From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 00:24:43 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration Message-ID: I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. Problem 2) The image on the monitor is canted a few degrees clockwise -- enough to be noticable and irritating. Problem 3) I've figured out how to format a Mac floppy under Linux and transfer files by floppy, but I'm unclear how I should get two needed utilities: binhex and unstuff onto a Mac floppy without mangling the resource and data forks. Please help. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 01:30:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 02:30:53 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5092171D.9040209@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 01:24 AM, David Griffith wrote: > I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. > > Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being > read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from > inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. This is likely subharmonic trace resonances in the CPU board. I don't think you'll be able to do much about that. > Problem 2) The image on the monitor is canted a few degrees clockwise -- > enough to be noticable and irritating. Power it off. Pop it open, slightly loosen the clamp on the CRT's yoke, and turn it a bit to correct. BE VERY CAREFUL, and DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE POWER ON. There's serious high voltage in that area. > Problem 3) I've figured out how to format a Mac floppy under Linux and > transfer files by floppy, but I'm unclear how I should get two needed > utilities: binhex and unstuff onto a Mac floppy without mangling the > resource and data forks. This is a guess, but I believe there's a Linux implementation of StuffIt which might help with this. (I know it was ported to UNIX; I have the Solaris/SPARC version) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 01:33:57 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:33:57 -0700 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509217D5.8040709@gmail.com> On 10/31/2012 10:24 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. > > Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being > read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from > inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. > > Problem 2) The image on the monitor is canted a few degrees clockwise -- > enough to be noticable and irritating. > > Problem 3) I've figured out how to format a Mac floppy under Linux and > transfer files by floppy, but I'm unclear how I should get two needed > utilities: binhex and unstuff onto a Mac floppy without mangling the > resource and data forks. > > Please help. Problem 1 /could/ be inductors or capacitors in the switching power supply. Problem 2 is easy. The deflection coils/yoke on the neck of the CRT has been rotated. This is common if roughly handled. Loosen the fastener and rotate the yoke a few degrees counter-clockwise... Re-tighten the fastener. Normal warnings about electrocuting yourself apply. Make sure the monitor is unplugged and to discharge the high voltage. Bob. From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Nov 1 01:48:01 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:48:01 +1000 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/11/2012, at 3:24 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. > > Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. Just a guess, but the last few SE30's I've come across have all had at least a few dried out capacitors causing problems.. This could be the reason for problem 1. Cheers, Chris From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 01:56:23 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Chris Pye wrote: > > On 01/11/2012, at 3:24 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. >> >> Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being >> read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from >> inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. > > Just a guess, but the last few SE30's I've come across have all had at > least a few dried out capacitors causing problems.. This could be the > reason for problem 1. When I played with this Mac last year, the noise problem wasn't present. Now that it has been running for a couple hours, the screeching is gone. I suppose a recapping of the power supply and monitor would be a good idea anyhow. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Nov 1 02:11:58 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 17:11:58 +1000 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> On 01/11/2012, at 4:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > When I played with this Mac last year, the noise problem wasn't present. Now that it has been running for a couple hours, the screeching is gone. I suppose a recapping of the power supply and monitor would be a good idea anyhow. I would be inclined to check for ripple on the power supply lines first, if it's ok then the problem could be on the logic board. Chris From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Nov 1 02:17:00 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:17:00 +1300 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the the sounds are like a falling bomb coming through the speakers, then it is likely to be failing capacitors on the main board. This is a known issue with the baby Macs. Terry (Tez) On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Chris Pye wrote: > > >> On 01/11/2012, at 3:24 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. >>> >>> Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being >>> read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from inside. >>> The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. >>> >> >> Just a guess, but the last few SE30's I've come across have all had at >> least a few dried out capacitors causing problems.. This could be the >> reason for problem 1. >> > > When I played with this Mac last year, the noise problem wasn't present. > Now that it has been running for a couple hours, the screeching is gone. I > suppose a recapping of the power supply and monitor would be a good idea > anyhow. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 02:26:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 00:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Chris Pye wrote: > > On 01/11/2012, at 4:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> When I played with this Mac last year, the noise problem wasn't >> present. Now that it has been running for a couple hours, the >> screeching is gone. I suppose a recapping of the power supply and >> monitor would be a good idea anyhow. > > I would be inclined to check for ripple on the power supply lines first, > if it's ok then the problem could be on the logic board. I'll have to wait until I can get an oscilloscope to do that bit of surgery. One last thing before I turn in... does anyone remember how to associate a file type with a particular application in MacOS 6? My goal is to get it so I can click on a text file and have BBedit open it up for me. Tomorrow I'll see about getting this machine to talk to a Linux server running Netatalk. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 02:34:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 03:34:06 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <509225EE.8020508@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 03:26 AM, David Griffith wrote: > One last thing before I turn in... does anyone remember how to > associate a file type with a particular application in MacOS 6? My goal > is to get it so I can click on a text file and have BBedit open it up > for me. Isn't in the "Get Info" dialog box, the file type and creator, specified as four characters? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:22:36 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:22:36 +0000 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: <5091F38F.6080809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5091F38F.6080809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5092314C.9030503@gmail.com> On 01/11/2012 03:59, ben wrote: > On 10/31/2012 9:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> The P112 draws about 150 milliamps not including the floppy drives. If >> you do what many others have and use an old external hard drive chassis, >> you can use that power supply. > > If I had that, I would not be asking what to use. > I am thinking of that getting that kit, but have no spare parts > kicking around the house as most kit salesman have you to believe. > If I have to buy parts here and there, I would be better off with a > Coco III > and Nitro/9. > Probably a good choice for standalone CoCo III programs... >> I'm not sure what you mean by "emulate computer in the 12 to 24 bit >> range, and still have reasonably fake I/O". >> > > I want to run some classic computer emulators, but as a standalone If you want emulation you probably need the speed of a PC CPU to get there... > product rather having to power on a full sized PC. Notebooks and laptops > still count as a PC. As far as I know, nobody is selling FPGA clones > of any > of the older products. > Ben. > > > The P112 is a real old computer and as such it doesn't emulate anything. It all runs native. You also need a separate serial terminal (or a PC) to make it work. If you want to run "some classic computer emulators" then you might want to look at the Raspberry PI. Its small enough to meet your needs. If you are just using a keyboard and mouse then its self contained. Trouble is its a bit on the slow side, and only a few emulators have been ported to the ARM architecture.... PDP/11 - SIMH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hfbkdP0B4 Amiga http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A35MhabP_8 I know the Hercules mainframe emulator has also been ported... .. but no one seems to have ported any of the CoCo emulators yet... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:48:06 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:48:06 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <9F2EA7BAC991452992CF480CDB9667FB@tababook> :oP I ENVY YOU ALL :oP :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:49 PM Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > At 2:24 PM -0400 10/31/12, David Betz wrote: >>On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Does anyone have this? >>> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >>> >>> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >>> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) >> >>Wow! This looks like it will be a very interesting book. I guess now that >>I've ordered it from amazon.com I ought to think about actually acquiring >>an Apple II machine! :-) > > Mine will be here tomorrow, I guess I should see about digging out an > Apple II tonight! :-) > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:49:06 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:49:06 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <768B1F9CE2104980898A4BA1F673C004@tababook> >> WOW, a Metcal... :oO > Yup, SP-200. > - life is too short to use crappy tools > - crappy tools are a false economy I have a weller WTCPN...A pair, to be true. For some 20 years :oD But never ever saw a Metcal before me, forget afford it :( From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:49:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:49:46 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> > Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take > some more pics. > [cue 70s porn music] You should open your house for visitation and get a fee for each visitor :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:51:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:51:45 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7E99F6D1196448AB815D798155CCEAD6@tababook> > I dunno...it doesn't look all that bad, and through-hole makes assembly > easier for most people. ;P That is the point. Not only you can build your board, but also make it. The first prototypes (single side with top silk) were done at my house. Photos in http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2012/09/fotos-da-placa-prototipo-gen7-v12-br2.html > The main thing I would have done differently with the board design/routing > would be to avoid turning resistors and jumper wires at odd angles and > widen the lead spacing for the resistors where it is -really- small. Some Why? It shaved some jumpers! :oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:52:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:52:46 -0200 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , , , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121029164713.Y77689@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8A91CF0AF5DD407AAAF9F4760BC285B6@tababook> >drive mirror was a LCD display with the track and sector also had LEDs for >half-track and density. >from my research, the ads were in transactor and such, but apparently none >ever made it to market,which is too >bad, because it's a very cool little >thing for the 1541 If you know how a floppy works, you can make it with no time. Just CMOS counters and you're set From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:54:26 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:54:26 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> <5091D352.30803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7746EAF3B5ED4A8F83C58FBFB6B52CFB@tababook> > The whole electronics package is just a mess. Yep, but it is cheap and it works :o) That's the point. Every guy can make yours, even you (haha) in USA. http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2012/09/fotos-da-placa-prototipo-gen7-v12-br2.html This was done at my home (no, the ugly guy on the photo isn't me) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 03:58:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:58:23 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <20121031132358.D38726@shell.lmi.net> <5091DEAD.609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3DA23E4DFF774DDDABB127F9E8D2CED3@tababook> >>> Does she have a sister? >> >> Yes. 58 I think. (years old, not number of sisters) > > It should be "Does she have a sister and is she single? And 30 years old or less? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 04:07:39 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:07:39 +0100 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:18:24 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Close-up of soldering bench: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG Hmmmm. I see Metcal. Are they really that much better then anything else? Currently I am thinking about purchasing an Oki MFR-2241. The Oki is not that expensive as a Metcal, but uses the same Smart Heat technology that Oki got from Metcal. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 1 04:30:43 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:30:43 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 31 October 2012 18:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > If you look deeper into that sort of statement, you'll find it's > deeply disrespectful. For me, that relationship would have ended on the > spot. Heh. There is loads of cable equipment behind the television. I took one of those wicker boxes you get at Pier 1 and put it all in the box, which hides the wires. It's probably (slightly) less safe having it all stuffed into that box, but you can't see the wires now, so it's better. "The secret of a successful marriage is for the man to keep his mouth shut, and his wallet open." -Groucho Marx -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 04:31:50 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:31:50 +0100 Subject: GPIB/HPIB disk and device enulation for PC In-Reply-To: References: <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121101103150.9de4ef1a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:50:07 -0700 "jim davis" wrote: > Is there a hpib/gpib device server emulator that works with linux or win XP? > I would like to get my HP 9000/340 to boot from a emulated drive. The 340 has no SCSI? My 345 has SCSI and HPIB / GPIB build in. Only one interface is routed to the outside as there is only space for one connector on the back plate. Getting SCSI out of it is just a matter of pluging in a ribbon cable and letting it hang out of the back. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 1 04:32:54 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:32:54 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 1 November 2012 02:20, wrote: > I think that may just be a cut down on your cable management j/k. Pretty sure the ladies like that and she'd be happy for you to increase that budget. > Yeah, I've found that hiding wires is a good plan. I also plan to set up an 8-bit computer lab in the loft. She never goes up there. I've been trying to get that room for ages, but children (teenagers) keep rotating up there, as they rotate out of the house. Here's hoping the oldest one doesn't come back (to live). (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 1 04:33:36 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:33:36 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <20121101025648.GH29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <20121101025648.GH29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 1 November 2012 02:56, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > If you listen really well, with both statements you can hear a divorce > lawyer quietly counting money in the background ... I once got away with, "I thought you people were supposed to be jolly." -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 04:42:48 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:42:48 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D26C344-DE9B-4D11-BA42-E43F0C774FC1@gmail.com> On 1 Nov 2012, at 6:24 , David Griffith wrote: > Problem 3) I've figured out how to format a Mac floppy under Linux and transfer files by floppy, but I'm unclear how I should get two needed utilities: binhex and unstuff onto a Mac floppy without mangling the resource and data forks. Been here, yet: ? .tsooJ -- I propose a corollary to Godwin's Law: substitute 'Linux' for 'Hitler'. - SkyWriter in comp.sys.sgi.misc -- Joost van de Griek From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 05:07:22 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 06:07:22 -0400 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <509249DA.5020003@verizon.net> On 10/31/2012 10:50 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/28/2012 4:47 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I did some number crunching and decided that I can indeed produce P112 >> kits with all the parts you'll need. See http://661.org/p112 or >> http://p112.feedle.net >> > So what can you use for a power supply? > I need a compete bundle. Partial kits tend to nickel and dime > me. 39 cent part. $49.50 fedex does not work. > Ben. > What I am also looking for is single board computer > than I get a prom burned that will let me emulate computer > in the 12 to 24 bit range, and still have reasonable fake I/O. > > Using a Z80 (P112 is Z180 , but the core is still z80) 8bitter regardless of speed will emulate a lot of stuff... S..L..O..W..L..Y.....! Is that what you want or are you thinking 32bit A9 ARM core at 400mhz?? Allison > > > From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Nov 1 06:33:44 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 12:33:44 +0100 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121101113344.GB53908@beast.freibergnet.de> nierveze wrote: > hello Holm, > I did not find the way to get the vms cd distribution cd I bought from > montagar several years ago,I do not know if they still do it????a way > remains to get vms software : > from time to time cd appear on ebay with complete distributions,I looked > today :a few offers are present not very expensive with vms vax 7.1 .I do > not know if it is possible to get licenses for hobby now,without them > layered products are not usable but remember that > without license you can use vms with all its utilities and assembly > language for one user from the terminal console,and lots of freeware > exist:c language,apl also but alas not fortran ,also cmuip to go to > internet exists and really it is impossible to describe all what is > available,and as recent versions of vms (6 and 7 )can use iso cdroms ,any > cdrom burnt on a pc will be usable ...best regards > Alain Nierveze I do have a license as I already wrote, have to renew it in January next year. I think that copy I have is 7.1 and I have it installed inclusive DecWindows. Kind Regards, Holm > www.radio-astronomie.com > nierveze at radio-astronomie.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Holm Tiffe" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:15 PM > Subject: Re: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? > > > >Scott Quinn wrote: > > > >> > >> Josh writes: > >> > >> > >>> > >>>I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have > >>>the > >>>original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the > >>>MicroVAX > >>>I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) > >>>for > >>>older versions of VMS? > >>> > >>>- Josh > >> > >> > >> > >>The license comes from the VMS Hobbyist Program. It's good for any > >>version of VMS, from 0.whateveryoucanfind to 8.4. > >>Even though early versions of VMS do not enforce licensing through the > >>LMF, it's still required. > >> > >>Media can be borrowed. HP doesn't care where you get it, but asks that it > >>not be posted for public download. > > > >Hmmm... > > > >I do habe an hobbyist license for my 4000/90, got an VMS Isntall CD (don't > >know the version currently) borrowed from a friend. > >So what is the correct way to get an install media for wathever Version? > > > >Regards, > > > >Holm > > > >-- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 06:46:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 07:46:49 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2012, at 1:24, David Griffith wrote: > > I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. > > Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. I've had a number of machines that did that; I guess it's just microphonics on the bus lines. It's not harmful, though I guess it could be annoying. I always thought of it as a crude CPU activity meter. :-) > Problem 2) The image on the monitor is canted a few degrees clockwise -- enough to be noticable and irritating. There's probably a monitor yoke adjustment for that, but I'll leave that to the more skilled folks. I can look in my copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls (which only covers up to the SE, but should be close enough). > Problem 3) I've figured out how to format a Mac floppy under Linux and transfer files by floppy, but I'm unclear how I should get two needed utilities: binhex and unstuff onto a Mac floppy without mangling the resource and data forks. I might be able to cook up a floppy image you can just dd onto the disk (no worrying about resource forks then). I'll try to do that today; StuffIt Expander should really be all you need, since it handles most common Mac file interchange formats (.sit, .bin, .hqx and even .zip, which was never common on the Mac until OS X). After that, if you find an Ethernet card for it (they don't go for all that much on eBay), you can run a 2.x version of Netatalk on your Linux box to act as a file server (they dropped AppleTalk support with 3.0, and most systems you're likely to run on the SE/30 don't do AFP over TCP. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 06:52:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 07:52:58 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <509225EE.8020508@neurotica.com> References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> <509225EE.8020508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2012, at 3:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/01/2012 03:26 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> One last thing before I turn in... does anyone remember how to >> associate a file type with a particular application in MacOS 6? My goal >> is to get it so I can click on a text file and have BBedit open it up >> for me. > > Isn't in the "Get Info" dialog box, the file type and creator, specified as four characters? Not the regular "get info" box, but there was an excellent third-party utility called "Get More Info" which would let you see and edit file attributes like type/creator and various flags. I highly recommend it. What I think Dave is talking about is changing the association of text files so they're not opened with TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a lot of these guys installed. - Dave From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 07:11:58 2012 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Rich Cini) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:11:58 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FE08F55-0D57-4CB8-BC61-8BEC6933F687@verizon.net> On #3, I used HFEexplorer on a PC and copied files directly to a 1.44mb floppy disk (I think the SE/30 has a 1.44mb drive). Rich Cini Sent from my iPhone On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:46 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 1, 2012, at 1:24, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. >> >> Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. > > I've had a number of machines that did that; I guess it's just > microphonics on the bus lines. It's not harmful, though I > guess it could be annoying. I always thought of it as a > crude CPU activity meter. :-) > >> Problem 2) The image on the monitor is canted a few degrees clockwise -- enough to be noticable and irritating. > > There's probably a monitor yoke adjustment for that, > but I'll leave that to the more skilled folks. I can look > in my copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls (which only > covers up to the SE, but should be close enough). > >> Problem 3) I've figured out how to format a Mac floppy under Linux and transfer files by floppy, but I'm unclear how I should get two needed utilities: binhex and unstuff onto a Mac floppy without mangling the resource and data forks. > > I might be able to cook up a floppy image you can > just dd onto the disk (no worrying about resource forks > then). I'll try to do that today; StuffIt Expander should > really be all you need, since it handles most common Mac > file interchange formats (.sit, .bin, .hqx and even .zip, which > was never common on the Mac until OS X). > > After that, if you find an Ethernet card for it (they don't go > for all that much on eBay), you can run a 2.x version of > Netatalk on your Linux box to act as a file server (they > dropped AppleTalk support with 3.0, and most systems > you're likely to run on the SE/30 don't do AFP over TCP. > > > - Dave From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 07:19:53 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 08:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 1, 2012, at 1:24, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. >> >> Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being >> read or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from >> inside. The volume control does nothing to quell this noise. > > I've had a number of machines that did that; I guess it's just > microphonics on the bus lines. It's not harmful, though I > guess it could be annoying. I always thought of it as a > crude CPU activity meter. :-) Almost certainly dried-up bypass caps in the analog circuitry. Plan on honing up your SMD rework skills and replace all of them. See: http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/repairEng.html for some valuable troubleshooting tips. Unless you're a real wizard with a hot-air pencil, there are at least a few that are easier to replace using radial-lead packages with the leads bent out 90-degrees. In retrospect, I probably should have done all of them that way the last I went through this exercise. Steve -- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 1 08:11:52 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 06:45 PM, geneb wrote: >> Ahh! That explains it. I'm unable to resolve where the machine stops >> and the workbench starts. :) > > Yeah, it's a bit, erm, "busy" over there. I took some lab pics at the > request of a friend yesterday...I sent them to the hecnet list, I may as > well share them here as well. > Very nice. Strangely enough, the first thing I identified was the Atari 800 in the background of the soldering station pic. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 08:20:30 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:20:30 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> <509225EE.8020508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:52 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 1, 2012, at 3:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > What I think Dave is talking about is changing the > association of text files so they're not opened with > TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember > exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility > for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which > was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a > lot of these guys installed. One of the later versions of MacOS (8 or 9) introduced a control panel like the file type association screen in Windows, that let you explicitly set what program opens what type of file, along with MIME types. There's also Internet Config, which sets MIME type associations, but I think it might do default handlers as well. Classic MacOS had two pieces of metadata for every file - the file type and file creator. File type does what it sounds like, whereas the file creator tells the OS what application created it, and which one should open it. So it would be possible to have .C and .H files created with Metrowerks open with Metrowerks, and .C and .H files created with BBEdit open with BBEdit, even though they are the same type of file, and you could explicitly open them from within BBEdit or Metrowerks. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 1 08:24:10 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 31, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/31/2012 08:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> WOW, a Metcal... :oO >> >> Yup, SP-200. >> >> - life is too short to use crappy tools >> - crappy tools are a false economy > > I agree, in general. I've been quite happy with my Hakko > (recommended by Gene, bought for my birthday by my wife), Did you get the FX-888? I'm VERY pleased with mine. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 1 08:39:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: from Jason McBrien at "Nov 1, 12 09:20:30 am" Message-ID: <201211011339.qA1DdivH29884626@floodgap.com> > > What I think Dave is talking about is changing the > > association of text files so they're not opened with > > TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember > > exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility > > for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which > > was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a > > lot of these guys installed. > > One of the later versions of MacOS (8 or 9) introduced a control panel like > the file type association screen in Windows, that let you explicitly set > what program opens what type of file, along with MIME types. If you're talking about the PC Exchange control panel, I think it was just file extensions. You could get it for System 7 as well. The Classic Mac OS didn't really deal much in MIME types outside of Internet Config. ResEdit will let you change type/creator codes very easily and is an essential tool for classic Macs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NetBSD - a devil of an operating system. -- Julian Assange ----------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 1 08:42:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Nov 1, 12 07:52:58 am" Message-ID: <201211011342.qA1Dgiog29884648@floodgap.com> > What I think Dave is talking about is changing the > association of text files so they're not opened with > TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember > exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility > for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which > was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a > lot of these guys installed. You just change the creator code. For example, R*ch would open it in BBEdit (Rich Siegel's little easter egg). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If I wanted your opinion, I'd have beaten it out of you. ------------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 08:51:54 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:51:54 -0400 Subject: Soldering irons (was: RepRapping) In-Reply-To: References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05068DDF-DA2A-4C47-995A-353A9D363DEB@gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2012, at 9:24 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > >> I agree, in general. I've been quite happy with my Hakko >> (recommended by Gene, bought for my birthday by my wife), > > Did you get the FX-888? I'm VERY pleased with mine. Yup! The included chisel tip worked fine for what I needed it for immediately (fixing my Quadra 700, which involved extracting corroded battery posts from a ground plane), but I need to get some pointier bits soon. Fortunately, they're not terribly expensive. Truth be told, I'm also almost as glad to have an iron with a real switch (i.e. not the one on the power strip!) as I am to have a temp controlled one. I've lived with my old 30W Weller for far too long; I had almost forgotten what it was like to have a nice iron, since I never come into the office at work anymore. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 08:55:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:55:01 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <201211011342.qA1Dgiog29884648@floodgap.com> References: <201211011342.qA1Dgiog29884648@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <854EE207-A907-44DA-8D2A-A856DAE599A8@gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> What I think Dave is talking about is changing the >> association of text files so they're not opened with >> TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember >> exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility >> for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which >> was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a >> lot of these guys installed. > > You just change the creator code. For example, R*ch would open it in > BBEdit (Rich Siegel's little easter egg). Oh, sure. That works. There is *also* a utility out there somewhere to change the type/creator association for double- clicks (for example, I found out by accident that AIM had claimed all files with creator code "oscr" and had to steal it back because I had used that for all mine as well). It's a hell of a lot more convenient to make BBEdit claim all text files with a particular creator code than it is to change all text files to creator code "R*ch". - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 08:56:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:56:04 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <201211011339.qA1DdivH29884626@floodgap.com> References: <201211011339.qA1DdivH29884626@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <96066470-B980-45FD-B2F5-DAF9D5C5830B@gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ResEdit will let you change type/creator codes very easily and is an > essential tool for classic Macs. Well, yes. If you don't have ResEdit, you should. But the Get More Info utility is a lot handier for doing quick changes on the fly (it shortcuts to Cmd-Opt-I). - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 1 09:01:42 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 07:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <20121101113344.GB53908@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121101113344.GB53908@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I do have a license as I already wrote, have to renew it in January next > year. I think that copy I have is 7.1 and I have it installed inclusive > DecWindows. > Do the old license PAKs work on newer releases? I've got a few from the 5.x era... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 1 09:08:39 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soldering irons (was: RepRapping) In-Reply-To: <05068DDF-DA2A-4C47-995A-353A9D363DEB@gmail.com> References: <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> <05068DDF-DA2A-4C47-995A-353A9D363DEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 1, 2012, at 9:24 AM, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: >> >>> I agree, in general. I've been quite happy with my Hakko >>> (recommended by Gene, bought for my birthday by my wife), >> >> Did you get the FX-888? I'm VERY pleased with mine. > > Yup! The included chisel tip worked fine for what I needed > it for immediately (fixing my Quadra 700, which involved > extracting corroded battery posts from a ground plane), but > I need to get some pointier bits soon. Fortunately, they're > not terribly expensive. > Yep. The tips for the 936 irons also work on the '888. What surprised me is that there's a number of different color schemes for the iron, but only blue/yellow is available in the US. > Truth be told, I'm also almost as glad to have an iron with > a real switch (i.e. not the one on the power strip!) as I > am to have a temp controlled one. I've lived with my old > 30W Weller for far too long; I had almost forgotten what it > was like to have a nice iron, since I never come into the > office at work anymore. I have an ancient Weller that the prior owner actually installed a power switch on as well as made the iron interchangable by adding a small DIN plug to the cord and on the face of the iron stand. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 09:26:31 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 15:26:31 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> <509225EE.8020508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <83B7751F-B2DC-463C-AF95-06F987CA5E33@gmail.com> On 1 Nov 2012, at 12:52 , David Riley wrote: > On Nov 1, 2012, at 3:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 11/01/2012 03:26 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> One last thing before I turn in... does anyone remember how to >>> associate a file type with a particular application in MacOS 6? My goal >>> is to get it so I can click on a text file and have BBedit open it up >>> for me. >> >> Isn't in the "Get Info" dialog box, the file type and creator, specified as four characters? > > What I think Dave is talking about is changing the > association of text files so they're not opened with > TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember > exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility > for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which > was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a > lot of these guys installed. I believe that was set in PC Exchange. .tsooJ -- Do you really think that when Jesus comes back he'll want to see a cross? -- Joost van de Griek From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 1 09:55:07 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <854EE207-A907-44DA-8D2A-A856DAE599A8@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Nov 1, 12 09:55:01 am" Message-ID: <201211011455.qA1Et7Zi30277804@floodgap.com> > > You just change the creator code. For example, R*ch would open it in > > BBEdit (Rich Siegel's little easter egg). > > Oh, sure. That works. There is *also* a utility out there > somewhere to change the type/creator association for double- > clicks (for example, I found out by accident that AIM had > claimed all files with creator code "oscr" and had to steal > it back because I had used that for all mine as well). I assume that modifies the Desktop file? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm in perpetual denial." ---------------- From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 09:56:38 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:56:38 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think the trick is to mod the consoles when they're gone. Then you can at least pretend its an 8bit system once and a while. Even the kids might like it. My wife accidentally left me home with the wii and it was quite quick and painless to get homebrew code on there. The kids (young) don't know how to get to it yet but have enjoyed the nes games quite a bit. My younger daughter surprised me with the comment that Galaga was "the best game in the world. " -----Original Message----- From: John Many Jars Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 09:32:54 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide On 1 November 2012 02:20, wrote: > I think that may just be a cut down on your cable management j/k. Pretty sure the ladies like that and she'd be happy for you to increase that budget. > Yeah, I've found that hiding wires is a good plan. I also plan to set up an 8-bit computer lab in the loft. She never goes up there. I've been trying to get that room for ages, but children (teenagers) keep rotating up there, as they rotate out of the house. Here's hoping the oldest one doesn't come back (to live). (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 1 10:04:10 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:04:10 -0700 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> On 11/1/12 2:07 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > I see Metcal. Are they really that much better then anything > else? I stopped using anything else once I had used one on the bench at Apple. The only problem I've had are the tips failing to heat up (and that the replacements aren't cheap). They work really really well for SMT. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 10:06:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 11:06:13 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <201211011455.qA1Et7Zi30277804@floodgap.com> References: <201211011455.qA1Et7Zi30277804@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2C6F5F0E-D393-4CDD-932D-2901FDCFDD38@gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2012, at 10:55 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You just change the creator code. For example, R*ch would open it in >>> BBEdit (Rich Siegel's little easter egg). >> >> Oh, sure. That works. There is *also* a utility out there >> somewhere to change the type/creator association for double- >> clicks (for example, I found out by accident that AIM had >> claimed all files with creator code "oscr" and had to steal >> it back because I had used that for all mine as well). > > I assume that modifies the Desktop file? That is my recollection; I recall using it along with a utility called "Save a BNDL" which updates the desktop database when you've changed things like file icons in an application's resource and the Finder hasn't "caught up" to the change from the main app. There's a lot of interesting info on the Desktop file and its contents here by the fellow who maintained Save a BNDL and several other Desktop file utils: http://www.tempel.org/macdev/index.html It's rather instructive on the file->application lookup process, among other things. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 1 10:07:47 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 08:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > bit. My younger daughter surprised me with the comment that Galaga was > "the best game in the world. " Very smart girl you have there. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 1 10:21:18 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:21:18 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CA89B79-4AB9-4405-963D-0B04D1AB2FE6@pocnet.net> Am 01.11.2012 um 07:48 schrieb Chris Pye: > Just a guess, but the last few SE30's I've come across have all had > at least a few dried out capacitors causing problems.. This could be > the reason for problem 1. Yes, but one should be really really careful. In fact, the caps are dried out, because they leak their inside onto the board. This corrosive liquid creeps everywhere if it isn't stopped by excessive dust on the board. I killed two boards by cleaning with too much solvent. I suspict some chips aren't leakproof anymore. The cleaning liquid got inside and destroyed somehing in there. Being really really careful, cleaning the cap fluid contamiated areas with with a q-tip and some solvent (I use Kontakt WL) is the first step to go. Then, re-check if the machine's still working. When it is, change caps and the machine will hopefully do another 25 years. These are my records about my latest repair. Sorry for the bad google translation: http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkb.pocnet.net%2Fwiki%2FMac_SE%2F30_Defekt If I had time and knowledge of this digital stuff, I'd start a project for a replacement board for the SE/30 with modern components, being fully compatible to the old one. :wq! PoC From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 10:21:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 11:21:45 -0400 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/1/12 2:07 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I see Metcal. Are they really that much better then anything >> else? > > I stopped using anything else once I had used one on the bench at Apple. > The only problem I've had are the tips failing to heat up (and that the > replacements aren't cheap). They work really really well for SMT. Yeah, our ones at work definitely end up failing after a few years. It would help if people would actually throw out the failed tips when they discover them so that you didn't have to swap out five or six duds before you find one that works, but perhaps they're hoping that the tips' moods will improve if they're made to sit in the holster for a while. I imagine they're so expensive because the heater is actually in the tip? - Dave From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 1 10:22:35 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:22:35 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <974094A7-A59A-4317-90D2-8914B5066F63@pocnet.net> Am 01.11.2012 um 08:17 schrieb Terry Stewart: > If the the sounds are like a falling bomb coming through the > speakers, then > it is likely to be failing capacitors on the main board. This is a > known > issue with the baby Macs. I can prove this noise from a LC, also. Recapping the board, everything's okay. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 1 10:23:45 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:23:45 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am 01.11.2012 um 07:56 schrieb David Griffith: > I suppose a recapping of the power supply and monitor would be a > good idea anyhow. The power supply is very well engineered. The only thing one should do is check and resolder broken soldering points. I never had problems with caps in there, with multiple machines. :wq! PoC From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 1 10:24:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:24:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <7E99F6D1196448AB815D798155CCEAD6@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> <7E99F6D1196448AB815D798155CCEAD6@tababook> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I dunno...it doesn't look all that bad, and through-hole makes assembly >> easier for most people. ;P > > That is the point. Not only you can build your board, but also make it. > The first prototypes (single side with top silk) were done at my house. > Photos in > http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2012/09/fotos-da-placa-prototipo-gen7-v12-br2.html > >> The main thing I would have done differently with the board >> design/routing would be to avoid turning resistors and jumper wires at >> odd angles and widen the lead spacing for the resistors where it is >> -really- small. Some > > Why? It shaved some jumpers! :oD The lead spacing on some of those resistors is just too small per the resistor manufacturer's specifications. For a prototype it is probably "ok", but not proving enough of a "shoulder" on the leads can result in cracks in the metal film inside the resistor itself. You might not even notice at first because it may still work, but over time with a little heat and humidity... It is just easier to stick with the proper lead spacing and be done with it, even if the resulting board ends up being a few cm larger. As for the angled jumpers, that likely just means the board routing needed some additional hand tuning. It looks much nicer if the /traces/ are angled so the jumpers can parallel the orientation of the resistors and other passives. For that fact, it would be even better if all of the headers and connectors were located towards the outside edges of the board. Boards with connectors clustered around the inside at random just look less professional. From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 1 10:25:50 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:25:50 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: Am 01.11.2012 um 08:26 schrieb David Griffith: > does anyone remember how to associate a file type with a particular > application in MacOS 6? Of course! Search for ResEdit or File Typer. You can change the creator code to R*ch, which is used by BBEdit. > Tomorrow I'll see about getting this machine to talk to a Linux > server running Netatalk. Working great here! :wq! PoC From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 10:43:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 11:43:50 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <83B7751F-B2DC-463C-AF95-06F987CA5E33@gmail.com> References: <82D9E28A-8F03-4405-B804-11AF6604C1C9@mactec.com.au> <509225EE.8020508@neurotica.com> <83B7751F-B2DC-463C-AF95-06F987CA5E33@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 1 Nov 2012, at 12:52 , David Riley wrote: > >> On Nov 1, 2012, at 3:34, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 11/01/2012 03:26 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>>> One last thing before I turn in... does anyone remember how to >>>> associate a file type with a particular application in MacOS 6? My goal >>>> is to get it so I can click on a text file and have BBedit open it up >>>> for me. >>> >>> Isn't in the "Get Info" dialog box, the file type and creator, specified as four characters? >> >> What I think Dave is talking about is changing the >> association of text files so they're not opened with >> TeachText/SimpleText by default. I don't remember >> exactly how that's done, but there's a third-party utility >> for that as well; I need to boot up my old 7300 which >> was my personal machine in the '90s, because it has a >> lot of these guys installed. > > I believe that was set in PC Exchange. Looking it up in the reference material I just posted, it seems that the hook for overriding creator codes was added in Mac OS 8 or 8.1, so that's no good for System 6. I didn't actually recall a version of BBEdit that could run under 6, but I didn't actually start to pay attention to it until about the PowerPC era. So, looks like you may be a little stuck unless someone has a better solution than changing the creator codes of all your text files to R*ch (which does not sound fun). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 10:52:27 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 11:52:27 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <7CA89B79-4AB9-4405-963D-0B04D1AB2FE6@pocnet.net> References: <7CA89B79-4AB9-4405-963D-0B04D1AB2FE6@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <6FF746E6-48E9-470B-AF00-1EEF2B326D77@gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Schindler Patrik wrote: > If I had time and knowledge of this digital stuff, I'd start a project for a replacement board for the SE/30 with modern components, being fully compatible to the old one. That would be fun! But 68030s are still quite expensive. A Coldfire reimagining would be a lot of fun, but unfortunately, most modern Coldfires use the A-line instructions for the enhanced MAC unit (multiply-accumulate, not Macintosh), so there's no A-line trap for the toolbox instructions. Alternatively, a small FPGA that could reliably emulate a 68030 probably actually costs less than the real thing, so it wouldn't be impossible. You could use super-cheap SDRAM then, as well. - Dave From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Nov 1 11:03:46 2012 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:03:46 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50929D62.10907@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/31/2012 08:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah, it's a bit, erm, "busy" over there. I took some lab pics at > the request of a friend yesterday...I sent them to the hecnet list, > I may as well share them here as well. Oh gawd am I jealous. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFQkp1iCFu3bIiwtTARAhHpAJ9C2lF9V86glX2fmoJPv5F6MYYSNwCcDu6I UnF+8AX8KSmKEpMtWxTOAfg= =K2n/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 1 11:19:04 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:19:04 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 1 November 2012 15:07, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > >> bit. My younger daughter surprised me with the comment that Galaga was >> "the best game in the world. " > > > Very smart girl you have there. :) I let my daughter play Doom when she was 4... "I want to make more blood!" -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 1 12:15:10 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:15:10 -0600 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: <509249DA.5020003@verizon.net> References: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <509249DA.5020003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5092AE1E.9050307@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/1/2012 4:07 AM, allison wrote: > > Using a Z80 (P112 is Z180 , but the core is still z80) 8bitter > regardless of speed > will emulate a lot of stuff... S..L..O..W..L..Y.....! No, I want the P112 for 8080 and cp/m. Fig Forth, Small C, Adventure ... . I still need a floppy, power supply , cables and formatted media. That I can get later. Since I have to pre-order from web site, I'll order around the 9th. I still am waiting for a few bills to come in. > Is that what you want or are you thinking 32bit A9 ARM core at 400mhz?? No, just a generic Risc & 150 Mhz. A quick on the web, seems to give small one chip clones, or full sized linux systems for single board computers. > Allison > I still want to play with classic computers, not on windows/linux machine. As I find out more about the older machines, it seems the way things worked, is you time shared on a BIG computer (360/Vax/PDP-10) in Fortran, and punched on paper tape for all the other (small) computers. Right now my big hardware/software/vaporware project is 18 bit computer, using a 2901 engine with a 400 ns clock and my own instruction set. This will give a 1.2 us memory cycle - 600 ns access time. Micro-code is 256 x 16, giving the feel of mid 1970's general purpose computer with Front panel ,16 Kw core memory, Serial I/O and small hard drive (moving head). A bios will hide the 6850 Acia, and IDE interface. I plan to emulate for now then later build the hardware on 4 PCB's. ALU,Control, Front panel and Basic memory,EEprom, 6850. Remaining memory and IDE interface on other board. Ben. From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 09:23:23 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 08:23:23 -0600 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, Message-ID: > > I'd probably even take the ribbon cable off and re-crimp it in a vise to > > make sure the connections are firm. > > I wouldn't recommend that. If the plastic guide is already fully seated > (as it should have been when the connector was pressed on at the factory) > then putting it in a vice is only likely to damage the connector. > > Trying to re-press ribbon cables is somewhat futile anyway. If individual > IDC connections are loose, it is time to clip and replace the connector > (or build a new cable if it is an inside connector). Given the nature of > the IDC terminations used in these connectors, they are unlikely to fail > on their own and most of the failures I've seen have been with cables that > people would repeatedly unplug by pulling on the cable. In a case such as > this case no amount of re-pressing the connector is going to be able to > repair the damage done to the IDC terminations. Are these cables standard 50 pin ribbon cables like those which would be used to connect up scsi drives internally? Does length matter? I suspect that maybe the cable is bad, but I don't have a replacement (the one in place is a 3 position cable that is quite short), and no tools to crimp a new cable of this type. I do have a few 5 position cables, but before I start trying random things, I am hoping to understand the cable more specifically. The cable appears to be straight through, but the connectors might "twist" connections. There could be some ground plane factor, right? Kevin From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 12:51:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <20121101025648.GH29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20121101105001.E87644@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > I once got away with, "I thought you people were supposed to be jolly." BTDT You only THINK that you got away with it. The fight will resume, unitnterrupted, when you are at a weak point. From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 1 12:53:33 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:53:33 +0100 Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: <6FF746E6-48E9-470B-AF00-1EEF2B326D77@gmail.com> References: <7CA89B79-4AB9-4405-963D-0B04D1AB2FE6@pocnet.net> <6FF746E6-48E9-470B-AF00-1EEF2B326D77@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50CFC504-2A49-4EF4-99AB-14E4799183CF@pocnet.net> Am 01.11.2012 um 16:52 schrieb David Riley: >> If I had time and knowledge of this digital stuff, I'd start a >> project for a replacement board for the SE/30 with modern >> components, being fully compatible to the old one. > > That would be fun! But 68030s are still quite expensive. > > A Coldfire reimagining would be a lot of fun, but unfortunately, > most modern Coldfires use the A-line instructions for the > enhanced MAC unit (multiply-accumulate, not Macintosh), so > there's no A-line trap for the toolbox instructions. > > Alternatively, a small FPGA that could reliably emulate a > 68030 probably actually costs less than the real thing, so > it wouldn't be impossible. You could use super-cheap SDRAM > then, as well. Yap, that was also a thought of a friend. Most of the chips used in a SE/30 are out of production for years now. So it's easier to emulate these stuff in some kind of FPGA. SDRAM would be nice, but modern chips are very huge in capacity, so it would be hard to get less memory than 256MB. ;-) Bedides that, since there's much available space on the board, the FPGA could emulate a 8390 for getting Ethernet, better video cirquity for having 256 gays on the internal screen and possibly a second graphics logic for external monitors. Since the SE/30 features the NuBus-Adressing scheme with only one slot available, this all could be done in a compatible manner. I'd pay up to 300 Euros for such a board. It's so sweet to dream... :wq! PoC From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 13:13:28 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:13:28 -0700 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5092BBC8.9050803@gmail.com> On 11/1/2012 8:21 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 11/1/12 2:07 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> I see Metcal. Are they really that much better then anything >>> else? >> > I imagine they're so expensive because the heater is actually > in the tip? They use induction or RF heating. The box is a high power RF source operating near 13 MHz. They are definitely not just a chunk of wire that gets hot. Rob. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 1 13:19:22 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 11:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <20121101105001.E87644@shell.lmi.net> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <20121101025648.GH29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20121101105001.E87644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, John Many Jars wrote: >> I once got away with, "I thought you people were supposed to be jolly." > > BTDT > You only THINK that you got away with it. > The fight will resume, unitnterrupted, when you are at a weak point. ...within the next two to twenty years. Or tomorrow. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 13:34:16 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:34:16 +0000 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: <201210302302.q9UN2Rb730474268@floodgap.com> References: <201210302302.q9UN2Rb730474268@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2012 23:02, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > Compared to Linux on low-end modern ARM hardware, RISC OS looks pretty >> > amazing. OK, so, no true memory protection, no multiuser support, no >> > pre-emptive multitasking (although there is a patch for this out >> > there, but it breaks a lot of compatibility), no virtual memory, etc., >> > but it's fast as hell and does a surprisingly large amount of all you >> > might want. >> >> Sounds like AmigaDOS minus (working) pre-emptive multitasking. I say >> this not to start a flame war (really), but because it sounds like the >> closest point of reference amongst the machines I know well. > > Dunno. I think it sounds more like classic MacOS minus virtual memory. > Either way, I'm actually picking up an Atrix dock to try this. I have an > Rpi doing nothing and I think cobbling together a RISC OS laptop is an > excellent use of my time. :))) Hurrah! Prepare to have your mind a bit bent. RO is like no other OS I've ever known, either at CLI level or in the GUI. Expect something rather more alien than, oh, say, Plan 9 or LisaOS. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 13:35:48 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:35:48 +0000 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> References: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> Message-ID: On 30 October 2012 22:50, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Are there import restrictions or somehting? I would have thoguth a couple >> of rolls of 120 could be sent by post without any problems. > > > No restrictions, but EXPENSIVE AS HELL. I've been planning in getting a > ZX-80, a ZX-81 (preferably in kit form) and a Spectrum (any model, but I'd > prefer the +2 or +3)...But mail prices from UK to Brazil are outrageous... Happy to help. They sold in the millions here and are cheap to free. If you can find a decent one on eBay or Gumtree, buy it & have it shipped to me & I'll be happy to send it on - repacked if necessary - at surface-post rates. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lists at loomcom.com Thu Nov 1 13:36:37 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:36:37 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> References: <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121101183637.GA11099@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 08:18:24PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 06:45 PM, geneb wrote: > > Ahh! That explains it. I'm unable to resolve where the machine stops > > and the workbench starts. :) > > Yeah, it's a bit, erm, "busy" over there. I took some lab pics at the > request of a friend yesterday...I sent them to the hecnet list, I may as > well share them here as well. Wow! That's a hell of a workshop! I'm truly jealous :) I'm pretty bummed about my current living situation. My "workshop" at the moment is a single folding table in the laundry room, because there just isn't anywhere else for it to be. Condo living, not much fun. Only one year left on the lease, then it's time to look for a bigger place, probably NOT in the Bay Area. I can't afford to buy here ($80,000 for a 20% down payment? No thanks) and rents are sky high ($2800/month and up for a house), so it's time to get out of Dodge. -Seth From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 13:39:19 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 19:39:19 +0100 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20121101193919.2119c1f6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 1 Nov 2012 08:23:23 -0600 Kevin Reynolds wrote: [VAX KA630 / KA650 PMI cable] > Are these cables standard 50 pin ribbon cables like those which would > be used to connect up scsi drives internally? Yes. Simple, standard, ordinary 50 pin ribbon / IDC cables. Don't make the cable longer then needed to connect the PCBs. Using a longer SCSI cable will get signal distortions due to reflections, most likely. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 1 14:07:09 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 19:07:09 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <20121101025648.GH29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20121101105001.E87644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 1 November 2012 18:19, geneb wrote: > ...within the next two to twenty years. Or tomorrow. She thought it was funny. I'm boned. (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 14:15:41 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:15:41 -0400 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: <5092AE1E.9050307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <509249DA.5020003@verizon.net> <5092AE1E.9050307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5092CA5D.3030501@verizon.net> On 11/01/2012 01:15 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/1/2012 4:07 AM, allison wrote: > >> >> Using a Z80 (P112 is Z180 , but the core is still z80) 8bitter >> regardless of speed >> will emulate a lot of stuff... S..L..O..W..L..Y.....! > > No, I want the P112 for 8080 and cp/m. Fig Forth, Small C, Adventure > ... . > I still need a floppy, power supply , cables and formatted media. > That I can get later. Since I have to pre-order from web site, I'll order > around the 9th. I still am waiting for a few bills to come in. > Your still getting a Z180. ;) I considered it bout I have enough Machine that do all that already. Though my favorites are my Kaypro4/84 and AmproLB+. > >> Is that what you want or are you thinking 32bit A9 ARM core at 400mhz?? > No, just a generic Risc & 150 Mhz. A quick on the web, seems to give > small one chip clones, or full sized linux systems for single board > computers. > There are no shortage of small, mid and full out ARM based systems. Many of them under 100$. Also ARM is RISC, though 150mhz and modest you are looking for maybe a A7 core. As to non linux Raspberry PI I believe they run "other". Me I find a ARM core with enough ram, flash and a microSD card to be utility system running a small linux as a convenient starting point to self compile any project. > I still want to play with classic computers, not on windows/linux > machine. > As I find out more about the older machines, it seems the way things > worked, > is you time shared on a BIG computer (360/Vax/PDP-10) in Fortran, and > punched > on paper tape for all the other (small) computers. > I tired of paper tape fast and did my dead level best to avoid 029 and cards. My idea of all of that was a PDP10 or VAX running Tops10 or VMS, I have enough of the latter operational. Long time timeshare user on big (and smaller) iron. If I need real clank and bang I have a few PDP-11s with RX02 and RL02 running RT and other OSs. Same for an PDP-8f > Right now my big hardware/software/vaporware project is 18 bit computer, > using a 2901 engine with a 400 ns clock and my own instruction set. > This will give a 1.2 us memory cycle - 600 ns access time. Micro-code is > 256 x 16, giving the feel of mid 1970's general purpose computer with > Front panel ,16 Kw core memory, Serial I/O and small hard drive > (moving head). > A bios will hide the 6850 Acia, and IDE interface. I plan to emulate > for now > then later build the hardware on 4 PCB's. ALU,Control, Front panel and > Basic > memory,EEprom, 6850. Remaining memory and IDE interface on other board. > Ben. > 2901 is not well suited to 18bit as a 4 bit slice but it can be done. Did a lot with 2900 and still have a bunch of the 2901Cs. Consider a wider microword though as it does make the encoding easier and helps with speed too. For drives I tend to go more to SD or CF as gets rid of a host of hardware, power, and noise. Moving head drives are getting to be a PITA to interface as SATA is the norm and older IDE more scarce. I keep a pile of older stuff because but still I try to build around current material even if its emulating older gear. Allison From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 14:51:54 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:51:54 -0500 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <200720884-1351736532-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1759516349-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> <50919F91.1020900@neurotica.com> <200720884-1351736532-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1759516349-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5092D2DA.4010905@gmail.com> On 10/31/2012 09:22 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > In Texas they cleverly tried to solve your issue. At the belton hamexpo > I recall there being a dog obstacle course competition in the way back My dogs are experts at being obstacles. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 15:23:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:23:39 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <768B1F9CE2104980898A4BA1F673C004@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> <768B1F9CE2104980898A4BA1F673C004@tababook> Message-ID: <5092DA4B.5010107@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> WOW, a Metcal... :oO >> Yup, SP-200. >> - life is too short to use crappy tools >> - crappy tools are a false economy > > I have a weller WTCPN...A pair, to be true. For some 20 years :oD That'a a good iron. That's the one that uses the Curie-point thermal regulation in the tip, if memory serves. Very nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 15:24:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:24:34 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> Message-ID: <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take >> some more pics. >> [cue 70s porn music] > > You should open your house for visitation and get a fee for each > visitor :o) Well, remember it's a commercial building, and I am building what will eventually be a public museum here. People won't have access to my lab or residence, though, of course. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 15:25:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:25:41 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <7746EAF3B5ED4A8F83C58FBFB6B52CFB@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> <5091D352.30803@neurotica.com> <7746EAF3B5ED4A8F83C58FBFB6B52CFB@tababook> Message-ID: <5092DAC5.9090301@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 04:54 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The whole electronics package is just a mess. > > Yep, but it is cheap and it works :o) That's the point. Every guy can > make yours, even you (haha) in USA. > > http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2012/09/fotos-da-placa-prototipo-gen7-v12-br2.html > > This was done at my home (no, the ugly guy on the photo isn't me) Nicely done! And for a moment I thought that guy was Richard Dean Anderson. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 15:27:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:27:25 -0400 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 05:07 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Close-up of soldering bench: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG > Hmmmm. I see Metcal. Are they really that much better then anything > else? That's my opinion, yes. > Currently I am thinking about purchasing an Oki MFR-2241. The Oki > is not that expensive as a Metcal, but uses the same Smart Heat > technology that Oki got from Metcal. I've not tried (or even seen) those. The "Smart Heat" stuff is half of the battle, the tip plating is the other critical part. If they don't skimp there, I'd say it'll probably do well. If you end up getting one, I'd appreciate knowing what you think of it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 15:28:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:28:55 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5092DB87.9050106@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 09:11 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/31/2012 06:45 PM, geneb wrote: >>> Ahh! That explains it. I'm unable to resolve where the machine stops >>> and the workbench starts. :) >> >> Yeah, it's a bit, erm, "busy" over there. I took some lab pics at the >> request of a friend yesterday...I sent them to the hecnet list, I may as >> well share them here as well. >> > Very nice. Strangely enough, the first thing I identified was the Atari > 800 in the background of the soldering station pic. :) Nice. ;) Yes, that's Dan Roganti's. He has a workbench in there as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 15:31:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:31:37 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, Message-ID: <5092DC29.8010803@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > Are these cables standard 50 pin ribbon cables like those which would be used > to connect up scsi drives internally? Does length matter? I suspect that maybe > the cable is bad, but I don't have a replacement (the one in place is a 3 position > cable that is quite short), and no tools to crimp a new cable of this type. I do > have a few 5 position cables, but before I start trying random things, I am > hoping to understand the cable more specifically. The cable appears to be > straight through, but the connectors might "twist" connections. There could > be some ground plane factor, right? They area ordinary ribbon cables with ordinary connectors. Straight-through, no "twists". They don't have to be kept super-short, but do keep them as short as possible. This is a memory bus, after all. I don't know if there's a max length spec (DEC probably didn't envision people putting random cables in there) but I'd try to keep the whole thing to less than 6" or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 1 15:47:33 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:47:33 -0500 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5092DFE5.7090900@vaxen.net> On 11/1/12 4:07 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:18:24 -0400 > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Close-up of soldering bench: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG > Hmmmm. I see Metcal. Are they really that much better then anything > else? Currently I am thinking about purchasing an Oki MFR-2241. The Oki > is not that expensive as a Metcal, but uses the same Smart Heat > technology that Oki got from Metcal. My Metcal is an older, cheaper model, and I absolutely love it. I traded off a nice digital Hakko for it and have never looked back. One thing I really like about the Metcal is that lightly-used tips are common and stupid cheap on ebay and other online resources. The thing I like most about it is that with a given tip, you get the same action *every* *single* *time* you make a join. Consistency just freaking rulez. :) Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 1 15:41:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:41:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac SE/30 restoration In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 31, 12 10:24:43 pm Message-ID: > > > I have a well-treated Macintosh SE/30 that I'd like to fix up. > > Problem 1) Whenever the CPU is doing something or something is being read > or written, faint warbling screeches can be heard coming from inside. The > volume control does nothing to quell this noise. Are you sure it's coming form the speaker? Desoldering the speaker, or one connection to it, will quickly determine if that;'s the case. Most of the time, such noises come from the PSU chopper transoformer, and can be silenced by replkacing the high ESR cpaactiros in the PSU. > > Problem 2) The image on the monitor is canted a few degrees clockwise -- > enough to be noticable and irritating. You need to rotat the defleciton yoke. Open th case amd then slacken the clamp on the yoke. Often the yoke sticks in place, you do not want to force it becasue you cna break the CRT. If it won't move, then take the clamp right off and open the slots the clamp fitted over with a screwdrier. That normally frees the yoke,. Refit the clamp, but loosly. If you don't mind workign on HV stuff, power up, opld the yoke my the plasticc former, and rotatie it to gt the pictutre straight. wathcout, there are hgih voltag spikes on the horixotnal deflection winding. If you are more cautious, work out roughtly waht angle to turn it by, and do so, power up, and see if it's right. When you have it in the right postion, retighten the clamp. Do not overtighten it, particualrly in warm weather 9the clamp wil lcotnract in cold weather, making it even tighter. The old 'advice' was 'Tighten until the CRT implodes, then back off 1/4 of a turn' :-)> If in doubt, leave it too loose, the worst that will then happen is that the yoke will move again and you;'ll ahev to repeat the adjustment. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:53:05 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 17:53:05 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Francois Dion wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Francois Dion wrote: >>> Or at least, as close as one can get to one: >>> >>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html >> >> Which USB and HDMI adapters/cables did you use? > > The dock has micro hdmi male, and micro usb b male. Right. > This summer I ended up making my micro hdmi to hdmi > cable, but it was hard to solder, with the shields and all and it kept > flickering. Yeah. I'm good at soldering but I'd rather not wire up a MicroHDMI by hand. What I _might_ do is to clip off the USB A female end and splice it to an ordinary USB A male pigtail clipped from an ordinary cable or keyboard/mouse to make a 1-part USB cable. > So I ordered the micro hdmi female to hdmi male adapter > from china. The rest I found in the US (my parts bin or the local > computer shop). Right. > I've posted a bunch of pictures with the proper nomenclature on all > the adapters and cables: > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop-cables-cabos.html Thanks for that. I have one rev 1.1 and one rev 2.0 Pi, so it's easier to get the power going than with a 1.0 Pi (though I have no problems doing SMT work to make that change myself). Cheers, -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 18:56:36 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:56:36 +0100 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121102005636.7e447e4f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:04:10 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > I stopped using anything else once I had used one on the bench at Apple. OKi. Seems as I am going to spend about 700,-EUR for soldering equipment... > The only problem I've had are the tips failing to heat up I consider tips as consumabels. Sure, the tips of my ERSA irons last many years. But they are still consumabels. > (and that the replacements aren't cheap). Really? I looked and the OKI tips are around 10 to 15 EUR. Thats not that much more then most tips for my current iron. (ERSA RDS80) > They work really really well for SMT. Thats the reason for the upgrade and why I want an iron + tweezer. We are on the way building a local hackerspace. We will have PCB manufactering equipment. (I simply don't have any space left in my flat to do it at home...) And given self made PCBs, SMT is the way to go. Adieu Perfboard! -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 19:10:43 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 01:10:43 +0100 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121102011043.6e0655b6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:27:25 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > Currently I am thinking about purchasing an Oki MFR-2241. The Oki > > is not that expensive as a Metcal, but uses the same Smart Heat > > technology that Oki got from Metcal. > > I've not tried (or even seen) those. http://www.okinternational.com/product_soldering/ OKI and Metcal on the same page. Even the naming scheme is similar. (MFR-2210 => MX5010, MFR-2241 => MX5041) The Metcal MX5000 stuff still runs at 13 MHz and is compatible to the older MX500 system. The OKI MFR run at 450 kHz like the Metcal SP200 and PS-800, but offer the better cartridge system like the MX-series. (The inferior tip system from the PS-800 is also available for the MFR series if you need somthing cheap.) You can fit a MFR-PS1100 / MFR-PS2200 power supply with the MFR-H6-SSC hand-piece to use Metcal SP200 SSC cartridges. You can even by this in a package as MFR-1160. Therefore a MFR-1160 should be about the same as a SP200. I see a SP200 on your bench. So, I think, an OKI MFR can't be that wrong. Any special recommendations for cartridge geometries? As a start I think I'll get a 1 mm and a 2.5 mm chisel cartridge for through hole and biger stuff. For SMT touch up perhaps a 0.4 mm conical. > The "Smart Heat" stuff is half > of the battle, the tip plating is the other critical part. I know. Thats why I prefered ERSA up to now. They offer a good tip plating. > If they don't skimp there, I'd say it'll probably do well. I hope. ;-) > If you end up getting one, > I'd appreciate knowing what you think of it. I'll let you know. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 19:10:22 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:10:22 -0200 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> > "I want to make more blood!" RMFAOTF!!! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 19:14:40 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:14:40 -0200 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic References: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> Message-ID: Thanks a lot, Liam! Someone here on the list promised a zx80 and 81 for free, but I'm waiting for him to find it on his attic :o) BTW, I'm repairing a NE-Z80 right now, the brazilian clone of the ZX-80. I'm stripping the board (very badly solded) to bare, and repopulating it fixing the board. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 4:35 PM Subject: Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic > On 30 October 2012 22:50, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >>> Are there import restrictions or somehting? I would have thoguth a >>> couple >>> of rolls of 120 could be sent by post without any problems. >> >> >> No restrictions, but EXPENSIVE AS HELL. I've been planning in getting >> a >> ZX-80, a ZX-81 (preferably in kit form) and a Spectrum (any model, but >> I'd >> prefer the +2 or +3)...But mail prices from UK to Brazil are >> outrageous... > > Happy to help. They sold in the millions here and are cheap to free. > If you can find a decent one on eBay or Gumtree, buy it & have it > shipped to me & I'll be happy to send it on - repacked if necessary - > at surface-post rates. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 19:16:36 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:16:36 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> <768B1F9CE2104980898A4BA1F673C004@tababook> <5092DA4B.5010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <480F64299BE447E0A14E39B63EB78F8A@tababook> These are good workers, and I change a tip/year, and heater/each five years! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:23 PM Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition > On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> WOW, a Metcal... :oO >>> Yup, SP-200. >>> - life is too short to use crappy tools >>> - crappy tools are a false economy >> >> I have a weller WTCPN...A pair, to be true. For some 20 years :oD > > That'a a good iron. That's the one that uses the Curie-point thermal > regulation in the tip, if memory serves. Very nice! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 19:16:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:16:59 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> How could I remember if you never told me that? ;o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:24 PM Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition > On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take >>> some more pics. >>> [cue 70s porn music] >> >> You should open your house for visitation and get a fee for each >> visitor :o) > > Well, remember it's a commercial building, and I am building what will > eventually be a public museum here. People won't have access to my lab > or residence, though, of course. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 19:28:52 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:28:52 -0400 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> Message-ID: On 1 November 2012 20:10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> "I want to make more blood!" > > > RMFAOTF!!! :D Alexandre: The hell is *THAT* an acronym for? John: So, has she met the Duke Nukem series or Grand Theft Auto series yet? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 1 19:41:22 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 17:41:22 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> Message-ID: At 10:14 PM -0200 11/1/12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Thanks a lot, Liam! Someone here on the list promised a zx80 and >81 for free, but I'm waiting for him to find it on his attic :o) If it's like my garage you may be waiting a while... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:03:57 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:03:57 -0500 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> Message-ID: <50931BFD.7010907@gmail.com> On 11/01/2012 07:28 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 1 November 2012 20:10, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >>> "I want to make more blood!" >> >> >> RMFAOTF!!! :D > > Alexandre: The hell is *THAT* an acronym for? "Randall's Mother Found an Otter Tromboning Furiously" has been my best guess so far. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 20:03:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 21:03:34 -0400 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <50931BFD.7010907@gmail.com> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> <50931BFD.7010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50931BE6.6040806@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 09:03 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> "I want to make more blood!" >>> >>> RMFAOTF!!! :D >> >> Alexandre: The hell is *THAT* an acronym for? > > "Randall's Mother Found an Otter Tromboning Furiously" has been my best > guess so far. So THAT'S what they're calling it now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 20:06:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 21:06:19 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> Message-ID: <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> Really? I thought I had; I'm sorry. My lady and I purchased a commercial building last summer. It's three floors, about 14,000 square feet, with three-phase power. We intend to build our residence upstairs, but that work hasn't begun yet. I'll be building a museum in the bottom two floors. Until the upstairs renovations are complete, we're living in a very tiny apartment just around the corner. We don't even eat there...it's basically just a bedroom and a shower. We do all of our stuff here at our building. The building used to be a retail store that sold curtains and stuff like that. There's a huge glass storefront, very nice. -Dave On 11/01/2012 08:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > How could I remember if you never told me that? ;o) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:24 PM > Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly > like new" condition > > >> On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take >>>> some more pics. >>>> [cue 70s porn music] >>> >>> You should open your house for visitation and get a fee for each >>> visitor :o) >> >> Well, remember it's a commercial building, and I am building what will >> eventually be a public museum here. People won't have access to my lab >> or residence, though, of course. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Nov 1 20:10:46 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - Message-ID: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n 1213097) at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California (www.thefilterfactory.com), phone 805.733.2180. They have 47 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, shipping for a single filter to 60091 (Illinois, USA) was $8.27. I ordered one to verify dimensions and construction - perfect match for the original part. The filters were manufactured by HEPA Corporation (still in business) but minimum order quantity from HEPA is 100 units. Filter Factory will _not_ be ordering after the current stock is gone. Get'em while you can! Jack From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:25:29 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:25:29 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2012, at 9:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Really? I thought I had; I'm sorry. My lady and I purchased a > commercial building last summer. It's three floors, about 14,000 square > feet, with three-phase power. We intend to build our residence > upstairs, but that work hasn't begun yet. I'll be building a museum in > the bottom two floors. You mentioned it on the list some months back. > Until the upstairs renovations are complete, we're living in a very > tiny apartment just around the corner. We don't even eat there...it's > basically just a bedroom and a shower. We do all of our stuff here at > our building. > > The building used to be a retail store that sold curtains and stuff > like that. There's a huge glass storefront, very nice. I'll be excited to come see it some time! - Dave From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:26:11 2012 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:26:11 -0500 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <50931BFD.7010907@gmail.com> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> <50931BFD.7010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <175E5C11-DCA6-497D-A669-7866858E4925@gmail.com> Sent from my iPad On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:03 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/01/2012 07:28 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 1 November 2012 20:10, Alexandre Souza - Listas >> wrote: >>>> "I want to make more blood!" >>> >>> >>> RMFAOTF!!! :D >> >> Alexandre: The hell is *THAT* an acronym for? > > "Randall's Mother Found an Otter Tromboning Furiously" has been my best guess so far. > rolling my fat a$$ off the floor? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 20:29:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 21:29:40 -0400 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 09:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n 1213097) > at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California (www.thefilterfactory.com), > phone 805.733.2180. They have 47 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, shipping for a > single filter to 60091 (Illinois, USA) was $8.27. I ordered one to verify > dimensions and > > construction - perfect match for the original part. The filters were > manufactured by HEPA Corporation (still in business) but minimum order quantity > from HEPA is 100 units. Filter Factory will _not_ be ordering after the current > stock is gone. > > Get'em while you can! So are you saying that HEPA Corporation will make more, but they'll only do 100 at a time? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:47:00 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 23:47:00 -0200 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> Message-ID: >> RMFAOTF!!! :D > Alexandre: The hell is *THAT* an acronym for? Rolling My Fat Ass Over The Floor ;o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:47:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 23:47:45 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <56182DA06CBE47618679267E4447992E@tababook> Wow! Congratulations, Dave! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 11:06 PM Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition > > Really? I thought I had; I'm sorry. My lady and I purchased a > commercial building last summer. It's three floors, about 14,000 square > feet, with three-phase power. We intend to build our residence > upstairs, but that work hasn't begun yet. I'll be building a museum in > the bottom two floors. > > Until the upstairs renovations are complete, we're living in a very > tiny apartment just around the corner. We don't even eat there...it's > basically just a bedroom and a shower. We do all of our stuff here at > our building. > > The building used to be a retail store that sold curtains and stuff > like that. There's a huge glass storefront, very nice. > > -Dave > > > On 11/01/2012 08:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> How could I remember if you never told me that? ;o) >> >> --- >> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:24 PM >> Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly >> like new" condition >> >> >>> On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>> Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take >>>>> some more pics. >>>>> [cue 70s porn music] >>>> >>>> You should open your house for visitation and get a fee for each >>>> visitor :o) >>> >>> Well, remember it's a commercial building, and I am building what will >>> eventually be a public museum here. People won't have access to my lab >>> or residence, though, of course. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Nov 1 21:13:06 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF86B6BAC18617-15B4-6D225@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Geneb wrote: > >Do the old license PAKs work on newer releases? I've got a few from the >5.x era... > >g. There's the license and then there's the PAK. The PAK will probably work (there are certain limits with capacity and VAX vs Alpha vs I64), but the license may or may not have transferred from the P.O. and may or may not (probably not) be valid for a newer version of VMS. DEC did not tie them to hardware as a matter of policy, and many/most PAKs don't have a version encoded in them. The PAK was a means of encouraging compliance, not a futile attempt to force compliance, and so they didn't trick it out to be as obnoxious as they could have. You should probably get a new hobbyist license from the program (they're cheap), whether you choose to use your PAKs or the hobbyist ones is up to you (but keep in mind that you still do need to renew your license every year for the hobbyist program). From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Nov 1 21:15:06 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 19:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - Message-ID: <1351822506.73455.YahooMailRC@web181305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On 11/01/2012 09:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n 1213097) > at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California (www.thefilterfactory.com), > phone 805.733.2180. They have 47 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, shipping for a > single filter to 60091 (Illinois, USA) was $8.27. I ordered one to verify > dimensions and > > construction - perfect match for the original part. The filters were > manufactured by HEPA Corporation (still in business) but minimum order quantity > from HEPA is 100 units. Filter Factory will _not_ be ordering after the current > stock is gone. > > Get'em while you can! So are you saying that HEPA Corporation will make more, but they'll only do 100 at a time? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA ************************************************** That's the way I understood it from the man at Filter Factory. If you want to buy a truckload (and, knowing you, I wouldn't be surprised if you did :>) ), you can reach HEPA at HEPA Corporation 3071 E Coronado St Anaheim CA 92806 (714)630-5700 Jack From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 1 21:32:49 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel and Northstar Message-ID: Is anyone here a member of the Yahoo Northstar_Computer group? I need a copy of Andrew Lynch's CWNS progam from the files section, and my membership is still pending. Please contact me off-list. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 21:56:36 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 02:56:36 +0000 Subject: Catweasel and Northstar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <402852678-1351824995-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-691355176-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Have you tried emailing him? He's pretty active on the vintage-computer.com forums. Of you can't find his contact info let me know and I can see if I have it somewhere too. Off list obviously. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Loewen Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 22:32:49 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Catweasel and Northstar Is anyone here a member of the Yahoo Northstar_Computer group? I need a copy of Andrew Lynch's CWNS progam from the files section, and my membership is still pending. Please contact me off-list. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 1 22:04:40 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 23:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel and Northstar In-Reply-To: <402852678-1351824995-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-691355176-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <402852678-1351824995-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-691355176-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Have you tried emailing him? He's pretty active on the > vintage-computer.com forums. Of you can't find his contact info let me > know and I can see if I have it somewhere too. Off list obviously. I did try contacting him directly. Perhaps he's affected by the storm. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 22:22:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 23:22:15 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <56182DA06CBE47618679267E4447992E@tababook> References: <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> <56182DA06CBE47618679267E4447992E@tababook> Message-ID: <50933C67.7090304@neurotica.com> Thanks! This is a good place to be. -Dave On 11/01/2012 09:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Wow! Congratulations, Dave! > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 11:06 PM > Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly > like new" condition > > >> >> Really? I thought I had; I'm sorry. My lady and I purchased a >> commercial building last summer. It's three floors, about 14,000 square >> feet, with three-phase power. We intend to build our residence >> upstairs, but that work hasn't begun yet. I'll be building a museum in >> the bottom two floors. >> >> Until the upstairs renovations are complete, we're living in a very >> tiny apartment just around the corner. We don't even eat there...it's >> basically just a bedroom and a shower. We do all of our stuff here at >> our building. >> >> The building used to be a retail store that sold curtains and stuff >> like that. There's a huge glass storefront, very nice. >> >> -Dave >> >> >> On 11/01/2012 08:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> >>> How could I remember if you never told me that? ;o) >>> >>> --- >>> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" >>> >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly >>> like new" condition >>> >>> >>>> On 11/01/2012 04:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>>> Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take >>>>>> some more pics. >>>>>> [cue 70s porn music] >>>>> >>>>> You should open your house for visitation and get a fee for each >>>>> visitor :o) >>>> >>>> Well, remember it's a commercial building, and I am building what will >>>> eventually be a public museum here. People won't have access to my lab >>>> or residence, though, of course. >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>>> New Kensington, PA >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 1 22:23:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 23:23:27 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50933CAF.9030906@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2012 09:25 PM, David Riley wrote: > I'll be excited to come see it some time! You're always welcome of course. You're not all that far away. Come on out for some hack time! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 22:35:02 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 01:35:02 -0200 Subject: Brazilian electronic magazines. Was: RepRapping. References: <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> <56182DA06CBE47618679267E4447992E@tababook> <50933C67.7090304@neurotica.co! m> Message-ID: Maybe someone is curious :o) This was teh BEST electronics magazine we had in Brazil, worth take a look, even if only the photos :o) http://www.4shared.com/folder/7kImt0o9/Revista_Nova_Eletronica.html --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 23:06:03 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 23:06:03 -0500 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <2004609591-1351781798-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8142593-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <4F21DBDE3C494C8B8B12F70637B8AB9F@tababook> Message-ID: <509346AB.9040906@gmail.com> On 11/01/2012 08:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> RMFAOTF!!! :D >> Alexandre: The hell is *THAT* an acronym for? > > Rolling My Fat Ass Over The Floor ;o) Huh. Well, I was close. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 23:15:48 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Catweasel and Northstar Message-ID: <1351829748.59682.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Im on that list, if the file is there Ill send it to you tomorrow afternoon. Which NS unit are you messing with? I had the distinct pleasure of movging my Dimension last night. ------------------------------ On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 8:04 PM PDT Mike Loewen wrote: >On Fri, 2 Nov 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > >> Have you tried emailing him? He's pretty active on the vintage-computer.com forums. Of you can't find his contact info let me know and I can see if I have it somewhere too. Off list obviously. > > I did try contacting him directly. Perhaps he's affected by the storm. > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 2 04:37:00 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 04:37:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Catweasel and Northstar In-Reply-To: References: <402852678-1351824995-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-691355176-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > >> Have you tried emailing him? He's pretty active on the >> vintage-computer.com forums. Of you can't find his contact info let me >> know and I can see if I have it somewhere too. Off list obviously. > > I did try contacting him directly. Perhaps he's affected by the storm. Given his location that is very possible. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Nov 2 06:24:11 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel and Northstar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > Is anyone here a member of the Yahoo Northstar_Computer group? I need a > copy of Andrew Lynch's CWNS progam from the files section, and my membership > is still pending. Please contact me off-list. Membership approved, got the file. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:16:32 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:16:32 -0500 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> References: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: how does one find anything on their website? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/01/2012 09:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n > 1213097) > > at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California ( > www.thefilterfactory.com), > > phone 805.733.2180. They have 47 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, > shipping for a > > single filter to 60091 (Illinois, USA) was $8.27. I ordered one to verify > > dimensions and > > > > construction - perfect match for the original part. The filters were > > manufactured by HEPA Corporation (still in business) but minimum order > quantity > > from HEPA is 100 units. Filter Factory will _not_ be ordering after the > current > > stock is gone. > > > > Get'em while you can! > > So are you saying that HEPA Corporation will make more, but they'll > only do 100 at a time? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 2 12:00:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:00:27 +0100 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:04:10 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > The only problem I've had are the tips failing to heat up > (and that the replacements aren't cheap). BTW: http://www.thermaltronics.com/ Founded by ex Metcal employees. They produce a range of soldering stations and tips compatible to the Metcal MX-500 and SP200, but a bit cheaper. I.e. the Thermaltronics should be in the same price range as the OKI MFR. (Beware, the TMT9000S is a single supply with two switched outputs. You can drive one or the other, where the OKI MFR-22xx / Metcal MX-50xx features true dual simultaneous PSUs.) So no difference when you purchase a new rig, but you may get replacement tips for your old Metcal a bit cheaper then the originals. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Nov 2 12:12:22 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1351876342.69389.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > how does one find anything on their website? You don't. Call them or email them with the specific part number - their item code is 100036 for DEC P/N 1213097. Jack > > > On 11/01/2012 09:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > > I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n > > 1213097) > > > at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California ( > > www.thefilterfactory.com), > > > phone 805.733.2180. They have 47 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, > > shipping for a > > > single filter to 60091 (Illinois, USA) was $8.27. I ordered one to verify > > > dimensions and construction - perfect match for the original part. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Nov 2 12:26:50 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:26:50 +0000 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259F4A9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jay West Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:50 PM > Of the below, the items were in Seattle, WA. The "heavy stuff" is > already gone, but the 11/05, small parts, and pep-70 are confirmed as > still available. Who is in Seattle? > On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:07 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Not sure of location yet, trying to obtain that. Will repost when >> location is available. >> PDP-11/05 >> paper tape >> RL01 >> 2 disk packs >> manuals & drawings >> RT11 manuals >> 8 inch floppy drive and floppies >> "bunch of cards" >> pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 >> box of panel light bulbs >> parts for core boards >> cpu test card Does anyone know whatever happened to the PEP-70? Both Ian King and I responded to Jay off-line (and I think Ian even said something on the list), but neither of us ever got any kind of response. So, did anyone on the list get this? Did it get Dumpster(TM)'d? Is it still available? Just curious. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 12:37:12 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:37:12 -0500 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: <1351876342.69389.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351876342.69389.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: o ok On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > > > how does one find anything on their website? > > You don't. Call them or email them with the specific part number - their > item > code is 100036 for DEC P/N 1213097. > Jack > > > > > > > On 11/01/2012 09:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > > > I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC > p/n > > > 1213097) > > > > at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California ( > > > www.thefilterfactory.com), > > > > phone 805.733.2180. They have 47 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, > > > shipping for a > > > > single filter to 60091 (Illinois, USA) was $8.27. I ordered one to > verify > > > > dimensions and construction - perfect match for the original part. > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 2 12:55:02 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 12:55:02 -0500 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> Message-ID: <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> On 11/2/2012 12:00 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 08:04:10 -0700 > Al Kossow wrote: > >> The only problem I've had are the tips failing to heat up >> (and that the replacements aren't cheap). > BTW: http://www.thermaltronics.com/ > Founded by ex Metcal employees. They produce a range of soldering > stations and tips compatible to the Metcal MX-500 and SP200, but a bit > cheaper. I.e. the Thermaltronics should be in the same price range as > the OKI MFR. (Beware, the TMT9000S is a single supply with two switched > outputs. You can drive one or the other, where the OKI MFR-22xx / > Metcal MX-50xx features true dual simultaneous PSUs.) So no difference > when you purchase a new rig, but you may get replacement tips for your > old Metcal a bit cheaper then the originals. Is there a document or link that explains why this type of station is better than a Weller-type unit (WESD-51 here)? I mean, I have no complaints with my Weller, but I am doing more SMT work as of late, and maybe I should upgrade. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 2 13:44:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 14:44:27 -0400 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> On 11/02/2012 01:55 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is there a document or link that explains why this type of station is > better than a Weller-type unit (WESD-51 here)? I don't know of any documents or links, but I've used them side-by-side, I prefer the Metcal. I still have a Weller, though (on a different bench) and I don't gnash my teeth when I use it. I notice the differences, but I will NOT say "Wellers suck". I know in this gang I'd have to publish it in a book for it to be considered legitimate information, but enough people ask me for soldering advice that I feel comfortable considering myself to be fairly knowledgeable about it. > I mean, I have no complaints with my Weller, but I am doing more SMT > work as of late, and maybe I should upgrade. In my experience, most Wellers are very good irons. Most Hakkos are very very good irons. Metcals are great irons. That said, if you're comfortable with what you're using, don't consider it broken. Different people use their tools in different ways. It's probably worth the time to try a Metcal to see if YOU notice a significant difference...if you don't, then upgrading is a waste of money, time, and effort becoming accustomed to a different tool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 14:04:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:04:24 -0200 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107! @neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3D962CD39C63407C8B16587AA5F8B9D4@tababook> > That said, if you're comfortable with what you're using, don't > consider it broken. Different people use their tools in different ways. > It's probably worth the time to try a Metcal to see if YOU notice a > significant difference...if you don't, then upgrading is a waste of > money, time, and effort becoming accustomed to a different tool. Very wise words, I'd not expect anything less from you :o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 14:19:03 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 15:19:03 -0400 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I still have a Weller, though (on a different bench) and I don't gnash > my teeth when I use it. I notice the differences, but I will NOT say > "Wellers suck". Nor would I. I've been using the same Weller since 1984 (I got it when my employer went out of business). > In my experience, most Wellers are very good irons. Most Hakkos are > very very good irons. Metcals are great irons. I used a Metcal at Lucent... it was awesome. I'm very sorry I wasn't in town when they had their "closing the Western Electric Plant" asset sale. I hear the Metcals went for $50. I love my Weller. If I saw an inexpensive Metcal, I'd jump all over it. One specific thing I loved - lots of (quickly) interchangeable SMT tips vs one or two pointy or chisel tips on my Weller. -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 2 14:23:12 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 15:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201211021923.PAA29906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > In my experience, most Wellers are very good irons. Most Hakkos are > very very good irons. Metcals are great irons. I feel lucky. When I got fed up with the $15 hardware-store quality iron I had and decided to spring for a decent iron, I let the store talk me into a Hakko, which I was dubious about because I had never heard of the name before. (It's a 936, in case anyone cares.) It's stickered at $139.99 but I think it was marked down to under $100. (Here $ means CAD.) I'm very happy with it. I don't have much to compare with except the el-cheapo iron I used to use (constant power draw, overheats or underheats depending on how much you're doing with it); compared to that, it's amazing - but, compared to that, pretty much anything that even _tries_ to do temperature regulation will be. Perhaps someday I'll have a chance to use a Metcal and compare. I have used Wellers, but far too long ago to be competent to draw a comparison. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 2 17:17:23 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:17:23 -0500 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: References: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121102221723.GG2061@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/02/2012 at 10:58AM -0700), Earl Evans wrote: > I have two RL02 drives and a single RL01, and am interested in buying at > least a couple of these filters. However, I've never changed the absolute > filters in the drives. Is this something that needs to be done in a very > low particulate environment? Also, unlike the foam prefilters which > deteriorate over time, I'm assuming that the absolute filters (being more > like an A/C filter?) would stay pretty much intact, even though they are > likely quite old NOS? In my experience, the pre-filter, which was usually some kind of black foam... disintegrated into a fine dust and deposited itself all over the absolute filter-- turning it pitch black like carbon. Of course there was other dust and junk on the absolute HEPA filter too, but I believe, in my situation, with two drives, the demise of the pre-filter was the significant contributor to the demise of the absolute filter. You don't have to change the absolute filter in a dust free environment but I wouldn't do it out in the garage or a dusty workshop or during a sand storm :-) You need to remove the front panel of the drive and then you will see a clear plastic "view port" and a lever mechanism that holds that clear cover over the air channel. You release the lever, remove the cover (which can be pretty well stuck due to the rubber gasketing) and then you can gain access to the filter which pulls straight out. It's a snug fit in the opening and will bind if you don't pull it straight out. > Thanks for helping a relative newbie :-) Good luck. Section 2.1, starting on page 22 of the PDF here, http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL122-TM-001_techAug82.pdf discusses the whole procedure. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 2 17:22:44 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:22:44 -0400 Subject: Seagate hard drive for PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509447B4.6050302@verizon.net> On 11/02/2012 02:15 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Greetings, > > I love the dual RL02 drives on my PDP-11/23+. It's great fun to hear them > spin up, and they are a neat conversation piece. However, I fear that > ongoing operation will eventually lead to their demise (as with all > things). I'd like to move to a (slightly) newer technology. > > My goal is to: > > 1. Purchase a Seagate ST-225 or ST-251 hard drive in working condition. > 2. Build a cable and interface assembly as described at > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/rqdx3.htm, and put the drive in an > external case/PSU. Avoid the ST251 they tended to fail often and way to often. The 225 is bullet proof. The RQDX3 can run up to 3 or 4 of them. > 3. Properly insert my RQDX3 (in my stock, but not in the machine) into the > PDP, and connect to the drive. NOTE: make sure the grant chain is not broken or the card can be the last on in the chain. > 4. Use the ZRQCH0 utility in XXDP (perhaps loaded from a TU58 emulator) to > format the drive as a RD31 or RD32 (depending on the Seagate model). > 5. Determine how to boot from RT-11, and perhaps TSX-Plus. Anything you bit required the MSCP boot for the RQDX3 and if the CPU is the 23+ then you have it as DUxx. > Is this doable? Will the KDF11-BA built-in bootstrapper ROM boot from a > RQDX3? Also, my RQDX3 card is assumed working, but untested. Is there any > way to test the controller board functionality without having a drive > attached? Controller without drive should be at the Default address and the Boot DU driver should see it though it may return a no media or drive not ready error for no drive. The X11/XXDP diagnostics can test it if you have them. I've done this and what you propose will definitely work is the wiring is correct and the drive jumpers are set right (Should be set for ST225 as Rd31 from memory) The only difference I've done is my drives are RD52s (quantum D540 31mb full height MFM). If the chassis is a MicroPDP-11 (ba23) then the only thing you need is cables as the RQDXn to disk break out board is there. If its BA11 Then you can use the BA123 breakout board M9058 and that allows for up to 4 drives any mix of floppy or HD and the cables are simple 50, 34 and 26 pin with IDC headers. Note that board due to sockets is thick (3 slots) and requires ground, +5V but does not have to be in the backplane though it has the connector to do that (note it does not generate interrupts or any other bus signal) so it can be in the last open slot it fits in. I use that and RQDX3 to add floppies, hard disks or both to any Qbus system. The RX33 is Teac FD55GFR though RX23 (3.5" floppy) is also possible if the firmware is late rev. The M9058 is the standard distribution board used in all BA123 based system to go from RQDX 2 or 3 to floppies and hard disks. They can be found and cheap as most have no clue what they are or how to use it outside the BA123. It's a simple board that breaks to 50pin out to the drives and also allows for drive enable and write protect lights and switches. Those light and switches are not required but easily made and fun to have. the select logic allows up to 4 hard drive drives or the the mix can be one floppy and 3-4 HD. The floppy is nominally RX50 or RX33. NOTE: if you use the M9058 then it can be put int he box with Floppies and hard disk where it gets power and connected to the main system via RQDX2 or 3 using a simple 50pin to 50 pin IDC headered cable up to 4ft long (never tried longer but may work). I have 4 systems PDP11-23+ set up this way 3 in BA11 and one BA23 (microPDP11) and a few uVAX in BA23 and BA123 . The large system (J11 based ) has RX02, RL02, RD52*2, RX33 and makes file transfer and all much easier. I nominally run RT11XM on it. Allison > Thanks for any thoughts! > > - Earl > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 2 17:30:01 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 15:30:01 -0700 Subject: Fwd: HP 524B Military Version References: <2ECC395A-A7B5-479C-BF23-CB94512D3BD8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <70A4F52A-59A4-4E6B-A5F1-99A35B4C636D@cs.ubc.ca> I have been contacted by a fellow with an FR-38D/U digital counter, I gather he would like to let it go. This is a tube-based digital electronic counter, identical to the HP-524B, but I think the particular unit at issue was actually manufactured by Northeastern Engineering. (I've never understood the relationship, but AIUI Northeastern manufactured/second-sourced some HP designs.) Here is a photo of the unit: http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r84/onegroovydude/ 62E116DF-2C75-459F-ADE4-44FA2B79B712-285-00000017B3222DC6.jpg For more info about the models, here are my web pages about the 524B and HP-520 instruments: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524B/index.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP520/index.html These things aren't computers of course, but they are some of the last pieces of tube-based digital electronic instruments, i.e. the same technology as the the 1st generation of electronic computers. Marketing spiel: You're not likely to ever own a digital tube computer, but you can own a digital tube counter. I'm just helping to see it preserved, you can contact Travis below if interested. I get questions and expressions of interest in these instruments every now-and-then due to my web pages, but I have no idea what sort of dollar/market value to assign. The location is Kansas City. They're over 100 lbs and you'd have to be really enthused to have it shipped - so hopefully someone can pick it up. If someone obtains this unit, I can supply the schematic, at least for the HP version. (I have a 524B and 524C that I have repaired.) If someone does obtain it I'd be interested to hear about it. Begin forwarded message: > From: Travis Joles > Date: 2012 October 30 6:15:59 AM PDT (CA) > To: "hilpert at cs.ubc.ca" > Subject: HP 524B Military Version > > Hi. I have this unit in the military version FR-38D/U. I'll provide > a pic. Do these have any value to collectors? Thank you. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 19:34:42 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1351902882.818.YahooMailNeo@web163005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >I used a Metcal at Lucent... it was awesome.? I'm very sorry I wasn't >in town when they had their "closing the Western Electric Plant" >asset sale.? I hear the Metcals went for $50. > >Recently, ebay prices have been pretty good.? Recent PS2 and MX-500-P11 units have fairly regularly gone for as low as $50.? Handpieces with stands also in the $50 range (or new handpiece for $70-80 from suppliers.)? I even saw a complete system with PS2, talon, handpiece, and tips go for $75; and a talon with stand go for $79.? I keep it in my search, just in case useful tips come up.? It seems that while the price of "useless" stuff like vintage computing machinery is going through the roof, prices of some very useful stuff are actually doing quite well--an example of the free market in action for a near commodity. I had used a weller working at a govenerment contractor, and for years in grad school (too many years. . .), and bought one for home when I got out--obviously no complaints.? But when I started stocking a lab from Ebay, I took a chance on a Metcal on Ebay, and have been a convert ever since. Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 19:56:46 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:56:46 -0700 Subject: Fwd: HP 524B Military Version In-Reply-To: <70A4F52A-59A4-4E6B-A5F1-99A35B4C636D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2ECC395A-A7B5-479C-BF23-CB94512D3BD8@gmail.com> <70A4F52A-59A4-4E6B-A5F1-99A35B4C636D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2012 3:36 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > > I have been contacted by a fellow with an FR-38D/U digital counter, I gather he would like to let it go. > Might be good to forward to the HP/ Agilent test equipment group. There was a discussion there about the HP version of this counter just a few days ago. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hp_agilent_equipment/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Nov 2 21:52:58 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 19:52:58 -0700 Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... Message-ID: <20121102195258.707c1e6e@asrock.bcwi.net> I recently acquired a Televideo TS-801. It's a typical Z80 CP/M system. I've have it restored to where it is trying to boot. It "says" that it is in the process of "IPLing" the system and the left drive is selected. I couldn't find any TS-801 boot images, but based on CC archives, I saw that Televideo TS-802 floppy images will work as well. I downloaded TS-802(H) images from Dave Dunfield's site - but they expect a HDD - and fail booting... Does someone have an CP/M boot image for the floppy based TS-801 or TS-802? If so, I'd appreciate a copy off list or link to same on or off list. Thanks! Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 2 22:17:38 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:17:38 -0500 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50948CD2.4000109@jbrain.com> On 11/2/2012 1:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's probably worth the time to try a Metcal to see if YOU notice a > significant difference...if you don't, then upgrading is a waste of > money, time, and effort becoming accustomed to a different tool. -Dave Well, I am hoping to attend VCF East in 2013, so maybe someone with a Metcal can come and let me try it out. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 22:14:26 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 01:14:26 -0200 Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... References: <20121102195258.707c1e6e@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <2AF4D538B1F74C4FB279C49DC520A8D3@tababook> Maybe a CTRL-C after the bootstrap loading? It will stop the autoexec.bat and - hopefully - does not try to load the HDD driver --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "classiccomp list" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 12:52 AM Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... >I recently acquired a Televideo TS-801. It's a typical Z80 CP/M system. > I've have it restored to where it is trying to boot. It "says" that it > is in the process of "IPLing" the system and the left drive is selected. > > I couldn't find any TS-801 boot images, but based on CC archives, I saw > that Televideo TS-802 floppy images will work as well. > > I downloaded TS-802(H) images from Dave Dunfield's site - but they > expect a HDD - and fail booting... > > Does someone have an CP/M boot image for the floppy based TS-801 or > TS-802? If so, I'd appreciate a copy off list or link to same on or off > list. > > Thanks! > > Lyle > -- > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From earl at retrobits.com Fri Nov 2 12:58:56 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 10:58:56 -0700 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: References: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have two RL02 drives and a single RL01, and am interested in buying at least a couple of these filters. However, I've never changed the absolute filters in the drives. Is this something that needs to be done in a very low particulate environment? Also, unlike the foam prefilters which deteriorate over time, I'm assuming that the absolute filters (being more like an A/C filter?) would stay pretty much intact, even though they are likely quite old NOS? Thanks for helping a relative newbie :-) - Earl From earl at retrobits.com Fri Nov 2 13:15:49 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:15:49 -0700 Subject: Seagate hard drive for PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: Greetings, I love the dual RL02 drives on my PDP-11/23+. It's great fun to hear them spin up, and they are a neat conversation piece. However, I fear that ongoing operation will eventually lead to their demise (as with all things). I'd like to move to a (slightly) newer technology. My goal is to: 1. Purchase a Seagate ST-225 or ST-251 hard drive in working condition. 2. Build a cable and interface assembly as described at http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/rqdx3.htm, and put the drive in an external case/PSU. 3. Properly insert my RQDX3 (in my stock, but not in the machine) into the PDP, and connect to the drive. 4. Use the ZRQCH0 utility in XXDP (perhaps loaded from a TU58 emulator) to format the drive as a RD31 or RD32 (depending on the Seagate model). 5. Determine how to boot from RT-11, and perhaps TSX-Plus. Is this doable? Will the KDF11-BA built-in bootstrapper ROM boot from a RQDX3? Also, my RQDX3 card is assumed working, but untested. Is there any way to test the controller board functionality without having a drive attached? Thanks for any thoughts! - Earl From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 01:31:47 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 04:31:47 -0200 Subject: Paging NE-Z80 owners! Paging NE-Z80 owners! References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> <50948CD2.4000109@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <2237C930DAFB4896972390429F5A2A88@tababook> Who knows? :o) Anyone on this list has the "Nova Eletronica NE-Z80" computer from Brazil? I'm finishing restoring a pair, but none of them has the original EPROM with the firmware. I've never seen one of these in person before (it is a RARE computer in Brazil) and although it is a "mostly perfect" clone of the ZX-80, the keyboard is a bit different - it is exactely the keyboard of the ZX-81 but without the "slow" function. Is it the ZX-81 ROM, or a modified one? Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 3 02:14:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 03:14:30 -0400 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50948CD2.4000109@jbrain.com> References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <20121102180027.37e9672e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> <50948CD2.4000109@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5094C456.8060602@neurotica.com> On 11/02/2012 11:17 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> It's probably worth the time to try a Metcal to see if YOU notice a >> significant difference...if you don't, then upgrading is a waste of >> money, time, and effort becoming accustomed to a different tool > > Well, I am hoping to attend VCF East in 2013, so maybe someone with a > Metcal can come and let me try it out. I will be there. I would be happy to bring my Metcal SP-200 there for you to try out. Please remind me if you can. And plan to bring some boards and components, something to solder. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 3 09:42:15 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:42:15 -0400 Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... In-Reply-To: <2AF4D538B1F74C4FB279C49DC520A8D3@tababook> References: <20121102195258.707c1e6e@asrock.bcwi.net> <2AF4D538B1F74C4FB279C49DC520A8D3@tababook> Message-ID: <50952D47.6020401@verizon.net> Just rename the batch file. Allison On 11/02/2012 11:14 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Maybe a CTRL-C after the bootstrap loading? It will stop the > autoexec.bat and - hopefully - does not try to load the HDD driver > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" > > To: "classiccomp list" > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 12:52 AM > Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... > > >> I recently acquired a Televideo TS-801. It's a typical Z80 CP/M system. >> I've have it restored to where it is trying to boot. It "says" that it >> is in the process of "IPLing" the system and the left drive is selected. >> >> I couldn't find any TS-801 boot images, but based on CC archives, I saw >> that Televideo TS-802 floppy images will work as well. >> >> I downloaded TS-802(H) images from Dave Dunfield's site - but they >> expect a HDD - and fail booting... >> >> Does someone have an CP/M boot image for the floppy based TS-801 or >> TS-802? If so, I'd appreciate a copy off list or link to same on or off >> list. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Lyle >> -- >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> http://bickleywest.com >> >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 3 09:45:51 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:45:51 -0400 Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... In-Reply-To: <20121102195258.707c1e6e@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20121102195258.707c1e6e@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50952E1F.2080300@verizon.net> You need the 801 boot image. Reason is the HDD drive is embedded in the bios which is part of the initial load image. CP/M did the BIOS or hardware abstraction from the base OS but the BIOS on most CP/M was a loaded image and very specific to the system in use. In that respect it was very unlike PCs where the BIOS was in Eprom/rom Allison On 11/02/2012 10:52 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I recently acquired a Televideo TS-801. It's a typical Z80 CP/M system. > I've have it restored to where it is trying to boot. It "says" that it > is in the process of "IPLing" the system and the left drive is selected. > > I couldn't find any TS-801 boot images, but based on CC archives, I saw > that Televideo TS-802 floppy images will work as well. > > I downloaded TS-802(H) images from Dave Dunfield's site - but they > expect a HDD - and fail booting... > > Does someone have an CP/M boot image for the floppy based TS-801 or > TS-802? If so, I'd appreciate a copy off list or link to same on or off > list. > > Thanks! > > Lyle From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 3 09:49:50 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:49:50 -0400 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: References: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50952F0E.2020800@verizon.net> On 11/02/2012 01:58 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > I have two RL02 drives and a single RL01, and am interested in buying at > least a couple of these filters. However, I've never changed the absolute > filters in the drives. Is this something that needs to be done in a very > low particulate environment? No but make sure the dirt is not left behind so that it can get past the filter. RL02 PACKS are not hermetic or even closed to the environment so its not like a modern HDA and the head flying distances are far greater. > Also, unlike the foam prefilters which > deteriorate over time, I'm assuming that the absolute filters (being more > like an A/C filter?) would stay pretty much intact, even though they are > likely quite old NOS? The prefilter is to keep chunks out and most anything will do. Allison > Thanks for helping a relative newbie :-) > > - Earl > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Nov 3 13:02:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 11:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/.M Floppy Bood Diskette needed... Message-ID: <1351965738.3227.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> a few pcs or pseudo pcs did load there Bios from disk. ------------------------------ On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 7:45 AM PDT allison wrote: >You need the 801 boot image. > >Reason is the HDD drive is embedded in the bios which is part of the >initial load image. > >CP/M did the BIOS or hardware abstraction from the base OS but the BIOS >on most CP/M >was a loaded image and very specific to the system in use. In that >respect it was very >unlike PCs where the BIOS was in Eprom/rom > > >Allison > > >On 11/02/2012 10:52 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> I recently acquired a Televideo TS-801. It's a typical Z80 CP/M system. >> I've have it restored to where it is trying to boot. It "says" that it >> is in the process of "IPLing" the system and the left drive is selected. >> >> I couldn't find any TS-801 boot images, but based on CC archives, I saw >> that Televideo TS-802 floppy images will work as well. >> >> I downloaded TS-802(H) images from Dave Dunfield's site - but they >> expect a HDD - and fail booting... >> >> Does someone have an CP/M boot image for the floppy based TS-801 or >> TS-802? If so, I'd appreciate a copy off list or link to same on or off >> list. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Lyle > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 14:30:00 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 14:30:00 -0500 Subject: Seagate hard drive for PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Earl, I have a stack of seagate drives that were spares from a field service company several years ago. They were tested and sealed in static bags before ther were surplussed out. Feel free to send a wish list. I'll try to put a list together this weekend. If we don't connect by Monday night, things will have to wait for awhile because I'm going in for surgury again on Tuesday. Thanks, Paul Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Greetings, > > I love the dual RL02 drives on my PDP-11/23+. It's great fun to hear them > spin up, and they are a neat conversation piece. However, I fear that > ongoing operation will eventually lead to their demise (as with all > things). I'd like to move to a (slightly) newer technology. > > My goal is to: > > 1. Purchase a Seagate ST-225 or ST-251 hard drive in working condition. > 2. Build a cable and interface assembly as described at > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/rqdx3.htm, and put the drive in an > external case/PSU. > 3. Properly insert my RQDX3 (in my stock, but not in the machine) into the > PDP, and connect to the drive. > 4. Use the ZRQCH0 utility in XXDP (perhaps loaded from a TU58 emulator) to > format the drive as a RD31 or RD32 (depending on the Seagate model). > 5. Determine how to boot from RT-11, and perhaps TSX-Plus. > > Is this doable? Will the KDF11-BA built-in bootstrapper ROM boot from a > RQDX3? Also, my RQDX3 card is assumed working, but untested. Is there any > way to test the controller board functionality without having a drive > attached? > > Thanks for any thoughts! > > - Earl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 14:44:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 19:44:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: from "Earl Evans" at Nov 2, 12 10:58:56 am Message-ID: > > I have two RL02 drives and a single RL01, and am interested in buying at > least a couple of these filters. However, I've never changed the absolute > filters in the drives. Is this something that needs to be done in a very > low particulate environment? Also, unlike the foam prefilters which The RL filters last longer than most because, while the system is not sealed, the 'cooling' air and the 'disk area air' are mostly kept apart. The air in the disk area is recirculated through the absoulte filter and over the outside of soem emtal subes, the cooling air flwos down the tubes. As I said, it's not sealed, which is why the absolute filter is needed in the first palce. But the design does reduce the amount of dust getting ino the filter. > deteriorate over time, I'm assuming that the absolute filters (being more > like an A/C filter?) would stay pretty much intact, even though they are > likely quite old NOS? Air conditioners are not very common over here, so I don't know what the filter for one looks like. The absoulte fitler is a (coated) paper element, much like most car air filters. In fact some older drives (RK01???) used a car air filter element, and people have suggested sutting down such an element to fit the RLs. I guess after a logn time the plastic housign will go brittle, and manybe the coting will deterioratem, but they don't turn to goo or powder like the foam filters. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 15:06:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:06:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: <20121102221723.GG2061@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Nov 2, 12 05:17:23 pm Message-ID: > You don't have to change the absolute filter in a dust free environment > but I wouldn't do it out in the garage or a dusty workshop or during a > sand storm :-) When you change the filter, there is nothhing critical that's exposd to 'normal' air that is not also epxosed ewhen you change the disk pack. So if you are happy changing disk packs in your machine room, then it shoud lebn OK to change the filter there too. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 3 15:26:10 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 15:26:10 -0500 Subject: Terak fonts and images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201211032045.qA3Kjq6h046247@billy.ezwind.net> I was recently motivated to write a few tools to convert Terak fonts and images to contemporary formats. I've added more than a dozen original Terak bitmap images, an animation, plus 26 Terak bitmap fonts converted to Windows. http://www.threedee.com/jcm/terak/ - John From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 15:53:05 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Terminal trouble Message-ID: <8CF881C5B123FBA-BD0-8315@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> I have a Wyse WY-150 that I use as a console for several machines, and it has an odd and irritating behavior on some machines. For SGIs and DECs the text gets messed up. O300 will get garbled, but my suspicion there is that the terminal doesn't really handle 38,400bps right. On all SGIs and DECs there are spacing issues, though - Example: in SGI startup diags and PROM whether I'm in 80 or 132-column mode there will be one letter on the far right and then it wraps around. I'm in VT220 mode, and it does it in both 7-bit and 8-bit. I didn't notice this on my old Altos III-branded Wyse. Anyone fixed this? From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 15:56:58 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IRIX remote display Message-ID: <8CF881CE5F151B1-BD0-833B@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> What non-IRIX X-servers have people been able to get to work with IRIX? I'm not talking about the DGL problems (where older IRIS-GL programs don't work right with non-IRIX X-servers excluding the IRISVISION because of the absence of Distributed GL), but I'm getting artifacts (Mac OS X 10.4 X11 [incomplete menus], Solaris 10 [boxes]) or, more annoyingly, random X resets (Linux and other X.org derived stuff). This is recent IRIX on the client (6.5.22 and .30). From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 15:58:30 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multix, SPARCstations, Macs for free. Message-ID: <8CF881D1CF3AF4D-BD0-834D@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> For free, Multia VX42 (233MHz 0/0) and SPARCstation-2 and IPC 64/0. Pick up in Renton, WA or near environs. The Multia is in cosmetically good shape but the battery died with the OVMS firmware in place - for those unfamiliar with this machine that means to make it work you'll have to replace the battery and do a failsafe load. Also have the Performa version of the Power Macintosh 6100/60 and a IIci. IIci is loaded with memory From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 16:02:23 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 17:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS/6000 B50 memory Message-ID: <8CF881DA7B16DF6-BD0-837B@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> I have a RS/6000 B50 (rackmount version of the 43p/150). I know it takes PC100 168-pin ECC Registered DIMMS, as I have one 128MB stick in there now from the parts bin, but that's my only one. I'm trying to get some more memory to make it useful, but local suppliers only have 512 and 1GB sticks, and per IBM 4x256 is the maximum supported memory. Does anyone either have 256MB DIMMS to sell or know if the machine will use larger capacity DIMMS? From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 16:20:10 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 17:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: welder conversion for PSUs Message-ID: <8CF882023BFC20B-BD0-844A@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> I have a Fuji PEX391-30 850W PSU that works with the Sun-4/260, 280, 360, 380 that has been offered several times and no one seems to want. Given the warnings of "capable of welding" on higher-output PSUs, has anyone actually converted one to be a spot welder? I don't think it will do arc. From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Nov 3 17:31:21 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 22:31:21 +0000 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> Message-ID: <50959B39.3020508@mac.com> On 02/11/2012 00:14, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Thanks a lot, Liam! Someone here on the list promised a zx80 and 81 > for free, but I'm waiting for him to find it on his attic :o) Alexandre, i havnt forgot that i said i can send you a spectrum... Now I have finally got to my old spectrums at the back of the garage , i have found a suitable 48K+ , just have to make sure it is in working condition as dont want to waste our time on a non worker.. Roger From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Nov 3 18:27:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic Message-ID: <1351985225.23413.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Id take the non worker if he doesnt want it. ------------------------------ On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 3:31 PM PDT Roger Pugh wrote: >On 02/11/2012 00:14, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> Thanks a lot, Liam! Someone here on the list promised a zx80 and 81 for free, but I'm waiting for him to find it on his attic :o) > > >Alexandre, i havnt forgot that i said i can send you a spectrum... Now I have finally got to my old spectrums at the back of the garage , i have found a suitable 48K+ , just have to make sure it is in working condition as dont want to waste our time on a non worker.. > >Roger From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 3 19:09:38 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 18:09:38 -0600 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <8CF881CE5F151B1-BD0-833B@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF881CE5F151B1-BD0-833B@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <8CF881CE5F151B1-BD0-833B at webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com>, Scott Quinn writes: > What non-IRIX X-servers have people been able to get to work with IRIX? Do you mean the client is running on IRIX and the server is on another machine? I don't see any reason why any X client on one machine wouldn't display properly on another machine, so long as the X client wasn't assuming the presence of extensions and was properly respecting the Visual of the target display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 20:06:09 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 21:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IRIX remote display Message-ID: <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Richard writes: >Do you mean the client is running on IRIX and the server is on anothermachine? Yes >I don't see any >reason why any X client on one machine wouldn'tdisplay properly on another machine, so long as >the X client wasn'tassuming the presence of extensions and was properly respecting theVisual >of the target display. I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc. doing remote displays to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX -> IRIX, but mix up IRIX and others and I have had trouble. Linux is probably the worst - X.org server. I'll log in just fine, be working fine, no artifacts, then boom X reset and I'm back at the XDM prompt. This works with different versions of Linux (mostly Debian), different graphics in the X-server machine (ATi (shudder) and nVidia), different net cables, different switches, different SGI boxes. Mac System 10.4 is missing parts - the first thing I noticed after login was that the toolchest was missing the text on about half of the selections. Going back and forth over it will cause some more to show up for a while. Solaris 10/ Xsun (FFB) had red rectangular artifacts. Only tried that one once. No one else has a problem with IRIX clients on other X-servers? From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 3 22:01:31 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 21:01:31 -0600 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76 at webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com>, Scott Quinn writes: > I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, HP-UX, > AIX, etc. doing remote displays > to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX -> > IRIX, but mix up IRIX > and others and I have had trouble. What clients are you running? Can you reproduce it by running something really simply like xdpyinfo or xeyes? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 3 23:14:16 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 23:14:16 -0500 Subject: Seagate hard drive for PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5095EB98.3090901@compsys.to> >Earl Evans wrote: >Greetings, > >I love the dual RL02 drives on my PDP-11/23+. It's great fun to hear them >spin up, and they are a neat conversation piece. However, I fear that >ongoing operation will eventually lead to their demise (as with all >things). I'd like to move to a (slightly) newer technology. > >My goal is to: > >1. Purchase a Seagate ST-225 or ST-251 hard drive in working condition. >2. Build a cable and interface assembly as described at >http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/rqdx3.htm, and put the drive in an >external case/PSU. >3. Properly insert my RQDX3 (in my stock, but not in the machine) into the >PDP, and connect to the drive. >4. Use the ZRQCH0 utility in XXDP (perhaps loaded from a TU58 emulator) to >format the drive as a RD31 or RD32 (depending on the Seagate model). >5. Determine how to boot from RT-11, and perhaps TSX-Plus. > > Booting from RT-11 and TSX-Plus is easy if you have a distribution of the files on the RD32. If you also have an RX50 floppy drive, you can copy the files to the RX50 media and then transfer to the RD52. Ask if you don't know how. >Is this doable? Will the KDF11-BA built-in bootstrapper ROM boot from a > > What is the version number of the EPROMs? Some of the most recent versions have the code to boot MSCP drives directly. Otherwise, if you have other types of drives such as an RL02 or TU58, you can boot these first. As a last resort, you can enter the boot code by hand for RD52 (MSCP) drives. >RQDX3? Also, my RQDX3 card is assumed working, but untested. Is there any >way to test the controller board functionality without having a drive >attached? > > An RX50 will usually work. Perhaps test with that first. >Thanks for any thoughts! > Any other questions? Please let us know how successful you are. As usual, I am curious what you will use the PDP-11/23+ for? Surely it will be for more than to just hear the fans running. Do you have any specific software to run? Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 3 22:49:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: References: <8CF881CE5F151B1-BD0-833B@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <201211040349.XAA05011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> What non-IRIX X-servers have people been able to get to work with >> IRIX? I can't speak directly to this; it's been at elast a decade since I touched IRIX. But... > I don't see any reason why any X client on one machine wouldn't > display properly on another machine, so long as the X client wasn't > assuming the presence of extensions and was properly respecting the > Visual of the target display. ...I'm afraid your "so long as" is rather optimistic, at least if you think it's true of "modern" (whatever _that_ means) clients. When I was working with Android a year or two ago I saw a simulator which displayed with red and blue swapped - it was blindly assuming it knew what the TrueColor masks were! (I'm not sure I ever knew what it did if pointed at a display with no TrueColor visual; I didn't have one handy - I had 8bpp hardware handy, but the server presented a 3/3/2 TrueColor visual. I forget what it did when pointed at that display.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Nov 3 23:45:07 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 00:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IRIX remote display Message-ID: <8CF885E4C7926E8-128C-934F@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Richard writes: > Scott Quinn writes: > >> I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, HP-UX, >> AIX, etc. doing remote displays >> to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX -> >> IRIX, but mix up IRIX >> and others and I have had trouble. > >What clients are you running? > >Can you reproduce it by running something really simply like xdpyinfo >or xeyes? >-- Pretty much basic IRIX stuff - fm, nedit, winterm. I fire up the X server with "X --query {host}" From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 01:24:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 04:24:04 -0200 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic References: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> <50959B39.3020508@mac.com> Message-ID: <784BDC553D304F8BAD6658C83240F571@tababook> Thanks a lot! I'm restoring a ZX-80 brazilian clone (NE-Z80) today, photos later :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Pugh" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:31 PM Subject: Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic > On 02/11/2012 00:14, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> Thanks a lot, Liam! Someone here on the list promised a zx80 and 81 >> for free, but I'm waiting for him to find it on his attic :o) > > > Alexandre, i havnt forgot that i said i can send you a spectrum... Now I > have finally got to my old spectrums at the back of the garage , i have > found a suitable 48K+ , just have to make sure it is in working condition > as dont want to waste our time on a non worker.. > > Roger From hollobon at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 13:16:41 2012 From: hollobon at gmail.com (Pete Hollobon) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 18:16:41 +0000 Subject: SCSI cables Message-ID: I have a bunch of old SCSI cables, free for pickup from London or I can post for cost of postage. 5x HD50 male - CN 50 male, around 1m length 1x HD68 male - CN 50 male, ~1m 1x HD50 male - HD 50 male, ~1m 1x DD68 male - DD 68 male, ~50cm Cheers, Pete. From earl at retrobits.com Sat Nov 3 15:52:11 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 13:52:11 -0700 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > As I said, it's not sealed, which is why the absolute filter is needed in > the first palce. But the design does reduce the amount of dust getting > ino the filter. > > Is it something that could be inspected, and changed only if required? Guess I'm wondering if the act of inspecting it is going to let in dust, thus spoiling the whole point of it. - Earl From david at hheng.plus.com Sat Nov 3 15:54:18 2012 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:54:18 -0000 Subject: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - References: <1351818646.22450.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50932204.1060909@neurotica.com> <50952F0E.2020800@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000701cdba05$650ce880$0b03a8c0@HHE8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "allison" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 2:49 PM Subject: Re: New absolute filters for DEC RL01/2 drives - > On 11/02/2012 01:58 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> I have two RL02 drives and a single RL01, and am interested in buying at >> least a couple of these filters. However, I've never changed the >> absolute >> filters in the drives. Is this something that needs to be done in a very >> low particulate environment? > > No but make sure the dirt is not left behind so that it can get past the > filter. > > RL02 PACKS are not hermetic or even closed to the environment so its not > like a modern HDA and the head flying distances are far greater. > > >> Also, unlike the foam prefilters which >> deteriorate over time, I'm assuming that the absolute filters (being more >> like an A/C filter?) would stay pretty much intact, even though they are >> likely quite old NOS? > > The prefilter is to keep chunks out and most anything will do. Or if you use a " better" filter, it may make the absolute last longer. I use a car air filter as a prefilter on my RK05's ,it has a large surface area and the air flow seems ok. Not run them long enough to know yet if it does help though. Dave > > Allison > >> Thanks for helping a relative newbie :-) >> >> - Earl >> > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5371 - Release Date: 11/03/12 > From corey at electricware.com Sun Nov 4 01:45:21 2012 From: corey at electricware.com (Corey Anderson) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 23:45:21 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2/500 needs a new home Message-ID: <2C4C4FE9-D40F-40F5-8E3B-84CD213D776C@electricware.com> I have an AT&T 3B2/500 that needs a new home. I've had it since it was pulled from service about 13 years ago. It's in great cosmetic shape and would make a great addition to the right person's collection. I don't know how much memory it has or the size of the hard drive, and I haven't personally fired it up. If interested, please drop me a note, otherwise it's going to get recycled. I live in the Portland, Oregon area and would prefer to have someone pick it up and I'm not really interested in shipping it. Thanks, Corey. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 4 04:45:00 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:45:00 +0000 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5096472C.2090602@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/12 19:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I love my Weller. If I saw an inexpensive Metcal, I'd jump all over it. > > One specific thing I loved - lots of (quickly) interchangeable SMT tips > vs one or two pointy or chisel tips on my Weller. There are a few things I like about my MFR-1100 - * Hot pluggable (and easily interchangeable) tips. A 20-minute wait with an Antex becomes a power-off-swap-power-on cycle with the Metcal. Very handy when you're building a few boards. * "Auto set-back" as standard. Put the iron back in the stand and the temperature is ramped down. Very useful with lead-free solder - you still need e.g. a Multicore TTC-LF to remove the oxide layer, but you don't have to use it anywhere near as much. I notice Pace charge extra for this feature... (no comment!) * Powers off if the iron has been left in the stand for more than an hour. This has saved my bacon a few times after I forgot to switch off the iron (!) The only real problem I've had is when tinning PVC insulated wire - the SmartHeat feature ramps up the power, tins the copper perfectly... and melts the insulation. The trick is to tin from the very end of the wire and use a heat shunt or a set of "Helping Hands" to keep the insulation cool.... then cover the whole mess with heatshrink sleeving :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 4 04:55:30 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:55:30 +0000 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <20121102011043.6e0655b6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> <20121102011043.6e0655b6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> Message-ID: <509649A2.9040707@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/12 00:10, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Any special recommendations for cartridge geometries? > As a start I think I'll get a 1 mm and a 2.5 mm chisel cartridge for > through hole and biger stuff. For SMT touch up perhaps a 0.4 mm conical. Here's what I have -- SFP-CH50 - 5mm chisel. Used for power connector and heatsink tabs. SFP-CH25 - 2.5mm chisel. Standard tip for through-hole (I also have a 2mm chisel, the SFP-CH20, which I use for 0805 and 0603 SMDs) SFP-DRH35 - 3.5mm drag-hoof / half-round (what PACE call a MiniWave tip). Used for soldering SMD ICs, especially QFPs using "drag soldering" techniques. I also have the 0.4mm Conical (CN04) and Long Reach Conical (CNL04) but almost never use them - soldering single SMD pins with them is, quite honestly, an exercise in masochism and time-wasting. What they *are* good for is repairing thin PCB tracks! They have just enough thermal capacity to melt the solder at the tip of a piece of 40AWG wirewrap wire without melting the other end too. A 1mm chisel tip would probably work just as well. As far as tip plating goes, my "standard" lead free solder eats Antex tips for dinner - and that's the standard 505-flux Multicore stuff. Swapped to Metcal, haven't had to change a tip out since. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 4 08:27:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 09:27:10 -0500 Subject: OT: welder conversion for PSUs In-Reply-To: <8CF882023BFC20B-BD0-844A@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF882023BFC20B-BD0-844A@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4249DA9C-9AD6-4DB6-8A17-875849EC158F@neurotica.com> Whoa, I didn't see any offers of that PSU. Are you still willing to re-home it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Nov 3, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > I have a Fuji PEX391-30 850W PSU that works with the Sun-4/260, 280, 360, 380 that has been offered > several times and no one seems to want. Given the warnings of "capable of welding" on higher-output PSUs, > has anyone actually converted one to be a spot welder? I don't think it will do arc. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 09:10:32 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 09:10:32 -0600 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <8CF885E4C7926E8-128C-934F@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF885E4C7926E8-128C-934F@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <50968568.9000606@gmail.com> On 11/03/2012 11:45 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Richard writes: >> Scott Quinn writes: >> >>> I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, HP-UX, >>> AIX, etc. doing remote displays >>> to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX -> >>> IRIX, but mix up IRIX >>> and others and I have had trouble. >> >> What clients are you running? >> >> Can you reproduce it by running something really simply like xdpyinfo >> or xeyes? >> -- > > Pretty much basic IRIX stuff - fm, nedit, winterm. I fire up the X server with "X --query {host}" Can you try Xorg -verbose and see if it logs anything obvious? As the results are so variable with different servers, it almost sounds like client requests aren't even reaching the server rather than the server not understanding them (I assume you've verified that the underlying network is solid?) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 4 11:59:23 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:59:23 -0700 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <8CF885E4C7926E8-128C-934F@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF885E4C7926E8-128C-934F@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <8CF885E4C7926E8-128C-934F at webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, Scott Quinn writes: > > Richard writes: > > Scott Quinn writes: > > > >> I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, > HP-UX, > >> AIX, etc. doing remote displays > >> to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX > -> > >> IRIX, but mix up IRIX > >> and others and I have had trouble. > > > >What clients are you running? > > > >-- > > Pretty much basic IRIX stuff - fm, nedit, winterm. I fire up the X server > with "X --query {host}" > I repeat: > >Can you reproduce it by running something really simply like xdpyinfo > >or xeyes? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 13:11:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: welder conversion for PSUs Message-ID: <1352056279.7587.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I dont know about spot welders, but a resistance soldering unit can be made from a 12vdc transformer and carbon or graphite rods, cant remember, but older c and d cells used to use them. I have an old magazine article on how to do it. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 4 13:13:52 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 11:13:52 -0800 Subject: Televideo TS-8xx firmware dumps Message-ID: <5096BE70.9060907@bitsavers.org> Has anyone dumped the firmware from the TS-801/802/803/806 ? Images for TS-806 Turbodos is up now on http://bitsavers.org/bits/Televideo now, but I couldn't locate any firmware dumps for the machines. From saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Nov 4 13:30:04 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 14:30:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Multia, SPARCstations, Macs for free. (WAS Re: Multix, SPARCstations, Macs for free.) Message-ID: <8CF88D9EC805D0B-128C-B059@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> These are probably all claimed. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Nov 4 14:03:53 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 21:03:53 +0100 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <509649A2.9040707@philpem.me.uk> References: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> <20121102011043.6e0655b6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! -kl.de> <509649A2.9040707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20121104210353.fe7f2fed14ea5b1aeee2b0bd@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:55:30 +0000 Philip Pemberton wrote: > SFP-CH50 - 5mm chisel. Used for power connector and heatsink tabs. > SFP-CH25 - 2.5mm chisel. Standard tip for through-hole (I also have a > 2mm chisel, the SFP-CH20, which I use for 0805 and 0603 SMDs) > SFP-DRH35 - 3.5mm drag-hoof / half-round (what PACE call a MiniWave > tip). Used for soldering SMD ICs, especially QFPs using "drag soldering" > techniques. > > I also have the 0.4mm Conical (CN04) and Long Reach Conical (CNL04) Thanks for the hints. I went with SFP-CH25, SFP-CH10 and SFP-CN04. The two chisels are similar to the tips that I already use with my ERSA. As you wrote: Soldering a QFP pin by pin with a SFP-CN04 is impractical. But if you have to solder a wire to a single QFP pin or similar... I thought about a SFP-DRH35 and a long reach conical. The long reach can be nice when soldering smal connectors like 8 pin MiniDIN... Maybe I'll get those later. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From corey at electricware.com Sun Nov 4 10:29:55 2012 From: corey at electricware.com (Corey Anderson) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 08:29:55 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B2/500 needs a new home (home found!) Message-ID: Thanks to all who replied. -Corey. From joerg.sigle at jsigle.com Sun Nov 4 14:26:29 2012 From: joerg.sigle at jsigle.com (Joerg M. Sigle) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 21:26:29 +0100 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5096CF75.6070907@jsigle.com> Hi Scott, I have often used IRIX 6.5 clients on Linux/nvidia X11 servers (and probably the other way round). One special thing is accelerated 3D with OpenGL vs. IrisGL: Newer SGI applications (=clients) use OpenGL, these have worked without a problem. But older SGI applications use IrisGL, the predecessor of OpenGL. When I tried it last a few years ago, these would only say: "server does not support IrisGL" or the like. There's another issue related to nfs networking between Irix and Linux (needs -o proto=tcp or proto=udp or similar, I always forget it and have to look it up...). Without the option, only minimal transfers will work, whereas even a longer directory listing or - certainly - a file transfer beyond a few KB would cause the connection to stall. But I have no indication that anything similar would apply to X11 as well. Kind regards, Joerg On 11/04/12 19:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >>>> I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, HP-UX, >>>> AIX, etc. doing remote displays >>>> to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX -> >>>> IRIX, but mix up IRIX >>>> and others and I have had trouble. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. med. J?rg M. Sigle +41-76-276-8694 http://www.ql-recorder.com +41-32-51-22-944 http://www.jsigle.com Have a lovely day... +49-176-964-35413 From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:21:08 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 15:21:08 -0600 Subject: AT&T 3B2/500 needs a new home In-Reply-To: <2C4C4FE9-D40F-40F5-8E3B-84CD213D776C@electricware.com> References: <2C4C4FE9-D40F-40F5-8E3B-84CD213D776C@electricware.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Corey Anderson wrote: > > I have an AT&T 3B2/500 that needs a new home. I've had it since it was pulled from service > about 13 years ago. It's in great cosmetic shape and would make a great addition > to the right person's collection. I don't know how much memory it has or the size of the hard drive, > and I haven't personally fired it up. > > If interested, please drop me a note, otherwise it's going to get recycled. > > I live in the Portland, Oregon area and would prefer to have someone pick it > up and I'm not really interested in shipping it. Hoping someone local does grab it. Never like to see a 3B* scrapped. If you do change your mind re: shipping, I'd be interested in having it sent out (near Chicago.) -- jht From rrr_lopes at yahoo.com.br Sun Nov 4 15:44:42 2012 From: rrr_lopes at yahoo.com.br (ricardo lopes) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 13:44:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paging NE-Z80 owners! Paging NE-Z80 owners! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1352065482.29906.YahooMailNeo@web140403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Alexandre! I did not had a NE-Z80 but an early model TK-82C. It had a SLOW function at the keyboard but it lacks the circuitry to proper respond to it.I can say it used a copy of the ZX-81 EPROM. When later I built a SLOW pig board circuit it worked as expected on original ZX-81. The TK-82C and NE-Z80 circuit was identical to ZX-80. And behave like the ZX-80 if you adapt it's EPROM to those. What Microdigital (TK-82) and Prologica (NE-Z80) did on those time was use standard parts. Copying the ZX-80 circuit to avoid the custom chip used in ZX-81. So , Yes, you can use the ZX-81 ROM image in a NE-Z80 as it had the same and exactly content. The ZX clones started to differ from the original when they started producing TK-85, CP-200 and others. Some licensed by Sinclair, I Believe. Ricardo ________________________________ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 04:31:47 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ??? Subject: Paging NE-Z80 owners! Paging NE-Z80 owners! Message-ID: <2237C930DAFB4896972390429F5A2A88 at tababook> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; ??? reply-type=response ? ? Who knows? :o) ? ? Anyone on this list has the "Nova Eletronica NE-Z80" computer from Brazil? ? ? I'm finishing restoring a pair, but none of them has the original EPROM with the firmware. I've never seen one of these in person before (it is a RARE computer in Brazil) and although it is a "mostly perfect" clone of the ZX-80, the keyboard is a bit different - it is exactely the keyboard of the ZX-81 but without the "slow" function. Is it the ZX-81 ROM, or a modified one? ? ? Thanks ? ? Alexandre Souza From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 16:03:31 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:03:31 -0600 Subject: Brazilian electronic magazines. Was: RepRapping. In-Reply-To: References: <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> <56182DA06CBE47618679267E4447992E@tababook> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Maybe someone is curious :o) This was teh BEST electronics magazine we > had in Brazil, worth take a look, even if only the photos :o) > http://www.4shared.com/folder/7kImt0o9/Revista_Nova_Eletronica.html I'd like to keep a local archive of these PDFs but the hosting site wants paid registration for a zippped download of all 100-some files. Has anyone grabbed them all already that would be willing to dump them on my FTP? -j From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 4 16:10:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 17:10:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <5096CF75.6070907@jsigle.com> References: <5096CF75.6070907@jsigle.com> Message-ID: <201211042210.RAA09312@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There's another issue related to nfs networking between Irix and > Linux (needs -o proto=tcp or proto=udp or similar, I always forget it > and have to look it up...). Without the option, only minimal > transfers will work, whereas even a longer directory listing or - > certainly - a file transfer beyond a few KB would cause the > connection to stall. Probably -o proto=tcp, or rsize=1024,wsize=1024. I've seen this often enough, and it usually (always, I think, in my experience) means that the UDP packets involved get fragmented and, for whatever reason, at least one of the resulting back-to-back fragments consistently gets dropped. Using TCP instead lets TCP deal with that issue; using rsize=1024,wsize=1024 means that no single request carries enough data to get fragmented in the first place. The reason for the drop varies. I once saw it occurring because the packets were generated at 100Mb, the receiving host was 10Mb, and the dual-speed element in the switch network between them didn't buffer enough. I've also seen it occurring when the receiving Ethernet simply can't handle back-to-back packets. There was even one memorable case where it would strike onjly sometimes; it turned out that the receiving host couldn't handle sufficiently small packets. The sending host padded according to the spec but the receiving host needed slightly more padding than that. (Non-fragmented packets had enough headers to always push them past the limit.) It occurs to me that using a network layer that supports jumbograms end-to-end would probably work, too, but that's unlikely for most of the machines likely to be discussed here. > But I have no indication that anything similar would apply to X11 as > well. It probably wouldn't. Inter-host X is always done over TCP (well, almost always; I've seen it done over DECnet, and in theory it can be done over any bidirectional flow-controlled reliable-delivery protocol, but these days that pretty much means TCP). A few applications might have performance issues without TCP_NODELAY, but they are rare and the issues are performance, not correctness. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 18:46:53 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 22:46:53 -0200 Subject: Brazilian electronic magazines. Was: RepRapping. References: <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> <30092189D146411E86510A2D9F9BC592@tababook> <5092DA82.6090500@neurotica.com> <6D8A00A4B0DB443EB0661F3E2EB9A57B@tababook> <50931C8B.2080102@neurotica.com> <56182DA06CBE47618679267E4447992E@tababook> Message-ID: <39550CB3086D4BAAB62D48C5688D10B3@tababook> Send me your FTP data and I can upload it there. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 8:03 PM Subject: Re: Brazilian electronic magazines. Was: RepRapping. > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >> >> Maybe someone is curious :o) This was teh BEST electronics magazine we >> had in Brazil, worth take a look, even if only the photos :o) >> http://www.4shared.com/folder/7kImt0o9/Revista_Nova_Eletronica.html > > I'd like to keep a local archive of these PDFs but the hosting site > wants paid registration for a zippped download of all 100-some files. > Has anyone grabbed them all already that would be willing to dump them > on my FTP? > > -j From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 18:48:58 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 22:48:58 -0200 Subject: Paging NE-Z80 owners! Paging NE-Z80 owners! References: <1352065482.29906.YahooMailNeo@web140403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D97EA393CF04495B62E2759F88112C4@tababook> Thanks a lot, Ricardo! I'll burn a ZX-81 ROM here and test :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "ricardo lopes" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 7:44 PM Subject: Paging NE-Z80 owners! Paging NE-Z80 owners! Hi Alexandre! I did not had a NE-Z80 but an early model TK-82C. It had a SLOW function at the keyboard but it lacks the circuitry to proper respond to it.I can say it used a copy of the ZX-81 EPROM. When later I built a SLOW pig board circuit it worked as expected on original ZX-81. The TK-82C and NE-Z80 circuit was identical to ZX-80. And behave like the ZX-80 if you adapt it's EPROM to those. What Microdigital (TK-82) and Prologica (NE-Z80) did on those time was use standard parts. Copying the ZX-80 circuit to avoid the custom chip used in ZX-81. So , Yes, you can use the ZX-81 ROM image in a NE-Z80 as it had the same and exactly content. The ZX clones started to differ from the original when they started producing TK-85, CP-200 and others. Some licensed by Sinclair, I Believe. Ricardo ________________________________ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 04:31:47 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Paging NE-Z80 owners! Paging NE-Z80 owners! Message-ID: <2237C930DAFB4896972390429F5A2A88 at tababook> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Who knows? :o) Anyone on this list has the "Nova Eletronica NE-Z80" computer from Brazil? I'm finishing restoring a pair, but none of them has the original EPROM with the firmware. I've never seen one of these in person before (it is a RARE computer in Brazil) and although it is a "mostly perfect" clone of the ZX-80, the keyboard is a bit different - it is exactely the keyboard of the ZX-81 but without the "slow" function. Is it the ZX-81 ROM, or a modified one? Thanks Alexandre Souza From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 4 20:04:24 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 20:04:24 -0600 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5096472C.2090602@philpem.me.uk> References: <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50928F6A.2070307@bitsavers.org> <509408F6.1020809@jbrain.com> <5094148B.2040107@neurotica.com> <5096472C.2090602@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <50971EA8.7090609@jbrain.com> On 11/4/2012 4:45 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > * Powers off if the iron has been left in the stand for more than an > hour. This has saved my bacon a few times after I forgot to switch off > the iron (!) Not to dismiss the other points or pick fights, but at least the Weller WESD51 has auto-shutoff as well. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Nov 4 20:19:59 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 21:19:59 -0500 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <509649A2.9040707@philpem.me.uk> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> <20121102011043.6e0655b6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! ! -kl.de> <509649A2.9040707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2012, at 5:55 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 02/11/12 00:10, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Any special recommendations for cartridge geometries? >> As a start I think I'll get a 1 mm and a 2.5 mm chisel cartridge for >> through hole and biger stuff. For SMT touch up perhaps a 0.4 mm conical. > > Here's what I have -- > > SFP-CH50 - 5mm chisel. Used for power connector and heatsink tabs. > SFP-CH25 - 2.5mm chisel. Standard tip for through-hole (I also have a > 2mm chisel, the SFP-CH20, which I use for 0805 and 0603 SMDs) > SFP-DRH35 - 3.5mm drag-hoof / half-round (what PACE call a MiniWave > tip). Used for soldering SMD ICs, especially QFPs using "drag soldering" > techniques. > > I also have the 0.4mm Conical (CN04) and Long Reach Conical (CNL04) but > almost never use them - soldering single SMD pins with them is, quite > honestly, an exercise in masochism and time-wasting. What they *are* > good for is repairing thin PCB tracks! They have just enough thermal > capacity to melt the solder at the tip of a piece of 40AWG wirewrap wire > without melting the other end too. A 1mm chisel tip would probably work > just as well. > > As far as tip plating goes, my "standard" lead free solder eats Antex > tips for dinner - and that's the standard 505-flux Multicore stuff. > Swapped to Metcal, haven't had to change a tip out since. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ I have a SP200. What cartridges do you suggest for through-hole and SMT soldering? I think the cartridges you mention above must be for a more expensive Metcal station. From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Nov 4 20:23:09 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 21:23:09 -0500 Subject: Apple IIc? Message-ID: <66607F97-4BBB-4F1A-A2E3-9718080F57DC@xlisper.com> I've just ordered the new Apple II book and I'd like to find a machine I can use with it. I know I can just use an emulator but it would be more fun to have actual hardware. Does anyone have an Apple IIc in good condition that they're interested in selling? From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 21:10:54 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:10:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> <20121102011043.6e0655b6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh! ! ! -kl.de> <509649A2.9040707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1352085054.72088.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: David Betz > >I have a SP200. What cartridges do you suggest for through-hole and SMT soldering? I think the cartridges you mention above must be for a more expensive Metcal station. > > > > I use a 600 deg F small chisel tip for almost all through hole and smt, and a larger 600F chisel for large through-hole parts.? For drag soldering long expanses of pins, like a large QFP, the argument could be made for using a hoof or large chisel, or something else capable of holding more solder, but I just refill the tip, as I'm not on a production line, and can take my time. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 4 21:26:22 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:26:22 -0800 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <66607F97-4BBB-4F1A-A2E3-9718080F57DC@xlisper.com> References: <66607F97-4BBB-4F1A-A2E3-9718080F57DC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <2DB3021C-3D8A-4341-B302-B2182CF564B0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Nov 4, at 6:23 PM, David Betz wrote: > I've just ordered the new Apple II book and I'd like to find a > machine I can use with it. I know I can just use an emulator but it > would be more fun to have actual hardware. Does anyone have an > Apple IIc in good condition that they're interested in selling? I do, or a II, I'd have to check which version - if you'd like to pick it up in Vancouver, B.C. As usual, knowing where you are helps. From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Nov 4 21:38:22 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 22:38:22 -0500 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <2DB3021C-3D8A-4341-B302-B2182CF564B0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <66607F97-4BBB-4F1A-A2E3-9718080F57DC@xlisper.com> <2DB3021C-3D8A-4341-B302-B2182CF564B0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <67992002-396E-4958-BDF8-CAF9F13D05C7@xlisper.com> >> I've just ordered the new Apple II book and I'd like to find a machine I can use with it. I know I can just use an emulator but it would be more fun to have actual hardware. Does anyone have an Apple IIc in good condition that they're interested in selling? > > I do, or a II, I'd have to check which version - if you'd like to pick it up in Vancouver, B.C. > > As usual, knowing where you are helps. > Hmmm... Good point. I'm in Bedford, NH which I'm afraid isn't very close to Vancouver, B.C. although I understand that's a beautiful place to visit! :-) From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Nov 4 22:24:38 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:24:38 -0500 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus Message-ID: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> For those that might find images of this type of stuff interesting http://techtravels.org/amiga/bug_katcher_installed.jpg I thought I might share my excitement. Keith From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 22:47:51 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 04:47:51 +0000 Subject: Apple IIc? Message-ID: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Sorta clich? response but check your local craigslist. They're really not too uncommon and shouldn't run you too much. IIc may be a bit less common than its big brother but still not at all rare or out of reach. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 4 22:04:08 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 21:04:08 -0700 Subject: Apple keyboards In-Reply-To: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Anyone know of a source of apple IIe keyboards??? From useddec at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 23:06:48 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 23:06:48 -0600 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <66607F97-4BBB-4F1A-A2E3-9718080F57DC@xlisper.com> References: <66607F97-4BBB-4F1A-A2E3-9718080F57DC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: I've got one in IL, but after tuesday it might take me a while to ship it. Contact me off list if you want it Paul On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:23 PM, David Betz wrote: > I've just ordered the new Apple II book and I'd like to find a machine I can use with it. I know I can just use an emulator but it would be more fun to have actual hardware. Does anyone have an Apple IIc in good condition that they're interested in selling? From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Nov 5 01:19:00 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 23:19:00 -0800 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus In-Reply-To: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8F9E808C0D5.000007C9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Nice. You doing development work, or are you going to use it as a vehicle to add stuff? N0body > -----Original Message----- > From: keithvz at verizon.net > Sent: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:24:38 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus > > For those that might find images of this type of stuff interesting > > http://techtravels.org/amiga/bug_katcher_installed.jpg > > I thought I might share my excitement. > > Keith ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 5 02:21:54 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 00:21:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 Message-ID: I think I have my head wrapped around the hardware tuneups that my Mac SE/30 requires. Moving on to the software. I've found install media and can get System 6 installed just fine. I can read and write HD floppies in my Linux box to move things in and out by sneakernet. I'm having a nasty time getting the ethernet board to work. I'm using an Asante MacCon PSD slot ethernet board. I downloaded the driver pack (still at Asante's website), made a driver install disk, and installed the driver stuff. This installs a driver for the board, ethertalk, and MacTCP. A diagnostic program on the disk says that the ethernet board is checking out fine, but I can't get the machine to talk or listen to the network. It's not at all clear how the MacTCP panel is supposed to be used. I've tried following http://www.applefool.com/se30/ and nothing works (though I can't get the Legacy Recover CD referred to there). Is there someone on this list who has done this before who can help me? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 5 03:10:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 04:10:09 -0500 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus In-Reply-To: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> References: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50978271.2070304@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2012 11:24 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > For those that might find images of this type of stuff interesting > > http://techtravels.org/amiga/bug_katcher_installed.jpg > > I thought I might share my excitement. Nice! Looks like you're gearin' up for some fun! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 03:29:28 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 01:29:28 -0800 Subject: AT&T 3B2/500 needs a new home In-Reply-To: <2C4C4FE9-D40F-40F5-8E3B-84CD213D776C@electricware.com> References: <2C4C4FE9-D40F-40F5-8E3B-84CD213D776C@electricware.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Corey Anderson wrote: > > I have an AT&T 3B2/500 that needs a new home. I've had it since it was pulled from service > about 13 years ago. It's in great cosmetic shape and would make a great addition > to the right person's collection. I don't know how much memory it has or the size of the hard drive, > and I haven't personally fired it up. > > If interested, please drop me a note, otherwise it's going to get recycled. > > I live in the Portland, Oregon area and would prefer to have someone pick it > up and I'm not really interested in shipping it. > Hi Corey, I am interested in your 3B2-500 if you still have it and want to give it away. I am a collector in Astoria, Oregon and just picked up a couple of terminals in a local sale. I would love to have a 3B2 to play with. I had a 3B1 years ago but nothing now. I have a van and could pick up. I am in Eugene at the moment for a meeting but will be going home through Portland Tuesday afternoon. Please let me know if it is still available. Paxton > Thanks, > Corey. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 5 05:40:09 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 12:40:09 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Hi, Am 05.11.2012 um 09:21 schrieb David Griffith: > I think I have my head wrapped around the hardware tuneups that my > Mac SE/30 requires. Moving on to the software. I've found install > media and can get System 6 installed just fine. I can read and > write HD floppies in my Linux box to move things in and out by > sneakernet. My personal opinion: Get System, 7.0.1 for free from Apple as download. It behaves slower, yes, but you'll get way more programs to run. The machines I'd stick to System 6 are 68000 at 8 MHz like the Plus, SE or comparables. > I'm having a nasty time getting the ethernet board to work. I'm > using an Asante MacCon PSD slot ethernet board. I downloaded the > driver pack (still at Asante's website), made a driver install disk, > and installed the driver stuff. This installs a driver for the > board, ethertalk, and MacTCP. A diagnostic program on the disk says > that the ethernet board is checking out fine, but I can't get the > machine to talk or listen to the network. It's not at all clear how > the MacTCP panel is supposed to be used. I've tried following http://www.applefool.com/se30/ > and nothing works (though I can't get the Legacy Recover CD > referred to there). > > Is there someone on this list who has done this before who can help > me? Yes. First, check if your connection to the network is valid (cabling, switch position on the rear panel, link LED on your Hub/Switch). You can also verify with changing the AppleTalk connection to Ethernet in the Network control panel. If you don't get an error, the connection is ok. That's a good test when you're using 10BASE-2 cabling with no indication if the net is working. Btw, since the board is a plain 8390-based board, the Apple Network Installer disk also works fine. For MacTCP, you'll have to switch to Ether*net*, not Ether*talk*. Ethernet is the native encapsulation type on Ethernet. (EtherTalk, LocalTalk, TokenTalk will encap TCP/IP-Packets into AppleTalk, for transporting IP over links which don't support native IP encap. LocalTalk is a good example for such a link. You need a gateway to decap such packets. Any Cisco Router with AppleTalk support will do, btw.) Enter a valid IP address for your network into the appropriate text entry field and click on more. Obtain Address: Manually (I don't know if MacTCP supports DHCP properly) Enter Subnet mask and Router(=Gateway) address. Enter a (default-)domain name and DNS IP-Address. Mark the entry as default. If MacTCP complains after closing that settings will become active only after reboot, do so. I strongly recommend to get the MacTCP Watcher freeware to get more diagnostics on the Mac itself. You should be aware that you CAN NOT ping the Mac from your LAN until you launch a TCP/IP program on the Mac. This will open the MacTCP driver and from this point on the Mac is pingable. Hope this helps to get your box running! :wq! PoC From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Nov 5 05:51:09 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 06:51:09 -0500 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> On Nov 4, 2012, at 11:47 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Sorta clich? response but check your local craigslist. They're really not too uncommon and shouldn't run you too much. IIc may be a bit less common than its big brother but still not at all rare or out of reach. I did that before posting my request here. I've seen them on the NH or Boston area Craigslist in the past but there don't seem to be any available at the moment. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 06:46:09 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 07:46:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I'm having a nasty time getting the ethernet board to work. I'm using an > Asante MacCon PSD slot ethernet board. If this adapter has two port types in the rear (e.g. AUI and 10Base-2 thinnet), the media select switch may be labeled backwards (I have one with this exact problem). Try flipping it in the "wrong" direction and see if you have better luck. -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 09:03:27 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:03:27 -0200 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus References: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <406AD772B57D43A6A2402ECFF7B85C0A@tababook> Hahahahahahaha!!! Great!!! I still want a keyboard and a HD interface for my A2000 :( I love to use Amiga OS :D What are you planning with this socket? ;oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Monahan" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 2:24 AM Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus > For those that might find images of this type of stuff interesting > > http://techtravels.org/amiga/bug_katcher_installed.jpg > > I thought I might share my excitement. > > Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 09:06:19 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:06:19 -0200 Subject: Apple IIc? References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> If anyone can find a logic board of a IIc (first or second version, mine is the 5 1/4 FDD type) that works, I'm in! :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Apple IIc? > On Nov 4, 2012, at 11:47 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > >> Sorta clich? response but check your local craigslist. They're really not >> too uncommon and shouldn't run you too much. IIc may be a bit less common >> than its big brother but still not at all rare or out of reach. > > I did that before posting my request here. I've seen them on the NH or > Boston area Craigslist in the past but there don't seem to be any > available at the moment. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 10:22:21 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:22:21 -0500 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus In-Reply-To: <8F9E808C0D5.000007C9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <8F9E808C0D5.000007C9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <5097E7BD.5010103@verizon.net> On 11/5/2012 2:19 AM, N0body H0me wrote: > Nice. You doing development work, or are you going to > use it as a vehicle to add stuff? > > N0body Mostly for doing analysis so I can fully understand what's going on. A lot of the other chips in the A500 are DIP and easily clippable, but this one was not -- it is now. In the end, the analysis work will support development -- both FPGA verification, and adding new compatible hardware. I've got a not yet published project that I'm working on to share my results. Thanks, Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 10:23:52 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:23:52 -0500 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus In-Reply-To: <406AD772B57D43A6A2402ECFF7B85C0A@tababook> References: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> <406AD772B57D43A6A2402ECFF7B85C0A@tababook> Message-ID: <5097E818.1010207@verizon.net> On 11/5/2012 10:03 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > What are you planning with this socket? ;oD I'll post the links once I get more work down with it. :) Thanks Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 10:27:46 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:27:46 -0500 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus In-Reply-To: <50978271.2070304@neurotica.com> References: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> <50978271.2070304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5097E902.7010501@verizon.net> On 11/5/2012 4:10 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nice! Looks like you're gearin' up for some fun! > > -Dave Indeed. My Rigol 1102D was ordered and will be arriving soon. I called their North America offices (in Ohio!), and was surprised to hear a knowledgeable local answer the phone. I was double-checking the logic analyzer depth before I ordered it. One million 16-bit (1 bit per channel, of course) values. A megasample. Not too bad @ 100mhz. Thanks Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 10:38:36 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:38:36 -0500 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus In-Reply-To: <5097E7BD.5010103@verizon.net> References: <8F9E808C0D5.000007C9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <5097E7BD.5010103@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 11/5/2012 2:19 AM, N0body H0me wrote: >> Nice. You doing development work, or are you going to >> use it as a vehicle to add stuff? >> >> N0body > > Mostly for doing analysis so I can fully understand what's going on. A lot of the other chips in the A500 are DIP and easily clippable, but this one was not -- it is now. > > In the end, the analysis work will support development -- both FPGA verification, and adding new compatible hardware. > > I've got a not yet published project that I'm working on to share my results. Well, THAT's pretty exciting. I'll look forward to hearing about it. - Dave From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 10:44:02 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:44:02 -0200 Subject: Bug Katcher and Agnus References: <50973F86.4000206@verizon.net> <50978271.2070304@neurotica.com> <5097E902.7010501@verizon.net> Message-ID: <37EF47B1926149F6A48BA74BD1271E99@tababook> > Indeed. My Rigol 1102D was ordered and will be arriving soon. I called > their North America offices (in Ohio!), and was surprised to hear a > knowledgeable local answer the phone. I was double-checking the logic > analyzer depth before I ordered it. One million 16-bit (1 bit per > channel, of course) values. A megasample. Not too bad @ 100mhz. A tip: An HP logic analyser is a VERY CHEAP (for you, americans), local and excellent option for multi-channel development. Glen Slick has some to sell. Me, Myself and I, use a 16500C loaded to the top. And I love it, although I still don't know how to use 5% of its capabilities... From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 5 14:24:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:24:45 -0700 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> Message-ID: <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > If anyone can find a logic board of a IIc (first or second version, > mine is the 5 1/4 FDD type) that works, I'm in! :o) And I'd like a IIc logic board that is bad! Or, for that matter, bad IIc+, IIe, or IIgs logic boads, or even good ones, or just the ASIC chips from them. The plan is to remove the Apple ASICs and decap and photomicrograph them. Especially interested in: IIe: HAL, IOU, MMU IIc(+): HAL, IOU, MMU, IWM IIgs: FPI, Mega II, Slotmaker, VGC, IWM, RTC, ADB GLU, ADB microcontroller, Sound GLU, DOC (Ensonic) From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 14:43:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:43:39 -0500 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> If anyone can find a logic board of a IIc (first or second version, mine is the 5 1/4 FDD type) that works, I'm in! :o) > > And I'd like a IIc logic board that is bad! > > Or, for that matter, bad IIc+, IIe, or IIgs logic boads, or even good ones, or just the ASIC chips from them. > > The plan is to remove the Apple ASICs and decap and photomicrograph them. Especially interested in: > IIe: HAL, IOU, MMU > IIc(+): HAL, IOU, MMU, IWM > IIgs: FPI, Mega II, Slotmaker, VGC, IWM, RTC, ADB GLU, ADB microcontroller, Sound GLU, DOC (Ensonic) I believe the ADB microcontroller is not much more than a 6800-familiy micro with masked ROM. I suppose you might want that for completeness' sake, but otherwise, I think that's been done. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 5 14:55:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:55:31 -0700 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <509827C3.2020806@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > I believe the ADB microcontroller is not much more than a 6800-familiy > micro with masked ROM. It's a Mitsubishi part with a 6502-compatible core. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 14:58:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:58:51 -0500 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <509827C3.2020806@brouhaha.com> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> <509827C3.2020806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BA53F1C-87E7-4F65-A9BB-892C13D1039E@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2012, at 3:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> I believe the ADB microcontroller is not much more than a 6800-familiy micro with masked ROM. > > It's a Mitsubishi part with a 6502-compatible core. I've been lied to for years! - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 5 15:18:16 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <4BA53F1C-87E7-4F65-A9BB-892C13D1039E@gmail.com> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> <509827C3.2020806@brouhaha.com> <4BA53F1C-87E7-4F65-A9BB-892C13D1039E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 5, 2012, at 3:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> David Riley wrote: >>> I believe the ADB microcontroller is not much more than a 6800-familiy micro with masked ROM. >> >> It's a Mitsubishi part with a 6502-compatible core. > > I've been lied to for years! > Well yeah, it's Apple after all. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 16:07:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 22:07:59 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On 5 November 2012 11:40, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > My personal opinion: Get System, 7.0.1 for free from Apple as download. It > behaves slower, yes, but you'll get way more programs to run. The machines > I'd stick to System 6 are 68000 at 8 MHz like the Plus, SE or comparables. I agree. In fact, for the SE/30, I'd say go for 7.5.5. Networking Macs got a /lot/ easier between System 6 (arcane & quite complex), 7.0 (easier), 7.5 (vaguely sensible) and 7.6 (really pretty easy). System 6 doesn't really natively understand networking. 7.0 does, but only speaks Appletalk unaided. 7.5 has a vague notion of what TCP/IP is but doesn't really approve of it. :?) By 7.6 they'd given in and accepted it but your SE/30's too old. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 16:59:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:59:22 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <9E22B609-29A9-49BB-82DD-056B65499BC9@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2012, at 5:07 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 5 November 2012 11:40, Schindler Patrik wrote: >> >> My personal opinion: Get System, 7.0.1 for free from Apple as download. It >> behaves slower, yes, but you'll get way more programs to run. The machines >> I'd stick to System 6 are 68000 at 8 MHz like the Plus, SE or comparables. > > I agree. > > In fact, for the SE/30, I'd say go for 7.5.5. > > Networking Macs got a /lot/ easier between System 6 (arcane & quite > complex), 7.0 (easier), 7.5 (vaguely sensible) and 7.6 (really pretty > easy). Open Transport made things a lot easier in a number of ways, but it is resource-intensive. An '030 machine might be able to handle it, just consider "classic" networking if it really eats into your memory. OT 1.1.2 (which I think is the last separately-available version, but someone should correct me if I'm wrong) will run on anything down to 7.1 on a 68030 or later. Try it on whatever system you're running your SE/30 on! > System 6 doesn't really natively understand networking. 7.0 does, but > only speaks Appletalk unaided. 7.5 has a vague notion of what TCP/IP > is but doesn't really approve of it. :?) I disagree; MacTCP is a little funky, but I've used it to great effect on 7.1 and 7.5 systems (and with somewhat more difficulty on 6.x, but finding applications supporting TCP and 6.x can be a challenge). Appletalk, on the other hand, was easy enough from 6.x on. I really miss it some days. > By 7.6 they'd given in and accepted it but your SE/30's too old. Indeed; I'm not actually 100% sure whether you can run 7.6 on an SE/30 (I've certainly run it on '030 machines, but I don't really recommend it). 7.5.x can run fine on 4MB machines and doesn't feel sluggish on an '030 like 7.6 does. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 17:33:01 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <9E22B609-29A9-49BB-82DD-056B65499BC9@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Nov 5, 12 05:59:22 pm" Message-ID: <201211052333.qA5NX1vr29819014@floodgap.com> > > By 7.6 they'd given in and accepted it but your SE/30's too old. > > Indeed; I'm not actually 100% sure whether you can run 7.6 on > an SE/30 (I've certainly run it on '030 machines, but I don't > really recommend it). 7.5.x can run fine on 4MB machines and > doesn't feel sluggish on an '030 like 7.6 does. The SE/30 does not have 32-bit clean ROMs, so it cannot run System 7.6. If you steal the ROM SIMM from those relatively rare IIsis that have one, or those relatively rare IIfxs, that will make the SE/30 32-bit clean, and thus able to boot 7.6. I am also told that PDS upgrades, such as an '040, will allow the SE/30 to boot up to 8.1. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Heisenberg may have been here. --------------------------------------------- From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 5 17:33:53 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:33:53 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: Am 05.11.2012 um 23:07 schrieb Liam Proven: > In fact, for the SE/30, I'd say go for 7.5.5. I'd disagree. It eats a LOT of RAM and CPU-Resources. And it takes WAY longer to boot. 7.5.5 would be my choice on 040-machines. Even on my IIfx, I'm "only" running 7.1. > Networking Macs got a /lot/ easier between System 6 (arcane & quite > complex), 7.0 (easier), 7.5 (vaguely sensible) and 7.6 (really pretty > easy). Networking was pretty easy with System 6. Networking is not only restricted to TCP/IP. AppleTalk works like a charm, even with System 6. There also basic client apps for some services. Eudora, Fetch, Newswatcher, Ircle, MacX... > System 6 doesn't really natively understand networking. Wrong. It does not natively understand *TCP/IP*. It speaks AppleTalk thru LocalTalk, Ethernet- and Token Ring-Boards. > 7.0 does Wrong. You also need MacTCP. > but only speaks Appletalk unaided. Wrong. There's no difference between System 6 and up to System 7.1 in terms of networking. > 7.5 has a vague notion of what TCP/IP is but doesn't really approve > of it. :?) > By 7.6 they'd given in and accepted it but your SE/30's too old. System 7.5 upwards had OpenTransport. It's really bloat but if you own a fast machine, it's worth the effort. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 5 17:48:00 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:48:00 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <9E22B609-29A9-49BB-82DD-056B65499BC9@gmail.com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <9E22B609-29A9-49BB-82DD-056B65499BC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <259034CA-CBF2-4A13-9383-11EA23E788A3@pocnet.net> Am 05.11.2012 um 23:59 schrieb David Riley: >> Networking Macs got a /lot/ easier between System 6 (arcane & quite >> complex), 7.0 (easier), 7.5 (vaguely sensible) and 7.6 (really pretty >> easy). > > Open Transport made things a lot easier in a number of ways, but it > is resource-intensive. An '030 machine might be able to handle it, > just consider "classic" networking if it really eats into your > memory. OT 1.1.2 behaved slower on my IIfx than "classic" networking. Pity I lost the benchmark notes. :-/ I'd recommend OT for fast 040 or PPC machines. > OT 1.1.2 (which I think is the last separately-available version, > but someone should correct me if I'm wrong) will run on anything down > to 7.1 on a 68030 or later. Try it on whatever system you're running > your SE/30 on! It basically works. You'll have to install 1.1 first and then upgrade to 1.1.2. The OT-On/Off-Switcher is a special kind of App which 7.1 doesn't understand: It thinks it's a plain document. It's unusable for that reason. >> System 6 doesn't really natively understand networking. 7.0 does, but >> only speaks Appletalk unaided. 7.5 has a vague notion of what TCP/IP >> is but doesn't really approve of it. :?) > > I disagree; MacTCP is a little funky, but I've used it to great > effect on 7.1 and 7.5 systems (and with somewhat more difficulty > on 6.x, but finding applications supporting TCP and 6.x can be > a challenge). MacTCP 2.1 has been patched so you can enter fields similar to OpenTransport TCP/IP-Settings. Watch out for it! Btw, Apps: Don't even think about running any browser under anything older than OS X 10.3.9. Most sites nowadays use HTML-features, old browsers just don't understand. Either they look crappy or some JavaScript crashes Netcrap or Internet Exploder. Most don't understand PNG-Graphics. I won't even talk of NCSA Mosaic or some text-only browsers. (I did not test iCab recently.) And if that's not enough, running Netcrab 4.5 even on a PMac 7100/66 is painfully slow compared to what I'm used to from my main Mac (Dual PMac G5 at 2GHz). And this machine is also a few years old... > Appletalk, on the other hand, was easy enough from 6.x on. I > really miss it some days. With a bunch of retro machines, there's no reason to miss it ;-) > 7.5.x can run fine on 4MB machines and doesn't feel sluggish on an > '030 like 7.6 does. On 4MB machines? You don't have much RAM free for Applications, then, I suppose? :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 5 17:49:02 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:49:02 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211052333.qA5NX1vr29819014@floodgap.com> References: <201211052333.qA5NX1vr29819014@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8ADC96FB-3128-4C63-BD4A-33C0A4B3B1DE@pocnet.net> Am 06.11.2012 um 00:33 schrieb Cameron Kaiser: > The SE/30 does not have 32-bit clean ROMs, so it cannot run System > 7.6. > If you steal the ROM SIMM from those relatively rare IIsis that have > one, > or those relatively rare IIfxs, that will make the SE/30 32-bit > clean, and > thus able to boot 7.6. I tried to insert a IIfx ROM into the SE/30. It simply doesn't work. Got the checkerboard-screen and nothing else. :wq! PoC From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 18:02:00 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:02:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <259034CA-CBF2-4A13-9383-11EA23E788A3@pocnet.net> from Schindler Patrik at "Nov 6, 12 00:48:00 am" Message-ID: <201211060002.qA6020jM30408808@floodgap.com> > Btw, Apps: Don't even think about running any browser under anything > older than OS X 10.3.9. Most sites nowadays use HTML-features, old > browsers just don't understand. Either they look crappy or some > JavaScript crashes Netcrap or Internet Exploder. Most don't understand > PNG-Graphics. I won't even talk of NCSA Mosaic or some text-only > browsers. (I did not test iCab recently.) And if that's not enough, > running Netcrab 4.5 even on a PMac 7100/66 is painfully slow compared > to what I'm used to from my main Mac (Dual PMac G5 at 2GHz). And this > machine is also a few years old... *cough*Classilla*cough* Though in fairness I'm targetting it to mobile sites, which work very well on that class of machines. My PowerBook 1400 does quite nicely on mobile CNN, for example. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't treat fictional people as if they're real. It only encourages them. -- From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 18:02:20 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 00:02:20 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On 5 November 2012 23:33, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Am 05.11.2012 um 23:07 schrieb Liam Proven: > > >> In fact, for the SE/30, I'd say go for 7.5.5. > > > I'd disagree. It eats a LOT of RAM and CPU-Resources. And it takes WAY > longer to boot. 7.5.5 would be my choice on 040-machines. Even on my IIfx, > I'm "only" running 7.1. I disagree in turn. Until it died of capacitor failure, I had my Classic II with 10MB of RAM and a 16MHz 68030 on a 16-bit bus running 6.0.8, 7.0.1, 7.5.5 and 7.6.1. With enough addons to make it a pleasant and productive environment, System 6 was not really significantly smaller or faster than 7.x, but it was a lot more limited. 7.0 is better but still very limited and 7.5 introduced new technologies that felt a bit unfinished to me. I ran 7.6.1 from preference. Its performance was just fine, even on a machine below the official lowest spec the OS will support. By modern OS standards it is tiny and very simple and quick. If someone is not a classic MacOS expert, I would recommend they run the latest version that their hardware can support. Yes, 6 does Appletalk, but Appletalk is really almost no use today and is no help in trying to get a classic Mac talking to modern machines for file transfer or anything. You *need* TCP/IP and the latest web browser you can find, just to have a chance of downloading anything - I used Netscape Navigator 4.0.4 or Communicator 4.6 or thereabouts. >> Networking Macs got a /lot/ easier between System 6 (arcane & quite >> complex), 7.0 (easier), 7.5 (vaguely sensible) and 7.6 (really pretty >> easy). > > Networking was pretty easy with System 6. Networking is not only restricted > to TCP/IP. AppleTalk works like a charm, even with System 6. It works, sure. It's no use in 2012, but yes, it works. > There also > basic client apps for some services. Eudora, Fetch, Newswatcher, Ircle, > MacX... Again, not worth the bother in 2012. Effectively, Sys6 cannot do anything at all on the C21 Internet. >> System 6 doesn't really natively understand networking. > > Wrong. It does not natively understand *TCP/IP*. It speaks AppleTalk thru > LocalTalk, Ethernet- and Token Ring-Boards. Yes, which, as I said, is useless today except for talking to other 1980s Macs. I want to /use/ my Macs. E.g. to write on them and then send the result over to my modern Linux PC for cleaning up, format conversion and submission to my editor or posting on one of my blogs or something. >> 7.0 does > > Wrong. You also need MacTCP. > > > >> but only speaks Appletalk unaided. So you contradict me and then quote the line that agrees with your contradiction? Huh? > Wrong. There's no difference between System 6 and up to System 7.1 in terms > of networking. > >> 7.5 has a vague notion of what TCP/IP is but doesn't really approve of it. >> :?) >> By 7.6 they'd given in and accepted it but your SE/30's too old. > > > > System 7.5 upwards had OpenTransport. It's really bloat but if you own a > fast machine, it's worth the effort. This is exactly what I meant. OT is not bloat and it works more easily and usefully than MacTCP, which IIRC doesn't even understand DHCP. In other words, it too is rather useless today. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 18:03:09 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:03:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <8ADC96FB-3128-4C63-BD4A-33C0A4B3B1DE@pocnet.net> from Schindler Patrik at "Nov 6, 12 00:49:02 am" Message-ID: <201211060003.qA6039FI30343296@floodgap.com> > I tried to insert a IIfx ROM into the SE/30. It simply doesn't work. > Got the checkerboard-screen and nothing else. Maybe it's a particular revision of the ROM. But I've never tried it personally (never owned a IIfx *sniffle*). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- People are weird. -- Law & Order SVU --------------------------------------- From peter at rittwage.com Mon Nov 5 18:15:42 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:15:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <54238.75.76.203.106.1352160942.squirrel@rittwage.com> I'm pretty sure you can see what those circuits do by looking at the Apple II (or Plus) motherboards- at least for the IIe. :) -Pete On Mon, November 5, 2012 3:24 pm, Eric Smith wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> If anyone can find a logic board of a IIc (first or second version, >> mine is the 5 1/4 FDD type) that works, I'm in! :o) > > And I'd like a IIc logic board that is bad! > > Or, for that matter, bad IIc+, IIe, or IIgs logic boads, or even good > ones, or just the ASIC chips from them. > > The plan is to remove the Apple ASICs and decap and photomicrograph > them. Especially interested in: > IIe: HAL, IOU, MMU > IIc(+): HAL, IOU, MMU, IWM > IIgs: FPI, Mega II, Slotmaker, VGC, IWM, RTC, ADB GLU, ADB > microcontroller, Sound GLU, DOC (Ensonic) > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 5 18:27:52 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:27:52 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <32C55864685A4B8B85BB6A32CF41E6EF@hd2600xt6a04f7> Both of my SE/30's (32Mb RAM) with ethernet cards run OS 7.1 with OT. OS 6 is better for a regular 68000 SE and OS 7.6.1 or newer works best for me on an 040 Quadra or newer. OpenTransport is great for DHCP so you don't have to set up each machine whith its own ip address, makes it easy for me to connect to another mac or my win2k server running Apple shares. Browsing the current WWW on a SE/30 is mostly a waste of time but FTP works fine. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 18:40:56 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:40:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <32C55864685A4B8B85BB6A32CF41E6EF@hd2600xt6a04f7> from TeoZ at "Nov 5, 12 07:27:52 pm" Message-ID: <201211060040.qA60euCm30343398@floodgap.com> > Both of my SE/30's (32Mb RAM) with ethernet cards run OS 7.1 with OT. OS 6 > is better for a regular 68000 SE and OS 7.6.1 or newer works best for me on > an 040 Quadra or newer. > > OpenTransport is great for DHCP so you don't have to set up each machine > whith its own ip address, makes it easy for me to connect to another mac or > my win2k server running Apple shares. Browsing the current WWW on a SE/30 is > mostly a waste of time but FTP works fine. Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 19:50:30 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:50:30 -0600 Subject: NMOS 6502 internals Message-ID: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> Just looking at some 6502 stuff, and the program counter notes at http://www.6502.org/tutorials/6502opcodes.html#PC say: "When the 6502 is ready for the next instruction it increments the program counter before fetching the instruction." ... which seems to imply that T-cycle 0 of an instruction first increments PC, then fetches the opcode from the memory location pointed to by PC. Which seems nuts, as it would also mean that either jump addresses would have to be off by 1, or at the start of T0 the CPU would have to determine what the _previous_ instruction was and then either increment PC or leave it alone accordingly. And all of this would have to happen before the address is placed on the address bus approximately 1/4 of the way into T0. I expect that what actually happens is that PC's contents are latched onto the address bus during the clock-low half of T0, R/W is asserted, and *then* PC is incremented. During the subsequent clock-high half of T0, the data bus will reflect the contents of [PC] as it was at the start of T0, and the PC increment will complete, so that at the end of T0 PC is pointing to either an operand byte for the current instruction, or the next instruction in the sequence (if the current instruction has no operands). Can anyone confirm? Although technically I suppose the text on the site would still be accurate, because the increment would actually have begun before the fetch had entirely completed, but the way it reads to me is that the opcode fetch happens at [PC+1], not [PC]... The text then goes on to say: "Once it has the op code, it increments the program counter by the length of the operand, if any." 6502 operands can be 1 or 2 bytes in length; the above seems to imply that for a 2-byte operand it would add 2 to PC - meaning it would have to fetch the first operand byte from PC-1 (and there's no PC-decrement logic in sight). I expect that what it really does is fetch the first byte from PC (which will have been incremented during the opcode fetch cycle), increments PC by 1, fetches the second byte, and increments PC again. Right? :-) Now, someone on the BBC micro list said they think that the 6502 might always do an operand byte fetch immediately after an opcode fetch, even if that instruction doesn't have any operand data - simply because it takes time for the CPU to decode the instruction. If it turns out that the instruction doesn't have an operand, it avoids doing the PC increment that would have been done if an operand were present (which means that at the next cycle, which the CPU will perform as an opcode fetch, the same byte is re-read from memory and interpreted as an instruction). Does anyone know if this "always read" is what happens? Or is the instruction decoding actually quick enough for the CPU to know by the end of T0 that there's no opcode data (and so it can reset its cycle counter and perform the next cycle as an opcode fetch)? cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 19:56:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 20:56:57 -0500 Subject: NMOS 6502 internals In-Reply-To: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> References: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DA5DCE3-C0E0-4979-80DD-5C14ACFB2F04@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2012, at 8:50 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Just looking at some 6502 stuff, and the program counter notes at http://www.6502.org/tutorials/6502opcodes.html#PC say: > > "When the 6502 is ready for the next instruction it increments the program counter before fetching the instruction." If you're curious about ALL the internal workings of the NMOS 6502, you may find the Visual 6502 project quite instructive: http://visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html You can see what every transistor is doing at every half-clock, along with somewhat more human-readable annotated traces. - Dave From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:38:46 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 18:38:46 -0800 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211060003.qA6039FI30343296@floodgap.com> References: <201211060003.qA6039FI30343296@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50987836.1010607@gmail.com> On 11/5/2012 4:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I tried to insert a IIfx ROM into the SE/30. It simply doesn't work. >> Got the checkerboard-screen and nothing else. > Maybe it's a particular revision of the ROM. But I've never tried it > personally (never owned a IIfx *sniffle*). > This has never worked for me either. With the ROM from my IIfxI usually get the checkerboard pattern. I -seem- to recallactually getting it to boot at one point, but it never successfully completed startup. (This latter recollection may be faulty as it has been a very long time since I last tried it.) - Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 5 21:26:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:26:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <259034CA-CBF2-4A13-9383-11EA23E788A3@pocnet.net> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <9E22B609-29A9-49BB-82DD-056B65499BC9@gmail.com> <259034CA-CBF2-4A13-9383-11EA23E788A3@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Schindler Patrik wrote: >>> System 6 doesn't really natively understand networking. 7.0 does, but >>> only speaks Appletalk unaided. 7.5 has a vague notion of what TCP/IP >>> is but doesn't really approve of it. :?) >> >> I disagree; MacTCP is a little funky, but I've used it to great >> effect on 7.1 and 7.5 systems (and with somewhat more difficulty >> on 6.x, but finding applications supporting TCP and 6.x can be >> a challenge). > > MacTCP 2.1 has been patched so you can enter fields similar to OpenTransport > TCP/IP-Settings. Watch out for it! Do you have a copy of MacTCP already patched to 2.1? Every time I try to do the patch myself, it aborts with an "Error -50". > Btw, Apps: Don't even think about running any browser under anything older > than OS X 10.3.9. Most sites nowadays use HTML-features, old browsers just > don't understand. Either they look crappy or some JavaScript crashes Netcrap > or Internet Exploder. Most don't understand PNG-Graphics. I won't even talk > of NCSA Mosaic or some text-only browsers. (I did not test iCab recently.) > And if that's not enough, running Netcrab 4.5 even on a PMac 7100/66 is > painfully slow compared to what I'm used to from my main Mac (Dual PMac > G5 at 2GHz). And this machine is also a few years old... I'm not terribly interested in running a web browser on this machine. I'll be fine using telnet, ftp, gopher, irc, and maybe ssh (if such a beast exists). \-- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 23:48:24 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 21:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Nov 5, 12 07:26:28 pm" Message-ID: <201211060548.qA65mOD330277674@floodgap.com> > > And if that's not enough, running Netcrab 4.5 even on a PMac 7100/66 is > > painfully slow compared to what I'm used to from my main Mac (Dual PMac > > G5 at 2GHz). And this machine is also a few years old... > > I'm not terribly interested in running a web browser on this machine. > I'll be fine using telnet, ftp, gopher, irc, and maybe ssh (if such a > beast exists). MacSSH has a 68K version. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From francois.dion at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 13:09:31 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:09:31 -0500 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I posted about the p112 to the raspberry pi forum a little while back. I also just did today a post on my blog. I get 500-1000 visitors a day, maybe it'll help, but I think the few interested were already aware from the raspberry pi forum. I'll post about it to our local hackerspace too. http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/11/retro-computing-kit.html Fran?ois From bdamer at digitalspace.com Tue Nov 6 03:16:21 2012 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 14:16:21 +0500 Subject: Ton of PDP-11 Stuff in West LA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CC folks, I just received this note from a Rufus Crosby whose recently passed brother in law has a ton of PDP-11 stuff in the West LA area, I am passing this on to you, feel free to contact Rufus at: RufusRufus at aol.com From: RufusRufus at aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 03:01:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: DigiBarn Computer Museum: Comment submission form. To: bdamer at digitalspace.com panded to false Hi Bruce, My brother in law's estate has a lot of PTP11 stuff, hardware stuff, manuals and literature. That stuff began to become obsolete and he could get it for almost nothing at the swap meets and he would come back with car loads of it. I am not a computer guy, I know nothing, I mean zero, about the products of the Digital Equipment Corporation but I would hate to see stuff going to landfill that somebody would really want or treasure. It would require somebody to inspect all the stuff to find if there was anything of interest in it. None of us have any idea of what he had or where it is. It is a real pig in the poke. Still, if somebody has real interest, have them get in contact with me and maybe we can come up with some plan. I am sorry, but I just don't have an inventory of what he has. Nor has anybody else. Rufus Crosby From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 06:35:52 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:35:52 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <9E22B609-29A9-49BB-82DD-056B65499BC9@gmail.com> <259034CA-CBF2-4A13-9383-11EA23E788A3@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <2930D0B1-554A-4E4C-B23F-D6251397CEE9@pocnet.net> Am 06.11.2012 um 04:26 schrieb David Griffith: >> MacTCP 2.1 has been patched so you can enter fields similar to >> OpenTransport TCP/IP-Settings. Watch out for it! > Do you have a copy of MacTCP already patched to 2.1? Every time I > try to do the patch myself, it aborts with an "Error -50". Yes, i do. Untouched, since MacTCP modifies itself thru configuration. Shall I attach it to the list? > I'm not terribly interested in running a web browser on this > machine. I'll be fine using telnet, ftp, gopher, irc, and maybe ssh > (if such a beast exists). Look for Nifty Telnet, which also supports sshv1. Perhaps a better idea would be to use Better Telnet to a *NIX machine in the local LAN and ssh from there. At least, that is what I do. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 07:41:47 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:41:47 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Hi, first, please apoplogize. I didn't and don't want to offend! It's just the way I feel from years of practice. Am 06.11.2012 um 01:02 schrieb Liam Proven: >> I'd disagree. It eats a LOT of RAM and CPU-Resources. And it takes >> WAY >> longer to boot. 7.5.5 would be my choice on 040-machines. Even on >> my IIfx, >> I'm "only" running 7.1. > > I disagree in turn. Until it died of capacitor failure, I had my > Classic II with 10MB of RAM and a 16MHz 68030 on a 16-bit bus running > 6.0.8, 7.0.1, 7.5.5 and 7.6.1. > > With enough addons to make it a pleasant and productive environment, > System 6 was not really significantly smaller or faster than 7.x, but > it was a lot more limited. The definition of a "pleasant and productive environment" heavily depends on personal taste. :-) I'm running only a few extensions on the SE and LC. With the addidional 192K RAM Cache, this adds up to a 800KB System in RAM, with MultiFinder, without Finder. > I ran 7.6.1 from preference. Its performance was just fine, even on a > machine below the official lowest spec the OS will support. By modern > OS standards it is tiny and very simple and quick. Maybe it's reasonably quick when it's running but booting is painfully slow on low end machines. Especially *with* extensions to provide a "pleasant and productive environment". ;-) Btw, modern standards: Are we talking of retrocomputing or are we talking to squeeze the last bits out of old machines so they can be used like new ones? This also applies to your opinion about AppleTalk. AT is running fine in my LAN. Several printers get their data via AppleTalk, many old machines exchange data with AppleTalk. Broad Cast depends on AT. Program Linking depends on AT (which I'm experimenting with the aid of the MPW shell). My Linux Box runs Debian 6 with a Debian-supplied Netatalk 2, so exchange of data is like a charm between all generations of Mac OS, from 6.0.7 up to 10.5.8. If if comes down to machines not equipped with Ethernet or Token Ring, there's no other choice than running AppleTalk over LocalTalk. One may use MacTCP or Open Transport to encap IP into AppleTalk packets, so still IP is possible (with a maximum MTU of 576 Bytes). I have a LaserJet 4ML which is network capable via LocalTalk *only*. How can I print from my DOS-machine on this? Running Netware 3.12 in a VM, the print job gets to a Netware queue, rerouted via capture- command. From there, ATPS (Apple Talk Print Server) on Netware takes the job out of the queue and forwards it to the printer via AppleTalk. Works like a charm! I have a LaserJet 5100, equipped with a Token Ring network card. How can I print from my IIfx on this? HP Token Ring equipment doesn't talk AppleTalk. I'm printing into a Netware queue via AppleTalk. From there, the pserver.nlm takes the job and feeds it to the printer via IPX. AppleTalk may be obsolete but not unusable in retro-environments. It's still usable and is still a lot more easy than trying to make Sys 6 talk to an AFP-Server via TCP/IP Port 548. Many protocols can co-exist on a LAN. :-) I'm even running IPv6 on Token Ring. Recent Linux kernels can encap the packets the right way. > Yes, 6 does Appletalk, but Appletalk is really almost no use today and > is no help in trying to get a classic Mac talking to modern machines > for file transfer or anything. You *need* TCP/IP and the latest web > browser you can find, just to have a chance of downloading anything - > I used Netscape Navigator 4.0.4 or Communicator 4.6 or thereabouts. Debian 6 is the current stable Deb-distro, I'm running on an AMD box. Not outdated - and still AT capable. When it comes do download from the web, I'm either using telnet to use wget on the linux box, or my G5 with Safari or Firefox which is way faster than a slow CPU overloaded with IP and slow browser code. From there I can transfer the stuff to the destination box. Via AppleTalk. You see, the extent of "you need TCP/IP" statement depends heavily on usage scenarios. >> There also >> basic client apps for some services. Eudora, Fetch, Newswatcher, >> Ircle, >> MacX... > > Again, not worth the bother in 2012. Effectively, Sys6 cannot do > anything at all on the C21 Internet. There are still interesting Gopher sites and FTP Mirrors with old Mac stuff to use. And there's stil use of NewsWatcher. But, see above, downloading from old machines is painfully slow. If you want to have some kind of hardware-QoS to not saturate your internet connection, it's the fun way to go. :-) Even in 2012, there's more than just http in the Internet. > I want to /use/ my Macs. E.g. to write on them and then send the > result over to my modern Linux PC for cleaning up, format conversion > and submission to my editor or posting on one of my blogs or > something. Me either. So we're basically talkin' 'bout the same. Let alone, the way of usage seems to be different. Example: On my IIfx, I'm running Ircle, for chatting on an internal IRC-Network with a lot of friends. I'm running telnet to tail -f the system log of my linux box. I'm running MacX to see what XLoad tells about the usage of my Linux box. I'm running Newswatcher to read and answer interesting discussions in Mac centric usenet groups. I'm running Peter Lewis' talk(d) applications for copypasting Web-URLs from and to IRC or news articles, to watch on the G5. This is a very IP-centric usage. You may tell this usage as "mostly passive", which is true for most apps. But if I need it, I'm also running PageMaker 5 or FreeHand 3.1 for documentation use or drawing cirquit diagrams. But I use them preferred on my 7500 with a "G3"-Card @400MHz. This box still has 7.6.1 and 0,5GB of RAM - it runs like hell and the mentioned apps are really fun to use, because there's seldom wasted waiting-for-the- computer-to-catch-up-time. > So you contradict me and then quote the line that agrees with your > contradiction? Huh? Sorry. I should not try to make a senseful discussion when being tired. Please apologize. >> System 7.5 upwards had OpenTransport. It's really bloat but if you >> own a >> fast machine, it's worth the effort. > > This is exactly what I meant. OT is not bloat and it works more easily > and usefully than MacTCP, which IIRC doesn't even understand DHCP. In > other words, it too is rather useless today. DHCP is not a must-have. I'm running DNS on my Linux-Box in my LAN, so I don't want to have dynamic IP addresses. There's only a small DHCP- Range, just for "guest boxes", for netbooting XTerminals or my G5 when I need to run Disk First Aid, for a fast installation of Debian on friend's boxes. Any static (in terms of will-not-be-moved) machine has static IP-Adresses configured. I don't get the point why machines, which don't change networks (like a notebook, taken from place to place), need DHCP. Avoiding IP collisions? Is a matter of documentation. For me, my documentation is the DNS zone files. From CPU usage, OT *is* bloat, but as stated, on faster machines you win throughput. On slower ones (< 040) you lose throughput *and* RAM. The only win would be DHCP-capabilities and a more friendly config interface. Which is not worth the effort *for me*. To conclude, I try to use most of my old machines as old machines, with software which was more or less up to date when they were manufactured and/or mostly used. Most of these are unmodified in terms of "no accelerator boards". Just to get the real retro flash. ;-) This doesn't prevent them to be useful or productive. As stated on top, it's a matter of taste what one calls "being productive". So, please don't forcibly kill AppleTalk for everyone by stating it's not useful (to you). It is but it's a question of usage scenario. Don't tell OT is a general must-have. It just makes no sense on slow machines. Thanks. :-) :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 07:46:19 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:46:19 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211060002.qA6020jM30408808@floodgap.com> References: <201211060002.qA6020jM30408808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46D264CE-DC35-4BC9-A734-59B3739533ED@pocnet.net> Am 06.11.2012 um 01:02 schrieb Cameron Kaiser: > *cough*Classilla*cough* Thanks for the hint, I didn't know that one! Seems to be a good thing to test on my 9600! But since I prefer MacOS 7 or older on my boxes, this doesn't help on these. > Though in fairness I'm targetting it to mobile sites, which work very > well on that class of machines. My PowerBook 1400 does quite nicely on > mobile CNN, for example. That's a good hint! Even Wikipedia seems to be reasonably useful! :wq! PoC From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 6 08:23:22 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 06:23:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> from Schindler Patrik at "Nov 6, 12 02:41:47 pm" Message-ID: <201211061423.qA6ENMt230408864@floodgap.com> > > This is exactly what I meant. OT is not bloat and it works more easily > > and usefully than MacTCP, which IIRC doesn't even understand DHCP. In > > other words, it too is rather useless today. > > DHCP is not a must-have. I don't use DHCP on my internal network either except a guest range for people who want to connect to the secured wired backbone (but most of the guests just use the WiFi on the network DMZ and never see the inside network). So MacTCP suffices. That said, I don't have any more System 6 Macs, and the '040 I use most often (my clock-chipped Quadra 800) is usually in A/UX. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Precious needs ... an aspirin. -- "Tales of the Questor" 7/28/04 ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 6 08:25:09 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 06:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <2930D0B1-554A-4E4C-B23F-D6251397CEE9@pocnet.net> from Schindler Patrik at "Nov 6, 12 01:35:52 pm" Message-ID: <201211061425.qA6EP9Sd29622292@floodgap.com> > > > MacTCP 2.1 has been patched so you can enter fields similar to > > > OpenTransport TCP/IP-Settings. Watch out for it! > > > > Do you have a copy of MacTCP already patched to 2.1? Every time I > > try to do the patch myself, it aborts with an "Error -50". > > Yes, i do. Untouched, since MacTCP modifies itself thru configuration. > Shall I attach it to the list? I, too, have had poor luck with MacTCP 2.1 patchers. The list will not allow attachments, but I would be happy to put it on the Floodgap Gopher archive if sent to me off-list. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Humor is a drug which it's the fashion to abuse. -- William Gilbert -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 6 08:28:29 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 06:28:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ton of PDP-11 Stuff in West LA In-Reply-To: from Bruce Damer at "Nov 6, 12 02:16:21 pm" Message-ID: <201211061428.qA6EST5129622322@floodgap.com> > > My brother in law's estate has a lot of PTP11 stuff, hardware stuff, > > manuals and literature. That stuff began to become obsolete and he > > could get it for almost nothing at the swap meets and he would come > > back with car loads of it. I am not a computer guy, I know nothing, I > > CC folks, I just received this note from a Rufus Crosby whose > recently passed brother in law has a ton of PDP-11 stuff in the West > LA area, I am passing this on to you, feel free to contact Rufus at: > RufusRufus at aol.com Are others here in Sunny So Cal interested? Perhaps we can make an outing of it. I'd be interested in any small PDP-11 systems. I'll contact him myself later this week if no one else local seems piqued. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Expect bright evenings, especially from the cop car lights. ------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 6 08:29:16 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 06:29:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211060040.qA60euCm30343398@floodgap.com> References: <201211060040.qA60euCm30343398@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Both of my SE/30's (32Mb RAM) with ethernet cards run OS 7.1 with OT. OS 6 >> is better for a regular 68000 SE and OS 7.6.1 or newer works best for me on >> an 040 Quadra or newer. >> >> OpenTransport is great for DHCP so you don't have to set up each machine >> whith its own ip address, makes it easy for me to connect to another mac or >> my win2k server running Apple shares. Browsing the current WWW on a SE/30 is >> mostly a waste of time but FTP works fine. > > Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher mushroom, mushroom! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 08:43:03 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 09:43:03 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211052333.qA5NX1vr29819014@floodgap.com> References: <201211052333.qA5NX1vr29819014@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <236118A3-DC3B-416C-966C-05669AF4B78C@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2012, at 6:33 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The SE/30 does not have 32-bit clean ROMs, so it cannot run System 7.6. > If you steal the ROM SIMM from those relatively rare IIsis that have one, > or those relatively rare IIfxs, that will make the SE/30 32-bit clean, and > thus able to boot 7.6. > > I am also told that PDS upgrades, such as an '040, will allow the SE/30 > to boot up to 8.1. That would make sense, since PDS upgrades usually include a ROM e.g. because the '040 MMU is very different from the '030 MMU. - Dave From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 09:04:35 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:04:35 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211061423.qA6ENMt230408864@floodgap.com> References: <201211061423.qA6ENMt230408864@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <00BC9E99-C525-46E0-A0A2-FADB37FFF11E@pocnet.net> Am 06.11.2012 um 15:23 schrieb Cameron Kaiser: >> DHCP is not a must-have. > > I don't use DHCP on my internal network either except a guest range > for > people who want to connect to the secured wired backbone (but most > of the > guests just use the WiFi on the network DMZ and never see the inside > network). So MacTCP suffices. Good to know, I'm now alone with my opinion. > That said, I don't have any more System 6 Macs, and the '040 I use > most > often (my clock-chipped Quadra 800) is usually in A/UX. That's great, yes. I've a spare Q650. I'll see if I can get A/UX to run on that, too. When I'm in the mood... :wq! PoC From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 09:53:33 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:53:33 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm not joining in the kickstarter because I already have a P112 I purchased as a bare PCB and loose SMD parts in the previous round. I just uncovered it last night moving some things around and started tossing build-parts into a bin to put it together. I do happen to have a couple of 32-pin JEDEC 512K SRAMs (originally for an SBC6120 RAM disk PCB that got destroyed in the mail), so I _can_ fully populate it, but it got me wondering... what CP/M software is out there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? I have a bit of experience with 48K-64K CP/M machines (mostly Kaypro, but some others), because back when I was using it, that was how much memory 8-bitters had. I didn't mess with them much after 1985, so if there was still any development on that platform, I didn't see it. So why *does* the P112 have 1MB of RAM? What's the space over 64K good for? Cheers, -ethan From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 6 09:57:01 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 09:57:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Schindler Patrik wrote: > DHCP is not a must-have. I'm running DNS on my Linux-Box in my LAN, so I > don't want to have dynamic IP addresses. There's only a small > DHCP-Range, just for "guest boxes", for netbooting XTerminals or my G5 > when I need to run Disk First Aid, for a fast installation of Debian on > friend's boxes. Any static (in terms of will-not-be-moved) machine has > static IP-Adresses configured. I don't get the point why machines, which > don't change networks (like a notebook, taken from place to place), need > DHCP. Avoiding IP collisions? Is a matter of documentation. For me, my > documentation is the DNS zone files. DHCP may not be a "must have", but for any machine, old or new, it can make it /much/ easier to manage a large number of systems and other network-enabled devices, especially if you move or swap systems and equipment out at random such as many of us do. For non-guest machines, I don't use a dynamic range of addresses, I use DHCP to assign static IP addresses for specific MAC addresses. When (not if) I reconfigure subnets, gateway addresses, hostnames, etc, I don't have to modify the configuration on dozens upon dozens of different machines. That said, ISC DHCP's configuration has a steep learning curve, but once you get it down, it is incredibly easy to modify or add to later (and yes, I run my own DNS, too). Another thing I found helpful is to run a separate test/sandbox network on 192.168.1.0/24 with parts of the range dynamically assigned. I then have some of my local network segments configured so that any connections to 192.168.1.x are NAT'd as 192.168.1.100 on this segment. This is incredibly useful because tons of networking gear comes preconfigured with static 192.168.1.x addresses, and in default configuration it won't talk to a machine that doesn't have a 192.168.1.x IP address. This setup allows me to plug something in, update/configure it, and then unplug and move it right over to the correct subnet (where DHCP usually then takes over). Just for the record, the machine I'm currently using for DHCP has 16 ethernet interfaces, although currently I'm only using 9 or so. My setup isn't typical, but really anyone could do something similar and scale it down or up as needed. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Nov 6 10:06:25 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:06:25 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, A decade or so back I visited a warehouse in Kerrville with a *lot* of classic computer gear. That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling off the collection. Her description of what is there includes: At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >I would like to arrange that on Saturday a group of interested people could >come up and go through all the antique stuff. There is Kaypro, HP, Apple, >Commodore, Radio Shack, DEC Rainbow, etc. I will have space available that >everyone can plug in what they want to, and test it before they leave with >it. I have a limited amt of software that can be used on each type of >machine. > >Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. ... >The Apple stuff alone occupies a room upstairs abt 10x10x6 feet stuffed full >of old computers, monitors, printers, software, disk and floppy drives, etc. >I have every Apple on the Wikipedia except the Apple I. I even have a Lisa! >Mac classic, all-in-ones, 128, 512, LCII, LCIII, and lots of others, >including old Mac servers. Prob have extra memory if needed, and lots of >spare parts for the Apple IIs. > >Also have IBM Microchannel machines and lots of spares. On the phone with me this morning, she added that there are waist-high Data General servers with 4 Pentium Pro's each, a lot of Sun equipment, IBM 5160's including one in the original box with matching printers and monitors, Apple posters and sales equipment from the Apple II era and forward, and much Apple software and boxes. Contact information and location are: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls the email address sales at elecplus.com also works. There is a website at http://www.elecshopper.com/ , but that website is not by any means complete in its coverage of what is there nor does it give an indication of the scale of the place. Cindy indicated that she would like to set up a classic-computer shopper's day on a Saturday, when the shop is not open to the general public. I'll recommend we coordinate on December 1, but she said she could meet by appointment at the warehouse on a different Saturday if needed, except that November 17 won't work. She said she had 10 workbenches with power, and was amenable to having people bring in diagnostic software to test equipment before they buy it. There is no loading dock, so if you acquire a Data General server or the like you'll have to figure out how to get it up into your pickup truck. She prefers cash or check. I still have a pile of pictures I took there which also don't give a true indication of the scale of the place, but will forward on request and they do show a lot of gear. I'm planning to make the December 1 trip, I think; hopefully I'll see you there. No connection except as a satisfied customer; questions welcome on-list or off, but I recommend on. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From shumaker at att.net Tue Nov 6 10:10:13 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:10:13 -0500 Subject: Ton of PDP-11 Stuff in West LA In-Reply-To: <201211061428.qA6EST5129622322@floodgap.com> References: <201211061428.qA6EST5129622322@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50993665.9010502@att.net> On 11/6/2012 9:28 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> My brother in law's estate has a lot of PTP11 stuff, hardware stuff, >>> manuals and literature. That stuff began to become obsolete and he >>> could get it for almost nothing at the swap meets and he would come >>> back with car loads of it. I am not a computer guy, I know nothing, I >>> >> CC folks, I just received this note from a Rufus Crosby whose >> recently passed brother in law has a ton of PDP-11 stuff in the West >> LA area, I am passing this on to you, feel free to contact Rufus at: >> RufusRufus at aol.com >> > Are others here in Sunny So Cal interested? Perhaps we can make an outing > of it. I'd be interested in any small PDP-11 systems. I'll contact him > myself later this week if no one else local seems piqued. > > I'm in SF Bay area but would come down and help if we could schedule it right. (would definitely be interested in a basic PDP setup of some sort!) Steve Shumaker Santa Cruz From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 10:38:46 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 11:38:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm not joining in the kickstarter because I already have a P112 I > purchased as a bare PCB and loose SMD parts in the previous round. I > just uncovered it last night moving some things around and started > tossing build-parts into a bin to put it together. I do happen to > have a couple of 32-pin JEDEC 512K SRAMs (originally for an SBC6120 > RAM disk PCB that got destroyed in the mail), so I _can_ fully > populate it, but it got me wondering... what CP/M software is out > there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? Years ago I was involved in development of a Z180/HD64180 coprocessor board for Apple 2 systems. By including a couple of minor hooks in the BIOS, we made it support the 180-specific Turbo Modula-2 compiler originally marketed for the Circuit Cellar SB180. Through an overlay mechanism you could use the extended memory as code space and run programs that would otherwise not fit in a 16-bit address space. I do not know if the P112 BIOS supports the extra entry points, but perhaps it wouldn't be a difficult mod. Alternately, you could write your own memory manager to fiddle the Z180 mapping registers and code in $language_of_your_choice. Aside from that, I suspect ramdisk is the most common usage. Steve -- From tingox at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 10:40:08 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:40:08 +0100 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If nobody else answers before that, I'll find out when I get mine and tell you (I don't know yet, but I will figure it out somehow). But, that depends on the Kickstsrr being successfull; we're halfway+ there - six more days to go. Come on, potential P112 owners - chip in now, before it's too late. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 11:18:17 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:18:17 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> On 11/06/2012 10:53 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm not joining in the kickstarter because I already have a P112 I > purchased as a bare PCB and loose SMD parts in the previous round. I > just uncovered it last night moving some things around and started > tossing build-parts into a bin to put it together. I do happen to > have a couple of 32-pin JEDEC 512K SRAMs (originally for an SBC6120 > RAM disk PCB that got destroyed in the mail), so I _can_ fully > populate it, but it got me wondering... what CP/M software is out > there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? Essentially none at the applcation level. The MPM and CPM+ OSs can map ram for processes that are resident. but the system still views ram as a 64K with page switching/mapping. It does make a super fast ramdisk though. For aps that did overlays like multiplan or multipass assemblers or compilers that is a huge speedup. Even with vanilla CP/M-80 (V2.x) it's possible to map the added ram as buffers for keyboard IO (circular buffers for interrupt io), BIOS itself can be in a new page (up to 64K) with all maner of extended features like large buffers without the high cost to the TPA. Things like tassk switching are possible where a sleeping app is loaded in a remote page and by keyboard command brought into action for use (handyman for the kaypro does this save for its in eprom in mapped space). I did do a S100 system that carried it to extremes (still CP/M-80) with mapped ram and multiple CPUs sharing common and private mapped space with a task manager overlay to get functional multitasking. Later I got a few Z280s and that part has a differnt MMU than the Z180. The Z180 MMU is near identical to the PDP11 MMU save for the bits for page protection and memory exception traps. At the extreme there is Uziunix that uses 32K of ram and maps applications to 32k pages up to whats available. Since unix (even uzi) is a multitasking system tasks loaded in remote pages get their timeslice and can communicate with other tasks or applications. All this is done using Z180 (P112) that has a 1MB address mapping system. > > I have a bit of experience with 48K-64K CP/M machines (mostly Kaypro, > but some others), because back when I was using it, that was how much > memory 8-bitters had. I didn't mess with them much after 1985, so if > there was still any development on that platform, I didn't see it. > > So why *does* the P112 have 1MB of RAM? What's the space over 64K good for? > > Cheers, > > -ethan In short anything a PDP-11 with MMU can do. (its a 16bit address machine too). See above..^ ;) Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 11:34:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:34:16 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Allison wrote: > On 11/06/2012 10:53 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ...what CP/M software is out >> there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? > > Essentially none at the applcation level. OK. That's what I thought from my limited understanding of CP/M, but I do appreciate the well-educated response. > It does make a super fast ramdisk though. For aps that did overlays > like multiplan or multipass assemblers or compilers that is a huge speedup. Sure. I've done that with a KT8A, 128K and a PDP-8... Lots of address-constrained systems have benefited from falling RAM prices by loading up 4x (or more) on the amount of RAM that user programs can see but that is still usable behind system calls/device driver access. > ...Things like tassk switching are possible Makes sense especially if you might want to, say, keep an editor session alive and switch over to something else (like a compiler) and back. > The Z180 MMU is near identical to the PDP11 > MMU save for the bits for page protection and memory exception traps. Interesting. I had no idea. I've done some very minor fiddling with the PDP-11 MMU under RT-11 (IIRC it involved some odd mapping twiddles with a 512x512 framebuffer card and a scatter-gather DMA engine). > At the extreme there is Uziunix that uses 32K of ram and maps applications > to 32k pages up to whats available. Since unix (even uzi) is a multitasking > system tasks loaded in remote pages get their timeslice and can communicate > with other tasks or applications. Sure. I get how someone might use 1MB on an 8-bitter with a pre-emptive multitasking system, but that's not what I think of when I think of CP/M 2.2 on a Z-80. > In short anything a PDP-11 with MMU can do. (its a 16bit address machine > too). If one is developing code, I do see numerous possibilities. I was more curious about being strictly a user and soaking up that much RAM outside of turning it into a RAM disk. It's not that I would never develop any code on CP/M, but it's far more likely I'd be grabbing stuff off the Walnut Creek CD-ROM or downloading things to run on it. Thanks for the excellent reply. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 12:00:42 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:00:42 -0200 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 References: <201211060040.qA60euCm30343398@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <61F23CD5A49240C2B812D86FB208CCA5@tababook> >> Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher > mushroom, mushroom! +1! From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 12:31:23 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:31:23 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> On 11/06/2012 12:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Allison wrote: >> On 11/06/2012 10:53 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> ...what CP/M software is out >>> there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? >> Essentially none at the applcation level. > OK. That's what I thought from my limited understanding of CP/M, but > I do appreciate the well-educated response. > >> It does make a super fast ramdisk though. For aps that did overlays >> like multiplan or multipass assemblers or compilers that is a huge speedup. > Sure. I've done that with a KT8A, 128K and a PDP-8... Lots of > address-constrained systems have benefited from falling RAM prices by > loading up 4x (or more) on the amount of RAM that user programs can > see but that is still usable behind system calls/device driver access. > >> ...Things like tassk switching are possible > Makes sense especially if you might want to, say, keep an editor > session alive and switch over to something else (like a compiler) and > back. > >> The Z180 MMU is near identical to the PDP11 >> MMU save for the bits for page protection and memory exception traps. > Interesting. I had no idea. I've done some very minor fiddling with > the PDP-11 MMU under RT-11 (IIRC it involved some odd mapping twiddles > with a 512x512 framebuffer card and a scatter-gather DMA engine). That should have been Z280 MMU not Z180. Between the two there is night and day for MMU ops in structure and programming. The Z280 does a scatter gather map like PDP11 MMU and the Z180 does a start page end page mapping. >> At the extreme there is Uziunix that uses 32K of ram and maps applications >> to 32k pages up to whats available. Since unix (even uzi) is a multitasking >> system tasks loaded in remote pages get their timeslice and can communicate >> with other tasks or applications. > Sure. I get how someone might use 1MB on an 8-bitter with a > pre-emptive multitasking system, but that's not what I think of when I > think of CP/M 2.2 on a Z-80. CP/M is a file system and the abstracted IO is in the BIOS, why not add to the bios a taskmanager that has an interrupt driven tasklist to run multiple CP/M spaces sharing the bios and BDOS(filesystem). Nothing says you cannot. >> In short anything a PDP-11 with MMU can do. (its a 16bit address machine >> too). > If one is developing code, I do see numerous possibilities. I was > more curious about being strictly a user and soaking up that much RAM > outside of turning it into a RAM disk. It's not that I would never > develop any code on CP/M, but it's far more likely I'd be grabbing > stuff off the Walnut Creek CD-ROM or downloading things to run on it. Therein lies the problem. CP/M80 was single user. CP/M+ or MPM added the multitask layer with what we call legacy compatibility (single 64K page mapping). IF DOS/8088 did not enter when it did then where we might have gone is still open. > Thanks for the excellent reply. CP/M is still useful and z180s are availeble to beyond 20mhz imagine a 20 or 33mhz Kaypro.. Allison > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 12:34:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:34:38 -0800 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5099583E.4060509@sydex.com> On 11/06/2012 09:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If one is developing code, I do see numerous possibilities. I was > more curious about being strictly a user and soaking up that much RAM > outside of turning it into a RAM disk. It's not that I would never > develop any code on CP/M, but it's far more likely I'd be grabbing > stuff off the Walnut Creek CD-ROM or downloading things to run on it. How about writing an 8086/5150 emulator? You need only 640K of base RAM to hold programs--that leaves a bunch for emulation... (Ducks the brickbats) --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 6 12:44:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:44:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <5099583E.4060509@sydex.com> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099583E.4060509@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/06/2012 09:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> If one is developing code, I do see numerous possibilities. I was >> more curious about being strictly a user and soaking up that much RAM >> outside of turning it into a RAM disk. It's not that I would never >> develop any code on CP/M, but it's far more likely I'd be grabbing >> stuff off the Walnut Creek CD-ROM or downloading things to run on it. > > How about writing an 8086/5150 emulator? You need only 640K of base RAM to > hold programs--that leaves a bunch for emulation... > > (Ducks the brickbats) > Psst. Here: http://www.brutman.com/Flea86/ :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 13:37:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:37:40 -0800 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099583E.4060509@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50996704.10709@sydex.com> On 11/06/2012 10:44 AM, geneb wrote: > Psst. Here: http://www.brutman.com/Flea86/ I had correspondence with Valentin when he was working on this thing. What with cheap 32-bit MCUs, I questioned his use of the high-speed 8052 platform. He seemed to use it "just because", so I don't see why a P112 couldn't do a similar emulation. But, one really has to ask, to what end? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 6 13:47:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 14:47:49 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <50996704.10709@sydex.com> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099583E.4060509@sydex.com> <50996704.10709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50996965.1010007@neurotica.com> On 11/06/2012 02:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Psst. Here: http://www.brutman.com/Flea86/ > > I had correspondence with Valentin when he was working on this thing. > What with cheap 32-bit MCUs, I questioned his use of the high-speed 8052 > platform. He seemed to use it "just because", so I don't see why a P112 > couldn't do a similar emulation. > > But, one really has to ask, to what end? Enjoyment? To hone one's skills? Because he CAN? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 6 13:50:42 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 11:50:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <50996704.10709@sydex.com> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099583E.4060509@sydex.com> <50996704.10709@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/06/2012 10:44 AM, geneb wrote: > >> Psst. Here: http://www.brutman.com/Flea86/ > > I had correspondence with Valentin when he was working on this thing. What > with cheap 32-bit MCUs, I questioned his use of the high-speed 8052 platform. > He seemed to use it "just because", so I don't see why a P112 couldn't do a > similar emulation. > > But, one really has to ask, to what end? > Because. No other reason is needed. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:03:48 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:03:48 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <201211060040.qA60euCm30343398@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6 November 2012 14:29, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 5 Nov 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Both of my SE/30's (32Mb RAM) with ethernet cards run OS 7.1 with OT. OS >>> 6 >>> is better for a regular 68000 SE and OS 7.6.1 or newer works best for me >>> on >>> an 040 Quadra or newer. >>> >>> OpenTransport is great for DHCP so you don't have to set up each machine >>> whith its own ip address, makes it easy for me to connect to another mac >>> or >>> my win2k server running Apple shares. Browsing the current WWW on a SE/30 >>> is >>> mostly a waste of time but FTP works fine. >> >> >> Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher Gopher > > > mushroom, mushroom! [*Chuckle*] -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Nov 6 15:12:24 2012 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:12:24 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> Mark, On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:06:25AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling off > the collection. Her description of what is there includes: > > At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > > >Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. Would you, or Cindy, mind if I cross-post this to the Hercules-390 list? The System 370 stuff could be of great interest to many Herculeans. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:20:11 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:20:11 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On 6 November 2012 13:41, Schindler Patrik wrote: > Hi, > > first, please apoplogize. I didn't and don't want to offend! It's just the > way I feel from years of practice. Oh no, not at all. I am enjoying the debate! > Am 06.11.2012 um 01:02 schrieb Liam Proven: > > >>> I'd disagree. It eats a LOT of RAM and CPU-Resources. And it takes WAY >>> longer to boot. 7.5.5 would be my choice on 040-machines. Even on my >>> IIfx, >>> I'm "only" running 7.1. >> >> >> I disagree in turn. Until it died of capacitor failure, I had my >> Classic II with 10MB of RAM and a 16MHz 68030 on a 16-bit bus running >> 6.0.8, 7.0.1, 7.5.5 and 7.6.1. >> >> With enough addons to make it a pleasant and productive environment, >> System 6 was not really significantly smaller or faster than 7.x, but >> it was a lot more limited. > > The definition of a "pleasant and productive environment" heavily depends on > personal taste. :-) I'm running only a few extensions on the SE and LC. With > the addidional 192K RAM Cache, this adds up to a 800KB System in RAM, with > MultiFinder, without Finder. Well, yes, that is true. But I started out on Macs in the very late days of System 6 & moved to System 7 within months. I am used to a clock in the menu bar, a hierarchical Apple menu, a modular control panel, a screen-saver, things like that. It is perfectly possible to add all this to Sys6 with some INITs and CDEVs - although it was tricky to find them when I did it, and that was 5-6y ago now. But once you have, I found it took as long to boot as 7.6.1 on my Classic II and was only very slightly more responsive in use. I must admit, I don't use any Macs slower than that. I have an LC2 but I mean just to fix it up & try to sell it. 68030 is as low as I want to go these days, I think. :) Certainly, I would run the lowest system version that did what I needed if I was on a 68000, so I agree with you there. >> I ran 7.6.1 from preference. Its performance was just fine, even on a >> machine below the official lowest spec the OS will support. By modern >> OS standards it is tiny and very simple and quick. > > Maybe it's reasonably quick when it's running but booting is painfully slow > on low end machines. Especially *with* extensions to provide a "pleasant and > productive environment". ;-) I didn't find it so, actually. The Classic II maxes out at 10MB of RAM; 7.6.1 recommends a minimum of 12MB. I did not expect it to work. It did, very well. Then I turned off virtual memory and added RAMdoubler. ;?) > Btw, modern standards: Are we talking of retrocomputing or are we talking to > squeeze the last bits out of old machines so they can be used like new ones? Well, not the latter, no. But I want to get stuff on and off the Mac as easily as possible, so I want it to be able to read and write PC floppies, maybe even PC Zip disks; I want it to at least be able to FTP stuff on and off my server, and once I have it running, so I want the best web browser it can run, even if it is not going to be used to surf. I think our attitudes differ on this. The 2 goals that I was trying to optimise my setup advice for were: #1 run the most modern software the machine can #2 run the software which will be easiest to get working If you instead are optimising for performance, or for an "authentic" 1980s Mac experience, then you will want something else, yes. > This also applies to your opinion about AppleTalk. AT is running fine in my > LAN. Several printers get their data via AppleTalk, many old machines > exchange data with AppleTalk. Broad Cast depends on AT. Program Linking > depends on AT (which I'm experimenting with the aid of the MPW shell). > My Linux Box runs Debian 6 with a Debian-supplied Netatalk 2, so exchange of > data is like a charm between all generations of Mac OS, from 6.0.7 up to > 10.5.8. Oh! Well that's good to know. I thought recent versions of Netatalk dropped Appletalk support and only ran AFS over TCP. > If if comes down to machines not equipped with Ethernet or Token Ring, > there's no other choice than running AppleTalk over LocalTalk. One may use > MacTCP or Open Transport to encap IP into AppleTalk packets, so still IP is > possible (with a maximum MTU of 576 Bytes). Aha! I use an Asant? EtherSCSI. If I can't have Ethernet and TCP/IP, I regard it as not being networked, these days. > I have a LaserJet 4ML which is network capable via LocalTalk *only*. How can > I print from my DOS-machine on this? Running Netware 3.12 in a VM, the print > job gets to a Netware queue, rerouted via capture-command. From there, ATPS > (Apple Talk Print Server) on Netware takes the job out of the queue and > forwards it to the printer via AppleTalk. Works like a charm! > > I have a LaserJet 5100, equipped with a Token Ring network card. How can I > print from my IIfx on this? HP Token Ring equipment doesn't talk AppleTalk. > I'm printing into a Netware queue via AppleTalk. From there, the pserver.nlm > takes the job and feeds it to the printer via IPX. Cunning! But probably more work than I would go to, I fear. > AppleTalk may be obsolete but not unusable in retro-environments. It's still > usable and is still a lot more easy than trying to make Sys 6 talk to an > AFP-Server via TCP/IP Port 548. Many protocols can co-exist on a LAN. :-) > I'm even running IPv6 on Token Ring. Recent Linux kernels can encap the > packets the right way. Wow! >> Yes, 6 does Appletalk, but Appletalk is really almost no use today and >> is no help in trying to get a classic Mac talking to modern machines >> for file transfer or anything. You *need* TCP/IP and the latest web >> browser you can find, just to have a chance of downloading anything - >> I used Netscape Navigator 4.0.4 or Communicator 4.6 or thereabouts. > > Debian 6 is the current stable Deb-distro, I'm running on an AMD box. Not > outdated - and still AT capable. OK, worth knowing. Thanks. > When it comes do download from the web, I'm either using telnet to use wget > on the linux box, or my G5 with Safari or Firefox which is way faster than a > slow CPU overloaded with IP and slow browser code. From there I can transfer > the stuff to the destination box. Via AppleTalk. OK. I like to see my old retro machines on the Web - it pleases me, and is reason enough to wait for slow downloads. :?) > You see, the extent of "you need TCP/IP" statement depends heavily on usage > scenarios. Well, true. I was thinking only of my own use, I confess. >>> There also >>> basic client apps for some services. Eudora, Fetch, Newswatcher, Ircle, >>> MacX... >> >> >> Again, not worth the bother in 2012. Effectively, Sys6 cannot do >> anything at all on the C21 Internet. > > There are still interesting Gopher sites and FTP Mirrors with old Mac stuff > to use. And there's stil use of NewsWatcher. But, see above, downloading > from old machines is painfully slow. If you want to have some kind of > hardware-QoS to not saturate your internet connection, it's the fun way to > go. :-) Even in 2012, there's more than just http in the Internet. :?) >> I want to /use/ my Macs. E.g. to write on them and then send the >> result over to my modern Linux PC for cleaning up, format conversion >> and submission to my editor or posting on one of my blogs or >> something. > > Me either. So we're basically talkin' 'bout the same. Let alone, the way of > usage seems to be different. Example: On my IIfx, I'm running Ircle, for > chatting on an internal IRC-Network with a lot of friends. I'm running > telnet to tail -f the system log of my linux box. I'm running MacX to see > what XLoad tells about the usage of my Linux box. I'm running Newswatcher to > read and answer interesting discussions in Mac centric usenet groups. I'm > running Peter Lewis' talk(d) applications for copypasting Web-URLs from and > to IRC or news articles, to watch on the G5. This is a very IP-centric > usage. Definitely, yes. But probably more work than I would bother to do. I am very impressed, though! > You may tell this usage as "mostly passive", which is true for most apps. > But if I need it, I'm also running PageMaker 5 or FreeHand 3.1 for > documentation use or drawing cirquit diagrams. But I use them preferred on > my 7500 with a "G3"-Card @400MHz. This box still has 7.6.1 and 0,5GB of RAM > - it runs like hell and the mentioned apps are really fun to use, because > there's seldom wasted waiting-for-the-computer-to-catch-up-time. [Nod] >> So you contradict me and then quote the line that agrees with your >> contradiction? Huh? > > Sorry. I should not try to make a senseful discussion when being tired. > Please apologize. No problem. I am in much the same position. I just started a new job -- indeed, a whole new career -- and it's very tiring. >>> System 7.5 upwards had OpenTransport. It's really bloat but if you own a >>> fast machine, it's worth the effort. >> >> This is exactly what I meant. OT is not bloat and it works more easily >> and usefully than MacTCP, which IIRC doesn't even understand DHCP. In >> other words, it too is rather useless today. > > DHCP is not a must-have. I'm running DNS on my Linux-Box in my LAN, so I > don't want to have dynamic IP addresses. There's only a small DHCP-Range, > just for "guest boxes", for netbooting XTerminals or my G5 when I need to > run Disk First Aid, for a fast installation of Debian on friend's boxes. Any > static (in terms of will-not-be-moved) machine has static IP-Adresses > configured. I don't get the point why machines, which don't change networks > (like a notebook, taken from place to place), need DHCP. Avoiding IP > collisions? Is a matter of documentation. For me, my documentation is the > DNS zone files. No, it's not a must-have, but it makes life a /lot/ easier. I like an easy life. > From CPU usage, OT *is* bloat, but as stated, on faster machines you win > throughput. On slower ones (< 040) you lose throughput *and* RAM. The only > win would be DHCP-capabilities and a more friendly config interface. Which > is not worth the effort *for me*. > > To conclude, I try to use most of my old machines as old machines, with > software which was more or less up to date when they were manufactured > and/or mostly used. Most of these are unmodified in terms of "no accelerator > boards". Just to get the real retro flash. ;-) This doesn't prevent them to > be useful or productive. As stated on top, it's a matter of taste what one > calls "being productive". So, please don't forcibly kill AppleTalk for > everyone by stating it's not useful (to you). It is but it's a question of > usage scenario. Don't tell OT is a general must-have. It just makes no sense > on slow machines. OK. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:54:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:54:55 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2012, at 4:20 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> With enough addons to make it a pleasant and productive environment, >>> System 6 was not really significantly smaller or faster than 7.x, but >>> it was a lot more limited. >> >> The definition of a "pleasant and productive environment" heavily depends on >> personal taste. :-) I'm running only a few extensions on the SE and LC. With >> the addidional 192K RAM Cache, this adds up to a 800KB System in RAM, with >> MultiFinder, without Finder. > > Well, yes, that is true. > > But I started out on Macs in the very late days of System 6 & moved to > System 7 within months. I am used to a clock in the menu bar, a > hierarchical Apple menu, a modular control panel, a screen-saver, > things like that. It is perfectly possible to add all this to Sys6 > with some INITs and CDEVs - although it was tricky to find them when I > did it, and that was 5-6y ago now. Ha! Screen savers. I remember After Dark; it was one of the most reliable ways to make your Mac unreliable. Some of the Now utils (clock in the menu bar, drop-down Apple Menu items) were quite handy before they were absorbed into the OS, and didn't really take all that many resources. > But once you have, I found it took as long to boot as 7.6.1 on my > Classic II and was only very slightly more responsive in use. I found 7.6 to be almost unbearably slow on my LCIII (which isn't actually a bad machine for an '030), whereas 7.5.3 ran quite comfortably faster. That was with 20 MB RAM, which is rather much for either; forget running 7.6 on 4 MB. > I must admit, I don't use any Macs slower than that. I have an LC2 but > I mean just to fix it up & try to sell it. 68030 is as low as I want > to go these days, I think. :) Well, and the LCII was a dog. If you do a side-by-side comparison of the board layout with the original LC, you'll see that it's nearly identical (down to the crippling 16-bit bus) except that the '020 has been replaced with an '030. The LCIII was what that machine SHOULD have been. > Certainly, I would run the lowest system version that did what I > needed if I was on a 68000, so I agree with you there. System 7 works on my SE (4 MB RAM) for a number of things, including quite a few games, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for things like MacTCP. I have a switch to choose between 7.0.1 and 6.0.8 (if you don't have it already, System Switcher is a REALLY handy util). >>> I ran 7.6.1 from preference. Its performance was just fine, even on a >>> machine below the official lowest spec the OS will support. By modern >>> OS standards it is tiny and very simple and quick. >> >> Maybe it's reasonably quick when it's running but booting is painfully slow >> on low end machines. Especially *with* extensions to provide a "pleasant and >> productive environment". ;-) > > I didn't find it so, actually. The Classic II maxes out at 10MB of > RAM; 7.6.1 recommends a minimum of 12MB. I did not expect it to work. > It did, very well. I think 7.6 is the absolute best OS to run on a PowerPC. I haven't run it on an '040 any time recently, though I imagine it would be acceptable, but I see very few downsides vs. running 7.5.x on a 68K machine. For what it's worth, I feel like the Mac OS peaked at 7.6, and it's all been (non-monotonically) downhill from there. I feel like there was another local maximum at 10.4 (and another somewhat lower one at 10.6), but it's kind of apples vs. oranges at that point. >> Btw, modern standards: Are we talking of retrocomputing or are we talking to >> squeeze the last bits out of old machines so they can be used like new ones? > > Well, not the latter, no. But I want to get stuff on and off the Mac > as easily as possible, so I want it to be able to read and write PC > floppies, maybe even PC Zip disks; I want it to at least be able to > FTP stuff on and off my server, and once I have it running, so I want > the best web browser it can run, even if it is not going to be used to > surf. You may find running Netatalk 2.x on your server alongside FTP to be a MUCH more pleasant way to transfer files. FTP works, more or less, but it trashes resource forks and just isn't as nice to work with, even with a nice client like Fetch. I can't even think about running a web browser on pre-OSX Macs at this point, though Classilla is tempting (though not available for System 7, right?). > I think our attitudes differ on this. > > The 2 goals that I was trying to optimise my setup advice for were: > > #1 run the most modern software the machine can > #2 run the software which will be easiest to get working #1 wasn't the best idea even when the machines were in their primes. If I had the desk space to run my 7300 as an everyday machine (and were willing to put up with the whine of its absurdly loud Barracuda next to me all day), I think I'd demote it from the 9.1 I'd upgraded to by the time I stopped using it to somewhere around 8.1 (with 7.6 as an option). I just feel robbed of performance (and stability) with the newest stuff that will run on it. Ditto goes for OS X machines; my MDD G4 runs twice as fast with the first version of Tiger on it as it does with the last version, which is appalling. >> This also applies to your opinion about AppleTalk. AT is running fine in my >> LAN. Several printers get their data via AppleTalk, many old machines >> exchange data with AppleTalk. Broad Cast depends on AT. Program Linking >> depends on AT (which I'm experimenting with the aid of the MPW shell). >> My Linux Box runs Debian 6 with a Debian-supplied Netatalk 2, so exchange of >> data is like a charm between all generations of Mac OS, from 6.0.7 up to >> 10.5.8. > > Oh! Well that's good to know. I thought recent versions of Netatalk > dropped Appletalk support and only ran AFS over TCP. 3.x did, yes, but 2.2.x is still maintained until they finally decide to drop support for it. It's still readily available from most package managers. >> If if comes down to machines not equipped with Ethernet or Token Ring, >> there's no other choice than running AppleTalk over LocalTalk. One may use >> MacTCP or Open Transport to encap IP into AppleTalk packets, so still IP is >> possible (with a maximum MTU of 576 Bytes). > > Aha! I use an Asant? EtherSCSI. If I can't have Ethernet and TCP/IP, I > regard it as not being networked, these days. Ha! I ran one of those on my SE a long time ago (I managed to find an SE Ethernet card a while back, though, which solved the problem rather better). I have an Asant? Ethernet-to- LocalTalk bridge that someone gave me with a LocalTalk-only printer, but it's not entirely satisfactory (in particular, it's weird about enumerating the LocalTalk side). I'm almost of a mind to build a bridge of my own with a small Ethernet- capable micro and an external 8530, but I keep making my queue longer with other projects. :-\ >> DHCP is not a must-have. I'm running DNS on my Linux-Box in my LAN, so I >> don't want to have dynamic IP addresses. There's only a small DHCP-Range, >> just for "guest boxes", for netbooting XTerminals or my G5 when I need to >> run Disk First Aid, for a fast installation of Debian on friend's boxes. Any >> static (in terms of will-not-be-moved) machine has static IP-Adresses >> configured. I don't get the point why machines, which don't change networks >> (like a notebook, taken from place to place), need DHCP. Avoiding IP >> collisions? Is a matter of documentation. For me, my documentation is the >> DNS zone files. > > No, it's not a must-have, but it makes life a /lot/ easier. I like an easy life. It's subjective, of course; DHCP is great (and some things don't work so well without it; for example, I can't browse my Windows machines' SMB shares if I give them static IPs for some reason), but there are a lot of things I'd rather run static. Old machines fall into that category, because it also makes it a lot easier to do a tcpdump to see what they're trying to do when they're not working. :-) - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 6 16:03:05 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Nov 6, 12 04:54:55 pm" Message-ID: <201211062203.qA6M350624576008@floodgap.com> > I can't even think about running a web browser on pre-OSX Macs at > this point, though Classilla is tempting (though not available for > System 7, right?). No, because it relies on the Unicode conversion libraries that weren't introduced until Mac OS 8.5. However, it will run on 8.5+ (8.6 or 9.1+ strongly advised). OS 9, and to a lesser extent 8.6/8.1, are definitely less efficient than System 7. However, I'm so accustomed to their niceties that I run 9.1 even on machines capable of running 7, particularly if it has a G3. If I were still using the stock processor, I'd probably reconsider, but almost none of my regular-use classic Power Macs use a 60x processor anymore. And, of course, with the New World Macs you have really no choice but OS 8 and up. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We make up horrors to help us cope with the real ones. -- Stephen King ----- From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:06:57 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:06:57 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: Sounds like a fun day for localish collectors to get together. So she's getting out all together? Do you recall how things are priced or does she have a price list on some of the vintage gear? I see they have a complete/working 5150 but $650 for the website price tag is pretty high. Either way, I'd probably be up for a trip if the spousal unit approves. Hm crap.. I'll technically be on call that weekend but I can probably still swing it. Is there an offline coordination effort or we can keep it on the list if it's topical for folks who might want to go. I'm in Kyle, TX (Think just South of Austin). Be cool to meet some other local collectors and learn who has what interests too. I know a few but don't see them much on this list. If you or she has some pictures of the vintage stuff I'd love to see what's there just to gauge things a bit. Not sure what I'd be searching for out there, I love Commodore/Amiga but also like other one off home computers (generally my collection focuses on the home computer market). - John From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Nov 6 16:09:01 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 23:09:01 +0100 Subject: Bunnie's "Name that ware" Message-ID: <50998A7D.8030803@update.uu.se> Bunnie has a monthly competition to identify various bits of electronics. The September competition went unsolved. It looks retro, anybody here know what it is? http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2554 /P From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:09:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:09:51 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > I think 7.6 is the absolute best OS to run on a PowerPC. I haven't > run it on an '040 any time recently, though I imagine it would be > acceptable, but I see very few downsides vs. running 7.5.x on a 68K > machine. In the mid-1990, I ran a bunch of Macs at work. Our low-end was the IIci, our high end was a Quadra 950 and one PowerMac 8100av. All had Ethernet adapters and connected to external resources via TCP/IP (we used Apple protocols for locally sharing files and hitting printers). ISTR running 7.5.1 on the IIci boxes. I don't recall what was on the PowerMac (it was purchased some time in 1994 and probably not upgraded after that, if that helps). > For what it's worth, I feel like the Mac OS peaked at 7.6, and it's > all been (non-monotonically) downhill from there. I feel like there > was another local maximum at 10.4 (and another somewhat lower one > at 10.6), but it's kind of apples vs. oranges at that point. Interesting observation. I stopped working with Macs during the 8.x and 9.x eras and only picked them up again around 10.2 or so. I've noodled around for a small number of hours on 9.something and I have a *lot* of time on 10.3 and 10.4. What was so bad about 8.x or 9.x? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 16:11:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:11:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> > ...what CP/M software is out > there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? Many many years ago, John Henderson, who ran Tall Tree Systems came by myComputer Faire booth and asked me if I had ever written any software thatused lots of RAM. I assumed that he was asking about qualifications for some project. I struggled to understand what he wanted to commission. Eventually, we got it straight that he was not looking for ANYTHING specific, he just wanted to promote RAM hungry systems, because he was designing MB and LARGER! RAM cards for 5150 ("JRAM"). What he wascreating was a system for "Expanded Memory", long before Lotus, Intel, Microsoft "standardized" it. He was apparently not invited to be part of that, in spite of being the primary such product actually ON THE MARKET, but he provided LIM support right afterwards. He came up with a Canon CX engine rasterizer add-on for his RAM cards, called JLASER. At that time Tthe HP LaserJet- (HP preferred to call them "LaserJet CLASSIC", rather than "MINUS"),and LaserJet+ were essentially text only, with 256K of RAM. Then he added [Canon IX?] scanner support with JLASER+ He came up with a way to use lots of RAM. Could a similar system be hacked together for CP/M? (He also wrote JFORMAT, which created disks for PC with 10 (instead of 9) 512 byte sectors per track, ability to use 96tpi "quad" drives, and ignoring the manufacturers warnings, to use 41 or even 42 tracks on 40 track drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:19:47 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 22:19:47 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6 November 2012 21:54, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 6, 2012, at 4:20 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>>> With enough addons to make it a pleasant and productive environment, >>>> System 6 was not really significantly smaller or faster than 7.x, but >>>> it was a lot more limited. >>> >>> The definition of a "pleasant and productive environment" heavily depends on >>> personal taste. :-) I'm running only a few extensions on the SE and LC. With >>> the addidional 192K RAM Cache, this adds up to a 800KB System in RAM, with >>> MultiFinder, without Finder. >> >> Well, yes, that is true. >> >> But I started out on Macs in the very late days of System 6 & moved to >> System 7 within months. I am used to a clock in the menu bar, a >> hierarchical Apple menu, a modular control panel, a screen-saver, >> things like that. It is perfectly possible to add all this to Sys6 >> with some INITs and CDEVs - although it was tricky to find them when I >> did it, and that was 5-6y ago now. > > Ha! Screen savers. I remember After Dark; it was one of the most > reliable ways to make your Mac unreliable. Interesting. Never noticed that, back in the day, and it was so popular it was near-ubiquitous. > Some of the Now utils > (clock in the menu bar, drop-down Apple Menu items) were quite > handy before they were absorbed into the OS, and didn't really > take all that many resources. I forget whose or what I used. I don't think they were anything to do with NUTD, if that's the Now you meant? >> But once you have, I found it took as long to boot as 7.6.1 on my >> Classic II and was only very slightly more responsive in use. > > I found 7.6 to be almost unbearably slow on my LCIII (which isn't > actually a bad machine for an '030), whereas 7.5.3 ran quite > comfortably faster. That was with 20 MB RAM, which is rather > much for either; forget running 7.6 on 4 MB. Mileage varying a /lot/ here. Until I flogged it a couple of months ago for a very healthy ?45 or so, I ran 8.1 on mine. I found that just fine. >> I must admit, I don't use any Macs slower than that. I have an LC2 but >> I mean just to fix it up & try to sell it. 68030 is as low as I want >> to go these days, I think. :) > > Well, and the LCII was a dog. If you do a side-by-side comparison > of the board layout with the original LC, you'll see that it's > nearly identical (down to the crippling 16-bit bus) except that the > '020 has been replaced with an '030. The LCIII was what that > machine SHOULD have been. [Nod] >> Certainly, I would run the lowest system version that did what I >> needed if I was on a 68000, so I agree with you there. > > System 7 works on my SE (4 MB RAM) for a number of things, including > quite a few games, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for things like > MacTCP. I have a switch to choose between 7.0.1 and 6.0.8 (if you > don't have it already, System Switcher is a REALLY handy util). I just attach multiple SCSI drives. :?) It's not like you need very big ones! >>>> I ran 7.6.1 from preference. Its performance was just fine, even on a >>>> machine below the official lowest spec the OS will support. By modern >>>> OS standards it is tiny and very simple and quick. >>> >>> Maybe it's reasonably quick when it's running but booting is painfully slow >>> on low end machines. Especially *with* extensions to provide a "pleasant and >>> productive environment". ;-) >> >> I didn't find it so, actually. The Classic II maxes out at 10MB of >> RAM; 7.6.1 recommends a minimum of 12MB. I did not expect it to work. >> It did, very well. > > I think 7.6 is the absolute best OS to run on a PowerPC. I haven't > run it on an '040 any time recently, though I imagine it would be > acceptable, but I see very few downsides vs. running 7.5.x on a 68K > machine. Could not disagree more. I run/ran my PPCs on 9.1 or 9.2.2 if they can take it, as a rule. > For what it's worth, I feel like the Mac OS peaked at 7.6, and it's > all been (non-monotonically) downhill from there. Again, I disagree. 7.6 is the best OS for 68030s, but for 68040s I much value the facilities of 8.1 - pop-up folders, drawers (damned near essential on smaller screens), HFS+ for bigger disks and so on. I also think the 8.1 Finder looks better. > I feel like there > was another local maximum at 10.4 (and another somewhat lower one > at 10.6), but it's kind of apples vs. oranges at that point. I miss Classic mode, but I find the facilities of Leopard - Spaces, for instance - so very useful that I have pretty much abandoned Tiger now. Concur about 10.6, though. >>> Btw, modern standards: Are we talking of retrocomputing or are we talking to >>> squeeze the last bits out of old machines so they can be used like new ones? >> >> Well, not the latter, no. But I want to get stuff on and off the Mac >> as easily as possible, so I want it to be able to read and write PC >> floppies, maybe even PC Zip disks; I want it to at least be able to >> FTP stuff on and off my server, and once I have it running, so I want >> the best web browser it can run, even if it is not going to be used to >> surf. > > You may find running Netatalk 2.x on your server alongside FTP to be > a MUCH more pleasant way to transfer files. That'll be tricky, it runs Windows Server 2008. :?D > FTP works, more or less, > but it trashes resource forks and just isn't as nice to work with, > even with a nice client like Fetch. I move binaries around inside Zips or Sits. For text files or Word docs, it doesn't matter too much. > I can't even think about running a web browser on pre-OSX Macs at > this point, though Classilla is tempting (though not available for > System 7, right?). > >> I think our attitudes differ on this. >> >> The 2 goals that I was trying to optimise my setup advice for were: >> >> #1 run the most modern software the machine can >> #2 run the software which will be easiest to get working > > #1 wasn't the best idea even when the machines were in their primes. > If I had the desk space to run my 7300 as an everyday machine (and > were willing to put up with the whine of its absurdly loud Barracuda > next to me all day), I think I'd demote it from the 9.1 I'd upgraded > to by the time I stopped using it to somewhere around 8.1 (with 7.6 > as an option). I just feel robbed of performance (and stability) > with the newest stuff that will run on it. Whereas IKWYM in general terms, I actually liked MacOS 9. Anything that can run 8.6 can run 9.1 acceptably and I find it preferable. > Ditto goes for OS X > machines; my MDD G4 runs twice as fast with the first version of > Tiger on it as it does with the last version, which is appalling. As in, 10.4.0 versus 10.4.11? I noticed no difference. Never really have with point-releases. 10.4 feels slower than 10.3 & I am toying with downgrading my B&W G3-with-a-G4-in-it to Panther, just for nostalgia. I have no need for Dashboard and I don't /really/ need Spotlight. 10.5 might be slower than 10.4 but the extra facilities are worth it. >>> This also applies to your opinion about AppleTalk. AT is running fine in my >>> LAN. Several printers get their data via AppleTalk, many old machines >>> exchange data with AppleTalk. Broad Cast depends on AT. Program Linking >>> depends on AT (which I'm experimenting with the aid of the MPW shell). >>> My Linux Box runs Debian 6 with a Debian-supplied Netatalk 2, so exchange of >>> data is like a charm between all generations of Mac OS, from 6.0.7 up to >>> 10.5.8. >> >> Oh! Well that's good to know. I thought recent versions of Netatalk >> dropped Appletalk support and only ran AFS over TCP. > > 3.x did, yes, but 2.2.x is still maintained until they finally > decide to drop support for it. It's still readily available > from most package managers. OIC. So I wasn't totally wrong. That's good. :?) >>> If if comes down to machines not equipped with Ethernet or Token Ring, >>> there's no other choice than running AppleTalk over LocalTalk. One may use >>> MacTCP or Open Transport to encap IP into AppleTalk packets, so still IP is >>> possible (with a maximum MTU of 576 Bytes). >> >> Aha! I use an Asant? EtherSCSI. If I can't have Ethernet and TCP/IP, I >> regard it as not being networked, these days. > > Ha! I ran one of those on my SE a long time ago (I managed to > find an SE Ethernet card a while back, though, which solved > the problem rather better). I have an Asant? Ethernet-to- > LocalTalk bridge that someone gave me with a LocalTalk-only > printer, but it's not entirely satisfactory (in particular, > it's weird about enumerating the LocalTalk side). I'm almost > of a mind to build a bridge of my own with a small Ethernet- > capable micro and an external 8530, but I keep making my > queue longer with other projects. :-\ If I can persuade or bribe Tony into fixing my SE/30, I shall be looking for an Ethernet board. And an external-monitor adaptor, lots of RAM and AU/X. ;?) >>> DHCP is not a must-have. I'm running DNS on my Linux-Box in my LAN, so I >>> don't want to have dynamic IP addresses. There's only a small DHCP-Range, >>> just for "guest boxes", for netbooting XTerminals or my G5 when I need to >>> run Disk First Aid, for a fast installation of Debian on friend's boxes. Any >>> static (in terms of will-not-be-moved) machine has static IP-Adresses >>> configured. I don't get the point why machines, which don't change networks >>> (like a notebook, taken from place to place), need DHCP. Avoiding IP >>> collisions? Is a matter of documentation. For me, my documentation is the >>> DNS zone files. >> >> No, it's not a must-have, but it makes life a /lot/ easier. I like an easy life. > > It's subjective, of course; DHCP is great (and some things don't > work so well without it; for example, I can't browse my Windows > machines' SMB shares if I give them static IPs for some reason), > but there are a lot of things I'd rather run static. Old > machines fall into that category, because it also makes it a lot > easier to do a tcpdump to see what they're trying to do when > they're not working. :-) Life's too short for that sort of thing, for me. I am only doing this for fun. I find it an excellent, generally-applicable rule of thumb that anything involving hexadecimal is not fun. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:20:56 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 22:20:56 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211062203.qA6M350624576008@floodgap.com> References: <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> <201211062203.qA6M350624576008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6 November 2012 22:03, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I can't even think about running a web browser on pre-OSX Macs at >> this point, though Classilla is tempting (though not available for >> System 7, right?). > > No, because it relies on the Unicode conversion libraries that weren't > introduced until Mac OS 8.5. However, it will run on 8.5+ (8.6 or 9.1+ > strongly advised). > > OS 9, and to a lesser extent 8.6/8.1, are definitely less efficient than > System 7. However, I'm so accustomed to their niceties that I run 9.1 > even on machines capable of running 7, particularly if it has a G3. Concur. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wackyvorlon at me.com Tue Nov 6 16:39:57 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:39:57 -0500 Subject: Bunnie's "Name that ware" In-Reply-To: <50998A7D.8030803@update.uu.se> References: <50998A7D.8030803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <72B6ACCB-440B-4C35-A229-4296B98DDBCE@me.com> Looks like boards from an old keypunch machine. I have some kicking around that are almost identical. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-11-06, at 5:09 PM, Pontus wrote: > Bunnie has a monthly competition to identify various bits of electronics. The September competition went unsolved. > > It looks retro, anybody here know what it is? > > http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2554 > > /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 6 16:56:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:56:12 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> On 11/06/2012 05:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > He came up with a Canon CX engine rasterizer add-on for his > RAM cards, called JLASER. At that time Tthe HP LaserJet- > (HP preferred to call them "LaserJet CLASSIC", rather than > "MINUS"),and LaserJet+ were essentially text only, with 256K of RAM. > Then he added [Canon IX?] scanner support with JLASER+ I've used the JLASER card. It was really quite nice. QMS made a similar device, an ISA board which turned LaserJets into PostScript printers, using the direct video interface slot. > He came up with a way to use lots of RAM. > Could a similar system be hacked together for CP/M? I don't see why not. I wouldn't want to try to write a PostScript interpreter on an 8-bitter, though. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:59:36 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:59:36 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79909265-CF9B-4A45-91A6-68364BB51C38@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Some of the Now utils >> (clock in the menu bar, drop-down Apple Menu items) were quite >> handy before they were absorbed into the OS, and didn't really >> take all that many resources. > > I forget whose or what I used. I don't think they were anything to do > with NUTD, if that's the Now you meant? Same company. They had a utilities package which I think Apple ended up buying outright to do all the things you take for granted in later versions of System 7 and further (like the menu bar clock, or hierarchical menus in the Apple Menu). >> System 7 works on my SE (4 MB RAM) for a number of things, including >> quite a few games, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for things like >> MacTCP. I have a switch to choose between 7.0.1 and 6.0.8 (if you >> don't have it already, System Switcher is a REALLY handy util). > > I just attach multiple SCSI drives. :?) It's not like you need very big ones! Handy if you've got them. I don't, and I don't have the money to go about grabbing more, so System Switcher is quite nice (also makes for a nice setup on an all-in-one like the SE). >> I think 7.6 is the absolute best OS to run on a PowerPC. I haven't >> run it on an '040 any time recently, though I imagine it would be >> acceptable, but I see very few downsides vs. running 7.5.x on a 68K >> machine. > > Could not disagree more. I run/ran my PPCs on 9.1 or 9.2.2 if they can > take it, as a rule. It's a matter of personal preference, I imagine. >> For what it's worth, I feel like the Mac OS peaked at 7.6, and it's >> all been (non-monotonically) downhill from there. > > Again, I disagree. 7.6 is the best OS for 68030s, but for 68040s I > much value the facilities of 8.1 - pop-up folders, drawers (damned > near essential on smaller screens), HFS+ for bigger disks and so on. I > also think the 8.1 Finder looks better. I would love to have 7.6 with HFS+. I never really cared for the new look of OS 8; I liked the crisp look of 7.x. Not everyone is likely to agree, obviously, and I wouldn't assert that it was the *only* way to go (unless you were me, which you're not). Cameron also pointed out the improved Unicode support in later versions, which I had forgotten. That can be rather important, depending on what you're trying to do. >> I feel like there >> was another local maximum at 10.4 (and another somewhat lower one >> at 10.6), but it's kind of apples vs. oranges at that point. > > I miss Classic mode, but I find the facilities of Leopard - Spaces, > for instance - so very useful that I have pretty much abandoned Tiger > now. Again, personal preference; I never had a use for Expos? or Spaces, the equivalent of which had been available to me for years under Linux. I'm a corner case in a lot of ways, though; I always used command-tab and ran everything at full screen. >> You may find running Netatalk 2.x on your server alongside FTP to be >> a MUCH more pleasant way to transfer files. > > That'll be tricky, it runs Windows Server 2008. :?D Ah, well, there's that. There used to be an AppleTalk package for Windows, and it might still be maintained, but it was commercial and expensive. >> FTP works, more or less, >> but it trashes resource forks and just isn't as nice to work with, >> even with a nice client like Fetch. > > I move binaries around inside Zips or Sits. For text files or Word > docs, it doesn't matter too much. Sure. It's nice to not have to (for example, when doing NetBSD kernel development for my LCIII, I have the LCIII Finder attach to an AppleShare partition (hosted on my cross-compile Linux machine) on boot and load the kernel from there. Nothing to do with resource forks, but it cuts quite a bit of overhead from test-swear-compile-reboot cycle. >> Ditto goes for OS X >> machines; my MDD G4 runs twice as fast with the first version of >> Tiger on it as it does with the last version, which is appalling. > > As in, 10.4.0 versus 10.4.11? I noticed no difference. Never really > have with point-releases. Gradually, no. Try 'em side-by-side and you might notice. >>> Oh! Well that's good to know. I thought recent versions of Netatalk >>> dropped Appletalk support and only ran AFS over TCP. >> >> 3.x did, yes, but 2.2.x is still maintained until they finally >> decide to drop support for it. It's still readily available >> from most package managers. > > OIC. So I wasn't totally wrong. That's good. :?) I was sad to see it go, but Frank Lahm pointed out that the last maintainers that understood AppleTalk were long-gone from the project and no one had stepped up to take their place, and the demand just wasn't there. I'm inclined to believe him, since I fixed a bug in the NetBSD AppleTalk stack that kept it from working that had been there for at least a year without anyone noticing. >> Ha! I ran one of those on my SE a long time ago (I managed to >> find an SE Ethernet card a while back, though, which solved >> the problem rather better). I have an Asant? Ethernet-to- >> LocalTalk bridge that someone gave me with a LocalTalk-only >> printer, but it's not entirely satisfactory (in particular, >> it's weird about enumerating the LocalTalk side). I'm almost >> of a mind to build a bridge of my own with a small Ethernet- >> capable micro and an external 8530, but I keep making my >> queue longer with other projects. :-\ > > If I can persuade or bribe Tony into fixing my SE/30, I shall be > looking for an Ethernet board. And an external-monitor adaptor, lots > of RAM and AU/X. ;?) The Ethernet cards are easy enough to get, at least over here. The SE/30 shared a PDS with the IIsi, so they're a little more common. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 17:15:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've used the JLASER card. It was really quite nice. QMS made a > similar device, There were, eventually, quite a few. I used the Corona/Cordata. and the JLASER and the Eiconscript (Postscript compatible and/or PCL) I had a switchbox at the input of my printer. > > He came up with a way to use lots of RAM. > > Could a similar system be hacked together for CP/M? > I don't see why not. I wouldn't want to try to write a PostScript > interpreter on an 8-bitter, though. ;) Ah, yes. I wrote some raw postscript, and when running on "Freedom of Press" software postscript emulator (at BPS, who were printing my Comdex sign), learned the performance consequences of an undersized stack. I had hoped to use a bold black outline around letters filled in with an iterating radiating color vectors, with lots of fantastic Moire patterns) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 6 17:23:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:23:58 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50999C0E.8030109@neurotica.com> On 11/06/2012 06:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I've used the JLASER card. It was really quite nice. QMS made a >> similar device, > There were, eventually, quite a few. I used the Corona/Cordata. > and the JLASER > and the Eiconscript (Postscript compatible and/or PCL) > I had a switchbox at the input of my printer. Neat! I didn't know there were others. >>> He came up with a way to use lots of RAM. >>> Could a similar system be hacked together for CP/M? >> I don't see why not. I wouldn't want to try to write a PostScript >> interpreter on an 8-bitter, though. ;) > > Ah, yes. I wrote some raw postscript, and when running on "Freedom of > Press" software postscript emulator (at BPS, who were printing my Comdex > sign), learned the performance consequences of an undersized stack. > I had hoped to use a bold black outline around letters filled in with an > iterating radiating color vectors, with lots of fantastic Moire patterns) Postscript really is a wonderful thing. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 17:26:07 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:26:07 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50999C8F.5000303@verizon.net> On 11/06/2012 06:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I've used the JLASER card. It was really quite nice. QMS made a >> similar device, > There were, eventually, quite a few. I used the Corona/Cordata. > and the JLASER > and the Eiconscript (Postscript compatible and/or PCL) > I had a switchbox at the input of my printer. > >>> He came up with a way to use lots of RAM. >>> Could a similar system be hacked together for CP/M? >> I don't see why not. I wouldn't want to try to write a PostScript >> interpreter on an 8-bitter, though. ;) If can be done but painfully slow. However the base language is done just start with FORTH and add the graphic primitives. However ram is definitely an issue or you get page too complex failures. > Ah, yes. I wrote some raw postscript, and when running on "Freedom of > Press" software postscript emulator (at BPS, who were printing my Comdex > sign), learned the performance consequences of an undersized stack. > I had hoped to use a bold black outline around letters filled in with an > iterating radiating color vectors, with lots of fantastic Moire patterns) Its a matter of speed and available ram to manage for data. Postscript looks very much like and works like FORTH, the graphic operator add to it but the base language is still a stack language. So when you put a graphic object on the stack there better be room. Allison > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From commodorejohn at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 12:46:41 2012 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:46:41 -0600 Subject: Ton of PDP-11 Stuff in West LA Message-ID: I'm nowhere in the area, but would it be possible for me to put down my interest in the following? * A spare BA-23 or BA-123 enclosure * Any micro-form factor VAX, if one should turn up From sales at elecplus.com Tue Nov 6 13:51:12 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:51:12 -0600 Subject: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory Message-ID: <00a401cdbc58$12e25860$38a70920$@com> The IBM System 370 software is an error. There are a hundred or more 8" floppy diskettes, some in "magazines" that were used as backups on a System 36. Occupies about 5 legal-size paper boxes. There does not appear to be any original software. AT&T 3B2 software and documentation, 2 legal size paper boxes, much of the documentation is still sealed. Sorry, I do not have any more of the 3B2 machines. Large qty of 360K and 1.2MB floppy drives, and 360kb new blank diskettes in 10-packs. TI 99/4A, 1 still in original box, several out of box, extra AC adapters, small amt of software. Commodore 64, 1 still in box, several out of box, couple of disk drives, etc. Bring software to test. LOTS of color and mono 9-pin monitors, a few still new in box. LOTS of dumb terminals, some kbds. A few Atari game systems, extra AC adapters, etc. Bring games to test. ISA and PCI cards, thousands of them, plus "newer" AGP video cards. Several boxes of CPU chips, from 80386 and 80387 thru P4. Motherboards, new and used, from 386 to Quad core P4. Thousands of cables, etc. Over 10,000 square feet to look through, I look forward to seeing you! Email inquiries welcome. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Nov 6 15:09:29 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 21:09:29 +0000 (WET) Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Message-ID: <01OMBEN1VSRM0000G2@beyondthepale.ie> >All, > A decade or so back I visited a warehouse in Kerrville with a >*lot* of classic computer gear. That warehouse is now closing, and >Cindy, the proprietor, is selling off the collection. Her description >of what is there includes: > >At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>I would like to arrange that on Saturday a group of interested people could >>come up and go through all the antique stuff. There is Kaypro, HP, Apple, >>Commodore, Radio Shack, DEC Rainbow, etc. I will have space available that >>everyone can plug in what they want to, and test it before they leave with >>it. I have a limited amt of software that can be used on each type of >>machine. >> >>Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. > > I enquired by email about the System 370 software and documentation. I was told first that some of the boxes actually said "System 36" on them. I was then told that The "software" seems to consist of large qty of 8" floppy disks that someone used for backups and that there are also "magazines" that hold maybe 10 of the 8" diskettes each and that there does not seem to be any original operating software or programs. I was also told that there are 2 boxes, abt 20 pounds, that contains full operating manuals and possibly the software for AT&T 3B2 system. It doesn't sound likely to me that there is any 370 material there. (I'm not complaining, I'm just passing on what I was told for the information of others who might be interested.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From phil at ultimate.com Tue Nov 6 17:19:48 2012 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 18:19:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <201211062319.qA6NJmgI071317@ultimate.com> Schindler Patrik wrote: > For MacTCP, you'll have to switch to Ether*net*, not Ether*talk*. > Ethernet is the native encapsulation type on Ethernet. (EtherTalk, > LocalTalk, TokenTalk will encap TCP/IP-Packets into AppleTalk, for > transporting IP over links which don't support native IP encap. > LocalTalk is a good example for such a link. You need a gateway to > decap such packets. In the day, that would have been a FastPath, a Gatorbox, or whatever Webster called their localtalk/ethernet router. > Enter a valid IP address for your network into the appropriate text > entry field and click on more. > > Obtain Address: Manually (I don't know if MacTCP supports DHCP properly) WARNING!! ISTR a "dynamic" address meant picking a random address on the subnet!! On IP over AppleTalk, "server" meant asking a local IPGATEWAY (FastPath, Gatorbox, ....). ARP over AppleTalk was done with NBP! On Ethernet, "server" __MIGHT__ mean BOOTP. This was before DHCP (a superset of BOOTP) existed. If you have a DHCP server, it might support BOOTP clients. Phil Budne (Shiva FastPath 5 Project leader) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 17:36:34 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 23:36:34 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <79909265-CF9B-4A45-91A6-68364BB51C38@gmail.com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> <79909265-CF9B-4A45-91A6-68364BB51C38@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6 November 2012 22:59, David Riley wrote: > > On Nov 6, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> Some of the Now utils >>> (clock in the menu bar, drop-down Apple Menu items) were quite >>> handy before they were absorbed into the OS, and didn't really >>> take all that many resources. >> >> I forget whose or what I used. I don't think they were anything to do >> with NUTD, if that's the Now you meant? > > Same company. They had a utilities package which I think Apple > ended up buying outright to do all the things you take for granted > in later versions of System 7 and further (like the menu bar > clock, or hierarchical menus in the Apple Menu). Interesting - ta! I did not know that. >>> System 7 works on my SE (4 MB RAM) for a number of things, including >>> quite a few games, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for things like >>> MacTCP. I have a switch to choose between 7.0.1 and 6.0.8 (if you >>> don't have it already, System Switcher is a REALLY handy util). >> >> I just attach multiple SCSI drives. :?) It's not like you need very big ones! > > Handy if you've got them. I don't, and I don't have the money to go > about grabbing more, so System Switcher is quite nice (also makes > for a nice setup on an all-in-one like the SE). Blimey. I'd offer to send you a few for nothing, but the cost of shipping would be around $10-$12, I think. >>> I think 7.6 is the absolute best OS to run on a PowerPC. I haven't >>> run it on an '040 any time recently, though I imagine it would be >>> acceptable, but I see very few downsides vs. running 7.5.x on a 68K >>> machine. >> >> Could not disagree more. I run/ran my PPCs on 9.1 or 9.2.2 if they can >> take it, as a rule. > > It's a matter of personal preference, I imagine. [Nod] >>> For what it's worth, I feel like the Mac OS peaked at 7.6, and it's >>> all been (non-monotonically) downhill from there. >> >> Again, I disagree. 7.6 is the best OS for 68030s, but for 68040s I >> much value the facilities of 8.1 - pop-up folders, drawers (damned >> near essential on smaller screens), HFS+ for bigger disks and so on. I >> also think the 8.1 Finder looks better. > > I would love to have 7.6 with HFS+. I never really cared for the > new look of OS 8; I liked the crisp look of 7.x. Not everyone is > likely to agree, obviously, and I wouldn't assert that it was the > *only* way to go (unless you were me, which you're not). I see appeal on both sides, but I actually liked and used the new features in 8. On a mono screen, though, 7 or 6 look better. > Cameron also pointed out the improved Unicode support in later > versions, which I had forgotten. That can be rather important, > depending on what you're trying to do. I can see it would matter, but I was never bothered myself. >>> I feel like there >>> was another local maximum at 10.4 (and another somewhat lower one >>> at 10.6), but it's kind of apples vs. oranges at that point. >> >> I miss Classic mode, but I find the facilities of Leopard - Spaces, >> for instance - so very useful that I have pretty much abandoned Tiger >> now. > > Again, personal preference; I never had a use for Expos? or Spaces, > the equivalent of which had been available to me for years under > Linux. I'm a corner case in a lot of ways, though; I always used > command-tab and ran everything at full screen. I used 3rd party vdesktop tools when I ran Tiger on a daily basis, but the integration in Leopard is much superior. Expos? is nice but I almost never need it - nor Dashboard. Spotlight I only use as an app launcher. >>> You may find running Netatalk 2.x on your server alongside FTP to be >>> a MUCH more pleasant way to transfer files. >> >> That'll be tricky, it runs Windows Server 2008. :?D > > Ah, well, there's that. There used to be an AppleTalk package for > Windows, and it might still be maintained, but it was commercial > and expensive. It was built in to NT Server 3/4 and very easy. It was a pig to get working on 2000 Server, where it was buried away, and was removed in 2003, IIRC. Damned shame. >>> FTP works, more or less, >>> but it trashes resource forks and just isn't as nice to work with, >>> even with a nice client like Fetch. >> >> I move binaries around inside Zips or Sits. For text files or Word >> docs, it doesn't matter too much. > > Sure. It's nice to not have to (for example, when doing NetBSD > kernel development for my LCIII, I have the LCIII Finder attach > to an AppleShare partition (hosted on my cross-compile Linux > machine) on boot and load the kernel from there. Nothing to do > with resource forks, but it cuts quite a bit of overhead from > test-swear-compile-reboot cycle. OIC. Yes, definite score there. >>> Ditto goes for OS X >>> machines; my MDD G4 runs twice as fast with the first version of >>> Tiger on it as it does with the last version, which is appalling. >> >> As in, 10.4.0 versus 10.4.11? I noticed no difference. Never really >> have with point-releases. > > Gradually, no. Try 'em side-by-side and you might notice. Fair point. The bugs and insecurities would worry me, though. >>>> Oh! Well that's good to know. I thought recent versions of Netatalk >>>> dropped Appletalk support and only ran AFS over TCP. >>> >>> 3.x did, yes, but 2.2.x is still maintained until they finally >>> decide to drop support for it. It's still readily available >>> from most package managers. >> >> OIC. So I wasn't totally wrong. That's good. :?) > > I was sad to see it go, but Frank Lahm pointed out that the > last maintainers that understood AppleTalk were long-gone > from the project and no one had stepped up to take their > place, and the demand just wasn't there. I'm inclined to > believe him, since I fixed a bug in the NetBSD AppleTalk > stack that kept it from working that had been there for at > least a year without anyone noticing. DECnet is similarly neglected, I fear. :?( >>> Ha! I ran one of those on my SE a long time ago (I managed to >>> find an SE Ethernet card a while back, though, which solved >>> the problem rather better). I have an Asant? Ethernet-to- >>> LocalTalk bridge that someone gave me with a LocalTalk-only >>> printer, but it's not entirely satisfactory (in particular, >>> it's weird about enumerating the LocalTalk side). I'm almost >>> of a mind to build a bridge of my own with a small Ethernet- >>> capable micro and an external 8530, but I keep making my >>> queue longer with other projects. :-\ >> >> If I can persuade or bribe Tony into fixing my SE/30, I shall be >> looking for an Ethernet board. And an external-monitor adaptor, lots >> of RAM and AU/X. ;?) > > The Ethernet cards are easy enough to get, at least over > here. The SE/30 shared a PDS with the IIsi, so they're > a little more common. I don't think they're common at all over here, but shipping would not be too bad. Shame it would cost a lot for a IIgs - I always wanted one of those from the day they were launched. Still do. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 17:52:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 15:52:28 -0800 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5099A2BC.4090709@sydex.com> On 11/06/2012 02:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > He came up with a way to use lots of RAM. > Could a similar system be hacked together for CP/M? Given the RAM, why not? An 8080 is Turing-complete, isn't it? All that differs is the time it takes to do it. But I don't see how CP/M has anything to do with it. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 6 18:12:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:12:43 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> <79909265-CF9B-4A45-91A6-68364BB51C38@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5099A77B.5080907@neurotica.com> On 11/06/2012 06:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I was sad to see it go, but Frank Lahm pointed out that the >> last maintainers that understood AppleTalk were long-gone >> from the project and no one had stepped up to take their >> place, and the demand just wasn't there. I'm inclined to >> believe him, since I fixed a bug in the NetBSD AppleTalk >> stack that kept it from working that had been there for at >> least a year without anyone noticing. > > DECnet is similarly neglected, I fear. :?( Works great here, under current Linux! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 18:16:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:16:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <50999C0E.8030109@neurotica.com> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> <50999C0E.8030109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121106160250.B1616@shell.lmi.net> > > There were, eventually, quite a few. I used the Corona/Cordata. > > and the JLASER > > and the Eiconscript (Postscript compatible and/or PCL) > > I had a switchbox at the input of my printer. On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Neat! I didn't know there were others. > Postscript really is a wonderful thing. :-) I always assumed that it was a proprietary dialect of Forth. Do you still have a LaserJet? (I've got a few IIP's, but I don't want to deal with shipping those.) I'm not sure where the box(es) of those cards are. BUT, I can see a shoebox full of HP font cartridges, including several Postscript ones, "25 in one", and Doctor Marty's ZIF socketed board. I could send some of those in a Priority Mail box or two. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 19:13:28 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 02:13:28 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08C034F0-94B0-4299-B56C-8FDCF028B816@pocnet.net> Am 06.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb Liam Proven: > I also think the 8.1 Finder looks better. This change in look was my point to stay with 7.6.1 on my 7500 until there would be something worth the change. I think, the window borders take too much space on the screen. That was my main reason to avoid anything >= 8. As David pointed out, I just like the crisp look. :-) > That'll be tricky, it runs Windows Server 2008. :?D You can use Hyper-V to run a Linux-guest ;-) > 10.4 feels slower than 10.3 & I am toying with downgrading my B&W > G3-with-a-G4-in-it to Panther, just for nostalgia. I have no need for > Dashboard and I don't /really/ need Spotlight. > > 10.5 might be slower than 10.4 but the extra facilities are worth it. I consider doing the same with my iBook G4, just to have classic back (and again something portable) when I finish reassembling. (It had issues with hangs. It turned out that running with an external FW-disk was completely okay. The internal disk also was ok, but booting from CD-ROM also failed. So, I suspict it was the IDE-controller. Since the book is not really usable with external disks only, I risked losing it completely by extracting the board and baking it for three minutes at 250 degrees Celsius. Just enough to make the sure the solder will get liquid. With that, I grilled the onboard-RAM. So I disabled it with a sharp knife, cutting the VCC-Pins from the first chip. It worked, booting the internal disk is possible again! Yeeha! Didn't take time to reassemble completely, yet.) > If I can persuade or bribe Tony into fixing my SE/30, I shall be > looking for an Ethernet board. And an external-monitor adaptor, lots > of RAM and AU/X. ;?) That could be hard to find. The SE/30 has only one slot. It should be daisy-chainable but next problem could be space. And, I can't see how to mount ethernet- and monitor ports on the rear. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 19:29:42 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 02:29:42 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23C84940-148A-4B74-893C-F48FC2E81FFC@pocnet.net> Am 06.11.2012 um 22:54 schrieb David Riley: > Ha! Screen savers. I remember After Dark; it was one of the most > reliable ways to make your Mac unreliable. Interesting. Perhaps with external modules? Nowadays, I like Starry Night best and can't find any problems with AD on different machines. But yes, I remember that certain combinations of extensions including AD would make my box crash more often. Can't remember which box or which combinations, though. > If I had the desk space to run my 7300 as an everyday machine (and > were willing to put up with the whine of its absurdly loud Barracuda > next to me all day), I think I'd demote it from the 9.1 I'd upgraded > to by the time I recommend using an IBM DCAS 34330. They're usually *very* quiet and you've plenty of space available. (Second, I equipped the power supply with a temperature regulated fan. The "G3"-Card stays cooler than the original 601-card, so the fan mostly works on minimum speed. I'm hearing my G5 louder than this 7500.) > I'm almost > of a mind to build a bridge of my own with a small Ethernet- > capable micro and an external 8530 I'm utilizing a STARLAN Box for that. Hangs after a few weeks and needs a reset, then. > for example, I can't browse my Windows machines' SMB shares if I > give them static IPs for some reason This is strange. I learned, that everything will be fine with browsing when all machines register themselves on one WINS-Server. Without, the browsing list changes with every refresh, especially in big company networks. Perhaps, DHCP sends an "your-wins-server-is"-option and you miss to configure that manually? :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Tue Nov 6 19:57:18 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 02:57:18 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: Am 06.11.2012 um 22:20 schrieb Liam Proven: >> first, please apoplogize. I didn't and don't want to offend! It's >> just the >> way I feel from years of practice. > > Oh no, not at all. I am enjoying the debate! Thanks! I started to be worried... > But I started out on Macs in the very late days of System 6 & moved to > System 7 within months. I started my use of Macs in 1988, a Mac II with a 1-bit Viking Moniterm TTL 19", 1024x768 display with anti-glare. 2MB RAM, System 6.0.3. (Helping my dad run a new company.) Comparing to what I've seen in classmates' homes, this was heaven on earth! So, I'm very used to System 6. :-) Anyone remember the backup program shipped with 6.0.3? I once had to make a full restore and this damned thing had no idea of the folder structure. I put all files just onto the plain disk! Later, when I had money for an used SE/30 in 1992, I tried to stay with 6.0.7 but System 7 had many advantages for me also. Try to move a file from a window behind the destination window into this destination window in Sys 6 and Sys 7. With Sys 6, the source window will rise, possibly cover the destination window and you're doomed to put the file back and shuffle windows first. With Sys 7, the source window stays behind, won't cover the destination window and you can easily move the file. That's important when working on a 512x384-pixel screen. When running programs in the background (actually doing something), everything feels a lot smoother in Sys 7 than with Sys 6. And, copying files, emptying the trash in the background! And a lot more. One the downside, screen redraws felt a low slower than with Sys 6. > I am used to a clock in the menu bar SuperClock! My Choice for Sys 6 and 7! > a hierarchical Apple menu, a modular control panel, a screen-saver, > things like that. It is perfectly possible to add all this to Sys6 > with some INITs and CDEVs - although it was tricky to find them when I > did it, and that was 5-6y ago now. I agree. > I must admit, I don't use any Macs slower than that. I have an LC2 but > I mean just to fix it up & try to sell it. 68030 is as low as I want > to go these days, I think. :) I'm very happy with my IIfx, running Sys 7.1. :-) Okay, this is a bad example, since it's the fastest 030 from Apple. > Certainly, I would run the lowest system version that did what I > needed if I was on a 68000, so I agree with you there. Thanks :-) >> Maybe it's reasonably quick when it's running but booting is >> painfully slow >> on low end machines. Especially *with* extensions to provide a >> "pleasant and >> productive environment". ;-) > > I didn't find it so, actually. The Classic II maxes out at 10MB of > RAM; 7.6.1 recommends a minimum of 12MB. I did not expect it to work. > It did, very well. > > Then I turned off virtual memory and added RAMdoubler. ;?) Ah-ha! :-) > I think our attitudes differ on this. Yes, I absolutely agree. >> If if comes down to machines not equipped with Ethernet or Token >> Ring, >> there's no other choice than running AppleTalk over LocalTalk. One >> may use >> MacTCP or Open Transport to encap IP into AppleTalk packets, so >> still IP is >> possible (with a maximum MTU of 576 Bytes). > > Aha! I use an Asant? EtherSCSI. If I can't have Ethernet and TCP/IP, I > regard it as not being networked, these days. Depends. :-) I'm trying to get as many machines as possible from ethernet to my Token Ring. :-) Best thing I got recently was a network card for my APC-UPS. Token Ring! :-D >> I have a LaserJet 5100, equipped with a Token Ring network card. >> How can I >> print from my IIfx on this? HP Token Ring equipment doesn't talk >> AppleTalk. >> I'm printing into a Netware queue via AppleTalk. From there, the >> pserver.nlm >> takes the job and feeds it to the printer via IPX. > > Cunning! > > But probably more work than I would go to, I fear. Thanks! All of this wasn't built in a day but over years. Yes, it was an effort. But it works when I need it and I can impress people :-) >> You see, the extent of "you need TCP/IP" statement depends heavily >> on usage >> scenarios. > > Well, true. I was thinking only of my own use, I confess. Everyone has a focus on his own usage. :-) >> Me either. So we're basically talkin' 'bout the same. Let alone, >> the way of >> usage seems to be different. Example: On my IIfx, I'm running >> Ircle, for >> chatting on an internal IRC-Network with a lot of friends. I'm >> running >> telnet to tail -f the system log of my linux box. I'm running MacX >> to see >> what XLoad tells about the usage of my Linux box. I'm running >> Newswatcher to >> read and answer interesting discussions in Mac centric usenet >> groups. I'm >> running Peter Lewis' talk(d) applications for copypasting Web-URLs >> from and >> to IRC or news articles, to watch on the G5. This is a very IP- >> centric >> usage. > > Definitely, yes. But probably more work than I would bother to do. I > am very impressed, though! Thanks. Like it pleases you to see your old Macs on the web, it pleases me to actually use the machines for something. Usage is not so heavy like when the particular boxes were my only one but they have usage. On my LC runs Sys 6. I need to make space, so I can tinker with the source of IRCle. I miss a few features. ;-) Unfortunately, compilation is not possible with the most recent version of THINK Pascal. I suspict a compiler bug. When compiling, TP stops complaining about the type of a parameter given to SFGetFile(). With TP 2 under Sys 6, it works. Same source files. :wq! PoC From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Nov 6 20:06:43 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 02:06:43 +0000 Subject: COBOL manuals for Tops-10/TOPS-20??? Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> I need to deal with modifying some COBOL code in the Tops-10 and TOPS-20 usage reporting software, and have no manuals. Yeah, COBOL is COBOL, but the details (what is "DISPLAY-7" as opposed to "DISPLAY-9"?) are important. There are no COBOL manuals on the PDP10 portion of Bitsavers at the moment. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 20:11:42 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:11:42 -0800 Subject: Those TI 1500 machines... Message-ID: <5099C35E.6030904@gmail.com> The TI 1500 series UNIX machines that Isnagged off eBay a couple weeks back finally arrived on my doorstep this morning. Floating in a sea of packing peanuts in very battered boxes. *sigh*. I feared the worst but they appear to have made it more or less in one piece. Only casualty was one of the front plates (plastic) which looks like it'll be fine after some supergluing. These things are built like tanks. As the eBay listing specified, there are no hard drives. The pictures on the auction made it look like there was a drive included in one of the machines, but this was apparently removed before shipping. I was kind of hoping there'd be a drive but oh well. At least it's got a standard SCSI interface. Now to find some actual software for this thing, I'm sure that'll be easy ;). Other than that, the machines are completeand seem to be functioning properly (see the end of this mail for some diagnostic output porn, if you're into that sort of thing.) The larger of the two (it's just slightly taller than the other) has no model designation on the front (the shorter says "TI 1500 Computer", but both of them are labeled as S1505s on the rear, with S1507 processors and differing options installed. The taller POSTs as a 1507, the shorter as a 1505. Dates on EPROMs are from the early 90s. (91 and 92). The taller (1507) has a 68040 CPU (25Mhz), 64mb of RAM (30-pin 4mb simms, parity), a Communications co-processor, ethernet, and a couple of other communications adapters(a "Multidrop\V.35 and some misc "Comm Carrier" boards). Looks like the 68040 is an upgrade of sorts (looks to be official) -- the two machines have the same motherboard, but the 68040 is on a daughterboard that plugs into the 68030 socket. The shorter (1505) has a 68030 (25Mhz) with 68882and only8mb of RAM (30-pin 1mb simms, parity). Aside from a"Comm Carrier" board it also has an 8-channel async serial boardwith 8 MMJ connectors on the rear. Near the bottom on the rear there is a pair of ports (DB-25 and MMJ) labeled "DIAG PORT." I connected a standard DEC MMJ to it and at 9600N7 I get diagnostic output(see below). Other interesting things of note: There are a lot of 68K-series processors in these machines. Aside fromthe main 68040 CPU, there are two 68000 CPUs on the motherboard, one for COMM I/O, the other for SCSI (they're neatly labeled). The Communications coprocessor board contains an additional 68010. Diags indicate that the boards are Nubus, though they don't use the standard connector I'm familiar with. Looks more like PCI/microchannel. That's all for now. I've taken some pictures which I'll post later. If anyone wants more details, let me know. And if anyone knows where to find OS tapes for thisthing, I'm all ears. Thanks, Josh Diag output follows: ------------------- RESET Executing S1507 68040 F/W Rev *F in Slot C with 64MB memory Selftest BEGINS Test 00 RAM passed Test 01 PARITY passed Test 02 ICC passed Test 03 CACHE passed Test 04 MAD passed Test 05 TIMER passed Test 06 NVRAM passed Test 07 SPA passed Test 08 C-ROM passed Selftest COMPLETE Slot C CPU TESTING SYSTEM: Slot 0 CPO passed Slot 8 CPO passed Slot 9 SPC passed Slot C CPU passed Global ARB passed D=Default load, M=Menu load, R=Retest, E=Extended tests : Waiting Errors in unit D=Default load, M=Menu load, R=Retest, E=Extended tests :M Available load devices No online device D=Default load, M=Menu load, R=Retest, E=Extended tests :E Slot C CPU TESTING SYSTEM: Slot 0 CPO (TIAU 00002561095-0001 *P) COMM CARRIER & OPTION BOARD TEST NuBus Slave Cycle Memory Test passed NuBus Master Logic Test passed ROM CRC passed ICC test passed COSI registers test passed RAM pattern test passed RAM bit test passed RAM address test passed COSI timer test passed LAN ID ROM CRC test passed COSI DMA test passed Bus exception test passed PORT 0 OPTION : 3 channel MULTIFUNCTION ADAPTOR : 3 channel MULTIFUNCTION Read/Write register test passed Counter/timer test passed Adaptor board test passed ASYNC loopback test passed BOP loopback test passed DMA loopback test passed DMA BOP linked array test passed PAL state machine passed NRZI BOP loopback test passed High Speed BOP loopback test passed BISYNC loopback test passed PORT 1 OPTION : EMPTY ADAPTOR : EMPTY COMM section ARBITRATION test passed passed Slot 8 CPO (TIAU 00002571396-0001 *L) COMM CARRIER & OPTION BOARD TEST NuBus Slave Cycle Memory Test passed NuBus Master Logic Test passed ROM CRC passed ICC test passed COSI registers test passed RAM pattern test passed RAM bit test passed RAM address test passed COSI timer test passed LAN ID ROM CRC test passed COSI DMA test passed Bus exception test passed PORT 0 OPTION : MULTIDROP\V.35 ADAPTOR : MULTIDROP with printer Read write devices test passed PI/T 68230 test passed MC68440 DMA test passed MC68606 DMA test passed Transmit and receive frames test passed PORT 1 OPTION : LAN 802.3 ADAPTOR : 802.3 ETHERNET Timer test passed Internal loopback test passed Adaptor internal loopback test passed Multicast test passed CRC test passed Off board test skipped COMM section ARBITRATION test passed passed Slot 9 SPC (TIAU 00002571396-0001 *L) passed Slot C CPU (TIAU 00002571396-0001 *L) Selftest BEGINS Test 00 RAM passed Test 01 PARITY passed Test 02 ICC passed Test 03 CACHE passed Test 04 MAD passed Test 05 TIMER passed Test 06 NVRAM passed Test 07 SPA passed Test 08 C-ROM passed Selftest COMPLETE passed Global ARB passed D=Default load, M=Menu load, R=Retest, E=Extended tests : From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 6 20:44:22 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 21:44:22 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106160250.B1616@shell.lmi.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> <50999C0E.8030109@neurotica.com> <20121106160250.B1616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5099CB06.1010402@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/11/12 7:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> There were, eventually, quite a few. I used the Corona/Cordata. >>> and the JLASER >>> and the Eiconscript (Postscript compatible and/or PCL) >>> I had a switchbox at the input of my printer. > On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Neat! I didn't know there were others. >> Postscript really is a wonderful thing. :-) > > I always assumed that it was a proprietary dialect of Forth. It's stack based. Beyond that there's not that much similarity. The data types and various other features were relatively modern for the time. Definitely deserved its success - an elegant design with a good fit to its application. --Toby > > Do you still have a LaserJet? > (I've got a few IIP's, but I don't want to deal with shipping those.) > > I'm not sure where the box(es) of those cards are. > BUT, I can see a shoebox full of HP font cartridges, including several > Postscript ones, "25 in one", and Doctor Marty's ZIF socketed board. > I could send some of those in a Priority Mail box or two. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 6 20:56:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:56:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106160250.B1616@shell.lmi.net> References: <50994659.6030709@verizon.net> <5099577B.6090601@verizon.net> <20121106134808.H1616@shell.lmi.net> <5099958C.5010005@neurotica.com> <20121106150735.X1616@shell.lmi.net> <50999C0E.8030109@neurotica.com> <20121106160250.B1616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201211070256.VAA04150@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Postscript really is a wonderful thing. :-) > I always assumed that it was a proprietary dialect of Forth. It is not. (That is to say, PostScript is not. There may well be printers that do speak proprietary FORTH dialects.) PostScript does have the stack-language discipline and postfix syntax of FORTH, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends. In PS, the return stack is not programmer-accessible in general, the memory discipline is mostly that of a free-form garbage-collected language, the type structure is much more elaborate than "machine word", things like << and { and ( and % are parser syntax rather than immediate words, and various other relevant differences that either don't come to mind at the moment or are small enough that it's impracticel to list them all individually. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcesari at comcast.net Wed Nov 7 00:31:40 2012 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 23:31:40 -0700 Subject: COBOL manuals for Tops-10/TOPS-20??? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <8827EF7C-CFB1-4B15-A00E-36D137A19C71@comcast.net> On Nov 6, 2012, at 7:06 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I need to deal with modifying some COBOL code in the Tops-10 and TOPS-20 > usage reporting software, and have no manuals. Yeah, COBOL is COBOL, but > the details (what is "DISPLAY-7" as opposed to "DISPLAY-9"?) are important. > > There are no COBOL manuals on the PDP10 portion of Bitsavers at the moment. > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > There is a COBOL-74 manual on bitsavers here: dec/pdp10/TOPS10_softwareNotebooks/vol10 Mike From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 18:17:22 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 00:17:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Nov 06, 2012 5:27:37 pm GMT Message-ID: On 11/06/2012 10:53 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > it got me wondering... what CP/M software is out > there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? There were various packages specific to the Amstrad PCW that could make use of the up to 2Mb it could take. There were task switchers like Network (which allowed switching between multiple CP/M programs) and Flipper (which allowed switching between multiple operating systems). The DTP package MicroDesign used the memory to store the page it was working on. Then there's my contributon: ZXZVM runs an Infocom Z-Code game, using the extra memory to store the game file and the up to 64k of RAM that the virtual machine requires. -- John Elliott From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 01:24:43 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 02:24:43 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 7:17 PM, John Elliott wrote: > On 11/06/2012 10:53 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> it got me wondering... what CP/M software is out >> there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? > Then > there's my contributon: ZXZVM runs an Infocom Z-Code game, using the extra > memory to store the game file and the up to 64k of RAM that the virtual > machine requires. I will _definitely_ be interested in that! Thanks, -ethan From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 7 01:40:18 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:40:18 +0100 Subject: An ACI-90 / WD900 joins the stable. Message-ID: <509A1062.9000504@bluewin.ch> Never believed I would be able to get one, but an ACI-90 has joined my small collection. For those who don't know it, is is a box with 2 8" floppies , power supply and a WD-900 Pascal Microengine board. No disk or manuals sadly. It should feel right at home next to the Lilith.. The WD-9000 chipset contains these : CP2151-B, CP2161B-02, CP2171-B10, CP2171-B12 and CP2171A-13, I understand different combinations are around. Bad side is of course that I have now reserved all free time for the next months : finding/creating boot disks, tracing schematic, reading ROMS and creating the emulator... Jos From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:23:50 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:23:50 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <08C034F0-94B0-4299-B56C-8FDCF028B816@pocnet.net> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> <08C034F0-94B0-4299-B56C-8FDCF028B816@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On 7 November 2012 01:13, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Am 06.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb Liam Proven: > > >> I also think the 8.1 Finder looks better. > > This change in look was my point to stay with 7.6.1 on my 7500 until there > would be something worth the change. I think, the window borders take too > much space on the screen. That was my main reason to avoid anything >= 8. As > David pointed out, I just like the crisp look. :-) I thought the borders were all the same size? I remember when Blue Box appeared in the OS X betas. Many people had said that the new window decorations took too much space, but when you could inter-mix them with OS9 windows, you could see that they were actually exactly the same size. >> That'll be tricky, it runs Windows Server 2008. :?D > > You can use Hyper-V to run a Linux-guest ;-) Nope. Old P4, no Intel VT. Also, only 1GB of RAM. ;?D >> 10.4 feels slower than 10.3 & I am toying with downgrading my B&W >> G3-with-a-G4-in-it to Panther, just for nostalgia. I have no need for >> Dashboard and I don't /really/ need Spotlight. >> >> 10.5 might be slower than 10.4 but the extra facilities are worth it. > > I consider doing the same with my iBook G4, just to have classic back (and > again something portable) when I finish reassembling. (It had issues with > hangs. It turned out that running with an external FW-disk was completely > okay. The internal disk also was ok, but booting from CD-ROM also failed. > So, I suspict it was the IDE-controller. Since the book is not really usable > with external disks only, I risked losing it completely by extracting the > board and baking it for three minutes at 250 degrees Celsius. Just enough to > make the sure the solder will get liquid. With that, I grilled the > onboard-RAM. So I disabled it with a sharp knife, cutting the VCC-Pins from > the first chip. It worked, booting the internal disk is possible again! > Yeeha! Didn't take time to reassemble completely, yet.) O_o You are more intrepid than I! >> If I can persuade or bribe Tony into fixing my SE/30, I shall be >> looking for an Ethernet board. And an external-monitor adaptor, lots >> of RAM and AU/X. ;?) > > That could be hard to find. The SE/30 has only one slot. It should be > daisy-chainable but next problem could be space. And, I can't see how to > mount ethernet- and monitor ports on the rear. I have heard that it is possible, although not easy... No details, though. The Micron (?) board that also enables greyscale display on the internal 9" monitor would be lovely to have. There is/was an effort to reverse-engineer and reimplement it, but I don't think it got anywhere... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:26:17 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:26:17 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On 7 November 2012 01:57, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > > I started my use of Macs in 1988, a Mac II with a 1-bit Viking Moniterm TTL > 19", 1024x768 display with anti-glare. I think I have one of those in the garage, if you would like it...? Not sure how I can get it from London to Germany, but I have a friend who drives from London to Hannover 1 or 2 times a year to visit her parents... and some others who sometimes drive to/from Luneberg... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From poc at pocnet.net Wed Nov 7 07:53:06 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:53:06 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> <08C034F0-94B0-4299-B56C-8FDCF028B816@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <034301A1-2447-47A1-BA9F-46C27BF2EE93@pocnet.net> Am 07.11.2012 um 14:23 schrieb Liam Proven: > I remember when Blue Box appeared in the OS X betas. Many people had > said that the new window decorations took too much space, but when you > could inter-mix them with OS9 windows, you could see that they were > actually exactly the same size. Yes, there's no difference between OS X and OS 8+. The difference is with Sys < 8. > You are more intrepid than I! From doing nothing comes nothing :-) > The Micron (?) board that also enables greyscale display on the > internal 9" monitor would be lovely to have. There is/was an effort to > reverse-engineer and reimplement it, but I don't think it got > anywhere... Oh, that's relatively easy (to guess). I suspict, they redirect the internal video to the Micron board to get the right monitor frequencies and timing. The board has it's own framebuffer for grayscale which gets properly inserted into the NuBus declaration structs. The video cirquity will be managed by the Micron via some cabling. At least that's what I would do. :-) :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Wed Nov 7 07:57:08 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:57:08 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <4FC965EF-7618-417E-87B7-82ADFFB47CA2@pocnet.net> Am 07.11.2012 um 14:26 schrieb Liam Proven: > I think I have one of those in the garage, if you would like it...? -> PM :wq! PoC From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 08:35:38 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:35:38 -0600 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? I have 2 of them... See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Schindler Patrik Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 7:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 Am 06.11.2012 um 22:20 schrieb Liam Proven: >> first, please apoplogize. I didn't and don't want to offend! It's >> just the way I feel from years of practice. > > Oh no, not at all. I am enjoying the debate! Thanks! I started to be worried... > But I started out on Macs in the very late days of System 6 & moved to > System 7 within months. I started my use of Macs in 1988, a Mac II with a 1-bit Viking Moniterm TTL 19", 1024x768 display with anti-glare. 2MB RAM, System 6.0.3. (Helping my dad run a new company.) Comparing to what I've seen in classmates' homes, this was heaven on earth! So, I'm very used to System 6. :-) Anyone remember the backup program shipped with 6.0.3? I once had to make a full restore and this damned thing had no idea of the folder structure. I put all files just onto the plain disk! Later, when I had money for an used SE/30 in 1992, I tried to stay with 6.0.7 but System 7 had many advantages for me also. Try to move a file from a window behind the destination window into this destination window in Sys 6 and Sys 7. With Sys 6, the source window will rise, possibly cover the destination window and you're doomed to put the file back and shuffle windows first. With Sys 7, the source window stays behind, won't cover the destination window and you can easily move the file. That's important when working on a 512x384-pixel screen. When running programs in the background (actually doing something), everything feels a lot smoother in Sys 7 than with Sys 6. And, copying files, emptying the trash in the background! And a lot more. One the downside, screen redraws felt a low slower than with Sys 6. > I am used to a clock in the menu bar SuperClock! My Choice for Sys 6 and 7! > a hierarchical Apple menu, a modular control panel, a screen-saver, > things like that. It is perfectly possible to add all this to Sys6 > with some INITs and CDEVs - although it was tricky to find them when I > did it, and that was 5-6y ago now. I agree. > I must admit, I don't use any Macs slower than that. I have an LC2 but > I mean just to fix it up & try to sell it. 68030 is as low as I want > to go these days, I think. :) I'm very happy with my IIfx, running Sys 7.1. :-) Okay, this is a bad example, since it's the fastest 030 from Apple. > Certainly, I would run the lowest system version that did what I > needed if I was on a 68000, so I agree with you there. Thanks :-) >> Maybe it's reasonably quick when it's running but booting is >> painfully slow on low end machines. Especially *with* extensions to >> provide a "pleasant and productive environment". ;-) > > I didn't find it so, actually. The Classic II maxes out at 10MB of > RAM; 7.6.1 recommends a minimum of 12MB. I did not expect it to work. > It did, very well. > > Then I turned off virtual memory and added RAMdoubler. ;?) Ah-ha! :-) > I think our attitudes differ on this. Yes, I absolutely agree. >> If if comes down to machines not equipped with Ethernet or Token >> Ring, there's no other choice than running AppleTalk over LocalTalk. >> One may use MacTCP or Open Transport to encap IP into AppleTalk >> packets, so still IP is possible (with a maximum MTU of 576 Bytes). > > Aha! I use an Asant? EtherSCSI. If I can't have Ethernet and TCP/IP, I > regard it as not being networked, these days. Depends. :-) I'm trying to get as many machines as possible from ethernet to my Token Ring. :-) Best thing I got recently was a network card for my APC-UPS. Token Ring! :-D >> I have a LaserJet 5100, equipped with a Token Ring network card. >> How can I >> print from my IIfx on this? HP Token Ring equipment doesn't talk >> AppleTalk. >> I'm printing into a Netware queue via AppleTalk. From there, the >> pserver.nlm takes the job and feeds it to the printer via IPX. > > Cunning! > > But probably more work than I would go to, I fear. Thanks! All of this wasn't built in a day but over years. Yes, it was an effort. But it works when I need it and I can impress people :-) >> You see, the extent of "you need TCP/IP" statement depends heavily on >> usage scenarios. > > Well, true. I was thinking only of my own use, I confess. Everyone has a focus on his own usage. :-) >> Me either. So we're basically talkin' 'bout the same. Let alone, the >> way of usage seems to be different. Example: On my IIfx, I'm running >> Ircle, for chatting on an internal IRC-Network with a lot of friends. >> I'm running telnet to tail -f the system log of my linux box. I'm >> running MacX to see what XLoad tells about the usage of my Linux box. >> I'm running Newswatcher to read and answer interesting discussions in >> Mac centric usenet groups. I'm running Peter Lewis' talk(d) >> applications for copypasting Web-URLs from and to IRC or news >> articles, to watch on the G5. This is a very IP- centric usage. > > Definitely, yes. But probably more work than I would bother to do. I > am very impressed, though! Thanks. Like it pleases you to see your old Macs on the web, it pleases me to actually use the machines for something. Usage is not so heavy like when the particular boxes were my only one but they have usage. On my LC runs Sys 6. I need to make space, so I can tinker with the source of IRCle. I miss a few features. ;-) Unfortunately, compilation is not possible with the most recent version of THINK Pascal. I suspict a compiler bug. When compiling, TP stops complaining about the type of a parameter given to SFGetFile(). With TP 2 under Sys 6, it works. Same source files. :wq! PoC ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From poc at pocnet.net Wed Nov 7 08:42:56 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:42:56 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: Am 07.11.2012 um 15:35 schrieb Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus: > I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any > use? I > have 2 of them... > See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html For old machines, yes. :wq! PoC From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 08:45:47 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:45:47 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: On 7 November 2012 14:35, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? I > have 2 of them... > See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html No, I'm afraid not. That is for connecting Macs with onboard Ethernet that uses Apple's weird connector to more standard cabling. It's not actually an Ethernet adaptor in its own right, which adds an Ethernet interface to machines which don't have it already. Nice try, though! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From Mark at Misty.com Wed Nov 7 08:57:38 2012 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:57:38 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121107145738.GA6824@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:53:33AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm not joining in the kickstarter because I already have a P112 I > purchased as a bare PCB and loose SMD parts in the previous round. I I already have a p112, but I felt by participating I'd be helping promote an interesting project, and I'd have fun building another one. > just uncovered it last night moving some things around and started > tossing build-parts into a bin to put it together. I do happen to > have a couple of 32-pin JEDEC 512K SRAMs (originally for an SBC6120 > RAM disk PCB that got destroyed in the mail), so I _can_ fully > populate it, but it got me wondering... what CP/M software is out > there (except maybe a RAM disk) that can *use* 1MB? > > I have a bit of experience with 48K-64K CP/M machines (mostly Kaypro, > but some others), because back when I was using it, that was how much > memory 8-bitters had. I didn't mess with them much after 1985, so if > there was still any development on that platform, I didn't see it. > > So why *does* the P112 have 1MB of RAM? What's the space over 64K good for? See the section here about the Banked BIOS and RAMDISK. http://home.roadrunner.com/~tgcons/P112%20Faqs.htm Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 09:07:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:07:04 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? I > have 2 of them... > See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html Not for an SE/30, alas. Those are essentially AUI transceivers using Apple's AAUI connector (a small-form-factor version of AUI pretty much only found on Macs). They're handy for earlier Macs with built- in Ethernet but no 10BaseT connector, like Quadras and early Power Macs. Plenty of folks on this list may find them useful, though (but they're not especially uncommon). - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 09:14:27 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:14:27 -0600 Subject: System 370 error, very sorry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013801cdbcfa$94486230$bcd92690$@com> The System 370 was an error. What they actually are is 5 legal-size paper boxes of 8" floppies that were used by a company for backup on a System 36. There are also "magazines" that hold 10 of these disks each. There does not appear to be any original system software, just used disks, which are prob of interest to someone who needs 8" floppies. You are welcome to post anything anywhere you want, since I want these things to go to a good home, instead of the scrap pile. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley at swri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:00 AM To: sales at elecplus.com; Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Subject: Kevin, it's fine by me, my only stake is I hope the stuff all finds new homes. I assume it's OK with Cindy, but she should answer for herself. At 16:40 -0600 11/6/12, wrote: >Message: 9 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:12:24 -0600 >From: Kevin Monceaux >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) >Message-ID: <20121106211223.GA2892 at RawFedDogs.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Mark, > >On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:06:25AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > >> That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling >> off the collection. Her description of what is there includes: >> >> At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> > >> >Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. > >Would you, or Cindy, mind if I cross-post this to the Hercules-390 list? >The System 370 stuff could be of great interest to many Herculeans. > > >-- > >Kevin >http://www.RawFedDogs.net >http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net >http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >Bruceville, TX > >What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 7 09:18:29 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:18:29 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Message-ID: At 16:40 -0600 11/6/12, Sam wrote: >Sounds like a fun day for localish collectors to get together. So she's >getting out all together? Do you recall how things are priced or does she >have a price list on some of the vintage gear? I see they have a >complete/working 5150 but $650 for the website price tag is pretty high. I did not discuss pricing with her. I think she's getting out altogether, to focus on family. >Either way, I'd probably be up for a trip if the spousal unit approves. Hm >crap.. I'll technically be on call that weekend but I can probably still >swing it. Other weekends are workable, but I think the end of the year is the deadline. >Is there an offline coordination effort or we can keep it on the >list if it's topical for folks who might want to go. I vote on-list, but non-local list members may vote otherwise; comments welcome either way. >If you or she has some pictures of the vintage stuff I'd love to see what's >there just to gauge things a bit. Not sure what I'd be searching for out >there, I love Commodore/Amiga but also like other one off home computers >(generally my collection focuses on the home computer market). I have a set of pictures from 2001. I'll try to find a place to post those and report back here when done, but be aware they are more than a decade obsolete. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 09:25:01 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:25:01 -0600 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~netmgr/ether.mac.html This lists known working Ethernet devices. http://www.mail-archive.com/compact.macs at mail.maclaunch.com/msg05666.html This lists some alternatives. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 8:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 On 7 November 2012 14:35, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? > I have 2 of them... > See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html No, I'm afraid not. That is for connecting Macs with onboard Ethernet that uses Apple's weird connector to more standard cabling. It's not actually an Ethernet adaptor in its own right, which adds an Ethernet interface to machines which don't have it already. Nice try, though! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Nov 7 09:32:28 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:32:28 +0000 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: On 7 November 2012 15:07, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? I >> have 2 of them... >> See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html > > Not for an SE/30, alas. Those are essentially AUI transceivers using > Apple's AAUI connector (a small-form-factor version of AUI pretty > much only found on Macs). They're handy for earlier Macs with built- > in Ethernet but no 10BaseT connector, like Quadras and early Power > Macs. Plenty of folks on this list may find them useful, though > (but they're not especially uncommon). Asante used to make a SCSI <-> Ethernet adapter for classic Macs. Sorry if someone already answered this. I used to have one... I don't know what I did with it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 09:47:09 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:47:09 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013d01cdbcff$25abf080$7103d180$@com> Pricing is entirely optional; if you see something you want, make an offer. There is no way to get everything on the website. Some rooms are crammed so full, it would be impossible to get pics of everything. The website is generally for things that are fully tested. I don't have the time or the resources to test everything, so please be diag disks with you. Dec 1 is not set in stone, but I need to clear the warehouse (10,000 sq feet) by Christmas. If you want to come a different day/time, call me at 830-792-3400, or send an email to sales at elecplus.com. No Amigas that I am aware of, just Commodore 64s, some modified, 1 still in original box. Also Tandys, CoCos, Microchannel IBMs, old clones, boxes of old CPUS and motherboards and memory. Almost everything here is 15yrs or older, except the retail stuff for the local customers. Also TI99s, 1 still in box, and some older CPM things, like the 3 Kaypros. Also Compaq luggables (they worked fine when last booted, abt 10 yrs ago). I can post some pics, will send link later. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tapley Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:18 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) At 16:40 -0600 11/6/12, Sam wrote: >Sounds like a fun day for localish collectors to get together. So >she's getting out all together? Do you recall how things are priced or >does she have a price list on some of the vintage gear? I see they >have a complete/working 5150 but $650 for the website price tag is pretty high. I did not discuss pricing with her. I think she's getting out altogether, to focus on family. >Either way, I'd probably be up for a trip if the spousal unit approves. >Hm crap.. I'll technically be on call that weekend but I can probably >still swing it. Other weekends are workable, but I think the end of the year is the deadline. >Is there an offline coordination effort or we can keep it on the list >if it's topical for folks who might want to go. I vote on-list, but non-local list members may vote otherwise; comments welcome either way. >If you or she has some pictures of the vintage stuff I'd love to see >what's there just to gauge things a bit. Not sure what I'd be >searching for out there, I love Commodore/Amiga but also like other one >off home computers (generally my collection focuses on the home computer market). I have a set of pictures from 2001. I'll try to find a place to post those and report back here when done, but be aware they are more than a decade obsolete. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 7 09:49:02 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:49:02 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Message-ID: All, in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may be there; I don't know. Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they so desire. >Reply-To: Mark Tapley >Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 >Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. > >You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: >Electronics >Plus, March 2001 > >Electronics Plus, March 2001 >Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted >Nov 7, 2012 >by Mark Tapley >Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville >View >Album >Play >slideshow > -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 09:58:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:58:50 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> Message-ID: <9FBD1B90-DE2B-4633-986A-ABF85251DC82@gmail.com> On Nov 7, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~netmgr/ether.mac.html > > This lists known working Ethernet devices. > > http://www.mail-archive.com/compact.macs at mail.maclaunch.com/msg05666.html > > This lists some alternatives. I think the difficulty is in finding a way to do BOTH Ethernet and an external monitor controller, since the SE/30 only has one PDS slot (and thus one opening in the back). There are no combined cards to the best of my knowledge. There are some video controllers that allow the internal display to be used for 4-bit gray (or was it 4-color? I can't remember), but even then you'd still have to figure out a way to put both cards in the chassis. - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 10:06:26 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:06:26 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014401cdbd01$d772bbd0$86583370$@com> Excellent, thank you! Almost all of this is still here. As a note, the pile of power supplies has been tested and sorted, and is no longer a pile J These pics barely scratch the surface. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley at swri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:49 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: sales at elecplus.com Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) All, in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may be there; I don't know. Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they so desire. Reply-To: Mark Tapley Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: Electronics Plus, March 2001 Electronics Plus, March 2001 Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted Nov 7, 2012 by Mark Tapley Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville View Album Play slideshow -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 10:08:00 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:08:00 -0600 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> Message-ID: <014901cdbd02$0f2ddaa0$2d898fe0$@com> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-110-00014-100-LC-PDS-10bT-10b2-Mac-Network-Car d-/190745314482?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c694e84b 2 This is not my listing, but I have 7 of these cards, I think pulled from LCIIIs. $10 each plus shipping. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:25 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~netmgr/ether.mac.html This lists known working Ethernet devices. http://www.mail-archive.com/compact.macs at mail.maclaunch.com/msg05666.html This lists some alternatives. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 8:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 On 7 November 2012 14:35, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? > I have 2 of them... > See here for pic and description http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html No, I'm afraid not. That is for connecting Macs with onboard Ethernet that uses Apple's weird connector to more standard cabling. It's not actually an Ethernet adaptor in its own right, which adds an Ethernet interface to machines which don't have it already. Nice try, though! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 7 10:16:02 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:16:02 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Message-ID: All, Cindy also looked at the pictures, and responds: At 10:06 -0600 11/7/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Excellent, thank you! Almost all of this is >still here. As a note, the pile of power >supplies has been tested and sorted, and is no >longer a pile J These pics barely scratch the >surface? > >Cindy Croxton >Electronics Plus >1613 Water Street >Kerrville, TX 78028 >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >AOL IM elcpls I will concur that the pictures show only a small fraction of what is there; I only took pictures of things that interested me, and therefore skipped the great majority of the warehouse. Feel free to cross-post to other lists if you are on them and you think their members would be interested; the objective is to move this collection away from scrappers and toward collectors wherever possible. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:36:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:36:59 -0200 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) References: Message-ID: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> Bu???, I want a //GS!!! :'( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tapley" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > All, > in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in > 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. > Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be > that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may > be there; I don't know. > Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus > hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they > so desire. > >>Reply-To: Mark Tapley >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 >>Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. >> >>You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: >>Electronics >>Plus, March 2001 >> >>Electronics Plus, March 2001 >>Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted >>Nov 7, 2012 >>by Mark Tapley >>Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville >>View >>Album >>Play >>slideshow >> > > > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Nov 7 11:14:31 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:14:31 +0000 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> References: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051366F7E9@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Is there any webpage with more info on this warehouse and its contents? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Bu???, I want a //GS!!! :'( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tapley" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > All, > in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in > 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. > Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be > that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may > be there; I don't know. > Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus > hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they > so desire. > >>Reply-To: Mark Tapley >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 >>Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. >> >>You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: >>Electronics >>Plus, March 2001 >> >>Electronics Plus, March 2001 >>Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted >>Nov 7, 2012 >>by Mark Tapley >>Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville >>View >>Album >>Play >>slideshow >> > > > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 11:33:07 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:33:07 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051366F7E9@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051366F7E9@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <016f01cdbd0d$f32d9e10$d988da30$@com> Some of what has been tested and is ready for immediate sale can be found on www.elecshopper.com. If you have any specific requests, please email, and I will dig to see what I can find. If you find something you want, but don't like the price, email me and we will work something out. There is no way for me to get everything on the web site. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Brown Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:15 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Is there any webpage with more info on this warehouse and its contents? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Bu???, I want a //GS!!! :'( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tapley" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > All, > in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in > 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. > Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be > that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may > be there; I don't know. > Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus > hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they > so desire. > >>Reply-To: Mark Tapley >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 >>Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. >> >>You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: >>Elect ronics >>Plus, March 2001 >> >>Electronics Plus, March 2001 >>Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted >>Nov 7, 2012 >>by Mark Tapley >>Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville >>View >>Album >>Play >>slideshow >> > > > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 11:49:24 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:49:24 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> References: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> Message-ID: <017001cdbd10$3959b840$ac0d28c0$@com> I have an Apple IIGS in the original box, includes 4 diskettes (Your Apple Tour of the Apple ZIIGS, System disk ver 5.0.2, System tools, AppleShare File Server setup disk), Apple IIGS owner's guide, System Software users guide ver 5.0, Apple IIGS System disk users guide, AppleTalk Network Users Guide for the Apple IGS, Quick Start Guide, Apple IIGS memory expansion card owners guide. Monitors and kbds and mice are available, but you will have to tell me which ones you want. Also have Apple Writer II printers, laser printers, modems, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Bu???, I want a //GS!!! :'( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tapley" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > All, > in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in > 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. > Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be > that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may > be there; I don't know. > Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus > hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they > so desire. > >>Reply-To: Mark Tapley >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 >>Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. >> >>You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: >>Elect ronics >>Plus, March 2001 >> >>Electronics Plus, March 2001 >>Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted >>Nov 7, 2012 >>by Mark Tapley >>Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville >>View >>Album >>Play >>slideshow >> > > > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 11:56:56 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:56:56 -0600 Subject: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:51:12 -0600. <00a401cdbc58$12e25860$38a70920$@com> Message-ID: <017701cdbd11$47391770$d5ab4650$@com> Terminals include, but are not limited to: IBM Display Write systems Other IBM terminals Sun ITT TI Harris Lanier Wang Tandem Esprit Tektronix Motorola (these are new, never used) Sperry/Unisys HP Honeywell AT&T DEC Wyse Farrington Matching kbds might be available. I do have several 10 pound kbds that went to the original DEC VT100 terminals. A few are missing one or more keycaps. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: Richard [mailto:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 6:50 PM To: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus Subject: Re: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory [off-list reply] In article <00a401cdbc58$12e25860$38a70920$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > LOTS of dumb terminals, some kbds. Hi Cindy, Any chance you could name a few make/models on the terminals? Nothing exhaustive, just a representative sample would be nice. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 12:03:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:03:06 -0500 Subject: An ACI-90 / WD900 joins the stable. In-Reply-To: <509A1062.9000504@bluewin.ch> References: <509A1062.9000504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <509AA25A.8090502@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 02:40 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Never believed I would be able to get one, but an ACI-90 has joined my > small collection. > For those who don't know it, is is a box with 2 8" floppies , power > supply and a WD-900 Pascal Microengine board. > No disk or manuals sadly. > > It should feel right at home next to the Lilith.. > > The WD-9000 chipset contains these : > > CP2151-B, CP2161B-02, CP2171-B10, CP2171-B12 and CP2171A-13, I > understand different combinations are around. > > Bad side is of course that I have now reserved all free time for the > next months : > finding/creating boot disks, tracing schematic, reading ROMS and > creating the emulator... WOW!! That is a great find! I am very jealous. Please take lots of pictures! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 12:30:08 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:30:08 -0600 Subject: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B49FB7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: Your message of Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:51:12 -0600. <00a401cdbc58$12e25860$38a70920$@com> , <017701cdbd11$47391770$d5ab4650$@com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B49FB7@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <018701cdbd15$eab58560$c0209020$@com> AT&T CRT 313-B which actually went to an old 286 computer 53D410 YAA, with a base of some sort Unix PC 8646 with attached monitor That's all I see right now for AT&T. These terminals were used on 3B2 machines sometimes, and I have 2 legal-size paper boxes full of documentation and binders, some never opened. I do not have any more of the 3B2 machines though. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Huntsman [mailto:BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 12:09 PM To: sales at elecplus.com Subject: RE: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory Hi there! Sorry to bother you, as I see you're being bombarded... but since you mentioned AT&T terminals, by any chance do you have any 5620, 630, or 730 DMD terminals? Many thanks! -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus [sales at elecplus.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 9:56 AM To: 'Richard'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory Terminals include, but are not limited to: IBM Display Write systems Other IBM terminals Sun ITT TI Harris Lanier Wang Tandem Esprit Tektronix Motorola (these are new, never used) Sperry/Unisys HP Honeywell AT&T DEC Wyse Farrington Matching kbds might be available. I do have several 10 pound kbds that went to the original DEC VT100 terminals. A few are missing one or more keycaps. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: Richard [mailto:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 6:50 PM To: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus Subject: Re: A few corrections/additions to the Kerrville inventory [off-list reply] In article <00a401cdbc58$12e25860$38a70920$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > LOTS of dumb terminals, some kbds. Hi Cindy, Any chance you could name a few make/models on the terminals? Nothing exhaustive, just a representative sample would be nice. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 12:32:45 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:32:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <014901cdbd02$0f2ddaa0$2d898fe0$@com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> <014901cdbd02$0f2ddaa0$2d898fe0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-110-00014-100-LC-PDS-10bT-10b2-Mac-Network-Car > d-/190745314482?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c694e84b > 2 > > This is not my listing, but I have 7 of these cards, I think pulled from > LCIIIs. $10 each plus shipping. Those will not physically fit an SE/30. -- From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 12:33:10 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:33:10 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <017001cdbd10$3959b840$ac0d28c0$@com> References: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> <017001cdbd10$3959b840$ac0d28c0$@com> Message-ID: Sounds like a fun kid in a candy store day. I was thinking about it again today and realized my math didn't add up so I'm actually fine for Dec 1 (I'm on-call the week of Thanksgiving not Dec 1st) if folks would like to make that our official day. I was going to say if folks wanted to carpool if local or anything that'd be an idea although if everyone's a packrat then it may not be useful to clutter your pre-home storage space. That said I'm guessing we might be a bit more spread out than this but I'm open to the suggestion or a helping hand if someone local needed help getting something into/out of their vehicle/place. Not sure why my wife's never been as happy as I am when having to help carry a 100lb system around the house. - John From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 7 13:39:26 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 19:39:26 +0000 Subject: COBOL manuals for Tops-10/TOPS-20??? In-Reply-To: <8827EF7C-CFB1-4B15-A00E-36D137A19C71@comcast.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8827EF7C-CFB1-4B15-A00E-36D137A19C71@comcast.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Mike Cesari Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 10:32 PM On Nov 6, 2012, at 7:06 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> There are no COBOL manuals on the PDP10 portion of Bitsavers at the >> moment. > There is a COBOL-74 manual on bitsavers here: > dec/pdp10/TOPS10_softwareNotebooks/vol10 Wow. I can't believe that I missed that, I really can't. There are also COBOL-68 manuals in the dec/pdp10/TOPS10 directory, as well as one so named explicitly in vol9. I need to get my brain checked, I guess. Thanks for pointing that out, and thanks to those who provided information off-line as well. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Nov 7 14:12:09 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 21:12:09 +0100 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2012-11-06 klockan 15:12 -0600 skrev Kevin Monceaux: > Mark, > > On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:06:25AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling off > > the collection. Her description of what is there includes: > > > > At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > > >Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. > > Would you, or Cindy, mind if I cross-post this to the Hercules-390 list? > The System 370 stuff could be of great interest to many Herculeans. > > Ojj. a 2/120 (chassi at least) without the qic tape. Or is it a 3/ ? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 7 14:15:36 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 20:15:36 -0000 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <017001cdbd10$3959b840$ac0d28c0$@com> References: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> <017001cdbd10$3959b840$ac0d28c0$@com> Message-ID: <020701cdbd24$a78c3b30$f6a4b190$@ntlworld.com> Being in the UK weight and size make many things prohibitive to ship, but the photos posted show what looks like an RD53 disk, and possibly an RD53/4 in a MicroVAX 2000. I am also on the lookout for replacement boards for a DEC H7140 PSU (from the PDP 11/24), a DEC KFQSA (M7769) board, a power supply for MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 and perhaps a DECserver 90M; if any of these are available I would be interested to know about them. There are some bigger DEC boxes, but even if I could afford to ship them I don't have anywhere to house them :-( Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > Sent: 07 November 2012 17:49 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > I have an Apple IIGS in the original box, includes 4 diskettes (Your Apple Tour > of the Apple ZIIGS, System disk ver 5.0.2, System tools, AppleShare File > Server setup disk), Apple IIGS owner's guide, System Software users guide > ver 5.0, Apple IIGS System disk users guide, AppleTalk Network Users Guide > for the Apple IGS, Quick Start Guide, Apple IIGS memory expansion card > owners guide. > > Monitors and kbds and mice are available, but you will have to tell me which > ones you want. Also have Apple Writer II printers, laser printers, modems, > etc. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:37 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > > Bu???, I want a //GS!!! :'( > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Tapley" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > > > All, > > in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took in > > 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. > > Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it may be > > that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or most of it may > > be there; I don't know. > > Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus > > hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they > > so desire. > > > >>Reply-To: Mark Tapley > >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 > >>Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. > >> > >>You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email>Elect > ronics > >>Plus, March 2001 > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email> > >>Electronics Plus, March 2001 > >>Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted > >>Nov 7, 2012 > >>by Mark Tapley > >>Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email>View > >>Album > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email&mode= > SLIDESHOW>Play > >>slideshow > >> > > > > > > -- > > - Mark 210-379-4635 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > > inhabited by beings that don't have > > technology adequate to stop them: > > > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 14:22:43 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:22:43 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Skoglund Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 2:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) tis 2012-11-06 klockan 15:12 -0600 skrev Kevin Monceaux: > Mark, > > On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:06:25AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling > > off the collection. Her description of what is there includes: > > > > At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > > >Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. > > Would you, or Cindy, mind if I cross-post this to the Hercules-390 list? > The System 370 stuff could be of great interest to many Herculeans. > > Ojj. a 2/120 (chassi at least) without the qic tape. Or is it a 3/ ? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 14:33:42 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 15:33:42 -0500 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> Message-ID: <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 03:22 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System > 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 > large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I > could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? Yes. The magazines themselves, though, are VERY hard to find. There aren't many System/36 machines out in the wild these days, but those who do have them are typically hurting for those magazines. I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a dozen of the magazines with the machine. In any case, please don't trash the magazines. If there are no takers within your required timeframe, please let me know and I'll at least give them a home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 14:46:49 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 20:46:49 +0000 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> Message-ID: <970175717-1352321213-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-922119216-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Oh. I think I know those magazines. Just took me a bit to recognise the right term. Erik Klein has had some for sale on the vcgm for a while. I keep looking at them as a nice (improved from loose) storage solution lol. -----Original Message----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:22:43 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Skoglund Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 2:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) tis 2012-11-06 klockan 15:12 -0600 skrev Kevin Monceaux: > Mark, > > On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:06:25AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling > > off the collection. Her description of what is there includes: > > > > At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > > >Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. > > Would you, or Cindy, mind if I cross-post this to the Hercules-390 list? > The System 370 stuff could be of great interest to many Herculeans. > > Ojj. a 2/120 (chassi at least) without the qic tape. Or is it a 3/ ? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 7 14:53:28 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:53:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 7 November 2012 14:35, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? >> I have 2 of them... See here for pic and description >> http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html > > No, I'm afraid not. That is for connecting Macs with onboard Ethernet > that uses Apple's weird connector to more standard cabling. > > It's not actually an Ethernet adaptor in its own right, which adds an > Ethernet interface to machines which don't have it already. The AAUI connector is basically Apple's miniaturized version of the 15-pin DA-15 AUI connector which was originally used for 10Base-5 ethernet. External transceivers such as the M0437 are pretty much the same internally as a generic AUI to 10Base-2 or AUI to 10Base-T transceiver. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Attachment_Unit_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_Unit_Interface From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 14:43:58 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:43:58 -0200 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a > dozen of the magazines with the machine. Photos? :o) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 14:24:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 20:24:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121106160250.B1616@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 6, 12 04:16:10 pm Message-ID: > > > > There were, eventually, quite a few. I used the Corona/Cordata. > > > and the JLASER > > > and the Eiconscript (Postscript compatible and/or PCL) > > > I had a switchbox at the input of my printer. > On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Neat! I didn't know there were others. > > Postscript really is a wonderful thing. :-) > > I always assumed that it was a proprietary dialect of Forth. Err, well, you can push thiugs other than integers onto the stack in Postscript. > > Do you still have a LaserJet? Don't you actua;ly need a printer with the driect 'video' interface for those cards? For CX printers (Lasterjet, etc) that means removing the formatter board and wiring the 34 pin header on the DC controlelr board that conencted to the fomatter to a DC37 conenctor. And if you want, wiring some status LEDs to the appropriate conenctor on the DC controller. The result is a 'CX-VDO' printer. For SX printers (Lasterjet II,. etc), the original way to get this 'video' interfce was to replace the formatter board iwth a buffer board, whioch also includes the necessary DC37 socket. However, IIRC, there wa a3rd party board that fitted the optiaonal interface slot on Canon/HP formatter bords and which provided this interface whille leavign the formatter in position. I have never seen this board, though. The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this reason. > (I've got a few IIP's, but I don't want to deal with shipping those.) I suspec tthe origianl Laserjet is heaver. It's got a linear PSU with a massive transfomer for a start. Actually, models with internal formatters have _2_ massive transfromers in the bottom. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 7 14:59:28 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:59:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? >> I have 2 of them... See here for pic and description >> http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html > > Not for an SE/30, alas. Those are essentially AUI transceivers using > Apple's AAUI connector (a small-form-factor version of AUI pretty much > only found on Macs). They're handy for earlier Macs with built- in > Ethernet but no 10BaseT connector, like Quadras and early Power Macs. > Plenty of folks on this list may find them useful, though (but they're > not especially uncommon). Farallon also made some daisy-chainable AAUI transceivers under their EtherWave line but the ever decreasing price of 10Base-T hubs doomed them. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 14:57:59 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:57:59 +0000 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> Message-ID: <509ACB57.4020108@gmail.com> On 07/11/2012 20:22, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? The Magazines would be useful to some one with a S/36, S/38 or other IBM which has that sort of drive. You could plug two cartridges in the machine plus a "toast rack" affair which I think held three single disks. As well as the S/36 and S/38 I have also seen these drives on a Series/1. Not sure if the original AS/400 could also have this type of drive for data transfer. > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Skoglund > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 2:12 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > tis 2012-11-06 klockan 15:12 -0600 skrev Kevin Monceaux: >> Mark, >> >> On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:06:25AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: >> >>> That warehouse is now closing, and Cindy, the proprietor, is selling >>> off the collection. Her description of what is there includes: >>> >>> At 9:15 -0600 11/6/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>>> Also cases and cases of software and documentation for System 370, old IBM. >> Would you, or Cindy, mind if I cross-post this to the Hercules-390 list? >> The System 370 stuff could be of great interest to many Herculeans. >> >> > Ojj. > > a 2/120 (chassi at least) without the qic tape. > > Or is it a 3/ ? > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 15:02:34 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:02:34 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <020701cdbd24$a78c3b30$f6a4b190$@ntlworld.com> References: <782B8F7DF5F54375B5D20C09D998B923@tababook> <017001cdbd10$3959b840$ac0d28c0$@com> <020701cdbd24$a78c3b30$f6a4b190$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01b601cdbd2b$35a806a0$a0f813e0$@com> Hmm. There are 2 DEC PDP11, one is in original box and has lots of support items. I seem to recall it being about knee-tall and fairly heavy. I will have to dig them out. I also have these items already pulled and readily available, but I don't have a clue on testing them: Rainbow 100 PC278-A DecMate II DSRVB-B x 2 DFMZA-BA BNE34-40 new in box x 2 The RD54 I scrapped abt 18 months ago, sorry. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 2:16 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) Being in the UK weight and size make many things prohibitive to ship, but the photos posted show what looks like an RD53 disk, and possibly an RD53/4 in a MicroVAX 2000. I am also on the lookout for replacement boards for a DEC H7140 PSU (from the PDP 11/24), a DEC KFQSA (M7769) board, a power supply for MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 and perhaps a DECserver 90M; if any of these are available I would be interested to know about them. There are some bigger DEC boxes, but even if I could afford to ship them I don't have anywhere to house them :-( Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > Sent: 07 November 2012 17:49 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > I have an Apple IIGS in the original box, includes 4 diskettes (Your > Apple Tour > of the Apple ZIIGS, System disk ver 5.0.2, System tools, AppleShare > File Server setup disk), Apple IIGS owner's guide, System Software > users guide ver 5.0, Apple IIGS System disk users guide, AppleTalk > Network Users Guide for the Apple IGS, Quick Start Guide, Apple IIGS > memory expansion card owners guide. > > Monitors and kbds and mice are available, but you will have to tell me which > ones you want. Also have Apple Writer II printers, laser printers, modems, > etc. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:37 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > > Bu???, I want a //GS!!! :'( > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Tapley" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) > > > > All, > > in response to a couple of requests, I have posted the photos I took > > in 2001; see the URL below, and let me know if it doesn't work. > > Please be aware that these are more than a decade out of date; it > > may be that none of the pictured equipment is still available, or > > most of it may > > be there; I don't know. > > Also, please be aware that this is just me posting; Electronics Plus > > hasn't endorsed or requested this, and I'll remove it immediately if they > > so desire. > > > >>Reply-To: Mark Tapley > >>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:37:20 +0000 > >>Subject: Mark Tapley shared an album with you. > >> > >>You are invited to view Mark Tapley's photo album: > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email>Elect > ronics > >>Plus, March 2001 > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email> > >>Electronics Plus, March 2001 > >>Kerrville, Texas, Electronics Plus - posted Nov 7, 2012 by Mark > >>Tapley Photos from the turn of the centurly in Kerrville > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email>View > >>Album > >> 51&target > =ALBUM&id=5808094307468269041&authkey=Gv1sRgCK- > o65To75OOlAE&feat=email&mode= > SLIDESHOW>Play > >>slideshow > >> > > > > > > -- > > - Mark 210-379-4635 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that > > don't have technology adequate to stop them: > > > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: > 11/05/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: > 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Nov 7 15:07:09 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:07:09 +0100 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> Message-ID: <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-11-07 klockan 14:22 -0600 skrev Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus: > There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 > > Ah, sorry but no im referring to Mark's picture collection on picassa. AT the bottom row is something i very much recognize (have a Ellemtel 2/120 veteran.) PS Ellemtel is the old coop between LME (Ericsson for americans) and Kungliga Tele- och telegrafstyrelsen (Royal Swedish State Telecom administration/authority) DS From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 15:31:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:31:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121107132905.H34374@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do you still have a LaserJet? > Don't you actua;ly need a printer with the driect 'video' interface for > those cards? For CX printers (Lasterjet, etc) that means removing the > formatter board and wiring the 34 pin header on the DC controlelr board > that conencted to the fomatter to a DC37 conenctor. And if you want, > wiring some status LEDs to the appropriate conenctor on the DC > controller. The result is a 'CX-VDO' printer. > For SX printers (Lasterjet II,. etc), the original way to get this > 'video' interfce was to replace the formatter board iwth a buffer board, > whioch also includes the necessary DC37 socket. However, IIRC, there wa > a3rd party board that fitted the optiaonal interface slot on Canon/HP > formatter bords and which provided this interface whille leavign the > formatter in position. I have never seen this board, though. Tall Tree used toi sell them > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges > are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this reason. How many times can they be refilled ? > > (I've got a few IIP's, but I don't want to deal with shipping those.) > I suspec tthe origianl Laserjet is heaver. quite a bit. the IIP (and IIIP) were lightweight "home" printers for people who didn't want the size, weight, and price of the "real" laserjets. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 15:32:00 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:32:00 -0600 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> Message-ID: <01ba01cdbd2f$527a9410$f76fbc30$@com> We have boxes and boxes of transceivers here. Any particular pn you are looking for? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 2:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> I am going to show my ignorance here, but would a M0437 be of any use? >> I have 2 of them... See here for pic and description >> http://www.welovemacs.com/m0437.html > > Not for an SE/30, alas. Those are essentially AUI transceivers using > Apple's AAUI connector (a small-form-factor version of AUI pretty much > only found on Macs). They're handy for earlier Macs with built- in > Ethernet but no 10BaseT connector, like Quadras and early Power Macs. > Plenty of folks on this list may find them useful, though (but they're > not especially uncommon). Farallon also made some daisy-chainable AAUI transceivers under their EtherWave line but the ever decreasing price of 10Base-T hubs doomed them. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Nov 7 15:35:48 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:35:48 +0100 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1352324148.12199.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> l?r 2012-11-03 klockan 21:06 -0400 skrev Scott Quinn: > Richard writes: > > >Do you mean the client is running on IRIX and the server is on anothermachine? > Yes > > >I don't see any > >reason why any X client on one machine wouldn'tdisplay properly on another machine, so long as > >the X client wasn'tassuming the presence of extensions and was properly respecting theVisual > >of the target display. > > I figured that as well, and I haven't had any problems with Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc. doing remote displays > to a different "brand" X-server, nor have I had any problems with IRIX -> IRIX, but mix up IRIX > and others and I have had trouble. > > Linux is probably the worst - X.org server. I'll log in just fine, be working fine, no artifacts, then boom > X reset and I'm back at the XDM prompt. This works with different versions of Linux (mostly Debian), > different graphics in the X-server machine (ATi (shudder) and nVidia), different net cables, different > switches, different SGI boxes. > > Mac System 10.4 is missing parts - the first thing I noticed after login was that the toolchest was missing > the text on about half of the selections. Going back and forth over it will cause some more to show up for a while. > > Solaris 10/ Xsun (FFB) had red rectangular artifacts. Only tried that one once. > > No one else has a problem with IRIX clients on other X-servers? I personally just now have a problem with Xorg, current mozilla showing a big jpg (4000x4000 px) and a Nvidia card (nv20 so nouveau driver.) It is garanted X server crash (segfault inside libexa.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 15:36:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 16:36:13 -0500 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509AD44D.1080003@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 03:43 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a >> dozen of the magazines with the machine. > Photos? :o) I'll have to clean up that area of the building and take a few pics. Remind me in a couple of days and I'll do that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 15:33:31 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 19:33:31 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: Message-ID: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges > are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this > reason. These are easy to find in Brazil...Lots of copiers (Canon PC-1 comes to mind) uses that. If I may serve you... From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 16:13:36 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:13:36 -0600 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121107132905.H34374@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121107132905.H34374@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01c301cdbd35$22400630$66c01290$@com> No, the HPII cartridges are very readily available, and cheap. http://www.inkjetsuperstore.com/92295A-10?utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CLjwqqLwvbMCF eiPPAodIQoAlg&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=hp-toner+cartridge-g&utm_term=9 2295a Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 3:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do you still have a LaserJet? > Don't you actua;ly need a printer with the driect 'video' interface > for those cards? For CX printers (Lasterjet, etc) that means removing > the formatter board and wiring the 34 pin header on the DC controlelr > board that conencted to the fomatter to a DC37 conenctor. And if you > want, wiring some status LEDs to the appropriate conenctor on the DC > controller. The result is a 'CX-VDO' printer. > For SX printers (Lasterjet II,. etc), the original way to get this > 'video' interfce was to replace the formatter board iwth a buffer > board, whioch also includes the necessary DC37 socket. However, IIRC, > there wa a3rd party board that fitted the optiaonal interface slot on > Canon/HP formatter bords and which provided this interface whille > leavign the formatter in position. I have never seen this board, though. Tall Tree used toi sell them > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner > cartridges are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this reason. How many times can they be refilled ? > > (I've got a few IIP's, but I don't want to deal with shipping > > those.) > I suspec tthe origianl Laserjet is heaver. quite a bit. the IIP (and IIIP) were lightweight "home" printers for people who didn't want the size, weight, and price of the "real" laserjets. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 16:15:50 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:15:50 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> Are you referring to the General Datacom modems in the last picture? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Skoglund Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 3:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) ons 2012-11-07 klockan 14:22 -0600 skrev Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus: > There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: > 11/05/12 > > Ah, sorry but no im referring to Mark's picture collection on picassa. AT the bottom row is something i very much recognize (have a Ellemtel 2/120 veteran.) PS Ellemtel is the old coop between LME (Ericsson for americans) and Kungliga Tele- och telegrafstyrelsen (Royal Swedish State Telecom administration/authority) DS ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 16:27:39 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:27:39 -0600 Subject: HP terminals Message-ID: <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com> There are 5 HP 700/96 terminals with keyboards. The keyboards are complete. 1 of the terminals has significant screen burn in white mode, but not in black mode. 4 terminals come up crisp and bright white, no screen burn, no scratched glass. Cases are very dirty right now, but I can clean them. Make offer? Prefer to ship within the US; I don't know how well these will do going overseas. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 7 16:35:17 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:35:17 -0600 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <509AD44D.1080003@neurotica.com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> <509AD44D.1080003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <01ca01cdbd38$29a0e180$7ce2a480$@com> About 30 magazines, 100+ loose 8" diskettes. Somebody make offer? These were used with a System/36. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 3:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) On 11/07/2012 03:43 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a >> dozen of the magazines with the machine. > Photos? :o) I'll have to clean up that area of the building and take a few pics. Remind me in a couple of days and I'll do that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2742 / Virus Database: 2617/5875 - Release Date: 11/05/12 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 16:55:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 17:55:22 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> References: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> Message-ID: <509AE6DA.6040704@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 04:33 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges >> are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this >> reason. > > These are easy to find in Brazil...Lots of copiers (Canon PC-1 comes > to mind) uses that. If I may serve you... The PC-1 copier cartridges WILL NOT WORK in a Laserjet. They are physically compatible, but they do not work. Can you get CX engine cartridges down there? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 16:56:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:56:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> References: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> Message-ID: <20121107145132.T34374@shell.lmi.net> > > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges > > are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this > > reason. On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > These are easy to find in Brazil...Lots of copiers (Canon PC-1 comes to > mind) uses that. If I may serve you... Actually, NO!!! They look the same, but do not fit. Perhaps some trivial mod? In addition, the toner is different "polarity". switching the wrong toner on refilling gives a very poor quality reverse image. BTW, Who wants a Canon PC10/20 SERVICE MANUAL? (It's on my desk right now; I don't know where the 24/25 one is) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From poc at pocnet.net Wed Nov 7 16:57:30 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 23:57:30 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <9FBD1B90-DE2B-4633-986A-ABF85251DC82@gmail.com> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> <9FBD1B90-DE2B-4633-986A-ABF85251DC82@gmail.com> Message-ID: Am 07.11.2012 um 16:58 schrieb David Riley: > There are some video controllers that allow the internal display to > be used > for 4-bit gray (or was it 4-color? I can't remember) A B/W CRT can't display color. :wq! PoC From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 16:58:08 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:58:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <01c301cdbd35$22400630$66c01290$@com> References: <20121107132905.H34374@shell.lmi.net> <01c301cdbd35$22400630$66c01290$@com> Message-ID: <20121107145649.A34374@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > No, the HPII cartridges are very readily available, and cheap. The II uses the SX, not the CX engine and associated cartridges. (and the IIP uses another different one. LX? ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 17:10:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:10:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk drive manuals Message-ID: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> I need to get rid of 60 boxes of stuff, and clear out my office. First up are some disk drive manuals. Pickup free in Berkeley, or pay priority mail, rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com (originals except where specified otherwise, although some of the originals appear to have been originally printed with a copier) Fujitsu "M2301B/M2302B : Microdisk Drives : CE Manual" xerox handwritten "LSI Version" MPI "Flexible disk drive Model 51/52 Product Manual" xerox copy Mitsubishi "Double-Sided Double Density Flexible Disk Drive M2894-63 : Standard Specifications" Seagate: (In generic binder): "ST506/412 OEM Manual" 36 pages 5.25" x 8.5" two holes drilled for fitting in generic 3 hole binder Feb 82 "ST506 Maintenance Manual" 53 pages 8.5 X 11 XEROGRAPHIC copy May 1982 (in another generic binder): Shugart: "8 Inch Floppy Disks Format Manual" December 1981 Stapled and drilled for binder, blue cover Business Reply cards - "Technical Publications Suggestion Form"! "The Headstrong Product Family" 10/79 11 x 25.5 double sided folded to 8.5X11 Pictures and "Comparative Detailed Specifications For All Shugart Disk Drives" "SA400 minifloppy(tm) Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual" 8.5 X 11 Saddle stitched (and drilled) 2/77 "SA400 minifloppy(tm) Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual" "Revision 5" 8.5 X 11 Saddle stitched (and drilled) 2/77 Sony: dozen loose xerox pages ""This chapter provides information on the standard disk drive fitted within the Apricot, the Sony OA-D31V . . ." (3.5" 70 track 600RPM, . . . Page 4,5 is "Interface Connection", with hand-written pin numbers added) Teac "Mini Flexible Disk Drive Specification : FD55A, FD55B, FD-55E, FD-55F, FD-55G" [what would the FD-55C and FD-55D be?] Xerographic copy. Comb (GNC) binding Weltec: "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 17:23:31 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:23:31 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> <509AE6DA.6040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > The PC-1 copier cartridges WILL NOT WORK in a Laserjet. They are > physically compatible, but they do not work. Why? > Can you get CX engine cartridges down there? Sure, they are Canon originals, and not expensive, around $30 each. How much do you need? If you're not in a hurry, I may send them thru a friend going to USA. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 17:29:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:29:37 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <012b01cdbcf5$27ef3550$77cd9ff0$@com> <013901cdbcfc$0df8ebd0$29eac370$@com> <9FBD1B90-DE2B-4633-986A-ABF85251DC82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1C36AAB1-7671-4B59-9C4C-08638018EB2A@gmail.com> On Nov 7, 2012, at 17:57, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Am 07.11.2012 um 16:58 schrieb David Riley: > >> There are some video controllers that allow the internal display to be used >> for 4-bit gray (or was it 4-color? I can't remember) > > > A B/W CRT can't display color. Haha, yes, sorry. Meant 4-level (I'm still use to calling 2-bit "4-color", so it stuck). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 18:51:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 16:51:14 -0800 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> On 11/07/2012 03:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Teac "Mini Flexible Disk Drive Specification : FD55A, FD55B, FD-55E, > FD-55F, FD-55G" [what would the FD-55C and FD-55D be?] > Xerographic copy. Comb (GNC) binding FD-55C (FH, SS 96tpi) -55D (FH, DS, 96tpi). You'd occasionally see them retrofitted on Apple II setups. > Weltec: > "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : > Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 Betcha that Al K. would like that one for Bitsavers. A unique and utterly forgettable piece of PC history. Amiga did a similar thing on their systems for 3.5 HD floppies (i.e. not raise the bridge, but lowered the water). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 19:13:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:13:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Weltec: > > "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : > > Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 > Betcha that Al K. would like that one for Bitsavers. A unique and > utterly forgettable piece of PC history. Amiga did a similar thing on > their systems for 3.5 HD floppies (i.e. not raise the bridge, but > lowered the water). I just sealed the box on a stack of stuff for Al. Maybe I should hold off on Post office until I hear from him again? HOWEVER, although the "1.2m in XT" drive is the only Weltec that I really remember, this doesn't seem to be it! The manual says 300/360 RPM. The drive described is a normal 1.2M ("-A" V "-R" are READY V Disk Change) From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Nov 7 19:48:14 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 02:48:14 +0100 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> Message-ID: <1352339294.8633.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-11-07 klockan 16:15 -0600 skrev Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus: > Are you referring to the General Datacom modems in the last picture? > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > Ah, sorry but no im referring to Mark's picture collection on picassa. > > AT the bottom row is something i very much recognize (have a Ellemtel > 2/120 veteran.) > > PS > Ellemtel is the old coop between LME (Ericsson for americans) and Kungliga Tele- och telegrafstyrelsen (Royal Swedish State Telecom > administration/authority) > DS > No, at to the left at bottom row. The machine is on its side, with a blind over the tape opening. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 7 19:51:35 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 17:51:35 -0800 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/12 5:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Weltec: >>> "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : >>> Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 >> Betcha that Al K. would like that one for Bitsavers. A unique and >> utterly forgettable piece of PC history. well, there are some things even I won't take. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Nov 7 19:53:44 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 02:53:44 +0100 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> Message-ID: <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-11-07 klockan 16:15 -0600 skrev Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus: > Are you referring to the General Datacom modems in the last picture? > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > check: https://picasaweb.google.com/103229486827589783951/ElectronicsPlusMarch2001#5808094907053545490 The photo is i think tilted, the machine is standing up on its coasters. Dark bluegray plastic front . From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 20:25:12 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 18:25:12 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> What is this thing http://www.ebay.com/itm/130799404434 ? IBM just made the typewriter for the JOSS right ? Are those DEC flip chip cards in there ? From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 20:49:17 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 18:49:17 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> On 11/7/2012 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > What is this thing http://www.ebay.com/itm/130799404434 ? IBM just > made the typewriter for the JOSS right ? Are those DEC flip chip cards > in there ? I answered some of my own questions. I found this http://192.5.14.43/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_memoranda/2006/RM5218.pdf which makes this look to be the electronics that sat inside the pedestal under the typewriter. Is that right ? I couldn't find the light panel in there though. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 7 20:52:25 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 02:52:25 +0000 Subject: COBOL manuals for Tops-10/TOPS-20??? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8827EF7C-CFB1-4B15-A00E-36D137A19C71@comcast.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A03F1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Rich Alderson Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:39 AM > From: Mike Cesari > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 10:32 PM >> On Nov 6, 2012, at 7:06 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> There are no COBOL manuals on the PDP10 portion of Bitsavers at the >>> moment. >> There is a COBOL-74 manual on bitsavers here: >> dec/pdp10/TOPS10_softwareNotebooks/vol10 > Wow. I can't believe that I missed that, I really can't. There are > also COBOL-68 manuals in the dec/pdp10/TOPS10 directory, as well as > one so named explicitly in vol9. Well, the COBOL-74 manual on Bitsavers is trashed beyond recovery, by DEC themselves it would appear. The manual is consecutively page-numbered, including pages from 2 updates. There are missing pages (no description of the RETURN verb, for example, though it's in the index) and duplicated pages in different faces. It's unusable as it stands. I can probably get what I need from the COBOL-68 manual. Just refreshing some bits in my tired old brain. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 7 21:00:18 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 19:00:18 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Nov 7, at 6:49 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/7/2012 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> What is this thing http://www.ebay.com/itm/130799404434 ? IBM just >> made the typewriter for the JOSS right ? Are those DEC flip chip >> cards in there ? > > I answered some of my own questions. I found this http:// > 192.5.14.43/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_memoranda/2006/ > RM5218.pdf which makes this look to be the electronics that sat > inside the pedestal under the typewriter. Is that right ? I > couldn't find the light panel in there though. At the bottom of page iii (pdf page 5) it says Johnniac and a JOSS console were retired to the Los Angeles County Museum in 1966. Anyone know the current status of this? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 21:12:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:12:12 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> <509AE6DA.6040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509B230C.7030907@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 06:23 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The PC-1 copier cartridges WILL NOT WORK in a Laserjet. They are >> physically compatible, but they do not work. > > Why? The toner is incompatible with the process that the CX engine uses. It is attracted to charges of the opposite polarity. >> Can you get CX engine cartridges down there? > > Sure, they are Canon originals, and not expensive, around $30 each. > How much do you need? If you're not in a hurry, I may send them thru a > friend going to USA. Well I have no CX-based printer anymore, but I hope to get one eventually. Let me know when your friend is heading here; maybe I'll ask you to send me a handful. Thank you for the thought! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 21:44:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 01:44:56 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> <509AE6DA.6040704@neurotica.com> <509B230C.7030907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8A33696E961D4436A0BEBDE2612E8004@tababook> > Well I have no CX-based printer anymore, but I hope to get one > eventually. Let me know when your friend is heading here; maybe I'll > ask you to send me a handful. Thank you for the thought! I believe I even have one sealed here at home. I don't know if it will still work flawlessly, but at least you have a dud for recharging... From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 7 21:51:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:51:40 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/12 7:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > At the bottom of page iii (pdf page 5) it says Johnniac and a JOSS console were retired to the Los Angeles County Museum in 1966. Anyone know the current status of this? > CHM may have it. I didn't find it with a quick catalog search. The manual is at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp-6/H-616_JOSSconsole_Mar66.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 7 21:59:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:59:40 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <509B2E2C.6090100@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/12 7:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/7/12 7:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> At the bottom of page iii (pdf page 5) it says Johnniac and a JOSS console were retired to the Los Angeles County Museum in 1966. Anyone know the current status of this? >> > > CHM may have it. I didn't find it with a quick catalog search. > The manual is at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp-6/H-616_JOSSconsole_Mar66.pdf > someone stuck that "IBM" plate on it. it is clearly made by DEC considering it is in MO, I bet the "Wes" referred to on the Dymo tape is Wes Clark they also got the date completely wrong in the listing, it is circa 1966 From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 22:40:19 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:40:19 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <509B2E2C.6090100@bitsavers.org> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> <509B2E2C.6090100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <509B37B3.8070906@gmail.com> On 11/7/2012 7:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > someone stuck that "IBM" plate on it. it is clearly made by DEC > considering it is in MO, I bet the "Wes" referred to on the Dymo tape > is Wes Clark > they also got the date completely wrong in the listing, it is circa 1966 > I figured all that from the manual. Except the Wes Clark part of course. What do you think is then ? Re-purposed parts from a ROSS console or prototype stuff ? Looks like the guts from a console stuck in a cheap 19" rack. If it is tied to Wes it's important then I'd guess. Hopefully someone saves it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 23:06:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 00:06:41 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <8A33696E961D4436A0BEBDE2612E8004@tababook> References: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> <509AE6DA.6040704@neurotica.com> <509B230C.7030907@neurotica.com> <8A33696E961D4436A0BEBDE2612E8004@tababook> Message-ID: <509B3DE1.3020004@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 10:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Well I have no CX-based printer anymore, but I hope to get one >> eventually. Let me know when your friend is heading here; maybe I'll >> ask you to send me a handful. Thank you for the thought! > > I believe I even have one sealed here at home. I don't know if it > will still work flawlessly, but at least you have a dud for recharging... Oh man, that brings back some memories. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 7 23:20:10 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:20:10 -0800 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <251F2977-351B-4265-9253-A1A0833D471F@aracnet.com> On Nov 7, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/7/12 5:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Weltec: >>>> "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : >>>> Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 >>> Betcha that Al K. would like that one for Bitsavers. A unique and >>> utterly forgettable piece of PC history. > > well, there are some things even I won't take. Say it isn't so! :) Zane From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 8 00:56:58 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 22:56:58 -0800 Subject: Johnniac/JOSS/IAS machines / was Re: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20248A54-9B75-4F75-9D82-1DB386C680A0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Nov 7, at 7:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/7/12 7:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> At the bottom of page iii (pdf page 5) it says Johnniac and a JOSS >> console were retired to the Los Angeles County Museum in 1966. >> Anyone know the current status of this? > > CHM may have it. I didn't find it with a quick catalog search. > The manual is at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp-6/H-616_JOSSconsole_Mar66.pdf It would be interesting if Johnniac has been saved, I don't recall knowing of any of the IAS clones surviving. Well, there it is at the CHM !: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JOHNNIAC "..being used almost continuously from 1953 for over 13 years before finally being shut down on February 11, 1966, logging over 50,000 operational hours. After two "rescues" from the scrap heap, the machine currently resides at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It appears it's on display, it shows up in the Visible Storage/ 40s-60s/one-of-a-kinds section: http://www.computerhistory.org/VirtualVisibleStorage/ Strange it didn't show up in your catalog search. A question would be whether CHM also has the earlier "prototype JOSS station" the report suggested went to LACM with Johnniac. From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:39:09 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:39:09 +0100 Subject: Just got a NewBrain... Message-ID: ... which is in great shape, except for a missing keycap (for the "J" key). Does anybody here have any spares that they'd be willing to part with? #|| Raymond #|| From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 8 01:40:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 00:40:01 -0700 Subject: Apple IIc? In-Reply-To: <54238.75.76.203.106.1352160942.squirrel@rittwage.com> References: <256279461-1352090869-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1804379758-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <0A3A5038-5537-44D0-B013-9B3946D376E3@xlisper.com> <4473839A72D943688D087C12892ED01A@tababook> <5098208D.7010107@brouhaha.com> <54238.75.76.203.106.1352160942.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <509B61D1.4070309@brouhaha.com> Pete Rittwage wrote: > I'm pretty sure you can see what those circuits do by looking at the Apple > II (or Plus) motherboards- at least for the IIe. :) For the IIe, and IIc it is mostly obvious. There are perhaps a few subtleties, though. But I'm pretty sure that I could program CPLD or FPGA equivalents that would work fine to replce them. For the IIgs, there's a lot more going on in some of the ASICs. The broad functionality is clear, but the details are not. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 8 01:44:22 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 00:44:22 -0700 Subject: COBOL manuals for Tops-10/TOPS-20??? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A0055@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <509B62D6.1070104@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > I need to deal with modifying some COBOL code in the Tops-10 and TOPS-20 > usage reporting software, and have no manuals. Yeah, COBOL is COBOL, but > the details (what is "DISPLAY-7" as opposed to "DISPLAY-9"?) are important. > > There are no COBOL manuals on the PDP10 portion of Bitsavers at the moment. Sure there are, for both CBOOL-68 and COBOL-74, in volumes 9 and 10 of the TOPS-10 Software Notebooks: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS10_softwareNotebooks/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 8 02:18:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 01:18:11 -0700 Subject: An ACI-90 / WD900 joins the stable. In-Reply-To: <509A1062.9000504@bluewin.ch> References: <509A1062.9000504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <509B6AC3.5090102@brouhaha.com> Jos Dreesen wrote: > The WD-9000 chipset contains these : > CP2151-B, CP2161B-02, CP2171-B10, CP2171-B12 and CP2171A-13, I > understand different combinations are around. The 10/12/13 Microm set is unfortunately very old, so I don't think it will run any "recent" releases of the WD Microengine software. There might have been even earlier sets, but the CP2171 Microm sets I've seen are: 10/12/13 14/15/16 14/15/17 14/15/18 -- required for operating system III.0 release H0 or later The "A" or B" in the suffix is just whether it is ceramic or plastic, respectively. Someone (maybe ACP Components?) was selling CP2171 chips of the various versions on eBay last year. I don't see any listed now, but perhaps they might still have some. The CP2151 "data" chip is AFAICT exactly the same as the CP1611 data chip used in the LSI-11 and WD16. However, the CP2161 "control" chip is definitely NOT interchangeable with the CP1621 of the LSI-11 or the CP1661 of the WD16; at the very least they have different PLA contents. I haven't been able to get a copy or image of a bootable diskette, unfortunately. Beyond that, it would be amazingly cool to get a copy of the Ada compiler; while the Ada compiler was apparently not too useful due to the inadequate memory address space of the Microengine, it was actually validated. From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Nov 8 05:32:11 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 12:32:11 +0100 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509B983B.2060602@update.uu.se> On 11/07/2012 09:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/07/2012 03:22 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System >> 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 >> large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I >> could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? > Yes. > > The magazines themselves, though, are VERY hard to find. There aren't > many System/36 machines out in the wild these days, but those who do > have them are typically hurting for those magazines. > > I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a > dozen of the magazines with the machine. > > In any case, please don't trash the magazines. If there are no takers > within your required timeframe, please let me know and I'll at least > give them a home. > > -Dave > Are these also used with the 5362, the "Compact 36" /P From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 8 05:57:58 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 05:57:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: <509B37B3.8070906@gmail.com> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> <509B2E2C.6090100@bitsavers.org> <509B37B3.8070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/7/2012 7:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> someone stuck that "IBM" plate on it. it is clearly made by DEC >> considering it is in MO, I bet the "Wes" referred to on the Dymo tape >> is Wes Clark >> they also got the date completely wrong in the listing, it is circa >> 1966 > > I figured all that from the manual. Except the Wes Clark part of course. > What do you think is then ? Re-purposed parts from a ROSS console or > prototype stuff ? Looks like the guts from a console stuck in a cheap > 19" rack. If it is tied to Wes it's important then I'd guess. Hopefully > someone saves it. Just for the record, that isn't a "cheap" 19" rack. I have one of these that apart from the color is nearly identical that I got from someone who used to build wirewrapped boards. IIRC mine was made by either BUD or Hammond, but I can't remember which right now. http://www.budind.com/view/Rack+Equipment/Table+Top+Rack http://www.hammondmfg.com/rrtt.htm From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 10:00:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:00:24 -0500 Subject: IBM System/36, was Re: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509BD718.4090506@neurotica.com> On 11/07/2012 03:43 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a >> dozen of the magazines with the machine. > Photos? :o) I haven't gotten around to this yet, but there are some old pictures of the same system on my website, along with the story of its acquisition a few years ago: http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/IBM_System/36 -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 8 10:07:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 08:07:36 -0800 Subject: Has anyone heard from Dave Dunfield? Message-ID: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> I tried sending a message to him at the dave12 address and didn't hear anything back then I noticed he hasn't posted anything here since March. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 10:10:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:10:31 -0500 Subject: Warehouse sale, Kerrville, Texas, December 1 (?) In-Reply-To: <509B983B.2060602@update.uu.se> References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <509AC5A6.9070806@neurotica.com> <509B983B.2060602@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <509BD977.6020307@neurotica.com> On 11/08/2012 06:32 AM, Pontus wrote: >>> There is no computer, just boxes of 8" floppy diskettes from a System >>> 36 machine, with "magazines" that hold 10 floppys each. Altogether 5 >>> large boxes. There are no original operating system disks that I >>> could see. Perhaps someone could use the diskettes? >> Yes. >> >> The magazines themselves, though, are VERY hard to find. There aren't >> many System/36 machines out in the wild these days, but those who do >> have them are typically hurting for those magazines. >> >> I myself have a System/36, but I am lucky in that I received about a >> dozen of the magazines with the machine. >> >> In any case, please don't trash the magazines. If there are no takers >> within your required timeframe, please let me know and I'll at least >> give them a home. > > Are these also used with the 5362, the "Compact 36" The 5362 has an 8" floppy drive, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a disk changer, so I'd say no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 10:38:03 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 08:38:03 -0800 Subject: IBM JOSS Console In-Reply-To: References: <20121106211223.GA2892@RawFedDogs.net> <1352319129.12199.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01b501cdbd25$a456bd40$ed0437c0$@com> <1352322429.12199.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <01c401cdbd35$71c78570$55569050$@com> <1352339624.8633.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <509B1808.2040804@gmail.com> <509B1DAD.4040808@gmail.com> <07C36E2E-3BFC-4427-93C2-76CA3BBCC6DD@cs.ubc.ca> <509B2C4C.3070306@bitsavers.org> <509B2E2C.6090100@bitsavers.org> <509B37B3.8070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <509BDFEB.1050506@gmail.com> On 11/8/2012 3:57 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > Just for the record, that isn't a "cheap" 19" rack. I have one of > these that apart from the color is nearly identical that I got from > someone who used to build wirewrapped boards. IIRC mine was made by > either BUD or Hammond, but I can't remember which right now. Hah. Sorry I meant no offense to the equipment rack crowd here. I am sure it is a very nice rack. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Nov 8 12:13:08 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 18:13:08 +0000 Subject: COBOL manuals for Tops-10/TOPS-20??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2523E4F0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > I need to deal with modifying some COBOL code in the Tops-10 and TOPS-20 > usage reporting software, and have no manuals. Yeah, COBOL is COBOL, but > the details (what is "DISPLAY-7" as opposed to "DISPLAY-9"?) are important. > There are no COBOL manuals on the PDP10 portion of Bitsavers at the moment. I wanted to post earlier but was afraid my decades old human memory had some bit rot! And I never did much COBOL to begin with. DISPLAY-6 is SIXBIT DISPLAY-7 is ASCII DISPLAY-9 is EBCDIC RECORDING MODE takes precedence over USAGE. Page 3-21 http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS10_softwareNotebooks/vol09/AA-5057B-TK_COBOL-68_Language_Manual_Aug81.pdf From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 12:56:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 10:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Has anyone heard from Dave Dunfield? In-Reply-To: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I asked myself about a month ago. From: Al Kossow I tried sending a message to him at the dave12 address and didn't hear anything back then I noticed he hasn't posted anything here since March. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 8 13:03:49 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 11:03:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Has anyone heard from Dave Dunfield? In-Reply-To: <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I asked myself about a month ago. > ..and I suspect the answer was, "Hurr! Ponies!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 13:20:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 11:20:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Has anyone heard from Dave Dunfield? In-Reply-To: References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1352402455.88603.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> just be calm and call the doctor to adjust your meds. I'm pulling for you Genie. From: geneb On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I asked myself about a month ago. > ..and I suspect the answer was, "Hurr!? Ponies!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 13:56:13 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: IRIX remote display In-Reply-To: <1352324148.12199.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <8CF883FB572CD44-BD0-8E76@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <1352324148.12199.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: In article <1352324148.12199.6.camel at compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org>, Stefan Skoglund writes: > It is garanted X server crash (segfault inside libexa.) Looks like this library: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 14:36:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 12:36:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: More stuff (11/8A Including Microsoft Installable File Systems and HPFS!) In-Reply-To: <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> Pickup free in Berkeley, or Priority Mail rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 "Microsoft University", "Installable File Systems and HPFS" Large FANCY (but slightly warped) Microsoft University Lecture Series binder with printout of the foils and notes for a session of their "Lecture Series" (1990) Also includes a 1/2" thick pad of Microsoft University Lecture Series paper "The Windows Resource Kit" (3.0) In big Microsoft Binder. "Teac FD-35F : Micro Flexible Disk Drive Specification" Page numbers (Chapter 1-1) start with 101! - 131 single sided pages no date "DeSmet C Development Package Manual" Version 2.3 C-WARE 1984 "BASIC_C Library Manual" Version 1.0 C-Source 1984 (A C language library for porting from BASIC code) in generic binder "Hard Drive Bible" VII Edition Corporate Systems Center (Martin Bodo) 1994 Hardcover elegant Almost new condition "The Computer Image" Donald Greenberg, et al Addison Wesley 1982 ISBN: 0-201-06192-9 Some shelf-wear to the dust jacket. Images and discussion of state of the art of computer graphics of 30 years ago. (Don't you have some piece of computer hardware that can function as a coffee table?) "Starfish Internet Sidekick" ["For Windows 95 and NT 4.0"] 1996 "20 Rebate! For any Sidekick User expires March 31, 1997" Box was opened, apparently never used includes 1/2" thick book (perfect binding) and CD-ROM One of the first retail boxes with "front cover flap" Philippe's picture in lower corner on back Compuserve flyer "DataSafe : The automated onl;ine backup anddisasterrecoveryservice forpersonalcomputers." opened, probably not used 3.5" in cardboard holder "Sidekick : for Windows" Version 2.0 Saddle stitched manual 3.5" disk in Borland box in retail shelf package opened, probably not used 1995 registration card and other loose crap, such as "Pump Up The Power Of Sidekick With Caller ID" "Quick Reference Guide : To the HP 3852A Data Acquisition And Control Unit" HP 1986 Wire-O binding 3.5x6" Daisy wheel 2.5" diameter "176? Courier C? 871?50001" brown plastic with green hub Abacus 13 column 5/2 cheap black wood frame multi-color beads 5 X 12" Installation & H/W Reference" style binder with slipcase (has jumper settings, ports, registers, etc) Samsung S286 computer Samsung 1986 5150 Diskettes in plastic binder holder: ATI VGA 640 Gene II Utilites V2.4 hand-labelled ""Setup" : For Samsung AT" on Micropro diskette "386 GeneII User'sManual" "Small Time Operator" Kamaroff ISBN: 0-917510-06-2 Bell Springs 1985 almost new From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 15:42:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 13:42:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: More books and stuff (11/8B) In-Reply-To: <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121108130956.S64617@shell.lmi.net> Pickup free in Berkeley, or Priority Mail rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument Interfacing" by Louis Mezei Prentice Hall 1989 ISBN: 0-13-519885-2Hardcover Like new "PC10/20 Series Service Manual" Revision 2Canon 1985 5.5X8.5" in 3rd party binder labelled "Denmark" (cf. Douglas Adams) (mentioned yesterday) "Microsoft Office-XP Resource Kit" Microsoft 2001 ISBN: 0-7356-1403-2 with unopened CD-ROm "Cisin" written on title page and top edge of book, otherwise like new "Running Microsoft Office97 : Strandard and professional" by Halvorson and Young Microsoft Press 1997 missing CD-ROM former library book, with appropriate markings, spine label, etc. discarded because it was never checked out "Networking Essentials : Second Edition : Hands-On, Self-Paced Training for Supporting Local and Wide Area Networks" Microsoft Press 1997 ISBN: 1-57231-527-X Label "Property of Jason" on back cover, and then library discard with some rubber stamping (nobody there opened it either) "TI-82 Graphics Calculator : Guidebook" TI 1983 Bent lower corner on front cover, otherwise like new "Computer Systems by J. Stanley Warford Jones and Bartlett 1999 ISBN: 0-7637-0794-5 Hard cover, Gilded stamp on front cover: "PROFESSIONAL REVIEW COPY : NOT FOR SALE" like new Back issues (random, such as Comdex '83 Fall Supplement)) of OEP (Japanese 10x14" thin glossy for English speaking market - "great job opportunity for blonde models in Japan") "Search Engines : For The World Wide Web" By Grossbrenners Peachpit Press 1999 ISBN: 0-201-35385-7 Library discard with shelf-wear "C Programming for Engineers & Computer Science" by Tan & D'Orazio McGraw hill "BEST" ("Basic Engineering Series and Tools") 1999 ISBN: 0-07-016911-X shelf-wear From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 8 15:57:11 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 13:57:11 -0800 Subject: ISO Advanced Digital S-100 Super Six EPROM Message-ID: <509C2AB7.5050207@bitsavers.org> I have recovered most of the Turbodos and CPM 3 files for the ADC Super Six On the CPM 3 disk were the sources for the boot EPROM, but there is an unreadable sector in the middle of it. Does anyone have this board? I bought one a while back, but it appears to have an OASIS boot rom on it. The files are up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/AdvancedDigitalCorp/super6_turbodos the zip file under /prom appears to be an OASIS disk image and eprom here is as much as I was able to recover --- title m'nprom Super Six Monitor Prom .z80 pbase: .phase 0f000h promsiz equ 800h sysbase equ 0000h zecho equ 0ee00h fdrdfg equ 0ee01h curadr equ 0ee02h hdflag equ 0ee04h hdsdhb equ 0ee05h stack equ 0ee64h page 60 ;ports sioad equ 00h sioac equ 01h siobd equ 02h siobc equ 03h fdce$ equ 0ch fdtrk equ 0dh fdsec equ 0eh fddat equ 0fh fddsd equ 14h baudrd equ 15 ++++++garbage for hd sdh reg LD (hdsdhb),A ; sector size 512, crc mode XOR A ;reset fpy read flag LD (fdrdfg),A LD SP,stac ++++++garbage getupc: IN A,(sioac) AND 1 ;char ready? JR Z,getupc ;no, loop gitupc: IN A,(sioad) AND 7fh ;mask CP 'a' ;lt 'a'? RET C ;yes, exit CP '{' ;lt '{'? RET NC ;yes, exit AND 5fh ;upcase RET gecho: LD A,0ffh LD (zecho),A CALL getupc PUSH AF LD A,(zecho) AND A JR NZ,xbarf POP AF RET xbarf: POP AF CP ' ' ;ctrl char? CALL NC,putc ;no, echo RET page strout: PUSH AF PUSH HL stroop: LD A,(HL) OR A ;end of string JR Z,strend ;yes, jump CALL putc INC HL JR stroop strend: POP HL POP AF RET crlf: PUSH HL LD HL,crlfst CALL strout POP HL RET abort?: CALL cetupc CP esc ;escape code? JP Z,exec ;yes, jump -- abort CP 8 ;??? RET NC JR abort? space: PUSH AF LD A,' ' JR hspit page hexit: PUSH AF RRCA RRCA RRCA RRCA CALL hex1 POP AF hex1: PUSH AF AND 0fh ADD A,90h DAA ADC A,40h DAA hspit: CALL putc POP AF RET hexhl: PUSH AF LD A,H CALL hexit LD A,L CALL hexit POP AF RET page getnum: CALL gecho CP ',' RET Z ;end of # CP ' ' RET Z ;end of # CP '0' RET C ;woops CP ':' JP C,isnum ;0 - 9 CP 'A' RET C ;woops CP 'G' CCF RET C ;woops SUB 007H ;convert A - F isnum: SUB 030H ;decode RET page get2n: PUSH BC PUSH DE LD C,0 LD E,0 nloop: CALL getnum ;number in? JR NC,nisnum ;yes, jump CP cr ;cr? SCF JR NZ,bad2n ;no, jump LD A,E OR A ;any input? JR NZ,got2n ;yes, jump SCF LD A,cr ;let's pretend it was a cr JR bad2n nisnum: CP 16 ;is it a number? JR NC,got2n ;no, jump INC E ;inc it LD B,A ;save # LD A,C ;get old ADD A,A ;x 2 ADD A,A ;x 4 ADD A,A ;x 8 ADD A,A ;x 16 ADD A,B ;add in new # LD C,A ; -- and all to c JP nloop got2n: LD A,C ;return in a bad2n: POP DE POP BC RET page get4n: PUSH DE LD HL,0 SCF CCF PUSH AF n4loop: CALL getnum JR NC,got4n CP cr JR NZ,bad4n CALL space JR good4n bad4n: POP AF SCF POP DE RET got4n: CP 16 JR NC,good4n ADD HL,HL ADD HL,HL ADD HL,HL ADD HL,HL LD E,A LD D,0 ADD HL,DE JR n4loop good4n: POP AF POP DE RET page tstmem: LD (HL),A CP (HL) RET Z PUSH HL LD HL,memerr CALL strout POP HL CALL hexhl JP exec page ;--------------------------------------- ; Load function -- Display & Substitute ;--------------------------------------- load: CALL get4n ;get the start adr JP NC,lodlop oops: LD HL,woops JP woopsy lodlop: LD (curadr),HL dot: CALL crlf ;display the current adr LD HL,(curadr) CALL hexhl CALL space LD A,(HL) CALL hexit CALL space CALL get2n ;get the response JP C,lodcmd CALL tstmem lodinc: LD HL,(curadr) ;inc the current adr INC HL JP lodlop lodcmd: CP cr ;cr terminates JP Z,exec CP ' ' ;space means inc JP Z,lodinc CP '-' ;dash means dec JP NZ,oops dash: LD HL,(curadr) ;dec the current adr DEC HL JP lodlop page ;----------- ; Negate DE ;----------- negde: PUSH AF LD A,D CPL LD D,A LD A,E CPL LD E,A INC DE POP AF RET page ;----------------------- ; Dump memory to screen ;----------------------- dump: CALL get4de CALL get4de CALL negde dloop: CALL crlf CALL hexhl CALL space dloop1: CALL space LD A,(HL) CALL hexit CALL inchlc CALL abortc CP 013H ;??? worthless CALL Z,abort? LD A,L AND 0fh JP Z,dloop JP dloop1 page ;------------------ ; Go to an address ;------------------ go: CALL get4de EX DE,HL JP (HL) ;----------------------- ; Display the help menu ;----------------------- help: LD HL,helpst CALL strout JP exec inchlc: PUSH HL ;cp hl to de -- abort if c, else inc hl ADD HL,DE JP C,exec POP HL INC HL RET page ;------------------- ; Move memory block ;------------------- move: CALL get4de PUSH DE CALL get4de CALL get4de EX DE,HL EX (SP),HL CALL negde mloop: LD A,(HL) EX (SP),HL CALL tstmem INC HL EX (SP),HL CALL inchlc CALL abortc JP mloop page ;------------- ; Fill memory ;------------- fill: CALL get4de CALL get4de CALL negde CALL get2n JP C,oops floop: CALL tstmem CALL inchlc JP floop get4de: CALL get4n JP C,oops EX DE,HL RET abortc: CALL cetupc ;abort on any char OR A JP NZ,exec RET ;--------------- ; In & Out port ;--------------- iport: CALL get2n JP C,oops LD C,A IN A,(C) CALL crlf CALL hexit JP exec oport: CALL get2n JP C,oops LD C,A CALL get2n JP C,oops OUT (C),A JP exec page ;---------------------------------- ; Boot -- floppy or hard disk exec ;---------------------------------- boot: CALL abortc CALL fddset CALL hdset fdlop: CALL abortc CALL fdrdy? ;ready to try a read? CALL NC,fdread ;yes, go try CALL hdread JR fdlop page ;------------- ; Floppy junk ;------------- fddset: XOR A OUT (fddsd),A ;8" sd CALL fdrdy? ;is the drive ready? JP C,try8dd ;no, jump LD HL,try8dd JR fdhome try8dd: LD A,8 ;8" dd OUT (fddsd),A CALL fdrdy? ;ready now? JP C,try5dd ;no, jump LD HL,try5dd JR fdhome try5dd: LD A,018H ;5.25' dd OUT (fddsd),A CALL fdrdy? ;ready now? RET C ;no, exit LD HL,fderrs fdhome: LD A,0fh ;restore command OUT (fdcmd),A CALL delay IN A,(fddsd) ;force wait for int IN A,(fdcmd) AND 018H ;seek or crc error? RET Z ;no, exit JP (HL) delay: LD A,3 delop: EX (SP),HL EX (SP),HL DEC A JR NZ,delop RET page ;------------- ; Ready check ;------------- fdrdy?: IN A,(fdcmd) RLA ;ready? RET C ;no, return LD HL,3E8H idxlop: IN A,(fdcmd) AND 2 ;index found? JR Z,idxfnd ;no, jump DEC HL LD A,L OR H ;timeout? JR NZ,idxlop ;no, jump SCF RET idxfnd: LD B,10 idxlp1: LD HL,3E80H idxlp2: IN A,(fdcmd) AND 2 ;index found? RET NZ ;yes, exit DEC HL LD A,L OR H ;timeout? JR NZ,idxlp2 ;no, loop DJNZ idxlp1 SCF RET page ;------------------ ; Floppy disk read ;------------------ fdread: LD A,0FFH ;indicate attempt to read LD (fdrdfg),A LD A,1 ;set sector 1 OUT (fdsec),A LD A,08CH ;read sector OUT (fdcmd),A LD HL,sysbase LD C,fddat fdrdlp: IN A,(fddsd) ;wait for data or int OR A ;data? JP P,fdrddn ;no, jump INI ;get a byte JP fdrdlp fdrddn: CALL delay IN A,(fdcmd) OR A ;errors? JP Z,sysbase ;no, jump to booted input fderrs: PUSH AF LD A,(fdrdfg) OR A ;have we tried to read? JR Z,getdsk ;no, jump fderr: LD HL,fderms ;floppy disk err msg out CALL strout POP AF CALL hexit JP exec getdsk: POP AF LD HL,dskask CALL strout LD A,0FFH ;reset floppy read flag LD (fdrdfg),A JP exec page ;------------------------ ; Hard disk test & setup ;------------------------ hdset: XOR A ;zap hd regs OUT (hdsec),A OUT (hdcylo),A OUT (hdcyhi),A INC A ;set for 1 sector OUT (hdscnt),A IN A,(hdsec) ;now, test for hdc1001 ctrlr LD B,A IN A,(hdcylo) OR B LD B,A IN A,(hdcyhi) OR B LD (hdflag),A ; -- and save result LD A,01EH ;do a restore OUT (hdcmd),A RET page ;---------------- ; Hard disk read ;---------------- hdread: LD A,(hdflag) OR A ;is a controller out there? RET NZ ;no, exit IN A,(hdcmd) AND 050H CP 050H ;ready & seek complete? RET NZ ;no, exit IN A,(hdcmd) OR A ;busy? RET M ;yes, exit hdrtry: LD A,(hdsdhb) ;set sdh OUT (hdsdh),A LD A,020H ;read sector cmd OUT (hdcmd),A hdbzlp: IN A,(hdcmd) OR A ;busy? JP M,hdbzlp ;yes, loop AND 1 ;error? JR NZ,hdbadx ;yes, jump LD HL,0 LD BC,8000h + hddat INIR JP sysbase page hdbadx: LD A,(hdsdhb) CP 20h ;sector size = 512? JP NZ,hderr ;no, go croak XOR A ;try 256 byte sector LD (hdsdhb),A LD A,1fh ;restore again OUT (hdcmd),A hdbzl1: IN A,(hdcmd) RL A ;busy? JR C,hdbzl1 ;yes, loop JR hdrtry hderr: LD HL,hdrms CALL strout IN A,(hderg) CALL hexit JP exec page signon: db cr,lf,' > ADVANCED DIGITAL CORP.' db cr,lf,' SUPER SIX Running',cr,lf,0 signom: db ' Monitor Version 3.4' db cr,lf,' June - 1983' db cr,lf,' Press "H" for help' db cr,lf,'Attempting to boot.......' db cr,lf,'Press any key to abort boot.',cr,lf,0 prompt: db cr,lf,' >',0 undef: db ' UNDEFINED',0 woops: db ' ????',0 memerr: db cr,cr,lf,'MEMORY WRITE ERROR AT ',0 ;??? db 'ERROR',0 db ' PAUSE',0 db '? ',0 db ' ABORTED',0 db 'STARTING ADDRESS:',0 db 'ENDING ADDRESS:',0 fderms: db cr,lf,'FDC COLD BOOT ERROR CODE ',0 dskask: db cr,lf,'INSERT DISK & PRESS B TO BOOT',0 hdrms: db cr,lf,'HDC1001 COLD BOOT ERROR CODE ',0 crlfst: db cr,lf,0 helpst: db cr,lf,'MONITOR COMMANDS :' db cr,lf,'B = Load disk boot loader' db cr,lf,'DSSSS,QQQQ = Dump memory in hex from S to Q' db cr,lf,'FSSSS,QQQQ,BB = Fill memory from S to Q with B' db cr,lf,'GAAAA = Go to address A' db cr,lf,'IPP = Input from port P' db cr,lf,'LAAAA = Load memory starting at A' db cr,lf,'MSSSS,QQQQ,DDDD = Move starting at S to Q to Addr. D' db cr,lf,'OPP,DD = Output data D to port P' db cr,lf,'ESC will terminate any command',0 page ;-------------------------- ; Function code jump table ;-------------------------- cmdtbl: db 'L' dw load db cr dw exec db '.' dw dot db '-' dw dash db 'D' dw dump db 'I' dw iport db 'O' dw oport db 'F' dw fill db 'G' dw go db 'M' dw move db 'H' dw help db 'B' dw boot db 0ffh .dephase ds promsiz-($-pbase),0ffh end From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 16:10:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 14:10:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: More books and stuff (11/8B) In-Reply-To: <20121108130956.S64617@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> <20121108130956.S64617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121108140927.U67782@shell.lmi.net> > "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument Interfacing" by Louis > Mezei Prentice Hall 1989 ISBN: 0-13-519885-2Hardcover Like new YES, it really IS about connecting sensors to directly input real-time into a spreadsheet! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:40:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:40:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 7, 12 02:53:28 pm Message-ID: > The AAUI connector is basically Apple's miniaturized version of the 15-pin > DA-15 AUI connector which was originally used for 10Base-5 ethernet. > External transceivers such as the M0437 are pretty much the same > internally as a generic AUI to 10Base-2 or AUI to 10Base-T transceiver. I beleive that while the AUI connecotr has a 12V power supply for the external transceiver, the AAUI has a 5V supply. So converting a transceiver from one to the other is more than just a connactor swap. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:42:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:42:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121107132905.H34374@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 7, 12 01:31:35 pm Message-ID: > > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges > > are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this reason. > > How many times can they be refilled ? I don't know. The CX cartridge will come apart (althouhg IIRC you nweed a tamperproof torx driver). My guess it it wil lstand a few refills -- if you can get hte 'loose' toner. Actually, finding empty cartridges is not that easy now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:45:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:45:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <813C6318E963482A89399F51C16B7262@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 7, 12 07:33:31 pm Message-ID: > > > > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges > > are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this > > reason. > > These are easy to find in Brazil...Lots of copiers (Canon PC-1 comes to > mind) uses that. If I may serve you... Ires you sure? I have heard, many times, that hte copier cartridges don't work in the printer and vice versa. Of course a copier does 'write for white', printer, at least the CX, does 'write fro black' The polarity of the voltage on some of the corona wires must be reversed as a result, but that wouldn't affect the cartridge. Whetehr the drum is differnet, or the toner, or whether there/s a more stirival change (like the contacts don't line up) I don't know, but I am told you jsut get blank sheets of paper if you use the wrong cartridge. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:48:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:48:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: from "Schindler Patrik" at Nov 7, 12 11:57:30 pm Message-ID: > A B/W CRT can't display color. Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS system???) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:54:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:54:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509B230C.7030907@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 7, 12 10:12:12 pm Message-ID: > > On 11/07/2012 06:23 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> The PC-1 copier cartridges WILL NOT WORK in a Laserjet. They are > >> physically compatible, but they do not work. > > > > Why? > > The toner is incompatible with the process that the CX engine uses. > It is attracted to charges of the opposite polarity. What is the physics behind that? AFAIK the toner is elkectrically neutral (it would be veyery odd if it wasn't). In fact IIRC the image formation and trasfer process in the CX (and every other laser printer I've been inside) requires the toner to be attracted ot electrodes of both polarities. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:35:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:35:24 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: Message-ID: >> How many times can they be refilled ? The plastic can last forever, if well cared. The comsumables (doctor blade, cylinder, toner, etc) are all easy to find From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 16:50:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 14:50:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121108144125.V68715@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't know. The CX cartridge will come apart (althouhg IIRC you nweed a > tamperproof torx driver). My guess it it wil lstand a few refills -- if > you can get hte 'loose' toner. > Actually, finding empty cartridges is not that easy now. a "friend" thought that he was doing me a favor by taking a dozen empties (CX and PC, only used up once) that I had, and trading them to a refiller for three "refilled" cartridges. Unfortunately, that "refiller" does his task by poking a hole in the side of the cartridge, pouring toner in, and putting a piece of tape loosely over the hole! AND, the ones that my friend received had been refilled MANY times. I may have a few more left (that my "friend" didn't find) I don't know off hand whether they are CX or PC ("Personal Copier") Are they so hard to find that it is worth shipping them?? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 8 16:50:59 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 23:50:59 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121108235059.979e1e9fde6492f4f4f50722@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:40:34 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I beleive that while the AUI connecotr has a 12V power supply for the > external transceiver, the AAUI has a 5V supply. So converting a > transceiver from one to the other is more than just a connactor swap. I have some AAUI to AUI converters. They have a PSU build in to provide 12 V power to the AUI side. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 16:53:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 14:53:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121108145128.U68715@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course a copier does 'write for white', printer, at least the CX, > does 'write fro black' The polarity of the voltage on some of the corona > wires must be reversed as a result, but that wouldn't affect the > cartridge. Whetehr the drum is differnet, or the toner, or whether > there/s a more stirival change (like the contacts don't line up) I don't > know, but I am told you jsut get blank sheets of paper if you use the > wrong cartridge. . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:56:36 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 20:56:36 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: Message-ID: I can always be wrong... :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 6:45 PM Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? >> >> >> > The problem with running a CX printer today is tht the toner cartridges >> > are essentialyl unobtainium. I don't use the one on my PERQ for this >> > reason. >> >> These are easy to find in Brazil...Lots of copiers (Canon PC-1 comes >> to >> mind) uses that. If I may serve you... > > Ires you sure? I have heard, many times, that hte copier cartridges don't > work in the printer and vice versa. > > Of course a copier does 'write for white', printer, at least the CX, > does 'write fro black' The polarity of the voltage on some of the corona > wires must be reversed as a result, but that wouldn't affect the > cartridge. Whetehr the drum is differnet, or the toner, or whether > there/s a more stirival change (like the contacts don't line up) I don't > know, but I am told you jsut get blank sheets of paper if you use the > wrong cartridge. > > -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:57:47 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 17:57:47 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The AAUI connector is basically Apple's miniaturized version of the 15-pin >> DA-15 AUI connector which was originally used for 10Base-5 ethernet. >> External transceivers such as the M0437 are pretty much the same >> internally as a generic AUI to 10Base-2 or AUI to 10Base-T transceiver. > > I beleive that while the AUI connecotr has a 12V power supply for the > external transceiver, the AAUI has a 5V supply. So converting a > transceiver from one to the other is more than just a connactor swap. I recall the same thing. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 17:30:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 15:30:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> > > A B/W CRT can't display color. On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS > system???) Or three B&W CRTs, each with it's own filter, and a "beam-splitter" (reversed to combine) in a projection system (~1970 projection TV) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 17:53:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 15:53:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <251F2977-351B-4265-9253-A1A0833D471F@aracnet.com> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> <251F2977-351B-4265-9253-A1A0833D471F@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> Weltec: > >>>> "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : > >>>> Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 > >>> Betcha that Al K. would like that one for Bitsavers. A unique and > >>> utterly forgettable piece of PC history. > On Nov 7, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > well, there are some things even I won't take. On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Say it isn't so! :) Although even Al wouldn't take the Weltec, he did take half a dozen, before I even posted them, including the Micropolis. VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy books on WordPerfect? From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 8 18:10:04 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 01:10:04 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0CBF8410-6C65-4A93-B835-84A70985E820@pocnet.net> Am 08.11.2012 um 21:48 schrieb Tony Duell: >> A B/W CRT can't display color. > > Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS > system???) Even then not. The picture of the phosphor stays monochrome, regardless of anything in front of it. :wq! PoC From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 18:23:07 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 16:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1352420587.74748.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> My computer's "On Switch" was my ex's "Off Switch." After 20 years of divorce she is now an E-Mail, and FB junkie and understands why I liked going on various BBS services in the late 80's. Al From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 18:40:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 19:40:57 -0500 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <0CBF8410-6C65-4A93-B835-84A70985E820@pocnet.net> References: <0CBF8410-6C65-4A93-B835-84A70985E820@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <05870896-62E0-45AC-A827-23C42A346C1C@gmail.com> On Nov 8, 2012, at 7:10 PM, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Am 08.11.2012 um 21:48 schrieb Tony Duell: > >>> A B/W CRT can't display color. >> >> Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS >> system???) > > > Even then not. The picture of the phosphor stays monochrome, regardless of anything in front of it. I think Tony's point (pathological corner case though it is) is that a B&W CRT *can* display color with such a filtering device; it's how early color TVs worked. The SE/30 has no method for doing so on any existing video controller, though I suppose one *could* make such a card if one were suddenly in possession of far too much spare time. Come to think of it, I believe it's also how modern DLP projectors work as well; if you move your eyes fast enough on a DLP projection, you can see the individual colors as ghosted images on your retina. It's not a CRT, of course, but the color concept is the same. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 18:47:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:47:04 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <1352420587.74748.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1352420587.74748.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <509C5288.7060002@neurotica.com> On 11/08/2012 07:23 PM, Al Hartman wrote: > My computer's "On Switch" was my ex's "Off Switch." > > After 20 years of divorce she is now an E-Mail, and FB junkie and > understands why I liked going on various BBS services in the late > 80's. Uh-oh. But do you want her back? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Nov 8 19:17:58 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 17:17:58 -0800 Subject: was:Networking a Macintosh SE/30 - color from B&W In-Reply-To: <05870896-62E0-45AC-A827-23C42A346C1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I remember reading in the 60's about a method that used flicker to make the visual system perceive muted colors on a monochrome TV screen. I think it had the small problem of causing eye strain, head aches and in extreme cases, seizures in susceptible individuals. Tek developed a LCD shutter tech in the 70's that displayed multiple colors from a mono screen, but that's not really color from a mono screen. --jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Riley Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 4:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 On Nov 8, 2012, at 7:10 PM, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Am 08.11.2012 um 21:48 schrieb Tony Duell: > >>> A B/W CRT can't display color. >> >> Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS >> system???) > > > Even then not. The picture of the phosphor stays monochrome, regardless of anything in front of it. I think Tony's point (pathological corner case though it is) is that a B&W CRT *can* display color with such a filtering device; it's how early color TVs worked. The SE/30 has no method for doing so on any existing video controller, though I suppose one *could* make such a card if one were suddenly in possession of far too much spare time. Come to think of it, I believe it's also how modern DLP projectors work as well; if you move your eyes fast enough on a DLP projection, you can see the individual colors as ghosted images on your retina. It's not a CRT, of course, but the color concept is the same. - Dave From poc at pocnet.net Thu Nov 8 19:24:27 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 02:24:27 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <05870896-62E0-45AC-A827-23C42A346C1C@gmail.com> References: <0CBF8410-6C65-4A93-B835-84A70985E820@pocnet.net> <05870896-62E0-45AC-A827-23C42A346C1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E8DE2F2-ACD9-4BC8-BD29-2670CE57CA63@pocnet.net> Am 09.11.2012 um 01:40 schrieb David Riley: >> Even then not. The picture of the phosphor stays monochrome, >> regardless of anything in front of it. > > I think Tony's point (pathological corner case though it is) > is that a B&W CRT *can* display color with such a filtering > device; it's how early color TVs worked. The SE/30 has no > method for doing so on any existing video controller, though > I suppose one *could* make such a card if one were suddenly > in possession of far too much spare time. > > Come to think of it, I believe it's also how modern DLP > projectors work as well; if you move your eyes fast enough > on a DLP projection, you can see the individual colors > as ghosted images on your retina. It's not a CRT, of > course, but the color concept is the same. Yes, but this is getting very theoretical, now. Adding an existing color video card for an external display to the SE/30 is much more practical and doesn't disturb the SE/30's unique look. :-) :wq! PoC From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Nov 8 21:04:58 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 19:04:58 -0800 Subject: was:Networking a Macintosh SE/30 - color from B&W In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did some poking aroung and found this: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=178624 I'm sure someone has a demo of this effect on the net. --jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jim davis Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: was:Networking a Macintosh SE/30 - color from B&W I remember reading in the 60's about a method that used flicker to make the visual system perceive muted colors on a monochrome TV screen. I think it had the small problem of causing eye strain, head aches and in extreme cases, seizures in susceptible individuals. Tek developed a LCD shutter tech in the 70's that displayed multiple colors from a mono screen, but that's not really color from a mono screen. --jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Riley Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 4:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 On Nov 8, 2012, at 7:10 PM, Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Am 08.11.2012 um 21:48 schrieb Tony Duell: > >>> A B/W CRT can't display color. >> >> Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS >> system???) > > > Even then not. The picture of the phosphor stays monochrome, regardless of anything in front of it. I think Tony's point (pathological corner case though it is) is that a B&W CRT *can* display color with such a filtering device; it's how early color TVs worked. The SE/30 has no method for doing so on any existing video controller, though I suppose one *could* make such a card if one were suddenly in possession of far too much spare time. Come to think of it, I believe it's also how modern DLP projectors work as well; if you move your eyes fast enough on a DLP projection, you can see the individual colors as ghosted images on your retina. It's not a CRT, of course, but the color concept is the same. - Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 02:19:27 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 08:19:27 +0000 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> <251F2977-351B-4265-9253-A1A0833D471F@aracnet.com> <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <509CBC8F.2010600@gmail.com> On 08/11/2012 23:53, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> Weltec: >>>>>> "Product Reference Manual : 5 1/4 Inch Half High Flexible Disk Drive : >>>>>> Models M16-A/M16-R" 1984 >>>>> Betcha that Al K. would like that one for Bitsavers. A unique and >>>>> utterly forgettable piece of PC history. >> On Nov 7, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> well, there are some things even I won't take. > On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Say it isn't so! :) > Although even Al wouldn't take the Weltec, he did take half a dozen, > before I even posted them, including the Micropolis. > > > VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. > WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy > books on WordPerfect? > I hope you don't have the same experience as me. I took some Microsoft Access 2 books to our local charity shop (they only accept computer books a few at a time) only to be asked by a friend for help with Access 2.... .... had to go and buy them back and post to him.... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From gyorpb at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 03:15:27 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 10:15:27 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <08C034F0-94B0-4299-B56C-8FDCF028B816@pocnet.net> References: <126CD631-48B1-496B-BB02-13F4E6AB92D1@pocnet.net> <03575332-6DE7-4CC4-A7BA-F5A12D87EF3A@pocnet.net> <2E332487-6CF5-4F2E-9C01-39DE67AC4FC2@gmail.com> <08C034F0-94B0-4299-B56C-8FDCF028B816@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <243E56FC-6D61-43F8-A10E-304F11835487@gmail.com> On 7 Nov 2012, at 2:13 , Schindler Patrik wrote: > Am 06.11.2012 um 23:19 schrieb Liam Proven: > >> If I can persuade or bribe Tony into fixing my SE/30, I shall be >> looking for an Ethernet board. And an external-monitor adaptor, lots >> of RAM and AU/X. ;?) > > That could be hard to find. The SE/30 has only one slot. It should be daisy-chainable but next problem could be space. And, I can't see how to mount ethernet- and monitor ports on the rear. .tsooJ -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- Joost van de Griek From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Nov 9 03:19:11 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:19:11 +0000 Subject: WTB: turbochannel graphics cards, DEC 3000 AXP Message-ID: <509CCA8F.7050806@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have any turbochannel graphics cards for the DEC 3000 AXP series? Ideally 24 bit, 8 bit would be fine, I need two or three. Regards, Mark. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 03:40:57 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 09:40:57 +0000 Subject: WTB: turbochannel graphics cards, DEC 3000 AXP In-Reply-To: <509CCA8F.7050806@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <509CCA8F.7050806@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On 9 November 2012 09:19, Mark Wickens wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have any turbochannel graphics cards for the DEC 3000 AXP > series? > Ideally 24 bit, 8 bit would be fine, I need two or three. > > Regards, Mark. I've a couple of PMAG-Bs but I'm in the UK for all your expensive shipping needs :/ -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 9 07:52:08 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: Remaining available S-100 board PCBs Message-ID: <005001cdbe81$699eb600$3cdc2200$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are four (4) S-100 SMB, eight (8) S-100 bus extenders, and two (2) S-100 8088 CPU board PCBs left. Here are the latest descriptions of these boards: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/SMB%20Board/S100%20Bus%20SMB.ht m http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Extender%20Board/Extender%20Boa rd.htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8088%20Board/8088%20CPU%20Board .htm The PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. The S-100 SMB is a dual PCB so it is $40. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! The S-100 SMB and S-100 bus extender boards are specialty items and it will be a long time before these are reordered. If you are considering getting one or more now is the time! I am stuck and need to move the remaining boards to free up the funds to do other board orders/reorders. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Nov 9 12:40:33 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:40:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <1630694025.1317206.1352486113983.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <605227042.1317358.1352486433229.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >From: Fred Cisin < cisin at xenosoft.com > > >VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. >WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy >books on WordPerfect? I remember reading about a public project (NOT Google) that is attempting to preserve discarded books. I think they were located in Oregon, but I could easily be wrong about that. You send them the books and they ship them to China to be scanned. They get the books back and then store the physical copy in containers (with nitrogen instead of air?) in a mine or cave somewhere . Sorry that I don't have more specifics about them, but some Googling should turn them up. Bob From doc at vaxen.net Fri Nov 9 13:01:59 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:01:59 -0600 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> <251F2977-351B-4265-9253-A1A0833D471F@aracnet.com> <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <509D5327.10200@vaxen.net> On 11/8/12 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. > WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy > books on WordPerfect? Well, winter's coming on... Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 9 13:02:16 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:02:16 -0800 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <605227042.1317358.1352486433229.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <605227042.1317358.1352486433229.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <509D5338.7040302@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/12 10:40 AM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > I remember reading about a public project (NOT Google) that is attempting to preserve discarded books. Sounds like what the Internet Archive is doing http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/01/internet-archive-books-brewster-kahle From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 9 14:21:07 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:21:07 +0100 Subject: WTB: turbochannel graphics cards, DEC 3000 AXP In-Reply-To: <509CCA8F.7050806@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <509CCA8F.7050806@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20121109212107.c94045fd465e07ef78d43e6c@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:19:11 +0000 Mark Wickens wrote: > Does anyone have any turbochannel graphics cards for the DEC 3000 AXP > series? > Ideally 24 bit, 8 bit would be fine, I need two or three. I think I have a spare PMAG-B in my TC parts box. Maybe a PX. Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany. Shipping to? UK? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:49:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:49:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm Message-ID: > > > > A B/W CRT can't display color. > On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS > > system???) > > Or three B&W CRTs, each with it's own filter, and a "beam-splitter" \begin{pedant} That's no _A_ B&W CRT. It's 3 of them \end{pedant} I suppsoe you could divde the screen of a single CRT into 3 sections. Put diffent filters over each scetion, and then combine them into a single image usign the 'reverse beamsplitter'. That's _A- B&W CRT displaying a colour image. > (reversed to combine) in a projection system (~1970 projection TV) Rhater later than that over here. I remember such sets (back projection onto a large-ish scren) in the 1990s here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:52:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:52:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <0CBF8410-6C65-4A93-B835-84A70985E820@pocnet.net> from "Schindler Patrik" at Nov 9, 12 01:10:04 am Message-ID: > > > Am 08.11.2012 um 21:48 schrieb Tony Duell: > > >> A B/W CRT can't display color. > > > > Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS > > system???) > > > Even then not. The picture of the phosphor stays monochrome, > regardless of anything in front of it. I owuld argue that 'display' implies the visual sensation caused to somebody looking at the device. And not the light emitted by one subsystem (the CRT). Are you goign to claim that an integral tripack colour slide is not a colour image because each of the layers is only monochrome? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:33:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:33:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More books and stuff (11/8B) In-Reply-To: <20121108140927.U67782@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 02:10:18 pm Message-ID: > > > "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument Interfacing" by Louis > > Mezei Prentice Hall 1989 ISBN: 0-13-519885-2Hardcover Like new > > YES, it really IS about connecting sensors to directly input real-time > into a spreadsheet! Eeek! This reminds me of a spreadsheet for the Jupiter Ace (a cheap UK home computer with the odd feature that it had Forth, not BASIC in ROM0. The cell formulae for this spreadsheet were actualyl Forth colon definitons, you could do anythign with them, including accessing I/O ports. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:36:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:36:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 8, 12 08:35:24 pm Message-ID: > > >> How many times can they be refilled ? > > The plastic can last forever, if well cared. The comsumables (doctor I am nto convinced. Many plastixs go brittle with age, asn the plsticiser evapourates. I would guess that for somethign like a toner cartridge the plastic used would not be chosen because it had a long lifetime. > blade, cylinder, toner, etc) are all easy to find Whaere? I have never seen spares for toner cartridges on general sale over here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:45:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:45:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121108145128.U68715@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 02:53:12 pm Message-ID: > . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if > you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it > in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:46:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 8, 12 05:57:47 pm Message-ID: > > I beleive that while the AUI connector has a 12V power supply for the > > external transceiver, the AAUI has a 5V supply. So converting a > > transceiver from one to the other is more than just a connactor swap. > > I recall the same thing. And o yet again Apple did not adhere to an accepted standard.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 14:16:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:16:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <05870896-62E0-45AC-A827-23C42A346C1C@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 8, 12 07:40:57 pm Message-ID: > I think Tony's point (pathological corner case though it is) > is that a B&W CRT *can* display color with such a filtering > device; it's how early color TVs worked. The SE/30 has no Precisely. Yes, I was being facetious. But when somebody claims somehtign is impossible, I immediately wonder if there's a way to do it :-) There were many scheams tried for colour TV displays before the design of the shaddowmask CRT. One that I rmemebr reading about hformed the image on a thin miga screen _inside_ the glass envelone. The screen was ridges on one face. The to side of each ridge was coated with one colour phosphor, the bott side with a diffent colour phosphor and the back of the screen with a thirt colour. There were 3 electron guns in necks coming off the bulb, each aiming at one of the phosphors. Each had its own defleciton system. I'll bet settifgn that up was a nightmare. > method for doing so on any existing video controller, though > I suppose one *could* make such a card if one were suddenly > in possession of far too much spare time. One microprocessor-based consumer device did use a spinnin gwheel of colour filters between the user's eyes and a monochrome CRT to get colour and even 3D effects (by allowing each eye in turn to view the same screen). Teh Vectrex, of course. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 9 15:32:36 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 15:32:36 -0600 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm Message-ID: <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> Color CRT monitors have 3 guns (red, blue, and green) but a mono monitor has only 1 gun. So even if you used filters to "fool" yourself into thinking color, it can't actually be color, because there is only 1 gun! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 > > > > A B/W CRT can't display color. > On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not even with a rotating disk of colour filters in front of it? (CBS > > system???) > > Or three B&W CRTs, each with it's own filter, and a "beam-splitter" \begin{pedant} That's no _A_ B&W CRT. It's 3 of them \end{pedant} I suppsoe you could divde the screen of a single CRT into 3 sections. Put diffent filters over each scetion, and then combine them into a single image usign the 'reverse beamsplitter'. That's _A- B&W CRT displaying a colour image. > (reversed to combine) in a projection system (~1970 projection TV) Rhater later than that over here. I remember such sets (back projection onto a large-ish scren) in the 1990s here. -tony ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5882 - Release Date: 11/08/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5882 - Release Date: 11/08/12 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 15:37:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2012 02:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if >> you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it >> in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. > > I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. At Canon school, they told us the toner/drum combo in the PC-1 worked in the opposite polarity to that in the CX engine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 9 16:10:29 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 14:10:29 -0800 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <509D5338.7040302@bitsavers.org> References: <605227042.1317358.1352486433229.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <509D5338.7040302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <509D7F55.4030606@jwsss.com> On 11/9/2012 11:02 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/9/12 10:40 AM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > >> I remember reading about a public project (NOT Google) that is >> attempting to preserve discarded books. > > Sounds like what the Internet Archive is doing > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/01/internet-archive-books-brewster-kahle > > the internet archive took over from project gutenburg I think, in that they did t want to collide with copyright, and google did From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 16:38:28 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 14:38:28 -0800 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> Message-ID: <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> On 9 Nov 2012, at 1:32 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Color CRT monitors have 3 guns (red, blue, and green) but a mono monitor has > only 1 gun. So even if you used filters to "fool" yourself into thinking > color, it can't actually be color, because there is only 1 gun! *cough* Trinitron *cough* -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From poc at pocnet.net Fri Nov 9 16:41:24 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:41:24 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <239E9962-8E52-4D57-BAA0-14042B4C1D73@pocnet.net> Am 09.11.2012 um 20:46 schrieb Tony Duell: >> I recall the same thing. > And o yet again Apple did not adhere to an accepted standard.... Yes, because the monitor port on Macs already had been DB15-F, years before Macs with Onboard-Ethernet came to life. Apple was eager to keep setting up Macs as easy as possible. That includes distinct connectors for distinct functions. Contrary, some vendors implemented standard-AUI on their NuBus Ethernet cards... :wq! PoC From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 16:47:49 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:47:49 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: Message-ID: > I am nto convinced. Many plastixs go brittle with age, asn the plsticiser > evapourates. I would guess that for somethign like a toner cartridge the > plastic used would not be chosen because it had a long lifetime. I have one some fifteen years old. Is that enough for you? > Whaere? I have never seen spares for toner cartridges on general sale > over here. In Brazil :o) From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 9 16:54:45 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 16:54:45 -0600 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <00f701cdbecd$36afdac0$a40f9040$@com> We have Sony Triniton monitors here, and I have repaired them, many years ago. If I recall correctly, they still have 3 guns on the color monitors. Never tried to fix a mono monitor though. We have enough good used ones, and some still in the box, both 9-pin and 15-pin SVGA. We even have some funky "mono" 9-pin monitors that have a switch on the front to make them Amber, Green, or black and white! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Kennedy Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 4:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 On 9 Nov 2012, at 1:32 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Color CRT monitors have 3 guns (red, blue, and green) but a mono > monitor has only 1 gun. So even if you used filters to "fool" > yourself into thinking color, it can't actually be color, because there is only 1 gun! *cough* Trinitron *cough* -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5882 - Release Date: 11/08/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5882 - Release Date: 11/08/12 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 9 17:00:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 15:00:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121109145720.C99726@shell.lmi.net> > > . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if > > you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it > > in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. The only explanation that I was given was: "The company selling the refill kit (Torx driver, page of instructions, bag of toner) sent the wrong toner." From jonas at otter.se Fri Nov 9 15:15:49 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:15:49 +0100 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509D7285.1040604@otter.se> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 15:53:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: > VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. > WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy > books on WordPerfect? > Boil them and serve them to your college administrators, saying it is Swedish lutefisk? From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 9 17:05:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:05:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I beleive that while the AUI connector has a 12V power supply for the >>> external transceiver, the AAUI has a 5V supply. So converting a >>> transceiver from one to the other is more than just a connactor swap. >> >> I recall the same thing. > > And o yet again Apple did not adhere to an accepted standard.... Many transceivers would work no matter what voltage was present, especially the later types with external (wall-wart) power supplies. I doubt most of the vampire-tap type 10Base-5 transceivers would work at 5V, but many of the 10Base-T types would work just fine. Somewhere around here I still have an AAUI to AUI cable. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 9 17:13:45 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:13:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> How many times can they be refilled ? >> >> The plastic can last forever, if well cared. The comsumables (doctor > > I am nto convinced. Many plastixs go brittle with age, asn the > plsticiser evapourates. I would guess that for somethign like a toner > cartridge the plastic used would not be chosen because it had a long > lifetime. High carbon, high heat plastics are brittle by their nature, but they also tend to age very well. By comparison, PC+ABS blends often age poorly and some blends can become extremely brittle with age. To make matters worse, there seems to be no way to effectively solvent weld PC+ABS blends. On the other hand, most ABS blends /without/ polycarbonate tend to solvent weld very very well with solvents such as dichloromethane (methylene chloride). From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 9 17:13:32 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:13:32 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> On 11/09/2012 04:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/09/2012 02:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if >>> you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it >>> in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. >> I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. > At Canon school, they told us the toner/drum combo in the PC-1 worked > in the opposite polarity to that in the CX engine. > > -Dave > Ok, I'm game. Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of ram?? HINT: If you arr wandering off at least change the topic. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 17:17:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 15:17:55 -0800 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> Message-ID: <509D8F23.8070707@sydex.com> On 11/09/2012 01:32 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Color CRT monitors have 3 guns (red, blue, and green) but a mono monitor has > only 1 gun. So even if you used filters to "fool" yourself into thinking > color, it can't actually be color, because there is only 1 gun! The number of electron guns is irrelevant--both Sony and Philco offered beam-index color CRTs with but a single gun. At any rate, between 1950 and 1953, the official color television standard in the USA was the CBS field-sequential system, which, compared with the RCA system of the same time was quite good (at least for the time)--a mechanical 3-color filter was spun in front of the CRT, synchronized to a similar filter at the camera. It wasn't until 1953 that RCA had improved its system well enough for NTSC color to become the official standard. A few CBS System receivers still exist. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 9 17:32:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 18:32:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201211092332.SAA23080@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I think Tony's point (pathological corner case though it is) is that >> a B&W CRT *can* display color with such a filtering device; Well, to drag out the full-on pedantry, I would say that a B&W CRT can't display colour, but a device of which a B&W CRT forms part (eg, a B&W CRT plus colour filters and such) may. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 17:45:09 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 15:45:09 -0800 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <00f701cdbecd$36afdac0$a40f9040$@com> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> <00f701cdbecd$36afdac0$a40f9040$@com> Message-ID: On 9 Nov 2012, at 2:54 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have Sony Triniton monitors here, and I have repaired them, many years > ago. > If I recall correctly, they still have 3 guns on the color monitors. They do not; they have a single gun with three cathodes used in conjunction with a aperture grille screen (hence the name, which is derived from "trinity", the union of three, and "tron" from "electron tube"). When Sony's patents ran out other vendors were free to use the technology but not the name, resulting in things like Diamondtron, SonicTron, Technitron, MumbleTron, etc. In the end it has nothing to do with the number of guns; it's conformance with a standard. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 9 18:19:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:19:02 -0800 Subject: ISO Advanced Digital S-100 Super Six EPROM In-Reply-To: <509C2AB7.5050207@bitsavers.org> References: <509C2AB7.5050207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <509D9D76.1040401@bitsavers.org> On 11/8/12 1:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have recovered most of the Turbodos and CPM 3 files for the ADC Super Six > On the CPM 3 disk were the sources for the boot EPROM, but there is an unreadable > sector in the middle of it. > I was able to recover the data today after cleaning the disk with whiteboard cleaner and letting it dry overnight. I was able to recover everything but two other boot prom files (one for the Super Slave and Super Quad) so it would be interesting to try to find the original images for either of those boards. The files I was able to recover will be up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/AdvancedDigitalCorp/prom/ ------- title monprom Super Six Monitor Prom .z80 pbase: .phase 0f000h promsiz equ 800h sysbase equ 0000h zecho equ 0ee00h fdrdfg equ 0ee01h curadr equ 0ee02h hdflag equ 0ee04h hdsdhb equ 0ee05h stack equ 0ee64h page 60 ;ports sioad equ 00h sioac equ 01h siobd equ 02h siobc equ 03h fdcmd equ 0ch fdtrk equ 0dh fdsec equ 0eh fddat equ 0fh fddsd equ 14h baudrd equ 15h baudwr equ 18h bank0 equ 16h hddat equ 0e0h hderg equ 0e1h hdscnt equ 0e2h hdsec equ 0e3h hdcylo equ 0e4h hdcyhi equ 0e5h hdsdh equ 0e6h hdcmd equ 0e7h ;ascii cr equ 0dh lf equ 0ah esc equ 1bh page JP bootin JP putc JP getupc JP cetupc JP gecho JP strout JP crlf JP space JP hex1 JP hexit JP hexhl JP getnum JP get2n JP get4n JP tstmem JP negde JP hdbadx JP fderr JP iport JP oport page bootin: IN A,(baudrd) ;set baud rate for crt OUT (baudwr),A LD A,04FH ;pon jump off, bank 00 on OUT (bank0),A LD A,020H ;set in byte for hd sdh reg LD (hdsdhb),A ; sector size 512, crc mode XOR A ;reset fpy read flag LD (fdrdfg),A LD SP,stack LD HL,inisa LD BC,800h + sioac OTIR LD HL,inisb LD BC,800h + siobc OTIR JP around inisa: db 018h,004h,044h,003h,0c1h,005h,0eah,0 inisb: db 018h,004h,044h,003h,0c1h,005h,0eah,0 around: LD HL,signon CALL strout LD HL,signom CALL strout JP boot page ;--------------------- ; Top of command loop ;--------------------- exec: LD SP,stack LD HL,prompt CALL strout CALL gecho LD B,A LD HL,cmdtbl cloop: LD A,(HL) CP 0ffh JR Z,badcmd CP B JR Z,gotcmd INC HL INC HL INC HL JR cloop badcmd: LD HL,undef woopsy: CALL strout JR exec gotcmd: INC HL LD E,(HL) INC HL LD D,(HL) EX DE,HL JP (HL) ;go to command page putc: PUSH AF owait: IN A,(sioac) AND 4 JR Z,owait POP AF OUT (sioad),A RET cetupc: IN A,(sioac) AND 1 ;char ready? RET Z ;no, exit -- z status JR gitupc getupc: IN A,(sioac) AND 1 ;char ready? JR Z,getupc ;no, loop gitupc: IN A,(sioad) AND 7fh ;mask CP 'a' ;lt 'a'? RET C ;yes, exit CP '{' ;lt '{'? RET NC ;yes, exit AND 5fh ;upcase RET gecho: LD A,0ffh LD (zecho),A CALL getupc PUSH AF LD A,(zecho) AND A JR NZ,xbarf POP AF RET xbarf: POP AF CP ' ' ;ctrl char? CALL NC,putc ;no, echo RET page strout: PUSH AF PUSH HL stroop: LD A,(HL) OR A ;end of string JR Z,strend ;yes, jump CALL putc INC HL JR stroop strend: POP HL POP AF RET crlf: PUSH HL LD HL,crlfst CALL strout POP HL RET abort?: CALL cetupc CP esc ;escape code? JP Z,exec ;yes, jump -- abort CP 8 ;??? RET NC JR abort? space: PUSH AF LD A,' ' JR hspit page hexit: PUSH AF RRCA RRCA RRCA RRCA CALL hex1 POP AF hex1: PUSH AF AND 0fh ADD A,90h DAA ADC A,40h DAA hspit: CALL putc POP AF RET hexhl: PUSH AF LD A,H CALL hexit LD A,L CALL hexit POP AF RET page getnum: CALL gecho CP ',' RET Z ;end of # CP ' ' RET Z ;end of # CP '0' RET C ;woops CP ':' JP C,isnum ;0 - 9 CP 'A' RET C ;woops CP 'G' CCF RET C ;woops SUB 007H ;convert A - F isnum: SUB 030H ;decode RET page get2n: PUSH BC PUSH DE LD C,0 LD E,0 nloop: CALL getnum ;number in? JR NC,nisnum ;yes, jump CP cr ;cr? SCF JR NZ,bad2n ;no, jump LD A,E OR A ;any input? JR NZ,got2n ;yes, jump SCF LD A,cr ;let's pretend it was a cr JR bad2n nisnum: CP 16 ;is it a number? JR NC,got2n ;no, jump INC E ;inc it LD B,A ;save # LD A,C ;get old ADD A,A ;x 2 ADD A,A ;x 4 ADD A,A ;x 8 ADD A,A ;x 16 ADD A,B ;add in new # LD C,A ; -- and all to c JP nloop got2n: LD A,C ;return in a bad2n: POP DE POP BC RET page get4n: PUSH DE LD HL,0 SCF CCF PUSH AF n4loop: CALL getnum JR NC,got4n CP cr JR NZ,bad4n CALL space JR good4n bad4n: POP AF SCF POP DE RET got4n: CP 16 JR NC,good4n ADD HL,HL ADD HL,HL ADD HL,HL ADD HL,HL LD E,A LD D,0 ADD HL,DE JR n4loop good4n: POP AF POP DE RET page tstmem: LD (HL),A CP (HL) RET Z PUSH HL LD HL,memerr CALL strout POP HL CALL hexhl JP exec page ;--------------------------------------- ; Load function -- Display & Substitute ;--------------------------------------- load: CALL get4n ;get the start adr JP NC,lodlop oops: LD HL,woops JP woopsy lodlop: LD (curadr),HL dot: CALL crlf ;display the current adr LD HL,(curadr) CALL hexhl CALL space LD A,(HL) CALL hexit CALL space CALL get2n ;get the response JP C,lodcmd CALL tstmem lodinc: LD HL,(curadr) ;inc the current adr INC HL JP lodlop lodcmd: CP cr ;cr terminates JP Z,exec CP ' ' ;space means inc JP Z,lodinc CP '-' ;dash means dec JP NZ,oops dash: LD HL,(curadr) ;dec the current adr DEC HL JP lodlop page ;----------- ; Negate DE ;----------- negde: PUSH AF LD A,D CPL LD D,A LD A,E CPL LD E,A INC DE POP AF RET page ;----------------------- ; Dump memory to screen ;----------------------- dump: CALL get4de CALL get4de CALL negde dloop: CALL crlf CALL hexhl CALL space dloop1: CALL space LD A,(HL) CALL hexit CALL inchlc CALL abortc CP 013H ;??? worthless CALL Z,abort? LD A,L AND 0fh JP Z,dloop JP dloop1 page ;------------------ ; Go to an address ;------------------ go: CALL get4de EX DE,HL JP (HL) ;----------------------- ; Display the help menu ;----------------------- help: LD HL,helpst CALL strout JP exec inchlc: PUSH HL ;cp hl to de -- abort if c, else inc hl ADD HL,DE JP C,exec POP HL INC HL RET page ;------------------- ; Move memory block ;------------------- move: CALL get4de PUSH DE CALL get4de CALL get4de EX DE,HL EX (SP),HL CALL negde mloop: LD A,(HL) EX (SP),HL CALL tstmem INC HL EX (SP),HL CALL inchlc CALL abortc JP mloop page ;------------- ; Fill memory ;------------- fill: CALL get4de CALL get4de CALL negde CALL get2n JP C,oops floop: CALL tstmem CALL inchlc JP floop get4de: CALL get4n JP C,oops EX DE,HL RET abortc: CALL cetupc ;abort on any char OR A JP NZ,exec RET ;--------------- ; In & Out port ;--------------- iport: CALL get2n JP C,oops LD C,A IN A,(C) CALL crlf CALL hexit JP exec oport: CALL get2n JP C,oops LD C,A CALL get2n JP C,oops OUT (C),A JP exec page ;---------------------------------- ; Boot -- floppy or hard disk exec ;---------------------------------- boot: CALL abortc CALL fddset CALL hdset fdlop: CALL abortc CALL fdrdy? ;ready to try a read? CALL NC,fdread ;yes, go try CALL hdread JR fdlop page ;------------- ; Floppy junk ;------------- fddset: XOR A OUT (fddsd),A ;8" sd CALL fdrdy? ;is the drive ready? JP C,try8dd ;no, jump LD HL,try8dd JR fdhome try8dd: LD A,8 ;8" dd OUT (fddsd),A CALL fdrdy? ;ready now? JP C,try5dd ;no, jump LD HL,try5dd JR fdhome try5dd: LD A,018H ;5.25' dd OUT (fddsd),A CALL fdrdy? ;ready now? RET C ;no, exit LD HL,fderrs fdhome: LD A,0fh ;restore command OUT (fdcmd),A CALL delay IN A,(fddsd) ;force wait for int IN A,(fdcmd) AND 018H ;seek or crc error? RET Z ;no, exit JP (HL) delay: LD A,3 delop: EX (SP),HL EX (SP),HL DEC A JR NZ,delop RET page ;------------- ; Ready check ;------------- fdrdy?: IN A,(fdcmd) RLA ;ready? RET C ;no, return LD HL,3E8H idxlop: IN A,(fdcmd) AND 2 ;index found? JR Z,idxfnd ;no, jump DEC HL LD A,L OR H ;timeout? JR NZ,idxlop ;no, jump SCF RET idxfnd: LD B,10 idxlp1: LD HL,3E80H idxlp2: IN A,(fdcmd) AND 2 ;index found? RET NZ ;yes, exit DEC HL LD A,L OR H ;timeout? JR NZ,idxlp2 ;no, loop DJNZ idxlp1 SCF RET page ;------------------ ; Floppy disk read ;------------------ fdread: LD A,0FFH ;indicate attempt to read LD (fdrdfg),A LD A,1 ;set sector 1 OUT (fdsec),A LD A,08CH ;read sector OUT (fdcmd),A LD HL,sysbase LD C,fddat fdrdlp: IN A,(fddsd) ;wait for data or int OR A ;data? JP P,fdrddn ;no, jump INI ;get a byte JP fdrdlp fdrddn: CALL delay IN A,(fdcmd) OR A ;errors? JP Z,sysbase ;no, jump to booted input fderrs: PUSH AF LD A,(fdrdfg) OR A ;have we tried to read? JR Z,getdsk ;no, jump fderr: LD HL,fderms ;floppy disk err msg out CALL strout POP AF CALL hexit JP exec getdsk: POP AF LD HL,dskask CALL strout LD A,0FFH ;reset floppy read flag LD (fdrdfg),A JP exec page ;------------------------ ; Hard disk test & setup ;------------------------ hdset: XOR A ;zap hd regs OUT (hdsec),A OUT (hdcylo),A OUT (hdcyhi),A INC A ;set for 1 sector OUT (hdscnt),A IN A,(hdsec) ;now, test for hdc1001 ctrlr LD B,A IN A,(hdcylo) OR B LD B,A IN A,(hdcyhi) OR B LD (hdflag),A ; -- and save result LD A,01EH ;do a restore OUT (hdcmd),A RET page ;---------------- ; Hard disk read ;---------------- hdread: LD A,(hdflag) OR A ;is a controller out there? RET NZ ;no, exit IN A,(hdcmd) AND 050H CP 050H ;ready & seek complete? RET NZ ;no, exit IN A,(hdcmd) OR A ;busy? RET M ;yes, exit hdrtry: LD A,(hdsdhb) ;set sdh OUT (hdsdh),A LD A,020H ;read sector cmd OUT (hdcmd),A hdbzlp: IN A,(hdcmd) OR A ;busy? JP M,hdbzlp ;yes, loop AND 1 ;error? JR NZ,hdbadx ;yes, jump LD HL,0 LD BC,8000h + hddat INIR JP sysbase page hdbadx: LD A,(hdsdhb) CP 20h ;sector size = 512? JP NZ,hderr ;no, go croak XOR A ;try 256 byte sector LD (hdsdhb),A LD A,1fh ;restore again OUT (hdcmd),A hdbzl1: IN A,(hdcmd) RL A ;busy? JR C,hdbzl1 ;yes, loop JR hdrtry hderr: LD HL,hdrms CALL strout IN A,(hderg) CALL hexit JP exec page signon: db cr,lf,' > ADVANCED DIGITAL CORP.' db cr,lf,' SUPER SIX Running',cr,lf,0 signom: db ' Monitor Version 3.4' db cr,lf,' June - 1983' db cr,lf,' Press "H" for help' db cr,lf,'Attempting to boot.......' db cr,lf,'Press any key to abort boot.',cr,lf,0 prompt: db cr,lf,' >',0 undef: db ' UNDEFINED',0 woops: db ' ????',0 memerr: db cr,cr,lf,'MEMORY WRITE ERROR AT ',0 ;??? db 'ERROR',0 db ' PAUSE',0 db '? ',0 db ' ABORTED',0 db 'STARTING ADDRESS:',0 db 'ENDING ADDRESS:',0 fderms: db cr,lf,'FDC COLD BOOT ERROR CODE ',0 dskask: db cr,lf,'INSERT DISK & PRESS B TO BOOT',0 hdrms: db cr,lf,'HDC1001 COLD BOOT ERROR CODE ',0 crlfst: db cr,lf,0 helpst: db cr,lf,'MONITOR COMMANDS :' db cr,lf,'B = Load disk boot loader' db cr,lf,'DSSSS,QQQQ = Dump memory in hex from S to Q' db cr,lf,'FSSSS,QQQQ,BB = Fill memory from S to Q with B' db cr,lf,'GAAAA = Go to address A' db cr,lf,'IPP = Input from port P' db cr,lf,'LAAAA = Load memory starting at A' db cr,lf,'MSSSS,QQQQ,DDDD = Move starting at S to Q to Addr. D' db cr,lf,'OPP,DD = Output data D to port P' db cr,lf,'ESC will terminate any command',0 page ;-------------------------- ; Function code jump table ;-------------------------- cmdtbl: db 'L' dw load db cr dw exec db '.' dw dot db '-' dw dash db 'D' dw dump db 'I' dw iport db 'O' dw oport db 'F' dw fill db 'G' dw go db 'M' dw move db 'H' dw help db 'B' dw boot db 0ffh .dephase ds promsiz-($-pbase),0ffh end From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 18:38:08 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:38:08 -0600 Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121107150602.V37741@shell.lmi.net> <509B0202.8050807@sydex.com> <20121107170316.V39215@shell.lmi.net> <509B1027.2040905@bitsavers.org> <251F2977-351B-4265-9253-A1A0833D471F@aracnet.com> <20121108154433.L69887@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <509DA1F0.3080300@gmail.com> On 11/08/2012 05:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. > WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy > books on WordPerfect? Build a fort and throw AOL CDs at people passing by? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 18:30:11 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:30:11 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> > Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of > ram?? Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! :oD Well, at least I tried :D From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 18:40:56 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:40:56 -0700 Subject: old tv's and CRT's In-Reply-To: <509D8F23.8070707@sydex.com> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <509D8F23.8070707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <509DA298.8030607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/9/2012 4:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At any rate, between 1950 and 1953, the official color television > standard in the USA was the CBS field-sequential system, which, compared > with the RCA system of the same time was quite good (at least for the > time)--a mechanical 3-color filter was spun in front of the CRT, > synchronized to a similar filter at the camera. > > It wasn't until 1953 that RCA had improved its system well enough for > NTSC color to become the official standard. > > A few CBS System receivers still exist. Lots of vintage TV's still can be found. It is getting working color CRT's that are the problem from what I read on the net. Now might be the last time to find CRT's for vintage computer equipment. > --Chuck Has the color on modern display devices matched the color purity of the early TV's yet? Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 18:50:49 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:50:49 -0700 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> Message-ID: <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of >> ram?? > > Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on > a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! > > :oD > > Well, at least I tried :D > Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in 16K including the printer fonts. Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 18:59:27 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:59:27 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <792C68D6371B41E29AFE93C46BE4CEB5@tababook> >> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on >> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! > Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I am > sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in 16K > including the printer fonts. I doubt. And you woudn't print raster graphics :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 19:07:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:07:22 -0800 Subject: old tv's and CRT's In-Reply-To: <509DA298.8030607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <509D8F23.8070707@sydex.com> <509DA298.8030607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <509DA8CA.9080005@sydex.com> On 11/09/2012 04:40 PM, ben wrote: > Has the color on modern display devices matched the color purity of the > early TV's yet? If you're talking about 1950s RCA/NTSC sets, then the answer is no--modern displays were much better. I vividly remember one of the first families on the block to get color TV around 1957. It was an RCA set--the color was greenish and the reds had a longer persistence than the other phosphors, so red objects would "smear" badly on a dark background. Really, NTSC was terrible when it was new and didn't improve all that much. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 9 19:15:10 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:15:10 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of >>> ram?? >> >> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on >> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! >> >> :oD >> >> Well, at least I tried :D >> > > Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I > am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in > 16K including the printer fonts. > Ben. > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly enough to lay down dots as the drum rotates. The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image need to exist before the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image processor can fill a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM engine) was about 7mhz. The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, The system IO to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based engine was not much slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often those that were band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a higher priced version that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed before the paper was even moved. Actually I use my CP/M-80 system to lay down images on a real Laserjet4L. The price is that I need to run the system for a long time to create bit images to transmit. That takes hours even with ram and bit of buffering to hard disk. Even then the printer is doing much of the heavy lifting. The main issue was never ram but CPU cycles to process that data at acceptable rates for graphic images. It is the same issue as doing video graphics on a CRT or LCD. In that case you need enough ram to buffer the image for refresh and enough cpu to create and transfer images to that ram. So to simply move bytes to a 1MB page buffer it would take a Z80 at 4mhz around 8 seconds with no processing other than simple paging. That's too slow. Allison From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 19:39:16 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:39:16 -0200 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly > enough to lay down dots > as the drum rotates. > ... I love this list, I learn more and more every day :o) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 19:41:58 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:41:58 -0700 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/9/2012 6:15 PM, allison wrote: > On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >> On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of >>>> ram?? >>> >>> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on >>> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! >>> >>> :oD >>> >>> Well, at least I tried :D >>> >> >> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >> 16K including the printer fonts. >> Ben. >> > > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly > enough to lay down dots > as the drum rotates. That is a mechanical issue, not the idea of charging a drum with a laser. The old, cheaper hardware, faster software problem here. I don't think software has yet to solve the real problem of modern printers, is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, but that is off topic. > The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image > need to exist before > the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image > processor can fill > a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM > engine) was about 7mhz. > The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, > The system IO > to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based > engine was not much > slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often > those that were > band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a > higher priced version > that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed > before the paper > was even moved. I think history of Time-Sharing computers had a big impact here. You needed BIG fast page laser printer to share between users, so high speed printer was needed. Speed I don't think changed much over the years, but build quality HAS dropped. > Actually I use my CP/M-80 system to lay down images on a real > Laserjet4L. The price is that > I need to run the system for a long time to create bit images to > transmit. That takes hours > even with ram and bit of buffering to hard disk. Even then the printer > is doing much of the > heavy lifting. Custom software, or using a driver for a text processing package? > Allison > Ben. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 9 19:42:39 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:42:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <509DA1F0.3080300@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Nov 9, 12 06:38:08 pm" Message-ID: <201211100142.qAA1gdBn30408900@floodgap.com> > > VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. > > WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy > > books on WordPerfect? > > Build a fort and throw AOL CDs at people passing by? I like the floppies. They have those nice metal edges which make a ragged laceration if you get the right spin on 'em. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Use foresight, and pessimism. ---------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 20:20:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 21:20:32 -0500 Subject: Laser printers, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <509DB9F0.2000206@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2012 08:41 PM, ben wrote: >> The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image >> need to exist before >> the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image >> processor can fill >> a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM >> engine) was about 7mhz. >> The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, >> The system IO >> to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based >> engine was not much >> slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often >> those that were >> band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a >> higher priced version >> that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed >> before the paper >> was even moved. > > I think history of Time-Sharing computers had a big impact here. You needed > BIG fast page laser printer to share between users, so high speed > printer was > needed. Speed I don't think changed much over the years, but build > quality HAS dropped. The build quality for consumer crapware has dropped, but if you buy that stuff, you get what you deserve. I had a DEC LN01 for a long time. It was a cantankerous beast but it was built like a tank. (I would love to have one again, if anyone has one lying around) Today's GOOD printers are built every bit as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 20:22:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 21:22:01 -0500 Subject: PC-1/CX cartridge compatibility, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121109145720.C99726@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121109145720.C99726@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <509DBA49.6000708@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2012 06:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if >>> you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it >>> in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. > On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. > > The only explanation that I was given was: > "The company selling the refill kit (Torx driver, page of instructions, > bag of toner) sent the wrong toner." If memory serves, the drum coating was a completely different composition, it was even a different color. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 21:23:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:23:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: References: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> <4F5F90C3.3020700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Richard wrote: >> I wrote about Teleray terminals: >> >>> I'm not sure which model, but it was reportedly 6502-based, and had some >>> kind of hacked firmware installed. > > Are there any photos of the PCBs out there? I have a small box of > what appear to be 6502-based terminal boards with lots of socketed > TTL. I do not know the vendor, but I can look for distinctive > markings. I never had the terminals. I just picked up a box of > "random" boards from a Hamfest some time ago. I found one of the boards tonight... It's really hard to read the hand-written scrawl on the label, but it certainly _could_ be 1061. The board has several DB25s on one edge, a prominent pair of 9114 SRAMs, what looks like a ROM in one corner (if 8316 is a part number for a 2K masked-programmed ROM), and I think it attaches to the video circuit with a two-row 0.1" ribbon cable of about 20 pins. There are a pair of side-toggle dip-switches on one edge for what looks like configuration settings. I did a bit of googling for the Teleray 1061 and about all I found out is that it was released in 1978 for around $1100 and there are some quirks with it enough to get mentioned in termcap comments. I did not find schematics or a proper manual. When I got it, I didn't know what it was and I got it for the socketed parts. If anyone is trying to fix a Teleray 1061, this could be your lucky day. The chips on it are worth a few dollars to me as spares but not a vast amount. I already have more dumb terminals that I could ever use, so I see no reason why I'd ever try to turn this board into a working terminal. If someone wants it, contact me off-list, otherwise, it'll stay in the parts bin for now. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 9 21:29:31 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:29:31 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <509DCA1B.80209@verizon.net> On 11/09/2012 08:41 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/9/2012 6:15 PM, allison wrote: >> On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >>> On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the >>>>> 1MB of >>>>> ram?? >>>> >>>> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with >>>> ease on >>>> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! >>>> >>>> :oD >>>> >>>> Well, at least I tried :D >>>> >>> >>> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >>> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >>> 16K including the printer fonts. >>> Ben. >>> >> >> Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly >> enough to lay down dots >> as the drum rotates. > > That is a mechanical issue, not the idea of charging a drum with a laser. You are not serious. The drum rotates slowly but each line of pixels is the length of the printed area (8") times the 300line per inch of the circumference and at 8PPM the average drum in small printers turned several times to print the whole 11 inchs. It's a raster scan system. Character printers could compose at a rate that was one cell height at a time so they use band buffers that often allowed typically 8 or 16 lines on the drum to be buffered at a time while the next lines were being processed. That scheme was good to a point but there were pathological cases that resulted in page to complex and imaging failures. often overstrikes were the likely culprit. For 8PPM that means moving 7920000 pixels in about 7.5 seconds without much dead time. You cannot stop the drum during the process. The laser does not charge the drum, it's used to discharge it, you can do it with LEDs as well but they were slow back then. The typical cycle is charge corona, writing (laser, or led raster scan), developing (toner) transfer(transfer corona) and cleaning (discharge corona sometimes), and doctoring (scrape the remaining toner off with a silicone rubber blade). Repeat as eneded. Polarities and what optical range this are done are dependent on if the drum was selenium coated or the organic photoreceptor that Cannon wrapped the cartridge around. > > The old, cheaper hardware, faster software problem here. I don't think > software has yet to solve the real problem of modern printers, > is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, but that > is off topic. That belongs back with one of the threads that had NAPLPS in it or maybe WYSIWYG when WYGINS is the reality. No one prints at under 100 DPI. Maybe now with very high resolution color displays we see what we get but then the best CRT I ran in color was 1280x1024 and .27 dot pitch (about 70-80dpi) which is still coarse by then 300DPI standard. That meant the tube could not display (even in B&W) what the printer could. New we have displays that are easily better than 300dpi but printers can do 600dpi and maybe more. That doesn't even cover color. > >> The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image >> need to exist before >> the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image >> processor can fill >> a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM >> engine) was about 7mhz. >> The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, >> The system IO >> to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based >> engine was not much >> slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often >> those that were >> band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a >> higher priced version >> that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed >> before the paper >> was even moved. > > I think history of Time-Sharing computers had a big impact here. You > needed > BIG fast page laser printer to share between users, so high speed > printer was > needed. Speed I don't think changed much over the years, but build > quality HAS dropped. > No build quality is better. We ( I was part of the team that developed the LN01, LN03 and LPS40 and LPS20 series at DEC) found that getting engines that could run at speed for 90 days without breakdown was a mechanical impossibility, we had customers prove it repeatedly. Back then the choices were Cannon, Ricoh, Xerox and in about that order of durability. Getting 200,000 to 300,000 pages between failure was the challenge and price was the other. To get to 40PPM (LPS40) a microVAX in the printer pushing a custom bitslice processor and a even more custom bitbliter so that a reasonably complex page set could be printed at 40PPM. That's what it took then. But the printer took postscript directly and printed up to B size pages with no page too complex issues. Now we have cheap fast cpus that can do that. This development was in the time frame of the "workstation" so the big VAX in the back was not always the factor. However the cost of even slow printers was high enough Then that shared resource was what the customer said. The price of a 8PPM printer then is far higher than a 20ppm color printer now. So the existence of timesharing was and is a red herring as big systems printers printed less graphics and small single users wanted all the printing capability.. Often the single user was a workstation of even then a PC with Hercules or early CGA video. >> Actually I use my CP/M-80 system to lay down images on a real >> Laserjet4L. The price is that >> I need to run the system for a long time to create bit images to >> transmit. That takes hours >> even with ram and bit of buffering to hard disk. Even then the printer >> is doing much of the >> heavy lifting. > Custom software, or using a driver for a text processing package? > Very custom, in assembler as excess overhead was painful and I had one of the uncommon 10mhz z80s. I did it mostly to prove a point but waiting hours per page was not practical. Doing hi res text only documents was easy and people were doing it tot he limits of what printers were available. Graphics just wanted more of everything by many orders of magnitude. Large ram was cost and speed issues but doable then. Code can overcome a lot of things but raw CPU speed was and is the prime solution (enter GPUs). FYI I still run that LJ4L as its durable and parallel interfaces to all my systems directly save for the latest PC with no IO save for USB ( PIC24 programmed for USB to parallel solution). Allison From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 9 22:14:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:14:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201211100414.XAA23825@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I don't think software has yet to solve the real problem of modern > printers, is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, I don't think that - to the extent it _is_ a problem - _can_ be solved, as long as printers are higher-resolution than displays. (Not unless you artificially cripple the printout to match the display's resolution, at least.) > but that is off topic. Well, to a point. Some classic machines had display resolutions close to their printer resolutions, and the two _could_ match fairly well.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Nov 9 22:36:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:36:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sam's Computerfacts 4851 Disk Drive Message-ID: <1352522181.91090.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Need it. Anyone have it? Hook me up, ay/. From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Nov 10 04:39:21 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 10:39:21 +0000 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> On 10/11/2012 01:15, allison wrote: > On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >> >> >> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >> 16K including the printer fonts. >> Ben. >> > There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This cut the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was very cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think it was a canon engine. This idea was used in the "windows only" laser printers where the ripping was done on the PC and the raw data sent to the printer via parallel port. Roger From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Nov 10 04:45:57 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 10:45:57 +0000 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509E3065.3@mac.com> On 09/11/2012 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: >> . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if >> you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it >> in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. > I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. > > -tony Pretty much every type of printer or copier uses different photoreceptor/toner/developer/carrier. As these all work on electrostatic priniples things such as charge, spacing between components, materials used in consumables, fusing temps are all different. 11 years working at Xerox, 12 more years on toner based digital printing... Roger From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Nov 10 05:18:19 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:18:19 +0000 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <509E37FB.7050505@mac.com> On 10/11/2012 01:15, allison wrote: > > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data > rapidly enough to lay down dots > as the drum rotates. > > The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit > image need to exist before > the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image > processor can fill > a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM > engine) was about 7mhz. > The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep > up, The system IO > to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based > engine was not much > slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers > often those that were > band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a > higher priced version > that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed > before the paper > was even moved. I am a tech at a company called XEIKON. We manufacture color digital presses.. We print on rolls of paper of upto 50cm (20inch) at 1200DPI at speeds of 19 meters a min (about 60ft/min??). The presses are 5 colour on both sides.. Being roll fed presses we cant stop the press and wait for the data, LOTS of FPGA's are required to keep up the data stream. We are low end industrial, some of the expensive stuff like Kodaks Prosper of course need lots more.... Roger From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 10 09:41:04 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:41:04 -0700 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <201211100414.XAA23825@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509DB0E6.6040001@jetnet.ab.ca> <201211100414.XAA23825@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <509E7590.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/9/2012 9:14 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I don't think software has yet to solve the real problem of modern >> printers, is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, > > I don't think that - to the extent it _is_ a problem - _can_ be solved, > as long as printers are higher-resolution than displays. (Not unless > you artificially cripple the printout to match the display's > resolution, at least.) > >> but that is off topic. > > Well, to a point. Some classic machines had display resolutions close > to their printer resolutions, and the two _could_ match fairly well.... Well not resolution issue, but font scaling. Windows seems to have lost TrueType somewhere on my machine. For what little C programing I do, fixed with fonts is what I want! Ben. PS. If people were happy with printer output, programs like TeX would not be here. From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 10:50:02 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:50:02 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <239E9962-8E52-4D57-BAA0-14042B4C1D73@pocnet.net> References: <239E9962-8E52-4D57-BAA0-14042B4C1D73@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <802939B0-23D9-4074-99A4-29D786921F3C@gmail.com> On 9 Nov 2012, at 23:41 , Schindler Patrik wrote: > Am 09.11.2012 um 20:46 schrieb Tony Duell: > >>> I recall the same thing. >> And o yet again Apple did not adhere to an accepted standard.... > > Yes, because the monitor port on Macs already had been DB15-F, years before Macs with Onboard-Ethernet came to life. Apple was eager to keep setting up Macs as easy as possible. That includes distinct connectors for distinct functions. Size was also a consideration. Standard AUI connectors would ill fit on PowerBooks. .tsooJ -- There are perhaps 5% of the population that simply can't think. There are another 5% who can, and do. The remaining 90% can think, but don't. - Robert A. Heinlein -- Joost van de Griek From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Nov 10 11:02:15 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 09:02:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Needed - rear brackets for BA23 mounting kit Message-ID: <1352566935.26136.YahooMailRC@web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm racking a BA23 system into a corporate cabinet, using a BA23-AR mounting kit. I have the rails, front brackets and front cover but I'm lacking the rear brackets that secure the rails to the rear cabinet posts. Apparently some racks require these brackets and some don't. I have _three_ racking kits and none of them have the rear brackets. The brackets are short pieces of sheet metal, about 2" deep and 3" high. They are bent in a shallow U shape with an extended tab on one leg. Part numbers are 7428372-01 and 7428372-02 (left and right sides). They are shown in the BA23 Enclosure Maintenance manual, p 2-22. Please let me know if you can spare a pair (or more) of these items. Thank you, Jack From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 10 11:43:57 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:43:57 +0100 Subject: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <20121101100739.245e83c7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5092DB2D.6080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121110184357.52697ee564c856131a1e998a@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:27:25 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > If you end up getting one, > I'd appreciate knowing what you think of it. The Oki MFR-2241 arrived today. I did some (de-) soldering on scrap PCBs in the last hours. It is amazing how the small 1 mm chisel cartridge heats up large through hole pins soldered to big ground planes. My old iron wolud not be able to do this, in no way. The OKi tips are thin and short. Wheres the heater + tip of my old iron is much thicker and longer. A touch up on a single SMD pin is much easier with the OKi, as the total length of the tip is much shorter. The "precision" tweezers aren't that precise as expected, but its OK. Wane desolder that SO8? Grab with the tweezers, wait a second or two and it comes off. Wane desolder that LM2676 (dPak)? Tin the leads for better heat conduction, grab with the tweezers, wait some more seconds (large ground plane under the chip) and it comes off... My setup cost me 830 EUR (approx. 1055US$) including some tips. The single PSU variant, MFR-1100, is 300 EUR (approx. 380US$). If you are in buissines for a new soldering iron and can spend that much money, get at least a MFR-1100. It is worth every single cent! I'll get a pair of larger tips for the tweezers later. These are expensive, around 100 EUR. But desoldering a DIP16 or the like will be a piece of cake with them. p.s. At unpacking I noticed that the pacel had been droped top down onto the flor. But the PSU survived without a single scratch. It is build out of cast aluminium. It is heavy and build like a tank. Its really industrial grade equipment. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 10 12:05:14 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 13:05:14 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> Message-ID: <509E975A.6090608@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/11/12 5:39 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > On 10/11/2012 01:15, allison wrote: >> On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >>> >>> >>> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >>> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >>> 16K including the printer fonts. >>> Ben. >>> >> > > > There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later > model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This cut > the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was very > cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think it was > a canon engine. Yes, in the Mac world, some low end printers did the same thing. --Toby > > This idea was used in the "windows only" laser printers where the > ripping was done on the PC and the raw data sent to the printer via > parallel port. > > Roger > From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sat Nov 10 12:14:49 2012 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 19:14:49 +0100 Subject: old tv's and CRT's Message-ID: <02cd01cdbf6f$45eff040$d1cfd0c0$@liftoff.at> Hi Chuck, NTSC ... Never The Same Color Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2012 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 111, Issue 25 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Alexandre Souza - Listas) 2. Re: old tv's and CRT's (ben) 3. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (ben) 4. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Alexandre Souza - Listas) 5. Re: old tv's and CRT's (Chuck Guzis) 6. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (allison) 7. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Alexandre Souza - Listas) 8. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (ben) 9. Re: Disk drive manuals (Cameron Kaiser) 10. Laser printers, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Dave McGuire) 11. PC-1/CX cartridge compatibility, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Dave McGuire) 12. Re: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals (Ethan Dicks) 13. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (allison) 14. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Mouse) 15. Sam's Computerfacts 4851 Disk Drive (Chris Tofu) 16. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Roger Pugh) 17. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Roger Pugh) 18. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (Roger Pugh) 19. Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? (ben) 20. Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 (Joost van de Griek) 21. Needed - rear brackets for BA23 mounting kit (Jack Rubin) 22. Re: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition (Jochen Kunz) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:30:11 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0 at tababook> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response > Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of > ram?? Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! :oD Well, at least I tried :D ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:40:56 -0700 From: ben To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: old tv's and CRT's Message-ID: <509DA298.8030607 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/9/2012 4:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At any rate, between 1950 and 1953, the official color television > standard in the USA was the CBS field-sequential system, which, > compared with the RCA system of the same time was quite good (at least > for the time)--a mechanical 3-color filter was spun in front of the > CRT, synchronized to a similar filter at the camera. > > It wasn't until 1953 that RCA had improved its system well enough for > NTSC color to become the official standard. > > A few CBS System receivers still exist. Lots of vintage TV's still can be found. It is getting working color CRT's that are the problem from what I read on the net. Now might be the last time to find CRT's for vintage computer equipment. > --Chuck Has the color on modern display devices matched the color purity of the early TV's yet? Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:50:49 -0700 From: ben To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509DA4E9.3020107 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of >> ram?? > > Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on > a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! > > :oD > > Well, at least I tried :D > Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in 16K including the printer fonts. Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:59:27 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <792C68D6371B41E29AFE93C46BE4CEB5 at tababook> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response >> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on >> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! > Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I am > sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in 16K > including the printer fonts. I doubt. And you woudn't print raster graphics :) ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:07:22 -0800 From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old tv's and CRT's Message-ID: <509DA8CA.9080005 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/09/2012 04:40 PM, ben wrote: > Has the color on modern display devices matched the color purity of the > early TV's yet? If you're talking about 1950s RCA/NTSC sets, then the answer is no--modern displays were much better. I vividly remember one of the first families on the block to get color TV around 1957. It was an RCA set--the color was greenish and the reds had a longer persistence than the other phosphors, so red objects would "smear" badly on a dark background. Really, NTSC was terrible when it was new and didn't improve all that much. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:15:10 -0500 From: allison To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509DAA9E.2010702 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of >>> ram?? >> >> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on >> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! >> >> :oD >> >> Well, at least I tried :D >> > > Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I > am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in > 16K including the printer fonts. > Ben. > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly enough to lay down dots as the drum rotates. The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image need to exist before the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image processor can fill a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM engine) was about 7mhz. The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, The system IO to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based engine was not much slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often those that were band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a higher priced version that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed before the paper was even moved. Actually I use my CP/M-80 system to lay down images on a real Laserjet4L. The price is that I need to run the system for a long time to create bit images to transmit. That takes hours even with ram and bit of buffering to hard disk. Even then the printer is doing much of the heavy lifting. The main issue was never ram but CPU cycles to process that data at acceptable rates for graphic images. It is the same issue as doing video graphics on a CRT or LCD. In that case you need enough ram to buffer the image for refresh and enough cpu to create and transfer images to that ram. So to simply move bytes to a 1MB page buffer it would take a Z80 at 4mhz around 8 seconds with no processing other than simple paging. That's too slow. Allison ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:39:16 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly > enough to lay down dots > as the drum rotates. > ... I love this list, I learn more and more every day :o) ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:41:58 -0700 From: ben To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509DB0E6.6040001 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/9/2012 6:15 PM, allison wrote: > On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >> On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the 1MB of >>>> ram?? >>> >>> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with ease on >>> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! >>> >>> :oD >>> >>> Well, at least I tried :D >>> >> >> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >> 16K including the printer fonts. >> Ben. >> > > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly > enough to lay down dots > as the drum rotates. That is a mechanical issue, not the idea of charging a drum with a laser. The old, cheaper hardware, faster software problem here. I don't think software has yet to solve the real problem of modern printers, is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, but that is off topic. > The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image > need to exist before > the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image > processor can fill > a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM > engine) was about 7mhz. > The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, > The system IO > to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based > engine was not much > slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often > those that were > band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a > higher priced version > that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed > before the paper > was even moved. I think history of Time-Sharing computers had a big impact here. You needed BIG fast page laser printer to share between users, so high speed printer was needed. Speed I don't think changed much over the years, but build quality HAS dropped. > Actually I use my CP/M-80 system to lay down images on a real > Laserjet4L. The price is that > I need to run the system for a long time to create bit images to > transmit. That takes hours > even with ram and bit of buffering to hard disk. Even then the printer > is doing much of the > heavy lifting. Custom software, or using a driver for a text processing package? > Allison > Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:42:39 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Disk drive manuals Message-ID: <201211100142.qAA1gdBn30408900 at floodgap.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > VERY little interest in books. And these are some of the better ones. > > WhatamI gonna do when I get down to the boxes of Sybex books and crappy > > books on WordPerfect? > > Build a fort and throw AOL CDs at people passing by? I like the floppies. They have those nice metal edges which make a ragged laceration if you get the right spin on 'em. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Use foresight, and pessimism. ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 21:20:32 -0500 From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Laser printers, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509DB9F0.2000206 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 11/09/2012 08:41 PM, ben wrote: >> The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image >> need to exist before >> the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image >> processor can fill >> a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM >> engine) was about 7mhz. >> The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, >> The system IO >> to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based >> engine was not much >> slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often >> those that were >> band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a >> higher priced version >> that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed >> before the paper >> was even moved. > > I think history of Time-Sharing computers had a big impact here. You needed > BIG fast page laser printer to share between users, so high speed > printer was > needed. Speed I don't think changed much over the years, but build > quality HAS dropped. The build quality for consumer crapware has dropped, but if you buy that stuff, you get what you deserve. I had a DEC LN01 for a long time. It was a cantankerous beast but it was built like a tank. (I would love to have one again, if anyone has one lying around) Today's GOOD printers are built every bit as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 21:22:01 -0500 From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PC-1/CX cartridge compatibility, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509DBA49.6000708 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 11/09/2012 06:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if >>> you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it >>> in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. > On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. > > The only explanation that I was given was: > "The company selling the refill kit (Torx driver, page of instructions, > bag of toner) sent the wrong toner." If memory serves, the drum coating was a completely different composition, it was even a different color. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 22:23:32 -0500 From: Ethan Dicks To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Richard wrote: >> I wrote about Teleray terminals: >> >>> I'm not sure which model, but it was reportedly 6502-based, and had some >>> kind of hacked firmware installed. > > Are there any photos of the PCBs out there? I have a small box of > what appear to be 6502-based terminal boards with lots of socketed > TTL. I do not know the vendor, but I can look for distinctive > markings. I never had the terminals. I just picked up a box of > "random" boards from a Hamfest some time ago. I found one of the boards tonight... It's really hard to read the hand-written scrawl on the label, but it certainly _could_ be 1061. The board has several DB25s on one edge, a prominent pair of 9114 SRAMs, what looks like a ROM in one corner (if 8316 is a part number for a 2K masked-programmed ROM), and I think it attaches to the video circuit with a two-row 0.1" ribbon cable of about 20 pins. There are a pair of side-toggle dip-switches on one edge for what looks like configuration settings. I did a bit of googling for the Teleray 1061 and about all I found out is that it was released in 1978 for around $1100 and there are some quirks with it enough to get mentioned in termcap comments. I did not find schematics or a proper manual. When I got it, I didn't know what it was and I got it for the socketed parts. If anyone is trying to fix a Teleray 1061, this could be your lucky day. The chips on it are worth a few dollars to me as spares but not a vast amount. I already have more dumb terminals that I could ever use, so I see no reason why I'd ever try to turn this board into a working terminal. If someone wants it, contact me off-list, otherwise, it'll stay in the parts bin for now. -ethan ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:29:31 -0500 From: allison To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509DCA1B.80209 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/09/2012 08:41 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/9/2012 6:15 PM, allison wrote: >> On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >>> On 11/9/2012 5:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>> Tell me what toner does a P112 use or is that used to color the >>>>> 1MB of >>>>> ram?? >>>> >>>> Well, a 64-K CPM system will not print raster graphics with >>>> ease on >>>> a Laser Printer...You need more RAM! >>>> >>>> :oD >>>> >>>> Well, at least I tried :D >>>> >>> >>> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >>> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >>> 16K including the printer fonts. >>> Ben. >>> >> >> Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data rapidly >> enough to lay down dots >> as the drum rotates. > > That is a mechanical issue, not the idea of charging a drum with a laser. You are not serious. The drum rotates slowly but each line of pixels is the length of the printed area (8") times the 300line per inch of the circumference and at 8PPM the average drum in small printers turned several times to print the whole 11 inchs. It's a raster scan system. Character printers could compose at a rate that was one cell height at a time so they use band buffers that often allowed typically 8 or 16 lines on the drum to be buffered at a time while the next lines were being processed. That scheme was good to a point but there were pathological cases that resulted in page to complex and imaging failures. often overstrikes were the likely culprit. For 8PPM that means moving 7920000 pixels in about 7.5 seconds without much dead time. You cannot stop the drum during the process. The laser does not charge the drum, it's used to discharge it, you can do it with LEDs as well but they were slow back then. The typical cycle is charge corona, writing (laser, or led raster scan), developing (toner) transfer(transfer corona) and cleaning (discharge corona sometimes), and doctoring (scrape the remaining toner off with a silicone rubber blade). Repeat as eneded. Polarities and what optical range this are done are dependent on if the drum was selenium coated or the organic photoreceptor that Cannon wrapped the cartridge around. > > The old, cheaper hardware, faster software problem here. I don't think > software has yet to solve the real problem of modern printers, > is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, but that > is off topic. That belongs back with one of the threads that had NAPLPS in it or maybe WYSIWYG when WYGINS is the reality. No one prints at under 100 DPI. Maybe now with very high resolution color displays we see what we get but then the best CRT I ran in color was 1280x1024 and .27 dot pitch (about 70-80dpi) which is still coarse by then 300DPI standard. That meant the tube could not display (even in B&W) what the printer could. New we have displays that are easily better than 300dpi but printers can do 600dpi and maybe more. That doesn't even cover color. > >> The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit image >> need to exist before >> the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image >> processor can fill >> a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM >> engine) was about 7mhz. >> The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep up, >> The system IO >> to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based >> engine was not much >> slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers often >> those that were >> band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a >> higher priced version >> that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed >> before the paper >> was even moved. > > I think history of Time-Sharing computers had a big impact here. You > needed > BIG fast page laser printer to share between users, so high speed > printer was > needed. Speed I don't think changed much over the years, but build > quality HAS dropped. > No build quality is better. We ( I was part of the team that developed the LN01, LN03 and LPS40 and LPS20 series at DEC) found that getting engines that could run at speed for 90 days without breakdown was a mechanical impossibility, we had customers prove it repeatedly. Back then the choices were Cannon, Ricoh, Xerox and in about that order of durability. Getting 200,000 to 300,000 pages between failure was the challenge and price was the other. To get to 40PPM (LPS40) a microVAX in the printer pushing a custom bitslice processor and a even more custom bitbliter so that a reasonably complex page set could be printed at 40PPM. That's what it took then. But the printer took postscript directly and printed up to B size pages with no page too complex issues. Now we have cheap fast cpus that can do that. This development was in the time frame of the "workstation" so the big VAX in the back was not always the factor. However the cost of even slow printers was high enough Then that shared resource was what the customer said. The price of a 8PPM printer then is far higher than a 20ppm color printer now. So the existence of timesharing was and is a red herring as big systems printers printed less graphics and small single users wanted all the printing capability.. Often the single user was a workstation of even then a PC with Hercules or early CGA video. >> Actually I use my CP/M-80 system to lay down images on a real >> Laserjet4L. The price is that >> I need to run the system for a long time to create bit images to >> transmit. That takes hours >> even with ram and bit of buffering to hard disk. Even then the printer >> is doing much of the >> heavy lifting. > Custom software, or using a driver for a text processing package? > Very custom, in assembler as excess overhead was painful and I had one of the uncommon 10mhz z80s. I did it mostly to prove a point but waiting hours per page was not practical. Doing hi res text only documents was easy and people were doing it tot he limits of what printers were available. Graphics just wanted more of everything by many orders of magnitude. Large ram was cost and speed issues but doable then. Code can overcome a lot of things but raw CPU speed was and is the prime solution (enter GPUs). FYI I still run that LJ4L as its durable and parallel interfaces to all my systems directly save for the latest PC with no IO save for USB ( PIC24 programmed for USB to parallel solution). Allison ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:14:03 -0500 (EST) From: Mouse To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <201211100414.XAA23825 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I don't think software has yet to solve the real problem of modern > printers, is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, I don't think that - to the extent it _is_ a problem - _can_ be solved, as long as printers are higher-resolution than displays. (Not unless you artificially cripple the printout to match the display's resolution, at least.) > but that is off topic. Well, to a point. Some classic machines had display resolutions close to their printer resolutions, and the two _could_ match fairly well.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 20:36:21 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Tofu To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Sam's Computerfacts 4851 Disk Drive Message-ID: <1352522181.91090.YahooMailNeo at web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Need it. Anyone have it? Hook me up, ay/. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 10:39:21 +0000 From: Roger Pugh To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509E2ED9.7040701 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed On 10/11/2012 01:15, allison wrote: > On 11/09/2012 07:50 PM, ben wrote: >> >> >> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >> 16K including the printer fonts. >> Ben. >> > There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This cut the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was very cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think it was a canon engine. This idea was used in the "windows only" laser printers where the ripping was done on the PC and the raw data sent to the printer via parallel port. Roger ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 10:45:57 +0000 From: Roger Pugh To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509E3065.3 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed On 09/11/2012 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: >> . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if >> you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it >> in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. > I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. > > -tony Pretty much every type of printer or copier uses different photoreceptor/toner/developer/carrier. As these all work on electrostatic priniples things such as charge, spacing between components, materials used in consumables, fusing temps are all different. 11 years working at Xerox, 12 more years on toner based digital printing... Roger ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:18:19 +0000 From: Roger Pugh To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509E37FB.7050505 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed On 10/11/2012 01:15, allison wrote: > > Actually no. To do that you need to be able to process the data > rapidly enough to lay down dots > as the drum rotates. > > The key thing for Laser printing (or any page printer) is the bit > image need to exist before > the paper moves or at least be preprocessed so that the raster image > processor can fill > a "band buffer" . The Video dot rate for a DEC LN01 (xerox 12PPM > engine) was about 7mhz. > The early character only version use a 12mhz 80186 with 8089 to keep > up, The system IO > to the host was handled by the 8089. Oddly the 8PPM LN03 Ricoh based > engine was not much > slower on the video clock. In the late 80s there were two lasers > often those that were > band buffer and generally limited to text and limited graphics and a > higher priced version > that had enough ram to buffer the page so the image could be composed > before the paper > was even moved. I am a tech at a company called XEIKON. We manufacture color digital presses.. We print on rolls of paper of upto 50cm (20inch) at 1200DPI at speeds of 19 meters a min (about 60ft/min??). The presses are 5 colour on both sides.. Being roll fed presses we cant stop the press and wait for the data, LOTS of FPGA's are required to keep up the data stream. We are low end industrial, some of the expensive stuff like Kodaks Prosper of course need lots more.... Roger ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:41:04 -0700 From: ben To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? Message-ID: <509E7590.3070405 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/9/2012 9:14 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I don't think software has yet to solve the real problem of modern >> printers, is that text on the screen does NOT match the printed page, > > I don't think that - to the extent it _is_ a problem - _can_ be solved, > as long as printers are higher-resolution than displays. (Not unless > you artificially cripple the printout to match the display's > resolution, at least.) > >> but that is off topic. > > Well, to a point. Some classic machines had display resolutions close > to their printer resolutions, and the two _could_ match fairly well.... Well not resolution issue, but font scaling. Windows seems to have lost TrueType somewhere on my machine. For what little C programing I do, fixed with fonts is what I want! Ben. PS. If people were happy with printer output, programs like TeX would not be here. ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:50:02 +0100 From: Joost van de Griek To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 Message-ID: <802939B0-23D9-4074-99A4-29D786921F3C at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 9 Nov 2012, at 23:41 , Schindler Patrik wrote: > Am 09.11.2012 um 20:46 schrieb Tony Duell: > >>> I recall the same thing. >> And o yet again Apple did not adhere to an accepted standard.... > > Yes, because the monitor port on Macs already had been DB15-F, years before Macs with Onboard-Ethernet came to life. Apple was eager to keep setting up Macs as easy as possible. That includes distinct connectors for distinct functions. Size was also a consideration. Standard AUI connectors would ill fit on PowerBooks. .tsooJ -- There are perhaps 5% of the population that simply can't think. There are another 5% who can, and do. The remaining 90% can think, but don't. - Robert A. Heinlein -- Joost van de Griek ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 09:02:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jack Rubin To: classiccomp list , Ed Groenenberg , Philipp Hachtmann Subject: Needed - rear brackets for BA23 mounting kit Message-ID: <1352566935.26136.YahooMailRC at web181304.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm racking a BA23 system into a corporate cabinet, using a BA23-AR mounting kit. I have the rails, front brackets and front cover but I'm lacking the rear brackets that secure the rails to the rear cabinet posts. Apparently some racks require these brackets and some don't. I have _three_ racking kits and none of them have the rear brackets. The brackets are short pieces of sheet metal, about 2" deep and 3" high. They are bent in a shallow U shape with an extended tab on one leg. Part numbers are 7428372-01 and 7428372-02 (left and right sides). They are shown in the BA23 Enclosure Maintenance manual, p 2-22. Please let me know if you can spare a pair (or more) of these items. Thank you, Jack ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:43:57 +0100 From: Jochen Kunz To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To Metcal, or not to Metcal? Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition Message-ID: <20121110184357.52697ee564c856131a1e998a at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:27:25 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > If you end up getting one, > I'd appreciate knowing what you think of it. The Oki MFR-2241 arrived today. I did some (de-) soldering on scrap PCBs in the last hours. It is amazing how the small 1 mm chisel cartridge heats up large through hole pins soldered to big ground planes. My old iron wolud not be able to do this, in no way. The OKi tips are thin and short. Wheres the heater + tip of my old iron is much thicker and longer. A touch up on a single SMD pin is much easier with the OKi, as the total length of the tip is much shorter. The "precision" tweezers aren't that precise as expected, but its OK. Wane desolder that SO8? Grab with the tweezers, wait a second or two and it comes off. Wane desolder that LM2676 (dPak)? Tin the leads for better heat conduction, grab with the tweezers, wait some more seconds (large ground plane under the chip) and it comes off... My setup cost me 830 EUR (approx. 1055US$) including some tips. The single PSU variant, MFR-1100, is 300 EUR (approx. 380US$). If you are in buissines for a new soldering iron and can spend that much money, get at least a MFR-1100. It is worth every single cent! I'll get a pair of larger tips for the tweezers later. These are expensive, around 100 EUR. But desoldering a DIP16 or the like will be a piece of cake with them. p.s. At unpacking I noticed that the pacel had been droped top down onto the flor. But the PSU survived without a single scratch. It is build out of cast aluminium. It is heavy and build like a tank. Its really industrial grade equipment. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} End of cctalk Digest, Vol 111, Issue 25 *************************************** From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 13:06:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:06:49 -0800 Subject: old tv's and CRT's In-Reply-To: <02cd01cdbf6f$45eff040$d1cfd0c0$@liftoff.at> References: <02cd01cdbf6f$45eff040$d1cfd0c0$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: <509EA5C9.4080202@sydex.com> On 11/10/2012 10:14 AM, Gerhard Kreuzer wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > NTSC ... Never The Same Color > > Gerhard Yup. That was driven home to me in a big way years ago, when a friend from the UK sent me a VHS PAL player and a bunch of tapes. I built a PAL-to-RGB decoder and ran them into a decent monitor. Even with this lashup, I was impressed with the color quality and the absolute lack of the need for twiddling controls to get a decent rendition. But even today with DTV, if I walk into a big-box store and look at the "wall of TVs" offered for sale, the color differences between models is quite startling. One would assume that such things as color rendition would be standardized today, but it seems not to be the case. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 10 14:47:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 12:47:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509E3065.3@mac.com> References: <509E3065.3@mac.com> Message-ID: <20121110112734.K26893@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Nov 2012, Roger Pugh wrote: > Pretty much every type of printer or copier uses different > photoreceptor/toner/developer/carrier. As these all work on > electrostatic priniples things such as charge, spacing between > components, materials used in consumables, fusing temps are all different. > 11 years working at Xerox, 12 more years on toner based digital printing... In the Canon PC-1/CX (THIS discussion) all of those variables were kept the same as much as possible, From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 10 15:05:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:05:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> from "Christian Kennedy" at Nov 9, 12 02:38:28 pm Message-ID: > > > On 9 Nov 2012, at 1:32 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > > Color CRT monitors have 3 guns (red, blue, and green) but a mono monitor has > > only 1 gun. So even if you used filters to "fool" yourself into thinking > > color, it can't actually be color, because there is only 1 gun! > > *cough* Trinitron *cough* A Trinitron CRT has 3 cathodes (one for each priamry colour), albeit with one set of grids/anodes in front of them. Whether that's one electorn gun or three is a matter of debate. However, I do not see why a single cathode, single electron gun CRT can't display a colour image. Onme scheme that was proposd was to put narrow vertical stripes of the 3 phosphors on the screen, have no shaddowmask or apaertuee grille and just sacn one beam over them. Then swithc the modulation signal appopriately as the beam passes each colour of phosphor. Getting the switching synchronised with the beam position was the problem, anmd AFAIK it was never used commercially, but ti could work. And I still don't see why a B&W CRT with a rotating colour filter wheel in front does not displa colour images for any reasonable definition of 'colour image'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 10 15:08:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:08:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <239E9962-8E52-4D57-BAA0-14042B4C1D73@pocnet.net> from "Schindler Patrik" at Nov 9, 12 11:41:24 pm Message-ID: > >> I recall the same thing. > > And o yet again Apple did not adhere to an accepted standard.... > > > Yes, because the monitor port on Macs already had been DB15-F, years You mean DA15F, surely. > before Macs with Onboard-Ethernet came to life. Apple was eager to > keep setting up Macs as easy as possible. That includes distinct > connectors for distinct functions. This does not jsutify the change of transceiver supply voltage IMHO. A connector change is a lot easier than also having to make a voltage comverter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 10 15:11:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:11:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <20121109145720.C99726@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 9, 12 03:00:45 pm Message-ID: > > > > . . . and the lab staff at the college (25 years ago) found out that if > > > you fill the copier cartridge with printer toner, and then try to use it > > > in the copier, it produces a very poor quality reverse video image. > On Fri, 9 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder whathte physical explanation for that is. > > The only explanation that I was given was: > "The company selling the refill kit (Torx driver, page of instructions, > bag of toner) sent the wrong toner." Err, yes :-) What I was really asking is what is the physcal difference between the 2 toners that cause them to behave differntly. What is the physical meaning of 'The toner has a different polarity'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 10 15:44:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:44:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 10, 12 10:39:21 am Message-ID: > There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later > model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This > cut the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was > very cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think > it was a canon engine. Such thigs were made for a variety of computer systems. I certainly saw one on an Acorn Archimedes. Grumpy Old Fred mentioned ISA carts to drive one. The PERQ laser printer interface was like this too (it used the PERQ praserop machine to help generate the page data). I would not be suprised if there wasn't such a printer for Suns. The interface was often called either 'direct engien interface' or 'video interface'. The de facto standard was that of the Canon CX engine. The 'DC controlelr board' (the board that cotnains a microcontroller and a gate array to cotnrol the laser power, motors, etc) in the CX pritner has a 34 pin header conenctr of the input form the formatter board. The CX-VDO model simply conencts this to the external DC37 conenctor, there is no formatter board in the printer. It's been some years since I repaired a CX pritner, turned it into a CX-VDO, and got the PERQ interfce workign. But I can still rememebr some of it. Basically, the itnerface consists of a series of low-ish speed TTL signals and a couple of differnetial ones, essentialy at RS422 levels (the drivers and receivers are 26LS31s and 26LS32s IIRC). The print sequence is soemthing like : Assert a signal to the pritner to tell it to start a page. This will get the motors turning, get the scanenr up to speed, and turn the laser on apprppraitely so that a beam detect (synchronisation) pulse is produced for each scan line. A piece of paper is then picked up and fed as far as the registraion shutter. At this point the pritner asserts a synchronisation signal abck to the host computer to say that it's done this. The host then asserts a signal to say 'start a page'. The registration shutter opens, the paper is fed towards the drum. Note that if you don';t do this in time, the printer shuts down with a paper jam error. Now the host watches the 'Beam detect' signal, one of the differential pairs. You get a pulse there for every scan line. The laster is automatically tuend on at about the appropriate time, and as the beam is deflected off the rotating polygonal mirror onto sensor, you get this pulse) The host drives the other differential pair to turn the laser on and off during each scan line. This is how it prodcues a pattern of dots on the page. Note that once you've strted a page you have to keep on sendign data until the page is complete. You can't pause it. I seem to rememebr therrs a clock and a couple of data liens for a serial interfae to the engine control microprocessor. THis lets you do thigns like select the single sheet feed, monitor the printer status (check for erors, like paper jamp), etc. But I never had to bothter with that. -tony From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Nov 10 16:54:21 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 22:54:21 +0000 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509EDB1D.7030801@mac.com> On 10/11/2012 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > What I was really asking is what is the physcal difference between the > 2 toners that cause them to behave differntly. What is the physical > meaning of 'The toner has a different polarity'? -tony Laser printer toner tends to be mono component, that is it does not require a separate carrier or developer to transport it to the photoreceptor and is magnetic. Copier toner tends to require a separate carrier that is made of a coated magnetic powder. The Carrier is recycled and not consumed, but does wear out over time. Laser printers work by charging a light sensitive, semiconducting drum or belt, the charge will vary depending on the type of material used. The drum may be charged positive or negative. A laser or LED array will then erase certain parts of the charge on the photoreceptor, then depending on which and how much charge the toner carries it will stick to either the charged or discharged areas. These charges are always different even on m/c's made by the same company so toners are rarely the same between m/c's. Also fusing tempratures of these toners are different. not enough heat and you can rub the toner from the sheet, too much it sticks to the fusing rollers.. Roger From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 10 19:00:21 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 01:00:21 -0000 Subject: Drool!!! Message-ID: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 b8d8d5b Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 20:31:59 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:31:59 -0500 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co > mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 > b8d8d5b Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 20:36:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 21:36:07 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> Message-ID: <509F0F17.4080800@neurotica.com> On 11/10/2012 05:39 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: >>> Well if you could access the toner drum directly from the host cpu, I >>> am sure you could emulate a generic mono-spaced printer like a TTY in >>> 16K including the printer fonts. > > There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later > model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This > cut the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was > very cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think > it was a canon engine. This is also how the NeXT printer works. It's an SX engine. It's surprisingly fast at rendering complex pages. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 10 21:17:58 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 22:17:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509F0F17.4080800@neurotica.com> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> <509F0F17.4080800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201211110317.WAA28227@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or >> later model) that did away with the processor and and used the >> atari. > This is also how the NeXT printer works. It's an SX engine. It's > surprisingly fast at rendering complex pages. There's also something called a SPARCprinter which is a similar device for use on (surprise surprise!) SPARCs. (The interface, at least in the cases I've seen, is an Sbus card - the SUNW,lpvi.) I got mine working under NetBSD ages ago, but haven't done anything of significance with it since. It has the interesting feature that it can run at either 300 or 400 dpi, selectable by the host, and that it can use smaller-than-full-page page bitmaps, supports seven different paper sizes, and can separately invert the page bitmap or the fill around the page bitmap. Unfortunately, the inverting bits don't actually change it between write-white and write-black. :) Of course, you need nearly twice as much memory for a page bitmap at 400 as you do for the same paper area at 300, though neither is all that much for a fully loaded higher-end SPARCstation, which, my impression is, tends to be the sort most people who still run SPARCstations have. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 22:05:48 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 22:05:48 -0600 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: indeed beauty On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co > > > mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 > > b8d8d5b > > Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! > Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 23:56:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 23:56:39 -0600 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( Message-ID: dunno what to do with these http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4628/cardsdn.jpg witch aparently came outa one of these http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2431/machean.jpg witch was used for testing peoples ability to drive while drunk. anyone interested? otherwise the local hackerspace is going to send to the trash heap From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 00:25:56 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 22:25:56 -0800 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509F44F4.1030207@gmail.com> The testing on that device appear to have be brutal unless I am reading wrong. They made the subject test it at 1.2% BAC. I wonder how many died. Wouldn't they all ? http://pro.sagepub.com/content/31/7/751 On 11/10/2012 9:56 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > dunno what to do with these > > http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4628/cardsdn.jpg > > witch aparently came outa one of these > http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2431/machean.jpg > > witch was used for testing peoples ability to drive while drunk. > > anyone interested? otherwise the local hackerspace is going to send to the > trash heap From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Nov 11 08:00:42 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 09:00:42 -0500 Subject: updated N8VEM PCB inventory list Message-ID: <001201cdc015$0a17f1c0$1e47d540$@YAHOO.COM> Hi I've updated the N8VEM wiki PCB inventory list to correct several inaccuracies and correct quantities available. There are many PCBs remaining so if you are looking for some please contact me. Especially there are some recent PCBs for the ECB like the DSKY, Color VDU, MF/PIC, and DiskIO V3 which may be of interest to you. There are technical data for these PCBs on the N8VEM wiki including schematics, PCB layout, KiCAD EDA files, software, photos, etc. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=Board%20Informa tion Using the N8VEM mini SBC V8 and/or the ECB backplane PCBs is sufficient to build your own system. There are sufficient 6x0x PCBs to build 6502, 6809, or 6802 CPU based computers. There are some mini-boards like AT2XTKBD for $5 each that allow connecting AT/PS/2 keyboards to PC/XT computers. Also there are ECB to Z80 socket adapters which allow the ECB boards to be connected to a Z80 socketed CPU rather than an ECB bus. Here is the link for your review: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB%20Inventory The PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. If you are considering getting one or more now is the time! I am stuck and need to move the remaining boards to free up the funds to do other board orders/reorders. I appreciate all the community support for the N8VEM home brew computing project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, there is also one S-100 8088 CPU board PCB remaining. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 09:25:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:25:06 -0500 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509FC352.5060900@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2012 12:56 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > dunno what to do with these > > http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4628/cardsdn.jpg > > witch aparently came outa one of these > http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2431/machean.jpg > > witch was used for testing peoples ability to drive while drunk. > > anyone interested? otherwise the local hackerspace is going to send to the > trash heap What the hell kind of a "hackerspace" would trash stuff so full of useful components? I'd never associate with such a group. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 10:27:36 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:27:36 -0600 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509FD1F8.7060008@gmail.com> On 11/10/2012 11:56 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > dunno what to do with these > > http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4628/cardsdn.jpg > > witch aparently came outa one of these > http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2431/machean.jpg What happened to the rest of the machine? It has an old enough feel that the displays might be something interesting. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 10:29:47 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:29:47 -0600 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: <509FC352.5060900@neurotica.com> References: <509FC352.5060900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509FD27B.3010505@gmail.com> On 11/11/2012 09:25 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > otherwise the local hackerspace is going to send to the >> trash heap > > What the hell kind of a "hackerspace" would trash stuff so full of > useful components? I'd never associate with such a group. The local hackerspace should really get back to reading how to run Linux on their Nintendo Wiis... :-) From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Nov 11 10:57:52 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 10:57:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: <509FD1F8.7060008@gmail.com> References: <509FD1F8.7060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/10/2012 11:56 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> dunno what to do with these >> >> http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4628/cardsdn.jpg >> >> witch aparently came outa one of these >> http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2431/machean.jpg > > What happened to the rest of the machine? It has an old enough feel that the > displays might be something interesting. If I had to guess, since it was built into a nice aluminum case, probably cut up with a Dremel and now houses an LCD and a MicroATX motherboard. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 11 13:10:37 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:10:37 -0500 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: <509FC352.5060900@neurotica.com> References: <509FC352.5060900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509FF82D.8010004@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/11/12 10:25 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/11/2012 12:56 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> dunno what to do with these >> >> http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4628/cardsdn.jpg >> >> witch aparently came outa one of these >> http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2431/machean.jpg >> >> witch was used for testing peoples ability to drive while drunk. >> >> anyone interested? otherwise the local hackerspace is going to send to the >> trash heap > > What the hell kind of a "hackerspace" would trash stuff so full of > useful components? I'd never associate with such a group. Exactly. I know people who would scavenge the components off these. Adrian, you should consider keeping them for a likely future when the fashion at Hacker News turns to soldering and component level hacking. "Oh? We threw out all that old junk when the fashion was Raspberry Pi" --T > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 13:27:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:27:43 -0500 Subject: direct-video printers, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <201211110317.WAA28227@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> <509F0F17.4080800@neurotica.com> <201211110317.WAA28227@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <509FFC2F.7080902@neurotica.com> On 11/10/2012 10:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or >>> later model) that did away with the processor and and used the >>> atari. >> This is also how the NeXT printer works. It's an SX engine. It's >> surprisingly fast at rendering complex pages. > > There's also something called a SPARCprinter which is a similar device > for use on (surprise surprise!) SPARCs. (The interface, at least in > the cases I've seen, is an Sbus card - the SUNW,lpvi.) I got mine > working under NetBSD ages ago, but haven't done anything of > significance with it since. > > It has the interesting feature that it can run at either 300 or 400 > dpi, selectable by the host, and that it can use smaller-than-full-page > page bitmaps, supports seven different paper sizes, and can separately > invert the page bitmap or the fill around the page bitmap. > Unfortunately, the inverting bits don't actually change it between > write-white and write-black. :) Oh yes, I had forgotten about the SPARCprinter. Very nice. This reminds me, I'm pretty sure the NeXT printer was actually run at 400dpi. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 13:28:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 14:28:21 -0500 Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: <509F44F4.1030207@gmail.com> References: <509F44F4.1030207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2012, at 1:25 AM, mc68010 wrote: > The testing on that device appear to have be brutal unless I am reading wrong. They made the subject test it at 1.2% BAC. I wonder how many died. Wouldn't they all ? > > http://pro.sagepub.com/content/31/7/751 Um, yeah. At first I thought it was a typo, but they have similar concentrations elsewhere and give the correct mg/L, so... isn't greater than .50% generally at high risk for alcohol poisoning? - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 13:45:57 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:45:57 +0000 Subject: direct-video printers, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509FFC2F.7080902@neurotica.com> References: <509D779E.30407@neurotica.com> <509D8E1C.7000706@verizon.net> <5A3297F6A7834D649F33D6EB0E3AA0B0@tababook> <509DA4E9.3020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <509DAA9E.2010702@verizon.net> <509E2ED9.7040701@mac.com> <509F0F17.4080800@neurotica.com> <201211110317.WAA28227@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <509FFC2F.7080902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11 November 2012 19:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/10/2012 10:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or >>>> later model) that did away with the processor and and used the >>>> atari. >>> This is also how the NeXT printer works. It's an SX engine. It's >>> surprisingly fast at rendering complex pages. >> >> There's also something called a SPARCprinter which is a similar device >> for use on (surprise surprise!) SPARCs. (The interface, at least in >> the cases I've seen, is an Sbus card - the SUNW,lpvi.) I got mine >> working under NetBSD ages ago, but haven't done anything of >> significance with it since. >> >> It has the interesting feature that it can run at either 300 or 400 >> dpi, selectable by the host, and that it can use smaller-than-full-page >> page bitmaps, supports seven different paper sizes, and can separately >> invert the page bitmap or the fill around the page bitmap. >> Unfortunately, the inverting bits don't actually change it between >> write-white and write-black. :) > > Oh yes, I had forgotten about the SPARCprinter. Very nice. > > This reminds me, I'm pretty sure the NeXT printer was actually run at > 400dpi. I think you're right. It's not quite correct to compare the NeXT laser printer with the later GDI printers for Windows and so on, though - even those have enough smarts to take a command stream from the parallel port, interpret it and print it. I think a closer comparison might be the Amstrad PCW printers, which were directly driven by the computer's logic and had no onboard logic of their own at all. I don't know enough about the NeXT laser to say for sure, though. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Nov 11 15:21:42 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:21:42 +0000 Subject: Progress manuals Message-ID: <11BE36CE-1434-4A76-AA16-CA65E5CC3B49@mail2.cu-portland.edu> Anyone here familiar with the Progress database and 4GL? I have a pretty complete set of manuals and a partial set for v8 that I'd be willing to give for free minus postage... Anyone interested? -Ben From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sun Nov 11 16:20:35 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:20:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon Message-ID: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi list, I'm almost done with the scanning of the 25-30 Sperry-Univac/Unisys binders regarding OS/3, System-80 and DCP-hardware, I got from a company years ago. Parts of it are already online on bitsavers, the rest will be made available to Al at the end of year. I just wanted to make sure the content is scanned and thus saved and as I don't have the hardware and therefore no use for it, I'd like to give the documentation away to somebody who is interested in that. I'll give the documents to whoever seems most approriate from my point of view. Hints to institutions or persons not being on the list and favourable from you point of you are welcome, too. Documents are located in Germany. Shipping would cost and need to be organised if you don't want to pick up, but I'd help with organisation, if possible. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sun Nov 11 16:20:35 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:20:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon Message-ID: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi list, I'm almost done with the scanning of the 25-30 Sperry-Univac/Unisys binders regarding OS/3, System-80 and DCP-hardware, I got from a company years ago. Parts of it are already online on bitsavers, the rest will be made available to Al at the end of year. I just wanted to make sure the content is scanned and thus saved and as I don't have the hardware and therefore no use for it, I'd like to give the documentation away to somebody who is interested in that. I'll give the documents to whoever seems most approriate from my point of view. Hints to institutions or persons not being on the list and favourable from you point of you are welcome, too. Documents are located in Germany. Shipping would cost and need to be organised if you don't want to pick up, but I'd help with organisation, if possible. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 16:01:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:01:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509F0F17.4080800@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 10, 12 09:36:07 pm Message-ID: > > There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later > > model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This > > cut the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was > > very cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think > > it was a canon engine. > > This is also how the NeXT printer works. It's an SX engine. It's > surprisingly fast at rendering complex pages. AS I mentioend ewarlier, there was a VDO interface board abailable for the SX printer. The orinial/official one fitted in place of the formatter, it was just a simple set of buffers. The SX DC controller board has single-ended 'beam detect' and 'video' signals whic hare not really suitable tfor sending down the cable to/from the host. I am told the serial[1] control.status interface on the SX is upwards compatible with that on the CX, the former accepts a few more comamnds. I've never managed to get a list of the commands/status messages that are used on this interface, fortunately you can ignore it if you just want ot pritn from the nornmal paper tray, etc. [1] This is a synchronous interfce with a separae clock signal. It's not evenclose to RS232 . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 16:24:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:24:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: direct-video printers, was Re: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Nov 11, 12 07:45:57 pm Message-ID: > I think a closer comparison might be the Amstrad PCW printers, which > were directly driven by the computer's logic and had no onboard logic > of their own at all. I don't know enough about the NeXT laser to say > for sure, though. In a way, yes. In both cases, the major part of the electorncis fro a 'standard' pritner of that type is missing. The Amstrad PCW pritner interface is essentially the drive signals for the pritnhead solenoids and stapper motor widings (at least fo the dot matrix version). There leectroncis in thew printer is jsut the driver stages. The CX-VDO printe does have rather more electroncis in it than that, but what it doens;'t have is the formatter board to tapme commands and ata from the hsot and turn them into the signals to drive the laser. The electroncis in a CX-VDO (and the SX-VDO for that matter) is the low-level stuff to cotnrol the motors (get them running at the right speed), sequence the clutches and solenoids to feed the paper properly, cotnro lthe fuser temparature, the laser intensity, and so on. The interface, as I described last night, is basically a few signals to start a new page adn then a signal to pulse the laser o nand off. So in both cases you ahve to genenrate precisely timed pulses at the interface conenctor to get the printer mechanism to do what you want it to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 15:57:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:57:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <509EDB1D.7030801@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 10, 12 10:54:21 pm Message-ID: > Laser printer toner tends to be mono component, that is it does not > require a separate carrier or developer to transport it to the > photoreceptor and is magnetic. Copier toner tends to require a separate > carrier that is made of a coated magnetic powder. The Carrier is > recycled and not consumed, but does wear out over time. Small desktop copiers, like the Canon one that started this discussion seem to have monocomponent toner too. At least, there is one reservoir inside the cartridge ,the toner seems to be one material, and it is magnetc. Jaut like laser printer toner. > > Laser printers work by charging a light sensitive, semiconducting drum > or belt, the charge will vary depending on the type of material used. > The drum may be charged positive or negative. A laser or LED array will > then erase certain parts of the charge on the photoreceptor, then > depending on which and how much charge the toner carries it will stick > to either the charged or discharged areas. These charges are always > different even on m/c's made by the same company so toners are rarely > the same between m/c's. How does this differ , in principle, from the operaiton of a small photocopier? The sort of copier we're discussign works by having a photosensitive drum. It is first given a precodnitioning exposure (essentially to discharge it, btu that is an oversimplification), then it is charged, thne light reflected fro mteh origianl is focussed on the drum. Then chargerd toner is applied. Then the toner is pulled from the drum onto the paper by the 'tranfer corona wire' under the paper. Jsut like a lasrt printer, in fact. > > Also fusing tempratures of these toners are different. not enough heat > and you can rub the toner from the sheet, too much it sticks to the > fusing rollers.. Is ther eay reason in principle why a photocopier has to use a differnt fussing temperature to a laser printer. If so, what is this reason? -tony From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:42:30 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:42:30 +1100 Subject: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon In-Reply-To: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: wonderful news Pierre! good work on what sounds to be a Herculean scanning project. I have half of a Unisys System 80/7E (it is actually a Unisys A-series A4 with a different microcode load to support the System 80 ISA). I'm hoping to get the remainder of the system sometime in the next year, however aside from a brochure I have zero documentation for the system and have found very little about OS3 itself. I will be glad to make use of the PDFs once they are available (thank you for submitting them to bitsavers) and would like to see the printed material go to a formal organisation for long term preservation. However if no one steps up then I can be a custodian-of-last-resort rather than seeing the material discarded. cheers, nigel. www.retroComputingTasmania.com On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > I just wanted to make sure the content is scanned and thus saved and as I > don't have the hardware and therefore no use for it, I'd like to give the > documentation away to somebody who is interested in that. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 11 18:39:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :( In-Reply-To: References: <509F44F4.1030207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121111163419.O70658@shell.lmi.net> > > The testing on that device appear to have be brutal unless I am > > reading wrong. They made the subject test it at 1.2% BAC. I wonder > > how many died. Wouldn't they all ? > > http://pro.sagepub.com/content/31/7/751 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > Um, yeah. At first I thought it was a typo, but they have similar > concentrations elsewhere and give the correct mg/L, so... isn't > greater than .50% generally at high risk for alcohol poisoning? What's the LD-50 for ethanol? High school chechemistry/phyusics class "experiments", many "studirs" and "surveys", and many "tests" are NOT intended to actually measure anything, but instead, are intended to DEMONSTRATE things in the guide of a "test". In this case, that massive overdoses might impair driving ability? From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 18:42:11 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 17:42:11 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50A045E3.805@gmail.com> On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rob Doyle wrote: >> What exactly are the architectural differences between a KS and >> KL? > > The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model > B".[*] > > The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW > user address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The > Model B adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to > the logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of > them, for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address > space to 8 Mwords. > > Multiple section support involves changes to the way paging works, > introducing an additional level of tables. It also adds > complications to indirect words, byte pointers, and the PXCT > instruction, among other things. > > The KS10 does not support multiple sections. Its data paths were > not designed for it, so there is no efficient way to add multiple > section support merely by adding microcode. From a non-system > programmer's perspective, the KS10 is similar to a KL10 Model A. I'm still trying to understand the KS10 paging. The KS10 hardware supports a 20-bit VMA but no sections - which /should/ allow 1 MW memory. Apparently ADP had modifications to implement 1 MW of memory. Was the 512 KW memory limitation just a implementation limitation: 8 slots with 64 KW per slot? Or more than that? Did the ADP KS10s run unmodified versions of the OSs? Thanks. Rob. The KS10 FPGA is running well enough to execute (and fail) the DEC Instruction Set Diagnostics. Each day it runs some more instructions before halting. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 19:04:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:04:04 -0500 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A04B04.8050100@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2012 05:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There was a laserprinter available for i think the Atari ST (or later >>> model) that did away with the processor and and used the atari. This >>> cut the cost of the printer down to about 1000 pounds/dollars which was >>> very cheap in its time, esp when compared to the apple laser.. I think >>> it was a canon engine. >> >> This is also how the NeXT printer works. It's an SX engine. It's >> surprisingly fast at rendering complex pages. > > AS I mentioend ewarlier, there was a VDO interface board abailable for > the SX printer. The orinial/official one fitted in place of the > formatter, it was just a simple set of buffers. The SX DC controller > board has single-ended 'beam detect' and 'video' signals whic hare not > really suitable tfor sending down the cable to/from the host. > > I am told the serial[1] control.status interface on the SX is upwards > compatible with that on the CX, the former accepts a few more comamnds. > I've never managed to get a list of the commands/status messages that are > used on this interface, fortunately you can ignore it if you just want ot > pritn from the nornmal paper tray, etc. > > [1] This is a synchronous interfce with a separae clock signal. It's not > evenclose to RS232 . The NeXT printer, if memory serves, connects to the desktop machine via a DE9 connector. This suggests (at least I think it does) that there's another board in there that's talking to the DC controller...I don't think nine pins is enough for the whole "dumb" control interface, especially if there are high-speed differential signals in the mix eating up a pair of lines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tingox at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 07:40:51 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:40:51 +0100 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Francois Dion wrote: > I posted about the p112 to the raspberry pi forum a little while back. > I also just did today a post on my blog. I get 500-1000 visitors a > day, maybe it'll help, but I think the few interested were already > aware from the raspberry pi forum. I'll post about it to our local > hackerspace too. Only 57 hours left. If you want one, now is the time to pitch in. I'm not sure that all of the current backers have the financial muscle for a "plan b"... -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 07:40:54 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:40:54 -0500 Subject: What is a VT52-NE Message-ID: The RICM just received a VT52-NE donation. Any idea what the difference is between a VT52-AA and VT52-NE? -- Michael Thompson From j at ckrubin.us Sat Nov 10 10:57:31 2012 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 16:57:31 +0000 Subject: Looking for bracket for BA23 rack mount rails Message-ID: I'm racking a BA23 system into a corporate cabinet, using a BA23-AR mounting kit. I have the rails, front brackets and front cover but I'm lacking the rear brackets that secure the rails to the rear cabinet posts. Apparently some racks require these brackets and some don't. I have _three_ racking kits and none of them have the rear brackets. The brackets are short pieces of sheet metal, about 2" deep and 3" high. They are bent in a shallow U shape with an extended tab on one leg. Part numbers are 7428372-01 and 7428372-02 (left and right sides). They are shown in the BA23 Enclosure Maintenance manual, p 2-22. Please let me know if you can spare a pair (or more) of these items. Thank you, Jack From lee_courtney at acm.org Sat Nov 10 19:07:30 2012 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:07:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Three TI Silent 700's - FREE Menlo Park CA 94025 Pick-up Only In-Reply-To: <20121110112734.K26893@shell.lmi.net> References: <509E3065.3@mac.com> <20121110112734.K26893@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1352596050.46225.YahooMailNeo@web140604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have three TI Silent 700s available to the first person that claims them. Two power up, third does not. The two that power up print, but not legible. If not claimed by Monday November 19th will go in the trash. No shipping - local pickup only. Contact me off-list for pics or with questions. ? Lee Courtney From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sun Nov 11 14:32:38 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 07:32:38 +1100 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 11/11/2012, at 1:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >> b8d8d5b > > Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! > Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 19:55:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:55:00 -0500 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <50A056F4.2000501@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2012 03:32 PM, Huw Davies wrote: >>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >>> b8d8d5b >> >> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! >> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! > > Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) > > This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... YOU MUST GET THIS MACHINE. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Nov 11 19:55:23 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:55:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 11/11/2012, at 1:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >>> b8d8d5b >> >> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! >> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! > > Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) > > This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... Resistance is futile - your storage space will be absorbed. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 20:05:43 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:05:43 -0800 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A056F4.2000501@neurotica.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50A056F4.2000501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50A05977.30609@gmail.com> On 11/11/2012 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/11/2012 03:32 PM, Huw Davies wrote: >>> dy in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! >> Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) >> >> This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... > YOU MUST GET THIS MACHINE. > > -Dave > I second the motion. That is pretty much one of the systems I dream of having. Of course, if that auction was in the US it would go for way more than I could afford to pay. Not may of those around and too many collectors/museums with deep pockets in the US. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 11 22:05:37 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:05:37 -0600 Subject: HP FAB needed Message-ID: I need an HP 21MX/E FAB board, preferrably with E-FPP and E-DMI. If possible, would also like a blank FAB as a spare. Even if all you have is a blank board, I'd still be interested and I'd just burn the roms for it. Anyone have any of the above and willing to make some trade or $$? If so, drop me an email! J From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 11 22:46:32 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:46:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Really networking an SE/30 Message-ID: Let's try this again... Can I get a step-by-step on going from a fresh install of System 6 on a Macintosh SE/30 to being able to share files from a netatalk server? Here's what I have in inventory: System 6 install floppies Asante PSD ethernet board for SE/30 with install floppy MacTCP 2.0.6 MacTCP 2.1 MacTCP Ping 2.0.2 (doesn't recognize MacTCP 2.1) ZM Appleshare Workstation 3.5 Network Software Install 1.5.1 The ethernet board blinks when plugged into a network. That's as far as I can get. The interface for MacTCP is impenetrable. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 22:55:09 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:55:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Really networking an SE/30 In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Nov 11, 12 08:46:32 pm" Message-ID: <201211120455.qAC4t9wY30343198@floodgap.com> > Can I get a step-by-step on going from a fresh install of System 6 on a > Macintosh SE/30 to being able to share files from a netatalk server? No, we want to talk about peripheral topics vaguely related to your question. (also: ;-) ) > Here's what I have in inventory: > > System 6 install floppies > Asante PSD ethernet board for SE/30 with install floppy > MacTCP 2.0.6 > MacTCP 2.1 > MacTCP Ping 2.0.2 (doesn't recognize MacTCP 2.1) > ZM Appleshare Workstation 3.5 > Network Software Install 1.5.1 > > The ethernet board blinks when plugged into a network. That's as far as I > can get. The interface for MacTCP is impenetrable. Is netatalk speaking real EtherTalk Phase 2? Or is it speaking AFP-over-TCP? The netatalk server on my network speaks real DDP. MacTCP shouldn't be part of this equation. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everything is permissible, but not everything is expedient. -- 1 Cor 6:12 -- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 11 23:32:17 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Really networking an SE/30 In-Reply-To: <201211120455.qAC4t9wY30343198@floodgap.com> References: <201211120455.qAC4t9wY30343198@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Can I get a step-by-step on going from a fresh install of System 6 on a >> Macintosh SE/30 to being able to share files from a netatalk server? > > No, we want to talk about peripheral topics vaguely related to your question. > > (also: ;-) ) > >> Here's what I have in inventory: >> >> System 6 install floppies >> Asante PSD ethernet board for SE/30 with install floppy >> MacTCP 2.0.6 >> MacTCP 2.1 >> MacTCP Ping 2.0.2 (doesn't recognize MacTCP 2.1) >> ZM Appleshare Workstation 3.5 >> Network Software Install 1.5.1 >> >> The ethernet board blinks when plugged into a network. That's as far as I >> can get. The interface for MacTCP is impenetrable. > > Is netatalk speaking real EtherTalk Phase 2? Or is it speaking AFP-over-TCP? > The netatalk server on my network speaks real DDP. MacTCP shouldn't be part > of this equation. I have netatalk running on my regular multipurpose headless server as installed from apt-get. I also have an a2server[1] Virtualbox image running. At the very least I want EtherTalk. MacTCP would be nice just to talk ftp, telnet, or maybe ssh. I'm not terribly interested in running web browsers (that's where the previous thread derailed). I'm sure what I'm doing with netatalk. a2server seems to have its netatalk settings hidden somewhere nonstandard. I'm not sure if I have the main server's netatalk configured right. [1] http://appleii.ivanx.com/a2server/index.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 12 00:29:13 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:29:13 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <50A045E3.805@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> <50A045E3.805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A09739.3000204@brouhaha.com> Rob Doyle wrote about the KS10 physical address space: > Was the 512 KW memory limitation just a implementation limitation: > 8 slots with 64 KW per slot? Yes. From bear at typewritten.org Mon Nov 12 03:12:35 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:12:35 -0800 Subject: Really networking an SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2012, at 8:46 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Can I get a step-by-step on going from a fresh install of System 6 on a Macintosh SE/30 to being able to share files from a netatalk server? Here's what I have in inventory: > > The ethernet board blinks when plugged into a network. That's as far as I can get. The interface for MacTCP is impenetrable. If you're trying to get MacTCP working so you can connect to your netatalk server, you're already done. It'll never happen. System 6 won't transit AFP over IP. You need to get your netatalk server working correctly with atalk and forget about MacTCP, if AFP is your goal. The only reason to have MacTCP is if you plan to use TCP applications such as NCSA Telnet or Fetch (assuming either even works on System 6). FWIW MacTCP is too old to know about CIDR. You need to configure it according to the old class-A/B/C rules for subnets & host numbering. This is probably why it seems "impenetrable". If you have a /24 subnet (netmask 255.255.255.0), then you have a 24-bit network and an 8-bit host number. This is what would have been a class-C subnet, though a proper, old-school class-C subnet can't have a network number smaller than 192.0.0 or larger than 223.255.255. If your network falls outside this range, you have to select the class your network number falls into, then manually override the number of bits for the host number to match your subnet mask. The leftover bits between the host and network become the "subnet". Any field larger than 8 bits will have to be calculated as a bitfield, i.e. 128.63 == 0x803F == 32831. With any luck you're not on a network that breaks down into the old class-based system with a part that doesn't fit into an 8-bit chunk, since then the math gets a little awful. ok bear. -- until further notice From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 12 03:53:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:53:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Really networking an SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201211120953.EAA06953@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If you have a /24 subnet (netmask 255.255.255.0), then you have a 24-bit net$ Sigh. Compensating manually, > [...], though a proper, old-school class-C subnet can't have a > network number smaller than 192.0.0 or larger than 223.255.255. True but somewhat incomplete. In CIDR terms, class A is 0.0.0.0/1, class B is 128.0.0.0/2, and class C is 192.0.0.0/3. The netmask width (for contiguous subnet masks) is orthogonal to this - the current pernicious abuse of "class C" to mean "/24" is a mistake, and a very annoying one.... There are also class D, 224.0.0.0/4, and class E, 240.0.0.0/4, but practically nobody remembers them any longer, probably at least in part because they saw fairly little use (they were not for normal unicast host addresses - you can find the whole list in RFC1812 2.2.5.1). Come to think of it, if you have class D or E space, it's possible pre-CIDR software will get upset at your trying to use it at all, so if you're trying to use addresses somewhere in the 224.0.0.0-255.255.255.255 range, that could be the problem and it might be worth trying something in an RFC1918 block just to see if it'll be willing to configure that way. > If [...], you have to select the class your network number falls > into, then manually override the number of bits for the host number > to match your subnet mask. [...] > With any luck you're not on a network that breaks down into the old > class-based system with a part that doesn't fit into an 8-bit chunk, Or one with a noncontiguous subnet mask; based on the description of picking what today we'd call the CIDR width, there's may not even be any way to configure such a thing. Fortunately, they were never anything but "very rare"; I know of only one person ever using such a netmask in production. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 12 04:24:51 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:24:51 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <5126B006-EC7B-4E0D-8702-BB05E8B9D022@pocnet.net> Am 09.11.2012 um 23:38 schrieb Christian Kennedy: > *cough* Trinitron *cough* ...also has three guns. Colors (guns) need to be set independently in intensity to mix them to the desired color. Time multiplex is no option. Scanning the screen three times with given clock rates would yield excessive flicker. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 12 04:28:02 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:28:02 +0100 Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> <00f701cdbecd$36afdac0$a40f9040$@com> Message-ID: <31C831A4-7C45-44C0-A2BE-6F5607C4F8C3@pocnet.net> Am 10.11.2012 um 00:45 schrieb Christian Kennedy: > > On 9 Nov 2012, at 2:54 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> We have Sony Triniton monitors here, and I have repaired them, many years >> ago. >> If I recall correctly, they still have 3 guns on the color monitors. > > They do not; they have a single gun with three cathodes What is the definition of "gun" in this context? Only the cathode? Or the cathode with electrodes to accelerate up the electrons to the neccessary speed? :wq! PoC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 12 04:49:17 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 02:49:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: <5126B006-EC7B-4E0D-8702-BB05E8B9D022@pocnet.net> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <4A82D151-7AFE-4758-97B2-3AFCC64A1101@mainecoon.com> <5126B006-EC7B-4E0D-8702-BB05E8B9D022@pocnet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Patrik Schindler wrote: > Am 09.11.2012 um 23:38 schrieb Christian Kennedy: > >> *cough* Trinitron *cough* > > ...also has three guns. Colors (guns) need to be set independently in > intensity to mix them to the desired color. Time multiplex is no option. > Scanning the screen three times with given clock rates would yield > excessive flicker. Last time I checked, Trinitron CRTs had three guns just like all other color CRTs. The key difference is that the guns are in a vertical line instead of a cluster. This gave some advantages in resolution. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pye at mactec.com.au Mon Nov 12 04:55:46 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:55:46 +1000 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6CC31F85-C066-452D-9878-842A10DA90B2@mactec.com.au> On 11/11/2012, at 12:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >> b8d8d5b > > Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! > Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! I would love to get this gear, but moving it from Melbourne to Brisbane (1700 km) would be a mammoth task. Actually moving it anywhere would be a big job. Chris From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 06:34:11 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:34:11 +0000 Subject: Liberator: the untold story of the first British laptop Message-ID: Part One: Taking over the typing pool By Tony Smith ? Get more from this author Posted in Hardware, 12th November 2012 12:01 GMT Feature In 1985, the UK home computer boom was over. Those computer manufacturers who had survived the sales wasteland that was Christmas 1984 quickly began to turn their attention away from the home users they had courted through the first half of the 1980s to the growing and potentially much more lucrative business market. The IBM PC had been launched four years earlier, in 1981. The 5150 and the clones it had inspired at Compaq and other computing firms new and established were winning an increasing share of the market. Some British manufacturers were content to follow the American lead and offer clones of their own. Others, however, believed they could win with systems of their own design. [...] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/12/the_secret_history_of_liberator_the_first_british_laptop_part_one/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 06:56:00 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 07:56:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Really networking an SE/30 In-Reply-To: References: <201211120455.qAC4t9wY30343198@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I have netatalk running on my regular multipurpose headless server as > installed from apt-get. I also have an a2server[1] Virtualbox image running. Stock netatalk from apt-get is likely to have DDP support disabled, and perhaps is new enough not to support it at all. Ivan's netatalk appliance is definitely setup properly to speak DDP over ethernet - no IP configuration required on the client side. > At the very least I want EtherTalk. MacTCP would be nice just to talk ftp, > telnet, or maybe ssh. I'm not terribly interested in running web browsers > (that's where the previous thread derailed). The 'a2server' definitely speaks ethertalk. > I'm sure what I'm doing with netatalk. a2server seems to have its netatalk > settings hidden somewhere nonstandard. I'm not sure if I have the main > server's netatalk configured right. I use a somewhat hacked netatalk package on a Seagate "plug" computer, but I've installed Ivan's appliance and played with it a bit. From what I remember the default configuration is functional out of the box. You may want to drop Ivan a note? He's a very nice guy and will probably have good suggestions for troubleshooting. Steve -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 09:22:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:22:29 -0500 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <50A045E3.805@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> <50A045E3.805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A11435.1000405@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2012 07:42 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > The KS10 FPGA is running well enough to execute (and fail) the > DEC Instruction Set Diagnostics. Each day it runs some more > instructions before halting. Nice work! I'm following this project with interest. Please keep up the good work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From d235j.1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 09:53:22 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:53:22 -0500 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email him. > > Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :( Archive Team backed up nearly all of those sites. You can look up by username at http://ia600403.us.archive.org/30/items/archiveteam-mobileme-index/mobileme-20120817.html . Not sure how best to extract the WARCs though, as warctozip seems to be not working for some reason. --Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 12 10:10:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 08:10:41 -0800 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <50A11F81.8080901@bitsavers.org> On 11/12/12 7:53 AM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: >> David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email him. >> >> Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :( > from Oct 4th David's work has moved to: http://fpgaretrocomputing.org/ From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 12 11:36:54 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:36:54 -0500 Subject: early HP Calculator documentation In-Reply-To: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> References: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> An acquaintance sent me the following, asking if I was interested. I've no knowledge of the HP calculator community but suspect it exists. Are these of any interest to anyone: https://picasaweb.google.com/11463908000 from his email: "There are loads of documents, manuals, and newsletters. Personal Programmer Club (PPC) is the most comprehensive... goes from ~ 1/78 thru 7/86. Has PPC Conference notes and special documents. Also, Fourth Dimension 83 - 85, CHHU Chronicles 10/84 - 2/86, and HP journal 1/83 - 5/86 Loads of HP subsystem manuals. Some chip hardware. Etc., etc,. etc...." If interested, reply off list and I'll provide contact info I've dealt with this individual before and have had no issues with 2 fairly large vintage equipment transactions Steve Shumaker From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Mon Nov 12 06:09:13 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:09:13 +1100 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 12/11/2012, at 12:55 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Huw Davies wrote: > >> >> On 11/11/2012, at 1:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >>>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >>>> b8d8d5b >>> >>> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! >>> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! >> >> Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) >> >> This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... > > Resistance is futile - your storage space will be absorbed. The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to store the 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas?. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From shutchman at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 11:32:17 2012 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:32:17 -0500 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD Message-ID: Rik, I have an HP382 that I would like to resurrect. It has no SCSI drive in it, so if you still have ISO for HP-UX 9.10 available ( is it two CD's ?) , I can get the machine back into service. Regards, Hutch >* -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- *>* Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org ] *>* Namens mls *>* Verzonden: donderdag 10 november 2011 6:30 *>* Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org *>* Onderwerp: Re: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD *>* *>* Rik, *>* *>* Back in 2009, you had posted on this thread that you could make HP-UX 9.10 *(HP >* 9000 series 300) ISO's available, but the thread, basically ended there. *I have >* been looking on and off for this software for some time for an HP 360 that *I >* have. *>* *>* Thanks, *>* Chris * Chris, I uploaded the iso's to several members of this list, if you have a ftp server you can have it. And maybe you don't know bout on the HP-museum site : http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 you can download a lot of software for the HP 9000/300 series -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 11:48:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:48:13 -0500 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <50A1365D.50006@neurotica.com> On 11/12/2012 07:09 AM, Huw Davies wrote: >>>>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >>>>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >>>>> b8d8d5b >>>> >>>> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! >>>> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! >>> >>> Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) >>> >>> This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... >> >> Resistance is futile - your storage space will be absorbed. > > The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to store the 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas?. Cars are generally waterproof...put one outside! ;) YOU MUST GET THIS MACHINE! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Nov 12 12:01:44 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:01:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A1365D.50006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/12/2012 07:09 AM, Huw Davies wrote: > >>>>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co > >>>>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 > >>>>> b8d8d5b > >>>> > >>>> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! > >>>> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! > >>> > >>> Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) > >>> > >>> This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... > >> > >> Resistance is futile - your storage space will be absorbed. > > > > The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to store the 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas?. > > Cars are generally waterproof...put one outside! ;) > > YOU MUST GET THIS MACHINE! You've clearly never owned an Alfa Romeo. - JP From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 12 12:05:34 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:05:34 +0100 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501cdc100$536178b0$fa246a10$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Hutch > Verzonden: maandag 12 november 2012 18:32 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD > > Rik, > > I have an HP382 that I would like to resurrect. It has no SCSI drive in it, so if you > still have ISO for HP-UX 9.10 available ( is it two CD's ?) , I can get the machine > back into service. > > Regards, > Hutch > > >* -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > *>* Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > ] > *>* Namens mls > *>* Verzonden: donderdag 10 november 2011 6:30 > *>* Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > > *>* Onderwerp: Re: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD > *>* > *>* Rik, > *>* > *>* Back in 2009, you had posted on this thread that you could make HP-UX > 9.10 *(HP > >* 9000 series 300) ISO's available, but the thread, basically ended there. > *I have > >* been looking on and off for this software for some time for an HP 360 > >that > *I > >* have. > *>* > *>* Thanks, > *>* Chris > * > Chris, > > I uploaded the iso's to several members of this list, if you have a ftp server you > can have it. > And maybe you don't know bout on the HP-museum site : > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 > you can download a lot of software for the HP 9000/300 series > > -Rik Hutch, I do have them, please contact me off-list. You need two images one basic install 9.00 and the update to 9.10. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 12 12:21:54 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:21:54 +0100 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: References: <50A1365D.50006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000301cdc102$9bc31080$d3493180$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens JP Hindin > Verzonden: maandag 12 november 2012 19:02 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Drool!!! > > > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 11/12/2012 07:09 AM, Huw Davies wrote: > > >>>>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe- > vintage-retro-co > > >>>>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax- > /251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 > > >>>>> b8d8d5b > > >>>> > > >>>> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! > > >>>> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! > > >>> > > >>> Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) > > >>> > > >>> This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... > > >> > > >> Resistance is futile - your storage space will be absorbed. > > > > > > The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to store the > 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas.. > > > > Cars are generally waterproof...put one outside! ;) > > > > YOU MUST GET THIS MACHINE! > > > You've clearly never owned an Alfa Romeo. > > - JP And the process called rust, nothing can rust faster than a Alfa or it must be a Alfa-Sud... -Rik (Cit owner;) From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 12 12:23:23 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:23:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Huw Davies wrote: > On 12/11/2012, at 12:55 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Huw Davies wrote: >>> On 11/11/2012, at 1:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> On 11/10/2012 08:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >>>>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 >>>>> b8d8d5b >>>> >>>> Ohhhhhh my. :-) That is quite a stack of VERY nice hardware! >>>> Somebody in Oz is gonna be VERY happy! >>> >>> Must resist, must resist, must resist :-) >>> >>> This is about 20 minutes away from where I live... >> >> Resistance is futile - your storage space will be absorbed. > > The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to > store the 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas?. Meh. http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/parking-lifts/ From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 12 12:30:20 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:30:20 -0500 Subject: early HP Calculator documentation In-Reply-To: <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> References: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> Message-ID: <50A1403C.5090601@att.net> On 11/12/2012 12:36 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > An acquaintance sent me the following, asking if I was interested. > I've no knowledge of the HP calculator community but suspect it > exists. Are these of any interest to anyone: > > > https://picasaweb.google.com/11463908000 > > from his email: > > "There are loads of documents, manuals, and newsletters. > > Personal Programmer Club (PPC) is the most comprehensive... goes from > ~ 1/78 > thru 7/86. Has PPC Conference notes and special documents. > > Also, Fourth Dimension 83 - 85, CHHU Chronicles 10/84 - 2/86, and HP > journal > 1/83 - 5/86 > > Loads of HP subsystem manuals. > > Some chip hardware. > > Etc., etc,. etc...." > > > If interested, reply off list and I'll provide contact info > > > I've dealt with this individual before and have had no issues with 2 > fairly large vintage equipment transactions > > Steve Shumaker > > > > > > photo link is incomplete - my bad for not testing! this should work better: https://picasaweb.google.com/114639080007220617932/HPCalculators?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNiD2PG2mabqag&feat=directlink Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 12:33:28 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:33:28 -0500 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to >> store the 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas?. > > Meh. > > http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/parking-lifts/ How many 19" racks can you fit on that lift? - or - How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? -ethan From witchy69 at virginmedia.com Mon Nov 12 12:05:29 2012 From: witchy69 at virginmedia.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:05:29 +0000 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A1365D.50006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/2012 17:48, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage-retro-co >>>>>> mputer-not-PDP11-microvax-/251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item >>>>>> 3a7 >>>>>> b8d8d5b Oh man... Sometimes I thank %deity% that I can't put this anywhere... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 12 12:35:47 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:35:47 -0500 Subject: early HP Calculator documentation In-Reply-To: <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> References: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> Message-ID: <50A14183.4050606@att.net> On 11/12/2012 12:36 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > An acquaintance sent me the following, asking if I was interested. > I've no knowledge of the HP calculator community but suspect it > exists. Are these of any interest to anyone: > > > https://picasaweb.google.com/11463908000 > > from his email: > > "There are loads of documents, manuals, and newsletters. > > Personal Programmer Club (PPC) is the most comprehensive... goes from > ~ 1/78 > thru 7/86. Has PPC Conference notes and special documents. > > Also, Fourth Dimension 83 - 85, CHHU Chronicles 10/84 - 2/86, and HP > journal > 1/83 - 5/86 > > Loads of HP subsystem manuals. > > Some chip hardware. > > Etc., etc,. etc...." > > > If interested, reply off list and I'll provide contact info > > > I've dealt with this individual before and have had no issues with 2 > fairly large vintage equipment transactions > > Steve Shumaker > > > > > > picassa link is incomplete; this one should work better (my bad for not testing it ).... https://picasaweb.google.com/114639080007220617932/HPCalculators?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNiD2PG2mabqag&feat=directlink steve From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 12:36:06 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:36:06 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No connection with this listing. Looks like an interesting item. Symbolics 3640 Artificial Intelligence Work Station Complete and Functional http://www.ebay.com/itm/221152106364 End time: Nov 17, 2012 7:03:55 PM From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 12 13:17:15 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:17:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >>> The problem is, it already is. I'd have to get rid of one of my cars to >>> store the 11/750s and my Alfas are just as important as my Alphas?. >> >> Meh. >> >> http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/parking-lifts/ > > How many 19" racks can you fit on that lift? > > - or - > > How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? Depends on the lift? After all, they make lifts large enough to support a touring bus or semi-truck and trailer, so depending on how full the racks are, I guess the answer might be "a lot"? :) That said, if you have racks of Fujitsu Eagles mounted inside a truck, don't try to move the truck with drives spinning. Someone once tried that here and then had to bring in a crane... It might be easier to stack the Alfas though ;) From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 13:23:24 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:23:24 -0500 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A14CAC.1080004@gmail.com> Glen Slick wrote: > No connection with this listing. Looks like an interesting item. > > Symbolics 3640 Artificial Intelligence Work Station Complete and Functional > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221152106364 > > End time: Nov 17, 2012 7:03:55 PM So far I'm the only bidder. I can dream, can't I? Peace... Sridhar From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Nov 12 13:57:08 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:57:08 +0000 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> >> How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? > Depends how rusty the Alfa is! :-) Roger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 14:13:06 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:13:06 -0500 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > >>> How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? >> >> > Depends how rusty the Alfa is! :-) What's the bit density of a spinning rusty Alfa? Better than an RK05? -ethan From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Nov 12 14:13:24 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 09:13:24 +1300 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger 1P video Message-ID: Some of you may know of this item already but some may not, and might be interested. It's a short 10min YouTube video on one of the units in my collection: An OS Challenger 1P http://youtu.be/zrOYkKf5Y5k Terry Stewart (Tez) From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 14:29:12 2012 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:29:12 -0700 Subject: More Shameless classic parts trafficking Message-ID: Hi everybody! More shameless classic parts trafficking. These go live on 11/12/ @ 2pm on epay 251183147655 DEC 11/04, dual sms floppy drives, Vt100 and rt-11 251183206220 DEC tm03 controller unit I'll be putting some apollo stuff up and maybe some other stuff later this week. Of course, mention your a member of the ccmp list and get some freebies thrown in. Cheers tom From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 12 15:43:19 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:43:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: early HP Calculator documentation In-Reply-To: <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> References: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > An acquaintance sent me the following, asking if I was interested. I've no > knowledge of the HP calculator community but suspect it exists. Are these of > any interest to anyone: Go to the forum at http://www.hpmuseum.org/ and ask. That's where much of the interesting stuff about HP calculators seems to be discussed. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 12 15:54:21 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:54:21 -0000 Subject: Differences between KFQSA submodels Message-ID: <001101cdc120$47735f30$d65a1d90$@ntlworld.com> I have come a across someone selling two different KFQSA boards. Is there a significant difference between a KFQSA-SG-RE and a KFQSA-SF-RE? Regards Rob From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 12 16:11:27 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 17:11:27 -0500 Subject: early HP Calculator documentation In-Reply-To: References: <50986CE6.70808@gmail.com> <50A133B6.4020409@att.net> Message-ID: <50A1740F.4070009@att.net> On 11/12/2012 4:43 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > >> An acquaintance sent me the following, asking if I was interested. >> I've no knowledge of the HP calculator community but suspect it >> exists. Are these of any interest to anyone: > > Go to the forum at http://www.hpmuseum.org/ and ask. That's where > much of the interesting stuff about HP calculators seems to be discussed. > thanks. I've passed this on to the person who owns the materials steve From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:08:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:08:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <50A04B04.8050100@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 11, 12 08:04:04 pm Message-ID: > The NeXT printer, if memory serves, connects to the desktop machine > via a DE9 connector. This suggests (at least I think it does) that > there's another board in there that's talking to the DC controller...I > don't think nine pins is enough for the whole "dumb" control interface, > especially if there are high-speed differential signals in the mix > eating up a pair of lines. Agreed. The Canon VDO interfce conenctor (on the CX-VDO and SX-VDO) is a DC37.Qutie a lot of the pins are grounds (return for single-ended signals), but there are stil lqutie a few active pins, FOr 300 dpi, the laser on/of signal can be changing at almost 30MHz IIRC. Sendign that down a non-differtail log cable is asking for troublew There is no data buffer memory in these pritners, you have to keep the data rate up once you start a page. My guess is that you're right. There is some extra electroncis in the NeXT pritner. I can thinkl of at least 2 possibilites. One is that the 2 differntial signasl (laser on/off and beam detcat) are send differentially over 4 of the pins onthe DE9, there's then some kind of lower speed interfce to hadnle comamnds, status, startign a page, etc on the remainign pisn. The other possibility is that tere is a data buffer in thepritner whic his loaded form the host and then sends data to the laser controller at the full rate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:51:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:51:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Networking a Macintosh SE/30 In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Nov 12, 12 02:49:17 am Message-ID: > Last time I checked, Trinitron CRTs had three guns just like all other > color CRTs. The key difference is that the guns are in a vertical line > instead of a cluster. This gave some advantages in resolution. A PIL tube has 3 separate electron guns in a _horizontal_ line in the neck. A Trinitron tube IIRC has 3 cathodes in a horixotnal line and then common cotnrol and accelerating electrodes. Whether that's 1 gun or 3 is up to you ;-) Actually, an in-line gun CRT produces a slightly inferior picture to a proeprly set up delta gun CRT. But the big advantage is that confergrance and purity are affected by only the vertical component of the earth's magneitc field, not the horixotnal component. The former is much the saev over large area, the latter chagnes if you turn the TV or monitor round. So a detal gun CRT relaly has to be set up in the position it is to be used, making poratble TVs lamost impossible nad meaning that a 'fixed' TV or monitor needs a dozen or more presets twaeked when you instlal it, whereas an in-lice CRT can be set up at the factory and won't need adjustments at installation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:54:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:54:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Liberator: the untold story of the first British laptop In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Nov 12, 12 12:34:11 pm Message-ID: > > Part One: Taking over the typing pool > > By Tony Smith ? Get more from this author > > Posted in Hardware, 12th November 2012 12:01 GMT > > Feature In 1985, the UK home computer boom was over. Those computer > manufacturers who had survived the sales wasteland that was Christmas > 1984 quickly began to turn their attention away from the home users > they had courted through the first half of the 1980s to the growing > and potentially much more lucrative business market. > > The IBM PC had been launched four years earlier, in 1981. The 5150 and > the clones it had inspired at Compaq and other computing firms new and > established were winning an increasing share of the market. Some > British manufacturers were content to follow the American lead and > offer clones of their own. Others, however, believed they could win > with systems of their own design. > [...] > If that's the Liberator I think it is, I would not call it a laptop computer. Yes, it was microprocessor controlled, and yes, there was something very liek CP/M in the ROM. But it was not user-programamble. It ran a dedicatedtext editor thing. There was an optional terminal emulator ROM module, I ahve neve rseen any other software for it. And like most UK computers of the time, the keyboard is horrible! -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 12 17:04:21 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:04:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 kickstarter success Message-ID: I just thought you'd all be interested to hear that my P112 Kickstarter project has been successfully funded. Now for the formalities of getting the money transferred to me and I can start buying parts. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 17:19:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:19:56 -0500 Subject: P112 kickstarter success In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A1841C.7080808@neurotica.com> On 11/12/2012 06:04 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I just thought you'd all be interested to hear that my P112 Kickstarter > project has been successfully funded. Now for the formalities of > getting the money transferred to me and I can start buying parts. Congratulations! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 17:23:19 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:23:19 -0700 Subject: P112 kickstarter success In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A184E7.9080808@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/12/2012 4:04 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just thought you'd all be interested to hear that my P112 Kickstarter > project has been successfully funded. Now for the formalities of > getting the money transferred to me and I can start buying parts. That is good news. Was I the only one, who could not get the kickstarter page to create a log in for me, Sunday. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 12 17:29:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 kickstarter success In-Reply-To: <50A184E7.9080808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A184E7.9080808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, ben wrote: > On 11/12/2012 4:04 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just thought you'd all be interested to hear that my P112 Kickstarter >> project has been successfully funded. Now for the formalities of >> getting the money transferred to me and I can start buying parts. > > That is good news. > Was I the only one, who could not get the kickstarter page > to create a log in for me, Sunday. I'll have some left over. Don't worry too much. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Nov 12 17:32:20 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:32:20 +0000 Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A18704.4040901@mac.com> On 11/11/2012 21:57, Tony Duell wrote: Is ther eay reason in principle why a photocopier has to use a differnt fussing temperature to a laser printer. If so, what is this reason? -tony I dont think it matters whether its a copier or printer the fact is the faster machines dont use monocomponent. It will be a cost issue, mono toner costs more to make, the faster m/c's use more toner! But to answer your question about temperature, i can guess it that as the speed goes up you have a shorter contact time in the fuser to fuse the toner so the toner in the high speed printer/copiers have a lower melting point than the slower ones. I might be completely wrong tho.. ;) Roger From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 17:33:32 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:33:32 -0500 Subject: P112 kickstarter success In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2012, at 6:04 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just thought you'd all be interested to hear that my P112 Kickstarter project has been successfully funded. Now for the formalities of getting the money transferred to me and I can start buying parts. That's great! I was worried it wouldn't be for a little bit. I only wish I could have contributed and gotten a board; hopefully, if you do it again in the future, I'll actually have some money lying around. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 19:24:08 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:24:08 -0600 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> Message-ID: <50A1A138.3050603@gmail.com> On 11/12/2012 01:57 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > >>> How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? >> > Depends how rusty the Alfa is! :-) They were mostly holes even when they left the factory, weren't they? From tingox at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 15:38:48 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:38:48 +0100 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, now it is less than two hours (83 minutes as I write this), and the project is 491 dollars short of funding, Or about is five (5) backers of 100 dollars each, or three (3) backers at 170 dollars each. So, any backers thinking of upping their pledge? (Yes, that is my "plan b" in case anyone wonders) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From rrissell at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 19:56:03 2012 From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:56:03 -0500 Subject: Mac Stuff including HyperDrive Install Message-ID: Hi all, I'm Robyn and I'm a computer pack-rat... "Hi Robyn!" I'm doing some cleanup at the behest of the wife and have some vintage gear to get to a new home. Anything is available for pickup or for the price of shipping. (Pickup is preferred as vintage rotating media does not like un-parked shipping) 1. Hyperdrive 2.0 install (used - condition unknown - SEEMS to be all there with drive and install binder, driver for Mac available online) 2. Powerbook 160 installed in a Powerbook 140 case (greyscale, operational, Lead-Acid batteries in condition you'd expect). (MAY be able to find the original MB for PowerBook 140, was a display cable issue) 3. Mac HD-20 external HD for Mac Plus (operational with installed system) 4. Apple External SCSI CD drive (the big long one, includes HD-30 cable and terminators) 5. Copy of MacIntosh 68000 development system with disks 6. Copy of MacIntosh, Lost Treasures of Infocom 7. Printed copy of MacIntosh User's Guide + HyperCard Manual 8. Mac SCSI IOMEGA ZIP drive (with P/S and 3 new Mac Formatted ZIP disks) 9. Mac 800K external drive 10. Misc Mac Plus mice, keyboard, microphone and Phone-Net dongles 11. Floppies and other Misc as I find them. Robyn rrissell at gmail.com Lake Orion, MI From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 12 22:57:56 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:57:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Ok, now it is less than two hours (83 minutes as I write this), and > the project is 491 dollars short of funding, > Or about is five (5) backers of 100 dollars each, or three (3) backers > at 170 dollars each. > > So, any backers thinking of upping their pledge? > (Yes, that is my "plan b" in case anyone wonders) Something must be weird with the list because your message just now rolled in and the funding process ended six hours ago with success. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 01:38:41 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:38:41 +0000 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A1A138.3050603@gmail.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> <50A1A138.3050603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A1F901.1070605@gmail.com> On 13/11/2012 01:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/12/2012 01:57 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: >> >>>> How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? >>> >> Depends how rusty the Alfa is! :-) > > They were mostly holes even when they left the factory, weren't they? > When I worked in a software house, our resident "Car Geek" spent ages looking for a "good" alpha. Sadly we drive on the left in the UK so there is a large hole in the left hand side front foot well where the steering column and foot controls are designed to go. They move the controls to the right and put a plate over it to keep the water out....... but this still filled with water. The cars owner could never decide if it was coming in through gaps round the edge of the plate, or because the Sun Roof leaked and the water flowed down into his foot well...... Debugging this was way harder than fixing any software issue I have ever met... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum p.s. At this point will is it time for the K&R car joke? From sales at elecplus.com Tue Nov 13 07:31:03 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:31:03 -0600 Subject: old tv's and CRT's In-Reply-To: <509DA298.8030607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20121108152845.Q69667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 12 03:30:15 pm <00d301cdbec1$bcf99050$36ecb0f0$@com> <509D8F23.8070707@sydex.com> <509DA298.8030607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001901cdc1a3$20d34880$6279d980$@com> I have 200+ schematics for OLD TVs, radios, stereos, VCRs, etc. Mostly Sam's, some originals from the mfr. Bound 30+ per 3-ring binder for the most part. Any takers? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: old tv's and CRT's On 11/9/2012 4:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At any rate, between 1950 and 1953, the official color television > standard in the USA was the CBS field-sequential system, which, > compared with the RCA system of the same time was quite good (at least > for the time)--a mechanical 3-color filter was spun in front of the > CRT, synchronized to a similar filter at the camera. > > It wasn't until 1953 that RCA had improved its system well enough for > NTSC color to become the official standard. > > A few CBS System receivers still exist. Lots of vintage TV's still can be found. It is getting working color CRT's that are the problem from what I read on the net. Now might be the last time to find CRT's for vintage computer equipment. > --Chuck Has the color on modern display devices matched the color purity of the early TV's yet? Ben. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5889 - Release Date: 11/11/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5889 - Release Date: 11/11/12 From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Nov 13 06:43:03 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:43:03 +1100 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> Message-ID: <40F089B1-9A84-4981-9708-38BB6021B0C9@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 13/11/2012, at 6:57 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > >>> How many Fuji Eagles does it take to outweigh an Alfa? >> > Depends how rusty the Alfa is! :-) Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't a rusty Alfa weigh more (assuming you still have all the rust)? A completely off topic comment, but my Alfa (1985 GTV6) has very little rust but I suspect both Alfasuds I've owned went to the rust gods many years ago - cheap recycled Russian steel IIRC. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Nov 13 09:20:37 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:20:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon In-Reply-To: References: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1352820037.38139.YahooMailNeo@web133118.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello there, indeed the scanning and sorting took quite some time, but I think that it was really worth it. It's rare to obtain such a vast documentation set, so better scan it, if you have the possibilities as a matter of artefact rescue for the future of collectors and museums. The scans kindly put online by Al are under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/system80 And there's already quite some documentation about OS/3 which came with the System-80 computer. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Nigel Williams An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: 23:42 Sonntag, 11.November 2012 Betreff: Re: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon wonderful news Pierre! good work on what sounds to be a Herculean scanning project. I have half of a Unisys System 80/7E (it is actually a Unisys A-series A4 with a different microcode load to support the System 80 ISA). I'm hoping to get the remainder of the system sometime in the next year, however aside from a brochure I have zero documentation for the system and have found very little about OS3 itself. I will be glad to make use of the PDFs once they are available (thank you for submitting them to bitsavers) and would like to see the printed material go to a formal organisation for long term preservation. However if no one steps up then I can be a custodian-of-last-resort rather than seeing the material discarded. cheers, nigel. www.retroComputingTasmania.com On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > I just wanted to make sure the content is scanned and thus saved and as I > don't have the hardware and therefore no use for it, I'd like to give the > documentation away to somebody who is interested in that. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 13 12:29:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 10:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <50A1F901.1070605@gmail.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> <509F0E1F.9030803@neurotica.com> <3BA9BF52-5278-4E14-8F61-F046D95908E9@kerberos.davies.net.au> <55B6CC1C-4891-47D7-B3E7-1ACCB946CC62@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50A15494.3060001@mac.com> <50A1A138.3050603@gmail.com> <50A1F901.1070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121113102808.N28780@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Nov 2012, Dave Wade wrote: > When I worked in a software house, our resident "Car Geek" spent ages > looking for a "good" alpha. Sadly we drive on the left in the UK so > . . . > The cars owner could never decide if it was coming in through gaps Were they really the first to develop anhydrous rust? From francois.dion at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 13:29:36 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:29:36 -0500 Subject: 4 bit cpu with 74xx Message-ID: Someone built a 4 bit cpu using 74xx series chips: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/11/01/7400-competition-entry-fourbit-4-bit-homebrew-cpu/ Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From francois.dion at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 13:36:34 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:36:34 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 111, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Tom publix > I'll be putting some apollo stuff up and maybe some other stuff later this > week. Of course, mention your a member of the ccmp list and get some > freebies thrown in. I posted a few weeks back: I'm looking for a DN1000, or similar era (pre HP). Do you have anything like that? Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 15:05:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 21:05:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: P112 question - what can you run that uses 1MB of RAM? In-Reply-To: <50A18704.4040901@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 12, 12 11:32:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 11/11/2012 21:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is ther eay reason in principle why a photocopier has to use a different > fussing temperature to a laser printer. If so, what is this reason? > > -tony > > I dont think it matters whether its a copier or printer the fact is > the faster machines dont use monocomponent. It will be a cost issue, > mono toner costs more to make, the faster m/c's use more toner! > But to answer your question about temperature, i can guess it that as > the speed goes up you have a shorter contact time in the fuser to fuse > the toner so the toner in the high speed printer/copiers have a lower > melting point than the slower ones. > I might be completely wrong tho.. ;) I think your are consideirng the wrong sort of machines. I am thinking about the small desktop copiers that do a few copies per minute and which don't automatic feeders, etc. The Canon whicb started this discussion takes a toper cartridge much like the one used i nteh CX engien -- but it's not compatible. The fuser lamp is much the same ((A freid nof mine haa/had such a copier, and he fixed it using a CX lamp). I do not doubb tha t larg/fast copiers use differnt toners. But why is the toner for a msall disketop machine different from that in a laserprinter. How is it really different? -tony From bdamer at digitalspace.com Wed Nov 14 11:57:13 2012 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:57:13 -0800 Subject: Ton of IMSAI stuff in New Mexico... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear CC folk, The DigiBarn received this note from someone who is trying to handle the proper dispensation of a ton of IMSAI stuff located in Albuquerque NM (not Ohio). Read on below and feel free to get directly in touch with him... ### I am in the process of clearing the estate of Gary W. Harris who opened the first computer store in Columbus, OH in about 1975. He was an IMSAI dealer. I have IMSAI equipment, including an 8080, many S-100 boards, and manuals for boards and for IMSAI equipment. Still going through stuff. There is so much stuff, and I don't want to go the EBay route with all the posting, packaging and sending. Can you advise on the disposal of this material in a way that will be to the mutual advantage of the recipient and Gary's estate. Contact: davharr at q.com ### From clemfm at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 04:14:32 2012 From: clemfm at gmail.com (Clem Maloney) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:14:32 +1100 Subject: Unusual PC hardware and EPROMS for sale Message-ID: Hi Jim, I've seen your 386 card on ebay and whilst looking for drivers came across your post here: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-October/137378.html I'd take both the 386 and 68020 cards, however drivers are an issue as I can't seem to locate them on the web or newsgroups etc. Any luck finding them at your end? Regards Clem From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Nov 14 04:39:40 2012 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:39:40 +0100 Subject: Tracometer and BAC levels (was: Re: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :() Message-ID: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> On Nov 11, 2012, at 1:25 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> The testing on that device appear to have be brutal unless I am >> reading wrong. They made the subject test it at 1.2% BAC. I wonder >> how many died. Wouldn't they all ? >> >> http://pro.sagepub.com/content/31/7/751 > (...) isn't > greater than .50% generally at high risk for alcohol poisoning? > > - Dave Yes, .5% is considered "usually lethal" and probably even attainable only for the most extremely alcohol-tolerant persons (anybody else is bound to either have to go puke or pass out long before that) and/or by means of specialized consumption techniques (co-consumption of mar-jah-wana is said to suppress puking). > Um, yeah. At first I thought it was a typo, but they have similar > concentrations elsewhere and give the correct mg/L, so... Nope, it *is* methinks a typo. They're mixing up percents (%) (which is the usual parameter given for ABV in alcoholic beverages) and promille (o/oo) which is the usual unit of measurement for BAC, at least in Germany. 1 Percent is "one part of a hundred" whereas 1 Promille is "one part of a thousand", so 10 Promille make 1 Percent. The given mg/l concentration supports that (they're simplifying insofar that they calculate with a density of 1 g/ml for the blood sample), as 1200 mg/l or 1.2g/l or(about) 1.2g / 1000g is 1.2 *thousandth* (=Promille) or 0.12 % BAC (and not 1.2 % as given in the text), which makes a lot more sense for the average intoxicated person. Just my 2 o/oo... Yours sincerely, Arno Kletzander From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 10:19:18 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:19:18 -0200 Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> Message-ID: ?k, this is not classic hardware, but I use it to scan magazines, schematics and manuals of classic brazilian hardware, and I know no place to ask for help, so some forgiveness can be used :o) I have a nice and fast HP8350 scanner. It has an ADF that do wonders, but got broke. Searching the net, no service manual and seems that LOTS of people has exactely the **SAME** problem - ADF stops working at all, scanner does not start up with ADF connected. If you disconnect the ADF, scanner starts and you can use it without ADF. So, I ask to you, my dear friends :o) - Anyone know this problem, and may help? I got no conclusive results on my search. No one seems to have even tried to repair it at home. - Does anyone has a spare top cover for the ADF-less model scanner? I can take out the ADF and use it as a common scanner with this cover. Of course I can use it using the ADF as cover, but it makes scanning harder. Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 10:25:25 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:25:25 -0200 Subject: old tv's and CRT's References: <02cd01cdbf6f$45eff040$d1cfd0c0$@liftoff.at> <509EA5C9.4080202@sydex.com> Message-ID: > But even today with DTV, if I walk into a big-box store and look at the > "wall of TVs" offered for sale, the color differences between models is > quite startling. One would assume that such things as color rendition > would be standardized today, but it seems not to be the case. Some time ago you could go to Plasma and be happy...but now seems that the newer LCD/LED/whatever/3D panels are rising up in color rendition. I like it :o) But still prefers my trusty old Panasonic Viera 42" (plasma) And classic computers on plasma TV gets beautiful :D I love to play Nemesis I on my MSX, connected thru RGB on the plasma :oD From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 10:37:01 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:37:01 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> On 11/12/2012 10:36 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > No connection with this listing. Looks like an interesting item. > > Symbolics 3640 Artificial Intelligence Work Station Complete and Functional > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221152106364 > > End time: Nov 17, 2012 7:03:55 PM Anyone know what happened to this thing ? Someone must have made an offer he couldn't refuse. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 14 10:46:31 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:46:31 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> On Nov 14, 2012, at 8:37 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/12/2012 10:36 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >> No connection with this listing. Looks like an interesting item. >> >> Symbolics 3640 Artificial Intelligence Work Station Complete and Functional >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221152106364 >> >> End time: Nov 17, 2012 7:03:55 PM > > Anyone know what happened to this thing ? Someone must have made an offer he couldn't refuse. I've asked him what happened (haven't heard anything yet). I was high bidder at the time it was yanked. :-( TTFN - Guy From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 14 11:11:37 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:11:37 -0600 Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner In-Reply-To: References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> Message-ID: <003301cdc28b$1b314970$5193dc50$@com> Does this help you any? http://h20584.www2.hp.com/hpgt/guides/select?lang=en&cc=US&prodSeriesId=1118290 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner ?k, this is not classic hardware, but I use it to scan magazines, schematics and manuals of classic brazilian hardware, and I know no place to ask for help, so some forgiveness can be used :o) I have a nice and fast HP8350 scanner. It has an ADF that do wonders, but got broke. Searching the net, no service manual and seems that LOTS of people has exactely the **SAME** problem - ADF stops working at all, scanner does not start up with ADF connected. If you disconnect the ADF, scanner starts and you can use it without ADF. So, I ask to you, my dear friends :o) - Anyone know this problem, and may help? I got no conclusive results on my search. No one seems to have even tried to repair it at home. - Does anyone has a spare top cover for the ADF-less model scanner? I can take out the ADF and use it as a common scanner with this cover. Of course I can use it using the ADF as cover, but it makes scanning harder. Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 14 11:21:10 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:21:10 -0600 Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner In-Reply-To: References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> Message-ID: <003701cdc28c$70f1fed0$52d5fc70$@com> The ADF feeder can still be ordered from HP, pn L1966-69005 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner ?k, this is not classic hardware, but I use it to scan magazines, schematics and manuals of classic brazilian hardware, and I know no place to ask for help, so some forgiveness can be used :o) I have a nice and fast HP8350 scanner. It has an ADF that do wonders, but got broke. Searching the net, no service manual and seems that LOTS of people has exactely the **SAME** problem - ADF stops working at all, scanner does not start up with ADF connected. If you disconnect the ADF, scanner starts and you can use it without ADF. So, I ask to you, my dear friends :o) - Anyone know this problem, and may help? I got no conclusive results on my search. No one seems to have even tried to repair it at home. - Does anyone has a spare top cover for the ADF-less model scanner? I can take out the ADF and use it as a common scanner with this cover. Of course I can use it using the ADF as cover, but it makes scanning harder. Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 11:30:22 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:30:22 -0200 Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> <003301cdc28b$1b314970$5193dc50$@com> Message-ID: > Does this help you any? > http://h20584.www2.hp.com/hpgt/guides/select?lang=en&cc=US&prodSeriesId=1118290 Thanks Cindy, but unfortunately not. The problem seems to be a hardware failure on the ADF module :( From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 11:32:08 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:32:08 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> On 11/14/2012 8:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I've asked him what happened (haven't heard anything yet). I was high > bidder at the time it was yanked. :-( TTFN - Guy That's no fun. With only 4 feedback anyway he probably doesn't care at all about a bad mark on that account. You probably wont hear back from him. I wasn't going to bid but, I was curious what it would go for. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 14 11:44:21 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:44:21 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:32 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/14/2012 8:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I've asked him what happened (haven't heard anything yet). I was high bidder at the time it was yanked. :-( TTFN - Guy > > That's no fun. With only 4 feedback anyway he probably doesn't care at all about a bad mark on that account. You probably wont hear back from him. I wasn't going to bid but, I was curious what it would go for. Yea, the real bummer is that he's just a few miles from me so I could do local pickup. TTFN - Guy From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 11:51:06 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:51:06 -0200 Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> <003701cdc28c$70f1fed0$52d5fc70$@com> Message-ID: Of course, but at a huge price, not counting shipping to Brazil :oP I'm trying to find a "DIY" solution :D --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner > The ADF feeder can still be ordered from HP, pn L1966-69005 > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:19 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner > > > ?k, this is not classic hardware, but I use it to scan magazines, > schematics and manuals of classic brazilian hardware, and I know no place > to ask for help, so some forgiveness can be used :o) > > I have a nice and fast HP8350 scanner. It has an ADF that do wonders, > but got broke. Searching the net, no service manual and seems that LOTS of > people has exactely the **SAME** problem - ADF stops working at all, > scanner does not start up with ADF connected. If you disconnect the ADF, > scanner starts and you can use it without ADF. > > So, I ask to you, my dear friends :o) > > - Anyone know this problem, and may help? I got no conclusive results > on my search. No one seems to have even tried to repair it at home. > > - Does anyone has a spare top cover for the ADF-less model scanner? I > can take out the ADF and use it as a common scanner with this cover. Of > course I can use it using the ADF as cover, but it makes scanning harder. > > Thanks > Alexandre Souza > > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 14 12:01:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:01:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tracometer and BAC levels (was: Re: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :() In-Reply-To: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20121114095006.M58727@shell.lmi.net> > > (...) isn't > > greater than .50% generally at high risk for alcohol poisoning? On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Yes, .5% is considered "usually lethal" and probably even attainable > only for the most extremely alcohol-tolerant persons (anybody else is > bound to either have to go puke or pass out long before that) and/or by > means of specialized consumption techniques (co-consumption of > mar-jah-wana is said to suppress puking). Since there are some who are hypersensitive, some who are almost immune, and the curve is NOT a smooth bell curve, toxicity is generally measured in "LD50". That is the dosage at which HALF of the subjects die. (Note that because of the skews of the curve, that is the MEDIAN, NOT THE MEAN) MOST LD50 numbers are expressed as the LD50 for rats, since killing half of your human subjects, EVEN if they're grad students!, is frowned upon. An extremely preachy anti-alcohol site at University of Missouri - St. Louis claims that a BAC of .4 (.004, or 0.4%)is the LD50 they also state that BAC/BAL is "number of grams per 100ml", and that "100mg/100ml is .10%BAL" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 14 12:13:10 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tracometer and BAC levels (was: Re: mystry cards make offer or they going in trash :() In-Reply-To: <20121114095006.M58727@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Nov 14, 12 10:01:44 am" Message-ID: <201211141813.qAEIDAwY30015494@floodgap.com> > Since there are some who are hypersensitive, some who are almost immune, > and the curve is NOT a smooth bell curve, toxicity is generally measured > in "LD50". That is the dosage at which HALF of the subjects die. (Note > that because of the skews of the curve, that is the MEDIAN, NOT THE MEAN) > MOST LD50 numbers are expressed as the LD50 for rats, since killing half > of your human subjects, EVEN if they're grad students!, is frowned upon. However, the IRB did let me kill several undergraduates once. Also, it is acceptable to maim medical students, as long as they are permitted to graduate. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you live in a country run by committee, be on the committee. -- G. Summer From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 14 12:14:27 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:14:27 -0600 Subject: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner In-Reply-To: References: <20121114103940.89440@gmx.net> <003301cdc28b$1b314970$5193dc50$@com> Message-ID: <004401cdc293$e2926b40$a7b741c0$@com> Apparently a firmware update has caused the ADF to quit for a lot of people. http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Scanning-Faxing-and-Copying/Scanjet-8350-ADF-stopped-working-with-firmware-update/td-p/152216 Do you have the firmware from before it was updated? http://www.fixya.com/support/t11678298-having_hp_scanjet_8350_scanner_adf_its Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:30 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [OT but relative]: Help with HP 8350 Scanner > Does this help you any? > http://h20584.www2.hp.com/hpgt/guides/select?lang=en&cc=US&prodSeriesI > d=1118290 Thanks Cindy, but unfortunately not. The problem seems to be a hardware failure on the ADF module :( ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 12:34:16 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:34:16 -0500 Subject: Ton of IMSAI stuff in New Mexico... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave?: There are many people on this mailing list who collect that sort of equipment. A great first step might be to photo inventory it to a picasa or facebook album so that many people can take a look. My guess is that you will get several offers, and possibly a recommendation or two about what are the most valuable pieces. If your fiduciary responsibility is to the estate, some things probably should be auctioned on EBay. -tony > The DigiBarn received this note from someone who is trying to handle the > proper dispensation of a ton of IMSAI stuff located in Albuquerque NM (not > Ohio). Read on below and feel free to get directly in touch with him... > > ### > I am in the process of clearing the estate of Gary W. Harris who opened > the first computer store in Columbus, OH in about 1975. > He was an IMSAI dealer. I have IMSAI equipment, including an 8080, many > S-100 boards, and manuals for boards and for IMSAI equipment. Still going > through stuff. > There is so much stuff, and I don't want to go the EBay route with all the > posting, packaging and sending. > Can you advise on the disposal of this material in a way that will be to > the mutual advantage of the recipient and Gary's estate. > > Contact: davharr at q.com > ### > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 14 12:41:27 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:41:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:32 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 11/14/2012 8:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >>> I've asked him what happened (haven't heard anything yet). I was high >>> bidder at the time it was yanked. :-( TTFN - Guy >> >> That's no fun. With only 4 feedback anyway he probably doesn't care at >> all about a bad mark on that account. You probably wont hear back from >> him. I wasn't going to bid but, I was curious what it would go for. > > Yea, the real bummer is that he's just a few miles from me so I could do > local pickup. On the plus side, with eBay's latest policy changes, the seller still had to pay eBay's final value fee when he canceled the bids and ended the listing early. It probably isn't the same machine, but there was an identical model in Washington State that I tried to buy many years ago, but the owner backed out because shipping it via freight was "just too much trouble". Oh well. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Nov 14 12:44:46 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:44:46 +0000 Subject: Ton of IMSAI stuff in New Mexico... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd love to have some. I'd find a way to pay the shipping... and for the gear if it's cheap enough. I almost got my hands on one once, but the stuff got THROWN AWAY before my friend could get hold of it. Thrown away. A tragedy. On 14 November 2012 18:34, Tony Aiuto wrote: > Dave?: > > There are many people on this mailing list who collect that sort of > equipment. A great first step might be to photo inventory it to a picasa or > facebook album so that many people can take a look. My guess is that you > will get several offers, and possibly a recommendation or two about what > are the most valuable pieces. If your fiduciary responsibility is to the > estate, some things probably should be auctioned on EBay. > > -tony > > >> The DigiBarn received this note from someone who is trying to handle the >> proper dispensation of a ton of IMSAI stuff located in Albuquerque NM (not >> Ohio). Read on below and feel free to get directly in touch with him... >> >> ### >> I am in the process of clearing the estate of Gary W. Harris who opened >> the first computer store in Columbus, OH in about 1975. >> He was an IMSAI dealer. I have IMSAI equipment, including an 8080, many >> S-100 boards, and manuals for boards and for IMSAI equipment. Still going >> through stuff. >> There is so much stuff, and I don't want to go the EBay route with all the >> posting, packaging and sending. >> Can you advise on the disposal of this material in a way that will be to >> the mutual advantage of the recipient and Gary's estate. >> >> Contact: davharr at q.com >> ### >> -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Nov 14 13:33:06 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:33:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1352921586.64611.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> >It probably isn't the same machine, but there was an identical model in Washington State that I tried to buy many years ago, but the owner backed out because shipping it via freight was "just too much >trouble". Oh well. Did he at least keep the machine or did it go in other good hands? The worst is when people then just dump the system at the nearest yard after such an experience for the sake of too much time put into and too much "troube"... Pierre From ed.spittles at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 14:04:58 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 20:04:58 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer Message-ID: On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the school library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my recollection is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off with some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even have starte with W. Any info about your school or the specific teacher might help track it down. Or maybe someone here can remember it? Cheers Ed From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 14:36:16 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 20:36:16 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Ed Spittles wrote: > On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > >> This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete >> transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on >> the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag >> board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with >> small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone >> remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. > > Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the school > library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my recollection > is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off with > some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it > worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the > recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, > Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even have > starte with W. How about the magazine wireless World http://www.fano.co.uk/history/WWcomp.html I do believe I have the set of articles here somewhere Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 14 15:03:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:03:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: from "Ed Spittles" at Nov 14, 12 08:04:58 pm Message-ID: > > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. > > Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the school > library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my recollection > is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off with > some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it > worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the > recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, > Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even have > starte with W. A book which it isn't, but which is till intersting is 'We built our own computers'. IIRC, this describes switch and relay logic machins (no transistors, the odd diode, though) built by some school students in Exeter (England) in the 1960s. I remember the painted metal drum with contacts as the control sequencer. I must dig my copy out and re-read it.. -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 15:28:29 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:28:29 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete >> > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on >> > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag >> > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with >> > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone >> > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. >> >> Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the school >> library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my recollection >> is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off with >> some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it >> worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the >> recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, >> Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even have >> starte with W. > > A book which it isn't, but which is till intersting is 'We built our own > computers'. IIRC, this describes switch and relay logic machins (no er nonono > transistors, the odd diode, though) built by some school students in > Exeter (England) in the 1960s. I remember the painted metal drum with > contacts as the control sequencer. > > I must dig my copy out and re-read it.. You better then you will see transistors starts page 368 August Wireless world Dave Caroline From cube1 at charter.net Wed Nov 14 16:36:44 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:36:44 -0600 Subject: Unusual PC hardware and EPROMS for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A41CFC.5050806@charter.net> I have some interest in the PC Elevator card, and may have some Apollo software for it lying around on floppy disk, and might also have a manual. (When I worked at Wisconsin DOT we had some of these in DN3000 and DN3500 machines). On 10/5/2012 6:15 PM, jim davis wrote: > I'm cleaning up and have items that may interest some list members. > > Central point software transcopy deluxe board - $30.00 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=142538&img=copy2.jpg > 100+ AM27C2048 16X128K EPROM 40 pin package NOS - $30/OBO > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=147940&img=eproms.jpg > ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $50 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg > ISA Definicon 68020 coprocessor - $50 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148129&img=68020-large.jpg > > + actual shipping - Paypal friends option. > > The 2 co-processors were purchased for work in the early 90's. > No software located yet. > Current condition unknown, stored in anti-static bag since 1992. > > Thanks, > Jim. > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 17:09:35 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:09:35 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Ed Spittles wrote: >> On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: >> >>> This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete >>> transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on >>> the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag >>> board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with >>> small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone >>> remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. >> >> Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the school >> library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my recollection >> is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off with >> some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it >> worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the >> recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, >> Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even have >> starte with W. > > How about the magazine wireless World > > http://www.fano.co.uk/history/WWcomp.html > > I do believe I have the set of articles here somewhere Now found and scanned but due to the state of the paper are scanned in greyscale The article above refers to it continuing into 1968 but the stuff I have found ends in December 1967 pm me for url as the files are large and cannot handle a download swarm. Dave Caroline From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 14 19:52:02 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:52:02 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <1352921586.64611.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> <1352921586.64611.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6CAC104A-C8AD-4AB6-918E-C106F72D5AD3@shiresoft.com> On Nov 14, 2012, at 11:33 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > > >> It probably isn't the same machine, but there was an identical model in Washington State that I tried to buy many years ago, but the owner backed out because shipping it via freight was "just too much >trouble". Oh well. > > Did he at least keep the machine or did it go in other good hands? The worst is when people then just dump the system at the nearest yard after such an experience for the sake of too much time put into and too much "troube"? I received a reply to my message to the seller. Basically they're having problems with PayPal and want to get that fixed before doing anything else. They said that they would be re-listing it after the holidays. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 14 20:08:35 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:08:35 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <6CAC104A-C8AD-4AB6-918E-C106F72D5AD3@shiresoft.com> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> <1352921586.64611.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <6CAC104A-C8AD-4AB6-918E-C106F72D5AD3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50A44EA3.5040701@bitsavers.org> On 11/14/12 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 11:33 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > >> >> >>> It probably isn't the same machine, but there was an identical model in Washington State that I tried to buy many years ago, but the owner backed out because shipping it via freight was "just too much>trouble". Oh well. >> >> Did he at least keep the machine or did it go in other good hands? The worst is when people then just dump the system at the nearest yard after such an experience for the sake of too much time put into and too much "troube"? > > I received a reply to my message to the seller. Basically they're having problems with PayPal and want to get that fixed before doing anything else. you may want to ask what else they have. it appears to be the same people that had the 1108s From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 20:41:00 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:41:00 -0500 Subject: Ton of IMSAI stuff in New Mexico... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Bruce Damer wrote: > The DigiBarn received this note from someone who is trying to handle the > proper dispensation of a ton of IMSAI stuff located in Albuquerque NM (not > Ohio). Bummer on the location (I'm in Columbus). >> I am in the process of clearing the estate of Gary W. Harris who opened the >> first computer store in Columbus, OH in about 1975. I had to have met him. Does anyone know what the name of his store might be or where it was located? I was just a kid, but I was all over this stuff back in the day even if I couldn't afford it. I won't be able to help with anything in New Mexico, but since it sounds like this contact person prefers pickup over shipping, if anyone gets a pile of items and would facilitate spreading things around, I might be interested in picking up an item or two. I was never hugely into S-100, but I have a little bit of stuff that could use some contemporary boards. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 14 22:49:28 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:49:28 -0600 Subject: IBM PC replica Message-ID: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Is this old news: http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 22:56:02 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:56:02 -0600 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: what? really interesting On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is this old news: > > http://www.mtmscientific.com/**pc-retro.html > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 00:25:48 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 01:25:48 -0500 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is this old news: > > http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html First I've seen it. The board certainly looks like a PC 5150 clone. I wonder what they found that differed from the published schematics. -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 00:47:17 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:47:17 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is this old news: > > http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html > Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 01:01:54 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 02:01:54 -0500 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:47 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> Is this old news: >> >> http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >> > > Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for > $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM > PC go for less than $100 all the time. Less mouse poop? -ethan From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Nov 15 01:10:45 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:10:45 -0000 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com><50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DB0B62E55914510AA966ABBCEE9A47C@MailBox> So where do they get all the parts from? Don't tell me they strip down real IBM PC motherboards!!!! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ?????ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS ? EDI Consulting Ltd ? Phone? 0118 971 4436 Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 15 November 2012 07:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM PC replica On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:47 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> Is this old news: >> >> http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >> > > Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for > $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM > PC go for less than $100 all the time. Less mouse poop? -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 01:13:11 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:13:11 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A49607.1040802@gmail.com> On 11/14/2012 11:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for > $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM > PC go for less than $100 all the time. > Less mouse poop? > > -ethan You usually have to pay extra for mouse poop. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 15 04:33:34 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:33:34 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 Message-ID: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> Anyone interested in a barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer DS15? Equipped with a 1 GHz 21264C/EV68CB, maxed out with 4 Gbytes RAM, (*original HP*, active-cooled, noise-free) ATi Radeon 7500, (rare) DS15 audio option, DEGX2 (dual-port Gigabit Ethernet) and a hot-swap front access disk cage (I may also be able to include two disks and sleds, contact me about that). A nice touch, especially for those used to the DS10, is that SCSI (KZPEA) is on-board. Besides the on-board KZPEA, I also have a KZPDC (HP/Compaq Smart Array 5300, Ultra160 SCSI RAID HBA) and/or KZPEC (HP Smart Array 6400, Ultra320 SCSI RAID HBA), as well as an HP/Neterion XFrame 10GbE NIC. Here are some pictures: - - - Feel free to e-mail me offers. - MG From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 07:16:26 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 05:16:26 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is this old news: > > http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html > Read more about it here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?31655 Thread: Motherboard Kit IBM Clone 64KB-256KB PCB: Diagnostic Help From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 09:01:46 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:01:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > Is this old news: > > http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html > I'm embarrased, but SQUEEEE! *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 09:16:05 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:16:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Is this old news: >> >> http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >> > > Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for > $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM > PC go for less than $100 all the time. > >From my standpoint, there's value in building a kit like this because it's fun. If you had to have some kind of high-brow justification for everything, nothing would ever get done. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 15 09:27:33 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:27:33 +0000 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 15 November 2012 15:16, geneb wrote: > > From my standpoint, there's value in building a kit like this because it's > fun. > > If you had to have some kind of high-brow justification for everything, > nothing would ever get done. :) Absolutely. I want to do that Build Your Own Z80 computer project that I never finished when I was 14. I wonder if I still have that wire wrapper someplace. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K1LZ1592bs PORK AND BEANS! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 09:33:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:33:52 -0500 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A50B60.3080000@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 10:27 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> If you had to have some kind of high-brow justification for everything, >> nothing would ever get done. :) > > Absolutely. I want to do that Build Your Own Z80 computer project > that I never finished when I was 14. Do it! That's such a great book. I'd suggest modernizing a few things from that design, though, like use (at least) 6116 or 6264/62256 SRAM chips rather than 2114s. > I wonder if I still have that wire wrapper someplace. If not, they're not tough to find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 15 09:38:13 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:38:13 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:47 PM -0800 11/14/12, mc68010 wrote: >On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>Is this old news: >> >>http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >> > >Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might >sell for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. >I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time. I have to agree, but then my interest is in running OS's & software that don't run on some variant of IBM PC. For that matter my only interest in old Mac's is in running ClarisDraw. As such while I might be interested in an updated C64 or Apple 2e, this isn't something that grabs my attention. Simply put to each there own. One must assume that if they're going to this effort, there is a market. Is there any sort of industrial application that would require these boards? Looked at from that standpoint, these might make sense then. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 15 09:50:12 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:50:12 -0600 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> I don't know about 8088s still being used in the mass market, but we still build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire machine shop off Apple IIs! Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever they do. That being said, I do have old Macs, C64 and C128 machines, tested and working. Even have Claris Draw around here someplace. Are you fairly local to San Antonio? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: Subject: Re: IBM PC replica At 10:47 PM -0800 11/14/12, mc68010 wrote: >On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>Is this old news: >> >>http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >> > >Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell >for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. >I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time. I have to agree, but then my interest is in running OS's & software that don't run on some variant of IBM PC. For that matter my only interest in old Mac's is in running ClarisDraw. As such while I might be interested in an updated C64 or Apple 2e, this isn't something that grabs my attention. Simply put to each there own. One must assume that if they're going to this effort, there is a market. Is there any sort of industrial application that would require these boards? Looked at from that standpoint, these might make sense then. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 09:59:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:59:40 -0500 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> Message-ID: <50A5116C.7060905@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 10:50 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I don't know about 8088s still being used in the mass market, but we still > build 80386s for CNC use. I see 8088-based PCs in CNC applications from time to time, but not often anymore. I see LOTS of them in (very old) embedded applications in that world, usually on STD-bus boards and custom stuff. Some of those boards are 30 years old, but if it does the job adequately, there's really no legitimate reason to mess with it, despite the heartburn of sales-slime everywhere. > We even have one customer that runs his entire > machine shop off Apple IIs! Neat! > Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching > things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever > they do. Yup. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 15 10:11:32 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 08:11:32 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> Message-ID: It's definitely cheaper to keep old systems running, especially on things like systems running in Nuclear Power Plants where the cost of requalifying new systems outweighs the cost of bringing in modern hardware. I'd not heard of a machine shop running on Apple II's, but am not surprised, as there are ones out there running on PDP-8's. Trust me, I don't need any more old Mac's, Commodore computers, or Apple II's. Quite the opposite. :-) I ran my copy of ClarisDraw (purchased in '95) until my G5 PowerMac died. One of these days I need to get a VM environment setup to run it on my Mac Pro, or else revive my G4/450. ClarisDraw is the one bit of software that I use on rare occasions that I really can't replace. Zane At 9:50 AM -0600 11/15/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >I don't know about 8088s still being used in the mass market, but we still >build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire >machine shop off Apple IIs! >Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching >things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever >they do. > >That being said, I do have old Macs, C64 and C128 machines, tested and >working. Even have Claris Draw around here someplace. Are you fairly local >to San Antonio? > >Cindy Croxton >Electronics Plus >1613 Water Street >Kerrville, TX 78028 >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >AOL IM elcpls > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:38 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: >Subject: Re: IBM PC replica > >At 10:47 PM -0800 11/14/12, mc68010 wrote: >>On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>>Is this old news: >>> >>>http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >>> >> >>Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell >>for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. >>I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time. > >I have to agree, but then my interest is in running OS's & software that >don't run on some variant of IBM PC. For that matter my only interest in >old Mac's is in running ClarisDraw. As such while I might be interested in >an updated C64 or Apple 2e, this isn't something that grabs my attention. >Simply put to each there own. > >One must assume that if they're going to this effort, there is a market. Is >there any sort of industrial application that would require these boards? >Looked at from that standpoint, these might make sense then. > >Zane > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 10:12:37 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 08:12:37 -0800 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha Message-ID: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> was wondering how rare this was http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 10:46:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 08:46:51 -0800 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > was wondering how rare this was > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has it--and in a few different languages. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 10:48:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:48:38 -0500 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> Message-ID: <444A7B15-E40D-4447-AAEC-E9A813FB9FB7@gmail.com> On Nov 15, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I don't know about 8088s still being used in the mass market, but we still > build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire > machine shop off Apple IIs! > Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching > things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever > they do. Cheaper and more reliable. We had a steel mill as a client at work who had an aging Multibus based real-time control system running their rolling presses; not the sort of thing where you want something to go wrong, or you lose something like a million dollars worth of steel and production time while you clean up the buckled ingot from the stands. We ended up replacing it with a National Instruments Core2 Duo system which worked quite well, except there was one pesky bug in their Ethernet drivers which would hang the entire system from time to time and was damn near impossible to track down, which is exactly the kind of nightmare people are worried about when replacing an old, working system with a new, unproven one. In the end, we only buckled one ingot, and it turned out it was because there was something in their existing system that didn't quite match the reams of system documentation. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 11:05:27 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:05:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> was wondering how rare this was >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 > > Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has it--and in a few > different languages. > Yep. Got a pile of the silly things. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 11:06:05 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:06:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> was wondering how rare this was >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 > > Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has it--and in a few > different languages. > If anyone has MSDN media prior to 1995 they want to get rid of, please let me know. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 11:29:52 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:29:52 -0800 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 8:46 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> was wondering how rare this was >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 > > Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has it--and in a few different languages. Retail packages seem to be less common. It took me a while to find a boxed WinNT 3.1 for CHM's collection and the early MS developers CDs. The betaarchive.com guys seem to gobble most of this stuff up. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 11:34:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:34:47 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <444A7B15-E40D-4447-AAEC-E9A813FB9FB7@gmail.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> <444A7B15-E40D-4447-AAEC-E9A813FB9FB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A527B7.1040007@sydex.com> On 11/15/2012 08:48 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 15, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> I don't know about 8088s still being used in the mass market, but we still >> build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire >> machine shop off Apple IIs! >> Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching >> things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever >> they do. > > Cheaper and more reliable. We had a steel mill as a client at work > who had an aging Multibus based real-time control system running > their rolling presses; not the sort of thing where you want > something to go wrong, or you lose something like a million dollars > worth of steel and production time while you clean up the buckled > ingot from the stands. A lot of Japanese CNC tools from the 80s and 90s were based on the PC98 architecture, so direct replacement of the controller can be difficult. I've even run into one or two old controllers that were based on the Mitsubishi Multi-16 platform. Interesting in that it's one of the few places where the old platform still exists. Sent off a disk drive last week modified to work with a Mitsubishi wire EDM tool--CP/M 86 running on a PC98 base. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 11:37:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20121115090556.K91279@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The board certainly looks like a PC 5150 clone. I wonder what they > found that differed from the published schematics. Well, a few changes, :-) the ORIGINAL 5150 used 4116's not 4264. and, the first row was soldered in. It was 16K - 256K. LATER 5150's, such as THIS "64KB - 256KB CPU" used 64K chips, AND could be trivially set/modified for 2 rows of 256K plus 2 rows of 64K. If one were to make an Apple][ replica, should it be a replica of the IIE or IIGS? If we're going all-out for the "nostalgia of the earliest one", then shouldn't we be replicating the earliest one? Or at least, the earliest MODEL? They're talking about a board from 1982. The ORIGINAL 5150 was released in August 1981. They have, instead, made a 1983 5150. Why are they running a 1983 copy of PC-DOS 2.10? (They probably got THEIR first 5150 in 1983) Their BASIC ROMS are real IBM, (C) 1983, and all labeled #5! BIOS ROM is currently replaced with a 28 pin chip labelled "DIAG ROM" (Like the Todd Fischer one?) I'm not concerned with the date codes of the chips, but the content of the ROMs changed. [slightly] When they release it, what ROMs are they going to ship? BASIC and BIOS infringement? Or, will they modify the circuit for EPROMs and ship a non-infringing [but SLIGHTLY incompatible] BIOS with NO BASIC??!? Although IBM published circuit diagrams, they were certainly NEVER "Open source"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 15 11:37:56 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:37:56 -0600 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <011a01cdc357$f30f7520$d92e5f60$@com> 1 large box of MSDN disks, but mine start in 2001. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:06 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> was wondering how rare this was >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 > > Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has it--and in a few > different languages. > If anyone has MSDN media prior to 1995 they want to get rid of, please let me know. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 11:53:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:53:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <50A527B7.1040007@sydex.com> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> <444A7B15-E40D-4447-AAEC-E9A813FB9FB7@gmail.com> <50A527B7.1040007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121115094901.N91279@shell.lmi.net> Are their "tech support" people prepared for the deluge of "Why can't I run Windows 8?" questions? Is the 1998 8088 chip truly bug-for-bug compatible with the 1981 chip? They have missed the XMAS shopping season completely. How much will it cost? Will this lower the value of my R at RE real 5150? From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Thu Nov 15 11:39:37 2012 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:39:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought Message-ID: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> Some of you may remember about a year ago I was approached about setting up a short term exhibit at a local museum with a theme of "Computers in Chess". They had a year or so of exhibits already on the schedule at the time. They recently reconnected with me and have asked me to submit a detailed proposal of items to exhibit. Of course, the proposal is due Dec 1st. The venue in question is a "real museum", so you can be assured of world-class facilities related to UV (light exposure), people certified to handle artifacts, environmental controls, security, etc. If any individuals or museums represented here might have ideas for portions of the exhibit and/or have artifacts, displays, etc. for loan I would very much like to see your ideas as quickly as possible. Rest assured that proper shipping, insurance, and compensation for temporary loan of items would be taken care of. The timeframe for the exhibit is May 2013, and the duration of the exhibit would be about 4 months. If your items are chosen to include in the proposal, the museum would contact you directly to arrange the loan and then provide a facillities report directly to the loaning institution or individual. It is very important to me that this exhibit succeeds. If you have any items related to "Computers in Chess" or display ideas, please email me off-list as soon as is possible for consideration. Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Nov 15 12:03:28 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:03:28 -0800 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> I still have my MSDN CDs from July 1995. A truly notable readme file is the I386 Setup.txt. To install from floppies you need to find some high density 3.51 inch floppy disks. Installing Windows NT Workstation 3.51 Using Floppy Disks . To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to format during setup. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:30 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha On 11/15/12 8:46 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> was wondering how rare this was >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 > > Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has it--and in a few different languages. Retail packages seem to be less common. It took me a while to find a boxed WinNT 3.1 for CHM's collection and the early MS developers CDs. The betaarchive.com guys seem to gobble most of this stuff up. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 15 12:32:20 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:32:20 -0600 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <012a01cdc35f$8c75c410$a5614c30$@com> We have some original Radio Shack computer chess sets, would that help any? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:40 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought Some of you may remember about a year ago I was approached about setting up a short term exhibit at a local museum with a theme of "Computers in Chess". They had a year or so of exhibits already on the schedule at the time. They recently reconnected with me and have asked me to submit a detailed proposal of items to exhibit. Of course, the proposal is due Dec 1st. The venue in question is a "real museum", so you can be assured of world-class facilities related to UV (light exposure), people certified to handle artifacts, environmental controls, security, etc. If any individuals or museums represented here might have ideas for portions of the exhibit and/or have artifacts, displays, etc. for loan I would very much like to see your ideas as quickly as possible. Rest assured that proper shipping, insurance, and compensation for temporary loan of items would be taken care of. The timeframe for the exhibit is May 2013, and the duration of the exhibit would be about 4 months. If your items are chosen to include in the proposal, the museum would contact you directly to arrange the loan and then provide a facillities report directly to the loaning institution or individual. It is very important to me that this exhibit succeeds. If you have any items related to "Computers in Chess" or display ideas, please email me off-list as soon as is possible for consideration. Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 12:42:28 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:42:28 -0500 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > I still have my MSDN CDs from July 1995. A truly notable readme file is the > I386 Setup.txt. To install from floppies you need to find some high density > 3.51 inch floppy disks. > > Installing Windows NT Workstation 3.51 Using Floppy Disks > . > To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, > formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to > format during setup. That extra quarter of a millimeter really makes the difference, though. Don't install without it! - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 12:53:07 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:53:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> from Jay West at "Nov 15, 12 11:39:37 am" Message-ID: <201211151853.qAFIr7wN29950098@floodgap.com> > It is very important to me that this exhibit succeeds. If you have any items > related to > "Computers in Chess" or display ideas, please email me off-list as soon as > is possible for consideration. I was thinking a KIM-1 running MicroChess would be fun to play against, though it was not a superbly difficult opponent. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "And when I have understanding of computers, I shall be the Supreme Being." From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 12:59:47 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:59:47 -0600 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: a pdp 8 runing chess would be good one theres some images on bitsavers if i am not mistaken of the software From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 13:02:09 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:02:09 -0800 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <201211151853.qAFIr7wN29950098@floodgap.com> References: <201211151853.qAFIr7wN29950098@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50A53C31.3070207@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 10:53 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I was thinking a KIM-1 running MicroChess would be fun to play against One thing you better make clear to anyone you ask for a loan from is if the visitors will be directly interacting with the artifacts. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 13:22:06 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:22:06 -0600 Subject: Midwest show: C4 2013 Message-ID: The C4 Commodore show, held every summer near Cincinnati, Ohio, did not happen this year due to lack of funds. The loyal Commodore scene doesn't want to make it two years in a row, so they are experimenting with pre-funding the show this time around: https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/c4-expo-2013 For this iteration they will be following the model set by Chicago's VCFMW/ECCC and opening their show up to all sorts of vintage computing, as well as extending the event to two days. The tentative date is the weekend of June 8, 2013. Like our show, no admission will be charged, but any donations are greatly appreciated. At this time I am not part of the planning process for the show but I do plan to make a donation and, work schedule permitting, attend. Questions should be directed to the contact address on the page above. >From what I've heard, the venue alone is worth the trip. (Also the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB, which I have been to, can easily eat up a whole day.) -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 15 13:46:19 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:46:19 -0700 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <50A53C31.3070207@bitsavers.org> References: <201211151853.qAFIr7wN29950098@floodgap.com> <50A53C31.3070207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A5468B.6000202@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/15/2012 12:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/15/12 10:53 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> I was thinking a KIM-1 running MicroChess would be fun to play against > > One thing you better make clear to anyone you ask for a loan from is if the > visitors will be directly interacting with the artifacts. > I thought that was the guy walking around with big bills and a shark suit. > Ben. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 15 15:07:42 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 21:07:42 -0000 Subject: Drool!!! In-Reply-To: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002101cdbfa7$ef1b7490$cd525db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <019c01cdc375$4367f9d0$ca37ed70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 11 November 2012 01:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Drool!!! > > http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-DEC-VAX-11-750-mainframe-vintage- > retro-co > mputer-not-PDP11-microvax- > /251180977499?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item3a7 > b8d8d5b > > Regards > > Rob Did someone on this list get it then? Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 15:35:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:35:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Books & esoteric crap In-Reply-To: <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121108140430.L67782@shell.lmi.net> Pickup free in Berkeley, or Priority Mail rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 "Tandy Model 2000 Technical Reference Manual" plastic comb (GBC binding) Radio Shack 1984 Pertec "Models FD400/FD500 Flexible Disk Drives Operating and Service Manual Number 600500" 1980 Plastic comb (GBC) binding "The Complete Idiot's Guid(tm) to Creating an HTML Web Page" Second edition by Paul McFredied Que 1997 ISBN 0-7897-1146-X Library discard Rebound with plastic comb (not due to wear, probably from scanning for blind student) Lotus 123 Release 3 "123 IBM 3.0 3.5" : F UPGRADE" 1111 000290 074901 7 3.5" diskettes New in box. Shrinkwrapped, but outer shipping box has been opened, and a 1 X 5" piece of the shipping box cut out, providing access to the barcode. "SuperCalc 5" retail package opened 5 3.5" diskettes, 10 5.25" diskettes (in opened EULA envelopes) "User's Guide", "Up and Running", "Quick Reference", function key template (left side 10 key) support and advertising loose crap "SuperCalc 5 Reference Manual" in binder/slipcase Does not appear to have been used No diskettes, etc. MicroPro "PlanStar" V1.01 "DEMO : NOT FOR RESALE" In MicroPro binder/slipcase, 2 5.25" diskettes, "Command Summary", "Refernce" "Primer", "Installation" manual does not appear to have been read "Compuserve" "Users guide" in binder and slipcase, does not appear to have been read "TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer Debug/Assembler" in Radio Shack "Software Library padded plastic binder with one cassette (binder (not specific to this product?) has pockets for 2) "ProCrypt" (DES) from Maverick Software (Peter Ricker), new, shrinkwrapped "Programming in C : For the microcomputer User" by Robert Traister Prentice Hall 1984 ISBN 0-13-729641-X some shelf wear "Inside Atari DOS" Bill Wilkinson Compute! Books 1982 "Addison-Wesley Pocket Guide to Programming" John Shelley 1982 ISBN: 0-201-07736-1 bent, deteriorating label on front cover "Operating System Toolbox : The Personal Operating System Construction Set" Wendin 8.5 X 11" in Wendin binder unused? "Softprobe II/TX" Systems & Software 1987 "User's Guide and Reference Guide" in "Osborne 1 User's Reference Guide" binder From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 09:44:44 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:44:44 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status Message-ID: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> After being contacted by Don's niece, I went down on behalf of CHM in July and retrieved every box of media that was in the storage unit from his garage. I've spent several months going through everything, including the PCs that were there, and could not find what I had assumed were disk images that are described in the 'sysdisk.txt' file that Don maintained which I've attached. Does anyone have any contacts with the San Diego folks that knew Don that could help with figuring out where these images would have been? It's possible either they were on more modern PCs, or on a CP/M system. CHM is not willing to take everything that is still in the storage unit (mostly paper and the computers that were in the garage). I'm going to have to make a pretty strong case for trying to recover any of the systems that are still there. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: sysdisk.txt URL: From mole42 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 12:30:43 2012 From: mole42 at gmail.com (Richard Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:30:43 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1EF3DA6C-3E0E-4048-815B-A33AD1F509CE@gmail.com> Hi, I'm interested in what you have found, I'd love it to be an article about the computer. It's a long time ago and I have only vague memories of soldering the logic units - some of the older boys got to assemble the actual machine! Best regards, Richard (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") Sent from my iPad On 14 Nov 2012, at 23:09, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Ed Spittles wrote: >>> On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: >>> >>>> This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete >>>> transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on >>>> the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag >>>> board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with >>>> small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone >>>> remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. >>> >>> Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the school >>> library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my recollection >>> is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off with >>> some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it >>> worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the >>> recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, >>> Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even have >>> starte with W. >> >> How about the magazine wireless World >> >> http://www.fano.co.uk/history/WWcomp.html >> >> I do believe I have the set of articles here somewhere > > Now found and scanned but due to the state of the paper are scanned in > greyscale > The article above refers to it continuing into 1968 but the stuff I > have found ends in December 1967 > > pm me for url as the files are large and cannot handle a download swarm. > > Dave Caroline From christopher1400 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 12:42:17 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:42:17 -0800 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: <20121115094901.N91279@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> <444A7B15-E40D-4447-AAEC-E9A813FB9FB7@gmail.com> <50A527B7.1040007@sydex.com> <20121115094901.N91279@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I can't comment on the compatibility between chips, if it's the same pinout as the original if there are any bugs found it shouldn't be too hard to swap for an original 8088, as far as I know they aren't ultra rare. I do wonder personally if a V20 would work in one of these remakes -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From tingox at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 13:42:02 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:42:02 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> References: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hello, On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:33 AM, MG wrote: > Anyone interested in a barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer As always: location, location, location. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 15:54:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:54:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB (Free Pick-Up In Berkeley): Micro reference manuals In-Reply-To: <20121108140430.L67782@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> <20121108140430.L67782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121115134811.Y98289@shell.lmi.net> Pickup free in Berkeley, or Priority Mail rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 "TRS-80 Color Computer Technical reference Manual" Radio Shack 1981 "Radio Shack Service manual : TRS-80 ModelIII Microcomputer : Catalog Numbers 26-1061/1062" 1980 "AmigaDOS Technical reference Manual" Commodore Bantam Press 1985 "AmigaDOS User's Manual" Commodore Bantam Press 1985 all "perfect binding" (NO, that is the name of paperback binding, not a statement of condition, although these are in good shape.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 15:56:55 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:56:55 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 7:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > After being contacted by Don's niece, I went down on behalf of CHM in > July and retrieved > every box of media that was in the storage unit from his garage. I've > spent several months > going through everything, including the PCs that were there, and could > not find what I had > assumed were disk images that are described in the 'sysdisk.txt' file > that Don maintained > which I've attached. > > That's really bad news. If they were images it seems like you would have found a setup that he used for copying them out again. It is suspicious the names of all the disks are limited to eight characters. That would sort of indicate they were files on something. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 16:10:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:10:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> > > To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, > > formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to > > format during setup. On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: > That extra quarter of a millimeter really makes the difference, though. > Don't install without it! Couldn't you compensate by using some sort of "disk expansion" (data compression) program? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 16:13:21 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:13:21 -0000 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <83CEF33AC0D94884B4A04D0BA4AD644B@G4UGMT41> I used to have a set of NT 5.0 Beta disks but not sure if they were before or after support for Alpha was dropped. Anything prior to NT5 (which of course was renamed Windows/2000) had Alpha support. Not sure when MIPS support was dropped, 3.51 perhaps? Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: 15 November 2012 17:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha > > > On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 11/15/2012 08:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> was wondering how rare this was > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 > > > > Anyone who subscribed to MSDN back then probably has > it--and in a few > > different languages. > > > Yep. Got a pile of the silly things. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 16:18:30 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:18:30 -0000 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <201211151853.qAFIr7wN29950098@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Not sure how old you are going but Battle Chess on an Amiga or Atari ST. It probably offends the real chess enthusiasts... Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: 15 November 2012 18:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Museum Exhibits Sought > > > > It is very important to me that this exhibit succeeds. If > you have any > > items related to "Computers in Chess" or display ideas, > please email > > me off-list as soon as is possible for consideration. > > I was thinking a KIM-1 running MicroChess would be fun to > play against, though it was not a superbly difficult opponent. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- "And when I have understanding of computers, I shall be > the Supreme Being." > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 15 16:19:08 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:19:08 -0000 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: References: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <01d301cdc37f$3d2266a0$b76733e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > Sent: 15 November 2012 19:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 > > Hello, > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:33 AM, MG wrote: > > Anyone interested in a barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer > > As always: location, location, location. > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen, > Norway Given the .nl address I am assuming Holland. Guessing that shipping to the UK would be a bit expensive though.... Regards Rob From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 15 16:29:29 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:29:29 -0600 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> On 11/15/12 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, >>> formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to >>> format during setup. > On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: >> That extra quarter of a millimeter really makes the difference, though. >> Don't install without it! > > Couldn't you compensate by using some sort of "disk expansion" Must. Not. Go There!!! Doc From bear at typewritten.org Thu Nov 15 16:31:22 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:31:22 -0800 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <83CEF33AC0D94884B4A04D0BA4AD644B@G4UGMT41> References: <83CEF33AC0D94884B4A04D0BA4AD644B@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Dave wrote: > Not sure when MIPS support was dropped, 3.51 perhaps? MIPS and PPC both ended at or around 4.0 SP3. ok bear. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 16:31:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:31:43 -0500 Subject: IBM PC replica In-Reply-To: References: <50A47458.9070303@jbrain.com> <50A48FF5.8040608@gmail.com> <00ef01cdc348$e5fda780$b1f8f680$@com> <444A7B15-E40D-4447-AAEC-E9A813FB9FB7@gmail.com> <50A527B7.1040007@sydex.com> <20121115094901.N91279@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A56D4F.9000501@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 01:42 PM, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > I can't comment on the compatibility between chips, if it's the same pinout > as the original if there are any bugs found it shouldn't be too hard to > swap for an original 8088, as far as I know they aren't ultra rare. I do > wonder personally if a V20 would work in one of these remakes I see no reason why it wouldn't. There was nothing at all "PC-specific" about the V20. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 15:39:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 21:39:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Nov 14, 12 09:28:29 pm Message-ID: > > A book which it isn't, but which is till intersting is 'We built our own > > computers'. IIRC, this describes switch and relay logic machins (no > > er nonono Which is why I said 'which it isn't' :-) > > > transistors, the odd diode, though) built by some school students in > > Exeter (England) in the 1960s. I remember the painted metal drum with > > contacts as the control sequencer. > > > > I must dig my copy out and re-read it.. > > You better then you will see transistors > starts page 368 August Wireless world We are talkign about differnt things. 'We Built are own computers' doesn't hve a page 360, and I cna find no transitors mentioned in it. Alas my coleltion of Wireless Worlds doesn't cotnian the appropraite issue(s) :-( -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 16:44:10 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Dave wrote: > Not sure how old you are going but Battle Chess on an Amiga or Atari ST. It > probably offends the real chess enthusiasts... > Which in itself is a perfect reason to include it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 16:44:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:44:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB (Free Pick-Up In Berkeley): Micro reference manuals In-Reply-To: <20121115134811.Y98289@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> <20121108140430.L67782@shell.lmi.net> <20121115134811.Y98289@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121115143911.W98289@shell.lmi.net> I've had at least three requests for each technical reference manual and for the Model 100 assembler! (but little or no interest in computer or programming books other than C) Is there a fair and reasonable way to divvy them up? Should I put the interested parties in touch with each other and let them work it out? Should I look at the seconds on the email time stamps? Should i ask for bids? Should I cut them up and divide the pieces? Any suggestions? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 16:49:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:49:23 -0500 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50A57173.4040105@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 05:29 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 11/15/12 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, >>>> formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to >>>> format during setup. >> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: >>> That extra quarter of a millimeter really makes the difference, though. >>> Don't install without it! >> >> Couldn't you compensate by using some sort of "disk expansion" > > > Must. > > Not. > > Go There!!! ROFL!!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 16:54:14 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:54:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 11/15/12 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, >>>> formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to >>>> format during setup. >> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: >>> That extra quarter of a millimeter really makes the difference, though. >>> Don't install without it! >> >> Couldn't you compensate by using some sort of "disk expansion" > > > Must. > > Not. > > Go There!!! Chicken. Just spin the disk at 900 RPM, you'll get that extra millimeter. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 17:15:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:15:41 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 1:56 PM, mc68010 wrote: > It is suspicious the names of all the disks are limited to eight > characters. That would sort of indicate they were files on something. > Exactly. I would assume it started on an MSDOS machine since I had heard he was using Teledisk. I also suspect some just came to him that way, since I've been able to find what I think may be the original disks, but it isn't everything that was there. I've tried reading some of them and it's a very mixed bag. They were stored in a garage and I've run into some that got wet. I also found most of the hundreds of disks from G. Herr that I sent him a LONG time ago. I have been able to recover a few things that people have been looking for, like TurboDOS 1.43 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 17:50:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:50:38 -0500 Subject: FPUIB (Free Pick-Up In Berkeley): Micro reference manuals In-Reply-To: <20121115143911.W98289@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> <20121108140430.L67782@shell.lmi.net> <20121115134811.Y98289@shell.lmi.net> <20121115143911.W98289@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A57FCE.60103@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 05:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've had at least three requests for each technical reference manual and > for the Model 100 assembler! > (but little or no interest in computer or programming books other than C) > > > Is there a fair and reasonable way to divvy them up? > > Should I put the interested parties in touch with each other and let them > work it out? > Should I look at the seconds on the email time stamps? > Should i ask for bids? > Should I cut them up and divide the pieces? > > > Any suggestions? Put my name last on the list; my library is at 1200 books and steadily growing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 15 18:00:22 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:00:22 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: References: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50A58216.90904@xs4all.nl> On 15-11-2012 20:42, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:33 AM, MG wrote: >> Anyone interested in a barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer > > As always: location, location, location. The Netherlands. (I believe I did mention it in my other FS/FT threads recently.) - MG From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 15 18:01:04 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:01:04 -0600 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> On 11/15/12 4:54 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> On 11/15/12 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> To install the Windows NT Workstation 3.51, you must have three blank, >>>>> formatted, high density 3.51" floppy disks, and an additional disk to >>>>> format during setup. >>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, David Riley wrote: >>>> That extra quarter of a millimeter really makes the difference, though. >>>> Don't install without it! >>> >>> Couldn't you compensate by using some sort of "disk expansion" >> >> >> Must. >> >> Not. >> >> Go There!!! > > Chicken. > > Just spin the disk at 900 RPM, you'll get that extra millimeter. :) I was thinking a little chrome, a big boom can on the tailpipe, some racing stickers and a megawatt bass booster.... "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the diameter of the tailpipe" Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 18:09:21 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <50A58216.90904@xs4all.nl> from MG at "Nov 16, 12 01:00:22 am" Message-ID: <201211160009.qAG09La129491240@floodgap.com> > > > Anyone interested in a barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer > > > > As always: location, location, location. > > The Netherlands. (I believe I did mention it in my other FS/FT > threads recently.) Ahhh. You must be the gentleman offering it on Nekochan too. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 18:10:34 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:10:34 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 3:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Exactly. I would assume it started on an MSDOS machine since I had > heard he > was using Teledisk. I also suspect some just came to him that way, > since I've > been able to find what I think may be the original disks, but it isn't > everything > that was there. I've tried reading some of them and it's a very mixed > bag. They > were stored in a garage and I've run into some that got wet. I also > found most of > the hundreds of disks from G. Herr that I sent him a LONG time ago. I > have been > able to recover a few things that people have been looking for, like > TurboDOS 1.43 > If you ever run into the Monroe ones let me know. I spent years looking in vain for them and always Don's SYSDISK.TXT kept coming up in searches taunting me. I don't even have the machine anymore but, I spent so many years looking I can't give up now. I won't let it beat me. I'm just going hang the floppy on the wall as a trophy. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 15 18:11:33 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:11:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/15/12 1:56 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> It is suspicious the names of all the disks are limited to eight >> characters. That would sort of indicate they were files on something. > > Exactly. I would assume it started on an MSDOS machine since I had heard > he was using Teledisk. I also suspect some just came to him that way, > since I've been able to find what I think may be the original disks, but > it isn't everything that was there. I've tried reading some of them and > it's a very mixed bag. They were stored in a garage and I've run into > some that got wet. I also found most of the hundreds of disks from G. > Herr that I sent him a LONG time ago. I have been able to recover a few > things that people have been looking for, like TurboDOS 1.43 Just a thought, but did he use Linux or BSD? If so, maybe he maintained his collection of files via DOSEMU? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 18:12:59 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:12:59 -0500 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50A5850B.7090101@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 07:01 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > I was thinking a little chrome, a big boom can on the tailpipe, some > racing stickers and a megawatt bass booster.... > > "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the > diameter of the tailpipe" "Taking advantage of the obvious performance characteristics of YELLOW!" -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 15 18:18:36 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:18:36 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <01d301cdc37f$3d2266a0$b76733e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> <01d301cdc37f$3d2266a0$b76733e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50A5865C.8030807@xs4all.nl> On 15-11-2012 23:19, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Given the .nl address I am assuming Holland. Guessing that shipping to the > UK would be a bit expensive though.... As long as it's within the EU, or 'Western Europe', it's not too bad. The DS15 is actually not that heavy, especially if one left out the disks (that would save another ~900 grams per disk, which certainly is the case with the higher capacity SCSI disks). Shipping within Europe should be between EUR ~35 and ~45, in the worst case scenario maybe EUR 50. That would only be a small portion of what one of these --- and rather rare --- systems is worth. Then there's also the brokered shipping path, which can sometimes be very cheap. I know someone who had two DEC PWS 500au systems (each with two disks) shipped for something like EUR ~45 total for *both* systems. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 15 18:27:20 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:27:20 +0100 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A58868.10303@xs4all.nl> On 15-11-2012 17:12, Al Kossow wrote: > was wondering how rare this was > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290809458943 The CD-ROM and floppy diskettes seem to indicate that it's for "x86 [Workstation]", except for the "Release Notes" diskette, unless I'm overlooking something. Rather confusing, also as the manual has both "x86" on it and the DEC "Alpha Generation" logo... - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 15 18:28:30 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:28:30 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <201211160009.qAG09La129491240@floodgap.com> References: <201211160009.qAG09La129491240@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50A588AE.7070309@xs4all.nl> On 16-11-2012 1:09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Ahhh. You must be the gentleman offering it on Nekochan too. How do you mean? I don't actively participate on that forum, mostly go there for the "Bazaar" section. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 15 18:32:23 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:32:23 +0100 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A58868.10303@xs4all.nl> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A58868.10303@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50A58997.6030506@xs4all.nl> On 16-11-2012 1:27, MG wrote: > The CD-ROM and floppy diskettes seem to indicate that it's for > "x86 [Workstation]", except for the "Release Notes" diskette, > unless I'm overlooking something. Rather confusing, also as > the manual has both "x86" on it and the DEC "Alpha Generation" > logo... I meant the box, actually. (Unless the seller didn't take pictures of everything, the box seems to be missing rather 'essential' content...) - MG From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 18:56:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: More FPUIB stuff (11/15) In-Reply-To: <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> References: <509BD8C8.5040707@bitsavers.org> <1352400969.1628.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121108113413.H64617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121115163307.A98289@shell.lmi.net> Pickup free in Berkeley, or Priority Mail rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 > "DeSmet C Development Package Manual" Version 2.3 C-WARE 1984 also Version 2.2 plus a few issues of their "C* Newsletter) in another generic 8.5 X 11 binder "Disk+ : An Easy To Use File Transfer Program : For Your Model 100 and your other computers" Manual only comb binding, no disks Portable Computer Support Group 1984 "TRS-80 Voice Synthesizer" Catalog Number 26-1180 MANUAL ONLY (the device was a repackaged Votrax) Poor quality original printing 13 pages stapled and punched Has a few good pages about phonemes. "Explorer 88 Floppy Controller Board" SCHEMATICS ONLY, no hardware, no text Netronics Research and Development LTD. (FG-5040) "Schematics for 4 drive 5 1/4 floppy controller, SASI Hard disk Interface, Clock/Calendar, Parallel Printer Interface" 10 pages of schematics for an FDC "TRS-80 ROM Routines Documented" Jack Decker The Alternate Source 1983 comb binding, faded covers 122 pages -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 19:23:04 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:23:04 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 4:11 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> Exactly. I would assume it started on an MSDOS machine since I had >> heard he was using Teledisk. I also suspect some just came to him >> that way, since I've been able to find what I think may be the >> original disks, but it isn't everything that was there. I've tried >> reading some of them and it's a very mixed bag. They were stored in a >> garage and I've run into some that got wet. I also found most of the >> hundreds of disks from G. Herr that I sent him a LONG time ago. I >> have been able to recover a few things that people have been looking >> for, like TurboDOS 1.43 > > > Just a thought, but did he use Linux or BSD? If so, maybe he > maintained his collection of files via DOSEMU? I think he was a bit old school for that but, who knows ;) From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 15 19:38:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:38:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/15/2012 4:11 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >>> Exactly. I would assume it started on an MSDOS machine since I had >>> heard he was using Teledisk. I also suspect some just came to him that >>> way, since I've been able to find what I think may be the original >>> disks, but it isn't everything that was there. I've tried reading some >>> of them and it's a very mixed bag. They were stored in a garage and >>> I've run into some that got wet. I also found most of the hundreds of >>> disks from G. Herr that I sent him a LONG time ago. I have been able >>> to recover a few things that people have been looking for, like >>> TurboDOS 1.43 >> >> Just a thought, but did he use Linux or BSD? If so, maybe he maintained >> his collection of files via DOSEMU? > > I think he was a bit old school for that but, who knows ;) It came to mind because of how easy it is to use it to switch between various DOS and DOS-clone type operating systems. If that's the case, and these files are small, they could easily be hiding in a disk image file on a hard drive somewhere. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 19:42:32 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:42:32 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A59A08.5090200@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 5:23 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Just a thought, but did he use Linux or BSD? If so, maybe he maintained his collection of files via DOSEMU? > > I think he was a bit old school for that but, who knows ;) > There are some random Win9x and Mac disks, but no evidence that those machines were in the garage that was packed up into the storage unit. We have a few pics of what the garage looked like and the only PC I can see was his imaging machine that had a bunch of different floppy cards in it. Sellam gave that machine to me a couple of years ago, but the disk was too small to have stored the collection. There was a 386 with a Maxtor ESDI out there, but it appears to have been wiped. Like I said, I hope the relatives still have some newer machines. Thinking about it, I haven't tried a low-level dump of the Maxstor yet. That would be a bit of a hassle to set up for. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 19:44:38 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:44:38 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A59A86.9030301@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 5:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > If that's the case, and these files are small, they could easily be hiding in a > disk image file on a hard drive somewhere. > There was nothing modern enough that I've seen to have supported that. As far as I know, Don wasn't a Unix guy. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 20:14:40 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:14:40 -0600 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50A5A190.2080308@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 06:01 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Just spin the disk at 900 RPM, you'll get that extra millimeter. :) > > I was thinking a little chrome, a big boom can on the tailpipe, some racing > stickers and a megawatt bass booster.... Don't forget to throw some neon lights underneath, too. > "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the diameter > of the tailpipe" Above a certain diameter they get mistaken for tunnels, with obvious catastrophic consequences. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 15 20:24:25 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:24:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A59A08.5090200@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> <50A59A08.5090200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/15/12 5:23 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >>> Just a thought, but did he use Linux or BSD? If so, maybe he >>> maintained his collection of files via DOSEMU? >> >> I think he was a bit old school for that but, who knows ;) > > There are some random Win9x and Mac disks, but no evidence that those > machines were in the garage that was packed up into the storage unit. We > have a few pics of what the garage looked like and the only PC I can see > was his imaging machine that had a bunch of different floppy cards in > it. Sellam gave that machine to me a couple of years ago, but the disk > was too small to have stored the collection. It would seem odd to store that stuff on a Win9x or Mac. A machine running MacOS X could have been a possibility, but if he wasn't a *nix guy, then that wouldn't seem likely either. > There was a 386 with a Maxtor ESDI out there, but it appears to have > been wiped. Like I said, I hope the relatives still have some newer > machines. > > Thinking about it, I haven't tried a low-level dump of the Maxstor yet. > That would be a bit of a hassle to set up for. Gulp. I first read "Maxtor ESDI" and then "wiped"...that sinking feeling is awful. If this was the main disk image storage, let's hope someone just did a quick format. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 20:58:11 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:58:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <50A588AE.7070309@xs4all.nl> from MG at "Nov 16, 12 01:28:30 am" Message-ID: <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> > > Ahhh. You must be the gentleman offering it on Nekochan too. > > How do you mean? I don't actively participate on that forum, > mostly go there for the "Bazaar" section. This isn't yours? http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16727141 (I'm just curious if it's the same unit, that's all.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" whilst finding a rock.-Tallyrand From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 21:00:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:00:50 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> Well, I don't think Don was even much of a Windows person. Most likely his stuff would be stored on a DOS drive of some sort. Have you looked for tapes or optical media that might have been used for backup? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 15 21:46:44 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:46:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A5850B.7090101@neurotica.com> References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> <50A5850B.7090101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/15/2012 07:01 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> I was thinking a little chrome, a big boom can on the tailpipe, some >> racing stickers and a megawatt bass booster.... >> >> "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the >> diameter of the tailpipe" > > "Taking advantage of the obvious performance characteristics of YELLOW!" You mustn't forget the advantage of The Wing! It adds at LEAST 10 hp! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 21:56:17 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:56:17 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 7:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, I don't think Don was even much of a Windows person. Most likely his stuff would be stored on a DOS drive of some sort. Have you looked for tapes or optical media that might have been used for > backup? > Yes. There were no obviously labeled backups. There are copies of DOS tape backup programs, though :-( No CD-Rs, or machines with CD-R or tape drives. There were one or two CD-Rs that appear to have been sent to him with CP/M content. It's pretty frustrating to have gotten this far and not actually have found the files or any backups which is why I'm hoping they may still be on machines that weren't in the storage unit. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Nov 15 22:18:33 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:18:33 -0800 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: <50A44EA3.5040701@bitsavers.org> References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> <1352921586.64611.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <6CAC104A-C8AD-4AB6-918E-C106F72D5AD3@shiresoft.com> <50A44EA3.5040701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/14/12 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> On Nov 14, 2012, at 11:33 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> It probably isn't the same machine, but there was an identical model in Washington State that I tried to buy many years ago, but the owner backed out because shipping it via freight was "just too much>trouble". Oh well. >>> >>> Did he at least keep the machine or did it go in other good hands? The worst is when people then just dump the system at the nearest yard after such an experience for the sake of too much time put into and too much "troube"? >> >> I received a reply to my message to the seller. Basically they're having problems with PayPal and want to get that fixed before doing anything else. > > you may want to ask what else they have. it appears to be the same people that had the 1108s 1108s? TTFN - Guy From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 22:25:28 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:25:28 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A5C038.8060900@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 7:56 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > were no obviously labeled backups. There are copies of DOS tape backup > programs, though :-( > No CD-Rs, or machines with CD-R or tape drives. There were one or two > CD-Rs that appear to have been > sent to him with CP/M content. It's pretty frustrating to have gotten > this far and not actually have > found the files or any backups which is why I'm hoping they may still > be on machines that weren't in > the storage unit. Could Sellam have got the files it in something he took ? From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 15 22:31:32 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:31:32 -0600 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A5C1A4.30100@pico-systems.com> There are several discrete transistor computers posted on the net, some with complete schematics. http://hackaday.com/2012/04/20/building-a-computer-with-discrete-transistors/ There was a German (possibly Dutch?) guy that made a discrete transistor computer using all one kind of SMT transistor and other SMT components on PC boards, it was the size of a shoebox. I can't find the link now. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 15 22:54:08 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, I don't think Don was even much of a Windows person. Most likely his stuff would be stored on a DOS drive of some sort. Have you looked for tapes or optical media that might have been used for > > backup? On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > Yes. There were no obviously labeled backups. There are copies of DOS tape backup programs, though :-( > No CD-Rs, or machines with CD-R or tape drives. There were one or two CD-Rs that appear to have been > sent to him with CP/M content. It's pretty frustrating to have gotten this far and not actually have > found the files or any backups which is why I'm hoping they may still be on machines that weren't in > the storage unit. I visualize at least four file cabinet drawers full of floppy disks. Even if he DID image everything, he would not have discarded the floppy originals. If you haven't seen a cubic yard of mutually unique floppies, then his collection is still missing. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Nov 16 00:04:02 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 03:04:02 -0300 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A5C1A4.30100@pico-systems.com> References: <50A5C1A4.30100@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <201211160504.qAG54HKD074941@billy.ezwind.net> Jon Elson wrote: > There was a German (possibly Dutch?) guy that made a discrete transistor > computer using all one kind of SMT transistor and other SMT components on > PC boards, it was the size of a shoebox. I can't find the link now. http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm -- Jecel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 23:10:37 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 21:10:37 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 8:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you haven't seen a cubic yard of mutually unique floppies, > then his collection is still missing. > I retrieved a Ford Explorer's worth of media. Well over 1000 floppies. What I did was went through as much as I could do before literally getting heat exhaustion in a totally packed 10x10 storage unit, pulling out any box that looked like it contained media. The recovery rate has been OK so far, but there's no way I have time to do it all. Much of it is unlabeled, or are applications (lots, and lots of copies of DBASE, Wordstar, etc. etc.). From looking at the pictures, it was just whatever was in the garage. The disks from me were still in the boxes that they went down there in. They certainly weren't in filing cabinets.. I can sort of figure out what was done later. He had dot-matrix printed labels on those (some of which you can see in the label jpgs I've been putting with the .img files on bitsavers) so I've been trying to match those up with the contents of the .txt file What I've done sort of matches. Someone else from CHM is going to be down there on other business for the next couple of weeks, so this is probably the last gasp of our involvement with any recovery. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 15 23:11:06 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 21:11:06 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5C038.8060900@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <50A5C038.8060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A5CAEA.5020407@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/12 8:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Could Sellam have got the files it in something he took ? > He claims to have no other machines. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 00:01:49 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:01:49 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5CAEA.5020407@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <50A5C038.8060900@gmail.com> <50A5CAEA.5020407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A5D6CD.7070608@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 9:11 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/15/12 8:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> Could Sellam have got the files it in something he took ? >> > He claims to have no other machines. > No other machines "left" I would guess. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 16 00:13:57 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:13:57 -0700 Subject: eBay Symbolics 3640 In-Reply-To: References: <50A3C8AD.7030200@gmail.com> <3DFE8EAF-2EF8-471B-9845-D53AC21743E8@shiresoft.com> <50A3D598.7090402@gmail.com> <97294B14-CAF6-48C0-9B86-32AD4FB31FC5@shiresoft.com> <1352921586.64611.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <6CAC104A-C8AD-4AB6-918E-C106F72D5AD3@shiresoft.com> <50A44EA3.5040701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A5D9A5.60708@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > you may want to ask what else they have. it appears to be the same > people that had the 1108s Guy Sotomayor wrote: > 1108s? From the context, I'd expect them to be Xerox 1108s. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 00:40:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:40:05 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5D6CD.7070608@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <50A5C038.8060900@gmail.com> <50A5CAEA.5020407@bitsavers.org> <50A5D6CD.7070608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A5DFC5.30901@sydex.com> On 11/15/2012 10:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/15/2012 9:11 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/15/12 8:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> Could Sellam have got the files it in something he took ? >>> >> He claims to have no other machines. >> > No other machines "left" I would guess. Well, I suspect he could well have stored samples the way I still store them--in a large filing cabinet. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 01:20:01 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:20:01 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5DFC5.30901@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <50A5C038.8060900@gmail.com> <50A5CAEA.5020407@bitsavers.org> <50A5D6CD.7070608@gmail.com> <50A5DFC5.30901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50A5E921.7050805@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 10:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2012 10:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 11/15/2012 9:11 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 11/15/12 8:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> >>>> Could Sellam have got the files it in something he took ? >>>> >>> He claims to have no other machines. >>> >> No other machines "left" I would guess. > > Well, I suspect he could well have stored samples the way I still > store them--in a large filing cabinet. > > --Chuck > > I always imagined he did exactly that. That he was imaging stuff is new to me but, makes way more sense. I could always picture him going through his carefully indexed file cabinets to find the original floppy. Then he would carefully take it over to his own computer, of the same type of course, and copy it. I always imagined a garage full of all the cp/m boxes. Pretty silly I guess. It's nice we are still talking about Don today. What made him a good guy was not his collection but, that he shared it with anyone who asked. From ed.spittles at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 01:20:33 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 07:20:33 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer Message-ID: > On 14 Nov 2012, at 23:09, Dave Caroline > wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dave Caroline > > wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Ed Spittles > >> wrote: > >>> On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > >>> > >>>> This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > >>>> transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > >>>> the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > >>>> board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > >>>> small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > >>>> remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. > >>> > >>> Richard, I think I read the book this project was based on - in the > >>> school > >>> library, mid-to-late 70's. I've been looking for it, but my > >>> recollection > >>> is so vague I haven't found it yet. I think it may have kicked off > >>> with > >>> some physical computing based on wood and ball bearings, but anyhow it > >>> worked up to a full serial CPU. My searches have been based on the > >>> recollection that the author was Wilkinson (but maybe Wilkins, Watson, > >>> Wilson, Watkins, Watkinson, ...) and, of course, it might not even > >>> have > >>> starte with W. > >> > >> How about the magazine wireless World > >> > >> http://www.fano.co.uk/history/WWcomp.html > >> > >> I do believe I have the set of articles here somewhere > > > > Now found and scanned but due to the state of the paper are scanned in > > greyscale > > The article above refers to it continuing into 1968 but the stuff I > > have found ends in December 1967 > > > > pm me for url as the files are large and cannot handle a download swarm. > > > > Dave Caroline > > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:30:43 +0000 > From: Richard Smith > > Hi, > > I'm interested in what you have found, I'd love it to be an article about > the computer. It's a long time ago and I have only vague memories of > soldering the logic units - some of the older boys got to assemble the > actual machine! > > Best regards, > Richard I'm very excited about Dave's scans, because the circuits look right and the date of 1967 would allow for both Richard's experience of building this at school and for the author to have published as a book. He states the intention of using the design as a teaching tool. Unfortunately there's no named credit in the scanned pages (anything in the contents list Dave?). But we do have "The computer will be on show at the R.S.G.B exhibition." The one-transistor NOR gate and the toggle-flop design are both as I remember them. Likewise the fact that it's bit-serial rings a bell. Dave: can I assume you're happy for me to re-publish some or all of your scans? I want to clip out at least some diagrams and tables. [Does this list allow for attachments or MIME emails?] Fourpence-ha'penny for a diode! Cheers Ed From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Nov 16 01:41:05 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:41:05 +1300 Subject: My Exidy Sorcerer on YouTube Message-ID: Sending to this list in case some are interested. http://youtu.be/f-neUEHhtCs Tez From ed.spittles at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 01:50:53 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 07:50:53 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer built from reject germanium transistors] Aha: here's an online version of a pamphlet reprinting that article series, which gives credit to Brian Crank: http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/Manuals/wirelessworldcomputer.pdf Cheers Ed See also http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-November/241361.html From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 16 02:01:57 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:01:57 +0100 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A5F2F5.4060901@xs4all.nl> On 2012-11-15 23:41, mc68010 wrote: > the names of all the disks are limited to eight characters. That would > sort of indicate they were files on something. The two images of the list I got from Don were TD0 files, TeleDisk image files. EPSNQX10.TD0 and EPSNVLDC.TD0. They came in a zip EPSQX.ZIP. Some extra, 'unsorted' zips were EPSQX-B.ZIP, EPSQX-D.ZIP and EPSQX-E.ZIP. Fred Jan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 16 02:13:26 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:13:26 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2012 12:50 AM, Ed Spittles wrote: >> [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer built from reject germanium transistors] > > Aha: here's an online version of a pamphlet reprinting that article > series, which gives credit to Brian Crank: > > http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/Manuals/wirelessworldcomputer.pdf > > Cheers > Ed > > See also http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-November/241361.html > How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium transistors. :) Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 16 02:26:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 01:26:43 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium > transistors. :) You can still get germanium transistors. It appears to me that 2N3906 silicon transistors should work in place of the 2G371 with only minor changes to the circuits. However, you should test individual circuits before you build the whole computer and discover that it doesn't work. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 02:45:01 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:45:01 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50A5FD0D.1090300@gmail.com> On 16/11/2012 08:13, ben wrote: > On 11/16/2012 12:50 AM, Ed Spittles wrote: >>> [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer >>> built from reject germanium transistors] >> >> Aha: here's an online version of a pamphlet reprinting that article >> series, which gives credit to Brian Crank: >> >> http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/Manuals/wirelessworldcomputer.pdf >> >> Cheers >> Ed >> >> See also >> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-November/241361.html >> > How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium > transistors. :) > Ben. > > > There was a dire shortage of the very rare round tuits during that period of my life, plus no access to a decent scanner. I actually wrote my first program when I was 17 or 18 years old ( so 1971/2) on a germanium transistor computer that had been built by my school derived from the wireless world design. I was taught by the school Music Teacher Hector Parr (http://www.hectorparr.freeuk.com/) who learnt to program so he could calculate tables of Organ Pipe lengths to assist in re-building the School pipe organ. I can't remember how many memories it had, or the word length, but I do remember that it was composed of flip-flops constructed from surplus "red spot" transistors. Each as bit was constructed on a small paxolin panel with a screw-in flash lamp bulb to show if it contained a "1" or a "zero". The whole assemble was mounted on the wall on a panel about 6 or 8 feet square, with a small console attached by a cable. It was a serial design so each "bit" was loaded separately by pressing a couple of door bell pushes labelled "0" and "1". The first thing you did before using it was to load it full of "1"s so you could check no bulbs had worked loose or blown. I do remember it would play NIM if you used the final HALT instruction as a "0" data byte. We didn't write much code on it, once we had written a successful program we were allowed to code Fortran II on an IBM1620 at a nearby college. We posted (or mailed for the US readers) our coding forms off on a Wednesday and with a bit of luck got the answers back on Friday, so sometimes you got two runs a week. I wasn't very careful and needed the two runs to get things working... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum P.S. Al, if you want to take a coipy of the scan, or of any of the other stuff on that site please feel free. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Nov 16 03:12:51 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:12:51 -0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <73F5DABB955B4E79B02099E4D2CFFC9E@MailBox> Very interesting..... I was at college between 1964 and 1969. My major subjects were Computing and Industrial Electronics. This article bears a strong resemblance to my lecture notes. 17" long Veroboard would warp like heck if you did not put a stiffener top and bottom. I can't see why other than cost and availability they used germanium transitors. ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben Sent: 16 November 2012 08:13 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: discrete transistor computer On 11/16/2012 12:50 AM, Ed Spittles wrote: >> [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer built from reject germanium transistors] > > Aha: here's an online version of a pamphlet reprinting that article > series, which gives credit to Brian Crank: > > http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/Manuals/wirelessworldcomputer.pdf > > Cheers > Ed > > See also http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-November/241361.html > How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium transistors. :) Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 16 03:25:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 02:25:07 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <73F5DABB955B4E79B02099E4D2CFFC9E@MailBox> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <73F5DABB955B4E79B02099E4D2CFFC9E@MailBox> Message-ID: <50A60673.80308@brouhaha.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I can't see why other than cost and availability they used germanium > transitors. Still two of the top reasons for component selection to this day. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 16 03:46:21 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:46:21 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> References: <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50A60B6D.2050705@xs4all.nl> On 16-11-2012 3:58, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This isn't yours? > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16727141 > > (I'm just curious if it's the same unit, that's all.) It's obviously the same system, but like I said, I mostly use the "Bazaar" section. - MG From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Nov 16 04:09:19 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:09:19 +0000 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He.. Battle chess was fun to watch, I agree, but for playing, it was always SARGON (on the TRS-80) for me ... On 15 November 2012 22:44, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Dave wrote: > >> Not sure how old you are going but Battle Chess on an Amiga or Atari ST. >> It >> probably offends the real chess enthusiasts... >> > Which in itself is a perfect reason to include it. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Nov 16 04:19:49 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:19:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <50A60B6D.2050705@xs4all.nl> References: <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> <50A60B6D.2050705@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1353061189.54833.YahooMailNeo@web133106.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> >On 16-11-2012 3:58, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> This isn't yours? >> >> ??? http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16727141 >> >> (I'm just curious if it's the same unit, that's all.) > >It's obviously the same system, but like I said, I mostly use >the "Bazaar" section. > >? - MG I don't think that Cameron meant to criticise you in any way for posting on Nekochan. In fact, it's cool you posted it there because that way we can see images of that nicely configured AlphaServer :) Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Nov 16 05:14:05 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:14:05 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin collection status Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > Yes. There were no obviously labeled backups. There are copies of DOS tape backup programs, though :-( > No CD-Rs, or machines with CD-R or tape drives. There were one or two CD-Rs that appear to have been > sent to him with CP/M content. It's pretty frustrating to have gotten this far and not actually have > found the files or any backups which is why I'm hoping they may still be on machines that weren't in > the storage unit. I corresponded with Don extensively in the 1990's. I know he could work with images but I think he felt more comfortable with individual floppy disks. As a result the correspondence was largely by shipping physical disks to him. I tried to encourage him to organize disk images into a directory tree as the "usual method" of working with the collection, but do not feel I made much progress. I have a very strong belief that he largely used CP/M machines to duplicate floppies. He obviously had a PC and used Usenet and E-mail and could even FTP and I know I did exchange images with him like that, but again shipping physical disks was the primary way of moving data to him. I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies. I know nearly every unique "original" CP/M (or MP/M or CP/M-86 or whatever) distro I found, I made sure he got the original disk. Tim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 16 08:04:33 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 06:04:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Exidy Sorcerer on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > Sending to this list in case some are interested. > http://youtu.be/f-neUEHhtCs > That was neat! Thanks for doing the video. Did you notice that the ROM pack cases appear to be the same as those used for 8-Track tapes? BTW, you might want to find a used FlipHD camera. They're pretty inexpensive and will do full HD video. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 08:28:09 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:28:09 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A59A08.5090200@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A59578.2090401@gmail.com> <50A59A08.5090200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A64D79.3080306@gmail.com> On 11/15/2012 07:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > There was a 386 with a Maxtor ESDI out there, but it appears to have been > wiped. Like I said, I hope > the relatives still have some newer machines. > > Thinking about it, I haven't tried a low-level dump of the Maxstor yet. > That would be a bit of a hassle to set up for. Hmm, I think that's a worthwhile route to investigate - either get the drive into a more modern system, or boot via floppy and either serial-link data blocks across or run something to scan for anything that might be a teledisk signature. None of which are trivial, of course... From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 16 08:09:43 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 06:09:43 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> On 11/16/12 3:14 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies. In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. Here is a picture of the garage, as it was when it looked when it was packed up Most of the machines there are still in storage. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 16 09:46:40 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 07:46:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <1353061189.54833.YahooMailNeo@web133106.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> from P Gebhardt at "Nov 16, 12 10:19:49 am" Message-ID: <201211161546.qAGFkeDQ29163604@floodgap.com> > >It's obviously the same system, but like I said, I mostly use > >the "Bazaar" section. > > I don't think that Cameron meant to criticise you in any way for posting on > Nekochan. In fact, it's cool you posted it there because that way we can > see images of that nicely configured AlphaServer :) > > Kind regards, > Pierre Pierre said it exactly. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't. -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 09:58:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:58:41 -0500 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A5C1A4.30100@pico-systems.com> References: <50A5C1A4.30100@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <50A662B1.30007@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 11:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > There are several discrete transistor computers posted on the net, some > with complete schematics. > http://hackaday.com/2012/04/20/building-a-computer-with-discrete-transistors/ > > There was a German (possibly Dutch?) guy that made a discrete transistor > computer using all one kind of SMT transistor and other SMT components on > PC boards, it was the size of a shoebox. I can't find the link now. Oh, the MT15, as someone else pointed out. I fell into that web page for a solid hour when I first ran across it. For years I've wanted to build a system like that. Maybe someday. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 09:59:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:59:09 -0500 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> <50A5850B.7090101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50A662CD.70202@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2012 10:46 PM, geneb wrote: >>> I was thinking a little chrome, a big boom can on the tailpipe, some >>> racing stickers and a megawatt bass booster.... >>> >>> "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the >>> diameter of the tailpipe" >> >> "Taking advantage of the obvious performance characteristics of YELLOW!" > > You mustn't forget the advantage of The Wing! It adds at LEAST 10 hp! And the ROL (Random Oriental Lettering) decals. They are ESSENTIAL for good performance. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 10:09:10 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:09:10 -0500 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> References: <50A588AE.7070309@xs4all.nl> <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote > This isn't yours? > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16727141 Nice. I have a couple of older Alphas (one is *much* larger, with a Futurebus+), so I know a little about the line, but not the later models. I had no idea HP packaged them up with their hot-swap drives. I've only ever seen DEC-badged Alphas in person. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 16 10:16:57 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:16:57 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> On 11/16/12 6:09 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/12 3:14 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies. > > In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. > > Here is a picture of the garage I forgot, ccomp eats attachements Pic at http://aek.chadless.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 16 10:31:37 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:31:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <50A662CD.70202@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 16, 12 10:59:09 am" Message-ID: <201211161631.qAGGVbR214090248@floodgap.com> > >>> "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the > >>> diameter of the tailpipe" > >> > >> "Taking advantage of the obvious performance characteristics of YELLOW!" > > > > You mustn't forget the advantage of The Wing! It adds at LEAST 10 hp! > > And the ROL (Random Oriental Lettering) decals. They are ESSENTIAL > for good performance. The iVTEC decals on my Civic Si are, in fact, a stealth external turbo. (actually does drive an Si, but does not have I <3 JDM stickers, red Honda logos, a custom wing, or spinning rims; it did come with a fart-can exhaust but I didn't install that) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't I be happier? ----------------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 10:52:41 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:52:41 -0200 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha References: <50A51475.4010504@bitsavers.org> <50A51C7B.1010002@sydex.com> <50A52690.5040909@bitsavers.org> <000301cdc35b$846145a0$8d23d0e0$@comcast.net> <20121115140835.N98289@shell.lmi.net> <50A56CC9.6000605@vaxen.net> <50A58240.20809@vaxen.net> <50A5850B.7090101@neurotica.com> <50A662CD.70202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>>> I was thinking a little chrome, a big boom can on the tailpipe, some >>>> racing stickers and a megawatt bass booster.... >>>> "The top speed of a Honda Accord is inversely proportional to the >>>> diameter of the tailpipe" >>> "Taking advantage of the obvious performance characteristics of >>> YELLOW!" >> You mustn't forget the advantage of The Wing! It adds at LEAST 10 hp! > And the ROL (Random Oriental Lettering) decals. They are ESSENTIAL > for good performance. Don't forget the "turbo" badge...It will add some 100hp to the already-pimped-motor :oD And lots of street cred Tschhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 11:05:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:05:24 -0500 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: References: <50A588AE.7070309@xs4all.nl> <201211160258.qAG2wBfM30670950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50A67254.5070804@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 11:09 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Nice. I have a couple of older Alphas (one is *much* larger, with a > Futurebus+), so I know a little about the line, but not the later > models. I had no idea HP packaged them up with their hot-swap drives. > I've only ever seen DEC-badged Alphas in person. What FB+ Alphas do you have? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 11:25:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:25:16 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/16/2012 11:09 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Nice. I have a couple of older Alphas (one is *much* larger, with a >> Futurebus+), so I know a little about the line, but not the later >> models. I had no idea HP packaged them up with their hot-swap drives. >> I've only ever seen DEC-badged Alphas in person. > > What FB+ Alphas do you have? One of these... http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=895 4000 AXP Model 710. Got it 10 years ago, fiddled with it when I first got it (it boots to one of two different versions of UNIX on two of the 5 installed SCSI disks) but don't have much reason to use it often. One interesting historical note - it was formerly OSCAR, the card catalog computer for the Ohio State University library system. I picked it up from surplus for $50 because I wanted the included TSZ07 (and I can't ship a TSZ07 for $50!) I put more hours on the tape drive reading old backup tapes than I ever put on the server. It has one CPU and about 1/4 the max amount of memory. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 16 11:29:06 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:29:06 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2012 1:26 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > ben wrote: >> How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium >> transistors. :) > > You can still get germanium transistors. > > It appears to me that 2N3906 silicon transistors should work in place of > the 2G371 with only minor changes to the circuits. However, you should > test individual circuits before you build the whole computer and > discover that it doesn't work. I was thinking 2N2222's. I took a quick look and nothing seems to need ge transistors. I still have to check what is PNP or NPN's so 2N2222's may not work. Ben. BTW how much is 1p in today's money, in US dollars. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 11:50:23 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:50:23 -0500 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2012, at 12:29 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/16/2012 1:26 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> It appears to me that 2N3906 silicon transistors should work in place of >> the 2G371 with only minor changes to the circuits. However, you should >> test individual circuits before you build the whole computer and >> discover that it doesn't work. > > I was thinking 2N2222's. I took a quick look and nothing seems to need ge transistors. > I still have to check what is PNP or NPN's so 2N2222's may not work. 2N2222s should work, but they're heavy hitters. Seems like overkill. Also, I haven't read the article in question yet (need to dig through the thread to find the link), but if Eric was talking about 2N3906s, those are PNP (the 2N2222 is NPN). You'd probably need to modify the schematic, if only a little bit. 2N3906 and 2N4402 are the PNP complements of 2N3904 and 2N4401, respectively; those are probably the cheapest general-purpose BJTs you're likely to find. I have a general preference for the 4401 over the 3904, but it probably doesn't make a huge difference. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 12:20:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:20:45 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A683FD.6050000@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 12:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> What FB+ Alphas do you have? > > One of these... > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=895 > > 4000 AXP Model 710. Got it 10 years ago, fiddled with it when I first > got it (it boots to one of two different versions of UNIX on two of > the 5 installed SCSI disks) but don't have much reason to use it > often. > > One interesting historical note - it was formerly OSCAR, the card > catalog computer for the Ohio State University library system. I > picked it up from surplus for $50 because I wanted the included TSZ07 > (and I can't ship a TSZ07 for $50!) I put more hours on the tape > drive reading old backup tapes than I ever put on the server. > > It has one CPU and about 1/4 the max amount of memory. Nice! Sounds like a HECnet node in the making! I have a large number of TurboLaser Bus modules here, for AS8000-family machines. I've been unsuccessful in finding one to put them in...I want an 8200 or an 8400, but they seem to have completely disappeared. I haven't seen one on the market for YEARS. I have no idea of what's up with that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 12:32:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:32:26 -0500 Subject: My Exidy Sorcerer on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A686BA.80609@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 02:41 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Sending to this list in case some are interested. > http://youtu.be/f-neUEHhtCs Very nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 16 12:50:25 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/12 6:09 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/16/12 3:14 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> >>> I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", and >>> 3.5" floppies. >> >> In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. >> >> Here is a picture of the garage > > I forgot, ccomp eats attachements > Pic at http://aek.chadless.com/ Oh wow. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Nov 16 12:50:32 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:50:32 +0000 Subject: OSCAR [was RE: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1345@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:25 AM > One interesting historical note - it was formerly OSCAR, the card > catalog computer for the Ohio State University library system. Wow. I remember when OSCAR was maintained on the administrative IBM System/370 over in that building north of the library. The VAX was not even a design idea yet, of course, when I first met OSCAR. (I worked in the library from September 1973 to August 1975, first on the shelving crew and after 1 quarter at the circulation desk. When I told my Stanford students later that programming paid better than shelving books at the library, I knew what I was talking about.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 12:57:01 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:57:01 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Here is a picture of the garage > > > I forgot, ccomp eats attachements > Pic at http://aek.chadless.com/ > > Nice Tektronix system on the bench. Did you indicate there is hardware in the storage unit also? Good luck with the software. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 12:58:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:58:58 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A68CF2.2010205@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 01:50 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", >>>> and 3.5" floppies. >>> >>> In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. >>> >>> Here is a picture of the garage >> >> I forgot, ccomp eats attachements >> Pic at http://aek.chadless.com/ > > Oh wow. :( Holy crap. You ain't kiddin'! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 13:09:45 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:09:45 -0500 Subject: OSCAR [was RE: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1345@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1345@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:25 AM > >> One interesting historical note - it was formerly OSCAR, the card >> catalog computer for the Ohio State University library system. > > Wow. I remember when OSCAR was maintained on the administrative IBM > System/370 over in that building north of the library. The VAX was > not even a design idea yet, of course, when I first met OSCAR. I remember the 3270 terminals in the OSU library. > (I worked in the library from September 1973 to August 1975, first > on the shelving crew and after 1 quarter at the circulation desk. My family moved to 87 E 12th (a block from the Student Union) in 1970 when my dad got a job with the Vet School as a photographer. When I was growing up, OSU was our park, and while we couldn't check out books, we could visit the library and read books in there. I spent a lot of time in the main library and the engineering library on my own after about 1979, but I'm sure I went to the main library with my mother when you were working the desk. > When I told my Stanford students later that programming paid better > than shelving books at the library, I knew what I was talking about.) Heh. No doubt. -ethan From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Nov 16 13:16:38 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:16:38 +1300 Subject: My Exidy Sorcerer on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50A686BA.80609@neurotica.com> References: <50A686BA.80609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Did you notice that the ROM pack cases appear to be the same as those used for 8-Track tapes? Yes, apparently they are. >BTW, you might want to find a used FlipHD camera. They're pretty inexpensive and will do full HD video. :) Yea. , the quality of my camera is not that great. It's a fairly old one. Also the lighting leaves a bit to be desired. The (long-term) plan is to make short video commentaries on all of the machines in my collection. I might look at getting myself a new camera for Xmas (-: >Very nice! Thank you Dave. Terry From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 16 13:25:08 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:25:08 -0000 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <564D80F38E384DDCB26A901B0D298420@ANTONIOPC> Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: > On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Dave McGuire> wrote: >> What FB+ Alphas do you have? > > One of these... > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=895 > > 4000 AXP Model 710. Got it 10 years ago, fiddled with it when I first I have a DEC 4000-610 in storage. AFAIK the DEC 4000 line was the only set of computers that DEC produced that used FB+. DECnis also used FB+ (or FB?, I forget the exact details ...) but I remember being told that there were some incompatibilities, so, even with some new software and a hammer, you'd still never be able to get cards from either one to work in the other. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 16 13:49:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:49:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> > > If you haven't seen a cubic yard of mutually unique floppies, > > then his collection is still missing. On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > I retrieved a Ford Explorer's worth of media. Well over 1000 floppies. > What I did was went through as much as I could do before literally > getting heat exhaustion in a totally packed 10x10 storage unit, > pulling out any box that looked like it contained media. You have a herculean task! Unfortunately, the Alpheus and Peneus rivers won't help any. Don't overdo it! We can't afford to lose you, too! Actually, the picture of his garage didn't look like I expected it to be. I expected a full cram, with no way for "outsiders" to differentiate between the clutter and the goodies. For XenoSoft, the most important Intellectual Property is the collection of sample disks. Everything else could be re-written, and you never know when you might need to go back to the original to recheck something - "Ah HA! That disk is 77 track, but it is FORMATTED to 80 tracks! THAT's why disks more than half full have file position errors on some files!". Don apparently always worked alone - even his wife didn't know about his hobby. Therefore, his labelling, for his own use, might be completely indecipherable for anybody else. 17/4 could mean, "disk is the 4th disk in the 17th box", etc. Although he probably had extensive imaging to make it easier to fulfill requests, his primary collection is disks, not images. His memory was probably eidetic, and he probably relied more on remembering everything than on organization and labelling. A VERY large portion of the sample disks will be duplicates of the user's WORDSTAR disk, no matter what was ASKED for. And the USER labelling was oft less than useless. Lots of the "Televideo" disks that came in were due to the user not understanding that the name of the TERMINAL was not the name of the computer system. Even if the numbered or labelled sample disks that comprise the REAL collection are never found, there is a wealth of information scattered through what is there. Finding the image files would permit resuming SOME of the day-to-day ways that Don helped people. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 16 14:05:04 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:05:04 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50A69C70.7060200@bitsavers.org> On 11/16/12 10:57 AM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Nice Tektronix system on the bench. Did you indicate there is hardware > in the storage unit also? > yes, most of the systems are still there along with a lot of documentation if it hasn't been recycled, it may be available in the near future. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 14:19:53 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:19:53 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A69FE9.1040306@gmail.com> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: >> I retrieved a Ford Explorer's worth of media. Well over 1000 floppies. >> What I did was went through as much as I could do before literally >> getting heat exhaustion in a totally packed 10x10 storage unit, >> pulling out any box that looked like it contained media. > There are probably a few of us on the list willing to come lend a hand next time something like this comes up. May even be list members locally. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 14:32:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:32:53 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> On 11/16/2012 11:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > A VERY large portion of the sample disks will be duplicates of the user's > WORDSTAR disk, no matter what was ASKED for. And the USER labelling was > oft less than useless. Lots of the "Televideo" disks that came in were > due to the user not understanding that the name of the TERMINAL was not > the name of the computer system. I think I still have a couple of samples labeled "Hazeltine". Hey, how can you argue with someone who says that the machine has "Hazeltime 1400" written right on it? --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Nov 16 14:39:40 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:39:40 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244E21@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Al writes: > Tim writes: >> I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppies. > In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. Yes there are, but those are not Don's speciality, which was CP/M boot disks. The zip files I gave to Don tended to be things like BIOS source files, disassemblies, etc. Probably true for others too. Often these were closely associated with a particular system or boot disk. Don never made the leap to "disk image" being the central focus. Possibly With good justification because he supported many non-FM/non-MFM formats (GCR, hard sectored, etc.) that teledisk et al did not handle. Tim. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 16 14:46:00 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:46:00 -0000 Subject: WinNT 3.51 for Alpha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94A4FB013214406AA804CECBC8C0D712@ANTONIOPC> Dragging this (temporarily :-)) back on topic, I happen to have a WindwsNT 3.5 boxed set. I was given it when I was working at DEC, but it looks as though it was a proper retail package (and not an engineering prototype). Most bits seem to say both x86 and Alpha Generation. The CD says 3.5 and is part number AY-PYZVC-BH. The part listing (date 05-JUL-95) says 3.5A. There's a (still sealed) Digital Road Map for Windows NT (QC-02NAA-H8 ... 1.1), looks like there's one CD inside. Then there's some paperwork. There are three x86 3.5" floppies and one floppy for Alpha (although it just says release notes). If this little lot is going to replace my pension plan, someone please let me know :-) Antonio From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 16 15:06:09 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:06:09 +0000 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A683FD.6050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 16/11/2012 18:20, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 11/16/2012 12:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> What FB+ Alphas do you have? >> >> One of these... >> >> http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=895 >> >> 4000 AXP Model 710. Got it 10 years ago, fiddled with it when I first >> got it (it boots to one of two different versions of UNIX on two of >> the 5 installed SCSI disks) but don't have much reason to use it >> often. >> > I have a large number of TurboLaser Bus modules here, for > AS8000-family machines. I've been unsuccessful in finding one to put > them in...I want an 8200 or an 8400, but they seem to have completely > disappeared. I haven't seen one on the market for YEARS. I have no > idea of what's up with that. The only TurboLaser I ever saw in the wild was an 8400 being field tested at ICI Dumfries (Scotland) while I was installing a TruCluster of 4100s. It looked very Heath Robinson and the engineer on site swore at it most foul because of it's tendency to crash. These days I walk past its offspring every day, we have several large Alphas in the warehouse at work, the biggest being a GS60e which is the direct descendent. I power 'em up from time to time, the noise of that, an AXP7710 and a VAX6200 is almost music to my ears :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Nov 16 15:09:48 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:09:48 +1300 Subject: More about Don Maslin? Message-ID: Hi Guys, I've been following this thread but don't (or rather didn't) know of Don Maslin. From what's been written it seems he's passed away and was a collector/cataloger of CP/M disks for a whole range of systems. Obviously he's well known to this group. For the sake of us "newcomers" can someone elaborate a little on Don's life and his contribution to community? Terry (Tez) From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 13:40:33 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:40:33 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 111, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:09:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 > Nice. I have a couple of older Alphas (one is *much* larger, with a > Futurebus+), so I know a little about the line, but not the later > models. I had no idea HP packaged them up with their hot-swap drives. > I've only ever seen DEC-badged Alphas in person. > > -ethan I was part of the team that created the Futurebus+ specification. My name is in the front with the other authors. -- Michael Thompson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 15:38:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:38:32 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: References: <50A683FD.6050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 16/11/2012 18:20, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 11/16/2012 12:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> What FB+ Alphas do you have? >>> >>> http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=895 >>> >>> 4000 AXP Model 710. > > I power 'em up from time to time, the noise of that, an AXP7710 and a > VAX6200 is almost music to my ears :) If I want the sweet sounds, I fire up the VAX8300 in the basement. I still have production code for COMBOARDs on that (backed up several ways, of course). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 16:08:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:08:48 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 111, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A6B970.6040809@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 02:40 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> Nice. I have a couple of older Alphas (one is *much* larger, with a >> Futurebus+), so I know a little about the line, but not the later >> models. I had no idea HP packaged them up with their hot-swap drives. >> I've only ever seen DEC-badged Alphas in person. >> >> -ethan > > I was part of the team that created the Futurebus+ specification. > My name is in the front with the other authors. Nice work. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 16:11:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:11:20 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 04:06 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> I have a large number of TurboLaser Bus modules here, for >> AS8000-family machines. I've been unsuccessful in finding one to put >> them in...I want an 8200 or an 8400, but they seem to have completely >> disappeared. I haven't seen one on the market for YEARS. I have no >> idea of what's up with that. > > The only TurboLaser I ever saw in the wild was an 8400 being field tested at > ICI Dumfries (Scotland) while I was installing a TruCluster of 4100s. It > looked very Heath Robinson and the engineer on site swore at it most foul > because of it's tendency to crash. I've never heard of one crashing. Bizarre. We had two 8400s (8x 5/300) in the datacenter at a previous job. They were really quite nice machines. They did a lot of offline processing for a pre-Google search engine called Altavista. > These days I walk past its offspring > every day, we have several large Alphas in the warehouse at work, the > biggest being a GS60e which is the direct descendent. Very nice! Take them home! > I power 'em up from time to time, the noise of that, an AXP7710 and a > VAX6200 is almost music to my ears :) Glorious! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 16 16:21:14 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:21:14 -0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 111, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Thompson [michael.99.thompson at gmail.com]: > I was part of the team that created the Futurebus+ > specification. My name is in the front with the other authors. Indeed it is. After digging up P896.1 I went and checked Digital Tech Journal V5 N1, which includes an article about the DECnis and that does indeed use FB+. I've found one Cobra (DEC 4000) document that indicates it uses FB+ too. (Just in case someone really needs to know when browsing the list archives eons from now ...) The Cobra System Overview mentions that, as FB+ was an open bus, 3rd-party options might be made available, for example HPPI and a VMEbus interface. I don't know whether anything like that ever happened. I don't think the DEC 4000 lived long enough for much of a market to build up and I don't know of any other DEC systems (apart from DECnis) which used FB+. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 16 16:44:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:44:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: References: <50A683FD.6050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> On 16/11/2012 18:20, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> >>> On 11/16/2012 12:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> What FB+ Alphas do you have? >>>> >>>> http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=895 >>>> >>>> 4000 AXP Model 710. >> >> I power 'em up from time to time, the noise of that, an AXP7710 and a >> VAX6200 is almost music to my ears :) > > If I want the sweet sounds, I fire up the VAX8300 in the basement. I > still have production code for COMBOARDs on that (backed up several > ways, of course). I had an 8250 with four RA-81 drives. Got that little beauty straight out of the machine room at Mannesmann-Tally. Neat machine. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 16:57:24 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:57:24 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> On 11/16/2012 03:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/16/2012 11:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> A VERY large portion of the sample disks will be duplicates of the >> user's >> WORDSTAR disk, no matter what was ASKED for. And the USER labelling was >> oft less than useless. Lots of the "Televideo" disks that came in were >> due to the user not understanding that the name of the TERMINAL was not >> the name of the computer system. > > I think I still have a couple of samples labeled "Hazeltine". Hey, how > can you argue with someone who says that the machine has "Hazeltime > 1400" written right on it? > > --Chuck > > More than likely it meant the stuff on it was optimized for a H1400 terminal (Hazeltine only made terminals). Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 17:14:36 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:14:36 -0500 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50A6C8DC.9040600@verizon.net> On 11/16/2012 12:50 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 16, 2012, at 12:29 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 11/16/2012 1:26 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> It appears to me that 2N3906 silicon transistors should work in place of >>> the 2G371 with only minor changes to the circuits. However, you should >>> test individual circuits before you build the whole computer and >>> discover that it doesn't work. >> I was thinking 2N2222's. I took a quick look and nothing seems to need ge transistors. >> I still have to check what is PNP or NPN's so 2N2222's may not work. > 2N2222s should work, but they're heavy hitters. Seems like > overkill. Also, I haven't read the article in question > yet (need to dig through the thread to find the link), but > if Eric was talking about 2N3906s, those are PNP (the 2N2222 > is NPN). You'd probably need to modify the schematic, if > only a little bit. > > 2N3906 and 2N4402 are the PNP complements of 2N3904 and > 2N4401, respectively; those are probably the cheapest > general-purpose BJTs you're likely to find. I have a > general preference for the 4401 over the 3904, but it > probably doesn't make a huge difference. > > > - Dave The 2N2222A is a great device but a bit heavy duty for this application and more costly. However for high current buffer/inverter/driver it could be a good choice. The winner is PN2222 (plastic 2n2222) and 2n3904. I use 2N3904s a lot for switching and RF applications and it's a good all round device. Typically when I buy them I get 100 at a time as I use them for Zeners (base-emitter reversed is about 7V), Varicaps (base-collector reverse biased), High conductance diode (base shorted to collector) and of course as a transistor. Generally I pay about 3-4 cents (US) for known vendor parts. Another device that is newer than the old bipolar transistor days are the MOSFETs specifically those in the 2N7000 and similar class as switches. They offer very low on resistance and high noise margin with the gate turn on voltage in the 3-8 Volt range. Any one using them in quantity would do well to create a go/no-go tester for leakage and gain as a project like that will consume a lot of transistors and marginal ones are a big nuisance. For diode the 1n914 and the 1n4148 are good choices for DRTL style logic. Allison From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 17:46:11 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:46:11 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50A6D043.30700@gmail.com> On 11/16/2012 02:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > how can you argue with someone who says that the machine has "Hazeltime 1400" > written right on it? That's quite clearly an instruction to eat Nutella every afternoon at 2pm. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 17:42:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:42:55 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6D043.30700@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6D043.30700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A6CF7F.4080505@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2012 06:46 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> how can you argue with someone who says that the machine has >> "Hazeltime 1400" >> written right on it? > > That's quite clearly an instruction to eat Nutella every afternoon at 2pm. If you look hard enough, such instructions can be found EVERYWHERE. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 17:54:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 15:54:20 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> On 11/16/2012 02:57 PM, allison wrote: > More than likely it meant the stuff on it was optimized for a H1400 > terminal (Hazeltine only made terminals). I knew that, but try arguing with a customer about that. The 1400--one of the more awful, but cheap, terminals in the terminal universe. For some odd reason, it used tilde (hex 7E) as the escape lead-in character. I also seem to recall that attributes tood up a space in the display, but I may have that confused with one of the early Wyse displays. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 16 17:59:57 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:59:57 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A6C8DC.9040600@verizon.net> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A6C8DC.9040600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50A6D37D.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2012 4:14 PM, allison wrote: > I use 2N3904s a lot for switching and RF applications and it's a good > all round device. > Typically when I buy them I get 100 at a time as I use them for Zeners > (base-emitter > reversed is about 7V), Varicaps (base-collector reverse biased), High > conductance diode > (base shorted to collector) and of course as a transistor. Generally I > pay about 3-4 cents > (US) for known vendor parts. What I was wondering was how much it would cost today ( single sided pcb ) and modern parts, compared with the original product. I wonder what speed leds work at, and use them for switching diodes. The advantage is a nice visible logic gate. Hmm, A blue transistor when on would be nice too! > Another device that is newer than the old bipolar transistor days are > the MOSFETs > specifically those in the 2N7000 and similar class as switches. They > offer very low > on resistance and high noise margin with the gate turn on voltage in the > 3-8 Volt range. > > Any one using them in quantity would do well to create a go/no-go tester > for leakage > and gain as a project like that will consume a lot of transistors and > marginal ones are > a big nuisance. > > For diode the 1n914 and the 1n4148 are good choices for DRTL style logic. I am planning at the momement using 2901's, a nice 10/20 bit computer. 20 address bits, 4.77 mhz clock , byte access bus, and front panel - The PC* killer . :) 1976 ish era mini-computer, rather than micro-computer with a micro-chip. (Of course if any wants to put this design in silcon, feel free to do so) :) > Allison > > Ben. * At the moment a design with static memory, now for dynamic memory refresh cycle I would have to check if it will fit in the micro-code rom. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 21:10:14 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:10:14 -0500 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A6D37D.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A6C8DC.9040600@verizon.net> <50A6D37D.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50A70016.90301@verizon.net> On 11/16/2012 06:59 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/16/2012 4:14 PM, allison wrote: > >> I use 2N3904s a lot for switching and RF applications and it's a good >> all round device. >> Typically when I buy them I get 100 at a time as I use them for Zeners >> (base-emitter >> reversed is about 7V), Varicaps (base-collector reverse biased), High >> conductance diode >> (base shorted to collector) and of course as a transistor. Generally I >> pay about 3-4 cents >> (US) for known vendor parts. > > What I was wondering was how much it would cost today ( single sided > pcb ) > and modern parts, compared with the original product. I wonder what > speed leds > work at, and use them for switching diodes. The advantage is a nice > visible > logic gate. Hmm, A blue transistor when on would be nice too! > > Go two sided for ground plane and easier layout. the cost difference is small. Leds make crappy diodes and are very slow (large die). Leds are slower than transistors. Building them in as state indicators on board for testing and troubleshooting has merit. However even small Leds eat power and are as costly as a transistor. >> Another device that is newer than the old bipolar transistor days are >> the MOSFETs >> specifically those in the 2N7000 and similar class as switches. They >> offer very low >> on resistance and high noise margin with the gate turn on voltage in the >> 3-8 Volt range. >> >> Any one using them in quantity would do well to create a go/no-go tester >> for leakage >> and gain as a project like that will consume a lot of transistors and >> marginal ones are >> a big nuisance. >> >> For diode the 1n914 and the 1n4148 are good choices for DRTL style >> logic. > > I am planning at the momement using 2901's, a nice 10/20 bit computer. > 20 address bits, 4.77 mhz clock , byte access bus, and front panel - > The PC* killer . :) > 1976 ish era mini-computer, rather than micro-computer with a micro-chip. > (Of course if any wants to put this design in silcon, feel free to do > so) :) > 4.77mhz is about as fast as 2901s will run without pipelining. I did an 8/16 bitter with 2901Cs and was profoundly disappointed. Add length like 20 or 36bits makes for problems like devices like disks as most available will be 8 or 16bits. Then again with large disks half word splits will fit. Makes it troublesome to do 12 or other odd by current standards lengths for words. As to PC killer, that was never needed, the pc was killing itself with a cpu that was 8080 with a bag on the side. I always felt that the 8086/88 was a market successful while failed design. Maybe why I used PDP11s and Z80s till 1991 when 32bits made the scene at least interesting. The PC was an appliance, not the latest computing tech. Allison >> Allison >> >> > Ben. > * At the moment a design with static memory, now for dynamic memory > refresh cycle > I would have to check if it will fit in the micro-code rom. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 16 22:57:54 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:57:54 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A70016.90301@verizon.net> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A6C8DC.9040600@verizon.net> <50A6D37D.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A70016.90301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50A71952.1050602@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2012 8:10 PM, allison wrote: > 4.77mhz is about as fast as 2901s will run without pipelining. > I did an 8/16 bitter with 2901Cs and was profoundly disappointed. How ever in hindsight, memory speed and bus width ( 8 bits ) was the limiting factor in speed back then. > Add length like 20 or 36bits makes for problems like devices like disks > as most available will be 8 or 16bits. Then again with large disks > half word splits will fit. Makes it troublesome to do 12 or other odd by > current standards lengths for words. Disks don't care what bits they get. With my limited knowlage, interface chips where made for the upcoming 8 bit micro's, other machines still relied on racks full of equipment. > As to PC killer, that was never needed, the pc was killing itself with a > cpu that > was 8080 with a bag on the side. I always felt that the 8086/88 was a > market successful while failed design. Maybe why I used PDP11s and Z80s > till 1991 when 32bits made the scene at least interesting. The PC was an > appliance, not the latest computing tech. The computer market, did need a machine with more the 64K and only Motorola and Intel had a product that could sell in personal computer. All the other chips came out just too late. Since when is the latest, allways the best. I still favor analog audio media, and film for photos, and REAL IBM keyboards. > > Allison Any how since I am doing this computer as hobbie,I can play with the design as "what if" and get a feel why computers ( crappy as they be in some ways) are the way they are from that era in time. Ben. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 23:10:07 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 05:10:07 +0000 Subject: FPUIB (Free Pick-Up In Berkeley): Micro reference manuals Message-ID: <1348560774-1353129005-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1239108954-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Or if one of them has the ability to scan it (alternatively perhaps there's a scanned version out there already) it might benefit all the requestors. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 17 01:49:05 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:49:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/12 6:09 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/16/12 3:14 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> >>> I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", and >>> 3.5" floppies. >> >> In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. >> >> Here is a picture of the garage > > I forgot, ccomp eats attachements > Pic at http://aek.chadless.com/ Have there been any plans to liquidate the collection? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 17 02:25:57 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:25:57 +0100 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:11:20 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > We had two 8400s (8x 5/300) in the datacenter at a previous job. They > were really quite nice machines. They did a lot of offline processing > for a pre-Google search engine called Altavista. Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot back in its days. A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 02:42:18 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:42:18 +0000 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> On 17/11/2012 08:25, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:11:20 -0500 > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> We had two 8400s (8x 5/300) in the datacenter at a previous job. They >> were really quite nice machines. They did a lot of offline processing >> for a pre-Google search engine called Altavista. > Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot > back in its days. A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... I don't think it did, it was sold and abandoned just in front of the steam roller that is google, very sad... ... even Babel Fish seems to have gone, and that underground homage that was astalavista.net seems to have gone legit -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat Nov 17 03:00:35 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:00:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1353142835.16235.YahooMailNeo@web133106.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> > >> ? We had two 8400s (8x 5/300) in the datacenter at a previous job.? They >> were really quite nice machines.? They did a lot of offline processing >> for a pre-Google search engine called Altavista. > Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot > back in its days. A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... > -- > Yep, used Altavista a lot in the nineties, too. Recalling that it was running on several Alphaserver 8400, I googled and found a nice picture? at CHM: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102640677 Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 17 05:27:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:27:27 +0100 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:42:18 +0000 Dave Wade wrote: > > Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot > > back in its days. A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... > I don't think it did, it was sold and abandoned just in front of the > steam roller that is google, very sad... Sold and abandoned just like DEC, as I wrote... Interesting question: Would google have happened if Altavista wherent ruined? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 08:08:57 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:08:57 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6CF7F.4080505@neurotica.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6D043.30700@gmail.com> <50A6CF7F.4080505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 16 November 2012 23:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/16/2012 06:46 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> how can you argue with someone who says that the machine has >>> "Hazeltime 1400" >>> written right on it? >> >> That's quite clearly an instruction to eat Nutella every afternoon at 2pm. > > If you look hard enough, such instructions can be found EVERYWHERE. Yup. They're written next to the fnords. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 08:10:16 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:10:16 +0000 Subject: "Code like it's 1982!" Message-ID: https://sites.google.com/site/pauldunn/ SpecBAS is a remake of Sinclair BASIC - it's faster, far more powerful and more colourful than Sinclair BASIC has ever been! SpecBAS incorporates all the features of Sinclair BASIC, but with more: Procedures, with both referenced and normal variable parameters Flow control with DO..LOOP, WHILE..LOOP, DO..UNTIL Better array handling, with variable BASE settings and FOR..EACH support Better string handling with LEFT$, RIGHT$, MID$, REPEAT$ etc Memory banks which can be loaded, saved and utilised to hold a variety of data types Many, many more maths functions, with both radians and degrees support Graphics with 8bpp in any supported resolution with full palette changing, rotation, scaling etc Sound support with MOD/S3M/XM/IT/MP3/VOC/WAV etc Turtle graphics, sprites, tilemaps. And it has less: No more attribute clash no 48k restriction full disk access, so no tapes! No more beeper :) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 09:09:51 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:09:51 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 6:27 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:42:18 +0000 > Dave Wade wrote: > >>> Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot >>> back in its days. A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... >> I don't think it did, it was sold and abandoned just in front of the >> steam roller that is google, very sad... > Sold and abandoned just like DEC, as I wrote... > > Interesting question: Would google have happened if Altavista wherent > ruined? Yes, because Google made the paradigmatic leap (MapReduce) that all its competitors [almost inexplicably] failed to make. http://research.google.com/archive/mapreduce.html This is not to say MapReduce is 100% original, but somehow in Google's architecture and implementation, they hit all the right buttons and changed the game. --Toby From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 17 09:18:58 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:18:58 -0600 Subject: classiccmp status Message-ID: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> 1) Due to the generosity of Richard (with myself making up the balance of the cost), there is now a wildcard SSL certificate on the classiccmp server that can provide encrypted connections for any subdomain hosted under the classiccmp server. For all of you that host websites on the classiccmp server, if you're located on a subdomain of classiccmp.org and wish to take advantage of that let me know and I'll add it to your virtual host configuration. Thanks Richard! 2) We are finally "in process" of moving our datacenter (where the classiccmp server is located). We're not actually moving any machines, we're building new infrastructure at the new datacenter and then migrating services "across the wire" from the old datacenter to the new one. Then the equipment at the old datacenter will (mostly) be scrapped. Generally we don't expect any outages for the classiccmp mailing list, bitsavers repository, and related classiccmp hosted websites, but there will be short off-hours periods of time where no changes should be made to existing content. We'll do our best to make sure any relevant issues are posted here for the list. 3) Just to make sure that newer listmembers are aware, we will gladly host any classic/vintage computer related website at no cost for you. Free disk space, Free bandwidth, etc. We provide this service not just for individuals but companies and institutions. I should point out that we'll host any service for free that is vintage computer related - not just websites. We'll host mailing lists, ftp or rsyncd repositories, whatever you wish. Hosting services is what one of my companies does as it's main line of business, so you can be assured of a world class infrastructure (not just a webserver running in someone's basement or in a corner of their business server room). If you have a vintage computer related website or content and you're tired of paying a monthly fee to have it hosted elsewhere, send me an email directly (off-list) to jwest at classiccmp.org and we'll get things set up for you. Best, Jay West From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 17 09:39:38 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:39:38 -0500 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <50A71952.1050602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A5F5A6.8010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A5F8C3.9060209@brouhaha.com> <50A677E2.50107@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A6C8DC.9040600@verizon.net> <50A6D37D.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A70016.90301@verizon.net> <50A71952.1050602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50A7AFBA.7070903@verizon.net> On 11/16/2012 11:57 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/16/2012 8:10 PM, allison wrote: > >> 4.77mhz is about as fast as 2901s will run without pipelining. >> I did an 8/16 bitter with 2901Cs and was profoundly disappointed. > > How ever in hindsight, memory speed and bus width ( 8 bits ) was the > limiting factor in speed back then. No, the system I was building ran 2167s a 55ns parts not a problem. The time it takes for the 2901a to do things like propagate a carry and other internal operations that involve anythingthat ripples through is the limit. Then you have to allow for bus timing. > >> Add length like 20 or 36bits makes for problems like devices like disks >> as most available will be 8 or 16bits. Then again with large disks >> half word splits will fit. Makes it troublesome to do 12 or other >> odd by >> current standards lengths for words. > > Disks don't care what bits they get. With my limited knowlage, interface > chips where made for the upcoming 8 bit micro's, other machines still > relied on racks full of equipment. > Actually they didn't but in practical terms you cant use/buy them much any more so your limited to building now with devices that are based on 8/16 bit interfaces. As to racks, no the most of the interfaces are less than a fraction of a rack like about 4-7u. > >> As to PC killer, that was never needed, the pc was killing itself with a >> cpu that >> was 8080 with a bag on the side. I always felt that the 8086/88 was a >> market successful while failed design. Maybe why I used PDP11s and Z80s >> till 1991 when 32bits made the scene at least interesting. The PC >> was an >> appliance, not the latest computing tech. > The computer market, did need a machine with more the 64K and only > Motorola > and Intel had a product that could sell in personal computer. All the > other chips > came out just too late. > Yes, true. save for the 8088/86 was still a 16bit program counter with an embedded MMU at no time could it address more than 64K of instruction space or data space. Even that was doable with then z80. The PDP11 had the MMU that was worth emulating. > Since when is the latest, allways the best. I still favor analog audio > media, > and film for photos, and REAL IBM keyboards. > The keyboard is ok. But most of my analog media (1/4in tape and vinyl) are degrading. > Any how since I am doing this computer as hobbie,I can play with the > design > as "what if" and get a feel why computers ( crappy as they be in some > ways) > are the way they are from that era in time. > Ben. > Yes you can. I only give the benefit of been there and did that as in I did build fairly complex transistor logic, TTL based systems and even a few things with 2901s. The frustration then was more bits were expensive and everything was lower than I'd have liked. However some of the architectures were inspired and I still see the PDP-8 as an amazing machine for what it could do with so little actual hardware. Allison > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 17 09:42:17 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:42:17 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> On 11/16/2012 06:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/16/2012 02:57 PM, allison wrote: > >> More than likely it meant the stuff on it was optimized for a H1400 >> terminal (Hazeltine only made terminals). > > I knew that, but try arguing with a customer about that. The > 1400--one of the more awful, but cheap, terminals in the terminal > universe. For some odd reason, it used tilde (hex 7E) as the escape > lead-in character. I also seem to recall that attributes tood up a > space in the display, but I may have that confused with one of the > early Wyse displays. > > --Chuck H1400 was ANSI just like VT100 (in Vt100 mode) and many others. The escape sequences were ANSI plus private (hazelitne additions). You may be thinking of Wyse on the memory thing. Allison > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 09:59:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:59:47 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50A7B473.3030006@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2012 10:42 AM, allison wrote: >>> More than likely it meant the stuff on it was optimized for a H1400 >>> terminal (Hazeltine only made terminals). >> >> I knew that, but try arguing with a customer about that. The >> 1400--one of the more awful, but cheap, terminals in the terminal >> universe. For some odd reason, it used tilde (hex 7E) as the escape >> lead-in character. I also seem to recall that attributes tood up a >> space in the display, but I may have that confused with one of the >> early Wyse displays. > > H1400 was ANSI just like VT100 (in Vt100 mode) and many others. The > escape sequences were ANSI plus private (hazelitne additions). Uhh...I used a Hazeltine 1400 for a long time. (then a 1420, then a 1500) I don't recall anything even remotely ANSI-like about its command set. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 17 10:27:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201211171627.LAA12387@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I knew that, but try arguing with a customer about that. The >> 1400--one of the more awful, but cheap, terminals in the terminal >> universe. For some odd reason, it used tilde (hex 7E) as the escape >> lead-in character. > H1400 was ANSI just like VT100 (in Vt100 mode) and many others. The > escape sequences were ANSI plus private (hazelitne additions). > You may be thinking of Wyse on the memory thing. More likely the 1500, which definitely did use a ~ leadin for what for most terminals would be escape sequences. (The 1420 used an escape leadin but was otherwise completely unlike X3.64 or X3.41.) The 1510 and 1520 were switchable. The 1552, well, in the words of termcap: # Note: the h1552 appears to be the first Hazeltine terminal which # is not braindamaged. It has tildes and backprimes and everything! (The 1500, in addition to using ~ as a leadin, displayed ` as a solid quad rather than a backprime. I forget whether it filled up the whole character cell; I think I still have a Hazeltine of some stripe, and if so and if it still works, I can check what it does in these respects within the next few days.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 10:28:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:28:16 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50A7BB20.5030903@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2012 03:25 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> We had two 8400s (8x 5/300) in the datacenter at a previous job. They >> were really quite nice machines. They did a lot of offline processing >> for a pre-Google search engine called Altavista. > Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot > back in its days. I think we all did. It was a good system. > A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... Yep. Damn suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 10:30:25 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:30:25 +0000 Subject: "Code like it's 1982!" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's sick! I like it. On 17 November 2012 14:10, Liam Proven wrote: > https://sites.google.com/site/pauldunn/ > > SpecBAS is a remake of Sinclair BASIC - it's faster, far more powerful > and more colourful than Sinclair BASIC has ever been! > > SpecBAS incorporates all the features of Sinclair BASIC, but with more: > > Procedures, with both referenced and normal variable parameters > Flow control with DO..LOOP, WHILE..LOOP, DO..UNTIL > Better array handling, with variable BASE settings and FOR..EACH support > Better string handling with LEFT$, RIGHT$, MID$, REPEAT$ etc > Memory banks which can be loaded, saved and utilised to hold a variety > of data types > Many, many more maths functions, with both radians and degrees support > Graphics with 8bpp in any supported resolution with full palette > changing, rotation, scaling etc > Sound support with MOD/S3M/XM/IT/MP3/VOC/WAV etc > Turtle graphics, sprites, tilemaps. > > And it has less: > > No more attribute clash > no 48k restriction > full disk access, so no tapes! > No more beeper :) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 10:48:03 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:48:03 -0600 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: miss's the good old days of altavista aww the memories of school computing with kidworks 2 haha :) my school got a computer lab in 93 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 11:17:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:17:44 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50A7C6B8.8030204@sydex.com> On 11/17/2012 07:42 AM, allison wrote: > H1400 was ANSI just like VT100 (in Vt100 mode) and many others. The > escape sequences were ANSI plus private (hazelitne additions). > > You may be thinking of Wyse on the memory thing. After a little checking, it was the 1500--it was 1977 when I used one. The attribute occupying a character space was indeed the godawful WY-50. Wyse did sell a pile of those, didn't they? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 11:17:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:17:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121117091540.O58139@shell.lmi.net> > Have there been any plans to liquidate the collection? Not until after it is FOUND. Don Maslin's collection continues to be missing. So far, all that has been found is some of the hardware that he used to maintain the collection and help-out the entire computer collecting community. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 11:29:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:29:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A7C6B8.8030204@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> <50A7C6B8.8030204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121117092707.D58139@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > After a little checking, it was the 1500--it was 1977 when I used one. > The attribute occupying a character space was indeed the godawful WY-50. > Wyse did sell a pile of those, didn't they? I received a few sample disks with the disk format identified as "Wyse", so they must have sold a few. A significant portion had "Morrow" content on the disks. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 11:53:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:53:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Jay West wrote: > 1) Due to the generosity of Richard (with myself making up the balance > of the cost), THANK YOU, BOTH! > that we'll host any service for free that is vintage computer related > - not just websites. We'll host mailing lists, ftp or rsyncd > repositories, whatever you wish. THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 17 11:58:32 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:58:32 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <20121117092707.D58139@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> <50A7B059.2010202@verizon.net> <50A7C6B8.8030204@sydex.com> <20121117092707.D58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A7D048.5080205@verizon.net> On 11/17/2012 12:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> After a little checking, it was the 1500--it was 1977 when I used one. >> The attribute occupying a character space was indeed the godawful WY-50. >> Wyse did sell a pile of those, didn't they? > I received a few sample disks with the disk format identified as "Wyse", > so they must have sold a few. A significant portion had "Morrow" content > on the disks. > > > Like the 1400 or should I say the 14xx there were several versions of the 15xx. I worked with the 1500, 1552, and 1520. there was also a 1400, 1420 and a rare 1452 (the latter may have been as many as 5 or 6 of them). Mostly because I got some time inside Hazeltine. Myself I never went with any of them as I was using the H19 when it became available. It was a decent tube. Allison From jecel at merlintec.com Sat Nov 17 13:23:02 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:23:02 -0300 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> Toby Thain wrote: > On 17/11/12 6:27 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Interesting question: Would google have happened if Altavista wherent > > ruined? > > Yes, because Google made the paradigmatic leap (MapReduce) that all its > competitors [almost inexplicably] failed to make. For me it was PageRank that made all the difference. I remember when searching on the Internet meant using Archie or Veronica to find interesting files on public FTP servers. When I created my first web site ("Mosaic page") in 1994, you were supposed to send an email to UIUC so they could update their page listing all the home pages in the world. By the time Altavista came along, the web had grown enough that indexing it all on a single workstation was a great demo of what the Alpha could do and it was what DEC did to impress many pontential buyers. It soon evolved into a separate business. But as the web continued to grow, it became less and less useful as it became common for the link you were looking for to be on page 8 or later of the results. In 1998 I switched to Google because PageRank meant I rarely had to look beyond the top half of the first page of the results to see what I was looking for. The "I'm feeling lucky" button was meant to show off this feature. -- Jecel From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 12:57:52 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:57:52 +0000 Subject: More about Don Maslin? Message-ID: <1708192087-1353178669-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-793645646-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I hadn't worked with him and unfortunately only know his name from others speaking of his work. As you heard I believe he had one of the largest/complete collections of cp/m out there. He seemed like the go to guy if there was an image needed. From what I understand there wasn't an online archive of it so he just had the collection in some form offline (probably due to copyrights and liability) but he'd offer the image upon request. I thought Curtis on the vintage-computer forums had also begun creating cp/m images after Don's collection was deemed "lost". I don't recall if he was in touch with the family as well. These are just my passer by views though. I'm sure others here knew him better than my speculations. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 13:14:25 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:14:25 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 17 November 2012 17:53, Fred Cisin wrote: > THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER Been thinking about writing a Gopher server. How hard can it be? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Nov 17 13:28:54 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:28:54 +1300 Subject: More about Don Maslin? In-Reply-To: <1708192087-1353178669-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-793645646-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1708192087-1353178669-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-793645646-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Thanks, a least you've confirmed this is the person I thought it was. Terry On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 7:57 AM, wrote: > I hadn't worked with him and unfortunately only know his name from others > speaking of his work. As you heard I believe he had one of the > largest/complete collections of cp/m out there. He seemed like the go to > guy if there was an image needed. From what I understand there wasn't an > online archive of it so he just had the collection in some form offline > (probably due to copyrights and liability) but he'd offer the image upon > request. > > I thought Curtis on the vintage-computer forums had also begun creating > cp/m images after Don's collection was deemed "lost". I don't recall if he > was in touch with the family as well. > > These are just my passer by views though. I'm sure others here knew him > better than my speculations. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 13:58:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:58:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: More about Don Maslin? In-Reply-To: <1708192087-1353178669-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-793645646-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1708192087-1353178669-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-793645646-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20121117111757.V60884@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > As you heard I believe he had one of the > largest/complete collections of cp/m out there. He seemed like the go to > guy if there was an image needed. Not "image". If you needed a boot disk for a machine, he would snail mail one to you. > From what I understand there wasn't an > online archive of it so he just had the collection in some form offline > (probably due to copyrights and liability) TECHNICAL issues. (in addition to copyright and liability) He started collecting [and sharing as needed] boot disks before there WAS an "online". Although most people right now aren't aware that there was such a time period, the internet was a newer development for him. But, he made and put out lists of the most commonly requested boot disks. Think Usenet, etc. Starting such a project NOW would call for a website, with images to download, along with image writing tools and lots of discussion on how to make disks of non-MFM formats using other machines. When he started, NONE of his boot disk collection was "imagable". Quite recently (in the last ~20 years), image programs have become available that can image many, maybe even more than half, but definitely NOT all of his collection. I'm sure that towards the end, in his last decade, that he made use of imaging programs in order to facilitate the distribution when people needed one. > These are just my passer by views though. I'm sure others here knew him > better than my speculations. But, like the proverbial elephant, each of us only knew parts of what he was all about. Even his own wife had no idea what he was up to, and that lack of knowledge may well be responsible for the unavailability of the real collection. I sent him a few disk now and then, and had him listed with the executioner of my estate as the recipient for my entire collection of sample disks. I haven't done paperwork yet, but I notified her that Al is to be the new recipient. His best known interest was collecting boot disks - my collection is sample disks for analyzing the disk and file formats with only a small portion of them being bootable. Numerous times, we answered questions for each other. One time, about 10 or 15 years ago, he and Sellam contacted me for help figuring out a bizarre NEC disk. I suggested sectors to look at, and they sent me dumps of those sectors. It turned out to be a "Stand-alone BASIC" disk format on an 8" disk, like their "NEC-DOS" on some of their 8000 series 5.25 (also Russian Oki, and very loosely similar to Coco). Once we found the DIRectory near the middle of the disk, I deciphered the directory entries and told them which blocks/tracks/sectors of the disk to copy to get the individual files. It was less than a full day of work, and as far as I know, no money changed hands. That was the kind of guy that he was. Money might be necessary for expenses (think of the snail mail costs of mailing a diskette thousands of times, starting when a diskette was as expensive as lunch!), but that was not his motivation. He seemed to enjoy the challenge of anything new, and liked to help people. The world is a sadder, more frustrating place without him. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 17 14:44:33 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:44:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Jay West wrote: >> 1) Due to the generosity of Richard (with myself making up the balance >> of the cost), > > THANK YOU, BOTH! > I'll second this. Jay is also host to retroarchive.org. > >> that we'll host any service for free that is vintage computer related >> - not just websites. We'll host mailing lists, ftp or rsyncd >> repositories, whatever you wish. > > THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER Ask Cameron. He'll get you straightened out. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From reiche at ls-al.eu Sat Nov 17 14:58:56 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:58:56 +0100 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> John Many Jars wrote: > > On 17 November 2012 17:53, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER > > Been thinking about writing a Gopher server. How hard can it be? > Haven't had the time I wanted and needed for a C only gopher server, but I had already run up against a wall on the 'Gopher "Index Format" Standard'. There seem to be some additions, which are actually pretty handy which aren't described that good at all (or at least in the documentation/weblinks I've found). All the old ones do compile somewhat, if you can find the sources, but I simply don't want to run it in Python or the like. Anyone else here want to maybe co-write, and subsequently run, a gopherd in C? re, reiche From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 15:08:56 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:08:56 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On 17 November 2012 20:58, Sander Reiche wrote: > > Haven't had the time I wanted and needed for a C only gopher server, but I had > already run up against a wall on the 'Gopher "Index Format" Standard'. There > seem to be some additions, which are actually pretty handy which aren't > described that good at all (or at least in the documentation/weblinks I've > found). All the old ones do compile somewhat, if you can find the sources, but > I simply don't want to run it in Python or the like. > > Anyone else here want to maybe co-write, and subsequently run, a gopherd in C? I was thinking in Ruby. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From poc at pocnet.net Sat Nov 17 15:25:54 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:25:54 +0100 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Am 17.11.2012 um 20:14 schrieb John Many Jars: >> THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER > Been thinking about writing a Gopher server. How hard can it be? Why reinvent the Wheel? http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/1/software/gophernicus/server/ Also available as Debian Package - very easy to set up! :wq! PoC From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Nov 17 15:29:46 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:29:46 +1300 Subject: More about Don Maslin? In-Reply-To: <20121117111757.V60884@shell.lmi.net> References: <1708192087-1353178669-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-793645646-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121117111757.V60884@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Thanks for that elaboration on Don's service to the community. I didn't realise the collection was an "offline" one. From the snippets of information I picked up when I started to explore CP/M I'd always assumed it was an on-line collection that had been lost when the site disappeared. Obviously that was not the case (except for the lost bit). Terry (Tez) On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > > As you heard I believe he had one of the > > largest/complete collections of cp/m out there. He seemed like the go to > > guy if there was an image needed. > Not "image". If you needed a boot disk for a machine, he would snail mail > one to you. > > From what I understand there wasn't an > > online archive of it so he just had the collection in some form offline > > (probably due to copyrights and liability) > > TECHNICAL issues. (in addition to copyright and liability) > > He started collecting [and sharing as needed] boot disks before there WAS > an "online". > Although most people right now aren't aware that there was such a time > period, the internet was a newer development for him. But, he made and > put out lists of the most commonly requested boot disks. Think Usenet, > etc. > Starting such a project NOW would call for a website, with images to > download, along with image writing tools and lots of discussion on how to > make disks of non-MFM formats using other machines. > > When he started, NONE of his boot disk collection was "imagable". > Quite recently (in the last ~20 years), image programs have become > available that can image many, maybe even more than half, but definitely > NOT all of his collection. > I'm sure that towards the end, in his last decade, that he made use of > imaging programs in order to facilitate the distribution when people > needed one. > > > These are just my passer by views though. I'm sure others here knew him > > better than my speculations. > > But, like the proverbial elephant, each of us only knew parts of what he > was all about. Even his own wife had no idea what he was up to, and that > lack of knowledge may well be responsible for the unavailability of the > real collection. > > I sent him a few disk now and then, and had him listed with the > executioner of my estate as the recipient for my entire collection > of sample disks. I haven't done paperwork yet, but I notified her > that Al is to be the new recipient. His best known interest was > collecting boot disks - my collection is sample disks for analyzing > the disk and file formats with only a small portion of them being > bootable. > > Numerous times, we answered questions for each other. > > One time, about 10 or 15 years ago, he and Sellam contacted me for help > figuring out a bizarre NEC disk. I suggested sectors to look at, and they > sent me dumps of those sectors. It turned out to be a "Stand-alone BASIC" > disk format on an 8" disk, like their "NEC-DOS" on some of their 8000 > series 5.25 (also Russian Oki, and very loosely similar to Coco). Once we > found the DIRectory near the middle of the disk, I deciphered the > directory entries and told them which blocks/tracks/sectors of the disk to > copy to get the individual files. It was less than a full day of work, and > as far as I know, no money changed hands. > > That was the kind of guy that he was. Money might be necessary for > expenses (think of the snail mail costs of mailing a diskette thousands of > times, starting when a diskette was as expensive as lunch!), but that was > not his motivation. He seemed to enjoy the challenge of anything new, and > liked to help people. > > > The world is a sadder, more frustrating place without him. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 15:32:32 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:32:32 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 17 November 2012 21:25, Schindler Patrik wrote: > Why reinvent the Wheel? > > http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/1/software/gophernicus/server/ > > Also available as Debian Package - very easy to set up! Hahaha. As my wife would say: "Why collect all that junk" "Have you got more computer junk in the loft?" (She never goes up there) "If you give my husband any more junk. I'll rectally insert it in you." Why go to the moon? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 16:02:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:02:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121117135538.V60884@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > Why go to the moon? "Because nobody has ever been there!" Because area 51 is too full up with spaceship stuff, and the soundstage in Langley? closed down, so there isn't a very convenient place to film another fake landing. So, therefore, it might be easier to just go there. Could probably finance it by bringing stuff back to sell on eBay. . . . how much are used Hasselblads worth? . . . how much for a keychain silver plated with silver that was taken to space and back? . . . small sealable containers to hold "real MOON vacuum!" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 16:13:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:13:38 -0500 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2012 04:32 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > Hahaha. As my wife would say: > > "Why collect all that junk" > > "Have you got more computer junk in the loft?" (She never goes up there) > > "If you give my husband any more junk. I'll rectally insert it in you." > > Why go to the moon? I won't beat around the bush this time. It's DIVORCE TIME. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From reiche at ls-al.eu Sat Nov 17 16:41:56 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:56 +0100 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201211172241.qAHMfuSj007081@ls-al.eu> Schindler Patrik wrote: > > Why reinvent the Wheel? > > http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/1/software/gophernicus/server/ > That does look very tidy! re, reiche From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Nov 17 16:42:45 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:42:45 -0800 Subject: Unusual PC hardware and EPROMS for sale In-Reply-To: <50A41CFC.5050806@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Sorry about not getting back, Your message was lost in the noise. The current bidder on the elevator card is Clem Maloney in Vic Aus. I think he's worried about not being able to find any software or drivers. I haven't been able to locate anything here, or on the net. The 020 board was purchased by a list member a month ago, He was going to play with it. I have not heard back on his success. Do you have a DN 3XXX? Interesting. I started my career at a company that was in direct competition with Apollo/Mentor, That being Metheus in the CAD / CAE workstation arena. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unusual PC hardware and EPROMS for sale I have some interest in the PC Elevator card, and may have some Apollo software for it lying around on floppy disk, and might also have a manual. (When I worked at Wisconsin DOT we had some of these in DN3000 and DN3500 machines). On 10/5/2012 6:15 PM, jim davis wrote: > I'm cleaning up and have items that may interest some list members. > > Central point software transcopy deluxe board - $30.00 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=142538&img=copy2.jpg > 100+ AM27C2048 16X128K EPROM 40 pin package NOS - $30/OBO > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=147940&img=eproms.jpg > ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $50 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg > ISA Definicon 68020 coprocessor - $50 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148129&img=68020-large.jpg > > + actual shipping - Paypal friends option. > > The 2 co-processors were purchased for work in the early 90's. > No software located yet. > Current condition unknown, stored in anti-static bag since 1992. > > Thanks, > Jim. > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 17 16:45:51 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: from Schindler Patrik at "Nov 17, 12 10:25:54 pm" Message-ID: <201211172245.qAHMjpsa29622508@floodgap.com> > > > THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER > > Been thinking about writing a Gopher server. How hard can it be? > > Why reinvent the Wheel? > > http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/1/software/gophernicus/server/ > > Also available as Debian Package - very easy to set up! Gophernicus is a very nice server. If you want something simpler, I still offer Bucktooth (Perl/inetd). Pythonistas may like Pygopherd. Then send me the hostname, and I'll make sure Veronica-2 indexes it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all? -- F.T. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 16:53:28 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:53:28 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 2:23 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: >> On 17/11/12 6:27 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> Interesting question: Would google have happened if Altavista wherent >>> ruined? >> >> Yes, because Google made the paradigmatic leap (MapReduce) that all its >> competitors [almost inexplicably] failed to make. > > For me it was PageRank that made all the difference. I remember when Yes, you are quite right, but you need the endlessly scalable and fault-tolerant architecture as well. So you could say two paradigm shifts were involved. No wonder Google won. :) > searching on the Internet meant using Archie or Veronica to find > interesting files on public FTP servers. When I created my first web > site ("Mosaic page") in 1994, you were supposed to send an email to UIUC > so they could update their page listing all the home pages in the world. > > By the time Altavista came along, the web had grown enough that indexing > it all on a single workstation was a great demo of what the Alpha could > do and it was what DEC did to impress many pontential buyers. It soon > evolved into a separate business. But as the web continued to grow, it > became less and less useful as it became common for the link you were > looking for to be on page 8 or later of the results. > > In 1998 I switched to Google because PageRank meant I rarely had to look > beyond the top half of the first page of the results to see what I was Yes, you and millions of others :D Once you got used to the idea of the page you want being #1 most of the time (as is still the case IME), then one quickly forgot about the other engines... --Toby > looking for. The "I'm feeling lucky" button was meant to show off this > feature. > > -- Jecel > > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 16:53:41 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:53:41 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 17 November 2012 22:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > I won't beat around the bush this time. > > It's DIVORCE TIME. > It's cool... really. (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 16:55:57 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:55:57 -0500 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 3:58 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: > John Many Jars wrote: >> >> On 17 November 2012 17:53, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER >> >> Been thinking about writing a Gopher server. How hard can it be? >> > Haven't had the time I wanted and needed for a C only gopher server, but I had > already run up against a wall on the 'Gopher "Index Format" Standard'. ... > > Anyone else here want to maybe co-write, and subsequently run, a gopherd in C? That's masochistic. Modern languages have network libraries too, you know. :) --Toby > > re, > > reiche > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 17 17:06:44 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:06:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <201211172245.qAHMjpsa29622508@floodgap.com> References: <201211172245.qAHMjpsa29622508@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> THAT makes me wish that I knew how to set up a GOPHER >>> Been thinking about writing a Gopher server. How hard can it be? >> >> Why reinvent the Wheel? >> >> http://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gophernicus.org/1/software/gophernicus/server/ >> >> Also available as Debian Package - very easy to set up! > > Gophernicus is a very nice server. If you want something simpler, I still > offer Bucktooth (Perl/inetd). Pythonistas may like Pygopherd. Then send me > the hostname, and I'll make sure Veronica-2 indexes it. Pygopherd is nice, but it seems to enjoy spawning zombies. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 17:20:54 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:20:54 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 17 November 2012 22:55, Toby Thain wrote: > That's masochistic. Modern languages have network libraries too, you know. > :) That's why I said Ruby. Ruby is written in C, which is what C is for... (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 17:21:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:21:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121117151522.L60884@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > Yes, you are quite right, but you need the endlessly scalable and > fault-tolerant architecture as well. So you could say two paradigm > shifts were involved. No wonder Google won. :) Google has branched out into a lot of other Information fields. I remember when they were frantically building a "war chest" in expectation of MAJOR confrontations with Microsoft. > Once you got used to the idea of the page you want being #1 most of the > time (as is still the case IME), then one quickly forgot about the other > engines... During their early days, Google did a surprisingly large amount of their relevance ranking MANUALLY! Then they apparently expanded into letting more of their ranking be alfgorithmically done with Saltonin vector Space and cosine measures. I wonder what they are doing now. Have they published any of their algorithms in any of the Information Science journals? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 17 17:30:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:30:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Nov 17, 12 03:06:44 pm" Message-ID: <201211172330.qAHNURtM30277862@floodgap.com> > > Gophernicus is a very nice server. If you want something simpler, I still > > offer Bucktooth (Perl/inetd). Pythonistas may like Pygopherd. Then send me > > the hostname, and I'll make sure Veronica-2 indexes it. > > Pygopherd is nice, but it seems to enjoy spawning zombies. Sounds like someone isn't reaping their children. (Ewww.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 17:31:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:31:06 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2012, at 17:53, Toby Thain wrote: > On 17/11/12 2:23 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >> >> For me it was PageRank that made all the difference. I remember when > > Yes, you are quite right, but you need the endlessly scalable and fault-tolerant architecture as well. So you could say two paradigm shifts were involved. No wonder Google won. :) Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than VMS? Because those may be fightin' words around here. :-) Of course, I don't recall whether AltaVista ran on VMS or not. - Dave From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 18:06:05 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:06:05 +1100 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM, David Riley wrote: > Of course, I don't recall whether AltaVista ran on VMS or > not. > According to this thread: DEC's AltaVista was on Tru64 UNIX due to lack of 64-bit support in VMS at the time: http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036548.html This post shows the hardware backing AltaVista: http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036587.html From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 18:11:03 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:11:03 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A82797.2070403@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 6:31 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 17, 2012, at 17:53, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 17/11/12 2:23 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >>> >>> For me it was PageRank that made all the difference. I remember when >> >> Yes, you are quite right, but you need the endlessly scalable and fault-tolerant architecture as well. So you could say two paradigm shifts were involved. No wonder Google won. :) > > Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than > VMS? Because those may be fightin' words around here. :-) No, I am referring to their software architecture, not the operating system. --Toby > > Of course, I don't recall whether AltaVista ran on VMS or > not. > > > - Dave > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 18:15:46 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:15:46 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121117151522.L60884@shell.lmi.net> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117151522.L60884@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A828B2.5040107@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 6:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> Yes, you are quite right, but you need the endlessly scalable and >> fault-tolerant architecture as well. So you could say two paradigm >> shifts were involved. No wonder Google won. :) > > Google has branched out into a lot of other Information fields. > I remember when they were frantically building a "war chest" in > expectation of MAJOR confrontations with Microsoft. A lot of their endeavours build on the same infrastructure. BigTable, BigFS, etc. > >> Once you got used to the idea of the page you want being #1 most of the >> time (as is still the case IME), then one quickly forgot about the other >> engines... > > During their early days, Google did a surprisingly large amount of their > relevance ranking MANUALLY! Then they apparently expanded into letting > more of their ranking be alfgorithmically done with Saltonin vector Space > and cosine measures. I wonder what they are doing now. Have they > published any of their algorithms in any of the Information Science > journals? Yes, various aspects are published. * http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html * There is also a paper, "Page Rank Algorithm" from Dept of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, but ironically Google's search results make it impossible for me to copy a sane link, and when I click it, I don't get a copyable link in the browser either. --Toby > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 18:18:36 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:18:36 -0500 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 6:20 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > On 17 November 2012 22:55, Toby Thain wrote: > >> That's masochistic. Modern languages have network libraries too, you know. >> :) > > That's why I said Ruby. Ruby is written in C, which is what C is for... (; > > Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. --Toby From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 18:32:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:32:06 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A828B2.5040107@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117151522.L60884@shell.lmi.net> <50A828B2.5040107@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50A82C86.8010104@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2012 07:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > * There is also a paper, "Page Rank Algorithm" from Dept of Mathematics > and Statistics, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, but ironically > Google's search results make it impossible for me to copy a sane link, > and when I click it, I don't get a copyable link in the browser either. Cleaning up Google's result links is easy...Install the GreaseMoneky plugin, and within that, install the "Straight Google" script. It filters the results on the fly, no visible difference, but the URLs are put back the way they belong, instead of being put through Google's (probably highly profitable) statistics-gathering redirectors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 18:36:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:36:12 -0500 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50A82D7C.2080506@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2012 05:53 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> I won't beat around the bush this time. >> >> It's DIVORCE TIME. > > It's cool... really. (; Yah. We can tell. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 18:43:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:43:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121117164159.D78759@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. While it is a common exercise in "proofing" a compiler, it would have made sense only if that particular language was best suited for compiler writing, rather than any other language specialty :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 18:47:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:47:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A828B2.5040107@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117151522.L60884@shell.lmi.net> <50A828B2.5040107@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121117164435.P78759@shell.lmi.net> > > published any of their algorithms in any of the Information Science > > journals? On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > Yes, various aspects are published. > * http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html > * There is also a paper, "Page Rank Algorithm" from Dept of > Mathematics and Statistics, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, but Thank you! It's a dark and dreary day; those will be a welcome diversion > ironically Google's search results make it impossible for me to copy a > sane link, and when I click it, I don't get a copyable link in the > browser either. and not even a "send this to others" link From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 18:52:56 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:52:56 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 18 November 2012 00:18, Toby Thain wrote: > Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. I hear you, but in this case it isn't... it also isn't compiled, but interpreted. It's a "scripting language". -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Nov 17 18:55:41 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:55:41 +0000 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A82D7C.2080506@neurotica.com> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> <50A82D7C.2080506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 18 November 2012 00:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yah. We can tell. ;) After the kids have left home, she wants to build a straw bail house at a forestry project we know in Scotland. Life with the Scottish hippies. I've already tested it, and I can get 3G if I run a dongle up a tree. They might even have 4G by then. I'll need some solar panels, batteries, a wind generator, etc. I can run the BBS from the woods, when I have enough power. Maybe that will be divorce time... we'll see. (: -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 19:07:22 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:07:22 -0500 Subject: Bootstrapped compilers - Re: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <20121117164159.D78759@shell.lmi.net> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117164159.D78759@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50A834CA.9000804@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 7:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. > > While it is a common exercise in "proofing" a compiler, > it would have made sense only if that particular language was best > suited for compiler writing, rather than any other language specialty :-) > Nonetheless, it is the usual route. Of course the languages I am referring to are much more congenial to writing compilers than C. (A notable example would be Haskell, but there are many others.) --T > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 19:08:30 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:08:30 -0500 Subject: Greasemonkey cleans up Google search URLs - Re: Google v AltaVista In-Reply-To: <50A82C86.8010104@neurotica.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117151522.L60884@shell.lmi.net> <50A828B2.5040107@telegraphics.com.au> <50A82C86.8010104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50A8350E.5070405@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 7:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/17/2012 07:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> * There is also a paper, "Page Rank Algorithm" from Dept of Mathematics >> and Statistics, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, but ironically >> Google's search results make it impossible for me to copy a sane link, >> and when I click it, I don't get a copyable link in the browser either. > > Cleaning up Google's result links is easy...Install the GreaseMoneky > plugin, and within that, install the "Straight Google" script. It > filters the results on the fly, no visible difference, but the URLs are > put back the way they belong, instead of being put through Google's > (probably highly profitable) statistics-gathering redirectors. Great tip, thankyou. Firefox isn't my usual browser, though. :/ --Toby > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 19:09:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:09:10 -0500 Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> <50A82D7C.2080506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50A83536.1010709@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2012 07:55 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> Yah. We can tell. ;) > > After the kids have left home, she wants to build a straw bail house > at a forestry project we know in Scotland. Life with the Scottish > hippies. > > I've already tested it, and I can get 3G if I run a dongle up a tree. > They might even have 4G by then. I'll need some solar panels, > batteries, a wind generator, etc. I can run the BBS from the woods, > when I have enough power. That...almost sounds like fun! > Maybe that will be divorce time... we'll see. (: Good luck. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 19:14:34 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:14:34 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50A8367A.7000501@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 7:06 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> Of course, I don't recall whether AltaVista ran on VMS or >> not. >> > > According to this thread: DEC's AltaVista was on Tru64 UNIX due to lack of > 64-bit support in VMS at the time: > > http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036548.html > > This post shows the hardware backing AltaVista: > > http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036587.html > I didn't see a date on that post, but some cross-referencing puts that hardware configuration circa 1996-1997? Also, they offered an "Appliance" version: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Powerful+AltaVista+Search+Technology+Extends+Onsite+Computing+to...-a018685966 --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 17 19:17:21 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:17:21 -0500 Subject: Bootstrapped compilers - Re: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50A83721.8080107@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 7:52 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > On 18 November 2012 00:18, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. > > I hear you, but in this case it isn't... it also isn't compiled, but > interpreted. It's a "scripting language". Well, yes, the use case for C is a bit stronger for a bytecode interpreter. But not so much for the compiler to bytecode - is Ruby's actually written in C? --Toby From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 17 19:31:38 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:31:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25244247@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50A64927.704@bitsavers.org> <50A666F9.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/12 6:09 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/16/12 3:14 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> >>> I fully expect that his archive is a large collection of 8", 5.25", >>> and 3.5" floppies. >> >> In the system.txt file, there are quite a few ".zip" files listed. >> >> Here is a picture of the garage > > I forgot, ccomp eats attachements > Pic at http://aek.chadless.com/ Is that an Amdek Color monitor in the background? Those thing seem to work practically forever (I have one in use right now). From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 19:49:30 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:49:30 -0800 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A8367A.7000501@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <50A8367A.7000501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50A83EAA.4060503@gmail.com> On 11/17/2012 5:14 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 17/11/12 7:06 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM, David Riley >> wrote: >> >>> Of course, I don't recall whether AltaVista ran on VMS or >>> not. >>> >> >> According to this thread: DEC's AltaVista was on Tru64 UNIX due to >> lack of >> 64-bit support in VMS at the time: >> >> http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036548.html >> >> This post shows the hardware backing AltaVista: >> >> http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036587.html >> > > > I didn't see a date on that post, but some cross-referencing puts that > hardware configuration circa 1996-1997? > > Also, they offered an "Appliance" version: > > http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Powerful+AltaVista+Search+Technology+Extends+Onsite+Computing+to...-a018685966 > > > --Toby > I am coming to this thread late so, I apologize if already mentioned. I had a couple of the AltaVista servers. They were given away or sold cheap in the San Francisco area. All the ones I had, or ran into, were DS20E with the faceplate removed. One of mine was the development's teams test server. Had the whole source tree and build environment for their engine. Well did before the disk died. They were all Tru64. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 17 20:05:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/17/2012 04:32 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> Hahaha. As my wife would say: >> >> "Why collect all that junk" >> >> "Have you got more computer junk in the loft?" (She never goes up there) >> >> "If you give my husband any more junk. I'll rectally insert it in you." >> >> Why go to the moon? > > I won't beat around the bush this time. > > It's DIVORCE TIME. > Indeed. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 20:18:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:18:17 -0800 Subject: Interesting IEEE "Computer" article on IAS and von Neumann Message-ID: <50A84569.5030504@sydex.com> Since I didn't see a message to this effect and because I'm very slow on catching up with my reading, there's an interesting article in the November, 2012 issue of IEEE "Computer" titled "Debugging on the Shoulders of Giants: Von Neumann's Programs 65 Years Later" by Barry Fagin and Dale Skrein. Briefly, the two took von Newumann's programming problems described in the 1947 "Planning and Coding Problems for an Electronic Instrument" by Goldstine and von Neumann and ran them on an IAS emulator. Not surprisingly, they discovered a few errors. I say, "not surprisingly" because at the time, the IAS computer wasn't operational. It makes a nice read for a rainy afternoon. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 20:22:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:22:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A83536.1010709@neurotica.com> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <50A80C12.40707@neurotica.com> <50A82D7C.2080506@neurotica.com> <50A83536.1010709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121117181751.B78759@shell.lmi.net> > > After the kids have left home, she wants to build a straw bail house > > at a forestry project we know in Scotland. Life with the Scottish > > hippies. > > I've already tested it, and I can get 3G if I run a dongle up a tree. > > They might even have 4G by then. I'll need some solar panels, > > batteries, a wind generator, etc. I can run the BBS from the woods, > > when I have enough power. OB_Antikythera: Traces of metals have been found in greece; they obviously had an early start on metallurgy. Traces of copper have been found in Italy; they might even have had an early start on wiring. No metal traces were found in Scotland; they obviously went straight to wireless. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 11:41:53 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:41:53 +0000 Subject: My Exidy Sorcerer on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16 November 2012 07:41, Terry Stewart wrote: > Sending to this list in case some are interested. > http://youtu.be/f-neUEHhtCs I tweeted this, and a friend and colleague of mine responded: > That looks suspiciously like the Sargon Chess that I implemented for the Sorcerer. > My company was the first to import those to the UK! I don't know if it's the same company, but his company is: http://www.chartersoftware.co.uk/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Nov 18 11:58:21 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:58:21 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1664@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:54 PM > The 1400--one of the more awful, but cheap, terminals in the terminal > universe. For some odd reason, it used tilde (hex 7E) as the escape > lead-in character. Remember that in the days of Teletype, ALTMODE was character code 175 or 176 (Umm, 7D or 7E for the octally challenged). Hazeltine was using the ALTMODE character to introduce command codes, as intended. Only later was ALTMODE redefined to be 033 (1B) = ESCAPE. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 18 11:59:42 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:59:42 -0800 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A83EAA.4060503@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <50A8367A.7000501@telegraphics.com.au> <50A83EAA.4060503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9E4D7CA0-487B-4B27-9031-63A2F7C628BF@shiresoft.com> On Nov 17, 2012, at 5:49 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/17/2012 5:14 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 17/11/12 7:06 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: >>> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> >>>> Of course, I don't recall whether AltaVista ran on VMS or >>>> not. >>>> >>> >>> According to this thread: DEC's AltaVista was on Tru64 UNIX due to lack of >>> 64-bit support in VMS at the time: >>> >>> http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036548.html >>> >>> This post shows the hardware backing AltaVista: >>> >>> http://rbnsn.com/pipermail/info-vax_rbnsn.com/2011-October/036587.html >>> >> >> >> I didn't see a date on that post, but some cross-referencing puts that hardware configuration circa 1996-1997? >> >> Also, they offered an "Appliance" version: >> >> http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Powerful+AltaVista+Search+Technology+Extends+Onsite+Computing+to...-a018685966 >> >> --Toby >> > > I am coming to this thread late so, I apologize if already mentioned. I had a couple of the AltaVista servers. They were given away or sold cheap in the San Francisco area. All the ones I had, or ran into, were DS20E with the faceplate removed. One of mine was the development's teams test server. Had the whole source tree and build environment for their engine. Well did before the disk died. They were all Tru64. > Yes, they were stored my storage units. I got tired of having them and asked if they could be disposed of. Along with a large number of DS20's there were also a fair number of DS10s. In addition to the CPUs there were several TBs in disk arrays (built using 4GB, 9GB and 18GB drives?it was a lot of drives). TTFN - Guy From ed.spittles at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 13:43:12 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:43:12 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 November 2012 19:14, Ed Spittles wrote: > On 16/11/2012 08:13, ben wrote: >> On 11/16/2012 12:50 AM, Ed Spittles wrote: >>>> [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer >>>> built from reject germanium transistors] >>> >>> Aha: here's an online version of a pamphlet reprinting that article >>> series, which gives credit to Brian Crank: >>> http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/Manuals/wirelessworldcomputer.pdf >>> >> How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium >> transistors. :) >> Ben. >> > There was a dire shortage of the very rare round tuits during that > period of my life, plus no access to a decent scanner. I actually wrote > my first program when I was 17 or 18 years old ( so 1971/2) on a > germanium transistor computer that had been built by my school derived > from the wireless world design. I was taught by the school Music > Teacher Hector Parr (http://www.hectorparr.freeuk.com/) who learnt to > program so he could calculate tables of Organ Pipe lengths to assist in > re-building the School pipe organ. > > Dave Wade G4UGM Fantastic! I got in touch with Hector Parr, and he directed me to a memoir he's written, and I now have a story: One Alan Wilkinson wrote the book 'Computer Models' (a copy is now on its way to me) which is most likely inspired by Brian Crank's article series. Alan was teaching at Spennymoor Grammar School, and Hector was teaching at the nearby Darlington Grammar School. Hector read Alan's book and proceeded to get the Maths department and pupils to finance and build a machine called DENICE, designed from scratch but with inspiration from the book. Alan moved on to Teesside Polytechnic where he looked after an IBM 1620, which was made available to schoolchildren. Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School, where he was photographed in 1978 with a different computer: http://ww2.durham.gov.uk/dre/pgDre.aspx?ID=DRE10345&PIC=Y His memoir can be bought at http://www.lulu.com/shop/hector-c-parr/music-maths-and-machines/paperback/product-1021349.html - there's a copy of this too on its way to me. I now discover that Alan's book has been referenced at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_computer#cite_note-15 since Nov 2010. (As for the reported cost of ?50 in the late 60's, I'm told a weekly shop for a couple would be ?2 and a pint of rough cider would be 1/9d (that is, 21 old pence, which were 240 to the pound.) According to http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/, the project would cost ?750 today, although those anecdotal prices suggest rather more.) I wrote up some notes on the WW machine here: http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2333 Cheers Ed From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 07:51:37 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:51:37 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 111, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" , > Cc: > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:21:14 -0000 > Subject: RE: cctech Digest, Vol 111, Issue 27 > Michael Thompson [michael.99.thompson at gmail.com]: >> I was part of the team that created the Futurebus+ >> specification. My name is in the front with the other authors. > > Indeed it is. After digging up P896.1 I went and checked Digital Tech > Journal V5 N1, > which includes an article about the DECnis and that does indeed use FB+. > > I've found one Cobra (DEC 4000) document that indicates it uses FB+ too. DEC also published the "Futurebus+ Handbook for Digital Systems", ec-h1363-41. Google finds Postscript versions. I have a printed copy and could send it to Al for scanning. -- Michael Thompson From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Nov 17 14:14:06 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:14:06 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3EFA701F70864B1DB09381D000772356@OptiplexGX620> Found this bit of info years ago, Altavista hardware. ---------------------------------------------------------- Newsgroups: alt.fan.cecil-adams From: ehr... at his.com (Edward Rice) Date: 1997/02/10 Subject: Re: Chinese restaurants; Alta Vista The Hardware Behind AltaVista AltaVista: AlphaStation 500, 256 MB memory, 6GB disk. AlphaStation 500's handle all external traffic to the site. They run a custom multi-threaded Web server which sends queries to the Web indexer and News indexer. Web Indexer: AlphaServer 8400 5/300, 10 processors, 6 GB memory, 210 GB RAID disk. This model is the most powerful computer built by Digital. These servers run the query engine. The Web index is larger than 40 GB, but most requests take less than a second. Scooter: AlphaServer 4100 5/300, 1.5 GB memory, 30 GB RAID disk. The super-spider runs from this machine. It fetches pages from the Web and sends them to Vista, our primary web indexer. Vista: AlphaServer 4100 5/300, 2 processors, 2GB memory, 180GB RAID disk. This machine indexes Scooter output and serves as a central distribution point for new index data. News Indexer: AlphaServer 600 5/333, 896MB memory, 13 GB disk. This machine keeps an up-to-date index of the news spool: since new articles appear and old articles expire all the time, it is in fact quite busy, even though the index it serves is much smaller than the Web index. News Server: AlphaServer 600 5/333, 896MB memory, 24 GB RAID disks. It maintains a current news spool for the News Indexer. It also serves the articles via http to those of you who don't want to know about news servers but want to read news. Those aren't typos, either -- those are machines with many, MANY megabytes of RAM, and they're hooked up to some of the fastest random-access backing store in the world with capacities in the many, many gigabyte range. AltaVista is fast because DEC threw some phenomenally capable resources at the problem. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Snyder Butler, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) > On 11/16/2012 04:06 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> I have a large number of TurboLaser Bus modules here, for >>> AS8000-family machines. I've been unsuccessful in finding one to put >>> them in...I want an 8200 or an 8400, but they seem to have completely >>> disappeared. I haven't seen one on the market for YEARS. I have no >>> idea of what's up with that. >> >> The only TurboLaser I ever saw in the wild was an 8400 being field tested >> at >> ICI Dumfries (Scotland) while I was installing a TruCluster of 4100s. It >> looked very Heath Robinson and the engineer on site swore at it most foul >> because of it's tendency to crash. > > I've never heard of one crashing. Bizarre. > > We had two 8400s (8x 5/300) in the datacenter at a previous job. They > were really quite nice machines. They did a lot of offline processing > for a pre-Google search engine called Altavista. > >> These days I walk past its offspring >> every day, we have several large Alphas in the warehouse at work, the >> biggest being a GS60e which is the direct descendent. > > Very nice! Take them home! > >> I power 'em up from time to time, the noise of that, an AXP7710 and a >> VAX6200 is almost music to my ears :) > > Glorious! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sat Nov 17 19:49:21 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:49:21 +1100 Subject: Bootstrapped compilers - Re: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <50A834CA.9000804@telegraphics.com.au> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117164159.D78759@shell.lmi.net> <50A834CA.9000804@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5E09D224-C971-4463-A933-AE88CD2A38A6@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 18/11/2012, at 12:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 17/11/12 7:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. >> >> While it is a common exercise in "proofing" a compiler, >> it would have made sense only if that particular language was best >> suited for compiler writing, rather than any other language specialty :-) >> > > Nonetheless, it is the usual route. >From the days when I studied and wrote compilers (which very much makes this on-topic :-)) I can recall that the following languages are compiled by compilers written in themselves: BLISS-10 BCPL Pascal c ALGOL-60 (at least one reference implementation) SAIL Other languages were written in something 'more efficient', for example, ALGOL-60 for TOPS-10 is written in MACRO-10 macros which were an attempt to give a high-level structure to a very large MACRO program. There are other languages I studied but can't remember what they're written in - SIMULA-67, SNOBOL, FORTRAN, ALGOL-W, ALGOL-68, Modula-2 - I suspect some of these are written in themselves but I suspect many of them are assembler programs. These days c seems to be the favoured implementation language, hence Ruby, Python, Icon etc are all c programs (although there is a version of Python written in itself). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From francois.dion at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 06:44:53 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 07:44:53 -0500 Subject: icl 1900 emulation Message-ID: Somebody is using the Raspberry Pi to emulate an ICL 1900 mainframe here: http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/CCs/index.html Personally, I'd never heard of this computer... Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 18 14:27:43 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:27:43 -0800 Subject: Bootstrapped compilers - Re: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <5E09D224-C971-4463-A933-AE88CD2A38A6@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117164159.D78759@shell.lmi.net> <50A834CA.9000804@telegraphics.com.au> <5E09D224-C971-4463-A933-AE88CD2A38A6@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 18/11/2012, at 12:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 17/11/12 7:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. >>> >>> While it is a common exercise in "proofing" a compiler, >>> it would have made sense only if that particular language was best >>> suited for compiler writing, rather than any other language specialty :-) >>> >> >> Nonetheless, it is the usual route. > > > From the days when I studied and wrote compilers (which very much makes this on-topic :-)) I can recall that the following languages are compiled by compilers written in themselves: > > BLISS-10 > BCPL > Pascal > c > ALGOL-60 (at least one reference implementation) > SAIL > > Other languages were written in something 'more efficient', for example, ALGOL-60 for TOPS-10 is written in MACRO-10 macros which were an attempt to give a high-level structure to a very large MACRO program. > > There are other languages I studied but can't remember what they're written in - SIMULA-67, SNOBOL, FORTRAN, ALGOL-W, ALGOL-68, Modula-2 - I suspect some of these are written in themselves but I suspect many of them are assembler programs. > > These days c seems to be the favoured implementation language, hence Ruby, Python, Icon etc are all c programs (although there is a version of Python written in itself). > Of course you also have a number of languages that are typically implemented in terms of themselves: L* Forth Lisp TTFN - Guy From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Nov 18 14:31:33 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:31:33 +1300 Subject: Apple ][+ and clones video Message-ID: For those that are interested. I continued making short clips on my collection this weekend. This one was for the Apple II+. There will be no surprises here for members of this group, but some might be interested in the two clones featured towards the end of the video. the URL is http://youtu.be/Tc44R-f07KI Cheers Terry (Tez) From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 15:46:04 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 21:46:04 +0000 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <3EFA701F70864B1DB09381D000772356@OptiplexGX620> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <3EFA701F70864B1DB09381D000772356@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: On 17 November 2012 20:14, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Found this bit of info years ago, Altavista hardware. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Newsgroups: alt.fan.cecil-adams > From: ehr... at his.com (Edward Rice) > Date: 1997/02/10 > Subject: Re: Chinese restaurants; Alta Vista > > The Hardware Behind AltaVista > > AltaVista: AlphaStation 500, 256 MB memory, 6GB disk. > AlphaStation 500's handle all external traffic to the site. > They run a custom multi-threaded Web server which sends > queries to the Web indexer and News indexer. > > Web Indexer: AlphaServer 8400 5/300, 10 processors, 6 GB > memory, 210 GB RAID disk. This model is the most powerful > computer built by Digital. These servers run the query > engine. The Web index is larger than 40 GB, but most > requests take less than a second. > > Scooter: AlphaServer 4100 5/300, 1.5 GB memory, 30 GB RAID > disk. The super-spider runs from this machine. It fetches > pages from the Web and sends them to Vista, our primary web > indexer. > > Vista: AlphaServer 4100 5/300, 2 processors, 2GB memory, > 180GB RAID disk. This machine indexes Scooter output and > serves as a central distribution point for new index data. > > News Indexer: AlphaServer 600 5/333, 896MB memory, 13 GB > disk. This machine keeps an up-to-date index of the news > spool: since new articles appear and old articles expire all > the time, it is in fact quite busy, even though the index it > serves is much smaller than the Web index. > > News Server: AlphaServer 600 5/333, 896MB memory, 24 GB RAID > disks. It maintains a current news spool for the News > Indexer. It also serves the articles via http to those of > you who don't want to know about news servers but want to > read news. > > Those aren't typos, either -- those are machines with many, MANY megabytes > of RAM, and they're hooked up to some of the fastest random-access backing > store in the world with capacities in the many, many gigabyte range. > AltaVista is fast because DEC threw some phenomenally capable resources at > the problem. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dan Snyder > Butler, PA Remarkable specs for 1997. Really extraordinarily high. This must have cost very serious money. No way Altavista ever paid for itself, not by several orders of magnitude. This is why the discovery of an efficient parallelising algorithm - viz, Map/Reduce - was such an extremely big deal for Google. Map/Reduce and PageRank made Brin & Page their tens of billions, and for once, I don't begrudge them it at all. They earned it fair and square through extreme brilliance, I think, unlike Gates or Jobs... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 16:18:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:18:15 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin collection status In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1664@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50A56527.2050507@gmail.com> <50A5779D.6030602@bitsavers.org> <50A5847A.5010803@gmail.com> <50A5AC62.4010307@sydex.com> <50A5B961.2040602@bitsavers.org> <20121115205136.T7662@shell.lmi.net> <50A5CACD.3010609@bitsavers.org> <20121116111243.V22355@shell.lmi.net> <50A6A2F5.5040802@sydex.com> <50A6C4D4.4050509@verizon.net> <50A6D22C.6020204@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1664@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50A95EA7.4070606@sydex.com> On 11/18/2012 09:58 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Remember that in the days of Teletype, ALTMODE was character code 175 or > 176 (Umm, 7D or 7E for the octally challenged). Hazeltine was using the > ALTMODE character to introduce command codes, as intended. Only later > was ALTMODE redefined to be 033 (1B) = ESCAPE. Sure, but this was a terminal that was brought out in 1977. X3.4-1968 has 7/14 as a tilde character. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 16:18:56 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:18:56 -0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7F1809A3EDDF46DA9DD7443605CCA9DE@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Spittles > Sent: 18 November 2012 19:43 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: discrete transistor computer > > > On 18 November 2012 19:14, Ed Spittles wrote: > > On 16/11/2012 08:13, ben wrote: > >> On 11/16/2012 12:50 AM, Ed Spittles wrote: > >>>> [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer > >>>> built from reject germanium transistors] > >>> > >>> Aha: here's an online version of a pamphlet reprinting > that article > >>> series, which gives credit to Brian Crank: > >>> > http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/Manuals/wirelessworldcomputer. > >>> pdf > >>> > >> How come this was never posted when you still could get germanium > >> transistors. :) Ben. > >> > > There was a dire shortage of the very rare round tuits during that > > period of my life, plus no access to a decent scanner. I actually > > wrote my first program when I was 17 or 18 years old ( so > 1971/2) on a > > germanium transistor computer that had been built by my > school derived > > from the wireless world design. I was taught by the school Music > > Teacher Hector Parr (http://www.hectorparr.freeuk.com/) who > learnt to > > program so he could calculate tables of Organ Pipe lengths > to assist > > in re-building the School pipe organ. > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Fantastic! I got in touch with Hector Parr, and he directed > me to a memoir he's written, and I now have a story: Hector has also been helpful when I spoke to him, but sadly he had no cards or listing from the 1620 days... > One Alan > Wilkinson wrote the book 'Computer Models' (a copy is now on > its way to me) which is most likely inspired by Brian Crank's > article series. Alan was teaching at Spennymoor Grammar > School, and Hector was teaching at the nearby Darlington > Grammar School. This is now the 6th form college, and was where I met Hector > Hector read Alan's book and proceeded to get > the Maths department and pupils to finance and build a > machine called DENICE, designed from scratch but with > inspiration from the book. > > Alan moved on to Teesside Polytechnic where he looked after > an IBM 1620, which was made available to schoolchildren. > This is the one I used > Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School, where he was > photographed in 1978 with a different computer: > http://ww2.durham.gov.uk/dre/pgDre.aspx?ID=DRE10345&PIC=Y > His memoir can be bought at > http://www.lulu.com/shop/hector-c-parr/music-maths-and-machines/paperback/pr oduct-1021349.html > - there's a copy of this too on its way to me. > > I now discover that Alan's book has been referenced at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_computer#cite_note-15 > since Nov 2010. > > (As for the reported cost of ?50 in the late 60's, I'm told a weekly shop for a couple would be ?2 and a pint of rough > > cider would be 1/9d (that is, 21 old pence, which were 240 to the pound.) According to > http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/, > the project would cost ?750 today, although those anecdotal prices suggest rather more.) I think ?750 is probably about right, but comparisions are difficult as prices havn't increased uniformly. My dad earned around ?22 a week. In my first part time job at this time I earned 10/- (50p or ?0.50 in current money) for 4 hours work at our local Woolworths. I seem to recall paying ?25.00 for a second hand motor bike around that time. I also remember getting over time for swapping out around 100 tills that did the old style ?:s:D for new ones that did ?/P one Saturday night > >I wrote up some notes on the WW machine here: http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2333 > >Cheers >Ed If you find any mreo info about Denice I would be really interested... Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 16:22:24 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:22:24 -0000 Subject: icl 1900 emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Francois Dion > Sent: 18 November 2012 12:45 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: icl 1900 emulation > > > Somebody is using the Raspberry Pi to emulate an ICL 1900 > mainframe here: > > http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/CCs/index.html > > Personally, I'd never heard of this computer... > > http://www.icl1900.co.uk/ Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > Fran?ois > > -- > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 18 16:27:38 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:27:38 -0500 Subject: Bootstrapped compilers - Re: classiccmp status In-Reply-To: <5E09D224-C971-4463-A933-AE88CD2A38A6@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <21776053-C6E2-4BFD-A9CB-D4AEFD2F22CB@classiccmp.org> <20121117095121.W58139@shell.lmi.net> <201211172058.qAHKwujm025004@ls-al.eu> <50A815FD.8070904@telegraphics.com.au> <50A8295C.8050403@telegraphics.com.au> <20121117164159.D78759@shell.lmi.net> <50A834CA.9000804@telegraphics.com.au> <5E09D224-C971-4463-A933-AE88CD2A38A6@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <50A960DA.1000109@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/12 8:49 PM, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 18/11/2012, at 12:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 17/11/12 7:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Most modern language compilers are written in their own language, actually. >>> >>> While it is a common exercise in "proofing" a compiler, >>> it would have made sense only if that particular language was best >>> suited for compiler writing, rather than any other language specialty :-) >>> >> >> Nonetheless, it is the usual route. > > >> From the days when I studied and wrote compilers (which very much makes this on-topic :-)) I can recall that the following languages are compiled by compilers written in themselves: > > BLISS-10 > BCPL > Pascal > c > ALGOL-60 (at least one reference implementation) > SAIL > > Other languages were written in something 'more efficient', for example, ALGOL-60 for TOPS-10 is written in MACRO-10 macros which were an attempt to give a high-level structure to a very large MACRO program. > > There are other languages I studied but can't remember what they're written in - SIMULA-67, SNOBOL, FORTRAN, ALGOL-W, ALGOL-68, Modula-2 - I suspect some of these are written in themselves but I suspect many of them are assembler programs. > > These days c seems to be the favoured implementation language, hence Ruby, Python, Icon etc are all c programs (although there is a version of Python written in itself). > C is more common for *interpreters*, but adding to your list above - modern *compilers* in their own language include Java, Haskell (GHC & Hugs), Scala, Python & PyPy, Mercury, Schemes, many Lisps, Factor, Standard ML, Mythryl, Perl 6 (& NQP), Rust, many Forths, clang, D, and many others. As I say: The normal route, a not insignificant reason being that C is pointlessly painful to write high level code in. --Toby > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > > > From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Nov 18 18:06:33 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 01:06:33 +0100 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:27:27PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:42:18 +0000 > Dave Wade wrote: > > > > Ohhh, Altavista! The mother of all Web search engines. I used it a lot > > > back in its days. A shame that it went down the drain with DEC... > > I don't think it did, it was sold and abandoned just in front of the > > steam roller that is google, very sad... > Sold and abandoned just like DEC, as I wrote... > > Interesting question: Would google have happened if Altavista wherent > ruined? Yes, because they came up with a much better algorithm to determine relevance of web pages. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 18 18:33:04 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:33:04 -0700 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/18/2012 5:06 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Yes, because they came up with a much better algorithm to determine > relevance of web pages. The one with the most ads sadly. > Kind regards, > Alex. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 18 18:38:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:38:52 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50A97F9C.3030006@neurotica.com> On 11/18/2012 07:33 PM, ben wrote: >> Yes, because they came up with a much better algorithm to determine >> relevance of web pages. > > The one with the most ads sadly. Algorithms don't have ads. Greedy suits do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rickb at bensene.com Sun Nov 18 18:52:15 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 16:52:15 -0800 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 November 2012 19:14, Ed Spittles wrote: > Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School, where he was photographed in > 1978 with a different computer: > http://ww2.durham.gov.uk/dre/pgDre.aspx?ID=DRE10345&PIC=Y > His memoir can be bought at The "computer" in the photo is appears not to be a computer, but a terminal. It appears to be a Southwest Technical Products CT-64 terminal. See: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_64/CT_64.htm This device was probably connected either to some form of microcomputer (e.g., Altair, IMSAI, etc.), or potentially some home-built machine, or was connected via modem to a remote timesharing service, as was common in schools during the timeframe. Rick Bensene From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Nov 18 18:54:10 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 01:54:10 +0100 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 06:31:06PM -0500, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 17, 2012, at 17:53, Toby Thain wrote: > > > On 17/11/12 2:23 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > >> > >> For me it was PageRank that made all the difference. I remember when > > > > Yes, you are quite right, but you need the endlessly scalable and fault-tolerant architecture as well. So you could say two paradigm shifts were involved. No wonder Google won. :) > > Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than > VMS? Because those may be fightin' words around here. :-) Yes. It scales from tiny embedded machines (the smallest I use daily has IIRC 32 MB of memory and a 50 MHz PPC CPU) to massive supercomputers with more than 1024 CPUs running (multiple) GHz clockspeed . It scales from machines with 32 MB of memory to machines with 256 GB and more of memory. It scales from tiny filesystems (a couple MB, just enough to hold a minimized compressed system image and kernel) to massive systems of dozens, hundreds of TB. With the right software setup, Linux based machine setups scale from a single node to tens of thousands of nodes. And fault-tolerance .. there is more than one way to cook that egg. You can build hardware clusters that will not fail[1]. Or you can build software environments that accept hardware failures as normal[0] and deal with it gracefully. The later approach is usually taken in very large scale Linux environments. Heck, we did it in our own cluster software for Linux. The art _has_ moved on from when VMS was king of scalability. Sorry to burst your bubble. Kind regards, Alex. [0] If you have a sufficiently large number of machines (10K+), the MTBF _will_ catch up with you and you _will_ have failures every day. [1] Except when they do. Yes, human error _does_ count. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Nov 18 19:03:54 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 02:03:54 +0100 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20121119010354.GC21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 05:33:04PM -0700, ben wrote: > On 11/18/2012 5:06 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > >Yes, because they came up with a much better algorithm to determine > >relevance of web pages. > > The one with the most ads sadly. Well, you've got to pay for all that hardware (and the crew running it, and the engineers building the system) _somehow_. At least the ads are clearly marked as such and you can't go "here is some cash, make my site the top search result". Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Nov 18 19:13:45 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 02:13:45 +0100 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50A97F9C.3030006@neurotica.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A97F9C.3030006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121119011317.GD21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 07:38:52PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/18/2012 07:33 PM, ben wrote: > >> Yes, because they came up with a much better algorithm to determine > >> relevance of web pages. > > > > The one with the most ads sadly. > > Algorithms don't have ads. Greedy suits do. So all that money to build datacenters, buy lots of machines, pay lots of people just comes from social security? I don't think so. You've got to find a way to pay for it somehow. Or are you willing to pay 50 cents[0] every time you do a Google search? Kind regards, Alex. [0] Random number, no idea what would be realistic. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 18 19:16:57 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:16:57 -0800 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <240D8F18-D7AC-41AF-A2C6-675C6E7B5E5F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Nov 18, at 4:52 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > On 18 November 2012 19:14, Ed Spittles wrote: >> Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School, where he was > photographed in >> 1978 with a different computer: >> http://ww2.durham.gov.uk/dre/pgDre.aspx?ID=DRE10345&PIC=Y >> His memoir can be bought at > > The "computer" in the photo is appears not to be a computer, but a > terminal. > It appears to be a Southwest Technical Products CT-64 terminal. > See: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_64/CT_64.htm > > This device was probably connected either to some form of > microcomputer > (e.g., Altair, IMSAI, etc.), or potentially some home-built > machine, or > was connected via modem to a remote timesharing service, as was common > in schools during the timeframe. In addition to the CT-64, on the left of the photo, you can just see the corner of what appears to be a SWTP AC-30 cassette interface (http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/AC30/AC30_Index.htm). This was typically used with the SWTP 6800, it's quite possible or likely the computer behind it all is a SWTP 6800. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 18 19:57:18 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:57:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than VMS? > [Linux] scales from tiny embedded machines (the smallest I use daily > has IIRC 32 MB of memory and a 50 MHz PPC CPU) I went through my larval phase on VMS on an 11/780, and I think it had something like 60M of _disk_ (well, for my first year or two on it; after that, I think we got two 300M washing-machine drives). If you think 32M of RAM is "tiny", you've already succumbed to serious bloat-tolerance. (Perhaps the best videogame I've ever played occupied a total of 24K - that's 24576 bytes - of ROM. Including the code and all the graphics constants.) > The art _has_ moved on from when VMS was king of scalability. "Moved on" to the point that thinks 32M of RAM is "tiny"? Sic transit gloria mundi. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 20:16:01 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:16:01 -0600 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: what game was this? On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than VMS? > > [Linux] scales from tiny embedded machines (the smallest I use daily > > has IIRC 32 MB of memory and a 50 MHz PPC CPU) > > I went through my larval phase on VMS on an 11/780, and I think it had > something like 60M of _disk_ (well, for my first year or two on it; > after that, I think we got two 300M washing-machine drives). If you > think 32M of RAM is "tiny", you've already succumbed to serious > bloat-tolerance. (Perhaps the best videogame I've ever played occupied > a total of 24K - that's 24576 bytes - of ROM. Including the code and > all the graphics constants.) > > > The art _has_ moved on from when VMS was king of scalability. > > "Moved on" to the point that thinks 32M of RAM is "tiny"? > > Sic transit gloria mundi. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From pjfitzpatrick207 at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 22:52:12 2012 From: pjfitzpatrick207 at gmail.com (Pat Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:52:12 -0600 Subject: Inventory Reduction -- IMSAI 8080, ADM3A, S100 stuff Message-ID: Hi All, It's time to face the fact that I simply don't have time to do much with my old computer collection and I'm going to slowly get rid of things and free up some space in my lab for "real" (meaning "paying") work. Not sure what the best way to sell this stuff is -- so I'm looking for advice -- or if there's someone on the list who's interested, we should talk. I have an IMSAI 8080, that I built in 1977 or 1978. It has the 22 slot motherboard, 24K RAM (3 x 8K Godbout boards) a serial I/O card, a NorthStar disk controller and SA400 drive with NorthStar BASIC. It all worked when I packed it away 8 or 9 years ago, but I fear the SA400 might have gotten wet in a basement flood a few years back. The computer itself stayed dry. The computer is missing two red and one blue switch handles and has a few scratches in the blue cover, but other than that, it's good. I also have a bunch of Intel multibus cards (for spare parts -- at least a couple of processors and most of the other harder to find chips). Documentation is pretty much complete. I have several floppies (copies of North Star DOS and BASIC), but I make no claim that they're still good. There's also a Lear-Siegler ADM3A terminal -- also in good condition some years ago, but again, it hasn't been powered for eight or nine years. No evidence of screen issues. I have the Maintenance Manual with schematics etc. The assembly manual was lost in the flood. Finally, I have a bunch of parts from a Z80 based system with a CPU card, a video card and a motherboard with built-in keypad and 7 segment displays. I don't know anything about it, really, and some of the boards are kind of grungy, so it's probably best considered spare parts. There is minimal, if any, documentation -- some stuff came with it, but a quick glance says it's mostly CP/M stuff, not hardware docs. I'm not sure what to do. With a bit of work, the IMSAI and terminal could be tested and running (even if I have to track down a new (?) drive, but I'm not sure I have the time to spend on it. Certainly not in the next year or so while I'm over-booked with real work. I think I'd rather sell it now, unless it makes vastly more sense to get it working and then sell it (in which case it might go back in storage for a while). As to selling it, does ebay get decent results? I'd like it to go to someone fairly knowledgeable. Is it reasonably salable in this state? All thoughts appreciated, Pat From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 01:44:07 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 01:44:07 -0600 Subject: Inventory Reduction -- IMSAI 8080, ADM3A, S100 stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: imsai 8080 will fetch at least 1k and depending on ur options could go for more... http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=imsai%208080&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=0&LH_Complete=1ebay complted listings list On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Pat Fitzpatrick < pjfitzpatrick207 at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All, > > It's time to face the fact that I simply don't have time to do much with my > old computer collection and I'm going to slowly get rid of things and free > up some space in my lab for "real" (meaning "paying") work. Not sure what > the best way to sell this stuff is -- so I'm looking for advice -- or if > there's someone on the list who's interested, we should talk. > > I have an IMSAI 8080, that I built in 1977 or 1978. It has the 22 slot > motherboard, 24K RAM (3 x 8K Godbout boards) a serial I/O card, a NorthStar > disk controller and SA400 drive with NorthStar BASIC. It all worked when I > packed it away 8 or 9 years ago, but I fear the SA400 might have gotten wet > in a basement flood a few years back. The computer itself stayed dry. The > computer is missing two red and one blue switch handles and has a few > scratches in the blue cover, but other than that, it's good. I also have a > bunch of Intel multibus cards (for spare parts -- at least a couple of > processors and most of the other harder to find chips). Documentation is > pretty much complete. I have several floppies (copies of North Star DOS and > BASIC), but I make no claim that they're still good. > > There's also a Lear-Siegler ADM3A terminal -- also in good condition some > years ago, but again, it hasn't been powered for eight or nine years. No > evidence of screen issues. I have the Maintenance Manual with schematics > etc. The assembly manual was lost in the flood. > > Finally, I have a bunch of parts from a Z80 based system with a CPU card, a > video card and a motherboard with built-in keypad and 7 segment displays. I > don't know anything about it, really, and some of the boards are kind of > grungy, so it's probably best considered spare parts. There is minimal, if > any, documentation -- some stuff came with it, but a quick glance says it's > mostly CP/M stuff, not hardware docs. > > I'm not sure what to do. With a bit of work, the IMSAI and terminal could > be tested and running (even if I have to track down a new (?) drive, but > I'm not sure I have the time to spend on it. Certainly not in the next year > or so while I'm over-booked with real work. I think I'd rather sell it now, > unless it makes vastly more sense to get it working and then sell it (in > which case it might go back in storage for a while). > > As to selling it, does ebay get decent results? I'd like it to go to > someone fairly knowledgeable. Is it reasonably salable in this state? > > All thoughts appreciated, > Pat > From ed.spittles at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 04:39:52 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:39:52 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:18, "Dave" wrote: [snip] >> On 18 November 2012 19:14, Ed Spittles wrote: >> > On 16/11/2012 08:13, ben wrote: >> >> On 11/16/2012 12:50 AM, Ed Spittles wrote: >> >>>> [conversation about Wireless World articles - a digital computer >> >>>> built from reject germanium transistors] [snip] >> Fantastic! I got in touch with Hector Parr, and he directed >> me to a memoir he's written, and I now have a story: [snip] >> Hector read Alan's book and proceeded to get >> the Maths department and pupils to finance and build a >> machine called DENICE, designed from scratch but with >> inspiration from the book. >> [snip] >> His memoir can be bought at >> > http://www.lulu.com/shop/hector-c-parr/music-maths-and-machines/paperback/product-1021349.html >> - there's a copy of this too on its way to me. [snip] >> >> (As for the reported cost of ?50 in the late 60's, I'm told a weekly shop > for a couple would be ?2 and a pint of rough > > cider would be 1/9d (that > is, 21 old pence, which were 240 to the pound.) According to >> http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/, >> the project would cost ?750 today, although those anecdotal prices suggest > rather more.) > > I think ?750 is probably about right, but comparisions are difficult as > prices havn't increased uniformly. My dad earned around ?22 a week. In my > first part time job at this time I earned 10/- (50p or ?0.50 in current > money) for 4 hours work at our local Woolworths. I seem to recall paying > ?25.00 for a second hand motor bike around that time. I also remember > getting over time for swapping out around 100 tills that did the old style > ?:s:D for new ones that did ?/P one Saturday night All good info! I dimly recall getting 3d pocket money, some time in the late 60's. But I was a mere nipper and pocket money is highly variable. Perhaps a better calibration might come from the job ads in New Scientist:?there's a 1965 issue here http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F4zFnwoUmHQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=true and we see a junior technician can get GBP280-520 at the University of Keele, or an 18 year old can get GBP660 by joining the Royal Navy Engineering Service. There are job ads for programming a LEO, but the private sector isn't upfront about salaries. The Tanzanian Treasury would pay you GPB2361 with free passage to program their ICT 1500, but overseas pay won't be a good indication of the value of money. [snip] > If you find any mreo info about Denice I would be really interested... Well, I found a post by ... you! On alt.folklore.computers https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.folklore.computers/DENICE/alt.folklore.computers/aCEMFSmEjHM/kosMLbkNXDgJ (aka http://goo.gl/ebXiT) I hope to learn a little more from Hector's book when it turns up. > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum Cheers Ed (Thanks to Rick Bensene for the correction on the photo:) >> Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School, where he was > photographed in >> 1978 with a different computer: >> http://ww2.durham.gov.uk/dre/pgDre.aspx?ID=DRE10345&PIC=Y >> His memoir can be bought at > > The "computer" in the photo is appears not to be a computer, but a > terminal. > It appears to be a Southwest Technical Products CT-64 terminal. > See: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_64/CT_64.htm > > This device was probably connected either to some form of microcomputer > (e.g., Altair, IMSAI, etc.), or potentially some home-built machine, or > was connected via modem to a remote timesharing service, as was common > in schools during the timeframe. > > Rick Bensene From jthecman at netscape.net Mon Nov 19 06:44:31 2012 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 07:44:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8CF946AC10393E0-DB8-28FC7@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> I too will be putting on a computer chess show in Jan 2013 at a museum here in Houston but have not finished all the planning yet. I will be using handheld computer games, table top games, and computer/console based games for the display with some hands on being allowed. Not sure if I will have it all finished by 12/1 in order to help you with your planning. Good luck. JK -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: cctalk Sent: Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought Some of you may remember about a year ago I was approached about setting up a short term exhibit at a local museum with a theme of "Computers in Chess". They had a year or so of exhibits already on the schedule at the time. They recently reconnected with me and have asked me to submit a detailed proposal of items to exhibit. Of course, the proposal is due Dec 1st. The venue in question is a "real museum", so you can be assured of world-class facilities related to UV (light exposure), people certified to handle artifacts, environmental controls, security, etc. If any individuals or museums represented here might have ideas for portions of the exhibit and/or have artifacts, displays, etc. for loan I would very much like to see your ideas as quickly as possible. Rest assured that proper shipping, insurance, and compensation for temporary loan of items would be taken care of. The timeframe for the exhibit is May 2013, and the duration of the exhibit would be about 4 months. If your items are chosen to include in the proposal, the museum would contact you directly to arrange the loan and then provide a facillities report directly to the loaning institution or individual. It is very important to me that this exhibit succeeds. If you have any items related to "Computers in Chess" or display ideas, please email me off-list as soon as is possible for consideration. Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Nov 19 08:01:52 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:01:52 +0100 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121119140152.GA4766@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 08:57:18PM -0500, Mouse wrote: > >> Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than VMS? > > [Linux] scales from tiny embedded machines (the smallest I use daily > > has IIRC 32 MB of memory and a 50 MHz PPC CPU) > > I went through my larval phase on VMS on an 11/780, and I think it had > something like 60M of _disk_ (well, for my first year or two on it; > after that, I think we got two 300M washing-machine drives). If you > think 32M of RAM is "tiny", you've already succumbed to serious > bloat-tolerance. (Perhaps the best videogame I've ever played occupied > a total of 24K - that's 24576 bytes - of ROM. Including the code and > all the graphics constants.) The first machine I ever played around with had a bit under 32 KB of RAM and ran on a U880 (eastern bloc copy of the Z80). First machine I bought with my own money had 120 MHz CPU, 32 MB RAM, 1 GB disk and was a serious powerhouse at the time. > > The art _has_ moved on from when VMS was king of scalability. > > "Moved on" to the point that thinks 32M of RAM is "tiny"? Well, these for anything that is not some kind of embedded system? Yes. > Sic transit gloria mundi. Well ... yes, there is bloat. Part of that comes from "nobody"[0] doing assembly language anymore and instead using high level and script languages. But we are also _doing_ a lot more with the machines these days, things that were flat out impossible due to a serious lack of computrons 20-30 years ago are now just normal. I'm looking forward to you demonstrating realtime 1080p video decoding on a 11/780 ;-) Kind regards, Alex. [0] in quotes because I know that there is still asm in use, both for very low level kernel/driver work and for special optimization -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Nov 19 11:33:13 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:33:13 +0000 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25245B91@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:27:27PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Interesting question: Would google have happened if Altavista wherent > > ruined? > Yes, because they came up with a much better algorithm to determine > relevance of web pages. What I liked about Altavista is if I just remembered a fragment of text on a web page, or in a Usenet post, it could find it. This of course was late 90's. Google with page rank, along with the other search engines doing their own tweak of page rank, gave me the "most relevant to my search page" using their algorithm, and often not the one I wanted. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 11:55:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25245B91@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25245B91@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20121119095440.N33785@shell.lmi.net> Close attention to the implications in Blair/Maron can go a long way towards making one system seem much better than another. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 12:36:07 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:36:07 +0000 Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought In-Reply-To: <8CF946AC10393E0-DB8-28FC7@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> References: <201211151739.qAFHdbQ9000419@huey.classiccmp.org> <8CF946AC10393E0-DB8-28FC7@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1733633008-1353350169-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1514889488-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Cool :-) are you working with the Houston Computer Museum? Or by your first initial are you John per chance? - other John from vcfsw -----Original Message----- From: jthecman at netscape.net Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 07:44:31 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Museum Exhibits Sought I too will be putting on a computer chess show in Jan 2013 at a museum here in Houston but have not finished all the planning yet. I will be using handheld computer games, table top games, and computer/console based games for the display with some hands on being allowed. Not sure if I will have it all finished by 12/1 in order to help you with your planning. Good luck. JK -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: cctalk Sent: Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Museum Exhibits Sought Some of you may remember about a year ago I was approached about setting up a short term exhibit at a local museum with a theme of "Computers in Chess". They had a year or so of exhibits already on the schedule at the time. They recently reconnected with me and have asked me to submit a detailed proposal of items to exhibit. Of course, the proposal is due Dec 1st. The venue in question is a "real museum", so you can be assured of world-class facilities related to UV (light exposure), people certified to handle artifacts, environmental controls, security, etc. If any individuals or museums represented here might have ideas for portions of the exhibit and/or have artifacts, displays, etc. for loan I would very much like to see your ideas as quickly as possible. Rest assured that proper shipping, insurance, and compensation for temporary loan of items would be taken care of. The timeframe for the exhibit is May 2013, and the duration of the exhibit would be about 4 months. If your items are chosen to include in the proposal, the museum would contact you directly to arrange the loan and then provide a facillities report directly to the loaning institution or individual. It is very important to me that this exhibit succeeds. If you have any items related to "Computers in Chess" or display ideas, please email me off-list as soon as is possible for consideration. Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org From sales at elecplus.com Mon Nov 19 14:01:55 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:01:55 -0600 Subject: Classic computers set ot "music" Message-ID: <009a01cdc690$b9b835a0$2d28a0e0$@com> http://www.thecreatorsproject.com/blog/vintage-computer-symphony-plays-house -of-the-rising-sun Somebody has an awful lot of free time on their hands! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5898 - Release Date: 11/16/12 From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Nov 19 15:00:22 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:00:22 +0100 Subject: Classic computers set ot "music" In-Reply-To: <009a01cdc690$b9b835a0$2d28a0e0$@com> References: <009a01cdc690$b9b835a0$2d28a0e0$@com> Message-ID: <50AA9DE6.8040906@update.uu.se> On 11/19/2012 09:01 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.thecreatorsproject.com/blog/vintage-computer-symphony-plays-house > -of-the-rising-sun > > > > Somebody has an awful lot of free time on their hands! > They sure do :) Here is my favourite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmoDLyiQYKw Somebody get that boy an 8"-incher! /P From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Nov 19 15:16:55 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:16:55 +1300 Subject: Classic computers set ot "music" In-Reply-To: <009a01cdc690$b9b835a0$2d28a0e0$@com> References: <009a01cdc690$b9b835a0$2d28a0e0$@com> Message-ID: LOL. Awesome!! On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > > http://www.thecreatorsproject.com/blog/vintage-computer-symphony-plays-house > -of-the-rising-sun > > > > Somebody has an awful lot of free time on their hands! > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5898 - Release Date: 11/16/12 > > From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 23:20:22 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:20:22 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 SAV File Format Message-ID: <50AB1316.9040705@gmail.com> I've downloaded several ks10 instruction set diagnostics in .SAV file format from trailing-edge.com. In a 36-bit world, I think I understand the .SAV file format. I can't figure out the format that I've retrieved. I've even tried loading the .SAV files that I've retrieved into SIMH but SIMH complains about a "Format Error". Any clues? Did I mung the files copying them from the website? Rob. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 20 01:59:58 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 08:59:58 +0100 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain Message-ID: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> Just FYI: http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=4337 There are some Pictures of uVAXII processor boards, and pics of the east German and the Russian uVAX Processors at thew end of that thread. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rachael at telefisk.org Tue Nov 20 03:17:16 2012 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:17:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Just FYI: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=4337 > > There are some Pictures of uVAXII processor boards, and pics of the east > German and the Russian uVAX Processors at thew end of that thread. Sadly it seems to be one of those web forums where you have to register first to see any of it. Regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Nov 20 03:59:39 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:59:39 -0000 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Bad Link 1. In German 2. Asks for username and password Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ?????ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS ? EDI Consulting Ltd ? Phone? 0118 971 4436 Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe Sent: 20 November 2012 08:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain Just FYI: http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=4337 There are some Pictures of uVAXII processor boards, and pics of the east German and the Russian uVAX Processors at thew end of that thread. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Nov 20 04:17:14 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:17:14 +0100 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121120111714.Horde.nPizCKQd9PdQq1iqaVLLb3A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> What was shown basically in the thread was: russian MicroVAXII-Board with Copro ??1807??4: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/M10_u80701_lowres.jpg DEC-Original KA 630: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/7606_dec.jpg eastern german ROBOTRON KAC20: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/k1820_zve_kac20_r.jpg russian/ukrainian board (after 1991) for the system CM1702: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/cm1702_01.jpg From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Nov 20 05:35:35 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:35:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: <20121120111714.Horde.nPizCKQd9PdQq1iqaVLLb3A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121120111714.Horde.nPizCKQd9PdQq1iqaVLLb3A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <1353411335.95087.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Thank you very much for the direct links to the very nice images, Oliver? :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > Von: Oliver Lehmann > An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > CC: > Gesendet: 11:17 Dienstag, 20.November 2012 > Betreff: Re: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain > > What was shown basically in the thread was: > > russian MicroVAXII-Board with Copro ??1807??4: > ? http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/M10_u80701_lowres.jpg > > DEC-Original KA 630: > ? http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/7606_dec.jpg > > eastern german ROBOTRON KAC20: > ? http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/k1820_zve_kac20_r.jpg > > russian/ukrainian board (after 1991) for the system CM1702: > ? http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/cm1702_01.jpg > From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 20 07:04:34 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:04:34 +0100 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121120130434.GA7478@beast.freibergnet.de> rachael at telefisk.org wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Just FYI: > > > >http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=4337 > > > >There are some Pictures of uVAXII processor boards, and pics of the east > >German and the Russian uVAX Processors at thew end of that thread. > > Sadly it seems to be one of those web forums where you have to register > first to see any of it. > > Regards > > -- > Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 Ok, you are right. This was in a ebay category from this forum where the direct access is prohibited if you aren't logged in. Sorry, my fault. In the other categories (besides of "ebay" "Internals" and "Test") the access is granted. I forgot about that. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 20 07:08:18 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:08:18 +0100 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121120130818.GB7478@beast.freibergnet.de> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Bad Link > > 1. In German Do you think this is a bad link since the Forum is in german and you don't understand taht language? Sorry, than this is your fault. Nobody is preventing you for learning other languages. What schould I say, I've never had english in a school (but hat russian) and my natural language is german. Try to find some converters on the Net if you can't read it dude, exactly like all not english readers on the world are doing... Regards, Holm > 2. Asks for username and password > > Regards > ? > Rod Smallwood > ? > ?????ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS > ? > EDI Consulting Ltd > ? > Phone? 0118 971 4436 > Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe > Sent: 20 November 2012 08:00 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain > > Just FYI: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=4337 > > There are some Pictures of uVAXII processor boards, and pics of the east > German and the Russian uVAX Processors at thew end of that thread. > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 20 07:13:46 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:13:46 +0100 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: <20121120111714.Horde.nPizCKQd9PdQq1iqaVLLb3A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121120111714.Horde.nPizCKQd9PdQq1iqaVLLb3A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20121120131346.GC7478@beast.freibergnet.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > What was shown basically in the thread was: > > russian MicroVAXII-Board with Copro ??1807??4: > http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/M10_u80701_lowres.jpg > > DEC-Original KA 630: > http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/7606_dec.jpg > > eastern german ROBOTRON KAC20: > http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/k1820_zve_kac20_r.jpg > > russian/ukrainian board (after 1991) for the system CM1702: > http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/cm1702_01.jpg Here the links to the processor images aditionally: The east german uVAXII Processor U80701 on a daughterboard: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/u80701_modul.jpg Same as above but the russian FP-Coproc additionally in the background: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/u80701+kl1807bm4.jpg Russian CPU on the left and Co on the right: http://www.robotron-vax.de/K1820/kl1807vm3+4.jpg Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Nov 20 07:20:28 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:20:28 +0000 Subject: KA630 and Clones from behind the iron curtain In-Reply-To: <20121120130818.GB7478@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121120075958.GD14498@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121120130818.GB7478@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 20 November 2012 13:08, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Do you think this is a bad link since the Forum is in german and you don't > understand taht language? Sorry, than this is your fault. > Nobody is preventing you for learning other languages. > What schould I say, I've never had english in a school (but hat russian) > and my natural language is german. Try to find some converters on the Net > if you can't read it dude, exactly like all not english readers on the > world are doing... There are plenty of online tools that will translate it in any case. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From chrise at pobox.com Tue Nov 20 12:11:04 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:11:04 -0600 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? Message-ID: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> I've recently restored a DEC TU58 dual-transport tape system but am finding that 30+ year old DC100A cartridges are perhaps past the end of their useful life. The belts in many of them have rotted and broken. There are still some places you can get new cartridges, but they are more than $40 a piece. Has anyone found a way to source and replace the broken belts? I am not interested in preserving the data on the tapes as much as I am interested in just having working tapes... so I don't get ahead by moving a belt from a "good" cartridge to a bad one. I'm interested in trying to repair the bad cartridges. I've seen the writeup here, for the HP 9845 and its DC100As, http://www.hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/savetapes/index.html but that doesn't tell us what to do about broken belts other than to steal them from other cartridges... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Nov 20 13:27:17 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:27:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 SAV File Format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B25246D5E@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Rob writes: > I've downloaded several ks10 instruction set diagnostics in .SAV file format from trailing-edge.com. > In a 36-bit world, I think I understand the .SAV file format. I can't figure out the format that I've retrieved. > I've even tried loading the .SAV files that I've retrieved into SIMH but SIMH complains about a "Format Error". > Any clues? Did I mung the files copying them from the website? I endeavored a little bit in the late 90's to get a modern FTP server that could move 36 bit executables intact. E.g. True 36-bit "BINARY" as per RFC 959, with the .SAV's arranged nibble-wise to work. Failing at that, I even endeavored to get a RFC for 36-bit file movement via HTTP. Tried to drop hints to Marc Crispin (author of many RFC's). But in the end I punted. What you want to do to get an intact .SAV, is grab the tape image and unpack the tape image on a PDP-10 (or emulated -10). The tape image is the primal object that will not get mangled. Tim. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 20 15:14:35 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 22:14:35 +0100 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Chris Elmquist > Verzonden: dinsdag 20 november 2012 19:11 > Aan: Classic Computer Talk > Onderwerp: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? > > I've recently restored a DEC TU58 dual-transport tape system but am finding > that 30+ year old DC100A cartridges are perhaps past the end of their useful life. > > The belts in many of them have rotted and broken. > > There are still some places you can get new cartridges, but they are more than > $40 a piece. > > Has anyone found a way to source and replace the broken belts? > > I am not interested in preserving the data on the tapes as much as I am > interested in just having working tapes... so I don't get ahead by moving a belt > from a "good" cartridge to a bad one. I'm interested in trying to repair the bad > cartridges. > > I've seen the writeup here, for the HP 9845 and its DC100As, > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/savetapes/index.html > > but that doesn't tell us what to do about broken belts other than to steal them > from other cartridges... > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist I used the belts from QIC40 tapes, the 3M types worked ok for me. You need to look that the belt are small enough they're two types of QIC40 belts on small the other a little wider, you need the small ones. -Rik From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 15:47:04 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 15:47:04 -0600 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: hardware emulator... On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > ] > > Namens Chris Elmquist > > Verzonden: dinsdag 20 november 2012 19:11 > > Aan: Classic Computer Talk > > Onderwerp: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? > > > > I've recently restored a DEC TU58 dual-transport tape system but am > finding > > that 30+ year old DC100A cartridges are perhaps past the end of their > useful life. > > > > The belts in many of them have rotted and broken. > > > > There are still some places you can get new cartridges, but they are more > than > > $40 a piece. > > > > Has anyone found a way to source and replace the broken belts? > > > > I am not interested in preserving the data on the tapes as much as I am > > interested in just having working tapes... so I don't get ahead by > moving > a belt > > from a "good" cartridge to a bad one. I'm interested in trying to repair > the bad > > cartridges. > > > > I've seen the writeup here, for the HP 9845 and its DC100As, > > > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/savetapes/index.html > > > > but that doesn't tell us what to do about broken belts other than to > steal > them > > from other cartridges... > > > > Chris > > -- > > Chris Elmquist > > I used the belts from QIC40 tapes, the 3M types worked ok for me. > You need to look that the belt are small enough they're two types of QIC40 > belts on small the other a little wider, you need the small ones. > > -Rik > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 16:02:38 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:02:38 -0600 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> On 11/18/2012 07:57 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Are you saying Linux is more scalable and fault-tolerant than VMS? >> [Linux] scales from tiny embedded machines (the smallest I use daily >> has IIRC 32 MB of memory and a 50 MHz PPC CPU) > > I went through my larval phase on VMS on an 11/780, and I think it had > something like 60M of _disk_ My first Linux machine had less* disk than that! :-) It was blessed with a capacious 8MB of RAM though (I think the minimum was 2MB at the time, although it went to 4MB not long after) * It was an 89MB drive, but IIRC I only gave 30-something MB over to Linux initially until it was clear that it was stable enough for me to do the bulk of my work on. >> The art _has_ moved on from when VMS was king of scalability. > > "Moved on" to the point that thinks 32M of RAM is "tiny"? I suppose it's so cheap these days that it makes no meaningful difference to the cost of a device to give it 32KB or 32MB; may as well give it the larger value and offer a more choice to the masses. There are probably cases of certain OSes refusing to run because the host platform has _too much_ RAM, but I'm struggling to think of any right now. I don't like bloat either, but I suppose the question is whether VMS would have swollen equally if it existed with the same set of features as Linux does. In a closed-source environment and with talented developers I expect it might be considerably better, but still require vastly more resources than the VMS of years ago. There's the age-old question of where "the OS" ends and "support programs" begins to consider too, I suppose. cheers Jules From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 20 16:01:00 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 23:01:00 +0100 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Adrian Stoness > Verzonden: dinsdag 20 november 2012 22:47 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? > > hardware emulator... > Which is a solution, but doesn't restores the information on the tapes... And isn't at much fun as the real thing. -Rik From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 16:11:09 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:11:09 -0600 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <20121119011317.GD21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A97F9C.3030006@neurotica.com> <20121119011317.GD21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <50ABFFFD.20202@gmail.com> On 11/18/2012 07:13 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Or are you willing to pay 50 cents[0] every time you do a Google search? That's an interesting question. The world might be a better place for it (while it's nice to have answers at our fingertips, I can't help feeling we're losing something when people don't communicate with each other; I see the kids do it all the time, and they might end up with the right answer, but they don't know *why* it's right) From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Nov 20 17:16:25 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 23:16:25 +0000 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20 November 2012 22:02, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose it's so cheap these days that it makes no meaningful difference to > the cost of a device to give it 32KB or 32MB; may as well give it the larger > value and offer a more choice to the masses. There are probably cases of > certain OSes refusing to run because the host platform has _too much_ RAM, > but I'm struggling to think of any right now. BOS was a bit picky sometimes.... http://www.global3000.co.uk/comphist.html Now that was/is a nice OS - back around 1990 I brought a copy home and had it running three concurrent users, each with four tasks, on an Amstrad PC1512 (8086, but upgraded to 640K RAM and a 10Mb after-market hard drive) - I was using BBC Micros as terminals.. I loved the way you could copy applications and user-data between widely different architectures without a thought. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 17:27:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:27:08 -0500 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E68DA87-9C2E-4458-B6F2-A2A83CFA8D7F@gmail.com> On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:02 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> The art _has_ moved on from when VMS was king of scalability. >> >> "Moved on" to the point that thinks 32M of RAM is "tiny"? > > I suppose it's so cheap these days that it makes no meaningful difference to the cost of a device to give it 32KB or 32MB; may as well give it the larger value and offer a more choice to the masses. There are probably cases of certain OSes refusing to run because the host platform has _too much_ RAM, but I'm struggling to think of any right now. > > I don't like bloat either, but I suppose the question is whether VMS would have swollen equally if it existed with the same set of features as Linux does. In a closed-source environment and with talented developers I expect it might be considerably better, but still require vastly more resources than the VMS of years ago. I should point out that it's still maintained. Someone else would have to say how much it's bloated over the last VAX-capable release, since I don't have any Alpha or IA64 hardware to play on (yet). However, 7.3 runs quite happily in its default install state on a 64 MB SIMH emulation, and I could probably cut that down to 32 MB with little problem. All the scalability numbers pointed out so far appear to be roughly *equal* to VMS numbers of a decade ago, and I can't imagine it's gotten worse. My assertion isn't that VMS is always the best OS for the task (in plenty of cases, it's not, and I'd actually love to hear a list of things it's decidedly better for from someone more experienced with it), but that it had extremely good scalability way back when and can still compete with the best Linux has to offer in terms of scalability now. > There's the age-old question of where "the OS" ends and "support programs" begins to consider too, I suppose. Well, yeah. My impression (not having done loads of Linux clustering) is that it's much easier to write clustered applications in Linux than to utilize any OS-level clustering support. But I may be entirely off-base there, since it's not my domain. - Dave From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 20 17:56:25 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:56:25 -0500 Subject: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121119000613.GA21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <50A97E40.9090204@jetnet.ab.ca> <50A97F9C.3030006@neurotica.com> <20121119011317.GD21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <50ABFFFD.20202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F974D693E9846D8A5450C7F3B64C7A8@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) > On 11/18/2012 07:13 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> Or are you willing to pay 50 cents[0] every time you do a Google search? > > That's an interesting question. The world might be a better place for it > (while it's nice to have answers at our fingertips, I can't help feeling > we're losing something when people don't communicate with each other; I > see the kids do it all the time, and they might end up with the right > answer, but they don't know *why* it's right) > Why would it be? Most of what is googled is entertainment fluff anyway. Technology today keeps everyone at least a few layers away from knowing if the answer the computer spits out is the real answer or not. And as far as communication goes, nothing beats face to face especially if you are looking to see if somebody is telling the truth or is very uncomfortable in responding to a question (withholding key information). Real communication went out with the phone and email. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 20 18:02:09 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:02:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: What VMS is good for [was Re: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] In-Reply-To: <1E68DA87-9C2E-4458-B6F2-A2A83CFA8D7F@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> <1E68DA87-9C2E-4458-B6F2-A2A83CFA8D7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201211210002.TAA00913@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > My assertion isn't that VMS is always the best OS for the task (in > plenty of cases, it's not, and I'd actually love to hear a list of > things it's decidedly better for from someone more experienced with > it), Well, based on experience that's some 25-30 years old, and from a relatively unsophisticated point of view even then.... - VMS is much better at keeping application-layer programs that should be separate actually separate. - Its privilege model totally blows away anything Unixy, possibly excepting some of the capability systems (and I'm not sure how Unixy I count them - I don't know any of them well enough to really make a fair comparison, either with my memories of VMS or with the vague cluster of characteristics that I collectively call "Unixy"). - The I/O subsystem is much better-designed for "go do this and tell me when it's done" async operation. Indeed, sync I/O is just a wrapper around "make this async request and then block until it's done". I'd be interested to know what people who know VMS better than I, or who know more recent VMS, think of those points. > but that it had extremely good scalability way back when That, I never had anything to do with, so I can't comment. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 20 18:07:45 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:07:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: "tiny" machines [was Re: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] In-Reply-To: <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201211210007.TAA00952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There are probably cases of certain OSes refusing to run because the > host platform has _too much_ RAM, but I'm struggling to think of any > right now. Some of NetBSD's ports have had such issues, either because too much RAM means more page tables than various parts of the system are prepared to deal with or because of addressing issues (eg, a pre-PAE i386 kernel may well have trouble with more than 4G of RAM). Not often, but it has happened. There are other issues - such as the time required to take a kernel coredump - but they aren't "refusing to run". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Nov 20 20:26:23 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:26:23 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 SAV File Format Message-ID: <35eec25f$a920e54$45e62920$@com> > > > I've downloaded several ks10 instruction set diagnostics in .SAV file > format from trailing-edge.com. > > In a 36-bit world, I think I understand the .SAV file format. I can't > figure out the format that I've retrieved. > > I've even tried loading the .SAV files that I've retrieved into SIMH but > SIMH complains about a "Format Error". > > Any clues? Did I mung the files copying them from the website? > > Rob. > Rob, The .SV file format from OS/8 (PDP 8's OS) is kind of like .SAV...Maybe someone renamed the file extension for some reason? Bill From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 00:10:57 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 00:10:57 -0600 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: true but takes up less space speaking of witch i need to get around to hooking mine up just need to figure out a power source On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > ] > > Namens Adrian Stoness > > Verzonden: dinsdag 20 november 2012 22:47 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? > > > > hardware emulator... > > > Which is a solution, but doesn't restores the information on the tapes... > And isn't at much fun as the real thing. > > -Rik > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 02:23:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 00:23:57 -0800 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50AC8F9D.7010600@sydex.com> On 11/20/2012 10:10 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > true but takes up less space > speaking of witch i need to get around to hooking mine up just need to > figure out a power source You might try using a Plastiband from Baumgartens as a replacement. They come in 3 sizes--approximately 2", 4" and 6". I've never used one on a DC100A, but have used them on DC600 and DC2000 carts with some success. They're made of polyurethane, just like the original tension bands, but lack the lubricant. I find that a bit of dry silicone lube helps out in that respect. The technical support guy at Imation told me that the original tension bands were stamped as rings from a sheet, then twisted and applied with a special machine. He tried to find the manual version of the machine used in the 3M QA lab, but came up empty. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 21 05:53:02 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 05:53:02 -0600 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20121121115302.GQ29604@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (11/20/2012 at 11:01PM +0100), Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > hardware emulator... > > > Which is a solution, but doesn't restores the information on the tapes... > And isn't at much fun as the real thing. Yes. Exactly. The whole point is the restoration of the real, original thing. -- Chris Elmquist From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 05:54:17 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:54:17 +0100 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:02 , Jules Richardson wrote: > There are probably cases of certain OSes refusing to run because the host platform has _too much_ RAM, but I'm struggling to think of any right now. Different versions of Windows 2000 have (artificial) limitations on the maximum hardware specs: Workstation supports up to two CPU's and four GB of RAM, Server handles up to four CPU's, Advanced Server up to eight CPU's and eight GB of RAM, and Datacenter Server supports up to 32 CPU's and 64 GB RAM. I strongly suspect these limitations are in fact artificial, since Win2K Workstation will support four CPU's on the SiliconGraphics Visual Workstation 540 if it is installed as an upgrade over the SGI-specific four-CPU install of NT4. .tsooJ -- A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems. - Alfred Renyi (referring to Paul Erdos) -- Joost van de Griek From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 21 07:54:13 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 07:54:13 -0600 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? In-Reply-To: <50AC8F9D.7010600@sydex.com> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <006801cdc764$0e981f80$2bc85e80$@xs4all.nl> <007501cdc76a$8a317410$9e945c30$@xs4all.nl> <50AC8F9D.7010600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121121135413.GA18713@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (11/21/2012 at 12:23AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/20/2012 10:10 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >true but takes up less space > >speaking of witch i need to get around to hooking mine up just need to > >figure out a power source > > You might try using a Plastiband from Baumgartens as a replacement. > They come in 3 sizes--approximately 2", 4" and 6". I've never used > one on a DC100A, but have used them on DC600 and DC2000 carts with > some success. They're made of polyurethane, just like the original > tension bands, but lack the lubricant. I find that a bit of dry > silicone lube helps out in that respect. OK. I'll look into that. Thanks. It seems like the actual tape media is still good (at least visually seems OK; not flaking or wrinkled or anything ugly) so seems worth a shot to try to replace the band (at some nominal cost) and see what life is left. I appreciate Rik's input on the QIC40 belts too. That is also worth a shot as I do know where I can get a supply of those to sacrifice. > The technical support guy at Imation told me that the original > tension bands were stamped as rings from a sheet, then twisted and > applied with a special machine. He tried to find the manual version > of the machine used in the 3M QA lab, but came up empty. Very interesting. I should just go over there and poke around in their dumpsters. Imation (and 3M) are within 5 miles of where I live :-) Not much left of anything data recording related there anymore though. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 21 13:09:56 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 19:09:56 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 SAV File Format In-Reply-To: <35eec25f$a920e54$45e62920$@com> References: <35eec25f$a920e54$45e62920$@com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1B91@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: B. Degnan Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:26 PM [quoting Rob Doyle] >> I've downloaded several ks10 instruction set diagnostics in .SAV file >> format from trailing-edge.com. >> In a 36-bit world, I think I understand the .SAV file format. I >> can't figure out the format that I've retrieved. >> I've even tried loading the .SAV files that I've retrieved into SIMH >> but SIMH complains about a "Format Error". >> Any clues? Did I mung the files copying them from the website? > The .SV file format from OS/8 (PDP 8's OS) is kind of like .SAV... > Maybe someone renamed the file extension for some reason? Bill, Rob was downloading the individual binary files which Tim Shoppa had scraped off of PDP-10 tapes on the http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ web site. As Tim explained in his reply to Rob, he did not create these files in a way that would allow them to be transferred safely (via an 8-bit interface) between PDP-10 systems, which is why they end up with an incorrect format when anyone attempts to use them directly in a PDP-10 simulator. As Tim pointed out, the *right* way to use any of the binaries (the text files are just fine via HTTP) is to download the unadulterated tape image associated with each list of files, and use PDP-10 native tools (BACKUP on Tops-10, DUMPER on TOPS-20) to restore the files to a disk image and *then* use them. (As an old contributor to as well as long time user of Tim's site, I feel justified in pointing this out.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 21 15:07:30 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:07:30 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please see https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November212012 If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 21 15:09:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 14:09:45 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50AD4319.8010803@brouhaha.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > I've recently restored a DEC TU58 dual-transport tape system but am > finding that 30+ year old DC100A cartridges are perhaps past the end of > their useful life. [...] > I am not interested in preserving the data on the tapes as much as I > am interested in just having working tapes... To have working tapes, you MUST preserve at least some of the "data" on the tapes. The TU58 is not capable of formatting a blank or non-TU58 tape. There apparently was some non-standard TU58 firmware that could format tapes, but no one seems to actually have it. The hardware is simple enough that I've considered writing formatter firmware myself, but that's one of a zillion projects that I haven't gotten around to. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 21 15:35:54 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:35:54 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50AD4319.8010803@brouhaha.com> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <50AD4319.8010803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20121121213554.GF18713@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (11/21/2012 at 02:09PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > Chris Elmquist wrote: > >I've recently restored a DEC TU58 dual-transport tape system but am > >finding that 30+ year old DC100A cartridges are perhaps past the end of > >their useful life. > [...] > >I am not interested in preserving the data on the tapes as much as I > >am interested in just having working tapes... > > To have working tapes, you MUST preserve at least some of the "data" > on the tapes. The TU58 is not capable of formatting a blank or > non-TU58 tape. ooh. That is a really good point that I had overlooked. Particularly, when thinking about buying a couple $50 non-DEC tapes! Thank you. > There apparently was some non-standard TU58 firmware that could > format tapes, but no one seems to actually have it. > > The hardware is simple enough that I've considered writing formatter > firmware myself, but that's one of a zillion projects that I haven't > gotten around to. Now that I have known working transports, I could go down this path too-- but then I'm back to needing some working blank tapes again :-) I have (4) unopened tapes and a few "beaters" that seem to still work so this may be all I can work with going forward-- unless a replacement belt scheme pans out. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 15:42:20 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 19:42:20 -0200 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <50AD4319.8010803@brouhaha.com> <20121121213554.GF18713@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <395804D27AEE4EB2BBA7C7E0A49AA97A@tababook> > I have (4) unopened tapes and a few "beaters" that seem to still work > so this may be all I can work with going forward-- unless a replacement > belt scheme pans out. Chris, what is the problem with recovering a DC100A for service? If I'm not mistaken I have some tens of these tapes stored...Is it expensive where you live? Shipping from Brazil would be expensive for a free pack of 10 or 20 tapes? From sales at elecplus.com Wed Nov 21 16:36:30 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 16:36:30 -0600 Subject: 2nd set of photos, Kerrville warehouse Message-ID: <00cd01cdc838$a6cdc780$f4695680$@com> Still getting used to Picasa, sorry. 2nd set of photos is https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November21201203 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 16:42:15 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 20:42:15 -0200 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: I'm drooling! :D --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:07 PM Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please > see > https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November212012 > > > > If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 > From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Nov 21 16:46:55 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:46:55 -0500 Subject: 2nd set of photos, Kerrville warehouse In-Reply-To: <00cd01cdc838$a6cdc780$f4695680$@com> References: <00cd01cdc838$a6cdc780$f4695680$@com> Message-ID: <232331F2-4ABA-440D-8ACC-E83F65974E97@xlisper.com> I didn't read the beginning of this thread. Are you selling these? Are you willing to ship them? I'm interested in the Apple /// that is in the middle of your second set of pictures. How much would that cost and how much for shipping it to 03110? Thanks, David Betz On Nov 21, 2012, at 5:36 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Still getting used to Picasa, sorry. 2nd set of photos is > https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November21201203 > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Nov 21 16:49:45 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:49:45 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: I want that Apple ///! On 21 November 2012 22:42, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I'm drooling! :D > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" < > sales at elecplus.com> > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:07 PM > Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > > > > For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please >> see >> https://picasaweb.google.com/**106111250846948401252/**November212012 >> >> >> >> If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> Electronics Plus >> >> 1613 Water Street >> >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> >> (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >> >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 >> >> > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 21 22:04:29 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 20:04:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > I want that Apple ///! > Sorry, your wife called and said you can't have it. Mumbled something about shoving it up something and then hung up. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 22:59:38 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 20:59:38 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com>, , , Message-ID: Why is it that you see piles of terminals and computers without keyboards? Of course, there are piles of just monitors there as well. One does wonder what is in the cardboard boxes. Not enough to mke a trip though. Dwight From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 21 23:00:57 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:00:57 -0500 Subject: floating the DUT and isolation transformers Message-ID: <50ADB189.4030001@verizon.net> I'm looking to help protect against frying my DUTs, oscilloscopes, logic analyzers during testing. I've been thinking about purchasing an isolation transformers, and I've watched a couple video blog entries on the subject. [1] While I'm pretty careful what I'm probing, I don't want an inadvertent short of the test equipment ground to the positive supply rail off my DUT to blow stuff up. The strategy I intend on using is this: 1. Connect the primary side ground of the isolation transformer to ground with a normal(US) 3-prong plug. 2. Float the DUT by using a 3-prong to 2-prong adapter when plugging into the secondary side of the transformer. 3. Keep the o'scope or LA grounded with a normal 3-prong plug. My DUT for the most part is a commodore amiga that has an external 120v to +12v,-12v, and +5v power supply. I'm not intending on opening supplies, troubleshooting/repairing them or generally touching anything that has live mains power following through it. The signals I'm probing are generally ground-referenced single-ended signals. Does this approach sound reasonable? I'm looking for practical actionable advice. I'm looking at the BK1604A. [2] Thanks, Keith [1] http://www.toddfun.com/2011/04/30/isolation_transformers/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ (which is eevblog #279) [2] http://www.tequipment.net/BK1604A.html# From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 21 23:38:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:38:33 -0700 Subject: floating the DUT and isolation transformers In-Reply-To: <50ADB189.4030001@verizon.net> References: <50ADB189.4030001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50ADBA59.1030301@brouhaha.com> Keith Monahan wrote: > My DUT for the most part is a commodore amiga that has an external > 120v to +12v,-12v, and +5v power supply. I'm not intending on opening > supplies, troubleshooting/repairing them or generally touching > anything that has live mains power following through it. Generally speaking, the power supply (internal or external) for any UL-listed computer (and most others) is isolated from the mains power, so there's no problem with probing it with a scope or logic analyzer. It's only when you're working on the power supply itself that you'd be likely to run into trouble. A common situation where people have damaged their test equipment is working on a "hot chassis" (non-isolated) television. I haven't ever seen a hot-chassis solid-state computer. I don't know whether many tube-based computers were hot-chassis. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 01:05:36 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:05:36 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: if theres any 720k floppy drives i would like some. i've got a ge workmaster that needs new drives but i am in canada with out a passport or a means of coming to this wearhouse :( From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Nov 21 22:01:28 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:01:28 -0500 Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I have 15 DC100A's in excellent condition. Depending on where you are located You could have them for the cost of postage cheaply.. Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Elmquist" To: "Classic Computer Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:11 PM Subject: rebuilding DC100A cartridges? > I've recently restored a DEC TU58 dual-transport tape system but am > finding that 30+ year old DC100A cartridges are perhaps past the end of > their useful life. > > The belts in many of them have rotted and broken. > > There are still some places you can get new cartridges, but they are > more than $40 a piece. > > Has anyone found a way to source and replace the broken belts? > > I am not interested in preserving the data on the tapes as much as I > am interested in just having working tapes... so I don't get ahead by > moving a belt from a "good" cartridge to a bad one. I'm interested in > trying to repair the bad cartridges. > > I've seen the writeup here, for the HP 9845 and its DC100As, > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/savetapes/index.html > > but that doesn't tell us what to do about broken belts other than to > steal them from other cartridges... > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Nov 22 02:37:15 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 08:37:15 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: Heh. I never said I actually took any notice of her. On 22 November 2012 04:04, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 21 Nov 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > > I want that Apple ///! >> >> Sorry, your wife called and said you can't have it. Mumbled something > about shoving it up something and then hung up. > > > :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll - > Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Nov 22 02:37:17 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:37:17 +0100 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: <50ADE43D.8030702@update.uu.se> Wow Cindy, just wow! There are some gems in there. I wish you luck on the 1st and that the guys that show up are honest :) I'll unfortunately have to state what others have (and will): To bad there is an ocean between us! Regards, Pontus On 11/21/2012 10:07 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please see > https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November212012 > > > > If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 08:47:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:47:39 +0000 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 November 2012 11:54, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:02 , Jules Richardson wrote: > >> There are probably cases of certain OSes refusing to run because the host platform has _too much_ RAM, but I'm struggling to think of any right now. > > Different versions of Windows 2000 have (artificial) limitations on the maximum hardware specs: Workstation supports up to two CPU's and four GB of RAM, Server handles up to four CPU's, Advanced Server up to eight CPU's and eight GB of RAM, and Datacenter Server supports up to 32 CPU's and 64 GB RAM. > > I strongly suspect these limitations are in fact artificial, since Win2K Workstation will support four CPU's on the SiliconGraphics Visual Workstation 540 if it is installed as an upgrade over the SGI-specific four-CPU install of NT4. The #CPUs limit is artificial. The RAM one is not, inasmuch as W2K was only ever 32-bit (and XP vastly predominantly 32-bit) and without PAE a 32-bit x86 OS can only address 4GB of memory address space. Why XP still wants 3-4GB of pagefile on a machine with 3-4GB of RAM, therefore, is left as an exercise for the reader. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 08:57:23 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:57:23 +0000 Subject: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15) In-Reply-To: <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> References: <50A6BA08.5060803@neurotica.com> <20121117092557.78aec2c3f78e989eb7021234@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A74DEA.2040300@gmail.com> <20121117122727.e785a0264f13b17b44d2bdae@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50A7A8BF.1040700@telegraphics.com.au> <201211171823.qAHINKb1012196@billy.ezwind.net> <50A81568.8090907@telegraphics.com.au> <77FAB673-0366-4651-B799-E37866B73F02@gmail.com> <20121119005410.GB21652@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201211190157.UAA20101@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50ABFDFE.1010105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20 November 2012 22:02, Jules Richardson wrote: > > There are probably cases of > certain OSes refusing to run because the host platform has _too much_ RAM, > but I'm struggling to think of any right now. Win95 tops out quite low - 512MB of RAM or something like that, and I think some timing loops fail on a machine of over 500MHz or something. Ref: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08/14/54640.aspx Win98 struggled with over 768MB of RAM but that was fixed in 98SE, I think. Ref: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/253912 Ah, apparently *all* the Win9x codebase struggles with approaching a gig. For some of them, you can't /install/ with more than a certain amount, but once it's running you can put the extra RAM back in. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 09:07:17 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 15:07:17 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On 21 November 2012 21:07, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please see > https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November212012 > > If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. I just ran out of boggle. My boggle-gland can't secrete any more in one go. My covetousness centres are functioning just fine, though. Colour Classics. SEs, or are they SE/30s? Tons of disks. IBM printers new in box. I could walk away, or at least drive off in a large van, with a good entire collection out of that lot. Sponsor me for a green card and I'll move over, catalogue it and sell it gradually for you! :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 22 09:11:08 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:11:08 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <395804D27AEE4EB2BBA7C7E0A49AA97A@tababook> References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <50AD4319.8010803@brouhaha.com> <20121121213554.GF18713@n0jcf.net> <395804D27AEE4EB2BBA7C7E0A49AA97A@tababook> Message-ID: <20121122151107.GV29604@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (11/21/2012 at 07:42PM -0200), Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > >I have (4) unopened tapes and a few "beaters" that seem to still work > >so this may be all I can work with going forward-- unless a replacement > >belt scheme pans out. > > Chris, what is the problem with recovering a DC100A for service? > If I'm not mistaken I have some tens of these tapes stored...Is it > expensive where you live? Shipping from Brazil would be expensive > for a free pack of 10 or 20 tapes? Alexandre, Thank you for the reply and the offer-- Here in the US, these tapes are now very rare. There are a few sellers that have old stock and are selling them for US $40 or more each. And, unfortunately, they are not DEC formatted-- they are just raw DC100A-- so will not work directly in the TU58 drive. If you have DEC formatted DC100A for the TU58, I would be interested in making a deal with you. I don't much much experience shipping to/from Brazil but I don't think the issue will be weight-- only customs/tariffs, etc. So, let me know if you have DC100A that are intended for the TU58 and we'll see if we can make a plan. Thank you again! Chris St. Paul, MN USA -- Chris Elmquist From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 09:31:11 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:31:11 -0200 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) References: <20121120181104.GE13945@n0jcf.net> <50AD4319.8010803@brouhaha.com> <20121121213554.GF18713@n0jcf.net> <395804D27AEE4EB2BBA7C7E0A49AA97A@tababook> <20121122151107.GV29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: No, mine are the "plain" type and not TU-58 formatted...Sorry for being of no help :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Elmquist" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:11 PM Subject: Re: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) > On Wednesday (11/21/2012 at 07:42PM -0200), Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >> >> >I have (4) unopened tapes and a few "beaters" that seem to still work >> >so this may be all I can work with going forward-- unless a replacement >> >belt scheme pans out. >> >> Chris, what is the problem with recovering a DC100A for service? >> If I'm not mistaken I have some tens of these tapes stored...Is it >> expensive where you live? Shipping from Brazil would be expensive >> for a free pack of 10 or 20 tapes? > > Alexandre, > > Thank you for the reply and the offer-- Here in the US, these tapes > are now very rare. There are a few sellers that have old stock and are > selling them for US $40 or more each. And, unfortunately, they are not > DEC formatted-- they are just raw DC100A-- so will not work directly in > the TU58 drive. > > If you have DEC formatted DC100A for the TU58, I would be interested in > making a deal with you. I don't much much experience shipping to/from > Brazil but I don't think the issue will be weight-- only customs/tariffs, > etc. > > So, let me know if you have DC100A that are intended for the TU58 and > we'll > see if we can make a plan. > > Thank you again! > > Chris > St. Paul, MN USA > -- > Chris Elmquist From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 10:10:50 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 08:10:50 -0800 Subject: floating the DUT and isolation transformers In-Reply-To: <50ADBA59.1030301@brouhaha.com> References: <50ADB189.4030001@verizon.net>,<50ADBA59.1030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Of course, it is possible for the power supply to short, making things that were not intended to be hot, hot. I once worked on a machine that I noticed the ground plug pin was cut. I later found that it was because the input line filter was shorted and they'd cut the ground wire to keep from popping the breaker. The only outside equipment that it was connected to was a phone modem that was run from a wall wort( no other ground path ). Dwight > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:38:33 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: floating the DUT and isolation transformers > > Keith Monahan wrote: > > My DUT for the most part is a commodore amiga that has an external > > 120v to +12v,-12v, and +5v power supply. I'm not intending on opening > > supplies, troubleshooting/repairing them or generally touching > > anything that has live mains power following through it. > > Generally speaking, the power supply (internal or external) for any > UL-listed computer (and most others) is isolated from the mains power, > so there's no problem with probing it with a scope or logic analyzer. > It's only when you're working on the power supply itself that you'd be > likely to run into trouble. > > A common situation where people have damaged their test equipment is > working on a "hot chassis" (non-isolated) television. I haven't ever > seen a hot-chassis solid-state computer. I don't know whether many > tube-based computers were hot-chassis. > From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Thu Nov 22 10:58:59 2012 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 16:58:59 -0000 Subject: Free to a Good Home : uVAXes, LN03, LA210, 1" Instrumentation Recorders, etc [Dorset UK] Message-ID: The following "stuff" is free to a good home - downsizing the boneyard. Although, if any of it is genuinely rare or valuable I may change my mind. The deal is the usual one : collection from Portland, Dorset, UK; first come first served; collection prior to Xmas '12; no warranty as to specifics or condition; reasonable questions answered in a reasonable timescale. The highlights are: - some small (micro) VAXes - four 1" instrumentation recorders - an LN03 + consumables - an LA210 on a plinth in a large wooden box - geriatric test instruments of marginal serviceability - numerous old scopes requiring repair - some (partial) EPROM programmers "Collectors Items" 4 off SE7000 1" Instrumentation tape recorders + 2 sets of manuals + spare channel cards 1 off LA210 (I think) printer in a wooden box 1 off HP 1652B Logic Analyser [fails BIT] 1 off HP 1600A Logic Analyser [condition unknown] 1 off HP 3561 Spectrum Analyser (audio rather than RF) [flaky] 2 off HP 1200 ? storage CRO mainframes 1 off LN03 laser printer for VAXen + supplies 3 off MDB boxes for RD54 drives (c/w caddies - no disks) 1 off microVax 3400 2 off VAX 4000-200 "Junk" Fax machine - laser print very dirty (not used for several years) HP G55 USB inkjet (not used for several years) 9 off VGA monitors Stag Eprom Eraser - condition unknown Stag Gang Programmer - no PC interface, might be serial Telequipment D83 2 ch CRO 4 off [condition unknown] Gould "3000" 2 ch CRO 2 off [condition unknown] Gould OS250 CRO 2 off [condition unknown] Gould 3500 Cro 1 off [condition unknown] Gould 4050 Cro 1 off [condition unknown] Telequipment D75 1 off [condition unknown] Telequipment D66 1 off [condition unknown] [Telequipment may be worth a 3 out of 6 attempt; Goulds look more suited to breaking up; but you never know] Philips PM3295 1 off [voltage multiplier failed and unobtainium => scrap / parts] SCSI disk enclosures [condition unknown, PSU salvage ?] "Total" Junk - job lot of unservicable PSUs etc If you know of any 3rd parties with a serious use for this sort of kit, suggest they contact me. The last resort for disposition of much of this will be WEEE. Martin From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 11:20:54 2012 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:20:54 +0000 Subject: Free to a Good Home : uVAXes, LN03, LA210, 1" Instrumentation Recorders, etc [Dorset UK] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 November 2012 16:58, Martin Bishop wrote: > The following "stuff" is free to a good home - downsizing the boneyard. > Although, if any of it is genuinely rare or valuable I may change my > mind. > > > > The deal is the usual one : collection from Portland, Dorset, UK; first > come first served; collection prior to Xmas '12; no warranty as to > specifics or condition; reasonable questions answered in a reasonable > timescale. > > > > The highlights are: > > - some small (micro) VAXes > > - four 1" instrumentation recorders > > - an LN03 + consumables > > - an LA210 on a plinth in a large wooden box > > - geriatric test instruments of marginal serviceability > > - numerous old scopes requiring repair > > - some (partial) EPROM programmers > > > > "Collectors Items" > > 4 off SE7000 1" Instrumentation tape recorders + 2 sets of manuals + > spare channel cards > > 1 off LA210 (I think) printer in a wooden box > > 1 off HP 1652B Logic Analyser [fails BIT] > > 1 off HP 1600A Logic Analyser [condition unknown] > > 1 off HP 3561 Spectrum Analyser (audio rather than RF) [flaky] > > 2 off HP 1200 ? storage CRO mainframes > > 1 off LN03 laser printer for VAXen + supplies > > 3 off MDB boxes for RD54 drives (c/w caddies - no disks) > > 1 off microVax 3400 > > 2 off VAX 4000-200 > > > > "Junk" > > Fax machine - laser print very dirty (not used for several years) > > HP G55 USB inkjet (not used for several years) > > 9 off VGA monitors > > Stag Eprom Eraser - condition unknown > > Stag Gang Programmer - no PC interface, might be serial > > Telequipment D83 2 ch CRO 4 off [condition unknown] > > Gould "3000" 2 ch CRO 2 off [condition unknown] > > Gould OS250 CRO 2 off [condition unknown] > > Gould 3500 Cro 1 off [condition unknown] > > Gould 4050 Cro 1 off [condition unknown] > > Telequipment D75 1 off [condition unknown] > > Telequipment D66 1 off [condition unknown] > > [Telequipment may be worth a 3 out of 6 attempt; Goulds look more suited > to breaking up; but you never know] > > Philips PM3295 1 off [voltage multiplier failed and unobtainium => scrap > / parts] > > SCSI disk enclosures [condition unknown, PSU salvage ?] > > "Total" Junk - job lot of unservicable PSUs etc > > > > If you know of any 3rd parties with a serious use for this sort of kit, > suggest they contact me. > > > > The last resort for disposition of much of this will be WEEE. > > > > Martin > > > > > Hi, I am interested in the Microvaxes that are on your list. I would also be interested in the the 4000/200 and the 3400 dependent on how much you would like for them. They only problem is cash is a bit short and I know you wanted them moved before Christmas, Thanks Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 11:21:44 2012 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:21:44 +0000 Subject: Free to a Good Home : uVAXes, LN03, LA210, 1" Instrumentation Recorders, etc [Dorset UK] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for the noise, should of been off-list. Dan From david at hheng.plus.com Thu Nov 22 04:17:01 2012 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:17:01 -0000 Subject: floating the DUT and isolation transformers References: <50ADB189.4030001@verizon.net> <50ADBA59.1030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <002101cdc89a$837d2cf0$1003a8c0@HHE8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 5:38 AM Subject: Re: floating the DUT and isolation transformers > Keith Monahan wrote: >> My DUT for the most part is a commodore amiga that has an external 120v >> to +12v,-12v, and +5v power supply. I'm not intending on opening >> supplies, troubleshooting/repairing them or generally touching anything >> that has live mains power following through it. > > Generally speaking, the power supply (internal or external) for any > UL-listed computer (and most others) is isolated from the mains power, so > there's no problem with probing it with a scope or logic analyzer. It's > only when you're working on the power supply itself that you'd be likely > to run into trouble. > > A common situation where people have damaged their test equipment is > working on a "hot chassis" (non-isolated) television. I haven't ever seen > a hot-chassis solid-state computer. I don't know whether many tube-based > computers were hot-chassis. Almost certainly not , the only reason for the live chassis on a TV was to avoide the cost of a mains transformer. Dave > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2629/5409 - Release Date: 11/21/12 > From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Thu Nov 22 12:06:45 2012 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 18:06:45 -0000 Subject: Free to a Good Home : uVAXes, LN03, LA210, 1" Instrumentation Recorders, etc [Dorset UK] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan There are only 3 VAXes on the list, for the avoidance of doubt: 1 off uVAX 3400 2 off VAX 4000-200 I'm not looking for anything for them, yours for the effort of collecting them. All three system units are intact and have not (I believe) been stores robbed. My (classic) interest is in BA23/123 systems. Make me a proposal re collection : I can do 24 x 7 (within reason and subject to arrangement). Regards Martin Hi, I am interested in the Microvaxes that are on your list. I would also be interested in the the 4000/200 and the 3400 dependent on how much you would like for them. They only problem is cash is a bit short and I know you wanted them moved before Christmas, Thanks Dan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 22 13:08:58 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:08:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50ADE43D.8030702@update.uu.se> from Pontus at "Nov 22, 12 09:37:17 am" Message-ID: <201211221908.qAMJ8wCh23134376@floodgap.com> > > For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please see > > https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November212012 > > > > If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. > > Wow Cindy, just wow! What are those Unisys units in there? Are those Mac SEs or SE/30s? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Cold Wave Linked To Temperatures --------------- From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 13:54:57 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 19:54:57 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: <2030000614-1353614098-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1460105689-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Thanks a bunch for the pics! I'm sure everyone is excited. I'll be there on the 1st if that's ok. Was there an official time you wanted to shoot for? -----Original Message----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:07:30 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics For those who want to see pics of the warehouse in Kerrville, TX, please see https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/November212012 If you can't come on Dec 1, email me what you are interested in. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5908 - Release Date: 11/20/12 From saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Nov 22 15:45:55 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 16:45:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? Message-ID: <8CF9711E24871DC-F44-AA2D@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> I have a non-CC HP device that has developed issues, probably because of a combination of the lead-free transition and usual Chinese quality. I'm planning on attempting a re-solder by reflowing in an oven (no hot-air rework station yet). It seems as though it would be best to find some way to flux the balls to ensure that the connection is good. I'm not removing the chip, so would a solution of rosin flux diluted in alcohol and dripped onto the BGA work? Any better way, or is it unnecessary? My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 16:00:59 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:00:59 +0100 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) Message-ID: Hello. I have a VAX730 with both TU58 drives destroyed (capstan melted, need replacements). I also have a bunch of cassettes, but unfortunately all seem to have problems with the bend and/or bad spots on the tape. Possibly I would try to replace the broken bands (if I find a source) and/or replace the magnetic tape when damaged (I was thinking to try with audio cassette tape, don' t know if metal oxide high density tape could be good for it). Anybody has some information about the coercivity of original DEC TU58 tape? One problem indeed is the need of reformatting the tape, but: if I can emulate the TU58 drive using a serial, would it be possible to send raw commands to the drive using the serial and a PC? Andrea PS-If possible, some good-condition cassette would be very useful to me too. I'm located in Italy. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 16:28:03 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 16:28:03 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Colour Classics. SEs, or are they SE/30s? Tons of disks. IBM printers > new in box. Even more interesting, I think those are NiB IBM *plotters*. I'm curious if they are IBM's own, re-badged HP, like some of Digital's were, or some other make. Cindy, if there's anything in the warehouse that would be easy-ish to ship, perhaps an already-boxed plotter would be it. Any interest in sending one out (in the US?) -j From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 20:23:50 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 00:23:50 -0200 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? References: <8CF9711E24871DC-F44-AA2D@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <91835CCC3075491B804D91E4BFFCFA29@tababook> DV-series notebook? :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Quinn" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:45 PM Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? I have a non-CC HP device that has developed issues, probably because of a combination of the lead-free transition and usual Chinese quality. I'm planning on attempting a re-solder by reflowing in an oven (no hot-air rework station yet). It seems as though it would be best to find some way to flux the balls to ensure that the connection is good. I'm not removing the chip, so would a solution of rosin flux diluted in alcohol and dripped onto the BGA work? Any better way, or is it unnecessary? My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 20:24:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 00:24:48 -0200 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: I'd die for one of that //GS...But unfortunately I'm in Brazil :( :( :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Colour Classics. SEs, or are they SE/30s? Tons of disks. IBM printers >> new in box. > > Even more interesting, I think those are NiB IBM *plotters*. I'm > curious if they are IBM's own, re-badged HP, like some of Digital's > were, or some other make. > > Cindy, if there's anything in the warehouse that would be easy-ish to > ship, perhaps an already-boxed plotter would be it. Any interest in > sending one out (in the US?) > > -j From saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Nov 22 22:39:40 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:39:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? Message-ID: <8CF974BAF32B194-F44-BB0C@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> Alexandre intoned: > DV-series notebook? :) > [...] > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott Quinn" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:45 PM >Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? > > >I have a non-CC HP device >[...] Nope, HP LaserJet p20somethingorother printer. Controller board developed random errors from time to time. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 22:51:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 02:51:03 -0200 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? References: <8CF974BAF32B194-F44-BB0C@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <26269368FC0D44548CC11777477176CF@tababook> Alexandre intoned: > DV-series notebook? :) >Nope, HP LaserJet p20somethingorother printer. Controller board developed >random >errors from time to time. Call me amazed :oO I never though that a Laserjet could develop failures like that :o( It is an end to an era! Remember I saw some threads around the net talking about this kind of failure in a Jetdirect 615 card. Mine came broken, I put a jetdirect 610 in its place (HP LJ 4600) BTW, anyone with repair/use tips for the Laserjet 4600? It is my first color laser printer :) And it may retire my old' lady HP4100 :'( (Is this old enough to deserve a thread here?) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 22 23:17:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 00:17:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: <26269368FC0D44548CC11777477176CF@tababook> References: <8CF974BAF32B194-F44-BB0C@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> <26269368FC0D44548CC11777477176CF@tababook> Message-ID: <201211230517.AAA11530@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Nope, HP LaserJet p20somethingorother printer. > Call me amazed :oO I never though that a Laserjet could develop > failures like that :o( It is an end to an era! Yeah...I have a LaserJet IIISi. That thing is built like a frickin' *tank*. I had a filter cap on one of the logic boards - not in the power supply - fail; it must have failed shorted or something, because it had arced enough to eat something like halfway through the board at that point. I unsoldered it, cleaned off the area as best I could, soldered a replacement in place, and it's worked fine ever since - apparently it didn't take out anything crucial; while it's surely at least partly luck, I was pretty impressed. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 23:31:26 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 03:31:26 -0200 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? References: <8CF974BAF32B194-F44-BB0C@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> <26269368FC0D44548CC11777477176CF@tababook> <201211230517.AAA11530@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Wow, I didn't remembered that printer, how beautiful!!! :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 3:17 AM Subject: Re: BGA resoldering - flux? >>> Nope, HP LaserJet p20somethingorother printer. >> Call me amazed :oO I never though that a Laserjet could develop >> failures like that :o( It is an end to an era! > > Yeah...I have a LaserJet IIISi. That thing is built like a frickin' > *tank*. I had a filter cap on one of the logic boards - not in the > power supply - fail; it must have failed shorted or something, because > it had arced enough to eat something like halfway through the board at > that point. I unsoldered it, cleaned off the area as best I could, > soldered a replacement in place, and it's worked fine ever since - > apparently it didn't take out anything crucial; while it's surely at > least partly luck, I was pretty impressed. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Nov 23 02:24:45 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 08:24:45 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On 23 November 2012 02:24, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I'd die for one of that //GS...But unfortunately I'm in Brazil :( :( :( > At least you don't have an ocean between you... :-) TBH most of what I've seen isn't really of primary interest to me, but it IS the sort of place I'd absolutely love to spend a day wandering around and digging through "just in case"! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Nov 23 02:34:01 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 08:34:01 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On 23 November 2012 02:24, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I'd die for one of that //GS...But unfortunately I'm in Brazil :( :( :( > I hear ya. I always wanted one back in the day, but I couldn't afford it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 03:53:46 2012 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 09:53:46 +0000 Subject: Free to a Good Home : uVAXes, LN03, LA210, 1" Instrumentation Recorders, etc [Dorset UK] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7411861693159899178@unknownmsgid> Hi, If it convenient I can come down on Tuesday. Traffic permitting it should be around 1pm. Is that ok ? Thanks Dan On 22 Nov 2012, at 18:09, Martin Bishop wrote: > Dan > > There are only 3 VAXes on the list, for the avoidance of doubt: > 1 off uVAX 3400 > 2 off VAX 4000-200 > > I'm not looking for anything for them, yours for the effort of > collecting them. All three system units are intact and have not (I > believe) been stores robbed. My (classic) interest is in BA23/123 > systems. > > Make me a proposal re collection : I can do 24 x 7 (within reason and > subject to arrangement). > > Regards > > Martin > > > Hi, > > I am interested in the Microvaxes that are on your list. > I would also be interested in the the 4000/200 and the 3400 dependent > on how much you would like for them. > They only problem is cash is a bit short and I know you wanted them > moved before Christmas, > > > Thanks > Dan > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 03:59:04 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 09:59:04 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On 23 November 2012 08:34, John Many Jars wrote: > On 23 November 2012 02:24, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >> >> I'd die for one of that //GS...But unfortunately I'm in Brazil :( :( :( >> > > I hear ya. I always wanted one back in the day, but I couldn't afford it. Same here too. Of all the exotic kit I goggled at and lusted after at computer shows in the mid-1980s when I was a student in London, I would have a tough time deciding between an Apple IIgs and an Amiga 1000. The Atari ST didn't even come close at the time - not until the Abaq. But today, I have an Amiga 1200 with a 68030, 8MB of RAM and a hard disk. I never play with it, of course. So now, I long for an Apple IIgs... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 23 09:06:36 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 09:06:36 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (11/22/2012 at 11:00PM +0100), shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > I have a VAX730 with both TU58 drives destroyed (capstan melted, need > replacements). > I also have a bunch of cassettes, but unfortunately all seem to have > problems with the bend and/or bad spots on the tape. > Possibly I would try to replace the broken bands (if I find a source) > and/or replace the magnetic tape when damaged (I was thinking to try > with audio cassette tape, don' t know if metal oxide high density tape > could be good for it). > Anybody has some information about the coercivity of original DEC TU58 tape? > One problem indeed is the need of reformatting the tape, but: if I can > emulate the TU58 drive using a serial, would it be possible to send > raw commands to the drive using the serial and a PC? It's more than just sending the correct serial command, at least for the original DEC Tape II, for which the documentation is here, http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/dectape/EK-0TU58-UG-001_TU58ug.pdf There is no command in the set to accomplish formatting. So, as Eric pointed out in an earlier message, it would require different firmware (at least for the DEC Tape II) to accomplish it. The above document also discusses some parameters of the tape itself. I do have some DC100A that are not DEC labeled. They are just Scotch (3M) brand and have a hand written "DEC" paper label stuck to them. This suggests to me that someone had a method for formatting them. Other labeling on the tapes suggests VAX 4500 (?) may have been involved so I wonder if it was possible to format raw DC100A on some flavors of VAX? I found replacement capstans on eBay and waited until they went "on sale" and then nabbed a couple. They too are rare. I wonder if there's something that could be applied to keep them from degrading again? My TU58 spent its days prior to restoration in a particularly bad environment. A hot, humid barn. This surely helped the rubber capstan degrade and also caused rusting on a number of the metal components-- in particular the motor shaft where that capstan is mounted. Even though the capstan is an aluminum hub, the rusted motor shaft held onto it like they were one piece. I really struggled to get the capstan off, finally heating the whole shaft and capstan with a 150W soldering iron and then hammering on it with a hammer and center punch to break it loose. > PS-If possible, some good-condition cassette would be very useful to > me too. I'm located in Italy. I think the challenge is on :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 10:28:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 08:28:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: <20121122172116.J34809@shell.lmi.net> References: <8CF9711E24871DC-F44-AA2D@webmail-m069.sysops.aol.com> <20121122141355.A28128@shell.lmi.net> <20121122142137.E28128@shell.lmi.net> <20121122172116.J34809@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121123082818.P57681@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: > My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool > down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? From saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Nov 23 12:18:15 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 13:18:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? Message-ID: <8CF97BE09B4B565-17F0-E29E@Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com> Fred noted: >On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: >> My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool >> down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? > >Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? I'm not entirely sure. 60/40 solder melts at around 360, so I was putting a bit of a fudge factor in for lead free. There's few standards (or too many) for lead-free solder, it seems. Would thinned rosin flux work? Alexandre - the earlier LaserJets are and were very good, up to about the 4000 series. Since then it's been much more hit and miss. Quite coincidentally they also shifted production to China, but I'm sure there's absolutely no connection. From sales at elecplus.com Fri Nov 23 12:25:34 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:25:34 -0600 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: <8CF97BE09B4B565-17F0-E29E@Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF97BE09B4B565-17F0-E29E@Webmail-m110.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <003401cdc9a7$edc7fb40$c957f1c0$@com> If you REALLY want to solder it, just for old time's sake, great. The other route is to go to partsurfer.hp.com, enter the model number of the laser jet, and then look at the parts list. You will have to enter your country before it will give you a list of parts. Once you find the exact pn you need, do a Google or similar search, and the parts can usually be obtained for very little. I have a color laserjet here in good working order, probably needs new pickup rollers from sitting, but they are VERY unwieldy to ship. Are you anywhere close to Texas? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Quinn Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 12:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: BGA resoldering - flux? Fred noted: >On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: >> My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then >> cool down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? > >Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? I'm not entirely sure. 60/40 solder melts at around 360, so I was putting a bit of a fudge factor in for lead free. There's few standards (or too many) for lead-free solder, it seems. Would thinned rosin flux work? Alexandre - the earlier LaserJets are and were very good, up to about the 4000 series. Since then it's been much more hit and miss. Quite coincidentally they also shifted production to China, but I'm sure there's absolutely no connection. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5912 - Release Date: 11/22/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5912 - Release Date: 11/22/12 From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Nov 23 13:32:33 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:32:33 +0000 Subject: Windows memory requirements [was RE: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:57 AM > Ah, apparently *all* the Win9x codebase struggles with approaching a > gig. > For some of them, you can't /install/ with more than a certain amount, > but once it's running you can put the extra RAM back in. Not just the 9x systems. Back when I was doing systems administration at XKL, I brought in a new Dell server (dual Pentium 3 Xeons, 4GB RAM in 1 card, you know, little box for 1997 :-) running NT 4.0 Terminal Server. As I was adding engineering applications to the base install, a DLL got overwritten, the box crashed, and I had to re-install from the ground up--beginning about 19:00 on a Friday night. Long story short, I was on the phone to Round Rock from about 21:00 till 06:00 the next morning, struggling with the install, which would die at the point where the system re-boots to run from the disk instead of the CD. Turned out that the install version could not run in more than 1GB. After the shift change at Dell, the new guy on the phone said he thought there was a BIOS setting which would handle the issue, rather than my having to have a 1GB card FedEx'd for Monday morning. Yup, the BIOS indeed had a setting which was named roughly "Pretend I have only 256MB in this box". Gack. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cctech at vax-11.org Fri Nov 23 13:43:03 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:43:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers In-Reply-To: <0JNI007L7DGGGBN7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JNI007L7DGGGBN7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: >From the history books.... On Tue, 28 Aug 2007, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Gooey TU58 rollers >> From: "Ethan Dicks" >> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:39:20 -0500 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> On 8/27/07, B M wrote: >>> I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 machine up and running. It looks like the TU58 drive >>> is suffering from the 'gooey roller syndrome'. >> >> Unsurprising. >> >>> I see that people have successfully used 1/2 inch (ID) Tygon tubing to replace the >>> goo. Is there any specific type of Tygon tubing (eg. R3603, R2000, etc.) that is used? >> >> I don't know the particular variety I used in mine - I just went to >> the Lowe's down the street and bought a foot of 1/2" ID tubing - >> whatever they had on the shelf. I was unaware of a large amount of >> varieties of tubing, so I just used what they had in stock, and it >> worked perfectly. >> >> -ethan > > I started that many years ago like 1995ish. I spec'd Tygon (brnad name) > as that was available to me. Most any generic Vinyl tubing works so long > as it fits tight and has enough wall thickness. > > After about 10 years it tends to get hard, the fix is obvious. > > Allison > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 14:25:30 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:25:30 -0800 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> Anyone know what this is ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-VT100-no-monitor-or-keyboard-VT-100-TEST-BOX-/330833250257 From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 14:31:33 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:31:33 -0800 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 23, 2012 12:28 PM, "mc68010" wrote: > > Anyone know what this is ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-VT100-no-monitor-or-keyboard-VT-100-TEST-BOX-/330833250257 That VT100 terminal box goes with a VS11/VSV11 raster graphics system for a PDP-11. In the VSV11 Interconnection Diagram on page 9 of this manual it is shown as a VT100-LA or LB (I think the only difference there is 115/220): http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/MP01102_VS11_Engineering_Drawings_Mar81.pdf In the VS11-FX/HX/JX Raster Graphics System Installation Manual EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 there are illustrations of this box being used in combination with a VRV02-AA/AB color monitor where the box is refered to as the "keyboard interface box" and the combination of the monitor and the "keyboard interface box" makes up the VRV02-FA/FB. The "keyboard interface box" video output feeds into the VS11 where the terminal video output is then fed back out along with the VS11 raster graphics output to the monitor. I can't find an online copy of the EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 manual anywhere. I have an original hard copy of the manual. From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Nov 23 14:33:43 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 14:33:43 -0600 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: I found this post, which seems related: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-March/177316.html Garrett Meiers On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 2:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Anyone know what this is ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/** > DIGITAL-DEC-VT100-no-monitor-**or-keyboard-VT-100-TEST-BOX-/**330833250257 > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 14:37:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 15:37:30 -0500 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50AFDE8A.9060509@neurotica.com> On 11/23/2012 03:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Anyone know what this is ? > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-VT100-no-monitor-or-keyboard-VT-100-TEST-BOX-/330833250257 I have no idea of what this might have been intended for, but it seems obvious that it's simply a version of the VT100 that lacks a monitor. Since the standard VT100 board has an NTSC video output on a BNC connector, one could certainly use this with an external monitor. Very interesting, and very odd! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 14:38:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 15:38:40 -0500 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50AFDED0.3020101@neurotica.com> On 11/23/2012 03:31 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Anyone know what this is ? > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-VT100-no-monitor-or-keyboard-VT-100-TEST-BOX-/330833250257 > > That VT100 terminal box goes with a VS11/VSV11 raster graphics system for a > PDP-11. > > In the VSV11 Interconnection Diagram on page 9 of this manual it is shown > as a VT100-LA or LB (I think the only difference there is 115/220): > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/MP01102_VS11_Engineering_Drawings_Mar81.pdf > > In the VS11-FX/HX/JX Raster Graphics System Installation Manual > EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 there are illustrations of this box being used in > combination with a VRV02-AA/AB color monitor where the box is refered to as > the "keyboard interface box" and the combination of the monitor and the > "keyboard interface box" makes up the VRV02-FA/FB. > > The "keyboard interface box" video output feeds into the VS11 where the > terminal video output is then fed back out along with the VS11 raster > graphics output to the monitor. > > I can't find an online copy of the EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 manual anywhere. I have > an original hard copy of the manual. Oh wow...NEAT! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 14:44:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:44:16 -0800 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50AFE020.6000606@gmail.com> On 11/23/2012 12:31 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Nov 23, 2012 12:28 PM, "mc68010" wrote: >> Anyone know what this is ? > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-VT100-no-monitor-or-keyboard-VT-100-TEST-BOX-/330833250257 > > That VT100 terminal box goes with a VS11/VSV11 raster graphics system for a > PDP-11. > > In the VSV11 Interconnection Diagram on page 9 of this manual it is shown > as a VT100-LA or LB (I think the only difference there is 115/220): > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/MP01102_VS11_Engineering_Drawings_Mar81.pdf > > That's a pretty neat setup. Anyone have one of those running at home ? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 14:56:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:56:14 -0800 Subject: Windows memory requirements [was RE: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50AFE2EE.4000503@sydex.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:57 AM > Ah, apparently *all* the Win9x codebase struggles with approaching a > gig. > For some of them, you can't /install/ with more than a certain amount, > but once it's running you can put the extra RAM back in. On one of my systems, I run Win98SE with 1.5G of memory and dual P3s. It took a bit of doing, but fortunately others have worked out details of memory managers that make the job pretty easly. In my case, I simply set up DOS with a 1GB RAMdisk allocated from the top of memory and then installed Win98SE. No issues whatsoever. I don't know what the workaround with NT 4 would be, as there's not a DOS base to work from. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 14:13:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 20:13:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: <20121123082818.P57681@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 23, 12 08:28:36 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: > > My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool > > down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? > > Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? I doubt it, given that (a) my Weeler TCP is normally used at 700F or 800F (depending on which tip I fit) and (b) an emergenice repair to a (food cooking) oven element involing some soft-soldering of the wire end held fine for a few hopurs at around 400F. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 15:55:07 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 13:55:07 -0800 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: <50AFE020.6000606@gmail.com> References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> <50AFE020.6000606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 23, 2012 12:58 PM, "mc68010" wrote: > > That's a pretty neat setup. Anyone have one of those running at home ? I have one of those VT100 boxes and the three board set, M7061 Sync Generator, M7062 Memory, M7064 Display Processor. I need to get them installed in a system and see if they work. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 16:15:39 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:15:39 -0500 Subject: Gooey TU58 rollers In-Reply-To: References: <0JNI007L7DGGGBN7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <50AFF58B.6090000@verizon.net> On 11/23/2012 02:43 PM, cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > >> From the history books.... > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2007, Allison wrote: > >>> >>> Subject: Re: Gooey TU58 rollers >>> From: "Ethan Dicks" >>> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:39:20 -0500 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> >>> On 8/27/07, B M wrote: >>>> I am trying to get a Vax-11/750 machine up and running. It looks >>>> like the TU58 drive >>>> is suffering from the 'gooey roller syndrome'. >>> >>> Unsurprising. >>> >>>> I see that people have successfully used 1/2 inch (ID) Tygon >>>> tubing to replace the >>>> goo. Is there any specific type of Tygon tubing (eg. R3603, R2000, >>>> etc.) that is used? >>> >>> I don't know the particular variety I used in mine - I just went to >>> the Lowe's down the street and bought a foot of 1/2" ID tubing - >>> whatever they had on the shelf. I was unaware of a large amount of >>> varieties of tubing, so I just used what they had in stock, and it >>> worked perfectly. >>> >>> -ethan >> >> I started that many years ago like 1995ish. I spec'd Tygon (brnad name) >> as that was available to me. Most any generic Vinyl tubing works so >> long >> as it fits tight and has enough wall thickness. >> >> After about 10 years it tends to get hard, the fix is obvious. >> >> Allison >> > Oddly they still work fine though plan to renew the oldest one. Basically remove all the goo and use a slice of Tygon or other vinyl tuning to replace it. Allison From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 16:25:52 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 14:25:52 -0800 Subject: vt100 test box ? In-Reply-To: References: <50A50DEC.5030307@bitsavers.org> <50AFDBBA.1070105@gmail.com> <50AFE020.6000606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50AFF7F0.9060706@gmail.com> On 11/23/2012 1:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Nov 23, 2012 12:58 PM, "mc68010" wrote: >> That's a pretty neat setup. Anyone have one of those running at home ? > I have one of those VT100 boxes and the three board set, M7061 Sync > Generator, M7062 Memory, M7064 Display Processor. I need to get them > installed in a system and see if they work. Do you have a VRV02 Monitor ? I looked on google but, can't find a picture of one. Be neat to see a video of it all up running if you get it going. From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 23 17:09:18 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:09:18 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist CP/M home brew computer PCBs available! Message-ID: <002401cdc9cf$9d9e4160$d8dac420$@YAHOO.COM> Hi If anyone is interested in building their own CP/M or other hobbyist home brew computer there are plenty of N8VEM ECB PCBs available. These can be used to build your own system from scratch or to augment an existing home brew computer. The ECB standard is essentially a Z80 bus so these PCBs are easy to interface into most any home brew system. They are also reliable and easy to assemble using only through hole components (no SMT or exotic technologies). Here is the current inventory of PCBs. As you can see there are many boards still available for the ECB systems. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/PCB-Inventory The ECB PCBs are $20 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Most builders send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM but other arrangements are possible. All of the design information like schematics, PCB layout, KiCAD EDA files, software, build instructions, parts lists, etc are all free and publicly posted on the N8VEM wiki. If funds and/or PayPal is an issue, we can make trades for certain computer parts, electronic components, tools, metals, coins, unused gift cards, shipping materials, scrap, etc. Please let's discuss! Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 17:17:15 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:17:15 -0500 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B003FB.1010303@verizon.net> >> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: >>> My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool >>> down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? >> Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? > I can't see why this is an issue. The needed data has been published by the vendors WRT reflow soldering and specifically BGA reflow soldering. The required temperatures are in the 210-220degree C range (420-430 degree F). There is a recommended temperature profile for this. the total time from preheat start to cool down is about 400 seconds with the high temperature portion less than 200 seconds. See Lattice BGA Solder Reflow and Rework Recommendations ap note. Modst BGA part use a lower melting temp material to keep the active device in the comfort range (under 250C peak). The favorite hobby/small shop tool for this is the small counter top "Toaster Ovens" with an external temperature control. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 23 19:40:02 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:40:02 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > I do have some DC100A that are not DEC labeled. They are just Scotch > (3M) brand and have a hand written "DEC" paper label stuck to them. > This suggests to me that someone had a method for formatting them. > Other labeling on the tapes suggests VAX 4500 (?) may have been > involved so I wonder if it was possible to format raw DC100A on some > flavors of VAX? It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" command in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people claim that special firmware was required. As far as I can tell, the TU58 drive hardware should be perfectly capable of formatting a tape, unlike e.g. disk drives that use embedded servo. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 20:14:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:14:33 -0800 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B02D89.90407@sydex.com> On 11/23/2012 12:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I doubt it, given that (a) my Weeler TCP is normally used at 700F or 800F > (depending on which tip I fit) and (b) an emergenice repair to a (food > cooking) oven element involing some soft-soldering of the wire end held > fine for a few hopurs at around 400F. I routinely scavenge SMT components from junk boards by heating them in a toaster oven set to 350F. Components slide right off, so 400F is probably more than sufficient. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 20:31:54 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:31:54 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50B0319A.5030005@verizon.net> On 11/23/2012 08:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Chris Elmquist wrote: >> I do have some DC100A that are not DEC labeled. They are just Scotch >> (3M) brand and have a hand written "DEC" paper label stuck to them. >> This suggests to me that someone had a method for formatting them. >> Other labeling on the tapes suggests VAX 4500 (?) may have been >> involved so I wonder if it was possible to format raw DC100A on some >> flavors of VAX? > > It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" command > in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people claim that > special firmware was required. > > As far as I can tell, the TU58 drive hardware should be perfectly > capable of formatting a tape, unlike e.g. disk drives that use > embedded servo. > > Wishful thinking. I've disassembled the firmware its not there. It's not that hard to do the reason I say modded is the 8085 has only has 256bytes of ram and 2k of rom on the board. So bypassing the 8085 or extending the memory and firmware by modding the board for more rom space and maybe ram space could make the needed formatter. In the end you need the TU58 board for the drive interface and motor control. TU58 core: 8085 at 2.4576mhz (4.9152 crystal), 8155 (22 io lines, timer used for various timing needs), 2K rom, 64s004 ART (serial). Bob at Spare Time Gizmos did a TU-58 emulator using ram devices and DS5000 (8051 like) CPU back around 1995. It's still the way to go save for flash is now available. I'd buy two in a heartbeat now. Allison From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 01:58:17 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 05:58:17 -0200 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? References: Message-ID: <8996CBAC8A7642958A251CD442C41053@tababook> >> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: >> > My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then >> > cool >> > down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? >> >> Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? > > I doubt it, given that (a) my Weeler TCP is normally used at 700F or 800F > (depending on which tip I fit) and (b) an emergenice repair to a (food > cooking) oven element involing some soft-soldering of the wire end held > fine for a few hopurs at around 400F. Some ressearch into soldering temperature curves fit here...Common solder melts at around 280 degrees celcius (sorry american friends). No-Lead-Troublemaker-Solder goes a bit higher. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 02:01:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:01:56 -0200 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <64BC5499C3BE4F2698F92D8DEDA33334@tababook> > It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" command in > the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people claim that special > firmware was required. > As far as I can tell, the TU58 drive hardware should be perfectly capable > of formatting a tape, unlike e.g. disk drives that use embedded servo. If someone wills to create a formatter, I'd like to keep informed. I always had curiosity of how these things works :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 02:02:28 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:02:28 -0200 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? References: <50B02D89.90407@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I routinely scavenge SMT components from junk boards by heating them in > a toaster oven set to 350F. Components slide right off, so 400F is > probably more than sufficient. What do you use to store/catalog them, Chuck? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Nov 24 02:39:43 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 21:39:43 +1300 Subject: YouTube take on my Commodore PET 2001 32-N Message-ID: More YouTube reveals showing computers in my collection which may be of interest to some. This time my Commodore Pet 3001 32-N (CBM 3032) http://youtu.be/H42ZPSw8EE8 Terry Stewart (Tez) From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 24 03:06:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 02:06:01 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" command > in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people claim that > special firmware was required. I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only one undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out what it does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. I think I understand the code that writes a block, but of course there's no code to write an address field. Writing formatter firmware shouldn't be too hard, but it would be best to have a known good tape to examine to find out the details of the gap lengths. Eric From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Fri Nov 23 18:39:34 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:39:34 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-300 and a CQD-423 Qbus SCSI adapter questions References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I am trying to understand why a CMD CQD-423 qbus scsi adapter in my VAX4000-300 is functioning in this manner. I think it's configured properly as I can see the drives once VMS is booted, sysgen verifies the proper driver is loaded. I can mount the drives as a DUAn device. Yet from the console prompt I cannot see the drives and cannot boot from the attached SCSI drives. My goal was to retire the ancient DSSI drives on this system before they all fail, move OS and data to the SCSI drives and use SCSI as a primary OS and data drives. I have the manual, read it several times and seem to have missed something. Can this controller be used to boot from? I would think so which leads me to believe, my reading comprehension may be a stake here. Any suggestions? Dan Snyder Butler, PA From joerg.sigle at jsigle.com Fri Nov 23 23:32:55 2012 From: joerg.sigle at jsigle.com (Joerg M. Sigle) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:32:55 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 111, Issue 49 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B05C07.4060703@jsigle.com> Hi. You might google for people fixing nvidia notebook graphic boards like in the Dell M90. They report success in temperature ranges from 120 .. 200?C in their kitchen ovens for 20 minutes, where the solder may not melt, but apparenly, the heating suffices to re-establish contact for weeks thru months. I find it especially interesting that the lower temperatures also seem to work. I've even seen a poll on who tried which temperature. Sadly, who made that poll only asked for successful attempts, not failures, so their original answer on "what is the best temperature to recommend" would never be answered... Kind regards, js On 23.11.2012 19:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 18 Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 08:28:36 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" Subject: Re: BGA resoldering - flux? > Message-ID: <20121123082818.P57681 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: > TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: >> >My plan was to ramp it up to 400F in an oven, soak for 5 mins, then cool >> >down to minimize thermal issues. Does this sound good? > Is 400 degrees anywhere close to hot enough? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. med. J?rg M. Sigle +41-76-276-8694 http://www.ql-recorder.com +41-32-51-22-944 http://www.jsigle.com Have a lovely day... +49-176-964-35413 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 09:14:23 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:14:23 +0000 Subject: Windows memory requirements [was RE: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] In-Reply-To: <50AFE2EE.4000503@sydex.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <50AFE2EE.4000503@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 23 November 2012 20:56, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:57 AM > >> Ah, apparently *all* the Win9x codebase struggles with approaching a >> gig. > > >> For some of them, you can't /install/ with more than a certain amount, >> but once it's running you can put the extra RAM back in. > > > On one of my systems, I run Win98SE with 1.5G of memory and dual P3s. It > took a bit of doing, but fortunately others have worked out details of > memory managers that make the job pretty easly. In my case, I simply set up > DOS with a 1GB RAMdisk allocated from the top of memory and then installed > Win98SE. No issues whatsoever. Well, there would be the minor issue of W98 not having any trace of SMP support so one of your CPUs doing nothing at all. But apart from that, no. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 09:15:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:15:54 +0000 Subject: Windows memory requirements [was RE: Google v AltaVista - Re: Big Alphas (was Re: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1E13@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 23 November 2012 19:32, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:57 AM > >> Ah, apparently *all* the Win9x codebase struggles with approaching a >> gig. > >> For some of them, you can't /install/ with more than a certain amount, >> but once it's running you can put the extra RAM back in. > > Not just the 9x systems. > > Back when I was doing systems administration at XKL, I brought in a new > Dell server (dual Pentium 3 Xeons, 4GB RAM in 1 card, you know, little > box for 1997 :-) running NT 4.0 Terminal Server. As I was adding > engineering applications to the base install, a DLL got overwritten, the > box crashed, and I had to re-install from the ground up--beginning about > 19:00 on a Friday night. > > Long story short, I was on the phone to Round Rock from about 21:00 till > 06:00 the next morning, struggling with the install, which would die at > the point where the system re-boots to run from the disk instead of the > CD. Turned out that the install version could not run in more than 1GB. > > After the shift change at Dell, the new guy on the phone said he thought > there was a BIOS setting which would handle the issue, rather than my > having to have a 1GB card FedEx'd for Monday morning. Yup, the BIOS > indeed had a setting which was named roughly "Pretend I have only 256MB > in this box". > > Gack. Ohhhhh yes, I'd read about that and seen such a BIOS setting, but I never encountered such a well-specced box back in the NT4 days. I kinda miss NT, in a way. It was a relatively simple, clean OS, I felt I knew it pretty well inside out. Win2K is too big to know like that and the PnP stuff makes it not 100% deterministic. XP onwards, just forget it. Mind of its own. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Nov 24 09:41:39 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:41:39 -0500 Subject: S-100 LAVA PCB order pending, please Message-ID: <003f01cdca5a$4bbcbc60$e3363520$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! John Monahan and I have been working on an SVGA display compatible S-100 board and it is almost ready to go. While it is not SVGA register compatible it does allow for an economical SVGA compatible display for your S-100 system. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20LAVA Some additional discussion here on the vintage-computer.com forum http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30687 A viable PCB manufacturing order is at least 20 orders just to pay for the boards, tooling, shipping, etc. There are approximately 12 "firm" PCB requests and as soon as this project is viable I will make the manufacturing order. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch PS, if cash and/or paypal is an issue, we can make trades for certain computer parts, electronic components, tools, metals, coins, unused gift cards, shipping materials, scrap, etc. Please let's discuss! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 10:03:38 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 08:03:38 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-300 and a CQD-423 Qbus SCSI adapter questions In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: What's the output of "SHOW QBUS" and "SHOW DEV" at the console prompt? From chrise at pobox.com Sat Nov 24 13:00:11 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:00:11 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (11/24/2012 at 02:06AM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > >It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" > >command in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people > >claim that special firmware was required. > > I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only > one undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out > what it does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. > > I think I understand the code that writes a block, but of course > there's no code to write an address field. Writing formatter > firmware shouldn't be too hard, but it would be best to have a known > good tape to examine to find out the details of the gap lengths. I saved an image of the ROM while I had this unit apart but I see you guys are already way ahead. If the raw tapes more readily available, I think it would make sense to pursue the ability to format them. But since it seems even raw tapes are approaching unobtainium in any quantity, maybe it is time to revisit the solid-state emulation. Perhaps a job for a BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi these days... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 24 13:02:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:02:34 -0800 Subject: BGA resoldering - flux? In-Reply-To: References: <50B02D89.90407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50B119CA.6030908@sydex.com> On 11/24/2012 12:02 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I routinely scavenge SMT components from junk boards by heating them >> in a toaster oven set to 350F. Components slide right off, so 400F is >> probably more than sufficient. > > What do you use to store/catalog them, Chuck? Nothing special--just a bunch of those partitioned plastic boxes. --Chuck From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Nov 24 14:24:43 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:24:43 -0500 Subject: FW: [N8VEM: 15014] SCSI2IDE Progress References: <5f20ce3d-468f-4997-bd80-eea733ebd02e@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <001301cdca81$ca2fbad0$5e8f3070$@YAHOO.COM> Major progress to report on the SCSI to IDE/SD bridge project. Now the IDE subsystem and the core CPU/RAM/UART are confirmed working with the debug monitor. The SCSI subsystem is responsive and development continues on the firmware. This will be real work since the Z53C80 will be operating in target mode versus host mode but I think it is doable. It will probably will never be a speed demon but should work fine for older slower SCSI-1 devices which is the intended audience. The project is not architecture specific. At least in theory this board could be useful for a wide variety of computers such as Atari, Amiga, Mac, DEC, etc as well as less intuitive SCSI-1 using machines such as sewing machines, synthesizers, lab equipment, etc. Please contact me if you are interested in joining the development team. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:22 AM To: 'n8vem at googlegroups.com' Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 15014] SCSI2IDE Progress Thanks Wayne! That's fantastic news! Woo Hoo! Thank you very much! It sounds like we may need a change to the Flash ROM write logic. I will take a look to see if I can figure out what is causing the glitch. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From: n8vem at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Warthen Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:07 AM To: n8vem at googlegroups.com Subject: [N8VEM: 15014] SCSI2IDE Progress I'm happy to report a little progress on the SCSI2IDE front. Today, I was able to prove out the basic board with Zapple Monitor. I was also able to drop in the existing PPIDE driver from RomWBW and prove out the PPIDE interface to a CF card (basic sector read/write tests worked). Finally, I was also able to read/write the mode data on the SCSI controller chip. This is all still a bit of a hack, but definitely coming together... The 32K flash chip on the board was giving me some trouble. The chip kept getting corrupted during power on/off cycles. I finally severed the /WR line and tied it high. The chip does have a software write protect mechanism, but I was afraid to use it because I wasn't sure if my programmer would know how to unprotect it. I intend to clean up my work and post a work-in-progress build on the Wiki in a few days. -Wayne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "N8VEM" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/n8vem/-/hLjTpXsUw_cJ. To post to this group, send email to n8vem at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to n8vem+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem?hl=en. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 24 16:10:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:10:04 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50B145BC.1090004@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > As far as I can tell, the TU58 drive hardware should be perfectly > capable of formatting a tape, unlike e.g. disk drives that use > embedded servo. After a bit more study, I'm not completely certain that the TU58 hardware can write the "mark" patterns used at BOT, EOT, and in inter-record gap, without some minor hardware modification. Even more study required. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 24 23:21:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:21:56 -0700 Subject: manx 2.0.3 is online Message-ID: Hi All, Over the past year I've been working on manx now and then. Mostly I wanted to add a convenient way for me to incorporate scanned content I've contributed to bitsavers into manx. That system has been in testing for a little while now and I believe I've gotten things working to the point where they are usable by myself and a few select users to add new content to manx. For end-users you'll notice a few little bugs fixed and some new features. There is now an RSS feed of documents added to manx so that you can track new additions to manx. is an RSS feed of the 200 most recently added documents. If you see any problems with manx, please file a bug report at . -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Nov 25 02:34:47 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 09:34:47 +0100 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:00:11 -0600 Chris Elmquist wrote: > maybe it is time to revisit the solid-state emulation. > Perhaps a job for a BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi these days... Thats like killing a fly with a sledge hamer. A smalish Atmel ATmega and a SD card could do that job perfectly. See also: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/TU58_Emulator.htm http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 03:38:57 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:38:57 +0100 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) Message-ID: Hello. Do you still have an image of the ROM data? I would study it a little, as producing a formatter (also using TU58 mechanics but different electronic) would be very interesting... Andrea > I've disassembled the firmware its not there. It's not that hard to do > the reason I say modded is the 8085 > has only has 256bytes of ram and 2k of rom on the board. So bypassing > the 8085 or extending the memory > and firmware by modding the board for more rom space and maybe ram space > could make the needed > formatter. In the end you need the TU58 board for the drive interface > and motor control. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 25 05:31:01 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:31:01 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 and PDP11? Message-ID: <073101cdcb00$5ab21070$10163150$@ntlworld.com> A curious item has come up on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251189751428&ssPageName =ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 Was there some kind of PDP11 addon to a 2000? Or is that just a PDP11 label stuck to a VAXstation 2000? Regards Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 25 05:46:19 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:46:19 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 and PDP11? In-Reply-To: <073101cdcb00$5ab21070$10163150$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <463D6E419A874310B63D84A2536EAD11@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > Was there some kind of PDP11 addon to a 2000? Not that I've ever heard of. > Or is that just a PDP11 label stuck to a VAXstation 2000? That's where I'd put my money. That box looks like a straight-forward unaltered VS410. From what I recall of the insides, there's no room to fit a PDP-11 of any sort. It's possible that someone gutted a VS410 and put in some sort of PDP-11 instead, but that seems an odd thing to have done. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 08:15:17 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 09:15:17 -0500 Subject: VAXstation 2000 and PDP11? In-Reply-To: <073101cdcb00$5ab21070$10163150$@ntlworld.com> References: <073101cdcb00$5ab21070$10163150$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: It;s rather obvious if you look at the enlarged picture of the label. someone definitely just stuck the PDP11 label on the VS410 look at how the label is cut on the right side. someone doesn't know what they have, and I guess found an old pdp 11 label,cut off the model # portion of the label and probably glued it to the box. Dan. > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VAXstation 2000 and PDP11? > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:31:01 +0000 > > A curious item has come up on ebay: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251189751428&ssPageName > =ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 > > Was there some kind of PDP11 addon to a 2000? Or is that just a PDP11 label > stuck to a VAXstation 2000? > > Regards > > Rob From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 10:46:08 2012 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (Maurice Smulders) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 09:46:08 -0700 Subject: Kim 1 on denver craigslist Message-ID: There is a Kim 1 for sale in denver http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/3289285103.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Nov 25 12:18:27 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:18:27 -0500 Subject: Totally shameless plug - Atari Book now available for immediate purchase... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B260F3.5040605@atarimuseum.com> Well, after 7 years of research and over a year of writing and editing the book - Atari Inc. Business is Fun is now available for immediate purchase. https://www.createspace.com/3928085 800 Pages in total with nearly 300 pages of just memo's, court documents as well as rare and never before seen photo's and sketches. Told by the employees who worked there and cross checked by others as well as with supporting document evidence, this is a true recounting of Atari from its inception in the halls of AMPEX in 1969 by an engineer and a visionary that turn their efforts in a $2 billion juggernaut that then implodes into a $538 million death spiral by June 1984. Lots of detailed side stories such as "Rick Rats Big Cheese Restaurants" which would become the famous Chuck E Cheese franchise. How Atari had its own "Xerox PARC" in the Sierra Foothills and one of their first projects was a wireless version of arcade PONG to a much more detailed recounting of Steve Jobs time while at Atari, with far better details than what is told in Walter Isaacson's book, plus the true and accurate recounting of the creation of Breakout with input from Steve Wozniak who contributor to the chapter. Also the full story of the dealings and double-dealings between Atari and Amiga from November 1983 through June 1984 before Jack Tramiel even steps into the picture, including never before seen photo's, documents and court records. If you're looking for a gift for yourself or someone you know, you can order now for immediate shipment, or if your not in a rush and just want something to kick back and enjoy during the winter, order for January 2013 delivery and receive a $5.00 discount when you purchase: http://tinyurl.com/bs7kor8 Coming this time next year will be book #2 - Atari Corp. Business is War which will detail Atari from June 1984 through 1998... Curt From bob at jfcl.com Sun Nov 25 12:48:54 2012 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:48:54 -0800 Subject: VAXstation 2000 and PDP11? In-Reply-To: <463D6E419A874310B63D84A2536EAD11@ANTONIOPC> References: <073101cdcb00$5ab21070$10163150$@ntlworld.com> <463D6E419A874310B63D84A2536EAD11@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <001c01cdcb3d$850ce1f0$8f26a5d0$@com> >That box looks like a straight-forward unaltered VS410. It's been hacked up at least a little - for example, there's a toggle switch mounted above the external RD5x connector that doesn't belong there. And there's another D connector labeled "Trimarchi bus" that doesn't belong. The little 1" high extension on the bottom is standard DEC issue, but originally it just held the extra connector for the expansion RD5x box. It was mostly empty space. It's certainly physically possible that somebody could have stuck a single board -11 (e.g. a KXT11 or something) in there. It'd fit; there's plenty of power available, and you could wire its console to one of the uVAX2000 serial ports. Whether that's actually what's been done in this case, or better yet, exactly why somebody would create such an abomination, is unknown. Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 25 14:48:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:48:23 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B28417.9010509@brouhaha.com> shadoooo wrote: > Do you still have an image of the ROM data? It can be found with Google. Search for the part number of the ROM, 23-089E2. > I would study it a little, as producing a formatter (also using TU58 > mechanics but different electronic) would be very interesting... I think it would be easier to use the same electronics. The only issue is that I think a small modification might be necessary to produce the "mark" waveforms used at BOT, EOT, and in IRGs. If that does prove to be necessary, it should be a very minor addition, and shouldn't affect normal operation of the drive. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 15:10:00 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:10:00 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50B28928.2030102@gmail.com> On 11/24/2012 01:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > But since it seems even raw tapes are approaching unobtainium in any > quantity Modify tapes to contain an embedded USB stick, modify drive* to accept them, retain user experience of inserting/removing cartridge... ;-) * including delays, occasional errors etc., of course. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 25 15:20:05 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:20:05 -0000 Subject: Upgrading Memory on a VAXstation 3100 Model 38 Message-ID: <078e01cdcb52$a55c7870$f0156950$@ntlworld.com> I recently acquired a bunch of MS42 memory options boards (several 4MB, one 8MB and one 12MB). The 12MB one could be used to take my machine from 20MB to the full complement of 32MB. The trouble is that the mounting posts used when you only have one memory option board foul the second memory option board, the manual tells me to break the old posts off, but I don't want to do any physical damage to the machine (would prefer to stick to 20MB if I have to). Is it possible to get the mounting posts out without breaking them? Or, does anyone have any spare ones? Ideally I also need the E clips to keep the two memory options boards properly spaced, I suspect I can survive without them, but if anyone has any of these going spare I'd be interested in some. Regards Rob From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Nov 25 07:02:44 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:02:44 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-300 and a CQD-423 Qbus SCSI adapter questions - reply References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B145BC.1090004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >From powerup: KA670-A V3.4, VMB 2.12 1) Dansk 2) Deutsch (Deutschland/?sterreich) 3) Deutsch (Schweiz) 4) English (United Kingdom) 5) English (United States/Canada) 6) Espa?ol 7) Fran?ais (Canada) 8) Fran?ais (France/Belgique) 9) Fran?ais (Suisse) 10) Italiano 11) Nederlands 12) Norsk 13) Portugu?s 14) Suomi 15) Svenska (1..15): 5 Performing normal system tests. 66..65..64..63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55..54..53..52..51.. 50..49..48..47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39..38..37..36..35.. 34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19.. 18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. >>>show device DSSI Bus 0 Node 5 (DISK45) -DIA5 (RF72) DSSI Bus 0 Node 7 (*) DSSI Bus 1 Node 7 (*) UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500) -MUA0 (TK70) UQSSP Tape Controller 1 (760444) Ethernet Adapter -EZA0 (08-00-2B-0B-B3-6E) >>>show qbus Scan of Qbus I/O Space -200000DC (760334) = 0000 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -200000DE (760336) = 0B00 -20000124 (760444) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20000126 (760446) = 0B40 -20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20001942 (774502) = 0BC0 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR Scan of Qbus Memory Space >>> Maybe a KA670 firmware limitation, I have not tried this in a 705a. The card is configured with factory default settings and the only other Qbus card is a TK70 controller. Dan Snyder Butler, PA From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Nov 25 09:07:33 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:07:33 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-300 and a CQD-423 Qbus SCSI adapter questions - solved Message-ID: Seems as though the CQD-423 likes another CSR address from the one I chose. Set it to 772150 solved the problem. This address was at one time for a KFQSA DSSI module. >>> KA670-A V3.4, VMB 2.12 Performing normal system tests. 66..65..64..63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55..54..53..52..51.. 50..49..48..47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39..38..37..36..35.. 34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19.. 18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. >>>show device DSSI Bus 0 Node 5 (DISK45) -DIA5 (RF72) DSSI Bus 0 Node 7 (*) DSSI Bus 1 Node 7 (*) UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150) -DUA2 (RA90) -DUA3 (RA90) UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500) Ethernet Adapter -EZA0 (08-00-2B-0B-B3-6E) >>>show qbus Scan of Qbus I/O Space -20000124 (760444) = 0000 -20000126 (760446) = 0B40 -20001468 (772150) = 0000 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -2000146A (772152) = 0B00 -20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20001942 (774502) = 0BC0 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR Scan of Qbus Memory Space >>> To those that responded, thanks, to those who watched and have Qbus gear, another entry for the notebook of Qbus info. Dan Snyder Butler, PA From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 25 17:05:16 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 23:05:16 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-300 and a CQD-423 Qbus SCSI adapter questions - solved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5C7C55BB2E6349C589593022F36D241E@ANTONIOPC> Daniel Snyder [ddsnyder at zoominternet.net] wrote: > Seems as though the CQD-423 likes another CSR address from > the one I chose. Set it to 772150 solved the problem. This address > was at one time for a KFQSA > DSSI module. I'm glad that you've solved your issue. In case it helps anyone else, there are rules for configuring devices on Q-bus and if you follow them exactly usually everything will work nicely. In this case your CPU is new enough (;-)) that you can use the CONFIGURE command at the console (it might be CONFIG, it's been a while!). You enter each device you have (in your case an MSCP disk and a TQK70) and the command should tell you the CSR and vector settings for each device. If your machine had been sufficiently old (a KA630 or an early issue KA650 iirc), then the CONFIGURE command would not exist at the console level an you would have to boot OpenVMS and do the same thing using the SYSGEN program. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 25 17:07:47 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:07:47 -0500 Subject: VAXstation 2000 and PDP11? In-Reply-To: <001c01cdcb3d$850ce1f0$8f26a5d0$@com> References: <073101cdcb00$5ab21070$10163150$@ntlworld.com> <463D6E419A874310B63D84A2536EAD11@ANTONIOPC> <001c01cdcb3d$850ce1f0$8f26a5d0$@com> Message-ID: <50B2A4C3.8030202@verizon.net> On 11/25/2012 01:48 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: > Trimarchi bus Found this on the net. Appears to be a known mod. by EISNER::RICE "Gary Rice" at 9-DEC-1989 09:31 > -< Please explain "bells and whistles" >- The back of the Trimarchi box has the following connectors: 1) TK50 (Pseudo SCSI connector) 2) RD5x (50 pin "D" connector) 3) Trimarchi Bus (50 pin "D" connctor) 4) Trimarchi expansion A (60 pin "wierd" connector) 5) Trimarchi expansion B (20 pin "wierd" connector) 6) A toggle switch Unfortunately, I don't know much about 3) thru 6). Trimarchi (depending on who you talk to) will give you zero to some information about their own connectors. Gary From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 25 17:11:38 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:11:38 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B28417.9010509@brouhaha.com> References: <50B28417.9010509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50B2A5AA.4040007@brouhaha.com> I wrote about formatting TU58 tapes: > I think it would be easier to use the same [stadard TU58) electronics. > The only issue is that I think a small modification might be necessary > to produce the "mark" waveforms used at BOT, EOT, and in IRGs. If > that does prove to be necessary, it should be a very minor addition, > and shouldn't affect normal operation of the drive. After further study, I'm fairly certain that no hardware modification would be required. Does anyone have a new (unused) blank TU58 cartridge that they'd be willing to make available for research? The tech manual doesn't give quite enough detail of the tape format, and reverse-engineering the firmware won't reveal certain aspects such as the lenghts of the gaps. A pristine factory-formatted tape would be the most reliable source of that information. Once the tape has been written in the field, the resulting gap lenghts may vary. Eric From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 25 17:23:07 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:23:07 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50B2A85B.1050404@verizon.net> On 11/24/2012 02:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Saturday (11/24/2012 at 02:06AM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: >> I wrote: >>> It is remotely possible that there's an undocumented "format" >>> command in the protocol. However, I've heard multiple people >>> claim that special firmware was required. >> I spent some time reverse-engineering the firmware. There is only >> one undocumented opcode, decimal 10, and I haven't yet figured out >> what it does, but it definitely doesn't format a tape. >> >> I think I understand the code that writes a block, but of course >> there's no code to write an address field. Writing formatter >> firmware shouldn't be too hard, but it would be best to have a known >> good tape to examine to find out the details of the gap lengths. > I saved an image of the ROM while I had this unit apart but I see you > guys are already way ahead. > > If the raw tapes more readily available, I think it would make sense to > pursue the ability to format them. But since it seems even raw tapes > are approaching unobtainium in any quantity, maybe it is time to revisit > the solid-state emulation. Perhaps a job for a BeagleBone or Raspberry > Pi these days... > > Chris This is clearly using a tactical nuke to clear an ant farm. The original TU-58 uses a very bare 8085 with only 256 bytes or ram and 2K of Rom running at a clock speed that is 5/6ths the nominal speed of that CPU. This should give a clear indication that very little processing power is needed. As to what a TU58 is, it is only two drives of 256K bytes each, with serial interface. The communications is serial to 38Kbaud and the protocol is very specific but fairly simple. For people with PDP11s this thing without tapes (solid state memory flavor) is adequate to boot an 11 and even do useful thing s and without the slow down (seek and rewind) of mechanical tapes it's fast enough to be very useful. For VAX11/750 and 730 users thsi is the microcode boot device and also what is used to run diags. So it's important to have a tape or its analog. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 25 17:53:51 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:53:51 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B2A5AA.4040007@brouhaha.com> References: <50B28417.9010509@brouhaha.com> <50B2A5AA.4040007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50B2AF8F.4080103@verizon.net> On 11/25/2012 06:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote about formatting TU58 tapes: >> I think it would be easier to use the same [stadard TU58) >> electronics. The only issue is that I think a small modification >> might be necessary to produce the "mark" waveforms used at BOT, EOT, >> and in IRGs. If that does prove to be necessary, it should be a very >> minor addition, and shouldn't affect normal operation of the drive. > > After further study, I'm fairly certain that no hardware modification > would be required. > > Does anyone have a new (unused) blank TU58 cartridge that they'd be > willing to make available for research? The tech manual doesn't give > quite enough detail of the tape format, and reverse-engineering the > firmware won't reveal certain aspects such as the lenghts of the > gaps. A pristine factory-formatted tape would be the most reliable > source of that information. Once the tape has been written in the > field, the resulting gap lenghts may vary. > > Eric > > > You really do need optical EOT and BOT sensors in the loop and the standard TU58 does not use them. It's not only gaps, also address marks as TU58 is block addressable at the 128 byte interval. First step is a full reverse engineer of the firmware. I stopped at the level needed to understand the IO to the host rather than what I did to play with the tape as I knew that would be very bit level involved. Here is the preamble and first bits as I disassembled it back about '91ish, I sopped due to lack of need and preserved the results. NOTE: one must understand how the 8155 works to understand the ports and bits. Also same for the 8085 as the designers were clever in using IO (SID and SOD pins) and interrupt flag pins as IO. An example RST7.5 pin will latch and interrupt pulse and must be reset with the SIM instruction and the corect bit mask. The 6.5 and 5.5 pins must go high and remain high till recognized (as an interrupt) or read via the RIM instruction. the 8085 has one register that is not in the 8080 and that is read and written to by using the RIM and SIM instructions and what the bits do are more than what might be face value. ; TU58 ROM CODE ; ; must fit in 2716 (2k bytes) ; DPORT EQU 08H ;I/O TO HOST CSR EQU 20H ;8155 CSR PORTA EQU 21H ;PORT A PAWRT EQU 01H ; PA-0 WRT-PERMIT-L PAVEL EQU 02H ; PA-1 VELTP-H PABT EQU 04H ; PA-2 BCART-L PAAT EQU 08H ; PA-3 ACART-L PARUN EQU 10H ; PA-4 RUNTP-L PAZ0 EQU 20H ; PA-5 ZERO (GROUNDED) PABSW EQU 40H ; PA-6 BOOT-SW-L PAMRK EQU 80H ; PA-7 MARK-H ; PORTB EQU 22H ;PORT B PBRUN EQU 01H ; PB-0 RUN-L PBWEN EQU 02H ; PB-1 WRTEN-H PBREW EQU 04H ; PB-2 REVERSE-H PBDSEL EQU 08H ; PB-3 SEL-DRV-B-L PBTSEL EQU 10H ; PB-4 SEL-TR0-L PBGAIN EQU 20H ; PB-5 GAIN-REDUCE-L PBERA EQU 40H ; PB-6 ERASE-EN-L PB3FST EQU 80H ; PB-7 30IPS-H ; PORTC EQU 23H ; PORT C PCSTI EQU 08H ; PC-3 SELF TEST INDICATOR ; TIML EQU 24H TIMH EQU 25H ; ; SID LINE IS RD-DATA-H ; SOD LINE IS WR-DATA-H ;LOC 3CH RST7.5 RD-STROBE-H ;LOC 34H RST6.5 OBF-H ;LOC 2CH RST5.5 IBF-H ;LOC 24H TRAP ; ; RSP packet identifiers ; PDATA EQU 01H ; DATA PACKET CTLCMD EQU 02H ; CONTROL OR COMMAND PINIT EQU 04H ; INIT BSTRP EQU 08H ; BOOTSTRAP CONTF EQU 10H ; CONTINUE XON EQU 11H ; XON FLOW CONTROL XOFF EQU 13H ; XOFF FLOW CONTROL ; ORG 0000H ; RESET: LXI SP,STKTOP IN PORTA ANI PABSW ; check for boot sw-L JZ J0E5 CALL S013 CALL 077D JMP 026C S013: XRA A STA RAM00 S017: LXI H,0153 SHLD RAM01 MVI A,4D SIM EI JMP J0045 TRAP: DI ;break detect (trap 24h) LXI SP,STKTOP ;reset stack IN DPORT ;clear io port MVI A,FD INT55: OUT PORTB ;IBF (int5.5 2Ch) MVI L,05 JMP J005D NOP INT65: PUSH PSW ;OBF (INT6.5 34h) PUSH H IN DPORT LHLD RAM01 PCHL INT75: MVI A,10 ;RDstrobe (int7.5 3Ch)) SIM RIM RLC MOV A,B RAR MOV B,A RET J0045 MVI A,FE OUT CSR MVI A,FD OUT PORTB IN PORTC ORI 01 OUT PORTC MVI A,0C STA 20AD XRA A STA 20A2 RET J005D CALL S0D2 RIM ANI 20 JZ J05D DCR L JZ 026C IN DPORT CPI 04 ;check for init JNZ 005D CALL 0013 STA 20B6 LXI SP,STKTOP CALL 027E LXI H,0000 SHLD 20B4 SHLD 2003 MVI A,4D SIM EI J08A CALL 030A CALL 00D2 LDA 20A2 ANI 80 JZ 008A LDA 2007 CPI 02 ; control/cmd JNZ 026C LDA 2009 CPI 0B ; MVI A,D0 JNC 0766 LDA 2009 LXI H,00BA ; table address? RLC My 2 cents is look at the code for the TU58 emulator and build hardware around that using solid state memories. FYI: making the memories large is pointless as most of the VAX and PDP-11 drivers ASSUME the devices are 256K bytes per drive (512 blocks) and will not use larger unless you can find the source and rebuild them. Allison From cube1 at charter.net Sun Nov 25 19:22:04 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:22:04 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 SAV File Format In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1B91@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <35eec25f$a920e54$45e62920$@com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A1B91@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50B2C43C.6000205@charter.net> Back in 1992 I wrote some routines that could read PDP-10 archive tapes that a friend had that I imaged and extract source code "safely" - safely enough that I was able to get said source programs running. In other words, it got the bits and byte order right. Called "get36.c" and "dump36.c", they were written in Borland C, but are pretty generic. If folks are interested, I can post them on my web site or even post them here - they are not all that long. The tapes I got had been written on a PDP-10. If I remember correctly, I read them in on a VAX (the other possibility is that I imaged them under Linux -- I just don't recall) and then transferred the resulting suff. Jay Jaeger On 11/21/2012 1:09 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: B. Degnan > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:26 PM > > [quoting Rob Doyle] > >>> I've downloaded several ks10 instruction set diagnostics in .SAV file >>> format from trailing-edge.com. > >>> In a 36-bit world, I think I understand the .SAV file format. I >>> can't figure out the format that I've retrieved. > >>> I've even tried loading the .SAV files that I've retrieved into SIMH >>> but SIMH complains about a "Format Error". > >>> Any clues? Did I mung the files copying them from the website? > >> The .SV file format from OS/8 (PDP 8's OS) is kind of like .SAV... >> Maybe someone renamed the file extension for some reason? > > Bill, > > Rob was downloading the individual binary files which Tim Shoppa had > scraped off of PDP-10 tapes on the http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ > web site. As Tim explained in his reply to Rob, he did not create these > files in a way that would allow them to be transferred safely (via an > 8-bit interface) between PDP-10 systems, which is why they end up with > an incorrect format when anyone attempts to use them directly in a PDP-10 > simulator. > > As Tim pointed out, the *right* way to use any of the binaries (the text > files are just fine via HTTP) is to download the unadulterated tape > image associated with each list of files, and use PDP-10 native tools > (BACKUP on Tops-10, DUMPER on TOPS-20) to restore the files to a disk > image and *then* use them. > > (As an old contributor to as well as long time user of Tim's site, I > feel justified in pointing this out.) > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Nov 25 19:47:45 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:47:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bogus VT420 on Ebay Message-ID: I ran across this on Ebay: 160925314748 The pictures are from my web site, and the description AND serial number listed are lifted right off my page: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/VT420.html Even more amazing, someone apparently already bought one and gave positive feedback! Needless to say, my terminal is not for sale. I've filed a fraudulent listing complaint. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 19:59:10 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:59:10 -0800 Subject: Bogus VT420 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B2CCEE.5020209@gmail.com> On 11/25/2012 5:47 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I ran across this on Ebay: > > 160925314748 > > The pictures are from my web site, and the description AND serial > number listed are lifted right off my page: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/VT420.html > > Even more amazing, someone apparently already bought one and gave > positive feedback! Needless to say, my terminal is not for sale. > > I've filed a fraudulent listing complaint. Probably not done with malice but, laziness. Happens all the time. I have had a couple pictures I took show up in ebay auctions before. I suspect they just google images and grab ones for what they are selling. For something as common as a vt420 it's probably not a huge deal. People use stock photos all the time on ebay and it doesn't make the auction fraudulent. However, taking someone else's photographs for commercial use is actually illegal. You could make him take them down or demand you be given credit. I never cared enough to bother though. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 20:17:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:17:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bogus VT420 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <50B2CCEE.5020209@gmail.com> References: <50B2CCEE.5020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121125181604.O25266@shell.lmi.net> > On 11/25/2012 5:47 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I ran across this on Ebay: > > 160925314748 > > The pictures are from my web site, and the description AND serial > > number listed are lifted right off my page: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/VT420.html > > Even more amazing, someone apparently already bought one and gave > > positive feedback! Needless to say, my terminal is not for sale. > > I've filed a fraudulent listing complaint. On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, mc68010 wrote: > Probably not done with malice but, laziness. Happens all the time. I > have had a couple pictures I took show up in ebay auctions before. I > suspect they just google images and grab ones for what they are selling. > For something as common as a vt420 it's probably not a huge deal. People > use stock photos all the time on ebay and it doesn't make the auction > fraudulent. However, taking someone else's photographs for commercial > use is actually illegal. You could make him take them down or demand you > be given credit. I never cared enough to bother though. Lifting pictures, and using other people's pictures as if they were "stock photos" could well be simple laziness. But SERIAL NUMBER? From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 20:32:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:32:16 -0800 Subject: Bogus VT420 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20121125181604.O25266@shell.lmi.net> References: <50B2CCEE.5020209@gmail.com> <20121125181604.O25266@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50B2D4B0.2000102@gmail.com> On 11/25/2012 6:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> led a fraudulent listing complaint. > On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> Probably not done with malice but, laziness. Happens all the time. I >> have had a couple pictures I took show up in ebay auctions before. I >> suspect they just google images and grab ones for what they are selling. >> For something as common as a vt420 it's probably not a huge deal. People >> use stock photos all the time on ebay and it doesn't make the auction >> fraudulent. However, taking someone else's photographs for commercial >> use is actually illegal. You could make him take them down or demand you >> be given credit. I never cared enough to bother though. > Lifting pictures, and using other people's pictures as if they were "stock > photos" could well be simple laziness. > But SERIAL NUMBER? > > Looks like he just put it in with the model by mistake. The question I have is that I thought vt420's only came with LK401 keyboards? Your picture is of a vt420 with a vt220 keyboard right ? If you bought this would you get the lk201 or the lk401 ? From chrise at pobox.com Sun Nov 25 20:38:47 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:38:47 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (11/25/2012 at 09:34AM +0100), Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:00:11 -0600 > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > maybe it is time to revisit the solid-state emulation. > > Perhaps a job for a BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi these days... > Thats like killing a fly with a sledge hamer. Exactly... because then I can transfer images in and out via SD card, ethernet, wifi... and I can put it together in an afternoon with parts on hand. > A smalish Atmel ATmega and a SD card could do that job perfectly. > See also: > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/TU58_Emulator.htm Yup. No longer available. > http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm Yup. Lots of solutions existing as code to run on a PC, Unix, Linux. Should be a no brainer to port to a small ARM platform such as I mentioned. I still like (kind of a love-hate sort of thing) the real TU58 though. It's love-hate because even my "new" capstan rollers have turned to goo after just a few cycles of the tape past them. So, I am exploring the Tygon tubing and some o-ring options next. Additionally, I found that the DC100A cartridges I have that were labeled with hand written "4500" stickers are all unreadable in my drive (before the capstans failed). They all returned "block not found" error no matter what block I try to seek. I have concluded these were reformatted into some other non-TU58 format and so they became donors for belts to fix the other tapes that were labeled "DEC". And so now, I have recovered five tapes that appeared to work error free in my drive until the capstans melted. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 25 20:55:57 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:55:57 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B2A85B.1050404@verizon.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <50B2A85B.1050404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50B2DA3D.9090706@brouhaha.com> allison wrote about the TU58: > For VAX11/750 and 730 users thsi is the microcode boot device and also > what is used to run diags. So it's important to have a tape or its > analog. And the HSC50, which is why I'm interested. Though I haven't been able to obtain an actual HSC50. I've got two HSC70s, but they aren't useful to me, so I'd be happy to trade one for an HSC50. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 25 21:02:54 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:02:54 -0700 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B2AF8F.4080103@verizon.net> References: <50B28417.9010509@brouhaha.com> <50B2A5AA.4040007@brouhaha.com> <50B2AF8F.4080103@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50B2DBDE.9050901@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > You really do need optical EOT and BOT sensors in the loop and the > standard TU58 does not use them. I think it should be perfectly possible to format a tape without those sensors. Starting from the physical BOT, just make sure you write a sufficient amount of BOT marks before writing the actual records, and after the last record, write EOT marks until the physical EOT. The motor current sense should be able to detect the physical EOT. If not, I'm OK with manually sending a command to the drive when it hits EOT. I don't think the motor has enough torque to damage the cartridge, although I'll test that with a scratch cartridge first. > It's not only gaps, also address marks I believe I stated that myself, if not in the message that you replied to, then in others in this thread. However, the address marks are very similar to the on-tape BOT and EOT marks. > First step is a full reverse engineer of the firmware. I've done a substantial portion of that already. > My 2 cents is look at the code for the TU58 emulator and build > hardware around that using solid state > memories. It's been done. I'm more interested in being able to format NOS tapes for use in an HSC50, assuming that I eventually can get my hands on an HSC50. Eric From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Nov 25 21:04:58 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 03:04:58 +0000 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi there! Anyone know the history of the Compaq MSA1000 RAID controller? It came out right around the time of the DEC acquisition by Compaq, and survived through the HP merger... Does anyone know, was it actually designed by DEC engineers, or Compaq? Thanks in advance! -Ben From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Nov 25 21:49:06 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:49:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B28928.2030102@gmail.com> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <50B28928.2030102@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/24/2012 01:00 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> But since it seems even raw tapes are approaching unobtainium in any >> quantity > > Modify tapes to contain an embedded USB stick, modify drive* to accept them, > retain user experience of inserting/removing cartridge... ;-) > > * including delays, occasional errors etc., of course. > I sure do miss the 15 minute boot times of my 11/750, which only failed 20% of the time due to a tape error near the end of the console tape. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 02:21:45 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:21:45 +0000 Subject: Bogus VT420 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B32699.6080403@gmail.com> On 26/11/2012 01:47, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I ran across this on Ebay: > > 160925314748 > > The pictures are from my web site, and the description AND serial > number listed are lifted right off my page: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/VT420.html > > Even more amazing, someone apparently already bought one and gave > positive feedback! Needless to say, my terminal is not for sale. > > I've filed a fraudulent listing complaint. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > I wonder if that is a hacked account. Nothing fro 12 months then 2 x VT100 -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 02:35:52 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 02:35:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone know the history of the Compaq MSA1000 RAID controller? It came > out right around the time of the DEC acquisition by Compaq, and survived > through the HP merger... > Does anyone know, was it actually designed by DEC engineers, or Compaq? If I were to guess, I'd say a lot of it came from the Digital side of things, and quite possibly with some OEM'd parts from Mylex. Mylex was one of Digital's key suppliers for SCSI and RAID HBAs and was working on their own fibrechannel HBAs and such around the time the MSA1000 was being designed. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 02:46:55 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:46:55 +0000 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com> On 26/11/2012 08:35, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > >> Anyone know the history of the Compaq MSA1000 RAID controller? It >> came out right around the time of the DEC acquisition by Compaq, and >> survived through the HP merger... >> Does anyone know, was it actually designed by DEC engineers, or Compaq? > > If I were to guess, I'd say a lot of it came from the Digital side of > things, and quite possibly with some OEM'd parts from Mylex. Mylex was > one of Digital's key suppliers for SCSI and RAID HBAs and was working > on their own fibrechannel HBAs and such around the time the MSA1000 > was being designed. I worked there at the time, and I can't remember. I think it came from the Compaq side. I'll ask one of the guys in HP Storage. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 05:41:36 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:41:36 +0000 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 November 2012 08:46, Dave Wade wrote: > On 26/11/2012 08:35, Tothwolf wrote: >> >> On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> >>> Anyone know the history of the Compaq MSA1000 RAID controller? It came >>> out right around the time of the DEC acquisition by Compaq, and survived >>> through the HP merger... >>> Does anyone know, was it actually designed by DEC engineers, or Compaq? >> It's repackaged SmartArray version 5 hardware from the Proliant range, essentially a 5304 array controller. All Compaq designed hardware right down to the midplane, and even shares the cache battery module from the 5300/6300 controllers. The same controllers are used in the MSA500 and MSA1500 series, plug and play. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 06:11:28 2012 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 04:11:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fw: 68360 help Message-ID: <1353931888.11467.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Received a request for help on a MC68360 prototype board. This is an intermediate step to the planned MC68040 SBC. If anyone has expertise with the MC68360 and can help please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM or on the N8VEM mailing list. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From: To: n8vem at googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: [N8VEM: 15020] 68360 help Hi I have been working of the MC68360 prototype that would be the precursor to the 68040 build. ?I am stymied and would like any ideas on how to proceed. ?Attached are the schematics. ?What I observe on power up is that RESTH* is always low - it is pulled up with a 10K resistor. ? I have tried all kinds of things to figure out why this is so but can not seem to crack this. ?I feel if I can get past this always low condition I might be able to make progress would be greatly appreciated. ?I also have a couple of bare boards if anyone is interested in taking a stab at this. Thanks in advance? Dave-- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Nov 26 06:27:04 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:27:04 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On 23 November 2012 09:59, Liam Proven wrote: > > Same here too. > > Of all the exotic kit I goggled at and lusted after at computer shows > in the mid-1980s when I was a student in London, I would have a tough > time deciding between an Apple IIgs and an Amiga 1000. > > The Atari ST didn't even come close at the time - not until the Abaq. > > But today, I have an Amiga 1200 with a 68030, 8MB of RAM and a hard > disk. I never play with it, of course. > > So now, I long for an Apple IIgs... > I have an Atari 520 ST that I found in a bin, in the rain. It works fine (or it did the last time I had it powered up.) I used it to rescue loads of old BBS posts that were saved on Atari ST disks that someone gave me. I'd love an Amiga. And a IIgs. Sigh. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From cctech at vax-11.org Mon Nov 26 07:56:26 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:56:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Sunday (11/25/2012 at 09:34AM +0100), Jochen Kunz wrote: >> On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:00:11 -0600 >> Chris Elmquist wrote: >> >>> maybe it is time to revisit the solid-state emulation. >>> Perhaps a job for a BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi these days... >> Thats like killing a fly with a sledge hamer. > Exactly... because then I can transfer images in and out via SD card, > ethernet, wifi... and I can put it together in an afternoon with parts > on hand. > >> A smalish Atmel ATmega and a SD card could do that job perfectly. >> See also: >> http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/TU58_Emulator.htm > Yup. No longer available. > >> http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm > Yup. Lots of solutions existing as code to run on a PC, Unix, > Linux. Should be a no brainer to port to a small ARM platform such as > I mentioned. > > I still like (kind of a love-hate sort of thing) the real TU58 though. > > It's love-hate because even my "new" capstan rollers have turned to goo > after just a few cycles of the tape past them. So, I am exploring the > Tygon tubing and some o-ring options next. > > Additionally, I found that the DC100A cartridges I have that were > labeled with hand written "4500" stickers are all unreadable in my drive > (before the capstans failed). They all returned "block not found" > error no matter what block I try to seek. I have concluded these were > reformatted into some other non-TU58 format and so they became donors > for belts to fix the other tapes that were labeled "DEC". And so now, > I have recovered five tapes that appeared to work error free in my drive > until the capstans melted. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > I've been able to recover tapes that were damaged by a gooey capstan by reading the tape until a bad block appeared, cleaning the head, and repeating. Each pass transfers a little bit of goo from the tape to the head, eventually removing enough to read the block. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 07:58:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:58:54 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: On 26 November 2012 12:27, John Many Jars wrote: > On 23 November 2012 09:59, Liam Proven wrote: > >> >> Same here too. >> >> Of all the exotic kit I goggled at and lusted after at computer shows >> in the mid-1980s when I was a student in London, I would have a tough >> time deciding between an Apple IIgs and an Amiga 1000. >> >> The Atari ST didn't even come close at the time - not until the Abaq. >> >> But today, I have an Amiga 1200 with a 68030, 8MB of RAM and a hard >> disk. I never play with it, of course. >> >> So now, I long for an Apple IIgs... >> > > I have an Atari 520 ST that I found in a bin, in the rain. It works fine > (or it did the last time I had it powered up.) I used it to rescue loads > of old BBS posts that were saved on Atari ST disks that someone gave me. > > I'd love an Amiga. And a IIgs. Sigh. Impressively tough machine! It had the power supply and stuff too? Nice find! My boxed Amiga 1200 cost me an old NT4 license and a Compaq server Ethernet card. I had the 8MB SIMM that's in it already. Sadly the expansion board will only take a single-sided SIMM or I'd put 16MB in it. The accelerator board (and PCMCIA SCSI interface, internal 2.5" HD mounting cradle and cable) I had to buy, unfortunately, but the whole thing was about ?30-?40 all in. What I need now is a flicker-fixer board and a copy of OS 3.9. I have contemplated putting a PowerPC accelerator in it and putting MorphOS or AmigaOS 4 on it - but I have MorphOS running on my Mac mini G4 and frankly, with the best will in the world, although it is fast, it is embarrassingly basic and clunky for a 21st century OS. As something from the early-to-mid 1990s, all right, but for nearly 20y later, I'm sorry, but no, it's a bit of a joke. I also have had AROS running on various bits of PC hardware. It is somewhat more impressive, inasmuch as it's 100% free and very fast by x86 standards -- and it was considerably easier to install and get working. As MorphOS is a commercial OS -- nah. Sorry. Not these days. The same goes for RISC OS Ltd's various versions of RISC OS 4 for old Acorn machines, which were ITRO ?80-?100. I'm sorry guys, but it's just not worth it today. RISC OS Open Ltd's free version - yeah, sure, that is interesting and fun. It's like having a fishtank with an /Anomalocaris/ swimming around in it today... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalocaris ... never going to take over again or have any real importance or impact, but a fascinating example of a different path of evolution that died out long ago. The only long-dead weird OS with a modern reincarnation which I think has any real importance or validity today, and which could yet do something, is BeOS and its FOSS version Haiku. It runs rings around Linux as a POSIX-compatible client-side GUI OS. Haiku aside, I suspect AROS, MorphOS, AmigaOS 4, RISC OS, Syllable and SkyOS are probably all on highways to nowhere, sadly. Haiku as well, in all likelihood. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon Nov 26 09:21:39 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:21:39 +0000 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <22E6E2F0-8A24-4627-A7D6-54AFDC3EC9A8@mail2.cu-portland.edu> That's kind of what I figured, but wasn't sure, given that they're on the supported options list for AlphaServer systems, as are the SA 5300 and 6400. At least in my experience, they've been rock solid. On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:42 AM, "Adrian Graham" wrote: > On 26 November 2012 08:46, Dave Wade wrote: >> On 26/11/2012 08:35, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone know the history of the Compaq MSA1000 RAID controller? It came >>>> out right around the time of the DEC acquisition by Compaq, and survived >>>> through the HP merger... >>>> Does anyone know, was it actually designed by DEC engineers, or Compaq? > > It's repackaged SmartArray version 5 hardware from the Proliant range, > essentially a 5304 array controller. All Compaq designed hardware > right down to the midplane, and even shares the cache battery module > from the 5300/6300 controllers. > > The same controllers are used in the MSA500 and MSA1500 series, plug and play. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 26 11:29:39 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:29:39 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121126172939.GG7247@n0jcf.net> On Monday (11/26/2012 at 06:56AM -0700), cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > > I've been able to recover tapes that were damaged by a gooey capstan > by reading the tape until a bad block appeared, cleaning the head, > and repeating. > > Each pass transfers a little bit of goo from the tape to the head, > eventually removing enough to read the block. Yes. Unfortunately, what I'm experiencing is the roller in the cartridge embeds itself into the gooey capstan and then stops turning. It'll start moving fine, seeking pretty far in and then begins turning slower and slower until it finally fails with a motor stall error. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 12:38:45 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:38:45 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121126172939.GG7247@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> <20121126172939.GG7247@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50B3B735.4070506@verizon.net> On 11/26/2012 12:29 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Monday (11/26/2012 at 06:56AM -0700), cctech at vax-11.org wrote: >> I've been able to recover tapes that were damaged by a gooey capstan >> by reading the tape until a bad block appeared, cleaning the head, >> and repeating. >> >> Each pass transfers a little bit of goo from the tape to the head, >> eventually removing enough to read the block. > Yes. Unfortunately, what I'm experiencing is the roller in the cartridge > embeds itself into the gooey capstan and then stops turning. It'll start > moving fine, seeking pretty far in and then begins turning slower and > slower until it finally fails with a motor stall error. > > Chris > The trick is if the roller on inspection is soft to the point of goo is to NOT INSERT a tape and foul it with the goo. These rollers all by now have failed to goo and the only choice is to remove the roller and remove the goo and replace with tygon tubing or other rubber product. I started seeing failed rollers more than 18 years ago so this is not a new problem. Allison From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Mon Nov 26 06:43:10 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 23:43:10 +1100 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D9F6700-F410-4AC9-B460-91D8F92ACCBD@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 26/11/2012, at 10:41 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > It's repackaged SmartArray version 5 hardware from the Proliant range, > essentially a 5304 array controller. All Compaq designed hardware > right down to the midplane, and even shares the cache battery module > from the 5300/6300 controllers. I can definitely confirm it's a pre-merger Compaq design - I had a very boozy dinner with a couple of the Compaq Storage team in Sydney in 2000 where we talked about it in some detail. At that stage I was working for Compaq supporting an OpenVMS customer who were planning to use them (and eventually did). A few years later (about 12) and I'm now working there but we have moved on from MSA-1000s! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 13:52:10 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:52:10 +0000 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: <7D9F6700-F410-4AC9-B460-91D8F92ACCBD@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com> <7D9F6700-F410-4AC9-B460-91D8F92ACCBD@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <50B3C86A.4060409@gmail.com> On 26/11/2012 12:43, Huw Davies wrote: > On 26/11/2012, at 10:41 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> It's repackaged SmartArray version 5 hardware from the Proliant range, >> essentially a 5304 array controller. All Compaq designed hardware >> right down to the midplane, and even shares the cache battery module >> from the 5300/6300 controllers. > I can definitely confirm it's a pre-merger Compaq design - I had a very boozy dinner with a couple of the Compaq Storage team in Sydney in 2000 where we talked about it in some detail. At that stage I was working for Compaq supporting an OpenVMS customer who were planning to use them (and eventually did). A few years later (about 12) and I'm now working there but we have moved on from MSA-1000s! That was kind of my recollection. Was the Digital SAN the EVA? Then there was the "old" HSG80/HSZ80 that was really Digital... > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From sales at elecplus.com Mon Nov 26 15:12:13 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:12:13 -0600 Subject: Apple III and Lisa Message-ID: <008001cdcc1a$b4940d30$1dbc2790$@com> For those who asked, the Apple III powers on, the screen comes up, give a msg abt mem test, and that is all it does. I do not have the software. The Lisa, I don't have a kbd that I know of, and the power on button gives no results. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5920 - Release Date: 11/26/12 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Nov 26 15:15:49 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:15:49 -0600 Subject: IBM 3278-2 terminal, for those that asked Message-ID: <008501cdcc1b$3579f220$a06dd660$@com> The unit powers on, lights one and 2 come on, and that is it. My IBM buddies tell me it is because I don't have the mainframe to test it on. No evidence of screen burn. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5920 - Release Date: 11/26/12 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Nov 26 15:55:48 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:55:48 -0600 Subject: IBM Coax terminals, professionally refurbished Message-ID: <009401cdcc20$cb5bc020$62134060$@com> A number of people have asked abt coax terminals. I have a buddy, Rich Rappaport at RJR Electronics, that does a fantastic job of professionally refurbishing these. They come with a 90-day warranty. IBM 3472 Green/Amber Terminal Monitor $125 IBM 3472 Logic & Swivel $35 IBM 3472 122-Keyboard $60 Same prices for 3481 or 3482. He will ship within the US. Shipping is additional. Rich Rappaport RJR Electronics 5300-B Westpark Drive SW Atlanta, GA 30336 rjrelectronics at aol.com 404-349-7600 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5920 - Release Date: 11/26/12 From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 19:01:55 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:01:55 -0600 Subject: Kim 1 on denver craigslist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nobody replied about it so maybe I'm just the odd man out but I don't recall seeing a blue one before. Is that some known model that had a blue circuit board? Sorta looked like a possible clone or something but it seems to have the product stamp on it.. should be a "rev" number there too but it's blurry. It's nice though (if legit) that the seller is open to trading equipment. It's not a horrible price vs ebay. On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Maurice Smulders < maurice.smulders at gmail.com> wrote: > There is a Kim 1 for sale in denver > > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/3289285103.html > From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 19:05:51 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:05:51 -0600 Subject: Kim 1 on denver craigslist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Replying to myself, I guess the rev. F is blue http://www.commodore.ca/products/kim1/kim1f_blue_lg.jpg . Not sure how common that was, but interesting to see. From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 26 19:11:58 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:11:58 -0500 Subject: Kim 1 on denver craigslist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> On 11/26/2012 8:01 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Nobody replied about it so maybe I'm just the odd man out but I don't > recall seeing a blue one before. Is that some known model that had a blue > circuit board? Sorta looked like a possible clone or something but it > seems to have the product stamp on it.. should be a "rev" number there too > but it's blurry. It's nice though (if legit) that the seller is open to > trading equipment. It's not a horrible price vs ebay. > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Maurice Smulders< > maurice.smulders at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> There is a Kim 1 for sale in denver >> >> http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/3289285103.html >> >> > I sent an email as well - no reply here either.. steve From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 19:33:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:33:16 -0800 Subject: Looking to borrow a ESDI Hard Drive controller for PCs In-Reply-To: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> Message-ID: <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> I have a big box of ESDI drives I just want to test and sort out the bad ones. No reason to keep hauling them around from place to place if they don't even work. I have no intention of using them on a PC so, I'd rather avoid buying a card I will use once. Looking for something 16bit ISA with built in format utilities. I'll happily pay shipping both ways. I only need it a couple of days and will get it right back home after. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 19:38:40 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:38:40 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> Message-ID: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid at $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If someone doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save it for $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 26 19:57:38 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:57:38 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/11/12 8:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single > bid at $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If > someone doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should > save it for $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 > That doesn't look boring at all! Unfortunately I'm nowhere near. :( --Toby From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 19:58:07 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:58:07 -0600 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: very cool On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 7:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid > at $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If > someone doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save > it for $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/**160930444034 > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 20:02:37 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:02:37 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid at > $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If someone > doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save it for > $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 They aren't as versatile as, say, an 11/23, but you can still run RT11SJ on them, and they will work with a wide variety of peripherals (RXV11 + RX01, RKV11D, RLV11+RL01...) Of course it can be easier to find the 11/03 than those peripherals in the first place... -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 20:05:56 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:05:56 -0600 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: so temping but my roomates would kill me From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 20:23:24 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:23:24 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B4241C.4050702@verizon.net> On 11/26/2012 09:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid at >> $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If someone >> doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save it for >> $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 > They aren't as versatile as, say, an 11/23, but you can still run > RT11SJ on them, and they will work with a wide variety of peripherals > (RXV11 + RX01, RKV11D, RLV11+RL01...) > > Of course it can be easier to find the 11/03 than those peripherals in > the first place... > > -ethan > Think of it this way even if the /03 is limited ( it might have been upgraded to 11/23) you still get a RXV controller and the RX01/02 drives. Yes you can plug a the dual width F11 card in that and maybe even the quad width 11/23. Biggest issue is not many slots in the box. Either way a 03 with disks is worth more than $20! If it wasn't a hard 10 hour drive one way from here I'd do it just to get the rack and the PDP11. The control peripherals may be interesting as well. Allison From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Nov 26 20:31:03 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:31:03 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > >>I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid at >>$99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If someone >>doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save it for >>$20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. >> >>http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 >> >> > >They aren't as versatile as, say, an 11/23, but you can still run >RT11SJ on them, and they will work with a wide variety of peripherals >(RXV11 + RX01, RKV11D, RLV11+RL01...) > >Of course it can be easier to find the 11/03 than those peripherals in >the first place... > Just to add a few more options, as long as RT11SJ runs, then I would expect the RT11FB would run as well. However, since the 11/03 does not support an MMU, RT11XM is definitely not possible. In addition, I seem to remember that the 11/03 is not compatible with a 22 bit backplane since the extra lines expect something else, possibly some sort of power. Even an 18 bit backplane may not be allowed, only a 16 bit backplane. Also, as long as the RX01 is possible, I would expect that the RX02 is supported as well. I don't know if an RQDXn is allowed, but I do not see why MSCP would be excluded. I think I still have an 11/03 around, but where at this point I don't know and I doubt that a working backplane is available. Jerome Fine From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 20:40:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:40:47 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50B4282F.40105@gmail.com> I just looked at the pictures again and it may look like there are no cards in the 11/03. The cable to the RX02 is disconnected and laying on the bottom and the 11/03 is just a black looking emptiness. Really hard to tell for sure though. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 20:41:51 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:41:51 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> On 11/26/2012 6:31 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> >>> I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a >>> single bid at >>> $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If >>> someone >>> doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save >>> it for >>> $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 >>> >> >> They aren't as versatile as, say, an 11/23, but you can still run >> RT11SJ on them, and they will work with a wide variety of peripherals >> (RXV11 + RX01, RKV11D, RLV11+RL01...) >> >> Of course it can be easier to find the 11/03 than those peripherals in >> the first place... >> > > Also, as long as the RX01 is possible, I would expect that the RX02 > is supported as well. I don't know if an RQDXn is allowed, but I > do not see why MSCP would be excluded. It comes with an RX02 so I would hope so. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 20:50:12 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:50:12 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B4282F.40105@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> <50B4282F.40105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I just looked at the pictures again and it may look like there are no cards > in the 11/03. The cable to the RX02 is disconnected and laying on the bottom > and the 11/03 is just a black looking emptiness. Really hard to tell for > sure though. I think in that enclosure, the beige front attaches with a couple of hex screws and the boards are accessed from the front. -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 20:58:35 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:58:35 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> <50B4282F.40105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B42C5B.2060900@gmail.com> On 11/26/2012 6:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I just looked at the pictures again and it may look like there are no cards >> in the 11/03. The cable to the RX02 is disconnected and laying on the bottom >> and the 11/03 is just a black looking emptiness. Really hard to tell for >> sure though. > I think in that enclosure, the beige front attaches with a couple of > hex screws and the boards are accessed from the front. > > -ethan Ahh google images shows me you are 100% right. How does the RX02 cable attach ? Are there just holes in the back for the drive cables or panels of some sort ? From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 21:42:48 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:42:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need advice: Intecolor 8001 w/ tapes Message-ID: <1353987768.41773.YahooMailClassic@web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Acquired an Intecolor 8001, but haven't yet turned it on. Is there anything *specific* about this system to watch out for? I don't have a service manual or schematics. I know that on the CompuColor II, a close relative, the CRT controller IC is sensitive to over voltage. Thanks- Steve. See pics here: http://oldcomputers.net/temp/isc-1.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/isc-2.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/isc-3.jpg Keyboard not shown. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 21:44:03 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:44:03 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B42C5B.2060900@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B41E12.7010702@telegraphics.com.au> <50B4282F.40105@gmail.com> <50B42C5B.2060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:58 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 11/26/2012 6:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I think in that enclosure, the beige front attaches with a couple of >> hex screws and the boards are accessed from the front. >> >> -ethan > > Ahh google images shows me you are 100% right. How does the RX02 cable > attach ? Are there just holes in the back for the drive cables or panels of > some sort ? Without going to find one to look, IIRC, there's a gap at the bottom of the backplane. You slip the cables through in some reasonable order then plug them in around the front. There should be a bar or two with wingnuts on the back of the chassis to prevent too much wiggle from stressing the cables at the front if something is yanked. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 26 21:46:17 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:46:17 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:02 PM -0500 11/26/12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >They aren't as versatile as, say, an 11/23, but you can still run >RT11SJ on them, and they will work with a wide variety of peripherals >(RXV11 + RX01, RKV11D, RLV11+RL01...) > >Of course it can be easier to find the 11/03 than those peripherals in >the first place... Yeah, the RKV11D would be a pain to find. The others, not so much. Personally I think the /03 is the least interesting thing in that rack, the only thing that makes the /03 at all interesting is a couple DEC analogue to digital (or is it the other way around, I forget) boards I have that apparently will only work in the /03. I wonder what the system was used for, especially given the location of Rochester, NY. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 21:59:13 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:59:13 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B41DE8.5090700@jwsss.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B41DE8.5090700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Isn't this Will Donzelli land? Maybe he would be interested / capable of > grabbing it. Nope, not interested (PDP-11/03 is at the bottom of the DECinterest scale for me), unless someone pays me to go fetch it. Rochester is a good few hours away from me. -- Will From paulyandy at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 15:30:55 2012 From: paulyandy at yahoo.com (paul anderson) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:30:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Opus ISA SparcCard Message-ID: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Bernd, Greetings! I have a mysterious ISA card and after researching, I found an old post from 2007 which contained a conversation you were having regarding an Opus ISA SparcCard.? I'm curious if this is what I currently have. Do you happen to know of any online information about getting this working?? I was going to recycle it but it seems a shame if it is a bit of history and of unique functionality. Any help is most appreciated and thank you! Paul Anderson From martinm at allwest.net Mon Nov 26 17:47:55 2012 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:47:55 -0700 Subject: Opus ISA SparcCard In-Reply-To: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101cdcc30$74cfbbc0$5e6f3340$@net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of paul anderson > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:31 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Opus ISA SparcCard > > Bernd, > > Greetings! I have a mysterious ISA card and after researching, I found > an old post from 2007 which contained a conversation you were having > regarding an Opus ISA SparcCard.? I'm curious if this is what I > currently have. > > Do you happen to know of any online information about getting this > working?? I was going to recycle it but it seems a shame if it is a bit > of history and of unique functionality. > > > Any help is most appreciated and thank you! > > > Paul Anderson Paul: I have a fair amount of information and some software for the Opus SPARCard (2 and 5). The information, in a zip file, is about 2.16MB. Send your email address, to martinm at allwest.net, and I'll send you the zip file. Martin Marshall From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 26 19:56:56 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:56:56 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B41DE8.5090700@jwsss.com> The thing I notice about it as well is that the bay looks like the NASA standard cabinets, at 7' or so, and is a similar color. It's in the wrong part of the country to be from any NASA facility I know of, but the color is right, as is the size. Also the posting you don't mention that it is inside what is probably a 500# (min) bay that must go freight. I'd take a 19 or 99 buck 11/03, but this will cuost either a long trip or a big freight bill. Isn't this Will Donzelli land? Maybe he would be interested / capable of grabbing it. Jim On 11/26/2012 5:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single > bid at $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. > If someone doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone > should save it for $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 > > From tingox at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 00:48:36 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 07:48:36 +0100 Subject: Opus ISA SparcCard In-Reply-To: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:30 PM, paul anderson wrote: > Bernd, > > Greetings! I have a mysterious ISA card and after researching, I found an old post from 2007 which contained a conversation you were having regarding an Opus ISA > SparcCard. I'm curious if this is what I currently have. This one? http://www.networkcomputing.com/unixworld/review/003.html -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 02:15:38 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 08:15:38 +0000 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> On 27/11/2012 01:38, mc68010 wrote: > I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single > bid at $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. > If someone doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone > should save it for $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 Why do these not appear in trhe UK:-( -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From chrise at pobox.com Tue Nov 27 05:33:43 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 05:33:43 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B3B735.4070506@verizon.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> <20121126172939.GG7247@n0jcf.net> <50B3B735.4070506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20121127113343.GK29604@n0jcf.net> On Monday (11/26/2012 at 01:38PM -0500), Allison wrote: > On 11/26/2012 12:29 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >On Monday (11/26/2012 at 06:56AM -0700), cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > >>I've been able to recover tapes that were damaged by a gooey capstan > >>by reading the tape until a bad block appeared, cleaning the head, > >>and repeating. > >> > >>Each pass transfers a little bit of goo from the tape to the head, > >>eventually removing enough to read the block. > >Yes. Unfortunately, what I'm experiencing is the roller in the cartridge > >embeds itself into the gooey capstan and then stops turning. It'll start > >moving fine, seeking pretty far in and then begins turning slower and > >slower until it finally fails with a motor stall error. > > > >Chris > > > The trick is if the roller on inspection is soft to the point of goo > is to NOT INSERT a tape and foul it with the goo. Correct. These rollers were not gooey in any way on inspection. They were NOS replacements I ordered from a DEC parts supplier. > These rollers all by now have failed to goo and the only choice is to > remove the roller and remove the goo and replace with tygon tubing > or other rubber product. I started seeing failed rollers more than > 18 years ago so this is not a new problem. Yes. Unfortunately, they became soft after some use. I did not have a reference for how hard they should be when new and so they seemed OK (a lot better than the disintegrated ones that were on the transports when I started). I have correct diameter (5/8"OD, 7/16"ID) tygon tubing as well as various types of o-rings on order that I will try as replacements. I am guessing about the durometer of the rubber so have a selection of different hardnesses to try and see what works. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 05:48:26 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:48:26 +0000 Subject: "recent" history - MSA1000 In-Reply-To: <50B3C86A.4060409@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B6B7FD@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <50B32C7F.6090106@gmail.com> <7D9F6700-F410-4AC9-B460-91D8F92ACCBD@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50B3C86A.4060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 November 2012 19:52, Dave Wade wrote: > On 26/11/2012 12:43, Huw Davies wrote: >> >> Compaq supporting an OpenVMS customer who were planning to use them (and >> eventually did). A few years later (about 12) and I'm now working there but >> we have moved on from MSA-1000s! > > That was kind of my recollection. Was the Digital SAN the EVA? Then there > was the "old" HSG80/HSZ80 that was really Digital... The biggest DEC array I can think of was the ESA12000 which was a pair of HSG80s and up to 4 BA370 drive enclosures, that's 96 drives, count 'em! I just built one for a customer last month :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 07:22:45 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:22:45 +0000 Subject: Looking to borrow a ESDI Hard Drive controller for PCs In-Reply-To: <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27 November 2012 01:33, mc68010 wrote: > I have a big box of ESDI drives I just want to test and sort out the bad > ones. No reason to keep hauling them around from place to place if they > don't even work. I have no intention of using them on a PC so, I'd rather > avoid buying a card I will use once. Looking for something 16bit ISA with > built in format utilities. I'll happily pay shipping both ways. I only need > it a couple of days and will get it right back home after. I think I still have an ESDI controller or 2 somewhere. I am guessing it'd do the classic DEBUG g=c800:5 type of low-level format. I am happy to post 'em internationally at cost and I don't want 'em back again afterwards. Give 'em away as free gifts with the drives, if you like. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Nov 27 08:18:08 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:18:08 +0100 Subject: Looking to borrow a ESDI Hard Drive controller for PCs In-Reply-To: <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B4CBA0.4050703@update.uu.se> On 11/27/2012 02:33 AM, mc68010 wrote: > I have a big box of ESDI drives I just want to test and sort out the > bad ones. No reason to keep hauling them around from place to place if > they don't even work. I have no intention of using them on a PC so, > I'd rather avoid buying a card I will use once. Looking for something > 16bit ISA with built in format utilities. I'll happily pay shipping > both ways. I only need it a couple of days and will get it right back > home after. If you find a controller and get around to testing them, I'm looking for ESDI drives from this list: http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/starting.shtml The ESDI drive in my IRIS works, but it would be nice with a backup or two. Regards, Pontus. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 27 09:25:18 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:25:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking to borrow a ESDI Hard Drive controller for PCs In-Reply-To: <50B4CBA0.4050703@update.uu.se> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> <50B4CBA0.4050703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2012, Pontus wrote: > On 11/27/2012 02:33 AM, mc68010 wrote: > >> I have a big box of ESDI drives I just want to test and sort out the >> bad ones. No reason to keep hauling them around from place to place if >> they don't even work. I have no intention of using them on a PC so, >> I'd rather avoid buying a card I will use once. Looking for something >> 16bit ISA with built in format utilities. I'll happily pay shipping >> both ways. I only need it a couple of days and will get it right back >> home after. > > If you find a controller and get around to testing them, I'm looking for > ESDI drives from this list: > > http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/starting.shtml > > The ESDI drive in my IRIS works, but it would be nice with a backup or > two. While it is probably a long shot, I'm also looking for a Vertex V170 or similar ST-506 compatible drive that I can use in my IRIS 1400. The original V170 appears to have a stuck head lock but because it also contains irreplaceable software I don't want to disassemble it until I have the means to do so in a dust free environment. Even then it will probably be best to have other drives to actually use in the system. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 09:50:01 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:50:01 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121127113343.GK29604@n0jcf.net> References: <20121123150636.GY29604@n0jcf.net> <50B02572.5010206@brouhaha.com> <50B08DF9.2080103@brouhaha.com> <20121124190011.GA12311@n0jcf.net> <20121125093447.1aa17f9695d581cfa3b4148d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121126023847.GB29604@n0jcf.net> <20121126172939.GG7247@n0jcf.net> <50B3B735.4070506@verizon.net> <20121127113343.GK29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50B4E129.7040603@verizon.net> On 11/27/2012 06:33 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Monday (11/26/2012 at 01:38PM -0500), Allison wrote: >> On 11/26/2012 12:29 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> On Monday (11/26/2012 at 06:56AM -0700), cctech at vax-11.org wrote: >>>> I've been able to recover tapes that were damaged by a gooey capstan >>>> by reading the tape until a bad block appeared, cleaning the head, >>>> and repeating. >>>> >>>> Each pass transfers a little bit of goo from the tape to the head, >>>> eventually removing enough to read the block. >>> Yes. Unfortunately, what I'm experiencing is the roller in the cartridge >>> embeds itself into the gooey capstan and then stops turning. It'll start >>> moving fine, seeking pretty far in and then begins turning slower and >>> slower until it finally fails with a motor stall error. >>> >>> Chris >>> >> The trick is if the roller on inspection is soft to the point of goo >> is to NOT INSERT a tape and foul it with the goo. > Correct. These rollers were not gooey in any way on inspection. > They were NOS replacements I ordered from a DEC parts supplier. > >> These rollers all by now have failed to goo and the only choice is to >> remove the roller and remove the goo and replace with tygon tubing >> or other rubber product. I started seeing failed rollers more than >> 18 years ago so this is not a new problem. > Yes. Unfortunately, they became soft after some use. I did not have > a reference for how hard they should be when new and so they seemed OK > (a lot better than the disintegrated ones that were on the transports > when I started). NOS rollers are sill OLD and shot. The only thing is NEW build. When new the roller had a hardness close to rubber tires and when they started to fail they would finger nail dent easily. > I have correct diameter (5/8"OD, 7/16"ID) tygon tubing as well as > various types of o-rings on order that I will try as replacements. > I am guessing about the durometer of the rubber so have a selection of > different hardnesses to try and see what works. > Since there was no new build back 18 years ago I went to a repair solution and have use it since. Mins was specifically a .150-.160 wide ring of tygon of the right ID to fit tight on the cleaned hub and anchored with a drop of superglue. I tried Orings and they were hard to find with the right ID/OD and it required machining the hub to have a grove to keep it. Since the tape has servo data for speed (part of the encoding) the OD of the roller can vary with no ill effects so long as mechanical fit and traction are good. Allison From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 11:52:37 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:52:37 -0800 Subject: Looking to borrow a ESDI Hard Drive controller for PCs In-Reply-To: <50B4CBA0.4050703@update.uu.se> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B4185C.6020604@gmail.com> <50B4CBA0.4050703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50B4FDE5.1080106@gmail.com> On 11/27/2012 6:18 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 11/27/2012 02:33 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> I have a big box of ESDI drives I just want to test and sort out the >> bad ones. No reason to keep hauling them around from place to place >> if they don't even work. I have no intention of using them on a PC >> so, I'd rather avoid buying a card I will use once. Looking for >> something 16bit ISA with built in format utilities. I'll happily pay >> shipping both ways. I only need it a couple of days and will get it >> right back home after. > > If you find a controller and get around to testing them, I'm looking > for ESDI drives from this list: > > http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/starting.shtml > > The ESDI drive in my IRIS works, but it would be nice with a backup or > two. > > I just did a quick look and all mine are much larger ESDI drives. Think the smallest is a 380mb Maxtor. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 14:05:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:05:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <50B2DBDE.9050901@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 25, 12 08:02:54 pm Message-ID: > I think it should be perfectly possible to format a tape without those > sensors. Starting from the physical BOT, just make sure you write a > sufficient amount of BOT marks before writing the actual records, and > after the last record, write EOT marks until the physical EOT. The > motor current sense should be able to detect the physical EOT. If not, > I'm OK with manually sending a command to the drive when it hits EOT. I > don't think the motor has enough torque to damage the cartridge, > although I'll test that with a scratch cartridge first. In most, if not all, such cartridges, the tape is not fixed to the spools (I've not dismantled a TU58 tape to check, I have repaired several other cartridges though). If you wind too far, the tape comes off the spool and you have to dismantle the cartridge to rethread it. So if you want to go from BOT to EOT, you have to have some kind of optical sensort. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 14:07:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:07:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: from "cctech@vax-11.org" at Nov 25, 12 08:49:06 pm Message-ID: > > Modify tapes to contain an embedded USB stick, modify drive* to accept them, > > retain user experience of inserting/removing cartridge... ;-) > > > > * including delays, occasional errors etc., of course. But this does not retain the user (OK,'hacker') experience of repairing decayed captans, cleaning heads, retrheding tapes that have come off the spool i nthe cartridge, and so on. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 15:51:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:51:28 -0800 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B535E0.8040209@sydex.com> On 11/27/2012 12:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > In most, if not all, such cartridges, the tape is not fixed to the spools > (I've not dismantled a TU58 tape to check, I have repaired several other > cartridges though). If you wind too far, the tape comes off the spool and > you have to dismantle the cartridge to rethread it. Back in the 80s when I was fooling around with QIC (DC600) carts, I had a couple of carts (due to a malfuncitoning drive) that had the tape despooled. A call to the 3M tech support hotline assured me that this was an unocmmon occurrence--and the solution was straightforward. Carefully open the cartridge, thread the loose end of the tape through the guides and attach it to the empty spool hub. When I asked how one "attaches" a tape end to the hub, there was an awkward moment of silence and then a "well, saliva works for me" response. Indeed, many cartridges later, I can attest that it certainly does. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 16:47:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 16:47:39 -0600 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: or in canada On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > On 27/11/2012 01:38, mc68010 wrote: > >> I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid >> at $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If someone >> doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save it for >> $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/**160930444034 >> > > Why do these not appear in trhe UK:-( > > -- > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 18:25:23 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:25:23 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9B7F81DD-BF43-4627-84EC-2D758C19FFCA@gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> Why do these not appear in trhe UK:-( >> > or in canada To be fair, Rochester isn't *that* far from Canada, for specific values of "Canada". - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 27 18:32:21 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 17:32:21 -0700 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <9B7F81DD-BF43-4627-84EC-2D758C19FFCA@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> <9B7F81DD-BF43-4627-84EC-2D758C19FFCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B55B95.7040903@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/27/2012 5:25 PM, David Riley wrote: > To be fair, Rochester isn't *that* far from Canada, for specific > values of "Canada". It is the Yule Tide seasion keeping me from spending on my Hobies. > - Dave Ben. From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 27 18:34:59 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:34:59 -0500 Subject: 68360 help In-Reply-To: <1353931888.11467.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1353931888.11467.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00fa01cdcd00$34113750$9c33a5f0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi The good news is that we've finally fixed the problem and now the MC68360 P1 boots as it should. It is able to use the 8-bit output port to help with debugging. The problem turned out to be the XFC capacitor is tuned to the main clock input and varies with clock speed. We were trying to use a slower clock (4 MHz) than recommended for debugging while the sample schematic uses a 25 MHz clock and an XFC capacitor. Switching from the 4 MHz clock to the recommended 25 MHz clock and it boots just fine. The QUICC documentation is pretty good but enormous and complex. It is going to take a while to work through it all though. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch PS, if anyone is experienced with MC68360 and would like to help out with the MC68040 SBC project there are a couple of prototype PCBs left. We could probably use another set of eyes on this project to help catch some of these issues. You'll need some prototype debugging experience and a lot of patience. We aren't going to start on the MC68040 companion mode until we get the MC68360 QUICC board working completely. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:11 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Fw: 68360 help > > Hi > > Received a request for help on a MC68360 prototype board. This is an > intermediate step to the planned MC68040 SBC. If anyone has expertise > with the MC68360 and can help please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM > or on the N8VEM mailing list. > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 18:36:05 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 18:36:05 -0600 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <9B7F81DD-BF43-4627-84EC-2D758C19FFCA@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> <9B7F81DD-BF43-4627-84EC-2D758C19FFCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: i'm 1400 miles away On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:25 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Nov 27, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> Why do these not appear in trhe UK:-( > >> > > or in canada > > To be fair, Rochester isn't *that* far from Canada, for specific > values of "Canada". > > > - Dave > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 27 22:06:10 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 23:06:10 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B476AA.2070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B58DB2.4010904@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/11/12 5:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > or in canada > Dude, we couldn't handle them if they did. Transport, space, ... :( --Toby > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> On 27/11/2012 01:38, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> ... Looks like Rochester, NY. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/**160930444034 >>> >> >> Why do these not appear in trhe UK:-( >> >> -- >> Dave Wade G4UGM >> Illegitimi Non Carborundum >> >> > From cool1 at thecoolbears.org Tue Nov 27 13:09:40 2012 From: cool1 at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:09:40 -0800 Subject: Plastic Repair Message-ID: Call me odd, but my absolute, top favorite computer is my MicroVAX in a BA123 chassis. If the house were burning, that would be the one computer I would try to retrieve. Sadly, last night, the daughter snapped the corner off the louvers on the top left of the chassis. Unless some kind sole has a replacement part, I plan on gluing the pieces back on. My question is, cyanoacrylate or epoxy? From arkaxow at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 01:45:26 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 02:45:26 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet Keyboard Repair Message-ID: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> I am working on getting a Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet keyboard working again. Some of the keys were not working. So I disassembled it and cleaned it. But some of the keys still didn?t work properly. I noticed that some of the keys had something metallic on the bottom of them and others didn?t. It appeared to be random. I talked to some friends and they seemed to think that that the rubber in the keys is a sorta conductive silicon. My suspicion is that this silicon becomes less conductive over time or is not reliable to being with. It seems that the previous owner had fixed some keys by adding some metal to the bottom of the keys. I think it is ordinary aluminum, but I am not sure. When I replaced one of the keys with the thin metal on the bottom to previously not working key, then it worked. My plan is to put this metal on the bottom of all the keys so that they will all work and be reliable. If anyone knows what kind of metal it is and where I can buy it, then I would appreciate it ! Thanks, Jeff Brace From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 28 02:09:22 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 02:09:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2012, David Coolbear wrote: > Call me odd, but my absolute, top favorite computer is my MicroVAX in a > BA123 chassis. If the house were burning, that would be the one computer > I would try to retrieve. Sadly, last night, the daughter snapped the > corner off the louvers on the top left of the chassis. Unless some kind > sole has a replacement part, I plan on gluing the pieces back on. My > question is, cyanoacrylate or epoxy? Neither. Epoxies won't stick well to plastic and cyanoacrylate type "glues" (superglue, crazyglue, etc) will make an extremely brittle joint and will make future repairs nearly impossible. If it is ABS plastic, use dichloromethane (methylene chloride) to solvent weld it back together. Align the parts and allow the solvent to get into the joint via capillary action. Be careful not to push the parts together hard enough to squeeze plastic out of the joint because that will make the joint brittle too. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 28 02:22:15 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 02:22:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet Keyboard Repair In-Reply-To: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> References: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > I am working on getting a Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet keyboard working > again. Some of the keys were not working. So I disassembled it and > cleaned it. But some of the keys still didn?t work properly. I noticed > that some of the keys had something metallic on the bottom of them and > others didn?t. It appeared to be random. I talked to some friends and > they seemed to think that that the rubber in the keys is a sorta > conductive silicon. My suspicion is that this silicon becomes less > conductive over time or is not reliable to being with. It seems that the > previous owner had fixed some keys by adding some metal to the bottom of > the keys. I think it is ordinary aluminum, but I am not sure. When I > replaced one of the keys with the thin metal on the bottom to previously > not working key, then it worked. My plan is to put this metal on the > bottom of all the keys so that they will all work and be reliable. If > anyone knows what kind of metal it is and where I can buy it, then I > would appreciate it ! Maybe he used something like a 3M 3311 foil tape? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?field-keywords=3M+3311 I'm not sure how well the adhesive would hold up long term since it isn't intended for this application, but it is still very cheap. Another option might be a foil tape that is made for electronic/EMI shielding applications. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/AdhesivesForElectronics/Home/Products/EMIEMC/ShieldingFoilTapes/ Something like the MG Chemicals 8339 rubber keypad repair kit might also work if these buttons are using a conductive carbon contact. (I personally preferred the older pre-RoHS version with the 3 small bottles though.) http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/prototyping-and-circuit-repair/circuit-repair/rubber-keypad-repair-kit-8339/ http://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-8339-Rubber-Keypad/dp/B0081SGM8M From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Nov 28 02:47:51 2012 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:47:51 +1100 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008001cdcd45$0d7ebe60$287c3b20$@internode.on.net> I had a similar problem with an old case from the 70's so I went to the local hobby shop first (as I suspect that a hardware store would sell me something more general) - after all hobby shops are the plastic experts - they sold me this. Fantastic and has heaps of other uses - I even used it to repair the broken support on a monitor - it was cast aluminium. http://www.rapidfixaustralia.com.au/about-rapidfix.html ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Coolbear Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012 6:10 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Plastic Repair Call me odd, but my absolute, top favorite computer is my MicroVAX in a BA123 chassis. If the house were burning, that would be the one computer I would try to retrieve. Sadly, last night, the daughter snapped the corner off the louvers on the top left of the chassis. Unless some kind sole has a replacement part, I plan on gluing the pieces back on. My question is, cyanoacrylate or epoxy? From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Nov 28 02:55:50 2012 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:55:50 +1100 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <008001cdcd45$0d7ebe60$287c3b20$@internode.on.net> References: <008001cdcd45$0d7ebe60$287c3b20$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <008601cdcd46$2d35ae70$87a10b50$@internode.on.net> I should add that as I did, test in an inconspicuous place first. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Parker Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012 7:48 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Plastic Repair I had a similar problem with an old case from the 70's so I went to the local hobby shop first (as I suspect that a hardware store would sell me something more general) - after all hobby shops are the plastic experts - they sold me this. Fantastic and has heaps of other uses - I even used it to repair the broken support on a monitor - it was cast aluminium. http://www.rapidfixaustralia.com.au/about-rapidfix.html ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Coolbear Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012 6:10 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Plastic Repair Call me odd, but my absolute, top favorite computer is my MicroVAX in a BA123 chassis. If the house were burning, that would be the one computer I would try to retrieve. Sadly, last night, the daughter snapped the corner off the louvers on the top left of the chassis. Unless some kind sole has a replacement part, I plan on gluing the pieces back on. My question is, cyanoacrylate or epoxy? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 28 10:37:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 08:37:33 -0800 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B63DCD.5080509@sydex.com> On 11/28/2012 12:09 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > Neither. Epoxies won't stick well to plastic and cyanoacrylate type > "glues" (superglue, crazyglue, etc) will make an extremely brittle joint > and will make future repairs nearly impossible. If it is ABS plastic, > use dichloromethane (methylene chloride) to solvent weld it back > together. Align the parts and allow the solvent to get into the joint > via capillary action. Be careful not to push the parts together hard > enough to squeeze plastic out of the joint because that will make the > joint brittle too. Agreed on that one. Two days ago, I repaired the broken-off "tang" on a bezel to a 3.5" drive. No more than about 3mm wide and 2mm thick, solvent cement did a perfect job in restoring the part. I used a hobby-variety brand called "Tenax 7.R'. Dichloromethane is also referred to as "methyl chloride". Done well, the repair is invisible and will not show discoloration with age. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 11:20:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 12:20:57 -0500 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <50B63DCD.5080509@sydex.com> References: <50B63DCD.5080509@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3635E24C-1017-4261-877C-14D7B38D5935@gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/28/2012 12:09 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Neither. Epoxies won't stick well to plastic and cyanoacrylate type >> "glues" (superglue, crazyglue, etc) will make an extremely brittle joint >> and will make future repairs nearly impossible. If it is ABS plastic, >> use dichloromethane (methylene chloride) to solvent weld it back >> together. Align the parts and allow the solvent to get into the joint >> via capillary action. Be careful not to push the parts together hard >> enough to squeeze plastic out of the joint because that will make the >> joint brittle too. > > Agreed on that one. Two days ago, I repaired the broken-off "tang" on a bezel to a 3.5" drive. No more than about 3mm wide and 2mm thick, solvent cement did a perfect job in restoring the part. I used a hobby-variety brand called "Tenax 7.R'. Dichloromethane is also referred to as "methyl chloride". Done well, the repair is invisible and will not show discoloration with age. I've used methylene chloride to clean Sharpie off homemade PCBs before, but I used the last of it a long time ago (my father used to be a chemist and had an old bottle of it). Nice stuff, but keep it off your hands unless you want to look like a reptile for a while (and probably worse things). In any case, it seems Tenax 7R is discontinued, which is a shame since I have some Mac case parts which broke recently. www.modeltrainstuff.com seems to have a few bottles left, though; I just ordered two, so they should have six left if anyone's looking to get some. Otherwise, you'll probably need to get it in bulk from a chemical supply place. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 28 11:46:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:46:15 -0800 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <3635E24C-1017-4261-877C-14D7B38D5935@gmail.com> References: <50B63DCD.5080509@sydex.com> <3635E24C-1017-4261-877C-14D7B38D5935@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B64DE7.4030300@sydex.com> On 11/28/2012 09:20 AM, David Riley wrote: > In any case, it seems Tenax 7R is discontinued, which is a > shame since I have some Mac case parts which broke recently. > www.modeltrainstuff.com seems to have a few bottles left, > though; I just ordered two, so they should have six left if > anyone's looking to get some. Otherwise, you'll probably need > to get it in bulk from a chemical supply place. Ambroid Pro-Weld is another option that contains dichloromethane, although in my experience, it's not quite as efficacious as Tenax. But it does seem to be readily available. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 14:01:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:01:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <50B63DCD.5080509@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 28, 12 08:37:33 am Message-ID: > Agreed on that one. Two days ago, I repaired the broken-off "tang" on And another support of solvent welding. > a bezel to a 3.5" drive. No more than about 3mm wide and 2mm thick, > solvent cement did a perfect job in restoring the part. I used a > hobby-variety brand called "Tenax 7.R'. Dichloromethane is also > referred to as "methyl chloride". Done well, the repair is invisible Is it? I must admit I never realy used the traditional names, but I thought methyl chloride was CH_3.Cl and methylene chloride == dichloromethane == CH_2.Cl_2 If you have space, and an 'invisible side' to the repair (say the inside of the case) you can make it even stringer ny cutting a piece of cototn fablric (e.g. an old shirt) to cover the repari, putting it on, and 'painting' it lberally with the solvemt. Oce the plastic has softened, force the fabric into it. Let hte solvent evaporate, and it should be good as new. One warning,.. If the plastic hs becoem weak/brittle with age (as many do), this rerpair will not reverse that. So the part may well fial agian, in a different place, perhaps, before long. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 13:38:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:38:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121127113343.GK29604@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Nov 27, 12 05:33:43 am Message-ID: > Correct. These rollers were not gooey in any way on inspection. > They were NOS replacements I ordered from a DEC parts supplier. Unfortuantely, they deacy with time, not really with use. So a NOS one is likely to be unusable. > > I have correct diameter (5/8"OD, 7/16"ID) tygon tubing as well as > various types of o-rings on order that I will try as replacements. > I am guessing about the durometer of the rubber so have a selection of > different hardnesses to try and see what works. Rik Bos reported that a Citroen seelve seal (the largest size) could be stretched ovr the hub of the capstan in an HP tape drive that uses simialr-sized cartridges. That mey be suitabkle for the TU58 too. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 14:26:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 12:26:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121128122536.S23212@shell.lmi.net> With SOME plastics, (usual disclaimers), you can get some further strength by taking a soldering iron and run it along the glued seam, melting the edges together. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 14:27:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 12:27:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121128122644.R23212@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > One warning,.. If the plastic hs becoem weak/brittle with age (as many > do), this rerpair will not reverse that. So the part may well fial agian, > in a different place, perhaps, before long. For that, you need Ubik. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Nov 28 14:45:45 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:45:45 +0000 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <20121128122644.R23212@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121128122644.R23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 28 November 2012 20:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> One warning,.. If the plastic hs becoem weak/brittle with age (as many >> do), this rerpair will not reverse that. So the part may well fial agian, >> in a different place, perhaps, before long. > > For that, you need Ubik. > Just pay the door. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 28 15:07:48 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:07:48 +0100 Subject: HP 2113B psu question Message-ID: <006301cdcdac$6f27ca00$4d775e00$@xs4all.nl> One of my HP 2113B CPU's doesn't boot the right way, after switching it on all lights are on except the over flow light which stays out. I know it should be an memory error, but removing all the memory boards and starting with a known good memory controller and memory board gives the same result. Because the PSU has the power fail option and I removed the batteries and placed the plug at the battery in connector, I now suspect the PSU. The voltages checked out ok, except the 5M and 12M voltages come up a few seconds (5 to 10 seconds) later than the rest of the voltages. I'm afraid the time interval is too long but I'm not sure. Is there anyone who knows what the interval should be ? Or has any clou why it's not working ? -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 28 15:16:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:16:14 -0800 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> On 11/28/2012 12:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Is it? I must admit I never realy used the traditional names, but I > thought methyl chloride was CH_3.Cl and methylene chloride == > dichloromethane == CH_2.Cl_2 I didn't say it was *accurately* called that, but I've heard it commonly referred to in that manner, even after I pointed out that methyl chloride isn't a liquid at STP. > One warning,.. If the plastic hs becoem weak/brittle with age (as many > do), this rerpair will not reverse that. So the part may well fial agian, > in a different place, perhaps, before long. If there is an invisible side to the brittle part, gluing (choose your adhesive according to the substrate) some fiberglass cloth on the invisible side can often make what appears to be an un-salvageable item workable. If there are missing pieces, don't forget your friend, auto body filler (AKA "Bondo") and paint. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 16:55:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:55:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> Pickup free in Berkeley, or Priority Mail rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 Seagate 212 drive, with formed clear plastic top cover; probably a booth demo for a tradeshow 2 heads (one inner, one outer on top of single platter SSI 117-4CP 22 pin chip. in Tandon TN 362 (3.5" hard drive) with no top cover, heads and upper platter destoyed, no circuit board. drive and stepper motors possibly salvageable. Cords, possibly from a Hitachi? LCD projector: (in unopened plastic bags) DE15F to 4-pin+key mini-DIN labeled "ABD" DE15F to 6-pin+key mini-DIN labeled "PS/2" DE15F to DE9F IEC power cord with 2 round pin mains plug IEC power cord with mains plug 2 straight blades in a line, with perpendicular ground blade "13A 250V" "Fused" "Office 97 Starts Here" in opened box TWO copies CD-ROMS: "Compaq Restore CD (Deskpro, iPaq, and Workstation Series Version 1.5 "Requiress the Compaq Operating System CD" 2 copies "Compaq Restore CD (Deskpro, iPaq, and Workstation Series Version 1.8 "Requiress the Compaq Operating System CD" 2 copies "Compaq Armada Refernce Library & Quick Reference" E500/M300/V300 176361-001/95 "Compaq Armada Refernce Library & Quick Reference" E500/M300 176383-001/98 "Compaq CD For Microsoft Windows Nt Workstation 4.0 \n Operating System" 6 copies "Microsoft WindowsNT Service Pack 6A" 6 copies "Compaq CD for Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional ]\n Operating System" 2 copies "Compaq Operating System CD \n W2K with SP1" 2 copies "Compaq Operating System CD \n W2K Optional SP1" 2 copies "Compaq Deskpro reference Library" 7 copies "2 Market : Your Interactive Shopping Service" Macintosh "Visioneer OneTouch 7600USB" "requires Windows 98" "Compaq DVDExpress \n DVD Movie Player" Windows 95/98 "Compaq Armada E500/V300 Series \n Supplemental Software for Docking Bases" Windows 95/98 "Macromedia Director8 \n Shockwave Studio" Windows 95/98/NT4 "Apple January 1996 Provider Edition" Apple Reference" Disk 1 "Apple July '94 1997 Partner Edition" Apple Reference" Disk 1 "For Apple Internal Use Only" "Apple July '94 1997 Partner Edition" Apple Reference" Disk 2 "For Apple Internal Use Only" "Apple July '94 1997 Partner Edition" Apple Reference" Disk 3 "For Apple Internal Use Only" "Type On Call 4.1 (Adobe) "Discovering Adobe Acrobat" "Apple Macintosh CD" Powerbook system software 5300/2300/190 and PowerPC hardware upgrades "Sound Forge XP" "Macromedia Fireworks3" 95/98/NT "Adobe Software Solutions & Product Sampler" "HP LaserJet 4000 Series Printing System & Utilities" "Apple April 1998 Provider Edition" Apple Reference" Disk 1 "Microsoft Bookshelf 98" reference Library Much much more esoteric crap to come. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 17:07:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121128150633.S23212@shell.lmi.net> > Seagate 212 drive, with formed clear plastic top cover; probably a booth > demo for a tradeshow 2 heads (one inner, one outer on top of single > platter 2 heads topside/2 heads underneath WAS that the "FIRST" "half-height" hard disk? From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Nov 28 22:40:05 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 04:40:05 +0000 Subject: Tru64 Software Products Library In-Reply-To: <20121128150633.S23212@shell.lmi.net> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net>,<20121128150633.S23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Any Alpha and/or Tru64 fans on the list? Anyone have a really recent Software Products Library (May 2010) set they'd like part with for some consideration, and/or, a really old set (jan 98, oct 97, or jul 97)? Thanks in advance!! -Ben From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 28 23:05:26 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:05:26 -0800 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> References: , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone have a data book for National Semiconductor fromaround 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 parts.A part number or scan would be great.Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 00:40:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:40:26 -0800 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: References: , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B7035A.3060704@sydex.com> On 11/28/2012 09:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Does anyone have a data book for National Semiconductor fromaround > 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a > system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 > parts.A part number or scan would be great.Dwight > The NSC800 was more of National's response to the 8085, so it'd figure that it'd have 8085-like support chips. For example, the NSC810 was the RAM+I/O+Timer chip. Is that what you had in mind? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 00:56:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:56:33 -0800 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: References: , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B70721.90300@sydex.com> On 11/28/2012 09:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Does anyone have a data book for National Semiconductor fromaround > 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a > system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 > parts.A part number or scan would be great.Dwight > Oh--and the other member was the NSC830/831 - the ROM+I/O+. Roughly, the 8355 equivalent, where the NSC810 was the 8155 equivalent. --CHuck From arkaxow at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 01:19:47 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 02:19:47 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet Keyboard Repair In-Reply-To: References: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Tothwolf Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 3:22 AM On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> not working key, then it worked. My plan is to put this metal on the >> bottom of all the keys so that they will all work and be reliable. If >> anyone knows what kind of metal it is and where I can buy it, then I >> would appreciate it ! >Maybe he used something like a 3M 3311 foil tape? Tothwolf, Thanks for the reply ! I will look into these suggestions. I would like an understanding of which types of metals would work best. It seems that silver would work best, but it is very expensive. And there seems to be adhesives, coatings and more solid types of different materials. I suppose that aluminum wouldn't work as well as silver or copper. The piece that the previous owner used has a silvery color to it. So it is probably foil. Jeff From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 01:29:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 05:29:59 -0200 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet Keyboard Repair References: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: >>Maybe he used something like a 3M 3311 foil tape? I used double sided tape and common aluminium foil... http://www.tabalabs.com.br/videogames/atari/controle_5200/ Works flawlessly :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 29 05:46:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:46:12 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet Keyboard Repair In-Reply-To: References: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <50B74B04.8040804@neurotica.com> On 11/29/2012 02:19 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > Thanks for the reply ! I will look into these suggestions. I would like > an understanding of which types of metals would work best. It seems that > silver would work best, but it is very expensive. And there seems to be > adhesives, coatings and more solid types of different materials. I > suppose that aluminum wouldn't work as well as silver or copper. The > piece that the previous owner used has a silvery color to it. So it is > probably foil. I would think silver would be the worst, as it tarnishes (corrodes) in air. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 06:14:01 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:14:01 +0100 Subject: Tru64 Software Products Library In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> <20121128150633.S23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: 2012/11/29 Benjamin Huntsman : > Any Alpha and/or Tru64 fans on the list? > > Anyone have a really recent Software Products Library (May 2010) set they'd like part with for some consideration, and/or, a really old set (jan 98, oct 97, or jul 97)? -> Also woul like to get original isc/s for tru64 ;) (also, OpenVMS would be awesome.) -- Ola Hughson From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 29 08:33:34 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 08:33:34 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121127113343.GK29604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121129143334.GC23218@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (11/28/2012 at 07:38PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > Correct. These rollers were not gooey in any way on inspection. > > They were NOS replacements I ordered from a DEC parts supplier. > > Unfortuantely, they deacy with time, not really with use. So a NOS one is > likely to be unusable. Yes. I've learned this now. I mistakenly assumed my original ones had decayed due to how the unit was stored (basically outside)-- and it was extreme heat, cold and ozone that did it in. Now, it's pretty clear it's an issue of the material and time. > > I have correct diameter (5/8"OD, 7/16"ID) tygon tubing as well as > > various types of o-rings on order that I will try as replacements. > > I am guessing about the durometer of the rubber so have a selection of > > different hardnesses to try and see what works. > > Rik Bos reported that a Citroen seelve seal (the largest size) could be > stretched ovr the hub of the capstan in an HP tape drive that uses > simialr-sized cartridges. That mey be suitabkle for the TU58 too. OK. Thanks for that. I've got the Tygon tubing in hand and will try that first. Having a little trouble coming up with a good way to cut it squarely though as it likes to deform while cutting. This is causing the first attempts to come out non-uniform in height. I think I need to put a 7/16" dowel inside it and then cut it on the dowel (or through the dowel in a small mitre box)-- unless others have a good technique for getting a nice square cut? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Nov 29 10:26:38 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:26:38 -0500 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121129143334.GC23218@n0jcf.net> References: <20121127113343.GK29604@n0jcf.net> <20121129143334.GC23218@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50B78CBE.6030301@verizon.net> On 11/29/2012 09:33 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (11/28/2012 at 07:38PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: >>> Correct. These rollers were not gooey in any way on inspection. >>> They were NOS replacements I ordered from a DEC parts supplier. >> Unfortuantely, they deacy with time, not really with use. So a NOS one is >> likely to be unusable. > Yes. I've learned this now. I mistakenly assumed my original ones had > decayed due to how the unit was stored (basically outside)-- and it was > extreme heat, cold and ozone that did it in. Now, it's pretty clear > it's an issue of the material and time. > >>> I have correct diameter (5/8"OD, 7/16"ID) tygon tubing as well as >>> various types of o-rings on order that I will try as replacements. >>> I am guessing about the durometer of the rubber so have a selection of >>> different hardnesses to try and see what works. >> Rik Bos reported that a Citroen seelve seal (the largest size) could be >> stretched ovr the hub of the capstan in an HP tape drive that uses >> simialr-sized cartridges. That mey be suitabkle for the TU58 too. > OK. Thanks for that. I've got the Tygon tubing in hand and will try > that first. Having a little trouble coming up with a good way to cut > it squarely though as it likes to deform while cutting. This is causing > the first attempts to come out non-uniform in height. I think I need > to put a 7/16" dowel inside it and then cut it on the dowel (or through > the dowel in a small mitre box)-- unless others have a good technique > for getting a nice square cut? > > Chris I just put an over size slice on the hub after cleaning and used a bit of superglue to lock it. With the motor powered and tuning I use an exacto knife to slice to top level with the top of the hub and then make a cut down to metal about .160 down from there for a clean edge. Any excess is peeled off. Then I used an emery board while spinning to smooth and take the glazed surface off. The whole process takes me a few minutes and I'm done. I don't try to over complicate it. It needs to be the right width for proper contact and no interference with the case and you can eyeball that. That and reasonably round is good too. One thing, even with tygon do not leave the tape in contact when not in use, as everything I've tried (other materials) get a flat spot in the roller that makes the drive noisy even though it works fine. Allison From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 10:43:58 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 08:43:58 -0800 Subject: For Sale: DEC LK-401 Keyboards Message-ID: <50B790CE.4030209@gmail.com> Hi folks, I have a lot of 5 Digital LK401 keyboards. I am asking $20 each plus shipping from 91942 (San Diego). Contact me off the list if you're interested. Thanks! -Kurt From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 11:37:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:37:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Chiclet Keyboard Repair In-Reply-To: <50B74B04.8040804@neurotica.com> References: <103CF9C00AD741B9A2EA79B8EB242439@ArkCompNew> <50B74B04.8040804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/29/2012 02:19 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > >> Thanks for the reply ! I will look into these suggestions. I would like >> an understanding of which types of metals would work best. It seems >> that silver would work best, but it is very expensive. And there seems >> to be adhesives, coatings and more solid types of different materials. >> I suppose that aluminum wouldn't work as well as silver or copper. The >> piece that the previous owner used has a silvery color to it. So it is >> probably foil. > > I would think silver would be the worst, as it tarnishes (corrodes) in > air. Actually, silver oxide is conductive and is very soft. Aluminum oxide is non-conductive and extremely hard. On the other hand, gold isn't as good of a conductor and is very soft, but it doesn't tarnish. From thomasmernst at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 02:14:37 2012 From: thomasmernst at gmail.com (thomas ernst) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:14:37 -1000 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: <50B70721.90300@sydex.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to> <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> <50B70721.90300@sydex.com> Message-ID: Does this help? http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/321/NSC800-pdf.php Thomas On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/28/2012 09:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> >> >> Hi Does anyone have a data book for National Semiconductor fromaround >> 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a >> system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 >> parts.A part number or scan would be great.Dwight >> > > Oh--and the other member was the NSC830/831 - the ROM+I/O+. Roughly, the > 8355 equivalent, where the NSC810 was the 8155 equivalent. > > --CHuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 29 12:59:50 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:59:50 -0800 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: References: , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50B7B0A6.5040203@bitsavers.org> On 11/28/12 9:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 parts. 1990 is REALLY late for NSC800. The only NSC800 catalog I have was from 1981. By 1990, everything is COP/HPC From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 13:43:01 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:43:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: References: , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Does anyone have a data book for National Semiconductor fromaround > 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a > system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 parts.A > part number or scan would be great.Dwight I have a 1980 edition of the Interface Databook and a 1985 edition of the NSC800 Microprocessor Family Databook. Would either of these have the information you are looking for? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 13:55:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 19:55:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 28, 12 02:55:03 pm Message-ID: > Cords, possibly from a Hitachi? LCD projector: > (in unopened plastic bags) > DE15F to 4-pin+key mini-DIN labeled "ABD" Is 'ADB'? It would be the right connector for that. > > DE15F to 6-pin+key mini-DIN labeled "PS/2" > > DE15F to DE9F > > IEC power cord with 2 round pin mains plug Maybe a German mains lead. The plug itself is almost round, with 2 round pins. There are earthing cotnacts on the sides of the plug body > IEC power cord with mains plug 2 straight blades in a line, with > perpendicular ground blade "13A 250V" "Fused" Almsot certainly a UK (BS1363) mains plug. The 'blades;' should be quite thich rectanguar pins, with the earth pin larger in all 3 dimensions to the others. The fuse is a 1" long cartridge fuse either inside the plug 9if it's not moulded to the cable) or under in a holder on the pin face of the plug. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 14:04:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 20:04:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: <20121129143334.GC23218@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Nov 29, 12 08:33:34 am Message-ID: > OK. Thanks for that. I've got the Tygon tubing in hand and will try > that first. Having a little trouble coming up with a good way to cut > it squarely though as it likes to deform while cutting. This is causing > the first attempts to come out non-uniform in height. I think I need > to put a 7/16" dowel inside it and then cut it on the dowel (or through > the dowel in a small mitre box)-- unless others have a good technique > for getting a nice square cut? What I do is this : Cut an over-long piece roughly, making sure I haev enough to cut the ragged ends off and still have the bit I want. Put the tubing on suitable rod as a mandrel Any material will do, wood, steel, etc. Put it i nthe 3 jaw chucj of the lathe. Hold a knife against the side of the toolpost and move the altter to get the blade where I want if over the tubing. Tunr the lathe _by hand_. Don't even think of using the motor unless you wanta knife blade stuck in you. Prest the blade agaisn the tubing to cut it. Move the toolpost to ge the lrnght of tubing I wnt. cut again Slide the bits off the mandrel and keep the one I want. Since you don't need the accuracy of the lathe, you might be able to rig soemthign up usin a hand drill, a block of fwood to guide the knife against, etc. -tony From ed.spittles at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 14:47:09 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 20:47:09 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quick update: On 18 November 2012 19:43, Ed Spittles wrote: > Fantastic! I got in touch with Hector Parr, and he directed me to a > memoir he's written, and I now have a story: One Alan Wilkinson wrote > the book 'Computer Models' (a copy is now on its way to me) which is > most likely inspired by Brian Crank's article series. I now think Alan started the whole thing, as his book was preceded by articles in the magazine of the Association of Teachers of Mathematics. His work would have inspired both Brian and Hector. Note that Alan's book describes only a model - more or less an ALU - whereas the others actually built computers. > Alan was > teaching at Spennymoor Grammar School, and Hector was teaching at the > nearby Darlington Grammar School. Hector read Alan's book and > proceeded to get the Maths department and pupils to finance and build > a machine called DENICE, designed from scratch but with inspiration > from the book. > > Alan moved on to Teesside Polytechnic where he looked after an IBM > 1620, which was made available to schoolchildren. > > Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School Where he again built a machine, this time called BRENDA (Barnardian Electronic Numerical Demonstration Apparatus) - there are a couple of Usenet posts by John Gilliver which tell us more about this. > I wrote up some notes on the WW machine here: > http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2333 Updated. Cheers Ed From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 14:59:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Cords, possibly from a Hitachi? LCD projector: > > (in unopened plastic bags) > > DE15F to 4-pin+key mini-DIN labeled "ABD" > Is 'ADB'? It would be the right connector for that. Absolutely correct. I think that I make more typos than anybody else here. > > DE15F to DE9F THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! (therefore, I don't trust the [factory] labelling of anything of them) If I put it on eBay, I'd better call it "DB15 to DB9" Also have an adapter DE9F to DA15M, with 6 switches on the side. > > IEC power cord with 2 round pin mains plug > Maybe a German mains lead. The plug itself is almost round, with 2 round > pins. There are earthing cotnacts on the sides of the plug body Yes > > IEC power cord with mains plug 2 straight blades in a line, with > > perpendicular ground blade "13A 250V" "Fused" > Almsot certainly a UK (BS1363) mains plug. The 'blades;' should be quite > thich rectanguar pins, with the earth pin larger in all 3 dimensions to > the others. The fuse is a 1" long cartridge fuse either inside the plug > 9if it's not moulded to the cable) or under in a holder on the pin face > of the plug. Yes Do you want them? If not, does ANYBODY want that kind of stuff? (There is a metric buttload of stuff that I can't even get to until some stuff starts leaving. (Y'know those puzzles with square pieces with numbers on them, or different shaped rectangles, and one unoccupied square? - I need to clear that "unoccupied" square!)) I would prefer to not have to pay much postage nor dump fees to get rid of it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 15:28:14 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:28:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: Fred, I'd be interested in knowing what C or Turbo Pascal (if any) stuff you had available... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 15:44:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:44:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: References: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121129133805.S56260@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, geneb wrote: > Fred, I'd be interested in knowing what C or Turbo Pascal (if any) stuff > you had available... I've got some miscellaneous books; I'll try to dig a few out this weekend I am NOT getting rid of any of my copies of K&R nor Knuth. (If I do get rid of any of those, it'll prob'ly be on ebay - you can imagine what I would want for my autographed copy of Knuth's first published work!) But, I've got a lot of miscellaneous and third party books on C, and maybe a few Pascal books. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 16:04:15 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:04:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> IEC power cord with 2 round pin mains plug >> Maybe a German mains lead. The plug itself is almost round, with 2 >> round pins. There are earthing cotnacts on the sides of the plug body > Yes Sounds like a CEE 7/7 to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7.2F7_plug >>> IEC power cord with mains plug 2 straight blades in a line, with >>> perpendicular ground blade "13A 250V" "Fused" >> Almsot certainly a UK (BS1363) mains plug. The 'blades;' should be >> quite thich rectanguar pins, with the earth pin larger in all 3 >> dimensions to the others. The fuse is a 1" long cartridge fuse either >> inside the plug 9if it's not moulded to the cable) or under in a holder >> on the pin face of the plug. > Yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS1363 > Do you want them? > > If not, does ANYBODY want that kind of stuff? (There is a metric > buttload of stuff that I can't even get to until some stuff starts > leaving. (Y'know those puzzles with square pieces with numbers on them, > or different shaped rectangles, and one unoccupied square? - I need to > clear that "unoccupied" square!)) I would prefer to not have to pay much > postage nor dump fees to get rid of it. If someone else doesn't need them for a specific purpose, I could always use stuff such as this for taking photos for Wikipedia. It is incredibly difficult to create standard looking sets of photos for various plugs and sockets. For that fact, does anyone happen to have a copy of one of the earlier IEC 320 standard documents? I'd still like to create proper dimensional drawings for the C3 and C11 couplers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320 From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 29 16:17:18 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:17:18 -0600 Subject: TU58 tape formatter (was Re: rebuilding DC100A cartridges?) In-Reply-To: References: <20121129143334.GC23218@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121129221718.GF23218@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (11/29/2012 at 08:04PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > What I do is this : > Cut an over-long piece roughly, making sure I haev enough to cut the > ragged ends off and still have the bit I want. > > Put the tubing on suitable rod as a mandrel Any material will do, wood, > steel, etc. > > Put it i nthe 3 jaw chucj of the lathe. Hold a knife against the side of > the toolpost and move the altter to get the blade where I want if over > the tubing. > > Tunr the lathe _by hand_. Don't even think of using the motor unless you > wanta knife blade stuck in you. Prest the blade agaisn the tubing to cut it. > > Move the toolpost to ge the lrnght of tubing I wnt. cut again > > Slide the bits off the mandrel and keep the one I want. > > Since you don't need the accuracy of the lathe, you might be able to rig > soemthign up usin a hand drill, a block of fwood to guide the knife > against, etc. Yes. Thanks Tony. That seems very workable and along with Allison's suggestion of just cutting it on the hub of the capstan being refurbished, I think I can get there. I could mount the salvaged hub to a drill bit, put that in a drill motor, and then turn this assy by hand while cutting. Thanks guys. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 16:23:09 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 14:23:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121129133805.S56260@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> <20121129133805.S56260@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > But, I've got a lot of miscellaneous and third party books on C, and maybe > a few Pascal books. Ok, thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 29 16:18:26 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 22:18:26 +0000 (WET) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) Message-ID: <01ON7KX8L9TU0000G2@beyondthepale.ie> Fred wrote: > > > > IEC power cord with mains plug 2 straight blades in a line, with > > > perpendicular ground blade "13A 250V" "Fused" > > Almsot certainly a UK (BS1363) mains plug. The 'blades;' should be quite > > thich rectanguar pins, with the earth pin larger in all 3 dimensions to > > the others. The fuse is a 1" long cartridge fuse either inside the plug > > 9if it's not moulded to the cable) or under in a holder on the pin face > > of the plug. > Yes > > Do you want them? > > If not, does ANYBODY want that kind of stuff? > (There is a metric buttload of stuff that I can't even get to until some > stuff starts leaving. (Y'know those puzzles with square pieces with > numbers on them, or different shaped rectangles, and one unoccupied > square? - I need to clear that "unoccupied" square!)) > I would prefer to not have to pay much postage nor dump fees to get rid of > it. > Much as I sympathise with the puzzle problem, I can't imagine that there would be many who are interested in these. In countries where BS1363 sockets are used, IEC power cords with BS1363 plugs on them just accumulate without anyone having to do anything. We use them here in Ireland and I've got a big box of those leads. (Anybody want some?) In other countries, they are not much use unless someone decides to fit out their workshop with BS1363 sockets. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From trebor78 at execpc.com Fri Nov 30 09:20:43 2012 From: trebor78 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:20:43 -0600 Subject: Looking for Disk Jockey 2D-B Bootable Floppy Message-ID: <50B8CECB.3060207@execpc.com> I am Looking for a Bootable 8" Disk Jockey 2D-B Floppy. Preferable a Single Sided One formated for 1024 Byte Sectors. I have copies of a Floppy but was unable to copy the System Tracks. I Need one that will let me rebuild those floppies Can anyone Help trebor 78 at execpc.com Drop spaces and replace at=@ Thanks Bob in Wisconsin From tpresence at hotmail.com Fri Nov 30 10:44:20 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:44:20 -0700 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <5092DC29.8010803@neurotica.com> References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, , , , <5092DC29.8010803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: After a bit of time away, I had time to allocate to finally attempt to resolve this issue, and apparently the problem was with one of the 16MB RAM cards. I have some other RAM cards, but the ribbon connector was in a slightly different place, so I am not sure its for the same era of machines (its a bit higher up on the PC Board... but it is QBUS. Right now its working as a grant card. Thanks, everyone, for the help with this. Kevin > Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:31:37 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? > > On 11/01/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > Are these cables standard 50 pin ribbon cables like those which would be used > > to connect up scsi drives internally? Does length matter? I suspect that maybe > > the cable is bad, but I don't have a replacement (the one in place is a 3 position > > cable that is quite short), and no tools to crimp a new cable of this type. I do > > have a few 5 position cables, but before I start trying random things, I am > > hoping to understand the cable more specifically. The cable appears to be > > straight through, but the connectors might "twist" connections. There could > > be some ground plane factor, right? > > They area ordinary ribbon cables with ordinary connectors. > Straight-through, no "twists". They don't have to be kept super-short, > but do keep them as short as possible. This is a memory bus, after all. > I don't know if there's a max length spec (DEC probably didn't envision > people putting random cables in there) but I'd try to keep the whole > thing to less than 6" or so. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 30 11:25:29 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:25:29 -0800 Subject: Looking for Disk Jockey 2D-B Bootable Floppy In-Reply-To: <50B8CECB.3060207@execpc.com> References: <50B8CECB.3060207@execpc.com> Message-ID: <50B8EC09.3000302@bitsavers.org> On 11/30/12 7:20 AM, Robert J. Stevens wrote: > I am Looking for a Bootable 8" Disk Jockey 2D-B Floppy. > look in http://bitsavers.org/bits/Morrow/decision/floppy/ I think most variants are there. From filipmaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 12:26:54 2012 From: filipmaj at gmail.com (Filip Maj) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:26:54 -0500 Subject: Selling a PDP-11/04 computer on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Filip Maj wrote: > Selling one currently on Ebay. Got another more complete one and do not > have the room for this. > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150957191763 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 30 13:20:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:20:24 -0500 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, , , , <5092DC29.8010803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50B906F8.6040802@neurotica.com> On 11/30/2012 11:44 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > After a bit of time away, I had time to allocate to finally attempt to resolve this issue, > and apparently the problem was with one of the 16MB RAM cards. I have some other > > RAM cards, but the ribbon connector was in a slightly different place, so I am not sure > its for the same era of machines (its a bit higher up on the PC Board... but it is QBUS. > Right now its working as a grant card. They should be in the same place if they're for a -II. The PMI RAM cards for the -III are not compatible (it's a much faster bus with more address bits) and they put the PMI connector in a different place to prevent confusion between the two. I'm glad to hear that you found the source of the problem. I have a lot of MicroVAX-II RAM; contact me privately if you end up needing some. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 12:50:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121129124611.T54758@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 29, 12 12:59:14 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Cords, possibly from a Hitachi? LCD projector: > > > (in unopened plastic bags) > > > DE15F to 4-pin+key mini-DIN labeled "ABD" > > Is 'ADB'? It would be the right connector for that. > > Absolutely correct. I think that I make more typos than anybody else > here. Err, not while I'm on the list you don't :-) > > > > DE15F to DE9F > > THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! I asusme it's the PC/AT serial port wiring. Althought i thought that RS232C actually specified the DB25 conenctor. As an aside, at the recent HPCC conference, I set a little puzzle, namely to figure out what a circuit was used for. I geve the schematic and pointed out (truthfully) that the input as a DB25 socket, that pins 1 and 7 were groudned and that it was a standard interface. Of coure everyone assumed it was RS232, and quickly got in a tangle. It was actually RS366 (the autodialer interface). > (therefore, I don't trust the [factory] labelling of anything of them) > If I put it on eBay, I'd better call it "DB15 to DB9" Given that there are 2 15 pin D conencotrs, that is hardly a useful (and of ocurse totlalyu inaccurate) description. > > > Also have an adapter DE9F to DA15M, with 6 switches on the side. Sounds liek a Mac monitor adaptor. The DIP swithches set the video mode IIRC. > > > > > IEC power cord with 2 round pin mains plug > > Maybe a German mains lead. The plug itself is almost round, with 2 round > > pins. There are earthing cotnacts on the sides of the plug body > > Yes > > > > IEC power cord with mains plug 2 straight blades in a line, with > > > perpendicular ground blade "13A 250V" "Fused" > > Almsot certainly a UK (BS1363) mains plug. The 'blades;' should be quite > > thich rectanguar pins, with the earth pin larger in all 3 dimensions to > > the others. The fuse is a 1" long cartridge fuse either inside the plug > > 9if it's not moulded to the cable) or under in a holder on the pin face > > of the plug. > Yes > > Do you want them? Alas not.I susepct Ihave even less sapce than you do. Moulded cables are not useful for modificaiton, the only use is if you have the evece they work with. As for the power cables, I have forgotten just how many IEC cables with UK 13A plugs I own, suffice it to say that they re not rare (it's also very easy to buy them here). The German one is not useufl, as I don;t have many German sockets. Actually, non-UK mains sockets are useful, for plugging things in which have other mains plugs that uou eitehr don't want to change, or more likely can't cange (perehaps it's a wall wart). So I have US (117V and 234V), German and various older UK sockets on extension leads here. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 30 16:17:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:17:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> > > Absolutely correct. I think that I make more typos than anybody else > > here. On Fri, 30 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, not while I'm on the list you don't :-) > > > > DE15F to DE9F > > THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! > I asusme it's the PC/AT serial port wiring. Althought i thought that > RS232C actually specified the DB25 conenctor. and I have NEVER seen a DE15 used for any kind of serial. Considering that these cables probably came from an LCD projector, it is PROBABLY a monitor adapter of some sort. Somebody clueless may have looked at the DE9 and automatically labelled it as "RS232" (as a misuse, meaning serial) > > (therefore, I don't trust the [factory] labelling of anything of them) > > If I put it on eBay, I'd better call it "DB15 to DB9" > Given that there are 2 15 pin D conencotrs, that is hardly a useful (and > of ocurse totlalyu inaccurate) description. exactly!> > > Also have an adapter DE9F to DA15M, with 6 switches on the side. ANOTHER typo! Meant to say DE15f to DA15M or, in eBay speak, "DB15 to DB15" :-( > Sounds liek a Mac monitor adaptor. The DIP swithches set the video mode IIRC. I assume so. > Moulded cables are not useful for modificaiton, the only use is if you > have the evece they work with. cutting up molded cables and splicing cable is sometimes easier than trying to work with Mini-DIN plugs! And these days, it is getting hard to find any non-molded mains plugs. As for the power cables, I have forgotten From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 30 16:24:12 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 23:24:12 +0100 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <5092DC29.8010803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121130232412.219c891212fb8b0f2880fa81@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:44:20 -0700 Kevin Reynolds wrote: > the problem was with one of the 16MB RAM cards Did you plug in more then one 16 MB card? The KA630 CPU board found in the MVII can address a maximum of only 16 MB RAM. No surprise that connecting several of them causes strange things to happen. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 16:55:48 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:55:48 -0800 Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Absolutely correct. I think that I make more typos than anybody else > > > here. > On Fri, 30 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Err, not while I'm on the list you don't :-) > > > > > > > DE15F to DE9F > > > THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! > > I asusme it's the PC/AT serial port wiring. Althought i thought that > > RS232C actually specified the DB25 conenctor. > > and I have NEVER seen a DE15 used for any kind of serial. > The GRiD Compass used a DE15 for its serial connector, IIRC (not sure if other early GRiD machines did). Certainly possible that a DE15->DE9 would be useful for such a machine... - Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 30 22:58:10 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 23:58:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201212010458.XAA28038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > and I have NEVER seen a DE15 used for any kind of serial. DDC doesn't count? Or you mean serial as the primary function? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctech at vax-11.org Wed Nov 28 17:23:33 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 16:23:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > Seagate 212 drive, with formed clear plastic top cover; probably a booth > demo for a tradeshow 2 heads (one inner, one outer on top of single > platter I remember something about that drive. It used two heads, one for the inner radious and one for the outer radius to improve the access time. Now days 10MB would fit on a single track with room to spare. I wonder if one of the museums would be interested in an artifact like that. Clint