here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/kaypro/1484-D_KayproTechnicalManual_Dec84.pdf and although it didn't mention jumper settings on the old full-height Tandon drives, I got the general idea and found the resistor pack and the jumper 'pack' on both drives and swapped them out. Worked like a champ. ...and Fred, thanks for the quick reply. Yes, the disk creation machine is an old Win98/DOS machine, and it seems to recognize the Kaypro drives. I'll know more later when I try to make some boot floppies. -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Mar 18 19:14:48 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:14:48 +1300 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive > ID? Any ideas? In my Kaypro II, the Tandon M-100 drives use an IC-type jumper for drive select, not the cable. Remember to swap the terminating resistor too. Terry (Tez) From technobug at comcast.net Mon Mar 18 19:26:52 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 17:26:52 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D14DBF5-F4BE-411B-A65B-C64F7128B59C@comcast.net> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:36:51 -0600, Richard wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. > [?] I believe what you are looking for is a PH-163 connector. AFAIK the last (current) manufacturer was/is Volex part number 17280 . ->CRC From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Mar 18 20:09:20 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:09:20 -0600 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> On 3/18/13 6:14 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive >> ID? Any ideas? > > In my Kaypro II, the Tandon M-100 drives use an IC-type jumper for > drive select, not the cable. Remember to swap the terminating > resistor too. > > Terry (Tez) > > Yep, found that out. Thanks Terry. I checked your site and found the link back to Dave Dunfield's for the floppy images. I tried mrynet.com, but their FTP seems to be down at the moment. I'll probably try to image a couple of disks later tonight. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 18 21:30:44 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:30:44 -0500 Subject: Bendix G-15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5147CDD4.70708@pico-systems.com> Message: 10 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:32:26 -0500 From: "Craig Solomonson" To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Resurrecting a Bendix G-15 Message-ID: <8e4be175ad314f9ab0f5ebe075accc8a.squirrel at www.solomonson.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 I was going through some boxes of old documents as I prepare to thin out my computer collection and ran across a couple leads that I had 30+ years ago on a couple early vacuum tube era computers--one was a Bendix G-15 and the other was a Royal Precision LGP-30. Thought it would be fun to see if either computer was still there and turns out that the Bendix G-15 is buried in a storage unit yet! I haven't heard back on the LGP-30 yet. When the weather warms up, I will get a chance to help dig out the Bendix and hopefully make a deal on it. Apparently, the Bendix was operational before going into storage in the mid-1970's. So, what are the chances that after sitting for almost 40 years that it would still be operational? I know that vaccum tubes can deteriorate but those are easy to replace. What about the capacitors, resistors, and diodes? I do not know if the storage unit was climate controlled, but if not, I assume corrosion could be a problem with all the contacts. What other issues might one expect with an old system like this? Unfortunately, I am not an electronics expert but always like a challenge. I now regret selling my Bendix Diode tester a few years ago on eBay! Maybe I will have to rent in some day if I make the deal! Wow, that would be a real antique, and there are VERY few G-15's running. Testing the diode cards would not be that big a problem even without the tester. Major capacitors in the power supply would be best replaced before they exploded. Our G-15 had a scored drum, where dirt packed against the heads and burned a groove through the oxide coating. The other thing that didn't work well was the typewriter. I don't know if it was the typewriter itself or the huge box of relays that encoded/decoded the character codes that was flaky. Jon From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 18 21:55:45 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:55:45 +0100 Subject: XY8E plotter control docs? Message-ID: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> Hi, does anyone have XY8E plotter control schematics at hand? I just plugged one into my currently active pdp8/e and it doesn't work :-( And then I realized that I don't have schematics. At least not on my PC. And the links on pdp8.net seem to be dead to me. If anyone does have the schematics on his/her PC, please drop me a line. But don't invest time to scan it. I'm quite sure that I have an original *somewhere* in piles of paper... Thank you Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Mar 18 22:24:56 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:24:56 +0000 Subject: ebay Vintage Imlac PDS 1 kinda over priced In-Reply-To: <919305080-1363145863-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2111808600-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D7B9E4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/12/13 8:37 PM, "Sam O'nella" wrote: >My condolences to all of ya. I can only imagine the emotion seeing >rescues and personal work getting sold by scrappers. > > > At least he's selling it as a piece, rather than sluicing it down for precious metals. -- Ian From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 22:43:51 2013 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:43:51 -0400 Subject: Shipping Heavy/Large Items Via UPS In-Reply-To: <513F57E7.8080907@pico-systems.com> References: <513F57E7.8080907@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I've shipped large quantities of items through UPS, though not of the terribly excessive, still large boxes that cost a penny or two. Zero damage, but of course double walled, foam and packing penuts and such to an excessive amount, and other such niceities. I bought the shipping material myself, bought shipping labels through UPS online, and had them pick it up, didn't deal with the store at all. (shipping total was 3 boxes with... i think it was 3 next cubes, 2 frog monitors, 2 slabs, 4 next laser printers, keyboard and mouse and cables and such). Bypass the store and such, and it wasn't a bad experience. International shipping i've done USPS but packed similarly, and of course, post office drop off was the same quote as it was online. Still bought the label online to save time, though. On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > Message: 3 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 06:09:10 -0400 >>> From: Bob Vines >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >>> Subject: Re: PDP 11/23 advice >>> Message-ID: <513DAD46.2010300 at verizon.net> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>> >>> >> >> >> UPS will ship fairly large items in their cardboard boxes, but it's >> *expensive*. I recently received some DECmates with their RX02s >> (which were still in their furniture/carts). Each 3x3x3 box weighed >> nearly 150 pounds. >> >> > I've had bad experiences shipping heavy stuff with UPS. I've had great > luck with FedEx, and FedEx ground is quite reasonable. The UPS > store is not operated by by UPS, and their insurance is VERY expensive, > probably 4 times more than FedEx. UPS admits the way they unload their > semis is to push everything out onto the ground. > > Also, the UPS store charges $16 to 25 for each box, at FedEx, they are more > like $5. > > Jon > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 19 04:30:32 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:30:32 -0600 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: <00f301ce241d$daf4a240$90dde6c0$@com> References: <00f301ce241d$daf4a240$90dde6c0$@com> Message-ID: In article <00f301ce241d$daf4a240$90dde6c0$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets > lots of pics of the various types here Yep, looked there before, but they don't have a picture of this type of HP cord. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 19 04:33:04 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:33:04 -0600 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1DAE8042-CF68-4C0A-95A7-7A1C4FAA9049@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> <1DAE8042-CF68-4C0A-95A7-7A1C4FAA9049@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1DAE8042-CF68-4C0A-95A7-7A1C4FAA9049 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > How well do you find the Instapak stuff works? Do you mean the expanding foam that fills all voids around the item? This stuff seems to work well for larger items on the few occasions that a seller could provide it. My main beef with it is that the typical "I'll pack your stuff in a box for you" store doesn't have it. It seems that it's only worthwhile if you're sending out lots of fragile goods. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 19 04:35:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:35:55 -0600 Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5147A016.3020308@gmail.com> References: <9E995216-1DAD-4BDE-AF2C-9E155C16CB01@snowmoose.com> <51463B65.6060008@gmail.com> <51464315.7020401@gmail.com> <5146584E.9050609@gmail.com> <20130317172454.T63654@shell.lmi.net> <51466344.5080707@gmail.com> <20130318022117.GA12329@dbit.dbit.com> <5146813A.1040000@sydex.com> <5147A016.3020308@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <5147A016.3020308 at gmail.com>, mc68010 writes: > [...] Experts on > the gear being shipped will pack it better anyway. Not true. On at least two occasions, I have gotten stuff from "experts" that had insufficient packing and was damaged. For instance a bunch of Sun lunchbox machines and their associated keyboards. Every single keyboard had damage when it arrived, because it was all packed in too densely with a bunch of heavy items with no padding around it. I can't recall the specifics of the other item, but it too was from an "expert" and arrived damaged. In each case the person skimped on the padding/protection in an attempt to save me a few measly dollars. I can't repeat this often enough: It's not saving me money to have goods arrived damaged. Or, as your Mom probably used to say: Better safe than sorry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 19 04:38:53 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 03:38:53 -0600 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: <00f301ce241d$daf4a240$90dde6c0$@com> Message-ID: Thanks to all who responded, I think I've tracked down a reasonably priced source for some cords. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Mar 19 05:43:15 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:43:15 +1300 Subject: My Apple Lisas on Youtube Message-ID: Two grand old ladies from my classic computer collection. The Apple Lisa 2 and Lisa 2/10 http://youtu.be/mm0hqVVjY48 Tez From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 06:20:58 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 07:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> A guy in Florida sent me a Xerox 820-II in a box that didn't allow any >> space around the system. The keyboard was just sitting on top of the CPU >> and the box flaps closed over it. The result was not pretty. I spent >> about two days straightening out metal parts and super-glued the case >> (which was broken into a half-dozen pieces) back together. Doesn't look >> all that bad and works fine. > > I have neve had much luck with isocyano acryllic hydro-copolymerising > adhesives for this sort of thing. If you can find a solvent for the > plastic (dichlormethane works on some common plastics) [1] then you cna > often make a much stronger repair. I guess our experience varies, then. The superglued repair looks almost perfect and has held up fine for about five years. I've also repaired a Mac Plus that was similarly smashed with results that are almost perfect - and hard to spot. Steve -- From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 05:54:03 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 06:54:03 -0400 Subject: XY8E plotter control docs? In-Reply-To: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> Message-ID: Try: http://web.archive.org/web/20130214230633/http://www.pdp8.net/ On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:55 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone have XY8E plotter control schematics at hand? > I just plugged one into my currently active pdp8/e and it doesn't work :-( > And then I realized that I don't have schematics. At least not on my PC. > And the links on pdp8.net seem to be dead to me. > > If anyone does have the schematics on his/her PC, please drop me a line. > But don't invest time to scan it. I'm quite sure that I have an original > *somewhere* in piles of paper... > > Thank you > > Philipp > > > -- > > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover > Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 > Fax. 0511/3500439 > hachti at hachti.de > www.tiegeldruck.de > > UStdID DE 202668329 > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 19 08:33:48 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 06:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 2013, Dave Land wrote: > On 3/18/13 6:14 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >>> jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive >>> ID? Any ideas? >> >> In my Kaypro II, the Tandon M-100 drives use an IC-type jumper for >> drive select, not the cable. Remember to swap the terminating >> resistor too. >> >> Terry (Tez) >> >> > > Yep, found that out. Thanks Terry. I checked your site and found the link > back to Dave Dunfield's for the floppy images. I tried mrynet.com, but their > FTP seems to be down at the moment. I'll probably try to image a couple of > disks later tonight. :) Dave, don't forget to check out the Kaypro section of the Don Maslin archive over at http://www.retroarchive.org - there are a LOT of disk images. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Mar 19 10:30:48 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:30:48 -0600 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> On 3/19/13 7:33 AM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013, Dave Land wrote: > >> On 3/18/13 6:14 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >>>> jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive >>>> ID? Any ideas? >>> >>> In my Kaypro II, the Tandon M-100 drives use an IC-type jumper for >>> drive select, not the cable. Remember to swap the terminating >>> resistor too. >>> >>> Terry (Tez) >>> >>> >> >> Yep, found that out. Thanks Terry. I checked your site and found the >> link back to Dave Dunfield's for the floppy images. I tried >> mrynet.com, but their FTP seems to be down at the moment. I'll >> probably try to image a couple of disks later tonight. :) > > Dave, don't forget to check out the Kaypro section of the Don Maslin > archive over at http://www.retroarchive.org - there are a LOT of disk > images. > > g. > Thanks Gene, I think it's kind of a moot point though. While I was working on getting the remaining working floppy drive setup for an image write, one of the caps on the power supply board went POW! and everything went dark. Guess it just wasn't meant to be. Anybody need any Kaypro II parts? (less the power supply and the bad floppy drive of course...) I'm done messing with it. At least I have one working CP/M machine, my Xerox 820-II. That's enough to keep me occupied, along with all my other old toys. :) Maybe I'll do something constructive and turn it into a 'retro-modern' computer with a small flat screen in place of the CRT and grab a micro-ATX board and stick in it. It's not like there's not enough room in that big aluminum case to do most anything. :D -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 19 10:36:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 11:36:02 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <514885E2.5030505@neurotica.com> On 03/19/2013 11:30 AM, Dave Land wrote: > Thanks Gene, I think it's kind of a moot point though. While I was > working on getting the remaining working floppy drive setup for an image > write, one of the caps on the power supply board went POW! and > everything went dark. Guess it just wasn't meant to be. > > Anybody need any Kaypro II parts? (less the power supply and the bad > floppy drive of course...) I'm done messing with it. Parts?? It sounds like a machine that's ten minutes away from being functional. Please don't kill it. Good heavens. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 19 10:45:00 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, Dave Land wrote: > Maybe I'll do something constructive and turn it into a 'retro-modern' > computer with a small flat screen in place of the CRT and grab a micro-ATX > board and stick in it. It's not like there's not enough room in that big > aluminum case to do most anything. :D It would make a neat chassis for a Raspberry Pi. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:23:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:23:19 +0000 Subject: Is it what the caption says? Message-ID: http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ak85m Pic alone: http://i.imgur.com/JkSx01y.jpg?1 Caption: My professor showed us 1 byte of data from one of the first ever computers. Amazing to see how far we've come! Discussion: http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1ak85m/my_professor_showed_us_1_byte_of_data_from_one_of/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:27:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:27:41 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2013, at 11:30, Dave Land wrote: > > Thanks Gene, I think it's kind of a moot point though. While I was working on getting the remaining working floppy drive setup for an image write, one of the caps on the power supply board went POW! and everything went dark. Guess it just wasn't meant to be. > > Anybody need any Kaypro II parts? (less the power supply and the bad floppy drive of course...) I'm done messing with it. No no no, caps are cheap and easy to obtain! Go to Digi-Key or Mouser and find one of the same dimensions with an equal or higher working voltage and capacitance. Should take you maybe half an hour of work, and the actual replacement is super-simple. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 19 11:29:01 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130319092605.O1071@shell.lmi.net> > > Maybe I'll do something constructive and turn it into a 'retro-modern' > > computer with a small flat screen in place of the CRT and grab a micro-ATX > > board and stick in it. It's not like there's not enough room in that big > > aluminum case to do most anything. :D On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, geneb wrote: > It would make a neat chassis for a Raspberry Pi. :D Darth Vader's lunchbox would make a neat chassis for HUNDREDS of RPi. Maybe use those to implement a non-custom part version of Deep Crack! But, first you should replace that bad capacitator. If you already know which one it is, then you are 90% of the way to full functionality. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:33:48 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:33:48 -0400 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74A2F6A1-4A5E-491B-BF04-57A02B279E30@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2013, at 12:23, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ak85m > > Pic alone: > http://i.imgur.com/JkSx01y.jpg?1 > > Caption: > My professor showed us 1 byte of data from one of the first ever > computers. Amazing to see how far we've come! Seems reasonable, assuming those are dual triodes. That could easily be an 8-bit operator, though I don't know if it could necessarily be a latch. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 19 11:41:13 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:41:13 -0700 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51489529.6080406@sydex.com> On 03/19/2013 09:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ak85m > > Pic alone: > http://i.imgur.com/JkSx01y.jpg?1 > > Caption: > My professor showed us 1 byte of data from one of the first ever > computers. Amazing to see how far we've come! Looks like 1 digit (4 bits) to me. Probably biquinary (5 bits coding). I see 5 tubes, proabably dual triodes and a couple of electrolytic caps. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 12:01:25 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:01:25 -0500 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514899E5.5000004@gmail.com> On 03/19/2013 11:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ak85m > > Pic alone: > http://i.imgur.com/JkSx01y.jpg?1 > > Caption: > My professor showed us 1 byte of data from one of the first ever > computers. Amazing to see how far we've come! Does it count as data if it's not powered up? :-) Is it even storage? Seems like a lot of passive components. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 19 12:11:12 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:11:12 -0400 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: <514899E5.5000004@gmail.com> References: <514899E5.5000004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51489C30.8070005@neurotica.com> On 03/19/2013 01:01 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ak85m >> >> Pic alone: >> http://i.imgur.com/JkSx01y.jpg?1 >> >> Caption: >> My professor showed us 1 byte of data from one of the first ever >> computers. Amazing to see how far we've come! > > Does it count as data if it's not powered up? :-) > > Is it even storage? Seems like a lot of passive components. Discrete flip-flops do require some passives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Mar 19 12:15:16 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 11:15:16 -0600 Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <20130319092605.O1071@shell.lmi.net> References: <5147A180.7070603@landcomp.net> <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> <5147BAC0.3080002@landcomp.net> <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> <20130319092605.O1071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51489D24.2070400@landcomp.net> On 3/19/13 10:29 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Maybe I'll do something constructive and turn it into a 'retro-modern' >>> computer with a small flat screen in place of the CRT and grab a micro-ATX >>> board and stick in it. It's not like there's not enough room in that big >>> aluminum case to do most anything. :D > On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, geneb wrote: >> It would make a neat chassis for a Raspberry Pi. :D > > Darth Vader's lunchbox would make a neat chassis for HUNDREDS of RPi. > Maybe use those to implement a non-custom part version of Deep Crack! > > But, first you should replace that bad capacitator. > If you already know which one it is, then you are 90% of the way to full > functionality. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Well, I hate to ruin you guy's day, but it's too late. Between the bad floppy drive, the fried cap, and numerous other issues, the Kaypro is now a parts machine. It got disassembled last night as a matter of fact. I did come up with some interesting ideas, including one that 'geneb' had mentioned. How about something like this... meet the K-Pad II. http://www.landcomp.net/files/K-padII.jpg Actually just goofing around and stuck my iPad in the space where the CRT was. Seriously though, I'm considering one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pyle10-4-In-Wall-Mount-TFT-LCD-Flat-Panel-Monitor-PAL-NTSC-Auto-PLVW10IW-/380465760534?pt=US_Car_Monitors_w_o_Player&hash=item589586c916 and setting it up with either a micro-ATX board or something similar, while keeping the case and keyboard as close to original looking as possible. It will get retro-fitted with an updated 101 key insert to be compatible with the USB keyboard input. The drive bay can house the hard drive, DVD-ROM, and whatever. -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 12:22:28 2013 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II+ Lego Message-ID: <1363713748.83480.YahooMailNeo@web124906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> This is rather nice...? http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiukeung/8565233993/in/photostream I also liked the Mac Lego http://www.flickr.com/photos/72974131 at N00/8412086698 and the Sinclair ZX-81 Lego http://www.flickr.com/photos/hairydalek/sets/72157629011228815/? From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 19 13:08:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:08:48 +0100 Subject: FS: various (old) 68-pin and 50-pin SCSI disks Message-ID: <5148A9B0.6090302@xs4all.nl> Anyone interested? Pretty much everything from 1 Gbyte to 9.1 Gbytes that can go, from various vendors (Seagate, Compaq, Quantum, Micropolis, IBM, etc.). The disks have recently been tested. Furthermore, the disks are located in the Netherlands and I will happily ship to wherever desired and covered for. - MG From bob at jfcl.com Tue Mar 19 15:06:53 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:06:53 -0700 Subject: BB-M448B-BC DECNET11/M+ V2.0 DECKIT? Message-ID: <013e01ce24dd$4d68f6e0$e83ae4a0$@com> Bitsavers has the file BB-M448B-BC_DECNET11M+_V2_NETKIT_1984.tap which is (sadly!) exactly half of the DECnet-11M v2.0 for RSX. Missing is the corresponding DECKIT tape. I know it's a long shot, but would anybody out there have it?? Yes, bitsavers does have the NETKIT/DECKIT pair for V3.0 and V4.2, but I need the older version. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 15:13:58 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:13:58 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) In-Reply-To: <51461F55.9@gmail.com> References: <51461F55.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually never mind -- I found the capacitor's sister (and it was 16uF, 25V) and replaced it. Power supply is happy again (though it still smells like fried capacitor). Unfortunately (previously unknown to me) this system has a very large battery in it and you can guess what comes next: it's mounted to the underside of the motherboard and did a very significant amount of damage to it and some of the system chassis. I can't foresee it being worth the extreme effort it'd take to repair. So, two questions: 1) Anyone have a spare Portable II motherboard? 2) Alternately: Anyone need any Portable II parts? Everything else seems to be working (hard drive needs a bit of coaxing to get spinning). - Josh On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Powered up an old Compaq Portable II and was greeted with a cloud of > smoke; a tantalum cap's gone to capacitor heaven (it's next to silicon > heaven). Unfortunately it's now so far gone I can't read its value -- > anyone have a schematic or know what the capacitor at C19 is supposed to > be? > > Thanks, > Josh > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Mar 19 15:36:14 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:36:14 +0100 Subject: Homebrew mark-sense card reader or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130319213614.9fa93a7bdddacd9bcfdbc745@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:00:33 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > The punch is goign to be a lot harder. Yes. Therefore a completely different approach: Laser Cutter. You can get a cheap CO2 Laser Cutter from china for around 1k$ / 1kEUR. With this you can cut the hols into the card - including the card itself. With an appropriate roler mechanism you can cut and "punch" punched tape. Neat side effect: You can do all sort of other geeky stuff with a Laser cutter like cutting and engraving PMMA... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 19 15:44:23 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:44:23 -0700 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: <74A2F6A1-4A5E-491B-BF04-57A02B279E30@gmail.com> References: <74A2F6A1-4A5E-491B-BF04-57A02B279E30@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5148CE27.9060307@sydex.com> On 03/19/2013 09:33 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 19, 2013, at 12:23, Liam Proven wrote: > Seems reasonable, assuming those are dual triodes. That > could easily be an 8-bit operator, though I don't know > if it could necessarily be a latch. How does one get 8 bits from 4 dual triodes (assuming the most likely configuration)? The diodes are very likely steering logic (part of most bistable multivibrators). --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 19 15:48:09 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:48:09 -0700 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: <51489C30.8070005@neurotica.com> References: <514899E5.5000004@gmail.com> <51489C30.8070005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1C2EA865-3642-45E4-9B11-A6A704CFC5F1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Mar 19, at 10:11 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/19/2013 01:01 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ak85m >>> >>> Pic alone: >>> http://i.imgur.com/JkSx01y.jpg?1 >>> >>> Caption: >>> My professor showed us 1 byte of data from one of the first ever >>> computers. Amazing to see how far we've come! >> >> Does it count as data if it's not powered up? :-) >> >> Is it even storage? Seems like a lot of passive components. > > Discrete flip-flops do require some passives. Yes, but Jules is right, there are a LOT of passives, esp. all those diodes. The photo is so blurry it's difficult to be sure about much, but it does look like 4 duo-triodes; on the side that can be seen half of each duo-triode appears to have 82-ohm cathode resistors, 4 grids each fed with two diodes and a 220K resistor through a 330-ohm parasitic-osc. suppression resistor. It's not what I would call typical flip-flop configuration, although it could conceivably still be 4 FFs with perhaps additional trigger/ SR gating. With all those diodes and from what can be seen though, it looks more like diode gates with tube buffers, i.e. multi-input logic gates. I kind of suspect a wired-gate config also, with two plates sharing a load resistor, as there appear to be only four plate load resistors in total (8.2K 2W) (although there are other configs that could negate that suggestion), and the plate connections that can be seen look like they might jumper across to the other plate. Hard to say given what can be seen. It's 4 bits max though if it were storage. (I've been told) there were other fast-storage techniques besides FFs used with tubes, but I don't see the support components for such alternatives here. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Mar 19 15:53:15 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:53:15 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) In-Reply-To: References: <51461F55.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <013501ce24e3$c75f22c0$561d6840$@com> You might try removing the battery and motherboard, and cleaning it with denatured alcohol or MEK. Won't hurt the motherboard, but it does remove the corrosion. If the corrosion is severe, check the solder joints for damage. If all else fails, I have a selection of Compaq luggables. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) Actually never mind -- I found the capacitor's sister (and it was 16uF, 25V) and replaced it. Power supply is happy again (though it still smells like fried capacitor). Unfortunately (previously unknown to me) this system has a very large battery in it and you can guess what comes next: it's mounted to the underside of the motherboard and did a very significant amount of damage to it and some of the system chassis. I can't foresee it being worth the extreme effort it'd take to repair. So, two questions: 1) Anyone have a spare Portable II motherboard? 2) Alternately: Anyone need any Portable II parts? Everything else seems to be working (hard drive needs a bit of coaxing to get spinning). - Josh On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Powered up an old Compaq Portable II and was greeted with a cloud of > smoke; a tantalum cap's gone to capacitor heaven (it's next to silicon > heaven). Unfortunately it's now so far gone I can't read its value -- > anyone have a schematic or know what the capacitor at C19 is supposed > to be? > > Thanks, > Josh > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6188 - Release Date: 03/19/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6188 - Release Date: 03/19/13 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 19 15:54:28 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:54:28 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Message-ID: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. http://www.mdisc.com/ Anyone have experience with these? --Chuck (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 15:59:16 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:59:16 -0400 Subject: Is it what the caption says? In-Reply-To: <5148CE27.9060307@sydex.com> References: <74A2F6A1-4A5E-491B-BF04-57A02B279E30@gmail.com> <5148CE27.9060307@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2013, at 4:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/19/2013 09:33 AM, David Riley wrote: >> On Mar 19, 2013, at 12:23, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Seems reasonable, assuming those are dual triodes. That >> could easily be an 8-bit operator, though I don't know >> if it could necessarily be a latch. > > How does one get 8 bits from 4 dual triodes (assuming the most likely configuration)? The diodes are very likely steering logic (part of most bistable multivibrators). When I said "operator", I guess I meant a simple gate, like an inverter. You'd need the second triode for the feedback for a bistable, which is why I said I didn't know if it could be a latch (it's rather hard to latch without the other half). - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 19 16:05:07 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:05:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <514884A8.5060402@landcomp.net> from "Dave Land" at Mar 19, 13 09:30:48 am Message-ID: > Thanks Gene, I think it's kind of a moot point though. While I was > working on getting the remaining working floppy drive setup for an image > write, one of the caps on the power supply board went POW! and > everything went dark. Guess it just wasn't meant to be. Hang on a second. You have a machine that is almost certainly repairable. You mgith not want or be able to repair it, but I can assure you that there are plenty of people who can. And yet you want to part it out? Why > Anybody need any Kaypro II parts? (less the power supply and the bad > floppy drive of course...) I'm done messing with it. Amd why not the PSU and floppy drive? Cotnrary to popular opinion, those can actualyl ebn repaired too. When I get a non-working device, I would much rather have al lthe defective parts included. It's a lot easier to repair some PCB or other than to track down a spare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 19 15:40:25 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:40:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <20130318163756.R86301@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 18, 13 04:45:16 pm Message-ID: > > jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive > > ID? Any ideas? > > YES, there is. > > What make and model drive are you using? > Near where the cable attaches, there are jumpers for drive select. > > Depending on the brand of drive, it might be break-out DIP, DIP switches, > solder pads, or plug-in jumpers. If it's not immediately obvious and you don't haev the documentation for that particular dirve, you can normally find the drive sleect jumpers by tracing the connections from th drieve sleect pins on the edge connector. You will typically find that each od the drive sleect pins goes to one side o a jumper/switch the other sides of these jumpers are linked together and go into the drive circuitry. One of the jumpers will be closed, the others open. Just change which one is closed to the one connected to the drive select line you want to use. > > IBM PC used the SECOND position of those, (and the Tandon TM100 drive had > break-out DIP) and then played games with twisting parts of the cable. Thos DIP shunt blocks are not that easy to find. There are at least 2 workarounds, though. One is to fit a DIL header plug into the socket and solder wires across it for the jumpers you want conncted. The other, which involves n osolderign at all, is that there are now some quite small DIP swithces, about the size of a normal DIL IC. Fit one of those in the socekt and you cna easily make/break the jumper connections. > Others used a plain cable and set the drive select. Onme advantage of the 'IBM twist' is that the motor-on line for each drive ended up on a differnet pin at the controlelr end. Thus the dirve motors could be controlled independantly of each other. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 19 15:44:14 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:44:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Mar 19, 13 01:14:48 pm Message-ID: > > > jumper setting on these old full bay 5 1/4 floppies to select the drive > > ID? Any ideas? > > In my Kaypro II, the Tandon M-100 drives use an IC-type jumper for > drive select, not the cable. Remember to swap the terminating > resistor too. WHile I agree that electrically the terminator should be in the last deive on the cable (furthest for mthe controller), has anybody ever had a problem with it being in the 'wrong' drive on a fairly short ribbon cable (as here)? That is, you ahve one termination resistor pack in the drive enarest to the cotnrolelr and a 6" or so 'stub' linking to the second drive. As I said, electrically it's the wrong thing to do, but I've (accidentlaly) done it a few times and the machine has had no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 19 15:52:41 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:52:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Selling a DEC RX02 on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Mar 19, 13 03:33:04 am Message-ID: > > > In article <1DAE8042-CF68-4C0A-95A7-7A1C4FAA9049 at gmail.com>, > David Riley writes: > > > How well do you find the Instapak stuff works? > > Do you mean the expanding foam that fills all voids around the item? > This stuff seems to work well for larger items on the few occasions > that a seller could provide it. I've had a few thigns shipped in that expanding foam and IMHO it's excllent. Devices with quite deliacte parts 9glass display tubes [1], etc) have arrived with no problems after bieng shipped across the Pond. [1] My expeirenice suggests that vacuum fluorescent display tubes are a lot more fragile that CRTs or valves. I ahve no idea whay they are such thin glass. > My main beef with it is that the typical "I'll pack your stuff in a > box for you" store doesn't have it. There;s local shop here that claims to send anything (legal) anywhere and from the pictures in the window it appears they do provide this exanding foam. Iv'e not tried them, however (I receive a lot more than I send). -tony From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 16:14:26 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:14:26 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Message-ID: <322822096-1363727665-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2125472209-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> You will but you won't have the sata connector. I guess its immune to that bacteria or fungus and/or scratching of the label? I've had lots of cds I've burned go bad in their padded cd holder. (Holes/flakes in the label) making it a seemingly poor decision unless I burned 2 or more of each archive. ------Original Message------ From: Chuck Guzis Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Sent: Mar 19, 2013 3:54 PM The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. http://www.mdisc.com/ Anyone have experience with these? --Chuck (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 16:29:18 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 14:29:18 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) In-Reply-To: <013501ce24e3$c75f22c0$561d6840$@com> References: <51461F55.9@gmail.com> <013501ce24e3$c75f22c0$561d6840$@com> Message-ID: Yeah, I spent an hour or so cleaning things up with a toothbrush and some vinegar, soap and gentle abrasives. It's looking like about half the ISA slots will need work (quite a number of pins on the underside have effectively been dissolved away) and a number of traces have pretty bad damage. Not saying it's impossible to fix, just that I doubt I'll ever find the will to do it :). - Josh On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > You might try removing the battery and motherboard, and cleaning it with > denatured alcohol or MEK. Won't hurt the motherboard, but it does remove > the corrosion. If the corrosion is severe, check the solder joints for > damage. > > If all else fails, I have a selection of Compaq luggables. > > Cindy Croxton > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:14 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) > > Actually never mind -- I found the capacitor's sister (and it was 16uF, > 25V) and replaced it. Power supply is happy again (though it still smells > like fried capacitor). > > Unfortunately (previously unknown to me) this system has a very large > battery in it and you can guess what comes next: it's mounted to the > underside of the motherboard and did a very significant amount of damage to > it and some of the system chassis. I can't foresee it being worth the > extreme effort it'd take to repair. > > So, two questions: > > 1) Anyone have a spare Portable II motherboard? > 2) Alternately: Anyone need any Portable II parts? Everything else seems > to > be working (hard drive needs a bit of coaxing to get spinning). > > - Josh > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Powered up an old Compaq Portable II and was greeted with a cloud of > > smoke; a tantalum cap's gone to capacitor heaven (it's next to silicon > > heaven). Unfortunately it's now so far gone I can't read its value -- > > anyone have a schematic or know what the capacitor at C19 is supposed > > to be? > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6188 - Release Date: 03/19/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6188 - Release Date: 03/19/13 > > From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Tue Mar 19 16:40:12 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:40:12 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> On 19/03/13 20:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) > I don't own any. Just by looking at it, it quickly seems like a scam. They mention no actual technology used and they seem to go for the Apple style marketing (pretty pictures and different buzzwords recycled all over). Wikipedia has a brief article on it at [1] but again, no specifics. While it might last longer than a DVD, the way it's marketed and lack of actual technical articles makes me very sceptical to the legitimacy of their claims. Anyone can make a claim that their product will last 1000 years (which also happens to be forever!) without providing a technical proof. As long as it lasts for the few years the company is around for, no one can make a counter-claim. If it's as versatile as a DVD (not very) while fulfilling the claims its making, it would probably be a lot more popular to begin with, not to mention that we probably won't be messing around with DVDs in a few years anyway. Except for classiccmp of 2030 where everyone will be looking for that rare DVD they need ;) [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenniata -- Mateusz K. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 19 16:43:00 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable II Power Supply schematic (or capacitor ID) In-Reply-To: <013501ce24e3$c75f22c0$561d6840$@com> from "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" at Mar 19, 13 03:53:15 pm Message-ID: > > You might try removing the battery and motherboard, and cleaning it with > denatured alcohol or MEK. Won't hurt the motherboard, but it does remove > the corrosion. If the corrosion is severe, check the solder joints for > damage. THe battery electrolyte is most likely alkaline (potassium hydroxide?) and a chemically weak acid is quite useful or shifiting it. I use a solution of citric acid, it smells nicer than vinegar :-) Of course if the corrosion has damaged tracks on the PCB, you've got a lot of work ahead of you... -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 19 16:52:08 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 17:52:08 -0400 Subject: 1000 year DVD storage References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:54 PM Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) Never heard of it until now. Looks like they got rid of the dye layer and just burn pits into the medium (wonder what power laser they use). No price for the burner (probably super pricey). $25 for a 4.5gb disk isn't too bad, but its not something you can archive large amounts of video with. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 19 16:52:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 14:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130319143351.H4102@shell.lmi.net> > > IBM PC used the SECOND position of those, (and the Tandon TM100 drive had > > break-out DIP) and then played games with twisting parts of the cable. On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > Thos DIP shunt blocks are not that easy to find. There are at least 2 > workarounds, though. One is to fit a DIL header plug into the socket and > solder wires across it for the jumpers you want conncted. The other, > which involves n osolderign at all, is that there are now some quite > small DIP swithces, about the size of a normal DIL IC. Fit one of those > in the socekt and you cna easily make/break the jumper connections. I used a STAPLE (straight out of the red Swingline) on my first one. I only intended it as a temporary emergency measure to play with the machine. It's over 30 years now; maybe I should replace the staple with a proper shunt. > Onme advantage of the 'IBM twist' is that the motor-on line for each > drive ended up on a differnet pin at the controlelr end. Thus the dirve > motors could be controlled independantly of each other. Yes, there were good reasons for it, besides the inability of IBM store personnel to be able to set a switch and terminator. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 19 17:05:15 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:05:15 -0600 Subject: Thomson T-VT 6000 terminal in Ireland (ebay) Message-ID: Looks worth saving if anyone is nearby. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 19 17:18:53 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130319151805.T4102@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > http://www.mdisc.com/ > Anyone have experience with these? Nobody has ever had one last that long. From go at aerodesic.com Tue Mar 19 17:19:08 2013 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:19:08 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5148E45C.3020701@aerodesic.com> I have a friend who is using these to archive (for a customer) a number of papers and documents that will be stored for a long time. I personally have one of the LG drives, though have not used the M-Disc media yet. The drive is as solid a performer as any DVD burner I've ever used and cost about the same as a 'good' burner. I can't speak to the permanency question, but my friend was satisfied after his own personal 'abuse' testing. -Gary On 03/19/2013 01:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) > -- -Gary From go at aerodesic.com Tue Mar 19 17:22:03 2013 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:22:03 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <5148E50B.7030001@aerodesic.com> On 03/19/2013 02:40 PM, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: > On 19/03/13 20:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. >> >> http://www.mdisc.com/ >> >> Anyone have experience with these? >> >> --Chuck >> >> (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) >> > I don't own any. Just by looking at it, it quickly seems like a scam. > They mention no actual technology used and they seem to go for the Apple > style marketing (pretty pictures and different buzzwords recycled all > over). Wikipedia has a brief article on it at [1] but again, no specifics. Check out article: http://www.informationweek.com/byte/personal-tech/storage-memory/mdisc-review-a-thousand-years-of-storage/231500076 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 19 17:23:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130319152021.N4102@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > WHile I agree that electrically the terminator should be in the last > deive on the cable (furthest for mthe controller), has anybody ever had a > problem with it being in the 'wrong' drive on a fairly short ribbon cable > (as here)? That is, you ahve one termination resistor pack in the drive > enarest to the cotnrolelr and a 6" or so 'stub' linking to the second drive. > As I said, electrically it's the wrong thing to do, but I've > (accidentlaly) done it a few times and the machine has had no problems. Could incorrect termination account for inability to format "360K" diskettes as "720K"? :-) It would s'posedly decrease reliability, but ON 5.25" DRIVES, it doesn't seem to affect it enough to keep it from working. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 17:48:13 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 17:48:13 -0500 Subject: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: 25$ for a 10 pack not per disk On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:52 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:54 PM > Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage > > > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. >> >> http://www.mdisc.com/ >> >> Anyone have experience with these? >> >> --Chuck >> >> (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) >> > > Never heard of it until now. Looks like they got rid of the dye layer and > just burn pits into the medium (wonder what power laser they use). No price > for the burner (probably super pricey). $25 for a 4.5gb disk isn't too bad, > but its not something you can archive large amounts of video with. > From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Mar 19 17:48:51 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:48:51 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com>,<5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: If you read through their pages they often state that while the materials "can" stand up to higher temperatures and UV, they state you shouldn't store it that way because it won't last. None of the actual "test" results seem to be any different from regular dvds. they talk about "standards" in testing materials for longevity, yet there seems to be no mention of whether they meet those standards or not, nor of test results. another clue is that practically no one supports the media, only LG. Engagets tests are not encouraging... > [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenniata > > -- > Mateusz K. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 19 17:50:57 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:50:57 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <5148EBD1.7040409@jwsss.com> On 3/19/2013 2:40 PM, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: > On 19/03/13 20:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. >> >> http://www.mdisc.com/ >> >> Anyone have experience with these? >> >> --Chuck >> >> (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) >> > I don't own any. Just by looking at it, it quickly seems like a scam. > They mention no actual technology used and they seem to go for the Apple > style marketing (pretty pictures and different buzzwords recycled all > over). Wikipedia has a brief article on it at [1] but again, no specifics. > > While it might last longer than a DVD, the way it's marketed and lack of > actual technical articles makes me very sceptical to the legitimacy of > their claims. Anyone can make a claim that their product will last 1000 > years (which also happens to be forever!) without providing a technical > proof. As long as it lasts for the few years the company is around for, > no one can make a counter-claim. > > If it's as versatile as a DVD (not very) while fulfilling the claims its > making, it would probably be a lot more popular to begin with, not to > mention that we probably won't be messing around with DVDs in a few > years anyway. > > Except for classiccmp of 2030 where everyone will be looking for that > rare DVD they need ;) > > [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenniata > I think the 1000 year claim is based on their technology + spoofing or meeting and exceeding someones test criteria as to how fast something should "age". Rather than test for 1000 years and report back, most tests in the Mil spec area (not for 1000 year media as here, but age related) make up and publish tests and results that materials that are being certified must meet. Such as how long diodes, caps, etc. are good for even if not put into a circuit board. Not only must they work, but a lot of components that people marvel that the military scrapped timed out in their inventory numbers. I suspect upon reading the patents and finding what spec "(Section 2.2, p.6-8)" is extracted from (This is from the useless marketing document which mentions China Lake) will actually help understand what they did to get to their 1000 year number. Also it is a pain that you have to use a modified drive. I guess they do something extra (maybe explained in the patents) with the recording. One buzzword I suspect will be at the center besides the data error tests they did, is the term "oxidation" I'm guessing a real understand of that will tell what their real claim to fame is. Patent search. *US 77725672 * Millenniata Inc (August 2012 ) *US 77822823 - M-WRITER * Millenniata Inc (February 2011 ) *US 77822836 - M WRITER * Millenniata Inc (February 2011 ) *US 77837406 - +M * Millenniata Inc *US 77776226 * Millenniata Inc *US 77725675 - EON * Millenniata Inc *US 77725677 - M ARC * Millenniata Inc *US 77725678 - M ARC * Millenniata Inc *US 77721407 - EON DISC * Millenniata Inc *US 77628280 - LIFETIME DISC * Millenniata Inc From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 19 18:02:41 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:02:41 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148DB3C.8060607@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <5148EE91.9020703@jwsss.com> On 3/19/2013 2:40 PM, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > > >http://www.mdisc.com/ Looks like the link I grabbed got a bunch of Trademarks. there are three patent applications pending They are hard to point at since they don't have numbers, but they are: 20100110859 ARCHIVAL OPTICAL DISC ARRAYS PCT Patent 2011/026054 Reliability testing of optical media using simultaneous heat, humidity, and light There is one other that doesn't go to the right location which has the same verbiage as the disc array one. Jim From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 18:13:26 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:13:26 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 19 March 2013 20:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) >From the ad: > It?s easy. It?s proven. And it?s the new standard in digital storage. It's proven, is it? They can actually demonstrate the claim that their disc will last 1KY? Either they have a time machine or the arch?ological discovery of all time, then. But seriously folks... They /might/ be on to something, inasmuch as the simplest route I could see is to test multiple optical disks that are failing from age, work out what makes them fail and replace those elements with ones that do not suffer from the same failure modes. However, this might, of course, merely expose other, different failure modes... :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 19 18:14:18 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:14:18 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5148F14A.4090009@jwsss.com> On 3/19/2013 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player Another tidbit from reading the test procedure patent, and taking note of the fact that they did a test @ China Lake, it is likely from reading the apparatus in the patent and looking at what they did there, that they had a contract to do the testing for the Navy. It would be interesting to read that contract, because such things usually specify that the patents are also property of the Navy as well. If anyone can do searchs on such contracts that might turn up something else. The patent about testing, if you find it has a lot of information on the tests and what they did to margin the media. I guess you have to decide if the margins actually simulated 1000 years of exposure or not. Jim From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Tue Mar 19 18:16:53 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:16:53 +0000 Subject: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5148F1E5.6000508@fuuzetsu.co.uk> On 19/03/13 21:52, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:54 PM > Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage > > >> The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. >> >> http://www.mdisc.com/ >> >> Anyone have experience with these? >> >> --Chuck >> >> (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) > > Never heard of it until now. Looks like they got rid of the dye layer and > just burn pits into the medium (wonder what power laser they use). No price > for the burner (probably super pricey). $25 for a 4.5gb disk isn't too bad, > but its not something you can archive large amounts of video with. > It's $29.99 for a 10-pack of those. LG is selling some burners starting at $25 apparently. It's an acceptable price I guess. -- Mateusz K. From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Tue Mar 19 18:20:47 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:20:47 +0000 Subject: Thomson T-VT 6000 terminal in Ireland (ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5148F2CF.8000003@fuuzetsu.co.uk> On 19/03/13 22:05, Richard wrote: > Looks worth saving if anyone is nearby. > > > I'll keep an eye out and might bid on the last day if there are no takers but if anyone wants it then let me know and I won't inflate the price. I wouldn't want to see it scrapped but I can barely afford paying postage for that at the moment? -- Mateusz K. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 19 18:27:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 16:27:25 -0700 Subject: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <2F9566C848F14E85B8A9DA4FE097BDBF@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5148F45D.6080801@sydex.com> On 03/19/2013 02:52 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Never heard of it until now. Looks like they got rid of the dye layer > and just burn pits into the medium (wonder what power laser they use). > No price for the burner (probably super pricey). $25 for a 4.5gb disk > isn't too bad, but its not something you can archive large amounts of > video with. That's $30 for a 10-pack, or $3 one plain old DVD. The writer (LG GH24NS90) seems to be between #20-30 retail. The Navy did some tests: http://www.mdisc.com/docs/chinalakemillenniatatestreport_mod_04feb2010_a.pdf and the M-disc appears to be the only one that passed after aging at 85C and various illumination and humidity. I dunno--the price-point is right for archival storage. --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Tue Mar 19 19:20:15 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:20:15 -0400 Subject: XY8E plotter control docs? In-Reply-To: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20130320002015.GA30987@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 03:55:45AM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone have XY8E plotter control schematics at hand? Yes > And the links on pdp8.net seem to be dead to me. > What link so I can fit it? You can email me direct about any site problems. I tried a couple links and they seem fine. It appears I haven't scanned the plotter control yet though can add it soon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 20:03:58 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:03:58 -0400 Subject: Anyone have any interest in an NCD ThinStar 300 "terminal"? Message-ID: Hi, All, A friend of mine who repairs and recertifies equipment occasionally runs across interesting hardware. He has an NCD ThinStar 300 WinCE thin client box that he was planning on scrapping (for the PSU, the metal, the PCB, the CPU, etc) but I thought I'd ask if anyone has enough interest to offer something for it to cover shipping and the time to pack and ship it. I'm told it works. Internally, it's some flavor of Pentium with a passive heat sink, a couple of PC-100 SDRAM DIMMs, a Crystal Sound audio chip, and some flavor of Ethernet. I found a manual on the NCD site with little effort. Anyone interested? Make an offer and I'll pass it along. It doesn't have to be an outrageous offer, just enough to make it worth the time to not strip it for the PSU and a small amount of electronic recycling value. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 20:09:29 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:09:29 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <17FAC272-3AAA-49F7-A29C-0D0101894D68@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > From the ad: >> It?s easy. It?s proven. And it?s the new standard in digital storage. > > It's proven, is it? They can actually demonstrate the claim that their > disc will last 1KY? They can demonstrate given empirical evidence. Certainly, when we determine the MTBF of electronic devices, it all comes down to statistics. If you test a million capacitors over a period of a year and five of them fail, statistically a given capacitor will fail every 200,000 years. You can apply various factors to accelerate the effects of aging that have well-studied time coefficients; heat is a particularly useful one in electronics (and, I would assume, media as well). MTBF analysis is a really interesting field full of exciting reading! I'd urge people to look into what's done to determine things like 100-year archival paper testing on paper that's only been around a few years before they start saying it's impossible. Of course, as Jim S mentioned, it's totally possible to use absolutely useless metrics or do the math wrong to come up with outlandish MTBF numbers. For example, our client somehow came up with MTBF numbers for their board of over 900 years, which is almost certainly inaccurate given the quality of the board. > However, this might, of course, merely expose other, different failure > modes... :?) There's always that. - Dave From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 19 20:43:37 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 02:43:37 +0100 Subject: XY8E plotter control docs? In-Reply-To: <20130320002015.GA30987@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> <20130320002015.GA30987@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <51491449.5060006@hachti.de> Am 20.03.2013 01:20, schrieb David Gesswein: > What link so I can fit it? You can email me direct about any site problems. > I tried a couple links and they seem fine. I might have had a DNS problem. If I see any problems, I'll drop you a line. > It appears I haven't scanned > the plotter control yet though can add it soon. Oh, that would be fine! Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 19 21:07:12 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <17FAC272-3AAA-49F7-A29C-0D0101894D68@gmail.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <17FAC272-3AAA-49F7-A29C-0D0101894D68@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130319185757.L4102@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: > They can demonstrate given empirical evidence. Certainly, when > we determine the MTBF of electronic devices, it all comes down to > statistics. If you test a million capacitors over a period of a > year and five of them fail, statistically a given capacitor will > fail every 200,000 years. IFF you postulate and accept that the failure rate is linear. (I have no idea whether it IS) Consider: of a million cartons of milk, 5 go bad in a week, therefore, those cartons of milk are good for eight hundred years If 4 out of a million of these discs fail in a week, then they are good for 1000 years? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 19 21:26:07 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:26:07 -0600 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130319185757.L4102@shell.lmi.net> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <17FAC272-3AAA-49F7-A29C-0D0101894D68@gmail.com> <20130319185757.L4102@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51491E3F.9090607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/19/2013 8:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: >> They can demonstrate given empirical evidence. Certainly, when >> we determine the MTBF of electronic devices, it all comes down to >> statistics. If you test a million capacitors over a period of a >> year and five of them fail, statistically a given capacitor will >> fail every 200,000 years. > > IFF you postulate and accept that the failure rate is linear. > (I have no idea whether it IS) > > Consider: of a million cartons of milk, 5 go bad in a week, therefore, > those cartons of milk are good for eight hundred years > > If 4 out of a million of these discs fail in a week, then they are good > for 1000 years? Landfill > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 22:11:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:11:43 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130319185757.L4102@shell.lmi.net> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <17FAC272-3AAA-49F7-A29C-0D0101894D68@gmail.com> <20130319185757.L4102@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <89845B7F-224C-4302-89DB-E806CE4F740A@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2013, at 10:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: >> They can demonstrate given empirical evidence. Certainly, when >> we determine the MTBF of electronic devices, it all comes down to >> statistics. If you test a million capacitors over a period of a >> year and five of them fail, statistically a given capacitor will >> fail every 200,000 years. > > IFF you postulate and accept that the failure rate is linear. > (I have no idea whether it IS) That's why you have to make sure your metrics make sense. In MTBF analysis, there's a "bathtub" curve with the "infant mortality" at the beginning and the eventual inevitable demise of all devices at the end. Burn-in testing of products is supposed to eliminate the former from the reliability equation, so in theory you're left with mostly the flat part of the curve as well as the tail end. > Consider: of a million cartons of milk, 5 go bad in a week, therefore, > those cartons of milk are good for eight hundred years Cartons of milk have a relatively short time before you hit the tail end. 5 go bad in a week, maybe, but that's not doing nearly enough testing to discover the point of 100% failure. If you go another week out, you'd get better data; a month out, even better. If you accelerate it with heat (up to a certain point, obviously), you can do more testing in less time if you have studied the mechanics of how the heat changes the failure rate (it's obviously not necessarily linear, but within a certain range it follows a known correlation). > If 4 out of a million of these discs fail in a week, then they are good > for 1000 years? If you've established that a week is long enough to test it under appropriate environmental conditions, yes. In most cases, it's not, and there's a LOT of research that tells you what conditions you need to test under and for how long. And again, you can blithely ignore that research, say you've "tested it", and people will buy it on that. I haven't the slightest clue what the case is here, but if I were thinking about using these things for archival media, I'd certainly be trying to establish their bona fides. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 19 22:30:01 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:30:01 -0600 Subject: Anyone have any interest in an NCD ThinStar 300 "terminal"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I found a manual on the NCD site with little effort. An interesting feat considering that ncd.com is long dead :) Presumably you went to thinpathsystems.com? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 22:36:59 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:36:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone have any interest in an NCD ThinStar 300 "terminal"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> I found a manual on the NCD site with little effort. > > An interesting feat considering that ncd.com is long dead :) > > Presumably you went to thinpathsystems.com? Apparently I did, but the URL - www.ncd-x.com/doc/TerminalUsersGuide.pdf - made me think it was the original company. I see from the website root that it's Thinpath Systems. -ethan From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Mar 20 00:55:19 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 22:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) forget it there is no way you'll be able to play anything digital in a 1,000 years because of Digital obsolescence[1] and add copyrights the best example is the BBC Domesday Project[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_obsolescence [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project tom From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 20 01:30:08 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:30:08 -0500 Subject: IC programmer with rs232? Message-ID: <51495770.50407@jbrain.com> Anyone know a good rs232-based programmer? I have a willem (great unit, use it all the time, hate the switches), and a Gq-4X USB unit (nice unit, no switches, A14 is a bit weak and won't program my ROM-3l 23128 devices). But, I was considering setting up a small set of scripts on a UNIX/linux box here that could program items via a menu, and thought a serial (or usb serial) would be easiest to script. I could grab an older unit (though I didn't turn up promising links in half hour os searches tonight), but I'd prefer it support at49F series FLASH. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 01:38:38 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:38:38 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache 8:16 DOS board debugging tip Message-ID: <5149596E.10100@gmail.com> Thought I'd share this, just so it at least gets archived for posterity... Idug out my Otrona Attaches this week and decided to try and fix the16-bit (aka "almost PC-compatible") board in one of them. The symptom was that the board would run correctly for maybe 90 seconds before it would crash. The built in diagnostics (for ROM rev. H) can test the RAM on the 16-bit board (using the "[" command from the monitor), and doing so revealed that the RAM test would pass for a little while and then start failing, indicating "U66" as the fault.According to the service manual this indicates the actual faulty chip on the board. Not so! Replacing U66 had no effect. I then got out my Fluke 9010 w/8086 pod (I'm just dying for excuses to play with this thing...) and had ittest the RAM (the 16-bit board contains 256K). RAM from word 0x20000 to 0x3FFFF was fine, but the lower half of RAM started showing bit 0x4000 stuck after warm up -- looking at the Otrona schematic (http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf) this would point to chip U61 (which services bit 14 for the lower half of memory), not U66(which is bit 14 for the upper half). So: Moral of the story is the Attache's attempt at being helpful is simply misleading, alas.Hopefully this helps someone else someday :). - Josh From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 20 02:02:31 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:02:31 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D7C7A3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/19/13 10:55 PM, "Tom Sparks" wrote: >----- Original Message ----- > >> The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. >> >> http://www.mdisc.com/ >> >> Anyone have experience with these? >> >> --Chuck >> >> (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) > >forget it there is no way you'll be able to play anything digital in a >1,000 years >because of Digital obsolescence[1] and add copyrights >the best example is the BBC Domesday Project[2] > > > >[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_obsolescence >[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project > >tom > > > > I can still read books written a thousand years ago. Now THAT'S durable information technology! Media is only a fraction of the problem. There are perfectly good tapes out there that have taken extraordinary effort to read (consider the Lunar Orbiter image data) not because there's anything wrong with them, but because we forgot about them and had to recreate systems. Storage is a system that must be intelligible to... something. I have some lovely multi-disk CDROM readers that don't work, because the laser diodes were fragile. The media is still fine, but the readers failed. Do these lifetime tests include evaluations of the hardware that reads the media? Truth be told, I can still read those CDROMs because other readers recognize the standards - most of the time. I have drives that recognize the 512B sector physical format, but they're becoming harder to find. I have machines that interface with the SCSI standards of those 512-byte-sector readers, but those are beyond-EOL, too. While I agree there are challenges, citing Wikipedia isn't exactly scholarship. :-) There is a large community that is engaged in these questions. The solutions won't be easy, but frankly the issues of copyright are among the thorniest, and have nothing to do with the technology of persistence. Bits we can manage, if we approach the challenges correctly. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 20 02:04:46 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:04:46 +0000 Subject: Otrona Attache 8:16 DOS board debugging tip In-Reply-To: <5149596E.10100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D7C7C1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/19/13 11:38 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: >Thought I'd share this, just so it at least gets archived for posterity... > >Idug out my Otrona Attaches this week and decided to try and fix >the16-bit (aka "almost PC-compatible") board in one of them. The >symptom was that the board would run correctly for maybe 90 seconds >before it would crash. > >The built in diagnostics (for ROM rev. H) can test the RAM on the 16-bit >board (using the "[" command from the monitor), and doing so revealed >that the RAM test would pass for a little while and then start failing, >indicating "U66" as the fault.According to the service manual this >indicates the actual faulty chip on the board. Not so! Replacing U66 >had no effect. > >I then got out my Fluke 9010 w/8086 pod (I'm just dying for excuses to >play with this thing...) and had ittest the RAM (the 16-bit board >contains 256K). RAM from word 0x20000 to 0x3FFFF was fine, but the lower >half of RAM started showing bit 0x4000 stuck after warm up -- looking at >the Otrona schematic (http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf) >this would point to chip U61 (which services bit 14 for the lower half >of memory), not U66(which is bit 14 for the upper half). > >So: Moral of the story is the Attache's attempt at being helpful is >simply misleading, alas.Hopefully this helps someone else someday :). > >- Josh > > And the other moral is: logic analyzers rule. From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 11:03:53 2013 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning Requirements was Re: Old manuals -- Need archiving? In-Reply-To: References: <9A11CA74AADD42E7861E575E25A929F9@Vincew7> Message-ID: <1363709033.72812.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Richard (and Al) -? If one had the capability and interest in submitting scanned images is there any particular format, meta-data or other criteria that would be helpful? ? Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Richard To: cctalk Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:46 PM Subject: Re: Old manuals -- Need archiving? In article , ? ? Kurt Nowak writes: > Al Kossow who runs bitsavers.org seems to be your best bet. He is a > saint for doing this, from my experiences, he is extremely busy with a > huge backlog of donated manuals to scan/archive. I also have lots of > unneeded manuals and I am honestly little reluctant sending him > anything as Im afraid they would just sit and never get scanned. I > wish there were more folks out there with fancy document scanners to > do the grunt work of scanning documents for Al. I am sure I am not > alone here. A whole army of scanners is probably whats needed! I help out Al by offloading scanning for him when I can.? I do lots of scanning for bitsavers.? I am happy to have other cctalk members send me documents for scanning.? For instance I recently scanned a bunch of Stardent documentation: I have access to a nice 600dpi optical sheet feed scanner at work that makes quick work of most things.? Stuff that is in 3-ring binders or loose sheets works best.? Stuff that is spiral bound is the next easiest to scan and stuff that is glue or sewn bound is the most amount of work. I tend to scan stuff that is of interest to me personally, so that means that terminals and graphics items tend to go to the head of the queue for me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book ? ? The Computer Graphics Museum ? ? ? ? The Terminals Wiki ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From go at ao-cs.com Tue Mar 19 16:30:21 2013 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 14:30:21 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> I have a friend who is using these to archive (for a customer) a number of papers and documents that will be stored for a long time. I personally have one of the LG drives, though have not used the M-Disc media yet. The drive is as solid a performer as any DVD burner I've ever used and cost about the same as a 'good' burner. I can't speak to the permanency question, but my friend was satisfied after his own personal 'abuse' testing. -Gary On 03/19/2013 01:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) > -- -Gary From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 10:53:50 2013 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 11:53:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone have any interest in an NCD ThinStar 300 "terminal"? Message-ID: Ethan Dicks writes: > >Apparently I did, but the URL - www.ncd-x.com/doc/TerminalUsersGuide.pdf - >made me think it was the original company. Nice they put the manuals up, but sure would be nifty if they put the last software for the traditional X terminals (e.g. HMX) up. As far as I know (and I haven't burned many cycles checking) that all died long before NCD did. Probably shouldn't have tossed my (pre-HMX) NCD with X in (many) PROMs, but it was mono X11R2/3-ish and not much past xterm/Xaw worked that well, post year 2000. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 18 21:12:50 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:12:50 -0700 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: <514784B8.9070802@jwsss.com> References: <514784B8.9070802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5147C9A2.10306@sydex.com> On 03/18/2013 02:18 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > perhaps like the one in this auction for a Wurlitzer? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121072536510 Korg and Celestron stuff took these, so searches such as "Korg power cord" may turn up other sellers than the one I linked to. I have an old Four-Phase monitor that takes this cord as well. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 20 11:24:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:24:07 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> On 03/19/2013 02:30 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: > I can't speak to the permanency question, but my friend was satisfied > after his own personal 'abuse' testing. Perhaps not close to 1000 years, but certainly across a lifetime spam--I would think that these would be handy for preserving family photos, particularly of important events such as weddings. I was thinking, for some reason, of Stan Ovshinsky and his phase-change storage in chalcogenide glasses. Is media using this more permanent than the usual dye-based DVD-ROM or CD-ROM material? Anyone know? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 20 11:32:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/19/2013 02:30 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: > >> I can't speak to the permanency question, but my friend was satisfied >> after his own personal 'abuse' testing. > > Perhaps not close to 1000 years, but certainly across a lifetime spam--I > would think that these would be handy for preserving family photos, > particularly of important events such as weddings. > > I was thinking, for some reason, of Stan Ovshinsky and his phase-change > storage in chalcogenide glasses. Is media using this more permanent than the > usual dye-based DVD-ROM or CD-ROM material? Anyone know? > What about SDHC cards for long term storage? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 20 11:41:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:41:15 -0400 Subject: IC programmer with rs232? In-Reply-To: <51495770.50407@jbrain.com> References: <51495770.50407@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5149E6AB.2000000@neurotica.com> On 03/20/2013 02:30 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone know a good rs232-based programmer? > > I have a willem (great unit, use it all the time, hate the switches), and a Gq-4X USB > unit (nice unit, no switches, A14 is a bit weak and won't program my ROM-3l 23128 devices). > > But, I was considering setting up a small set of scripts on a UNIX/linux box here that > could program items via a menu, and thought a serial (or usb serial) would be easiest to > script. > > I could grab an older unit (though I didn't turn up promising links in half hour os > searches tonight), but I'd prefer it support at49F series FLASH. I wholeheartedly recommend the Data I/O UniSite. It's an awesome unit, and mine, even with the older firmware release I'm running, supports AT49F-series flash. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 12:01:58 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:01:58 +0100 Subject: Thomson T-VT 6000 terminal in Ireland (ebay) In-Reply-To: <5148F2CF.8000003@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148F2CF.8000003@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: > On 19/03/13 22:05, Richard wrote: >> Looks worth saving if anyone is nearby. >> >> >> > I'll keep an eye out and might bid on the last day if there are no > takers but if anyone wants it then let me know and I won't inflate the > price. I wouldn't want to see it scrapped but I can barely afford paying > postage for that at the moment? > > -- > Mateusz K. Hi Mateusz, I've put a bid on it; if I win it, I'll see if I can figure it out and share any info I can find with the list. Camiel. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 20 14:30:32 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps not close to 1000 years, but certainly across a lifetime spam--I In 1000 years, well past our lifetime, will there BE anything besides "spam" > would think that these would be handy for preserving family photos, > particularly of important events such as weddings. Other than archeologists, in 1000 years, who is going to WANT our data? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 20 14:41:57 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:41:57 +0100 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130320204157.3d82b6393d98681c68c976e4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:32:39 -0700 (PDT) geneb wrote: > What about SDHC cards for long term storage? (Consumer grade) SD cards are cheap and unreliable junk. Current SD cards are MLC flash and MLC is down to a few years of data retention time. The newest SD cards are TLC flash and there we get _less_ than a year data retention time. Industrial grade SD cards exist and they are OK, as they are SLC flash. But expect to pay 10 x times more per GB storage capacity. The rule of digital archiving applies: Preserve the data, not the medium. I.e. migrate the data to a new medium on a regular base and have multiple copies of the data on different media in different locations. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 20 15:01:20 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:01:20 +0100 Subject: IC programmer with rs232? In-Reply-To: <51495770.50407@jbrain.com> References: <51495770.50407@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20130320210120.a47798d2ffdbe70315dcfb51@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:30:08 -0500 Jim Brain wrote: > I was considering setting up a small set of scripts on a UNIX/linux > box here that could program items via a menu, and thought a serial (or > usb serial) would be easiest to script. [...] > but I'd prefer it support at49F series FLASH. http://www.flashrom.org supports: Atmel AT49BV512 PREW 64 Parallel Atmel AT49F020 PRE 256 Parallel Atmel AT49F002(N) 256 Parallel Atmel AT49F002(N)T PR 256 Parallel Atmel AT49LH002 256 LPC, FWH and runs on DOS, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFly BSD, Solaris, Mac OS X, and other Unix-like OSes. It can use some of the FTDI FT2232/FT4232H based USB programmers. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 20 15:09:35 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130320204157.3d82b6393d98681c68c976e4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320204157.3d82b6393d98681c68c976e4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:32:39 -0700 (PDT) > geneb wrote: > >> What about SDHC cards for long term storage? > (Consumer grade) SD cards are cheap and unreliable junk. Current SD > cards are MLC flash and MLC is down to a few years of data retention > time. The newest SD cards are TLC flash and there we get _less_ than a > year data retention time. > Um... I've got both SD cards and thumb drives that exceed your statement by *YEARS*. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 20 14:50:12 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:50:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <20130319143351.H4102@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 19, 13 02:52:04 pm Message-ID: [Punch-through DIP shunts] > I used a STAPLE (straight out of the red Swingline) on my first one. I think i did somethling like that years ago. I have also soldered a jumper wire across an opend bar on one of these shits to close it again. I know the TRS-80 TechRef tells you not to, but it's held for oeer 10 years now so I am to too worried about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 20 14:56:52 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:56:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro II floppy identification? In-Reply-To: <20130319152021.N4102@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 19, 13 03:23:08 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 19 Mar 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > WHile I agree that electrically the terminator should be in the last > > deive on the cable (furthest for mthe controller), has anybody ever had a > > problem with it being in the 'wrong' drive on a fairly short ribbon cable > > (as here)? That is, you ahve one termination resistor pack in the drive > > enarest to the cotnrolelr and a 6" or so 'stub' linking to the second drive. > > As I said, electrically it's the wrong thing to do, but I've > > (accidentlaly) done it a few times and the machine has had no problems. > > Could incorrect termination account for inability to format "360K" > diskettes as "720K"? :-) No. Assuming you're talking about the normal PC formats of those capacities, the only differece is the number of cylinders. The have the same rotational rate, the same data rate and encoding, etc. Now, incorrect termination may cause ringing or reflections on the cable. About the only place it is likely to matter is on the data lines (RD and WD), and thosecarry the same frequencies for PC 360K and PC720K format. About the onyl way it coudl matter is if the 360K and 720K drives are different makes and one is more susceptivle to signal line ringing than the othter. Incidentally, later PC drives had fixed 1k pull-up resistors on all inputs, no termination at all. Although it sounds like it should be a problem, I have 2 such drives on an _external_ cable on a 5160 with no trouble at all. No termiantio no nteh end of the cable. I suppsoe a marginal set-up might work at DD (360K, 720L) rates but not at HD (1.2M, 1.44M) rates. I think you'd really habve to tweak the cable lengths to get a problem though. For the pedants : Yes, I know that 1.44M makes no sense at all as a number of megabytes of storage,. I am using it just as a name here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 20 15:05:19 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:05:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Otrona Attache 8:16 DOS board debugging tip In-Reply-To: <5149596E.10100@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Mar 19, 13 11:38:38 pm Message-ID: > So: Moral of the story is the Attache's attempt at being helpful is > simply misleading, alas.Hopefully this helps someone else someday :). Having had more than my fair share of misleading diagnostics over the years, I have learnt never to use them other than to say that _soemthing_ is wrong. I go in with the logic analyser, etc, and generally have the problem traced in a few minutes... -tony From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 20 15:19:19 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:19:19 -0700 Subject: Free: Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc Desktop In-Reply-To: <51473330.8000501@gmail.com> References: <514623E1.3050301@gmail.com> <51473330.8000501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514A19C7.4070707@jwsss.com> On 3/18/2013 8:30 AM, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: >> > This has been claimed. Thanks for the offers, everyone! > > -Kurt I claimed it and can help if anyone has an urgent need. thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 20 15:24:31 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:24:31 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> On 03/20/2013 12:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Other than archeologists, in 1000 years, who is going to WANT our data? The same people who are now interested in Babylonian letters of credit, Egyptian hieroglyphics, the Dead Sea Scrolls and other such worthless garbage. A larger concern for me is there being anyone around to look at the stuff. One really good meteorite strike or plague and it's all history for some other creatures. --Chuck From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Wed Mar 20 15:54:54 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:54:54 +0000 Subject: Thomson T-VT 6000 terminal in Ireland (ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5148F2CF.8000003@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <514A221E.4040604@fuuzetsu.co.uk> On 20/03/13 17:01, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Mateusz Kowalczyk > wrote: >> On 19/03/13 22:05, Richard wrote: >>> Looks worth saving if anyone is nearby. >>> >>> >>> >> I'll keep an eye out and might bid on the last day if there are no >> takers but if anyone wants it then let me know and I won't inflate the >> price. I wouldn't want to see it scrapped but I can barely afford paying >> postage for that at the moment? >> >> -- >> Mateusz K. > > Hi Mateusz, > > I've put a bid on it; if I win it, I'll see if I can figure it out and > share any info I can find with the list. > > Camiel. > Brilliant, I won't interfere then. I asked about lower postage but the dealer said it's the cheapest he could find. I found the dealer's thread online at [1] about that very box he's selling that might give some clues as to what the box is. Good luck with the auction. [1] - http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?32467-Anyone-know-what-this-is -- Mateusz K. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 16:17:01 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:17:01 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55E5D275-0BB8-40F9-A66E-3C09ED9E1D88@gmail.com> On Mar 20, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/20/2013 12:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Other than archeologists, in 1000 years, who is going to WANT our data? > > The same people who are now interested in Babylonian letters of credit, Egyptian hieroglyphics, the Dead Sea Scrolls and other such worthless garbage. I was gonna say, who are we saving the data for if not archaeologists? Digital data is a lot more difficult to preserve than clay tablets or even parchment; still, unlike magnetic media, the data at least exists in the visible spectrum (if not to the naked eye). I don't think there's a high likelihood of archaeologists finding any of our flash drives still readable after 1000 years (the charge on the floating gates will likely have dissipated by then, especially for low-charge cells like MLC), let alone figure out how to read them. On the other hand, all my pictures from France in college that I took on film have a pretty good chance of boring people far in the future. Optical media (at least on media that doesn't decay, like some CD-R dyes) should be likewise preserved, though we've certainly seen some unexpected failings in shellac records as well due to binder breakdown. - Dave From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 20 16:28:38 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:28:38 +0100 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320204157.3d82b6393d98681c68c976e4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130320222838.90150b440bde2ae2a7cd3bf7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:09:35 -0700 (PDT) geneb wrote: > Um... I've got both SD cards and thumb drives that exceed your statement > by *YEARS*. Thats the point. You talk about old devices. Those are based on SLC flash. SLC (NOR) flash is OK. E.g. Atmel guarantees a data retention time of 100 years for the flash in AVR microcontrollers. Currently as new available SD cards are MLC and increasingly TLC (NAND) flash. MLC is problematic and TLC even more. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Wed Mar 20 16:46:16 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:46:16 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <55E5D275-0BB8-40F9-A66E-3C09ED9E1D88@gmail.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> <55E5D275-0BB8-40F9-A66E-3C09ED9E1D88@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514A2E28.4030805@fuuzetsu.co.uk> On 20/03/13 21:17, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 20, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 03/20/2013 12:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> Other than archeologists, in 1000 years, who is going to WANT our data? >> >> The same people who are now interested in Babylonian letters of credit, Egyptian hieroglyphics, the Dead Sea Scrolls and other such worthless garbage. > > I was gonna say, who are we saving the data for if not > archaeologists? Digital data is a lot more difficult to > preserve than clay tablets or even parchment; still, unlike > magnetic media, the data at least exists in the visible > spectrum (if not to the naked eye). I don't think there's > a high likelihood of archaeologists finding any of our > flash drives still readable after 1000 years (the charge on > the floating gates will likely have dissipated by then, > especially for low-charge cells like MLC), let alone figure > out how to read them. On the other hand, all my pictures > from France in college that I took on film have a pretty > good chance of boring people far in the future. Optical > media (at least on media that doesn't decay, like some > CD-R dyes) should be likewise preserved, though we've > certainly seen some unexpected failings in shellac records > as well due to binder breakdown. > > > - Dave > > I don't believe that people 1000 years from now will put the same value towards items from today as we put towards items from 1000 years ago. While preservation of data is important, nowadays we have pretty much world-wide information coverage (thanks to the Internet and superior transport). Anything important will be propagated into the future and unless people of the year 3000 will think they can get anything out of the C++11 standard to educate them about anything, I think they're wrong*. The reason why we need such a thing as an archaeologist today is because people in the past had no means of sharing such information and it was very easy for it to die out if only a small village somewhere knew about it. Unless some global-scale catastrophe happens that cuts us off from the information stream for a very long amount of time happens, I don't see the need for 1000 year storage. It's very useful for archives to have as they _are_ the places that propagate data into the future but it's basically useless as a commercial product. *It's all just my opinions and I have no expertise in the area past thinking about it for 30 seconds. Feel free to point out anything I haven't considered. -- Mateusz K. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 16:50:15 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:50:15 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130320222838.90150b440bde2ae2a7cd3bf7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320204157.3d82b6393d98681c68c976e4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130320222838.90150b440bde2ae2a7cd3bf7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5FA0701E-453D-4EF7-846E-A979F16171E5@gmail.com> On Mar 20, 2013, at 5:28 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:09:35 -0700 (PDT) > geneb wrote: > >> Um... I've got both SD cards and thumb drives that exceed your statement >> by *YEARS*. > Thats the point. You talk about old devices. Those are based on SLC > flash. SLC (NOR) flash is OK. E.g. Atmel guarantees a data retention > time of 100 years for the flash in AVR microcontrollers. Currently as > new available SD cards are MLC and increasingly TLC (NAND) flash. MLC is > problematic and TLC even more. SLC isn't necessarily NOR; there are plenty of NAND devices that use SLC. Likewise, there are NOR devices that use MLC (not as common). You can still buy SLC flash drives, but they're mostly consigned to the "industrial" space (where people are apparently more aware of problems caused by data corruption). They are correspondingly more expensive. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 20 17:37:28 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514A2E28.4030805@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> <55E5D275-0BB8-40F9-A66E-3C09ED9E1D88@gmail.com> <514A2E28.4030805@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <20130320151236.K24983@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: > I don't believe that people 1000 years from now will put the same value > towards items from today as we put towards items from 1000 years ago. There will be at least one specialist of "the Dell Age" And, our times will be considered important in studying the causes of the Great Collapse(s). See "MS Fnd In A Lbry" (by Hal Draper) http://home.comcast.net/~bcleere/texts/draper.html M42A8E39 written 50 yukals ago. I heard that there will be attempts to capture an asteroid to mine for Irridium, etc. Last time that that was tried, the collateral damage was severe, and led to a planet-wide mammal infestation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 20 17:56:04 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 16:56:04 -0600 Subject: Anyone have any interest in an NCD ThinStar 300 "terminal"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > In article , > > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > >> I found a manual on the NCD site with little effort. > > > > An interesting feat considering that ncd.com is long dead :) > > > > Presumably you went to thinpathsystems.com? > > Apparently I did, but the URL - www.ncd-x.com/doc/TerminalUsersGuide.pdf - > made me think it was the original company. Ah.... Well, the original NCD used to have ncd.com and that's now owned by someone completely unrelated. ThinPATH Systems is a company consisting of ex-NCD employees. I didn't know that they have scarfed up ncd-x.com, interesting! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 20 18:21:32 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:21:32 -0600 Subject: Anyone have any interest in an NCD ThinStar 300 "terminal"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ken Seefried writes: > Nice they put the manuals up, but sure would be nifty if they put the last > software for the traditional X terminals (e.g. HMX) up. As far as I know > (and I haven't burned many cycles checking) that all died long before NCD > did. Agreed, and it's a problem for more brands than NCD. I've collected what I can find here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 20 19:06:31 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514A2E28.4030805@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> <55E5D275-0BB8-40F9-A66E-3C09ED9E1D88@gmail.com> <514A2E28.4030805@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <201303210006.UAA19405@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I don't believe that people 1000 years from now will put the same > value towards items from today as we put towards items from 1000 > years ago. The same? No. We have only the vaguest idea how year 3000 will view year 2000 - look at how large the changes from 1000 to 2000 have been, and the second derivative shows no hint of going negative anytime in the foreseeable future. > While preservation of data is important, nowadays we have pretty much > world-wide information coverage (thanks to the Internet and superior > transport). Of all the lists I would not expect to see such a position advanced on, this is one of the first. Just ask anyone who's trying to find _anything_ about old hardware. Sometimes the company doesn't even exist any longer and it's pretty close to impossible to figure out who their successor-in-interest is and/or who currently has possession of the data, if indeed it still exists. Sometimes it does but doesn't even know it ever made the hardware in question and certainly doesn't know anything about it. Sometimes they just won't say anything, even if you offer to go NDA. And in the remaining two cases... :-) > Anything important will be propagated into the future For what value of "important"? We have just about zero idea what year 3000 humans - if they exist - will consider important, possibly excepting their own survival. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 20 19:58:58 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:58:58 -0700 Subject: Univac 3 video on youube Message-ID: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> I mentioned having a Univac 3 available for sale and have some interest. When I watched a video linked to by a person on the IBM-MAIN mailing list some time ago, there was a few Univac links, so I looked to see what was there for Univac 3 this turned up which is supposed to be the US Army system http://youtu.be/ICGPML5lzoY There are tape drives in the short bit of video which are not Uni-servo's and are probably not connected to the Univac near the end, but you can see the system's drives in one bit of the video. NOte that it had no disk storage it was all tape with the OS at the BOT of every volume, or bits of the application. Anyone recognize the logo on the tape drives (probably not Univac) at the 23 sec point? it is a big red circle with two side bars. Rings a bell to me but I haven't figured it out yet. There was also a CHM show about timesharing with Univac that came up, but I don't think the tape drives are the same Uniservo's that the U3 used, so is probably later. Also the theme is timesharing which of course the U3 was definitely not ever going to do. thanks Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 20:11:17 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:11:17 -0400 Subject: Univac 3 video on youube In-Reply-To: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Anyone recognize the logo on the tape drives (probably not Univac) at the 23 > sec point? it is a big red circle with two side bars. Rings a bell to me > but I haven't figured it out yet. It is just a little too blurry, but the shape suggests Collins, but the proportions of the bars is just a bit off. The red circle also suggests the RCA meatball. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 20 20:21:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:21:13 -0400 Subject: Univac 3 video on youube In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <514A6089.7090707@neurotica.com> On 03/20/2013 09:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Anyone recognize the logo on the tape drives (probably not Univac) at the 23 >> sec point? it is a big red circle with two side bars. Rings a bell to me >> but I haven't figured it out yet. > > It is just a little too blurry, but the shape suggests Collins, but > the proportions of the bars is just a bit off. The red circle also > suggests the RCA meatball. Collins made tape drives?? Wow, I never knew that. That's wild. Were they any good? (their radio hardware is tough to beat, IMO) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Wed Mar 20 20:28:59 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 01:28:59 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303210006.UAA19405@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320122514.A24260@shell.lmi.net> <514A1AFF.5060509@sydex.com> <55E5D275-0BB8-40F9-A66E-3C09ED9E1D88@gmail.com> <514A2E28.4030805@fuuzetsu.co.uk> <201303210006.UAA19405@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514A625B.6050507@fuuzetsu.co.uk> On 21/03/13 00:06, Mouse wrote: > >> While preservation of data is important, nowadays we have pretty much >> world-wide information coverage (thanks to the Internet and superior >> transport). > > Of all the lists I would not expect to see such a position advanced on, > this is one of the first. Just ask anyone who's trying to find > _anything_ about old hardware. Sometimes the company doesn't even > exist any longer and it's pretty close to impossible to figure out who > their successor-in-interest is and/or who currently has possession of > the data, if indeed it still exists. Sometimes it does but doesn't > even know it ever made the hardware in question and certainly doesn't > know anything about it. Sometimes they just won't say anything, even > if you offer to go NDA. And in the remaining two cases... :-) > While this is THE place where you can find people trying to get their hands on new hardware, the motives are because people here are hobbyists. There isn't much we can learn from old hardware that we don't already know. Sure, it's fascinating how they did things back in the day but rediscovering it won't progress humanity to any real degree. >> Anything important will be propagated into the future > > For what value of "important"? We have just about zero idea what year > 3000 humans - if they exist - will consider important, possibly > excepting their own survival. > While I agree that there is simply no way of knowing what will be considered important, I think we can agree that information about technological advancements is likely to be more important than the pictures of your 5 year old son. Of course, through some twist of fate it, those pictures might give some insight on what it used to be like around here, propagating information about natural disasters and whatnot is probably more important. Bah, it might as well be that in just 50 years we advance in storage enough that we won't even have to consider this and everyone will be able to dump everything they want to store to some medium. In any case, this leads me to another point I was trying to make earlier. There is simply no need for storage that holds data for that long. 4.7GB is not a lot in the times we live in and the technology itself will most certainly be replaced be a cheaper alternative. If no one will need it in a 100 years, the chances are that it wasn't very important to use as a race and won't be needed in 200 and 300 and 1000 years. Again, if something happens to humanity where we lose most of the knowledge then any scrap of information will be useful (albeit photos of your dog will probably not be the most sought-after item in that scenario). I'm glad that the product is out there but there should be less push to try and make profit out of it and more push to advancing the technology itself. Marketing it under the aspect of being able to store (relatively) small amount of data for for omg1000yearsdropeverythingbuy50 just seems? bad. -- Mateusz K. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Mar 20 20:39:58 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 01:39:58 +0000 Subject: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E88A4C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! Anyone have a vertical stand for an IBM 7043-43P they'd be willing to sell? Many thanks! -Ben From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 20 21:25:35 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:25:35 -0700 Subject: Univac 3 video on youube - tape drives In-Reply-To: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <514A6F9F.1040604@sbcglobal.net> On 3/20/2013 5:58 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > I mentioned having a Univac 3 available for sale and have some interest. > > When I watched a video linked to by a person on the IBM-MAIN mailing > list some time ago, there was a few Univac links, so I looked to see > what was there for Univac 3 > > this turned up which is supposed to be the US Army system > > http://youtu.be/ICGPML5lzoY > > There are tape drives in the short bit of video which are not > Uni-servo's and are probably not connected to the Univac near the end, > but you can see the system's drives in one bit of the video. NOte that > it had no disk storage it was all tape with the OS at the BOT of every > volume, or bits of the application. > > Anyone recognize the logo on the tape drives (probably not Univac) at > the 23 sec point? it is a big red circle with two side bars. Rings a > bell to me but I haven't figured it out yet. > > There was also a CHM show about timesharing with Univac that came up, > but I don't think the tape drives are the same Uniservo's that the U3 > used, so is probably later. Also the theme is timesharing which of > course the U3 was definitely not ever going to do. > > thanks > Jim > Might be Potter. The head assembly looks similar to one in this photo: http://www.dvq.com/ads/potter_dm_11_61.jpg Bob From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Mar 20 23:24:11 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 21:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363839851.76267.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- >>??Perhaps not close to 1000 years, but certainly across a lifetime spam--I > > In 1000 years, well past our lifetime, will there BE anything besides > "spam" > >>??would think that these would be handy for preserving family photos, >>??particularly of important events such as weddings. > > Other than archeologists, in 1000 years, who is going to WANT our data? there are a few known facts: * every generation well want to relive their childhood * military/corporate project become cheaper and enter the consumer market[1] * new data mining methods are discovered * old information has value but is lost/miss-placed/destroyed before the true value is discovered (wiping) [1] 3D printers, Remote control vehicle, computers, etc tom From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 21 02:25:43 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 08:25:43 +0100 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5FA0701E-453D-4EF7-846E-A979F16171E5@gmail.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> <5148D8ED.5050402@ao-cs.com> <5149E2A7.3060106@sydex.com> <20130320204157.3d82b6393d98681c68c976e4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130320222838.90150b440bde2ae2a7cd3bf7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5FA0701E-453D-4EF7-846E-A979F16171E5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130321082543.c7db23440c36d7df52b26189@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:50:15 -0400 David Riley wrote: > > Thats the point. You talk about old devices. Those are based on SLC > > flash. SLC (NOR) flash is OK. E.g. Atmel guarantees a data retention > > time of 100 years for the flash in AVR microcontrollers. Currently as > > new available SD cards are MLC and increasingly TLC (NAND) flash. MLC is > > problematic and TLC even more. > SLC isn't necessarily NOR; there are plenty of NAND > devices that use SLC. Likewise, there are NOR devices > that use MLC (not as common). I know. Sorry for being not clear in this. I intended to write somthing in the line of "SLC (and especialy old fashoned NOR) flash is OK, where MLC and even more TLC flash is problematic. (MLC and TLC are mostly NAND flash whitch may add to the problem.)" -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 18:27:55 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:27:55 -0400 Subject: The RICM Needs Two DEC BC09A Cables Message-ID: The RICM has their PDP-9 processor and core working nicely now, except for the DAC and DZM instructions. Once we get the processor and paper tape reader/punch restoration completed the next task will be connecting the TC59 tape controller and the TU20 tape drive. Bitsavers has the TC59 manuals. I bought an HP 7975A maintenance manual for the TU20 tape transport that is now scanned and on Bitsavers. We don't have any documentation for the rack of electronics in the bottom of the TU20 that connects the 7975A to the TC59. Does anyone have DEC TU20 documentation? Where could we find two BC09A cables to connect the TC59 to the PDP-9 processor? -- Michael Thompson From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Thu Mar 21 00:31:35 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 05:31:35 +0000 Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement Message-ID: <201303210531.r2L5Vanj011506@mx1.ezwind.net> I just picked up an RK05AA drive, unknown condition but it appears in good shape internally. As I was going through a detailed inspection, I touched the foam that surrounds the air duct that connects to the access door on the cartridge, delivering clean air. The foam flaked off and seems to be deteriorating. Not as badly as the foam used in Selectric typewriters, which has turned to sludge after a few decades, but not something I want releasing particles into an air stream that will flow under the heads. Is this a known issue with the drives? What do people who restore/repair these do to eliminate this source of contamination into the cartridge? I would like to address this before I install a new absolute filter. Any tips for a substitute for the CE pack when I get to the point of loading heads and adjusting the drive? Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Mar 21 04:19:14 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:19:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VMS documentation binders to give away Message-ID: <1363857554.55242.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello everybody, there are eight grey VMS documentation binders to give away which are duplicates in my collection: -Volume 2a and 2b: Introduction to VMS, Guide to Using VMS, Guide to VMS Files and Devices, Mail Utility, Phone Utility, Sort/Merge Utility (VMS version 5.0) - Release Notes: Volume 2: Release Notes (VMs version 5.4) - General User: volume 1: General Information: Master Index, General User Master Index, Glossary (VMS version 5.0) - General User: Volume 3: Using DCL: DCL Concepts, Guide to Using Command Procedures (VMS version 5.0) - General User: volume 4: DCL Dictionary (VMS version 5.0) - General User : volume 5A:Processing Text: Guide to Text Processing, EDT Reference (VMS version 5.0) - General User : volume 5C: Processing Text: DIGITAL standard Runoff, EVE Reference (VMS version 5.0) - Programming: Volume 8: Device Support: Device Support Manual(VMS version 5.0) First come, first serve, I give them away for free whoever is interested in them. You only have to take care of the shipping costs. Documents are located in Germany near the belgian and dutch boarder. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Mar 21 04:19:14 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:19:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VMS documentation binders to give away Message-ID: <1363857554.55242.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello everybody, there are eight grey VMS documentation binders to give away which are duplicates in my collection: -Volume 2a and 2b: Introduction to VMS, Guide to Using VMS, Guide to VMS Files and Devices, Mail Utility, Phone Utility, Sort/Merge Utility (VMS version 5.0) - Release Notes: Volume 2: Release Notes (VMs version 5.4) - General User: volume 1: General Information: Master Index, General User Master Index, Glossary (VMS version 5.0) - General User: Volume 3: Using DCL: DCL Concepts, Guide to Using Command Procedures (VMS version 5.0) - General User: volume 4: DCL Dictionary (VMS version 5.0) - General User : volume 5A:Processing Text: Guide to Text Processing, EDT Reference (VMS version 5.0) - General User : volume 5C: Processing Text: DIGITAL standard Runoff, EVE Reference (VMS version 5.0) - Programming: Volume 8: Device Support: Device Support Manual(VMS version 5.0) First come, first serve, I give them away for free whoever is interested in them. You only have to take care of the shipping costs. Documents are located in Germany near the belgian and dutch boarder. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 21 04:23:43 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:23:43 +0100 Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement In-Reply-To: <201303210531.r2L5Vanj011506@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303210531.r2L5Vanj011506@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <9bfc9671423c4e493c9f5f539c7bc29f.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > I just picked up an RK05AA drive, unknown condition but it appears in good > shape internally. As I was going through a detailed inspection, I touched > the foam that surrounds the air duct that connects to the access door on > the cartridge, delivering clean air. The foam flaked off and seems to be > deteriorating. Not as badly as the foam used in Selectric typewriters, > which has turned to sludge after a few decades, but not something I want > releasing particles into an air stream that will flow under the heads. > > Is this a known issue with the drives? What do people who restore/repair > these do to eliminate this source of contamination into the cartridge? I > would like to address this before I install a new absolute filter. > > Any tips for a substitute for the CE pack when I get to the point of > loading heads and adjusting the drive? > > Carl > > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the > person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is > confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient > or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, > distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please > notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this > message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is > error or virus free. > In those case I do clean the old foam and adhesive and use new foam strips, like the ones you can buy to close drafty windows. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Mar 21 06:37:29 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:37:29 +0100 Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement In-Reply-To: <201303210531.r2L5Vanj011506@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303210531.r2L5Vanj011506@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <514AF0F9.4000600@hachti.de> Some tips... Am 21.03.2013 06:31, schrieb Claunch,Carl: > As I was going through a detailed inspection, I touched the > foam Not good to touch. > Is this a known issue with the drives? YES! The first hello to a RK05 is to remove that foam. > What do people who restore/repair > these do to eliminate this source of contamination into the cartridge? I > would like to address this before I install a new absolute filter. My solution is: - Use a vacuum cleaner and a screwdriver. Gently remove most of the foam. - Use hot air (hairdryer or s.th. alike) to warm up the adhesive strips that are still in place. - Remove the adhesive strips and clean. Use the vacuum cleaner while pulling off the adhesive so nothing will fall down to the filter. Now you could place something new there. I never did. And I never replaced an absolute filter. You can do it, of course. I sometimes even don't remove the adhesive strips. The only important is that you get rid of *ALL* foam residues. If you run the drive with foam particles going into the cartridge, you have a good chance that the drive crashes with awful sounds and you'll have much work cleaning the cartridge and heads. Crashing an RK05 is not that kind of disaster as the manual and some people might tell. But it's better to avoid it. Then: 1. Clean disk and heads using IPA. NO WATER! Loading heads onto a piece of IPA wetted tissue and then pulling it gently from side to side works fine. The heads must be clean. Use wood (e.g. a match) to remove all stains. 1. Spin up the drive, let the heads load. 2. Deacitivate positioner driver with red switch 3. Move the heads manually until there is no sound. If the drive crashes badly, go back to 1. 4. After having the pack being silent, clean the heads again. This is *my* procedure to remove foam, clean packs, and heads. And it works fine for me. If you destroy a 16 sector pack, do NOT throw it away. Use a spare disk from a 12 sector pack or something else to replace the disk. The most valueable part of a 16 sector pack is the center. Applies to other non 12 track cartridges as well. > > Any tips for a substitute for the CE pack when I get to the point of loading > heads and adjusting the drive? I've been told that you could align the heads to data. But you'd need a pack which has been written on a perfectly aligned drive. Alignment should be necessary only when you removed the heads AND you want pack interchangeability between drives. If you have not touched the head screws, you'll most probably don't need to care about alignment. Just run your drive! Keep an eyer on the blower motor which tends to slowly die with fire coming out from time to time (in 220V countries at least). Start to think about positioner lamp replacement - the lamp will burn someday. Keep an eye on the 5V regulator. I did not see RK05 capacitor problems yet. But I have seen breaking 5V regulators. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From doc at vaxen.net Thu Mar 21 10:31:45 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:31:45 -0500 Subject: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E88A4C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E88A4C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <514B27E1.4000003@vaxen.net> On 3/20/13 8:39 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Hi! > Anyone have a vertical stand for an IBM 7043-43P they'd be willing to sell? > > Many thanks! Ben, there were several distinct models of 7043-43P and at least a couple of different stands. Which model is yours? Doc From wmachacek at q.com Thu Mar 21 11:47:42 2013 From: wmachacek at q.com (Bill Machacek) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:47:42 -0600 Subject: Data Converter Reference Manual Message-ID: <008301ce2653$ceec3250$6cc496f0$@q.com> I have the Analog Devices, Inc., "Data Converter Reference Manual", Volumes I & II, 1992 edition. These are big and heavy (3 pounds apiece). I am no longer interested in keeping these manuals around. I will be willing to send these to anyone who is willing to pay for the shipping (via Media Mail). It looks like the cost will be a little over $5, so the first person with $5 who wants these manuals can get them. Thanks and I'll be checking this list to see who, if anyone, is interested. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Mar 21 12:31:03 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:31:03 +0000 Subject: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P In-Reply-To: <514B27E1.4000003@vaxen.net> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E88A4C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <514B27E1.4000003@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E8A74F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> I'm 99.9% sure it's a 240. The unit itself is labeled 3590-A50. The FRU on the stand should be 12H0619, I think. Happen to have some in stock? :) Many many thanks! -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Doc [doc at vaxen.net] Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P On 3/20/13 8:39 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Hi! > Anyone have a vertical stand for an IBM 7043-43P they'd be willing to sell? > > Many thanks! Ben, there were several distinct models of 7043-43P and at least a couple of different stands. Which model is yours? Doc From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 21 13:01:26 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:01:26 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... Message-ID: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic computer been updated from the 10 year rule? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 13:07:36 2013 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:07:36 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I've got this WONDERFUL *****RARE***** **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE ABSOLUTELY HUGE FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST PRICE $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! I died a little inside typing that out. On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... > How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) > > One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic computer > been updated from the 10 year rule? > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." > Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 13:10:52 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:10:52 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic computer > been updated from the 10 year rule? Yes, there is now a high council that ordains system as "Classic" This group meets once a year at Bohemian Grove. Samples of systems deemed classic are interred in a vault located under a mountain in Colorado operated and maintained by the Long Now Foundation. It's located right next to the Retr0brite factory. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 21 13:14:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:14:40 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <514B4E10.8070903@neurotica.com> EMACS EMACS EMACS!! On 03/21/2013 02:07 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I've got this WONDERFUL > *****RARE***** > **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** > ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** > 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) > > **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE ABSOLUTELY HUGE > FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. > > FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST PRICE > $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 > > GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! > > > > I died a little inside typing that out. > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Dave Woyciesjes > wrote: > >> Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... >> How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) >> >> One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic computer >> been updated from the 10 year rule? >> >> -- >> --- Dave Woyciesjes >> --- ICQ# 905818 >> --- AIM - woyciesjes >> --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ >> --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ >> Registered Linux user number 464583 >> >> "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." >> Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" >> >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 21 13:19:24 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:19:24 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <514B4F2C.4030906@sbcglobal.net> On 3/21/2013 2:07 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I've got this WONDERFUL > *****RARE***** > **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** > ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** > 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) > > **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE ABSOLUTELY HUGE > FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. > > FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST PRICE > $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 > > GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! > > > > I died a little inside typing that out. I expected nothing less... :) Funny thing is, I just gave away an old Dell that just about matched that description... > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Dave Woyciesjes > wrote: > >> Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... >> How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) >> >> One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic computer >> been updated from the 10 year rule? >> -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 21 13:43:24 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 11:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I've got this WONDERFUL > *****RARE***** > **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** > ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** > 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) > > **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE ABSOLUTELY HUGE > FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. > > FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST PRICE > $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 > > GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! > > > > I died a little inside typing that out. > If it's any consolation, I died a little bit reading it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 13:51:53 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:51:53 +0100 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi :3 -- Ola Hughson From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 21 14:07:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:07:49 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <514B5A85.6050607@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2013 02:43 PM, geneb wrote: >> I've got this WONDERFUL >> *****RARE***** >> **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** >> ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** >> 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) >> >> **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE ABSOLUTELY >> HUGE >> FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. >> >> FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST PRICE >> $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 >> >> GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! >> >> >> >> I died a little inside typing that out. >> > If it's any consolation, I died a little bit reading it. ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 21 14:09:20 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:09:20 -0000 Subject: VMS documentation binders to give away In-Reply-To: <1363857554.55242.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1363857554.55242.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <045e01ce2667$996df410$cc49dc30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of P Gebhardt > Sent: 21 March 2013 09:19 > To: cctalk; cctech > Subject: VMS documentation binders to give away > > Hello everybody, > > there are eight grey VMS documentation binders to give away which are > duplicates in my collection: > > -Volume 2a and 2b: Introduction to VMS, Guide to Using VMS, Guide to VMS > Files and Devices, Mail Utility, Phone Utility, Sort/Merge Utility (VMS > version 5.0) > > - Release Notes: Volume 2: Release Notes (VMs version 5.4) > > - General User: volume 1: General Information: Master Index, General User > Master Index, Glossary (VMS version 5.0) > > - General User: Volume 3: Using DCL: DCL Concepts, Guide to Using > Command Procedures (VMS version 5.0) > > - General User: volume 4: DCL Dictionary (VMS version 5.0) > - General User : volume 5A:Processing Text: Guide to Text Processing, EDT > Reference (VMS version 5.0) > > - General User : volume 5C: Processing Text: DIGITAL standard Runoff, EVE > Reference (VMS version 5.0) > - Programming: Volume 8: Device Support: Device Support Manual(VMS > version 5.0) > > First come, first serve, I give them away for free whoever is interested in > them. > You only have to take care of the shipping costs. Documents are located in > Germany near the belgian and dutch boarder. > > Kind regards, > Pierre > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic- > computing.dyndns.org/ [Rob Jarratt] I would be more interested in the orange ones, if anyone has those. I have a partial orange wall and I would love a full orange wall. Regards Rob From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Mar 21 14:19:13 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:19:13 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <514B5A85.6050607@neurotica.com> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> <514B5A85.6050607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0bfd01ce2668$f993f280$ecbbd780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/21/2013 02:43 PM, geneb wrote: > >> I've got this WONDERFUL > >> *****RARE***** > >> **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** > >> ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** > >> 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) > >> > >> **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE > ABSOLUTELY > >> HUGE > >> FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. > >> > >> FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST > PRICE > >> $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 > >> > >> GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! > >> > >> > >> > >> I died a little inside typing that out. > >> > > If it's any consolation, I died a little bit reading it. > > ROFL!! Dave McGuire, man of action, laughs in the face of death. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 14:21:52 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:21:52 +0000 Subject: VMS documentation binders to give away Message-ID: <1029135155-1363893711-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-10824447-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Out of curiosity what language are the manuals written in? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 21 14:40:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <514B4F2C.4030906@sbcglobal.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> <514B4F2C.4030906@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130321123648.O41745@shell.lmi.net> > > I've got this WONDERFUL > > *****RARE***** > > **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** > > ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** > > 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) > > **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE ABSOLUTELY HUGE > > FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. > > FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST PRICE > > $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 > > GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! > > I died a little inside typing that out. > I expected nothing less... :) > Funny thing is, I just gave away an old Dell that just about matched > that description... I just spent $300 for three that match that! including two more without hard drives Dell Inspiron 5150 - how's THAT for diluting a once proud model number? There were even a few Dell Inspiron 5100s! John Titor, where are you? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 21 14:41:12 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:41:12 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <0bfd01ce2668$f993f280$ecbbd780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> <514B5A85.6050607@neurotica.com> <0bfd01ce2668$f993f280$ecbbd780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <514B6258.5000806@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2013 03:19 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>>> I've got this WONDERFUL >>>> *****RARE***** >>>> **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** >>>> ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** >>>> 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) >>>> >>>> **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE >> ABSOLUTELY >>>> HUGE >>>> FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. >>>> >>>> FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST >> PRICE >>>> $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 >>>> >>>> GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I died a little inside typing that out. >>>> >>> If it's any consolation, I died a little bit reading it. >> >> ROFL!! > > Dave McGuire, man of action, laughs in the face of death. "Sport death: Only life can kill you." -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Thu Mar 21 14:51:05 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:51:05 -0500 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <20130321123648.O41745@shell.lmi.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> <514B4F2C.4030906@sbcglobal.net> <20130321123648.O41745@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <010501ce266d$6cfcf150$46f6d3f0$@com> We are selling the Dell GX260 with 1GB and 2.6 proc, XP Pro loaded, for $125 retail with monitor! Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: I'm baack... > > I've got this WONDERFUL > > *****RARE***** > > **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** > > ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* > > PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) > > **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE > > ABSOLUTELY HUGE FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. > > FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST > > PRICE > > $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 GOOD > > LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! > > I died a little inside typing that out. > I expected nothing less... :) > Funny thing is, I just gave away an old Dell that just about matched > that description... I just spent $300 for three that match that! including two more without hard drives Dell Inspiron 5150 - how's THAT for diluting a once proud model number? There were even a few Dell Inspiron 5100s! John Titor, where are you? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6194 - Release Date: 03/21/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6194 - Release Date: 03/21/13 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 21 14:58:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <010501ce266d$6cfcf150$46f6d3f0$@com> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> <514B4F2C.4030906@sbcglobal.net> <20130321123648.O41745@shell.lmi.net> <010501ce266d$6cfcf150$46f6d3f0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We are selling the Dell GX260 with 1GB and 2.6 proc, XP Pro loaded, for $125 > retail with monitor! > ....so $25 sans XP and monitor? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 21 15:14:22 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:14:22 -0600 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <514B4AF6.1070207 at sbcglobal.net>, Dave Woyciesjes writes: > Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... > How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) Stuff that I've done since the last time you were here: - manx has moved from a private site hosted by Paul Williams to an open source project written by me and improved to allow easier addition of documents and has been generally improved. - the Computer Graphics Museum now has a web site with a blog: - the Terminals Wiki has been created and has over 500 different terminals in it: - SGI techpubs library has been mirrored on manx and all the metadata entered into manx, giving you a single source to search for SGI documents, regardless of where they are hosted. - I've scanned a bunch of documentation for bitsavers and all of that has been added to manx and continues to be added on an ongoing basis. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 21 15:18:06 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:18:06 -0600 Subject: Youtube annoyances (was: Univac 3 video on youube) In-Reply-To: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I'm starting to think we really need to get this sort of content migrated to archive.org where we can watch it without constantly being hounded by advertisements and overlay popups. Google has managed to take something wonderful and enjoyable like YouTUbe and turn it into an experience worse than commercial television. I'm as much a capitalist as the next guy, but YouTube has things like making me watch 30 seconds of commercial about something I'm never going to buy in order to watch a 15 second video clip. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 15:35:07 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:35:07 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Message-ID: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I may buy one in 1000 years if it proved to last that long. Reads a lot like a life time guarantee scam though. After the main batch of sales the company pays out employees then declares bankruptcy and you have your 1 year lifetime guarantee till they come out with a separate second company with the same name with a 2 and do it all over again. Its clever. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 21 16:00:57 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130321135539.L42507@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > I may buy one in 1000 years if it proved to last that long. > Reads a lot like a life time guarantee scam though. After the main > batch of sales the company pays out employees then declares bankruptcy Most of them declare bankruptcy without paying the employees. Only the top exec gets paid. > and you have your 1 year lifetime guarantee till they come out with a > separate second company with the same name with a 2 and do it all over > again. Its clever. Familiar with Warshawsky and Jc Whitney's? It's even easier if you have two companies, so that when each goes under, the other can buy the assets. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:09:48 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:09:48 -0400 Subject: Youtube annoyances (was: Univac 3 video on youube) In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Meet AdBlock Plus. Enjoy advertisement free YouTube. And if you think the video watching experience is annoying, I suggest you try and manage a few subscriptions with the *WONDERFULLY* redesigned "My Subscriptions" page. The fuck was Google thinking getting rid of the grid view? Also the new channel design... well I could explain my opinion on it, but I'll let someone else: http://youtu.be/7lpTxMNIwfk Cheers, Christian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 21 16:18:18 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:18:18 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> On 03/21/2013 01:35 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > I may buy one in 1000 years if it proved to last that long. > > Reads a lot like a life time guarantee scam though. After the main > batch of sales the company pays out employees then declares > bankruptcy and you have your 1 year lifetime guarantee till they come > out with a separate second company with the same name with a 2 and do > it all over again. Its clever. There are all sorts of variations on that scheme, requiring you to send back not only the faulty item, but also the original purchase receipt. I had a box (5 tubes) of 3M silicone caulk that went bad before I even had a chance to use it. 3M had an "unconditional 50 year warranty", but it meant that I had to provide the above and pay for return shipping. If I'd used it to seal the windows on my house, they'd probably just give me a free tube and leave me to scrape the old stuff out and apply a new batch. "Lifetime" guarantees are the worst abuse. I had a 2-year old drain spade made by True Temper fail (the blade cracked) with a prominent "Lifetime guarantee" sticker still visible on it. When I contacted TT to ask for a replacement, they went through a ritual of "you must have used it incorrectly" and eventually concluded the issue by saying "Lifetime" is what we say it is and your guarantee period is up. On the other hand, a 30-year old Le Creuset dutch oven shed a chip of the porcelain on the bottom. LC sent me a UPS return box and a new pot to replace it. All it cost was a phone call. What they received was several subsequent purchases of their goods from a surprised and loyal customer. I wish some companies would learn that lesson. But it seems that the prevalent attitude is "There's one born every minute". --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Mar 21 16:19:49 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:19:49 -0500 Subject: FS: MS-DOS & Turbo Pascal books Message-ID: <558E835F-1F08-427F-85A2-E03CF8C821F8@centurytel.net> FS: Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0 "User's Guide and Reference", $5 plus Media Mail shipping from 65775; Borland "Turbo Pascal for Windows User's Guide". $3 plus shipping. Also "Microsoft Windows Graphical Environment User's Guide" Version 3.0 from the Z-Nix Company, $2 plus shipping. thanks Charles From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Mar 21 16:34:25 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:34:25 -0500 Subject: FS: AMD "Build A Microcomputer"; Abacus "OS/2 Complete" Message-ID: More housecleaning :) 7-part "Build a Microcomputer" looseleaf application note series from AMD 1978, based on their 2900 series devices. Chapters are: Computer Architecture, Microprogrammed Design, The Data Path I & II, Program Control Unit, Interrupt, Direct Memory Access. $5 plus Media Mail shipping from 65775. "OS/2 Complete: A practical guide to the OS/2 operating system" version 2.1 by Peter Franken, 1992. $3 plus shipping. thanks Charles From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:43:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:43:43 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <77A09E84-8504-4B4D-8E93-A0708B719C17@gmail.com> On Mar 21, 2013, at 5:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the other hand, a 30-year old Le Creuset dutch oven shed a chip of the porcelain on the bottom. LC sent me a UPS return box and a new pot to replace it. All it cost was a phone call. What they received was several subsequent purchases of their goods from a surprised and loyal customer. Wow! That's a heavy item. I'm quite fond of ours, but I'm glad to hear that they'll perform a proper replacement if something comes off. Oxo, on the other hand... we had one of their tea kettles that opens when you pick it up. Nifty pot, and a nice cheerful orange color, but when we discovered sparkles in our tea and determined that it was shedding its interior enamel into the hot water, we called and asked for a replacement. We were told that it wasn't supposed to be heated above medium heat (hope you wanted your tea next Tuesday...) and that they might THINK about replacing it if we paid to send it back. We took it to Bed Bath and Beyond instead (because we had gotten it through our wedding registry there) and they gave us the cash value of the pot with no fuss. No receipt, no original box, nothing. We ended up buying a stainless steel teapot and a coat rack with the money. - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 21 16:43:36 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:43:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement In-Reply-To: <201303210531.r2L5Vanj011506@mx1.ezwind.net> from "Claunch, Carl" at Mar 21, 13 05:31:35 am Message-ID: > > I just picked up an RK05AA drive, unknown condition but it appears in good = > shape internally. As I was going through a detailed inspection, I touched t= > he foam that surrounds the air duct that connects to the access door on the= > cartridge, delivering clean air. The foam flaked off and seems to be deter= > iorating. Not as badly as the foam used in Selectric typewriters, which has= > turned to sludge after a few decades, but not something I want releasing p= > articles into an air stream that will flow under the heads. > > Is this a known issue with the drives? What do people who restore/repair th= YEs. As with all foam, it decays with time. > ese do to eliminate this source of contamination into the cartridge? I woul= > d like to address this before I install a new absolute filter. Even if you could find a NOS seal (and I did have a few), it will msot likely have decaysed by now, or at least won't last much longer. But the foam is not critical, just get something and cut the right shape to fit the end of the ducght and glue it in place. Should be fine. There is another foam seal on the input side of th eblowwer, between the blower and the cardcage. Remove it!. There is plenty of airflow over the board without it, and if you leave it in place it wil lend up contaminating the absolute filter. Remove the blower (4 Allen cap screws) and peel it off. > > Any tips for a substitute for the CE pack when I get to the point of loadin= > g heads and adjusting the drive? Not really. And those of us who ahve the CE packs do lt lend them out generally... However, unless you want to be able to exchange packs with other drives there is no need to align the heads.. The drive wil lread and write packs formated on itself with no problems. Also, unless you remvoe the heads form the positioner, or dismantle the optical transducer, or soemthign liek that, there is not really any need to realign the heads. You can remvoe the compelte positioner, or the spindle, put them abck and the alignment will be OK. Yes, I know the manual tells you to check the alignment if you remvoe said parts, and it;s a good ide to do so if you have the CE pack, but I have never needed ot adjust anything. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 21 16:59:23 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > "Lifetime" guarantees are the worst abuse. [...example of abuse...] > When I contacted TT to ask for a replacement, they went through a > ritual of "you must have used it incorrectly" and eventually > concluded the issue by saying "Lifetime" is what we say it is and > your guarantee period is up. Sounds to me like grounds for a small-claims suit, but of course I don't know how likely that would be to fly even where I am, never mind where you are. > On the other hand, a 30-year old Le Creuset dutch oven shed a chip of > the porcelain on the bottom. LC sent me a UPS return box and a new > pot to replace it. All it cost was a phone call. What they received > was several subsequent purchases of their goods from a surprised and > loyal customer. Quite so. Back when I was a kid, there was a brand of tool - I think it was the Sears house brand, but that memory is very fuzzy - that had lifetime guarantees that meant something. My father once found one of their wrenches in a ditch, corroded to the point where it was barely recognizable. He took it in and they replaced it, no questions, no fuss at all. > I wish some companies would learn that lesson. There are some that do. They are depressingly few-&-far-between. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From michael at almegacy.com Thu Mar 21 17:22:36 2013 From: michael at almegacy.com (MICHAEL RANDALL) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:22:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for information on Old Hewlett Packard Machines Message-ID: Does anyone have information on how to get initial sale date for old Hewlett Packard computers? The current system that HP has doesn?t cover old computers from the early 1990s. I am trying to find date of sale for the systems below, and if possible, the country in which they were originally registered: ? Hewlett Packard Series 9000 712/60 (Model Number A4024A), Base Model Number A2615A, Serial Number: 6420A50415 ? Hewlett Packard Series 9000 712/60 (Model Number A2854A), Base Model Number A2615A, Serial Number: 6406A50027 ? Hewlett Packard Series 9000 712/60 (Model Number A4023A), Base Model Number A2615A, Serial Number: 6428A50358 ? Hewlett Packard Series 9000 A2051-66521 HP 9000 E35 64Mhz CPU, Serial Number: 40110293VF Is there a database for old HP computers that someone can direct me to find out information on these? Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 21 17:26:35 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:26:35 -0700 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514B891B.2070001@sydex.com> On 03/21/2013 02:59 PM, Mouse wrote: > Back when I was a kid, there was a brand of tool - I think it was the > Sears house brand, but that memory is very fuzzy - that had lifetime > guarantees that meant something. My father once found one of their > wrenches in a ditch, corroded to the point where it was barely > recognizable. He took it in and they replaced it, no questions, no > fuss at all. Sears is/was "Craftsman" and that guarantee may still hold on hand tools--I'm not certain. At one time, Craftsman hand tools held their own against the likes of K-D and Snap-On in the area of automotive tools. About two years ago, I realized that I'd lost the Craftsman claw hammer that I purchased in 1972. It was a fiberglass-handle model that had excellent balance--one of those tools that feels like an extension of your arm. For a time, I contented myself with using a fairly expensive Dalluge hammer, but I couldn't take it. In desperation, I went to the local Sears store and described the hammer to a clerk in the tool department. He disappeared and came back with the new twin of my old trusty hammer--the only visible difference was the coloring of the epoxy in the "eye". Yes, it was still made in the USA after almost 40 years and still game with the "if it breaks, we'll replace it" warranty. I bought two of them. Subsequently, I discovered that I'd left my old hammer on top of a sill wall between joists. So now I've got three. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 17:34:57 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:34:57 -0400 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Back when I was a kid, there was a brand of tool - I think it was the > Sears house brand, but that memory is very fuzzy - that had lifetime > guarantees that meant something. My father once found one of their > wrenches in a ditch, corroded to the point where it was barely > recognizable. He took it in and they replaced it, no questions, no > fuss at all. That would be Craftsman. They still honor that guarantee, even for new tools. Power tools are not covered this way, however. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 21 17:52:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130321153848.B42507@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Mouse wrote: > Back when I was a kid, there was a brand of tool - I think it was the > Sears house brand, but that memory is very fuzzy - that had lifetime That would be "Craftsman". Their "Companion" line were second rate. "Companion" used to be a house brand of the Craftsman Tool Company, before Sears bought them out. In the 1950s and 1960s, Craftsman was excellent. In the 1970s, their quality plummeted down to well below what Harbor Freight now sells. I remember a Craftsman socket that was broached so far off-center that the wall on one side was more than twice as thick as the wall on the other side. But, they continued based solely on the gurantee and their previous reputation. > guarantees that meant something. My father once found one of their > wrenches in a ditch, corroded to the point where it was barely > recognizable. He took it in and they replaced it, no questions, no > fuss at all. In the 1970s, Snap-On was by far the best that was readily available. I used to buy tools at the flea market. For Snap-on, the condition was secondary, because they were excellent about exchanges. I remember one time when I encountered a seller who had a LOT of Snap-On and Craftsman wrenches from an estate. He wanted twice as much for the Craftsman ones, because HE had heard of them and their gurantee. I bought several dozen Snap-On items. One day, on the way home from Harbor Freight (with screwdrivers), we found a Snap-On screwdriver on the shoulder of the freeway ramp. The difference is visible. We always go slow on that ramp now. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 21 18:17:57 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130321160526.A42507@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, William Donzelli wrote: > That would be Craftsman. They still honor that guarantee, even for new > tools. Power tools are not covered this way, however. Harbor Freight has recently changed their guarantee. It used to be lifetime for all hand tools. Now it is lifetime "only for their "Pittsburgh" brand, AND requires receipt"! Their little voltmeter is an acceptable deal - free with coupon. Who, other than the seller, would be so attuned to the actual value? To offend those who are too poor to afford poor quality tools: There are SOME tools that I want to have one of available, but do not want to spend the appropriate price for a good one, such as 16mm and 18mm sockets. My brother is in town, and wants to borrow some tools. That makes me very glad that I have some HarborFreight screwdrivers and wrenches, and won't need to let him near my good ones. I don't even need to care whether he returns them! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 21 18:23:21 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:23:21 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <010501ce266d$6cfcf150$46f6d3f0$@com> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> <514B4F2C.4030906@sbcglobal.net> <20130321123648.O41745@shell.lmi.net> <010501ce266d$6cfcf150$46f6d3f0$@com> Message-ID: <543524DB-8163-4EA1-BBAD-D33F0CBA9901@sbcglobal.net> Sweet!!! On Mar 21, 2013, at 3:51 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > We are selling the Dell GX260 with 1GB and 2.6 proc, XP Pro loaded, for $125 > retail with monitor! > > Cindy Croxton > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:40 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: I'm baack... > >>> I've got this WONDERFUL >>> *****RARE***** >>> **** SUPER CLASSIC ***** @@@@ LOOOK @@@@******MUST SEEEEEEE****** >>> ****////ORIGINAL DELL/////****** 2.8GHZ *SCREAMER FOR ITS TIME* >>> PENTIUM *4* (NOT MANY LEFT!!!!!) >>> **** TWO GIGS OF RAM**** SMALL IN OUR TIME, BUT HUGE, HUGE >>> ABSOLUTELY HUGE FOR A WORKSTATION OF THAT PERIOD. >>> FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY FOR SALE ON THE MARKET~!!!!!! ORIGINAL LIST >>> PRICE >>> $1,400 YOURS NOW FOR A LIMITED TIME BID STARTING AT $10,000 GOOD >>> LUCK AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!! >>> I died a little inside typing that out. >> I expected nothing less... :) >> Funny thing is, I just gave away an old Dell that just about matched >> that description... > > I just spent $300 for three that match that! including two more without > hard drives Dell Inspiron 5150 - how's THAT for diluting a once proud model > number? > There were even a few Dell Inspiron 5100s! John Titor, where are you? > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6194 - Release Date: 03/21/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6194 - Release Date: 03/21/13 > From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 21 18:56:13 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:56:13 -0700 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> On 3/21/2013 2:59 PM, Mouse wrote: >> "Lifetime" guarantees are the worst abuse. [...example of abuse...] >> When I contacted TT to ask for a replacement, they went through a >> ritual of "you must have used it incorrectly" and eventually >> concluded the issue by saying "Lifetime" is what we say it is and >> your guarantee period is up. >> > Sounds to me like grounds for a small-claims suit, but of course I > don't know how likely that would be to fly even where I am, never mind > where you are. > > >> On the other hand, a 30-year old Le Creuset dutch oven shed a chip of >> the porcelain on the bottom. LC sent me a UPS return box and a new >> pot to replace it. All it cost was a phone call. What they received >> was several subsequent purchases of their goods from a surprised and >> loyal customer. >> > Quite so. > > Back when I was a kid, there was a brand of tool - I think it was the > Sears house brand, but that memory is very fuzzy - that had lifetime > guarantees that meant something. My father once found one of their > wrenches in a ditch, corroded to the point where it was barely > recognizable. He took it in and they replaced it, no questions, no > fuss at all. > > >> I wish some companies would learn that lesson. >> > There are some that do. They are depressingly few-&-far-between. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > Ya... that was the Sears "Craftsman" brand... don't try that today! :) steve From a50mhzham at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 19:07:23 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:07:23 -0500 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514ba25c.8125ec0a.1dd3.0765@mx.google.com> At 05:34 PM 3/21/2013, you wrote: > > Back when I was a kid, there was a brand of tool - I think it was the > >That would be Craftsman. They still honor that guarantee, even for new >tools. Power tools are not covered this way, however. Ah, but the great thing about Sears power tools is that you can still get parts for them. I still use the router I got from my dad. He got it in the 60's -- and it was a rebuild then. About 5 years ago, I needed to replace the bearings and thought I'd replace the collet while I was at it. I went online, found the manual with a parts diagram, ordered the parts, and got myself a like-new router out of it. 767 . [Truth] Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods. --Albert Einstein a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 21 19:27:06 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Youtube annoyances (was: Univac 3 video on youube) In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Meet AdBlock Plus. Enjoy advertisement free YouTube. > Indeed. Every time I watch YT one someone else's machine, I'm surprised by the number of ads. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 19:52:43 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:52:43 -0400 Subject: Youtube annoyances (was: Univac 3 video on youube) In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I really like: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/video-downloadhelper/ Or if I'm doing a whole bunch: http://jdownloader.org/ Just download them and watch at your leisure with VLC. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 20:08:10 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:08:10 -0400 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> Message-ID: > Ya... that was the Sears "Craftsman" brand... don't try that today! :) Sears still honors the guarantee, even with hand tools purchased now. -- Will From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 21 20:16:01 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:16:01 -0700 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> Message-ID: <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> On 3/21/2013 6:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Ya... that was the Sears "Craftsman" brand... don't try that today! :) >> > Sears still honors the guarantee, even with hand tools purchased now. > > -- > Will > > Interesting.. about a year ago I attempted to claim it on a craftsman socket wrench that wasn't locking. They offered a "discount" on a new one from stock in the store... From that experience, I assumed it was no longer available. steve From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 21 20:22:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> Message-ID: <20130321181947.F45885@shell.lmi.net> > Sears still honors the guarantee, a friend bought her IBM 5150 at Sears Computer Center ! 30 years ago From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 20:33:42 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:33:42 -0400 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> Message-ID: > Interesting.. about a year ago I attempted to claim it on a craftsman socket > wrench that wasn't locking. They offered a "discount" on a new one from > stock in the store... > From that experience, I assumed it was no longer available. You probably had a discontinued model. -- Will From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 21:37:50 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:37:50 -0500 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> Message-ID: <0B3E7FA4-4359-4EF0-9E83-9705A374E135@gmail.com> I had made about three claims on the same problem with their Craftsman ratchet wrenches, and the current one is experiencing the same problem. I've decided I'm never buying another Craftsman ratchet wrench again. On Mar 21, 2013, at 8:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 3/21/2013 6:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Ya... that was the Sears "Craftsman" brand... don't try that today! :) >>> >> Sears still honors the guarantee, even with hand tools purchased now. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > Interesting.. about a year ago I attempted to claim it on a craftsman socket wrench that wasn't locking. They offered a "discount" on a new one from stock in the store... > From that experience, I assumed it was no longer available. > > steve From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 21:39:17 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:39:17 -0500 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> Message-ID: They don't have lifetime guarantees on all their tools anymore. I had a Craftsman torque wrench break on the plastic locking set ring and they wouldn't replace it. There was only a 1 year warranty on that one. On Mar 21, 2013, at 8:33 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Interesting.. about a year ago I attempted to claim it on a craftsman socket >> wrench that wasn't locking. They offered a "discount" on a new one from >> stock in the store... >> From that experience, I assumed it was no longer available. > > You probably had a discontinued model. > > -- > Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 21:48:55 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 22:48:55 -0400 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <0B3E7FA4-4359-4EF0-9E83-9705A374E135@gmail.com> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> <0B3E7FA4-4359-4EF0-9E83-9705A374E135@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I had made about three claims on the same problem with their Craftsman ratchet wrenches, and the current one is experiencing the same problem. I've decided I'm never buying another Craftsman ratchet wrench again. Maybe they now have a real dog of a tool then - perhaps they switched suppliers. I had to buy a new Craftsman ratchet and socket set about five years ago, after some of my tools were stolen, and I have been very happy with it so far. Oh well. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 22:01:47 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:01:47 -0400 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> Message-ID: > They don't have lifetime guarantees on all their tools anymore. I had a Craftsman torque wrench break on the plastic locking set ring and they wouldn't replace it. There was only a 1 year warranty on that one. Yes, some things (like the torque wrenches) only have a year or so, but most, by far, have the forever warranty. I just cruised the Sears website, and it seems that every socket wrench I looked at does have the forever warranty - so I am confused why anyone would have problems replacing one. I can see why torque wrenches are not covered - people tend to fuck them up easily and get them out of calibration - something not easily confirmed by a casual glance, like a busted screwdriver. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Mar 21 22:26:44 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 03:26:44 +0000 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D85024@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 3/21/13 12:58 PM, "geneb" wrote: >On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> We are selling the Dell GX260 with 1GB and 2.6 proc, XP Pro loaded, for >>$125 >> retail with monitor! >> >....so $25 sans XP and monitor? :) > No, it costs more if XP has already been cleaned off it. :-) -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 21 22:46:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:46:46 -0700 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514B9E1D.50406@att.net> <514BB0D1.7040407@att.net> <0B3E7FA4-4359-4EF0-9E83-9705A374E135@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514BD426.8040007@sydex.com> On 03/21/2013 07:48 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Maybe they now have a real dog of a tool then - perhaps they switched > suppliers. I had to buy a new Craftsman ratchet and socket set about > five years ago, after some of my tools were stolen, and I have been > very happy with it so far. Didn't Sears get sued over their rachet wrench design by some guy who won his case of patent infringement? I still have my ancient model and it's working as well as it ever did. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Fri Mar 22 02:01:58 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 00:01:58 -0700 Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <514C01E6.40009@jwsss.com> On 3/21/2013 5:52 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I really like: > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/video-downloadhelper/ may be stating the blatently obvious but the ffmpeg + this on linux works On other platforms not so much. Totally useless and bugered on Windows, havent bothered with trying it on the mac, connections to my macs are too slow. However the ffmpeg on linux if upgraded does a really good job of converting a lot of media. BTW On this topic, the CHM media collection is quite nice and is embedded i think so you don't get hit by bullshit. jim From CyndeM at vulcan.com Thu Mar 21 15:01:41 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:01:41 +0000 Subject: The RICM Needs Two DEC BC09A Cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643ED16B@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:28 PM To: cctech Subject: The RICM Needs Two DEC BC09A Cables The RICM has their PDP-9 processor and core working nicely now, except for the DAC and DZM instructions. Once we get the processor and paper tape reader/punch restoration completed the next task will be connecting the TC59 tape controller and the TU20 tape drive. Bitsavers has the TC59 manuals. I bought an HP 7975A maintenance manual for the TU20 tape transport that is now scanned and on Bitsavers. We don't have any documentation for the rack of electronics in the bottom of the TU20 that connects the 7975A to the TC59. Does anyone have DEC TU20 documentation? Where could we find two BC09A cables to connect the TC59 to the PDP-9 processor? -- Michael Thompson I have no BC09's, but I do have the following document. I can send you a scan if you like. 110 2 ?aDigital Equipment Corporation. 245 10 ?aTU20 tape transport maintenance manual,?b(Order no. DEC-00-I4AB-D) /?cDigital Equipment Corporation,?fJanuary 1971. 250 ?a4th print. (Rev.) 260 ?aMaynard, Mass. :?bDigital Equipment Corp.,?cc1971. 300 ?a[v, 79 p. ; variously paginated] :?bill. ;?c28 cm. 490 1 ?aDEC-00-I4AB-D 505 2 ?aIntroduction -- Installation -- Operation and programming -- Principles of operation -- Maintenance -- Engineering drawings. 520 0 ?aThis manual,together with referenced documents, provides operation and maintenance information for the TU20 tape transport used with the PDP-8, PDP-9, PDP-15,or PDP-10 computers. The levels of discussion assume that the reader has a familiarity with the applicable processor, as well as a working knowledge of similar magnetic tape systems. Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist, Vintage Computing Living Computer Museum 206 342 2385 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org From doc at vaxen.net Thu Mar 21 17:51:16 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:51:16 -0500 Subject: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E8A74F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E88A4C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <514B27E1.4000003@vaxen.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E8A74F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <514B8EE4.20905@vaxen.net> This guy? http://www.frontiercomputercorp.com/Products/Servers/IBM-Servers/RS6000/RS6000-Deskside/7043-240.aspx That stand is simply a VERY heavy steel plate with, if I remember correctly, 2 captive #12 screws. The only good one that I have is attached to my 44P. If I didn't chuck it for scrap I might have a damaged one that came from a 7043-240. If I still have it, it's got one bent corner. A guy with an enterprising soul and a hacksaw could make it right. Or I can certainly get you the measurements to make one. Doc On 3/21/13 12:31 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > I'm 99.9% sure it's a 240. The unit itself is labeled 3590-A50. The FRU on the stand should be 12H0619, I think. > > Happen to have some in stock? :) > > Many many thanks! > > -Ben > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Doc [doc at vaxen.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:31 AM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P > > On 3/20/13 8:39 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Hi! >> Anyone have a vertical stand for an IBM 7043-43P they'd be willing to sell? >> >> Many thanks! > > Ben, there were several distinct models of 7043-43P and at least a > couple of different stands. Which model is yours? > > > Doc > From steve at tronola.com Thu Mar 21 19:26:47 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:26:47 -0400 Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303220027.r2M0QsU2034212@mx1.ezwind.net> >The foam flaked off and seems to be deteriorating. --- Hi Carl, Just to add to Philipp's excellent advice: I replaced the foam in my RK05 with 1-inch high density foam from a JoAnn store: http://www.joann.com/airtex-foam-chairpads-1-high-density/prd23481/?green=CEAAEA74-B2CB-5A0E-A528-20128176D1D7 Their warning not to cut with hot wire is not to be ignored! I found that cutting with an electric knife worked well. Used contact cement to glue it to the blower flange. Works great. There is about 3/4" clearance between card cage and blower, so it compresses appropriately. By the way, removal of the blower is a pill. The fasteners are buried deep and require a hex key driver that is much longer than ordinary ones. Found an inexpensive set at Home Depot, which did the job. One fastener is particularly hard to get to. I decided to replace the hex fasteners with ordinary screws and emphatically did not install the fourth one. Three work fine. Note that the Velcro strap which is used to tighten the absolute filter is laid under the blower mounting, to secure it. I used adhesive to keep it in place when the blower is removed. I notice that a lot of these drives seem to be missing the prefilter, as mine was. I used a common window screen kit to make the replacement filter. Used window screen on the outside but 100um nylon filter fabric from eBay, also tucked into the spline on the inside. Makes a decent facsimile of the original prefilter. You can buy new-old-stock replacement absolute filters here: http://www.varx.com/ I paid $60, plus shipping. A tip about getting the old filter out: I found it difficult to pull the filter off of the flange leading to the blower. Thinking that I must not be doing something right, I ended up pulling the blower off again to see what was happening. Finally decided that the old filter just had to be yanked off. Perhaps the plastic has stiffened with age. It finally came off. One thing that distracted me was the fact that, in spite of the flange blocking removal, the absolute filter fits the blower duct very loosely. Hence, a Velcro strap is provided to tighten the filter against the duct. Some might think all this attention to filtering is overkill but after seeing the illustration on p. 1-17 of the 1976 RK05 maintenance manual of the 100um head flying height versus various contaminants, I have been very careful about dust. It's a relief that Philipp has had not-so-bad experiences with head crashes but I would like to minimize the risks. Steve L. http://www.tronola.com/ From gyorpb at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 02:38:40 2013 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:38:40 +0100 Subject: Youtube annoyances (was: Univac 3 video on youube) In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <96F06B35-3369-44CB-9FDE-6DD7D6C153C5@gmail.com> On 21 mrt. 2013, at 22:09, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Meet AdBlock Plus. Enjoy advertisement free YouTube. I use this: Works system-wide, as opposed to a browser plug-in that only works in one specific browser. Could even be used site-wide on a router. If someone were to tell me how to do that on an Apple AirPort router, I would be most grateful. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 02:41:44 2013 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 03:41:44 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D85024@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D85024@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: $50 fee for microsoft signature service. *snicker* On Mar 21, 2013 11:29 PM, "Ian King" wrote: > On 3/21/13 12:58 PM, "geneb" wrote: > > >On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > > >> We are selling the Dell GX260 with 1GB and 2.6 proc, XP Pro loaded, for > >>$125 > >> retail with monitor! > >> > >....so $25 sans XP and monitor? :) > > > > No, it costs more if XP has already been cleaned off it. :-) -- Ian > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 22 03:25:42 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 01:25:42 -0700 Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: <96F06B35-3369-44CB-9FDE-6DD7D6C153C5@gmail.com> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> <96F06B35-3369-44CB-9FDE-6DD7D6C153C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514C1586.6050109@sydex.com> On 03/22/2013 12:38 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > Works system-wide, as opposed to a browser plug-in that only works in > one specific browser. Could even be used site-wide on a router. If > someone were to tell me how to do that on an Apple AirPort router, I > would be most grateful. Dunno about Apple, but the HOSTS trick doesn't allow for wildcards, so you're always playing catch-up as the ad sites add new subdomains. In the bad old days of Windows NT, there was rather clever little program that would serve to redirect references to a specific IP gateway through a filter before passing them along. It worked quite well and I don't know whatever happened to it. It also allowed for wildcard expressions. --Chuck From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Mar 22 04:27:03 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:27:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VMS documentation binders to give away In-Reply-To: <1029135155-1363893711-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-10824447-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1029135155-1363893711-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-10824447-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1363944423.68394.YahooMailNeo@web133103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello Sam, they are written in English. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ >________________________________ > Von: Sam O'nella >An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Gesendet: 20:21 Donnerstag, 21.M?rz 2013 >Betreff: Re: VMS documentation binders to give away > >Out of curiosity what language are the manuals written in? > > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 22 08:13:39 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: <514C1586.6050109@sydex.com> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> <96F06B35-3369-44CB-9FDE-6DD7D6C153C5@gmail.com> <514C1586.6050109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201303221313.JAA15373@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [replacing the local hosts file] >> Works system-wide, as opposed to a browser plug-in that only works >> in one specific browser. [...] > Dunno about Apple, but the HOSTS trick doesn't allow for wildcards, > so you're always playing catch-up as the ad sites add new subdomains. Well, instead of fiddling files, you could always just tell your house DNS server it's authoritative for the node(s) you wish to prune out of existence for you. You could put in a wildcard 127.0.0.1 record or just leave the zones in question empty.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Mar 22 08:28:22 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:28:22 -0500 Subject: "Lifetime" guarantees [was Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage] In-Reply-To: <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1916023381-1363898105-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-788428342-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514B791A.2060801@sydex.com> <201303212159.RAA03076@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514C5C76.5080103@compsys.to> >Mouse wrote: >>I wish some companies would learn that lesson. >> >There are some that do. They are depressingly few-&-far-between. > There is one company in Toronto which makes HATS - Tilly I am on my third hat after 9 years. I use it almost every day when I walk in good weather - about 6 months of the year. They replace it each time - no questions asked. They advertise it can be eaten by an elephant and still used. The hat is guaranteed for the LIFE OF THE COMPANY!! although "Lifetime Guarantee" is the description. So if I pass it along to one of my grandchildren, the hat will still be under guarantee. YES!!!!!!!!! NOT MANY SUCH COMPANIES LEFT!! Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Mar 22 08:33:21 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:33:21 -0500 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> >Tom Sparks wrote: >>The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. >> >>http://www.mdisc.com/ >> >>Anyone have experience with these? >> >>--Chuck >> >>(wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) >> >forget it there is no way you'll be able to play anything digital in a 1,000 years >because of Digital obsolescence[1] and add copyrights >the best example is the BBC Domesday Project[2] > > > >[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_obsolescence >[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project > There is an assumption here which seems to have been missed. One viewpoint is that the data will be kept without any attempt to read the data during the 1000 years. Based on how storage media changes every ten years, let alone 1000 years, it seems almost self evident that drives able to read any data written more than 100 years previously just will not exist. If however the data files in question are checked and tested every so often, the the following four concepts will likely apply. (a) Survival of the media (b) Survival of the drive (c) Survival of operating system software which can read the file structure (d) Survival of programs which can read the data structure of the file In my experience, while (a) and (b) might survive, current operating system software has not survived very long and should not be relied upon to exist in the future. In practice, this will require every user who wants to be able to read any given file that is archived to check what is available often enough to be able to read old files. Naturally, as a by-product of checking (c), this will also check (a) and (b) - at which point, making a new copy of the file using current hardware will probably be just as cost effective as maintaining old drives to read the old data. Current storage costs are so low that it seems very doubtful that the cost of storage for a new copy would outweigh the cost of maintaining an old drive. However, (d) seems even more of a problems as programs such as editors abandon old formats without even retaining read only capability within newer versions of the program. For users who want to be able to read old files, it will probably be necessary to make fresh copies every few years in order to handle older data structures within a file. For very long term storage sites, the same requirement applies. I do agree that current DVD players are still able to read the data from any original DVD media burned when they first became available. Perhaps DVD's will be one of the very few hardware media which will survive much longer than usual. But more than even 100 years seems entirely unlikely. Jerome Fine Jerome Fine From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 22 08:39:27 2013 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:39:27 -0500 Subject: Surplus and haunts in LA? Message-ID: Relocating, and looking for your recommendations to feed the electronics/computer/ham habit. I'm thinking there must be a ton of aerospace junk for sale, or perhaps today its sadly shredded. Whats out there on the West Coast in the LA area? Randy KF7CJW From qkalfut at yahoo.com Fri Mar 22 08:39:33 2013 From: qkalfut at yahoo.com (David Kalfut) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 06:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: message Message-ID: <1363959573.87349.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://apextrans.net/qneysv/bevktn?xidfphjplfi From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 22 09:47:03 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:47:03 -0400 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <514C6EE7.5090506@sbcglobal.net> On 03/21/2013 04:14 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <514B4AF6.1070207 at sbcglobal.net>, > Dave Woyciesjes writes: > >> Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... >> How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) > > Stuff that I've done since the last time you were here: > > - manx has moved from a private site hosted by Paul Williams to an open > source project written by me and improved to allow easier addition of > documents and has been generally improved. > > - the Computer Graphics Museum now has a web site with a blog: > > > - the Terminals Wiki has been created and has over 500 different > terminals in it: > > - SGI techpubs library has been mirrored on manx and all the metadata > entered into manx, giving you a single source to search for SGI documents, > regardless of where they are hosted. > > - I've scanned a bunch of documentation for bitsavers and all of that > has been added to manx and continues to be added on an ongoing basis. > Nice. I'll have to peek at it all.. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 22 09:49:18 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > (d) Survival of programs which can read the data structure of the file > However, (d) seems even more of a problems as programs such as > editors abandon old formats without even retaining read only > capability within newer versions of the program. Why on earth would anyone who cares about data preservation use a closed data format?! I would convert everything to plain text, one way or another. If necessary, I would include a text file describing everything (unobvious or not; I would prefer to describe unnecessarily than omit something I thought obvious only for it to be unobvious to the future readers). I don't know which natural languages will still be extant a thousand years on, but, given the number of people today who can understand texts from a millennium (or more!) ago, I would expect such expertise to be available, though probably not common. This could perhaps be improved by including a deliberate Rosetta stone - translate the text into every sufficiently major language live at the time (which today might mean English, Arabic, Mandarin, Russian, and Hindi, to name the ones that come to my mind immediately). It might also help to treat the future readers as first-contact aliens (because, mentally, they very well might amount to that) and include a prelude along those lines; people have given a good deal of thought to that question and their recommendations might be worth reading. As for character-set encoding, I see no alternative but to assume that the future readers are at least as competent at breaking simple substitution ciphers as we are, which pretty much amounts to ignoring the issue. If you're including a first-contact style prelude, it may be able to help. > I do agree that current DVD players are still able to read the data > from any original DVD media burned when they first became available. Were the first DVDs burned? I've always assumed they were pressed, more or less like CDs. Am I wrong? > Perhaps DVD's will be one of the very few hardware media which will > survive much longer than usual. But more than even 100 years seems > entirely unlikely. Yeah. Compare today to 1913.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri Mar 22 09:59:05 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:59:05 +0000 Subject: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P In-Reply-To: <514B8EE4.20905@vaxen.net> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E88A4C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <514B27E1.4000003@vaxen.net> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E8A74F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <514B8EE4.20905@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750E8B975@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! Thanks for that link! No, that's not it, so it must be the 140. It looks like this: http://www.frontiercomputercorp.com/Products/Servers/IBM-Servers/RS6000/RS6000-Deskside/7043-140.aspx There is also a PDF that shows the setup instructions for it here: http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/systems/hardware_docs/pdf/380510.pdf I'm pretty sure it ought to be plastic. The unit I have is pretty compact and isn't very heavy. Many many thanks! -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Doc Shipley [doc at vaxen.net] Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 3:51 PM To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P This guy? http://www.frontiercomputercorp.com/Products/Servers/IBM-Servers/RS6000/RS6000-Deskside/7043-240.aspx That stand is simply a VERY heavy steel plate with, if I remember correctly, 2 captive #12 screws. The only good one that I have is attached to my 44P. If I didn't chuck it for scrap I might have a damaged one that came from a 7043-240. If I still have it, it's got one bent corner. A guy with an enterprising soul and a hacksaw could make it right. Or I can certainly get you the measurements to make one. Doc On 3/21/13 12:31 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > I'm 99.9% sure it's a 240. The unit itself is labeled 3590-A50. The FRU on the stand should be 12H0619, I think. > > Happen to have some in stock? :) > > Many many thanks! > > -Ben > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Doc [doc at vaxen.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:31 AM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Vertical stand for IBM 7043-43P > > On 3/20/13 8:39 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Hi! >> Anyone have a vertical stand for an IBM 7043-43P they'd be willing to sell? >> >> Many thanks! > > Ben, there were several distinct models of 7043-43P and at least a > couple of different stands. Which model is yours? > > > Doc > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 22 10:11:46 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> > > Perhaps DVD's will be one of the very few hardware media which will > > survive much longer than usual. But more than even 100 years seems > > entirely unlikely. > Yeah. Compare today to 1913.... punch cards have held up well From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 10:14:57 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:14:57 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote: >> (d) Survival of programs which can read the data structure of the file > >> However, (d) seems even more of a problems as programs such as >> editors abandon old formats without even retaining read only >> capability within newer versions of the program. > > Why on earth would anyone who cares about data preservation use a > closed data format?! Because sometimes they are prohibited from doing otherwise by their employers (governments are especially guilty of this, since their staffs are often either incompetent or consultants who have a financial interest in prolonging the agony). Often enough, especially with governments, the person put in charge of data preservation is not someone who has the foggiest idea of how to actually go about it. They then have to rely on other people to do it, which is great if you know the right people and disastrous if you only THINK you know the right people. >> I do agree that current DVD players are still able to read the data >> from any original DVD media burned when they first became available. > > Were the first DVDs burned? I've always assumed they were pressed, > more or less like CDs. Am I wrong? I assumed the question to specifically mean early DVD-Rs, but that could be errant. - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 22 10:17:32 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:17:32 -0500 Subject: virtual library Message-ID: <006a01ce2710$60145bb0$203d1310$@com> I found the Virtual Library today, vlib.org. MANY interesting sites, check it out! Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6195 - Release Date: 03/21/13 From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 10:55:29 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:55:29 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting Message-ID: Don't know if any of you guys watch "The Americans" on FX. For those not in the know, this show follows two KGB operatives living as Americans in the US during the height of the Cold War in the early 80's. In the episode from this week, there was a scene in an FBI building and in the background there was a TRS-80 Model III sitting next to a bank of tape drives. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 22 11:25:48 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201303221625.MAA16399@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Why on earth would anyone who cares about data preservation use a >> closed data format?! > Because sometimes they are prohibited from doing otherwise [...] Well, true. Anything can be done badly. But coming up with advice for long-term data preservation for someone under the imposed constraint of a closed data format is a bit like coming up with advice for someone who wants to build a high-performance car under the imposed constraint that the wheels be square: the constraint breaks the goal so fundamentally that there's not much point in even trying. My advice for anyone interested in data preservation in a closed format is to burn it to a CD or DVD and leave it at that; it will almost certainly go unusable before the medium fails or becomes unreadable. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 11:31:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:31:21 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303221625.MAA16399@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201303221625.MAA16399@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Why on earth would anyone who cares about data preservation use a >>> closed data format?! >> Because sometimes they are prohibited from doing otherwise [...] > > Well, true. Anything can be done badly. But coming up with advice for > long-term data preservation for someone under the imposed constraint of > a closed data format is a bit like coming up with advice for someone > who wants to build a high-performance car under the imposed constraint > that the wheels be square: the constraint breaks the goal so > fundamentally that there's not much point in even trying. I think we're on the same page here. I suppose it would be fair to say that the folks who would use closed data formats to preserve data do not actually care about data preservation, so I didn't quite answer the question you asked. :-) - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 21 21:17:24 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:17:24 -0700 Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <514BBF34.7080705@sydex.com> On 03/21/2013 05:27 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2013, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > >> Meet AdBlock Plus. Enjoy advertisement free YouTube. >> > Indeed. Every time I watch YT one someone else's machine, I'm surprised > by the number of ads. :) To Firefox I usually add SiteBlock and Ghostery. Lately, I've been adding Flashblock as well. AdBlock Plus is also available for Opera (for the non-Firefox people). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 22 11:43:50 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:43:50 -0700 Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: <201303221313.JAA15373@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> <96F06B35-3369-44CB-9FDE-6DD7D6C153C5@gmail.com> <514C1586.6050109@sydex.com> <201303221313.JAA15373@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514C8A46.1010003@sydex.com> On 03/22/2013 06:13 AM, Mouse wrote: > Well, instead of fiddling files, you could always just tell your house > DNS server it's authoritative for the node(s) you wish to prune out of > existence for you. You could put in a wildcard 127.0.0.1 record or > just leave the zones in question empty.... I do in fact do that for the more odieus cases--just an entry in the dnsmasq config file. But you still have to edit it... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 22 11:52:23 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:52:23 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <514C8C47.4020503@sydex.com> When I was fairly new at the CD-R thing, I began purchasing what was then known as Mitsui Gold media, which claimed a lifetime of 300 years. I can still read what I wrote then just fine--but so can I also read the stuff written on bargain-basement "blue" CD-Rs. I got an 8" floppy in yesterday from a machine shop operation who needed their software rescued. This was Maxell "R-V" floppies; something like "Reliable and Verified". The odd thing is that the data was recoverable just fine (written sometime during the 70s), but the floppy *jacket* was disintegrating--it had developed large cracks and was starting to crumble away. This makes me wonder how many years a "1000 year" CD-R will have on it before the substrate disintegrates, rendering the medium unreadable... --Chuck From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 11:56:24 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:56:24 -0400 Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: <514C01E6.40009@jwsss.com> References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> <514C01E6.40009@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:01 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > may be stating the blatently obvious but the ffmpeg + this on linux works > On other platforms not so much. Totally useless and bugered on Windows, > havent bothered with trying it on the mac, connections to my macs are too > slow. > > However the ffmpeg on linux if upgraded does a really good job of > converting a lot of media. I just went into the about:configuration for the add-in and pointed it at the ffmpeg that installed with Handbrake and it seemed to work fine. I don't bother converting anymore, since most Youtube videos now come in mp4 or on2 flavors, and what isn't converted, VLC can play back FLVs just fine. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 22 11:58:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201303221625.MAA16399@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130322095606.C55538@shell.lmi.net> > I think we're on the same page here. I suppose it would be fair to > say that the folks who would use closed data formats to preserve > data do not actually care about data preservation, so I didn't quite > answer the question you asked. :-) Not necessarily so much of "do not actually care", but definitely "unclear on the concept". Our college administration mandated that ALL documents be Word Pervert. Now, they ALL must be Microsoft Weird. THEY have no idea that "test" EXISTS! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 13:22:18 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:22:18 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Message-ID: <96276712-1363976539-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1570926458-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I can't wait to find my 1000 year old or perhaps my great-great-great...at grandkids will finally be able to access my password protected zip file. Maybe this is an investment call to collectors who get called upon to recover media? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 14:05:50 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:05:50 -0500 Subject: message In-Reply-To: <1363959573.87349.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1363959573.87349.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <514CAB8E.4080108@gmail.com> On 03/22/2013 08:39 AM, David Kalfut wrote: > http://apextransx.net/qneysv/bevktn?xidfphjplfi What's this new-fangled HTTP of which you speak? Do you have a Gopher version of that? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 22 14:23:36 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:23:36 -0700 Subject: I'm baack... In-Reply-To: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> References: <514B4AF6.1070207@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 2:01 PM -0400 3/21/13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... >How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) I'll plead the 5th... > One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic >computer been updated from the 10 year rule? It seems like it wasn't that long ago that I argued something along the lines that anything non-PC (or interesting/revolutionary PC) over 10 years old should be considered a classic. Now I could probably be convinced that the cut-off should be about 1996. That's depressing. :-( Just like 3 years ago, I'm still looking to dump most of my collection. Though unlike 3 years ago, I'm much more serious. In fact I got rid of the first system about a week ago. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:01:40 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:01:40 -0400 Subject: message In-Reply-To: <514CAB8E.4080108@gmail.com> References: <1363959573.87349.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <514CAB8E.4080108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 03/22/2013 08:39 AM, David Kalfut wrote: > >> http://apextransx.net/qneysv/**bevktn?xidfphjplfi >> > > What's this new-fangled HTTP of which you speak? Do you have a Gopher > version of that? > .net domain, probably some sort of weird experiment. From the gibberish at the end maybe Compuserve is trying to tie their electronic email addresses to the internet? From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 22 15:03:39 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:39 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514CB91B.70605@snarc.net> > Don't know if any of you guys watch "The Americans" on FX. For those not in > the know, this show follows two KGB operatives living as Americans in the > US during the height of the Cold War in the early 80's. In the episode from > this week, there was a scene in an FBI building and in the background there > was a TRS-80 Model III sitting next to a bank of tape drives. I saw that too. The scene also showed several large tape drives, which I think are wooden props. Some episodes show the spies in their cover business -- a travel agency -- where they use Commodore PETs. There's also a recurring Russian embassy set, where several desks including the Russian ambassador's have DEC terminals. One of the PETs, all of the DEC terminals, and various printers / teleprinters came from us in MARCH. All of the metal desks came from our host museum (InfoAge Science Center) in Wall, New Jersey. When the prop company approached us, they wanted PETs for all the FBI and Russian embassy desks, but we explained to them that it's a ridiculous set-up -- PETs would not be used in that environment. It was also convenient because we had several beat-up terminals in our storage warehouse. So the show has a more accurate technology representation (or maybe it's just less inaccurate -- after all, what do I know about computers in a Russian embassy in the early 80s, or if there even were any?) ... and MARCH cleared some storage space and made a few dollars for our budget. The FBI set has generic PC clones on each desk. I forget which brand/model. The prop company bought them elsewhere. Computing aside, "The Americans" is a very good show! I've really been enjoying it. I think next week's episode is last one for this season, but FX announced that they bought 13 episodes for next season. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 22 15:07:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: message In-Reply-To: References: <1363959573.87349.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <514CAB8E.4080108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 03/22/2013 08:39 AM, David Kalfut wrote: >> >>> http://apextransx.net/qneysv/**bevktn?xidfphjplfi >>> >> >> What's this new-fangled HTTP of which you speak? Do you have a Gopher >> version of that? >> > > .net domain, probably some sort of weird experiment. From the gibberish at > the end maybe Compuserve is trying to tie their electronic email addresses > to the internet? It's either a virus or a trojan link from YET ANOTHER comprimised Yahoo account. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:24:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:24:23 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting Message-ID: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Awesome MARCH :-) you preemptively answered my question if anyone here had helped with the computers. Have to check it out just for that. From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 22 15:35:40 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:35:40 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <514CC09C.2060400@snarc.net> > Awesome MARCH :-) you preemptively answered my question if anyone here had helped with the computers. Have to check it out just for that. Thanks. :) Fyi, the show is not family-friendly. Lots of sex and violence. I like it! But not everyone agrees. From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 22 15:42:30 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:42:30 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <514CC236.1050407@snarc.net> > Awesome MARCH :-) you preemptively answered my question if anyone here had helped with the computers. Have to check it out just for that. You can watch the previous episodes on Hulu and iTunes. I think the next new episode is in two weeks from last night. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:43:39 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 15:43:39 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: <514CB91B.70605@snarc.net> References: <514CB91B.70605@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Some episodes show the spies in their cover business -- a travel agency -- > where they use Commodore PETs. There's also a recurring Russian embassy > set, where several desks including the Russian ambassador's have DEC > terminals. > > I had forgotten about the PETs, but now that you mention it I do remember them. > When the prop company approached us, they wanted PETs for all the FBI and > Russian embassy desks, but we explained to them that it's a ridiculous > set-up -- PETs would not be used in that environment. It was also > convenient because we had several beat-up terminals in our storage > warehouse. So the show has a more accurate technology representation (or > maybe it's just less inaccurate -- after all, what do I know about > computers in a Russian embassy in the early 80s, or if there even were > any?) ... and MARCH cleared some storage space and made a few dollars for > our budget. > Very cool! They seem to have done a reasonable job of making the show look "period" to the 80's. I am glad that they toned down Matthew Rhys perm job though after the pilot... that was a little over the top. > Computing aside, "The Americans" is a very good show! I've really been > enjoying it. I think next week's episode is last one for this season, but > FX announced that they bought 13 episodes for next season. > I agree... I've been enjoying it. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 22 15:47:42 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: <514CC09C.2060400@snarc.net> References: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514CC09C.2060400@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2013, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Awesome MARCH :-) you preemptively answered my question if anyone here had >> helped with the computers. Have to check it out just for that. > > Thanks. :) > > Fyi, the show is not family-friendly. Lots of sex and violence. I like it! > But not everyone agrees. They should probably keep their pweshush snowflakes locked in a box then. It's an adult world. They need to figure this out. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 22 16:09:08 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 17:09:08 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: References: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514CC09C.2060400@snarc.net> Message-ID: <514CC874.1090904@snarc.net> >>> Awesome MARCH :-) you preemptively answered my question if anyone >>> here had helped with the computers. Have to check it out just for that. >> >> Thanks. :) >> >> Fyi, the show is not family-friendly. Lots of sex and violence. I like >> it! But not everyone agrees. > > They should probably keep their pweshush snowflakes locked in a box > then. It's an adult world. They need to figure this out. > > g. > ...Just saying, in case any list members wanted to show the computers to their young kids or anything... there's a lot of stuff in the show not for young eyes. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 22 16:35:39 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 21:35:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement In-Reply-To: <201303220027.r2M0QsU2034212@mx1.ezwind.net> from "Steve Lafferty" at Mar 21, 13 08:26:47 pm Message-ID: > By the way, removal of the blower is a pill. The fasteners are buried > deep and require a hex key driver that is much longer than ordinary > ones. Found an inexpensive set at Home Depot, which did the job. One I had no problem s getting mine in and out. I forget which tools I used, either the Xcellite 99 key on a 5" extension or another set of long T-handeld hex keys I have. > fastener is particularly hard to get to. I decided to replace the hex > fasteners with ordinary screws and emphatically did not install the > fourth one. Three work fine. Note that the Velcro strap which is used to I would much rather use Allen hex (or Torx, but thsoe are not original) fasteners in a confined space than slot-hed or Phillips/Pozidriv ones. With the former types you cna put the bolt on the end of the tool and fiddle it into place. I put my blowwer back with all 4 screws. Incitentally, if you want o strip tyhe blower down (I've done it for cleaning, and also to make a good blower from 2 dead ones), you need a long allen key to remvoe the grub screw in the impeller. It goes in between the blades. Again. the Xcellite 99 tool fits perfectly. -tony From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 17:14:40 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 22:14:40 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model III sighting In-Reply-To: <514CC874.1090904@snarc.net> References: <544400926-1363983864-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1428929561-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <514CC09C.2060400@snarc.net> <514CC874.1090904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1837598182-1363990481-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-38799090-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Yup. I appreciate the warning as I could have sat down with the kids and wife and put it on to check it out. They'll just have to see those systems in daddy's collection and not via the show lol. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 17:09:08 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model III sighting >>> Awesome MARCH :-) you preemptively answered my question if anyone >>> here had helped with the computers. Have to check it out just for that. >> >> Thanks. :) >> >> Fyi, the show is not family-friendly. Lots of sex and violence. I like >> it! But not everyone agrees. > > They should probably keep their pweshush snowflakes locked in a box > then. It's an adult world. They need to figure this out. > > g. > ...Just saying, in case any list members wanted to show the computers to their young kids or anything... there's a lot of stuff in the show not for young eyes. From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Mar 22 20:01:09 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 21:01:09 -0400 Subject: XY8E plotter control docs? In-Reply-To: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Now online http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=282 From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 20:29:11 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:29:11 -0700 Subject: Computers on NBC's Community In-Reply-To: <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <514D0567.4020301@gmail.com> I was watching Community last night and they had a scene with some make believe computers in the library. Looks like a IBM PC keyboard and a Amdek composite monitor. The actual computer looks very VAXStation-like. Any idea what it is ? http://imgur.com/a/gqR6u From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 21:08:24 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 22:08:24 -0400 Subject: Computers on NBC's Community In-Reply-To: <514D0567.4020301@gmail.com> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <514D0567.4020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 9:29 PM, mc68010 wrote: > The actual computer looks very VAXStation-like. Any idea what it is ? Looks an awful like a DECpc. Community does a lot of funny, nerdy computer humor. My favorite episode features them trapped inside an RV rigged to be a cheesy 80's space shuttle simulator. The simulator was sponsored by KFC so the computer interface is the face of Colonel Sanders rendered in Atari 8-bit graphics. The voice even sounded vaguely Votrax-ish. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 21:12:57 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:12:57 -0700 Subject: Computers on NBC's Community In-Reply-To: References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <514D0567.4020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514D0FA9.9050703@gmail.com> On 3/22/2013 7:08 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 9:29 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> The actual computer looks very VAXStation-like. Any idea what it is ? > > Looks an awful like a DECpc. > That's it. I knew I had seen it before and it was something DEC. From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 22 23:40:02 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 05:40:02 +0100 Subject: RK05 drive foam deterioration and replacement In-Reply-To: <201303220027.r2M0QsU2034212@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303220027.r2M0QsU2034212@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <514D3222.5080902@hachti.de> Am 22.03.2013 01:26, schrieb Steve Lafferty: > Some might think all this attention to filtering is overkill but after seeing > the illustration on p. 1-17 of the 1976 RK05 maintenance manual of the 100um > head flying height versus various contaminants, I have been very careful > about dust. Ah, yes... THAT illustration - should be the same as on the disk pack plastic bags... Large and loose particles are mostly kicked off by the heads. With a little noise. Everything that sticks (i.e. the foam) makes a mess... > It's a relief that Philipp has had not-so-bad experiences with > head crashes but I would like to minimize the risks. I did not want to express that I like crashing disks....! My experience is: Crashed disk, much cleaning. Most times even the pack still ok. On the other hand I currently have an RK05 with some head problem: I cleaned the heads as well as possible. But one of the heads doesn't fly well anymore. It collects oxide from the disk. You don't see any defects. But the head has to be replaced. Another myth (spelled correctly?) from the manual is: If the heads *EVER* touch each other, they're gone. I'm very careful with the heads. But sometimes you have a drive where the heads have "fallen out" either onto the pack or onto each other. In those cases I have not seen problems after cleaning. One probably should avoid letting the heads hit each other too hard. Ph :-) -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 22 23:51:30 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 05:51:30 +0100 Subject: XY8E plotter control docs? In-Reply-To: <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <5147D3B1.7060807@hachti.de> <20130323010109.GA6357@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <514D34D2.602@hachti.de> Am 23.03.2013 02:01, schrieb David Gesswein: > Now online > http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=282 Wonderful! Thank you very much! Now I can repair that card.... I know now: It's the first time that I see the XY8E schematics... Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 23 05:31:00 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 03:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1364034660.11224.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > On Mar 22, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote: > > Often enough, especially with governments, the person put in > charge of data preservation is not someone who has the foggiest > idea of how to actually go about it.? They then have to rely on > other people to do it, which is great if you know the right > people and disastrous if you only THINK you know the right > people. these so called consultants have never * used linux/unix or a 1980's or earlier computer system * moved data between these system with sneakernet/null-modem[1] setup > - Dave [1] trying asking at your local computer shop about a Null-modem cable tom sparks From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 02:47:03 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 03:47:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Q-Bus DLV11 M7940 SLU Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Resend without attachments (too big; sorry 'bout that :-<). Anyone interested in the missing attachments please contact me off-list. On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 3:17 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > No PDP-11-eating, please! The BC05C cable, and also the 7008360 cable, > seems to be the key; these are shared across a number of DEC > modules/variants. > > Finding documentation is quite a Where's-Waldo exercise, but a lot of it > is "out there" it seems :->. In my case the attached two items were > extracted from larger, varied, documents. Perhaps they'll be useful for > the next challenged person :->. > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > --f46d0444e88960605904d821f7a5 >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" >> > >> > Can some kind soul point me to the technical documentation for the Q-Bus >> > DLV11 M7940 Serial Line Unit? It has a 2x20 pin-out connector of >> unknown. >> > I gather that it's a pretty common card, so I'd expect the >> documentation to >> > still be "out there" ... like the truth :->. >> > >> > Not the DLV11-J, which is the 4-line card. >> > >> > The only good news is that the MC1488 and MC1489 are nearby, which will >> > help a little. But documentation is *much* better! Probably any of its >> > variants will do just fine (e.g., M7940-YA "M7940 W EXTRA WIRES TO BRING >> > OUT CLOCK & 110/300 SPEED CHG"). >> >> It should be much the same as the pinout for the DL11 (Unibus) seiral >> interface or even the DL8 (Omnibus). It's a very ocommon DEC serial port >> pinout. If there's no documetnaiuton on _any_ of thsoe out there, I will >> eat a PDP11 or something. >> >> One trap for the unwary. These cards, or at least some of them, have >> both RS232 and current loop interfaces on them. The outputs of the 2 >> possible receive buffers (1489 for the RS232, a nopo-isolator bnsed >> circuit for current loop) appear on pins of this conenctor, as does the >> inptu to the UART chip. You have pumper the appropriate pair of pins on >> the connecotr of your cable. if you don't, you'll never receive anything. >> >> -tony >> > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 23 08:49:51 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:49:51 +0100 Subject: Youtube annoyances In-Reply-To: References: <514A5B52.9080108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <514DB2FF.4070108@xs4all.nl> On 21-mrt-2013 22:09, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Meet AdBlock Plus. Enjoy advertisement free YouTube. > > > And if you think the video watching experience is annoying, I suggest > you try and manage a few subscriptions with the *WONDERFULLY* > redesigned "My Subscriptions" page. The fuck was Google thinking > getting rid of the grid view? Also the new channel design... well I > could explain my opinion on it, but I'll let someone else: > http://youtu.be/7lpTxMNIwfk The irony, the first thing I saw was an ad... - MG From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Mar 23 12:29:20 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:29:20 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? Message-ID: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi all, I've got some ugly dirty VAXstation lately, an 3100/M76 and two 3100/M38 (if I remember correctly). I've cleaned the M76 and got it to work. Inside is an 200MB RZ24 Disk ans since I want to boot some Unix this is pretty small. I have a bunch of IBM DCAS3330 4Gig disks that where a good fit I think, but there is a problem with the System disk size on the VS3100.. The limit is coming from using six byte SCSI commands instead of the then byte versions in the boot software. I googled a litte and found this: >:Yes. It's a limitation imposed by the boot ROMs. Just ran into it >:(again!) a few weeks back and DEC reminded me yet again. Some confusion >:exists because -- I think -- some models of the 3100 were >:field-upgradable to have a new ROM set capable of supported >1 GB boot >disk. > > No member of the *VAXstation* 3100 series support system disks larger > than 1.073 gigabytes, and there are no ROM upgrades available. > > There are some members of the *MicroVAX* 3100 series that support or > can have console ROMs upgraded to support system disks larger than > 1.073 gigabytes. I do have KA43 V1.2 Bootroms in the M76, so the question is: Are there newer ROM versions than 1.2 und is there support for larger System disks? Burning Roms is no problem. Does someone have a newer firmware version? I know that I can use the 200MB Disk to boot and use the larger for data, but at least I do have a mechanical problem here, I had to make some plastic Bumpers to mount the additional disk in the VS3100 on the lathe. I would better use the RZ24 in one of my PDP 11's... Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 12:48:55 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 17:48:55 +0000 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 23 March 2013 17:29, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi all, > > I've got some ugly dirty VAXstation lately, an 3100/M76 and two > 3100/M38 (if I remember correctly). > I've cleaned the M76 and got it to work. Inside is an 200MB RZ24 Disk > ans since I want to boot some Unix this is pretty small. > I have a bunch of IBM DCAS3330 4Gig disks that where a good fit I think, > but there is a problem with the System disk size on the VS3100.. > > The limit is coming from using six byte SCSI commands instead of the then > byte versions in the boot software. I googled a litte and found this: > >>:Yes. It's a limitation imposed by the boot ROMs. Just ran into it >>:(again!) a few weeks back and DEC reminded me yet again. Some confusion >>:exists because -- I think -- some models of the 3100 were >>:field-upgradable to have a new ROM set capable of supported >1 GB boot >>disk. >> >> No member of the *VAXstation* 3100 series support system disks larger >> than 1.073 gigabytes, and there are no ROM upgrades available. >> >> There are some members of the *MicroVAX* 3100 series that support or >> can have console ROMs upgraded to support system disks larger than >> 1.073 gigabytes. > > I do have KA43 V1.2 Bootroms in the M76, so the question is: > > Are there newer ROM versions than 1.2 und is there support for larger > System disks? Burning Roms is no problem. Does someone have a newer > firmware version? > > I know that I can use the 200MB Disk to boot and use the larger for data, > but at least I do have a mechanical problem here, I had to make some > plastic Bumpers to mount the additional disk in the VS3100 on the lathe. > I would better use the RZ24 in one of my PDP 11's... I think that I have a spare 1GB SCSI disk, maybe two. Free for the cost of postage. Shouldn't be too much from UK?DE, if I use surface post. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Mar 23 13:28:54 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:28:54 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130323182854.GA70643@beast.freibergnet.de> Liam Proven wrote: > On 23 March 2013 17:29, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've got some ugly dirty VAXstation lately, an 3100/M76 and two > > 3100/M38 (if I remember correctly). > > I've cleaned the M76 and got it to work. Inside is an 200MB RZ24 Disk > > ans since I want to boot some Unix this is pretty small. > > I have a bunch of IBM DCAS3330 4Gig disks that where a good fit I think, > > but there is a problem with the System disk size on the VS3100.. > > > > The limit is coming from using six byte SCSI commands instead of the then > > byte versions in the boot software. I googled a litte and found this: > > > >>:Yes. It's a limitation imposed by the boot ROMs. Just ran into it > >>:(again!) a few weeks back and DEC reminded me yet again. Some confusion > >>:exists because -- I think -- some models of the 3100 were > >>:field-upgradable to have a new ROM set capable of supported >1 GB boot > >>disk. > >> > >> No member of the *VAXstation* 3100 series support system disks larger > >> than 1.073 gigabytes, and there are no ROM upgrades available. > >> > >> There are some members of the *MicroVAX* 3100 series that support or > >> can have console ROMs upgraded to support system disks larger than > >> 1.073 gigabytes. > > > > I do have KA43 V1.2 Bootroms in the M76, so the question is: > > > > Are there newer ROM versions than 1.2 und is there support for larger > > System disks? Burning Roms is no problem. Does someone have a newer > > firmware version? > > > > I know that I can use the 200MB Disk to boot and use the larger for data, > > but at least I do have a mechanical problem here, I had to make some > > plastic Bumpers to mount the additional disk in the VS3100 on the lathe. > > I would better use the RZ24 in one of my PDP 11's... > > I think that I have a spare 1GB SCSI disk, maybe two. Free for the > cost of postage. Shouldn't be too much from UK???DE, if I use surface > post. > > -- > Liam Proven ??? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ??? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ??? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ??? Cell: +44 7939-087884 Yes Liam, From UK to germany it is doable, I'll happily pay for the shipping. Please drop me a mail with payment instructions, Paypal? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Mar 23 14:06:24 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:06:24 -0000 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <8407E08123AC4BD389C39A8503D2FD8A@ANTONIOPC> Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] wrote: > I do have KA43 V1.2 Bootroms in the M76, so the question is: > > Are there newer ROM versions than 1.2 und is there support > for larger System disks? Burning Roms is no problem. Does > someone have a newer firmware version? I do not know whether V1.2 is the latest or not but I do know that I've never heard of boot ROMs for any VAXstation 3100 that support greater than 1.073GB boot disks for OpenVMS. (For Unix-like Oses then I think you can partition the disk and all will be well ... it's only the boot process that uses the console disk drivers). Antonio From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Mar 23 14:25:36 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 20:25:36 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <8407E08123AC4BD389C39A8503D2FD8A@ANTONIOPC> References: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> <8407E08123AC4BD389C39A8503D2FD8A@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <20130323192536.GB70643@beast.freibergnet.de> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] wrote: > > I do have KA43 V1.2 Bootroms in the M76, so the question is: > > > > Are there newer ROM versions than 1.2 und is there support > > for larger System disks? Burning Roms is no problem. Does > > someone have a newer firmware version? > > I do not know whether V1.2 is the latest or not but I do know that > I've never heard of boot ROMs for any VAXstation 3100 that support > greater than 1.073GB boot disks for OpenVMS. (For Unix-like Oses then > I think you can partition the disk and all will be well ... it's only > the boot process that uses the console disk drivers). > > Antonio > Hmm, I've read this also somewhere before, but at least with the IBM disk I get two question marks after starting the console code for the SCSI Bus A. It's possible that I have to disable the parity, or the disk is identifying itself with more than 7 Characters... OpenBSD is currently installing (flawlessly so far) but I think I'll know in approx an half hour if I can boot the installed OS. OpenBSD has sized the a partition with 900Mbytes so all the needed files for booting should be below 1 GB. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 23 14:31:03 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:31:03 -0500 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> >Mouse wrote: >>I do agree that current DVD players are still able to read the data >>from any original DVD media burned when they first became available. >> >Were the first DVDs burned? I've always assumed they were pressed, >more or less like CDs. Am I wrong? > Burned or pressed, the DVD drive seems to read the DVD equally well. What about the physical properties of the media? I tend to assume that the media of a CD is different from the media for a CD. Does anyone have the physical specifications? Since a DVD drive can read both a CD and a DVD (as well as, for many drives, but not all) burn both a CD and a DVD, the media can't be that different. However, since my DVD drive is able to distinguish between a DVD blank and a CD blank, I assume that the media must be somewhat different. The file structure is probably the most important aspect. Do a DVD and a CD have essentially the same file structure? Since the DVD typically holds ten times the storage capacity as a CD, a 32 bit file structure would seem just about correct for the file structure for both the CD and the DVD. At one point, I burned a CD with both a CD file structure starting at CD sector 16 and an RT-11 file structure starting at CD sector zero. Where the RT-11 partitions started (every 16384 sectors of 2048 bytes or 65536 blocks of 512 bytes), I placed spacer files with originally all zeros and filled in the RT-11 file structures after the CD was burned with the CD file structure and converted to an ISO image on the hard drive. It took a couple of attempts to figure out everything, but after converting the first CD image to an ISO file, I used RT-11 to locate all the files from the CD. The first RT-11 file became the file structure of the CD. As for all types of storage, the CD and now the DVD, seems to be about the most stable and unchanging of all storage types. However, I understand that many current PCs these days no longer have DVD drives. Is that the trend? Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 23 14:44:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130323124234.O74842@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Since a DVD drive can read both a CD and a DVD (as well > as, for many drives, but not all) burn both a CD and a DVD, > the media can't be that different. However, since my DVD > drive is able to distinguish between a DVD blank and a CD > blank, I assume that the media must be somewhat different. Is there some info pre-recorded? From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 15:02:02 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 20:02:02 +0000 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Message-ID: <306206539-1364068921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1610553286-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think the filesystem format is just called iso 9660. I believe the writer reads the info on the inner plastic and gets the media type since not only does it know the difference in size but it also reads the media speed rating to know not to burn at a higher than x speed (unless the user overrides that setting). ------Original Message------ From: Fred Cisin Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage Sent: Mar 23, 2013 2:44 PM On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Since a DVD drive can read both a CD and a DVD (as well > as, for many drives, but not all) burn both a CD and a DVD, > the media can't be that different. However, since my DVD > drive is able to distinguish between a DVD blank and a CD > blank, I assume that the media must be somewhat different. Is there some info pre-recorded? From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 15:57:38 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 16:57:38 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> Message-ID: <06D5BC9B-EA73-4E56-8270-28F5AC078371@gmail.com> On Mar 23, 2013, at 15:31, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Mouse wrote: > >>> I do agree that current DVD players are still able to read the data >>> from any original DVD media burned when they first became available. >> Were the first DVDs burned? I've always assumed they were pressed, >> more or less like CDs. Am I wrong? > Burned or pressed, the DVD drive seems to read the DVD > equally well. > > What about the physical properties of the media? I tend to > assume that the media of a CD is different from the media > for a CD. Does anyone have the physical specifications? For a mass-production DVD or CD, it's just a flat layer of aluminum between two polycarbonate sides. The aluminum takes an impression from the master before the very thin top layer is added. I don't know what the second layer of a dual-layer DVD is. I imagine the Internet does, though. > Since a DVD drive can read both a CD and a DVD (as well > as, for many drives, but not all) burn both a CD and a DVD, > the media can't be that different. However, since my DVD > drive is able to distinguish between a DVD blank and a CD > blank, I assume that the media must be somewhat different. The DVD has a finer pitch in both track width and bit spacing (not unlike a high-density floppy). My assumption is that the data is self-clocking and that the DVD drive will read both just fine to begin with, but that the disc header tells it what kind of disc it is (much like the header tells a CD/DVD burner what kind of media a writable disc is so it can determine the capacity and burn timing strategy). I don't think the laser has the ability to determine different types of media on its own; the receiver generally just sees ones and zeroes (and if you have a drive that wasn't meant to be used with writable discs, or has been intentionally tuned to work poorly with them, like the PlayStation or the original XBox, it doesn't even see those so well). > The file structure is probably the most important aspect. Do > a DVD and a CD have essentially the same file structure? Since > the DVD typically holds ten times the storage capacity as a CD, > a 32 bit file structure would seem just about correct for the file > structure for both the CD and the DVD. ISO9660 is the standard for CD filesystems, though its limitations often force the use of extensions to get useful behavior out of it (long file names, more hierarchy, etc.). Early Mac CDs were just HFS volumes, but ISO9660 is fairly standard for OS X. I seem to recall that the VMS distribution CDs are just Files-11 volumes. Audio CDs have their own format ("Red Book", named after the standards document itself), which is a simple TOC followed by raw audio tracks (with forward error correction, of course). You can put any filesystem you'd like on a CD/DVD (for example, UDF was a promising favorite for DVDs, since it has fewer limitations than stock ISO9660), you just have to have something that can read it. Further complicating matters is the fact that lots of consumer drives don't behave well with stuff that's perfectly standard, but not common outside of the PC world. For example, lots of VAXen don't like to boot off SCSI CD drives that won't put out 512-byte blocks, but there are plenty of drives like that out there because most common CD formats use 2k or 4k blocks (or 2k plus a bit for the expansion due to the FEC). > At one point, I burned a CD with both a CD file structure starting > at CD sector 16 and an RT-11 file structure starting at CD sector > zero. Where the RT-11 partitions started (every 16384 sectors > of 2048 bytes or 65536 blocks of 512 bytes), I placed spacer > files with originally all zeros and filled in the RT-11 file structures > after the CD was burned with the CD file structure and converted > to an ISO image on the hard drive. It took a couple of attempts > to figure out everything, but after converting the first CD image to > an ISO file, I used RT-11 to locate all the files from the CD. The > first RT-11 file became the file structure of the CD. > > As for all types of storage, the CD and now the DVD, seems to be > about the most stable and unchanging of all storage types. However, > I understand that many current PCs these days no longer have DVD > drives. Is that the trend? It's getting there. Just like floppies. Like floppy drives, though, external ones will probably be available for a long time (at least for those of us willing to deal with USB or whatever comes after). - Dave From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Mar 23 16:20:44 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 22:20:44 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <20130323192536.GB70643@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> <8407E08123AC4BD389C39A8503D2FD8A@ANTONIOPC> <20130323192536.GB70643@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130323212044.GB85666@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] wrote: > > > I do have KA43 V1.2 Bootroms in the M76, so the question is: > > > > > > Are there newer ROM versions than 1.2 und is there support > > > for larger System disks? Burning Roms is no problem. Does > > > someone have a newer firmware version? > > > > I do not know whether V1.2 is the latest or not but I do know that > > I've never heard of boot ROMs for any VAXstation 3100 that support > > greater than 1.073GB boot disks for OpenVMS. (For Unix-like Oses then > > I think you can partition the disk and all will be well ... it's only > > the boot process that uses the console disk drivers). > > > > Antonio > > > > Hmm, I've read this also somewhere before, but at least with the IBM disk > I get two question marks after starting the console code for the SCSI Bus > A. > It's possible that I have to disable the parity, or the disk is identifying > itself with more than 7 Characters... > > OpenBSD is currently installing (flawlessly so far) but I think I'll know > in approx an half hour if I can boot the installed OS. > OpenBSD has sized the a partition with 900Mbytes so all the needed files > for booting should be below 1 GB. > > Regards, > > Holm Hmm, weird results. I can netboot the openbsd kernel with included ramdisk, look at the installed disk and reboot from the disk, all fine. I can hdo a shutdown with halt and a boot dka400, this boots the OpenBSD from the IBM Disk. But I can't cold boot from the disk after power up... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 23 16:51:17 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 17:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201303232151.RAA01093@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The file structure is probably the most important aspect. Do a DVD > and a CD have essentially the same file structure? Yes and no. DVDs, and CDs, do not have file structure per se. They are very much like ordinary disk drives in that respect - while they do have a little more structure (they have a rudimentary partitioning scheme, "tracks", which exists on ordinary disks only by software convention but on CDs and presumably DVDs is actually part of the medium format), they are basically just big arrays of blocks. (The blocks on a CD are 2K, as opposed to most disk drives' half-K blocks, but compared to the similarities that's a trivial difference.) File structure is most often, probably, ISO 9660, usually (as someone else noted) with extensions for things like sane filenames. But there is nothing about a CD or DVD that compels, nor even prefers, that; if you want to, you can build a FAT32 image, or an FFS image, or whatever takes your fancy, and burn it to a data track. 9660 is optimized for read-only (and write-once) media, but that's really its major advantage for the purpose (in isolation from things like ubiquity of software support, which is mostly a question of history). > As for all types of storage, the CD and now the DVD, seems to be > about the most stable and unchanging of all storage types. I think printed paper has it beat, provided you use real ink (rather than, say, typical laser-printer toner). And, of course, good-quality paper, and designed-for-long-term storage conditions (inert atmosphere and the like). The major advantages I see of CDs and DVDs are (1) storage density (bits per, eg, cubic inch) and (2) near-term ease of getting the information back into a computer. I actually think clay tablets baked in a building fire are about the longest-lasting data storage medium we know of at this point. But, compared to the age of the most durable storage media (like those clay tablets), actually thinking about data storage in terms longer than a century or two is a recent innovation; we can't really do more than guess what various media lifetimes will be. Even if they are relatively educated guesses in many cases.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 23 17:07:42 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303232151.RAA01093@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> <201303232151.RAA01093@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130323150109.W74842@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Mouse wrote: > I actually think clay tablets baked in a building fire are about the > longest-lasting data storage medium we know of at this point. But, > compared to the age of the most durable storage media (like those clay > tablets), actually thinking about data storage in terms longer than a > century or two is a recent innovation; we can't really do more than > guess what various media lifetimes will be. Even if they are > relatively educated guesses in many cases.... Chiseled stone has clay well beat. It can handle more abuse - ask Moses why 10 instead of 15. But media life won't help without preserved info about content. Look how long it took to decipher hieroglyphics (they got lucky with a multi-language tablet ("Rosetta stone") But how to read Quipos (sp?) is lost. Stonehenge hasn't been figured out. Microsoft doesn't even remember that GW-BASIC stood for "Gee Whiz"! Who remembers why the .EXE file structure used "MZ" as its flag value? If it was, indeed "Mark Zbikowski", then he did NOT succeed in immortality. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sat Mar 23 10:05:43 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 16:05:43 +0100 Subject: Get a board Xerox 820-II working fine Message-ID: <006c01ce27d7$e5184cf0$af48e6d0$@lazzerini@email.it> Hello everyone, I got a board Xerox 820-II without any other components and without disk controller. After changing the video sync and created a composite video on video i have the correct prompt. I made a keyboard interface to convert a PS2 keyboard in parallel with the same schematic that works well with my Ferguson Bigboard I and the other card Xerox 820-I. I saw that on the xerox 820-II board there are almost 2 ICs with the name Signetics 3341PC (U102 and U101) that are between the U65 (system and Keyboard PIO) and the 72LS74 (U96 and U97) that come to connect to the keyboard input (see sheet 7 of thsi schematic http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/820-II/Xerox820-II_Schematics.p df). I come to requests: 1) The keyboard does not write. I read on a post that I can not find anymore that without the inclusion of the disk controller card into its slot the keyboard would not write. Perhaps because there is not anymore the continuity of the chain interrupt (see at the bottom of sheet 8 close to U65 into this schematic http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/820-II/Xerox820-II_Schematics.p df )? 2) If i not find the disk controller card I was thinking about to self-build it on a bareboard hoping that the diagram at the bottom of the last pages at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/820/Xerox820_ServiceMan.pdf is accurate. Where can I find a card edge connector male 72-pin 2.54mm pitch? 3) You also have some suggestions for me? Thanks so much Enrico - Pisa - (Italy) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 23 18:19:55 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:19:55 -0500 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <514E389B.1000705@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Perhaps DVD's will be one of the very few hardware media which will >>>survive much longer than usual. But more than even 100 years seems >>>entirely unlikely. >>> >>> >>Yeah. Compare today to 1913.... >> >punch cards have held up well > The last time I used punch cards was around 1980. In school around 1966,I had a FORTRAN IV (IBM 7094) program of about 2000 cards. The compiled card deck was about 400 cards which was quite reasonable. Over the years, I tried to save programs from both years, but although I had a dry, cool storage, they started to warp quit substantially. Since I have nor seen any card readers for over 20 years, there did not seem to be much of an alternative. As others have noted, the oldest program was saved on paper. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 23 18:21:07 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:21:07 -0500 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514C8C47.4020503@sydex.com> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> <514C8C47.4020503@sydex.com> Message-ID: <514E38E3.6070907@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: > When I was fairly new at the CD-R thing, I began purchasing what was > then known as Mitsui Gold media, which claimed a lifetime of 300 > years. I can still read what I wrote then just fine--but so can I > also read the stuff written on bargain-basement "blue" CD-Rs. How old are CD's at this point? 25 years seems about right. > I got an 8" floppy in yesterday from a machine shop operation who > needed their software rescued. This was Maxell "R-V" floppies; > something like "Reliable and Verified". I also rescued some 8" floppy files about 15 years ago. I can't actually remember, but I think I might have had to completely discard the jacket. Of course, since that was a rescue and the files ended up being returned by e-mail, the media was no longer important. Has anyone else read floppy media sans jacket? > This makes me wonder how many years a "1000 year" CD-R will have on it > before the substrate disintegrates, rendering the medium unreadable... I have DVD backups from 10 years ago, but I am confident that DVD backups exist that are much older. 10 years ago, a DVD burner was still rather expensive, so I shared one since I only burned a backup every four months. Jerome Fine From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 23 18:34:23 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:34:23 -0400 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <20130306151422.O41499@shell.lmi.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> <20130306151422.O41499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <514E3BFF.7040909@snarc.net> Update from the thread earlier this month... Bankrate.com finally deleted their statement that "the excitement" of high prices on vintage Apple gear is what "led to" the formation of MARCH. They told me their reference to a 1998 PC is a "a joke" and that readers will understand. I disagree. http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investment.aspx#slide=6 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 23 18:43:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <20130323150109.W74842@shell.lmi.net> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> <201303232151.RAA01093@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130323150109.W74842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201303232343.TAA01397@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > But media life won't help without preserved info about content. Look > how long it took to decipher hieroglyphics (they got lucky with a > multi-language tablet ("Rosetta stone") Yeah. Linear B. The Voynich manuscript. The Beale ciphers. Etc. Note that the only one of those three that's been cracked is also the only one that we're reasonably certain was not created with content conealment as a goal. (Of course, with a sample set this small, that could well mean nothing.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 23 18:48:05 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:48:05 -0400 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> <514C8C47.4020503@sydex.com> <514E38E3.6070907@compsys.to> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome H. Fine" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 7:21 PM Subject: Re: OT: 1000 year DVD storage >>> This makes me wonder how many years a "1000 year" CD-R will have on it >> before the substrate disintegrates, rendering the medium unreadable... > > I have DVD backups from 10 years ago, but I am confident > that DVD backups exist that are much older. 10 years ago, > a DVD burner was still rather expensive, so I shared one > since I only burned a backup every four months. > > Jerome Fine I burned CDs back when the burners were $1200 and the media was $7+ a piece in bulk. The quality of blanks seems to have gone down quite a bit (faster then price). I still have 15+ year old CDR that work fine, but I don't think new media will last that long (kind of miss the blue dye blanks). DVD recordable media seems to leave a lot to be desired in quality right out of the gate. Don't have a blue-ray burner, how are those? From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 18:52:50 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 23:52:50 +0000 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <514E3BFF.7040909@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> <20130306151422.O41499@shell.lmi.net> <514E3BFF.7040909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1585077287-1364082768-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961886168-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Most journalism is these days isn't it? Hilarious one. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:34:23 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. Update from the thread earlier this month... Bankrate.com finally deleted their statement that "the excitement" of high prices on vintage Apple gear is what "led to" the formation of MARCH. They told me their reference to a 1998 PC is a "a joke" and that readers will understand. I disagree. http://www.bankrate.com/lite/smart-spending/collecting-items-as-an-investment.aspx#slide=6 From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 23 19:06:42 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 20:06:42 -0400 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <1585077287-1364082768-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961886168-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <513782C4.7010206@snarc.net> <51378DB3.60306@snarc.net> <5137C5F1.5050308@snarc.net> <20130306151422.O41499@shell.lmi.net> <514E3BFF.7040909@snarc.net> <1585077287-1364082768-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961886168-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <514E4392.7040500@snarc.net> > Most journalism is these days isn't it? Hilarious one. I strongly disagree, because I too am a journalist, but that's off-topic for this list. Let us not cause another rant by certain people. :) From tomjoyce at lavabit.com Sat Mar 23 19:43:59 2013 From: tomjoyce at lavabit.com (Tom Joyce) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 20:43:59 -0400 Subject: Wanted: VT101 compatible keyboard. Message-ID: <514E4C4F.3040803@lavabit.com> Hello all! I have recently added a DEC VT101 to my collection. Only problem is, it came with no keyboard. The way I understand it, any VT10x keyboard will work with it. So, does anyone have an extra that they would be willing to part with? Thanks a lot! -- Tom. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 23 20:24:56 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:24:56 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <201303232343.TAA01397@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <514E02F7.2080303@compsys.to> <201303232151.RAA01093@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130323150109.W74842@shell.lmi.net> <201303232343.TAA01397@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <514E55E8.8070908@sydex.com> > But media life won't help without preserved info about content. Look > how long it took to decipher hieroglyphics (they got lucky with a > multi-language tablet ("Rosetta stone") ...and all because Cleopatra was the first one of the Ptolemaic dynasty (and almost the last of the dynasty) who could write and speak Egyptian. Before her, the Ptolomeys spoke Macedonian. Ancient Egypt was largely ruled by non-Egyptians. I've long thought it odd that today we take the lives and artifacts of the rulers as being "Egyptian culture". Addressing Fred's question is "who will care what the MZ at the front of an .EXE file will signify in even 100 years?" I remember all sorts of stuff that seemed at the time useful and important. Mostly nobody cares today. Do you really think that we'll have discrete things called "executable files" that are prepared by a process called "compiling" or "assembling"? Will anyone even think that VisiCalc was a major piece of software? Immortality is a fleeting thing. --Chuck From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sat Mar 23 18:08:38 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 23:08:38 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? Message-ID: <01ORMWSPBK4I006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > OpenBSD is currently installing (flawlessly so far) but I think I'll know > in approx an half hour if I can boot the installed OS. > OpenBSD has sized the a partition with 900Mbytes so all the needed files > for booting should be below 1 GB. > The other thing you have to worry about is dumping. VMS uses the console ROM routines to write system dumps and these can end up in the wrong place on disks larger than 1GB on VS3100s. I don't know what unix does but if it has a dumpfile, it would be good to keep it below the 1 GB line also. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 24 03:26:52 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:26:52 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <20130323192536.GB70643@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130323172920.GA68332@beast.freibergnet.de> <8407E08123AC4BD389C39A8503D2FD8A@ANTONIOPC> <20130323192536.GB70643@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130324092652.3dce279356e783bed0c25733@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 20:25:36 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hmm, I've read this also somewhere before, but at least with the IBM disk > I get two question marks after starting the console code for the SCSI Bus > A. > It's possible that I have to disable the parity, or the disk is identifying > itself with more than 7 Characters... I suspect somthing like this. I had strange problems like yours with IBM disks too. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Mar 24 05:09:42 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:09:42 -0000 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <20130323212044.GB85666@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] wrote: > Hmm, weird results. > > I can netboot the openbsd kernel with included ramdisk, look > at the installed disk and reboot from the disk, all fine. I > can hdo a shutdown with halt and a boot dka400, this boots > the OpenBSD from the IBM Disk. But I can't cold boot from the disk > after power up... If you mean that you have the console set to boot on power up and it won't do that, then that's probably because the console detected an error of some sort. Since it seems that the disk works (since you can boot it when the console doesn't get in the way - and perhaps when you issue a B command at the console?) then I guess that your errors on SCSI A are the issue. I *think* that the wiring inside the M76 is such that there are two SCSI buses: the internal one and the external one. If you do not have a terminator on the external bus then that may cause an error and that may cause the power-on boot to fail. This is just a guess though. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Sun Mar 24 05:38:16 2013 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:38:16 +0000 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project Message-ID: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> I've been working on an IBM Selectric typewriter which I bought earlier in the year. It is the I/O Selectric type 735 which differs from a normal Selectric in having the solenoids and switches on it to allow it to be used as a printer and keyboard. When I got it the motor wouldn't run, and the mechanism was jammed. The motor problem was its thermal trip, which is meant to be the resettable type, so I replaced that. I gave the whole thing a clean with degreaser, which freed up the mechanicals, then oiled and greased it. It then worked happily as a typewriter. I have made a small interface, based on an Arduino Mega 2560, which provides a serial port. Currently this only supports printing, but will be extended to include the keyboard. It uses almost all the digital I/O on the Mega (15 solenoids, 27 contacts.) There are still some adjustments to be done, and I am awaiting a set of Bristol Wrenches (Keys) so I can safely do these. I have tried using Torx and Allen keys, and while they can be made to 'fit', it doesn't seem like a good idea. There are some pictures and videos of the typewriter here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/ You can get the Arduino interface code here: https://github.com/ibm2030/IOSelectric I haven't yet documented the hardware I used for the solenoid drivers, but if anyone is interested I can put some notes together (basically: Arduino output to 2N7000 FET buffer to ITS4140N +48V high-side driver on the output side, and a simple 250R pullup to +5V on the input side.) Manuals here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/typewriter/selectric/ (or other Bitsavers mirrors) Info on the Mega2560 here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardMega2560 -- Lawrence Wilkinsonlawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 pagehttp://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sun Mar 24 07:40:01 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 06:40:01 -0600 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <514EF421.80701@landcomp.net> On 3/24/13 4:38 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I've been working on an IBM Selectric typewriter which I bought earlier > in the year. It is the I/O Selectric type 735 which differs from a > normal Selectric in having the solenoids and switches on it to allow it > to be used as a printer and keyboard. > > When I got it the motor wouldn't run, and the mechanism was jammed. The > motor problem was its thermal trip, which is meant to be the resettable > type, so I replaced that. I gave the whole thing a clean with > degreaser, which freed up the mechanicals, then oiled and greased it. It > then worked happily as a typewriter. > > I have made a small interface, based on an Arduino Mega 2560, which > provides a serial port. Currently this only supports printing, but will > be extended to include the keyboard. It uses almost all the digital I/O > on the Mega (15 solenoids, 27 contacts.) > > There are still some adjustments to be done, and I am awaiting a set of > Bristol Wrenches (Keys) so I can safely do these. I have tried using > Torx and Allen keys, and while they can be made to 'fit', it doesn't > seem like a good idea. > > There are some pictures and videos of the typewriter here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/ > > You can get the Arduino interface code here: > https://github.com/ibm2030/IOSelectric > > I haven't yet documented the hardware I used for the solenoid drivers, > but if anyone is interested I can put some notes together (basically: > Arduino output to 2N7000 FET buffer to ITS4140N +48V high-side driver on > the output side, and a simple 250R pullup to +5V on the input side.) > > Manuals here: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/typewriter/selectric/ > (or other Bitsavers mirrors) > Info on the Mega2560 here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardMega2560 > Wow! What a beast. It's no wonder they commanded such a high price back in the day. Matter of fact, I think a good portion of the selectrics were leased if I remember correctly. Very nice looking machine, even without the cover. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 24 12:28:01 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:28:01 -0400 Subject: VAXStation 3100 M76 Bootroms Disk Size? In-Reply-To: <01ORMWSPBK4I006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01ORMWSPBK4I006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <514F37A1.7090605@neurotica.com> On 03/23/2013 07:08 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> OpenBSD is currently installing (flawlessly so far) but I think I'll know >> in approx an half hour if I can boot the installed OS. >> OpenBSD has sized the a partition with 900Mbytes so all the needed files >> for booting should be below 1 GB. > > The other thing you have to worry about is dumping. VMS uses the console > ROM routines to write system dumps and these can end up in the wrong place > on disks larger than 1GB on VS3100s. I don't know what unix does but if it > has a dumpfile, it would be good to keep it below the 1 GB line also. Most UNIX implementations write dumps to the swap partition, which is then checked for the presence of a dump at boot time before the swap space is enabled for use. I would call it unlikely, but not impossible, for an implementation to use the ROM routines to perform the dump. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 24 12:35:06 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:35:06 -0700 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> On Mar 24, 2013, at 3:38 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I've been working on an IBM Selectric typewriter which I bought earlier in the year. It is the I/O Selectric type 735 which differs from a normal Selectric in having the solenoids and switches on it to allow it to be used as a printer and keyboard. > > When I got it the motor wouldn't run, and the mechanism was jammed. The motor problem was its thermal trip, which is meant to be the resettable type, so I replaced that. I gave the whole thing a clean with degreaser, which freed up the mechanicals, then oiled and greased it. It then worked happily as a typewriter. > > I have made a small interface, based on an Arduino Mega 2560, which provides a serial port. Currently this only supports printing, but will be extended to include the keyboard. It uses almost all the digital I/O on the Mega (15 solenoids, 27 contacts.) > > There are still some adjustments to be done, and I am awaiting a set of Bristol Wrenches (Keys) so I can safely do these. I have tried using Torx and Allen keys, and while they can be made to 'fit', it doesn't seem like a good idea. > > There are some pictures and videos of the typewriter here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/ > > You can get the Arduino interface code here: https://github.com/ibm2030/IOSelectric > > I haven't yet documented the hardware I used for the solenoid drivers, but if anyone is interested I can put some notes together (basically: Arduino output to 2N7000 FET buffer to ITS4140N +48V high-side driver on the output side, and a simple 250R pullup to +5V on the input side.) > > Manuals here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/typewriter/selectric/ > (or other Bitsavers mirrors) > Info on the Mega2560 here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardMega2560 > Very cool! When I was in school (35 years ago) I had an IBM 1052 terminal that I interfaced to an 8080. The issue with the 1052 was that the relays were all 48v so finding drivers was interesting. ;-) It took me a bit of fiddling with the timing to get it to print properly (at 134.5 baud). It sure beat the ASR/KSR-33s that most other folks were using for their terminals just for the "cool" factor! TTFN - Guy From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 13:20:33 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:20:33 -0400 Subject: For free/for sale: 5150/5160 PSU, Apple IIe card Message-ID: <3EB1DC95-528E-457C-9586-0868D0170665@gmail.com> I have two things that may be of interest to list denizens: IBM 5150/5160 power supply (part no. IBM-1501461). Appears to work if given a load, but I don't have a 5150 or an XT to test it with. Dirty, but it worked fine when I pulled it from an XT in about 1996. Free for the price of shipping. Apple IIe LC-PDS card, with breakout cable. I don't seem to be able to find the time to play with this, so I'll sell it for a pittance. Name your price and we'll see if my version of "pittance" lines up with yours. I have several functioning LCIIs as well, one of which I'll throw in free for shipping. Also, those of you who requested 5.25" 1.2M drives from me but haven't given me your address: they are still sitting more or less ready to ship in the basement. I'd like to free up some space for other things. - Dave (off-list replies, please, unless you have reason to spam the list) From steve at tronola.com Sun Mar 24 13:29:06 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:29:06 -0400 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201303241829.r2OITnUl058452@mx1.ezwind.net> Hi Lawrence, Thank you for the interesting pics and videos of the Selectric terminal. Not long ago I tossed an IBM model 50 electronic typewriter, which I had had since 1988. Have felt bad about that ever since. Now I feel worse! :) It wasn't working though, and I didn't know how difficult it would be to convert it into a terminal. By the way, the uneven spacing you were seeing is something that it would do, when the proportional spacing (PS) selector was set wrong. (Unlike many Selectrics, the model 50 did support PS.) Also enjoyed your pages on the IBM 360 model 30. Having just finished reading the excellent book, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems," by Pugh, et al, the additional coverage of the "baby" model really hit the spot. Your VHDL implementation of that machine is truly stunning! All the best, Steve L. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Sun Mar 24 14:27:18 2013 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:27:18 +0000 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> On 24/03/13 17:35, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > When I was in school (35 years ago) I had an IBM 1052 terminal that I > interfaced to an 8080. The issue with the 1052 was that the relays > were all 48v so finding drivers was interesting. ;-) It took me a bit > of fiddling with the timing to get it to print properly (at 134.5 > baud). It sure beat the ASR/KSR-33s that most other folks were using > for their terminals just for the "cool" factor! TTFN - Guy The mechanicals of the 735 and 1052 are basically the same. The 1052 has pin feed, extra switches and things to suit use as a computer console, whereas the 73x are designed for word processing use. The one I got came from such a WP system, though I've no idea where the rest of that system got to. It was a "Kode" system (Calne, Wiltshire, UK) which used paper tape. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph 07841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Sun Mar 24 14:31:11 2013 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:31:11 +0000 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <201303241829.r2OITnUl058452@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303241829.r2OITnUl058452@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <514F547F.9020005@ljw.me.uk> On 24/03/13 18:29, Steve Lafferty wrote: > Hi Lawrence, > > Thank you for the interesting pics and videos of the Selectric terminal. Not long ago I tossed an IBM model 50 electronic typewriter, which I had had since 1988. Have felt bad about that ever since. Now I feel worse! :) It wasn't working though, and I didn't know how difficult it would be to convert it into a terminal. By the way, the uneven spacing you were seeing is something that it would do, when the proportional spacing (PS) selector was set wrong. (Unlike many Selectrics, the model 50 did support PS.) > > Also enjoyed your pages on the IBM 360 model 30. Having just finished reading the excellent book, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems," by Pugh, et al, the additional coverage of the "baby" model really hit the spot. Your VHDL implementation of that machine is truly stunning! > > All the best, > Steve L. > > The ET50 is the same as Carl Claunch has adapted for use as an 1130 console: http://ibm1130.blogspot.co.uk/ and he's doing an equivalent project to mine on his typewriter. In fact his whole project parallels mine, though he is going for the full-size replica approach! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph 07841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 15:06:21 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 20:06:21 +0000 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514F547F.9020005@ljw.me.uk> References: <201303241829.r2OITnUl058452@mx1.ezwind.net> <514F547F.9020005@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <514F5CBD.3000909@gmail.com> On 24/03/2013 19:31, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 24/03/13 18:29, Steve Lafferty wrote: >> Hi Lawrence, >> >> Thank you for the interesting pics and videos of the Selectric >> terminal. Not long ago I tossed an IBM model 50 electronic >> typewriter, which I had had since 1988. Have felt bad about that ever >> since. Now I feel worse! :) It wasn't working though, and I didn't >> know how difficult it would be to convert it into a terminal. By the >> way, the uneven spacing you were seeing is something that it would >> do, when the proportional spacing (PS) selector was set wrong. >> (Unlike many Selectrics, the model 50 did support PS.) >> >> Also enjoyed your pages on the IBM 360 model 30. Having just finished >> reading the excellent book, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems," by >> Pugh, et al, the additional coverage of the "baby" model really hit >> the spot. Your VHDL implementation of that machine is truly stunning! >> >> All the best, >> Steve L. >> >> > The ET50 is the same as Carl Claunch has adapted for use as an 1130 > console: http://ibm1130.blogspot.co.uk/ and he's doing an equivalent > project to mine on his typewriter. In fact his whole project > parallels mine, though he is going for the full-size replica approach! > If any one has one spare, in the UK, I will trade for a Selectric Electronic Composee which seems to only do proportional, unless some one can tell me different... .. mind it would be a shame to butcher it for a console.. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 15:30:44 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:30:44 -0400 Subject: For free/for sale: 5150/5160 PSU, Apple IIe card In-Reply-To: References: <3EB1DC95-528E-457C-9586-0868D0170665@gmail.com> Message-ID: <67D46FA4-EAF9-476E-ADE1-A28F3AA8F587@gmail.com> Of course, I forgot to mention: shipping from Philadelphia, PA, USA (19146). The Apple IIe card may already be claimed. - Dave From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 24 17:15:47 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:15:47 -0700 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <72B44181-C1DC-4D77-9F96-9025EBE8E3F2@shiresoft.com> On Mar 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 24/03/13 17:35, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> When I was in school (35 years ago) I had an IBM 1052 terminal that I interfaced to an 8080. The issue with the 1052 was that the relays were all 48v so finding drivers was interesting. ;-) It took me a bit of fiddling with the timing to get it to print properly (at 134.5 baud). It sure beat the ASR/KSR-33s that most other folks were using for their terminals just for the "cool" factor! TTFN - Guy > > The mechanicals of the 735 and 1052 are basically the same. The 1052 has pin feed, extra switches and things to suit use as a computer console, whereas the 73x are designed for word processing use. The one I got came from such a WP system, though I've no idea where the rest of that system got to. It was a "Kode" system (Calne, Wiltshire, UK) which used paper tape. Is that really true? The 1052 was *very* heavy duty. I think they were similar in the way that the ASR33 and ASR35 were similar. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 24 17:21:09 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:21:09 -0700 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <3E4FDC6B-049E-46DB-B248-E4ED1213DCD8@shiresoft.com> On Mar 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 24/03/13 17:35, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> When I was in school (35 years ago) I had an IBM 1052 terminal that I interfaced to an 8080. The issue with the 1052 was that the relays were all 48v so finding drivers was interesting. ;-) It took me a bit of fiddling with the timing to get it to print properly (at 134.5 baud). It sure beat the ASR/KSR-33s that most other folks were using for their terminals just for the "cool" factor! TTFN - Guy > > The mechanicals of the 735 and 1052 are basically the same. The 1052 has pin feed, extra switches and things to suit use as a computer console, whereas the 73x are designed for word processing use. The one I got came from such a WP system, though I've no idea where the rest of that system got to. It was a "Kode" system (Calne, Wiltshire, UK) which used paper tape. The other thing that was different between them was the keyboard. There was no possibility of a direct linkage between the keyboard and the printer unit. The keyboard required a "reset" signal to unlock it after each key was pressed (possibly with the exception of shift...it's been too long...I can't remember that aspect of it anymore). TTFN - Guy From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Mar 24 22:26:59 2013 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:26:59 -0500 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <514FC403.4000903@tx.rr.com> On 3/24/2013 5:38 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I've been working on an IBM Selectric typewriter which I bought earlier > in the year. It is the I/O Selectric type 735 which differs from a > normal Selectric in having the solenoids and switches on it to allow it > to be used as a printer and keyboard. > Thanks for that; it really brings back some fond memories. I'm not sure it was exactly that model, but we had one very similar as the "console interface" attached to an SDS-910 back in the late 1960's. It might have been the pin feed model someone else mentioned. The ones we shipped to the field held up fine, but the few that we kept in the test department really got beat up because we printed so much of what we read from the attached OCR system. Seems like we had to have the IBM repair guy out to fix one of them every week or so. -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 24 23:00:57 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 00:00:57 -0400 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <514FCBF9.8050803@neurotica.com> Very, VERY nice work! -Dave On 03/24/2013 06:38 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I've been working on an IBM Selectric typewriter which I bought earlier in > the year. It is the I/O Selectric type 735 which differs from a normal > Selectric in having the solenoids and switches on it to allow it to be used > as a printer and keyboard. > > When I got it the motor wouldn't run, and the mechanism was jammed. The motor > problem was its thermal trip, which is meant to be the resettable type, so I > replaced that. I gave the whole thing a clean with degreaser, which freed up > the mechanicals, then oiled and greased it. It then worked happily as a > typewriter. > > I have made a small interface, based on an Arduino Mega 2560, which provides > a serial port. Currently this only supports printing, but will be extended > to include the keyboard. It uses almost all the digital I/O on the Mega (15 > solenoids, 27 contacts.) > > There are still some adjustments to be done, and I am awaiting a set of > Bristol Wrenches (Keys) so I can safely do these. I have tried using Torx > and Allen keys, and while they can be made to 'fit', it doesn't seem like a > good idea. > > There are some pictures and videos of the typewriter here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/ > > You can get the Arduino interface code here: > https://github.com/ibm2030/IOSelectric > > I haven't yet documented the hardware I used for the solenoid drivers, but if > anyone is interested I can put some notes together (basically: Arduino output > to 2N7000 FET buffer to ITS4140N +48V high-side driver on the output side, > and a simple 250R pullup to +5V on the input side.) > > Manuals here: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/typewriter/selectric/ > (or other Bitsavers mirrors) > Info on the Mega2560 here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardMega2560 > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 25 01:11:30 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 23:11:30 -0700 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <514FC403.4000903@tx.rr.com> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> <514FC403.4000903@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <514FEA92.6030309@sydex.com> On 03/24/2013 08:26 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Thanks for that; it really brings back some fond memories. I'm not sure > it was exactly that model, but we had one very similar as the "console > interface" attached to an SDS-910 back in the late 1960's. It might > have been the pin feed model someone else mentioned. The ones we > shipped to the field held up fine, but the few that we kept in the test > department really got beat up because we printed so much of what we read > from the attached OCR system. Seems like we had to have the IBM repair > guy out to fix one of them every week or so. Also used on various S/360 models. The keyboard stayed locked as long as the multiplexor channel was busy---but then, I've mentioned the fun of chaining CCWs to make sure that the uppity operator will never be able to type anything... :) --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 07:48:34 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:48:34 +0000 Subject: Science! (With VAXen) Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/25/geeks_guide_jodrell_bank/ ... with mention of some retrocomputing elements, too... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/25/geeks_guide_jodrell_bank/ From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 25 09:43:57 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 10:43:57 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Failure Notice In-Reply-To: <514cd59f.d121320a.191c.2894SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <514cd59f.d121320a.191c.2894SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <515062AD.5030500@sbcglobal.net> Mouse --- Is all okay with your servers? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Failure Notice Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 22:00:25 -0000 From: MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com To: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address. : Mail server for "rodents-montreal.org" unreachable for too long --- Below this line is a copy of the message. Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2013 21:58:23 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.207] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2013 21:58:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2013 21:58:23 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sbcglobal.net; s=s1024; t=1363903103; bh=0Jsqb4xukiAvB6ZgvReWY1rhyHbsBaeuEZBC9tsQpP4=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=NgGLDupFXpIBY50EvcRYAV7NPtRAeA5NtJLgZHv+5FkgRJLGk9S/UwHtXS0jqMXY+NEuC8nibCDirbtAVPpGbFikgTpiBzzNuUnXI3++A+QCzaqJwhGGCVZx6yaXzk+rSqEQuliCGaSybthKa+GlvdwcAy/1SczPm/CvlIUQOJg= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 467025.55886.bm at smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: joYMzwUVM1m1e7AXJJRIE4ZEmUlBGBS_0IW3wJOgrSS1PC4 QEOgOvwgzDZIkfTXPLnbkvY3BG5VaOA8thWslul6X7f1Eis4rLb2pRBkybmg O0cSbWBzgD9eWvWz2ySPXZMXledO2B6rawlg7LGPm268r_lSjJ25CTN2Nt45 xVBpBbxnr_.nP.G25mkI99.nUVABzbiiR2zxagPfJUHFPsp5g5JfVGc1oeN1 _FkbnTL3m1FsagNMq2c86ARuFdNIeSrOAI._RwmssLc7c5VxdbuIPzzf1lIH nKaEMdUgG.UClAxIc3xkU0t6OcZT5jDV2xQoKzLd2FdLpYlOqjQ3Uf8bLFo6 zdjReIrad12enCvPEQCIOh7R2T23GtIepFk1IxNiglwXYzeTudawnDa1VIvx hlXglrHOjMGI3QhmjbGW2e5HIUCekeUQbRl3cYY6lyvImV6CXmj.4oWcyzjL YWJyJ5VSyVUurxwmzM3Wa_gNRiyhYHmaYheVCThj4c0e8g2OWlh3relXnxU7 JNa7kioxwbO7p5eV5AI2oSzG9q4VX5o8DGwqZPLV5wbwoqJCcGEgMfXlZ0Xm NFOYte.Wf_.Ffk9nqtXXbk2H3OXBMJ.7FW9O31Ac- X-Yahoo-SMTP: 1vdsNA6swBDwgbjTvnGKq3DnmhPsZKBlBgRRz0jp5jZHz6WjPA-- X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.1.70] (woyciesjes at 75.37.158.43 with plain) by smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2013 14:58:23 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <514B8281.1020802 at sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:58:25 -0400 From: Dave Woyciesjes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mouse Subject: Re: I'm baack... References: <514B4AF6.1070207 at sbcglobal.net> <201303212143.RAA02946 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> In-Reply-To: <201303212143.RAA02946 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/21/2013 5:43 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Well, it's been about a 3 year hiatus from the list for me... >> How many of the old farts & curmudgeons are still around? ;) > Not sure I count, though I have been feeling increasingly curmudgeonly > in recent years. But I'm still here. Good to see. Yeah, I think I recall you being a touch curmudgeonly occasionally. ;) >> One burning question, has the list's definition of a classic computer >> been updated from the 10 year rule? > I don't recall seeing the question discussed either way recently. > That's a surprise. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 09:47:11 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:47:11 -0500 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5150636F.7000607@gmail.com> On 03/06/2013 01:11 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Soooo, a bunch of people will see the Fox version and get the idea > that Pentium Windows 98 computers are ** L@@K R at RE !! and worth BIG BUCKS > over on eBay. Oh, joy. I'm OK with that, maybe people will start collecting crappy PCs and stop collecting the stuff that I do like ;-) From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 10:59:32 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:59:32 -0400 Subject: Oy vey! Gross mischaracterizations of our hobby. In-Reply-To: References: <5136EC17.7050704@snarc.net> <5136ffb1.c5b5320a.24b1.ffff8d73@mx.google.com> <5137772D.6040303@neurotica.com> <17283782-EF0E-438E-8453-1DD69627B618@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6FCB9877-8C8F-4E54-9232-9C438EC2D32F@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2013, at 1:54 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, David Riley wrote: > >> On that note, if anyone's looking to part with a parts donor machine, >> I'll gladly pay shipping plus a nominal fee. :-) > > I have several C64s in fair to decent condition which had their SIDs extracted. If you want one or more I can help you. SIDs can be simulated with a microcontroller-based solution called a "SwinSID" Thought I responded to this, but I guess not. My C64 has a probably-working SID, so I'm sure I could cobble at least a functional machine out of the two and keep the important parts spare. How much are you asking for one? Even just the board would be OK if you have that (and it would almost certainly be easier to ship). - Dave From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Mar 25 11:34:40 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:34:40 -0400 Subject: Mid-Atlantic Retro Open House Weekend - Swap and Workshop 5/18-19/13 Message-ID: <1085b33f$4ec1b8c0$6182c413$@com> As you know VCF E was cancelled this year, but now that power will be available we're going to hold an "open house" May 18th and 19th. WHERE: InfoAge Science Center (infoage.org) in Wall Township New Jersey 9032-A (same as last VCF Exhibit room) WHEN: May 18th 9AM through May 19th until ?? WHAT: A combo-swap meet and workshop (a.k.a. vintage computing hackfest) Half the room will be tables for working on computers. Half the room will be for consignment. We'll charge $5 if someone is merely attending, or $10 if they're bringing something to sell or repair. We'll also take 10% of sales as a consignment fee. (This income is for the club's general budget, not for food.) We will NOT do is let strangers drop off computers for us to repair. This isn't free service weekend. We will expect the MARCH veterans to serve at least some of their time during the weekend as mentors. So basically it's just like our standard work weekends, except it'll be open for outsiders to join in, and we'll formalize the "stuff available" tables so the club makes some money. OMARC's hamfest is May 18, down the street at the TIROS dish campus, from 7-11am. Our event will start at 9am. Both events will refer people to other. As at our past work weekends, this also isn't a party. we'll make some plans for light meals, but food/drink is strongly discouraged in repair/sales tables. Also discouraged are people who attend just to hang out. We might have some sort of evening "thing" TBD (We have a lot of good ideas, we'll announce soon) Just for extra caution, all attendees in the work area will sign a liability waiver. I know you're all smart and careful, but who knows with the general public... Some people may choose to bring their own items to repair. Others may opt to work on MARCH systems (you must have permission). Still others may want to be open for helping everyone else, or some combination of the above. Let me or Evan Koblentz know if you have questions - I can be reached via http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm Bill From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Mar 25 12:18:36 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: Failure Notice In-Reply-To: <515062AD.5030500@sbcglobal.net> References: <514cd59f.d121320a.191c.2894SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <515062AD.5030500@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <201303251718.NAA28847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Mouse --- > Is all okay with your servers? > : > Mail server for "rodents-montreal.org" unreachable for too long > Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2013 21:58:23 -0000 Yeah, if you send through Yahoo it won't get to me; I consider them too much a part of the precipitate. If you want to bother and don't have any other sending path you're willing to use for the purpose, mouse at openface.ca and/or mouse at netbsd.org might work. I can go into more detail if you like, but on-list is probably not the best venue. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 25 12:22:32 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:22:32 -0600 Subject: Wanted: VT101 compatible keyboard. In-Reply-To: <514E4C4F.3040803@lavabit.com> References: <514E4C4F.3040803@lavabit.com> Message-ID: In article <514E4C4F.3040803 at lavabit.com>, Tom Joyce writes: > Hello all! I have recently added a DEC VT101 to my collection. Only > problem is, it came with no keyboard. The way I understand it, any VT10x > keyboard will work with it. So, does anyone have an extra that they > would be willing to part with? Thanks a lot! -- Tom. If you don't find one from this list, they come up on ebay fairly often for reasonable prices -- and sometimes unreasonable ones; just hold out for a reasonable price like <= $25. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 25 12:43:38 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:43:38 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Failure Notice In-Reply-To: <201303251718.NAA28847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <514cd59f.d121320a.191c.2894SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <515062AD.5030500@sbcglobal.net> <201303251718.NAA28847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <51508CCA.6050302@sbcglobal.net> On 03/25/2013 01:18 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Mouse --- >> Is all okay with your servers? > >> : >> Mail server for "rodents-montreal.org" unreachable for too long > >> Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2013 21:58:23 -0000 > > Yeah, if you send through Yahoo it won't get to me; I consider them too > much a part of the precipitate. If you want to bother and don't have > any other sending path you're willing to use for the purpose, > mouse at openface.ca and/or mouse at netbsd.org might work. > > I can go into more detail if you like, but on-list is probably not the > best venue. > Nah, this answer is sufficient. Thanks. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Mar 25 13:56:05 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 19:56:05 +0100 Subject: Bristol Bloodhound parts anyone ? Message-ID: <51509DC5.8050902@bluewin.ch> In a vain attempt to find bits of a Ferranti Argus I uploaded myself with some parts of the iconic cold-war-era Bristol Bloodhound missile. Which I don't really want.... What would be appropriate venues / mailing lists to get rid of those parts ? ( items : radar receiver dish with positioner, accelerometer, gyro, altimeter, bulkhead, but very litte electronics ) Location : Switzerland The chap that sold me the parts uses the Bloodhound's ramjet engine as a coathanger..... Are there any surviving Argus 100 or 200 systems ? Jos From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 25 14:10:38 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bristol Bloodhound parts anyone ? In-Reply-To: <51509DC5.8050902@bluewin.ch> References: <51509DC5.8050902@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20130325120907.I9935@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Jos Dreesen wrote: > The chap that sold me the parts uses the Bloodhound's ramjet engine as a > coathanger..... That's certainly preferable to using a coathanger to make a missile ramjet. . . . and hopefully nobody here wants to resurrect one for its original purpose! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 14:37:37 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 19:37:37 +0000 Subject: Science! (With VAXen) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5150A781.6090707@gmail.com> On 25/03/2013 12:48, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/25/geeks_guide_jodrell_bank/ > > ... with mention of some retrocomputing elements, too... I had a visit there many years ago and were shown AMD2900 clones of Ferranti Argus Computers. I was told they cloned the machines because the code was dependant on the 24-bit word. So they stored "hhmmss" for right ascension and "ddmmss" for elevation as packed decimal. The old code was written in Forth which I would have thought would have been more portable. In addition they said Sir Bernard Lovell would not let them run the MK1A (The big dish) off a computer, it had to be manually steered, so when they were using the telescopes in an Array they would point the Mk1a at the object and the other telescopes would look where it was pointing and follow it.... > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 > 7939-087884http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/25/geeks_guide_jodrell_bank/ > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 25 15:58:40 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:58:40 +0100 Subject: Omnibus to USB - please preorder NOW, thank you! In-Reply-To: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> References: <513EAE4A.4090806@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5150BA80.2030305@hachti.de> Good evening! Status: I now have a perfectly working professionally made PCB sitting in my current working 8/e. The PCB has gold plated fingers and holes for mounting handles. The 8/e currently contains: * CPU with EAE * RK8E * 3x8K core * XY8E plotter control * KL8E (for console) * Omni-USB (for data transfer) * sometimes TD8E * diode bootstrap card So it's not a really "heavily loaded" machine. But a normally loaded system, far away from being a naked CPU only. I have not seen any problems or instabilities caused by the USB board. Now back to the reason for this mail: The whole thing is far away from being anything else than a commercial disaster. On my first post some people expressed their interest to own one or more boards. That summed up to 15 boards. Currently I have orders (and some money as well) for seven boards. I have no idea if there is any further interest. And I want to order the final PCBs T-O-M-O-R-R-O-W - for US people this means today late evening with respect to time zone differences. I planned to order and build 25 boards. But that will cost A LOT of money. Currently I'm not sure anymore. I will wait for your orders until tomorrow. And then I will order the boards that are spoken for. That saves me from spending even more money that I currently don't have. So if you want a board: Order NOW!!!! http://shop.hachti.de/en/vintage-computing/1-omni-usb-100.html If you just want to place an order and do not want to pay immediately via PayPal, you can chose "bank wire" and pay when the boards become ready for shipping. And not to forget: Many thanks to the handful of people who trusted me enough to order some boards even before the final design was completed. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 25 16:00:52 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 22:00:52 +0100 Subject: Wanted: VT101 compatible keyboard. In-Reply-To: References: <514E4C4F.3040803@lavabit.com> Message-ID: <5150BB04.90303@hachti.de> Hi, I could offer one of those from my source. EUR 20 would be ok. But it is located in Germany. Don't know if such a piece justifies the shipping costs. Regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Mon Mar 25 16:38:48 2013 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:38:48 +0000 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <72B44181-C1DC-4D77-9F96-9025EBE8E3F2@shiresoft.com> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> <72B44181-C1DC-4D77-9F96-9025EBE8E3F2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5150C3E8.60701@ljw.me.uk> On 24/03/13 22:15, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Mar 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > >> On 24/03/13 17:35, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> When I was in school (35 years ago) I had an IBM 1052 terminal that I interfaced to an 8080. The issue with the 1052 was that the relays were all 48v so finding drivers was interesting. ;-) It took me a bit of fiddling with the timing to get it to print properly (at 134.5 baud). It sure beat the ASR/KSR-33s that most other folks were using for their terminals just for the "cool" factor! TTFN - Guy >> The mechanicals of the 735 and 1052 are basically the same. The 1052 has pin feed, extra switches and things to suit use as a computer console, whereas the 73x are designed for word processing use. The one I got came from such a WP system, though I've no idea where the rest of that system got to. It was a "Kode" system (Calne, Wiltshire, UK) which used paper tape. > Is that really true? The 1052 was *very* heavy duty. I think they were similar in the way that the ASR33 and ASR35 were similar. > > TTFN - Guy > > > AFAIK all the I/O Selectrics were much the same. The maintenance intervals were dictated by how much they were used (one, two, three shifts). I'm not 100% sure the desktop typewriters were designed for the same duty, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph 07841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 25 16:50:02 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:50:02 -0700 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric project In-Reply-To: <5150C3E8.60701@ljw.me.uk> References: <514ED798.9030003@ljw.me.uk> <37AF3AEC-F9B6-40F4-B6CD-6EFD7FA09A92@shiresoft.com> <514F5396.5010803@ljw.me.uk> <72B44181-C1DC-4D77-9F96-9025EBE8E3F2@shiresoft.com> <5150C3E8.60701@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <0F56D873-E78C-46D5-9193-05FC13C7DE63@shiresoft.com> On Mar 25, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 24/03/13 22:15, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Mar 24, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: >> >>> On 24/03/13 17:35, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> When I was in school (35 years ago) I had an IBM 1052 terminal that I interfaced to an 8080. The issue with the 1052 was that the relays were all 48v so finding drivers was interesting. ;-) It took me a bit of fiddling with the timing to get it to print properly (at 134.5 baud). It sure beat the ASR/KSR-33s that most other folks were using for their terminals just for the "cool" factor! TTFN - Guy >>> The mechanicals of the 735 and 1052 are basically the same. The 1052 has pin feed, extra switches and things to suit use as a computer console, whereas the 73x are designed for word processing use. The one I got came from such a WP system, though I've no idea where the rest of that system got to. It was a "Kode" system (Calne, Wiltshire, UK) which used paper tape. >> Is that really true? The 1052 was *very* heavy duty. I think they were similar in the way that the ASR33 and ASR35 were similar. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> > AFAIK all the I/O Selectrics were much the same. The maintenance intervals were dictated by how much they were used (one, two, three shifts). I'm not 100% sure the desktop typewriters were designed for the same duty, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were. I can't remember the internals at all at this point but I do remember that the castings for the frame were *heavy* on the 1052. Nothing like any of the other Selectric frames I saw (like the 2741) and certainly nothing like the Selectric typewriters that I had (or saw). The 1052 was build like a tank. As I said, the pick relays on the 1052 were all 48v so given your description, the electrical portions are different than what's on the 735. TTFN - Guy From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Mar 26 05:27:41 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 23:27:41 +1300 Subject: My Commodore 64 on YouTube Message-ID: I got around to it eventually. My Commodore 64 on Youtube! http://youtu.be/LfpYaz8FtEY Terry (Tez) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 26 07:21:49 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:21:49 +0100 Subject: Bristol Bloodhound parts anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20130325120907.I9935@shell.lmi.net> References: <51509DC5.8050902@bluewin.ch> <20130325120907.I9935@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515192DD.4040404@hachti.de> Am 25.03.2013 20:10, schrieb Fred Cisin: > . . . and hopefully nobody here wants to resurrect one for its original > purpose! Ack! -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 26 14:14:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:14:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bristol Bloodhound parts anyone ? In-Reply-To: <20130325120907.I9935@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 25, 13 12:10:38 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > The chap that sold me the parts uses the Bloodhound's ramjet engine as a > > coathanger..... > > That's certainly preferable to using a coathanger to make a missile > ramjet. I am not convinced. A rmajet made fro coathangers is not going to go anywhere, which means that the missile will be unable to kil people. I would say that is a Good Thing. > > . . . and hopefully nobody here wants to resurrect one for its original > purpose! Hmm.. If 'origianl purpose' means acting as a jet engine (not necessarily to deliver an explosive warhead) then I see nothing wrong with it. -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Mar 26 22:01:31 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:01:31 +1300 Subject: classic-computers.org.nz down at the moment Message-ID: Hi, I know people occasionally access my domain at classic-computers.org.nz for articles and resources. Just a note to say it's down due to the 9GB monthy bandwidth allowance being exceeded. The hosting service seems unresponsive at the moment (in other words, I requested a bandwidth increase two days ago but nothing's happened). Hopefully it will be back up soon, but just letting folk know it could be as late as the 1st April, when the allocation is reset (but hopefully not that long..mind you with Easter coming up...!) Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Mar 26 22:34:19 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:34:19 +1300 Subject: classic-computers.org.nz down at the moment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The site is now back on line. Lesson learnt. One phone call can sometimes do what three emails can't. Terry (Tez) From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Wed Mar 27 06:49:05 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:49:05 +0000 Subject: DG MV/2500 Help Message-ID: <5152DCB1.6050505@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Well I got the PSU repaired in the MV/2500 I'm trying to resurrect; now I'm on to disk problems. On start-up I get Model # 8932; System Processing Unit (SPU) AB, FAILED; ERROR 6:252:74 I know that Break (CMD-ESC) will take me into some sort of primitive boot environment but I have no documentation (or knowledge) of available commands etc. Next steps: * Try to get the MV/2500 system media on 130MB CTD format * Try to get low-level documentation on the MV/2500 * Find out how to attach a PHU to the MV/2500 (no, it's not obvious!) * Find out for certain if I can put non-DG SCSI disks in the MV/2500. The two disks in there appear to have DG-originated BIOSes... Can anyone help or answer any of the above? Thanks in advance, Steve -- /Stephen Merrony /http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/mymv2500.html From stephen.hunt at iname.com Wed Mar 27 15:55:30 2013 From: stephen.hunt at iname.com (Steve Hunt) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:55:30 -0400 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? Message-ID: <20130327205530.192630@gmx.com> What's happened to the VCF? I'm just getting a place holder page that sells web sites. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 05:12:08 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:12:08 +0000 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? Message-ID: <294890664-1364465527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-161324293-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Sure there isn't a typo in the url? http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ works fine for me. ------Original Message------ From: Steve Hunt Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? Sent: Mar 27, 2013 3:55 PM What's happened to the VCF? I'm just getting a place holder page that sells web sites. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 28 05:20:49 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 11:20:49 +0100 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? In-Reply-To: <20130327205530.192630@gmx.com> References: <20130327205530.192630@gmx.com> Message-ID: <51541981.401@xs4all.nl> On 27-mrt-2013 21:55, Steve Hunt wrote: > What's happened to the VCF? I'm just getting a place holder page > that sells web sites. The domain name registration probably expired and, depending on the service, was bought or even auctioned off to the highest bidder. Good luck getting it back... (Same happened to the OpenVMS Hobbyist web site a few years back.) - MG From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 28 05:31:59 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 23:31:59 +1300 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? In-Reply-To: <294890664-1364465527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-161324293-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <294890664-1364465527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-161324293-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: It was down for a while yesterday but up now Terry (Tez) On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Sure there isn't a typo in the url? http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ works fine for me. > ------Original Message------ > From: Steve Hunt > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? > Sent: Mar 27, 2013 3:55 PM > > What's happened to the VCF? I'm just getting a place holder page that sells web sites. > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Mar 28 10:17:32 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:17:32 -0500 Subject: Debugging under RSTS/E Message-ID: <51545F0C.3000909@compsys.to> I attempted to run an RT-11 program under V10.1 of RSTS/E. Is there any way of invoking ODT or a DEBUG package under RSTS/E which is similar the SDX.SYS in RT-11 or "/DEBUG" in TSX-Plus? I can LINK ODT into the RT-11 program and use ODT that way. But I though that RSTS/E might support something a bit more user friendly than ODT at this point? Jerome Fine From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 28 10:48:53 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:48:53 -0500 Subject: Flexowriter rescue Message-ID: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. The unit is a Flexowriter model 2201 with the model 2314 Selectadata and the metal table. From what I've googled, these are 12 cps, 7-bit devices. I'll receive pictures later today. It sounds like it's intact, with full docs, under dust covers, perhaps much like this one: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/friden/Friden_Selectadata_Brochure.pdf I plan to give the owner an honest estimation of its rarity and value, and let them decide if they'd like me to have it. I'm somewhat tempted to keep it, but the angel on the other shoulder tells me to stop collecting more stuff. Anyone care to give some advice? - John From fast79ta at yahoo.com Thu Mar 28 10:50:18 2013 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:50:18 -0600 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? In-Reply-To: References: <294890664-1364465527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-161324293-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <00c801ce2bcb$f2c64a80$d852df80$@yahoo.com> I found this as well, and it was still acting up this morning. The network at work was pointing to a bad DNS, that would take you to the parking page. I reset the network adapter, and it must of refreshed the DNS address my computer was using, because now it's fine. I didn't think to grab the offending DNS address before I reset. Cheers, Joe -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Terry Stewart Sent: March-28-13 4:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? It was down for a while yesterday but up now Terry (Tez) On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Sure there isn't a typo in the url? http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ works fine for me. > ------Original Message------ > From: Steve Hunt > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? > Sent: Mar 27, 2013 3:55 PM > > What's happened to the VCF? I'm just getting a place holder page that sells web sites. > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 11:19:19 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:19:19 -0700 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? In-Reply-To: <00c801ce2bcb$f2c64a80$d852df80$@yahoo.com> References: <294890664-1364465527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-161324293-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <00c801ce2bcb$f2c64a80$d852df80$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Joe wrote: > I found this as well, and it was still acting up this morning. > > The network at work was pointing to a bad DNS, that would take you to the > parking page. > > I reset the network adapter, and it must of refreshed the DNS address my > computer was using, because now it's fine. > > I didn't think to grab the offending DNS address before I reset. Looks like it was just renewed for another 10 years so it should be fine after the glitches yesterday and today get flushed out. Domain Name.......... vintage-computer.com Creation Date........ 2002-03-24 Registration Date.... 2002-03-24 Expiry Date.......... 2023-03-24 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Mar 28 12:30:05 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 18:30:05 +0100 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <514E38E3.6070907@compsys.to> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> <514C8C47.4020503@sydex.com> <514E38E3.6070907@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1364491805.17781.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> l?r 2013-03-23 klockan 18:21 -0500 skrev Jerome H. Fine: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > When I was fairly new at the CD-R thing, I began purchasing what was > > then known as Mitsui Gold media, which claimed a lifetime of 300 > > years. I can still read what I wrote then just fine--but so can I > > also read the stuff written on bargain-basement "blue" CD-Rs. > > How old are CD's at this point? 25 years seems about right. > Videodisk is 35 year at least and considering that Philips release the first music CD player in 1981-82 or so ... From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 12:37:49 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:37:49 -0400 Subject: Whats happened to the Vintage Computer Forum? In-Reply-To: References: <294890664-1364465527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-161324293-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <00c801ce2bcb$f2c64a80$d852df80$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9308422E-00CC-4AE0-908B-75F12E324F94@gmail.com> On Mar 28, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Joe wrote: >> I found this as well, and it was still acting up this morning. >> >> The network at work was pointing to a bad DNS, that would take you to the >> parking page. >> >> I reset the network adapter, and it must of refreshed the DNS address my >> computer was using, because now it's fine. >> >> I didn't think to grab the offending DNS address before I reset. > > Looks like it was just renewed for another 10 years so it should be > fine after the glitches yesterday and today get flushed out. > > Domain Name.......... vintage-computer.com > Creation Date........ 2002-03-24 > Registration Date.... 2002-03-24 > Expiry Date.......... 2023-03-24 There was some discussion about this on another list yesterday; the domain had accidentally been allowed to expire. It's been fixed now, but if your DNS lookup server has it cached, it may be a bit before you get the right address (unless you can clear the cache yourself). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 28 12:57:44 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:57:44 -0400 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51548498.6000000@neurotica.com> On 03/28/2013 11:48 AM, John Foust wrote: > I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available > for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. > > The unit is a Flexowriter model 2201 with the model 2314 Selectadata > and the metal table. From what I've googled, these are 12 cps, 7-bit > devices. I'll receive pictures later today. It sounds like it's intact, > with full docs, under dust covers, perhaps much like this one: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/friden/Friden_Selectadata_Brochure.pdf > > I plan to give the owner an honest estimation of its rarity and value, > and let them decide if they'd like me to have it. I'm somewhat tempted > to keep it, but the angel on the other shoulder tells me to stop > collecting more stuff. > > Anyone care to give some advice? These have all but disappeared. I'd say grab it, quickly! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 28 13:07:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 11:07:07 -0700 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <1364491805.17781.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1363758919.7671.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <514C5DA1.60303@compsys.to> <201303221449.KAA15848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130322081116.K55538@shell.lmi.net> <514C8C47.4020503@sydex.com> <514E38E3.6070907@compsys.to> <1364491805.17781.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <515486CB.9030207@sydex.com> On 03/28/2013 10:30 AM, stefan skoglund(agj) wrote: > l?r 2013-03-23 klockan 18:21 -0500 skrev Jerome H. Fine: >> I wrote: >> How old are CD's at this point? 25 years seems about right. > > Videodisk is 35 year at least and considering that Philips release the > first music CD player in 1981-82 or so ... I guess I should have said "How old are CD-R's at this point?" Since commercial mass-produced CD's are produced by a different manufacturing process, they probably don't count. --Chuck From lists at loomcom.com Thu Mar 28 13:22:30 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:22:30 -0400 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20130328182230.GA2549@mail.loomcom.com> * On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:48:53AM -0500, John Foust wrote: > > Anyone care to give some advice? > None other than "Go for it!" :) About 5 years ago I found a Flexowriter in L.A. on eBay. Nobody bid on it, for some reason, and I ended up with it for $50. I was thrilled to get it, but after a while I had to admit to myself that I just didn't have the time or skill to restore it (it had some minor rust and had been in an attic for 30 years) so I wrote to the Computer History Museum to see if they wanted it. I assumed they wouldn't, I figured they probably had pallets of them, but to my surprise they really wanted it. So, that's where it ended up (and I got a tax deduction, win-win!) If you have the space/time/desire, and the opportunity, definitely do it! > - John -Seth From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 28 13:26:24 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:26:24 -0600 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153 at mx1.ezwind.net>, John Foust writes: > The unit is a Flexowriter model 2201 with the model 2314 Selectadata > and the metal table. Unfortunately it's big and bulky, so that presents a problem for most people as they are unwilling to either store it or have it freight shipped to them. That said, the Selectadata part is not common and IMO worthy of saving as the part of the story of automating business processes before the widespread deployment of computers. The CHM catalog has lots of Friden calculators, documents and Flexowriters in their collection, but I didn't find anything on Selectadata. > devices. I'll receive pictures later today. It sounds like it's intact, > with full docs, under dust covers, perhaps much like this one: At the very least, documents should be rescued. > I plan to give the owner an honest estimation of its rarity and value, > and let them decide if they'd like me to have it. Rarity is much easier to peg than value. I get the impression from my research that flexowriters and associated equipment were quite common at one point, but that they weren't sexy enough for computer collectors to keep them and they're big and heavy, so most of the time they just got junked. While they are similar to teletypes, there are lots of people with a teletype fetish, but hardly anyone with a flexowriter fetish, which is another reason that they haven't been saved very often. I rescued a bunch from the Black Hole before they shut down, but didn't have room in my trailer to take the Flexowriter desks and so-on that they also had. The desks at the Black Hole didn't have any associated circuitry, they were just furniture, but it would still have been nice to rescue that along with the machines themselves. So as far as rarity goes, I'd say not common. As far as value? Well, they have very little actual scrap value, just what you'd get for the steel, since they aren't full of chips and gold edge finger connectors on circuit boards. Since collectors have less interest in flexowriters than teletypes, I'd gauge market value in the "free if you haul it away for me" category, but maybe other people would disagree. Everything I see with a successful sale on ebay is regarding the Friden calculators with the sole exception of some flexowriter schematics that sold for $20. I'm not anywhere near Wisconsin myself, so I'm not a good candidate for the rescue of this equipment, but I would like to see the equipment rescued if possible and if that's difficult/prohibitive, then at least the documentation should be rescued. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 28 13:28:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:28:49 -0400 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <20130328182230.GA2549@mail.loomcom.com> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130328182230.GA2549@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <51548BE1.1060502@neurotica.com> On 03/28/2013 02:22 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> Anyone care to give some advice? > > None other than "Go for it!" :) > > About 5 years ago I found a Flexowriter in L.A. on eBay. Nobody bid on > it, for some reason, and I ended up with it for $50. I suspect that was because so few people know about them. They are REALLY old. (and actually "L@@K! RARE!!") > I was thrilled to > get it, but after a while I had to admit to myself that I just didn't > have the time or skill to restore it (it had some minor rust and had > been in an attic for 30 years) so I wrote to the Computer History Museum > to see if they wanted it. I assumed they wouldn't, I figured they > probably had pallets of them, but to my surprise they really wanted it. > So, that's where it ended up (and I got a tax deduction, win-win!) > > If you have the space/time/desire, and the opportunity, definitely do > it! I agree 100%! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 28 14:09:29 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <20130328182230.GA2549@mail.loomcom.com> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130328182230.GA2549@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20130328115640.Y64147@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Mar 2013, Seth Morabito wrote: > So, that's where it ended up (and I got a tax deduction, win-win!) If you donate right after getting something, then you are allowed to take a deduction in the amount that you paid for it. If you donate after keeping it for a year, then you are allowed to take a deduction in the amount of "the fair market value" 30 years ago, my father and I had a Centronics 101 (think big and heavy). Although "Processor" had ads selling them for $1K, I couldn't get $50 at John Craig's "Computer Swap America" in San Jose (think big and heavy). But City College of San Francisco was getting fed up with the number of Radio Shack printers that they wore out and broke each semester, . . . It withstood Computer Lab abuse for YEARS. Q: Since eBay seems to be the primary market for our crap^H^H^H^H valuables, can we get away with those prices as the "value"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spedraja at ono.com Thu Mar 28 15:39:54 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 21:39:54 +0100 Subject: Mark Crispin and PANDA Message-ID: Hello. What happened with the PANDA distribution available in PANDA.COM ? The site appears to be down. Regards Sergio From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 28 15:46:30 2013 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:46:30 -0400 Subject: Mark Crispin and PANDA In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 28 Mar 2013 21:39:54 BST.) References: Message-ID: <20130328204630.BC2DBA580F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What happened with the PANDA distribution available in PANDA.COM ? The > site appears to be down. Sergio, Mark passed away in December. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin http://web.archive.org/web/20120716203753/http://panda.com/tops-20/ De From spedraja at ono.com Thu Mar 28 16:16:18 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 22:16:18 +0100 Subject: Mark Crispin and PANDA In-Reply-To: <20130328204630.BC2DBA580F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20130328204630.BC2DBA580F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Dennis. I knew it, we spoke about it on the list. But... I didn't see any post about the PANDA distribution. Regards Sergio 2013/3/28 Dennis Boone > > What happened with the PANDA distribution available in PANDA.COM ? The > > site appears to be down. > > Sergio, > > Mark passed away in December. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin > > http://web.archive.org/web/20120716203753/http://panda.com/tops-20/ > > De > From tommie at fox.se Thu Mar 28 08:30:25 2013 From: tommie at fox.se (Tommie Mademark) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:30:25 +0100 Subject: DG MV/2500 Help In-Reply-To: <5152DCB1.6050505@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <5152DCB1.6050505@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <40A791DCA605FE468794FC2AE63FA2041EEA037086@mail.fox.se> Steve, the error code means the SCP (System Control Processor) is unable to find and load the MV's microcode from the disk. /Tommie http://datageneral.org/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Merrony Sent: den 27 mars 2013 12:49 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: DG MV/2500 Help Well I got the PSU repaired in the MV/2500 I'm trying to resurrect; now I'm on to disk problems. On start-up I get Model # 8932; System Processing Unit (SPU) AB, FAILED; ERROR 6:252:74 I know that Break (CMD-ESC) will take me into some sort of primitive boot environment but I have no documentation (or knowledge) of available commands etc. Next steps: * Try to get the MV/2500 system media on 130MB CTD format * Try to get low-level documentation on the MV/2500 * Find out how to attach a PHU to the MV/2500 (no, it's not obvious!) * Find out for certain if I can put non-DG SCSI disks in the MV/2500. The two disks in there appear to have DG-originated BIOSes... Can anyone help or answer any of the above? Thanks in advance, Steve -- /Stephen Merrony /http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/mymv2500.html From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 28 19:08:58 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:08:58 -0700 Subject: Mark Crispin and PANDA In-Reply-To: References: <20130328204630.BC2DBA580F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5154DB9A.30108@jwsss.com> On 3/28/2013 2:16 PM, SPC wrote: > Thanks, Dennis. I knew it, we spoke about it on the list. But... I didn't > see any post about the PANDA distribution. > > Regards > Sergio It looks like there may be a mirror here http://panda.trailing-edge.com/ thanks to archive.org for that bit, as well as Tim Shoppa for capturing it (I think he's trailing edge, or whoever did it) thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 28 20:04:37 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 20:04:37 -0500 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5154E8A5.3070802@pico-systems.com> > - > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:48:53 -0500 > From: John Foust > > > I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available > for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. > > The unit is a Flexowriter model 2201 with the model 2314 Selectadata > and the metal table. From what I've googled, these are 12 cps, 7-bit > devices. I'll receive pictures later today. It sounds like it's intact, > with full docs, under dust covers, perhaps much like this one: > > I had a flexowriter that was at least a full generation newer than that one, at least judging by the general styling. It needed a procedure about every week or two to free up a bunch of oval-shaped wheels that touched a spinning drum that looked like a typewriter platen roll. When the oval wheel dug into the spinning roller it flipped the roller over, driving the type bars up to the paper. I think the roller got a glaze and the wheels wouldn't catch or something. otherwise it worked fairly reliably, and had paper tape reader and punch. Jon From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Fri Mar 29 04:16:26 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:16:26 +0000 Subject: DG MV/2500 Help In-Reply-To: <40A791DCA605FE468794FC2AE63FA2041EEA037086@mail.fox.se> References: <5152DCB1.6050505@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <40A791DCA605FE468794FC2AE63FA2041EEA037086@mail.fox.se> Message-ID: <51555BEA.3010408@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Tommie, Yes - I kinda worked that out :-) Hence my four questions. Perhaps what I really need to find is a functional MV/2500 in the UK... Steve On 28/03/2013 13:30, Tommie Mademark wrote: > Steve, the error code means the SCP (System Control Processor) is unable to find and load the MV's microcode from the disk. > > /Tommie > http://datageneral.org/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Merrony > Sent: den 27 mars 2013 12:49 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: DG MV/2500 Help > > Well I got the PSU repaired in the MV/2500 I'm trying to resurrect; now I'm on to disk problems. > > On start-up I get > > Model # 8932; System Processing Unit (SPU) > AB, FAILED; ERROR 6:252:74 > > > I know that Break (CMD-ESC) will take me into some sort of primitive boot environment but I have no documentation (or knowledge) of available commands etc. > > Next steps: > > * Try to get the MV/2500 system media on 130MB CTD format > * Try to get low-level documentation on the MV/2500 > * Find out how to attach a PHU to the MV/2500 (no, it's not obvious!) > * Find out for certain if I can put non-DG SCSI disks in the MV/2500. > The two disks in there appear to have DG-originated BIOSes... > > Can anyone help or answer any of the above? > > Thanks in advance, > > Steve > > -- > /Stephen Merrony > /http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/mymv2500.html > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 29 10:02:23 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:02:23 -0500 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> At 10:48 AM 3/28/2013, myself wrote: >I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available >for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. Well, so much for model numbers over the phone! I received two pictures of the units: http://threedee.com/jcm/friden/ Considerably newer than that Bitsavers flyer; more Mad Men than The Man In the Grey Flannel Suit. She says she has docs and a roll of pink paper tape. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 29 10:47:25 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 08:47:25 -0700 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5155B78D.8020501@bitsavers.org> On 3/29/13 8:02 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:48 AM 3/28/2013, myself wrote: > >> I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available >> for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. > Similar the one I donated to CHM http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102692719 which also has the Selectadata assembly. These were mainly used for producing form letters where the address, etc. were read off of the second paper tape input. From sander.reiche at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 12:05:10 2013 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 18:05:10 +0100 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Bee-autiful!! On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:02 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:48 AM 3/28/2013, myself wrote: > > >I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available > >for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. > > Well, so much for model numbers over the phone! I received two > pictures of the units: > > http://threedee.com/jcm/friden/ > > Considerably newer than that Bitsavers flyer; more Mad Men than > The Man In the Grey Flannel Suit. She says she has docs and a roll > of pink paper tape. > > - John > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 29 12:06:48 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:06:48 -0600 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <5155B78D.8020501@bitsavers.org> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> <5155B78D.8020501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <5155B78D.8020501 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 3/29/13 8:02 AM, John Foust wrote: > > At 10:48 AM 3/28/2013, myself wrote: > > > >> I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available > >> for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. > > > > Similar the one I donated to CHM > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102692719 > which also has the Selectadata assembly. Looking at that, I see that Selectadata didn't get into the description anywhere, which is why I found nothing when I searched fo that keyword :) > These were mainly used for producing form letters where the address, etc. > were read off of the second paper tape input. Yep. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 29 12:09:45 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:09:45 -0600 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215 at mx1.ezwind.net>, John Foust writes: > At 10:48 AM 3/28/2013, myself wrote: > > >I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available > >for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. > > Well, so much for model numbers over the phone! I received two > pictures of the units: > > http://threedee.com/jcm/friden/ > > Considerably newer than that Bitsavers flyer; more Mad Men than > The Man In the Grey Flannel Suit. She says she has docs and a roll > of pink paper tape. For some reason, even though these are the newer model of Flexowriter, they seem less common than the older ones. I have several (3 I think) of these Flexowriters as well. I don't think any of mine are in working condition, considering they all came from The Black Hole where everything was pretty dirty. I haven't tried to power on all of the units that I have, but I have applied power to one or two of them and so far no joy. Again, docs are always good, considering I might have some repairs to do :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 29 12:32:35 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:32:35 -0500 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201303291732.r2THWhCL045594@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:09 PM 3/29/2013, Richard wrote: >For some reason, even though these are the newer model of Flexowriter, >they seem less common than the older ones. I have several (3 I think) >of these Flexowriters as well. I don't think any of mine are in >working condition, considering they all came from The Black Hole where >everything was pretty dirty. So do these have a current loop interface? Are these the model that was used in early 60s computing environments? - John From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 29 12:50:42 2013 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303291732.r2THWhCL045594@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291732.r2THWhCL045594@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, John Foust wrote: > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:32:35 -0500 > From: John Foust > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Flexowriter rescue > > At 12:09 PM 3/29/2013, Richard wrote: >> For some reason, even though these are the newer model of Flexowriter, >> they seem less common than the older ones. I have several (3 I think) >> of these Flexowriters as well. I don't think any of mine are in >> working condition, considering they all came from The Black Hole where >> everything was pretty dirty. > > So do these have a current loop interface? Are these the model that > was used in early 60s computing environments? > > - John > AFAIK they are not normally serial. I did have a model 7102 Flexowriter at one time that was Async ASCII RS-232, 110 Baud (the bustle had small cards with early DTL IC's instead of the relays that most Flexowriters have) Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 29 13:01:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:01:51 -0600 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <201303291732.r2THWhCL045594@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291732.r2THWhCL045594@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201303291732.r2THWhCL045594 at mx1.ezwind.net>, John Foust writes: > So do these have a current loop interface? Are these the model that > was used in early 60s computing environments? A brochure for the 2303 on bitsavers is dated "Received Apr 12 1966", so the "modern" variety was available in the 1960s; who knows when they stopped making them. As for what interface they have, it is most likely current loop, but it would depend on the model. Like teletypes, flexowriters were highly customizable for different customers and applications, so while there is a standard model, large installations might not purchase the standard model but instead one with a customized interface or other features. Some of the flexowriters I have contain various items that are clearly additions to the base model and I haven't yet figured out what those additions provide. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Fri Mar 29 13:08:52 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 19:08:52 +0100 Subject: xerox 820-II floppy disk controller card Message-ID: <00f301ce2ca8$7a13aa00$6e3afe00$@lazzerini@email.it> Ciao at all, is there anybody who wish to sell to me or indicate where to find the floppy disk controller card i need to make my mainboard xerox 820-II working again? This the card i'm looking for: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ze8ne5nnz8s37lw/Xerox%20820-II%20Floppy%20Disk%20C ontroller.jpg Thanks Enrico From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 29 14:42:30 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:42:30 -0500 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? Message-ID: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> http://newrelic.com/ Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 15:00:06 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 20:00:06 +0000 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> References: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> Message-ID: <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I haven't but what were you wanting to accomplish? These are often companies using opensource tools and reworking the front end to make it look like their own ware. -----Original Message----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:42:30 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? http://newrelic.com/ Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 From menadeau at comcast.net Fri Mar 29 15:04:49 2013 From: menadeau at comcast.net (menadeau at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 20:04:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> Message-ID: <454699916.226683.1364587489650.JavaMail.root@sz0115a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? http://newrelic.com/ New Relic offers application performance management software for web and mobile apps. It basically monitors and analyzes your applications and tells you where the bottlenecks are. It's a legit company; I've been to their offices in San Francisco. You can see our story on them here: http://data-informed.com/new-relics-app-speed-index-turns-data-volume-value/ From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 29 15:13:39 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:13:39 -0500 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <028a01ce2cb9$e6ddcab0$b4996010$@com> What open source tools that run on php and mysql would do the same things? I haven't but what were you wanting to accomplish? These are often companies using opensource tools and reworking the front end to make it look like their own ware. Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? http://newrelic.com/ Cindy Croxton ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 16:01:33 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:01:33 +0000 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <028a01ce2cb9$e6ddcab0$b4996010$@com> References: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <028a01ce2cb9$e6ddcab0$b4996010$@com> Message-ID: <112378325-1364590891-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1321461317-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> It depends what you're trying to monitor or graph. We use nagios for system checks and to page out if services are beyond a threshold or if a service fails but that's mostly system and simple app checks. Opennms is more for network and system performance graphing and monitoring. Works pretty well and I've seen commercial software use it behind the scenes. There's also one that monitors which web pages are most hit and graphs usage by ip, page, etc but I can't remember the name right now. -----Original Message----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:13:39 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? What open source tools that run on php and mysql would do the same things? I haven't but what were you wanting to accomplish? These are often companies using opensource tools and reworking the front end to make it look like their own ware. Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? http://newrelic.com/ Cindy Croxton ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 29 16:06:57 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 17:06:57 -0400 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <112378325-1364590891-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1321461317-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <028a01ce2cb9$e6ddcab0$b4996010$@com> <112378325-1364590891-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1321461317-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <51560271.2010309@neurotica.com> I use Cacti for similar things. Works a treat. 100% free, all the way down to the metal. -Dave On 03/29/2013 05:01 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > It depends what you're trying to monitor or graph. We use nagios for system checks and to page out if services are beyond a threshold or if a service fails but that's mostly system and simple app checks. > > Opennms is more for network and system performance graphing and monitoring. Works pretty well and I've seen commercial software use it behind the scenes. > > There's also one that monitors which web pages are most hit and graphs usage by ip, page, etc but I can't remember the name right now. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:13:39 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: RE: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > > What open source tools that run on php and mysql would do the same things? > > > I haven't but what were you wanting to accomplish? These are often > companies using opensource tools and reworking the front end to make it look > like their own ware. > > > Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > > http://newrelic.com/ > > Cindy Croxton > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 29 16:50:40 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:50:40 -0700 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51560CB0.5060807@bitsavers.org> On 3/29/13 10:09 AM, Richard wrote: > For some reason, even though these are the newer model of Flexowriter, > they seem less common than the older ones. and for some reason the documentation for the later ones is also less common and demands a MUCH higher price when it turns up. From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Mar 29 18:43:43 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 19:43:43 -0400 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <51560271.2010309@neurotica.com> References: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com>, <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <028a01ce2cb9$e6ddcab0$b4996010$@com>, <112378325-1364590891-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1321461317-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <51560271.2010309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: observium ftw :) > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 17:06:57 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > > > I use Cacti for similar things. Works a treat. 100% free, all the way > down to the metal. > > -Dave > > On 03/29/2013 05:01 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > It depends what you're trying to monitor or graph. We use nagios for system checks and to page out if services are beyond a threshold or if a service fails but that's mostly system and simple app checks. > > > > Opennms is more for network and system performance graphing and monitoring. Works pretty well and I've seen commercial software use it behind the scenes. > > > > There's also one that monitors which web pages are most hit and graphs usage by ip, page, etc but I can't remember the name right now. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" > > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:13:39 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: RE: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > > > > What open source tools that run on php and mysql would do the same things? > > > > > > I haven't but what were you wanting to accomplish? These are often > > companies using opensource tools and reworking the front end to make it look > > like their own ware. > > > > > > Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > > > > http://newrelic.com/ > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 > > > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From a50mhzham at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 18:54:49 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 18:54:49 -0500 Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? In-Reply-To: <112378325-1364590891-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim. net-1321461317-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <025801ce2cb5$8d42c8b0$a7c85a10$@com> <813785185-1364587205-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1447316929-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <028a01ce2cb9$e6ddcab0$b4996010$@com> <112378325-1364590891-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1321461317-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <51562b3f.ea80ec0a.5f69.ffffe9e6@mx.google.com> At 04:01 PM 3/29/2013, you wrote: >It depends what you're trying to monitor or >graph. We use nagios for system checks and to >page out if services are beyond a threshold or >if a service fails but that's mostly system and simple app checks. People talk about a program called "What's Up" or "What's Up Gold" but it seemed a little basic way back when I looked at it. We use Nagios extensively, but we've gone a little beyond basic checks. We wrote some plug-ins and adapted others. One of the simpler ones is to do an http GET of a page and verify that 1. the page can be retrieved and 2. it contains the words " is alive." We also issue SIP commands and make sure our Asterisk servers are alive, and send TNS PINGs, which indicate that an Oracle database server at least has basic connectivity to the Oracle process. I found the configuration process a bit cumbersome, so I store the hosts file in a CSV, edit it with Excel and a simple macro, and run a script to install it. The script even restarts the Nagios process for me, after checking my new hosts and services files for proper syntax. -t >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: RE: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > >What open source tools that run on php and mysql would do the same things? > > >I haven't but what were you wanting to accomplish? These are often >companies using opensource tools and reworking the front end to make it look >like their own ware. > > >Subject: Anybody ever heard of this application/company? > >http://newrelic.com/ > >Cindy Croxton > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6210 - Release Date: 03/28/13 690 . [Faith] I can believe anything provided it is incredible. --Oscar Wilde a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 30 00:02:06 2013 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 00:02:06 -0500 Subject: Scientific American archives Message-ID: Not totally out of line with Al and Bitsavers, but the total set (every issue) was up for for a few months as a lead-in to subscribe before Nature Magazine acquired it. Lots of great computing articles, not to mention the advertizements. Did it land somewhere? Randy From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 30 08:45:16 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:45:16 +0100 Subject: FS or Trade: Viper board Basic Language Processor Message-ID: <004c01ce2d4c$d3ac4550$7b04cff0$@xs4all.nl> I've a HP 82321C Viper board (ISA) with manuals and software which I want to part from. This one I had for spare but I only need one for spare.. It will ship worldwide and weight will be about 2 kg. Item is located in NL. -Rik From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 30 12:13:10 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 12:13:10 -0500 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51571D26.4020401@pico-systems.com> > From: Sander Reiche > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Flexowriter rescue > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Bee-autiful!! > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:02 PM, John Foust wrote: > > >> At 10:48 AM 3/28/2013, myself wrote: >> >> >>> I received a tip about a Flexowriter Selectadata system available >>> for rescue in southeast Wisconsin. >>> >> Well, so much for model numbers over the phone! I received two >> pictures of the units: >> >> http://threedee.com/jcm/friden/ >> >> Considerably newer than that Bitsavers flyer; more Mad Men than >> The Man In the Grey Flannel Suit. She says she has docs and a roll >> of pink paper tape. >> >> Yes, that appears to be the same as the one I had almost 40 years ago. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 30 17:52:01 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:52:01 -0400 Subject: OT: GPIB list for Prologix adapters Message-ID: <51576C91.2000508@neurotica.com> Hi folks. This is very much off-topic, but I know several people here use this sort of stuff either at home or at work. I've picked up one of the Prologix GPIB-ETHERNET bridge boxes, and I've been writing an instrument control library in the R language to control GPIB-interfaced instruments via the Prologix unit. I've been writing instrument drivers like a madman; these are the ones I have working so far: Standalone: HP 3325A synthesized function generator HP 3458A 8.5-digit multimeter HP 54111D digitizing oscilloscope HP 70900A spectrum analyzer HP 8505A RF network analyzer VXI: HP E1406A and E1301A VXI command modules E1411B VXI digital multimeter E1416A VXI RF power meter E1445A VXI arbitrary waveform/function generator Racal 3271 VXI RF signal generator This is amazingly powerful stuff when combined with the mathematical, statistical, and graphical plotting capabilities of R. I've started a mailing list for discussions amongst people using the Prologix units (not restricted to my work with R), and our efforts to get them running with different instruments. If you're interested in that stuff and want to be put on that list, drop me a note privately and I'll add you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 30 18:15:01 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:15:01 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs available Message-ID: <002701ce2d9c$74838ed0$5d8aac70$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! More XT-IDE V2 PCBs have arrived. They will cost the same as before ($12 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more XT-IDE V2 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 There are about 28 XT-IDE V2 PCBs left. At least 10 are committed at the moment. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 31 00:17:53 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:17:53 +1300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube Message-ID: An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I Terry (Tez) From marco.camacho at nologin.mx Sat Mar 30 23:37:21 2013 From: marco.camacho at nologin.mx (Marco A. Camacho) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 22:37:21 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? Message-ID: <1E2A7CF7-4177-4941-BC47-BCCEB901FBFD@nologin.mx> Bello, Did the proyect of scanning computer shopper issues took place? Thanks for the advice. Marco ----- From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 31 07:11:19 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 06:11:19 -0600 Subject: Flexowriter rescue In-Reply-To: <51560CB0.5060807@bitsavers.org> References: <201303281549.r2SFnU3J091153@mx1.ezwind.net> <201303291502.r2TF2WQC029215@mx1.ezwind.net> <51560CB0.5060807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <51560CB0.5060807 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 3/29/13 10:09 AM, Richard wrote: > > > For some reason, even though these are the newer model of Flexowriter, > > they seem less common than the older ones. > > and for some reason the documentation for the later ones is also less common > and demands a MUCH higher price when it turns up. It's possible that Will Donzelli pulled something out of the Black Hole, but I didn't come across any docs while I was there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 10:20:37 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 08:20:37 -0700 Subject: Harry Starck Pyle, March 11, 2013 at the age of 63 Message-ID: Contributed to the Intel 8008 design, among many other things http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sanantonio/obituary-print.aspx?pid=163796104 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102702017 http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/Oral_History/102702017.05.01.acc.pdf From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 11:25:03 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 12:25:03 -0400 Subject: Scientific American archives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5158635F.60608@neurotica.com> On 03/30/2013 01:02 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Not totally out of line with Al and Bitsavers, but the total set (every issue) was up for for a few months as a lead-in to subscribe before Nature Magazine acquired it. > > Lots of great computing articles, not to mention the advertizements. > > Did it land somewhere? I sure hope so. Have you found them yet? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 13:20:49 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:20:49 -0300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube References: Message-ID: <64E35E7FEB0243DB8325F483DBB981AF@tababook> Oh, a MSX computer (or something like) :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:17 AM Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 31 13:42:15 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 07:42:15 +1300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <64E35E7FEB0243DB8325F483DBB981AF@tababook> References: <64E35E7FEB0243DB8325F483DBB981AF@tababook> Message-ID: Yea, something like. In fact the SV-323 (big brother to the SV-318) was the prototype for MSX computers according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX Terry (Tez) On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:20 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > > Oh, a MSX computer (or something like) :oD > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:17 AM > Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an >> interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. >> http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I >> >> Terry (Tez) >> > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 31 13:53:34 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 07:53:34 +1300 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in Message-ID: The latest addition to the collection http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm Terry (Tez) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 14:03:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:03:41 -0400 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 02:53 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > The latest addition to the collection > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm Very nice! Those machines are quite rare here. It's nice to see one in such good condition! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 31 14:25:35 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 08:25:35 +1300 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> References: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Very nice! Those machines are quite rare here. It's nice to see one in >such good condition! This was from a guy who seemed to be an Acorn collector. He put four of these machines on our Trade Me auction site. Four New Zealand collectors (of which I was one) picked up one each. They were all in great condition apparently. Terry (Tez) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 14:32:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:32:26 -0400 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 03:25 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> Very nice! Those machines are quite rare here. It's nice to see one in >> such good condition! > > This was from a guy who seemed to be an Acorn collector. He put four of > these machines on our Trade Me auction site. Four New Zealand collectors > (of which I was one) picked up one each. They were all in great condition > apparently. Wow. Great score. I love seeing and reading about these Acorn machines. I'm an embedded systems developer; I work with ARM processors (mostly ARM7) every day and really like them. It's cool to see and learn about their heritage. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 16:14:15 2013 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:14:15 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is_now_obsole?= =?windows-1252?Q?te=2C_will_be_dismantled?= Message-ID: Fyi. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ -- Stephane FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez FreeDonne. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Mar 31 16:48:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 23:48:45 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> On 31-mrt-2013 23:14, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > Fyi. > > > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ The power bill must've also been in the top 500 of the world... - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 16:56:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:56:53 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5158B125.9030008@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 05:48 PM, MG wrote: >> Fyi. >> >> >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ >> > > The power bill must've also been in the top 500 of the world... No doubt. But that's what power is for. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 17:39:29 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:39:29 -0300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube References: <64E35E7FEB0243DB8325F483DBB981AF@tababook> Message-ID: <35E0D40C0F814E7BB2F466E842673E6B@tababook> > Yea, something like. In fact the SV-323 (big brother to the SV-318) was > the prototype for MSX computers according to > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX But the 318 is one of my dreams, that red joystick is fun squared :oD BTW, just got a Spectrum Plus here...THANKS A LOT you know who :o) I never ever saw an original Speccy in front of me! ;oD From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 31 18:17:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 16:17:25 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5158C405.6040103@sydex.com> On 03/31/2013 02:14 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ It's probably my age, but I just can't get excited about the massive multiprocessor boxes. --Chuck From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sun Mar 31 18:52:03 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:52:03 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158C405.6040103@sydex.com> References: <5158C405.6040103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5158CC23.8070208@landcomp.net> On 3/31/13 5:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/31/2013 02:14 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ >> > > It's probably my age, but I just can't get excited about the massive > multiprocessor boxes. > > --Chuck > > > > LOL, yeah, now they can probably do the same work with 2 iPads and a couple of 100tb. NAS arrays -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 19:00:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 20:00:06 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158CC23.8070208@landcomp.net> References: <5158C405.6040103@sydex.com> <5158CC23.8070208@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5158CE06.5040309@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 07:52 PM, Dave Land wrote: >>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ >>> >>> >> >> It's probably my age, but I just can't get excited about the massive >> multiprocessor boxes. >> > LOL, yeah, now they can probably do the same work with 2 iPads and a couple > of 100tb. NAS arrays With a supercomputer from four years ago? Uh, no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Mar 31 19:10:14 2013 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158CE06.5040309@neurotica.com> References: <5158C405.6040103@sydex.com> <5158CC23.8070208@landcomp.net> <5158CE06.5040309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 20:00:06 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: [windows-1252] World~Rs top supercomputer from ~Q09 is now > obsolete, will be dismantled > > On 03/31/2013 07:52 PM, Dave Land wrote: >>>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It's probably my age, but I just can't get excited about the massive >>> multiprocessor boxes. >>> >> LOL, yeah, now they can probably do the same work with 2 iPads and a couple >> of 100tb. NAS arrays > > With a supercomputer from four years ago? Uh, no. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > Looks like using the GPU in the latest IPAD at full blast will give you ~77 GFlops (but no way high bandwidth way to connect) so about 13,158 ipads to equal the decommissioned ~1 PF machine in bare CPU horsepower Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 31 19:14:55 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... Message-ID: 6030 days ain't too shabby. :) http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1199529 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 31 19:33:31 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? Are there finite limits on how much space can be created under the Fort? What is it being replaced with? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 19:40:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 20:40:51 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 08:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? Remember, this is America. If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old! > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? Contracts, and suits. > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? Of course. This is IBM. They can do damn near anything these days, if technology is the only limiting factor. > Are there finite limits on how much space can be created under the Fort? > > What is it being replaced with? 13,158 iPads? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 19:56:52 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:56:52 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is_now_ob?= =?windows-1252?Q?solete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2013 5:34 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > > What is it being replaced with? It's being replaced by the WOPR. Apparently its replacement has been in service for a while: http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/hpc/cielo/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 31 19:58:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130331175446.T15882@shell.lmi.net> > > Are there finite limits on how much space can be created under the Fort? hyperspace? > > What is it being replaced with? On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > 13,158 iPads? That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm How much power would they draw? From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 31 20:07:28 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFdvcmxk4oCZcyB0b3Agc3VwZXJjb21wdXRlciBmcm9tIOKAmDA5IGlz?= =?utf-8?B?IG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1364778448.94943.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >? Contracts, and suits. Bingo! ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 8:40 PM Subject: Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled On 03/31/2013 08:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? ? Remember, this is America.? If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old! > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? ? Contracts, and suits. > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? ? Of course.? This is IBM.? They can do damn near anything these days, if technology is the only limiting factor. > Are there finite limits on how much space can be created under the Fort? > > What is it being replaced with? ? 13,158 iPads? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 20:15:12 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 21:15:12 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331175446.T15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> <20130331175446.T15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 08:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> 13,158 iPads? > That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm > > How much power would they draw? http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 kWh of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge every other day." ...A LOT. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 31 20:31:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> <20130331175446.T15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130331183000.V15882@shell.lmi.net> > >> 13,158 iPads? > > That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm > > How much power would they draw? On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ > "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 > kWh of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge > every other day." and that is probably based on "normal usage", not 24x7 > ...A LOT. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 31 20:36:57 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 21:36:57 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331183000.V15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> <20130331175446.T15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> <20130331183000.V15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5158E4B9.4050004@neurotica.com> On 03/31/2013 09:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> 13,158 iPads? >>> That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm >>> How much power would they draw? > > On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ >> "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 >> kWh of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge >> every other day." > > and that is probably based on "normal usage", not 24x7 Probably. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sun Mar 31 20:37:20 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:37:20 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> <20130331175446.T15882@shell.lmi.net> <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5158E4D0.5080509@landcomp.net> On 3/31/13 7:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/31/2013 08:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> 13,158 iPads? >> That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm >> >> How much power would they draw? > > > http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ > > "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 kWh > of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge every other > day." > > ...A LOT. > > -Dave > Of course their retiring super box probably takes 12 kwh in a few minutes. :D It's all relative I guess... Heck, it keeps my 6.5kw generator busy, powering my few machines and a couple of lights when the power goes down here. -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 31 22:03:58 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 20:03:58 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is?= =?windows-1252?Q?_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2013, at 5:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? There's nothing wrong with the fundamental architecture (other than power consumption). The newer systems are faster and consume a lot less power and are therefore a lot cheaper to run. RoadRunner hit 1.042PFlops and consumes 2.3MW (and currently sits at #22 on the super computer list). #21 consumes only 1.2MW, and #23 @ 1.035PFlops consumes 493KW (ie almost as fast but consumes ~1/5 the power). TTFN - Guy From hachti at hachti.de Sun Mar 31 22:41:03 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 05:41:03 +0200 Subject: omnibus expansion Message-ID: <515901CF.3080302@hachti.de> Hello, pdp8 enthusiasts! What do I need for an Omnibus expansion box? I already have an 8/a style box running as extension with one of my 8/e computers. But that's small and I want a larger box. Problem: I've never seen that box. Can I convert a pdp8/e chassis by removing front panel and the key switch? How did the original front of the expansion look like? Comments welcome. Regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sun Mar 31 23:48:45 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 15:48:45 +1100 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C39D62F-84E3-4CEC-B80F-40F61630AE09@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 01/04/2013, at 5:53 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > The latest addition to the collection > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm I'm jealous - I had an earlier Archimedes on my desk at work for a couple of weeks back when they were new but couldn't convince the distributer to sell it at a reasonable price - in the end I got a Mac Iicx running A/UX which cost five times as much but that's another story. Must see if I can track something like this down to add to my collection... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green"