From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 00:11:19 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 01:11:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2GB Iomega Ditto Drive In-Reply-To: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> References: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201301010611.BAA24151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Free... Going into my e-waste pile if no one wants it. Just thought > Id ask... (a) Where is it geographically? (b) What is the host interface? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 1 00:38:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 01:38:58 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E28482.1070205@neurotica.com> On 12/31/2012 04:39 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like > v8, >> should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. > > BitSavers looks like it has 11M 4.0 in a 19MB virtual tape, here: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11m/ > Assuming that is the right one to go for? > > I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and > non-plus? Oh jeeze, lots of stuff...I'm quite drunk at the moment, but I seem to recall..named directories being a biggie. Johnny (if he's montoring) can expound. I ran 11M (non-plus) on an 11/34 for many years. Rock solid, fast, very nice OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 01:05:47 2013 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 00:05:47 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Win, Yes, bad RAM could definitely cause that. The board you have was manufactured by ON THREE, which got its start as an Apple III users group. Once Apple turned its back on the III, ON THREE stepped up and began producing its own hardware and software for the computer. Apple had advertised the III as being expandable up to 512K, but never released a board larger than 256K. As the ON THREE engineers discovered, it required some new ROMs and additional addressing lines, but they got it working. That 512K board is fairly rare and sought after by III collectors, as SOS and big programs like Pascal can really benefit from the extra room. I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards for the III (256K and 128K, though - not 512K). I could loan you one for troubleshooting purposes, if you're interested. I wrote a quick blog entry a while back about ON THREE's card: http://www.6502lane.net/2011/01/17/a-look-at-on-threes-512k-memory-board-for-the-apple-iii/ Also, I have a PDF version of the user manual that came with it. The links in that blog entry are dead, but I can upload it, if you want. - Mike On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Mike, > > Another follow up that probably sheds a bit more light on my Apple III > issue. I tried copying some additional disk images today. I tried the > CFFA SOS image, but it exhibited the same behavior as the other SOS > image...the floppy drive spins for about 3 sec and then nothing. On a > whim, I tried the RAM test image. It worked and brought up the RAM test > screen and began the test. It stops and indicates bad RAM where shown in > the pic in the imgur link below. There appears to be third party RAM in > this III. Is that common? Is there a way to test without that RAM that > would be recommended? I did reset all of the RAM chips on the board, but > it still fails at the same location. > > http://imgur.com/a/c40m0 > > On the bright side, I'm thinking this is a good sign for the floppy > drive...the down side is obviously RAM issues. > > Thanks, > > Win From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 1 01:31:43 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:31:43 +1300 Subject: My Sinclair ZX81 on YouTube Message-ID: A New Year's look at another one of my classic rest home residents - that triumph of British minimalism, the Sinclair ZX81. http://youtu.be/YcE_HqCOTf4 Terry (Tez) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 1 02:10:30 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 08:10:30 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > Sent: 01 January 2013 01:44 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > > > > I made the same experience when I performed a "DEC-format-marathon" > > with ten > > ST-225 drives which were neither DEC-labeled nor where DEC-formatted > before. > > Most of my disk drives where successfully formatted after having > > entered the drive parameters for the "TEST 70" procedure, but in case > > of some drives, the procedure was aborted. These drives where not > > successfully recognised as RD31 and no format was performed by my > microVAX-2000 in these cases. > > What I found out is that the drives which were not recognised as > > RD31's were drives with some bad blocks detected when formatted with a > PC. > > Can anybody else comment on or has made that experience? > > > > I successfully formatted several oddball non-DEC-branded drives rescued > from a skip (dumpster) using a VS2000. It was a long time ago and I don't > remember the details but I suspect some at least had a list of bad blocks on > the label. > I seem to recall that I did not have any way of knowing what the correct > parameters were and I found some by extrapolating from the example in the > manual and by trial and error. I agree with the general view that they > should be jumpered as DS3 for the internal drive. > > I eventually made a new drive cable so that I could have a "hot swappable" > disk outside the case. That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. This worked great until I came upon one particular > drive which, when I pushed the connectors onto it, the VS2000 PSU promptly > switched itself off. I was somewhat puzzled as I was using an external PSU > for the disk and could not have been overloading the VS2000 PSU or so I > thought. I pulled off the connectors, power cycled the machine and tried > connecting the drive again and the same thing happened. Not to be > defeated, I tried connecting all the cables up and then powering up the > VS2000. This time the PSU tried harder, the machine powered up and one > of the wires in the data cable turned itself into a heating element, melted > and nearly set fire to its insulation. It seems that one of the wires in the > data lead to the external drive has a not very well protected +5V on it and at > least one drive variant shorts this to ground... > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 1 02:33:17 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 08:33:17 -0000 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <50E252A0.3040205@verizon.net> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> <50E252A0.3040205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <047701cde7fa$a77c3db0$f674b910$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison > Sent: 01 January 2013 03:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space > > On 12/31/2012 04:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like v8, > should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. > > > > -Dave > > > I have RSTS on RL02 so it must fit on 10mb! > > RT11 fits on anything, the whole build kit is two RL02s (boot and kits) > > I know of none that do not fit. RSTS and RSX are big and might have to be > trimmed > a little or some optional part left off. I am not sure how you would do that. I am following these instructions: http://9track.net/pdp11/rsx4_sysgen. The trouble is that after restoring the RSX-11M+ 4.2 tape, when I reboot from the disk it gives repeated disk allocation errors, presumably through lack of space. Is there a step that needs to be added when first restoring the tape to the hard disk? Regards Rob I do know we ran all of them > off three > RM03s (one per OS) on GRAF an 11/70. > > > Allison From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 1 04:25:25 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 23:25:25 +1300 Subject: My Sinclair ZX81 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps...the link above will not work as I had to reload the video. Some audio was missing. Try this one... http://youtu.be/7KsuTg1qHIE Terry (Tez) From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Jan 1 05:46:18 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:46:18 +0100 Subject: Wintersale in the Netherlands Message-ID: <201301011146.r01BkIai002837@ls-al.eu> Hi all, I'm cleaning up the overflowing attic. Most of it will probably be rather painfully expensive to ship, so I guess it might be more for the Dutch people on this list. Some items could be shipped abroad, though. Contact me off-list for details. All prices listed below are exclusive of shipping costs. Book: UNIX Programming Environment soft cover, 15 EURO USB KVM: Sweex USB and Audio KVM switch for two machines, 10 EURO PCs: AMD XP 1900+ with Radeon x850x, 50 EURO Compaq/HP D51s EVO, 25 EURO Fujitsu/Siemens p300 with AHA2940 and 20GB DAT, 25 EURO Apple: PowerMac G4 AGP with white Apple keyboard, 25 EURO SGI: Indy with Indycam, original keyboard/mouse and SGI 20" CRT, 25 EURO Sun: GDM5410 21" Flat Trinitron CRT, 10 EURO Ultra 5 333MHz/400MB, 15 EURO Ultra 10 440MHz/768MB, 25 EURO regards, reiche From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jan 1 05:54:06 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:54:06 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: [..] In the meantime I've compared the binaries from both readouts, they are identical so I think both attempts have worked. @Mouse: it seems that the Console Code in the rom is at 2004685a and upward. The only two occurences of the SCN2681 Register Adresses ( > 20100000 Channel A mode registers (MRA1, MRA2) (R/W) > 20100004 Channel A status register (R) > Channel A clock select register (CSRA) (W) > 20100008 Reserved (R) > Channel A command register (CRA) > 2010000C Channel A receive holding register (RHRA) (R) > Channel A transmit holding register (THRA) (W) > 20100010 Input port change register (IPCR) (R) > Auxiliary control register (ACR) (W) > 20100014 Channel A/B interrupt status register (ISR) (R) > Channel A/B interrupt mask register (IMR) (W) > 20100018 Counter/timer interval register upper (CTU) (R) > Counter/timer interval register upper (CTUR) (W) > 2010001C Counter/timer interval register lower (CTL) (R) > Counter/timer interval register lower (CTLR) (W) > 20100020 Channel B mode register (MRB1, MRB2) (R/W) > 20100024 Channel B status register (SRB) (R) > Channel B clock select register (CSRB) (W) > 20100028 Reserved (R) > Channel B command register (CRB) (W) > 2010002C Channel B receive holding register (RHRB) (R) > Channel B transmit holding register (THRB) (W) > 20100030 Reserved (R/W) > 20100034 Input port register (R) > Output port configuration register (OPCR) (W) > 20100038 Start counter command register (R) > Set output port bits command register (W) > 2010003c Stop counter command register (R) > Reset output port bits commnad register (W) ) are in that region, but again, there are a mass of instructions where the mnemonic sys nothing to me, I have to lookup every single instruction in the VAX Assembly language manual.. that's not much of fun when one tries to understand what happens there. 20046855: movp $10,$4,$3c 20046859: halt 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp 2004685d: movl $1,r5 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 20046864: movl (r4),r1 20046867: bisb2 $8,1003(r1) 2004686c: bicb2 $2,1003(r1) 20046871: bicb2 $4,1003(r1) 20046876: movl $a,1034(r1) 2004687b: movzwl $0320,102c(r1) 20046882: mtpr $15,$12 20046885: mtpr $00000040,$18 2004688c: movl 0000(r4),r3 20046891: movab 0x20044f66,r2 20046898: pushl r3 2004689a: calls $1,0x20046620 200468a1: movl *$20100004,r0 200468a8: blbc r0,0x200468e8 200468ab: bicl3 $ffffff00,*$2010000c,r0 200468b7: cmpl r0,$3 200468ba: bneq 0x200468e8 -------- Addr 2004685a disas> Are you able to find somthing like putchar() and getchar() there so that I can call those routines from netbsd's bootloader? I think the rtVAX300 will boot at least the loader, know, the real work comes next... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 1 08:11:22 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 09:11:22 -0500 Subject: SBC V2 PCBs have arrived! Message-ID: <00b501cde829$e0e80e60$a2b82b20$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Good news! A new batch of N8VEM SBC V2 PCBs have arrived! In addition I just received an email from the PCB manufacturer that the N8VEM ECB backplane PCBs have been shipped. They should be here in a couple of days. I am guessing later this week. Here are some instructions on how to build the N8VEM SBC V2 for the total beginner but are useful for most any builder http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=Building%20the%20N8VEM%20for%20the%20Total%20Beginner The N8VEM SBC V2 and ECB backplane are $20 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Thanks and have a happy new year! Andrew Lynch From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 08:49:08 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:49:08 -0200 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. ` IDC female board edge for cable crimp...one is 20 pin (?) and other 34 pin (it is an old floppy drive cable, same as 5 1/4 floppies) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 09:01:01 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 13:01:01 -0200 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? References: Message-ID: <81BD5C59F7BC44629C032511376B1FC5@tababook> > I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board > these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still > available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards It is not hard to find them. Common 4164 and 41256 RAM chips... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 10:43:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 08:43:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> Message-ID: <20130101084002.B29925@shell.lmi.net> > > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the > > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > IDC female board edge for cable crimp...one is 20 pin (?) and other 34 > pin (it is an old floppy drive cable, same as 5 1/4 floppies) ALMOST. IBM used a twist in their hard drive cables for drive select, etc., although IT IS NOT THE SAME TWIST AS FLOPPIES. You CAN use a straight cable if you are willing to set the drive-select and maybe other jumpers correctly. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:55:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:55:59 +0000 Subject: Marsplot Ballwriter pens for Calcomp 104X, 1023 Message-ID: <50E3151F.8000900@gmail.com> I have a packet of five BallWriter pens, part number 40C1 06-9 (is 06-9 the date code?) if any one has a use for them they are theirs for the postage, but as I am in the UK it might be a few dollars. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 11:22:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20130101092153.A30604@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Rob Jarratt wrote: > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. "card edge" From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 11:36:41 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:36:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > @Mouse: it seems that the Console Code in the rom is at 2004685a and > upward. The only two occurences of the SCN2681 Register Adresses > [...] are in that region, [...] > 20046855: movp $10,$4,$3c > 20046859: halt > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > 20046867: bisb2 $8,1003(r1) > [...] Well, the first two lines above are nonsense - movp cannot take literal/immediate data for all three arguments. This is almost certainly due to 20046855 being midway through some other instruction; looking at it myself, I see that segment as being 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) 20046857: ret 20046858: movzwl $0,5e24(r2) 2004685d: movl $1,r5 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 20046864: movl (r4),r1 which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed disassembling it that way gives 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) 20046857: ret 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp 2004685d: movl $1,r5 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 20046864: movl (r4),r1 which makes a whole lot more sense. > Are you able to find somthing like putchar() and getchar() there so > that I can call those routines from netbsd's bootloader? Haven't found them yet, but I haven't looked very much yet. I'll poke around and, if I manage to find anything, will report back. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:38:27 2013 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 09:38:27 -0800 Subject: 2GB Iomega Ditto Drive In-Reply-To: <201301010611.BAA24151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> <201301010611.BAA24151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50E31F13.7020404@gmail.com> On 12/31/2012 10:11 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Free... Going into my e-waste pile if no one wants it. Just thought >> Id ask... > (a) Where is it geographically? > (b) What is the host interface? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Sorry, I should have updated the posting. Its been claimed. It has a parallel host interface. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jan 1 12:07:11 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 19:07:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > @Mouse: it seems that the Console Code in the rom is at 2004685a and > > upward. The only two occurences of the SCN2681 Register Adresses > > [...] are in that region, [...] > > > 20046855: movp $10,$4,$3c > > 20046859: halt > > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > 20046867: bisb2 $8,1003(r1) > > [...] > > Well, the first two lines above are nonsense - movp cannot take > literal/immediate data for all three arguments. This is almost > certainly due to 20046855 being midway through some other instruction; > looking at it myself, I see that segment as being > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > 20046857: ret > 20046858: movzwl $0,5e24(r2) > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even > movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed > disassembling it that way gives > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > 20046857: ret > 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > which makes a whole lot more sense. > > > Are you able to find somthing like putchar() and getchar() there so > > that I can call those routines from netbsd's bootloader? > > Haven't found them yet, but I haven't looked very much yet. I'll poke > around and, if I manage to find anything, will report back. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Cool. I don't even know what the heck an entry mask is. Sorry, never done assembler on such an "big" machine. There are two occurences of "0c 00 10 20" in the code, at 200468b2 and 20046932. 0x201000C is the Address of the SCN2681 Transmit Buffer/Receiver Holding register so I think the routines should be there. The Address ofi the Channel A Status Register 20100004 is also appearing in this area (200468a3, 20046923, later at 20046c82, 20046cca and 2004c43c). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Jan 1 12:23:11 2013 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 19:23:11 +0100 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> On 2013-01-01 19:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 12/31/2012 04:39 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> >> Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like >> >v8, >>> >>should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. >> > >> >BitSavers looks like it has 11M 4.0 in a 19MB virtual tape, here: >> >http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11m/ >> >Assuming that is the right one to go for? >> > >> >I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and >> >non-plus? > Oh jeeze, lots of stuff...I'm quite drunk at the moment, but I seem to > recall..named directories being a biggie. Johnny (if he's montoring) > can expound. Since my name was mentioned... There are plenty of differences. Virtual terminals for one. Which also means that only M+ have batch queues. Named directories. Logical names. Variable send/receive. Secondary pool. Split I/D space support. Supervisor mode libraries. Accounting. Online reconfiguration. Mixed massbuses (probably not that big win today, when people run simulators anyway). Memory is managed slightly differently. I think that only M+ have disk shadowing and disk caching (also perhaps less used in emulated systems). Lots of tasks end up having more memory available in M+, which means they can handle more data, or have more capabilities. This also affects things like SYSGEN, which in M+ is rather more user friendly. There are probably more things, if I think some more. But this gives a fair idea. M+ is basically more. > I ran 11M (non-plus) on an 11/34 for many years. Rock solid, fast, > very nice OS. Agree. 11M is fine. It's just that if you can run M+, I'd recommend it. But it do require much more of the hardware. It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, that 11M do not. 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) Johnny From wilson at dbit.com Tue Jan 1 12:24:12 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 13:24:12 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <50E28482.1070205@neurotica.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> <50E28482.1070205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130101182412.GA25801@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 01:38:58AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 12/31/2012 04:39 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and >> non-plus? > > Oh jeeze, lots of stuff...I'm quite drunk at the moment, but I seem to >recall..named directories being a biggie. CON (i.e. device configuration at runtime) was another important thing. If I understand right, the main point of the rewrite was to support the 11/74 mP machines (where the point is uptime so they wanted to be able to remove switchable hardware for repair w/o shutdown/reboot), but then they shipped the new SW even after they decided to sit on the HW. (The mP features are covered in the doc set so evidently it was a late decision.) John Wilson D Bit From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Jan 1 12:27:25 2013 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 19:27:25 +0100 Subject: Installing RSX (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E32A8D.4010403@update.uu.se> On 2013-01-01 19:00, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison >> >Sent: 01 January 2013 03:06 >> >To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> >Subject: Re: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space >> > >> >On 12/31/2012 04:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> > > Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, > like v8, >> >should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. >>> > > >>> > > -Dave >>> > > >> >I have RSTS on RL02 so it must fit on 10mb! >> > >> >RT11 fits on anything, the whole build kit is two RL02s (boot and kits) >> > >> >I know of none that do not fit. RSTS and RSX are big and might have to be >> >trimmed >> >a little or some optional part left off. > > I am not sure how you would do that. I am following these instructions: > http://9track.net/pdp11/rsx4_sysgen. > > The trouble is that after restoring the RSX-11M+ 4.2 tape, when I reboot > from the disk it gives repeated disk allocation errors, presumably through > lack of space. Is there a step that needs to be added when first restoring > the tape to the hard disk? Not sure what errors you are seeing, but it sounds weird. Anyway, the normal way to run M+ from an RL02 was/is to use the pregenned system for an RL02, which has all the necessary bits stuffed in, and everything set up. Ready to go. Generating your own system for running on an RL02 takes some careful consideration... Johnny From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:08:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 19:08:19 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31 December 2012 04:27, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now that is seriously interesting! I knew there was a reason I was keeping > up with this thread! Thanks! [*Chuffed*] I ought to have given due credit to another of the Giant Brains behind FreeGEM, John Elliott, who is also on the list now, too. John is a hero and a major force in PC-GEM, CP/M and Amstrad-related development, emulation and various other areas, too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:33:15 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 19:33:15 +0000 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 21 December 2012 20:34, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: Well utter nonsense usually does have that affect. You're point I'll take it is that Satan/Lucifer is a *product* of the Jewish/Christian scriptures. But conflating Christianity w/Satanism leaves something to be desired as to valid logic. That's ok though. The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of the early forms of paganism, stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. > I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. You ask her). So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She stated to the effect that all those old world gods were manifestations/representations of "the Divine". So why aren't they all just manifestations of ol' Beelzebub I ask? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no point trying to explain it to you - you wouldn't understand; our previous email conversations have demonstrated that. As a happily god-free atheist, I've been called a satanist before, myself. The typical god-botherer is too stupid to understand that not believing in their preferred fictional sky-fairy doesn't mean that I believe in a different fictional sky-fairy. The notion of not believing that there are /any/ fictional sky-fairies at all is too difficult for many of them to comprehend. And since you believe that your mythical magic pixie-cum-dead-Jew-on-a-stick made the universe in a week 6000 years ago, that very very strongly suggests that you are not one of the smarter ones. :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jan 1 13:32:48 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:32:48 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 06:18:19PM -0800, steve wrote: > Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance > capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. Reuseable > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, your customer wants to pay for > that? No way. You want nice readable code, change the incentives. If you write release-once-then-run-away code, this may hold true. But a lot of code is written for systems that are maintained for more that one release. Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. Kind regards, Alex. > --- On Wed, 12/26/12, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > From: Terry Stewart > > Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2012, 11:30 AM > > Seen on one of my Google groups > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 14:00:32 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:00:32 -0200 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> <20130101084002.B29925@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <878B48E2A6A64590936DC06D123ED105@tababook> Thanks for the correction, Fred! I forgot to add that :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work >> > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the >> > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. > > On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> IDC female board edge for cable crimp...one is 20 pin (?) and other >> 34 >> pin (it is an old floppy drive cable, same as 5 1/4 floppies) > > ALMOST. > IBM used a twist in their hard drive cables for drive select, etc., > although IT IS NOT THE SAME TWIST AS FLOPPIES. > > You CAN use a straight cable if you are willing to set the drive-select > and maybe other jumpers correctly. > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 1 14:11:36 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:11:36 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> On 01/01/2013 11:32 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors > and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious > about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. I once wrote a text editor as a throw-away code project in order to learn the operation of some of the more arcane instructions of a particular machine. It was full of odd vector instructions and satisfied me that I could understand the descriptions of the instructions detailed in the hardware manual. Shortly after that, I moved on to another venture. Imagine my surprise when I discovered fully 10 years later, that my little learning project was still being used as the standard editor! The instruction set of the architecture had changed, with many of the instructions that I had used being tossed on the scrap heap. Someone had very carefully replaced them with subroutines that did the equivalent thing. I was dumbfounded and horrified. Moral: If you write throw-away code, keep it to yourself and don't let another breathing human being see it. They might try to use it. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 14:24:26 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:24:26 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 January 2013 20:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/01/2013 11:32 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors >> and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious >> about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. > > > I once wrote a text editor as a throw-away code project in order to learn > the operation of some of the more arcane instructions of a particular > machine. It was full of odd vector instructions and satisfied me that I > could understand the descriptions of the instructions detailed in the > hardware manual. Shortly after that, I moved on to another venture. > > Imagine my surprise when I discovered fully 10 years later, that my little > learning project was still being used as the standard editor! The > instruction set of the architecture had changed, with many of the > instructions that I had used being tossed on the scrap heap. Someone had > very carefully replaced them with subroutines that did the equivalent thing. > > I was dumbfounded and horrified. > > Moral: If you write throw-away code, keep it to yourself and don't let > another breathing human being see it. They might try to use it. Excellent. That deserves to me much more widely-circulated! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 14:41:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:41:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130101122807.O31676@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Moral: If you write throw-away code, keep it to yourself and don't let > another breathing human being see it. They might try to use it. In 1970, I objected to using 2 digit decimal year numbers, but I was ordered to do it. "None of this will still be around." "Wait, and put comments in AFTER the program is complete." "Why are you wasting time adding comments to a program that is done? We need you to get to work on the next project." I was assigned to several man years to convert graphing packages from CalComp to SC/SD Datagraphics. Instead of rewriting them, I intercepted the lowest level calls (N/S/E/W/up/down?) and re-directed them to low level calls in the Sc/SD routines. Finished in 2 weeks. Got chewed-out for not using the entire time that had been contracted for. We did enough things right (such as that) during that year that the guvmint contract gave us a bonus that averaged $2K per person, for the company to distribute as they saw fit. I received a gift certificate for a supermarket frozen turkey. Because of "man on the moon day", we "ran out" of holidays, and were told to use vacation time for X-Mas. I called in sick. In 1999, when I was contacted to help "repair" my code, I refused. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 1 15:38:59 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:38:59 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130101122807.O31676@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <20130101122807.O31676@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E35773.9030400@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/01/13 3:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ... > In 1999, when I was contacted to help "repair" my code, I > refused. > The software business has only gone downhill since then, as far as I can tell. Thanks for the stories :) --Toby From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 1 16:20:46 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:20:46 -0600 Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <50E248E9.40506@gmail.com> References: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> <50E248E9.40506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E3613E.1070603@brutman.com> On 12/31/2012 8:24 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's at the other end of the cable? It's been so long that I don't > remember. I assume it goes via some molded strain-relief widget at the > keyboard end, but does it terminate within the keyboard with a plug that > *is* replaceable (or perhaps wires soldered straight to a PCB)? > > If so, personally I'd replace the whole molded cable and plug with > modern parts, but keep the original cable and faulty connector to pass > on to a future owner. Then I'd have a working keyboard, but a subsequent > owner could return it to a partly-functional original "museum piece" if > they wanted (or hack the plug off and replace that if they so desired, > but at least I still would have done my bit to preserve things). > > cheers > > Jules It is a cable assembly - the other end terminates in a nice Berg connector. Since it is hidden in the keyboard case all sorts of nasty hackish things can be done without detection. Here is a photo: http://www.brutman.com/pics/IBM_5150_Keyboard_cable.jpg Like you suggested, I am holding the faulty parts - I do that as a matter of policy. I might not be able to make a fix today, but in the future I might or I will run into somebody who can. Substituting in something else is a good workaround for now. I don't need these two keyboards operating at the moment so they'll just go back on the shelf with a tag. It does annoy me that a second one went bad after just a little usage. I suspect something dries out over time and makes it more fragile. Regards, Mike From wheagy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 17:09:17 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:09:17 -0500 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? Message-ID: Mike, Good info, thanks. I actually have a copy of the ON THREE manual...I forget where I found it or why I have it, because I wasn't aware that I had that board until a couple of days ago. Thanks for the offer of the loaner board. I may take you up on that, but let me try using the ON THREE manual and making sure the board is installed correctly and and everything is seated properly. And, if I can pinpoint the bad chips, I might try ordering some replacements to see if it can be fixed. If I eventually do swap in one of your loaner boards, I'm wondering if I can roll the other changes back? It looks like there were a number of mods made to the motherboard to accomodate the 512K board....including new ROMs. I certainly don't have the original ROMs to put back. At any rate, my holiday vacation time and the disproportionate amount of time I've been able to spend on this hobby, is about to end, so it may take me a bit of time to get to all of it. But thanks very much for all the info, I feel like I have a much clearer picture of how the III works and what I need to do. Win Hi Win, Yes, bad RAM could definitely cause that. The board you have was manufactured by ON THREE, which got its start as an Apple III users group. Once Apple turned its back on the III, ON THREE stepped up and began producing its own hardware and software for the computer. Apple had advertised the III as being expandable up to 512K, but never released a board larger than 256K. As the ON THREE engineers discovered, it required some new ROMs and additional addressing lines, but they got it working. That 512K board is fairly rare and sought after by III collectors, as SOS and big programs like Pascal can really benefit from the extra room. I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards for the III (256K and 128K, though - not 512K). I could loan you one for troubleshooting purposes, if you're interested. I wrote a quick blog entry a while back about ON THREE's card: http://www.6502lane.net/2011/01/17/a-look-at-on-threes-512k-memory-board-for-the-apple-iii/ Also, I have a PDF version of the user manual that came with it. The links in that blog entry are dead, but I can upload it, if you want. - Mike From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Jan 1 17:51:36 2013 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:51:36 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2013-01-01 12:36:41 -0500, Mouse wrote: > which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even > movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed > disassembling it that way gives > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > 20046857: ret > 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > which makes a whole lot more sense. Just to mention: If you're using binutils's objdump to disassemble the ROM, you can use (multiple times) -M entry:0x.... to mark certain addresses as entry masks (thus, as function start addresses.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Alles sollte so einfach wie m?glich gemacht sein. the second : Aber nicht einfacher. (Einstein) From spc at conman.org Tue Jan 1 17:58:49 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:58:49 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130101235848.GA19622@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Holm Tiffe once stated: > Mouse wrote: > > > which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even > > movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed > > disassembling it that way gives > > > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > > 20046857: ret > > 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 > > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > > > which makes a whole lot more sense. > > > Cool. I don't even know what the heck an entry mask is. > Sorry, never done assembler on such an "big" machine. On the VAX, each procedure (as called by CALLG or CALLS) starts with a 16-bit word that denotes which registers to save on the stack (each bit flags a register to save). It's not an actual instruction. -spc From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 19:35:14 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:35:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Cool. I don't even know what the heck an entry mask is. You might want to read up on VAX machine/assembly language, then, before you try to dig too much deeper into picking apart this binary blob. You can learn a lot without, it's true, but it will help substantially. As for entry masks in particular...the VAX has two different kinds of routine calls. There's the simple sort, which call with BSBB, BSBW, or JSB, and return with RSB. These are pretty close to the kind of call most RISC hardware has, a call being "do a jump, but push what would otherwise be the next instruction's PC on the stack first" and a return being "pull an address off the stack and jump to it". (The differences among the three call instructions is how the target instruction is addressed.) I'll call these `JSB calls'. Arguments, if any, can be passed pretty much anywhere: in registers, on the stack, in fixed locations, whatever the caller and the callee agree on. There's also the complex sort, which call with CALLS or CALLG and return with RET. These not only transfer flow-of-control but do a bunch of other stuff, too, notably meddling with AP and FP. They take the argument list in memory - on the stack for CALLS, anywhere in memory for CALLG. CALLS also removes the args from the stack automatically on return - the stack frame created by CALL[SG] includes a bit that tells RET whether to pop the arglist. I'll call these `CALLx calls'. JSB calls are substantially cheaper, but provide less assist. Most VAX toolchain and development software (compilers, debuggers, etc) assumes CALLx calls; in particular, stack frames are generally assumed to look like what CALLS/CALLG generate. As for entry masks, one of the things CALLS/CALLG do is save callee-used registers (and potentially, do a few other things, such as turning integer-overflow traps on or off). The entry mask says what registers to save on entry (and restore on exit); it's a 16-bit bitmask. (There are a few bits that would otherwise correspond to registers that it doesn't make any sense to save and restore, such as PC; these are the bits that control things like integer overflow trap enables.) The entry point address passed to CALLS/CALLG is that of the entry mask; execution starts two bytes further along. When running for the VAX, the e command disassembles two bytes as an entry mask (there's a note late in the README about this). > There are two occurences of "0c 00 10 20" in the code, at 200468b2 > and 20046932. Each of those appears to be real. I'm currently annotating every mfpr/mtpr instruction, or at least those with constant register number operands, as to which register it's referring to; once that's done I'll search out all the 201000xx references and annotate them. I'll make the disassembler save file and the resulting text version available.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 19:44:34 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:44:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even >> movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and >> indeed disassembling it that way gives [...] which makes a whole lot >> more sense. > Just to mention: If you're using binutils's objdump to disassemble > the ROM, you can use (multiple times) -M entry:0x.... to mark > certain addresses as entry masks (thus, as function start addresses.) Holm's email which I was excerpting included two lines (which I didn't quote) which made it clear that disassembly was done with my disassembler, which is capable of recording, for each byte in the file, what it is: instruction, entry mask, data, text string, etc. It also supports annotating the disassembly with comments; it is specifically designed for making sense out of an otherwise undocumented binary (it was first written to deal with a captured piece of malware). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 1 22:33:08 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:33:08 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <50E342F8.5020607 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > Moral: If you write throw-away code [...] Moral: it is not throw-away code, if you don't actually throw it away. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 1 23:01:18 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:01:18 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> On 01/01/2013 08:33 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <50E342F8.5020607 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> Moral: If you write throw-away code [...] > > Moral: it is not throw-away code, if you don't actually throw it away. To be honest, even my throwaway code is well-commented and clean. What surprised me was that about half of the instructions that I made use of were no longer part of the current architecture. The editor served the purpose to demonstrate some oddball instructions (microprogramming gone mad) rather than offer a full-featured editor for production use. What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my original code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of writing a better editor from the ground up. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 23:03:54 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:03:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm currently annotating every mfpr/mtpr instruction, or at least > those with constant register number operands, as to which register > it's referring to; once that's done I'll search out all the 201000xx > references and annotate them. I'll make the disassembler save file > and the resulting text version available.... Okay, ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/rtvax300/ contains rtvax300.bin The binary file Holm made available. rtvax300.dis The disassembler save file (based at 0x20040000) rtvax300.txt The text-form disassembly corresponding to the .dis file. I believe I've found the console routines. I've defined symbols for them - search for cons_ in the .txt to find them and their uses. The code you're looking for is probably the stuff in [20044ebf..20044f66), or [20044ebf..2004504d) if you're also interested in the code for using the other half of the chip too. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 1 23:08:49 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 05:08:49 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102050849.GB8777@zoho.com> On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 09:01:18PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/01/2013 08:33 PM, Richard wrote: > >In article <50E342F8.5020607 at sydex.com>, > > Chuck Guzis writes: > > > >>Moral: If you write throw-away code [...] > > > >Moral: it is not throw-away code, if you don't actually throw it away. > > To be honest, even my throwaway code is well-commented and clean. That's the sign of a good coder. There is no disposable code. > What surprised me was that about half of the instructions that I > made use of were no longer part of the current architecture. The > editor served the purpose to demonstrate some oddball instructions > (microprogramming gone mad) rather than offer a full-featured editor > for production use. I don't have that problem. All the instructions I have used are still in the current version. We do things differently now but the old stuff still works. > What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my > original code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of > writing a better editor from the ground up. People will go to almost any length to cut and paste or hack something together so they can proudly say to management they haven't reinvented the wheel. Usually, it's much smarter, cheaper, and even faster to engineer and deploy a new wheel. I've thrown out a lot of other people's code against managements' wishes, threats, etc. I have never regretted it and sometimes the brass even thanks me for doing it afterwards. But never beforehand! -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From spc at conman.org Tue Jan 1 23:13:46 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:13:46 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my original > code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of writing a > better editor from the ground up. The current "groupthink" among younger programmers is "THOU SHALT NOT REWRITE A PROGRAM FROM SCRATCH!" Also, "YOU ARE AN IDIOT FOR REIMPLEMENTING; WHY ARE YOU NOT IMPROVING AN EXISTING IMPLEMENTATION (preferrably, one that I use/wrote/trying to force as a standard)?" I think both of those thoughts might be in play here ... -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers these days ... ) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 2 02:17:26 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:17:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 Message-ID: I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bthomas at brothom.nl Wed Jan 2 03:54:28 2013 From: bthomas at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:54:28 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> Op 1-1-2013 20:32, Alexander Schreiber schreef: > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 06:18:19PM -0800, steve wrote: >> Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance >> capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. Reuseable >> code is about 3x the cost of a point design, your customer wants to pay for >> that? No way. You want nice readable code, change the incentives. > > If you write release-once-then-run-away code, this may hold true. But a lot > of code is written for systems that are maintained for more that one release. > > Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors > and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious > about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. > Not-reusable code does not imply badly maintainable code. You could write high quality code to solve a problem in the shortest possible way (both in code-writing time and execution time) or you could write a more generic approach that could also be used to solve a similar problem. I think the former is an example of what Steve ment. I had a guy working for me who spent several days on adding a database to a program to make everything in the program configurable. Most of the configuration items would have done fine as a program constant IMO. The others could have easily be set by commandline parameters. IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the costs involved. Regards, Bert From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 05:10:53 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:10:53 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > I'm currently annotating every mfpr/mtpr instruction, or at least > > those with constant register number operands, as to which register > > it's referring to; once that's done I'll search out all the 201000xx > > references and annotate them. I'll make the disassembler save file > > and the resulting text version available.... > > Okay, ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/rtvax300/ contains > > rtvax300.bin > The binary file Holm made available. > > rtvax300.dis > The disassembler save file (based at 0x20040000) > > rtvax300.txt > The text-form disassembly corresponding to the .dis file. > > I believe I've found the console routines. I've defined symbols for > them - search for cons_ in the .txt to find them and their uses. The > code you're looking for is probably the stuff in [20044ebf..20044f66), > or [20044ebf..2004504d) if you're also interested in the code for using > the other half of the chip too. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Hmm... I've got the files and tried to build a netbsd-boot thats saying something..but no luck jet.. I don't understand what's going wrong here, since it seems that the code in boot.c isn't reached at all, every time I'm trying to boot from eza0 I get this: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00001801 >>> >>> e/l/n:16 r0 G 00000000 20042F75 G 00000001 00FFEA00 G 00000002 00001000 G 00000003 00FFBA00 G 00000004 00000000 G 00000005 00000000 G 00000006 FFFFFFFF G 00000007 FFFFFFFF G 00000008 00000800 G 00000009 00001800 G 0000000A 00001800 G 0000000B 00000000 G 0000000C 00000200 G 0000000D FFFFFFFF G 0000000E 00001800 G 0000000F 00001801 ?26 ILL ADR >>> The Startup code in boot/common/srt0.S looks like this: #include "../include/asm.h" /* * Auto-moving startup code for standalone programs. Can be loaded * (almost) anywhere in memory but moves itself to the position * it is linked for. Must be started at first position, recommended * is phys addr 0 (boot loads programs at 0, but starts them at the * position set in a.out header. */ .globl nisse # pass -e nisse to ld gives OK start addr .set nisse,0 ALTENTRY(start) nop;nop; movl $_C_LABEL(start), %sp # Probably safe place for stack pushr $0x1fff # save for later usage subl3 $_C_LABEL(start), $_C_LABEL(edata), %r0 movab _C_LABEL(start), %r1 # get where we are movl $_C_LABEL(start), %r3 # get where we want to be cmpl %r1,%r3 # are we where we want to be? beql relocated # already relocated, skip copy movc3 %r0,(%r1),(%r3) # copy subl3 $_C_LABEL(edata), $_C_LABEL(end), %r2 movc5 $0,(%r3),$0,%r2,(%r3) # Zero bss movpsl -(%sp) pushl $relocated rei relocated: # now relocation is done !!! movl %sp,_C_LABEL(bootregs) # *bootregs calls $0, _C_LABEL(Xmain) # Were here! halt # no return So is should call Xmain after the relocation is done. I hacked a little in boot.c: void Xmain(void) { int io; int j, nu; unsigned char * ucp; u_long marks[MARK_MAX]; extern const char bootprog_rev[]; ucp=(unsigned char *)0x201ffffe; //LED Register io = 0; skip = 1; *ucp=0; l1: goto l1; autoconf(); ..it should loop before doing something (besides of displaying an "F" in the LED Display (~0), but every time it halts on 1800.. I'm trying to compile this with the older netbsd (5.2?) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 06:52:49 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 10:52:49 -0200 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> > -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> > these days ... ) There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out and make it leaner. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 07:15:45 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:15:45 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> Message-ID: On 2 January 2013 12:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> >> these days ... ) > > > There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so > badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out and > make it leaner. http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/a-tale-of-two-rewrites/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 07:32:16 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:32:16 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:54:28 +0100 Bert Thomas wrote: > I had a guy working for me who spent several days on adding a database > to a program to make everything in the program configurable. Most of the > configuration items would have done fine as a program constant IMO. The > others could have easily be set by commandline parameters. > > IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if > the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the > costs involved. Depends. By adding that "overkill" that programmer solved the problem once and for all. If he had it done as a constant, the customer may wanted that constant to become a variable in a furure release. That woud cause additional efforts. The code would need to be touched again. But if it is already a variable read from a database, its just a matter of adding e.g. a GUI knob for the variable. Been there, done that. Many times. ;-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 10:22:20 2013 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 08:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/30/12, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > To: "cctalk" > Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:04 PM > > In article <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic at web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, > ? ? steve > writes: > > > Engineers get paid by generating code that works within > the performance > > capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how > it looks. > > This is only true for one-off contract work type > software.? When > you're working on a product that has a lifetime longer than > a single > release, it is very different.? Every company I've > worked at has > considered the lifetime of the software to span beyond the > first > release and "how the code looks" was most certainly > important to them. > > > Reuseable > > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > Based on what?? Again, this is not in line with my > experience as a > person paid to write software.? my guess if you never wrote reuseable code http://agile.dzone.com/news/reuse-myth-can-you-afford reuseable code is define as code that can be used without any code changes across many different unrelated applications, code that implements floating point algorithm is an example. Digital filters that can handle fixed point inputs (with different word sizes), floating point inputs, as well as arrays is another example of reuseable code. The 3x cost has to deal with not just writing the code but testing it (all the various paths in different applications). You can't just write code, have a code review, and then test in one application and magically call it "reuseable". To test reuseability to have to test the code's ability to be reused. Code that just can be used in the same application, with just minor updates is not what is known as reuseable in the software industry. Although some refer to it as vertically reuseable as opposed to horitizally reuseable, but that is just to satisfy naive managers. > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > ? ???The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ???The Terminals Wiki > > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 10:56:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 09:56:42 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> Message-ID: In article <50E403D4.6070904 at brothom.nl>, Bert Thomas writes: > IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if > the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the > costs involved. ...which is why "Extreme Programming" advocates embrace YAGNI. (Look it up on wikipedia.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 11:07:38 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hmm... I've got the files and tried to build a netbsd-boot thats > saying something..but no luck jet.. I wouldn't worry too much about that. I once saw a document about doing bringup on a new architecture that said you should expect it to take at least several hundred failed boot attempts before you first get hello-world booted. In this case, I wouldn't expect it to be quite that bad, because the basic CPU architecture is already supported. But I wouldn't be surprised if it took several dozen attempts. > I don't understand what's going wrong here, since it seems that the > code in boot.c isn't reached at all, every time I'm trying to boot > from eza0 I get this: > >>> b eza0 [...] > 2..1..0.. > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00001801 > >>> > >>> e/l/n:16 r0 > > G 00000000 20042F75 > G 00000001 00FFEA00 [...] > G 0000000B 00000000 > G 0000000C 00000200 > G 0000000D FFFFFFFF > G 0000000E 00001800 > G 0000000F 00001801 > ?26 ILL ADR > >>> Hm. sp = pc-1, fp = -1, ap = 0x200. My first guess is, like yours, that it isn't actually executing stuff. First thing I'd look at is what's in memory starting at 1800, with a peek also at what's at 200 (because that's where ap points). If I had to hazard a guess with just the information I have, I'd guess that 1800 holds the bootblock you built but with a non-executable header on it. At this point I'd probably try netbooting something that just goes into an infinite loop. Maybe something like .globl start start: nop 1: nop br 1b because that's about the simplest thing you can do that (if actually run) behaves differently from what you have now. I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its structure is what you think it is. You're making me wish I had one of those cute little machines (well, aside from liking cute little machines, that is); if I had I would be in a position to do this myself. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:13:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:13:21 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 2 January 2013 12:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: > > > >> -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> > >> these days ... ) > > > > > > There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so > > badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out > and > > make it leaner. > > http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html Contrast with: > http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/a-tale-of-two-rewrites/ This was an interesting read, thanks. I always wondered why Netscape 4 was such a POS and now I know. I had heard stories from contractors who worked at netscape on how horrible the code was and at this time I don't know if they were referring to either the "duct tape code" or the rewrite code, but either way it sounds like the code was pretty shitty. I'm with Joel on rewrite vs. refactor (which is to say: don't rewrite, but do refactor incrementally with automated tests). This is also touched on by Brian Foote in his google tech talk "Big Ball of Mud" which I linked to earlier on this thread. Ugly code that has been debugged, tested and is working in the field is to be favored over new, pretty code that has not been debugged, tested and survived in the field. However, we should not delude ourself that the choice is only between ugly time-tested code and pretty untested code. The one can be transformed into the other by judicious application of automated regression tests (so you know that changes are indeed improvements and not making things worse or introducing bugs) and guided refactoring. Over the past 10 years, I have done this many times and the single biggest weapon in combatting shitty code is automated regression tests. Otherwise, you really don't know if you're making things better or not. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:17:34 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:17:34 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:54:28 +0100 > Bert Thomas wrote: > > > I had a guy working for me who spent several days on adding a database > > to a program to make everything in the program configurable. Most of the > > configuration items would have done fine as a program constant IMO. The > > others could have easily be set by commandline parameters. > > > > IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if > > the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the > > costs involved. > Depends. By adding that "overkill" that programmer solved the problem > once and for all. If he had it done as a constant, the customer may > wanted that constant to become a variable in a furure release. That is the time to spend on making it variable: when the customer asks for it. YAGNI doesn't say never do it, it says don't do it until you need it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:22:43 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:22:43 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic at web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > > > Reuseable > > > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > > > Based on what?\xa0 Again, this is not in line with my > > experience as a > > person paid to write software.\xa0 > > my guess if you never wrote reuseable code Ah... you subtly changed it from well engineered code (i.e. not throwaway shit that noone can understand) to REUSABLE code, which is something else entirely. I didn't notice that you called it REUSABLE. > http://agile.dzone.com/news/reuse-myth-can-you-afford I agree with the sentiments here: a lot of code is written with the intention that it will be reused, but it never is. So we paid for something we didn't need. Agile/XP practices (i.e. YAGNI) say don't design for reuse until you need reuse. PS: Please stop turning my perfectly good ASCII into useless non-ASCII. (\xa0? WTF?) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:31:33 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:31:33 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk I identified: 01:37 Model 28 ASR teletypes I noticed but could not identify: 07:13 calligraphic graphics system with hidden line removal. Could be an Evans & Sutherland LDS-1, but might be something earlier. I've seen this system in several NASA films, but I've never been able to get any information on the hardware used. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 12:43:27 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:43:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301021843.NAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> my guess if you never wrote reuseable code > Ah... you subtly changed it from well engineered code (i.e. not > throwaway shit that noone can understand) Actually, for some purposes throwaway shit _is_ well-engineered code. Good engineering is about building it suitably for its use, not about building it to some sort of idealized "all code should be like this" target. When the purpose of the code is to, for example, verify that your understanding of some aspect of the language is correct, or when you need to compute a constant that will go into the final code as a constant, or some such, then the code _is_ throwaway, so making it anything else is wasted effort. >> http://agile.dzone.com/news/reuse-myth-can-you-afford (Unfortunately its author rather ruins the effect by making one of the most annoying (to my eye) rudimentary English blunders on the net today, namely, using "loose" as if it meant "lose".) > I agree with the sentiments here: a lot of code is written with the > intention that it will be reused, but it never is. So we paid for > something we didn't need. Yes and no, I'd say. The page you cite touches on this when it says One of the reasons developers want to "design for reuse" is not so much because the code will be reused but rather because they desire a set of properties (modularity, high cohesion, low coupling, etc.) which are desirable engineering properties but sound a bit abstract. Designing for reuse and designing for maintainability, while hardly identical, do overlap heavily. In particular... > Agile/XP practices (i.e. YAGNI) say don't design for reuse until you > need reuse. ...I consider this a dangerous idea. There is certainly some truth in it, but I think it is dangerous because designing code without any thought of reuse has a nasty tendency to result in code that is extremely hard to reuse, often needing a complete discard and rewrite. Designing code with reuse in mind, while not necessarily resulting in reuse-ready code, does produce code that is much easier to reuse later. Someone upthread wrote that "reuseable code is define as code that can be used without any code changes across many different unrelated applications"[sic]. I disagree with this definition; I see reusability as a spectrum, not an absolute, running from what that quote describes through code that needs a few minor tweaks and code that needs major tweaks all the way to stuff that is best scrapped and rewritten rather than reused at all. So, I would say, don't make it fully reuse-ready; that is wasted effort. But write it with reuse in mind. Do this because that produces more maintainable code in general. And, in many cases, it is actually the cheaper option. If we let the chance of needing to reuse the code be R, the cost to build it without even thinking of reusability P1, the cost to build it with reuse in mind P2, the cost to overhaul it for reuse (in extreme cases, this means scrap and rewrite) P3, and the cost to update it for reuse when built the second way is P4, then, if P1+(R*P3) > P2+(R*P4), you're better off building for reusability, as in, writing it with reuse in mind even if you don't actually make it reuse-ready. And, at least in my limited experience, that inequality is often true. > PS: Please stop turning my perfectly good ASCII into useless > non-ASCII. (\xa0? WTF?) >>> Based on what?\xa0 Again, this is not in line with my 0xa0 is the 8859-1 non-break space character. This is probably an artifact of a MUA that's been "improved" to the point where it's too stupid to comprehend the concept that quotes should be a literal quote of what was written, rather than what was massaged into some other form to get it past display code that's also been "improved" to the point where subtrefuge has to be used to display straightforward text. The message-ID in your In-reply-to: and References: is <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic at web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, which makes it look as though this was written by someone using Yahoo's webmail interface, in which case none of this misbehaviour is any surprise at all to me. Webmailers generally do not understand email, instead trying to shorehorn it into their "everything is the Web and the Web is everything" mindset, leading to damage like that. (That's hardly the only damage; I went back and looked up the message in question and found it (a) added spurious linebreaks to text it quoted and (b) used paragraph-length lines for its new text.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 2 13:05:20 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:05:20 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252706BC@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> >> See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > I noticed but could not identify: > 07:13 calligraphic graphics system with hidden line removal. Could be > an Evans & Sutherland LDS-1, but might be something earlier. > I've seen this system in several NASA films, but I've never been > able to get any information on the hardware used. I scratched my head at that myself. There's a slant to the frame not too different than the perspective you'd get if you had a movie camera pointed at some graphics terminal. Several technologies I know of at that time, would not result in any such slant: State of the art for several scientific application in that area, involved pen plotters (black ink on white paper) transferred to photographic negative movie film. (White image on black). A slightly cheaper approach (used extensively in my area of academia) was line printer paper plots transferred to movie film (again often in negative). Sub-character resolution was possible through choice of characters (not dissimilar to "ASCII graphics" although I know the movies were made using IBM and EBCDIC!) There was talk of direct-laser-to-film but I never saw it. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 2 13:08:34 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:08:34 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> On 12/31/2012 11:24 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even >>> sloppier code than they write in C++. >> >> ...and that's saying something! >> >>> They think that garbage >>> collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider >>> the resource consequences of their implementation. >> >> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff >> like managing our own memory anymore!" >> >> Morons. > > Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have to > think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the interview > tends to end fairly quickly. Hear hear! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 13:30:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 11:30:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102112652.K54882@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To be honest, even my throwaway code is well-commented and clean. > . . . > What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my original > code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of writing a > better editor from the ground up. Sometimes, it is easier, and much less intimidating to modify something existing into what you want, rather than face the daunting task of designing from scratch. It takes time, and experience, to build the confidence to know that you CAN start from scratch. You probably gave some "developing" programmer much needed practice and experience. But, let's hope that now he can build from scratch! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 13:52:19 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:52:19 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > Hmm... I've got the files and tried to build a netbsd-boot thats > > saying something..but no luck jet.. > > I wouldn't worry too much about that. I once saw a document about > doing bringup on a new architecture that said you should expect it to > take at least several hundred failed boot attempts before you first get > hello-world booted. > > In this case, I wouldn't expect it to be quite that bad, because the > basic CPU architecture is already supported. But I wouldn't be > surprised if it took several dozen attempts. > > > I don't understand what's going wrong here, since it seems that the > > code in boot.c isn't reached at all, every time I'm trying to boot > > from eza0 I get this: > > > >>> b eza0 > [...] > > 2..1..0.. > > ?06 HLT INST > > PC = 00001801 > > >>> > > >>> e/l/n:16 r0 > > > > G 00000000 20042F75 > > G 00000001 00FFEA00 > [...] > > G 0000000B 00000000 > > G 0000000C 00000200 > > G 0000000D FFFFFFFF > > G 0000000E 00001800 > > G 0000000F 00001801 > > ?26 ILL ADR > > >>> > > Hm. sp = pc-1, fp = -1, ap = 0x200. > > My first guess is, like yours, that it isn't actually executing stuff. ... yes, there is something nasty going on while booting from the network. I had this day free, and fiddeled the entire day on this thing, not to much luck. I've setup a cross build environment for Netbsd 4.0.1, 5.2 and 6.0 (used a remote machine that's a lot faster than mine at home). Hacked in the files that's building the boot programm, as far as I now know, that thing thinks that it is getting loaded eighter to zero or 2f0000 in the booting host, while it is linked to 2f0000. I've build a binary now that dissassembled looks like this: boot4: file format elf32-vax Disassembly of section .text: 002f0000 <.text>: 2f0000: 01 nop 2f0001: 01 nop 2f0002: d0 8f 43 00 movl $0x00000043,r2 2f0006: 00 00 52 2f0009: 16 9f 23 4f jsb *0x20044f23 2f000d: 04 20 2f000f: d0 8f 44 00 movl $0x00000044,r2 2f0013: 00 00 52 2f0016: 16 9f 23 4f jsb *0x20044f23 2f001a: 04 20 2f001c: 01 nop 2f001d: 01 nop 2f001e: 00 halt ..... other (real) stuff from netbsds boot comes here. When I depoist those bytes per hand in to 2f0000 and start it, I get this: >>> start 2f0000 CD ?06 HLT INST PC = 002F001F >>> start 2f0000 CD ?06 HLT INST PC = 002F001F >>> ... all like it should be. (that 20044f23 is your cons_A_TX w/o that leading blbc 1001(r11),0x20044f32 (don't know what that bis should do, so I left it aside) But when I try to boot that file with mop it dos an >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. ...and hangs until I press the halt switch. Examining the memory at 2f0000 is showing this: P 002F0000 01 P 002F0001 01 P 002F0002 D0 P 002F0003 8F P 002F0004 00 P 002F0005 00 P 002F0006 2F P 002F0007 00 P 002F0008 5E P 002F0009 C3 P 002F000A 8F P 002F000B 00 P 002F000C 00 P 002F000D 2F P 002F000E 00 P 002F000F 8F P 002F0010 5C P 002F0011 EA P 002F0012 2F P 002F0013 00 P 002F0014 50 P 002F0015 9E P 002F0016 AF P 002F0017 E8 P 002F0018 51 P 002F0019 D0 P 002F001A 8F P 002F001B 00 P 002F001C 00 P 002F001D 2F P 002F001E 00 P 002F001F 53 P 002F0020 28 P 002F0021 50 P 002F0022 61 P 002F0023 63 P 002F0024 C3 P 002F0025 8F P 002F0026 5C P 002F0027 EA P 002F0028 2F P 002F0029 00 P 002F002A 8F P 002F002B F4 P 002F002C 10 P 002F002D 30 P 002F002E 00 P 002F002F 52 P 002F0030 2C P 002F0031 00 P 002F0032 63 P 002F0033 00 P 002F0034 52 P 002F0035 63 P 002F0036 16 P 002F0037 AF P 002F0038 00 P 002F0039 D0 P 002F003A 8F P 002F003B 41 ... I don't have any clue where this is coming from. Since I can only look at this after hlating the system, I don't know what is going on when the rom loader is actually starting my code.. That's not looking any better: >>> e/p/b/n:20 0 P 00000000 00 P 00000001 00 P 00000002 00 P 00000003 00 P 00000004 00 P 00000005 00 P 00000006 00 P 00000007 00 P 00000008 00 P 00000009 00 P 0000000A 00 P 0000000B 00 P 0000000C 00 P 0000000D 00 P 0000000E 00 P 0000000F 00 P 00000010 00 P 00000011 18 ... So the question of today is what the bootloader for the SGEC (eza0) is doing with the booted file on that board. > > First thing I'd look at is what's in memory starting at 1800, with a > peek also at what's at 200 (because that's where ap points). If I had > to hazard a guess with just the information I have, I'd guess that 1800 > holds the bootblock you built but with a non-executable header on it. > > At this point I'd probably try netbooting something that just goes into > an infinite loop. Maybe something like > > .globl start > start: > nop > 1: nop > br 1b > > because that's about the simplest thing you can do that (if actually > run) behaves differently from what you have now. Not really, both programs realize the never come back :-) > > I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of > detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its structure > is what you think it is. It is a netbsd ELF File 00000000 7f 45 4c 46 01 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.ELF............| 00000010 02 00 4b 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 00 00 |..K.........4...| 00000020 ac f5 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 20 00 01 00 28 00 |??......4. ...(.| 00000030 08 00 07 00 01 00 00 00 60 00 00 00 00 00 2f 00 |........`...../.| 00000040 00 00 2f 00 9c e5 00 00 8c 10 01 00 07 00 00 00 |../..?..........| 00000050 10 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| 00000060 01 01 d0 8f 43 00 00 00 52 16 9f 23 4f 04 20 d0 |..?.C...R..#O. ?| 00000070 8f 44 00 00 00 52 16 9f 23 4f 04 20 01 01 00 d0 |.D...R..#O. ...?| 00000080 8f 00 00 2f 00 5e bb 8f ff 1f c3 8f 00 00 2f 00 |.../.^?.?.?.../.| 00000090 8f 9c e5 2f 00 50 9e ef c4 ff ff ff 51 d0 8f 00 |..?/.P.?????Q?..| 000000a0 00 2f 00 53 d1 51 53 13 1f 28 50 61 63 c3 8f 9c |./.S?QS..(Pac?..| 000000b0 e5 2f 00 8f 8c 10 30 00 52 2c 00 63 00 52 63 dc |?/....0.R,.c.Rc?| 000000c0 7e dd 8f 68 00 2f 00 02 d0 5e ef 11 0a 01 00 fb |~?.h./..?^?....?| 000000d0 00 ef 82 03 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 |.?..............| 000000e0 00 00 fb 00 ef ff 3e 00 00 da 1f 12 da 00 18 d0 |..?.??>..?..?..?| 000000f0 ac 04 56 d0 ac 14 59 dd ac 08 dd ac 10 9e ef b1 |?.V??.Y??.??..??| 00000100 08 01 00 5a dd 5a 78 09 aa 4c 58 d0 03 5b d4 5a |...Z?Zx.?LX?.[?Z| 00000110 fb 03 66 00 00 00 c2 04 5e 00 04 01 c0 00 c2 04 |?.f...?.^...?.?.| 00000120 5e 9f ef ed c7 00 00 9e ef d5 90 00 00 57 fb 01 |^.???...??...W?.| 00000130 67 d0 ef 81 c9 00 00 50 13 1d 9e ef 78 c9 00 00 |g??.?..P...?x?..| 00000140 56 dd a6 08 dd 50 9f ef d3 c7 00 00 fb 03 67 c0 |V??.?P.???..?.g?| 00000150 0c 56 d0 66 50 12 ea 04 c0 01 9e ae 98 5e db 3e |.V?fP.?.?..?.^?>| 00000160 51 78 8f e8 51 50 d1 50 02 13 03 31 72 01 78 8f |Qx.?QP?P...1r.x.| file boot4 boot4: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped ..an I wondered myself how a VAX can boot a .elf at all. But I found now way to build a special "netboot" file with netbsd, maybe I missing something here? That may be the case... > > You're making me wish I had one of those cute little machines (well, > aside from liking cute little machines, that is); if I had I would be > in a position to do this myself. Only one of the two are realy mine, the other one is borrowed or such, I should try to do something with it. I do have the two disks that where connected to the VME Board before too, but haven't looked at them. That thing has build something like a sea map reader, like a flatbed plotter with a lamp from the bottom of the map, pointing at the actual location of a ship on that map. Don't know how this may be called in english... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 13:57:54 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:57:54 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> Message-ID: On 2 January 2013 17:13, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > >> On 2 January 2013 12:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas >> wrote: >> > >> >> -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> >> >> these days ... ) >> > >> > >> > There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so >> > badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out >> and >> > make it leaner. >> >> http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html > > Contrast with: > Ah, thanks. That is in fact the piece I was thinking of, but I misremembered the author - I had "software pundit / entertaining blogger/writer whose name begins with J" but I went for Jamie and not Joel. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wheagy at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:38:56 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:38:56 -0500 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? Message-ID: A couple other related questions and a comments. I made a Apple III+ system diagnostics disk and that ran fine too. So it seems like the floppy drive is Ok, and all of the tests passed except the RAM test, so that's the big issue. The RAM test disk seems to help narrow down where the bad chip may be, so I might have a chance to find it without trial and error. It looks like there are two different RAM chips on the ON THREE board (as Alexandre mentioned) TMS4164-15NL and D41256C-15. It turns out I have an extra AST SprintDisk for my Apple IIe with a few D41256C-15 chips. If I'm lucky enough that one or more of those is the culprit, I may be covered, otherwise I'll need to source a few chips. If you look at the end of the ON THREE board in the second pic http://imgur.com/a/c40m0 there is a white header connector on the ON THREE board that connects to the male header on the Apple III motherboard. The ON THREE manual indicates that a gentle rocking should loosen the connector. It is a strange looking connector. The pins appear to come through from below and bend at 90 degrees. I've applied quite a bit of force and they are not breaking free. I'm afraid to pull too hard. Any pointers on how these connectors work so I can avoid damage? Thanks, Win From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 15:03:16 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:03:16 -0800 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 15:06:49 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Arrgl! The MOP Format seems to be the point. I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file (wich I don't have) to the mop format. NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a mop-file. In my tftpboot/mop dir are some collected files in the meantime: lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 5 2 Jan 21:51 0000f8509314.SYS -> boot4 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 11 Feb 2012 08002b06f23a.SYS -> mopboot lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 11 Feb 2012 08002b0da9a3.SYS -> mopboot lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 11 Feb 2012 MOPBOOT.SYS -> mopboot -rw------- 1 root wheel 583168 11 Jul 08:45 SH1601ENG.SYS -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 63212 2 Jan 19:48 boot4 -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 61460 2 Jan 16:07 boot5 -rw-r--r-- 1 holm holm 71168 11 Feb 2012 mopboot -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 60176 15 Dez 19:55 mopboot6 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 60232 2 Jan 12:07 mopboot6a -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 63852 2 Jan 15:54 netbsd-5.0-boot -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 63132 2 Jan 15:54 netbsd-5.2-boot -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 63084 2 Jan 15:54 netbsd4.0.1-boot mopboot is an old one from which I think I used it to boot the uVAXII, netbsd-* are the original files from the installation/netboot dirs in the distribution of ftp.netbsd.org lets see what this is: mopboot: data mopboot6: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped mopboot6a: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped netbsd-5.0-boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped netbsd-5.2-boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped netbsd4.0.1-boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped Aha. in the front of the mopboot file are 200 bytes of header: 00000000 d4 00 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |?.0.............| 00000010 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| 00000020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| * 000000d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 8a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| 000000e0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| * 000001f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff |..............??| 00000200 01 01 d0 8f 00 00 2f 00 5e c3 8f 00 00 2f 00 8f |..?.../.^?.../..| 00000210 5c ea 2f 00 50 9e af e8 51 d0 8f 00 00 2f 00 53 |\?/.P.??Q?.../.S| 00000220 28 50 61 63 c3 8f 5c ea 2f 00 8f f4 10 30 00 52 |(Pac?.\?/..?.0.R| 00000230 2c 00 63 00 52 63 16 af 00 d0 8f 41 00 2f 00 6e |,.c.Rc.?.?.A./.n| 00000240 05 dd 5b fb 01 ef 6c 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 da 1f |.?[?.?l.......?.| 00000250 12 da 00 18 d0 ac 04 56 d0 ac 14 59 9e ef 06 0f |.?..??.V??.Y.?..| 00000260 01 00 5a dd 5a 78 09 aa 4c 58 d0 03 5b d4 5a fb |..Z?Zx.?LX?.[?Z?| 00000270 01 66 00 01 06 01 2f 00 a2 06 2f 00 f2 00 2f 00 |.f..../.?./.?./.| 00000280 ed 00 2f 00 a2 06 2f 00 e1 00 2f 00 dc 00 2f 00 |?./.?./.?./.?./.| 00000290 2e 04 2f 00 c6 00 2f 00 c1 00 2f 00 f2 03 2f 00 |../.?./.?./.?./.| 000002a0 b0 00 2f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |?./.............| 000002b0 48 61 6c 74 73 20 74 68 65 20 73 79 73 74 65 6d |Halts the system| 000002c0 00 68 61 6c 74 00 4c 6f 61 64 20 61 6e 64 20 65 |.halt.Load and e| 000002d0 78 65 63 75 74 65 20 66 69 6c 65 00 62 6f 6f 74 |xecute file.boot| 000002e0 00 53 61 6d 65 20 61 73 20 27 3f 27 00 68 65 6c |.Same as '?'.hel| 000002f0 70 00 53 68 6f 77 20 74 68 69 73 20 68 65 6c 70 |p.Show this help| 00000300 20 6d 65 6e 75 00 3f 00 32 32 3a 31 33 3a 33 30 | menu.?.22:13:30| 00000310 00 4a 61 6e 20 20 36 20 32 30 30 32 00 0a 0d 3e |.Jan 6 2002...>| 00000320 3e 20 4e 65 74 42 53 44 2f 76 61 78 20 62 6f 6f |> NetBSD/vax boo| 00000330 74 20 5b 25 73 20 25 73 5d 20 3c 3c 0a 00 3e 3e |t [%s %s] <<..>>| 00000340 20 50 72 65 73 73 20 61 6e 79 20 6b 65 79 20 74 | Press any key t| 00000350 6f 20 61 62 6f 72 74 20 61 75 74 6f 62 6f 6f 74 |o abort autoboot| This file claims to be from Jan 6 2002, proably the last time where netbooting a VAX was possible? I've found out, that the log from mopd with the mopboot file is significant larger than with all other and newer files, the mop boot simply stalls and the contents in the VAX memory simply where some rests of previos tries with mopboot. Oh no, thanks. Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File out of the ELF files I have, maybei I can do objcopy and later mopa.out? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 2 15:08:18 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:08:18 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A1C2.6070008@neurotica.com> On 01/02/2013 04:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? People playing video games, looking at porn, and paying other people to reinstall the OS? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:08:25 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:08:25 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? f -- Will From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:10:17 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:10:17 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: , <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: Which PC era? cassette tapes?the floppy disk?CDs ?DVDs ?blu-ray disks?hard drives?a picture of a bunch of clouds??? Dan. > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:03:16 -0800 > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: > Subject: Re: NASA computers circa 1969 > > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > --Chuck > > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:13:11 2013 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:13:11 -0700 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Win, Great! LMK if/when you need anything. If do you switch back to an Apple-made memory board, I believe you'll need the original ROMs. I wouldn't recommend going all the way back to a 128K board, though. SOS barely fits in that amount of memory - stick to 256K. Also, you'll need to make sure you get a memory board that matches your system. Since it's a III+, the original 128K 12V board won't work in it. Also, if you don't already have it, grab a copy of the Sun Remarketing Do-It-Yourself Guide for the Apple III. Lots of great troubleshooting procedures in there. http://apple3.org/Documents/Manuals/Sun%20Remarketing%20Do-it-yourself%20Guide%20for%20the%20Apple%20III.pdf - Mike On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Mike, > > Good info, thanks. I actually have a copy of the ON THREE manual...I > forget where I found it or why I have it, because I wasn't aware that I had > that board until a couple of days ago. > > Thanks for the offer of the loaner board. I may take you up on that, but > let me try using the ON THREE manual and making sure the board is installed > correctly and and everything is seated properly. And, if I can pinpoint > the bad chips, I might try ordering some replacements to see if it can be > fixed. If I eventually do swap in one of your loaner boards, I'm wondering > if I can roll the other changes back? It looks like there were a number of > mods made to the motherboard to accomodate the 512K board....including new > ROMs. I certainly don't have the original ROMs to put back. > > At any rate, my holiday vacation time and the disproportionate amount of > time I've been able to spend on this hobby, is about to end, so it may take > me a bit of time to get to all of it. But thanks very much for all the > info, I feel like I have a much clearer picture of how the III works and > what I need to do. > > Win > > Hi Win, > > Yes, bad RAM could definitely cause that. The board you have was > manufactured by ON THREE, which got its start as an Apple III users > group. Once Apple turned its back on the III, ON THREE stepped up and > began producing its own hardware and software for the computer. Apple > had advertised the III as being expandable up to 512K, but never > released a board larger than 256K. As the ON THREE engineers > discovered, it required some new ROMs and additional addressing lines, > but they got it working. That 512K board is fairly rare and sought > after by III collectors, as SOS and big programs like Pascal can > really benefit from the extra room. > > I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board > these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still > available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards > for the III (256K and 128K, though - not 512K). I could loan you one > for troubleshooting purposes, if you're interested. > > I wrote a quick blog entry a while back about ON THREE's card: > > http://www.6502lane.net/2011/01/17/a-look-at-on-threes-512k-memory-board-for-the-apple-iii/ > > Also, I have a PDF version of the user manual that came with it. The > links in that blog entry are dead, but I can upload it, if you want. > > - Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 2 15:16:07 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 2, 13 01:03:16 pm" Message-ID: <201301022116.r02LG7Rv31195196@floodgap.com> > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A CRT monitor with a blue screen of death? http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/30/mini-how-to-remove-the-windows-bsod-icon-in-leopard-make-os-x-a-little-less-smug/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MARXISTS SCHEME CLASSLESS SMALLTALK! -- Arch Robison ----------------------- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 2 15:18:51 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:18:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A1C2.6070008@neurotica.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4A1C2.6070008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 01/02/2013 04:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A keyboard and a CRT. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:21:59 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 21:21:59 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <755483913-1357161717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-729587271-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> A sad mac face? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:03:16 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: NASA computers circa 1969 On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 2 15:22:40 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:22:40 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A520.9090606@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-02 14:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A blue screen? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 2 15:24:17 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:24:17 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A581.5000206@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/2/2013 2:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? Trash Can. > --Chuck > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:24:49 2013 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:24:49 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: <81BD5C59F7BC44629C032511376B1FC5@tababook> References: <81BD5C59F7BC44629C032511376B1FC5@tababook> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board >> these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still >> available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards > > > It is not hard to find them. Common 4164 and 41256 RAM chips... Thanks, Alexandre! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 2 15:25:49 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:25:49 -0700 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-02 14:06, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Arrgl! > > The MOP Format seems to be the point. > I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree > I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file > (wich I don't have) to the mop format. > > NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an > ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a > mop-file. What about putting this discussion to port-vax at netbsd.org? (you have to sign in ...) I really don't mind having this discussion here, actually I love it, but at the port-vax you get more help booting a vax on netbsd ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 2 15:27:33 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:27:33 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A645.1020200@neurotica.com> On 01/02/2013 04:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > f f? ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Wed Jan 2 15:32:40 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:32:40 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102213240.GC23950@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > >I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > >in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A picture of a CRT with a flying toaster on it. -spc (What's a "tape"? 8-P From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 16:07:41 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 23:07:41 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:17:34 -0700 Richard wrote: > YAGNI doesn't say never do it, it says don't do it until you need it. Which is false when applied in an absolute manner. Most (all?) things go wrong when taken to an absolute extreme. Proper real world engineering is allways a question of optimizing, balanceing and finding a pragmatic way in the middle. The Middle Way is no new concept. It is one of the fundamental wisdoms of Buddhism. Something that has proven to be true by many generations of humans for now well over 2500 years weights more to me then the ideas of some Extreme Programming Guru. ;-) You can apply YAGNI in an absolute manner in your Extreme Programming monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. But you are doomed to fail sooner or later when you are in the real world. Even if you do it right and you are right in doing it right, you may get fired by a suit who has a different opinion about what is right... ;-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 16:15:22 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 23:15:22 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File > out of the ELF files I have MOPCOPY(1) General Commands Manual MOPCOPY(1) NAME mopcopy -- Create MOP image from another executable format SYNOPSIS mopcopy infile outfile DESCRIPTION mopcopy is used to convert a file from another executable format to a MOP image. Elf32 and a.out VAX images are currently supported. SEE ALSO mopchk(1), mopprobe(1), moptrace(1), a.out(5), elf(5), mopd(8) AUTHORS Lloyd Parkes Jason R. Thorpe NetBSD 6.0_STABLE June 6, 2002 NetBSD 6.0_STABLE -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 2 16:41:54 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 15:41:54 -0700 Subject: icon for the PC ear (was Re: NASA computers circa 1969) In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4B7B2.8030805@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? The Blue Screen of Death? A piece of Spam? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 2 16:56:00 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 17:56:00 -0500 Subject: icon for the PC ear (was Re: NASA computers circa 1969) References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4B7B2.8030805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 5:41 PM Subject: icon for the PC ear (was Re: NASA computers circa 1969) > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > The Blue Screen of Death? > A piece of Spam? > Free Porn, Facebook. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Jan 2 16:59:51 2013 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 23:59:51 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2013-01-01 20:44:34 -0500, Mouse wrote: > > Just to mention: If you're using binutils's objdump to disassemble > > the ROM, you can use (multiple times) -M entry:0x.... to mark > > certain addresses as entry masks (thus, as function start addresses.) > > Holm's email which I was excerpting included two lines (which I didn't > quote) which made it clear that disassembly was done with my > disassembler, which is capable of recording, for each byte in the file, > what it is: instruction, entry mask, data, text string, etc. It also > supports annotating the disassembly with comments; it is specifically > designed for making sense out of an otherwise undocumented binary (it > was first written to deal with a captured piece of malware). Well, I'd probably also use it? Where can I find it? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Gib Dein Bestes. Dann ?bertriff Dich selbst! the second : From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:04:53 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 17:04:53 -0600 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> On 01/02/2013 03:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for > old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? You expect people in 50 years time to care about anything that happened 50 years ago? The current generation seem to think of last week as ancient history :-( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:14:30 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 18:14:30 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: > You expect people in 50 years time to care about anything that happened 50 > years ago? The current generation seem to think of last week as ancient > history :-( Yeah, just like you and me and everyone else when we were 14. People grown to like history. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 17:25:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252706BC@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252706BC@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20130102150924.I54882@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > involved pen plotters (black ink on white paper) transferred to > photographic negative movie film. (White image on black). > A slightly cheaper approach (used extensively in my area of academia) > was line printer paper plots transferred to movie film (again often in > negative). Sub-character resolution was possible through choice of > characters (not dissimilar to "ASCII graphics" although I know the > movies were made using IBM and EBCDIC!) > There was talk of direct-laser-to-film but I never saw it. I was at GSFC (Goddard Space Flight Center) Greenbelt Maryland in 1969. But, had almost no idea what I was doing. ("Data Technician", but spent most of my time doing FORTRAN, APL, and manual plotting of graphs for a British physisicist stufying Van Allen belts) On-site contractor (KMS Technology) Building 26, "National Space Sciences Data Center" I remember: LOTS of punchcards, quite a few reels of tape some EAM/"Unit Record" machines 7094, with 360/30 doing its I/O 360-70 360-90? 360-95? Selectric terminal (with APL typeball) connecting to somewhere in Virginia. 026 keypunches A "Gerber Data Digitizer" (giant etch-a-sketch) connected to one of the 026s (foor pedal punched 2 3 digit numbers) Calcomp plotters 570? 690? Stromberg-Carlson/Stromberg-Datagraphics? 4020? and 4060? direct to 16mm or 35mm film printer/plotters off-limits cubicles with 029 punches and professional keypunchers. "Do EVERYTHING on coding sheets, and submit them to the keypunchers; if you punch your own code, we'll start paying you keypunch wages." Since I was being paid LESS than that, I ignored THAT threat/promise?. "Plot E Vs L for this data printout" "Take this deck of cards to building xx. But duplicate it on unmarked cards first, because you don't have clearance to touch it." "Run this data through GLSP with variables of xxx and yyy" "Convert those 3 CABINETS of FORTRAN from Calcomp output to SC" "Fetch this order from the cafeteria" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 17:29:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:29:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102152838.A54882@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? floppy disk? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 17:31:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A520.9090606@e-bbes.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4A520.9090606@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20130102153142.T54882@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? "404" From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 17:43:19 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:43:19 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > You can apply YAGNI in an absolute manner in your Extreme Programming > monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. [...] Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't understand what Extreme Programming is about. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Jan 2 17:58:37 2013 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 18:58:37 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4C9AD.4030202@ptdprolog.net> On 01/02/13 16:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for > old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > The Blue Screen of Death. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 18:59:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:59:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201301030059.TAA03641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff >>> like managing our own memory anymore!" >>> Morons. Well, with that attitude, yes. But sometimes not worrying about memory management is a right answer. >> Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have >> to think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the >> interview tends to end fairly quickly. > Hear hear! I hope you apply a bit of intelligence. There are lots of cases where "I don't want to have to think about..." is perfectly reasonable. For example, for almost all the code I write, I don't want to have to think about the details of the machine language behind them; that's why I don't write in assembly/machine code. (And, yes, that "almost all" is an important qualification.) And, yes, sometimes memory management is something I don't want to have to think about. Tasks like those I do in Lisp, or sh, or awk, or some such lanugage that hides that from me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 19:31:47 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:31:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301030131.UAA03834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 2f0002: d0 8f 43 00 movl $0x00000043,r2 > 2f0006: 00 00 52 You could make this three bytes more compact by using movzbl. (If you were using characters in the 0x00-0x3f range, you could use a short literal and it'd be only three bytes either way.) Not that that's relevant to your problem. > that 20044f23 is your cons_A_TX w/o that leading > blbc 1001(r11),0x20044f32 > (don't know what that bis should do, so I left it aside) I think that is probably handling for "no console present" or some such. Most of the console interaction checks it in some form. > Examining the memory at 2f0000 is showing this: [compacted vertically -Mouse] > P 002F0000 01 01 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 > P 002F0008 5E C3 8F 00 00 2F 00 8F > P 002F0010 5C EA 2F 00 50 9E AF E8 > P 002F0018 51 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 53 > P 002F0020 28 50 61 63 C3 8F 5C EA > P 002F0028 2F 00 8F F4 10 30 00 52 > P 002F0030 2C 00 63 00 52 63 16 AF > P 002F0038 00 D0 8F 41 > I don't have any clue where this is coming from. I think I might. This disassembles as 2f0000: nop 2f0001: nop 2f0002: movl $002f0000,sp 2f0009: subl3 $002f0000,$002fea5c,r0 2f0015: movab 0x2f0000,r1 2f0019: movl $002f0000,r3 2f0020: movc3 r0,(r1),(r3) 2f0024: subl3 $002fea5c,$003010f4,r2 2f0030: movc5 $0,(r3),$0,r2,(r3) 2f0036: jsb 0x2f0039 (plus a few leftover bytes which make up only a partial instruction) which looks to me like "relocate myself to where I expect to be" code (plus a bit more; the instructions at 2f0024 and 2f0030 are "clear bss" code). This is probably coming from something in the NetBSD bootblock build procedure getting linked before your code. This code will explode if the bootblock size and location are such that the relocation code in the as-loaded location overlaps something in the as-expected location; I hesitate to say that's what's behind the behaviour you're seeing, though. >> I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of >> detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its >> structure is what you think it is. > It is a netbsd ELF File That is suspicious to me. It's been a while since I played with MOP, but I think it doesn't want an executable such as a.out or ELF. Later messages in the thread make me think that's right, but they also make me think you've already discovered it, so I don't need to elaborate. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 19:52:45 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:52:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> References: <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] made it clear that disassembly was done with my disassembler, >> which is capable of [...] > Well, I'd probably also use it? Where can I find it? There are two places. The most up-to-date version is available as a git repo; the thing you would want to git clone is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. It's also available by anonymous FTP from ftp.rodents-montreal.org in /mouse/disas/src/. (You should be able to cd /mouse/disas and ask for src.tar or src.tar.bz2; the FTP server can tar (and bzip2) on the fly for you.) If you have trouble with it, I can probably help; I also infer that at least one other listmember has got it working and thus might be able and willing to help. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 2 20:06:44 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 21:06:44 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201301030059.TAA03641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> <201301030059.TAA03641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <0a2001cde956$faef04c0$f0cd0e40$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Mouse wrote: > > >>> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff > >>> like managing our own memory anymore!" > > >>> Morons. > > Well, with that attitude, yes. But sometimes not worrying about memory > management is a right answer. > > >> Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have > >> to think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the > >> interview tends to end fairly quickly. > > Hear hear! > > I hope you apply a bit of intelligence. There are lots of cases where > "I don't want to have to think about..." is perfectly reasonable. For > example, for almost all the code I write, I don't want to have to think > about the details of the machine language behind them; that's why I > don't write in assembly/machine code. (And, yes, that "almost all" is > an important qualification.) > We're talking about embedded, real-time systems. My team and I write mostly in C but debug in assembly. We get to know almost all of the assembly that the tool chain we use will generate and we structure our C to ensure that the generated assembly matches our expectations. In cases where that causes very unusual C syntax, comments indicating the reasoning are included and there are special comment tags that remind us to check behaviors in certain areas whenever a tool chain change is required. We use a C "style" that might look rather odd to programmers that are not familiar with the reasoning behind it. In general, we disable almost all compiler attempts at optimization. If we need speed at that level, we hand assemble. There is always a delicate balance between the speed and control that we require and the potential portability and reusability that C gives us. We have all of the source to all of the libraries that we use and have no problem stepping into any library call suspected of causing trouble. We have a thorough understanding of all of the threading code (semaphores, mutexes, reader-writer locks, various levels of context swaps, etc.) that we use and we modify it (sometimes very significantly, including but not limited to special purpose schedulers and hybrid coop/preemptive swap behavior). The line between application and OS in most of our products is fuzzy if it exists at all. Anyway, I hope that you can see that, in this sort of environment, we really don't have room for programmers that "don't want to think". Bill S. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:10:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 00:10:14 -0200 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? References: Message-ID: > If do you switch back to an Apple-made memory board, I believe you'll > need the original ROMs. I wouldn't recommend going all the way back > to a 128K board, though. SOS barely fits in that amount of memory - > stick to 256K. Also, you'll need to make sure you get a memory board > that matches your system. Since it's a III+, the original 128K 12V > board won't work in it. And why would he do it with such a great memory board he has? It is just a matter of finding one (socketed) memory chip! :oD You can do a simple troubleshooting to discover which chip is defective without having 4164s there: Number chips from 1 to 16: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Now swap the first and last (1 and 16) and run the memory test No problems? swap 2 and 15, and run the memory test No problems, swap 3 and 14 and so on When you find that the last swap changed the position of memory error, you know that one of these two chips has problems :o) Since you said you have a //e, you can find 4164 as the main board memories of the //e. From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 21:24:40 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 22:24:40 -0500 Subject: FS: Compact Flash Adapter 3000 For Apple II Message-ID: <50E4F9F8.2060602@gmail.com> Im forced to sell my spare CFFA 3000 for Apple II, this allows you to use USB and Compact Flash cards on your Apple II, boot disk images right off a USB Stick 175 shipped in the USA, These are sold out right now Heres a link to what they are http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 23:41:47 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 06:41:47 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130103054147.GA96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >> [...] made it clear that disassembly was done with my disassembler, > >> which is capable of [...] > > Well, I'd probably also use it? Where can I find it? > > There are two places. > > The most up-to-date version is available as a git repo; the thing you > would want to git clone is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. > > It's also available by anonymous FTP from ftp.rodents-montreal.org in > /mouse/disas/src/. (You should be able to cd /mouse/disas and ask for > src.tar or src.tar.bz2; the FTP server can tar (and bzip2) on the fly > for you.) > > If you have trouble with it, I can probably help; I also infer that at > least one other listmember has got it working and thus might be able > and willing to help. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B :-)) Yea, strings.h -> string.h and than that gcc-extension... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ba600 at ncf.ca Wed Jan 2 23:51:02 2013 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 00:51:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software - more disks found In-Reply-To: <1700758.YmJsZZYx0X@linux-zlo2> References: <50DA4AB8.9040707@bitsavers.org> <1889114.qgImAe70qr@linux-zlo2> <1700758.YmJsZZYx0X@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <3828096.62a6FiWoBQ@linux-zlo2> On Thursday, December 27, 2012 01:42:04 AM Mike wrote: > Found 3 disks so far > > 6580-000 Display writer System diagnotiscs (CED013A-1) 08/01/83 WID-01 > SEQ-781 > > 6580-000 IBM 6580 (PDD011-1) 8/20/82 WID-02 SEQ- 148 > > DSV1.1 DOS 3.2 48K slave DISK 2+2 Controller copyright 1979 10/4/79 > > Found another 8" labelled SYSTEM SOURCE but it was from the Dynalogic Found 3 more disks for the Dispaly writer in the pile of work disks. IBM Displaywriter preview diskette Ident S544-2178 5608-SRA vol1 of 1 BIN:chartpack V1 L3 Feat:9042/2981 IDEN: y9GKIC/DEC.83 IBM display writer system training textpacks E, 2, 4 and 6 Diskette name : master S544-2273-0 -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 3 00:36:38 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 01:36:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103054147.GA96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130103054147.GA96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301030636.BAA05019@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> If you have trouble with it, I can probably help; I also infer that >> at least one other listmember has got it working and thus might be >> able and willing to help. > Yea, strings.h -> string.h and than that gcc-extension... The former depends at least somewhat on the OS in question. But I've added an include of everywhere I have an include of . I've also done two other things: (1) I turned VFLAG off entirely in the Makefile, since I usually don't want it these days and this helps others slightly, and (2) I had thought I'd put in a goto workaround for the one place I had labeled control structure, but your remark prompted me to check, finding it had crept back in in the PPC support. So I removed the goto workaround from disas.c, since, since anyone building it needs to have some form of LCS support now, I'd rather go with the more maintainable version of that code. The git repo and the FTPable copy have been updated. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 00:51:09 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:51:09 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File > > out of the ELF files I have > > MOPCOPY(1) General Commands Manual MOPCOPY(1) > > NAME > mopcopy -- Create MOP image from another executable format > > SYNOPSIS > mopcopy infile outfile > > DESCRIPTION > mopcopy is used to convert a file from another executable format to a MOP > image. > > Elf32 and a.out VAX images are currently supported. > > SEE ALSO > mopchk(1), mopprobe(1), moptrace(1), a.out(5), elf(5), mopd(8) > > AUTHORS > Lloyd Parkes > Jason R. Thorpe > > NetBSD 6.0_STABLE June 6, 2002 NetBSD 6.0_STABLE > > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} ..it where nice...but this mopcopy is nonportable NetBSD-Only Code and I'm trying to build in a cross environment: #ifndef NOAOUT # if defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__OpenBSD__) # include # endif # if defined(__bsdi__) # define NOAOUT # endif # if defined(__FreeBSD__) # include # endif # if !defined(MID_VAX) # define MID_VAX 140 # endif #endif /* NOAOUT */ #ifndef NOELF # if defined(__NetBSD__) # include # else # define NOELF # endif #endif /* NOELF */ (from mopd/common/file.c and mopcopy/mopcopy.c) This or something comatible seems to be not existing on FreeBSD. Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server is an Elf File and not workingi this way. Think they lost some knowhow in the last years about VAXen. BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 01:36:11 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 08:36:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103073611.GC96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File > > > out of the ELF files I have > > > > MOPCOPY(1) General Commands Manual MOPCOPY(1) > > > > NAME > > mopcopy -- Create MOP image from another executable format > > > > SYNOPSIS > > mopcopy infile outfile > > > > DESCRIPTION > > mopcopy is used to convert a file from another executable format to a MOP > > image. > > > > Elf32 and a.out VAX images are currently supported. > > > > SEE ALSO > > mopchk(1), mopprobe(1), moptrace(1), a.out(5), elf(5), mopd(8) > > > > AUTHORS > > Lloyd Parkes > > Jason R. Thorpe > > > > NetBSD 6.0_STABLE June 6, 2002 NetBSD 6.0_STABLE > > > > -- > > > > > > \end{Jochen} > > > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > ..it where nice...but this mopcopy is nonportable NetBSD-Only Code > and I'm trying to build in a cross environment: > > #ifndef NOAOUT > # if defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__OpenBSD__) > # include > # endif > # if defined(__bsdi__) > # define NOAOUT > # endif > # if defined(__FreeBSD__) > # include > # endif > # if !defined(MID_VAX) > # define MID_VAX 140 > # endif > #endif /* NOAOUT */ > > #ifndef NOELF > # if defined(__NetBSD__) > # include > # else > # define NOELF > # endif > #endif /* NOELF */ > (from mopd/common/file.c and mopcopy/mopcopy.c) > > This or something comatible seems to be not existing on > FreeBSD. > > Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided > netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server > is an Elf File and not workingi this way. > Think they lost some knowhow in the last years about VAXen. > > BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 Things are getting more interresting lately: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0..Register contents: r0: 20042f75 r1: ffea00 r2: 1000 r3: ffba00 r4: 0 r5: 0 r6: ffffffff r7: ffffffff r8: 800 r9: 1800 r10: 1800 r11: 0 r12: 200 >> NetBSD/vax boot [1.11 Thu Jan 3 08:34:34 CET 2013] << >> Press any key to abort autoboot 5 Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 02:38:06 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 09:38:06 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-02 14:06, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Arrgl! > > > >The MOP Format seems to be the point. > >I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree > >I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file > >(wich I don't have) to the mop format. > > > >NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an > >ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a > >mop-file. > > What about putting this discussion to port-vax at netbsd.org? > (you have to sign in ...) > > I really don't mind having this discussion here, actually I love it, > but at the port-vax you get more help booting a vax on netbsd ;-) Yea, tought about this already, but currently I don't habe any other NetBSD installation running or habe access to one. Maybe I put thogether a uVAXII again next time so that I have at least one native system to try .. What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Maybei my VS4000 ist the fastest way (besides of compile time). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 03:09:31 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:09:31 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301030131.UAA03834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301030131.UAA03834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130103090931.GE96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > 2f0002: d0 8f 43 00 movl $0x00000043,r2 > > 2f0006: 00 00 52 > > You could make this three bytes more compact by using movzbl. (If you > were using characters in the 0x00-0x3f range, you could use a short > literal and it'd be only three bytes either way.) That was for testing purposes only, yes you can see that I know nothing about VAX Assembler... This was only the try to execute some code as early as possible to see that damn thing doing something... The Startup Code in that Binary is in common/srt0.S where I hacked in this 2 charackter outs, there was nothing before at all. The relocation code was later and I wasn't interested what it would do since I placed 2 nops and a halt after the two putchars. After the mopcopy it worked as it should: 2..1..0..CD ...Halt (or something like this) >>> > > Not that that's relevant to your problem. > > > that 20044f23 is your cons_A_TX w/o that leading > > blbc 1001(r11),0x20044f32 > > (don't know what that bis should do, so I left it aside) > > I think that is probably handling for "no console present" or some > such. Most of the console interaction checks it in some form. Ok, I read something in the rtVAX User Manual about such a console Bit, than this is it. > > > Examining the memory at 2f0000 is showing this: > > [compacted vertically -Mouse] > > > P 002F0000 01 01 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 > > P 002F0008 5E C3 8F 00 00 2F 00 8F > > P 002F0010 5C EA 2F 00 50 9E AF E8 > > P 002F0018 51 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 53 > > P 002F0020 28 50 61 63 C3 8F 5C EA > > P 002F0028 2F 00 8F F4 10 30 00 52 > > P 002F0030 2C 00 63 00 52 63 16 AF > > P 002F0038 00 D0 8F 41 > > > I don't have any clue where this is coming from. > > I think I might. This disassembles as > > 2f0000: nop > 2f0001: nop > 2f0002: movl $002f0000,sp > 2f0009: subl3 $002f0000,$002fea5c,r0 > 2f0015: movab 0x2f0000,r1 > 2f0019: movl $002f0000,r3 > 2f0020: movc3 r0,(r1),(r3) > 2f0024: subl3 $002fea5c,$003010f4,r2 > 2f0030: movc5 $0,(r3),$0,r2,(r3) > 2f0036: jsb 0x2f0039 > (plus a few leftover bytes which make up only a partial instruction) > > which looks to me like "relocate myself to where I expect to be" code > (plus a bit more; the instructions at 2f0024 and 2f0030 are "clear bss" > code). This is probably coming from something in the NetBSD bootblock > build procedure getting linked before your code. This code will > explode if the bootblock size and location are such that the relocation > code in the as-loaded location overlaps something in the as-expected > location; I hesitate to say that's what's behind the behaviour you're > seeing, though. Yes, but it was still in the memory from tests with that old "mopboot" file, this wasn't the code I'm tried to download on that rtVAX, the MOP simply stalled before it got the code loaded b'cause the file format wasn't the expected Mop Format ... no error message was displayed. > > >> I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of > >> detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its > >> structure is what you think it is. > > > It is a netbsd ELF File > > That is suspicious to me. It's been a while since I played with MOP, > but I think it doesn't want an executable such as a.out or ELF. Later > messages in the thread make me think that's right, but they also make > me think you've already discovered it, so I don't need to elaborate. As I already wrote, suspicios to me also, but in NetBSD Distribution the file format changed w/o any notice, so I tought it may be working. It where possible to let mopd convert such things on the fly.. Ok, I hacked up that mopcopy from NetBSD (src/usr.sbin/mopd...) so I could compile it with some hand work (normally integrated in NetBSDs makefile structure) and I have at least no a working FreeBSD/I386 binary that is able to build something that boots.. Now the hard work, that booted NetBSD Loader doesn't do anything, at least I see nothing with tcpdump, so I have further to investigate what is going on with that SGEC and the VAX Busses/Adresses/Vectors and such things. At least the SGEC is supported in the Bootcode as boot/if_ze.c (Standalone routine for the SGEC Ethernet controller.) Some Timers may work too since I see the countdown for the autoboot on the Terminal... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 3 03:42:00 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:42:00 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:43:19 -0700 Richard wrote: > Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't > understand what Extreme Programming is about. Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. In the environement in that I work it is impossible to deploy Extreme Programming (or any other software engineering methodology) due to suit attitude and inertia of coworkers. Some coworkers and I try to do better, but it is like fighting the windmills. For me, in my day to day reality, Extreme Programming is a monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. :-( p.s.: I realy want to be a monk. But being a monk doesn't pay my bills. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 3 04:05:50 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:05:50 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103110550.cdb6bd82495899f382c922b7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 09:38:06 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Worked well with 6.0 last time I tried and this was last April. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 3 04:21:57 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:21:57 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:51:09 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided > netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server > is an Elf File and not workingi this way. Now, IIRC, mopd internaly detects ELF and converts the executable "on the fly" into something MOPable. > BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? Ahhhhm. Yes. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 05:48:35 2013 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 03:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs In-Reply-To: <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1357213715.33260.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi There are some more XT-IDE V2 PCBs available. Please contact me by email if interested. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 06:57:37 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:57:37 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130103125737.GB58420@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:51:09 +0100 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided > > netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server > > is an Elf File and not workingi this way. > Now, IIRC, mopd internaly detects ELF and converts the executable "on > the fly" into something MOPable. ...but that's not congruent with what I found out now :-( > > > BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? > Ahhhhm. Yes. ;-) > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} Jaja... Gru?, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 3 07:56:40 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:56:40 -0600 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook Message-ID: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13 From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 09:53:25 2013 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:53:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201301021843.NAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 1/2/13, Mouse wrote: > From: Mouse > Someone upthread wrote that "reuseable code is define as code that can > be used without any code changes across many different unrelated > applications"[sic].? That was me, reuseable is an industry term means no source code changes, if you change the source and integrate it into another product it is called "salvage code", which has major implications as far as (re)testing is concern. Almost all code in industry is salvage mainly because, in my experience, any feature of reuseable code which is not perfect typically results in the rejection of the entire software package. You can't do this in hardware design, because most don't have fab shops in their basement. From wheagy at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:36:26 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: Good idea. Thanks for the plan. I'll give that a try. ---- And why would he do it with such a great memory board he has? It is just a matter of finding one (socketed) memory chip! :oD You can do a simple troubleshooting to discover which chip is defective without having 4164s there: Number chips from 1 to 16: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Now swap the first and last (1 and 16) and run the memory test No problems? swap 2 and 15, and run the memory test No problems, swap 3 and 14 and so on When you find that the last swap changed the position of memory error, you know that one of these two chips has problems :o) Since you said you have a //e, you can find 4164 as the main board memories of the //e. From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 10:57:03 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:57:03 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103073611.GC96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103073611.GC96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103165703.GA46856@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: [..] Now this looks even better: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. vax_cpudata: a000006 vax_cputype: a vax_boardtype: a000000 vax_boardtype(sie): a000009 fromnet: 1 >> NetBSD/vax boot [1.11 (Thu Jan 3 16:58:40 CET 2013)] << >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 SGEC: Ethernet address 00:00:f8:50:93:14 Trying BOOTP Using IP address: 192.168.50.20 myip: (192.168.50.20) root addr=192.168.50.50 path=/data/home/exports/rtvax 2587200+174320 [211280+200960]=0x3071a0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 800E2E9D >>> ...This is the netbsd6.0 Generic Kernel that knows nothing about the console or the Address of the SGEC oder the SLU. Now a Question about VAX Busses, the Card or better the rtVAX300 Processor has the SGEC internal, how should this bus bei called? I've copied that from some Information server, but now I have to work on the kernel... Any Hints? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 3 11:11:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:21 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:43:19 -0700 > Richard wrote: > > > Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't > > understand what Extreme Programming is about. > > Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. Then I don't see how that makes you qualified to proclaim things about it when you don't know what it is. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 3 11:15:35 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:15:35 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic at web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > --- On Wed, 1/2/13, Mouse wrote: > > > From: Mouse > > Someone upthread wrote that "reuseable code is define as code that can > > be used without any code changes across many different unrelated > > applications"[sic].? > > That was me, reuseable is an industry term means no source code changes, if > you change the source and integrate it into another product it is called > "salvage code", which has major implications as far as (re)testing is > concern. Almost all code in industry is salvage mainly because, in my > experience, any feature of reuseable code which is not perfect typically > results in the rejection of the entire software package. You can't do this > in hardware design, because most don't have fab shops in their basement. I would say that the libraries in boost qualify as a good example of reusable code for C++. Due to the intersection between members of the C++ standars committee and members of the boost community, many things have migrated from boost to the C++ standard, if not in literal API, then certainly in terms of concepts and strategies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 3 11:18:58 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:18:58 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > In article , > David Griffith writes: > > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > I noticed but could not identify: > 07:13 calligraphic graphics system with hidden line removal. Could be > an Evans & Sutherland LDS-1, but might be something earlier. > I've seen this system in several NASA films, but I've never been > able to get any information on the hardware used. Is it possible that this is an IBM 2250 vector display? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 11:46:39 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 12:46:39 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90876638-99A7-46FE-9B90-38AC226D8A7A@gmail.com> On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Win Heagy wrote: > When you find that the last swap changed the position of memory error, > you know that one of these two chips has problems :o) Since you said you > have a //e, you can find 4164 as the main board memories of the //e. 4164 and 41256 are dirt-cheap at Jameco if you live in the US: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_41662_-1 http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_41398_-1 41256s are even cheaper than 4164s, presumably because the supply is somewhat less depleted. They're both cheap in the general sense because they were EVERYWHERE back then, so there's a lot to pull them from. For folks restoring even older machines, 4116s are readily available there as well for a dollar each: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_41339_-1 I've seen arcade repair sites charging upwards of $5 each for 4116s. They are considerably hotter and less reliable than 4164s (+12v and -5v supplies, yuck), so it's always good to have lots of spares on hand. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 3 12:28:55 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:28:55 -0800 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> Message-ID: At 7:56 AM -0600 1/3/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: > >http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf Cool! Thanks, though some of us consider that pretty much state of the art! :-) Flipping through it, it would appear to have a couple useful ideas. Actually that site as a whole looks seriously cool, and very useful! There is a boatload of Tube Audio info there! :-) Thank you for the link! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 3 13:20:09 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:20:09 -0600 Subject: EZ-SCSI 4.1 Message-ID: <009801cde9e7$586bcf30$09436d90$@com> For those of you trying to deal with old Adaptec cards, like the AHA-15xx series, EZ-SCSI is needed, since they have no on-board controls, others than a few jumpers. The software came with some drives, but is hard to locate now. You can download the entire program here: ftp://82.199.101.173/install/System/Driverzzz/CD/SCSI/Adaptec%20EZ-SCSI%204. 01a%20-%201 Documentation is here: http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/scsi_sw/ez-scsi_4.01/install_sw/ez scsi_401_readme.htm?nc=/en-us/support/_eol/scsi_sw/ez-scsi_4.01/install_sw/e zscsi_401_readme.htm According to Adaptec, this will not work with anything higher than Win95 or NT, but you can use it in DOS or 3.1 Enjoy! Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 2 14:17:03 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:17:03 -0800 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50E495BF.8010300@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2013 11:52 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > That thing has build something like a sea map reader, like a flatbed > plotter with a lamp from the bottom of the map, pointing at the actual > location of a ship on that map. > Don't know how this may be called in english... Ship position or Course indicator. The course indicator would included if there were a ship symbol or some sort of indication on the map as to the orientation of the ship. If just a lighted blip, then just position indicator. Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 2 18:00:06 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:00:06 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2013 3:43 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > >> You can apply YAGNI in an absolute manner in your Extreme Programming >> monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. [...] > Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't > understand what Extreme Programming is about. I got yelled at because I was not breaking up my assignment to do a firmware for a mouse like device in "extreme" mode, nor did it seem to be useful to do it in "agile" mode. Hard to break down a task to take mouse input and send it to a usb port into "phases" that can be tested individually. Either it is a fricking mouse, or it is a pile of useless C code. I never did get it thru management's head that there wasn't much in between. BTW, it did succeed in turning about 1 1/2 weeks of work which could have been completed in a straight line into about 4 weeks on their schedule with some sort of excuse in their scrum meetings why it wasn't done, or where I was. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:18:18 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 21:18:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator Message-ID: With lots of help from members of this forum and other friends I made a high-speed paper tape reader emulator from a wire-wrapped interface board and an Emcraft SmartFusion FPGA evaluation board. The interface board plugs onto the Posibus interface slots in a PDP-8/L. I loaded Focal from a BIN paper tape image into a PDP-8/L in about 2 seconds. That equates to about 3000 characters per second. I put some details about the project here: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/pdp-8-l/making-a-posibus-periperal-emulator I will make an expanded version of the interface board and change to the Emcraft SOM FPGA board. That will give me enough I/O pins to emulate just about any peripheral that you can connect to the Posibus. It would be possible to make an interface board for the Negibus so that the peripheral emulator could be used on earlier PDP-8 systems. -- Michael Thompson From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 3 14:04:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:04:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201301032004.PAA09065@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hard to break down a task to take mouse input and send it to a usb > port into "phases" that can be tested individually. Doesn't sound that bad to me. (1) take mouse input; (2) send it to USB port. If the formats are different, there's also (3) convert from input format to output format. (2) may even be divisible into the USB stack and the send-mouse-data-over-USB, unless the USB stack is already provided (eg, by an OS, if there is an OS on the hardware in question). > Either it is a fricking mouse, or it is a pile of useless C code. I > never did get it thru management's head that there wasn't much in > between. Just because you had trouble seeing the "in between" doens't mean it's not there. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:06:22 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:06:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > With lots of help from members of this forum and other friends I made > a high-speed paper tape reader emulator from a wire-wrapped interface > board and an Emcraft SmartFusion FPGA evaluation board. Nice. > The interface board plugs onto the Posibus interface slots in a PDP-8/L. The PDP-8/L (and PDP-8/i) has slots for a PC8L (or PC8I). While I applaud anyone who gets a Posibus peripheral working, I wouldn't have thought that you could have just tapped into the slots for the PC8L directly at TTL levels (no open collector bus fiddling). > I will make an expanded version of the interface board and change to > the Emcraft SOM FPGA board. That will give me enough I/O pins to > emulate just about any peripheral that you can connect to the Posibus. That's far more useful than just a papertape emulator. Vince can probably tell you that I've wanted an "RX8L" for some time. I have a PDP-8/L with 12K (via BM08L expansion cabinet) on which I've wanted to run OS/8 for 25 years but have never had mass storage for. Adding an RX01 to a PDP-8/L seemed to be the "simplest" solution at one point. > It would be possible to make an interface board for the Negibus so > that the peripheral emulator could be used on earlier PDP-8 systems. That would also be useful - I have a PDP-8/i that I'd love to get above 4K that I'd also love to run OS/8 on but I figured that the -8/L would happen first since it already had enough core. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:40:23 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:40:23 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: will this work with an 8a? From spc at conman.org Thu Jan 3 14:41:22 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:41:22 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201301032004.PAA09065@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> <201301032004.PAA09065@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130103204122.GB26197@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > Hard to break down a task to take mouse input and send it to a usb > > port into "phases" that can be tested individually. > > Doesn't sound that bad to me. (1) take mouse input; (2) send it to USB > port. If the formats are different, there's also (3) convert from > input format to output format. (2) may even be divisible into the USB > stack and the send-mouse-data-over-USB, unless the USB stack is already > provided (eg, by an OS, if there is an OS on the hardware in question). > > > Either it is a fricking mouse, or it is a pile of useless C code. I > > never did get it thru management's head that there wasn't much in > > between. > > Just because you had trouble seeing the "in between" doens't mean it's > not there. But it's an awfully small "there". I'm thankful we don't have to deal with Agile where I work as I feel the concept is meaningless with respect to the coding we do. My job here is to test several coponents of a much larger product; each component (and there are six we're responsible for) are independent programs that all communicate amongst themselves. Each program is conceptually simple. For instance, one component waits for two particular SS7 [1] messages, does some data lookups and sends a request to another piece over IP; it then waits for a reply on the IP side before responding to the SS7 network. The second component receives the message (from the SS7 component), does some data lookup, and it might in fact send a DNS query [5], send a message to a cell phone [6] and wait for the cell phone to query back to the component before replying to the SS7 component. Perhaps I'm not imaginative enough, but I personally have a hard time seeing how Agile, scrum meetings and test-driven design [3] applies to the project. Heck, it's hard enough testing the fully written components (especially the SS7 component [7]), much less unit testing on individual routines (each component is a "unit"---I can't see any further decomposition going on). It doesn't help that the components are written in C *and* C++ (with respect to unit testing). I best stop before I go into full-on-rant mode. -spc (Running a regression test takes at least a half-hour to set up and that's if everything is running smoothly ... [8]) [1] Signaling System 7---a telelphony network stack [2] [2] and the stack we use *SUCKS* but I've been advised that the SS7 stack we use is, in fact, *BEST OF BREED*, which doesn't bode well for SS7 stacks in general. [9] [3] Okay, I can't tell if the following article series is satire or a genuine attempt at test-driven design: http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/OkSudoku http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/Sudoku2 http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/SudokuMusings http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/Sudoku4 http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/sudoku5 I mean, it's Ron Jefferies, who I understand is a cheerleader for Agile development, but then, he says stuff like: def square_indexes(square_number) result = [] first_row = square_number / 3 first_column = (square_number % 3) * 3 first_row.upto(first_row+2) do | row | first_column.upto(first_column+2) do | col | cell_number = row * 9 + col result.push(cell_number) end end result end That?s a lot of code, and I?m afraid it won?t work. When did 14 lines of code become "a lot"? Is he serious? [4] [4] Please tell me he was writing satire. [5] Caller ID internally is done using DNS records. NAPTR records in fact. Surprising, but on retrospect, it's not a bad match. [6] SMS or proprietary protocol, depending on how fast the SMS network for the vendor is. [7] "One does not simply 'walk' into Mordor," was the response I got when I asked about SS7 networks. [8] Two years and only just last month did I learn that once I open up an SS7 endpoint, I *may* have to wait up to 30 seconds for it to "register" with the network, else sending messages will fail. Did I mention that the SS7 stack we use *SUCKS*? [9] For instance, it maintains static data behind your back. And error conditions? Yeah, you have to crawl into memory *past* a structure to get the actual reason for the error. Seriously. It *SUCKS*. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 3 14:49:09 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 12:49:09 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > will this work with an 8a? > > you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jan 3 14:58:54 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:58:54 +0100 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> Message-ID: Pretty book. Thanks ! Sergio 2013/1/3 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: > > > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13 > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 15:08:48 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:08:48 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: is there such a thing? On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> will this work with an 8a? >> >> >> you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 3 15:13:42 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:13:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/13 1:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > is there such a thing? > M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> will this work with an 8a? >>> >>> >>> you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board >> >> >> > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 15:19:08 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:19:08 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: txs On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/3/13 1:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> is there such a thing? >> >> M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> will this work with an 8a? >>>> >>>> >>>> you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From vrs at msn.com Thu Jan 3 15:38:28 2013 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:38:28 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Michael Thompson: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:18 PM > With lots of help from members of this forum and other friends I made > a high-speed paper tape reader emulator from a wire-wrapped interface > board and an Emcraft SmartFusion FPGA evaluation board. The interface > board plugs onto the Posibus interface slots in a PDP-8/L. > > I loaded Focal from a BIN paper tape image into a PDP-8/L in about 2 > seconds. That equates to about 3000 characters per second. Nice! It is good to see someone actually get a PDP-8 FPGA peripheral of this sort working. A number of folks have talked about it, but not got anything actually running. ( know of at least one success with a PDP-11, though.) > I will make an expanded version of the interface board and change to > the Emcraft SOM FPGA board. That will give me enough I/O pins to > emulate just about any peripheral that you can connect to the Posibus. That should make possible the RX08 emulation that Ethan is looking for. That doesn't even need DMA/Data Break, just both directions of Posibus. > It would be possible to make an interface board for the Negibus so > that the peripheral emulator could be used on earlier PDP-8 systems. Seems like that should be straight-forward. There aren't a whole bunch of working examples of those left, though :-(. I like Posibus, since all the later machines (including Adrian's 8/A) have Posibus as an available interface, and the conversion to/from Negibus is just voltage level conversion. So if one does a Posibus peripheral, it seems like it should be useful on 'most any PDP-8 (DECmate, not so much). It's also dead simple, though it uses a fantastic amount of wire and connectors, especially by today's standards. Good work! Vince From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 16:00:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:00:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... Message-ID: I've got the first files online here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. I'd like it if one of you that knew Don could write up a small blurb I could use as an introduction to the archive. I'll be getting the rest of it online as I have time. Thanks folks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 3 15:52:15 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:52:15 +0000 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> Message-ID: <50E5FD8F.2070109@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/01/2013 13:56, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf Neat! I'm sure I actually borrowed that from the library and read it when I was a teenager. Some of the ideas and diagrams are very familiar. I used to have a VTVM with a very similar circuit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 17:33:00 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:33:00 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Are you scanning them for viruses out of curiosity? I'm curious how many are truly infected vs false positives. -----Original Message----- From: geneb Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:00:16 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Don Maslin archive... I've got the first files online here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. I'd like it if one of you that knew Don could write up a small blurb I could use as an introduction to the archive. I'll be getting the rest of it online as I have time. Thanks folks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Jan 3 17:44:11 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 00:44:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 09:38:06AM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > On 2013-01-02 14:06, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Arrgl! > > > > > >The MOP Format seems to be the point. > > >I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree > > >I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file > > >(wich I don't have) to the mop format. > > > > > >NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an > > >ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a > > >mop-file. > > > > What about putting this discussion to port-vax at netbsd.org? > > (you have to sign in ...) > > > > I really don't mind having this discussion here, actually I love it, > > but at the port-vax you get more help booting a vax on netbsd ;-) > > Yea, tought about this already, but currently I don't habe any other NetBSD > installation running or habe access to one. > Maybe I put thogether a uVAXII again next time so that I have at least one > native system to try .. > > What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Maybei my VS4000 ist the > fastest way (besides of compile time). NetBSD/vax runs just fine inside SIMH. BTDT ;-) It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 3 17:47:20 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:47:20 -0800 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <50E5FD8F.2070109@dunnington.plus.com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> <50E5FD8F.2070109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50E61888.5060307@sydex.com> On 01/03/2013 01:52 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Neat! I'm sure I actually borrowed that from the library and read it > when I was a teenager. Some of the ideas and diagrams are very > familiar. I used to have a VTVM with a very similar circuit. Scribd also has a fair number of articles from the olden days. For example: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8104522/Radio-Simplified- --Chuck From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jan 3 20:52:11 2013 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 03:52:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2013-01-04 00:44:11 +0100, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 09:38:06AM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Maybei my VS4000 ist the > > fastest way (besides of compile time). > > NetBSD/vax runs just fine inside SIMH. BTDT ;-) > > It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares > to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. Some guy started to hack support for Qemu. I don't know the innards of Qemu, but IIRC he told me that it's driving something like a just-in-time-recompilation approach. If it ever gets to a useable state (ie. the ISA is implemented and enough devices to boot something useful), that might be *quite* fast. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Wenn ich wach bin, tr?ume ich. the second : From jon at jonworld.com Thu Jan 3 21:05:45 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 22:05:45 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares >> to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. > > Some guy started to hack support for Qemu. I don't know the innards of > Qemu, but IIRC he told me that it's driving something like a What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and our virtual machines. Especially if it's done with a vintage OS (like BSD 4.3-Something) and its original compilers which probably don't optimize as well as gcc (although, optimization for VAX in a modern compiler? That's another can of worms.) But running a circa 1984 benchmark on an OS written in 1986 and compare that to known big iron (The VAX 11/780 was clocked with a Dhrystone of 1757 per Wikipedia) to simh running on one of our desktops. I think I know what I'm going to stay up late working on. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 21:26:11 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:26:11 -0800 Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop Message-ID: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> Hi all -- Picked up an interesting old "laptop" -- a GRiDCase 1537E. This is a Tempest-hardened devicewith (I believe) a 386 processor. Also looks to have an electroluminescent display. Inside there isn't a single exposed wire or circuit board, so any debugging I might need to dowill be a fun prospect. At any rate, I didn't get the AC adapter with this thing and it's got an odd connector that I'm not familiar with. See here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png The connector's abit over 1cm in diameter with three oddly-spaced pins. I'dlike to build areplacement assuming I can work out the pinouts (and find/fabricate a mating connector). Anyone know anything about this machine?Any ideas where to find such a connector? Thanks, Josh From wilson at dbit.com Thu Jan 3 22:31:11 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:31:11 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20130104043111.GA27306@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 01:13:42PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface $300ish on eBay recently (too rich for my blood -- maybe they'd take an offer?) John Wilson D Bit From jon at jonworld.com Thu Jan 3 22:32:34 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:32:34 -0500 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and I found the following C version of Dhrystone 1.1 at the following URL: http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmpe202/benchmarks/standard/dhrystone.c I have simh-780 running BSD 4.3 found via these instructions: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH It's hosted on an OpenBSD VM on my MacBook Pro. It has one CPU assigned: cpu0: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3615QM CPU @ 2.30GHz, 2278.19 MHz I used the BSD 4.3 compiler (not gcc), HZ=60, TIMES, and I did NOT use the register setting. According to the source code similar software configurations on a true 11/780 did around 1400 Dhrystones (the version 1.0 of the code had an error, so I'm going off of the 1.1 results in the file.) kremvax# ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000 passes = 12 This machine benchmarks at 40376 dhrystones/second I upped it to LOOPS at 50000000 to get a number that may make more sense, since we're comparing GHZ to MHZ and I think CPUs these days have more on-die cache than some of these systems had in RAM. kremvax# ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 50000000 passes = 1266 This machine benchmarks at -17034 dhrystones/second OOPS! I think I need to go find a long I left behind somewhere. OK, one more time with LOOPS set to 5000000. ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 5000000 passes = 133 This machine benchmarks at 37425 dhrystones/second OK, interesting. Finally, I did one more with the REGS setting. kremvax# ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 5000000 passes = 119 This machine benchmarks at 41811 dhrystones/second So we're looking at 29 times faster. -Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jan 3 22:35:22 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:35:22 -0500 Subject: Benchmarking, Dhrystone flaws - Re: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <50E65C0A.7070009@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/01/13 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >>> It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares >>> to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. >> >> Some guy started to hack support for Qemu. I don't know the innards of >> Qemu, but IIRC he told me that it's driving something like a > > What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and our virtual machines. Especially if it's done with a vintage OS (like BSD 4.3-Something) and its original compilers which probably don't optimize as well as gcc (although, optimization for VAX in a modern compiler? That's another can of worms.) But running a circa 1984 benchmark on an OS written in 1986 and compare that to known big iron (The VAX 11/780 was clocked with a Dhrystone of 1757 per Wikipedia) to simh running on one of our desktops. Dhrystone was never a great benchmark; it was a poor workload mix and manufacturers famously gamed it, tweaking their runtimes or even their hardware for it. This one is better, and figures are published for quite old machines: http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4/fhour.html It does however take a few megabytes of RAM. --Toby > > I think I know what I'm going to stay up late working on. > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 3 22:47:08 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:47:08 -0800 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: At 11:32 PM -0500 1/3/13, Jonathan Katz wrote: >On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > > What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those >were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern >emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real >big iron and >So we're looking at 29 times faster. About 200Mhz increments on x86 CPU's a decade ago KLH10 was supposed to be about 1x the speed of a PDP-10, do a 1Ghz CPU at that time was supposed to be about 5x. I know Jerome Fine should have some #'s on PDP-11 emulation. I really should finish getting VMS up and running under SIMH on my late-2010 2.4Ghz 8-core Mac Pro. If you're getting 29x on a laptop, that's one seriously usable VAX. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jan 3 22:55:57 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:55:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> What ever happened to the or iginal Dhrystone tests? Since those were >>designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may >>give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and > > I found the following C version of Dhrystone 1.1 at the following URL: > http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmpe202/benchmarks/standard/dhrystone.c > > I have simh-780 running BSD 4.3 found via these instructions: > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH Just for grins I compiled and ran this on a Thinkpad T42 and I got this: $ ./drynr ; ./dryr Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 85 This machine benchmarks at 5882352 dhrystones/second Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 90 This machine benchmarks at 5555555 dhrystones/second Did I top out the limits of Dhrystone? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 3 23:13:14 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:13:14 -0800 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <50E664EA.4070206@sydex.com> Anyone compared LINPACK speeds on SIMH as emulated compared to vintage hardware? It's been a long time since I ran that. Does LINPACK exist only in FORTRAN? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jan 3 23:48:04 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 00:48:04 -0500 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <50E66D14.8070200@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/01/13 11:55 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> What ever happened to the or iginal Dhrystone tests? Since those were >>> designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator >>> may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and >> >> I found the following C version of Dhrystone 1.1 at the following URL: >> http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmpe202/benchmarks/standard/dhrystone.c >> >> I have simh-780 running BSD 4.3 found via these instructions: >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH > > Just for grins I compiled and ran this on a Thinkpad T42 and I got this: > > $ ./drynr ; ./dryr > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 85 > This machine benchmarks at 5882352 dhrystones/second > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 90 > This machine benchmarks at 5555555 dhrystones/second > > Did I top out the limits of Dhrystone? > Quite possibly. Timings over short intervals will give poor results. What is needed is a better benchmark :) --Toby From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jan 4 03:52:51 2013 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:52:51 -0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50E495BF.8010300@jwsss.com> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E495BF.8010300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <22FEB459E3464B5192B7D6D7554887FB@MailBox> Seeburg Tisch Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s Sent: 02 January 2013 20:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: rtVAX 300. On 1/2/2013 11:52 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > That thing has build something like a sea map reader, like a flatbed > plotter with a lamp from the bottom of the map, pointing at the actual > location of a ship on that map. > Don't know how this may be called in english... Ship position or Course indicator. The course indicator would included if there were a ship symbol or some sort of indication on the map as to the orientation of the ship. If just a lighted blip, then just position indicator. Jim From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 4 04:17:16 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:17:16 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:21 -0700 Richard wrote: > > Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. > Then I don't see how that makes you qualified to proclaim things about > it when you don't know what it is. Because you can replace Extreme Programming with any other software engineering methodology. Good ons and bad ons. A software engineering methodology is a tool. There are several such tools. You have to know when and how to deploy what exact tool. Maybe you even have to build your own tool with parts from other tools. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 05:52:12 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:52:12 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 3 January 2013 23:44, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares > to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. At a guess, I would guess that this question boils down to "just how many orders of magnitude faster is the x86 box?" I'd expect at /least/ two OOM. Three might be distinctly possible if comparing to a really old, low-end VAX chip, such as, say, an rtVAX 300. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jan 4 07:18:38 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:18:38 -0500 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:55 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Just for grins I compiled and ran this on a Thinkpad T42 and I got this: > > $ ./drynr ; ./dryr > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 85 > This machine benchmarks at 5882352 dhrystones/second > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 90 > This machine benchmarks at 5555555 dhrystones/second Probably hit a limit with the size of the 'int' type or similar with 1.1. There is a 2.0/2.1 package out there which will run on more modern gear, but I couldn't get it to compile with the standard C compiler under BSD 4.3. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 07:51:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 05:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Are you scanning them for viruses out of curiosity? I'm curious how > many are truly infected vs false positives. I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jan 4 08:24:35 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:24:35 -0600 Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop In-Reply-To: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> References: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01cdea87$388b24e0$a9a16ea0$@com> The link does not work? I have some Grid AC adapters here, but I don't know if they are what you want without the pic. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop Hi all -- Picked up an interesting old "laptop" -- a GRiDCase 1537E. This is a Tempest-hardened devicewith (I believe) a 386 processor. Also looks to have an electroluminescent display. Inside there isn't a single exposed wire or circuit board, so any debugging I might need to dowill be a fun prospect. At any rate, I didn't get the AC adapter with this thing and it's got an odd connector that I'm not familiar with. See here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png The connector's a bit over 1cm in diameter with three oddly-spaced pins. I'dlike to build areplacement assuming I can work out the pinouts (and find/fabricate a mating connector). Anyone know anything about this machine? Any ideas where to find such a connector? Thanks, Josh ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 4 08:43:22 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 15:43:22 +0100 Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals Message-ID: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 protocol analyzer. If somebody has a copy for me I would be very happy. -Rik PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a but busted and the tape drive is missing but it seems to work. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:37:28 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:37:28 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I've got the first files online here: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin > > So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. > Thank you so much for doing this. I have a Bondwell 8 bit luggable that I was communicating with Don before. I would be particularly interested in the boot software for this machine when it gets up. Thanks again. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 10:56:07 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 09:56:07 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:21 -0700 > Richard wrote: > > > > Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. > > Then I don't see how that makes you qualified to proclaim things about > > it when you don't know what it is. > Because you can replace Extreme Programming with any other software > engineering methodology. Good ons and bad ons. Non sequitur. Because all software methodologies are methodologies does not qualify you to make claims about a methodology you know nothing about. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 10:59:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:59:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a > legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. certainly not live. But, some PC viruses, such as "Stoned" (which was also modified slightly and re-released as a wannabe for the NON-EXISTENT "Michelangelo") can be dumb enough to try to write themselves to track 0 sector 1 of any disk in a drive of the PC, disunirregardless of whether that disk is capable of transmitting it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 11:12:26 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals In-Reply-To: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> References: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 protocol > analyzer. > If somebody has a copy for me I would be very happy. > PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a but busted and the tape > drive is missing but it seems to work. http://www.etestmanuals.com/Search.aspx?Mfg=ATR has some Atlantic Research manuals, but they aren't very cheap. I have an Atlantic Research Data-Tek 9600 that I'm trying to part with. (They want $25 for the manual with cschematics for it) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 11:30:51 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> I've got the first files online here: >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin >> >> So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. >> > > Thank you so much for doing this. I have a Bondwell 8 bit luggable > that I was communicating with Don before. I would be particularly > interested in the boot software for this machine when it gets up. > You're quite welcome Paxton. I just put the Bondwell images up for you. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 11:42:09 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:42:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >> I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a >> legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. > > certainly not live. > > But, some PC viruses, such as "Stoned" (which was also modified slightly > and re-released as a wannabe for the NON-EXISTENT "Michelangelo") can be > dumb enough to try to write themselves to track 0 sector 1 of any disk in > a drive of the PC, disunirregardless of whether that disk is capable of > transmitting it. Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two instances of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 4 11:48:12 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 09:48:12 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/13 9:42 AM, geneb wrote: > As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. > The issue, which most people don't seem to be getting, was that he used a PC to image the disks. If THAT system was infected at some point, any files touched, including the .TD0 files, could be effected. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 4 12:15:01 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 18:15:01 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> geneb writes: > As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. "Elk Cloner" for the Apple II, according to Rich Skrenta went wild in 1982. Was written up very nicely in a Scientific American article in March 1985 (good enough that I wrote a "me too" virus based on the article.) Very similar to what a IBM-PC guy would call "a boot sector virus" (although really there's a little more than that in either the Apple II or PC-clone cases.) It would be interesting if any of the Apple II disk image archives, have Elk Cloner or lookalikes in them. I once thought about automating such a search as an addition over the effort to index the Apple II disk images floating around on the net. Haven't thought of that in, oh, nearly 20 years now!!! Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 12:32:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:32:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20130104100008.V8770@shell.lmi.net> > > As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > The issue, which most people don't seem to be getting, was that he used > a PC to image the disks. Absolutely! > If THAT system was infected at some point, any files touched, including > the .TD0 files, could be effected. Boot sector viruses were much more common, and so simple that they didn't check whether a disk was bootable before writing to it. If written BEFORE he creted the .TDO from it, . . . then track 0 sector 1 within the image of disks with 512 byte sectors, . . . Executable file viruses normally went after .EXE and sometimes .COM files. Did ANY go after .TDO files? For most of Don't alien disk work, the disk was an image, and FILES were not recognizable as such. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:04:52 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:04:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/4/13 9:42 AM, geneb wrote: >> As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit >> machine. >> > > The issue, which most people don't seem to be getting, was that he used a PC > to image the disks. > If THAT system was infected at some point, any files touched, including the > .TD0 files, could > be effected. If the teledisk images were damaged (possible, but unlikely), the only thing you'd have is a damaged file, not an infection vector. Disk images for 8 inch disk systems and the Kaypro ROM collection are now online. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:05:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:05:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > geneb writes: >> As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. > > "Elk Cloner" for the Apple II, according to Rich Skrenta went wild in > 1982. Was written up very nicely in a Scientific American article in > March 1985 (good enough that I wrote a "me too" virus based on the > article.) > > Very similar to what a IBM-PC guy would call "a boot sector virus" > (although really there's a little more than that in either the Apple II > or PC-clone cases.) > > It would be interesting if any of the Apple II disk image archives, have > Elk Cloner or lookalikes in them. I once thought about automating such a > search as an addition over the effort to index the Apple II disk images > floating around on the net. Haven't thought of that in, oh, nearly 20 > years now!!! Ah, I'd forgotten about that one. Thanks Tim. Anything for CP/M? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jan 4 13:11:34 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 19:11:34 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873D7E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Shoppa, Tim Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 10:15 AM > Subject: Re: 8 bit virii I have nothing to add regarding the technical discussion. I just want to point out that there is no such Latin word as "virii". Latin o-stems ("masculines ending in -us in the nominative singular and neuters ending in -um in the nominative and accusative singular", for the classically trained) form their nominative plural with the ending -i. *Only* those o-stems in which an -i- precedes the ending, such as the _gens_ ("family name") _Cornelius_, show a final -ii. (You would refer to all the members of the Cornelius family as the _Cornelii_.) _virus_ is an oddity. It is an o-stem, but it is a neuter, not a masculine (that is, we would expect "virum" if it followed the usual formation rule). Furthermore, it is a mass noun, meaning "slime, poison", rather than a count noun. (Cf. English "milk" vs. "goat"--although it is possible in English to form a plural of a mass noun like "milk", the meaning of "milks" is "kinds of milk, milk from different sources", and Latin does not permit this formation.) So in Latin, _virus_ only occurs in the singular. Now, *in English*, the word "virus" has been borrowed from Latin but is treated by the grammar of English as an ordinary count noun, and the plural is "viruses". I have no objection the formation of a Latinate plural "viri" or "virii", I simply want those making such to do so knowingly. ;-) We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic drift. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 4 13:19:31 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:19:31 +0100 Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals In-Reply-To: <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> References: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000001cdeab0$6fe1dff0$4fa59fd0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Fred Cisin > Verzonden: vrijdag 4 januari 2013 18:12 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Atlantic research 4500 manuals > > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > > I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 > > protocol analyzer. > > If somebody has a copy for me I would be very happy. > > PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a but busted and the > > tape drive is missing but it seems to work. > > http://www.etestmanuals.com/Search.aspx?Mfg=ATR > has some Atlantic Research manuals, but they aren't very cheap. > > > I have an Atlantic Research Data-Tek 9600 that I'm trying to part with. > (They want $25 for the manual with cschematics for it) > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Thanks, they aren't cheap and they only have the training manual for the Interview 4500 which isn't much of use for me. -Rik From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:19:43 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130104111801.I8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a > legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. "legitimate"?? Placed on the media by a PC, yes. Capable of infecting the 8 bit machine, NO. There did, however, exist some Apple][ viruses From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:23:18 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:23:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130104112001.P8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a > legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. although a boot-sector virus might write to track 0 sector 1 of an alien disk, it would be inert to that 8 bit computer. The virus scanner, even if it found the "boot sector" to be infected, would then CRASH when it couldn't understand the alien directory. Graceful recovery from unexpected conditions is not the strongpoint of design in this era. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 13:29:37 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 11:29:37 -0800 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50E72DA1.6000208@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 11:05 AM, geneb wrote: > Anything for CP/M? :) I've never seen one and I think it highly unlikely. The organization of hardware from one vendor to the next was just not worth exploiting, given a relatively small community of each market segment. Not saying that it wasn't possible, but unlikely that such a virus could propagate successfully. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 13:33:01 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:33:01 -0700 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: In article , geneb writes: > Anything for CP/M? :) I believe there were viruses for Amiga and Atari ST, both of which were M68K based. Not sure about C=64 and the 8-bit Ataris. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 13:53:00 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 14:53:00 -0500 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , Message-ID: There were c-64 viruses, here's a technical document about them, http://hitmen.c02.at/files/docs/c64/C64_Virus_List.txt though I had never really heard of any of these or seen them Dan. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 8 bit virii > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:33:01 -0700 > > > In article , > geneb writes: > > > Anything for CP/M? :) > > I believe there were viruses for Amiga and Atari ST, both of which > were M68K based. Not sure about C=64 and the 8-bit Ataris. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From polemon at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 13:57:08 2013 From: polemon at gmail.com (polemon) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:57:08 +0100 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <20130102152838.A54882@shell.lmi.net> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <20130102152838.A54882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130104205708.41058205@polemon.localdomain> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:29:06 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > floppy disk? I'd say floppy disks were a thing of the eighties. Things like Commodore 64 and small computers around that time frame, etc. Iconic of the PC-System (that is, an IBM PC kind of computer) would be a CD, when looking at removable storage media. Tape reels are fun to look at, it looks cool when they're accessed, especially when they're accessing chunks of data at a time, the reels spin in this jerky manner. You usually don't see CDs spinning inside the drives, but they look nice as it is. The prism effect of them makes it pretty Iconic even without seeing them spinning. I would imagine, that flashy gaming equipment would be pretty memorable in fifty years or so. People making fun how people "back then" would decorate and casemod their computers to make them better looking. Same thing with things like Logitech G11, etc. Probably the era after that would be defined by smartphones and tablet computers. -- echo "cbyrzba at cbyrzba.bet" | tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]' From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 14:18:49 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 13:18:49 -0700 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , Message-ID: In article , Dan Gahlinger writes: > There were c-64 viruses, here's a technical document about them, > http://hitmen.c02.at/files/docs/c64/C64_Virus_List.txt > though I had never really heard of any of these or seen them Interestingly enough, that text file claims that there was a virus for CP/M :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 4 14:19:17 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:19:17 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Polemon writes: > Iconic of the > PC-System (that is, an IBM PC kind of computer) would be a CD, > when looking at removable storage media. It's funny how for many, the "IBM PC 5150" is not an "IBM PC kind of computer". I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips CM100 player? Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 14:26:12 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 15:26:12 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:00 PM, geneb wrote: > I've got the first files online here: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin Thanks for the 8" images. I have a XOR I need to make a disk for. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 14:44:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20130104123811.E8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > It's funny how for many, the "IBM PC 5150" is not an "IBM PC kind of > computer". Yeah. WTF is "PC era"? > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips CM100 > player? I used CD-ROMs [with proprietary interfaces] on 5160s a lot. I tried one (Hitachi?) on a 5150, but the boot floppy was inconvenient Drivers prior to DOS 3.10 were especially awkward. Yes, it could be done, but I would agree with the "don't even try" From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 14:46:10 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:46:10 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for > Philips CM100 player? Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost it somewhere along the way. Bill S. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 14:46:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <20130104111801.I8770@shell.lmi.net> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104111801.I8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >> I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a >> legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. > > "legitimate"?? > Placed on the media by a PC, yes. > Capable of infecting the 8 bit machine, NO. > I say "legitimate" because Norton was notorious for deciding certain H-89 programs were infected with some nasty, windows only virus. As if. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 14:50:39 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:50:39 -0800 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , Message-ID: <50E7409F.9050704@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 12:18 PM, Richard wrote: > Interestingly enough, that text file claims that there was a virus for > CP/M :-) I'm not saying it's impossible, but all I see there is a "claim" and exactly WHAT version/vendor of CP/M isn't given, nor what the virus does as well as its transmission method. So, as in "free energy" technology, the evidence seems to be hearsay. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 4 14:58:04 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:58:04 -0500 Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> Hi all, Been having some health issues as of late and bills are pouring in faster than money is coming in so I have to make a tough decision and sell my Mindset Computer Corporation Collection. I am only selling as a whole as I don't want this collection broken up. I'm gauging interest, please email at: curt(at)atarimuseum(dot)com Many have seen quite a lot of my collection as it was on display at a recent VCF East show and one an award. I have over a 1/2 dozen CPU units, expansion modules, plug in peripheral modules, keyboards, joysticks, mice, tons of software, applications, and games, many are in original boxes and are original disks, I have a huge developers manual, marketing materials, units in boxes, a keyboard in a box, peripheral accessories in boxes (many in never opened/sealed boxes), I have one of the only Mindset software carrying case bags, and much more. Need to put together a more detailed inventory, but it is extensive. Here are some photo's of a good bit of the collection (monitors are not included): http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel2.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel4.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel3.jpg Will also included domain: www.mindsetcomputer.com with sale... Regards, Curt From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 15:02:22 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:02:22 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0c6d01cdeabe$cb373090$61a591b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for > > Philips CM100 player? > > Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company > I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. > It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They > would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass > master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of > those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost > it somewhere along the way. > As I think about it, I'm pretty sure I have a CM110 (the SCSI interface version) in a box around here somewhere. Bill S. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Jan 4 15:19:33 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 21:19:33 -0000 Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals In-Reply-To: <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > > I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 > > protocol analyzer. If somebody has a copy for me I would be very > > happy. PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a > but busted > > and the tape drive is missing but it seems to work. I'm fairly sure I have the ARC manuals for the Interview 7000 Series and the Interview 8000 Series. I don't know if these are close enough to be of use? Let me know if you'd like copies (these are PDFs). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 4 15:27:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:27:30 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> On 01/04/2013 03:46 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company > I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. > It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They > would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass > master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of > those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost > it somewhere along the way. You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by the name of "Murf", did you? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 15:49:56 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:49:56 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0c7d01cdeac5$6fd1f4e0$4f75dea0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions > who went by the name of "Murf", did you? No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark days. Bill S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 4 15:59:38 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:59:38 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <0c7d01cdeac5$6fd1f4e0$4f75dea0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <0c7d01cdeac5$6fd1f4e0$4f75dea0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50E750CA.2080803@neurotica.com> On 01/04/2013 04:49 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions >> who went by the name of "Murf", did you? > > No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at > Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated > Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked > for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a > a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like > the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's > first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom > drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark > days. Ok, different gang. Fortunately for you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 15:59:53 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:59:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <50E7409F.9050704@sydex.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , <50E7409F.9050704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130104134832.E13129@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm not saying it's impossible, but all I see there is a "claim" and > exactly WHAT version/vendor of CP/M isn't given, nor what the virus does > as well as its transmission method. > So, as in "free energy" technology, the evidence seems to be hearsay. I agree with Chuck that a BOOT-SECTOR virus would be doubtful for CP/M, due to the lack of standardization of format. It could still have been done for a specific CP/M implementation, such as APPLE CP/M, Commode 128, Kaypro, Osborne, Superbrain, or maybe even 8"SSSD. It would have to be written for a specific one. Which ones attracted that mindset? OTOH, an executable file virus would not be subject to THAT limitation, and could have been done. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:19:00 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:19:00 -0600 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> On 01/02/2013 05:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> You expect people in 50 years time to care about anything that happened 50 >> years ago? The current generation seem to think of last week as ancient >> history :-( > > Yeah, just like you and me and everyone else when we were 14. > > People grown to like history. Well, I knew plenty of people when I was that age who were interested in history; they still had to be engaged in the first place, of course - but once they were, what they'd seen tended to stick with them and often prompted them to seek out similar things or more information. I suppose it's that which seems to have been eroded over time; today people will see something that they think is cool for all of five minutes, before moving on to something else. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 16:27:59 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:27:59 -0700 Subject: ADD (was: NASA computers circa 1969) In-Reply-To: <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <50E75554.7040005 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > I suppose it's that which seems to have been eroded over time; today people > will see something that they think is cool for all of five minutes, before > moving on to something else. One big difference between now and earlier decades is that "something new" shows up every 5 minutes now, whereas before new things showed up at a slower rate. It's a consequence of exponential technological change creating an exponential increase in novel items. There was a time, within the memory of many (most?) on this list, when you could stay current with the entire field of computer science. When I graduated college in 1986, it was still possible to stay current with the entire subfield of computer graphics. Now it is impossible to stay current with the subfield of computer graphics that is computer gaming. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:39:36 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 22:39:36 +0000 Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available In-Reply-To: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> References: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1706800870-1357339175-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-958779899-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Sorry to hear the news. Where is the collection located? (Ny?) Would you like this reposted on vintage computer forums or old-computers.com (you have an account on vcf at least so don't mean to step on toes). Best of luck with the sale :-) I do have a pleasant confidence that there are great collectors out there to take on the project. -----Original Message----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:58:04 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available Hi all, Been having some health issues as of late and bills are pouring in faster than money is coming in so I have to make a tough decision and sell my Mindset Computer Corporation Collection. I am only selling as a whole as I don't want this collection broken up. I'm gauging interest, please email at: curt(at)atarimuseum(dot)com Many have seen quite a lot of my collection as it was on display at a recent VCF East show and one an award. I have over a 1/2 dozen CPU units, expansion modules, plug in peripheral modules, keyboards, joysticks, mice, tons of software, applications, and games, many are in original boxes and are original disks, I have a huge developers manual, marketing materials, units in boxes, a keyboard in a box, peripheral accessories in boxes (many in never opened/sealed boxes), I have one of the only Mindset software carrying case bags, and much more. Need to put together a more detailed inventory, but it is extensive. Here are some photo's of a good bit of the collection (monitors are not included): http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel2.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel4.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel3.jpg Will also included domain: www.mindsetcomputer.com with sale... Regards, Curt From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 4 16:43:34 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:43:34 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload Message-ID: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 more that you ever wanted to know. there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:49:42 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:49:42 -0200 Subject: ADD (was: NASA computers circa 1969) References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54ADAB0EF54C49718A4FE06466B963C7@tababook> > One big difference between now and earlier decades is that "something > new" shows up every 5 minutes now, whereas before new things showed up > at a slower rate. It's a consequence of exponential technological > change creating an exponential increase in novel items. You can download all 10K+ MAME games, and only play Pengo (1982, SEGA). The rate of news never was SO fast! > There was a time, within the memory of many (most?) on this list, when > you could stay current with the entire field of computer science. > When I graduated college in 1986, it was still possible to stay > current with the entire subfield of computer graphics. Now it is > impossible to stay current with the subfield of computer graphics that > is computer gaming. And each time I set my eyes on that, I still think this is alien technology, and John Carmack is from another galaxy. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:08:14 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:08:14 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E760DE.6040509@gmail.com> On 1/4/2013 2:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. > Cool beans. Thanks again for all your hard work. Is Series/1 software going to end up there too ? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 4 17:12:59 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:12:59 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E760DE.6040509@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E760DE.6040509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E761FB.7020901@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/13 3:08 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Is Series/1 software going to end up there too ? > no I've posted several personal messages to you about this, none of which you've replied to. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 17:13:08 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:13:08 -0800 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E76204.6030605@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 02:19 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I suppose it's that which seems to have been eroded over time; today > people will see something that they think is cool for all of five > minutes, before moving on to something else. My guess is that 50 years from today, people will view the idea of a personal computer as something so bulky that you could actually hold it in your hands, rather than have it implanted in your skull. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:15:19 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:15:19 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E76287.4040000@gmail.com> On 04/01/2013 22:43, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. > You may be missing SH30-0237-0 IBM Series/1 - The Small Computer Concept - James D. Schoeffler but is a perfect bound paperback so not sure how to scan it..... Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 18:57:56 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 00:57:56 +0000 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> What country/nationality are those names? I'm jealous. They sound straight out of a Tolkien novel. -----Original Message----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:49:56 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 Dave McGuire wrote: > You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions > who went by the name of "Murf", did you? No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark days. Bill S. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 18:59:00 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 00:59:00 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873D7E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873D7E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 4 January 2013 19:11, Rich Alderson wrote: > I have nothing to add regarding the technical discussion. I just want > to point out that there is no such Latin word as "virii". > > Latin o-stems ("masculines ending in -us in the nominative singular and > neuters ending in -um in the nominative and accusative singular", for > the classically trained) form their nominative plural with the ending > -i. *Only* those o-stems in which an -i- precedes the ending, such as > the _gens_ ("family name") _Cornelius_, show a final -ii. (You would > refer to all the members of the Cornelius family as the _Cornelii_.) > > _virus_ is an oddity. It is an o-stem, but it is a neuter, not a > masculine (that is, we would expect "virum" if it followed the usual > formation rule). Furthermore, it is a mass noun, meaning "slime, > poison", rather than a count noun. > > (Cf. English "milk" vs. "goat"--although it is possible in English to > form a plural of a mass noun like "milk", the meaning of "milks" is > "kinds of milk, milk from different sources", and Latin does not permit > this formation.) > > So in Latin, _virus_ only occurs in the singular. > > Now, *in English*, the word "virus" has been borrowed from Latin but is > treated by the grammar of English as an ordinary count noun, and the > plural is "viruses". > > I have no objection the formation of a Latinate plural "viri" or "virii", > I simply want those making such to do so knowingly. ;-) > > > We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic drift. I inferred the poster of that one within about 2sec without looking at the headers. :?) Now, for entertainment value - correct plurals of: * index * forum * penis * octopus * rhinoceros :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 19:16:16 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 20:16:16 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <0cde01cdeae2$43148860$c93d9920$@sudbrink@verizon.net> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > What country/nationality are those names? I'm jealous. They sound > straight out of a Tolkien novel. Wink Seville? Italian, I guess. Sounded plain old "American" over the phone. I never met him face to face. I think Eldon's parents were German. My heritage is German and I vaguely recall having a conversation with him about that. I have no idea about Murf... you'll have to wait for Dave. Bill S. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 4 19:28:43 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: from Liam Proven at "Jan 5, 13 00:59:00 am" Message-ID: <201301050128.r051Shkh28377100@floodgap.com> > * penis Congress -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Okay, who stopped payment on my reality check? ----------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 19:35:49 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:35:49 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <201301050128.r051Shkh28377100@floodgap.com> References: <201301050128.r051Shkh28377100@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 January 2013 01:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> * penis > > Congress *Roar* Excellent. :?D (And yes, I know, had you been so inclined, you could have done just as fine a job of deconstructing "virii" as Richard, Doctor Linguist...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 20:40:08 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 21:40:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jan 2013, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at > Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated > Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked > for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a > a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like > the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's > first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom > drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark > days. Wink Saville - yes. There's a name I remember from the early days. Before Meridian, Wink and his partner Ray Klein were responsible for the PCPI Appli-card, arguably the best engineered co-processor board ever made for Apple 2 systems. In particular, the OEM development support package was terrific. The API was elegantly designed and made device driver development a joy. I spent many hours hacking with mine and still hear from folks using drivers I penned back in the day. I was quite new to the field of microcomputers at the time (~1983), but Wink was invariably patient with my naivety and willing to answer questions. I learned tons about computer organization, communication with hardware devices and assembly language in the process. He was truly instrumental in launching me into my career as a software developer and gets my nomination for being one of the All-Around Good Guys! Steve -- From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 20:47:11 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:47:11 -0800 Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop In-Reply-To: <002d01cdea87$388b24e0$a9a16ea0$@com> References: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> <002d01cdea87$388b24e0$a9a16ea0$@com> Message-ID: <50E7942F.8030802@gmail.com> On 1/4/2013 6:24 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > The link does not work? I have some Grid AC adapters here, but I don't know > if they are what you want without the pic. > > Cindy Croxton Apologies -- my ISP went on the fritz today and brought my server's network connection down. The site should be back up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png Thanks! Josh > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:26 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop > > Hi all -- > > Picked up an interesting old "laptop" -- a GRiDCase 1537E. This is a > Tempest-hardened devicewith (I believe) a 386 processor. Also looks to have > an electroluminescent display. Inside there isn't a single exposed wire or > circuit board, so any debugging I might need to dowill be a fun prospect. > At any rate, I didn't get the AC adapter with this thing and it's got an odd > connector that I'm not familiar with. See here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png > > The connector's a bit over 1cm in diameter with three oddly-spaced pins. > I'dlike to build areplacement assuming I can work out the pinouts (and > find/fabricate a mating connector). Anyone know anything about this machine? > Any ideas where to find such a connector? > > Thanks, > Josh > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:09:10 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:09:10 -0200 Subject: Don Maslin archive... References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <642B3B96FA8F48D39E09ED266BD5C9BB@tababook> > Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two instances > of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there was never a > known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. There are 1 for MSX... http://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/software-and-gaming/msx-virus It is a **very** common virus in MSX computers From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:11:47 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:11:47 -0200 Subject: Don Maslin archive... References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6C1557E4D57147C2887F779573A2436F@tababook> > Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two instances > of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there was never a > known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. Another interesting and very informative link about zapp, the MSX virus: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msxpro.com%2Fzapp.html&act=url From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 5 00:02:27 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:02:27 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips > CM100 player? I lost track of the thread somehow, so I'm not sure *what* somebody here did. I have some CM100 players but no CM153 cards. I think the player is equivalent to the DEC RRD50, so it should also work with a KRQ50 (M7552) for a Qbus system, but I don't have one of those either. Some years back I reverse-engineered two versions of the CM100 firmware (8051). The interface uses DA15 connectors with four EIA-422 differential pairs. If they had made the interface only a *tiny* bit different, they could have supported eight CM100 drives on a single host adapter. The CM110 is the same drive with an additional board that interfaces it to SCSI, but I've never gotten my hands on one. Eric From bear at typewritten.org Sat Jan 5 04:06:32 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 02:06:32 -0800 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images Message-ID: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Howdy folks. I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know of a tool that can read them? They don't appear to be in a WD177x-style format... at least not one intelligible to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. There is at least one C1 emulator out there with support for disk image files, so I have some hope somebody's already done the dirty work for me. If nothing already exists, low-level info on the format would be awesome as then I'd have something to work with, trying to extend Karsten Scheibler's catweasel tools. A few cursory trudges through t3h Googles have borne little fruit so far. ok bear. -- until further notice From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 5 05:22:11 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 00:22:11 +1300 Subject: My Commodore VIC-20 on YouTube Message-ID: My Commodore VIC-20 (and the VIC-20 in general) is discussed in this YouTube video (see link). This will be the last video for a while as I return to work on Monday after the Xmas break (bummer). http://youtu.be/hyHNdAhWVmM Terry (Tez) From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jan 5 06:11:39 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:11:39 +0100 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: A good bunch of documentation. Could it be possible the develop some kind of emulator with basis on these manuals ? Anyway, thanks for the effort. Sergio 2013/1/4 Al Kossow > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/**series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. > > From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 5 10:39:02 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 11:39:02 -0500 Subject: N8VEM multiple ECB board special Message-ID: <004701cdeb63$2b857a70$82906f50$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Things have slowed down a bit on the N8VEM home brew computing project lately. I'd like to clear some boards off the shelf to free up some hobby funds and make room for new projects. To help move things along a bit I am having the first ever multiple ECB board "free shipping special" So far it has been pretty popular. Please see the note on the mini-68000 ECB system though regarding the minimum system. More information here: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/browse_thread/thread/f240fa29ece4cfae Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 5 11:12:09 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 12:12:09 -0500 Subject: N8VEM and S100computers.com S-100 board status Message-ID: <005801cdeb67$e503e910$af0bbb30$@YAHOO.COM> Hi A quick status of N8VEM and S100computers.com S-100 board PCB New S-100 LAVA PCBs are on their way and should be here in a week or less. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm Reordered respin S-100 Console IO PCBs should be here in mid to late Jan 2013 http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Console%20IO%20Board/Console%20 IO%20Board.htm Reordered S-100 regular prototyping boards (just PTH area, no additional circuitry) will be ordered mid-Jan 2013 with estimated delivery early to mid Feb 2013 http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20regular %20prototyping%20board Finally, a couple of new S-100 PCBs are in work and my plan is to order them in Feb 2013 starting with the S-100 68K CPU board. Please note the V3 version of the S-100 68K has the chips in horizontal layout and has a completely different appearance than the prototype boards on the webpage. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm Immediately followed by the S-100 80286 CPU board (Don't be scared of the prototype board images since the final board has all the fixes and is clean) http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/80286%20Board/80286%20CPU%20Boa rd.htm If you are interested in any of the above boards please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Please note this is a hobbyist project and purely for entertainment/educational purposes. By getting these PCBs you are participating in their development at the N8VEM home brew computing project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, there are a couple of S-100 board projects that are languishing "on the back burner" and would like any ideas, comments, thoughts, and/or questions as to what to do with them. The S-100 VDP V2 (V9938 and AY-3-8910 color graphics and sound generator) and the S-100 uPD7220 GDC (accelerated graphics VGA monitor compatible - not register compatible - 640x480 or 800x600 at 16 colors - 4 bit planes). From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 5 15:02:35 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 22:02:35 +0100 Subject: Bootdisk for Vector graphics MZ wanted... Message-ID: <50E894EB.5000407@bluewin.ch> Since I don't have hardsectored floppies, I would hope that someone here could help out ? I am located in Switzerland,costs will be covered . Jos Dreesen From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 15:45:42 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:45:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357422342.66187.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I can't believe these skeevy atheists. Not all are, but his type are. What's this with a Jew on a stick? You think you win people's respect when you say something like that??? You really are disturbed. Statements like this fully demonstrate that. I will repeat not every atheist is like him, so I hate to paint every one w/a broad brush. But I repeat atheists of his stripe are poor excuses for humanity. ?Oh and you just absolutely radiate intelligence, don't you? ?What did this conversation have to do w/you anyway??? ?There's obviously something bothering you. Bothering you terribly. Curious what that might be. ?I don't (generally) demean people's lack of belief. I'm just utterly persuaded that this existence that we share is a product of a vast mind. Not the result of a vast number of random events, which to me is just painfully stupid (whoops). So you're referring to the Creator as a pixie does little to dissuade me of this rational. ?You really owe the list an apology. I've debated w/atheists for well over 5 years, but have yet to hear any sort of rhetoric approaching that. You win the prize hands down. Congratulations. ________________________________ From: Liam Proven To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:33 PM Subject: Re: older Yamaha keyboards On 21 December 2012 20:34, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: Well utter nonsense usually does have that affect. You're point I'll take it is that Satan/Lucifer is a *product* of the Jewish/Christian scriptures. But conflating Christianity w/Satanism leaves something to be desired as to valid logic. That's ok though. The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of the early forms of paganism, stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. >? I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. You ask her). So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She stated to the effect that all those old world gods were manifestations/representations of "the Divine". So why aren't they all just manifestations of ol' Beelzebub I ask? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no point trying to explain it to you - you wouldn't understand; our previous email conversations have demonstrated that. As a happily god-free atheist, I've been called a satanist before, myself. The typical god-botherer is too stupid to understand that not believing in their preferred fictional sky-fairy doesn't mean that I believe in a different fictional sky-fairy. The notion of not believing that there are /any/ fictional sky-fairies at all is too difficult for many of them to comprehend. And since you believe that your mythical magic pixie-cum-dead-Jew-on-a-stick made the universe in a week 6000 years ago, that very very strongly suggests that you are not one of the smarter ones. :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jan 4 12:07:08 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:07:08 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> On 1/4/2013 9:42 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >>> I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would >>> find a >>> legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. >> >> certainly not live. >> >> But, some PC viruses, such as "Stoned" (which was also modified slightly >> and re-released as a wannabe for the NON-EXISTENT "Michelangelo") can be >> dumb enough to try to write themselves to track 0 sector 1 of any >> disk in >> a drive of the PC, disunirregardless of whether that disk is capable of >> transmitting it. > > Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two > instances of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there > was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. > > g With all the targeting of industrial equipment there may be some which target it via trying to poke at serial and other interfaces from the PC that the main infection runs on. Such would probably incorporate exploits for input and communication to attached devices to inject code into the targets with the objective to crash it. I don't know how many attached devices running industrial equipment use the 8080 and 6502, etc., but there are surely some. Perhaps a PC virus targeting such would set of a modern day virus scan. It would hardly be a threat, and such viruss would not be in the disk images for 8080 systems. The sequences that the scanner would be looking for in PC binaries might be however. "fixing" an image Don has would likely render it damaged or useless. Jim From pinball at telus.net Fri Jan 4 16:21:46 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:21:46 -0800 Subject: 3.25 alingment? Message-ID: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided double-density 3.25 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor test gear (Fluke mostly)... Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! Thanks! John :-#)# From pinball at telus.net Fri Jan 4 17:16:15 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:16:15 -0800 Subject: 3.5 alignment? (~~opps, not 3.25!) Message-ID: <50E762BF.1080402@telus.net> Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided double-density 3.5 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor test gear (Fluke mostly)... Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! Thanks! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 5 14:29:11 2013 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:29:11 +0100 Subject: Bootdisk for Vector graphics MZ wanted... Message-ID: <50E88D17.3030504@bluewin.ch> Since I don't have hardsectored floppies, I would hope that someone here could help out ? I am located in Switzerland,costs will be covered . Jos Dreesen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 16:19:03 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 22:19:03 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E8A6D7.5070601@gmail.com> On 05/01/2013 12:11, SPC wrote: > A good bunch of documentation. Could it be possible the develop some kind > of emulator with basis on these manuals ? I think there is enough info in the SH30-0237 to make some kind of start but there isn't a complete instruction set. If any one is interested I'll ry and scan it, but its going to take some time... > Anyway, thanks for the effort. > > Sergio > > 2013/1/4 Al Kossow > >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/**series1 >> >> more that you ever wanted to know. >> >> there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. >> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 5 16:55:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 14:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.25 alingment? In-Reply-To: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> References: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> Message-ID: <20130105142835.F29692@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, John Robertson wrote: > Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided > double-density 3.25 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in > Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. > These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor > test gear (Fluke mostly)... > Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! > Thanks! > John :-#)# 3.25" alignment disks are EXTREMELY rare. MUCH, MUCH, MUCH harder to get than 3.5" When I acquired MicroPro's (Wordstar) 3.25" disks and drives, I was pleasantly surprised to find that it included some 3.25" alignment disks. UNFORTUNATELY, I was then horrified to find out that some (prob'ly all) of those alignment disks had been FORMATted and used for data! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 5 17:24:36 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 15:24:36 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 10:07 AM, jim s wrote: > With all the targeting of industrial equipment there may be some which > target it via trying to poke at serial and other interfaces from the PC > that the main infection runs on. Such would probably incorporate > exploits for input and communication to attached devices to inject code > into the targets with the objective to crash it. I don't know how many > attached devices running industrial equipment use the 8080 and 6502, > etc., but there are surely some. Perhaps a PC virus targeting such > would set of a modern day virus scan. One aspect of a computer virus is that there must be a means to propagate the thing--not something that you'll easily find in old 8-bit industrial equipment. I've never heard of a virus to infect a wire EDM rig for example. Much of the early (pre-web) infection was done through the "Any software title for $3" type of wire-rack sales as well use of BBS downloads. My understanding of Stuxnet is that it was smuggled into the facility via USB pen drive, not by the usual Internet route. --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 5 17:45:54 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 18:45:54 -0500 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20130105234554.GA25907@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 02:06:32AM -0800, r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy folks. > > I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which > I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know > of a tool that can read them? > For the 8" disks OSI used a serial chip to write data to the drive. The drive had an internal data separator. I think the 5.25" used the same format. Its incompatible with any normal disk controller chip. Only raw transition tools could image the disk. If you have an OSI a dump program is here http://osiweb.org/software.html This thread previously discussed it. It seemed to conclude none of the current tools have been programmed to decode that format. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2012-February/312129.html The source code for the dumper may give you info on decoding the format. I may be able to dig up where the 8" format is documented if it helps. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 03:18:35 2013 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 01:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for info on Apple II card- Labnet 488 Message-ID: <1357463915.44404.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi all, I recently acquired Labnet 488 card by Innovations in Computing, circa 1978.? This appears to be an IEEE-488 interface based on the Motorola 68488 chip.? Does anybody have any info on this card, or even better, has anybody seen one of these in use?? It would be cool to locate manuals and/or software, and actually put this sucker to use. Dave From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 03:47:42 2013 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 01:47:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> bear (r.stricklin) wrote: Howdy folks. > >I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know of a tool that can read them? They don't appear to be in a WD177x-style format... at least not one intelligible to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. There is at least one C1 emulator out there with support for disk image files, so I have some hope somebody's already done the dirty work for me. > The winOSI emulator uses a raw disk dump format.? The dump can be produced, as David G. pointed out, using the disk dump utility. For a detailed discussion of the disk format, look at The OSI Gazette, Compute! #20, Jan 1982.? The Gazette in issue #21 contains a discussion of the disk routines.? Both are available at http://www.osiweb.org/journals.html#Computes_Gazette OSI (Meaning Mike Cheiky) used a regular UART to write the data stream to the disk, using discrete TTL logic and one-shots to do the MFM encoding and decoding, and a standard PIA chip to drive the floppy control lines, managing the disk state in software.? This allowed OSI to have a disk interface before the standard chips were available.? (At the time, S100 systems handled disk interfacing with boards full of TTL; Apple handled it by having Woz and a few chips; and CBM hoped to use the GPIB interface to get a disk for free, but it didn't work out that way).? So all in all, you have to hand it to Cheiky for coming up with a cheap solution based on commodity chips--not as clever as Woz's interface, but since OSI had less cloud with drive manufacturers than apple, it was a win to be able to use a standard drive. If you make any images, I would be very interested in getting copies of them for the archive. Best regards, Dave From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 6 09:37:53 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:37:53 -0500 Subject: FW: 68360 - status In-Reply-To: <8487B306-9338-4BAB-B773-ADF32C3F4F21@r2d2.org> References: <002a01cdcc4c$547c5e70$fd751b50$@YAHOO.COM> <00fb01cdcd00$3466d160$9d347420$@YAHOO.COM> <002f01cde542$a7f92e20$f7eb8a60$@YAHOO.COM> <8487B306-9338-4BAB-B773-ADF32C3F4F21@r2d2.org> Message-ID: <010101cdec23$e804c690$b80e53b0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi, If there are any builders who would like to participate in the MC68040 SBC project please let me know. We are working on an intermediate project at the moment based on the MC68360 which is the integrating glue for the MC68040 SBC. The MC68360 is the all-important piece that has to work well before even considering the MC68040 CPU since it is a standalone processor by itself. There are some spare MC68360 P1 PCBs remaining (see the excerpted status update below) and the basic board seems to be working. It is booting from the ROM and partially initializing. More work is underway to further initialize the MC68360 chip subsystems like timers, UARTs, etc. The plan is to integrate a Propeller based IO subsystem (VGA display, PS/2 keyboard, microSD mass storage), DRAM, and Flash memories to the final SBC. This is an ambitious project and will take quite a bit of time so if there are any experienced MC68040/MC68360 builders that would like to contribute your help would be greatly appreciated. Additional information is posted below. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=68040%20SBC http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MC68360%20P1 Similar to other N8VEM home brew computing project boards these are free/open source designs including hardware, software, and other related information. Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if interested. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -----Original Message----- [snip] To: Andrew Lynch Subject: Re: 68360 - status Hi Andrew! I have made quite a bit of progress - if you look at the steps on 9-13 through 9-16 of the User Manual I am at step 11 so I only have a few steps left. [snip] BTW - I have I think 4 extra boards (the other place sent me boards anyways) so if people want to join in the fun, I can forward you the boards. We are also going to have to chat on how we proceed from here - looking at the stuff Alan sent and other errata - the 68040 is not going to be a "glue less" implementation and will require some GALS or a CPLD. [snip] From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 6 11:51:09 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:51:09 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board project Message-ID: <013601cdec36$84226c50$8c6744f0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Recently there has been a bit of renewed interest and an uptick in activity in the N8VEM SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board project. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=SCSI%20to%20IDE%2FSD%20prototypes There are still some prototype boards available in case anyone would like to help bring this project to completion. The prototype boards do work in that they are booting the debug monitor (Zapple) and the IO subsystems are checking out. What we need is the programming to make the Z53C80 SCSI controller work in target mode with the SCSI host mode controller. This board project will be free/open source with software, hardware, and other design information posted to the public. Please contact me if you are interested in helping out at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM I realize there are many ways to accomplish this task and the Z80 based embedded controller board is but one. There may be other valid approaches however none are free/open source projects AFAIK. Please post a link if I am mistaken. Any lessons learned and/or design information from this project could be readily applied to a follow-on project potentially using different technologies. However I think it is important to get this first step working before moving on to another design. I am willing to support a follow-on design once we get this one working properly. I believe with a quick Z80 (8 MHz or greater) there should be sufficient through put for most SCSI-1 applications. It will never be a "speed demon" but the older vintage/classic/hobbyist SCSI-1 machines probably don't need one either. Many of the aging SCSI-1 machines are going to go "offline" forever if the supply of SCSI-1 drives dries up. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ryan at hack.net Sun Jan 6 12:04:18 2013 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:04:18 -0600 Subject: FW: 68360 - status In-Reply-To: <010101cdec23$e804c690$b80e53b0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <002a01cdcc4c$547c5e70$fd751b50$@YAHOO.COM> <00fb01cdcd00$3466d160$9d347420$@YAHOO.COM> <002f01cde542$a7f92e20$f7eb8a60$@YAHOO.COM> <8487B306-9338-4BAB-B773-ADF32C3F4F21@r2d2.org> <010101cdec23$e804c690$b80e53b0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50E9BCA2.2040900@hack.net> I completed an 060 "SBC" two years ago- 32-bit design since the 060 has no dynamic bus sizing. Flash, SRAM, UARTs and ethernet. What do you need help with? -Ryan Brooks n9ybx On 1/6/13 9:37 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > If there are any builders who would like to participate in the MC68040 SBC > project please let me know. > > We are working on an intermediate project at the moment based on the MC68360 > which is the integrating glue for the MC68040 SBC. The MC68360 is the > all-important piece that has to work well before even considering the > MC68040 CPU since it is a standalone processor by itself. > > There are some spare MC68360 P1 PCBs remaining (see the excerpted status > update below) and the basic board seems to be working. It is booting from > the ROM and partially initializing. More work is underway to further > initialize the MC68360 chip subsystems like timers, UARTs, etc. > > The plan is to integrate a Propeller based IO subsystem (VGA display, PS/2 > keyboard, microSD mass storage), DRAM, and Flash memories to the final SBC. > This is an ambitious project and will take quite a bit of time so if there > are any experienced MC68040/MC68360 builders that would like to contribute > your help would be greatly appreciated. Additional information is posted > below. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=68040%20SBC > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MC68360%20P1 > > Similar to other N8VEM home brew computing project boards these are > free/open source designs including hardware, software, and other related > information. > > Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if interested. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > -----Original Message----- > [snip] > > To: Andrew Lynch > Subject: Re: 68360 - status > > Hi Andrew! > > I have made quite a bit of progress - if you look at the steps on 9-13 > through 9-16 of the User Manual I am at step 11 so I only have a few steps > left. > > [snip] > > BTW - I have I think 4 extra boards (the other place sent me boards anyways) > so if people want to join in the fun, I can forward you the boards. We are > also going to have to chat on how we proceed from here - looking at the > stuff Alan sent and other errata - the 68040 is not going to be a "glue > less" implementation and will require some GALS or a CPLD. > > [snip] > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 6 13:09:30 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 19:09:30 -0000 Subject: DEC LAVC SCA Specification Message-ID: <09fd01cdec41$5c826050$158720f0$@ntlworld.com> I have been trying to find if there is a published spec for the DEC LAVC SCA protocol. The reason I want to find it is that I want to see if I can work out why my MicroVAX II is failing the net boot, it times out after a while and falls out of the cluster. I suspect I have a hardware problem, but would like to use a packet sniffer to work out what is going on. Is such a document available? Regards Rob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 6 13:22:15 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:22:15 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> I found my S/1 diskettes and a few docs that were not on your list. I also found a few oddball manuals that you might be interested in. I'll bring them over next week. Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 6 13:57:32 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:57:32 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <50E9D72C.20503@sbcglobal.net> Whoops, this should have gone to Al directly. Sorry about that. Bob On 1/6/2013 11:22 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I found my S/1 diskettes and a few docs that were not on your list. > > I also found a few oddball manuals that you might be interested in. > > I'll bring them over next week. > > Bob > From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 15:32:07 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 16:32:07 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: A quick update on my Apple III. I used the BNK, ADR and Exp/Got info from the Apple III RAM test to narrow down the bad RAM chip. I replaced it with one from an Apple II and it worked. The RAM test completes successfully, but it does do one odd thing shown in this pic... http://i.imgur.com/VP98h.jpg Row 7 gets dashes across it during the second pass and all subsequent passes. The test, however, continues normally. I ran it over 10 passes with no problems. Any ideas what the dashes mean? On the downside, my III still doesn't boot. It does pretty much what it did before. WIth an SOS disk in the drive, it spins for about 3 seconds, then nothing. The demo disk does the same thing. The III+ diagnostic disk that used to boot, doesn't boot anymore and fails with an IO error message. This makes me think again that there may be a floppy drive issue. Is the drive calibration method that was mentioned previously the one that is outlined in the Sun Remarketing Do It Yourself Guide for adjusting Apple III drive speed...that uses a 60 Hz light source? If so, I guess that's my next task to try to revive this machine. Thanks, Win From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 15:58:57 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 16:58:57 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist CP/M home brew computer PCBs available! Message-ID: <001601cdec59$2096f160$61c4d420$@yahoo.com> Hi If funds and/or PayPal is an issue, I am willing to barter items instead. We can make trades for certain computer parts, electronic components, tools, metals, coins, unused gift cards, shipping materials, scrap, etc. Please let's discuss! Many times I have just sent (gratis) PCBs to known N8VEM builders especially those working on tough problems or less popular areas that need attention. Times are tough for many these days. Please don't let a lack of cash or issues with PayPal limit your participation. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:22:26 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 16:22:26 -0700 Subject: KS10 (PDP-10) FPGA Status Message-ID: <50EA0732.3000906@gmail.com> There has been significant progress over the Holidays. All the Basic Instruction Diagnostics now execute successfully. Many of the Advanced Instruction Diagnostics also execute successfully - the Advanced Diagnostics that fail, do so because they require support from the Diagnostic Monitor (SMMON) which is not 'linked in' at this time. I have a design roughed-in for a RH-11 Massbus Controller supporting 8 RP06 Disk Drives. All 8 RP06s disks use a single 8GB Secure Digital (SD) Disk Card for media. There is still a lot to do before the Disk IO will be ready to test. I've also implemented an DZ-11 8-port Terminal Multiplexer, and the KS10-Backplane-to-Unibus IO Bridges. If anyone knows where to find the KS10 DZ-11 Diagnostic DSDZA Source code, please contact me. I have verified that I can use the same 'bits-on-disk' format as SIMH. That will allow the KS10 FPGA to use any of the freely available disk images without modification. You also should be able to use the SIMH Tape IO facilities to create your own disk images. For complete information, please visit: http://www.techtravels.org/KS10FPGA/ Rob Doyle doyle (at) cox (dot) net From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:54:45 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 18:54:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jan 2013, Win Heagy wrote: > A quick update on my Apple III. I used the BNK, ADR and Exp/Got info from > the Apple III RAM test to narrow down the bad RAM chip. I replaced it with > one from an Apple II and it worked. The RAM test completes successfully, > but it does do one odd thing shown in this pic... > http://i.imgur.com/VP98h.jpg > Row 7 gets dashes across it during the second pass and all subsequent > passes. The test, however, continues normally. I ran it over 10 passes > with no problems. Any ideas what the dashes mean? > > On the downside, my III still doesn't boot. It does pretty much what it did > before. WIth an SOS disk in the drive, it spins for about 3 seconds, then > nothing. The demo disk does the same thing. The III+ diagnostic disk that > used to boot, doesn't boot anymore and fails with an IO error message. > This makes me think again that there may be a floppy drive issue. Is the > drive calibration method that was mentioned previously the one that is > outlined in the Sun Remarketing Do It Yourself Guide for adjusting Apple > III drive speed...that uses a 60 Hz light source? If so, I guess that's my > next task to try to revive this machine. Almost all the A3 drives that have come my way were malfunctioning. Best bet is to disassemble them and carefully clean and lube. First, use some canned air to blow out all the dust bunnies. The original grease used on the head assembly rails and the spiral-cut plastic stepper wheel solidifies over the years. I usually use a tiny bit of WD-40 on a swab to remove the old lubricant, then a bit of Tri-Flow to replace it. A speed adjustment may very well be needed, but another problem area is the two trimpots on the top of the drive circuit board. They tend to grow oxide and become intermittant. Mark the position of the pots with a felt-tipped pen, then wiggle them with a screwdriver until the little gob of locking compound breaks. Squirt a small amount of non-residue control cleaner in the side and work them through their rotation a few times. Reset to the marked position. You can lock them in place again with a dab of nail polish, but don't do this until you know that things are working again! Reseat all the chips on the board and check closely for "black pin" syndrome. For some reason, the chips in the disk drives seem more prone to this (more exposure to humidity?) If you see this, pull all of them and take a contact cleaning tool to the legs. Finally, take a swab and carefully clean the head with isopropyl alcohol. I've successfully repaired four or five drives in this manner. Steve -- From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 6 18:23:25 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:23:25 -0700 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EA157D.50208@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote: > not as clever as Woz's interface, but since OSI had less cloud with drive manufacturers than apple, I don't think Apple had any clout whatsoever with drive manufacturers in early 1978. What, some new fruit company in California? If anything, Ohio Scientific had more clout with drive manufacturers, as they had already been buying floppy drives since late 1976 and hard drives since early 1977. (Apple didn't introduce a hard drive until late 1981.) I imagine that by mid-1979 Apple was buying at least an order of magnitude more floppy drives than Ohio Scientific, but it didn't start out that way. > it was a win to be able to use a standard drive. There's nothing that precludes using a clever controller design such as Woz' Disk II controller with a standard drive. Apple using an SA390 rather than an SA400 was a cost reduction, but the basic Woz controller concept can work fine with standard drives. Also, I don't think there's any reason to think that Shugart wouldn't have sold the SA390 to any OEM customer. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 19:12:10 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:12:10 -0800 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <50EA157D.50208@brouhaha.com> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EA157D.50208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50EA20EA.3020502@sydex.com> Before OSI, AES was using a USRT as part of its floppy controller, as did several other manufacturers (I think Zilog did also on the dev systems). You could also occasionally run across Fairchild Macrologic CDC generators in the old gear. The big difference between the USRT-based and genuine floppy controllers was the bit ordering within a byte. The first WD floppy controllers were seriously expensive. Apparently, initial yields on them were pretty low. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 20:21:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 00:21:14 -0200 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? References: Message-ID: <6B5DDB25C6C24C7088D8120086982898@tababook> Maybe cleaning the disk heads with alchool? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Win Heagy" To: Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 7:32 PM Subject: Re: CFFA3000 and Apple III? >A quick update on my Apple III. I used the BNK, ADR and Exp/Got info from > the Apple III RAM test to narrow down the bad RAM chip. I replaced it > with > one from an Apple II and it worked. The RAM test completes successfully, > but it does do one odd thing shown in this pic... > http://i.imgur.com/VP98h.jpg > Row 7 gets dashes across it during the second pass and all subsequent > passes. The test, however, continues normally. I ran it over 10 passes > with no problems. Any ideas what the dashes mean? > > On the downside, my III still doesn't boot. It does pretty much what it > did > before. WIth an SOS disk in the drive, it spins for about 3 seconds, > then > nothing. The demo disk does the same thing. The III+ diagnostic disk > that > used to boot, doesn't boot anymore and fails with an IO error message. > This makes me think again that there may be a floppy drive issue. Is the > drive calibration method that was mentioned previously the one that is > outlined in the Sun Remarketing Do It Yourself Guide for adjusting Apple > III drive speed...that uses a 60 Hz light source? If so, I guess that's > my > next task to try to revive this machine. > > Thanks, > > Win From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 20:23:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 00:23:07 -0200 Subject: KS10 (PDP-10) FPGA Status References: <50EA0732.3000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F1FF499266A434191C536E927D989BD@tababook> We're following! Congratulations, Rob! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Doyle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 9:22 PM Subject: KS10 (PDP-10) FPGA Status > There has been significant progress over the Holidays. All the Basic > Instruction Diagnostics now execute successfully. Many of the Advanced > Instruction Diagnostics also execute successfully - the Advanced > Diagnostics that fail, do so because they require support from the > Diagnostic Monitor (SMMON) which is not 'linked in' at this time. > > I have a design roughed-in for a RH-11 Massbus Controller supporting 8 > RP06 Disk Drives. All 8 RP06s disks use a single 8GB Secure Digital > (SD) Disk Card for media. There is still a lot to do before the Disk IO > will be ready to test. I've also implemented an DZ-11 8-port Terminal > Multiplexer, and the KS10-Backplane-to-Unibus IO Bridges. > > If anyone knows where to find the KS10 DZ-11 Diagnostic DSDZA Source > code, please contact me. > > I have verified that I can use the same 'bits-on-disk' format as SIMH. > That will allow the KS10 FPGA to use any of the freely available disk > images without modification. You also should be able to use the SIMH > Tape IO facilities to create your own disk images. > > For complete information, please visit: > > http://www.techtravels.org/KS10FPGA/ > > Rob Doyle > > doyle (at) cox (dot) net > From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 03:57:03 2013 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 01:57:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) Message-ID: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi, I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not sure on the case name) so there is room for a second hard drive. These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a bit easier than the UNIBUS machines to manage. Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is any interest. Thanks Ian. From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 7 06:08:48 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 13:08:48 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> On 01/07/2013 10:57 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable > sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. > > This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not sure on the case name) > so there is room for a second hard drive. Sounds like the BA123 to me. http://www.netbsd.org/images/machines/vax/microvax2-ba123.jpg > > These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a bit easier than the UNIBUS > machines to manage. > > Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is any interest. It's a real nice PDP-11. I'm certain you'll be swamped with mail. Cheers, Pontus. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:45:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:45:45 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2013, at 4:57, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable > sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. Sounds like a nice machine! The list would probably like to know where you're located so the half of us on the wrong side of the Atlantic can start griping about our rotten luck. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:45:53 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:45:53 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2013, at 4:57, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable > sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. > > This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not sure on the case name) > so there is room for a second hard drive. > > These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a bit easier than the UNIBUS > machines to manage. > > Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is any interest. > > > Thanks > > Ian. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:47:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:47:19 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1770D08F-F56D-4E48-B675-29FE205A83A7@gmail.com> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. - Dave From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 7 08:02:35 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:02:35 -0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1770D08F-F56D-4E48-B675-29FE205A83A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was > empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP > stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) Antonio From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 08:14:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:14:21 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: > David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. > > At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) - Dave From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 7 08:38:00 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:38:00 -0600 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (01/05/2013 at 02:06AM -0800), r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy folks. > > I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know of a tool that can read them? They don't appear to be in a WD177x-style format... at least not one intelligible to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. There is at least one C1 emulator out there with support for disk image files, so I have some hope somebody's already done the dirty work for me. > > If nothing already exists, low-level info on the format would be awesome as then I'd have something to work with, trying to extend Karsten Scheibler's catweasel tools. > > A few cursory trudges through t3h Googles have borne little fruit so far. I think you will find that the C1 used an async UART (MC6850) and a PIA (MC6820) to interface to the floppy drives. The drives were typically MPI (Control Data's disk division) drives that had the data separator built onto the drive. Over the years there were lots of articles about building improved data separators but I think the original async UART connecting to the drive's READ and WRITE data paths remained the same design. Weird / unique and definitely not compatible with any WD17xx format as you mentioned. There's good stuff here, http://www.osiweb.org/ including schematics of the 470 floppy interface card that is probably the origin of all of it, http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/470.pdf Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 08:47:55 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 06:47:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: > >> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >>> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >>> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >>> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. >> >> At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) > > And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to > "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) > ...and in the darkness, one ring to autocorrect them. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 09:28:30 2013 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 07:28:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: PDP 11/83 (UK) Message-ID: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks for the replies - yes its a BA123 - just like the picture :) The system is in the UK. It is a nice machine as it usefully sits next to (or under a large) desk so doesnt take too much space. I'll get some pictures and specs online shortly. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 7 10:05:46 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 08:05:46 -0800 Subject: IBM 3420 tape drives on ebay In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50EAF25A.2080701@sbcglobal.net> I hope someone can save these from being scrapped. Item number: 190780345712 Bob From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 10:22:20 2013 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1357575740.36962.YahooMailNeo@web163002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Elmquist >I think you will find that the C1 used an async UART (MC6850) and a PIA >(MC6820) to interface to the floppy drives.? > Actually, the ACIA was used in synchronous mode, and the MFM encoding was derived from both the clock and data signals. Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 7 10:25:07 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:25:07 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> >Pontus wrote: > >On 01/07/2013 10:57 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > >> I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its >> fitted with a reasonable >> sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has >> ethernet, but need to check. >> >> This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not >> sure on the case name) >> so there is room for a second hard drive. > > Sounds like the BA123 to me. > http://www.netbsd.org/images/machines/vax/microvax2-ba123.jpg It does seem like a BA123 since a BA23 will not hold three drives. In addition, there are 12 quad Qbus slots in the BA123 vs only 8 quad Qbus slots in a BA23. Overall, the BA123 is about twice as large as a BA23, but is much more convenient since it stands on four rollers on the floor. Also, there is room for a total of FIVE 5.25" drives, so there are two empty drive bays left. On the other hand, if the floppy drive is an RX50 dual floppy, then the RQDX3 (M7555) disk controller can support only one more hard drive. I assume that the 5.25" floppy disk is actually a dual RX50 drive rather than a single RX33 drive. A TK50 tape drive is useful for exchanging a few files, but a TK70 can actually be useful for backups although it is still a bit slow compared to a hard drive. Please verify: (a) RX50 dual vs RX33 single floppy drive (b) Tape drive is probably TK50, but might be TK70 (c) How much memory is available? 1M, 2M or 4M >> These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a >> bit easier than the UNIBUS >> machines to manage. >> >> Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is >> any interest. > > It's a real nice PDP-11. I'm certain you'll be swamped with mail. The BA123 probably uses about double the power as a BA23, but as long as the BA123 is turned on only when it is being used, the cost is very manageable. Only a single power circuit is needed, probably 240 volts in the UK. Freight cost will be high if pickup is not local. The BA123 is heavy, probably about 70 lb. Two normal men can handle that quite easily. If only a single person is available, remove the power supply to split the load. Since there are rollers under the box, moving the BA123 is very easy on a flat surface. The BA123 is an excellent box for the serious PDP-11 user since there is room for almost any possible boards that might be needed. There is also a 13th slot for the distribution board for the RQDXn controllers. If really needed, two RQDXn controllers may be used since the 13th slot can hold two dual distribution boards. Note that each hard drive also needs a front panel switch and there are blanks for FIVE front panel switches. Jerome Fine From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:05:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > The BA123 is an excellent box for the serious PDP-11 user since there is > room for almost any possible boards that might be needed. There is also > a 13th slot for the distribution board for the RQDXn controllers. If really > needed, two RQDXn controllers may be used since the 13th slot can hold > two dual distribution boards. Note that each hard drive also needs a > front panel switch and there are blanks for FIVE front panel switches. Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They always seem to turn up in Europe, however... - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 11:07:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:07:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130107090728.A72375@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to > "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) It makes value judgements? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:17:55 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:17:55 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They > always seem to turn up in Europe, however... I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... one at work in 1987 (a MicroVAX II on which we ran Ultrix) and one in my basement (2 hour drive in Ohio to pick it up). If I ever got a KDJ11 card, I'd probably convert my BA123 to a PDP-11. I find them much nicer to reconfigure than the BA23, and if you want multiple drives, they are great for that - I've also worked on stacked BA23s - those are a pain if you try to change anything out. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 11:24:28 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 11:24:28 -0600 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009a01cdecfb$d9640690$8c2c13b0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 11:06 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > The BA123 is an excellent box for the serious PDP-11 user since there > is room for almost any possible boards that might be needed. There is > also a 13th slot for the distribution board for the RQDXn controllers. > If really needed, two RQDXn controllers may be used since the 13th > slot can hold two dual distribution boards. Note that each hard drive > also needs a front panel switch and there are blanks for FIVE front panel switches. Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They always seem to turn up in Europe, however... - Dave Sigh. Makes me cringe to think how many of these I scrapped abt 15 years ago... ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 7 11:55:10 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 10:55:10 -0700 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EB0BFE.1050100@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-07 10:05, David Riley wrote: > Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They > always seem to turn up in Europe, however... Funny, I had six of them at one time (here, in the US). Had to stack them, which was a nice wall then ;-) From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 12:05:13 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:05:13 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: Great, thanks. I'll give the cleaning process a try before a speed adjustment. Thanks...Win ---- Almost all the A3 drives that have come my way were malfunctioning. Best bet is to disassemble them and carefully clean and lube. First, use some canned air to blow out all the dust bunnies. The original grease used on the head assembly rails and the spiral-cut plastic stepper wheel solidifies over the years. I usually use a tiny bit of WD-40 on a swab to remove the old lubricant, then a bit of Tri-Flow to replace it. A speed adjustment may very well be needed, but another problem area is the two trimpots on the top of the drive circuit board. They tend to grow oxide and become intermittant. Mark the position of the pots with a felt-tipped pen, then wiggle them with a screwdriver until the little gob of locking compound breaks. Squirt a small amount of non-residue control cleaner in the side and work them through their rotation a few times. Reset to the marked position. You can lock them in place again with a dab of nail polish, but don't do this until you know that things are working again! Reseat all the chips on the board and check closely for "black pin" syndrome. For some reason, the chips in the disk drives seem more prone to this (more exposure to humidity?) If you see this, pull all of them and take a contact cleaning tool to the legs. Finally, take a swab and carefully clean the head with isopropyl alcohol. I've successfully repaired four or five drives in this manner. Steve From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 7 13:03:40 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:03:40 +0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: geneb Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 6:48 AM > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: >> On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: >>> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >>>> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >>>> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >>>> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. >>> At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) >> And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to >> "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) > ...and in the darkness, one ring to autocorrect them. > :) No, no, no. Ring 1 is where the kernel operating system code resides. Autocorrect would be in an application ring. ;-> Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 7 13:14:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:14:19 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> On 01/07/2013 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They >> always seem to turn up in Europe, however... > > I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... one at work in 1987 (a > MicroVAX II on which we ran Ultrix) and one in my basement (2 hour > drive in Ohio to pick it up). You've been here, so that means you've seen four! ;) > If I ever got a KDJ11 card, I'd > probably convert my BA123 to a PDP-11. I find them much nicer to > reconfigure than the BA23, and if you want multiple drives, they are > great for that - I've also worked on stacked BA23s - those are a pain > if you try to change anything out. I can hook you up with a KDJ11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 7 13:14:43 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:14:43 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EB0BFE.1050100@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> <50EB0BFE.1050100@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50EB1EA3.6000003@neurotica.com> On 01/07/2013 12:55 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-07 10:05, David Riley wrote: > >> Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They >> always seem to turn up in Europe, however... > > Funny, I had six of them at one time (here, in the US). Had to stack > them, which was a nice wall then ;-) Just try to find six NOW... -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:29:26 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:29:26 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/07/2013 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... > > You've been here, so that means you've seen four! ;) I'll take your word for it. I saw a lot of things at your place - most larger than a BA123. ;-) > I can hook you up with a KDJ11. That's cool. No hurry. Many, many projects to do before Spring thaw (including moving half a dozen racks and an 029 card punch). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 7 13:36:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:36:06 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50EB23A6.70703@neurotica.com> On 01/07/2013 02:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... >> >> You've been here, so that means you've seen four! ;) > > I'll take your word for it. I saw a lot of things at your place - > most larger than a BA123. ;-) Well yeah. This place is sorta information overload. This happens to ME all the time, and I live here! >> I can hook you up with a KDJ11. > > That's cool. No hurry. Many, many projects to do before Spring thaw > (including moving half a dozen racks and an 029 card punch). Keep me posted, work knows I may need to duck out at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 13:38:40 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 11:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: geneb > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 6:48 AM > >> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > >>> On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: > >>>> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > >>>>> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >>>>> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >>>>> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. > >>>> At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) > >>> And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to >>> "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) > >> ...and in the darkness, one ring to autocorrect them. > >> :) > > No, no, no. Ring 1 is where the kernel operating system code resides. > Autocorrect would be in an application ring. > I...I...wow. It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. Here, sign my Geek Card. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:40:55 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 19:40:55 +0000 Subject: FS: PDP 11/83 (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB24C7.1030902@gmail.com> On 07/01/2013 15:28, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Thanks for the replies - yes its a BA123 - just like the picture :) > > The system is in the UK. It is a nice machine as it usefully sits next to (or under a large) > desk so doesnt take too much space. I'll get some pictures and specs online shortly. Where in the UK? From technobug at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 14:02:00 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:02:00 -0700 Subject: IBM Issued PC DOS Version 5.0 for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My recycler got in a complete, boxed (mostly) version 5.0 of DOS and was about to "recycle" it. Available for shipping from 85704. ->CRC From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 7 14:06:43 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:06:43 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:25:07 -0500 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > The BA123 probably uses about double the power as a BA23 Only if it is fully populated with cards. Power consumtion depends on the count of cards actually instaled and on the type of card. Actual power consumtion does not depend on the max. power rating of the PSU. BTW: A modernish PeeCee with a 125 W TDP CPU and gamer GFX under load will draw more power then a small to average QBus PDP11 or MicroVAX. Eeasyly. IIRC my PDP-11/73 in a BA23 with two ESDI HDDs and a TK50 draws around 200 W. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 14:11:36 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Issued PC DOS Version 5.0 for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, CRC wrote: > My recycler got in a complete, boxed (mostly) version 5.0 of DOS and was about to "recycle" it. Available for shipping from 85704. > What would shipping to 98373 be? Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 14:16:54 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:16:54 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: From: "geneb" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:38 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) [... snip ...] > I...I...wow. > > It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. > > Here, sign my Geek Card. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! - Henk, PA8PDP www. pdp-11.nl/viperpit From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:56:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:56:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available In-Reply-To: <1706800870-1357339175-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-958779899-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <1706800870-1357339175-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-958779899-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1357592180.75467.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> if there isn't interest in a total buy out, I live close enough to pick the stuff up, if there's the possibility of a group buy. If curt can give us a fairly accurate breakdown, we can express interest in what we want. Individuals can e-mail me directly to express their interest. I pack extremely well and won't charge anything but raw shipping. I could use a working system unit. Most of my M* stuff is sold off or given away. It's the most absolutely gorgeously design cpu out there, subject to individual tastes of course, but really does look like something out of Space 1999. Like I said if there isn't interest in a total buy out, this might be your chance to obtain one. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:58:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:58:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ok so if I wanted to make a sturdy cable, db-9 at one end, D-23 at the other, is there a grommet out there that I can purchase to make up the difference in the bores? Or do I have to make something on one of my many not-set-up lathes. I think I lost one last week in fact. A small one, but who loses a lathe?? From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 15:09:18 2013 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:09:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? Message-ID: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 7 15:21:44 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:21:44 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/83 (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0b0a01cded1d$00c2e6e0$0248b4a0$@ntlworld.com> Sadly I don't really have room for another BA123 enclosure, but its boards and disks are interesting! NB I finally got the 11/73 you gave me a while back booting over Christmas. I had to find a hard disk for it first. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley > Sent: 07 January 2013 15:29 > To: cctalk > Subject: FS: PDP 11/83 (UK) > > Thanks for the replies - yes its a BA123 - just like the picture :) > > The system is in the UK. It is a nice machine as it usefully sits next to (or > under a large) desk so doesnt take too much space. I'll get some pictures > and specs online shortly. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:23:39 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB3CDB.50603@gmail.com> On 1/7/2013 1:09 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Looks like thinkgeek made replicas > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs Neat but, $500 ? Besides it bugs me they keep calling it a life size replica of HAL9000. Sort like calling the operators panel of a PDP-10 a life sized replica of a PDP-10. Maybe it is even more like calling a intercom on the operators desk a life size replica of a PDP-10. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 15:25:23 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:25:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT!] Re: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) > > [... snip ...] > >> I...I...wow. >> >> It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. >> >> Here, sign my Geek Card. :) >> >> g. >> > > Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... > Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! > That's on the truck. This is on the daily driver: http://www.geneb.org/images/6502.jpg :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 15:43:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:43:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok so if I wanted to make a sturdy cable, db-9 at one end, D-23 at the > other, is there a grommet out there that I can purchase to make up the > difference in the bores? Or do I have to make something on one of my > many not-set-up lathes. hoods for DE-9 are readily available. For DB-9, just use a DB-25 hood. Hoods for D-23 have existed, but are hard to come by. "Grommet"??!? Yeah, you could make a SPACER to fill the gap for using a DB hood on a D-23 > I think I lost one last week in fact. A small > one, but who loses a lathe?? Only in a mainframe. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 15:59:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:59:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm at a loss to understand how you use a db-9 connector w/a db-25 hood. There's going to be a lot of ventilation it seems. I have the D23 hood. I was going to buy a nice metal db-9 hood/connector at Radio Shlock. I guess I'm going to have to make a GROMMET. Apparently that sort of thing doesn't exist out there. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 7 15:59:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:59:42 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo at web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Christian Liendo writes: > Looks like thinkgeek made replicas > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs It looks exceedingly boring and expensive. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:12:26 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I'm at a loss to understand how you use a db-9 connector w/a db-25 hood. > There's going to be a lot of ventilation it seems. NO. A DE-9 is a lot smaller than a DB-25 A DB-9 is the same size as a DB-25, usually with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 20 connected. > I have the D23 hood. I was going to buy a nice metal db-9 hood/connector > at Radio Shlock. I guess I'm going to have to make a GROMMET. Apparently > that sort of thing doesn't exist out there. You said that you wanted to make a CABLE. You have a D23 hood. and connector? You can get a DE-9 connector and hood. WHERE do you think that you can get a DB-9 connector and hood that is not just a MIS-LABELED DE-9? WHERE did you want to p[ut a GROMMET?? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Jan 7 16:19:37 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:19:37 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. On 7 January 2013 21:59, Richard wrote: > > In article <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo at web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, > Christian Liendo writes: > >> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >> >> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs > > It looks exceedingly boring and expensive. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:24:29 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:24:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ok let me start over :) I have a Amiga 1000 external floppy drive cable - that is the d23 plus the cable ONLY. The cable is cut off at the other end. I want to make this into an Amiga 600 video cable. I have a D23 connector to go along w/the D23 hood from the floppy drive. I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger bore, so I need to take up that space. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:33:24 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:33:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. > I suspect there's $40 in parts, the rest is licensing fees to whatever law office happens to own the rights to 2001 these days. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:36:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:36:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I want to make this into an Amiga 600 video cable. I have a D23 > connector to go along w/the D23 hood from the floppy drive. > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The cable > connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. Therefore I > need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the hole of a db9 > hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger bore, so I need to > take up that space. There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might qualify...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 16:47:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:47:07 -0800 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in > the hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a > larger bore, so I need to take up that space. What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:52:14 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: geneb There's no such thing as a "DB9".? (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might qualify...) C: Well it's news to me. That's what I and it seemed everyone else have been calling them. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:58:07 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:58:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: geneb > > > There's no such thing as a "DB9".? (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might qualify...) > > C:\DERP> Well it's news to me. That's what I and it seemed everyone else have been calling them. > Not on this list they haven't. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 16:59:16 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:59:16 -0800 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB5344.5050502@sydex.com> On 01/07/2013 02:36 PM, geneb wrote: > There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might > qualify...) We've been here so many times that it scarcely is worth bothering. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:59:38 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body.? It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful).? Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional.? I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 17:00:53 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:00:53 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 4:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: db-9 hoods On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the > hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger > bore, so I need to take up that space. What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck Radio Shack used to sell shrink wrap tubing in small packages for a couple of dollars. You can still get it online from various vendors. All you need is a heat gun or hair dryer, and you can build it up in layers to make it the thickness you need. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 17:01:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:01:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok let me start over :) I have a Amiga 1000 external floppy drive cable > - that is the d23 plus the cable ONLY. The cable is cut off at the other > end. > I want to make this into an Amiga 600 video cable. I have a D23 > connector to go along w/the D23 hood from the floppy drive. > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The cable > connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. Therefore I > need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the hole of a db9 > hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger bore, so I need to > take up that space. Ah, now that is closer, and explains the reason for a GROMMET! What I would do, and have done before, for matching cable differences (not impedance matching :-)), is to drill out the opening of the smaller hood to take the larger cable, although using a smaller cable and an O-ring or grommet would work. To use as a video cable, you would need a DE-9, NOT a DB-9. DB-9 is hardly EVER used for anything except serial communications. Although MANY people and even ignorant businesses mislabel their DE-9's as DB-9 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 17:03:33 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:03:33 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 4:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: db-9 hoods On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the > hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger > bore, so I need to take up that space. What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck http://www.oldsoftware.com/softimg6/23pin9.jpg Is this what you are looking for? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 17:08:48 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:08:48 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> -Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 4:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: db-9 hoods On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the > hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger > bore, so I need to take up that space. This guy is selling them brand new for $12! http://www.bestpricecables.com/6ft-grey-amiga-monitor-cable-with-db-23-femal e-to-db-9-male-connectors.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 7 17:10:17 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:10:17 -0000 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB5344.5050502@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > On 01/07/2013 02:36 PM, geneb wrote: > >> There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might >> qualify...) > > We've been here so many times that it scarcely is worth bothering. > We solved that very issue at work with a wiki. (Maybe there's one already?) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Jan 7 17:10:44 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:10:44 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You'll need one of these... http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/8mm-f8.htm They are kind of expensive. On 7 January 2013 22:33, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > >> I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. >> > > I suspect there's $40 in parts, the rest is licensing fees to whatever law > office happens to own the rights to 2001 these days. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 7 17:12:09 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:12:09 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94AE5B96-F2B0-4C5D-8D8A-F6FE40E91427@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Jan 7, at 2:19 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> In article >> <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo at web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, >> Christian Liendo writes: >>> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >>> >>> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >>> > I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. Patience. The 10$ chinese knock-off will be available shortly. From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:12:29 2013 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 18:12:29 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with Candace Bergan? On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: > Looks like thinkgeek made replicas > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs > -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 7 17:13:08 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 18:13:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301072313.SAA03888@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm at a loss to understand how you use a db-9 connector w/a db-25 hood. The$ I've yet to see D-shell connector hoods that care about pin count; they all just care about size, so a DB hood is a DB hood, regardless of whether it's a DB-25, a 13W3, or even something really esoteric like a DB-9. (I've never seen a DB-9, though I've seen a recent trend to try to apply the term to a DB-25 with only 9 pins installed, for some reason. Perhaps oddly, I've never seen the other logical consequences of that point of view, such as calling a DB-25 with only pins 2/3/7 installed a "DB-3"....) What you most likely want is a DE hood. Almost all of what is called "DB-9" is actually DE-9, misnamed by someone who doesn't understand the terminology. (Unfortunately, this includes far too many vendors. Sturgeon's Law applies.) As for grommets? I don't know of any designed for the purpose. But there is a very wide variety of grommets out there designed for sheet-metal use; it would not surprise me if one of them would serve your purpose. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 7 17:16:43 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:16:43 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB575B.3060404@vaxen.net> On 1/7/13 4:59 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. > > (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. > > --Chuck > > C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. Your local auto parts store is more likely to have what you need. Doc From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 7 17:21:17 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:21:17 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB586D.9050200@vaxen.net> On 1/7/13 4:59 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. > > (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. > > --Chuck > > C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. ...and hit send before i finished typing.... Chuck's suggestion of a wire tie for strain relief is a good one, whether you use a grommet or tubing. Even a tight reducer will allow the cable to slip over time, and the strain relief provision in the D-23 hood will probably not grasp a smaller cable. Doc From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:30:58 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:30:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> Message-ID: <1357601458.32048.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Radio Shack used to sell shrink wrap tubing in small packages for a couple of dollars.? You can still get it online from various vendors. All you need is a heat gun or hair dryer, and you can build it up in layers to make it the thickness you need. C: I have plenty of shrinky dink tubing on hand. And a heat gun. It just looks amateurish. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:33:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:33:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357601626.2114.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What I would do, and have done before, for matching cable differences (not impedance matching :-)), is to drill out the opening of the smaller hood to take the larger cable, although using a smaller cable and an O-ring or grommet would work. C: Drilling out a metal hood in anything but a lathe seems to be a recipe for an explosion of sorts. Even in a lathe - that likely die cast crap. I dunno. I had thought of it but my original objection was it would look all ugly. ?I would have thought there would be something out there I could purchase. Guess not. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:35:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:35:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> Message-ID: <1357601727.88121.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Is this what you are looking for? C: that looks like a serial cable to me bubbalah. But thanks for looking. It resembles what I need but at the far end is a D23 connector not a 25 pin thingee. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:38:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:38:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> Message-ID: <1357601890.32203.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This guy is selling them brand new for $12! http://www.bestpricecables.com/6ft-grey-amiga-monitor-cable-with-db-23-femal e-to-db-9-male-connectors.html C: Thanks but I already bought the connector. I may as well make good use of it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 17:39:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:39:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> Message-ID: <20130107153754.H74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > This guy is selling them brand new for $12! > > http://www.bestpricecables.com/6ft-grey-amiga-monitor-cable-with-db-23-femal > e-to-db-9-male-connectors.html It's a little more costly than a grommet, BUT, they have a DB-9, instead of a DE-9! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 7 17:45:12 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:45:12 -0700 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> Message-ID: In article <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > http://www.oldsoftware.com/softimg6/23pin9.jpg > > Is this what you are looking for? This guy is local to me, if anyone needs assistance. He mostly deals in old C=64 stuff. Cindy, I think I referred him to you since he scours up old virgin copies of MS-DOS with the certificate of authenticity for medical device manufacturers. Hopefully he helped you liquidate some inventory :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 7 17:48:11 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:48:11 -0700 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , writes: > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > On 01/07/2013 02:36 PM, geneb wrote: > > > >> There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might > >> qualify...) > > > > We've been here so many times that it scarcely is worth bothering. > > > > We solved that very issue at work with a wiki. (Maybe there's one > already?) On this particular issue, wikipedia already covers it pretty well. I'd like to see this community make a vintage computing wiki, like I have done for terminals, but instead everyone seems insistent on building a monument of their own instead of collaborating. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:52:02 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 18:52:02 -0500 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Not on this list they haven't. And we wonder why we do not get invited to parties. -- Will From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 18:10:11 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:10:11 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You also have to replace the 'H' with an 'S' as well. On 7 January 2013 18:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with > Candace Bergan? > > On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: >> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >> >> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >> > > > -- > Joseph Giliberti > InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum > Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 18:12:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 16:12:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping Message-ID: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I probably have 8 left. I dropped one. Man that shadow mask was all warped to heck. Weird forces are in play when there's an implosion. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 18:12:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:12:40 -0800 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> Message-ID: <50EB6478.7080105@sydex.com> On 01/07/2013 03:00 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Radio Shack used to sell shrink wrap tubing in small packages for a couple > of dollars. You can still get it online from various vendors. All you need > is a heat gun or hair dryer, and you can build it up in layers to make it > the thickness you need. I'd be moderately surprised if you couldn't go to Home Depot or your local auto parts store nowadays and find the stuff. RS used to sell heat-shrink tape that you could build up and then fuse with a suitable heat source, such as a lighted match. I don't know if it's still offered. Many backshells (the term of art) also come with internal cable clamps. I long ago gave up on the 3-piece + screws and bits of metal shells. I prefer using the one-piece snap-on type of hood with nice extended molded-head jackscrews. On occasion, I've even filled them with epoxy resin for a more secure attachment. A bit of black rubber hose can serve as a very handsome grommet in a pinch. But for all I can tell, CT may be after a flexible strain relief instead. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 18:17:13 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 16:17:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB586D.9050200@vaxen.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB586D.9050200@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <1357604233.87337.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body.? It works extremely well. > > (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful).? Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. > > --Chuck ? Chuck's suggestion of a wire tie for strain relief is a good one, whether you use a grommet or tubing.? Even a tight reducer will allow the cable to slip over time, and the strain relief provision in the D-23 hood will probably not grasp a smaller cable. ??? Doc C: Unless you precisely machined a grommet. But even then you could just put a tie wrap around the cable, or w/a piece of tubing, and do your best to make it butt up against the grommet. Even a piece of acetal/delrin would be acceptable, though not what I had in mind. I will try the auto parts store. Sounds as good a suggestion as any. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 19:02:20 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:02:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357601626.2114.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357601626.2114.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107165320.G74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Drilling out a metal hood in anything but a lathe seems to be a > recipe for an explosion of sorts. Even in a lathe - that likely die cast > crap. I dunno. I had thought of it but my original objection was it > would look all ugly. You're right to be cautious. I used a cheap drill press, with the part clamped down solidly. The well-made metal ones, and some of the plastic ones went very nicely. Some of the crappier metal ones not so well. >?I would have thought there would be something out there I could > purchase. Guess not. Used to be. But, then you could choose between dozens of different hoods for all of the common sizes. And there existed DB hoods for cables with fewer wires. There were probably even grommets. 'course so long as it's solid, with good strain relief, I'm not very particular about the appearance of my DB-3s and DB-9s. For some connectors, such as Mini-DIN, I'm not adverse to using whatever cable is appropriate for each connector, and ssplicing them in the middle. With a little practice, shrink tubing doesn't have to look too bad. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 19:09:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:09:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I probably have 8 left. I dropped one. Man that shadow mask was all > warped to heck. Weird forces are in play when there's an implosion. They are, indeed! Most people would have said that they "had done full testing of its impact resistance and impact failure modes". From pinball at telus.net Sat Jan 5 18:12:54 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 16:12:54 -0800 Subject: 3.25 alingment? In-Reply-To: <20130105142835.F29692@shell.lmi.net> References: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> <20130105142835.F29692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E8C186.6070300@telus.net> Sorry, 3.25 was an oops posting - see other thread "3.5 alignment? (~~opps, not 3.25!)" Thanks! John :-#)# Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, John Robertson wrote: > >> Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided >> double-density 3.25 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in >> Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. >> These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor >> test gear (Fluke mostly)... >> Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! >> Thanks! >> John :-#)# >> > > 3.25" alignment disks are EXTREMELY rare. > MUCH, MUCH, MUCH harder to get than 3.5" > > When I acquired MicroPro's (Wordstar) 3.25" disks and drives, > I was pleasantly surprised to find that it included some > 3.25" alignment disks. UNFORTUNATELY, I was then horrified > to find out that some (prob'ly all) of those alignment disks > had been FORMATted and used for data! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 18:53:32 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 19:53:32 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Al Kossow > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:43:34 -0800 > Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. Thanks Al. The RICM has lots of them: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 -- Michael Thompson From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 7 18:52:35 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:52:35 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> Mine won't be going into a $500 Hal 9000 any time soon. There are plenty of fisheye adapters that should turn up a cheaper alternative. Probably cheaper than their "custom" version. I suspect I could turn out a model like this a lot cheaper. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. Jim On 1/7/2013 3:10 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > You'll need one of these... > http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/8mm-f8.htm > > They are kind of expensive. From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 19:34:38 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:34:38 -0600 Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I'm interested in one but didn't see the rest of the post. How do I go about getting it? On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I probably have 8 left. I dropped one. Man that shadow mask was all > > warped to heck. Weird forces are in play when there's an implosion. > > They are, indeed! > > Most people would have said that they "had done full testing > of its impact resistance and impact failure modes". > > > -- Marty From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 21:04:59 2013 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:04:59 -0600 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe Message-ID: Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... I had both at work, and want one again. Thanks, Randy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 7 22:50:39 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 20:50:39 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> >> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: > > .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play > with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. And a zero-gravity environment to access it. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 7 22:58:48 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 20:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: RIP Mark Crispin Message-ID: Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark Crispin was very ill and in hospice. ===begin quote=== Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 of 3 Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses fishtoprecords Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has died at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 at Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born on July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. Arrangements are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. ===end quote=== -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 7 23:16:27 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:16:27 -0800 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark >Crispin was very ill and in hospice. > >===begin quote=== >Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 of 3 >Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses >fishtoprecords > >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 > >Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has >died at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December >28, 2012 at Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo >Washington. He was born on July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and >was 56 years of age. Arrangements are pending through Cook Family >Funeral Home. >===end quote=== As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda TOPS-20 distribution was, and if it's been archived? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From technobug at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 23:22:48 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:22:48 -0700 Subject: IBM Issued PC DOS Version 5.0 for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <678C66E3-3B64-4537-BD25-811425FFB1FA@comcast.net> > My recycler got in a complete, boxed (mostly) version 5.0 of DOS and was about to "recycle" it. Available for shipping from 85704. > 'Tis taken ->CRC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 7 23:26:49 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:26:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark Crispin >> was very ill and in hospice. >> >> ===begin quote=== >> Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 of >> 3 >> Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses >> fishtoprecords >> >> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 >> >> Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has died at >> 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 at >> Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born on >> July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. Arrangements >> are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. >> ===end quote=== > > As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he was > sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda TOPS-20 > distribution was, and if it's been archived? In November someone posted to alt.sys.pdp10 or sparetimegizmos that he went into hospice care. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From g-wright at att.net Tue Jan 8 00:26:12 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. Message-ID: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The system has M8189 cpu M8067 memory 256k M8029 RX02 M8061 RL02 M8639 HD controller Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad controller card. The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i get an error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I get 'cant read directory ' Any words of wisdom out there Thanks, Jerry From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 8 00:40:34 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:40:34 -0800 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >The system has > >M8189 cpu >M8067 memory 256k >M8029 RX02 >M8061 RL02 >M8639 HD controller > >Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >controller card. > >The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >from it. i get >an > >error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >RX02 , I get > >'cant read directory ' > >Any words of wisdom out there > >Thanks, Jerry What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the same? I assume you have a drive # plug in the front of the RL02 drive? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue Jan 8 00:43:21 2013 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:43:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on Apple II card- Labnet 488 References: <1357463915.44404.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think I have the same card. Says labnet-488 on the card. I picked up the Apple II IEEE-488 Interface User's Guide from ebay also. About 80 pages. I have not yet tried to use the card. I'll need to see if I can scan this manual into a pdf. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 02:18 AM Subject: Looking for info on Apple II card- Labnet 488 Hi all, I recently acquired Labnet 488 card by Innovations in Computing, circa 1978. This appears to be an IEEE-488 interface based on the Motorola 68488 chip. Does anybody have any info on this card, or even better, has anybody seen one of these in use? It would be cool to locate manuals and/or software, and actually put this sucker to use. Dave From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 00:55:42 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 22:55:42 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator Message-ID: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> Subject line says it all -- and I know this is a long shot. Anyone have one going spare? Finally got my 5120 working (after scrounging a keyboard, display, and an ROS board from a parts machine*) and of course I had no idea that a terminator was required in order for the internal drives to function. Iimagine these are hard to find, but I haveto ask... Thanks as always, Josh (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my 5120 had not one but two bad ROS boards, but I've borrowed it from my 5110 for the time being. I'm assuming that it's pretty much impossible to repair these things...) From spedraja at ono.com Tue Jan 8 01:08:55 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 08:08:55 +0100 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2013/1/8 David Griffith > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark Crispin >>> was very ill and in hospice. >>> >>> ===begin quote=== >>> Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 >>> of 3 >>> Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses >>> fishtoprecords >>> >>> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 >>> >>> Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has died >>> at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 at >>> Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born on >>> July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. Arrangements >>> are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. >>> ===end quote=== >>> >> >> As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he >> was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda TOPS-20 >> distribution was, and if it's been archived? >> > > In November someone posted to alt.sys.pdp10 or sparetimegizmos that he > went into hospice care. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > Very, very bad news. At 56, in adittion... I will miss his endless discussions in alt.sys.pdp10 Sergio Pedraja. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Jan 8 01:26:53 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 07:26:53 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Build a very large tower, several thousand feet. Put brain room in box in tower, and drop. A breaking system would be a good idea... On 8 January 2013 04:50, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: >> >> >> .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play with >> and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. > > > And a zero-gravity environment to access it. > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:40:09 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:40:09 -0200 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > BTW: A modernish PeeCee with a 125 W TDP CPU and gamer GFX under load > will draw more power then a small to average QBus PDP11 or MicroVAX. > Eeasyly. IIRC my PDP-11/73 in a BA23 with two ESDI HDDs and a TK50 > draws around 200 W. But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:45:27 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:45:27 -0200 Subject: db-9 hoods References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB575B.3060404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: >> C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. I'm >> not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through >> Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. ^^^^^ I didn't know there were specialized hardware shops for homossexuals in USA... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:47:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:47:07 -0200 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can I order them with IBM instead of HAL? :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Gauger-Cosgrove" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? > You also have to replace the 'H' with an 'S' as well. > > On 7 January 2013 18:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: >> Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with >> Candace Bergan? >> >> On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: >>> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >>> >>> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >>> >> >> >> -- >> Joseph Giliberti >> InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum >> Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 8 02:05:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 03:05:51 -0500 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB575B.3060404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50EBD35F.6050203@neurotica.com> On 01/08/2013 02:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. >>> I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll >>> through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. > ^^^^^ > I didn't know there were specialized hardware shops for homossexuals > in USA... ROFLMAO!! This is one of the funniest exchanges I've seen on this list in years! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From paco.linux at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 03:48:06 2013 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 10:48:06 +0100 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Very sad news. We will miss you. RIP Mark Paco On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM, SPC wrote: > 2013/1/8 David Griffith > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: > >> > >>> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark > Crispin > >>> was very ill and in hospice. > >>> > >>> ===begin quote=== > >>> Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 > >>> of 3 > >>> Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses > >>> fishtoprecords > >>> > >>> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 > >>> > >>> Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has > died > >>> at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 > at > >>> Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born > on > >>> July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. > Arrangements > >>> are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. > >>> ===end quote=== > >>> > >> > >> As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he > >> was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda > TOPS-20 > >> distribution was, and if it's been archived? > >> > > > > In November someone posted to alt.sys.pdp10 or sparetimegizmos that he > > went into hospice care. > > > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > Very, very bad news. At 56, in adittion... > > I will miss his endless discussions in alt.sys.pdp10 > > Sergio Pedraja. > -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jan 8 05:38:07 2013 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 11:38:07 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130108113807.GA27490@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 03:24:36PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One aspect of a computer virus is that there must be a means to > propagate the thing--not something that you'll easily find in old 8-bit > industrial equipment. Every Ye Olde piece of computerised industrial equipment I've seen has some way of getting data into it, most have some way of getting data out and many have some way of updating the software on them. Often it's just a serial port that speaks some proprietary protocol, but having a floppy (carefully protected from airborne oil and dust!) is pretty common. -- David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig The Law of Daves: in any gathering of technical people, the number of Daves will be greater than the number of women. From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 8 06:46:08 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 06:46:08 -0600 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <1357575740.36962.YahooMailNeo@web163002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> <1357575740.36962.YahooMailNeo@web163002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130108124608.GG2141@n0jcf.net> On Monday (01/07/2013 at 08:22AM -0800), Dave wrote: > > > From: Chris Elmquist > >I think you will find that the C1 used an async UART (MC6850) and a PIA > >(MC6820) to interface to the floppy drives.? > > > > Actually, the ACIA was used in synchronous mode, and the MFM encoding was derived from both the clock and data signals. The ACIA was run in divide-by-1, external clock mode, with the clock being derived from the data using the clock extractor on the floppy drive (originally) and other circuits over time. But it was still async, with a start bit and 1 or 2 stop bits per byte. The 6850 does not have a synchronous mode like a USART such as AMI S2350, which has a true synchronous mode (can sync to a start byte per frame rather than a start bit per byte) and was also popular in floppy controllers such as the Heathkit H-17 and Percom LFD-400 for SS-50 bus both 10-hole hard-sector, and all from about the same time. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 8 09:22:01 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:22:01 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> The system has >> >> M8189 cpu >> M8067 memory 256k >> M8029 RX02 >> M8061 RL02 >> M8639 HD controller >> >> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its >> a bad >> controller card. >> >> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >> from it. i get >> an >> >> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >> RX02 , I get >> >> 'cant read directory ' >> >> Any words of wisdom out there >> >> Thanks, Jerry > > > What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two > set the same? I assume you have a drive # plug in the front of the > RL02 drive? Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use your hard drive on the M8639 controller? Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. Jerome Fine From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 09:46:45 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 07:46:45 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/13 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my 5120 had not one but two bad ROS boards Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 10:09:23 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 16:09:23 +0000 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? Message-ID: Hi all, This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm hoping the community has some ideas to offer. I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can boot up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac IIci over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the boot.dc42 image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges in the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images are likely OK. I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older Mac to generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian From polemon at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 10:24:05 2013 From: polemon at gmail.com (polemon) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:24:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Can I order them with IBM instead of HAL? :) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Gauger-Cosgrove" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 10:10 PM > Subject: Re: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? > >> You also have to replace the 'H' with an 'S' as well. >> >> On 7 January 2013 18:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: >>> >>> Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with >>> Candace Bergan? >>> >>> On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: >>>> >>>> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >>>> >>>> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Joseph Giliberti >>> InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum >>> Get more information at http://www.infoage.org Well, it looks really good, but in the little video they have on their site, the sound quality seems to be utter crap. It would be nice as an interface for Siri, but it's in no way customizable. And paying for a novelty item 500 USD, and then having to mod it, is ridiculous. It needs an interface so it can work with Siri and a wide-band speaker (like the ones on portable iPod speakers, etc), so the sound quality would be better. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 10:50:19 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 08:50:19 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <20130108113807.GA27490@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> <20130108113807.GA27490@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <50EC4E4B.60007@sydex.com> On 01/08/2013 03:38 AM, David Cantrell wrote: > Every Ye Olde piece of computerised industrial equipment I've seen has > some way of getting data into it, most have some way of getting data out > and many have some way of updating the software on them. Often it's > just a serial port that speaks some proprietary protocol, but having a > floppy (carefully protected from airborne oil and dust!) is pretty > common. Sure, but consider the CNC machine as a virus. Those floppies used to boot the controller often never get their write-protected status changed. Boot the machine, download the design data, run the job. No path for propagation. The floppy is used only as a bootup medium. --Chuck From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 11:16:02 2013 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:16:02 -0500 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DiskCopy 4.2 won't recognize images if the file type and creator code aren't set, so you need to use ResEdit or another tool to set them correctly. The type should be 'dImg' and the creator should be 'dCpy'. --Dave On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian King wrote: > Hi all, > > This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm hoping > the community has some ideas to offer. > > I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can boot > up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac IIci > over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file > formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the boot.dc42 > image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges in > the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the > emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images > are likely OK. > > I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older Mac to > generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac > Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. > > Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 11:58:56 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:58:56 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > The RICM has lots of them: > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 The University of Delaware Electrical Engineering department had several of these in their machine room circa 1982. I can't remember what they were used for; I think it was for research being done by a particular professor because I don't recall ever hearing of them being used for student work. Instead we were using the PDP-11/70, and I think later a VAX, for C and FORTRAN related homework. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 12:01:44 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 12:18:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 10:18:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130108101704.H93004@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the > hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, > someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) or "I had 4, couldn't find any takers, and paid an e-waste fee for disposal" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 12:28:59 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:28:59 -0800 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/13 10:01 AM, Richard wrote: > I think these things are extremely scarce to > non-existent a few still exist http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1568.98A http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646979 From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 8 12:35:58 2013 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 19:35:58 +0100 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC670E.8080305@xs4all.nl> bear (r.stricklin) wrote wrote: > > to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. Recently I did add a raw dump option to cw2dmk, but that does not quite fall in the "all the dirty work" category ;-). Fred Jan From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 12:52:50 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:52:50 -0800 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50EC6B02.4010007@gmail.com> On 1/8/2013 10:28 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646979 > > > "Object consists of CPU and 2 power cords. Letter taped to top of machine opens "Warning opening the case on this computer will probably cause the multilayer motherboard to crack, rendering the machine useless." That must makes things difficult. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 12:57:00 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50EC656B.3020601 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 1/8/13 10:01 AM, Richard wrote: > > I think these things are extremely scarce to > > non-existent > > a few still exist > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1568.98A > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646979 Yeah, I think in the CHM's catalog is about the only place I've been able to find them. It's good to know that at least 1 instance is preserved, my "scarce to non-existent" was referring to marketplace availability for collectors. I've been looking for these "graphics supercomputers" for the Computer Graphics Museum for about 10 years now and so far haven't had any leads. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 13:02:30 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:02:30 -0200 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> <50EC6B02.4010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: > "Object consists of CPU and 2 power cords. Letter taped to top of machine > opens "Warning opening the case on this computer will probably cause the > multilayer motherboard to crack, rendering the machine useless." > That must makes things difficult. They don't want eavesedroppers...No chinese clones of any kind! :oD From duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com Tue Jan 8 10:20:26 2013 From: duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com (duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 11:20:26 -0500 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Message-ID: Hello I'm trying to fix a Diablo drive Are you familiar with the Diablo Disk drives _____________________________________________________________ Duane Platfoot | Field Engineer Phone 937.214.4355 | Mobile 937.214.4355 | Fax 419-861-5901 duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com Schindler Elevator Corp | RNE 1530 Timberwolf Dr |Holland, OH 43528, USA www.us.schindler.com (Embedded image moved to file: pic06287.gif)Please consider your environment. Schindler supports sustainable urban development with safe, reliable and ecologically sound mobility solutions. ****************************************************** Notice: The information contained in this message is intended only for use of the individual(s) named above and may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate , copy it in any form or take any action in reliance of it. If you have received this message in error please delete it and any copies of it and notify the sender immediately. ******************************************************* From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 14:10:14 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:10:14 -0800 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC7D26.2090008@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/13 8:20 AM, duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com wrote: > Are you familiar with the Diablo Disk drives > yes From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 14:20:56 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 20:20:56 +0000 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 9:16 PM At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark >> Crispin was very ill and in hospice. > As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that > he was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the > Panda TOPS-20 distribution was, and if it's been archived? I have agreed to recover the Tops-20 mailing list from Lingling.Panda.com and host it on our Toad-1, a request Mark made of me long ago. I will look into recovering the last Panda distribution bits at the same time. Please allow us some time for mourning before that happens. Mark was a good friend, responsible for my move from Chicago to Stanford nearly 30 years ago. The universe is a lonelier place without him. Rich Alderson LOTS Tops-20 System Programmer, 1984-1991 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:34:41 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:34:41 -0500 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I have agreed to recover the Tops-20 mailing list from Lingling.Panda.com > and host it on our Toad-1, a request Mark made of me long ago. I will > look into recovering the last Panda distribution bits at the same time. > Please allow us some time for mourning before that happens. Rich, Thank you for taking this over. I am in no hurry for a new release, but I will be happy to hear of one whenever it does happen. I didn't know Mark well, but I did converse with him a bit over the Panda distribution and the Spare Time Gizmos "Panda Display". I know I've benefited from his labors and am sorry to hear he's gone. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 15:10:41 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:10:41 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 1/7/13 8:50 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: >>> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: >> >> .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play >> with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. > >And a zero-gravity environment to access it. > > > NOW you're talking! From g-wright at att.net Tue Jan 8 15:30:23 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:30:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Jerome H. Fine To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, January 8, 2013 7:22:48 AM Subject: Re: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> The system has >> >> M8189 cpu >> M8067 memory 256k >> M8029 RX02 >> M8061 RL02 >> M8639 HD controller >> >> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >> controller card. >> >> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i >>get >> an >> >> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I >>get >> >> 'cant read directory ' >> >> Any words of wisdom out there >> >> Thanks, Jerry > > > What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the >same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 drive? Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 > Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean much. >Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >your hard drive on the M8639 controller? > Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. It also boots from the RX02 > I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration >you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the >two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. >Jerome Fine - Jerry From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 15:33:42 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:33:42 +0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/7/13 12:16 PM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: >From: "geneb" >Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:38 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) > >[... snip ...] > >> I...I...wow. >> >> It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. >> >> Here, sign my Geek Card. :) >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... >Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! > >- Henk, PA8PDP > www. pdp-11.nl/viperpit > > > > ...and that our call signs are PDP. Geek is everywhere. -- Ian K7PDP From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 8 15:33:51 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:33:51 -0800 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 8:20 PM +0000 1/8/13, Rich Alderson wrote: >I have agreed to recover the Tops-20 mailing list from Lingling.Panda.com >and host it on our Toad-1, a request Mark made of me long ago. I will >look into recovering the last Panda distribution bits at the same time. >Please allow us some time for mourning before that happens. I for one am in no hurry, I was simply hoping that his work hadn't been lost. >The universe is a lonelier place without him. Agreed. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:00:06 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:00:06 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC96E6.6090808@gmail.com> On 08/01/2013 17:58, Richard wrote: > In article , > Michael Thompson writes: > >> The RICM has lots of them: >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 > The University of Delaware Electrical Engineering department had > several of these in their machine room circa 1982. I can't remember > what they were used for; I think it was for research being done by a > particular professor because I don't recall ever hearing of them being > used for student work. Instead we were using the PDP-11/70, and I > think later a VAX, for C and FORTRAN related homework. In the UK we used them to provide X.25 connections to VM/CMS but I have forgotten everything I ever knew about them... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:05:53 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:05:53 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Yeah, I think in the CHM's catalog is about the only place I've been > able to find them. It's good to know that at least 1 instance is > preserved, my "scarce to non-existent" was referring to marketplace > availability for collectors. I've been looking for these "graphics > supercomputers" for the Computer Graphics Museum for about 10 years > now and so far haven't had any leads. I am pretty sure Ira Moser had a Stardent for sale a while back, maybe 7 years ago? I am also pretty sure I have seen a Stardent on Ebay 5 years ago or so. Just to make you feel bad... -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 8 16:21:27 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:21:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Ian King wrote: > On 1/7/13 12:16 PM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > >> From: "geneb" >> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:38 PM >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) >> >> [... snip ...] >> >>> I...I...wow. >>> >>> It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. >>> >>> Here, sign my Geek Card. :) >>> >>> g. >>> >>> -- >>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >>> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... >> Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! >> >> - Henk, PA8PDP >> www. pdp-11.nl/viperpit > > ...and that our call signs are PDP. Geek is everywhere. -- Ian K7PDP I'm trying for a *7MOS. We'll see what happens. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 8 16:43:27 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:43:27 -0800 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues Message-ID: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> I had often run D.E. WREGE's version of Spacewar! on my PDP-12. But when I tried to run it on my PDP-8/E with a VC8/E and DEC VT01 (Tek 611), I would get flashing artifacts on the screen in addition to the normal display. I initially thought I had a hardware problem - but I could only get my VC8/E and VT01 combination to fail while running DEC's VC8/E diagnostics by setting the timing switch on the VC8/E incorrectly. When I initially looked over the VC8/E code in SPCWAR, it looked O.K. and I thought the problem was likely in the clock or interrupt code. After reviewing it extensively and not finding an issue, I tried multiple hardware clocks (EP, EC) and various VC8/E settings without success. Finally, I revisited the VC8/E code in SPCWAR - and the problem turned out to be a subtle bug in the VC8/E code. According to DEC's VC8/E writeup in the LAB 8/E manual, a "wait for done" should be given AFTER the last LOAD command (X or Y) is given and BEFORE the intensify command. In other words the code should be: TAD X /Get X coordinate DILX /Send to VC8/E TAD Y /Get Y coordinate DILY /Send to VC8/E DISD /Skip on done JMP .-1 /Wait until done DIXY /Display (Intensify) XY point ... The original SPCWAR code it was: Get X DILX /Send to VC8/E Get Y DILY /Send to VC8/E DIXY /Display (Intensify) XY point DISD /Skip on done JMP .-1 /Wait until done Because of the above coding error, the VC8/E analog output would not "settle" the correct amount of time (which for a VT01 is about 80 microseconds) because a DIXY command was given immediately after the DILY. This error created artifacts on the screen because the intensify command was in effect while the VT01 was still in the process of moving it's "beam" to the correct location. BTW: Slower displays, such as the VT01/Tek611/Tek613, do NOT need a clock to slow down Spacewar to an appropriate speed. If you would like a copy of the corrected SPCWAR.PA or a listing (SPCWAR.LS), you can get them via anonymous FTP to bickleywest.com or via your browser at ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp8_spcwar/ While I was at it, I also added an assembly option to start SPCWAR in Spaceship mode (per the original Spacewar!) as opposed to UFO mode. Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 8 16:48:56 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:48:56 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Jan 8, at 1:10 PM, Ian King wrote: > On 1/7/13 8:50 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: >>>> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: >>> >>> .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play >>> with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. >> >> And a zero-gravity environment to access it. >> > NOW you're talking! If you like to see behind-the-scenes of movies and don't mind having the cinematic fantasy tainted a little, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1r5dOwUS6Y Go to 7:20. That's Kubrick and another fellow standing inside HAL. (I'm not convinced by the guy's argument about IBM and HAL. The connections he makes are a little pained and presumptive.) From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 17:02:00 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:02:00 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/7/13 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my 5120 had >> not one but two bad ROS boards >> > > Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. > It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. > > > That's been my experience thus far... It looks like Christian Corti's worked out how to do this, but I don't know if he's made the archives public: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html The 5120 ROS is identical to the 5110 as far as I know. I don't know how applicable the above is to the 5100, I assume it's a bit different (and I don't have one to try it out on). It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS tests -- I have two bad Command/Language ROS boards from the two 5120s I have and they fail diagnostics in different places. I'm sure I could make one working board from the two if I knew which chips were bad on each one. It'd also be fun to find some software for this, but I haven't tracked any down. - Josh From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Jan 8 17:11:25 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old Message-ID: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> " 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT Thirty years ago this week the modern internet became operational as the US military flipped the switch on TCP/IP, but the move to the protocol stack was nearly killed at birth. The deadline was 1 January, 1983: after this, any of the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network's (ARPANET) 400 hosts that were still clinging to the existing, host-to-host Network Control Protocol (NCP) were to be cut off. The move to packet switching with TCP/IP was simultaneous and co-ordinated with the community in the years before 1983. More than 15 government and university institutions from NASA AMES to Harvard University used NCP on ARPANET. With so many users, though, there was plenty of disagreement. The deadline was ultimately set because everybody using ARPANET was convinced of the need for wholesale change. TCP/IP was the co-creation of Vint Cerf and Robert Kahn, who published their paper, A Protocol for Packet Network Interconnection in 1974. ARPANET was the wide-area network sponsored by the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) that went live in 1969, while Cerf had been an ARPANET scientist at Stanford University. The military had become interested in a common protocol as different networks and systems using different protocols began to hook up to ARPANET and found they couldn?t easily talk to each other, Cerf, who today is vice-president and "chief internet evangelist" at Google, announced the 30th anniversary of the TCP/IP switchover in an official Google blog post titled "Marking the birth of the modern-day Internet". The 1983 deadline?s passing was anticlimactic, Cerf recalls, considering how important TCP/IP became as an enabler for the internet. Cerf writes: When the day came, it?s fair to say the main emotion was relief, especially amongst those system administrators racing against the clock. There were no grand celebrations?I can?t even find a photograph. The only visible mementos were the ?I survived the TCP/IP switchover? pins proudly worn by those who went through the ordeal! >Yet, with hindsight, it?s obvious it was a momentous occasion. On that day, the operational Internet was born. TCP/IP went on to be embraced as an international standard, and now underpins the entire Internet. It was a significant moment, and without TCP/IP we wouldn?t have the internet as we know it. But that wasn?t the end of the story, and three years later TCP/IP was in trouble as it suffered from severe congestion to the point of collapse. TCP/IP had been adopted by the US military in 1980 following successful tests across three separate networks, and when it went live ARPANET was managing 400 nodes. After the January 1983 switchover, though, so many computer users were starting to connect to ARPANET - and across ARPANET to other networks - that traffic had started to hit bottlenecks. By 1986 there were 28,000 nodes chattering across ARPANET, causing congestion with speeds dropping from 32Kbps to 40bps across relatively small distances. It fell to TCP/IP contributor Van Jacobson, who?d spotted the slowdown between his lab in Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California at Berkeley ? just 400 yards and two IMP hops apart ? to save TCP/IP and the operational internet. Jacobson devised a congestion-avoidance algorithm to lower a computer's network data transfer speed and settle on a stable but slower connection rather than blindly flooding the network with packets. The algorithm allowed TCP/IP systems to process lots of requests in a more conservative fashion. The fix was first applied as a client-side patch to PCs by sysadmins and then incorporated into the TCP/IP stack. Jacobson went on to author the Congestion Avoidance and Control (SIGCOMM 88) paper (here) while the internet marched on to about one billion nodes. And even this is not the end of the story. Years later, in an interview with The Reg, Jacobson reckoned TCP/IP faces another crisis - and, again, it's scalability. This time, the problem is millions of users surfing towards the same web destinations for the same content, such as a piece of news or video footage on YouTube. Jacobson, a Xerox PARC research fellow and former Cisco chief scientist, told us in 2010 about his work on Content-Centric Networking, a network architecture to cache content locally to avoid everybody hitting exactly the same servers simultaneously. You can read more here. ? " - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/03/operational_internet_anniversary/ i've been meaning to post this PS: I was born in 1983 :cry: --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2,? Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee?Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only)? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 8 17:57:15 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 12:57:15 +1300 Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good article. Thanks for sharing Tom. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > " > 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN > How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle > By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author > Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59 GMT > > Thirty years ago this week > the modern internet became operational as the US military flipped the > switch on TCP/IP, but the move to the protocol stack was nearly killed > at birth. > The deadline was 1 January, 1983: after this, any of the Advanced > Research Projects Agency Network's (ARPANET) 400 hosts that were still > clinging to the existing, host-to-host Network Control Protocol (NCP) > were to be cut off. > The move to packet switching with TCP/IP was simultaneous and > co-ordinated with the community in the years before 1983. More than 15 > government and university institutions from NASA AMES to Harvard > University used NCP on ARPANET. > With so many users, though, there was plenty of disagreement. The > deadline was ultimately set because everybody using ARPANET was > convinced of the need for wholesale change. > TCP/IP was the co-creation of Vint Cerf and Robert Kahn, who published their paper, A Protocol for Packet Network Interconnection in 1974. > ARPANET was the wide-area network sponsored by the US Defense > Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) that went live in 1969, while > Cerf had been an ARPANET scientist at Stanford University. The military > had become interested in a common protocol as different networks and > systems using different protocols began to hook up to ARPANET and found > they couldn?t easily talk to each other, > Cerf, who today is vice-president and "chief internet evangelist" at > Google, announced the 30th anniversary of the TCP/IP switchover in an > official Google blog post titled "Marking the birth of the modern-day > Internet". > The 1983 deadline?s passing was anticlimactic, Cerf recalls, > considering how important TCP/IP became as an enabler for the internet. Cerf writes: > When the day came, it?s fair to say the main emotion was > relief, especially amongst those system administrators racing against > the clock. There were no grand celebrations?I can?t even find a > photograph. The only visible mementos were the ?I survived the TCP/IP > switchover? pins proudly worn by those who went through the ordeal! >>Yet, with hindsight, it?s obvious it was a momentous occasion. On > that day, the operational Internet was born. TCP/IP went on to be > embraced as an international standard, and now underpins the entire > Internet. > It was a significant moment, and without TCP/IP we wouldn?t have the internet as we know it. > But that wasn?t the end of the story, and three years later TCP/IP was in trouble as it suffered from severe congestion to the point of collapse. > TCP/IP had been adopted by the US military in 1980 following > successful tests across three separate networks, and when it went live > ARPANET was managing 400 nodes. > After the January 1983 switchover, though, so many computer users > were starting to connect to ARPANET - and across ARPANET to other > networks - that traffic had started to hit bottlenecks. By 1986 there > were 28,000 nodes chattering across ARPANET, causing congestion with > speeds dropping from 32Kbps to 40bps across relatively small distances. > It fell to TCP/IP contributor Van Jacobson, who?d spotted the > slowdown between his lab in Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and > the University of California at Berkeley ? just 400 yards and two IMP > hops apart ? to save TCP/IP and the operational internet. > Jacobson devised a congestion-avoidance algorithm to lower a > computer's network data transfer speed and settle on a stable but slower connection rather than blindly flooding the network with packets. > The algorithm allowed TCP/IP systems to process lots of requests in a more conservative fashion. The fix was first applied as a client-side > patch to PCs by sysadmins and then incorporated into the TCP/IP stack. > Jacobson went on to author the Congestion Avoidance and Control (SIGCOMM 88) paper (here) while the internet marched on to about one billion nodes. > And even this is not the end of the story. Years later, in an interview with The Reg, Jacobson reckoned TCP/IP faces another crisis - and, again, it's scalability. > This time, the problem is millions of users surfing towards the same > web destinations for the same content, such as a piece of news or video > footage on YouTube. Jacobson, a Xerox PARC research fellow and former > Cisco chief scientist, told us in 2010 about his work on Content-Centric Networking, a network architecture to cache content locally to avoid everybody > hitting exactly the same servers simultaneously. You can read more here. ? > " - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/03/operational_internet_anniversary/ > > i've been meaning to post this > PS: I was born in 1983 :cry: > > > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, > Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, > Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter > Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jan 8 19:24:32 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 20:24:32 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> On 01/08/2013 04:30 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jerome H. Fine > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Tue, January 8, 2013 7:22:48 AM > Subject: Re: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. > >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>> The system has >>> >>> M8189 cpu >>> M8067 memory 256k >>> M8029 RX02 >>> M8061 RL02 >>> M8639 HD controller >>> >>> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >>> controller card. >>> >>> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i >>> get >>> an >>> >>> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I >>> get >>> >>> 'cant read directory' >>> >>> Any words of wisdom out there >>> >>> Thanks, Jerry >> >> What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the >> same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 drive? > > Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look > tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. > > The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 > > >> Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? > Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and > M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean > much. > >> Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >> Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >> your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >> Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >> be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. > Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. > It also boots from the RX02 > >> I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration >> you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the >> two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. I'd have to look but I though the BA23 had four of the slots AB, then the rest were AB/AB serpentine below that. Sounds like the wrong slot for the RLV21 controller. Try putting a bus grant in that AB slot and moving everything down. Allison From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 8 19:30:54 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:30:54 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <50ECC84E.7020702@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 2:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > If you like to see behind-the-scenes of movies and don't mind having > the cinematic fantasy tainted a little, see: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1r5dOwUS6Y > > Go to 7:20. That's Kubrick and another fellow standing inside HAL. > > (I'm not convinced by the guy's argument about IBM and HAL. The > connections he makes are a little pained and presumptive.) I totally agree. The production musical score for instance was an accident, though later the use of all the classical music in the sound track was claimed to be visionary by those around the film. In truth the composer was having a hard time with his task, and didn't deliver in time to get the music recorded and added to the film, so they recorded and left in the tracks used for editing and timing. I suspect also that there were deals in place with IBM as well as obviously with ATT / Bell (honestly don't recall what it was then) and IBM found out that it's big scene was that its sponsored character was to murder the crew and pulled out. Too much primary photography would have had to be reshot to pull that. Hopefully someone will eventually complete the archival and organization of what Kubrick left behind and can study that. He was a huge packrat like a lot of us are, and hopefully didn't succeed in purging all traces of what went on from his boxes of stuff. This guy is clearly looking for mystical connections that might exists in other parts of the movie, but probably has a simpler explanation. It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some plot effect. jim From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 20:00:11 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:00:11 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <82D07863-A7A3-46BB-B784-71A8DA86EEE8@gmail.com> On Jan 8, 2013, at 20:24, allison wrote: > I'd have to look but I though the BA23 had four of the slots AB, then the rest were AB/AB > serpentine below that. Close; first three slots. BA123 is first four. - Dave From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 20:09:38 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 02:09:38 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <50ECC84E.7020702@jwsss.com> References: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> <50ECC84E.7020702@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E297@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jim Stephens Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 5:31 PM > It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed > to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is > trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version > of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up > some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some > plot effect. ITYM Betty Boop. When she says "I still got it, Eddie!", OrSoI'veHeard(TM). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 8 20:30:24 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E297@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Jan 9, 13 02:09:38 am" Message-ID: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> > > It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed > > to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is > > trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version > > of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up > > some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some > > plot effect. > > ITYM Betty Boop. When she says "I still got it, Eddie!", OrSoI'veHeard(TM). No, he's talking about this: http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/jessica.asp -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 8 20:37:27 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 02:37:27 +0000 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2527966B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> I traded E-mails with Mark for three different decades and got to visit him several times in the 90's whenever I was passing through Seattle. Hop on the ferry, have deep political discussions with him (although I never exactly agreed with him he was always willing to discuss!) at the diner, and play with KS-10's, TU-77's, and Massbus disks. Rest in peace, Mark. Tim. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 21:02:08 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 03:02:08 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <948104036-1357700528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1138391327-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think it was an episode of computer chronicles (via archive.org) I was watching that was showing off a new cd based encyclopedia. Bragging about the capacity and amount of cds and it could be used on the $800 cd player for the ibm pc. I think the episode of dr who representing our history with "the ipod" (a jukebox) is pretty likely though. Technically 50 years from right now would be quad core processors and lcd flat panels. I'd almost dare to say an fps gaming rig might represent 2012s home computer. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:02:27 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: NASA computers circa 1969 Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips > CM100 player? I lost track of the thread somehow, so I'm not sure *what* somebody here did. I have some CM100 players but no CM153 cards. I think the player is equivalent to the DEC RRD50, so it should also work with a KRQ50 (M7552) for a Qbus system, but I don't have one of those either. Some years back I reverse-engineered two versions of the CM100 firmware (8051). The interface uses DA15 connectors with four EIA-422 differential pairs. If they had made the interface only a *tiny* bit different, they could have supported eight CM100 drives on a single host adapter. The CM110 is the same drive with an additional board that interfaces it to SCSI, but I've never gotten my hands on one. Eric From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 8 21:04:22 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Tom Sparks wrote: > " > 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN > How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle > By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author > Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT > This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 21:12:22 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:12:22 -0800 Subject: Motorola 6800 evaluation kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2013 4:15 PM, "Stacy Carr" wrote: > > I am looking for a Motorola 6800 evaluation kit with books. I sold one > that I built in 1976 which I sold in 1992. I would like to find one > that is for sale, hopefully the same one, if not one in good shape. Which one? http://www.68bits.com/mek6800d1.html http://www.68bits.com/mek6800d2.html From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 8 21:33:33 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:33:33 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> >Jerry Wright wrote: >>>>At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>> >>> >>>The system has >>> >>>M8189 cpu >>>M8067 memory 256k >>>M8029 RX02 >>>M8061 RL02 >>>M8639 HD controller >>> >>>Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>>I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >>>controller card. >>> >>>The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i >>>get >>>an >>> >>>error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I >>>get >>> >>>'cant read directory ' >>> >>>Any words of wisdom out there >>> >>>Thanks, Jerry >>> >>> >>What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the >>same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 drive? >> >Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look >tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. > > The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 > >>Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? >> >> > >Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and >M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean >much. > The M8029 and the M8061 are totally separate devices and do NOT interact with each other. The standard CSR,VECTOR for each are totally different. If both are working correctly, you can remove one or the other and still operate. IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!! A BA23 has the top 3 slots ABCD. The other 5 slots are ABAB and must be filled to provide bus continuity up to that point in the chain. An RQDX1 MUST be the last board in the chain since it does not provide bus continuity. Unused slots at the end of the bus grant chain are not a problem and can remain empty. If you remove the M8029, move up the M8061 and the M8639 boards one slot since you can't leave the 3rd slot empty. BUT, if you place the M8061 in the 3rd slot, on a BA23, the M8029 will require a bus grant card in the dual slot beside it in the 4th quad slot or the M8639 below it will not work. If the M8639 in an RQDX2 (an RQDX2 is an M8639-YB), then you can place the M8639-YB in the 4th slot and the M8029 in the far right of the 5th slot - otherwise you will require an M9047 in the far right of the 5th slot if the M8029 is in the far left of the 5th slot. The configuration you have right now with slot 2 and slot 3 half filled is correct. Each of the dual boards in slot 2 and slot 3 are on the extreme left which is correct. If the boards were not in the correct place, you could not boot with the RX02. >>Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >>Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >>your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >> >>Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >>be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. >> >Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. >It also boots from the RX02 > Since the RX02, RX50 and Hard drive all boot, I would suggest that the RL02 hardware seems to have an isolated problem. After you boot RT-11, perform: SHOW DEVICE command and see if the M8061 controller has been recognized. Since you have strapped the M8061 as the factory setting, it should be at the standard CSR and VECTOR. RT-11 will display: "Not installed" if the M8061 is not recognized (something is not working). If: "Installed" is displayed, then the M8061 is being recognized, although that does not mean the M8061 is working correctly. Which you obviously realize, but are asking for help in determining what exactly is the problem: (a) M8061 controller (b) RL02 drive (c) Cables (d) Rl02 pack While cables may be OK, it is possible to connect them backwards. If I remember correctly, when that happens, the RL02 RED fault light is on - unless it is burned out. Of course, one of the cables could have a broken wire. At this point, it seems like you have the RL02 isolated as the problem, but you will need help from a hardware individual to figure out the best way to solve the problem. BUT, be very careful since a bad pack can damage a drive which then damages other packs. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 8 21:43:57 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:43:57 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50ECE77D.90400@compsys.to> >allison wrote: > >On 01/08/2013 04:30 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > >>>> At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>>> The system has >>>> >>>> M8189 cpu >>>> M8067 memory 256k >>>> M8029 RX02 >>>> M8061 RL02 >>>> M8639 HD controller >>>> >>>> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>>> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance >>>> its a bad >>>> controller card. >>>> >>>> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >>>> from it. i >>>> get >>>> an >>>> >>>> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >>>> RX02 , I >>>> get >>>> >>>> 'cant read directory' >>>> >>>> Any words of wisdom out there >>>> >>>> Thanks, Jerry >>> >>> >>> What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have >>> two set the >>> same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 >>> drive? >> >> >> Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look >> tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. >> >> The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 >> >> >>> Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? >> >> Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and >> M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean >> much. >> >>> Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >>> Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >>> your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >>> Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should >>> not >>> be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. >> >> Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. >> It also boots from the RX02 >> >>> I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration >>> you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the >>> two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. >> > I'd have to look but I though the BA23 had four of the slots AB, then > the rest were AB/AB > serpentine below that. > > Sounds like the wrong slot for the RLV21 controller. Try putting a > bus grant in that AB slot > and moving everything down. Actually, even if the first 4 slots were ABCD, all five boards would be positioned correctly since the last two boards are both quad. A bus grant is needed only if a dual board is placed in a quad AB/AB slot leaving one of the ABs empty. That is when a bus grant is required. Since the dual M8029 board is in an ABCD slot, the other side does NOT require a bus grant. Jerome Fine From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 8 23:22:26 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:22:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Tom Sparks wrote: > >> " >> 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN >> How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle >> By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author >> Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT >> > This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and http://olduse.net/ doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 00:11:25 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:11:25 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50ED0A0D.9040202@gmail.com> On 1/8/2013 3:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Al Kossow > wrote: > > On 1/7/13 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my > 5120 had not one but two bad ROS boards > > > Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. > It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. > > > That's been my experience thus far... > It looks like Christian Corti's worked out how to do this, but I don't > know if he's made the archives public: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html > The 5120 ROS is identical to the 5110 as far as I know. I don't know > how applicable the above is to the 5100, I assume it's a bit different > (and I don't have one to try it out on). > It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS > tests -- I have two bad Command/Language ROS boards from the two 5120s > I have and they fail diagnostics in different places. I'm sure I > could make one working board from the two if I knew which chips were > bad on each one. > It'd also be fun to find some software for this, but I haven't tracked > any down. > - Josh As a follow-up to my own mail, the emulator download contains the ROS images (including APL), as well as a disk image for the Customer Support Functions disk, which I've been looking for and which is incredibly useful as it's the only way to format new disks on the 5110/5120... So, a big thanks to Christian for taking care of this already, at least for the 5110/5120. - Josh From g-wright at att.net Wed Jan 9 00:29:44 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 22:29:44 -0800 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> Message-ID: <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome H. Fine" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. > >Jerry Wright wrote: > >>>>>At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>The system has >>>> >>>>M8189 cpu >>>>M8067 memory 256k >>>>M8029 RX02 >>>>M8061 RL02 >>>>M8639 HD controller >>>> >>>>Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>>>I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a >>>>bad >>>>controller card. >>>> >>>>The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from >>>>it. i get >>>>an >>>> >>>>error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 >>>>, I get >>>> >>>>'cant read directory ' >>>> >>>>Any words of wisdom out there >>>> >>>>Thanks, Jerry >>>> >>>What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set >>>the same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 >>>drive? >>> >>Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look >>tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. >> >> The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 >> >>>Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? >>> >> >>Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and M8029 >>controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean >>much. >> > The M8029 and the M8061 are totally separate devices and do NOT interact > with each other. The standard CSR,VECTOR for each are totally different. > If both are working correctly, you can remove one or the other and still > operate. > > IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!! > > A BA23 has the top 3 slots ABCD. The other 5 slots are ABAB and must be > filled to provide bus continuity up to that point in the chain. An RQDX1 > MUST > be the last board in the chain since it does not provide bus continuity. > Unused > slots at the end of the bus grant chain are not a problem and can remain > empty. > > If you remove the M8029, move up the M8061 and the M8639 boards one slot > since you can't leave the 3rd slot empty. > > BUT, if you place the M8061 in the 3rd slot, on a BA23, the M8029 will > require > a bus grant card in the dual slot beside it in the 4th quad slot or the > M8639 below > it will not work. If the M8639 in an RQDX2 (an RQDX2 is an M8639-YB), > then you can place the M8639-YB in the 4th slot and the M8029 in the far > right of the 5th slot - otherwise you will require an M9047 in the far > right of the > 5th slot if the M8029 is in the far left of the 5th slot. > > The configuration you have right now with slot 2 and slot 3 half filled is > correct. > Each of the dual boards in slot 2 and slot 3 are on the extreme left which > is correct. > If the boards were not in the correct place, you could not boot with the > RX02. > >>>Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >>>Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >>>your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >>> >>>Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >>>be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. >>> >>Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. >>It also boots from the RX02 >> > Since the RX02, RX50 and Hard drive all boot, I would suggest > that the RL02 hardware seems to have an isolated problem. After > you boot RT-11, perform: > > SHOW DEVICE > > command and see if the M8061 controller has been recognized. > Since you have strapped the M8061 as the factory setting, it > should be at the standard CSR and VECTOR. RT-11 will display: > > "Not installed" > > if the M8061 is not recognized (something is not working). If: > > "Installed" > > is displayed, then the M8061 is being recognized, although that > does not mean the M8061 is working correctly. Which you > obviously realize, but are asking for help in determining what > exactly is the problem: > > (a) M8061 controller > (b) RL02 drive > (c) Cables > (d) Rl02 pack > > While cables may be OK, it is possible to connect them backwards. > If I remember correctly, when that happens, the RL02 RED fault > light is on - unless it is burned out. Of course, one of the cables > could have a broken wire. At this point, it seems like you have the > RL02 isolated as the problem, but you will need help from a hardware > individual to figure out the best way to solve the problem. BUT, be > very careful since a bad pack can damage a drive which then damages > other packs. > > Jerome Fine Below is a brief print out of the messages . I will have to go back to the hardware trouble shooting. I did not feel up to packing a RL02 around tonight. It always nice to have some one look over your shoulder and confirm that what you are doing looks right. Thank you, all - Jerry >>>>>>>>>> print out <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo dl0 TRYING UNIT DL0 ERR 12 NON-EXISTENT CONTROLLER Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo du1 TRYING UNIT DU1 BOOTING FROM DU1 RT-11XM V05.01B .TYPE V5USER.TXT RT-11 V5.1 Snip......................... . .SHOW DEVICE Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- --------- DU Resident 172150 154 DZ Not installed 174200 310 DW Not installed 174000 300 304 NL Installed 000000 000 PI -Not installed 000000 000 DD Installed 176500 300 304 DL Installed 174400 160 DM Not installed 177440 210 DX Not installed 177170 264 DY Installed 177170 264 LD Installed 000000 000 LP Not installed 177514 200 LS Installed 173400 220 224 MM Not installed 172440 224 MS Not installed 172522 224 300 MT Not installed 172520 224 RK Not installed 177400 220 SL Installed 000000 000 VM Not installed 177572 000 XL Installed 176500 300 304 SP Installed 000000 110 XC Not installed 173300 210 214 .DIR DL0: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 01:19:07 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 23:19:07 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to this website (http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html) I finally managed to get hold of a Type 4 hard disk controller for the TRS-80 Model II/16/6000 family of computers (which looks like this: http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_7791 .jpg) Sourcing the external drive enclosures for Tandy systems is near impossible unless you have a lot of spare money handy so I instead did some research and mounted a Seagate ST-225 INSIDE the computer on a custom made mounting bracket over the PSU. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_276 9.jpg) The drive is a known good drive and formats and boots under MS-DOS. In order to run it under Xenix 1.03 I need to format it again using DISKUTIL. The controller can see the drive and seems to know it's ready but the problem is that the utility instantly fails the entire disk the moment you start the format. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_779 0.jpg) Tried with other ST-412 interface drives (full height, half height and 3.5") and they all do the exact same thing. Lonestar.org states that the '225 SHOULD be compatible with my controller. I looked up any documentation I could find and I see nothing about any sort of configuration the controller that needs to be set to support the drive. It should just plug in and work. The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? From bigral at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:50:43 2013 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 00:50:43 +0300 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> References: , <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Split I/D space support. Hello, I wonder if RSX-11M+ can be used on processor without Split I/D space support? Is there any feature that will became unavailable in this mode? > But it do require much more of the hardware. > It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, > that 11M do not. > 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast > about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? thank you, Andrey From stacymcarr at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 17:13:13 2013 From: stacymcarr at gmail.com (Stacy Carr) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:13:13 -0500 Subject: Motorola 6800 evaluation kit Message-ID: I am looking for a Motorola 6800 evaluation kit with books. I sold one that I built in 1976 which I sold in 1992. I would like to find one that is for sale, hopefully the same one, if not one in good shape. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 8 23:12:04 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:12:04 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 6:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed >>> to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is >>> trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version >>> of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up >>> some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some >>> plot effect. >> ITYM Betty Boop. When she says "I still got it, Eddie!", OrSoI'veHeard(TM). > No, he's talking about this: > > http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/jessica.asp > Yep, in that day's production environment you couldn't undo such things once shot. Only thing maybe doable would have been the IBM button on the space suit, which I found interesting. Not sure what that button would be expected to do when pressed. I prefer the "don't panic" Doug Adams button myself. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 8 23:22:26 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:22:26 -0800 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <948104036-1357700528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1138391327-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> <948104036-1357700528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1138391327-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <50ECFE92.7060808@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 7:02 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > I was watching that was showing off a new cd based encyclopedia. I managed to snag a copy of the Britannica version on CD's. It lives on the shelf next to the National Geo set, just like books, but now in CD form. Will take it to the friends of the library sale when I croak and not be able to get $0.10 each for them, and they'll go to the landfill. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 9 03:34:49 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 10:34:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. > It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. I wonder why. Of the five machines I have, none has any failed parts. And the contents of the 5110 model 1 has already been saved and is part of my emulator called emu5110. As usual, it's on the FTP server ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart/pub/cm/ibm5110/ Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 06:42:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 07:42:47 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2013, at 16:50, Andriy Romanenko wrote: > >> Split I/D space support. > > Hello, I wonder if RSX-11M+ can be used on processor without Split I/D space support? Is there any feature that will became unavailable in this mode? It'll run on an 11/23 with enough RAM, so yes. I don't know particular features you lose other than the program size advantage of split I/D, but others probably do. >> But it do require much more of the hardware. >> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >> that 11M do not. >> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) > > What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. Obviously, you also need an MMU. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 9 07:48:02 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 05:48:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > >> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Tom Sparks wrote: >> >>> " >>> 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN >>> How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle >>> By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author >>> Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT >>> >> This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) > > I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and http://olduse.net/ > doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. > It certainly doesn't require a login. Point your favorite newsreader to nntp.olduse.net and go. I use rtin with it, although the dates are screwed up because Tin can't grok the timestamp portion of the header. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 10:47:30 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:47:30 +0100 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> Message-ID: > .SHOW DEVICE > > Device Status CSR Vector(s) > ------ ------ --- --------- > DU Resident 172150 154 > DZ Not installed 174200 310 > DW Not installed 174000 300 304 > NL Installed 000000 000 > PI -Not installed 000000 000 > DD Installed 176500 300 304 > DL Installed 174400 160 > DM Not installed 177440 210 > DX Not installed 177170 264 > DY Installed 177170 264 > LD Installed 000000 000 > LP Not installed 177514 200 > LS Installed 173400 220 224 > MM Not installed 172440 224 > MS Not installed 172522 224 300 > MT Not installed 172520 224 > RK Not installed 177400 220 > SL Installed 000000 000 > VM Not installed 177572 000 > XL Installed 176500 300 304 > SP Installed 000000 110 > XC Not installed 173300 210 214 > > > .DIR DL0: > ?DIR-F-Error reading directory DL installed - it seems that the controller side of the M8061 is OK. I had the "?DIR-F-Error reading directory" also (some time ago). It was solved by using another external connection cable! - Henk From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Jan 9 12:14:33 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 13:14:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... Message-ID: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... unless I am looking in wrong places. We have some we have accumulated set aside here waiting for the day of a fast scanner but want to thin the stack if it has already been done elsewhere. cc me offlist also... I do not always read my digest file. thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 9 12:47:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:47:08 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> On 01/09/2013 07:42 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> But it do require much more of the hardware. >>> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >>> that 11M do not. >>> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >>> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) >> >> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? > > CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB > (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, > which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. > Obviously, you also need an MMU. Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run without an MMU. (sorry!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 9 12:45:40 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:45:40 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:40:09 -0200 "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) [... compared to a QBus PDP-11] Several orders of magnitude, for sure. But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher then that of the PeeCee. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 12:50:33 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:50:33 -0700 Subject: any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... In-Reply-To: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> References: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> Message-ID: In article <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89 at aol.com>, COURYHOUSE at aol.com writes: > any stash of MODEM info? Are you talking operating/programming/user manuals for modem products? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:06:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:06:10 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/09/2013 07:42 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>> But it do require much more of the hardware. >>>> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >>>> that 11M do not. >>>> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >>>> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) >>> >>> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? >> >> CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB >> (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, >> which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. > > Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit > addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. > >> Obviously, you also need an MMU. > > Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run > without an MMU. (sorry!) For both: I was talking about 11M+! I ran 11M on a 256KB system for quite a while until I acquired my 4MB memory board, so I'm aware. :-) - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 13:07:31 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:07:31 -0700 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher > then that of the PeeCee. :-) PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:55:23 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:55:23 +0100 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_DEC_PWS_500au?= In-Reply-To: <5082004A.9060002@xs4all.nl> References: <5082004A.9060002@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCB2B.4060109@xs4all.nl> On 20-okt-2012 3:37, MG wrote: > Two Digital (Equipment Corp.) Personal WorkStation 500au systems > > [...] Both systems have been sold. (To update this thread, in case anyone was still interested.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:56:41 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:56:41 +0100 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_HP_rx2620_=22Montecito=22?= In-Reply-To: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> References: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCB79.2090901@xs4all.nl> On 20-okt-2012 3:38, MG wrote: > Two Hewlett-Packard Integrity rx2620 systems > > [...] One will be sold this week, so one is still left. I'm not in a hurry to sell it; but if anyone's interested, then please let me know. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:57:55 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:57:55 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> References: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCBC3.3040202@xs4all.nl> On 15-nov-2012 11:33, MG wrote: > [A] barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer DS15 > > [...] This system is still available, although someone has shown interest for it (but is very slow in terms of communication). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:59:04 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:59:04 +0100 Subject: FS: 1 Gbyte DS10/DS10L/XP900 memory kits In-Reply-To: <508A9F04.3000600@xs4all.nl> References: <5082006F.9070805@xs4all.nl> <5089CF56.8040703@xs4all.nl> <508A9F04.3000600@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCC08.3010605@xs4all.nl> On 26-okt-2012 16:32, MG wrote: > In addition to the last remaining DS10 I thus have several 1 Gbyte > kits available, at least two for the time being. > > [...] These kits are still available. Please contact me for availability, I have several. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:00:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:00:26 +0100 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Indigo=B2_IMPACT_=284_Mbyt?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e=29_TRAM_board?= In-Reply-To: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCC5A.90406@xs4all.nl> On 17-okt-2012 18:34, MG wrote: > Does anyone have one of these TRAM (Texture Memory, 4 Mbytes > ideally, P/N: 030-0676-003) boards, for an SGI Indigo? IMPACT > (e.g. for HighIMPACT) graphics card to trade/sell? A few months ago I found one, so I'm no longer looking for one. I do have a defective one to get rid of. If anyone's interested to test it, see if it still has any life in it, let me know. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:00:57 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:00:57 +0100 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI DMediaPro DM2/DM3 LVDS cables In-Reply-To: <507EDD10.5070100@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDD10.5070100@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCC79.8090707@xs4all.nl> On 17-okt-2012 18:30, MG wrote: > Does anyone have a complete set of SGI DMediaPro DM2/DM3 LVDS > cables, willing to trade/sell? (See my other WTT/WTB thread, > for the IP59 board, for possible items of interest to trade.) > > [...] Found what I'm looking for (a few months ago). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:01:36 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:01:36 +0100 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI IP59 quad-processor CPU board In-Reply-To: <507EDC2B.8000602@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDC2B.8000602@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCCA0.1050109@xs4all.nl> On 17-okt-2012 18:26, MG wrote: > Does anyone have this, willing to sell or --- more ideally, > for me --- willing to trade a SGI IP59 quad-processor CPU/node- > board? (P/N: 030-1989-003) > > [...] Has anything shown up in the meantime? I'm still potentially interested in this. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:02:18 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:02:18 +0100 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes In-Reply-To: <5074CB72.2070202@xs4all.nl> References: <5074C4D3.6040402@xs4all.nl> <5074CB72.2070202@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCCCA.4090401@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have more information about this software? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:03:12 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:03:12 +0100 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCD00.9060205@xs4all.nl> On 18-dec-2012 23:20, MG wrote: > Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence > of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those > tend to be rather pricey. Not looking for this anymore, I got my hands on a SCSI<=>FC bridge recently. I only need to find a SC-LC cable now. (Most of my fiber-optical equipment uses LC cabling.) - MG From earl at baugh.org Wed Jan 9 14:16:00 2013 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:16:00 -0500 Subject: Sun 2/120 Front panel Message-ID: Howdy, I'm looking for a source for a front bezel / plate / panel for a Sun 2/120. Anyone happen to know where I might be able to obtain one? (I'd also be interested in the correct Mouse / Keyboard that goes with the Sun 2 series) I'm slowly working on restoring it, and the panel is the major missing piece. (I just recently found a replacement power supply, so I hope to be able to get it to boot shortly...) Thanks. Earl From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 9 06:56:00 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:56:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support Message-ID: <01OOSC640R1U0060AY@beyondthepale.ie> > > The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on > when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. > Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? > When this happens with a floppy drive, it is often due to the data cable having being put on upside down, causing all the active signals to be grounded and resulting in the drive being selected all the time. Perhaps a similar cabling issue could cause this with an ST-225? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 9 07:03:53 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:03:53 +0000 (WET) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 Message-ID: <01OOSCDL2J4I0060AY@beyondthepale.ie> Dave wrote: >On 08/01/2013 17:58, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > Michael Thompson writes: > > > >> The RICM has lots of them: > >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 > > The University of Delaware Electrical Engineering department had > > several of these in their machine room circa 1982. I can't remember > > what they were used for; I think it was for research being done by a > > particular professor because I don't recall ever hearing of them being > > used for student work. Instead we were using the PDP-11/70, and I > > think later a VAX, for C and FORTRAN related homework. > In the UK we used them to provide X.25 connections to VM/CMS but I have > forgotten everything I ever knew about them... > I think I also remember them being used to enable ASCII terminals to emulate 3270 terminals for an IBM mainframe, before IBM 7171 protocol converters came into use, unless that was a completely different machine also called series1... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:08:12 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:08:12 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:19 AM, John Ball wrote: > The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on > when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. > Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? > A constant BUSY light on _can_ indicate that one of the cables is reversed (sorry, I don't remember which one) HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From ac7kh at arrl.net Wed Jan 9 11:47:11 2013 From: ac7kh at arrl.net (Robert Renfro) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:47:11 -0800 Subject: Wait! There's more including MS-DOS 1.25!!!! was Sanyo MBC-550 (Yuck!) software available In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990202182730.43dfa97a@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990202182730.43dfa97a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <50EDAD1F.4060806@arrl.net> Joe By any chance do you still have the sanyo mbc-550 software disks and if so are you willing to part with them or copies ?? Thanks Semper Paratus -- Robert "Ross" Renfro, Aux Telecommunications Operator (TCO) SO-HR Division 3, District 11NR FSO-CM Flotilla 3-9, Redding, CA Station Keeper, US Coast Guard Auxiliary Communications Station, Los Molinos,CA Chico, CA Det, Flotilla 3-9 Redding, CA USN/USMC/USCG MARS Station, Los Molinos, CA AC7KH/ON9CKH/NNN0KDBT Amateur Extra Class GROL/MRS/GMRS USN/USMC/USCG MARS From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 9 12:58:32 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 10:58:32 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EDBDD8.60109@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 11:19 PM, John Ball wrote: > The drive is a known good drive and formats and boots under MS-DOS. In order > to run it under Xenix 1.03 I need to format it again using DISKUTIL. The > controller can see the drive and seems to know it's ready but the problem is > that the utility instantly fails the entire disk the moment you start the > format. > (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_779 > 0.jpg) I only have a guess, and recent postings also discuss it. I wonder if your lowlevel program is attempting to read an error map from the drive and failing? There were error maps recorded on many drives but controllers and programs seldom bothered to try to read them back and just blasted the entire track when doing a low level format. I would try to find a drive which hasn't been formatted and tested on a system which might have done this, and see where you get to. I know the problem existed with SMD drives. The manufacturers would record flaw maps on the drives and some controllers would read and use them. Most gracefully continued if the flaw map was not there, but some did not. We made a controller which overwrote the flaw maps, and used a novel soft sector format on the SMD drives to record, so we didn't actually need the flaw maps. We looked at a similar controller for the smaller drives, and it would have worked, but we never proceeded with the product. I don't know if that is your problem or how to verify that. I suspect the drive is left selected because the controller state machine hung up for some reason, and didn't transition back to an idle state. Another path to verify is whether you have the drive write protected or enabled, and whether the drive status as to whether it is write protected is properly brought back to the controller. thanks Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 9 14:28:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:28:40 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EDD2F8.9000209@neurotica.com> On 01/09/2013 02:06 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> But it do require much more of the hardware. >>>>> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >>>>> that 11M do not. >>>>> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >>>>> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) >>>> >>>> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? >>> >>> CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB >>> (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, >>> which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. >> >> Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit >> addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. >> >>> Obviously, you also need an MMU. >> >> Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run >> without an MMU. (sorry!) > > For both: I was talking about 11M+! I ran 11M on a 256KB system > for quite a while until I acquired my 4MB memory board, so I'm > aware. :-) Duh, of course. :) My mistake. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jan 9 14:49:58 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 20:49:58 +0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 9 January 2013 19:07, Richard wrote: > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. My four year old daughter (at the time): "I want to make more BLOOD!" -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 9 15:44:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 13:44:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wait! There's more including MS-DOS 1.25!!!! was Sanyo MBC-550 (Yuck!) software available In-Reply-To: <50EDAD1F.4060806@arrl.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990202182730.43dfa97a@intellistar.net> <50EDAD1F.4060806@arrl.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Robert Renfro wrote: > Joe > > By any chance do you still have the sanyo mbc-550 software disks and if so > are you willing to part with them or copies ?? > Robert, will boot disks for an MBC-555 work? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 15:57:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 16:57:54 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: <50EDD2F8.9000209@neurotica.com> References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> <50EDD2F8.9000209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3DA01593-2BCB-4B86-8209-1632FE39A1D6@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/09/2013 02:06 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? >>>> >>>> CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB >>>> (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, >>>> which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. >>> >>> Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit >>> addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. >>> >>>> Obviously, you also need an MMU. >>> >>> Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run >>> without an MMU. (sorry!) >> >> For both: I was talking about 11M+! I ran 11M on a 256KB system >> for quite a while until I acquired my 4MB memory board, so I'm >> aware. :-) > > Duh, of course. :) My mistake. Not really. I misread the question and assumed the OP was asking only about 11M+, so I failed to specify. Oops! - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 16:01:15 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:01:15 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > >> But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher >> then that of the PeeCee. :-) > > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char resolution. Or, you know, you could just make a simple DOOM MUD. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 9 16:04:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:04:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... In-Reply-To: References: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> Message-ID: <20130109140321.T17525@shell.lmi.net> > > any stash of MODEM info? On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > Are you talking operating/programming/user manuals for modem products? or details on a product (software) named MODEM? From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jan 9 16:16:52 2013 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:16:52 -0500 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EDEC54.3090507@arachelian.com> This should work nicely: http://www.frederikseiffert.de/filetype/ On 01/08/2013 12:16 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > DiskCopy 4.2 won't recognize images if the file type and creator code > aren't set, so you need to use ResEdit or another tool to set them > correctly. The type should be 'dImg' and the creator should be 'dCpy'. > > --Dave > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian King wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm hoping >> the community has some ideas to offer. >> >> I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can boot >> up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac IIci >> over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file >> formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the boot.dc42 >> image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges in >> the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the >> emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images >> are likely OK. >> >> I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older Mac to >> generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac >> Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. >> >> Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian >> >> From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 9 16:59:12 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:59:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > On 9 January 2013 19:07, Richard wrote: > >> PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. > > My four year old daughter (at the time): > > "I want to make more BLOOD!" > One of the most efficient killing machines I've ever seen in Quake was the daughter of our tech support lead (way back in my sysadmin days). The nerd rage that would flow on the net when someone discovered they'd been repeatedly and brutally hammered by an 11 year old wisp of a girl wearing pony tails and a frilly pink dress was *epic* I nearly fell out of my chair in a fit of laughter the time I heard her mutter, "Quit running! You'll only die tired!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 17:26:06 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 16:26:06 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > On Jan 9, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Richard wrote: > > > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. > > You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char > resolution. The essence of DOOM is its real-timeness. If you can't render at interactive rates, it's not DOOM, sorry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 17:57:13 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 21:57:13 -0200 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> >> > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. >> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >> resolution. > The essence of DOOM is its real-timeness. If you can't render at > interactive rates, it's not DOOM, sorry. (ducking and yelling from the trench) I see the rise of a holy war!!! :oO From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 9 18:05:10 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:05:10 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). > It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a > custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). > You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char > resolution. What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 18:17:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:17:46 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: In article <50EE05B6.4090906 at e-bbes.com>, emanuel stiebler writes: > On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > > > I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). > > It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a > > custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). > > You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char > > resolution. > > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? DOOM is all software and needs only a dumb memory-mapped framebuffer. It was developed for an MS-DOS environment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 9 18:21:38 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:21:38 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50EE0992.4000605@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-09 17:05, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > >> I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). >> It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a >> custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). >> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >> resolution. > > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? Sorry: CPU or graphics :( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 18:24:52 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:24:52 -0500 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > DOOM is all software and needs only a dumb memory-mapped framebuffer. > > It was developed for an MS-DOS environment. I seem to remember a 386-40 was just about the minimum processor to use before the frame rate went in the toilet. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 18:28:53 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:28:53 -0200 Subject: DOOM References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <13DD05423D1E48479B5859587B00836E@tababook> > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? Blood. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 18:47:23 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 16:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: References: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> e-mail me your address. I'll calculate postage and you can Gaypal me. ________________________________ From: Martin Goldberg To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping I'm interested in one but didn't see the rest of the post. How do I go about getting it? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 9 18:47:29 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:47:29 +0000 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? In-Reply-To: <50EDEC54.3090507@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Thanks, folks! I now have DC recognizing the images and creating floppies from them. Proof of the pudding will be trying to boot the Lisa from the Xenix boot floppy tomorrow morning. :-) On 1/9/13 2:16 PM, "Ray Arachelian" wrote: >This should work nicely: http://www.frederikseiffert.de/filetype/ > >On 01/08/2013 12:16 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: >> DiskCopy 4.2 won't recognize images if the file type and creator code >> aren't set, so you need to use ResEdit or another tool to set them >> correctly. The type should be 'dImg' and the creator should be 'dCpy'. >> >> --Dave >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian King wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm >>>hoping >>> the community has some ideas to offer. >>> >>> I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can >>>boot >>> up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac >>>IIci >>> over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file >>> formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the >>>boot.dc42 >>> image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges >>>in >>> the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the >>> emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images >>> are likely OK. >>> >>> I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older >>>Mac to >>> generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac >>> Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. >>> >>> Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian >>> >>> > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jan 9 19:02:08 2013 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:02:08 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? Cable to power on secondary enclosures. On 1/9/13 6:08 AM, "Torfinn Ingolfsen" wrote: > On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:19 AM, John Ball wrote: >> The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on >> when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. >> Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? >> > > A constant BUSY light on _can_ indicate that one of the cables is > reversed (sorry, I don't remember which one) > HTH From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 19:29:38 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:29:38 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >When this happens with a floppy drive, it is often due to the data cable having >being put on upside down, causing all the active signals to be grounded and >resulting in the drive being selected all the time. Perhaps a similar cabling >issue could cause this with an ST-225? I had the same idea until I switched the drive ID from 0 to 1. The BUSY light is now off and remains off on the drive until I tell DISKUTIL that the drive I want to work with is on channel 1 and not channel 0, at which point it probes for the drive (if it finds nothing it says the drive is not ready and asks to specify another drive), the BUSY light comes on and we get the same issue as before where it knows there's a drive but it can't format and says the disk is bad. The light WILL go out if the system reset is toggled which is probably because the controller is reset in the process. The cabling is keyed on the edge connector side and pin 1 is noted on both the ribbon cable and the header on the disk controller so there's no probable chance the wiring is wrong. I don't see why it could be trying to find an existing error map AFTER I specify what the factory had printed on it. It would make more sense to search for that BEFORE it prompted me to specify it. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_778 9.jpg) It could be ignoring it like you said but there's no way to try with a differently formatted disk at this time. Unsure if WRITE PROTECT is stuck. Seagate's own papers don't even mention a write protect jumper so I assume it simply does not exist for the drive. (ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/mfm/st225.txt) I also don't see WRITE PROTECT listed as a pin on the ST506/412 interface cabling. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 19:52:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 20:52:37 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> Message-ID: <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 18:57, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >>> > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. >>> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >>> resolution. >> The essence of DOOM is its real-timeness. If you can't render at >> interactive rates, it's not DOOM, sorry. > > (ducking and yelling from the trench) I see the rise of a holy war!!! :oO Well, not really. Richard is correct. A non-interactive DOOM is a proof-of-concept toy at best (like when I got Quake running on a 486 at 1.5 FPS). - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 20:46:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 19:46:54 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > Well, not really. Richard is correct. A non-interactive DOOM > is a proof-of-concept toy at best (like when I got Quake > running on a 486 at 1.5 FPS). I have actually considered what it would take to get DOOM running in a retro environment. I haven't done the calculations, but I was thinking that if you did non-photorealistic rendering of the environment via hatch patterns that you *might* be able to accomplish something that had interactive rates using a display-list based graphics terminal. In my thought experiment, the only thing retro about this was the display; there would be a modern PC driving the data down the wire. I still doubt you could actually run the game engine on a PDP-11, however, due to the memory and performance constraints. The DOOM FAQ says that the minimum supported environment is a 386sx with 4MB of RAM and 4.8-12MB disk space. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 20:58:44 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 19:58:44 -0700 Subject: TerminalsWiki: University terminal rooms Message-ID: I imagine that UDel wasn't the only university to have a public terminal room. I created this page for UDel terminal history: If anyone else is interested in capturing the history of other terminal rooms at other sites (commercial, government, or educational), that would be a great addition to the wiki. Right now this is an article in my user space, but it could easily be moved to a more public space if others contribute similar articles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 9 21:21:58 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:21:58 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> Message-ID: <50EE33D6.5010506@compsys.to> >Jerry Wright wrote: >>>>>> At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The system has >>>>> >>>>> M8189 cpu >>>>> M8067 memory 256k >>>>> M8029 RX02 >>>>> M8061 RL02 >>>>> M8639 HD controller >>>>> >>>>> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory >>>>> default. >>>>> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance >>>>> its a bad >>>>> controller card. >>>>> >>>>> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >>>>> from it. i get >>>>> an >>>>> >>>>> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >>>>> RX02 , I get >>>>> >>>>> 'cant read directory ' >>>>> >>>>> Any words of wisdom out there >>>> >> After you boot RT-11, perform: >> >> SHOW DEVICE >> >> command and see if the M8061 controller has been recognized. >> Since you have strapped the M8061 as the factory setting, it >> should be at the standard CSR and VECTOR. RT-11 will display: >> >> "Not installed" >> >> if the M8061 is not recognized (something is not working). If: >> >> "Installed" >> >> is displayed, then the M8061 is being recognized, although that >> does not mean the M8061 is working correctly. Which you >> obviously realize, but are asking for help in determining what >> exactly is the problem: >> >> (a) M8061 controller >> (b) RL02 drive >> (c) Cables >> (d) Rl02 pack >> >> While cables may be OK, it is possible to connect them backwards. >> If I remember correctly, when that happens, the RL02 RED fault >> light is on - unless it is burned out. Of course, one of the cables >> could have a broken wire. At this point, it seems like you have the >> RL02 isolated as the problem, but you will need help from a hardware >> individual to figure out the best way to solve the problem. BUT, be >> very careful since a bad pack can damage a drive which then damages >> other packs. > > Below is a brief print out of the messages . I will have to go back > to the hardware trouble shooting. I did not feel up to packing a > RL02 around tonight. > > It always nice to have some one look over your shoulder and confirm > that what you are doing looks right. > > Type ? for HELP > Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo dl0 > TRYING UNIT DL0 > > ERR 12 NON-EXISTENT CONTROLLER > Type ? for HELP > Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo du1 > TRYING UNIT DU1 > > BOOTING FROM DU1 > RT-11XM V05.01B > > .SHOW DEVICE > > Device Status CSR Vector(s) > ------ ------ --- --------- > DU Resident 172150 154 > NL Installed 000000 000 > DD Installed 176500 300 304 > DL Installed 174400 160 > DY Installed 177170 264 > LD Installed 000000 000 > LS Installed 173400 220 224 > SL Installed 000000 000 > VM Not installed 177572 000 > XL Installed 176500 300 304 > SP Installed 000000 110 > > > > .DIR DL0: > ?DIR-F-Error reading directory Another command which will check the RL02 system without the requirement for a valid directory to be present is: DUMP/TERM DL0: DUMP/TERM/IGNORE DL0: ^C typed TWICE (VERY QUICKLY) will terminate the dump. If no blocks are dumped from the first command, try the second. If you still get no blocks, then you need to determine which of (a) , (b), (c) or (d) is causing the problem - or something else which can also happen, although it would be unusual. For me, fixing any of the above four requires duplicate hardware which I use to replace the bad hardware. Tony Duell knows how to fix hardware and takes the opposite point of view. Indeed, Tony abhors what I suggest. I agree with Tony, but I do not have the hardware skills or the knowledge - and at 74 years old will not be looking to acquire it. Which is why I tend to stick now to running PDP-11 instructions under an Emulator on my PC and why I had a local PDP-11 hardware addict take all of my RL02 drives, racks and packs away. While I realize you are probably not that familiar with RT-11, the "SHOW DEVICE" list is the sort of information which is needed in the first place. While I would not be able to do anything with the above information, individuals who are able to fix hardware, such as Tony, at least know where to start. For myself, about the only thing I am able to do is to substitute items that are working from a hardware point of view. Since the M8061 might be working, at least based on the "SHOW DEVICE" information, then the next step which is the easiest would be to change the RL02 pack - subject to my warning, of course. If you don't have multiple hardware and you can't repair items, then I suggest that you evaluate if you are using the RL02 just to be able to have the satisfaction (hardware addicts are like that) of hearing, smelling and seeing the RL02 run. As a software addict, my focus is very different and does not depend on the hardware I am using, only the PDP-11 instructions which are being executed. My challenge and enjoyment is fixing bugs and making enhancements in the software. RT-11 still has many bugs, a few of which are serious. For reasons which I have not been able to fully understand, I find a great deal of satisfaction in finding and fixing those bugs PLUS adding enhancements. Just one example of an enhancement that I recently found could be included is code which informs an RT-11 user which Emulator of SimH, Ersatz-11 or V11 is being used - if any. I realize that this probably seems crazy to any hardware addicts, but I guess the challenge if why it is so much fun and so satisfying. Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 9 21:28:03 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:28:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201301100328.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) > [... compared to a QBus PDP-11] > Several orders of magnitude, for sure. Indeed. If sheer processing power is what you want, you're on the wrong mailing list. :-) > But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude > higher then that of the PeeCee. :-) Indeed. At least for this crowd. If your fun factor for machines is based on how much DOOM they can play, then probably not for you. Classiccmp is quite possibly the wrong hobby for you in that case. I'm not sure where I get the fun in playing with computers. I've thought about that and come to not even tentative conclusions. But I _am_ sure that merely being old and slow does not make a computer system unfun for me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 9 21:33:07 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:33:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: nntp.olduse.net In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >>> This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) >> >> I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and http://olduse.net/ >> doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. >> > It certainly doesn't require a login. Point your favorite newsreader to > nntp.olduse.net and go. > > I use rtin with it, although the dates are screwed up because Tin can't grok > the timestamp portion of the header. tin 1.9.6 release 20100522 ("Lochruan") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2010 Iain Lea. Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... Server expects authentication. Please enter username: _ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 9 21:42:58 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:42:58 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50EE38C2.2090203@compsys.to> >Jochen Kunz wrote: >>On Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:40:09 -0200 Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) >> >> >[... compared to a QBus PDP-11] >Several orders of magnitude, for sure. >But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher >then that of the PeeCee. :-) > Since I am a software addict, I find that BOTH are available. I recently tested RT-11 under Ersatz-11 using a 64 bit Windows 7. It ran VERY approximately 150 times as fast as a PDP-11/93 It is almost too fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still have the fun, but now the speed and convenience of up to TWELVE emulated VT100 terminals on my desk as opposed to just SIX real VT100 terminals on my desk connected to a PDP-11/83. There is a possibility of a graphics option as well. I do not know what is included, but is sounds interesting. Jerome Fine From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 9 21:44:31 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:44:31 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/01/13 7:05 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > >> I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). >> It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a >> custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). >> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >> resolution. > > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? > Texture mapping in software, so: CPU, since there is a bunch of stuff done per pixel, and there are quite a lot of pixels. Then you need a framebuffer to render the pixels. Unless you had an SGI, this stuff really didn't get exciting until RISC and PowerPC (Marathon, Halo 1...) and then hardware 3D, which soon enough made it to the PC world. --Toby From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Jan 9 22:10:54 2013 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 23:10:54 -0500 Subject: HP 3000 microcode Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of the "HP 3000 Series III Microprogram Listing Manual" (part number 30000-90136)? Bitsavers has the Series II microcode manual (30000-90023), and while that is helpful, it's not authoritative for the Series III. Thanks. -- Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 22:47:18 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 23:47:18 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 10:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? >> > > Texture mapping in software, so: CPU, since there is a bunch of stuff done per pixel, and there are quite a lot of pixels. Then you need a framebuffer to render the pixels. Well. EVERYTHING in software. Texture mapping, sprites, polygon setup, geometry transforms, blitting (or, generally, page-swapping). There was no hardware assist whatsoever unless you count page-swapping (which you might, if you worked on machines like the Macintosh which didn't have it). > Unless you had an SGI, this stuff really didn't get exciting until RISC and PowerPC (Marathon, Halo 1...) and then hardware 3D, which soon enough made it to the PC world. Marathon was written for both 68K and PowerPC, and actually performed pretty OK on a 25 MHz 68040. Halo 1 was WAY into the 3D acceleration era; the original development was for fast G3s running Rage 128 at a minimum, then quickly moved to Xbox (PIII Celeron with third-gen NVIDIA graphics) once Microsoft bought Bungie. DOOM (which had an engine similar in complexity to Marathon) ran OK on a 386 and pretty damn well on a 486, neither of which was RISC in any sense. It was also never hardware accelerated until iD open-sourced it and the community modified it to be so, long after the engine had any real relevance. We are quickly moving away from what most people might consider "vintage", though parts of this discussion are well over 20 years old. To bring it back, maybe: I'm rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear on what those extenders actually DID. Surely there are five or ten people overflowing with information on this point here? - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Wed Jan 9 23:00:49 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:00:49 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> References: <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130110050049.GA10936@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 11:47:18PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >To bring it back, maybe: I'm >rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and >Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the >limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear >on what those extenders actually DID. A 386 DOS extender puts the CPU into protected mode and loads a 32-bit user program, while keeping DOS alive in a V86 box (286 DOS extenders would have to switch in and out of genuine real mode) where it's blissfully unaware that anything has changed. Then the DOS extender takes care of mode switching so that the user program can make DOS calls, and handle hardware interrupts, and map windows to memory-mapped hardware, and whatever else needs doing. It's horrifying but also kind of beautiful -- all the benefits of an OS that's too stupid to stop you from doing whatever you want, *and* tons of memory. John Wilson D Bit From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 9 23:14:39 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:14:39 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EE4E3F.20807@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/01/13 11:47 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 9, 2013, at 10:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? >>> >> >> Texture mapping in software, so: CPU, since there is a bunch of stuff done per pixel, and there are quite a lot of pixels. Then you need a framebuffer to render the pixels. > > Well. EVERYTHING in software. Texture mapping, sprites, > polygon setup, geometry transforms, blitting (or, generally, > page-swapping). ... > >> Unless you had an SGI, this stuff really didn't get exciting until RISC and PowerPC (Marathon, Halo 1...) and then hardware 3D, which soon enough made it to the PC world. > > Marathon was written for both 68K and PowerPC, and actually > performed pretty OK on a 25 MHz 68040. ... I had forgotten it ran on an '040. We played it to death. :) --Toby > ran OK on a 386 and pretty damn well on a 486, neither of > which was RISC in any sense. ... > > > - Dave > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 10 00:25:53 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 23:25:53 -0700 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > We are quickly moving away from what most people might > consider "vintage", though parts of this discussion are > well over 20 years old. To bring it back, maybe: I'm > rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and > Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the > limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear > on what those extenders actually DID. Surely there are > five or ten people overflowing with information on this > point here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Jan 10 00:33:36 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:33:36 +0100 Subject: nntp.olduse.net In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301100633.r0A6XabG021858@ls-al.eu> David Griffith wrote: > > tin 1.9.6 release 20100522 ("Lochruan") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2010 Iain Lea. > > Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... > Server expects authentication. > Please enter username: _ Weird... bsdhome:reiche$ rm -rf .tin; NNTPSERVER=nntp.olduse.net tin -r tin 1.8.3 release 20070201 ("Scotasay") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2006 Iain Lea. Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... Leafnode NNTP Daemon, version 1.11.8 running at wren.kitenet.net (my fqdn: wren.kitenet.net) Reading keymap file... Reading groups from active file... Reading groups from newsrc file... Checking for new groups... Reading global attributes file... Reading attributes file... Reading newsgroups file... Reading newsrc file... tin 1.8.3 release 20070201 ("Scotasay") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2006 Iain Lea. Welcome to tin, a full screen threaded Netnews reader. It can read news locally (ie. /news) or remotely (-r option) from a NNTP (Network News Transport Protocol) server. -h lists the available command line options. re, reiche From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 10 02:29:41 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:29:41 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <201301100328.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201301100328.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130110092941.87d22da7bdf2b81139cb69e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:28:03 -0500 (EST) Mouse wrote: > I'm not sure where I get the fun in playing with computers. Well playing QBus card Tetris or hard disk Sokoban. Or playing text adventures with all those litle .c and .h files below /usr/src/... ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ball.of.john at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 03:56:34 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:56:34 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? Cable to power >on secondary enclosures. Technical bulletins state that yes the cabling for a second drive is modified to accomidate for the system to power on the external drives by means of a relay. If you didn't get the memo and you attached a second drive you would be greeted by a resistor on the drive burning out. :) From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Jan 10 04:07:52 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 02:07:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics Message-ID: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is seen in these books and games (see bellow) I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling what render can create this style? Andr? LaMothe's Black Art of 3D Game Programming Waite Group Press's "Virtual Reality Creations." ? Christopher Lampton's Flights of Fantasy Snes' Star fox Atari's S.T.U.N. Runner Sega's Star Wars Arcade Infogrames's Alone in the dark 1 Dynamix's Red Baron [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_3D --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2,? Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee?Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Jan 10 06:10:50 2013 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:10:50 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support References: Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D74@meow.catcorner.org> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Ball > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:57 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support > > >Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? > Cable to power > >on secondary enclosures. > > Technical bulletins state that yes the cabling for a second drive is > modified to accomidate for the system to power on the > external drives by > means of a relay. If you didn't get the memo and you attached > a second drive > you would be greeted by a resistor on the drive burning out. :) > That is if you're using external drives in the radio shack enclosure with board types 2 and 3. The board in question here does not operate that way. ST-506/ST-412 standard interface. Any bad track info already on the drive is ignored. User has to enter it in diskutil. It is stored on the partition that is created. Try the drive in a PC and make sure it works first. Kelly From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jan 10 06:12:09 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:12:09 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube Message-ID: For those who might be interested... Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color Computer. http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M Terry Stewart (Tez) From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 08:48:36 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 06:48:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: nntp.olduse.net In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > >>>> This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) >>> >>> I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and >>> http://olduse.net/ doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. >>> >> It certainly doesn't require a login. Point your favorite newsreader to >> nntp.olduse.net and go. >> >> I use rtin with it, although the dates are screwed up because Tin can't >> grok the timestamp portion of the header. > > tin 1.9.6 release 20100522 ("Lochruan") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2010 Iain > Lea. > > Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... > Server expects authentication. > Please enter username: _ > Hrm. I find that if I run rtin by itself, it connects with no issue. if I run it rtin -A, it will ask for a user name & pass but will take whatever input it's given and comes right up. I'm also using a build from 2006, version 1.8.2. I wasn't aware there was newer, so I should upgrade. Thanks. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 09:04:26 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:04:26 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D74@meow.catcorner.org> References: , <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D74@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: Hi I'm using one of the TRS80's controller for my M20 Olivetti.It is also, exactly the same as the WD1000 except that annoyingwrite protect signaland data buffers. As was mentioned, the write protect is not part of theoriginal spec.I had to hard tie the wire to get the controller to work witha ST251.My Olivetti did expect bad track information on the first track and sector.The disk I had was used on a PC and had other information in thatlocation. I had to write some code to erase that bad track part beforeI could get the disk to initialize.I also had problems because of the stepping rate of the ST251 was slowerthan the original Olivetti. I had to find the code on the Olivetti floppy disk( not in the bios, it needed to boot from floppy first ) and change the timingto use the auto stepping.Dwight > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:10:50 -0500 > From: kelly at catcorner.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Ball > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:57 AM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support > > > > >Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? > > Cable to power > > >on secondary enclosures. > > > > Technical bulletins state that yes the cabling for a second drive is > > modified to accomidate for the system to power on the > > external drives by > > means of a relay. If you didn't get the memo and you attached > > a second drive > > you would be greeted by a resistor on the drive burning out. :) > > > That is if you're using external drives in the radio shack enclosure > with board types 2 and 3. The board in question here does not operate > that way. ST-506/ST-412 standard interface. Any bad track info already > on the drive is ignored. User has to enter it in diskutil. It is stored > on the partition that is created. > > Try the drive in a PC and make sure it works first. > > Kelly > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 09:17:29 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:17:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > > In article <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF at gmail.com>, > David Riley writes: > >> We are quickly moving away from what most people might >> consider "vintage", though parts of this discussion are >> well over 20 years old. To bring it back, maybe: I'm >> rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and >> Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the >> limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear >> on what those extenders actually DID. Surely there are >> five or ten people overflowing with information on this >> point here? > > > DOOM used DOS4GW as the extender and Watcom C as the compiler. Watcom C eventually went open source and is now available as Open Watcom - it's still a great compiler. (http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page) It may still include the FORTRAN compiler, but I'm not sure. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 10 12:43:43 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:43:43 +0000 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: geneb Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 2:59 PM > On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: >> On 9 January 2013 19:07, Richard wrote: >>> PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. >> My four year old daughter (at the time): >> "I want to make more BLOOD!" > One of the most efficient killing machines I've ever seen in Quake was the > daughter of our tech support lead (way back in my sysadmin days). The > nerd rage that would flow on the net when someone discovered they'd been > repeatedly and brutally hammered by an 11 year old wisp of a girl wearing > pony tails and a frilly pink dress was *epic* > I nearly fell out of my chair in a fit of laughter the time I heard her > mutter, "Quit running! You'll only die tired!" ROTFLMAO. That's going to keep me snickering for a long time. That line could come from one of the better SF stories I've read, say Walter Jon Williams or John Scalzi. Thank you. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Jan 10 12:45:26 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:45:26 +0000 Subject: Lotus Improv Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BCB73B@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone remember Lotus Improv? I understand that a version 3.0 was finished, though unreleased, and was a 32-bit application (unlike the final 2.1, which is 16-bit). Anyone know if Improv 3.0 survived? Thanks! -Ben From wilson at dbit.com Thu Jan 10 12:57:17 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:57:17 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130110185717.GA20903@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 07:17:29AM -0800, geneb wrote: >Watcom C eventually went open source and is now available as Open >Watcom - it's still a great compiler. >(http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page) >It may still include the FORTRAN compiler, but I'm not sure. Yes FORTRAN is still included. And both compilers still work on DOS and OS/2 as well as the usual suspects (and can cross-build in any combination). Really great package! John Wilson D Bit From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 13:06:44 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2013, Rich Alderson wrote: >> One of the most efficient killing machines I've ever seen in Quake was the >> daughter of our tech support lead (way back in my sysadmin days). The >> nerd rage that would flow on the net when someone discovered they'd been >> repeatedly and brutally hammered by an 11 year old wisp of a girl wearing >> pony tails and a frilly pink dress was *epic* > >> I nearly fell out of my chair in a fit of laughter the time I heard her >> mutter, "Quit running! You'll only die tired!" > > ROTFLMAO. That's going to keep me snickering for a long time. That line > could come from one of the better SF stories I've read, say Walter Jon Williams > or John Scalzi. > I'm quite sure she heard it from either one of us or someplace else. It was still insanely funny though. We dubbed her "Elizideath". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 13:08:36 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:08:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <20130110185717.GA20903@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> <20130110185717.GA20903@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2013, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 07:17:29AM -0800, geneb wrote: >> Watcom C eventually went open source and is now available as Open >> Watcom - it's still a great compiler. >> (http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page) >> It may still include the FORTRAN compiler, but I'm not sure. > > Yes FORTRAN is still included. And both compilers still work on DOS and > OS/2 as well as the usual suspects (and can cross-build in any combination). > Really great package! > Ah, ok. I do know that when the compiler was a commercial product, it was the go-to tool for speed critical applications. It had the best optimizer out there at the time. I suspect it's still competitive. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From chorny at bell.net Wed Jan 9 23:15:15 2013 From: chorny at bell.net (Ernie Chorny) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:15:15 -0500 Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi - please advise shipping to Canada, postal code L5A 1E3. Thank you. Ernie Chorny From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 12:11:05 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe Message-ID: > From: Richard > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe > > In article , > Randy Dawson writes: > >> Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... > > I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned > up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to > non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the > hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, > someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) The RICM has one... https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/ardent-titan -- Michael Thompson From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 15:25:59 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:25:59 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C4D2A25-A275-4BBA-959D-8345AA540A1A@gmail.com> On Jan 10, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> From: Richard >> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 >> Subject: Re: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe >> >> In article , >> Randy Dawson writes: >> >>> Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... >> >> I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned >> up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to >> non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the >> hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, >> someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) > > The RICM has one... > > https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/ardent-titan I recognize that the terms are rather arbitrary, but what qualifies this as a supercomputer rather than just a large, graphics-specific mini? Or is it more to do with advertising copy? There were quite a few large minis with vector units, after all. I ask with trepidation, of course, because "supercomputer" is such a nebulous term to begin with, but this doesn't even seem like it would have reached the classification of "mainframe" in its time. Perhaps I'm misjudging it? - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 17:06:17 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:06:17 -0600 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: o wow theres a blast from the past i forgot all about good old days of quake. anyone here ever play red faction? From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 10 18:26:49 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 19:26:49 -0500 Subject: Major progress on S2I project Message-ID: <00e101cdef92$71d6ab10$55840130$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! The N8VEM SCSI to IDE/SD project has been renamed the S2I project. There has been large progress of late and things are really shaping up. I have distributed 3 of the 4 remaining prototype PCBs and have accumulated a short list of hardware changes for the next PCB revision. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/62549548/S2I%20Status Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 18:35:22 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:35:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: References: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357864522.4506.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 16$ US. Thanks for your interest. ________________________________ From: Ernie Chorny To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping Hi - please? advise shipping to Canada, postal code L5A 1E3. Thank you. Ernie Chorny From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jan 10 19:32:04 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:32:04 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: <2C4D2A25-A275-4BBA-959D-8345AA540A1A@gmail.com> References: <2C4D2A25-A275-4BBA-959D-8345AA540A1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EF6B94.3000604@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/01/13 4:25 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 10, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >>> From: Richard >>> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe >>> >>> In article, >>> Randy Dawson writes: >>> >>>> Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... >>> >>> I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned >>> up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to >>> non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the >>> hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, >>> someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) >> >> The RICM has one... >> >> https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/ardent-titan > > I recognize that the terms are rather arbitrary, but what qualifies > this as a supercomputer rather than just a large, graphics-specific > mini? Or is it more to do with advertising copy? There were quite > a few large minis with vector units, after all. > > I ask with trepidation, of course, because "supercomputer" is such > a nebulous term to begin with, but this doesn't even seem like it > would have reached the classification of "mainframe" in its time. > Perhaps I'm misjudging it? It definitely wasn't a mainframe. I saw one circa 1989 at AUUG in Sydney, Australia (iirc). What I remember from its demo was impressive-for-the-time real time simulation (a waving flag? what would be a trivial javascript hack today) and graphics - very likely the most powerful machine at the show - and a pretty desirable tool for engineering/CAD/etc. This was around the same vintage as Apollo DN10000 and similar... when real time visualisation was a hot topic and the market was highly heterogeneous. The Titan could have been considered something like a "deskside supercomputer", a style of marketing that was revived by Steve Jobs for the Mac G5 (and G4?) I think, on the basis of Altivec performance mainly. (Thanks ckaiser for helping Altivec reach its potential - a decade later!) --Toby > > > - Dave > > > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 19:58:03 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: also have a non working SX-64, keyboard busted up, 40$ In-Reply-To: <1357864522.4506.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1357864522.4506.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357869483.49071.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the monitor lights up, but there's no rom message. Keyboard has issues. Contact me for pictures. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 22:51:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 04:51:23 +0000 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <2050001494-1357879882-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-290888640-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> My friends and I really loved the red faction demo. *Everything* could be blown up. Was fun as hell and you could burrow your way into a wall and end up diving through the ceiling on to your opponents. Several of us ran out to buy it when it came out and found they made a bunch of objects immune to ammo in the release :-( totally different game than what we had set out to buy so we didn't make that mistake again with their releases. Otoh I still love the "summoner geeks" video. -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Stoness Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:06:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] o wow theres a blast from the past i forgot all about good old days of quake. anyone here ever play red faction? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 22:58:32 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:58:32 -0600 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: <2050001494-1357879882-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-290888640-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <2050001494-1357879882-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-290888640-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: theres still some die hard people playing On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:51 PM, wrote: > My friends and I really loved the red faction demo. *Everything* could be blown up. Was fun as hell and you could burrow your way into a wall and end up diving through the ceiling on to your opponents. Several of us ran out to buy it when it came out and found they made a bunch of objects immune to ammo in the release :-( totally different game than what we had set out to buy so we didn't make that mistake again with their releases. > > Otoh I still love the "summoner geeks" video. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Stoness > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:06:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside > case (UK)] > > o wow theres a blast from the past i forgot all about good old days of quake. > > anyone here ever play red faction? > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 11 00:55:47 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:55:47 -0700 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues In-Reply-To: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > I had often run D.E. WREGE's version of Spacewar! on my PDP-12. But > when I tried to run it on my PDP-8/E with a VC8/E and DEC VT01 (Tek > 611), I would get flashing artifacts on the screen in addition to the > normal display. > [...] > BTW: Slower displays, such as the VT01/Tek611/Tek613, do NOT need a > clock to slow down Spacewar to an appropriate speed. You've got me confused. I thought you said that the VT01/Tek611 was where you had the problem. I used to run it on a LAB-8/e using a VR14 monitor, and didn't observe the problem, but I think the VR14 is pretty slow. Eric From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 01:00:52 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:00:52 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? Message-ID: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on cleaning up the9865A. It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids that control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the forward direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace down the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I thought I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've looked in the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, aside from Tony's notes for the interface. Thanks as always, Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 11 01:05:02 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 00:05:02 -0700 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > The 5120 ROS is identical to the 5110 as far as I know. Yes, there might be older and newer versions of the code, and possibly the versions of executable and non-executable ROS may need to match, but generally they should be interchangeable between the 5110 and 5120. (The "computer" portion of the 5120 is considered a 5110 Model 3.) There are substantial differences between the 5100 and 5110/5120 software such that I don't think any of the ROS code, executable or non-executable, is interchangeable between them. I can read any of the ROS modules out-of-circuit, and can read the non-executable ROS in-circuit using a logic analyzer, but my 5100 has bad ROS modules so I haven't bothered reading those. CHM has a working 5100, but my request to read the ROS modules was not well-received. I can understand that they are worried that I might damage them, but they'll likely fail within the next 10 years anyhow. > It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS > tests The Maintenance Information Manual has enough information to identify the failing module. I don't think there's much point to identifying it to the chip rather than just the failing module, since it's basically implausible to repair the modules. The simplest repair is to build a replacement module using a modern flash memory chip and a CPLD. That's how I plan to fix my 5100 if I can get a dump from a good machine. I've also considered building RAM modules suitable for replacement or expansion. Eric From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 01:28:02 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:28:02 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50EFBF02.6060309@gmail.com> On 1/10/2013 11:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS >> tests > > The Maintenance Information Manual has enough information to identify > the failing module. I don't think there's much point to identifying > it to the chip rather than just the failing module, since it's > basically implausible to repair the modules. Not that I doubt your expertise, but can you elaborate as to why repair is implausible? Is it simply impossible / extremely difficult to remove the chips from the PCB? - Josh > The simplest repair is to build a replacement module using a modern > flash memory chip and a CPLD. That's how I plan to fix my 5100 if I > can get a dump from a good machine. I've also considered building RAM > modules suitable for replacement or expansion. > > Eric > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 11 02:09:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:09:51 +0000 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Message-ID: Youy may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is that my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end (I think). I am reading this in an internet cafe... > Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, > with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the > 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on > cleaning up the9865A. Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of articles for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you might find them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course there's no real way to transfer them at the moment. > > It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. > however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids that > control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the forward > direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace down > the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I thought > I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've looked in > the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, aside from > Tony's notes for the interface. I believe that some of the boards in the internal tape controller of the HP9830 are the same (or at least very similar) to those in the HP9865 -- at least they have 09865-xxxxx part numbers. The official HP service manual covers the controller to component level, and of course there are my schematics for the HP9830. I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing this from memory) is the 09865-66564. There's a little logic and a couple of transistors to drive the solenoids. I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 11 02:23:42 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:23:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EFBF02.6060309@gmail.com> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> <50EFBF02.6060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EFCC0E.8010907@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Not that I doubt your expertise, but can you elaborate as to why > repair is implausible? Is it simply impossible / extremely difficult > to remove the chips from the PCB? It's somewhat difficult to remove them without damaging them. The bigger problem is that the chip you replace it with can't really be expected to last much longer. At this point they're all around 30 years old. I'm not certain what the failure mode is, but they seem to be past their best-by date. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 11 06:08:03 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:08:03 +0100 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002f01cdeff4$521fd910$f65f8b30$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens tony duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 11 januari 2013 9:10 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? > > Youy may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is that > my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end (I think). I am > reading this in an internet cafe... > > > Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A > > recently, with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to > > repair the 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been > > working on cleaning up the9865A. > > Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of articles > for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you might find > them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course there's no > real way to transfer them at the moment. > > > > > It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) > > -- > > I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're > size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. > > > however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids > > that control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the > > forward > > direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace > > down the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I > > thought I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've > > looked in the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, > > aside from Tony's notes for the interface. > > I believe that some of the boards in the internal tape controller of the > HP9830 are the same (or at least very similar) to those in the > HP9865 -- at least they have 09865-xxxxx part numbers. The official HP service > manual covers the controller to component level, and of course there are my > schematics for the HP9830. You can download the HP 9830 service manual at the Australian HPmuseum website. Most boards used in the 9865 are the same as in the HP 9830, I know for sure. The only boards that differ are the interface logics and the tape drive board with the head amplifiers on it. I suppose you looked at the pictures I made from one of mine on flickr, http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/sets/72157630819381098/ After you checked the motor drive board, look at the IO card (A61) because that board contains some 7403 's U1 and U3 which have a tendency to fail. If this board fails you get errors which seems to point to other components, so it should be check before you look at other boards. The manual is very handy when looking for problems, you can find there a description of all the signals with fault indications. But also check the interface card, that also can be a pain in the ass (you should ask Tony friendly if I may send you the diagram of the interface). You also should look at the LDR from the tape sensor next to the head, they have a tendency to go to a high resistance > 1k. The result of that is no fast forward winding because the sensor never 'detects' the darkening of the tape. > I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing this from memory) is > the 09865-66564. There's a little logic and a couple of transistors to drive the > solenoids. > > I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... Not likely.. -Rik From reiche at ls-al.eu Fri Jan 11 08:01:49 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:01:49 +0100 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838@ls-al.eu> Tom Sparks wrote: > > I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is seen in these books and games (see bellow) > > I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling > what render can create this style? > Well, you have a couple of techniques listed there, but it's old skool vector graphics which could be done using extremely simple models with large flat polygons in your modeler. Then render it with a technique called Cell Shading which a lot of render engines support, simply pick one. re, reiche From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 08:48:20 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:48:20 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company >> I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. >> It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They >> would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass >> master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of >> those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost >> it somewhere along the way. > > You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by > the name of "Murf", did you? Wherever he be, may he be cursed with rotting genitals. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 11 09:08:45 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 07:08:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > For those who might be interested... > > Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color Computer. > > http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M > Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info on OS/9? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 11 11:25:17 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:25:17 -0800 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues In-Reply-To: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> References: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20130111092517.67944ec6@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:55:47 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I had often run D.E. WREGE's version of Spacewar! on my PDP-12. But > > when I tried to run it on my PDP-8/E with a VC8/E and DEC VT01 (Tek > > 611), I would get flashing artifacts on the screen in addition to > > the normal display. > > [...] > > BTW: Slower displays, such as the VT01/Tek611/Tek613, do NOT need a > > clock to slow down Spacewar to an appropriate speed. > > You've got me confused. I thought you said that the VT01/Tek611 was > where you had the problem. The problem was with incorrect coding of the VC8/E driver in Wrege's Spacewar! [Early on in my attempts to diagnose of the VT01 artifact problem, I thought the issue was with hardware (VC8/E or VT01), but subsequently found it to be software.] > I used to run it on a LAB-8/e using a VR14 monitor, and didn't > observe the problem, but I think the VR14 is pretty slow. The VR14 is much faster that the VT01 (which is probably why it worked). Here are the VC8/E's DEC defined load delay specs (us=microseconds): Tek602: 6us VR14: 21us VR20: 16us red, 21us green VT01/Tek611/Tek613: 100us The above are the standard configurations available for the VC8/E by changing switches and/or jumpers. Other delay time configurations are possible by changing various capacitor/resistor combinations... The incorrect code in Wrege's original driver intensified the beam before the VT01's X/Y amps had settled, hence the artifacts. I fixed that by re-writing the VC8/E driver to DEC's specs - so it will work with any device supported by a correctly configured VC8/E. configured Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 11:29:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:29:10 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >> For those who might be interested... >> >> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >> Computer. >> >> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >> > Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info > on OS/9? That would be great. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 11:31:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:31:27 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F04C6F.4020304@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 09:48 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by >> the name of "Murf", did you? > > Wherever he be, may he be cursed with rotting genitals. You're being far, far too nice. What an unbelievably evil individual. I get contacted about twice a year by different people who are looking for him. They always seem to be in a bad mood. I think either he owes people money, or he's just made that many enemies that, as soon as they mentally and financially recover from his shitfulness, they come looking for him. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 11:50:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:50:55 -0700 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history Message-ID: Some nice pics here with a little narrative: < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Jan 11 11:53:42 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:53:42 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos about them." She shot me a very threatening look. I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." On 11 January 2013 17:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>> For those who might be interested... >>> >>> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >>> Computer. >>> >>> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >>> >> Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info >> on OS/9? > > That would be great. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 11:56:32 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:56:32 -0700 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838@ls-al.eu> References: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: In article <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838 at ls-al.eu>, Sander Reiche writes: > Tom Sparks wrote: > > > > I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is seen in these books and games (see bellow) > > > > I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling > > what render can create this style? > > > Well, you have a couple of techniques listed there, but it's old skool vector > graphics which could be done using extremely simple models with large flat > polygons in your modeler. Then render it with a technique called Cell Shading > which a lot of render engines support, simply pick one. The books he cited in his list are all books describing how to write your own engine, not using someone else's, so I gather that he's thinking of doing things from scratch and not using anyone else's code. Basically, all the "old school" 3D software engines all boil down to ways of getting the inner rendering loop to run fast enough on your hardware to achieve real-time rates. This is why the monsters in DOOM are sprites and not 3D models and even the representation of the game level is strictly 2D. (On areas where there appears to be a 3D element with ramps, stairs and such, you cannot go underneath any of those raised areas.) The data structures used to hold the maps are custom for the game and basically use a boundary representation (i.e. "B-reps") so that you can cast rays from a pixel and quickly determine what they intersect and at what depth, in order to render the pixel appropriately. They also use limited precision (both spatially and in colorspace) textures in order to simplify rendering. In other words, it's a highly constrained rendering engine and its the constraints that simplify the problem to the extent that it could be rendered in software at interactive rates on a dumb frame buffer with no Z-buffer support (i.e. a VGA card). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 10:57:23 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:57:23 -0200 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A0CE91B68D442DCAC81E553B5121007@tababook> >> You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by >> the name of "Murf", did you? > Wherever he be, may he be cursed with rotting genitals. Of continental dimensions! > Peace... Sridhar ^^^^^ Ay, yeah! :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 12:10:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F05585.200@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 12:50 PM, Richard wrote: > Some nice pics here with a little narrative: > < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> Wow, some great pics there! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 12:13:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:13:13 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F05639.9000802@neurotica.com> We don't like your wife. ;) -Dave On 01/11/2013 12:53 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" > > I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos > about them." > > She shot me a very threatening look. > > I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." > > On 11 January 2013 17:29, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> For those who might be interested... >>>> >>>> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >>>> Computer. >>>> >>>> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >>>> >>> Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info >>> on OS/9? >> >> That would be great. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jan 11 12:25:23 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:25:23 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > >Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info > >on OS/9? >That would be great. Unfortunately no, primarily because I don't own a Coco 2 or 3 or know anything about OS/9 (-: As of now I'm just sticking the items in my collection (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm) slowly going through them working (roughly) from oldest to newest. It's gonna take a while, but it's a good chance to drag them out, check them out and learn a little more about them. The next one will be on the (or rather my) Epson HX-20. Thanks for the positive comments though. I'm glad people are enjoying them. Terry (Tez) From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jan 11 12:41:49 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:41:49 -0500 Subject: OS/8 RK05 Disk Copy Message-ID: <233bcc4f$6eebe92e$13227ba4$@com> Quick question There are three executables that I know of to copy RK05 disks in OS/8 on a PDP 8/e. RXCOPY RKCOPY RKUTIL Using RKCOPY I was able to generate exact copies of the 0 partition only. Any tips for how to get both partitions to another disk? What's the best utility. I hate to experiment on someone else's disks too much, doing the copy for a fellow MARCH club member. RKA0 --> RKB0 RKA1 --> RKB1 Thanks Bill From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Jan 11 12:49:37 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:49:37 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F05639.9000802@neurotica.com> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> <50F05639.9000802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I know. On 11 January 2013 18:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > > We don't like your wife. ;) > > -Dave > > On 01/11/2013 12:53 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" >> >> I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos >> about them." >> >> She shot me a very threatening look. >> >> I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." >> >> On 11 January 2013 17:29, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>>>> For those who might be interested... >>>>> >>>>> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >>>>> Computer. >>>>> >>>>> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >>>>> >>>> Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info >>>> on OS/9? >>> >>> That would be great. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >> >> >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jan 11 12:49:46 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:49:46 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" > > I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos > about them." > > She shot me a very threatening look. > > I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." LOL!! Funny. Gotta love spouses. (-: I might be slightly closer, even though there is still a whole lot of ocean. I'm in New Zealand. (-: The accents are pretty similar though. According to linguists they are the same dialect, although of course we can tell them apart. Terry (Tez) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 11 12:56:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > Unfortunately no, primarily because I don't own a Coco 2 or 3 or know > anything about OS/9 (-: > Well now you know what you need to add to your collection. :) > Thanks for the positive comments though. I'm glad people are enjoying them. > I think it's neat. I get to see machines I've never been exposed to like the Dick Smith 80. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 12:59:57 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:59:57 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> > My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" > I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos > about them." > She shot me a very threatening look. > I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." Time to upgrade $Wife ($deity, thanks a lot for you keeping me single, owner of my own nose, with my house full of toys and no boring gal to tell me what I can do or what I can have...Thanks a lot!) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:08:16 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:08:16 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Thanks for the positive comments though. I'm glad people are enjoying > them. Sure we are! ;oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 13:29:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:29:30 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> Message-ID: <50F0681A.6070107@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 01:59 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" >> I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos >> about them." >> She shot me a very threatening look. >> I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." > > Time to upgrade $Wife > > ($deity, thanks a lot for you keeping me single, owner of my own > nose, with my house full of toys and no boring gal to tell me what I can > do or what I can have...Thanks a lot!) I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John decent women. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:47:06 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:47:06 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> <50F0681A.6070107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ECBA6D6CC1A481F831F545AC2E442AD@tababook> >>> My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" >>> I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos >>> about them." >>> She shot me a very threatening look. >>> I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." >> Time to upgrade $Wife >> ($deity, thanks a lot for you keeping me single, owner of my own >> nose, with my house full of toys and no boring gal to tell me what I can >> do or what I can have...Thanks a lot!) > I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John > decent women. ;) Please. I like blue eyed blondies. Nothing against reds. Please, at least 1.70 and not too much chubby. How good is to have friends? :oD From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Jan 11 14:24:01 2013 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:24:01 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> Very nice blast from the past!! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 11, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Richard wrote: > Some nice pics here with a little narrative: > < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 11 15:28:50 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:28:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F0681A.6070107@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jan 11, 13 02:29:30 pm" Message-ID: <201301112128.r0BLSoAu21299270@floodgap.com> > I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John > decent women. ;) I have a good idea exactly what kind you'll get from that, too. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural idiocy. -------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 16:25:44 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:25:44 -0700 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> References: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> Message-ID: In article <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90 at machm.org>, Tony Eros writes: > Very nice blast from the past!! Yes, I will be adding these pictures (with permission from Chuck Cranor who took them) to the terminals wiki page for udel terminals. Tony, I sent you a private email regarding the Stardent. Did you get it? If not, please check your spam folder :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 11 17:17:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:17:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <201301112128.r0BLSoAu21299270@floodgap.com> References: <201301112128.r0BLSoAu21299270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20130111151640.Y71687@shell.lmi.net> > I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John > decent women. ;) For those of us who have given up hope, can we get access to the database of the INdecent women? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 11 17:59:40 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:59:40 -0600 Subject: server migration beginning Message-ID: <66A07586-5994-430F-85DB-28F717DB194D@classiccmp.org> Yes, I'm running far far behind schedule with our new datacenter buildout. I'm finally to a point where I can start migrating classiccmp-related stuff. I'll be migrating the classiccmp-related websites that we host first (but not the main classiccmp.org site and subdirectories therein). That will start tonight probably. Anyone who has classiccmp-related websites hosted on classiccmp.org server, please do not make any changes to content over the next few days - that would make it easier on me. Also, while we provide DNS for most of the domains on that server, there are a few there that are using some other dns servers. If that is the case, please make an effort to respond quickly with regards to changes in A records. Several people contacted me a month or two ago about hosting additional classiccmp-related sites. I have those emails in a separate mailbox and will be getting back to each of you after the final classiccmp migration is done. After the websites are moved, but before I get ready to migrate the mailman/list setup, I'll post another update at that point so you're aware of the impending migration. Best, Jay From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 16:50:04 2013 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:50:04 -0500 Subject: LCD display from the 60s Message-ID: Invented by mr Granjean. Well, ok, maybe not LCD, perhaps LAD? http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2013/01/pi-sketch.html I had to do something while I'm waiting on my P112 kit :) Francois -- www.pyptug.org - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 19:21:34 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:21:34 -0500 Subject: Calendar Message-ID: Has anyone seen the Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan Kaufmann"? According to reviews it's rather 'racy'... From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:19:39 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:19:39 -0500 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A few game publishers in the 90's released their source code, so if you are decent at hacking together code or using their level/modding tools, you can just use one of the old engines. Here's a remake of Descent using the original source: http://www.dxx-rebirth.com/ Here are a bunch of different versions of Doom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prboom Here's a review of the Quake II source code, with some cool video of John Carmack's rather insane Intergraph workstation in the 90's: http://fabiensanglard.net/quake2/index.php Here's a whole bunch of games based on old open source game engines, including the gtkRadiant level editor and quake 2: http://icculus.org/ From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jan 11 20:19:52 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:19:52 -0500 Subject: Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B1D74E6-A8C2-47CB-BE77-D5767ED4DE20@jonworld.com> On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:21 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan > Kaufmann After some googling, I found more info here? http://www.nerd-dreams.com/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:25:51 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:25:51 -0800 Subject: Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F0C9AF.1070007@gmail.com> On 1/11/2013 5:21 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Has anyone seen the Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan > Kaufmann"? According to reviews it's rather 'racy'... This ? http://www.nerd-dreams.com/ Doesn't look all that racy or interesting really. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:52:49 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:52:49 +0000 Subject: Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <859662036-1357959168-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-137575661-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Not sure about that specific one. I did get (as a gift .. (I was single and it was a gift to them who didn't want it) until I was in a relationship lol) a "nerd" calendar once that was all nude women on various consoles, etc. Perhaps rhats what you were referring to? Yes it was racy and definitely only single/man cave material. Although my friends and I are all nerdy enough that we were looking past the girl at the game collection on the shelves behind her which was damn impressive. Not something I would have ever spent money on but I don't recall the name or whether it was successful or not. -----Original Message----- From: Murray McCullough Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:21:34 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Calendar Has anyone seen the Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan Kaufmann"? According to reviews it's rather 'racy'... From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 22:34:06 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:34:06 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <002f01cdeff4$521fd910$f65f8b30$@xs4all.nl> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> <002f01cdeff4$521fd910$f65f8b30$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50F0E7BE.5020000@gmail.com> On 1/11/2013 4:08 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > cs for the HP9830. > You can download the HP 9830 service manual at the Australian HPmuseum > website. > Most boards used in the 9865 are the same as in the HP 9830, I know for > sure. > The only boards that differ are the interface logics and the tape drive > board with the head amplifiers on it. Cool. I wasn't aware that the 9830 had a similar cassette drive in it. I've now got the service manual and it looks like it should make tracking down the problem fairly straightforward. I hope. :). > I suppose you looked at the pictures I made from one of mine on flickr, > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/sets/72157630819381098/ > > After you checked the motor drive board, look at the IO card (A61) because > that board contains some 7403 's U1 and U3 which have a tendency to fail. > If this board fails you get errors which seems to point to other components, > so it should be check before you look at other boards. > The manual is very handy when looking for problems, you can find there a > description of all the signals with fault indications. > But also check the interface card, that also can be a pain in the ass (you > should ask Tony friendly if I may send you the diagram of the interface). Thanks. At the moment, it looks like the interface is working properly -- the forward motor spins up OK, it just doesn't get engaged by the solenoid properly. (And other functions under control from the 9810 work OK.) Hopefully it's just the circuit for the solenoid that's at fault. > > You also should look at the LDR from the tape sensor next to the head, they > have a tendency to go to a high resistance > 1k. > The result of that is no fast forward winding because the sensor never > 'detects' the darkening of the tape. That seems to be working OK. It rewinds/forwards slowly until it passes the lead-in and then it speeds up. Thanks! Josh > >> I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing this from > memory) is >> the 09865-66564. There's a little logic and a couple of transistors to > drive the >> solenoids. >> >> I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... > Not likely.. > > -Rik > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 22:37:58 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:37:58 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> On 1/11/2013 12:09 AM, tony duell wrote: > Youy may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is > that my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end > (I think). I am reading this in an internet cafe... Hope your internet connection is restored soon! > >> Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, >> with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the >> 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on >> cleaning up the9865A. > Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of > articles for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you > might find them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course > there's no real way to transfer them at the moment. I'm not, but I suppose at this point I probably should be :). I'd be interested in seeing your articles. I've found a couple of things attributed to you on repairing the printer and the card reader, and I'll be attempting repair of the printer as soon as the cold-shrink tubing I ordered arrives. (Platen is basically tar at this point.) > >> It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- > I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're > size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some point, I'm sure. > >> however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids that >> control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the forward >> direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace down >> the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I thought >> I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've looked in >> the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, aside from >> Tony's notes for the interface. > I believe that some of the boards in the internal tape controller of the > HP9830 are the same (or at least very similar) to those in the > HP9865 -- at least they have 09865-xxxxx part numbers. The > official HP service manual covers the controller to component > level, and of course there are my schematics for the HP9830. > > I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing > this from memory) is the 09865-66564. There's a little > logic and a couple of transistors to drive the solenoids. Cool. I've now got the 9830 service manual and I'll be doing some debugging this weekend. > > I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... I will definitely be checking that. I need to trace the wires back to where they connect to the logic board first. Thanks! - Josh > > -tony > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Jan 12 02:26:26 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1357979186.6130.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > Tom Sparks wrote: >> >> I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is > seen in these books and games (see bellow) >> >> I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling >> what render can create this style? >> > Well, you have a couple of techniques listed there, but it's old skool > vector > graphics which could be done using extremely simple models with large flat > polygons in your modeler. Then render it with a technique called Cell Shading > which a lot of render engines support, simply pick one. > I would like to see cell shading do an image like this http://www.supernintendoclassics.com/wp-content/uploads/StarFoxNoUpres.png --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Jan 12 04:29:37 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:29:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > The books he cited in his list are all books describing how to write > your own engine, not using someone else's, so I gather that he's > thinking of doing things from scratch and not using anyone else's > code. I'm not think of doing it scratch, the books i cited are ones witch I read in the 90's I only have Andr? LaMothe's Black Art of 3D Game Programming (on CD with source code) and Waite Group Press's "Virtual Reality Creations." (no source code) on hand the others i borrowed from a library I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it could be done, without a reference i am looking for object viewer programs that display models at 640x480 > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > > ? ? The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ? The Terminals Wiki > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > PS: I was hopping you would join this thread --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:51:24 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:51:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301121651.LAA04977@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm not think of doing it [from] scratch, > I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it > could be done, without a reference > i am looking for object viewer programs that display models at > 640x480 Quite a while ago I wrote an entirely-in-software renderer, not because I thought the world needed another renderer but because I wanted to understand what was involved. It is unlikely to be directly suitable for your purposes, but you may be able to pull off the X interface I use and put on whatever you need, leaving the basic renderer intact. It's part of a larger collection of code, which you likely don't want. (It's available as a git repo, git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/render, but, as I say, that will also get you a bunch of other stuff you likely don't want.) I've pulled out just the program containing the renderer and put it up for FTP; see ftp.rodents-montreal.org, /mouse/misc/render/ in particular. Note that portability was not particularly a design goal, so it likely depends on one or more aspects of my local environment. If you have trouble building it let me know and I may be able to help, or explain at the very least. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:03:48 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:03:48 +0000 Subject: Lotus Improv In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BCB73B@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BCB73B@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 10 January 2013 18:45, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone remember Lotus Improv? I do, and fondly, too. Very interesting app. > I understand that a version 3.0 was finished, though unreleased, and was a 32-bit application (unlike the final 2.1, which is 16-bit). Anyone know if Improv 3.0 survived? I did not know that and I've never seen or heard of anything of that kind. If it did, though, I'd /love/ to see it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:07:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:07:29 +0000 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10 January 2013 02:46, Richard wrote: > The DOOM FAQ says that the minimum supported environment is a 386sx > with 4MB of RAM and 4.8-12MB disk space. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v7cFGneuaw DOOM on a 128K Spectrum with a disk interface. Of course it could be faked... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 12 11:10:20 2013 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:10:20 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> On 1/10/2013 6:12 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > For those who might be interested... > > Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color Computer. > > http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M > > Terry Stewart (Tez) > That's marvelous, thanks! I've always been a huge fan of the 6809. I've got way too much stuff already, but I'm afraid that if I ever ran onto a CoCo at a garage sale it might follow me home. I've so far successfully resisted buying one on ebay. I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there appeared to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator attached. This makes me wonder if some early models may not have included the integral modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing you how to connect the CoCo while avoiding going through a modulator that was already present for some other device. Come to think of it, the modulator they showed in the sketch looked rather similar to the one for my Atari 2600. -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:22:22 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:22:22 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 9 January 2013 05:12, jim s wrote: > I prefer the "don't panic" Doug Adams button myself. > (?) Do tell... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 12 12:32:11 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:32:11 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: > That's marvelous, thanks! Thanks Charlie, > I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there appeared > to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator attached. This > makes me wonder if some early models may not have included the integral > modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing you how to connect the CoCo > while avoiding going through a modulator that was already present for some > other device. Come to think of it, the modulator they showed in the sketch > looked rather similar to the one for my Atari 2600. I'll have to dig the manual out again when I'm back in the shack but I think the device shown was actually a splitter, allowing the aerial or computer to be connected just by throwing a switch. Terry (tez) From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 12 12:51:24 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:51:24 -0500 Subject: OS/8 RK05 Disk Copy In-Reply-To: <233bcc4f$6eebe92e$13227ba4$@com> References: <233bcc4f$6eebe92e$13227ba4$@com> Message-ID: <20130112185124.GA3545@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 01:41:49PM -0500, B. Degnan wrote: > Quick question > > There are three executables that I know of to copy RK05 disks in OS/8 on a > PDP 8/e. > > RXCOPY > RXCOPY copies floppies > RKCOPY > RKUTIL > > Using RKCOPY I was able to generate exact copies of the 0 partition only. > Any tips for how to get both partitions to another disk? What's the best > utility. I hate to experiment on someone else's disks too much, doing the > copy for a fellow MARCH club member. > RKCOPY works for me (under emulator, only one disk attached to my real machine currently). .R RKCOPY RK8/E DISK COPY PROGRAM V2.1 WHAT DRIVE SHOULD I READ ?0 WHAT DRIVE SHOULD I WRITE ?1 DO YOU WANT TO VERIFY THE COPY ?Y COPYING AND VERIFYING THE COPY... COPY AND VERIFICATION COMPLETE DO YOU WANT ANOTHER COPY ?N .DIR RKA1: .DIR RKB1: New output image is same size as input. Is it aborting with an error on your machine? Used this image and RKCOPY http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/diagpack2.rk05;sort=name From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 12 13:07:28 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:07:28 -0500 Subject: S-100 LAVA PCBs have arrived! Message-ID: <000201cdf0f8$1d6ada30$58408e90$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are about 13 S-100 LAVA PCBs remaining. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm If you would like one or more please contact me. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your board right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 12 13:28:50 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:28:50 -0500 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues In-Reply-To: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> References: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20130112192850.GA6382@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 11:55:47PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > I used to run it on a LAB-8/e using a VR14 monitor, and didn't > observe the problem, but I think the VR14 is pretty slow. > This version online looks like it was fixed. Were you using it? It stuck a clear flags 6050 in also. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/VC8/SPCWR3_vc8i.PA Their is one difference between them that may be wrong. It looks like the new version may have an unwanted line wrap. Above version diff output < -6;-10; -2;-10; 0;-10; 2;-10; 4;-10; 5;-10; 7;-10; -5;-11; -3;-11; -1;-11 --- New version has the second digit of the -11 on the next line. > -6;-10; -2;-10; 0;-10; 2;-10; 4;-10; 5;-10; 7;-10; -5;-11; -3;-11; -1;-1 > 1 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 12 14:36:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 15:36:51 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> On 01/12/2013 12:10 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there > appeared to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator > attached. This makes me wonder if some early models may not have > included the integral modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing > you how to connect the CoCo while avoiding going through a modulator > that was already present for some other device. Come to think of it, > the modulator they showed in the sketch looked rather similar to the one > for my Atari 2600. Unless I'm dramatically misremembering things, the 2600 has no direct video output, and thus cannot make use of an external RF modulator. Perhaps what you're seeing is the switch box? They were all largely similar. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 12 14:49:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:49:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130112124625.S90044@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Unless I'm dramatically misremembering things, the 2600 has no direct > video output, and thus cannot make use of an external RF modulator. > Perhaps what you're seeing is the switch box? They were all largely > similar. Likewise, the original Coco did NOT have an external connector for composite video. If you wanted composite video, you needed to open the case, and solder up an additional connector. The picture(s) in the manuals were of a switchbox, which converted from coax RF to 75-ohm archaic antenna connector. RS made a big deal about using such a switchbox, so that the TV could still be used as a TV, AND so that the computer output never got connected in parallel, providing it with an antenna. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 12 15:11:26 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:11:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/12/2013 12:10 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there >> appeared to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator >> attached. This makes me wonder if some early models may not have >> included the integral modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing >> you how to connect the CoCo while avoiding going through a modulator >> that was already present for some other device. Come to think of it, >> the modulator they showed in the sketch looked rather similar to the one >> for my Atari 2600. > > Unless I'm dramatically misremembering things, the 2600 has no direct video > output, and thus cannot make use of an external RF modulator. Perhaps what > you're seeing is the switch box? They were all largely similar. For what it's worth, there are mods to add composite (and S-video) output to the 2600. I prefer the one from Longhorn Engineer (http://longhornengineer.com/projects/atari-av-mods/) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sjef.van.leeuwen at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:24:57 2013 From: sjef.van.leeuwen at gmail.com (Sjef van Leeuwen) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 03:24:57 +0100 Subject: server migration beginning In-Reply-To: <66A07586-5994-430F-85DB-28F717DB194D@classiccmp.org> References: <66A07586-5994-430F-85DB-28F717DB194D@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: have a smooth migration., On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Jay West wrote: > Yes, I'm running far far behind schedule with our new datacenter buildout. > I'm finally to a point where I can start migrating classiccmp-related stuff. > > I'll be migrating the classiccmp-related websites that we host first (but > not the main classiccmp.org site and subdirectories therein). That will > start tonight probably. > > Anyone who has classiccmp-related websites hosted on classiccmp.orgserver, please do not make any changes to content over the next few days - > that would make it easier on me. Also, while we provide DNS for most of the > domains on that server, there are a few there that are using some other dns > servers. If that is the case, please make an effort to respond quickly with > regards to changes in A records. > > Several people contacted me a month or two ago about hosting additional > classiccmp-related sites. I have those emails in a separate mailbox and > will be getting back to each of you after the final classiccmp migration is > done. > > After the websites are moved, but before I get ready to migrate the > mailman/list setup, I'll post another update at that point so you're aware > of the impending migration. > > Best, > > Jay > > -- Sjef van Leeuwen TCPX | Obliehoren 17 | 2201 VA Noordwijk ZH | The Netherlands Profile Site: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svanleeuwen Tel: +31 6-23967181 (Netherlands) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 12 15:28:02 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:28:02 -0700 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo at web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Tom Sparks writes: > I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it could > be done, without a reference Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to reproduce the technology used back then? If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply using existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 12 15:40:45 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:40:45 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 10 January 2013 02:46, Richard wrote: > > The DOOM FAQ says that the minimum supported environment is a 386sx > > with 4MB of RAM and 4.8-12MB disk space. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v7cFGneuaw > > DOOM on a 128K Spectrum with a disk interface. > > Of course it could be faked... Looks legit. I also notice that they reduced the fidelity of the game considerably in order to make it fit. Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has the ability to produce limited audio.) However, I wouldn't want to be the guy that has to take the DOOM source and recode everything in assembly language in order to make it fit in the machine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Jan 12 16:02:37 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:02:37 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history Message-ID: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> > Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history > Message-ID: > > Some nice pics here with a little narrative: > < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> > This is when I went to the U of D...I remember those Zenith terminals were in most labs. I checked years later, "..any old Dec stuff in storage someplace?" all of this stuff is long gone except for one Dec Line printer II in the kitchenette of the Comp Sci annex building on West Main St. I did get a few little DEC things, here's one: http://vintagecomputer.net/UofDelaware/hyperdiagnostic/ I have a few ethernet cards from the pictured systems with the hard-coded Ethernet addresses. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 12 16:11:12 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:11:12 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> References: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> Message-ID: <50F1DF80.8050309@neurotica.com> On 01/12/2013 05:02 PM, B. Degnan wrote: >> < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> > > This is when I went to the U of D...I remember those Zenith terminals were > in most labs. I checked years later, "..any old Dec stuff in storage > someplace?" all of this stuff is long gone except for one Dec Line printer > II in the kitchenette of the Comp Sci annex building on West Main St. Do you know Ernie Perez, Bob Mader, or Mike Santiago? They all helped me quite a bit by feeding me hardware, distribution tapes, and information when I was in my teen years. Ernie and Bob are in some of those pictures. When I first got my driver license my then-girlfriend and I would drive down to Ernie's place in DE to hack on PDP-11s and watch movies. > I did get a few little DEC things, here's one: > http://vintagecomputer.net/UofDelaware/hyperdiagnostic/ Hey, that's a front panel from a DSD-880! Where's the rest of it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 16:22:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 20:22:14 -0200 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history References: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> <50F1DF80.8050309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <52671E3D4A1F42C592289C2E09E3ED76@tababook> > When I first got my driver license my then-girlfriend and I would > drive down to Ernie's place in DE to hack on PDP-11s and watch movies. Nice time when people could be friends and not be accused of pedophily... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 12 20:43:14 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 21:43:14 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: <52671E3D4A1F42C592289C2E09E3ED76@tababook> References: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> <50F1DF80.8050309@neurotica.com> <52671E3D4A1F42C592289C2E09E3ED76@tababook> Message-ID: <50F21F42.8010301@neurotica.com> On 01/12/2013 05:22 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> When I first got my driver license my then-girlfriend and I would >> drive down to Ernie's place in DE to hack on PDP-11s and watch movies. > > Nice time when people could be friends and not be accused of > pedophily... Yes. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wilson at dbit.com Sat Jan 12 21:49:51 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 22:49:51 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130113034951.GA19736@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 02:40:45PM -0700, Richard wrote: >Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to >that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. Maybe not on the base models, but I always figured a PDP-11 with a VT11 or VSV11 for graphics and any of the ADC and DAC cards for paddles/joysticks and audio would be a kick-ass games system. (One which cost more than a house when it was new, but not a few years later.) John Wilson D Bit From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 23:36:45 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 23:36:45 -0600 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <20130113034951.GA19736@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <20130113034951.GA19736@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: jajajajaja On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 9:49 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 02:40:45PM -0700, Richard wrote: >>Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to >>that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. > > Maybe not on the base models, but I always figured a PDP-11 with a VT11 or > VSV11 for graphics and any of the ADC and DAC cards for paddles/joysticks and > audio would be a kick-ass games system. (One which cost more than a house when > it was new, but not a few years later.) > > John Wilson > D Bit From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 12 23:40:36 2013 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 23:40:36 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <50F248D4.3010703@tx.rr.com> On 1/12/2013 12:32 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> That's marvelous, thanks! > > Thanks Charlie, > >> I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there appeared >> to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator attached. This >> makes me wonder if some early models may not have included the integral >> modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing you how to connect the CoCo >> while avoiding going through a modulator that was already present for some >> other device. Come to think of it, the modulator they showed in the sketch >> looked rather similar to the one for my Atari 2600. > > I'll have to dig the manual out again when I'm back in the shack but I > think the device shown was actually a splitter, allowing the aerial or > computer to be connected just by throwing a switch. > > Terry (tez) > Leverages self out of recliner, and goes and looks at 2600 after reading Dave's, Fred's and David's responses. Sigh - that's what I get for making a comment based on my ever doubtful memory. The small Atari box I had remembered is just an RF switch, as the 2600 outputs a modulated RF signal just as the CoCo does. David Griffith's comment about the mod to give the 2600 the ability to have composite and S-video outputs is an interesting thought. That might be fun to look into some day. -- Later, Charlie C. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 13 03:55:06 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:55:06 +0000 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> , <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > You may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is > > that my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end > > (I think). I am reading this in an internet cafe... > > Hope your internet connection is restored soon! Some chance... It's now been nearly 3 weeks. Demon do not seem to be very helpful or clueful about this :-( > > > > >> Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, > >> with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the > >> 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on > >> cleaning up the9865A. > > Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of > > articles for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you > > might find them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course > > there's no real way to transfer them at the moment. > > I'm not, but I suppose at this point I probably should be :). I'd be Well, the club _officially_ covers the handheld HP calculators (from the original 35 onwards), but there is significant interest in other related machines like HP desktops. > interested in seeing your articles. I've found a couple of things I will see what I can do... > attributed to you on repairing the printer and the card reader, and I'll > be attempting repair of the printer as soon as the cold-shrink tubing I > ordered arrives. (Platen is basically tar at this point.) I do explain this repair in the articles. There are a lot of little bits to remove and refit.... > > > > >> It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- > > I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're > > size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. > > Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, > they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like > everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some > point, I'm sure. That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... > > > > I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... > > I will definitely be checking that. I need to trace the wires back to > where they connect to the logic board first. On the 9830, the tape drive has 4 little 'plugs' (PCBs with pins), one for the motors, one for the optosensor, one for the solenoids/microswitches and one for the preamp PCB. The 9865 may be different. In any case, tracing 2 wires can't be hard :-) If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected between pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. Shouldn't be hard to check. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 08:28:38 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:28:38 +0000 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12 January 2013 21:40, Richard wrote: > Looks legit. I also notice that they reduced the fidelity of the game > considerably in order to make it fit. Indeed. > Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to > that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. Well, fair point, but then again, I was addressing the angle of whether a PDP could possibly have the CPU power & storage needed. I think that vid suggests the answer could be "yes" /on that front./ > The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be > comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has > the ability to produce limited audio.) Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was PDP-compatible? > However, I wouldn't want to be the guy that has to take the DOOM > source and recode everything in assembly language in order to make it > fit in the machine. :?) I find myself quite intrigued by the possibility of a PDP/11 with graphics. That would be something I would quite like to play with. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 13 11:21:01 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 12:21:01 -0500 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/01/13 9:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > ... > An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was PDP-compatible? > BK Elektronika iirc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK --Toby > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 12:58:38 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:58:38 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 12 January 2013 21:40, Richard wrote: > > Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to > > that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. > > Well, fair point, but then again, I was addressing the angle of > whether a PDP could possibly have the CPU power & storage needed. I > think that vid suggests the answer could be "yes" /on that front./ Yes, it does serve as an interesting data point that shows how much DOOM you can cram into a little machine :-). > > The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be > > comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has > > the ability to produce limited audio.) > > Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! I've gotten docs scanned and put up on bitsavers; the memory-mapped registers for the graphics hardware and sound port (basically a PWM analog line connected to the speaker in the monitor) are explained. > An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was > PDP-compatible? That could be another interesting alternative. > I find myself quite intrigued by the possibility of a PDP/11 with > graphics. That would be something I would quite like to play with. A bunch of DEC's early graphics "terminals" were indeed just that. The GT40, GT62, etc., were all machines with a PDP-11 as the graphics controller and a dynamic refresh display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 13 13:30:30 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:30:30 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130113193030.GA560@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 11:58:38AM -0700, Richard wrote: >> > The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be >> > comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has >> > the ability to produce limited audio.) >> >> Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! > >I've gotten docs scanned and put up on bitsavers; the memory-mapped >registers for the graphics hardware and sound port (basically a PWM >analog line connected to the speaker in the monitor) are explained. FWIW, the DOS, Windows, and OS/2 (but not Linux) variants of the latest Ersatz-11 release include emulation of the Terak video (but not audio). Also the QX: floppy (SSSD) but not QB: (soon!). www.dbit.com. The Terak "ALIEN" game (like Space Invaders but sideways) is very much an '80s home computer kind of thing... John Wilson D Bit From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 13:45:48 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:45:48 +0000 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 13 January 2013 17:21, Toby Thain wrote: > On 13/01/13 9:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> ... >> An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was >> PDP-compatible? >> > > BK Elektronika iirc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK That's the bunny. Interesting-sounding machine. I like the idea of an expensive, powerful 1970s minicomputer being shrunk down and metamorphosing into an inexpensive, somewhat-low-powered home micro. It reminds me a little of what I still thought was the creative genius of the original Amstrad PCW range. Just as PC-compatible x86 machines and DOS took over the world, Amstrad created a last, high-spec, highly-integrated, cheap powerful CP/M box: a single unit with CPU, big RAM disk, floppy drive, screen & printer, all in one box, immediately usable straight out of the packaging. I used to wonder why they or someone didn't do the same with a 386 and DOS as Windows rose into the ascendant. When a decent Windows machine with a 486 was still ?1000+, you could have assembled a kick-ass 386-powered DOS box for a quarter of that price. Too similar, I guess. No USP. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:03:43 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:03:43 -0800 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2013, at 10:58 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > >> On 12 January 2013 21:40, Richard wrote: >>> Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to >>> that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. >> >> Well, fair point, but then again, I was addressing the angle of >> whether a PDP could possibly have the CPU power & storage needed. I >> think that vid suggests the answer could be "yes" /on that front./ > > Yes, it does serve as an interesting data point that shows how much > DOOM you can cram into a little machine :-). > >>> The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be >>> comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has >>> the ability to produce limited audio.) >> >> Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! > > I've gotten docs scanned and put up on bitsavers; the memory-mapped > registers for the graphics hardware and sound port (basically a PWM > analog line connected to the speaker in the monitor) are explained. > >> An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was >> PDP-compatible? > > That could be another interesting alternative. > >> I find myself quite intrigued by the possibility of a PDP/11 with >> graphics. That would be something I would quite like to play with. > > A bunch of DEC's early graphics "terminals" were indeed just that. > The GT40, GT62, etc., were all machines with a PDP-11 as the graphics > controller and a dynamic refresh display. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Were there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped framebuffer? On the other hand, the QVAF-512 board does provide a hardware "vector generator" that could be used to provide a fairly speedy wireframe rendering of a DOOM-like game :). - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 13 15:11:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:11:49 -0500 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> On 01/13/2013 04:03 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color > graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think > it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen > updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a > graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is > drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). That sounds like serious fun anyway! > Were > there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped > framebuffer? Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 13 15:15:11 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:15:11 -0500 Subject: N8VEM PCBs remaining Message-ID: <002b01cdf1d3$12e25a30$38a70e90$@YAHOO.COM> Hi There are 11 S-100 LAVA PCBs and 8 XT-IDE V2 PCBs remaining in case anyone is looking for them. Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM for more information. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:15:07 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:15:07 +0000 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 13 January 2013 21:03, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:32:48 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:32:48 -0800 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 13 January 2013 21:03, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). > > Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I > thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. Then prepare to have your mind blown: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm (1978) - Josh > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 13:11:00 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: The PDP-9 will now execute the built-in diagnostic described section 3.7.7.3 of the maintenance manual. This diag copies the contents of the AR register go through the ADR to increment the value, then to the MB register and then back to the AC, AR, and PC registers. This means that much of the I/O bus logic, the CP timing, the registers, the ADR, and the Control Memory is working. Now we need to fix the core memory controller and start debugging the rest of the processor and I/O. -- Michael Thompson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 16:03:57 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:03:57 -0200 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7EF4713FC99A4963AC9441C28D7BECB1@tababook> > Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I > thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. MeToo? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 13 16:16:58 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:16:58 +0000 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F3325A.3000700@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/01/2013 21:32, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I >> thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. I was about to reply when I read Josh's response... > Then prepare to have your mind blown: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm ...because I have a pair of those, and at least one other model. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Jan 13 16:29:24 2013 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:29:24 -0600 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F33544.3080703@ubanproductions.com> Very cool! There was a PDP-9 at Purdue University back in the day. What is the origin of the machine which is being restored at the RICM? On 1/13/13 1:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The PDP-9 will now execute the built-in diagnostic described section > 3.7.7.3 of the maintenance manual. This diag copies the contents of > the AR register go through the ADR to increment the value, then to the > MB register and then back to the AC, AR, and PC registers. This means > that much of the I/O bus logic, the CP timing, the registers, the ADR, > and the Control Memory is working. Now we need to fix the core memory > controller and start debugging the rest of the processor and I/O. > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 16:33:38 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:33:38 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 1:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/13/2013 04:03 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color >> graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think >> it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen >> updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a >> graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is >> drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). > > That sounds like serious fun anyway! Yeah. I need to do some un-modification to the boards before they'll work properly. They were modified for use at the University of Rochester for capturing images of some sort of laser application (the QRGB-GRAPH does frame grabbing as well as display) and seeing as how I'm unlikely to own such a laser at any point in the future, it's not of much use as is :). Fortunately I have the specs for the modifications so it should be easy to undo (or redo if I do come across a high-powered laser I need to take photos of.). > >> Were >> there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped >> framebuffer? > > Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses > DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. Cool. And I misspoke -- the QRGB-GRAPH does support DMA, so it might be fast enough for DOOM after all :). - Josh > > -Dave > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 17:20:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:20:07 -0200 Subject: DOOM References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F3325A.3000700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <6D5795504ECA477CA4ED1DB6E42B241D@tababook> >>> Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I >>> thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. >> Then prepare to have your mind blown: >> http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm Very interesting...There are companies that are so old, and we don't know/remember. It is always interesting to see where they came from, what were their first products, and so on... From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 18:07:46 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:07:46 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> , <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 1:55 AM, tony duell wrote: >>>> It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- >>> I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're >>> size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. >> Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, >> they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like >> everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some >> point, I'm sure. > That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... I've ordered some replacements along with some O-rings for the mag card reader. >>> I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... >> I will definitely be checking that. I need to trace the wires back to >> where they connect to the logic board first. > On the 9830, the tape drive has 4 little 'plugs' (PCBs with pins), one for the motors, > one for the optosensor, one for the solenoids/microswitches and one for the > preamp PCB. The 9865 may be different. In any case, tracing 2 wires can't > be hard :-) Nope, just hadn't taken the time to do it yet :). > > If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected between > pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. Shouldn't > be hard to check. Spent some time debugging last night and narrowed it down to a faulty transistor (Q8 on the schematic, for those keeping score at home). I've ordered a replacement and hopefully that'll get everything humming again. Thanks again for the help, Josh > > -tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 13 18:24:50 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:24:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." Message-ID: <201301140024.r0E0OoBv31195154@floodgap.com> Okay, VAX heads. I got an external SCSI cable for my VAXstation 3100 M76 and connected it to my old Apple SCSI CD-ROM that boots pretty much anything in my collection (Apple, SGI, you name it). At the chevron prompt, >>> b/r5:10000000 dkb500: -DKB500 [...] OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 [...] PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:14 [...] %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. It just sits there. So I tried it without the /r5 bit: >>> b dkb500: -DKB500 [...] OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 [...] PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:20 Configuring devices . . . Available device: DKB500: device type SONY CD-ROM CDU-8 Available device: DKA0: device type RZ26 %BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V7.2; the date is 13-JAN-2013 16:21:06.64 $ So far so good. $ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DKB500:VMS073.B/SAVE_SET DKA0: %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, SABKUP$DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. And sits there again. What am I doing wrong? (Don't say use another CD-ROM drive; this one works perfectly with every other computer I've used it with. And why would it boot from it but not install from it?) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Twenty-four hours in a day, twenty-four cans in a Pepsi cube. Coincidence? - From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 18:47:04 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:47:04 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Josh Dersch writes: > I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color > graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. [...] If you ever lose interest in them, they'd be a good addition to the Computer Graphics Museum. I have several Qbus machines that could house the boards. > [...] Were there any PDP-11 > graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped framebuffer? The Terak is setup this way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 19:16:26 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:16:26 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <50F33642.5070405 at gmail.com>, Josh Dersch writes: > On 1/13/2013 1:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Were > >> there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped > >> framebuffer? > > > > Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses > > DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. > > Cool. And I misspoke -- the QRGB-GRAPH does support DMA, so it might be > fast enough for DOOM after all :). See However, DMA != memory-mapped. Memory-mapped means the pixel changes as soon as I diddle the bits and the next refresh cycle comes around. Memory-mapped means the CPU can determine the contents of a pixel by reading a memory location. DMA means a chunk of host memory can be transmitted to the device while the CPU is doing some other task. The AED 512/617/1024 can interface to a host machine by means of a parallel interface with DMA capability. While this is certainly faster than using a serial interface and an ASCII command stream, it is by no means as fast as a memory-mapped display. There is no abaility for the AED to send data back to the host over the DMA interface, it is unidirectional. The above PDF says the bandwidth is 3 MB/s across the DMA interface. At 800x600 256 color VGA mode, refreshed at 30 Hz, DOOM uses: 800*600*30/1024/1024 = 13 MB/sec I believe DOOM actually goes at 60 Hz, not 30, so it's even worse. However, 30 Hz is generally considered the minimum for interactive real-time graphics. Assuming using the maximum 3 MB/sec bandwidth of the AED and 4 bits/pixel instead of 8, gives you enough bandwidth to do 512x384 (4:3 aspect ratio). The AED actually stores 8bpp, so I'd have to dig further into the docs to see if you could transmit 4bpp and have it locally expand that to 8; you probably can with some downloaded microcode (i.e. 6502 assembly language). That's a calculation based purely on the DMA speed listed in the document, you'd have to do an actual end-to-end analysis to see how fast you could update the AEd from a Qbus PDP-11; the DMA transfer rate may not be the limiting factor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 13 19:51:24 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:51:24 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/01/13 8:16 PM, Richard wrote: > ...you'd have to do an actual end-to-end analysis to see > how fast you could update the AEd from a Qbus PDP-11; the DMA transfer > rate may not be the limiting factor. You'd have to halve the rate in any case since the CPU would take an equal amount of time doing memory cycles to update it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the frame *computation* would be concurrent with the DMA but updates from the CPU would be sharing the bus, interleaved with individual DMA cycles, and you couldn't feasibly do block DMA (because of that concurrency). It seems to me this isn't a very natural fit for DMA? --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 13 19:52:32 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:52:32 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> On 1/13/13 1:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. > The spinoff QBus products from Jupiter Systems or Parallax Graphics would probably work. Frame buffer access in the AED wasn't very fast. Digging around, I'm not seeing much of any info on Parallax on the web. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 13 20:16:01 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:16:01 -0500 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F36A61.1090009@compsys.to> >Josh Dersch wrote: >I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Were there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped framebuffer? > Do you have a manual for the QRGB-GRAPH board. I think I sent a copy to Al a while back when I could not find it on bitsavers, but perhaps not. By the way, Matrox is probably over 40 years old and is located near Montreal, Quebec. They originally made graphics cards for systems like the PDP-11, but dropped them long ago when the demand dried up. Jerome Fine From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 20:20:10 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:20:10 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I think it's rather nifty. If it *is* designed to the original spec, it probably took a lot of work. It also seems fairly sturdily made - two pounds at 13"x5"x1". Look up Adam Savage's work trying to make a perfect replica of the Maltese Falcon from the film. It took him years to even get close, and he's a professional model maker with connections in Hollywood. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 13 20:30:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:30:15 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50F36DB7.5010100@neurotica.com> On 01/13/2013 09:20 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I think it's rather nifty. If it *is* designed to the original spec, it > probably took a lot of work. It also seems fairly sturdily made - two > pounds at 13"x5"x1". Look up Adam Savage's work trying to make a perfect > replica of the Maltese Falcon from the film. It took him years to even get > close, and he's a professional model maker with connections in Hollywood. Sounds to me like people gettin' paid by the hour. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 21:15:05 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:15:05 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50F364E0.4050307 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The spinoff QBus products from Jupiter Systems or Parallax Graphics would > probably work. Frame buffer access in the AED wasn't very fast. I have a Jupiter Systems terminal in the collection. > Digging around, I'm not seeing much of any info on Parallax on the web. I didn't get any manuals, so information on programming would be most appreciated. Otherwise I'm going to have to dump the ROMs and reverse engineer the code. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 21:26:27 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:26:27 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F37AE3.8020002@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 5:16 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <50F33642.5070405 at gmail.com>, > Josh Dersch writes: > he standard RS232 port. >> Cool. And I misspoke -- the QRGB-GRAPH does support DMA, so it might be >> fast enough for DOOM after all :). > See > > > However, DMA != memory-mapped. Sure, never meant to imply that the two were equal, just that it had an interface significantly faster than manually pushing each pixel. > > Memory-mapped means the pixel changes as soon as I diddle the bits and > the next refresh cycle comes around. Memory-mapped means the CPU can > determine the contents of a pixel by reading a memory location. > > DMA means a chunk of host memory can be transmitted to the device > while the CPU is doing some other task. The AED 512/617/1024 can > interface to a host machine by means of a parallel interface with DMA > capability. While this is certainly faster than using a serial > interface and an ASCII command stream, it is by no means as fast as a > memory-mapped display. There is no abaility for the AED to send data > back to the host over the DMA interface, it is unidirectional. The > above PDF says the bandwidth is 3 MB/s across the DMA interface. > > At 800x600 256 color VGA mode, refreshed at 30 Hz, DOOM uses: > > 800*600*30/1024/1024 = 13 MB/sec > > I believe DOOM actually goes at 60 Hz, not 30, so it's even worse. > However, 30 Hz is generally considered the minimum for interactive > real-time graphics. I think the original DOOM was limited to 35fps no matter what. > > Assuming using the maximum 3 MB/sec bandwidth of the AED and 4 bits/pixel > instead of 8, gives you enough bandwidth to do 512x384 (4:3 aspect ratio). > The AED actually stores 8bpp, so I'd have to dig further into the docs > to see if you could transmit 4bpp and have it locally expand that to > 8; you probably can with some downloaded microcode (i.e. 6502 assembly > language). That's a calculation based purely on the DMA speed listed > in the document, you'd have to do an actual end-to-end analysis to see > how fast you could update the AEd from a Qbus PDP-11; the DMA transfer > rate may not be the limiting factor. I'd expect any implementation to run in a postcard-sized area (much like you'd do with Doom on a 386sx-16 back in the day). Pushing an 800x600 display wasn't something I'd even considered, and I don't think I'd ever expect such a beast to run at anywhere near 30fps (much like the 386). A 256x256 window at 8bpp at 15fps is ~1mb/sec. That's still a fair amount of time just spent pushing pixels, though so it's probably still not feasible. - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 21:59:21 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:59:21 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F36A61.1090009@compsys.to> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F36A61.1090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50F38299.60206@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 6:16 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color >> graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think >> it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen >> updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a >> graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is >> drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Were >> there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped >> framebuffer? >> > Do you have a manual for the QRGB-GRAPH board. I think > I sent a copy to Al a while back when I could not find it on > bitsavers, but perhaps not. Looks like it's here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/matrox/ I do have the manual sets for these, including the QVAF-512 which does not appear to be on bitsavers. I also have a pile of floppies that I need to archive, though I think they are mostly the custom software that U of Rochester used for their laser system. - Josh > > By the way, Matrox is probably over 40 years old and is located > near Montreal, Quebec. They originally made graphics cards > for systems like the PDP-11, but dropped them long ago when > the demand dried up. > > Jerome Fine > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 13 22:52:39 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:52:39 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50F38F17.1040809@bitsavers.org> On 1/13/13 7:15 PM, Richard wrote: > I have a Jupiter Systems terminal in the collection. > > > I didn't get any manuals, so information on programming would be most > appreciated. Otherwise I'm going to have to dump the ROMs and reverse > engineer the code. > A Jupiter 7 is very similar to the AED 767 Jupiter is still in business, BTW. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 23:15:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:15:14 -0200 Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." References: <201301140024.r0E0OoBv31195154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <95E03E39E135496BB9BA212DCF772ABD@tababook> I have no VAX whatsoever experience to help, but have you tried that famous jumper that changes from 2048 to 512 bytes/sector? Usually helps :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:24 PM Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." > Okay, VAX heads. I got an external SCSI cable for my VAXstation 3100 M76 > and > connected it to my old Apple SCSI CD-ROM that boots pretty much anything > in > my collection (Apple, SGI, you name it). At the chevron prompt, > >>>> b/r5:10000000 dkb500: > > -DKB500 > [...] > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 > [...] > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:14 > [...] > %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. > > It just sits there. So I tried it without the /r5 bit: > >>>> b dkb500: > > -DKB500 > [...] > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 > [...] > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:20 > > Configuring devices . . . > > Available device: DKB500: device type SONY CD-ROM > CDU-8 > > Available device: DKA0: device type RZ26 > %BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V7.2; the date is 13-JAN-2013 > 16:21:06.64 > $ > > So far so good. > > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DKB500:VMS073.B/SAVE_SET DKA0: > %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, SABKUP$DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in > progress. > > And sits there again. What am I doing wrong? (Don't say use another CD-ROM > drive; this one works perfectly with every other computer I've used it > with. > And why would it boot from it but not install from it?) > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Twenty-four hours in a day, twenty-four cans in a Pepsi cube. > Coincidence? - From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 13 23:39:53 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:39:53 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F39A29.3020201@brouhaha.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I > thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. Josh Dersch wrote: > Then prepare to have your mind blown: > http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm That page says "This was the board that launched the Matrox company.", and the Matrox web site says the same thing, but both are wrong. (I wonder whether the Matrox people copied a web source for their own history?) AFAIK, the first Matrox product was the MTX-1632, introduced in 1976, about two years before the ALT-256. It's a 16 line by 32 character display module with a generic interface rather than a specific bus such as S-100. There's a blurb in the "What's New?" column of the October 1976 byte, on page 89. Matrox announced a number of other generic text and graphic display modules prior to introducing any S-100 products. I just corrected a false claim on the Matrox Wikipedia stating that the ALT-256 used a "racing the beam" technique similar to the Atari 2600. It actually had an entirely conventional 8KB frame buffer. Whoever wrote that may have been confused because the frame buffer isn't memory-mapped, but is instead written using a set of four output ports and one input port for status. An 8080 (or even a Z80) at that time was not fast enough to "race the beam" at a 256 pixel-per-line resolution. Other interesting early Matrox products were the MTX-A1 and MBX-B1 display/keyboard controller chips. They were 40-pin NMOS chips. I think they may have been mask-programmed Intel 8041 UPI chips, but I haven't found data sheets on them for comparison. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 00:26:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:26:25 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F38F17.1040809@bitsavers.org> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> <50F38F17.1040809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50F38F17.1040809 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 1/13/13 7:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > > I have a Jupiter Systems terminal in the collection. > > > > > > > I didn't get any manuals, so information on programming would be most > > appreciated. Otherwise I'm going to have to dump the ROMs and reverse > > engineer the code. > > > > A Jupiter 7 is very similar to the AED 767 > > Jupiter is still in business, BTW. My experience is that when I contact companies asking about distant legacy products, they never bother to return my email. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 14 01:15:49 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 02:15:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...]; the DMA transfer rate may not be the limiting factor. > You'd have to halve the rate in any case since the CPU would take an > equal amount of time doing memory cycles to update it? Maybe. Depends on what limits "the DMA transfer rate". In general, it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that DMA out of memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory unless they are accessing locations too close to one another (eg, the same 32-bit line of memory). Also possible is that the memory bus is enough faster than both the DMA path and the CPU path that, while they can collide over it, it can sustain both data streams at once without trouble. I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether either of those is true of any of them, though. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 02:11:37 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:11:37 +0000 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> , <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> , <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > >> Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, > >> they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like > >> everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some > >> point, I'm sure. > > That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... > > I've ordered some replacements along with some O-rings for the mag card > reader. What are you doing about the card reader? My repair involves machining a new roller hub from brass rod. It works, but you need a small lathe to do it. At least with the cassette drive, O-rings were the original 'tyres' so you don't have to modify any parts to fit new ones. > > If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected between > > pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. Shouldn't > > be hard to check. > > Spent some time debugging last night and narrowed it down to a faulty > transistor (Q8 on the schematic, for those keeping score at home). I've > ordered a replacement and hopefully that'll get everything humming again. > I assume (without checking the schematics) that's one of the solenoid drivers. I looked at the schematic the other day and noticed that if the motor is running correctly (so the motor switching transistor is being driven), the only things that can cause the solenoid not to work are the driver transistor or the solenoid itself. I have tried to send you the Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles. Let me know if there are any problems. -tony From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Jan 14 03:48:24 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 01:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics References: Message-ID: <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- In article <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo at web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Tom Sparks writes: >I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it could >be done, without a reference sorry reference [1] >? Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to > reproduce the technology used back then? I just want to reproduce the look i've found a program called REND386 v5[2] (DOS based) it dose not support texture mapping and only works @ 320x200 (mode 13h) but it can load in PLG files[3] its a start in the right direction for my model I am looking at doing * Isometric projection * objectvr[4] * at a later date I may use webgl > If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply using > existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. its not that easy as it seams a lot of the styling needs to be done using a Shading Language witch is only support on some newer graphics cards >-- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum >The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) [1] https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1206/msg00162.html [2] http://www.cob.unt.edu/slides/VEDDER/Temp/AI/REND386/ best to download with a website reaper [3] http://paulbourke.net/dataformats/plg/ note: the FIG and WLD information is out of date [4] http://gardengnomesoftware.com/object2vr_example.php?demo=multires --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks? From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Jan 14 04:10:25 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358158225.2195.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hey Michael, that's fantastic !!! A team at the ACONIT-museum in Grenoble (France) did a great job and restored a PDP-9 a couple of years ago. Hans Pufal was part of that team. When I visited the museum, he told me that the machine broke down again. I wonder what the status of that system is, currently, and what Hans has become. Haven't heard anything from/about him for a very long while. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > Von: Michael Thompson > An: cctech > CC: > Gesendet: 20:11 Sonntag, 13.Januar 2013 > Betreff: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM > >T he PDP-9 will now execute the built-in diagnostic described section > 3.7.7.3 of the maintenance manual. This diag copies the contents of > the AR register go through the ADR to increment the value, then to the > MB register and then back to the AC, AR, and PC registers. This means > that much of the I/O bus logic, the CP timing, the registers, the ADR, > and the Control Memory is working. Now we need to fix the core memory > controller and start debugging the rest of the processor and I/O. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 07:49:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:49:09 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 2:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> [...]; the DMA transfer rate may not be the limiting factor. >> You'd have to halve the rate in any case since the CPU would take an >> equal amount of time doing memory cycles to update it? > > Maybe. Depends on what limits "the DMA transfer rate". In general, > it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that DMA out of > memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory unless they are > accessing locations too close to one another (eg, the same 32-bit line Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises the bus. Admittedly it's a few years since I studied Qbus in detail. Maybe I'll go hit the books again. I still have hope of making bus cycles from an FPGA. --Toby > of memory). Also possible is that the memory bus is enough faster than > both the DMA path and the CPU path that, while they can collide over > it, it can sustain both data streams at once without trouble. > > I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether either > of those is true of any of them, though. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 14 10:31:23 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:31:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> In general, it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that >> DMA out of memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory >> unless they are accessing locations too close to one another (eg, >> the same 32-bit line [...] > Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises > the bus. I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >> I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether >> either of those is true of any of them, though. Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 10:42:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:42:58 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 11:31 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> In general, it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that >>> DMA out of memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory >>> unless they are accessing locations too close to one another (eg, >>> the same 32-bit line [...] >> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >> the bus. > > I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, > >>> I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether >>> either of those is true of any of them, though. > > Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on > the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) And several PDP-11 CPU cards have onboard memory. The ones that use PMI don't (AFAIK) generate Qbus cycles for memory access. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 11:18:14 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:18:14 -0700 Subject: Contacting Tony Eros (was: University of Delaware EE department machine history) In-Reply-To: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> References: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> Message-ID: Sorry to bug the list with this, but it appears somewhere along the way my email to Tony is being discarded/filtered. Tony: I sent you a 2nd followup mail, but didn't see a reply; did you get it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 11:33:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:33:42 -0700 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo at web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Tom Sparks writes: > > Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to > > reproduce the technology used back then? > I just want to reproduce the look OK, then you need to decide which "look" you want to reproduce. Are you specifically trying to reproduce the visual look from REND386, or just using that as a reference point? > for my model I am looking at doing > * Isometric projection This is trivial. > * objectvr[4] This is also trivial. From looking at the URL you gave for [4], it's just picture flipping a bunch of pictures taken at different viewpoints relative to the object. You don't even need a graphics card for this, it's just picture flipping. > * at a later date I may use webgl Why webgl, are you trying to make something that is browser based? > > If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply using > > existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. > its not that easy as it seams a lot of the styling needs to be done using a > Shading Language > witch is only support on some newer graphics cards Shader based graphics cards are the norm for the past decade, so hardly only available on "newer" graphics cards. OGL even provides a software fallback. However, don't assume that because people are showing you how to do something in a shader that the only way to do it is in a shader. The last generation of fixed-function pipeline cards (i.e. 10+ year old cards) were capable of a variety of effects if you were creative in how you use the hardware. I would agree that it's simpler to develop the effect now with a shader than to try and figure out complex multitexture fixed-function effects. If you get something like ATI's RenderMonkey or NVidia's FX Composer, you can evaluate the shaders interactively on a model without having to do edit-compile-test cycles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 14 12:02:00 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:02:00 +0000 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>> the bus. >> >> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, Mouse is right. >> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on >> the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? > > Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) Except for 11/84 and 11/94 ;-) 11/53 and 11/93 (and /94) have memory on the CPU but can also access QBus and PMI memory. QBus devices can access that as if it were on a separate card. > And several PDP-11 CPU cards > have onboard memory. The ones that use PMI don't (AFAIK) generate Qbus > cycles for memory access. Yes, they do. PMI just adds some extra control signals which are passed over the CD interconnect. Several normal QBus control signals are also used, as of course are the BDAL lines. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 12:30:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:30:42 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 01:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on >>> the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? >> >> Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) > > Except for 11/84 and 11/94 ;-) > > 11/53 and 11/93 (and /94) have memory on the CPU but can also access > QBus and PMI memory. QBus devices can access that as if it were on a > separate card. I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus PDP11. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Jan 14 13:26:23 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:26:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Jumper settings / docs on AVIV qbus card needed Message-ID: <1358191583.65926.YahooMailNeo@web133103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Dear community, I dropped over an AVIV card (model number 50-860), which seem to be a qbus tape-controller for drives with GCR-encoding. Two 50pin pin connectors typically used for PERTEC-systems are sitting on the front. Except for thirdy or so shops, google does not show up anything about this board. Bitsavers does not contain any AVIV-related documents, either. Does anybody have docs or at least jumper specifications of this board? That would be of great help in order to make use of it ! Kind regards and thanks in advance, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 14 13:28:21 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:28:21 +0000 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F45C55.4070901@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/01/2013 18:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/14/2013 01:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on >>>> the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? >>> >>> Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) >> >> Except for 11/84 and 11/94 ;-) >> >> 11/53 and 11/93 (and /94) have memory on the CPU but can also access >> QBus and PMI memory. QBus devices can access that as if it were on a >> separate card. > > I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus > PDP11. ;) I'm pretty sure we can agree on that :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 14:08:40 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:08:40 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software Message-ID: I'm collecting together all the X terminal software (servers, configuration files, manuals, etc). I have this old snapshot of the FTP site for ncd.com: I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X terminals from: - DEC - HP - Tektronix If anyone can help me collect this together into one place, that would be great. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 14 14:47:16 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:47:16 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> References: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130114204716.GA16351@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 01:30:42PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus >PDP11. ;) Nah it's more than that -- it's a hilarious joke for screwing with the minds of I/O drivers, which detect the UMRs and think they're on a mapped system but then it turns out that RH70s aren't the only thing using unmapped DMA, but there's no sure way to know what's Q and what's U. Fun for all concerned! :-) John Wilson D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 14:52:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:52:35 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <20130114204716.GA16351@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> <20130114204716.GA16351@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50F47013.6050607@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 03:47 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus >> PDP11. ;) > > Nah it's more than that -- it's a hilarious joke for screwing with the minds > of I/O drivers, which detect the UMRs and think they're on a mapped system > but then it turns out that RH70s aren't the only thing using unmapped DMA, > but there's no sure way to know what's Q and what's U. > > Fun for all concerned! :-) Yee-HAW! Err somethin'. ;) That's ok. I love my 11/84s anyway. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 15:30:32 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:30:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Richard wrote: > I'm collecting together all the X terminal software (servers, configuration > files, manuals, etc). I have this old snapshot of the FTP site for > ncd.com: > > > > I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X > terminals from: > > - DEC > - HP I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 15:15:53 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:15:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D78DAC.6090705@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 23, 12 03:03:08 pm Message-ID: My home intenrnet connection seems to be back for the momnet.... > > Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although > > nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My > > 16C lives on my electornics workbench. > > If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. I am not clever enough to use a non-stack-based calcualtor, so it virtually has ot be an HP in my case. The 16C has all the functions I need on the electronics bench, line ANDs, ORs, rotates, etc. > However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this > never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. That certainly applies to the HP16C... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 15:19:33 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:19:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D78E2F.90508@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 23, 12 06:05:19 pm Message-ID: > > And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal > > swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-) > > Gads, man! Take better care of those HPs! They don't grow on trees, > and prices have gone through the roof. :-( THey're HPs... They don't seem to mind :-) Mote seriously, I do look adter my old HPS. Darn it, I write the repair instructions fo HP desktop machines so they can be kept going. But also I sue them. And the older HPs, with goid-plated keyboard contacts, dual-shot-moulded keycaps, and the like do not seem to me the odd splash of cutting oil. More modern HMs with membran keyboards (like your 28) probably don't last as well... > > (my beloved 28S just lost functionality in a few of its keys...) I bought the first 28C I saw. I stopped using it when the HP48 came out (yes, I bought hte firsto ne of those I saw too). The reason was that the 28 didn't ahve any way to back up your programws. The 48 has a serial port and kermit. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 15:52:43 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:52:43 -0600 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <50D78DAC.6090705@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 23, 12 03:03:08 pm Message-ID: <00ad01cdf2a1$7b7230b0$72569210$@com> > However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this > never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. That certainly applies to the HP16C... -tony HP16C on ebay http://www.ebay.com/ctg/HP-16C-Scientific-Calculator-/92889141 $250 HP 12C on ebay http://compare.ebay.com/like/160941451346?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes &var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y&bigimg=y starting at $29 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 16:06:51 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:06:51 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale Message-ID: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ 25 cents each, can anybody use these? Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 16:11:02 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:11:02 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software > I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and > see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably > my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). Great! I have a list of these HDS terminals to add to the terminals wiki: HDS Viewstation TR HDS Viewstation FX HDS Viewstation FX HDS ViewStation FX HDS ViewStation+ HDS ViewStation HDS 2200GX These are already on the wiki: But none of those are X Terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:14:56 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:14:56 -0800 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Richard wrote: > > I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X > terminals from: > > - DEC > - HP > - Tektronix ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver The OpenVMS freeware InfoServer software file infoserver.zip contains the CD-ROM image file VTX Software V2.1, InfoServer/VMS, ag-pjjhh-be.img I believe that contains the software for the VT1000 (VXT1000), VT1200 (VXT1200), VT1300 (VXT1300), and the VXT2000 and VXT2000+ series. That's what I used to get my VXT2000 running. -Glen From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 14 16:21:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:21:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> Message-ID: <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? ________________________________ From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ 25 cents each, can anybody use these? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:23:11 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:23:11 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software >> I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and >> see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably >> my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). > > Great! > > I have a list of these HDS terminals to add to the terminals wiki: > HDS Viewstation... I think I have either a ViewStation or ViewStation+ Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository (as indexed by several FTP search engines) at ftp//ftp.psc.edu/tftp/hds/, but that appears to be gone now. Anyone get a mirror of that when it was up? -ethan From jonathan at pueblo.co.uk Mon Jan 14 16:23:34 2013 From: jonathan at pueblo.co.uk (Jonathan Casiot) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:23:34 +0000 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> On 14/01/2013 21:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Richard wrote: >> I'm collecting together all the X terminal software (servers, configuration >> files, manuals, etc). I have this old snapshot of the FTP site for >> ncd.com: >> >> >> >> I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X >> terminals from: >> >> - DEC >> - HP > > I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software > I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and > see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably > my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). > > -ethan > I'm running an HP Entria II from a CentOS box. Links to downloads of Netstation 7.1 and 9.0 can be found in this post: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-April/132126.html -- Jonathan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:26:56 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:26:56 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? I don't need thousands of them, but I really could use a handful for an existing LCD panel that presently has a OTP chip with AT&T firmware that needs to be replaced. That's presuming they are pin-compatible with the AT39F512. I don't care about in-circuit reprogrammability (which is a likely difference between the AT39 and AT49-series chips). I'd be programming these in a desktop programmer and installing them. What's the smallest quantity you'd consider shipping? -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 16:35:13 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:35:13 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 pcs is the minimum order. General purpose flash memory. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? ________________________________ From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ 25 cents each, can anybody use these? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 16:35:24 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:35:24 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50F4882C.8080005@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 05:21 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* > (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing > around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. > Applicable? Oh, I'd love to have a few hundred of those. I'd use 'em for *everything*. I have no need for 187,200 of them, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 16:44:02 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:44:02 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X > > terminals from: > > > > - DEC > > - HP > > - Tektronix > > ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver > > The OpenVMS freeware InfoServer software file infoserver.zip contains > the CD-ROM image file VTX Software V2.1, InfoServer/VMS, > ag-pjjhh-be.img > > I believe that contains the software for the VT1000 (VXT1000), VT1200 > (VXT1200), VT1300 (VXT1300), and the VXT2000 and VXT2000+ series. > That's what I used to get my VXT2000 running. Sweet! Got that copied over. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bryan.pope at comcast.net Mon Jan 14 17:01:01 2013 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:01:01 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> Message-ID: <50F48E2D.4020408@comcast.net> The description says "on trays and in sealed packages of 156 pieces" and "a total of 1,200 packages". Doesn't this mean that the minimum would be 156 pieces? Also 156 x 1200 = 187,200 which is what you say the total number of pieces is. So then 156 pieces would be $39.00 (156 x $0.25). Cheers, Bryan P.S. If you were to buy 1200 pcs then you would get 7.69 trays. Unless you expect to sell all 1,200 trays at once. On 1/14/2013 5:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 pcs is > the minimum order. > General purpose flash memory. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale > > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though > it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a > homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 17:04:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:04:25 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository [...] Yeah, that's why I'm collecting this in one place. It seems like X terminals would still be usable these days and unlike a PC they often have no noisy fan. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 17:06:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:06:46 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> Message-ID: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning of Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? -Dave On 01/14/2013 05:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 pcs is > the minimum order. > General purpose flash memory. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale > > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though > it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a > homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 17:26:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:26:25 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> References: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <50F48566.8060200 at pueblo.co.uk>, Jonathan Casiot writes: > Links to downloads of Netstation 7.1 and 9.0 can be found in this post: > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-April/132126.html Got the 9.0, but the 7.1 link appears dead? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 17:27:45 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:27:45 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository [...] > > Yeah, that's why I'm collecting this in one place. I was able to scrape a list of what files _were_ there from the links from one of the index sites. That list would at least be handy to see if anything is missing/different from any version that eventually turns up (including the repo I probably still have). > It seems like X terminals would still be usable these days and unlike > a PC they often have no noisy fan. I remember playing with my HDS Viewstation as a terminal to my SPARC5 when I used that every day at home (quite some time ago) and I do remember that not everything I ran worked perfectly (Netscape gave me some fits, IIRC). It was fine for opening up scads of Xterms, but I think I occasionally ran into an application that was newer than the version of X on the HDS and something wasn't quite right (possibly related to available fonts, now that I'm thinking about it). Something I'd like to try now is HDS + LCD (since it was definitely HDS + CRT last time). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 17:39:01 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:39:01 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F49715.2050108@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 06:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository [...] >> >> Yeah, that's why I'm collecting this in one place. > > I was able to scrape a list of what files _were_ there from the links > from one of the index sites. Try The Wayback Machine, maybe? It has saved my butt a few times. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 14 17:39:56 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:39:56 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F4974C.3000905@jbrain.com> On 1/14/2013 5:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning of > Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? Assuming one does not need to buy the entire 1200 tray lot, I am happy to buy 5000 - 10000 and sell off by tray for those interested. I use similar at49F001 for my EPROM eliminators, and I just used my last tray of ICs for the last manufacturing order. Jim From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Mon Jan 14 17:47:12 2013 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:47:12 -0700 Subject: HP 12c References: Message-ID: In case some may noy know, there is the HP16C Emulator: http://www.hp16c.net/ "The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista and Win 7. " Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 02:15 PM Subject: Re: HP 12c > My home intenrnet connection seems to be back for the momnet.... > >> > Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although >> > nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. >> > My >> > 16C lives on my electornics workbench. >> >> If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. > > I am not clever enough to use a non-stack-based calcualtor, so it > virtually has ot be an HP in my case. The 16C has all the functions I > need on the electronics bench, line ANDs, ORs, rotates, etc. > > >> However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this >> never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. > > That certainly applies to the HP16C... > > -tony > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 18:20:41 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:20:41 -0800 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2013 3:29 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > Links to downloads of Netstation 7.1 and 9.0 can be found in this post: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-April/132126.html > > Got the 9.0, but the 7.1 link appears dead? I have Netstation Software Release 9.1, July 1998, Multi-Host CD-ROM. It has CDs for both 7.1 and 9.1. I should create images of the 3 CD set to send to you. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 18:29:00 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:29:00 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > I have Netstation Software Release 9.1, July 1998, Multi-Host CD-ROM. It > has CDs for both 7.1 and 9.1. > > I should create images of the 3 CD set to send to you. Sweet! If you could email me a URL where I could pick them up, that would be great. Alternatively, I can provide an ftp dropoff area, assuming my XMission account has enough space. We can also do snail mail. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 14 18:33:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:33:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F4974C.3000905@jbrain.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <50F4974C.3000905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <201301150033.TAA21358@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning >> of Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? > Assuming one does not need to buy the entire 1200 tray lot, I am > happy to buy 5000 - 10000 and sell off by tray for those interested. I'd like to get hold of some of those - I'm thinking probably one package of 156 - if a "bulk buy and parcel out" happens. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 14 18:44:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:44:15 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F4A65F.9050402@sydex.com> On 01/14/2013 03:47 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) wrote: > In case some may noy know, > there is the HP16C Emulator: > > http://www.hp16c.net/ > > "The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows > Vista and Win 7. " There is a big difference--the real 16C has real keys and can slip into a pocket. A set of batteries lasts for years (figure on 7-10 years per set). There's also the Swiss guy with his credit-card sized 16C with a membrane keyboard--too small for my old eyes. But no *real* 16Cs kicking around cheap. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 14 18:57:34 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:57:34 -0800 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> On 01/14/2013 03:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning of > Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? TSOP and 5V only? Too bad they don't have a 3.3V mode. I can't think of a practical use for myself. If I working with 5V, most of my inclination is toward through-hole DIPs and such. Even PLCC would be more useful. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:18:01 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:18:01 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:11 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > >> Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, > > >> they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like > > >> everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some > > >> point, I'm sure. > > > That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... > > > > I've ordered some replacements along with some O-rings for the mag card > > reader. > > What are you doing about the card reader? My repair involves machining a > new > roller hub from brass rod. It works, but you need a small lathe to do it. > I did find your documented method when looking for options, but I lack access to a lathe to do it. I've ordered some matching O-rings (with a square cross-section) which hopefully will work. If not, they cost me next to nothing :). > > At least with the cassette drive, O-rings were the original 'tyres' so you > don't have > to modify any parts to fit new ones. > Yes, that looks like a simple repair. > > > > If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected > between > > > pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. > Shouldn't > > > be hard to check. > > > > Spent some time debugging last night and narrowed it down to a faulty > > transistor (Q8 on the schematic, for those keeping score at home). I've > > ordered a replacement and hopefully that'll get everything humming again. > > > > I assume (without checking the schematics) that's one of the solenoid > drivers. Yes, that's correct. > I looked at the schematic the other day and noticed that if the > motor is running correctly (so the motor switching transistor is being > driven), the only things that can cause the solenoid not to work are > the driver transistor or the solenoid itself. > > I have tried to send you the Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles. Let > me know if there are any problems. > Thanks, received those and I'll be going through them tonight. Thanks! - Josh > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:21:05 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:21:05 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > TSOP and 5V only? Too bad they don't have a 3.3V mode. Oh... I missed that... don't need TSOP. I need a small number of 512Kbit PLCC. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 14 19:33:01 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> TSOP and 5V only? Too bad they don't have a 3.3V mode. > > Oh... I missed that... don't need TSOP. I need a small number of > 512Kbit PLCC. urmm.. and I'm looking for DIP. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Mon Jan 14 10:19:04 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:19:04 +0000 Subject: Data General MV/2500 Documentation Message-ID: <50F42FF8.40605@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Does anyone have any MV/2500 docs that I could have a copy of? Or MV/2000 for that matter - they are very similar. I have just got hold of an MV/2500 which needs plenty of TLC to get it running again. Website and blog at http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ Steve -- /Stephen Merrony / From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Jan 14 14:36:21 2013 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:36:21 -0500 Subject: The VCFSE 1.0 Message-ID: Everyone, We have finalized the show dates for the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 and now it will be over two days - Saturday & Sunday, April 20 & 21, 2013. I will have a press release soon and we have some very nice things planned. I hope some of you can attend the show! Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Writer, Podcaster & Speaker - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 4/20 & 4/21, 2013 http://about.me/davidgreelish From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:37:26 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:37:26 -0500 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: > From: Tom Uban > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:29:24 -0600 > Subject: Re: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM > Very cool! There was a PDP-9 at Purdue University back in the day. What > is the origin of the machine which is being restored at the RICM? This one came from Max Levy Autograph inf Philadelphia, PA. Details are here: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 20:53:56 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:53:56 -0500 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>> the bus. >>> >>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, > > Mouse is right. Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? --Toby > >>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory?... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 20:55:03 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:55:03 -0500 Subject: Data General MV/2500 Documentation In-Reply-To: <50F42FF8.40605@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <50F42FF8.40605@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <50F4C507.10007@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 11:19 AM, Steve Merrony wrote: > Does anyone have any MV/2500 docs that I could have a copy of? Or > MV/2000 for that matter - they are very similar. Try contacting Bruce Ray at Wild Hare. http://www.novasareforever.org/preserve.htm --Toby > > I have just got hold of an MV/2500 which needs plenty of TLC to get it > running again. > > Website and blog at http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ > > Steve From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 14 20:47:59 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:47:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" Message-ID: eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the Vintage Computer Festival. If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY. The VCF Archives were STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling (eBay ID "tvrsales") in cahoots with the landlords of the building where it was sold. The sordid tale can be read about through lawsuit material already on my website for download: http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is there. The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, and probably other charges as I continue my research. I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. So if you don't want to have legal issues to deal with, stay away from anything they are selling. I think I have made myself redundantly clear here. The full story will come out in time. Right now I'm re-grouping for my next legal attack. Yes, I could use assistance, especially if you have a law background and can do research for me. Sure, I could use money, so send some if you got it. I don't need attorneys. Attorneys are useless in the capacity that I am acting. I'm doing this the proper way: myself. My entire career as a computer historian has been destroyed by these hyenas. Now I have to sit here and watch as they auction off 25 years of my life's work piece by piece. Don't be caught in the frenzy when the lion shows up. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 21:36:47 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:36:47 -0700 Subject: HP terminals In-Reply-To: <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com> References: <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com> Message-ID: In article <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > There are 5 HP 700/96 terminals with keyboards. The keyboards are complete. > > 1 of the terminals has significant screen burn in white mode, but not in > black mode. > > 4 terminals come up crisp and bright white, no screen burn, no scratched > glass. > > Cases are very dirty right now, but I can clean them. > > Make offer? Prefer to ship within the US; I don't know how well these will > do going overseas. I'm in Salt Lake City, UT 84106. How about two for $50 each? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 21:44:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:44:09 -0500 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.a u> Message-ID: <50F4D089.3020801@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 9:53 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>>> the bus. >>>> >>>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >> >> Mouse is right. > > Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? Oh, never mind, I see that we are all three in agreement. It's pretty clear from the 2nd page of the spec. "Only one device has control of the bus at any one time." --Toby > > --Toby > >> >>>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory?... > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 21:47:41 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:47:41 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F4D15D.8030602@gmail.com> On 1/14/2013 6:47 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the > Vintage Computer Festival. > > If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from > eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are > most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY. > I am sure you already know this but, you face an uphill battle in San Joaquin county. It's not anywhere I would want to go up against a landlord or even go to court. Maybe contact the recycler and offer them something for all your stuff back. If it was the bay area you might find a friendly judge. No such thing in the central valley. From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 14 22:25:26 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:25:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items Message-ID: The follow items listed for sale on eBay are STOLEN from the Vintage Computer Festival Archives: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOS-Technology-KIM-1-Single-Board-Computer-Revision-G-Commodore-/261153725976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccdf99e18 http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Factory-Sealed-Scrapyard-Dog-Video-Game-Atari-7800-CX7879-Cartridge-/251210844702?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3a7d554a1e http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Commodore-Amiga-A-500-Personal-Home-Computer-Box-Power-Ada-ter-Software-/261153601499?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf7b7db http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Atari-1040STF-1040ST-W-Power-on-Mouse-Box-Computer-System-PC-/251212039098?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6783ba http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Semiconductor-ISP-8P-301N-SC-MP-Low-Cost-Development-Microcomputer-/261153711922?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf96732 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cromemco-CS-1-System-One-Computer-W-Manual-TU-ART-Interface-Rare-/261154123784?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdffb008 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ohio-Scientific-Challenger-8P-Computer-Rare-Power-on-C8POF-/261153977710?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdfd756e http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NorthStar-Horizon-Z-80A-Computer-Rare-W-Wooden-Cabinet-Case-North-Star-/251212423423?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6d60ff http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMSAI-PCS-80-10-S-100-Rare-Cromemco-Blitz-Computer-80-10-MITS-Altair-8800-8080-/261155719700?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3cce180a14 These items have been reported to eBay as stolen. An open lawsuit for conversion, fraud, and racketeering has been filed in San Joaquin County Superior Court and these items are the subject of that lawsuit. Any sales from eBay seller "tvrsales" (Tri-Valley Recycling, Stockton, California) will be traced and any buyers added as defendants to the suit. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 14 23:12:05 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:12:05 -0800 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So let me get this right, you failed to pay your rent, you failed to get legal representation, arrogantly choosing to represent yourself. As a result your property was seized for failure to pay, and then sold to Tri-Valley Recycling. Now you're threatening anyone that chooses to do business with Tri-Valley Recycling? You've lost any credibility you once had. You can't threaten the very people that could give this material a safe home for the poor decisions you've made. Not to mention I have to think that Tri-Valley now has every right to take you to court for Slander. There is an old saying, the person that chooses to represent himself in court, has a fool for a client. Zane At 8:25 PM -0800 1/14/13, Sellam Ismail wrote: >The follow items listed for sale on eBay are STOLEN from the Vintage >Computer Festival Archives: > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOS-Technology-KIM-1-Single-Board-Computer-Revision-G-Commodore-/261153725976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccdf99e18 >http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Factory-Sealed-Scrapyard-Dog-Video-Game-Atari-7800-CX7879-Cartridge-/251210844702?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3a7d554a1e >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Commodore-Amiga-A-500-Personal-Home-Computer-Box-Power-Ada-ter-Software-/261153601499?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf7b7db >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Atari-1040STF-1040ST-W-Power-on-Mouse-Box-Computer-System-PC-/251212039098?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6783ba >http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Semiconductor-ISP-8P-301N-SC-MP-Low-Cost-Development-Microcomputer-/261153711922?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf96732 >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cromemco-CS-1-System-One-Computer-W-Manual-TU-ART-Interface-Rare-/261154123784?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdffb008 >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ohio-Scientific-Challenger-8P-Computer-Rare-Power-on-C8POF-/261153977710?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdfd756e >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NorthStar-Horizon-Z-80A-Computer-Rare-W-Wooden-Cabinet-Case-North-Star-/251212423423?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6d60ff >http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMSAI-PCS-80-10-S-100-Rare-Cromemco-Blitz-Computer-80-10-MITS-Altair-8800-8080-/261155719700?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3cce180a14 > >These items have been reported to eBay as stolen. > >An open lawsuit for conversion, fraud, and racketeering has been filed in >San Joaquin County Superior Court and these items are the subject of that >lawsuit. Any sales from eBay seller "tvrsales" (Tri-Valley Recycling, >Stockton, California) will be traced and any buyers added as defendants to >the suit. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail VintageTech >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com > >Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 14 23:29:35 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:29:35 -0500 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:12 AM Subject: Re: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items > So let me get this right, you failed to pay your rent, you failed to get > legal representation, arrogantly choosing to represent yourself. As a > result your property was seized for failure to pay, and then sold to > Tri-Valley Recycling. Now you're threatening anyone that chooses to do > business with Tri-Valley Recycling? > It is a shame he lost his collection that probably took decades to collect, but I have to ask how does somebody with $500K or more (just a guess) in collectables easily sold on ebay lose it all over a few grand in rent? Its not like he didn't see this coming. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 14 23:36:37 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:36:37 -0800 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:29 AM -0500 1/15/13, TeoZ wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" >>So let me get this right, you failed to pay your rent, you failed >>to get legal representation, arrogantly choosing to represent >>yourself. As a result your property was seized for failure to pay, >>and then sold to Tri-Valley Recycling. Now you're threatening >>anyone that chooses to do business with Tri-Valley Recycling? > >It is a shame he lost his collection that probably took decades to >collect, but I have to ask how does somebody with $500K or more >(just a guess) in collectables easily sold on ebay lose it all over >a few grand in rent? Its not like he didn't see this coming. I have to agree, it is a shame, I hate to see it happen to anyone, in fact this reminds me of the mess with Jim Willing's collection. However, you're absolutely correct, there was a time when some of the collection should have been sacrificed for the greater good of the collection. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 14 23:49:38 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:49:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items Message-ID: Zane Healy, So you're saying you read my entire complaint, affidavit, all exhibits, and have applied your Solomon-like wisdom to the matter and have determined that my credibility is lost, I have committed slander, and I am a fool. Wow. Hey, maybe you should offer to represent Tri-Valley Recycling. They could really use your legal expertise. You seem to have it all figured out. Even if I never get my property returned, turning my back on this hobby and moving on will be easy thanks to people like you. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 15 00:08:02 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:08:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Zane Healy, > > So you're saying you read my entire complaint, affidavit, all exhibits, > and have applied your Solomon-like wisdom to the matter and have > determined that my credibility is lost, I have committed slander, and I am > a fool. For what it's worth, I read your PDFs on the matter. Has there been any correspondence from the other side you're able to show us? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 00:16:33 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:16:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items Message-ID: David, To answer your question: the truth of the matter is no. My affidavit contains their soul response: an illegible (legally invalid) notice to sell my property that came only after I noticed them of their deficiency in process and did not meet any of the statutory requirements and was undated (hence, illegible). As it was merely intended to cover their asses, it was not really a serious notice, as even when I exercised my right to reclaim my stuff per their notice they still refused. I will post that particular exhibit with the rest of the exhibits as soon as I can get them scanned. The landlords did finally respond to the complaint, which I received in the mail today. I'll scan and post that as well, for what it's worth. It's filled with stuff attorneys get paid to write. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Jan 15 02:41:27 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:41:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358239287.25693.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > In article <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo at web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, > ? ? Tom Sparks writes: > >> > Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to >> > reproduce the technology used back then? >> I just want to reproduce the look > > OK, then you need to decide which "look" you want to reproduce.? Are > you specifically trying to reproduce the visual look from REND386, or > just using that as a reference point? I think both > >> for my model I am looking at doing >> * Isometric projection > > This is trivial. > >> * objectvr[4] > > This is also trivial.? From looking at the URL you gave for [4], it's > just picture flipping a bunch of pictures taken at different > viewpoints relative to the object.? You don't even need a graphics > card for this, it's just picture flipping. working out the best way to get these pictures, animation? > >> * at a later date I may use webgl > > Why webgl, are you trying to make something that is browser based? yes, it? a later date project, I want to allow full 6DOF of the models as well as objectvr's limited freedom > >> > If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply > using >> > existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. >> its not that easy as it seams a lot of the styling needs to be done using a >> Shading Language >> witch is only support on some newer graphics cards > > Shader based graphics cards are the norm for the past decade, so hardly > only available on "newer" graphics cards.? OGL even provides a > software > fallback. > > However, don't assume that because people are showing you how to do > something in a shader that the only way to do it is in a shader. I was just asking could it be done > The > last generation of fixed-function pipeline cards (i.e. 10+ year old > cards) were capable of a variety of effects if you were creative in > how you use the hardware. > > I would agree that it's simpler to develop the effect now with a > shader than to try and figure out complex multitexture fixed-function > effects.? If you get something like ATI's RenderMonkey or NVidia's FX > Composer, you can evaluate the shaders interactively on a model > without having to do edit-compile-test cycles. i'l have look into downloading those programs (google here I come.....) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > > ? ? The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ? The Terminals Wiki > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 04:41:45 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 23:41:45 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? Message-ID: I've Retr0Brighted a handful of my computers in the past but now they seem to be regressing back to their original mellow yellow. This despite being kept in dark boxes. While UV seems to be essential for yellowing in the first place, perhaps it's not required for reyellowing/regression after a Retr0Bright treatment. Anyway I thought it was an interesting phenomenon worth sharing so I wrote an article on my experiences http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm Has anyone else observed this? Terry (Tez) From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Jan 15 05:06:32 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:06:32 +0100 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Terry Stewart wrote: > I've Retr0Brighted a handful of my computers in the past but now they > seem to be regressing back to their original mellow yellow. This > despite being kept in dark boxes. While UV seems to be essential for > yellowing in the first place, perhaps it's not required for > reyellowing/regression after a Retr0Bright treatment. > > Has anyone else observed this? > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? re, reiche From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 08:02:33 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:02:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I don't need attorneys. Attorneys are useless in the capacity that I am > acting. In all due respect, a pit-bull of an attorney is exactly what you DO need. But, however you do decide to proceed, I wish you the best of luck and a favorable outcome. -- From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 08:23:36 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:23:36 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F48E2D.4020408@comcast.net> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48E2D.4020408@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001501cdf32b$e7f21e00$b7d65a00$@com> I don't own these. I called the fellow on the website, and he said there are 156 per tray, 7 trays shrink wrapped per unit. So the minimum buy is 1 shrink wrapped unit of 7x156 pcs. Please call him direct to order; these are not mine. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 5:01 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale The description says "on trays and in sealed packages of 156 pieces" and "a total of 1,200 packages". Doesn't this mean that the minimum would be 156 pieces? Also 156 x 1200 = 187,200 which is what you say the total number of pieces is. So then 156 pieces would be $39.00 (156 x $0.25). Cheers, Bryan P.S. If you were to buy 1200 pcs then you would get 7.69 trays. Unless you expect to sell all 1,200 trays at once. On 1/14/2013 5:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 > pcs is the minimum order. > General purpose flash memory. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale > > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* > (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing > around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: > 01/13/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: > 01/13/13 > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Jan 15 08:40:04 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:40:04 -0500 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130115144004.GJ4358@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * David Griffith [130115 01:11]: > On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Zane Healy, > > > > So you're saying you read my entire complaint, affidavit, all exhibits, > > and have applied your Solomon-like wisdom to the matter and have > > determined that my credibility is lost, I have committed slander, and I am > > a fool. > > For what it's worth, I read your PDFs on the matter. Has there been any > correspondence from the other side you're able to show us? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Indeed. The exhibits would be good to see. Todd From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:05:58 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:05:58 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa Message-ID: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> The Apple III is gone, but the Lisa is still here. Appears complete and in good condition, but does NOT power on. Keyboard is included. $125 takes it away, plus shipping. Since UPS killed the Z100 I shipped to California, I will pack VERY well in oversized box, so shipping will be a little higher because of the big box. Estimated shipping within the US on UPS ground is about $75, give or take. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:21:18 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:21:18 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics Message-ID: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 10:28:56 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:28:56 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> Message-ID: At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell > >Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. > >Cindy Croxton Page not found. :-( I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm curious to see the photo's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:39:16 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:39:16 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> Message-ID: <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell > >Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. > >Cindy Croxton Page not found. :-( I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm curious to see the photo's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 10:45:51 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:45:51 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Message-ID: Still no luck, I get a "sorry, that page was not found" error. Zane At 10:39 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. > >Cindy Croxton >Electronics Plus >1613 Water Street >Kerrville, TX 78028 >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >AOL IM elcpls > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics > >At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell >> >>Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. >> >>Cindy Croxton > >Page not found. :-( > >I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm >curious to see the photo's. > >Zane > > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 10:47:32 2013 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> how much of the collection were you able to save, seems like the pdf's indicate you did move quite a bit --- On Mon, 1/14/13, Sellam Ismail wrote: From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 15 10:48:05 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:48:05 +0000 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.! au> Message-ID: <50F58845.90401@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/01/2013 02:53, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>>> the bus. >>>> >>>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >> >> Mouse is right. > > Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? I can't remember where it is, but at least one of the QBus documents describing bus cycles details which signals are active at what times, including how and when a DMA request can be ack'd. It might be in one of the processor handbooks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 15 10:52:09 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:52:09 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> Message-ID: <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> On 1/15/13 8:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: try > http://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/ > stack of displaywriters on the middle left which model 327x is on the middle right? From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:56:20 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:56:20 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Message-ID: <009f01cdf341$3e64a720$bb2df560$@com> Sorry, I forgot to make them public! Please try again? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Honeywell terminals pics Still no luck, I get a "sorry, that page was not found" error. Zane At 10:39 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. > >Cindy Croxton >Electronics Plus >1613 Water Street >Kerrville, TX 78028 >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >AOL IM elcpls > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics > >At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell >> >>Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. >> >>Cindy Croxton > >Page not found. :-( > >I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm >curious to see the photo's. > >Zane > > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >01/15/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >01/15/13 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 11:28:23 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:28:23 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> Sorry, I don't follow you. In photo 34, there are Displaywrites on the top left shelf, those are now gone. On the right hand side, the upside down monitor on the 2nd shelf is an ADDS terminal. There is a 3476 terminal, pn 38F7302/38F7300, that you can't see in the pics. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:52 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics On 1/15/13 8:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: try > http://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/ > stack of displaywriters on the middle left which model 327x is on the middle right? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 11:29:41 2013 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:29:41 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, condemning it to a firey death... Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 11:36:59 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:36:59 -0500 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> Message-ID: > Sorry, I don't follow you. It looks like a 3278 model 2. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 15 11:37:51 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:37:51 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> Message-ID: <50F593EF.6040902@bitsavers.org> On 1/15/13 9:28 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Sorry, I don't follow you. It was clear from our phone conversation that we don't speak the same language. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 11:43:30 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:43:30 -0600 Subject: Honeywell and HP terminals Message-ID: <00cb01cdf347$d4d88680$7e899380$@com> The OLD Honeywells and the HP 700/96 terminals have been sold. Qty 2 of the HDS7 terminals, not just 1 are left. If anybody knows the PN for the HDS7 keyboard, I might have matching ones here. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 11:42:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:42:07 -0200 Subject: Apple Lisa References: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> Message-ID: <07F8B634F52B47DA911667F7C14ED127@tababook> > The Apple III is gone, but the Lisa is still here. > Appears complete and in good condition, but does NOT power on. > Keyboard is included. > $125 takes it away, plus shipping. I'm banging my head on the table... :'( From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 15 11:55:17 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:55:17 -0500 Subject: Mindset Computer Corp collection... Message-ID: <50F59805.6000602@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I've had a lot of interest in the collection, but my time is running short so I need to sell this whole collection, I've lowered the price for everything - systems, expansion units, modules, boxed items, mice, joysticks, keyboards, software, developer binder and domain and more all for $4,000. First person who replies directly to me - curt(at)atarimuseum(dot)com gets it all, so email me and let me know, thanks... Curt From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 12:19:30 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:19:30 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <009f01cdf341$3e64a720$bb2df560$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> <009f01cdf341$3e64a720$bb2df560$@com> Message-ID: That worked. They look newer than the ones we used, but older than what the vendor used in class. Still neat to see. Thanks! Zane On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:56 AM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > Sorry, I forgot to make them public! Please try again? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Honeywell terminals pics > > Still no luck, I get a "sorry, that page was not found" error. > > Zane > > > > > At 10:39 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. >> >> Cindy Croxton >> Electronics Plus >> 1613 Water Street >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics >> >> At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell >>> >>> Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. >>> >>> Cindy Croxton >> >> Page not found. :-( >> >> I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm >> curious to see the photo's. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Photographer | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >> | My Photography Website | >> | http://www.zanesphotography.com | >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >> 01/15/13 >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >> 01/15/13 > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > > From bryan.pope at comcast.net Tue Jan 15 12:21:18 2013 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:21:18 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! Cheers, Bryan On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try > to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost > immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making > even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the > stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the > working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, > by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, > condemning it to a firey death... > > Mike > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 12:28:58 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:28:58 -0600 Subject: Lisa pics Message-ID: <012101cdf34e$2f15d110$8d417330$@com> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/AppleLisa but it might be sold now Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 12:47:47 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:47 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the >affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am >continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is >there. > >The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. >I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, >and probably other charges as I continue my research. > >I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen >property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. >Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY >ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end >up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. My interpretation is: tough noogies. You spent half a year not paying bills or trying in any possible way to relocate your belongings. It was excuse after excuse after excuse followed by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a spare bedroom. Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 13:09:12 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:09:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Message-ID: > My interpretation is: tough noogies. Your opinion is noted, ignorant as it is, based on assumptions, incomplete facts, and a callous disregard for and improper understanding of property rights (that apply equally in Canada as well as here in America, ancient law that goes back to the Magna Charta). I understand there are people like you, who will look at a situation like this and say stuff like, "tough noogies"(?) I realize you would probably say the same thing to your grandmother--damn the facts. You're the same type of people who believe it's OK to scam someone out of their property by intentionally withholding court notices they are required to send, then collude to deprive the rightful owner of any possible remedy because you know you have an insider in the court who will make everything work in your favor. I'm not concerned with people like you, inasmuch as I can avoid doing any business with you so that when things don't work out I can be guaranteed my rights will be observed and a business relationship can be wound down honorably and with integrity. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 13:46:56 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:46:56 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I lost over 10,000 5.25" floppy disks from a storage locker in Ottawa that way :( Yes, in this area, they chop the lock if you're even 24 hours late, no excuses.If you have been a long time customer you might get 72 hours, if you're lucky. >From his last message I'd say he does have a point on his side though,if the owner agreed to an arrangement then suddenly turned around and did this,then he has a case. But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. Also agree with the comments here, there are tons of collectors, the postershould have been actively pursuing borrowing space from others, loaning,trading, etc. This was let go far too long. Although I do hope he gets most of it back. Dan. > From: ball.of.john at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:47 -0800 > > >I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the > >affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am > >continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is > >there. > > > >The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. > >I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, > >and probably other charges as I continue my research. > > > >I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen > >property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. > >Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY > >ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end > >up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. > > My interpretation is: tough noogies. > > You spent half a year not paying bills or trying in any possible way to > relocate your belongings. It was excuse after excuse after excuse followed > by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of > been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a > spare bedroom. > Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how > much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted > that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget > about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now > claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. > > Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in > fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to > bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 15 13:34:20 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:34:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: from "Keven Miller" at Jan 14, 13 04:47:12 pm Message-ID: > > In case some may noy know, > there is the HP16C Emulator: > > http://www.hp16c.net/ > > "The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows > Vista and Win 7. " Look, if I had space for a PC on my workbench (or on top of the minicomputer I'm repairing, or...) then I am sure I could find soemthing to ru no it. The thing about a calculator is that it's small enough to go to the problem. I have no problems in fitting my 16C, or even a 48/49 in my toolkit, and of putting it on the bench, or on top of the unit I'm repairing or... That's quite apart from the fact that many calculator emulators display a picoture of the keyboard on the screen and expect you to use a moust to press the kleys, at least for the more exotic functions. A real clacualtor keyboard is a lot faster and easier to use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 15 13:43:42 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:43:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: from "Josh Dersch" at Jan 14, 13 05:18:01 pm Message-ID: > > What are you doing about the card reader? My repair involves machining a > > new > > roller hub from brass rod. It works, but you need a small lathe to do it. > > > > I did find your documented method when looking for options, but I lack It's also in the articles I sent you. > access to a lathe to do it. I've ordered some matching O-rings (with a One problem with having a reasoanble workshop is that you tend ot use it, and thus my memthods may not be generally applicable. Oh well... > square cross-section) which hopefully will work. If not, they cost me next > to nothing :). The original HP 'hubs' are plain, the have no flanges. The original rubber tyres were moulded onto them. I think any rings stretched over the original hubs are likely to slip off. Whether you could glue them in place I don't know. Isocyano acrullic hydro-coplymerising adhesives might be worth a shot. I did think, for making a platen roller, of making a mould and casting new tyres onto the original hub/spindle. In the case of the HP9800 card reader, you would ahve to remvoe the hubs (and you need a lathe/mill to make the puller tool to do this) and then make the mould, which agains would probalby need a lathe. So that's not a lot of good. > > > > > > > At least with the cassette drive, O-rings were the original 'tyres' so you > > don't have > > to modify any parts to fit new ones. > > > > Yes, that looks like a simple repair. It is, Again, the articles I sent include a step-by-step strip-down of the HP9830 tape drive, I thin kthe 9865 one is very similar. BAsically you have to rmeove the motor assembly (take off the rear bracked and the motors o nte beam just slide out. Then either fiddle the new rigns in palce, or remvoe the front panel, the circlip o nthe cassette spindle and the leaf spidng from the back of the drive wheel, and slide the spindle out. It takes longer to describe than to do. > > I have tried to send you the Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles. Let > > me know if there are any problems. > > > > Thanks, received those and I'll be going through them tonight. Thanks! I hope you find soem interesting information in there. -tony From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 15 14:04:04 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:04:04 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! > > Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! Well, speaking as someone who had a storage area robbed and had to try salvaging my smashed-up equipment from a dumpster, at least the stuff would still exist somewhere. I would have at least a chance of getting it back later. It's not GOOD, but it's better than the alternative. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 14:20:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:20:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130115120941.J51786@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, John Ball wrote: > by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of > been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a > spare bedroom. spare bedroom??!? Can I move into your house? Maybe put my HOUSE into one of your spare bedrooms? Just the stuff that he hauled out from my closing office would fill three normal "spare bedroom"s. > about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now > claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. > Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in > fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to > bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. He is contesting the "conversion", and making notice that he contends that it is "STOLEN" merchandise. Knowingly accepting stolen merchandise (if he should prevail) is, indeed, a crime. Accepting stolen merchandise UNknowingly is not a crime. However, if a court rules that it was stolen, then it must be returned to its rightful owner. Any purchaser who UNknowingly accepted the stolen merchandise is not entitled to compensation for the return to the rightful owner, and can merely attempt to collect back from the seller. OTOH, if it were to get purchased by a shill, he might be able to regain it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 13:47:15 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:47:15 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa is sold Message-ID: <016a01cdf359$1ead3880$5c07a980$@com> The Apple Lisa has been purchased. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 15 14:43:11 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:43:11 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> John Ball wrote: > Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows > just how much different the laws are but at least up here it's > nationally accepted that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that > far due you can forget about whatever you left there. The landlord can > switch the locks and now claim it as his own and the courts will laugh > you out the door. In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, and/or unjust enrichment. [These are my personal opinions, which are worth exactly what you've paid for them. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.]// From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 14:41:40 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:41:40 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? Yes, as far as I know that is correct, but I'd always assumed (maybe wrongly) that a reasonable amount of UV light was needed to facilitate this. Based on what's happened it may be that very little UV (if any) is needed. In the case of my Retr0Brighted cases....just a few days exposure per year under florescents (i.e. the time I had the computers out of the box to play with or test) seemed to be all that was needed. Merlin, in his writeup in the Retr0Bright wiki (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com) does say even low levels from florescent lights is enough. I'd always assumed this was everyday exposure though. Perhaps with some plastics UV is not needed at all? I have heard of cases where people have put a shiny white computer in a sealed box for storage only to find a cheese-yellow artifact when they drag it out years later. There is something more puzzling. Let's assume yellowing can occur in the absence of much (or any) UV light. Why then are those cord markings on the Apple IIe and Vic 20 reappearing? You would have expected any further yellowing of my cases, even with low levels of UV, to be consistent across the case surface now the cords are not there. All surfaces would be exposed to equal amount of oxygen or brief light. However the cord impressions (which protected the plastic under them from initial yellowing) are re-appearing? The question I have in my mind therefore is "do the changes in the chemical structure cause by the initial yellowing (OR perhaps the RetroBrighting itself) make the plastic MORE prone to future 2BR.O co-ordinant bonds or/and migration of these to the surface of the case (hence causing yellowing)? " Or is something else going on? Whatever is happening, the practical implications are that even brief and very very low levels of UV seem to be enough to re-yellow retr0Brighted surfaces over time. There is not enough evidence in my case to say that UV is not needed AT ALL, as all the units had been exposed briefly a few times a year, to fluorescent light. Tez From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 14:57:29 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:57:29 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm confused by this case. I was under the assumption that anyone that doesn't pay their bills to a storage locker place faces forfeiture of the property that is stored there. At least that's how I remember the rental contract agreement I signed on the storage locker we rented when we relocated houses. It seems to also track with what seems to happen on "Storage Wars." I read the stuff, but I'm confused about how the rental company acted improperly, but it seems painfully clear that OP was several months behind on rent. Cliffs? On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, > then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for > scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! > > Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the > stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try >> to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost >> immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making >> even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the >> stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the >> working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, >> by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, >> condemning it to a firey death... >> >> Mike >> >> > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 14:46:14 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Message-ID: What some folks are missing is a sense of the timeline. This dragged out over 5 months, in which time I tried every possible way under the Sun to get access to the warehouse after I'd been inappropriately locked out (landlords failed to give proper, timely notice) including OFFERING TO PAY THE ENTIRE AMOUNT OF BACK RENT, the money of which was laid out on the counter of their secretary, counted in her hands, but was rejected after she called her bosses and was inexplicably instructed not to take the money. Read Uniform Commercial Code section 3-306(b) and then tell me I didn't pay them. This is all in my affidavit. I only went to court after I exhausted my private administrative remedies and the landlords began to threaten to sell my stuff, fully in violation of my rights and California statutes of which I thoroughly educated them. The landlords brought an insider to the court with them (as they did to every court appearance) who obviously helped throw the matter in their favor. Yes, yes, of course I'm going to say that, but if you only knew. Learning about the corruption in San Joaquin County courts is not difficult--google will tell you all (that is publicly available). What do you do when you're an outsider and you're up against an entire "good old boy" network? Never mind, don't think about it, it might hurt your fragile brains. All I can say is that when your options are to capitulate to someone's unlawful demands or else say bye bye to your life's work, what choice are you going to make? I was able to move out about 15-20% of the collection before being locked out again. Read the affidavit as to why I could not finish on time. Yes, it was my fault for not getting it all out in time--woulda/shoudla/coulda. Yes, I could have asked for help sooner. Yes, maybe I should have ignored the unchecked flooding in the warehouse that was destroying part of my documents collection and just continued to pack the loose items. Etc. However, I don't see how that negates my property rights, and anyone who has an accurate understanding of the law doesn't either. I know more about California commercial rental and property law than most attorneys now, so to those who want to pontificate lawyerly, please keep your uninformed opinions to yourself. I am, however, open to input from people who actually study law and can match or surpass my knowledge. My affidavit was never rebutted. An unrebutted affidavit stands as truth in the record. This is an ancient legal maxim. These guys have implicitly admitted their guilt. However, they have the shield of attorneys and insiders who know the judges well enough to sway the outcome in their favor. Yes, I understand: that only happens on TV, not in real life. Of course. While all this was going on, I was also fighting against my purported "mortgage lender" who was unlawfully foreclosing on my house, and was actively assisting others in a similar situation. I was supposed to be out of MY house last Tuesday, but a last minute bankruptcy filing has kept shelter over my and my families head--for now. I can comfortably say I didn't get much sleep last year. At least walk a few feet in my shoes if you can before you feel the urge to lecture me. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Jan 15 15:02:30 2013 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <470F6DF3-AADE-4B89-A7E5-AE530E2C54ED@xlisper.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. Didn't Sellam try to do exactly that? He posted a message here a while ago offering to sell anything in his collection or maybe just things he had duplicates of. In any case, I think he *did* try to sell things to raise money. Maybe there just weren't enough willing buyers. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 15:12:48 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:12:48 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: <992FB3A4-4586-41F0-9003-7D80C48E291E@aracnet.com> That is not how I took what Mike said, and he has a very valid point. Also we have seen no evidence that Tri-Valley stole anything, or that they are 'shady'. In reading through the *one* side of the story we have, it would appear that they were either sold the 'scrap', or else contracted to remove it. I have also noticed that Sellam references many documents that are missing, so even in his side of the story there are considerable holes. Something that worries me is what went into the dumpster that they apparently had on site. One also has to wonder how badly Sellam had pissed off the landlords prior to this point. Reading through the email and documents last night I was reminded of a conversation I'd had earlier in the night with my seven year old. As regrettable as it is, the choices he made had consequences. Zane On Jan 15, 2013, at 10:21 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! > > Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try >> to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost >> immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making >> even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the >> stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the >> working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, >> by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, >> condemning it to a firey death... >> >> Mike > > From bryan.pope at comcast.net Tue Jan 15 15:13:40 2013 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:13:40 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <50F5C684.3050808@comcast.net> Are some people here suffering from short term memory loss?! A month and a half ago (12/1/2012) Sellam posted to cctalk that he was selling some of his collection: "The Vintage Computer Festival is currently securing funding for operations and storage of the VCF Archives for the next 6 months. As such, the VCF is conducting a limited sale of select items of the VCF Archives." Cheers, Bryan On 1/15/2013 2:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I lost over 10,000 5.25" floppy disks from a storage locker in Ottawa that way :( > Yes, in this area, they chop the lock if you're even 24 hours late, no excuses.If you have been a long time customer you might get 72 hours, if you're lucky. > > From his last message I'd say he does have a point on his side though,if the owner agreed to an arrangement then suddenly turned around and did this,then he has a case. > But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. > Also agree with the comments here, there are tons of collectors, the postershould have been actively pursuing borrowing space from others, loaning,trading, etc. > This was let go far too long. Although I do hope he gets most of it back. > Dan. > >> From: ball.of.john at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley >> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:47 -0800 >> >>> I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the >>> affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am >>> continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is >>> there. >>> >>> The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. >>> I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, >>> and probably other charges as I continue my research. >>> >>> I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen >>> property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. >>> Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY >>> ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end >>> up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. >> My interpretation is: tough noogies. >> >> You spent half a year not paying bills or trying in any possible way to >> relocate your belongings. It was excuse after excuse after excuse followed >> by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of >> been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a >> spare bedroom. >> Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how >> much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted >> that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget >> about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now >> claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. >> >> Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in >> fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to >> bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. >> > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 15:04:54 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Message-ID: Eric Smith wrote: > In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from > state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply > possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves > having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is > believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale > (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation > newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil > Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. Actually, the threshold amount is $300, and before it can be sold at auction the landlord must have already: 1) Noticed the tennant of the restoration of the real property 2) Noticed the tennant of any personal property left on the property 3) >>>Allowed the tennant 15 days to recover the property<< If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them > in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, > and/or unjust enrichment. Eric is obviously someone who has taken the time to study the law. Thank you, Eric. And as Eric mentioned, these laws vary by state/jurisdiction, so you may have a different set of laws involved where you live, in which case I can say I'm sorry for you. At least in California we have these protections on the books, not that they are strictly adhered to in some places where the rule of law is obviously not as paramount as personal connections. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 15 11:07:49 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:07:49 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Message-ID: <50F58CE5.3060404@jwsss.com> On 1/15/2013 8:39 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. > May be useless data, but i could get to them. I also have a upgraded google and upgraded picassa account. This may have had some affect on how I could get to the pictures. You my need to share them to be more "public". jim From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 15:27:03 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" Message-ID: Zane Healy wrote: > Something that worries me is what went into the dumpster that they > apparently had on site. All of my shelving, desks, benches--the infrastructure of the archive-- and other items that the undiscerning scrapper would consider "junk". Thank you for your concern. > One also has to wonder how badly Sellam had pissed off the landlords > prior to this point. Reading through the email and documents last night > I was reminded of a conversation I'd had earlier in the night with my > seven year old. As regrettable as it is, the choices he made had > consequences. You're now comparing me to your 7 year old? You're unbelievable. How do I put this as politely as possible: you are making a lot of fart noises right now. As far as TVR, they claimed at the hearing it cost them $61,000 to move 200 pallets 3 miles across town. Almost all of the pallets were stacked and ready to go. They needed to stack maybe 5 more pallets of stuff, and discarded the rest (the "junk"). When they claimed this I knew they were lying and thus colluding with the landlords in their crime and therefore complicit. Four days before the hearing I had a 40 minute conversation with the operations manager of TVR and they knew full well the story AND the fact that there was already an open lawsuit against the landlords. I offered them the money they claim they paid the landlords for the stuff and to not add them to the lawsuit but they rejected it. Right there they opted to collude with the landlords. They are guilty. Now I will prove it. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 15 16:01:39 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:01:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201301152201.RAA27905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> My interpretation is: tough noogies. > Your opinion is noted, ignorant as it is, based on assumptions, > incomplete facts, At this point, it seems to me, any reaction anyone not involved in the suit has will be based on assumptions and incomplete facts. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 16:16:29 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:16:29 -0600 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting Tez... I was tempted to try this on my IIci but now that you're having problems with the process I wonder if it's worth the hassle. :( On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I've Retr0Brighted a handful of my computers in the past but now they > seem to be regressing back to their original mellow yellow. This > despite being kept in dark boxes. While UV seems to be essential for > yellowing in the first place, perhaps it's not required for > reyellowing/regression after a Retr0Bright treatment. > > Anyway I thought it was an interesting phenomenon worth sharing so I > wrote an article on my experiences > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm > > Has anyone else observed this? > > Terry (Tez) > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 16:17:00 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:17:00 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> References: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <47308E18-0F2E-4CA7-B747-6F23B39BB3FC@aracnet.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > John Ball wrote: >> Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. > > In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. > > If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, and/or unjust enrichment. > > [These are my personal opinions, which are worth exactly what you've paid for them. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.]// Thanks Eric, good this is good to know. The question then becomes one of if the procedure was followed or not. It sounds as if it could have been without Sellam's knowledge. Is there a requirement to notify the tenant if not physically present on the property? How long does the process take? While it isn't stated, would think that the recycler was able to satisfy the police that they had purchased the contents of the building legally. Zane From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 16:22:30 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:22:30 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: The laws vary by state as pointed out and then also they can vary depending on the contract you sign. Many storage facilities have contractual agreements stating that if you fail to pay you'll have x time to retrieve your property (or forfeit your property) and it will become the property of the storage facility and they then sell it as they see fit. In this scenario it wasn't a storage unit though, this was technically an office space as far as I know. Hence the size (10,000 square feet or so). That's my previous knowledge though and I'm not a legal person nor up to date on whether it was the same warehouse I had the honor if standing in years back. It was amazing to see though. I can't imagine having to move 10,000sf of equipment in a timely or safe manner, nor having the funds to find a place to store that much equipment.. not like storage units come in that size ;-) On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I'm confused by this case. I was under the assumption that anyone that > doesn't pay their bills to a storage locker place faces forfeiture of the > property that is stored there. At least that's how I remember the rental > contract agreement I signed on the storage locker we rented when we > relocated houses. > > It seems to also track with what seems to happen on "Storage Wars." I read > the stuff, but I'm confused about how the rental company acted improperly, > but it seems painfully clear that OP was several months behind on rent. > Cliffs? > From eallen at owt.com Tue Jan 15 16:34:12 2013 From: eallen at owt.com (Ernest G. Allen) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:41:40 > From: Terry Stewart > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV > light? > > > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? > > Yes, as far as I know that is correct, but I'd always assumed (maybe > wrongly) that a reasonable amount of UV light was needed to facilitate > this. Based on what's happened it may be that very little UV (if any) > is needed. In the case of my Retr0Brighted cases....just a few days > exposure per year under florescents (i.e. the time I had the computers > out of the box to play with or test) seemed to be all that was needed. > > Merlin, in his writeup in the Retr0Bright wiki > (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com) does say even low levels from > florescent lights is enough. I'd always assumed this was everyday > exposure though. Perhaps with some plastics UV is not needed at all? > I have heard of cases where people have put a shiny white computer in > a sealed box for storage only to find a cheese-yellow artifact when > they drag it out years later. > > There is something more puzzling. Let's assume yellowing can occur in > the absence of much (or any) UV light. Why then are those cord > markings on the Apple IIe and Vic 20 reappearing? You would have > expected any further yellowing of my cases, even with low levels of > UV, to be consistent across the case surface now the cords are not > there. All surfaces would be exposed to equal amount of oxygen or > brief light. However the cord impressions (which protected the > plastic under them from initial yellowing) are re-appearing? > I know that the normal explanation for the yellowing of the cases is that exposure to UV made them yellow, and that would be one explanation of how the outlines (shadows) of the cords came to be. Another possibility might be that the plastic in the cords was outgassing while they lay on the case, and that the shadows are where that gas somehow helped protect the case from yellowing. To quickly falsify this theory, do you (or someone else) have some examples where a non-yellowed outline was caused by something that (1) didn't outgas, and (2) didn't trap, even partially, outgassing from the case itself. Even a single sheet of paper would partially trap outgassing from the case, but something like a sticky note leaving a non-yellowed outline might be good enough to falsify this theory. An ideal falsification of this theory would be something like a metallic box with legs that kept the bottom panel of the box away from the plastic case. > The question I have in my mind therefore is "do the changes in the > chemical structure cause by the initial yellowing (OR perhaps the > RetroBrighting itself) make the plastic MORE prone to future 2BR.O > co-ordinant bonds or/and migration of these to the surface of the case > (hence causing yellowing)? " Or is something else going on? > > Whatever is happening, the practical implications are that even brief > and very very low levels of UV seem to be enough to re-yellow > retr0Brighted surfaces over time. There is not enough evidence in my > case to say that UV is not needed AT ALL, as all the units had been > exposed briefly a few times a year, to fluorescent light. > > Tez > --Ernest From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 15 16:41:28 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:41:28 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17079D9C-2589-48B4-9A61-C1908C21EA83@shiresoft.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I'm confused by this case. I was under the assumption that anyone that > doesn't pay their bills to a storage locker place faces forfeiture of the > property that is stored there. At least that's how I remember the rental > contract agreement I signed on the storage locker we rented when we > relocated houses. > > It seems to also track with what seems to happen on "Storage Wars." I read > the stuff, but I'm confused about how the rental company acted improperly, > but it seems painfully clear that OP was several months behind on rent. > Cliffs? I think what's missing here is that Sellam's "storage" was a warehouse and not a storage locker(s) (ie Public Storage and their ilk). It was "commercial" property and as such there was a lease. If not in fact, then implied (if implied then CA statutes still apply to a "default" lease arrangement). That connotes a set of legal conditions on the landlord (as well as the tenant). I feel for Sellam as I went through several years of legal shenanigans at the hands of unscrupulous attorneys and their clients many years ago. It's not a pleasant experience by any stretch of imagination (which I guess it why they do it, most folks tire of the pain and settle rightly or wrongly just to be able to get on with their lives). All I can say, especially to all the folks who are down on Sellam, is that until/unless you've gone through this (and/or have a good basis in the law) I suggest you keep quiet. TTFN - Guy > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, >> then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for >> scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! >> >> Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the >> stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Bryan >> >> >> On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> >>> The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try >>> to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost >>> immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making >>> even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the >>> stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the >>> working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, >>> by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, >>> condemning it to a firey death... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 16:43:39 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:43:39 -0800 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine Message-ID: <50F5DB9B.9050107@sydex.com> I posted this on Erik Klein's forum awhile back, but also meant to post this here. Electronics Goldmine has new 2-per-package MCM4517P12 16Kx1 DRAMs for $1 for two ICs. These are the single-supply version of the 4116 3-rail devices and I believe, entirely pin-compatible. Might be a good deal for someone looking for replacement DRAM. http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19239 Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 15 16:54:01 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:54:01 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> References: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50F5DE09.5090603@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from > state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply > possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves > having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is > believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public > sale (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation > newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil > Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. Someone pointed out to me off-list that this was a commercial eviction, so the rules aren't exactly the same. However, I'm pretty sure that it's still the case that the landlord can't just take possession of the stuff, must hold an auction, and post a legal notice of the auction place and time. The landlord doesn't wind up with ownership of any of the stuff unless he wins it at auction. Also, the landlord can't dribble it out to auction a little bit at a time. But as I said before, I am not a lawyer. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 15 17:20:14 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:20:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <20130115120941.J51786@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 15, 13 12:20:49 pm" Message-ID: <201301152320.r0FNKEwh29818980@floodgap.com> > Accepting stolen merchandise UNknowingly is not a crime. However, > if a court rules that it was stolen, then it must be returned > to its rightful owner. Any purchaser who UNknowingly accepted > the stolen merchandise is not entitled to compensation for the > return to the rightful owner, and can merely attempt to collect > back from the seller. FWIW, when my storage unit was burgled, one of the items turned up at a local pawn shop. The detective (this is Southern California) said the arrangement was that the pawn shop could not profit from the arrangement, but that they were entitled to the cost they paid to receive the item. I paid them that cost, got the item back, and charged it to the burglary insurance (who promptly denied it, but that's a whole other story). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 18:04:33 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:04:33 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >spare bedroom??!? >Can I move into your house? >Maybe put my HOUSE into one of your spare bedrooms? >Just the stuff that he hauled out from my closing office >would fill three normal "spare bedroom"s. Okay, I didn't realize that when he meant a warehouse he literally meant a warehouse crammed wall to wall and just about as high as you could go with with essentially everything. I was rather blown away by the photographs when I finally saw them on Flickr ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533385026/sizes/o/in/photostream/ ). It's like an episode of hoarders only things are a bit more organized. I'll agree that at that point a spare bedroom will be the leasy likely place to store stuff. >In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from >state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply >possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves >having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is >believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale >(auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation >newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil >Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. > >If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them >in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, >and/or unjust enrichment. > >[These are my personal opinions, which are worth exactly what you've >paid for them. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.]// OH! Okay, so there is some reason to complain then. Pardon my previously posted opinion. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 18:19:12 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:19:12 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: Hmm....After some more reflection and discussion, here is my current hypothesis. This seems to fit all the evidence, at least for my situation. The original damage from light causes degraded or free bromides throughout the case from the fire retardants. Retr0Bright only takes these away from the surface layer. However these bromides can migrate fairly freely through the polymer. They don't need light to do this. Migration is probably accelerated in hot conditions. These pre-existing bromines from the original damage migrate to the top and within a few years the surface is yellowed again. If this hypothesis is correct then a UV sealant will not protect the case. Or any sealant maybe. Unless pre-formed bromides from previous light damage can be stopped from migrating to the surface (and I don't know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be temporary. Sound logical? Tez From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 18:38:56 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:38:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? Message-ID: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I don't know or want to know what a bromide is even (sounds like something mum or dad were taking for gas or constipation back in the dawn of time, circa 1972). All I know is if you put warm coffee in a ceramic mug on top of a yellow computer, it erases the yellow, for a few seconds. There's real creepy going on with this stuff, that's all I know. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 15 18:52:59 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:52:59 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I don't know or want to know what a bromide is even (sounds like something mum or dad were taking for gas or constipation back in the dawn of time, circa 1972). All I know is if you put warm coffee in a ceramic mug on top of a yellow computer, it erases the yellow, for a few seconds. There's real creepy going on with this stuff, that's all I know. Sure you do! From a couple of Wikipedia articles: A bromide is a chemical compound containing a bromide ion or ligand. This is a bromine atom with an ionic charge of ?1 in ionic compounds such as caesium bromide, or else a bromine atom with an oxidation number of -1 incovalent compounds such as sulfur dibromide. Bromine is a chemical element with the symbol Br, and atomic number of 35. At high temperatures, organobromine compounds are easily converted to free bromine atoms, a process which acts to terminate free radical chemical chain reactions. This makes such compounds useful fire retardants and this is bromine's primary industrial use, consuming more than half of world production of the element. The same property allows volatile organobromine compounds, under the action of sunlight, to form free bromine atoms in the atmosphere which are highly effective in ozone depletion. TTFN - Guy From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 19:15:48 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:15:48 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <470F6DF3-AADE-4B89-A7E5-AE530E2C54ED@xlisper.com> References: , , , , <470F6DF3-AADE-4B89-A7E5-AE530E2C54ED@xlisper.com> Message-ID: I didnt know anything about the situation until his recent email,and I bet a lot of other list members are in the same situation, I certainly would have bought some items if we had can't say what caused that glitch if it was posted to the list previously.... > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:02:30 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Jan 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. > > Didn't Sellam try to do exactly that? He posted a message here a while ago offering to sell anything in his collection or maybe just things he had duplicates of. In any case, I think he *did* try to sell things to raise money. Maybe there just weren't enough willing buyers. > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 19:21:58 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:21:58 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I don't know or want to know what a bromide is even (sounds like > something mum or dad were taking for gas or constipation back in the > dawn of time, circa 1972). Close, but not quite in cigar territory. Bromo-Seltzer before 1975 contained sodium bromide, which is a mild sedative. When bromides were banned, Bromo-Seltzer kept its name, but now is little more than fizzy Tylenol. Original BS was great for hangovers and headaches. Not so much today. BTW, the term "bromide" for an over-used clich?, comes from the idea that an overworked phrase has the power to put one to sleep, not unlike the effects of sodium bromide. --Chuck From ckblackm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 19:24:28 2013 From: ckblackm at yahoo.com (Christopher Blackmon) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:24:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358299468.29746.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Sellam Ismail To: Classic Computers Mailing List Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 11:25 PM Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items The follow items listed for sale on eBay are STOLEN from the Vintage Computer Festival Archives: *list snipped These items have been reported to eBay as stolen. ------ Did ebay respond to your reporting of the items as being stolen? Christopher. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 15 19:33:49 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:33:49 -0500 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F58845.90401@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.! au> <50F58845.90401@dunnington.plus.co m> Message-ID: <50F6037D.30802@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/01/13 11:48 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/01/2013 02:53, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>>>> the bus. >>>>> >>>>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >>> >>> Mouse is right. >> >> Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? > > I can't remember where it is, but at least one of the QBus documents > describing bus cycles details which signals are active at what times, > including how and when a DMA request can be ack'd. It might be in one > of the processor handbooks. > Yes I have the spec. --Toby From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 15 20:56:21 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:56:21 -0600 Subject: server status Message-ID: All the websites on the classiccmp server that have their own domain name have been migrated. Please test & advise. You can start modifying content again. I'm now working on all the subdirectory websites of classiccmp.org, will let you know when they are done so you can again start modifying any content. Mailman will be done last. J From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 21:20:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:20:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <20130115191931.N60114@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be > temporary. Once again, the answer is Ubik (used as directed) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 21:22:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Close, but not quite in cigar territory. Bromo-Seltzer before 1975 > contained sodium bromide, which is a mild sedative. When bromides were > banned, Bromo-Seltzer kept its name, but now is little more than fizzy > Tylenol. Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 20:15:26 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:15:26 -0600 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: Terry, the retr0bright process (and Merlin) also mentiones "The permanent fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface off from the air." Basically stating the process can eventuall reverse itself it you don't and sealing it with an anti-UV laquer provides "No oxygen, no oxidation." It's a very light acrylic, usually used for preserving paintings/drawings/etc. I've also seen some people mention using Armorall spray or 303 Aerospace Protectant Wipes, On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? > > Yes, as far as I know that is correct, but I'd always assumed (maybe > wrongly) that a reasonable amount of UV light was needed to facilitate > this. Based on what's happened it may be that very little UV (if any) > is needed. In the case of my Retr0Brighted cases....just a few days > exposure per year under florescents (i.e. the time I had the computers > out of the box to play with or test) seemed to be all that was needed. > > Merlin, in his writeup in the Retr0Bright wiki > (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com) does say even low levels from > florescent lights is enough. I'd always assumed this was everyday > exposure though. Perhaps with some plastics UV is not needed at all? > I have heard of cases where people have put a shiny white computer in > a sealed box for storage only to find a cheese-yellow artifact when > they drag it out years later. > > There is something more puzzling. Let's assume yellowing can occur in > the absence of much (or any) UV light. Why then are those cord > markings on the Apple IIe and Vic 20 reappearing? You would have > expected any further yellowing of my cases, even with low levels of > UV, to be consistent across the case surface now the cords are not > there. All surfaces would be exposed to equal amount of oxygen or > brief light. However the cord impressions (which protected the > plastic under them from initial yellowing) are re-appearing? > > The question I have in my mind therefore is "do the changes in the > chemical structure cause by the initial yellowing (OR perhaps the > RetroBrighting itself) make the plastic MORE prone to future 2BR.O > co-ordinant bonds or/and migration of these to the surface of the case > (hence causing yellowing)? " Or is something else going on? > > Whatever is happening, the practical implications are that even brief > and very very low levels of UV seem to be enough to re-yellow > retr0Brighted surfaces over time. There is not enough evidence in my > case to say that UV is not needed AT ALL, as all the units had been > exposed briefly a few times a year, to fluorescent light. > > Tez > -- Marty From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 21:37:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:37:41 -0500 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2013, at 22:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Close, but not quite in cigar territory. Bromo-Seltzer before 1975 >> contained sodium bromide, which is a mild sedative. When bromides were >> banned, Bromo-Seltzer kept its name, but now is little more than fizzy >> Tylenol. > > Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? I grew up in Baltimore and lived there for 25 years (and am quite familiar with the Bromo-Seltzer tower), but I've never seen the drink in any form. Old Bay and Berger cookies, alas, are inescapable there (Berger cookies, for the uninitiated, are inexplicably popular confections that are 50% cookie and 70% frosting, and are endemic to the Baltimore region). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 21:37:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:37:43 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> On 01/15/2013 07:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? Cant say that I've ever been to Baltimore, at least not when I was lucid and conscious. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 22:23:18 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:23:18 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> Message-ID: >Terry, the retr0bright process (and Merlin) also mentiones "The permanent >fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface >off from the air." Basically stating the process can eventuall reverse >itself it you don't and sealing it with an anti-UV laquer provides "No >oxygen, no oxidation." It's a very light acrylic, usually used for >preserving paintings/drawings/etc. >I've also seen some people mention using Armorall spray or 303 Aerospace >Protectant Wipes Yes, this was the current thinking. But given the yellowing seemed to occur with such little light exposure, I wonder if this needs revisiting? The original damage from light causes degraded or free bromides throughout the case from the fire retardants hence yellowing. Merlin says in the Wiki that Retr0Bright only fixes these in the surface layer and that this "cleaned" layer can re-yellow with exposure to UV. Fair enough. However elsewhere in the wiki he also says these bromides can migrate fairly freely through the polymer. Presumably they don't need light to do this. I imagine migration is probably accelerated in hot conditions. My hypothesis as to why re-yellowing occurred in my machines with such little exposure to light was that deeper pre-existing bromines from the original damage (not touched by Retr0Bright) migrated to the top "cleaned" layer and within a few years yellowed the surface again. If this hypothesis is correct then a UV sealant will not protect the case. Or any sealant maybe. Unless pre-formed bromides from previous light damage can be stopped from migrating to the surface (and I don't know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be temporary. Anyway. I have sent Merlin a PM through the VCF to see what his thoughts are on it. It may only be proved by experimentation but the hypotheses seems to fit with what happened. It also fits with what is said about the yellowing process in the Retr0Bits Wiki. Terry (Tez) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 22:38:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:38:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130115203305.B61229@shell.lmi.net> > > Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cant say that I've ever been to Baltimore, at least not when I was lucid > and conscious. Many who see it experience a cognitive dissonance, wherein they see it, but their brains refuse to register what they saw. It is a large traditional clock tower. On the face of the clock, instead of numerals, there are the letters B R O M O S E L T Z E R "The time in Bawlmer is currently M after Z" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 22:48:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130115204146.E61229@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > I grew up in Baltimore and lived there for 25 years (and am > quite familiar with the Bromo-Seltzer tower), but I've never > seen the drink in any form. Old Bay and Berger cookies, alas, > are inescapable there (Berger cookies, for the uninitiated, are > inexplicably popular confections that are 50% cookie and > 70% frosting, and are endemic to the Baltimore region). The last time that I was there was 40 years ago. At that time, the harbor was full of LARGE rats (bigger than cats), not tourists. US40 ran through the city, with cobblestones in some areas, and a few remaining horse-drawn rag-picker carts. All along US40, almost everything was condemned. There was a unique demolition style - they would romove all of the interior doors in a building, and nail those together to create a fence. For block after block after block, the entire block would be a fence of nailed together doors, punctuated at regular intervals by marble doorsteps. I've heard that the city changed soon after that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 23:07:02 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:07:02 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50F63576.50107@sydex.com> On 01/15/2013 07:37 PM, David Riley wrote: > I grew up in Baltimore and lived there for 25 years (and am > quite familiar with the Bromo-Seltzer tower), but I've never > seen the drink in any form. White crystals in a dark blue glass bottle, usually sold wrapped in equally dark blue paper. Dump a capful into a glass and add water, and the mixture results in a vigorous foaming liquid (largely a result of the sodium bicarbonate and citric acid to make the bubbles). More vigorous in action than Alka-Seltzer, which contains basically the same bubble-making agents, but no bromide, all pressed into a slow-dissolving tablet. Seidlitz powder was similar, but used cream of tartar as the acid and resulted in a laxative effect--basically baking powder with a medical attribution. I think all three arose in popularity because people seem to like the effects of dissolved carbon dioxide in their drinks, most especially, beer and sparkling wines--not to mention overpriced spring water. None other than Joseph Priestly figured out a way to dissolve pressurized carbon dioxide in water, thereby inventing seltzer water and giving belated birth to an industry selling carbonated municipal tap water for ridiculous prices,creating piles of plastic bottles littering the nation's byways. --Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jan 16 00:53:06 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:53:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Selling off items to raise money Message-ID: Fortunately, I was able to save for myself several surplus pieces that I had planned to sell to raise money back in December. I was never able to follow through because of the vortex I got sucked into at the time. Since I need the money now more than a shattered collection, I will proceed to sell these pieces. This is what I'm offering right now: Cromemco System 1 w/display, keyboard & (2) 5.25" floppy drives (might have functional hard disk with OS) Cromemco System Three Altair 8800a Altair 8800b Heathkit H11 w/H27 dual drives Teleram T-3000 portable with external 5.25" disk drive I'll get proper descriptions and photos and post them up tomorrow (Wednesday). I'm not terribly keen on shipping things internationally but I will with the right motivation. If you would like to make an initial offer then please e-mail me directly (off-list). I'll take best offers by this Friday. Since I'm motivated to raise a few thousand dollars within the next couple days I will entertain all reasonable offers. Thank you for your consideration. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jan 16 02:06:02 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded Message-ID: Thanks to the watchful eyes of various folks, I have discovered two more eBay sellers selling my stolen property: kaekae_b2011 http://www.ebay.com/sch/kaekae_b2011/m.html?item=121051068738&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 martinezana http://www.ebay.com/csc/martinezana/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc I am going to be contacting eBay legal tomorrow to let them know I'll be adding them to the lawsuit unless they shut down these auctions. Their response should be interesting. Also, for those interested, I uploaded the exhibits to my affidavit: http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ I also uploaded an Opposition declaration that gives some background on what occurred between the two hearings held for the second Temporary Restraining Order application. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From joerg.sigle at jsigle.com Wed Jan 16 03:16:08 2013 From: joerg.sigle at jsigle.com (Joerg M. Sigle) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:16:08 +0100 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Hi Chuck, I just reviewed the datasheets. The pinout appears *mostly* compatible - appart from the fact that the 4116 pin 8 wants +12V, and the 4517 only +5V. The other power supply pins have changed to N.C., so it could be done with a small board change or a small wire by each IC. I was just considering that because I have a machine with 64 x 4116 (and maybe some more in two or three other boards, don't want to look now...), and I would be interested in reducing power dissipation. It may go to 170 mW per chip, ... but while MOSTEK say their 4116 needs up to 1 W max, I just see the TMS4116-20 more probably has 462 mW. So it would save me... 19 W at best. Or less, because the unused power rails cannot simple be turned off - or more, because the PSU is a rather large, old, linear type. Now well - I don't have time; the originals are soldered in, so don't want to ruin the boards anyway. Nor change their original state more than needed for actual repairs. I've already replaced one defective IC of these, so I could at least test compatibility... Has anybody ever replaced memory ICs to save power? Btw., I *might* have to stick with 1 bit RAM in this machine because it might mask individual bits in hardware, IIRC. Kind regards, Joerg On 16.01.2013 06:07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:43:39 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine > Message-ID: <50F5DB9B.9050107 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I posted this on Erik Klein's forum awhile back, but also meant to post > this here. > > Electronics Goldmine has new 2-per-package MCM4517P12 16Kx1 DRAMs for $1 > for two ICs. These are the single-supply version of the 4116 3-rail > devices and I believe, entirely pin-compatible. > > Might be a good deal for someone looking for replacement DRAM. > > http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19239 > > Cheers, > Chuck -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. med. J?rg M. Sigle +41-76-276-8694 http://www.ql-recorder.com +41-32-51-22-944 http://www.jsigle.com Have a lovely day... +49-176-964-35413 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Jan 16 04:02:46 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:02:46 +1300 Subject: My Commodore SX-64 Executive video on YouTube Message-ID: This time it's the Commodore SX-64 Executive to the fore. Just in time for its 30th Anniversary. http://youtu.be/1cGGhtMSxtE Terry (Tez) From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 07:08:50 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:08:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Also, for those interested, I uploaded the exhibits to my affidavit: > > http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ > > I also uploaded an Opposition declaration that gives some background on > what occurred between the two hearings held for the second Temporary > Restraining Order application. Sellam, You are doing yourself no favors at all by acting as your own attorney, particularly if you are going up against an old-boys network who play golf together every weekend. Having been through a nasty round of litigation with a bank who failed to follow their own documented internal procedures and let the bookkeeper for my former business walk away with over $90,000, I have seen first-hand how important representation is. In my case, the judge assigned to the suit had spent his entire private career representing - you guessed it - the bank we were suing. Since it was in the past, this wasn't a direct conflict of interest, but it certainly was a strong indicator we were in an uphill fight. Left to our own devices, we would have come away with nothing. Thanks to an aggressive attorney we negotiated a $50k settlement. Worth it in my book. Please reconsider what you are doing. Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:19:13 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:19:13 -0200 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: > Now well - I don't have time; the originals are soldered in, so don't > want to ruin the boards anyway. Nor change their original state more > than needed for actual repairs. I've already replaced one defective IC > of these, so I could at least test compatibility... For me it is STUPIDITY to solder memories on board. They fail, and when they fail, they FAIL. I'd take all of them out with a professional desolder station, replace it with sockets and using whatever memory you feel like. This is something I'm quite used to do. I'm on a slow network to find direct links, but look at http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com for the ZX-80 and Gradiente Expert (MSX) computers all-chips-removed-board-restored-and-turned-pin-socketted-treatment From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:16:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:16:07 -0200 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F63576.50107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0A95AB339DC94427B762E5F1518D2216@tababook> > beer and sparkling wines--not to mention overpriced spring water. None > other than Joseph Priestly figured out a way to dissolve pressurized > carbon dioxide in water, thereby inventing seltzer water and giving > belated birth to an industry selling carbonated municipal tap water for > ridiculous prices,creating piles of plastic bottles littering the nation's > byways. Hmmm...There is something I never thought of, and it is interesting to do...I use to drink lots of carbonated water =D From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:45:06 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:45:06 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <17079D9C-2589-48B4-9A61-C1908C21EA83@shiresoft.com> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> <17079D9C-2589-48B4-9A61-C1908C21EA83@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > I think what's missing here is that Sellam's "storage" was a warehouse and > not > a storage locker(s) (ie Public Storage and their ilk). It was > "commercial" property > and as such there was a lease. If not in fact, then implied (if implied > then CA > statutes still apply to a "default" lease arrangement). That connotes a > set of legal > conditions on the landlord (as well as the tenant). > > Ah, this makes sense now. I missed the commercial part. I withdraw my earlier criticism. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:59:35 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:59:35 -0500 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2013, at 4:16 AM, "Joerg M. Sigle" wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > I just reviewed the datasheets. The pinout appears *mostly* compatible - > appart from the fact that the 4116 pin 8 wants +12V, and the 4517 only > +5V. The other power supply pins have changed to N.C., so it could be > done with a small board change or a small wire by each IC. > > I was just considering that because I have a machine with 64 x 4116 (and > maybe some more in two or three other boards, don't want to look > now...), and I would be interested in reducing power dissipation. And reliability (which is probably directly correlated with power dissipation). > Has anybody ever replaced memory ICs to save power? > Btw., I *might* have to stick with 1 bit RAM in this machine because it > might mask individual bits in hardware, IIRC. For reliability, sure. Lots of people with 4116 boards make the appropriate mods (or build up dozens of adaptor PCBs) to install 4164s in their place. You're only using 1/4 of the memory, but the massively increased reliability is worth it for a lot of people (I got two Defender board sets, and the ONLY bad ICs on them were one burned out 74LS138 and about eight dead 4116s. You do save a lot of power, too, but aside from heat issues (which can, of course, be important), the power draw isn't always as consequential for people running vintage hardware. It is a lot nicer to old power supplies, though, and it can get rid of a pesky -5v rail on the board that's often not used for anything else. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 09:17:07 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:17:07 -0500 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <20130115204146.E61229@shell.lmi.net> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <20130115204146.E61229@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8B0791B8-E199-4F6B-98E6-4729737AF92B@gmail.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 11:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The last time that I was there was 40 years ago. At that time, > the harbor was full of LARGE rats (bigger than cats), not tourists. > US40 ran through the city, with cobblestones in some areas, > and a few remaining horse-drawn rag-picker carts. All along > US40, almost everything was condemned. There was a unique > demolition style - they would romove all of the interior doors > in a building, and nail those together to create a fence. For > block after block after block, the entire block would be a fence > of nailed together doors, punctuated at regular intervals by marble > doorsteps. The rats are still there and still that big, but generally not in the Harbor area. 40 isn't all *that* different, and you can get a tour of the various stages of urban blight and renewal by taking it across the city. It's fascinating, actually, especially because a lot of buildings and signs dating back to the '30s are still there (though obviously in a state of disrepair). > I've heard that the city changed soon after that. Sort of. It never really got on its feet, because it never got the hang of street-level commerce with upper-level residential areas (or proper mass transit, for that matter). Philadelphia (well, my part of Philadelphia) is a massive improvement. - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 16 10:22:42 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:22:42 -0600 Subject: Radio Shack Pocket Computer TRS-80 for sale Message-ID: <002701cdf405$b5f887b0$21e99710$@com> Catalog number 26-3501, batteries work, powers on, basic arithmetic functions work. I have not tested it further. There is some darkening of the display, mostly on the top left side. Includes Radio Shack vinyl case and fold-up TRS-80 Pocket Computer Reference Card. $100 plus shipping takes it away. Well packed, the weight will be about 2 pounds. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6037 - Release Date: 01/16/13 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 16 10:34:51 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:34:51 -0800 Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:06 AM -0800 1/16/13, Sellam Ismail wrote: >I am going to be contacting eBay legal tomorrow to let them know I'll be >adding them to the lawsuit unless they shut down these auctions. Their >response should be interesting. > >Also, for those interested, I uploaded the exhibits to my affidavit: > >http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ > >I also uploaded an Opposition declaration that gives some background on >what occurred between the two hearings held for the second Temporary >Restraining Order application. You need to stop travelling down this road you are on, and get real legal representation. You do not want to be threatening a Corporation such as eBay without a good team of Lawyers behind you. Honestly my fear is that your actions already done irreparable harm to any chance you might have of getting your property back. Please seek out Legal Representation before you also do irreparable harm to your life as well. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jan 16 10:49:45 2013 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:49:45 +0000 Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16 January 2013 16:34, Zane H. Healy wrote > > You need to stop travelling down this road you are on, and get real legal > representation. You do not want to be threatening a Corporation such as > eBay without a good team of Lawyers behind you. Honestly my fear is that > your actions already done irreparable harm to any chance you might have of > getting your property back. Please seek out Legal Representation before you > also do irreparable harm to your life as well. > I have to concur. From a UK perspective: Without going into details, we are currently in legal battles getting money back off someone, and whilst, so far, we've done everything ourselves (successfully, if slowly) the defendant has been representing himself too. The judges have for the most part been sympathetic and have taken our lack of experience into account. The moment however that he does find himself a solicitor willing to take on his case (he had one drop out already once we explained matters to them), then we'll have to do the same. I've dealt with the professionals in the past, and they are mostly akin to playground bullies, and delight at stomping on the amateurs. Don't let yourself get into that situation. Rob From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 16 11:43:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:43:51 -0700 Subject: Retrofitting for power savings (was: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine) In-Reply-To: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: In article <50F66FD8.3040203 at jsigle.com>, "Joerg M. Sigle" writes: > It may go to 170 mW per chip, ... but while MOSTEK say their 4116 needs > up to 1 W max, I just see the TMS4116-20 more probably has 462 mW. So it > would save me... 19 W at best. Or less, because the unused power rails > cannot simple be turned off - or more, because the PSU is a rather > large, old, linear type. Won't you get more savings by replacing the linear PSU with a switching PSU? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 16 11:53:26 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:53:26 -0700 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: In article , David Riley writes: > For reliability, sure. Lots of people with 4116 boards make the > appropriate mods (or build up dozens of adaptor PCBs) to install > 4164s in their place. [...] It seems that these little adapter circuit boards would be useful to have from a standard source. At the very least, it would be nice to have open source hardware designs for them. Is anyone doing that? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jan 16 12:19:37 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:19:37 -0600 Subject: DEC R82-HDA for sale Message-ID: <007201cdf416$0b057fa0$21107ee0$@com> I have one very large old hard drive here, made by DEC. The front face plate is missing. The drive inside says R82-HDA. PN 70-21170-01 The complete unit is an RA82, I believe. Looks like the one in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfskSzKBnWA Except for the face plate, it appears complete. This unit is on rails, and came out of an old server years ago. It will have to ship on a pallet. Make offers? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6037 - Release Date: 01/16/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 13:13:17 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:13:17 -0500 Subject: Retrofitting for power savings (was: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine) In-Reply-To: References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Richard wrote: > "Joerg M. Sigle" writes: > >> It may go to 170 mW per chip, ... but while MOSTEK say their 4116 needs >> up to 1 W max, I just see the TMS4116-20 more probably has 462 mW. So it >> would save me... 19 W at best. Or less, because the unused power rails >> cannot simple be turned off - or more, because the PSU is a rather >> large, old, linear type. > > Won't you get more savings by replacing the linear PSU with a switching PSU? Depends on the relative efficiency of the linear vs. the switcher at the given output voltage, and how much power is being run through the power supply. Usually the answer is yes, but it can also be the case that you're primarily concerned about the power dissipated by the board itself because it can cause more heat (and thus reliability) issues; obviously, whichever saves the most power will also produce the least overall heat, but the heat generated by the PSU is often vented out of the box a lot more efficiently (not always). - Dave From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jan 16 13:20:14 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:20:14 -0800 Subject: Part for Hitachi 6800 emulator available... Message-ID: <20130116112014.21ee8109@asrock.bcwi.net> I recently acquired (3) NOS H62EPC1 keyboards for Hitachi's 6800 emulator. In appearance they look like calculator keyboards. See: ftp://bickleywest.com/hitachi/H62EPC1.jpg If you have an need for one or more, let me know off-list. Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 13:36:33 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:36:33 -0500 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: <8528E438-9265-470A-B8F6-BEFA1A911BD5@gmail.com> On Jan 16, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > David Riley writes: > >> For reliability, sure. Lots of people with 4116 boards make the >> appropriate mods (or build up dozens of adaptor PCBs) to install >> 4164s in their place. [...] > > It seems that these little adapter circuit boards would be useful to > have from a standard source. At the very least, it would be nice to > have open source hardware designs for them. Is anyone doing that? I swear I saw the PCBs somewhere, but perhaps I dreamed them up; this little hack is easy enough to do straight on the chip, but it would be a pain to do the NCs with through-hole parts unless you offset the board by 100 mil (which would cause spacing problems in a lot of closely-spaced RAM arrays): http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/gifs/4164hack.gif The other thing that is often done is to convert the board en masse to 4164s by rewiring the power supplies, but that relies on the +12v and -5v supplies being unused by the rest of the system (as is the case with Defender, but quite probably not with other boards): http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliams4164.html You could make an adaptor board by stacking two boards with a header running up through the center (I've seen similar things with EEPROM burner adaptors), but it's a bit clunky and it can be difficult to keep the two layers' back-side pins from touching. Still doable, though, which is better than not. The other thing to do is alter an IC socket as a "pass-through adaptor" to do what the above animated GIF specifies. That's easy enough to do and doesn't run the risk of forcing the holes of your target socket too wide (as with .025" square-post pins). Can be quite a bit of work to make sure the NC socket pins don't contact the target socket pins, but it's doable. - Dave From curador at museudocomputador.com.br Wed Jan 16 05:30:30 2013 From: curador at museudocomputador.com.br (curador) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:30:30 -0200 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <50F593EF.6040902@bitsavers.org> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> <50F593EF.6040902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al , I speak English, what is the problem? Jose carlos 2013/1/15 Al Kossow > On 1/15/13 9:28 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> Sorry, I don't follow you. >> > > It was clear from our phone conversation that we don't speak the same > language. > > > > > -- *E-mail do facebook: jose.c.valle at facebook.com * *Cel CLARO: 9-8874-0100* *Cel VIVO: 9-9562-0211* *Cel: TIM : 9-5142-5559* *SKYPE: JOSECVALLE* *Twitter: @curadordomuseu* *curador at museudocomputador.com.br* *josecvalle at gmail.com* * * From blake at arahant.com Wed Jan 16 08:39:38 2013 From: blake at arahant.com (Blake McBride) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:39:38 -0600 Subject: Video TECO Message-ID: Greetings, I am a teco enthusiast too. Saw you made some patched to Cantrel's video teco. Do you have a latest version with any patches? Thanks. Blake McBride From pinball at telus.net Wed Jan 16 11:49:46 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:49:46 -0800 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: <50F6E83A.1050304@telus.net> Joerg M. Sigle wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > I just reviewed the datasheets. The pinout appears *mostly* compatible - > appart from the fact that the 4116 pin 8 wants +12V, and the 4517 only > +5V. The other power supply pins have changed to N.C., so it could be > done with a small board change or a small wire by each IC. > > I was just considering that because I have a machine with 64 x 4116 (and > maybe some more in two or three other boards, don't want to look > now...), and I would be interested in reducing power dissipation. > > It may go to 170 mW per chip, ... but while MOSTEK say their 4116 needs > up to 1 W max, I just see the TMS4116-20 more probably has 462 mW. So it > would save me... 19 W at best. Or less, because the unused power rails > cannot simple be turned off - or more, because the PSU is a rather > large, old, linear type. > > Now well - I don't have time; the originals are soldered in, so don't > want to ruin the boards anyway. Nor change their original state more > than needed for actual repairs. I've already replaced one defective IC > of these, so I could at least test compatibility... > > Has anybody ever replaced memory ICs to save power? > Btw., I *might* have to stick with 1 bit RAM in this machine because it > might mask individual bits in hardware, IIRC. > > Kind regards, Joerg > People have replaced 4116s with 4164s after cutting the -5 and +12 supply lines to the RAM banks to improve reliability: http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliams4164.html The above link is for converting a video game motherboard power connector to eliminate the -5/+12 lines without cutting lines on the motherboard. There is also a link there for simply replacing single 4116s with 4164s: http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/gifs/4164hack.gif Note that the 4164 is not using the entire device's memory - only 16k is actually used. Enabling the other 48k would require more wiring and these RAM chips are extremely inexpensive so using three banks of them is much cheaper than rewiring one bank to 48k (time, eh?). John :-#)# > On 16.01.2013 06:07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Message: 5 >> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:43:39 -0800 >> From: Chuck Guzis >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine >> Message-ID: <50F5DB9B.9050107 at sydex.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> I posted this on Erik Klein's forum awhile back, but also meant to post >> this here. >> >> Electronics Goldmine has new 2-per-package MCM4517P12 16Kx1 DRAMs for $1 >> for two ICs. These are the single-supply version of the 4116 3-rail >> devices and I believe, entirely pin-compatible. >> >> Might be a good deal for someone looking for replacement DRAM. >> >> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19239 >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > > From js at cimmeri.com Wed Jan 16 13:49:03 2013 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:49:03 -0500 Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F7042F.9050806@cimmeri.com> First, what a horrible, horrible thing to be going through, Sellam. I can't imagine the stress and shock you must be enduring right now. Like several people have said, despite your preferences on the matter, you really do need a pit-bull "good old boy" lawyer to go out and get this matter under control asap. You need to do this pronto. Only a good ole boy can work things out with good ole boys. You need a lawyer well connected, who golfs with the judges, etc. The more expensive, the better (unfortunately but true). Next, did you have insurance on your facility? If so, I presume you've contacted them? Ideally, if you had insurance, they'd fight the entire battle for you. If you did not, this will stand as an extremely painful lesson in the risks of not carrying it. I don't know you at all, but I feel for you. Things like this don't happen because we want them to or really through negligence.. they just sometimes are forced upon us by circumstance. Sell, sell, sell. Get money. Get a lawyer. You will not win this by yourself.. and if you are in a highly conservative area, even just your name (sadly) is going to hinder you. Best of luck. John S. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 14:10:24 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:10:24 -0500 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: <50F6E83A.1050304@telus.net> References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> <50F6E83A.1050304@telus.net> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, John Robertson wrote: > People have replaced 4116s with 4164s after cutting the -5 and +12 supply lines to the RAM banks to improve reliability: > > http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliams4164.html > > The above link is for converting a video game motherboard power connector to eliminate the -5/+12 lines without cutting lines on the motherboard. As I mentioned in my other email (which might not have made it through yet), that method works as long as the -5 and +12 aren't used elsewhere in the system, and as long as the +5 can be safely rerouted to the +12 rail. That is true of Defender (because the regulated +12v and the -5v are only used on the RAM; the audio board makes use of the unregulated +12v as do some others), but is less of a safe bet on more complex systems. Really handy on most early Williams boards, though. :-) - Dave From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 14:17:34 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:17:34 -0800 Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: <50F7042F.9050806@cimmeri.com> References: <50F7042F.9050806@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <50F70ADE.7090303@gmail.com> On 1/16/2013 11:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Sell, sell, sell. Get money. Get a lawyer. You will not win this > by yourself.. and if you are in a highly conservative area, even just > your name (sadly) is going to hinder you. > > Best of luck. > John S. He is unfortunately in one of the most conservative areas of California with a legal system riddled with good ol boy lawyers and judges. Couldn't be a worse place to fight a landlord in California. Really there couldn't be. The only more conservative place in the state is a wealthier area down south who's legal system is a lot more upscale and professional then this backwards wasteland of farms, factories, and cheap instant subdivisions. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 14:31:33 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:31:33 -0500 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: <8528E438-9265-470A-B8F6-BEFA1A911BD5@gmail.com> References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> <8528E438-9265-470A-B8F6-BEFA1A911BD5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:36 PM, David Riley wrote: > I swear I saw the PCBs somewhere, but perhaps I dreamed them up; > this little hack is easy enough to do straight on the chip... > > http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/gifs/4164hack.gif You can cut the pin off at the shoulder and leave just enough stub left to tack the jumper wire and run it over the top, even in a dense RAM array. Just don't try to solder past the bend and it should fit. The solder and wire bump will be up, not sticking out the side. > The other thing that is often done is to convert the board en > masse to 4164s by rewiring the power supplies, but that relies > on the +12v and -5v supplies being unused by the rest of the > system (as is the case with Defender, but quite probably not > with other boards): I've seen some that could be hacked that way, but yes, not all. Dynamic PETs, for one, only use -5V for the RAM array. Remove the 7905 and it should be safe. I'd have to check the schematics for +12V but IIRC, it's not used anywhere else. IIRC, the tape drive motor is powered from another part of the PSU. > The other thing to do is alter an IC socket as a "pass-through > adaptor" to do what the above animated GIF specifies. That's > easy enough to do and doesn't run the risk of forcing the holes > of your target socket too wide (as with .025" square-post pins). > Can be quite a bit of work to make sure the NC socket pins > don't contact the target socket pins, but it's doable. If you poke the two pins out of a machined-pin socket with a hot soldering iron, you only have to ensure the 4164 pin doesn't extend below the plastic socket shell and you won't get -5V or +12V where you don't want it. You'd still want to carefully solder the jumper wire to the DRAM to avoid lateral shorts, but you could try soldering _under_ the chip into the 90-degree bend of the legs and the wire would be protected from the board by the adapter socket. Given how easy 4164s are to get compared to 4116s, I don't mind clipping pins or soldering wires to them. I do have a small pad of spare 4116s, but if I really had to replace a bunch, I'd probably sacrifice a necessary number of 4164s for the older hardware. It's not like I'm melting them down by the pound. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 14:46:52 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:46:52 -0500 Subject: Retrofitting for power savings (was: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine) In-Reply-To: References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Richard wrote: > Won't you get more savings by replacing the linear PSU with a switching PSU? CompuServe did. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 16 14:55:23 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:55:23 -0800 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> <8528E438-9265-470A-B8F6-BEFA1A911BD5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F713BB.5020809@sydex.com> My thought was that if you couldn't simply connect the +12 supply line to +5 for the entire board, you could at least locate the supply trace for the DRAM array, cut it, and wire it to +5. It's unlikely to be hooked to a buried PCB plane. FWIW, I thought the price wasn't bad for NOS low-power devices. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 15:00:02 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:00:02 -0500 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: <50F713BB.5020809@sydex.com> References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> <8528E438-9265-470A-B8F6-BEFA1A911BD5@gmail.com> <50F713BB.5020809@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My thought was that if you couldn't simply connect the +12 supply line to +5 for the entire board, you could at least locate the supply trace for the DRAM array, cut it, and wire it to +5. It's unlikely to be hooked to a buried PCB plane. > > FWIW, I thought the price wasn't bad for NOS low-power devices. No, that price is excellent. It's about half what Jameco charges for 4116s in single quantity, and they're the most reasonable I commonly see (but maybe I look in the wrong places). - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jan 16 15:10:25 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:10:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1358370625.48482.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis Original BS was great for hangovers and headaches.? Not so much today. --Chuck C: I'll refrain from parsing that statement too carefully. ??? In my earlier days, when I drank, I never really had a hangover. Nothing to speak of anyway, nothing that the previous day's cold pizza and pink lemonade wouldn't cure anyway. My sister woke up w/a hangover one day, and I told her what I had for breakfast (that). The hearing was enough to make her toss her cookies. From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Jan 16 16:13:19 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:13:19 +0100 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <20130115191931.N60114@shell.lmi.net> References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> <20130115191931.N60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201301162213.r0GMDJ18019009@ls-al.eu> Fred Cisin wrote: > > Once again, the answer is Ubik (used as directed) > :) From technobug at comcast.net Wed Jan 16 16:25:58 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:25:58 -0700 Subject: Quatech WSB-100-20 Arbitrary Waveorm Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19763A44-9AC5-47FA-BFF5-C114BF65D32C@comcast.net> Going through the attic and found an old industrial PC with four Quatech boards (lower board in ). These are 16-bit, ISA cards. If anyone is interested, they are available for $20 plus shipping from 85704. I will include a 60MB IDE drive with software that was used to display data along with control the cards. ->CRC From technobug at comcast.net Wed Jan 16 16:54:19 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:54:19 -0700 Subject: Quatech WSB-100-20 Arbitrary Waveorm Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1840B31D-B951-42D4-966F-E524316C52E8@comcast.net> > Going through the attic and found an old industrial PC with four Quatech boards (lower board in ). These are 16-bit, ISA cards. They've been had ->CRC From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 16 17:13:12 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:13:12 -0500 Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F73408.20909@verizon.net> On 1/16/2013 11:34 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:06 AM -0800 1/16/13, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> I am going to be contacting eBay legal tomorrow to let them know I'll be >> adding them to the lawsuit unless they shut down these auctions. Their >> response should be interesting. > You need to stop travelling down this road you are on, and get real > legal representation. You do not want to be threatening a Corporation > such as eBay without a good team of Lawyers behind you. Honestly my fear > is that your actions already done irreparable harm to any chance you > might have of getting your property back. Please seek out Legal > Representation before you also do irreparable harm to your life as well. > > Zane Zane is right here! I've read through most of the documents. You really need to get a lawyer. As heartbreaking as this might be, you are probably already past the point of getting your stuff back. I noticed that many items have already sold on ebay. Once this stuff ships you're basically screwed. Long story short, I can't imagine a set of circumstances where the buyers would ever be forced to return the items. No judge is going to react to your "explanations for failure to act on your own behalf." Whether you are too tired to move it, too stressed out due to your house, whether there was a holiday(Thanksgiving?), whether your forklift broke, whether your crew had the flu, whether your papers got wet, and the host of other reasons you've given for why you couldn't get the stuff out after multiple notices, extensions, over a pretty extended period of time. The judges are also going to ask why you didn't bother showing up to your hearing based on the motion that you filed. You wasted the judges time and also the defendant's. You're not doing yourself any favors here. They can't give your argument merit in your absence. If the good ole boy network scares you in your county, EBay lawyers are going to have a field day with you. I tried pulling the documents for the case, but it appears that while the docket entries are available for your case on your counties' site --- the individual documents are not. You also have to remember that in civil law cases, that the burden of proof is on the Plaintiff to prove each element. Being a Pro Se defendant is easier than being a Pro Se Plaintiff. I have a feeling that most attorneys aren't going to want to touch this case with a ten foot pole. I wish you luck in May (was it 13th? 14th?) --- and I hope, for your sake, that I'm all wrong about the above.... Get a lawyer! I'm sure as hell not one! Keith From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 16 18:08:18 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:08:18 -0500 Subject: FW: [N8VEM: 15283] Re: SCSI2IDE Progress In-Reply-To: References: <5f20ce3d-468f-4997-bd80-eea733ebd02e@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <004801cdf446$c0f34970$42d9dc50$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! I think this is of general interest to the vintage/classic/hobbyist computer community. We are getting very close to a fully functional free and open source SCSI-1 to IDE (including CF adapters) and SD bridge board. There have been several discoveries during the build and test phase and we will be getting a second set of prototype boards soon that include all the fixes (including optional terminating resistors, various fixes and improvements, etc). Please see the photos of the test harness and the board responding to a PC SCSI-1 controller identify command. This board is being targeted to the most oldest SASI and/or SCSI-1 equipped machines. Generally speaking newer SCSI drives are still available and/or commercial SCSI to IDE bridges exist already so this board would not be necessary. It is primarily intended for the most ancient SASI/SCSI-1 machines such as early Mac, Atari, Amiga, Apple II, DEC, Sun, Apollo, various CP/M single board computers, sewing machines, synthesizers, lab and/or test equipment, etc with specialized SASI and/or SCSI-1 requirements. Occasionally these older machines require specific SASI and/or SCSI-1 drives to operate which may no longer be available. Since the bridge board is free/open source the identification strings and/or firmware can be modified to emulate these older devices. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From: n8vem at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Warthen Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:20 PM To: n8vem at googlegroups.com Subject: [N8VEM: 15283] Re: SCSI2IDE Progress More progress this weekend. Still a long way to go, but this is good stuff. I have been able to exchange data with a host initiator to the point where the host knows the target is there and basic information like it's name and capacity. Here are links to some pictures I just posted on the Wiki. I can see the host asking for a "READ DATA" command now, but have not had time to implement it, but very close. S2I Test Harness shows my SCSI2IDE board connected to my Xi 8088 (thanks Sergey!) via a Future Domain SCSI Controller. S2I LUN Discovery shows a boot screen demonstrating the Future Domain Controller BIOS finding the SCSI2IDE board and successfully determining it's sector size. SCSI2IDE Board just shows the board itself. Thanks, Wayne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "N8VEM" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/n8vem/-/yoF3FPjgBX4J. To post to this group, send email to n8vem at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to n8vem+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem?hl=en. From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 14:52:44 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:52:44 -0600 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> Message-ID: If that's the case and your hypothesis is correct, that would mean the computers that haven't experienced the reversal didn't have as deep of bromides. Then it might also be fair to say that the ones that have deeper penetration will continue to cycle them to the surface and that anual re-retr0briting will eventually cause the process to stop? On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >Terry, the retr0bright process (and Merlin) also mentiones "The permanent > >fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface > >off from the air." Basically stating the process can eventuall reverse > >itself it you don't and sealing it with an anti-UV laquer provides "No > >oxygen, no oxidation." It's a very light acrylic, usually used for > >preserving paintings/drawings/etc. > > >I've also seen some people mention using Armorall spray or 303 Aerospace > >Protectant Wipes > > Yes, this was the current thinking. But given the yellowing seemed to > occur with such little light exposure, I wonder if this needs > revisiting? > > The original damage from light causes degraded or free bromides > throughout the case from the fire retardants hence yellowing. Merlin > says in the Wiki that Retr0Bright only fixes these in the surface > layer and that this "cleaned" layer can re-yellow with exposure to UV. > Fair enough. However elsewhere in the wiki he also says these > bromides can migrate fairly freely through the polymer. Presumably > they don't need light to do this. I imagine migration is probably > accelerated in hot conditions. > > My hypothesis as to why re-yellowing occurred in my machines with such > little exposure to light was that deeper pre-existing bromines from > the original damage (not touched by Retr0Bright) migrated to the top > "cleaned" layer and within a few years yellowed the surface again. > > If this hypothesis is correct then a UV sealant will not protect the > case. Or any sealant maybe. Unless pre-formed bromides from previous > light damage can be stopped from migrating to the surface (and I don't > know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be > temporary. > > Anyway. I have sent Merlin a PM through the VCF to see what his > thoughts are on it. It may only be proved by experimentation but the > hypotheses seems to fit with what happened. It also fits with what is > said about the yellowing process in the Retr0Bits Wiki. > > Terry (Tez) > -- Marty From greg.casamento at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 15:35:36 2013 From: greg.casamento at gmail.com (Gregory Casamento) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:35:36 -0500 Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers Message-ID: Do you, by chance, still have one of these? If not, do you know the email of the person who ended up getting them? Thanks, GC -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 16 16:35:06 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:35:06 -0800 Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: <50F70ADE.7090303@gmail.com> References: <50F7042F.9050806@cimmeri.com> <50F70ADE.7090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F72B1A.4060200@jwsss.com> On 1/16/2013 12:17 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Get money. Get a lawyer. I doubt he has the first. The second probably won't take it on contingency because there isn't case law clearly favoring a monetary outcome. So it will take a lot of the first, and up front to even start. I do hope he does get good representation. Hopefully he could appeal to a forum such as newspapers and media to get more coverage, as this isn't an isolated problem, and merits some exposure. That usually sends the cockroaches scurrying to the corners if there is sufficient light. I do hope for him to recover his property or more of it if possible. Jim From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jan 16 23:51:52 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:51:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located Message-ID: Again, thanks to to eagle eyes of some faithful watchers out there, I've been able to identify another eBay seller of my stolen archives: eBay seller ID "appliancealley" http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html For those who have been suggesting professional legal counsel, you should be happy to know that I am speaking with such tomorrow. Thank you for your concerns. I'll let you know what they're able to offer to me. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jan 17 01:37:58 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:37:58 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> Message-ID: > If that's the case and your hypothesis is correct, that would mean the > computers that haven't experienced the reversal didn't have as deep of > bromides. Then it might also be fair to say that the ones that have deeper > penetration will continue to cycle them to the surface and that anual > re-retr0briting will eventually cause the process to stop? Yes, that would seem a logical conclusion. Cheers Terry From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Thu Jan 17 10:41:00 2013 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:41:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: server migration Message-ID: <201301171641.r0HGf09W006360@huey.classiccmp.org> Ok, all the data for the classiccmp.org subdirectories has been moved. I will be switching the A record for classiccmp.org to the new server sometime today. I'll announce after it is done, and at that point people can again start modifying content of their sites whenever they wish. Important to note... I have not migrated the mailman/email stuff for classiccmp.org yet. That means several things... Once the website is moved, it will appear that the archives are not being updated or unavailable. Fear not, nothing is being lost. All the mail goes to the 'old' server and thus won't show up in the list archives. Whenever I move the mail, then the archives will automatically re-appear with all the traffic. Our front-end mail systems are not yet proven, so classiccmp will be the first test of that new infrastructure. Given the complexity of the new environment, this will be "target rich" for "issues". I will do the best I can as quickly as possible to resolve any issues. Best, J From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 17 12:16:47 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:16:47 -0800 Subject: server migration In-Reply-To: <201301171641.r0HGf09W006360@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <201301171641.r0HGf09W006360@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <50F8400F.9060503@bitsavers.org> On 1/17/13 8:41 AM, Jay West wrote: > Important to note... I have not migrated the mailman/email stuff for classiccmp.org yet. That means several things... > Were you going to restore mailing list archive search at some point? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 17 12:21:44 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:21:44 -0800 Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> On 1/16/13 1:35 PM, Gregory Casamento wrote: > Do you, by chance, still have one of these? If not, do you know the email > of the person who ended up getting them? > > Thanks, GC > ? FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers Ryan Blair blairrya at msu.edu Tue Jun 14 23:15:12 CDT 2005 <<<<----- I was just trying to figure out why I hadn't seen the original. Is there any way to disable replies to posts over 5 years old?? From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 17 12:59:37 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:59:37 +0100 Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> References: <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50F84A19.5050101@update.uu.se> On 01/17/2013 07:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/16/13 1:35 PM, Gregory Casamento wrote: >> Do you, by chance, still have one of these? If not, do you know the >> email >> of the person who ended up getting them? >> >> Thanks, GC >> F > > ? > > FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers > Ryan Blair blairrya at msu.edu > Tue Jun 14 23:15:12 CDT 2005 <<<<----- > > I was just trying to figure out why I hadn't seen the original. > > Is there any way to disable replies to posts over 5 years old?? > This happens quite often, also notice the personal nature of the original mail. Does the sender even realize this is a mailing list? /P From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 17 15:17:48 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:17:48 -0800 Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: <50F84A19.5050101@update.uu.se> References: <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> <50F84A19.5050101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50F86A7C.409@bitsavers.org> On 1/17/13 10:59 AM, Pontus wrote: > Does the sender even realize this is a mailing list? > How do these replies even GET on the list? Is there some bug that lets any random person reply to an existing message? From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Thu Jan 17 15:26:26 2013 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:26:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: server migration In-Reply-To: <50F8400F.9060503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201301172126.r0HLQQSW008577@huey.classiccmp.org> I was not aware there was an issue with that. I know it WAS working at some point. I will make a note to look in to that when mail is migrated. J From drb at msu.edu Thu Jan 17 15:29:39 2013 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:29:39 -0500 Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:21:44 PST.) <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> References: <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20130117212939.81841A580E3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Is there any way to disable replies to posts over 5 years old?? Probably the same technology that disables top posting, failing to trim posts, double sigging, and such will cover that. :) De From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 17 21:04:08 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:04:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: <50F84A19.5050101@update.uu.se> References: <50F84138.8020703@bitsavers.org> <50F84A19.5050101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201301180304.WAA11382@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Tue Jun 14 23:15:12 CDT 2005 <<<<----- >> Is there any way to disable replies to posts over 5 years old?? > This happens quite often, also notice the personal nature of the > original mail. Does the sender even realize this is a mailing list? Quite possibly not. I've seen a fair number of posts from non-members which quite clearly are under the impression the list address actually is some individual's address.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 17 21:12:23 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:12:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: <201301180304.WAA11382@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Jan 17, 13 10:04:08 pm" Message-ID: <201301180312.r0I3CNuP25493550@floodgap.com> > >> Is there any way to disable replies to posts over 5 years old?? > > > This happens quite often, also notice the personal nature of the > > original mail. Does the sender even realize this is a mailing list? > > Quite possibly not. I've seen a fair number of posts from non-members > which quite clearly are under the impression the list address actually > is some individual's address.... Charles C. Talk -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- C. McCabe - From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 05:45:17 2013 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:45:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD project Message-ID: <1358509517.27559.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi We've made some real progress on the SCSI to IDE/SD project (aka S2I). It is a completely free/open source project entirely volunteer community project. By hobbyists for hobbyists! There have been many improvements and fixes found in the build and test that I've incorporated into a second version of the hardware board. Many thanks to our friends at SEBHC project. I estimate it will cost about $200 for another batch of prototype/pre-production boards. So far we've raised about $50 thanks to help from 68kMLA friends. We are constantly looking for additional developers. If you would like to help develop the S2I project to support your particular application please contact me. In particular, I would like to see development to support the very oldest SASI and/or SCSI-1 systems with unique requirements. That would demonstrate the benefits of customization of a free/open source project a commercial product never could/would support. Also if you would be interested in sponsoring our next batch of boards please contact me. Even small contributions would be greatly appreciated and help us toward a new set of boards. I would really like to reduce the cost burden to the builders who are already contributing their time and skills to help make this project available to everyone. Even if you disagree with this particular implementation of a S2I bridge board, the project is useful to the larger hobbyist community because it is creating valuable design information and source code which can be used in subsequent follow on projects. I have ideas for additional improvements and other applications but we have to get past this initial board hurdle first. Like all the N8VEM projects, all the information hardware, software, parts list, BOM, build instructions, photos, etc will be publicly posted and freely available to anyone. S2I is the only free/open source SCSI to IDE/SD project I am know of that's gotten to this stage. Please consider supporting this project. If you would like additional information you can reach me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM There is additional information on the S2I project at the N8VEM wiki http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI%20to%20IDE%2FSD%20prototypes Discussion on the S2I project is on the N8VEM mailing list http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thank you in advance for your consideration. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 13:01:27 2013 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:01:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: MacWorld 30 years of the apple lisa and the apple iie Message-ID: <1358535687.686.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://www.macworld.com/article/2025408/30-years-of-the-apple-lisa-and-the-apple-iie.html From dan at ekoan.com Fri Jan 18 14:01:25 2013 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:01:25 -0500 Subject: ASR 33 Teletype in Southern California (US) Message-ID: <50F9AA15.103@ekoan.com> This message appeared on the Greenkeys list. It's not mine and I'm on the opposite coast anyway, but for those of you looking for a classic I/O device at a less-than-eBay price, this may be of interest. Please contact Jason directly. ---------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------------ Subject: 33 ASR for sale, Burbank, CA Hi all, I am in project-reduction mode. I'm not going to do anything with this 33 ASR, or I should say, I haven't done anything with it, so I'm offering it for sale. I'd be thrilled to get my $40 back out of it. Pictures of it when I got it, looks exactly the same, starting here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kf6pqt/page3/ I can reassemble it back into a single unit, or leave it in its state seen, depending on preference of the new owner. I will be selling junk out at the Chino Hills swap meet tomorrow morning, I'd prefer NOT to bring it with me, but if that's what it takes to get it into your hands, and $40 into mine, I can alter my preference. Thanks and 73, Jason W6IEE w6iee.811a at gmail.com From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 18 17:00:11 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:00:11 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901cdf5cf$9eb12fa0$dc138ee0$@YAHOO.COM> > To: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com > Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD Project > > Have you considered doing this as a Kickstart Project? > > I know I'd contribute if I could get a couple units... > Hi I got a couple of ideas/suggestions from a person on CCTALK in response to the S2I project. Given the small amount I would like to raise to buy the 10 prototype PCB boards ($150 max) I don't think it warrants the overhead of a Kickstarter project. This is more of a "pass the hat" among friends/fellow hobbyists sort of deal. I believe community support for S2I is essential. If you support the idea of a free/open source SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board even if this particular board is not for you please consider donating a small amount for the builders to get PCBs to support the project. Another idea is actually just buying one or more of the S2I PCBs. That would be just fine. Each prototype PCB would be $20 each plus shipping (typically $2 in the US and $5 elsewhere). You could support the project and I will send you a PCB. You could even buy two PCBs, one for yourself and another for a builder for build and test phase. Either way helps the S2I project by making the prototype PCB manufacturing economically feasible. Good ideas! Thank you! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, the topic of SCSI to IDE/SD has come up on CCTALK numerous times in the past. I know this will be a more pressing issue as the remaining SASI/SCSI-1 drives slowly fade away. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2009-January/062296.html http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2010-November/080118.html From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 17:01:23 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:01:23 -0800 Subject: Evans & Sutherland PS300 tapes Message-ID: While digging through a box of old VAX CompacTapes I found these two tapes from Evans & Sutherland: MICRO-VAX HOST-TAPE: VAX/VMS Backup File: PSDIST.BCK Rev.: A2.V01 PS300 VAX HOST COMPACTAPE Format: VAX/VMS Backup Format Files: USER.BCK, TOOLS.BCK, DEMOS.BCK Part Number: 904003-040 Rev. Level: Illegible I do not know whether these two tapes still contain what they say they do, but if there's interest I can dig out my external TK50 and make an attempt to read them. The PS300 looks like a pretty interesting system. - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 18 17:14:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:14:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Selling off items to raise money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130118151255.Y26995@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Since I need the money now more than a shattered collection, I will > proceed to sell these pieces. What is your Paypal address? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jan 18 20:51:51 2013 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 02:51:51 +0000 Subject: Wanted - AT&T or Olivetti UNIX PC 3B1 / 7300 PALs, motherboard or system Message-ID: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, A few of you might be aware of my AT&T 3B1 (UNIX PC) emulator project, FreeBee: http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu/ A few of you may recall my... less than flattering comments about the hardware manual. Long story short, the PAL equations in said manual are worthless. Too many logic terms are missing or incorrect. To that end, I'm looking for one of the following: A complete 3B1 system. Hard drive optional, I have a couple of ST506 hard disk drives here which could be pressed into service if need be. This would probably be cost-prohibitive unless the machine were already somewhere in the UK or EU (probably one of the units Olivetti imported, rebadged and sold). A motherboard and keyboard (and ideally the internal cabling). I'm reasonably convinced I could put together a power supply and some form of display, but the keyboard would be a pain to substitute. A set of PALs (labelled with their board position) and gate arrays (or the bodgeboards used in early-rev 3B1s) which I could read out and decode to produce a full set of logic equations. My main target is the Memory Mapper PAL. I'm not afraid of taking a "breaker" unit and fixing it up. Broken is fine, as long as it's something fixable (e.g. it dies during the poweron RAM test without ever displaying the AT&T startup banner). My plan is to dump the PALs and other programmable logic chips, then hook up a logic analyser and document the behaviour of the gate arrays (one of which is completely undocumented). If anyone has any leads on any of the above kit, please either reply here or contact me off list if you prefer. Of course, if you'd like to contribute code to FreeBee, I accept Unified Diff files by email, Dropbox or FTP :) Andrew Warkentin has done a terrific job of making it work >95% - it's just that last 5%. At the moment it boots the Foundation set install media to userspace but fails to mount the hard disc on /mnt, instead spitting out a "no space" error followed by several "no stack space" errors). The prior mkfs/install loader operations work fine... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 22:52:05 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:52:05 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FA2675.5080502@gmail.com> On 1/15/2013 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, that looks like a simple repair. > It is, Again, the articles I sent include a step-by-step strip-down of > the HP9830 tape drive, I thin kthe 9865 one is very similar. BAsically > you have to rmeove the motor assembly (take off the rear bracked and the > motors o nte beam just slide out. Then either fiddle the new rigns in > palce, or remvoe the front panel, the circlip o nthe cassette spindle and > the leaf spidng from the back of the drive wheel, and slide the spindle > out. It takes longer to describe than to do. > > Just to close the loop here (at least on this portion of the repair) the replacement transistor arrived today and after replacing it (and the rubber o-rings) everything appears to be working smoothly, I'm able to save and restore programs to/from cassette tape. Now to find some shorter cassette tapes, these 60-minute jobs I have seem excessive for the task at hand ;). Next up: Repairing the mag strip reader and the printer. - Josh From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 19 02:59:53 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:59:53 +0100 Subject: Wanted - AT&T or Olivetti UNIX PC 3B1 / 7300 PALs, motherboard or system In-Reply-To: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> References: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Philip Pemberton Sent: Sat Jan 19 03:51:51 CET 2013 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Wanted - AT&T or Olivetti UNIX PC 3B1 / 7300 PALs, motherboard or system To that end, I'm looking for one of the following: A complete 3B1 system. Hard drive optional, I have a couple of ST506 hard disk drives here which could be pressed into service if need be. This would probably be cost-prohibitive unless the machine were already somewhere in the UK or EU (probably one of the units Olivetti imported, rebadged and sold). Anybody out here has a clue, how much shipping would be for such a unit from the US to UK? ANd what the cheapiest way would be? Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 19 03:15:29 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 10:15:29 +0100 Subject: Wanted - AT&T or Olivetti UNIX PC 3B1 / 7300 PALs, motherboard or system In-Reply-To: References: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <36cd41af-3640-4b2c-b3af-b0af58b0e17d@email.android.com> "e.stiebler" wrote: > >Anybody out here has a clue, how much shipping would be for such a unit >from the US to UK? >ANd what the cheapiest way would be? sorry for the format, didn't notice the change in the presets on my tablet ... :( From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 03:19:41 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 04:19:41 -0500 Subject: Wanted - AT&T or Olivetti UNIX PC 3B1 / 7300 PALs, motherboard or system In-Reply-To: References: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 3:59 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > From: Philip Pemberton > To that end, I'm looking for one of the following: > > A complete 3B1 system... > > Anybody out here has a clue, how much shipping would be for such a unit from the US to UK? > ANd what the cheapiest way would be? Around $10/lb. International Express Mail. -ethan From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 19 07:11:38 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 08:11:38 -0500 Subject: FW: SCSI to IDE/SD Project References: <00a701cdf5c6$8dfc3be0$a9f4b3a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <00de01cdf646$9da45a70$d8ed0f50$@YAHOO.COM> Hi More questions of a general nature. I am posting to CCTALK in case anyone else has similar questions. Overnight another $20 came in so we are closer! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:10 PM Subject: RE: SCSI to IDE/SD Project Thanks! Yes, the $22 is a prototype PCB-only just like the other builders would receive. The builders assemble their own boards (as would your) using their own components they source separately. The final cost of components ultimately depends on how the builder procures their components. The S2I project is meant for early SASI and/or SCSI-1 computers and equipment. It is not intended to replace SCSI-2 or later drives. SCSI-2 or later drives typically are still commonly available and/or commercial SCSI-2 to IDE solutions already exist. The S2I PCB includes a 50 pin dual row header pads typically associated with SASI and/or SCSI-1 internal drives. It could be adapted to a 25 pin external connector like those used on a Mac. It also has the 2mm spaced dual row header pads used on early Mac Laptop 2.5" SCSI-1 hard drives. Typical early SASI/SCSI-1 systems would be the original Sun-1 system, early Mac Plus, early Amiga, early Atari, etc. Usually these machines originated in the late 1970's to mid-1980's. Anything later than that is probably out of scope for this project and would suffer from its inherent limitations. For the builders next stage of build and test I intend to get 10 prototype PCBs which cost about $200. So far we've received $50 so only need $150 more. The theory you could get as many PCBs as you would like but the practical upper limit is less than 10 PCBs since the builders also need some prototype PCBs for their continued development. There is a lot of information posted on the N8VEM wiki in the SCSI to IDE prototype folder http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI%20to%20IDE %2FSD%20prototypes It is also discussed on the N8VEM mailing list. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem If you are not familiar with the S2I project, I recommend you read the wiki and mailing list to get a feel for the project and what it entails. We are still in development and although the signs are promising we do not have full functionality at the moment. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 6:41 PM > To: Andrew Lynch > Subject: Re: SCSI to IDE/SD Project > > So, $22 per? What's the max I could ask for? > (I'll see about adding +1 as well...for "builder"... ) > > And are these SCSI-1, SCSI-2? (what connector type... I'm looking to > use on Sun 2/120 and Sun 3/110... and perhaps Sun 4/110...and original Macintosh... > ) > > That reasonable? > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 08:38:27 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:38:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wanted - AT&T or Olivetti UNIX PC 3B1 / 7300 PALs, motherboard or system In-Reply-To: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> References: <50FA0A47.7090004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jan 2013, Philip Pemberton wrote: > A complete 3B1 system. Hard drive optional, I have a couple of ST506 > hard disk drives here which could be pressed into service if need be. > This would probably be cost-prohibitive unless the machine were already > somewhere in the UK or EU (probably one of the units Olivetti imported, > rebadged and sold). These things are HEAVY and quite fragile. Even with the original packaging, they tend to break at the pivot point between the monitor and base unit. At the $10/lb. guesstimate I saw in the responses, you'd likely be looking at $4-600 in freight alone, nevermind packing. > A set of PALs (labelled with their board position) and gate arrays (or > the bodgeboards used in early-rev 3B1s) which I could read out and > decode to produce a full set of logic equations. My main target is the > Memory Mapper PAL. Do you have any reason to think that the security links on the PALs were left intact? If so, I might be able to read them out for you. I have a PAL programmer, but precious little time to devote to this type of adventure. Steve -- From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Sat Jan 19 13:52:12 2013 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 13:52:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: server migration Message-ID: <201301191952.r0JJqCuY016475@huey.classiccmp.org> Not sure, but I think I have a few hours squirreled away to try and work on the mailman/email migration. It will likely be a bumpy ride. I'll start looking in to it now. If I can get enough of the mailman system transferred in the time I have, then I'll start looking at the mail transfer if that goes well. I'll keep you all posted. Expect an outage or two. J From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 16:17:41 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:17:41 -0500 Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale Message-ID: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> Clearing out to fund a down payment on a house Heres a listing of what I have A Bell & Howell Apple II, some broken keys, needs chips reseated. But will work with some love. $60 PowerMac 9600/300. The ultimate PowerPC powermac, $75.00 Compaq Portable I, with ASTSixPack ram card and carrying case, $50 dollars Macintosh SE/30 with keyboard and mouse 5MB RAM/80MB HDD $75 Motorola StarMax 3000/180 Macintosh Clone 32MB RAM/1.6GB HDD. Sony PVM-1340 Broadcast Color Monitor, Supports 15khz RGB input via BNC, Nice monitor $50 dollars. Works with pretty much anything, Composite input as well Apple IIGS Monitors $50 each shipped. Apple External SCSI CD-ROM Drives $35 each shipped. 50pin SCSI HDDs ranging from 40mb to 500MB $15 each shipped From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 15:56:26 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 13:56:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: regarding Commodore SX-64 picture tubes and other stuff Message-ID: <1358632586.39326.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have them listen on eBay amongst many other items. The tubes for sure will likely be dumpsterized if they don't sell (and for some reason beyond my comprehension not one has in a couple of years). As for the rest of the stuff - who knows, perhaps the same fate. I'm determined, but not ultimately dead set on emptying out the last of my storage units. I'm keeping my most gorgeous loved items, not getting out of puters altogether. It just seems crazy to hold onto it all forever. I threw out a Rainbow monitor last night even! You were forewarned... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 19 13:58:58 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 19:58:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50FA2675.5080502@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Jan 18, 13 08:52:05 pm Message-ID: > Just to close the loop here (at least on this portion of the repair) the > replacement transistor arrived today and after replacing it (and the > rubber o-rings) everything appears to be working smoothly, I'm able to Excellent. > save and restore programs to/from cassette tape. Now to find some > shorter cassette tapes, these 60-minute jobs I have seem excessive for > the task at hand ;). The cassette needs to have a fairly refelctive plasic chell (white/light coloured) for the EOT sensor t owork correctly. Light passes through the clear tape leader and reflects off the cassette shell. I beleive the correct cassetes have a 'digital' tape which has a different coerciity to normal audiop recordign tape. Practically this doesn't make that much difference. As for the lenght. Assunming your ' 60 minute jobs' are what we used to call C60s and haev 30 minutes of audio recording time on each side [1], the length of the tape is about 280 feet. (30 minutes * 1.875 in/s). I had an idea that the standard digital cassette was, in fact, a 300 foot tape. So they may not be excessive. [1] Of course the 9830 and 9865 record o nthe full width of the tape in on go, you don;t turn the tape over to use the other side. > > Next up: Repairing the mag strip reader and the printer. Good luck :-). With the pritner in particualr there are a lot ofspall parts -- circlips, washers, etc to go walkabout ;-) -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 14:15:27 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 18:15:27 -0200 Subject: server migration References: <201301191952.r0JJqCuY016475@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Good luck! We are after you! :D --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 5:52 PM Subject: server migration > Not sure, but I think I have a few hours squirreled away to try and work > on the mailman/email migration. It will likely be a bumpy ride. > > I'll start looking in to it now. If I can get enough of the mailman system > transferred in the time I have, then I'll start looking at the mail > transfer if that goes well. I'll keep you all posted. Expect an outage or > two. > > J From jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org Sat Jan 19 19:34:11 2013 From: jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 19:34:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: test 1 Message-ID: <201301200134.r0K1YBDO032960@dewey.classiccmp.org> first test to list, using old front-end From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 19:23:00 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:23:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hey Champion, where is ya? You didn't give a price for the Motorola eithuh. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 19 21:25:32 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 21:25:32 -0600 Subject: list status Message-ID: <6D7FCEAE-7F8E-47D5-A5D0-1D32453ED7A5@classiccmp.org> The mailmain service and the inbound/outbound mail seems to be working ok on the new server at the new datacenter. However, it's using the front-end at the old location, and it needs to use the front-end at the new location. I'll start working on that right now... yes... further traffic interruptions. This should be the last major "event". J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 19 22:49:35 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 22:49:35 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: test through new mx host From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Jan 19 23:39:19 2013 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 21:39:19 -0800 Subject: test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: test test through new mx host working a-ok From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Jan 20 04:37:48 2013 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:37:48 -0800 Subject: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a number nine VGA card vintage 1987, TMS 34010 processor, It looks like a pepper ISA card? The bits have failed in the ODD side of the eprom set. Does anyone have a set of firmware? It appears I have half of the set intact (even rom), NNIOS "3.10" hand penciled into the labels. Thanks, This is the card: http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148222&img=video-1.jpg JimD. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jim davis Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 9:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: test -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: test test through new mx host working a-ok From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 20 06:59:54 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 06:59:54 -0600 Subject: migration pretty much complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's just freaking awesome :) The archives appear to be up as well. There seems to be an older period of time that is missing from the re-generated archives (1997 and thereabouts). They are there 'behind the scenes' but just not displaying in the web interface. Other years appear fine. I've yet to test the search function that AEK mentioned. Due to time-constraints I need to put those on the back burner for a bit and move on to migrating other client machines. Once that's done I'd appreciate a nudge to remind me to get back to that. If anyone notices any major issues, please let me know asap. And now... back to out regularly scheduled programming :) J On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:39 PM, jim davis wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: test > > > test through new mx host > working a-ok From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 08:55:39 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 12:55:39 -0200 Subject: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card References: Message-ID: <419BEBEAB6954A4B92884ADDF4CCEBC5@tababook> >I have a number nine VGA card vintage 1987, TMS 34010 processor, It looks > like a pepper ISA card? Man, it was EXPENSIVE! :oO From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 08:56:21 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 12:56:21 -0200 Subject: migration pretty much complete References: Message-ID: <572A20B807CD4C8082D8F6D8C73F2A2D@tababook> Well done, man! Thank a lot :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:59 AM Subject: migration pretty much complete > That's just freaking awesome :) > > The archives appear to be up as well. There seems to be an older period of > time that is missing from the re-generated archives (1997 and > thereabouts). They are there 'behind the scenes' but just not displaying > in the web interface. Other years appear fine. I've yet to test the search > function that AEK mentioned. Due to time-constraints I need to put those > on the back burner for a bit and move on to migrating other client > machines. Once that's done I'd appreciate a nudge to remind me to get back > to that. If anyone notices any major issues, please let me know asap. > > And now... back to out regularly scheduled programming :) > > J > > On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:39 PM, jim davis wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West >> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:50 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: test >> >> >> test through new mx host >> working a-ok > > > From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 20 12:26:29 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 13:26:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 02:37:48AM -0800, jim davis wrote: >It appears I have half of the set intact (even rom), NNIOS "3.10" hand >penciled into the labels. Oh man, THAT brings back mixed memories! My company had a #9 Revolution 2048x4 ISA board that we used for internal demos. The version of NNIOS for that board (which was a TSR -- I don't think there it had any ROM?) was too slow so I wrote a driver from scratch. That model had a Hitachi HD63484 processor, which was decent, and the 1280x960 display sure was purdy (way better than an EA). Can't help with ROM images though. Good luck! John Wilson D Bit From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 20 13:50:12 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 13:50:12 -0600 Subject: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> I actually used to have one of those cards.... but it went to the bin eons ago.... J On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:26 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 02:37:48AM -0800, jim davis wrote: >> It appears I have half of the set intact (even rom), NNIOS "3.10" hand >> penciled into the labels. > > Oh man, THAT brings back mixed memories! My company had a #9 Revolution 2048x4 > ISA board that we used for internal demos. The version of NNIOS for that board > (which was a TSR -- I don't think there it had any ROM?) was too slow so I > wrote a driver from scratch. That model had a Hitachi HD63484 processor, which > was decent, and the 1280x960 display sure was purdy (way better than an EA). > > Can't help with ROM images though. Good luck! > > John Wilson > D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 20 14:00:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: migration pretty much complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FC4CCD.9040806@neurotica.com> On 01/20/2013 07:59 AM, Jay West wrote: > That's just freaking awesome :) Yes. :-) > The archives appear to be up as well. There seems to be an older > period of time that is missing from the re-generated archives (1997 > and thereabouts). They are there 'behind the scenes' but just not > displaying in the web interface. Other years appear fine. I've yet to > test the search function that AEK mentioned. Due to time-constraints > I need to put those on the back burner for a bit and move on to > migrating other client machines. Once that's done I'd appreciate a > nudge to remind me to get back to that. If anyone notices any major > issues, please let me know asap. Much awesomeness. > And now... back to out regularly scheduled programming :) Thank you for your efforts! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 20 14:34:40 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:34:40 +0100 Subject: migration pretty much complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005b01cdf74d$9609a790$c21cf6b0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Jay West > Verzonden: zondag 20 januari 2013 14:00 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: migration pretty much complete > > That's just freaking awesome :) > > The archives appear to be up as well. There seems to be an older period of time > that is missing from the re-generated archives (1997 and thereabouts). They are > there 'behind the scenes' but just not displaying in the web interface. Other years > appear fine. I've yet to test the search function that AEK mentioned. Due to > time-constraints I need to put those on the back burner for a bit and move on to > migrating other client machines. Once that's done I'd appreciate a nudge to > remind me to get back to that. If anyone notices any major issues, please let me > know asap. > > And now... back to out regularly scheduled programming :) > > J > > On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:39 PM, jim davis wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:50 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: test > > > > > > test through new mx host > > working a-ok > Great work.. Thanks, -Rik From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 14:56:06 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 07:56:06 +1100 Subject: migration pretty much complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thank you for your efforts Jay, I appreciate moving stuff around is time-consuming and arduous activity. We noticed a small difference if you or someone could checkout please: This link: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2009-January/062342.html points to a different post than the google-cache: cache:http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2009-January/062342.html I would have hoped(expected) the MSG identifiers (062342) would not move around, since there will be inbound links from various places. I am searching for IBM Displaywriter material (I hope to find one soon), and was a little surprised the historical message IDs seemed to have changed? From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 20 18:57:32 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 01:57:32 +0100 Subject: Sun Solaris 2.5 x86 boxed Message-ID: <50FC927C.30509@xs4all.nl> Not mine, but just in case anyone may be interested, I saw this boxed Sun Solaris 2.5 box set today on a local (Dutch) auction site: (For those from abroad: It's probably best to e-mail the seller.) - MG From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 23:02:11 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:02:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I haven't even seen many for sale. I saw an "Artist" board on one of the other auctions places, and something moderately interesting at a Trenton show. Stuff like that is sure tough to find. ?I think the TMS34010 or whatever was used in the DEC 486 pizza box I had years ago. That unit hooked right up to a fixed frequency monitor. I think it's the only computer/card besides a Mac that I ever was able to use w/the million I used to have (natively that is). From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 20 23:11:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:11:08 -0500 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> On 01/21/2013 12:02 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I haven't even seen many for sale. I saw an "Artist" board on one of > the other auctions places, and something moderately interesting at a > Trenton show. Stuff like that is sure tough to find. I think the > TMS34010 or whatever was used in the DEC 486 pizza box I had years > ago. That unit hooked right up to a fixed frequency monitor. I think > it's the only computer/card besides a Mac that I ever was able to use > w/the million I used to have (natively that is). Related, but not exactly CAD/CAM, I have an ISA AT&T Targa board. If anyone is hot to have this, drop me an email and make me a nice swap offer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 23:27:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:27:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire ? Related, but not exactly CAD/CAM, I have an ISA AT&T Targa board.? If anyone is hot to have this, drop me an email and make me a nice swap offer. C: Any drivers or whatever with it? What are you looking for in trade? What about gringo dollars? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 20 23:29:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:29:07 -0800 Subject: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50FCD223.8020309@sydex.com> On 01/20/2013 09:02 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I haven't even seen many for sale. I saw an "Artist" board on one of > the other auctions places, and something moderately interesting at a > Trenton show. Stuff like that is sure tough to find. I think the > TMS34010 or whatever was used in the DEC 486 pizza box I had years > ago. That unit hooked right up to a fixed frequency monitor. I think > it's the only computer/card besides a Mac that I ever was able to use > w/the million I used to have (natively that is). Every once in awhile a TIGA card shows up on Erik Klein's VC forum. Superlative for CAD use. Many will do basic VGA modes, but it seems to take some careful convincing of the proud new owner that the TIGA chips require separate drivers to be useful. And that can be hard to find. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 23:43:38 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:43:38 -0500 Subject: migration pretty much complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > thank you for your efforts Jay, I appreciate moving stuff around is > time-consuming and arduous activity. As do I. Thank you for making everything possible. -- Will From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 23:46:01 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:46:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <50FCD223.8020309@sydex.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCD223.8020309@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1358747161.60291.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis Every once in awhile a TIGA card shows up on Erik Klein's VC forum. Superlative for CAD use.? Many will do basic VGA modes, but it seems to take some careful convincing of the proud new owner that the TIGA chips require separate drivers to be useful. And that can be hard to find. C: Drivers for what? Autocad? I think that's what my DEC pizza box had by the way. Yes it emulated basic VGA. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 21 04:22:25 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 11:22:25 +0100 Subject: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <1358747161.60291.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCD223.8020309@sydex.com> <1358747161.60291.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001cdf7c1$38c6e4c0$aa54ae40$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Chris Tofu > Verzonden: maandag 21 januari 2013 6:46 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for > bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > Every once in awhile a TIGA card shows up on Erik Klein's VC forum. Superlative > for CAD use.? Many will do basic VGA modes, but it seems to take some careful > convincing of the proud new owner that the TIGA chips require separate drivers > to be useful. > > And that can be hard to find. > > C: Drivers for what? Autocad? I think that's what my DEC pizza box had by the > way. Yes it emulated basic VGA. I have two and I'm open for offers. Both Datapath one Harlequin DGC25D and the other one is a Merlin DGC08D with Intel i860 coprocessor and manual. For both the original cab le sets are included no drivers. Items are located in the Netherlands. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 21 04:42:00 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 11:42:00 +0100 Subject: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <002001cdf7c1$38c6e4c0$aa54ae40$@xs4all.nl> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCD223.8020309@sydex.com> <1358747161.60291.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <002001cdf7c1$38c6e4c0$aa54ae40$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002c01cdf7c3$f5500d40$dff027c0$@xs4all.nl> > > I have two and I'm open for offers. > Both Datapath one Harlequin DGC25D and the other one is a Merlin DGC08D > with Intel i860 coprocessor and manual. > For both the original cab le sets are included no drivers. > Items are located in the Netherlands. > > -Rik And I found some drivers at the site of Datapath http://www.datapath.co.uk/support/driver-downloads/past-products-downloads/i tem/157-TIGA-based-graphics-card-drivers -Rik From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 21 08:11:46 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:11:46 -0500 Subject: Truevision - Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50FD4CA2.6020408@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/01/13 12:02 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I haven't even seen many for sale. I saw an "Artist" board on one of the other auctions places, and something moderately interesting at a Trenton show. Stuff like that is sure tough to find. > I think the TMS34010 or whatever was used in the DEC 486 pizza box I had years ago. That unit hooked right up to a fixed frequency monitor. I think it's the only computer/card besides a Mac that I ever was able to use w/the million I used to have (natively that is). > > I still own the Targa's big brother - the Truevision NuVista+ board - one of the first to support Colour QuickDraw in all bitdepths up to 24/32; did video overlaying with 1 bit alpha, and video capture. NuBus for Mac II series. Had a TI DSP on it but I was never able to find the developer tools for that. --Toby From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 21 08:11:30 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 08:11:30 -0600 Subject: drivers and software Message-ID: <001301cdf7e1$35b885c0$a1299140$@com> I have about 50 pounds of old software, driver disks, motherboard disks, etc. Is there some site to upload these to, that is not full of junky ads, trying to get you to buy misc crap? I would love to share them with the community, but I don't know where to upload them? Drivers range from old video and sound cards, almost every HP deskjet there ever was, to current motherboards, etc. Software ranges from Windows 1.0, AutoCad 13, and lots of other misc stuff. Large selection of shareware/freeware for 8088 on up. Sorry, there is nothing that is not PC or Mac related, that I know of. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6046 - Release Date: 01/20/13 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 21 08:50:33 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:50:33 +0100 Subject: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <002c01cdf7c3$f5500d40$dff027c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCD223.8020309@sydex.com> <1358747161.60291.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <002001cdf7c1$38c6e4c0$aa54ae40$@xs4all.nl> <002c01cdf7c3$f5500d40$dff027c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004d01cdf7e6$ae01e170$0a05a450$@xs4all.nl> > > I have two and I'm open for offers. > > Both Datapath one Harlequin DGC25D and the other one is a Merlin > > DGC08D with Intel i860 coprocessor and manual. > > For both the original cab le sets are included no drivers. > > Items are located in the Netherlands. > > Placed some pics of the boards on www.flickr.com/hp-fix -Rik From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Jan 19 17:36:42 2013 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:36:42 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa In-Reply-To: <50FB20D0.8040401@comcast.net> References: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> <50FB20D0.8040401@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50FB2E0A.2080505@comcast.net> Think I have that reversed =) Lisa 1: Dual Floppies, Lisa 2: Single Floppy On 1/19/2013 4:40 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Is it a Lisa 1 (1 floppy drive) or Lisa 2 (2 floppy drives)? Any > photos? Thnx! From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Jan 19 16:40:16 2013 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:40:16 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa In-Reply-To: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> References: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> Message-ID: <50FB20D0.8040401@comcast.net> Is it a Lisa 1 (1 floppy drive) or Lisa 2 (2 floppy drives)? Any photos? Thnx! From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 21 09:54:11 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:54:11 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa In-Reply-To: <50FB20D0.8040401@comcast.net> References: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> <50FB20D0.8040401@comcast.net> Message-ID: <002d01cdf7ef$8e2b01c0$aa810540$@com> Pica are here: https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/AppleLisa but the computer has been sold Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 4:40 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple Lisa Is it a Lisa 1 (1 floppy drive) or Lisa 2 (2 floppy drives)? Any photos? Thnx! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6046 - Release Date: 01/20/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6046 - Release Date: 01/20/13 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 10:18:26 2013 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:18:26 -0600 Subject: drivers and software In-Reply-To: <001301cdf7e1$35b885c0$a1299140$@com> References: <001301cdf7e1$35b885c0$a1299140$@com> Message-ID: Hi Cindy, I would be interested in the Auto cad if it has the document set (box and manuals) What are you asking for this? Thanks, Randy Dawson > From: sales at elecplus.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: drivers and software > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 08:11:30 -0600 > > I have about 50 pounds of old software, driver disks, motherboard disks, > etc. > > Is there some site to upload these to, that is not full of junky ads, trying > to get you to buy misc crap? > > I would love to share them with the community, but I don't know where to > upload them? > > > > Drivers range from old video and sound cards, almost every HP deskjet there > ever was, to current motherboards, etc. > > Software ranges from Windows 1.0, AutoCad 13, and lots of other misc stuff. > Large selection of shareware/freeware for 8088 on up. > > > > Sorry, there is nothing that is not PC or Mac related, that I know of. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6046 - Release Date: 01/20/13 > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 10:36:00 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 11:36:00 -0500 Subject: Black screen on C64; continuous IRQ from VIC? Message-ID: <9F8FF020-099E-4EB7-B4AC-991C113C1979@gmail.com> Hi all, I bought a C64 marked "non-working" at last year's VCF East as a project machine. Alas, I wasn't able to make it to Bil Herd and Rob Clarke's session on Commodore maintenance at the same show, so perhaps I missed this part. :-) Anyway, the screen is totally black, but it is syncing. I've verified on my scope that the VIC is generating the proper NTSC vertical and horizontal syncs, as well as the color burst, but there's no content. On further inspection, I've found that the IRQ line is pulled low as soon as the reset line is released, and it does not release. If I pull the VIC chip, the IRQ does not do the same thing. I know better than to assume correlation is the same as causation; it's entirely possible that by pulling the VIC, I've caused some crash in the initialization sequence that would cause one of the CIAs to pull the IRQ line constantly or something of the sort. I'm a Commodore newbie, so I don't know how the thing is *supposed* to behave, but I do know that a constant low on the IRQ line is going to keep the CPU from doing anything terribly useful unless it's masked. Anyone have advice? Is my VIC blown? I sure hope not, because those things are not easy to find outside of finding a scrapped C64. - Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 11:00:21 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 17:00:21 +0000 Subject: Apple Lisa In-Reply-To: <002d01cdf7ef$8e2b01c0$aa810540$@com> References: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> <50FB20D0.8040401@comcast.net> <002d01cdf7ef$8e2b01c0$aa810540$@com> Message-ID: <320046776-1358787621-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-192902926-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Lisa 1 had 5.25" floppy ("twiggy") drives while the more common lisa 2 has a 3.5" drive. -----Original Message----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:54:11 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Apple Lisa Pica are here: https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/AppleLisa but the computer has been sold Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 4:40 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple Lisa Is it a Lisa 1 (1 floppy drive) or Lisa 2 (2 floppy drives)? Any photos? Thnx! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6046 - Release Date: 01/20/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6046 - Release Date: 01/20/13 From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 21 12:34:44 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." (one more try) Message-ID: <201301211834.r0LIYi1M28049626@floodgap.com> Reposting, since I got a 7.2 CD and other than a different version string, the same thing happens. What am I doing wrong? -- original message -- Okay, VAX heads. I got an external SCSI cable for my VAXstation 3100 M76 and connected it to my old Apple SCSI CD-ROM that boots pretty much anything in my collection (Apple, SGI, you name it). At the chevron prompt, >>> b/r5:10000000 dkb500: -DKB500 [...] OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 [...] PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:14 [...] %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. It just sits there. So I tried it without the /r5 bit: >>> b dkb500: -DKB500 [...] OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 [...] PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:20 Configuring devices . . . Available device: DKB500: device type SONY CD-ROM CDU-8 Available device: DKA0: device type RZ26 %BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V7.2; the date is 13-JAN-2013 16:21:06.64 $ So far so good. $ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DKB500:VMS073.B/SAVE_SET DKA0: %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, SABKUP$DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. And sits there again. What am I doing wrong? (Don't say use another CD-ROM drive; this one works perfectly with every other computer I've used it with. And if it *is* the drive, why would it boot from it but not install from it?) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Helmet: But when will Now be Then?!?! Sandurz: Soon. -- "Spaceballs" ------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 12:56:06 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 13:56:06 -0500 Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." (one more try) In-Reply-To: <201301211834.r0LIYi1M28049626@floodgap.com> References: <201301211834.r0LIYi1M28049626@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And sits there again. What am I doing wrong? (Don't say use another CD-ROM > drive; this one works perfectly with every other computer I've used it with. > And if it *is* the drive, why would it boot from it but not install from it?) To boot on your VAX (and old Suns and old Macs...) it has to return the info from the disc in 512-byte blocks. To treat like an ISO-9660 read-only storage device, it has to return the info from the disc in 2048-byte blocks. Some CD-ROM drives power up in 512-byte mode so you can boot from them. Others need a mode switch command packet - those work with newer Suns because past a certain point, the OpenBoot firmware knows to send that. If your drive is one that has to be jumpered to 512-byte-per-block mode, perhaps it's not able or doesn't know it should switch to 2048-byte-per-block mode to be used as a "standard" CD-ROM drive. I would look at what model of drive you have and compare its features to whatever model was shipped with DEC gear and see how they differ. -ethan From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 21 13:04:13 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:04:13 -0500 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project In-Reply-To: References: <003201cdee0f$e995c840$bcc158c0$@YAHOO.COM> <00a501cdeec6$6fef6e30$4fce4a90$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <00d701cdf80a$1a9c6170$4fd52450$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Below is an edited for privacy update on the S2I project. There is no over-stating the importance of today's developments. This is huge! I am sending this to you for a couple of reasons. First, we are getting close to needing some additional builders to build and test S2I on some other platforms for compatibility testing. In particular, I would like early Mac and early Amiga fans since I think both of those are rich areas for SCSI quirkiness. Also the early DEC might be good too but I don't know enough about them one way or the other. Second, we are reaching the end of the first batch of S2I prototype boards and will soon need the second prototype board. So far we've raised $130 of the $200 we'll need for the new PCBs. If you would please consider helping out with the second batch of boards I would appreciate it and it will benefit many in the vintage/classic/hobbyist/home brew community. More news as it becomes available. Please ask questions or contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:47 AM To: Andrew Lynch Subject: Re: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project Hi Folks, Just another quick progress report. I managed to get a few hours of uninterrupted time yesterday and continued to have more success. Although the code is a complete disaster, I now have full read/write functionality. I am running the SCSI2IDE from my Xi 8088 with a Future Domain adapter that has a boot ROM. I am able to run DOS from the SDSI2IDE with no problems. Reading and writing data between the host and my CF card seems to be rock solid. I even ran an Adaptec utility that does a read/write test and it worked fine. At present, I am dumping a lot of diagnostics with every command including portions of data, so it is very slow. Additionally, I have not implemented the pseudo-dma mode. I am nowhere near working on performance -- that comes last. The only anomaly I have observed is that DOS 6.22 FDISK reports "No space for DOS partition on drive" when I try to use it to create a primary partition. However, I am completely successful if I use DOS 3.3 FDISK to create the partition, then use DOS 6.22 to format the partition and make it bootable. I see odd command requests from the host when trying to use DOS 6.22 FDISK to create the partition and suspect there is something about the ROM in my adapter that is problematic for newer versions of DOS. To be clear, the command requests are valid SCSI commands, it is just that they don't make sense given what FDISK is supposed to be doing. I will try to get the code straightened out enough to post an update on the Wiki in the next few days. We are very close to the point where it will be helpful to get others running this "alpha" code on a variety of different systems for compatibility testing. I'm hoping some of you folks can help with that. Thanks, From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jan 21 14:33:14 2013 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:33:14 -0800 Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50FDA60A.2030505@socal.rr.com> On 1/19/2013 2:17 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > > Clearing out to fund a down payment on a house Good to make some mention of location, none of that stuff will be fun to ship. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 15:01:21 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:01:21 -0500 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project In-Reply-To: <00d701cdf80a$1a9c6170$4fd52450$@YAHOO.COM> References: <003201cdee0f$e995c840$bcc158c0$@YAHOO.COM> <00a501cdeec6$6fef6e30$4fce4a90$@YAHOO.COM> <00d701cdf80a$1a9c6170$4fd52450$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> The only anomaly I have observed is that DOS 6.22 FDISK reports "No space >> for DOS partition on drive" when I try to use it to create a primary >> partition. Is he rebooting after changing the partition table under DOS 6.22? It's a known thing. You can't create the partition and use it right away. DOS did change, so it's not surprising it "works the way you expect" under DOS 3.3. DOS was full of "well _this_ sucks! Why did they do that?" moments back in the day. You might be experiencing one now. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 21 15:43:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:43:07 -0500 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> On 01/21/2013 12:27 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Related, but not exactly CAD/CAM, I have an ISA AT&T Targa board. If > anyone is hot to have this, drop me an email and make me a nice swap offer. > > C: Any drivers or whatever with it? What are you looking for in trade? What about gringo dollars? I have no accessories or software, just the two-board sandwich. Gringo dollars works for me, make me any ol' offer. One thing I know I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an Amiga 1000 talk to a composite monitor like a Commodore 1701. Gots? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 21 15:17:11 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:17:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 21, 13 00:11:08 am Message-ID: > > On 01/21/2013 12:02 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I haven't even seen many for sale. I saw an "Artist" board on one of > > the other auctions places, and something moderately interesting at a > > Trenton show. Stuff like that is sure tough to find. I think the > > TMS34010 or whatever was used in the DEC 486 pizza box I had years > > ago. That unit hooked right up to a fixed frequency monitor. I think > > it's the only computer/card besides a Mac that I ever was able to use > > w/the million I used to have (natively that is). > > Related, but not exactly CAD/CAM, I have an ISA AT&T Targa board. If > anyone is hot to have this, drop me an email and make me a nice swap offer. Also somewhat related, but neither CAD/CAM or an ISA card : I have a X terminal called a 'Princeton UltraX'. It has an 80188 for I/O (serial port, ethernet, keyboard, mouse) and runs the X server on a TMS34010. >From what I rmember there';s a daughterboard in it stuffed with EPROMs containing the X server and fonts -tony From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 15:52:38 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:52:38 +0000 Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <263116068-1358805158-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-863396844-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> He's the dude in flushing michigan. I've never had a transaction with him but he's been discussed a bit elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tofu Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:23:00 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Wintertime Cleanout sale Hey Champion, where is ya? You didn't give a price for the Motorola eithuh. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 16:00:54 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:00:54 -0600 Subject: UFS filesystems Message-ID: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> Does anyone know of a good [available online] UFS filesystem technical reference (which also covers cylinder grouping, i.e. not the original 'fs')? Google's not turning up much other than a couple of overviews that are really too high-level. cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 21 18:05:03 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:05:03 -0500 Subject: FFS - Re: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50FDD7AF.6030409@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/01/13 5:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone know of a good [available online] UFS filesystem technical > reference (which also covers cylinder grouping, i.e. not the original > 'fs')? Google's not turning up much other than a couple of overviews > that are really too high-level. McKusick's paper on FFS: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~brewer/cs262/FFS.pdf --Toby > > cheers > > Jules > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 21 18:06:06 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:06:06 -0500 Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: <263116068-1358805158-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-863396844-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <263116068-1358805158-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-863396844-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <50FDD7EE.9040006@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/01/13 4:52 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > He's the dude in flushing michigan. I've never had a transaction with him but he's been discussed a bit elsewhere. I've bought stuff from Steve, no problems, and will probably buy some more SCSI items from him soon. --Toby From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 19:36:15 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:36:15 -0600 Subject: FFS - Re: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FDD7AF.6030409@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <50FDD7AF.6030409@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50FDED0F.20600@gmail.com> On 01/21/2013 06:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 21/01/13 5:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Does anyone know of a good [available online] UFS filesystem technical >> reference (which also covers cylinder grouping, i.e. not the original >> 'fs')? Google's not turning up much other than a couple of overviews >> that are really too high-level. > > McKusick's paper on FFS: > > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~brewer/cs262/FFS.pdf Thanks - that did let me infer the directory data block format which I'd not seen described anywhere else. The three big unknowns I have at the moment are: 1) how to calculate the offset within the dump to each cylinder group header. I can find them by searching for the CG magic number (which is at offset 0x4 within each) but I don't know how their offsets are calculated, or stored in the superblock, or stored elsewhere (at least one text that I read implied that they were stored in a lookup table completely separate to the superblock) 2) how to calculate the offset from each CG header to the start of that CG's inode table. It seems to be 8192 bytes in all the UTek dumps that I have, but I don't know if it's always 8192 bytes for any UFS implementation, or even that I can assume it's always 8192 for UTek. 3) how inode data block pointers work. e.g. how the address stored in each block pointer is translated to a physical offset from the start of the partition dump. In one example that I have here, I've managed to find the data block containing the root directory, but the address which it's at seems to have no simple correlation that I can see to the data block pointer in the corresponding inode. cheers Jules From JHMcCarthy at aol.com Mon Jan 21 11:07:29 2013 From: JHMcCarthy at aol.com (JHMcCarthy at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:07:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: migration pretty much complete Message-ID: Jay: I think you have copied me in error. ----- Justin (Jud) McCarthy 251 SW 9th Ave Boca Raton, FL 33486 Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 In a message dated 1/21/2013 10:30:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: That's just freaking awesome :) The archives appear to be up as well. There seems to be an older period of time that is missing from the re-generated archives (1997 and thereabouts). They are there 'behind the scenes' but just not displaying in the web interface. Other years appear fine. I've yet to test the search function that AEK mentioned. Due to time-constraints I need to put those on the back burner for a bit and move on to migrating other client machines. Once that's done I'd appreciate a nudge to remind me to get back to that. If anyone notices any major issues, please let me know asap. And now... back to out regularly scheduled programming :) J On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:39 PM, jim davis wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: test > > > test through new mx host > working a-ok From amh at POBOX.COM Mon Jan 21 17:05:36 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 18:05:36 -0500 Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know of a good [available online] UFS filesystem technical > reference (which also covers cylinder grouping, i.e. not the original 'fs')? > Google's not turning up much other than a couple of overviews that are > really too high-level. Perhaps you've already seen it, but the original McKusick FFS paper might be of interest: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~brewer/cs262/FFS.pdf -Andy From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 03:12:28 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:12:28 +1100 Subject: FFS - Re: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FDED0F.20600@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <50FDD7AF.6030409@telegraphics.com.au> <50FDED0F.20600@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Thanks - that did let me infer the directory data block format which I'd not > seen described anywhere else. Maybe this is obvious, but have you trawled the comp.unix.internals newsgroup, I had a quick look and there appears to be plenty of hits for UFS: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.unix.internals/browse_thread/thread/1aa7145f01a13ad9/493bef34418808c4 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.unix.internals/browse_thread/thread/15fbbeecc95d5ca/13f1c41a5ee8e943 That first one is a course that specifically mentions Cylinder Groups, so if you can find the presenter (via LinkedIn or Usenet) you might be able to get the original course notes, or just ask in that newsgroup. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 22 03:46:52 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:46:52 +1300 Subject: My HX-20 on YouTube Message-ID: As 1981 rolled around to 1982, how could you not get excited by the Epson HX-20?! http://youtu.be/q-Esopw_KK8 Terry (Tez) From ats at offog.org Tue Jan 22 03:56:16 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:56:16 +0000 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> (Dave McGuire's message of "Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:43:07 -0500") References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire writes: > One thing I know I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an > Amiga 1000 talk to a composite monitor like a Commodore 1701. Isn't that just a plain phono-to-phono cable? This FAQ suggests that the A1000 has a colour composite output already: http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/a1000faq.html (Failing that, it also says the extremely common A520 modulator -- which also provides a colour composite output -- will work with an A1000.) Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 05:12:08 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:12:08 +1100 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive Message-ID: A good friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive, originally connected to an IMPI AS/400, and we are now hopeful that it could be reconnected to a slightly more modern AS/400, still IMPI and still SPD. This would give us a local 9-track tape capability: here are some pictures: https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM3430TapeDrive#5606377893749621362 What we are particularly interested to learn is whether we have the "master" tape drive, known as a A01 unit (that includes the controller electronics) or the tape-drive-only unit known as the B01 variant. We added a picture today (see very last picture) of the main controller electronics cage that shows several plug-in cards, is anyone familiar with these and can identify the variant by sight? we searched the entire machine looking for some designation that showed the model variant without success. So we assume it comes down to the controller cage, and we see empty slots so we wonder if it is the B01 variant. From trasz at FreeBSD.org Tue Jan 22 04:02:52 2013 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=B3a?=) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:02:52 +0100 Subject: FFS - Re: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FDED0F.20600@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <50FDD7AF.6030409@telegraphics.com.au> <50FDED0F.20600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <739FE0E7-8E0D-478A-A655-9DD3A1821539@FreeBSD.org> Wiadomo?? napisana przez Jules Richardson w dniu 22 sty 2013, o godz. 02:36: > On 01/21/2013 06:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 21/01/13 5:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone know of a good [available online] UFS filesystem technical >>> reference (which also covers cylinder grouping, i.e. not the original >>> 'fs')? Google's not turning up much other than a couple of overviews >>> that are really too high-level. >> >> McKusick's paper on FFS: >> >> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~brewer/cs262/FFS.pdf > > Thanks - that did let me infer the directory data block format which I'd not seen described anywhere else. The three big unknowns I have at the moment are: > > 1) how to calculate the offset within the dump to each cylinder group header. I can find them by searching for the CG magic number (which is at offset 0x4 within each) but I don't know how their offsets are calculated, or stored in the superblock, or stored elsewhere (at least one text that I read implied that they were stored in a lookup table completely separate to the superblock) Using http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/sys/ufs/ffs/fs.h?revision=243250&view=markup as a reference, you should be able to calculate this using cgbase(). > 2) how to calculate the offset from each CG header to the start of that CG's inode table. It seems to be 8192 bytes in all the UTek dumps that I have, but I don't know if it's always 8192 bytes for any UFS implementation, or even that I can assume it's always 8192 for UTek. cgimin() > 3) how inode data block pointers work. e.g. how the address stored in each block pointer is translated to a physical offset from the start of the partition dump. In one example that I have here, I've managed to find the data block containing the root directory, but the address which it's at seems to have no simple correlation that I can see to the data block pointer in the corresponding inode. lblkno(), IIRC. -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 05:27:13 2013 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fw: [N8VEM: 15431] Re: SCSI2IDE Progress Message-ID: <1358854033.7628.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi ? Another quick update on S2I project editted for privacy and brevity.? More progress yesterday and really great news.? Still developmental obviously but am actively looking for additional test cases to shake out the firmware.? Old PC/XTs with?SCSI controllers and the early Macs seem like the logical starting point but there could be others.? Unexpected bonus is some interaction with SCSI-2 but that's out of scope for the project.? If someone gets it working then that's great but not the primary objective. ? If you want to help with compatibility testing you'll need a serial terminal or PC running along side to capture the diagnostic message stream.? That maybe a useful feature in its own right being able to peer into previously hidden SCSI command interaction stream. ? Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if you have more questions or want more information.? Better yet S2I is a discussion topic at N8VEM mailing list. ? Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch Subject: [N8VEM: 15431] Re: SCSI2IDE Progress To: n8vem at googlegroups.com Date: Monday, January 21, 2013, 11:42 PM Hi Folks, Another quick progress report on SCSI2IDE. ?I got a decent amount of time to work on it this weekend and now have all basic functionality working. ?The firmware now reasonably emulates a SCSI 20MB hard disk. ?On both of my test environments, I am able to partition, format, read/write, and boot DOS 3.3. I am now at a point where I would like to solicit help with compatibility testing. ?I'm sure it will be a bit rough at first, but I need feedback on other platforms. ?Please refer to the Wiki folder:?http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI%20to%20IDE%2FSD%20prototypes. ?You can download the firmware in the file S2I Firmware.zip. ?There is a page with more detailed information called S2I Status. ?It is easy to build the firmware and there is a pre-built ROM in there if you don't want to do a build. The one warning is that it is currently very slow. ?I have gobs of diagnostics being spit out to the serial port (necessary evil while we work through compatibility) and there are many code optimizations I have not yet bothered with. There is still a long way to go, but it is awesome to finally see this board doing what it was intended to. ?:-) Thanks, From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jan 22 06:10:07 2013 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:10:07 +0100 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive References: Message-ID: I dont know whether it will help (I'm an old IBM DOS operator) but in the old days the "master" tape drive would have a physical address like '180' or '280', the 1 or 2 designating the channel number, the 8 meaning "tape drive" and '0' master. Other tape drives would be called 181, 182, etc. With luck, you will find a sticker on the tape drive saying 180 or 181 /NIco ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive >A good friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive, originally > connected to an IMPI AS/400, and we are now hopeful that it could be > reconnected to a slightly more modern AS/400, still IMPI and still > SPD. This would give us a local 9-track tape capability: > > here are some pictures: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM3430TapeDrive#5606377893749621362 > > What we are particularly interested to learn is whether we have the > "master" tape drive, known as a A01 unit (that includes the controller > electronics) or the tape-drive-only unit known as the B01 variant. > > We added a picture today (see very last picture) of the main > controller electronics cage that shows several plug-in cards, is > anyone familiar with these and can identify the variant by sight? we > searched the entire machine looking for some designation that showed > the model variant without success. So we assume it comes down to the > controller cage, and we see empty slots so we wonder if it is the B01 > variant. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 795 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 06:45:43 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:45:43 +0000 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suspect it is an "A" drive as it has a pair of BUS and TAG sockets and normally on Mainframe channels only the "A" type devices have these, and then the "B" drives use some other kind of cable to tie into the head of string but this may not be true for 3430 drives. However there should also be some jumpers to set the channel address and I can't see those any where, so perhaps 3430 are daisy changed alog the channel... On 22 January 2013 11:12, Nigel Williams wrote: > A good friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive, originally > connected to an IMPI AS/400, and we are now hopeful that it could be > reconnected to a slightly more modern AS/400, still IMPI and still > SPD. This would give us a local 9-track tape capability: > > here are some pictures: > > > https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM3430TapeDrive#5606377893749621362 > > What we are particularly interested to learn is whether we have the > "master" tape drive, known as a A01 unit (that includes the controller > electronics) or the tape-drive-only unit known as the B01 variant. > > We added a picture today (see very last picture) of the main > controller electronics cage that shows several plug-in cards, is > anyone familiar with these and can identify the variant by sight? we > searched the entire machine looking for some designation that showed > the model variant without success. So we assume it comes down to the > controller cage, and we see empty slots so we wonder if it is the B01 > variant. > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 06:53:18 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:53:18 +0000 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to:- http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-ProdAnn/3430.pdf only the "A" drive has power, the "B" is powered from the "A" so it looks very likely that you have an "A" unit. On 22 January 2013 12:45, Dave Wade wrote: > I suspect it is an "A" drive as it has a pair of BUS and TAG sockets and > normally on Mainframe channels only the "A" type devices have these, and > then the "B" drives use some other kind of cable to tie into the head of > string but this may not be true for 3430 drives. > > However there should also be some jumpers to set the channel address and I > can't see those any where, so perhaps 3430 are daisy changed alog the > channel... > > > On 22 January 2013 11:12, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> A good friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive, originally >> connected to an IMPI AS/400, and we are now hopeful that it could be >> reconnected to a slightly more modern AS/400, still IMPI and still >> SPD. This would give us a local 9-track tape capability: >> >> here are some pictures: >> >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM3430TapeDrive#5606377893749621362 >> >> What we are particularly interested to learn is whether we have the >> "master" tape drive, known as a A01 unit (that includes the controller >> electronics) or the tape-drive-only unit known as the B01 variant. >> >> We added a picture today (see very last picture) of the main >> controller electronics cage that shows several plug-in cards, is >> anyone familiar with these and can identify the variant by sight? we >> searched the entire machine looking for some designation that showed >> the model variant without success. So we assume it comes down to the >> controller cage, and we see empty slots so we wonder if it is the B01 >> variant. >> > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 22 07:57:09 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:57:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: <50FDD7EE.9040006@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <263116068-1358805158-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-863396844-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50FDD7EE.9040006@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > On 21/01/13 4:52 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> He's the dude in flushing michigan. I've never had a transaction with him >> but he's been discussed a bit elsewhere. > > I've bought stuff from Steve, no problems, and will probably buy some more > SCSI items from him soon. > Yeah, good luck with that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 09:13:13 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 07:13:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1358867593.86647.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire ? Related, but not exactly CAD/CAM, I have an ISA AT&T Targa board.? If > anyone is hot to have this, drop me an email and make me a nice swap offer. > > C: Any drivers or whatever with it? What are you looking for in trade? What about gringo dollars? ? I have no accessories or software, just the two-board sandwich. Gringo dollars works for me, make me any ol' offer.? One thing I know I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an Amiga 1000 talk to a composite monitor like a Commodore 1701.? Gots? C: No video cables like that that I know of. All I have is a couple of 5 pin din to rca and an 8 pin din to rca, probably for Atari, TI, or NEC. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 10:23:58 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:23:58 -0600 Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> On 01/22/2013 09:46 AM, Phil Budne wrote: > > Have you seen if Linux can mount your images? Yes, although these are from UTek V, and there seems to be some quirk of that particular OS which makes them not quite compatible with any of the UFS variants that Linux supports. In fact, the UFS driver in recent kernels doesn't even seem to work at all - I can mount the images, but any attempts at access results in errors. Older 2.4.x kernels do much better - to the point that back in ~2006, when I was last looking at this, using the 'sun' variant of the UFS driver seemed stable and I'd left it at that - but in some recent testing I've now seen read ops occasionally barf on certain files and directories even then; there's obviously something in the UTek implementation which trips the driver up (and some change seems to have happened in the UFS driver within the last few years which appears to have left it unable to read any of the data at all) I've recently acquired a few more fs dumps from a couple of different sources/machines, which is why I'm looking at this again - but it also means that the probability of them all being corrupt (rather than just "not-quite-compatible") is low. Hence my desire to try and pick them apart in user-land, outside of the kernel UFS implementation, to try and work out what's causing them to fail. (they all seem to be "ufs-1", incidentally, in that there's no ufs2-type information in the superblock) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 22 11:05:56 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:05:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130122090209.F24429@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have no accessories or software, just the two-board sandwich. > Gringo dollars works for me, make me any ol' offer. One thing I know > I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an Amiga 1000 talk to a > composite monitor like a Commodore 1701. Gots? What connector does a 1701 have? I used composite out of an Amiga 1000 with RCA Phono to RCA phono, RCA phono to UHF? (PL-59?), RCA Phono to BNC, and RCA phono to clip leads. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 11:54:56 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:54:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > In fact, the UFS driver in recent kernels doesn't even seem to work at all - > I can mount the images, but any attempts at access results in errors. > > Older 2.4.x kernels do much better It does seem as if non-mainstream filesystems were moved to the back burner after 2.4. SGI 'efs' and Amiga 'ffs' didn't work on a 2.6 kernel the last time I tried. I keep an old Redhat distro installed on a spare box for just such occasions. -- From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jan 22 12:40:25 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:40:25 -0500 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <20130122090209.F24429@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> <20130122090209.F24429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50FEDD19.7030704@verizon.net> On 01/22/2013 12:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have no accessories or software, just the two-board sandwich. >> Gringo dollars works for me, make me any ol' offer. One thing I know >> I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an Amiga 1000 talk to a >> composite monitor like a Commodore 1701. Gots? > What connector does a 1701 have? I used composite out of an Amiga 1000 > with RCA Phono to RCA phono, RCA phono to UHF? (PL-59?), RCA Phono to BNC, > and RCA phono to clip leads. > > > > UHF? (PL-59?.... PL-259 UHF (sic) connector was ont of the three common, BNC and RCA(aka phono) were the other two and followed behind that with card edges. The real oddball cases I've seen are SMA, SMC, plus XLR! Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 22 13:04:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:04:51 -0500 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50FEE2D3.9030701@neurotica.com> On 01/22/2013 04:56 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Dave McGuire writes: > >> One thing I know I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an >> Amiga 1000 talk to a composite monitor like a Commodore 1701. > > Isn't that just a plain phono-to-phono cable? This FAQ suggests that the > A1000 has a colour composite output already: > http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/a1000faq.html > > (Failing that, it also says the extremely common A520 modulator -- which > also provides a colour composite output -- will work with an A1000.) Duh, thanks, I'd forgotten about the standard composite output on the RCA jack. I was thinking I needed to use the DB23 connector. Nevermind. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 22 13:05:54 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:05:54 -0500 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <20130122090209.F24429@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> <20130122090209.F24429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50FEE312.4000201@neurotica.com> On 01/22/2013 12:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have no accessories or software, just the two-board sandwich. >> Gringo dollars works for me, make me any ol' offer. One thing I know >> I'm looking for is a video cable that'll make an Amiga 1000 talk to a >> composite monitor like a Commodore 1701. Gots? > > What connector does a 1701 have? I used composite out of an Amiga 1000 > with RCA Phono to RCA phono, RCA phono to UHF? (PL-59?), RCA Phono to BNC, > and RCA phono to clip leads. It has RCA jacks, but I was thinking I'd need to use the DB23 on the Amiga...I'd forgotten about the RCA output on there. (it's in another room) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 22 13:31:56 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga 1000 (Was: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of In-Reply-To: <50FEE2D3.9030701@neurotica.com> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> <50FEE2D3.9030701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130122112904.Q24429@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Duh, thanks, I'd forgotten about the standard composite output on the > RCA jack. I was thinking I needed to use the DB23 connector. Nevermind. The 1000 had all sorts of neat connectors! DB25 for serial and parallel, Dx23 floppy Dx23 video, DE9 mouse RJsomething keyboard phono audio phono composite I think that thwere was even a connector to p[ower it. From wwarthen at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 13:35:49 2013 From: wwarthen at gmail.com (Wayne Warthen) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:35:49 -0800 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project Message-ID: Yeah, I am rebooting after changing the partition table and I am being careful to "zero" the device before trying to run fdisk. A "real" Seagate ST125N is working in the same test setup, so it is possible for it to work, but I have no good way to see the exact SCSI protocol exchange with the ST125N to see what the difference is. Thanks, Wayne ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ethan Dicks To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Cc: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:01:21 -0500 Subject: Re: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> The only anomaly I have observed is that DOS 6.22 FDISK reports "No space >> for DOS partition on drive" when I try to use it to create a primary >> partition. Is he rebooting after changing the partition table under DOS 6.22? It's a known thing. You can't create the partition and use it right away. DOS did change, so it's not surprising it "works the way you expect" under DOS 3.3. DOS was full of "well _this_ sucks! Why did they do that?" moments back in the day. You might be experiencing one now. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 22 13:52:53 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:52:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Composite video (Was: . . . from the dawn of time was In-Reply-To: <50FEDD19.7030704@verizon.net> References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> <20130122090209.F24429@shell.lmi.net> <50FEDD19.7030704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130122113325.M24429@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Allison wrote: > UHF? (PL-59?.... PL-259 Thanks! I couldn't remember the right name, so I questioned it That is what I cabled my TRS80 model 1 to. > UHF (sic) connector was ont of the three common, BNC and RCA(aka phono) were > the other two and followed behind that with card edges. > The real oddball cases I've seen are SMA, SMC, plus XLR! When I taught in Evans10 at UCBerkeley thirty years ago, The overhead monitors were connected to a wall jack with a connector that was about two inches long, and about 3/8" diameter, with a center coaxial pin. I found some at Electronics Etc. (which is now LONG gone), but never knew what they are called. I was SUPPOSED to go across campus, and fill out a form to check out a cable for a few hours for each and every class session. I think that they deliberately went with a weird connector to prevent people like me from being able to connect. So, I made a cable. The half dozen enormous (by early 1980s standards) monitors worked just fine from TRS80, and then later 5150 and Amiga 1000. SUPERZAP, Trakcess, XenoXap on the big-screens for talking about directory structures! From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 22 14:07:03 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:07:03 -0600 Subject: Apple M0110 keyboard with cable Message-ID: <00e801cdf8dc$0bb55860$23200920$@com> Anybody on this list have an Apple M0110 keyboard with cable, or just the cable, that is close to Croatia? I have a fellow there that really wants one, but the shipping is too high from the US. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6049 - Release Date: 01/21/13 From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Jan 22 14:13:27 2013 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:13:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? Message-ID: So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language and manipulate. Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and then reuse it. Did I imagine this, or does someone know what I'm talking about here? Cheers; - JP From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jan 22 14:13:13 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:13:13 +0100 Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130122211313.b07a8e7cb6627d7be1058eff@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:23:58 -0600 Jules Richardson wrote: > Hence my desire to try and pick them apart > in user-land, outside of the kernel UFS implementation Hint: NetBSD has rump(3): rump itself makes it possible to run unmodified kernel components in a regular userspace process. [...] Examples of different use models are running file system drivers as userspace servers (see p2k(3)) and being able to write standalone applications which understand file system images. And as NetBSD is a BSD your chances are good that it can read BSD FFS / UFS. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ryan at hack.net Tue Jan 22 14:24:09 2013 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:24:09 -0600 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E17E3D-CB46-407A-8E5D-58F3E1E1A3C9@hack.net> AMOS? On Jan 22, 2013, at 2:13 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a > good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. > I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. > > Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember > being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and > then reuse it. > > Did I imagine this, or does someone know what I'm talking about here? > > Cheers; > > - JP > From jon at jonworld.com Tue Jan 22 14:25:13 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:25:13 -0500 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E51E1E0-9944-406B-8222-A1AE9F9B5CCB@jonworld.com> On Jan 22, 2013, at 3:13 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. Could it possibly have been Logo? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 14:32:04 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:32:04 +0000 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FEF744.7090708@gmail.com> On 22/01/2013 20:13, JP Hindin wrote: > So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a > good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. > I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. Well on the Atari we had STOS and I think on the Amiga there was AMOS perhaps... > Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember > being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and > then reuse it. > > Did I imagine this, or does someone know what I'm talking about here? > > Cheers; > > - JP > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 14:38:16 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:38:16 -0500 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 3:13 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > So back in the early '90s... a BASIC-like programming language that > allowed very easy manipulation of images and sound... COMAL? -ethan From rachael at telefisk.org Tue Jan 22 14:41:48 2013 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:41:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, JP Hindin wrote: > > So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a > good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. > I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. > Sound very much like AMOS, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOS_%28programming_language%29 , it certainly was very popular for a while. Blitz BASIC was another posibillity, but spirits and animations there of was one of the strong features of amos. > Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember > being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and > then reuse it. Some games did make that very easy, keeping the data for such things in normal files, failing that a bit of work with a picture ripper tool could usual find the imagines in the memory easyly after a reset. -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 14:56:34 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:56:34 -0500 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you mean ARexx Dan. > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:13:27 -0600 > From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? > > > So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a > good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. > I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. > > Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember > being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and > then reuse it. > > Did I imagine this, or does someone know what I'm talking about here? > > Cheers; > > - JP > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 14:58:19 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:58:19 -0200 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card References: <20130120182629.GA29642@dbit.dbit.com> <5AB21C8F-4D1A-47E7-99E5-18550A7A56C9@classiccmp.org> <1358744531.11507.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FCCDEC.4070502@neurotica.com> <1358746048.11748.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50FDB66B.5090308@neurotica.com> <50FEE2D3.9030701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BE01F1459A4467F92A64998D75C5CA4@tababook> > Duh, thanks, I'd forgotten about the standard composite output on the > RCA jack. I was thinking I needed to use the DB23 connector. Nevermind. You'd better use the db23, the amiga image deserves RGB quality. If you have a Syncmaster 510, 710, 910 or a LG M1721A, or M1921A LCDs, you can connect 15KHz RGB directly to the VGA input, and it works. From lists at loomcom.com Tue Jan 22 15:00:41 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:00:41 -0500 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130122210041.GA6043@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 02:13:27PM -0600, JP Hindin wrote: > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. [...] Hmm, not much to go on, unfortunately. It's more or less a random stab in the dark, but could it have been ARexx? ARexx was wildly popular on the Amiga. Try to find some example REXX programs and see if they look like what you remember. -Seth From schoedel at kw.igs.net Tue Jan 22 15:01:26 2013 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:01:26 -0500 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130122210044.M16341@kw.igs.net> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:13:27 -0600 (CST), JP Hindin wrote > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language [...] COMAL? -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From eallen at owt.com Tue Jan 22 15:01:56 2013 From: eallen at owt.com (Ernest G. Allen) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, JP Hindin wrote: > So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a > good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. > I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > and manipulate. > > Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember > being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and > then reuse it. > > Did I imagine this, or does someone know what I'm talking about here? > > Cheers; > > - JP Maybe "The Director" by Keith Doyle. --Ernest From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Jan 22 15:10:21 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:10:21 +0100 Subject: VMS 4 and 6 Documentation Message-ID: <201301222110.r0MLALpj019464@ls-al.eu> Hi all, I was checking out all the documentation I had scored from Camiel and found that the space needed to store the VMS 4.0 and 6.0-6.2 documentation is more than it is worth to me. So it needs to go. Pickup in the Netherlands only. For pics; http://home.ls-al.eu:8000/log/index.html?id=2013012101 re, reiche From ats at offog.org Tue Jan 22 15:11:17 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:11:17 +0000 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: (JP Hindin's message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:13:27 -0600 (CST)") References: Message-ID: JP Hindin writes: > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. That'd probably be either AMOS or Blitz Basic, both of which were great fun to play with. AMOS was around earlier; Blitz had better access to the OS. Various versions of AMOS (AMOS, Easy AMOS, AMOS 3D, AMOS Pro...) were widely distributed on magazine coverdisks in the early-mid 90s. While sorting disk boxes a few weeks ago, I was amused to discover that literally every Amiga user I knew had a copy of AMOS Pro: http://offog.org/stuff/amospro.jpg (Both AMOS and Blitz are now freely available and open source, so you can obtain them for use in an emulator or real Amiga...) > The magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, > sounds and music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into > this language and manipulate. There were plenty of programs for the Amiga that'd let you poke around in memory after a reset and see what resources a game or demo had left behind -- I remember that the LSD Legal Tools PD disks were a good source of these: http://www.amiga-stuff.com/pd/lsd-legaltools.html But the really neat tool for this sort of thing was an Action Replay cartridge, which let you interrupt a program while it was running, and drop into various rippers and debugging tools from ROM. Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 15:12:14 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:12:14 +0000 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: <43E17E3D-CB46-407A-8E5D-58F3E1E1A3C9@hack.net> References: <43E17E3D-CB46-407A-8E5D-58F3E1E1A3C9@hack.net> Message-ID: On 22 January 2013 20:24, Ryan Brooks wrote: > AMOS? That was my immediate guess, yes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Jan 22 15:16:14 2013 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:16:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: <43E17E3D-CB46-407A-8E5D-58F3E1E1A3C9@hack.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Ryan Brooks wrote: > AMOS? Based on what I can find, we appear to have a winner. Thanks all; - JP > On Jan 22, 2013, at 2:13 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > > So back in the early '90s when I was a boy scout (which is not usually a > > good start to a story) we had a camp leader who had a couple of Amigas. > > I'm certain one was a 1200, but I'm not sure that's relevant. > > > > At any rate, he had a BASIC-like programming language that allowed very > > easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games. The > > magic thing was that he would very easily steal tiles, sprites, sounds and > > music from _commercial_ games which he could then drop into this language > > and manipulate. > > > > Now, I'm remembering this from across the void of time, but I remember > > being really amazed that he could so easily pull a sprite from a game and > > then reuse it. > > > > Did I imagine this, or does someone know what I'm talking about here? > > > > Cheers; > > > > - JP > > > > From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Jan 22 15:41:32 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:41:32 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format Message-ID: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> (Think I may have goofed on my earlier post (excess formatting)) Hiya, Just wondering if anyone has a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2C that already has Kermit installed, that could make a Image Disk of it and upload it someplace? I have Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program, and I've successfully transferred several programs to the machine this way, but I'd like to have a comm program to transfer stuff, as I'm using a modified cable from the existing 8" floppy drive to an old win98/DOS PC for transfers, and I don't like to disconnect and connect those 50 pin edge connectors on and off the boards too many times. I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). I also tried the host terminal transfer, but hex files seem to wreak havoc and don't transfer properly. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. If anyone can help out, it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks. Dave Land Land Computer Service From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 15:42:24 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:42:24 +0000 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 January 2013 20:56, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I think you mean ARexx ARexx? Really? You think ARexx did "very easy manipulation of images and sound and used it to construct games"? I'd say ARexx was a scripting language, not a graphics one. The closest fit is AMOS and after that BlitzBASIC, I reckon. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 15:59:47 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:59:47 +0000 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 January 2013 21:01, Ernest G. Allen wrote: > Maybe "The Director" by Keith Doyle. Ooh, now that's an interesting one. I'd not heard of that. http://rs79.vrx.net/opinions/ideas/computers/Amiga/ ? Why the Amiga rawked and why Cnet are a bunch of doody-heads ST? Render unto me a fucking break. ? http://www.webomator.com/2007/08/23/digital-abstractions-by-keith-doyle/ ? Keith wrote one of the most useful applications I used on the Amiga (?the Director? ? a few years before Macromedia fastened on that name). The Director was a version of the BASIC programming language which included powerful extensions for displaying and manipulating graphics and sound. ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 16:13:56 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:13:56 -0800 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Wayne Warthen wrote: > Yeah, I am rebooting after changing the partition table and I am being > careful to "zero" the device before trying to run fdisk. A "real" Seagate > ST125N is working in the same test setup, so it is possible for it to work, > but I have no good way to see the exact SCSI protocol exchange with the > ST125N to see what the difference is. Do none of you currently working on this project have a SCSI protocol analyzer to use? Do you happen to have any HP logic analyzers? If you do, I have an HP E2423A SCSI Bus Preprocessor Interface that you could borrow (WA, USA) if it would help you make progress on this project. (This is also known as a FuturePlus FS2230). http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/E2423-90904.pdf I also have an HP 10343B SCSI Bus Preprocessor, but do not have the Config and IA files for that one. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/te/10343-90901_scsiPrepr_Sep88.pdf -Glen From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Jan 22 16:50:36 2013 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:50:36 -0800 Subject: Datasheets for SDA-5, other old part numbers? Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking at the schematics for some old DEC boards, and I'm having some trouble locating datasheets for the old parts. I know, for instance, that the SDA-6 was a matched pair of transistors, and equivalent to the 2N2060. I can get a datasheet for the 2N2060 (nd pretend it's a datasheet for the SDA-6). But what about the other SDA-n? In particular, at the moment I am looking for a datasheet for the SDA-5. All I know so far is the pin-out, and that it was a matched pair of NPN transistors. (Oh yeah, and the DEC part number was 15-01857.) Similarly for diodes. I know a D662 is equivalent to a 1N945, but what the heck are the parameters for a D007? Any pointers to old data books or whatever would help. Thanks, Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 17:15:00 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:15:00 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Dave Land wrote: > (Think I may have goofed on my earlier post (excess formatting)) > > Hiya, > Just wondering if anyone has a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2C that already has > Kermit installed, that could make a Image Disk of it and upload it > someplace? I have Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program, and I've successfully > transferred several programs to the machine this way, but I'd like to have a > comm program to transfer stuff, as I'm using a modified cable from the > existing 8" floppy drive to an old win98/DOS PC for transfers, and I don't > like to disconnect and connect those 50 pin edge connectors on and off the > boards too many times. > > I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them > transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much > (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). I also tried the host terminal transfer, but hex files > seem to wreak havoc and don't transfer properly. So I'm kind of stuck > between a rock and a hard place. If anyone can help out, it would be greatly > appreciated! Thanks. > > Dave Land > Land Computer Service Have you looked at Cpmtools? http://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/index.htm If you already have an image of a bootable disk for the target system, and you already have the files you want to copy onto a bootable disk for the target system, you should be able to use Cpmtools to copy the files onto the image of the bootable disk. Then write that updated image out to a physical disk. Then if all goes well that should be the last time you need to use the Image Disk setup. The only tricky part about using Cpmtools is that you usually have to create a new disk format specification entry in the diskdefs file, which can take some work to figure out, but shouldn't be too bad. -Glen From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 22 17:36:07 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:36:07 -0800 Subject: another in a series: somebody paid what for that? Message-ID: IBM 370/138 front panel : 4900$ The sad part is the original wiring has been gutted and a silly LCD screen&computer has been stuck in it. 321051214549 http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-System-370-Model-138-Mainframe-Operator- Control-Panel-1974-/321051214549?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch% 2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D321051214549%26_rdc% 3D1&nma=true&si=RgBCBl627pizsXRcJnGCtT2Mxe4% 253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_784wt_0 From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 22 18:00:53 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (evan at snarc.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 00:00:53 +0000 Subject: VCF East 9.0 postponed Message-ID: <398717233-1358899255-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-39577177-@b1.c15.bise6.blackberry> VCF East 9.0, scheduled for May 18-19 this year, is postponed to next year. That's because our venue sustained some Sandy-related damage. It's nothing unfixable (and no artifacts in our museum were harmed), but we are not certain about having the buildings repaired in time for the show. So, in spring 2014, we'll host VCF East 9.1. ;) However we will probably have a swap meet and/or other smaller events this year. Details TBD. In the meantime, there's VCF Southeast 1.0, VCF Europa, and VCF Midwest this year. (I don't know the details about Southwest or UK.) Sellam is still looking for someone * immensely qualified * to take over VCF West. The person MUST: 1. have proven experience and success in running a sizeable convention; 2. be extremely reliable; 3. understand modern marketing techniques; and 4. have substantial time to devote to the show. If anyone's interested and qualified, then feel free to contact me, and I can help you understand what's involved. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 22 18:10:00 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:10:00 -0500 Subject: migration pretty much complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FF2A58.50509@compsys.to> >William Donzelli wrote: >>thank you for your efforts Jay, I appreciate moving stuff around is >>time-consuming and arduous activity. >> >> > >As do I. Thank you for making everything possible. > And I add my enthusiastic appreciation as well. Jerome Fine From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 18:14:13 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:14:13 -0500 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Yes, lots of games and stuff were done in ARexx, sound and images, etc. and btw quoting vrx/sexton as a source automatically disqualifies you Dan. > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:42:24 +0000 > Subject: Re: What was that old Amiga programming language...? > From: lproven at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 22 January 2013 20:56, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I think you mean ARexx > > ARexx? Really? > > You think ARexx did "very easy manipulation of images and sound and > used it to construct games"? > > I'd say ARexx was a scripting language, not a graphics one. > > The closest fit is AMOS and after that BlitzBASIC, I reckon. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 22 18:25:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:25:26 -0500 Subject: another in a series: somebody paid what for that? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FF2DF6.1000105@neurotica.com> On 01/22/2013 06:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > IBM 370/138 front panel : 4900$ I don't think we should find that at all surprising. > The sad part is the original wiring has been gutted and a silly LCD > screen&computer has been stuck in it. > > 321051214549 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-System-370-Model-138-Mainframe-Operator-Control-Panel-1974-/321051214549?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D321051214549%26_rdc%3D1&nma=true&si=RgBCBl627pizsXRcJnGCtT2Mxe4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_784wt_0 Yes, that is indeed pretty sad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 22 18:26:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:26:49 -0500 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FF2E49.5090203@neurotica.com> On 01/22/2013 05:13 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Yeah, I am rebooting after changing the partition table and I am being >> careful to "zero" the device before trying to run fdisk. A "real" Seagate >> ST125N is working in the same test setup, so it is possible for it to work, >> but I have no good way to see the exact SCSI protocol exchange with the >> ST125N to see what the difference is. > > Do none of you currently working on this project have a SCSI protocol > analyzer to use? I'm not working on that project, but I do have an Ancot SCSI protocol analyzer if anyone needs to borrow it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 18:42:17 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:42:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple M0110 keyboard with cable Message-ID: <1358901737.46694.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What kind of k/b is that. If I have one *maybe* Ill send it to him. My mum is Hrvatska. You have to ask him where he at for me though (town). ------------------------------ On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 12:07 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Anybody on this list have an Apple M0110 keyboard with cable, or just the >cable, that is close to Croatia? I have a fellow there that really wants >one, but the shipping is too high from the US. > > > >Cindy Croxton > > > > _____ > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6049 - Release Date: 01/21/13 > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 22 18:45:27 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:45:27 -0500 Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <263116068-1358805158-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-863396844-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50FDD7EE.9040006@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50FF32A7.3040006@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/01/13 8:57 AM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 21/01/13 4:52 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>> He's the dude in flushing michigan. I've never had a transaction with >>> him but he's been discussed a bit elsewhere. >> >> I've bought stuff from Steve, no problems, and will probably buy some >> more SCSI items from him soon. >> > Yeah, good luck with that. Thanks! --T > > g. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 18:49:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:49:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card Message-ID: <1358902185.1115.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> But the 1701/1702 accepts separate chroma and luminance portions of ntsc, right? I bet the Amiger don't put that out. I have a busted 1702, keeper, and a 1084s on ebay. If anyone needs it, bust a move. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 12:58 PM PST Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> Duh, thanks, I'd forgotten about the standard composite output on the >> RCA jack. I was thinking I needed to use the DB23 connector. Nevermind. > > You'd better use the db23, the amiga image deserves RGB quality. > > If you have a Syncmaster 510, 710, 910 or a LG M1721A, or M1921A LCDs, you can connect 15KHz RGB directly to the VGA input, and it works. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Jan 22 18:54:34 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:54:34 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <50FF34CA.8070800@landcomp.net> Have you looked at Cpmtools? http://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/index.htm If you already have an image of a bootable disk for the target system, and you already have the files you want to copy onto a bootable disk for the target system, you should be able to use Cpmtools to copy the files onto the image of the bootable disk. Then write that updated image out to a physical disk. Then if all goes well that should be the last time you need to use the Image Disk setup. The only tricky part about using Cpmtools is that you usually have to create a new disk format specification entry in the diskdefs file, which can take some work to figure out, but shouldn't be too bad. -Glen Ahaa!! I forgot about CPMTools. Haven't been feeling too well lately, so I was starting to grab at straws here. I think the diskdefs file may already have the 8" 77 track format. I'll dig into it and let you know what I come up with. :) Thanks! Dave Land Land Computer Service > > From wwarthen at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 19:04:49 2013 From: wwarthen at gmail.com (Wayne Warthen) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:04:49 -0800 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At present, I have only a Saleae logic analyzer. It is very helpful, but hard to use for actual SCSI protocol analysis when the issue is buried somewhere in thousands of SCIS command exchanges. :-) As I understand it, one of the other builders does have a SCSI analyzer. Once he gets his board fully functional, we can probably rely on him for some of this. On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Wayne Warthen > wrote: > > Yeah, I am rebooting after changing the partition table and I am being > > careful to "zero" the device before trying to run fdisk. A "real" > Seagate > > ST125N is working in the same test setup, so it is possible for it to > work, > > but I have no good way to see the exact SCSI protocol exchange with the > > ST125N to see what the difference is. > > Do none of you currently working on this project have a SCSI protocol > analyzer to use? > > Do you happen to have any HP logic analyzers? If you do, I have an HP > E2423A SCSI Bus Preprocessor Interface that you could borrow (WA, USA) > if it would help you make progress on this project. (This is also > known as a FuturePlus FS2230). > > http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/E2423-90904.pdf > > > I also have an HP 10343B SCSI Bus Preprocessor, but do not have the > Config and IA files for that one. > > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/te/10343-90901_scsiPrepr_Sep88.pdf > > > -Glen > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 19:44:54 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:44:54 -0200 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project References: <50FF2E49.5090203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I'm not working on that project, but I do have an Ancot SCSI protocol > analyzer if anyone needs to borrow it. And if someone has a CHEAP SCSI protocol analyser, I'm mildly interested :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 22 20:10:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:10:10 -0500 Subject: Targa, was Re: CAD/CAM boards from the dawn of time was Re: Looking for bits for Number nine pepper ISA 1987 video card In-Reply-To: <1358902185.1115.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358902185.1115.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50FF4682.6020507@neurotica.com> On 01/22/2013 07:49 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > But the 1701/1702 accepts separate chroma and luminance portions of > ntsc, right? Yes. (and mine's a 1702, not a 1701) > I bet the Amiger don't put that out. I thought it did, but I honestly don't recall. > I have a busted 1702, keeper, and a 1084s on ebay. If anyone needs > it, bust a move. Is that 1702 a parts unit? If so, I need the little flip-down door for the front. Can do? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 22 21:33:23 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:33:23 -0800 Subject: USB trace analysis Message-ID: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org> I was trying to find the old Macintosh software SCSI analyzer program, and came across this (unrelated other than they were analyzing USB SCSI traffic) http://vusb-analyzer.sourceforge.net/ Looks pretty cool for analyzing USB traffic. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 21:44:06 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:44:06 -0800 Subject: USB trace analysis In-Reply-To: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org> References: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2013 7:34 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > I was trying to find the old Macintosh software SCSI analyzer program, and came across this (unrelated other than they were > analyzing USB SCSI traffic) > > http://vusb-analyzer.sourceforge.net/ > > Looks pretty cool for analyzing USB traffic. > I have always used a hardware analyzer such as a LeCroy USBTracer whenever I have needed to look at USB traffic. For some things you need to see what is actually happening on the bus. This software tool might be interesting for looking at some things at a higher level. From g-wright at att.net Tue Jan 22 23:44:06 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS, Hp 7970E (9 track tape) located in Kent WA. Message-ID: <1358919846.50485.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Very nice unit, last used in 2010 300.00 local pickup only. - Jerry Jerry Wright 253-569-6041 g-wright at att.net From phil at ultimate.com Tue Jan 22 09:46:30 2013 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:46:30 -0500 Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> Have you seen if Linux can mount your images? http://wiki.netbsd.org/tutorials/how_to_mount_ffs_partition_under_linux/ OR any of the actual BSD systems for that matter? It looks like FUSE support for UFS2 exists: https://www.gutzmann.se/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=6651931 That would give you the ability to tweak a user-mode program if anything is different. And of course you can find historical BSD code at: http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl http://www.tuhs.org/ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 22 11:36:34 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:36:34 -0800 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FECE22.6040809@jwsss.com> I think on the AS/400 there is only a single cable at least for the 3410, and not bus / tag. If this was hooked to a mainframe with bus / tag, you won't get it hooked to an AS/400 with the same electronics. Also you have a mix of 370 and 390 cables, there are frequently issues with which you use where. I think you had to have 370 cables between the controller and the device, but the blue cables would work for the channels. I'm interested in that you do have what looks to be bus / tag termination. However photo of the connector in the device has only one connector visible with power cabling blocking the view of the bottom of the channel connector. If there are bus / tag connectors below then I'm a bit confused about what you have given that the ones we had only had one cable. I bought a lot of equipment at one time and snagged one off of an AS/400 before I found out it didn't do mainframe, and at least for the 3410 is a single cable affair. the 3430 we had at a facility I worked at was a single unit and had to be an A unit, but I never looked into the box to know what it looked like. jim On 1/22/2013 4:53 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > According to:- > > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-ProdAnn/3430.pdf > > only the "A" drive has power, the "B" is powered from the "A" so it looks > very likely that you have an "A" unit. > > > On 22 January 2013 12:45, Dave Wade wrote: > >> I suspect it is an "A" drive as it has a pair of BUS and TAG sockets and >> normally on Mainframe channels only the "A" type devices have these, and >> then the "B" drives use some other kind of cable to tie into the head of >> string but this may not be true for 3430 drives. >> >> However there should also be some jumpers to set the channel address and I >> can't see those any where, so perhaps 3430 are daisy changed alog the >> channel... >> >> >> On 22 January 2013 11:12, Nigel Williams wrote: >> >>> A good friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive, originally >>> connected to an IMPI AS/400, and we are now hopeful that it could be >>> reconnected to a slightly more modern AS/400, still IMPI and still >>> SPD. This would give us a local 9-track tape capability: >>> >>> here are some pictures: >>> >>> >>> https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM3430TapeDrive#5606377893749621362 >>> >>> What we are particularly interested to learn is whether we have the >>> "master" tape drive, known as a A01 unit (that includes the controller >>> electronics) or the tape-drive-only unit known as the B01 variant. >>> >>> We added a picture today (see very last picture) of the main >>> controller electronics cage that shows several plug-in cards, is >>> anyone familiar with these and can identify the variant by sight? we >>> searched the entire machine looking for some designation that showed >>> the model variant without success. So we assume it comes down to the >>> controller cage, and we see empty slots so we wonder if it is the B01 >>> variant. >>> >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 00:16:00 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:16:00 -0800 Subject: Telebit modem card In-Reply-To: References: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: I found an old Telebit modem card. I believe it is a Traiblazer, nota Trailblazer+. I was wondering if anyone had a list of the commandset for it.I can find the Traiblazer+ on the web but not the original Trailblazer.I realize it is a superset of the orignal but need to know what changed.The card is unusual, in that it has a 68K, a TMS32010, MC2661 andthe 8250.I would guess the 8250 is just for the bus interface ( PC board ) andit used the 2661 for serializing data.It looks like this may have been the orignal ADSL concept. It was saidto use 512 channels, each with a maximum speed of 6 baud, in the PEP mode.An interesting modem.Dwight From g-wright at att.net Wed Jan 23 00:16:57 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:16:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: More house cleaning. Kent Wa. Message-ID: <1358921817.79036.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> 1) SGI Onyx desk side Reality Engine 2 Has drives and loaded OS, Good condition Missing front cover (skin), Has PS2 keyboard adapter 200.00 local pick up only (4) GRID 5 1/4 GPIB external floppies. Internal power supply. came from the military. 12x13x2 in. look new. can ship. 20.00 + shipping 1) Wang PC-002 old large style. has floppy, HD and keyboard. No Monitor. Uses a Wang monitor only Free, local pickup only NCR PC all-in one type no keyboard, 2 floppy system Free, local pickup only. Heavy - Jerry Jerry Wright 253-569-6041 g-wright at att.net From rachael at telefisk.org Wed Jan 23 01:27:36 2013 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:27:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Yes, lots of games and stuff were done in ARexx, sound and images, etc. yes lots of stuff was made with it, but not many games, and certanly not any with sounds or graphics. A search for "arexx game" on aminet brings up excatly 3 hits. Arexx is a scripting language and has no functions to manipulate anything but strings, you could use the many library add ons, but I have never seen anything to facilitate anything more graphical than gui's like gadtoolbox, triton or mui. That said its not totally impossible with the help of some arexx add on libraries to have access to all os functions, but quick look at the sources in the http://aminet.net/package/util/rexx/Rxgen package , shows how ill suited it was for such things. -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 01:28:58 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:28:58 +0000 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive In-Reply-To: <50FECE22.6040809@jwsss.com> References: <50FECE22.6040809@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Jim, Some of the AS/400 manuals show how to connect the drive. The small connector with the trailing bus and tag leads goes in the AS/400 and the bus and tag go to the drive. The manuals also suggest there should be a grey and a blue bus/tag cable. Dave G4UGM On Jan 23, 2013 6:15 AM, "jim s" wrote: > I think on the AS/400 there is only a single cable at least for the 3410, > and not bus / tag. If this was hooked to a mainframe with bus / tag, you > won't get it hooked to an AS/400 with the same electronics. > > Also you have a mix of 370 and 390 cables, there are frequently issues > with which you use where. I think you had to have 370 cables between the > controller and the device, but the blue cables would work for the channels. > > I'm interested in that you do have what looks to be bus / tag termination. > However photo of the connector in the device has only one connector > visible with power cabling blocking the view of the bottom of the channel > connector. If there are bus / tag connectors below then I'm a bit confused > about what you have given that the ones we had only had one cable. > > I bought a lot of equipment at one time and snagged one off of an AS/400 > before I found out it didn't do mainframe, and at least for the 3410 is a > single cable affair. > > the 3430 we had at a facility I worked at was a single unit and had to be > an A unit, but I never looked into the box to know what it looked like. > > jim > > On 1/22/2013 4:53 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> According to:- >> >> http://ed-thelen.org/comp-**hist/IBM-ProdAnn/3430.pdf >> >> only the "A" drive has power, the "B" is powered from the "A" so it looks >> very likely that you have an "A" unit. >> >> >> On 22 January 2013 12:45, Dave Wade wrote: >> >> I suspect it is an "A" drive as it has a pair of BUS and TAG sockets and >>> normally on Mainframe channels only the "A" type devices have these, and >>> then the "B" drives use some other kind of cable to tie into the head of >>> string but this may not be true for 3430 drives. >>> >>> However there should also be some jumpers to set the channel address and >>> I >>> can't see those any where, so perhaps 3430 are daisy changed alog the >>> channel... >>> >>> >>> On 22 January 2013 11:12, Nigel Williams ** >>> wrote: >>> >>> A good friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive, originally >>>> connected to an IMPI AS/400, and we are now hopeful that it could be >>>> reconnected to a slightly more modern AS/400, still IMPI and still >>>> SPD. This would give us a local 9-track tape capability: >>>> >>>> here are some pictures: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://picasaweb.google.com/**118247290269860741639/** >>>> IBM3430TapeDrive#**5606377893749621362 >>>> >>>> What we are particularly interested to learn is whether we have the >>>> "master" tape drive, known as a A01 unit (that includes the controller >>>> electronics) or the tape-drive-only unit known as the B01 variant. >>>> >>>> We added a picture today (see very last picture) of the main >>>> controller electronics cage that shows several plug-in cards, is >>>> anyone familiar with these and can identify the variant by sight? we >>>> searched the entire machine looking for some designation that showed >>>> the model variant without success. So we assume it comes down to the >>>> controller cage, and we see empty slots so we wonder if it is the B01 >>>> variant. >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 23 02:20:50 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 03:20:50 -0500 Subject: More house cleaning. Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <1358921817.79036.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1358921817.79036.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50FF9D62.7020104@neurotica.com> On 01/23/2013 01:16 AM, Jerry Wright wrote: > 1) SGI Onyx desk side Reality Engine 2 > > Has drives and loaded OS, Good condition > Missing front cover (skin), Has PS2 keyboard adapter > > 200.00 local pick up only *droooooool*, I wish I was on the other cost! > 1) Wang PC-002 old large style. has floppy, HD > and keyboard. No Monitor. Uses a Wang monitor only > Free, local pickup only Hey, I used to repair these! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ats at offog.org Wed Jan 23 05:13:21 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 11:13:21 +0000 Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: (Steven Hirsch's message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:54:56 -0500 (EST)") References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: Steven Hirsch writes: > SGI 'efs' and Amiga 'ffs' didn't work on a 2.6 kernel the last time I > tried. affs works fine on 3.4.24 -- I've been using it to shovel data back and forth to my A1200 using a CF card lately. -- Adam Sampson From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 06:21:02 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 04:21:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: More house cleaning. Kent Wa. Message-ID: <1358943662.493.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 10:16 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: > 1) SGI Onyx desk side Reality Engine 2 > > Has drives and loaded OS, Good condition > Missing front cover (skin), Has PS2 keyboard adapter > > 200.00 local pick up only > > (4) GRID 5 1/4 GPIB external floppies. Internal > power supply. came from the military. 12x13x2 in. > look new. can ship. 20.00 + shipping > > 1) Wang PC-002 old large style. has floppy, HD > and keyboard. No Monitor. Uses a Wang monitor only > Free, local pickup only > > NCR PC all-in one type no keyboard, 2 floppy system > Free, local pickup only. Heavy > > >- Jerry > >Jerry Wright >253-569-6041 >g-wright at att.net is the NCR color or mono, pc4 or decision mate? From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 06:28:36 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:28:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: UFS filesystems In-Reply-To: References: <50FDBA96.10707@gmail.com> <201301221546.r0MFkUS4074431@ultimate.com> <50FEBD1E.5080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Adam Sampson wrote: > Steven Hirsch writes: > >> SGI 'efs' and Amiga 'ffs' didn't work on a 2.6 kernel the last time I >> tried. > > affs works fine on 3.4.24 -- I've been using it to shovel data back and > forth to my A1200 using a CF card lately. Good to know. I'll have to give it another try. -- From jthecman at netscape.net Wed Jan 23 06:44:44 2013 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:44:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF East 9.0 postponed In-Reply-To: <398717233-1358899255-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-39577177-@b1.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <398717233-1358899255-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-39577177-@b1.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <8CFC77E8DF53633-1EA0-32D11@Webmail-m107.sysops.aol.com> FYI VCF 4 Southwest will be held on Aug 10th and 11th in Arlington Texas on the UT campus. If you can come visit us. John -----Original Message----- From: evan To: cctalk Sent: Wed, Jan 23, 2013 12:26 am Subject: VCF East 9.0 postponed VCF East 9.0, scheduled for May 18-19 this year, is postponed to next year. That's because our venue sustained some Sandy-related damage. It's nothing unfixable (and no artifacts in our museum were harmed), but we are not certain about having the buildings repaired in time for the show. So, in spring 2014, we'll host VCF East 9.1. ;) However we will probably have a swap meet and/or other smaller events this year. Details TBD. In the meantime, there's VCF Southeast 1.0, VCF Europa, and VCF Midwest this year. (I don't know the details about Southwest or UK.) Sellam is still looking for someone * immensely qualified * to take over VCF West. The person MUST: 1. have proven experience and success in running a sizeable convention; 2. be extremely reliable; 3. understand modern marketing techniques; and 4. have substantial time to devote to the show. If anyone's interested and qualified, then feel free to contact me, and I can help you understand what's involved. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 23 07:17:47 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 05:17:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > The closest fit is AMOS and after that BlitzBASIC, I reckon. > There's actually a modern compiler called BlitzBASIC that is highly optimized and popular with folks that make games. It can be found at http://www.blitzbasic.com g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Jan 23 07:22:04 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:22:04 -0500 Subject: Wintertime Cleanout sale In-Reply-To: <50FF32A7.3040006@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50FB1B85.8090609@gmail.com> <1358644980.74825.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <263116068-1358805158-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-863396844-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50FDD7EE.9040006@telegraphics.com.au> <50FF32A7.3040006@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130123132204.GE25454@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Toby Thain [130122 20:48]: > On 22/01/13 8:57 AM, geneb wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > > > >> On 21/01/13 4:52 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > >>> He's the dude in flushing michigan. I've never had a transaction with > >>> him but he's been discussed a bit elsewhere. > >> > >> I've bought stuff from Steve, no problems, and will probably buy some > >> more SCSI items from him soon. > >> > > Yeah, good luck with that. > > Thanks! > > --T > > > > > g. > > For what it's worth, I just purchased something from him against my better judgement. And it arrived yesterday in one piece. Todd From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Jan 23 09:07:09 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:07:09 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <50FFFC9D.7030509@landcomp.net> On 1/22/13 4:15 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Dave Land wrote: >> (Think I may have goofed on my earlier post (excess formatting)) >> >> Hiya, >> Just wondering if anyone has a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2C that already has >> Kermit installed, that could make a Image Disk of it and upload it >> someplace? I have Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program, and I've successfully >> transferred several programs to the machine this way, but I'd like to have a >> comm program to transfer stuff, as I'm using a modified cable from the >> existing 8" floppy drive to an old win98/DOS PC for transfers, and I don't >> like to disconnect and connect those 50 pin edge connectors on and off the >> boards too many times. >> >> I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them >> transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much >> (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). I also tried the host terminal transfer, but hex files >> seem to wreak havoc and don't transfer properly. So I'm kind of stuck >> between a rock and a hard place. If anyone can help out, it would be greatly >> appreciated! Thanks. >> >> Dave Land >> Land Computer Service > Have you looked at Cpmtools? http://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/index.htm > > If you already have an image of a bootable disk for the target system, > and you already have the files you want to copy onto a bootable disk > for the target system, you should be able to use Cpmtools to copy the > files onto the image of the bootable disk. Then write that updated > image out to a physical disk. Then if all goes well that should be > the last time you need to use the Image Disk setup. > > The only tricky part about using Cpmtools is that you usually have to > create a new disk format specification entry in the diskdefs file, > which can take some work to figure out, but shouldn't be too bad. > > -Glen Well, I researched the settings for the diskdefs and couldn't find anything pertinent to the Xerox 820... BUT, I got curious about the Dave Maslin archive and downloaded that last night, and lo & behold, there's a copy of 22disk in there with ALL the oddball 8" disk formats and everything else, essentially, a copy of the C: drive from his DOS PC he used to copy disks, I'm assuming. I'll give that a try this evening if I have time. Many thanks to Dave Maslin, (R.I.P.) and to whoever compiled all this stuff and got it uploaded! Dave Land Land Computer Service > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 09:21:11 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:21:11 -0500 Subject: USB trace analysis In-Reply-To: References: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <26DFC25A-8217-485B-B469-FAF8B6C21B48@gmail.com> On Jan 22, 2013, at 10:44 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Jan 22, 2013 7:34 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >> http://vusb-analyzer.sourceforge.net/ >> >> Looks pretty cool for analyzing USB traffic. >> > > I have always used a hardware analyzer such as a LeCroy USBTracer whenever > I have needed to look at USB traffic. For some things you need to see what > is actually happening on the bus. > > This software tool might be interesting for looking at some things at a > higher level. Software like that works fine as long as all you need to see is the stream of bytes and the sequence of transactions. For all of the reverse engineering stuff I've done on USB protocols, that's been quite enough. This also looks a little nicer than the $80 commercial stuff I was using in 2003. If you need to analyze things like signal quality and raw bit timing, then yeah, I guess you need something external. Most of the software ones can see everything the OS sees coming from the raw USB host port driver, though. That does mean that if you're debugging a device that's having problems, say, in the enumeration phase, this won't be of much use. - Dave From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 23 09:29:01 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:01 +0100 Subject: FS: Finisar FTLX8571D3BCL 10GBASE-SR/SW SFP+ Message-ID: <510001BD.6060900@xs4all.nl> Anyone interested in a Finisar FTLX8571D3BCL 10GBASE-SR SFP+ (850 nm, MMF, LC) transceiver, for a suitable 10 gigabit ethernet NIC. Feel free to make me an offer. (The object is located in the Netherlands and I'm willing to ship internationally.) Here's a picture (not my picture, although I can make one), but mine is identical: - MG From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 09:47:18 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:47:18 -0500 Subject: Apple M0110 keyboard with cable In-Reply-To: <1358901737.46694.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358901737.46694.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BAE69F1-99CC-4AB8-86EE-B0A54189058D@gmail.com> On Jan 22, 2013, at 7:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 12:07 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> Anybody on this list have an Apple M0110 keyboard with cable, or just the >> cable, that is close to Croatia? I have a fellow there that really wants >> one, but the shipping is too high from the US. >> > What kind of k/b is that. If I have one *maybe* Ill send it to him. My mum is Hrvatska. You have to ask him where he at for me though (town). It's the original Mac (128K and 512K, not Plus) keyboard. Phone jack connection, no arrow keys. - Dave From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 23 10:18:02 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:18:02 +0000 Subject: USB trace analysis Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25286F74@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> On Jan 22, 2013 7:34 PM, "Al Kossow" > wrote: > http://vusb-analyzer.sourceforge.net/ > Looks pretty cool for analyzing USB traffic. I've used it in conjunction with USBMON to sniff mostly working USB traffic (ironically running in Windows in VMWare on a linux box) to reverse engineer mostly-working protocols. I also used some perl scripts for trolling through the usbmon output dumps. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 12:00:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:00:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: > I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them > transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much > (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). What kind of problems? If 22disk has difficulties with your 8" drives, then whatever THAT problem is may need to be dealt with for any other software attempts. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Jan 23 13:24:29 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 12:24:29 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> On 1/23/13 11:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: >> I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them >> transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much >> (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). > What kind of problems? > If 22disk has difficulties with your 8" drives, then whatever THAT > problem is may need to be dealt with for any other software attempts. The version I had didn't have the necessary info in the diskdefs file for the 8" drive on the 820-II, but like I mentioned earlier, I got a diskdefs file that has that, and a lot more, from the Dave Maslin archive. Going to try tonight if I have time to work with it. I've gotten successful copies already via Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program so I know it works somewhat. Dave Land Land Computer Service ...too many Dave's... :-) > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 14:11:45 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 12:11:45 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> On 01/23/2013 11:24 AM, Dave Land wrote: > > On 1/23/13 11:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: >>> I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them >>> transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much >>> (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). >> What kind of problems? >> If 22disk has difficulties with your 8" drives, then whatever THAT >> problem is may need to be dealt with for any other software attempts. > > The version I had didn't have the necessary info in the diskdefs file for > the 8" drive on the 820-II, but like I mentioned earlier, I got a diskdefs > file that has that, and a lot more, from the Dave Maslin archive. Going to > try tonight if I have time to work with it. I've gotten successful copies > already via Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program so I know it works somewhat. That's odd--I don't remember ever adding an 8" 820-II format to 22Disk--lots of 820-II 5.25" formats, though. As far as I can tell, the only 8" Xerox format is for the 16/8 system. And Don got his 22Disk from me--and he was a registered user. We still sell 22Disk, though not in great numbers (sold 4 licenses in December). So now we know where the rumors about 22Disk not working with 8" drives comes from... Will your 820-II read type A1 disks? If your PC can write single-density (FM) you might start with that. But then, what do I know? --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 15:09:36 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:09:36 +1100 Subject: Help with an IBM 3430 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have positive identification! we do have an A01 variant of the IBM 3430, so it is functional as a standalone unit. We were sent a snippet of an IBM parts catalogue (thanks to Herman from The Netherlands) for the 3430 and it clearly shows the differences between A01 and B01 units: 1. The most obvious indication(!) is the front-panel on the top-right of the unit. The A01 has 6 switches and several extra indicator lights, whereas the B01 has just 4 switches and fewer lights. We will get some pictures onto the gallery that will make this description easier to interpret - the A01 operator panel appearance is busy, the B01 operator panel appears minimalist. 2. As has been noted in this thread, the 3430 is a bus/tag peripheral. As it happens the B01 variants are connected via specific flat white ribbon cables to allow reduced/simpler cabling - this is highlighted in the 3430 brochure as a positive selling point since underfloor cabling was not required for the additional B01 units. Only the A01 has the bulky bus/tag sockets to connect to the host system. 3. The last picture in our picture gallery showing the large box of circuit cards (that incidentally has two prominent fans mounted directly on top - they are quite noticeable when you remove the main front cover) - this is only fitted to the A01 and holds the controller electronics shared among the entire daisy-chain of tape drives. This space is empty on the B01 as it relies on the controller from the A01. On opening a B01 someone would be struck by how empty the space under the tape drive appears. Once these differences are known then it explains why there are no designations on the unit, it is quite easy to tell them apart with this information. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 16:05:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:05:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130123140143.A55344@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So now we know where the rumors about 22Disk not working with 8" drives > comes from... "Doesn't work with CP/M disks! Tried an Apple CP/M and it kept giving me an error code 2!" > But then, what do I know? "But, they both turn at the same speed!" I don't know from 820. But, if "cpmtools" (which doesn't even seem to have SIDES as a parameter) can do it, . . . From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:21:26 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:21:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/23/2013 11:24 AM, Dave Land wrote: >> >> On 1/23/13 11:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: >>>> I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them >>>> transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much >>>> (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). >>> What kind of problems? >>> If 22disk has difficulties with your 8" drives, then whatever THAT >>> problem is may need to be dealt with for any other software attempts. >> >> The version I had didn't have the necessary info in the diskdefs file for >> the 8" drive on the 820-II, but like I mentioned earlier, I got a diskdefs >> file that has that, and a lot more, from the Dave Maslin archive. Going to >> try tonight if I have time to work with it. I've gotten successful copies >> already via Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program so I know it works somewhat. > > That's odd--I don't remember ever adding an 8" 820-II format to 22Disk--lots > of 820-II 5.25" formats, though. As far as I can tell, the only 8" Xerox > format is for the 16/8 system. And Don got his 22Disk from me--and he was a > registered user. We still sell 22Disk, though not in great numbers (sold 4 > licenses in December). > > So now we know where the rumors about 22Disk not working with 8" drives comes > from... I'm a registered owner of 22Disk and have used it for years with 8" drives. I don't recall writing a diskdef, but it's possible. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 16:46:26 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:46:26 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51006842.9020001@sydex.com> On 01/23/2013 02:21 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm a registered owner of 22Disk and have used it for years with 8" > drives. I don't recall writing a diskdef, but it's possible. Certainly it is--we even provide hints. We do have a policy that we will not add a definition to the database without a smaple--either physical or with an image (that's what Teledisk was all about). We added about 6 definitions in the last two months, so it's still a work in progress after 25 years. If you'd like an update, just drop us a note and we'll email one back to you. -Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:49:37 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:49:37 +0000 Subject: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23 January 2013 00:14, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Yes, lots of games and stuff were done in ARexx, sound and images, etc. > > and btw quoting vrx/sexton as a source automatically disqualifies you We normally don't top-quote on this list. I don't even know who or what vrx/sexton is; I merely gave the top hit or 2 from Google. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 23 17:58:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:58:42 -0700 Subject: More house cleaning. Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <1358921817.79036.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1358921817.79036.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1358921817.79036.YahooMailRC at web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Jerry Wright writes: > 1) SGI Onyx desk side Reality Engine 2 > > Has drives and loaded OS, Good condition > Missing front cover (skin), Has PS2 keyboard adapter > > 200.00 local pick up only That's a decent price for this machine. Someone in WA please grab it. These machines are scarce these days. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Jan 23 20:45:59 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:45:59 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> On 1/23/13 1:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/23/2013 11:24 AM, Dave Land wrote: >> >> On 1/23/13 11:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: >>>> I actually have the .HEX files for the machine, but I tried to get them >>>> transferred with 22disk, and it doesn't seem to like 8" drives too much >>>> (ver. 1.42 or 1.44). >>> What kind of problems? >>> If 22disk has difficulties with your 8" drives, then whatever THAT >>> problem is may need to be dealt with for any other software attempts. >> >> The version I had didn't have the necessary info in the diskdefs file for >> the 8" drive on the 820-II, but like I mentioned earlier, I got a diskdefs >> file that has that, and a lot more, from the Dave Maslin archive. Going to >> try tonight if I have time to work with it. I've gotten successful copies >> already via Dave Dunfield's Image Disk program so I know it works somewhat. > > That's odd--I don't remember ever adding an 8" 820-II format to > 22Disk--lots of 820-II 5.25" formats, though. As far as I can tell, the > only 8" Xerox format is for the 16/8 system. And Don got his 22Disk > from me--and he was a registered user. We still sell 22Disk, though > not in great numbers (sold 4 licenses in December). > > So now we know where the rumors about 22Disk not working with 8" drives > comes from... > > Will your 820-II read type A1 disks? If your PC can write > single-density (FM) you might start with that. > > But then, what do I know? > > --Chuck I'm slowly but surely picking up bits and pieces of information here and, yes, Dave Maslin's copy has a boatload of formats compared to the stock one I downloaded the other day, although he may not have registered them with you. But alas, his version wouldn't write to or read from my drive either. My PC does write FM but not MFM according to Dunfield's Image Disk, but that may just be due to me not having something set right (i.e. interleave or something else.) My floppy controller chip WAS in his list of 'tested controllers'... All I get when it tries to read or write, is 'sector not found' and when I tried to format a disc, it got to about track 50 and started gen- erating errors all over the place. With Image Disk, I can format a disc, write a disk image to it, and the system will actually read it when I hook everything back up. Maybe I need to find a PC with a little bit older FDD controller and try again?My 820-II was one of the models that had the 8" DSDD floppy and a 10 mb. hard disk in the same enclosure. It's got the extra slot in the monitor/ cpu for what I would assume is for a 16/8 card, but nothing there. Just the stock 64K of RAM. Here's what I've been using for settings for formatting and writing disk images. Tracks 77 Sides 2 Interleave 1:1 Sectors per track 26 Bytes per sector 256 FM @ 500kbps If I could get 22disk to actually play nice with this thing, I'd definitely buy a license for it. :)) Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 21:12:34 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:12:34 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> On 01/23/2013 06:45 PM, Dave Land wrote: > Here's what I've been using for settings for formatting and writing > disk images. > > Tracks 77 > Sides 2 > Interleave 1:1 > Sectors per track 26 > Bytes per sector 256 > FM @ 500kbps > > If I could get 22disk to actually play nice with this thing, I'd definitely > buy a license for it. :)) Well, I think you're making some basic errors. Every PC/Compatible in the world can write MFM; the FM-capable ones are in the minority (all standard DOS disks are MFM). Second, you can't write 26 256-byte FM-encoded sectors on an 8" track. 26 128-byte, yes, but 26x256 is definitely in the MFM arena. Try formatting up a SSSD 8" floppy using definition A1--DRI's standard CP/M distro format for years. See if your 820-II like it. --Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 21:42:12 2013 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:42:12 -0800 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? Message-ID: hey all like the q says I want to be able to go from my usb mem stick male end and put it into a extermal speaker/mp3 player i have.. The type of memory card the speaker takes is a sd mem card looks like they used to make such a beast http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=603# but not anymore doed anybody else know of any other adapters around that do the same thing Chris From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Jan 23 21:50:32 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 20:50:32 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> On 1/23/13 8:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/23/2013 06:45 PM, Dave Land wrote: > >> Here's what I've been using for settings for formatting and writing >> disk images. >> >> Tracks 77 >> Sides 2 >> Interleave 1:1 >> Sectors per track 26 >> Bytes per sector 256 >> FM @ 500kbps >> >> If I could get 22disk to actually play nice with this thing, I'd definitely >> buy a license for it. :)) > > Well, I think you're making some basic errors. Every PC/Compatible in > the world can write MFM; the FM-capable ones are in the minority (all > standard DOS disks are MFM). > > Second, you can't write 26 256-byte FM-encoded sectors on an 8" track. > 26 128-byte, yes, but 26x256 is definitely in the MFM arena. > > Try formatting up a SSSD 8" floppy using definition A1--DRI's standard > CP/M distro format for years. See if your 820-II like it. > > --Chuck Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. Back to the drawing board I guess. I'm getting a little tired of messing with this thing anyway. I'm stretched to the limit financially right now, so this is just a side project to keep my mind busy. I don't know enough about programming in CP/M to get it to do what I want, so I'm pretty much just using what's already compiled via image disks or building a few simple .com files with MLOAD. The stupid host terminal turns any- thing other than simple ascii to shit when you try to save them to disk after uploading, even at 300 baud. Guess I'll just take a break from it for a couple weeks, and then maybe try something different. Thanks for your input folks. Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 21:58:41 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 01:58:41 -0200 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? References: Message-ID: <1F2AA74A334A4AD9ABBD071E277F16B5@tababook> Hmmm, maybe on the wrong list? :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Halarewich" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:42 AM Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? > hey all like the q says I want to be able to go from my usb mem stick > male end and put it into a extermal speaker/mp3 player i have.. The > type of memory card the speaker takes is a sd mem card looks like they > used to make such a beast > http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=603# but not > anymore doed anybody else know of any other adapters around that do > the same thing > > Chris From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Jan 23 22:18:35 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:18:35 -0700 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5100B61B.7060400@landcomp.net> On 1/23/13 8:42 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hey all like the q says I want to be able to go from my usb mem stick > male end and put it into a extermal speaker/mp3 player i have.. The > type of memory card the speaker takes is a sd mem card looks like they > used to make such a beast > http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=603# but not > anymore doed anybody else know of any other adapters around that do > the same thing > > Chris All I can say is good luck my friend. The only other place in existence that carried these things has also discontinued them. :P http://www.saelig.com/product/MIO001.htm Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 22:18:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 20:18:43 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> On 01/23/2013 07:50 PM, Dave Land wrote: > Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. > Back to the drawing board I guess. Most 8" disks (assuming that the aperture in the jacket is in a position that matches the index sensor on your drive) will work just fine in either density or side-edness. There is no difference in the media coating. The one thing that you do have to watch out for is getting a batch of hard-sectored (33 holes punched round the cookie) when what you want is soft-sectored (1 hole). --Chuck P.S. Doesn't the 820-II also work with 5.25" 48 tpi (360K) drives? From wilson at dbit.com Wed Jan 23 22:24:24 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 23:24:24 -0500 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130124042424.GA17914@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 08:50:32PM -0700, Dave Land wrote: >>Try formatting up a SSSD 8" floppy using definition A1--DRI's standard >>CP/M distro format for years. See if your 820-II like it. > >Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. Why not format them as SD? (Maybe I missed something.) The max transition rate is the same -- media shouldn't know the diff. John Wilson D Bit From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Jan 23 22:45:57 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:45:57 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5100BC85.3040009@landcomp.net> On 1/23/13 9:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/23/2013 07:50 PM, Dave Land wrote: > >> Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. >> Back to the drawing board I guess. > > Most 8" disks (assuming that the aperture in the jacket is in a position > that matches the index sensor on your drive) will work just fine in > either density or side-edness. There is no difference in the media coating. > > The one thing that you do have to watch out for is getting a batch of > hard-sectored (33 holes punched round the cookie) when what you want is > soft-sectored (1 hole). > > --Chuck > > P.S. Doesn't the 820-II also work with 5.25" 48 tpi (360K) drives? Well now, that's an interesting twist. They're definitely soft-sectored. I was under the assumption that the physical media was different between the types of disks. So the DSDD are the same stuff, just a little higher quality oxide to support more and closer tracks? I'll have to try to re-format one (tomorrow maybe), and see what happens. ...and yes, some did ship with dual 5.25" drives also. Thanks for the info Chuck. :-) Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > From g-wright at att.net Wed Jan 23 23:33:59 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:33:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: More house cleaning. Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <1358943662.493.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358943662.493.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1359005639.71151.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Tofu To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, January 23, 2013 4:21:33 AM Subject: Re: More house cleaning. Kent Wa. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 10:16 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: > 1) SGI Onyx desk side Reality Engine 2 > > Has drives and loaded OS, Good condition > Missing front cover (skin), Has PS2 keyboard adapter > > 200.00 local pick up only > > (4) GRID 5 1/4 GPIB external floppies. Internal > power supply. came from the military. 12x13x2 in. > look new. can ship. 20.00 + shipping > > 1) Wang PC-002 old large style. has floppy, HD > and keyboard. No Monitor. Uses a Wang monitor only > Free, local pickup only > > NCR PC all-in one type no keyboard, 2 floppy system > Free, local pickup only. Heavy > > >- Jerry > >Jerry Wright >253-569-6041 >g-wright at att.net is the NCR color or mono, pc4 or decision mate? the NCR is a decision and is mono with 2 floppies. - Jerry From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 00:00:11 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:00:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Density (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100BC85.3040009@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5100BC85.3040009@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130123213011.Q65052@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: > Well now, that's an interesting twist. They're definitely soft-sectored. > I was under the assumption that the physical media was different between > the types of disks. So the DSDD are the same stuff, just a little higher > quality oxide to support more and closer tracks? close. 8" SD V DD are NOT more NOR closer tracks. They are both 77 tracks at 48 tracks per inch. The difference is how much data is crammed onto each track. The oxide is nominally the same, but you are right that DD relies on high quality. SSSD holds a total of about 250K SSDD holds a total of about .6M, or about 1.2M for DSDD. DSSD existed, but was not very commonly used. However, on 5.25", there are both 48tpi and 96 tpi, (more and closer tracks), AND on both 5.25" and 3.5" there are two different oxide formulations available for each for different "densities" of recording on each track. 5.25 is available with 300 Oersted 5.25" for FM (typically about 100K) or MFM (typically 160K or 180K per side ("360K")) and 600 Oersted for MFM "high density" ("1.2M") (same recording format as "DD MFM", but twice the data transfer rate) 3.5" is available in 600 oersted ("720K") and 700- 750 oersted ("1.4M") Same number of tracks (80), track spacing (135 tpi), but two different densities on the tracks. (same recording format, but twice the data transfer rate) Besides the common forms, there also exist numerous variants, such as 100 tpi 5.25", 67.5 tpi 3.5", GCR, etc. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 24 00:50:56 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:50:56 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124042424.GA17914@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <20130124042424.GA17914@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5100D9D0.9030405@sydex.com> On 01/23/2013 08:24 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 08:50:32PM -0700, Dave Land wrote: >>> Try formatting up a SSSD 8" floppy using definition A1--DRI's standard >>> CP/M distro format for years. See if your 820-II like it. >> >> Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. > > Why not format them as SD? (Maybe I missed something.) > The max transition rate is the same -- media shouldn't know the diff. With a double-sided drive, that's true. If you had a single-sided drive and tried to use double-sided media in it, you might be disappointed (the index hole is in a different position--DS drives usually have two index sensors). It's another of those oddball things--you can write 8" single-sided media in a double sided drive, but not double-sided media in a single-sided drive. Some DS 8" drives have an active signal that reports back to the host that double-sided media is present. If you've gotten stuck with a pile of hard-sectored media when you were looking for some soft-sector blanks, many 8" drives can be jumpered to separate the SECTOR pulses onto a different pin from the INDEX pulse. So you can use them with a drive jumpered in such a fashion as soft sector floppies. --Chuck From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 15:13:38 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:13:38 +0100 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Dave Land wrote: > ...too many Dave's... :-) Yes, but it's _Don_ Maslin, not Dave... HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 02:05:02 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:05:02 +0000 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 January 2013 03:42, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hey all like the q says I want to be able to go from my usb mem stick > male end and put it into a extermal speaker/mp3 player i have.. The > type of memory card the speaker takes is a sd mem card looks like they > used to make such a beast > http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=603# but not > anymore doed anybody else know of any other adapters around that do > the same thing Can you not just buy one of the memory sticks that uses an internal SD (or microSD) card for storage? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Jan 24 02:15:02 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 01:15:02 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5100ED86.2020800@landcomp.net> On 1/23/13 2:13 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Dave Land wrote: >> ...too many Dave's... :-) > > Yes, but it's _Don_ Maslin, not Dave... > > HTH Absolutely correct you are! My mistake... been a long day. :) > > > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Jan 24 02:30:50 2013 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:30:50 -0800 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have one setting here. It came with a 2 GB sd card and retailed at $15 USD. I feel a little dumber for following this thread and not seeing the obvious. jimd. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? On 24 January 2013 03:42, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hey all like the q says I want to be able to go from my usb mem stick > male end and put it into a extermal speaker/mp3 player i have.. The > type of memory card the speaker takes is a sd mem card looks like they > used to make such a beast > http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=603# but not > anymore doed anybody else know of any other adapters around that do > the same thing Can you not just buy one of the memory sticks that uses an internal SD (or microSD) card for storage? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 24 02:52:56 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 01:52:56 -0700 Subject: Manx: RSS feed fixed after server move Message-ID: The move of the classiccmp.org servers to the new datacenter caused a temporary outage in the RSS feed of new documents on Manx. That error has been corrected and the RSS feed is working properly again. New Documents on Manx -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Jan 24 02:58:28 2013 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:58:28 -0800 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will feel even dumber if I'm not seeing something that prevents this solution. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jim davis Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? I have one setting here. It came with a 2 GB sd card and retailed at $15 USD. I feel a little dumber for following this thread and not seeing the obvious. jimd. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? On 24 January 2013 03:42, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hey all like the q says I want to be able to go from my usb mem stick > male end and put it into a extermal speaker/mp3 player i have.. The > type of memory card the speaker takes is a sd mem card looks like they > used to make such a beast > http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=603# but not > anymore doed anybody else know of any other adapters around that do > the same thing Can you not just buy one of the memory sticks that uses an internal SD (or microSD) card for storage? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From roe at liveblockauctions.com Thu Jan 24 09:07:43 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:07:43 -0600 Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. Message-ID: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> I'm restoring a pdp11/34a, and I've got a weird problem I'm hoping someone out there can help me with. The system seems to be working just fine, with one exception: bus reset just doesn't work. The unibus is configured correctly; I've verified that NPR is jumpered/granted correctly through the bus. This is a BA11-L box with the DD11-PK 9-slot backplane, configured like this: Slot 1 - CPU Slot 2 - CPU Slot 3 - A/B M9312 bootstrap/terminator, C/D/E/F M7859 front panel programmers interface controller Slot 4 - 128 Kword MOS memory Slot 5 - RL11 controller Slot 6 - C/D/E/F M7856 DL11-W console RS232 interface Slot 7 - C/D G7273 dual bus grant Slot 8 - C/D G7273 dual bus grant Slot 9 - A/B M9302 terminator, C/D/E/F M7856 DL11-W configured at 776500 for TU58 tape drive The symptoms: At poweron, the system starts the M9312 console emulator software; I can use it to deposit a small program into memory with no problem. Attempting to use the "S" command to actually start the program causes the RUN light to come on; the program never executes, hitting CTRL/HALT on the front panel causes BUS ERR, the RUN light stays on, and the only way to regain control of the system is power off. For example: @ L 1000 @ D 000777 @ L 1000 @ S fails as described above. If I use the front panel to install a program and run it, when I push CTRL/START, the system halts at the start address. For example: CTRL/HALT CLR 1000 LAD CLR 777 DEP CLR 1000 LAD CTRL/START the system halts, run light out, at address 1000. If I then press CTRL/CONT, the RUN and SR DISP lights come on, and everything works perfectly. I can CTRL/HALT the system, continue, etc. With no problem. Furthermore, if the program I enter contains a RESET instruction (000005), the behavior of the system as it executes that instruction is pretty much exactly like using the "S" command from the console emulator - RUN stays on, CTRL/HALT causes BUS ERR, and the system is non-responsive until I power the beast off. For example: CTRL/HALT CLR 1000 LAD CLR 240 DEP DEP DEP CLR 5 DEP CLR 1000 LAD CTRL/START (the system halts at address 1000) CTRL/HALT (single steps to location 1002 correctly) CTRL/HALT (single steps to location 1004 correctly) CTRL/HALT (single steps to location 1006 correctly) CTRL/HALT (RUN light comes on, CTRL/HALT causes BUS ERR with RUN, system is no longer responsive, have to poweroff) My reading of the unibus tech manuals indicates that there is no ACK of any kind for BUS INIT, so I am somewhat confused. There _is_ a bit of noise on the +5V power supply; a voltmeter shows 5.02 volts stable, but there is a .5V spike at 50 kHz showing on the scope; I can't see this causing problems _only_ with BUS RESET. I have also verified that CTRL/INIT from the front panel seems to do nothing at all. For example, if I halt the system and press a key on the console emulator, examining 777560 shows 000200 (which is correct, there is a character available at 777562). Pressing CTRL/INIT on the front panel does _not_ clear 777560 - it still shows 000200. All the 11/34a M9312 diagnostics run fine. This problem seems to be limited to attempts at RESET. A disassembly of the M9312 console emulator code shows that two things happen when you use the "S" command: 000005 (RESET) followed by a JMP (R5) It's the RESET that drives the machine nuts. Anyone have an idea? -- Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802 *Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100* From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 24 10:34:38 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:34:38 -0500 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 01/23/2013 07:50 PM, Dave Land wrote: > >> Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. >> Back to the drawing board I guess. > > Most 8" disks (assuming that the aperture in the jacket is in a > position that matches the index sensor on your drive) will work just > fine in either density or side-edness. There is no difference in the > media coating. First, I confirm that every 8" media I every encountered was able to be both SD and DD as well as SS and DS as far as the media coating was concerned (except for media purchased from one company which had a high failure rate when used a DS), The index hole is another matter. My experience with the DEC RX02 floppy drive and the DSD 880/30 drive may be helpful. The DSD 880/30 drive emulates 3 * RL02 (NON-removable for this hardware) and a single RX03 floppy drive which can accept any 8" standard floppy media which the DEC RX02 accepts. About a dozen companies sold these media, with both unformatted and formatted being available. The DEC RX02 drive is NOT able to perform a Low Level Format from scratch, but if the 8" floppy media has already been LLF and is relatively undamaged, then the DEC RX02 is able to toggle between SSSD and SSDD usage. On the other hand, the DSD 880/30 is able to do an LLF from scratch either as SS or DS, depending on the index hole. At one point I specifically purchased DSDD media to be used with this drive, but was not able to find them consistently when additional media were needed. The DSD 880/30 has two detection circuits which allow it to use two different index holes. When SS media are used, the index hole is expected to be about 3 mm above the centre hub hole and about 1 mm offset to the right. (The bottom of the floppy media is the edge which enters the floppy drive first and the top surface is the surface the suppliers label.) When DS media are used, the index hole is expected to be about 3 mm above the centre hub hole, but this time offset to the right about 10 mm. My first solution was to punch an extra pair of holes in the jackets and cover up the SS index hole when I wanted to use SS media as DS media. Later, I managed to add a DPDT switch into the detection circuits and "encourage" the DSD 880/30 drive to believe that a SS index hole was actually the DS index hole by reversing the circuits using the switch. In the other position, the switch changed the circuits back to the original function and the SS media reverted back to being SS again with the DS media also being detected correctly. Why every 8" floppy media were coated identically on both sides I don't know, but that was the standard with every SS 8" floppy soft sectored media I have ever seen. EXCEPT that when I encountered a few 8" floppy media with a DEC label, the failure rate as SS media was normal. HOWEVER, when the DSD 880/30 drive attempted to do an LLF, about 10% (if I remember correctly - this was 25 years ago after all) failed the DS attempt at an LLF. How DEC managed to obtain media which were degraded on the second side so frequently when none of the other 8" floppy media I encountered had that problem (i.e. the other media were able to either LLF both sides or none and VERY few failed the DS LLF) I can't explain, but that was my experience. Jerome Fine From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:54:26 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:54:26 +0100 Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. In-Reply-To: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> References: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: From: "Roe Peterson" Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:07 PM To: Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. > > I'm restoring a pdp11/34a, and I've got a weird problem I'm hoping > someone out there can help me with. > > The system seems to be working just fine, with one exception: bus reset > just doesn't work. > > The unibus is configured correctly; I've verified that NPR is > jumpered/granted correctly through the bus. This is a BA11-L box with > the DD11-PK 9-slot backplane, configured like this: > > Slot 1 - CPU > Slot 2 - CPU > Slot 3 - A/B M9312 bootstrap/terminator, C/D/E/F M7859 front panel > programmers interface controller > Slot 4 - 128 Kword MOS memory > Slot 5 - RL11 controller > Slot 6 - C/D/E/F M7856 DL11-W console RS232 interface > Slot 7 - C/D G7273 dual bus grant > Slot 8 - C/D G7273 dual bus grant > Slot 9 - A/B M9302 terminator, C/D/E/F M7856 DL11-W configured at 776500 > for TU58 tape drive > [... snip ...] I have not been actively busy with my 11/34C for quite some time, but the first thing I noticed is the use of slot 3. I am not sure, but is the 3rd slot not dedicated for FIS or CACHE? If you move all boards (slot 4 to slot 6) up one slot, I'd put the G7273 from slot 7 into slot 3. - Henk, PA8PDP > -- > > Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development > O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802 > *Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100* > > > From marvin at west.net Thu Jan 24 11:14:40 2013 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:14:40 -0800 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that old Amiga programming language...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> It is normally better to top post when only one idea is going to put forth. Of course, with all us old guys with short memories ... And of course, it is easier to complain/comment about top posting than the constant posts unrelated to the subject line :). > On 23 January 2013 00:14, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >Yes, lots of games and stuff were done in ARexx, sound and images, etc. >> > >> >and btw quoting vrx/sexton as a source automatically disqualifies you > > We normally don't top-quote on this list. > > I don't even know who or what vrx/sexton is; I merely gave the top hit > or 2 from Google. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile:http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 11:38:26 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:38:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple M0110 keyboard with cable Message-ID: <1359049106.83614.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> All of them use the same kb I thunk. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 7:47 AM PST David Riley wrote: >On Jan 22, 2013, at 7:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 12:07 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> >> Anybody on this list have an Apple M0110 keyboard with cable, or just the >> cable, that is close to Croatia? I have a fellow there that really wants >> one, but the shipping is too high from the US. >> >> What kind of k/b is that. If I have one *maybe* Ill send it to him. My mum is Hrvatska. You have to ask him where he at for me though (town). > >It's the original Mac (128K and 512K, not Plus) keyboard. Phone jack >connection, no arrow keys. > > >- Dave > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 11:46:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:46:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > How DEC managed to obtain media which were degraded on the > second side so frequently when none of the other 8" floppy media > I encountered had that problem (i.e. the other media were able to > either LLF both sides or none and VERY few failed the DS LLF) > I can't explain, but that was my experience. Perhaps that was the origin of the silly rumor (although not necessarily false) that MOST media being manufactured had enormous failure rate (higher than 50%?) and that therefore ALL media was tested - those that passed on both sides were sold as DS, those that only failed one side were flipped over to present the "good" side and then sold as SS. And that those that failed BOTH sides were wholesaled to Elephant/BASF/Memorex. Some versions of the stories go so far as to say that finished diskettes were OPENED to flip the media. (based on an assumption that media could not be tested until it was installed in a jacket with sleeve and label) Q: If you had that high a failure rate, what would YOU do about it? Cherry pick out of what should have been trash, marginal media that would test, or test PART, as "good" to market? Q: What impact would the labor cost to do such have on total production cost? Or would you shut it down until you could get adequate quality that no significant portion tested "bad"? Was Verbatim Datalife the result of such a shutdown? NOTE: in the civilized world (as opposed to our industry), manufacturing does SAMPLING of output, and statistically determines whether to take the risk of any bad product, based on the percentage of failures. If one were to actually search through product searching for ANY that could be marketed, then it could be assumed that one would be inundated by product failures. which happened. Similar stories/practices: "RS "32K" RAM were 64K where only one half tested bad" (YES, they were 64K, but who had sufficient quantity to MARKET half-defects?) "486SX were 486DX where FPU tested "bad"" "Windoze was written by one billion monkeys, but they picked the wrong billion" "SS drives (which have cicuitry for second head) have defective second head circuitry" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 11:52:48 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:52:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> Message-ID: <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Marvin Johnston wrote: > It is normally better to top post when only one idea is going to put forth. Or if one is too lazy, or enough of an asshole, to not adequately delete the extraneous content. Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of failure to trim. Probably inevitable. And too many people would rather waste EVERYBODY else's time than spend their time cleaning up the quoted content. > Of course, with all us old guys with short memories ... wha? I dont remember what that is about. > And of course, it is easier to complain/comment about top posting than > the constant posts unrelated to the subject line :). I don't understand the interconnection between the multiple intolerable behaviors. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 12:13:56 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:13:56 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>,<510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>,<5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>,<5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I remember manufacturers selling SS and DS 5.25" disks for commodorethat were actually all DS, just a disk notcher away from double the storage. as for the 486SX (or was it 386SX) debacle, there was software thatcould completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs made by AMDthat could be "converted" into a 486DX by a simple piece of software.there were a bunch of tricks with software around those days likethe AMD 486DX-80 and so forth this practice is continued to present with cpu cores being disabled,even though there may be nothing wrong with them. for commodore 64 again there was a utility called "soft sector format"which would format disks that had bad sectors, marking the bad sectorsso you could use whatever good portions remained, for those of us whowere too cheap to buy new/good disks. > Similar stories/practices: > "RS "32K" RAM were 64K where only one half tested bad" (YES, they > were 64K, but who had sufficient quantity to MARKET half-defects?) > "486SX were 486DX where FPU tested "bad"" > "Windoze was written by one billion monkeys, but they picked the wrong > billion" > "SS drives (which have cicuitry for second head) have defective second > head circuitry" > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wilson at dbit.com Thu Jan 24 12:17:25 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:17:25 -0500 Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. In-Reply-To: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> References: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <20130124181725.GA25173@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:07:43AM -0600, Roe Peterson wrote: >At poweron, the system starts the M9312 console emulator software; I >can use it to deposit a small program into memory with no problem. >Attempting to use the "S" command to actually start the program >causes the RUN light to come on; the program never executes, hitting >CTRL/HALT on the front panel causes BUS ERR, the RUN light stays on, >and the only way to regain control of the system is power off. For >example: > >@ L 1000 >@ D 000777 >@ L 1000 >@ S If I knew how to debug the 11/34a front panel, then *I* wouldn't have similar problems with CNTRL/INIT etc. causing unwanted results. **But**, if you're talking to the M9312 serial console, then you already *are* executing PDP-11 code, so the "run" light should already be on. So maybe whatever's driving the LED is confused but the CPU itself is executing code more or less OK? John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 12:25:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:25:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130124102141.T75353@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, jim davis wrote: > I have one setting here. It came with a 2 GB sd card and retailed at $15 > USD. > I feel a little dumber for following this thread and not seeing the obvious. What does "TO" mean????? OP seemed to be asking how to plug a USB thumb drive containing data into an SD slot on a computer. If that's a correct interpretation, then why would THAT come with an SD card?? Or is he trying to plug an SD card containing data into a USB port of a computer? (about 69 cents on eBay for Chinese crap) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 24 12:34:37 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:34:37 -0800 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <51017EBD.9080000@sydex.com> On 01/24/2013 08:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Why every 8" floppy media were coated identically on both sides > I don't know, but that was the standard with every SS 8" floppy > soft sectored media I have ever seen. EXCEPT that when I > encountered a few 8" floppy media with a DEC label, the failure > rate as SS media was normal. HOWEVER, when the DSD 880/30 > drive attempted to do an LLF, about 10% (if I remember correctly - > this was 25 years ago after all) failed the DS attempt at an LLF. > How DEC managed to obtain media which were degraded on the > second side so frequently when none of the other 8" floppy media > I encountered had that problem (i.e. the other media were able to > either LLF both sides or none and VERY few failed the DS LLF) > I can't explain, but that was my experience. Well, they were--"flippy" disks didn't originate with the Apple crowd, regardless of what some think. In fact, you could purchase commercial media with the double index hole and a label on each side. That could make things really confusing if you encountered a system like some of the Altox boxes, where the Shugart drives were run "upside down". But the SS media coating was done in the interest of yield. The manufacturers could take the DS media that failed verification and stuff it "good side down" in a SS jacket, rather than toss it into the trash. When floppies ran $7.50-pre 1980s dollars the each, that was real money. One of the more bewildering aspects of 8" branding was the labeling based on pre-formatted media. So, for example, I've got a couple of new boxes of RX02 pre-formatted next to a couple of boxes of Imation disks labeled DS,DD 1024/F (I suspect that they were used for some NEC APC-type systems, but I don't know for certain). The odd thing about the Imations are that they come with transparent red write-enable tabs, which, I can tell you are absolutely no good on my Qume DT/8s. Apparently they never caused a problem with whatever system were their intended target. Sometimes, it's hard to determine if an unopened box is hard- or soft-sectored because media was second-sourced by machine manufacturers with only the applicable system name on the box. Finally, *never* buy floppies with the "Wabash" brand--the binder has most likely failed by now, leaving you with useless media and a cleanup job on your drives. At one point, Tandy was apparently a bit careless with their Fort Worth warehouse conditions that was used to stock their SSSD 8" media. I've got a box of said disks that shed worse than my golden retriever... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 12:42:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:42:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>, <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>,<5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>,<5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I remember manufacturers selling SS and DS 5.25" disks for commodorethat > were actually all DS, just a disk notcher away from double the storage. Yeah? So, has anybody here EVER seen a 5.25" disk that was NOT coated on both sides? > as for the 486SX (or was it 386SX) NO, it was NOT. 386DX was 32 bit; 386SX was 16 bit 486DX had an FPU; 4986SX did not have FPU > debacle, there was software thatcould > completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, NOPE. > which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it > was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs > made by AMD We are talking INTEL. > that could be "converted" into a 486DX by a simple piece of > software.there were a bunch of tricks with software around those days > likethe AMD 486DX-80 and so forth this practice is continued to present > with cpu cores being disabled,even though there may be nothing wrong > with them. "Nothing wrong with them" The MANUFACTURER says something is DEFECTIVE. A user runs a TRIVIAL test, and declares that the manufacturer is WRONG. Same thing wherein SPINRITE would "test" sectors DECLARED BAD by the drive manufacturer, and SPINRITE would over-ride the manufacturer's analog tests! After all, "3 successful read writes is a more reliable test than 100 read/writes and measuring the signal amplitude!" Users used to replace the crystal in 5170s for greater speed. THEN, they would bad-mouth reliability of 5170. DUH. THAT is why IBM added boot code to refuse to boot with a changed clock speed. > for commodore 64 again there was a utility called "soft sector > format"which would format disks that had bad sectors, marking the bad > sectorsso you could use whatever good portions remained, for those of us > whowere too cheap to buy new/good disks. It was sometimes possible, in the case of physical defects, to move the sectors around to try to get the sectors to not overlap the defects. Every competent FORMAT program, even MS-DOS "FORMAT" will mark sectors, blocks, or tracks bad and use the rest of the disk, unless blocked areas were in unmovable locations (such as the Boot sector and DIRectory area). Dan, you should be familiar with the software to re-arrange and move sectors to place the defect in the right place for Vault Pro-lock copy protection. (paperclip scratch, and code looks for it). NOTE: we are not talking about Pro-Lock-PLUS, which NEVER reached market, although, to this day, gets blamed for misunderstood problems. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 12:55:37 2013 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:55:37 -0800 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: <20130124102141.T75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130124102141.T75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 1/24/13, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, jim davis wrote: OP seemed to be asking how to plug a USB thumb drive containing data into an SD slot on a computer. bingo we have a winner :) On 1/24/13, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, jim davis wrote: >> I have one setting here. It came with a 2 GB sd card and retailed at $15 >> USD. >> I feel a little dumber for following this thread and not seeing the >> obvious. > > What does "TO" mean????? > > OP seemed to be asking how to plug a USB thumb drive containing > data into an SD slot on a computer. > If that's a correct interpretation, then why would THAT come with > an SD card?? > > > Or is he trying to plug an SD card containing data into a USB > port of a computer? (about 69 cents on eBay for Chinese crap) > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 13:13:37 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:13:37 +0100 Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. In-Reply-To: <20130124181725.GA25173@dbit.dbit.com> References: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> <20130124181725.GA25173@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: From: "John Wilson" Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 7:17 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:07:43AM -0600, Roe Peterson wrote: >>At poweron, the system starts the M9312 console emulator software; I >>can use it to deposit a small program into memory with no problem. >>Attempting to use the "S" command to actually start the program >>causes the RUN light to come on; the program never executes, hitting >>CTRL/HALT on the front panel causes BUS ERR, the RUN light stays on, >>and the only way to regain control of the system is power off. For >>example: >> >>@ L 1000 >>@ D 000777 >>@ L 1000 >>@ S > > If I knew how to debug the 11/34a front panel, then *I* wouldn't have > similar problems with CNTRL/INIT etc. causing unwanted results. **But**, > if you're talking to the M9312 serial console, then you already *are* > executing PDP-11 code, so the "run" light should already be on. So maybe > whatever's driving the LED is confused but the CPU itself is executing > code more or less OK? > > John Wilson > D Bit > As I said, the way how I remember it might be a bit hazy ... and at this moment I can not start up my 11/34C (I could have just 4 weeks ago ...). When you press CNTRL/INIT, you (the monitor) gets control and the RUN LED should be off. If it stays on, it's typical a bus grant issue. The numbers, LAD, CLR etc. all operate while the RUN LED is off. When you press start after 165020 LAD (IIRC) you start the monitor which itself will start with executing some hardware tests. There is another address that will start without the HW tests. This monitor is in the ROM in the middle of the M9312 module board. greetz, - Henk. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 13:28:54 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:28:54 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that Message-ID: <1943844619-1359055732-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1336122503-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> A different issue is someone like me who replies via phone sometimes. This dingleberry phone doesn't allow me to edit original text, just delete it or include it. Sucks and I often wait to be at a real computer before replying. Still top posting intent is to not have to scroll through or past original contents. Perhaps its lazy or managerial thinking. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 24 13:56:40 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:56:40 -0700 Subject: Fwd: The Never-Before-Told Story of the World's First Computer Art Message-ID: (Don't blame me for the title re: "first") -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 14:03:49 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:03:49 -0500 Subject: Apple M0110 keyboard with cable In-Reply-To: <1359049106.83614.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1359049106.83614.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50BCCB0B-96B4-48A0-BF72-9C19DC70D6B0@gmail.com> On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 12:07 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> >>> Anybody on this list have an Apple M0110 keyboard with cable, or just the >>> cable, that is close to Croatia? I have a fellow there that really wants >>> one, but the shipping is too high from the US. >>> >>> What kind of k/b is that. If I have one *maybe* Ill send it to him. My mum is Hrvatska. You have to ask him where he at for me though (town). >> >> It's the original Mac (128K and 512K, not Plus) keyboard. Phone jack >> connection, no arrow keys. > > All of them use the same kb I thunk. Not the Plus. It added a numeric keypad and arrow keys. Same general style, though, and I believe you could use a Plus keyboard on a 128K/ 512K, though I could be wrong (I don't see why not, but I don't recall if any of the normal keys were mapped differently). - Dave From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 14:10:55 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:10:55 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 24 January 2013 12:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > Or if one is too lazy, or enough of an asshole, to not adequately > delete the extraneous content. > Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of failure to trim. > Probably inevitable. > And too many people would rather waste EVERYBODY else's time than spend > their time cleaning up the quoted content. > Don't forget those of us with vision disabilities. Top posting removes the two issues of: 1. Screen reader going insane and spewing "GREATER THAN" a million times when someone keeps on quoting up a chain of quotes until the text consists of a million greater than symbols and a single word. 2. "Time to find the new stuff in the field of old stuff. ... And a single word takes up my screen. ... TIME FOR FUN!" Of course with proper trimming inline posting is still perfectly usable. Cheers, Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 14:36:27 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:36:27 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>, <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>, <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>, <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> debacle, there was software thatcould >> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, > NOPE. >> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs >> made by AMD > > We are talking INTEL. He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. That could have been based on faulty rumor, but it's certainly in line with modern manufacturing practice of GPUs and multicore CPUs, where the lower core-count devices are the same dice with faulty units disabled (or, if the market for the cheaper chips is strong enough, potentially non-faulty units, but that's less frequent than the overclocking crowd seems to think). - Dave From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 14:45:06 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>,,<510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>,,<5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>,,<5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, , <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, , <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net>, , <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net>, <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nope,I remember running this software, it was from the above-board peopleI think it was called above486 and it would re-enable the math coprocessor. in previous versions of the above board (386) you needed the hardware version. this is history, it wasnt a blown fuse or anything, the cpu's were shipped with thecopro but disabled, and they found a way to enable it. I do remember something about how it only worked for certain cpusso thats why I thought it might have only applied to AMD and not intel. > > >> debacle, there was software thatcould > >> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, > > NOPE. > >> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it > >> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs > >> made by AMD > > > > We are talking INTEL. > > He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have > had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that > the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with > a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. That could have been based on > faulty rumor, but it's certainly in line with modern manufacturing > practice of GPUs and multicore CPUs, where the lower core-count > devices are the same dice with faulty units disabled (or, if the > market for the cheaper chips is strong enough, potentially non-faulty > units, but that's less frequent than the overclocking crowd seems to > think). > > > - Dave > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 14:49:51 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:36 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> debacle, there was software thatcould >>> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, >> NOPE. >>> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >>> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs >>> made by AMD >> >> We are talking INTEL. > > He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have > had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that > the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with > a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. I can't promise what I heard then was true, but it was commonly reported as such. It's possible that they did that at first, then after a die shrink split the lines into straight 486DX and 486SX wafers and discarded any that failed any test. At first, though, I find it believable that yields were low enough to want to sell any parts they could (since retail prices were many hundreds of dollars per CPU back then). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 14:59:40 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:59:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 24, 13 09:46:04 am Message-ID: [Possibly apocyphal stories] > "RS "32K" RAM were 64K where only one half tested bad" (YES, they > were 64K, but who had sufficient quantity to MARKET half-defects?) That one may be correct. I seem to remember that the 32K DRAMs were aviaalble in 2 versions correspodnig nto low-half (or a 64K chip) good and high-half good. You had to hold the A7 input in the correct state when loading the column address. I think some Sinclair Spectrum boards (although not, IIRC, the CoCo) had a jumper which tied the aprorpriate input of th address multiplexer high or low. You had to fit 8 32K RAM chips of the same type and set the link acordingly. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 24 15:29:06 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:29:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:36 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> debacle, there was software thatcould >>>> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, >>> NOPE. >>>> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >>>> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs >>>> made by AMD >>> >>> We are talking INTEL. >> >> He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have >> had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that >> the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with >> a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. > > Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled > holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled > to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended > to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones > with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 15:37:23 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:37:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>, , <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>,,<5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>,,<5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, , <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, , <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net>, , <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net>, <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130124133116.V79333@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Nope,I remember running this software, it was from the above-board > peopleI think it was called above486 How do you suppose that they got around Intel's Registered Trademark of "Above Board"? If we didn't know you better, then we would assume that you misremembered the name. and it would re-enable the math > coprocessor. in previous versions of the > above board (386) you needed the hardware version. What did THAT do? If you think that it converted a 386SX into a 386DX, then I'd like to talk to you about some real estate investments. > anything, the cpu's were shipped with thecopro but disabled, and they > found a way to enable it. I do remember something about how it only > worked for certain cpus so thats why I thought it might have only > applied > to AMD and not intel. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 15:38:26 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:38:26 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2013, at 4:29 PM, geneb wrote: >> Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled >> holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled >> to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended >> to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones >> with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. >> > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? "Dice" is the plural of "die" in the semiconductor industry as much as it is elsewhere. Or, at least, I've seen it repeatedly used as such in industry publication. The word "dies" is incorrect for small objects cut in a regular pattern from a larger one (as opposed to dies used for casting) as far as I know, but it's a fairly widespread error in semiconductor discussions. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 15:38:47 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:38:47 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:29 PM, geneb wrote: > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? In industry pubs I've read, I've seen them called "dice". -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Thu Jan 24 15:44:36 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:44:36 -0600 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5101AB44.90109@vaxen.net> On 1/24/13 3:29 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:36 PM, David Riley >> wrote: >>> On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> debacle, there was software thatcould >>>>> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, >>>> NOPE. >>>>> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >>>>> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX >>>>> CPUs >>>>> made by AMD >>>> >>>> We are talking INTEL. >>> >>> He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have >>> had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that >>> the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with >>> a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. >> >> Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled >> holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled >> to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended >> to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones >> with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. >> > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? I work for "the other" x86/amd64 processor design house. "Dice" is the correct term. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 15:46:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:46:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130124133845.T79333@shell.lmi.net> > [Possibly apocyphal stories] On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > That one may be correct. The most absurd, ridiculous, and improbable stories are those closest to the truth. Consider that 42 is the answer to whatdoyougetwhenyoumultiplysixbynine Why even bother with a universe that makes sense? From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 15:50:13 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:50:13 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>, , <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>, , <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>, , <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, , <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, , <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net>, , <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net>, <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BD445F4-7F9E-4FFD-BB02-518FB6493054@gmail.com> On Jan 24, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Nope,I remember running this software, it was from the above-board peopleI think it was called above486 and it would re-enable the math coprocessor. > in previous versions of the above board (386) you needed the hardware version. Bear in mind that Intel had some seriously schizophrenic taxonomy regarding "SX" vs. "DX". In the 386, the SX part was simply a 386 with a 16-bit bus, while the DX had a 32-bit bus (I'm told they stood for "Singleword eXternal" and "Doubleword eXternal", respectively, though I wouldn't be surprised if that's made up). The 386 never had a built-in FPU; any 386 machine with an FPU was a machine with a physical 387 (SX or DX, as appropriate). The 486SX was every bit as much a 32-bit bus chip as the 486DX, but the on-die FPU was disabled (whether via laser or a blown fuse, ultimately it's probably just an enable line that was left floating by hook or by crook). I agree with Ethan that they may have diverged into two separate masks towards the end of the life of the CPU, but you would need an awful lot of market demand for that to happen (enough for the cost of another mask to be eclipsed by the savings in die space). - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 24 15:51:31 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:51:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 24, 2013, at 4:29 PM, geneb wrote: > >>> Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled >>> holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled >>> to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended >>> to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones >>> with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. >>> >> Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? > > "Dice" is the plural of "die" in the semiconductor industry as much as > it is elsewhere. Or, at least, I've seen it repeatedly used as such > in industry publication. The word "dies" is incorrect for small > objects cut in a regular pattern from a larger one (as opposed to dies > used for casting) as far as I know, but it's a fairly widespread error > in semiconductor discussions. > > I'll have to remember that, thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jim at photojim.ca Thu Jan 24 15:51:52 2013 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:51:52 -0600 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5DC9C774F6724DB7B1D4D426CF46F55A@8510p> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 3:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format > > "Dice" is the plural of "die" in the semiconductor industry as much as > it is elsewhere. Or, at least, I've seen it repeatedly used as such > in industry publication. The word "dies" is incorrect for small > objects cut in a regular pattern from a larger one (as opposed to dies > used for casting) as far as I know, but it's a fairly widespread error > in semiconductor discussions. I'm not sure what the norm is in industry, but Merriam-Webster believes that the plural of "die" is always "dies", with the exception of the random number generator type of "die". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/die?show=0&t=1359064230 Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 15:59:14 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:59:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130124134852.S79333@shell.lmi.net> > > Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled > > holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled > > to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended > > to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones > > with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? perhaps, but the cubic throwable random number generator (see: CRAPS) is called a die, with a plural of dice. SOME people use "dice" for the singular as well. What did Ceasar say when he crossed the Rubicon? ("alea iacta est") Is the "die", of semiconductor fabrication, from a different word root? Is a die, as in a mold, from a different root? Its plural is usually "dies" From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 16:02:34 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:02:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> > > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > "Dice" is the plural of "die" in the semiconductor industry as much as > it is elsewhere. Or, at least, I've seen it repeatedly used as such > in industry publication. The word "dies" is incorrect for small > objects cut in a regular pattern from a larger one (as opposed to dies > used for casting) as far as I know, but it's a fairly widespread error > in semiconductor discussions. Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? (does YOUR car have disc or disk brakes?) (Is GREY a FAVOURITE COLOUR?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 16:05:23 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130124140449.U79333@shell.lmi.net> > > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In industry pubs I've read, I've seen them called "dice". Are they as authoritative as Wikipedia? :-) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 16:25:58 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 22:25:58 +0000 Subject: Might be Ot but a questiion nonetheless :) usb memory stick to sd slot adapter do they exist if so where? In-Reply-To: References: <20130124102141.T75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 24 January 2013 18:55, Chris Halarewich wrote: > On 1/24/13, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, jim davis wrote: > > OP seemed to be asking how to plug a USB thumb drive containing > data into an SD slot on a computer. bingo we have a winner :) Yes, I know that. I understood, I think everyone did. But look at the bigger picture: The question is: I want to take data on a USB stick & get it into something that doesn't have USB ports but does have an SD card slot. Data: * USB sticks are cheap * SD cards are cheap * Gadgets to connect USB to SD are expensive & very hard to find So turn the problem backwards. Replace your ?10 USB stick with a ?15 USB stick with an SD card in it. Move your data onto that one instead. Then when you want to read the data on the USB-less device, remove the SD card from the USB stick and put it in the SD slot of your device. Simple, easy, cheap, efficient, expandable. Whereas trying to connect USB to SD is complex, difficult, expensive, inefficient & not very expandable. Also, fragile & involves multiple connections. Why bother? I have one of these: http://www.mymemory.co.uk/Memory-Card-Readers/SanDisk/Sandisk-MobileMate-Duo-Micro-Card-reader-With-SD-Adapter It cost me about ?3. Less than the cost of a beer. Retail, it's ?6, still less than a beer in a lot of Europe. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 16:27:36 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:27:36 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down Message-ID: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> http://northtech.us/content/20130123/end-era-rip-fafner I only got to use it a few times, but it was nice to be able to connect to some real iron (I still have an account on the LCM's 11/785, I think). Service is continued on an Alpha DS20, but my username seems to be a bit broken at the moment. Many thanks to Dr. Ulmann for running such a majestic machine at considerable personal expense for all to use! - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 24 16:35:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:35:40 -0800 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5101B73C.7000809@sydex.com> On 01/24/2013 12:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > That one may be correct. I seem to remember that the 32K DRAMs were > aviaalble in 2 versions correspodnig nto low-half (or a 64K chip) good > and high-half good. You had to hold the A7 input in the correct state > when loading the column address. That got started long before 64Kx1 DRAMs. I still have a drawer full of ceramic Intel 2109-xomehting, or half of a 2117--the "something told you which half was good". ISTR this came from the "we're embargoing Japanese DRAMs because of dumping" time. I did manage to get a uPD416 sample at the same time from NEC and it was amazing--it'd hold its data for several seconds without refresh. Not only were the Japanese DRAMs cheaper, but they were better at that time... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 24 16:53:39 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:53:39 -0800 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5101BB73.9090202@sydex.com> On 01/24/2013 01:51 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: >> "Dice" is the plural of "die" in the semiconductor industry as much as >> it is elsewhere. Or, at least, I've seen it repeatedly used as such >> in industry publication. The word "dies" is incorrect for small >> objects cut in a regular pattern from a larger one (as opposed to dies >> used for casting) as far as I know, but it's a fairly widespread error >> in semiconductor discussions. >> >> > I'll have to remember that, thanks! When I first saw the post, I thought that "dies" was a Latin term of art. You know, that thing with: Tuba mirum, spargens sonum... --Chuck From marvin at west.net Thu Jan 24 17:02:47 2013 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:02:47 -0800 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> On 2013-01-24 14:26, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Marvin Johnston wrote: >> >It is normally better to top post when only one idea is going to put forth. > Or if one is too lazy, or enough of an asshole, to not adequately > delete the extraneous content. Top posting makes a lot of sense for people who want to read the gist of what is being said now, instead of having to scroll. Personally, I do both. But I don't mind the flame bait for people who won't or can't see both sides of the issue. A good point was made about voice synthesizers and top posting in another post. I tend to equate sending messages to back in the 30 baud days ... less is better unless needed for clarification. And never let it be said I won't fan the flames ... especially when I have a few minutes to spare :). From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 17:05:28 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:05:28 +0000 Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 24 January 2013 22:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? "Disk" is American; "disc" is British. (And therefore Correct.) Philips invented it. They're Dutch, i.e. European, and favoured British English over the new-fangled colonial version. That's AFAIK, anyway. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 17:23:19 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:23:19 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124140449.U79333@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140449.U79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> In industry pubs I've read, I've seen them called "dice". > > Are they as authoritative as Wikipedia? :-) I very intentionally did not quote Wikipedia precisely to avoid subsequent source bashing. I always thought it was "dies" too, but in trade rags, advertisements, etc., going back decades, "dice" appears to be the preferred plural within the industry, common street English be damned. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 17:45:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:45:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5101B73C.7000809@sydex.com> References: <5101B73C.7000809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130124154450.V79333@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That got started long before 64Kx1 DRAMs. I still have a drawer full of > ceramic Intel 2109-xomehting, or half of a 2117--the "something told you > which half was good". ISTR this came from the "we're embargoing > Japanese DRAMs because of dumping" time. I did manage to get a uPD416 > sample at the same time from NEC and it was amazing--it'd hold its data > for several seconds without refresh. Not only were the Japanese DRAMs > cheaper, but they were better at that time... . . . and that's why we added a high tarriff on cordless drills and LCD screens From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 24 19:15:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:15:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140449.U79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130124170909.W79333@shell.lmi.net> > >> > Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? The OED (Volume IV: Creel - Duzepere) lists BOTH as plural for "die". Is THAT authoritative enough? (y'all made me walk across the room) But, the closest to THIS meaning of "die" that it offers is a mold, or a cubic random number generator. Unlikely that a plinth is what we mean. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 19:51:13 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:51:13 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140449.U79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <15F4B910-E22F-4219-8034-6A1D2BB21027@gmail.com> On Jan 24, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Dice? Do you mean "dies" maybe? >> >> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> In industry pubs I've read, I've seen them called "dice". >> >> Are they as authoritative as Wikipedia? :-) > > I very intentionally did not quote Wikipedia precisely to avoid > subsequent source bashing. > > I always thought it was "dies" too, but in trade rags, advertisements, > etc., going back decades, "dice" appears to be the preferred plural > within the industry, common street English be damned. You would call the pieces of a diced tomato "tomato dice" (though one seldom has a reason to refer to them as such, I've seen it done in plenty of cooking publications). Basically, the pieces of something that is "diced up" are called "dice", or "die" for plural. I've never seen anyone refer to a "tomato die", but it would probably be syntactically correct. I'm also unsure of the underlying etymology of it, but common wisdom would have it that it's because large food dice are more or less the size of playing dice. Seems a bit too convenient to me; we have plenty of linguists on this list who may know better. - Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 20:13:30 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 02:13:30 +0000 Subject: Was: something else Re: Top Posting Message-ID: <763862817-1359080012-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-884496070-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> And don't get me started on those top subject posters...putting their subject in front of the old thread! From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Jan 24 20:54:02 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:54:02 -0700 Subject: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5101F3CA.5070407@landcomp.net> On 1/24/13 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> >On 01/23/2013 07:50 PM, Dave Land wrote: >> >>> Well, that blows that idea. I don't HAVE any SSSD disks, just DSDD. >>> Back to the drawing board I guess. >> >> Most 8" disks (assuming that the aperture in the jacket is in a >> position that matches the index sensor on your drive) will work just >> fine in either density or side-edness. There is no difference in the >> media coating. > > First, I confirm that every 8" media I every encountered > was able to be both SD and DD as well as SS and DS > as far as the media coating was concerned (except for media > purchased from one company which had a high failure rate > when used a DS), The index hole is another matter. > > My experience with the DEC RX02 floppy drive and the > DSD 880/30 drive may be helpful. The DSD 880/30 drive > emulates 3 * RL02 (NON-removable for this hardware) > and a single RX03 floppy drive which can accept any > 8" standard floppy media which the DEC RX02 accepts. > About a dozen companies sold these media, with both > unformatted and formatted being available. The DEC RX02 > drive is NOT able to perform a Low Level Format from > scratch, but if the 8" floppy media has already been LLF > and is relatively undamaged, then the DEC RX02 is able > to toggle between SSSD and SSDD usage. On the other > hand, the DSD 880/30 is able to do an LLF from scratch > either as SS or DS, depending on the index hole. > > At one point I specifically purchased DSDD media to be > used with this drive, but was not able to find them consistently > when additional media were needed. The DSD 880/30 has > two detection circuits which allow it to use two different index > holes. When SS media are used, the index hole is expected to > be about 3 mm above the centre hub hole and about 1 mm offset > to the right. (The bottom of the floppy media is the edge which > enters the floppy drive first and the top surface is the surface > the suppliers label.) When DS media are used, the index hole > is expected to be about 3 mm above the centre hub hole, but > this time offset to the right about 10 mm. > > My first solution was to punch an extra pair of holes in the jackets > and cover up the SS index hole when I wanted to use SS media > as DS media. Later, I managed to add a DPDT switch into the > detection circuits and "encourage" the DSD 880/30 drive to > believe that a SS index hole was actually the DS index hole > by reversing the circuits using the switch. In the other position, > the switch changed the circuits back to the original function and > the SS media reverted back to being SS again with the DS media > also being detected correctly. > > Why every 8" floppy media were coated identically on both sides > I don't know, but that was the standard with every SS 8" floppy > soft sectored media I have ever seen. EXCEPT that when I > encountered a few 8" floppy media with a DEC label, the failure > rate as SS media was normal. HOWEVER, when the DSD 880/30 > drive attempted to do an LLF, about 10% (if I remember correctly - > this was 25 years ago after all) failed the DS attempt at an LLF. > How DEC managed to obtain media which were degraded on the > second side so frequently when none of the other 8" floppy media > I encountered had that problem (i.e. the other media were able to > either LLF both sides or none and VERY few failed the DS LLF) > I can't explain, but that was my experience. > > Jerome Fine I tried the A1 SSSD & XER5 SSDD formats in 22disk tonight, and still no love for the Xerox. I can format them accordingly, and then actually write files to them successfully with 22disk, but the damned Xerox won't read them. :P I'm wondering if the index hole may be an issue also, as I looked into the drive and there appears to be 2 index sensors, one right above the other (looking in from the front). The upper sensor matches the index hole on my Fujifilm DSDD discs. It's a Shugart drive, but I have no idea what model they used. If the other sensor is for SSSD and SSDD, maybe I need to figure a way to punch the hole to coincide with the other sensor? (and block off the hole on the upper one). It may be tricky to punch the hole, since I don't have a hole punch with a deep enough throat to go in that far on the disk... Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 21:39:50 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:39:50 -0800 Subject: Density (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130123213011.Q65052@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>,<510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>,<5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>,<5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, <5100BC85.3040009@landcomp.net>, <20130123213011.Q65052@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: SD and DD use the same transition rate. It is how the datais encoded that makes the difference. It wasn't denser transistionsor closer tracks, it was FM to MFM.Quad density was hight transition rate per track but stll MFM.Dwight > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:00:11 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Density (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Dave Land wrote: > > Well now, that's an interesting twist. They're definitely soft-sectored. > > I was under the assumption that the physical media was different between > > the types of disks. So the DSDD are the same stuff, just a little higher > > quality oxide to support more and closer tracks? > > close. > 8" SD V DD are NOT more NOR closer tracks. They are both 77 tracks at 48 > tracks per inch. The difference is how much data is crammed onto each > track. The oxide is nominally the same, but you are right that DD relies > on high quality. > SSSD holds a total of about 250K > SSDD holds a total of about .6M, or about 1.2M for DSDD. > DSSD existed, but was not very commonly used. > > > However, on 5.25", there are both 48tpi and 96 tpi, (more and closer > tracks), > AND on both 5.25" and 3.5" there are two different oxide formulations > available for each for different "densities" of recording on each track. > > 5.25 is available with 300 Oersted 5.25" for FM (typically about 100K) > or MFM (typically 160K or 180K per side ("360K")) > and > 600 Oersted for MFM "high density" ("1.2M") > (same recording format as "DD MFM", but twice the data transfer rate) > > 3.5" is available in 600 oersted ("720K") and > 700- 750 oersted ("1.4M") > Same number of tracks (80), track spacing (135 tpi), but two different > densities on the tracks. > (same recording format, but twice the data transfer rate) > > Besides the common forms, there also exist numerous variants, such > as 100 tpi 5.25", 67.5 tpi 3.5", GCR, etc. > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 24 22:56:09 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:56:09 -0500 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51021069.5070200@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>How DEC managed to obtain media which were degraded on the >>second side so frequently when none of the other 8" floppy media >>I encountered had that problem (i.e. the other media were able to >>either LLF both sides or none and VERY few failed the DS LLF) >>I can't explain, but that was my experience. >> >Perhaps that was the origin of the silly rumor >(although not necessarily false) that MOST media >being manufactured had enormous failure rate >(higher than 50%?) and that therefore ALL media >was tested - those that passed on both sides were >sold as DS, those that only failed one side were >flipped over to present the "good" side and then sold >as SS. > While I agree that early products may have had production problems (although I don't remember seeing many problems even in the early 1980s), it was rare to find any problems with an 8" floppy after they became somewhat out of date (probably by the 1990s). For a couple of years, I used the DSD 880/30 as my primary drive and the RX03 as my primary backup. While I seem to remember using many 8" media, it was probably less than 2000 in total. So my sample size was relatively small. However, the sample size was large enough (with about a dozen manufacturers) to at least suggest that when only a single source had substantially different reliability characteristics, those media must have been from a different batch. Perhaps DEC stockpiled 8" floppy media at the beginning far ahead of when the production became VERY reliable on both sides of the media. >Some versions of the stories go so far as to say >that finished diskettes were OPENED to flip the media. >(based on an assumption that media could not be tested >until it was installed in a jacket with sleeve and label) > Even if testing could not have been done without the jacket (which seems sort of obviously to be false), ..... >Q: If you had that high a failure rate, what would YOU do about it? >Cherry pick out of what should have been trash, marginal media that >would test, or test PART, as "good" to market? >Q: What impact would the labor cost to do such have on total >production cost? > ... it seems doubtful that the labour cost associated with testing each individual floppy media would even be cost effective. >Or would you shut it down until you could get adequate quality >that no significant portion tested "bad"? >Was Verbatim Datalife the result of such a shutdown? > Were Verbatim Datalife floppy media guaranteed for LIFE (of the company - obviously)? >NOTE: in the civilized world (as opposed to our industry), >manufacturing does SAMPLING of output, and statistically >determines whether to take the risk of any bad product, >based on the percentage of failures. > >If one were to actually search through product searching >for ANY that could be marketed, then it could be assumed >that one would be inundated by product failures. >which happened. > As I specified before, my experience with floppy media was more than satisfactory as far as the reliability of the media and retention of the data was concerned. However, when more than 1 MB of storage was needed, 8" floppy media were just too slow, bulky and inconvenient to be worthwhile when tapes and then optical media became available. Jerome Fine From xmechanic at landcomp.net Fri Jan 25 00:53:47 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:53:47 -0700 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) Message-ID: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> You guys are going to get a good laugh out of this... I got desperate and did a little measuring and eyeballing on the index sensors on my 8" drive, and then took one of my prized DSDD Fujifilm guaranteed 100% error-free disks, and carefully opened it up and even more carefully slid the disk out onto a clean sheet of paper. I then took a 1/4" drill bit and heated the back side till it was almost red hot and shoved it through the jacket around where the other sensor was located. Cleaned up the excess plastic with a razor blade and smoothed everything up and carefully re-inserted the disk. Covered up the other sensor hole and tried it out. Oops! Hole was about 3/16" too low. Carefully slide the disk back out and notched the hole out a bit. Re-assemble disk and tried it again. Ahaa! Drive now sees disc. Formatted with 22disk using the XER5 SSDD setting and wrote 2 hex files to it. Shut down PC, hooked everything back up, and miracle of miracles, the Xerox actually read the files and let me copy them to the hard disk!! Now all I need to do is get MLOAD.COM loaded on it so I can combine the 2 hex files (kermit & the Xerox overlay) and theoretically, it should load and run. But it's been a very long day, and I just now found MLOAD on my Walnut Creek CD, so something to do tomorrow. So, the theory is correct, the 2 sensors DO designate between single & double sided disks... (for future reference) :-) Dave Land Land (vintage) Computer Service :-D From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 25 01:02:05 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:02:05 -0000 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> Message-ID: <06bf01cdfac9$e3986bc0$aac94340$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston > Sent: 24 January 2013 23:03 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Top Posting > > On 2013-01-24 14:26, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > From: Fred Cisin > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> >It is normally better to top post when only one idea is going to put forth. > > Or if one is too lazy, or enough of an asshole, to not adequately > > delete the extraneous content. > > Top posting makes a lot of sense for people who want to read the gist of > what is being said now, instead of having to scroll. > > Personally, I do both. But I don't mind the flame bait for people who won't > or can't see both sides of the issue. A good point was made about voice > synthesizers and top posting in another post. > > I tend to equate sending messages to back in the 30 baud days ... less is > better unless needed for clarification. > > And never let it be said I won't fan the flames ... especially when I have a > few minutes to spare :). Frankly this is such a tedious topic, because there are valid arguments on both sides All we get is a lot of heat and no light and no solution. I just wish people would stop these threads, and understand that different people have different preferences and they are all valid. There is no right answer until someone invents an email format that abstracts the information, allowing email readers to be configured to the user's preference for top or bottom posting. Regards Rob From cym224 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 13:03:17 2013 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:03:17 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 24 January 2013 12:52, Fred Cisin wrote (in part): > Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of failure to trim. Or one is forced to use an execrable mail client such as Microsoft Outhouse (which does not allow to trim). N. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jan 24 13:13:12 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:13:12 -0800 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>, <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>, <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>, <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <510187C8.9070600@jwsss.com> On 1/24/2013 10:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> I remember manufacturers selling SS and DS 5.25" disks for commodorethat >> were actually all DS, just a disk notcher away from double the storage. > Yeah? > So, has anybody here EVER seen a 5.25" disk that was NOT coated > on both sides? > >> as for the 486SX (or was it 386SX) > NO, it was NOT. > 386DX was 32 bit; 386SX was 16 bit > 486DX had an FPU; 4986SX did not have FPU > >> debacle, there was software thatcould >> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, > NOPE. >> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs >> made by AMD > We are talking INTEL. > >> that could be "converted" into a 486DX by a simple piece of >> software.there were a bunch of tricks with software around those days >> likethe AMD 486DX-80 and so forth this practice is continued to present >> with cpu cores being disabled,even though there may be nothing wrong >> with them. > "Nothing wrong with them" > The MANUFACTURER says something is DEFECTIVE. > A user runs a TRIVIAL test, and declares that the manufacturer is WRONG. > Same thing wherein SPINRITE would "test" sectors DECLARED BAD by the > drive manufacturer, and SPINRITE would over-ride the manufacturer's > analog tests! After all, "3 successful read writes is a more reliable > test than 100 read/writes and measuring the signal amplitude!" You are talking apples and oranges here. He is citing the example of a chip that is "defeatured" which means that the manufacturer makes one unit and either enables the feature or removes it. Most tests would be cheaper to test a common unit such as this overall and then defeature the hardware on the unit to be priced lower later, and kick out all bad media regardless of where the errors are. The comparison he is making should be about that, not trying to extend the yield on a process by cherry picking. You are totally right a defect list is not just to cover excess capacity, it should and must be a report of the defective spots on a media type device. > Users used to replace the crystal in 5170s for greater speed. > THEN, they would bad-mouth reliability of 5170. > DUH. > THAT is why IBM added boot code to refuse to boot with a changed clock > speed. > > >> for commodore 64 again there was a utility called "soft sector >> format"which would format disks that had bad sectors, marking the bad >> sectorsso you could use whatever good portions remained, for those of us >> whowere too cheap to buy new/good disks. > It was sometimes possible, in the case of physical defects, to move the > sectors around to try to get the sectors to not overlap the defects. > Every competent FORMAT program, even MS-DOS "FORMAT" will mark sectors, > blocks, or tracks bad and use the rest of the disk, unless blocked areas > were in unmovable locations (such as the Boot sector and DIRectory area). > Our disk controller for the SMD used soft sectoring and could place the sectors to the clock / bit for each sector on the track. We had an extensive analysis program that would place the defects when discovered in the gap between the start and end of our sectors, the largest gap on the drive. On SMD, however the manufacturers had a requirement that defects be 2 bits or more, or false address marks. any half or one bit errors, the media had to be discarded or repaired. Also only a single defect / track. I don't think our algorithm which is similar to the above would work on floppies because I suspect they have more of the smaller errors, and certainly could not assume a single error / track and work. This still assumes with two errors a scheme could fit the required number of sectors on the track, or the OS could cope with missing sectors with its file system. Most OS's seem to expect defect free media now days, and make no use of file system level defect mapping anymore. I think that thread was discussed some few months ago, won't rehash it here. > Dan, you should be familiar with the software to re-arrange and move > sectors to place the defect in the right place for Vault Pro-lock > copy protection. (paperclip scratch, and code looks for it). > NOTE: we are not talking about Pro-Lock-PLUS, which NEVER reached market, > although, to this day, gets blamed for misunderstood problems. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 24 17:51:42 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:51:42 +0000 (WET) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format Message-ID: <01OPDXH1ZD0O0060AA@beyondthepale.ie> > > Consider that 42 is the answer to > whatdoyougetwhenyoumultiplysixbynine > I thought it was division that was messed up on slighlty later Intel CPUs, not multiplication? How did it go again? I am Pentium of Borg. Division is futile. Prepare to be approximated. From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Jan 25 00:11:22 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:11:22 +1100 Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 25/01/2013, at 9:02 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? > (does YOUR car have disc or disk brakes?) Drums, which predate discs for both cars and computers :-) OK, so my daily driver has discs but the other car has cable operated drums although it's often times difficult to know if the drums are doing anything :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jan 24 15:11:27 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:11:27 -0800 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net>, , <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com>, , <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com>, , <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com>, , <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to>, , <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net>, , <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net>, <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5101A37F.3000804@jwsss.com> On 1/24/2013 12:45 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Nope,I remember running this software, it was from the above-board peopleI think it was called above486 and it would re-enable the math coprocessor. Above board from Intel was a memory addin product with some mapping junk on it to make it difficult for people who were selling addin memory boards alone to duplicate. Are you speaking of someone with the same name? There was huge numbers of people selling boards soon after the 286 came out and that didn't die down until motherboards and simm memory density made it more efficient to put all your memory on the motherboard. The other thing that killed the memory was crappy bus performance of the addin memory. However I don't recall an "above board" of any other kind than Intel. someone could have had Above486 and not conflicted with that product service mark though. > in previous versions of the above board (386) you needed the hardware version. > this is history, it wasnt a blown fuse or anything, the cpu's were shipped with thecopro but disabled, and they found a way to enable it. > I do remember something about how it only worked for certain cpusso thats why I thought it might have only applied to AMD and not intel. > >>>> debacle, there was software thatcould >>>> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, >>> NOPE. >>>> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >>>> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs >>>> made by AMD >>> We are talking INTEL. >> He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have >> had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that >> the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with >> a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. That could have been based on >> faulty rumor, but it's certainly in line with modern manufacturing >> practice of GPUs and multicore CPUs, where the lower core-count >> devices are the same dice with faulty units disabled (or, if the >> market for the cheaper chips is strong enough, potentially non-faulty >> units, but that's less frequent than the overclocking crowd seems to >> think). >> >> >> - Dave >> > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jan 24 16:12:32 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:12:32 -0800 Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5101B1D0.7040309@jwsss.com> On 1/24/2013 12:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:36 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Jan 24, 2013, at 1:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> debacle, there was software thatcould >>>> completely restore functionality.I think it was called above-board, >>> NOPE. >>>> which had hardware as well as software,but on many SX type systems it >>>> was just software Actually if I remember correctly it was the 486SX CPUs >>>> made by AMD >>> We are talking INTEL. >> He may be talking about the AMD second-sourced 486SX, which may have >> had a different method of disabling the FPU. My recollection is that >> the 486SX was, in fact, the same die as the 486DX (FPU and all) with >> a fuse blown that disabled the FPU. > Back in the day, I heard the FPU was "disconnected" with laser-drilled > holes on dice that failed FPU testing, then the package was labelled > to match. To be clear, a wafer was made up of dice that were intended > to be sold as 486DX chips but failed FPUs (and most likely enough ones > with good FPUs to cover customer demand) were pierced. I've seen several references to laser cutting of locations on dies. I scrapped 10 systems which were built up by a company to do on die programming, which consisted of a 2 ton slab of optical grade surfaced granite, a ND laser to zap the dies, and HP micro position sensors, and other piezo positioners as well as macro positioners to move the dies. I think the comment was there was 300k in each unit, and they were "free" if we just would move them by the end of the month. This was 300k in 2000 era gear, (PC and some embedded running it) so in 80's era scale it would have been more. I wonder how many chips they'd have to have that were bad to make the economics work, investing say 500k to sell scrap silicon? at minimum. who knows what the NRE was on either the systems I had or the cost of doing it in the 80's w/o cheap PCs, probably PDP11 or other workstation grade controlling systems to develop software for. > I can't promise what I heard then was true, but it was commonly > reported as such. It's possible that they did that at first, then > after a die shrink split the lines into straight 486DX and 486SX > wafers and discarded any that failed any test. At first, though, I > find it believable that yields were low enough to want to sell any > parts they could (since retail prices were many hundreds of dollars > per CPU back then). > > -ethan > > From wilson at dbit.com Fri Jan 25 02:01:03 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 03:01:03 -0500 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:53:47PM -0700, Dave Land wrote: >I then >took a 1/4" drill bit and heated the back side till it was almost >red hot and shoved it through the jacket around where the other sensor >was located. Holy CRAP!!! Office Depot has single-hole punches for $1.79 (you can reach in through the center hole of the jacket and do each side separately), but this definitely wins for Mr.-Joshua-in-Lethal-Weapon-style bad-ass-ness! John Wilson D Bit From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 25 07:21:56 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 05:21:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? Well don't hold out! Tell us! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jan 25 07:37:15 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 08:37:15 -0500 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <51028A8B.7050907@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/01/13 2:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 13 January 2013 17:21, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 13/01/13 9:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was >>> PDP-compatible? >>> >> >> BK Elektronika iirc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK > > That's the bunny. ... I wonder what this is all about: http://r.ebay.com/qTDJad --Toby > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 08:04:28 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:04:28 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 24 January 2013 19:03, Nemo wrote: > On 24 January 2013 12:52, Fred Cisin wrote (in part): >> Top-posting is an acknowledgement and acceptance of failure to trim. > > Or one is forced to use an execrable mail client such as Microsoft > Outhouse (which does not allow to trim). Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?) Something like this is what I use at work... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jan 25 09:08:18 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:08:18 -0500 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> >John Wilson wrote: >>On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:53:47PM -0700, Dave Land wrote: > > >>I then >>took a 1/4" drill bit and heated the back side till it was almost >>red hot and shoved it through the jacket around where the other sensor >>was located. >> >Holy CRAP!!! Office Depot has single-hole punches for $1.79 (you can >reach in through the center hole of the jacket and do each side separately), >but this definitely wins for Mr.-Joshua-in-Lethal-Weapon-style bad-ass-ness! > I don't think that anyone picked up on the solution which I found that solved the problem (at least for each floppy drive) permanently and no longer required each floppy media to have additional index holes made in the jacket. Some floppy drives have two detection circuits. One is for SS media when the standard index hole is offset to the right by about 1 mm. The second is for DS media for which the standard index hole is offset by about 10 mm to the right. One example of such a drive was the DSD 880/30 which included an RX03 floppy drive. I added a DPDT switch. The first position kept the detection circuits identical to the factory standard. The second position reversed the use of the index holes. As a result, with the switch in the second position, the floppy drive informed the software that a DS media was present and both sides of the media could be used. Note that even if SS media has been pre-formatted (I presume that meant a Low Level Format which neither DEC RX01 or DEC RX02 drives and software were even able to perform), it was almost certain that the second side of the media would not have been LLF. At the time, I had a DSD 880/30 which included an RX03 8" floppy drive which is able to support all the functions of a DEC RX02 floppy drive and controller. In addition, the DSD RX03 floppy drive had a second head and the other hardware support for DS media along with the support to LLF all media using both SS and DS index holes. Setting the DPDT switch to the second position provided the ability to the user to LLF (normally) SS floppy media as DS without the added time required to punch a second pair of holes in the jacket of each new SS floppy media. Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 09:30:30 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:30:30 -0500 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <51028A8B.7050907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> <51028A8B.7050907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > I wonder what this is all about: http://r.ebay.com/qTDJad >From the description, looks like someone scraped wikipedia last year, did some formatting, and is selling a 56 page book of it. -ethan From shutchman at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 10:41:49 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:41:49 -0500 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 Message-ID: I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were attached to a SUN 3/140 station. The monitors are SUN Model M19P114 part no 365-1051-01. The pin out on the 3/140 is 1-VIDEO+ 2-GND 3-HSYNC 4-VSYNC 5-NC 6-VIDEO- 7 GND 8-GND 9-GND VIDEO+ and VIDEO- are ECL levels , and HSYNC and VSYNC are TTL levels. I believe it is EGA monochrome. I am not sure if this SUN has non standard ( proprietary) output for video. Is there anyone that knows a way to connect this SUN to a standard LCD VGA monitor using some kind of video converter or by using a multi-sync monitor ? Hutch From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 25 10:57:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 08:57:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> > > Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > Well don't hold out! Tell us! :) I agree completely with Liam. Shugart and IBM were American companies who developed floppy "disk"s But, CD-ROM "disc" came from audio Compact Disc, which was a European development. (Dutch, not German) I've had cars with DISC brakes, and cars with DISK brakes. (and yes, plenty with DRUMs, which don't work anywhere near as well. Stopping my Jeep FC170 with a full load required some planning. When I wrote the Honda book, I had some minor battles with my publisher when I spelled "DISK". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 25 11:06:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I don't think that anyone picked up on the solution > which I found that solved the problem (at least for > each floppy drive) permanently and no longer required > each floppy media to have additional index holes made > in the jacket. AND, . . . once the disk is formatted, WD and NEC style controllers can usually read/write a formatted disK (unless it's an HP disC) without needing to see index. Therefore only the drive used for FORMATing needs the modification. 'course not have a functioning index can play havoc with the guesses that the FDC makes about what is wrong when there is a problem. INT13h may return an error code 128 (time-out/drive not ready) when an actual problem might be something else. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:01:08 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:01:08 -0200 Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <30DEE7C6A125475D9C927607F7CAA586@tababook> >> Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? > Well don't hold out! Tell us! :) DisC is for audio, DisK is for computers. Since the Compact Disc is an AUDIO media, it is called DisC. When used on Data, the name wasn't changed. Apple has a different view on that, more reasonable: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2300 It says that DisC is for optical media and DisK is for magnetic (and enclosured) media. Very reasonable. Wikipedia says the same: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_disc Quoting: "Generally in computer terminology, disk refers to magnetic storage while disc refers to optical storage." So, I stick with apple's (and wikipedia) idea, although wikipedia has a better explanation about the subject. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:03:49 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:03:49 -0200 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> > Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?) > Something like this is what I use at work... Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty like thunderbird. Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:05:40 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:05:40 -0200 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 References: Message-ID: I'd say that video- equals to GND. I'd combine H and V sync and try it on a composite monitor. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hutch" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:41 PM Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 >I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were > attached to a SUN 3/140 station. The monitors are SUN Model M19P114 part > no 365-1051-01. > The pin out on the 3/140 is > > 1-VIDEO+ > 2-GND > 3-HSYNC > 4-VSYNC > 5-NC > 6-VIDEO- > 7 GND > 8-GND > 9-GND > > VIDEO+ and VIDEO- are ECL levels , and HSYNC and VSYNC are TTL levels. > > I believe it is EGA monochrome. I am not sure if this SUN has non standard > ( proprietary) output for video. Is there anyone that knows a way to > connect this SUN to a standard LCD VGA monitor using some kind of video > converter or by using a multi-sync monitor ? > > Hutch From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 25 11:16:23 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:23 -0800 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> On 1/25/13 8:41 AM, Hutch wrote: > I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were > attached to a SUN 3/140 station. > I believe it is EGA monochrome. Nope. MUCH higher resolution/horz sweep rate than EGA (1152 x 900) Common failure mode is the high voltage supply. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 25 11:27:18 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:27:18 -0500 Subject: disk vs. disc, was Re: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 11:57 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? > > On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >> Well don't hold out! Tell us! :) > > I agree completely with Liam. > > Shugart and IBM were American companies who developed floppy "disk"s > > But, CD-ROM "disc" came from audio Compact Disc, which was a European > development. (Dutch, not German) So is it definitely the case that the common European spelling for what us Yanks would call a "disk" is "disc"? So a CD-ROM is more properly called a "disc"? I just want to be clear on that. That's something to be delightfully pedantic about. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:35:05 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:35:05 -0800 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Hutch wrote: > I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were > attached to a SUN 3/140 station. The monitors are SUN Model M19P114 part > no 365-1051-01. > The pin out on the 3/140 is > > 1-VIDEO+ > 2-GND > 3-HSYNC > 4-VSYNC > 5-NC > 6-VIDEO- > 7 GND > 8-GND > 9-GND > > VIDEO+ and VIDEO- are ECL levels , and HSYNC and VSYNC are TTL levels. > > I believe it is EGA monochrome. I am not sure if this SUN has non standard > ( proprietary) output for video. Is there anyone that knows a way to > connect this SUN to a standard LCD VGA monitor using some kind of video > converter or by using a multi-sync monitor ? > > Hutch Further info. No idea how to hook this up to a more modern monitor. http://www.sun3arc.org/FAQ/sun.hardware.FAQ 501-1074 3004 "Carrera" CPU 2M (3/75,3/140,3/150,3/160,3/180) monochrome video: The onboard framebuffer is a bwtwo. The video output levels are ECL/TTL, with a resolution of 1152 x 900 at 61.8KHz horizontal sync and 66Hz vertical sync. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 25 11:38:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:38:30 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> Message-ID: <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 12:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?) >> Something like this is what I use at work... > > Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty > like thunderbird. > > Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. I use it all the time, with very heavy volume. I have no problems and no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 12:20:27 2013 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:20:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> Message-ID: <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I hate bottom posting...? I want to read what the person wrote, not what others wrote just to get to the point.? Some people are nice enough to edit and format, but too many people just add their content at the end and it's quite annoying. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 25 12:10:19 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:10:19 -0600 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> <51028A8B.7050907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201301251826.r0PIQ45l072001@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:30 AM 1/25/2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >From the description, looks like someone scraped wikipedia last year, >did some formatting, and is selling a 56 page book of it. At $48.09, nice work if you can get it. - John From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 12:25:42 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:25:42 -0200 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>> Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?) >>> Something like this is what I use at work... >> Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty >> like thunderbird. >> Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. > I use it all the time, with very heavy volume. I have no problems and > no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software) I must be unlucky :( I always wanted to use thunderbird, but it NEVER works with me. It always locks up, looses e-mails, creates all kinds of havoc :( I miss Calypso :( From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 25 12:44:08 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:44:08 -0800 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Me too. Especially when the thread is long. ;-) Takes a while sometimes to get to the "new" content. I happen to have an email reader that "hides" all of the replied to messages (unless there's been editing) so I only see the new content. TTFN - Guy On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > I hate bottom posting... > > I want to read what the person wrote, not what others wrote just to get to the point. > > Some people are nice enough to edit and format, but too many people just add their content at the end and it's quite annoying. > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jan 25 12:51:58 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:51:58 -0500 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>I don't think that anyone picked up on the solution >>which I found that solved the problem (at least for >>each floppy drive) permanently and no longer required >>each floppy media to have additional index holes made >>in the jacket. >> >AND, . . . >once the disk is formatted, WD and NEC style controllers can >usually read/write a formatted disK (unless it's an HP disC) >without needing to see index. Therefore only the drive used >for FORMATing needs the modification. > > HOWEVER, the device driver should really look at the status of the SS / DS bit to determine which index hole is present. Otherwise, the device driver will attempt to read / write sectors which only exist in a DS configuration when, in fact, the media has had a LLF on only one side. The DEC DY.MAC file from V04.00 of RT-11 actually had the additional code to use DS media. That additional code (if I remember correctly) had some bugs which strongly suggested that DEC had never tested to see if it would work. Since the DEC RX02 was a SS drive, the additional code was never activated. Correcting the code and adding it to the DY(X).SYS device driver was relatively straight forward and when the DSD 880/30 was in use fully supported the RX03 floppy drive and DSDD media. >'course not have a functioning index can play havoc with the >guesses that the FDC makes about what is wrong when there is >a problem. INT13h may return an error code 128 (time-out/drive >not ready) when an actual problem might be something else. > I seem to remember that at least one other 3rd party RX02 emulation also supported DSDD floppy drives and media. As far as I know, that other emulation also had hardware to detect the SS / DD bit. I generally avoided NON-DEC (or at least NON-DEC compatible) hardware and software since the PDP-11 and RT-11 have always been enough of a challenge. But it does seem a bit strange that hardware would be built without a detection circuit for the SS/ DS bit. As far as I understand the way a soft-sectored floppy media functions, the index hole is necessary to tell the hardware where the first sector is located. I am probably incorrect, so if anyone can provide the correct information, what is the purpose of the index hole for a SS 8" floppy media and how can a system function without that index hole? Jerome Fine From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jan 25 12:56:41 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:56:41 +0000 Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <30DEE7C6A125475D9C927607F7CAA586@tababook> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <30DEE7C6A125475D9C927607F7CAA586@tababook> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 9:01 AM >>> Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? > DisC is for audio, DisK is for computers. > Since the Compact Disc is an AUDIO media, it is called DisC. When used > on Data, the name wasn't changed. > Apple has a different view on that, more reasonable: > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2300 > It says that DisC is for optical media and DisK is for magnetic (and > enclosured) media. Very reasonable. > Wikipedia says the same: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_disc > Quoting: "Generally in computer terminology, disk refers to magnetic > storage while disc refers to optical storage." > So, I stick with apple's (and wikipedia) idea, although wikipedia has > a better explanation about the subject. In the days of the 7 Dwarfs and the BUNCH, IBM, Univac, Burroughs, Honeywell, and CDC used "disk" for rotating platters covered with a magnetic medium, while GE, RCA and NCR used "disc". (Verified by a look at Bitsavers, rather than the nits at Wikipedia.) Memorex and CDC as the important OEM drive manufacturers both used "disk". Given the relative importance of the "disk" users in the history of the industry, it's likely that the later manufacturers used what the customer base was already used to. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From bear at typewritten.org Fri Jan 25 13:18:03 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:18:03 -0800 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <481C630F-19E7-4147-BE0D-8407B722A068@typewritten.org> If the LCD supports an ECL monochrome video signal, and will sync to a 66 Hz vertical and 61.8 kHz horizontal... then, yes. I rate it as unlikely you'll find an LCD that does, though. Extron made sync/signal converters for attaching workstation graphics to projection displays that may help in your quest, but even here you will find that they mostly do not output full resolution. ok bear. -- Sent from my iPhone On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:13, Hutch wrote: > any idea if it is possible to use an LCD monitor? > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 1/25/13 8:41 AM, Hutch wrote: >> >>> I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were >>> attached to a SUN 3/140 station. >> >> I believe it is EGA monochrome. >> >> Nope. MUCH higher resolution/horz sweep rate than EGA (1152 x 900) >> >> Common failure mode is the high voltage supply. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 13:22:21 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:22:21 -0800 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <5102DB6D.5030508@sydex.com> On 01/24/2013 10:53 PM, Dave Land wrote: > So, the theory is correct, the 2 sensors DO designate between single & > double sided disks... (for future reference) :-) When DSHD 3.5" floppies were just coming out, a box of 10 at Fry's would set you back 40-50 bucks, depending on brand (Fujis were the cheapest, ISTR). There were folks selling punch jigs to turn DS2D disks into somewhat serviceable DSHD ones, adding the density indicator aperture to the side opposite the write-protect aperture. I never bothered with the fancy jigs--I'd just stack up five or so of the DS2Ds in a little jig on my drill press and use a 1/8" brad-point bit to make the hole. (FWIW, the disks were for short-term use only--I don't have a single one surviving in the collection and I've never seen any in conversion jobs that I've done, so the "solution" was a stopgap at best). So your use of a drill on a floppy isn't the first time. :) A couple of questions for the group... Did the price on the barium-ferrite DSED floppies ever reach an affordable level? I recall paying something like $30 for the box of 3Ms that I have sitting here. Does anyone have a Memorex 650 8" drive and media kicking around? It's not something that you see in the wild. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 25 13:43:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:43:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130125112142.K97781@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I generally avoided NON-DEC (or at least NON-DEC compatible) > hardware and software since the PDP-11 and RT-11 have always > been enough of a challenge. But it does seem a bit strange that > hardware would be built without a detection circuit for the SS/ DS > bit. What "SS/DS bit"? MOST systems do not have any such hardware. They SELECT a head, as a signal FROM the controller TO the drive, and then read/write, etc with no side feedback from the drive. > As far as I understand the way a soft-sectored floppy media > functions, the index hole is necessary to tell the hardware where > the first sector is located. I am probably incorrect, so if anyone > can provide the correct information, what is the purpose of the > index hole for a SS 8" floppy media and how can a system > function without that index hole? It does not tell the hardware where the first sector is located. It tells the "hardware" and the software where the track starts. The software then ON MOST SYSTEMS assumes that the next sector is the first one. On MOST SYSTEMS: When a READ (or WRITE) command is processed, the head could be anywhere along the track. Reading begins, watching for the desired sector header. If it is encountered, then the READ (or WRITE) is done. It may or may not be found before the index pulse. After the index pulse, NEC controllers are momentarily "blind", so any sector headers that are too soon after index (such as some written by WD controllers) are inaccessible. After several index pulses without finding the desired sector header, the controller declares "Sector Not Found" (Error code 4 of INT13h). If NO sector headers were seen, due to blank, damaged, or wrong density media, then INT13h gives an error code #2 ("General Failure" aka "NONE OF THE ABOVE"). If, after an excessive amount of time without seeing an index pulse, then error #80h ("Time Out" of "Drive Not Ready") If there is a successful read before Index, or with NO index, but before Time Out, then NOBODY CARES. Therefore, in normal use, index IS needed during FORMAT, to specify where to start the track (not bothered with on Apple][, or Commodore). But index is not needed for READ nor WRITE unless other problems occur. Some Teac 55 series drives rely on index internally to the drive, and therefore choke on lack of index. Option Board software relies on index, and will choke without it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 25 13:49:23 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:49:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <30DEE7C6A125475D9C927607F7CAA586@tababook> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20130125114526.T97781@shell.lmi.net> > > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2300 > > It says that DisC is for optical media and DisK is for magnetic (and > > enclosured) media. Very reasonable. > > Wikipedia says the same: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_disc > > Quoting: "Generally in computer terminology, disk refers to magnetic > > storage while disc refers to optical storage." Therefore, MO (Magneto-Optical) would be a "disCK" :-) > Given the relative importance of the "disk" users in the history of > the industry, it's likely that the later manufacturers used what the > customer base was already used to. Unlike the rest of the industry, HP (while it existed) stuck with "disC". No idea, nor cre, how Meg Whitman spells it, nor anything else. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 25 13:55:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:55:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: disk vs. disc, was Re: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130125115237.E97781@shell.lmi.net> > > But, CD-ROM "disc" came from audio Compact Disc, On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > So is it definitely the case that the common European spelling for > what us Yanks would call a "disk" is "disc"? So I have been told. No personal knowledge. Perhaps one of the linguists can elaborate > So a CD-ROM is more properly called a "disc"? YES. "CD" in "CD-ROM" stands for "Compact DisC" > I just want to be clear on that. That's something to be delightfully > pedantic about. :) Perhaps one of the linguists can elaborate From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 14:09:02 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:09:02 +0000 Subject: disk vs. disc, was Re: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: Message-ID: <1940388324-1359144542-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079778878-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Always wondered the same. Longer worded its floppy diskette. Not sure if it would ever be discette in eu? Alternatively discoteque (*sp) I believe is music or cd store in spanish. I'm not sure what disc (in compact disc) is short for if anything. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 14:12:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:12:07 -0800 Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <30DEE7C6A125475D9C927607F7CAA586@tababook> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5102E717.10806@sydex.com> Could the distinction be rooted in what language the word itself is rooted in? Latin: discus Greek: diskos Just a suggestion; be as skeptical/sceptical as you please. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 14:50:31 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:50:31 -0500 Subject: disk vs. disc, was Re: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5102F017.90405@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > So is it definitely the case that the common European spelling for > what us Yanks would call a "disk" is "disc"? So a CD-ROM is more > properly called a "disc"? I just want to be clear on that. That's > something to be delightfully pedantic about. :) Everyone just needs to have a toke and relax. I don't really have a problem with using both spellings, even in the same sentence. Peace... Sridhar From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 25 14:51:14 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:51:14 +0100 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> On 24-jan-2013 23:27, David Riley wrote: > http://northtech.us/content/20130123/end-era-rip-fafner Nice article, did you write it? > I only got to use it a few times, but it was nice to be able > to connect to some real iron (I still have an account on the > LCM's 11/785, I think). Service is continued on an Alpha DS20, > but my username seems to be a bit broken at the moment. Yes, for that reason I also really like(d) FAFNER::! Lots of great software on it, too (e.g. Rdb, LaTeX and more). I couldn't log in either, so best is to ask for your password to be reset and then Telnet and change it. (I wonder how he transferred the user accounts from FAFNER:: to FASOLT::, but the passwords or user group password 'policy' somehow didn't survive.) It was quite funny, actually. I wasn't aware that FAFNER:: was to be shut down, nor any intention thereto, at the time. I hadn't logged on in a while (in my estimation, a month or two/three) and then I was presented with... "Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V8.3". Then I sent an e-mail and everything became clear, I was also shown that video on YouTube (also embedded in the article). It's actually a DS20E, not DS20. The DS20E is a much nicer system, if you ask me. The DS20 looks like a strangely modernized/retrofitted EV6 AlphaServer 1000/A. The DS20E is much leaner, allows for a bit more flexibility in terms of storage and so on and provides EV67 and (earlier) EV68 CPU support. Speaking of the DS20 and for the sake of comparison, EISNER:: (of DECUServe/Encompasserve) is an actual DS20. FASOLT:: will also be a system that won't have any issues with SSH access. For FAFNER::, it was a bit problematic I heard. (Although, I think mostly because of software reliability/stability issues in UCX and not so much the hardware lacking adequate processing power...) > Many thanks to Dr. Ulmann for running such a majestic machine > at considerable personal expense for all to use! Same here! Speaking of expenses, I originally had the idea to host a remote (and at some point even public) access VMS I64 access. I had a bunch of maximized rx2600s and rx2620s with "Montecito" (dual- core, HT, VT-x, etc.) processors, 24 Gbytes RAM per system, GbE and 10GbE MSCP/VMScluster'ed, shared storage, etc. ... but, it would've been too expensive... hot and noisy, especially during summers. I sold off a bunch of system. I only have one rx2620 left and my 'pristine'/'mint' DS15 will be gone soon as well. It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is today... - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 25 15:05:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:05:41 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: > It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable > death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system > than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is > today... Sure looks like it's still under development to me.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 25 16:19:36 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:19:36 +0100 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> On 25-jan-2013 22:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: >> It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable >> death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system >> than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is >> today... > > Sure looks like it's still under development to me.. I once thought the same... (Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago, on comp.os.vms?) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 25 16:25:46 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:25:46 +0100 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5103066A.3040806@xs4all.nl> On 25-jan-2013 21:51, MG wrote: > Speaking of expenses, I originally had the idea to host a remote > (and at some point even public) access VMS I64 access. > ^^^^^^ Correction: Cluster, I meant to write there. - MG From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jan 25 16:26:01 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, MG wrote: > On 25-jan-2013 22:05, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: >>> It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable >>> death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system >>> than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is >>> today... >> >> Sure looks like it's still under development to me.. > > I once thought the same... > > (Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that > presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago, > on comp.os.vms?) If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port it to amd64. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 25 16:00:47 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 22:00:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bad media (Was: Need Kermit for Xerox 820-II in .IMD format In-Reply-To: <5DC9C774F6724DB7B1D4D426CF46F55A@8510p> from "Jim MacKenzie" at Jan 24, 13 03:51:52 pm Message-ID: > I'm not sure what the norm is in industry, but Merriam-Webster believes that > the plural of "die" is always "dies", with the exception of the random > number generator type of "die". > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/die?show=0&t=1359064230 Non-techncila dictionaries are not always the most relaible source of information on techncial terms. Does said dictionary mention that the word 'die' is used for the actual silicon chip? Certianly I've always seen 'dice' as the plural of 'die' in this sesne. And thuis it's what I use myself. For eample I might say soemthing like : 'The CPU in an HP65 is a multichip module containing 6 dice, which are : clock buffer and reset; arithmetic and registers; control and timing; 2 RAMs; and the card reader interface' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 25 16:02:20 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 22:02:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 24, 13 02:02:34 pm Message-ID: > Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? I beleive that it's becuase the floppy disk was invented i nthe States while the compact disk was (partially?) inveted by Philips in Europe and they took the UK spelling. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 25 16:32:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:32:35 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51030803.3030305@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 05:19 PM, MG wrote: >>> It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable >>> death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system >>> than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is >>> today... >> >> Sure looks like it's still under development to me.. > > I once thought the same... > > (Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that > presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago, > on comp.os.vms?) Nope...but people have been predicting the "imminent death" of VMS for twenty years, so I generally disregard statements of same, even if they're from Hoff himself. In other words, "we'll see". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 17:16:50 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:16:50 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <2D722D43-3451-4AFD-AD6A-7788B0B0F5AF@gmail.com> On Jan 25, 2013, at 15:51, MG wrote: > On 24-jan-2013 23:27, David Riley wrote: >> http://northtech.us/content/20130123/end-era-rip-fafner > > Nice article, did you write it? I didn't, it was pointed to by Ian Miller from HP's OpenVMS group via Twitter. > I couldn't log in either, so best is to ask for your password > to be reset and then Telnet and change it. (I wonder how he > transferred the user accounts from FAFNER:: to FASOLT::, but > the passwords or user group password 'policy' somehow didn't > survive.) Already done. When I logged in, I read the mail from the 13th stating his intention to do so to weed out inactive users, which seemed eminently reasonable. All my files were preserved, anyway. > It's actually a DS20E, not DS20. The DS20E is a much nicer > system, if you ask me. The DS20 looks like a strangely > modernized/retrofitted EV6 AlphaServer 1000/A. The DS20E > is much leaner, allows for a bit more flexibility in terms > of storage and so on and provides EV67 and (earlier) EV68 > CPU support. Speaking of the DS20 and for the sake of > comparison, EISNER:: (of DECUServe/Encompasserve) is an > actual DS20. I wasn't aware there was that much of a difference. It looks like I could land a DS20E off eBay for about $1000, which is a little rich for my blood (at the moment, anyway). > I sold off a bunch of system. I only have one rx2620 left and > my 'pristine'/'mint' DS15 will be gone soon as well. I saw your notes about that on this list a few months ago, and would gladly have taken your offer if we were on the same continent; as willing as you were to ship overseas, it would have been too much for me. :-) > It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable > death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system > than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is > today... If their Twitter representation and recent expansion of the hobbyist program is any indication, they're doing no such thing. My impression is that they make enough off their established shops to keep it alive, and hopefully the expansion of the hobbyist program will take it places it otherwise wouldn't go. I just wish I could run it on modern hardware that didn't cost an arm and a leg; I like the idea of Itanium, and Poulson looks like it's the first generation that could compete in the semi-mainstream, but even very used Tukwila and Montecito models sell for over $1000. - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Fri Jan 25 17:22:30 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:22:30 -0500 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <20130125112142.K97781@shell.lmi.net> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> <20130125112142.K97781@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130125232230.GA9402@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:43:49AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >What "SS/DS bit"? Whatever your system has to read the the "TWO SIDED" signal (which is pin 10 on some 8" drives). That's how the drive tells you which of the two possible photocells is seeing index[/sector] pulses. Great idea, not always usefully implemented, and missing on minifloppies. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 17:43:53 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:43:53 -0800 Subject: disk vs. disc, was Re: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <1940388324-1359144542-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079778878-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1940388324-1359144542-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079778878-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <510318B9.70609@sydex.com> On 01/25/2013 12:09 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Always wondered the same. Longer worded its floppy diskette. Not sure > if it would ever be discette in eu? Alternatively discoteque (*sp) I > believe is music or cd store in spanish. I'm not sure what disc (in > compact disc) is short for if anything. I seem to recall that "Diskette" was a trademarked term at one point. I probably should check the trademark database to find out if that was true and when it was abandoned. But I do have 8" floppies in my collection that carry the "Diskette" branding. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 17:45:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:45:45 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <54EA74B8-C7D9-47F9-9F90-A39089CAB7EA@gmail.com> On Jan 25, 2013, at 5:26 PM, David Griffith wrote: > If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port it to amd64. For the market it's generally aimed at, IA64 is a great architecture now that the compilers have matured somewhat. Poulson looks quite competitive, actually. If they want more *mainstream* acceptance, AMD64 isn't a bad choice, but it doesn't look like that's where they want to go (and indeed, not where they make most of their money on VMS or HP-UX). - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 25 18:14:05 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 00:14:05 -0000 Subject: DECnet on SIMH/VMS 3.7 Message-ID: <078501cdfb5a$0f0ef7c0$2d2ce740$@ntlworld.com> I am trying to get DECnet working on SIMH running VMS 3.7 using a DELUA. I have already fixed one bug in the DELUA emulation that gave a fatal controller error on startup, but now I get this: $ @startnet %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 00020011 %OPCOM, 25-JAN-2013 22:15:27.94, message from user DECNET DECnet starting %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0001000C %NCP-I- NMLRSP, listener response - Operation failure, detail # 30 Executor node = 9 (VMS037) %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort $ Can anyone tell me what this means? After that the line bounces up and down with line synchronisation lost errors. Regards Rob From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 18:27:20 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 00:27:20 +0000 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 25 January 2013 18:20, Christian Liendo wrote: > I hate bottom posting... > > I want to read what the person wrote, not what others wrote just to get to the point. > > Some people are nice enough to edit and format, but too many people just add their content at the end and it's quite annoying. Then get a grown-up email client which can hide text you have already read from you. The #1 best reason for bottom-quoting is simply that you can have a discussion. You can interlineate comments to different bits of the text of an email, and thus have a detailed, point-by-point discussion. This is not possible with top-posting. Then there are all the arguments about how most scripts, be they left-to-right or right-to-left, read from the top to the bottom of the page. I hate top-posting, but that aside, the ability to selectively quote is a major functional gain. Top-quoting offers no functional gain and throws away a feature that is vital to me. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 18:58:36 2013 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:58:36 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2013 1:51 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >>>> >>>> Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?) >>>> Something like this is what I use at work... >>> >>> Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty >>> like thunderbird. >>> Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. >> >> I use it all the time, with very heavy volume. I have no problems and >> no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software) > > > I must be unlucky :( I always wanted to use thunderbird, but it NEVER works with me. It always locks up, looses e-mails, creates all kinds of havoc :( > I miss Calypso :( I gave up on mail client apps years ago. I read two different mail boxes from four devices. Since I want it in sync I would have to be IMAP rather than pop, so the mail is already in the cloud. Once I ceded on that point, gmail was the best choice. It deals with top quoters well and still let's you post inline and trim From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 19:10:44 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:10:44 -0600 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What/who are these additional accounts trying to hide the stuff? So far I see: appliancealley (now known as "tvrsales2" which I find shady for any seller to create more than one ebay account) martinezana kaekae_b2011 Any others yet? You're keeping tabs on all the auctions right? Probably best to print them all out or save them to a pdf. - John On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Again, thanks to to eagle eyes of some faithful watchers out there, I've > been able to identify another eBay seller of my stolen archives: > > eBay seller ID "appliancealley" > http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html > > For those who have been suggesting professional legal counsel, you should > be happy to know that I am speaking with such tomorrow. Thank you for > your concerns. I'll let you know what they're able to offer to me. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > VintageTech > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always > simple. > From ryan at hack.net Fri Jan 25 19:24:08 2013 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:24:08 -0600 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <54EA74B8-C7D9-47F9-9F90-A39089CAB7EA@gmail.com> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> <54EA74B8-C7D9-47F9-9F90-A39089CAB7EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60DEA26B-947E-452B-9CAC-EB1111E5A03F@hack.net> On Jan 25, 2013, at 5:45 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 25, 2013, at 5:26 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port it to amd64. > > For the market it's generally aimed at, IA64 is a great > architecture now that the compilers have matured somewhat. > Poulson looks quite competitive, actually. If they want > more *mainstream* acceptance, AMD64 isn't a bad choice, > but it doesn't look like that's where they want to go > (and indeed, not where they make most of their money on > VMS or HP-UX). > > > - Dave IA64, yeah- hitch your wagon to that. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 25 19:26:42 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:26:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2013, MG wrote: > >> On 25-jan-2013 22:05, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 01/25/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: >>>> It sure is a shame how HP allows VMS to die such a dishonorable >>>> death. I don't think I've ever used a nicer operating system >>>> than VMS, even with the very measly software library as it is >>>> today... >>> >>> Sure looks like it's still under development to me.. >> >> I once thought the same... >> >> (Did you see the transcript that Stephen Hoffman posted from that >> presentation/seminar at HP Discover 2012, from a few months ago, >> on comp.os.vms?) > > If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port it to amd64. I would just _drool_ over that. *wistful sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 25 19:34:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:34:20 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 07:58 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > I gave up on mail client apps years ago. I read two different mail boxes > from four devices. Since I want it in sync I would have to be IMAP rather > than pop, so the mail is already in the cloud. > > Once I ceded on that point, gmail was the best choice. It deals with top > quoters well and still let's you post inline and trim Wow. I do not follow that logic AT ALL. But that's ok. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 20:02:44 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 02:02:44 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 26 January 2013 01:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Wow. > > I do not follow that logic AT ALL. > > But that's ok. I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same. I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so? I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3 accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms on a regular basis: Symbian Android iOS Mac OS X Windows XP Windows Vista Windows 7 Linux, various distros I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some online, some offline. Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted, single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? If I do use webmail, it is a considerable advantage if there is an optimised local client for it on my lower-end or small-screen devices. Gmail provides this too, FOC. If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 25 20:16:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:16:55 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Wow. >> >> I do not follow that logic AT ALL. >> >> But that's ok. > > I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same. > > I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so > since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so? > > I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3 > accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering > followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a > web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary > email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that > time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms > on a regular basis: > > Symbian > Android > iOS > Mac OS X > Windows XP > Windows Vista > Windows 7 > Linux, various distros > > I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some > online, some offline. > > Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted, > single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? ... > If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested. Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you honestly suggesting that either: 1) I don't actually do this, 2) This is not "credible", or 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail program? Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens and I'm somehow without any of those devices. I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP, and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC) POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past about 1995. Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you continue to use POP3. But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great. I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From go at aerodesic.com Fri Jan 25 20:39:12 2013 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:39:12 -0800 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510341D0.3020402@aerodesic.com> On 01/25/2013 05:10 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > What/who are these additional accounts trying to hide the stuff? So far I > see: > appliancealley (now known as "tvrsales2" which I find shady for any seller > to create more than one ebay account) > martinezana > kaekae_b2011 > > Any others yet? You're keeping tabs on all the auctions right? Probably > best to print them all out or save them to a pdf. > > - John > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> Again, thanks to to eagle eyes of some faithful watchers out there, I've >> been able to identify another eBay seller of my stolen archives: >> >> eBay seller ID "appliancealley" >> http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html >> >> For those who have been suggesting professional legal counsel, you should >> be happy to know that I am speaking with such tomorrow. Thank you for >> your concerns. I'll let you know what they're able to offer to me. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail >> VintageTech >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintagetech.com >> >> Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always >> simple. >> My eBay 'watch list' is getting full of Sellam's stuff :-( Things I would love to have but won't touch under the current circumstances are flying by every day. And I know many of the items would (should) fetch much more than they seem to be getting... It's very sad this is happening... I've seen several important items I *know* must be one-of's that should be conserved. You have my sincerest sympathy. -Gary From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:04:12 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:04:12 -0600 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what happens if people outside the us buys ur stuff? On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Again, thanks to to eagle eyes of some faithful watchers out there, I've > been able to identify another eBay seller of my stolen archives: > > eBay seller ID "appliancealley" > http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html > > For those who have been suggesting professional legal counsel, you should > be happy to know that I am speaking with such tomorrow. Thank you for > your concerns. I'll let you know what they're able to offer to me. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > VintageTech > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always > simple. > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:21:40 2013 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:21:40 -0700 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) Message-ID: More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last time around. As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some freebies. Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. -tom tcp1022 AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 DEC Pro 350 251219291641 DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 AT&T 6300 251219453567 DEC TU-58 251219297427 SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 PDP 11/04 251219325467 ADM3A 251219433952 From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:32:42 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:32:42 -0800 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51034E5A.50106@gmail.com> On 1/25/2013 7:04 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what happens if people outside the us buys ur stuff? > > Same thing that happens here. Pretty much nothing but, bad karma. Those things sold on ebay are not going to be recovered. He can only keep track of the sale prices and try and get it back from tvrsales. He's also going to need to prove the items were his. So, much stuff I would wonder if he had all the serial numbers even recorded. He's going to have to prove every item was his. It may be hard in a collection that size. I maybe have 15 computers in my collection and I don't have a single serial number recorded or way to prove they were mine really. I suspect Sellam may just be out of luck on this. It's sad tale but, may cautionary for other big collectors. On the flip side of this whole nightmare they aren't going to scrappers but, people that obviously value them highly. In a way it may be a better fate then living under 100 other computers on a pallet in Stockton. Still it sucks for Sellam. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jan 25 22:33:08 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:33:08 -0500 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: <510341D0.3020402@aerodesic.com> References: <510341D0.3020402@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: <51035C84.1080008@verizon.net> On 1/25/2013 9:39 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: > My eBay 'watch list' is getting full of Sellam's stuff :-( Things I > would love to have but won't touch under the current circumstances > are flying by every day. > > And I know many of the items would (should) fetch much more than > they seem to be getting... It's very sad this is happening... I've > seen several important items I *know* must be one-of's that should > be conserved. Gary, I'm not really directing this at you, but maybe the group in general..... Wouldn't someone in the community purchasing these items at least keep them in trusted hands? I mean, what's really the alternative? Also, I apologize for the double negative but doesn't the fact that some/most/all of the community isn't bidding on the stuff artificially deflating the price? I mean, isn't it selling for less because other normally-interested bidders aren't bidding? And sure, I understand that the idea might be to reduce the total take of the so-called-evil-reseller (not judging here, really) but then why be unhappy when you're successful? So then what happens? Someone who doesn't really care much about the items win them at a lower price? And then resell the item later at a profit. And instead of US profiting, we let someone else do it because it's blood money. But for how many generations is this item poisoned for? First resale is clearly bad(I guess). How about the second? The third? How do we even know if it's part of the evil collection? And while we are talking about this, why not talk about people buying foreclosed homes? Surely that is profiting off of other people's misfortune/loss? Repo'd cars? Lost items at airport auctions? Items at Pawn shops? This is unfortunate indeed. I just hope that not too many of these items end up leaving the community as a result of our own actions. Keith From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 23:14:22 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:14:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: <481C630F-19E7-4147-BE0D-8407B722A068@typewritten.org> References: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> <481C630F-19E7-4147-BE0D-8407B722A068@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <1359177262.96859.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: r.stricklin If the LCD supports an ECL monochrome video signal, and will sync to a 66 Hz vertical and 61.8 kHz horizontal... then, yes. I rate it as unlikely you'll find an LCD that does, though. C: I don't know why this would be the case. Whether LCD or CRT, these units multiscan. I can't imagine any monitor these days not syncing to 64 khz or thereabouts, and even base VGA modes have vertical scan rates of 70hz (remembers Chuck using a vga monitor w/his AT&T 6300). ?Some LCD's are a alot more versatile then you'd think. Earlier ones are compatible w/EGA even (though it isn't the case here). I had a list of funky off the beaten path chinese models that readily worked w/EGA or equivalent video. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 23:52:18 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:52:18 -0800 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: <1359177262.96859.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> <481C630F-19E7-4147-BE0D-8407B722A068@typewritten.org> <1359177262.96859.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51036F12.7090406@gmail.com> On 1/25/2013 9:14 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: r.stricklin > > > If the LCD supports an ECL monochrome video signal, and will sync to a 66 Hz vertical and 61.8 kHz horizontal... then, yes. > > I rate it as unlikely you'll find an LCD that does, though. > > The man known only as "C:" wrote: >> I don't know why this would be the case. Whether LCD or CRT, these units multiscan. I can't imagine any monitor these days not syncing to 64 khz or thereabouts, and even base VGA modes have vertical scan rates of 70hz (remembers Chuck using a vga monitor w/his AT&T 6300). >> >> Some LCD's are a alot more versatile then you'd think. Earlier ones are compatible w/EGA even (though it isn't the case here). I had a list of funky off the beaten path chinese models that readily worked w/EGA or equivalent video. > (Quoting fixed above since it annoys the heck out of me) The operative phrase here is "ECL monochrome video signal," I think... - Josh From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jan 26 00:35:07 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 22:35:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: <51036F12.7090406@gmail.com> References: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> <481C630F-19E7-4147-BE0D-8407B722A068@typewritten.org> <1359177262.96859.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51036F12.7090406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1359182107.65794.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Josh Dersch The operative phrase here is "ECL monochrome video signal," I think... - Josh C: I'm looking at this thread: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/archive/index.php/t-19233.html If I had previously known about this phenomena, I forgot all about it. Why is there a variation in the video signal? Is this comparable to the analog video which varies infinitely to account for many colors/shades? My battery is dying, and I'm tired. No more time to research tonight. ? ?I'm curious because I have an old HP color behemoth that a super-tech was unable to get to display anything he threw at it. Now it's a long shot, I doubt it's an ECL monitor (I just doubt it). Just want to learn something though. Stinks being in the dark. From shutchman at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 12:13:05 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:13:05 -0500 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> References: <5102BDE7.3030108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: any idea if it is possible to use an LCD monitor? On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/25/13 8:41 AM, Hutch wrote: > >> I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were >> attached to a SUN 3/140 station. >> > > I believe it is EGA monochrome. >> > > Nope. MUCH higher resolution/horz sweep rate than EGA (1152 x 900) > > Common failure mode is the high voltage supply. > > > > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jan 25 13:35:54 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:35:54 -0800 Subject: Top Posting, --> Thunderbiird portable and otherwise In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5102DE9A.3000009@jwsss.com> On 1/25/2013 10:25 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> Mozilla Thunderbird Portable running on a USB stick? :?) >>>> Something like this is what I use at work... >>> Say what you want, but I never found something so buggy and shitty >>> like thunderbird. >>> Ok, everyone uses, I never got it to work. >> I use it all the time, with very heavy volume. I have no problems and >> no complaints. (and I have ZERO patience for bad software) > > I must be unlucky :( I always wanted to use thunderbird, but it > NEVER works with me. It always locks up, looses e-mails, creates all > kinds of havoc :( > > I miss Calypso :( > I have used thunderbird since it was broken out from Mozilla. Used pine on a remote shell account before that. I don't recall the origin, but I think it started out as part of netscape before the fork. Anyway it has now been downgraded from being supported by the Mozilla foundation if I heard right, so wonder how long before it goes by the wayside. JIm From shutchman at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 14:33:59 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:33:59 -0500 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have got some ideas. I bought one of these for about $30, it will arrive next week SainSmart GBS-8220 RGB/CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA Arcade HD Video Converter BoardI will add an ECL to TTL converter circuit in between the SUN ECL frame buffer output (501-1419- MG1 bwtwo with D type connector) and this Video converter board which outputs to the VGA monitor. I will let you know if it works. Also may be possible to change the frame buffer card to something other than ECL. On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Hutch wrote: > > I have been through 3 CRT monitors that died ( circa 1989) that were > > attached to a SUN 3/140 station. The monitors are SUN Model M19P114 part > > no 365-1051-01. > > The pin out on the 3/140 is > > > > 1-VIDEO+ > > 2-GND > > 3-HSYNC > > 4-VSYNC > > 5-NC > > 6-VIDEO- > > 7 GND > > 8-GND > > 9-GND > > > > VIDEO+ and VIDEO- are ECL levels , and HSYNC and VSYNC are TTL levels. > > > > I believe it is EGA monochrome. I am not sure if this SUN has non > standard > > ( proprietary) output for video. Is there anyone that knows a way to > > connect this SUN to a standard LCD VGA monitor using some kind of video > > converter or by using a multi-sync monitor ? > > > > Hutch > > Further info. No idea how to hook this up to a more modern monitor. > > http://www.sun3arc.org/FAQ/sun.hardware.FAQ > > 501-1074 3004 "Carrera" CPU 2M (3/75,3/140,3/150,3/160,3/180) > > monochrome video: The onboard framebuffer is a bwtwo. > The video output levels are ECL/TTL, with a resolution > of 1152 x 900 at 61.8KHz horizontal sync and 66Hz > vertical sync. > From roe at liveblockauctions.com Fri Jan 25 14:34:26 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:34:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. In-Reply-To: References: <51014E3F.2090301@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <61652ED2-AFA7-48CD-A5EC-40A23A8578CF@liveblockauctions.com> Slots 3-8 are all standard MUD slots. If you don't have cache or FIS cards, this is a normal config for the DD11-PK backplane. I've checked it against the DEC technical manual for the box, and the Internet is a good thing, most of the old DEC docs are online. Thanks for trying, anyhow. It actually gets stranger. If I pull everything but the M9312, M7859, and console M7856 dl11, including the CPU boards, I can access 777560, see 000200 after hitting a key on the RS232 console, and CTRL/INIT still doesn't reset the dl11. On Jan 25, 2013, at 2:52 AM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > From: "Roe Peterson" > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:07 PM > To: > Subject: pdp11/34 strange problem indeed. > >> I'm restoring a pdp11/34a, and I've got a weird problem I'm hoping someone out there can help me with. >> The system seems to be working just fine, with one exception: bus reset just doesn't work. >> The unibus is configured correctly; I've verified that NPR is jumpered/granted correctly through the bus. This is a BA11-L box with the DD11-PK 9-slot backplane, configured like this: >> Slot 1 - CPU >> Slot 2 - CPU >> Slot 3 - A/B M9312 bootstrap/terminator, C/D/E/F M7859 front panel programmers interface controller >> Slot 4 - 128 Kword MOS memory >> Slot 5 - RL11 controller >> Slot 6 - C/D/E/F M7856 DL11-W console RS232 interface >> Slot 7 - C/D G7273 dual bus grant >> Slot 8 - C/D G7273 dual bus grant >> Slot 9 - A/B M9302 terminator, C/D/E/F M7856 DL11-W configured at 776500 for TU58 tape drive > > [... snip ...] > > I have not been actively busy with my 11/34C for quite some time, > but the first thing I noticed is the use of slot 3. I am not sure, but is > the 3rd slot not dedicated for FIS or CACHE? If you move all boards > (slot 4 to slot 6) up one slot, I'd put the G7273 from slot 7 into slot 3. > > - Henk, PA8PDP > >> -- >> Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development >> O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802 >> *Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100* From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 17:19:23 2013 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:19:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <30DEE7C6A125475D9C927607F7CAA586@tababook> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118743DEF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <1359155963.17385.YahooMailNeo@web140602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> When I joined HP in 1979 to work on the 1000 I was chastised for using "disk" rather than the HP approved term "disc" to refer to rotating magnetic media. I had come from an IBM mainframe (and DEC 20) background. So different vendors used different terms, at least as Rich says in the BUNCH days. ? Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Rich Alderson To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:56 AM Subject: RE: More division by a common language? (Was: Bad media (Was: From: Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 9:01 AM >>> Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? > DisC is for audio, DisK is for computers. > Since the Compact Disc is an AUDIO media, it is called DisC. When used > on Data, the name wasn't changed. > Apple has a different view on that, more reasonable: > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2300 > It says that DisC is for optical media and DisK is for magnetic (and > enclosured) media. Very reasonable. > Wikipedia says the same: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_disc > Quoting: "Generally in computer terminology, disk refers to magnetic > storage while disc refers to optical storage." > So, I stick with apple's (and wikipedia) idea, although wikipedia has > a better explanation about the subject. In the days of the 7 Dwarfs and the BUNCH, IBM, Univac, Burroughs, Honeywell, and CDC used "disk" for rotating platters covered with a magnetic medium, while GE, RCA and NCR used "disc".? (Verified by a look at Bitsavers, rather than the nits at Wikipedia.)? Memorex and CDC as the important OEM drive manufacturers both used "disk". Given the relative importance of the "disk" users in the history of the industry, it's likely that the later manufacturers used what the customer base was already used to. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From go at ao-cs.com Fri Jan 25 19:35:36 2013 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:35:36 -0800 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510332E8.5090909@ao-cs.com> On 01/25/2013 05:10 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > What/who are these additional accounts trying to hide the stuff? So far I > see: > appliancealley (now known as "tvrsales2" which I find shady for any seller > to create more than one ebay account) > martinezana > kaekae_b2011 > > Any others yet? You're keeping tabs on all the auctions right? Probably > best to print them all out or save them to a pdf. > > - John > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> Again, thanks to to eagle eyes of some faithful watchers out there, I've >> been able to identify another eBay seller of my stolen archives: >> >> eBay seller ID "appliancealley" >> http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html >> >> For those who have been suggesting professional legal counsel, you should >> be happy to know that I am speaking with such tomorrow. Thank you for >> your concerns. I'll let you know what they're able to offer to me. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail >> VintageTech >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintagetech.com >> >> Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always >> simple. >> My eBay 'watch list' is getting full of Sellam's stuff :-( Things I would love to have but won't touch under the current circumstances are flying by every day. And I know many of the items would (should) fetch much more than they seem to be getting... It's very sad this is happening... I've seen several important items I *know* must be one-of's that should be conserved. You have my sincerest sympathy. -Gary From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 03:42:00 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:42:00 +0000 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: <510332E8.5090909@ao-cs.com> References: <510332E8.5090909@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: <5103A4E8.9000008@gmail.com> On 26/01/2013 01:35, Gary Oliver wrote: > On 01/25/2013 05:10 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> What/who are these additional accounts trying to hide the stuff? So >> far I >> see: >> appliancealley (now known as "tvrsales2" which I find shady for any >> seller >> to create more than one ebay account) >> martinezana >> kaekae_b2011 >> >> Any others yet? You're keeping tabs on all the auctions right? Probably >> best to print them all out or save them to a pdf. >> >> - John >> >> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Sellam Ismail >> wrote: >> >>> Again, thanks to to eagle eyes of some faithful watchers out there, >>> I've >>> been able to identify another eBay seller of my stolen archives: >>> >>> eBay seller ID "appliancealley" >>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/appliancealley/m.html >>> >>> For those who have been suggesting professional legal counsel, you >>> should >>> be happy to know that I am speaking with such tomorrow. Thank you for >>> your concerns. I'll let you know what they're able to offer to me. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> VintageTech >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintagetech.com >>> >>> Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always >>> simple. >>> > My eBay 'watch list' is getting full of Sellam's stuff :-( Things I > would > love to have but won't touch under the current circumstances are > flying by every day. > > And I know many of the items would (should) fetch much more than > they seem to be getting... It's very sad this is happening... I've seen > several important items I *know* must be one-of's that should be > conserved. > > You have my sincerest sympathy. > > -Gary Tricky one this, not sure of legal position in USA, but if Sellam is only getting monetary value back it might be better for him if you bid and they go for a higher price. > From alan at alanlee.org Sat Jan 26 05:01:04 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 06:01:04 -0500 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: <51035C84.1080008@verizon.net> References: <510341D0.3020402@aerodesic.com> <51035C84.1080008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2992537B-1345-4B5D-8A82-C9E683522901@alanlee.org> Sellam is never going to get this collection restored. 'Possession is 9/10th' of the law is a sad reality. Even under a theft by receiving scenario, the products are being spread out to 100 different buyers in 100 different jurisdictions. He needed an injunction and he needed it two weeks ago. Even if he successfully makes a case in court that his land lord didn't give him sufficient notice of foreclosure under California and local law, he sill has to file suite against tvrsales for recovery; who btw has done nothing wrong - morally or legally. His grievance is against his former land lord. It's sad, but Keith does make good points. We can all oogle over what we think the collection is worth to a prime buyer or to Sellam. The reality is courts deal in current market value. Even winning against his land lord, the sale prices being offered up the past few weeks may form a basis for a financial judgement against his land lord or tvrsales since the jurisdictional issues are so big with buyers. A California circuit court cannot enforce a warrant on a buyer in Georgia. Even if issued, the Georgia jurisdiction will say, "we need to go recover a $40 what?" Not bidding only helps if the auction doesn't sell. Otherwise, it is only helping the people who are winning the items at lower prices. -Alan Sent from my iPad On Jan 25, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 1/25/2013 9:39 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: > >> My eBay 'watch list' is getting full of Sellam's stuff :-( Things I >> would love to have but won't touch under the current circumstances >> are flying by every day. >> >> And I know many of the items would (should) fetch much more than >> they seem to be getting... It's very sad this is happening... I've >> seen several important items I *know* must be one-of's that should >> be conserved. > > Gary, > > I'm not really directing this at you, but maybe the group in general..... > > Wouldn't someone in the community purchasing these items at least keep them in trusted hands? I mean, what's really the alternative? > > Also, I apologize for the double negative but doesn't the fact that some/most/all of the community isn't bidding on the stuff artificially deflating the price? I mean, isn't it selling for less because other normally-interested bidders aren't bidding? > > And sure, I understand that the idea might be to reduce the total take of the so-called-evil-reseller (not judging here, really) but then why be unhappy when you're successful? > > So then what happens? Someone who doesn't really care much about the items win them at a lower price? And then resell the item later at a profit. And instead of US profiting, we let someone else do it because it's blood money. > > But for how many generations is this item poisoned for? First resale is clearly bad(I guess). How about the second? The third? How do we even know if it's part of the evil collection? > > And while we are talking about this, why not talk about people buying foreclosed homes? Surely that is profiting off of other people's misfortune/loss? Repo'd cars? Lost items at airport auctions? Items at Pawn shops? > > This is unfortunate indeed. I just hope that not too many of these items end up leaving the community as a result of our own actions. > > Keith > From alan at alanlee.org Sat Jan 26 05:01:04 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 06:01:04 -0500 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: <51035C84.1080008@verizon.net> References: <510341D0.3020402@aerodesic.com> <51035C84.1080008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2992537B-1345-4B5D-8A82-C9E683522901@alanlee.org> Sellam is never going to get this collection restored. 'Possession is 9/10th' of the law is a sad reality. Even under a theft by receiving scenario, the products are being spread out to 100 different buyers in 100 different jurisdictions. He needed an injunction and he needed it two weeks ago. Even if he successfully makes a case in court that his land lord didn't give him sufficient notice of foreclosure under California and local law, he sill has to file suite against tvrsales for recovery; who btw has done nothing wrong - morally or legally. His grievance is against his former land lord. It's sad, but Keith does make good points. We can all oogle over what we think the collection is worth to a prime buyer or to Sellam. The reality is courts deal in current market value. Even winning against his land lord, the sale prices being offered up the past few weeks may form a basis for a financial judgement against his land lord or tvrsales since the jurisdictional issues are so big with buyers. A California circuit court cannot enforce a warrant on a buyer in Georgia. Even if issued, the Georgia jurisdiction will say, "we need to go recover a $40 what?" Not bidding only helps if the auction doesn't sell. Otherwise, it is only helping the people who are winning the items at lower prices. -Alan Sent from my iPad On Jan 25, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 1/25/2013 9:39 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: > >> My eBay 'watch list' is getting full of Sellam's stuff :-( Things I >> would love to have but won't touch under the current circumstances >> are flying by every day. >> >> And I know many of the items would (should) fetch much more than >> they seem to be getting... It's very sad this is happening... I've >> seen several important items I *know* must be one-of's that should >> be conserved. > > Gary, > > I'm not really directing this at you, but maybe the group in general..... > > Wouldn't someone in the community purchasing these items at least keep them in trusted hands? I mean, what's really the alternative? > > Also, I apologize for the double negative but doesn't the fact that some/most/all of the community isn't bidding on the stuff artificially deflating the price? I mean, isn't it selling for less because other normally-interested bidders aren't bidding? > > And sure, I understand that the idea might be to reduce the total take of the so-called-evil-reseller (not judging here, really) but then why be unhappy when you're successful? > > So then what happens? Someone who doesn't really care much about the items win them at a lower price? And then resell the item later at a profit. And instead of US profiting, we let someone else do it because it's blood money. > > But for how many generations is this item poisoned for? First resale is clearly bad(I guess). How about the second? The third? How do we even know if it's part of the evil collection? > > And while we are talking about this, why not talk about people buying foreclosed homes? Surely that is profiting off of other people's misfortune/loss? Repo'd cars? Lost items at airport auctions? Items at Pawn shops? > > This is unfortunate indeed. I just hope that not too many of these items end up leaving the community as a result of our own actions. > > Keith > From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 08:34:27 2013 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:34:27 -0500 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: <2992537B-1345-4B5D-8A82-C9E683522901@alanlee.org> References: <510341D0.3020402@aerodesic.com> <51035C84.1080008@verizon.net> <2992537B-1345-4B5D-8A82-C9E683522901@alanlee.org> Message-ID: I've tried to make the point that the community ought to be at least trying to buy a few of the important pieces in order to give them back to Sellam, but he (and others) have dissmissed that as rewarding the bad behavior of others so I haven't pushed it. It's sad to see this happen, but frankly a boycott only works if EVERYONE is doing it and clearly the inhabitants of cctalk don't count as everybody in this scenario. I guess the only positive thing is that the stuff DOES seem to be selling, so at least the stuff isn't going to be scrapped... Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 26 11:28:34 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:28:34 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, --> Thunderbiird portable and otherwise In-Reply-To: <5102DE9A.3000009@jwsss.com> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5102DE9A.3000009@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51041242.40509@neurotica.com> On 01/25/2013 02:35 PM, jim s wrote: > I have used thunderbird since it was broken out from Mozilla. Used pine > on a remote shell account before that. I don't recall the origin, but I > think it started out as part of netscape before the fork. > > Anyway it has now been downgraded from being supported by the Mozilla > foundation if I heard right, so wonder how long before it goes by the > wayside. Do you really think it will? It has a gigantic user base, and development is still happening at a pretty decent pace. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 11:59:55 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:59:55 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 26 January 2013 02:16, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Wow. >>> >>> I do not follow that logic AT ALL. >>> >>> But that's ok. >> >> I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same. >> >> I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so >> since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so? >> >> I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3 >> accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering >> followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a >> web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary >> email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that >> time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms >> on a regular basis: >> >> Symbian >> Android >> iOS >> Mac OS X >> Windows XP >> Windows Vista >> Windows 7 >> Linux, various distros >> >> I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some >> online, some offline. >> >> Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted, >> single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? > ... >> If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested. > > Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of > them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two > laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my > IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you > honestly suggesting that either: > > 1) I don't actually do this, > 2) This is not "credible", > > or > > 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail > program? > > Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also > hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens > and I'm somehow without any of those devices. > > I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail > client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of > them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP, > and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC) > > POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more > than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five > years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to > continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or > cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF > PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past > about 1995. > > Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things > specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you > continue to use POP3. > > But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If > webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great. > I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage. I am mystified. Who said anything about POP3? I am not talking about POP3. I don't know anyone who is. I am talking about email providers and UIs. I do not have "a computer". I have 3 main home computers, several "work" computers, a smartphone - usually just 1 at a time - and I also use other devices. On about 25-33% of the machines I use, I have no privileges to install software. One the ones I own, I do, but I run multiple OSs and change regularly, so local apps with local state are a nuisance, to be avoided if possible. My Gmail inbox has 124 folders in it alongside the standard ones like "Bin" and "Spam". I have more rules than folders to sort my incoming mail. How could I reproduce that sort of setup with local apps? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From tom94022 at comcast.net Sat Jan 26 12:38:02 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:38:02 -0800 Subject: disk vs. disc In-Reply-To: <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <42E323EAA5474C2C9EB2854502D87292@U260> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 9:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: disk vs. disc, was Re: More division by a common language? (Was: > Bad media (Was: > > On 01/25/2013 11:57 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> Why is a floppy "disk", but a CD-ROM "disc"? Except for us storage geeks, I suspect disc is the common US spelling. IBM started us with Disk as in "The 650 RAMAC and 305 RAMAC both utilize the magnetic disk memory device ..." [650 RAMAC announcement, 1956] I have a 1963 Datamation article describing "Random Access Storage Devices" using the term disc throughout, including its characterization of the then several IBM "Disc [sic] Storage" devices. To its end, I think Datamation transformed disk into disc in its copy (not its ads) Early on there was some concern that the terms "Disk Pack" and "Disk File" were trademarks of IBM. Memorex used Disc as does Seagate. CDC used Disk. IBM brought us "Diskette" for the 8-inch FD media, Pioneers like Memorex and Potter called it a "Disc Cartridge", but it was probably Century Data that brought us to the "Floppy Disk" and Shugart that established it as the defacto standard in the language. ANSI and other standards groups called them Flexible Disk Cartridges. "Compact Disc" et al are trademarks and to use or make compatible media you have to be licensed and had to follow the logo standard. Someone from Sony/Philips will have to say why they chose Disc instead of Disk. It may be just that they had to make a choice of one or the other. Tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 26 15:04:48 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 21:04:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: <1359182107.65794.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Jan 25, 13 10:35:07 pm Message-ID: > Why is there a variation in the video signal? Is this comparable to the ana= I may be telling you what you aready know, in which case I apologise. ECL = Emitter Coupled Logic. It's a type of logic circuitry (in the same way that DTL and TTL are types of logic circuitry). ECL generally uses a -ve supply rail (often -5.2V) and is higher speed that TTL, etc. The high speed feature is probably why it was used for this video signal. At the time, TTL logic was not fast enough, and generally could not drive long cables well at high (for TLT) speeds. ECL could. There were TTL <-> ECL inteface ICs (IIRC 10124 and 10125), bnt of course the speed they could rubn at was limited by the speed on the TTL side. You could probably use a 10125 to convert this video signal to TTL, but whether you could be able see individual pixels clearly I don't know. > log video which varies infinitely to account for many colors/shades? My bat= No, it's a 2-state digital signal. I asusme this is a 1-bit-per-pixel system, like a lot of earleir workstations. > tery is dying, and I'm tired. No more time to research tonight. =0A I've foudn that runnign computers form the mains helps with this :-) > =A0=0A= > =A0I'm curious because I have an old HP color behemoth that a super-tech wa= > s unable to get to display anything he threw at it. Now it's a long shot, I= I would be _very_ spuprised if a colour monitor had ECL inputs. On the other hand I have come across an analogue HP colour monitor (that on the HP9836C) where hte inputs are current, rather than voltage, driven. Do you know the model number of this HP moniotr? What is the input connector? Do you know if it works at all? The fact that it won't dispaly enything might be due to a fualt i nthe monitor. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 26 18:06:01 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 19:06:01 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51046F69.5050102@neurotica.com> On 01/26/2013 12:59 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 26 January 2013 02:16, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> Wow. >>>> >>>> I do not follow that logic AT ALL. >>>> >>>> But that's ok. >>> >>> I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same. >>> >>> I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so >>> since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so? >>> >>> I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3 >>> accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering >>> followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a >>> web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary >>> email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that >>> time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms >>> on a regular basis: >>> >>> Symbian >>> Android >>> iOS >>> Mac OS X >>> Windows XP >>> Windows Vista >>> Windows 7 >>> Linux, various distros >>> >>> I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some >>> online, some offline. >>> >>> Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted, >>> single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? >> ... >>> If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested. >> >> Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of >> them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two >> laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my >> IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you >> honestly suggesting that either: >> >> 1) I don't actually do this, >> 2) This is not "credible", >> >> or >> >> 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail >> program? >> >> Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also >> hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens >> and I'm somehow without any of those devices. >> >> I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail >> client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of >> them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP, >> and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC) >> >> POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more >> than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five >> years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to >> continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or >> cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF >> PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past >> about 1995. >> >> Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things >> specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you >> continue to use POP3. >> >> But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If >> webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great. >> I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage. > > I am mystified. Who said anything about POP3? I am not talking about > POP3. I don't know anyone who is. Uhh...I could've sworn you did. I was tired, my brain probably mismatched on something! I apologize for my error. But wait, above (which is why I didn't trim the huge volume of material above, sorry about that) you mention polling POP3 accounts. > I am talking about email providers and UIs. Gotcha. > I do not have "a computer". I have 3 main home computers, several > "work" computers, a smartphone - usually just 1 at a time - and I also > use other devices. On about 25-33% of the machines I use, I have no > privileges to install software. One the ones I own, I do, but I run > multiple OSs and change regularly, so local apps with local state are > a nuisance, to be avoided if possible. Ahh ok. Your situation is similar to mine, but different in some important ways. There are about twenty computers here that are running all the time, I may use different ones depending on what I'm doing and what area of the building I'm working in, and I have root access on all of them. I generally won't touch a computer that I don't have administrative access to. > My Gmail inbox has 124 folders in it alongside the standard ones like > "Bin" and "Spam". I have more rules than folders to sort my incoming > mail. That's a bunch. I have about 1/3 of that. But still, our usage pattern and volume seems pretty similar. The big difference is that you can't run what YOU want to run on those machines. > How could I reproduce that sort of setup with local apps? By using IMAP. Unless I'm missing something about your desired goal. I'm certain you're very familiar with IMAP and its capabilities, yes? (I'd be surprised if you weren't) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 18:14:51 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 00:14:51 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <51046F69.5050102@neurotica.com> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <51046F69.5050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 27 January 2013 00:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > By using IMAP. Unless I'm missing something about your desired goal. > I'm certain you're very familiar with IMAP and its capabilities, yes? > (I'd be surprised if you weren't) IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it couldn't do is the rules. I have, as I said, more rules than folders and some 130-odd folders. No problem with pointing multiple email client apps at a single IMAP server, sure, although sync times become an issue - my Gmail inbox is 7.3GB, for example. (I also have a few gig more of very old (1990s) mail offline that I want to put in there at some point as well.) But the rules-set is complex. Well, not complex, but big. I have moved messagebases around in Thunderbird before, no problem - after a few versions, it was even able to share one between Windows and Linux installs, a very handy feature indeed for me. But without having a single shared messagebase, gigs of it, I can't share my filtering rules and so on among different machines, can I? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 26 18:39:23 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 01:39:23 +0100 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <5102F3A5.4040800@neurotica.com> <510304F8.9070707@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5104773B.9050904@xs4all.nl> On 25-jan-2013 23:26, David Griffith wrote: > If HP seriously expects to keep VMS going, they should port > it to amd64. They should either way do that. I'd love to run VMS on my newly assembled 3.1 GHz quad-core Core i7 3770S mini-PC with 16 Gbytes DDR3 DC-RAM, fast SSD disk and so forth. It would sure be a nice break from hearing the rather noisy rx2620 all the time. - MG From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 18:41:02 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:41:02 -0600 Subject: Iomega "autodetect" cable internals Message-ID: <5104779E.4090700@gmail.com> Has anyone dissected one of the blue Iomega 25-way cables that are marked "AutoDetect" at the female connector end? I've got one in the junk pile and on a meter it checks out as though it's wired with a 1:1 pin mapping, but I assume the "AutoDetect" label means that it has some kind of smarts embedded into one end or the other (or both) which only work their magic under certain conditions. I'm on the hunt for a DB25 male connector and bit of multi-way cable so I can wire up a null modem cable for the QX-10 [1] - if it's all at the female end then that's good because I'd be lopping that end off anyway... [1] which has a DB25 female RS232 port, and of course the only gender-changers I have here are DE9s, no DB25's... :-) cheers Jules From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Jan 26 21:36:14 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 22:36:14 -0500 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <20130125232230.GA9402@dbit.dbit.com> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> <20130125112142.K97781@shell.lmi.net> <20130125232230.GA9402@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5104A0AE.3010604@compsys.to> >On Friday, January 25th, 29013 at 6:22:30 PM - 0500, John Wilson wrote: >>On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:43:49AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>What "SS/DS bit"? >> >Whatever your system has to read the the "TWO SIDED" signal (which is pin 10 >on some 8" drives). That's how the drive tells you which of the two possible >photocells is seeing index[/sector] pulses. Great idea, not always usefully >implemented, and missing on minifloppies. > I just looked up the dates on the modifications made by DSD to the DY(X).SYS device drivers in RT-11. The files on the 8" floppy disk supplied with the documentation for the DSD 880/30 range from November 10, 198 to September 21, 1982. The bit in the CSR has the symbol defined as: DBSID2 = 2 The DEC RX02 does not make this bit available in the CSR since there is no second side. However, the file DY.MAC from the V04.00 binary distribution in 1980 contains at least some of the code that would be needed to support an RX03 DSDD drive. It does not look as if that code was ever properly tested since I remember noticing at least one mistake when I enhanced the DY(X).SYS device driver code supplied with V05.00 binary distributions to support the RX03 8" floppy drive on the DSD 880/30 that I had modified with the DPDT switch I made mention of in an earlier post. Fred, does that clarify the "SS/DS bit" reference? Up until 1985, the DEC PDP-11 had hardware and software which far surpassed any PC hardware and software. Of course, it was also much more expensive, probably overpriced and the volume relatively low, to some extent the direct result of the high cost. Jerome Fine From wilson at dbit.com Sat Jan 26 22:06:38 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 23:06:38 -0500 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <5104A0AE.3010604@compsys.to> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> <20130125112142.K97781@shell.lmi.net> <20130125232230.GA9402@dbit.dbit.com> <5104A0AE.3010604@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130127040638.GA23549@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:36:14PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >However, the file DY.MAC from the V04.00 >binary distribution in 1980 contains at least some of the code that would >be needed to support an RX03 DSDD drive. It does not look as if that >code was ever properly tested since I remember noticing at least one >mistake [...] What's the bug in DY.SYS? Ersatz-11 has had RX03 support for eons ("mount dy0: foo.dsk /ds"), which was written based on that DY.MAC from V04.00 (since there was never any real DEC RX03), and seems to work OK with that driver (built with DS support enabled). John Wilson D Bit From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 22:19:51 2013 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:19:51 +1100 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5104aaee.c9e7440a.403d.fffff7a8@mx.google.com> Ditto - I despise bottom posting. You have to wade through reams of "stuff" to find (often) only a line or two newly posted. Lance -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013 5:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Top Posting Me too. Especially when the thread is long. ;-) Takes a while sometimes to get to the "new" content. I happen to have an email reader that "hides" all of the replied to messages (unless there's been editing) so I only see the new content. TTFN - Guy On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > I hate bottom posting... > > I want to read what the person wrote, not what others wrote just to get to the point. > > Some people are nice enough to edit and format, but too many people just add their content at the end and it's quite annoying. > From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sat Jan 26 22:50:30 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 21:50:30 -0700 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore. :) In-Reply-To: <5104A0AE.3010604@compsys.to> References: <51022BFB.1050507@landcomp.net> <20130125080103.GA336@dbit.dbit.com> <51029FE2.2070200@compsys.to> <20130125085729.X95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102D44E.3090804@compsys.to> <20130125112142.K97781@shell.lmi.net> <20130125232230.GA9402@dbit.dbit.com> <5104A0AE.3010604@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5104B216.8040204@landcomp.net> On 1/26/13 8:36 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >On Friday, January 25th, 29013 at 6:22:30 PM - 0500, John Wilson wrote: > >>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:43:49AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >>> What "SS/DS bit"? >>> >> Whatever your system has to read the the "TWO SIDED" signal (which is pin 10 >> on some 8" drives). That's how the drive tells you which of the two possible >> photocells is seeing index[/sector] pulses. Great idea, not always usefully >> implemented, and missing on minifloppies. >> > I just looked up the dates on the modifications made by DSD to the > DY(X).SYS device drivers in RT-11. The files on the 8" floppy > disk supplied with the documentation for the DSD 880/30 range > from November 10, 198 to September 21, 1982. The bit in the CSR > has the symbol defined as: > > DBSID2 = 2 > > The DEC RX02 does not make this bit available in the CSR since > there is no second side. However, the file DY.MAC from the V04.00 > binary distribution in 1980 contains at least some of the code that would > be needed to support an RX03 DSDD drive. It does not look as if that > code was ever properly tested since I remember noticing at least one > mistake when I enhanced the DY(X).SYS device driver code supplied > with V05.00 binary distributions to support the RX03 8" floppy drive > on the DSD 880/30 that I had modified with the DPDT switch I made > mention of in an earlier post. > > Fred, does that clarify the "SS/DS bit" reference? > > Up until 1985, the DEC PDP-11 had hardware and software which > far surpassed any PC hardware and software. Of course, it was also > much more expensive, probably overpriced and the volume relatively > low, to some extent the direct result of the high cost. > > Jerome Fine It seems the Xerox 820 was pretty pricey too at the time. With the configuration I have, (DSDD floppy drive and 10 mb. hard drive), it was around $9200.00 with the stock software package and all the hard copy documentation. Pretty steep for a desktop machine even then. :-) Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > > > From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sun Jan 27 00:10:13 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 23:10:13 -0700 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore (update) Message-ID: <5104C4C5.3000203@landcomp.net> Just a quick update to let you guys know I finally got Kermit80 up and running. Found MLOAD.COM and got it transferred over and used it to link the kermit hex file and the Xerox 820 overlay. Played with it a bit last night and hooked an old Hayes 14400 modem up to the comm port and although I can set the command string(s) for the modem, it doesn't hand control back to the terminal after it connects (was trying to get it to connect to an old 80286 that has my TRI-BBS software on it) I'll probably have to stick with transferring stuff back and forth with Tera-term or something similar. There's kind of a grey area with Kermit on just how much control it has over the machine's comm port (varies from one machine to another), so maybe I'm trying to run data through it faster than what the port will allow. I need to get with Chuck Guzis at some point and get a license for 22disk, just not right this minute, until I get this months bills caught up. :P Thank you Chuck, and everyone else for your help. Dave Land Land Computer Service From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jan 26 03:13:46 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:13:46 -0800 Subject: Another seller of my stolen property located In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51039E4A.8040306@jwsss.com> On 1/25/2013 7:04 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what happens if people outside the us buys ur stuff? I suspect it is all gone either way. but if you are asking whether you should buy it, I hope you won't, unless you are doing it to hold till he can retrieve it. would have done so, but am steering well clear of the mess, he will probably have to rope in people who have good intentions along with some who don't have and will be forced to if he wants to get stuff back from those sold to by the bad guys and that isn't something I can afford right now. Hope for the best, but can't help much with my current circumstances. US law probably won't reach outside the borders is the short answer for any reasonable amount of money if at all. From amh at POBOX.COM Sat Jan 26 08:02:33 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:02:33 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <2D722D43-3451-4AFD-AD6A-7788B0B0F5AF@gmail.com> References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <2D722D43-3451-4AFD-AD6A-7788B0B0F5AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 6:16 PM, David Riley wrote: > wouldn't go. I just wish I could run it on modern hardware > that didn't cost an arm and a leg; I like the idea of Itanium, > and Poulson looks like it's the first generation that > could compete in the semi-mainstream, but even very > used Tukwila and Montecito models sell for over $1000. They certainly can, although I've seen Integrity rx2620s (for example) well under the $1k mark on EBay. In fact, there's one right now for $325 + $45 shipping (I have no connection to seller). Like another poster mentioned, I too have been contemplating picking up some cheap Integrity hardware and a shared disk array for playing around with a VMS/I64 cluster, so I've been watching the prices off and on for a little while. -Andy From roe at liveblockauctions.com Sat Jan 26 08:58:59 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 08:58:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> It's a real pity you won't ship to Canada. I'd take the 11/04, rx02s, and the tu-58. I've already got an 11/34a, this would make a great addition to my collection. On Jan 26, 2013, at 3:23 AM, Tom publix wrote: > More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last time around. > > As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some freebies. > > Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. > > -tom > > tcp1022 > > AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 > DEC Pro 350 251219291641 > DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 > DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 > DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 > HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 > AT&T 6300 251219453567 > DEC TU-58 251219297427 > SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 > PDP 11/04 251219325467 > ADM3A 251219433952 From gerardcjat at free.fr Sat Jan 26 13:39:04 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:39:04 +0100 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) References: Message-ID: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> > > It's a real pity you won't ship to Canada. I'd take the 11/04, rx02s, > > and the tu-58. I've already got an 11/34a, this would make a great > > addition to my collection. > > On Jan 26, 2013, at 3:23 AM, Tom publix wrote: > >> More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last time >> around. >> >> As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some >> freebies. >> >> Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. >> >> -tom >> >> tcp1022 >> >> AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 >> DEC Pro 350 251219291641 >> DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 >> DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 >> DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 >> HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 >> AT&T 6300 251219453567 >> DEC TU-58 251219297427 >> SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 >> PDP 11/04 251219325467 >> ADM3A 251219433952 > HOW comes that theses items CANNOT EVEN be seen from abroad ?? >From France, to be specific. Is that normal / usual ?? From Gerard.bg.Timbert at free.fr Sat Jan 26 13:43:20 2013 From: Gerard.bg.Timbert at free.fr (Gerard.bg.Timbert) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:43:20 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 9000 Magnetic Reel to Reel 9 Track Tape Drives ( x2 ) FOR SALE Message-ID: <5E996044C02847C5B7EAFFB410FF94AB@medion> Interested, anyone ?? Not affiliated with seller. $200 for TWO units. http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400398859982&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:FR:1123 From shutchman at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 15:44:06 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 15:44:06 -0600 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: <1359182107.65794.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am the originator of the thread, I have some ECL -> TTL chips, when my arcade converter is delivered, I will connect the chip and let you know the results. my monitor is monochrome. The monitors are SUN Model M19P114 part no 365-1051-01. The pin out on the 3/140 frame buffer is 1-VIDEO+ 2-GND 3-HSYNC 4-VSYNC 5-NC 6-VIDEO- 7 GND 8-GND 9-GND VIDEO+ and VIDEO- are ECL levels , and HSYNC and VSYNC are TTL levels. On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Why is there a variation in the video signal? Is this comparable to the > ana= > > I may be telling you what you aready know, in which case I apologise. > > ECL = Emitter Coupled Logic. It's a type of logic circuitry (in the same > way that DTL and TTL are types of logic circuitry). ECL generally uses a > -ve supply rail (often -5.2V) and is higher speed that TTL, etc. > > The high speed feature is probably why it was used for this video signal. > At the time, TTL logic was not fast enough, and generally could not drive > long cables well at high (for TLT) speeds. ECL could. > > There were TTL <-> ECL inteface ICs (IIRC 10124 and 10125), bnt of course > the speed they could rubn at was limited by the speed on the TTL side. > You could probably use a 10125 to convert this video signal to TTL, but > whether you could be able see individual pixels clearly I don't know. > > > log video which varies infinitely to account for many colors/shades? My > bat= > > No, it's a 2-state digital signal. I asusme this is a 1-bit-per-pixel > system, like a lot of earleir workstations. > > > tery is dying, and I'm tired. No more time to research tonight. =0A > > I've foudn that runnign computers form the mains helps with this :-) > > > > > > =A0=0A= > > =A0I'm curious because I have an old HP color behemoth that a super-tech > wa= > > s unable to get to display anything he threw at it. Now it's a long > shot, I= > > I would be _very_ spuprised if a colour monitor had ECL inputs. On the > other hand I have come across an analogue HP colour monitor (that on the > HP9836C) where hte inputs are current, rather than voltage, driven. > > Do you know the model number of this HP moniotr? What is the input > connector? > Do you know if it works at all? The fact that it won't dispaly enything > might be due to a fualt i nthe monitor. > > -tony > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 04:03:45 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:03:45 +0000 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> Message-ID: <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> On 26/01/2013 19:39, GerardCJAT wrote: > >> > It's a real pity you won't ship to Canada. I'd take the 11/04, >> rx02s, > and the tu-58. I've already got an 11/34a, this would make >> a great > addition to my collection. >> >> On Jan 26, 2013, at 3:23 AM, Tom publix >> wrote: >> >>> More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last >>> time around. >>> >>> As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some >>> freebies. >>> >>> Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. >>> >>> -tom >>> >>> tcp1022 >>> >>> AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 >>> DEC Pro 350 251219291641 >>> DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 >>> DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 >>> DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 >>> HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 >>> AT&T 6300 251219453567 >>> DEC TU-58 251219297427 >>> SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 >>> PDP 11/04 251219325467 >>> ADM3A 251219433952 >> > > HOW comes that theses items CANNOT EVEN be seen from abroad ?? > > From France, to be specific. > > Is that normal / usual ?? I don't think so, unless its some French government paranoia. OK in England.... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251219433952 Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 27 04:07:55 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:07:55 -0000 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> Message-ID: <015201cdfc76$338e59c0$9aab0d40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of GerardCJAT > Sent: 26 January 2013 19:39 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) > > > > > It's a real pity you won't ship to Canada. I'd take the 11/04, > > > rx02s, and the tu-58. I've already got an 11/34a, this would make a > > > great addition to my collection. > > > > On Jan 26, 2013, at 3:23 AM, Tom publix > wrote: > > > >> More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last > >> time around. > >> > >> As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some > >> freebies. > >> > >> Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. > >> > >> -tom > >> > >> tcp1022 > >> > >> AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 > >> DEC Pro 350 251219291641 > >> DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 > >> DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 > >> DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 > >> HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 > >> AT&T 6300 251219453567 > >> DEC TU-58 251219297427 > >> SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 > >> PDP 11/04 251219325467 > >> ADM3A 251219433952 > > > > HOW comes that theses items CANNOT EVEN be seen from abroad ?? > > From France, to be specific. > > Is that normal / usual ?? I was able to see them from the UK. Regards Rob From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 27 05:37:15 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:37:15 +0100 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: <76A66E26-24D2-4996-8EE1-E1488499CE8C@gmail.com> <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> <2D722D43-3451-4AFD-AD6A-7788B0B0F5AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5105116B.1060109@xs4all.nl> On 26-jan-2013 15:02, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > Like another poster mentioned, I too have been contemplating picking > up some cheap Integrity hardware and a shared disk array for playing > around with a VMS/I64 cluster, so I've been watching the prices off > and on for a little while. Where are you located? I have a dual "Montecito" (dual-core, HT, VT-x, etc.) HP rx2620, with 24 Gbytes RAM (can lower it to, say, 8 Gbytes), PCI-X card cage (or additionally/alternatively, an AGP + PCI-X card cage), N+1 redundant power (dual PSUs) and many PCI-X options, incl. various (mostly LSI 1030T dual-channel Ultra320 and Ultra160 SCSI LVD/SE RAID and non-RAID HBAs, GbE and 10GbE NICs, Radeon 7500 AGO and PCI cards, etc.). It's located in Europe, the Netherlands more specifically. - MG From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 05:47:50 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 11:47:50 +0000 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: <5104aaee.c9e7440a.403d.fffff7a8@mx.google.com> References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5104aaee.c9e7440a.403d.fffff7a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 27 January 2013 04:19, Lance Lyon wrote: > Ditto - I despise bottom posting. You have to wade through reams of "stuff" > to find (often) only a line or two newly posted. You are sending from Gmail. Gmail automatically hides all text that you have read before. There is nothing to "wade through". -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 06:37:53 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:37:53 +0000 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27 January 2013 10:03, Dave wrote: > > I don't think so, unless its some French government paranoia. OK in > England.... > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251219433952 Ditto. And a very interesting read it was too, as it led to me looking up Lera-Siegler, discovering that this particular model of terminal has its own Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A ... and that this is the device responsible for a number of Unix keystrokes and shortcuts still in use to this day, including HJKL for cursor movement in Vi and a thousand other programs, ~ meaning "Home" and more besides. Quite remarkably educational. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 27 08:13:52 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 09:13:52 -0500 Subject: FW: lost emails on SCSI to IDE/SD converter project References: <20130126133514.1321cca37f09b4ab87c5049afdc8ceaa.353a859b28.wbe@email09.secureserver.net> <7EC0A4B0-E759-4540-83CC-B42EC9502847@mac.com> <02690170-BF1C-46B8-9AD2-350A6B4C7147@mac.com> Message-ID: <00f701cdfc98$9877a9a0$c966fce0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi I've started a new N8VEM mailing list to discuss the SASI or SCSI-1 to IDE and SD bridge board project. The purpose of the mailing list is to discuss the design, build, and test of the N8VEM SASI or SCSI-1 to IDE and SD bridge board. It is a completely free and open source development to benefit all vintage, hobbyist, classic, and home brew computer enthusiasts. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem-s2i Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 27 09:33:41 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:33:41 -0500 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/01/13 7:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 January 2013 10:03, Dave wrote: >> >> I don't think so, unless its some French government paranoia. OK in >> England.... >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251219433952 > > Ditto. And a very interesting read it was too, as it led to me looking > up Lera-Siegler, discovering that this particular model of terminal > has its own Wikipedia page: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A > > ... and that this is the device responsible for a number of Unix > keystrokes and shortcuts still in use to this day, including HJKL for > cursor movement in Vi and a thousand other programs, ~ meaning "Home" > and more besides. Quite remarkably educational. IIRC its escape codes were also the basis of those used by Televideo and probably others. I actually used an ADM-3A around 1981, hooked to a CP/M system, and my high school's computer lab had a Televideo TV950 and a VISUAL 200 that were used through the 1980s (during which decade other equipment was added!) --Toby > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 10:06:21 2013 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 09:06:21 -0700 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> References: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: Hi Roe, While my Ebay profile says I don't ship to Canada. I do. I just quoted Toby Thain and approximate UPS rate to Toronto at around $80 (from Arizona)for the ADM3a I don't like to advertise the fact that I'll ship to Canada in that Ebay does not give a good representation of Intl shipping charges, causing many former bidders for my stuff from Canada to back out after getting the real shipping charges. You can go to UPS and calculate the shipping charges using 110 lbs for the 11/04, 60 lbs for the RX02 and 15 lbs for the TU-58. I'm not sure if ebay will allow you to bid unless I "unblock" Canada, but I will do so if there are serious bidders from Canada and know how much the shipping will be. Hope this helps! _cheers tom P. On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Roe Peterson wrote: > It's a real pity you won't ship to Canada. I'd take the 11/04, rx02s, and the tu-58. I've already got an 11/34a, this would make a great addition to my collection. > > On Jan 26, 2013, at 3:23 AM, Tom publix wrote: > >> More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last time around. >> >> As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some freebies. >> >> Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. >> >> -tom >> >> tcp1022 >> >> AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 >> DEC Pro 350 251219291641 >> DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 >> DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 >> DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 >> HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 >> AT&T 6300 251219453567 >> DEC TU-58 251219297427 >> SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 >> PDP 11/04 251219325467 >> ADM3A 251219433952 > From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 04:30:01 2013 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:30:01 +1300 Subject: Don't need Kermit anymore (update) In-Reply-To: <5104C4C5.3000203@landcomp.net> References: <5104C4C5.3000203@landcomp.net> Message-ID: Probably no help for the Xerox 820 but I have just been through the exercise to get Generic CP/M 2.2 Kermit to work with Grant Searle's 9 chip Z80 machine (http://searle.hostei.com/grant/cpm/index.html). It was an interesting experience. After some digging to understand what Generic Kermit requires (written up here http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/home/69-z80part4) and working with Grant on some BIOS changes to fully support IOBYTE, Kermit is working really well. At 115200 baud and with command line Kermit running on my Macbook, bulk file transfers are a breeze. On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 7:10 PM, Dave Land wrote: > Just a quick update to let you guys know I finally got Kermit80 up > and running. Found MLOAD.COM and got it transferred over and used it > to link the kermit hex file and the Xerox 820 overlay. Played with it > a bit last night and hooked an old Hayes 14400 modem up to the comm > port and although I can set the command string(s) for the modem, it > doesn't hand control back to the terminal after it connects (was trying > to get it to connect to an old 80286 that has my TRI-BBS software on it) > > I'll probably have to stick with transferring stuff back and forth with > Tera-term or something similar. There's kind of a grey area with Kermit > on just how much control it has over the machine's comm port (varies from > one machine to another), so maybe I'm trying to run data through it > faster than what the port will allow. > > I need to get with Chuck Guzis at some point and get a license for 22disk, > just not right this minute, until I get this months bills caught up. :P > Thank you Chuck, and everyone else for your help. > > Dave Land > Land Computer Service > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 10:59:42 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 08:59:42 -0800 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <51055CFE.1000906@gmail.com> On 1/27/2013 8:06 AM, Tom publix wrote: > You can go to UPS and calculate the shipping charges using 110 lbs for > the 11/04, 60 lbs for the RX02 and 15 lbs for the TU-58. > Careful using UPS or FedEx to Canada from the US. The have some hefty "Broker Fees" that they charge the recipient. The shiper doesn't see them either. FedEx is bad but, UPS is a nightmare. Just google "Don't use UPS to Canada" for many horror stories. From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 11:17:26 2013 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:17:26 -0700 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51055CFE.1000906@gmail.com> References: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> <51055CFE.1000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: As with any brokerage situation, UPS brokers it for you to expedite delivery, and they charge you for it! To avoid brokerage fees you must "self-broker" it, which is perfectly acceptable with UPS/fedex etc. You need to call the Canadian Customs and get the paperwork, fill it out, pay the any customs duty (if any) then take the clearance letter to the UPS warehouse to pick up your item. Cheers Tom On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:59 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 1/27/2013 8:06 AM, Tom publix wrote: >> >> You can go to UPS and calculate the shipping charges using 110 lbs for >> the 11/04, 60 lbs for the RX02 and 15 lbs for the TU-58. >> > > Careful using UPS or FedEx to Canada from the US. The have some hefty > "Broker Fees" that they charge the recipient. The shiper doesn't see them > either. FedEx is bad but, UPS is a nightmare. Just google "Don't use UPS to > Canada" for many horror stories. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 27 11:52:40 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 09:52:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> > ... and that this is the device responsible for a number of Unix > keystrokes and shortcuts still in use to this day, including HJKL for > cursor movement in Vi and a thousand other programs, ~ meaning "Home" > and more besides. Quite remarkably educational. on eBay, is the ADM3a still called an "iMac prototype"? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 27 12:11:05 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A, iMac prototype? - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51056DB9.4000409@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/01/13 12:52 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> ... and that this is the device responsible for a number of Unix >> keystrokes and shortcuts still in use to this day, including HJKL for >> cursor movement in Vi and a thousand other programs, ~ meaning "Home" >> and more besides. Quite remarkably educational. > > on eBay, is the ADM3a still called an "iMac prototype"? I lold. --T From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun Jan 27 12:16:37 2013 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:16:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1359310597.35276.YahooMailNeo@web124904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not like bottom posting I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete response to get to Liam's response to that response.? This is?annoying. If you want to bottom post then trim please.? So this is why I no longer support bottom posts.. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Liam Proven To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Top Posting, was Re: What was that On 26 January 2013 02:16, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>? Wow. >>> >>>? I do not follow that logic AT ALL. >>> >>>? But that's ok. >> >> I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same. >> >> I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so >> since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so? >> >> I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3 >> accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering >> followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a >> web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary >> email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that >> time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms >> on a regular basis: >> >> Symbian >> Android >> iOS >> Mac OS X >> Windows XP >> Windows Vista >> Windows 7 >> Linux, various distros >> >> I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some >> online, some offline. >> >> Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted, >> single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? > ... >> If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested. > >? Yes.? Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM.? Actually several of > them.? I do it all the time.? All day, every day.? All day long, two > laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my > IMAP server.? Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox.? Are you > honestly suggesting that either: > >? 1) I don't actually do this, >? 2) This is not "credible", > >? or > >? 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail > program? > >? Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also > hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens > and I'm somehow without any of those devices. > >? I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail > client on the iPhone and the Android tablet.? The software on any of > them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP, > and it works great.? That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC) > >? POP3 needs to die.? It has needed to die for fifteen years.? In more > than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five > years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to > continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or > cluelessnesss.? I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF > PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past > about 1995. > >? Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things > specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you > continue to use POP3. > >? But hey, have fun. ;)? I have no patience for shoddy solutions.? If > webmail works for you, more power to you.? If POP3 works for you, great. >? I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage. I am mystified. Who said anything about POP3? I am not talking about POP3. I don't know anyone who is. I am talking about email providers and UIs. I do not have "a computer". I have 3 main home computers, several "work" computers, a smartphone - usually just 1 at a time - and I also use other devices. On about 25-33% of the machines I use, I have no privileges to install software. One the ones I own, I do, but I run multiple OSs and change regularly, so local apps with local state are a nuisance, to be avoided if possible. My Gmail inbox has 124 folders in it alongside the standard ones like "Bin" and "Spam". I have more rules than folders to sort my incoming mail. How could I reproduce that sort of setup with local apps? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 27 12:24:45 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:24:45 -0500 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 09:52:40AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >on eBay, is the ADM3a still called an "iMac prototype"? :-) Yeah it blew my mind when Jobs picked *that* look again. We called ADM3As "blue pigs" in college. Hated 'em. John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 27 12:36:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:36:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADM-3A, iMac prototype? - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51056DB9.4000409@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <51056DB9.4000409@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130127103444.C46057@shell.lmi.net> > > on eBay, is the ADM3a still called an "iMac prototype"? On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > I lold. But, the kids today have no idea what an ADM3a was, and don't even remember the iMac, so this is the last place that I can tell THAT joke. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 12:28:44 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:28:44 -0200 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <1359310597.35276.YahooMailNeo@web124904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7420905212094B9493176D84BF357E06@tababook> > The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not like bottom posting > I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete > response to get to Liam's response to that > This is annoying. If you want to bottom post then trim please. > So this is why I no longer support bottom posts.. But tell me, why the hell people doesn't trim e-mails like I do? From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 27 12:46:59 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 10:46:59 -0800 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: References: <5101BD97.8090500@west.net> <1359138027.60343.YahooMailNeo@web124905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5104aaee.c9e7440a.403d.fffff7a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <11F0E111-9C53-47D5-98B8-6A79921B6446@shiresoft.com> In OS X (using Mail.app) it only works if the previous quoted messages haven't been edited in any way (and then it doesn't always work then depending upon how the previous messages have been quoted. (and yes, I'm purposefully top posting on this thread). ;-) TTFN - Guy On Jan 27, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 January 2013 04:19, Lance Lyon wrote: >> Ditto - I despise bottom posting. You have to wade through reams of "stuff" >> to find (often) only a line or two newly posted. > > You are sending from Gmail. Gmail automatically hides all text that > you have read before. There is nothing to "wade through". > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 27 12:55:49 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:55:49 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/01/13 1:24 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 09:52:40AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> on eBay, is the ADM3a still called an "iMac prototype"? > > :-) > > Yeah it blew my mind when Jobs picked *that* look again. > We called ADM3As "blue pigs" in college. Hated 'em. Can you expand on why you hated them? Was that generic to glass ttys, or just this model? --Toby > > John Wilson > D Bit > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 27 13:11:18 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:11:18 -0600 Subject: Vector art on SAGE Message-ID: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> The Atlantic published a piece about vector art on the SAGE, circa 1956: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/01/the-never-before-told-story-of-the-worlds-first-computer-art-its-a-sexy-dame/267439/ - John From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 27 13:58:04 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:58:04 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130127195804.GA30868@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 01:55:49PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >Can you expand on why you hated them? Was that generic to glass ttys, >or just this model? For me it was the lack of selective clearing -- so doing even basic editing on an ADM3A (even just ^W to delete a word) over a 1200-baud modem connection meant lots and lots of ASCII blanks. Annoyingly slow... VT100s were *way* nicer, and even VT52s were a step up (at least they had ESC K, and the arrow keys could be easily distinguished from control chars, so ^H means one thing and left-arrow means another). John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 27 14:04:37 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:04:37 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130127200437.GA30999@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 01:55:49PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >Was that generic to glass ttys, >or just this model? Good point come to think of it though -- after all they did call it "The Dumb Terminal" so they weren't claiming much, and the ADM3A was more usable than what came immediately before. Text mode on a Tek 4006 was extremely unpleasant. And I've never used Hazeltine terminals but I gather they were known for having a different fatal flaw in each model (like reversing UC and LC or something like that). John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 27 14:04:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:04:51 -0800 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> On 01/27/2013 10:55 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Can you expand on why you hated them? Was that generic to glass ttys, or > just this model? We had a couple and nobody wanted to use them. They looked cheap, felt cheap and display quality was questionable. Beehive terminals were lot nicer--and people would fight to get to use the sole Tandberg that we had. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 14:13:47 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:13:47 -0600 Subject: Vector art on SAGE In-Reply-To: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: 21st norad only had the hula girl while I was there. great article. brings back a lot of memories. Paul On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 1:11 PM, John Foust wrote: > > The Atlantic published a piece about vector art on the SAGE, > circa 1956: > > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/01/the-never-before-told-story-of-the-worlds-first-computer-art-its-a-sexy-dame/267439/ > > - John > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 27 14:36:52 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:36:52 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/01/13 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/27/2013 10:55 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Can you expand on why you hated them? Was that generic to glass ttys, or >> just this model? > > We had a couple and nobody wanted to use them. They looked cheap, felt > cheap and display quality was questionable. Beehive terminals were lot > nicer--and people would fight to get to use the sole Tandberg that we had. > The TV-950 and VISUAL 200 had beautiful display quality and fairly advanced escape code vocabularies (ideal match for WordStar or WordMaster, for example). --Toby > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 27 15:02:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:02:25 -0800 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> On 01/27/2013 12:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > The TV-950 and VISUAL 200 had beautiful display quality and fairly > advanced escape code vocabularies (ideal match for WordStar or > WordMaster, for example). You'll note that the Tandberg TDV-2200 not only has a detachable keyboard (which separates it from the ADM3A), but also an adjustable height display, contrast-controlled keyboard and other goodies. The TVI 950 looks like something from the Stone Age in comparison. It's hard to find a photo now, but WikiP has one in a photo of a Norsk Data 560 system: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/ND-560.jpeg --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 27 15:23:55 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:23:55 -0500 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> <51055CFE.1000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51059AEB.1020505@compsys.to> >On Sunday, January 27, 2013 at 11:17:33 A.M. -0600, Tom publix wrote: >As with any brokerage situation, UPS brokers it for you to expedite >delivery, and they charge you for it! > > To avoid brokerage fees you must "self-broker" it, which is perfectly >acceptable with UPS/fedex etc. You need to call the Canadian Customs >and get the paperwork, fill it out, pay the any customs duty (if any) >then take the clearance letter to the UPS warehouse to pick up your >item. > >>On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:59 AM, mc68010 wrote: > > >>>On 1/27/2013 8:06 AM, Tom publix wrote: >> >> >>>You can go to UPS and calculate the shipping charges using 110 lbs for >>>the 11/04, 60 lbs for the RX02 and 15 lbs for the TU-58. >>> >>Careful using UPS or FedEx to Canada from the US. The have some hefty >>"Broker Fees" that they charge the recipient. The shiper doesn't see them >>either. FedEx is bad but, UPS is a nightmare. Just google "Don't use UPS to >>Canada" for many horror stories. >> There is another way which is also allowed and totally legal. FIRST, all shipments into Canada from the US must include a COMMERCIAL INVOICE which states the country of origin and the total value of the merchandise - NOT including the shipping charges. Any shipment without a COMMERCIAL INVOICE will be returned to the sender. For computer parts with the US as the country of origin (i.e. where the part was manufactured), there is NO duty, only GST or HST. HOWEVER, at least as far as FedEx is concerned, if the the total value of the merchandise is less than $ 20.00, the shipment is declared LOW VALUE and the GST of 5% or $ 1.40 is waived for a shipment to a company with a valid GST / HST number and user code (or something like that - I have one but I have not shipped lately and I can't remember the actual name). That may also be true if HST of 13% or $ 2.60, but check first. The key point is that the shipping cost is NOT included in the value of the merchandise and is not provided on the COMMERCIAL INVOICE. Many times in the past, I shipped via FedEx since Air Freight was usually more reliable and there was less damage. When the shipment was less than $ 20.00, there was no GST to pay and therefore NO brokerage was needed since no payment at all was required. FedEx is actually making the charge to collect the GST on behalf of Canada Customs. I would check VERY carefully if UPS does the same with shipments of $ 20.00 or less since I know of the reputation UPS has for brokerage fees exceeding the shipping charges. So just make the COMMERCIAL INVOICE at a value which allows the total value of the merchandise to be LOW VALUE and the rest of the actual invoice will be the shipping and handling or packing cost. NOTE that any insurance claims will be paid on the declared value of the merchandise NOT including the shipping and handling. Just a bit of my experience when I was buying stuff like optical disk drives and media. Most of the time, no one wanted the stuff and it was going to the dumpster. So there was no problem with a LOW VALUE on the COMMERCIAL INVOICE even though the shipping cost was more than the merchandise. Jerome Fine From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Jan 27 15:42:31 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:42:31 +0000 Subject: ADM-3A, iMac prototype? - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <20130127103444.C46057@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 1/27/13 10:36 AM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >> > on eBay, is the ADM3a still called an "iMac prototype"? >On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote: >> I lold. > >But, the kids today have no idea what an ADM3a was, and don't even >remember the iMac, so this is the last place that I can tell THAT joke. > > When I was at Microsoft, one of my projects (Windows CE kernel) required a serial terminal connection, so I kept an ADM-3A on my desk. You have no idea how many people thought that "iMac" looked funny. Too much fun! -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Jan 27 15:47:09 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:47:09 +0000 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: <06bf01cdfac9$e3986bc0$aac94340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/13 11:02 PM, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > >Frankly this is such a tedious topic, because there are valid arguments on >both sides > >All we get is a lot of heat and no light and no solution. I just wish >people >would stop these threads, and understand that different people have >different preferences and they are all valid. There is no right answer >until >someone invents an email format that abstracts the information, allowing >email readers to be configured to the user's preference for top or bottom >posting. What a great idea! The mind is already contemplating the method.... -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Jan 27 16:04:48 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:04:48 +0000 Subject: ADM3A missing the cover (was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/25/13 7:21 PM, "Tom publix" wrote: >More cleaning and lowered price on some stuff that didn't sell last time >around. > >As always, remind me that you are a list member and I'll add some >freebies. > >Thanks to all on the list whose purchased from me. > >-tom > >tcp1022 > >AT&T 6300 Personal Computer 251219453567 >DEC Pro 350 251219291641 >DEC VAX4000/300 251219438856 >DEC alpha PWS 500au 251219352958 >DEC VAX 4000/VLC 251219392926 >HP 9885 floppy drives 251219443307 >AT&T 6300 251219453567 >DEC TU-58 251219297427 >SMS RXO1/RX02 floppy dr 251219332374 >PDP 11/04 251219325467 >ADM3A 251219433952 > > I see that, like most ADM3a's I've seen, yours is missing the cover plate for the configuration switches. I brought one of mine in to the Museum for a bit (because of the unattached terminals we had, none was working) and I guarded my cover plate carefully. Not that I don't trust my colleagues, but stuff happens.... :-) -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Jan 27 16:29:06 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:29:06 +0000 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <5102F042.4040606@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 1/25/13 12:51 PM, "MG" wrote: >On 24-jan-2013 23:27, David Riley wrote: >> http://northtech.us/content/20130123/end-era-rip-fafner > >Nice article, did you write it? > > >> I only got to use it a few times, but it was nice to be able >> to connect to some real iron (I still have an account on the >> LCM's 11/785, I think). Service is continued on an Alpha DS20, >> but my username seems to be a bit broken at the moment. > >Yes, for that reason I also really like(d) FAFNER::! Lots of >great software on it, too (e.g. Rdb, LaTeX and more). If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in the community. -- Ian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 27 17:04:31 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 18:04:31 -0500 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51059AEB.1020505@compsys.to> References: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> <51055CFE.1000906@gmail.com> <51059AEB.1020505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5105B27F.50608@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/01/13 4:23 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >On Sunday, January 27, 2013 at 11:17:33 A.M. -0600, Tom publix wrote: > >> As with any brokerage situation, UPS brokers it for you to expedite >> delivery, and they charge you for it! >> >> To avoid brokerage fees you must "self-broker" it, which is perfectly >> acceptable with UPS/fedex etc. You need to call the Canadian Customs >> and get the paperwork, fill it out, pay the any customs duty (if any) >> then take the clearance letter to the UPS warehouse to pick up your >> item. >> >>> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:59 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> >>>> On 1/27/2013 8:06 AM, Tom publix wrote: >>> >>>> You can go to UPS and calculate the shipping charges using 110 lbs for >>>> the 11/04, 60 lbs for the RX02 and 15 lbs for the TU-58. >>>> >>> Careful using UPS or FedEx to Canada from the US. The have some hefty >>> "Broker Fees" that they charge the recipient. The shiper doesn't see >>> them >>> either. FedEx is bad but, UPS is a nightmare. Just google "Don't use >>> UPS to >>> Canada" for many horror stories. >>> > There is another way which is also allowed and totally legal. > > FIRST, all shipments into Canada from the US must include a > COMMERCIAL INVOICE which states the country of origin > and the total value of the merchandise - NOT including the > shipping charges. Any shipment without a COMMERCIAL > INVOICE will be returned to the sender. > > For computer parts with the US as the country of origin (i.e. where > the part was manufactured), there is NO duty, only GST or HST. > ... Jerome, You are worth your weight in gold. And no, I'm not suggesting you be scrapped any time soon! --Toby > > Jerome Fine > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 27 17:09:43 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:09:43 -0000 Subject: Top Posting In-Reply-To: References: <06bf01cdfac9$e3986bc0$aac94340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01bd01cdfce3$65e93350$31bb99f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King > Sent: 27 January 2013 21:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Top Posting > > On 1/24/13 11:02 PM, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > > > > >Frankly this is such a tedious topic, because there are valid arguments > >on both sides > > > >All we get is a lot of heat and no light and no solution. I just wish > >people would stop these threads, and understand that different people And until then, I am going to middle-post, that way I am not favouring any particular camp :-) > >have different preferences and they are all valid. There is no right > >answer until someone invents an email format that abstracts the > >information, allowing email readers to be configured to the user's > >preference for top or bottom posting. > > What a great idea! The mind is already contemplating the method.... -- Ian > > From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 27 17:43:04 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 18:43:04 -0500 Subject: ADM3A missing the cover (was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130127234304.GA32639@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 10:04:48PM +0000, Ian King wrote: >I see that, like most ADM3a's I've seen, yours is missing the cover plate >for the configuration switches. I brought one of mine in to the Museum >for a bit (because of the unattached terminals we had, none was working) >and I guarded my cover plate carefully. Not that I don't trust my >colleagues, but stuff happens.... :-) Has anyone tried making replicas? I'd certainly hate my mildewy old blue pig slightly less if it weren't missing that plate ... and I'd be happy to express my negativity more usefully by paying someone a reasonable price for a decent copy. John Wilson D Bit From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 20:14:26 2013 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 18:14:26 -0800 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I should have been clearer in my post. In my experience, most people who won't use webmail justify their position not on the superiority of mail clients, but on the opinion that they prefer having their mail in their position, and not "in a cloud server some where". I'm not going to debate if that is true or not. It's just what I have had too many people tell me. But, if you want to keep several clients in sync with your mail, you need to keep the definitive repository somewhere, usually your inbox. I was pointing out the willful blindness of people who believe IMAP servers are less "in the cloud" then a webmail server. Indeed, most webmail servers, Google's included, provide IMAP services. So, my, unsaid, staring piont is that mail clients give you no more ownership over your mail than web mail. On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/25/2013 09:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Wow. >>> >>> I do not follow that logic AT ALL. >>> >>> But that's ok. >> >> I think he is absolutely right and I have done the same. >> >> I have tried all the leading webmail systems and have been doing so >> since Hotmail launched in, what, 1996 or so? >> >> I use webmail with an IMAP server that polls my 4 or 5 various POP3 >> accounts and collects all mail in a single inbox for spam-filtering >> followed by application of my sorting rules. I then access this via a >> web page, a mobile web page, a specific client app, or an ordinary >> email MUA, as is most appropriate for the platform I am using at that >> time. I access or have accessed my mail from the following platforms >> on a regular basis: >> >> Symbian >> Android >> iOS >> Mac OS X >> Windows XP >> Windows Vista >> Windows 7 >> Linux, various distros >> >> I use half a dozen of that list virtually on a daily basis, some >> online, some offline. >> >> Can you suggest any /other/ way of accessing a filtered, sorted, >> single global email inbox /other than/ using webmail? > ... >> If you can come up with /any/ credible alternative, I'd be interested. > > Yes. Using [drum roll please] A MAIL PROGRAM. Actually several of > them. I do it all the time. All day, every day. All day long, two > laptops, a desktop, an iPhone, and an Android tablet are connected to my > IMAP server. Filtered, sorted, single global email inbox. Are you > honestly suggesting that either: > > 1) I don't actually do this, > 2) This is not "credible", > > or > 3) A web browser is somehow BETTER at being a mail program than a mail > program? Actually yes. Too many mail programs simply suck. And finding one that works on all of the 4 platforms I use on a daily basis is nigh impossible. So GMail is the best choice for me. In particular, GMail does away with the the primitive notion of (IMAP's) folders, and lets you categorize mail with as many labels as it needs, and with a great search capability. The day I switched over, I wondered why I had been reluctant for so long. I never looked back. > Further, I have an instance of SquirrelMail running here that also > hits the same IMAP account, just in case something *terrible* happens > and I'm somehow without any of those devices. > > I run Thunderbird on the desktop and laptops, and the default mail > client on the iPhone and the Android tablet. The software on any of > them could be replaced at any time with anything else that speaks IMAP, > and it works great. That is, after all, why IMAP exists. (RIP MRC) > POP3 needs to die. It has needed to die for fifteen years. In more > than two decades of running mail servers, for all but the first five > years or so of that I've not seen a single GOOD reason for POP3 to > continue to be used, other than stubbornness, laziness, or > cluelessnesss. I have managed mail services for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF > PEOPLE and have not seen a single credible case for the use of POP3 past > about 1995. Agreed. I would just lump IMAP in there as well. :-) > Note that I'm not accusing YOU personally of any of those things > specifically, because I (for the life of me!) don't know WHY you > continue to use POP3. > > But hey, have fun. ;) I have no patience for shoddy solutions. If > webmail works for you, more power to you. If POP3 works for you, great. > I could never in a million years suffer through that garbage. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 27 20:21:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 18:21:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retroarchive.org update... Message-ID: More goodies for the Don Maslin archive - I'm up to and including the "cpmprog" directory so far. Also, some SLR tools were added. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 27 20:30:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:30:46 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5105E2D6.3010609@neurotica.com> On 01/27/2013 09:14 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > I should have been clearer in my post. > > In my experience, most people who won't use webmail justify their > position not on the superiority of mail clients, but on the opinion > that they prefer having their mail in their position, and not "in a > cloud server some where". I'm not going to debate if that is true or > not. It's just what I have had too many people tell me. > > But, if you want to keep several clients in sync with your mail, you > need to keep the definitive repository somewhere, usually your inbox. > I was pointing out the willful blindness of people who believe IMAP > servers are less "in the cloud" then a webmail server. Indeed, most > webmail servers, Google's included, provide IMAP services. > > So, my, unsaid, staring piont is that mail clients give you no more > ownership over your mail than web mail. Of course you are correct. Indeed, a webmail program is, on the server side, a mail client with a remotely-implemented GUI. This being a technical forum, I'd be shocked, and a bit dismayed, if anyone here didn't know that. In my case, I run my own mail server. Whatever mail client(s) I use, be they textual, graphical, or graphical-with-a-remote-GUI like a webmail client, is still backed by the mail server that I control...not a mail server run by the world's largest data collection, indexing, and mining company. (yes, there was a hint there) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Sun Jan 27 20:31:59 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:31:59 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <1359310597.35276.YahooMailNeo@web124904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <1359310597.35276.YahooMailNeo@web124904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130128023159.GE3806@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated: > The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not like bottom posting > > I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete > response to get to Liam's response to that response.? And I hate having to scroll down to see the relative context, then scrolling back up to read your reply. I'm sorry, but unlike you, I cannot maintain the context of three dozen threads in my inbox (I subscribe to more than just this list). I find having some context easier on me, even if it is dozens of lines. But then again, I run my own email server, and use mutt on said email server to read my email---no IMAP or POP here. > This is?annoying. If you want to bottom post then trim please.? Pot. Meet Kettle. > So this is why I no longer support bottom posts.. And this is an example of why I hate top posting. You, who bitched about Liam not trimming his reply have not even bothered to trim your reply here, and included 112 lines of extraneous emails. Personally, I blame Microsoft Outlook for this, making it all to damn easy to post a pithy one line reply and not even bothering to trim the remaining email. -spc (Trimming 112 lines because I care ... ) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 27 20:31:56 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:31:56 -0500 Subject: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <5105B27F.50608@telegraphics.com.au> References: <140A4E86-D79E-457F-9477-C65D6781DDB0@liveblockauctions.com> <51055CFE.1000906@gmail.com> <51059AEB.1020505@compsys.to> <5105B27F.50608@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5105E31C.8010206@compsys.to> >Toby Thain wrote: > >On 27/01/13 4:23 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> There is another way which is also allowed and totally legal. >> >> [Snip] > > Jerome, > > You are worth your weight in gold. > > And no, I'm not suggesting you be scrapped any time soon! I am VERY curious. You are in Australia! ?? How did that help you? Probably the Customs in Australia are similar, so the same sort of threshold applies. Otherwise, how did I actually help? My wife will appreciate that I will still be around for a while rather than being scrapped. (Grin) Jerome Fine From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 20:43:48 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:43:48 -0500 Subject: Odd TTL chip Message-ID: I have here an odd 7400 TTL chip - the prefix is TG. TG74S00J. Who was this? Who made TG74xx TTL? It looks somewhat like an old Sylvania ceramic DIP from the early 1970s. I have perhaps thought Transitron, but it is not. And there is no logo, other than a plain looking T. Ideas? -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 27 21:03:06 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:03:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, William Donzelli wrote: > I have here an odd 7400 TTL chip - the prefix is TG. TG74S00J. Who was > this? Who made TG74xx TTL? It looks somewhat like an old Sylvania > ceramic DIP from the early 1970s. I have perhaps thought Transitron, > but it is not. And there is no logo, other than a plain looking T. > > Ideas? Toshiba? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 21:10:28 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:10:28 -0500 Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Toshiba? I do not think so. Toshiba chips tend to be pretty flamboyant, anyway. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 27 21:57:56 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:57:56 -0800 Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5105F744.8030102@sydex.com> On 01/27/2013 06:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have here an odd 7400 TTL chip - the prefix is TG. TG74S00J. Who was > this? Who made TG74xx TTL? It looks somewhat like an old Sylvania > ceramic DIP from the early 1970s. I have perhaps thought Transitron, > but it is not. And there is no logo, other than a plain looking T. My Moto 1968 interchangeability guide shows the TG7400E was a Transitron product. Does the "T" have a little curl on the left side of the crossbar? That'd be Transitron. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 22:13:37 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:13:37 -0500 Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: <5105F744.8030102@sydex.com> References: <5105F744.8030102@sydex.com> Message-ID: > My Moto 1968 interchangeability guide shows the TG7400E was a Transitron > product. I think you may be right, but it does not look like a Transitron TTL chip I have seen before. One wonders if Sylvania made it and it was rebranded, just like in the tube days. > Does the "T" have a little curl on the left side of the crossbar? That'd be > Transitron. Not really, but it could be a bad printing job. -- Will From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 27 22:15:42 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:15:42 -0800 Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: <5105F744.8030102@sydex.com> References: <5105F744.8030102@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5105FB6E.6010201@sbcglobal.net> On 1/27/2013 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/27/2013 06:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have here an odd 7400 TTL chip - the prefix is TG. TG74S00J. Who was >> this? Who made TG74xx TTL? It looks somewhat like an old Sylvania >> ceramic DIP from the early 1970s. I have perhaps thought Transitron, >> but it is not. And there is no logo, other than a plain looking T. > > My Moto 1968 interchangeability guide shows the TG7400E was a > Transitron product. > > Does the "T" have a little curl on the left side of the crossbar? > That'd be Transitron. > > --Chuck My Transitron designer's guide list the TG7400J but not a 74S00. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 27 22:16:11 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:16:11 -0800 Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5105FB8B.7080506@sydex.com> Here'e an eBay auction offering some Transitron flatpacks for sale. Note the logo: http://i.ebayimg.com/t/RARE-UNIQUE-1968-NOS-Transitron-Space-Program-Atlas-Apollo-709-IC-Ceramic-Gold-/00/s/MzU5WDQ0OA==/$(KGrHqN,!pUE7BcvhO(5BPs9+ZJ40!~~60_1.JPG (ebay item 130733865880) --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 22:43:15 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:43:15 -0500 Subject: Odd TTL chip In-Reply-To: <5105FB8B.7080506@sydex.com> References: <5105FB8B.7080506@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Here'e an eBay auction offering some Transitron flatpacks for sale. Note the > logo: OK, I'm sold. This is a Transitron chip. rare part. Thanks, all. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 27 23:01:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 00:01:08 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51060614.1010700@neurotica.com> On 01/27/2013 05:29 PM, Ian King wrote: > If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please don't > hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in the community. Is this a public-access machine? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 23:39:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 00:39:54 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <51060614.1010700@neurotica.com> References: <51060614.1010700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/27/2013 05:29 PM, Ian King wrote: >> If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please don't >> hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in the community. > > Is this a public-access machine? If you ask nicely, yes. Same policy as their PDP-10s. I have an account, though I have to admit to only having logged in once before my supply of tuits ran dry. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 27 23:46:13 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:46:13 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <510595E1.3020200 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > It's hard to find a photo now, but WikiP has one in a photo of a Norsk > Data 560 system: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/ND-560.jpeg Come on guys... the Terminals wiki is almost a year old now. You should always earch there first :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 00:28:26 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:28:26 -0800 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51061A8A.8010305@sydex.com> On 01/27/2013 09:46 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <510595E1.3020200 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> It's hard to find a photo now, but WikiP has one in a photo of a Norsk >> Data 560 system: >> >> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/ND-560.jpeg > > Come on guys... the Terminals wiki is almost a year old now. You > should always earch there first :) > Well, your Beehive terminals only go to about 1976. They were definitely in business past 1981--I used their VT220 clone that looked something like a CIT 101. You show only one TAB terminal--I was using their VT220 clone in about 1986. Nice bit of kit. I still have a pile of boards from some Fujitsu block-mode terminals that I converted to monitors. You don't even list Fujitsu. You need to do more homework, Richard! :) --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 28 01:20:15 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 00:20:15 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51061A8A.8010305@sydex.com> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> <51061A8A.8010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <51061A8A.8010305 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > [Complaints] "I don't like the taste of this free beer!" -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 27 15:56:36 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:56:36 -0800 Subject: Zorba Computer on Orange County, CA craigslist Message-ID: <5105A294.9060803@jwsss.com> Looks nice, but I'm not collecting them. http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/3575037994.html From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 17:23:39 2013 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:23:39 +0000 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors Message-ID: Hi, I have been reading about LIF format floppies, in particular as used on the HP Series 80 and 200. I found this description: ftp://ftp.hpmuseum.org/lif/lifutil/lif_over.txt an overview on MoHPC: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=24 and the HPDir utility: http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/index.html Can anyone explain please how bad sectors are marked as 'spare' under LIF? The LIF overview states: "LIFUTIL cannot recognize "spared tracks" on a LIF disk. To explain ... when you format a LIF disk, not all the tracks may be good; so the formatting process marks them as "bad" or "spared" and they are not used. LIFUTIL is incapable of distinguishing a spared track from any other; so it will suck in the spared track along with any other tracks in the file or directory, leading to corrupted files or catalog reads." What I can't find is a description of the bytes encoded on the disk to mark a track as spare. One possibility is this is dealt with by the HP disk controller firmware, and so hidden to the operating system, which sees a LIF directory as per the above descriptions, without seeing the spare tracks. I am trying to find some floppies with spare tracks and then analyse them on a PC, hopefully someone has been there already and can shed some light on the mechanism used. Regards, John From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Jan 28 02:42:35 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:42:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC documentation to give away Message-ID: <1359362555.65317.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi folks, I have some duplicates (seven binders) regarding DEC's red/gray wall documentation: - MicroPower/Pascal-RT, Volume 2, Version 1 Language Guide: System User's Guide (red binder) Six gray binders (VMS 5.0): - System Management Volume 1B: Setup - Programming Volume 6A: File System - Programming Volume 3: System Routines - System Management Volume 2: ?Maintenance - Programming Volume 1: Introduction - Programming Volume 4A: System Services ? I give them away for free, you take care about shipping costs. Located in Germany. Contact me offline, if someone wants them. No need to take them as a bunch. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jan 28 04:22:09 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:22:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, John S wrote: > What I can't find is a description of the bytes encoded on the disk to > mark a track as spare. One possibility is this is dealt with by the HP > disk controller firmware, and so hidden to the operating system, which > sees a LIF directory as per the above descriptions, without seeing the > spare tracks. Now that's simple. The disc (HP don't say disk) format is described in some HP-IB floppy drive manual. A bad track is marked by $FF as the cylinder value in the ID field of each sector of a track. When reading, you just skip to the next track as long as the cylinder value is $FF. For example, if you've read (physical) cylinder 37 side 0 and want to read side 1, when the cyl. value if $FF, you skip to cylinder 38 side 0. But attention, the information in the ID field says cylinder 37 head 1 instead. So you have to distinguish between physical accesses and logical tracks. > I am trying to find some floppies with spare tracks and then analyse > them on a PC, hopefully someone has been there already and can shed some > light on the mechanism used. You are right with your above assumption that the drive's firmware is automatically doing bad track handling. I have several 3.5" floppies that have one or two bad tracks and are otherwise unusable as normal DOS disks. I use those floppies with the 9122C drive that I have on the HP1000. Christian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Jan 28 05:02:48 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:02:48 +1300 Subject: My BBC Model B on Youtube Message-ID: The best of British in my collection. The capable and classy BBC Model B Microcomputer System. http://youtu.be/r9oAAcRk2Ys From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 28 05:32:21 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:32:21 +0100 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> On 27-jan-2013 23:29, Ian King wrote: > If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please > don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in > the community. > -- Ian That sounds excellent. I haven't heard of that system before. Where and how can I access it? (Or perhaps a web site with administrative contact information and such?) - MG From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 06:50:26 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:50:26 -0500 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> On Jan 28, 2013, at 6:32 AM, MG wrote: > On 27-jan-2013 23:29, Ian King wrote: >> If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please >> don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in >> the community. >> -- Ian > > That sounds excellent. I haven't heard of that system before. Where > and how can I access it? (Or perhaps a web site with administrative > contact information and such?) http://livingcomputermuseum.org Get Involved->Request a Login (I'd link it directly, but it's an ugly link that might well change in the future; the webmaster might consider putting a redirect at something like /get_a_login that can be permalinked). - Dave From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Jan 28 07:49:58 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:49:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC documentation to give away has been spoken for In-Reply-To: <1359362555.65317.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1359362555.65317.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1359380998.8398.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> The docs already found some interest and have been spoken for. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ----- Weitergeleitete Message ----- >Von: P Gebhardt >An: cctalk >Gesendet: 9:42 Montag, 28.Januar 2013 >Betreff: DEC documentation to give away > >Hi folks, > >I have some duplicates (seven binders) regarding DEC's red/gray wall documentation: > >- MicroPower/Pascal-RT, Volume 2, Version 1 Language Guide: System User's Guide (red binder) > > >Six gray binders (VMS 5.0): >- System Management Volume 1B: Setup >- Programming Volume 6A: File System >- Programming Volume 3: System Routines >- System Management Volume 2: ?Maintenance >- Programming Volume 1: Introduction >- Programming Volume 4A: System Services >? > >I give them away for free, you take care about shipping costs. Located in Germany. >Contact me offline, if someone wants them. No need to take them as a bunch. > >Kind regards, >Pierre > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ > > > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 28 08:07:49 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:07:49 -0600 Subject: Iomega "autodetect" cable internals In-Reply-To: <5104779E.4090700@gmail.com> References: <5104779E.4090700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001b01cdfd60$dac406a0$904c13e0$@com> OK, going to sound stupid here, but why not just buy a null modem cable for less than $10? Or a gender changer for less than $5? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 6:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Iomega "autodetect" cable internals Has anyone dissected one of the blue Iomega 25-way cables that are marked "AutoDetect" at the female connector end? I've got one in the junk pile and on a meter it checks out as though it's wired with a 1:1 pin mapping, but I assume the "AutoDetect" label means that it has some kind of smarts embedded into one end or the other (or both) which only work their magic under certain conditions. I'm on the hunt for a DB25 male connector and bit of multi-way cable so I can wire up a null modem cable for the QX-10 [1] - if it's all at the female end then that's good because I'd be lopping that end off anyway... [1] which has a DB25 female RS232 port, and of course the only gender-changers I have here are DE9s, no DB25's... :-) cheers Jules ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6062 - Release Date: 01/27/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6062 - Release Date: 01/27/13 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 08:40:34 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:40:34 -0600 Subject: Iomega "autodetect" cable internals In-Reply-To: <001b01cdfd60$dac406a0$904c13e0$@com> References: <5104779E.4090700@gmail.com> <001b01cdfd60$dac406a0$904c13e0$@com> Message-ID: <51068DE2.7060908@gmail.com> On 01/28/2013 08:07 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > OK, going to sound stupid here, but why not just buy a null modem cable for > less than $10? Or a gender changer for less than $5? Because I'm in the middle of nowhere and such things aren't available locally, so I figured I could perhaps use what I had rather than waiting the week it typically takes for shipping anything here - by which time the immediate need would have gone anyway :-) cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 08:54:53 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:54:53 -0800 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > Now that's simple. The disc (HP don't say disk) format is described in some > HP-IB floppy drive manual. A bad track is marked by $FF as the cylinder > value in the ID field of each sector of a track. When reading, you just skip > to the next track as long as the cylinder value is $FF. For example, if > you've read (physical) cylinder 37 side 0 and want to read side 1, when the > cyl. value if $FF, you skip to cylinder 38 side 0. But attention, the > information in the ID field says cylinder 37 head 1 instead. So you have to > distinguish between physical accesses and logical tracks. http://www.hpmuseum.net 9895A_DiscDrive_ServiceManual_09895-90030_173pages_Feb81.pdf 2-12 Theory of Operation Track Numbering. Each track has a physical address as previously described. There is also a logical track address associated with each good track. The logical track address is written in the ID field of each sector on the track. If a disc has no bad tracks, the logical address of a track is the same as the physical address. A disc with N bad tracks can be made to look like a 77-N track disc with no bad tracks. To do this, the logical track address stored in the ID field of each sector of every bad track is set to !FF. Tracks of this type are known as invisible tracks. All visible tracks are then sequentially assigned logical track numbers. Logical Track 0 is the outermost good track, not necessarily physical Track 0. From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Mon Jan 28 09:01:29 2013 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi Message-ID: <1359385289.10262.androidMobile@web180905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> this reminded me of you http://bit.ly/XFaSyp JC From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jan 28 06:45:00 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:45:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) Message-ID: <01OPIV2F5GJ00060AA@beyondthepale.ie> John Wilson wrote: > On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 01:55:49PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: > >Can you expand on why you hated them? Was that generic to glass ttys, > >or just this model? > > For me it was the lack of selective clearing -- so doing even basic > editing on an ADM3A (even just ^W to delete a word) over a 1200-baud modem > connection meant lots and lots of ASCII blanks. Annoyingly slow... > VT100s were *way* nicer, and even VT52s were a step up (at least they > had ESC K, and the arrow keys could be easily distinguished from control > chars, so ^H means one thing and left-arrow means another). > I had access to a bunch of VT100s, ADM5s and an occasional ADM3A. I also didn't like the ADM3A because of its screen clearing difficulties. However, I preferred using the ADM5s as I found them subjectively faster than the VT100s (even after making sure smooth scroll was disabled). I never did any objective testing but I put this down to the longer and more complex escape sequences used by the VT100, especially when connecting to something that did a lot of cursor positioning. As far as I recall, all would have been set to 4800 baud. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tingox at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 08:08:07 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 15:08:07 +0100 Subject: Retroarchive.org update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 3:21 AM, geneb wrote: > More goodies for the Don Maslin archive - I'm up to and including the > "cpmprog" directory so far. > > Also, some SLR tools were added. FYI, you need www.retroarchive.org - retroarchive.org on its own does not resolve. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 28 09:41:48 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:41:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retroarchive.org update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jan 2013, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 3:21 AM, geneb wrote: >> More goodies for the Don Maslin archive - I'm up to and including the >> "cpmprog" directory so far. >> >> Also, some SLR tools were added. > > FYI, you need www.retroarchive.org - retroarchive.org on its own does > not resolve. > That's because "retroarchive.org" by itself isn't a valid hostname as far as I'm concerned. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 28 11:01:12 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:01:12 -0600 Subject: Vector art on SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:13 PM 1/27/2013, Paul Anderson wrote: >21st norad only had the hula girl while I was there. great article. >brings back a lot of memories. I asked the author Benj Edwards if anyone had a copy of the data - so far, no one said they had it. I thought it would be fun to recreate it from the original deck. - John From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 12:08:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:08:51 -0800 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> <51061A8A.8010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5106BEB3.8090707@sydex.com> On 01/27/2013 11:20 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <51061A8A.8010305 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> [Complaints] > > "I don't like the taste of this free beer!" You asked why--and I answered. The photo from WikiP of the TDV 2200 sitting there with the ND boxes was nicely done and no worse than the photo on the Terminal Wiki. Keep up your fine work and you may eventually get around to documenting the Fortune Systems terminal that I worked on. Or the Bunker Ramo terminal that prompted me to invest in the firm (I still own the stock, but BR was swallowed by Allied Chemical a long time ago. I still get divided checks, however). --Chuck From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 12:39:50 2013 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:39:50 -0800 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <5105E2D6.3010609@neurotica.com> References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <5105E2D6.3010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, January 27, 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/27/2013 09:14 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > > I should have been clearer in my post. > > > > In my experience, most people who won't use webmail justify their > > position not on the superiority of mail clients, but on the opinion > > that they prefer having their mail in their position, and not "in a > > cloud server some where". I'm not going to debate if that is true or > > not. It's just what I have had too many people tell me. > > > > But, if you want to keep several clients in sync with your mail, you > > need to keep the definitive repository somewhere, usually your inbox. > > I was pointing out the willful blindness of people who believe IMAP > > servers are less "in the cloud" then a webmail server. Indeed, most > > webmail servers, Google's included, provide IMAP services. > > > > So, my, unsaid, staring piont is that mail clients give you no more > > ownership over your mail than web mail. > > Of course you are correct. Indeed, a webmail program is, on the > server side, a mail client with a remotely-implemented GUI. This being > a technical forum, I'd be shocked, and a bit dismayed, if anyone here > didn't know that. > I'm not surprised by what people willing try to not believe. > In my case, I run my own mail server. Whatever mail client(s) I use, > be they textual, graphical, or graphical-with-a-remote-GUI like a > webmail client, is still backed by the mail server that I control.. LOL. Well that puts you out of the range of most people - even for this list. I used to run my own mail server in my basement. I had exactly the comfort of total control you have. But the machines seemed to sense when I would be away, and always choose to wedge up then. After too many times talking a 7 year old through rebooting the server rack in the scary corner of the basement, I punted and someone with 24/7 ops handle it. > .not > a mail server run by the world's largest data collection, indexing, and > mining company. > Overall, I'm not sure what is the most secure (in the privacy sense) option. A lot of factors go into it. In particular, I don't trust my ISP to not sniff the mail stream (usually unencrypted) coming into my home. So, I don't really trust the privacy of my connection there. If I move my servers to a colo, then I feel slightly better, but I don't actually have physical control over the hardware, so it's not 100%. > > (yes, there was a hint there) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From d235j.1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 13:03:33 2013 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:03:33 -0500 Subject: Retroarchive.org update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 10:41 AM, geneb wrote: > That's because "retroarchive.org" by itself isn't a valid hostname as far as > I'm concerned. Why not use a 301 redirect? that's generally how I do things in this situation. --Dave From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 28 13:15:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:15:46 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <5106BEB3.8090707@sydex.com> References: <50D6CB7472A247B499A9FA07AD84B55C@medion> <5104FB81.70402@gmail.com> <510548D5.6080105@telegraphics.com.au> <20130127095149.C46057@shell.lmi.net> <20130127182445.GA30182@dbit.dbit.com> <51057835.4040809@telegraphics.com.au> <51058863.5050101@sydex.com> <51058FE4.10100@telegraphics.com.au> <510595E1.3020200@sydex.com> <51061A8A.8010305@sydex.com> <5106BEB3.8090707@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <5106BEB3.8090707 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > On 01/27/2013 11:20 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <51061A8A.8010305 at sydex.com>, > > Chuck Guzis writes: > > > >> [Complaints] > > > > "I don't like the taste of this free beer!" > > You asked why--and I answered. The photo from WikiP of the TDV 2200 > sitting there with the ND boxes was nicely done and no worse than the > photo on the Terminal Wiki. You said it was hard to find a picture of the TDV 2200, but there are clearly two on the wiki. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 28 13:20:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:20:51 -0700 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <1359385289.10262.androidMobile@web180905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1359385289.10262.androidMobile@web180905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In case you haven't figured out; this is spam. Don't open the URL. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 28 13:22:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:22:54 -0700 Subject: SAGE card decks (was: Vector art on SAGE) In-Reply-To: <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297 at mx1.ezwind.net>, John Foust writes: > At 02:13 PM 1/27/2013, Paul Anderson wrote: > >21st norad only had the hula girl while I was there. great article. > >brings back a lot of memories. > > I asked the author Benj Edwards if > anyone had a copy of the data - so far, no one said they had it. > I thought it would be fun to recreate it from the original deck. No matter what the topic, I would like to see *any* SAGE card decks archived. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 28 13:27:37 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:27:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retroarchive.org update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jan 2013, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 10:41 AM, geneb wrote: >> That's because "retroarchive.org" by itself isn't a valid hostname as far as >> I'm concerned. > > Why not use a 301 redirect? that's generally how I do things in this situation. > That's up to Jay - I have not created an A record for the domain. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 13:31:52 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:31:52 -0600 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: <1359385289.10262.androidMobile@web180905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yep On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Richard wrote: > In case you haven't figured out; this is spam. Don't open the URL. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 28 14:14:12 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:14:12 +0100 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: <1359385289.10262.androidMobile@web180905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002401cdfd94$0dbbefe0$2933cfa0$@xs4all.nl> Ahh, now i know.. > yep > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Richard wrote: > > > In case you haven't figured out; this is spam. Don't open the URL. > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > > The Computer Graphics Museum > > The Terminals Wiki > > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > > > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Jan 28 15:19:04 2013 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 15:19:04 -0600 Subject: IMAP Mail Sorting/Filtering (Was: Top Posting, was Re: What was that) In-Reply-To: References: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <51046F69.5050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130128211904.GA2671@RawFedDogs.net> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:14:51AM +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it couldn't do is the rules. Really? My current Dovecot sieve script is 1,411 lines long. It sort messages from various mailing lists into 236 different mailboxes. At the moment I have 3,042,355 messages total in those mailboxes. I'm an e-mail pack rat. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 28 15:31:49 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:31:49 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) References: Message-ID: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Message: 13 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:28:26 -0800 From: Chuck Guzis On 01/27/2013 09:46 PM, Richard wrote: >> Come on guys... the Terminals wiki is almost a year old now. You >> should always earch there first :) > ... You don't even list Fujitsu. > --Chuck ----- Reply: Nary a mention of Falco either, for that matter... mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 15:36:31 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:36:31 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> Message-ID: >> ... You don't even list Fujitsu. > > Nary a mention of Falco either, for that matter... I am sure Richard would be more than happy to let you add these to the Wiki, guys. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 16:35:20 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:35:20 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: <20130128023159.GE3806@brevard.conman.org> References: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <1359310597.35276.YahooMailNeo@web124904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130128023159.GE3806@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 28 January 2013 02:31, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated: >> The e-mail below is a perfect example of why I do not like bottom posting >> >> I had to scroll through Liam's original e-mail then Dave's complete >> response to get to Liam's response to that response. > > And I hate having to scroll down to see the relative context, then > scrolling back up to read your reply. Well, quite. > I'm sorry, but unlike you, I cannot > maintain the context of three dozen threads in my inbox (I subscribe to more > than just this list). I find having some context easier on me, even if it > is dozens of lines. Indeed. Perhaps it is only lightweight email users who top-quote? We know that they do not understand the niceties of quoting, trimming or context; perhaps it is a more general thing, that they do not really grok the fullness of email and treat it like Facebook messages or SMS or something similarly ephemeral. > And this is an example of why I hate top posting. You, who bitched about > Liam not trimming his reply have not even bothered to trim your reply here, > and included 112 lines of extraneous emails. Indeed. But they were /below/ what he wrote -- and thus, out of sight, out of mind. Somebody's else's problem. "You are in my way, and anything I do to reduce that is right, even if it causes you massive inconvenience" - the top-quoters' mindset all over. > Personally, I blame Microsoft Outlook for this, making it all to damn easy > to post a pithy one line reply and not even bothering to trim the remaining > email. Quite. Microsoft's Internet client software ranges between poor and abysmal. The IE team's old email client - MSIMN as was, later Outlook Express - was OK for the mid-1990s, with no spam checking etc. But everything since then has ranged from awful to utterly unusable crap. Unfortunately, there are tens of millions of clueless drones in offices who know nothing else and thing it is how this stuff is meant to work. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 16:40:17 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:40:17 +0000 Subject: IMAP Mail Sorting/Filtering (Was: Top Posting, was Re: What was that) In-Reply-To: <20130128211904.GA2671@RawFedDogs.net> References: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <51046F69.5050102@neurotica.com> <20130128211904.GA2671@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On 28 January 2013 21:19, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:14:51AM +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > >> IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it couldn't do is the rules. > > Really? My current Dovecot sieve script is 1,411 lines long. It sort > messages from various mailing lists into 236 different mailboxes. At the > moment I have 3,042,355 messages total in those mailboxes. I'm an e-mail > pack rat. Interesting. Not an option unless you run your own mailserver, I guess, or have shell-level access to one. But I am afraid that I am a child of the 1990s in email terms. I want a GUI and a couple of forms to fill in. Many years ago, I was able to make config changes to sendmail.cf and have it work, and was happy to write shell scripts to automate stuff. Today, I avoid that kind of thing if at all possible. But you make a good point. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 28 17:24:57 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:57 -0600 Subject: SAGE card decks (was: Vector art on SAGE) In-Reply-To: References: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201301282330.r0SNUJgr079465@mx1.ezwind.net> At 01:22 PM 1/28/2013, Richard wrote: >No matter what the topic, I would like to see *any* SAGE card decks archived. I would assume they were very, very tightly controlled, and no one was walking out of the facility with a deck. Has anyone ever suggested otherwise? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 28 18:11:45 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:11:45 -0500 Subject: IMAP Mail Sorting/Filtering (Was: Top Posting, was Re: What was that) In-Reply-To: References: <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <51046F69.5050102@neurotica.com> <20130128211904.GA2671@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <510713C1.6020009@neurotica.com> On 01/28/2013 05:40 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> IMAP could do the folders, sure. But what it couldn't do is the rules. >> >> Really? My current Dovecot sieve script is 1,411 lines long. It sort >> messages from various mailing lists into 236 different mailboxes. At the >> moment I have 3,042,355 messages total in those mailboxes. I'm an e-mail >> pack rat. > > Interesting. Not an option unless you run your own mailserver, I > guess, or have shell-level access to one. > > But I am afraid that I am a child of the 1990s in email terms. I want > a GUI and a couple of forms to fill in. Sometimes having a flexible configuration, advanced functionality, high performance, and security require a little bit of work. > Many years ago, I was able to make config changes to sendmail.cf and > have it work, and was happy to write shell scripts to automate stuff. > Today, I avoid that kind of thing if at all possible. I do it too. My approach is to do it and make sure I do it right, so I only have to do it once. Yes, it does require some upkeep, but it's a few hours' work per year, which isn't much...and that's providing a lot of functionality and services for upwards of a hundred people. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 28 18:15:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:15:58 -0500 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: What was that In-Reply-To: References: <51016C00.3030208@west.net> <20130124094712.K75353@shell.lmi.net> <62195A566E3A4AA59F10DC2DC8FE7292@tababook> <5102C316.80604@neurotica.com> <5103329C.3070304@neurotica.com> <51033C97.2030608@neurotica.com> <5105E2D6.3010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <510714BE.6050506@neurotica.com> On 01/28/2013 01:39 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: >> Of course you are correct. Indeed, a webmail program is, on the >> server side, a mail client with a remotely-implemented GUI. This being >> a technical forum, I'd be shocked, and a bit dismayed, if anyone here >> didn't know that. >> > > I'm not surprised by what people willing try to not believe. I'm with you there. >> In my case, I run my own mail server. Whatever mail client(s) I use, >> be they textual, graphical, or graphical-with-a-remote-GUI like a >> webmail client, is still backed by the mail server that I control.. > > LOL. Well that puts you out of the range of most people - even for this > list. Nonsense. It can be set up in an afternoon. A few hours if you've done it before. > I used to run my own mail server in my basement. I had exactly the comfort > of total control you have. But the machines seemed to sense when I would > be away, and always choose to wedge up then. After too many times talking > a 7 year old through rebooting the server rack in the scary corner of the > basement, I punted and someone with 24/7 ops handle it. Jeeze man, what were you running?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 28 18:19:04 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:19:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Jan 27, 13 11:23:39 pm Message-ID: > I am trying to find some floppies with spare tracks and then analyse them o= > n a PC, hopefully someone has been there already and can shed some light on= > the mechanism used. I'd also be interested in knowign this. One of the docuemtned bugs in my LIF utilities for linus is that they don't handle the bad track repalcements. Quite simply all the floppies I've seen have been perfect. -tony From slandon110 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:44:41 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:44:41 -0500 Subject: Seeking old Televideo Gear Message-ID: <51071B79.2090803@gmail.com> Hey guys, Im seeking old televideo gear, Terminals, Systems stuff like t hat. Really digging this old televideo term I got Steve From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 19:16:23 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:16:23 -0800 Subject: So what is this thing? Message-ID: <510722E7.5020906@gmail.com> eBay item# 230917408086. This is one of Sellam's lost items and it's interestingin that it appears to be an S-100 machine made by HP. The cabinet definitely looks like HP, the boards not so much, although a couple seem to have gold-plated traces that look HP-ish. I've never heard of this machine before, and I can find no information about it on the 'net. I'venever heard of HP making an S-100 machine, it seems out of character for them :). Anyone have any insights here? - Josh From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 28 20:37:11 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:11 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > >> ... You don't even list Fujitsu. > > > > Nary a mention of Falco either, for that matter... > > I am sure Richard would be more than happy to let you add these to the > Wiki, guys. Ding ding ding! Somebody finally understands what a wiki is about! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 28 20:38:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:38:55 -0700 Subject: SAGE card decks (was: Vector art on SAGE) In-Reply-To: <201301282330.r0SNUJgr079465@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297@mx1.ezwind.net> <201301282330.r0SNUJgr079465@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201301282330.r0SNUJgr079465 at mx1.ezwind.net>, John Foust writes: > At 01:22 PM 1/28/2013, Richard wrote: > > >No matter what the topic, I would like to see *any* SAGE card decks archived . > > I would assume they were very, very tightly controlled, and no one was > walking out of the facility with a deck. Has anyone ever suggested otherwise ? It's been 30 years since the last SAGE installation was decomissioned. It's been 40+ years since the SAGE contained any technology that was competitive. I would expect that some decks survive and could easily be declassified at this time, if necessary. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 20:46:38 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:46:38 -0200 Subject: HP Happy Day! :D References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> Message-ID: <2E326E6029504E018AB8CE185FF6F847@tababook> Today was a happy day! A good friend of mine called me on his house, because he found "some HP junk" and wanted me to drag it out. And I found: - 10269A in good condition - 64683A Z80 module - 64655A 8085 module - 64653A 8086/8088 module - 9 pod "hydra" cables for the 16500C - More than a hundred (!!!) grabbers, although the old round type - A pack of pods which I don't know what for: 10248C, 15454A, 15455A. 15456A. 15452A, Not HP related, I got a complete set of tools for 1240/12xx (color model) Tektronix Logic Analysers, with 8086 pod, 80186 pod, 80286 pod (all in mint condition), mostly (if not) all the ROM packs, the 64K ram expansion, serial/parallel expansions, common pods, the whole nine yards! Just misses the analyser itself (I got it early, but it had the main processor board fried by the supercap eletrolite which leaked) and some more junk, a Fluke 900 module, some brazilian emulators from Entelebra and some books/wires. The 10269A and the 64653A I gave it to a friend who I gave a 1631D years before. Hope it will be of some use (if he can find the inverse assemblers for his analyser) I have some questions...The Z80 module seems to have a bad cable, and I got a new cable named A8907. I know there is a good chance of this 8907 being just a datecode. Does anyone has the schematics of the cable? Any way I can test it beyond testing pin-a-pin? Is someone in need of the fluke and tektronix parts? I don't think I'll use it in a lifetime. Remember I'm in Brazil :o) Where the other HP pods I got are used? I know some are for the data pattern generator, but these are the output probes. What about the inputs? Can they be modified to use on my pattern generator blades from 16500C? Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 21:02:01 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:02:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SAGE card decks (was: Vector art on SAGE) In-Reply-To: References: <201301271914.r0RJEHal026646@mx1.ezwind.net> <201301281706.r0SH6Mhx042297@mx1.ezwind.net> <201301282330.r0SNUJgr079465@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20130128185931.P78037@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > I would expect that some decks survive and could easily be > declassified at this time, if necessary. Due to National Security issues, how long will that pin-up girl be classified? "First"??!? I'm sure that there was more than that well before they left the development lab. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 28 21:02:10 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 03:02:10 +0000 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/28/13 4:50 AM, "David Riley" wrote: >On Jan 28, 2013, at 6:32 AM, MG wrote: > >> On 27-jan-2013 23:29, Ian King wrote: >>> If people have requests for software on LCM's VAX-11/780-5, please >>> don't hesitate to ask. I want to see it be a useful resource in >>> the community. >>> -- Ian >> >> That sounds excellent. I haven't heard of that system before. Where >> and how can I access it? (Or perhaps a web site with administrative >> contact information and such?) > >http://livingcomputermuseum.org > >Get Involved->Request a Login > >(I'd link it directly, but it's an ugly link that might well change >in the future; the webmaster might consider putting a redirect at >something like /get_a_login that can be permalinked). > > >- Dave > > > Good suggestion - thanks! BTW and back to the original topic, I'm looking forward to meeting with FAFNER's owner on Saturday. -- Ian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 28 22:08:50 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:08:50 -0500 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? - Re: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> Message-ID: <51074B52.9070201@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/01/13 9:37 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > William Donzelli writes: > >>>> ... You don't even list Fujitsu. >>> >>> Nary a mention of Falco either, for that matter... >> >> I am sure Richard would be more than happy to let you add these to the >> Wiki, guys. > > Ding ding ding! > > Somebody finally understands what a wiki is about! Well you have to give them time to come around to new ideas. It was only invented in 1994.* --Toby * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 28 22:32:54 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:32:54 -0500 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? - Re: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51074B52.9070201@telegraphics.com.au> References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> <51074B52.9070201@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130129043254.GA17376@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:08:50PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >>Somebody finally understands what a wiki is about! > >Well you have to give them time to come around to new ideas. It was >only invented in 1994.* (Assuming you don't count the :INFO system at MIT, which came much earlier.) John Wilson D Bit From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 23:19:49 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:19:49 -0800 Subject: Outbound Notebook battery Message-ID: <51075BF5.3010007@gmail.com> Hi all -- Snagged an Outbound Notebook (Series 200) this week. The Outbound is aMacintosh clone laptop, mine came with ROMs borrowed from a Mac Plus, 4mb of RAM and a 50Mhz 68030 CPU. From what I've read it uses "standard camcorder batteries" but I have absolutely noidea what this "standard" might be. Anyone know anything about these beasts? I'm also going to need to track down an AC adapter but that should be easier to source, it's 22VDC @ .82A according to the rear of the machine... Thanks, Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 28 23:26:08 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:26:08 -0500 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? - Re: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <20130129043254.GA17376@dbit.dbit.com> References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> <51074B52.9070201@telegraphics.com.au> <20130129043254.GA17376@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <51075D70.8090007@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/01/13 11:32 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:08:50PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Somebody finally understands what a wiki is about! >> >> Well you have to give them time to come around to new ideas. It was >> only invented in 1994.* > > (Assuming you don't count the :INFO system at MIT, which came much earlier.) > Is it a wiki? --T > John Wilson > D Bit > From wilson at dbit.com Tue Jan 29 00:12:23 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 01:12:23 -0500 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? - Re: ADM-3A reminiscences - was Re: more shameless classic trafficking (NOT Sellam's stuff) In-Reply-To: <51075D70.8090007@telegraphics.com.au> References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> <51074B52.9070201@telegraphics.com.au> <20130129043254.GA17376@dbit.dbit.com> <51075D70.8090007@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130129061223.GA18294@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:26:08AM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >>(Assuming you don't count the :INFO system at MIT, which came much earlier.) > >Is it a wiki? Editable by anyone ... cross-machine links (over the network file system -- I think it was called MLDEV?) ... what else would it need? John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 01:08:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:08:40 -0800 Subject: So what is this thing? In-Reply-To: <510722E7.5020906@gmail.com> References: <510722E7.5020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51077578.7030306@sydex.com> On 01/28/2013 05:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > eBay item# 230917408086. > > This is one of Sellam's lost items and it's interestingin that it > appears to be an S-100 machine made by HP. The cabinet definitely looks > like HP, the boards not so much, although a couple seem to have > gold-plated traces that look HP-ish. I've never heard of this machine > before, and I can find no information about it on the 'net. I'venever > heard of HP making an S-100 machine, it seems out of character for them > :). Anyone have any insights here? Isn't/wasn't the Zeta brand a line of HP plotters (big plotters)? So would this be the controller for one such? --Chuck From roe at liveblockauctions.com Mon Jan 28 09:49:09 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 09:49:09 -0600 Subject: pdp11/34 rack mounting Message-ID: <51069DF5.7050604@liveblockauctions.com> I've got a pdp11/34 in a BA-11L mounting box, and I'm trying to find out what rack hardware I need to rackmount the beast. If anyone has info (part numbers, etc), or can point me at a resource (or even a supplier), I would much appreciate it. Thanks. -- Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802 *Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100* From earl at retrobits.com Mon Jan 28 10:57:30 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:57:30 -0800 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous compilers, if you're into languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-) - Earl From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Jan 28 15:09:05 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:09:05 +0100 Subject: 9 track, 1600 BPI, Tapes from 1992 / 1993 ?? References: Message-ID: <974B09F1B234499B8B428F310986C15F@medion> A friend of mine has a serie of such tapes Six 9 track, 1600 Bpi, tapes, ( large ones : 2400 feet ) Labeled 1992 / 1993 SPOT2 Any guess what is / was "SPOT2" ??? From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:26:56 2013 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:26:56 +0000 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors Message-ID: Glen & Christain, many thanks for the information, and the pointer to the 9895A service manual at http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=262The manual also has this to say: p.37:Before reading or writing a sector of data, the controller must position the read /write head of the disc drive over the desired sector. To do this, the controller sends signals to the disc drive to step the head to the desired track. The controller then begins to read the disc. Track and sector information is stored as a preamble to each sector, and the disc is formatted in a manner to allow the controller to detect the beginning of a preamble. On finding a preamble, the Z80A first checks that the track number is correct. If not, it will continue to step the head until the correct track is found. p.43 has figure 2-3 Track Format. This shows each sector consists of (ignoring gaps):ID Field made up of:- Sync up Bytes- Address Mark (AM) [in other manuals refered to as IDAM]- ID Information (bytes indicating the logical track, head and sector address)- CRCData field made up of:- Sync up bytes- Address mark [in other manuals known as Data Address Mark or DAM]- Data- CRC p.45 Address MarksID AM : Data pattern = !70Defective Track AM : Data pattern = !F0 At the command set level, a clear D bit indicates an ID AM in the ID field, and a set D bit indicates a defective track AM in the ID field. p.86 Start of Appendix A, 9895A Disc Memory Command Set p.89 - has description of the D bit. p.95 Shows the Command Table. p.105 'Request Logical Address' Purpose: The 9895A returns bytes indicating the current target address. This command is used to determine the address of the offending sector after a data error has occurred. p.106 'Request Physical Address'.Purpose: The 9895A returns bytes indicating the physical cylinder on which the head actuator is positioned. This is useful for calculating the number of invisible tracks between the outer-most track and the current track. This is done by subtracting the physical cylinder address from the target cylinder address. P1.31 Describes the Initialize command, and P.133 the Format command. Together these sections describe use of the D but and invisible tracks. To conclude, information such as the IDAM content won't be readable by a PC with a normal FDC, so this approach looks limited. I am in touch with Ansgar reading his wonderful hpdir project, which I am using with my Series 80 disks on an 82901M drive, so will point him here for a bit more light reading ;-) Regards,John From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:40:14 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:40:14 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Terry Stewart > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:02:48 +1300 > Subject: My BBC Model B on Youtube > The best of British in my collection. The capable and classy BBC Model > B Microcomputer System. > http://youtu.be/r9oAAcRk2Ys The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a BBC Model B Issue 4 in the British Collection. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/foreign-market-personal-computers/bbc-model-b-issue-4 -- Michael Thompson From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 29 01:34:27 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:34:27 +0000 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: > The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous compilers, if you're into > languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since > I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big > iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-) It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!" From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jan 29 01:48:13 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:48:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 9 track, 1600 BPI, Tapes from 1992 / 1993 ?? In-Reply-To: <974B09F1B234499B8B428F310986C15F@medion> Message-ID: <1359445693.74185.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, GerardCJAT wrote: > Labeled? 1992 / 1993???SPOT2? Any > guess what is / was "SPOT2"?????? Possibly related to to the French company Spot Image and SPOT satellite imagery? --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jan 29 01:48:13 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:48:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 9 track, 1600 BPI, Tapes from 1992 / 1993 ?? In-Reply-To: <974B09F1B234499B8B428F310986C15F@medion> Message-ID: <1359445693.74185.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, GerardCJAT wrote: > Labeled? 1992 / 1993???SPOT2? Any > guess what is / was "SPOT2"?????? Possibly related to to the French company Spot Image and SPOT satellite imagery? --Bill From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 01:51:53 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:51:53 +0000 Subject: Outbound Notebook battery In-Reply-To: <51075BF5.3010007@gmail.com> References: <51075BF5.3010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 January 2013 05:19, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Snagged an Outbound Notebook (Series 200) this week. The Outbound is > aMacintosh clone laptop, mine came with ROMs borrowed from a Mac Plus, 4mb > of RAM and a 50Mhz 68030 CPU. From what I've read it uses "standard > camcorder batteries" but I have absolutely noidea what this "standard" might > be. > > Anyone know anything about these beasts? I'm also going to need to track > down an AC adapter but that should be easier to source, it's 22VDC @ .82A > according to the rear of the machine... > > Thanks, > Josh Oh, cool. I remember reading about those at the time. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 01:52:59 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:52:59 +0000 Subject: Outbound Notebook battery In-Reply-To: References: <51075BF5.3010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 January 2013 07:51, Liam Proven wrote: > > Oh, cool. I remember reading about those at the time. Hmmm. I didn't know Ctrl-Enter did a "send" in Gmail. Sorry about that. I meant to say - is this any use: http://lowendmac.com/clones/outbound.html (Bunch of links at the bottom, note.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 02:15:36 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:15:36 +0100 Subject: pdp11/34 rack mounting In-Reply-To: <51069DF5.7050604@liveblockauctions.com> References: <51069DF5.7050604@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <44f394f7e77ff91dae1f532e50991c53.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > I've got a pdp11/34 in a BA-11L mounting box, and I'm trying to find out > what rack hardware I need to rackmount the beast. If anyone has info > (part numbers, etc), or can point me at a resource (or even a supplier), > I would much appreciate it. > > Thanks. > > > -- Did it come with the outer box as well? That is mounted directly to the front & back posts of a (Dec) rack. If you only have the inner frame, you might try to use 2 angle bars mounted to the sides of the rack and let it rest on it. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 29 04:04:14 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:04:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, John S wrote: > To conclude, information such as the IDAM content won't be readable by a > PC with a normal FDC, so this approach looks limited. I am in touch with Read again. It *is* the same as the regular floppy format used in PCs. I know that, I am reading and writing HP floppies with my PC under Linux (using libdsk for direct FDC access). I have written a small utility that reads/writes HP 9122C disk images (using HP's native track layout, not the normal "PC" HD floppy layout), see ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/utils/hp9122c.c You may change the geometry table for other track layouts. Christian From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 29 04:23:17 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:23:17 +0100 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> On 01/29/2013 08:34 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: >> The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous compilers, if you're into >> languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since >> I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big >> iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-) > It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!" > > Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what does? /P From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 29 04:39:15 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:39:15 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:23:17AM +0100, Pontus wrote: > On 01/29/2013 08:34 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > >On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: > >>The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous compilers, if you're into > >>languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since > >>I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big > >>iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-) > >It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!" > > > > > > Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what > does? Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 05:06:02 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:06:02 +0100 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: <5107AD1A.2060305@xs4all.nl> On 29-jan-2013 11:39, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled > and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. You could've also just said: 'Cuz IBM sez so! - MG From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 06:43:14 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:43:14 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2013, at 5:23, Pontus wrote: > On 01/29/2013 08:34 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 08:57:30AM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: >>> The LCM's VAX is a lot of fun. There are numerous compilers, if you're into >>> languages. I very much appreciate the service. It's even more fun since >>> I've actually seen the machine is person - I love knowing there is some big >>> iron in a room far away that I'm timesharing on :-) >> It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!" > > Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what does? It's not a mainframe, but I'd still call it "big iron" relative to the size of most machines today. The LCM's KL10 (which, by the way, doesn't seem to be responding over Telnet) would certainly qualify. Fun exercise in semantics: does the TOAD-1 qualify? - Dave From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 09:04:24 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:04:24 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 29 January 2013 05:39, wrote: > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and > doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. > By that logic, the only machines that count are the System/360 Model 85 and the 195. Since the other S/360s and S/370s were air-cooled. This is based on what I've experienced by reading some miscellaneous manuals, if the later System/370 machines have watercooling, I have no idea. Cheers, Christian From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 09:08:11 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:08:11 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 29 January 2013 07:43, David Riley wrote: > It's not a mainframe, but I'd still call it "big iron" relative to > the size of most machines today. The LCM's KL10 (which, > by the way, doesn't seem to be responding over Telnet) > would certainly qualify. Fun exercise in semantics: does the > TOAD-1 qualify? > Depends on whether you use the term "big iron" to refer exclusively to mainframes and superminis, or as any form of big system. In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely "big iron" as it is a descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe. In the latter case, not so much. Cheers, Christian From dgunix at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 09:12:01 2013 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:12:01 +0200 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002401cdfd94$0dbbefe0$2933cfa0$@xs4all.nl> References: <1359385289.10262.androidMobile@web180905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002401cdfd94$0dbbefe0$2933cfa0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Great topic. On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Ahh, now i know.. > > > > yep > > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In case you haven't figured out; this is spam. Don't open the URL. > > > -- > > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > > > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > > > The Computer Graphics Museum > > > The Terminals Wiki > > > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > > > > > > > > From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 29 09:18:13 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:18:13 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:04:24AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 29 January 2013 05:39, wrote: > > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and > > doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. > > > By that logic, the only machines that count are the System/360 Model > 85 and the 195. > > Since the other S/360s and S/370s were air-cooled. No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. Everywhere I ever worked until the CMOS days had watercooled machines and raised floor. That was the real "big iron" worthy of being called machines. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_intro4.html From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 29 09:22:12 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:22:12 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:08:11AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely "big iron" as it is a > descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe. DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK. It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-) Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 09:45:44 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:45:44 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: > No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I > remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through > S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more > powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. I do not know about that...I have a 4331, and it is slow as molasses and dry as a bone. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 09:52:43 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:52:43 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: > DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK. > It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron > from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-) > > Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. VAX 9000 was marketed as a mainframe. You may want to check your sources. I could write a post pointing out all the fails you have made in the past few posts, but I have a business to run (namely, so I can buy more mainframes). -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 29 10:03:27 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. > You've obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 10:03:50 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:03:50 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <23EEC25A-8D14-4F4D-9CD5-88E42BE9FFE2@gmail.com> On Jan 29, 2013, at 10:22 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:08:11AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > >> In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely "big iron" as it is a >> descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe. > > DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK. > It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron > from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-) > > Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. Are we really not calling PDP-10s mainframes just because they're not water-cooled? Some of the smaller ones (KS10 in particular) were certainly more of the mini variety, but the KL10s certainly meet the "lose a scope in it" rule of thumb, especially some of the larger setups. Additionally, I believe DEC marketed most of their 36-bit systems as mainframes as well as a number of the larger VAXen (especially the VAX9000). I'll be glad to debate the merit of calling a large VAX a "mainframe", though the 9000s certainly fit the subjective size parameters, but that's certainly the segment their marketing department was aiming at. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 29 10:05:03 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:05:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, William Donzelli wrote: >> No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I >> remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through >> S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more >> powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. > > I do not know about that...I have a 4331, and it is slow as molasses > and dry as a bone. > Will, got any pics of your machine? What's the difference between a 4331 and a 4331-K2? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 29 10:18:33 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:18:33 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20130129161833.GA19159@zoho.com> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:52:43AM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did AFAIK. > > It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX is big iron > > from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a 500-thread post ;-) > > > > Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. > > VAX 9000 was marketed as a mainframe. > > You may want to check your sources. I could write a post pointing out > all the fails you have made in the past few posts, but I have a > business to run (namely, so I can buy more mainframes). I normally killfile all your posts like many other people on the list but I am testing a new email client and this got through anyway. Here's the Ken Olsen interview at the Smithsonian. The word "mainframe" doesn't appear at all, but "mini" and "minicomputer" are words he uses to describe DEC. I think he knows better than you, although I concede later DEC marketers did make a feeble attempt to call the VAX 9000 a mainframe. http://americanhistory.si.edu/comphist/olsen.html Here's Gordon Bell's page at Microsoft. It's entitled "Minicomputer Industry Overview and Formation". You won't see Bell claiming DEC ever built a mainframe either. He realized DEC was in the minicomputer business. http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Digital/DECMuseum.htm Just because DEC's marketing people tried to convince people who never saw anything bigger than a mini they had a new mainframe doesn't make it real. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 11:17:34 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:17:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130129083336.E92445@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, John S wrote: > To conclude, information such as the IDAM content won't be readable by a > PC with a normal FDC, so this approach looks limited. I am in touch with > Ansgar reading his wonderful hpdir project, which I am using with my > Series 80 disks on an 82901M drive, so will point him here for a bit > more light reading ;-) PC WILL sense the IDAM. In "normal" read/write, the PC works the same. It steps to the track, finds a sector header, checks it, and if it is the one requested, reads/writes. The NEC chips even have a [little used] command to read sector header! (usually only needed if the track number in the sector header is inconsistent with the actual physical cylinder that you are on - such as this, or 48tpi/96tpi, 67.5tpi/135tpi mismatch, OR bizarre silliness along the lines of deliberate wrong head or sector numbers (looking at YOU DS Kaypro)) NOTE: The HP LIF "Bad Track" marking scheme is dependent on being able to successfully read part of the BAD TRACK to see the sector header mod that identifies it as a bad track. A track that is completely bad can not be marked as bad using that scheme. Logical track numbers not matching physical ones! Therefore, [hopefully?] to handle LIF "bad track"s: 1) step to the presumed track. 2) Try to read. If successful, then DONE. If (err#4) /*sectors found, but not the right ones*/, then read ID. else (not err#4) pocess error If ((Track# (from READID) shows as FFh) /*you have a "bad track"*/) || (track# is lower than expected)) /* due to a bad track earlier on the disk?*/ then /*move to the next track*/ (if (not last head) increment head, else (if on last head), zero head and step, STOP at end of disk!). /* if track number reads HIGHER than expected, possible seek error, try recalibrate (seek to 0) and back to #1 a few times*/ GOTO 2 /*retry read on what might now be the revised track*/ Have a user configurable "watchdog count". I like 10 retires (V THREE!), but on a known bad disk with soft errors, sometimes it is worth setting RETRIES to a higher number, or INFINITE! ("Recovery" mode: list known read errors, retry each on the list a few times, and repeatedly cycle through the list until all errors have been recovered) ! More details available on request From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 11:25:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:25:40 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> On 01/29/2013 02:23 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what > does? How big (and how many) MG sets does it take to power it, how many gallons/minute of chilled water does it take to keep it cool? If you suffer a power outage, how long do the CEs have to work on it to get it going again? I'd always considered VAX-en to be minicomputers. Does anyone remember the term "midi-computer?" Actually, most of these terms are ridiculous holdovers from a bygone age. "Microcomputer" used to have a specific meaning of a system whose CPU was integrated into an IC. Arguments could be brought forward that Beacon, with its mass of Xeon Phis is still a microcomputer--and a supercomputer--and a mainframe. It's a hopeless distinction. We can sit around and play Humpty-Dumpty attempting to define or redefine old terms of art, but that isn't going to change anything. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 29 11:30:02 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:30:02 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? Message-ID: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for driving a modern LCD? I seem to be accumulating numerous older pieces of gear that produce RGB output and space and reliability of the old tubes to which they connect is becoming more and more premium. Would like to be able to use an LCD as an alternative. A couple DEC VT240 came my way this weekend and they will need some TLC to restore but the VR240 that came along with them is in even worse shape. I'll give it my best shot but ability to use an LCD as Plan B would be nice. Any recomendations from success? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 11:30:09 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:30:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130129092624.A92445@shell.lmi.net> Obviously, BIG and MADE OF IRON. If extremely large, we should relax the iron requirement to handle silicon based lifeforms, etc. 'twould seem that we have already done so, and "IRON" is now only figrative. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 11:32:32 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:32:32 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: > Will, got any pics of your machine? What's the difference between a 4331 > and a 4331-K2? It is a beige brick. One red switch. That is all. Actually, mine is a model 2. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 11:47:36 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:47:36 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129161833.GA19159@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <20130129161833.GA19159@zoho.com> Message-ID: > I normally killfile all your posts like many other people on the list but I > am testing a new email client and this got through anyway. Yeah right whatever. > Here's the Ken Olsen interview at the Smithsonian. The word "mainframe" > doesn't appear at all, but "mini" and "minicomputer" are words he uses to > describe DEC. I think he knows better than you, although I concede later DEC > marketers did make a feeble attempt to call the VAX 9000 a mainframe. And all I claimed in my post was that the VAX 9000 was marketed as a mainframe. No other VAX were mentioned. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 11:54:46 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:54:46 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'd always considered VAX-en to be minicomputers. Does anyone remember the > term "midi-computer?" No, because the only people that used that term were people writing textbooks for schools. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 11:56:20 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:56:20 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: > It's a hopeless distinction. We can sit around and play Humpty-Dumpty > attempting to define or redefine old terms of art, but that isn't going to > change anything. That is right. Being a mainframe is a philosophy, not a machine. -- Will From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 12:02:26 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:02:26 +0100 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: From: "geneb" Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 5:03 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] > On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > >> Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. >> > You've obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :) > > g. Mini, micro, mainframe ... so what? As long as you enjoy the machine who cares what you (or other people) want to call it. Why must it fit in some predefined box? Amen! Those RA81 disk drives ARE heavy, some 67 kilos? Thank Goodness, my feet never felt their full (falling) weight. But I will be remembered to the fullest extend, because I have to move three RA81 next week ... plus RM03, TU77, two 11/70, one 11/10 and my "rebuilt" 11/60 ... I am counting the DECwriter III and VT55 as some of the "smaller items"! My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week will be the final haul from the old house. Storage is of course a major problem now, but ... looking at the sunny side, no more double mortgage payments every month, hurray! - Henk. From Mark at Misty.com Tue Jan 29 12:34:58 2013 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:34:58 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar Message-ID: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, I've been regretting not keeping my original Hazeltine terminal many year ago. Does anyone have one, broken or working, they might be looking to sell or trade? Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jan 29 12:58:41 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:58:41 +0100 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20130129195841.ed310ffaf349c43d30b073d0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:30:02 -0600 Chris Elmquist wrote: > Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with > sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for > driving a modern LCD? My modern, cheap and shitty LCD accespts RGB+SyncOnGreen at its VGA input just fine. Tested with a VAXstation 4000/90. If you really need to seperate sync pulses go for a LM1881. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 13:04:22 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: <1359182107.65794.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Jan 25, 13 10:35:07 pm Message-ID: <1359486262.80508.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Tony Duell > Why is there a variation in the video signal? Is this comparable to the ana= I may be telling you what you aready know, in which case I apologise. C: Repent sinner! Yes I've heard of ECL in whispers. Just that computer acronyms get recycled so much, I assumed it referred to something else... I've foudn that runnign computers form the mains helps with this :-) C: Outlets are always available. The monstrously long extension cord was not on that occasion. Do you know the model number of this HP moniotr? What is the input connector? Do you know if it works at all? The fact that it won't dispaly enything might be due to a fualt i nthe monitor. C: Can't remember the model #. It takes bnc inputs. Yes it did occur to me the monthtuh could be busted. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 29 13:10:41 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:10:41 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <00b501cdfe54$54f3e370$fedbaa50$@com> http://deadmeatmarketing.blogspot.com/2008/07/hazeltine-1510.html >From several years ago, but they say everything donated in will be put to use or sold. Who is the AAARC? Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G Thomas Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar Hi, I've been regretting not keeping my original Hazeltine terminal many year ago. Does anyone have one, broken or working, they might be looking to sell or trade? Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 13:15:23 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:15:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: do you need to tear the metal shutter off of a modern 3.5: floppy for it to work in an SMC-70? Message-ID: <1359486923.91920.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> this I was told. Anyone? From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 29 13:25:44 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:25:44 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week > will be the final haul from the old house. I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up a "server room". Here is a preview: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ /P From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 29 13:32:22 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:32:22 +0100 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <510823C6.4020303@update.uu.se> On 01/29/2013 01:43 PM, David Riley wrote: > It's not a mainframe, but I'd still call it "big iron" relative to Yikes, had I know this would bring up the discussion of "what constitutes a mainframe" I would not have posted... sorry folks /P From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 13:39:28 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:39:28 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> On 01/29/2013 09:54 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I'd always considered VAX-en to be minicomputers. Does anyone remember the >> term "midi-computer?" > > No, because the only people that used that term were people writing > textbooks for schools. Here's a CW article from 1975 that even headlines the term: http://tinyurl.com/bx5yypw It makes interesting reading and the first paragraph is particularly germane to the discussion. But to be perfectly fair, it *was* the 70s. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 13:52:52 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:52:52 -0600 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <51082894.3050301@gmail.com> On 01/29/2013 09:22 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big iron. Sure they are. Mainframes are just bigger iron, that's all. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 14:04:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:04:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> On 29 January 2013 05:39, wrote: > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and > doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"?? machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"??? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 14:06:29 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:06:29 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <001301cdfe5c$23a42a20$6aec7e60$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Pontus > Verzonden: dinsdag 29 januari 2013 20:26 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] > > On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week will be > > the final haul from the old house. > > I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get the > new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up a "server > room". Here is a preview: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ > > /P Mmm, you won't have heating problems there ;) -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 14:08:27 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:08:27 +0100 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <001401cdfe5c$6a172340$3e4569c0$@xs4all.nl> > Mini, micro, mainframe ... so what? As long as you enjoy the machine who cares > what you (or other people) want to call it. Why must it fit in some predefined > box? > Amen! Those RA81 disk drives ARE heavy, some 67 kilos? > Thank Goodness, my feet never felt their full (falling) weight. > But I will be remembered to the fullest extend, because I have to move three > RA81 next week ... plus RM03, TU77, two 11/70, one 11/10 and my "rebuilt" > 11/60 ... I am counting the DECwriter III and VT55 as some of the "smaller > items"! > My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week will be the final > haul from the old house. Storage is of course a major problem now, but ... > looking at the sunny side, no more double mortgage payments every month, > hurray! > > - Henk. Gefeliciteerd Henk, Now you can go on.. -Rik From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:17:01 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:17:01 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 29 January 2013 10:18, wrote: > No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I > remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through > S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more > powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. > Based on the 1979 IBM sales manual (go find it on BitSavers), the only models of System/370 that mention water cooling are the 168, 3032 and 3033. Also, based on the 1974 System/360 physical planning installation manual, the only two System/360 models that required liquid cooling were... the model 85 and model 195. So, by your logic of "big iron" only counting as an IBM machine that requires a raised floor and watercooling... the label only applies to the aforementioned machines. I would think, though I am most definitely not an expert, that a System/360 Model 65 counts as a mainframe and as big iron, doesn't it? Cheers, Christian P.S. Both manuals, as well as other manuals all mention that any of the machines can be installed without a raised floor, if safety precautions are taken, and accomodations made for cabling the machines on a non-raised floor. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:21:52 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:21:52 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <00b501cdfe54$54f3e370$fedbaa50$@com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <00b501cdfe54$54f3e370$fedbaa50$@com> Message-ID: <51082F60.4090806@gmail.com> On 1/29/2013 11:10 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://deadmeatmarketing.blogspot.com/2008/07/hazeltine-1510.html > > From several years ago, but they say everything donated in will be put to > use or sold. > Who is the AAARC? > > Cindy Croxton > > An electronic recycling outfit in Alameda, California. I actually ended up getting that 1510 from them many years ago. I passed it on to someone else a couple of years later. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 29 14:27:13 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <001301cdfe5c$23a42a20$6aec7e60$@xs4all.nl> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> <001301cdfe5c$23a42a20$6aec7e60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >> room". Here is a preview: >> >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ >> >> /P I'm very jealous of that raised flooring. *wistful sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:28:16 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:28:16 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: "Pontus" Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:25 PM To: Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] > On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week >> will be the final haul from the old house. > > I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get > the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up a > "server room". Here is a preview: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ > > /P Nice pictures, love to see the other sides :-) A raised floor is also nice! Those tiles are no good either for your back! First I need to save some money to relax the mortgage on my current house, then we (my wife and I) will move for the last time(...) How the house looks is her department, as long as there is at least 40 square meters (60 is better) well insolated, heated and strong floor for my approx 7 tons of DEC stuff. I will take some pictures in the next weeks of things that appeared I had completely forgotten about. For example the RRD40 CD-ROM drive *with* those peculiar "claw" disc (disk?) holders, and an RM03 Test Unit. I even had forgotten that I have an 11/23+ , a new VT101 in its original carton storage box and the two original KM11 maintenance boards with four switches and light bulbs to diagnose the 11/20, 11/40, and RK05. The latter was a real surprise, I do know I have Guy Sotomayor's (I hope I got that correct) KM11 replica 2-board kit with the light mask plates, but really did not know I also had the original ones! So, when I am recovering my back, there will be time to take pictures :-) - Henk. PS. More pictures from anybody are always nice to look at. Thanks Pontus. I'd say "more, more, more"! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:35:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:35:32 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> On 29/01/2013 15:18, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:04:24AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 29 January 2013 05:39, wrote: >>> Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and >>> doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. >>> >> By that logic, the only machines that count are the System/360 Model >> 85 and the 195. >> >> Since the other S/360s and S/370s were air-cooled. > No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I > remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through > S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more > powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. How can you manage to get so many misconceptions into a couple of sentences... Over the years IBM have slipped in and out of water cooling. The "lowly" 43xx machines were all air cooled. S/360 and most S/370 were mostly air cooled. Water cooling is expensive.... The high end VAX machines are faster than the low end 4331 which is real sluggard when it comes to non-word aligned operations (as is the original 9370) but I am note sure I would class either the 4331 or the 9371 as "mainframes"... When I worked for the Natural Environment Research Council I am sure we always rated out single CPU 4381 model 4 about the same as our biggest VAX., which I think was a 8000 but I can't actually remember. Again I am not too sure if the 4381 is a main frame or a very big fast mid-range box, but in its day it was popular... Earlier than that we certainly considered out Honeywell L66 a mainframe but that wasn't water cooled either. ... I don't think there is real definition of a Mainframe, its what you want it to be at the time.... > Everywhere I ever worked until the CMOS days had watercooled machines and > raised floor. That was the real "big iron" worthy of being called machines. > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_intro4.html > > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 14:39:48 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:39:48 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> On 01/29/2013 12:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? Yes, but what cools the freon? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:43:12 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:43:12 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <51083460.3030007@gmail.com> On 29/01/2013 20:17, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 29 January 2013 10:18, wrote: >> No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I >> remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through >> S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more >> powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. >> > Based on the 1979 IBM sales manual (go find it on BitSavers), the only > models of System/370 that mention water cooling are the 168, 3032 and > 3033. > > Also, based on the 1974 System/360 physical planning installation > manual, the only two System/360 models that required liquid cooling > were... the model 85 and model 195. > > > So, by your logic of "big iron" only counting as an IBM machine that > requires a raised floor and watercooling... the label only applies to > the aforementioned machines. > > I would think, though I am most definitely not an expert, that a > System/360 Model 65 counts as a mainframe and as big iron, doesn't it? > > > Cheers, > Christian > > > P.S. Both manuals, as well as other manuals all mention that any of > the machines can be installed without a raised floor, if safety > precautions are taken, and accomodations made for cabling the machines > on a non-raised floor. I ran a 4361 in a college class room without a raised floor. Total pain but IBM had no issues installing it... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 29 14:51:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:51:52 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <51083668.4080103@neurotica.com> On 01/29/2013 03:17 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> No. Every series until the IBM CMOS machines was water cooled as far as I >> remember although not every model in every line was water cooled. Up through >> S/390 and including the ES/9000. Even the lowly 43XX (which was more >> powerful than the biggest VAX ever made) was watercooled. >> > Based on the 1979 IBM sales manual (go find it on BitSavers), the only > models of System/370 that mention water cooling are the 168, 3032 and > 3033. I can tell you that the 3090 is as well. Likely a whole lot of others, but definitely the 3090. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 29 14:51:49 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:51:49 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <51082F60.4090806@gmail.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <00b501cdfe54$54f3e370$fedbaa50$@com> <51082F60.4090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ed01cdfe62$75cf9180$616eb480$@com> Small world! Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of mc68010 Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1510 or similar On 1/29/2013 11:10 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://deadmeatmarketing.blogspot.com/2008/07/hazeltine-1510.html > > From several years ago, but they say everything donated in will be > put to use or sold. > Who is the AAARC? > > Cindy Croxton > > An electronic recycling outfit in Alameda, California. I actually ended up getting that 1510 from them many years ago. I passed it on to someone else a couple of years later. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 14:54:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:54:52 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5108371C.2010405@xs4all.nl> On 29-jan-2013 20:25, Pontus wrote: > I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get > the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up > a "server room". Here is a preview: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ Nice SGIs! - MG From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 29 15:04:41 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:04:41 +0100 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002601cdfe64$45839b50$d08ad1f0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Fred Cisin > Verzonden: dinsdag 29 januari 2013 21:04 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] > > On 29 January 2013 05:39, wrote: > > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled > > and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. > > freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? > machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"?? > machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"??? > No no, you don't get it, if it isn't tube based it never can be "Big Iron" ;P Semiconductors and non-delay-line- or mercury based memories and other modernity's don't belong in 'BIG IRON' .. -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 29 14:41:57 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:41:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jan 29, 13 11:04:14 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, John S wrote: > > To conclude, information such as the IDAM content won't be readable by a > > PC with a normal FDC, so this approach looks limited. I am in touch with Yes. The 5.25" and 3.5W HP drive units use normal FDC ICs. I think Western Digital ones. They are hard-wired in MFM-only mode. Although the 3.5" disk rotates at 600rpm (twice the speed od a PC 3.5" disk), the data rate is twice as high too. so the actual bit denstiy on the floipy disk is unchanged. HP disks can be read/written in PC drives. I don;t know what hte 9895 uses, I've never been insdie one. The older 9885 (custom 16 bit host interface) usesa coupel of boads of TTL and an HP Nenocotroller chip. I suspect it does normal FM (single density) encoding. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 29 15:02:24 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:02:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 29, 13 11:30:02 am Message-ID: > > Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with > sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for > driving a modern LCD? Sivne you mention the VR241 later on, I guess yoy need to do scan rate conversion too. The VR241 is TV rate (around 15kHz horizontal). Mos, if not all, LCD TVs sold over here have analogue RGB inputs at TV rates on the SCART socket(s). It's not sync-on-green, so you may have al ittle fiddling aobut to do, but at least the inputs exist. I have alos seen, but have no experience of, a SCART to HDMI interface unit. I assume tht has analogue RGB inputs on the SCART connector. > > I seem to be accumulating numerous older pieces of gear that produce RGB > output and space and reliability of the old tubes to which they connect > is becoming more and more premium. Would like to be able to use an > LCD as an alternative. > > A couple DEC VT240 came my way this weekend and they will need some TLC to > restore but the VR240 that came along with them is in even worse shape. > I'll give it my best shot but ability to use an LCD as Plan B would > be nice. > Be warned that the VR241 is not easy to work on. The switch-mode power supply is mostly on the live side of the isolation barrier and it is driven by the horixontal oscillaotr (presuambly to prevent paterning from the SPMSU osicilaltor nd horizotnal oscillator beating against each other) via a winding o nthe flyback transofrmer which provides isolation bnetwene mains and output sides. For startup there's a multivibrator oscilaltor on the PSU board which is disabled when a capacitor shcages up. Therefore, for the PSU to run, not only doe it have ot be workign properly, but the horixotnal driver nad output stanges have to be workign too. Not easy to trace fualts... IIRC it's actually a Hitachi desing. Certianbly the thick-film module in the midle of the scna PCB looks like a Hitachi product. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:11:33 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:11:33 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Here's a CW article from 1975 that even headlines the term: > > http://tinyurl.com/bx5yypw > > It makes interesting reading and the first paragraph is particularly germane > to the discussion. > > But to be perfectly fair, it *was* the 70s. Ngram shows both minicomputer and mainframe *far* exceed midicomputer in usage during the 1970s. Midicomputer almost is not there. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 15:13:30 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:13:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20130129131149.I95390@shell.lmi.net> > You've obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :) Dropping a microcomputer can be painful. Dropping a minicomputer can be injurious. Dropping a mainframe can be fatal. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 29 15:21:24 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:21:24 -0800 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5102A293-065B-41CF-8BE2-9D3344EA8E3E@shiresoft.com> On Jan 29, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > The latter was a real surprise, I do know I have Guy Sotomayor's (I hope > I got that correct) KM11 replica 2-board kit with the light mask plates, but > really did not know I also had the original ones! Yes, you got it right! ;-) Cool about the originals! TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:23:14 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:23:14 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Over the years IBM have slipped in and out of water cooling. The "lowly" > 43xx machines were all air cooled. S/360 and most S/370 were mostly air > cooled. And even ES/9000 - only the 9021 high end machines were water cooled. The 9121 and 9221 were air cooled. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 15:24:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130129132339.K95390@shell.lmi.net> > > It's a hopeless distinction. We can sit around and play Humpty-Dumpty > > attempting to define or redefine old terms of art, but that isn't going to > > change anything. On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, William Donzelli wrote: > That is right. Being a mainframe is a philosophy, not a machine. THAT is the answer! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:25:05 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:25:05 -0500 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> <001301cdfe5c$23a42a20$6aec7e60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM, geneb wrote: >>> room". Here is a preview: >>> >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ Very nice. > I'm very jealous of that raised flooring. *wistful sigh* It's inspiring me to deploy mine. I have about 120 full and partial tiles and "mushroom stands" from a place I used to work that closed down a while back. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 29 15:32:36 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:32:36 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <51082F60.4090806@gmail.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <00b501cdfe54$54f3e370$fedbaa50$@com> <51082F60.4090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <686EB509-97E4-471C-9EC5-B847493E68C0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Jan 29, at 12:21 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 1/29/2013 11:10 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> http://deadmeatmarketing.blogspot.com/2008/07/hazeltine-1510.html >> >> From several years ago, but they say everything donated in will >> be put to >> use or sold. >> Who is the AAARC? >> >> Cindy Croxton >> > An electronic recycling outfit in Alameda, California. I actually > ended up getting that 1510 from them many years ago. I passed it on > to someone else a couple of years later. ACCRC - Alameda County Computer Resource Center http://www.accrc.org/ The 1510 looks a lot like the Hazeltines the UBC computing centre used when setting up a student terminal room in 1979 to phase out the keypunches and batch-mode equipment for student data-entry. Worst terminals I ever used. Cheap keyboard and blurry white-phosphor video. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 15:34:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:34:07 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <5108404F.8090808@sydex.com> On 01/29/2013 12:17 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > I would think, though I am most definitely not an expert, that a > System/360 Model 65 counts as a mainframe and as big iron, doesn't it? Definitions change with time and technology. Some would doubtless refer to a 360/30 as a mainframe. From a CDC 6600 or 7600 viewpoint, however, it was a little bitty machine. I'm not even certain if "minicomputer" had made it into general usage by 1965. Certainly there were other machines of that time (and earlier) that could be called "minicomputers"--for example, the Packard-Bell PB250--but never were--the term didn't exist then. And then how about the nitrogen-cooled boxes, such as the ETA 10? Physically smaller than many minicomputers. It's just pointless to invent distinctions. It's like the Supreme Court definition of pornography--I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 15:47:23 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> > > freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, but what cools the freon? the planet? From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 29 15:48:57 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:48:57 +0000 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118744FFB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: John Wilson Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:12 PM > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:26:08AM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >>> (Assuming you don't count the :INFO system at MIT, which came much >>> earlier.) >> Is it a wiki? > Editable by anyone ... cross-machine links (over the network file > system -- I think it was called MLDEV?) ... what else would it need? Wankers who remove edits by people who know what they're talking about? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 29 15:54:32 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:54:32 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874501A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: microcode at zoho.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:18 AM > Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the biggest VAX ever > made) was watercooled. Excuse me? I worked with 4341 and 4361 systems at UChicago, and a pair of 4381s at Stanford. There wasn't a water pipe to be seen. I think that you have no idea what you're talking about. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 29 15:59:14 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:59:14 -0600 Subject: old terminal pics Message-ID: <010601cdfe6b$e0ad6c30$a2084490$@com> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/OldTerminals If interested, email me and I will tell you if screen burned, if they power on, etc. Old kbd pics coming soon. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 29 16:00:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:00:51 -0700 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <5108371C.2010405@xs4all.nl> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> <5108371C.2010405@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <5108371C.2010405 at xs4all.nl>, MG writes: > On 29-jan-2013 20:25, Pontus wrote: > > I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get > > the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up > > a "server room". Here is a preview: > > > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ > > Nice SGIs! I count 2 indys, 1 Indigo^2 and an Octane. It's a little fuzzy, but there *may* be an IRIS [123]x00 workstation in the pic with the Octane. Am I missing something? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 16:01:50 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:01:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: do you need to tear the metal shutter off of a modern 3.5: floppy for it to work in an SMC-70? In-Reply-To: <1359486923.91920.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1359486923.91920.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130129135539.T95390@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > this I was told. Anyone? The VERY EARLIEST 3.5" floppies did not have shutters AT ALL. Later 3.5" floppies had a spring loaded manual shutter; you opened it manually, at which point it latched, and then there was a specific point on the disk to squeeze ("PINCH") that would release the latch and the spring would close it. I used an SMC-70 with those disks at Comdex one year. Later 3.5" floppies had the current "automatic" shutter. BUT, for many years, it still had the "PINCH" spot label. THEN, it just had an arrow pointing to that spot, but because that also indicated which end of the disk to put into the drive (DUH.), there wasn't a need to remove that mark. When I finally got an SMC-70 ~15 years ago, it had modern style drives. Didn't the 600RPM "full height" 3.5" drives (the earliest ("FIRST"??) 3.5" drives?) accept modern "auto-shutter" disks? From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 29 16:02:55 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:02:55 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874503C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: microcode at zoho.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:22 AM > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:08:11AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > wrote: >> In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely "big iron" as it is >> a descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe. > DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did > AFAIK. It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX > is big iron from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a > 500-thread post ;-) You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The PDP-6/PDP-10 family of 36-bit systems was clearly mainframe big iron, with a physical memory space larger and performance better than a 360/50. Further, in 1989, the VAX 9000 was introduced to the world as "Digital's First Mainframe" (at which the PDP-10 customers laughed derisively). > Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big > iron. Agreed. DEC made minis, which are not big iron. The revisionism on your part is in claiming that DEC did not make mainframes. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 29 16:08:30 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:08:30 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: In article <20130129183458.GA43507 at allie.home.misty.com>, Mark G Thomas writes: > Does anyone have one, broken or working, they might be looking to sell > or trade? They show up on ebay semi-regularly. However, terminals in general are showing up on ebay much less frequently now. I think we're at the point where terminals are just going to start becoming truly scarce, despite the fact that they were made in very large quantities in the 70s and 80s. The "Vintage Computer Museum Services" seller has parts to a 1500 right now. However, the guy keeps changing his ebay account name and his prices are usually $CRAZY, particularly for terminals. Apparently, he's taken to turning unsold terminals into a pile of unselling parts (motherboard, keyboard, video board) after junking the CRT and the enclosure. I guess that saves you storage space, but the real problem is that you aske $CRAZY for the terminal and went unsold, not that it took up a lot of space. If he would just reduce $CRAZY to $REASONABLE, the stuff would probably sell. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 16:15:12 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:15:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <002601cdfe64$45839b50$d08ad1f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <002601cdfe64$45839b50$d08ad1f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130129141350.E95390@shell.lmi.net> > > > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled > > > and doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. > > freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? > > machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"?? > > machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"??? On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > No no, you don't get it, TRUE > if it isn't tube based it never can be "Big Iron" > ;P > Semiconductors and non-delay-line- or mercury based memories and other > modernity's don't belong in 'BIG IRON' .. Ah! So something can be big, and can be iron, but modern stuff just doesn't have the "BIG IRON" character! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 17:06:38 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:06:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130129145602.R95390@shell.lmi.net> > I don't think there is real definition of a Mainframe, its what you want > it to be at the time.... What is especially funny is when computer ILLiterates, such as college administrators, think that it is two words "main frame", and think that that means the box that the computer is in, aka "the Tower". ("That Computer Hardware class should teach people how to open the tower, and replace boards in the main frame, so that they can fix things like "File Not Found". When I was in the classroom, I often had to fix things in the main frame.") (They are why same connectors can never be used for multiple things!) (Our district DID have an IBM mainframe with CICS accessible with 3270 emulation) From doc at vaxen.net Tue Jan 29 17:09:24 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:09:24 -0600 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <510856A4.60004@vaxen.net> On 1/29/13 3:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Over the years IBM have slipped in and out of water cooling. The "lowly" >> 43xx machines were all air cooled. S/360 and most S/370 were mostly air >> cooled. > > And even ES/9000 - only the 9021 high end machines were water cooled. > The 9121 and 9221 were air cooled. And if I remember correctly, IBM currently has a fluid-cooled system in production, the POWER7 "Power 775" model. Doc From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 17:13:37 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:13:37 -0600 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129131149.I95390@shell.lmi.net> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <20130129131149.I95390@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <510857A1.7020002@gmail.com> On 01/29/2013 03:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> You've obviously never dropped an RA-81 on your foot. :) > > Dropping a microcomputer can be painful. > Dropping a minicomputer can be injurious. > Dropping a mainframe can be fatal. If you can live inside it, it's a mainframe. If you can live inside it with your feet sticking out, it's a mini. Everything else is a micro. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 17:21:54 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 15:21:54 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <686EB509-97E4-471C-9EC5-B847493E68C0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <00b501cdfe54$54f3e370$fedbaa50$@com> <51082F60.4090806@gmail.com> <686EB509-97E4-471C-9EC5-B847493E68C0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <51085992.1010007@gmail.com> On 1/29/2013 1:32 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The 1510 looks a lot like the Hazeltines the UBC computing centre used > when setting up a student terminal room in 1979 to phase out the > keypunches and batch-mode equipment for student data-entry. > Worst terminals I ever used. Cheap keyboard and blurry white-phosphor > video. Hardly any of the keys worked when I got that one. I had to sit there exercising them for an hour or so, until most of them slowly started to work again. Sometimes anyway. Then the screen wasn't exactly aligned. Still ,they look really cool if they don't work all that great. From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 29 17:55:33 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:55:33 -0500 Subject: wanted: German translation of magazine article Message-ID: <00f901cdfe7c$2db79c20$8926d460$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Is there any German speaking builder who would be willing to translate an article for a well-known European hobbyist electronics magazine? (You'll recognize the magazine but I'd rather not post that here for privacy concerns) One of the N8VEM builders, Oscar, has written a great article in English on the N8VEM project. We have interest from the magazine but of course they want the article in German. Would someone who is proficient in German please volunteer to help us out? Thank you very much in advance! I appreciate your support! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 18:05:06 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:05:06 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> On 01/29/2013 01:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Ngram shows both minicomputer and mainframe *far* exceed midicomputer > in usage during the 1970s. Midicomputer almost is not there. As I said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure suits and other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, bright primary colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer". You bet your bippy that none of that amounted to a hill of pet rocks. I started to get really confused when the 11/45 was referred to as a midicomputer... --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 29 18:08:57 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:08:57 -0700 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> Message-ID: <51086499.2020608@brouhaha.com> On 01/29/2013 08:18 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the biggest VAX ever > made) was watercooled. Wrong on both counts. The 43XX machines were air cooled. The "biggest VAX ever made" would have been either a VAX 9000 or VAX 10000, depending on what you mean by "biggest". The VAX 9000 aggregate processor performance was over 100 MIPS, vs. about 10 MIPS for the fastest 4381. The VAX 10000 is significantly faster than that. Also the VAX 10000 has substantially more I/O bandwidth than the 4381. Maybe you were thinking of a high-end ES/9000, rather than the 43XX? From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 18:37:22 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:37:22 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> On 1/29/2013 2:08 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <20130129183458.GA43507 at allie.home.misty.com>, > Mark G Thomas writes: > >> Does anyone have one, broken or working, they might be looking to sell >> or trade? > They show up on ebay semi-regularly. A 1552 just showed up on the seller selling all Sellam's gear it just so happens. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Rare-Vintage-Hazeltine-1552-Computer-4DTD155406 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Jan 29 18:41:24 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:41:24 -0700 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <51086C34.10603@landcomp.net> On 1/29/13 12:25 PM, Pontus wrote: > On 01/29/2013 07:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> My back already aches from the past few weeks, but next week >> will be the final haul from the old house. > > I've enjoyed your homepage and I hope we will see some pics when you get > the new house in order. I'm currently working in my new garage to set up > a "server room". Here is a preview: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/garage/ > > /P Now that is cool! Raised floor and the whole 9 yards. Hopefully we'll get to see it in action when you're finished setting things up. :) Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 18:42:57 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:42:57 +0000 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] Message-ID: <295565925-1359506577-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-975968247-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Very impressive Pontus! A raised floor garage.. Something we all can envy. Henk, did you send pics that I missed somewhere or was that your comment that they'll come when you can lift a camera again? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 19:36:49 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:36:49 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> Message-ID: > As I said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure suits and > other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, bright primary > colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer". You miss my point. "Midicomputer" was *not* in vogue. If it was, it would have a larger presence in Ngram, especially relative to "minicomputer" (I will exclude mainframe, as it was a far more common word amongst non-computer people). -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 29 20:00:00 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:00:00 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51086499.2020608@brouhaha.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51086499.2020608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <51087EA0.10503@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/01/13 7:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 01/29/2013 08:18 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the biggest VAX ever >> made) was watercooled. > > Wrong on both counts. The 43XX machines were air cooled. The "biggest > VAX ever made" would have been eitherurmom or... Dudes, End the thread already. Big iron is defined as "Palletised. Local pickup only." --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 29 20:07:22 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:07:22 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? > On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes, but what cools the freon? > > the planet? And how well is that working out? :| --T From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 20:16:11 2013 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:16:11 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? Message-ID: On 01/29/2013 02:23 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what > does? It's a trap! Trick question intended to see who can be the most insufferable ass furiously defending an opinion unsupportable by objective fact. The competition is, as always, tediously predictable. The game is re-staged here at least twice a year, so that the pendant pecking order can be reaffirmed. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 29 20:24:23 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 02:24:23 +0000 Subject: What is big iron? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874503C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/13 2:02 PM, "Rich Alderson" wrote: >From: microcode at zoho.com >Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:22 AM > >> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:08:11AM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >> wrote: > >>> In the former case the TOAD-1 is most definitely "big iron" as it is >>> a descendant of the KL-10, which is most assuredly a mainframe. > >> DEC never made a mainframe and nobody from DEC ever asserted they did >> AFAIK. It's odd to see posts claiming DEC made mainframes or that VAX >> is big iron from a group where calling a DE9 a DB9 produces a >> 500-thread post ;-) > >You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The PDP-6/PDP-10 >family of 36-bit systems was clearly mainframe big iron, with a physical >memory space larger and performance better than a 360/50. > >Further, in 1989, the VAX 9000 was introduced to the world as "Digital's >First Mainframe" (at which the PDP-10 customers laughed derisively). > >> Stop the hysterical revisionism. DEC made minis. Minis are not big >> iron. > >Agreed. DEC made minis, which are not big iron. The revisionism on >your part is in claiming that DEC did not make mainframes. > One could look at this another way: machines like the larger VAXen challenge classification as minis. Many were clearly intended to be large timeshared systems. The PDP-10s clearly weren't minis, with the possible exception of the KS-10. Some of DG's larger Eclipse machines push the line, too. I must ask: is this at all important? -- Ian From shumaker at att.net Tue Jan 29 20:36:12 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:36:12 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51087EA0.10503@telegraphics.com.au> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51086499.2020608@brouhaha.com> <51087EA0.10503@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5108871C.6050803@att.net> On 1/29/2013 6:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 29/01/13 7:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On 01/29/2013 08:18 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: >>> Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the biggest VAX ever >>> made) was watercooled. >> >> Wrong on both counts. The 43XX machines were air cooled. The "biggest >> VAX ever made" would have been eitherurmom or... > > > Dudes, > > End the thread already. Big iron is defined as "Palletised. Local > pickup only." > > --T > yup. that works. --S From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 20:36:37 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:36:37 -0800 Subject: Outbound Notebook battery In-Reply-To: References: <51075BF5.3010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51088735.6090102@gmail.com> On 1/28/2013 11:52 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 29 January 2013 07:51, Liam Proven wrote: >> Oh, cool. I remember reading about those at the time. > Hmmm. I didn't know Ctrl-Enter did a "send" in Gmail. Sorry about > that. I meant to say - is this any use: > > http://lowendmac.com/clones/outbound.html > > (Bunch of links at the bottom, note.) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > Thanks. Didn't find anything directly there, but I found this image: http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/outbound/batteries.jpg It's blurry, but I managed to make out the text"EPP-130" and doing a search for that reveals: http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Biz-SCIENTIFIC-EPP-130C-Equivalent-Camcorder/dp/B0009Y6PXI Which looks like it may just do the trick. - Josh From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 20:40:38 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:40:38 -0600 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129145602.R95390@shell.lmi.net> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> <20130129145602.R95390@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51088826.7030100@gmail.com> On 01/29/2013 05:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I don't think there is real definition of a Mainframe, its what you want >> it to be at the time.... > > What is especially funny is when computer ILLiterates, such as college > administrators, think that it is two words "main frame", and think that > that means the box that the computer is in, aka "the Tower". Don't be silly, that bit is the hard drive. The computer is the bit which shows all the pretty pictures... :-( From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 29 20:59:19 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:59:19 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/29/2013 at 09:02PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with > > sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for > > driving a modern LCD? > > Sivne you mention the VR241 later on, I guess yoy need to do scan rate > conversion too. The VR241 is TV rate (around 15kHz horizontal). Yes... although I've seen another reference that says it runs at 56KHz. That could be wrong. I've not yet found the statement in the VT240 docs that says what the terminal actually sources... > Mos, if not all, LCD TVs sold over here have analogue RGB inputs at TV > rates on the SCART socket(s). It's not sync-on-green, so you may have al > ittle fiddling aobut to do, but at least the inputs exist. I have alos > seen, but have no experience of, a SCART to HDMI interface unit. I assume > tht has analogue RGB inputs on the SCART connector. Hmm... yes. You guys are spoiled with this SCART thing :-) SCART has separate sync? RGBHV? Not hard to build a sync separator I suppose. I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. On the other hand, I thought an existing something would be easier to find maybe in the video game restoration world or other places where RGB video was king. > > A couple DEC VT240 came my way this weekend and they will need some TLC to > > restore but the VR240 that came along with them is in even worse shape. > > I'll give it my best shot but ability to use an LCD as Plan B would > > be nice. > > > > Be warned that the VR241 is not easy to work on. The switch-mode power > supply is mostly on the live side of the isolation barrier and it is > driven by the horixontal oscillaotr (presuambly to prevent paterning from > the SPMSU osicilaltor nd horizotnal oscillator beating against each > other) via a winding o nthe flyback transofrmer which provides isolation > bnetwene mains and output sides. For startup there's a multivibrator > oscilaltor on the PSU board which is disabled when a capacitor shcages up. > > Therefore, for the PSU to run, not only doe it have ot be workign > properly, but the horixotnal driver nad output stanges have to be workign > too. Not easy to trace fualts... > > IIRC it's actually a Hitachi desing. Certianbly the thick-film module in > the midle of the scna PCB looks like a Hitachi product. OK. Thanks for the good advice. The VR241 that I acquired will need lots of cleaning before it ever gets powered on. It looks like it has gone to the bottom of the sea and back but I know that's not the case. I think it was used in an auto parts or repair shop and it is one grimey piece currently. However, I have just confirmed that two VT240 work with nice clean video on another monitor so that is good news and very much worth the price ($0) :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 29 20:59:39 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:59:39 -0700 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <51088C9B.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/29/2013 7:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? >> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Yes, but what cools the freon? >> >> the planet? > > > And how well is that working out? :| > And they say Global Warming is a myth. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 29 21:33:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:33:52 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51088826.7030100@gmail.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129151813.GA27238@zoho.com> <51083294.8050204@gmail.com> <20130129145602.R95390@shell.lmi.net> <51088826.7030100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <510894A0.1090300@neurotica.com> On 01/29/2013 09:40 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I don't think there is real definition of a Mainframe, its what you want >>> it to be at the time.... >> >> What is especially funny is when computer ILLiterates, such as college >> administrators, think that it is two words "main frame", and think that >> that means the box that the computer is in, aka "the Tower". > > Don't be silly, that bit is the hard drive. The computer is the bit > which shows all the pretty pictures... :-( I'm reminded of the guy a few apartments down from us when I was in my teens, in the early 1980s. A friend of his got "a computer". He said he saw "the TV, the typewriter, and the disk drive". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 29 21:35:29 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:35:29 -0500 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <51089501.8040500@neurotica.com> On 01/29/2013 09:59 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with >>> sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for >>> driving a modern LCD? >> >> Sivne you mention the VR241 later on, I guess yoy need to do scan rate >> conversion too. The VR241 is TV rate (around 15kHz horizontal). > > Yes... although I've seen another reference that says it runs at 56KHz. > That could be wrong. I've not yet found the statement in the VT240 > docs that says what the terminal actually sources... It's definitely NTSC or very close to it. > However, I have just confirmed that two VT240 work with nice clean video on > another monitor so that is good news and very much worth the price ($0) :-) Excellent. I really like VT240s. I'm glad to have a couple here as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 29 21:36:32 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:36:32 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51089540.2090402@neurotica.com> On 01/29/2013 07:37 PM, mc68010 wrote: > A 1552 just showed up on the seller selling all Sellam's gear it just so > happens. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Rare-Vintage-Hazeltine-1552-Computer-4DTD155406 "This listing has been removed, or this item is not available." I can only hope that this means "good news" for Sellam. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 21:38:48 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:38:48 -0200 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> > Hmm... yes. You guys are spoiled with this SCART thing :-) SCART has > separate sync? RGBHV? Not hard to build a sync separator I suppose. Use a LM1881. > I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three > high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, > scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to > handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. This exists, and works even for vector displays! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 21:56:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:56:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130129195527.O1850@shell.lmi.net> > >>> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? > >> Yes, but what cools the freon? > > the planet? On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > And how well is that working out? :| Seems to need a few details worked out! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 29 22:06:47 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:06:47 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini" In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2013 Jan 29, at 5:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> As I said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure >> suits and >> other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, >> bright primary >> colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer". > > You miss my point. "Midicomputer" was *not* in vogue. If it was, it > would have a larger presence in Ngram, especially relative to > "minicomputer" (I will exclude mainframe, as it was a far more common > word amongst non-computer people). Ngram is the determining authority? Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or 'in- vogue' term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than published books in comparison to more established terms like minicomputer and mainframe. Ngram says they normalise results for number of books published in a year but it's not clear how valid comparitive results will be are across different categories of publications. I Ngrammed 'midicomputer' and 'bubblehead' (a 'popular' term that I figure wouldn't show up so much in published books) and they come up with comparable percentages (at different times). - We also seem to have forgotten "superminicomputer" (or supermini) in this discussion. Didn't the term come in around the early 80's, as machines like the 780 and Eclipse established a new category of machines? Actually, didn't supermini kind of take over from midi, as midi just seemed a little awkward and a designation that no one really wanted to apply to their machine? From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 22:13:20 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:13:20 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <51089540.2090402@neurotica.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> <51089540.2090402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51089DE0.10502@gmail.com> On 1/29/2013 7:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/29/2013 07:37 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> A 1552 just showed up on the seller selling all Sellam's gear it just so >> happens. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Rare-Vintage-Hazeltine-1552-Computer-4DTD155406 > "This listing has been removed, or this item is not available." > > I can only hope that this means "good news" for Sellam. > > -Dave > Something probably got cut off. Probably on me. Anyway it is still there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/230920559966 Item 230920559966 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 22:41:05 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:41:05 -0500 Subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini" In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Ngram is the determining authority? Not perfect, but it does the job. Suggest something better. > Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or 'in-vogue' > term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than published books > in comparison to more established terms like minicomputer and mainframe. Yes, that is true, but certainly there will be some migration over the years from the rags to the books, just as it happens today. Jargon works its way into the general language, even in something as awful as a Tom Clancey novel. > I Ngrammed 'midicomputer' and 'bubblehead' (a 'popular' term that I figure > wouldn't show up so much in published books) and they come up with > comparable percentages (at different times). Try "apples" and "oranges". -- Will From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Jan 29 23:43:05 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 02:43:05 -0300 Subject: What is big iron? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201301300443.r0U4hIEE039818@mx1.ezwind.net> Ian King wrote: > I must ask: is this at all important? It might make some people here feel better to know that there was a place and a time when it was important. The 1984 law (number 7232) that codified the "reserved market policy" that was in effect in Brazil from 1977 to 1992 made it illegal for foreign companies to make mini or microcomputers in the country, but mainframes were ok (both IBM and Burroughs had local factories). The definitions of which were which were not a part of that law itself, nor the complementary 1986 law (number 7463). I do remember that a new category of "super minis" was added in the mid 1980s (probably explicitly to keep high end VAXes from being counted as mainframes) and then "workstations" in the late 1980s (which became legal to import in certain circumstances). -- Jecel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 23:10:48 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:10:48 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini" In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5108AB58.4000501@sydex.com> On 01/29/2013 08:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Jan 29, at 5:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> As I said, it *was* the 70s. Love beads, Nehru jackets, leisure >>> suits and >>> other things were in vogue, along with orange shag carpeting, bright >>> primary >>> colors for indoor furnishings and "midicomputer". >> >> You miss my point. "Midicomputer" was *not* in vogue. If it was, it >> would have a larger presence in Ngram, especially relative to >> "minicomputer" (I will exclude mainframe, as it was a far more common >> word amongst non-computer people). > > Ngram is the determining authority? > > Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or > 'in-vogue' term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than > published books in comparison to more established terms like > minicomputer and mainframe. Ngram says they normalise results for number > of books published in a year but it's not clear how valid comparitive > results will be are across different categories of publications. Shrug. I'll have to check the computer dictionary that I edited back in the 90's for McGraw-Hill. Generally, I don't think much of dictionaries or the people who write them. "Midicomputer" appeared in publication--by some measures, that's sufficient to call it legitimate. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 29 23:28:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:28:30 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <51089DE0.10502@gmail.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> <51089540.2090402@neurotica.com> <51089DE0.10502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5108AF7E.5020901@neurotica.com> On 01/29/2013 11:13 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 1/29/2013 7:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 01/29/2013 07:37 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> A 1552 just showed up on the seller selling all Sellam's gear it just so >>> happens. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Rare-Vintage-Hazeltine-1552-Computer-4DTD155406 >>> >> "This listing has been removed, or this item is not available." >> >> I can only hope that this means "good news" for Sellam. >> > Something probably got cut off. Probably on me. Anyway it is still there. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/230920559966 > > Item 230920559966 Crap. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 29 23:41:31 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:41:31 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? and hey, what about "supermini" In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <51080614.4000306@sydex.com> <51082570.6020803@sydex.com> <510863B2.7000101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6FCF195F-7A8E-4B9A-950E-06B52C36F056@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Jan 29, at 8:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Ngram is the determining authority? > > Not perfect, but it does the job. Suggest something better. Even if there isn't anything better that doesn't validate Ngram for the task. >> Ngram is neat but it may have it's own skew to results. A new or >> 'in-vogue' >> term like midicomputer may show up more in trade rags than >> published books >> in comparison to more established terms like minicomputer and >> mainframe. > > Yes, that is true, but certainly there will be some migration over the > years from the rags to the books, just as it happens today. Jargon > works its way into the general language, even in something as awful as > a Tom Clancey novel. It may do so, but it may also go from 'in-vogue' to simply out. I remember "midicomputer" from the 70's, even though I was just a kid at the time. My own perception or recollection, as I mentioned earlier, was the term got dropped or overridden in favour of supermini by the 80's. >> I Ngrammed 'midicomputer' and 'bubblehead' (a 'popular' term that >> I figure >> wouldn't show up so much in published books) and they come up with >> comparable percentages (at different times). > > Try "apples" and "oranges". In the context of my point, 'popular' vs 'more formal' terms and how that might affect Ngram results, I did. If a narrow,industry-specific term like 'midicomputer' can show similar percentages to a generic, popular bit of jargon like 'bubblehead', it says something about its prevalence, or else about Ngram. From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 00:21:37 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:21:37 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <5108AF7E.5020901@neurotica.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> <51089540.2090402@neurotica.com> <51089DE0.10502@gmail.com> <5108AF7E.5020901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5108BBF1.3070605@gmail.com> On 1/29/2013 9:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> "This listing has been removed, or this item is not available." >>> >>> I can only hope that this means "good news" for Sellam. >>> >> Something probably got cut off. Probably on me. Anyway it is still there. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/230920559966 >> >> Item 230920559966 > Crap. :-( > > -Dave > Looking at those pictures made me think. The Hazeltine logo is just Helvetica right ? The look of bold writing on the front always made them look cool to me. Any other computers/terminals use Helvetica ? From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 30 01:05:42 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:05:42 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> <001301cdfe5c$23a42a20$6aec7e60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5108C646.4030107@update.uu.se> On 01/29/2013 10:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Very nice. Thank you. > It's inspiring me to deploy mine. I have about 120 full and partial > tiles and "mushroom stands" from a place I used to work that closed > down a while back. It is not very hard. If you, like me, have a very uneven floor then it's worth it!. /P From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 30 01:10:44 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:10:44 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5108C774.4090804@update.uu.se> On 01/29/2013 09:28 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Nice pictures, love to see the other sides :-) A raised floor is also > nice! Pictures from my previous apartment show the other sides of some of the gear: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/ Eventually there will be an update, when the new place is somewhat in order. > Those tiles are no good either for your back! Tell me about it, I still have an aching arm from lifting (and cleaning) all tiles. > I will take some pictures in the next weeks of things that appeared I had > completely forgotten about. I have also reached the point where I forget what I own and get pleasantly surprised to rediscover hardware. > > So, when I am recovering my back, there will be time to take pictures :-) Looking forward to it, take your time :-) /P From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 30 01:13:12 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:13:12 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129152212.GB27238@zoho.com> <51082238.80704@update.uu.se> <5108371C.2010405@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5108C808.2020807@update.uu.se> On 01/29/2013 11:00 PM, Richard wrote: > I count 2 indys, 1 Indigo^2 and an Octane. It's a little fuzzy, but > there *may* be an IRIS [123]x00 workstation in the pic with the > Octane. Am I missing something? It is an IRIS 3130. You missed the skinless O2k, but you have to know exactly where to look. In storage I have plenty of other SGI. /P From roe at liveblockauctions.com Tue Jan 29 07:08:19 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:08:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: pdp11/34 rack mounting In-Reply-To: <44f394f7e77ff91dae1f532e50991c53.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <51069DF5.7050604@liveblockauctions.com> <44f394f7e77ff91dae1f532e50991c53.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <24035BA4-37DA-4991-8BD0-3D634E9A1091@liveblockauctions.com> On Jan 29, 2013, at 4:17 AM, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > >> >> I've got a pdp11/34 in a BA-11L mounting box, and I'm trying to find out >> what rack hardware I need to rackmount the beast. If anyone has info >> (part numbers, etc), or can point me at a resource (or even a supplier), >> I would much appreciate it. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> -- > > Did it come with the outer box as well? That is mounted directly > to the front & back posts of a (Dec) rack. It's the outer box that's missing. As far as I can find out, it doesn't even have its own DEC part number, it's "integral" with the BA11-L. > > If you only have the inner frame, you might try to use 2 angle bars > mounted to the sides of the rack and let it rest on it. If it comes to that, I will install a standard rack shelf and set the beast on that, but I'd really like to be able to slide it out of the rack and lock. My best bet might be to find a complete BA11-L and just use its outer box... Anyone have one lying around? Thanks. > > Ed > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > From earl at retrobits.com Tue Jan 29 11:00:27 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:00:27 -0800 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!" > > > Heh, fair enough. We had a 3090, replaced with a higher capacity Amdahl, at the job I worked in the 80s. Now, that was some big iron. But, compared to my 8-bit collection, the 11/780 has a lot of iron in it :-) - Earl From earl at retrobits.com Tue Jan 29 11:00:27 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:00:27 -0800 Subject: FAFNER is shut down In-Reply-To: <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> Message-ID: It may be fun but it isn't "big iron!" > > > Heh, fair enough. We had a 3090, replaced with a higher capacity Amdahl, at the job I worked in the 80s. Now, that was some big iron. But, compared to my 8-bit collection, the 11/780 has a lot of iron in it :-) - Earl From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:22:29 2013 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:22:29 -0700 Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On 29 January 2013 05:39, wrote: > > Watercooled IBM machines like S/360, S/370. If it isn't watercooled and > > doesn't need raised floor, it's just a mini. > > freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? > machines made buy other than IBM can never be considered "Big Iron"?? > machines that sit on a concrete slab can never be considered "Big Iron"??? > Perhaps the definition of "big iron" changes with the times, relative to the average size of the equipment of the day... consider (for instance) how many 2U servers one could fit in the space of a fully decked-out 11/70 rig. Not sure the term "minicomputer" is really fitting anymore. Just my .02c/ From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 15:57:09 2013 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:57:09 +0000 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Fred wrote:> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, John S wrote:>> To conclude, information such as the IDAM content won't be readable by a >> PC with a normal FDC, so this approach looks limited. I am in touch with >> Ansgar reading his wonderful hpdir project, which I am using with my >> Series 80 disks on an 82901M drive, so will point him here for a bit >> more light reading ;-) > > PC WILL sense the IDAM. > In "normal" read/write, the PC works the same. It steps to the track, > finds a sector header, checks it, and if it is the one requested, > reads/writes. Many thanks Fred for correcting me and for the mini-tutorial. > The NEC chips even have a [little used] command to read sector header! OK, I'm sure there would be some mileage in tools that could use this feature. I guess not all PC FDC chips would have this capability though. (FWIW I am a fan of the Adaptec 1542 cards with their built in FDC, two types depending on model but both OK with FM disks). Coming back to LIF disks with bad tracks, as I wrote above I am a fan of HPdir, and am using a PC with an HPIB controller and 82901M floppy drive, so avoiding any use of the PC's FDC. I've got a further query on the 82901M and 9121 drive which I'll raise in a new thread. Regards,John From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 29 19:22:51 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:22:51 -0800 Subject: What is big iron? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874501A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874501A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <510875EB.50603@jwsss.com> On 1/29/2013 1:54 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: microcode at zoho.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:18 AM > >> Even the lowly 43XX (which was more powerful than the biggest VAX ever >> made) was watercooled. > Excuse me? > > I worked with 4341 and 4361 systems at UChicago, and a pair of 4381s at > Stanford. There wasn't a water pipe to be seen. I think that you have > no idea what you're talking about. I owned a 4381 and a 4341 specifically because there was no water involved. I tried to buy a Liebert cooling system for a 3090 for another project because it was an air / water cooling system of some considerable efficiency. That unit went for more than both of the above combined, and I didn't get it. the 3090 was already gone, was still going to be used by the company for more months as spare parts / expansion at another site. > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 29 19:58:06 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:58:06 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar In-Reply-To: <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> References: <20130129183458.GA43507@allie.home.misty.com> <51086B42.1000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51087E2E.5020206@jwsss.com> here's a link that will actually work 230920559966 http://www.ebay.com/itm/230920559966 the one you posted didn't work for me, anyway thru thunderbird. jim On 1/29/2013 4:37 PM, mc68010 wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Rare-Vintage-Hazeltine-1552-Computer-4DTD155406 > From david at classiccomputing.com Tue Jan 29 21:23:29 2013 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:23:29 -0500 Subject: VCFSE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi everyone, Gearing up now for the VCFSE - lots of stuff is about to happen, lots of fast! We now have a VCFSE email discussion list - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vcfse/ We now have a VCFSE Twitter account - https://twitter.com/VCFSE Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Writer, Podcaster & Speaker - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 4/20 & 4/21, 2013 http://about.me/davidgreelish From roe at liveblockauctions.com Tue Jan 29 21:40:11 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:40:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <51088C9B.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> <51088C9B.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Einstein said everything is relative. Compared to a raspberry PI, one 7 foot rack with a pdp11/20 and On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:38 PM, ben wrote: > On 1/29/2013 7:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? >>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Yes, but what cools the freon? >>> >>> the planet? >> >> >> And how well is that working out? :| > > And they say Global Warming is a myth. > > > From roe at liveblockauctions.com Tue Jan 29 21:43:39 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:43:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: References: <510661C5.2080908@xs4all.nl> <98A2AB99-47A0-4687-91C1-99CA94242F3F@gmail.com> <20130129073427.GD15683@zoho.com> <5107A315.6050507@update.uu.se> <20130129103915.GI15683@zoho.com> <20130129120217.Y95390@shell.lmi.net> <51083394.7010701@sydex.com> <20130129134703.P95390@shell.lmi.net> <5108805A.4090806@telegraphics.com.au> <51088C9B.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0AFCD339-7C00-4883-8534-7CBF798F27BD@liveblockauctions.com> On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Einstein said everything is relative. Compared to a raspberry PI, one 7 foot rack with a pdp11/20 and Oops, sorry And two RK05 disk drives is big iron, IMHO, even though the PI kills the PDP in every possible way as far as performance is concerned. It's all about perception. And, btw, the IBM 360/370 series sucked. IMHO :-) > > On Jan 29, 2013, at 9:38 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 1/29/2013 7:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 29/01/13 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> freon cooled can never be considered "Big iron"? >>>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>>> Yes, but what cools the freon? >>>> >>>> the planet? >>> >>> >>> And how well is that working out? :| >> >> And they say Global Warming is a myth. >> >> >> From wilson at dbit.com Wed Jan 30 02:27:24 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 03:27:24 -0500 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: <20130129083336.E92445@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130129083336.E92445@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130130082724.GA13465@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 09:17:34AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >The NEC chips even have a [little used] command to read sector header! I'd *love* to be set straight, but I've had problems with some models of FDC chip hanging up when given a "read ID" command. It's very useful, but either it can't be relied upon to work, or I'm an idiot. Or both. John Wilson D Bit From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Jan 30 03:18:11 2013 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:18:11 +0000 Subject: Benchmark Modula-2 for Amiga, Avante-Garde Software Message-ID: <5108E553.90307@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi folks, Does anyone have a copy of Benchmark Modula-2 for the Amiga, released around 1986, they could let me have a copy of. I bought the software to help me with a second year University Programming and Algorithms course and wrote my final year project a 'Meta Assembler' in it and would love to get that working again. I still have the manual (I have no idea when the disks were lost but I suspect they succumed to mold) and am seriously considering scanning it for the community, but this seems a bit of a waste of time unless the software is not unobtainium. Many thanks for the help, Mark. From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 03:07:12 2013 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:07:12 +0000 Subject: Looking for Appendix to HP 3.5" disc drive service manual (disc commands) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, In the discussion on HP LIF disks and bad sectors, I was pointed towards the 9895A service manual and its?description?of initializing floppies, marking 'bad tracks', and bad sectors. I have the 82901M 5.25" and 9121 3.5" drives, so have had a look in their service manuals for similar descriptions, in case there were any differences or further nuggets of information. The 82901 manual said very little on the topic, but the manual for the 9121 (covering several 3.5" drives) shows in the contents that Appendix A describes the command set. I had a look at the scanned version: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/disc/09121-90030_3_Inch_Flexible_Disk_Drive_Service_Apr84.pdf and copied here: http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=288 but Appendix A is missing, does anyone have a link or a scanned copy please? Regards, John From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 30 07:29:06 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 05:29:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is big iron? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, Ken Seefried wrote: > On 01/29/2013 02:23 AM, Pontus wrote: > >> Hmm, I though a VAX of 11/780 size qualified as big iron. If not, what >> does? > > It's a trap! > > Trick question intended to see who can be the most insufferable ass > furiously defending an opinion unsupportable by objective fact. > The competition is, as always, tediously predictable. The game > is re-staged here at least twice a year, so that the pendant pecking order > can be reaffirmed. > Ok Ken, you win The Internet. Good job! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Jan 30 07:35:37 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:35:37 -0600 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118744FFB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118744FFB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <24E309ED-C80E-4C63-B15B-C59B2CDF9BF9@lunar-tokyo.net> On Jan 29, 2013, at 3:48 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: John Wilson > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:12 PM > >> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:26:08AM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: > >>>> (Assuming you don't count the :INFO system at MIT, which came much >>>> earlier.) > >>> Is it a wiki? > >> Editable by anyone ... cross-machine links (over the network file >> system -- I think it was called MLDEV?) ... what else would it need? > > Wankers who remove edits by people who know what they're talking about? Policy Lawyers? Deletionists? From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 30 08:34:07 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:34:07 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> Message-ID: <20130130143407.GB18953@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (01/30/2013 at 01:38AM -0200), Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >Hmm... yes. You guys are spoiled with this SCART thing :-) SCART has > >separate sync? RGBHV? Not hard to build a sync separator I suppose. > > Use a LM1881. Some nice Intersil parts (a little more modern) exist today too. eg, http://www.intersil.com/en/products/audiovideo/video-ics/video-sync-separators/ISL59885.html > >I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three > >high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, > >scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to > >handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. > > This exists, and works even for vector displays! Any hints as to where this exists? A home project or commercially available? I'd like to hear more... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 30 08:44:09 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:44:09 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <51089501.8040500@neurotica.com> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <51089501.8040500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130130144409.GC18953@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/29/2013 at 10:35PM -0500), Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/29/2013 09:59 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >>> Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with > >>> sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for > >>> driving a modern LCD? > >> > >> Sivne you mention the VR241 later on, I guess yoy need to do scan rate > >> conversion too. The VR241 is TV rate (around 15kHz horizontal). > > > > Yes... although I've seen another reference that says it runs at 56KHz. > > That could be wrong. I've not yet found the statement in the VT240 > > docs that says what the terminal actually sources... > > It's definitely NTSC or very close to it. Yes-- as I guess was confirmed by the reasonable image on a Sony studio monitor. The image was a little too wide and a little too tall for the Sony though... which has no controls to reduce height and width but it did sync just fine. > > However, I have just confirmed that two VT240 work with nice clean video on > > another monitor so that is good news and very much worth the price ($0) :-) > > Excellent. I really like VT240s. I'm glad to have a couple here as well. Indeed. Especially impressed that it's got a T11 in it in addition to the 8085 that helps with the video. These two will need a good scrubbing but electrically, so far, so good. I've got more than a dozen LK201 keyboards from this lot too... which will also need, ah, scrubbing and delousing. The fate of the 10 or more terminals that should go with the keyboards gives one pause-- but we can't save them all I guess... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From shutchman at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 07:31:30 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: CRT monitor for SUN 3/140 In-Reply-To: References: <1359182107.65794.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This "arcade" video converter is not going to work for this task. It's input scan rate can only go to 32.5KHz. The frame buffer outputs 61.8KHz. I was searching monitor specs and came across an HP LP2065 LCD multisync color monitor that looks promising. It has a Sun mode at 1152x900 @66Hz. I would still need to convert the ECL with a MC10H125PG MECL to TTL translator. Any opinions on if this will work for the SUN 3/140? On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Hutch wrote: > I am the originator of the thread, > I have some ECL -> TTL chips, when my arcade converter is delivered, I > will connect the chip and let you know the results. > my monitor is monochrome. > The monitors are SUN Model M19P114 part no 365-1051-01. > The pin out on the 3/140 frame buffer is > > 1-VIDEO+ > 2-GND > 3-HSYNC > 4-VSYNC > 5-NC > 6-VIDEO- > 7 GND > 8-GND > 9-GND > > VIDEO+ and VIDEO- are ECL levels , and HSYNC and VSYNC are TTL levels. > > > On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > Why is there a variation in the video signal? Is this comparable to the >> ana= >> >> I may be telling you what you aready know, in which case I apologise. >> >> ECL = Emitter Coupled Logic. It's a type of logic circuitry (in the same >> way that DTL and TTL are types of logic circuitry). ECL generally uses a >> -ve supply rail (often -5.2V) and is higher speed that TTL, etc. >> >> The high speed feature is probably why it was used for this video signal. >> At the time, TTL logic was not fast enough, and generally could not drive >> long cables well at high (for TLT) speeds. ECL could. >> >> There were TTL <-> ECL inteface ICs (IIRC 10124 and 10125), bnt of course >> the speed they could rubn at was limited by the speed on the TTL side. >> You could probably use a 10125 to convert this video signal to TTL, but >> whether you could be able see individual pixels clearly I don't know. >> >> > log video which varies infinitely to account for many colors/shades? My >> bat= >> >> No, it's a 2-state digital signal. I asusme this is a 1-bit-per-pixel >> system, like a lot of earleir workstations. >> >> > tery is dying, and I'm tired. No more time to research tonight. =0A >> >> I've foudn that runnign computers form the mains helps with this :-) >> >> >> >> >> > =A0=0A= >> > =A0I'm curious because I have an old HP color behemoth that a >> super-tech wa= >> > s unable to get to display anything he threw at it. Now it's a long >> shot, I= >> >> I would be _very_ spuprised if a colour monitor had ECL inputs. On the >> other hand I have come across an analogue HP colour monitor (that on the >> HP9836C) where hte inputs are current, rather than voltage, driven. >> >> Do you know the model number of this HP moniotr? What is the input >> connector? >> Do you know if it works at all? The fact that it won't dispaly enything >> might be due to a fualt i nthe monitor. >> >> -tony >> > > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Jan 30 10:12:53 2013 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:12:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VCFSE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, David Greelish wrote: > Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 4/20 & 4/21, 2013 I'm not able to find a better description of the location than "in Atlanta". Is there no venue yet? Alexey From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 10:22:40 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:22:40 -0800 Subject: Looking for Appendix to HP 3.5" disc drive service manual (disc commands) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:07 AM, John S wrote: > > Hi, > > In the discussion on HP LIF disks and bad sectors, I was pointed towards the 9895A service manual and its description of initializing floppies, marking 'bad tracks', and bad sectors. I have the 82901M 5.25" and 9121 3.5" drives, so have had a look in their service manuals for similar descriptions, in case there were any differences or further nuggets of information. The 82901 manual said very little on the topic, but the manual for the 9121 (covering several 3.5" drives) shows in the contents that Appendix A describes the command set. I had a look at the scanned version: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/disc/09121-90030_3_Inch_Flexible_Disk_Drive_Service_Apr84.pdf > > and copied here: > > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=288 > > but Appendix A is missing, does anyone have a link or a scanned copy please? Not the exact manual you were looking for but might have the same information. This scanned copy includes pages Appendix A-1 through A-36. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/disc/5957-6584_9123D_3.5_Flex_Disc_Nov85.pdf Manual Update 5957-6584 Update for the 3 1/2-inch flexible disc drive service manual (part number 09121-90030) This update is for the tabbed section of the manual labeled 9123D. The update covers information on the HP 9123D product. Appendix A HP Flexible Disc Drive Command Set All host computers interfacing to the 9121D/S and the 9133 will use these commands. For the rest of this section where the 9121D/S is referenced, please keep in mind that the implementation is the same for the flexible disc portion of the 9133. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 10:28:01 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:28:01 -0500 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130130143407.GB18953@n0jcf.net> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> <20130130143407.GB18953@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1AAB407E-2DC8-487F-973A-BB50C7FD51FD@gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three >>> high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, >>> scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to >>> handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. >> >> This exists, and works even for vector displays! > > Any hints as to where this exists? A home project or commercially > available? I'd like to hear more... Definitely one of my "one of these days" projects, though I'd much rather use an FPGA than a CPU to handle the video. I'm tired of how awful composite video looks on my LCD TV because of their crappy decoding (my Bt878 TV cards from the early 2000s do a much better job) and the latency looks awful. Expanding it out to more analog formats would be handy to a lot of folks, I guess. What kind of price would be palatable to people? I doubt I could get it down below $70 in any kind of realistic quantity. - Dave From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 10:37:17 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:37:17 +0100 Subject: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] In-Reply-To: <295565925-1359506577-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-975968247-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <295565925-1359506577-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-975968247-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: From: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:42 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: New Houses [Was: Re: What is big iron?] > Very impressive Pontus! A raised floor garage.. Something we all can > envy. > Henk, did you send pics that I missed somewhere or was that your comment > that they'll come when you can lift a camera again? I will add new pictures within a few weeks (maybe earlier ...) If there is an update I will mention it on the "update info" page. Last update was 02/2010 ! - Henk. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 30 10:47:04 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:47:04 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 or similar References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:28:30 -0500 From: Dave McGuire On 01/29/2013 11:13 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 1/29/2013 7:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 01/29/2013 07:37 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> A 1552 just showed up on the seller selling all Sellam's gear it just so >>> happens. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Rare-Vintage-Hazeltine-1552-Computer-4DTD155406 >>> >> "This listing has been removed, or this item is not available." >> >> I can only hope that this means "good news" for Sellam. >> > Something probably got cut off. Probably on me. Anyway it is still there. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/230920559966 > > Item 230920559966 Crap. :-( -Dave ----- Reply: Guess it'd be better if it didn't sell and got scrapped, as long as those heinous thieves didn't make any money? Exactly what is gained by folks on this and a few other lists not bidding on these items as Sellam demanded, other than keeping prices low for everyone else (a good thing, for them) and increasing the likelihood that they don't sell and get scrapped instead (a bad thing IMO) ? He lost my sympathy when he threatened to sue anyone in this community (that has been so supportive over the years) if they bought any of his items. Ironically, in the extremely unlikely event that he got back the money made from selling his stuff then the folks in this community would actually probably be the _most_ likely to be willing to sell it back to him... m From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 30 11:03:43 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:03:43 -0700 Subject: Nice Direct View Storage Tube Demonstration Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jan 30 12:10:02 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:10:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: wanted: German translation of magazine article Message-ID: <1359569402.38145.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Why not just put it in a web documwnt and let google do it? Most of it... ------------------------------ On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 3:55 PM PST Andrew Lynch wrote: >Hi! > > > >Is there any German speaking builder who would be willing to translate an >article for a well-known European hobbyist electronics magazine? (You'll >recognize the magazine but I'd rather not post that here for privacy >concerns) > > > >One of the N8VEM builders, Oscar, has written a great article in English on >the N8VEM project. We have interest from the magazine but of course they >want the article in German. > > > >Would someone who is proficient in German please volunteer to help us out? >Thank you very much in advance! I appreciate your support! > > > >Have a nice day! > > >Andrew Lynch > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 30 13:30:28 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 13:30:28 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <1AAB407E-2DC8-487F-973A-BB50C7FD51FD@gmail.com> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> <20130130143407.GB18953@n0jcf.net> <1AAB407E-2DC8-487F-973A-BB50C7FD51FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130130193028.GJ18953@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (01/30/2013 at 11:28AM -0500), David Riley wrote: > On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > >>> I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three > >>> high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, > >>> scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to > >>> handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. > >> > >> This exists, and works even for vector displays! > > > > Any hints as to where this exists? A home project or commercially > > available? I'd like to hear more... > > Definitely one of my "one of these days" projects, though I'd much > rather use an FPGA than a CPU to handle the video. I'm tired of > how awful composite video looks on my LCD TV because of their > crappy decoding (my Bt878 TV cards from the early 2000s do a much > better job) and the latency looks awful. Expanding it out to more > analog formats would be handy to a lot of folks, I guess. What > kind of price would be palatable to people? I doubt I could get > it down below $70 in any kind of realistic quantity. oh... excellent. I'd pay $150 for such a thing as long as it converts to a standard that will be around for a while-- such as DVI/HDMI. It would be fine if it puts a letter box around the legacy image too-- all the way around-- and doesn't up convert so that one pixel from the legacy turns into say, five on the modern display. I'm not a big fan of blooming the image. I'm after as crisp of a image on the new display as we had with the original tube when it was operating correctly. The only thing I was brainstorming about when a CPU is involved is that you could also fork the video into something like VNC protocol and send it over a network for remote display. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 30 13:39:48 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:39:48 -0800 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: <20130130082724.GA13465@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130129083336.E92445@shell.lmi.net> <20130130082724.GA13465@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <51097704.1060605@sydex.com> On 01/30/2013 12:27 AM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 09:17:34AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The NEC chips even have a [little used] command to read sector header! > > I'd *love* to be set straight, but I've had problems with some models of FDC > chip hanging up when given a "read ID" command. It's very useful, but either > it can't be relied upon to work, or I'm an idiot. Or both. No comment on that, but Read ID has been used in PC BIOSes (for example, see bit 7 in 40:96H.) as well as many drivers (see, for instance, the NT4/2K/XP... floppy driver routines. It's the most reliable way that there is to determine the recorded density of a floppy. I believe that both BSD and Linux use it as well. Unless I miss my guess, it's also a key part of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk and I'm pretty certain that I wrote it into both Telediska nd Anadisk. Without it, life would be much harder. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 30 15:23:36 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What is big iron? [Was: Re: FAFNER is shut down] In-Reply-To: <002601cdfe64$45839b50$d08ad1f0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 29, 13 10:04:41 pm Message-ID: > No no, you don't get it, if it isn't tube based it never can be "Big Iron" > ;P > Semiconductors and non-delay-line- or mercury based memories and other > modernity's don't belong in 'BIG IRON' .. What have you got against Williams tubes? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 30 16:05:03 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:05:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 29, 13 08:59:19 pm Message-ID: > > Sivne you mention the VR241 later on, I guess yoy need to do scan rate > > conversion too. The VR241 is TV rate (around 15kHz horizontal). > > Yes... although I've seen another reference that says it runs at 56KHz. > That could be wrong. I've not yet found the statement in the VT240 I can assure youy that the VR241, as used o nthe PROs, Rainbow, VT240, etc runs at (US) TV rates. > docs that says what the terminal actually sources... The VT240 box -- at least the one I've just looked at -- has 2 video output connecotrs. One is a DA15 plug, with a pinout similar ot the PRO/Rainbow. I believe you can conenct a VR201 or VR241 there. The other is a BNC and presumably outputs composite monochrome video. I've never seen a printset for th VT240 (it wasn't on bitsavers last time I looked), and I've not traced out schematics of mine yet. But the video section looks very similar ot a Rainbow colour video board -- a 7220, RAM, a couple of PALS (maybe even the same as those in the 'BOW0, resistors fo the DACs, etc. One minor suprise when you look around the VT240 board is that there's a T11 in there. > > > Mos, if not all, LCD TVs sold over here have analogue RGB inputs at TV > > rates on the SCART socket(s). It's not sync-on-green, so you may have al > > ittle fiddling aobut to do, but at least the inputs exist. I have alos > > seen, but have no experience of, a SCART to HDMI interface unit. I assume > > tht has analogue RGB inputs on the SCART connector. > > Hmm... yes. You guys are spoiled with this SCART thing :-) SCART has > separate sync? RGBHV? Not hard to build a sync separator I suppose. No, it's composite sync. The SCRT connecotr has composite (colour) video input and output pins and R,G,B inputs (on a TV set). If you use the RGB inputs, you use the composite video input as a composite sync pin. > > I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three > high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, > scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to > handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. THere is, of course, a common nd cheap ARM-based board with an HDMI output. Pity the video processor is almost totally uncodumented. > On the other hand, I thought an existing something would be easier to > find maybe in the video game restoration world or other places where > RGB video was king. As I said, SCART (presumably includign the RGB signals) to HDMI interfaces are not unheard-of over here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 30 15:40:59 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:40:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: do you need to tear the metal shutter off of a modern 3.5: floppy for it to work in an SMC-70? In-Reply-To: <20130129135539.T95390@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 29, 13 02:01:50 pm Message-ID: > > Didn't the 600RPM "full height" 3.5" drives (the earliest ("FIRST"??) 3.5" > drives?) accept modern "auto-shutter" disks? I beleive the very first ones didn't Somewhere I have an old HP 3.5" disk with the pinch-to-close shutter. I read in one of the HP bopardswapper guidss that thewre was a covnersion kit fo the 3.5" drive to allow the use of automatcic shutter disks. The drives in question were, of ocurse, the full-height 600rpm Sony ones. What the kit consisted of, and how to install it, was not mentions. I would assume a complete now loading mechanism/disk holder with the leer to open the shutter. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 30 16:59:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 14:59:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: do you need to tear the metal shutter off of a modern 3.5: floppy for it to work in an SMC-70? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130130145723.L20722@shell.lmi.net> > > Didn't the 600RPM "full height" 3.5" drives (the earliest ("FIRST"??) 3.5" > > drives?) accept modern "auto-shutter" disks? On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > I beleive the very first ones didn't > > Somewhere I have an old HP 3.5" disk with the pinch-to-close shutter. I've got a few Shugart 3.5 floppies (before shutters) > I read in one of the HP bopardswapper guidss that thewre was a covnersion > kit fo the 3.5" drive to allow the use of automatcic shutter disks. The > drives in question were, of ocurse, the full-height 600rpm Sony ones. > > What the kit consisted of, and how to install it, was not mentions. I > would assume a complete now loading mechanism/disk holder with the leer > to open the shutter. Or a CLAW to rip the shutter off with? From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 12:24:31 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:24:31 +0100 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > I have written a small utility that reads/writes HP 9122C disk images (using > HP's native track layout, not the normal "PC" HD floppy layout), > see ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/utils/hp9122c.c > You may change the geometry table for other track layouts. This link doesn't work anymore. Do you have one that works? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cpuser_stefskog at bredband.net Wed Jan 30 12:34:46 2013 From: cpuser_stefskog at bredband.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:34:46 +0100 Subject: wanted: German translation of magazine article In-Reply-To: <1359569402.38145.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1359569402.38145.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44b60ccf78d68db45b8213c483c434bb@imap.bredband.net> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:10:02 -0800 (PST), Chris Tofu wrote: > Why not just put it in a web documwnt and let google do it? Most of it... > > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 3:55 PM PST Andrew Lynch wrote: > Considering how badly google translates german to swedish, I THINK NOT ! From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 18:38:12 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:38:12 -0500 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130130193028.GJ18953@n0jcf.net> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> <20130130143407.GB18953@n0jcf.net> <1AAB407E-2DC8-487F-973A-BB50C7FD51FD@gmail.com> <20130130193028.GJ18953@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:30 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (01/30/2013 at 11:28AM -0500), David Riley wrote: >> On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> >> Definitely one of my "one of these days" projects, though I'd much >> rather use an FPGA than a CPU to handle the video. I'm tired of >> how awful composite video looks on my LCD TV because of their >> crappy decoding (my Bt878 TV cards from the early 2000s do a much >> better job) and the latency looks awful. Expanding it out to more >> analog formats would be handy to a lot of folks, I guess. What >> kind of price would be palatable to people? I doubt I could get >> it down below $70 in any kind of realistic quantity. > > oh... excellent. I'd pay $150 for such a thing as long as it converts > to a standard that will be around for a while-- such as DVI/HDMI. > > It would be fine if it puts a letter box around the legacy image too-- > all the way around-- and doesn't up convert so that one pixel from the > legacy turns into say, five on the modern display. I'm not a big fan > of blooming the image. I'm after as crisp of a image on the new display > as we had with the original tube when it was operating correctly. Having a user-programmable FPGA means you can do whatever you want (as long as you can program an FPGA, which has been a somewhat contentious topic around here). I'd certainly be looking to at least support pixel doubling as well as the type of interpolation one usually sees on LCD computer monitors as a stock feature; I know at least I'd prefer doubling over interpolation, but lots of people have an aversion to "jaggies". Then again, I grew up playing lots of pixel-doubled games when I was growing up. What a lot of the nicer console emulators support as far as upconversion is a simplified attempt to mimc the blooming from the original CRT (which, for games meant to be played on cheap color TVs of the '80s, was kind of important). I'd like to be able to do something like that, too. > The only thing I was brainstorming about when a CPU is involved is that > you could also fork the video into something like VNC protocol and send > it over a network for remote display. Given the option, I'd like to put USB and Firewire on it as well, which would generally need a CPU to at least set up a framebuffer. Any reasonable design would require a CPU for housekeeping purposes, at least; no reason it can't be directing traffic out to USB/Firewire/Ethernet as well. So far, between the FPGA, a small microcontroller, HDMI encoder and a semi-beefy quad ADC (video people: 12 bits at max 65 MHz ought to be enough for a lot of applications, right?), an audio ADC and associated buffering, the parts come to about $110 in quantity 10. That doesn't factor in the PCB (which won't be cheap at those quantities) or the assembly (most of which could be done by hand), but it gives a reasonable picture. It also doesn't factor in the connectors, but those generally aren't expensive. I've a lot on my plate, though. I'd need more spare cycles before I handle this, and I still want to get more done on my swiss-army-knife QBUS board before I commit to any more projects. But if anyone wants to help with either of those... - Dave From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 18:42:34 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:42:34 -0800 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple II just sold for almost $4k. Wow. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261160708234 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 30 18:59:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:59:51 -0500 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> On 01/30/2013 07:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple > II just sold for almost $4k. Wow. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/261160708234 Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all the time. I even have one brand new in the box! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 19:10:14 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:10:14 -0800 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5109C476.8070006@gmail.com> On 1/30/2013 4:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. > They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a > //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all > the time. I even have one brand new in the box! -Dave Sure $1k maybe but, $4k ? Closest I can find in completed auctions was $1,500 and it was for a much nicer II. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 30 19:15:33 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:15:33 -0500 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109C476.8070006@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> <5109C476.8070006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5109C5B5.20904@neurotica.com> On 01/30/2013 08:10 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 1/30/2013 4:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. >> They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a >> //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all >> the time. I even have one brand new in the box! -Dave > > Sure $1k maybe but, $4k ? Closest I can find in completed auctions was > $1,500 and it was for a much nicer II. *shrug* Well, the machines aren't getting any more common.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 30 19:23:30 2013 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:23:30 +0000 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 31/01/2013 00:42, "mc68010" wrote: > I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple > II just sold for almost $4k. Wow. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/261160708234 Bollocks. That's the one early ][ I don't have :/ -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 19:29:17 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:29:17 -0200 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20F00128CFB0429180A1DF59A93C4027@tababook> > Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. > They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a > //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all > the time. I even have one brand new in the box! You can save one for me. Postage Paid to Brazil :o) From hagstrom at bu.edu Wed Jan 30 19:38:39 2013 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Paul Hagstrom) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:38:39 -0500 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: What's special about that one is that it's a revision zero, it's actually very rare. Low serial number too of course, but it is the board revision that is driving the price. This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over $4700, but for some reason it got re-listed. [sorry if this goes through thrice -- sent from wrong address, twice, first.] On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/30/2013 07:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple >> II just sold for almost $4k. Wow. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261160708234 > > Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. > They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a > //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all > the time. I even have one brand new in the box! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 30 20:00:10 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:00:10 -0800 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5109D02A.7040901@bitsavers.org> On 1/30/13 5:38 PM, Paul Hagstrom wrote: > This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over $4700, but for some reason it got re-listed. > look who the seller is, and where they are located (hint.. STOCKTON, CA) From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 20:12:25 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:12:25 -0800 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109D02A.7040901@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> <5109D02A.7040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5109D309.6040206@gmail.com> On 1/30/2013 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/30/13 5:38 PM, Paul Hagstrom wrote: >> This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over >> $4700, but for some reason it got re-listed. >> > > look who the seller is, and where they are located (hint.. STOCKTON, CA) > One of the things that is interesting to me about this whole Sellam/Tvrsales thing is how much the seller seems to know about the gear and how to list it. Obviously google is your friend but, they are listing so many items and they seem to have a general idea what they are selling. Much more so than many recyclers I have dealt with. Coming out of Stockton, Ca this is even more confusing to me. Seems like they must have someone that knows at least a little about vintage gear working with them on this. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Jan 30 21:37:17 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:37:17 -0800 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109D309.6040206@gmail.com> References: <5109c207.5010403@neurotica.com> <50e9cee7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <50e75b16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <5109d02a.7040901@bitsavers.org> <5109bdfa.10303@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:12:25 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: $4,000 for an Apple II ? > > On 1/30/2013 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 1/30/13 5:38 PM, Paul Hagstrom wrote: >>> This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over >>> $4700, but for some reason it got re-listed. >>> >> >> look who the seller is, and where they are located (hint.. STOCKTON, CA) >> > > One of the things that is interesting to me about this whole > Sellam/Tvrsales thing is how much the seller seems to know about the > gear and how to list it. Obviously google is your friend but, they are > listing so many items and they seem to have a general idea what they are > selling. Much more so than many recyclers I have dealt with. Coming out > of Stockton, Ca this is even more confusing to me. Seems like they must > have someone that knows at least a little about vintage gear working > with them on this. All that means is, is that people who are good at being evil aren't stupid. They've got a major cash cow, and they're milking it for all she's got. Sellam hasn't a chance now, sorry to say. They're making too much money! ____________________________________________________________ FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more! From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Jan 30 22:03:24 2013 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:03:24 +1100 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: References: <5109c207.5010403@neurotica.com> <50e9cee7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <50e75b16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <5109d02a.7040901@bitsavers.org> <5109bdfa.10303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009f01cdff67$eb329ed0$c197dc70$@internode.on.net> As much as it pains me to say it, if Sellam is successful in any litigation he has an unassailable argument as to what the minimum value of the stuff is. The culprits won't have a leg to stand on. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 2:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: $4,000 for an Apple II ? > -----Original Message----- > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:12:25 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: $4,000 for an Apple II ? > > On 1/30/2013 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 1/30/13 5:38 PM, Paul Hagstrom wrote: >>> This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over >>> $4700, but for some reason it got re-listed. >>> >> >> look who the seller is, and where they are located (hint.. STOCKTON, >> CA) >> > > One of the things that is interesting to me about this whole > Sellam/Tvrsales thing is how much the seller seems to know about the > gear and how to list it. Obviously google is your friend but, they are > listing so many items and they seem to have a general idea what they > are selling. Much more so than many recyclers I have dealt with. > Coming out of Stockton, Ca this is even more confusing to me. Seems > like they must have someone that knows at least a little about vintage > gear working with them on this. All that means is, is that people who are good at being evil aren't stupid. They've got a major cash cow, and they're milking it for all she's got. Sellam hasn't a chance now, sorry to say. They're making too much money! ____________________________________________________________ FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more! From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 30 23:37:38 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:37:38 -0600 Subject: Need help with PDP-8/A, VTServer & PDP-11 Message-ID: <085D9091-F36D-4DBE-B673-6E130F2B91F5@centurytel.net> A frustrating evening in vintage computer-land, as you will see. Also the drive belt popped off my 33ASR during the fun. And Windows Networking to the old PC I use to run VTserver was initially nonfunctional as usual, but I digress. I fired up my PDP-8/A after a long hiatus, and it won't boot OS/8 any more (on boot, the RL02 immediately flashes its Fault light briefly but then becomes ready again, and the system halts). The drive seems to be working without errors at least according to the short test programs from the user's guide I keyed in - I don't have a diagnostic pack - but reading the status register shows no error bits set, and the Oscillating Seek program also runs properly... Anyhow, I figure that the OS/8 pack might have become corrupted, so I attempted to reload it on my 11/23+ system (which IS working and passing memory tests) using VTserver, which is how I created it the first time. However, since I last successfully did it, I've upgraded the 11/23+ boot ROMs to the KDF11B-BH V1.0. This is the only hardware change. Not sure if that has anything to do with the problem, which is: When attempting to download the disk image, the copy portion of the program loads (starting at 140000) but won't execute, halting at 140002. I discovered that I had the Halt switch set. If the Halt switch is NOT set, when execution is supposed to begin, instead the 11/23+ says "ERR 4 MMU ABORT" and also won't accept the incoming disk image data! Do I need to go back to the original boot ROM in order to use VTserver (i.e. is there some change made to ODT that is messing things up?) Also, does anyone have a paper tape version of the RL02 diagnostics for PDP-8? thanks Charles From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jan 31 00:25:35 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:25:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cheap Teletype rools by the case on eBay Message-ID: <1359613535.92255.YahooMailClassic@web181604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Item # 160965266758 >From the listing: Part # 21-370, 8-7/16" X 370' of 16# bond paper, 1" cardboard core, 12 rolls per case, 99 cases available $30 per case, quoted $20 shipping to my location in California No connected with the seller, other than ordering a few. --Bill From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 17:31:00 2013 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:31:00 +0000 Subject: Looking for Appendix to HP 3.5" disc drive service manual (disc commands) Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 30, 2013, Glen Slick wrote: > Not the exact manual you were looking for but might have the same > information. This scanned copy includes pages Appendix A-1 through > A-36. > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/disc/5957-6584_9123D_3.5_Flex_Disc_Nov85.pdf Thanks Glen that's great, must have been a few minor corrections to Appendix A in this update to the original service manual. I was interested to read about the differences between the 9121 and 82901 commands, eg the 9121 supports a superset of the 82901 commands and so should be fully backwards compatible. One difference I have noted is using HPdir the 9121 appears to faster than the 82901, in that on a fast PC HPdir has to be slowed down to work successfully with the 82901 (eg by enabling logging) and works fine with the 9121, and on a slow PC both drives work fine with no attempts to further slow down the program. I've fed this back to the program author for further analysis. I can try and dump the drive firmware if anyone is interested in doing a detailed comparison. Regards, John From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Jan 30 17:53:16 2013 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:53:16 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130130193028.GJ18953@n0jcf.net> References: <20130130193028.GJ18953@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <5109B26C.5000302@comcast.net> I have created an RGB (with sync on green) to VGA converter using a lm1881. Very easy and cheap circuit. If you have a decent monitor that will filter out the sync signal leftover on the green channel it should work great. I also have some VGA to DVI/HDMI scalers which I have used to convert to HDMI (let me know if you want one), these strip the sync signal out of the green channel. From paulhagstrom at me.com Wed Jan 30 19:08:19 2013 From: paulhagstrom at me.com (Paul Hagstrom) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:08:19 -0500 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: It's a revision zero, it's very rare. Low serial number too of course, but it is the board revision that is driving the price. This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over $4700. For some reason it got re-listed. On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/30/2013 07:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple >> II just sold for almost $4k. Wow. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261160708234 > > Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. > They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a > //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all > the time. I even have one brand new in the box! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From paulhagstrom at me.com Wed Jan 30 19:18:28 2013 From: paulhagstrom at me.com (Paul Hagstrom) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:18:28 -0500 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <5109C207.5010403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5DA23F30-D946-4B11-B148-72F3CE169F24@me.com> It's a revision zero, it's very rare. Low serial number too of course, but it is the board revision that is driving the price. This same machine sold a couple of weeks earlier for a little over $4700. For some reason it got re-listed. [sorry if this goes through twice -- sent from wrong address first.] On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/30/2013 07:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple >> II just sold for almost $4k. Wow. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261160708234 > > Non-+, non-E machines have been going for big bucks for awhile now. > They dried up years ago. By contrast, you can't even give away a > //e...I must have four of the darned things now, I turn them down all > the time. I even have one brand new in the box! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From earl at retrobits.com Wed Jan 30 21:33:26 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:33:26 -0800 Subject: Nice Direct View Storage Tube Demonstration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome, made right in my backyard! I'll have to get over to see the VintageTEK museum. - Earl On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Richard wrote: > < > http://computergraphicsmuseum.org/2013/01/30/nice-direct-view-storage-tube-demonstration/ > > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 31 02:17:41 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:17:41 +0100 Subject: wanted: German translation of magazine article In-Reply-To: <00f901cdfe7c$2db79c20$8926d460$@YAHOO.COM> References: <00f901cdfe7c$2db79c20$8926d460$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <20130131081741.GA68336@beast.freibergnet.de> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! > > > > Is there any German speaking builder who would be willing to translate an > article for a well-known European hobbyist electronics magazine? (You'll > recognize the magazine but I'd rather not post that here for privacy > concerns) > > > > One of the N8VEM builders, Oscar, has written a great article in English on > the N8VEM project. We have interest from the magazine but of course they > want the article in German. > > > > Would someone who is proficient in German please volunteer to help us out? > Thank you very much in advance! I appreciate your support! > > > > Have a nice day! > > > Andrew Lynch Drop me a Mail.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From george at rachors.com Thu Jan 31 02:42:28 2013 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:42:28 -0800 Subject: Nice Direct View Storage Tube Demonstration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91D6249F-6A59-43BE-BDE1-CA4A21060907@rachors.com> OH Wow.. Me too! George Rachor On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:33 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Awesome, made right in my backyard! I'll have to get over to see the > VintageTEK museum. > > - Earl > > > > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Richard wrote: > >> < >> http://computergraphicsmuseum.org/2013/01/30/nice-direct-view-storage-tube-demonstration/ >>> >> >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < >> http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> >> The Computer Graphics Museum >> The Terminals Wiki >> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) >> > From george at rachors.com Thu Jan 31 02:42:28 2013 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:42:28 -0800 Subject: Nice Direct View Storage Tube Demonstration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91D6249F-6A59-43BE-BDE1-CA4A21060907@rachors.com> OH Wow.. Me too! George Rachor On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:33 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Awesome, made right in my backyard! I'll have to get over to see the > VintageTEK museum. > > - Earl > > > > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Richard wrote: > >> < >> http://computergraphicsmuseum.org/2013/01/30/nice-direct-view-storage-tube-demonstration/ >>> >> >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < >> http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> >> The Computer Graphics Museum >> The Terminals Wiki >> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) >> > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 31 03:50:50 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:50:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Christian Corti >> see ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/utils/hp9122c.c >> You may change the geometry table for other track layouts. > > This link doesn't work anymore. Do you have one that works? The link does work. Have you tried FTP? After all, it's an FTP and not a HTTP server. Christian From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 07:00:07 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:00:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <1AAB407E-2DC8-487F-973A-BB50C7FD51FD@gmail.com> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <3611D0DC41914A04A256E164D96CC021@tababook> <20130130143407.GB18953@n0jcf.net> <1AAB407E-2DC8-487F-973A-BB50C7FD51FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >>>> I'm thinking a guy could make a major project out of this and use three >>>> high speed A/D ahead of some ARM based board that could acquire the video, >>>> scale and convert to taste and then output on HDMI. Should be able to >>>> handle lots of legacy analog formats that way. >>> >>> This exists, and works even for vector displays! >> >> Any hints as to where this exists? A home project or commercially >> available? I'd like to hear more... > > Definitely one of my "one of these days" projects, though I'd much > rather use an FPGA than a CPU to handle the video. I'm tired of > how awful composite video looks on my LCD TV because of their > crappy decoding (my Bt878 TV cards from the early 2000s do a much > better job) and the latency looks awful. Expanding it out to more > analog formats would be handy to a lot of folks, I guess. What > kind of price would be palatable to people? I doubt I could get > it down below $70 in any kind of realistic quantity. If you can come up with a converter that accepted 15.75KHz. RGB + H/V or composite video and spoke VGA on the output - AND was able to properly handle color aliasing (think Apple 2, Tandy CoCo, etc.), I'd pay $200 for such a thing. There are a number of SCART --> VGA converters out there and I own a few. All of them have issues of one sort or another with Apple 2 video and none can do color aliasing. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 07:03:46 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:03:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, mc68010 wrote: > I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple II > just sold for almost $4k. Wow. Rev. 0 Apple ][s with low serial numbers are being sought after. Another unit went for > $5k the other week, but the buyer apparently reneged. If that was one of Sellam's, it's all the more ammunition for his legal action. I can accept that there may be cases where a landlord can auction items left on premises under a default, but I'm not aware of any situation where they are allowed to blindly profit from the action. Steve -- From bthomas at brothom.nl Thu Jan 31 07:46:20 2013 From: bthomas at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:46:20 +0100 Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <510A75AC.2020703@brothom.nl> > I can accept that there may be cases where a landlord can auction items > left on premises under a default, but I'm not aware of any situation > where they are allowed to blindly profit from the action. > They don't do they? It's another party that's profiting? From tingox at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 03:18:15 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:18:15 +0100 Subject: HP LIF floppy disks and bad sectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Christian Corti > wrote: >> I have written a small utility that reads/writes HP 9122C disk images (using >> HP's native track layout, not the normal "PC" HD floppy layout), >> see ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/utils/hp9122c.c >> You may change the geometry table for other track layouts. > > This link doesn't work anymore. Do you have one that works? OK, it works now. Must have been a temporary failure. (Thanks to John S for making me aware of this) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 11:09:28 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:09:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <510A75AC.2020703@brothom.nl> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <5109BDFA.10303@gmail.com> <510A75AC.2020703@brothom.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jan 2013, Bert Thomas wrote: >> I can accept that there may be cases where a landlord can auction items >> left on premises under a default, but I'm not aware of any situation >> where they are allowed to blindly profit from the action. >> > > They don't do they? It's another party that's profiting? Something really smells bad about the whole thing, almost as if there's collusion between the landlord and the various recyclers. I really hope that Sellam gets some relief through the legal system, but if he's really in the middle of a big "good old boys" network that may be an uphill fight. -- From wilson at dbit.com Thu Jan 31 15:40:02 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:40:02 -0500 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: References: <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20130131214001.GA5979@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:05:03PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >I've never seen a printset for th VT240 (it wasn't on bitsavers last time >I looked), and I've not traced out schematics of mine yet. Great timing -- I just now blundered onto this on Alan Baldwin's site: http://shop-pdp.net/~stuff/PDFs/DEC/VT240_Print_Set.pdf John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 14:47:39 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:47:39 +0000 Subject: Need help with PDP-8/A, VTServer & PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <085D9091-F36D-4DBE-B673-6E130F2B91F5@centurytel.net> References: <085D9091-F36D-4DBE-B673-6E130F2B91F5@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <510AD86B.8020007@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2013 05:37, Charles wrote: > Anyhow, I figure that the OS/8 pack might have become corrupted, so I > attempted to reload it on my 11/23+ system (which IS working and passing > memory tests) using VTserver, which is how I created it the first time. > However, since I last successfully did it, I've upgraded the 11/23+ boot > ROMs to the KDF11B-BH V1.0. This is the only hardware change. Not sure > if that has anything to do with the problem > Do I need to go back to the original boot ROM in order to use VTserver > (i.e. is there some change made to ODT that is messing things up?) The boot ROMs have no bearing on ODT, which is in the microcode in the KDF11 itself. So you can eliminate at least one area of concern. What boot ROMs did you have before? Were they 2K ones (11/23+) or 8K ones (microPDP-11/23)? Have you changed any jumpers during the upgrade? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Thu Jan 31 15:13:35 2013 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:13:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi Message-ID: <1359666815.72040.androidMobile@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> hey have a look http://bit.ly/14tqlrm JC From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 31 16:05:58 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:05:58 -0700 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <1359666815.72040.androidMobile@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1359666815.72040.androidMobile@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1359666815.72040.androidMobile at web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, JC White writes: > hey have a look [spam] Maybe a moderator should unsubscribe him until he gets his account disinfected? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 31 15:50:14 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:50:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for Appendix to HP 3.5" disc drive service manual (disc commands) In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Jan 30, 13 11:31:00 pm Message-ID: > I was interested to read about the differences between the 9121 and > 82901 commands, eg the 9121 supports a superset of the 82901 commands > and so should be fully backwards compatible. One difference I have noted I beleive it was specifically designed to be. It was intended that any systme that supported the 82901 could also use the 9121, no matter waht assumptions it made. In this repsect, the respose to the standard idenmtification coammends is the same, there is one extended command that returns a differnet value o nthe 2 drives so it is possible to tell them apart, but a ssytsem designed fo the 82901 wouldn't use that command. Also the total numebr of sectors per disk is the same -- IIRC the 82901 is double-sided 35 cylidner and the 9121 is single sided 70 cylinder. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jan 31 20:16:06 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:16:06 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130131214001.GA5979@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130130025919.GD10397@n0jcf.net> <20130131214001.GA5979@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20130201021606.GF10397@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/31/2013 at 04:40PM -0500), John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:05:03PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >I've never seen a printset for th VT240 (it wasn't on bitsavers last time > >I looked), and I've not traced out schematics of mine yet. > > Great timing -- I just now blundered onto this on Alan Baldwin's site: > > http://shop-pdp.net/~stuff/PDFs/DEC/VT240_Print_Set.pdf yes-- and there were other documents on bitsavers even last weekend when I went looking for them, http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/terminal/vt240/ EK-VT240-RM-002_VT240_Programmer_Reference_Manual_Oct84.pdf 13-May-2008 17:33 14M EK-VT240-TM-001_VT240_Technical_Manual_Aug84.pdf 05-Jul-2012 03:59 7.3M VT240_Schematic_Jun83.pdf 05-Jul-2012 03:59 4.4M Good stuff. Thanks guys. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From rob at bitscience.ca Thu Jan 31 17:07:01 2013 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:07:01 -0800 Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm having intermittent problems with my Superpet. It will run fine for some time, but then will "glitch" for a couple of seconds (including video distortion), and then hang. Having done a bit of digging, I suspect that the flyback transformer is arcing internally. The video board is the one in this schematic (http://zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/s...032/321448.gif). I can hear the arcing sound from area of the transformer when the glitch occurs, and I see no obvious external indications of anything sparking or shorting. I have looked at the voltages at the various test points noted on the video board schematic during normal operation, and they all appear OK. I'm sort of stuck at this point. Should I replace the flyback? The part number is 2432641AL 25M, and it's T721 on the board; does anyone know of an available equivalent? Alternatively, could this behaviour be caused by a bad electrolytic capacitor? I'm specifically suspicious of C754 (47uF/250V), but my knowledge of CRT theory is not deep, and I lack a good way to test the capacitor in circuit. Thanks for any help anyone can provide. Rob Ferguson