From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 1 03:47:27 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 10:47:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com>, , <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Feb 2012, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> I have put two disk images on our ftp server. > > Is this a publically accessable server? > I'd be happy to add these to my Model-II system disk archive if I > can get copies. Sorry, it's our CS department's FTP server: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/... or computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/... Christian From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Mar 1 04:54:08 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wire-wrap pin-board (Augat-style) ebay item 150765774814 Message-ID: <1330599248.69134.YahooMailClassic@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's not mine, but it it looks too nice to scrap for gold. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150765774814 --Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 1 12:27:23 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 18:27:23 -0000 Subject: uVax II / III boards offered In-Reply-To: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> I have replied a couple of times to the email address n0body.h0me at inbox.com with regards to this and had no reply. I am not sure if I have been responding to the wrong address, but I am interested and would like to know if my emails have been received. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me > Sent: 27 February 2012 06:47 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: uVax II / III boards offered > > > I'm divesting myself of most of my q-bus stuff, starting with the uVax board > sets. > > M7169 - 4-plane video controller module > M7168 - 4-plane color bitmap module (x2) > M7622 - 16-Mbyte RAM for KA650 (MicroVAX III) (x2) > M7625 - MicroVAX III CPU (workstation license), 60nS M7606-EF Microvax II > CPU > M7609 - 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) (x2) > > I also have the cable for the video card, and a couple of those switch panels > for the CPU's > > I just need to unload this, make me an offer; would prefer to sell the lot. I > could also be bribed to ship this internationally; make me a good offer, and > maybe we can cut a deal. > > Shipping will be from STockton, CA 95212 (USA) > > ____________________________________________________________ > Publish your photos in seconds for FREE > TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Mar 1 12:42:27 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 10:42:27 -0800 Subject: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system Message-ID: On ebay, item 230754098992. The seller is somewhat clueless about what he has (it's an 80s machine, not 60s) and is probably missing a zero from his estimate of what the thing weighs, but otherwise it looks complete and in good condition save for a couple of rack filler panels that look like someone drove into them. From the photos it looks like two 1600BPI drives, a couple of 8" Fuji SMD drives with some sort of emulating controller and three IAC-16s or equivalent. No affiliation with the seller, save for the fact that I'd be bidding on the thing if I could figure out how to get it from VA to CA. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 13:04:01 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:04:01 -0600 Subject: uVax II / III boards offered In-Reply-To: <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob, I you can't get those boards, let me know. I have plenty, Paul On 3/1/12, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have replied a couple of times to the email address n0body.h0me at inbox.com > with regards to this and had no reply. I am not sure if I have been > responding to the wrong address, but I am interested and would like to know > if my emails have been received. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me >> Sent: 27 February 2012 06:47 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: uVax II / III boards offered >> >> >> I'm divesting myself of most of my q-bus stuff, starting with the uVax > board >> sets. >> >> M7169 - 4-plane video controller module >> M7168 - 4-plane color bitmap module (x2) >> M7622 - 16-Mbyte RAM for KA650 (MicroVAX III) (x2) >> M7625 - MicroVAX III CPU (workstation license), 60nS M7606-EF Microvax II >> CPU >> M7609 - 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) (x2) >> >> I also have the cable for the video card, and a couple of those switch > panels >> for the CPU's >> >> I just need to unload this, make me an offer; would prefer to sell the > lot. I >> could also be bribed to ship this internationally; make me a good offer, > and >> maybe we can cut a deal. >> >> Shipping will be from STockton, CA 95212 (USA) >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Publish your photos in seconds for FREE >> TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 >> > > > From sander.reiche at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 13:28:27 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:28:27 +0100 Subject: uVax II / III boards offered In-Reply-To: <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I replied as well, but there seems to be... n0b0dy h0me... re, Sander Reiche On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have replied a couple of times to the email address n0body.h0me at inbox.com > with regards to this and had no reply. I am not sure if I have been > responding to the wrong address, but I am interested and would like to know > if my emails have been received. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me >> Sent: 27 February 2012 06:47 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: uVax II / III boards offered >> >> >> I'm divesting myself of most of my q-bus stuff, starting with the uVax > board >> sets. >> >> M7169 - ?4-plane video controller module >> M7168 - ?4-plane color bitmap module (x2) >> M7622 - ?16-Mbyte RAM for KA650 (MicroVAX III) (x2) >> M7625 - ?MicroVAX III CPU (workstation license), 60nS M7606-EF Microvax II >> CPU >> M7609 - ?8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) (x2) >> >> I also have the cable for the video card, and a couple of those switch > panels >> for the CPU's >> >> I just need to unload this, make me an offer; would prefer to sell the > lot. ?I >> could also be bribed to ship this internationally; make me a good offer, > and >> maybe we can cut a deal. >> >> Shipping will be from STockton, CA 95212 (USA) >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Publish your photos in seconds for FREE >> TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 >> > > -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 1 14:16:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:16:14 -0500 Subject: Wire-wrap pin-board (Augat-style) ebay item 150765774814 In-Reply-To: <1330599248.69134.YahooMailClassic@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1330599248.69134.YahooMailClassic@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F4FD90E.3000200@neurotica.com> On 03/01/2012 05:54 AM, William Maddox wrote: > It's not mine, but it it looks too nice to scrap for gold. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150765774814 Oh now that is pretty. I have one very similar to that, an Augat, for Qbus. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 1 14:18:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:18:24 -0500 Subject: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> On 03/01/2012 01:42 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > On ebay, item 230754098992. The seller is somewhat clueless about > what he has (it's an 80s machine, not 60s) and is probably missing a > zero from his estimate of what the thing weighs, but otherwise it > looks complete and in good condition save for a couple of rack filler > panels that look like someone drove into them. From the photos it > looks like two 1600BPI drives, a couple of 8" Fuji SMD drives with > some sort of emulating controller and three IAC-16s or equivalent. > > No affiliation with the seller, save for the fact that I'd be bidding > on the thing if I could figure out how to get it from VA to CA. -- Wow! I'm going to try to grab that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 1 14:46:12 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:46:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: uVax II / III boards offered In-Reply-To: <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201203012046.PAA17908@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have replied a couple of times to the email address > n0body.h0me at inbox.com with regards to this and had no reply. I am > not sure if I have been responding to the wrong address, but I am > interested and would like to know if my emails have been received. I sent mail too and haven't heard back either. The list seems to impose its own Reply-To: header; I wonder if the sender put a nonworking address in the From: and something useful in the Reply-To: for some reason, and the latter got lost "thanks" to the list.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cb at kryoflux.com Thu Mar 1 15:12:58 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:12:58 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> > I will answer in brief. Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the (old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really don't feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people deliver good work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get paid because this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to spend money for things that make the product better.You also can spend the money to train programmers so they use latest techniques and don't do beginners faults. I don't speak for everyone involved, but: I scan artefacts with a commercial scanner software, I process images with Photoshop, and I use TotalCommander to organise files and put them up on the FTP. This does not mean the images scanned and archived are less preserved. I would not want to exchange a single tool. I enjoy using them every single day. From cb at kryoflux.com Thu Mar 1 15:15:39 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:15:39 +0100 Subject: Kryoflux (Was: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4FE6FB.4060807@kryoflux.com> Hi Fred! >> We don't have anything to hide. We do have eleven years of field >> experience in regard to preservation. > Even "post-millenium" newcomers are very welcome! > > Glad to have y'all involved. > > Thanks for the warm welcome. It's nice to see all the dinosaurs still around. I didn't count in e.g. my years at Cachet (X-Copy, Amiga) in the early 1990s as that was not preservation but banging bits from the source to the target. So if we/I still qualify as newcomers... fine with me. Enjoy! From sander.reiche at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 15:41:17 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:41:17 +0100 Subject: Kryoflux (Was: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4FE6FB.4060807@kryoflux.com> References: <4F4FE6FB.4060807@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > > Thanks for the warm welcome. It's nice to see all the dinosaurs still > around. I didn't count in e.g. my years at Cachet (X-Copy, Amiga) in the > early 1990s as that was not preservation but banging bits from the source to > the target. So if we/I still qualify as newcomers... fine with me. Enjoy! Pah, X-Copy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDtnQiZlSc) .... D-Copy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUT-gnwpLJ0) FTW! :) re, Sander From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Mar 1 16:13:00 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:00 -0800 Subject: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1 Mar 2012, at 12:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow! I'm going to try to grab that. Sweet! Looks like there's supporting media and some docs as well; should boot to perfectly serviceable AOS. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From paisley at erols.com Thu Mar 1 13:14:43 2012 From: paisley at erols.com (paisley at erols.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:14:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> I was able to get two H960 racks (Thanks Doc!) and what I am looking for now are the brackets that connect 2 racks together. Does any one have any of these? Or have a photo of what one looks like? Thanks. Todd Paisley From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Thu Mar 1 17:26:45 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:26:45 -0800 Subject: uVax II / III boards offered In-Reply-To: <201203012046.PAA17908@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <2efa573ad8d.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5D6D8D946F1.0000005Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> I apologize for creating disorder here-- tentatively, the boards have been claimed; the original person who expressed interest isn't answering my e-mails, and this caused things to stall a bit, so I have offered them to the next person. Sorry guys, didn't intend to be flakey. . . . Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: mouse at rodents-montreal.org > Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:46:12 -0500 (EST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: uVax II / III boards offered > >> I have replied a couple of times to the email address >> n0body.h0me at inbox.com with regards to this and had no reply. I am >> not sure if I have been responding to the wrong address, but I am >> interested and would like to know if my emails have been received. > > I sent mail too and haven't heard back either. The list seems to > impose its own Reply-To: header; I wonder if the sender put a > nonworking address in the From: and something useful in the Reply-To: > for some reason, and the latter got lost "thanks" to the list.... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Mar 1 18:34:19 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 21:34:19 -0300 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5B23141A-F90D-4F8A-B073-CB877238DC3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201203020037.q220bFt8030943@billy.ezwind.net> William Donzelli wrote on Wed, 29 Feb 2012 01:43:16 -0500 > > I don't have examples, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he > > was referring to special cases such as projection TVs or some-or-other > > studio equipment. Working in RCA he might have been seeing stuff most people > > wouldn't. > > I have a LOT of 1950s tech docs on RCA television equipment, and I > have never seen any hybrid mechanical systems mentioned in them. I asked my father for more details and he confirmed what several here guessed: he meant that they had lots of those old mechanical TV sets in the RCA lab (Marion, Indiana) when he arrived there in 1957/58. So this was in a kind of museum, not stuff that was being sold. When I tried to get him to explain how it would be possible to have a mechanical vertical part and an electronic horizontal part we came to the conclusion that the sets he was remembering were actually the fully mechanical ones with the traditional spiral of holes from before World War II. On a related subject, I have seen a few videos of modern recreations of mechanical TVs on Youtube and feel they are a bit misleading. They are being fed a signal created from a good video source, so the images we see are far better than what you would get from a mechanical camera. That is like showing off a SInclair ZX Spectrum hooked up to a SD card and playing a video (you can see that on Youtube too) - it gives you a wrong idea of what using the device was like when it was new. -- Jecel From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 1 19:49:53 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 17:49:53 -0800 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> On 3/1/2012 1:12 PM, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > >> I will answer in brief. > > Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the > (old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really > don't feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people > deliver good work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact > that people get paid because this can be a very good motivation. It > also enables you to spend money for things that make the product > better.You also can spend the money to train programmers so they use > latest techniques and don't do beginners faults. I don't speak for > everyone involved, but: I scan artefacts with a commercial scanner > software, I process images with Photoshop, and I use TotalCommander to > organise files and put them up on the FTP. This does not mean the > images scanned and archived are less preserved. I would not want to > exchange a single tool. I enjoy using them every single day. > > Not relevant to the archival media question. If I want to go out x # of years and work with what you are using a comparables, they certainly stand an excellent chance of being in the state of being useful (jpgs, pdfs, word files, (sorry word and MS are like cockroaches, they'll never go away). So to make a better case, I want a totally open and openly documented tool not to deny you your livelyhood, but to ensure that in x# of years if there are engineering questions about interfacing the archives and tools to either vintage equipment, or simulators I have all the goods totally documented and in my archive along with the images I produced as I archived the stuff. also many here on the list (Chuck) have great skills in copying old media, but I fear that all of the domain knowledge that he rightfully keeps to himself by doing the archival copies for himself will produce the data on archival media, and satisfy his customers, but will be lost out in the future when it could have been useful. The horrible example of the C/PM image archives that vanished when Don Maslin passed is not exactly the same problem, but is similar in that the library he was compiling was lost when he passed. I wish there were a good way to satisfy all of these, but I am mainly interested in archiving anything I come across, and being able to reproduce it in the future. And I like to collect things over which I have total control. I don't mind the acquisition cost in this equation, but it being closed would be a problem. i do have one of the Diskferret board sets, for this reason. And I'm one of the lame ones who has not had time to use it as yet. However I have confidence that it will provide what I want, not only for the floppys it was working with when I bought it, but with hard drives. I have several 14" SMD drives which may come into play, and perhaps in an ideal world some drums to digitize, and this is an ideal open tools to do so with. I doubt that Phil will be coming to my LGP30, but digitizing the drum's contents would not be out of the question. I would be able to do the engineering with him, hopefully should that happen in the future. Jim From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 22:36:01 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:36:01 -0600 Subject: uVax II / III boards offered In-Reply-To: <5D6D8D946F1.0000005Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <2efa573ad8d.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203012046.PAA17908@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5D6D8D946F1.0000005Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: I am going through my q-bus and micro-vax boards and have most CPU, memory, interface and comm boards. I'll try to put a list togother a list with cost next week, and am willing to ship overseas via USPS and FED-EX air. Also Lots of non-DEC- Dilog, etc Please contact me off list Finally unpacking a few more things!!!! Paul On 3/1/12, N0body H0me wrote: > I apologize for creating disorder here-- tentatively, > the boards have been claimed; the original person > who expressed interest isn't answering my e-mails, > and this caused things to stall a bit, so I have > offered them to the next person. > > Sorry guys, didn't intend to be flakey. . . . > > > Jeff > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:46:12 -0500 (EST) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: uVax II / III boards offered >> >>> I have replied a couple of times to the email address >>> n0body.h0me at inbox.com with regards to this and had no reply. I am >>> not sure if I have been responding to the wrong address, but I am >>> interested and would like to know if my emails have been received. >> >> I sent mail too and haven't heard back either. The list seems to >> impose its own Reply-To: header; I wonder if the sender put a >> nonworking address in the From: and something useful in the Reply-To: >> for some reason, and the latter got lost "thanks" to the list.... >> >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > ____________________________________________________________ > Publish your photos in seconds for FREE > TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 22:41:26 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:41:26 -0600 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: There are two bars (about 6 ft long) less than an inch wide and 2 or 3 inches deep. The front and rear are different. I think 4 or 8 set screws were used to hold everything together. You can bolt them together without the filler strips and it will still look pretty nice. Paul On 3/1/12, paisley at erols.com wrote: > > I was able to get two H960 racks (Thanks Doc!) and what I am looking for now > are the brackets that connect 2 racks together. Does any one have any of > these? Or have a photo of what one looks like? Thanks. > > Todd Paisley > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Mar 2 02:55:47 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:55:47 -0000 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: <0F24AE7F8CDA4B4CABC822F777FFB2CE@Edicons.local> H960 Racks are a perennial problem to get hold of. However DEC rack mounting OEM systems would go into non DEC supplied racks. Apart from DEC Racks usually being painted black I believe most of the Beige bits would bolt onto non DEC racks. Does anybody have any experience of making non DEC sourced racks look like DEC ones? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of paisley at erols.com Sent: 01 March 2012 19:15 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets I was able to get two H960 racks (Thanks Doc!) and what I am looking for now are the brackets that connect 2 racks together. Does any one have any of these? Or have a photo of what one looks like? Thanks. Todd Paisley From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 03:40:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 04:40:46 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables Message-ID: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also use a handful of short AUI cables. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sander.reiche at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 04:20:37 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:20:37 +0100 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: <0F24AE7F8CDA4B4CABC822F777FFB2CE@Edicons.local> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> <0F24AE7F8CDA4B4CABC822F777FFB2CE@Edicons.local> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > H960 Racks are a perennial problem to get hold of. However DEC rack mounting > OEM systems would go into non DEC supplied racks. Apart from DEC Racks > usually being painted black I believe most of the Beige bits would bolt onto > non DEC racks. > > Does anybody have any experience of making non DEC sourced racks look like > DEC ones? > I have yet to find non DEC racks that'll fit and work nicely with a H960. Everything I've tried, from early 2000s to current HP rack mounting kits to late 2000s to current EMC kits simply don't work/fit at all. re, Sander From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 2 05:04:19 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:04:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Reading the following, I have to make some comments: On Thu, 1 Mar 2012, jim s wrote: > i do have one of the Diskferret board sets, for this reason. And I'm one of > the lame ones who has not had time to use it as yet. However I have > confidence that it will provide what I want, not only for the floppys it was > working with when I bought it, but with hard drives. I have several 14" SMD > drives which may come into play, and perhaps in an ideal world some drums to > digitize, and this is an ideal open tools to do so with. I think the DiscFerret doesn't help with SMD drives as they have a somewhat intelligent interface and pure uncoded, i.e. NRZ, data. I have just built a "simple" interface for a PC on an ISA prototyping board (with wire-wrap!) because I have the need to get the data off from several SMD drives from an unknown machine with an unknown controller. Essentially you need a lot of RS422 drivers/receivers (everything on the A and B cable is differential!), some registers to control the bus and tag lines, and a means to shift the bits into a buffer. Per se, it's not very difficult as you have a nice read clock signal along the data signal on the bus. Just read in all bits from index to index, and analyse that bit stream in software. No need for a PLL or decoder whatsoever. > I doubt that Phil will be coming to my LGP30, but digitizing the drum's > contents would not be out of the question. I would be able to do the > engineering with him, hopefully should that happen in the future. The DiscFerret won't help with this drum either. Speaking of experience (having two working LGP30s), you don't really need to digitize the drum if the machine (or more exactly, the matrix drivers and read FFs) are working, just hook up your logic analyser or whatever to the read FF and select the desired track. Your read clock is the main clock (137 kHz for the European version). Since there's no index pulse you need to read the C register together with the two clock tracks S2*/S3 to get the number of the next sector. The word mark is the sign bit. ... But you really only need to do that if you absolutely can't get your LGP30 working. When we got our first LGP30, before the machine itself was operational, we had dumped the drum with a Dolch logic analyser and found a mostly empty drum with some code fragment somewhere in the middle. We used some simple TL084 opamps to digitize the signal and feed it into the pod. Many years later we discovered that this is what is left after running the LGP30 acceptance test. Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Mar 2 05:46:54 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 06:46:54 -0500 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets Message-ID: On 3/1/12, paisley at erols.com wrote: > > I was able to get two H960 racks (Thanks Doc!) and what I am looking for now > are the brackets that connect 2 racks together. Does any one have any of > these? Or have a photo of what one looks like? Thanks. If you pull off the side panels where you want to do the join (lift up and out), 1/4" bolts and nuts will join the racks together at 4 places. This lacks any beige fillers (which is I think maybe what you're asking for) but it makes two new side panels that maybe can be used elsewhere. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 2 09:57:52 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 07:57:52 -0800 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> On 3/2/12 3:04 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > The DiscFerret won't help with this drum either. Speaking of experience (having two working LGP30s), you don't really need to digitize the drum if the machine (or more exactly, the matrix drivers and > read FFs) are working, just hook up your logic analyser or whatever to the read FF and select the desired track. Your read clock is the main clock (137 kHz for the European version). Since there's no > index pulse you need to read the C register together with the two clock tracks S2*/S3 to get the number of the next sector. The word mark is the sign bit. ... But you really only need to do that if > you absolutely can't get your LGP30 working. > > When we got our first LGP30, before the machine itself was operational, we had dumped the drum with a Dolch logic analyser and found a mostly empty drum with some code fragment somewhere in the > middle. We used some simple TL084 opamps to digitize the signal and feed it into the pod. > Many years later we discovered that this is what is left after running the LGP30 acceptance test. > Providing detailed information on this would be helpful in the future if someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum. I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably be checked out if a replacement for the drum could be put together. This information really should be collected for any machine where the timing information that drives the computer is on rotating media (LGP-30, G-15, IBM 650, Recomp-II, D17B) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Mar 2 10:00:22 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:00:22 +0100 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: I have a few of those filler strips ... The dimension that Paul gives is correct. If you look at the end of such a filler strip, it has the shape of a "+", but one side is a bit longer (+--). They are black, either made of plastic (the ones I have) or black painted metal (seen just once!). I guess the difference between the front filler and rear filler strip is the length a small part of one side of the "+" is cut out. The short end is on the outside, the longer end "points" toward the middle of the rack. Maybe I will use the filler strips in the future. The problem with racks bolted together is that they become a PITA to roll if you need to be at the rear side. My systems all stand against a wall. If I ever get a lot of room (...) the systems can stand free in the open space. Then it sure is nice to have those filler strips installed. Installation is easy: just two bolts at each end (top & bottom) of the filler strip. Sorry, never took pictures of them. Given the size (approx 1.9 m long) they are not easy to ship either. - Henk. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Anderson" Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:41 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets > There are two bars (about 6 ft long) less than an inch wide and 2 or 3 > inches deep. > The front and rear are different. I think 4 or 8 set screws were used > to hold everything together. You can bolt them together without the > filler strips and it will still look pretty nice. > > Paul > > On 3/1/12, paisley at erols.com wrote: >> >> I was able to get two H960 racks (Thanks Doc!) and what I am looking for >> now >> are the brackets that connect 2 racks together. Does any one have any of >> these? Or have a photo of what one looks like? Thanks. >> >> Todd Paisley From useddec at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 10:04:58 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:04:58 -0600 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I have a lot of loose power supplies and cables. Do you happen to remember the part numbers? Paul On 3/2/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also > use a handful of short AUI cables. > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 2 10:16:20 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:16:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203021616.LAA10303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I could also use a handful of short AUI cables. Depending on what "short" means here, you may be able to make your own with a pair of DA15s and some 15-pin ribbon cable. It doesn't have the right transmission-line characteristics, but for sufficiently short cables that doesn't matter in practice. (I once experimented; I had to get up to something like three metres before I started getting a significant level of errors.) It seems to be difficult, at least for me, to find out just sort sort of signals, in the electrical sense, run over AUI. But at 10Mb, bits are roughly 50 feet long (at these frequencies, signals in copper travel largely by skin effect at somewhere between .4 and .8 lightspeed, depending on the details of the cable), so it's no surprise that you can get away with a lot at cable lengths of only a foot or so. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 2 10:43:31 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:43:31 +0100 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: <75e929723c83e839c4b6540cb5f354c6.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have put up 3 pics of them, these can be found at http://www.groenenberg.net/download/jm/ They are more likely to be about 175cm than 190cm, but that's a small detail. I happen to have 8 of them, 5 plastic ones and 3 metal ones. Ed > I have a few of those filler strips ... > The dimension that Paul gives is correct. > If you look at the end of such a filler strip, it has the shape of a "+", > but one side is a bit longer (+--). They are black, either made of plastic > (the ones I have) or black painted metal (seen just once!). > I guess the difference between the front filler and rear filler strip > is the length a small part of one side of the "+" is cut out. The short > end > is on the outside, the longer end "points" toward the middle of the rack. > > Maybe I will use the filler strips in the future. The problem with racks > bolted together is that they become a PITA to roll if you need to be > at the rear side. My systems all stand against a wall. If I ever get a > lot of room (...) the systems can stand free in the open space. Then > it sure is nice to have those filler strips installed. > Installation is easy: just two bolts at each end (top & bottom) of the > filler strip. > > Sorry, never took pictures of them. > Given the size (approx 1.9 m long) they are not easy to ship either. > > - Henk. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Paul Anderson" > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:41 AM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets > >> There are two bars (about 6 ft long) less than an inch wide and 2 or 3 >> inches deep. >> The front and rear are different. I think 4 or 8 set screws were used >> to hold everything together. You can bolt them together without the >> filler strips and it will still look pretty nice. >> >> Paul >> >> On 3/1/12, paisley at erols.com wrote: >>> >>> I was able to get two H960 racks (Thanks Doc!) and what I am looking >>> for >>> now >>> are the brackets that connect 2 racks together. Does any one have any >>> of >>> these? Or have a photo of what one looks like? Thanks. >>> >>> Todd Paisley > > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 2 12:26:23 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 18:26:23 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F5110CF.4060308@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/12 11:04, Christian Corti wrote: > I think the DiscFerret doesn't help with SMD drives as they have a > somewhat intelligent interface and pure uncoded, i.e. NRZ, data. That's not strictly accurate. The DiscFerret has a 50MHz four-line High Speed I/O interface. What you could do is use two lines to talk to an I/O expander (read: microcontroller) which issues commands to the drive, and use the other two for high-speed data and clock from the RS422 receivers. You'd have to modify the microcode to make it work, but that's exactly why I used an FPGA: it'll do anything you ask of it, depending on how the logic array is programmed. If you get a read-clock and a read-data line, use RDCLK to shift stuff into a high speed shift register, then every eight clocks store it in a FIFO. On the other side, use the same memory interface logic the DiscFerret stock firmware uses (the MWR fifo and address counter). When you get an index pulse, store the contents of the SR and latch the number of bits stored into a holding register. Most of the ACQCON logic would be common. > When we got our first LGP30, before the machine itself was operational, > we had dumped the drum with a Dolch logic analyser and found a mostly The LGP30.. I'm not 100% certain I understand the drive interface so I'll refrain from commenting. Even so, I don't have access to an LGP, so testing would be difficult at best. I've no doubt that you could read it into a DiscFerret, again with a microcode change and a buffer board, but there's no reason I'm aware of which would make it impossible. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 2 12:41:59 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:41:59 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Emulators? Message-ID: Do any IBM RS/6000 emulators exist that are capable of something around AIX v4.x? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Mar 2 13:00:59 2012 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 14:00:59 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Emulators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5118EB.9080304@indiana.edu> It seems like someone works towards it on qemu now and then, but its never actually worked to my knowledge. On 03/02/2012 01:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do any IBM RS/6000 emulators exist that are capable of something > around AIX v4.x? > > Zane > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 2 14:10:07 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:10:07 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F5110CF.4060308@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> <4F5110CF.4060308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F51291F.90108@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/12 18:26, Philip Pemberton wrote: > That's not strictly accurate. The DiscFerret has a 50MHz four-line High > Speed I/O interface. OK, I hammed this. The bus buffer / level translator for the HSIO can actually go as far as 100 megabits per second (min pulse width of 10ns). The guaranteed specification for the DiscFerret is a 50Mbps signal. The chip in question is the TI TXB0104. Datasheet SCES650E, page six, "Timing Requirements, Vcc_A = 3.3V". It's also worth reading "Switching characteristics, Vcc_A=3.3V, Vcc_B=5V" on page eight of the same datasheet. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Mar 2 14:46:12 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:46:12 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61C75320-CA40-4592-A110-7664B1E284F8@kryoflux.com> Hi Jim, > Not relevant to the archival media question. If I want to go out x # of > years and work with what you are using a comparables, they certainly > stand an excellent chance of being in the state of being useful (jpgs, > pdfs, word files, (sorry word and MS are like cockroaches, they'll > never go away). This is not about the tools, the formats matter. You need to have well defined formats that are fully documented and open to make sure you can extract the data in the future. I don't know if I'll be using Photoshop in a decade, it matters if I can still open my JPEGs (problematic if you look at the reduction involved) or TIFFs or WAVs or FLACs. It does not matter if you like MS or don't like them. The word format itself is documented, so as long as this documentation is preserved, all is fine. That's why the data we preserve is in containers that have proven to be suitable for over a decade now, they are documented and / or available with source, so people can see how the encoding works. Chris From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Mar 2 14:52:28 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:52:28 +0100 Subject: Kryoflux (Was: Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BCE7385-6D4C-4024-9EED-8A02FDE562DB@kryoflux.com> Hey Sander, > Pah, X-Copy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDtnQiZlSc) .... D-Copy > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUT-gnwpLJ0) FTW! :) Yes, there were many of clones. But I think it's fair to say that many of them just copied the feature set of White Lightning and Fast Lightning which later became X-Copy. The beast of the package was always Cyclone, which with the help of the hardware adapter shifted the read line to the write line. The problem was the missing precomping and refreshing of bit cells, but this was the best you could get back in the day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2T9qpE6Jhw The inventor of Cyclone, Rich Aplin, actually invented KryoFlux in 2008, about 20 years after the original was made for the Amiga. :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOiWGj3A6Eg Enjoy. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 15:06:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:06:45 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <201203021616.LAA10303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> <201203021616.LAA10303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F513665.1030201@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 11:16 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I could also use a handful of short AUI cables. > > Depending on what "short" means here, you may be able to make your own > with a pair of DA15s and some 15-pin ribbon cable. It doesn't have the > right transmission-line characteristics, but for sufficiently short > cables that doesn't matter in practice. (I once experimented; I had to > get up to something like three metres before I started getting a > significant level of errors.) > > It seems to be difficult, at least for me, to find out just sort sort > of signals, in the electrical sense, run over AUI. But at 10Mb, bits > are roughly 50 feet long (at these frequencies, signals in copper > travel largely by skin effect at somewhere between .4 and .8 > lightspeed, depending on the details of the cable), so it's no surprise > that you can get away with a lot at cable lengths of only a foot or so. Yes, I've done that trick in a pinch. I'm looking to avoid having to order connectors and take the time (even the 5mins) to make cables though, as I'm in a really busy time right now and just want to get a few things on the network. One thing I want short ones for is to "dangle" a 10baseT transcievers from the front AUI connector on a BA213; for that I only need 2-3 inches. When I plug transceivers directly into those AUI ports, they protrude such that I can't close the doors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 15:08:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:08:11 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5136BB.4040507@neurotica.com> Not offhand, but I can probably find out, at least for the BA123 power supply. AUI cables, though...they're very generic, made by hundreds of manufacturers. I used to have dozens of them in a box but I can't seem to find them. -Dave On 03/02/2012 11:04 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a lot of loose power supplies and cables. Do you happen to > remember the part numbers? > > Paul > > On 3/2/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also >> use a handful of short AUI cables. >> >> Thanks, >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 15:10:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:10:55 -0500 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F51375F.1060704@neurotica.com> On 02/29/2012 08:19 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7197/6929974463_78f10207a3_b.jpg Great setup! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 2 15:26:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:26:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <201203021616.LAA10303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 2, 12 11:16:20 am Message-ID: > > > I could also use a handful of short AUI cables. > > Depending on what "short" means here, you may be able to make your own > with a pair of DA15s and some 15-pin ribbon cable. It doesn't have the > right transmission-line characteristics, but for sufficiently short > cables that doesn't matter in practice. (I once experimented; I had to > get up to something like three metres before I started getting a > significant level of errors.) I have certainly doen this with no problems with short (1 foot or less) cables to link a small transceriver to the socket on a distribution panel. The correct cable is not easy to get, at least not by the metre. Last time I needed soem I fond that it was generally only possible to get a large drunm of it costing several hundred pounds :-(. > > It seems to be difficult, at least for me, to find out just sort sort > of signals, in the electrical sense, run over AUI. But at 10Mb, bits OK, ther are 4 pairs in the cable. 3 of them are digital signals, the last is the power to the trnaceiver. In the proper calbe, the power pair is actually thicker wire than the other 3 pairs. The power pair is 12V. The logic signals are differnetial ECL IIRC. I can certianly check the exact detials, I have schemaitcs of ethernet interfaces nad transceives built from simple ICs. Acutally, looking at osmething like the PERQ scheamtics (EIO or OIO board) or the DEUNA printset, both, I think, on bitsavers, might help. FWIW, the cabl from the DEUNA (or wahtever board) to the bulkhead panel and the simialr cable i nthe PERQ 2 from the header on the backplane to the DA15 on the cabinet carry the ethernet signals, (there's no signal circuitry at the bulkhead/cabinet end in either case) and seem to be jsut plain IDC ribbon cable. So it's not suprising that you can use this for short traceiver drop cables. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 2 14:50:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:50:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 1, 12 10:12:58 pm Message-ID: My reply is somewhat academic in that I am unable to use either device at the moment. However, if I was going to buy one, I know which one I'd choose. > > I will answer in brief. > > Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the > (old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really don't It's partly that, but actually I think there's more to it. Firstly, I think it is a very bad idea to archive someing in a format which is not fully docuemtned. The fact that there's somehign around _now_ that can read it does not mean there will be soemthing aroudn in 50 years time that can read it. At least if you know the archive format then you have a chance of creatign somethign to make sense of it. Seocndly, these disk readers are, or at least should be, very verstile devices. I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is available, so if you want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other type of disk then you can do so. And thirdly, there;'s the question of support. I've had _much_ better support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from commerical software companies. This may be becuase I am often talkign to the guy who wrote hte code in the former case. It may be becuase they genuinely care. It may be becuase they don't simply say 'That information is proprietory'. Nto that I need such support very often, if I have the source code, schematics, etc, then I'll probably fix it myself (and tell the author the problem I had, the fix, and so on). > feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people deliver good > work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get > paid because this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to > spend money for things that make the product better.You also can spend > the money to train programmers so they use latest techniques and don't I think that's one of the msot insulting things against all the excellent free software uthors that I have ever read. Are youy seriosuly claiming that a program like gcc is no good becuase it's free and that the programmers who wrote it are clueless and not motivated? [No, gcc is not perfect. But it's better than several commercial C compilers I've been forced to use]. Quite simply if that's your attidude I do not wish to do business with you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 2 14:56:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:56:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <201203020037.q220bFt8030943@billy.ezwind.net> from "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." at Mar 1, 12 09:34:19 pm Message-ID: > > William Donzelli wrote on Wed, 29 Feb 2012 01:43:16 -0500 > > > I don't have examples, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he > > > was referring to special cases such as projection TVs or some-or-other > > > studio equipment. Working in RCA he might have been seeing stuff most people > > > wouldn't. > > > > I have a LOT of 1950s tech docs on RCA television equipment, and I > > have never seen any hybrid mechanical systems mentioned in them. > > I asked my father for more details and he confirmed what several here > guessed: he meant that they had lots of those old mechanical TV sets in > the RCA lab (Marion, Indiana) when he arrived there in 1957/58. So this > was in a kind of museum, not stuff that was being sold. Ah, that makes a lot of sense > > When I tried to get him to explain how it would be possible to have a > mechanical vertical part and an electronic horizontal part we came to > the conclusion that the sets he was remembering were actually the fully > mechanical ones with the traditional spiral of holes from before World > War II. There were single-axis CRTs made for speical purposes, there's one in that Tektronix printer used with their storage-tube displays. Inm that device the other axis is provbided by moving the paper pwas the end of the CRT. You could make a TV with such a CRT and a rotating mnirror drum to give the other scan axis (prsumably the slower one). Whether this was ever done I don't know, I've not heard of it but then vintage TV is nto my speciality. > > On a related subject, I have seen a few videos of modern recreations of > mechanical TVs on Youtube and feel they are a bit misleading. They are > being fed a signal created from a good video source, so the images we > see are far better than what you would get from a mechanical camera. > That is like showing off a SInclair ZX Spectrum hooked up to a SD card > and playing a video (you can see that on Youtube too) - it gives you a > wrong idea of what using the device was like when it was new. Indeed. Which is why (to get this on-topic) I think it's important to preserve as much of a vintage computer system as you can, not just the processor. By all means inteface a mdoern storage dervive to it for day-to-day use. And hook up a mdoern printor or an interfave to a PC that grabs the data intended to go to the pritner rather than running a clatterign mechanical thing all the time. But keep the old cassette tape unit, the thermal pritner tht fades if you looks at it wrong, the clattering ASR33, etc jsut so you can rememebr (and demonstrate) what the system was really like to use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 2 15:42:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:42:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F513665.1030201@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 2, 12 04:06:45 pm Message-ID: > Yes, I've done that trick in a pinch. I'm looking to avoid having to > order connectors and take the time (even the 5mins) to make cables > though, as I'm in a really busy time right now and just want to get a > few things on the network. It's probably taken you longer to send these messages than it would have taken to crimp an IDC DA15 onto each end of a bit of cable.... And I suspect the delivery time for such connectors from a reputable supplier (Farnell, Digikey, etc) would be no longer than having a cable sent to you. > > One thing I want short ones for is to "dangle" a 10baseT transcievers > from the front AUI connector on a BA213; for that I only need 2-3 > inches. When I plug transceivers directly into those AUI ports, they > protrude such that I can't close the doors. I would guess IDC ribbon ones wooud be great for this. They will foild nicely, and the sonenctors are side-entry for the cable. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 2 15:54:51 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 22:54:51 +0100 Subject: Available : Fluke 9100A and 9105A + pod's keyboard etc.. Message-ID: <003f01ccf8bf$1bbbb470$53331d50$@xs4all.nl> I have available a Fluke 9100A and a Fluke 9105A with lots of extra's Pods deep memory probe keyboard etc.. The 9100A has the newest firmware and a 'new' HD. The total has to be shipped in two or three boxes or picked up. I'm located in the Netherlands, -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 16:03:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:03:47 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5143C3.5060908@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 04:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, I've done that trick in a pinch. I'm looking to avoid having to >> order connectors and take the time (even the 5mins) to make cables >> though, as I'm in a really busy time right now and just want to get a >> few things on the network. > > It's probably taken you longer to send these messages than it would have > taken to crimp an IDC DA15 onto each end of a bit of cable.... And I > suspect the delivery time for such connectors from a reputable supplier > (Farnell, Digikey, etc) would be no longer than having a cable sent to you. Sure, but those connectors aren't cheap, and people are throwing AUI cables in the trash left and right. >> One thing I want short ones for is to "dangle" a 10baseT transcievers >> from the front AUI connector on a BA213; for that I only need 2-3 >> inches. When I plug transceivers directly into those AUI ports, they >> protrude such that I can't close the doors. > > I would guess IDC ribbon ones wooud be great for this. They will foild > nicely, and the sonenctors are side-entry for the cable. Yes, I've done that before and it works great. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 16:18:12 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:18:12 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Providing detailed information on this would be helpful in the future if > someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum. > > I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably be checked out if a > replacement for the drum could be put together. I thought the timing and track info on the drum was documented in the tech manuals? At least for the G-15. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 2 16:33:07 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:33:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is available, so if you > want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other > type of disk then you can do so. Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor requires you to use to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc). > And thirdly, there;'s the question of support. I've had _much_ better > support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from > commerical software companies. Me too - and that includes working at places with serious (expen$ive) software support contracts. I'm sure good vendor support does exist, evenin the commercial world, but it sure does seem to be a lot thinner on the ground in the commercial software world than in the gratuit-&-libre software world. >> What I know is that people deliver good work when they are >> motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get paid because >> this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to spend >> money for things that make the product better. You also can spend >> the money to train programmers [...] > I think that's one of the msot insulting things against all the > excellent free software uthors that I have ever read. I think much of the insult is in your own perception, tony. I too see no evil inhering in using money as a motivator. (Based on the resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively poor one in many cases, but that doesn't make it evil.) > Are youy seriosuly claiming that a program like gcc is no good > becuase it's free and that the programmers who wrote it are clueless > and not motivated? No, I don't think cb was claiming that. Rather, I think cb was claiming that paying programmers does not make a payer evil, nor the resulting code bad. I agree with both parts of that; while I see positive correlations in each case, I think the correlations are not the result of direct causality, but rather that all the relevant things correlate with basic philosophical and societal stances. Furthermore, you appear to be confusing "code written for pay" and "closed-source code". There are people paid to write open-source software. (I've even been one of them, sometimes.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 16:35:23 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:35:23 -0800 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F5143C3.5060908@neurotica.com> References: <4F5143C3.5060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Here's an interesting connector. I wonder if this would clear any other bulkhead connectors in the area of the AUI connector and be low enough profile to allow the BA213 door to be closed. http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=24892 Low Profile Right Angle Adapter, DB15 Male / Female From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 17:07:12 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:07:12 -0800 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: You could try here http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10221&cs_id=1022101&p_id=920&seq=1&format=2 chris On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also use a > handful of short AUI cables. > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 2 17:15:57 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 Emulators? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Mar 2, 12 10:41:59 am" Message-ID: <201203022315.q22NFvgd12058768@floodgap.com> > Do any IBM RS/6000 emulators exist that are capable of something > around AIX v4.x? No. But I'd love one. Right now if I need AIX 4 specifically, I just fire up the Apple Network Server. However, AIX has wonderful backwards compatibility. Until I got new AIX 6 media, my POWER6 had a broken bos.rte.libm and I just copied the math library from the ANS to build things in the interim. It worked perfectly except for 64-bit math, which I glommed on from glibc. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- People are weird. -- Law & Order SVU --------------------------------------- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 2 18:06:00 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 00:06:00 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> On 02/03/12 22:33, Mouse wrote: > Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor requires you to use > to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on > your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its > license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use > expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc). That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from Altera's FTP site. Current versions are borderline garbage (SignalTap is utterly broken). 10.0 is the last one which properly works, and only on XP; I don't think SignalTap debugging has ever worked on the Linux version. That and Altera are better at keeping their parts in the supply chain. Too many times I've sent out RFQs for Xilinx parts during pre-qual, only to be told "Oh, it'll take N weeks for us to get you some of those." Usually N is around 20... Altera stuff I can get off the shelf from Farnell. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 18:15:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:15:51 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> References: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F5162B7.8050807@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 07:06 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 02/03/12 22:33, Mouse wrote: >> Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor requires you to use >> to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on >> your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its >> license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use >> expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc). > > That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web > Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from > Altera's FTP site. Huh? Same with Xilinx WebPack. Does it not support devices large enough for the project? (it runs GREAT under Linux nowadays) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 18:17:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:17:12 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F516308.90209@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 06:07 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > You could try here > > http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10221&cs_id=1022101&p_id=920&seq=1&format=2 Thanks! Sadly they are back-ordered, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 18:17:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:17:31 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <4F5143C3.5060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F51631B.9080704@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 05:35 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Here's an interesting connector. I wonder if this would clear any > other bulkhead connectors in the area of the AUI connector and be low > enough profile to allow the BA213 door to be closed. > > http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=24892 > Low Profile Right Angle Adapter, DB15 Male / Female That might just work! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 2 18:29:40 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:29:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F516308.90209@neurotica.com> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> <4F516308.90209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/02/2012 06:07 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: >> You could try here >> >> http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10221&cs_id=1022101&p_id=920&seq=1&format=2 > > Thanks! Sadly they are back-ordered, though. These are 6' long, but the price is right: http://www.sfcable.com/DB20-06.html?c=DB15-cables I've had good service from these folks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 19:20:58 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:20:58 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: <4F51375F.1060704@neurotica.com> References: <4F51375F.1060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: thanks now i just gotta finish cleaning them up and testing them that will have to wait though as i am at camp on my work shift On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/29/2012 08:19 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/**7197/6929974463_78f10207a3_b.**jpg >> > > Great setup! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 19:25:20 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:25:20 -0600 Subject: gluing '60s plastics Message-ID: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> I'm not sure how much variety there was in the plastics available in the late '50s / early '60s, but I've got a plastic part here from that era[1] which needs sticking back together - is there any particular type of glue that I should be wary of? I just have memories of those plastic model airplane kits way back, where certain types of glue would dissolve the plastic, and I don't want to have that happen on an unobtanium part... It's probably one of those things where there's no way of knowing - but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask, and it's the sort of thing where if there is a right answer, I expect that someone on this list will know it :-) [1] OT; actually the platen knob from an old Smith-Corona typewriter. cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 2 19:46:38 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 01:46:38 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F5162B7.8050807@neurotica.com> References: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> <4F5162B7.8050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5177FE.7080306@philpem.me.uk> On 03/03/12 00:15, Dave McGuire wrote: >> That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web >> Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from >> Altera's FTP site. > > Huh? Same with Xilinx WebPack. Does it not support devices large > enough for the project? (it runs GREAT under Linux nowadays) Current versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory serves. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 2 20:26:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 18:26:56 -0800 Subject: gluing '60s plastics In-Reply-To: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> References: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F5110F0.16487.1FD09A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Mar 2012 at 19:25, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's probably one of those things where there's no way of knowing - > but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask, and it's the sort of thing where > if there is a right answer, I expect that someone on this list will > know it :-) > > [1] OT; actually the platen knob from an old Smith-Corona typewriter. You might want to give a try to one of the epoxies made for plastic bonding, such as Loctite 1363118 Epoxy Plastic Bonder. It claims to bond even the tough plastics, such as nylon. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Mar 2 21:25:54 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:25:54 -0500 Subject: VCF East 8.0 update Message-ID: <4F518F42.2040104@snarc.net> Cctalk'rs, Here's a big update about all the things happening with the Vintage Computer Festival East 8.0, May 5-6, at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. So far we're up to three "celebrity" lectures: Dr. Thomas Kurtz, who co-invented BASIC; Dan Kottke, of early Apple fame; and Bil Herd, of Commodore 8-bit fame. There's also a lecture by Dr. Kent Lundford, who'll teach us the history of analog computing, and there are two more still to be announced. This year we have ** SEVEN ** technical workshops: chiptunes music, software restoration, intro to minicomputer care/feeding, intro to Commodore 8-bit maintenance, into to Apple II maintenance, intro to S-100 zen/innerworkings, and Build a Vector Graphics Kit (the latter is a separate ticket.) So far there are 14 exhibits. We expect around 25 total. There will be a book sale, consignment, food, museum tours, prizes, vendors, etc. In addition, for the first time, we're having a few company sponsors (beyond the usual ones: MARCH, VintageTech, InfoAge Science Center.) The new sponsors are: - Eli's Software Encyclopedia - sponsoring our t-shirts - Western Design Center - that is MOS 6502 co-creator Bill Mensch's company - they're donating 20 autographed chips, which we'll sell for a modest price - Trenton Computer Festival - distributing VCF East fliers to all of their attendees - Vintage Computer Forum (can I say that on cctalk?) - running banner ad for us Bottom line, this is going to be one of the best VCF East shows ever. You'd all be fools to miss it. :) Tickets, as always, are sold at the door for just $10/day, $15/weekend, and free for kids. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 2 21:32:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:32:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: gluing '60s plastics In-Reply-To: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> References: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120302193211.B83534@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > [1] OT; actually the platen knob from an old Smith-Corona typewriter. Bakelite? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 21:55:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:55:38 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F5177FE.7080306@philpem.me.uk> References: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> <4F5162B7.8050807@neurotica.com> <4F5177FE.7080306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F51963A.2080408@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 08:46 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 03/03/12 00:15, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web >>> Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from >>> Altera's FTP site. >> >> Huh? Same with Xilinx WebPack. Does it not support devices large >> enough for the project? (it runs GREAT under Linux nowadays) > > Current versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory serves. Well yes, you need a license code, but they're free and take five minutes. I mean, sure, I wish it didn't need one, but it's not like the old days of overpriced, poorly-supported-for-pay software with dongles and crap like that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 2 22:14:31 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 21:14:31 -0700 Subject: VCF East 8.0 update In-Reply-To: <4F518F42.2040104@snarc.net> References: <4F518F42.2040104@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F519AA7.2000801@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/2/2012 8:25 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Cctalk'rs, > > Here's a big update about all the things happening with the Vintage > Computer Festival East 8.0, May 5-6, at the InfoAge Science Center in > Wall, New Jersey. > > So far we're up to three "celebrity" lectures: Dr. Thomas Kurtz, who > co-invented BASIC; Dan Kottke, of early Apple fame; and Bil Herd, of > Commodore 8-bit fame. There's also a lecture by Dr. Kent Lundford, > who'll teach us the history of analog computing, and there are two more > still to be announced. > > This year we have ** SEVEN ** technical workshops: chiptunes music, > software restoration, intro to minicomputer care/feeding, intro to > Commodore 8-bit maintenance, into to Apple II maintenance, intro to > S-100 zen/innerworkings, and Build a Vector Graphics Kit (the latter is > a separate ticket.) > > So far there are 14 exhibits. We expect around 25 total. > > There will be a book sale, consignment, food, museum tours, prizes, > vendors, etc. > > In addition, for the first time, we're having a few company sponsors > (beyond the usual ones: MARCH, VintageTech, InfoAge Science Center.) The > new sponsors are: > - Eli's Software Encyclopedia - sponsoring our t-shirts > - Western Design Center - that is MOS 6502 co-creator Bill Mensch's > company - they're donating 20 autographed chips, which we'll sell for a > modest price > - Trenton Computer Festival - distributing VCF East fliers to all of > their attendees > - Vintage Computer Forum (can I say that on cctalk?) - running banner ad > for us > > Bottom line, this is going to be one of the best VCF East shows ever. > You'd all be fools to miss it. :) > > Tickets, as always, are sold at the door for just $10/day, $15/weekend, > and free for kids. Never make any money, most of us still think we're kids. :) Good luck with VCF 8. Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 2 22:30:20 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:30:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F51963A.2080408@neurotica.com> References: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> <4F5162B7.8050807@neurotica.com> <4F5177FE.7080306@philpem.me.uk> <4F51963A.2080408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203030430.XAA20187@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Current versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory >> serves. > Well yes, you need a license code, but they're free and take five > minutes. ...today. In a decade or two, once the vendor has imploded and nobody knows even who all the successors-in-interest are, much less which one owns the relevant rights, it becomes useless to anyone who doesn't happen to already have a magic code. Except, of course, for people willing to break the copy-protect or share an existing license code (if anyone with a technically valid one can then be found). That sort of thing is why I raised the point of how future-proof the relevant software when people started talking about using FPGAs in devices being contemplated for archiving purposes. > I mean, sure, I wish it didn't need one, but it's not like the old > days of overpriced, poorly-supported-for-pay software with dongles > and crap like that. Actually, it is rather like that, except that the `dongle' is information instead of hardware. Technically easier to copy, but illegal to do so in most jurisdictions, criminal in at least one important one. (Unless of course legislators stop hiding their heads in the sand and pretending the world hasn't changed, which I consider highly unlikely.) Mouse From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 2 22:36:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:36:30 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <201203030430.XAA20187@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F516068.9070208@philpem.me.uk> <4F5162B7.8050807@neurotica.com> <4F5177FE.7080306@philpem.me.uk> <4F51963A.2080408@neurotica.com> <201203030430.XAA20187@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F519FCE.1030306@neurotica.com> On 03/02/2012 11:30 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Current versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory >>> serves. >> Well yes, you need a license code, but they're free and take five >> minutes. > > ...today. In a decade or two, once the vendor has imploded and nobody > knows even who all the successors-in-interest are, much less which one > owns the relevant rights, it becomes useless to anyone who doesn't > happen to already have a magic code. Sure, but the licenses don't expire. This obviously isn't ideal (I want the friggin' source code!), but it's not an obstacle worth skipping a project over. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Mar 3 00:31:07 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:31:07 -0000 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <201203021616.LAA10303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 2, 12 11:16:20 am Message-ID: Four pairs - sounds like standard UTP LAN cable Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ????? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 02 March 2012 21:27 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: BA123 power supply, AUI cables > > > I could also use a handful of short AUI cables. > > Depending on what "short" means here, you may be able to make your own > with a pair of DA15s and some 15-pin ribbon cable. It doesn't have the > right transmission-line characteristics, but for sufficiently short > cables that doesn't matter in practice. (I once experimented; I had to > get up to something like three metres before I started getting a > significant level of errors.) I have certainly doen this with no problems with short (1 foot or less) cables to link a small transceriver to the socket on a distribution panel. The correct cable is not easy to get, at least not by the metre. Last time I needed soem I fond that it was generally only possible to get a large drunm of it costing several hundred pounds :-(. > > It seems to be difficult, at least for me, to find out just sort sort > of signals, in the electrical sense, run over AUI. But at 10Mb, bits OK, ther are 4 pairs in the cable. 3 of them are digital signals, the last is the power to the trnaceiver. In the proper calbe, the power pair is actually thicker wire than the other 3 pairs. The power pair is 12V. The logic signals are differnetial ECL IIRC. I can certianly check the exact detials, I have schemaitcs of ethernet interfaces nad transceives built from simple ICs. Acutally, looking at osmething like the PERQ scheamtics (EIO or OIO board) or the DEUNA printset, both, I think, on bitsavers, might help. FWIW, the cabl from the DEUNA (or wahtever board) to the bulkhead panel and the simialr cable i nthe PERQ 2 from the header on the backplane to the DA15 on the cabinet carry the ethernet signals, (there's no signal circuitry at the bulkhead/cabinet end in either case) and seem to be jsut plain IDC ribbon cable. So it's not suprising that you can use this for short traceiver drop cables. -tony From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Mar 3 00:43:54 2012 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 01:43:54 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F51BDAA.4000909@hawkmountain.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also > use a handful of short AUI cables. > > Thanks, > -Dave > I should have some AUI cables. Think they are around 2ish feet each (by memory). Finding them might be the challenge. How many are you looking for (or is 2-3 feet longer than what you are looking for ?) ? -- Curt From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Mar 3 00:46:26 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:46:26 -0000 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets In-Reply-To: References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> <0F24AE7F8CDA4B4CABC822F777FFB2CE@Edicons.local> Message-ID: Interesting - I meant replacing the whole rack with a non-DEC one and then making it look like a DEC one. You make a good point about making the slides fit. There is some basic compatability. For example an 11X84 cab is 42inchs = 24U (42"/1.75) Whilst it's not kosher I have on some non-DEC systems used fairly thick aluminum angle to support a rack unit without slides. Drill to match the position of the captive nuts and the front panel. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sander Reiche Sent: 02 March 2012 10:21 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > H960 Racks are a perennial problem to get hold of. However DEC rack mounting > OEM systems would go into non DEC supplied racks. Apart from DEC Racks > usually being painted black I believe most of the Beige bits would bolt onto > non DEC racks. > > Does anybody have any experience of making non DEC sourced racks look like > DEC ones? > I have yet to find non DEC racks that'll fit and work nicely with a H960. Everything I've tried, from early 2000s to current HP rack mounting kits to late 2000s to current EMC kits simply don't work/fit at all. re, Sander From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 3 02:10:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 03:10:43 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <201203021616.LAA10303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 2, 12 11:16:20 am Message-ID: <4F51D203.3050207@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2012 01:31 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Four pairs - sounds like standard UTP LAN cable ...except that's two pairs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 3 02:22:22 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 08:22:22 -0000 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F51BDAA.4000909@hawkmountain.net> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> <4F51BDAA.4000909@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <03d001ccf916$c3a72690$4af573b0$@ntlworld.com> Is there anyone in the UK with a few spare short AUI cables (between 2ft and 4ft?). Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > Sent: 03 March 2012 06:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: BA123 power supply, AUI cables > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also > > use a handful of short AUI cables. > > > > Thanks, > > -Dave > > > I should have some AUI cables. Think they are around 2ish feet each (by > memory). > > Finding them might be the challenge. How many are you looking for (or is > 2-3 feet longer than what you are looking for ?) ? > > -- Curt From cb at kryoflux.com Sat Mar 3 03:23:46 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 10:23:46 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F51E322.2090508@kryoflux.com> Tony, > > > Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the > > (old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really don't > It's partly that, but actually I think there's more to it. > > Firstly, I think it is a very bad idea to archive someing in a format > which is not fully docuemtned. The fact that there's somehign around > _now_ that can read it does not mean there will be soemthing aroudn in 50 > years time that can read it. At least if you know the archive format > then you have a chance of creatign somethign to make sense of it. That's why I explained that it is. You can have a detailed doc for our ingestion STREAM format and the complete source for the IPF decoder, including our high performance bit accurate WD177x emulator. There are even third party tools available working with it. > > Seocndly, these disk readers are, or at least should be, very verstile > devices. I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is available, so if > you want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other > type of disk then you can do so. That's why we store raw flux transitions. Even if no sector decoder matches, you can still read it at the lowest level. You even don't have to modify or change anything. > > And thirdly, there;'s the question of support. I've had_much_ better > support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from > commerical software companies. This may be becuase I am often talkign to > the guy who wrote hte code in the former case. It may be becuase they > genuinely care. You obviously never worked with me or anyone else in our organisation. But obviously the fact that we are commercial qualifies you to make any assumption regarding my (our) work ethics. Would it be fair to say all open source is crap because the tool I relied on has been discontinued? Why would any assumption qualify you to criticize what we do? What you say is: A green man cheated me. All green men will cheat. Note that green was chosen on purpose. If anyone reading this is green please accept my apologies. Many customers work directly with our head of development for very specific problems and usually we deliver solutions pretty quickly in a couple of hours or days. Apart from that we even publish the board schematics. You could build your own board and use our software for free which means I don't get a single cent from you yet I would still try to support you if possible. How many companies would do that? >> > feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people deliver good >> > work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get >> > paid because this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to >> > spend money for things that make the product better.You also can spend >> > the money to train programmers so they use latest techniques and don't > I think that's one of the msot insulting things against all the excellent > free software uthors that I have ever read. Are youy seriosuly claiming > that a program like gcc is no good becuase it's free and that the > programmers who wrote it are clueless and not motivated? [No, gcc is not > perfect. But it's better than several commercial C compilers I've been > forced to use]. Don't reverse my words! I said absolutely nothing about free software. I do like free software. I only outlined why being commercial is good for the path we've chosen. We can even afford sending someone over, like we did several times in the past, to help with setup and give a comprehensive hands-on lesson. We also can afford donating free boards and software to certain institutions because others subsidise them. What I said was that someone that gets paid will help you solve your problem and try to add whatever awkward format is needed to make you happy. I see nothing evil in that, because there aren't many volunteers around that will do this. > Quite simply if that's your attidude I do not wish to do business with you. Again, you never worked with us. How insulted would you feel if someone judged about you in public, without ever having worked with you? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 3 04:09:34 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 02:09:34 -0800 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F51E322.2090508@kryoflux.com> References: <4F51E322.2090508@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4F51EDDE.1020100@brouhaha.com> Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > You can have a detailed doc for our ingestion STREAM format and the > complete source for the IPF decoder, including our high performance > bit accurate WD177x emulator. There are even third party tools > available working with it. Cool, that sounds useful. I found the Stream Protocol page on your web site. Is the IPF decoder source on the site somewhere? If not, how do I get it? Thanks! Eric From chrise at pobox.com Sat Mar 3 06:17:27 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:17:27 -0600 Subject: gluing '60s plastics In-Reply-To: <20120302193211.B83534@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> <20120302193211.B83534@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120303121726.GC23298@n0jcf.net> On Friday (03/02/2012 at 07:32PM -0800), Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > > [1] OT; actually the platen knob from an old Smith-Corona typewriter. > > Bakelite? I didn't get the whole message but if someone is looking for a glue that is safe on old plastic, I have had success with this, http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/6/31/cntct_isns/overview/Loctite-Stikn-Seal-Indoor-Adhesive.htm which is an acrylic, water-based adhesive. No solvents to degrade the already degraded old plastic. I've used it to glue parts of the lid on model 33 Teletypes with good success. -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 09:14:32 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 10:14:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > And thirdly, there;'s the question of support. I've had _much_ better > support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from > commerical software companies. This may be becuase I am often talkign to > the guy who wrote hte code in the former case. It may be becuase they > genuinely care. It may be becuase they don't simply say 'That information > is proprietory'. Nto that I need such support very often, if I have the > source code, schematics, etc, then I'll probably fix it myself (and tell > the author the problem I had, the fix, and so on). In defense of the Software Preservation Society folks, I'll offer my experience: I am an admirer of Philip Pemberton's work, and voted with my wallet last year by purchasing a discferret. I still look forward to a usable tool chain based on that hardware, but the fact remains that it does not currently exist. Needing a means to archive and image my 1000+ diskettes, I purchased a Kryoflux board and set about archiving a mountain of 8" CP/M diskettes (only the tip of the iceberg). Technical issues arose trying to read a number of format types, and the SPS software guru ("IPF") has been 100% engaged and responsive in working torwards a solution. I have little doubt they will solve the problem in the near term. In the abstract, it would be great if all aspects of KF were opensource. As a practical matter, I don't care. If I had the time and skills to tweak the hardware and software in order to solve my immediate problem, I would have done so for the DiscFerret or my older Catweasel controller (which similarly cannot deal with the CP/M formats). The fact remains that I have neither the time nor the skills, so I do not begrudge the lack of source code. SPS has my money for the KF hardware, but I have paid $0.00 for the use of the software (since I don't do this for a living). Considering the outlay, I am delighted with the service and support to date. Steve p.s. - I still have high hopes for the DiscFerret as a means to read both diskettes and, particularly, MFM and RLL hard drives. The slow progress on software support is disappointing, but I believe it is moving forward and we'll all be better off when it gets here. -- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Mar 3 09:19:30 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 16:19:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > Providing detailed information on this would be helpful in the future if > someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum. What else do you need besides the service manual that contains all details and schematics? There are timing diagrams of the timing tracks along with all logic equations that are used to derive the individual parts from the read signals (e.g. sign bit, address part, opcode part). > I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably be checked out if a > replacement for the drum could be put together. What exactly is the problem? From a first look at the G-15 docs, there seem to be all required details of the drum and timing tracks. Christian From d235j.1 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 10:27:43 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 11:27:43 -0500 Subject: Discferret (WAS: Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73AF37A7-713D-45F8-B0DD-4D719B0C1996@gmail.com> > p.s. - I still have high hopes for the DiscFerret as a means to read both diskettes and, particularly, MFM and RLL hard drives. The slow progress on software support is disappointing, but I believe it is moving forward and we'll all be better off when it gets here. The biggest issue is that there's only one person doing most of the work, with a couple others helping. If more people were interested and willing and able to help (especially on the code side of things), it would definitely go much faster. Feel free to check out the IRC channel anytime, whether or not you can help in this way ;-) #discferret at irc.freenode.net --Dave From jws at jwsss.com Sat Mar 3 12:19:00 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 10:19:00 -0800 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F526094.5070308@jwsss.com> On 3/3/2012 7:19 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Al Kossow wrote: >> Providing detailed information on this would be helpful in the future >> if someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum. > > What else do you need besides the service manual that contains all > details and schematics? There are timing diagrams of the timing tracks > along with all logic equations that are used to derive the individual > parts from the read signals (e.g. sign bit, address part, opcode part). > >> I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably be checked out >> if a replacement for the drum could be put together. > > What exactly is the problem? From a first look at the G-15 docs, there > seem to be all required details of the drum and timing tracks. > reference manuals and documentation have a nasty habit of being less useful than an actual account of all of the procedures used by one who actually performed some deed. I would love to know what steps were used to read off a drum, if the unit had to be functional to operate the drum, what was modified, how was the drum spun up, what external circuitry was used to obtain the data. I think there is one LGP-30 drum in our posession and two LGP-30's, one functional, one maybe not so which all have drums. Before I'd embark on the task I'd love a detailed explanation of what you or your group did to do retrieve the data and store it, passively or if you had to restore things, what and how. There have been accounts here recently by people detailing what they did in detail which would be helpful for the restorers of such hardware, and that you digitized your drum is very interesting. The construction of a replacement would be aided in the insight gained in interfacing to the existing drum. > Christian > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 13:16:00 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 11:16:00 -0800 Subject: NCR Computer ID M05? In-Reply-To: <4F526094.5070308@jwsss.com> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> <4F526094.5070308@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F526DF0.7020505@gmail.com> This poor thing is in really bad shape and full of dead spiders and dirt. Can anyone tell me what it is from and if it is worth saving ? It's really disgusting and not sure I want to put it in my car to drag home from it's current location. I don't mean like a couple dead bugs in it. There are thousands and physically it's pretty damaged. I can find a few references to NCR M05 cpu's but, no pictures of the actual guts. The label does say M05 on it anyway. It's bigger than the pictures make it look. Probably 3' x 2' or a bit larger. http://imgur.com/a/Cja2y From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 3 14:58:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:58:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: gluing '60s plastics In-Reply-To: <20120303121726.GC23298@n0jcf.net> References: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> <20120302193211.B83534@shell.lmi.net> <20120303121726.GC23298@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120303124946.T9838@shell.lmi.net> > > > [1] OT; actually the platen knob from an old Smith-Corona typewriter. > > Bakelite? On Sat, 3 Mar 2012, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I didn't get the whole message but if someone is looking for a glue that > is safe on old plastic, I have had success with this, It is ALWAYS better to TRY to determine WHAT you are gluing, first. When OP said "old Smith-Corona typewriter", that might actually mean old. Or it could be a modern ELECTRIC PORTABLE. They did, of course change materials quite a bit. It also calls for at least SOME description of the break! (was it in perfect condition, and got knocked off a table? IS IT A CLEAN BREAK?? was it worn to the point that it no longer engaged the shaft? Is fill needed? Is the plastic badly oxidized?) > http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/6/31/cntct_isns/overview/Loctite-Stikn-Seal-Indoor-Adhesive.htm That seems to be well worth checking out for situations where a specific solution is not available! > which is an acrylic, water-based adhesive. No solvents to degrade the > already degraded old plastic. If it's a clean break of plastic in good condition, a slovent adhesive MIGHT be the BEST choice. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 13:38:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 19:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F5143C3.5060908@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 2, 12 05:03:47 pm Message-ID: > > It's probably taken you longer to send these messages than it would have > > taken to crimp an IDC DA15 onto each end of a bit of cable.... And I > > suspect the delivery time for such connectors from a reputable supplier > > (Farnell, Digikey, etc) would be no longer than having a cable sent to you. > > Sure, but those connectors aren't cheap, and people are throwing AUI > cables in the trash left and right. The DA15 is not that expensive... Wait until you want a DD50 IDC plug or sorcket (e.g. for Sun or PERQ 3 SCSI). Now that's a seriously expensive part. I guess you could buy the solder type and strip, tin and solcer all 15 pires of the ribbon cble to them.But I think I'd avoid that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 13:45:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 19:45:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <201203022233.RAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 2, 12 05:33:07 pm Message-ID: > > > I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is available, so if you > > want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other > > type of disk then you can do so. > > Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor requires you to use > to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on > your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its > license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use > expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc). Ture, and I avoid PFGAs as much as I can for those reasons (and more). However, I also feel that accurate information can never hinder you. Having the FPGA source for a device can't make it more difficult to modify or repair, and most likely will make it a lot easier. I would be much happier with the soruce than without it. > >> What I know is that people deliver good work when they are > >> motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get paid because > >> this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to spend > >> money for things that make the product better. You also can spend > >> the money to train programmers [...] > > I think that's one of the msot insulting things against all the > > excellent free software uthors that I have ever read. > > I think much of the insult is in your own perception, tony. I too see > no evil inhering in using money as a motivator. (Based on the That is not what I was commenting one. It was the attitude that his product is superiour to the Diskferret becasue he charges for it. > resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively poor one in many > cases, but that doesn't make it evil.) I am not convicned it;'s a motivator at all, at least not for the better programmerns (and hardware designers) that Iv'e worked with. Such people always turn out the best code/circuitry that they can. it's a matter of pride of them. They will not cut corners. And then there are people who will just grind out code to get their wages, but said code will not be well-written. Maybe there are exceptions, but I think they're rare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 13:56:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 19:56:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: gluing '60s plastics In-Reply-To: <4F517300.1040403@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 2, 12 07:25:20 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm not sure how much variety there was in the plastics available in the An awful lot! > late '50s / early '60s, but I've got a plastic part here from that era[1] > which needs sticking back together - is there any particular type of glue > that I should be wary of? I just have memories of those plastic model > airplane kits way back, where certain types of glue would dissolve the > plastic, and I don't want to have that happen on an unobtanium part... Actually, if you vcan find a solvent fo the plastic, one of the best ways to reapri it is to disolve the surface of the bereak ans weld the parts together. You can get substance called 'plastic weld' from good model shops. It's mostly dichloromethane (methylene chloride, CH_2Cl_2). If you can get some, first test the plastic by putting a drop on an inconspicuous part. If it goes sticky to the touch, it's disolving it. Then put the broken pieces together and run a bush dipped in the solvent along the cracks. It'll be drawn in in by cpillary action and will caus ethe parts to be wleded together. For soem repairs(but I suspect not i nthis case) you can make things stronger by puttign a piece of cotton fabric [1] on the back, 'painting' it with the solvent and forcing it into the softened plastic. [1] Either cut up an old shirt or ask wife/sister/mother/girfirend, etc if you're not sure what to use. I don;t know what the plastic involved is, of course. If it's a thermoset plastic, liek bakelite, then you won't find a solvent for it. Nor will you find oen for nylon or PTFE. For bakelite, I've found epxoy resin adhesives to be quite good. But almost noting sticks nylon or ptfe reliably. Oen thing to bear in mind is that this part broke for a reason. If it was becahse you dropped it, or knocked a heavy weight onto it, or somehting, that's OK. But if it ;just broke' then it's likely the plastic has deteriorated with time. In whcih case there's little point in sticking it, it'll just break again. In such cases I normally make a new part. SOmething like a platen know van't be too hard to machine... > > It's probably one of those things where there's no way of knowing - but I > figure it doesn't hurt to ask, and it's the sort of thing where if there is > a right answer, I expect that someone on this list will know it :-) > > [1] OT; actually the platen knob from an old Smith-Corona typewriter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 3 14:14:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 20:14:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F51E322.2090508@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 3, 12 10:23:46 am Message-ID: > That's why I explained that it is. You can have a detailed doc for our > ingestion STREAM format and the complete source for the IPF decoder, > including our high performance bit accurate WD177x emulator. There are > even third party tools available working with it. OK, right... I beleive that for the Diskferret I can get sources for everything (of course soembody might write closed-source softwre to work with it). For your device, which parts can I get the soruce for, and which can I not get it for? Are there any file formats involved that are not fully docuemtned? > > > > > Seocndly, these disk readers are, or at least should be, very verstile > > devices. I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is available, so if > > you want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other > > type of disk then you can do so. > > That's why we store raw flux transitions. Even if no sector decoder > matches, you can still read it at the lowest level. You even don't have > to modify or change anything. No, I think you misunderstood me here. I was talking aobut modifying the hardware to talk to other types of drives, other devices even. Not hadnling unusual ewncoding schems on devices (such as flopy drives) that are supported by the hardware. > > > > > And thirdly, there;'s the question of support. I've had_much_ better > > support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from > > commerical software companies. This may be becuase I am often talkign to > > the guy who wrote hte code in the former case. It may be becuase they > > genuinely care. > > You obviously never worked with me or anyone else in our organisation. That is correct (well, actually, I can't be sure becuase I don;t know who is in yor organisation)/ > But obviously the fact that we are commercial qualifies you to make any > assumption regarding my (our) work ethics. Would it be fair to say all That is not what I am doing at all. I feel that money is not a motivator at all (or at beast a very minor motivator) for good programmers and designers. And thus that there's no correlation between whether or not something costs money and how well-designed it is. I interpretted your original message as implying that you clained your device was better than the Diskferret becuase it was commercial amd you employed commerical progrmmers. My ecperience suggests that is faulty reasoning. > open source is crap because the tool I relied on has been discontinued? I fail to see how an open-source program cna be discontinmued. > Why would any assumption qualify you to criticize what we do? What you > say is: A green man cheated me. All green men will cheat. Note that > green was chosen on purpose. If anyone reading this is green please > accept my apologies. [FWIW, 'green' has 2 meanings when appleid to people in English. The first, anc rurently common one, means 'environmentally friendly. the older meaining is 'naive'. I am not convinced there's much differnece in some cases ;-)] > > Many customers work directly with our head of development for very > specific problems and usually we deliver solutions pretty quickly in a > couple of hours or days. > > Apart from that we even publish the board schematics. You could build > your own board and use our software for free which means I don't get a Does this design inovle any programmed parts (microcontrollers, FPGAs, etc)? If so, do you relase the code that goes into them? If not, then presuambly I buy them from you, and toy do 'make a cent from me'. > single cent from you yet I would still try to support you if possible. > How many companies would do that? > > >> > feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people deliver good > >> > work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get > >> > paid because this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to > >> > spend money for things that make the product better.You also can spend > >> > the money to train programmers so they use latest techniques and don't > > I think that's one of the msot insulting things against all the excellent > > free software uthors that I have ever read. Are youy seriosuly claiming > > that a program like gcc is no good becuase it's free and that the > > programmers who wrote it are clueless and not motivated? [No, gcc is not > > perfect. But it's better than several commercial C compilers I've been > > forced to use]. > > Don't reverse my words! I said absolutely nothing about free software. I > do like free software. I only outlined why being commercial is good for > the path we've chosen. We can even afford sending someone over, like we > did several times in the past, to help with setup and give a That is preceisely what I don't want or need. I want the information to solve the problems myself. The reason is simple, you (and your company) will not be around for ever, waht happens when I have problems in 10 years time? > comprehensive hands-on lesson. We also can afford donating free boards > and software to certain institutions because others subsidise them. I am sure this is very unfair to you, but 'the old dope pedlar' keeps runnign through my mind ;-) > > What I said was that someone that gets paid will help you solve your > problem and try to add whatever awkward format is needed to make you > happy. I see nothing evil in that, because there aren't many volunteers > around that will do this. > > > Quite simply if that's your attidude I do not wish to do business with you. > > Again, you never worked with us. How insulted would you feel if someone > judged about you in public, without ever having worked with you? It happens all the tiem, I can assure you... Now, let me ask some spcific questions beased on statements that have been made on this list and which you have not commetned on : 1) Did you use a 74HC244 buffer is the receiver for the drive cable. Did you then cause Phil (I think) to be thrown off a forum/facebook group when he commented on this? 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of interests' if somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the Diskferret? -tony From cb at kryoflux.com Sat Mar 3 15:37:38 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 22:37:38 +0100 Subject: IPF decoder library (was: Re: Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> You can have a detailed doc for our ingestion STREAM format and the >> complete source for the IPF decoder, including our high performance >> bit accurate WD177x emulator. There are even third party tools >> available working with it. > Cool, that sounds useful. I found the Stream Protocol page on your web > site. Is the IPF decoder source on the site somewhere? If not, how do > I get it? > > Thanks! > Eric Hi Eric, yes, it's here: http://www.softpres.org/news:2011-10-15 Please also check the forums. There is even more code available for both the STREAM files as well as the IPF decoder: http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=365 Enjoy. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 3 17:03:58 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:03:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: NCR Computer ID M05? In-Reply-To: <4F526DF0.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 3/3/12, DC wrote: > From: DC > Subject: NCR Computer ID M05? > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 11:16 AM > This poor thing is in really bad > shape and full of dead spiders and dirt. Can anyone tell me > what it is from and if it is worth saving ? It's really > disgusting and not sure I want to put it in my car to drag > home from it's current location. I don't mean like a couple > dead bugs in it. There are thousands and physically it's > pretty damaged. > > I can find a few references to NCR M05 cpu's but, no > pictures of the actual guts.???The label does > say M05 on it anyway. > > It's bigger than the pictures make it look. Probably 3' x 2' > or a bit larger. > > http://imgur.com/a/Cja2y It looks a lot like the CPU box in my NCR 399, a photo can be seen here: http://www.dvq.com/sale/ncr399-6.jpg Bob From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 17:17:33 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:17:33 -0800 Subject: NCR Computer ID M05? In-Reply-To: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F52A68D.4070207@gmail.com> That has to be it. Exact match minus the sitting in a field for ten years part. I also found a picture of the cpu cage here http://www.thecorememory.com/html/ncr_399.html On 3/3/2012 3:03 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > It looks a lot like the CPU box in my NCR 399, a photo can be seen > here: http://www.dvq.com/sale/ncr399-6.jpg Bob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 3 19:19:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 20:19:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203040119.UAA08798@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > However, I also feel that accurate information can never hinder you. Generally true, though I could probably construct a contrived counterexample (think needle in a haystack). >> (Based on the resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively >> poor one in many cases, but that doesn't make it evil.) > I am not convicned it;'s a motivator at all, at least not for the > better programmerns (and hardware designers) that Iv'e worked with. > Such people always turn out the best code/circuitry that they can. Hmm. You may be right that it's not a motiviator to turn out good code instead of crappy code, but I think it is, or at least can be, a motivator to create code instead of, oh, say, going rockclimbing - or to create code for the product in question instead of creating code for something completely different. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Mar 3 23:17:00 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 00:17:00 -0500 Subject: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> So does anyone know what happened to this auction? Thanks, Rob On Mar 1, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/01/2012 01:42 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: >> On ebay, item 230754098992. The seller is somewhat clueless about >> what he has (it's an 80s machine, not 60s) and is probably missing a >> zero from his estimate of what the thing weighs, but otherwise it >> looks complete and in good condition save for a couple of rack filler >> panels that look like someone drove into them. From the photos it >> looks like two 1600BPI drives, a couple of 8" Fuji SMD drives with >> some sort of emulating controller and three IAC-16s or equivalent. >> >> No affiliation with the seller, save for the fact that I'd be bidding >> on the thing if I could figure out how to get it from VA to CA. -- > > Wow! I'm going to try to grab that. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 23:54:09 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:54:09 -0800 Subject: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > So does anyone know what happened to this auction? > Hmm, maybe they got a local or private offer they couldn't refuse? http://www.ebay.com/itm/230754098992 Bidder i***i Cancelled: US $565.64 Explanation: The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids. Bid: Mar-01-12 12:17:44 PST Cancelled: Mar-02-12 06:05:19 PST Bidder i***i Cancelled: US $275.00 Explanation: The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids. Bid: Mar-01-12 15:01:11 PST Cancelled: Mar-02-12 06:05:19 PST From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 4 02:31:45 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 00:31:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where's Al Kossow? Message-ID: Has anyone communicated with Al Kossow lately? I emailed him a couple times a couple weeks ago about some scans I made for bitsavers.org and never heard back from him. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Mar 4 06:34:26 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:34:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Reading magnetic drums (was: Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: <4F526094.5070308@jwsss.com> References: <4F4FE65A.3080702@kryoflux.com> <4F502741.6000605@jwsss.com> <4F50EE00.1070306@bitsavers.org> <4F526094.5070308@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Mar 2012, jim s wrote: > I would love to know what steps were used to read off a drum, if the unit had > to be functional to operate the drum, what was modified, how was the drum > spun up, what external circuitry was used to obtain the data. I think there > is one LGP-30 drum in our posession and two LGP-30's, one functional, one > maybe not so which all have drums. First, I my opinion it is not so interesting in preserving the contents of an LGP-30 drum, simply because there most probably will be either nothing (e.g. after running the drum or acceptance test), or just 10.4 at the beginning, then e.g. the ACT runtime system, variables and temporary words (at track 63). There may be some text strings of a binary program, but there won't be any sources. But anyways, if you are looking at the drum, you'll cleary see what is needed to read it: run it (motor), take the clock from the clock track (clearly visible, its output is the coax cable), and the three timing tracks. Then you can select any data track you like, the diode selection matrix is almost self-explaining. We did all this even before we received any documents or schematics of the machine. It really is very trivial. We didn't modify anything, the drum was spun up by pluggin in the power cable into the outlet (for the first try, we attached a power cable directly to the drum motor; normally it goes to the relay box where power is applyed after 50 seconds). > Before I'd embark on the task I'd love a detailed explanation of what you or > your group did to do retrieve the data and store it, passively or if you had > to restore things, what and how. There's not much to explain. The LGP-30 is a very simple and solid machine. Clean all contacts (including tube sockets), have a look at the power supply, relay box and magnetic constanter, look for broken wires, disconnect the drum motor and fire up the machine. If it will pass the three power-on phases you'll have an (at least almost) working machine. Hook up the drum and start examining the contents. You may have a defective diode on the logic board or on one plugin board, but that won't destroy anything. Take a scope, trace any fault, repair it, et voila. > There have been accounts here recently by people detailing what they did in > detail which would be helpful for the restorers of such hardware, and that > you digitized your drum is very interesting. Is it? I find that very boring, especially since the task was unnecessary because the machine worked almost right away (after 20 years of storage). I think that we used the TL084 to digitize the read signal and feed the outputs to the set and reset inputs of an RS-FF (e.g. SN7474 or SN7400). That's it; it's essentially what the matrix drivers and read flip-flops do in the machine. You can watch the signal on a scope or logic analyser and decide whether there is something you want to preserve or not. In our case the drum contents of both machines was very unimpressive. > The construction of a replacement would be aided in the insight gained in > interfacing to the existing drum. I'd probably use a microcontroller to generate the timing signals and some sort of serdes with SRAM for the data. I've heard of at least one LGP-30 that had been upgraded this way. But the details are described well enough in the serivce manual. Christian PS: Apparently the English maintenance manual is not available, at least I can't find it. The link to the German one has been posted several times here, it is ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/docs/WHB.pdf From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Mar 4 08:02:07 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 15:02:07 +0100 Subject: Where's Al Kossow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5375DF.50209@update.uu.se> On 03/04/2012 09:31 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Has anyone communicated with Al Kossow lately? I emailed him a couple > times a couple weeks ago about some scans I made for bitsavers.org and > never heard back from him. > He posted to this list two days ago. /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 4 13:30:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 19:30:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <201203040119.UAA08798@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 3, 12 08:19:47 pm Message-ID: > > > However, I also feel that accurate information can never hinder you. > > Generally true, though I could probably construct a contrived > counterexample (think needle in a haystack). OK, I guess 'information overload' can occur. But I don;t think this applies here. Put it this way. I would never complain if I was given the source code (or PLD equations or...) for something I was using or repairing. I can always stick it on the shelf (or on a disk) until I need it. > > >> (Based on the resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively > >> poor one in many cases, but that doesn't make it evil.) > > I am not convicned it;'s a motivator at all, at least not for the > > better programmerns (and hardware designers) that Iv'e worked with. > > Such people always turn out the best code/circuitry that they can. > > Hmm. You may be right that it's not a motiviator to turn out good code > instead of crappy code, but I think it is, or at least can be, a > motivator to create code instead of, oh, say, going rockclimbing - or > to create code for the product in question instead of creating code for > something completely different. Yes, that seems reasonable. However code written simply becuase you're being paid for it may well not be teh best code. Whereas if you're doing something because you enjoy it it's likely you will take pride in your work and want to do the best you can. Of course 'the best you can' may be inferior to what others can do. I will admit I've seen soem well-designed, elegant commerical code and circuitry. I've also seen some well-designed, elegant open-source and circuitry. I can't say whether 'the bvest' that I've ever seen was commerical or open-soruce. What I do feel is that it's incorrect to say that one is always better than the other, and in particualr that becuase a piece of code is commerical means it will be good. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 17:52:32 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:52:32 -0600 Subject: Q-bus boards Message-ID: Partial list of double height Q-bus boards M3106 M3107 DHQ11 $40 M7090 35 M7195-FA MXV11 M7270 11/03 CPU M7504 DEQNA 35 M7546 TK50 25 M7555 RQDX3 M7559 TQK70 50 M7651 DRV11-WA M7740 M7818 M7940 DLV11 20 M7941 DRV11 M7944 MSV11-B 20 M7946 RXV11 45 M7949 LAV11 30 M7952 RRD50 M7954 50 M8043 DLV11-J 85 M8044 MSV11-DD 25 M8186 11/23 CPU M8192 11/73 CPU Option names may be off. I have some CPU?s without chip sets. $10 s/h for up to 4 boards within US. Please contact me with mail codes for overseas shipping quotes. Please contact me off list. I am working on quad boards and hope to have a list in a few weeks. Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 17:58:26 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 17:58:26 -0600 Subject: Vax 11/780, 11/785 parts Message-ID: If there is interest, I can get to 5 or 6 H7100's and about 50 or so boards soon. If no interest I will work around them. I still have an 11/780 spares kit here and at least one backplane( 11/780 I think). Thanks, Paul From paisley at erols.com Fri Mar 2 17:12:39 2012 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 18:12:39 -0500 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Connecting Brackets References: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <032101ccf7d8$f3a86dc0$daf94940$@ntlworld.com> <201203011914.000097@ms19.lnh.mail.rcn.net> <75e929723c83e839c4b6540cb5f354c6.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <006401ccf8c9$f72a9620$020a0a0a@cj2a> Thanks guys for the info and photos. I at least know what I should be looking for. If anyone has a set, I would be very interested! Todd. > I have put up 3 pics of them, these can be found at > http://www.groenenberg.net/download/jm/ > > They are more likely to be about 175cm than 190cm, but that's a small > detail. > > I happen to have 8 of them, 5 plastic ones and 3 metal ones. > > Ed From alkopop79 at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 20:08:29 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 02:08:29 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard Message-ID: I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been trying to build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input section. Please let me know if you have built one! Thanks Greg Lorincz From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 20:34:03 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:34:03 -0800 Subject: Wanted: CD drive for Sun SS20 Message-ID: <4F54261B.9020106@gmail.com> Does anyone have a unwanted Sun CD drive for an SS5/20 or any Aurora chassis box? The one in my SS20 seems to have died and I cant find one on ebay... The P/N for my broken one is 590625-D0. email me off the list if you have one! Many Thanks! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 21:03:59 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:03:59 -0500 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been trying to > build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input section. Please > let me know if you have built one! Thanks I built one from the original Popular Electronics magazine plans (including the CDP1861 interface). What's the problem? In my own case, when I first built it, I had a wiring fault that caused odd input behavior. I simply miscounted pins and miswired D5 or D6 somewhere. The fix was to move the join. To guess, I know of one common issue with hand-made 1802 designs - the 4016 and 4066 are not 100% interchangable. They have different switch response characteristics. ISTR the older designs used 4016 switches which are harder to find now than 4066 switches. If not that, then the other issue to investigate is to ensure that the input button is debounced and generating proper DMA-IN requests (and that the CPU is in LOAD mode). -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 01:37:35 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 23:37:35 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> ebay item 220965768120 These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore. The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course. Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers. From mcquiggi at me.com Sun Mar 4 21:19:47 2012 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 19:19:47 -0800 Subject: Anyone Having Problems With CHD's RX01 Emulator and Ubuntu 11.10? Message-ID: Hi All: Since my upgrade to Ubuntu 11.10, the excellent RX01 emulator from Charles Dickman that i have been using on my pdp-11 11/34 has stopped working. This interfaces to a PC using the PC's parallel port. I gather from the rather confusing mass of Ubuntu support information that several parallel port printers stopped working and failed to be recognized after an upgrade to 11.10. I have checked some of the fixes quoted but they don't apply to my installation. Anyone else have this problem? I can downgrade my Ubuntu to an earlier version, but if there's someone else who has solved this problem, I therefore thought I'd ask on the list first! Thanks in advance for any info, Kevin Sent from my iPad From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 5 01:55:08 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 02:55:08 -0500 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F54715C.1060004@atarimuseum.com> Talk about a great conversational piece in your home... "Oh that.... its the guidance computer for a thermonuclear missile.... no, seriously it is...." Get a piece of glass and make one of the most unusual coffee tables for your Man Cave :-) Curt DC wrote: > ebay item 220965768120 > > These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has > posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is > hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore. > > The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still > the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian > billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and > have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course. > > Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers. > > > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 5 02:31:12 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 00:31:12 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F54715C.1060004@atarimuseum.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F54715C.1060004@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4F5479D0.1070508@jwsss.com> Unless you already have one ... Jim On 3/4/2012 11:55 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Talk about a great conversational piece in your home... > > "Oh that.... its the guidance computer for a thermonuclear missile.... > no, seriously it is...." > > Get a piece of glass and make one of the most unusual coffee tables > for your Man Cave :-) > > > Curt > > > > DC wrote: >> ebay item 220965768120 >> >> These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has >> posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It >> is hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore. >> >> The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. >> Still the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a >> Russian billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on >> it, and have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course. >> >> Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 5 02:40:50 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 00:40:50 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> I looked in detail. It is a large chunk of magnesium scrap. no cards, horrible preservation. Jeesh did he find it in the ditch there? and a $100,000 reserve. Almost feels like I'm taking troll bait, but this guy might be this deluded and be serious. I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly). We got the documentation and some drum scrap from an auction about a year ago, which I think is on bitsavers, but this unit is as I said mainly something this guy should try not to set on fire, or let further corrode. Jim On 3/4/2012 11:37 PM, DC wrote: > ebay item 220965768120 > > These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has > posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is > hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore. > > The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still > the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian > billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and > have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course. > > Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers. > > > > > > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 02:44:27 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 00:44:27 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F5479D0.1070508@jwsss.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F54715C.1060004@atarimuseum.com> <4F5479D0.1070508@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F547CEB.3010901@gmail.com> As a coffee table ? Turn it into a coffee table. I would. It won't hurt it. Then you will be able to say, " I don't often make coffee tables but, when I do I make them out of nuclear missiles." On 3/5/2012 12:31 AM, jim s wrote: > Unless you already have one ... > Jim > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 5 02:54:49 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 00:54:49 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 4, at 11:37 PM, DC wrote: > ebay item 220965768120 Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I get this from ebay: Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to legal restrictions in some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to prevent restricted items from being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users from accessing items that are not within the scope of said restrictions because of limitations of existing technology. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause, and we hope you may find other items of interest on eBay. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 02:57:04 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 00:57:04 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F547FE0.6050405@gmail.com> It looks like $100k is his buy it now price. Who know what his reserve is. I never understood these high value reserve things. If he put 10k as the reserve it would take about 100 people bidding to get there. I wish they would just put a starting price and let people go from there. Seriously though. It's not just a chunk of magnesium scrap. Everyone knows that. On 3/5/2012 12:40 AM, jim s wrote: > I looked in detail. It is a large chunk of magnesium scrap. no > cards, horrible preservation. > > Jeesh did he find it in the ditch there? and a $100,000 reserve. > > Almost feels like I'm taking troll bait, but this guy might be this > deluded and be serious. > > I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing > from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly). > > We got the documentation and some drum scrap from an auction about a > year ago, which I think is on bitsavers, but this unit is as I said > mainly something this guy should try not to set on fire, or let > further corrode. > > Jim From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 02:59:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 00:59:47 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F548083.8010209@gmail.com> I would be more worried about Canada getting nuclear weapons than Iran any day. On 3/5/2012 12:54 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Mar 4, at 11:37 PM, DC wrote: > >> ebay item 220965768120 > > Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I > get this from ebay: > > Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due > to legal restrictions in > some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to > prevent restricted items from > being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users > from accessing items that > are not within the scope of said restrictions because of > limitations of existing technology. > Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause, > and we hope you may find > other items of interest on eBay. > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 5 03:09:07 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 01:09:07 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 2, at 6:08 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been trying to > build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input section. > Please > let me know if you have built one! Thanks I was refurbishing a school-project implementation from the 70's (not mine originally) just last summer. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/cosmacElf/index.html There's a re-organised version of the schematic there. I wasn't familiar with it in depth before this, although I remember it from the Pop Electronics article in the 70's. Kinda cute for its simplicity. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Mar 5 03:51:34 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 10:51:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I get > this from ebay: [...] The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US. Christian From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 5 03:57:27 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 01:57:27 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F547FE0.6050405@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> <4F547FE0.6050405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F548E07.5030800@jwsss.com> Yes, it is. It is a sad reminder that magnesium is a very active metal, and you should take care of it. Did you see any cards? The one(s) I have access to have all of theirs, and actually work. If you want to have the equivalent to a backplane and very expensive scrap, as I said... I emailed just in case the drum unit was not de-miled. The drums that I've found with others helping (just reports on the items) all have the casing, but no drum disk. Not clear if the drum is intact in this unit, but if it is, then the value is all in the drum for someone who has the unit already. One photo has what appears to be the drum assembly, but the entire state of preservation is horrible for the unit and may not be useful. That said, the connectors appear to have all been pulled on the the drum, and are dangling (and are in bad shape). So it may have been pulled, demiled or messed with in the past and be useful. I am cash poor, but would love to have the drum if it is intact with the guts. Jim On 3/5/2012 12:57 AM, DC wrote: > > Seriously though. It's not just a chunk of magnesium scrap. Everyone > knows that. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Mon Mar 5 04:20:00 2012 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 20:50:00 +1030 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201203052050.00227.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 08:21:34 PM Christian Corti wrote: > The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US. > > Christian It works fine from Australia, with a .au TLD. Alexis. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 04:29:54 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 02:29:54 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F548E07.5030800@jwsss.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> <4F547FE0.6050405@gmail.com> <4F548E07.5030800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F5495A2.8030301@gmail.com> I'm not saying it's worth 100k. Maybe it is though. Apple I can go for more. Pretty sure there are more of them around . Still that isn't scrap of any sort. Looks in great shape to me. Be great to have the cards but, in the end I don't think it matters for something like this. That is a very rare bit of computer and cold war technology there. If I could afford to buy it I would. From what I read these were pretty much the last nuclear missile technology to make it out into the public. I am not 100% sure they couldn't swoop down and take it back if they wanted to. Like moon rocks there are some things they can just take back. It is just if they feel like bothering. That might be a concern when paying a $100k for it. On 3/5/2012 1:57 AM, jim s wrote: > Yes, it is. It is a sad reminder that magnesium is a very active > metal, and you should take care of it. > > Did you see any cards? The one(s) I have access to have all of > theirs, and actually work. > > If you want to have the equivalent to a backplane and very expensive > scrap, as I said... > > I emailed just in case the drum unit was not de-miled. The drums that > I've found with others helping (just reports on the items) all have > the casing, but no drum disk. Not clear if the drum is intact in this > unit, but if it is, then the value is all in the drum for someone who > has the unit already. > > One photo has what appears to be the drum assembly, but the entire > state of preservation is horrible for the unit and may not be useful. > That said, the connectors appear to have all been pulled on the the > drum, and are dangling (and are in bad shape). So it may have been > pulled, demiled or messed with in the past and be useful. > > I am cash poor, but would love to have the drum if it is intact with > the guts. > Jim > > O From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 5 05:56:16 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:56:16 +0000 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F54A9E0.5090806@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/03/2012 09:51, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I >> get this from ebay: > [...] > > The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US. It's visible and biddable-on in the UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 06:17:30 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:17:30 +0100 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F54A9E0.5090806@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <4F54A9E0.5090806@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4F54AEDA.6060402@gmail.com> On 2012-03-05 12:56, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/03/2012 09:51, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I >>> get this from ebay: >> [...] >> >> The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US. > > It's visible and biddable-on in the UK. That's starnge, because here, in the Netherlands, I can't view the auction, whether with .nl, .com or .co.uk domains. And my IP address is registers as originating in the UK. .tsooJ From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 07:18:09 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 08:18:09 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?DC > Date:?Sat, 03 Mar 2012 11:16:00 -0800 > Subject:?NCR Computer ID M05? > This poor thing is in really bad shape and full of dead spiders and dirt. Can anyone tell me what it is from and if it is worth saving ? It's really disgusting and not sure I want to put it in my car to drag home from it's current location. I don't mean like a couple dead bugs in it. There are thousands and physically it's pretty damaged. > > I can find a few references to NCR M05 cpu's but, no pictures of the actual guts. ? The label does say M05 on it anyway. > > It's bigger than the pictures make it look. Probably 3' x 2' or a bit larger. > > http://imgur.com/a/Cja2y The boards look like the ones in the NCR 8250 at the RICM. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ncr-8250 -- Michael Thompson From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Mar 5 09:09:20 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:09:20 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. Message-ID: Bl@@dy ebay sellers... I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete with what looks like a matching branded monitor. Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody else wanted it. Called yesterday to arrange collection, got "oh, we got it out for you and it looks like it was broken when we moved house". How broken? "a crack, and there's a cable missing." told them no worries, would still have it, should be able to fix it. "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go check if it was still about, I did still want it! Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all been taken away this morning.." Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! The problem is, old == worthless, and if it's worthless (reinforced by it selling for almost nothing, even though that's all they asked for) then it doesn't matter. OK, it's not like it was a set of backup discs from Prestel itself, just a terminal to access it, but it's still galling. (The other, I'd drive to the other end of the country to kick down their door if I thought it would put me on the trail of them!) Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 5 09:18:25 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 07:18:25 -0800 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:09 PM +0000 3/5/12, Rob wrote: >Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... Let's see, they put it up on eBay, you had the winning bid, there is a good chance that they decided it wasn't worth the effort of packing it for the amount you won it for, and they threw it out. Yeah, I'd say you'd be justified. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 5 09:29:12 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:29:12 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Rob wrote: > Bl@@dy ebay sellers... > > I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete ?with what looks like a > matching branded monitor. ?Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody > else wanted it. > > Called yesterday to arrange collection, got "oh, we got it out for you > and it looks like it was broken when we moved house". > > How broken? ?"a crack, and there's a cable missing." I'd complain. Definitely. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 09:47:45 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 07:47:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1330962465.92825.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/5/12, Rob wrote: > Sigh..? Anyway rant over.? Wonder if I can justify > leaving them a Neg... Lets see... You purchased something from a seller, entering a binding contract, and they failed to deliver. Time for a big fat negative! It's more than justified. Sellers like this really tick me off. If you can't hold up your end of the deal, then you have no business selling on eBay. Not that negative feedback really means a heck of a lot, but since they probably refunded your money, you can't sick PayPal on them. I've had similar things happen to me, where I purchased something and paid, only to have my money refunded with a lame "I tested it and it doesn't work" story. It was only a $15 keyboard, but I went back and forth with the seller, telling him that I didn't care if it doesn't work, I bought it as-is, and I still want and need it. To which he came back with some other lame excuse... Not much I could do other than negative feedback, because I wasn't out any money. Still ticks me off, and I'm still looking for a decent VC4404 keyboard. The one I have is pretty beat up and missing keys. -Ian From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Mar 5 10:18:58 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:18:58 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F54E772.3000607@verizon.net> Rob, On 3/5/2012 10:09 AM, Rob wrote: > Bl@@dy ebay sellers... > > I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete with what looks like a > matching branded monitor. Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody > else wanted it. > Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had > sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! You hit the nail on the head. I'm sure if you had won it at 100 quid, then I think they would have made it available to you. They offered it for 99 pence, and you won it at that price. If they didn't want to deal with it at 99 pence, then they should have listed it with a higher starting price. Or listed a reserve, or done something else than starting it at 99p. > Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... Definitely. They violated the basic terms of the agreement. Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 10:32:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:32:12 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <4F54E772.3000607@verizon.net> References: <4F54E772.3000607@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... > > Definitely. They violated the basic terms of the agreement. And leave in the comments that they threw out a nigh-irreplaceable piece of vintage equipment. It's really appalling behavior on the part of a seller regardless, but that really does it for me. - Dave From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 5 10:48:23 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:48:23 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F54E772.3000607@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:32 PM, David Riley wrote: > And leave in the comments that they threw out a nigh-irreplaceable > piece of vintage equipment. ?It's really appalling behavior on the > part of a seller regardless, but that really does it for me. Someone was going to give me, *give* me, a IMSAI 8080. Working. Instead of even trying to get some money for it from me (which I would have paid) they threw it away. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 5 10:56:40 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:56:40 -0700 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F548083.8010209@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <4F548083.8010209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F54F048.3030506@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/5/2012 1:59 AM, DC wrote: > I would be more worried about Canada getting nuclear weapons than Iran > any day. No problem here, any NUKE's I find ; I'll send back to the U.S. quick as possible. From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Mar 5 11:01:32 2012 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:01:32 -0600 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F54F16C.4000905@tdh.com> Doubt anyone here would watch or care, but just as an interesting bit that someone who writes TV sitcoms understands this. There was a Malcolm in the Middle Episode S04E15 "Garage Sale" where they go through this exact situation. http://www.tv.com/shows/malcolm-in-the-middle/garage-sale-225447/ "Malcolm suggests that the family have a garage sale in order to earn money to pay for the repairs in Hal and Lois' room (caused by Hal in "Hal's Friend"). Lois, finally returning, decides to put Reese in charge, because while she was away she was reminded of her childhood and how she was never encouraged, and now wants to give Reese a chance to prove himself. Malcolm hates that Reese is in charge especially when he is instructed to throw out a Nortair 680B computer part (worth $1300). Malcolm plans on making everyone realize the mistake and enlists Craig's help. Hal finds an old transmission that he used to run a pirate radio and decides to hook it up for old times sake. Dewey decides to sell things from the house. Meanwhile, Francis tries to get Otto to open up about his long lost son." From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 11:18:40 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:18:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: old != worthless, you got scammed In-Reply-To: References: <4F54E772.3000607@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1330967920.81742.YahooMailNeo@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I bet good money they didn't throw it away.. I bet someone e-mailed them to say i will offer you more after the bid and they said. "ok" and sold it to that person instead. I would give them negative feedback and forward their e-mails to ebay From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 5 11:21:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:21:05 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F54F601.8000501@bitsavers.org> On 3/5/12 12:40 AM, jim s wrote: > I looked in detail. It is a large chunk of magnesium scrap. no cards, horrible preservation. > I agree with Jim. The seller is delusional. There are several pictures on the web of what it should look like with all of its covers and cards on the web. You could make a better looking coffee table out of plywood. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 5 11:23:13 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:23:13 -0500 Subject: Minuteman Computer References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 00:59:47 -0800 From: DC > I would be more worried about Canada getting nuclear weapons than Iran any > day. Damn straight! And we doan need no steenkin' missiles to deliver 'em neither! From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 5 11:25:49 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:25:49 -0500 Subject: Minuteman Computer References: Message-ID: <13E80EB8488B41928EDB4729A3671F24@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 00:54:49 -0800 From: Brent Hilpert > Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I get > this from ebay: > Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to > legal restrictions... ----- Reply: Guess they're worried about all the ex-pat Chinese and you rabble-rousing anti-war ex-hippie trouble-makers out there on the left coast; no problem accessing it from staid, conservative, trustworthy old Toronto... From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Mar 5 11:31:24 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:31:24 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F54E772.3000607@verizon.net> Message-ID: <059001ccfaf5$ca61f290$5f25d7b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> John Many Jars wrote: > Someone was going to give me, *give* me, a IMSAI 8080. Working. > > Instead of even trying to get some money for it from me (which I would > have paid) they threw it away. That wasn't recently in the Washington, DC area was it? I had a nightmare vision a few weeks ago that I spent several hours trying to convince myself I didn't see. I was in traffic and there was a "junk truck" ahead of me. Underneath a refrigerator and a couple of microwaves, I was sure I saw an IMSAI. Due to the traffic, I couldn't catch up and try to flag the guy down. Very frustrating. Bill Sudbrink From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 11:56:50 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:56:50 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <13E80EB8488B41928EDB4729A3671F24@vl420mt> References: <13E80EB8488B41928EDB4729A3671F24@vl420mt> Message-ID: Hey all signed in through ebay canada can see the auction just fine and I live in Castlegar BC in the heart of the hippie movement ;) chris On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message: > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 00:54:49 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > > > Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I get >> this from ebay: >> > > Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to >> legal restrictions... >> > > ----- Reply: > > Guess they're worried about all the ex-pat Chinese and you rabble-rousing > anti-war ex-hippie trouble-makers out there on the left coast; no problem > accessing it from staid, conservative, trustworthy old Toronto... > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 12:04:01 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F54F601.8000501@bitsavers.org> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> <4F54F601.8000501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F550011.5000705@gmail.com> I don't think anyone would pay 100k for it but, it certainly isn't just magnesium scrap. Having a fake made out of plywood is not the same as telling people you have an actual piece of a missile. The CHM would be nothing but, plywood mockups if it was. What would be the difference ? Anyway, it's worth as much people are willing to pay for it. I am constantly surprised. I am sure I will be for this too. Someone should forward the auction it to Paul Allen. On 3/5/2012 9:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I agree with Jim. The seller is delusional. There are several pictures > on the web of what it > should look like with all of its covers and cards on the web. You > could make a better looking > coffee table out of plywood. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 5 12:39:47 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:39:47 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F54F048.3030506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <4F548083.8010209@gmail.com> <4F54F048.3030506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F550873.1050004@jwsss.com> The rate of return is what we are all worried about. when it is returned on the tip of an ICBM that is not so good. On 3/5/2012 8:56 AM, ben wrote: > On 3/5/2012 1:59 AM, DC wrote: >> I would be more worried about Canada getting nuclear weapons than Iran >> any day. > > No problem here, any NUKE's I find ; I'll send back to the U.S. > quick as possible. > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 5 12:49:55 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:49:55 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F550011.5000705@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> <4F54F601.8000501@bitsavers.org> <4F550011.5000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F550AD3.5090408@jwsss.com> I don't know bout the price, but the seller is just an old guy who cleaned out a barn. He will be hopefully putting up more photos. He says the drum center unit is missing, but I want to verify that. He didn't know what the term "demil-ed" meant, nor inferred it from being at DRMO auctions, so I'm inclined to believe it is just a "found in the barn" situation. I'd be guessing he wants piles for it, and may get it from the types who like to have weird and sad relics like converted parts of classic aircraft as furniture in their houses (sad because the ones who started the business destroyed working aircraft). In this case it would be a conversation starter, but as one with way more of those in the house than any wife should (and does) put up with it will get old fast. I'm only ranting and apologize to DC, to who I should have thanked for putting eyeballs on something I missed, because I'd really like to find the drum. There are sets of documentation and machine and carcass of the drum unit out there, but nothing recorded electronically of what was run on them. And I don't mean outbound to their destination, but in the schools where most of the resided. I'm hoping to get some history, as i suspect it ended up in the "barn" when someone took it from a local school. It might be tracable, as I think I saw a list somewhere exchanged between owners of these as to who had them. It may be too late to find other bits of it he had and didn't recognize. thanks again DC for spotting and posting, you are coming at it from a different angle than I am, and have a valid point. And it is a lot of magnesium, if it lights off in your man cave it isn't going to be pretty. I don't think it's the alloy kind used in wheels, but a large chunk of fairly pure magnesium. Jim On 3/5/2012 10:04 AM, DC wrote: > I don't think anyone would pay 100k for it but, it certainly isn't > just magnesium scrap. Having a fake made out of plywood is not the > same as telling people you have an actual piece of a missile. The CHM > would be nothing but, plywood mockups if it was. What would be the > difference ? > > Anyway, it's worth as much people are willing to pay for it. I am > constantly surprised. I am sure I will be for this too. Someone should > forward the auction it to Paul Allen. > > On 3/5/2012 9:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> I agree with Jim. The seller is delusional. There are several >> pictures on the web of what it >> should look like with all of its covers and cards on the web. You >> could make a better looking >> coffee table out of plywood. > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 5 12:59:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:59:10 -0800 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <059001ccfaf5$ca61f290$5f25d7b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: , , <059001ccfaf5$ca61f290$5f25d7b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F549C7E.9347.5D3DFE@cclist.sydex.com> Yeah, eBay seems to be full of this kind of thing. I won an auction for some minor stuff a couple of months ago. Silence, then a note from the seller saying that he didn't notice that the auction had closed--followed by a note saying that he dropped the item and the plastic case had cracked. When I asked him to send the item anyway (I wanted the guts, not the case), he said he'd thrown it away already. Funny thing is that the item had a metal case... I tend to trust the Chinese sellers more than the domestic ones, all things considered. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 5 13:51:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20120305114907.K81710@shell.lmi.net> > I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing > from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly). I thought that almost all of them were missing the delivery system and the payload. Or are those considered "peripherals" to the computer? Available after-market? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 5 13:54:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:54:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20120305115316.V81710@shell.lmi.net> > > Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I get > > this from ebay: > [...] > The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US. Only USA permits private ownership of nuclear missiles? (Or just the guidance system? and the other components are permitted?) From barythrin at yahoo.com Mon Mar 5 14:24:33 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: old != worthless, you got scammed In-Reply-To: <1330967920.81742.YahooMailNeo@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1330979073.58266.YahooMailClassic@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It's one of those unfortunate scenarios on both ends. Could be a scam as I've read that happening on an increasing basis from buyers getting too good to be true end prices, although I'm not sure any had seen the item resurface or if they watch the seller closely enough. Sometimes I do wonder though since the shipping cost, gas and packing for the seller probably outweighs even dragging the thing(s) to the post office. Still, unfortunate if it's true and just naive sellers. Always seems to be on the extreme on both ends, it's either old and must be "r at re!!!" and super expensive starting bid due to ignorance, or it's garbage and they don't really want to deal with it unless it's enough to cover their own costs and/or toss it when it doesn't hit their reserve. Bugs me when I watch auctions with too high of a starting bid stay up for a while from some recycler, get reposted with the same obviously non-selling price tag then eventually it doesn't get reposted for anything practical. :-/ I can only assume the worst. --- On Mon, 3/5/12, Christian Liendo wrote: > From: Christian Liendo > Subject: old != worthless, you got scammed > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 11:18 AM > I bet good money they didn't throw it > away.. > > I bet someone e-mailed them to say i will offer you more > after the bid and they said. "ok" and sold it to that person > instead. > > I would give them negative feedback and forward their > e-mails to ebay > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 5 14:26:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:26:36 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <20120305115316.V81710@shell.lmi.net> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120305115316.V81710@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F55217C.1080208@bitsavers.org> On 3/5/12 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > (Or just the guidance system? and the other components are permitted?) > As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one time occurrence. The history is completely documented on the scanned material from the Minuteman User's Group documents on bitsavers. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17/ I would appreciate it if people would READ it before saying anything more on this subject. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 5 14:38:08 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:38:08 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F552430.2000106@jwsss.com> I had a long talk with Douglas, the seller. He knows some amount of information about it, some correct some not. I've helped him with some information, and will try to get / give more info. He is an antique dealer in Rhode Island. The unit came from a school, which I'm trying to get, and hope to later. The drum unit is probably de-miled. all of the cards are missing. The unit was taken when trashed by the school, literally by a janitor and stored for many years. It was acquired several years later by another individual (early September 2001, sound familiar). Due to unwarranted hysteria the second owner was fearful it was "illegal" and did nothing with it until recently. Douglas acquire it for a substantial amount of loot, and does have quite a bit of skin in the game. I know there is only a market among those here who could get it probably a small price (some of you may have lots of bucks) but I don't think many will offer what he needs for it. I'm thinking it will go to someone who wants a real gee-whiz sort of gadget as said elsewhere. I'm going to try to get more information and photos for bitsavers, or for my own edification at any rate. If anyone on the list knows more about the item directly and would help with information, contact me off list, I have his phone #. thanks Jim On 3/4/2012 11:37 PM, DC wrote: > ebay item 220965768120 > > These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has > posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is > hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore. > > The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still > the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian > billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and > have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course. > > Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers. > > > > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 5 14:41:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:41:51 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: > To guess, I know of one common issue with hand-made 1802 designs - the > 4016 and 4066 are not 100% interchangable. They have different switch > response characteristics. ISTR the older designs used 4016 switches > which are harder to find now than 4066 switches. It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in the Elf, I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say that I've actually tried it, though. > If not that, then the other issue to investigate is to ensure that the > input button is debounced Yes, that is quite important. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 5 14:10:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 20:10:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F548083.8010209@gmail.com> from "DC" at Mar 5, 12 00:59:47 am Message-ID: > > I would be more worried about Canada getting nuclear weapons than Iran > any day. It's not Canada that worries me... "We'll try to stay serene and calm When Alabama gets the Bomb" (Tom Lehrer of course) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 5 14:37:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 20:37:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Mar 5, 12 03:09:20 pm Message-ID: > > Bl@@dy ebay sellers... > > I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete with what looks like a > matching branded monitor. Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody > else wanted it. > > Called yesterday to arrange collection, got "oh, we got it out for you > and it looks like it was broken when we moved house". > > How broken? "a crack, and there's a cable missing." > > told them no worries, would still have it, should be able to fix it. > > "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go > check if it was still about, I did still want it! > > Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all > been taken away this morning.." I asuume you've paid for this unit. In which case, what right to they think they have to throw out an item of _your_ property? I have a naturally suspicious mind... I would not be suprised if this machine still exists, intact. And that the seller was disappointed with the fianl selling price. I would watch very carefully for a similar machine appearing... > Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had > sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! That actualy is a problem. The final selling price in an auction is not the true value of the machine, in that the high bidder may well ahve been prpared to pay more for it, but didn't have to. > > The problem is, old == worthless, and if it's worthless (reinforced by > it selling for almost nothing, even though that's all they asked for) > then it doesn't matter. > > OK, it's not like it was a set of backup discs from Prestel itself, > just a terminal to access it, but it's still galling. (The other, I'd > drive to the other end of the country to kick down their door if I > thought it would put me on the trail of them!) > > Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... I think I'd do that as a starting point./ And then consider other (legal) ways of redress. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 5 15:15:01 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:15:01 -0500 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> On 03/05/2012 03:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >> To guess, I know of one common issue with hand-made 1802 designs - >> the 4016 and 4066 are not 100% interchangable. They have different >> switch response characteristics. ISTR the older designs used 4016 >> switches which are harder to find now than 4066 switches. > It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their > characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in > the Elf, I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say > that I've actually tried it, though. > I have no difference. >> If not that, then the other issue to investigate is to ensure that >> the input button is debounced > Yes, that is quite important. > that and also making sure all the wires go where they are supposed to. I've built many of the COSMAC ELFs over the years and still have my wire wrapped original, a QUEST PCB version and a few more wire wrapped variants. I made a version of the ELF on S100. I also have the EELF and ELF2000. It was a simple and very non-critical CPU to build up and make work. Of the old CPUs I still play with and use the Z80 (Z180, Z280) are most used, 8085 the next, 8048/51, 1802, and the 6100(pdp8). Of all the 1802 is the most interesting as it's not unlike the PDP-8 in that its simple to the extreme yet still useful. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 5 15:21:40 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:21:40 -0500 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <20120305114907.K81710@shell.lmi.net> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <4F547C12.9060305@jwsss.com> <20120305114907.K81710@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F552E64.5080101@verizon.net> On 03/05/2012 02:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing >> from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly). > I thought that almost all of them were missing the delivery system and the > payload. Or are those considered "peripherals" to the computer? > Available after-market? > The disk appears to be on that one but most everything else is missing save for the back interconnect. Many of the m the disk had crashed hard and was in need of serious work. it also looks like it was found in a junk yard as it's not pretty. Allison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 5 15:22:46 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:22:46 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5BB8112B-1A43-46A9-B74E-71F5124BDD59@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 5, at 12:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >> To guess, I know of one common issue with hand-made 1802 designs - >> the 4016 and 4066 are not 100% interchangable. They have different >> switch response characteristics. ISTR the older designs used 4016 >> switches which are harder to find now than 4066 switches. > It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in > their characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is > used in the Elf, I can't see how it would make any difference. I > can't say that I've actually tried it, though. > >> If not that, then the other issue to investigate is to ensure that >> the input button is debounced > Yes, that is quite important. The basic design does provide debouncing, as I'm sure you are aware (although how it is achieved might be considered either cute or questionable, depending upon one's attitude to design). I wondered why they bothered to debounce the nCLEAR and nWAIT lines when they are level-sensing rather than edge-triggerred, but I haven't really examined the details of the 1802 functioning in depth. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 15:48:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:48:50 -0500 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:15 PM, allison wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >> It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their >> characteristics. ?However, in the simple way in which it is used in the Elf, >> I can't see how it would make any difference. ?I can't say that I've >> actually tried it, though. > > I have no difference. I was told by the engineer who made the Quest SuperElf that he had a problem subbing 4066s for 4016s. He was rather insistent there was a problem. I have not tried it myself, either. My breadboard Elf and my Quest Elf have 4016 switches. > that and also making sure all the wires go where they are supposed to. Indeed. That was my problem on my Popular Electronics Elf. > I've built many of the COSMAC ELFs over the years and still have my wire > wrapped original, a > QUEST PCB version and a few more wire wrapped variants. I made a version of > the ELF on S100. Nice. > I also have the EELF and ELF2000. ? It was a simple and very non-critical > CPU to build up and make work. Yep. I've built those, too. I just pulled out my Elf2K this weekend. I need to re-do the switch plate label - somehow a drop of oil got onto the paper and left a stain. >?Of all the 1802 is the most interesting as it's > not unlike the PDP-8 in that its > simple to the extreme yet still useful. Agreed. There's one thing I can do on my Elf2000 that I still can't do on a PDP-8... play Zork. -ethan From rickthornquist at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 16:10:52 2012 From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:10:52 -0800 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes Message-ID: Hi All - I have some old DECsystem-20 9 track tapes that I'd very much like to get dumped. As I mentioned previously, I'm writing a book about Infocom. One of the Infocommies kept some tapes from the early days of the company, circa 1981, and I'd love to get a dump of what's on them. I realized there are services that do this, but I hoping to avoid the cost (which, I suspect, would be out of my reach). Does anyone have a system that could read these tapes and dump the data (or know someone that does)? I'd appreciate any help that you could give me on this. - Rick From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Mar 5 16:32:15 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 23:32:15 +0100 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120305223215.GA22203@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Rob wrote: > Bl@@dy ebay sellers... > > I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete with what looks like a > matching branded monitor. Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody > else wanted it. > > Called yesterday to arrange collection, got "oh, we got it out for you > and it looks like it was broken when we moved house". > > How broken? "a crack, and there's a cable missing." > > told them no worries, would still have it, should be able to fix it. > > "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go > check if it was still about, I did still want it! > > Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all > been taken away this morning.." > > Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had > sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! > > The problem is, old == worthless, and if it's worthless (reinforced by > it selling for almost nothing, even though that's all they asked for) > then it doesn't matter. > > OK, it's not like it was a set of backup discs from Prestel itself, > just a terminal to access it, but it's still galling. (The other, I'd > drive to the other end of the country to kick down their door if I > thought it would put me on the trail of them!) > > Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... Guys, cool down everybody. That sort of ugly things happen every day overall on to world to us. people are assholes, aren't them? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 16:40:32 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:40:32 -0700 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rick Thornquist writes: > Does anyone have a system that could read these tapes and dump the data (or > know someone that does)? I'd appreciate any help that you could give me on > this. The biggest issue is physical integrity of the tapes themselves. Taking some pictures would be a good start. (Not just the plastic tape rings, but the actual tape itself.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Mar 5 16:40:53 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 23:40:53 +0100 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5540F5.6060807@update.uu.se> On 03/05/2012 11:10 PM, Rick Thornquist wrote: > Hi All - > > I have some old DECsystem-20 9 track tapes that I'd very much like to get > dumped. > > As I mentioned previously, I'm writing a book about Infocom. One of the > Infocommies kept some tapes from the early days of the company, circa 1981, > and I'd love to get a dump of what's on them. I realized there are > services that do this, but I hoping to avoid the cost (which, I suspect, > would be out of my reach). > > Does anyone have a system that could read these tapes and dump the data (or > know someone that does)? I'd appreciate any help that you could give me on > this. > > - Rick Where are you located. And what densities are the tape? Regards, Pontus. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 5 16:47:18 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:47:18 -0700 Subject: Minuteman Computer - humor In-Reply-To: <4F550873.1050004@jwsss.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <4F548083.8010209@gmail.com> <4F54F048.3030506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F550873.1050004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F554276.1070000@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/5/2012 11:39 AM, jim s wrote: > The rate of return is what we are all worried about. when it is returned > on the tip of an ICBM that is not so good. > How about I use this old bomber ... You get a free cowboy with every payload. :) Ben Strange glove. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 17:09:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 18:09:01 -0500 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F55217C.1080208@bitsavers.org> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120305115316.V81710@shell.lmi.net> <4F55217C.1080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one > time occurrence. And I suspect that release was not supposed to happen. Serious breach of nuke protocol. -- Will From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Mar 5 17:15:36 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:15:36 +1300 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <20120305223215.GA22203@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120305223215.GA22203@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: One of the problems is with e-bay's fee structure. Here is New Zealand, few people use e-Bay. They use Trade Me ( www.trademe.co.nz). One difference between Trade Me and e-Bay is that that with Trade Me there is a fixed insertion (or what we call listing) fee. This does not relate to the initial listed price. In other words, there is no difference in fees to the seller if the item is listed for 0.99 cents or $999. This means that you hardly EVER see items listed for tiny amounts unless they are a pick-up only or are really easy to ship, like books, CDs or computer cards. People normally list at the minimum price they would like to get for the item plus a no-reserve. It doesn't cost them any more to do so. Although shipping costs are calculated separately, it means someone with an old computer that they really just want to get rid of, could list it at, say $20-no-reserve which might be the "hassel-factor' in shipping it. Point is, it will cost them no more listing the item at that than at 0.99 cents, which is not the case with e-bay. In summary with e-bay, there is a fee incentive to list well below the minimum price of what the seller really feels the item is worth. With Trade Me there is no incentive for a low listing so people list at the minimum price they are prepared to let something go at. If it goes higher, it's a bonus. It avoids the kind of problem being dicussed. Terry (Tezza) On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Rob wrote: > > > Bl@@dy ebay sellers... > > > > I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete with what looks like a > > matching branded monitor. Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody > > else wanted it. > > > > Called yesterday to arrange collection, got "oh, we got it out for you > > and it looks like it was broken when we moved house". > > > > How broken? "a crack, and there's a cable missing." > > > > told them no worries, would still have it, should be able to fix it. > > > > "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go > > check if it was still about, I did still want it! > > > > Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all > > been taken away this morning.." > > > > Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had > > sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! > > > > The problem is, old == worthless, and if it's worthless (reinforced by > > it selling for almost nothing, even though that's all they asked for) > > then it doesn't matter. > > > > OK, it's not like it was a set of backup discs from Prestel itself, > > just a terminal to access it, but it's still galling. (The other, I'd > > drive to the other end of the country to kick down their door if I > > thought it would put me on the trail of them!) > > > > Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... > > > Guys, cool down everybody. > That sort of ugly things happen every day overall on to world to us. > people are assholes, aren't them? > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 17:50:02 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:50:02 -0600 Subject: Updates to partial list of double height Q-bus boards Message-ID: Have a lot more to be added later when I find them like the RXV21, etc. A few boards have a broken purple plastic handle and I can take $5 off if anyone wants them. M3106 DZQ11 $35 M3107 DHQ11 40 M7090 35 M7195-FA MXV11 125 M7270 11/03 CPU 45 M7504 DEQNA 35 M7546 TK50 25 M7552 RRD50 was listed as 7952- thanks for pointint it out M7555 RQDX3 60 could be more typos M7559 TQK70 50 M7651 DRV11-WA125 M7740 RC25? M7818 90 M7940 DLV11 20 M7941 DRV11 100 M7944 MSV11-B 20 M7946 RXV11 45 M7949 LAV11 30 M8017 50 M8028 40 M8043 DLV11-J 85 M8044 MSV11-DD25 M8047-AA 100 M8047-CA 150 M8059 65 M8186 11/23 CPU 100 M8192 11/73 CPU 150 Option names may be off. I have some CPU?s without chip sets. $10 s/h for up to 4 boards within US. Please contact me with mail codes for overseas shipping quotes. Please contact me off list. I am working on quad boards and hope to have a list in a few weeks. Thanks, Paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 5 17:49:57 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:49:57 -0800 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:10 PM -0800 3/5/12, Rick Thornquist wrote: >Does anyone have a system that could read these tapes and dump the data (or >know someone that does)? I'd appreciate any help that you could give me on >this. Hopefully one of the people on this list that can do this will chime in. There are people here that can do this, and that I'd trust with such tapes. I'm curious, is this data that can be made publicly available? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 5 18:53:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:53:47 -0700 Subject: Updates to partial list of double height Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From Edited Option/Module List, 13-Jun-91 In article , Paul Anderson writes: > M7090 35 11/44 CIM (console interface module) > M7552 RRD50 was listed as 7952- thanks for pointint it out I don't find this on the module list > M7740 RC25? Q22 to LESI bus adapter (replaces M8654) used on disks with MSCP > M7818 90 DQ11-AA hardwired char detection & NPR cont (Where/Used: COMA) > M8017 50 -AA: DLV11-E & DLV11-EC (etch rev. D) replaces M8017, M8017-YB (Where/Used: DLV11-E, DLV11-EC) -PA: Q-bus 1 line async control w/s-box handle (Where/Used: DLVE1-SA) > M8028 40 DLV11-F, asynch interface EIA/20mA, error flags, break bit (Where/Used: 11/03) > M8047-AA 100 MXV11-AA, 4K RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, sockets for 2 24-pin 5V ROMs, is M8047-AB,-AC,-AD or -AE (Where/Used: MXV11-AA) > M8047-CA 150 MXV11-AC, 16K RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, sockets for 2 24-pin 5V ROMs, is M8047-CB,-CC,-CD,-CE or -CF (Where/Used: MXV11-AC) > M8059 65 -FA: MSV11-LF: =M8059-FC,-FF,-FH,-FJ,-FP (W/U: MSV11-LF) -FC: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Fujitsu 64K chips -FF: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Hitachi 64K chips -FH: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, NEC 64K chips -FJ: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Motorola 64K chips -FP: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Mitsubishi 64K chips -FV: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Micron 64K chips -KA: MSV11-LK: =M8059-KC,-KF,-KH,-KJ,-KP -KC: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Fujitsu 64K chips -KF: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Hitachi 64K chips -KH: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, NEC 64K chips -KJ: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Motorola 64K chips -KP: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Mitsubishi 64K chips -KV: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Micron 64K chips -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 5 19:14:41 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:14:41 -0500 Subject: Negative feedback! - Re: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F556501.6050704@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/03/12 10:09 AM, Rob wrote: > .. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... > Are you kidding? That's an automatic neg. --T From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 5 20:14:08 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 21:14:08 -0500 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> On 03/05/2012 04:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:15 PM, allison wrote: >>> Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >>> It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their >>> characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in the Elf, >>> I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say that I've >>> actually tried it, though. >> I have no difference. > I was told by the engineer who made the Quest SuperElf that he had a > problem subbing 4066s for 4016s. He was rather insistent there was a > problem. I have not tried it myself, either. My breadboard Elf and > my Quest Elf have 4016 switches. > That may be the super elf. There is one oddity of the 1802, if run at higher speeds the timing of the control signals tend to skew badly. Also like all CMOS voltages at the pins are critical. I found the 4066 to be better, it's the same as the 4016 but the series resistance of each switch is lower and the rate is can switch on or off is a bit faster. I've used both with no issue but I'm fussy about the timing and clock rates. Like any CMOS system get the ground and power well bussed and clean. It's tolerant but some parts can throw spikes when they switch that are nasty. >> that and also making sure all the wires go where they are supposed to. > Indeed. That was my problem on my Popular Electronics Elf. > Wire wrap has always looked like a bowl of pasta to me. Even my own work. >> I've built many of the COSMAC ELFs over the years and still have my wire >> wrapped original, a >> QUEST PCB version and a few more wire wrapped variants. I made a version of >> the ELF on S100. > Nice. > It's one of those CPUs that can be almost called an attractive nusance. ;) One thing I've not done yet is build a software compatible TTL or CMOS SSI version of the 1802 from the ground up. I think a 4 2901s could do th bulk of the registers and D nicely. >> I also have the EELF and ELF2000. It was a simple and very non-critical >> CPU to build up and make work. > Yep. I've built those, too. I just pulled out my Elf2K this weekend. > I need to re-do the switch plate label - somehow a drop of oil got > onto the paper and left a stain. > I like my EELF as it's the whole stack with 8x24 video board. It ended up in an old Atlantic Research RS232 line monitor box with a nice 5" monitor. So the whole result with a PS2 keyboard is very portable though for AC power only. I need to build a power supply so it can run on a 12V source as there is room for 7AH battery inside.. >> Of all the 1802 is the most interesting as it's >> not unlike the PDP-8 in that its >> simple to the extreme yet still useful. > Agreed. > > There's one thing I can do on my Elf2000 that I still can't do on a > PDP-8... play Zork. > But consider this it was lunar lander and a few other games on PDP8 ( or PDP12) that got the games thing going. Having played lunar lander with analog inputs on a vector monitor, I can say it's fun. Allison From rickthornquist at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 20:40:27 2012 From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 18:40:27 -0800 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes Message-ID: All - Wow, you guys are great - I already have someone who kindly volunteered to dump the tapes for me. We're going to give it a try tomorrow. Pontus, I'm in Seattle right now and the volunteer is quite close to where I am. I'm not sure of the tape density - the label don't say and I'm not really a 9 track tape guy (my realm is pretty much microcomputers). Zane, if I can get the data off, and it's worth something, I'll likely bundle it on a DVD with the book. - Rick From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 5 21:04:40 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 19:04:40 -0800 Subject: Wire-wrap (was Re: Cosmac Elf on breadboard) In-Reply-To: <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F557EC8.8050106@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > Wire wrap has always looked like a bowl of pasta to me. Even my own > work. In my experience, if a wire-wrapped board looks neat, it probably won't work. Neat wire-wrapped board tend to have lots of parallel wires, which can cause problems. Rat's-nest style generally works well. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 21:14:40 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 19:14:40 -0800 Subject: Goofy Honeywell film from 1968 In-Reply-To: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F558120.206@gmail.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzzc9JwLZY8 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 5 22:36:50 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 20:36:50 -0800 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:40 PM -0800 3/5/12, Rick Thornquist wrote: >Pontus, I'm in Seattle right now and the volunteer is quite close to where >I am. I'm not sure of the tape density - the label don't say and I'm not >really a 9 track tape guy (my realm is pretty much microcomputers). I think we now know who is going to be reading it. ;-) They're one of my top three choices. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From kfergason at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 22:53:15 2012 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:53:15 -0600 Subject: programmer for 8755 Message-ID: Can anyone point me to a reasonably priced programmer for the 8755? Lots of programmers but none seem to program this chip. The one I have found is pretty expensive, as in out of my range ( a couple of Elnec at $1k and more). Was the 8755 that different? Thanks in advance, Kelly From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 23:10:37 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 23:10:37 -0600 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois Message-ID: Thanks to the recent adoption of yet-another-DEC-halfrack, a DEC SA600 rack needs to go. Here are some pics: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/DECSA600Rack The cable frame and the SDI cables on it are no longer here. It's a bit of an odd rack, having held the massive RA90 hard drives in its previous life. I believe once those brackets are removed, normal rack holes remain, but I can't be certain. As seen in the pics, I cleaned it of most of its rust and it looks pretty good. Purists will want to repaint it. Local pickup only in the NW Chicago suburbs. It's about 5' high and weighs a lot more than it looks like it should. Be prepared for a battle getting it up the stairs. -j From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 5 23:12:43 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Rick Thornquist wrote: > All - > > Wow, you guys are great - I already have someone who kindly volunteered to > dump the tapes for me. We're going to give it a try tomorrow. > > Pontus, I'm in Seattle right now and the volunteer is quite close to where > I am. I'm not sure of the tape density - the label don't say and I'm not > really a 9 track tape guy (my realm is pretty much microcomputers). > > Zane, if I can get the data off, and it's worth something, I'll likely > bundle it on a DVD with the book. When do you expect the book to be out? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 23:26:56 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 23:26:56 -0600 Subject: Updates to partial list of double height Q-bus boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Richard, I have a bunch of Edited Option lists, but haven't found them yet. Paul On 3/5/12, Richard wrote: > > From Edited Option/Module List, 13-Jun-91 > > In article > , > Paul Anderson writes: > >> M7090 35 > > 11/44 CIM (console interface module) > >> M7552 RRD50 was listed as 7952- thanks for pointint it out > > I don't find this on the module list > >> M7740 RC25? > > Q22 to LESI bus adapter (replaces M8654) used on disks with MSCP > >> M7818 90 > > DQ11-AA hardwired char detection & NPR cont > (Where/Used: COMA) > >> M8017 50 > > -AA: DLV11-E & DLV11-EC (etch rev. D) replaces M8017, M8017-YB > (Where/Used: DLV11-E, DLV11-EC) > -PA: Q-bus 1 line async control w/s-box handle > (Where/Used: DLVE1-SA) > >> M8028 40 > > DLV11-F, asynch interface EIA/20mA, error flags, break bit > (Where/Used: 11/03) > >> M8047-AA 100 > > MXV11-AA, 4K RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, sockets for 2 24-pin 5V ROMs, is > M8047-AB,-AC,-AD or -AE > (Where/Used: MXV11-AA) > >> M8047-CA 150 > > MXV11-AC, 16K RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, sockets for 2 24-pin 5V ROMs, is > M8047-CB,-CC,-CD,-CE or -CF > (Where/Used: MXV11-AC) > >> M8059 65 > > -FA: MSV11-LF: =M8059-FC,-FF,-FH,-FJ,-FP (W/U: MSV11-LF) > -FC: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Fujitsu 64K chips > -FF: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Hitachi 64K chips > -FH: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, NEC 64K chips > -FJ: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Motorola 64K chips > -FP: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Mitsubishi 64K chips > -FV: CSR 64K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Micron 64K chips > -KA: MSV11-LK: =M8059-KC,-KF,-KH,-KJ,-KP > -KC: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Fujitsu 64K chips > -KF: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Hitachi 64K chips > -KH: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, NEC 64K chips > -KJ: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Motorola 64K chips > -KP: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Mitsubishi 64K chips > -KV: CSR 128K 18bit MOS RAM, single voltage, Micron 64K chips > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 5 23:31:11 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:31:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP calculators Message-ID: Does anyone here collect HP calculators? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 23:36:15 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:36:15 -0800 Subject: programmer for 8755 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Is it a 8755 or a 8755A. They program differently. Someplace in one of the Intel books there is programming instructions. It didn't program like a 2716 if that is what your asking. Still one could wire wrap something that would work, using the printer port of a PC. Dwight > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:53:15 -0600 > Subject: programmer for 8755 > From: kfergason at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Can anyone point me to a reasonably priced programmer for the 8755? > Lots of programmers but none seem to program this chip. > The one I have found is pretty expensive, as in out of my range ( a > couple of Elnec at $1k and more). > > Was the 8755 that different? > > Thanks in advance, > > Kelly From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 5 23:37:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 00:37:40 -0500 Subject: programmer for 8755 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F55A2A4.5040204@neurotica.com> On 03/05/2012 11:53 PM, Kelly Fergason wrote: > Can anyone point me to a reasonably priced programmer for the 8755? > Lots of programmers but none seem to program this chip. > The one I have found is pretty expensive, as in out of my range ( a > couple of Elnec at $1k and more). If you run out of options for getting a programmer of your own and are in a pinch, I'm happy to burn 8755s for you here. > Was the 8755 that different? It was not my impression that it was, no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 5 23:42:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 00:42:52 -0500 Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F55A3DC.5080908@neurotica.com> On 03/06/2012 12:31 AM, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? Yes! I adore them. I don't have a list of mine at the moment; I should take a break and type one up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 23:43:13 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:43:13 -0800 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F55217C.1080208@bitsavers.org> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca>, , <20120305115316.V81710@shell.lmi.net>, <4F55217C.1080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi I read one of them. There were enough going out to schools the create a user group. I'd have loved to tinker with one when I was in school. They were really slow though. I'd have thought they'd need to be faster to control a missle. For the time, anything that could compute was cool. I wonder how many working ones are left. Even if it did,'t have the drum unit. That could easily be replaced with something else to provide the same function. Dwight > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:26:36 -0800 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: Minuteman Computer > > On 3/5/12 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > (Or just the guidance system? and the other components are permitted?) > > > > As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one > time occurrence. The history is completely documented on the scanned material > from the Minuteman User's Group documents on bitsavers. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17/ > > I would appreciate it if people would READ it before saying anything more on > this subject. > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 23:55:54 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:55:54 -0800 Subject: Johnson Motor In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi I'm using hot mail and I just saw an advertisement for a book that tells one how to make what is called a Johnson Motor ( one of the perpetual scams of a few years back ). I guess hotmail is willing to take ads from anyone that is willing to pay for it. As PT Barnum was said to have said. "It is a crime to let a sucker leave with money still in his pocket" ( or at least something like that ). The book sells for $45. I bet there is at least 1000 people that buy one. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 6 00:21:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:21:08 -0800 Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F55ACD4.8050604@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? Yes, and reverse-engineer them and write microcode-level simulators for them. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 00:31:33 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:31:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Johnson Motor In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm using hot mail and I just saw an advertisement for a book that tells > one how to make what is called a Johnson Motor ( one of the perpetual > scams of a few years back ). I guess hotmail is willing to take ads from > anyone that is willing to pay for it. As PT Barnum was said to have > said. "It is a crime to let a sucker leave with money still in his > pocket" ( or at least something like that ). The book sells for $45. I > bet there is at least 1000 people that buy one. Dwight There seems to be a lot of stuff going by the name of "Johnson Motor". The first hit on Google is a company that manufactures perfectly ordinary electric motors. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Mar 6 00:59:57 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:59:57 -0800 Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: <4F55ACD4.8050604@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <93AD240AC18.00000FADn0body.h0me@inbox.com> I have a few, some actually work! 11c - Purchased *new* the year it came out 16c - Replaced one that was *stolen* in 1986 41C (broke) 41CV (broken case) 45 - Purchased at TRW in 1985 97 - Thrift store find, c.1999 I used to have a 31E that I got when I went away to college in 1979. It had the best keypad of any calculator I ever owned, bar none. I also had a 35, but I dunno what happened to it. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: eric at brouhaha.com > Sent: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:21:08 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: HP calculators > > David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? > > Yes, and reverse-engineer them and write microcode-level simulators for > them. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From pinball at telus.net Mon Mar 5 11:56:27 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:56:27 -0800 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F54FE4B.1070904@telus.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:09 PM +0000 3/5/12, Rob wrote: >> Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... > > Let's see, they put it up on eBay, you had the winning bid, there is a > good chance that they decided it wasn't worth the effort of packing it > for the amount you won it for, and they threw it out. Yeah, I'd say > you'd be justified. > > Zane > > > Certainly that deserves a negative (and the rant is justified). I've sold stuff on eBay for $0.01 and shipped out even though loosing money. If you put something up for auction you take the offer or you put a reserve at the minimum you will accept for your trouble. They can't not ship if you played by their rules. John :-#(# From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Mar 5 12:26:38 2012 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 10:26:38 -0800 Subject: Anyone Having Problems With CHD's RX01 Emulator and Ubuntu 11.10? Message-ID: <200AF799-973C-4E82-9AA9-1C4184B43B54@sfu.ca> A short update on this problem: Further info, I am going to try to unload the kernel's "lp" and "parport" drivers to see if they are interfering with the emulator's access to the parallel port. "lsmod" shows them loaded, I recall that I can "rmmod" them (or some similarly-named command). I am not a native Linux person, BSD is much to my preference! This was necessary for proper operation of a JTAG programmer that I was using to "unbrick" a dead router a few months ago. Ubuntu's (Debian's) "lp" drivers interfered with the utility's manipulation of the parallel port signals when talking to the router's JTAG port. I am hoping that this will be a similar situation. I'm going to try it when I get home from work. Kevin Message: 6 Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 19:19:47 -0800 From: Kevin McQuiggin To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Anyone Having Problems With CHD's RX01 Emulator and Ubuntu 11.10? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hi All: Since my upgrade to Ubuntu 11.10, the excellent RX01 emulator from Charles Dickman that i have been using on my pdp-11 11/34 has stopped working. This interfaces to a PC using the PC's parallel port. I gather from the rather confusing mass of Ubuntu support information that several parallel port printers stopped working and failed to be recognized after an upgrade to 11.10. I have checked some of the fixes quoted but they don't apply to my installation. Anyone else have this problem? I can downgrade my Ubuntu to an earlier version, but if there's someone else who has solved this problem, I therefore thought I'd ask on the list first! Thanks in advance for any info, Kevin Sent from my iPad From pinball at telus.net Mon Mar 5 16:29:49 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:29:49 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F553E5D.5040203@telus.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >> To guess, I know of one common issue with hand-made 1802 designs - >> the 4016 and 4066 are not 100% interchangable. They have different >> switch response characteristics. ISTR the older designs used 4016 >> switches which are harder to find now than 4066 switches. > It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their > characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in > the Elf, I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say > that I've actually tried it, though. > According to Don Lancaster's CMOS Cookbook the 4066 "This is an improved version of the 4016, having a lower on resistance. However, the 4016 remains a better choice for ultralow-leakage applications such as sample-held circuits." John :-#)# >> If not that, then the other issue to investigate is to ensure that >> the input button is debounced > Yes, that is quite important. > > From alkopop79 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 18:50:03 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 00:50:03 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks! Every answer has been very useful! I spent days trying to figure out what went wrong. I rebuilt and rewired the entire input and output section, tested every IC on a separate breadboard, check voltages with multimeter on vcc and ground pins, measured signal with an oscilloscope and it still doesn't work. These are the symptoms: - the 4016 work when the ENABLE pins are high (tied to a voltage source) yet they don't let anything go through when wired to the control circuit - the HP hex displays work perfectly except the control circuit never sends logic low signal. When the LATCH ENABLE pin is low, the display shows whatever comes from the bus. When wired to the ground, the display happily updates its content when I poke random bus wires. I tested the hex displays (four actually) separately, they work fine. Therefor the trouble is somewhere in the control circuit. The 4013 and the 4023 seem to be the culprits. On 5 March 2012 21:48, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:15 PM, allison wrote: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: > >> It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their > >> characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in the > Elf, > >> I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say that I've > >> actually tried it, though. > > > > I have no difference. > > I was told by the engineer who made the Quest SuperElf that he had a > problem subbing 4066s for 4016s. He was rather insistent there was a > problem. I have not tried it myself, either. My breadboard Elf and > my Quest Elf have 4016 switches. > > > that and also making sure all the wires go where they are supposed to. > > Indeed. That was my problem on my Popular Electronics Elf. > > > I've built many of the COSMAC ELFs over the years and still have my wire > > wrapped original, a > > QUEST PCB version and a few more wire wrapped variants. I made a version > of > > the ELF on S100. > > Nice. > > > I also have the EELF and ELF2000. It was a simple and very non-critical > > CPU to build up and make work. > > Yep. I've built those, too. I just pulled out my Elf2K this weekend. > I need to re-do the switch plate label - somehow a drop of oil got > onto the paper and left a stain. > > > Of all the 1802 is the most interesting as it's > > not unlike the PDP-8 in that its > > simple to the extreme yet still useful. > > Agreed. > > There's one thing I can do on my Elf2000 that I still can't do on a > PDP-8... play Zork. > > -ethan > > From alkopop79 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 18:55:37 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 00:55:37 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for the schematics, amazing! On 5 March 2012 09:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Mar 2, at 6:08 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been trying to >> build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input section. Please >> let me know if you have built one! Thanks >> > > I was refurbishing a school-project implementation from the 70's (not mine > originally) just last summer. > > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/**e/cosmacElf/index.html > > There's a re-organised version of the schematic there. > > I wasn't familiar with it in depth before this, although I remember it > from the Pop Electronics article in the 70's. Kinda cute for its simplicity. > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 01:06:31 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 23:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: <4F55ACD4.8050604@brouhaha.com> References: <4F55ACD4.8050604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> Does anyone here collect HP calculators? > > Yes, and reverse-engineer them and write microcode-level simulators for them. Have you seen the wp34s? See http://sourceforge.net/projects/wp34s/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 6 01:25:23 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:25:23 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 11:10:37PM -0600, Jason T wrote: > its previous life. I believe once those brackets are removed, normal > rack holes remain, but I can't be certain. As seen in the pics, I Yes, they are normal rack holes. I keep an RL02 drive in mine (and a microvax 3800, but with a rather improvised wooden mount :) It's not _that_ heavy and few U smaller than an H960 /P From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Mar 6 01:56:37 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 07:56:37 +0000 Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: <93AD240AC18.00000FADn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <93AD240AC18.00000FADn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <20f682c2-a2d0-4417-9d7c-44ce5b29c8c5@email.android.com> The National Museum of Computing, Bletchley Park, UK, has a decent number in its collection. -- Colin N0body H0me wrote: I have a few, some actually work! 11c - Purchased *new* the year it came out 16c - Replaced one that was *stolen* in 1986 41C (broke) 41CV (broken case) 45 - Purchased at TRW in 1985 97 - Thrift store find, c.1999 I used to have a 31E that I got when I went away to college in 1979. It had the best keypad of any calculator I ever owned, bar none. I also had a 35, but I dunno what happened to it. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: eric at brouhaha.com > Sent: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:21:08 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: HP calculators > > David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? > > Yes, and reverse-engineer them and write microcode-level simulators for > them. _____________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 6 02:25:37 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 00:25:37 -0800 Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Mar 5, at 9:31 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? I collect calculators in general, so inevitably have a few HPs. 21 (purchased new in 1976) 38C 9815 9825 (*2) I'm kind of surprised I haven't run across more of the pocket calcs over the years. From cb at kryoflux.com Tue Mar 6 02:30:32 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 09:30:32 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F55CB28.7070608@kryoflux.com> Hi Tony, > I beleive that for the Diskferret I can get sources for everything (of > course soembody might write closed-source softwre to work with it). For > your device, which parts can I get the soruce for, and which can I not > get it for? Are there any file formats involved that are not fully > docuemtned? You get the schematics for the hardware (PDF) and you get the software (binary). Both are free for private, non-commercial usage. You also have access to our own formats, STREAM (as documentation) and IPF (storing the mastering data, created by us; comes as fully documented source and you have the forums with more information as well). That means you have full control over the data you ingested. > No, I think you misunderstood me here. I was talking aobut modifying > the hardware to talk to other types of drives, other devices even. Not > hadnling unusual ewncoding schems on devices (such as flopy drives) > that are supported by the hardware. You can of course modify the hardware you built, or ours, as needed, as you will know where the signals go to. You would however need to work with us, to make us support the new formats. Nevertheless this would mean going beyond what it does now and what it was designed for. > That is correct (well, actually, I can't be sure becuase I don;t know who > is in yor organisation)/ You would for sure have noticed, as the team working on KryoFlux is pretty small (Istv?n, Kieron, two porters (Adam, Alex), me). I still hold on to my opinion that if someone does not know someone else, how can he make statements about them or their work ethic? > That is not what I am doing at all. I feel that money is not a motivator > at all (or at beast a very minor motivator) for good programmers and > designers. And thus that there's no correlation between whether or not > something costs money and how well-designed it is. I interpretted your > original message as implying that you clained your device was better than > the Diskferret becuase it was commercial amd you employed commerical > progrmmers. My ecperience suggests that is faulty reasoning. Then why do people get paid in their daytime job? I do like my daytime job, I get paid for it. But how could I afford leaving it for a week, working for free, to make something happen? This has grown beyond a hobby. We already support the formats we ever needed or wanted. We do enjoy doing this, but I don't see why I would assign someone to reverse and implement a format (take Emulator I+II for example), which takes a lot of expertise and manpower, to e.g. support a commercial studio that wants to recover sampling data from their old floppies. These people pay for the unpaid leave from daytime work, we make it happen, and private users enjoy the updates they get for free. I see no evil in this. > I fail to see how an open-source program cna be discontinmued. Ok, let's call it stalled then. I've "heard" the following pretty often: "Look, there's only one main developer, and he's so busy. Maybe if you would donate..?". I think it's really overestimated how many people would have the knowledge to continue with such a project. And how many of them would want to work on this? There aren't many floppy controller projects around apparently. Does that ring a bell? > Does this design inovle any programmed parts (microcontrollers, FPGAs, > etc)? If so, do you relase the code that goes into them? If not, then > presuambly I buy them from you, and toy do 'make a cent from me'. We don't have any. KryoFlux is so versatile and simple by design that all the magic happens in the microcontroller. The firmware is uploaded into RAM each time you use it, you don't even notice. It's included with the software distribution as a firmware.bin. No flashing needed. > > That is preceisely what I don't want or need. I want the information to > solve the problems myself. The reason is simple, you (and your company) > will not be around for ever, waht happens when I have problems in 10 > years time? If this was the case you'd have to write your own software for the board you have, but maybe USB would also not be around anymore to attach the board. I can't look into the future, but you would still be able to access the data ingested because the formats are documented. What I can say is that we don't have plans to let it fade into oblivion, so my understandig is that should we ever decide to not continue with the project, we'd pass it on and / or open it up or even make the latter happen before. We just don't have any intentions doing this now as this would discourage those that can help funding it. We're obviously not as exposed as a top notch browser or similar that would get large donations from companies, financially, or by assigning engineers to it. As a sidenote: Even if you only had the binary and some STREAM dumps in the future, you could still decide to run it in emulation, like I do today for my Amiga stuff. Why you would want to do this: KryoFlux has a hardware independent, deviceless mode. It is able to "replay" any STREAM file and treat it like the data was coming in from the hardware this very moment. Because of this you can always use the software to transform any STREAM dump to a sector dump of your choice. > >> > Again, you never worked with us. How insulted would you feel if someone >> > judged about you in public, without ever having worked with you? > It happens all the tiem, I can assure you... That's sad but I don't see how this could be my or our fault. > Now, let me ask some spcific questions beased on statements that have > been made on this list and which you have not commetned on : > > 1) Did you use a 74HC244 buffer is the receiver for the drive cable. Did > you then cause Phil (I think) to be thrown off a forum/facebook group > when he commented on this? If you browse the net, you will find many comments on KryoFlux by Phil and maybe none on his solution by me/us. We really try to avoid this.The reason is we don't comment on competitive products as, being professional or not, your view is always biased to some extent. I call doing so bad style. I believe in word of mouth and others doing the comparison. If you'd come to my house and you continuously make fancy statements and suggest things (and have done so in other places in the past) it might happen you get thrown out for not behaving politely. We therefore make use of our householder's rights as needed. This also applies to our Facebook wall. > 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of interests' if > somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the Diskferret? Suggestions like that (the original statement, not your question here) would you get thrown out of my house for sure. Why would any large, big, mighty institution be hindered by us to look at a competitive product? Why would they let us hinder them? If they could get something better that would be completely free, why would they want to take the solution that needs to be paid for? How could I stop them from using publically available sources? This makes no sense. It really helps looking at this from their point of view. I did not comment on this (and other statements) because I was under the impression that such a statement speaks for itself. From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Mar 6 03:28:36 2012 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:28:36 +1100 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006101ccfb7b$8261abd0$87250370$@on.net> I see the eBay seller is getting plenty of stick and rightfully so. Give 'em a bad plug I say. But here's a very positive 99c eBay experience. I have thing for black IBM's and won an AS/400 for 99c (I now have three of the monoliths :-) - went down to pick it up, paid the guy and he also gave me another IBM desktop PC (in very good condition) he was going to toss. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2012 02:09 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: old == worthless. Bl@@dy ebay sellers... I bid on, and won, a Tandata TD4000, complete with what looks like a matching branded monitor. Cost me the grand sum of 99 pence - nobody else wanted it. Called yesterday to arrange collection, got "oh, we got it out for you and it looks like it was broken when we moved house". How broken? "a crack, and there's a cable missing." told them no worries, would still have it, should be able to fix it. "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go check if it was still about, I did still want it! Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all been taken away this morning.." Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! The problem is, old == worthless, and if it's worthless (reinforced by it selling for almost nothing, even though that's all they asked for) then it doesn't matter. OK, it's not like it was a set of backup discs from Prestel itself, just a terminal to access it, but it's still galling. (The other, I'd drive to the other end of the country to kick down their door if I thought it would put me on the trail of them!) Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 6 03:57:17 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 04:57:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F55CB28.7070608@kryoflux.com> References: <4F55CB28.7070608@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That is not what I am doing at all. I feel that money is not a >> motivator at all (or at beast a very minor motivator) for good >> programmers and designers. And thus that there's no correlation >> between whether or not something costs money and how well-designed >> it is. I interpretted your original message as implying that you >> clained your device was better than the Diskferret becuase it was >> commercial amd you employed commerical progrmmers. My ecperience >> suggests that is faulty reasoning. I'm not tony. But... > Then why do people get paid in their daytime job? [...] ...I think you raise a point here that deserves addressing. As I remarked upthread to tony, I think money is weak-to-zero motivation to write good code instead of crappy code, at least for top-of-the-line people. (Or lay out boards, or whatever - I'm using writing code as a convenient proxy for all the creative endeavours in question.) Money _is_ - or at least can be - a motivator to write code instead of bicycling along the seashore or folding a nice piece of origami or what-have-you. It is also a motivator to write code for a product instead of writing code for something else. This is one reason commercial products exist for a lot of things no gratuit-&-libre alternative exists for. However, none of this invalidates tony's argument that when a gratuit-&-libre `product' _does_ exist, thinking that its commercial competitor must be better because it's got money behind it is a fallacy. As a side note, I'd also point out that contrasting "gratuit-&-libre software" with "software written for pay" is a false dichotomy; there are people who are paid to write gratuit-&-libre software. (There are also people who write closed software unpaid, though not that many these days.) > I do like my daytime job, I get paid for it. But how could I afford > leaving it for a week, working for free, to make something happen? I don't know. Perhaps _you_ can't. But people regularly do build things for no direct pay as a side-line, either while working for pay or while between for-pay jobs. I, for example, worked for the second half of '02 at a job that paid well enough I lived on the resulting money for all of '03, which time I spent, in large part, creating software to give away because I felt like it. >> [...] you (and your company) will not be around for ever, waht >> happens when I have problems in 10 years time? > If this was the case you'd have to write your own software for the > board you have, but maybe USB would also not be around anymore to > attach the board. I - and, I suspect, tony - would say that's a good reason to use something other than USB as an interface. It's a large part of the reason I am unhappy depending on USB for anything: it is complex enough, and ill-documented enough (are the specs even available without substantial payment and an NDA? I've never looked) that, once now-common chips that implement it are no longer available, USB devices will become basically useless. Contrast to, say, a serial line: I can build a serial interface, over any host connection that gives me at least (say) two general-purpose output bits and one input bit, out of discrete logic, individual transistors if necessary. > What I can say is that we don't have plans to let it fade into > oblivion, Neither did the people behind most of today's now-undocumented vintage hardware, back when it was being made. >> 1) Did you use a 74HC244 buffer is the receiver for the drive cable. >> Did you then cause Phil (I think) to be thrown off a forum/facebook >> group when he commented on this? > If you'd come to my house and you continuously make fancy statements > and suggest things (and have done so in other places in the past) it > might happen you get thrown out for not behaving politely. Indeed. Was it lack of politesse, though, or was it criticism? There is a very important difference. (I haven't seen any of the text in question, so I don't know whether it was a questino of politeness. But my experience has also been that honest technical criticism (and pointing out a choice to use inappropriate line drivers/receivers is that, even if it is also rude) usually is not impolite. The rabid flamers generally don't have valid technical points. Silence your honest critics (as opposed to flamers) and you will rapdily find yourself surrounded by content-free syncophanty...and a rapidly dwindling user base. >> 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of >> interests' if somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the >> Diskferret? > Suggestions like that (the original statement, not your question > here) would you get thrown out of my house for sure. I...see. > Why would any large, big, mighty institution be hindered by us to > look at a competitive product? Why would they let us hinder them? Perhaps they wouldn't. But if you consider it a conflict, and I have seen companies take very similar stances often enough, then they would have to choose between the two of you. (As a simple example of such a conflict, it is extremely hard to find a restaurant, at least around here, that serves products of both PepsiCo and Coca-Cola - the only explanation I have heard suggested is that, in order for either to be willing to sell to a restaurant, it has to agree to not deal with the other.) A "large, big, mighty" institution probably would not be hindered. But, as small as you may be, you are significantly larger than, say, an individual developer; I know that if I were interested in developing for both and you saw that as unacceptable, I would be in no position to challenge it. (Nor would I want to, but that's me.) > If they could get something better that would be completely free, why > would they want to take the solution that needs to be paid for? There are at least two answers to that: (1) "better" is not a single-valued spectrum; thing A may be better in some ways, for some users and/or tasks, and thing B may be better in other ways; and (2) there is a mindset that prefers commercial products over gratuit-&-libre competitors simply because they are commercial. I do not understand it; my view generally is "costs more, less flexible, worse support, what's to like?". Yet people persist in going with the commercial products. I've never found it explained in a way I can even understand, much less agree with. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 6 07:48:22 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:48:22 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F55CB28.7070608@kryoflux.com> <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F5615A6.1090304@philpem.me.uk> On 06/03/12 09:57, Mouse wrote: > I - and, I suspect, tony - would say that's a good reason to use > something other than USB as an interface. It's a large part of the > reason I am unhappy depending on USB for anything: it is complex > enough, and ill-documented enough (are the specs even available without > substantial payment and an NDA? I've never looked) The full specification from PHY level to application layer is open. The only thing you have to pay for is a Vendor ID allocation. Or if you want to use the "trident" logo, you have to pay for a Trademark License and do qualification testing. In practice? Few pieces of equipment actually use the logo; most either use the text "USB" (which AIUI isn't trademarked), or just leave the port unlabelled. USB has reached a point of ubiquity such that you can point to the rectangular USB socket on a PC, ask any PC user what it is, and they'll say... "It's a USB port!" > that, once > now-common chips that implement it are no longer available, USB devices > will become basically useless. The standard is open. You can implement a USB2.0 Full Speed (not High Speed 480Mbps -- 12Mbps or 1.1Mbps) host adapter on an FPGA without too much effort. EHCI, UHCI and OHCI are all documented (EHCI is the I/O interface for USB2 HAs, UHCI and OHCI cover USB1.1) and standardised. Sure it's more difficult than RS232 but it can be done. And if you want RS232 from a Discferret? See that UART port? :) Swap the communication code for an RS232 implementation. You can probably keep HandleEvent() as is. The only reason it hasn't been implemented is because it'd be so slow as to be unusable. If there's sufficient demand, I'll implement it. >>> 1) Did you use a 74HC244 buffer is the receiver for the drive cable. >>> Did you then cause Phil (I think) to be thrown off a forum/facebook >>> group when he commented on this? >> If you'd come to my house and you continuously make fancy statements >> and suggest things (and have done so in other places in the past) it >> might happen you get thrown out for not behaving politely. > > Indeed. Was it lack of politesse, though, or was it criticism? There > is a very important difference. It was a question. Professional curiosity. I asked why they'd used what appeared to be a totem-pole driver IC, when every floppy drive I'm aware of uses open-collector I/O. I'm not going to start on the ESD susceptibility of HCTTL, but I've seen HC244s go into destructive latch-up when subjected to relatively minor ESD spikes. They need snubber diodes and series resistors if you're going to use them like this. I don't like yes-men. I'd rather someone tell me I'd made a mistake if they spot it... Constructive criticism is fine, and that's how a lot of potential DiscFerret bugs were detected and fixed in early development. DiscFerret has had two hardware bugs -- one was a missing resistor (easily added) on R1 and R2 boards and the other was a missing power track on R2 boards (caused by the PCB fab ignoring my specifications). > not understand it; my view generally is "costs more, less flexible, > worse support, what's to like?". Yet people persist in going with the > commercial products. I've never found it explained in a way I can even > understand, much less agree with. "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 6 08:10:41 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 06:10:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <006101ccfb7b$8261abd0$87250370$@on.net> from Kevin Parker at "Mar 6, 12 08:28:36 pm" Message-ID: <201203061410.q26EAfVK12714118@floodgap.com> > I have thing for black IBM's and won an AS/400 for 99c ... !!!!!! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Enfield Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide -- From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Mar 6 08:21:41 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:21:41 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <201203061410.q26EAfVK12714118@floodgap.com> References: <006101ccfb7b$8261abd0$87250370$@on.net> <201203061410.q26EAfVK12714118@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6 March 2012 14:10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I have thing for black IBM's and won an AS/400 for 99c > > ... !!!!!! seconded..! Thanks for all the comments - never had to leave a neg before, but yes I think it's deserved. So I have... I've got a regular search set up on eBay that emails me if anything relevant pops up, (and usually a few things that are not - you'd not think so many items would have V23 in them) so should spot if it reappears... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 09:06:22 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:06:22 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 2:25 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 11:10:37PM -0600, Jason T wrote: >> its previous life. ?I believe once those brackets are removed, normal >> rack holes remain, but I can't be certain. ?As seen in the pics, I > > Yes, they are normal rack holes. I keep an RL02 drive in mine (and a > microvax 3800, but with a rather improvised wooden mount :) Interesting re-use. > It's not _that_ heavy and few U smaller than an H960 An empty H960 is still pretty heavy, but I did manage to get one up the stairs solo once. Won't be doing that again. :-) If I needed a rack, it looks like a nice one for a non-workshop/non-datacenter installation. I had to wedge that same H-960 into a commercial basement in a 1900s storefront (my mother rented the main floor for her typing business) and between the slope of the floor and the low ceiling, it was difficult to place the H-960. I, however, am not looking for a rack and don't know anyone else right now who is looking. For my own stuff, I'm in the middle of cleaning and loading one of the table-top sized DEC racks that used to contain a PDP-11/03 and RX01. It's about 12U (twice as tall as an RX01) and has a Formica/particleboard top. Makes a nice coffee table. -ethan From rickb at bensene.com Tue Mar 6 09:24:35 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 07:24:35 -0800 Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? http://oldcalculatormuseum.com I only collect the "desktop" machines, e.g., 9100A, 9100B, 9800-series, 46, 97, etc. I love the old HP calculators. The 9100's are one of the most elegant electronic calculators ever built in my opinion. Doing all that with just transistors, and in the compact size of the machine is simply amazing. Rick Bensene From dave12 at dunfield.com Tue Mar 6 09:33:08 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:33:08 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F5615A6.1090304@philpem.me.uk> References: , <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4F5615A6.1090304@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F562E34.31127.77B8FC@dave12.dunfield.com> > > I - and, I suspect, tony - would say that's a good reason to use > > something other than USB as an interface. It's a large part of the > > reason I am unhappy depending on USB for anything: it is complex enough, > > and ill-documented enough (are the specs even available without > > substantial payment and an NDA? I've never looked) > > The full specification from PHY level to application layer is open. The > only thing you have to pay for is a Vendor ID allocation. Or if you want > to use the "trident" logo, you have to pay for a Trademark License and do > qualification testing. > > In practice? Few pieces of equipment actually use the logo; most either > use the text "USB" (which AIUI isn't trademarked), or just leave the port > unlabelled. > > USB has reached a point of ubiquity such that you can point to the > rectangular USB socket on a PC, ask any PC user what it is, and they'll > say... "It's a USB port!" Exactly the same way that a user looking at a 36 pin contronics connector on a CP/M era machine would say "Thats a printer port". Or a 25-pin female 'D' connector on a DOS era machine would say "thats an LPT" port, or a 25-pin male 'D' connector and say "Thats a serial port". Or a 15-pin 'D' and say "thats a joystick port". Or a 5-pin DIN connector and say "thats a keyboard port" ... All of these are gone from modern PCs. Lots of "younger generation" people already don't know what a LPT port or a serial port is. They might know that some of their friends "really old" systems use a "round" keyboard or mouse connector - but they are speaking of the PS/2 connector (which is also disappearing). USB will fade - it will fade faster than parallel, serial, keyboard etc. because it's hard to talk to - as soon as something bigger-better-faster becomes mainstream, it will drop from "current" systems, and the support chips will go end-of-life shortly afterward. 5 years later, few people will know what it was, and 10+ years later it will be completely unknown (except to people like us :-). It's astounding how quickly "PC" technology is obsoleted (it's already getting hard to find IDE drives, PS/2 keyboards and mice - etc. and I still depend on systems that use these components). I wouldn't use USB for anything that I wanted to be usable 20 years in the future - I wouldn't even count on it for 10. For high-speed communications I use ethernet - much easier to talk to and lots of support. I think it has a better long-term viability. Still - it will also fade eventually (I don't think nearly as fast as USB) - If I really need to know I will be able to talk to it in the "far future" - I use serial. Hell, I can build level translators with transistors and bit-bash the serial data if I have to. > > that, once > > now-common chips that implement it are no longer available, USB devices > > will become basically useless. Absolutely! > The standard is open. You can implement a USB2.0 Full Speed (not High > Speed 480Mbps -- 12Mbps or 1.1Mbps) host adapter on an FPGA without too > much effort. EHCI, UHCI and OHCI are all documented (EHCI is the I/O > interface for USB2 HAs, UHCI and OHCI cover USB1.1) and standardised. > > Sure it's more difficult than RS232 but it can be done. Yeah, but it's a matter of cost .vs. return. Sure, if if some critical bit of historical information is stored on an ancient USB device, chances are some organization would fund the research and development needed to communicate with it. But that doesn't mean that anyone who might want to save a bit of data from an old non-functional system he found in a garage will find it worthwhile. The development to talk to USB devices from "bare metal" is substantial. > And if you want RS232 from a Discferret? See that UART port? :) > Swap the communication code for an RS232 implementation. You can > probably keep HandleEvent() as is. The only reason it hasn't been > implemented is because it'd be so slow as to be unusable. If there's > sufficient demand, I'll implement it. Why is RS-232 "unusable"? It may not be fast, but it beats the hell out of not getting the data. I've imaged many disks from native systems over a serial port. Sometimes a slow serial port - Might take a few minites, but the images were recovered. And that is often older systems that often can't go above 9600 (or if you are lucky 19200). 115k is pretty standard these days -- about 11k/second. To transfer a meg would take about 1-1/2 minites. Even if you double that for overhead - I'd wait 3 mins to get an image from a disk I really wanted. > > not understand it; my view generally is "costs more, less flexible, > > worse support, what's to like?". Yet people persist in going with the > > commercial products. I've never found it explained in a way I can even > > understand, much less agree with. Some people buy into the idea of support - sometimes it is real, sometimes it is an illusion. The idea of having a company "backing it up" appeals to them ... although I find I get much better support from individual authors whether or not they charge for their package. Another factor is that commercial products are motivated by the desire to make money - I agree that this does NOT mean they will have better code, but it usually means they are designed to appeal and "perform in the showroom". Dancing bears and beating drums - many people will base their decision on what it looks like in a first impression and how many "features" it has, not how well it was designed or will ultimately work. I've been watching this thread, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned another very good reason for a casual developer to charge a modest fee for his product/service instead of giving it away - even it he is not out to make money.... "Nothing dispells enthusiam like a small admission fee" Sometimes a small fee is the best way to filter out those who would happily avail themselves of your time but have no serious interest. Offer to email to anyone who asks and you will be flooded with requests. Offer to email to anyone who sends you $5 and the load will be far more manageable... -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 6 09:47:31 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:47:31 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120306154731.GA31073@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 10:06:22AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I, however, am not looking for a rack and don't know anyone else right > now who is looking. For my own stuff, I'm in the middle of cleaning > and loading one of the table-top sized DEC racks that used to contain > a PDP-11/03 and RX01. It's about 12U (twice as tall as an RX01) and > has a Formica/particleboard top. Makes a nice coffee table. Sounds neat, I'd like to see a picture of that, unless its to much of a hassle. Regards, Pontus. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 09:59:07 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:59:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Testing, 1, 2, 3... Message-ID: For some reason, my messages are failing to appear on the list again. If this does make it, please forgive the noise! Steve -- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 10:00:44 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:00:44 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <20120306154731.GA31073@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306154731.GA31073@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 10:06:22AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I, however, am not looking for a rack and don't know anyone else right >> now who is looking. ?For my own stuff, I'm in the middle of cleaning >> and loading one of the table-top sized DEC racks that used to contain >> a PDP-11/03 and RX01. ?It's about 12U (twice as tall as an RX01) and >> has a Formica/particleboard top. ?Makes a nice coffee table. Just refreshed my own memory - it was sold as a "PDP11V03". Having problems finding the DEC "H" number for the enclosure. It's been discussed on this list before, but I don't remember the exact part number. > Sounds neat, I'd like to see a picture of that, unless its to much of a > hassle. Not my picture: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6791&d=1317144319 (registration with vintage-computer.com is probably required) -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 10:17:46 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:17:46 +0000 Subject: Compukit UK101 Message-ID: Vexed that you didn't win mine a week ago? Or did it just go too high? A friend of mine is selling another: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230755691414 Also, he's selling an MGT Sam Coup? that he bought off me a decade and a half back: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230755730713 Lovely machine, the latter - one of the most sophisticated of the 8-bit home micros and I was sorry to see it go, but I really needed the money at the time. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 6 10:23:07 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:23:07 -0600 Subject: short DEC racks Message-ID: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> Speaking of DEC racks, What is the model number of the short rack that this 11/34 is shown mounted in? http://museum.dyne.org/index.php/File:P5182215.jpg And then just below the RL02 and above the 11/34 is a filler panel. How does that filler panel attach to the rack? I have this same rack, with 11/34 and two RL02 in it and I have the filler panel but no means to attach it to the rack. I can fabricate something but am interested in The Right Way(tm) it was done originally. There is a groved slot on the back of the filler panel that runs the entire width. It appears that this snapped onto a bracket of some sort that was bolted to the rack. Any ideas? Thanks. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 6 10:30:04 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:30:04 +0000 Subject: Testing, 1, 2, 3... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F563B8C.40409@philpem.me.uk> On 06/03/12 15:59, Steven Hirsch wrote: > For some reason, my messages are failing to appear on the list again. > > If this does make it, please forgive the noise! *fzzzt* "You're coming in loud and clear, Steve. Five by nine." :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 10:40:58 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:40:58 -0600 Subject: short DEC racks In-Reply-To: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> References: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: It looks like a H9642. The H9612 and H9613 look almost the same. Paul On 3/6/12, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Speaking of DEC racks, > > What is the model number of the short rack that this 11/34 is shown > mounted in? > > http://museum.dyne.org/index.php/File:P5182215.jpg > > And then just below the RL02 and above the 11/34 is a filler panel. > How does that filler panel attach to the rack? > > I have this same rack, with 11/34 and two RL02 in it and I have the > filler panel but no means to attach it to the rack. I can fabricate > something but am interested in The Right Way(tm) it was done originally. > > There is a groved slot on the back of the filler panel that runs the > entire width. It appears that this snapped onto a bracket of some sort > that was bolted to the rack. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From rickthornquist at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 10:59:48 2012 From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:59:48 -0800 Subject: DECsystem-20 9 Track Tapes Message-ID: David - I don't have a completion date yet - there's still lots to done. I'll let everybody know when I have a solid date. - Rick From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 6 10:17:38 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:17:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <201203061410.q26EAfVK12714118@floodgap.com> References: <201203061410.q26EAfVK12714118@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I have thing for black IBM's and won an AS/400 for 99c > > ... !!!!!! He over paid. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From rickthornquist at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 11:10:01 2012 From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:10:01 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games Message-ID: All - Since everybody has been so helpful with my previous queries, I have one more... In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). They came in large gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. Here's an example: http://yois.if-legends.org/vault.php?id=553 I've been having a heck of a time finding someone who still has these things. I'd very much like to scan the covers to use with the book. If anyone has any of these, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Also, I understand there was a version of Deadline that came with the Osborne. If anyone has this I'd like to hear from them as well. Thanks! - Rick From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 6 11:21:09 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:21:09 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. > They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the > Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). They came in > large > gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. Here's > an example: Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 6 11:26:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:26:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Mar 6, 12 08:17:38 am" Message-ID: <201203061726.q26HQiaD9633974@floodgap.com> > > > I have thing for black IBM's and won an AS/400 for 99c > > > > ... !!!!!! > > He over paid. :) Hey, I like System i! But I get more wear out of my black IBM AIX boxen. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Condense soup, not books! -------------------------------------------------- From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 6 11:32:28 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:32:28 +0100 Subject: short DEC racks In-Reply-To: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> References: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > And then just below the RL02 and above the 11/34 is a filler panel. > How does that filler panel attach to the rack? That is done via a metal strip where the small panel clicks on wit two small tabs on the sides. The metal strip is bolted onto the rack. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 6 11:52:18 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:52:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: might be landing an HP9K C8000 Message-ID: <201203061752.q26HqINu11862084@floodgap.com> I had root to K250 and L3000 PA-RISC systems back in the day (and a C3600 which the biology department used for visualization) and learned to loathe HP/sUX, but I found my pack of 11i CDs in the closet and got nostalgic for the old architecture (wonder what would have happened if Hombre had actually succeeded). I've got a line on a couple C8000 systems at what I consider to be a fair price, fully loaded. While I did a lot of work on the big iron systems, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the workstations. Anyone know any gotchas I should watch for? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 12:02:12 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:02:12 -0500 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:21 PM, wrote: >> In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. >> ?They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the >> Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). ?They came in >> large >> gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. ?Here's >> an example: I've seen those described on web pages but never held one in my hands. > Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? Here are the ISBN numbers for all the PDP-11 releases (I happened to have been doing some research last month). If you Google with these, you'll easily find descriptions in several archives... 0201123878 Zork I PDP-11 (1984) 0201123983 Zork II PDP-11 (1984) 0201124106 Zork III PDP-11 (1984) 0201124157 Suspended PDP-11 (1984) 0201124319 Starcross PDP-11 (1984) 0201124424 Planetfall PDP-11 (1984) 0201124548 Witness PDP-11 (1984) 0201124777 Infidel PDP-11 (1984) 0201125323 Seastalker PDP-11 0201124661 Deadline PDP-11 (1984) 0201124890 Enchanter PDP-11 (1984) 0201123754 Sorcerer PDP-11 (1984) I personally saw "Starcross" on the wall at the DEC store in downtown Columbus in 1984. I already owned a PDP-8 (which was why I was in the store at all, looking for any related info or materials), but a few months after I saw that game package, I landed a job where I used a PDP-11 every day (I still own that exact PDP-11 - it's set up on my basement workshop table) Unfortunately, I never have run across another instance of an Infocom package for the PDP-11. Yes, I have ZEMU. Yes, it works great. I'm still fascinated by the originals. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 12:07:15 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:07:15 -0500 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I personally saw "Starcross" on the wall at the DEC store in downtown > Columbus in 1984... My mistake... it was "Planetfall" - in a package large enough to hold an 8" floppy (so it looked unusual to a kid who was used to games on 5.25" disks). Old memory bits need refreshing from time to time. -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Mar 6 12:13:57 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:13:57 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306154731.GA31073@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4F5653E5.9030107@update.uu.se> On 03/06/2012 05:00 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6791&d=1317144319 > > (registration with vintage-computer.com is probably required) I'm already registered :) Indeed a nice coffee table! /P From alkopop79 at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 03:35:58 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:35:58 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. On 6 March 2012 02:14, allison wrote: > On 03/05/2012 04:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:15 PM, allison wrote: >> >>> Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >>>> It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their >>>> characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in the >>>> Elf, >>>> I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say that I've >>>> actually tried it, though. >>>> >>> I have no difference. >>> >> I was told by the engineer who made the Quest SuperElf that he had a >> problem subbing 4066s for 4016s. He was rather insistent there was a >> problem. I have not tried it myself, either. My breadboard Elf and >> my Quest Elf have 4016 switches. >> >> That may be the super elf. There is one oddity of the 1802, if run at > higher speeds > the timing of the control signals tend to skew badly. Also like all CMOS > voltages > at the pins are critical. I found the 4066 to be better, it's the same as > the 4016 > but the series resistance of each switch is lower and the rate is can > switch > on or off is a bit faster. I've used both with no issue but I'm fussy > about the > timing and clock rates. > > Like any CMOS system get the ground and power well bussed and clean. > It's tolerant but some parts can throw spikes when they switch that are > nasty. > > > that and also making sure all the wires go where they are supposed to. >>> >> Indeed. That was my problem on my Popular Electronics Elf. >> >> Wire wrap has always looked like a bowl of pasta to me. Even my own > work. > > > I've built many of the COSMAC ELFs over the years and still have my wire >>> wrapped original, a >>> QUEST PCB version and a few more wire wrapped variants. I made a version >>> of >>> the ELF on S100. >>> >> Nice. >> >> It's one of those CPUs that can be almost called an attractive nusance. > ;) > > One thing I've not done yet is build a software compatible TTL or CMOS SSI > version of the 1802 from the ground up. I think a 4 2901s could do th bulk > of the registers and D nicely. > > > > I also have the EELF and ELF2000. It was a simple and very non-critical >>> CPU to build up and make work. >>> >> Yep. I've built those, too. I just pulled out my Elf2K this weekend. >> I need to re-do the switch plate label - somehow a drop of oil got >> onto the paper and left a stain. >> >> I like my EELF as it's the whole stack with 8x24 video board. It ended > up in > an old Atlantic Research RS232 line monitor box with a nice 5" monitor. So > the whole result with a PS2 keyboard is very portable though for AC power > only. I need to build a power supply so it can run on a 12V source as > there > is room for 7AH battery inside.. > > > Of all the 1802 is the most interesting as it's >>> not unlike the PDP-8 in that its >>> simple to the extreme yet still useful. >>> >> Agreed. >> >> There's one thing I can do on my Elf2000 that I still can't do on a >> PDP-8... play Zork. >> >> > But consider this it was lunar lander and a few other games on PDP8 > ( or PDP12) that got the games thing going. Having played lunar lander > with analog inputs on a vector monitor, I can say it's fun. > > Allison > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Mar 6 10:41:10 2012 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:41:10 -0800 Subject: Update Re: Anyone Having Problems With CHD's RX01 Emulator and Ubuntu 11.10? Message-ID: Well, no luck on removing the lp driver et cetera under Ubuntu, so I am going to try reverting my Linux distribution, or going to NetBSD for the emulator instead. Kevin Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 10:26:38 -0800 From: Kevin McQuiggin To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone Having Problems With CHD's RX01 Emulator and Ubuntu 11.10? Message-ID: <200AF799-973C-4E82-9AA9-1C4184B43B54 at sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A short update on this problem: Further info, I am going to try to unload the kernel's "lp" and "parport" drivers to see if they are interfering with the emulator's access to the parallel port. "lsmod" shows them loaded, I recall that I can "rmmod" them (or some similarly-named command). I am not a native Linux person, BSD is much to my preference! This was necessary for proper operation of a JTAG programmer that I was using to "unbrick" a dead router a few months ago. Ubuntu's (Debian's) "lp" drivers interfered with the utility's manipulation of the parallel port signals when talking to the router's JTAG port. I am hoping that this will be a similar situation. I'm going to try it when I get home from work. Kevin From cpuser_stefskog at bredband.net Tue Mar 6 11:48:36 2012 From: cpuser_stefskog at bredband.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:48:36 +0100 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:21:09 -0800, healyzh at aracnet.com wrote: >> In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. >> They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the >> Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). They came in >> large >> gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. Here's >> an example: > > Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? > > Zane Hmm, would they work on P/OS ?? ANY GAMES for DEC Professional series ? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Mar 6 12:32:20 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 13:32:20 -0500 Subject: Compukit UK101 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <067601ccfbc7$77ee9590$67cbc0b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Liam Proven wrote: > A friend of mine is selling another: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230755691414 Hi, It's not clear from your friend's auction page, is he willing to sell/ship to the United States? Thanks, Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 12:45:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:45:01 -0500 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. Veroboard is not common in the States (I bought some from Dick Smith's the last time I was in NZ), so my choices have been wire-wrapping or point-to-point wiring occasionally using multi-pad prototyping board (some have a few bus lines, others have 2-4 adjacent holes connected). I've had no reliability problems with point-to-point using machined-pin sockets. Wire-wrap with good sockets and good wraps is quite reliable, I just prefer using less expensive sockets and having a shorter/thinner design that's often easier to pack into a project case. Wire-wrap with a "Just Wrap" tool is probably faster. I did dabble with wire-wrap as a kid in the 1970s, but any failures there were due to my inexperience not the reliability of the technology. I got good at soldering, so I switched to point-to-point and have built many successful projects that way. My Popular Electronics Elf (built in 2004) was done with point-to-point soldering, not wire-wrap, BTW. I had no joint or socket problems, and it was perfectly reliable once I identified and moved the lone wiring error. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 12:45:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:45:16 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: , <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <4F55EABC.9349.55BFD7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2012 at 9:35, Gergely L"orincz wrote: > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. Done well, they're probably about the same. You're limited by the PCB in using vero, but wire-wrap is 3-dimensional; it can be very dense indeed and lends itself to some interesting techniques, such as using twisted pair for ECL. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 6 12:53:24 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:53:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F562E34.31127.77B8FC@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F5615A6.1090304@philpem.me.uk> <4F562E34.31127.77B8FC@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <201203061853.NAA02589@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Swap the communication code for an RS232 implementation. You can >> probably keep HandleEvent() as is. The only reason it hasn't been >> implemented is because it'd be so slow as to be unusable. > Why is RS-232 "unusable"? "[S]o slow as to be unusable" seems pretty clear to me that it's because of the speed, or rather lack thereof. Of course, one person's "unusable" is another's "so I have to wait a little, big deal". I once booted a NetBSD kernel by sending S-records over a 57600 serial line. Took about twenty minutes. There are people and/or contexts for which that would be "unusable"; for me, on that occasion, it wasn't a big deal. > It may not be fast, but it beats the hell out of not getting the > data. Agreed! > "Nothing dispells enthusiam like a small admission fee" > Sometimes a small fee is the best way to filter out those who would > happily avail themselves of your time but have no serious interest. > Offer to email > to anyone who asks and you will be flooded with requests. That hasn't been my experience. Perhaps I just don't create the right things. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 13:02:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 11:02:29 -0800 Subject: Browsers for OS/2 2.1? Message-ID: <4F55EEC5.18438.658476@cclist.sydex.com> On a whim, I installed OS/2 2.1 on a P1 system last night (Hint: it helps to have a multi-boot setup with a network-capable OS on one partition--saves a lot of floppy work). I could get MS Lanman for OS/2 working okay, but then I ran into a problem--it seems that FreeTCP and most browsers for OS/2 say "Warp 3 or later". And getting a browser-suitable TCP/IP stack seems to be no small issue. IBM Web explorer seems to want Warp as well. Lanman has a TCP/IP stack of sorts, but it's undocumented and apparently used only for NetBEUI protocol. The only TCP/IP program that uses it seems to be the "ping" packaged with Lanman. Has anyone ever gotten a browser to work on 2.1 over an ethernet TCP/IP connection? If so, how? Thanks, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 13:11:20 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:11:20 -0500 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:21:09 -0800, healyzh at aracnet.com wrote: >>> In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. >>> ?They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the >>> Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). ?They came in >>> large >>> gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. ?Here's >>> an example: >> >> Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? > > Hmm, would they work on P/OS ?? Infocom's releases for the PDP-11 ran on RT-11. I know you can run RT-11 binaries under RSTS/E, but I can't remember if there was a way to do that with RSX-11 (which is what P/OS descends from). You could get RT-11 for the DECprofessional, so the hardware can do it, but I only ever used P/OS at the menu level. > ANY GAMES for DEC Professional series ? I don't remember for certain, but I don't think so, at least not packaged games that were advertised for the machine. There were often playable games that came as part of various operating systems, and, of course, written by users and shared via DECUS and Usenet and such. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 13:19:22 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:19:22 +0000 Subject: Compukit UK101 In-Reply-To: <4f565dbc.c55de50a.7a56.ffff9387SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4f565dbc.c55de50a.7a56.ffff9387SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 6 March 2012 18:32, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> A friend of mine is selling another: >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230755691414 > > Hi, > > ? It's not clear from your friend's auction page, is > ? he willing to sell/ship to the United States? > > Thanks, > Bill I don't know. Ask him! :?) Probably - he's a smart, together chap and travels a lot. I don't see it being a problem. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 13:36:44 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:36:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, healyzh at aracnet.com wrote: >> In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. >> They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the >> Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). They came in >> large >> gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. Here's >> an example: > > Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? I know they had at least Zork I. I sold a command summary card for it a while ago. I probably shouldn't have done that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 6 13:41:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:41:08 -0500 Subject: BA123 power supply, AUI cables In-Reply-To: <4F51BDAA.4000909@hawkmountain.net> References: <4F50959E.5010907@neurotica.com> <4F51BDAA.4000909@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4F566854.6010909@neurotica.com> On 03/03/2012 01:43 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I'm looking for a BA123 power supply. Anybody gots? I could also use a >> handful of short AUI cables. >> >> Thanks, >> -Dave >> > I should have some AUI cables. Think they are around 2ish feet each (by > memory). > > Finding them might be the challenge. How many are you looking for (or is > 2-3 feet > longer than what you are looking for ?) ? That'd work; I just don't need any ten-footers. :) Ideally I'd like to have three or four here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 6 14:03:15 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:03:15 -0600 Subject: short DEC racks In-Reply-To: References: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120306200315.GI22034@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (03/06/2012 at 06:32PM +0100), E. Groenenberg wrote: > > > > And then just below the RL02 and above the 11/34 is a filler panel. > > How does that filler panel attach to the rack? > > That is done via a metal strip where the small panel clicks on wit two > small tabs on the sides. The metal strip is bolted onto the rack. Ok. Thank you Ed. This is pretty much what I suspected. Would anyone have a p/n, photo, drawing or other reference to this metal strip/bracket? Or, you know, the actual bracket that we could make a deal on? :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 6 14:14:19 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:14:19 +0000 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I know they had at least Zork I. ?I sold a command summary card for it a > while ago. ?I probably shouldn't have done that. I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. It's also available to play online... on a "real" emulated PDP 11... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Mar 6 13:31:06 2012 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:31:06 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> On 05/03/12 15:09, Rob wrote: > "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go > check if it was still about, I did still want it! > > Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all > been taken away this morning.." > > Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had > sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! I'm on the verge of giving up on ebay. In the past few months I've had: - One seller cancelled my bid five minutes from the end of the auction and closed it as "item no longer available." Then sent me an extremely rude email accusing me of "wasting her time", "trying to get a valuable item for nothing" and "ripping her off". The item in question? An old Amiga software disk, sans any form of packaging... just the disk. Not even a particularly rare one either. For bonus points, they keep changing their damned user ID. - Another whackjob whom I paid ?20 for a SCSI card, then emailed me a day later to say "the postage was too low". "OK, how much does it come to?"... "total would be ?49 but I need it sending by bank transfer." I politely declined and asked for a refund.. he refused. One PayPal claim in my favour (and after screwing several other people) later... ebay NARU'd him. Good riddance. Both of these crazies are now on my block list. Except the first one keeps dropping off when she changes her damned user ID... -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 14:32:25 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:32:25 +0000 Subject: Compukit UK101 In-Reply-To: <4f567184.057f650a.3bfe.ffffcf32SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4f567184.057f650a.3bfe.ffffcf32SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 6 March 2012 18:32, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> A friend of mine is selling another: >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230755691414 > > Hi, > > ? It's not clear from your friend's auction page, is > ? he willing to sell/ship to the United States? I heard you the first time. ;?) I've forwarded your personal mail on to him. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 6 14:36:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 15:36:04 -0500 Subject: might be landing an HP9K C8000 In-Reply-To: <201203061752.q26HqINu11862084@floodgap.com> References: <201203061752.q26HqINu11862084@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F567534.1030406@neurotica.com> On 03/06/2012 12:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I had root to K250 and L3000 PA-RISC systems back in the day (and a C3600 > which the biology department used for visualization) and learned to > loathe HP/sUX, but I found my pack of 11i CDs in the closet and got nostalgic > for the old architecture (wonder what would have happened if Hombre had > actually succeeded). I've got a line on a couple C8000 systems at what I > consider to be a fair price, fully loaded. While I did a lot of work on the > big iron systems, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the workstations. > Anyone know any gotchas I should watch for? A friend of mine knows a LOT about those machines; I will put you in touch with him. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 14:39:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:39:01 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm on the verge of giving up on ebay. In the past few months I've had: > > - One seller cancelled my bid five minutes from the end of the auction > and closed it as "item no longer available." Then sent me an extremely > rude email accusing me of "wasting her time", "trying to get a valuable > item for nothing" and "ripping her off". > The item in question? An old Amiga software disk, sans any form of > packaging... just the disk. Not even a particularly rare one either. > For bonus points, they keep changing their damned user ID. And possibly the saddest part of this is that (unless there was a reserve placed), you could have bid a million dollars/pounds and she wouldn't have known, because no one else was bidding. That's just how eBay works (or doesn't, depending on your perspective). - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 13:39:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:39:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Mar 5, 12 09:31:11 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? That depends on what you mean by 'collect' :-) I personalyl don't consider myself to be a 'collector' because I don;'t try to obtain all the slightly differnet versions of each model (which may just be consmetic changes). However, I do love such machines, both handheld and (more particualrly) desktop. I certainly don't have them all, but I have a reasonalbe trange of handehlds form the HP35 to the HP49 (I don't haev many woodstock models, I dno't have either sting model, but I do have a good ssrotment of HP41 stuff (incluing a home-made 'test calcualtor' and HP71 stuff.) For the desktps I have many of them. Starting with the 9100B, then the 9810, 20 nand 30, 9815, 9825, etc. Yes, I repair them. I produce the docuemtnation to repair them. And I give talks on them at HPCC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 13:46:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:46:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: <20f682c2-a2d0-4417-9d7c-44ce5b29c8c5@email.android.com> from "Colin Eby" at Mar 6, 12 07:56:37 am Message-ID: > > The National Museum of Computing, Bletchley Park, UK, has a decent > number in its collection. There is also an active UK-based user group, HPCC (see http://wwww.hpcc.org/ for details). We hold a meeting every monthh in London (the next one is this coming Saturday), anyone here would be most welcome to come as a guest (but please let a member of the committee know if you want to come, for obvious security reasons). This group officially covers all HP hadheld machiens from the HP35 onweards. In practic we talk about lots more, incluing HP desktop calcualtors. I should perhaps add that this group has nothign to do with the NMoC or Bletchley Parkm and is not run or sponsored by HP. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 13:59:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:59:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 6, 12 00:25:37 am Message-ID: > > On 2012 Mar 5, at 9:31 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > Does anyone here collect HP calculators? > > > I collect calculators in general, so inevitably have a few HPs. > 21 (purchased new in 1976) > 38C > 9815 AFAIK that was the only RPN desktop calcualtor (the earlier 900 and 9810 machiens are sort-of stack based but IMHO since they lack auytomatic push and pop, they;'re not really RPN). It's also the only HP calculator (before the HP9000/200 seires) that used a standard CPU chip (there's a 6800 in there). > 9825 (*2) > > I'm kind of surprised I haven't run across more of the pocket calcs > over the years. Most models are not rare, but there are quite a number of people who like them, so they can sell for failry high prices. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 14:27:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:27:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F55CB28.7070608@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 6, 12 09:30:32 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, Hello... > > > I beleive that for the Diskferret I can get sources for everything (of > > course soembody might write closed-source softwre to work with it). For > > your device, which parts can I get the soruce for, and which can I not > > get it for? Are there any file formats involved that are not fully > > docuemtned? > You get the schematics for the hardware (PDF) and you get the software=20 > (binary). Both are free for private, non-commercial usage. You also have=20 OK... > access to our own formats, STREAM (as documentation) and IPF (storing=20 > the mastering data, created by us; comes as fully documented source and=20 > you have the forums with more information as well). That means you have=20 > full control over the data you ingested. However, I beleive i have to trust that the Kryofluxx + its binary-only software behaves as advertised and tha tthe data I get from it is a ture representation of the pulses on my disk. I have no way of checkign this (since I don't get the source to the program or to the microcontrolelr firmwae). > > > > No, I think you misunderstood me here. I was talking aobut modifying=20 > > the hardware to talk to other types of drives, other devices even. Not=20 > > hadnling unusual ewncoding schems on devices (such as flopy drives)=20 > > that are supported by the hardware.=20 > You can of course modify the hardware you built, or ours, as needed, as=20 Sure, but many modifications would involve a change in the microcontroller firmwre. > you will know where the signals go to. You would however need to work=20 > with us, to make us support the new formats. Nevertheless this would=20 Right... That's a major oownside for me. I want to be able to use it as _I_ want, withoug having to convice somebody else that what I want to do is a good idea. And possibly paying them to do the necessary work. > mean going beyond what it does now and what it was designed for. [... Money as motivation...] > Then why do people get paid in their daytime job? I do like my daytime=20 A lot of pople take a day job just to get money top be able to follow their interests. > job, I get paid for it. But how could I afford leaving it for a week,=20 > working for free, to make something happen? This has grown beyond a=20 > hobby. We already support the formats we ever needed or wanted. We do=20 > enjoy doing this, but I don't see why I would assign someone to reverse=20 > and implement a format (take Emulator I+II for example), which takes a=20 > lot of expertise and manpower, to e.g. support a commercial studio that=20 That is one reason wehy I wouldn't consider your device. I do think it's unreasoanble to exxpect you to do a lot of work to support some obvscure fiormat. Uut I don;t think it's unreasoanble to be able to do the work myuself. > wants to recover sampling data from their old floppies. These people pay=20 > for the unpaid leave from daytime work, we make it happen, and private=20 > users enjoy the updates they get for free. I see no evil in this. > > > > I fail to see how an open-source program cna be discontinmued. > Ok, let's call it stalled then. I've "heard" the following pretty often:=20 > "Look, there's only one main developer, and he's so busy. Maybe if you=20 It soudls like you want it both ways. On the one hand you're saying that you want ot be paid for your work (which is rewasoanble), on the otehr you exxpect open-sourcve developers to do what uou want for free. Plese tell me I've misunderstood this. VIrtually every open-sourc program (includign all those under the GPL) come with the statement that they are _NOT_ supported. You can't expect soembody to work for you for nothing. You have the soruce code, fx it yourself! I have been pleasanylu supprised by the support I get from open-source software authors, but I don't exxpect them to do work for me for nothing. I might e0-mail them a comment and/or a change I've made to do something I want to do, Or I might ask them 'what is going one here' so that I can fixx the problem. I always seem to get a helpful reply. [...] > > That is preceisely what I don't want or need. I want the information to > > solve the problems myself. The reason is simple, you (and your company) > > will not be around for ever, waht happens when I have problems in 10 > > years time? > If this was the case you'd have to write your own software for the board=20 In which casew it would be simpler to design the darn thing myself. Or to use the documented one (DIskferret). > you have, but maybe USB would also not be around anymore to attach the=20 Oh Please... You'll be tellign me next that RS232, GPIB, 20mA loop, etc 'aren't around now'. And if you look at sonsumer PCs I'd agree with you. If you look on my bench I'd not. Point is, I do not beleive there won't be a single working USB machine around in 10 years time. Moreover, I've looked at the USB specifications. I think the interfae is over-compliceted and is often not the right thing to use. I fon't think it's a bad choice here, given the volume of data to transfer. But since the spec is availavble, and I assuem somebody will stil lahve a copy in 10 years tienm or wahtever, then it would be possible to make a USB host using a then-current FPGA or whatever's replaced them. > board. I can't look into the future, but you would still be able to=20 > access the data ingested because the formats are documented. What I can=20 > say is that we don't have plans to let it fade into oblivion, so my=20 So say 99% of other ahrdware and softwre mnufacutrers about their products. Doesn't mean it doens't happen. [...] > >> > Again, you never worked with us. How insulted would you feel if som= > eone > >> > judged about you in public, without ever having worked with you? > > It happens all the tiem, I can assure you... > That's sad but I don't see how this could be my or our fault. It's not. I am not blaming you, I am simply saying it happenes and I ignore it. > > > > Now, let me ask some spcific questions beased on statements that have > > been made on this list and which you have not commetned on : > > > > 1) Did you use a 74HC244 buffer is the receiver for the drive cable. Di= > d > > you then cause Phil (I think) to be thrown off a forum/facebook group > > when he commented on this? > If you browse the net, you will find many comments on KryoFlux by Phil=20 > and maybe none on his solution by me/us. We really try to avoid this.The=20 > reason is we don't comment on competitive products as, being=20 > professional or not, your view is always biased to some extent. I call=20 > doing so bad style. I believe in word of mouth and others doing the=20 > comparison. I disagree. If there is a claer technicla point, as here, I feel a developer or a simialr product is perhaps the best to raise it. > > If you'd come to my house and you continuously make fancy statements and=20 > suggest things (and have done so in other places in the past) it might=20 > happen you get thrown out for not behaving politely. We therefore make=20 > use of our householder's rights as needed. This also applies to our=20 > Facebook wall. OK, You ahve confirmed what I thought all along. This statement speaks volumes about your attitude. To use your analony. If I fvisited your home I would not comment on your style of deoor, your furniture, ro anythign like that. But if I saw somethign that I considered to be dangerous to you, your family, or others, I certianly would comment. If I saw you had some exxpensive objects and that your door lock was a really cheap and simple one that anyone could open with a paperclip I'd tell you about that too. You bet I would. It would appear from your comments that the only sort of message you allow on your facebook page is one in favour of your product. That means the page is essentially worthless .I want a see a balanced set of comments. If soemthign is poorly doen, Iwant to know about it. I would agree that a comment like 'This product is crap' helps nobody. An explainatio of whay a particualr chip is a poor choice does. I've been on many forums and mailing lists over the years. I feel the only things that should get you thrown off are inciitng crimes (and racism, homophobia, etc) and posting wildily off-topic mesages. Not positing reasonaed criticism of the device under discussion. > > > > 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of interests' i= > f > > somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the Diskferret? > > Suggestions like that (the original statement, not your question here)=20 > would you get thrown out of my house for sure. Why would any large, big,=20 I fdeel that this attitudew is good for your bottom line now, but is not godo for data preservation in general, and it's not good for the classic computing hobby. A lot more gets done when inforation ant techniques arwe shared. Yes, you don't maek the profit, but more data is preserved. Which is more important? An analogy. Suppsoe there's a person who's worked out how to repair a certain type of classic computer. Traced out and annotted the schematics. Dissassembled the CPU microcode. Worked out how to repair the maechancia bits that wear out, And so on. Now this guy then gives away all the information he has. In so doing it means he doesn't make money doign the repairs, becuase others can do them. It means the machines are more desirable because non-workign ones can be reparied, so the price goes up, so he can't afford all the ones he wants. And yet he does htis because he feels it;s more inporant that the knowledge of how to fx them is abailable. As I said at the satt fo my first message, I couldn't use eitehr device. But you have confirmed my views on which one I would buy if I ever could use one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 14:30:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:30:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: from "=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=" at Mar 6, 12 09:35:58 am Message-ID: > > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. Wire-wrapping is certainly very reliable. But practically, for something like this, I don;t think you'd have any problems using wire=-weapping, stripboard, roadrunner tool, or any reasonable construcitonal method. If you do any of them properly it'll work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 14:35:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:35:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 6, 12 04:57:17 am Message-ID: > >> [...] you (and your company) will not be around for ever, waht > >> happens when I have problems in 10 years time? > > If this was the case you'd have to write your own software for the > > board you have, but maybe USB would also not be around anymore to > > attach the board. > > I - and, I suspect, tony - would say that's a good reason to use > something other than USB as an interface. It's a large part of the Acutally, although this is the reason I can't use either the Kryoflux or the Diskferret (I don;t have a machine with a USB port), I don't think it's a bad choice of interface in this case given the amount of data to be transferred. DOing it with somehting like RS232 (at, say 19200 baud) would take a ridiculous amount of time to transfer the pulse timings. > reason I am unhappy depending on USB for anything: it is complex > enough, and ill-documented enough (are the specs even available without > substantial payment and an NDA? I've never looked) that, once I had no problem reading an official spec on an official website for free. I didn't check, but I am pretty sure there was anough information there to build a USB host or device. -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 6 14:45:16 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:45:16 +0100 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <626bf945effc3872a8ab4209df767b2b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Would that be an image usable under SIMH? Ed > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:36 PM, David Griffith > wrote: >> I know they had at least Zork I. ?I sold a command summary card for it a >> while ago. ?I probably shouldn't have done that. > > I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. > > It's also available to play online... on a "real" emulated PDP 11... > > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > > Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 6 14:39:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:39:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 6, 12 07:24:35 am Message-ID: > I love the old HP calculators. The 9100's are one of the most elegant > electronic calculators ever built in my opinion. Doing all that with > just transistors, and in the compact size of the machine is simply > amazing. I absolutely ageee. The HP9100 is one of the most elegant devices it's ever bene my pleaser to work on. It is truely beautiful. Incidentally, the 9800 series machines are one of the few bit-seiral TTL-based desktops you're likely to find. They too are quite elegant inside, albeit using TTL chips not discrete transistros. IMHO they are a lot easier to repari than the 9100 (I've done both), and certainly a lot easier to itnerface. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 14:45:33 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 15:45:33 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F56776D.1080908@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> "but my husband has put it out to be thrown away". Told her to go >> check if it was still about, I did still want it! >> >> Got a call back today, "it was put with some old PCs and they've all >> been taken away this morning.." >> >> Would they have done the same if it had been an iPad? Or it it had >> sold for more than a pittance? I'd certainly have paid more! > > I'm on the verge of giving up on ebay. In the past few months I've had: > > - One seller cancelled my bid five minutes from the end of the auction > and closed it as "item no longer available." Then sent me an extremely > rude email accusing me of "wasting her time", "trying to get a valuable > item for nothing" and "ripping her off". > The item in question? An old Amiga software disk, sans any form of > packaging... just the disk. Not even a particularly rare one either. > For bonus points, they keep changing their damned user ID. For that, I would see if I could get their ID suspended. I would submit the email as evidence. Peace... Sridhar From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 6 14:46:53 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:46:53 +0100 Subject: short DEC racks In-Reply-To: <20120306200315.GI22034@n0jcf.net> References: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> <20120306200315.GI22034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Well, I could make a few pics tomorrow. I have 2 of these in use to cover a small space under 2 TU-80's. Ed > On Tuesday (03/06/2012 at 06:32PM +0100), E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> >> > And then just below the RL02 and above the 11/34 is a filler panel. >> > How does that filler panel attach to the rack? >> >> That is done via a metal strip where the small panel clicks on wit two >> small tabs on the sides. The metal strip is bolted onto the rack. > > Ok. Thank you Ed. This is pretty much what I suspected. > > Would anyone have a p/n, photo, drawing or other reference to this > metal strip/bracket? Or, you know, the actual bracket that we could > make a deal on? :-) > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Mar 6 14:56:49 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:56:49 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 6 March 2012 20:39, David Riley wrote: > > And possibly the saddest part of this is that (unless there was a reserve > placed), you could have bid a million dollars/pounds and she wouldn't > have known, because no one else was bidding. ?That's just how eBay works > (or doesn't, depending on your perspective). Indeed. The TD4000 that I started this thread about, I won at an uncontested opening price of ?0.99. I'd put a max bid of around ?15.00 on it, and might have gone more.. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 15:06:25 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:06:25 +0000 Subject: Fancy a Lisa? Message-ID: Same friend who is selling the SAM Coup? and the UK101 also has a Lisa for sale: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230756673113 By the way, yes, he will ship internationally, at cost. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 15:14:13 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:14:13 -0600 Subject: short DEC racks In-Reply-To: <20120306200315.GI22034@n0jcf.net> References: <20120306162307.GB22034@n0jcf.net> <20120306200315.GI22034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I have a DEC cabinet book here somewhere waiting to be found. I'll try to look for the bracket, but it's a long list right now. Going to try to make it through all the boards first and hopefully thin out the herd. Paul On 3/6/12, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (03/06/2012 at 06:32PM +0100), E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> >> > And then just below the RL02 and above the 11/34 is a filler panel. >> > How does that filler panel attach to the rack? >> >> That is done via a metal strip where the small panel clicks on wit two >> small tabs on the sides. The metal strip is bolted onto the rack. > > Ok. Thank you Ed. This is pretty much what I suspected. > > Would anyone have a p/n, photo, drawing or other reference to this > metal strip/bracket? Or, you know, the actual bracket that we could > make a deal on? :-) > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 6 15:31:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:31:23 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F56822B.1000409@neurotica.com> On 03/06/2012 03:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> reason I am unhappy depending on USB for anything: it is complex >> enough, and ill-documented enough (are the specs even available without >> substantial payment and an NDA? I've never looked) that, once > > I had no problem reading an official spec on an official website for > free. I didn't check, but I am pretty sure there was anough information > there to build a USB host or device. There is. I haven't done it myself, but lots of people have bit-banged USB. It's really not that hard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sander.reiche at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 15:31:43 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:31:43 +0100 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I know they had at least Zork I. ?I sold a command summary card for it a > while ago. ?I probably shouldn't have done that. Hehe. From sander.reiche at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 15:32:36 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:32:36 +0100 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:14 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. Which, of course, is available somewhere online to download? :) > It's also available to play online... on a "real" emulated PDP 11... Eh? re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 6 15:33:05 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:33:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203062133.QAA04833@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Does anyone here collect HP calculators? > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Oh, my, nostalgia time. An HP machine - a 9820, I think, after wandering around there and one of the places it links to - was one of the first machines I did anything I would (today) call "programming" on. If I ever find myself with enough money to indulge my nostalgia in such a way, I will track down one of them. :) Another HP machine, this one a rackmount with buttons for doing things like hand-loading bootstrap code, was another of those early machines. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Mar 6 15:40:37 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:40:37 -0500 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <4F55250F.2070101@brouhaha.com> <4F552CD5.9060906@verizon.net> <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F568455.9020706@verizon.net> On 03/06/2012 04:35 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. I use spool wire, a few colors, hand stripper of the automatic type, and a OKtool manual (you squeeze to spin the bit) and good gold tail sockets. Even now it's less expensive to equip to do that than buy the soldering gear and all. Reliability, I have panels I made up back in the 70s still running (including an ELF). Its easier to train an operator to do wirewrap and recognoze a good wrap than soldering. No power needed to make up a board so the kit to do it is portable. Oh, there are no RoHS issues with wirewrap (no lead, no fluxes). The largest system done with wirewrap by me was about 200 pcs TTL and bit slice. It was a complete custom processor with ram and IO. Allison > On 6 March 2012 02:14, allison wrote: > >> On 03/05/2012 04:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:15 PM, allison wrote: >>> >>>> Ethan Dicks wrote about the COSMAC Elf: >>>>> It's certainly true that the 4016 and 4066 have differences in their >>>>> characteristics. However, in the simple way in which it is used in the >>>>> Elf, >>>>> I can't see how it would make any difference. I can't say that I've >>>>> actually tried it, though. >>>>> >>>> I have no difference. >>>> >>> I was told by the engineer who made the Quest SuperElf that he had a >>> problem subbing 4066s for 4016s. He was rather insistent there was a >>> problem. I have not tried it myself, either. My breadboard Elf and >>> my Quest Elf have 4016 switches. >>> >>> That may be the super elf. There is one oddity of the 1802, if run at >> higher speeds >> the timing of the control signals tend to skew badly. Also like all CMOS >> voltages >> at the pins are critical. I found the 4066 to be better, it's the same as >> the 4016 >> but the series resistance of each switch is lower and the rate is can >> switch >> on or off is a bit faster. I've used both with no issue but I'm fussy >> about the >> timing and clock rates. >> >> Like any CMOS system get the ground and power well bussed and clean. >> It's tolerant but some parts can throw spikes when they switch that are >> nasty. >> >> >> that and also making sure all the wires go where they are supposed to. >>> Indeed. That was my problem on my Popular Electronics Elf. >>> >>> Wire wrap has always looked like a bowl of pasta to me. Even my own >> work. >> >> >> I've built many of the COSMAC ELFs over the years and still have my wire >>>> wrapped original, a >>>> QUEST PCB version and a few more wire wrapped variants. I made a version >>>> of >>>> the ELF on S100. >>>> >>> Nice. >>> >>> It's one of those CPUs that can be almost called an attractive nusance. >> ;) >> >> One thing I've not done yet is build a software compatible TTL or CMOS SSI >> version of the 1802 from the ground up. I think a 4 2901s could do th bulk >> of the registers and D nicely. >> >> >> >> I also have the EELF and ELF2000. It was a simple and very non-critical >>>> CPU to build up and make work. >>>> >>> Yep. I've built those, too. I just pulled out my Elf2K this weekend. >>> I need to re-do the switch plate label - somehow a drop of oil got >>> onto the paper and left a stain. >>> >>> I like my EELF as it's the whole stack with 8x24 video board. It ended >> up in >> an old Atlantic Research RS232 line monitor box with a nice 5" monitor. So >> the whole result with a PS2 keyboard is very portable though for AC power >> only. I need to build a power supply so it can run on a 12V source as >> there >> is room for 7AH battery inside.. >> >> >> Of all the 1802 is the most interesting as it's >>>> not unlike the PDP-8 in that its >>>> simple to the extreme yet still useful. >>>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> There's one thing I can do on my Elf2000 that I still can't do on a >>> PDP-8... play Zork. >>> >>> >> But consider this it was lunar lander and a few other games on PDP8 >> ( or PDP12) that got the games thing going. Having played lunar lander >> with analog inputs on a vector monitor, I can say it's fun. >> >> Allison >> From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 6 15:43:04 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:43:04 +0000 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: <626bf945effc3872a8ab4209df767b2b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <626bf945effc3872a8ab4209df767b2b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:45 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Would that be an image usable under SIMH? > > Ed It certainly is... I'm quite happy to zip it all up (configuration and all) and send to whomever wants it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Mar 6 15:51:04 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:51:04 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:06:22 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > An empty H960 is still pretty heavy, but I did manage to get one up > the stairs solo once. Won't be doing that again. :-) I have a H960 in my flat, 2nd flor. When I got it, I removed the riverts. (There are 28 of them.) So the top and the four side posts came loose. The side panels and the back cover are removable anyway. So I put everything upstairs in parts. Then I used ordinary M6 screws and nuts in place of the riverts to put the thing together again. Simple and works well. I did the same when I got my "low boy" DEC rack... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 15:54:57 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:54:57 -0500 Subject: SA600 cables Message-ID: Hi, Jason, If nobody comes to claim your SA600, I would be interested in a few of the SDI cables if you would take the time to remove them and drop them in a box and mail them (just let me know what you'd want for postage and time). I have a couple of RA70s and I'd love some intracabinet cables to hook them up to a controller. I'd most likely be installing them into a BA123 I have in the dining room - it came to me empty, so I get to build it up however I want. Of course, I hope you find a taker for the whole thing - it's a nice cabinet but too far for me (and I'm more of an H960 guy anyway) -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Mar 6 15:55:43 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:55:43 -0500 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca>, , <20120305115316.V81710@shell.lmi.net>, <4F55217C.1080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F5687DF.4090704@verizon.net> On 03/06/2012 12:43 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I read one of them. There were enough going > out to schools the create a user group. There weren't a lot (maybe 50 to 100) but back then there were maybe a few hundred Linc, and many other lab made computers out there. > I'd have loved to tinker with one when I was in > school. > They were really slow though. I'd have thought > they'd need to be faster to control a missle. I did, They were slow but careful programming made them appear fast enough. They were extremely awkward to program though. > For the time, anything that could compute was > cool. > I wonder how many working ones are left. Same here. I'd suspect the surface barrier transistors used have seen half life failure due to germanium whiskers causing internal shorts. It's a repairable thing. > Even if it did,'t have the drum unit. That could easily > be replaced with something else to provide the > same function. They were supplied with disk (it was a platter not a drum). the disk was a multi head affair that provided data/program tracks and multiple "registers". Flipflops being very costly in terms of transistors (4-8 per bit) needed were very few. Everything was bit serial. They were a pain to power as they needed multiple voltages at hefty currents and the disk had to have 400hz for the spindle motor. All of the IO needed level conversion for the intended use. As a result many were studied, some powered and most just looked at. the military didn't do a program like that mostly because the market had moved on and the D37 was a clunker by industry standards by time it was in use. No one would have wanted it by time it reached retirement as the micro market and the PC were well established. Add to that military paranoia got worse but that was not so much an issue as lack of interest. Add to that within two to 3 years of their arrival (D17) the micro (8008) and PDP-8s, CDC160s and other cheap (under $10K) computers were becoming common and they were far easier to use and much faster. The world had already changed from a computing standpoint. Allison > Dwight > > > >> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:26:36 -0800 >> From: aek at bitsavers.org >> To: >> Subject: Re: Minuteman Computer >> >> On 3/5/12 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >>> (Or just the guidance system? and the other components are permitted?) >>> >> As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one >> time occurrence. The history is completely documented on the scanned material >> from the Minuteman User's Group documents on bitsavers. >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17/ >> >> I would appreciate it if people would READ it before saying anything more on >> this subject. >> >> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 15:55:49 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:55:49 -0500 Subject: SA600 cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, Jason, > > If nobody comes to claim your SA600... Whoops... that was meant to be private. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 16:02:03 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:02:03 +0000 Subject: The Sprow MiniB Message-ID: I'd not met this before. Apologies if it's general knowledge. A small single-board recreation of an Acorn BBC Micro model B. http://www.sprow.co.uk/bbc/minib.htm -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 16:02:26 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:02:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC Systems available Message-ID: I had someone lined up to take my DEC systems, but it fell through. So, here we go again. Any interest in: Alpha UP2000+ system Large tower case, 2 x 700MHz. 21264 CPU, 512MB of memory. Onboard chipset is succumbing to electro-migration and will not drive more than one bank of memory - thus the 512MB (board can take 2G). Has Tru64 installed on an internal SCSI drive. Alpha PC64 system Medium tower case, 1 x 266Mhz 21164 CPU, 256MB of memory. Has Tru64 installed on internal RAID array. DecStation 5000 Bare-bones system, but worked the last time I fired it up (10+ years ago) VaxStation 3100 I know very little about this unit, but believe it's operational. 2 x Multia These are little mini-format machines using the 21066 CPU @ 166Mhz. I have (somewhere) a 266Mhz. upgrade motherboard also - unknown whether it functions. Other odds and ends: A couple of Alpha motherboards, misc parts. I'm located in Burlington, VT. No reasonable offer refused, I need the space. No, I will not ship them. I don't have the time to deal with packing and/or any associated shipping damage issues. Life is too short. Steve -- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 6 16:05:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:05:01 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> John Many Jars wrote: > I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. Dungeon != Zork 1-3 Dungeon is a port of mainframe Zork. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 6 16:07:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:07:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20120306140520.B679@shell.lmi.net> > > - One seller cancelled my bid five minutes from the end of the auction > > and closed it as "item no longer available." Then sent me an extremely > > rude email accusing me of "wasting her time", "trying to get a valuable > > item for nothing" and "ripping her off". > > The item in question? An old Amiga software disk, sans any form of > > packaging... just the disk. Not even a particularly rare one either. > > For bonus points, they keep changing their damned user ID. On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, David Riley wrote: > And possibly the saddest part of this is that (unless there was a reserve > placed), you could have bid a million dollars/pounds and she wouldn't > have known, because no one else was bidding. That's just how eBay works > (or doesn't, depending on your perspective). The Seller sets the minimum bid amount. If they are seriously offended by that amount, might one suggest suicide? From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Mar 6 16:12:44 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:12:44 -0500 Subject: programmer for 8755 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F568BDC.8040601@verizon.net> If you spend a bit of time with a data sheet you would find that the 8755 programs much like the 2716 and in many cases (dataIO) it was a trivial adapter. Programming is simple: For each address DO; Present address to AD0-7 and A8-10 and cycle ALE (low, high, low): Present data of AD0-7: Pull prog/CE1* to 5V (NMOS high): pulse Vdd from 5V to 25V and back to 5V, the width of this pulse is 50mS: Remove data: Until done My first programmer for that part litterally was 10 switches (address/data), and ALE pulse button (debounced buton) and a program button (fired the Vdd and program pulse). The circuits were pretty trivial. I would later modify a PrommerII to do that. Allison On 03/06/2012 12:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Is it a 8755 or a 8755A. > They program differently. > Someplace in one of the Intel books there > is programming instructions. > It didn't program like a 2716 if that is what > your asking. > Still one could wire wrap something that would > work, using the printer port of a PC. > Dwight > > > >> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:53:15 -0600 >> Subject: programmer for 8755 >> From: kfergason at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> Can anyone point me to a reasonably priced programmer for the 8755? >> Lots of programmers but none seem to program this chip. >> The one I have found is pretty expensive, as in out of my range ( a >> couple of Elnec at $1k and more). >> >> Was the 8755 that different? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Kelly > > From cb at kryoflux.com Tue Mar 6 16:15:29 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:15:29 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE2990C-366F-4FDA-82D3-2B7966519DC3@kryoflux.com> Hey Tony, > > VIrtually every open-sourc program (includign all those under the GPL) > come with the statement that they are _NOT_ supported. You can't expect > soembody to work for you for nothing. You have the soruce code, fx it > yourself! > Good idea. What do you do when you are unable to write or modify a program? We deliver something that works, out of the box. It's for the 95% that don't know how to program and the 95% of the 5% left that have no idea about fluxes, disk coding or what pre-compensation means. No need to fix it, it's working! Since 2010, and we're constantly adding features. > I have been pleasanylu supprised by the support I get from open-source > software authors, but I don't exxpect them to do work for me for nothing. > I might e0-mail them a comment and/or a change I've made to do something > I want to do, Or I might ask them 'what is going one here' so that I can > fixx the problem. I always seem to get a helpful reply. You would also get a helpful reply from us. We really like to help. We have over 600 users out there. Look how much negative feedback there is on the forums. Forums are usually littered with complaints as people tend to only write something when things are bad. > > >> board. I can't look into the future, but you would still be able to=20 >> access the data ingested because the formats are documented. What I can=20 >> say is that we don't have plans to let it fade into oblivion, so my=20 > > So say 99% of other ahrdware and softwre mnufacutrers about their > products. Doesn't mean it doens't happen. ?does not mean it has to happen. > > I disagree. If there is a claer technicla point, as here, I feel a > developer or a simialr product is perhaps the best to raise it. > So it does not feel strange to you that the only person that ever complained about this is he who must not be named? > > To use your analony. If I fvisited your home I would not comment on your > style of deoor, your furniture, ro anythign like that. But if I saw > somethign that I considered to be dangerous to you, your family, or > others, I certianly would comment. If I saw you had some exxpensive > objects and that your door lock was a really cheap and simple one that > anyone could open with a paperclip I'd tell you about that too. You bet I > would. > No, you come to my place and give everyone around the impression that the food I serve is bad. I politely ask you to stop, you refuse, you get thrown out. Days later, everyone is still fine, the food was delicious and everyone enjoyed the evening very much, except for your visit. > It would appear from your comments that the only sort of message you > allow on your facebook page is one in favour of your product. That means > the page is essentially worthless .I want a see a balanced set of > comments. If soemthign is poorly doen, Iwant to know about it. I would > agree that a comment like 'This product is crap' helps nobody. An > explainatio of whay a particualr chip is a poor choice does. > So prove me wrong: there are more than 600 units in circulation, some are used every day for dozens of disks. Some have read tenths of thousands of disks. It is working fine. Did you ever think about that parts were chosen for a reason? Why would I change my design because a competitor thinks I should? > I've been on many forums and mailing lists over the years. I feel the > only things that should get you thrown off are inciitng crimes (and > racism, homophobia, etc) and posting wildily off-topic mesages. Not > positing reasonaed criticism of the device under discussion. Here I am. We have nothing to hide. I still tidy up the Facebook page from time to time. >> >>> 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of interests' i= >> f >>> somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the Diskferret? >> >> Suggestions like that (the original statement, not your question here)=20 >> would you get thrown out of my house for sure. Why would any large, big,=20 > > I fdeel that this attitudew is good for your bottom line now, but is not > godo for data preservation in general, and it's not good for the classic > computing hobby. A lot more gets done when inforation ant techniques arwe > shared. Yes, you don't maek the profit, but more data is preserved. Which > is more important? Data can be preserved - that's what the unit was made for. You get the STREAM data, that's your disk. You mess up preservation and the fact how we market our device. These are different things. Visit our site http://www.softpres.org We have lots of information to share. Our technology is based on this information. It's all free and we share it. Since 2001. Enjoy. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 16:25:06 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:25:06 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > ?- One seller cancelled my bid five minutes from the end of the auction > and closed it as "item no longer available." A seller can not do this - Ebay will not allow this scenario to happen. Refer to the selling policy. -- Will From rogpugh at mac.com Tue Mar 6 16:26:27 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:26:27 +0000 Subject: Fancy a Lisa? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F568F13.9020903@mac.com> On 06/03/2012 21:06, Liam Proven wrote: > Same friend who is selling the SAM Coup? and the UK101 also has a Lisa for sale: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230756673113 > > By the way, yes, he will ship internationally, at cost. > And an Exidy Sorcerer... He should be able to pay the mortgage this month with that lot he is selling.. From cb at kryoflux.com Tue Mar 6 16:31:36 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:31:36 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I do like my daytime job, I get paid for it. But how could I afford >> leaving it for a week, working for free, to make something happen? > > I don't know. Perhaps _you_ can't. But people regularly do build > things for no direct pay as a side-line, either while working for pay > or while between for-pay jobs. I, for example, worked for the second > half of '02 at a job that paid well enough I lived on the resulting > money for all of '03, which time I spent, in large part, creating > software to give away because I felt like it. > Mouse, I really envy you. I've I/we would be in this position, we'd enjoy this very much. If we could afford doing this because this would be funded somehow, we'd love to give it away for free, with GPL and all kinds of stuff. As prince charming did not come along yet, we still fund the preservation work we do, e.g. buying games to preserve them, with our own private money and what comes in via sales. > > Indeed. Was it lack of politesse, though, or was it criticism? There > is a very important difference. (I haven't seen any of the text in > question, so I don't know whether it was a questino of politeness. But > my experience has also been that honest technical criticism (and > pointing out a choice to use inappropriate line drivers/receivers is > that, even if it is also rude) usually is not impolite. The rabid > flamers generally don't have valid technical points. It's all about how you address things. You can send things in an email, or you can suggest something somewhere in public that will give people that don't have the skills the impression something is completely wrong. > >> Why would any large, big, mighty institution be hindered by us to >> look at a competitive product? Why would they let us hinder them? > > Perhaps they wouldn't. But if you consider it a conflict, and I have > seen companies take very similar stances often enough, then they would > have to choose between the two of you. (As a simple example of such a > conflict, it is extremely hard to find a restaurant, at least around > here, that serves products of both PepsiCo and Coca-Cola - the only > explanation I have heard suggested is that, in order for either to be > willing to sell to a restaurant, it has to agree to not deal with the > other.) Yes that's because both of them will require you to sign a contract that will not allow competing beverages to be sold. You also depend on them because the finance some of your interior. We don't have NDAs, and I don't see why we'd need those. We don't sell by telling stories about someone else, or by hindering someone to look at the competition. We sell because we care, and because we deliver. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 6 16:50:18 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:50:18 +0000 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:14 PM, John Many Jars > wrote: >> I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. > Which, of course, is available somewhere online to download? :) I'm happy to make it available for folks to download. I'd prefer to send it to folks who are interested then to put it up for general download, as it is set up for the bbs (the accounts i created for the bbs all have the same password which is hidden from the users) >> It's also available to play online... on a "real" emulated PDP 11... > Eh? telnet bbs.cortex-media.info create a bbs account type game at the prompt type 2 (if for some reason you can't connect, it probably means my ISP has had a failure again or my kids have unplugged the aceint dell laptop that runs the whole thing... let me know and I'll fix it) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 16:59:21 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:59:21 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:06:22 -0500 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> An empty H960 is still pretty heavy, but I did manage to get one up >> the stairs solo once. ?Won't be doing that again. ?:-) > > I have a H960 in my flat, 2nd flor. When I got it, I removed the > riverts. (There are 28 of them.) I could have done that but those are such large pop rivets that I didn't want to disturb them. In the end I did succeed, but had the rack slipped (which it almost did do!) I would probably have severely regretted the consequences. Fortunately the lesson was learned without pain. I never again tried to move up a flight a stairs a rack that's over 5% taller than me and nearly as heavy as me by myself without straps/ramps/wheels/mechanical and/or human assistance. Is there clearance between the side of the H960 and the grey sides for the M6 bolt heads, or does your rack lack the hang-on metal sides? -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 17:06:42 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:06:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I know they had at least Zork I. ?I sold a command summary card for it a >> while ago. ?I probably shouldn't have done that. > > Hehe. Hm? Are you the one I sold it to? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rickthornquist at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 17:21:38 2012 From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:21:38 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games Message-ID: Zane, Ethan's list of PDP-11 games agrees with mine. Note that the PDP-11 games would have come in Infocom's regular packaging, not the DEC gray sleeve packaging. Stefan, I have a press release which mentions that Infocom was going to do games for the Professional, but I haven't actually found any nor are any listed in their catalogs. - Rick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 17:36:15 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:36:15 -0500 Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I'd not met this before. Apologies if it's general knowledge. > > A small single-board recreation of an Acorn BBC Micro model B. > http://www.sprow.co.uk/bbc/minib.htm That's a cute little 6502 SBC, but when I think of a BBC Micro, I remember coding children's games for it in 1984 with sound and graphics. Was the Model B something else entirely or is this just a text-centric subset? -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 6 17:49:33 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:49:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> References: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201203062349.SAA06857@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) >> installed. > Dungeon != Zork 1-3 True, but a somewhat excusable mistake for someone who hasn't actually played them all. As I recall (it's been a long time since I played any of them, but once upon a time I did complete all four games), Zork 1 is about 3/4 taken from Dungeon with 1/4 new material, Zork 2 is about half and half, and Zork 3 is 1/4 coming from Dungeon and 3/4 n32. Among the three, there's not much of Dungeon that didn't get included. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 17:58:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 15:58:45 -0800 Subject: CIn defense of wire-wrap; was: osmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F568455.9020706@verizon.net> References: , , <4F568455.9020706@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2012 at 16:40, allison wrote: > I use spool wire, a few colors, hand stripper of the automatic type, > and a OKtool manual (you squeeze to spin the bit) and good gold tail > sockets. Even now it's less expensive to equip to do that than buy the > soldering gear and all. Sometimes for prototypes, I use socket pins and single-sided blank FR4 PCB stock. Drill holes for the pins with a #49 drill--releive the holes slightly on the copper side with a quick twist of a larger bit, shove the pins in, use the copper as a ground plane. The result looks very nice. But you can get good results with an $8 Radio Shack wire wrap tool that includes a stripper. The nice thing about wire wrap is that you can use different colors for different signals. Makes debugging a little easier. Repairs/modifications are easy--no soldering involved. (I use a G-D electric gun and an Augat stripper). I've got boards that I assembled more than 20 years ago still working fine. --Chuck From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Mar 6 18:11:02 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 00:11:02 +0000 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> References: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > John Many Jars wrote: >> >> I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. > > > Dungeon != Zork 1-3 > > Dungeon is a port of mainframe Zork. > Okay. I stand corrected. All I know is that I failed CSC100, but solved that stupid game. (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 6 18:14:59 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:14:59 -0500 Subject: Fancy a Lisa? In-Reply-To: <4F568F13.9020903@mac.com> References: <4F568F13.9020903@mac.com> Message-ID: <4F56A883.6000007@neurotica.com> On 03/06/2012 05:26 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: >> Same friend who is selling the SAM Coup? and the UK101 also has a Lisa >> for sale: >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230756673113 >> >> By the way, yes, he will ship internationally, at cost. >> > And an Exidy Sorcerer... > > He should be able to pay the mortgage this month with that lot he is > selling.. I really hope that's not the reason. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 6 18:18:37 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:18:37 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> References: <4F568A0D.9000002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <082de4ad91800bb8cafbe1c540adebf2.squirrel@_> > John Many Jars wrote: >> I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. > > Dungeon != Zork 1-3 > > Dungeon is a port of mainframe Zork. Which reminds me... Does anyone know anything about the version that ran on Harris Minicomputers? Zane From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 18:45:25 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:45:25 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <8CE2990C-366F-4FDA-82D3-2B7966519DC3@kryoflux.com> References: <8CE2990C-366F-4FDA-82D3-2B7966519DC3@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: >> >> I disagree. If there is a claer technicla point, as here, I feel a >> developer or a simialr product is perhaps the best to raise it. >> > > So it does not feel strange to you that the only person that ever complained about this is he who must not be named? If this is how you think about others who are trying to preserve data and history, I don't think you should be involved in preservation at all. Thanks for making up my mind in regards to your product. --Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 19:15:14 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:15:14 -0500 Subject: CIn defense of wire-wrap; was: osmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4F568455.9020706@verizon.net> <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> On Mar 6, 2012, at 6:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > (I use a G-D electric gun and an Augat stripper). I've got boards > that I assembled more than 20 years ago still working fine. I don't see why they wouldn't; the wire-wrapping process actually cold-welds the wire to the corners of the pin and makes a fairly gas-tight seal. If you're providing the correct amount of relief with unstripped wire at the end of the wrap, there's no reason your connections shouldn't last longer than a soldered one; it's actually less stress on the joint. Of course, the outside of the wrap starts to look pretty ugly pretty quickly, so perhaps people just assume they'll go bad quickly if they've never used wire-wrap. I should also point out that all of the original Macintosh prototypes were wire-wrapped, which should probably indicate that it's a pretty sound methodology for assembling microcomputers. It worked well enough in '83, anyway. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 19:35:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 01:35:59 +0000 Subject: Fancy a Lisa? In-Reply-To: <4F56A883.6000007@neurotica.com> References: <4F568F13.9020903@mac.com> <4F56A883.6000007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7 March 2012 00:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/06/2012 05:26 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: >>> >>> Same friend who is selling the SAM Coup? and the UK101 also has a Lisa >>> for sale: >>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230756673113 >>> >>> By the way, yes, he will ship internationally, at cost. >>> >> And an Exidy Sorcerer... >> >> He should be able to pay the mortgage this month with that lot he is >> selling.. > > > ?I really hope that's not the reason. :-( No, it's not. Geoff is an old friend of mine & we spent a lot of time chatting & catching up for the first time in a few years at an event last month that I invited him to & gave him a free ticket to. (http://www.sfxweekender.com/ if you're curious.) He spent year amassing what he aimed to be a definitive collection of 1980s home computers. The SAM he bought from me, others from other friends. He lives in a large farmhouse in the countryside with a large barn full of old cars & motorbikes, too. :?) We discussed our computer collections. He told me he'd decided to get rid of his impressive collection because he'd realised that he was never playing with any of the machines, did not have enough time to do so and probably would not in the foreseeable future. He has (re)discovered new hobbies, such as long-distance bicycling - we are planning to do Land's End-to-John O'Groats this summer. (The longest distance it's possible to cover in Britain - going end-to-end.) I'm in the same boat. I decided to go for 16-bit machines, as there were just too many 8-bit ones: I have an Amiga, an Atari ST, a Sinclair QL, an Archimedes and a RISC PC, plus a couple of IBM PS/2s - a top-end Model 80 and a late model, a desktop model 55sx which I hope to get OS/2 running on at some point in time. Also several Sinclair Spectrums as they were the first computer I owned, and a couple of Amstrad PCWs. But I too never play with them, which is why I've started to get rid of stuff that I will never use like the Compukit. I shall also try to find good homes for all but one of the 68K Macs, all but one of the 3 SUN SPARC machines, all but one of the PowerPC Macs and so on. Unlike Geoff, I /do/ need the money, though! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 19:41:42 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 01:41:42 +0000 Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 March 2012 23:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I'd not met this before. Apologies if it's general knowledge. >> >> A small single-board recreation of an Acorn BBC Micro model B. >> http://www.sprow.co.uk/bbc/minib.htm > > That's a cute little 6502 SBC, but when I think of a BBC Micro, I > remember coding children's games for it in 1984 with sound and > graphics. ?Was the Model B something else entirely or is this just a > text-centric subset? I guess it's just a text-centric subset, then. It does appear to be at least partially BBC-compatible, though. In my somewhat vague recollection, many people /did/ use the BBC as a text-centric machine, because in Mode 7, with the Mullard teletext chip generating the display, you got the most available free memory from its meagre 32KB. Certainly many of the ones I saw in labs at university had got things like the READY > ... prompt, in Mode 7's rounded characters, burned into their Microvitec Cub monitors. That or the function-key strip from Acornsoft View or whatever the sideways-ROM-based word-processor was called. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 6 19:52:13 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:52:13 -0600 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F562E34.31127.77B8FC@dave12.dunfield.com> References: , <201203060957.EAA21356@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4F5615A6.1090304@philpem.me.uk> <4F562E34.31127.77B8FC@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F56BF4D.8000200@jbrain.com> On 3/6/2012 9:33 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > USB will fade - it will fade faster than parallel, serial, keyboard > etc. because it's hard to talk to - as soon as something > bigger-better-faster becomes mainstream, it will drop from "current" > systems, and the support chips will go end-of-life shortly afterward. > 5 years later, few people will know what it was, and 10+ years later > it will be completely unknown (except to people like us :-). It's > astounding how quickly "PC" technology is obsoleted (it's already > getting hard to find IDE drives, PS/2 keyboards and mice - etc. and I > still depend on systems that use these components). All interfaces will fade, but I don't think USB will fade faster than the older, less flexible interface standards. The flexibility of USB created a large product sales footprint. As well, more people buy peripherals in the USB age than purchased in the RS232/Centronics Parallel age. I think the general public will resist replacement of this standard. I think the current DVD/BluRay shares some similarities, as the public has only recently found enough "value" in BluRay to migrate. > Why is RS-232 "unusable"? It may not be fast, but it beats the hell > out of not getting the data. I've imaged many disks from native > systems over a serial port. Sometimes a slow serial port - Might take > a few minites, but the images were recovered. And that is often older > systems that often can't go above 9600 (or if you are lucky 19200). > 115k is pretty standard these days -- about 11k/second. To transfer a > meg would take about 1-1/2 minites. Even if you double that for > overhead - I'd wait 3 mins to get an image from a disk I really wanted. I can't speak to the DiscFerret technology, but as ZoomFloppy competes a bit in this space (DiscFerret, KryoFlux, insofar as all three image disk data), I think I can comment with confidence. RS232 would simply not work with the ZoomFloppy hardware without additional hardware resources. For nibbling disks, ZoomFloppy is receiving data as it passes under the read head. Without internal RAM of any appreciable amount, the ZF unit must send that data at a rate fast enough to eliminate the storage requirement. Yes, RS232 could be accommodated by adding RAM, but I don't see a point. * USB works today. It's also easier to support for end users. An Ethernet-based solution has to contend with switches, firewalls, etc. * It's not feasible to make a RS-232 only device. Few people want such an item. I understand few != none, but most want to plug into their current machine and go. Thus: * The interface is USD$35.00 ($42.00 for the IEEE version). Adding RAM, creating a potential second PCB and firmware version for the RS232 version (or the additional work to create a unified firmware image and PCB), the additional testing involved to ensure all features work with both USB and RS232, and adding the hardware to enable RS232 (ZoomFloppy uses a USB-capable part for the uC, and needs no additional IC for USB. RS232 would require a level translator) would increase the price of the product. This means everyone will pay more for a feature that will benefit a few people. (I don't want to cite specifics, but I am pretty confident in my ability to price products for sale and think I can speak confidently on this point) * If/when USB becomes hard to use, I am sure someone will create a new ZoomFloppy-type unit that uses the newer standard. As the design is open source, there's little hurdle. Thus, I think it's best to develop/market a solution that minimizes the "means" and concentrates on the "ends" at an attractive price point, one that satisfies the needs of 80% of the community. I don't mean any offense, but the remaining 20% will often be unhappy with any pragmatic design ("Jim, I won't buy it until it supports data transfer by carrier pigeon!") and it's very hard to please them at all. They provide the most negative critiques ("Well, I wanted to like it, I really did, but Jim ruined the design by not using MSI components, opting for those playground-of-the-devil FPGAs"), generate the minority of sales ("Well, I'll buy one, maybe, but I'll just reproduce the design using my home PCB skills and portable CNC mill"), and demand the most out of development efforts and testing ("Jim, when will we get CBM 1551 support? Your product is useless to me without it. Yes, I know the 1541 will read/write the same format and the 1551 is just a 1541 mech with new interface electronics, but I expect 1551 support!"). Arguably, the Commodore market is not representative of all vintage markets, as lots of people still use CBM machines in daily activities. If I developed solutions for PDPs and such, where the majority of owners are collectors, the above would likely change. As with others, I can see merit to both sides of this debate. I have, though, found that those who choose to offer commercial products walk a fine line. Deftly handling the competing viewpoints requires significant diplomacy: * Vintage enthusiasts will pay reasonable sums for specialized physical products. Many surmise the premium cost is due to low volumes (often true), specialized parts (also true), and a nod to the person who bothered to offer the product in the first place. This doesn't give the producer a license to rip off the community, but the customers seem to be pretty savvy on costs and value. * There's less flexibility for software. I'll let others debate the reasons. * There's very little flexibility for software that enables hardware operation. * Releasing the design and the SW under an open source license creates lots of goodwill in the community. It's not necessary, but keeping a design closed or keeping the SW closed creates a considerable burden on the owner: o You either have to support all realistic SW platforms or endure criticism for the lack of support or timely support. o You have to defend the lack of HW features and you risk lots of negative discussion activity if that support is not forthcoming or is delayed. * As a commercial provider, I have to pay special attention to commenting on competitive designs. For instance, I have some serious concerns about drive solutions like IDE64 (I think the DOS is too intimately tied to the ATAPI standard and IDE specifically). However, blurting that out in a forum will likely be seen as an attack on a competitive product and a desperate move to build up my product Some other observations: * I feel releasing designs to open source aligns with the spirit of vintage collecting and preservation. Thus, I find purely closed offerings in this community problematic. In those cases, the designer is preserving the continued use of an older platform but yet not allowing the same flexibility for the preservation aid. Concerning KryoFlux, I still worry about longevity. If time passes and the owners move on, is the design now open source? (No, it is not). Thus, even though the design is free for non-commercial private use, it can't live beyond its creator's interest. * I do cost reduce solutions. However, I feel designs should "do no harm". In other words, the cost reduction might create units that do not function, but they should never adversely affect the target vintage equipment. * As a fellow enthusiast, I share David's concern over the closed and guarded nature of the KryoFlux Analyzer. I don't buy the arguments in the FAQ. I see no issue with letting anyone creating IPFs, as I feel the community will self select the people who do it well. As well, it's been my experience that there are lots of very intelligent people in this community, and one delude themselves thinking a "complex" solution is not useful to others without extensive training/education. * I disagree with Christian's "audit" response. I don't think the OP was lamenting the fact that he/she could not audit the source, but that a closed source product can never be truly "audited", as the author can always doctor the version provided for audit. And, even if I am wrong and it can, it creates a perception problem. * The legal concerns about "conflict of interest" do concern me. There are precious few people in this area of expertise, I think it's the responsibility of hardware and software vendors to ensure such a product or offering does not fragment the group. Christian's response did not clear things up. I don't understand how " What I find interesting is that several of my UK, European and Japanese contacts (at various computer museums in those countries) were scared off of working with the DiscFerret. Nearly every one of them cited the same reason: "conflicts of interest" between assisting with DiscFerret and using commercial versions of the Kryoflux analysis software (which I suspect would be CTA or a variant thereof). " would get one "thrown out of the 'house'". While it's an unsavory topic, it's one that demands some type of response. If someone said that to me, I believe I would send a note to the individual and request he/she forward it on, assuring them that they can work on both projects without fear of litigation. * I agree that you're paying someone not to develop a solution, but to *NOT* do something else. I'm a good example. I give up weeknights and weekends to develop products because I get paid to do so. I could enjoy another hobby if I was so inclined. * I've seen lots of OSS projects "die". While one might not call them "discontinued", users will steer clear when they see no effort is being expended on the project. * I am glad that the folks have made the Kryoflux formats open and documented. * I agree with Tony position that having to work with the producer to add a new target is a huge hurdle. What if the producer and Tony are at odds on the significance of the addition. As an example, I know there are folks who want to add SDIO support to sd2iec firmware as used in uIEC. I am happy for them, but I have very little intention of supporting or testing that in uIEC. In Christian's example, I'd have to work with the user to incorporate patches to support something I either don't care about, or active discourage. In the case of uIEC/SD, the source is open, as is the HW design, so they can happily go their own way without my hindering them. * I don't put a lot of stock in vintage product forums as a metric to gauge customer satisfaction. Those who don't like the product rarely post on the forums, they just sell the unit and move on, potentially carping about it in other forums. That said, I do not dismiss the jovial tone of the Kryoflux forum. I am convinced those folks do enjoy the unit. Meaning no offense to Tony, he does illustrate my 20% rule above. While his concerns are worhty of consideration, he admits he owns no USB host hardware and is thus not a prospective user. So, Christian's responses are largely academic, in that they will not sway Tony to buy a unit, because Tony can't use one. While such responses are worthwhile, one cannot spend too much time on these discussions in lieu of responding to actual owners and prospective buyers. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 19:56:33 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 01:56:33 +0000 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 Message-ID: The "Program 101": http://english.pravda.ru/history/07-03-2012/120702-Program_101_first_personal_computer-0/ Thoughts? I've never even heard of this product before. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 6 19:58:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:58:43 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2012 at 20:15, David Riley wrote: > I should also point out that all of the original Macintosh > prototypes were wire-wrapped, which should probably indicate that it's > a pretty sound methodology for assembling microcomputers. It worked > well enough in '83, anyway. Unless my memory has completely failed me, some microprocessor prototypes were first done up in wirewrap before going to silicon. And there were plenty of wirewrapped backplanes. Wasn't it WECo who pioneered wire-wrap in the 1950s? There was also a sort of "stitched wire" fabrication method. I can't for the life of me remember the name of it, however. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 6 21:10:04 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:10:04 -0600 Subject: EDN 4th Annual Microprocessor Directory, Nov 1977 Message-ID: <20120307031004.GN3496@n0jcf.net> I've been going through folders, files, listings and other things I received from the estate of a local OP who passed away several years ago. He had saved this EDN article from the November 20, 1977 issue titled "EDN's Fourth Annual Microprocessor Directory". I scanned it including the ads because it's kinda fun to see what was selling back then. You can see a little about the GI CP-1600 which was recently discussed on this list too. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6A73VHTVh23eWdNRUxHRkVUbXlDZHBRMGJRbmRkdw Chris -- Chris Elmquist From evan at snarc.net Tue Mar 6 21:22:39 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:22:39 -0500 Subject: Latest VCF East update Message-ID: <4F56D47F.3080606@snarc.net> Here's the majority of the lecture and workshop lineup for Vintage Computer Festival East 8.0, May 5-6, Wall, N.J. (we will announce one more lecture in the near future): On the lecture front: - Saturday opening: me - History of Commodore part 2: Bil Herd - Life, Death, and Afterlife of Charles Babbage's Difference Engine No. 2: Marcin Wichary - The Invention of BASIC: Thomas Kurtz - Sunday opening: me - History and Impact of Analog Computing: Kent Lundford - Apple's Early Years: Dan Kottke On the workshop front, we've got: - Intro to Vintage Software Restoration: Bill Degnan - Intro to Minicomputer Care & Feeding: Dave McGuire - How it's Done: 8-Bit Chiptune Music: Don Miller & friends - Intro to Commodore 8-Bit Maintenance: Bil Herd - Intro to Apple II Maintenance: Mike Willegal - Intro to S-100 Zen & Innerworkings: Jon Chapman - Build a Vector Graphics Kit: Dan Roganti From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 6 21:23:49 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Rick Thornquist wrote: > Zane, Ethan's list of PDP-11 games agrees with mine. Note that the PDP-11 > games would have come in Infocom's regular packaging, not the DEC gray > sleeve packaging. > > Stefan, I have a press release which mentions that Infocom was going to do > games for the Professional, but I haven't actually found any nor are any > listed in their catalogs. I just now sent off an email to one of the Implementors asking if they actually did sell games for the Professional series. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jonas at otter.se Tue Mar 6 14:45:23 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 21:45:23 +0100 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F567763.1080802@otter.se> > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. IIRC wire wrapping is supposed to be more reliable. I certainly remember that it is supposed to be easier to see whether a wrapped joint is good or bad than it is to see whether a soldered joint is good or bad. For a soldered joint to have maximum reliability, among other things the parts to be soldered must be solidly joined before soldering, and not held together by the solder. It is not hard to learn to wire wrap, certainly not with an electrical tool. You more or less just do it. I have never tried wrapping with an unpowered tool. I doubt that would be much more difficult, just harder on your hands. /Jonas From alkopop79 at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 14:46:10 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:46:10 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F55EABC.9349.55BFD7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F5572F0.8000704@verizon.net> <4F55EABC.9349.55BFD7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I can make PCBs at home, probably I should design a semi-point-to-point board. On 6 March 2012 18:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Mar 2012 at 9:35, Gergely L"orincz wrote: > > > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. > > Done well, they're probably about the same. You're limited by the > PCB in using vero, but wire-wrap is 3-dimensional; it can be very > dense indeed and lends itself to some interesting techniques, such as > using twisted pair for ECL. > > --Chuck > > > From bqt at softjar.se Tue Mar 6 16:08:46 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:08:46 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F568AEE.3050107@softjar.se> On 2012-03-06 12.45, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:21:09 -0800,healyzh at aracnet.com wrote: >>> >> In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. >>> >> They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the >>> >> Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). They came in >>> >> large >>> >> gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. Here's >>> >> an example: >> > >> > Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? >> > >> > Zane > Hmm, would they work on P/OS ?? Most anything for RSX would also work on P/OS. That said, Infocom never released anything for RSX. They only did an RT-11 version of their games as far as I know. > ANY GAMES for DEC Professional series ? Any? Sure. ZEMU should work just fine under P/OS for one (well, maybe you need to change one thing or two, and recompile it, but it I think that the actual basic task, with no shared libraries and stuff should just work as is as well). Apart from that, I know I saw some weird graphic game for P/OS when I worked at DEC in the 80s, which I've never seen since, but which I'd like to find out more about. If I remember right, it was sortof a grid base, on which you had a robot which you moved around, and which fought others things. I'm very fuzzy on the details, since it was so long ago since I saw it, and I never played it myself, only watched other playing it. Looked cool though. You might find some stuff in the DECUS library, and as long as you are satisfied with text based stuff, almost anything for RSX will work as well. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Mar 6 16:12:32 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:12:32 -0800 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F568BD0.5020902@softjar.se> On 2012-03-06 12.45, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Stefan Skoglund > wrote: >> > On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:21:09 -0800,healyzh at aracnet.com wrote: >>>> >>> In 1983/84, DEC came out with their own versions of the Infocom games. >>>> >>> ?They were in DEC's 'Digital Classified Software' line and were for the >>>> >>> Rainbow and the DECMate II (and perhaps other systems). ?They came in >>>> >>> large >>>> >>> gray sleeves that were different than the usual Infocom packaging. ?Here's >>>> >>> an example: >>> >> >>> >> Do you have examples of the games they released for the PDP-11? >> > >> > Hmm, would they work on P/OS ?? > Infocom's releases for the PDP-11 ran on RT-11. I know you can run > RT-11 binaries under RSTS/E, but I can't remember if there was a way > to do that with RSX-11 (which is what P/OS descends from). You could > get RT-11 for the DECprofessional, so the hardware can do it, but I > only ever used P/OS at the menu level. There was this product called RTEM, which allows you to run an RT-11 environment under RSX. But that might not work under P/OS. Besides, that is more complex than the RT-11 runtime system under RSTS/E. >> > ANY GAMES for DEC Professional series ? > I don't remember for certain, but I don't think so, at least not > packaged games that were advertised for the machine. There were often > playable games that came as part of various operating systems, and, of > course, written by users and shared via DECUS and Usenet and such. There might have been a few around the time when P/OS was recently announced, but I doubt they sold many, and I would very much doubt you'd have much luck finding any of those today. There is atleast a Chess program for the windowing system for P/OS that DEC released. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Mar 6 16:18:00 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:18:00 -0800 Subject: John Many Jars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F568D18.9060706@softjar.se> On 2012-03-06 12.45, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> > I know they had at least Zork I. ?I sold a command summary card for it a >> > while ago. ?I probably shouldn't have done that. > I have an image of a PDP 11 RSTS/E with Dungeon (zork 1 -3) installed. > > It's also available to play online... on a "real" emulated PDP 11... Well, that is technically a reimplementation of the original Zork for the PDP-10. It is not the same as Zork 1-3, although there are similarities. The original Zork was way too big, when Infocom was founded and they wanted to release Zork for microcomputers. So they split Zork into three parts. Zork 1 is pretty much most of the original Zork, but without parts on the other side of the river (if I remember right). Zork 2 is parts of the other side of the river, and then lots of totally new stuff that does not exist in PDP-10 Zork. Zork 3 is more new stuff that don't exist in PDP-10 Zork, and then also the endgame, which I remember as being pretty much straight off the same. Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 01:04:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:04:34 -0800 Subject: EDN 4th Annual Microprocessor Directory, Nov 1977 In-Reply-To: <20120307031004.GN3496@n0jcf.net> References: <20120307031004.GN3496@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4F569802.11054.53B5A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2012 at 21:10, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I've been going through folders, files, listings and other things I > received from the estate of a local OP who passed away several years > ago. I recognize almost all of the ones discussed, but there were some headscratchers. Did Intel ever deliver the 8021? I've never seen an SBP0400A, either. And it's really to chuckle at the lumping together of Z80, Z8 and Z8000 MPUs under the same tab, describing them as 8080 instruction- compatible devices... Exactly what about the GI CP1601 was more "LSI-11 like" than the CP1600? I'd still like to get my hands on a Fairchild 9440... --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 7 01:07:09 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:07:09 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Liam Proven wrote: > > The "Program 101": > Warning - long rambling response.... It was actually called the Programma 101, or "P101" for short. It was a stored-program desktop programmable calculator. Its development began in 1962. It was not introduced to the market in Europe until 1964, and wasn't available formally in the US market until the fall of 1965 (though some did make it into the US prior to then via informal methods). There were a number of other electronic calculators had come on the scene prior to the P101, including one machine that was also a stored program calculator called the Mathatronics Mathatron. Though the Mathatron did not have offline storage for its programs, it did use core memory which was non-volatile, so programs were not lost when the machine was powered off, while the P101 did lose its memory when turned off (it used magnetostrictive delay lines), making offline storage of programs and data more of a requirement. The Mathatron could do everything that the P101 could with the exception of magnetic card functionality, and it was introduced in the US almost two years prior to the P101. Was the Mathatron a personal computer? Not by my definition. The claim that the P101 was the first-ever "Personal Computer" is debatable, though the father of the machine, Pier Girogio Perotto, insisted that it was the first personal computer until the day he died. Before he died, I debated this with him via Email (though it was interesting, as I had to use translators to/from Italian). He was insistent despite my arguments to the contrary. In my opinion, the machine should be classed as one of the earliest desktop learn-mode programmable calculators (though it wasn't the first..the Mathatron was), not a personal computer. It had a lot of the characteristics of a computer, in that it was programmable, it had a magnetic card for writing out programs and data, and reading them back in. It had a serial printer that could both record output of calculations and programs, and could also list out programs. It was a numeric-only printer, with special characters for annotation (math function, memory register identification). It couldn't print general text. It could add, subtract, multiply and divide, along with calculating square root and absolute value as built-in functions. Programs had to be written for other functions such as logarithms and trig. It wasn't terribly fast, especially when executing programs, because each program step had to be "waited for" as it circulated through the delay line, and memory register access also was serial in nature. It was capable of simple conditional branching. It had a number of memory registers (quite limited) that could store variables and constants. The machine was an all transistor design (no ICs), and used a magnetostrictive delay line for register and program step storage. The keyboard and printer were heavy mechanical devices more reminiscent of a mechanical desktop calculator. Programs were "learned" into the machine by entering the steps from the keyboard a step at a time. It did not have peripheral interfacing capabilities, so the machine was what it was with no real means for expansion or additional peripheral devices. Given that it had very limited memory capacity, and variable storage registers were traded off for program steps, it could only do so much, though through clever use of the mag cards, programs could be "chained" and larger capacity for programs and data created. However, it required manual operation to load/unload cards, and slowed down the process. The machine was capable of some pretty amazing calculations, including its use by NASA for calculating antenna aiming information for the US Apollo spacecraft program. Personal computer? There were machines that significantly predated it that were more capable, and could be considered "personal". The Stanley Frankel-designed Royal McBee/General Precision LGP-30 (1956) was a true computer, that could easily be used at a personal level. It was fully programmable, had peripheral interfacing capabilities, had a versatile I/O typewriter that could do both text and numbers, and plugged into a standard electrical outlet. It had much more memory (magnetic drum-based), and much larger programs could be written, though in order to do math like could be done simply on the P101, math routines had to be written, along with I/O routines to accept input and print output. Monroe, in the early to mid-1950's had "desk-sized" (not desktop) machines called the Monrobot series that could do more than the P101 and were more computer-like in their later models. Clary also built the DE-60, another desk-sized programmable calculator that was computer-like. IBM's 610 "Auto-Point" calculator was a very capable stored program calculator/computer that could out-perform the P101, but it was quite large and expensive. All of these machines came about in the 1950's, quite a long time before the Programma 101 came out. These machines could potentially be considered "Personal Computers" before the P101 was even a concept. The Programma 101 was pretty simple to program, probably less complicated than these earlier machines, but that also limited it capabilities. The key things that the P101 had going for it was that it was a desktop machine (though rather large and heavy - 80 pounds), and it was comparatively inexpensive, selling for around $3900. These predecessors didn't fit on a desk (though the Mathatron was a desktop machine, though it took up quite a bit of square footage on an average desk), and were significantly more expensive. Was the P101 the first personal computer? My opinion is that it isn't, but then some might argue. Some consider the Berkeley SIMON computer, developed in the late 1940s, with articles on how to build the relay-based machine published in Radio Electronics in the early 1950's, to be the first personal computer. Some also consider HP's 9100A calculator (1968) the first personal computer. This calculator made everything developed prior to it look like a toy. It had much larger memory capacity, had logs and trig built-in, was an all-transistor microcoded design, and could interface to a significant number of peripherals including plotters, printers, extended memory, and even custom interfaces made for instrumentation control systems. But in my mind, it was still a calculator, though an extremely powerful one. My personal definition of the first real desktop personal computer would be the HP 9830. It had a full alphanumeric keyboard and display, was programmed in BASIC, had large memory capacity, could interface to a wide range of peripherals (plotters, printers, storage, instrumentation interfaces, telecommunications). It could be used as a calculator by simply typing in math expressions and pressing a key, and the answer would be displayed. It was introduced in 1972. It sat on a desk, and was easily usable in a productive fashion by anyone after spending a little time reading through the well-written manual. All that said, the P101 was an amazing machine for its time. It was immensely popular, and spawned some follow-on machines from Olivetti that improved on its capabilities. However, HP's domination of the high-end programmable calculator market beginning with the 9100A eventually knocked Olivetti out of that line of business, though Olivetti did stick with producing office calculators for some time. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 01:07:30 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:07:30 +0100 Subject: DEC and Osborne Infocom Games In-Reply-To: References: <626bf945effc3872a8ab4209df767b2b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hi John, I'd like a copy, please! re, Sander On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:43 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > > It certainly is... I'm quite happy to zip it all up (configuration and > all) and send to whomever wants it. > -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 7 01:08:24 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:08:24 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com > > The "Program 101": > > http://english.pravda.ru/history/07-03-2012/120702-Program_101_first_personal_computer-0/ > > Thoughts? I've never even heard of this product before. > Hi It was a programable calculator. One could almost say it was a computer because it did have a conditional branch. Programs could be saved on magnetic cards. It used delay lines for registers and memory. I wouldn't call it a computer. I'd still like to have had one. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 7 01:39:12 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 23:39:12 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F567763.1080802@otter.se> References: , <4F567763.1080802@otter.se> Message-ID: > From: jonas at otter.se > > > > I wonder, which one is more reliable, wire-wrapping or soldering on a > > vero/stripboard? I fancy learning wire wrapping but it's expensive. > IIRC wire wrapping is supposed to be more reliable. I certainly remember > that it is supposed to be easier to see whether a wrapped joint is good > or bad than it is to see whether a soldered joint is good or bad. For a > soldered joint to have maximum reliability, among other things the parts > to be soldered must be solidly joined before soldering, and not held > together by the solder. > > It is not hard to learn to wire wrap, certainly not with an electrical > tool. You more or less just do it. I have never tried wrapping with an > unpowered tool. I doubt that would be much more difficult, just harder > on your hands. > > /Jonas Hi It is not true that the joint has to be mechanically sound before soldering. It really depends on the amount of stress you expect the joint to withstand. If you are soldering 30 ga. wire wrap wire, tack soldering will last for a hunderd years if no one yanks on it. I've done many projects with tack soldering and never had one fail. What do you think surfice mount is? Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 7 01:58:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:58:33 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F571529.2020308@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was also a sort of "stitched wire" fabrication method. Multiwire. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 7 02:00:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 00:00:31 -0800 Subject: EDN 4th Annual Microprocessor Directory, Nov 1977 In-Reply-To: <4F569802.11054.53B5A0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120307031004.GN3496@n0jcf.net> <4F569802.11054.53B5A0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F57159F.8000600@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recognize almost all of the ones discussed, but there were some > headscratchers. Did Intel ever deliver the 8021? Yes. Found in the Keytronic version of the TRS-80 Model II keyboard, among other things. > I've never seen an SBP0400A, either. I've seen one on an eval board, but I don't think it ever got designed into very many things. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 02:22:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 00:22:06 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F571529.2020308@brouhaha.com> References: , <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F571529.2020308@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F56AA2E.20373.9AB0D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Mar 2012 at 23:58, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There was also a sort of "stitched wire" fabrication method. > Multiwire. That's it--thanks! --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 02:27:42 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:27:42 -0000 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C0E660A695740219403D3056F4218D6@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: 07 March 2012 07:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first > ever PC, in 1962 > > > > > > From: lproven at gmail.com > > > > The "Program 101": > > > > > http://english.pravda.ru/history/07-03-2012/120702-Program_101 _first_personal_computer-0/ > > Thoughts? I've never even heard of this product before. > > >Hi > It was a programable calculator. >One could almost say it was a computer because >it did have a conditional branch. Programs could As I understand things the usual differentiator between a "programmable calculator" and " Computer" is that its possible for the program in a computer to change itself. So can the P101 store the result of a calculation into programme memory? >be saved on magnetic cards. It used delay lines >for registers and memory. > I wouldn't call it a computer. >I'd still like to have had one. >Dwight From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 7 02:56:27 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:56:27 +0000 Subject: John Many Jars In-Reply-To: <4F568D18.9060706@softjar.se> References: <4F568D18.9060706@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > The original Zork was way too big, when Infocom was founded and they wanted > to release Zork for microcomputers. So they split Zork into three parts. > Zork 1 is pretty much most of the original Zork, but without parts on the > other side of the river (if I remember right). > Zork 2 is parts of the other side of the river, and then lots of totally new > stuff that does not exist in PDP-10 Zork. Zork 3 is more new stuff that > don't exist in PDP-10 Zork, and then also the endgame, which I remember as > being pretty much straight off the same. I didn't know all that history. My first encounter with Dungeon was when I was 12. My dad taught at ASU, and he arranged for me to "audit" CSC100 (Intro to Computer Science I) because I was such a complete computer geek. I didn't spend the amount of time I would have needed to pass the class writing Oregon Software Pascal II, although I did learn quite a bit more Pascal. I spent the time finding every nook and cranny in the RSTS/E system they had at the University. Taking the course was just a way to get an account. I did solve dungeon though. I used to have the printouts, as I did it on a DECwriter II. (; Later I realised that my dad was entitled to an account. He let me use it. He's completely incapable of using computers. The university told him he had to have one, and when he retired, the same IBM AT was still on his desk (20 + years later). Occasionally, I'd turn it on... it still worked. I had a PDP 11/23 (with r11 on it) but my wife wouldn't let me ship it to England, because there "wasn't room". I fact, there "wasn't room" for my entire obsolete computer collection (Apple //, TRS-80 Model 4p, TRS-80 Model II, etc...) There somehow was room to pack the entire bathroom. It was a relief to unpack rolls of American toilet paper. I'm trying to build up an Engish used computer collection, but it's harder work here. I really want that LISA. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From cb at kryoflux.com Wed Mar 7 04:42:03 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:42:03 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F573B7B.9000004@kryoflux.com> > If this is how you think about others who are trying to preserve data and history, I don't think you should be involved in preservation at all. Thanks for making up my mind in regards to your product. Dave, to be honest, going back to your very first email... I really looks like you had made it up right from the beginning. I have no clue what preservation and the right to do it or not has to do with one's right to stand up against a competitive claim that has proven not to be an issue at all. I also don't know what either product has to do with preservation per definition apart from ingesting data. Preservation is much more than reading some bits, it's making sure the data you have is authentic and valid and can be recreated physically and in emulation any time. From cb at kryoflux.com Wed Mar 7 05:11:35 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:11:35 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F574267.80603@kryoflux.com> Hi Brian, > * I do cost reduce solutions. However, I feel designs should "do no > harm". In other words, the cost reduction might create units that > do not function, but they should never adversely affect the target > vintage equipment. I can assure you that our choice of parts does not harm anything. Unless you actively want to damage the unit (try hot plugging the drive; I still do this all the time), I don't see an issue here. Ask ten architects about how to build a house and I am sure you will get varying results. I would really like to avoid the impression something is broken. It's not, it's working. > * As a fellow enthusiast, I share David's concern over the closed and > guarded nature of the KryoFlux Analyzer. I don't buy the arguments > in the FAQ. I see no issue with letting anyone creating IPFs, as I > feel the community will self select the people who do it well. As > well, it's been my experience that there are lots of very > intelligent people in this community, and one delude themselves > thinking a "complex" solution is not useful to others without > extensive training/education. We have two separate products for this, one is KryoFlux with DTC (the disk tool console) that will completely satisfy many private users. The other is our Analyser that will aid a preservationist to verify authenticity and integrity of data ingested. This is aimed at institutions. We might change that in the future due to many requests, however, we still have to figure out to make sure it's understood as an IDE and that you need to understand how disk coding works, otherwise it's useless. Someone not familiar with C++ also won't have much fun with an IDE for that. If you would have to handle all the feedback and questions, you might see this in a different light. It helps discouraging those that have no serious interest, users that really want it usually just contact us and we arrange for something. As a side note: Everyone is free to come up with their own format or do their own Analyser, no one is forced buying into our solution. > * I disagree with Christian's "audit" response. I don't think the OP > was lamenting the fact that he/she could not audit the source, but > that a closed source product can never be truly "audited", as the > author can always doctor the version provided for audit. And, even > if I am wrong and it can, it creates a perception problem. I can't argue against that. However, it would require criminal energy to pimp or change a version meant for audit. And I don't see why we'd break something in the official version that would only work in the audit version. > * The legal concerns about "conflict of interest" do concern me. > There are precious few people in this area of expertise, I think > it's the responsibility of hardware and software vendors to ensure > such a product or offering does not fragment the group. Christian's > response did not clear things up. I don't understand how " > > What I find interesting is that several of my UK, European and Japanese > contacts (at various computer museums in those countries) were scared > off of working with the DiscFerret. Nearly every one of them cited the > same reason: "conflicts of interest" between assisting with DiscFerret > and using commercial versions of the Kryoflux analysis software (which I > suspect would be CTA or a variant thereof). > > " would get one "thrown out of the 'house'". While it's an unsavory > topic, it's one that demands some type of response. If someone said > that to me, I believe I would send a note to the individual and > request he/she forward it on, assuring them that they can work on > both projects without fear of litigation. There's nothing to clear up, and it does not demand a response. I am not aware of any issues, except what I heard via a mailing list from a competitive developer. To me this is not a trusted source of information. I am in contact with our customers directly. As I said in another reply: There is no NDA involved, no contract, nothing. If someone is scared working with a competitive product that maybe has to do with the quality of the product or the demeanour of the person representing it. If I was to damage a project's reputation in public, such created scenario would for sure fit pretty well. > * I agree that you're paying someone not to develop a solution, but to > *NOT* do something else. I'm a good example. I give up weeknights > and weekends to develop products because I get paid to do so. I > could enjoy another hobby if I was so inclined. That's very well worded and hits the nail on the head. It happens that our "hobby", preserving software, is very costly because it's hard to find a game (or application) in good shape for a decent price these days. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 7 07:52:44 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:52:44 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * William Donzelli [120306 19:28]: > > ?- One seller cancelled my bid five minutes from the end of the auction > > and closed it as "item no longer available." > > A seller can not do this - Ebay will not allow this scenario to > happen. Refer to the selling policy. > > -- > Will Please quote the selling policy as what I've seen in the selling policy states that that's only illegal if a seller does that because they don't like the final price. Short of the seller coming right out and saying that was the case it is practically impossible for eBay to prove that. Many sellers sell locally as well and cancel an auction if the item "sells locally." I've had many sellers also give the "it's broken" after I've won an auction and also tell me "I can't find it in the warehouse." Usually when I've won the auction at a good price (for me.) Though to be fair one of the "I can't find it in the warehouse, we must have sold it locally" sellers came by another similar product and offered it to me for the same price. Todd From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 08:08:54 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:08:54 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > Please quote the selling policy as what I've seen in the selling policy > states that that's only illegal if a seller does that because they don't > like the final price. (sorry for the smooshed formatting) >From Ebay: Requirements Your ability to end a listing early depends on the amount of time remaining in the listing and whether the listing has received any bids. If there are 12 hours or more before the end of the listing, you can end the listing early without restrictions. If there are any bids on your item when you end the listing, you'll be asked whether you want to cancel the bids or sell the item to the high bidder. If there are 12 hours or less before the end of the listing, your ability to end the listing early depends on whether there are any bids on the item and whether the item has a reserve price. Number of bids on the item Can the listing be ended early? No bids, including no canceled bids Yes, as long as there aren't any canceled bids. 1 or more bids Yes, but you must sell the item to the high bidder. 1 or more bids, but the item's reserve price wasn't met No -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 08:13:22 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:13:22 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > Please quote the selling policy as what I've seen in the selling policy > states that that's only illegal if a seller does that because they don't > like the final price. Additionally - you missed the point. According to the Ebay policy, the scenario that was presented *could not* happen. The seller would not have been able to end the auction early with only 5 minutes left and a cancelled bid in the system. The system *will not* allow it, not matter what any of us thinks of it. -- Will From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 7 08:29:25 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:29:25 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Additionally - you missed the point. According to the Ebay policy, the > scenario that was presented *could not* happen. The seller would not > have been able to end the auction early with only 5 minutes left and a > cancelled bid in the system. The system *will not* allow it, not > matter what any of us thinks of it. You'd also think the system would not accidentally tell the seller to send an item to a deleted address, and then strangely list the item as the correct address when it is looked up later, causing the package to vanish. A parcel tracked by Royal Mail (with a tracking number) should not then vanish into thin air. The people who used to work with me, whom I asked to accept delivery of the thing, when it became clear that it was going to the wrong address, shouldn't have returned it anyway. The person who posted it should not have posted it without her return address. Sigh. I think I'm out ?100. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 08:33:10 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:33:10 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <27AE1E20-D8AC-4CED-A01C-FF4C08C3D77E@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2012, at 9:13 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Please quote the selling policy as what I've seen in the selling policy >> states that that's only illegal if a seller does that because they don't >> like the final price. > > Additionally - you missed the point. According to the Ebay policy, the > scenario that was presented *could not* happen. The seller would not > have been able to end the auction early with only 5 minutes left and a > cancelled bid in the system. The system *will not* allow it, not > matter what any of us thinks of it. How recent is that? I certainly saw things like that in days of yore. I don't know how recent the auction in question was, either. - Dave From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 7 09:25:31 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:25:31 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20120307152531.GW3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * William Donzelli [120307 09:10]: > > Please quote the selling policy as what I've seen in the selling policy > > states that that's only illegal if a seller does that because they don't > > like the final price. > > (sorry for the smooshed formatting) > > >From Ebay: > > Requirements > > Your ability to end a listing early depends on the amount of time > remaining in the listing and whether the listing has received any > bids. > > If there are 12 hours or more before the end of the listing, you can > end the listing early without restrictions. If there are any bids on > your item when you end the listing, you'll be asked whether you want > to cancel the bids or sell the item to the high bidder. > > If there are 12 hours or less before the end of the listing, your > ability to end the listing early depends on whether there are any bids > on the item and whether the item has a reserve price. > > Number of bids on the item > Can the listing be ended early? > No bids, including no canceled bids > Yes, as long as there aren't any canceled bids. > 1 or more bids > Yes, but you must sell the item to the high bidder. > 1 or more bids, but the item's reserve price wasn't met > No > > -- > Will Thank you Will. I certainly didn't see that when I've looked through the sellers rules on eBay. Todd From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 7 09:30:54 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * William Donzelli [120307 09:17]: > > Please quote the selling policy as what I've seen in the selling policy > > states that that's only illegal if a seller does that because they don't > > like the final price. > > Additionally - you missed the point. According to the Ebay policy, the > scenario that was presented *could not* happen. The seller would not > have been able to end the auction early with only 5 minutes left and a > cancelled bid in the system. The system *will not* allow it, not > matter what any of us thinks of it. > > -- > Will I don't think I missed the point. I have certainly seen that happen. Perhaps it was six minutes early. Frankly, I consider cancelling it in the last day of listing as suspicious. In any case, my beef is more with the sellers who cancel the auction after I'm a winning bidder. Stuff happens and I know not all of the sellers who do that have ill intent, but it happens much more often than I'd like and I haven't found any recourse to eBay with regards to it. In fact, I was just issued a refund minutes ago after paying for two of an item (the auction was for two) when the seller realized they didn't have two. I have no reason to believe it to be any other reason than a mistake or carelessness on their part, but it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. TOdd From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 09:35:14 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:35:14 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <27AE1E20-D8AC-4CED-A01C-FF4C08C3D77E@gmail.com> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <27AE1E20-D8AC-4CED-A01C-FF4C08C3D77E@gmail.com> Message-ID: > How recent is that? ?I certainly saw things like that in days of yore. ?I > don't know how recent the auction in question was, either. Quite some years, I think. But yes, in the early days, Ebay was like the wild West, and all sorts of shenanigans could be had. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 09:39:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:39:39 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > Perhaps it was six minutes early. ?Frankly, I consider cancelling it in > the last day of listing as suspicious. It would have to have been 12 hours and 1 second earlier. I am not defending the dirtbag seller - but just pointing out something that bugs me. There tends to be a good amount of exaggeration when it comes to describing Ebay seller horror stories. Exaggerating the facts does not help anyone. Hmmm...nobody exaggerates the Ebay success stories. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 09:56:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2012, at 10:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Hmmm...nobody exaggerates the Ebay success stories. I mean, if you got an AS/400 for $0.99, it's kind of hard to exaggerate unless you said you got it for a penny, and what difference does that make? :-) Kidding aside, I do tend to gloss over the nuances of the time I got a Wurlitzer 200 for a steal on eBay. I had to drive up to north central NJ from Columbia, MD (about a 4 hour drive each way) after work, and it had a busted amp, but $500 was still a steal for one in good mechanical condition. It's one of my favorite eBay finds ever, and I just tell people I got a Wurlitzer 200 in good shape (red case, even) for $500. - Dave From technobug at comcast.net Wed Mar 7 10:00:50 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:00:50 -0700 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 Mar 2012 at 20:15, David Riley wrote: > I should also point out that all of the original Macintosh > prototypes were wire-wrapped, which should probably indicate that it's > a pretty sound methodology for assembling microcomputers. It worked > well enough in '83, anyway. In the latter half of the '70s, I ran a Modcomp II that was mounted in a trailer. The computer, with the exception of the power supplies, was entirely wire-wrapped. During the 10k miles that we put on the beast, the only failures were the capacitors in the power supplies coming unscrewed and a bad lot of 74S172s. That computer was the easiest machine I have ever worked on to maintain. -> CRC From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 7 10:03:54 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:03:54 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:56 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 7, 2012, at 10:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Hmmm...nobody exaggerates the Ebay success stories. > > I mean, if you got an AS/400 for $0.99, it's kind of > hard to exaggerate unless you said you got it for a penny, > and what difference does that make? :-) > I got a MAC SE for ?5 but the analogue board has died. I can't find a euro analogue board anywhere... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 10:21:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:21:01 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <743F93C0-A600-47E9-B115-A1850926AC51@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2012, at 11:03 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > I got a MAC SE for ?5 but the analogue board has died. I can't find a > euro analogue board anywhere... I have a dead-tree copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls, which has repair instructions on the whole machine, including things like analog boards. It covers at least to the SE. If you can describe the problem (other than just "it's dead, Jim", though I'm sure there are a few pages on that, too), I could probably scan a few relevant pages and send them your way. - Dave From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 7 10:25:56 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:25:56 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20120307162556.GY3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * William Donzelli [120307 10:47]: > > Perhaps it was six minutes early. ?Frankly, I consider cancelling it in > > the last day of listing as suspicious. > > It would have to have been 12 hours and 1 second earlier. OK > > I am not defending the dirtbag seller - but just pointing out > something that bugs me. There tends to be a good amount of > exaggeration when it comes to describing Ebay seller horror stories. > Exaggerating the facts does not help anyone. Yes, understood. But as I said, a cancellation within the last day is suspicious to me. And after the fact really sours me to the experience. > > Hmmm...nobody exaggerates the Ebay success stories. > > -- > Will There are eBay success stories? Seriously, being the winning bidder on multiple thousand auctions I have found that the majority of sellers seem to be honest and comunicative. With the state that USPS, UPS, and Fedex have delivered packages to me I've had many chances to contact sellers with respect to items broken in shipping (some due to mindboggling poor packing and some just mindboggling in how the shipping agent managed to damage it.) Many sellers have been very good and responsive to that as well. And in the cases where they have not, eBay's resolution process has been a positive experience (though I'd usually much rather have the item in good condition than get my money back.) Todd From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 7 10:30:49 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:30:49 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <743F93C0-A600-47E9-B115-A1850926AC51@gmail.com> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> <743F93C0-A600-47E9-B115-A1850926AC51@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 7, 2012, at 11:03 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > >> I got a MAC SE for ?5 but the analogue board has died. ?I can't find a >> euro analogue board anywhere... > > I have a dead-tree copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls, which has > repair instructions on the whole machine, including things > like analog boards. ?It covers at least to the SE. ?If you > can describe the problem (other than just "it's dead, Jim", > though I'm sure there are a few pages on that, too), I > could probably scan a few relevant pages and send them > your way. (: I used to be a Mac tech... at a Mac repair center. The symptom was a typical analog board dead symptom. When she who must be obeyed (and likes to ship toilet paper but not computers) isn't looking, I'll power it up and let you know! I miss my Mac II... she wouldn't ship it either... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 7 09:31:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 07:31:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In the end I did succeed, but had the rack slipped (which it almost > did do!) I would probably have severely regretted the consequences. > Fortunately the lesson was learned without pain. I never again tried > to move up a flight a stairs a rack that's over 5% taller than me and > nearly as heavy as me by myself without straps/ramps/wheels/mechanical > and/or human assistance. > ObRackMisadventure... In 1994 I became the proud owner of a VAX 8250. (I even got to remove it form the machine room at Mannesmann Tally in Kent) One of the three racks held a TU81+ tape drive and nothing else. Since my friend and I were breaking the machine down and moving it to the upstairs of my house, we removed the tape drive from the top of the cabinet and proceeded to nearly kill ourselves squeezing this huge cabinet up a tiny, residential staircase. Only after getting to the top of the stairs do we discover the two 50+ lb steel balance plates that are bolted to the insides of the frame. *facepalm* The other two racks were shoved straight up the staircase after taping a section of carpet to the top corner of the cabinet to act as a "gliding surface". My back still twinges thinking about that day. The four RA-81 drives were no picnic either. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 7 11:21:05 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:21:05 -0600 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F574267.80603@kryoflux.com> References: <4F574267.80603@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4F579901.9080407@jbrain.com> On 3/7/2012 5:11 AM, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > I can assure you that our choice of parts does not harm anything. > Unless you actively want to > damage the unit (try hot plugging the drive; I still do this all the > time), I don't see an issue here. Though I was not specifically responding to the concerns over KryoFlux, I would refer not to the input protection response, but this one: "and there's lack of protection overall, especially in the power supply.". > Ask ten architects about how to build a house and I am sure you will > get varying results. I think you will get 10 different specific implementations, all most likely based around 1 or 2 design philosophies. > I would really like to avoid the impression something is broken. It's > not, it's working. I think it would be helpful to address the power supply protection concern. Rightly or otherwise, prospective customers could conjecture that this might impact or damage their precious disk drive mechanisms or electronics. > We have two separate products for this, one is KryoFlux with DTC (the > disk tool console) that > will completely satisfy many private users. The other is our Analyser > that will aid a preservationist > to verify authenticity and integrity of data ingested. This is aimed > at institutions. We might change > that in the future due to many requests, however, we still have to > figure out to make sure it's > understood as an IDE and that you need to understand how disk coding > works, otherwise it's > useless. Someone not familiar with C++ also won't have much fun with > an IDE for that. I took my position from "http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1230. At least with ZoomFloppy, people expect to both image and write disks with the product. From the FAQ, I see that DTC will not write file back to disk, but Analyzer can. If the FAQ is wrong, I based my concern on invalid information. > If you would have to handle all the feedback and questions, you might > see this in a different light. > It helps discouraging those that have no serious interest, users that > really want it usually just contact > us and we arrange for something. I do have to handle feedback and questions for such a product, and I understand it's a pain at times. However, since your tool images more obscure formats and drive mechanisms, I struggle with the idea that there are a huge number of uninterested folks who want the tool but aren't savvy enough to learn it. This is, admittedly, a very elite group in this space. > As a side note: Everyone is free to come up with their own format or > do their own Analyser, > no one is forced buying into our solution. I understand, but having to re-invent a tool just because the company won't provide it for folks just rubs the wrong way. People like to "enhance" or "augment" a tool, not re-invent it. > There's nothing to clear up, and it does not demand a response. I am > not aware of any issues, > except what I heard via a mailing list from a competitive developer. > To me this is not a trusted > source of information. I am in contact with our customers directly. As > I said in another reply: > There is no NDA involved, no contract, nothing. I think your "does not demand a response" itself is a response. When people "google" for this thread, they'll no doubt find this response. I can't carry the ball further here, I have no horse in this race. I think simply responding to it puts the focus back on others. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 7 11:55:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120307095121.H36301@shell.lmi.net> > > Hmmm...nobody exaggerates the Ebay success stories. > I mean, if you got an AS/400 for $0.99, it's kind of > hard to exaggerate unless you said you got it for a penny, > and what difference does that make? :-) THREE for a penny! . . . or the one that they paid me to haul away; the only thing wrong with it was that a stack of Krugerrands stashed inside it fell over and temporarily shorted one of the bus signals? (cf: early Pong coinbox) From doc at vaxen.net Wed Mar 7 12:09:31 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:09:31 -0600 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F573B7B.9000004@kryoflux.com> References: <4F573B7B.9000004@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4F57A45B.3050208@vaxen.net> On 3/7/12 4:42 AM, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > >> If this is how you think about others who are trying to preserve data >> and history, I don't think you should be involved in preservation at >> all. Thanks for making up my mind in regards to your product. > > Dave, to be honest, going back to your very first email... I really > looks like you had made it up right from the beginning. I have no clue > what preservation and the right to do it or not has to do with one's > right to stand up against a competitive claim that has proven not to be > an issue at all. I also don't know what either product has to do with > preservation per definition apart from ingesting data. Preservation is > much more than reading some bits, it's making sure the data you have is > authentic and valid and can be recreated physically and in emulation any > time. Look, I don't have a dog in this race. I'm not likely to need nor purchase either Kryoflux or DiscFerret. However, I've watched variations of this same thread every time DiscFerret or Kryoflux comes up, and I think I can simplify the issue. Christian, the basic import of all your posts boil down to this: "Don't hate Kryoflux because it's closed source. It doesn't matter! REALLY!" And the overwhelming response from this community is that it does, and we do. HTH, HAND, KTHXBYE. Doc From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 7 12:23:13 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:23:13 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:59:21 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > In the end I did succeed, but had the rack slipped (which it almost > did do!) I would probably have severely regretted the consequences. > Fortunately the lesson was learned without pain. I never again tried > to move up a flight a stairs a rack that's over 5% taller than me and > nearly as heavy as me by myself without straps/ramps/wheels/mechanical > and/or human assistance. Well. Remove everything that you can remove easyly so that only the four posts, bottom and top are left over. Lay the rack on its left or right side. Step _into_ the rack so that you look at the bottom. Pick it up, so that the posts stay horizontal. You have to try a bit to find the right position to grab to have the whole thing in balance. Now walk. Surprisingly easy. I even got a rack upstairs that way. > Is there clearance between the side of the H960 and the grey sides for > the M6 bolt heads, or does your rack lack the hang-on metal sides? There is plenty of space. The rivertrs aren't that small too. Ohhh, sorry. I just noticed that my racks are not H960. They look much more than the aforementioned SA600 rack. That confused me. So they may be of the H9612 / H9613 variety. Actually the H960 is welded. My PDP-11/34A came in a H960. I had to leave the rack behind as I could not dismount it. It didn't fit my car... :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 12:39:14 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:39:14 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F57A45B.3050208@vaxen.net> References: <4F573B7B.9000004@kryoflux.com> <4F57A45B.3050208@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 7 March 2012 18:09, Doc Shipley wrote: > > ?Look, I don't have a dog in this race. ?I'm not likely to need nor purchase > either Kryoflux or DiscFerret. > > ?However, I've watched variations of this same thread every time DiscFerret > or Kryoflux comes up, and I think I can simplify the issue. > > ?Christian, the basic import of all your posts boil down to this: > > "Don't hate Kryoflux because it's closed source. ?It doesn't matter! > REALLY!" > > ?And the overwhelming response from this community is that it does, and we > do. > > ? ? ? ?HTH, HAND, KTHXBYE. > ? ? ? ?Doc +1 This. What he said, all of it. I am not religious about open source - I use closed-source apps for various things. However, for data-archival purposes, it is pretty much /essential./ I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 12:42:43 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:42:43 -0500 Subject: Moving DEC racks (was Re: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois) Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:59:21 -0500 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> In the end I did succeed, but had the rack slipped (which it almost >> did do!) I would probably have severely regretted the consequences. > > Well. Remove everything that you can remove easyly so that only the > four posts, bottom and top are left over. Lay the rack on its left or > right side. Step _into_ the rack so that you look at the bottom. Pick > it up, so that the posts stay horizontal. You have to try a bit to find > the right position to grab to have the whole thing in balance. Now > walk. Surprisingly easy. I even got a rack upstairs that way. I understand the technique, and for a straight stairway, I think it would work just fine. In the 100-year-old house I was doing this in, there's a landing and a 90 degree turn to the left in the middle. The top of the rack would hit the wall while the bottom of the rack was still 3-4 stairs from the landing. Oh... and there was a stained-glass window at the landing as well (not broken by me, but later, when someone was moving a mattress, the window did not fare well). The rack had to go up the stairs nearly perfectly upright, except for the middle of the stairs, when it had to be tipped back about 10 degrees to clear the sloped ceiling. Again... I will never repeat that experience solo. I almost ended up at the bottom of the stairs under the rack. >> Is there clearance between the side of the H960 and the grey sides for >> the M6 bolt heads, or does your rack lack the hang-on metal sides? > There is plenty of space. The rivertrs aren't that small too. > > Ohhh, sorry. I just noticed that my racks are not H960. They look much > more than the aforementioned SA600 rack. That confused me. So they may > be of the H9612 / H9613 variety. Actually the H960 is welded. My > PDP-11/34A came in a H960. I had to leave the rack behind as I could > not dismount it. It didn't fit my car... :-( Gotcha. I remembered that some racks had the cluster of large pop rivets and some were welded but I wasn't sure which were which by model number. I spend more time in front of the machines than figuring out how to move the empty racks up impossible inclines or into impossibly small automobiles. A VW Microbus, BTW, can haul two H960s if you drop the rear seat and remove the middle seat - you just slide them in one at a time and load the middle area where the bench seat used to be with all the CPUs and disks you just removed from the racks. Easiest time ever. *That* works solo. Second easiest move was a VAX-11/750 in an Astro Minivan with no middle seats. The only hitch was the swivel chair mounts were taller than the casters, so the bottom of the VAX hung up on insertion and removal. Even so, it was still possible (and safe) solo. An 11/750 is mostly air and not as heavy as some things of similar size (like tape drives). -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 7 13:17:11 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 19:17:11 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/04 w/RX01 and spares available, Cambs UK Message-ID: Folks, I know a few people who'll be interested in this, given my recent need to find a new home (again) for me and my collection I need to shift more DEC stuff, in this case a PDP 11/04 with boxes of spare core etc and a complete RX01 floppy drive. The machine's PSU is toast (and set to 110V, beware!) which is why we got it at work in the first place, but that's all that's wrong with it. Shipping isn't an option unless you've got deep pockets I guess, so collection from Cambs in the UK, postcode CB6 please. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 13:18:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:18:37 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4F57B48D.1090902@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 01:23 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Well. Remove everything that you can remove easyly so that only the > four posts, bottom and top are left over. Lay the rack on its left or > right side. Step _into_ the rack so that you look at the bottom. Pick > it up, so that the posts stay horizontal. You have to try a bit to find > the right position to grab to have the whole thing in balance. Now > walk. Surprisingly easy. I even got a rack upstairs that way. I chuckled when I read that H960s are hard to move...I've moved lots of them exactly this way. It really is the best way to do it if you can't just roll it somewhere. They've gotta be the lightest racks (empty) in the industry. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 13:19:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:19:47 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> <743F93C0-A600-47E9-B115-A1850926AC51@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F57B4D3.30603@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 11:30 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > I used to be a Mac tech... at a Mac repair center. The symptom was a > typical analog board dead symptom. When she who must be obeyed (and > likes to ship toilet paper but not computers) isn't looking, I'll > power it up and let you know! > > I miss my Mac II... she wouldn't ship it either... We've really gotta get you a new wife. I'll be hitting some surplus places next week; I'll keep me eyes open. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 13:37:24 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:37:24 -0600 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <4F57B48D.1090902@neurotica.com> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F57B48D.1090902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I've moved hundreds of H960's and learned a lot of tricks- mostly good. I could 2 on the floor of my van and a 3ed on top. Anybody else on here ever move an 11/70 in a corporate cab down several flights of stairs in a commercial building? Remember, they don't come apart- CPU, memory, expansion all in one. Paul On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/07/2012 01:23 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> >> Well. Remove everything that you can remove easyly so that only the >> four posts, bottom and top are left over. Lay the rack on its left or >> right side. Step _into_ the rack so that you look at the bottom. Pick >> it up, so that the posts stay horizontal. You have to try a bit to find >> the right position to grab to have the whole thing in balance. Now >> walk. Surprisingly easy. I even got a rack upstairs that way. > > > ?I chuckled when I read that H960s are hard to move...I've moved lots of > them exactly this way. ?It really is the best way to do it if you can't just > roll it somewhere. ?They've gotta be the lightest racks (empty) in the > industry. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From dave12 at dunfield.com Wed Mar 7 13:45:00 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:45:00 -0500 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted Message-ID: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> Just an FYI : I've posted a minor ImageDisk update to my site (It's been a while!) Nothing major: - Added IMDA (ImageDisk Analyze) utility to examine a .IMD image and suggest drive types and settings that can be used to write it (a lot of people seem to have trouble with this) - Added a couple of batch file to automate presetting a .IMD comment from a text file, and extracting/editing/replacing the .IMD comment. - Enhance DMK2IMD to detect and provide a work-around for images with bad address marks apparently produced by some emulators. - Update .IMD file format specification to provide for representing disks with non-standard sector sizes or mixed sector sizes within a track. - Minor documentation and help files updates. I've also posted a raw binary floppy image (suitable for XDISK, Winimage etc.) to create a 1.44M bootable ImageDisk floppy that: - Has USB mass-storage and CD/CVD support. - Allows you to set a RAMdisk size when it boots, and runs from the RAMdisk after boot - so you can boot from a floppy and then read/write images to and from the RAMdisk (and USB mass storage). - Has tools to move files to/from the RAMdisk via: Network** (FTP, TFTP, DDLINK) Serial or LPT (DDLINK, XMODEM) **Over 100 network drivers are on the disk. - Can be used for a bootable CD/DVD. This might be useful to anyone who doesn't want to dedicate a DOS partition. -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 13:53:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:53:08 -0500 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted In-Reply-To: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F57BCA4.2000606@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 02:45 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've also posted a raw binary floppy image (suitable for > XDISK, Winimage etc.) to create a 1.44M bootable > ImageDisk floppy that: > > - Has USB mass-storage and CD/CVD support. > > - Allows you to set a RAMdisk size when it boots, and > runs from the RAMdisk after boot - so you can boot > from a floppy and then read/write images to and from > the RAMdisk (and USB mass storage). > > - Has tools to move files to/from the RAMdisk via: > Network** (FTP, TFTP, DDLINK) > Serial or LPT (DDLINK, XMODEM) > **Over 100 network drivers are on the disk. > > - Can be used for a bootable CD/DVD. > > This might be useful to anyone who doesn't want to > dedicate a DOS partition. Hey, that's a damn fine idea! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave12 at dunfield.com Wed Mar 7 14:03:46 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:03:46 -0500 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted In-Reply-To: <4F57BCA4.2000606@neurotica.com> References: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com>, <4F57BCA4.2000606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F57BF22.4077.5BAE46@dave12.dunfield.com> On 7 Mar 2012 at 14:53, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/07/2012 02:45 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I've also posted a raw binary floppy image (suitable for > > XDISK, Winimage etc.) to create a 1.44M bootable > > ImageDisk floppy that: > > > > - Has USB mass-storage and CD/CVD support. > > > > - Allows you to set a RAMdisk size when it boots, and > > runs from the RAMdisk after boot - so you can boot > > from a floppy and then read/write images to and from > > the RAMdisk (and USB mass storage). > > > > - Has tools to move files to/from the RAMdisk via: > > Network** (FTP, TFTP, DDLINK) > > Serial or LPT (DDLINK, XMODEM) > > **Over 100 network drivers are on the disk. > > > > - Can be used for a bootable CD/DVD. > > > > This might be useful to anyone who doesn't want to > > dedicate a DOS partition. > > Hey, that's a damn fine idea! Please do give me feedback on how this works and any particular glitches or gotchas that you encounter. This is the first time I've posted the ImageDisk one, but I've been using variations of this disk internally for a while (I've made a CD with about a dozen really useful bootable floppy images to pick from when it boots). Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Mar 7 14:26:16 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:26:16 +0000 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, can't resist an opportunity for a plug. You can see a Mathatronics, Programma 101 and an HP 9845 all in one gallery at The National Museum of Computing (UK). I'll go you one further! You can also see contemporary Freiden, Wang plus assorted other systems nearby. If you sign up to volunteer with us, and have the requisite skill set, etc., etc., you might get to run and maintain the little beggars as well. Go on, you know you want to! -- Colin Rick Bensene wrote: Liam Proven wrote: > > The "Program 101": > Warning - long rambling response.... It was actually called the Programma 101, or "P101" for short. It was a stored-program desktop programmable calculator. Its development began in 1962. It was not introduced to the market in Europe until 1964, and wasn't available formally in the US market until the fall of 1965 (though some did make it into the US prior to then via informal methods). There were a number of other electronic calculators had come on the scene prior to the P101, including one machine that was also a stored program calculator called the Mathatronics Mathatron. Though the Mathatron did not have offline storage for its programs, it did use core memory which was non-volatile, so programs were not lost when the machine was powered off, while the P101 did lose its memory when turned off (it used magnetostrictive delay lines), making offline storage of programs and data more of a requirement. The Mathatron could do everything that the P101 could with the exception of magnetic card functionality, and it was introduced in the US almost two years prior to the P101. Was the Mathatron a personal computer? Not by my definition. The claim that the P101 was the first-ever "Personal Computer" is debatable, though the father of the machine, Pier Girogio Perotto, insisted that it was the first personal computer until the day he died. Before he died, I debated this with him via Email (though it was interesting, as I had to use translators to/from Italian). He was insistent despite my arguments to the contrary. In my opinion, the machine should be classed as one of the earliest desktop learn-mode programmable calculators (though it wasn't the first..the Mathatron was), not a personal computer. It had a lot of the characteristics of a computer, in that it was programmable, it had a magnetic card for writing out programs and data, and reading them back in. It had a serial printer that could both record output of calculations and programs, and could also list out programs. It was a numeric-only printer, with special characters for annotation (math function, memory register identification). It couldn't print general text. It could add, subtract, multiply and divide, along with calculating square root and absolute value as built-in functions. Programs had to be written for other functions such as logarithms and trig. It wasn't terribly fast, especially when executing programs, because each program step had to be "waited for" as it circulated through the delay line, and memory register access also was serial in nature. It was capable of simple conditional branching. It had a number of memory registers (quite limited) that could store variables and constants. The machine was an all transistor design (no ICs), and used a magnetostrictive delay line for register and program step storage. The keyboard and printer were heavy mechanical devices more reminiscent of a mechanical desktop calculator. Programs were "learned" into the machine by entering the steps from the keyboard a step at a time. It did not have peripheral interfacing capabilities, so the machine was what it was with no real means for expansion or additional peripheral devices. Given that it had very limited memory capacity, and variable storage registers were traded off for program steps, it could only do so much, though through clever use of the mag cards, programs could be "chained" and larger capacity for programs and data created. However, it required manual operation to load/unload cards, and slowed down the process. The machine was capable of some pretty amazing calculations, including its use by NASA for calculating antenna aiming information for the US Apollo spacecraft program. Personal computer? There were machines that significantly predated it that were more capable, and could be considered "personal". The Stanley Frankel-designed Royal McBee/General Precision LGP-30 (1956) was a true computer, that could easily be used at a personal level. It was fully programmable, had peripheral interfacing capabilities, had a versatile I/O typewriter that could do both text and numbers, and plugged into a standard electrical outlet. It had much more memory (magnetic drum-based), and much larger programs could be written, though in order to do math like could be done simply on the P101, math routines had to be written, along with I/O routines to accept input and print output. Monroe, in the early to mid-1950's had "desk-sized" (not desktop) machines called the Monrobot series that could do more than the P101 and were more computer-like in their later models. Clary also built the DE-60, another desk-sized programmable calculator that was computer-like. IBM's 610 "Auto-Point" calculator was a very capable stored program calculator/computer that could out-perform the P101, but it was quite large and expensive. All of these machines came about in the 1950's, quite a long time before the Programma 101 came out. These machines could potentially be considered "Personal Computers" before the P101 was even a concept. The Programma 101 was pretty simple to program, probably less complicated than these earlier machines, but that also limited it capabilities. The key things that the P101 had going for it was that it was a desktop machine (though rather large and heavy - 80 pounds), and it was comparatively inexpensive, selling for around $3900. These predecessors didn't fit on a desk (though the Mathatron was a desktop machine, though it took up quite a bit of square footage on an average desk), and were significantly more expensive. Was the P101 the first personal computer? My opinion is that it isn't, but then some might argue. Some consider the Berkeley SIMON computer, developed in the late 1940s, with articles on how to build the relay-based machine published in Radio Electronics in the early 1950's, to be the first personal computer. Some also consider HP's 9100A calculator (1968) the first personal computer. This calculator made everything developed prior to it look like a toy. It had much larger memory capacity, had logs and trig built-in, was an all-transistor microcoded design, and could interface to a significant number of peripherals including plotters, printers, extended memory, and even custom interfaces made for instrumentation control systems. But in my mind, it was still a calculator, though an extremely powerful one. My personal definition of the first real desktop personal computer would be the HP 9830. It had a full alphanumeric keyboard and display, was programmed in BASIC, had large memory capacity, could interface to a wide range of peripherals (plotters, printers, storage, instrumentation interfaces, telecommunications). It could be used as a calculator by simply typing in math expressions and pressing a key, and the answer would be displayed. It was introduced in 1972. It sat on a desk, and was easily usable in a productive fashion by anyone after spending a little time reading through the well-written manual. All that said, the P101 was an amazing machine for its time. It was immensely popular, and spawned some follow-on machines from Olivetti that improved on its capabilities. However, HP's domination of the high-end programmable calculator market beginning with the 9100A eventually knocked Olivetti out of that line of business, though Olivetti did stick with producing office calculators for some time. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Mar 7 14:33:04 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 21:33:04 +0100 Subject: Movie of ETH Lilith Comdex demo Message-ID: <4F57C600.4080109@bluewin.ch> I put op a movie of the demo that Diser displayed at Comdex to advertise the Lilith. It give a decent display of its capabilities. Too bad I don't know which year's Comdex it was.... Find the movie LilithComdexDemo.mpg at ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ Its a 30MB download, 5 min long, and created with my Lilith emulator. A complete and compilable Medos V4.2 should be available in a few weeks time. Enjoy, Jos From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 7 14:39:13 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:39:13 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <4F57B4D3.30603@neurotica.com> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> <743F93C0-A600-47E9-B115-A1850926AC51@gmail.com> <4F57B4D3.30603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?We've really gotta get you a new wife. ?I'll be hitting some surplus places > next week; I'll keep me eyes open. Heh. Thanks for looking! (for both things.) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 7 13:38:55 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:38:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> <743F93C0-A600-47E9-B115-A1850926AC51@gmail.com> <4F57B4D3.30603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ?We've really gotta get you a new wife. ?I'll be hitting some surplus places >> next week; I'll keep me eyes open. > > Heh. Thanks for looking! (for both things.) > You could always remove the "my things are more important than your junk" patch. (it interferes with the "screw like a mink" update as well) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 7 15:53:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:53:55 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders Message-ID: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/220970605899 This ICBM COMPUTER is one of ONLY 10 that were armed and ready to fire at Russia or anyone else if necessary during the cold war arms race. These are credited for stopping the soviet union from placing nuclear missiles in CUBA in 1960 to 1962. They were decommissioned by the strategic are command and the hard drive and memory banks were erased. This is the first personnel computer that could run with commands on its' own. The movie Dr. Strangelove was a scary horror comedy about these missiles and the people that might push the button, and not be able to stop if needed. -- This this is clearly a dangerous munition, so I've reported it to eBay. I would suggest others do the same, for the safely of our children and our precious bodily essence. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 7 16:04:46 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:04:46 +0000 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > This this is clearly a dangerous munition, so I've reported it to eBay. > I would suggest others do the same, for the safely of our children and our > precious bodily essence. Mandrake, have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 7 16:07:17 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:07:17 -0700 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F565053.21950.1E295BF at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 6 Mar 2012 at 20:15, David Riley wrote: > > > I should also point out that all of the original Macintosh > > prototypes were wire-wrapped, which should probably indicate that it's > > a pretty sound methodology for assembling microcomputers. It worked > > well enough in '83, anyway. > > Unless my memory has completely failed me, some microprocessor > prototypes were first done up in wirewrap before going to silicon. > And there were plenty of wirewrapped backplanes. The Nuclear Data ND812 CPU is all wire-wrapped SSI/MSI 7400 series logic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 7 16:13:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:13:56 -0700 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <20120307162556.GY3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307162556.GY3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: In article <20120307162556.GY3334 at ns1.bonedaddy.net>, Todd Goodman writes: > There are eBay success stories? Yes, I'm one of them. It would have been nearly impossible to gather the collection of my museum together without ebay. There are things that frustrate me about ebay and definitely things that frustrate me about sellers on ebay, but for the most part I'm happy with it, which is why I keep using it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 7 16:16:42 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:16:42 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:07:17 MST.) References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The Nuclear Data ND812 CPU is all wire-wrapped SSI/MSI 7400 series logic. Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap on board was the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open-small.jpg De From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 16:10:44 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:10:44 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. On 3/7/2012 1:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/220970605899 > > This ICBM COMPUTER is one of ONLY 10 that were armed and ready to > fire at Russia or anyone else if necessary during the cold war arms race. > > These are credited for stopping the soviet union from placing nuclear > missiles in CUBA in 1960 to 1962. > > They were decommissioned by the strategic are command and the hard > drive and memory banks were erased. > > This is the first personnel computer that could run with commands on > its' own. > > The movie Dr. Strangelove was a scary horror comedy about these > missiles and the people that might push the button, and not be able to > stop if needed. > > > -- > > This this is clearly a dangerous munition, so I've reported it to eBay. > I would suggest others do the same, for the safely of our children and > our precious bodily essence. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 16:31:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:31:14 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307162556.GY3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <4F57E1B2.4040909@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 05:13 PM, Richard wrote: >> There are eBay success stories? > > Yes, I'm one of them. It would have been nearly impossible to gather > the collection of my museum together without ebay. There are things > that frustrate me about ebay and definitely things that frustrate me > about sellers on ebay, but for the most part I'm happy with it, which > is why I keep using it. I have to voice agreement here, as odd as that may be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 16:33:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:33:11 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F57E227.3000100@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 05:16 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > The Nuclear Data ND812 CPU is all wire-wrapped SSI/MSI 7400 series logic. > > Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap on board was > the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: > > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open-small.jpg Many (most?) DEC backplanes, like the PDP-11/70: http://www.neurotica.com/albums/pdp1170/DSCN1161.JPG -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 7 16:35:36 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:35:36 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:10:44 PST.) <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> References: <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120307223536.8DB31A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate > box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. "With free shipping supplies in eleven different sizes, Flat Rate options, and no weighing or calculating, Priority Mail Flat Rate service is a simpler way to ship. And with delivery in about 2 days, Priority Mail Flat Rate Boxes and Envelopes are fast and affordable." :) De From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 16:35:51 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:35:51 -0500 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F57E2C7.2090206@snarc.net> > Personal computer? There were machines that significantly predated it > that were more capable, and could be considered "personal". I don't know enough about this particular machine to conclude whether it was or wasn't a personal computer. But it's fair to reason that the designer, in talking to you, specifically meant personal "desktop" computer. > Was the P101 the first personal computer? My opinion is that it isn't, > but then some might argue. Some consider the Berkeley SIMON computer, > developed in the late 1940s, with articles on how to build the > relay-based machine published in Radio Electronics in the early 1950's, > to be the first personal computer. Again, I'm not (yet) taking a stand either way, but if the P101 was fully electronic, vs. your earlier examples which aren't, then that's another qualifier: it stands to reason that the designer meant "personal desktop-sized fully electronic computer." To be clear: do you not consider the P101 a "computer" at all? If so, then what's your distinction between "calculator" and "computer" when the 101 has conditional branching? From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 16:36:59 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:36:59 -0500 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F57E30B.20301@snarc.net> > >> From: lproven at gmail.com >> >> The "Program 101": >> >> http://english.pravda.ru/history/07-03-2012/120702-Program_101_first_personal_computer-0/ >> >> Thoughts? I've never even heard of this product before. >> > Hi > It was a programable calculator. > One could almost say it was a computer because > it did have a conditional branch. Programs could > be saved on magnetic cards. It used delay lines > for registers and memory. > I wouldn't call it a computer. Why not? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 7 16:43:50 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:43:50 +0000 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/7/12 1:53 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >http://www.ebay.com/itm/220970605899 > >This ICBM COMPUTER is one of ONLY 10 that were armed and ready to fire >at Russia or anyone else if necessary during the cold war arms race. > >These are credited for stopping the soviet union from placing nuclear >missiles in CUBA in 1960 to 1962. > >They were decommissioned by the strategic are command and the hard drive >and memory banks were erased. > >This is the first personnel computer that could run with commands on its' >own. > >The movie Dr. Strangelove was a scary horror comedy about these missiles >and the people that might push the button, and not be able to stop if >needed. > > >-- > >This this is clearly a dangerous munition, so I've reported it to eBay. >I would suggest others do the same, for the safely of our children and >our precious bodily essence. Why might a desktop computer be superior to a laptop? Because when one's response to a post like this causes one to emit a spray/stream of one's current beverage of choice, you're only replacing a keyboard, not the whole device. :-) I note that this listing has since been removed from eBay. Really, no kidding. -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 16:48:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:48:51 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2012 at 14:10, DC wrote: > I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate > box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. Given a 50-ton hydraulic press, you might be able to cram most of it in a large flat-rate box... --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 7 16:51:06 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:51:06 +0000 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 3/7/12 10:23 AM, "Jochen Kunz" wrote: >Ohhh, sorry. I just noticed that my racks are not H960. They look much >more than the aforementioned SA600 rack. That confused me. So they may >be of the H9612 / H9613 variety. Actually the H960 is welded. My >PDP-11/34A came in a H960. I had to leave the rack behind as I could >not dismount it. It didn't fit my car... :-( >-- > Jochen, that's why you always bring a tow rope. Seems to me those old DEC casters ought to be good for 20-30 km/h?. :-) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 7 16:51:07 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:51:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: > Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap on board was > the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: > > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open-small.jpg The central computer (Hughes H5118ME) of the AN/FYQ-93 air defense system had a slightly larger backplane, all wire-wrapped. It didn't generally cause problems, unless someone was fooling around in the back. It took us 5 days to track down a connection problem on the backplane once, eventually doing point-to-point continuity checks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 7 16:54:49 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:54:49 +0000 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/7/12 12:26 PM, "Colin Eby" wrote: >Sorry, can't resist an opportunity for a plug. > >You can see a Mathatronics, Programma 101 and an HP 9845 all in one >gallery at The National Museum of Computing (UK). I'll go you one >further! You can also see contemporary Freiden, Wang plus assorted other >systems nearby. > >If you sign up to volunteer with us, and have the requisite skill set, >etc., etc., you might get to run and maintain the little beggars as well. > >Go on, you know you want to! >-- Colin The commute could get expensive. But you do have an awesome collection. -- Ian From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 17:03:53 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:03:53 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <20120307223536.8DB31A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <20120307223536.8DB31A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F57E959.4070602@gmail.com> an introducing the all new Minuteman size flat rate box for 2012 ! On 3/7/2012 2:35 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate > > box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. > > "With free shipping supplies in eleven different sizes, Flat Rate > options, and no weighing or calculating, Priority Mail Flat Rate service > is a simpler way to ship. And with delivery in about 2 days, Priority > Mail Flat Rate Boxes and Envelopes are fast and affordable." > > :) > > De From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 7 17:08:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:08:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, DC wrote: > I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate > box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. If it were complete, then it has its own delivery system From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 17:21:04 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:21:04 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F57ED60.7040609@gmail.com> I was really surprised it wasn't before. Words like "bomb" and "missile" in listings probably ring alarm bells at eBay. You're not even allowed to sell anything to do with firearms. I imagine they have rules about missile parts as well. On 3/7/2012 2:43 PM, Ian King wrote: > I note that this listing has since been removed from eBay. Really, no > kidding. -- Ian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 7 17:29:41 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:29:41 -0000 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was actually of. The original posting suggested a computer, but later postings seem to imply something else. And I don't get the reference to hip waders either, does this have a US-specific meaning perhaps? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 07 March 2012 22:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Put on the hip waders > > On 7 Mar 2012 at 14:10, DC wrote: > > > I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate > > box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. > > Given a 50-ton hydraulic press, you might be able to cram most of it in a > large flat-rate box... > > --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 17:36:28 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:36:28 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I mean, if you got an AS/400 for $0.99, it's kind of > hard to exaggerate unless you said you got it for a penny, > and what difference does that make? :-) I suppose I am thinking "success" on a different way. Sure, anyone that has been hanging around Ebay long enough has managed to get a super deal, like an AS/400 for a buck, but those occurrences are pretty much luck and/or timing. What I am thinking about is winning an Ebay auction - maybe for a buck, maybe for something over market value, it does not matter - and getting something extra from the auction, or really great service. For example, once I won a World War 2 era radar piece for a fair price, and to my surprise, packed along with it was new-in-box ARC-5 receiver (a nice, quite desirable unit from that era). The seller packed it along as a bonus. No funny business, no shipping errors - just a bonus. That is the kind of success that almost ever gets reported, and never gets exaggerated. But, as usual, in our brains the bad things in this world tend to crowd out the good things. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 7 17:38:24 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:38:24 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <20120307223536.8DB31A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <20120307223536.8DB31A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 2012 Mar 7, at 2:35 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate >> box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. > > "With free shipping supplies in eleven different sizes, Flat Rate > options, and no weighing or calculating, Priority Mail Flat Rate > service > is a simpler way to ship. > And with delivery in about 2 days, Priority > Mail Flat Rate Boxes and Envelopes are fast and affordable." I thought delivery - even halfway around the world - was on the order of a half-hour. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 16:39:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:39:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP calculators In-Reply-To: <201203062133.QAA04833@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 6, 12 04:33:05 pm Message-ID: > > >> Does anyone here collect HP calculators? > > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > Oh, my, nostalgia time. An HP machine - a 9820, I think, after Assumnign it was an HP9800 family machine, there are 4 possiblities : HP9810. 3-reigster pstifix machine (not strictly RPN IMHO, in that the 'stack' doesn't operate at all as you'd expect). The display is 3 lines of digits, 7 segment LED. There's a built-in magnetic card reader and an optional internal thermal printer HP9280. This uses an algebraic notation (infix), but is still a programable calculator. The display is 16 character alphanumeric 97*5 LED dot matrix), again the same card reader and printer as the HP9810 (I think the printer awas standard, not an option). HP9821. Essentially an HP9820 with a digital cassette drive rather than a card reader. This is by far the rarest of the family. HP9830. Physically larger. It has no internal printer (but an HP9866A thermal printer is desiged to stack on top of it). There's a built-in digital cassette drive. The display is 32 character alphanumeric, the keyboards is a nromal QWERTY layout, rather htan the numeric keypad and symbols forund on the other machines. It prorgams in BASIC. > wandering around there and one of the places it links to - was one of Othe good sties to look at are http://www.hpmusuem.org http://www.hpmuseum.net (lots of manuals to download in .pdf format). > the first machines I did anything I would (today) call "programming" > on. If I ever find myself with enough money to indulge my nostalgia in > such a way, I will track down one of them. :) Another HP machine, this The price has shot up recently, I suspect yuou're looking at $500 to $1000 for a reasoanble one. It's unlikely to still be working, but they are repairable (most of the logic are common-ish TTL chips. There are custom firmware ROMs, of course (and they are not pin opr fucntion compatible with any normal EPROM), and the RAMs are 1103s which are not easy to find now. > one a rackmount with buttons for doing things like hand-loading > bootstrap code, was another of those early machines. Possibly an HP2100A? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 16:41:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:41:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Mar 6, 12 10:02:03 pm Message-ID: > A small single-board recreation of an Acorn BBC Micro model B. > http://www.sprow.co.uk/bbc/minib.htm Actually, the original Beeb was a single-board computer (apart from the PSU and keyboard which I doubt are on this board either). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:12:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:12:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <8CE2990C-366F-4FDA-82D3-2B7966519DC3@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 6, 12 11:15:29 pm Message-ID: > > Hey Tony, > > >=20 > > VIrtually every open-sourc program (includign all those under the GPL)=20= > > > come with the statement that they are _NOT_ supported. You can't = > expect=20 > > soembody to work for you for nothing. You have the soruce code, fx it=20= > > > yourself!=20 > >=20 > > Good idea. What do you do when you are unable to write or modify a = > program? I then ask others for help/support. I do find it suprising that in an earlie message you claimed that by chargign you could empoly good programemrs and yet none of them could sort out this open-soruce tool (I ahve no idea waht if dows, or what changes you wanted to make, of course). > We deliver something that works, out of the box. It's for the 95% that = ... WHich can't be modified by the user as the soruce code is not avialable. Quite honestly I'd much rather have a product I can support myself than have to rely on others, who now matter how good nad how well-intnetioned may not want to get it to do what I want. Why do you think I have scheamtics and source code for every part of this machine (apart from the hard disk)? Why do I have several thousand service manuals and scheamtics on the shelf? And similarly I might not know what I want until I am part way through the modifications (I'll do soemthing, thus get some infrommation about the device I am workign with (for ecample the function of the control lines, the timing for the data pulses, etc), then make more modifications as a result... > don't know how > to program and the 95% of the 5% left that have no idea about fluxes, = > disk coding or > what pre-compensation means. > > No need to fix it, it's working! Since 2010, and we're constantly adding = > features. > > > > I have been pleasanylu supprised by the support I get from open-source=20= > > > software authors, but I don't exxpect them to do work for me for = > nothing.=20 > > I might e0-mail them a comment and/or a change I've made to do = > something=20 > > I want to do, Or I might ask them 'what is going one here' so that I = > can=20 > > fixx the problem. I always seem to get a helpful reply.=20 > > You would also get a helpful reply from us. We really like to help. We = > have > over 600 users out there. Look how much negative feedback there is on = > the forums. > Forums are usually littered with complaints as people tend to only write = > something when > things are bad. Since by wour own admisison you have kicked people off who have posted adverse comments, I am not sure I can trust this. > > > >=20 > >=20 > >> board. I can't look into the future, but you would still be able = > to=3D20 > >> access the data ingested because the formats are documented. What I = > can=3D20 > >> say is that we don't have plans to let it fade into oblivion, so = > my=3D20 > >=20 > > So say 99% of other ahrdware and softwre mnufacutrers about their=20 > > products. Doesn't mean it doens't happen.=20 > > =85does not mean it has to happen. Of course not. But I know from bitter experience that it often does. Finding a company (or for that matter an open-source author) who will support somethign that's 10 or 20 years old is not easy. And that's why I want oo be able ot support it myself. > > > >=20 > > I disagree. If there is a claer technicla point, as here, I feel a=20 > > developer or a simialr product is perhaps the best to raise it.=20 > >=20 > > So it does not feel strange to you that the only person that ever = > complained about this is he who must not be named? Could it not be that Philip, having built a similar device, has considered the problems and knows the solution? > No, you come to my place and give everyone around the impression that = > the food I serve is bad. > I politely ask you to stop, you refuse, you get thrown out. Days later, = > everyone is still fine, the food > was delicious and everyone enjoyed the evening very much, except for = > your visit. Suppose I go to a restaurant and discover evidence of vermin in the kitchens. Maybe 99% o the people who eat there have no problems, but don't you think I should say something? Or perhaps you fgive me a ride in your car. I am not goign to comment on your choice of make/model, or the colour, or the music you listne to on the radio, or anything like that. But if I notice that a brake light has failed wwhen ou stop to pick me up do you not think I should tell you? As far as I can see that's what Philip was doing. He was raising a legitimate techncial point about your design. And for that he should have got a resaoned answer, not be thrown off the facebook page. To be honest, that, more than anything else, is why I'd consider his deisgn over yours. > So prove me wrong: there are more than 600 units in circulation, some = > are used every day for dozens of disks. > Some have read tenths of thousands of disks. It is working fine. Did you = > ever think about that parts were chosen > for a reason? Why would I change my design because a competitor thinks I = > should? OK, pelase explain to me why toy chose a totem-pole driver to drive the disk drive signals. I can think of 2 good reasons why I wouldn't use them: Possibilty of latch-up in 74HC, etc, parts. They will pull the lines low, thus assertive them, if the power to the deive fails -- e.g. if you turn off the PCB befoee the drive (which may well be separately powered). I had exactly this problem in a classic computer which used a totem-pole driver to drive the control lines of an ST412-interfaced hard disk when I was conencting a separately-powered drive for testibng, ended up wiping part of the boot track :-(). So what are the advantages in using them? [...] > Data can be preserved - that's what the unit was made for. You get the = > STREAM data, that's your disk. > You mess up preservation and the fact how we market our device. These = > are different things. No, you misudnerstood me. You said in an earlier message that by charging for the device you could empoley better programemrs who would use modern techniques, etc. If you shared that knowledge (OK, abd for your bottom line, I agree), then others might be able to further improve on it, thus leading to even better preservation techniques. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:17:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:17:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 6, 12 06:36:15 pm Message-ID: > That's a cute little 6502 SBC, but when I think of a BBC Micro, I > remember coding children's games for it in 1984 with sound and > graphics. Was the Model B something else entirely or is this just a > text-centric subset? You rememebr correctly (or at least you could do ;-)). The original BBC micro came in 2 models, A and B, they were built o nthe smae PCB. The A had quite a few ICs not fited so it only had 16K RAM (as against 32K i nthe model B) amd most of the interfaces were not implemented (in somce cases this meant leaving out a couple of cheap ICs but fitting DIL socketes in their palce so the machien could be upgraded later, I am not sure this was sensible!). All BBC micros had grpahics (rather better on the B model as some modes needed 20K of video RAM which was clearly impossible on a 16K machine) and soucd. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:23:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:23:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Mar 7, 12 01:41:42 am Message-ID: > In my somewhat vague recollection, many people /did/ use the BBC as a > text-centric machine, because in Mode 7, with the Mullard teletext > chip generating the display, you got the most available free memory True. Mode 7 only needed 1K of video RAM. > from its meagre 32KB. Certainly many of the ones I saw in labs at > university had got things like the > > READY > > The oterh explanation is that if all the configuration swithces were open, you got MODE 7 as the pwoer-on defualt. Sicne the DIP swithc (on the keybaord PCB) was not fitted as standard, and few users soldered one in, mackines nearly always powered up in Mode 7. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 17:54:23 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:54:23 -0000 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <65EF3878A372491D9D442B364677E731@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Loewen > Sent: 07 March 2012 22:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard > > > On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap > on board was > > the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: > > > > > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open > -small.jpg > > The central computer (Hughes H5118ME) of the AN/FYQ-93 > air defense > system had a slightly larger backplane, all wire-wrapped. It didn't > generally cause problems, unless someone was fooling around > in the back. > It took us 5 days to track down a connection problem on the backplane > once, eventually doing point-to-point continuity checks. Machine produced wire wrap is extremely reliable. The wire forms a cold weld round the sharp corners of the post. I think the most common problem was a wire being strung too tight and an extra contact being created when a post rubbed through the insulation. Most mainframes of the 60's had large quantities of wire wrap. We had a Honeywell L66 (basically an slightly upragde GE600//6000). It had I guess about 100 12" square boards which were wire wrapped on the back. The back plane these fitted into was also wire wrapped. Some was produced completely automatically on cnc driven machines > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:53:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:53:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Mar 7, 12 08:26:16 pm Message-ID: > If you sign up to volunteer with us, and have the requisite skill set, > etc., etc., you might get to run and maintain the little beggars as well. Thanks, but I volunteered about 15 years ago. There were so many hassles, that I decided my own collectio nwas enough. Anyway, woking on one 9845B is quite sufficient. Any machine with over 1000 ICs in it, where even the PSU contains 17 ICs spread over 5 PCBs arranged as a sort-of 3 dimensional sculpture is not something to take on lightly. -tony (who traced out the schematics of the 9845B and 98780 monitor). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 7 17:31:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:31:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EDN 4th Annual Microprocessor Directory, Nov 1977 In-Reply-To: <4F569802.11054.53B5A0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 6, 12 11:04:34 pm Message-ID: > I recognize almost all of the ones discussed, but there were some > headscratchers. Did Intel ever deliver the 8021? I've never seen an > SBP0400A, either. I am almost sure the 8021 esisted (whether from Intel I can't remember). I seem to rememebr seeing them in keyboards (probably either the Sirius/Victor 9000 keyboards or an early Apple Mac keyboard, but I forget which). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 18:04:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 19:04:15 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57ED60.7040609@gmail.com> References: <4F57ED60.7040609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F57F77F.9010109@neurotica.com> It's quite ridiculous that something like this would get dinged for that reason. It's not like it could actually hurt anyone. Unless of course it was dropped on someone's head. Sooooo sick of the paranoid soccer mom society. -Dave On 03/07/2012 06:21 PM, DC wrote: > I was really surprised it wasn't before. Words like "bomb" and "missile" > in listings probably ring alarm bells at eBay. You're not even allowed > to sell anything to do with firearms. I imagine they have rules about > missile parts as well. > > > On 3/7/2012 2:43 PM, Ian King wrote: >> I note that this listing has since been removed from eBay. Really, no >> kidding. -- Ian > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 18:05:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 19:05:23 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F57F7C3.5090703@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 06:29 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was > actually of. The original posting suggested a computer, but later postings > seem to imply something else. It was the empty carcass of an Autonetics D17B, the guidance computer from a Minuteman missile. > And I don't get the reference to hip waders > either, does this have a US-specific meaning perhaps? "The bullshit is getting so deep in here, you'll need hip waders". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Mar 7 18:11:44 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:11:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1331165504.35726.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Interesting. Guess the complaint(s) worked? I don't quite understand the concern though.. it's just a guidance system right? Honestly woulda been pretty cool long as it wasn't radioactive. --- On Wed, 3/7/12, Ian King wrote: > From: Ian King > On 3/7/12 1:53 PM, "Al Kossow" > > > >This this is clearly a dangerous munition, so I've > reported it to eBay. > I note that this listing has since been removed from > eBay.? Really, no > kidding.? -- Ian From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 18:21:14 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 18:21:14 -0600 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> I may still have my memory card (actually, more like a strip) from high school. We had 4-5 of them, and an Olivetti 602 (?) and at first, the intro to computing course made you write programs for the P101's before they'd let you at the PDP-8/e running TSS/8. I do still have my DECTape for the PDP-8/e. I recall fragments of code for the P101. I used the sequence "A/split up, D/split down..." I think, at one point. It could print, on wide adding machine paper, numbers, a few letters, and some symbols- almost enough to write card games. I don't think we had a symbol we could use for hearts, but diamonds certainly. I found a picture: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/desk_09867.html Ah, memories. At 01:07 AM 3/7/2012, you wrote: >Liam Proven wrote: > > > > The "Program 101": > > >Warning - long rambling response.... > >It was actually called the Programma 101, or "P101" for short. It was a >stored-program desktop programmable calculator. > >Its development began in 1962. It was not introduced to the market in >Europe until 1964, and wasn't available formally in the US market until >the fall of 1965 (though some did make it into the US prior to then via >informal methods). > >There were a number of other electronic calculators had come on the >scene prior to the P101, including one machine that was also a stored >program calculator called the Mathatronics Mathatron. Though the >Mathatron did not have offline storage for its programs, it did use core >memory which was non-volatile, so programs were not lost when the >machine was powered off, while the P101 did lose its memory when turned >off (it used magnetostrictive delay lines), making offline storage of >programs and data more of a requirement. The Mathatron could do >everything that the P101 could with the exception of magnetic card >functionality, and it was introduced in the US almost two years prior to >the P101. Was the Mathatron a personal computer? Not by my definition. > >The claim that the P101 was the first-ever "Personal Computer" is >debatable, though the father of the machine, Pier Girogio Perotto, >insisted that it was the first personal computer until the day he died. >Before he died, I debated this with him via Email (though it was >interesting, as I had to use translators to/from Italian). He was >insistent despite my arguments to the contrary. > >In my opinion, the machine should be classed as one of the earliest >desktop learn-mode programmable calculators (though it wasn't the >first..the Mathatron was), not a personal computer. > >It had a lot of the characteristics of a computer, in that it was >programmable, it had a magnetic card for writing out programs and data, >and reading them back in. >It had a serial printer that could both record output of calculations >and programs, and could also list out programs. It was a numeric-only >printer, with special characters for annotation (math function, memory >register identification). It couldn't print general text. It could add, >subtract, multiply and divide, along with calculating square root and >absolute value as built-in functions. Programs had to be written for >other functions such as logarithms and trig. It wasn't terribly fast, >especially when executing programs, because each program step had to be >"waited for" as it circulated through the delay line, and memory >register access also was serial in nature. It was capable of simple >conditional branching. >It had a number of memory registers (quite limited) that could store >variables and constants. > >The machine was an all transistor design (no ICs), and used a >magnetostrictive delay line for register and program step storage. The >keyboard and printer were heavy mechanical devices more reminiscent of a >mechanical desktop calculator. > >Programs were "learned" into the machine by entering the steps from the >keyboard a step at a time. > >It did not have peripheral interfacing capabilities, so the machine was >what it was with no real means for expansion or additional peripheral >devices. > >Given that it had very limited memory capacity, and variable storage >registers were traded off for program steps, it could only do so much, >though through clever use of the mag cards, programs could be "chained" >and larger capacity for programs and data created. However, it required >manual operation to load/unload cards, and slowed down the process. The >machine was capable of some pretty amazing calculations, including its >use by NASA for calculating antenna aiming information for the US Apollo >spacecraft program. > >Personal computer? There were machines that significantly predated it >that were more capable, and could be considered "personal". The Stanley >Frankel-designed Royal McBee/General Precision LGP-30 (1956) was a true >computer, that could easily be used at a personal level. It was fully >programmable, had peripheral interfacing capabilities, had a versatile >I/O typewriter that could do both text and numbers, and plugged into a >standard electrical outlet. It had much more memory (magnetic >drum-based), and much larger programs could be written, though in order >to do math like could be done simply on the P101, math routines had to >be written, along with I/O routines to accept input and print output. > > Monroe, in the early to mid-1950's had "desk-sized" (not desktop) >machines called the Monrobot series that could do more than the P101 and >were more computer-like in their later models. Clary also built the >DE-60, another desk-sized programmable calculator that was >computer-like. IBM's 610 "Auto-Point" calculator was a very capable >stored program calculator/computer that could out-perform the P101, but >it was quite large and expensive. All of these machines came about in >the 1950's, quite a long time before the Programma 101 came out. These >machines could potentially be considered "Personal Computers" before the >P101 was even a concept. The Programma 101 was pretty simple to >program, probably less complicated than these earlier machines, but that >also limited it capabilities. > >The key things that the P101 had going for it was that it was a desktop >machine (though rather large and heavy - 80 pounds), and it was >comparatively inexpensive, selling for around $3900. These predecessors >didn't fit on a desk (though the Mathatron was a desktop machine, though >it took up quite a bit of square footage on an average desk), and were >significantly more expensive. > >Was the P101 the first personal computer? My opinion is that it isn't, >but then some might argue. Some consider the Berkeley SIMON computer, >developed in the late 1940s, with articles on how to build the >relay-based machine published in Radio Electronics in the early 1950's, >to be the first personal computer. > >Some also consider HP's 9100A calculator (1968) the first personal >computer. This calculator made everything developed prior to it look >like a toy. It had much larger memory capacity, had logs and trig >built-in, was an all-transistor microcoded design, and could interface >to a significant number of peripherals including plotters, printers, >extended memory, and even custom interfaces made for instrumentation >control systems. But in my mind, it was still a calculator, though an >extremely powerful one. > >My personal definition of the first real desktop personal computer would >be the HP 9830. It had a full alphanumeric keyboard and display, was >programmed in BASIC, had large memory capacity, could interface to a >wide range of peripherals (plotters, printers, storage, instrumentation >interfaces, telecommunications). It could be used as a calculator by >simply typing in math expressions and pressing a key, and the answer >would be displayed. It was introduced in 1972. It sat on a desk, and >was easily usable in a productive fashion by anyone after spending a >little time reading through the well-written manual. > >All that said, the P101 was an amazing machine for its time. It was >immensely popular, and spawned some follow-on machines from Olivetti >that improved on its capabilities. However, HP's domination of the >high-end programmable calculator market beginning with the 9100A >eventually knocked Olivetti out of that line of business, though >Olivetti did stick with producing office calculators for some time. > >Rick Bensene >The Old Calculator Museum >http://oldcalculatormuseum.com 462 . [Oops] "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 7 18:24:57 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:24:57 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 7, at 2:51 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap on >> board was >> the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: >> >> http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open- >> small.jpg > > The central computer (Hughes H5118ME) of the AN/FYQ-93 air > defense system had a slightly larger backplane, all wire-wrapped. > It didn't generally cause problems, unless someone was fooling > around in the back. It took us 5 days to track down a connection > problem on the backplane once, eventually doing point-to-point > continuity checks. There was another backplane wiring technique in the mid-60s using crimps. Could be mistaken for wire-wrap from a distance, but the wire is crimped to the pin with a folded metal crimp, not wrapped. The early HP 21xx machines used it, some photos of a 2116C backplane: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/2116Cbp/crimps.jpg http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/2116Cbp/backplane.jpg I've never heard a distinct name for it. What's the earliest instance of wire-wrap anyone knows of? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 7 18:36:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:36:34 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F57FF12.7090603@bitsavers.org> On 3/7/12 3:29 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was > actually of. It was a relisting of the $100,000 Autonetics D17B computer frame. I suspect the REAL reason they pulled it was because he had his phone number in the listing. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 7 18:43:05 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:43:05 -0700 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > I suppose I am thinking "success" on a different way. Sure, anyone > that has been hanging around Ebay long enough has managed to get a > super deal, like an AS/400 for a buck, but those occurrences are > pretty much luck and/or timing. What I am thinking about is winning an > Ebay auction - maybe for a buck, maybe for something over market > value, it does not matter - and getting something extra from the > auction, or really great service. [...] When I bought the Aesthedes, the seller was not an ebay regular and was very helpful in working out the shipping arrangements with me. (My largest shipment yet, several very large freight pallets.) Additionally, there are certain ebay sellers I've worked with repeatedly over the years and I'm always happy to do business with them again because the service is great. They always pack things properly in a NEW box and nothing ever gets damaged. (i.e. SGI Indigo^2s which are pretyt heavy yet come in a delicate plastic skin) Unfortunately one of the regular sellers I dealt with in this category retired from the surplus business. This was after I spotted a bulk lot listing of his on ebay where it mentioned "CDC console, CDC terminals" and I negotiated with him to buy those separately from the lot. It was the CDC CC425 console (big square tube, not the dual round tube) and several CDC Viking PLATO terminals with PLATO keyboards and the touch screen. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rogpugh at mac.com Wed Mar 7 18:54:28 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 00:54:28 +0000 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F580344.4050908@mac.com> On 07/03/2012 23:29, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was > actually of. It pertained to be the guidance computer (or at least the circular bus board and rack) of a minuiteman ICBM. One careful owner, never used in anger, blah, blah... impress the girls, never loose an argument ever again sort of thing Buy it now only 100,000 Dollars. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 7 19:09:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:09:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57F77F.9010109@neurotica.com> References: <4F57ED60.7040609@gmail.com> <4F57F77F.9010109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120307170826.I45724@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's quite ridiculous that something like this would get dinged for > that reason. It's not like it could actually hurt anyone. Unless of > course it was dropped on someone's head. > Sooooo sick of the paranoid soccer mom society. Because the auction listing called it a missile, and never explicitly stated that it no longer had a warhead! In fact, reading it, it looked like they were trying to imply that it was the whole thing! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 7 19:13:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:13:04 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F5807A0.5060307@neurotica.com> On 03/07/2012 06:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I suppose I am thinking "success" on a different way. Sure, anyone > that has been hanging around Ebay long enough has managed to get a > super deal, like an AS/400 for a buck, but those occurrences are > pretty much luck and/or timing. What I am thinking about is winning an > Ebay auction - maybe for a buck, maybe for something over market > value, it does not matter - and getting something extra from the > auction, or really great service. For example, once I won a World War > 2 era radar piece for a fair price, and to my surprise, packed along > with it was new-in-box ARC-5 receiver (a nice, quite desirable unit > from that era). The seller packed it along as a bonus. No funny > business, no shipping errors - just a bonus. > > That is the kind of success that almost ever gets reported, and never > gets exaggerated. > > But, as usual, in our brains the bad things in this world tend to > crowd out the good things. "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones." - Mark Antony -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 7 19:24:37 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:24:37 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <1331165504.35726.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1331165504.35726.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F580A55.7060205@jwsss.com> I had some discussions with the fellow yesterday, Douglas. I think he updated the auction based on that. It is clear he is trying to reach out and push the buttons of someone who sees a unique conversation piece, and not a computer artifact. My biggest complaint about his listing was pointed out by Allison, and that was that it looked like it was drug out of a ditch. He has a lot of skin in the game, and if he wants to sell something like this should make a much better presentation than the ebay photos. As one says, the web / internet is forever, so anyone who grabbed these photos and stored them has a pretty unflattering snapshot of the state of this thing. He deals with antique furniture and other things that sell when they look good, and as much as he has into this, should treat the presentation of both the facts, and the image in a high quality fashion. Obviously the update to the auction was silly, and full of errors, not a good update. I'd like to wish him success but I don't know how to help him if he won't listen. Clearly noone here would want it for anything like the value he places on it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. If he finds it, it potentially raises the value of all older computers if it is done right. If it is done like PT Barnum doing it, it probably won't help much. Again I'm coming from the angle of hoping that the value of our collections could be recognized and placed at a level above E-waste and metal scrap. On 3/7/2012 4:11 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > Interesting. Guess the complaint(s) worked? I don't quite understand the concern though.. it's just a guidance system right? Honestly woulda been pretty cool long as it wasn't radioactive. > > --- On Wed, 3/7/12, Ian King wrote: > >> From: Ian King >> On 3/7/12 1:53 PM, "Al Kossow" >>> This this is clearly a dangerous munition, so I've >> reported it to eBay. >> I note that this listing has since been removed from >> eBay. Really, no >> kidding. -- Ian > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 19:31:55 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:31:55 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com> <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > What's the earliest instance of wire-wrap anyone knows of? Chuck mentioned WECo. Certainly it was in common use in the mid-1950s in COs. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 19:37:30 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:37:30 -0500 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> References: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> > I found a picture: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/desk_09867.html Can someone translate the advertisement: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/adv_18199.html From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 7 19:58:41 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:58:41 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F57F77F.9010109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5932b74503533f02312691ea2577270c@bellsouth.net> > It's quite ridiculous that something like this would get dinged for > that reason. It's not like it could actually hurt anyone. Unless of > course it was dropped on someone's head. Reminds me of a story I once heard about Ken Thompson. He was once transporting Belle (the chess computer he developed) out of the contry. Because of the belief at the time that shipping anything with a greater computational power than a slide rule would end western civilization as we know it, they asked him if it could be used as a weapon. He responded, "only if you drop it out of the plane on someone." Disclaimer: I don't have any first-hand knowledge of whether story is true, or if it is, whether it's related to the reported time the State Department confiscated the machine. BLS From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 20:05:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:05:07 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2012, at 7:43 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > William Donzelli writes: > >> I suppose I am thinking "success" on a different way. Sure, anyone >> that has been hanging around Ebay long enough has managed to get a >> super deal, like an AS/400 for a buck, but those occurrences are >> pretty much luck and/or timing. What I am thinking about is winning an >> Ebay auction - maybe for a buck, maybe for something over market >> value, it does not matter - and getting something extra from the >> auction, or really great service. [...] > > When I bought the Aesthedes, the seller was not an ebay regular and > was very helpful in working out the shipping arrangements with me. > (My largest shipment yet, several very large freight pallets.) > > Additionally, there are certain ebay sellers I've worked with > repeatedly over the years and I'm always happy to do business with > them again because the service is great. They always pack things > properly in a NEW box and nothing ever gets damaged. (i.e. SGI > Indigo^2s which are pretyt heavy yet come in a delicate plastic skin) Likewise, I've actually had pretty good dealings with a lot of the resellers on eBay (I guess I'm mostly thinking of EMI). They ship a lot of stuff to people who generally want it working, so they pack it well enough. The prices aren't generally above what I'm willing to pay, either (they are, of course, almost universally Buy It Now, so there's no risk of someone feeling like they got a raw deal). I guess it's just hard to exaggerate real success stories on eBay without sounding absurd ("I bought a VAX-11/780 new in box for five bucks, and they brought it over themselves on an ELEPHANT"). The most I can do without feeling uncomfortable is gloss over some of the imperfections (yeah, the guy who sold me the Wurlitzer was pretty sketchy and he only wanted cash, but hey). Griping about what went wrong, though (maybe with a bit of embellishment, which is a stackable attribute) is a human trait everyone excels at. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 7 20:19:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 18:19:04 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: , <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2012 at 20:31, William Donzelli wrote: > > What's the earliest instance of wire-wrap anyone knows of? > > Chuck mentioned WECo. Certainly it was in common use in the mid-1950s > in COs. Yup, you'll see crossbar switches full of it. Of course, not using 30AWG Kynar-insulated wire, more like 26AWG. It may still be used; I'm not up to date on the latest switching gear. Generally speaking, if Ma Bell adopted a technology, it was probably pretty durable. Modular plugs excepted. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 7 20:29:43 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:29:43 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hip Waders basically equal Wellies, except they tend to go up further. Zane At 11:29 PM +0000 3/7/12, Rob Jarratt wrote: >Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was >actually of. The original posting suggested a computer, but later postings >seem to imply something else. And I don't get the reference to hip waders >either, does this have a US-specific meaning perhaps? > >Regards > >Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis >> Sent: 07 March 2012 22:49 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Put on the hip waders >> >> On 7 Mar 2012 at 14:10, DC wrote: >> >> > I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate >> > box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. >> >> Given a 50-ton hydraulic press, you might be able to cram most of it in a >> large flat-rate box... >> >> --Chuck -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 20:31:51 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:31:51 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca> <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Generally speaking, if Ma Bell adopted a technology, it was probably > pretty durable. ?Modular plugs excepted. Real Western Electric modular plugs are actually very good and can withstand a zillion insert cycles. But there hasn't been a real WE modular plug made in a very long time... -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 20:34:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:34:37 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, DC wrote: >> I still want to know how he is fitting that in a USPS large flat rate >> box. Those missles must be much smaller than I though. > > If it were complete, then it has its own delivery system Which is, in fact, what worried me when Al started talking about the "Minuteman User Group". - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 20:42:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:42:33 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F57E227.3000100@neurotica.com> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F57E227.3000100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <335C5B04-65CD-4440-8D95-7789F14C809A@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/07/2012 05:16 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> > The Nuclear Data ND812 CPU is all wire-wrapped SSI/MSI 7400 series logic. >> >> Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap on board was >> the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: >> >> http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open-small.jpg > > Many (most?) DEC backplanes, like the PDP-11/70: > > http://www.neurotica.com/albums/pdp1170/DSCN1161.JPG Also all of the PDP-10 backplanes, unless I heard wrong. My '11 backplane (whose number I keep forgetting) is a PCB, but they kindly left wire wrap stakes on the back so I could convert it to 22-bit. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 20:47:02 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:47:02 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca>, <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6A239CFA-CCC8-4468-AFE6-1153A2B67BDB@gmail.com> On Mar 7, 2012, at 9:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Mar 2012 at 20:31, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> What's the earliest instance of wire-wrap anyone knows of? >> >> Chuck mentioned WECo. Certainly it was in common use in the mid-1950s >> in COs. > > Yup, you'll see crossbar switches full of it. Of course, not using > 30AWG Kynar-insulated wire, more like 26AWG. It may still be used; > I'm not up to date on the latest switching gear. I certainly see it on a T1/E1 plugboard at Hughes Network Systems when I'm there (large-gauge wire, probably 26AWG, and bigger posts than what I'm used to). It's probably used when a punchdown cross-connect is undesirable, since those usually aren't good for much more than 1 shot. > Generally speaking, if Ma Bell adopted a technology, it was probably > pretty durable. Modular plugs excepted. Modular plugs are plenty durable. It's the retention clips that break off if you look at them wrong. - Dave From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 12:57:05 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:57:05 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? Message-ID: <4F57AF81.6090207@gmail.com> Christian Bartsch | Kryoflux LTD. (cb at kryoflux.com) wrote on Tue Mar 6 02:30:32 CST 2012: Hi Tony, ... >/ 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of interests' if />/ somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the Diskferret? / Suggestions like that (the original statement, not your question here) would you get thrown out of my house for sure. Why would any large, big, mighty institution be hindered by us to look at a competitive product? Why would they let us hinder them? If they could get something better that would be completely free, why would they want to take the solution that needs to be paid for? How could I stop them from using publically available sources? Christian, if there's no anti-compete clause in the license, then please explain what exactly clauses 3.a.v and particularly 3.a.vi do. Also, for third party/open-source IPF stuff (other than the potential for GPL software to be used commercially, already expressly forbidden by 3.a.v), clauses 3.d.i and 3.d.ii would also seem to expressly forbid it? 3.d.ii seems to imply that it violates the license to even convert an IPF to other formats, which makes IPF images entirely useless as a general preservation format because of the legal minefield they're stuck in. This is one of the most deceptive licenses I've ever read; the top preamble implies it gives the user great freedom but instead it almost totally locks everything they've done and can do down to "a SPS product defined by SPS". I'm going to stay far, far away from any products Kryoflux LTD./SPS puts out unless you seriously rethink your licensing, since by contributing to the Discferret project I'm apparently already in violation of it. No wonder none of the organizations you sold your CTA analyzer to want anything to do with Phil's product, the license expressly forbids them from even considering it. For reference: 2. LICENCE. I. LICENCE for IPF SUPPORT LIBRARY SPS hereby grants you (each licensee is addressed as "you") a non-exclusive, non-transferable licence to use the Technology, on the following terms and only for private, non-profit purposes (see Section 3 below). You may: ... c. inspect ("understand") the source code (if provided); and ... 3.LIMITATIONS ON LICENCE.The licence grantedin Section 2 is subject to the followingrestrictions: a.The Technology is to be used onlyfor non-profit purposesunless you obtain prior written consent fromSPS.Prohibited for-profit and commercial purposesinclude, but arenot limitedto: ... (v) Using the Technology to develop a similar application on any platform for commercial distribution, except to the extent this restriction is prohibited by applicable law; or (vi) Using the Technology in any manner that is generally competitive with a SPS product as defined by SPS, except to the extent this restriction is prohibited by applicable law. ... d. You may not modify, combine commercial applications with the Technology. You may not prepare derivative works of the Technology, except to the extent this restriction is prohibited by applicable law. Derivative works are defined as but not limited to: (i) Alternative support libraries. We are open to porting to other platforms, and so third parties doing such is unnecessary and violates the terms of this licence. If you want to port the library, please contact us. We will host it on our site and ensure that only the latest version is being distributed. (ii) Alternative tools that operate on files of the format as defined by the Technology. This includes but is not limited to: mastering tools(tools that enable Content to be written back to physical media like a floppy disk). Reproducing Content provided through or by the Technology to any other kind of media, such as alternative content provider technology(this also covers any kind of converter with the intention of extracting the Content to held by any other alternate media format that represents the same independently working Content). Additions, removals or other modification of data contained by the images. ... To anyone who wants to read further, the license text can be seen in full as "LICENCE.txt" in the "Download the latest software" archives at http://www.kryoflux.com/ -- Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 13:23:12 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:23:12 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? Message-ID: <4F57B5A0.2060404@gmail.com> Christian Bartsch | Kryoflux LTD. (cb at kryoflux.com) wrote on Tue Mar 6 02:30:32 CST 2012: Hi Tony, ... >/ 2) Is there any truth to the comments about a 'conflict of interests' if />/ somebody wants to devleop both for your device and the Diskferret? / Suggestions like that (the original statement, not your question here) would you get thrown out of my house for sure. Why would any large, big, mighty institution be hindered by us to look at a competitive product? Why would they let us hinder them? If they could get something better that would be completely free, why would they want to take the solution that needs to be paid for? How could I stop them from using publically available sources? Christian, if there's no anti-compete clause in the license, then please explain what exactly clauses 3.a.v and particularly 3.a.vi do. Also, for third party/open-source IPF stuff (other than the potential for GPL software to be used commercially, already expressly forbidden by 3.a.v), clauses 3.d.i and 3.d.ii would also seem to expressly forbid it? 3.d.ii seems to imply that it violates the license to even convert an IPF to other formats, which makes IPF images entirely useless as a general preservation format because of the legal minefield they're stuck in. This is one of the most deceptive licenses I've ever read; the top preamble implies it gives the user great freedom but instead it almost totally locks everything they've done and can do down to "a SPS product defined by SPS". I'm going to stay far, far away from any products Kryoflux LTD./SPS puts out unless you seriously rethink your licensing, since by contributing to the Discferret project I'm apparently already in violation of it. No wonder none of the organizations you sold your CTA analyzer to want anything to do with Phil's product, the license expressly forbids them from even considering it. For reference: 2. LICENCE. I. LICENCE for IPF SUPPORT LIBRARY SPS hereby grants you (each licensee is addressed as "you") a non-exclusive, non-transferable licence to use the Technology, on the following terms and only for private, non-profit purposes (see Section 3 below). You may: ... c. inspect ("understand") the source code (if provided); and ... 3.LIMITATIONS ON LICENCE.The licence grantedin Section 2 is subject to the followingrestrictions: a.The Technology is to be used onlyfor non-profit purposesunless you obtain prior written consent fromSPS.Prohibited for-profit and commercial purposesinclude, but arenot limitedto: ... (v) Using the Technology to develop a similar application on any platform for commercial distribution, except to the extent this restriction is prohibited by applicable law; or (vi) Using the Technology in any manner that is generally competitive with a SPS product as defined by SPS, except to the extent this restriction is prohibited by applicable law. ... d. You may not modify, combine commercial applications with the Technology. You may not prepare derivative works of the Technology, except to the extent this restriction is prohibited by applicable law. Derivative works are defined as but not limited to: (i) Alternative support libraries. We are open to porting to other platforms, and so third parties doing such is unnecessary and violates the terms of this licence. If you want to port the library, please contact us. We will host it on our site and ensure that only the latest version is being distributed. (ii) Alternative tools that operate on files of the format as defined by the Technology. This includes but is not limited to: mastering tools(tools that enable Content to be written back to physical media like a floppy disk). Reproducing Content provided through or by the Technology to any other kind of media, such as alternative content provider technology(this also covers any kind of converter with the intention of extracting the Content to held by any other alternate media format that represents the same independently working Content). Additions, removals or other modification of data contained by the images. ... To anyone who wants to read further, the license text can be seen in full as "LICENCE.txt" in the "Download the latest software" archives at http://www.kryoflux.com/ -- Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 7 21:14:45 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:14:45 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> References: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> Message-ID: <729855BD-AF1C-42C0-9C58-03C01B6BB216@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 7, at 5:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I found a picture: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/desk_09867.html > > Can someone translate the advertisement: > http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/adv_18199.html Google translation: With its small size and bedienngseenvoud of an office machine, Olivetti, the 101 Program all critical benefits of electronic charge, which until now were needed for larger devices. Namely: fast hero, Logicam, programming capabilities and afleesvoorzieningen. It is, moreover, the first computer that a table program can register on magnetic cards. Where the ordinary calculator inadequate and the big machine is less desirable, find the program 101 Olivetti precise destination. For scientific research and technical calculations. For administrative and statistical purposes. I'd suggest Rick's website for more info, which also appears to be where the be-calc photos came from. http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/c-programma101.html From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 21:31:11 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 22:31:11 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <5932b74503533f02312691ea2577270c@bellsouth.net> References: <5932b74503533f02312691ea2577270c@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4F5827FF.7090005@snarc.net> > Reminds me of a story I once heard about Ken Thompson. He was once transporting Belle (the chess computer he developed) > out of the contry. Because of the belief at the time that shipping anything with a greater computational power than a slide rule > would end western civilization as we know it, they asked him if it could be used as a weapon. He responded, "only if you drop it > out of the plane on someone." Konrad Zuse did the opposite: he allowed the German military to believe his Z4 relay computer was actually part of a missile system, in order to obtain transportation out of Berlin. See pages 91-92 of his autobiography at http://bit.ly/zFLLF8 and his son's version of the story at http://bit.ly/xrcdKq. From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 7 21:32:40 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 22:32:40 -0500 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <729855BD-AF1C-42C0-9C58-03C01B6BB216@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> <729855BD-AF1C-42C0-9C58-03C01B6BB216@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F582858.4070404@snarc.net> >> >>> I found a picture: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/desk_09867.html >> >> Can someone translate the advertisement: >> http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/adv_18199.html > > Google translation: > > With its small size and > bedienngseenvoud of an office machine, > Olivetti, the 101 Program all critical benefits > of electronic charge, which until now were needed for larger devices. > > Namely: fast hero, Logicam, programming capabilities and > afleesvoorzieningen. > It is, moreover, the first computer that a table > program can register on magnetic cards. Where the ordinary > calculator inadequate and the big machine is less desirable, > find the program 101 Olivetti precise destination. For scientific > research and technical calculations. For administrative and > statistical purposes. Ummm .... can someone who * actually speaks the language * translate it please .... From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 21:47:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:47:33 -0500 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <4F582858.4070404@snarc.net> References: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> <729855BD-AF1C-42C0-9C58-03C01B6BB216@cs.ubc.ca> <4F582858.4070404@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2012, at 10:32 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Namely: fast hero, Logicam, programming capabilities and afleesvoorzieningen. > > Ummm .... can someone who * actually speaks the language * translate it please .... I dunno, that "fast hero" feature is pretty compelling. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 7 21:57:23 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:57:23 -0700 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <1331165504.35726.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1331165504.35726.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F582E23.7040905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/7/2012 5:11 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > Interesting. Guess the complaint(s) worked? I don't quite understand > the concern though.. it's just a guidance system right? Honestly > woulda been pretty cool long as it wasn't radioactive. > You want radioactive to keep the coffee warm, right. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 7 21:58:16 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:58:16 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <4F57E2C7.2090206@snarc.net> References: <4F57E2C7.2090206@snarc.net> Message-ID: Evan wrote: > To be clear: do you not consider the P101 a "computer" at all? If so, then > what's your distinction between "calculator" and "computer" when the 101 > has conditional branching? I guess I didn't really explain my thoughts about the differences in my diatribe. I am referencing "programmable calculators", not calculators in general. A plain old calculator is not a computer in any way, as it has no way to program it or store a program. I limit the scope of my definition during the timeframe from 1963 (when the Mathatron was introduced) through around 1972, when the HP 9830 came about. That machine really blurred the line between programmable calculator and computer. Even though the machine was (in my opinion) a computer, it was conceived by HP's calculator division, and was marketed as an advanced programmable calculator. An interesting factor that calculator companies took into account when classifying their machines as "programmable calculators" versus "computers" is that from a marketing standpoint in the early 1970's, computers were intimidating to people, while calculators were much more familiar to people in business and government. Thus, even more advanced machines made after this timeframe, such as HP's 9825, were marketed as programmable calculators rather than computers, though the machine was definitely more of a computer than a programmable calculator. The term programmable calculator allowed these machines to sneak through the bean counters who generally went into panic when they saw the term "computer" on a purchase requisition. I am also considering just the base device itself, without add on peripherals in cases where such were available. * Primarily has input, and is operated through, a keyboard that has a numeric keypad (0-9), and discrete function keys for mathematical & programming operations. Lacks an alphanumeric keyboard. * Operates primarily as a decimal math machine, meaning its registers store numbers in BCD (Binary-Coded Decimal), Excess-3, or other 4-bit representations of decimal digits, and the ALU is generally not a pure binary device (most ALUs were 4-bit parallel BCD adders, or bit-serial adders that had correction circuitry to handle inter-bit and inter-digit carry). * Don't have the ability to perform Boolean logic operations (bitwise AND, OR, NOT and derivatives) as built-in functions. * Typically do not have the ability to manipulate text. * Typically does not have much in the way of main storage. In terms of K-bytes of memory, most programmable calculators from this period max out at around 2K. Many machines had much less than this. * Output is in the form of numeric display (CRT, numeric indicator tubes(Nixie, Panaplex, VF, LED); limited function output printer (numeric and function annotation); or both. * Programs were initially entered via learn-mode, where the operations provided for by the machine's keyboard were stored into program memory as "steps". No "language" per-se, just keyboard operations. * In most cases, programmable calculators can't do self-modifying code (though there are a few exceptions where program step and register memory are overlapped) * Could not support any high level language...all programming operations were machine-level built-in functions. No language compilers or interpreters were possible. * Limited instruction sets, mostly confined to the basic keyboard functionality of the machine. Conditionals based on simple conditions (X=Y, X=0, X<>0, X<0, error condition exits, sense switch set/not set). * Limited subroutine capabilities (nesting depth, mainly) * Lack of any kind of stack architecture (for programming, not register architecture). Recursion is difficult if not impossible due to lack of ability to stack working registers. On some machines a stack architecture could be programmed, but I'm speaking more about a built-in type of functionality. * No interrupt handling architecture. I/O is typically polled or handled by pausing execution until an I/O is completed. Obviously, there are exceptions to everything...some machines stretch these rules a bit, but overall, most machines that have these characteristics would be classified by me as a programmable calculator rather than a computer. Here are some examples of these criteria applied to a good selection of machines -- * The Olivetti Programma 101 matches all of these criteria as being a programmable calculator rather than a computer. * The HP 9100A/B and 9810/9820/9821 match most of these, though self-modifying code was possible on the 9100's, although rather tedious to do. These machines could be significantly increased in capabilities with add-ons, but again, I'm only considering the base unit and not add-ons. * The HP 9830 isn't a programmable calculator by these criteria, though bitwise Boolean has to be "programmed" rather than being built-in functions. I consider this machine to be a computer. * The Wang 700/500/600-series calculators match these criteria, and are thus programmable calculators and not computers. They had some amazing computer-like capabilities when paired with peripheral add-ons, but as standalone machines, definitely were high-end programmable calculators. * Wang's 2200-series machines were definitely computers by these criteria. * The Computer Design Corp. (Compucorp, also sold under Monroe and Sumlock brands) programmable calculators stretch some of these criteria, but only when used with external devices. Additional programming capabilities/instructions were accessible through punched-card programming, which required an external punched card reader. These machines did have some really amazing programming capabilities that blurred the line between programmable calculator and computer, but only when used with external add-ons. * The Tektronix Model 31 stretches some of these (can print text, but can't really input or process it, and does have interrupt and DMA capabilities), but I still consider it a programmable calculator rather than a computer. * Programmable machines by Sharp and Casio certainly match these criteria. * Monroe EPIC 2000/3000 programmable calculators match all of these criteria. * Friden programmable calculators match all of the criteria, though the early machines (1151, 1152, 1154) had a really weird ALU and numeric representation that wasn't BCD or other four-bit decimal representation. * Mathatronics' machines match all of these criteria...at least running standalone. With add-on devices, the capabilities could be dramatically expanded, but I'd still consider these programmable calculators rather than computers even when maxed out with add-ons. I hope that this serves to clarify my statement as to why I consider the Olivetti Programma 101 a programmable calculator rather than a "personal computer". Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 7 22:13:52 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1331180032.9075.YahooMailClassic@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 3/7/12, Evan Koblentz wrote: > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: Re: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 5:37 PM > > > I found a picture: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/desk_09867.html > > Can someone translate the advertisement: > http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/adv_18199.html > I have an ad from 1965 on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/ads/olivetti_sa_11_65.pdf They call it a desktop computer. Bob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 7 22:17:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:17:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: <4F57E2C7.2090206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201203080417.XAA27876@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [a "calculator"] > * Primarily has input, and is operated through, a keyboard that > has a numeric keypad (0-9), and discrete function keys for > mathematical & programming operations. Lacks an alphanumeric > keyboard. > * The HP 9100A/B and 9810/9820/9821 match most of these, though > self-modifying code was possible on the 9100's, although rather > tedious to do. The 9820 had an alpha keyboard, though not a typewriter-layout alpha keyboard. The keys to the left, which are usually per-addon functions like trig, can be used to enter alpha text. (Its ability to actually work with text was pretty minimal as far as I can recall; as far as my (now ~35 year old) memory goes I used it for little but prettying up printed output with descriptive text.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 7 22:51:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:51:04 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <335C5B04-65CD-4440-8D95-7789F14C809A@gmail.com> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F57E227.3000100@neurotica.com> <335C5B04-65CD-4440-8D95-7789F14C809A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F583AB8.7020904@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > Also all of the PDP-10 backplanes, unless I heard wrong. My '11 > backplane (whose number I keep forgetting) is a PCB, but they kindly > left wire wrap stakes on the back so I could convert it to 22-bit. The KL10 CPU backplane is a PCB, with some of the wiring etched, and some wire-wrapped. Since it's ECL, some of the wire-wrapped signals are differential pairs, using twisted pair. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Mar 7 23:02:10 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:02:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <6A239CFA-CCC8-4468-AFE6-1153A2B67BDB@gmail.com> References: , <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca>, <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> <6A239CFA-CCC8-4468-AFE6-1153A2B67BDB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, David Riley wrote: > It's probably used when a punchdown cross-connect is > undesirable, since those usually aren't good for much more than 1 shot. [citation needed] I used to work for a small telco equipment manufacturer, and both we and our customers (including national telcos in smaller countries) re-wired 66 and 110 blocks constantly. Alexey From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 23:18:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 00:18:06 -0500 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: , <346251A6-2FB8-4153-A41A-1B659CE3B438@cs.ubc.ca>, <4F57A698.15117.1F33A7D@cclist.sydex.com> <6A239CFA-CCC8-4468-AFE6-1153A2B67BDB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AB272EF-E54D-48B8-AFB4-4A8ECC7B6198@gmail.com> On Mar 8, 2012, at 12:02 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, David Riley wrote: > >> It's probably used when a punchdown cross-connect is >> undesirable, since those usually aren't good for much more than 1 shot. > > [citation needed] > > I used to work for a small telco equipment manufacturer, and both we and our customers (including national telcos in smaller countries) re-wired 66 and 110 blocks constantly. Well, I don't use them often. It's what I heard from a local wiring tech; perhaps he was used to cheaper stuff? - Dave From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Mar 7 23:58:01 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 06:58:01 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F57B48D.1090902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F584A69.2010308@update.uu.se> On 03/07/2012 08:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've moved hundreds of H960's and learned a lot of tricks- mostly > good. I could 2 on the floor of my van and a 3ed on top. > > Anybody else on here ever move an 11/70 in a corporate cab down > several flights of stairs in a commercial building? Remember, they > don't come apart- CPU, memory, expansion all in one. > > Paul holy... I've moved one.. but never down a flight of stairs, where there casualties? Although, we are all amateurs compared to the fellas with CNC machinery in their garage. Admittedly no-one probably ever moved a CNC mill up a flight of residential stairs... /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 00:06:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 01:06:35 -0500 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <4F584A69.2010308@update.uu.se> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F57B48D.1090902@neurotica.com> <4F584A69.2010308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4F584C6B.90804@neurotica.com> On 03/08/2012 12:58 AM, Pontus wrote: >> I've moved hundreds of H960's and learned a lot of tricks- mostly >> good. I could 2 on the floor of my van and a 3ed on top. >> >> Anybody else on here ever move an 11/70 in a corporate cab down >> several flights of stairs in a commercial building? Remember, they >> don't come apart- CPU, memory, expansion all in one. > > holy... I've moved one.. but never down a flight of stairs, where there > casualties? > > Although, we are all amateurs compared to the fellas with CNC machinery > in their garage. Admittedly no-one probably ever moved a CNC mill up a > flight of residential stairs... That sort of stuff is movable. One trick a machinist friend of mine did to move a big Bridgeport mill is to get it up onto a few small pieces of thin steel rod, like 1/4" or less. By what mechanism he got it up onto them I don't know. But then he'd just roll the monstrosity across the floor, moving one around to the front when it popped out the back. A common implement in those circles is called, I believe, a "Johnson bar" which is sorta like a handtruck but with FAR greater leverage and small steel wheels with an immense weight rating. Those guys know the tools of their craft every bit as well as we know ours. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 8 00:40:13 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:40:13 -0800 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: <4F584C6B.90804@neurotica.com> References: <20120306072523.GA19534@Update.UU.SE> <20120306225104.8a95b0ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F57B48D.1090902@neurotica.com> <4F584A69.2010308@update.uu.se> <4F584C6B.90804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2012, at 10:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/08/2012 12:58 AM, Pontus wrote: >>> I've moved hundreds of H960's and learned a lot of tricks- mostly >>> good. I could 2 on the floor of my van and a 3ed on top. >>> >>> Anybody else on here ever move an 11/70 in a corporate cab down >>> several flights of stairs in a commercial building? Remember, they >>> don't come apart- CPU, memory, expansion all in one. >> >> holy... I've moved one.. but never down a flight of stairs, where there >> casualties? >> >> Although, we are all amateurs compared to the fellas with CNC machinery >> in their garage. Admittedly no-one probably ever moved a CNC mill up a >> flight of residential stairs... > > That sort of stuff is movable. One trick a machinist friend of mine did to move a big Bridgeport mill is to get it up onto a few small pieces of thin steel rod, like 1/4" or less. By what mechanism he got it up onto them I don't know. But then he'd just roll the monstrosity across the floor, moving one around to the front when it popped out the back. A common implement in those circles is called, I believe, a "Johnson bar" which is sorta like a handtruck but with FAR greater leverage and small steel wheels with an immense weight rating. Ah, yes! It's also known as a J-Bar (I guess because it looks like a capitol J). I have one. It's amazingly useful in moving loaded racks when you have a *small* ledge or gap to get over. Mine is more like a 6' pry bar with wheels at the leverage point. The "blade" is ~6" wide and 4" deep (just right to get under racks and such). It has a 6' wooden handle (again about 6" wide at the bottom and tapers to ~4" and is 2" thick). The "wheels" are 6" heavy duty solid wheels. I think I paid ~$100 for it new. It's seen a lot of use! Worth every $0.01 I paid. Friends who've helped me move equipment (mine and theirs) love it too (it's probably my most borrowed tool). Basically you put the blade under what you're trying to move and "lever" it up so that some of the weight is on the wheels of the J-Bar. Because the J-Bar's wheels are much larger (and probably in much better shape than some of the casters on the racks) it makes rolling the rack over "rough" terrain much easier. Usually I use it when I'm moving stuff into/out of a lift gate truck. There are "gaps" to get over that usually results in a lot of straining without the J-Bar. TTFN - Guy From jgh at mdfs.net Wed Mar 7 07:28:38 2012 From: jgh at mdfs.net (J.G.Harston) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:28:38 +0000 Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25bd0ef3990cd10075fbf0c0ca4bd692@mdfs.net> Liam Proven wrote: >> Was the Model B something else entirely or is this just a >> text-centric subset? > It does appear to be at least partially BBC-compatible, though. Essentially, it is a BBC B, with no graphics, sound, printer, serial hardware, and with a 4-line text display. I've got one that I added a network card to and used to use as a printer server. -- J.G.Harston - jgh at mdfs.net - mdfs.net/jgh From alkopop79 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 10:21:26 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:21:26 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised that this schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't under my overdraft... On 6 March 2012 00:55, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > Thanks for the schematics, amazing! > > > On 5 March 2012 09:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2012 Mar 2, at 6:08 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been trying to >>> build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input section. Please >>> let me know if you have built one! Thanks >>> >> >> I was refurbishing a school-project implementation from the 70's (not >> mine originally) just last summer. >> >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/**e/cosmacElf/index.html >> >> There's a re-organised version of the schematic there. >> >> I wasn't familiar with it in depth before this, although I remember it >> from the Pop Electronics article in the 70's. Kinda cute for its simplicity. >> > > From pr at kansasfest.org Wed Mar 7 13:50:39 2012 From: pr at kansasfest.org (Ken Gagne) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:50:39 -0500 Subject: Apple II convention "KansasFest" opens for registration Message-ID: KANSAS CITY, MO -- March 7, 2012 -- KansasFest, the 23rd annual convention dedicated to the Apple II computer, is now open for registration. Users, programmers, hobbyists, and retrocomputing enthusiasts are invited to Rockhurst University in Kansas City, Missouri, from Tuesday, July 17, through Sunday, July 22, for six days and five nights of sessions, demos, announcements, contests, and camaraderie. The week kicks off with a keynote speech John Romero, co-founder of id Software and creator of Wolfenstein 3D, Dangerous Dave, and nearly a hundred other popular computer and video games. Romero will be available immediately afterward for a Q&A and autograph session. The week then offers a variety of presentations and workshops, including but not limited to: * The history of AppleWorks, presented by Randy Brandt * Andy Molloy looks at the best of the Apple II demo scene * Apple II Road Show -- Tony Diaz shows you how to tell authentic hardware from a fake * Build your own Apple II WordPress site with Ken Gagne * Learn to program interactive fiction in Inform 7 with Carrington Vanston * A Kickstarter brainstorming session * HackFest, an annual programming challenge open to coders of all skill levels * A vendor fair and exhibit hall for attendees and the general public to show off, play with, and buy and sell new or unusual hardware and software Attendees are encouraged to share their knowledge by presenting their own hardware and software sessions, especially of the Apple II but including Macintosh, Windows, Linux, iOS, and others. All KansasFest sessions are presented by the attendees, who are known for unscheduled events and debuts, too. Whether it's a behind-the-scenes look at new software, preorder opportunities for new hardware, a live-action text adventure, a podcast recording session, GShisen and Dueltris tournaments, or an athletic round of Bite the Bag, there are experiences to be had and memories made at KansasFest that aren't possible except in the company of surprising, brilliant, diehard Apple II fans. Register before June 1 to guarantee a price of $375 for a double room or $445 for a single, which includes admission to all sessions as well as most meals. Official KansasFest shirts are extra and optional and must be ordered by May 31; registration for staying on-site closes July 8. Veterans of the event are invited to bring a first-time attendee; if each indicates the other's name on the registration form, both will receive a $25 referral rebate at the event. To register, please visit the official Web site at http://www.kansasfest.org/ KansasFest sponsor 16 Sector invites any and all Apple II users, fans, and friends to attend the world's only annual Apple II conference. For photos, videos, schedules, and presentations from past year's events, to sign up for the email list and for inquiries, please visit the event's Web site. CONTACT: Email: http://www.kansasfest.org/contact/ Register: http://www.kansasfest.org/register/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/kansasfest Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/events/382225585123061/ From jonas at otter.se Wed Mar 7 15:13:39 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 22:13:39 +0100 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F57CF83.6010706@otter.se> > Hi > It is not true that the joint has to be mechanically sound before > soldering. > It really depends on the amount of stress you expect the joint > to withstand. > If you are soldering 30 ga. wire wrap wire, tack soldering > will last for a hunderd years if no one yanks on it. > I've done many projects with tack soldering and never had > one fail. > What do you think surfice mount is? > Dwight Point taken, at least partially :-) My information is from an old book about reliable production methods for electronic hardware. Surface mount wasn't invented when it was written. The bit about the joint being mechanically sound refers to wires soldered to tags, lugs etc, where strain or vibration could cause the solder joint to break if the wire wasn't mechanically fastened before it was soldered. For devices built for use in vehicles or industrial environments I think the argument is valid, for office environments probably less so. Also, I am under the impression that heavier surface mount items would be glued down as well as soldered? Obviously, whether the solder will hold or not depends on the weight of the item being soldered and the stresses the device is subjected to. I recently bought a signal generator off the 'net which arrived non-working, because a large (about 2 cm diameter by 10 cm high) electrolytic capacitor had broken loose at one of the solder joints. It was only held by the solder joints. Another problem I have seen, which relates to surface mount devices, is that the instrument cluster on my car (a 1996 BMW) goes dead every now and then, only to come alive again after a moment. A number of people have reported that this appears to be due to bad solder joints on the PCB, which has a number of surface mount devices. /Jonas From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 01:50:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 23:50:58 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4F57CF83.6010706@otter.se> References: , <4F57CF83.6010706@otter.se> Message-ID: <4F57F462.19531.323177D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Mar 2012 at 22:13, Jonas Otter wrote: > Another problem I have seen, which relates to surface mount devices, is > that the instrument cluster on my car (a 1996 BMW) goes dead every now > and then, only to come alive again after a moment. A number of people > have reported that this appears to be due to bad solder joints on the > PCB, which has a number of surface mount devices. I have a Volvo like that--RoHS solder where it has no business being (temperature extremes and vibration). The (Robert Bosch) relays are the biggest problem, with their little PCBs inside. Some Volvo owners preemptively resolder all of the relay boards with good old 60/40 Sn-Pb solder. The problems stop then. Regardless, old components were heavier. You'd put them on a shake table and watch the heavier components break loose. But lightweight SMT components have their own peculiar issues. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 8 02:23:10 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 00:23:10 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 7, at 8:21 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised > that this > schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it > works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't > under my > overdraft... Inverting or non-inverting: it depends on other aspects of the implementation. Comparing with the schematic here: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-35.htm http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-36.htm (There is an error on page 36: IC5 at the RUN switch is labelled as 4050 (non-inverting and correct) but shown as an inverter.) If you are following the original design strictly it looks like there should be a 4049 and two 4050s. The implementation I happen to have uses three 4049s because: - simple LEDs are used for the display and so required inverters, - the display latch is inverted as it is a different latch type, - replaced the RUN-switch single-element non-inverting debounce circuit with a two-inverter circuit like the other debounce circuits. I mentioned my schematic because it shows things on one page and the control flow is clearer, I hope the implementation differences aren't confusing things too much. You mentioned checking a few things, but I don't think you actually told use what the problem symptoms are. Is the 1802 oscillator running? One suggestion would be to check that the levels at the mode inputs of the 1802 are correct for given switch settings. > On 6 March 2012 00:55, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > >> Thanks for the schematics, amazing! >> >> On 5 March 2012 09:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> On 2012 Mar 2, at 6:08 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>> >>> I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been >>> trying to >>>> build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input >>>> section. Please >>>> let me know if you have built one! Thanks >>>> >>> >>> I was refurbishing a school-project implementation from the 70's >>> (not >>> mine originally) just last summer. >>> >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/**e/cosmacElf/index.html>> www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/cosmacElf/index.html> >>> >>> There's a re-organised version of the schematic there. >>> >>> I wasn't familiar with it in depth before this, although I >>> remember it >>> from the Pop Electronics article in the 70's. Kinda cute for its >>> simplicity. >>> >> >> From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 8 03:49:24 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 01:49:24 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5880A4.5010207@jwsss.com> This was about 10 years after my father bought our first house for $4000 in 1953, and inflation had not run up that much. 3900 was a lot of loot. I'm sure it was way less than the IBM 610 you cite, as almost everything then IBM was quite pricy, but I'd not attach the adjective inexpensive to it. Jim On 3/6/2012 11:07 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > The key things that the P101 had going for it was that it was a desktop > machine (though rather large and heavy - 80 pounds), and it was > comparatively inexpensive, selling for around $3900. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 8 03:54:02 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 01:54:02 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5881BA.9040808@jwsss.com> On 3/6/2012 11:08 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> From: lproven at gmail.com >> >> The "Program 101": >> >> http://english.pravda.ru/history/07-03-2012/120702-Program_101_first_personal_computer-0/ >> >> Thoughts? I've never even heard of this product before. >> > Hi > It was a programable calculator. > One could almost say it was a computer because > it did have a conditional branch. Programs could > be saved on magnetic cards. It used delay lines > for registers and memory. > I wouldn't call it a computer. > I'd still like to have had one. > Dwight Dwight, the feature that separated it from just a programmable calculator was that it could compute and store program steps on the fly. I wrote programs specifically to do that. One entered the programs as a series of steps, and you lost storage registers as you added program steps. However you could calculate the location of a program step and carefully modify it. It isn't much, but I think that tips it over into a really small computer with stored program. The cards were for backup, and reusable which was quite a feature in the days of punched cards. the Wangs that came later had only the card reader, and you typing to program it. Anyone recall whether it could generate program steps on the fly or not? I don't recall ever seeing anyone do it. I don't defend it as useful on a machine with effectively 64 locations total (48 years dulls the memory) and only used it to prove the capability. Jim > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 04:02:06 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:02:06 +0000 Subject: re Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962, Audit 5 Message-ID: Has anyone got /seen an Olivetti Audit 5 I assume its just a later version of the 101 I have the magnetic cards from one that was used locally in a clothes shop Dave Caroline From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 8 04:11:16 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 02:11:16 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: <4F57E2C7.2090206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F5885C4.2070202@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2012 7:58 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > * Don't have the ability to perform Boolean logic operations > (bitwise AND, OR, NOT and derivatives) as built-in functions. I t could do register compares and other logic related to calculation steps > * Typically do not have the ability to manipulate text. It was fully equipped in the arithmetic department with operations and branching. > * Typically does not have much in the way of main storage. In > terms of K-bytes of memory, most programmable calculators from this > period max out at around 2K. Many machines had much less than this. In 1963 a 1403 4k memory module cost $250,000 to a friend who was implementing a fore-runner to Ticketmaster, automating a group of manual answering services to have a central location. The cost of memory was nowhere near what it would be a the end of the decade, and would blow the budget for any device that was "personal" if it had much. > * Output is in the form of numeric display (CRT, numeric indicator > tubes(Nixie, Panaplex, VF, LED); limited function output printer > (numeric and function annotation); or both. output was mostly on adding machine paper for me. > * Programs were initially entered via learn-mode, where the > operations provided for by the machine's keyboard were stored into > program memory as "steps". No "language" per-se, just keyboard > operations. No the operations were more complex than just hitting keys. There were a number of mode to take into account when doing programming. > * In most cases, programmable calculators can't do self-modifying > code (though there are a few exceptions where program step and register > memory are overlapped) > * I recall doing exactly this, modifying a program. The register and programming memory was overlapped and could be modified while the program was running. I did just that as mentioned just to do so. On a device with so few resources there was not much one could do. Recall that there was 256 bytes (if memory serves) of ram on the Atari 2600. It had lots of program storage, none easily modified, but only a couple of orders of magnitude more storage than the 101 did. Admittedly there is way more to the story, but I don't agree with the subjective bits of size, etc. Architecturally this was a computer, not just a calculator. I just wish mine worked. The one I have locks up and doesn't run, sad to say, gets the red warning light and stops. Someday hopefully I'll get the time and bravery to fix it. Jim From snowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 05:27:40 2012 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 11:27:40 +0000 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted In-Reply-To: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > - Update .IMD file format specification to provide for > representing disks with non-standard sector sizes or > mixed sector sizes within a track. > Is this still a proposed feature being tried out, or final enough for me to implement too? I was a little surprised it didn't use the next bit in the flags, and the same style maps as for cyl/head values. Would that have missed some cases? From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 06:56:03 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:56:03 +0000 Subject: The Sprow MiniB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 March 2012 23:23, Tony Duell wrote: > > The oterh explanation is that if all the configuration swithces were > open, you got MODE 7 as the pwoer-on defualt. Sicne the DIP swithc (on > the keybaord PCB) was not fitted as standard, and few users soldered one > in, mackines nearly always powered up in Mode 7. Ah, interesting - I did not know this. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dave12 at dunfield.com Thu Mar 8 06:57:41 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 07:57:41 -0500 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted In-Reply-To: References: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com>, Message-ID: <4F58ACC5.14383.5BA444@dave12.dunfield.com> On 8 Mar 2012 at 11:27, Simon Owen wrote: > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > - Update .IMD file format specification to provide for > > representing disks with non-standard sector sizes or > > mixed sector sizes within a track. > > > Is this still a proposed feature being tried out, or final enough for me > to implement too? I was a little surprised it didn't use the next bit in > the flags, and the same style maps as for cyl/head values. Would that > have missed some cases? The reason I didn't use another bit in the heads field is: 1) Unlike the cylinder and head maps where the "master" cylinder and head fields still contain useful data (the physical cylinder and head) - once you have supplied a map of sector sizes, the "master" sector size value becomes meaningless - so why not use it and save the bit in the Head field for future expansions. 2) By changing the track sector-size field to a formerly invalid value, the existing tools will report "Bad sector size" instead of "getting lost" with the unexpected extra data in the track and generating random errors. The map is the same "style" as the others - except that it is 16-bit entries instead of 8-bit entries. This was requested to accomodate the ability to represent arbitrary sector sizes, and given the rarity of mixed-sector-size disks, it seemed reasonable to spend the extra bytes to make the extension provide for both mixed sector sizes and/or non-standard sector sizes. I haven't actually tried, but my read on the NEC 765 controller manual suggests that the PC controller can't format mixed- sector sized disks. It says: "The particular format which will be written is controlled by the values programmed into N (number of bytes/sector), SC (sectors/cylinder), GPL (gap length) and D (data pattern) which are supplied by the processor during the command phase. The ID field for each sector is supplied by the processor, that is, four data requests per sector are made by the FDC for C (cylinder number), H (head number), R (sector number), and N (number of bytes/sector). This allows the disk to be formatted with non-sequencial sector numbers if desired". Note that N,SC,GPL and D are sent only once in the format-track command. C,H,R,N are sent per sector. My interpretation on this is that the 'N' sent during the command controls the physical sector size, and the 'N' sent during the data phase controls only the ID field value. Given that the PC can't recreate mixed-sector sized disks, and their rarity in classic systems (seems to be used more for DOS copy protection schemes), I have not put a high priority on implementing this in ImageDisk itself - I may one day give it the ability to read mixed-sector-sized disks - but it has not been requested and is not a priority at this point. In other words, this is an optional extension to the .IMD file format specification - My tools probably won't implement it any time soon. I added it specifically so that others who needed this capability could support it in a consistant way. As I have just released this update, and as far as I know only one other person is using it so far - it is probably not too late if you have a reason that it should be done differently - please provide feedback. Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From snowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 08:49:12 2012 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:49:12 +0000 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted In-Reply-To: <4F58ACC5.14383.5BA444@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F58ACC5.14383.5BA444@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > 2) By changing the track sector-size field to a formerly invalid > value, the existing tools will report "Bad sector size" instead > of "getting lost" with the unexpected extra data in the track > and generating random errors. > Ah yes, that does seem a better idea :) > I haven't actually tried, but my read on the NEC 765 controller > manual suggests that the PC controller can't format mixed- > sector sized disks. Not directly, but the size code in the format command determines the physical size written on the track for each sector, independent of the size values in the ID data. So you can create a format template from smaller sector sizes to position the sector headers, then write to the data fields of the real sectors to complete the track. In cases where the header size is larger than the template sector size, the extra headers will be overwritten by the data fields. The only control you have is the format size and gap3 value, but it's enough to achieve the mixed sector size combinations I've seen so far. One popular format is 5x1024 + 1x512, to squeeze a bit more on to a 250Kbps MFM track. For that you could use a template of 17x256 with gap3 around 48. Each 1K sector spans 3x256 sectors, plus the accumulated gaps, with the final sector spanning two. The ID header values for the dummy sectors aren't important, as long as they don't match one of the real sectors. Calculating the unit and gap sizes to use for a general case is a bit more work than normal, but I'd imagine you could have a fixed list for known formats (as is done for some gap values). In other words, this is an optional extension to the .IMD file > format specification - My tools probably won't implement it any > time soon. I added it specifically so that others who needed this > capability could support it in a consistant way. > That's good enough for me to include it -- thanks! From snowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 08:49:14 2012 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:49:14 +0000 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update has been posted In-Reply-To: <4F58ACC5.14383.5BA444@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F57BABC.12996.4A7D65@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F58ACC5.14383.5BA444@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > 2) By changing the track sector-size field to a formerly invalid > value, the existing tools will report "Bad sector size" instead > of "getting lost" with the unexpected extra data in the track > and generating random errors. > Ah yes, that does seem a better idea :) > I haven't actually tried, but my read on the NEC 765 controller > manual suggests that the PC controller can't format mixed- > sector sized disks. Not directly, but the size code in the format command determines the physical size written on the track for each sector, independent of the size values in the ID data. So you can create a format template from smaller sector sizes to position the sector headers, then write to the data fields of the real sectors to complete the track. In cases where the header size is larger than the template sector size, the extra headers will be overwritten by the data fields. The only control you have is the format size and gap3 value, but it's enough to achieve the mixed sector size combinations I've seen so far. One popular format is 5x1024 + 1x512, to squeeze a bit more on to a 250Kbps MFM track. For that you could use a template of 17x256 with gap3 around 48. Each 1K sector spans 3x256 sectors, plus the accumulated gaps, with the final sector spanning two. The ID header values for the dummy sectors aren't important, as long as they don't match one of the real sectors. Calculating the unit and gap sizes to use for a general case is a bit more work than normal, but I'd imagine you could have a fixed list for known formats (as is done for some gap values). In other words, this is an optional extension to the .IMD file > format specification - My tools probably won't implement it any > time soon. I added it specifically so that others who needed this > capability could support it in a consistant way. > That's good enough for me to include it -- thanks! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Mar 8 09:25:10 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:25:10 +0000 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I want this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/commodore-sx-64-/190649364678?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item2c639670c6#ht_500wt_1173 But Bedfordshire is really far away. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 09:43:22 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:43:22 -0500 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: <4F5665FA.5050305@philpem.me.uk> <20120307135244.GR3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <20120307153054.GX3334@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <1D996E0B-68ED-47B5-83EE-48190A8C454D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:25 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > I want this: ?http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/commodore-sx-64-/190649364678?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item2c639670c6#ht_500wt_1173 A fun machine and not a bad price for it. Cheaper than the shipping and COD fee I paid for the one I have. -ethan From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Mar 8 10:50:32 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 17:50:32 +0100 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: <4F582858.4070404@snarc.net> References: <4f57fbe8.e2033c0a.36b7.ffffc36e@mx.google.com> <4F580D5A.8000705@snarc.net> <729855BD-AF1C-42C0-9C58-03C01B6BB216@cs.ubc.ca> <4F582858.4070404@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F58E358.6080507@bluewin.ch> On 03/08/2012 04:32 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> >>>> I found a picture: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/desk_09867.html >>> >>> Can someone translate the advertisement: >>> http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/adv_18199.html >> >> Google translation: >> >> With its small size and >> bedienngseenvoud of an office machine, >> Olivetti, the 101 Program all critical benefits >> of electronic charge, which until now were needed for larger devices. >> >> Namely: fast hero, Logicam, programming capabilities and afleesvoorzieningen. >> It is, moreover, the first computer that a table >> program can register on magnetic cards. Where the ordinary calculator inadequate and the big machine is less desirable, >> find the program 101 Olivetti precise destination. For scientific research and technical calculations. For administrative and statistical purposes. > > > Ummm .... can someone who * actually speaks the language * translate it please .... > So lets see : The P101 : a computer on your desk. With its small size and the ease of use of an office appliance, the P101 offers you all essential advantages of electronic calculations that up to now needed bigger machines. To know : speed, logic (?), programming- and reading capabilities. It is also the first desktopcomputer that can register programs on magnetic cards. Where the normal calculator is insufficient, and a bigger machine is undesired, the P101 will find its niche. For scientific investigations and technical calculations. For administrative and statistical purposes. Jos From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 11:39:27 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:39:27 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> The first listing, that ended without meeting reserve, is still up if you want to see what it was. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=220965768120 On 3/7/2012 3:29 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was > actually of. The original posting suggested a computer, but later postings > seem to imply something else. And I don't get the reference to hip waders > either, does this have a US-specific meaning perhaps? > > Regards > > Rob > From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 11:42:24 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:42:24 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F58EF80.1030603@gmail.com> and he just relisted it as I was typing the other message. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Minuteman-I-Missile-Guidance-Computer-Nuclear-Warhead-ICBM-ballistic-missile-/220971217606? On 3/7/2012 3:29 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Since the listing has been withdrawn, I can't tell what the listing was > actually of. The original posting suggested a computer, but later postings > seem to imply something else. And I don't get the reference to hip waders > either, does this have a US-specific meaning perhaps? > > Regards > > Rob > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 8 12:15:40 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:15:40 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F58EF80.1030603@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EF80.1030603@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0800 3/8/12, DC wrote: >and he just relisted it as I was typing the other message. > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Minuteman-I-Missile-Guidance-Computer-Nuclear-Warhead-ICBM-ballistic-missile-/220971217606? Thanks, I needed a good laugh! :-) Based on the photo's, I think more than the memory has been pulled. Looks like all that is there is the backplane. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 8 12:27:40 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:27:40 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EF80.1030603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F58FA1C.1020405@jwsss.com> The drum / disk is present, and may be complete. Not worth 100k, but worth more than scrap value. Jim On 3/8/2012 10:15 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:42 AM -0800 3/8/12, DC wrote: >> and he just relisted it as I was typing the other message. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Minuteman-I-Missile-Guidance-Computer-Nuclear-Warhead-ICBM-ballistic-missile-/220971217606? >> > > Thanks, I needed a good laugh! :-) > > Based on the photo's, I think more than the memory has been pulled. > Looks like all that is there is the backplane. > > Zane > > > > From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Mar 8 12:55:46 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:55:46 -0300 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <65EF3878A372491D9D442B364677E731@EMACHINE> References: <65EF3878A372491D9D442B364677E731@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <201203081858.q28IwisZ029895@billy.ezwind.net> In 1981 I was invited to watch a Burroughs technician apply a patch to the university's B6700 mainframe. The machine was entirely wire-wrapped. He came in and pulled out the affected board and opened a sealed package that included some drawings and text, two pieces of wire precut to the correct length and with the ends stripped plus a manual wire-wrap tool. I was surprised to see the latter for two reasons: we used powered wire-wrap tools on our own boards (based on the 6800 processor and which interfaced to the B6700 by emulating a terminal) and the idea that each patch should pack a separate tool seemed silly since this isn't exactly medical supply or something. Having done a lot of wire-wrapping with both powered tools and manually, I can do it either way without much trouble. Powered tools are faster and more consistent, but most of the improved results I got with them were due to using a much better wire stripper than the one built into the manual tool. In 1986 I had finished a 68000 computer done entirely in wire-wrap and the number one problem had been finding a low cost board that was large enough. The solution was to buy two boards and mount them in a wooden picture frame, as seen on the right side of these two pictures: http://www.smalltalk.org.br/fotos/inova6.jpg http://www.smalltalk.org.br/fotos/inova7.jpg Since the 68000 would take up a significant board area, I arranged it so each row of pins was on a separate board and below the chip was the gap between the boards. The boards had wide copper tracks which would make a nice power distribution system, but I ended up having to do the power in wire-wrap too and that turned out to be a significant part of the construction effort. One month before the big computer show in Brazil, my partner decided that this black and white Mac-like machine was too pathetic and asked me to design a more powerful version with color. This is the machine on the left in those pictures. We didn't have time for a normal wire-wrap prototype and my partner wanted something that looked closer to a finished product. We had just bought a PCB CAD program (I think it was called SmartWorks) but a quick test showed that though it helped with regular designs like the memory banks, the random parts of the design would take more time than wire-wrap. So my friend, Ruy Cesar Pinto Neto, came up with the idea of doing the memory as a normal PCB with the CAD (you had to print it twice with the dot matrix to get it dark enough at four times the normal size and then photographically reduce it to get the PCB masks) and to do the random part as a single sided PCB with just the power distribution and normal IC sockets (costing a fraction of what the equivalent wire-wrap sockets cost) with each pin connected with a very short track to a wire-wrap post on the component side. It was amazing how much faster it was to wire-wrap without constantly flipping over the board. The wires had to be a little longer since they had to snake around the components instead of being point to point but that didn't prove to be a problem. We actually were able to build three who prototypes (of which two were working) by the start of the computer show. With the two boards connected to each other, the wire-wrap was completely hidden and the result looked like something that was reasonably close to shipping. http://www.smalltalk.org.br/fotos/inova3.jpg Though the two projects I did after this one used traditional wire-wrap, my experience with this hybrid technique was very positive and I recommend it. My big mistake was not designing in some spare 14 and 16 pins sockets - you can see a 14 pin wire-wrap socket glued on its side on the top right of the bottom board in the second picture as the result of this. -- Jecel From tom94022 at comcast.net Thu Mar 8 13:22:52 2012 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 11:22:52 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1666AB65AA4D74BBA260CEAB1E52E6@tegp4> Anyone have any more information on the magnetic card and its reader? Tom From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 8 13:26:28 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 20:26:28 +0100 Subject: Free DEC SA600 Rack - Illinois In-Reply-To: References: <20120307192313.0b6cb863.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120308202628.d966f8d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:51:06 +0000 Ian King wrote: > Jochen, that's why you always bring a tow rope. Seems to me those old DEC > casters ought to be good for 20-30 km/h?. :-) Well. Would have been interresting to tow a H960 at 20km/h over a distance of more then 100 km on the german Autobahn... ;-) The next problem was: There is simply no space left in my flat. It's getting a real problem. :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Mar 8 13:41:14 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:41:14 +0000 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <335C5B04-65CD-4440-8D95-7789F14C809A@gmail.com> References: , <4F563435.19923.174C225@cclist.sydex.com>, <25C28E2A-7864-484B-A68B-F72E76B61798@gmail.com> <4F565053.21950.1E295BF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120307221642.C1969A58299@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F57E227.3000100@neurotica.com> <335C5B04-65CD-4440-8D95-7789F14C809A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D800E2A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: David Riley Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:43 PM > On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 03/07/2012 05:16 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >>>> The Nuclear Data ND812 CPU is all wire-wrapped SSI/MSI 7400 series logic. >>> Another production unit that shipped with lots of wire-wrap on board was >>> the IBM 3803 tape controller. E.g. from Pat's collection: >>> http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/3803-back-open-small.jpg >> Many (most?) DEC backplanes, like the PDP-11/70: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/albums/pdp1170/DSCN1161.JPG > Also all of the PDP-10 backplanes, unless I heard wrong. > My '11 backplane (whose number I keep forgetting) is a PCB, but > they kindly left wire wrap stakes on the back so I could convert > it to 22-bit. DEC began using Gardner-Denver wirewrap machines with the advent of the PDP-7 and FlipChip(TM) circuit boards. Prior to the -7, every computer built by DEC was hand soldered by teams of engineers and technicians. (One piece of the PDP-7, the DECtape controller, is shared with the PDP-4, and is constructed of System Modules(TM) connected by a soldered backplane.) NB: Those (TM) may be (R). I'm not going to bother to check right now. ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 8 14:18:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 12:18:32 -0800 Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D800E2A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: , <335C5B04-65CD-4440-8D95-7789F14C809A@gmail.com>, <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D800E2A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F58A398.20650.EABC58@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Mar 2012 at 19:41, Rich Alderson wrote: > NB: Those (TM) may be (R). I'm not going to bother to check right > now. ;-) Actually "Wire-wrap" is (TM) Cooper Industries... http://www.cooperhandtools.com.au/PDFs/Wire-Wrap%2009.pdf I can't imagine wrapping with 18AWG wire, but there it is... --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:21:37 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:21:37 -0600 Subject: IBM, DEC and a backache Message-ID: So once again I heed the call of classiccmp in distress and once again the mini-truck was packed to the brim and riding low. We cleaned out a storeroom of a small college last weekend and finally got everything unloaded last night - everything that would fit, that is. Had to leave some TRS-80s behind (always painful) but fortunately they were scooped up later the same night by another local collector. Here's my haul: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/March1Haul The incomplete inventory: - 5x IBM RT systems: 3x 6150 towers, 2x 6151 desktops - some variances in name and badging amongst all these which will have to be explored - 6x IBM RT monitors: 4x 5081 "Megapel" displays, 2x 6154 "Advanced Color Graphics Display" (I don't know which, if any, of the RTs have the necessary Megapel card) - 2x IBM 6157 Streaming Tape drives, one apparently NIB - IBM 8228 Token Ring MAU, NIB - IBM RT 8-port serial cards and break-out boxes, some boxed - DEC half-rack - DEC PDP 11/23 Plus system to be inventoried soon - quick check shows 11/73 CPU upgrade and Emulex SCSI card - Emulex PE02 Medley drive - Boxed DEC VT220 terminal (not sure if it's unused or not) - Boxed DEC LK201 terminal keyboard - IBM RT keyboards, not enough for all these systems - Various IBM RT docs, some in box - Various ISA cards to be ID'd later I already owned an RT desktop (6151 of some sort) and a small monochrome display which, if I went downstairs to check, would probably turn out to be a 5151, so I'm marginally familiar with RT stuff. But now that this load has appeared, more opportunities are opened...especially when it comes to graphics. It will take some weeks to ID all this stuff and figure out what's what, but I'd love to see the "Megapel" system in action. There are a few disks in the documentation box but I don't believe there is an OS. Anyone know if there are images out there? I think these things use regular PC floppy drives so hopefully the disk format is writable with the tools out there. Or, did the OS come on tape instead? If I read the right FAQ, RTs used ESDI drives. Imaging these drives will be a priority. I have an ISA ESDI controller (somewhere) that I could possibly put into a Linux box. I have no idea what filesystem early AIX used or if there is a way to mount it in another Unix. If the RTs work (or at least one does,) I could dump to tape or some other removable media instead. Despite the size of this haul....no mice. And of course, like the keyboards, IBM RT mice are proprietary, or at least the connectors are. I'll have to check the FAQs and such out there to see if anyone has adapted a PS/2 mouse to it. If these did have the graphics boards, I'd expect to have seen mice with them. But thanks to their size and relative uselessness, those mice were probably the first things to get tossed out :( Now on to the PDP...haven't dug into the cards inside yet but I do see an Emulex SCSI board, so that is automatic win. Can anyone ID the PE02 drive? I can't tell if that's 1/4" tape or what? Google isn't helpful. Taking on that half-rack is the reason for my post for the free SA600 rack (no takers yet on that, btw.) Despite what the realtor told me, the basement is a finite space. I am trying to find more info on what these machines did. I was told the PDP was used for students learning Pascal. Stuffed into its case was a printout with instructions on booting it into UNIX, so that's probably what it ran. The RTs did some sort of administration task at the college, so I am expecting to find AIX on them rather than AOS, the "Academic Operating System" that was used on some RTs in educational settings. I've found the RT FAQ and pcrt.info (which looks like a spam site) so far....any other RT experts or resources will be appreciated. With some luck and work, VCFMW's on-site server may be running AIX 1.x this year ;) -- jht From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 14:45:27 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:45:27 -0800 Subject: IBM, DEC and a backache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice haul. What did that cost you besides time and gas money? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:05:50 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:05:50 -0500 Subject: IBM, DEC and a backache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > There are a few disks in the documentation box but I don't believe > there is an OS. ?Anyone know if there are images out there? ?I think > these things use regular PC floppy drives so hopefully the disk format > is writable with the tools out there. ?Or, did the OS come on tape > instead? I have a bunch of it - perhaps I should dig it out and send you some. While I talk you out of that NIB 6157. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 15:16:20 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:16:20 -0600 Subject: IBM, DEC and a backache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have a bunch of it - perhaps I should dig it out and send you some. > While I talk you out of that NIB 6157. That _could_ happen :) Going to have to make sure the other one is functional, first. This looks like the same tape drive I sometimes see with PCs? The OS you have - is it on floppy or tape? From cb at kryoflux.com Thu Mar 8 15:38:01 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 22:38:01 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux power rail (was: Re: Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A6CC299-3CD1-4E83-8A32-5793FD1376B6@kryoflux.com> > > Though I was not specifically responding to the concerns over KryoFlux, > I would refer not to the input protection response, but this one: "and > there's lack of protection overall, especially in the power supply.". Like ZoomFloppy KryoFlux does not need external power at all. It is a bus-powered device. However, we added the option to feed in external power (just in case). There are two options for this power rail: protected (the user feeds 7-9 volts via the low voltagee connector or +12 via the molex, both are exactly regulated to +5V for the +5V rail and secured with a diode) or unprotected. Users are advised not to use the unprotected rail (needs changing a jumper) unless they know what they are doing. >> > I would really like to avoid the impression something is broken. It's >> > not, it's working. > I think it would be helpful to address the power supply protection > concern. Rightly or otherwise, prospective customers could conjecture > that this might impact or damage their precious disk drive mechanisms or > electronics. As I said... it's bus powered. And protected with voltage regulators and diodes. How much can you do with 500mA and +5V? I don't see any risk for the drive attached. Of course you can always be more protective, but at what cost? If you look a popular electronics you will find that there are some things you simply rely on. Like the correct voltage coming out of the USB port, a switching PSU or the correct polarity of a PSU. I found a friend's SNES dead because it simply has no protection diode. He'd attached a replacement PSU and soldered the connector himself? Wrong polarity. Oops. I am not saying that completely leaving that out was a wise idea, but it works for them. I am pretty satisfied with what we have. In other words? an airbag is fine. Putting the whole car in some kind of styrofoam makes driving a hassle. > > I took my position from > "http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1230. At least with > ZoomFloppy, people expect to both image and write disks with the > product. From the FAQ, I see that DTC will not write file back to disk, > but Analyzer can. If the FAQ is wrong, I based my concern on invalid > information. Thanks for pointing this out. DTC has evolved and, by now, also supports writing of IPF and ADF back to disk. More to come. You would need the Analyser to create IPF files as this is beyond the capabilities of DTC. IPFs are not the result of a conversion process, instead it's an auto scripting feature that will, for most disks, describe the mastering data. The rest needs manual adjustments. > I do have to handle feedback and questions for such a product, and I > understand it's a pain at times. However, since your tool images more > obscure formats and drive mechanisms, I struggle with the idea that > there are a huge number of uninterested folks who want the tool but > aren't savvy enough to learn it. This is, admittedly, a very elite > group in this space. Well? we do support so many systems by now? without doing anything, I have a dozen of tickets popping up. Every day? As I said before, this is something very special and it was never meant to be for "mass-consumption". That does not mean we don't give people access. There's actually people out there using it. > I think your "does not demand a response" itself is a response. When > people "google" for this thread, they'll no doubt find this response. I > can't carry the ball further here, I have no horse in this race. I > think simply responding to it puts the focus back on others. Thanks for asking. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 14:40:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 20:40:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: from "=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=" at Mar 7, 12 04:21:26 pm Message-ID: > > I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised that this > schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it I haev not looekd at these schematics, but the 4049 is a hex inverting buffer, the 4050 is a hex non-inverting buffer. Unless 2 sections of them are always cascaded, it's hard to see how replacing one with the other won't make a difference. > works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't under my > overdraft... Ouch, things must be bad. Last time I looked, 4049s/4050s were under a pound each... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 14:48:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 20:48:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F57AF81.6090207@gmail.com> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Mar 7, 12 01:57:05 pm Message-ID: > Christian, if there's no anti-compete clause in the license, then please I haev read the license, and although IANAL, I was astounded by it. IMHO anyone who agrees to that needs their head examining!. As I understand it, you can read such source code as is provided, but uyou can;'t modify it or compile it, even for your own use. You can't make 'competing products'. In partciular you can't write programs to dump the image files back to physical disks. And as I understand it, the free version fo the scftware won't do this, you have to pay for that capability. So if, in the future, the Kryoflux software is no longer available, there is no legal way to make physcia ldisks from the images. This does NOT sound like a good idea for preservation to me. FWIW, I think this part about not developing cometing productis is 100% ridiculous. My lathe didn't come with a l'license' telling me I could not make accessories that competed wit hthe offical ones, in fact it's expected that you will. My HP calculators don't come with licenses prohibiting me from using them for calculations involved in designign prodcuts that compete with HP. I've never seen a license agreement for a compiler that prohibts you from using it to develop other compilers (including oens for that same language). And so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 14:51:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 20:51:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 7, 12 11:29:41 pm Message-ID: > seem to imply something else. And I don't get the reference to hip waders > either, does this have a US-specific meaning perhaps? I took it to mean those waterprorof boots/trousers, as the term is used in the UK. I think you need them to avoid the quantities of bovine excrement that seem to surround the listing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 15:31:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:31:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 7, 12 07:58:16 pm Message-ID: > > Evan wrote: > > > To be clear: do you not consider the P101 a "computer" at all? If so, > then > > what's your distinction between "calculator" and "computer" when the > 101 > > has conditional branching? > > I guess I didn't really explain my thoughts about the differences in my > diatribe. > > I am referencing "programmable calculators", not calculators in general. > A plain old calculator is not a computer in any way, as it has no way to > program it or store a program. I would argue that certin non-progammable calcualtors which ahve the internal architecutre of a computer (this is a procesosr running a program, albeit one stored in ROM) are possibly dedicated or embedded computers. > > I limit the scope of my definition during the timeframe from 1963 (when > the Mathatron was introduced) through around 1972, when the HP 9830 came > about. That machine really blurred the line between programmable > calculator and computer. Even though the machine was (in my opinion) a > computer, it was conceived by HP's calculator division, and was marketed > as an advanced programmable calculator. =20 I think the HP9830 is a computer by any reasonable definitio on of 'computer'. It's user-rpgrammable in what is normally considered ot be a computer language (BASIC). It can handle text as well as numbers (although to do anything other than simply prining labels for inputs and results youy need an add-on String Variable ROM). The intenral archtecutre is certianly that of a computer. I heard somewhere that the reson it was called a calculaotrs is much the same reaons that DEC made Programmed Data Processors (and not 'computers'). At the time, everybody 'knew' what a computer was. A thing you rented from IBM that lived in an air-conditioned room and which needed a grounp of people to run it. A calculator on the otehr hand was a thing consitign a few thousand dolalrs that you put on a desk or lab bench and plugged into the mains. Engineers/scientiests knew what they were getting when they ordered an HP9830. But by calling it a calculator, there were no problems in the company ordering/accounts department :-) > =20 > An interesting factor that calculator companies took into account when > classifying their machines as "programmable calculators" versus > "computers" is that from a marketing standpoint in the early 1970's, > computers were intimidating to people, while calculators were much more > familiar to people in business and government. Thus, even more advanced > machines made after this timeframe, such as HP's 9825, were marketed as > programmable calculators rather than computers, though the machine was > definitely more of a computer than a programmable calculator. The term > programmable calculator allowed these machines to sneak through the bean > counters who generally went into panic when they saw the term "computer" > on a purchase requisition. I should haev read on before typign my reply :-) > > I am also considering just the base device itself, without add on > peripherals in cases where such were available. > > * Primarily has input, and is operated through, a keyboard that > has a numeric keypad (0-9), and discrete function keys for mathematical > & programming operations. Lacks an alphanumeric keyboard. One definition I'ev heard is the 'key per function' one. A calculator has a 'SIN' key, on a computer you type it out as 3 letters. Alas this makes the Sinclair ZX80./81/Spectrum a 'calculator'.... > * Operates primarily as a decimal math machine, meaning its > registers store numbers in BCD (Binary-Coded Decimal), Excess-3, or > other 4-bit representations of decimal digits, and the ALU is generally > not a pure binary device (most ALUs were 4-bit parallel BCD adders, or > bit-serial adders that had correction circuitry to handle inter-bit and > inter-digit carry). FWIOW, the HP9810/20/30 ALU is bit-serial for binary operations and 4-bit parallel for BSCD addition. > * Don't have the ability to perform Boolean logic operations > (bitwise AND, OR, NOT and derivatives) as built-in functions. So the HP16C is not a calculator :-) [...] > * No interrupt handling architecture. I/O is typically polled or > handled by pausing execution until an I/O is completed. The HP9810/20/30 have an interrupt line. It's tested my the CPU microocde at the start of every machine instruction. For interest, here's the bit of microcode that does it : --------------------- Incremnt PC -- Note on entry to this section, BC is normally clear if BC is set, then P is incremnted by 2 -- thus skiping the next machine instruction 0202 : 7d4708c : TTM=0;TTT=1;SC=3(UTS);X=5(TTP);R=1(PTR);ALU=7(ADD);BRC=0 0202 : 7d4708c : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=0;sec=1;pri=c; 0202 : 7d4708c : M,P = (1) ADD (P); 0202 : 7d4708c : clocks=1; goto (1603) Add 1 to LSB of P (result also in M) 1603 : 4d47ec0 : TTM=0;TTT=1;SC=0(ZTS);X=5(TTP);R=1(PTR);ALU=7(ADD);BRC=0 1603 : 4d47ec0 : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=e;sec=9;pri=0; 1603 : 4d47ec0 : M,P = (0) ADD (P); 1603 : 4d47ec0 : clocks=15; goto (1612) Add 0 to rest of P (thus adding 0001h to P) 1612 : cf31b28 : TTM=1;TTT=1;SC=0(ZTS);X=7(NOP);R=6(RDM);ALU=4(ZTTCBC);BRC=0 1612 : cf31b28 : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=b;sec=4;pri=8; 1612 : cf31b28 : = (0) ZTTCBC (); RDM ; 1612 : cf31b28 : clocks=12; goto (0616) Fetch -- Read next machine instruction from memory into T 0616 : d085fac : TTM=1;TTT=1;SC=2(TTS);X=0(TTQ);R=0(UTR);ALU=1(AND);BRC=1 0616 : d085fac : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=f;sec=5;pri=c; 0616 : d085fac : Q = (T) AND (1); 0616 : d085fac : clocks=16; if (QNR) goto (1213,1212) And transfer it into Q. Handle I/O service request, or go to instruction decode routine --------------------- I/O service request handler. This does an I/O operation with Q=0, clearing the service reuqest F/F. It then executes the instruction at location 0002, but doesn't load P. In fact P is decremented so that at the end of the instruction (or subroutine if the instruction at location 2 is JSM, which it normally is), the current instruction is re-fetched and executed. 1212 : fd47f44 : TTM=1;TTT=1;SC=3(UTS);X=5(TTP);R=1(PTR);ALU=7(ADD);BRC=0 1212 : fd47f44 : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=f;sec=8;pri=4; 1212 : fd47f44 : P = (1) ADD (P); 1212 : fd47f44 : clocks=16; goto (1602) Add FFFFh to P, thus decrementing it (BC is always clear on entry to this routine, having been cleared in the fetch routine at 1612). 1602 : 4077060 : TTM=0;TTT=1;SC=0(ZTS);X=0(TTQ);R=7(ZTR);ALU=3(ZTT);BRC=0 1602 : 4077060 : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=0;sec=c;pri=0; 1602 : 4077060 : M,Q = (0) ZTT (0); 1602 : 4077060 : clocks=1; goto (1616) Shift a 0 into M and Q 1616 : c173e80 : TTM=1;TTT=1;SC=0(ZTS);X=0(TTQ);R=7(ZTR);ALU=6(IORSBC);BRC=0 1616 : c173e80 : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=e;sec=1;pri=0; 1616 : c173e80 : Q = (0) IORSBC (0); 1616 : c173e80 : clocks=15; goto (1617) Shift 15 more 0s into Q, set carry. Q is now clear 1617 : 4f77e37 : TTM=0;TTT=1;SC=0(ZTS);X=7(NOP);R=7(ZTR);ALU=7(ADD);BRC=0 1617 : 4f77e37 : IQN=0;XTR=1;clk=e;sec=6;pri=7; 1617 : 4f77e37 : M = (0) ADD (0); 1617 : 4f77e37 : clocks=15; goto (1111) Add 15 0's to M. BC is set, so M ends up containing 0002 (address of I/O service machine instruction) 1111 : ce4e097 : TTM=1;TTT=1;SC=0(ZTS);X=7(NOP);R=1(PTR);ALU=3(ZTT);BRC=0 1111 : ce4e097 : IQN=1;XTR=0;clk=0;sec=3;pri=7; 1111 : ce4e097 : = (0) ZTT (A/B,P); IOS; 1111 : ce4e097 : clocks=1; IQN(QBC); goto (1612) Start an I/O operation. Q, and in particular Q(10) is clear, so the service reqeust FF is reset. Then go to the Fetch routine to execute the instruction at location 0002h > * The HP 9100A/B and 9810/9820/9821 match most of these, though > self-modifying code was possible on the 9100's, although rather tedious > to do. These machines could be significantly increased in capabilities > with add-ons, but again, I'm only considering the base unit and not > add-ons. I would argue that the fact a machine cna be expanded, particularly if new funcitons can be addded (e.g. by add-on ROMs), rahter htan just connecting it to a printer, say, then the machine is more like a computer than a calcualtor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 8 15:06:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:06:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: In defense of wire-wrap; was: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Mar 7, 12 09:31:51 pm Message-ID: > > > Generally speaking, if Ma Bell adopted a technology, it was probably > > pretty durable. =A0Modular plugs excepted. > > Real Western Electric modular plugs are actually very good and can > withstand a zillion insert cycles. > > But there hasn't been a real WE modular plug made in a very long time... I do not like the design of the latch on the modular plugs, or indeed the UK telehpone plug (Plug 431A, ec). The latck has the annoying habit of getting snagged on the cable when you're untnagling the latter and breaking off. I ahev seen UK typve plugs with the top of the latch forrmed int oa flexible lookp that joins onto the plug body to prevent this problem. Whether modular plugs are mad like this I don't know, I've never seen one. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 17:03:25 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 23:03:25 +0000 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8 March 2012 21:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > One definition I'ev heard is the 'key per function' one. A calculator has > a 'SIN' key, on a computer you type it out as 3 letters. Alas this makes > the Sinclair ZX80./81/Spectrum a 'calculator'.... Perhaps Alan Sugar, sorry, /Lord/ Sugar was right in his description. Speaking of the CPC464, he said: ?Our ?rst computer was a very typical Amstrad concept. We sat down and observed all this computer stuff. And we saw what people were actually buying with computers. They needed lots of cables and cassette decks, and then they had to plug it into a television. ?I decided that the Amstrad philosophy is an all-in-one piece, so we would present our product as complete with a keyboard, cassette mechanism and monitor ? It looked like a mug?s eyeful for the old man when he walked into Dixons. He looks at this thing, with its whacking great big keyboard and a monitor, and he has visions of a girl at Gatwick airport where he checks himself in for his holidays. And he thinks, ?That?s a real computer, not this pregnant calculator thing over there called a Sinclair?? [p123 David Thomas. Alan Sugar: The Amstrad Story. Century, 1990.] -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 8 17:10:11 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:10:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1331248211.54920.YahooMailClassic@web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> That is correct, sir. Interesting with the relisted auction again. Wonder what change was in the auction, I guess the seller closed it or revised something for ebay to be happy? I agree, I think it would be an interesting donation to a museum or such. Wish the memory was installed, that'd be neat to see. --- On Thu, 3/8/12, Tony Duell wrote: > From: Tony Duell > Subject: Re: Put on the hip waders > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 2:51 PM > I took it to mean those waterproof boots/trousers, as the > term is used in > the UK. I think you need them to avoid the quantities of > bovine > excrement that seem to surround the listing. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 8 17:44:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> The new listing adds the word computer in the title, rather than implying that what is being sold is an ICBM. It adds, "declassified by the militray and made inoperable with memory or hard drive disk". It adds, "They were dcommissioned by the strtegic are [sic] command and the hard drive and memory banks were erased." It adds, "This is the first personnel [sic] computer that could run with commands on its' [sic] own." THOSE changes were probably enough to get it out of EBay's "weapons and munitions" category. But, note: "This is the first personnel [sic] computer that could run with commands on its' [sic] own." Does that settle, once and for all, the entire issue of what was the first personal computer? Or do "personnel" (ANTI-personnel?) computers not count? From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 18:16:10 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 00:16:10 +0000 Subject: Free Sinclair stuff on Twitter Message-ID: @DeltaNC: If anyone would like a ZX81, a Rubberkey or a Plus let me know. I have one of each and they're getting skipped otherwise. Untested, no PSUs. @DeltaNC: Reading an old Spectrum instruction manual, specifically about loading software. You "App Store" kids don't know how good you have it! That's https://twitter.com/#!/DeltaNC if you don't speak Tweet. Anyone interested? I think they're in Glasgow. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 8 18:54:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:54:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I haev read the license, and although IANAL, I was astounded by it. > IMHO anyone who agrees to that needs their head examining!. I haven't read the whole thing, just snippets jgevaryahu posted here. But, based on those snippets (and assuming they're accurate, of course), I think you're overstating the case. For example... > You can't make 'competing products'. ...no, you can't use "the Technology" to make competing products. jgevaryahu didn't post enough for me to be sure what "the Technology" means - and I would check if I cared - but I would expect it to refer to KryoFlux's work and nothing more, in which case this strikes me as eminently reasonable. In the stuff jgevaryahu posted, most the restrictions cited are of this nature. I do see one glaring exception, that being 3.d(ii); if I were doing data preservation any such clause in the license for a tool would completely eliminate that tool from consideration for me. Actually, if I really cared, I'd look into the possibility that their idea of what constitutes a derivative work disagrees with applicable copyright law, which might end up leading to simply ignoring that clause (I'm not sure whether a license gets to redefine well-estbalished technical terms like "derivative work"). On the other hand, the potential hassle factor of dealing with an infringement suit also might lead me to drop the option even then. It most certainly would cause me to include them out of anything I might do as an individual. Closed file formats - and this is an even more egregious form of "closed" than most - are nonstarters for me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 19:01:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:01:56 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> On 03/08/2012 07:54 PM, Mouse wrote: > It most certainly would cause me to include them out of anything I > might do as an individual. Closed file formats - and this is an even > more egregious form of "closed" than most - are nonstarters for me. I've been trying to stay out of what has become a very "barbed" thread, but this time I can't resist voicing agreement. Closed file formats are indeed evil; only the clueless would disagree with that. But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy disks which have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact purpose of the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 8 19:30:41 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 19:30:41 -0600 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203090130.q291Ub3F038532@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:01 PM 3/8/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy disks which have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact purpose of the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! Yeah, but the companies are long-dead and their developers aren't on the list, so who else can someone bitch at? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 19:42:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:42:51 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <201203090130.q291Ub3F038532@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> <201203090130.q291Ub3F038532@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F59601B.1060501@neurotica.com> On 03/08/2012 08:30 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:01 PM 3/8/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy disks which >> have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact purpose of >> the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! > > Yeah, but the companies are long-dead and their developers aren't on > the list, so who else can someone bitch at? I have no problem with the bitching. Just saying replacing one "closed file format" with another is probably a bad idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 19:52:47 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 20:52:47 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <201203090130.q291Ub3F038532@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> <201203090130.q291Ub3F038532@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Yeah, but the companies are long-dead and their developers aren't > on the list, so who else can someone bitch at? This hold thread has been a waste of typing. It's like a bunch of Jews and Baptists trying to convert each other. Actually, that is how all open/closed source arguments are, right? -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 8 19:53:13 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 20:53:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203090153.UAA13355@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Closed file formats are indeed evil; only the clueless would disagree > with that. But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy > disks which have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact > purpose of the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! They are indeed. I don't have much to do with such things; if I were doing data preservation, the whole point of my work would be to replace such a thing with something that _can_ be read. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 19:57:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:57:34 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> <201203090130.q291Ub3F038532@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F59638E.4020404@neurotica.com> On 03/08/2012 08:52 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Yeah, but the companies are long-dead and their developers aren't >> on the list, so who else can someone bitch at? > > This hold thread has been a waste of typing. It's like a bunch of Jews > and Baptists trying to convert each other. > > Actually, that is how all open/closed source arguments are, right? Well, except there are very clear lines between "good" and "bad" in this case. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 8 20:07:29 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 18:07:29 -0800 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: References: from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 7, 12 07:58:16 pm Message-ID: Tony responded to my programmable calculator "definitions" discussion: > I would argue that certin non-progammable calcualtors which ahve the > internal architecutre of a computer (this is a procesosr running a program, > albeit one stored in ROM) are possibly dedicated or embedded computers. Yes, I would agree, but the scope of this discussion was related to programmable calculators. There were definitely calculators that weren't programmable, such as many of the Computer Design Corporation (Compucorp with Monroe & Sumlock among others, as OEM customer) calculators that didn't include the LEMP (Learn Mode Programming) feature, of which there were quite a few, definitely had a computer-like architecture, with their multi-chip calculator logic chipset essentially being an early multi-chip microprocessor, with ROM-based firmware. These machines were quite ahead of their time. > > > > > I limit the scope of my definition during the timeframe from 1963 (when > > the Mathatron was introduced) through around 1972, when the HP 9830 > > came about. That machine really blurred the line between programmable > > calculator and computer. Even though the machine was (in my opinion) a > > computer, it was conceived by HP's calculator division, and was marketed > > as an advanced programmable calculator. > > I think the HP9830 is a computer by any reasonable definitio on of > 'computer'. It's user-rpgrammable in what is normally considered ot be a > computer language (BASIC). It can handle text as well as numbers > (although to do anything other than simply prining labels for inputs and > results youy need an add-on String Variable ROM). The intenral > archtecutre is certianly that of a computer. I don't disagree at all. The ability to print strings (as opposed to the basic digit & limited symbol printers that print on adding machine tape of most calculators, even some programmables like the Programma 101 and those from Sharp, among others) in base form, as with the 9830, pushes the machine more in the direction of computer. Add on the string variable ROM, and it's firmly a computer, as it can actually process text. A criteria that might fit is: Could you write a simple text editor or word processor using the base programmable calculator? For the 9830 in stock form, no. Add the string variable ROM, and the answer becomes yes. Perhaps by this question, the 9830 in base form is still a programmable calculator, but I really have a problem with that and still would say that the 9830 in base form is more computer than calculator, despite HP's marketing, and the fact that it is a little fuzzy on some of the rules. If you could answer yes to this question for an instrument in base form, then my supposition would be that it is a computer. In base form, just about every programmable calculator that I know of from this time range, you would have to answer no to the question. The Programma 101, which started all of this, couldn't be made to perform text processing like this in any way, so by this single question, it definitely isn't a computer. > > > > I am also considering just the base device itself, without add on > > peripherals in cases where such were available. > > > > * Primarily has input, and is operated through, a keyboard that > > has a numeric keypad (0-9), and discrete function keys for mathematical > > & programming operations. Lacks an alphanumeric keyboard. > > One definition I'ev heard is the 'key per function' one. A calculator has > a 'SIN' key, on a computer you type it out as 3 letters. Alas this makes > the Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum a 'calculator'.... Which is why I didn't say "key per function" in the definition. This would confuse things, as many calculators from the timeframe had multiple functions per key, through use of "shift" keys that would provide alternate functions per key. The Sinclair machines have an alphanumeric keyboard despite its use of "key per function" keys, so by my definition, it fits as a computer. > > > * Don't have the ability to perform Boolean logic operations > > (bitwise AND, OR, NOT and derivatives) as built-in functions. > > So the HP16C is not a calculator :-) The HP 16C doesn't fit within the timeframe that I mentioned :-) > > * No interrupt handling architecture. I/O is typically polled or > > handled by pausing execution until an I/O is completed. > > The HP9810/20/30 have an interrupt line. It's tested by the CPU microocde > at the start of every machine instruction. > The HP 9800-series break some of the rules. There are always exceptions anytime you try to make a generalized set of rules. These are my basic guidelines for defining the differences between/computer and calculator during the time frame mentioned. The interrupt capability of the 9800's wasn't presented to the user in any way, if I recall correctly. It was more a means for the microcode to keep track of asynchronous I/O events and manage it all to make it transparent to the user. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I certainly could be. I can't remember deep enough into the 9830's BASIC to know if it had some means of handling interrupts using something like "TRAP" or "ON " type of statements. Certainly the 9810/9820/9805 didn't present any of the interrupt architecture to the user. > > * The HP 9100A/B and 9810/9820/9821 match most of these, though > > self-modifying code was possible on the 9100's, although rather tedious > > to do. These machines could be significantly increased in capabilities > > with add-ons, but again, I'm only considering the base unit and not > > add-ons. > > I would argue that the fact a machine cna be expanded, particularly if > new funcitons can be addded (e.g. by add-on ROMs), rahter htan just > connecting it to a printer, say, then the machine is more like a computer > than a calcualtor. > Again, I was making these definitions with no add-ons, just the base machine with no add-ons or options. The rules definitely break down when add-on ROM functionality, and things like certain types of peripherals (disk drives, printers and plotters, teletypes and I/O typewriters, parallel and RS-232 interfaces, custom I/O interfacing capability (e.g., the 705 "Multiface" add-on for the Wang 700-series computers), expanded memory and others) make the machines much more like computers than programmable calculators. As above, the 9800-series(excepting the 9830 which I consider a computer) definitely breaks some of my definitions, but then, they were truly exceptional machines, as was HP's way in those days. They certainly were computers inside, but the interface they provided to the user was more programmable calculator than computer - in BASE form. Add stuff on to the 9820, and it became much more computer-like. The Wang 700/500/600-series machines also get foggy by my rules when add-ons are put on them, but in base form, they are definitely programmable calculators. Ditto with some of the Computer Design Corporation machines, as well as later machines by Olivetti. -Rick From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 8 21:01:12 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:01:12 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > It adds, "declassified by the militray and made inoperable with memory or > hard drive disk". > It adds, "They were dcommissioned by the strtegic are [sic] command and > the hard drive and memory banks were erased." First off, there were no "memory banks" on this machine (e.g., it didn't have any form of non-volatile memory such as magnetic core) other than the disk. The entirety of its storage, working registers (with exception of some flip-flop-based registers which would lose their content when the machine was powered off anyway) was on the disk. Erasing the disk (without destroying the timing tracks) would "remove" the military's code/data. (I put remove in quotes due to discussion below). The real question is, did the military actually put a program on the machine that would securely erase the data without chance for recovery as part of the de-mil process? As we know, simply writing 0's or 1's all over a disk doesn't necessarily make the data that was there before unrecoverable. It takes some pretty sophisticated code to really erase a drive and still leave it usable afterwards using software only. I doubt that back in those days they went to the level required to actually make the data unrecoverable by someone with forensics technologies of today. If one of the disk drives in pristine form were found, and it had been "erased" by the military back in the day, it would be my guess that it might be possible to recover some or perhaps all of the content of the disk prior to its erasure using forensics technologies. That'd certainly be interesting, for sure...and might get someone in trouble if they actually succeeded in recovering the code. Even today, it's my guess that the targeting calculations are something that the government would rather still be kept secret. My guess that any machine that ended up in a school environment would have had enough cycles of different data on the disk that it would be unlikely that anything could be recovered. I suppose that it is possible that the military created a device that would hook up to the drive and would effectively erase the register and code tracks through hardware (rather than writing code to do it). That might make the recovery of the data less likely. It's all supposition, because certainly the military would not have had any interest in releasing the means by which the machine were de-militarized. In order for the machines to be usable once they were released for donation to schools, the disk couldn't be bulk erased, or the timing tracks would have been erased, rendering the machine unusable. So, either the military just loaded up a program to erase as much of the disk as possible (by writing junk to the disk, eventually destroying the erasing program itself), or through some external hardware that performed the erasure, or maybe they simply didn't bother (probably unlikely). Tough to say at this point in time, unless someone out there actually has experience dumping out the disk of the machine when they were first received in the schools. It took quite a bit of work to get these machines to be usable in a practical way -- there were some articles written about how to interface these things to various peripherals to make them functional as a general purpose computer. In their original application, they really only connected to sensors and actuators when installed in the Minuteman I missile. There was an umbilical that a console device of some kind (as well as I/O typewriter and paper tape reader/punch) could be plugged into that would allow programs to be loaded, modified, and the machine tested out, but I don't know if the external devices that connected to this I/O umbilical were included with the computer when they were donated to schools. A report from the Minuteman Computer User group indicates that some folks at Tulane university had one of the machines that they had built a number of I/O interfaces for including a Friden Flexowriter, paper tape reader/punch, and some sort of "control console". That might indicated that the military only provided the computer, and none of the support stuff that they used for loading code onto them, as well as performing testing, etc. There were over 1000 of these computers made, and it's unclear how many of them ended up in universities. It's doubtful that all of them ended up in the education system. The question is, what happened to the rest of the machines that didn't make it into the education system? Were they destroyed (e.g., bashed to bits by soldiers with sledgehammers, run over by heavy equipment)? Maybe some of them "went home" with military folks to play with? Were these machine de-militarized? Hard to say. Needless to say, it'd sure be interesting to find out if the machine for sale on eBay actually has the drive intact. It'd be really interesting to see what's on it. It'd take a bit of engineering to build circuitry to pull the data off of the drive, but not unreasonable to do. Some read amplifiers with proper thresholds to detect 0 and 1, some head selection logic, and a pretty basic microcontroller could certainly extract the raw data. I just hope that what is left of this machine (not much since it appears to be pretty much gutted other than the disk) ends up in the hands of someone who will know how to handle it properly, and go about seeing if the disk can be refurbished and made to run again. Rick Bensene From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 8 21:05:31 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:05:31 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: While doing some more searching on the Minuteman I (Autonetics D-17B) computer, I found this publication: http://books.google.com/books/about/Input_Output_Interfaces_for_the_D17B _Bus.html?id=M2r_NwAACAAJ] It'd be interesting to find this publication, though some quick searching around doesn't seem to be able to find any copies available for purchase anywhere. Rick Bensene From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 8 21:22:17 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 19:22:17 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F597769.7020505@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/12 7:05 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > While doing some more searching on the Minuteman I (Autonetics D-17B) > computer, I found this publication: > http://books.google.com/books/about/Input_Output_Interfaces_for_the_D17B > _Bus.html?id=M2r_NwAACAAJ] > It is an NTIS publication. From memory, it was part of the documents done at Wright-Patterson. I think I have it on fiche. There isn't a great deal more out there on these machines than is already on bitsavers. The list of users in the Users Group reports lists pretty much every institution that was able to get one. From evan at snarc.net Thu Mar 8 21:33:54 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:33:54 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: <4F597769.7020505@bitsavers.org> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> <4F597769.7020505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F597A22.6040107@snarc.net> > On 3/8/12 7:05 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> While doing some more searching on the Minuteman I (Autonetics D-17B) >> computer, I found this publication: >> http://books.google.com/books/about/Input_Output_Interfaces_for_the_D17B >> _Bus.html?id=M2r_NwAACAAJ] >> > > It is an NTIS publication. From memory, it was part of the documents done > at Wright-Patterson. I think I have it on fiche. There isn't a great deal > more out there on these machines than is already on bitsavers. The > list of > users in the Users Group reports lists pretty much every institution that > was able to get one. Looks like the original is at Fort Belvoir, Va.: http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0785128 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 8 21:43:26 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 19:43:26 -0800 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F597C5E.1050507@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Closed file formats are indeed evil; only the clueless would > disagree with that. Anyone making money with products using closed file formats would probably disagree. Are they all clueless? I don't think so. They're making a lot more money than I am, so they must have a clue about something. That doesn't mean that I like or admire them, just that dismissing them as clueless is unwarranted. Certainly from an end user's point of view, there is little or nothing to recommend closed file formats, and it is in the interest of end users to avoid them like the plague. > But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy disks which > have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact purpose of > the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! Yes. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 21:46:36 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 19:46:36 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F597D1C.7080709@gmail.com> I can't remember where but, I read a web page of someone once who worked for a scrapper that got one or more whole minuteman I missiles at auction and ripped them apart for scrap. Everything but, the warhead. I seem to remember they were not from the US government but, from the company that assembled and tested them. I wouldn't be surprised if this bit didn't come from that sort of thing. One from a school would probably be more complete and not have the bottom divider shield portion. Maybe someone here that has seen one in real life knows. Seems an odd piece to leave attached when it was used as just a computer. On 3/8/2012 7:01 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > The question is, what happened to the rest of the machines that didn't > make it into the education system? Were they destroyed (e.g., bashed > to bits by soldiers with sledgehammers, run over by heavy equipment)? > Maybe some of them "went home" with military folks to play with? Were > these machine de-militarized? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 21:52:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:52:30 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F597C5E.1050507@brouhaha.com> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> <4F597C5E.1050507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F597E7E.2010307@neurotica.com> On 03/08/2012 10:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Closed file formats are indeed evil; only the clueless would disagree >> with that. > > Anyone making money with products using closed file formats would > probably disagree. Are they all clueless? I don't think so. They're > making a lot more money than I am, so they must have a clue about > something. That doesn't mean that I like or admire them, just that > dismissing them as clueless is unwarranted. Ok, there's the exception of people peddling such things to the users. They're (possibly) not clueless...but they're certainly sleazy. > Certainly from an end user's point of view, there is little or nothing > to recommend closed file formats, and it is in the interest of end users > to avoid them like the plague. Yup. And since the vast majority of them are clueless, the sleazy people who peddle products based on closed file formats end up with a very nice (for them) situation of vendor lock-in, where your data is very literally held hostage for a ransom. Not with MY money, thankyouverymuch! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From evan at snarc.net Thu Mar 8 21:55:43 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:55:43 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: <4F597D1C.7080709@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> <4F597D1C.7080709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F597F3F.4030701@snarc.net> > I wouldn't be surprised if this bit didn't come from that sort of thing. What is the ebay item #? From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 22:15:31 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:15:31 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders AND FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER!! In-Reply-To: <4F597F3F.4030701@snarc.net> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org> <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <20120307150802.U45724@shell.lmi.net> <1879264D-6FE3-4313-B6C7-D7C6248828C9@gmail.com> <20120308153709.J85628@shell.lmi.net> <4F597D1C.7080709@gmail.com> <4F597F3F.4030701@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F5983E3.6010608@gmail.com> There have been so many. The latest looks to be 220971217606 but, the original was 220965768120 which will remain even if ebay pulls the others. On 3/8/2012 7:55 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I wouldn't be surprised if this bit didn't come from that sort of thing. > > What is the ebay item #? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 8 22:17:25 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:17:25 -0800 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F597E7E.2010307@neurotica.com> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> <4F597C5E.1050507@brouhaha.com> <4F597E7E.2010307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F598455.2000305@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Certainly from an end user's point of view, there is little or nothing > to recommend closed file formats, and it is in the interest of end users > to avoid them like the plague. Dave McGuire wrote: > Yup. And since the vast majority of them are clueless, the sleazy > people who peddle products based on closed file formats end up with a > very nice (for them) situation of vendor lock-in, where your data is > very literally held hostage for a ransom. > > Not with MY money, thankyouverymuch! Hmmm, that's some nice data you've got there. You wouldn't want anything to *happen* to it, would you? You'd better keep it in our proprietary file format for safety! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 8 22:34:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 23:34:00 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F598455.2000305@brouhaha.com> References: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> <4F597C5E.1050507@brouhaha.com> <4F597E7E.2010307@neurotica.com> <4F598455.2000305@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F598838.2070501@neurotica.com> On 03/08/2012 11:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: >> Certainly from an end user's point of view, there is little or nothing >> to recommend closed file formats, and it is in the interest of end users >> to avoid them like the plague. > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Yup. And since the vast majority of them are clueless, the sleazy >> people who peddle products based on closed file formats end up with a >> very nice (for them) situation of vendor lock-in, where your data is >> very literally held hostage for a ransom. >> >> Not with MY money, thankyouverymuch! > > Hmmm, that's some nice data you've got there. You wouldn't want anything > to *happen* to it, would you? You'd better keep it in our proprietary > file format for safety! Exactly. We do a bunch of stuff like that, things that make no sense whatsoever. The one that dawned on me not long ago was the realization that, every pay period, nearly all of us willingly hand over our paychecks to what is well known to be the least-trustworthy segment of society for "safekeeping". I'd sooner trust it to the crack dealer on the corner. At least his ilk is sometimes honest about being a criminal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From alkopop79 at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 16:44:48 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 22:44:48 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know they're cheap but at the moment I have exactly 96 pence available:D On 8 March 2012 20:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised that this > > schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it > > I haev not looekd at these schematics, but the 4049 is a hex inverting > buffer, the 4050 is a hex non-inverting buffer. Unless 2 sections of them > are always cascaded, it's hard to see how replacing one with the other > won't make a difference. > > > works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't under my > > overdraft... > > Ouch, things must be bad. Last time I looked, 4049s/4050s were under a > pound each... > > -tony > From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Mar 9 03:03:10 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 10:03:10 +0100 Subject: SPS licence (was: Re:Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F59C74E.6030402@kryoflux.com> > Christian, if there's no anti-compete clause in the license, then please > explain what exactly clauses 3.a.v and particularly 3.a.vi do. > Also, for third party/open-source IPF stuff (other than the potential > for GPL software to be used commercially, already expressly forbidden by > 3.a.v), clauses 3.d.i and 3.d.ii would also seem to expressly forbid it? > 3.d.ii seems to imply that it violates the license to even convert an > IPF to other formats, which makes IPF images entirely useless as a > general preservation format because of the legal minefield they're stuck in. Jonathan, I think you misunderstood what this is about. Before I go into detail here, it does make sense to see how "the technology" is defined: "The program's object code, source code and documentation are collectively referred to as the "Technology"". Please note that there is no reference to the file format itself. It just clearly states one thing: You can not take a piece of our software and use it to make another piece of software, except for the exclusions listed. It does not say you can not invent something on our own or work with a CatFerret or DiskWeasel or whatever device comes to mind. It is also correct that you could not take the capsimg.dll and put it into a competing product. You can of course write your own code, or you could - if it's not a commercial thing - just take a look at our source distribution. It comes with a different (adapted MAME) licence! Please take a look yourself: http://www.kryoflux.com/download/ipfdec_source4.2.zip This was released to make sure the format is a) fully documented, b) portable and c) data is not buried. The reasons for the tight restrictions of the original (old) licence were e.g. some companies selling game compilation CDs of questionable origin, which usually did not give credit or pay royalties to the legitimate copyright holders (=game devs). We did not want to support such things. Not being able to use IPF for these (or extract the data with our enabler) meant ADFs were used, which usually sported cracker intros or similar, making people aware of what they had bought. > This is one of the most deceptive licenses I've ever read; the top > preamble implies it gives the user great freedom but instead it almost > totally locks everything they've done and can do down to "a SPS product > defined by SPS". I'm going to stay far, far away from any products > Kryoflux LTD./SPS puts out unless you seriously rethink your licensing, > since by contributing to the Discferret project I'm apparently already > in violation of it. No, you are not (I think). Unless you take parts of our product to enhance a competitive product, all is fine. In other (unpleasant) words: If you make your own and don't steal, I don't see any problem there. > No wonder none of the organizations you sold your CTA analyzer to want > anything to do with Phil's product, the license expressly forbids them > from even considering it. Absolutely not. If they were using this very same licence (which they don't, as it excludes commercial use) they could of course use other products. They just could not put parts of our product into the other. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 9 03:12:44 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 01:12:44 -0800 Subject: Wanted: TRS-80 8-Megabyte drive Message-ID: <4F59C98C.2050701@brouhaha.com> I have a TRS-80 Model 16 with an 8 Megabyte drive, but unfortunately the drive is a secondary, not a primary, so it doesn't contain a controller and I can't actually use it with the Model 16 at the moment. Does anyone have an extra 8MB primary drive they'd care to part with? Or the controller board from inside an 8MB primary drive? (Or, for that matter, another secondary?) The Model 16 (or Model II) with the original hard disk interface[*] will ONLY work with 8MB drives, and not with the later 5, 12, 35, or 70 MB drives. Similarly, the 8MB drives will only work on the Model II or 16 with that original interface, and not on the Model I, III, 4, etc. The pinout and signals of the cable between the interface card in the computer and the controller in the primary drive is different than all of the later ones. Both the old and new TRS-80 hard drive interfaces use a 50-pin cable with signals similar to those used by a WD1000 controller, but neither are actually directly compatible with the WD1000 or each other. Radio Shack added some functionality beyond what the standard WD1000 has, and changed the pinout. Thanks, Eric [*] The original Model II/16 hard disk interface can be recognized by the red power distribution strips under the DIP ICs. From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Mar 9 03:20:13 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 10:20:13 +0100 Subject: SPS licence (was: Re: Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F59CB4D.3040208@kryoflux.com> >> > You can't make 'competing products'. > ...no, you can't use "the Technology" to make competing products. > jgevaryahu didn't post enough for me to be sure what "the Technology" > means - and I would check if I cared - but I would expect it to refer > to KryoFlux's work and nothing more, in which case this strikes me as > eminently reasonable. > > In the stuff jgevaryahu posted, most the restrictions cited are of this > nature. I do see one glaring exception, that being 3.d(ii); if I were > doing data preservation any such clause in the license for a tool would > completely eliminate that tool from consideration for me. No, because the moment you would be able to put data into an IPF, you would also have the tool to extract it again, you would not use parts of the free distribution to do that. And you would of course have your original data in the first place. As outlined in another reply this mainly addresses companies releasing bogus compilation CDs which we did not intend to support. And apart from that: Our source distribution comes with a different (adapted MAME) licence! http://www.kryoflux.com/download/ipfdec_source4.2.zip This was released to make sure the format is a) fully documented, b) portable and c) data is not buried. > It most certainly would cause me to include them out of anything I > might do as an individual. Closed file formats - and this is an even > more egregious form of "closed" than most - are nonstarters for me. And for this reason, and many others, there source is out there. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 9 03:40:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 04:40:37 -0500 Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: <4F59CB4D.3040208@kryoflux.com> References: <4F59CB4D.3040208@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4F59D015.6070003@neurotica.com> On 03/09/2012 04:20 AM, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > http://www.kryoflux.com/download/ipfdec_source4.2.zip > > This was released to make sure the format is a) fully documented, b) > portable and c) data is not buried. > >> It most certainly would cause me to include them out of anything I >> might do as an individual. Closed file formats - and this is an even >> more egregious form of "closed" than most - are nonstarters for me. > > And for this reason, and many others, there source is out there. So you're making the claim that the file formats are fully open, fully documented, and anyone can extract the data at any time, regardless of the status of KryoFlux Ltd? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 9 03:54:36 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:54:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, DC wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=220965768120 "Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to legal restrictions in some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to prevent restricted items from being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users from accessing items that are not within the scope of said restrictions because of limitations of existing technology. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause, and we hope you may find other items of interest on eBay." So please either don't post non-working links (it's an *international* mailing list!), or make the contents available in some fashion. Christian From d235j.1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 07:38:41 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:38:41 -0500 Subject: SPS licence (was: Re:Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: <4F59C74E.6030402@kryoflux.com> References: <4F59C74E.6030402@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <-487010564162249936@unknownmsgid> No, the problem is the redefinition of Derivative Works to include any images produced by the device using the KF binary software distribution. Since the binary blob falls under this license, this means all IPFs (and STREAM dumps too) that were dumped with the KF. You could say that the license "taints" the IPFs or STREAM dumps. Personal editions of software like MS Word has similar clauses regarding commercially produced works, which means a court in the USA would possibly uphold it. Even though it basically forces vendor lock-in and makes it illegal to use any tool other than the vendor-provided ones to convert the files. So in the end, though the free implementation of IPF in itself is legal, converting an IPF dumped with the proprietary distribution (pretty much ANY IPF) is not, because of this redefinition and these clauses. I hope this clears things up. These clauses are probably unenforceable in many jurisdictions. The license also states it doesn't apply to commercial or institutional users of the software. Who knows what applies to these people. If all you wanted to do is prevent compilation CDs of IPFs, prohibiting the IPF library from being redistributed should have been enough. Such a prohibition is in the licenses. I don't see why such a redefinition of derivative works, and restriction on what you can do with these "derivative works", was ever necessary. Again, who knows what's in the commercial and/or institutional license. --Dave Sent from my iPhone On Mar 9, 2012, at 4:07 AM, "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." wrote: > >> Christian, if there's no anti-compete clause in the license, then please >> explain what exactly clauses 3.a.v and particularly 3.a.vi do. >> Also, for third party/open-source IPF stuff (other than the potential >> for GPL software to be used commercially, already expressly forbidden by >> 3.a.v), clauses 3.d.i and 3.d.ii would also seem to expressly forbid it? >> 3.d.ii seems to imply that it violates the license to even convert an >> IPF to other formats, which makes IPF images entirely useless as a >> general preservation format because of the legal minefield they're stuck in. > Jonathan, I think you misunderstood what this is about. Before I go into detail here, it does make sense to see how "the technology" is defined: "The program's object code, source code and documentation are collectively referred to as the "Technology"". Please note that there is no reference to the file format itself. > > It just clearly states one thing: You can not take a piece of our software and use it to make another piece of software, except for the exclusions listed. It does not say you can not invent something on our own or work with a CatFerret or DiskWeasel or whatever device comes to mind. It is also correct that you could not take the capsimg.dll and put it into a competing product. You can of course write your own code, or you could - if it's not a commercial thing - just take a look at our source distribution. It comes with a different (adapted MAME) licence! > > Please take a look yourself: > > http://www.kryoflux.com/download/ipfdec_source4.2.zip > > > This was released to make sure the format is a) fully documented, b) portable and c) data is not buried. > > The reasons for the tight restrictions of the original (old) licence were e.g. some companies selling game compilation CDs of questionable origin, which usually did not give credit or pay royalties to the legitimate copyright holders (=game devs). We did not want to support such things. Not being able to use IPF for these (or extract the data with our enabler) meant ADFs were used, which usually sported cracker intros or similar, making people aware of what they had bought. > > >> This is one of the most deceptive licenses I've ever read; the top >> preamble implies it gives the user great freedom but instead it almost >> totally locks everything they've done and can do down to "a SPS product >> defined by SPS". I'm going to stay far, far away from any products >> Kryoflux LTD./SPS puts out unless you seriously rethink your licensing, >> since by contributing to the Discferret project I'm apparently already >> in violation of it. > No, you are not (I think). Unless you take parts of our product to enhance a competitive product, all is fine. In other (unpleasant) words: If you make your own and don't steal, I don't see any problem there. > > >> No wonder none of the organizations you sold your CTA analyzer to want >> anything to do with Phil's product, the license expressly forbids them >> from even considering it. > > Absolutely not. If they were using this very same licence (which they don't, as it excludes commercial use) they could of course use other products. They just could not put parts of our product into the other. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 11:30:00 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 09:30:00 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F5A3E18.9060308@gmail.com> Sorry but, we have absolutely no way to tell. I am afraid you are just going to have to move somewhere else or learn to deal with it from time to time. On 3/9/2012 1:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > > So please either don't post non-working links (it's an *international* > mailing list!), or make the contents available in some fashion. > > Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 11:39:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:39:59 -0500 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F5A3E18.9060308@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> <4F5A3E18.9060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05D91673-E535-4E3C-8D5B-734E08A35F5A@gmail.com> On Mar 9, 2012, at 12:30 PM, DC wrote: > On 3/9/2012 1:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> >> >> So please either don't post non-working links (it's an *international* mailing list!), or make the contents available in some fashion. > Sorry but, we have absolutely no way to tell. I am afraid you are just going to have to move somewhere else or learn to deal with it from time to time. Seconded. There's no indication that it might not be available to foreign readers until they chime in and say, "Hey, this doesn't work." Short of checking through an international proxy every time (which doesn't seem that reasonable, and you can always view it through one if you wanted), it's all a guessing game. I'd stop well short of suggesting you move somewhere else, though. - Dave From brain at jbrain.com Fri Mar 9 11:47:27 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 11:47:27 -0600 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F5A422F.60400@jbrain.com> On 3/9/2012 3:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, DC wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=220965768120 >> > > "Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to > legal restrictions in some countries. We are blocking your viewing in > an effort to prevent restricted items from being displayed. > Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users from accessing items > that are not within the scope of said restrictions because of > limitations of existing technology. Please accept our apologies for > any inconvenience this may cause, and we hope you may find other items > of interest on eBay." > > So please either don't post non-working links (it's an *international* > mailing list!), or make the contents available in some fashion. > > Christian I think that's asking too much. How are link posters supposed to know (or even test) that a link might not work in a specific country, with a specific browser, or on a specific OS? -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 9 12:12:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 11:12:43 -0700 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, <4F57DCE4.60902@gmail.com> <4F577553.26722.132C236@cclist.sydex.com> <003e01ccfcba$2d99ea00$88cdbe00$@ntlworld.com> <4F58EECF.4090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > So please either don't post non-working links (it's an *international* > mailing list!), or make the contents available in some fashion. Oh please. There's no way for people inside their own jurisdiction to know that links aren't going to work in someone else's jurisduction. Just deal with it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Fri Mar 9 12:52:20 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 10:52:20 -0800 Subject: SPS licence (redefinition) In-Reply-To: <-487010564162249936@unknownmsgid> References: <4F59C74E.6030402@kryoflux.com> <-487010564162249936@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4F5A5164.5040905@jwsss.com> They have already reacted to use of their products in ways they didn't like by changing the licensing. If they choose to they could do so in the future. What if one wanted to do something as simple as have a tool that incorporates something derivative in the future to stream their formattted images to a Discferret, or some future product they wish to react to? Using the streams to either run an interpreter, or stream out to media in the future would certainly be a valid use, and if they didn't like it, they already have demonstrated they are willing to change their licensing in reaction to it. IANAL, but the Mame license is not going to give me comfort that if I wanted to grab someones archive of images, throw together a suite of tools that I would not have to visit a bunch of licensing verbiage, and have some understanding of law to be sure noone sent me a cease and desist order down the line. People with archives of works from ancient companies already have enough jackals chasing them of that sort, and don't need this. As far as MS, the same sort of black cloud hangs over all works that use something as simple as FAT. again IANAL, but any format that has so much to interpret and do so correctly in licenses isn't a format one would want to use to archive their works. The fact that all this discussion is taking place makes this loosing proposition. They are free to make a product with any restrictions or licenses they wish, but the first thing I'd write if I were to own a KF, would be to take the archive format to something not related to that product for archival. The point that David below brings up does make even that an iffy proposition. On 3/9/2012 5:38 AM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > No, the problem is the redefinition of Derivative Works to include any > images produced by the device using the KF binary software > distribution. Since the binary blob falls under this license, this > means all IPFs (and STREAM dumps too) that were dumped with the KF. > > You could say that the license "taints" the IPFs or STREAM dumps. > Personal editions of software like MS Word has similar clauses > regarding commercially produced works, which means a court in the USA > would possibly uphold it. Even though it basically forces vendor > lock-in and makes it illegal to use any tool other than the > vendor-provided ones to convert the files. > > So in the end, though the free implementation of IPF in itself is > legal, converting an IPF dumped with the proprietary distribution > (pretty much ANY IPF) is not, because of this redefinition and these > clauses. > > I hope this clears things up. > > These clauses are probably unenforceable in many jurisdictions. > > The license also states it doesn't apply to commercial or > institutional users of the software. Who knows what applies to these > people. > > If all you wanted to do is prevent compilation CDs of IPFs, > prohibiting the IPF library from being redistributed should have been > enough. Such a prohibition is in the licenses. I don't see why such a > redefinition of derivative works, and restriction on what you can do > with these "derivative works", was ever necessary. > > Again, who knows what's in the commercial and/or institutional license. > > --Dave > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 9, 2012, at 4:07 AM, "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." > wrote: > >>> Christian, if there's no anti-compete clause in the license, then please >>> explain what exactly clauses 3.a.v and particularly 3.a.vi do. >>> Also, for third party/open-source IPF stuff (other than the potential >>> for GPL software to be used commercially, already expressly forbidden by >>> 3.a.v), clauses 3.d.i and 3.d.ii would also seem to expressly forbid it? >>> 3.d.ii seems to imply that it violates the license to even convert an >>> IPF to other formats, which makes IPF images entirely useless as a >>> general preservation format because of the legal minefield they're stuck in. >> Jonathan, I think you misunderstood what this is about. Before I go into detail here, it does make sense to see how "the technology" is defined: "The program's object code, source code and documentation are collectively referred to as the "Technology"". Please note that there is no reference to the file format itself. >> >> It just clearly states one thing: You can not take a piece of our software and use it to make another piece of software, except for the exclusions listed. It does not say you can not invent something on our own or work with a CatFerret or DiskWeasel or whatever device comes to mind. It is also correct that you could not take the capsimg.dll and put it into a competing product. You can of course write your own code, or you could - if it's not a commercial thing - just take a look at our source distribution. It comes with a different (adapted MAME) licence! >> >> Please take a look yourself: >> >> http://www.kryoflux.com/download/ipfdec_source4.2.zip >> >> >> This was released to make sure the format is a) fully documented, b) portable and c) data is not buried. >> >> The reasons for the tight restrictions of the original (old) licence were e.g. some companies selling game compilation CDs of questionable origin, which usually did not give credit or pay royalties to the legitimate copyright holders (=game devs). We did not want to support such things. Not being able to use IPF for these (or extract the data with our enabler) meant ADFs were used, which usually sported cracker intros or similar, making people aware of what they had bought. >> >> >>> This is one of the most deceptive licenses I've ever read; the top >>> preamble implies it gives the user great freedom but instead it almost >>> totally locks everything they've done and can do down to "a SPS product >>> defined by SPS". I'm going to stay far, far away from any products >>> Kryoflux LTD./SPS puts out unless you seriously rethink your licensing, >>> since by contributing to the Discferret project I'm apparently already >>> in violation of it. >> No, you are not (I think). Unless you take parts of our product to enhance a competitive product, all is fine. In other (unpleasant) words: If you make your own and don't steal, I don't see any problem there. >> >> >>> No wonder none of the organizations you sold your CTA analyzer to want >>> anything to do with Phil's product, the license expressly forbids them >>> from even considering it. >> Absolutely not. If they were using this very same licence (which they don't, as it excludes commercial use) they could of course use other products. They just could not put parts of our product into the other. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 9 12:58:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 10:58:15 -0800 Subject: Put on the hip waders In-Reply-To: <4F5A3E18.9060308@gmail.com> References: <4F57D8F3.2050702@bitsavers.org>, , <4F5A3E18.9060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F59E247.14748.9CA39C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Mar 2012 at 9:30, DC wrote: > Sorry but, we have absolutely no way to tell. I am afraid you are > just going to have to move somewhere else or learn to deal with it > from time to time. I feel the same sense of frustration when someone posts a link to, say, a BBC television chip and I'm informed that, as a non-UK person, I'm not allowed to watch it. It's the way things work. Either find a proxy or get used to it. The original poster has no idea that some countries are blacked out. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 13:54:53 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 13:54:53 -0600 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F57A45B.3050208@vaxen.net> References: <4F573B7B.9000004@kryoflux.com> <4F57A45B.3050208@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4F5A600D.6020009@gmail.com> On 03/07/2012 12:09 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Christian, the basic import of all your posts boil down to this: > > "Don't hate Kryoflux because it's closed source. It doesn't matter! REALLY!" > > And the overwhelming response from this community is that it does, and we do. Perhaps a little harshly put, I think... I don't hate it, and I've used plenty of closed-source things over the years because they do a job well - but when faced with an alternative that does the equivalent task and is open-source and free of acres of legalese, it really is a no-brainer. Neither product is any more or less likely to stand the test of time - that's just the way the world works - but at least with the more open one I feel I have a better chance of migrating to whatever the current best tool for the job is, should I need to. cheers Jules From alkopop79 at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 07:29:07 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:29:07 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Brent, I checked the 1802 (both of them) and they seem to work fine. When the CLEAR and WAIT pin are set high or low accordingly, TPA and TPB sends timing pulses (checked with the scope), the status pins SC1 and SC0 show the state of the processor (checked it against the truth table, works fine). I think they work fine. If you have any ideas how to test the 1802s further, let me know! Greg On 8 March 2012 08:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Mar 7, at 8:21 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised that this >> schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it >> works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't under my >> overdraft... >> > > Inverting or non-inverting: it depends on other aspects of the > implementation. > > Comparing with the schematic here: > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/**bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-35.htm > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/**bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-36.htm > (There is an error on page 36: IC5 at the RUN switch is labelled as 4050 > (non-inverting and correct) but shown as an inverter.) > > If you are following the original design strictly it looks like there > should be a 4049 and two 4050s. > > The implementation I happen to have uses three 4049s because: > - simple LEDs are used for the display and so required inverters, > - the display latch is inverted as it is a different latch type, > - replaced the RUN-switch single-element non-inverting debounce circuit > with a two-inverter circuit like the other debounce circuits. > > I mentioned my schematic because it shows things on one page and the > control flow is clearer, I hope the implementation differences aren't > confusing things too much. > > You mentioned checking a few things, but I don't think you actually told > use what the problem symptoms are. > Is the 1802 oscillator running? > One suggestion would be to check that the levels at the mode inputs of the > 1802 are correct for given switch settings. > > > > On 6 March 2012 00:55, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> Thanks for the schematics, amazing! >>> >>> On 5 March 2012 09:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>> On 2012 Mar 2, at 6:08 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>>> >>>> I wonder if anyone has experience with Cosmac Elf. I've been trying to >>>> >>>>> build one on breadboard but have troubles with the input section. >>>>> Please >>>>> let me know if you have built one! Thanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I was refurbishing a school-project implementation from the 70's (not >>>> mine originally) just last summer. >>>> >>>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/****e/cosmacElf/index.html >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> There's a re-organised version of the schematic there. >>>> >>>> I wasn't familiar with it in depth before this, although I remember it >>>> from the Pop Electronics article in the 70's. Kinda cute for its >>>> simplicity. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > From bdamer at digitalspace.com Fri Mar 9 12:40:11 2012 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:40:11 +0500 Subject: On Programa P101 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203091840.q29IeDET009951@smtp3.nayatel.com> In concurrence with Rick here, I was interviewed last year by some Italians making a documentary about the Olivetti P101 trying to shoehorn their claim it was the first "personal computer". I categorically stated that it was simply a programmable calculator and not a computer. I noted to them the features of the 1962 LINC (OS, languages, removable storage, interactive programming/display, peripherals) which was described by Alan Kay and Gordon Bell as "the first personal workstation" or "where the experience of personal computing was first possible". Seemed to fall on deaf ears. Did their documentary ever come out? bruce ever the CC lurker From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 9 14:15:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:15:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <201203090054.TAA12747@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 8, 12 07:54:59 pm Message-ID: > > > I haev read the license, and although IANAL, I was astounded by it. > > IMHO anyone who agrees to that needs their head examining!. > > I haven't read the whole thing, just snippets jgevaryahu posted here. > > But, based on those snippets (and assuming they're accurate, of > course), I think you're overstating the case. For example... > > > You can't make 'competing products'. > > ...no, you can't use "the Technology" to make competing products. > jgevaryahu didn't post enough for me to be sure what "the Technology" I interpretted 'The Technology' to include the file formats and their specifications. Perhaps that's incorrect. > means - and I would check if I cared - but I would expect it to refer > to KryoFlux's work and nothing more, in which case this strikes me as > eminently reasonable. > > In the stuff jgevaryahu posted, most the restrictions cited are of this > nature. I do see one glaring exception, that being 3.d(ii); if I were > doing data preservation any such clause in the license for a tool would > completely eliminate that tool from consideration for me. > > Actually, if I really cared, I'd look into the possibility that their > idea of what constitutes a derivative work disagrees with applicable > copyright law, which might end up leading to simply ignoring that > clause (I'm not sure whether a license gets to redefine > well-estbalished technical terms like "derivative work"). On the other > hand, the potential hassle factor of dealing with an infringement suit > also might lead me to drop the option even then. Well, given the choice between 2 options, one of the which (usign the DiskFerret) certainyl avoids any legal trouble and the other (using the Kryoflux) _may_ not, I think I'd pick the former. > > It most certainly would cause me to include them out of anything I > might do as an individual. Closed file formats - and this is an even > more egregious form of "closed" than most - are nonstarters for me. Absolutely. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 9 14:42:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:42:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SPS licence (was: Re:Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: <4F59C74E.6030402@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 9, 12 10:03:10 am Message-ID: > Jonathan, I think you misunderstood what this is about. Before I go into > detail here, it does make sense to see how "the technology" is defined: > "The program's object code, source code and documentation are > collectively referred to as the "Technology"". Please note that there is > no reference to the file format itself. I am sure a lawyer could have a field day with this. To me the description of the file format is part of the 'documetation' of the product, and by your definiton it is tharefore part of the 'technology'. In other words, I interrpet your license as meaning that I can't use the documetnation, including the description of any file formats, to make a competing product. In aprticualr I can't produce something that reads one of your inmage files and writes it back to a physical disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 9 14:18:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:18:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F595684.1050706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 8, 12 08:01:56 pm Message-ID: > Closed file formats are indeed evil; only the clueless would disagree > with that. But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy disks > which have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact purpose > of the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! No, I don't think they are. It's the difference between a genuinely difficult problem (reading an undocumented floppy disk) and one that's artificially difficulty (a file format that's 'closed' for legal reasons). In any case, I don't think this is a good jsutificatio nfor a closed image file format. The idea of preservation it ot make the data easier to read/interpret/archive, not to keep the problem at the same level. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 9 14:36:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:36:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, in 1962 In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 8, 12 06:07:29 pm Message-ID: > There were definitely calculators that weren't programmable, such as > many of the Computer Design Corporation (Compucorp with Monroe & Sumlock > among others, as OEM customer) calculators that didn't include the LEMP > (Learn Mode Programming) feature, of which there were quite a few, > definitely had a computer-like architecture, with their multi-chip > calculator logic chipset essentially being an early multi-chip > microprocessor, with ROM-based firmware. These machines were quite > ahead of their time. I beleive the Compucorp 322 was the first ever handheld programmable calculator, it beat the HP65 bya few weeks. Of course the latter was a much more capable mahcine (and I seem to remembner some of the HP advertising material for the 65 called it 'your personal computer' :-)). How much is known about the internals of the Compucorp machines? I've read the service manual on Katie Wasserman's site (I think that's where I saw it), but it doesn't have much detained information on the processor. I don't think there are even scheamtics of some of the boards, only those you could resonably repair, like the power converter. > > I don't disagree at all. The ability to print strings (as opposed to > the basic digit & limited symbol printers that print on adding machine > tape of most calculators, even some programmables like the Programma 101 > and those from Sharp, among others) in base form, as with the 9830, > pushes the machine more in the direction of computer. Add on the string How do you classiby the single-board evaluation sstems (like the intel SDKs)? Those often ahd just a he keybod with function keys and a numeric-only display. Are those computers? > variable ROM, and it's firmly a computer, as it can actually process > text.=20 > > A criteria that might fit is: Could you write a simple text editor or > word processor using the base programmable calculator? For the 9830 in > stock form, no. Add the string variable ROM, and the answer becomes Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, I believe the String Varioable ROM was avialkable as a factor-installed internal option board (most of the ROMs were). And thys you could order an HP9830 from HP with string variable apability. Is that a 'stock' 9830 :-) > yes. Perhaps by this question, the 9830 in base form is still a > programmable calculator, but I really have a problem with that and still > would say that the 9830 in base form is more computer than calculator, > despite HP's marketing, and the fact that it is a little fuzzy on some > of the rules. I cetianly regard the 9830 as a computer. In fact I think it is a strong contentor for the title of 'first personal comptuer' Let me add at this point that the fact we can't agree on an exact dividing line between 'programmable calcualtor' and 'computer' doesn't make the terms worthless. Nobody can agree o nthe precise wavelength where 'orange' becomes 'yellow' but that doesn't mean it's silly to say 'connect the orange wire to take 3 and the yellow wire to tag 15' Realisitcally, some, if not many, prograambble calculators are close to being computers, even if they don't meet the strict definitions. I don't think anyone is goign to object to a discussion of the HP9810, 9820 or 9830 here (even if you all them calculators, they are clearly things that run programs, they are clearly over 10 years old, they are clearly interesting machines to some of us here(). And I don;t think anyone would object if you gave a presenation o nthem at a vintage computer event. > > One definition I'ev heard is the 'key per function' one. A calculator > has > > a 'SIN' key, on a computer you type it out as 3 letters. Alas this > makes > > the Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum a 'calculator'.... > > Which is why I didn't say "key per function" in the definition. This > would confuse things, as many calculators from the timeframe had > multiple functions per key, through use of "shift" keys that would My point is not that there can only be one fucntion on a key, but that to get a particular function you press are key with that name on it (maybe after pressing a shift key). You don;t type the name out. Or to be somewhat silly about it, to enter the SIN or COS functions on a comptuer you press 3 keys in sequence. The first key of 'SIN' is the same as the last key of 'COS'. I don;t know of any claculator where that owuld be the case. > The interrupt capability of the 9800's wasn't presented to the user in > any way, if I recall correctly. It was more a means for the microcode Corret, AFAIK. I don;t think even the advanced I/O ROM for the 9830 allowed user trapping of iterrupts. It was strickly something that the firmware could do at the machine code level. Some periperals used interrupts (the cassette drive, the last of the RS232 intefaces, etc), but they ahd their own firmware to cotnrol them, it was not something the suser could do. > > I would argue that the fact a machine cna be expanded, particularly if > > new funcitons can be addded (e.g. by add-on ROMs), rahter htan just > > connecting it to a printer, say, then the machine is more like a > computer > > than a calcualtor. > > > Again, I was making these definitions with no add-ons, just the base > machine with no add-ons or options. The rules definitely break down > when add-on ROM functionality, and things like certain types of > peripherals (disk drives, printers and plotters, teletypes and I/O > typewriters, parallel and RS-232 interfaces, custom I/O interfacing > capability (e.g., the 705 "Multiface" add-on for the Wang 700-series > computers), expanded memory and others) make the machines much more like > computers than programmable calculators. IU find it strange that a machien can change form being a 'programmable calculaotr' into a 'computer' if you add exxtensiuons to it. > > As above, the 9800-series(excepting the 9830 which I consider a > computer) definitely breaks some of my definitions, but then, they were > truly exceptional machines, as was HP's way in those days. They They were indeed. I think they're one of the landmark products. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 9 16:02:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 17:02:25 -0500 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5A7DF1.6000406@neurotica.com> On 03/09/2012 03:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Closed file formats are indeed evil; only the clueless would disagree >> with that. But the important part of my point is: Aren't floppy disks >> which have no reasonable way of being read, which is the exact purpose >> of the product, the very epitome of a "closed file format"?! > > No, I don't think they are. It's the difference between a genuinely > difficult problem (reading an undocumented floppy disk) and one that's > artificially difficulty (a file format that's 'closed' for legal reasons). > > In any case, I don't think this is a good jsutificatio nfor a closed > image file format. The idea of preservation it ot make the data easier to > read/interpret/archive, not to keep the problem at the same level. That was not at all the point I was trying to make. It was late and I was tired; I guess I didn't word it very well. I was trying to suggest that replacing one "closed file format" (difficult-to-read floppies) with another is a really bad idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 9 17:48:18 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:48:18 -0800 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> I just powered up my unit and played with it for a moment to reacquaint myself. I'm still not clear what your unit is or is not doing. Starting from scratch though, a possible debugging sequence: - assuming the power supply is correct and clean, - you did put pull-up resistors on the 1802 inputs such as nDMAOUT and nINTR, didn't you? - confirm the clock frequency is not too high for the 1802 chip type being used (not a good idea to measure at pins 1/39 as it may affect F). Another possibility for debugging is to feed a low frequency clock to the chip or set up a single-step clock circuit. - check the Examine mode. The idea is each push of the INPUT switch should result in a presentation of the memory contents. Assuming the memory contents is somewhat random at this point, the display should present random values. Set the 3 mode switches for PROGRAM-EXAMINE. Confirm: 1802-3 / nCLEAR =0V 1802-2 / nWAIT =0V 2101-20 / RAM-R/W =5V 1802-21 / nEF4 =5V, goes to 0V with INPUT switch depressed Confirm the DMAIN cycle is working: 1802-31 / nDMAIN =5V, pulses to 0V with each push of INPUT switch (will be difficult to observe at high clock F) 2101-18 / nMREAD pulses to 0V with each push of INPUT switch display-latch pulses active (whichever is active for your display type) with each push of INPUT switch Observing the one time pulses may be difficult depending on what type of scope / test equipment you have, one option is to turn off auto- trigger on the scope and set the trigger slope and level to trigger on the desired pulse edge. I'm suggesting all this from just looking at the schematic and 1802 datasheet, errors are possible and sanity checks will be a good idea. On 2012 Mar 9, at 5:29 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > Brent, I checked the 1802 (both of them) and they seem to work > fine. When > the CLEAR and WAIT pin are set high or low accordingly, TPA and TPB > sends > timing pulses (checked with the scope), the status pins SC1 and SC0 > show > the state of the processor (checked it against the truth table, works > fine). I think they work fine. If you have any ideas how to test > the 1802s > further, let me know! > > Greg > > On 8 March 2012 08:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2012 Mar 7, at 8:21 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised >> that this >>> schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm >>> that it >>> works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't >>> under my >>> overdraft... >>> >> >> Inverting or non-inverting: it depends on other aspects of the >> implementation. >> >> Comparing with the schematic here: >> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/**bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-35.htm> incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-35.htm> >> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/**bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-36.htm> incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-36.htm> >> (There is an error on page 36: IC5 at the RUN switch is labelled >> as 4050 >> (non-inverting and correct) but shown as an inverter.) >> >> If you are following the original design strictly it looks like there >> should be a 4049 and two 4050s. >> >> The implementation I happen to have uses three 4049s because: >> - simple LEDs are used for the display and so required inverters, >> - the display latch is inverted as it is a different latch type, >> - replaced the RUN-switch single-element non-inverting debounce >> circuit >> with a two-inverter circuit like the other debounce circuits. >> >> I mentioned my schematic because it shows things on one page and the >> control flow is clearer, I hope the implementation differences aren't >> confusing things too much. >> >> You mentioned checking a few things, but I don't think you >> actually told >> use what the problem symptoms are. >> Is the 1802 oscillator running? >> One suggestion would be to check that the levels at the mode >> inputs of the >> 1802 are correct for given switch settings. >> From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 19:16:29 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:16:29 -0600 Subject: Discferret Broken? In-Reply-To: <4F5A7DF1.6000406@neurotica.com> References: <4F5A7DF1.6000406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5AAB6D.1030307@gmail.com> On 03/09/2012 04:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I was trying to suggest that replacing one "closed file format" > (difficult-to-read floppies) with another is a really bad idea. Well, it takes time and effort, but if the first format is at risk of becoming unreadable then there is some merit in doing it. What doesn't make sense to me is going from one closed format to another when I could go from a closed format to an open one (assuming that the open one meets my needs equally). What I'd really like to see in files for preservation - now that storage is cheap and plentiful - is the spec for the format itself embedded at the start of the file. If I'm faced with an unknown file format I usually poke around it with an editor for clues as to what it might be, so having the spec right there in plain English would be useful. (And we've had that discussion on the list before, and yes, it does rely on future generations being able to read English and ASCII being a sensible way of recording it) cheers Jules From dave12 at dunfield.com Sat Mar 10 06:28:08 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:28:08 -0500 Subject: Closed image formats (was: Discferret Broken?) In-Reply-To: <4F5A7DF1.6000406@neurotica.com> References: , <4F5A7DF1.6000406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5B48D8.17475.200B9D@dave12.dunfield.com> > The idea of preservation is to make the data easier > to read/interpret/archive, not to keep the problem at the same level. This is a very important point - if you are archiving disks for historical reasons, you have to realize that like the original systems, the tools you are using now will eventually become difficult if not impossible to use on future "modern" hardware. It then becomes critical to be able to recover the data by other means. Another big reason to use a documented format is that you may want/need to do other things with the data besides write it back to original format disks ... the original system may not be available or working. It may not have the means to transfer data other than by reading it's floppies. You may be trying to extract files from the disk, or run it under emulation. To do these things, you need to be able to access the data directly from the image file, and to fully understand how that data is organized. Also, don't assume it will be "the same level" - It may be "worse level" It may be easier to read data from the original documented-format disks than to reverse engineer the closed proprietary image file. This becomes a major issue when all you have left is the image file. This is why I specifically documented and placed the ImageDisk file format into the public domain. The ability to do this was one of my primary motivations in creating the program. Nobody owns the format, and nobody can ever restrict what you do with it. I strongly urge anyone who is creating other disk/data imaging systems to do the same. -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 10 11:13:30 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:13:30 +0100 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 12:54:49AM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Mar 4, at 11:37 PM, DC wrote: > > >ebay item 220965768120 > > Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, > I get this from ebay: > > Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked > due to legal restrictions in > some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to > prevent restricted items from > being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent > users from accessing items that > are not within the scope of said restrictions because of > limitations of existing technology. > Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may > cause, and we hope you may find > other items of interest on eBay. No problems looking at this from Switzerland. Looks like nobody is worried about the Swiss aquiring ICBM technology ;-) SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From us21090 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 10 13:20:59 2012 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 11:20:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Needs a good home. In-Reply-To: <1321750313.20698.YahooMailNeo@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1321750313.20698.YahooMailNeo@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1331407259.1274.YahooMailNeo@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, I still have some things I need to clear out.? I HATE to just throw these out. ----------------- I have a 10Mbs Canary 8-port 10base-T ethernet hub (not a switch) with BNC (thinnet 10base2) and AUI (to work with ethernet 10base5) connections with power adapter and bnc thinnet 50 ohm terminator. The last time I used it years ago, it worked, though it's been even longer since I used the BNC and AUI interfaces. Sorry I don't have any ethernet or thinnet coax or vampire taps. ---------------- Clearpoint SNXRAM 8MB memory board with sockets for up to 12MB. It is a 9U VME board (about 15"x16") with lots of MCM6256BP12 chips (256K x 1 bit).? Four MB is directed mounted and 4MB is socketed (last 4MB sockets are empty).? This also was pulled from a Sun 3/160 around 1995, if I remember the date correctly. C. 1986 ----------------- Sun 501-1208 4MB system card (9U VME, ~15"x16") pulled from a working Sun 3/160 about 1995 (yeah, yeah, if I remember the date correctly). It's a has Motorola MC68020 CPU and MC68881 floating point processor.?? Board has 4MB memory and ports for ethernet (AUI port), video (DB9), keyboard (DB15) and 2 serial ports (DB25). C. 1986 -------------- Please contact me off list. Thank you, Scott From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 10 15:22:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:22:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Closed image formats (was: Discferret Broken?) In-Reply-To: <4F5B48D8.17475.200B9D@dave12.dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Mar 10, 12 07:28:08 am Message-ID: > > The idea of preservation is to make the data easier > > to read/interpret/archive, not to keep the problem at the same level. > > This is a very important point - if you are archiving disks for > historical reasons, you have to realize that like the original systems, > the tools you are using now will eventually become difficult if not > impossible to use on future "modern" hardware. It then becomes > critical to be able to recover the data by other means. Agreed. > > Another big reason to use a documented format is that you may > want/need to do other things with the data besides write it back to > original format disks ... the original system may not be available > or working. It may not have the means to transfer data other than > by reading it's floppies. You may be trying to extract files from the > disk, or run it under emulation. To do these things, you need to be > able to access the data directly from the image file, and to fully > understand how that data is organized. In other words you never know what a future enthusiast or historian may wish (or need) to do with this data so you make it as easy as possible to do anything with it. > This is why I specifically documented and placed the ImageDisk > file format into the public domain. The ability to do this was one of FWIW, I wronte a simple set of programs to read, image, restore, etc the disks used by soem older HP calculators, HP41, HP71, etc). I defined a trivial image file format, which I documetned in the following way : liffile(5) LIF Utilities liffile(5) NAME liffile - HP9114 LIF disk image file DESCRIPTION The HP9114 LIF disk image file format was designed as a simple way to store HP9114 disk images on a larger com- puter, and to allow programs to be written to process those images (including writing them back to a physical disk). IMAGE FILE & LIF LOGICAL BLOCKS The file consists of a raw dump of the data blocks on the disk, in increasing numerical order. There are no headers or trailers added, either for the entire image or for each block. That is to say : Bytes 0 to 255 are LIF logical block 0 Bytes 256 to 511 are LIF logical block 1 Bytes 512 to 767 are LIF logical block 2 and so on As an HP9114 disk contains 2464 user blocks (organised as 77 cylinders, 2 heads, and 16 sectors per track, with each sector being 1 block), an image file is always 2464*256, or 630784, bytes long. LIF DISK PHYSICAL BLOCKS The correspondence between the logical block numbers described in the last section and the physical sector addresses on the disk is also straightforward. The cylin- ders on the disk are numbered from 0 to 76. the 2 heads (sides) are called 0 and 1, and the sectors on each track are numbered from 0 to 16. Then : Block 0 is cylinder 0, head 0, sector 1 Block 1 is cylinder 0, head 0, sector 2 Continuing on cylinder 0, head 0, until... Block 15 is cylinder 0, head 0, sector 16 Block 16 is cylinder 0, head 1, sector 1 Continuing on cylinder 0, head 1 until... Block 31 is cylinder 0, head 1, sector 16 Block 32 is cylinder 1, head 0, sector 1 LIF Utilities 16-March-2002 1 liffile(5) LIF Utilities liffile(5) And continuing in this manner for all 77 cylinders PSEUDO-CODE TO WRITE AN IMAGE TO DISK Assuming the necessary functions exist to seek the disk head to a particular cylinder ( seek() ) and to write a 256 byte sector ( writesector () ) ) then it is reasonably easy to write a program to trans- fer a disk image to a physical disk. The following pseudo-code gives the basic idea : declare blockbuffer to be 256 bytes long open(image file) for cylinder=0 to 76 seek(cylinder) for head = 0 to 1 for sector = 1 to 16 read next 256 bytes of image file into blockbuffer writesector(cylinder,head,sector,blockbuffer) next sector next head next cylinder close(image file) end REFERENCES The logical block structure of a LIF device is given in Appendix D of the HPIL Module for the HP71 Owner's Manual The relationship between LIF logical blocks and physical disk sectors was determined experimentally. RESTRICTIONS Although the LIF Utilities for linux are released under the GNU public license, the only restriction placed on the use of this image file format is that no (other) restric- tions may be placed on its use. Anybody is welcome to write programs using this file format (for example to con- vert the image files into other formats, or to transfer between physical disks and the image format) for any com- puter or operating system, and to distribute these pro- grams under any license terms they choose. LIF Utilities 16-March-2002 2 liffile(5) LIF Utilities liffile(5) AUTHOR The LIF image file format was designed by Tony Duell, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk LIF Utilities 16-March-2002 3 In case it's not clear, the term 'any license terms' includes closed-source. comemrcial software. All you can't do is prevent others writing simialr programs to handle such files. > my primary motivations in creating the program. Nobody owns the > format, and nobody can ever restrict what you do with it. I strongly > urge anyone who is creating other disk/data imaging systems to > do the same. As do I. -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Mar 11 00:41:51 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 06:41:51 -0000 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, In-Reply-To: <4A1666AB65AA4D74BBA260CEAB1E52E6@tegp4> References: <4A1666AB65AA4D74BBA260CEAB1E52E6@tegp4> Message-ID: Well my wife used to drive an Olivetti accounting machine circa 1975. I think it was a P503 or something like that. That had magnetic cards plus magnetic stripes (bits of recording tape) stuck to the account record cards. I'll ask her what she remembers. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Gardner Sent: 08 March 2012 19:23 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, Anyone have any more information on the magnetic card and its reader? Tom From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Mar 11 12:27:39 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 18:27:39 +0100 Subject: old == worthless. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120311172738.GB4675@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 03:09:20PM +0000, Rob wrote: > Bl@@dy ebay sellers... > > Sigh.. Anyway rant over. Wonder if I can justify leaving them a Neg... Oh yes, that deserves negative feedback: - they put it on ebay - you've won the auction - instead of fulfilling their side of the contract and shipping it to you, they threw it away (probably because they were too lazy to pack it after collecting just 99 pence for it) - sounds like breach of contract to me --> negative feedback Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From stevew at ka6s.com Sun Mar 11 12:35:06 2012 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steven Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 10:35:06 -0700 Subject: An interesting claim: Olivetti made the first ever PC, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5CE24A.6000908@ka6s.com> Well - I'm going to vote for Calculator - though I learned to program on one of these back in the early 70s. I wrote a couple of simulators for them to learn Fortran - and still remember a few details. 1) The machine had a total of 120 instructions if you used up the upper registers with instructions (so it WAS possible to carefully do self modifying code if you were so daring.) 2) When you used needed those registers - it would be 60 instructions. The machine was very useful as a training vehicle for preparation to run into things like the Altair with 256 bytes, etc. I look upon the P101 with a lot of fondness! Steve From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Mar 11 15:28:18 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 21:28:18 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays Message-ID: Hi, with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them here first, so I know they land in a good home. Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. I only have 8 of them. - Henk. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Mar 11 16:00:39 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:00:39 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That was fast! They are gone! tnx, - Henk. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Henk Gooijen" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:28 PM To: "cctalk" Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > Hi, > > with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, > I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. > My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) > I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them > here first, so I know they land in a good home. > Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). > First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. > I only have 8 of them. > > - Henk. > From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 16:37:04 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:37:04 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Crap! On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > That was fast! They are gone! > > tnx, > - Henk. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Henk Gooijen" > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:28 PM > To: "cctalk" > Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > > >> Hi, >> >> with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, >> I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. >> My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) >> I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them >> here first, so I know they land in a good home. >> Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). >> First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. >> I only have 8 of them. >> >> - Henk. -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 18:39:43 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 18:39:43 -0500 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5D37BF.90405@gmail.com> On 03/11/2012 03:28 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Hi, > > with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, > I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. > My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) > I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them > here first, so I know they land in a good home. > Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). > First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. > I only have 8 of them. Oh, I love those things! :-) I think I still have about eight too in the (overseas) junk box; I used to use them a lot as displays when I was prototyping stuff. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 19:54:13 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 21:54:13 -0300 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays References: Message-ID: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> Henk, aren't they used on FT101ZD and 301Z radios? Maybe some hams have better use for them :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henk Gooijen" To: "cctalk" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > Hi, > > with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, > I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. > My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) > I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them > here first, so I know they land in a good home. > Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). > First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. > I only have 8 of them. > > - Henk. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 11 22:08:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:08:39 -0400 Subject: radio displays, was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F5D68B7.9060902@neurotica.com> On 03/11/2012 08:54 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Henk, aren't they used on FT101ZD and 301Z radios? Maybe some hams have > better use for them :) Speaking of which, does anyone have any HP 5082-7415 displays? I need one for my Yaesu FT-ONE transceiver. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From gord.tulloch at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 23:59:20 2012 From: gord.tulloch at gmail.com (Gord Tulloch) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:59:20 -0500 Subject: Browsers for OS/2 2.1? In-Reply-To: <4F55EEC5.18438.658476@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F55EEC5.18438.658476@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I seem to recall using Mosaic and Netscape for Windoze under 2.1's Windows environment with Winsock over dialup... Cello also worked (see http://browsers.evolt.org/archive/cello/16bit/cellofaq.zip) since it had it's own integral TCP/IP stack, but again I think that was Windows code not native OS/2. Pretty sure WebExplorer in Warp was the first native browsers... you might motivate me to fire up my P1 166mhz box and see what works if you're not careful! :) Based on the FAQ Cello might work best, it says it works best over a hard wired connection... Regards, Gord On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a whim, I installed OS/2 2.1 on a P1 system last night (Hint: it > helps to have a multi-boot setup with a network-capable OS on one > partition--saves a lot of floppy work). > > I could get MS Lanman for OS/2 working okay, but then I ran into a > problem--it seems that FreeTCP and most browsers for OS/2 say "Warp 3 > or later". And getting a browser-suitable TCP/IP stack seems to be > no small issue. IBM Web explorer seems to want Warp as well. > > Lanman has a TCP/IP stack of sorts, but it's undocumented and > apparently used only for NetBEUI protocol. The only TCP/IP program > that uses it seems to be the "ping" packaged with Lanman. > > Has anyone ever gotten a browser to work on 2.1 over an ethernet > TCP/IP connection? If so, how? > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > -- Gord Tulloch, Winnipeg, MB Ph. 204-223-4627 -- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 00:24:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:24:37 -0700 Subject: Browsers for OS/2 2.1? In-Reply-To: References: <4F55EEC5.18438.658476@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F5D2625.4333.2A76904@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Mar 2012 at 23:59, Gord Tulloch wrote: > I seem to recall using Mosaic and Netscape for Windoze under 2.1's > Windows environment with Winsock over dialup... Cello also worked (see > http://browsers.evolt.org/archive/cello/16bit/cellofaq.zip) since it > had it's own integral TCP/IP stack, but again I think that was Windows > code not native OS/2. Pretty sure WebExplorer in Warp was the first > native browsers... you might motivate me to fire up my P1 166mhz box > and see what works if you're not careful! :) > > Based on the FAQ Cello might work best, it says it works best over a > hard wired connection... I'd like to do this over ethernet. Right now, I'm trying the IAK for Warp and using FreeTCP to provide the NIC support, but there appears to be some Warp-dependent issues (I may see if setting the version in the OSVER file to see if that clears things up. Web Explorer does come right up, but of course, can't find TCP support. I forgot what a beast upgrades were. I have the XR 6200 upgrade (2.10 to 2.11). 21 diskettes! All of this fun with network setup is gradually beginning to feel familiar.... Thanks, Chuck From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 16:36:08 2012 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 15:36:08 -0600 Subject: Basic V01B-02 Message-ID: Does anybody have a copy of the PDP-11 Basic V01B-02 distribution tapes for RT-11 v2C? There should be 2 DecTapes (TU-56). My understanding is that the tapes should be labelled: DEC-11-LBACA-C-UC1 DEC-11-LBACA-C-UC2 There is a copy of the first tape on Bitsavers ( http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/dectape/BS/basv1b.dta) which does include a runnable copy of Basic, but I would like to rebuild the system. The source portions (BASICL.MAC, and BASICH.MAC) are not on the tape. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. --barrym From wim at hackbox.be Sun Mar 11 18:10:28 2012 From: wim at hackbox.be (Wim Livens) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 00:10:28 +0100 Subject: MOSAID MS2200 Message-ID: <4F5D30E4.1080802@hackbox.be> I've just picked up a device named "MS2200 Memory Tester" made by MOSAID. It came with abox called "M22110" to connect the RAM chip under test (I guess). It seems functional. Using the front panel, I can run tests and even get a sort of raster image on a scope in X-Y mode. But I have no clue how to connect a RAM chip. I can't find any docs at all. Anyone knows anything about this thing? Thanks, Wim. From alkopop79 at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 23:07:28 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 04:07:28 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > - assuming the power supply is correct and clean, > Checked. > > - you did put pull-up resistors on the 1802 inputs such as nDMAOUT and > nINTR, didn't you? > Done. > > > > - check the Examine mode. > The idea is each push of the INPUT switch should result in a presentation > of the memory contents. > Assuming the memory contents is somewhat random at this point, the > display should present random values. > That's one of the problems. Even if I push the input button, *Q* output of the the flipflop (4013) doesn't change. Seems like the 4013 doesn't work properly. > I'm suggesting all this from just looking at the schematic and 1802 > datasheet, errors are possible and sanity checks will be a good idea. I checked both 1802s. They work fine. Also, the damn 4016s does not anything let through. I tested them (for the third time) on a separate breadboard and they work fine. When I place them back, they stop letting anything through. When I set any of the output pins (bus wires), the display changes accordingly (for instance setting pin 2 of the 4016 will set the display's content to '2' from '0'). It seems to me that the fault must be somewhere in the input circuitry. Will remove the 4013 and test it. > > > > On 2012 Mar 9, at 5:29 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > Brent, I checked the 1802 (both of them) and they seem to work fine. When >> the CLEAR and WAIT pin are set high or low accordingly, TPA and TPB sends >> timing pulses (checked with the scope), the status pins SC1 and SC0 show >> the state of the processor (checked it against the truth table, works >> fine). I think they work fine. If you have any ideas how to test the 1802s >> further, let me know! >> >> Greg >> >> On 8 March 2012 08:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> On 2012 Mar 7, at 8:21 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>> >>> I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised that >>> this >>> >>>> schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it >>>> works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't under my >>>> overdraft... >>>> >>>> >>> Inverting or non-inverting: it depends on other aspects of the >>> implementation. >>> >>> Comparing with the schematic here: >>> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/****bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-35.htm >>> >>> > >>> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/****bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-36.htm >>> >>> > >>> >>> (There is an error on page 36: IC5 at the RUN switch is labelled as 4050 >>> (non-inverting and correct) but shown as an inverter.) >>> >>> If you are following the original design strictly it looks like there >>> should be a 4049 and two 4050s. >>> >>> The implementation I happen to have uses three 4049s because: >>> - simple LEDs are used for the display and so required inverters, >>> - the display latch is inverted as it is a different latch type, >>> - replaced the RUN-switch single-element non-inverting debounce circuit >>> with a two-inverter circuit like the other debounce circuits. >>> >>> I mentioned my schematic because it shows things on one page and the >>> control flow is clearer, I hope the implementation differences aren't >>> confusing things too much. >>> >>> You mentioned checking a few things, but I don't think you actually told >>> use what the problem symptoms are. >>> Is the 1802 oscillator running? >>> One suggestion would be to check that the levels at the mode inputs of >>> the >>> 1802 are correct for given switch settings. >>> >>> > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 12 09:04:39 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:04:39 -0700 Subject: Programma 101 Message-ID: <4F5E0277.2050603@jwsss.com> oops http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400276267489 sort of sad to have to joke about it. This scrapper has his spotters for vintage equipment in the wrong part of the building. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 12 09:18:48 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:18:48 -0700 Subject: Intel development process Message-ID: <4F5E05C8.2090007@jwsss.com> If you go to epay and put in "intel development confidential" (minus the quotes) you will get a glimpse into Intel's development methods. Looks like bondout versions of their chips with everything on the chip run out to pads for testing. The seller is in Israel, where a lot of the design work is done for Intel. Jim From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 09:31:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:31:09 -0400 Subject: Intel development process In-Reply-To: <4F5E05C8.2090007@jwsss.com> References: <4F5E05C8.2090007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2012, at 10:18 AM, jim s wrote: > If you go to epay and put in "intel development confidential" (minus the quotes) you will get a glimpse into Intel's development methods. Looks like bondout versions of their chips with everything on the chip run out to pads for testing. Hey, that's pretty spiffy. Hell of a breakout board. I recall when a distributor was trying to sell us on using a Core2 Quad for some of the embedded work we do (we were considering, and eventually used, a PowerPC because you don't need a Core2 Quad to run a router). Thing was ~100W on a ~1V power supply, which meant the datasheet actually said the Vdd rail required about 100A. Raised a few eyebrows. Of course, there was no reason for us to use it at all, but the sales "engineer" at the distributor didn't quite see it that way. Not quite classic computing, but I thought it was worth mentioning that when my computing takes 100W, I at least have a whole rack of cards to show for it. :-) - Dave From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Mon Mar 12 10:01:52 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:01:52 +0100 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <201202272307.SAA19948@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202272307.SAA19948@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1331564512.1945.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-02-27 klockan 18:07 -0500 skrev Mouse: > > Not supplying spare parts for 'safety reasons' (I've got news for > > you. It can;'t be less safe for me to repair somethng with the right > > parts than for me to have to werk out the imporat characteristics of > > said parts and make soethign that will work). > > Your safety is distinctly secondary there. The relevant safety is > _their_ safety, from liability suits. If they don't support user > repairs at all, they have a more effective legal shield against idiots > botching repairs and then blaming them. Calling it user safety is a > CYA measure on their part. > > If more of the world had sane legal systems, this wouldn't be an issue. > But a discouragingly large fraction of the world isn't sane in that > regard. > > There's also another effect at work: not providing parts raises the > bar. There are people who would attempt a repair given parts but, > faced with no easy-to-obtain "correct" parts, will give up and get a > new one rather than doing what you do and creating a suitable part or > deducing which stock item already is suitable. > A number of years ago we had in Sweden multiple independent manufacturers of household items (stoves,fridges including dish washers.) Nowadays it is 'Cylinda' (washers, cloth driers, dishwashers), Electrolux (who really only makes fridges and tabletop dish washers here in Sweden, the rest of their plants is in Germany,Italy and Hungary) Until the 80's it existed a number of import firms/manufacturer suppliers including a guy who sold 'Hanning' pumps to the washer/dish washer manufacturers. He saw early the industry consolidations who would come so he started to sell the same parts which he sold to the manufacturers as repair parts directly to consumers and independent service techs. A number of industry pundits warned him against this because he risked loosing the manufacturers. Later on it was an hullabalo about electric machines catching fire and the use of below-spec parts was blaimed and the manufacturers got a lot of questions about their policy against independent import of oem parts for their machines. After that bit of lesson to the manufacturers the independent importers didnt have to worry anymore.... From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 12 11:14:46 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:14:46 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: Hi Alexandre, I really don't know if those displays are used in the old (great) FT sets. Maybe I am becoming an old fart ... those new Japanese thingies with those tiny knobs and (even worse) small texts on the front are not for me. Perhaps also because my eye sight is not what it used to be. I need glasses :-( Anyways, the displays were gone in 15 minutes! I still have a few HP dot-matrix displays with decoder inside it. Always wanted to build *something* with them. Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch higher :-) - Henk, PA8PDP -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 1:54 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > > Henk, aren't they used on FT101ZD and 301Z radios? Maybe some hams have > better use for them :) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henk Gooijen" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:28 PM > Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > > >> Hi, >> >> with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, >> I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. >> My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) >> I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them >> here first, so I know they land in a good home. >> Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). >> First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. >> I only have 8 of them. >> >> - Henk. > > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 12 11:16:46 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:16:46 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5D37BF.90405@gmail.com> References: <4F5D37BF.90405@gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 12:39 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > On 03/11/2012 03:28 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Hi, >> >> with all this talking about the COSMAC and the gizmo from STG, >> I went searching through my boxes for some TIL311 displays. >> My rusty memory has still some good spots :-) >> I have 8 TIL311 displays which I can list on eBay, but I offer them >> here first, so I know they land in a good home. >> Asking $35 (for all 8) plus shipping (from The Netherlands). >> First responder to pa8pdp AT amsat DOT org gets them. >> I only have 8 of them. > > Oh, I love those things! :-) > > I think I still have about eight too in the (overseas) junk box; I used to > use them a lot as displays when I was prototyping stuff. And they are among the coolest looking displays, IMHO. Always loved (red) LED displays over all those flimsy LCD displays (again IMHO). - Henk. From alkopop79 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 08:17:27 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:17:27 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Created a diagram to log the faults: *http://tinyurl.com/6okrnnn* * * The symptoms: the 4016's are not enabled by the control circuit (IC11 p2 <--> IC8/9 pin 5,6,12,13) and the displays' latch is often not enabled (IC4 pin15 --> IC6/7 pin5). Both are controlled by the NAND gate and the flipflop (4023 and 4013). I guess I have to test the two thoroughly, both the ICs and the wiring. Every other parts of the computer have been tested and found working: 1802, buffer (inverting and non-inverting), the HP hex displays, the power distribution, switches, bus, etc. I haven't tested the RAMs yet but I have plenty of them and the bus works just fine. I also measured the voltage and ground pins of each IC and they're fine. Would love to see this thing working... Greg On 12 March 2012 04:07, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > > >> - assuming the power supply is correct and clean, >> > > Checked. > >> >> - you did put pull-up resistors on the 1802 inputs such as nDMAOUT and >> nINTR, didn't you? >> > > Done. > >> >> >> >> - check the Examine mode. >> The idea is each push of the INPUT switch should result in a >> presentation of the memory contents. >> Assuming the memory contents is somewhat random at this point, the >> display should present random values. >> > > That's one of the problems. Even if I push the input button, *Q* output > of the the flipflop (4013) doesn't change. Seems like the 4013 doesn't > work properly. > > > > >> I'm suggesting all this from just looking at the schematic and 1802 >> datasheet, errors are possible and sanity checks will be a good idea. > > > I checked both 1802s. They work fine. Also, the damn 4016s does not > anything let through. I tested them (for the third time) on a separate > breadboard and they work fine. When I place them back, they stop letting > anything through. When I set any of the output pins (bus wires), the > display changes accordingly (for instance setting pin 2 of the 4016 will > set the display's content to '2' from '0'). It seems to me that the fault > must be somewhere in the input circuitry. Will remove the 4013 and test it. > >> >> >> >> On 2012 Mar 9, at 5:29 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> Brent, I checked the 1802 (both of them) and they seem to work fine. When >>> the CLEAR and WAIT pin are set high or low accordingly, TPA and TPB sends >>> timing pulses (checked with the scope), the status pins SC1 and SC0 show >>> the state of the processor (checked it against the truth table, works >>> fine). I think they work fine. If you have any ideas how to test the >>> 1802s >>> further, let me know! >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On 8 March 2012 08:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>> On 2012 Mar 7, at 8:21 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>>> >>>> I finally had time to have a look at the schematics. I realised that >>>> this >>>> >>>>> schematics replaced the two 4050's with 4049s. Can you confirm that it >>>>> works? Will purchase a couple of 4049 this week, wish I wasn't under my >>>>> overdraft... >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Inverting or non-inverting: it depends on other aspects of the >>>> implementation. >>>> >>>> Comparing with the schematic here: >>>> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/****bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-35.htm >>>> >>>> > >>>> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/****bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-36.htm >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> (There is an error on page 36: IC5 at the RUN switch is labelled as 4050 >>>> (non-inverting and correct) but shown as an inverter.) >>>> >>>> If you are following the original design strictly it looks like there >>>> should be a 4049 and two 4050s. >>>> >>>> The implementation I happen to have uses three 4049s because: >>>> - simple LEDs are used for the display and so required inverters, >>>> - the display latch is inverted as it is a different latch type, >>>> - replaced the RUN-switch single-element non-inverting debounce circuit >>>> with a two-inverter circuit like the other debounce circuits. >>>> >>>> I mentioned my schematic because it shows things on one page and the >>>> control flow is clearer, I hope the implementation differences aren't >>>> confusing things too much. >>>> >>>> You mentioned checking a few things, but I don't think you actually told >>>> use what the problem symptoms are. >>>> Is the 1802 oscillator running? >>>> One suggestion would be to check that the levels at the mode inputs of >>>> the >>>> 1802 are correct for given switch settings. >>>> >>>> >> >> > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Mar 12 13:36:24 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:36:24 +0000 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> On 12/03/12 16:14, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are > very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch > higher :-) What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar make? I always thought they looked cool. And plasma displays... those are neat too :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 13:48:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:48:16 -0400 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 12/03/12 16:14, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are >> very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch >> higher :-) > > What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar > make? I always thought they looked cool. Planar amber EL panels are nice (I have an ELT320), but I don't think they ever scaled that down to the 1-line size like some of intelligent LED displays. They probably didn't need to move into the range that VFDs have occupied very successfully, if I had to guess. > And plasma displays... those are neat too :) Those certainly have a glow all their own. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 13:56:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:56:48 -0400 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F5E46F0.70001@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2012 02:36 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 12/03/12 16:14, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are >> very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch >> higher :-) > > What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar > make? I always thought they looked cool. > > And plasma displays... those are neat too :) I love displays as well. This is my current favorite, the HP 5082-7359: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg Ceramic base, glass top, hermetically sealed, built like a tank, and absolutely gorgeous. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 12 14:11:13 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:11:13 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> <4F5E46F0.70001@neurotica.com> References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> <4F5E46F0.70001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 7:56 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > On 03/12/2012 02:36 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> On 12/03/12 16:14, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are >>> very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch >>> higher :-) >> >> What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar >> make? I always thought they looked cool. >> >> And plasma displays... those are neat too :) > > I love displays as well. This is my current favorite, the HP 5082-7359: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg > > Ceramic base, glass top, hermetically sealed, built like a tank, and > absolutely gorgeous. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Ah yes, those I have! The ones shown on the left side of the picture. Both types, the grey-ish ones with transparant glass at the top and the red ones at the bottom! I must admit, I searched for the FT-ONE displays, but only found the red ones plus the grey-ish ones. I did not know that I had those ... time to spend some more time checking out all those little boxes. - Henk, PA8PDP From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 12 14:14:03 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:14:03 -0700 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 11, at 9:07 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> - check the Examine mode. >> The idea is each push of the INPUT switch should result in a >> presentation >> of the memory contents. >> Assuming the memory contents is somewhat random at this point, the >> display should present random values. >> > > That's one of the problems. Even if I push the input button, *Q* > output of > the the flipflop (4013) doesn't change. Seems like the 4013 > doesn't work > properly. How about the input conditions for the 4013? D/9 = 5V C/11 = 5V, goes to 0V with push of INPUT switch R/10 = 0V (pulses to 5V for uSecs via 1802 after release of INPUT switch) Keeping in mind the output (nQ) of the 4013 will only change (go to 0V) for a few microseconds. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 14:20:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:20:22 -0400 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> <4F5E46F0.70001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5E4C76.9060301@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2012 03:11 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are >>>> very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch >>>> higher :-) >>> >>> What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar >>> make? I always thought they looked cool. >>> >>> And plasma displays... those are neat too :) >> >> I love displays as well. This is my current favorite, the HP 5082-7359: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg >> >> Ceramic base, glass top, hermetically sealed, built like a tank, and >> absolutely gorgeous. > > Ah yes, those I have! The ones shown on the left side of the picture. > Both types, the grey-ish ones with transparant glass at the top and > the red ones at the bottom! Nice! I have lots of great displays, which I don't have just to "collect" them, I want to use them. My problem is thinking "wow, this is a really special display, I need a really special project to put it in!" ...then no project seems to be special enough. ;) So there they sit, wasted, in anti-static boxes. I really need to start using the special ones. > I must admit, I searched for the FT-ONE displays, but only found the > red ones plus the grey-ish ones. I did not know that I had those ... > time to spend some more time checking out all those little boxes. Thanks for checking! The FT-ONE is one of my favorite transcievers, but one of the little displays to the right has lost a segment. It's...just not right. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 15:30:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:30:36 -0400 Subject: more on strange PCB "short", fixed! Message-ID: <4F5E5CEC.8090109@neurotica.com> I've fixed the short problem. It was my mistake. It wasn't a bug in PCB (thank heaven) but PCB's short detection/highlighting code sent me all over the place looking for it. I'm not sure if there's a better way to handle that or not. Basically a component on the other side of the board, an 0805 resistor, was supposed to have one of its pads connected to 3.3V. Instead it was connected to GND. Tired eyes and a tough deadline is what I blame. :) For some details (which I actually started typing as I narrowed this down, before I found the problem, so it'll read weird) see below. Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions! -Dave I deleted the 3.3V and GND planes, and narrowed it down to an 0805 resistor. One of its pads is highlighted in orange. If I delete that resistor, the short goes away. When I put it back (by placing a fresh 0805 from the library and giving it the same refdes) the short comes back. One pad of the resistor is connected to GND. It goes nowhere near 3.3V. I've deleted and redrawn the traces going to that resistor, checking for the short after every move. I've narrowed it down to one of that resistors pads; the one that gets highlighted in orange. That's the one that connects to GND. If I delete the trace that connects that pad to GND, the short goes away. BUT!! I've delete the GND plane, and the via w/thermal that connected that trace to that plane. It connected to another resistor's pad, which was erroneously connected to the GND net, when it was supposed to be connected to 3.3V. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 12 15:43:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:43:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 12, 12 02:48:16 pm Message-ID: > > What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar > > make? I always thought they looked cool. > > Planar amber EL panels are nice (I have an ELT320), but I don't think > they ever scaled that down to the 1-line size like some of intelligent > LED displays. They probably didn't need to move into the range that > VFDs have occupied very successfully, if I had to guess. > What about the Panaplex 7-segemnt gas discharge displays? Or the gas discharge dot-matrix displays that include their own 'sift register)? You know how you can step a discharge round a dekatron tub, well at least one mnufacturer made a dot matrix display on that principle. You applied the next column of dots to the electrodes at one end, then sequenced the 2 control electrodes, and all the dots moved along one cloumn. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 16:26:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:26:08 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 12, 12 02:48:16 pm, Message-ID: <4F5E0780.9917.11AF1C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2012 at 20:43, Tony Duell wrote: > What about the Panaplex 7-segemnt gas discharge displays? > > Or the gas discharge dot-matrix displays that include their own 'sift > register)? You know how you can step a discharge round a dekatron tub, > well at least one mnufacturer made a dot matrix display on that > principle. You applied the next column of dots to the electrodes at > one end, then sequenced the 2 control electrodes, and all the dots > moved along one cloumn. I liked the mechanical project-type display, where a stepping arrangement moved a strip of film. Probably a bit large for an Elf, though. Nimo tubes, anyone? --Chuck From cb at kryoflux.com Mon Mar 12 16:40:42 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:40:42 +0100 Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D007328-9B03-4F18-B91D-3CC149E585BA@kryoflux.com> > So you're making the claim that the file formats are fully open, > fully documented, and anyone can extract the data at any time, > regardless of the status of KryoFlux Ltd? Hi Dave, yes - that was the intention of putting the source up there. The old licence will be tidied up more and more, but again, to make something available now, the IPF source was released with a very short and permissive licence. I would also like to point out that there's a very informative third-party website around that's run by Jean Louis-Guerin. He's helping with seeing things from the user side. You tend to become blind for the obvious when you do things for a long time. http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/devices/kryoflux.php There's much free info there, and it also has another document on the STREAM format produced by KryoFlux. Someone mentioned he'd regard the file format as documentation (which would then be covered by the licence), so here's an independent source: http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/devices/kryoflux/kryoflux_stream_protocol.pdf You might want to take note of the fact that this is independent stuff and we've encouraged Jean to release whatever he wants to release. From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 16:43:56 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:43:56 -0400 Subject: Tychon Board Message-ID: Can anyone identify this board? I got it with a bunch of old TRS-80 hardware, but it's not necessarily related. It says "Designed by the Blacksburg Group Copyright 1979 TYCHON". Any ideas? http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream Thanks, Win From cb at kryoflux.com Mon Mar 12 16:45:18 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:45:18 +0100 Subject: SPS licence (was: Re:Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > No, the problem is the redefinition of Derivative Works to include any > images produced by the device using the KF binary software > distribution. Since the binary blob falls under this license, this > means all IPFs (and STREAM dumps too) that were dumped with the KF. Although not intentional, this is the heritage of the library when there was nothing else to be covered. We don't claim ownership in any data dumped with KryoFlux, and this will be addressed in the next release. For now all I can offer is that people in doubt will get written (email) confirmation. This applies to all data ever read with the unit. Thanks for pointing this out. > If all you wanted to do is prevent compilation CDs of IPFs, > prohibiting the IPF library from being redistributed should have been > enough. Such a prohibition is in the licenses. I don't see why such a > redefinition of derivative works, and restriction on what you can do > with these "derivative works", was ever necessary. > There was a time when such companies would just feed whatever they could into extended ADFs, which would have caused more trouble than fun. Again, this was when the Amiga was still in the commercial marketplace and the idea was to stop people from forging things. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 12 16:46:13 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:46:13 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E0780.9917.11AF1C6@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 12, 12 02:48:16 pm, <4F5E0780.9917.11AF1C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F5E6EA5.60907@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I liked the mechanical project-type display, where a stepping > arrangement moved a strip of film. I've never seen that kind, but it sounds very cool! The projection displays I've seen use an array of twelve incandescent bulbs, film with a corresponsing array of twelve glyphs to act as masks, and a plastic molded piece that provides twelve lenses. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 12 17:01:50 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/12/12, Win Heagy wrote: > Can anyone identify this board?? > I got it with a bunch of old TRS-80 > hardware, but it's not necessarily related.? It says > "Designed by the > Blacksburg Group???Copyright 1979? > TYCHON".? Any ideas? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream Nope. Can't even see it. "You must be signed in to see this content." -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 17:09:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:09:23 -0400 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5E7413.2070804@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2012 05:43 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Can anyone identify this board? I got it with a bunch of old TRS-80 > hardware, but it's not necessarily related. It says "Designed by the > Blacksburg Group Copyright 1979 TYCHON". Any ideas? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream "You must be signed in to see this content" Doesn't anybody actually have their own networks anymore? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 17:21:19 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:21:19 -0700 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F5E76DF.7080702@gmail.com> Imgur is easy and free. Full of cat pictures too. http://imgur.com/ On 3/12/2012 3:01 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream > Nope. Can't even see it. "You must be signed in to see this content." > > -Ian > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 12 17:38:40 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:38:40 -0700 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5E7AF0.4010803@jwsss.com> some sort of proto board looking thing with a 50 pin ribbon cable to ?? and a breadboard area at the bottom. Missing what might be regulation, so maybe someone had supplied the DC voltages and didn't need to condition the supply. On 3/12/2012 2:43 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Can anyone identify this board? I got it with a bunch of old TRS-80 > hardware, but it's not necessarily related. It says "Designed by the > Blacksburg Group Copyright 1979 TYCHON". Any ideas? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream > > Thanks, Win > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 12 17:56:44 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:56:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Query Any TI-961 experts? Message-ID: <201203122257.q2CMvb7S028287@billy.ezwind.net> The guy at Comco, the tape drive repair place, is looking for an expert on 21-track TI-961 drives who can set up a drive in Cairo. - John From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Mar 12 18:25:37 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel development process In-Reply-To: <4F5E05C8.2090007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1331594737.35691.YahooMailClassic@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/12/12, jim s wrote: > Subject: Intel development process These look like wafer-probe cards. They are used in laboratory and production chip testers to interface to unpackaged wafers. We had a tester in-house at a former employer, and the probe cards looked very similar to these. Google for "wafer probe card". --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 18:47:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:47:31 -0700 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F5E28A3.27682.19C6127@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2012 at 15:01, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream > > Nope. Can't even see it. "You must be signed in to see this content." If you've got a Yahoo! ID, you can get to see it. However, one puzzler is the message: "This photo falls outside your current SafeSearch filter. You can click through to see it if you want." (Guy in a trenchcoat whispering "Hey, you wanna buy some feelthy peekchures?") --Chuck From d235j.1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 18:50:27 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:50:27 -0400 Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: <2D007328-9B03-4F18-B91D-3CC149E585BA@kryoflux.com> References: <2D007328-9B03-4F18-B91D-3CC149E585BA@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <5981809637886307827@unknownmsgid> Although what you say is true concerning the source distribution of the IPF library, the old (and bad) license still applies to the KF software and firmware and binary IPF library distribution. And by the definition of derivative works in it, I am not allowed to convert any images in it with a non-SPS decoder implementation. In order to clear this up, the KF software license (or at least the section defining derivative works) would need to be revised. There is also my concern about institutional use, which still stands. --Dave Sent from my iPhone On Mar 12, 2012, at 5:44 PM, "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." wrote: > >> So you're making the claim that the file formats are fully open, >> fully documented, and anyone can extract the data at any time, >> regardless of the status of KryoFlux Ltd? > > Hi Dave, > > yes - that was the intention of putting the source up there. The old licence will be tidied up more and more, but again, to make something available now, the IPF source was released with a very short and permissive licence. > > I would also like to point out that there's a very informative third-party website around that's run by Jean Louis-Guerin. He's helping with seeing things from the user side. You tend to become blind for the obvious when you do things for a long time. > > http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/devices/kryoflux.php > > > There's much free info there, and it also has another document on the STREAM format produced by KryoFlux. Someone mentioned he'd regard the file format as documentation (which would then be covered by the licence), so here's an independent source: > > http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/devices/kryoflux/kryoflux_stream_protocol.pdf > > > You might want to take note of the fact that this is independent stuff and we've encouraged Jean to release whatever he wants to release. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 18:52:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:52:54 -0400 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: <4F5E28A3.27682.19C6127@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F5E28A3.27682.19C6127@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F5E8C56.5040801@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2012 07:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream >> >> Nope. Can't even see it. "You must be signed in to see this content." > > If you've got a Yahoo! ID, you can get to see it. However, one > puzzler is the message: > > "This photo falls outside your current SafeSearch filter. > You can click through to see it if you want." > > (Guy in a trenchcoat whispering "Hey, you wanna buy some feelthy > peekchures?") [raises hand] I'll take some! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 18:59:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:59:19 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E6EA5.60907@brouhaha.com> References: , <4F5E0780.9917.11AF1C6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F5E6EA5.60907@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F5E2B67.21880.1A72F92@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2012 at 14:46, Eric Smith wrote: > I've never seen that kind, but it sounds very cool! The projection > displays I've seen use an array of twelve incandescent bulbs, film > with a corresponsing array of twelve glyphs to act as masks, and a > plastic molded piece that provides twelve lenses. Usually used on some 50s military gear, if memory serves. encased in metal, perhaps 10-12" in length with connector on the rear and a plate retained by screws for (single) bulb replacement. Retention screws in the front bezel; very clearly meant for rough service. I can't find an image of one on the web. I don't recall who made them. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Mar 12 19:17:11 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: HP 13232C cable Message-ID: Does anyone have a spare 13232C (02640-60059) cable to sell? I can build one, but thought I'd check here, first. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 12 19:20:28 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:20:28 -0600 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: <4F5E8C56.5040801@neurotica.com> References: , <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F5E28A3.27682.19C6127@cclist.sydex.com> <4F5E8C56.5040801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5E92CC.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/12/2012 5:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/12/2012 07:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream >>> >>> Nope. Can't even see it. "You must be signed in to see this content." >> >> If you've got a Yahoo! ID, you can get to see it. However, one >> puzzler is the message: >> >> "This photo falls outside your current SafeSearch filter. >> You can click through to see it if you want." >> >> (Guy in a trenchcoat whispering "Hey, you wanna buy some feelthy >> peekchures?") > > [raises hand] I'll take some! > 8x10 glossy's or 16 mm? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 12 19:29:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:29:25 -0400 Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: <4F5E92CC.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <1331589710.62304.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F5E28A3.27682.19C6127@cclist.sydex.com> <4F5E8C56.5040801@neurotica.com> <4F5E92CC.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F5E94E5.1010501@neurotica.com> On 03/12/2012 08:20 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/12/2012 5:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 03/12/2012 07:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream >>>> >>>> Nope. Can't even see it. "You must be signed in to see this content." >>> >>> If you've got a Yahoo! ID, you can get to see it. However, one >>> puzzler is the message: >>> >>> "This photo falls outside your current SafeSearch filter. >>> You can click through to see it if you want." >>> >>> (Guy in a trenchcoat whispering "Hey, you wanna buy some feelthy >>> peekchures?") >> >> [raises hand] I'll take some! >> > > 8x10 glossy's or 16 mm? Glossy please. They're more resilient to, umm, liquids. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 19:44:58 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:44:58 -0400 Subject: Tychon Board, Take 2 Message-ID: Ok, let's try this again. Nothing is easy.... Can anyone identify this board? I got it with a bunch of old TRS-80 hardware, but it's not necessarily related. It says "Designed by the Blacksburg Group Copyright 1979 TYCHON". Any ideas? http://i.imgur.com/cDncC.jpg Thanks, Win From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 12 19:47:14 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:47:14 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E6EA5.60907@brouhaha.com> References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 12, 12 02:48:16 pm, <4F5E0780.9917.11AF1C6@cclist.sydex.com> <4F5E6EA5.60907@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <37255AA9-4A66-4814-9E12-685644CAAAA9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 12, at 2:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I liked the mechanical project-type display, where a stepping >> arrangement moved a strip of film. > > I've never seen that kind, but it sounds very cool! The projection > displays I've seen use an array of twelve incandescent bulbs, film > with a corresponsing array of twelve glyphs to act as masks, and a > plastic molded piece that provides twelve lenses. e.g.: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/VennerTSA3336/index.html From d235j.1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 19:53:09 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:53:09 -0400 Subject: SPS licence (was: Re:Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6596644048626361128@unknownmsgid> The best (and probably the only effective) way to prevent distribution of forged images are signing them with GnuPG, or providing a list of SHA-1 (or better, MD5 can be forged too easily) checksums of known good images. Otherwise, anyone can tamper with images, even with a simple hex editor. Also I hadn't received your second message when I replied to the first. Some of my points still stand though. ~~~~ In this field of data preservation, the only way we'll actually be able to get things done successfully and actually preserve the most history is by working together. Sure this might cut into the profits of some, but if the goal is profits (or even amassing a large private collection), then you're in the wrong business. Concerning SPS, I think the fact that only game dumps are accepting is rather telling. There is a load of software, for Amiga and other platforms, which is at least as important to preserve. The other day I talked to a former Amiga game developer, who mentioned that Digi-Paint was used heavily in game development. I managed to locate a copy, but it appears that software like this, which may be important to play around with art assets included in games, does not fall into the kind of materials that SPS is interested in. I may be wrong about this, but in regards to preserving this stuff, personally I'd trust an open, helpful group like BitSavers much more than a private group interested in selling their products. (I'm including CTA here: yes, you may need to know what you're doing, but as a developer, tinkerer, and one interested in reverse-engineering, I'm sure I'd be able to figure out how to use such complicated software.) --Dave Sent from my iPhone On Mar 12, 2012, at 6:00 PM, "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." wrote: > >> No, the problem is the redefinition of Derivative Works to include any >> images produced by the device using the KF binary software >> distribution. Since the binary blob falls under this license, this >> means all IPFs (and STREAM dumps too) that were dumped with the KF. > > Although not intentional, this is the heritage of the library when there was nothing else to be covered. We don't claim ownership in any data dumped with KryoFlux, and this will be addressed in the next release. For now all I can offer is that people in doubt will get written (email) confirmation. This applies to all data ever read with the unit. > > Thanks for pointing this out. > > >> If all you wanted to do is prevent compilation CDs of IPFs, >> prohibiting the IPF library from being redistributed should have been >> enough. Such a prohibition is in the licenses. I don't see why such a >> redefinition of derivative works, and restriction on what you can do >> with these "derivative works", was ever necessary. >> > > There was a time when such companies would just feed whatever they could into extended ADFs, which would have caused more trouble than fun. Again, this was when the Amiga was still in the commercial marketplace and the idea was to stop people from forging things. > From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 19:52:40 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:52:40 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E46F0.70001@neurotica.com> References: <01c201ccffea$b0ecf090$6400a8c0@tababook> <4F5E4228.3050907@philpem.me.uk> <4F5E46F0.70001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5E9A58.4010801@gmail.com> On 3/12/2012 11:56 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/12/2012 02:36 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> On 12/03/12 16:14, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Personally, those red dot-matrix displays are >>> very high on my list of great looking displays. CRTs are just one notch >>> higher :-) >> >> What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar >> make? I always thought they looked cool. >> >> And plasma displays... those are neat too :) > > I love displays as well. This is my current favorite, the HP 5082-7359: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg > > Ceramic base, glass top, hermetically sealed, built like a tank, and > absolutely gorgeous. > > -Dave > I have 4x 5082-7100 displays. Similar except 3 digits per package. I'm waiting for the right project to use them. Bob. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 19:56:28 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:56:28 -0700 Subject: Wanted: HP 13232C cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > ? Does anyone have a spare 13232C (02640-60059) cable to sell? ?I can build > one, but thought I'd check here, first. > Which cable is that? Card edge connector on the terminal side and what on the other side? A DB25 connector? Another card edge connector for an HP-1000 interface? From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Mar 12 20:02:49 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:02:49 -0400 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays Message-ID: >> What about the Panaplex 7-segemnt gas discharge displays? >> >> Or the gas discharge dot-matrix displays that include their own 'sift >> register)? You know how you can step a discharge round a dekatron tub, > > I liked the mechanical project-type display, where a stepping > arrangement moved a strip of film. Probably a bit large for an Elf, > though. My faves: Flip-dots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display Edge illuminated numeric displays (link shows a modern version... the old ones used grain of wheat lamps): http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/18/edge-lit-led-nixie-tube-display/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 12 20:32:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:32:03 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <37255AA9-4A66-4814-9E12-685644CAAAA9@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4F5E6EA5.60907@brouhaha.com>, <37255AA9-4A66-4814-9E12-685644CAAAA9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F5E4123.1783.1FC1507@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Mar 2012 at 17:47, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Mar 12, at 2:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I liked the mechanical project-type display, where a stepping > >> arrangement moved a strip of film. > > > > I've never seen that kind, but it sounds very cool! The projection > > displays I've seen use an array of twelve incandescent bulbs, film > > with a corresponsing array of twelve glyphs to act as masks, and a > > plastic molded piece that provides twelve lenses. > > e.g.: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/VennerTSA3336/index.html Another take on the same idea. The ones that I had used a long strip of sprocketed film in a continuous loop, moved by a solenoid-and- ratchet stepping system. Heavy buggers because of the steel case on each module. I suspect that there were many variations on the idea. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Mar 12 21:20:56 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:20:56 -0700 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5EAF08.10007@mail.msu.edu> On 3/12/2012 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar >>> make? I always thought they looked cool. >> Planar amber EL panels are nice (I have an ELT320), but I don't think >> they ever scaled that down to the 1-line size like some of intelligent >> LED displays. They probably didn't need to move into the range that >> VFDs have occupied very successfully, if I had to guess. >> > What about the Panaplex 7-segemnt gas discharge displays? > I love those. I have an old Heathkit digital clock that uses three separate Panaplex displays (two digits each) to display the time. And then I have this: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg Which is the same idea, only larger and with 8 digits. (The beer is there to provide a size reference :)). The digits are 4" high. The display unit itself came from some sort of industrial controller and came with an Intel microcontroller and built-in powersupply. I reverse-engineered the circuits driving the display and now have it running off an AVR microcontroller, which I've programmed to run the display as a clock (and why not.) Displays in octal, decimal, and hexadecimal as well as "seconds elapsed this year" mode. I also threw this together recently from some DL-1416 16-segment displays I had in a parts bin: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/16-segment.jpg I have two plasma displays I need to find a good use for, one is a 20 character dot-matrix character display, the other is 40x8 characters. I have specs for both and have gotten them to light up and do my bidding, but I need to figure out what I want to do with them. Probably another clock or two :). - Josh From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Mar 12 21:33:56 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: HP 13232C cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Mar 2012, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Mike Loewen > wrote: >> >> ? Does anyone have a spare 13232C (02640-60059) cable to sell? ?I can build >> one, but thought I'd check here, first. >> > > Which cable is that? Card edge connector on the terminal side and > what on the other side? A DB25 connector? Another card edge connector > for an HP-1000 interface? Card edge for a 264X async terminal board, and a DB25F on the other end. Page 33 in the Terminal Cable Handbook: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/5957-9918_terminalCableHbk.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 12 23:15:57 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:15:57 -0700 Subject: Displays (Was: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) Message-ID: I love the TIL-311's. I used them to make a display for a microcode ROM dump fixture for Wang 700-series calculators. Having the latch, decoder, and LED display all in one package made the whole thing a lot easier to build. Plus, the display just look cool. Desktop electronic calculators used just about every kind of display technology there was beginning with the Burroughs (and licensees) Nixie tube. Here I list some of them, and some examples (some of which can be found on the Old Calculator Museum website, http://oldcalculatormuseum.com). Nixie tubes were extremely popular in the early days, beginning with the first electronic calculator (Sumlock/Anita Mk 7 & 8), and lasting into the mid-1970's. The SCM Marchant-I "handheld" electronic calculator used Nixie tubes...the only "portable" electronic calculator that I know of that did this. There were also the unusual Nixie-like displays, where a number of digits worth of Nixies were combined into a single tube (Lago Calc LC-816). Small vector CRT displays were used on some early desktop calculators (like Friden 130/132, Friden 1160-series, SCM Cogito 240SR, Victor 14-32x series, and HP 9100A/B, with a few others) , and were very cool. Canon's early electronic calculators (Canon 130, 161, 130S) used edge-lit plastic panels with grain-of-wheat incandescent lamps to light the plastic panel from the edge. The panels had dots etched into them in the shape of digits to catch the light and project it out as numerals to the user. These were abandoned when Canon switched to Nixie tubes, as the edge-lit panel displays were simply too expensive, and tedious to repair when the lamps burned out. As Nixies started to wane in favor of less-expensive display technologies, lots of manufactures went to Burroughs Panaplex panels, which were less expensive, and easier to interface. Lots of machines (of few of which are Wang 600, Commodore US*1/US*8/US*10, Victor 1800-series, Friden 1203) used these panels. A few machines also used tube-type versions of 7-segment gas-discharge displays, such as the Passport CA-850(clone of APF Mark I), and Sperry-made multi-digit gas-discharge modules (Commodore US*14, Tektronix 31). LEDs came on board on some desktop machines (MITS 1440, HP 9800-series), but ended up really being the display of choice for the new up-and coming handheld machines, until VF, and later, LCD displays usurped them. There weren't all that many desktop calculators that ended up using LED displays. VF-style tube displays also took over in desktop and some handheld machines as the reign of gas-discharge tubes and panels came to an end. There was some interesting VF tubes, most notably, the Japanese Iseden-made Itron tubes that had a unique segment rendition to make digits look more "handwritten". These were first used on Sharp's QT-8D calculator, which was the second (though the first successful) electronic calculator to use a MOS/LSI chipset for all of the calculating logic (with the much earlier Victor 3900 actually claiming the title of first, but there were some major problems with the machine that led to low production figures, and many of the machines being recalled). These displays were different enough to make them engaging. Sharp used them on quite a number of desktop and "handheld" (EL-8, EL-8M) machines. Alas, the days of these displays is pretty much gone. LCD and VF panels have replaced them all in calculators, as well as all kinds of other stuff like kitchen appliances, gas pumps (for a long time gas pumps used really large Beckman gas-discharge displays), instrumentation, copiers, audio equipment, and just about everything else that needs a display. Though not used in any calculator that I'm aware of, the Burroughs "Self-Scan" displays, which were gas-discharge dot-matrix displays that used fancy manufacturing techniques to build the shift register that held the state of the dots into the display elements themselves (essentially a planar version of an old Dekatron tube). Data would be clocked into the display and it automatically shifted as the dots were being shifted in, and when static, no refreshing was required. These were used for in displays for early electronic point-of-sale cash registers that would display information about the item as well as the price. They were also used a lot in some early portable data terminals (with a few lines of perhaps 20 characters each). They were also quite popular in Computer Numerical Control (CNC) controllers for displays showing the status of the machine. They significantly reduced the complexity of making a device with a flexible alphanumeric (or even simple graphic) display. These, too, met their end when VF and later, LCD dot matrix displays replaced them. Displays have always been an interest for me, and dovetails well into my calculator fixation. Rick Bensene From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 08:11:15 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 08:11:15 -0500 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5EAF08.10007@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F5EAF08.10007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F5F4773.5000507@gmail.com> On 03/12/2012 09:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 3/12/2012 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> What about the neat-looking amber electroluminescent panels that Planar >>>> make? I always thought they looked cool. >>> Planar amber EL panels are nice (I have an ELT320), but I don't think >>> they ever scaled that down to the 1-line size like some of intelligent >>> LED displays. They probably didn't need to move into the range that >>> VFDs have occupied very successfully, if I had to guess. >>> >> What about the Panaplex 7-segemnt gas discharge displays? >> > > I love those. I have an old Heathkit digital clock that uses three separate > Panaplex displays (two digits each) to display the time. I think that (the displays) might be what I have a bunch of; they're gas-discharge and have a nice orange glow to them, anyway. I've got a few doubles, some singles, and also a few that are smaller (more like 5/8" in height rather than 1") > I also threw this together recently from some DL-1416 16-segment displays I > had in a parts bin: *thank you*! I was trying to write a reply to Henk and wanted to mention those, but I couldn't recall the type number (I actually had the 1416 bit, and thought there may have been a 'D' prefix, but I'd forgotten about the 'L'). I've got a few (4 or 5) of them, but have never powered them up or seen any working as I never had any documentation for them. Is the pinkish glow in your photo how they actually appear? They look really nice if so! > I have two plasma displays I need to find a good use for, one is a 20 > character dot-matrix character display, the other is 40x8 characters. I > have specs for both and have gotten them to light up and do my bidding, but > I need to figure out what I want to do with them. Probably another clock or > two :). I have one display that IIRC is organized as 80x1 chars (each cell is 9x5 pixels I think), but again I've never found documentation on how to drive the thing. That one ran with a green color (it came out of a late '70s machine, driven by a nice ceramic TMS9900 CPU) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 09:14:14 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:14:14 -0400 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > My faves: > > Flip-dots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display Love those. Never found a way to make them affordably and never ran across a panel to re-use. > Edge illuminated numeric displays (link shows a modern version... the old ones used grain of wheat lamps): http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/18/edge-lit-led-nixie-tube-display/ Those are really fun. I did some experiments with acrylic and a mill a while back, but now, I'd probably try it with a small table-top CNC. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 13 08:17:49 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 06:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Those are really fun. I did some experiments with acrylic and a mill > a while back, but now, I'd probably try it with a small table-top CNC. > You'd get a better result using a laser. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 10:51:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:51:51 -0400 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Those are really fun. ?I did some experiments with acrylic and a mill >> a while back, but now, I'd probably try it with a small table-top CNC. >> > You'd get a better result using a laser. I thought of that, but I also figured that the conical nature of the hole left behind from a bit would catch the light better than a roughened surface etched by a laser. I do have access to a laser cutter, but I pay an hourly fee to use it. Rastering several square inches costs me more than lunch money. It's cheap to cut things out with vector cuts, but rastering (for letters, logos, etc) can easily double the bill because of the number of passes it takes to sweep over the area. I had one project recently where the cut time was 3 minutes, but the text on the item took 7 additional minutes. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:49:21 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:49:21 +0100 Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5EAF08.10007@mail.msu.edu> <4F5F4773.5000507@gmail.com> References: <4F5EAF08.10007@mail.msu.edu> <4F5F4773.5000507@gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:11 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays > On 03/12/2012 09:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 3/12/2012 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: [... snip ...] > >> I also threw this together recently from some DL-1416 16-segment displays >> I >> had in a parts bin: > > *thank you*! I was trying to write a reply to Henk and wanted to mention > those, but I couldn't recall the type number (I actually had the 1416 bit, > and thought there may have been a 'D' prefix, but I'd forgotten about the > 'L'). > > I've got a few (4 or 5) of them, but have never powered them up or seen > any working as I never had any documentation for them. Is the pinkish glow > in your photo how they actually appear? They look really nice if so! [... snip ...] Yes, I know the DL1416's ... I have them in the "communications display" of my StarShip. Just looked at that old site ... haven't done anything with it for 10 years now sigh ... (http://home.kpn.nl/tshaj/ncc1701site/ncc1701startpage.html) I am pretty sure to have a picture with the display lit, but can't find it now. The display is in the left side, middle section, the small dark "bar". If you can not find the doc of the DL1416, I can search for it in my StarShip doc. As a technical writer, I *do* document my own stuff, hi. It will be just a few sheets, so I can scan them. - Henk. > cheers > > Jules > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 11:56:59 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:56:59 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals Message-ID: I'm looking for more information on the Teleray series of terminals from Research, Inc. (Note: Teleray is the name of the terminal line, not the name of the company! Although later they referred to themselves as the "Teleray Division" of Research, Inc.) In particular I'm looking for manuals and other documentation. If you have a Teleray terminal and you're looking to get rid of it, I would be interested in purchasing it from you. I know of the following models: Year Model 1971 Teleray 3300 1975 Teleray 3900 1976 Teleray 3811 <1977? Teleray 3541 <1977? Teleray 3741 1977 Teleray 3841 1977 Teleray 4041 1978 Teleray 1061 1979 Teleray 10 1979 Teleray 11 1979 Teleray 12 1980 Teleray 14 <1981? Teleray 100 1982 Teleray 16 1985 Teleray 20-7305 <1990? Teleray 30 Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 13 09:42:48 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I thought of that, but I also figured that the conical nature of the > hole left behind from a bit would catch the light better than a > roughened surface etched by a laser. I do have access to a laser > cutter, but I pay an hourly fee to use it. Rastering several square > inches costs me more than lunch money. It's cheap to cut things out > with vector cuts, but rastering (for letters, logos, etc) can easily > double the bill because of the number of passes it takes to sweep over > the area. > > I had one project recently where the cut time was 3 minutes, but the > text on the item took 7 additional minutes. > Ye gods man, how much are they charging you to use the laser? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 13 12:33:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:33:57 -0700 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4F5F2295.4361.38B380@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2012 at 7:42, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I had one project recently where the cut time was 3 minutes, but the > > text on the item took 7 additional minutes. > > > Ye gods man, how much are they charging you to use the laser? That's strange--I would have thought that the best tool for the job would be AJM (micro-bead blasting) --good for temperature-sensitive stuff such as acrylic and leaves a finely-textured surface. You might be able to do it with an ordinary sandblasting rig. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:37:25 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:37:25 -0400 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I thought of that, but I also figured that the conical nature of the >> hole left behind from a bit would catch the light better than a >> roughened surface etched by a laser.... >> >> I had one project recently where the cut time was 3 minutes, but the >> text on the item took 7 additional minutes. >> > Ye gods man, how much are they charging you to use the laser? We pay $35/hr station-time which includes the entire time we are setting up materials, adjusting settings, and laser-on time. The other billing model I know of is laser on-time. NYC Resistor (the hackerspace in Brooklyn that spawned MakerBot Industries) charges $2 per minute of laser on-time, for comparison. One raster-only job I did was etching aluminum tags. 12 tags took 15 minutes of laser-on-time to scribble text on. Mixed projects (like enclosures for Adafruit clocks) take 15 minutes of laser time to cut out the parts and another 15-20 minutes to raster the text. Add another 15 minutes to set up the machine, position and remove the materials and we're at 30 minutes for simple jobs. If I wanted to make some replica KMG display digits that are 1"x2", one set of 10 is approx 20 sq in of rastering and somewhere around 48" of cuts. For 3mm acrylic, the etching will take at least 10 min and the cuts under 5 minutes. That puts the production cost of the acrylic portion of each digit over $1 to which is added the enclosure and a PCB and probably 20 SMT LEDs. Rough guess is $25 in tools and materials to make one 0-9 digit display. The CNC rents for less and could more quickly make line of 1/2-depth holes than a laser rastering over the entire face of the digits doing multiple passes to etch to depth (the laser would be faster on a single pass, probably, but I don't think it would produce good results in one pass - you can only etch so much at once). One does not have to rent much time before an inexpensive Chinese-made laser cutter starts to become economical for hobby work. Cost of entry is around $1000 and there's more fiddling than with a $10K Epilog, but if it's not about minimizing minutes to be profitable, and the tasks at hand fit the lower power and smaller bed of a cheap cutter, for 30 hours of station time or 8 hours of laser-on time, one can rent a good machine or buy a cheap machine outright. I know this opens up the perpetual can-of-worms about good tools vs cheap tools, but a good tool in this case costs 10X what a cheap tool does. It might or might not deliver 10X the reward. It certainly isn't 10X faster if time is a factor. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:40:41 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:40:41 -0400 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: <4F5F2295.4361.38B380@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F5F2295.4361.38B380@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Mar 2012 at 7:42, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > I had one project recently where the cut time was 3 minutes, but the >> > text on the item took 7 additional minutes. >> > >> Ye gods man, how much are they charging you to use the laser? > > That's strange--I would have thought that the best tool for the job > would be AJM (micro-bead blasting) --good for temperature-sensitive > stuff such as acrylic and leaves a finely-textured surface. > > You might be able to do it with an ordinary sandblasting rig. That might produce very nice results - CNC some masks from thin aluminum or even steel, then use either pre-cut glass or acrylic digit blanks in a jig, and give them a quick blast to etch the dots. If I had access to a bead blaster, I'd try it. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 13 13:12:42 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:12:42 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > I'm looking for more information on the Teleray series of terminals > from Research, Inc. (Note: Teleray is the name of the terminal line, > not the name of the company! Although later they referred to > themselves as the "Teleray Division" of Research, Inc.) I don't have any docs or terminals, but I used Teleray terminals at a university in the mid-1980s. I'm not sure which model, but it was reportedly 6502-based, and had some kind of hacked firmware installed. I don't know anything about the precise nature of the hack; it apparently it was not just a local hack, but was relatively widely used by Arpanet sites. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Mar 13 13:13:35 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:13:35 -0700 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: I found this while perusing old Computerworld editions. It is dated June 14, 1972. http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg Rick Bensene From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 13 13:24:03 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:24:03 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> References: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F5F90C3.3020700@brouhaha.com> I wrote about Teleray terminals: > I'm not sure which model, but it was reportedly 6502-based, and had > some kind of hacked firmware installed. I don't know anything about > the precise nature of the hack; it apparently it was not just a local > hack, but was relatively widely used by Arpanet sites. Found it. It was a 1061, and the firmware wasn't the stock firmware, but the modified version actually was from Research Inc., commissioned by the University of Utah as described in the Usenet article below. If I had a 1061, I'd certainly want this firmware! Eric Aucbvax.4490 fa.info-terms utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!info-terms Fri Oct 16 00:36:01 1981 New Version of Teleray ucode available From FRANK at UTAH-20 Thu Oct 15 22:04:32 1981 We commisioned Research Inc. to develop a new set of ucode for the Teleray 1061, which is now available. It is referred to a Special Feature 720 (ARPANET version), and comes on five 2708s proms, as well as requiring some trace changes on the main PC board. Main improvements are: 1) retains all the features of the current "Arpa" ucode (meta key, down line loadable fcn keys). 2) massive speed up in I/D line. With the preliminary measurements that I have made, it require only two nulls at 9600 for the worst case I/D line. This is accomplished by a line map, which is modified for I/D line instead of actually moving lines in memory. The speed-up amounts to a 25:1 improvement in I/D line performance. 3) Definable scrolling window (a la VT100). One can now set a window beginning at one line and ending at another, and scrolling only takes place within that window. 4) The numeric key pad is now soft - the keys correspond to prog. fcns 21-32. 5) A new escape sequence will now clear just the prog. fcns - previously you had to reset the terminal in order to clear the fcn keys. 6) Status line: pressing "shift rubout" display a status line with baud rate, scrolling window limits, etc, overwriting (temporarily) the 24th line. 7) On reset, tabs come up in the position that DEC operating systems assume they'll come up in. My understanding is that an upgrade kit with instructions for modifying the pc board, as well as a new set of ucode, can be ordered from Teleray. Give Dennis Stollenwork at Teleray a phone call for more info on the upgrade kit. I don't have the particulars; we basically got one terminal with the changes and are now in the process of retrofitting all of our others. Randy ------- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 13:30:45 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:30:45 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> References: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4F5F8E1A.8090508 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > I don't have any docs or terminals, but I used Teleray terminals at a > university in the mid-1980s. I'm not sure which model, but it was > reportedly 6502-based, and had some kind of hacked firmware installed. This one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Mar 13 13:36:21 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Rick Bensene wrote: > I found this while perusing old Computerworld editions. It is dated > June 14, 1972. > http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg Last week I discovered that Penn State University also acquired one of the guidance computers. A member of our Chemistry Department was in the MCUG, and I found this in a Daily Collegian newspaper article from May 25, 1971 (about our Surplus Warehouse): "The Surplus Warehouse also aids the departments by purchasing government surplus equipment for them at low prices. For example, the Warehouse recently acquired from the government a computer which was part of the guidance system of the Minuteman Missile. The original cost to the government was approximately $82,500 while the cost to the University was only $500." I'll do a little more digging and try to find some more information about it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 13:38:21 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:38:21 -0700 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4F5F941D.3090208@gmail.com> Interesting. I wonder if a FOIA request might dig up all the documents on this program and where they all ended up. Paperwork should all still be somewhere. Make for an interesting article or museum exhibit. On 3/13/2012 11:13 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I found this while perusing old Computerworld editions. It is dated > June 14, 1972. > http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg > > Rick Bensene > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 15:37:41 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:37:41 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <4F5F90C3.3020700@brouhaha.com> References: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> <4F5F90C3.3020700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote about Teleray terminals: > >> I'm not sure which model, but it was reportedly 6502-based, and had some >> kind of hacked firmware installed. Are there any photos of the PCBs out there? I have a small box of what appear to be 6502-based terminal boards with lots of socketed TTL. I do not know the vendor, but I can look for distinctive markings. I never had the terminals. I just picked up a box of "random" boards from a Hamfest some time ago. I don't think that many terminals used a 6502, but admittedly, my experience with DEC terminals is far greater than 3rd party terminals. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 15:41:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:41:15 -0600 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > I found this while perusing old Computerworld editions. It is dated > June 14, 1972. > http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg Direct link: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Mar 13 15:51:33 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:51:33 +0000 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/13/12 7:14 AM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> My faves: >> >> Flip-dots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display > >Love those. Never found a way to make them affordably and never ran >across a panel to re-use. > >> Edge illuminated numeric displays (link shows a modern version... the >>old ones used grain of wheat lamps): >>http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/18/edge-lit-led-nixie-tube-display/ > >Those are really fun. I did some experiments with acrylic and a mill >a while back, but now, I'd probably try it with a small table-top CNC. > >-ethan > > Years ago I had a rack-mount DVM - I think it was HP - that used the edge-lit displays. They were really crisp, if a little slow. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 15:21:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:21:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: <2D007328-9B03-4F18-B91D-3CC149E585BA@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 12, 12 10:40:42 pm Message-ID: > > > > So you're making the claim that the file formats are fully open,=20 > > fully documented, and anyone can extract the data at any time,=20 > > regardless of the status of KryoFlux Ltd? > > Hi Dave, > > yes - that was the intention of putting the source up there. The old = > licence will be tidied up more and more, but again, to make something = > available now, the IPF source was released with a very short and = > permissive licence. I think your licence needs work. The licence I read suggests that the source code is essentially provided for interst only, and that anything dependant on it, or dependant on the documentation, is covered by said licence. > > I would also like to point out that there's a very informative = > third-party website around that's run by Jean Louis-Guerin. He's helping = > with seeing things from the user side. You tend to become blind for the = > obvious when you do things for a long time. > > http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/devices/kryoflux.php > > > There's much free info there, and it also has another document on the = > STREAM format produced by KryoFlux. Someone mentioned he'd regard the = > file format as documentation (which would then be covered by the = > licence), so here's an independent source: Howeve, I am sure tht could be taken to be a derriveative work, and as such covered in parrt by the licence in question. I know you don't intend that, but it is not at all clear how a future owner of your technology could react. I';d certainly want things a lot clearer before I made use of the STRAM formet. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 15:24:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:24:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tychon Board In-Reply-To: from "Win Heagy" at Mar 12, 12 05:43:56 pm Message-ID: > > Can anyone identify this board? I got it with a bunch of old TRS-80 > hardware, but it's not necessarily related. It says "Designed by the > Blacksburg Group Copyright 1979 TYCHON". Any ideas? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheagy/6977334853/in/photostream I am going to guess that it is soemthing to do with TRS-80s. In particualr, that 50 way ribbon cable looks like it might plug into a Model 3/4 I/O bus. The appropriate signals then appear (after buffering I guess) on those turned-pin sockets, there is possibly soem address decoding on the board too. The unpopualted area on the left looks to be a regualted PSU, probbly 5V. Nd of course there's the solderless breadboard. I think it's a thing to develop interfaces, etc on. Build your bit of circuitry o nthe breadbord, then linkm it to the TRS-80 signals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 15:51:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:51:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Displays (Was: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 12, 12 09:15:57 pm Message-ID: > Nixie tubes were extremely popular in the early days, beginning with the > first electronic calculator (Sumlock/Anita Mk 7 & 8), and lasting into > the mid-1970's. The SCM Marchant-I "handheld" electronic calculator > used Nixie tubes...the only "portable" electronic calculator that I know > of that did this. There were also the unusual Nixie-like displays, Somewhere I haevw a portable (battery-powered, but a bit too large to hold in a hand) 4-banger with individiul 7-segment gas discharge display tubes. Not really nixies, of course. > where a number of digits worth of Nixies were combined into a single > tube (Lago Calc LC-816). [...] > As Nixies started to wane in favor of less-expensive display > technologies, lots of manufactures went to Burroughs Panaplex panels, > which were less expensive, and easier to interface. Lots of machines > (of few of which are Wang 600, Commodore US*1/US*8/US*10, Victor > 1800-series, Friden 1203) used these panels. HP9815 too. Although HP used nixie tubes in amy of their digital instruments, AFAIK there was never an HP calcualtor that used them for the display. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 15:29:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:29:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: <4F5E9A58.4010801@gmail.com> from "Rob Doyle" at Mar 12, 12 05:52:40 pm Message-ID: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg > > > > Ceramic base, glass top, hermetically sealed, built like a tank, and > > absolutely gorgeous. > > > > -Dave > > > > I have 4x 5082-7100 displays. Similar except 3 digits per package. > I'm waiting for the right project to use them. I;'ev got a similar-construction 2-character 5*7 dot matrix module in the spares box (no internal decoder electronics, just LEDs). I also have a totalty of 12 4-character dot matrix LED modules, but they're in use (84 i nthe HP9820, 8 in the HP9830). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 13 15:34:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:34:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Mar 12, 12 09:02:49 pm Message-ID: > Edge illuminated numeric displays (link shows a modern version... the > old ones used grain of wheat lamps): > http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/18/edge-lit-led-nixie-tube-display/ > Ah yes, I have a DVM somewhere that uses those... O also have a Trend datacomms tester (essentially a bit error data tester) with the largest number of different display devices on one panel that I've ever seen. From memory, there is : A mechancial slow motion drive/scale for the variable capacitor (!) to set the baud rate (you might not call that a display device though) Assrorted coloured filamant lamps for varions status signals A row of white filamanet lamps displaying a 10 bit error counter (in binary). The overflow of this counter is counted by an electromechanicla digital couter (I forget if 'overflow' is every 1000 counts or every 1024 counts). A pair of those edge-lit displayu for soemthing-or-other A centre-zero moving coil (analogue) meter to display signal bias. -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Mar 13 16:33:38 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:33:38 +0000 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/13/12 1:51 PM, "Ian King" wrote: >On 3/13/12 7:14 AM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >>On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> My faves: >>> >>> Flip-dots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display >> >>Love those. Never found a way to make them affordably and never ran >>across a panel to re-use. >> >>> Edge illuminated numeric displays (link shows a modern version... the >>>old ones used grain of wheat lamps): >>>http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/18/edge-lit-led-nixie-tube-display/ >> >>Those are really fun. I did some experiments with acrylic and a mill >>a while back, but now, I'd probably try it with a small table-top CNC. >> >>-ethan >> >> > >Years ago I had a rack-mount DVM - I think it was HP - that used the >edge-lit displays. They were really crisp, if a little slow. -- Ian http://www.hp9825.com/html/dvms.html has some history, but ISTR mine was 4-1/2 digit. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 16:41:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:41:09 -0400 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2012 04:51 PM, Ian King wrote: > Years ago I had a rack-mount DVM - I think it was HP - that used the > edge-lit displays. They were really crisp, if a little slow. -- Ian I don't know of any rackmount DVMs by HP that used those displays; nearly all used Nixie tubes. Might it have been by NLS, perhaps? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cb at kryoflux.com Tue Mar 13 16:56:00 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:56:00 +0100 Subject: SPS licence (was: Re:Discferret broken?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74119234-E7C1-4E1B-958E-ADC10685A73E@kryoflux.com> Hi David, > The best (and probably the only effective) way to prevent distribution > of forged images are signing them with GnuPG, or providing a list of > SHA-1 (or better, MD5 can be forged too easily) checksums of known > good images. Otherwise, anyone can tamper with images, even with a > simple hex editor. > Yes, that's something that's on the list for some time now. The official lib will come with the hashes for all 4,000 releases "out in the wild", new ones will be signed. Back in the day simply keeping it closed was easier, quicker, and also did the job. I understand that being open has to do with trust, hence the lib was opened as promised. > > In this field of data preservation, the only way we'll actually be > able to get things done successfully and actually preserve the most > history is by working together. Sure this might cut into the profits > of some, but if the goal is profits (or even amassing a large private > collection), then you're in the wrong business. > To give you a brief sum up of what has happened since 2001: The project / org was founded by a programmer (Istv?n F?bi?n) that was so upset about only pirated, obfuscated copies of his games being in circulation that he tried to submit the games to some project that would care about storing true and unmodified original mastering data. There was none, so CAPS (The Classic Amiga Preservation Society) was born. F?bi?n developed a toolchain that would allow for using an Amiga 1200 (which has a special floppy controller; actually none) as the ingestion device. This data would then be processed and stored as IPF files. Over the years the toolchain and the number games preserved grew. The project was renamed to SPS (The Software Preservation Society) as it became evident that other platforms had the same (no mastering data being preserved) problem. It also became evident that the Amiga as the ingestion device won't be around forever. It is a dying platform. Hence other technology was inspected but no solution satisfied our needs (capturing unprocessed flux changes as delivered by the drive). By 2008 the project had spent more than EUR 50.000 on buying games; most of this money was donated by project members. Please consider: There are a few games you care about personally, but you pretty quickly reach the point where you have acquired all games that matter to you? In 2009 we picked up the Cyclone20 project by Rich Aplin. Rich and me worked for Cachet back in the day and Rich was the inventor of the original Cyclone (a duplication tool that would force feed data read to the target drive). Rich had lost interest so we decided to develop the proof of concept to something usable. It took us about 1,5 years to redesign everything and to move from prototype to production status. Just for the record? until then we only had gotten very few donations for SPS which were spent on - you might have guessed it - buying and preserving games. The digital assets produced are given to libraries, museums and back to the original contributors. Some of these also share the images. Something we can't do ourselves without jeopardising the project. When KryoFlux was ready we decided to sell it trough a company, to protect ourselves (things can go wrong, people can try to sue, etc. - you don't want to risk your personal life for a hobby) and to give this thing a legal basis to build upon. When you sell hundreds of boards, regardless of your margin, you better are registered for electronics recycling and you better pay tax. The money earned is intended to pay for the expenses, but also help establish SPS as an NPO, and of course? help buying more games. In Japan, gamepres, run by one of our members, was already accepted as an NPO. Because of this, KryoFlux was never made because we thought it was a cool thing to sell, it was and still is the tool we needed and we made it happen after several others said they could / would, but never did. I have no idea when I really spent an evening on playing a classic game? > Concerning SPS, I think the fact that only game dumps are accepting is > rather telling. There is a load of software, for Amiga and other > platforms, which is at least as important to preserve. The other day I > talked to a former Amiga game developer, who mentioned that Digi-Paint > was used heavily in game development. I managed to locate a copy, but > it appears that software like this, which may be important to play > around with art assets included in games, does not fall into the kind > of materials that SPS is interested in. > It for sure does. But when you are a group of five or less, you have to focus on something. Games came with high profile protection techniques. These can't be stored by standard sector dumps. It was therefore decided to focus on the most precious stuff and hope that others would do the more easy part. But we always took dumps of apps when we could get them, and we still do. We e.g. have various versions of DPaint. A quick look in the archive shows we have 2-5, physically and digitally. > I may be wrong about this, but in regards to preserving this stuff, > personally I'd trust an open, helpful group like BitSavers much more > than a private group interested in selling their products. Maybe the above helps explain things? It's odd, but things become really complicated once money is in the game. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 13 17:05:58 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:05:58 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: References: <4F5F8E1A.8090508@brouhaha.com> <4F5F90C3.3020700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I don't think that many terminals used a 6502, but admittedly, my > experience with DEC terminals is far greater than 3rd party terminals. At least a couple of terminals used the 6502; I'm assuming because it was cheaper than other 8 bit microprocessors. AED 1024 (and 512 as well, I believe) for one, TeleVideo 925 for another. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 13 18:47:42 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:47:42 -0700 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> References: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C445D79-4462-4534-9FC3-FF398DE7A531@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 13, at 2:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/13/2012 04:51 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Years ago I had a rack-mount DVM - I think it was HP - that used the >> edge-lit displays. They were really crisp, if a little slow. -- Ian > > I don't know of any rackmount DVMs by HP that used those > displays; nearly all used Nixie tubes. Might it have been by NLS, > perhaps? Or General Radio - they used edge-lit displays in some test equipment. HP had 1-of-10 'thermometer-style' displays in the 50s and early-60s but started switching to NIXIEs quite early (1959 or earlier). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 13 19:18:54 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:18:54 -0700 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> References: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49F53788-D381-491E-B534-6C0DC63FC421@cs.ubc.ca> Edge-lit displays in action - James Bond Goldfinger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDDjxa7RsKg 2:18, 3:08, 3:48. IIRC there was a slightly longer sequence showing them, later in the scene as he defuses the bomb. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 19:23:09 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:23:09 -0400 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: <4C445D79-4462-4534-9FC3-FF398DE7A531@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> <4C445D79-4462-4534-9FC3-FF398DE7A531@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Or General Radio - they used edge-lit displays in some test equipment. NLS and General Radio are the ones that spring to mind, but there were some military units that could have been HP. AN/TSM-16 maybe. > HP had 1-of-10 'thermometer-style' displays in the 50s and early-60s but > started switching to NIXIEs quite early (1959 or earlier). I think they bought that technology? I can not remember who now - I almost want to say from Beckman. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 13 19:31:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:31:28 -0700 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: <4C445D79-4462-4534-9FC3-FF398DE7A531@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com>, <4C445D79-4462-4534-9FC3-FF398DE7A531@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F5F8470.12549.1B6F24C@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Mar 2012 at 16:47, Brent Hilpert wrote: > HP had 1-of-10 'thermometer-style' displays in the 50s and early-60s > but started switching to NIXIEs quite early (1959 or earlier). I recall some Nixie-like (neon) bargraph displays on some Honeywell mainframes. I don't know if they were made by Burroughs or not. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 13 19:45:43 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:45:43 -0700 Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 displays) In-Reply-To: References: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> <4C445D79-4462-4534-9FC3-FF398DE7A531@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2012 Mar 13, at 5:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Or General Radio - they used edge-lit displays in some test >> equipment. > > NLS and General Radio are the ones that spring to mind, but there were > some military units that could have been HP. AN/TSM-16 maybe. > >> HP had 1-of-10 'thermometer-style' displays in the 50s and >> early-60s but >> started switching to NIXIEs quite early (1959 or earlier). > > I think they bought that technology? I can not remember who now - I > almost want to say from Beckman. There were several manufacturers in the 50s (HP, Northeastern, I think you're right: Beckman, others?) making neon decade counter/ display modules based on a design from RCA from the mid-40's. I have several versions of the modules (http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/ HP520/index.html#AC4) and equipment using them, another list member provided a ref for the original RCA design in a list discussion a couple of years ago. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 13 20:08:01 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gopher help Message-ID: Does anyone here know where the pygopherd mailing list lives now? I tried gopher-request at complete.org and it bounced back. I'm trying to figure out how to make it such that the entire filename is shown, extension included. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Mar 13 20:22:27 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:22:27 -0400 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> Here's the photo of them working on it. http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710 Rob On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I found this while perusing old Computerworld editions. It is dated > June 14, 1972. > http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg > > Rick Bensene > > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 13 20:29:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gopher help In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Mar 13, 12 06:08:01 pm" Message-ID: <201203140129.q2E1TiDN8388844@floodgap.com> > Does anyone here know where the pygopherd mailing list lives now? I tried > gopher-request at complete.org and it bounced back. I'm trying to figure out > how to make it such that the entire filename is shown, extension included. Try gopher-project-request at lists.alioth.debian.org -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. ----------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 20:50:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:50:37 -0400 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2012 09:22 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Here's the photo of them working on it. > > http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710 Yay longhairs! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 21:15:18 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (DC) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:15:18 -0700 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F5FFF36.1030709@gmail.com> It looks like they were forced to work out of a janitor's closet in the basement. Apparently, that project wasn't very important to MIT. Wood top holding a fan. Looks like they even have more than just the computer. Could it be the power supply unit below it ? On 3/13/2012 6:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yay longhairs! ;) > > -Dave > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Mar 13 21:47:55 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 02:47:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/13/2012 09:22 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> Here's the photo of them working on it. >> >> http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710 > > Yay longhairs! ;) That jumped out at me too. The people in all the other photos have "normal" haircuts, and here's a couple of heads repurposing a missle guidance computer for peaceful uses :-) Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 21:53:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:53:00 -0400 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F60080C.5010700@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2012 10:47 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> Here's the photo of them working on it. >>> >>> http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710 >> >> Yay longhairs! ;) > > That jumped out at me too. The people in all the other photos have > "normal" haircuts, and here's a couple of heads repurposing a missle > guidance computer for peaceful uses :-) Those *are* the guys with normal haircuts! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 13 21:54:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:54:29 -0400 Subject: Minuteman Computer In-Reply-To: <4F5FFF36.1030709@gmail.com> References: <1330815838.72039.YahooMailClassic@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F546D3F.4070003@gmail.com> <11E58BB7-C9A7-489E-BE06-A3192B673AB8@cs.ubc.ca> <20120310171330.GA7719@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <5BB96A1A-D051-4331-98E6-615B09434327@colourfull.com> <4F5FF96D.2050406@neurotica.com> <4F5FFF36.1030709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F600865.3000202@neurotica.com> On 03/13/2012 10:15 PM, DC wrote: > It looks like they were forced to work out of a janitor's closet in the > basement. Apparently, that project wasn't very important to MIT. Wood > top holding a fan. Looks like they even have more than just the > computer. Could it be the power supply unit below it ? MIT is full of "little nooks and crannies" like that. It could've been that they (or their prof) didn't have "official" blessing (i.e., budget) to work on it, so they "found some space". Ya do what ya gotta do. I'd just about kill to have one of those to hack on, just for the challenge of it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cb at kryoflux.com Wed Mar 14 02:05:38 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:05:38 +0100 Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73D8033C-4FD1-4EEE-9B8F-820307D08E45@kryoflux.com> > Howeve, I am sure tht could be taken to be a derriveative work, and as > such covered in parrt by the licence in question. I know you don't intend > that, but it is not at all clear how a future owner of your technology > could react. I';d certainly want things a lot clearer before I made use > of the STRAM formet. Hey Tony, no it can't. Jean did not use "the technology". He got the information from us and never signed an agreement, NDA or whatever. If you look at the current rel. 2 of KF 2.0 b9 for the Mac you will find that I already made a quick fix to the definition of derivative works (threw out the formats). This will be refined even further. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 14 10:13:19 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:13:19 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> Research Inc was a company here in MN. Their model 3300 was used quite extensively in schools around the state to access the TIES and MECC timesharing networks that provided computing to grade schools, junior highs and highschools throughout the 70's and 80's. They were almost always paired with a Multi-Tech FM300 or FM30 acoustic coupler (also a MN company). Research Inc main business was process control equipment and it was my understanding that they started making their own CRT terminals for that market. I had a 3300 for many years when I was a kid. I have a manual for it that includes schematics. The CRT in those units was built by Ball Brothers, yet another MN company. They were very heavy but built like a tank. All steel enclosure. The 3300 had no processor of any sort. Was all 7400 TTL and used a 2513 character generator ROM. It was uppercase only and had no cursor control other than and . It was pretty much a glass teletype. Max speed, 1200 baud but switchable to 300 and 110 too. It used 1401 or 1404 shift registers for the display buffer so there was no RAM in it either. I modified mine to add lower case capability with a second 2513 char generator and some additional decoding. There was no way to get decenders on the lowercase letters though so they just floated up a little next to the uppercase chars. But it was like a small miracle to have both upper and lower case right there on _my_ screen. You and I are competing to find one of these terminals. I feel a little bit of pain each time I think about the day I got rid of the one I had. Chris On Tuesday (03/13/2012 at 10:56AM -0600), Richard wrote: > I'm looking for more information on the Teleray series of terminals > from Research, Inc. (Note: Teleray is the name of the terminal line, > not the name of the company! Although later they referred to > themselves as the "Teleray Division" of Research, Inc.) > > In particular I'm looking for manuals and other documentation. If you > have a Teleray terminal and you're looking to get rid of it, I would > be interested in purchasing it from you. > > I know of the following models: > > Year Model > 1971 Teleray 3300 > 1975 Teleray 3900 > 1976 Teleray 3811 > <1977? Teleray 3541 > <1977? Teleray 3741 > 1977 Teleray 3841 > 1977 Teleray 4041 > 1978 Teleray 1061 > 1979 Teleray 10 > 1979 Teleray 11 > 1979 Teleray 12 > 1980 Teleray 14 > <1981? Teleray 100 > 1982 Teleray 16 > 1985 Teleray 20-7305 > <1990? Teleray 30 > > Thanks! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 14 11:14:50 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:14:50 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> References: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Hi Chris, This is great info and I've updated these pages as a result: In article <20120314151319.GA27568 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist writes: > You and I are competing to find one of these terminals. I feel a little > bit of pain each time I think about the day I got rid of the one I had. I have 3 Telerays, as shown here on the bottom: Bottom left is either a 3300 or a later model in a similar case. Bottom right is probably of similar vintage, but I can't remember the model number. Next to bottom, left, is a Teleray 10. I will be down at the warehouse tomorrow and will check the model plates. I am very much interested in having documentation online; the CHM only has a Teleray 11 in their collection: In December, 2007 Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. mentioned that he had a "Teleray TE-10", I don't know if he's still on the list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Mar 14 12:10:21 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 programs Message-ID: I just re-discovered a directory on my server that has Apple 1 or at least 6502 programs in hex dumps and also object code that was apparently "assembled" using a PHP script I guess I wrote at some point in the past that I also found in the directory. I've long forgotten from where they came, and what they are doing there, but while they are there I figure other people should download them, especially Apple-1 tinkerers. Have at it and have fun. http://siconic.com/a1/ NOTE: the files that have a .xxx extension are binary files. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 14 12:47:03 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:47:03 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: References: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120314174703.GJ27568@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/14/2012 at 10:14AM -0600), Richard wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > This is great info and I've updated these pages as a result: > > Cool. I'll try to firm up the facts in the next day or two and report back with any updates. My dad was buddies with one of the senior management at Research Inc. and arranged a tour for me there when I was about 15 I think. I took the model 3300 home with me that day as well as blank PCBs for newer models they had in development. Unfortunately, I no longer have those PCBs but my memory (which is good, just short) suggests that one of them did have a 6502 on it. I remember contemplating how I could source all the parts and build one of them up but I never executed on that plan. > In article <20120314151319.GA27568 at n0jcf.net>, > Chris Elmquist writes: > > > You and I are competing to find one of these terminals. I feel a little > > bit of pain each time I think about the day I got rid of the one I had. > > I have 3 Telerays, as shown here on the bottom: > > > Bottom left is either a 3300 or a later model in a similar case. > Bottom right is probably of similar vintage, but I can't remember the > model number. Next to bottom, left, is a Teleray 10. Yes... the bottom left looks similar to what I remember although mine did not have switches between the keyboard and the display and the display bezel was a 1/4" thick piece of glass that had been painted black on the backside and masked to expose just the viewable part of the CRT. There was no "carrier" indicator on the bezel but there was a pot which adjusted the brightness and was also the on/off switch. The pot stuck through a hole drilled in the glass with a black knob on the outside. There were a few switches on the back... one picked half/full duplex and the other the baud rate... which I seem to remember was just a two position switch and you had to set an internal jumper to chose which speed was assigned to which position-- but it's possible I may have made that mod myself, adding a toggle to the back panel so that I didn't have to keep taking the (heavy) lid off to change speeds. > I will be down at the warehouse tomorrow and will check the model plates. > > I am very much interested in having documentation online; the CHM only > has a Teleray 11 in their collection: > OK. I'll look into scanning what I have. I know where it is on the bookshelf, in a 3-ring binder with Research, Inc. logo on it. > In December, 2007 Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. mentioned that he had a "Teleray > TE-10", I don't know if he's still on the list. They were a neat piece of computing history for me-- especially with the local MN connection. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 14 13:40:23 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:40:23 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <20120314174703.GJ27568@n0jcf.net> References: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> <20120314174703.GJ27568@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Al Kossow just scanned this brochure from the CHM's collection: In article <20120314174703.GJ27568 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist writes: > Cool. I'll try to firm up the facts in the next day or two and report > back with any updates. Sweet. > > In article <20120314151319.GA27568 at n0jcf.net>, > > Chris Elmquist writes: > On Wednesday (03/14/2012 at 10:14AM -0600), Richard wrote: > > I have 3 Telerays, as shown here on the bottom: > > > > > > Bottom left is either a 3300 or a later model in a similar case. > > Yes... the bottom left looks similar to what I remember although mine did > not have switches between the keyboard and the display and the display > bezel was a 1/4" thick piece of glass that had been painted black on > the backside and masked to expose just the viewable part of the CRT. > There was no "carrier" indicator on the bezel but there was a pot which > adjusted the brightness and was also the on/off switch. The pot stuck > through a hole drilled in the glass with a black knob on the outside. This sounds similar to the 3500/3700/3900 depicted in the brochure. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 14 15:23:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:23:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alternate display technologies (was Re: COSMAC Elf 2000 - TIL311 In-Reply-To: <4F5FBEF5.30308@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 13, 12 05:41:09 pm Message-ID: > > Years ago I had a rack-mount DVM - I think it was HP - that used the > > edge-lit displays. They were really crisp, if a little slow. -- Ian > > I don't know of any rackmount DVMs by HP that used those displays; > nearly all used Nixie tubes. Might it have been by NLS, perhaps? I don;t rememebr HP using that type of display either. The one I have is made by Dynamco (not to be confused with Dynaco). It's mostly transsitorised, but with 2 or 3 valves in the input amplifier/comparator (prsumably to provide a high input impedance when FETs were not common). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 14 15:54:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:54:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: <73D8033C-4FD1-4EEE-9B8F-820307D08E45@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 14, 12 08:05:38 am Message-ID: > > > > > Howeve, I am sure tht could be taken to be a derriveative work, and as > > such covered in parrt by the licence in question. I know you don't intend > > that, but it is not at all clear how a future owner of your technology > > could react. I';d certainly want things a lot clearer before I made use > > of the STRAM formet. > > Hey Tony, > > no it can't. Jean did not use "the technology". He got the information > from us and never signed an agreement, NDA or whatever. The licence I read (on the Kryoflux website llast week, probably in the PC distribution) seemed to define 'Technology' as includign the documentation. And I feel that this could well include the file format. I accept it's not your intetnion to limit the file format in this way, but I think the licence needs work... In any case there are many things I can download and read on your website that I can't just use as I like. You licnese specifically prohibts me from revers-engineerign the program, it prevents me using any part of in in a competing product, and so on. I do not have to sign any agreenment or NDA to get that material either. While I may be in favour of 'open' solutions, I am happy to accept that you have the legal and moral right to distribute your work (or not) under whatever licence you choose, and that if I don;t agree to the terms than I don't use your work. Nowehre is it clear to me that the file format does not come under this -tony From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Wed Mar 14 15:56:10 2012 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> References: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1331758570.3188.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Chris - nice post. University of Texas/@Arlington had scads of these for use as glass TTYs, all had the APL character set. They were hooked up to our IBM 370/155 running APL\Plus and WYLBUR. My recollection was that Telerays were a very popular inexpensive APL terminal. Pretty heavy duty also, able to be used by 100s/1000s of student without a hiccup. ? Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals Research Inc was a company here in MN.? Their model 3300 was used quite extensively in schools around the state to access the TIES and MECC timesharing networks that provided computing to grade schools, junior highs and highschools throughout the 70's and 80's.? They were almost always paired with a Multi-Tech FM300 or FM30 acoustic coupler (also a MN company). Research Inc main business was process control equipment and it was my understanding that they started making their own CRT terminals for that market. I had a 3300 for many years when I was a kid.? I have a manual for it that includes schematics. The CRT in those units was built by Ball Brothers, yet another MN company. They were very heavy but built like a tank.? All steel enclosure. The 3300 had no processor of any sort.? Was all 7400 TTL and used a 2513 character generator ROM.? It was uppercase only and had no cursor control other than and .? It was pretty much a glass teletype. Max speed, 1200 baud but switchable to 300 and 110 too. It used 1401 or 1404 shift registers for the display buffer so there was no RAM in it either. I modified mine to add lower case capability with a second 2513 char generator and some additional decoding.? There was no way to get decenders on the lowercase letters though so they just floated up a little next to the uppercase chars.? But it was like a small miracle to have both upper and lower case right there on _my_ screen. You and I are competing to find one of these terminals.? I feel a little bit of pain each time I think about the day I got rid of the one I had. Chris On Tuesday (03/13/2012 at 10:56AM -0600), Richard wrote: > I'm looking for more information on the Teleray series of terminals > from Research, Inc.? (Note: Teleray is the name of the terminal line, > not the name of the company!? Although later they referred to > themselves as the "Teleray Division" of Research, Inc.) > > In particular I'm looking for manuals and other documentation.? If you > have a Teleray terminal and you're looking to get rid of it, I would > be interested in purchasing it from you. > > I know of the following models: > > Year? ? Model > 1971? ? Teleray 3300 > 1975? ? Teleray 3900 > 1976? ? Teleray 3811 > <1977?? Teleray 3541 > <1977?? Teleray 3741 > 1977? ? Teleray 3841 > 1977? ? Teleray 4041 > 1978? ? Teleray 1061 > 1979? ? Teleray 10 > 1979? ? Teleray 11 > 1979? ? Teleray 12 > 1980? ? Teleray 14 > <1981?? Teleray 100 > 1982? ? Teleray 16 > 1985? ? Teleray 20-7305 > <1990?? Teleray 30 > > Thanks! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download >? > >? ? ? Legalize Adulthood! -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 14 16:50:00 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:50:00 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal sources Message-ID: <4F611288.2080107@bitsavers.org> I just uploaded the 9000/200 300 source product floppies to http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/pascal/B3466A/ They are part of the HP donation to CHM of Apollo and 68000 HP 9000 software and may be redistributed for non-commercial educational use. From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Wed Mar 14 17:17:05 2012 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:17:05 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal sources In-Reply-To: <4F611288.2080107@bitsavers.org> References: <4F611288.2080107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, What other Apollo software (if any) did HP donate besides what's already on bitsavers? Did they donate the SR10.4.1 upgrade? My copy of tape 1 of the upgrade seems corrupted. On Mar 14, 2012 2:53 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > I just uploaded the 9000/200 300 source product floppies to > http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/**HP_9000/pascal/B3466A/ > > They are part of the HP donation to CHM of Apollo and 68000 HP 9000 > software > and may be redistributed for non-commercial educational use. > > From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Mar 14 17:53:25 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:53:25 +0000 Subject: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals In-Reply-To: <1331758570.3188.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> <1331758570.3188.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B19@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> The University of Chicago Computation Center deployed Teleray 4041 terminals (VT-52 compatible) to employees' desks. I really liked them, myself. They're what I first learned EMACS on (the real, TECO-based one). Later, after moving into the systems programming group, I had an HDS Concept-108 (_sui generis_) which was OK, but I'd really like to have a couple of 4041's for the museum, to sit beside our Z-19. (Once I moved to LOTS, I learned the dictum, "Never buy a terminal with 'TELE,' 'DATA,' or 'MEDIA' in the name." Funny how many brands that left out. :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Mar 14 18:05:06 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:05:06 +0000 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> We have been trying to get working an LP20 printer interface on our 2065. We discovered just today that the issue we have had with bad control signals was not due to bad boards, but rather was due to the fact that the bottom 4 segments of the Unibus backplane into which the control card plugs have no (0) wires wrapped around the pins. We have the LP20 schematics, but the wiring diagram *for the backplane* is not included. It also is not to be found on microfiche, although there is a reference to it, with document numbers. We are specifically looking for 70-11427, 54-11704, and 50-11703. If anyone has any of these documents, please let us know ASAP. Otherwise, a young EE is going to have to spend time with the complete set of LP20 schematics and a spreadsheet program to generate a wire list and re-wire this thing by guess and by $DEITY, a process that will take several weeks with no guarantee of correctness of result. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 14 18:30:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203142330.TAA04391@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Jean did not use "the technology". He got the information from us >> and never signed an agreement, NDA or whatever. > The licence I read (on the Kryoflux website llast week, probably in > the PC distribution) seemed to define 'Technology' as includign the > documentation. And I feel that this could well include the file > format. So, _if you use that distribution_ - ie, if you get a copy under that license - then it is, or at least may be, restricted. But a copyright holder may release the same information under multiple licenses, and that appears to be what happened here (with the license on the copy released to Jean being an informal and very liberal one). This sort of release of information under an alternative license with few-to-no restrictions is unusual in computers, but that's largely because people who want to release information under liberal terms usually do so from the start. KryoFlux is unusual (very pleasantly unusual, to me, but still unusual) in that they are liberalizing, rather than restricting, their license terms as time goes on. As far as copyright law is concerned, my (lay, not lawyer!) understanding is that you can do the sort of things you want to do just fine, provided you get the information via Jean's copy rather than the one that travels under the SPS license. > I accept it's not your intetnion to limit the file format in this > way, but I think the licence needs work... Yes, and cb@ has said elsewhere in this thread that the license will be brought into better agreement with their intentions soon. That's good to hear, because I've been seeing a lot of dissonance between the license terms and KryoFlux's attitude (to be pedantic, their attitude as described in cb's posts); I'm glad it's the license that will be changing. > In any case there are many things I can download and read on your > website that I can't just use as I like. You licnese specifically > prohibts me from revers-engineerign the program, it prevents me using > any part of in in a competing product, and so on. I do not have to > sign any agreenment or NDA to get that material either. True. But you also do not have to agree to that license. You then have no right to do anything with the copy of the data traveling under that license, but the same data traveling under a more liberal license is, well, under a more liberal license. (I would not blame you a bit if this made no sense to you. Most of copyright law makes little-to-no sense to me.) The only case where I would see any legal issue would be if someone took the restricted version, replaced the license terms without approval of the copyright holder, and started distributing the result. Even then, absent reason for the law's "reasonable man" to suspect this is what had happened, I am inclined to doubt that most jurisdictions would hit good-faith recipients with anything worse than a "stop doing that" order. And, in any case, I see no reason to think that's happened here - quite the opposite, in fact. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:43:19 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:43:19 -0500 Subject: Things available in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <4F612D17.9020406@gmail.com> Hi all, Just wondering if anyone knows of any vintage equipment available in the Minneapolis area? I'll be heading down to Bloomington this coming Saturday for a few days, and - for once - will have a van with me which will have a bit of free space inside (normally on such trips it ends up full to the gills with other stuff :-), so I could potentially pick something up on the Sunday or Monday to bring back with me. I am actually picking up a QX-10 on the way down there, but I think I'll have a bit more room for something else so long as it wasn't too big/heavy. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 14 18:51:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:51:56 -0600 Subject: Terminal brand dictum (was: Wanted: Research Inc. Teleray terminals) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B19@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20120314151319.GA27568@n0jcf.net> <1331758570.3188.YahooMailNeo@web160105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B19@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B19 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson writes: > (Once I moved to LOTS, I learned the dictum, "Never buy a terminal > with 'TELE,' 'DATA,' or 'MEDIA' in the name." Funny how many brands > that left out. :-) What was the reasoning behind this? That basically blocks out: Teleray, Teletec, Teletype, TeleVideo, Datagraphix, Applied Digital Data Systems (ADDS), Datamedia. Probably a few more, but based on my research so far that's what I know of. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 19:22:47 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:22:47 -0500 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Hi Rich, You mentioned the Unibus backplane. Is there a part number on it, or an oprion name? DD11-B, DD11-C, DD11-DK, etc. Thanks,Paul On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > We have been trying to get working an LP20 printer interface on our > 2065. ?We discovered just today that the issue we have had with bad > control signals was not due to bad boards, but rather was due to the > fact that the bottom 4 segments of the Unibus backplane into which > the control card plugs have no (0) wires wrapped around the pins. > > We have the LP20 schematics, but the wiring diagram *for the backplane* > is not included. ?It also is not to be found on microfiche, although > there is a reference to it, with document numbers. ?We are specifically > looking for 70-11427, 54-11704, and 50-11703. > > If anyone has any of these documents, please let us know ASAP. ?Otherwise, > a young EE is going to have to spend time with the complete set of LP20 > schematics and a spreadsheet program to generate a wire list and re-wire > this thing by guess and by $DEITY, a process that will take several weeks > with no guarantee of correctness of result. > > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 14 20:45:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:45:24 -0700 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > You mentioned the Unibus backplane. Is there a part number on it, or > an oprion name? > DD11-B, DD11-C, DD11-DK, etc. That's the problem. What he needs _isn't_ a generic Unibus backplane (technically an SPC backplane), but rather an LP20 backplane. The LP20 backplane has Unibus in and out, but is wired specifically for the LP20. This is the same situation as for backplanes for many Unibus devices such as the MM11-E, RH11, and VT11; they pass Unibus through but are very specialized backplanes that aren't useful for anything else. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:59:55 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:59:55 -0500 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I'm familiar with the various DEC Unibus backplanes, but I'm not a LCG guy. I just wondered it it was in the 11/40 front end. Either way, with a part numder I might find something on fishe. Paul On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> You mentioned the Unibus backplane. Is there a part number on it, or >> an oprion name? >> DD11-B, DD11-C, DD11-DK, etc. > > That's the problem. ?What he needs _isn't_ a generic Unibus backplane > (technically an SPC backplane), but rather an LP20 backplane. ?The LP20 > backplane has Unibus in and out, but is wired specifically for the LP20. > > This is the same situation as for backplanes for many Unibus devices such as > the MM11-E, RH11, and VT11; they pass Unibus through but are very > specialized backplanes that aren't useful for anything else. > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 14 21:13:53 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:13:53 -0700 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F615061.10407@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I'm familiar with the various DEC Unibus backplanes, but I'm not a LCG > guy. I just wondered it it was in the 11/40 front end. Either way, > with a part numder I might find something on fishe. The LP20 backplane is DEC p/n 54-11704. The complete backplane assembly is 70-11590. The complete LP20 wired assembly is 70-11427. IIRC, Rich included those part numbers in his original request. The LP20 does go into an 11/40, but only in a KL10 system. The backplane doesn't have a model number (e.g., DD11-somthing), since it is only a part of the LP20 and not used for anything else. Eric From alkopop79 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:17:57 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:17:57 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > >> > How about the input conditions for the 4013? > > D/9 = 5V > C/11 = 5V, goes to 0V with push of INPUT switch > R/10 = 0V (pulses to 5V for uSecs via 1802 after release of INPUT switch) > > Keeping in mind the output (nQ) of the 4013 will only change (go to 0V) > for a few microseconds. > This bit helped a lot to understand what's going on. Took out the 4013 and tested it on a separate breadboard, worked fine. Put it back and still cannot see anything on pin 12 (*Q*). Tested all the conditions over and over and seems that SC1 does not change after the input button is pressed. On the other hand, if I set the DMA IN pin low, SC1 goes high. Created a somewhat amateurish diagram, green means tested and working, red means doesn't work. I wonder what N2 does. It never seem to change from low state. Thank you for your help in advance! Greg Lorincz From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 11:06:39 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:06:39 -0400 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > This bit helped a lot to understand what's going on. Took out the 4013 and > tested it on a separate breadboard, worked fine. Put it back and still > cannot see anything on pin 12 (*Q*). Tested all the conditions over and > over and seems that SC1 does not change after the input button is pressed. > On the other hand, if I set the DMA IN pin low, SC1 goes high. Created a > somewhat amateurish > diagram, > green means tested and working, red means doesn't work. I wonder what N2 > does. It never seem to change from low state. Thank you for your help in > advance! N2 is one of the "N lines" - they are used to select the correct device for the 6X IN/OUT instructions. One of the neat things about the Elf design is that most of the I/O serves two purposes depending on what the processor is up to. If you are in "LOAD" mode, the input button triggers /DMA_IN pulses that gate in the state of the switches, and the TIL311s latch memory bus data. In "RUN" mode, the toggle switches can be read with an INP 4 instruction and the displays can be written to with OUT 4, and the input button can be sensed on /EF4 with a branch/skip instruction Could you be having a problem with your RUN/LOAD switches so that the processor is _not_ in LOAD state when you think it is? -ethan From alkopop79 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 11:22:30 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:22:30 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: *Could you be having a problem with your RUN/LOAD switches so that the processor is _not_ in LOAD state when you think it is?* Actually, I checked them millions of time by probing the WAIT and CLEAR (pins 2&3 of 1802). In load mode, both of them are low, in run mode they're high and TPA%TPB send timing pulses. Also, the SC0 pin goes high/low as you flip the load and run switches. I cannot think of any other means of testing the run and load switches but they seem to work and the 1802 behaves accordingly. However, the 4013 still doesn't work properly. I have trouble understanding how it works. It seems to me that when the input button is pressed (or released), the Q_ should send a pulse to DMA IN then the SC1 should change its state (since DMA IN's state changed) and send a short pulse back to 4013. In other words, once the Q- output sends a pulse to DMA IN and SC1 sends a pulse in return, which resets the flipflop. Am I right? At the moment SC1 doesn't do a damn thing (since DMA IN doesn't get a pulse). Any ideas? I'm beginning to grow a beard, chain smoke and eat cold leftover from the fridge. Wife's worried and complains. Any help would be appreciated! Greg On 15 March 2012 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Gergely L?rincz > wrote: > > This bit helped a lot to understand what's going on. Took out the 4013 > and > > tested it on a separate breadboard, worked fine. Put it back and still > > cannot see anything on pin 12 (*Q*). Tested all the conditions over and > > over and seems that SC1 does not change after the input button is > pressed. > > On the other hand, if I set the DMA IN pin low, SC1 goes high. Created a > > somewhat amateurish > > diagram< > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r9_0Sc3OKIxotL1IU5hk3dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink > >, > > green means tested and working, red means doesn't work. I wonder what N2 > > does. It never seem to change from low state. Thank you for your help in > > advance! > > N2 is one of the "N lines" - they are used to select the correct > device for the 6X IN/OUT instructions. > > One of the neat things about the Elf design is that most of the I/O > serves two purposes depending on what the processor is up to. If you > are in "LOAD" mode, the input button triggers /DMA_IN pulses that gate > in the state of the switches, and the TIL311s latch memory bus data. > In "RUN" mode, the toggle switches can be read with an INP 4 > instruction and the displays can be written to with OUT 4, and the > input button can be sensed on /EF4 with a branch/skip instruction > > Could you be having a problem with your RUN/LOAD switches so that the > processor is _not_ in LOAD state when you think it is? > > -ethan > > From cb at kryoflux.com Thu Mar 15 12:21:08 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:21:08 +0100 Subject: SPS licence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The licence I read (on the Kryoflux website llast week, probably in the > PC distribution) seemed to define 'Technology' as includign the > documentation. And I feel that this could well include the file format. > That's why I sent the link along to the file format description that's on Jean's site in France. It's for sure not covered by the licence and it's even endorsed by us (we gave Jean the info needed). Apart from that, I will make sure the licence will exclude the format in the future. > I accept it's not your intetnion to limit the file format in this way, > but I think the licence needs work... > Indeed. I jumped aboard in 2009, and many things have happened since then. You can't change things in a day. But it's on the list. > In any case there are many things I can download and read on your website > that I can't just use as I like. You licnese specifically prohibts me > from revers-engineerign the program, it prevents me using any part of in > in a competing product, and so on. I do not have to sign any agreenment > or NDA to get that material either. > > While I may be in favour of 'open' solutions, I am happy to accept that > you have the legal and moral right to distribute your work (or not) under > whatever licence you choose, and that if I don;t agree to the terms than > I don't use your work. Nowehre is it clear to me that the file format > does not come under this As said earlier, no one here wants ownership in data ingested with the device. You can take my word for that and it will be addressed. I am not making this claim to sell anything to you, but because it matters to me. From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 15:13:01 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:13:01 +0100 Subject: Dilog DQ619 - PDP11 Floppy SA450 interface Message-ID: Hello. I acquired a Dilog DQ619 Qbus card for PDP11. It is a Floppy SA450 interface with RX02 emulation. I'm searching for a manual, or for some info about jumper configuration and general usage. Anybody has this board? Thanks Andrea From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 15 16:04:17 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:04:17 -0700 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 15, at 9:22 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > *Could you be having a problem with your RUN/LOAD switches so that the > processor is _not_ in LOAD state when you think it is?* > > Actually, I checked them millions of time by probing the WAIT and > CLEAR > (pins 2&3 of 1802). In load mode, both of them are low, in run mode > they're > high and TPA%TPB send timing pulses. Also, the SC0 pin goes high/ > low as you > flip the load and run switches. I cannot think of any other means of > testing the run and load switches but they seem to work and the 1802 > behaves accordingly. However, the 4013 still doesn't work properly. > I have > trouble understanding how it works. It seems to me that when the input > button is pressed (or released), the Q_ should send a pulse to DMA > IN then > the SC1 should change its state (since DMA IN's state changed) and > send a > short pulse back to 4013. In other words, once the Q- output sends > a pulse > to DMA IN and SC1 sends a pulse in return, which resets the > flipflop. Am I > right? At the moment SC1 doesn't do a damn thing (since DMA IN > doesn't get > a pulse). Any ideas? I'm beginning to grow a beard, chain smoke and > eat > cold leftover from the fridge. Wife's worried and complains. Any > help would > be appreciated! Yes, that's the idea: - The release of the INPUT switch results in a +edge on the 4013 clock (11) - The +edge sends the nQ output (12) low and hence nDMAIN low - the 1802 enters DMA state, sending SC1 high - SC1 high resets the 4013 through the diode OR gate, sending nQ & nDMAIN back high - the 1802 exits DMA state, sending SC1 back low, completing the DMA/ load/examine cycle nQ & nDMAIN will only be low for a microsec or two, SC1 will only be high for a microsec or two. Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the 4013 reset (10). Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the load mode switch). It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high as the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already tested by forcing nDMAIN low). From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 15 16:54:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:54:18 -0400 Subject: Update, Re: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4F62650A.8030009@neurotica.com> Yes; I have the system, it arrived here a few hours ago. I apologize for keeping mum about it, but the situation was somewhat delicate. Upon speaking with the former owner, I learned that it was being pursued in earnest by a scrapper who had grandiose (and inaccurate) ideas of how much gold was in "the old mainframe". So I decided to do whatever was necessary to get it off the market and into safe territory as expeditiously as possible. It is a beautiful system, in almost perfect condition except for a ding or two. It came with several boxes of manuals and magtapes that I haven't gone through yet, but there seem to be lots of AOS docs and software. There are also two Dasher D2 keyboards, but the terminals (about twenty of them) were trashed years ago. My facility is still at least a year away from being open to the public, but anyone here is of course more than welcome to come here to ogle and/or hack on this machine on a private basis until then. Actually, that's an open invitation any of the hardware here. Countless PDP-8s, PDP-10s, PDP-11s and VAXen, even a PDP-14. Several Cray vector supers, some IBM mainframe and mini systems (S/370, S/390, S/36), Heath H1 tube analog machine...I can't (yet) offer crash space, but there are hotels nearby, and hacking is always a good thing. -Dave On 03/04/2012 12:17 AM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > So does anyone know what happened to this auction? > > Thanks, > Rob > On Mar 1, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 03/01/2012 01:42 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: >>> On ebay, item 230754098992. The seller is somewhat clueless about >>> what he has (it's an 80s machine, not 60s) and is probably missing a >>> zero from his estimate of what the thing weighs, but otherwise it >>> looks complete and in good condition save for a couple of rack filler >>> panels that look like someone drove into them. From the photos it >>> looks like two 1600BPI drives, a couple of 8" Fuji SMD drives with >>> some sort of emulating controller and three IAC-16s or equivalent. >>> >>> No affiliation with the seller, save for the fact that I'd be bidding >>> on the thing if I could figure out how to get it from VA to CA. -- >> >> Wow! I'm going to try to grab that. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> > > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > > Colourfull Creations > http://www.colourfull.com > > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Mar 15 18:21:47 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:21:47 +0000 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <4F615061.10407@brouhaha.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> <4F615061.10407@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801F12@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:14 PM > Paul Anderson wrote: >> I'm familiar with the various DEC Unibus backplanes, but I'm not a LCG >> guy. I just wondered it it was in the 11/40 front end. Either way, >> with a part numder I might find something on fishe. > The LP20 backplane is DEC p/n 54-11704. The complete backplane assembly > is 70-11590. The complete LP20 wired assembly is 70-11427. IIRC, Rich > included those part numbers in his original request. The LP20 does go > into an 11/40, but only in a KL10 system. The backplane doesn't have a > model number (e.g., DD11-somthing), since it is only a part of the LP20 > and not used for anything else. Actually, the LP20 can also be used in the Unibus on a KS-10 system. Unfortunately for us, none of our KSes have an LP20. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 15 18:21:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:21:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9000 Pascal sources In-Reply-To: <4F611288.2080107@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 14, 12 02:50:00 pm Message-ID: > > I just uploaded the 9000/200 300 source product floppies to > http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/pascal/B3466A/ This looks very interesting. I am goign to waste (I mean spend...) a lot of time going through this. :-) Thanks. -tony From jthecman at netscape.net Thu Mar 15 18:42:49 2012 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help Needed Message-ID: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> Hello I have two problems that I need help with, one is an IBM Card Interpeter model 552 that has 3 broken legs. I think it's cast iron and one welder told me he could weld the legs back on the unit. Does anyone if these can be repaired or should we build a box with wheels to set it in for museum display? The second problem is a set of Apple MAC 20th Anv pens that have, the pen bodies have turned very soft and sticky and help on stopping this so that these too can be part of a display? Thanks, John From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 15 18:51:07 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:51:07 -0500 Subject: Update, Re: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <4F62650A.8030009@neurotica.com> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> <4F62650A.8030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120315235107.GA1991@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/15/2012 at 05:54PM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote: > > Actually, that's an open invitation any of the hardware here. > Countless PDP-8s, PDP-10s, PDP-11s and VAXen, even a PDP-14. > Several Cray vector supers, some IBM mainframe and mini systems > (S/370, S/390, S/36), Heath H1 tube analog machine...I can't (yet) > offer crash space, but there are hotels nearby, and hacking is > always a good thing. Really... with all that stuff to play with, when would anyone sleep? -- Chris Elmquist From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 15 19:13:28 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:13:28 -0700 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801F12@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> <4F615061.10407@brouhaha.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801F12@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F6285A8.5090302@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The LP20 does go into an 11/40, but only in a KL10 system. Rich Alderson wrote: > Actually, the LP20 can also be used in the Unibus on a KS-10 system. Sure, but not into an 11/40 in a KS10 system. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 19:28:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:28:27 -0700 Subject: Help Needed In-Reply-To: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4F6226BB.28798.18FE6A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2012 at 19:42, jthecman at netscape.net wrote: > Hello > > I have two problems that I need help with, one is an IBM Card > Interpeter model 552 that has 3 broken legs. I think it's cast iron > and one welder told me he could weld the legs back on the unit. Does > anyone if these can be repaired or should we build a box with wheels > to set it in for museum display? The second problem is a set of Apple > MAC 20th Anv pens that have, the pen bodies have turned very soft and > sticky and help on stopping this so that these too can be part of a > display? Cast iron's a b*tch to repair because it's brittle as glass. That's why, for instance a pipe cutter for cast iron plumbing simply applies point-pressure along a line and the pipe just breaks off. That's also why you can demolish a cast-iron bathtub using nothing more than a sledge hammer. I've heard of repairing cast-iron machinery by brazing, rather than welding (lower temperature), with the cast-iron workpiece pre-heated to minimize thermal stresses. You should probably stud the parts together to add some strength and just braze right over the studding. I've also heard of repairing a preheated cast-iron workpiece by using stainless filler wire in a MIG welder. There are (expensive) cast- iron welding rods for use in a normal arc welder, butt he results are often ugly and accompanied by workpiece cracking--and the joint is brittle and hard as glass (because of the high carbon content of cast iron). Whatever you do, don't have the work done by someone who's never worked with cast iron. It requires a careful touch; knowing what one is doing is vital. Good luck! --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 19:30:47 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:30:47 -0500 Subject: Update, Re: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <20120315235107.GA1991@n0jcf.net> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> <4F62650A.8030009@neurotica.com> <20120315235107.GA1991@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4F6289B7.8080008@gmail.com> On 03/15/2012 06:51 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (03/15/2012 at 05:54PM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Actually, that's an open invitation any of the hardware here. >> Countless PDP-8s, PDP-10s, PDP-11s and VAXen, even a PDP-14. >> Several Cray vector supers, some IBM mainframe and mini systems >> (S/370, S/390, S/36), Heath H1 tube analog machine...I can't (yet) >> offer crash space, but there are hotels nearby, and hacking is >> always a good thing. > > Really... with all that stuff to play with, when would anyone sleep? Plus some of those systems are the sort of thing where there's probably room to sleep inside :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 20:01:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:01:40 -0700 Subject: Help Needed In-Reply-To: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4F622E84.7831.1AE4FBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Mar 2012 at 19:42, jthecman at netscape.net wrote: > I have two problems that I need help with, one is an IBM Card > Interpeter model 552 that has 3 broken legs. I think it's cast iron > and one welder told me he could weld the legs back on the unit. Two more items; there's a company that makes products for metal- stitching (no weld): http://www.locknstitch.com/ And a number of old timers swear by using red cast iron flux and some cast iron scrap that a good weld can be had with gas welding. The word here seems to be "do your homework". --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 15 20:01:54 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:01:54 -0600 Subject: Update, Re: Seemingly complete DG S/230 16 bit Eclipse system In-Reply-To: <4F6289B7.8080008@gmail.com> References: <4F4FD990.1070105@neurotica.com> <1CFC0E8F-814E-47F3-8D3A-83A664DC0916@colourfull.com> <4F62650A.8030009@neurotica.com> <20120315235107.GA1991@n0jcf.net> <4F6289B7.8080008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F629102.90608@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/15/2012 6:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Plus some of those systems are the sort of thing where there's probably > room to sleep inside :-) Check for snoring before buying, as it may be occupied. > cheers > > Jules > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 15 20:05:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:05:29 -0700 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F622F69.10472.1B1CEA0@cclist.sydex.com> There's a guy on Erik's Vintage forum who says he's got a new Netronics Elf II kit in original packaging that he'd like to sell: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?29771- Netronics-Elf-II-sealed-in-box-unassembled I thought that it might appeal to some here. --Chuck From ttmrichter at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 20:17:23 2012 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:17:23 +0800 Subject: Help Needed In-Reply-To: <4F622E84.7831.1AE4FBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> <4F622E84.7831.1AE4FBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 16 March 2012 09:01, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The word here seems to be "do your homework". > I believe you'll find that's actually three words. ;) But seriously, yes, don't get this repaired by anybody who's not worked with cast iron before. The results can be?scratch that, *will* be?catastrophic. I've seen cast iron kettles (industrial sized, not home sized) that pretty much literally exploded because of a bad repair job. -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 20:42:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:42:39 -0400 Subject: Help Needed In-Reply-To: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > I have two problems that I need help with, one is an IBM Card Interpeter > model 552 that has 3 broken legs. OK, how did the machine get three broken legs? Usually after the first break, the beast is put to pasture. -- Will From CyndeM at vulcan.com Thu Mar 15 15:26:05 2012 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:26:05 +0000 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F01B273@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> That was my first question too. There is no part number or designator for the backplane that I can find, aside from the 70, 50, and 54 numbers. In the manual "KS10-based DECSYSTEM-2020 technical manual" it is shown in the BA11-K drawer, alongside the DD11-Dk and RH11-C backplane, and it is called "Optional LP20 Backplane". Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams Hi Rich, You mentioned the Unibus backplane. Is there a part number on it, or an oprion name? DD11-B, DD11-C, DD11-DK, etc. Thanks,Paul On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > We have been trying to get working an LP20 printer interface on our > 2065. ?We discovered just today that the issue we have had with bad > control signals was not due to bad boards, but rather was due to the > fact that the bottom 4 segments of the Unibus backplane into which the > control card plugs have no (0) wires wrapped around the pins. > > We have the LP20 schematics, but the wiring diagram *for the > backplane* is not included. ?It also is not to be found on microfiche, > although there is a reference to it, with document numbers. ?We are > specifically looking for 70-11427, 54-11704, and 50-11703. > > If anyone has any of these documents, please let us know ASAP. ? > Otherwise, a young EE is going to have to spend time with the complete > set of LP20 schematics and a spreadsheet program to generate a wire > list and re-wire this thing by guess and by $DEITY, a process that > will take several weeks with no guarantee of correctness of result. > > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From pinball at telus.net Thu Mar 15 18:10:48 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:10:48 -0700 Subject: WTB: Signetics 2650 Evaluation board PC1001 Message-ID: <4F6276F8.2080800@telus.net> Does anyone have one of these animals? I am trying to reproduce an old video game that was based on it and figured it might be easier with the Eval. board. Thanks, John Robertson Vancouver, BC, Canada From alkopop79 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 19:51:40 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:51:40 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 and reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I spent a few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to simulate SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. But once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing works. I even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN pin is set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can think of (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the diodes are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is that I use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for some weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll check this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the HP displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even though they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins low. I wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at least I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. It's certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and indispensable help! Greg > > Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the 4013 > reset (10). > Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and STAY > low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the load mode > switch). > It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high as > the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already tested > by forcing nDMAIN low). > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 16 02:14:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 03:14:17 -0400 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F01B273@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F01B273@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F62E849.5080402@neurotica.com> On 03/15/2012 04:26 PM, Cynde Moya wrote: > That was my first question too. There is no part number or designator > for the backplane that I can find, aside from the 70, 50, and 54 > numbers. In the manual "KS10-based DECSYSTEM-2020 technical manual" > it is shown in the BA11-K drawer, alongside the DD11-Dk and RH11-C > backplane, and it is called "Optional LP20 Backplane". I am almost certain that neither of my KS10s have an LP20 installed, but I will check tomorrow just to be certain. If I have one, I'll either document it or loan it to you folks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 16 04:42:45 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:42:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: WTB: Signetics 2650 Evaluation board PC1001 In-Reply-To: <4F6276F8.2080800@telus.net> References: <4F6276F8.2080800@telus.net> Message-ID: Speaking of the Signetics 2650, does anyone have anything about the Signetics TWIN (e.g. manuals, schematics)? We have a bare system without floppy drive, but with a bunch of hard-sectored floppies that I have just dumped. They containt mostly SDOS related stuff, e.g. system sources, Pascal compiler etc. Christian From sander.reiche at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 05:47:15 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:47:15 +0100 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <4F62E849.5080402@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F01B273@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F62E849.5080402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2012, at 8:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > I am almost certain that neither of my KS10s have an LP20 installed, > but I will check tomorrow just to be certain. If I have one, I'll > either document it or loan it to you folks. > > -Dave "either" of the KS10s... Dear sir, if I wasn't already, I am now; insanely jealous... :) re, Sander From doc at vaxen.net Fri Mar 16 09:42:45 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:42:45 -0500 Subject: Help Needed In-Reply-To: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4F635165.5010201@vaxen.net> On 3/15/12 6:42 PM, jthecman at netscape.net wrote: > Hello > > I have two problems that I need help with, one is an IBM Card Interpeter > model 552 that has 3 broken legs. I think it's cast iron and one welder > told me he could weld the legs back on the unit. Does anyone if these > can be repaired or should we build a box with wheels to set it in for > museum display? A though. A couple of points: If I were doing this the first question would be "Will you run the machine or is it for display?" The fact that three legs are broken suggests that if this is going to be a working exhibit, any repair is likely to fail unless it's reinforced. If it's going to see any serious use, I'd build a stand for it. If it's going to see serious use and you really want it original, have the base recast. Not Cheap. No offense to anyone, but ignore all the list-members' suggestions about fluxes, MIG, arc rod, etc. "Cast iron" covers a LOT of alloys, and by the time that unit was built it's probably actually cast steel. The welder doing the repair should be able to identify the metal and suggest the right process. Finally, ask around a bit if you're going to have the cast base repaired. If you want a structurally sound repair, you need someone with specialized skills. I was a welder for quite a few years in the '70s & '80s and I know just enough about cast-metal repair that I wouldn't touch this. A welder or blacksmith who specializes in cast work should have no trouble with it. Doc From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Mar 16 10:21:38 2012 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:21:38 +0000 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) Message-ID: Hi, I've decided I'd like to reduce down my collection of PDP-11 and PDP-8s and so I have the following that I may be prepared to part with. All the machines and parts are located in the UK and at this stage I'm interested in expressions of interest. Please bare in mind that the machines are for pickup from the UK and would probably be impactical to ship. PDP-11/05 - 5.25" form factor PDP-11/10 PDP-11/15 PDP-11/34 PDP-11/34A PDP-11/35 PDP-11/40 PDP-11/44 PDP-11/70 PDP-8/E, 3 rack setup with 2 x RK05s, 2 x magtape PDP-8/L (missing its core memory card) Various qbus machines (PDP-11/03,11/23,11/73) Various TU56 drives PC04 paper tape drive PC05 paper tape drive Lots of RL01/02 drives RK05 drives All the best, Toby From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 11:26:57 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:26:57 -0000 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would be interested in something at the small end of the scale... ... where in the UK are you -----Original Message----- From: Tobias Russell Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 3:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) Hi, I've decided I'd like to reduce down my collection of PDP-11 and PDP-8s and so I have the following that I may be prepared to part with. All the machines and parts are located in the UK and at this stage I'm interested in expressions of interest. Please bare in mind that the machines are for pickup from the UK and would probably be impactical to ship. PDP-11/05 - 5.25" form factor PDP-11/10 PDP-11/15 PDP-11/34 PDP-11/34A PDP-11/35 PDP-11/40 PDP-11/44 PDP-11/70 PDP-8/E, 3 rack setup with 2 x RK05s, 2 x magtape PDP-8/L (missing its core memory card) Various qbus machines (PDP-11/03,11/23,11/73) Various TU56 drives PC04 paper tape drive PC05 paper tape drive Lots of RL01/02 drives RK05 drives All the best, Toby From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 16 11:31:27 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D17 - D37 console info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1331915487.56750.YahooMailClassic@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> After following the thread about the Autonetics D17 carcass on ebay, I realized I have a console from a model D37C. Does anyone know what the console was used for? Could it have been used for testing a processor out in the lab before installation on a missile? Note the nice wooden sides! The photos can be seen here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/d37/ Bob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 16 13:24:39 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:24:39 +0000 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> I'd be interested in a couple of RL01/RL02 drives, a PDP system which can run them, and the cables and I/O cards necessary to do this. If you've got a broken RL01 or RL02 (mechanically sound, but broken electronics -- the heads must be good), I'll take that and a working drive, and a couple of disk packs -- I've got a crazy idea which involves building a servo-writer for RL0x packs, and I need some drives to do this :) Thanks, Phil. On 16/03/12 15:21, Tobias Russell wrote: > Hi, > > I've decided I'd like to reduce down my collection of PDP-11 and PDP-8s and > so I have the following that I may be prepared to part with. All the > machines and parts are located in the UK and at this stage I'm interested > in expressions of interest. Please bare in mind that the machines are for > pickup from the UK and would probably be impactical to ship. > > PDP-11/05 - 5.25" form factor > PDP-11/10 > PDP-11/15 > PDP-11/34 > PDP-11/34A > PDP-11/35 > PDP-11/40 > PDP-11/44 > PDP-11/70 > PDP-8/E, 3 rack setup with 2 x RK05s, 2 x magtape > PDP-8/L (missing its core memory card) > Various qbus machines (PDP-11/03,11/23,11/73) > Various TU56 drives > PC04 paper tape drive > PC05 paper tape drive > Lots of RL01/02 drives > RK05 drives > > All the best, > Toby -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 14:50:37 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:50:37 +0000 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer Message-ID: On another mailing list that I am on, someone was expressing the desire to retrieve data off some old BBC Micro floppies to see if it would be possible to get some of the software running on a Raspberry Pi. They do not own any machine with a floppy interface. I suggested KryoFlux as a possible solution. This was the response: (Me) > > These days, you probably want something more like this: > > http://www.kryoflux.com/ (Other chap) > The driver is not only closed-source, but forbids commercial use and > requests donations on top of the EUR100 they charge for about EUR20 of > electronics. The vendor can go fuck themselves. And you can quote me on > that. Sorry, chaps, but I really do think you have a bit of a problem here that you need to address! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dave12 at dunfield.com Fri Mar 16 16:20:22 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:20:22 -0500 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer Message-ID: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> >On another mailing list that I am on, someone was expressing the >desire to retrieve data off some old BBC Micro floppies to see if it >would be possible to get some of the software running on a Raspberry >Pi. They do not own any machine with a floppy interface. My BBC's don't have drives, and I don't have any software disks - so I don't have a way to test this ... but ... According to the all-knowing google, the BBC disk system used an Intel 8271 and later an WD 177x controller - the 8271 does IBM 3740, and the WD is certainly capable of it (so hopefully they kept the format the same). So it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that these disks could be read with ImageDisk - granted he'll need a DOS/floppy capable PC (or a friend with one), but it might be worth a try. Dave PS: If anyone does read BBC disks, I'd love copies for the archive. -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 16 15:53:10 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:53:10 +0000 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F63A836.1020800@philpem.me.uk> On 16/03/12 21:20, Dave Dunfield wrote: > So it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that these disks > could be read with ImageDisk - granted he'll need a DOS/floppy capable > PC (or a friend with one), but it might be worth a try. It might, but they're FM format. Every single PC floppy drive / controller combination I've tried turns its nose up at BBC floppies (snooty little things!)... including the 386. PC controllers with FM support seem to be few and far between. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Mar 16 16:02:17 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 10:02:17 +1300 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: Here is how I read my BBC disks http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-12-31-disk-from-images-bbc.htm Terry (Tez) On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >On another mailing list that I am on, someone was expressing the > >desire to retrieve data off some old BBC Micro floppies to see if it > >would be possible to get some of the software running on a Raspberry > >Pi. They do not own any machine with a floppy interface. > > My BBC's don't have drives, and I don't have any software disks - so I > don't have a way to test this ... but ... > > According to the all-knowing google, the BBC disk system used an > Intel 8271 and later an WD 177x controller - the 8271 does IBM 3740, > and the WD is certainly capable of it (so hopefully they kept the > format the same). > > So it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that these disks > could be read with ImageDisk - granted he'll need a DOS/floppy capable > PC (or a friend with one), but it might be worth a try. > > Dave > > PS: If anyone does read BBC disks, I'd love copies for the archive. > -- > dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Mar 16 16:23:30 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 10:23:30 +1300 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: References: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: Actually correction...this is how I made my BBC disks from disk images. Reading disks are easier and (from memory) all three options mentioned have worked for me. Terry (Tez) On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Here is how I read my BBC disks > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-12-31-disk-from-images-bbc.htm > > Terry (Tez) > > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> >On another mailing list that I am on, someone was expressing the >> >desire to retrieve data off some old BBC Micro floppies to see if it >> >would be possible to get some of the software running on a Raspberry >> >Pi. They do not own any machine with a floppy interface. >> >> My BBC's don't have drives, and I don't have any software disks - so I >> don't have a way to test this ... but ... >> >> According to the all-knowing google, the BBC disk system used an >> Intel 8271 and later an WD 177x controller - the 8271 does IBM 3740, >> and the WD is certainly capable of it (so hopefully they kept the >> format the same). >> >> So it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that these disks >> could be read with ImageDisk - granted he'll need a DOS/floppy capable >> PC (or a friend with one), but it might be worth a try. >> >> Dave >> >> PS: If anyone does read BBC disks, I'd love copies for the archive. >> -- >> dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield >> dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >> (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ >> >> > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 16:57:53 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:57:53 -0500 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F63B761.3090602@gmail.com> On 03/16/2012 04:20 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> On another mailing list that I am on, someone was expressing the >> desire to retrieve data off some old BBC Micro floppies to see if it >> would be possible to get some of the software running on a Raspberry >> Pi. They do not own any machine with a floppy interface. > > My BBC's don't have drives, and I don't have any software disks - so I > don't have a way to test this ... but ... > > According to the all-knowing google, the BBC disk system used an > Intel 8271 and later an WD 177x controller - the 8271 does IBM 3740, > and the WD is certainly capable of it (so hopefully they kept the > format the same). > > So it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that these disks > could be read with ImageDisk They can, assuming a PC with an FM-capable controller; I did hundreds[1] that way. The only minor detail was that most BBC floppies are treated as two separate filesystems, so the single comment section in the Imagedisk file can get a bit unwieldy. [1] and subsequently found that my backup that I have in the US was hosed (the IMD files themselves have large chunks missing) - so the only good (hopefully! ;-) copies are 4000 miles away in storage. Happy to share when they do eventually make it over here with me, though. I've serial-linked floppy data (and hard disk images, which takes hours) from BBC machines before too - but from Liam's post it sounds as though the person he's referring to doesn't have a BBC with a floppy drive, let alone a more modern PC equipped with such. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 16 16:58:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:58:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Mar 16, 12 04:20:22 pm Message-ID: > > >On another mailing list that I am on, someone was expressing the > >desire to retrieve data off some old BBC Micro floppies to see if it > >would be possible to get some of the software running on a Raspberry > >Pi. They do not own any machine with a floppy interface. > > My BBC's don't have drives, and I don't have any software disks - so I > don't have a way to test this ... but ... That's a pity, a Beeb is a much nicer machine when it has disks... > > According to the all-knowing google, the BBC disk system used an > Intel 8271 and later an WD 177x controller - the 8271 does IBM 3740, > and the WD is certainly capable of it (so hopefully they kept the > format the same). Correct. IRIC, Acorn DFS used single-density (FM) format and yes, the format was identical no matter which disk controlelr you had. I am pretty sure there were double-density systems for the 1770, biut the standard was single-density. Not only was the foramt the same, but there was a systme call to send commands to the disk controlelr. These were the raw commens fro the 8271 chip. If oyu had a 1770, the software automattically translatted them into the approrpate 1770 commands, so that copy-prorection schemes that talked to the disk cotnrolelr via this call would still work. > So it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that these disks > could be read with ImageDisk - granted he'll need a DOS/floppy capable > PC (or a friend with one), but it might be worth a try. I so no reason why not, if you have a PC that can handle single density disks (a lot can;'t). I do know that the 1793-based controller in the TRS-80 Model 3/4 can read them, there was a commerical program available to do just that. There was nothing really odd about the BBC format AFAIK. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 16 18:03:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rant: Kryoflux and others - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: <4F63B761.3090602@gmail.com> References: <4F63A086.8809.1B18B2E@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F63B761.3090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120316151009.X9522@shell.lmi.net> The user doesn't have a BBC. The user doesn't have a PC with a floppy drive. Kryoflux, diskferret, catweasel, CopyIIPC Option, etc. are NOT solutions to that. The user needs to get a BBC, or get a PC with a floppy drive. FDCs that CAN handle FM are rare, but they DO exist, and are not THAT hard to find. There is even specific software available, to run on the PC and transfer files from BBC disks! Ready to go, without a requirement that the user roll his own. IF the user gets a PC and a floppy drive, then the flux transition could POSSIBLY be used in place of a floppy disk controller. If you are a friggin' moron. You are sending the user FURTHER from what they need, not closer. Why? You are giving the user a book about Stirling Cycle motors, when what he needs is busfare. You might as well hand the user a bare 6502 chip, and say, "Start by building a computer out of this." Raw flux transition devices are a fantastic way to read stuff that is not possible with stock hardware. They are NOT yet, nor in the immediate future, an acceptable drop-in alternative to an FDC. Write a replacement INT13h that speaks to the flux transition device, and let's talk. But, for the general public, don't even bring it up until you have an installable device driver in bed with the OS. Until then, it is a lab tool for a different purpose. Yes, I want one of each of them! But NOT as a way to provide a timely solution to somebody who just wants to move their data over to a currently accessible format. That is properly handled by the stock hardware, and AVAILABLE oddball software, although admittedly it will take some minor searching to find the "RIGHT" FDC. Dave has provided some tools to help with that testing. Option Board was "trade secret" proprietary due to paranoia about imitators. (their PRIMARY clientelle was for making unauthorized (I did not say "illegal") copies. Catweasel talked way too much about what it "could" do ("it can read Mac disks", etc.), and actively avoided mentioning that it was not ready to do any of that in the ways that a normal person would assume were being discussed. (being able to make use of the content of the files on the disk!) Kryoflux shows great promise, but they need to rewrite their license agreements, since there is currently far too much ambiguity (OR possibility for misinterpretation). Then the useful software can happen. Diskferret shows great promise. But Phil is doing exceptional work ON HIS OWN! There is an enormous amount left to be done. There are certain goals for the products. Each is at its own stages. 1) analyze a disk (for curiosity or research) 2) make a file containing the flux-transition data of the disk (for future curiousity and research) 3) Be able to use that flux-transition data file to recreate the disk from a blank 4) Be able to examine sectors on the disk 5) Be able to read and write sectors on the disk 6) specific software for parsing the filesystem on the disk - read write files from a disk other than that of the host filesystem 7) be able to read and write sectors, and interface to the host device drivers, so that the device looks like the host's own FDC 8) combine #6 and #7 (IFS) so that the files on the alien disk look to the user as though they are on the host filesystem People use the phrase "read a disk". But they don't have the same intended meaning for the phrase. One meaning is be able to analyze it, plot histograms, look at how the format is structured. One meaning is make an image of it, and store it. A DIFFERENT meaning is make an image of it, and be able to recreate a [presumably] usable copy of the original disk by writing that image back to a blank. A close related meaning is to be able to "clone" a disk. Another meaning is to transfer files from that disk to the filesystem of your host machine. Another potential source of variation in the definitions is whether or not the host machine can recreate the COMPLETE information content of the file - What do you get when you hand your word processor a Wordstar file? And, somebody who is NOT familiar with such issues may very well assume that #8 is what is meant by "it can read an X disk". When the end user says, "I used to have a BBC, and all of my documents and shit are on those disks. I want to read them." Which meaning do you suppose is most likely to be the intended one? (probably #8, but they'll settle for #6, NOT #2 and #3) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alkopop79 at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 13:15:57 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:15:57 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I assume i just have to rewire the thing. On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: > All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 and > reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I spent a > few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to simulate > SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. But > once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing works. I > even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN pin is > set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can think of > (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the diodes > are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is that I > use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for some > weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll check > this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the HP > displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even though > they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins low. I > wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at least > I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. It's > certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and indispensable > help! > > Greg > > > >> >> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the 4013 >> reset (10). >> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and >> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the load >> mode switch). >> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high as >> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already tested >> by forcing nDMAIN low). >> >> >> >> >> > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Mar 16 18:10:57 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D17 - D37 console info? Message-ID: <1331939457.460.YahooMailClassic@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 3/16/12, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Could it have been used for testing a processor out in the > lab before installation on a missile? Note the nice wooden > sides! The styling is definitely industrial, not military, which makes me wonder if there was a commercial version of the D37. (Univac had an industrial machine what was a repackaged version of a military processor -- I don't recall the model.) More likely, there was a repackaged version of the machine for use in software development, with more appropriate peripherals for testing code than a gyro platform and a nuke! --Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 16 18:17:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120316161511.B9522@shell.lmi.net> > > The driver is not only closed-source, but forbids commercial use and > > requests donations on top of the EUR100 they charge for about EUR20 of > > electronics. The vendor can go fuck themselves. And you can quote me on > > that. On Fri, 16 Mar 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Sorry, chaps, but I really do think you have a bit of a problem here > that you need to address! You're right about that! The license may not be anywhere near as onerous and draconian as it is perceived, but that perception, even if completely wrong, NEEDS to be addressed! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Mar 16 20:34:30 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking hp48 card info, oliver klotz Message-ID: I'm trying to figure out how to contact the Oliver Klotz who used to sell HP48 RAM cards on ebay a couple years ago. I'm trying to get my hands on some and, if possible, schematics for higher-capacity cards. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 21:56:06 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:56:06 -0500 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: the 11/70 wonders what the shipping on that to winnipeg canada would be an interested adition to the local hackerspace here were my heathkit h11 lsi-11 created quite a stir curently the lonly heathkit h11 has a rl02 controllor installed 3 rl02 drives 1 was known to work but havent figured out how to use it yet and 2 that last time used was in 1990 lol that look like they need cleaning. havent had time to sit down with the rl's yet :( been off in northern canada working and a 8a 8k ram with asr33 and pile of jerrel ash scientific perifial cards for a spectrometer all be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6929974463/in/photostream/lightbox/ sept for my rk05's and pertek tape drive i am waiting on delivery for :D now i need to find some rk05 platters for those From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Sat Mar 17 09:47:32 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:47:32 +0200 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 Message-ID: <4F64A404.7020308@conus.info> Hi. I got unidentified Emulex card from, probably from 1991. It is 16-bit ISA, it has two connectors male DB-25 and male DE-15F (like on VGA cards, but male). It is probably multi-port card, but I'm not sure. Here detailed photos: Label: http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex1.jpg Component side: http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex2.jpg Back side: http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex3.jpg Connectors: http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex4.jpg Does anybody here know what this is and whether it's possible to get manuals? Programming manuals? From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 17 10:58:47 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D17 - D37 console info? In-Reply-To: <1331939457.460.YahooMailClassic@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1331999927.44499.YahooMailClassic@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 3/16/12, William Maddox wrote: > From: William Maddox > Subject: Re: Autonetics D17 - D37 console info? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 4:10 PM > --- On Fri, 3/16/12, Bob Rosenbloom > > wrote: > > > Could it have been used for testing a processor out in > the > > lab before installation on a missile? Note the nice > wooden > > sides! > > The styling is definitely industrial, not military, which > makes > me wonder if there was a commercial version of the D37. > (Univac had an industrial machine what was a repackaged > version > of a military processor -- I don't recall the model.)? > More > likely, there was a repackaged version of the machine for > use > in software development, with more appropriate peripherals > for > testing code than a gyro platform and a nuke! > > --Bill > Could be. It did come from a Govliquidation auction though. It was installed in a rack with a military 9 track tape drive. I would believe they used commercial sometimes for testing and development. Sure wish I had the processor to go with it! Bob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 11:11:45 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:11:45 -0000 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F64A404.7020308@conus.info> Message-ID: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> Given the date codes on the ICs appear to be from 1995 mostly later weeks, it must be 1995 or later. The AMD85C30 is a posh USART so I suspect it was for high speed sync/async communications. I wonder if the small connector is X.21 interface... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Yurichev > Sent: 17 March 2012 14:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 > > > Hi. > > I got unidentified Emulex card from, probably from 1991. > It is 16-bit ISA, it has two connectors male DB-25 and male > DE-15F (like > on VGA cards, but male). > It is probably multi-port card, but I'm not sure. > Here detailed photos: > > Label: > http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex1.jpg > > Component side: > http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex2.jpg > > Back side: > http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex3.jpg > > Connectors: > http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex4.jpg > > Does anybody here know what this is and whether it's possible to get > manuals? Programming manuals? > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Mar 17 12:11:13 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:11:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Mar 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > the 11/70 wonders what the shipping on that to winnipeg canada would be an [...] I don't understand that sentence... How can a 11/70 wonder? Is that Canadian slang or the result of an aborted school term? Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 17 13:08:53 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:08:53 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? Message-ID: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> I have a small stack of single-sided disks that I need to image, and didn't realize that they are 18 sector with 0-16 256 bytes and 17 128 bytes, so Imagedisk won't work. What is the preferred container format? Looks like the Australian museum uses .td0 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 17 14:33:26 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:33:26 -0700 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <358DE6A5-B803-41E5-BB50-A8D50706FFFC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 17, at 10:11 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 16 Mar 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> the 11/70 wonders what the shipping on that to winnipeg canada >> would be an > [...] > > I don't understand that sentence... How can a 11/70 wonder? Is that > Canadian slang or the result of an aborted school term? I guess even 11/70s have dreams and aspirations. There was a famous sci-fi novel and movie about that. .. no, it's just modern tweeter-talk. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 14:33:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:33:04 -0400 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F64E6F0.1000403@neurotica.com> On 03/17/2012 01:11 PM, Christian Corti wrote: >> the 11/70 wonders what the shipping on that to winnipeg canada would >> be an > [...] > > I don't understand that sentence... How can a 11/70 wonder? Is that > Canadian slang or the result of an aborted school term? Oh, give the guy a break. We all have to accept (because we cannot change) the demise of the language at the hands of the younger generation. It's unfortunate, but these guys (especially Adrian) are not pure evil because of it. Adrian in particular has some awesome stuff (some of which I'm pretty damn jealous of), he's doing cool stuff with it, and he's learning fast. The kid's alright...please give him a break. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 14:49:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:49:34 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> "Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. That's a pretty serious board. There's also a '286 on there, DMA and interrupt support, a bunch of memory...whatever it did, it needed some horsepower! My guess is a high-speed sync port with onboard protocol handling. -Dave On 03/17/2012 12:11 PM, Dave wrote: > Given the date codes on the ICs appear to be from 1995 mostly later weeks, > it must be 1995 or later. The AMD85C30 is a posh USART so I suspect it was > for high speed sync/async communications. I wonder if the small connector is > X.21 interface... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Yurichev >> Sent: 17 March 2012 14:48 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 >> >> >> Hi. >> >> I got unidentified Emulex card from, probably from 1991. >> It is 16-bit ISA, it has two connectors male DB-25 and male >> DE-15F (like >> on VGA cards, but male). >> It is probably multi-port card, but I'm not sure. >> Here detailed photos: >> >> Label: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex1.jpg >> >> Component side: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex2.jpg >> >> Back side: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex3.jpg >> >> Connectors: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex4.jpg >> >> Does anybody here know what this is and whether it's possible to get >> manuals? Programming manuals? >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 14:57:55 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 19:57:55 -0000 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0A05C14F0FC34DA59B77ABA2C4FD6B56@HP4CORE> Oddly its not listed in any of the SNA server documents I have, and SNA server would drive most SDLC/HDLC/X.35 cards? -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 "Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. That's a pretty serious board. There's also a '286 on there, DMA and interrupt support, a bunch of memory...whatever it did, it needed some horsepower! My guess is a high-speed sync port with onboard protocol handling. -Dave On 03/17/2012 12:11 PM, Dave wrote: > Given the date codes on the ICs appear to be from 1995 mostly later weeks, > it must be 1995 or later. The AMD85C30 is a posh USART so I suspect it was > for high speed sync/async communications. I wonder if the small connector > is > X.21 interface... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Yurichev >> Sent: 17 March 2012 14:48 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 >> >> >> Hi. >> >> I got unidentified Emulex card from, probably from 1991. >> It is 16-bit ISA, it has two connectors male DB-25 and male >> DE-15F (like >> on VGA cards, but male). >> It is probably multi-port card, but I'm not sure. >> Here detailed photos: >> >> Label: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex1.jpg >> >> Component side: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex2.jpg >> >> Back side: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex3.jpg >> >> Connectors: >> http://yurichev.com/non-wiki-files/unknown-emulex/emulex4.jpg >> >> Does anybody here know what this is and whether it's possible to get >> manuals? Programming manuals? >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 15:16:30 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:16:30 -0700 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <0A05C14F0FC34DA59B77ABA2C4FD6B56@HP4CORE> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <0A05C14F0FC34DA59B77ABA2C4FD6B56@HP4CORE> Message-ID: Maybe something close to this? http://web.archive.org/web/19980213050907/http://www.emulex.com/dcp/dcp-286sbc.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 15:23:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:23:21 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <0A05C14F0FC34DA59B77ABA2C4FD6B56@HP4CORE> Message-ID: <4F64F2B9.8060802@neurotica.com> On 03/17/2012 04:16 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Maybe something close to this? > > http://web.archive.org/web/19980213050907/http://www.emulex.com/dcp/dcp-286sbc.html Sure looks like it to me! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Sat Mar 17 15:33:40 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:33:40 +0100 Subject: Help Needed In-Reply-To: <4F635165.5010201@vaxen.net> References: <8CED11C772D3E44-1E64-19351@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> <4F635165.5010201@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <1332016420.4225.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> fre 2012-03-16 klockan 09:42 -0500 skrev Doc: > A couple of points: > > If I were doing this the first question would be "Will you run the > machine or is it for display?" > > The fact that three legs are broken suggests that if this is going to > be a working exhibit, any repair is likely to fail unless it's > reinforced. If it's going to see any serious use, I'd build a stand for > it. If it's going to see serious use and you really want it original, > have the base recast. Not Cheap. > > No offense to anyone, but ignore all the list-members' suggestions > about fluxes, MIG, arc rod, etc. "Cast iron" covers a LOT of alloys, > and by the time that unit was built it's probably actually cast steel. > The welder doing the repair should be able to identify the metal and > suggest the right process. > > Finally, ask around a bit if you're going to have the cast base > repaired. If you want a structurally sound repair, you need someone > with specialized skills. I was a welder for quite a few years in the > '70s & '80s and I know just enough about cast-metal repair that I > wouldn't touch this. A welder or blacksmith who specializes in cast > work should have no trouble with it. > If you go for a repair the welder should ask for and get an sample of the stand analysed. IF it is good cast steel he/she should be able to mend it into something not far from NEW ! this is very much depending on material. Steel with good welding properties can be very good and whats more : old cast steel has as good or better properties than new stuff BUT the welder must know his work. In my other hobby, we had a trouble with crack in the spokes on six locomotive wheels. Motala Verkstad did cut out all the cracks and rebuild the material with welds. The wheels was cast in 1911. The repairs cost 180 000 :- SeK or around 20 000 Euro. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 17 15:49:28 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:49:28 +0100 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? Message-ID: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> ....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, on the exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it does under either Ubuntu or Windows ? ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) Classicmp link : the program is my new release of Emulith, the ETH Lilith emulator. Jos Dreesen From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 17 16:48:26 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 22:48:26 +0100 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000001cd0487$b2c678e0$18536aa0$@xs4all.nl> The Australian Museum is also using .hpi format build by Ansgar Kueskes from http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ Which makes it also possible to use a pc as ss80/cs80 or amigo drive. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: zaterdag 17 maart 2012 19:09 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? > > I have a small stack of single-sided disks that I need to image, and didn't realize > that they are 18 sector with 0-16 256 bytes and 17 128 bytes, so Imagedisk > won't work. > What is the preferred container format? Looks like the Australian museum uses > .td0 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 17 17:16:12 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:16:12 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <000001cd0487$b2c678e0$18536aa0$@xs4all.nl> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> <000001cd0487$b2c678e0$18536aa0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4F650D2C.20901@bitsavers.org> On 3/17/12 2:48 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > The Australian Museum is also using .hpi format build by Ansgar Kueskes from > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ > Which makes it also possible to use a pc as ss80/cs80 or amigo drive. > .hpi is just a dump of the sector payload. FDIO is Windows only. http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/fdio/ shows the 3.5" SS (9121) as being 16 x 256 so I wonder what the 128 byte sector is, if anything that I'm seeing From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Mar 17 17:33:51 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:33:51 -0400 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4F65114F.1010706@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/03/12 4:49 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > ....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, on > the exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it does > under either Ubuntu or Windows ? > Unlike those other systems, OS X has DTrace, which should help pinpoint the issue. Unfortunately I can't donate my time right now, but if nobody else steps up, contact me in a few weeks... --T > ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) > > Classicmp link : the program is my new release of Emulith, the ETH > Lilith emulator. > > Jos Dreesen > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 17:44:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:44:24 -0400 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F01B273@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F62E849.5080402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F6513C8.4080703@neurotica.com> On 03/16/2012 06:47 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Mar 16, 2012, at 8:14, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I am almost certain that neither of my KS10s have an LP20 installed, >> but I will check tomorrow just to be certain. If I have one, I'll >> either document it or loan it to you folks. >> >> -Dave > "either" of the KS10s... Dear sir, if I wasn't already, I am now; > insanely jealous... :) :-) Feel free to come visit! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 17 18:11:03 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:11:03 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F650D2C.20901@bitsavers.org> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> <000001cd0487$b2c678e0$18536aa0$@xs4all.nl> <4F650D2C.20901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F651A07.4090700@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > shows the 3.5" SS (9121) as being 16 x 256 so I wonder what the 128 > byte sector is, if anything > that I'm seeing The HP drives keep some medium wear metadata on the disk, and eventually are supposed to report to the system that the medium should be replaced. I have a vague recollection that there's an extra sector for that. Maybe that's the 128-byte sector you're seeing? From alkopop79 at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 10:48:00 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:48:00 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display after I press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit work fine. However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and pressed INPUT and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. It didn't happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control circuit seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/write enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic state in the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be entered to the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of pins 18 and 20 (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when pressing the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting > anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone > mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I assume i > just have to rewire the thing. > > On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: > >> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 and >> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I spent a >> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to simulate >> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. But >> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing works. I >> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN pin is >> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can think of >> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the diodes >> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is that I >> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for some >> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll check >> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the HP >> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even though >> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins low. I >> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at least >> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. It's >> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and indispensable >> help! >> >> Greg >> >> >> >>> >>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the 4013 >>> reset (10). >>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and >>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the load >>> mode switch). >>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high as >>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already tested >>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> From cb at kryoflux.com Sat Mar 17 18:25:01 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:25:01 +0100 Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F651D4D.5060802@kryoflux.com> > (Me) >>> > > These days, you probably want something more like this: >>> > > http://www.kryoflux.com/ > (Other chap) >> > The driver is not only closed-source, but forbids commercial use and >> > requests donations on top of the EUR100 they charge for about EUR20 of >> > electronics. The vendor can go fuck themselves. And you can quote me on >> > that. > Sorry, chaps, but I really do think you have a bit of a problem here > that you need to address! Hi Liam, I am not sure if it does make much sense to address these polite "concerns" by the other chap... :) If the person making this statement can make boards for EUR 20.- each we'd be delighted to buy from him. For sure such price would be possible when making 100,000+ boards. We do runs of 100, we have to pay for electronics recycling (WEEE) registration, we pay tax, etc. I am sure hobbyists only doing a few boards can get around such things, we can't. We can't get even near this figure. For the record: the board is EUR 90.-; EUR 100.- is with cables we also have to buy to resell them. The donations asked for are for the preservation project, maybe it would have made sense to read the donations text file enclosed. And yes, even MS Office has student and pro editions available, I don't see anything wrong in charging companies that can afford to pay more. They keep it free for private users, at least for our product. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 18:53:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 19:53:07 -0400 Subject: DECnet for RSX? Message-ID: <4F6523E3.8050501@neurotica.com> Anybody have a distribution of DECnet for RSX that they might be able to share? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 17 19:07:55 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:07:55 -0700 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: As a Mac user, it pains me to say this, but the problem could simply be that you're running it on Mac OS X. A few years ago someone did some speed comparisons of Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. While I forget the specific's, it boiled down to the problem is the Mach Micorkernel. Does anyone else remember this, and have any pointers to the article, or more current testing on this? Zane At 9:49 PM +0100 3/17/12, Jos Dreesen wrote: >....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, >on the exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it >does under either Ubuntu or Windows ? > >( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) > >Classicmp link : the program is my new release of Emulith, the ETH >Lilith emulator. > > Jos Dreesen -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 19:11:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:11:09 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug Message-ID: <4F65281D.1010402@neurotica.com> Does anyone have a unit select plug for an RL01/02 drive, for unit 2, that they can spare? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 17 19:38:34 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:38:34 -0700 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> Idle state for RAM-R/W (20) should HIGH (read). I expect idle state for RAM-OD (18) is also HIGH (RAM outputs disabled). I would suggest before trying to run a program you confirm that you are able to load and examine memory. One of the subtle points here is that when loading/examining/running you generally need to go 'through' the RESET state with the mode switches to reset the internal address pointer to zero. Here's a load/examine test sequence: Load: L1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 address pointer=0) L2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for WRITE/LOAD (*MP down) L3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) L4 - set data switches to 0001 0000, press STEP/*INPUT (load $10 into mem-0) L5 - set data switches to 0001 0001, press STEP/*INPUT (load $11 into mem-1) L6 - set data switches to 0001 0010, press STEP/*INPUT (load $12 into mem-2) Examine: E1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 address pointer=0) E2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for READ/EXAMINE (*MP up) E3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) E4 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0000 ($10) E5 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0001 ($11) E6 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0010 ($12) If you miss step L1, you won't know where you are actually loading into memory. If you miss step E1, the examine steps (E4,E5,E6) will display addresses 3,4,5 rather than displaying addresses 0,1,2. The same issue applies when running a program, you normally have to reset state with the mode switches so the program starts running at 0. I don't like the switch labels of the original Elf, they can be misleading, but that's history. I relabelled/disambiguated them in my schematic and unit, the * labels above are the original switch labels, others are mine. On 2012 Mar 17, at 8:48 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display after I > press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit work > fine. > However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and > pressed INPUT > and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. It > didn't > happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control > circuit > seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/write > enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic > state in > the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be > entered to > the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of pins > 18 and 20 > (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when > pressing > the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. > > > On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > >> Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting >> anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone >> mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I >> assume i >> just have to rewire the thing. >> >> On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: >> >>> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to >>> SC1 and >>> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I >>> spent a >>> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to >>> simulate >>> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the >>> oscilloscope. But >>> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing >>> works. I >>> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA >>> IN pin is >>> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can >>> think of >>> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the >>> diodes >>> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing >>> is that I >>> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works >>> (for some >>> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). >>> I'll check >>> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets >>> the HP >>> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and >>> even though >>> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable >>> pins low. I >>> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, >>> at least >>> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. >>> It's >>> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and >>> indispensable >>> help! >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at >>>> the 4013 >>>> reset (10). >>>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go >>>> low and >>>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip >>>> the load >>>> mode switch). >>>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse >>>> high as >>>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you >>>> already tested >>>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Mar 17 19:52:04 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:52:04 +0000 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <4F6513C8.4080703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/12 3:44 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >On 03/16/2012 06:47 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: >> On Mar 16, 2012, at 8:14, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I am almost certain that neither of my KS10s have an LP20 installed, >>> but I will check tomorrow just to be certain. If I have one, I'll >>> either document it or loan it to you folks. >>> >>> -Dave >> "either" of the KS10s... Dear sir, if I wasn't already, I am now; >> insanely jealous... :) > > :-) > > Feel free to come visit! > We have multiple KS-10s - and KL-10s - and? you're welcome to come visit! -- Ian (Living Computer Museum, Seattle) > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 17 20:27:49 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:27:49 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F653A15.1050901@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > I have a small stack of single-sided disks that I need to image, and > didn't realize > that they are 18 sector with 0-16 256 bytes and 17 128 bytes, so > Imagedisk won't work. > What is the preferred container format? Looks like the Australian > museum uses .td0 At my request about two weeks ago, Dave added support for mixed sector sizes to the Imagedisk file format specification, so as a container format it will work fine. However, he did not add support to the Imagedisk program, because a 765/8272-style FDC apparently can't format a track with mixed sector sizes. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 20:49:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:49:38 -0400 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4F653F32.8050004@neurotica.com> On 03/17/2012 08:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > As a Mac user, it pains me to say this, but the problem could simply be > that you're running it on Mac OS X. A few years ago someone did some > speed comparisons of Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. While I forget the > specific's, it boiled down to the problem is the Mach Micorkernel. Does > anyone else remember this, and have any pointers to the article, or more > current testing on this? I don't, but I can tell you that, as a years-long OS X aficionado, I ditched it in favor of Linux for primarily speed reasons. Every OS X "update" made the system even slower...almost like someone wanted me to go out and buy new hardware. Funny, that. No more OS X for me. I still like it and I still recommend it, but I don't use it for my own stuff anymore. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 17 20:55:03 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F653F32.8050004@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Mar 17, 12 09:49:38 pm" Message-ID: <201203180155.q2I1t34E12582992@floodgap.com> > > As a Mac user, it pains me to say this, but the problem could simply be > > that you're running it on Mac OS X. A few years ago someone did some > > speed comparisons of Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. While I forget the > > specific's, it boiled down to the problem is the Mach Micorkernel. Does > > anyone else remember this, and have any pointers to the article, or more > > current testing on this? > > I don't, but I can tell you that, as a years-long OS X aficionado, I > ditched it in favor of Linux for primarily speed reasons. Every OS X > "update" made the system even slower...almost like someone wanted me to > go out and buy new hardware. I'll echo this, because I tried a LiveCD of Lubuntu 12.04 on my 867MHz TiBook. It runs OS 9 very well but was poky in 10.4, which is why it still runs OS 9. The LiveCD also ran very well. Still, I use 10.4 because it's the best combination of Unix and Classic compatibility. If you don't need that, I'm leaning towards Linux myself for systems I don't have to run any Mac apps on. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. -- Salvor Hardin ----------- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 21:28:47 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:28:47 -0500 Subject: Reducing my DEC collection (UK) In-Reply-To: <4F64E6F0.1000403@neurotica.com> References: <4F638567.7050903@philpem.me.uk> <4F64E6F0.1000403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: i sometimes word stuff the way i say it i duno i was just expressing interest in the 11/70 by asking what the shipping would be i also had just worked a 14hr day in a crusher at a mine... and same with today and its all overtime... so yea bit zonked can't wait to be home where i can get back to cleaning my rl02's up and waiting for some rk05/ pertec goodies to show up :D On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/17/2012 01:11 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > >> the 11/70 wonders what the shipping on that to winnipeg canada would >>> be an >>> >> [...] >> >> I don't understand that sentence... How can a 11/70 wonder? Is that >> Canadian slang or the result of an aborted school term? >> > > Oh, give the guy a break. We all have to accept (because we cannot > change) the demise of the language at the hands of the younger generation. > It's unfortunate, but these guys (especially Adrian) are not pure evil > because of it. Adrian in particular has some awesome stuff (some of which > I'm pretty damn jealous of), he's doing cool stuff with it, and he's > learning fast. > > The kid's alright...please give him a break. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 17 21:36:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:36:19 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics Message-ID: After much work organizing and moving things around, I've got a photo gallery page showing the museum's collection as of March 15th, 2012: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 21:41:58 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:41:58 -0500 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: looks good :) tdk On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Richard wrote: > After much work organizing and moving things around, I've got a photo > gallery page showing the museum's collection as of March 15th, 2012: > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 17 22:17:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 23:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > "Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? If so, I disagree in at least a few respects. I *think* it has basically no FIFO, though it's possible I'm confusing it with something else - and that fuzzy recollection is talking about the part used by Sun, and I'm not sure whose part that was; perhaps AMD's more recent version is friendlier. Also, to quote NetBSD's z8530reg.h (version 1.12, in case anyone cares), * The damnable chip was designed to fit on Z80 I/O ports, and thus * has everything multiplexed out the wazoo. We have to select * a register, then read or write the register, and so on. Worse, * the parameter bits are scattered all over the register space. * This thing is full of `miscellaneous' control registers. The rant continues for another paragraph; I can quote the whole thing if anyone wants. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 22:31:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 23:31:31 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> On 03/17/2012 11:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >> "Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. > > Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? If so, I > disagree in at least a few respects. I *think* it has basically no > FIFO, though it's possible I'm confusing it with something else - and > that fuzzy recollection is talking about the part used by Sun, and I'm > not sure whose part that was; perhaps AMD's more recent version is > friendlier. Also, to quote NetBSD's z8530reg.h (version 1.12, in case > anyone cares), > > * The damnable chip was designed to fit on Z80 I/O ports, and thus > * has everything multiplexed out the wazoo. We have to select > * a register, then read or write the register, and so on. Worse, > * the parameter bits are scattered all over the register space. > * This thing is full of `miscellaneous' control registers. > > The rant continues for another paragraph; I can quote the whole thing > if anyone wants. Yup, that's the one, and, that's why it was a bad idea for Sun to use it as a friggin' console port that will only every do 9600 8/N/1 async ever in its whole life. ;) (well, and interface to kbd/mouse, but that's even less demanding!) All the "miscellaneous" control registers deal primarily with SDLC operation, which it does extremely well. AMD's isn't more recent or more "friendly"; it's a second source of the same chip. The '8530 is pretty damn friendly to being with, though. I've done five or six designs with that chip, some of which go VERY fast (megabits) and some of which used its synchronous capabilities. It is extremely powerful. Whining about how to access the control and status registers that mostly only get dealt with at initialization time is worrying over about twenty extra lines of code. "These kids today, I just don't know.." ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Sat Mar 17 22:37:38 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 05:37:38 +0200 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <0A05C14F0FC34DA59B77ABA2C4FD6B56@HP4CORE> Message-ID: <4F655882.3000301@conus.info> On 17.03.2012 22:16, Glen Slick wrote: > Maybe something close to this? > > http://web.archive.org/web/19980213050907/http://www.emulex.com/dcp/dcp-286sbc.html However, not mine board, here is different jumpers placement: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/io-cards/E-H/EMULEX-CORPORATION-Serial-DCP286I-SBC.html From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 17 23:09:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:09:11 -0700 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F655FE7.3060709@brouhaha.com> On 03/17/2012 08:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > AMD's isn't more recent or more "friendly"; it's a second source of > the same chip. Are you sure? AMD was definitely a second-source for the original NMOS part, but I thought AMD designed the Am85C30 as a CMOS replacemen, and licensed the CMOS version back to Zilog. I could be wrong. Both AMD and Zilog made various enhanced versions of the part that did add new features, which may or may not make it more friendly depending on your POV. I'm not certain that the enhanced parts from AMD and ZIlog, even if they bear the same part number, are actually completely compatible; I think the development diverged. One example is the 85230. I don't remember the others at the moment. I had to study all this at a job in the late 1990s. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 17 23:12:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> "Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. >> Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? If so, >> I disagree in at least a few respects. > Yup, that's the one, and, that's why it was a bad idea for Sun to use > it as a friggin' console port that will only every do 9600 8/N/1 > async ever in its whole life. ;) Har. The same chip is used for ttyb. And even ttya can have its parameters changed. > The '8530 is pretty damn friendly to being with, though. Not nearly as friendly as it could be. Some of it is spazzes which, as you say, just complicate init code (such as the mapping between the 0xc0 bits of write register 3 and character size). But some of it is real problems: no FIFO to speak of, a view of hardware flow control which means either wiring signals up to the `wrong' pins and compensating in software or disagreeing with almost everybody else about what signals drive flow control, a weird set of BRG pre-divisors which impose an unpleasantly low cap on the baudrate if you want reliable communication, software setting of hardware things like "we're using a directly-attached crystal to drive the BRG". Perhaps those are covered by your meaning of "awesome".... And then there are the interface things. In addition to the stuff mentioned above, I see reset bits in the same register as some interrupt control, most of the interrupt bits in the same register as the write-enable bit for another register, putting some of the channel B bits in channel A's registers...and possibly others I'm just not competent to notice. > I've done five or six designs with that chip, some of which go VERY > fast (megabits) and some of which used its synchronous capabilities. > It is extremely powerful. But a right mess of a design. I can't imagine any of what I cite above would be particularly difficult to fix or would require impairing its capabilities. > Whining about how to access the control and status registers that > mostly only get dealt with at initialization time is worrying over > about twenty extra lines of code. "These kids today, I just don't > know.." ;) Somehow, it's the "kids today" I'd expect to be dismissing as ignorable extra code bloat compelled by hardware insanities and people like us complaining about it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 23:15:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:15:11 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F655FE7.3060709@brouhaha.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <4F655FE7.3060709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F65614F.6080901@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2012 12:09 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 03/17/2012 08:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> AMD's isn't more recent or more "friendly"; it's a second source of >> the same chip. > > Are you sure? AMD was definitely a second-source for the original NMOS > part, but I thought AMD designed the Am85C30 as a CMOS replacemen, and > licensed the CMOS version back to Zilog. I could be wrong. Could be...still the same chip, at least to the level that I used it. (SDLC) I use the two interchangeably; I tend to put them in SBC designs. > Both AMD and Zilog made various enhanced versions of the part that did > add new features, which may or may not make it more friendly depending > on your POV. I'm not certain that the enhanced parts from AMD and ZIlog, > even if they bear the same part number, are actually completely > compatible; I think the development diverged. One example is the 85230. > I don't remember the others at the moment. I had to study all this at a > job in the late 1990s. Well, like I said, I use 'em interchangeably in my boards. They're compatible enough to that level. The 85230 is a bit different though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 17 23:21:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:21:37 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2012 12:12 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> "Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. >>> Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? If so, >>> I disagree in at least a few respects. >> Yup, that's the one, and, that's why it was a bad idea for Sun to use >> it as a friggin' console port that will only every do 9600 8/N/1 >> async ever in its whole life. ;) > > Har. The same chip is used for ttyb. And even ttya can have its > parameters changed. Sure it can. But does anyone run their consoles at anything other than 9600 8N1? Seriously? And how many people really did lots of serial I/O on ttyb, in such a way that they actually cared about the register layouts of the chip? >> The '8530 is pretty damn friendly to being with, though. > > Not nearly as friendly as it could be. By the standards of today, or when it was designed thirty years ago? > Some of it is spazzes which, as > you say, just complicate init code (such as the mapping between the > 0xc0 bits of write register 3 and character size). But some of it is > real problems: no FIFO to speak of, a view of hardware flow control > which means either wiring signals up to the `wrong' pins and > compensating in software or disagreeing with almost everybody else > about what signals drive flow control, a weird set of BRG pre-divisors > which impose an unpleasantly low cap on the baudrate if you want > reliable communication, software setting of hardware things like "we're > using a directly-attached crystal to drive the BRG". Perhaps those are > covered by your meaning of "awesome".. My meaning of "awesome" (though I said "fantastic") is that I've designed systems with this chip and it was really, really easy to deal with and performed extremely well. It's a descendant of the Z80 SIO, for which the same is true. How many systems have you designed with it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Mar 17 23:54:01 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:54:01 -0700 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F656A69.8080205@mail.msu.edu> On 3/17/2012 7:36 PM, Richard wrote: > After much work organizing and moving things around, I've got a photo > gallery page showing the museum's collection as of March 15th, 2012: > > Looks great, my only concern is that you may not have enough Octanes (or VT100s). :) - Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 17 23:58:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203180458.AAA04087@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Har. The same chip is used for ttyb. And even ttya can have its >> parameters changed. > Sure it can. But does anyone run their consoles at anything other > than 9600 8N1? Seriously? I don't - but I _have_ used plenty of other settings on ttyb. Including wanting some at high enough baud rates that I had to hack NetBSD's driver to use the chip's ?1 mode, which leads into the "weird set of BRG pre-divisors" hardware issue I mentioned below. > My meaning of "awesome" (though I said "fantastic") is that I've > designed systems with this chip and it was really, really easy to > deal with and performed extremely well. I'm glad you found it easy to deal with. I don't, especially not as compared to what it could be. > How many systems have you designed with it? None. Nor am I likely to; all the failings I listed an email or two ago mean I would likely select some other chip if I were looking for a standalone UART. So what? I _have_ hacked on the NetBSD driver for it, as I mentioned. Just because it satisfies _your_ needs doesn't mean it's not broken-as-designed for, for example, applications wanting normal RTS/CTS hardware flow control. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Mar 18 00:09:51 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 23:09:51 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: <4F656A69.8080205@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F656A69.8080205@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4F656A69.8080205 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Looks great, my only concern is that you may not have enough Octanes (or > VT100s). > > :) The octanes were mostly free and several of the VT100s are "parts for spares". Also, if you look closely they are not all VT100s. There is a VT180 in there and also a DECmate. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 18 00:23:58 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 22:23:58 -0700 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <201203180155.q2I1t34E12582992@floodgap.com> References: <201203180155.q2I1t34E12582992@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:55 PM -0700 3/17/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > As a Mac user, it pains me to say this, but the problem could simply be > > > that you're running it on Mac OS X. A few years ago someone did some > > > speed comparisons of Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. While I forget the > > > specific's, it boiled down to the problem is the Mach Micorkernel. Does > > > anyone else remember this, and have any pointers to the article, or more > > > current testing on this? > > > > I don't, but I can tell you that, as a years-long OS X aficionado, I > > ditched it in favor of Linux for primarily speed reasons. Every OS X >> "update" made the system even slower...almost like someone wanted me to >> go out and buy new hardware. > >I'll echo this, because I tried a LiveCD of Lubuntu 12.04 on my 867MHz >TiBook. It runs OS 9 very well but was poky in 10.4, which is why it still >runs OS 9. The LiveCD also ran very well. > >Still, I use 10.4 because it's the best combination of Unix and Classic >compatibility. If you don't need that, I'm leaning towards Linux myself for >systems I don't have to run any Mac apps on. Well, as my primary applications are Adobe Lightroom, Phase One's "Capture One", Adobe Photoshop, and a whole slew of Photoshop plugins, I only have one choice since I won't run Windows as a primary system at home. The nice thing about Mac OS X for me is it can run the UNIX apps I need, and thanks to Parallels I can run Win XP for the one game I want to run (so I've retired my Core 2 Duo Win XP system), and I can even run Linux, or OpenBSD for testing. The only other system I'm currently running at home is a Pentium III running OpenBSD. I'm running Mac OS X 10.6.8 on the current 2.4Ghz 8-core (dual) Mac Pro. I have 24Gb of RAM, and that's not enough. When I bought the system it came with 6Gb of RAM, and was actually slower than the Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac I had, which had 7Gb of RAM, and was running 10.4.x. It wasn't until I moved to 24Gb that the system was faster, how pathetic is that! OTOH, I ran both CPU's on the G5 at 100% most of the time, while this system barely breaks a sweat most months. As for Linux, as of January of this year, I've been running it for 20 years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 18 00:50:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 01:50:47 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <201203180458.AAA04087@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> <201203180458.AAA04087@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F6577B7.2080801@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2012 12:58 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> Har. The same chip is used for ttyb. And even ttya can have its >>> parameters changed. >> Sure it can. But does anyone run their consoles at anything other >> than 9600 8N1? Seriously? > > I don't - but I _have_ used plenty of other settings on ttyb. > Including wanting some at high enough baud rates that I had to hack > NetBSD's driver to use the chip's ?1 mode, which leads into the "weird > set of BRG pre-divisors" hardware issue I mentioned below. The big issue with Sun's design is that they used a crystal frequency that was way too low. I don't recall the details, but I do remember that. IF (and that's a big "if") that was why you needed to hack up the driver, surely that's not the Z8530's fault. >> My meaning of "awesome" (though I said "fantastic") is that I've >> designed systems with this chip and it was really, really easy to >> deal with and performed extremely well. > > I'm glad you found it easy to deal with. I don't, especially not as > compared to what it could be. Ok, so what UARTs are (or were at the time) better? I'll look into them, and if I agree, I will use them, and I will thank you. > I _have_ hacked on the NetBSD driver for it, as I mentioned. Just > because it satisfies _your_ needs doesn't mean it's not > broken-as-designed for, for example, applications wanting normal > RTS/CTS hardware flow control. Well...not trying to be contrary here, but as someone who uses async serial pretty much all day, every day, I can't even remember the last time I needed or used hardware flow control. I can't really speak to the Z8530's support of that one way or the other. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Mar 18 01:59:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 02:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F6577B7.2080801@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> <201203180458.AAA04087@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6577B7.2080801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203180659.CAA05600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm glad you found it easy to deal with. I don't, especially not as >> compared to what it could be. > Ok, so what UARTs are (or were at the time) better? I'll look into > them, and if I agree, I will use them, and I will thank you. Oh, they may be the best of a bad lot; I'm familiar with only a very few others, and the ones I'm familiar enough with to compare the software view of are all integrated into something larger, such as the 7750 SCIF or the MicroVAX-II console. The absence of anything better - even if that's what it is - doesn't make them good, except possibly in a relative sense. >> [...hardware flow control...] > Well...not trying to be contrary here, but as someone who uses async > serial pretty much all day, every day, I can't even remember the last > time I needed or used hardware flow control. And I can't recall the last time I wanted two stop bits or hardware parity checking. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a defect if a chip couldn't do them. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 02:14:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:14:40 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F653A15.1050901@brouhaha.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F653A15.1050901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F6528F0.593.651457@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Mar 2012 at 18:27, Eric Smith wrote: > At my request about two weeks ago, Dave added support for mixed sector > sizes to the Imagedisk file format specification, so as a container > format it will work fine. However, he did not add support to the > Imagedisk program, because a 765/8272-style FDC apparently can't > format a track with mixed sector sizes. Oh, sure it can. Witness the IBM XDF format floppies and the programs that can format and write them. You just have to be a little clever is all. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 02:17:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:17:45 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F650D2C.20901@bitsavers.org> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <000001cd0487$b2c678e0$18536aa0$@xs4all.nl>, <4F650D2C.20901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F6529A9.27423.67E5B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Mar 2012 at 15:16, Al Kossow wrote: > shows the 3.5" SS (9121) as being 16 x 256 so I wonder what the 128 > byte sector is, if anything that I'm seeing I've seen them, but AFAIK, the 128-byte sectors are not used for data storage, but some sort of media control--(e.g. sector flaw map?). --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 18 02:41:25 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:41:25 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F6528F0.593.651457@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F653A15.1050901@brouhaha.com> <4F6528F0.593.651457@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F6591A5.4080501@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > At my request about two weeks ago, Dave added support for mixed sector > sizes to the Imagedisk file format specification, so as a container > format it will work fine. However, he did not add support to the > Imagedisk program, because a 765/8272-style FDC apparently can't > format a track with mixed sector sizes. Chuck Guzis wrote: > Oh, sure it can. Witness the IBM XDF format floppies and the programs > that can format and write them. You just have to be a little clever is > all. --Chuck I think I know how to format with the last sector on a track different than the others, which is what Al would need for the HP discs, though I haven't actually tried it. I have no idea how one might reliably get any other mix of sector sizes on the same track when using a 765/8272-style FDC. A Google search didn't turn up any substantive details of the XDF format. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 18 02:58:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 03:58:49 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <201203180659.CAA05600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> <201203180458.AAA04087@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6577B7.2080801@neurotica.com> <201203180659.CAA05600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F6595B9.4020005@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2012 02:59 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I'm glad you found it easy to deal with. I don't, especially not as >>> compared to what it could be. >> Ok, so what UARTs are (or were at the time) better? I'll look into >> them, and if I agree, I will use them, and I will thank you. > > Oh, they may be the best of a bad lot; I'm familiar with only a very > few others, and the ones I'm familiar enough with to compare the > software view of are all integrated into something larger, such as the > 7750 SCIF or the MicroVAX-II console. Ahh, the DC319. I sure would like to find a few tubes of those lying around. I've never heard of the 7750, what is it? > The absence of anything better - even if that's what it is - doesn't > make them good, except possibly in a relative sense. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. As I've said, I've used that chip quite a bit, and I like it a lot. Yes, it's work to use, but this line of work isn't for the faint of heart to begin with. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave12 at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 06:14:54 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 06:14:54 -0500 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F6591A5.4080501@brouhaha.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F6528F0.593.651457@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F6591A5.4080501@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com> > > At my request about two weeks ago, Dave added support for mixed sector > > sizes to the Imagedisk file format specification, so as a container > > format it will work fine. However, he did not add support to the > > Imagedisk program, because a 765/8272-style FDC apparently can't format > > a track with mixed sector sizes. > > > Oh, sure it can. Witness the IBM XDF format floppies and the programs > > that can format and write them. You just have to be a little clever is > > all. --Chuck > > I think I know how to format with the last sector on a track different > than the others, which is what Al would need for the HP discs, though I > haven't actually tried it. I have no idea how one might reliably get any > other mix of sector sizes on the same track when using a 765/8272-style > FDC. You sure can't *FORMAT* disks with mixed sector sizes on a PC's FDC. To be clear, what I mean by this is that using only the format command to the 765, you can't create a disk with validly formed mixed sized sectors. What you can do when formatting is: - Lie about the sector size when supplying the data for the individual ID headers. - Fill in bogus head/sector data for sectors you don't want to use (and will overwrite) later. - Control the gap3 size for the entire track. - Write fewer sectors than will fill the track - Reset the FDC before it has completed writing the final sector on the track. But you can't actually create (with the format command) sectors of mixed sizes. It *IS* possible to write disks with mixed sector sizes, and it *IS* possible to format a disk such that it can be written with mixed sector sizes - but only in a very few limited cases of usefulness (XDF is one of these). The fact that all sectors have to be formatted the same size means that alll the sector headers have to be evenly spaced, which is usually NOT where you want them for a arbitrary mixed-sector-size disk. You can format the track with smaller sectors, lying about the sizes and filling in the ID data on sectors you won't use with values that won't match ... but due to the additional headers and gaps, you won't be able to overlay larger sectors into these "slots" without extra overhead - two 256 bytes sectors takes more space on the disk than a single 512 byte sector. This means that for most disk formats you will run out of space. It doesn't help that most controllers cannot do 128 bytes sectors in MFM (TESTFDC will check this for you). The last sector is a special case - because it's header will actually be where it is supposed to be. So theoretically you can just give it the required (different) sector size in the last ID field and you should be good. If the last sector is going to be bigger, this is easy - there will be a big gap after the last sector, and when you write the larger sector everything works (assuming the whole track still fits of course). If the last sector is smaller, and the original larger sector won't fit, it gets tricky - One would hope that the FDC would stop formatting at the index hole - you would have "bad data" which would be overwritten by the good smaller sector when you write it and everything would be good ... but that is not the case (at least with the PC I tried this on when I was looking into it). The FDC keeps formatting past the index hole, and overwrites the first sector on the track, So you need to kill the FDC after it has written the header, but before it reaches the end of the disk. If you are running the FDC interrupt driven, this wouldn't be too hard - wait a few microseconds after you feed it the last sector ID information than reset the FDC. But if you are running it DMA (which is what ImageDisk does) you don't have this detail of knowing when the last sector is being written - and since you don't know when it starts writing (depending on the position of the index hole), you don't know how long to wait. Unfortunately the case of the last sector being smaller than the rest, and a full-sized sector not fitting is probably the most common, as it makes sense when trying to fit the most data possible onto a track. In the 7 years since I started the ImageDisk project, I think that Erics request to expand the format to support mixed-sector-sized disks which I received a couple of weeks ago was the first request I've had about mixed sector sizes disks - and his was only for the format specification. Given the rarity of mixed-sector sizes disks in classic systems, the inability to handle arbitrary mixed-sector-sized disks with the PC's FDC, and the difficulty in handling the very few cases that it might be able to recreate, I have so far elected not to try and implement this capability in ImageDisk. IMHO handling of this type of disk is better done with a hardware disk imaging system. At some point if/when I have time, I'll look into adding the ability to read mixed-sector-sized disks into ImageDisk. It would also be fairly simple to allow it to re-write mixed-sector-sized images to disks that are already formatted. Having it try to format disks compatible with arbitrary mixed sector-sized disks would however be difficult, especially given the fact that ImageDisk's FDC driver is DMA. If/when it gets this far, I might then consider creating a separate stand-alone program using the FDC in interrupt mode, and allowing the user to tweak "most everything possible" to try and format a compatible disk on the PC ... or perhaps one of the more clever people on the list would like to take on this as a project ? Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Mar 18 06:14:07 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:14:07 +0100 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120318111407.GA2329@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 12:21:37AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/18/2012 12:12 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>>>"Posh" is a great way to put it! The 8530 is a fantastic chip. > >>>Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? If so, > >>>I disagree in at least a few respects. > >>Yup, that's the one, and, that's why it was a bad idea for Sun to use > >>it as a friggin' console port that will only every do 9600 8/N/1 > >>async ever in its whole life. ;) > > > >Har. The same chip is used for ttyb. And even ttya can have its > >parameters changed. > > Sure it can. But does anyone run their consoles at anything other > than 9600 8N1? Seriously? (raise :hand) We run the consoles of our kit @ 115200, because 9600 is just a pain in the posterior. But those are current server machines ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 18 08:05:33 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 06:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F6577B7.2080801@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Mar 18, 12 01:50:47 am" Message-ID: <201203181305.q2ID5XBX11468918@floodgap.com> > > I _have_ hacked on the NetBSD driver for it, as I mentioned. Just > > because it satisfies _your_ needs doesn't mean it's not > > broken-as-designed for, for example, applications wanting normal > > RTS/CTS hardware flow control. > > Well...not trying to be contrary here, but as someone who uses async > serial pretty much all day, every day, I can't even remember the last > time I needed or used hardware flow control. I can't really speak to > the Z8530's support of that one way or the other. I needed it for a Commodore 64 that was acting as a console. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of DeForest Kelley ----------------------------------------------- From alkopop79 at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 05:19:55 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:19:55 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Yepp, it took me a goog few weeks to realise that the LOAD mode of the 1802 is in fact the reset mode, an the Cosmac Elf's LOAD mode is the DMA IN mode of the microprocessor. I wish I knew that! Thank you for your kind help, Brent! Greg On 18 March 2012 00:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Idle state for RAM-R/W (20) should HIGH (read). > I expect idle state for RAM-OD (18) is also HIGH (RAM outputs disabled). > > I would suggest before trying to run a program you confirm that you are > able to load and examine memory. > > One of the subtle points here is that when loading/examining/running you > generally need to go 'through' the RESET state with the mode switches to > reset the internal address pointer to zero. > > Here's a load/examine test sequence: > > Load: > L1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 > address pointer=0) > L2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for WRITE/LOAD (*MP down) > L3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) > L4 - set data switches to 0001 0000, press STEP/*INPUT (load $10 into > mem-0) > L5 - set data switches to 0001 0001, press STEP/*INPUT (load $11 into > mem-1) > L6 - set data switches to 0001 0010, press STEP/*INPUT (load $12 into > mem-2) > > Examine: > E1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 > address pointer=0) > E2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for READ/EXAMINE (*MP up) > E3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) > E4 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0000 ($10) > E5 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0001 ($11) > E6 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0010 ($12) > > If you miss step L1, you won't know where you are actually loading into > memory. If you miss step E1, the examine steps (E4,E5,E6) will display > addresses 3,4,5 rather than displaying addresses 0,1,2. The same issue > applies when running a program, you normally have to reset state with the > mode switches so the program starts running at 0. > > I don't like the switch labels of the original Elf, they can be > misleading, but that's history. I relabelled/disambiguated them in my > schematic and unit, the * labels above are the original switch labels, > others are mine. > > > > On 2012 Mar 17, at 8:48 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display after I >> press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit work fine. >> However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and pressed INPUT >> and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. It didn't >> happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control >> circuit >> seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/write >> enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic state in >> the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be entered to >> the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of pins 18 and >> 20 >> (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when pressing >> the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. >> >> >> On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting >>> anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone >>> mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I assume i >>> just have to rewire the thing. >>> >>> On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: >>> >>> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 and >>>> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I spent a >>>> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to simulate >>>> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. But >>>> >>>> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing works. I >>>> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN pin >>>> is >>>> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can think >>>> of >>>> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the diodes >>>> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is >>>> that I >>>> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for some >>>> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll >>>> check >>>> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the HP >>>> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even >>>> though >>>> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins >>>> low. I >>>> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at >>>> least >>>> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. It's >>>> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and indispensable >>>> help! >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the >>>>> 4013 >>>>> reset (10). >>>>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and >>>>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the load >>>>> mode switch). >>>>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high as >>>>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already >>>>> tested >>>>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 18 08:07:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 06:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Mar 17, 12 10:23:58 pm" Message-ID: <201203181307.q2ID7QNa11010068@floodgap.com> > I'm running Mac OS X 10.6.8 on the current 2.4Ghz 8-core (dual) Mac > Pro. I have 24Gb of RAM, and that's not enough. When I bought the > system it came with 6Gb of RAM, and was actually slower than the > Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac I had, which had 7Gb of RAM, and was > running 10.4.x. It wasn't until I moved to 24Gb that the system was > faster, how pathetic is that! OTOH, I ran both CPU's on the G5 at > 100% most of the time, while this system barely breaks a sweat most > months. Interesting. My quad is usually running between 1-10% on any given core. But then I'm mostly in Terminal.app and TenFourFox, and occasionally Photoshop. The only high CPU thing it does frequently is act as a buildbot overnight. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm stuck in the fourth lotus position." - From rlaag at pacbell.net Sun Mar 18 10:22:02 2012 From: rlaag at pacbell.net (Robert Laag) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D17 - D37 console info? Message-ID: <1332084122.49767.YahooMailClassic@web180409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ARE THERE ANY PICTURES OF THE D17 FRONT PANEL, IF NOT, I HAVE ONE WE COULD PHOTOGRAPH... ?OR IF ANYONE WANTS A PICTURE... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 18 10:39:42 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 15:39:42 -0000 Subject: BitSavers DEC Archive Stuff Missing? Message-ID: <01d501cd051d$57b5b8d0$07212a70$@ntlworld.com> I was looking through some RSS feeds of stuff posted to BitSavers, like the following: dec :: dec archive :: 21383578 :: 94-006 003 01 1984-1987 :: 19850910 Business Entities My Definition Enclosures: 19850910_Business_Entities_My_Definition.pdf (31 KB) http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dec_archive/21383578/94-006_003_01_1984-1987/19 850910_Business_Entities_My_Definition.pdf But this link is dead, as are many others. Has this material been moved elsewhere? Regards Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 18 11:46:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:46:59 -0700 Subject: Autonetics D17 - D37 console info? In-Reply-To: <1332084122.49767.YahooMailClassic@web180409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1332084122.49767.YahooMailClassic@web180409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F661183.9060501@bitsavers.org> On 3/18/12 8:22 AM, Robert Laag wrote: > ARE THERE ANY PICTURES OF THE D17 FRONT PANEL, IF NOT, I HAVE ONE WE COULD PHOTOGRAPH... OR IF ANYONE WANTS A PICTURE... > I don't think there are any good quality photographs. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 18 12:42:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mixed sector sizes (Was: Preferred image format for HP single-sided In-Reply-To: <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F6528F0.593.651457@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F6591A5.4080501@brouhaha.com> <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20120318102541.K88810@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 Mar 2012, Dave Dunfield wrote: > In the 7 years since I started the ImageDisk project, I think that Erics > request to expand the format to support mixed-sector-sized disks > which I received a couple of weeks ago was the first request I've > had about mixed sector sizes disks - and his was only for the > format specification. In addition to that XDF and HP format, which in my limited experience with it, seems to be able to do OK WITHOUT the extraneous sector, I can think of one other mixed sector size: Ensoniq Mirage ALthough I would strongly urge you not to give it excessive priority, . . . I can see some [rare] need for handling them for emergency data recovery. The guy with the Ensoniq was able to "FORMAT" a disk by "cloning" a disk using an Option Board, and then reading and writing sectors with INT13h (plus 1Eh, of course, for the non 512 byte ones) From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Mar 18 12:45:02 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:45:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801F12@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> <4F615061.10407@brouhaha.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801F12@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Mar 2012, Rich Alderson wrote: > Actually, the LP20 can also be used in the Unibus on a KS-10 system. > Unfortunately for us, none of our KSes have an LP20. My KS10 has an LP20. The board set is M8586, M8571, and M8585. If you can tell me how to get the info you need without wrecking it, I can try that. Alternately, as I am very unlikely to ever possess the actual printer (and ITS doesn't have a driver for it anyway), if you want the interface itself, I'll trade it for one of your massbus disk emulators! :) Seriously though, let me know how I can help. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 18 13:56:09 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:56:09 +0100 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120318195609.6d863f9a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:49:28 +0100 Jos Dreesen wrote: > ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) If you use gcc then you have gprof(1). Maybe you can spot the problem with this? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 14:02:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:02:28 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F6591A5.4080501@brouhaha.com>, <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2012 at 6:14, Dave Dunfield wrote: > What you can do when formatting is: > > - Lie about the sector size when supplying the data for the individual > ID headers. > - Fill in bogus head/sector data for sectors you don't want to use > (and will overwrite) later. > - Control the gap3 size for the entire track. > - Write fewer sectors than will fill the track > - Reset the FDC before it has completed writing the final sector > on the track. It's the first that will work the best. In fact, all 765-family controllers will FORMAT a 128-byte-per-sector track in MFM; it's just that they don't do so well reading or writing them (depending on the controller variation). But what the heck, if you're going to verify a track by reading after formatting, you might as well write it too, producing a track with 9 512 sectors and one 128-byte one. The controller will normally stop formatting at the index if it is between sectors. If however, it's in the middle of a sector, it will continue formatting until the end of the sector has been written, then honor the end-of-track condition. (This is a handy way to "erase" a track--simply program in a too- large sector size and format--the format operation will "eat its tail" and leave a track with no address marks whatsoever. FWIW, XDF uses a track (but for the first) with 1 8KB sector, 1 2KB sector, 1 1KB sector and 1 512 byte sector = 23 512 byte sectors. It also uses track-to-track skewing, so that the 8K sector moves around relative to the index. Pretty slick, especially when compared to Microsoft's simplistic SDF of 21 512 byte sectors per track. But heck, anyone who's played with the FORMAT capabilities of AnaDisk, written about 25 years ago, surely has discovered that. In retrospect, I don't know why I ever added that capability--no one used or understood it, particularly that of being able to *compute* any IDAM field on the fly. Thankfully, those days are gone for me. Now we struggle with people who don't understand how to use DOS or any other command-line-driven interface--we gotta have pichurs... --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 18 14:57:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:57:50 -0700 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F663E3E.5090902@brouhaha.com> Gergely L?rincz wrote: > it took me a goog few weeks to realise that the LOAD mode of the 1802 > is in fact the reset mode, an the Cosmac Elf's LOAD mode is the DMA IN mode > of the microprocessor. I wish I knew that! Not so fast. LOAD mode and RESET are two different things, and the LOAD mode of the 1802 is NOT the same as RESET. LOAD mode is entered by asserting WAIT (driving it low) during RESET, but just being in RESET is not by itself LOAD mode. This is true whether it's an ELf or some other 1802 system. In LOAD mode, whether an 1802 or otherwise, you are not in "DMA IN" mode; there isn't even such a "mode". you have to be in actual LOAD mode, as defined by the CLEAR and WAIT inputs both being low, then pulse the DMA IN signal (pin 38) to strobe each byte. If you try to just use DMA IN mode for loading, without being in LOAD mode, you'll have problems. From the datasheet (DIP pin numbers): pin 3 pin 2 CLEAR WAIT Mode ----- ----- ---- low low LOAD low high RESET high low PAUSE high high RUN CLEAR, WAIT, and DMA IN are active low, shown with an overbar in the datasheet. The "low" and "high" levels refer to the actual voltages, low being near Vss (ground), and high being near Vdd (positive supply). From dave12 at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 16:11:45 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:11:45 -0500 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com>, <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> On 18 Mar 2012 at 12:02, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > What you can do when formatting is: > > > > - Lie about the sector size when supplying the data for the individual > > ID headers. > > - Fill in bogus head/sector data for sectors you don't want to use > > (and will overwrite) later. > > - Control the gap3 size for the entire track. > > - Write fewer sectors than will fill the track > > - Reset the FDC before it has completed writing the final sector > > on the track. > > It's the first that will work the best. In fact, all 765-family > controllers will FORMAT a 128-byte-per-sector track in MFM; it's just that > they don't do so well reading or writing them (depending on the controller > variation). Cool - I didn't know that - I thought it was "all or nothing" when it came to 128/MFM. > But what the heck, if you're going to verify a track by reading after > formatting, you might as well write it too, producing a track with 9 512 > sectors and one 128-byte one. But don't you run into problems with the header positions in some layouts? To do this on a general basis, you would have to be able to put 256, 512, 1024 etc. byte sectors into some multiple of 128 byte sectors - for some of those it works out to significantly more space than the same sized sector on a normally formatted track... I agree that it might not be too hard to write a program to format a disk with a known layout that works out reasonably with 128 byte sectors "underneath", but I'd like to be able to do the best possible general solution to mixed sector sizes. > The controller will normally stop formatting at the index if it is > between sectors. If however, it's in the middle of a sector, it will > continue formatting until the end of the sector has been written, then > honor the end-of-track condition. Have you ever tried resetting the FDC after it has written the last header but before the index hole? If this would work, it would let you have normal sector spacing for the cases where the format is n large sectors followed by 1 small one ... Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From dave12 at dunfield.com Sun Mar 18 16:11:44 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:11:44 -0500 Subject: Mixed sector sizes (Was: Preferred image format for HP single-sided In-Reply-To: <20120318102541.K88810@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65B59E.5660.3F01A3@dave12.dunfield.com>, <20120318102541.K88810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F664180.13705.2616DCB@dave12.dunfield.com> > In addition to that XDF and HP format, which in my limited experience with > it, seems to be able to do OK WITHOUT the extraneous sector, I can think > of one other mixed sector size: Ensoniq Mirage > > > ALthough I would strongly urge you not to give it excessive priority, . . > . I can see some [rare] need for handling them for emergency data > recovery. Now that I've added support for variable sector sizes to the spec. When I get some time I'll look into at least getting ImageDisk to read mixed- size disks - reading is much more important that writing when it comes to saving old data - at least you have the data to work with. It will be a while however... Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 18 15:06:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:06:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F650D2C.20901@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Mar 17, 12 03:16:12 pm Message-ID: > shows the 3.5" SS (9121) as being 16 x 256 so I wonder what the 128 byte sector is, if anything > that I'm seeing All the ofifical HP docuemtnation that I have (for example the programming manuals for the 9121, the techref fro the HP150 which used the HP9121) confirm this. 16 sectors/track, but rather fewer tracks than uyou might expect (70, IITC, numbered 0-69). The 9121 was desigend ot be software conmpatible with the older 5.25" drice units, which had 35 cylidners, 2 heads. Ther was a way to tell hem apart, but it was not obvious, so machiens that expected the 5.25" drive could use a 9121 too. I have no idea waht the extra sector you're seeing is. Does it appear to contain data (any readable text?). Or is it jsut 0xE5s or 0s' or something? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 18 15:45:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:45:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F651A07.4090700@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 17, 12 04:11:03 pm Message-ID: > > Al Kossow wrote: > > shows the 3.5" SS (9121) as being 16 x 256 so I wonder what the 128 > > byte sector is, if anything > > that I'm seeing > > The HP drives keep some medium wear metadata on the disk, and eventually > are supposed to report to the system that the medium should be > replaced. I have a vague recollection that there's an extra sector for > that. Maybe that's the 128-byte sector you're seeing? I thought thr wear figure, along with the bad track replacement data was stored on an inner track, one that is not used for user data. Certainly the drice seeks to an inner cylinder for some reason every so often, I assume to update the wear count. What would be the reson for storing the wear count on every track? Somebody should disasemble the firmware of these HP drives. It wouldn't be iimpossible, the firmware EPROM is the only programmed IC (no other PROMs or PALs or anyhting like that), there are no custom ICs (the disk controller and HPIB chip are standard, the processor is a 6809) and there are cheamtics so the addresses are all known. Then we'd know for sure what the thing stored where... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 18 15:48:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:48:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kryoflux - a reaction from a potential new customer In-Reply-To: <4F651D4D.5060802@kryoflux.com> from "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." at Mar 18, 12 00:25:01 am Message-ID: > > If the person making this statement can make boards for EUR 20.- each > we'd be delighted to buy from him. For sure such price would be possible > when making 100,000+ boards. We do runs of 100, we have to pay for > electronics recycling (WEEE) registration, we pay tax, etc. I am sure > hobbyists only doing a few boards can get around such things, we can't. Well, I'm a hobbyist... And I know the cost of making electronic prototypes... My 'rule of thunmb' is to add up the cost of the main xomponents (major ICs, etc) and multiply by _three_ to cover things like connectors, prototyping board, passibves, etc. And that ceosn;'t inlcude the (non-zero) cost of soldering it, or my time in putting it together. Having had a brief look at your scheamtic, I couldn't turn one out for 20 Euro. Period. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 18 16:11:34 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 14:11:34 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F664F86.2040505@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > What would be the reson for storing the wear count on every track? I didn't say that they stored it on every track. I suspect that it's in the extra sector on that track. The rest of them are probably unused. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 18 16:36:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 14:36:52 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F65F304.12559.47A87B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Mar 2012 at 16:11, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Cool - I didn't know that - I thought it was "all or nothing" when it > came to 128/MFM. The problem with the 765 core and 128 byte MFM is that the whole sector doesn't get transferred--only the first 80 (decimal) bytes. Don't know why that is, unless it ties into some glitch in interpreting the N field in the address header when N=0. Playing with DTL (has meaning when N=0) doesn't seem to matter. National fixed this when the 847x chips came out, but all the other manufacturers didn't bother. Really frustratig was dealing with Intel when they brought out the AA- 1 version of the 82077--it broke FM writing. When I spoke with an applications engineer at Intel, he came back with the response that FM was obsolete and they weren't going to add the bug to their list. Microsolutions discovered this the hard way and recalled the Compaticards that escaped with the 82077AA-1 chips and replaced them with PC8477s. > But don't you run into problems with the header positions in some > layouts? To do this on a general basis, you would have to be able to > put 256, 512, 1024 etc. byte sectors into some multiple of 128 byte > sectors - for some of those it works out to significantly more space > than the same sized sector on a normally formatted track... It takes some careful pencil-on-envelope work, but you know the various gap sizes in advance--all are fixed except for the inter- sector (write-splice area) gap. Recall that the XDF formatter moves the physical location of sector 1 on each track to "skew" things, so it can be done. I suspect that it's entirely possible to write a little bit of code to calculate the inter-sector gap (and perhaps whether or not to use 128 or 256 byte sectors during format) for a lot of different combinations of sector size--but certainly not all. FWIW, at least one copy-protection scheme used a track of 128-byte- formatted sectors with N=2 in the ID fields, so that a program attempting to copy by surveying the track with READ ID commands would be presented with an impossible task. It's also fun to layout a track with N=, say 6 in the first sector of a 128-byte sector format. When you read it, you get a CRC error, of course, but you also get the rest of the track, address marks and all, so you can take a look at what the FDC is actually putting down. > Have you ever tried resetting the FDC after it has written the last > header but before the index hole? I've heard of that being done on some copy-protection schemes, but the timing could be a bear. I have heard of a package that uses both drives--one with a normally formatted floppy in one drive and a "foreign" floppy in the other with MFM or FM data, but with incompatible address headers switching drive select to pick up some data from the foreign floppy. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 18 17:02:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 15:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F65F304.12559.47A87B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F65F304.12559.47A87B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 Mar 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The problem with the 765 core and 128 byte MFM is that the whole > sector doesn't get transferred--only the first 80 (decimal) bytes. I can't help speculating whether that could be something as ridiculously improbably simple as an engineer using too high-level a tool, and leaving off the 'h' in "80h" From snowen at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 17:38:43 2012 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:38:43 +0000 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have a small stack of single-sided disks that I need to image, and > didn't realize > that they are 18 sector with 0-16 256 bytes and 17 128 bytes, so Imagedisk > won't work. > What is the preferred container format? Looks like the Australian museum > uses .td0 > I added IMD mixed-sector size support to SAMdisk ( http://simonowen.com/samdisk/) recently, so you could give that a try if you have a Windows machine. Try: SAMdisk a: yourimage.imd (add -h0 if the disk is single-sided) It should handle reading and writing most PC-compatible soft-sector formats, if your FDC is up to it, including your existing .td0 images. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 21:26:19 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:26:19 -0400 Subject: IBM 083 maybe available Message-ID: I have a lead on an IBM 083 card sorter, located on the east coast. I do not know the condition. I had hoped it was an 084, but no such luck, and I already have two 083s. Any interest out there? -- Will From evan at snarc.net Sun Mar 18 21:50:17 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:50:17 -0400 Subject: IBM 083 maybe available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> > I have a lead on an IBM 083 card sorter, located on the east coast. I do not know the condition. I had hoped it was an 084, but no such > luck, and I already have two 083s. Any interest out there? > > -- > Will We're interested for the MARCH museum. We have an 082 but the previous owner gutted it and used it as a bar. :( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 21:55:33 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:55:33 -0400 Subject: IBM 083 maybe available In-Reply-To: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: > We're interested for the MARCH museum. We have an 082 but the previous owner > gutted it and used it as a bar. ? :( OK, I will see if they will donate it. If not, it could probably be had for not much money. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:14:57 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 21:14:57 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, Message-ID: Hi I'd had this AppleIIe for a number of years but no disk or operating system. It didn't have a SuperSerialCard ( SSC ) so transfering data would have been fun. I'd recently found that I could have used the audio through the cassette but I'm told it is slow and would take a long time to do simple stuff. When I got my IIe it came with one goodie. It had a QuikLoader board. I'd been searching for a manual on it for quite some time I'd finally found a fellow in France that had it and the disk set that goes with it, just a few weeks ago. I discovered that the EPROMs on it had both DOS3.3 as well as ProDos Having DOS3.3, I could at least INIT disk. Still, I needed the SSC to do serious down loads. Before I'd done much with it, I'd recreated a SwyftCard from a proto board and parts. It has been fun but only useful as an editor for non-standard disk. Well, I'd finally located a SSC and only needed to make up a cable from the 10 pin header to a serial connector. I then started searchng for some code to download. I found that there was quite a bit but all in squished format. The ADT program only take expanded images. On seaching some more I found that the CiderPress tool would expand it for me. Now for the next problem. Getting the client software onto the Apple. My windows machine has no serial port and I have no idea where the USB to serial adapter has got to since my last move. I know it'll show up so reluctant to buy another. The machine I intend to use for the transfers has DOS but no com software. After some thinking, I decided to enter it by hand onto the Apple ( not a good thought though ). After several hours of typing, I finally got it all entered. Luckily, I used the DOS3.3 on the QuikLoader to save a copy. On first attempt, it just crashed. I realizes I needed a way to check the code. One the PC sde I quickly though to gether a check sum program that displayed the code offset, the byte abd the sum. This was kind of specialized to match the format of the file that came with ADT. On the Apple side, a quick check of the manuals showed that the BASIC might interfer some with the location used by ADT so I loaded it at $4000. Nice that Apples BASIC/DOS lets one do that. I wrote a similar program on the Apple, to do the same as the PC program ( in BASIC ). I was astounded by how slow the Apple was compared to a 10 year old laptop. I could do the entire check sum on the PC about as fast as I could type the return. On the Apple, it was slow enough that I needed to partition it. I'd thought I'd only made a few minor errors. In earlier days, I'd entered bigger programs with no errors. As I got to work comparing check sums, I realized that age my have caught up with me. I found at least 3 lines that I'd most likely type the wrong address for. All totaled, about 48 errors in 3K of code. Thank all that I had a disk to save images on. I finally got ADT up and running. Down loaded some useful software and had a good time. The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put up with it I don't know. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 23:33:24 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 23:33:24 -0500 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >> "Posh" is a great way to put it! ?The 8530 is a fantastic chip. > > Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? Yes, and on most/all 68K Macs. > If so, I > disagree in at least a few respects. ?I *think* it has basically no > FIFO... It has no FIFO. It came from an era before serial chips routinely had FIFOs, but I've used it at 56K and faster with no problems - your CPU just has to keep up, which I know was a problem in the DOS era with 8250 and 16450 serial chips. >?Also, to quote NetBSD's z8530reg.h (version 1.12, in case > anyone cares), > > ?* The damnable chip was designed to fit on Z80 I/O ports, and thus > ?* has everything multiplexed out the wazoo. That is true. It _is_ possible to stick it on a 68000 bus, but some glue logic, including, possibly wait-states or careful driver crafting may be required. > ...?We have to select > ?* a register, then read or write the register, and so on. ?Worse, > ?* the parameter bits are scattered all over the register space. > ?* This thing is full of `miscellaneous' control registers. It is full of registers. You don't just fiddle one thing one time, then slam data in and out. It's a very complex dual-port USART that will do Async, Bisync, SNA, and more. We used them on the later models of COMBOARDs, though to a fraction of their capability. Older models had a COM5025 sync serial chip (because we modeled that section after some DEC sync serial cards), so when we switched to the Z8530, we only ever used the secondary port for async debugging. One thing that complicated _our_ design was that we started using the Z8530 very early in its evolution, so we were hanging either a 4MHz or 6MHz part off of an 8MHz 68000. We had to inject wait states (via registered PALs and /DTACK, IIRC) _and_ we had to ensure we didn't jam up the inner workings of the Z8530 by hitting the registers too fast. We had NOPs in the driver between selecting and using the registers. Perhaps 8MHz parts would be easier to use now. Once we worked out what was needed, it was a solid, reliable chip, but I will admit that our embedded application guys did have a few fits trying to port front-end code from the older models that expected a minimal-option simple chip like the COM5025. -ethan From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 18:21:19 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:21:19 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?Richard > Subject:?Re: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics > > The octanes were mostly free and several of the VT100s are "parts for > spares". ?Also, if you look closely they are not all VT100s. ?There is > a VT180 in there and also a DECmate. The VAXserver 8000 on your wanted list should be VAXstation 8000. I have one, but it is missing the E&S graphics subsystem. I didn't see any Calcomp System 25 Workstations in your collection. The RICM has LOTS of them. -- Michael Thompson From system11 at bigpond.com Sat Mar 17 02:33:05 2012 From: system11 at bigpond.com (JENNY & ROYCE SMITH) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:33:05 +1100 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <4F65281D.1010402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: The zero button is complementary binary, removing spikes changes the number to a higher number, but sorry I cant remember which does which. Look at the other buttons if you have a spare zero button. Royce Smith. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012 11:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug Does anyone have a unit select plug for an RL01/02 drive, for unit 2, that they can spare? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 09:06:56 2012 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:06:56 -0600 Subject: DECnet for RSX? In-Reply-To: <4F6523E3.8050501@neurotica.com> References: <4F6523E3.8050501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have an untried/untested image of a tape labelled: BB-M448B-BC_DECNET11M+_V2_netkit_1984.tap.gz Is this of interest? --barrym On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Anybody have a distribution of DECnet for RSX that they might be able to > share? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 01:36:25 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 00:36:25 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > The VAXserver 8000 on your wanted list should be VAXstation 8000. Fixed. > I have one, but it is missing the E&S graphics subsystem. Yeah, there weren't many made at all and ones with the E&S graphics are even harder to find. > I didn't see any Calcomp System 25 Workstations in your collection. > The RICM has LOTS of them. I wasn't aware of these systems. According to Computerworld, Calcomp sold off the division after having an installed base of only 800 units in order to avoid competing with its own peripherals customers. This seems to be a workstation introduced in 1984. What kind of graphics environment did it have? 1984 is too early for X11 and also I think too early for X10. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 19 02:27:11 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:27:11 +0100 Subject: DEC LP20 backplane wiring diagrams In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801B2F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F6149B4.7080305@brouhaha.com> <4F615061.10407@brouhaha.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D801F12@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20120319072711.GA13289@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 12:45:02PM -0500, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Thu, 15 Mar 2012, Rich Alderson wrote: > > >Actually, the LP20 can also be used in the Unibus on a KS-10 system. > >Unfortunately for us, none of our KSes have an LP20. > > My KS10 has an LP20. The board set is M8586, M8571, and M8585. > > If you can tell me how to get the info you need without wrecking it, I can > try that. Alternately, as I am very unlikely to ever possess the actual > printer (and ITS doesn't have a driver for it anyway), if you want > the interface itself, I'll trade it for one of your massbus disk > emulators! :) I have access to two KL10(2065) and one KS10, all of them in storage. I don't know if they have the LP20 and finding out means moving a lot of heavy gear arround. Perhaps there is some documentation as well, but lots of other boxes in the way. So, if the other options fall through I'll bite the bullet and find out. Also interrested in a massbus disk emulator :) Cheers, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 02:34:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 03:34:48 -0400 Subject: DECnet for RSX? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6523E3.8050501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F66E198.2010501@neurotica.com> Ahh, thank you, but I have that exact same file here. We probably got it from the same place. ;) I'd assumed that it was for RSX11M+ only, due to the name, and I'm actually looking for it for non-+. Thanks, though! -Dave On 03/18/2012 10:06 AM, B M wrote: > I have an untried/untested image of a tape labelled: > BB-M448B-BC_DECNET11M+_V2_netkit_1984.tap.gz > > Is this of interest? > > --barrym > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Anybody have a distribution of DECnet for RSX that they might be able to >> share? >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 19 02:43:23 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:43:23 +0100 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120319074322.GA14627@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 08:36:19PM -0600, Richard wrote: > After much work organizing and moving things around, I've got a photo > gallery page showing the museum's collection as of March 15th, 2012: > Lovely collection of SGI machines! The Jurrasic Classic looks to be in great shape. /P From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 19 03:03:16 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 01:03:16 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, Message-ID: <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> dwight elvey wrote: > The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really > slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put > up with it I don't know. We put up with it back in the late 1970s because none of the common, inexpensive microcomputers available at the time were any faster. And although the Atari 800 had better graphics, it had far worse I/O. Even the 4 MHz Z80 systems and 5 MHz 8088 systems weren't much faster, because the 6502 is more cycle-efficient than either. It really wasn't until the 286 era that it became commonplace for microcomputers to be significantly faster than the Apple II. Of course, by then there were also faster Apple II models, but that was about the end of the line for general-purpose microcomputers using the 6502, while the x86 was still being aggressively developed. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Mar 19 03:24:12 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:24:12 +1300 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: Interesting story Dwight, Good one. Cheers Terry (tezza) On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 5:14 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I'd had this AppleIIe for a number of years but no > disk or operating system. > It didn't have a SuperSerialCard ( SSC ) so transfering data would > have been fun. I'd recently found that I could have used the audio > through the cassette but I'm told it is slow and would take > a long time to do simple stuff. > When I got my IIe it came with one goodie. It had a QuikLoader > board. I'd been searching for a manual on it for quite some time > I'd finally found a fellow in France that had it and the disk set that > goes with it, just a few weeks ago. > I discovered that the EPROMs on it had both DOS3.3 as well as ProDos > Having DOS3.3, I could at least INIT disk. Still, I needed the SSC > to do serious down loads. > Before I'd done much with it, I'd recreated a SwyftCard from a proto > board and parts. It has been fun but only useful as an editor for > non-standard disk. > Well, I'd finally located a SSC and only needed to make up a cable > from the 10 pin header to a serial connector. > I then started searchng for some code to download. I found that > there was quite a bit but all in squished format. The ADT program > only take expanded images. On seaching some more I found that > the CiderPress tool would expand it for me. > Now for the next problem. Getting the client software onto the > Apple. My windows machine has no serial port and I have no idea > where the USB to serial adapter has got to since my last move. > I know it'll show up so reluctant to buy another. > The machine I intend to use for the transfers has DOS but no > com software. > After some thinking, I decided to enter it by hand onto the Apple > ( not a good thought though ). > After several hours of typing, I finally got it all entered. Luckily, > I used the DOS3.3 on the QuikLoader to save a copy. On first > attempt, it just crashed. > I realizes I needed a way to check the code. One the PC sde I > quickly though to gether a check sum program that displayed > the code offset, the byte abd the sum. This was kind of specialized > to match the format of the file that came with ADT. > On the Apple side, a quick check of the manuals showed that > the BASIC might interfer some with the location used by ADT > so I loaded it at $4000. Nice that Apples BASIC/DOS lets one do that. > I wrote a similar program on the Apple, to do the same as the > PC program ( in BASIC ). > I was astounded by how slow the Apple was compared to a 10 year > old laptop. I could do the entire check sum on the PC about as fast > as I could type the return. On the Apple, it was slow enough that > I needed to partition it. > I'd thought I'd only made a few minor errors. In earlier days, I'd > entered bigger programs with no errors. > As I got to work comparing check sums, I realized that age my > have caught up with me. I found at least 3 lines that I'd most > likely type the wrong address for. All totaled, about 48 errors > in 3K of code. > Thank all that I had a disk to save images on. > I finally got ADT up and running. Down loaded some useful > software and had a good time. > The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really > slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put > up with it I don't know. > Dwight > From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Mar 19 03:18:32 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:18:32 +0100 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F66EBD8.9000801@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 18.03.2012 21:45, schrieb Tony Duell: > Somebody should disasemble the firmware of these HP drives. It wouldn't > be iimpossible, the firmware EPROM is the only programmed IC (no other > PROMs or PALs or anyhting like that), there are no custom ICs (the disk > controller and HPIB chip are standard, the processor is a 6809) and there > are cheamtics so the addresses are all known. Then we'd know for sure > what the thing stored where... Where is information on this, including the EPROM dump? -- Holger From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Mar 19 07:00:40 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:00:40 +0000 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120319120040.GA10739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 09:49:28PM +0100, Jos Dreesen wrote: > ....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, on the > exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it does under > either Ubuntu or Windows ? > > ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) I'd guess that it's different compiler options, or different #defines and other pre-processor malarkey. Or *the same* #defines that just happen to optimise for one platform and not the other. You're gonna have to profile the code. Unfortunately I'm not aware of anything that will work on both Linux and OS X. -- David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice Fashion label: n: a liferaft for personalities which lack intrinsic buoyancy From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 19 07:26:30 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:26:30 -0500 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <20120319120040.GA10739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> <20120319120040.GA10739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <201203191241.q2JCfVaY030398@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:00 AM 3/19/2012, David Cantrell wrote: >I'd guess that it's different compiler options, or different #defines >and other pre-processor malarkey. Or *the same* #defines that just >happen to optimise for one platform and not the other. I bet a doughnut on console I/O. - John From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 19 07:56:06 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:56:06 +0000 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:14 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > ?The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really > slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put > up with it I don't know. It was faster than the TI 99/4 basic... (; I used to write things in Integer basic if I could get away with it. It was much faster. Failing that, I had an Applesoft "compiler". Just about anything that required any speed you'd do in assembler. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 08:14:13 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 06:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <20120319120040.GA10739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> from David Cantrell at "Mar 19, 12 12:00:40 pm" Message-ID: <201203191314.q2JDEDio11534344@floodgap.com> > > ....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, on the > > exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it does under > > either Ubuntu or Windows ? > > > > ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) > > I'd guess that it's different compiler options, or different #defines > and other pre-processor malarkey. Or *the same* #defines that just > happen to optimise for one platform and not the other. > > You're gonna have to profile the code. Unfortunately I'm not aware of > anything that will work on both Linux and OS X. I'd run it through Shark.app on the Mac, myself. That's quite useful for finding things like that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Always proofreed you writing. ---------------------------------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 08:59:43 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 06:59:43 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , , <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Hi Eric I'm not knocking the processor. I used to write embedded code for 6502s and Z80s, years ago. You are correct that the compact code of the 6502 was often a winner. It is just that the BASIC running on the Apple IIe was really bad. Even the simple code to run the check sum ( less than 10 lines of code ) was enough to put one to sleep. The good part was that I could ^S the screen and stop when I wanted to compare a smaller block of bytes. On the laptop, I'd have had to put periodic delays. It was easier to just set the terminal value and run the entire code. I could be wrong but it seems that the BASIC code on my Poly88 was faster ( after a 20 minute cassette load ). I know that some BASIC code was slowed by the search used to do things like GOTO and GOSUB. I recall writng BASIC code on a powersupply tester and putting all the subroutines at the begining of the code to speed things up. I just find the thought of writing a business application with this slow a BASIC would have been tough. I'd have made 90% of the code in assembler. Apple's inefficient use of page0 is another thing. There are many variables that might be used, maybe, once in 100000 code executions. Some were only used once to initialize hardware. Things like baud rates and such had no place on page0. One could tell that the 6502 was a great embedded processor. I enjoyed using it. Dwight > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > dwight elvey wrote: > > The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really > > slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put > > up with it I don't know. > We put up with it back in the late 1970s because none of the common, > inexpensive microcomputers available at the time were any faster. And > although the Atari 800 had better graphics, it had far worse I/O. > > Even the 4 MHz Z80 systems and 5 MHz 8088 systems weren't much faster, > because the 6502 is more cycle-efficient than either. It really wasn't > until the 286 era that it became commonplace for microcomputers to be > significantly faster than the Apple II. Of course, by then there were > also faster Apple II models, but that was about the end of the line for > general-purpose microcomputers using the 6502, while the x86 was still > being aggressively developed. > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 09:25:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:25:21 -0400 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , , <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <76C27E10-D0F9-4ED5-88C9-6CC3E5740235@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2012, at 9:59 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Apple's inefficient use of page0 is another thing. There > are many variables that might be used, maybe, > once in 100000 code executions. Some were only > used once to initialize hardware. Things like baud rates > and such had no place on page0. Agreed in a sense, but a lot of Apple's use of zero-page locations was an attempt to conserve ROM space. Each peripheral card only has 256 bytes of address space available for ROM (if you're using the Apple II's built- in address decoding, anyway); each zero-page access takes a byte less than its absolute equivalent, which can add up. If you've never looked at the disassembly of the Disk II card's ROM, try it sometime. It's pretty impressive; it initializes the GCR decoding table, steps to track zero and reads off the first sector (and jumps to it) all in under 256 bytes of code. It makes some clever use of known ROM locations to do so, which isn't the best idea (they had to work around that when updating the Monitor ROM for the II+/Autostart ROM), but it made it work. > One could tell that the 6502 was a great embedded > processor. I enjoyed using it. As 8-bit micros go, I prefer the 6809, but it's halfway to 16-bit. The 6502 is far and away my next favorite, and certainly one of the most interesting chip designs of that era. - Dave From george at rachors.com Mon Mar 19 09:33:52 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:33:52 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: <3EAB0600-7BB7-4CE0-8BAF-727C7189D0DC@rachors.com> I remember taking the applesoft compiler and feeding it the applesoft breakout game?. Fun and made the game unplayable! George Rachor On Mar 19, 2012, at 5:56 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:14 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really >> slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put >> up with it I don't know. > > It was faster than the TI 99/4 basic... (; > > I used to write things in Integer basic if I could get away with it. > It was much faster. > > Failing that, I had an Applesoft "compiler". > > Just about anything that required any speed you'd do in assembler. > > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > > Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 09:40:42 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:40:42 -0400 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:03 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: >> >> ?The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really >> slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put >> up with it I don't know. > > We put up with it back in the late 1970s because none of the common, > inexpensive microcomputers available at the time were any faster. ?And > although the Atari 800 had better graphics, it had far worse I/O. > > Even the 4 MHz Z80 systems and 5 MHz 8088 systems weren't much faster, > because the 6502 is more cycle-efficient than either. Yep. I got my start on a 1MHz 6502. The BASIC game engine for Scott Adams' first two adventures ("Adventureland" and "Pirate's Adventure") took several seconds to loop through the 151-entry-long action table, so even if you knew what to do, the game took hours. The first real 6502 machine language program I wrote was a Scott Adams' engine. That flew through the game almost as fast as you could type. The Apple II in text mode isn't any faster than what I started with (32K PET), and I don't know of any serious work involving hi-res graphics and BASIC. That was all done with 6502 assembly. BASIC on an 8-bit micro is just slow. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 09:45:05 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:45:05 -0400 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <92EEB8BD-EF8C-4D6B-89D1-6D120554ECE0@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > As a Mac user, it pains me to say this, but the problem could simply > be that you're running it on Mac OS X. A few years ago someone did > some speed comparisons of Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. While I > forget the specific's, it boiled down to the problem is the Mach > Micorkernel. Does anyone else remember this, and have any pointers > to the article, or more current testing on this? This is a little late, but I recall testing some of my own code on Linux vs. OS X (probably 10.4) and found that dynamic memory allocation had a very high per-call overhead on OS X compared to Linux because it went straight into a kernel call (ISTR Linux dumped at least a portion of the allocation into userland, but it could have been just that you weren't making a highly abstracted microkernel call, which does carry a lot of overhead). If you find (through profiling) that you're spending an ungodly amount of time on malloc() calls, there are a few options: - Try to do more malloc()s at startup instead of at run-time, if it's possible; they'll be less noticed at startup. - Pre-allocate a huge chunk of memory for your heap, then use your own allocator (either write one or use nedmalloc, which is great). This is typically how most games do it, because you can't rely on malloc() to be speedy on any given OS (plus, for games, you can put in all sorts of tags to see who allocated what so you can find leaks more easily). I've found every operating system slows down as time progresses. The first iteration of Windows XP ran fine on a Pentium III. Update it to Service Pack 3, though, and you have problems. Modern NetBSD is painfully slow on what used to be "big iron" (my Power Mac 9500 with gobs of RAM), and I imagine Linux is no picnic on it either. As for OS X, 10.4.1 is quite speedy on my MDD G4, but the last version of 10.4 (whatever it is) was about half the speed. The OS, however, will not slow *everything* down. Self-contained apps that didn't do much interaction with the OS (e.g. I/O) didn't take much of a hit. Apps bundled with and upgraded with the OS did, however. What finally got intolerable for me with the MDD G4 was Safari and its monotonically decreasing Javascript performance; Google Maps became nearly unusable, and that was that. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Mar 19 09:51:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F6595B9.4020005@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> <201203180458.AAA04087@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6577B7.2080801@neurotica.com> <201203180659.CAA05600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6595B9.4020005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203191451.KAA00983@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] the ones I'm familiar enough with to compare the software view >> of are all integrated into something larger, such as the 7750 SCIF >> or the MicroVAX-II console. > Ahh, the DC319. I sure would like to find a few tubes of those lying > around. I've never heard of the 7750, what is it? One of the Hitachi Super-H CPUs. In particular, the CPU in the Sega Dreamcast, one of which which I've been playing with intermittently in the last year or two. Not an 8-bitter, but feels surprisingly like it (well, to me at least), probably because the instruction set is so cramped (instructions are only 16 bits wide, so the things they can do are rather more restricted than usual for a 32-bit CPU). Relevantly to the discussion, it's got an integrated serial port with two 16-byte FIFOs, one in each direction. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 09:58:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:58:53 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: <20120319074322.GA14627@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120319074322.GA14627@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20120319074322.GA14627 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > Lovely collection of SGI machines! The Jurrasic Classic looks to be in > great shape. Yes, it's the only deskside machine I have of that generation with all the skins intact! I need one Onyx front and 3 Onyx sides for the others. That particular Jurassic Classic came surplus from Boeing in St. Louis. A friend and I flew out there and rented a Penske truck to bring everything home: 4 rack Onyx Reality Monster, Challenge XL, Onyx XL, Crimson Jurassic Classic and a box of spaceballs :-). Jay West was kind enough to give us a ride from the airport to the truck rental place and we had a wonderful visit looking at his collection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 10:37:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:37:07 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4CFE02BA-EEDB-4E51-B9CE-B3EEA37057BC@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:33 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Isn't that the chip Sun used on most of their SPARCstations? > > Yes, and on most/all 68K Macs. And the OldWorld PowerPC Macs. >> If so, I >> disagree in at least a few respects. I *think* it has basically no >> FIFO... > > It has no FIFO. It came from an era before serial chips routinely had > FIFOs, but I've used it at 56K and faster with no problems - your CPU > just has to keep up, which I know was a problem in the DOS era with > 8250 and 16450 serial chips. I thought it had a very tiny FIFO on receive (maybe 2 or 3 deep?). I'm pretty sure the "enhanced" SCCs (85230 and up) had larger buffers. I haven't seen them used in the wild in many places, though admittedly I haven't looked much. The Mac architectures at various points used: - Real Z8530s (or second-source replicas) - Real AM85C30s - An AMD 85C80 (an unholy hybrid of an AM85C30 and a 53C80 SCSI controller; I have some in my various LCs) - IP cores of the 85[C?]30 integrated along with 6522 VIA cores in the custom chipset ICs As far as I know, none of these were enhanced parts. The Mac OS kept up with them OK, though I certainly recall LocalTalk taking up significant processor time on local machines because the 68K architecture didn't really "do" DMA (among other reasons). >> Also, to quote NetBSD's z8530reg.h (version 1.12, in case >> anyone cares), >> >> * The damnable chip was designed to fit on Z80 I/O ports, and thus >> * has everything multiplexed out the wazoo. > > That is true. It _is_ possible to stick it on a 68000 bus, but some > glue logic, including, possibly wait-states or careful driver crafting > may be required. > One thing that complicated _our_ design was that we started using the > Z8530 very early in its evolution, so we were hanging either a 4MHz or > 6MHz part off of an 8MHz 68000. We had to inject wait states (via > registered PALs and /DTACK, IIRC) _and_ we had to ensure we didn't jam > up the inner workings of the Z8530 by hitting the registers too fast. > We had NOPs in the driver between selecting and using the registers. > Perhaps 8MHz parts would be easier to use now. The original Mac had the same issue, it would seem; there are bits in the original Inside Macintosh which warn that if you absolutely must talk directly to the SCC instead of using the Toolbox drivers, you need to add NOPs to the access (or access twice, I don't quite recall). The 68000 had an interesting 6800 bus emulation mode for accessing legacy peripherals at around 1MHz. I'm not sure if the original Mac used it, but there's a simplified one-page schematic on folklore.org somewhere if you wanted to find out. Do you know why your company didn't use that? Or if so, why it didn't quite work? > Once we worked out what was needed, it was a solid, reliable chip, but > I will admit that our embedded application guys did have a few fits > trying to port front-end code from the older models that expected a > minimal-option simple chip like the COM5025. I like the 8530, but it's definitely not a simple chip. Its popularity is evidenced by the fact that you can still buy IP cores of it (I think its popularity is mostly with folks that need SDLC, which some of our customers do for legacy radio protocols). - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 10:57:07 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:57:07 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article , John Many Jars writes: > Just about anything that required any speed you'd do in assembler. or FORTH. I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 11:00:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:00:41 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , , <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article , dwight elvey writes: > I just find the thought of writing a business application > with this slow a BASIC would have been tough. IIRC, "professional" developers were expected to use Pascal or C. I seem to recall that the PFS suite was written in C (and poorly written at that, if the code snippets in "Programmers at Work" are anything to judge by). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 11:08:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:08:50 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4CFE02BA-EEDB-4E51-B9CE-B3EEA37057BC@gmail.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4CFE02BA-EEDB-4E51-B9CE-B3EEA37057BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:37 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:33 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I thought it had a very tiny FIFO on receive (maybe 2 or 3 deep?). ?I'm > pretty sure the "enhanced" SCCs (85230 and up) had larger buffers. I think the 85230 does. I don't remember there being any sort of SILO in the 8530, but there may have been a latching register so you could drop in "the next byte" while the old byte was still going out. I'm not positive it has that, but I'm reasonably certain that it has nothing more sophisticated than that. > - Real Z8530s (or second-source replicas) > - Real AM85C30s > - An AMD 85C80 (an unholy hybrid of an AM85C30 and a 53C80 SCSI > controller; I have some in my various LCs) That looks like a fun one. There are places I would have liked to see that in the late 80s/early 90s. > As far as I know, none of these were enhanced parts. ?The Mac OS kept up > with them OK, though I certainly recall LocalTalk taking up significant > processor time on local machines because the 68K architecture didn't > really "do" DMA (among other reasons). Right. Our board had no DMA engine. We ran up to 128Kbps sync serial with an 8MHz 68000 doing all the packet assembly/breakdown and USART stuffing. >> One thing that complicated _our_ design was that we started using the >> Z8530 very early in its evolution,... ?We had to inject wait states (via >> registered PALs and /DTACK, IIRC)... > > The original Mac had the same issue, it would seem; there are bits in > the original Inside Macintosh which warn that if you absolutely must > talk directly to the SCC instead of using the Toolbox drivers, you need > to add NOPs to the access (or access twice, I don't quite recall). Probably NOPs... I think double access would gum up the innards of the chip and require it be reset. > The 68000 had an interesting 6800 bus emulation mode for accessing > legacy peripherals at around 1MHz. ?I'm not sure if the original Mac > used it, but there's a simplified one-page schematic on folklore.org > somewhere if you wanted to find out. ?Do you know why your company > didn't use that? ?Or if so, why it didn't quite work? I know of that mode, but I'm not sure we were using it. We started making 68000 peripherals in 1981 - the first prototype was made before we got a chip in hand. The original socket was 0.6" wide because nobody noticed the 1" dimension on the preliminary spec sheets. Once the first processor showed up (XC68000 w/ S/N 424 hand engraved on the lid), I heard they had to make a mechanical adapter to fit the CPU onto it. By 1985, the team had learned more about the 68000, but since there were a variety of /DTACK-delaying peripherals on the original board (like the Unibus DMA engine to move buffers in and out of host memory), one more chip with a custom /DTACK term wasn't the end of the world, plus they could tune it to match the 4MHz speed of the early 8530s and not run it off of the E clock at 1/2 or 1/4 speed. I don't know if they even tried using the E clock, so I don't know if it was tried and failed, but with such a complex design they probably just wanted to stick with the technique that was already in use. I know a bit of the whole "DTACK Grounded" saga, and our design was far too complicated to even think about that as a solution. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 11:16:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:16:32 -0400 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Richard wrote: > In article , > ? ?dwight elvey writes: > >> ?I just find the thought of writing a business application >> with this slow a BASIC would have been tough. > > IIRC, "professional" developers were expected to use Pascal or C. Maybe with ProDOS and the IIgs, but not with AppleDOS and the II/II+/IIe/IIc/IIc+. "Real" apps were either assembly or perhaps compiled BASIC. Not a lot of serious language choices on 6502 platforms prior to 1986. Having read the Hernia Manuals when they came out on 3-ring binders, all I saw were references to Pascal. It looked painful/excessively verbose to call the toolbox routines from 68K assembler. I don't think I saw much for C on the Mac until 1986 or 1987, but there are probably others here who were closer to that world at that time who could provide more precise dates. -ethan From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 19 11:17:33 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:17:33 +0000 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Richard wrote: > I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. I used to have an (ahem) illegal copy of GraphForth. I didn't have a manual, and didn't know forth, and it was way before the Internet, so I never figured out how to use it. The demo ran impressively fast! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 19 11:31:04 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:31:04 +0000 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Maybe with ProDOS and the IIgs, but not with AppleDOS and the > II/II+/IIe/IIc/IIc+. ?"Real" apps were either assembly or perhaps > compiled BASIC. ?Not a lot of serious language choices on 6502 > platforms prior to 1986. > > Having read the Hernia Manuals when they came out on 3-ring binders, > all I saw were references to Pascal. ?It looked painful/excessively > verbose to call the toolbox routines from 68K assembler. ?I don't > think I saw much for C on the Mac until 1986 or 1987, but there are > probably others here who were closer to that world at that time who > could provide more precise dates. UCSD Pascal was useless. All it did was take up all the RAM, so you couldn't actually write any code. The disk system was insane. Were there any other Pascal flavours? I can't remember... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 19 11:40:18 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:40:18 +0000 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:17 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Richard wrote: > >> I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. Been looking into that (now that I have the Internet). It's all stack based and weird. No wonder it's fast though... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 11:57:43 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:57:43 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Having read the Hernia Manuals when they came out on 3-ring binders, > all I saw were references to Pascal. It looked painful/excessively > verbose to call the toolbox routines from 68K assembler. I don't > think I saw much for C on the Mac until 1986 or 1987, but there are > probably others here who were closer to that world at that time who > could provide more precise dates. Actually, Toolbox routines from assembly weren't *that* bad. You had to marshal your parameters properly and then drop a word in there whose first nybble was 0xA; this was an explicitly illegal instruction prefix (much like 0xF was the floating-point instruction prefix) which invoked the A-Line Instruction exception handler. The other 12 bits indicated which Toolbox instruction you were trying to call. If I recall correctly, this isn't too different from how TOPS-10 did its system calls. I haven't worked much with TOPS-10 yet. Unfortunately, that method of trapping A-line instructions makes it impossible to try to port MacOS to Coldfire (something which I had the harebrained idea to do once), because Coldfire uses the 0xA prefix for its enhanced MAC (multiply-accumulate, not Mac, though the irony is delicious) unit. You'd have to do other opcode translations, too, but that pretty much blows the Toolbox calls out of the water, since there's no equivalent illegal prefix. As far as C on the Mac, it didn't come until rather later. Most of the system which wasn't done in assembly was done in some compiled version of Pascal (i.e. not UCSD Pascal), which is why all the strings are Pascal-style strings (prefixed with a length byte) and all callbacks have to use Pascal function return conventions for stack cleanup, etc. - Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 12:02:01 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:02:01 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , , Message-ID: Hi Down loading a Forth was one of my first things to do once ADT was running. Dwight > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Finally running with new software Apple IIe > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:57:07 -0600 > > > In article , > John Many Jars writes: > > > Just about anything that required any speed you'd do in assembler. > > or FORTH. > > I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 12:04:43 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: from John Many Jars at "Mar 19, 12 04:40:18 pm" Message-ID: <201203191704.q2JH4hla11468882@floodgap.com> > > I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. > > Been looking into that (now that I have the Internet). It's all stack > based and weird. > No wonder it's fast though... Forth is definitely intimidating and one mistake dooms a whole program. Things like Jonesforth really impress me though (I have a Jonesforth implementation handwritten in PowerPC assembly language and it's neat). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Premature optimization is the root of all evil. -- Donald Knuth ------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 12:18:09 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:18:09 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , , , , Message-ID: > From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:17 PM, John Many Jars > wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Richard wrote: > > > >> I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. > > Been looking into that (now that I have the Internet). It's all stack > based and weird. > > No wonder it's fast though... > -- Hi If you want to fiddle with Forth, I believe Starting Forth is online now. It is a fun book to go through and is applicable to most versions of Forth. The exception might be the varies editors used with screens rather than sequencial files. Most of the early ones such as found on the Apple II would most likely be screens. Stacks are not overly efficient on the 6502 but better than on the 8080. Stack processors never seem to catch on too much, even though they are fast. I have a 4MHz Novix chip that can do sorts faster in Forth than a 33 MHz 386 can do in machine code. Sorting 1K 16 bit integers in 19 ms. Like many DSPs, it can combine several instructions in a single clock cycle and operate 2 data busses at the same time. Dwight From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Mar 19 12:39:47 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:39:47 +0000 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80275F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:17 AM > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Richard > wrote: >> IIRC, "professional" developers were expected to use Pascal or C. On the Apple II family??? > Having read the Hernia Manuals when they came out on 3-ring binders, > all I saw were references to Pascal. It looked painful/excessively > verbose to call the toolbox routines from 68K assembler. I don't > think I saw much for C on the Mac until 1986 or 1987, but there are > probably others here who were closer to that world at that time who > could provide more precise dates. There was a native C compiler for the Macintosh (128K) in the latter half of 1984. I'm sure of the date because I saw it before leaving Chicago for Stanford, which was the end of September, 1984. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From gord.tulloch at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 13:07:53 2012 From: gord.tulloch at gmail.com (Gord Tulloch) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:07:53 -0500 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: I got the manual on abebooks.com, I'll have to scan it someday :) GraFORTH is pretty neat, very fast for graphics and music. Paul Lutus wrote TransFORTH as well which is a floating point FORTH. I've messed with them but never got around to making anything meaningful, but they're on my shelf. If anyone's interested in the docs let me know. Regards, Gord On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:17 AM, John Many Jars < john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Richard wrote: > > > I saw some impressive Apple ][ FORTH demos in '86. > > I used to have an (ahem) illegal copy of GraphForth. I didn't have a > manual, and didn't know forth, and it was way before the Internet, so > I never figured out how to use it. > > The demo ran impressively fast! > > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > > Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. > > -- Gord Tulloch, Winnipeg, MB Ph. 204-223-4627 -- From sttaylor at charter.net Mon Mar 19 13:13:21 2012 From: sttaylor at charter.net (ST Taylor_Charter) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:13:21 -0700 Subject: BitSavers DEC Archive Stuff Missing? In-Reply-To: <01d501cd051d$57b5b8d0$07212a70$@ntlworld.com> References: <01d501cd051d$57b5b8d0$07212a70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F677741.3030206@charter.net> First 3 links are still there but the sub-files in 21383578 are missing ??????? Best Regards, Steve On 3/18/2012 8:39 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I was looking through some RSS feeds of stuff posted to BitSavers, like the > following: > > dec :: dec archive > :: 21383578 > :: 94-006 003 01 > 1984-1987 > > :: 19850910 Business Entities My Definition > 9850910_Business_Entities_My_Definition.pdf> > Enclosures: > 19850910_Business_Entities_My_Definition.pdf > 9850910_Business_Entities_My_Definition.pdf> (31 KB) > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dec_archive/21383578/94-006_003_01_1984-1987/19 > 850910_Business_Entities_My_Definition.pdf > > > But this link is dead, as are many others. Has this material been moved > elsewhere? > > Regards > > Rob From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 13:28:26 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:28:26 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > dwight elvey writes: > > > >> I just find the thought of writing a business application > >> with this slow a BASIC would have been tough. > > > > IIRC, "professional" developers were expected to use Pascal or C. > > Maybe with ProDOS and the IIgs, but not with AppleDOS and the > II/II+/IIe/IIc/IIc+. "Real" apps were either assembly or perhaps > compiled BASIC. Not a lot of serious language choices on 6502 > platforms prior to 1986. The PFS suite ran on Apple ][e, at least, and was written in C. I don't have a year on it, but I want to say before 1986 at a minimum. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 13:40:30 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:40:30 -0700 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F655882.3000301@conus.info> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <0A05C14F0FC34DA59B77ABA2C4FD6B56@HP4CORE> <4F655882.3000301@conus.info> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > On 17.03.2012 22:16, Glen Slick wrote: >> Maybe something close to this? >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/19980213050907/http://www.emulex.com/dcp/dcp-286sbc.html > > However, not mine board, here is different jumpers placement: > > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/io-cards/E-H/EMULEX-CORPORATION-Serial-DCP286I-SBC.html It looks like there was a DCP-286 and a DCP-286I. Maybe your board was one of the two? Also, while the date screened on your board is 1991 there are date codes on some of the chips from 1996. A net search turns up the following manuals which were available at some point. This FTP site does not appear to allow anonymous logins see if these manuals are still there and if they are of any use for the card you have: ftp://ftp.emulex.com/pub/manuals/dcp/DCP-286-Inst-Guide.pdf ftp://ftp.emulex.com/pub/manuals/dcp/DCP286-SBCPrgTech.pdf ftp://ftp.emulex.com/pub/manuals/dcp/DCP286iInstDiags2prt.pdf ftp://ftp.emulex.com/pub/manuals/dcp/DCP286iSBCInstGuide.pdf From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 19 13:52:09 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:52:09 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F678059.2030805@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Having read the Hernia Manuals when they came out on 3-ring binders, > all I saw were references to Pascal. It looked painful/excessively > verbose to call the toolbox routines from 68K assembler. I never found calling the toolbox from assembly to be particularly onerous. It used Pascal calling conventions, but there's nothing complicated about that. And I prefer counted strings to null-terminated strings any day. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 19 13:53:15 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:53:15 -0700 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F67809B.2050100@brouhaha.com> John Many Jars wrote: > UCSD Pascal was useless. All it did was take up all the RAM, so you > couldn't actually write any code. The disk system was insane. Were > there any other Pascal flavours? I can't remember... Certainly. Kyan Pascal was quite usable. For the IIgs, there was MPW Pascal. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 19 13:56:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:56:08 -0700 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls In-Reply-To: <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F678148.8000209@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > Unfortunately, that method of trapping A-line instructions makes it > impossible to try to port MacOS to Coldfire (something which I had > the harebrained idea to do once), because Coldfire uses the 0xA > prefix for its enhanced MAC (multiply-accumulate, not Mac, though > the irony is delicious) unit. You'd have to do other opcode > translations, too, but that pretty much blows the Toolbox calls out > of the water, since there's no equivalent illegal prefix. So what? Since you're going to have to reassemble/recompile code anyhow, just do the system calls with two words instead of one. If you felt strongly about it, the second word could even be the exact Axxx word used on the Mac. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 13:51:36 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:51:36 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4CFE02BA-EEDB-4E51-B9CE-B3EEA37057BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BD37487-08EA-4E22-AF42-5A7F3CBD7625@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:08 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:37 AM, David Riley wrote: >> On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:33 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I thought it had a very tiny FIFO on receive (maybe 2 or 3 deep?). I'm >> pretty sure the "enhanced" SCCs (85230 and up) had larger buffers. > > I think the 85230 does. I don't remember there being any sort of SILO > in the 8530, but there may have been a latching register so you could > drop in "the next byte" while the old byte was still going out. I'm > not positive it has that, but I'm reasonably certain that it has > nothing more sophisticated than that. Ah, looking through the 85C30 data sheet, it contains several *status* FIFOs, but apparently none for data. Must have dreamed that (or conflated it with the ESCC). >> - Real Z8530s (or second-source replicas) >> - Real AM85C30s >> - An AMD 85C80 (an unholy hybrid of an AM85C30 and a 53C80 SCSI >> controller; I have some in my various LCs) > > That looks like a fun one. There are places I would have liked to see > that in the late 80s/early 90s. Apparently, that's what Apple thought as well. I've never seen them anywhere else, but they certainly would have been handy in various high- nd micros and minis of the day. Around the time of the late 68030 machines and most of the 68040s, they moved SCSI to the 83C90 and 83C94/96, which offered substantially improved SCSI performance due to protocol offload. I think it's only the LCII which has the 83C80. - Dave From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 14:09:42 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:09:42 -0500 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <4F65281D.1010402@neurotica.com> References: <4F65281D.1010402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Still looking Dave- still recovering/ unpacking. Paul On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Does anyone have a unit select plug for an RL01/02 drive, for unit 2, that > they can spare? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Mar 19 14:18:53 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:18:53 +0000 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: David Riley Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:58 AM > Actually, Toolbox routines from assembly weren't *that* bad. You had > to marshal your parameters properly and then drop a word in there > whose first nybble was 0xA; this was an explicitly illegal > instruction prefix (much like 0xF was the floating-point instruction > prefix) which invoked the A-Line Instruction exception handler. The > other 12 bits indicated which Toolbox instruction you were trying to > call. > If I recall correctly, this isn't too different from how TOPS-10 did > its system calls. I haven't worked much with TOPS-10 yet. On the PDP-10 architecture, illegal instructions trap. The instruction itself is stored in location 40, and the calculated effective address is stored in location 41. In kernel mode, these are physical locations 40 and 41; in user mode, they are locations 40 and 41 in the program address space. All PDP-10 operating systems utilize this behaviour as their system call mechanism. In TOPS-20, the JSYS instruction (op code 104) is used, and if the effective address is < 1000, a monitor call dispatch is performed; if 1000+, a dispatch to a handler in the user's program or an error handler is made. JSYS is essentially a defined illegal instruction. Tops-10 and its variants (e.g., WAITS at Stanford, TymCOM-10 at Tymshare, and the operating system used at CompuServe) and ITS use the hardware- defined monitor calls. Opcodes in the range 001-037 are user program calls; those in the range 040-077 are monitor calls. (Because these do not interfere with the TOPS-20 mechanism, the original developers included a partial emulation package for the Tops-10 monitor calls. Execution of a Tops-10 call causes the emulation package to be mapped into the user's address space, where it handles many of the most common cases.) > As far as C on the Mac, it didn't come until rather later. Most of > the system which wasn't done in assembly was done in some compiled > version of Pascal (i.e. not UCSD Pascal), which is why all the > strings are Pascal-style strings (prefixed with a length byte) and > all callbacks have to use Pascal function return conventions for > stack cleanup, etc. Object Pascal was an object-oriented dialect of Pascal developed at Apple for Lisa operating system and applications development, IIRC. Its size and complexity were the reason that official development for the Mac was done on Lisas for a long time. (Assembly was discouraged for large programs on the Mac for the same reason it was discouraged on mainframe systems: On average, the same number of lines of debugged code can be generated per day in any language, so HLLs are more efficient of programmer time.) I don't think Apple programmers began using Objective-C in earnest until MacOS 9, though it could have been MacOS 8. (Certainly the manual set for MacOS 7 was still very much Object Pascal oriented.) Third-party programs were much more frequently in C than in any form of Pascal, of course. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 14:20:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:20:17 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls In-Reply-To: <4F678148.8000209@brouhaha.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <4F678148.8000209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <760C0FE1-3DCD-437E-BCCA-60AD4D78B822@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> Unfortunately, that method of trapping A-line instructions makes it >> impossible to try to port MacOS to Coldfire (something which I had >> the harebrained idea to do once), because Coldfire uses the 0xA >> prefix for its enhanced MAC (multiply-accumulate, not Mac, though >> the irony is delicious) unit. You'd have to do other opcode >> translations, too, but that pretty much blows the Toolbox calls out >> of the water, since there's no equivalent illegal prefix. > So what? Since you're going to have to reassemble/recompile code anyhow, just do the system calls with two words instead of one. If you felt strongly about it, the second word could even be the exact Axxx word used on the Mac. Well, that's a good point. I was mostly being lazy. :-) Certainly a subroutine jump would provide the address of the A-line on the stack. There are, of course, other things that make it a bit harder, like the fact that the Coldfire architecture got rid of some of the more CISC-y instructions (or modes of instructions) and rearranged a few others for opcode efficiency; I know there's an automatic converter out there somewhere, but I'm sure some of the clever tricks employed by the ROM writers would make it a little hard. I'd hope for something that could be patched in without moving much around, but that's almost always too much to ask for. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 14:33:43 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:33:43 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I don't think Apple programmers began using Objective-C in earnest until > MacOS 9, though it could have been MacOS 8. (Certainly the manual set for > MacOS 7 was still very much Object Pascal oriented.) Third-party programs > were much more frequently in C than in any form of Pascal, of course. Did Apple ever use Objective-C before OS X? I was under the impression that was primarily a NeXT thing that got absorbed as Cocoa. I certainly never saw a hint of it the entire time I was developing for the Mac pre- OS X. Carbon (the bridge between the Toolbox and OS X) was still very much C-oriented. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 19 14:36:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:36:28 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80275F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80275F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80275F at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson writes: > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Richard > wrote: > > >> IIRC, "professional" developers were expected to use Pascal or C. > > On the Apple II family??? Well, I don't know if the compiler actually ran on the Apple ][ or if it was cross-compiled, but unless the author of the PFS series *lied* when he submitted code to "Programmers at Work", it was written in C, and pooly at that. (i.e. IIRC, his "append two strings" routine which he included in the snippet for the book traversed both strings twice.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 19 14:48:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:48:31 -0700 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F678D8F.2010405@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > Object Pascal was an object-oriented dialect of Pascal developed at > Apple for Lisa operating system and applications development, IIRC. Close. The language developed for Lisa application development (but not the OS, AFAIK), was Clascal, which was a different object-oriented dialect. Experience with Clascal was one of the inspirations for Object Pascal. It's hard to consider Object Pascal to have been much of a success for Apple, but Borland and its successors have been quite successful with it to this day. I wonder how much of that is a result of Borland downplaying the "Pascal" name, which has a bad reputation with many developers, in favor of the name "Delphi"? > Its size and complexity were the reason that official development for > the Mac was done on Lisas for a long time. Actually almost all Mac developers moved off the Lisa as fast as they could. While the limited memory of the original 128K Mac was a hindrance to development, the 512K came around pretty soon, and unofficial upgrades before that. It took Apple a while to get MPW out, but there were plenty of other options for natively hosted development early on. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 15:02:18 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Mar 19, 12 03:33:43 pm" Message-ID: <201203192002.q2JK2I2q12255248@floodgap.com> > > I don't think Apple programmers began using Objective-C in earnest until > > MacOS 9, though it could have been MacOS 8. (Certainly the manual set for > > MacOS 7 was still very much Object Pascal oriented.) Third-party programs > > were much more frequently in C than in any form of Pascal, of course. > > Did Apple ever use Objective-C before OS X? I was under the impression > that was primarily a NeXT thing that got absorbed as Cocoa. I certainly > never saw a hint of it the entire time I was developing for the Mac pre- > OS X. Carbon (the bridge between the Toolbox and OS X) was still very > much C-oriented. Objective-C implies an Objective-C runtime, which does not exist in OS 9. All CarbonLib provided was the stubs for linking against Carbon API, which is most definitely not Objective-C (it's just regular C). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- One learns to itch where one can scratch. -- Ernest Bramah ----------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 19 15:13:00 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:13:00 -0500 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <201203192002.q2JK2I2q12255248@floodgap.com> References: <201203192002.q2JK2I2q12255248@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201203192013.q2JKDKBe051284@billy.ezwind.net> There was MPW C, too, right? Which reminds me, I need to inventory and dispose of a pile of old Mac developer stuff (circa 1993-1998). - John From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 15:16:12 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:16:12 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:33 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Did Apple ever use Objective-C before OS X? I was under the impression > that was primarily a NeXT thing that got absorbed as Cocoa. I certainly > never saw a hint of it the entire time I was developing for the Mac pre- > OS X. Carbon (the bridge between the Toolbox and OS X) was still very > much C-oriented. > I don't think Objective-C existed for classic MacOS development. Maybe Tenon made some weird compiler for it, but it wasn't an officially supported language. IIRC MPW had compilers for C, C++ and Pascal, and MacApp was geared toward Pascal first, then C++ later on. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 15:17:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:17:53 -0400 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <20120319120040.GA10739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> <20120319120040.GA10739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4F679471.9080007@neurotica.com> On 03/19/2012 08:00 AM, David Cantrell wrote: >> ....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, on the >> exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it does under >> either Ubuntu or Windows ? >> >> ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) > > I'd guess that it's different compiler options, or different #defines > and other pre-processor malarkey. Or *the same* #defines that just > happen to optimise for one platform and not the other. > > You're gonna have to profile the code. Unfortunately I'm not aware of > anything that will work on both Linux and OS X. Urr? What about prof/gprof? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 19 15:25:35 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <201203192013.q2JKDKBe051284@billy.ezwind.net> from John Foust at "Mar 19, 12 03:13:00 pm" Message-ID: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> > There was MPW C, too, right? Which reminds me, I need to inventory and > dispose of a pile of old Mac developer stuff (circa 1993-1998). MPW C was MrC, which (IIRC) is an evolution of old THINK C. For my Classic Mac development, though, I use either CodeWarrior 5, 7, or FutureBASIC. I never did much with MPW. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Commodore on desk/Power light glowing brightly/The computer waits -- T. Lake From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 19 15:36:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:36:36 -0700 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> References: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F6798D4.80600@bitsavers.org> On 3/19/12 1:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > MPW C was MrC, which (IIRC) is an evolution of old THINK C. > The original MPW C was licensed from Green Hills. The Apple developed compiler was written in Pascal by the MPW team. From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Mar 19 15:47:51 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:47:51 -0400 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:14 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > ?The one thing I found is that the BASIC on the Apple is really > slow. It is about the slowest I've ever used. How people put > up with it I don't know. Apple Integer Basic was decently fast for the time. Check out say Little Brick Out or Apple Trek. Yeah Applesoft was mostly a step backwards :-) Beagle Bros did a lot of cool things in nominal Applesoft BASIC but you know they were peeking and poking and calling machine language routines for most of the cool stuff :-) If you ever get a chance... Beagle Bag rules :-). "Card Scanner" and "Plenty Questions" were (and are!) my favorite! Tim. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Mar 19 15:55:44 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:55:44 +0100 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4F679D50.6020605@bluewin.ch> On 03/17/2012 09:49 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > ....that could help me out understanding why the exact same program, on the exact same machine, runs 10 times slower under OS-X than it does under either Ubuntu or Windows ? > > ( Programmed in C with GCC toolchain and using the FLTK toolset. ) > > Classicmp link : the program is my new release of Emulith, the ETH Lilith emulator. > > Jos Dreesen > Thanks for all the input, guys. I guess i'd better start getting into profiling, which I never needed to do before. The issue is definitly not console I/O, since there is none. I have put the Makefile online, ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/Emulith/Makefile, so diehards can look at it and probably find glaringly obvious mistakes. Jos From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Mon Mar 19 16:05:10 2012 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:05:10 -0400 Subject: PDP 8L Message-ID: <73fbe2$ncioh@fipsb02.cogeco.net> We are trying to revive a PDP 8L, and wonder if anyone can advise us of the equivalent of the DEC1008 transistor, npn germanium, and also where we might track down any of the following boards: G228, G826, G624, G221. Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 08:41:10 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:41:10 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , Message-ID: > Failing that, I had an Applesoft "compiler". > > Just about anything that required any speed you'd do in assembler. UCSD Pascal was actually pretty decent, heck the original Wizardry was written using it. Kevin From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 10:53:41 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:53:41 -0600 Subject: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. Kevin From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 15:02:26 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:02:26 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4F67809B.2050100@brouhaha.com> References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com>, , , , , <4F67809B.2050100@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I wrote quite a bit of code in UCSD pascal. It wasn't useless to me :D Kevin > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:53:15 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: Finally running with new software Apple IIe > > John Many Jars wrote: > > UCSD Pascal was useless. All it did was take up all the RAM, so you > > couldn't actually write any code. The disk system was insane. Were > > there any other Pascal flavours? I can't remember... > > Certainly. Kyan Pascal was quite usable. For the IIgs, there was MPW > Pascal. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 19 15:26:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:26:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: from "JENNY & ROYCE SMITH" at Mar 17, 12 06:33:05 pm Message-ID: > > The zero button is complementary binary, removing spikes changes the > number to a higher number, but sorry I cant remember which does which. > Look at the other buttons if you have a spare zero button. IIRC there are 2 pins at the sides, it's the top and bottm edges of those that matter. Each edge can eiterh be straight out cut in a bit, they operate 4 contacts i nthe lamphoder. One always operates when the cap is fitted (this inidcates a cap _is_ fitted, removign the cap disables the drive). the other 3 edges encode a 3 bit (yes, I do mean _3_ binary number). In the RL's, only the bottom 2 bits are used, the RK06/RK07 use all 3 bits (and ahve caps numbered from 0-7), I think some CDC drives used a simlar system, but the cape was opaque and didn't also act as the 'ready' lamp. Therefore, if you don't care abotu the cap showing the right number you can use an RK06/RK07 #6 cap on an RL and it'll work as #2. Or you can cut or jumper traces on the frontpanel board to fake the appopriate contacts. But I assume the OP wants to keep his drive original. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 19 15:29:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:29:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 18, 12 03:02:57 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 18 Mar 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The problem with the 765 core and 128 byte MFM is that the whole > > sector doesn't get transferred--only the first 80 (decimal) bytes. > > I can't help speculating whether that could be something as ridiculously > improbably simple as an engineer using too high-level a tool, and leaving > off the 'h' in "80h" Which was the cause of a bug in the RS232 driver of the original IBM 5150 BIOS... However, I as going to be more charitable in the case of the FDC chip and wonder if it was duw to the fact that IIRC the origianl IBM 3740 format used a sector as the equivalent of a punched card, so only the first 80 chracters were used. -tony From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Mar 19 17:30:55 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 22:30:55 +0000 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > UCSD Pascal was actually pretty decent, heck the original Wizardry was written using it. Maybe I am projecting my own lack of skill with it. (; I recently found my manual... I'm amazed that I managed to do anything with that much memory. I'd love to see the code to Wizardry.. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 18:13:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:13:52 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 18, 12 03:02:57 pm, Message-ID: <4F675B40.14816.3C3544@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2012 at 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: > Which was the cause of a bug in the RS232 driver of the original IBM > 5150 BIOS... However, I as going to be more charitable in the case of > the FDC chip and wonder if it was duw to the fact that IIRC the > origianl IBM 3740 format used a sector as the equivalent of a punched > card, so only the first 80 chracters were used. Your charity might be misplaced. The 765 works just fine with 128 byte sectors in FM mode. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 18:18:14 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:18:14 -0400 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F65F304.12559.47A87B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <232A73AB-86BF-4933-BA35-BBD692BCFD90@gmail.com> On Mar 18, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 18 Mar 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The problem with the 765 core and 128 byte MFM is that the whole >> sector doesn't get transferred--only the first 80 (decimal) bytes. > > I can't help speculating whether that could be something as ridiculously > improbably simple as an engineer using too high-level a tool, and leaving > off the 'h' in "80h" I suspect the 286's A20 "oopsie" was due to someone writing "0-20" in a highlevel spec somewhere instead of "0-19". Caused no end of grief, and IBM's workaround was a pretty gross hack at best. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 19 18:56:34 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:56:34 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> References: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F67C7B2.50109@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/03/12 4:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> There was MPW C, too, right? Which reminds me, I need to inventory and >> dispose of a pile of old Mac developer stuff (circa 1993-1998). > > MPW C was MrC, which (IIRC) is an evolution of old THINK C. Yes it is, and for 68K, we ended up with SC. (MrC being PowerPC.) --Toby > > For my Classic Mac development, though, I use either CodeWarrior 5, 7, or > FutureBASIC. I never did much with MPW. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 19 19:00:26 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:00:26 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls In-Reply-To: <4F678D8F.2010405@brouhaha.com> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F678D8F.2010405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F67C89A.6090607@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/03/12 3:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ... It took Apple a while to get MPW out, but there > were plenty of other options for natively hosted development early on. > > I used quite a few of them, including the Consulair 68K development environment (editor, assembler), Whitesmiths C, Aztec C, THINK/Lightspeed Pascal and C, TML Pascal, Symantec C, and probably some I've forgotten, until eventually MPW became the dominant environment. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 19 19:02:06 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:02:06 -0400 Subject: Remember Dylan? - Re: Mac 68k toolbox calls In-Reply-To: References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F67C8FE.9060303@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/03/12 3:33 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 19, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> I don't think Apple programmers began using Objective-C in earnest until >> MacOS 9, though it could have been MacOS 8. (Certainly the manual set for >> MacOS 7 was still very much Object Pascal oriented.) Third-party programs >> were much more frequently in C than in any form of Pascal, of course. > > Did Apple ever use Objective-C before OS X? I was under the impression Before the return of Steve, the hot new future of Mac development was Dylan - like JavaScript, heavily Lisp inspired. I remember being excited about Dylan at the time and then shocked when it was deep-sixed in a flash. --Toby > that was primarily a NeXT thing that got absorbed as Cocoa. I certainly > never saw a hint of it the entire time I was developing for the Mac pre- > OS X. Carbon (the bridge between the Toolbox and OS X) was still very > much C-oriented. > > > - Dave > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 19:18:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:18:19 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <4F6798D4.80600@bitsavers.org> References: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> <4F6798D4.80600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/19/12 1:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> MPW C was MrC, which (IIRC) is an evolution of old THINK C. >> > > The original MPW C was licensed from Green Hills. The Apple > developed compiler was written in Pascal by the MPW team. That's fascinating, I had no idea. I see a lot of applications where our clients should have used Green Hills OSes. :-) The original MPW compilers (I don't recall if it was C or not) had some pretty funny error messages, too. Shame those got lost in the transition to SC (which was, I think, Symantec). - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 19 19:20:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:20:51 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <232A73AB-86BF-4933-BA35-BBD692BCFD90@gmail.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F65F304.12559.47A87B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> <232A73AB-86BF-4933-BA35-BBD692BCFD90@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F67CD63.4040602@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > I suspect the 286's A20 "oopsie" was due to someone writing "0-20" in > a highlevel spec somewhere instead of "0-19". How did you reach that conclusion? The 8086 and 8080 have 20 address lines, numbered from A0 (LSB) to A19 (MSB). The 80286 added more address lines, and in "real mode", its address arithmetic was such that the resulting address could be greater than 0xffff, and thus have A20=1. Are you arguing that the 80286 should have internally masked addresses to 20 bits (presumably only in "real mode")? If so, I'd have to disagree. I think Intel made the right choice. > Caused no end of grief, I disagree here also. > and IBM's workaround was a pretty gross hack at best. - Dave Providing a means to mask A20 seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Putting it on the keyboard controller is admittedly a little strange, but then, it isn't expected that you're going to be turning the A20 mask on and off at high frequency. The big problem with the AT design had nothing to do with A20, but rather with having the only way for software to force a reset (e.g., to get from protected mode to real mode) be via the keyboard controller, which was very slow. If Intel had provided a *documented* way of getting from protected mode to real mode without a hardware reset, that wouldn't have been an issue. The processor architects at Intel assumed that once you entered protected mode, you wouldn't want to go back. Arguably that was a little short-sighted of them, but then, back when the 286 was being designed (starting around 1980) the IBM PC wasn't even on the market, so it clearly wasn't obvious that the IBM PC and its descendants were going to become the most popular general-purpose computing platform on the planet. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 19 19:33:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:33:02 -0700 Subject: Remember Dylan? - Re: Mac 68k toolbox calls In-Reply-To: <4F67C8FE.9060303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net> <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com> <19EAB0CC-BEEF-46FB-BB66-23652CB03B0E@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D802783@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F67C8FE.9060303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F67D03E.7020305@bitsavers.org> On 3/19/12 5:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Before the return of Steve, the hot new future of Mac development was Dylan - like JavaScript, heavily Lisp inspired. Not surprising, since it was done by the Mac Common Lisp team. clozure.com is the closest living descendant of all that. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 19:58:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:58:01 -0400 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? > Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm interested in RA8x drives as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 20:02:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:02:58 -0400 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , , , , Message-ID: <4F67D742.10105@neurotica.com> > Stack processors never seem to catch on too much, even though they are > fast. I have a 4MHz Novix chip that can do sorts faster in Forth than a > 33 MHz 386 can do in machine code. Sorting 1K 16 bit integers in 19 ms. > Like many DSPs, it can combine several instructions in a single clock > cycle and operate 2 data busses at the same time. Forth chips are awesome, as is Forth. I've never messed with the Novix chips (NC4000 series?) but I have a couple of Harris RTX2010 chips here, as well as one of Chuck Moore's new GA144s. 144 hly simple cores on a chip! Great stuff. I'll have that on a board soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 20:08:55 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:08:55 -0500 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> References: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Do tou need cables? I think I have them to 25 ft. Paul On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> >> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. ?I'm in the US. > > > ?I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) ?I'm interested in > RA8x drives as well. > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 20:13:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:13:52 -0400 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F67D9D0.5040406@neurotica.com> I have plenty of cables for now. Drives I'm painfully short of, though. -Dave On 03/19/2012 09:08 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Do tou need cables? I think I have them to 25 ft. > > Paul > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >>> >>> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >>> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. >> >> >> I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm interested in >> RA8x drives as well. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 20:14:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:14:41 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: <4F65281D.1010402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F67DA01.10604@neurotica.com> Looks like I've found some; ten bucks got me two (a "2" and a "3") shipped. Nice! -Dave On 03/19/2012 03:09 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Still looking Dave- still recovering/ unpacking. > > Paul > > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a unit select plug for an RL01/02 drive, for unit 2, that >> they can spare? >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 20:25:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:25:39 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <4F67DA01.10604@neurotica.com> References: <4F65281D.1010402@neurotica.com> <4F67DA01.10604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F67DC93.5030602@neurotica.com> 'Twas meant to be private, alas. Damn reply-to. But yes, thanks to a helpful listmember, I'm covered. -Dave On 03/19/2012 09:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Looks like I've found some; ten bucks got me two (a "2" and a "3") > shipped. Nice! > > -Dave > > On 03/19/2012 03:09 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> Still looking Dave- still recovering/ unpacking. >> >> Paul >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Dave McGuire >> wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have a unit select plug for an RL01/02 drive, for unit 2, >>> that >>> they can spare? >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 19 20:48:41 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:48:41 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: References: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> <4F6798D4.80600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F67E1F9.6020300@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/03/12 8:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 19, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 3/19/12 1:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>> MPW C was MrC, which (IIRC) is an evolution of old THINK C. >>> >> >> The original MPW C was licensed from Green Hills. The Apple >> developed compiler was written in Pascal by the MPW team. > > That's fascinating, I had no idea. I see a lot of applications > where our clients should have used Green Hills OSes. :-) > > The original MPW compilers (I don't recall if it was C or not) > had some pretty funny error messages, too. Shame those got > lost At one time somebody collected them on the web. Oh wait, they're still there: http://www.ralentz.com/old/mac/humor/mpw-c-errors.html I remember getting several of these. --T > in the transition to SC (which was, I think, Symantec). > > > - Dave > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 19 20:49:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:49:00 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F67CD63.4040602@brouhaha.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <232A73AB-86BF-4933-BA35-BBD692BCFD90@gmail.com>, <4F67CD63.4040602@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F677F9C.16376.4434A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Mar 2012 at 17:20, Eric Smith wrote: > The processor architects at Intel assumed that once you entered > protected mode, you wouldn't want to go back. Arguably that was a > little short-sighted of them, but then, back when the 286 was being > designed (starting around 1980) the IBM PC wasn't even on the market, > so it clearly wasn't obvious that the IBM PC and its descendants were > going to become the most popular general-purpose computing platform on > the planet. I think it was reasonable--how many mini- and mainframe machines are *always* operated in protected mode, while "real" mode is viewed as sort of a bootup or maintenance mode? Aside from maintenance tasks, would you really expect to see a S/370 with the DAT box disabled in normal everyday use? To their credit, both IBM and Microsoft tried to make 286 PM work for real-mode programs. But programs from the x86 that fooled with the segment registers really messed that idea up. I can't really fault Intel for their thinking. 286-style segmentation, yes--that was just awful. But that was corrected with the 386. But then, by the time of the 386, who needed an A20 gate? Perhaps, if on the release of the PC, a "design guide" would have been published that anticipated the 286 PM release might have been useful. But for how many years was the 80386 usually run in real mode? --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 21:20:27 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:20:27 -0700 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> References: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> >> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. ?I'm in the US. > > > ?I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) ?I'm interested in > RA8x drives as well. > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > Do you have an SA600/650/800/850/900 for RA9x drives? I have an SA72 but no SA650/850/900 to mount it in. I haven't looked at that box in a while. I remember it being rather heavy. I think it probably has one dead RA72 in it and I think I removed a working RA72 from it to replace a dead one in a BA213 box -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 19 21:52:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 22:52:21 -0400 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F67F0E5.6040705@neurotica.com> On 03/19/2012 10:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >>> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. >> >> I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm interested in >> RA8x drives as well. > > Do you have an SA600/650/800/850/900 for RA9x drives? I have an SA72 > but no SA650/850/900 to mount it in. Sadly I don't. > I haven't looked at that box in > a while. I remember it being rather heavy. Ohhhh yes. > I think it probably has > one dead RA72 in it and I think I removed a working RA72 from it to > replace a dead one in a BA213 box I like those little 5.25" SDI drives. I wish there were more of them around. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 23:15:29 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:15:29 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <4F67E1F9.6020300@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> <4F6798D4.80600@bitsavers.org> <4F67E1F9.6020300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> The original MPW compilers... had some pretty >> funny error messages, too. ?Shame those got lost > > At one time somebody collected them on the web. > > Oh wait, they're still there: > http://www.ralentz.com/old/mac/humor/mpw-c-errors.html > > I remember getting several of these. I remember these. My favorite: "a typedef name was a complete surprise to me at this point in your program" -ethan From ark72axow at msn.com Mon Mar 19 01:32:18 2012 From: ark72axow at msn.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 02:32:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter Message-ID: I just started using Google Adwords and I?m trying to figure out how they charge. I just finished the free first time allotment of $75, now I have to add more money. Does anyone have any experience with this ? Also I?m looking into the Yahoo/Bing adcenter.microsoft.com. They don?t seem to offer a free first time allotment. Does anyone know of any way to get a free startup allotment ? Jeff Brace From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 17:47:35 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:47:35 -0600 Subject: Finally running with new software Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , <4F669EE9.605@snarc.net>, , , <4F66E844.8080101@brouhaha.com>, , , , Message-ID: > UCSD Pascal was useless. All it did was take up all the RAM, so you > couldn't actually write any code. The disk system was insane. Were > there any other Pascal flavours? I can't remember... There were many on the apple II: Laser PascalPegasus PascalSaturn PascalTurbo Pascal (for DOS and CPM)Complete Pascal (Used to be TML before the IIgs)Kyan PascalApple Pascal (based on UCSD)UCSD Pascal Might have been others...those the ones I have seen in the wild... Kevin From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 18:50:20 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:50:20 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?Richard > Date:?Mon, 19 Mar 2012 00:36:25 -0600 > Subject:?Re: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics > >> I didn't see any Calcomp System 25 Workstations in your collection. >> The RICM has LOTS of them. > > I wasn't aware of these systems. ?According to Computerworld, Calcomp > sold off the division after having an installed base of only 800 units > in order to avoid competing with its own peripherals customers. > > > This seems to be a workstation introduced in 1984. ?What kind of > graphics environment did it have? ?1984 is too early for X11 and also > I think too early for X10. The page for the Calcomps is here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/calcomp-system-25 The RICM has LOTs of documentation on the systems, but have not powered one on yet. -- Michael Thompson From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 20 01:43:14 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 23:43:14 -0700 Subject: PDP 8L In-Reply-To: <73fbe2$ncioh@fipsb02.cogeco.net> References: <73fbe2$ncioh@fipsb02.cogeco.net> Message-ID: From: "Charles E. Fox": Monday, March 19, 2012 2:05 PM > We are trying to revive a PDP 8L, and wonder if anyone can > advise us of the equivalent of the DEC1008 transistor, npn > germanium, Hmm. Everything I've looked up about these says the DEC1008 is a rebadged MM1008, which in turn is similar to the 2N3444. The Motorola MM1008 and the 2N3444 are silicon NPN, not germanium. You can buy 2N3444 here: http://www.surplussales.com/Semiconductors/Transistors-SCR-1.html > and also where we might track down any of the following boards: > > G228, G826, G624, G221. I see them on eBay from time to time. G624 -- item #270937110031, for example. Hope that helps! Vince From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 20 01:57:19 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 23:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: identify a weird lug Message-ID: I'm trying to identify a battery clip that seems to actually be a lug of some kind. Would someone please take a look at http://661.org/tmp/kk2048.jpg and tell me what it might be? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 20 02:31:42 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:31:42 +0100 Subject: PDP 8L In-Reply-To: References: <73fbe2$ncioh@fipsb02.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <20120320073142.GA29940@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:43:14PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Hmm. Everything I've looked up about these says the DEC1008 is a > rebadged MM1008, which in turn is similar to the 2N3444. The > Motorola MM1008 and the 2N3444 are silicon NPN, not germanium. A chap here in sweden is doing an extraordinary restoration of a rusty old 8/L. He also contemplated using 2N3444 and one or two other variants. I'll find out what i actually used in the end. (He also confirms that DEC1008 are the same ase MM1008) Regards, Pontus. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 03:14:27 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:14:27 +0000 Subject: identify a weird lug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 6:57 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm trying to identify a battery clip that seems to actually be a lug of > some kind. ?Would someone please take a look at > http://661.org/tmp/kk2048.jpg and tell me what it might be? double ended solder tag http://www.buckle-clips.co.uk/solder-tags.htm Dave Caroline > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave12 at dunfield.com Tue Mar 20 08:27:13 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:27:13 -0500 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? Message-ID: <4F6877A1.30665.1AED11@dave12.dunfield.com> >> Which was the cause of a bug in the RS232 driver of the original IBM >> 5150 BIOS... However, I as going to be more charitable in the case of >> the FDC chip and wonder if it was duw to the fact that IIRC the >> origianl IBM 3740 format used a sector as the equivalent of a punched >> card, so only the first 80 chracters were used. > >Your charity might be misplaced. The 765 works just fine with 128 >byte sectors in FM mode. So Chuck ... do you know exactly how this works (as opposed to how it is documented)? 128 bytes/sector is a special case in the 765 (at least it is documented as such). According to the NEC documents, for the sector read and write commands, if you give it a value of 0 for 'n' (6th byte of the command = Number of bytes/sector), the actual number of bytes read/written is determined by the 9th byte written 'DTL' (DaTa Length). The docs don't go into much detail, and I haven't fooled with it much - I just set DTL to 128 when I am reading or writing 128 byte sectors (n=0). A few questions which are not clearly answered by the docs: under "READ DATA" "When N=0, then DTL defines the data length which the FDC must treat as a sector. If DTL is smaller than the actual data length in a sector, the data beyond DTL in the sector is not sent to the data bus. The FDC reads (internally) the complete Sector performing the CRC check, and depending upon the manner of the command termination, may perform a multi-sector read operatiohn. When 'N' is non-zero, then DTL has no meaning and should be set to FF hexidecimal" under "WRITE DATA" there is mention of N=0 or DTL ... but DTL is shown as a part of the write commands, and generally described as "DTL - Data Length - when N is defined as 00, DTL stands for the data length which users are going to read out or write into the sector". The read description seems to imply that the FDC "knows" the actual length of a sector, and only reads the number of bytes specified, while calculating the CRC over the whole sector. - How does it "know" the sector size ... the 'n' field in the ID header is the only place in the sector data that defines the size. - Does it assume the sector is 128 bytes? - or Does it actually read (and check CRC) on a smaller sector? -What is the actual behaviour during write? - Does it fill the remainder of a 128 byte sector with some value? - or Does it actually write a smaller sector? under "FORMAT TRACK" (in the chart notes) "(3) In MFM mode the FDC cannot perform a read/write/format operation with 128 bytes/sector (N = 00)" This implies that 128/MFM simply doesn't work - not even for format (which you indicated earlier actually does work). Is this a fairly reliable assumption? Does DTL have any effect on 128/MFM reads or writes? You mentioned that 80 bytes get transferred instead of 128. Does changing DTL make a difference? Or is it always 80 bytes? Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 20 08:07:16 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:07:16 -0500 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> On Monday (03/19/2012 at 08:26PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The zero button is complementary binary, removing spikes changes the > > number to a higher number, but sorry I cant remember which does which. > > Look at the other buttons if you have a spare zero button. > > IIRC there are 2 pins at the sides, it's the top and bottm edges of those > that matter. Each edge can eiterh be straight out cut in a bit, they > operate 4 contacts i nthe lamphoder. One always operates when the cap is > fitted (this inidcates a cap _is_ fitted, removign the cap disables the > drive). the other 3 edges encode a 3 bit (yes, I do mean _3_ binary > number). In the RL's, only the bottom 2 bits are used, the RK06/RK07 use > all 3 bits (and ahve caps numbered from 0-7), I think some CDC drives > used a simlar system, but the cape was opaque and didn't also act as the > 'ready' lamp. > > Therefore, if you don't care abotu the cap showing the right number you > can use an RK06/RK07 #6 cap on an RL and it'll work as #2. Or you can cut > or jumper traces on the frontpanel board to fake the appopriate contacts. > But I assume the OP wants to keep his drive original. As I discussed with Dave off the list, the difference between a "0" and a "2" is very minimal. On one of the pins, the "0" has all the material on the pin all the way to the end while the "2" has the material removed. You could turn a "0" into a "2" with a little epoxy to rebuild the pin and some filing to fit and then buff the 0 logo off and paint on a 2. This of course assumes 0's are more prevalent than 2's. Making clones of these caps seems like an ideal application for 3D printing so I am poking around with the mechanical and industrial designers here to see if you could do that "economically". Chris -- Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 09:04:35 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:04:35 +0000 Subject: Mac 68k toolbox calls (was: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: <4F67E1F9.6020300@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201203192025.q2JKPZ7k9044102@floodgap.com> <4F6798D4.80600@bitsavers.org> <4F67E1F9.6020300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 20 March 2012 01:48, Toby Thain wrote: > On 19/03/12 8:18 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> On Mar 19, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> On 3/19/12 1:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>>> MPW C was MrC, which (IIRC) is an evolution of old THINK C. >>>> >>> >>> The original MPW C was licensed from Green Hills. The Apple >>> developed compiler was written in Pascal by the MPW team. >> >> >> That's fascinating, I had no idea. ?I see a lot of applications >> where our clients should have used Green Hills OSes. :-) >> >> The original MPW compilers (I don't recall if it was C or not) >> had some pretty funny error messages, too. ?Shame those got >> lost > > > At one time somebody collected them on the web. > > Oh wait, they're still there: > http://www.ralentz.com/old/mac/humor/mpw-c-errors.html > > I remember getting several of these. Excellent! Nicked for Twitter. :?) A very brief Google revealed that some hero has collected all the BeOS NetPositive browser haiku errors, too: http://8325.org/haiku/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Mar 20 09:07:06 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 09:07:06 -0500 Subject: FORTH chips (was: Re: Finally running with new software Apple IIe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:40 -0500 3/20/12, Dave wrote: > Forth chips are awesome, as is Forth. I've never messed with the >Novix chips (NC4000 series?) but I have a couple of Harris RTX2010 chips >here, as well as one of Chuck Moore's new GA144s. 144 hly simple cores >on a chip! Great stuff. I'll have that on a board soon. Several of the instruments on payloads we have flown (including 2 instruments going to Pluto) use RTX2010's for the instrument controllers. (JHU-APL built those instruments (LORRI and PEPSSI) and did a great job with them and their FORTH software.) So in the category of out-of-this-world performance and reliability, RTX2010 is one of my favorite CPU's too. Let us know when you do something cool with yours! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Mar 20 10:10:48 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:10:48 -0400 Subject: FORTH chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F689DF8.2090707@verizon.net> On 3/20/2012 10:07 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 1:40 -0500 3/20/12, Dave wrote: >> Forth chips are awesome, as is Forth. I've never messed with the >> Novix chips (NC4000 series?) but I have a couple of Harris RTX2010 chips >> here, as well as one of Chuck Moore's new GA144s. 144 hly simple cores >> on a chip! Great stuff. I'll have that on a board soon. > > Several of the instruments on payloads we have flown (including 2 > instruments going to Pluto) use RTX2010's for the instrument > controllers. (JHU-APL built those instruments (LORRI and PEPSSI) and did > a great job with them and their FORTH software.) So in the category of > out-of-this-world performance and reliability, RTX2010 is one of my > favorite CPU's too. Let us know when you do something cool with yours! Gameduino, an FPGA-based game adapter for the arduino, which is also available as an open-source core, uses a soft-core processor called j0, stripped-down version of the j1. http://excamera.com/sphinx/gameduino/index.html#gameduino The J1 is a 200-line-long-verilog CPU. See here http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html I have not used yet, but looks pretty neat to me. Keith From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:48:19 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:48:19 +0100 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> References: <4F67D619.2000609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:58 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks > On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. > > I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm interested > in RA8x drives as well. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Haha, I have at least 5 RA82 compete drives, but I really am *not* considering shipping them. Pick up only, but this time the chaps in the USA are at the wrong side of the big splash. I also have a few RA90 and RA70 IIRC, I'd have to check. I might be willing to sell one or two, but shipping from The Netherlands to anywhere will certainly be costly! And My testing will be very limited. I have an SA72 which can hold 4 RA9x drives, but I can not test them beyond power up to the "READY" state (IIRC). AFAICR, you can not simply install the RA70 in the SA72. - Henk. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 11:54:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 09:54:57 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4F6877A1.30665.1AED11@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F6877A1.30665.1AED11@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4F6853F1.17503.24E715@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2012 at 8:27, Dave Dunfield wrote: > According to the NEC documents, for the sector read and write > commands, if you give it a value of 0 for 'n' (6th byte of the > command = Number of bytes/sector), the actual number of bytes > read/written is determined by the 9th byte written 'DTL' (DaTa > Length). > > The docs don't go into much detail, and I haven't fooled with it > much - I just set DTL to 128 when I am reading or writing 128 byte > sectors (n=0). I recall that I spent too much time with MFM 128-byte sectors with the 765 to determine that it was simply broken. Setting DTL to all 256 possible values did not result in any improvement. This was a shame, because there are formats using 128 byte MFM sectors. We left them out of 22DISK to spare everyone grief, but we have them tucked away somewhere for those who have the NS versions of the FDC. As far as I can determine, the DTL thing was intended for some sort of 3740 compliance--take a look at a factory-formatted floppy and you'll see that the first 80 bytes of a sector are preset to 40h (EBCIDIC bspace) and the rest is the background format pattern. This is not to be confused with the WD17xx controllers which can, in "non IBM mode" format/read/write sectors smaller than 128 bytes. I can't say that I've ever run into any 64-byte sectors, but the WD feature does operate as advertised. --Chuck From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 08:53:04 2012 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 09:53:04 -0400 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: <4F679D50.6020605@bluewin.ch> References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> <4F679D50.6020605@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 19 March 2012 16:55, Jos Dreesen wrote: [...] > I have put the Makefile online, ?ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/Emulith/Makefile, > ?so diehards can look at it and probably find glaringly obvious mistakes. The permissions do not allow ftp downloads: -rw------- 1 1000 1000 4017 Mar 18 09:59 Makefile N. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Mar 20 12:39:54 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:39:54 +0100 Subject: Good OS-X programmers out here ? In-Reply-To: References: <4F64F8D8.9070202@bluewin.ch> <4F679D50.6020605@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4F68C0EA.7000705@bluewin.ch> On 03/20/2012 02:53 PM, Nemo wrote: > On 19 March 2012 16:55, Jos Dreesen wrote: > [...] >> I have put the Makefile online, ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/Emulith/Makefile, >> so diehards can look at it and probably find glaringly obvious mistakes. > The permissions do not allow ftp downloads: > > -rw------- 1 1000 1000 4017 Mar 18 09:59 Makefile > > N. > > Fixed..... Sorry, was a bit late yesterday Jos From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Mar 20 12:44:35 2012 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:44:35 -0500 Subject: FS: p-Source book Message-ID: <3F7D3CE7-23EF-4BC6-8279-E9C74DC0F546@centurytel.net> FS: Randall Hyde's 1983 "p-Source: A Guide to the Apple Pascal System". Paperback. Very good condition. Originally cost $24.95! Yours for just $5 plus postage from US zip 65775. thanks Charles From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 20 14:46:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:46:57 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > >> I didn't see any Calcomp System 25 Workstations in your collection. > >> The RICM has LOTS of them. > > From: Richard > > I wasn't aware of these systems. [...] > > This seems to be a workstation introduced in 1984. What kind of > > graphics environment did it have? 1984 is too early for X11 and also > > I think too early for X10. > > The page for the Calcomps is here: > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/calcomp-system-25 > > The RICM has LOTs of documentation on the systems, but have not > powered one on yet. It seems the graphics was on a dedicated display peripheral and a text screen was used for input and program interaction. Are you involved with the RICM? I'd be interested to know what happens to these systems. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 14:55:05 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:55:05 -0700 Subject: identify a weird lug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 20, 2012 12:13 AM, "David Griffith" wrote: > > > I'm trying to identify a battery clip that seems to actually be a lug of some kind. Would someone please take a look at http://661.org/tmp/kk2048.jpg and tell me what it might be? > Is that an HP-48 RAM card you were asking about recently? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 15:25:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:25:38 -0400 Subject: FORTH chips In-Reply-To: <4F689DF8.2090707@verizon.net> References: <4F689DF8.2090707@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F68E7C2.5080109@neurotica.com> On 03/20/2012 11:10 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Gameduino, an FPGA-based game adapter for the arduino, which is also > available as an open-source core, uses a soft-core processor called j0, > stripped-down version of the j1. > > http://excamera.com/sphinx/gameduino/index.html#gameduino > > The J1 is a 200-line-long-verilog CPU. > > See here > > http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html > > I have not used yet, but looks pretty neat to me. I just looked at the Verilog code. Wow, that's an unbelievably tiny CPU. Chuck Moore would be proud! I've gotta use that somewhere. Need some (non-game) applications! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 15:26:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:26:53 -0400 Subject: FORTH chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F68E80D.1080705@neurotica.com> On 03/20/2012 10:07 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 1:40 -0500 3/20/12, Dave wrote: >> Forth chips are awesome, as is Forth. I've never messed with the >> Novix chips (NC4000 series?) but I have a couple of Harris RTX2010 chips >> here, as well as one of Chuck Moore's new GA144s. 144 hly simple cores >> on a chip! Great stuff. I'll have that on a board soon. > > Several of the instruments on payloads we have flown (including 2 > instruments going to Pluto) use RTX2010's for the instrument > controllers. (JHU-APL built those instruments (LORRI and PEPSSI) and did > a great job with them and their FORTH software.) So in the category of > out-of-this-world performance and reliability, RTX2010 is one of my > favorite CPU's too. Let us know when you do something cool with yours! It surely won't be THAT cool! ;) I'm hoping to get to it soon. Too damn busy. I've successfully made the transition from not having enough money to do anything, to not having enough time to do anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 20 15:40:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:40:30 -0600 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> References: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: In article <20120320130716.GB25942 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist writes: > Making clones of these caps seems like an ideal application for 3D > printing so I am poking around with the mechanical and industrial > designers here to see if you could do that "economically". If you get me a design file, I bet I could get you one printed for gratis (or near gratis) as an experiment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 15:58:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:58:05 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com> On 03/20/2012 04:40 PM, Richard wrote: >> Making clones of these caps seems like an ideal application for 3D >> printing so I am poking around with the mechanical and industrial >> designers here to see if you could do that "economically". > > If you get me a design file, I bet I could get you one printed for > gratis (or near gratis) as an experiment. I'll volunteer to test these if you have them made. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 16:25:06 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:25:06 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com> References: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/20/2012 04:40 PM, Richard wrote: >>> >>> Making clones of these caps seems like an ideal application for 3D >>> printing so I am poking around with the mechanical and industrial >>> designers here to see if you could do that "economically". >> >> >> If you get me a design file, I bet I could get you one printed for >> gratis (or near gratis) as an experiment. > > > ?I'll volunteer to test these if you have them made. I was looking at the shape and especially the tines... I think it would be a great thing to make with a 3D printer, but long, thin parts tend to be fragile, especially when "drawn" on a fused filament deposition printer "against the grain". Liquid polymer and sintered powder objects don't have as much of a dimensional strength/weakness issue, but a tower made of stacked slices of 0.5mm-wide filament isn't particularly strong. For the application of an RL/RK unit select plug, once the plug is in place, it's supported and isn't likely to see much lateral stress on the thin bits, but handling and insertion could damage the plug. One thought I had was a generic plug with slots that would admit long, thin select cams that are printed flat then glued into place (neutral-color ABS would great for this, for the translucent milky color and the fact that acetone welds ABS well). So you'd print generic bodies, face down (orientation also matters with inexpensive FDM printers with no support material), then print two "legs" per plug, also flat to the bed. You would then select the legs based on what the unit number is desired. Slide/place the legs in slots in the body and a swipe of acetone later, it's a finished device. The heated bed on most printers would give the face of the plug a smooth appearance that would require little finishing, just a digit sticker or a moment with a Sharpie. You might have to remove the flash around the rim of the body that happens when the bottom layer spreads on the heated bed, but that's a few seconds with a file or knife. ABS welding rod is $15/lb. Plugs are so small and light that the amount of plastic is trivial. Liquid monomer resin for stereo lithography is not as cheap - $600-$800/gallon, so even small parts can be expensive. Fill a graduated cylinder with water and measure the displacement of one plug to estimate the resin cost there - probably on the order of $0.25-$1.00 - easy to get samples from a friendly source, but if you wanted dozens, somebody is likely to want the resin paid for. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 20 16:01:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:01:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: identify a weird lug In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Mar 19, 12 11:57:19 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm trying to identify a battery clip that seems to actually be a lug of > some kind. Would someone please take a look at > http://661.org/tmp/kk2048.jpg and tell me what it might be? Looks liek a double-ended solder tag. a noraml (signle ended) solder tag has a hole to solder a wire to (whcih is oftne not circular) and a circular hole to put over a screw or wahtever. A double-ended sodler tag has 3 holes, a circular one in the middle ot go on the screw, and holes to solder wires to at each end. FWIW, I have seen 8-ended solder tags. A star-shaped thing with a hold in the middle fo the screw and 8 arms with holes to soder wires to. Used for earhing points on metal chassis units, etc. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 16:38:19 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:38:19 -0000 Subject: Wang system in UK Message-ID: <5CC474373F274E91BBF65080A9CD0888@EMACHINE> Price is silly but appears to be open to offers... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WANG-VS7150-VS7010-3270-terminals-Diskpacks-1980s- Computing-Props-/220974541399?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL &hash=item33731bea57 Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 16:38:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:38:35 -0700 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: , <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4F68966B.4423.1289143@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2012 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was looking at the shape and especially the tines... I think it > would be a great thing to make with a 3D printer, but long, thin parts > tend to be fragile, especially when "drawn" on a fused filament > deposition printer "against the grain". > > Liquid polymer and sintered powder objects don't have as much of a > dimensional strength/weakness issue, but a tower made of stacked > slices of 0.5mm-wide filament isn't particularly strong. For the > application of an RL/RK unit select plug, once the plug is in place, > it's supported and isn't likely to see much lateral stress on the thin > bits, but handling and insertion could damage the plug. > > One thought I had was a generic plug with slots that would admit long, > thin select cams that are printed flat then glued into place > (neutral-color ABS would great for this, for the translucent milky > color and the fact that acetone welds ABS well). Don Lancaster says he's done injection molding with a hot glue gun: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/resbn50.pdf --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 19:16:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:16:36 -0400 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <20120318111407.GA2329@thangorodrim.de> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE> <4F64EACE.2060205@neurotica.com> <201203180317.XAA01493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F655713.2070108@neurotica.com> <201203180412.AAA03411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F6562D1.8060505@neurotica.com> <20120318111407.GA2329@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4F691DE4.4050502@neurotica.com> On 03/18/2012 07:14 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> Sure it can. But does anyone run their consoles at anything other >> than 9600 8N1? Seriously? > > (raise :hand) > > We run the consoles of our kit @ 115200, because 9600 is just a pain in > the posterior. But those are current server machines ;-) Hmm. I run my (modern server) consoles at 9600, because that's what everything else uses, and I don't actually use the consoles often enough for it to be a pain. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 19:36:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:36:33 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F692291.1070404@neurotica.com> On 03/19/2012 04:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC there are 2 pins at the sides, it's the top and bottm edges of those > that matter. Each edge can eiterh be straight out cut in a bit, they > operate 4 contacts i nthe lamphoder. One always operates when the cap is > fitted (this inidcates a cap _is_ fitted, removign the cap disables the > drive). the other 3 edges encode a 3 bit (yes, I do mean _3_ binary > number). In the RL's, only the bottom 2 bits are used, the RK06/RK07 use > all 3 bits (and ahve caps numbered from 0-7), I think some CDC drives > used a simlar system, but the cape was opaque and didn't also act as the > 'ready' lamp. I've seen this on many CDC drives. It's a small white plug, perhaps 1/4 the size of the DEC RL0[12]/RK07 unit select plug or a bit larger. Its plug end is shaped like a '+', and that's cut out in various ways to actuate the contacts in the socket. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 20 19:43:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:43:53 -0700 Subject: Unidentified Emulex card from 1991 In-Reply-To: <4F691DE4.4050502@neurotica.com> References: <73F16A245C344757B98BC1651CD7708A@EMACHINE>, <20120318111407.GA2329@thangorodrim.de>, <4F691DE4.4050502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F68C1D9.32070.1D23926@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Mar 2012 at 20:16, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hmm. I run my (modern server) consoles at 9600, because that's > what > everything else uses, and I don't actually use the consoles often > enough for it to be a pain. I can catch things scrolling by at 9600, but not at higher speeds, so I even run my MCU debug programs at that speed (over USB yet), even though they'll easily do in excess of 200K. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 20 19:50:23 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:50:23 -0600 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I was looking at the shape and especially the tines... I think it > would be a great thing to make with a 3D printer, but long, thin parts > tend to be fragile, especially when "drawn" on a fused filament > deposition printer "against the grain". Based on what I've seen come off the printers at the make group that meets at my museum, I'm betting it would work just fine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 20 21:26:11 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:26:11 -0500 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120321022611.GB28479@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (03/20/2012 at 05:25PM -0400), Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 03/20/2012 04:40 PM, Richard wrote: > >>> > >>> Making clones of these caps seems like an ideal application for 3D > >>> printing so I am poking around with the mechanical and industrial > >>> designers here to see if you could do that "economically". > >> > >> > >> If you get me a design file, I bet I could get you one printed for > >> gratis (or near gratis) as an experiment. > > > > > > ?I'll volunteer to test these if you have them made. > > I was looking at the shape and especially the tines... I think it > would be a great thing to make with a 3D printer, but long, thin parts > tend to be fragile, especially when "drawn" on a fused filament > deposition printer "against the grain". Yes-- I learned some stuff today from a guy in our ID group. The 3D printing he was familiar with would likely not have the precision we'd need to generate the pins accurately or reliably-- meaning they would probably be too fragile at that size. He suggested instead having a mold made and then molding these with some kind of mold process-- perhaps what you were suggesting with resins. I didn't have the pieces with me so they couldn't offer material options but I'll bring the pieces in and see what these guys think. We also have another company in our building who do this kind of prototype work all the time but there probably wouldn't be any "good buddy discount" there. Still investigating. How many people would be interested in RL01/RL02 id plugs should we find a way to have them made? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From arkaxow at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 21:50:24 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:50:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter Message-ID: I just started using Google Adwords and I?m trying to figure out how they charge. I just finished the free first time allotment of $75, now I have to add more money. Does anyone have any experience with this ? Also I?m looking into the Yahoo/Bing adcenter.microsoft.com. They don?t seem to offer a free first time allotment. Does anyone know of any way to get a free startup allotment ? Jeff Brace From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 20 22:29:32 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:29:32 -0400 Subject: OT: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> Jeff, Thats something to take to a google adwords forum, that's not just OT, but totally outside scope of this list... Jeffrey Brace wrote: > I just started using Google Adwords and I?m trying to figure out how they charge. I just finished the free first time allotment of $75, now I have to add more money. > Does anyone have any experience with this ? > Also I?m looking into the Yahoo/Bing adcenter.microsoft.com. They don?t seem to offer a free first time allotment. Does anyone know of any way to get a free startup allotment ? > Jeff Brace > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 20 23:17:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:17:14 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <20120321022611.GB28479@n0jcf.net> References: <20120320130716.GB25942@n0jcf.net> <4F68EF5D.7070606@neurotica.com> <20120321022611.GB28479@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4F69564A.9010709@neurotica.com> On 03/20/2012 10:26 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > How many people would be interested in RL01/RL02 id plugs should we find > a way to have them made? I'd be interested in a few. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From arkaxow at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 23:55:04 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:55:04 -0400 Subject: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter In-Reply-To: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> >That's something to take to a google adwords forum, that's not just OT, but >totally outside scope of this list... Ok. Sorry. I was just thinking that those people here are very technical and might have some knowledge of this topic. I guess I was wrong. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 21 00:01:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 01:01:57 -0400 Subject: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter In-Reply-To: <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> References: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <4F6960C5.8060100@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2012 12:55 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> That's something to take to a google adwords forum, that's not just >> OT, but totally outside scope of this list... > > Ok. Sorry. I was just thinking that those people here are very technical > and might have some knowledge of this topic. I guess I was wrong. How is Google Adwords technical? ;) *poke* -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 21 00:06:28 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:06:28 -0700 Subject: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter In-Reply-To: <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> References: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <4F6961D4.8040300@brouhaha.com> Jeffrey Brace wrote: > Ok. Sorry. I was just thinking that those people here are very > technical and might have some knowledge of this topic. I guess I was > wrong. Some people here are very technical, and some might have knowledge of that topic, and the intersection of those sets might be non-null, but that still doesn't make it on-topic. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 20 12:24:05 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:24:05 -0500 Subject: need interface to CDC Keystone (92185) tape drive Message-ID: <4F68BD35.9030607@pico-systems.com> Hello, I was referred by a member, Peter Wallace. We are trying to recover some programs from 9-track backup tapes. I have a working 92185 drive, and had salvaged a SCSI - Pertec formatted interface converter off the back of a Cipher 990 drive at work. The Cipher 990 was total crap, hardly ever worked. The SCSI converter actually worked for a while, I was able to read a few blocks of tape (without a proper program to handle the format, I just did stuff like sudo cat /dev/st0 on a linux system, and got info that looked like the first couple records off a tape. Then, the converter died, it stopped passing its internal self test. But, I had proved the 92185 drive is OK. So, now I'm looking for a way to read these tapes. The best solution would be an off-the-shelf SCSI - Pertec converter, which were made some years ago, but will be hard to find on eBay or such. Another way is to find the SCSI interface board for the 92185, but I've never found one to buy. Another way is to get my Vaxstation running again, the hard drive blew, so it would take some effort to get that back up. I have a Dilog DQ15 controller for it, and if that won't work, I probably have another tape controller, too. Another problem with the VAX is I'd have pull all the data off the tape over a serial interface, it was last running VMS 4.7 without TCP networking. Anybody got any goodies in the basement, any good ideas of how to interface it, etc.? One other choice is to build my own FPGA Pertec interface. The formatted Pertec interface is about as simple as you could imagine, but I'd need to add an SRAM buffer to the FPGA to handle up to 64K byte blocks. Jon From trestivo at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 20 13:50:51 2012 From: trestivo at cfl.rr.com (THOM RESTIVO) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:50:51 -0400 Subject: PDP8/e help finding parts Message-ID: I've got a pdp8/e that I'm getting ready to sell but first I need to replace 3 of the toggles on the front. (not the actual switch, just the plastic.) Does anyone know where I can get some of these? I have the 3 pieces that need to replaced, it's just that the "nibs" are broken. Thomas Restivo Technical Assurance Resources, Inc. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 21 02:07:30 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 08:07:30 +0100 Subject: PDP8/e help finding parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120321070730.GA29716@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 02:50:51PM -0400, THOM RESTIVO wrote: > I've got a pdp8/e that I'm getting ready to sell but first I need to replace > 3 of the toggles on the front. (not the actual switch, just the plastic.) > Does anyone know where I can get some of these? I have the 3 pieces that They are not so easy to find, they tend to break. However, if it's only the nibble you can drill through the switch and put a piano wire of appropriate gauge in place. Cheers, Pontus. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 06:51:03 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: need interface to CDC Keystone (92185) tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F68BD35.9030607@pico-systems.com> References: <4F68BD35.9030607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Mar 2012, Jon Elson wrote: > Hello, > > I was referred by a member, Peter Wallace. > We are trying to recover some programs from 9-track backup tapes. I have a 9-track drive that interfaces to an ISA bus PC through a proprietary card. It worked the last time I fired it up (about 10 years ago) and has been in dry storage. Questions: - What is the bpi density on those tapes? This thing will not read the highest density tapes. - Where are you located? Steve -- From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Mar 21 08:31:49 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:31:49 -0400 Subject: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter In-Reply-To: <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> References: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <4F69D845.9000609@atarimuseum.com> If we applied "technical" view to any questions/scenario then we'd have threads on everything from calories in cupcakes to creationism to why elmo's hair is red.... however, none of which have any to do with classic computers. I only have a few free moments each day to read this list and the March list so I'd prefer to go through threads which pertain to why I subscribed to this list in the first place and not tangent threads on topics which have nothing to do with classic computing at all. Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> That's something to take to a google adwords forum, that's not just >> OT, but totally outside scope of this list... > > Ok. Sorry. I was just thinking that those people here are very > technical and might have some knowledge of this topic. I guess I was > wrong. > > > > From devonstopps at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 08:39:10 2012 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:39:10 -0400 Subject: Free: Hughes Personal Earth Station Message-ID: <4F69D9FE.2070608@gmail.com> Not sure if anyone has any interest in a Hughes Personal Earth Station circa 1989 - was in use up until early 2011. I also have 3x serial interface breakout boxes with 4 ports each for it. Looks similar to: http://www.mebstore.com/items/item_display.aspx?iid=61910 http://www.thrustssc.com/thrustssc/Equipment/Hughes/PES_and_CODECs.JPG Free for pickup, item is in Toronto, ON, otherwise will be scrapped next week. From arkaxow at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 09:11:19 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:11:19 -0400 Subject: Google AdWords and Yahoo/Bing adCenter In-Reply-To: <4F69D845.9000609@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F694B1C.9020009@atarimuseum.com> <3310BEFC5C5A459C842A703E897B2A3E@ArkCompNew> <4F69D845.9000609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Curt @ Atari Museum >I'd prefer to go through threads which pertain to why I subscribed to this >list in the first place and not tangent threads on topics which have >nothing to do with classic computing at all. Ok. Got it. I had also thought that I had put OT in the subject, so that others would be able to skip it. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 21 10:54:25 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:54:25 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: From: Steven Hirsch Subject: Re: need interface to CDC Keystone (92185) tape drive Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tue, 20 Mar 2012, Jon Elson wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I was referred by a member, Peter Wallace. > > We are trying to recover some programs from 9-track backup tapes. > I have a 9-track drive that interfaces to an ISA bus PC through a proprietary card. It worked the last time I fired it up (about 10 years ago) and has been in dry storage. Questions: - What is the bpi density on those tapes? This thing will not read the highest density tapes. - Where are you located? Well, some are 1600 BPI, some are 6250. I have verified my drive is working at both densities (before the SCSI adapter died.) I am in St. Louis, MO. I am working on an FPGA interface to the Pertec formatted interface, it ought to work, but I don't know how much fooling around it will take to get reliable data transfers. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 21 10:57:24 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 08:57:24 -0700 Subject: Preferred image format for HP single-sided 3.5" floppies? In-Reply-To: <232A73AB-86BF-4933-BA35-BBD692BCFD90@gmail.com> References: <4F64D335.1000707@bitsavers.org>, <4F65CED4.27352.39C27F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F664181.10263.261703C@dave12.dunfield.com> <4F65F304.12559.47A87B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120318150057.F92854@shell.lmi.net> <232A73AB-86BF-4933-BA35-BBD692BCFD90@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, the A20 "issue" was due to a compatibility issue with some software (can't remember at this point) where the SW was relying on the fact that addresses would wrap around the 1M point on the 8086/8. They were doing something akin to: mov ds, 0ffffh mov si, 501h mov ax, 0(si) That would cause ax to be loaded from 500h. Don't know why they were doing it but it was some important SW and it wouldn't work on the 286 without the "hack" since the 286 had 24 bit addressing. Compatibility?the bane of us all. TTFN - Guy On Mar 19, 2012, at 4:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 18, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sun, 18 Mar 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> The problem with the 765 core and 128 byte MFM is that the whole >>> sector doesn't get transferred--only the first 80 (decimal) bytes. >> >> I can't help speculating whether that could be something as ridiculously >> improbably simple as an engineer using too high-level a tool, and leaving >> off the 'h' in "80h" > > I suspect the 286's A20 "oopsie" was due to someone writing "0-20" > in a highlevel spec somewhere instead of "0-19". Caused no end of > grief, and IBM's workaround was a pretty gross hack at best. > > > - Dave > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 11:12:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 12:12:17 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> On Mar 21, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > I am working on an FPGA interface to the Pertec formatted interface, > it ought to work, but I don't know how much fooling around it will > take to get reliable data transfers. Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 internally, nothing fancier than that. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 21 12:05:26 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:05:26 -0600 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > On Mar 21, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > I am working on an FPGA interface to the Pertec formatted interface, > > it ought to work, but I don't know how much fooling around it will > > take to get reliable data transfers. > > Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would > imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill > (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to > just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 > internally, nothing fancier than that. Pertec shield for Arduino, anyone? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 21 12:11:56 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Richard wrote: > >> Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would >> imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill >> (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to >> just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 >> internally, nothing fancier than that. > > Pertec shield for Arduino, anyone? :-) > Ok, THAT would be cool. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Mar 21 12:17:04 2012 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:17:04 -0700 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6A0D10.2040004@snowmoose.com> On 3/21/12 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> > On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >>> >> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >>> >> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. >> > >> > I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm interested >> > in RA8x drives as well. >> > I have a couple of RA81s that were working when I got them 13 years ago (but haven't been powered on since). Located in the Seattle area. alan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 12:30:11 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 13:30:11 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. ?I would >>> imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. ?An FPGA may be overkill >>> (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to >>> just use a microcontroller... >> >> Pertec shield for Arduino, anyone? :-) >> > Ok, THAT would be cool. :) Yeah it would! Given the limited amount of RAM on an Arduino-class processor (even a MEGA), it would likely have to have some type of SPI-interfaced buffer, and unless that was in the multi-megabyte range, it would be hard to keep the drive streaming. ISTR a 1600 bpi full-sized reel holds around 45MB? Back in the day, I remember having to put a little work into the problem of keeping our TU78 streaming on our 11/750. The TU-80 was a little easier to keep moving. One could put on a 2MB-8MB buffer, read as many blocks as fit, then disgorge to the host, then repeat. Because the usual interface is just an async serial port, it will take some time between "runs", but it would be less stress on the media and the drive to be able to handle many blocks vs start-stop operation. What's the write speed for an Arduino with an SD interface? It might be more practical to build a "dumping appliance" that just spools the tape onto an SD card that is read later. If the tape is blocked in a known or reasonably simple format, it's feasible for the Arduino to emit individual files. Where it gets tricky is with "odd" tape formats, like bootable OS install tapes that may have a handful of different-sized files at the front to bring up a virgin system far enough to restore the big file or files at the end of the tape (common for PDP-11 and VAX UNIX install tapes, for example). Dumping wads of text files (ASCII or EBCDIC) or VMS BACKUP savesets is quite straightforward by comparison. A compromise could be a file-at-a-time tape reader where the host side tells the Arduino what the block size is and instructs the Arduino to read blocks to EOF or EOT. That shifts the analysis and other burdens off the microcontroller. It just tries to do what its told, and that might not succeed if its told to do something impossible, or if the media is too odd. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Mar 21 12:49:05 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:49:05 +0000 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F6A0D10.2040004@snowmoose.com> References: <4F6A0D10.2040004@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D803152@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Alan Perry Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:17 AM > I have a couple of RA81s that were working when I got them 13 years ago > (but haven't been powered on since). > Located in the Seattle area. 16-bit or 18-bit format? Which is to say, 512-byte or 576-byte sectors? ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From bqt at softjar.se Wed Mar 21 03:46:58 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:46:58 +0100 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> On 2012-03-20 18:00, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > From: "Dave McGuire" > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:58 AM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks > >> > On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >>> >> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part with? >>> >> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in the US. >> > >> > I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm interested >> > in RA8x drives as well. >> > >> > -Dave >> > >> > -- >> > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> > New Kensington, PA > > Haha, I have at least 5 RA82 compete drives, but I really am*not* > considering shipping them. Pick up only, but this time the chaps > in the USA are at the wrong side of the big splash. RA drives, except the RA7x ones, are probably way too expensive to ship longer distance. > I also have a few RA90 and RA70 IIRC, I'd have to check. > I might be willing to sell one or two, but shipping from The Netherlands > to anywhere will certainly be costly! And My testing will be very limited. > I have an SA72 which can hold 4 RA9x drives, but I can not test them > beyond power up to the "READY" state (IIRC). AFAICR, you can not > simply install the RA70 in the SA72. Hum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the SA72 the box that holds up to 4 RA7x drives? Same physical size as one RA90? If so, then no, it don't hold 4 RA9x drives. Also, the RA70 works just fine in it, as do all RA7x drives. RA70 is somewhat unique, though, in that it was designed to also be usable without any front panel at all. So there are dip switches on it that can be used to set the unit number. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:20:42 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:20:42 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 21, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One could put on a 2MB-8MB buffer, read as many blocks as fit, then > disgorge to the host, then repeat. Because the usual interface is > just an async serial port, it will take some time between "runs", but > it would be less stress on the media and the drive to be able to > handle many blocks vs start-stop operation. I'll say it would take a while. To get stuff onto tape with my 11/23 (which still doesn't have a proper operating system despite my best efforts), I wrote a little serial receiver program that writes to the tape. At 19200 baud (the max for the KDF-11's built-in port), it took a few hours to write the 2.9BSD tape, which was around 20MB. - Dave From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Mar 21 13:46:54 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:46:54 +0100 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> References: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> Message-ID: From: "Johnny Billquist" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:46 AM To: Subject: Re: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks > On 2012-03-20 18:00, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: >> From: "Dave McGuire" >> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:58 AM >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks >> >>> > On 03/19/2012 11:53 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >>>> >> Anyone have working RA90 or RA92 disks that they would like to part >>>> >> with? >>>> >> Send me a private response with pricing and availability. I'm in >>>> >> the US. >>> > >>> > I make the same request, in case someone has a bunch. =) I'm >>> > interested >>> > in RA8x drives as well. >>> > >>> > -Dave >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> > New Kensington, PA >> >> Haha, I have at least 5 RA82 compete drives, but I really am*not* >> considering shipping them. Pick up only, but this time the chaps >> in the USA are at the wrong side of the big splash. > > RA drives, except the RA7x ones, are probably way too expensive to ship > longer distance. > >> I also have a few RA90 and RA70 IIRC, I'd have to check. >> I might be willing to sell one or two, but shipping from The Netherlands >> to anywhere will certainly be costly! And My testing will be very >> limited. >> I have an SA72 which can hold 4 RA9x drives, but I can not test them >> beyond power up to the "READY" state (IIRC). AFAICR, you can not >> simply install the RA70 in the SA72. > > Hum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the SA72 the box that holds up to > 4 RA7x drives? Same physical size as one RA90? > > If so, then no, it don't hold 4 RA9x drives. Also, the RA70 works just > fine in it, as do all RA7x drives. RA70 is somewhat unique, though, in > that it was designed to also be usable without any front panel at all. So > there are dip switches on it that can be used to set the unit number. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol You may very well be right Johnny. I was just dumping my grey memory cells :-) I did not check the HW. Isn't the SA72 a small slim long metal box with a power supply in the middle and room for two RA[79]x drive at both ends? At the front side at the top is a connector for the small front panel. The width of the front is 0.5 of 19" so that two of these fit next to each other in a 19" rack. If that's way off, I'd have to check what I actually have ... - Henk. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:10:46 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:10:46 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: wheres one find a source of the 7 track tapes? i aquired a rack with some rk05's and a t6b40-9-45 u2 i think is a 7 track drive from the manual i found on bit savers describing t6x40 also gotta source a controllor and a cable for it got a pdp8a and a heathkit h11 http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/joncohen1/dec_boards127.jpg From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 21 14:20:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:20:08 -0400 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4F6A29E8.8040909@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2012 02:46 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I was just dumping my grey memory cells :-) I did not check the HW. > Isn't the SA72 a small slim long metal box with a power supply in the > middle and room for two RA[79]x drive at both ends? At the front side > at the top is a connector for the small front panel. The width of the front > is 0.5 of 19" so that two of these fit next to each other in a 19" rack. > If that's way off, I'd have to check what I actually have ... I have two of these...I think that's the correct number. I'm missing the control panel for one of them. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:34:36 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:34:36 -0400 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I was just dumping my grey memory cells :-) ?I did not check the HW. > Isn't the SA72 a small slim long metal box with a power supply in the > middle and room for two RA[79]x drive at both ends? Pictures? I have a couple of bare RA70 drives that I'd like to put into service on machines that already have SDI controllers and no SCSI. My present plans involve a plain shelf but a properly-fitting enclosure would be nice. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Mar 21 14:55:57 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:55:57 +0100 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> References: <4F699582.2040803@softjar.se> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:34 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: >> I was just dumping my grey memory cells :-) I did not check the HW. >> Isn't the SA72 a small slim long metal box with a power supply in the >> middle and room for two RA[79]x drive at both ends? > > Pictures? > > I have a couple of bare RA70 drives that I'd like to put into service > on machines that already have SDI controllers and no SCSI. My present > plans involve a plain shelf but a properly-fitting enclosure would be > nice. > > -ethan I can take a few pictures this weekend. Just got to find a good host for the pictures. My web space is near its limit. Any suggestions? The rack that holds the TU81+ tape drive has underneath the space for an RA8x drive. I had it that way, but one year ago I removed the RA82 and installed two of these SA72's. It is intended to be hooked up to the VAX-11/750, but the VAX has PSU "issues". I am pretty sure I have two more SA72 without drives, but contains the PSU is in it IIRC. However, even without any drives installed these things are good if you want to hurt your back :-/ So, shipping one is not an option. I even have a plate that is mounted in the rack ... If you wonder how the SA72 is mounted in a rack, given that its width is just half the width of the rack, well it just "hangs" on one side! The SA72 at the right side hangs on a plate mounted in the rack at the right side, and the SA72 at the left ... on a plate at the left side. Even such a plate is good for a few kilos on the scales! - Henk From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 15:20:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 13:20:38 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> References: , <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com>, <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F69D5A6.29298.BEC4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2012 at 12:12, David Riley wrote: > On Mar 21, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > I am working on an FPGA interface to the Pertec formatted interface, > > it ought to work, but I don't know how much fooling around it will > > take to get reliable data transfers. > > Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would > imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill > (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to > just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 > internally, nothing fancier than that. I worked out a Pertec interface in a CPLD so that anything capable of a wishbone interface could use it. One of the issues with Pertec/Cipher interface is it's dumb-as-a-stump. There are no buffer handshake lines, per se. If you've intiated a read, the drive throws data at you with a simple strobe--there's no acknoledge handshake. The same for write--and you're expected to compute the parity as well. Status bits range from real-time (i.e. drive is on-line) to transient (pulse during the frame transfer). No lines are bidirectional, so mostly the CPLD functions as a bus expander with some additional logic to compute parity and latch transient status bits. But heck, you could probably work out most of an interface with a couple of PIAs. Buffering on fast streamers, of course, helps considerably. I believe that the interface spec limits the transfer rate to about 1MB/sec. If you don't get around to issuing IGO during the IRG, the tape will stop, the drive will backspace and take a running start at the next block. Very time consuming. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 21 15:23:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 13:23:30 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4F69D652.18415.E8BF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2012 at 14:10, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wheres one find a source of the 7 track tapes? i aquired a rack with > some rk05's and a t6b40-9-45 u2 i think is a 7 track drive from the > manual i found on bit savers describing t6x40 also gotta source a > controllor and a cable for it got a pdp8a and a heathkit h11 > http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/joncohen1/dec_boards127.jpg Do you mean blank media? Isn't that similar to asking for a 100 tpi 5.25" floppy when all you have are 96 and 48 tpi ones? I've never seen any 1/2" tape that specifically called out the number of tracks. It's blank, after all. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 21 16:35:55 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:35:55 -0600 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would > >>> imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill > >>> (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to > >>> just use a microcontroller... > >> > >> Pertec shield for Arduino, anyone? :-) > >> > > Ok, THAT would be cool. :) > > Yeah it would! > > [...] > What's the write speed for an Arduino with an SD interface? It might > be more practical to build a "dumping appliance" that just spools the > tape onto an SD card that is read later. Yeah, I think this would be the best approach. Then you can use the connection back to the PC over USB to send status on the operation instead of the raw data. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 17:08:09 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Jon Elson wrote: >> > We are trying to recover some programs from 9-track backup tapes. >> > > I have a 9-track drive that interfaces to an ISA bus PC through a proprietary > card. It worked the last time I fired it up (about 10 years ago) and has > been in dry storage. > > Questions: > > - What is the bpi density on those tapes? This thing will not read the > highest density tapes. > > - Where are you located? > > Well, some are 1600 BPI, some are 6250. I have verified my drive is > working at both densities (before the SCSI adapter died.) I can read 1600 and, I believe 3200 (?). I know this drive does not handle 6250. > I am in St. Louis, MO. That would tend to create some logistic issues. I'm located in Burlington, VT. > I am working on an FPGA interface to the Pertec formatted interface, > it ought to work, but I don't know how much fooling around it will > take to get reliable data transfers. This list has the right people to help with the design and methodology :-) Steve -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 17:59:46 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:59:46 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > Well, some are 1600 BPI, some are 6250. ?I have verified my drive is > working at both densities (before the SCSI adapter died.) > > I am in St. Louis, MO. > Maybe a certain mail list host could help you out there.... :) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 18:43:11 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:43:11 -0000 Subject: UK HAM Radio and Computer Exhibition :- The 50th Norbreck Amateur Radio, Electronics and Computing Exhibition Message-ID: <35C1F41ED96D432EB57B70B1397D2F05@EMACHINE> The 50th Norbreck Amateur Radio, Electronics and Computing Exhibition will be held at the Norbreck Castle Hotel Exhibition Centre on Queens Promenade, North Shore, Blackpool, FY2 9AA. Doors will open at 10.30 and 10:15 for those with disabilities. Admission will be ?5 (under 14s free). http://www.narsa.org.uk/ As NARSA is an association of clubs any Computer Club is welcome to affiliate @ ?15 for which they get two tables at the exhibition, three exhibitors tickets and a share in any profits. A few trade tables still available, see http://www.narsa.org.uk/blackpool-rally/trade-bookings/ for details. (note if you get in quick you can still be squeezed into the stand list) It is mainly a radio show but there is always lots of computer gear on sale, much of it Vintage. Last year there were MAC Classics and BBC "B"s for sale. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 21 19:41:57 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:41:57 -0700 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D803152@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4F6A0D10.2040004@snowmoose.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D803152@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F6A7555.8020305@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > 16-bit or 18-bit format? Which is to say, 512-byte or 576-byte > sectors? ;-) Do ya feel lucky? :-) I didn't bother asking, because they're always 16-bit. I've looked briefly into the possibility of building a servo writer to reformat RA81 HDAs, so that 16-bit HDAs could be turned into 18-bit. It doesn't seem completely insurmountable, but it would be a fair bit of work. The other problem I'd have with RA81 drives is that even if I had an 18-bit HDA, I haven't yet been able to get an HSC50 to use it on. I'm told that no later model HSC supports 576-byte sectors. I've got two HSC70s, and would be happy to trade them for HSC50s. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 20:04:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 01:04:54 +0000 Subject: UK HAM Radio and Computer Exhibition :- The 50th Norbreck Amateur Radio, Electronics and Computing Exhibition In-Reply-To: <35C1F41ED96D432EB57B70B1397D2F05@EMACHINE> References: <35C1F41ED96D432EB57B70B1397D2F05@EMACHINE> Message-ID: On 21 March 2012 23:43, Dave wrote: > The 50th Norbreck Amateur Radio, Electronics and Computing Exhibition will > be held at the Norbreck Castle Hotel Exhibition Centre on Queens Promenade, > North Shore, Blackpool, FY2 9AA. Doors will open at 10.30 and 10:15 for > those with disabilities. Admission will be ?5 (under 14s free). > > http://www.narsa.org.uk/ > > As NARSA is an association of clubs any Computer Club is welcome to > affiliate @ ?15 for which they get two tables at the exhibition, three > exhibitors tickets and a share in any profits. A few trade tables still > available, see > > http://www.narsa.org.uk/blackpool-rally/trade-bookings/ > > for details. (note if you get in quick you can still be squeezed into the > stand list) > > It is mainly a radio show but there is always lots of computer gear on sale, > much of it Vintage. Last year there were MAC Classics and BBC "B"s for sale. > > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum You know that you didn't mention a date? :?) Sun 15th April, apparently, from the site... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 21 20:17:09 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:17:09 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6A7D95.8010700@pico-systems.com> > > Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would > imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill > (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to > just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 > internally, nothing fancier than that. > My understanding of the protocol is the drive sets the speed it spits out bytes, and that it can be up to 1 Mbyte/sec. There is no handshaking, the read data is just clocked out as the feels like. I don't see how a Z80 can keep up with that unless your formatter runs a lot slower. In theory, GCR data coming off the drive at 75 IPS can flow in bursts up to 480,000 byte/sec. (GCR actually records 6400 9-bit characters/inch, the 6250 refers to the equivalent data byte density after the ECC redundancy data is removed.) Your F880 is of course a slower drive and maybe 800/1600 only, so the data rate can be much lower. I have a product that uses a Xilinx FPGA connected through the PC parallel port in EPP mode, and have used it as a development board for several oddball projects, and so a good deal of code reuse makes this an easier path for me. The only extra job is I have to add a buffer SRAM to my board as the on-FPGA memory is not enough to hold the largest tape block permitted. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 21 20:48:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 01:48:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP8/e help finding parts In-Reply-To: from "THOM RESTIVO" at Mar 20, 12 02:50:51 pm Message-ID: > > I've got a pdp8/e that I'm getting ready to sell but first I need to replace > 3 of the toggles on the front. (not the actual switch, just the plastic.) > Does anyone know where I can get some of these? I have the 3 pieces that > need to replaced, it's just that the "nibs" are broken. If it's just the pivtos that are broken, you could file them off and then carefully drill through the lever (make darn sure the hole is correctly aligned). Then put a metal rod in as a pivot. Of coruse it's easier to fit replacement parts _if you can get them_, but this repair should be stronger than the original. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 21 21:03:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 02:03:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: <4F692291.1070404@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 20, 12 08:36:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/19/2012 04:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > IIRC there are 2 pins at the sides, it's the top and bottm edges of those > > that matter. Each edge can eiterh be straight out cut in a bit, they > > operate 4 contacts i nthe lamphoder. One always operates when the cap is > > fitted (this inidcates a cap _is_ fitted, removign the cap disables the > > drive). the other 3 edges encode a 3 bit (yes, I do mean _3_ binary > > number). In the RL's, only the bottom 2 bits are used, the RK06/RK07 use > > all 3 bits (and ahve caps numbered from 0-7), I think some CDC drives > > used a simlar system, but the cape was opaque and didn't also act as the > > 'ready' lamp. > > I've seen this on many CDC drives. It's a small white plug, perhaps > 1/4 the size of the DEC RL0[12]/RK07 unit select plug or a bit larger. > Its plug end is shaped like a '+', and that's cut out in various ways to > actuate the contacts in the socket. No,m the one I was thinking of, and I am pretty sure it was on a CDC unit -- perhaps a Phoenix drive -- has the same size as an RL unit select cap. But it was opaque black plastic and obviosuly didn't have a lamp behind it. The coding was done in the same wway wit hthe edges of the 2 sid tabes. Whether it was the same code I don't know. -tony From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 21:30:02 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:30:02 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F69D652.18415.E8BF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F69D652.18415.E8BF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: yea pretty much i dunno much about tape first time be dealing with one. On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Mar 2012 at 14:10, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > wheres one find a source of the 7 track tapes? i aquired a rack with > > some rk05's and a t6b40-9-45 u2 i think is a 7 track drive from the > > manual i found on bit savers describing t6x40 also gotta source a > > controllor and a cable for it got a pdp8a and a heathkit h11 > > http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/joncohen1/dec_boards127.jpg > > Do you mean blank media? Isn't that similar to asking for a 100 tpi > 5.25" floppy when all you have are 96 and 48 tpi ones? > > I've never seen any 1/2" tape that specifically called out the number > of tracks. It's blank, after all. > > --Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 00:03:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:03:37 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> References: , <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com>, <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F6A5039.26986.1EABAB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2012 at 12:12, David Riley wrote: > Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would > imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill > (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to > just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 > internally, nothing fancier than that. I believe the 990 uses 2 Z8002 CPUs and the 995 uses a Z8002 + 80C186, so definitely more horsepower is useful. Still, instead of a plain old Arduino, why not use a Digilent Uno32? Costs little more than a Arduino, but runs at 80MHz, 32-bit words and lots more I/O (most of it is 5V tolerant). Digitlent has done a great job of taking the C IDE and making appear very nearly identical to the 8-bit AVR based one. Move up to a standalone PIC32 chip and you get DMA channels and up to 128K of on-chip RAM. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 18:56:01 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:56:01 -0400 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics Message-ID: > From:?Richard > Date:?Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:46:57 -0600 > Subject:?Re: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics > > In article , > ? ?Michael Thompson writes: > >> >> I didn't see any Calcomp System 25 Workstations in your collection. >> >> The RICM has LOTS of them. > >> > From: Richard >> > I wasn't aware of these systems. [...] >> > This seems to be a workstation introduced in 1984. ?What kind of >> > graphics environment did it have? ?1984 is too early for X11 and also >> > I think too early for X10. >> >> The page for the Calcomps is here: >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/calcomp-system-25 >> >> The RICM has LOTs of documentation on the systems, but have not >> powered one on yet. > > It seems the graphics was on a dedicated display peripheral and a text > screen was used for input and program interaction. > > Are you involved with the RICM? ?I'd be interested to know what > happens to these systems. I am a volunteer at the RICM. The Calcomp systems are not in any danger of being scraped. Maybe you should come for a visit and get some of them running? -- Michael Thompson From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Mar 21 19:06:33 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:06:33 -0400 Subject: PDP8/e help finding parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120322000633.GA27282@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 02:50:51PM -0400, THOM RESTIVO wrote: > I've got a pdp8/e that I'm getting ready to sell but first I need to replace > 3 of the toggles on the front. (not the actual switch, just the plastic.) > Does anyone know where I can get some of these? I have the 3 pieces that > need to replaced, it's just that the "nibs" are broken. > Here is how I fixed my straight 8 handles. The handles varied in color some between matchines so repairing they may look better. http://www.pdp8online.com/straight8/front_panel_restore.shtml Ligher ones avaiable here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-8-e-8-f-m-Lighter-Orange-Switch-Handle-Ea-/320847412017?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab3fefb31 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 02:26:58 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:26:58 +0000 Subject: UK HAM Radio and Computer Exhibition :- The 50th Norbreck Amateur Radio, Electronics and Computing Exhibition In-Reply-To: References: <35C1F41ED96D432EB57B70B1397D2F05@EMACHINE> Message-ID: Thanks Liam, thats what happens when you post late at night. On 22 Mar 2012 01:08, "Liam Proven" wrote: On 21 March 2012 23:43, Dave wrote: > The 50th Norbreck Amateur Radio, Electr... You know that you didn't mention a date? :?) Sun 15th April, apparently, from the site... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 22 03:06:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 04:06:37 -0400 Subject: still seeking RL01/02 unit select plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6ADD8D.3060407@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2012 10:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> IIRC there are 2 pins at the sides, it's the top and bottm edges of those >>> that matter. Each edge can eiterh be straight out cut in a bit, they >>> operate 4 contacts i nthe lamphoder. One always operates when the cap is >>> fitted (this inidcates a cap _is_ fitted, removign the cap disables the >>> drive). the other 3 edges encode a 3 bit (yes, I do mean _3_ binary >>> number). In the RL's, only the bottom 2 bits are used, the RK06/RK07 use >>> all 3 bits (and ahve caps numbered from 0-7), I think some CDC drives >>> used a simlar system, but the cape was opaque and didn't also act as the >>> 'ready' lamp. >> >> I've seen this on many CDC drives. It's a small white plug, perhaps >> 1/4 the size of the DEC RL0[12]/RK07 unit select plug or a bit larger. >> Its plug end is shaped like a '+', and that's cut out in various ways to >> actuate the contacts in the socket. > > No,m the one I was thinking of, and I am pretty sure it was on a CDC unit > -- perhaps a Phoenix drive -- has the same size as an RL unit select cap. > But it was opaque black plastic and obviosuly didn't have a lamp behind > it. The coding was done in the same wway wit hthe edges of the 2 sid > tabes. Whether it was the same code I don't know. Oh! Yes, that's totally different. I don't think I've ever seen that one, at least not that I recall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 22 03:14:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 04:14:54 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69D652.18415.E8BF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2012 10:30 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea pretty much i dunno much about tape first time be dealing with one. No worries...Tape like this is generally pretty simple to deal with; we'll help you out. What make/model drive is it? Can you get some pics of the back, especially the cabling? There are two most common types of tape interfaces, three-connector ("unformatted") and two-connector ("formatted") Pertec interfaces. It's likely your drive has one of those two types. Next...9-track drives' recording density is specified in "BPI", or Bits Per Inch. Common densities are 800, 1600, and 6250BPI. Also seen from time to time is 3200BPI, but that's much less common. There are three main sizes of reels; 600', 1200' and 2400'. I've seen farm more 600' and 2400' than 1200', but you'll see all three floating around. There may be other sizes but they're not very common. There are three main types of tape handling mechanisms. Going from least desirable to most desirable, and also the easiest to the hardest to maintain, they are tension arm, air bearing, and vacuum column. Tension arm uses one or two long (4-8") arms with a roller on one end and a pivot on the other, and it moves back and forth to essentially "hold" a length of tape off the reel. Air bearing mechanisms have smooth curved surfaces with lots of little holes punched in them that are pressurized from behind by a blower. The tape rarely if ever touches the surfaces of these curved pieces, reducing friction (and therefore tape wear) considerably. Vacuum column drives are more complex; they use a vacuum pump and (usually) two vertical columns that hold a dangling "loop" of tape and have a servomechanism to rotate the reels just the right amounts to keep the loop position constant, while a roller moves the tape across the head to the desired position. There's very little friction in this type of system. They can be, however, pretty tough to maintain. Let's find out what you've got first. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From microcode at zoho.com Thu Mar 22 03:36:19 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:36:19 +0000 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> References: <4F69D652.18415.E8BF0@cclist.sydex.com> <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1418248471-1332405362-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-919768252-@b3.c1.bise3.blackberry> Yeah which is why they always taught the FEs to stuff their tie down their shirt when servicing the old 3420s ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 04:14:54 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Pertec interface tape drive On 03/21/2012 10:30 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea pretty much i dunno much about tape first time be dealing with one. No worries...Tape like this is generally pretty simple to deal with; we'll help you out. What make/model drive is it? Can you get some pics of the back, especially the cabling? There are two most common types of tape interfaces, three-connector ("unformatted") and two-connector ("formatted") Pertec interfaces. It's likely your drive has one of those two types. Next...9-track drives' recording density is specified in "BPI", or Bits Per Inch. Common densities are 800, 1600, and 6250BPI. Also seen from time to time is 3200BPI, but that's much less common. There are three main sizes of reels; 600', 1200' and 2400'. I've seen farm more 600' and 2400' than 1200', but you'll see all three floating around. There may be other sizes but they're not very common. There are three main types of tape handling mechanisms. Going from least desirable to most desirable, and also the easiest to the hardest to maintain, they are tension arm, air bearing, and vacuum column. Tension arm uses one or two long (4-8") arms with a roller on one end and a pivot on the other, and it moves back and forth to essentially "hold" a length of tape off the reel. Air bearing mechanisms have smooth curved surfaces with lots of little holes punched in them that are pressurized from behind by a blower. The tape rarely if ever touches the surfaces of these curved pieces, reducing friction (and therefore tape wear) considerably. Vacuum column drives are more complex; they use a vacuum pump and (usually) two vertical columns that hold a dangling "loop" of tape and have a servomechanism to rotate the reels just the right amounts to keep the loop position constant, while a roller moves the tape across the head to the desired position. There's very little friction in this type of system. They can be, however, pretty tough to maintain. Let's find out what you've got first. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 22 04:38:28 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:38:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wheres one find a source of the 7 track tapes? i aquired a rack with some > rk05's and a t6b40-9-45 u2 i think is a 7 track drive from the manual i ^^^^ Wouldn't that suggest 9 track, 45 ips? Just a guess... Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 07:02:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:02:18 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6A5039.26986.1EABAB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com>, <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> <4F6A5039.26986.1EABAB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Mar 2012 at 12:12, David Riley wrote: > >> Pertec is a pretty simple interface with handshake lines. I would >> imagine you shouldn't have much trouble. An FPGA may be overkill >> (certainly harder to work with 5v); you may find it even easier to >> just use a microcontroller. My Cipher F880 runs on just a Z80 >> internally, nothing fancier than that. > > I believe the 990 uses 2 Z8002 CPUs and the 995 uses a Z8002 + > 80C186, so definitely more horsepower is useful. Well, the 880 is also a pretty basic drive. :-) Gets the job done, and it was cheap for me to acquire, so... yeah. The way I see it, though, the Pertec interface is practically made for a 6522 or 8255 or any chip that supports hardware data strobes. You can almost emulate that functionality as interrupts with most modern micros, and some of them will even allow you to use them as DMA strobes (though I suspect you'd have to throw it through a one- shot first). > Move up to a standalone PIC32 chip and you get DMA channels and up to > 128K of on-chip RAM. A lot of the ARM Cortex-M[3|4] chips are along the same lines. You might actually check out ST's STM32F4DISCOVERY board, which could be had for free at one point (I think it's about $15 right now). It has a pretty decent Cortex-M4 on it, has most of the I/O broken out onto pin headers, and has a built-in USB programmer (which has support in OpenOCD and also has connections to act as a standalone SWD tool). It's kind of a bummer I haven't seen any Arduino stuff using the XMEGA chips yet; that line certainly brings the AVR into the current decade. DMA, properly modularized I/O, etc. Open-source programming tools for it are still a little flaky, though. - Dave From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Thu Mar 22 08:43:21 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:43:21 +0200 Subject: mockumentary? Message-ID: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Hi. Is there such thing as mockumentary? "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or non-existent software written for fun. From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 09:16:21 2012 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:16:21 -0500 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > Hi. > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > non-existent software written for fun. sure. Anyone remember the Rutles? Kelly From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Mar 22 09:31:04 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:31:04 +0000 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Kelly Fergason wrote: > > > sure. ?Anyone remember the Rutles? > > Kelly This is Spinal Tap. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 22 09:38:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:38:23 -0700 Subject: DEC Rainbow spotted in RetroBites TV clip Message-ID: <4F6B395F.9090103@brouhaha.com> Or is it a Pro or DECmate? In any case, easily overlooked due to the antics of Penn & Teller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd8eOVUIogw From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Thu Mar 22 09:54:19 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:54:19 +0200 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> On 22.03.2012 16:16, Kelly Fergason wrote: >> It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or >> non-existent software written for fun. > > > sure. Anyone remember the Rutles? No, I meant related to non-existent computer hardware/software. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 10:07:13 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> Message-ID: <1332428833.15380.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/22/12, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > >> It could be a fake manual for non-existent > computer/computer device or > >> non-existent software written for fun. > > > > No, I meant related to non-existent computer > hardware/software. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datamation/HowToMaintainAKludge_Jun62.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datamation/TheMasterPlanForKludgeSoftware_Jul62.pdf -Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 10:43:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:43:09 -0400 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> Message-ID: <901738EA-2EEA-4D14-A9F9-4D0276859C54@gmail.com> On Mar 22, 2012, at 10:54 AM, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > On 22.03.2012 16:16, Kelly Fergason wrote: >>> It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or >>> non-existent software written for fun. >> >> >> sure. Anyone remember the Rutles? > > No, I meant related to non-existent computer hardware/software. Not exactly hardware, but related: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/physics.html - Dave From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 22 10:44:02 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:44:02 +0100 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> Message-ID: <20120322154402.GA20814@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 04:54:19PM +0200, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > No, I meant related to non-existent computer hardware/software. Here is a good laugh from "Look Around You": The Bournemouths computer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCEm96kA5hY Computer Games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TgM0pCDvI I think it has been linked here before. Cheers, Pontus. From mwichary at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 10:48:05 2012 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:48:05 -0700 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: Steve Wozniak?s brochure for Zaltair comes to mind. On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Dennis Yurichev < dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info> wrote: > Hi. > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > non-existent software written for fun. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 11:02:15 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:02:15 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> References: <4F69D652.18415.E8BF0@cclist.sydex.com> <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: this is it here made some installment payments so havent received the whole lot yet. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/160748462238?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 i was just after the rk05's and the rack but the tape drive has me curious On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/21/2012 10:30 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> yea pretty much i dunno much about tape first time be dealing with one. >> > > No worries...Tape like this is generally pretty simple to deal with; > we'll help you out. What make/model drive is it? Can you get some pics of > the back, especially the cabling? There are two most common types of tape > interfaces, three-connector ("unformatted") and two-connector ("formatted") > Pertec interfaces. It's likely your drive has one of those two types. > > Next...9-track drives' recording density is specified in "BPI", or Bits > Per Inch. Common densities are 800, 1600, and 6250BPI. Also seen from > time to time is 3200BPI, but that's much less common. > > There are three main sizes of reels; 600', 1200' and 2400'. I've seen > farm more 600' and 2400' than 1200', but you'll see all three floating > around. There may be other sizes but they're not very common. > > There are three main types of tape handling mechanisms. Going from least > desirable to most desirable, and also the easiest to the hardest to > maintain, they are tension arm, air bearing, and vacuum column. Tension arm > uses one or two long (4-8") arms with a roller on one end and a pivot on > the other, and it moves back and forth to essentially "hold" a length of > tape off the reel. Air bearing mechanisms have smooth curved surfaces with > lots of little holes punched in them that are pressurized from behind by a > blower. The tape rarely if ever touches the surfaces of these curved > pieces, reducing friction (and therefore tape wear) considerably. Vacuum > column drives are more complex; they use a vacuum pump and (usually) two > vertical columns that hold a dangling "loop" of tape and have a > servomechanism to rotate the reels just the right amounts to keep the loop > position constant, while a roller moves the tape across the head to the > desired position. There's very little friction in this type of system. > They can be, however, pretty tough to maintain. > > Let's find out what you've got first. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From andrew at futurestack.com Thu Mar 22 11:10:03 2012 From: andrew at futurestack.com (futurestack) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:10:03 -0400 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: <7A7951F7-DD6A-49C1-A2AA-EB63A1704CDF@futurestack.com> Not really in film format... http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies/ On Mar 22, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > Hi. > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > non-existent software written for fun. From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 11:13:10 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: <1332432790.86257.YahooMailClassic@web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> The one that comes to mind is http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lookaroundyou/ the BBC Look Around You show had a computer episode. It's made to look like those "old" mostly boring type of educational films. Here's the one on computer games http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TgM0pCDvI it's pretty bad but did crack me up a bit. The only other highly popular thing I know that tricked a lot of non-military folks was the picture http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/computer.asp of a 2004 home computer from 1954. That was a photoshop competition I think though and is really the interface to an old submarine. - John From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 22 11:17:35 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:17:35 -0600 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6A5039.26986.1EABAB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com>, <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> <4F6A5039.26986.1EABAB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F6A5039.26986.1EABAB5 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Still, instead of a plain old Arduino, why not use a Digilent Uno32? What I was thinking was that the shield did all the heavy lifting and the Arduino was just orchestrating the high level operations. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 11:18:57 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <20120322154402.GA20814@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1332433137.4100.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dernit, ya beat me to it ;-) --- On Thu, 3/22/12, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Here is a good laugh from "Look Around You": > > The Bournemouths computer: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCEm96kA5hY > > Computer Games: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TgM0pCDvI From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 22 11:24:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:24:15 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > > From: Richard > > > > Are you involved with the RICM? I'd be interested to know what > > happens to these systems. > > I am a volunteer at the RICM. The Calcomp systems are not in any > danger of being scraped. heh heh, well I didn't expect you'd scrap them :). I just meant it would be nice to hear of any progress made on getting them functioning. > Maybe you should come for a visit and get some of them running? It's a long trip for me -- I'm in Salt Lake City. However, I'm likely to be out on the east coast this summer and a side trip up to RICM would be a good visit. I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to start on these Calcomp System 25s in order to get them operational, however. Do you have documentation on them? User manuals? Service manuals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 22 11:51:14 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:51:14 -0500 Subject: DEC Rainbow spotted in RetroBites TV clip In-Reply-To: <4F6B395F.9090103@brouhaha.com> References: <4F6B395F.9090103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201203221700.q2MH0Wc7034999@billy.ezwind.net> At 09:38 AM 3/22/2012, Eric Smith wrote: >Or is it a Pro or DECmate? In any case, easily overlooked due to the antics of Penn & Teller: Behind the interviewer? 3:15 best view? Grey blanking plate on the left, but black hard drive plate on the right? No floppies? Maybe a prop 300/350. - John From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Mar 22 12:54:48 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:54:48 +0000 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <1332433137.4100.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/22/12 9:18 AM, "Sam Onella" wrote: >Dernit, ya beat me to it ;-) > >--- On Thu, 3/22/12, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> From: Pontus Pihlgren >> Here is a good laugh from "Look Around You": >> >> The Bournemouths computer: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCEm96kA5hY >> >> Computer Games: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TgM0pCDvI > > Not computers, but they do it up right: http://www.utilikilts.com/customer/mockumercials/ (I'm a customer.) -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 13:04:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:04:38 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> References: , , <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F6B0746.19809.4A13ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2012 at 4:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > Next...9-track drives' recording density is specified in "BPI", or > Bits Per Inch. Common densities are 800, 1600, and 6250BPI. Also > seen from time to time is 3200BPI, but that's much less common. Also specified in "FCI" (flux changes per inch). More accurate really, particularly when talking about 6250 GCR. Tapes can come in both parity flavors, although odd parity is used overwhelmingly. I recall the issues with 7 track even parity trying to deal with BCD "00". (the drive can't tell the difference between it and a blank tape). Most tape carries both vertical (calculated with the bits in a single character) and longitudinal (calculated across an entire tape block, but by bit position (i.e. all the bit 0, then all the bit 1, etc.). This has the nice property that single-bit errors can be corrected many times. > There are three main sizes of reels; 600', 1200' and 2400'. I've > seen farm more 600' and 2400' than 1200', but you'll see all three > floating around. There may be other sizes but they're not very > common. There were some very small reels (the limting factor being the hub diameter). Remember that you can create multiple virtual tapes by adding extra BOT markers along a tape. > There are three main types of tape handling mechanisms. Going from > least desirable to most desirable, and also the easiest to the hardest > to maintain, they are tension arm, air bearing, and vacuum column. I'd group that differently. There are three types of tape movement (pinch roller (e.g. IBM 729), vacuum/pressure capstan (e.g. CDC 607 and reel motor (e.g. just about any streamer). There are two sorts of buffering (to accomodate start-stop inertia), mechanical spring (i.e. lever, zigzag differential arms) and vacuum column (any large tape drive). Vacuum-colum drives quite successfully manage coming to a full stop in the IRG; mechanical buffer, mostly used on streamers, not so much--usually involves backing up and taking a running start after a stop. Also, "no ring no write", unless you can slip a punch card behind the mounted reel and trip the write-enable sensor on the old manual- threading drives. We used to play ring-toss with the rings on the light fixtures and exposed plumbing on what must have been a 15' machine-room ceiling. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 13:21:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:21:35 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6A7D95.8010700@pico-systems.com> References: , <4F6A7D95.8010700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F6B0B3F.25069.599BA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Mar 2012 at 20:17, Jon Elson wrote: > I have a product that uses a Xilinx FPGA connected through > the PC parallel port in EPP mode, and have used it as a development > board for several oddball projects, and so a good deal of code reuse > makes this an easier path for me. The only extra job is I have to add > a buffer SRAM to my board as the on-FPGA memory is not enough to hold > the largest tape block permitted. My Chi/Computer Logics ISA controller has 256K of memory organized as a ring buffer with 16-bit DMA handling the transfer to CPU-local memory. It's pretty successful in keeping up with medium-fast (75 ips) streamers, but I suspect that it would fall down on 150 ips drives. My first attempt at a DIY Pertec used a PCI data aquisition card with three 8255s on it. Only moderately successful using a Fuji X2444--a controller-local buffer is very desirable. If you happen to have a well-stocked junkbox with some FIFOs in it, that would certainly help. Long block tapes have been an anathema for a long time. A block can theoretically be as long as an entire reel of tape, which means that if there is lost data during transfer (either because of the CPU to controller link or the inability of the CPU program to accept data fast enough), you have to backspace to the IRG and start again. I spent a lot of frustrating time working with CDCs 1LT driver on half- reel long blocks. Short blocks, on the other hand, were fun--you could make music with the drive, the pitch depending on the block size. --Chuck From microcode at zoho.com Thu Mar 22 13:42:50 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:42:50 +0000 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6B0746.19809.4A13ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4F6ADF7E.6040109@neurotica.com> <4F6B0746.19809.4A13ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <16884219-1332441753-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-579812669-@b3.c1.bise3.blackberry> Oh! I thought FCI meant "flux capacitor index" -----Original Message----- From: "Chuck Guzis" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:04:38 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Pertec interface tape drive On 22 Mar 2012 at 4:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > Next...9-track drives' recording density is specified in "BPI", or > Bits Per Inch. Common densities are 800, 1600, and 6250BPI. Also > seen from time to time is 3200BPI, but that's much less common. Also specified in "FCI" (flux changes per inch). More accurate really, particularly when talking about 6250 GCR. Tapes can come in both parity flavors, although odd parity is used overwhelmingly. I recall the issues with 7 track even parity trying to deal with BCD "00". (the drive can't tell the difference between it and a blank tape). Most tape carries both vertical (calculated with the bits in a single character) and longitudinal (calculated across an entire tape block, but by bit position (i.e. all the bit 0, then all the bit 1, etc.). This has the nice property that single-bit errors can be corrected many times. > There are three main sizes of reels; 600', 1200' and 2400'. I've > seen farm more 600' and 2400' than 1200', but you'll see all three > floating around. There may be other sizes but they're not very > common. There were some very small reels (the limting factor being the hub diameter). Remember that you can create multiple virtual tapes by adding extra BOT markers along a tape. > There are three main types of tape handling mechanisms. Going from > least desirable to most desirable, and also the easiest to the hardest > to maintain, they are tension arm, air bearing, and vacuum column. I'd group that differently. There are three types of tape movement (pinch roller (e.g. IBM 729), vacuum/pressure capstan (e.g. CDC 607 and reel motor (e.g. just about any streamer). There are two sorts of buffering (to accomodate start-stop inertia), mechanical spring (i.e. lever, zigzag differential arms) and vacuum column (any large tape drive). Vacuum-colum drives quite successfully manage coming to a full stop in the IRG; mechanical buffer, mostly used on streamers, not so much--usually involves backing up and taking a running start after a stop. Also, "no ring no write", unless you can slip a punch card behind the mounted reel and trip the write-enable sensor on the old manual- threading drives. We used to play ring-toss with the rings on the light fixtures and exposed plumbing on what must have been a 15' machine-room ceiling. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 14:05:03 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: <4F6B0B3F.25069.599BA2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F6A7D95.8010700@pico-systems.com> <4F6B0B3F.25069.599BA2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Mar 2012 at 20:17, Jon Elson wrote: > >> I have a product that uses a Xilinx FPGA connected through >> the PC parallel port in EPP mode, and have used it as a development >> board for several oddball projects, and so a good deal of code reuse >> makes this an easier path for me. The only extra job is I have to add >> a buffer SRAM to my board as the on-FPGA memory is not enough to hold >> the largest tape block permitted. > > My Chi/Computer Logics ISA controller has 256K of memory organized as > a ring buffer with 16-bit DMA handling the transfer to CPU-local > memory. It's pretty successful in keeping up with medium-fast (75 > ips) streamers, but I suspect that it would fall down on 150 ips > drives. I think that's the same unit I have, along with a Qualstar 1052 transport. It came with Qualstar software, but no particular technical information on the interface card as I recall. -- From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 22 14:34:35 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:34:35 -0700 Subject: Complete "Amateur Computer Society" Newsletter Available Online Message-ID: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> The Amateur Computer Society (ACS) was founded by Stephen B. Gray in May, 1966. The ACS was for those who "are building or operating a homemade computer from their home". An interesting requirement was that the computer had to at least perform "automatic multiplication and division". In practice, membership was open to anyone who had a "serious" digital computer operating from their home. In my case that included a RPC-4000 ;-) Since I had been a member of the ACS, I had searched everywhere online for the complete set of ACS Newsletters - and found only isolated copies of individual newsletters. I did find that Stephen Gray had donated his original complete set to the Babbage Institute. Subsequently, I did a detailed search of the Computer History Museum's (CHM) archives via their Collections Department. I was excited to find that the CHM also had a complete set of the ACS Newsletter. I requested that they scan and make a PDF copy (including OCR) of same - and for a modest scanning fee they did so. It is now available to the world (free) via CHM's website: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102654910 Go to the bottom of the page where there is a link to the PDF. For those who would like to know the earliest history of "home computers", I think you'll find it a fascinating read... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 22 14:36:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:36:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> from "Dennis Yurichev" at Mar 22, 12 03:43:21 pm Message-ID: > > Hi. > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > non-existent software written for fun. The Australian HP museum site has a spoof description of a (ficticious) HP9855 machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 22 14:38:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:38:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> from "Dennis Yurichev" at Mar 22, 12 04:54:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 22.03.2012 16:16, Kelly Fergason wrote: > >> It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > >> non-existent software written for fun. > > > > > > sure. Anyone remember the Rutles? > > No, I meant related to non-existent computer hardware/software. > How about the Signetics Write-Only-Memory data sheet? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 22 15:19:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120322130657.P49367@shell.lmi.net> In the bookcase behind my desk, I have a copy of "Winblows 98" next to my copy of "Microsoft Bob" and somewhere in this office is a copy of a 12 year old version of Microsoft Flight Simulator (the one with the plane dodging between the twin towers) Does it have to DELIBERATELY be a parody? From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 22 16:00:51 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <20120322130657.P49367@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1332450051.93570.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> True, I was thinking strictly video. There are humorous RFCs out there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day_Request_for_Comments has a listing of some of them. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3514 regarding the evil bit was humorous. I'm just not sure what usefulness would be out there for the money to be spent on fake documentaries. There was also the (Intel?) Lantopolis? or some such promo vcd. Not really mocking technology or a documentary though but a fake animated story about some cheesy computer part named characters and a detective. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 16:42:03 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:42:03 -0500 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: <4f6b9e51.c3c1320a.65af.ffffdf3d@mx.google.com> Spinal Tap? At 09:16 AM 3/22/2012, you wrote: >On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Dennis Yurichev > wrote: > > Hi. > > > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > > non-existent software written for fun. > > >sure. Anyone remember the Rutles? > >Kelly 726 . [Temper] Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when called upon to act according with the dictates of reason. --Oscar Wilde NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 16:53:38 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:53:38 -0700 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: <4F6A0D10.2040004@snowmoose.com> References: <4F6A0D10.2040004@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Alan Perry wrote: > > I have a couple of RA81s that were working when I got them 13 years ago (but > haven't been powered on since). > > Located in the Seattle area. > Are you offering those up in return for something? I have an RA82 here in the Seattle area that I have never been able to get to spin up or do anything at all. I haven't been able to get anything out of the diagnostic port. I have found the RA81 service manual online, but not the RA82 service manual. It would be interesting to get it working just to see it working. -Glen From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 22 19:19:17 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:19:17 -0500 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: <20120323001917.GB3869@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/22/2012 at 07:36PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > > non-existent software written for fun. > > The Australian HP museum site has a spoof description of a (ficticious) > HP9855 machine. This classic comes to mind, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w and then there was a follow on design, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fjcJp_Nwvk&feature=related -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 22 19:33:03 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:33:03 -0500 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <20120323001917.GB3869@n0jcf.net> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> <20120323001917.GB3869@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120323003303.GC3869@n0jcf.net> And this one too, http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/231175/1954-popular-mechanics-home-computer -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 19:55:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:55:07 -0700 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <20120323001917.GB3869@n0jcf.net> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info>, , <20120323001917.GB3869@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4F6B677B.16049.1C1E3B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2012 at 19:19, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (03/22/2012 at 07:36PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > > > > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), > > > is a type of film or television show in which fictitious events > > > are presented in documentary format. Personally, I thought this might fall under that heading: http://www.pbs.org/programs/steve-jobs-one-last-thing/ --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Thu Mar 22 19:57:36 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:57:36 -0500 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6BCA80.4040201@cimmeri.com> I've a Nova 2, a Nova 1200, and D461 terminal with keyboard I'd like to trade off to any DG collectors. Working condition unknown -- I've not attempted to power them on (which would be foolish without going through them first). Restorable condition (I could restore them, anyway). The terminal is nice and fairly clean -- not a disgusting P.O.S. like I often see. The two chassis units appear to be rackmount style. I don't know anything about these machines, so don't know how complete or incomplete they are, but they each have a front panel and boards in the cage. I'm hazarding a guess they're likely best considered as parts machines. Feel free to PM me with any ?'s since I'm not sure what data is useful to provide. Can be picked up either from Washington, D.C. (northern tip), or near Frederick, MD. LOOKING FOR: drives: - ST-406; ST-412; ST-419 - CDC-9415* - CMI CM-5412 - IMI 5012H - MAXSTOR XT-2085 - Micropolis 1324A - Priam V170 or V185 other hardware: - PDP-11/34 half-height chassis complete with PSU -- do not need any logic boards. - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. software: - Coherent - Venix with docs for DEC Pro 350. Thanks, John Singleton From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 22 20:21:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:21:09 -0600 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: <4F6BCA80.4040201@cimmeri.com> References: <4F6BCA80.4040201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: In article <4F6BCA80.4040201 at cimmeri.com>, "js at cimmeri.com" writes: > LOOKING FOR: > > other hardware: > - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 20:51:07 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 01:51:07 +0000 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <20120322154402.GA20814@Update.UU.SE> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> <4F6B3D1B.60609@conus.info> <20120322154402.GA20814@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 22 March 2012 15:44, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 04:54:19PM +0200, Dennis Yurichev wrote: >> No, I meant related to non-existent computer hardware/software. > > Here is a good laugh from "Look Around You": > > The Bournemouths computer: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCEm96kA5hY > > Computer Games: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TgM0pCDvI > > I think it has been linked here before. That is *wonderful* - thanks! I actually felt a horrible sense of nostalgia for those really terrible very-early-1980s Sinclair games designed by a pre-teen in his bedroom, standard Sinclair font and home-drawn cover-art and all... *Shudder* -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 22 20:59:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:59:02 -0700 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: References: , <4F6BCA80.4040201@cimmeri.com>, Message-ID: <4F6B7676.24628.1FC6A1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Mar 2012 at 19:21, Richard wrote: > I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. Aw, sure there is. Beam power tetrode with a 300 MA 25V heater. Used extensively in unit record gear, as well some early computers as a relay driver. Just sayin' --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 21:03:29 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:03:29 -0700 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: References: <4F6BCA80.4040201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2012 6:24 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > other hardware: > > - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. > > I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. > -- Or VR-201? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Mar 22 22:00:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:00:19 -0600 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: References: <4F6BCA80.4040201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > On Mar 22, 2012 6:24 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > > > other hardware: > > > - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. > > > > I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. > > Or VR-201? That also works. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alex at cheltscum.co.uk Thu Mar 22 09:33:02 2012 From: alex at cheltscum.co.uk (Alex Melt) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:33:02 +0000 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: Sure, both series of Look Around You fit the description well. On 22 Mar 2012, at 13:43, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > Hi. > > Is there such thing as mockumentary? > > "A mockumentary (a portmanteau of the words mock and documentary), is a > type of film or television show in which fictitious events are presented > in documentary format. These productions are often used to analyze or > comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or > to parody the documentary form itself.[1] They may be either comedic or > dramatic in form, although comedic mockumentaries are more common. A > dramatic mockumentary (sometimes referred to as docufiction) should not > be confused with docudrama, a fictional genre in which dramatic > techniques are combined with documentary elements to depict real events." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockumentary > > It could be a fake manual for non-existent computer/computer device or > non-existent software written for fun. From alkopop79 at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 10:20:04 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:20:04 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The display only updates after the input button is pressed if in RESET mode (RUN down, LOAD down). If RUN down, LOAD up, can't see the display changing. On 18 March 2012 00:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Idle state for RAM-R/W (20) should HIGH (read). > I expect idle state for RAM-OD (18) is also HIGH (RAM outputs disabled). > > I would suggest before trying to run a program you confirm that you are > able to load and examine memory. > > One of the subtle points here is that when loading/examining/running you > generally need to go 'through' the RESET state with the mode switches to > reset the internal address pointer to zero. > > Here's a load/examine test sequence: > > Load: > L1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 > address pointer=0) > L2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for WRITE/LOAD (*MP down) > L3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) > L4 - set data switches to 0001 0000, press STEP/*INPUT (load $10 into > mem-0) > L5 - set data switches to 0001 0001, press STEP/*INPUT (load $11 into > mem-1) > L6 - set data switches to 0001 0010, press STEP/*INPUT (load $12 into > mem-2) > > Examine: > E1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 > address pointer=0) > E2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for READ/EXAMINE (*MP up) > E3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) > E4 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0000 ($10) > E5 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0001 ($11) > E6 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0010 ($12) > > If you miss step L1, you won't know where you are actually loading into > memory. If you miss step E1, the examine steps (E4,E5,E6) will display > addresses 3,4,5 rather than displaying addresses 0,1,2. The same issue > applies when running a program, you normally have to reset state with the > mode switches so the program starts running at 0. > > I don't like the switch labels of the original Elf, they can be > misleading, but that's history. I relabelled/disambiguated them in my > schematic and unit, the * labels above are the original switch labels, > others are mine. > > > > On 2012 Mar 17, at 8:48 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display after I >> press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit work fine. >> However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and pressed INPUT >> and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. It didn't >> happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control >> circuit >> seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/write >> enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic state in >> the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be entered to >> the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of pins 18 and >> 20 >> (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when pressing >> the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. >> >> >> On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting >>> anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone >>> mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I assume i >>> just have to rewire the thing. >>> >>> On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: >>> >>> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 and >>>> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I spent a >>>> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to simulate >>>> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. But >>>> >>>> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing works. I >>>> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN pin >>>> is >>>> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can think >>>> of >>>> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the diodes >>>> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is >>>> that I >>>> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for some >>>> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll >>>> check >>>> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the HP >>>> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even >>>> though >>>> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins >>>> low. I >>>> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at >>>> least >>>> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. It's >>>> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and indispensable >>>> help! >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the >>>>> 4013 >>>>> reset (10). >>>>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and >>>>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the load >>>>> mode switch). >>>>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high as >>>>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already >>>>> tested >>>>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > > From alkopop79 at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 15:57:16 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:57:16 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Again, as opposed to what I expected the display changes only if in RESET mode (both run and load low). When in LOAD mode (LOAD up, RUN down) nothing seems to happen before/after flipping data switches and pushing the input button. Isn't it supposed to be the other way? On 22 March 2012 15:20, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > The display only updates after the input button is pressed if in RESET > mode (RUN down, LOAD down). If RUN down, LOAD up, can't see the display > changing. > > On 18 March 2012 00:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Idle state for RAM-R/W (20) should HIGH (read). >> I expect idle state for RAM-OD (18) is also HIGH (RAM outputs disabled). >> >> I would suggest before trying to run a program you confirm that you are >> able to load and examine memory. >> >> One of the subtle points here is that when loading/examining/running you >> generally need to go 'through' the RESET state with the mode switches to >> reset the internal address pointer to zero. >> >> Here's a load/examine test sequence: >> >> Load: >> L1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 >> address pointer=0) >> L2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for WRITE/LOAD (*MP down) >> L3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) >> L4 - set data switches to 0001 0000, press STEP/*INPUT (load $10 into >> mem-0) >> L5 - set data switches to 0001 0001, press STEP/*INPUT (load $11 into >> mem-1) >> L6 - set data switches to 0001 0010, press STEP/*INPUT (load $12 into >> mem-2) >> >> Examine: >> E1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 >> address pointer=0) >> E2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for READ/EXAMINE (*MP up) >> E3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) >> E4 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0000 ($10) >> E5 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0001 ($11) >> E6 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0010 ($12) >> >> If you miss step L1, you won't know where you are actually loading into >> memory. If you miss step E1, the examine steps (E4,E5,E6) will display >> addresses 3,4,5 rather than displaying addresses 0,1,2. The same issue >> applies when running a program, you normally have to reset state with the >> mode switches so the program starts running at 0. >> >> I don't like the switch labels of the original Elf, they can be >> misleading, but that's history. I relabelled/disambiguated them in my >> schematic and unit, the * labels above are the original switch labels, >> others are mine. >> >> >> >> On 2012 Mar 17, at 8:48 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display after I >>> press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit work fine. >>> However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and pressed >>> INPUT >>> and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. It didn't >>> happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control >>> circuit >>> seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/write >>> enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic state in >>> the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be entered to >>> the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of pins 18 and >>> 20 >>> (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when pressing >>> the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. >>> >>> >>> On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>> >>> Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting >>>> anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone >>>> mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I assume i >>>> just have to rewire the thing. >>>> >>>> On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: >>>> >>>> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 and >>>>> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I spent >>>>> a >>>>> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to simulate >>>>> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. But >>>>> >>>>> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing works. >>>>> I >>>>> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN pin >>>>> is >>>>> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can >>>>> think of >>>>> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the >>>>> diodes >>>>> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is >>>>> that I >>>>> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for some >>>>> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll >>>>> check >>>>> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the HP >>>>> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even >>>>> though >>>>> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins >>>>> low. I >>>>> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at >>>>> least >>>>> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. It's >>>>> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and indispensable >>>>> help! >>>>> >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the >>>>>> 4013 >>>>>> reset (10). >>>>>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low and >>>>>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the >>>>>> load >>>>>> mode switch). >>>>>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high >>>>>> as >>>>>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already >>>>>> tested >>>>>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> >> > From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 22 21:57:05 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 03:57:05 +0100 Subject: SA72 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6BE681.7050001@softjar.se> On 2012-03-22 08:01, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > From: "Johnny Billquist" > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:46 AM > To: > Subject: Re: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks > >> > Hum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the SA72 the box that holds up to >> > 4 RA7x drives? Same physical size as one RA90? >> > >> > If so, then no, it don't hold 4 RA9x drives. Also, the RA70 works just >> > fine in it, as do all RA7x drives. RA70 is somewhat unique, though, in >> > that it was designed to also be usable without any front panel at all. So >> > there are dip switches on it that can be used to set the unit number. >> > >> > Johnny >> > >> > -- >> > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> > || on a psychedelic trip >> > email:bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > You may very well be right Johnny. Of course I'm right. :-) Why do anyone even doubt that? :-) > I was just dumping my grey memory cells:-) I did not check the HW. > Isn't the SA72 a small slim long metal box with a power supply in the > middle and room for two RA[79]x drive at both ends? At the front side > at the top is a connector for the small front panel. The width of the front > is 0.5 of 19" so that two of these fit next to each other in a 19" rack. > If that's way off, I'd have to check what I actually have ... No, that's the thing. Yes, the PS is in the middle. It also have a rather special cable (or two if you want to use both ports) that come out. I don't know the right terminology here, but it's shaped like the standard D-sub, but is wider and higher, and have lots of pins. That cable splits into 4 SDI connectors at the other end. It only holds RA7x drives. One RA9x drive is the same size as the whole SA72. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 22 22:00:03 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 04:00:03 +0100 Subject: SA72 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6BE733.3030203@softjar.se> On 2012-03-22 08:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a couple of bare RA70 drives that I'd like to put into service > on machines that already have SDI controllers and no SCSI. My present > plans involve a plain shelf but a properly-fitting enclosure would be > nice. The SA72 takes more room than the plan RA70, you know. And you also need a special cable to the SA72. But on the other hand, you need a power supply if you use the plain RA70. But otherwise easily doable. Pick your poison. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 23 03:22:38 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:22:38 -0000 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Glen Slick [glen.slick at gmail.com] wrote: Are you offering those up in return for something? I have an > RA82 here in the Seattle area that I have never been able to > get to spin up or do anything at all. I haven't been able to > get anything out of the diagnostic port. I have found the > RA81 service manual online, but not the RA82 service manual. > It would be interesting to get it working just to see it working. The RA82 Field Maintenance Print Set (MP01427) is around (although I can see that a maintenance guide might be of more help). Antonio From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Mar 23 03:47:51 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:47:51 +0000 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Alex Melt wrote: > Sure, both series of Look Around You fit the description well. That is one of the funniest TV shows ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2k9JwGpm1w -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 04:05:33 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:05:33 -0000 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <082588E71893477790CA9F66090D8271@EMACHINE> In the UK we have a series "the IT Crowd" http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-it-crowd Which I guess is a "mockumentry" of sorts, and of course there are cartoons are really of that ilk www.dilbert.com And BOFH http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/10/bofh_2012_episode_1/ Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Many Jars > Sent: 23 March 2012 08:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: mockumentary? > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Alex Melt > wrote: > > Sure, both series of Look Around You fit the description well. > > That is one of the funniest TV shows ever. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2k9JwGpm1w > > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > > Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 23 04:25:34 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 02:25:34 -0700 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <055FC1E8-FFDD-40E4-8929-6B872D3EBE4E@cs.ubc.ca> Sounds like one of the switches is wired (or positioned if one prefers) the 'wrong way round'. Doublecheck the switch positions against the measured state on the mode pins: MODE RUN LOAD nCLEAR nWAIT switch switch pin 3 pin 2 ----- -------------------------------- RESET down down 0 +V PROGRAM down up 0 0 RUN up down +V +V PAUSE up up +V 0 The design is not the way one might expect it to be (RESET is not 0 & 0 at the 1802). On 2012 Mar 22, at 1:57 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > Again, as opposed to what I expected the display changes only if in > RESET > mode (both run and load low). When in LOAD mode (LOAD up, RUN down) > nothing > seems to happen before/after flipping data switches and pushing the > input > button. Isn't it supposed to be the other way? > > On 22 March 2012 15:20, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > >> The display only updates after the input button is pressed if in >> RESET >> mode (RUN down, LOAD down). If RUN down, LOAD up, can't see the >> display >> changing. >> >> On 18 March 2012 00:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> Idle state for RAM-R/W (20) should HIGH (read). >>> I expect idle state for RAM-OD (18) is also HIGH (RAM outputs >>> disabled). >>> >>> I would suggest before trying to run a program you confirm that >>> you are >>> able to load and examine memory. >>> >>> One of the subtle points here is that when loading/examining/ >>> running you >>> generally need to go 'through' the RESET state with the mode >>> switches to >>> reset the internal address pointer to zero. >>> >>> Here's a load/examine test sequence: >>> >>> Load: >>> L1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 >>> address pointer=0) >>> L2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for WRITE/LOAD (*MP down) >>> L3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) >>> L4 - set data switches to 0001 0000, press STEP/*INPUT (load $10 >>> into >>> mem-0) >>> L5 - set data switches to 0001 0001, press STEP/*INPUT (load $11 >>> into >>> mem-1) >>> L6 - set data switches to 0001 0010, press STEP/*INPUT (load $12 >>> into >>> mem-2) >>> >>> Examine: >>> E1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 >>> address pointer=0) >>> E2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for READ/EXAMINE (*MP up) >>> E3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) >>> E4 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0000 ($10) >>> E5 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0001 ($11) >>> E6 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0010 ($12) >>> >>> If you miss step L1, you won't know where you are actually >>> loading into >>> memory. If you miss step E1, the examine steps (E4,E5,E6) will >>> display >>> addresses 3,4,5 rather than displaying addresses 0,1,2. The same >>> issue >>> applies when running a program, you normally have to reset state >>> with the >>> mode switches so the program starts running at 0. >>> >>> I don't like the switch labels of the original Elf, they can be >>> misleading, but that's history. I relabelled/disambiguated them >>> in my >>> schematic and unit, the * labels above are the original switch >>> labels, >>> others are mine. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2012 Mar 17, at 8:48 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>> >>> Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display >>> after I >>>> press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit >>>> work fine. >>>> However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and >>>> pressed >>>> INPUT >>>> and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. >>>> It didn't >>>> happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control >>>> circuit >>>> seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/ >>>> write >>>> enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic >>>> state in >>>> the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be >>>> entered to >>>> the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of >>>> pins 18 and >>>> 20 >>>> (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when >>>> pressing >>>> the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop >>>> letting >>>>> anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if >>>>> someone >>>>> mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I >>>>> assume i >>>>> just have to rewire the thing. >>>>> >>>>> On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire >>>>> to SC1 and >>>>>> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, >>>>>> I spent >>>>>> a >>>>>> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to >>>>>> simulate >>>>>> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the >>>>>> oscilloscope. But >>>>>> >>>>>> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, >>>>>> nothing works. >>>>>> I >>>>>> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the >>>>>> DMA IN pin >>>>>> is >>>>>> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can >>>>>> think of >>>>>> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the >>>>>> diodes >>>>>> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other >>>>>> thing is >>>>>> that I >>>>>> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works >>>>>> (for some >>>>>> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the >>>>>> UK). I'll >>>>>> check >>>>>> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never >>>>>> sets the HP >>>>>> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and >>>>>> even >>>>>> though >>>>>> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the >>>>>> enable pins >>>>>> low. I >>>>>> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? >>>>>> Anyway, at >>>>>> least >>>>>> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it >>>>>> is. It's >>>>>> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and >>>>>> indispensable >>>>>> help! >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode >>>>>>> at the >>>>>>> 4013 >>>>>>> reset (10). >>>>>>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go >>>>>>> low and >>>>>>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you >>>>>>> flip the >>>>>>> load >>>>>>> mode switch). >>>>>>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly >>>>>>> pulse high >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> tested >>>>>>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >> From bqt at softjar.se Fri Mar 23 05:28:40 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: And RA8x too, was Re: RA90 or RA92 disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6C5058.1000506@softjar.se> On 2012-03-23 08:20, Glen Slick wrote: > Are you offering those up in return for something? I have an RA82 > here in the Seattle area that I have never been able to get to spin up > or do anything at all. I haven't been able to get anything out of the > diagnostic port. I have found the RA81 service manual online, but not > the RA82 service manual. It would be interesting to get it working > just to see it working. As far as I can remember or figure out, there is very little, if any differences between an RA81 and an RA82, so the service manual for the RA81 should work just fine. I hope you have removed the transport safeties if you try to spin it up. The diagnostics port is 300 bps, if I remember right. Hitting something like ^C should get its attention. You might also want/need to have both port selector buttons off to be allowed to play on the diagnostics port. I would think the details were in the service manual. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 23 10:04:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:04:48 -0600 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: A mockumentary is when developers create a short documentary film about the mock objects used in their unit tests. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 23 11:11:47 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Richard wrote: > A mockumentary is when developers create a short documentary film about > the mock objects used in their unit tests. > Booooo! Hisssss! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From legalize at xmission.com Fri Mar 23 12:56:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:56:02 -0600 Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > On Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Richard wrote: > > > A mockumentary is when developers create a short documentary film about > > the mock objects used in their unit tests. > > > Booooo! Hisssss! You know you love "testing" your unit. Admit it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 23 13:20:19 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: References: <4F6B2C79.3090305@conus.info> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Gene Buckle writes: > >> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Richard wrote: >> >>> A mockumentary is when developers create a short documentary film about >>> the mock objects used in their unit tests. >>> >> Booooo! Hisssss! > > You know you love "testing" your unit. Admit it. > The only thing I dislike more than unit tests are people that do nothing but harp about unit tests. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 23 15:37:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:37:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Mar 22, 12 07:21:09 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <4F6BCA80.4040201 at cimmeri.com>, > "js at cimmeri.com" writes: > > > LOOKING FOR: > > > > other hardware: > > - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. > > I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. Or maybe VT102 (which did exist). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 23 16:04:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 21:04:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <055FC1E8-FFDD-40E4-8929-6B872D3EBE4E@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 23, 12 02:25:34 am Message-ID: > > Sounds like one of the switches is wired (or positioned if one =20 > prefers) the 'wrong way round'. Doublecheck the switch positions =20 > against the measured state on the mode pins: One 'trap for the unwary' is that with most small toggle switches, if the lever is pushed to one side, a connection is made between the centre tag and the end tag _at the other side_. -------- \ | |-o \ | | \| |-o * | | | |-o * -------- With the toggle 'up' as shown here, the connection is made between the 2 tags I've marked with '*'s. It's fairly obvious if you know how the mechanism works, but not everybody has had a mis-spent childhood taking switches apart :-) I always check with an ohmmeter though. It only tkes a couple of seconds and it saves a lot of debugging time. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 23 16:26:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 17:26:56 -0400 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6CEAA0.5000900@neurotica.com> On 03/23/2012 04:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> other hardware: >>> - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. >> >> I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. > > Or maybe VT102 (which did exist). Still does, even! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 23 17:59:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockumentary? In-Reply-To: <20120322130657.P49367@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120322130657.P49367@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120323155928.K95814@shell.lmi.net> Here's a new software "app": http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en/landing/translateforanimals/tour.html From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 21:57:14 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 19:57:14 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2012 3:39 PM, "Mark Kahrs" wrote: > > Speaking of which, has anyone ever seen any documentation on the > Computer Logics ISA Pertec card? Register level documentation for writing directly to the card, or software documentation for writing to the driver? I have a PCTD-16 (well, actually 4 of them now) and I don't have any low level hardware register information. I do have software interface documentation for the real mode MS-DOS driver, which is a TSR which I believe is called API.EXE. I have written a couple crude utilities to write physical tapes from .TAP files and the other direction too. I have used this with a Fujitsu M2444AC? and Qualstar 1052. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 23 22:57:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:57:42 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F6CE3C6.7560.28B8D5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Mar 2012 at 19:57, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mar 23, 2012 3:39 PM, "Mark Kahrs" wrote: > > > Speaking of which, has anyone ever seen any documentation on the > > Computer Logics ISA Pertec card? > > Register level documentation for writing directly to the card, or > software documentation for writing to the driver? > > I have a PCTD-16 (well, actually 4 of them now) and I don't have any > low level hardware register information. I do have software interface > documentation for the real mode MS-DOS driver, which is a TSR which I > believe is called API.EXE. I have written a couple crude utilities to > write physical tapes from .TAP files and the other direction too. I > have used this with a Fujitsu M2444AC? and Qualstar 1052. I've disassembled bits and pieces of the drive for the PCTD 16, but there were several very different models of the cards. One used an FPGA that required the host to download the firmware to the FPGA before it was usable. I'm aware of the PCTD I, II and III (the FPGA one) and the 16. I believe that there was also one for Microchannel as well. There was also at least one PCI Pertec Interface card, but I don't believe it was Computer Logics/Chi that offered it--and I've never held one in my hands. The API to the driver software is documented, so once it's loaded, you can run your own programs that call the API. But as to what's inside the driver, well, that's a different issue. None of the cards, as far as I've been able to tell, shares low-level programming with the others. --Chuck From alkopop79 at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 09:21:34 2012 From: alkopop79 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gergely_L=C5=91rincz?=) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:21:34 +0000 Subject: Cosmac Elf on breadboard In-Reply-To: <055FC1E8-FFDD-40E4-8929-6B872D3EBE4E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25C2ADA4-9EA9-4FC4-8894-6C7C55B787D9@cs.ubc.ca> <4FB36CEF-9AD3-49F4-BB97-B15780A95D13@cs.ubc.ca> <3199AE22-220F-4B45-AE22-A92BB18FB10C@cs.ubc.ca> <42851F69-D74C-4FDC-930B-83E94B3F199D@cs.ubc.ca> <5A296217-AD41-469D-8501-5F10BD0C4B9B@cs.ubc.ca> <53112F02-5020-426E-BA00-C7A65EC1A61C@cs.ubc.ca> <055FC1E8-FFDD-40E4-8929-6B872D3EBE4E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Thought so... thanks for all the help! On 23 March 2012 09:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Sounds like one of the switches is wired (or positioned if one prefers) > the 'wrong way round'. Doublecheck the switch positions against the > measured state on the mode pins: > > MODE RUN LOAD nCLEAR nWAIT > switch switch pin 3 pin 2 > ----- ------------------------------**-- > RESET down down 0 +V > PROGRAM down up 0 0 > RUN up down +V +V > PAUSE up up +V 0 > > The design is not the way one might expect it to be (RESET is not 0 & 0 at > the 1802). > > > > > On 2012 Mar 22, at 1:57 PM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: > > Again, as opposed to what I expected the display changes only if in RESET >> mode (both run and load low). When in LOAD mode (LOAD up, RUN down) >> nothing >> seems to happen before/after flipping data switches and pushing the input >> button. Isn't it supposed to be the other way? >> >> On 22 March 2012 15:20, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >> >> The display only updates after the input button is pressed if in RESET >>> mode (RUN down, LOAD down). If RUN down, LOAD up, can't see the display >>> changing. >>> >>> On 18 March 2012 00:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>> Idle state for RAM-R/W (20) should HIGH (read). >>>> I expect idle state for RAM-OD (18) is also HIGH (RAM outputs disabled). >>>> >>>> I would suggest before trying to run a program you confirm that you are >>>> able to load and examine memory. >>>> >>>> One of the subtle points here is that when loading/examining/running you >>>> generally need to go 'through' the RESET state with the mode switches to >>>> reset the internal address pointer to zero. >>>> >>>> Here's a load/examine test sequence: >>>> >>>> Load: >>>> L1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 >>>> address pointer=0) >>>> L2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for WRITE/LOAD (*MP down) >>>> L3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) >>>> L4 - set data switches to 0001 0000, press STEP/*INPUT (load $10 into >>>> mem-0) >>>> L5 - set data switches to 0001 0001, press STEP/*INPUT (load $11 into >>>> mem-1) >>>> L6 - set data switches to 0001 0010, press STEP/*INPUT (load $12 into >>>> mem-2) >>>> >>>> Examine: >>>> E1 - set 2 mode switches for RESET (*RUN down, *LOAD down) (set 1802 >>>> address pointer=0) >>>> E2 - set MEM-RD/WR switch for READ/EXAMINE (*MP up) >>>> E3 - set mode for PROGRAM (flip *LOAD up) >>>> E4 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0000 ($10) >>>> E5 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0001 ($11) >>>> E6 - press STEP/*INPUT, display should be 0001 0010 ($12) >>>> >>>> If you miss step L1, you won't know where you are actually loading into >>>> memory. If you miss step E1, the examine steps (E4,E5,E6) will display >>>> addresses 3,4,5 rather than displaying addresses 0,1,2. The same issue >>>> applies when running a program, you normally have to reset state with >>>> the >>>> mode switches so the program starts running at 0. >>>> >>>> I don't like the switch labels of the original Elf, they can be >>>> misleading, but that's history. I relabelled/disambiguated them in my >>>> schematic and unit, the * labels above are the original switch labels, >>>> others are mine. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2012 Mar 17, at 8:48 AM, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>>> >>>> Getting there: finally I can see the hex result on the display after I >>>> >>>>> press the input button. Seems to me that the control circuit work fine. >>>>> However I tried to test the machine by entering 7b (SEQ) and pressed >>>>> INPUT >>>>> and set to RUN mode, expecting the Q output change it's state. It >>>>> didn't >>>>> happen:( The 1802the input and output section and the whole control >>>>> circuit >>>>> seem to work fine so I checked the RAMs. It seems that the read/write >>>>> enable and output disable pins (18 and 20) show different logic state >>>>> in >>>>> the two memory ICs. I assume this stops the instruction to be entered >>>>> to >>>>> the memory. Can you guys tell me what should be the state of pins 18 >>>>> and >>>>> 20 >>>>> (output disable and write enable) in run and load mode and when >>>>> pressing >>>>> the input button? The datasheet doesn't have much info on this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16 March 2012 18:15, Gergely L?rincz wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Problem (partially) solved: the LOAD switch stops the fliflop letting >>>>> >>>>>> anything pass through until it's set on ( RESET mode). As if someone >>>>>> mentioned it that particular bit is wrong on the schematics. I assume >>>>>> i >>>>>> just have to rewire the thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16 Mar 2012 00:51, "Gergely L?rincz" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All of these test are done. Conclusion: if I remove the wire to SC1 >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> reset the 4013, it works fine, just as you described. In fact, I >>>>>>> spent >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> few hours sending pulses from an Arduino (microsecond ones) to >>>>>>> simulate >>>>>>> SC1. I even managed to see the pulse from *Q* on the oscilloscope. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> >>>>>>> once the wire between the 4013 and the SC1 pin is used, nothing >>>>>>> works. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> even tried two different 1802s and they work fine (when the DMA IN >>>>>>> pin >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> set low, SC1 instantly goes high). The only possible reason I can >>>>>>> think of >>>>>>> (since both the 1802 and 4013 works perfectly) is that one of the >>>>>>> diodes >>>>>>> are either broken or placed the wrong way around. An other thing is >>>>>>> that I >>>>>>> use a SPST button (input) instead of the SPDT. It still works (for >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> weird reason no SPDT buttons are rare and expensive in the UK). I'll >>>>>>> check >>>>>>> this tomorrow. The other mystery is that why the 4023 never sets the >>>>>>> HP >>>>>>> displays to enable mode. The displays are stuck (latched) and even >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> they work perfectly, the NAND gate (4023) never sets the enable pins >>>>>>> low. I >>>>>>> wonder if that has to anything with the previous problem? Anyway, at >>>>>>> least >>>>>>> I know where the problem is, even though I don't know what it is. >>>>>>> It's >>>>>>> certainly a good start! Thanks for all of your effort and >>>>>>> indispensable >>>>>>> help! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Debugging trial: remove the connection from SC1 to the diode at the >>>>>>>> 4013 >>>>>>>> reset (10). >>>>>>>> Now, when the input switch is released, nQ & nDMAIN should go low >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> STAY low as there is nothing to reset the 4013 (until you flip the >>>>>>>> load >>>>>>>> mode switch). >>>>>>>> It follows SC1 should go high and stay high or repeatedly pulse high >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> the 1802 is being held in the DMA state (which I think you already >>>>>>>> tested >>>>>>>> by forcing nDMAIN low). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 12:31:33 2012 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:31:33 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive Message-ID: Speaking of which, has anyone ever seen any documentation on the Computer Logics ISA Pertec card? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 18:33:15 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 19:33:15 -0400 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics Message-ID: > From:?Richard > Date:?Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:24:15 -0600 >> I am a volunteer at the RICM. The Calcomp systems are not in any >> danger of being scraped. > > heh heh, well I didn't expect you'd scrap them :). ?I just meant it > would be nice to hear of any progress made on getting them > functioning. > >> Maybe you should come for a visit and get some of them running? > > It's a long trip for me -- I'm in Salt Lake City. ?However, I'm likely > to be out on the east coast this summer and a side trip up to RICM > would be a good visit. ?I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to > start on these Calcomp System 25s in order to get them operational, > however. ?Do you have documentation on them? ?User manuals? Service > manuals? We have boxes and boxes and boxes of documentation and spares. -- Michael Thompson From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 04:38:17 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:38:17 -0000 Subject: Cable for RX50 Message-ID: <02ae01cd09a1$d9072080$8b156180$@ntlworld.com> I recently picked up an RX50 for my MicroVAX II. It does not have the cable with it to connect to the BA123 distribution board, however it seems to fit a traditional PC floppy disk cable, is that all it needs? Thanks Rob From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Mar 24 04:55:03 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:55:03 -0000 Subject: Complete "Amateur Computer Society" Newsletter Available Online In-Reply-To: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Absolutely absorbing!! They cover the period when I was at college and then early days as an electronics engineer. All very familiar. Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley Sent: 22 March 2012 19:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Complete "Amateur Computer Society" Newsletter Available Online The Amateur Computer Society (ACS) was founded by Stephen B. Gray in May, 1966. The ACS was for those who "are building or operating a homemade computer from their home". An interesting requirement was that the computer had to at least perform "automatic multiplication and division". In practice, membership was open to anyone who had a "serious" digital computer operating from their home. In my case that included a RPC-4000 ;-) Since I had been a member of the ACS, I had searched everywhere online for the complete set of ACS Newsletters - and found only isolated copies of individual newsletters. I did find that Stephen Gray had donated his original complete set to the Babbage Institute. Subsequently, I did a detailed search of the Computer History Museum's (CHM) archives via their Collections Department. I was excited to find that the CHM also had a complete set of the ACS Newsletter. I requested that they scan and make a PDF copy (including OCR) of same - and for a modest scanning fee they did so. It is now available to the world (free) via CHM's website: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102654910 Go to the bottom of the page where there is a link to the PDF. For those who would like to know the earliest history of "home computers", I think you'll find it a fascinating read... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 05:12:57 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:12:57 -0000 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? Message-ID: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone have a scan of an RX50 manual? I powered on the RX50 I just got, without a cable attaching it to the RQDX3 though. It flashes two red lights for a moment and then nothing happens, the doors do not appear to be unlocked, or I don't remember how to open them. It could be because I have not connected a cable, but I don't know. There are two floppies in the drive at the moment too. Thanks Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 24 05:34:00 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:34:00 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: From: "Rob Jarratt" Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 11:12 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? > Does anyone have a scan of an RX50 manual? > > I powered on the RX50 I just got, without a cable attaching it to the > RQDX3 > though. It flashes two red lights for a moment and then nothing happens, > the > doors do not appear to be unlocked, or I don't remember how to open them. > It > could be because I have not connected a cable, but I don't know. There are > two floppies in the drive at the moment too. > > Thanks > > Rob As far as I know, there is no locking mechanism to prevent the opening of the drive slots to access to floppy. I guess you know how that works. The upper "door" flaps open in the upward direction, the lower "door" flaps open in the downward direction. I remember the drive ribbon cable to be nothing special. Plus you need the standard 4-pin power supply cable to power the RX50. I don't know the behavior of the RX50 if powered without ribbon cable. I normally connect everything before powering up :-) - Henk From rivie at ridgenet.net Sat Mar 24 09:47:05 2012 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02ae01cd09a1$d9072080$8b156180$@ntlworld.com> References: <02ae01cd09a1$d9072080$8b156180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I recently picked up an RX50 for my MicroVAX II. It does not have the cable > with it to connect to the BA123 distribution board, however it seems to fit > a traditional PC floppy disk cable, is that all it needs? Traditional *PC* floppy cables have the whacky drive select/motor on twist in them. You need a cable without a twist. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 09:58:45 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 14:58:45 -0000 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: References: <02ae01cd09a1$d9072080$8b156180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Ivie > Sent: 24 March 2012 14:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Cable for RX50 > > On Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > I recently picked up an RX50 for my MicroVAX II. It does not have the > > cable with it to connect to the BA123 distribution board, however it > > seems to fit a traditional PC floppy disk cable, is that all it needs? > > Traditional *PC* floppy cables have the whacky drive select/motor on twist > in them. You need a cable without a twist. > -- > roger ivie > rivie at ridgenet.net I have a cable with two connectors, one is connected to the other end straight, and one with a twist. Presumably if I connect to the non-twist connector that will be OK? I notice though that the connector is not keyed, any idea which way to connect it at the RX50 end? Thanks Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Mar 24 10:54:22 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 15:54:22 -0000 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> > I notice though that the connector is not keyed, any idea > which way to connect it at the RX50 end? Not a direct answer (as I cannot get to my rainbow easily right now) but EK-PC100-TM-001 (the Rainbow 100 Technical Manual) does have cable pinouts starting at p3-17. Antonio From js at cimmeri.com Sat Mar 24 12:10:23 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:10:23 -0500 Subject: FT: Data General Nova 2, Nova 1200, and DG terminal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6DFFFF.40706@cimmeri.com> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> "js at cimmeri.com" writes: >> >> >>> LOOKING FOR: >>> >>> other hardware: >>> - VT-201 or other DEC monochrome. >>> >> I think you mean VT-220. There is no VT-201. >> > > Or maybe VT102 (which did exist). > > -tony Oops. I meant, VR-201. - John Singleton From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Sat Mar 24 12:14:01 2012 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 2200mvp Message-ID: <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Until a few years ago I had a Wang 2200 MVP.? When I was using it in my high school classroom an administrator had the room cleaned and moved the system outside.? A sudden storm destroyed the CPU and drives.? I have several working Wang 2236 terminals if somebody has a need for one.? Also, I would like to locate a 2200 MVP to play with again.? I am also looking for homes for a pair of Wang PCs from about 1990, two different models, one set up for networking. ? John From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 12:37:57 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:37:57 -0000 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> References: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 24 March 2012 15:54 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: Cable for RX50 > > > I notice though that the connector is not keyed, any idea which way to > > connect it at the RX50 end? > > Not a direct answer (as I cannot get to my rainbow easily right now) but > EK-PC100-TM-001 (the Rainbow 100 Technical Manual) does have cable > pinouts starting at p3-17. > > Antonio Many thanks, downloading now. Regards Rob From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 24 14:21:06 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:21:06 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > > From: Richard > > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:24:15 -0600 > > > however. Do you have documentation on them? User manuals? Service > > manuals? > > We have boxes and boxes and boxes of documentation and spares. Any chance those can be scanned and put online for me to look at? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 24 14:22:39 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:22:39 -0600 Subject: Wang 2200mvp In-Reply-To: <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo at web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, JC White writes: > Until a few years ago I had a Wang 2200 MVP. When I was using it in my > high school classroom an administrator had the room cleaned and moved the > system outside. A sudden storm destroyed the CPU and drives. Hopefully said administrator was given a severe talking to. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 24 14:54:08 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:54:08 -0700 Subject: Complete "Amateur Computer Society" Newsletter Available Online In-Reply-To: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Echoing Rod's sentiments, these are great, thanks for the effort to make them available. Lots of commentary about the state of affairs during that period, such as what amounts to a chronology of the availability of ICs to the hobbyist/consumer. The Minuteman-I/D17B is discussed. I see Don Tarbell's name is present as early as 1968. Even still-useful technical information, for example for somebody wanting to do experiments with core memory today. On 2012 Mar 22, at 12:34 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > The Amateur Computer Society (ACS) was founded by Stephen B. Gray > in May, 1966. The ACS was for those who "are building or operating > a homemade computer from their home". An interesting requirement > was that the computer had to at least perform "automatic > multiplication and division". In practice, membership was open to > anyone who had a "serious" digital computer operating from their > home. In my case that included a RPC-4000 ;-) > > Since I had been a member of the ACS, I had searched everywhere > online for the complete set of ACS Newsletters - and found only > isolated copies of individual newsletters. > > I did find that Stephen Gray had donated his original complete set > to the Babbage Institute. Subsequently, I did a detailed search of > the Computer History Museum's (CHM) archives via their Collections > Department. I was excited to find that the CHM also had a complete > set of the ACS Newsletter. I requested that they scan and make a > PDF copy (including OCR) of same - and for a modest scanning fee > they did so. It is now available to the world (free) via CHM's > website: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102654910 > > Go to the bottom of the page where there is a link to the PDF. > > For those who would like to know the earliest history of "home > computers", I think you'll find it a fascinating read... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 14:57:04 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:57:04 -0000 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 24 March 2012 17:38 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: Cable for RX50 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > > Sent: 24 March 2012 15:54 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'General > Discussion: > > On-Topic Posts Only' > > Subject: RE: Cable for RX50 > > > > > I notice though that the connector is not keyed, any idea which way > > > to connect it at the RX50 end? > > > > Not a direct answer (as I cannot get to my rainbow easily right now) > > but > > EK-PC100-TM-001 (the Rainbow 100 Technical Manual) does have cable > > pinouts starting at p3-17. > > > > Antonio > > Many thanks, downloading now. > > Regards > > Rob So, I discovered that the doors were not blocked, as usual, I was just being too cautious with the amount of pressure I was putting on them. They open fine and I got the disks out. One was labelled as a system disk for a DECmate III. I have not been able to work out the how the cable should be connected from printsets and other technical docs I have, so I am reluctant to connect it up in case I get the wrong orientation of the connector (or the wrong cable, if it is not straight through). From the 630QB technical manual, I believe the cable I need is a 17-00867-01. If someone has one of these and can tell me if it is straight through and how the connectors are keyed that would be great. Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 15:06:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:06:31 -0400 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> References: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F6E2947.4060705@neurotica.com> On 03/24/2012 03:57 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have not been able to work out the how the cable should be connected from > printsets and other technical docs I have, so I am reluctant to connect it > up in case I get the wrong orientation of the connector (or the wrong cable, > if it is not straight through). From the 630QB technical manual, I believe > the cable I need is a 17-00867-01. If someone has one of these and can tell > me if it is straight through and how the connectors are keyed that would be > great. I have one here, I will dig into it in a moment. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 15:36:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:36:55 -0400 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> References: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F6E3067.5040006@neurotica.com> On 03/24/2012 03:57 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have not been able to work out the how the cable should be connected from > printsets and other technical docs I have, so I am reluctant to connect it > up in case I get the wrong orientation of the connector (or the wrong cable, > if it is not straight through). From the 630QB technical manual, I believe > the cable I need is a 17-00867-01. If someone has one of these and can tell > me if it is straight through and how the connectors are keyed that would be > great. The cable is a no-brainer; just a straight ribbon cable with IDC connectors on each end. On the RX50 drive itself pin 1 of the ribbon cable is the one that's closest to the power connector. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 24 14:55:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:55:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02ae01cd09a1$d9072080$8b156180$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 24, 12 09:38:17 am Message-ID: > > I recently picked up an RX50 for my MicroVAX II. It does not have the cable > with it to connect to the BA123 distribution board, however it seems to fit > a traditional PC floppy disk cable, is that all it needs? AFAIK it's just a straight-through 34 way ribbon cable with IDC sockets. It does not have an 'IBM Twist' or anything like that. It should be possible to make one in a few minutes :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 24 15:56:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 24, 12 02:58:45 pm Message-ID: > I have a cable with two connectors, one is connected to the other end > straight, and one with a twist. Presumably if I connect to the non-twist > connector that will be OK? Should be. > > I notice though that the connector is not keyed, any idea which way to > connect it at the RX50 end? One row of pins on the RX50 are all grounds, so they're connected toghter, and to the middle 2 pins on the power conenctor. Similarly one row of pins on the distribution board are all grounds (connected togther and to the systme 0V rail). Conenct the calbe to these 2 rows are linked up and you should eb OK. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 16:10:07 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 14:10:07 -0700 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > As far as I know, there is no locking mechanism to prevent the opening > of the drive slots to access to floppy. I guess you know how that works. > The upper "door" flaps open in the upward direction, the lower "door" > flaps open in the downward direction. > I remember the drive ribbon cable to be nothing special. Plus you need > the standard 4-pin power supply cable to power the RX50. > > I don't know the behavior of the RX50 if powered without ribbon cable. > I normally connect everything before powering up :-) I also seem to remember the disks are 400K single sided and go in the drive in opposite direction so you need to remember the orientation of the floppies. I believe there are markings on DEC floppies and the drive to indicate the correct way to insert them. Just pull on the upper or bottom door from the center. It should pull open. pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 16:20:13 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 21:20:13 -0000 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02f701cd0a03$e89e71d0$b9db5570$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton Hoag > Sent: 24 March 2012 21:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? > > > As far as I know, there is no locking mechanism to prevent the opening > > of the drive slots to access to floppy. I guess you know how that works. > > The upper "door" flaps open in the upward direction, the lower "door" > > flaps open in the downward direction. > > I remember the drive ribbon cable to be nothing special. Plus you need > > the standard 4-pin power supply cable to power the RX50. > > > > I don't know the behavior of the RX50 if powered without ribbon cable. > > I normally connect everything before powering up :-) > > > I also seem to remember the disks are 400K single sided and go in the drive > in opposite direction so you need to remember the orientation of the > floppies. > > I believe there are markings on DEC floppies and the drive to indicate the > correct way to insert them. > > Just pull on the upper or bottom door from the center. It should pull open. > > pax > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA Thanks, yes, I was just being too delicate for fear of breaking something. The doors open just fine. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 24 16:23:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:23:21 -0400 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F6E3B49.3060203@neurotica.com> On 03/24/2012 05:10 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > I also seem to remember the disks are 400K single sided and go in the > drive in opposite direction so you need to remember the orientation of > the floppies. > > I believe there are markings on DEC floppies and the drive to indicate > the correct way to insert them. Yes, there are little orange stickers on the DEC-branded floppies. In any case, the top side of the disk goes toward the "outside" of the drive in both cases. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 24 16:27:05 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 21:27:05 -0000 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <4F6E3067.5040006@neurotica.com> References: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> <4F6E3067.5040006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <02f801cd0a04$ddda9890$998fc9b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 24 March 2012 20:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cable for RX50 > > On 03/24/2012 03:57 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have not been able to work out the how the cable should be connected > > from printsets and other technical docs I have, so I am reluctant to > > connect it up in case I get the wrong orientation of the connector (or > > the wrong cable, if it is not straight through). From the 630QB > > technical manual, I believe the cable I need is a 17-00867-01. If > > someone has one of these and can tell me if it is straight through and > > how the connectors are keyed that would be great. > > The cable is a no-brainer; just a straight ribbon cable with IDC connectors > on each end. > > On the RX50 drive itself pin 1 of the ribbon cable is the one that's closest > to the power connector. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA That is great, I tried it and it worked. However, VMS is only recognising one of the two drives in the RX50. Apart from any possible faults in the drive, cable, distribution board etc, is there any config needed on the drive itself, bearing in mind that this is in a BA123 with an M9058 distribution board? I have two hard disks in the machine, which are being recognised as DUA0 and DUA1, I have DUA2 as one of the RX50s (the one on the right when it oriented vertically, it would be the bottom one if it was horizontal), but no DUA3. There is some confusing wording in the RQDX3 docs which suggests the drives are numbered automatically by the M9058, but then it says to be careful with the config in the drive to avoid conflicts. Regards Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 24 16:40:20 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:40:20 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: From: "Paxton Hoag" Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 10:10 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? >> As far as I know, there is no locking mechanism to prevent the opening >> of the drive slots to access to floppy. I guess you know how that works. >> The upper "door" flaps open in the upward direction, the lower "door" >> flaps open in the downward direction. >> I remember the drive ribbon cable to be nothing special. Plus you need >> the standard 4-pin power supply cable to power the RX50. >> >> I don't know the behavior of the RX50 if powered without ribbon cable. >> I normally connect everything before powering up :-) > > > I also seem to remember the disks are 400K single sided and go in the > drive in opposite direction so you need to remember the orientation of > the floppies. > > I believe there are markings on DEC floppies and the drive to indicate > the correct way to insert them. > > Just pull on the upper or bottom door from the center. It should pull > open. > > pax > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA Yeah, I also remember that the floppies are 400 KB. Regarding insertion orientation (up/down) is easy if you remember that the drive motor (spindle) is *between* them. And the "bottom" side of the floppy always goes onto the spindle. Another "quirk" of the RX50 is that the head movement stuff is also shared for both heads. So floppy-to-floppy copy can be slow because the head has to reposition every time the access goes from one disk to the other. - Henk. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 24 18:07:46 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:07:46 -0700 Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <02bc01cd09a6$b1081350$131839f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F6E53C2.5040108@brouhaha.com> Henk Gooijen wrote about the RX50: > Another "quirk" of the RX50 is that the head movement stuff is also > shared for both heads. So floppy-to-floppy copy can be slow because > the head has to reposition every time the access goes from one disk > to the other. If you are doing a file copy, it can be inefficient. But it's optimal for track-at-a-time disk image copy, because for each track you only have to position once, read the track from the source drive, and write to the destination drive. From rickb at bensene.com Sat Mar 24 12:33:06 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:33:06 -0700 Subject: Wang 2200mvp Message-ID: Jim Battle wrote a great Wang 2200 emulator that runs the actual 2200 microcode, so it is a very faithful emulation. It might help bring back some memories until you can find the real thing. http://www.wang2200.org/emu.html Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com JC White wrote: >Until a few years ago I had a Wang 2200 MVP.? When I was using it in my high school classroom an administrator had the room cleaned and moved the system outside.? A sudden storm destroyed the CPU and drives.? I have several working Wang 2236 terminals if somebody has a need for one.? Also, I would like to locate a 2200 MVP to play with again.? I am also looking for homes for a pair of Wang PCs from about 1990, two different models, one set up for networking. >? >John From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 24 20:07:31 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:07:31 -0600 Subject: Wang 2200mvp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rick Bensene writes: > http://www.wang2200.org/emu.html Hey, thanks for reminding me of this site, I found a manual for the 2236 terminal there! Has anyone had any success running the 2200 emulator with a *real* wang terminal? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Mar 24 21:59:11 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:59:11 -0700 Subject: Wang 2200mvp In-Reply-To: <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F6E89FF.7040302@mail.msu.edu> On 3/24/2012 10:14 AM, JC White wrote: > Until a few years ago I had a Wang 2200 MVP. When I was using it in my high school classroom an administrator had the room cleaned and moved the system outside. A sudden storm destroyed the CPU and drives. I have several working Wang 2236 terminals if somebody has a need for one. Also, I would like to locate a 2200 MVP to play with again. I am also looking for homes for a pair of Wang PCs from about 1990, two different models, one set up for networking. > > John > To add to this, at RE-PC in Seattle, WA there's a bunch of 2200 MVP hardware sitting in the back corner: a set of manuals, a couple of terminals w/keyboards and some 8" drive units. Alas, no CPU (or I would have picked it up for myself :)) Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Mar 24 22:02:39 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:02:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for Terak 8510/a Keyboard/Monitor Message-ID: <4F6E8ACF.3030401@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Acquired a Terak 8510/a today in pieces, sans Keyboard and Monitor (but with external 8512 drive). Anyone have spares for this system that they'd be willing to part with? Thanks as always, Josh From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 22:28:37 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:28:37 -0700 Subject: Wang 2200mvp In-Reply-To: <4F6E89FF.7040302@mail.msu.edu> References: <1332609241.81279.YahooMailNeo@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6E89FF.7040302@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2012 8:03 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > To add to this, at RE-PC in Seattle, WA there's a bunch of 2200 MVP hardware sitting in the back corner: a set of manuals, a couple of terminals w/keyboards and some 8" drive units. Alas, no CPU (or I would have picked it up for myself :)) > > Josh I happened to see that stuff there today myself while dropping off a dead monitor for recycle. I thought about taking some pictures with my phone but didn't bother. I think it was something like $75 for each of the two 8-inch floppy drive boxes. One with 3 drives and the other with 2. I saw at least 3 keyboards. I don't know anything about Wang equipment so I couldn't tell you what it was. -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 00:23:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:23:17 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4F69F9B1.8010002@pico-systems.com> <411AE1A6-12F1-48A7-9BAC-5D45A9425E4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F6EABC5.30207@neurotica.com> On 03/21/2012 03:10 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wheres one find a source of the 7 track tapes? i aquired a rack with some > rk05's and a t6b40-9-45 u2 i think is a 7 track drive from the manual i > found on bit savers describing t6x40 also gotta source a controllor and a > cable for it > got a pdp8a and a heathkit h11 > http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/joncohen1/dec_boards127.jpg I just spotted this; not sure how it got buried in my inbox. Adrian, that's definitely a tension-arm drive. Be careful of that upper right metal roller with the rubber tire on it. Every one I have here is starting to turn to goo right about now. That's a 1200' tape reel on there. You know, that drive bears a more-than-superficial resemblance to the DEC TS11, with repositioned lights and buttons. Hmmmmmm. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Mar 24 10:15:02 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:15:02 -0500 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay Message-ID: <4F6DE4F6.7020807@comcast.net> PIXAR's first computer used to make portions of the 3d short (Red's Dream) is now on Ebay (wife refuses to let me keep it and hang it on our wall). Thought you might be interested in it, here is the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIXAR-Image-Computer-Panel-Framed-Museum-Piece-RARE-Steve-Jobs-Apple-Vintage-/270942048213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15678fd5#ht_500wt_1262 From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Mar 24 10:54:32 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:54:32 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions Message-ID: <201203241554.q2OFsWP3014054@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Not sure how separate classicmp pdp8 readers are from alt.sys.pdp8/pdp8-lovers readers so trying here also. Nothing new if you saw it previously. Does anyone have 4k BASIC or Spacewar? Poly BASIC, DECUS 8-195 seems to be 4k. I think Edusystem 10/15 BASIC also ran in 4k. I think there also was a 4k Poly Spacewar. I have this one which is 4k but it doesn't have gravity etc. / SPACE WAR / / INTERPLANETARY DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ON YOUR / LAB-8 / / EVAN SUITS My desktop straight 8 is missing the wood side panels so I want to make some. I took pictures and measurements of MARCH's but I can't remember if they were real wood veneer or imitation laminate. Does anybody know more or can look closely at their's? Online seems to think it was rosewood but doesn't say if it was real wood. One reply on pdp8-lovers said the desktop panels were imitation and another said the rackmount were real. Did current stright 8 owners do margin checks and if so what margins are reasonable to shoot for? The manual doesn't seem to clearly say. The last is the DF32 with the straight 8 has modified W103 device selectors. It seems that they were modified from pulse amp outputs to DC coupled level outputs. Has anyone seen this done before? http://www.pdp8online.com/dfds32/pics/w103-mod.shtml?small (next picture is schematic). I'm still working on getting the drive running so haven't seen if they work ok. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 01:04:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:04:55 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6DE4F6.7020807@comcast.net> References: <4F6DE4F6.7020807@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F6EB587.3030200@neurotica.com> On 03/24/2012 11:15 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > PIXAR's first computer used to make portions of the 3d short (Red's > Dream) is now on Ebay (wife refuses to let me keep it and hang it on our > wall). > > Thought you might be interested in it, here is the link: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIXAR-Image-Computer-Panel-Framed-Museum-Piece-RARE-Steve-Jobs-Apple-Vintage-/270942048213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15678fd5#ht_500wt_1262 > Nice. Sounds like it's time to put the wife on eBay. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jgessling at yahoo.com Sun Mar 25 09:33:38 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 07:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions Message-ID: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels.?? Forests around the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. Thanks, Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 09:40:18 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels.?? Forests around the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. There is plenty of old rosewood kicking around, from scrapped furniture. Not super cheap, but available. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 25 11:28:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6EB587.3030200@neurotica.com> References: <4F6DE4F6.7020807@comcast.net> <4F6EB587.3030200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/24/2012 11:15 AM, Nick Allen wrote: >> PIXAR's first computer used to make portions of the 3d short (Red's >> Dream) is now on Ebay (wife refuses to let me keep it and hang it on our >> wall). >> >> Thought you might be interested in it, here is the link: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIXAR-Image-Computer-Panel-Framed-Museum-Piece-RARE-Steve-Jobs-Apple-Vintage-/270942048213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15678fd5#ht_500wt_1262 >> > > Nice. > > Sounds like it's time to put the wife on eBay. ;) > Is she RARE!!!!11111oneoneone!!1? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 25 11:35:44 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, James Gessling wrote: > Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels.?? Forests around the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. > Agreed. Baby seal skin looks SO much nicer anyway. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 25 11:33:00 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:33:00 -0500 Subject: Looking for Terak 8510/a Keyboard/Monitor In-Reply-To: <4F6E8ACF.3030401@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F6E8ACF.3030401@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201203251638.q2PGcPDa018733@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:02 PM 3/24/2012, Josh Dersch wrote: >Hi all -- > >Acquired a Terak 8510/a today in pieces, sans Keyboard and Monitor (but with external 8512 drive). Anyone have spares for this system that they'd be willing to part with? The monitor is easy, it's just RS-170. Keyboard is more tricky. Docs are online, maybe you can find a compatible keyboard. This was used at MSU? Did you get any software for it? - John From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 25 11:50:21 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 12:50:21 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6DE4F6.7020807@comcast.net> References: <4F6DE4F6.7020807@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> On 24/03/12 11:15 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > PIXAR's first computer used to make portions of the 3d short (Red's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hate to quibble, but where's the computer? --T > Dream) is now on Ebay (wife refuses to let me keep it and hang it on our > wall). > > Thought you might be interested in it, here is the link: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIXAR-Image-Computer-Panel-Framed-Museum-Piece-RARE-Steve-Jobs-Apple-Vintage-/270942048213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15678fd5#ht_500wt_1262 > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Mar 25 13:38:35 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:38:35 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow spotted in RetroBites TV clip In-Reply-To: <4F6B395F.9090103@brouhaha.com> References: <4F6B395F.9090103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: It looks wide enough to be a PRO Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 22 March 2012 14:38 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC Rainbow spotted in RetroBites TV clip Or is it a Pro or DECmate? In any case, easily overlooked due to the antics of Penn & Teller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd8eOVUIogw From jgessling at yahoo.com Sun Mar 25 13:50:28 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Isn't this just a piece of plastic with a logo embossed in it?? And why does anyone think Red's Dream is so great anyway?? I'm not bidding. Regards, Jim ________________________________ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 25 14:00:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 12:00:30 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4F6F08DE.2634.AAEC97@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Mar 2012 at 10:40, William Donzelli wrote: > > Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels.?? Forests around > > the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. > > There is plenty of old rosewood kicking around, from scrapped > furniture. Not super cheap, but available. ...and plenty of fake "rosewood", going back to the 19th century as well as being present on many cheap Chinese knockoff guitar models, so if you go the used route, be very careful. If you're after the "look", consider various painting techniques to simulate the appearance of rosewood (see previous paragraph). There are many dense attractive wood species. Not long ago, I was impressed by a tabletop made of plain old Ipe that was buffed to a glossy finish (no varnish, just good abrasives and some power). --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 25 13:33:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:33:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone Have a DEC RX50 Manual? In-Reply-To: from "Paxton Hoag" at Mar 24, 12 02:10:07 pm Message-ID: > > I also seem to remember the disks are 400K single sided and go in the The exact capacity depends on the format and encoding method. Each disk is single-sided, 80 cylinders, soft sectored. It's similar ot a PC 360K disk but with all 80 tracks on one side (A PC 360K disk is 40 cylinders, 2 hears, of course) > drive in opposite direction so you need to remember the orientation of > the floppies. Indeed. There are actually good emchancial reasons for this. The mechanism is built o na metal chassis in the middle of the drive. There's a disk hub on each side, the spindle motor lies horizontally at the front, a belt links them all up. The head postioner stepper is at the rear, it has a ledschre mechansim that moves a head carriage with the head for each disk on it. So for easy of head mounting ,the active surface of each disk is closest to the midle of the drive. And that's the side without the label on the disk. So the labels face outwards in both cases. -tony From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Mar 25 15:10:49 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:10:49 -0700 Subject: Looking for Terak 8510/a Keyboard/Monitor In-Reply-To: <201203251638.q2PGcPDa018733@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F6E8ACF.3030401@mail.msu.edu> <201203251638.q2PGcPDa018733@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F6F7BC9.80600@mail.msu.edu> On 3/25/2012 9:33 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:02 PM 3/24/2012, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Acquired a Terak 8510/a today in pieces, sans Keyboard and Monitor (but with external 8512 drive). Anyone have spares for this system that they'd be willing to part with? > The monitor is easy, it's just RS-170. Keyboard is more tricky. > Docs are online, maybe you can find a compatible keyboard. True enough. I'd like to at some point get originals of these, but I suppose I can make do in the meantime. > > > This was used at MSU? Did you get any software for it? No idea where it was used, got it off eBay yesterday (hasn't arrived yet). No software, and the 8510/8512 are in semi-complete condition (all electronics appear to be present, but no covers for the cases). Thanks, Josh > > - John > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Mar 25 15:19:29 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203241554.q2OFsWP3014054@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <1332706769.88435.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 3/24/12, David Gesswein wrote: > One reply on > pdp8-lovers said the desktop panels were imitation and > another said the > rackmount were real. The panels on the front of a rack-mount straight-8 are plastic laminate. It was not unknown, however, for DEC to use real wood in the cabinetry -- I have several examples of blank painted wooden panels that hang on the front of a rack and are held to it by magnetic latches. --Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 15:29:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:29:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F6F801F.2070705@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 10:33 AM, James Gessling wrote: > Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels. Forests around > the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. You've gotta be kidding. Are you concerned that he's going to start a run on rosewood for all the remaining Straight-8s in the world, and that dozen or so machines will decimate the world's remaining rosewood? [shakes head] No. USE real rosewood for the side panels. Straight-8s don't grow on trees, wheres rosewood, well, pretty much does! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 15:30:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:30:16 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F6F8058.3050608@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 12:35 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels. Forests around >> the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. >> > Agreed. Baby seal skin looks SO much nicer anyway. But they have to be clubbed. Better pattern that way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 15:31:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:31:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332706769.88435.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332706769.88435.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F6F809B.7080508@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 04:19 PM, William Maddox wrote: > The panels on the front of a rack-mount straight-8 are > plastic laminate. It was not unknown, however, for DEC > to use real wood in the cabinetry -- I have several > examples of blank painted wooden panels that hang on the > front of a rack and are held to it by magnetic latches. I have some internal DEC prototypes of the BA123, called the "woody box", that have solid oak tops. They are beautiful. I'll take pics of them soon; they'll be in the next truckload coming up from FL. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 15:32:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:32:39 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 02:50 PM, James Gessling wrote: > Isn't this just a piece of plastic with a logo embossed in it? And > why does anyone think Red's Dream is so great anyway? I'm not > bidding. The whole computer would've been much more interesting. If the starting price weren't so high, I'd have placed a bid just out of sympathy for someone with such a wife. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 15:34:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:34:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F6F08DE.2634.AAEC97@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F6F08DE.2634.AAEC97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F6F8159.6040107@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 03:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There is plenty of old rosewood kicking around, from scrapped >> furniture. Not super cheap, but available. > > ...and plenty of fake "rosewood", going back to the 19th century as > well as being present on many cheap Chinese knockoff guitar models, > so if you go the used route, be very careful. > > If you're after the "look", consider various painting techniques to > simulate the appearance of rosewood (see previous paragraph). > > There are many dense attractive wood species. Not long ago, I was > impressed by a tabletop made of plain old Ipe that was buffed to a > glossy finish (no varnish, just good abrasives and some power). Every man should buff his ipe to a glossy finish. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 25 16:01:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 25 16:23:21 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 14:23:21 -0700 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F6F8CC9.8050509@att.net> and to totally stay in character, it needs to be vintage lead based paint as well...... On 3/25/2012 2:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, > inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? > > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 25 16:24:59 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 14:24:59 -0700 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, > inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? With radium paint for the trim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 16:48:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:48:44 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 05:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, >> inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? > With radium paint for the trim. ...applied with tiny brushes licked by women working in sweatshop conditions. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 25 17:00:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> > >> Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, > >> inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? > > With radium paint for the trim. > ...applied with tiny brushes licked by women working in sweatshop > conditions. Is that radium paint available in a whale-oil base? And then replace the innards with a Dell motherboard? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 25 17:01:13 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 23:01:13 +0100 Subject: Cable for RX50 In-Reply-To: <02f801cd0a04$ddda9890$998fc9b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02e401cd09ce$9e0e1b50$da2a51f0$@ntlworld.com> <54F7602220EF40B7825A502DC694D33F@ANTONIOPC> <02e901cd09e4$dcab4de0$9601e9a0$@ntlworld.com> <02ed01cd09f8$4ab3d010$e01b7030$@ntlworld.com> <4F6E3067.5040006@neurotica.com> <02f801cd0a04$ddda9890$998fc9b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000e01cd0ad2$cd104d60$6730e820$@ntlworld.com> > > However, VMS is only recognising one of the two drives in the RX50. Apart > from any possible faults in the drive, cable, distribution board etc, is there > any config needed on the drive itself, bearing in mind that this is in a BA123 > with an M9058 distribution board? > > I have two hard disks in the machine, which are being recognised as DUA0 > and DUA1, I have DUA2 as one of the RX50s (the one on the right when it > oriented vertically, it would be the bottom one if it was horizontal), but no > DUA3. > There is some confusing wording in the RQDX3 docs which suggests the > drives are numbered automatically by the M9058, but then it says to be > careful with the config in the drive to avoid conflicts. I resolved the problem of VMS only seeing one RX50. I had plugged one of the hard disks into the connector on the upper half of the distribution board. This seemed to conflict with the RX50, connecting the two hard disk to the connectors furthest from the RX50 connector resolved it. Regards Rob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Mar 25 17:15:15 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And then replace the innards with a Dell motherboard? Now, now. Joking is all very well, but _that_'s just uncivilized. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 17:21:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:21:00 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F6F9A4C.2080502@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 06:15 PM, Mouse wrote: >> And then replace the innards with a Dell motherboard? > > Now, now. Joking is all very well, but _that_'s just uncivilized. ROFL! :-) :-) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 25 17:28:07 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:28:07 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F6F9BF7.30608@telegraphics.com.au> On 25/03/12 5:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/25/2012 05:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, >>> inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? >> With radium paint for the trim. > > ...applied with tiny brushes licked by women working in sweatshop > conditions. > Well that's pretty much guaranteed. --T From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 25 18:54:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F6F8058.3050608@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F8058.3050608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/25/2012 12:35 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels. Forests around >>> the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. >>> >> Agreed. Baby seal skin looks SO much nicer anyway. > > But they have to be clubbed. Better pattern that way. > Ah, of course! I suspect you'll get a better grain with an Ash bat vs one of those silly aluminum "bongers". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 25 18:57:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6F8CC9.8050509@att.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8CC9.8050509@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > and to totally stay in character, it needs to be vintage lead based paint as > well...... > Don't forget to mix delicately with the tears extracted from the VP of Quality Assurance at Microsoft. Wait, it would be easier to get ground Unicorn horn... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 19:02:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 20:02:03 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F8058.3050608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F6FB1FB.5060205@neurotica.com> On 03/25/2012 07:54 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels. Forests around >>>> the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. >>>> >>> Agreed. Baby seal skin looks SO much nicer anyway. >> >> But they have to be clubbed. Better pattern that way. >> > Ah, of course! I suspect you'll get a better grain with an Ash bat vs > one of those silly aluminum "bongers". :) Yes. They also make a nice bruising pattern. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 25 19:01:50 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: >> And then replace the innards with a Dell motherboard? > > Now, now. Joking is all very well, but _that_'s just uncivilized. Really. Everyone knows a late model Packard Bell board would be a better choice! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Mar 25 19:51:28 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 20:51:28 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net>,<4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com>, <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net>, <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, Message-ID: actually I was thinking more along the lines of a company called MDG.total, absolute, garbage. btw how much would it cost to create an imitation version of this panel, $5, $10 ? > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:01:50 -0700 > From: geneb at deltasoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay > > On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: > > >> And then replace the innards with a Dell motherboard? > > > > Now, now. Joking is all very well, but _that_'s just uncivilized. > > Really. Everyone knows a late model Packard Bell board would be a better > choice! > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 25 20:35:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:35:07 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/16 hardware, and C cross-compilation Message-ID: <4F6FC7CB.6080003@brouhaha.com> After a lot of aggravation trying to get one working TRS-80 Model II, by cobbling together parts from three other machines, I've finally got one mostly working. I wanted to get my own programs running on it, cross-developed on a Linux system. Model II TRSDOS 2.0 and later have a built-in "receive" command that can receive Intel hex format from the serial port, which can then be saved to a disk file with the "dump" command. The serial port on my CPU card was broken. After swapping that card, which I intend to troubleshoot later, I found that the receive command won't work reliably above 2400 bps. (Maybe it would work at higher bit rates if the sending computer used a long inter-character delay.) I packaged up z80asm and z80dasm for Fedora Linux and Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6, and submitted them to the repositories. After verifying that I can get cross-assembled code to run, I set my sights on cross-compiling C code. I had to hack up crt0.s, putchar.s, and a linker script to work for the Model II TRSDOS environment (which is almost entirely unlike TRSDOS for the Model I/III/4), but it is finally working. The machine I've got working is actually a Model 16, but I don't yet have the 68K subsystem working. When I try to load TRSDOS16, it says that it has loaded, but immediately gets an exception at address 0. Xenix just hangs with no output. I've got a diagnostic disk that purports to be for the Model II and 16, but it has a lot of bad tracks, so I can't actually run the Model 16 diagnostics. Does anyone have a good copy of the Model 16 diagnostic disk? The disk drives in the Model 16 don't work. The spindle speed of drive 0 seems to be way off, and I'm not sure what's wrong with drive 1. Right now I'm using two other drives sitting outside the case, because I haven't figured out how to get the drives out of the Model 16. It appears that the machine has to be taken apart much further than I'd hoped in order to remove the drives. :-( Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 25 20:52:18 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:52:18 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/16 hardware, and C cross-compilation In-Reply-To: <4F6FC7CB.6080003@brouhaha.com> References: <4F6FC7CB.6080003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F6F6962.22655.223ECBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Mar 2012 at 18:35, Eric Smith wrote: > After a lot of aggravation trying to get one working TRS-80 Model II, > by cobbling together parts from three other machines, I've finally got > one mostly working. What model disk controller board do you have? If it's the late model one (with both 50 pin/J0 and 34 pin/J3) headers, it's pretty simple to get 3.5" HD drives going on it. I'm not suggesting it as a permanent affair, just eliminating another thing as a potential problem. --Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Mar 25 20:55:43 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 01:55:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DREADFUL PCs Re: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: > >>> And then replace the innards with a Dell motherboard? >> >> Now, now. Joking is all very well, but _that_'s just uncivilized. > > Really. Everyone knows a late model Packard Bell board would be a better > choice! OWW. But to be fair, they made my favorite 72-pin SIMM tester. Sure, they thought it was a computer... but anything more complex than memtest86+ is too good for it. And the BIOS will read out the PD info for you, which is better than most motherboards of that era. More different types of screws than I've ever seen in one chassis... all the expansion ports are on a daughterboard. Ugh. Alexey From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 25 21:08:20 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:08:20 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II/16 hardware, and C cross-compilation In-Reply-To: <4F6F6962.22655.223ECBC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F6FC7CB.6080003@brouhaha.com> <4F6F6962.22655.223ECBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F6FCF94.3040604@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What model disk controller board do you have? If it's the late model > one (with both 50 pin/J0 and 34 pin/J3) headers, it's pretty simple to > get 3.5" HD drives going on it. I'm not suggesting it as a permanent > affair, just eliminating another thing as a potential problem. I haven't kept track of which boards were originally in which machine, but the one I'm using now is the newer board that does have both 50 and 34 connectors. I'm currently using to external slimline 8" drives, a Mitsubishi M2896-63 as drive 0, and a Qume 242 as drive 1. Of all the 8" drives I had at my immediate disposal, these were the only two that were actually working. I really like the Mitsubishi as a replacement for a full-height drive, because it actually has a head load solenoid. The Qume, like the Tandon TM848-2 that Radio Shack used, wants to keep the heads loaded all the time and start and stop the motor. That's probably better for disk life, but not convenient for replacing a full-height drive that runs the motor continuously and uses a head load solenoid. I'd like to get more half-height drives, Tandon, Mitsubishi, or Qume, but they seem to have become very expensive. I should have bought a lot of them in the early 1990s when they were going for peanuts. For that matter, I wish I'd bought more Teac 3.5-inch floppy drives back when the local stores had new ones for around $12 each. Even those seem to be getting expensive now. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 25 21:32:59 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 20:32:59 -0600 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F6FD55B.1020702@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/25/2012 3:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, > inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic? No... Paint may contain lead ... skip that idea. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 25 21:35:57 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 20:35:57 -0600 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/25/2012 4:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is that radium paint available in a whale-oil base? Well whale-oil was a good thing, It kept mag tapes from going bad from what audio rumors I heard. Did computer tapes suffer from sticky shed problems? Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 25 23:18:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 21:18:24 -0700 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > Well whale-oil was a good thing, That's true, but well whale oil isn't nearly as good as deep sea whale oil. In all but the largest wells, the whales' growth is too limited, and that results in the oil being too thin. In the larger whales, the oil produced is significantly more viscous. Of course, nowadays well whales are very nearly extinct, so well whale oil is pretty hard to get. Most people whose wells have whales keep that fact secret to avoid attention from poachers. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 25 23:42:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 00:42:15 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 12:18 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Well whale-oil was a good thing, > > That's true, but well whale oil isn't nearly as good as deep sea whale > oil. In all but the largest wells, the whales' growth is too limited, > and that results in the oil being too thin. In the larger whales, the > oil produced is significantly more viscous. > > Of course, nowadays well whales are very nearly extinct, so well whale > oil is pretty hard to get. Most people whose wells have whales keep that > fact secret to avoid attention from poachers. This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I am just curious. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 23:54:25 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 21:54:25 -0700 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F6FF681.7080006@gmail.com> Hi all- I have about ~70 boxes (10 disks/box) of NOS 8" Facom floppy disks. I have no idea if they are still good, nor do I know their specs as I have no drive to test them out on. I am willing to send just one disk to any interested parties for them to test out...If you're happy with it and you want more, just let me know. They will be going to the recycler if no one shows any interest. https://plus.google.com/photos/112158735340501596756/albums/5724061190328213809 Shoot me an email if you're interested Thanks. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 00:17:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:17:22 -0700 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: <4F6FF681.7080006@gmail.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com>, <4F6FF681.7080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F6F9972.19149.2DFAC36@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Mar 2012 at 21:54, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: > I have about ~70 boxes (10 disks/box) of NOS 8" Facom floppy disks. I > have no idea if they are still good, nor do I know their specs as I > have no drive to test them out on. I am willing to send just one disk > to any interested parties for them to test out...If you're happy with > it and you want more, just let me know. They will be going to the > recycler if no one shows any interest. > > https://plus.google.com/photos/112158735340501596756/albums/5724061190 > 328213809 > > Shoot me an email if you're interested Kurt, these look like standard 32-sector disks from what I can see (2D, 256-byte record length), but you can verify that by looking to see if there is more than one index hole punched in the "cookie". That is, spin the disk in the jacket a bit and see if you see a bunch of holes appear in the index aperture as you do. A soft-sectored floppy has only one. This can help interested parties determine what you have. --Chuck From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 00:30:12 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:30:12 -0700 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: <4F6F9972.19149.2DFAC36@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com>, <4F6FF681.7080006@gmail.com> <4F6F9972.19149.2DFAC36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F6FFEE4.60505@gmail.com> On 3/25/2012 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Mar 2012 at 21:54, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: > >> I have about ~70 boxes (10 disks/box) of NOS 8" Facom floppy disks. I >> have no idea if they are still good, nor do I know their specs as I >> have no drive to test them out on. I am willing to send just one disk >> to any interested parties for them to test out...If you're happy with >> it and you want more, just let me know. They will be going to the >> recycler if no one shows any interest. >> >> https://plus.google.com/photos/112158735340501596756/albums/5724061190 >> 328213809 >> >> Shoot me an email if you're interested > Kurt, these look like standard 32-sector disks from what I can see > (2D, 256-byte record length), but you can verify that by looking to > see if there is more than one index hole punched in the "cookie". > That is, spin the disk in the jacket a bit and see if you see a bunch > of holes appear in the index aperture as you do. A soft-sectored > floppy has only one. > > This can help interested parties determine what you have. > > --Chuck > > Thanks Chuck! Yes, it looks like they are soft-sectored floppies per your explanation. Only one hole in the "cookie"... -Kurt From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 00:43:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:43:50 -0700 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: <4F6FFEE4.60505@gmail.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4F6F9972.19149.2DFAC36@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F6FFEE4.60505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F6F9FA6.31381.2F7E61E@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Mar 2012 at 22:30, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: > Yes, it looks like they are soft-sectored floppies per your > explanation. Only one hole in the "cookie"... Great--it looks like you'll have some takers. 8" SS media is getting harder to find. Your location might help. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Mar 26 01:47:02 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 07:47:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F6F809B.7080508@neurotica.com> References: <1332706769.88435.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F809B.7080508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <179B37C84E654E76BADF448ABCDE0C67@Edicons.local> The North Star Horizon had a wood (plywood I think) upper case. Which remindes me I'm still looking for a Northstar in the UK. ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 25 March 2012 21:31 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8 questions On 03/25/2012 04:19 PM, William Maddox wrote: > The panels on the front of a rack-mount straight-8 are > plastic laminate. It was not unknown, however, for DEC > to use real wood in the cabinetry -- I have several > examples of blank painted wooden panels that hang on the > front of a rack and are held to it by magnetic latches. I have some internal DEC prototypes of the BA123, called the "woody box", that have solid oak tops. They are beautiful. I'll take pics of them soon; they'll be in the next truckload coming up from FL. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Mar 26 02:18:12 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 08:18:12 +0100 Subject: DREADFUL PCs Re: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <201203252215.SAA29666@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 26 March 2012 02:55, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > OWW. But to be fair, they made my favorite 72-pin SIMM tester. Sure, they > thought it was a computer... but anything more complex than memtest86+ is > too good for it. And the BIOS will read out the PD info for you, which is > better than most motherboards of that era. More different types of screws > than I've ever seen in one chassis... all the expansion ports are on a > daughterboard. Ugh. > Umm... I remember working with a Commodore-branded PC, early 1990s. 486 Era I think. System itself was adequate, but to get at the motherboard, or even just swap the hard disc, you had to disassemble most of the bloody thing. At least one screw on every part in the box seemed to be hidden behind something else. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 26 07:38:18 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 07:38:18 -0500 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:42 PM 3/25/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I am just curious. Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. - John From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Mar 26 08:08:10 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:08:10 +0100 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F706A3A.7010106@philpem.me.uk> On 26/03/12 13:38, John Foust wrote: > At 11:42 PM 3/25/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I am just curious. > > Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. And ten points to each of you for a much needed ROFL on an otherwise boring work day :) But now my colleagues think I'm mad. Although I doubt that's anything new! Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Mar 26 09:18:40 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:18:40 +0200 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90, Reset Problems... Message-ID: <20120326141840.GC78831@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, at the Weekend I've got an Vaxstation 4000/90 with 64MB RAM and a 2,1GB Disc from a friend. Powered it up today and found a Problem. The Machine doesn't start properly if it is switched on, the LEDs are all stuck on (0xff). If I switch it off then and on again in a short time, it starts up properly, is doing the diagnostics and tries to boot an (defective?) NetBSD 1.1 that is loading the kernel but is getting then in a ?54 RETRY loop. Pressing the HALT Switch brings up the chevron... havn't tried to install something jet... Is that Error with the Reset/Startup known to someone here? I think it could be an dead capacitor in the PSU... Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 08:32:50 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:32:50 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?Richard > Date:?Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:21:06 -0600 > Subject:?Re: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics >> > From: Richard >> > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:24:15 -0600 >> >> > however. ?Do you have documentation on them? ?User manuals? Service >> > manuals? >> >> We have boxes and boxes and boxes of documentation and spares. > > Any chance those can be scanned and put online for me to look at? We know where the boxes of documentation are so we can look for manuals that describe the capabilities of the systems. If we have duplicate manuals we could send them to Al to be scanned. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 08:37:46 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:37:46 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?Nick Allen > Date:?Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:15:02 -0500 > Subject:?PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay > PIXAR's first computer used to make portions of the 3d short (Red's Dream) is now on Ebay (wife refuses to let me keep it and hang it on our wall). > > Thought you might be interested in it, here is the link: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIXAR-Image-Computer-Panel-Framed-Museum-Piece-RARE-Steve-Jobs-Apple-Vintage-/270942048213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15678fd5#ht_500wt_1262 We have a system with what I think is the same from panel at the RICM. I will take some pictures next weekend and put them on the RICM WWW page. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 08:42:22 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:42:22 -0400 Subject: Wang 2200 MVP Message-ID: > JC White wrote: > >>Until a few years ago I had a Wang 2200 MVP.? When I was using it in my high school classroom an administrator had the room cleaned and moved the system outside.? A sudden storm destroyed the CPU and drives.? I have several working Wang 2236 terminals if somebody has a need for one.? Also, I would like to locate a 2200 MVP to play with again.? I am also looking for homes for a pair of Wang PCs from about 1990, two different models, one set up for networking. >> >>John We have a Wang 2200 VP, and another 2200 that I don't know the the version. Unfortunately, one of our members is always looking for more Wang equipment so we have lots of Wang equipment. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/wang-computer-gallery-2/wang-gallery-models -- Michael Thompson From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Mar 26 08:56:13 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 08:56:13 -0500 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> My bad, I meant to post the PIXAR Image Computer "PANEL" is on ebay. Hope the price doesn't offend anyone, to be honest I have more into it than I am asking for =( On 24/03/12 11:15 AM, Nick Allen wrote: >/ PIXAR's first computer used to make portions of the 3d short (Red's / ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hate to quibble, but where's the computer? --T >/ Dream) is now on Ebay (wife refuses to let me keep it and hang it on our />/ wall). />/ />/ Thought you might be interested in it, here is the link: />/ />/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIXAR-Image-Computer-Panel-Framed-Museum-Piece-RARE-Steve-Jobs-Apple-Vintage-/270942048213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f15678fd5#ht_500wt_1262 />/ > />/ />/ / From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 11:09:33 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:09:33 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> Message-ID: Is there any documentation on the bona fides of the panel? I see it's framed with a blurb about Red's Dream, but is there a serial number or manufacturing certificate or something? If it's being priced as a collectable some sort of documentation should come with it, I think. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 26 11:43:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120326094233.H86612@shell.lmi.net> > >> Well whale-oil was a good thing, > On 03/26/2012 12:18 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > That's true, but well whale oil isn't nearly as good as deep sea whale > > . . . > > Of course, nowadays well whales are very nearly extinct, so well whale > > oil is pretty hard to get. Most people whose wells have whales keep that > > fact secret to avoid attention from poachers. > On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've > ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I > am just curious. How deep is your well? From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Mon Mar 26 11:45:46 2012 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:45:46 -0700 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: <4F6FF681.7080006@gmail.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF681.7080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok....Due to the unexpected high demand of these disks, I want to give everyone an equal shot....ie, Im not going to send them all to any one person at this point in time. Here is what I want to do.... Requests for 3 boxes or less get priority. 3 boxes will be $20 (includes $15.49 USPS flat rate shipping + gas money and post office hassle, etc). Easiest for me... For anyone that wants 5 or more boxes, I will have to buy a shipping box and figure out shipping, etc, so I want to ask a few bucks extra over the shipping. Please tell me exactly how many you want to make the shipping calculations easier. For those of you that want "as many as I can get", I will divide whatever I have left over at the end of the week equally amongst those parties, unless you stipulate exactly how many you want now... I am going to wait through the end of the week to gather everyones requests and then finalize things over the weekend. Sorry for the delay and for taking a while to get back. Ok, now back to work... :) -Kurt On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: > Hi all- > > I have about ~70 boxes (10 disks/box) of NOS 8" Facom floppy disks. I have > no idea if they are still good, nor do I know their specs as I have no drive > to test them out on. I am willing to send just one disk to any interested > parties for them to test out...If you're happy with it and you want more, > just let me know. They will be going to the recycler if no one shows any > interest. > > https://plus.google.com/photos/112158735340501596756/albums/5724061190328213809 > > Shoot me an email if you're interested > > Thanks. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Mar 26 11:45:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:45:49 +0200 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90, Reset Problems... In-Reply-To: <20120326141840.GC78831@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120326141840.GC78831@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120326164549.GA99257@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > at the Weekend I've got an Vaxstation 4000/90 with 64MB RAM and a > 2,1GB Disc from a friend. > Powered it up today and found a Problem. > The Machine doesn't start properly if it is switched on, the LEDs are all > stuck on (0xff). If I switch it off then and on again in a short time, it > starts up properly, is doing the diagnostics and tries to boot an > (defective?) NetBSD 1.1 that is loading the kernel but is getting then in a > ?54 RETRY loop. > Pressing the HALT Switch brings up the chevron... havn't tried to install > something jet... > > Is that Error with the Reset/Startup known to someone here? I think it > could be an dead capacitor in the PSU... > > Kind Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 Ok, answering myself: Yes this error is already known, found a thread in comp.sys.dec. The cause ist an empty lithium cell in the DS1287A RTC. Used a proxxon grindng tool and grinded the IC housing of, replaced the empty cell (1,07V) with an soldered on CR2016. Works now. The RTC was unable to remember the "set bootdev dka0" over a powercycle. Next question: Does anyone have the wiring of the DEC 29-24795 serial loopback connector to be used to set the DIAGENV to higher that 1 on an VS4000? Regiards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 11:59:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:59:51 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F703E17.1554.40FA37@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2012 at 9:37, Michael Thompson wrote: > We have a system with what I think is the same from panel at the RICM. > I will take some pictures next weekend and put them on the RICM WWW > page. I wonder if this isn't just a commemorative piece; in other words, just a display bit run off as a memento. If you're doing vacuum molding, it's just as expensive to run off 500 pieces as it is 10. Sort of like those Intel bare-die keyring fobs that were passed out as freebies by the sales force. Was this particular piece ever a part of a real Pixar processor? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 26 12:15:23 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:15:23 -0600 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <4F703E17.1554.40FA37@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F703E17.1554.40FA37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F70A42B.3030300@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/26/2012 10:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Mar 2012 at 9:37, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> We have a system with what I think is the same from panel at the RICM. >> I will take some pictures next weekend and put them on the RICM WWW >> page. > > I wonder if this isn't just a commemorative piece; in other words, > just a display bit run off as a memento. If you're doing vacuum > molding, it's just as expensive to run off 500 pieces as it is 10. > Sort of like those Intel bare-die keyring fobs that were passed out > as freebies by the sales force. Those were the working chips.. the ones with bugs got sold to IBM. :) > > --Chuck > From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 26 12:52:07 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:52:07 -0500 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay References: Message-ID: <0EF97BD7E5B0438BAE72F890A553B0B0@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 00:42:15 -0400 From: Dave McGuire >> Of course, nowadays well whales are very nearly extinct... > This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've > ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I > am just curious. -Dave ----- So am I, and also pleasantly surprised; I was under the impression that well whales had been completely extinct for at least thirty years. m From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 26 13:01:31 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:01:31 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <4F703E17.1554.40FA37@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F703E17.1554.40FA37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F70AEFB.3030508@bitsavers.org> On 3/26/12 9:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're doing vacuum > molding, it's just as expensive to run off 500 pieces as it is 10. > If we're talking about the Pixar front plate, it is cast, probably pot metal. The granite grey textured paint they used makes it look like a tombstone. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 26 13:08:56 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, John Foust wrote: > At 11:42 PM 3/25/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I am just curious. > > Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. > Dammit John, you were supposed to let him string him along more! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 13:19:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:19:37 -0700 Subject: PIXAR, Re: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <4F70AEFB.3030508@bitsavers.org> References: , <4F703E17.1554.40FA37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F70AEFB.3030508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F7050C9.30998.8A01A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2012 at 11:01, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/26/12 9:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you're doing vacuum > > molding, it's just as expensive to run off 500 pieces as it is 10. > If we're talking about the Pixar front plate, it is cast, probably pot > metal. The granite grey textured paint they used makes it look like a > tombstone. Thanks for the correction. Still, it's the die/mold-making that really costs. Running off a few extras for keepsakes isn't that big a deal. Is there any sort of certification that connects a faceplate with a give machine serial number? Provenance means a lot if what's be peddled is for "historic" value. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 26 13:23:34 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:23:34 -0600 Subject: Computer Graphics Museum collection pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > > Any chance those can be scanned and put online for me to look at? > > We know where the boxes of documentation are so we can look for > manuals that describe the capabilities of the systems. If we have > duplicate manuals we could send them to Al to be scanned. Al is really busy. If you send them to me, I can scan them to bitsavers specifications. Email me privately for contact info. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 26 14:24:06 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:24:06 -0700 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F706A3A.7010106@philpem.me.uk> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> <4F706A3A.7010106@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F70C256.5080809@brouhaha.com> > But now my colleagues think I'm mad. Although I doubt that's anything new! "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us are. It's very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad." -- "Speak to Me", _The Dark Side of the Moon_, Pink Floyd From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 26 14:30:14 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F70C256.5080809@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Mar 26, 12 12:24:06 pm" Message-ID: <201203261930.q2QJUEsB12452006@floodgap.com> > > But now my colleagues think I'm mad. Although I doubt that's anything new! > "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us are. > It's very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad." > -- "Speak to Me", _The Dark Side of the Moon_, Pink Floyd I've been mad for f... well, you know. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God will pardon me. It's His business. -- Heinrich Heine ------------------- From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Mar 26 14:31:05 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 20:31:05 +0100 Subject: "Art" Message-ID: http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to *Sobs* From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 26 13:40:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:40:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F6F08DE.2634.AAEC97@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 25, 12 12:00:30 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 Mar 2012 at 10:40, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels.=A0=A0 Forests aro= > und > > > the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. > >=20 > > There is plenty of old rosewood kicking around, from scrapped > > furniture. Not super cheap, but available. > > ...and plenty of fake "rosewood", going back to the 19th century as=20 > well as being present on many cheap Chinese knockoff guitar models,=20 > so if you go the used route, be very careful. > > If you're after the "look", consider various painting techniques to=20 > simulate the appearance of rosewood (see previous paragraph). I thnik if I was in this position, I'd want to use whatever was used originally by DEC. If thst was genuine rosewood (and so far I've not seen a definite statement that it was), then (alas for the 'greens') that's what I would try to get. I don't think the amount needed to repair _one_ PDP8 would do that much ecological damage.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 26 13:44:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:44:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F6F801F.2070705@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 25, 12 04:29:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/25/2012 10:33 AM, James Gessling wrote: > > Please don't use real rosewood for the side panels. Forests around > > the world are being destroyed for this increasingly rare commodity. > > You've gotta be kidding. Are you concerned that he's going to start > a run on rosewood for all the remaining Straight-8s in the world, and > that dozen or so machines will decimate the world's remaining rosewood? That's my view too... OK, if there were only a few such trees still growing _and nobody was cutting them down_, I probably wouldn't want to cut one down to get the wood. But if there is already some sort of trade in said wood, I don;'t feel the maount needed to make a straight-8 cover will make much differece. I would certainly consider second-hand rosewood, I feel restoring a straight-8 is at least as good a use for it as any other :-) > > [shakes head] > > No. USE real rosewood for the side panels. Straight-8s don't grow > on trees, wheres rosewood, well, pretty much does! This reminds me of a cartoon that I saw in a UK computing magazineb over 30 years ago. It was a father talking to his son, and the caption read : 'No I am not buying you a computer for Christmas. You seem to think Apples grow on trees' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 26 13:56:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:56:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: DREADFUL PCs Re: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Mar 26, 12 08:18:12 am Message-ID: > > OWW. But to be fair, they made my favorite 72-pin SIMM tester. Sure, they > > thought it was a computer... but anything more complex than memtest86+ is > > too good for it. And the BIOS will read out the PD info for you, which is > > better than most motherboards of that era. More different types of screws > > than I've ever seen in one chassis... all the expansion ports are on a I seem to rememebr needing Bristol Spline tools to take my IBM5155 apart. That;s just about the only modern-ish thing I've eneded them for (they are also nseded for the setscrews in my Flexowriter). > > daughterboard. Ugh. > > > > Umm... I remember working with a Commodore-branded PC, early 1990s. > 486 Era I think. System itself was adequate, but to get at the > motherboard, or even just swap the hard disc, you had to disassemble > most of the bloody thing. At least one screw on every part in the box > seemed to be hidden behind something else. I think it;'s time to restate 'ARDs law of DECSA construction' : 'The lower the importance of a part of a DECSA, the more screws hold it in place'. This is demonstrated by the fact that : The logic PCBs plug in to hex-hieght slots with no screws The PSUs are held in by 2 screws each The fan tray is held on by 4 screws The grille over the fan tray is held on by ... 28 screws. I counted them all out and back. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 26 13:59:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:59:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F706A3A.7010106@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Mar 26, 12 02:08:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 26/03/12 13:38, John Foust wrote: > > At 11:42 PM 3/25/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? I am just curious. > > > > Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. I am amazed that anyone _didn't_ spot it as a spoof at first reading. > > And ten points to each of you for a much needed ROFL on an otherwise > boring work day :) > > But now my colleagues think I'm mad. Although I doubt that's anything new! You mean there's a cahnce they may not have thoguht you to be mad. I am worried... Philip (Belben) once introedcued me by saying 'When you first meet TOny, you may think he's mildly eccentric. When you get to know hi, you will realise there's nothing minor about his eccentricites'. I regard that as a high honour. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 14:45:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:45:26 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F70C756.3020301@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 08:38 AM, John Foust wrote: >> This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information >> I've ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know >> about this? I am just curious. > > Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. Aww DAMN. [slinks back to coding] -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 14:46:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:46:52 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332701428.20193.YahooMailNeo@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F6F80E7.10404@neurotica.com> <20120325135910.S53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6F8D2B.4010906@brouhaha.com> <4F6F92BC.2040201@neurotica.com> <20120325145749.M53053@shell.lmi.net> <4F6FD60D.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F6FEE10.3020505@brouhaha.com> <4F6FF3A7.3000600@neurotica.com> <201203261238.q2QCcP6G033661@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F70C7AC.50808@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 02:08 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, John Foust wrote: > >> At 11:42 PM 3/25/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> This is one of the most bizarrely obscure tidbits of information I've >>> ever seen come across this list. How do you come to know about this? >>> I am just curious. >> >> Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. >> > Dammit John, you were supposed to let him string him along more! :) Damn. That's all I've got to say. DAMN. ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 14:50:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:50:50 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 09:56 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > My bad, I meant to post the PIXAR Image Computer "PANEL" is on ebay. > > Hope the price doesn't offend anyone, to be honest I have more into it > than I am asking for =( You spent more than $1K on the (almost completely featureless) front panel and its frame? You got screwed. I seriously think you need to grow a pair and tell the wife you're keeping it, unless you fancy explaining to that very same wife how you dropped more than $1K on a front cover and then sold it for twenty bucks. [shakes head] -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 14:57:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:57:33 -0400 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F70CA2D.705@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 03:31 PM, Rob wrote: > http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to > > *Sobs* *spit* -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Mar 26 15:22:39 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:22:39 +0200 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. Message-ID: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> Hopefully for someone in Europe interesting. There is a storage Hall with some old computer content in Dortmund/Germany. Please look here: http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8155 and here: http://www.robotrontechnik.de/system/foto.php?dir=Computersammlung Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 15:34:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 13:34:36 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <4F6F08DE.2634.AAEC97@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 25, 12 12:00:30 pm, Message-ID: <4F70706C.32273.105939F@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2012 at 19:40, Tony Duell wrote: > I thnik if I was in this position, I'd want to use whatever was used > originally by DEC. If thst was genuine rosewood (and so far I've not > seen a definite statement that it was), then (alas for the 'greens') > that's what I would try to get. I don't think the amount needed to > repair _one_ PDP8 would do that much ecological damage.... To be fair, there are many types of rosewood, not all of which are over-harvested. I used to build birdhouses out of teak because I had a ready source of scrap from a furniture maker. Heavy things, but very durable. Bugs and woodpeckers wouldn't touch them. I don't know what the appearance of an original "rosewood" PDP-8 side panel was, but it's possible that it was only a veneer over a simple base material. The veneer is comparatively inexpensive compared to a dimenional plank of the same size. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 15:53:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:53:14 -0400 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 04:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hopefully for someone in Europe interesting. > There is a storage Hall with some old computer content in > Dortmund/Germany. > > Please look here: > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8155 > and here: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/system/foto.php?dir=Computersammlung SOME old computer content!? Dear God, that's the mother lode! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 26 16:00:02 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:00:02 -0700 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F70CA2D.705@neurotica.com> References: <4F70CA2D.705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F70D8D2.1010002@jwsss.com> On 3/26/2012 12:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/26/2012 03:31 PM, Rob wrote: >> http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to >> >> >> *Sobs* > > *spit* > I just watched a show last night with the term SteamPunk in it. You have no idea what obscene things await artifacts. I'm sure they will get around to it. Jim From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Mar 26 16:08:02 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/26/2012 04:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Hopefully for someone in Europe interesting. >> There is a storage Hall with some old computer content in >> Dortmund/Germany. >> >> Please look here: >> http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8155 >> and here: >> >> http://www.robotrontechnik.de/system/foto.php?dir=Computersammlung > > SOME old computer content!? Dear God, that's the mother lode! I'll say. I spy a HP 3000 Series 30 and a 7970 tape drive. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 26 16:14:21 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:14:21 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Mar 26 16:31:45 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:31:45 +0200 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 08:31:05PM +0100, Rob wrote: > http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to > > *Sobs* "these platters are very scarce" so of course he/she/it had to help the scarcity along by destroying a few more. Barbarian. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 26 16:50:58 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:50:58 +0100 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 26 March 2012 21:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: HELP...please help to save something of this.. > > On 03/26/2012 04:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hopefully for someone in Europe interesting. > > There is a storage Hall with some old computer content in > > Dortmund/Germany. > > > > Please look here: > > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid= > 8 > > 155 > > and here: > > > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/system/foto.php?dir=Computersammlung > > SOME old computer content!? Dear God, that's the mother lode! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA There is a ton of stuff there, quite a lot that I am not really familiar with. There are certainly some items I would be interested in, but more than I have room for. Is anyone able to ship any of the smaller items I am interested in to the UK? I wouldn't mind the teletype either, I really want one of those, but shipping that would be prohibitive and it looks to be in very poor condition. Regards Rob From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 16:54:26 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:54:26 -0500 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: hopefully it was a dead one On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 08:31:05PM +0100, Rob wrote: > > > http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to > > > > *Sobs* > > "these platters are very scarce" so of course he/she/it had to help the > scarcity along by destroying a few more. > > Barbarian. > > Kind regards, > Alex. > -- > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 26 16:57:36 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:57:36 -0400 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F70E650.5000705@atarimuseum.com> "Fewer and fewer exist".... Yes, and more would exist if freak ass "artists" would stop butchering them and turning them into crap :-/ Rob wrote: > http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to > > *Sobs* > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 26 16:59:35 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:59:35 -0400 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4F70E6C7.1000703@atarimuseum.com> No... wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if it was a working pull, just out of an active environment, it was wheeled out and the torches and sawz all's didn't go right to work on it.... Adrian Stoness wrote: > hopefully it was a dead one > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > >> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 08:31:05PM +0100, Rob wrote: >> >> http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to >> >>> *Sobs* >>> >> "these platters are very scarce" so of course he/she/it had to help the >> scarcity along by destroying a few more. >> >> Barbarian. >> >> Kind regards, >> Alex. >> -- >> "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and >> looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison >> >> > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 16:58:06 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:58:06 +0100 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> On 26/03/2012 22:31, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 08:31:05PM +0100, Rob wrote: >> http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to >> >> *Sobs* > "these platters are very scarce" so of course he/she/it had to help the > scarcity along by destroying a few more. > > Barbarian. > > Kind regards, > Alex. I thought I had seen (and bought) some stupid things in my life put that takes the biscuit. Its hidious! Those ghastly bits of modern surface mount PCB with the numbers on. If you want an IBM clock (and IBM once made many clocks) get one of these:- http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/home-and-office/office/clock-wall/ibm-clock-1.html althought even more expensive than hack Dave G4UGM From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 26 17:22:32 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:22:32 -0600 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks cool to me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 26 17:31:30 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:31:30 -0700 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:31 PM +0100 3/26/12, Rob wrote: >http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to > >*Sobs* Has anyone stopped to think that security requirements likely necessitate the destruction of the Pack? Such was the case with the platter I have that was turned into a plaque. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 26 17:52:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:52:18 -0700 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F70F322.4010200@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Has anyone stopped to think that security requirements likely > necessitate the destruction of the Pack? Such was the case with the > platter I have that was turned into a plaque. For security requirements, taking a platter out of the pack is neither necessary nor sufficient. If the platter had been taken out and the oxide sanded off or otherwise removed... From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 17:53:32 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:53:32 -0700 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F70F36C.2040502@gmail.com> This one eBay is original and probably goes for less. Although who knows what IBM clocks go for on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1950s-1960s-IBM-Round-Office-Style-Wall-Clock-Double-Sided-Industrial-/140729998272 On 3/26/2012 2:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > I thought I had seen (and bought) some stupid things in my life put > that takes the biscuit. Its hidious! Those ghastly bits of modern > surface mount PCB with the numbers on. > If you want an IBM clock (and IBM once made many clocks) get one of > these:- > > http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/home-and-office/office/clock-wall/ibm-clock-1.html > > > althought even more expensive than hack > > Dave > G4UGM From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 18:04:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:04:29 -0400 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F70F36C.2040502@gmail.com> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> <4F70F36C.2040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F70F5FD.3090209@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 06:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This one eBay is original and probably goes for less. Although who knows > what IBM clocks go for on ebay. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1950s-1960s-IBM-Round-Office-Style-Wall-Clock-Double-Sided-Industrial-/140729998272 I bid on that just this morning. :) It'll make a nice wall clock for the museum. I hope to be able to get it running. If it's a slave clock, I'll have to design a driver for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 26 18:08:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F70F322.4010200@brouhaha.com> References: <4F70F322.4010200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120326160454.X93676@shell.lmi.net> If it were 5.25" or smaller, then None of the techniques of destruction would be as effective for avoiding unauthorized reading of the disk as labelling it "Windows 3.1" and putting it into a Packard-Bell case. Then it could sit on a shelf in plain sight. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 26 18:25:49 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:25:49 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F70FAFD.3020201@jwsss.com> On 3/26/2012 2:50 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > SOME old computer content!? Dear God, that's the mother lode! > > > > -Dave Honeywell Level 6 http://www.robotrontechnik.de/bilder/Galerien/Computersammlung/Computersammlung_067.jpg http://www.robotrontechnik.de/bilder/Galerien/Computersammlung/Computersammlung_068.jpg Somewhere I have GCOS for this system, plus if it is an Ultimate system, software for that too. Probably goes with some of the CDC drives General Automation 18/30 http://www.robotrontechnik.de/bilder/Galerien/Computersammlung/Computersammlung_171.jpg http://www.robotrontechnik.de/bilder/Galerien/Computersammlung/Computersammlung_235.jpg http://www.robotrontechnik.de/bilder/Galerien/Computersammlung/Computersammlung_234.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 26 18:48:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:48:25 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F70FAFD.3020201@jwsss.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de>, <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com>, <4F70FAFD.3020201@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F709DD9.13527.1B72785@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Mar 2012 at 16:25, jim s wrote: > Probably goes with some of the CDC drives I note the CDC 604 tape drive present--a big, built-like-a-battleship 60's era 7-track tape drive. But even if you got it working, what would you connect it to? Other various tidbits, including a CDC 841 MDD, but again, where does the other end of the data cable go? --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Mar 26 18:57:11 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:57:11 -0700 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F70F5FD.3090209@neurotica.com> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> <4F70F36C.2040502@gmail.com> <4F70F5FD.3090209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F710257.9080605@mail.msu.edu> On 3/26/2012 4:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/26/2012 06:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> This one eBay is original and probably goes for less. Although who knows >> what IBM clocks go for on ebay. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1950s-1960s-IBM-Round-Office-Style-Wall-Clock-Double-Sided-Industrial-/140729998272 >> > > I bid on that just this morning. :) It'll make a nice wall clock > for the museum. I hope to be able to get it running. If it's a slave > clock, I'll have to design a driver for it. Anything with a second hand on it like that one will usually run fine off of regular AC; it probably has hardware to allow it to sync with a master clock near the top of the hour, but it's in no way required to run the clock as just a standard clock. - Josh > > -Dave > From jgessling at yahoo.com Mon Mar 26 19:23:40 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OK, so you've had a lot of fun on this.? Is it too much to ask that you think about what materials you are using?? Search for Madagascar and Rosewood and maybe see that this is a real issue.? To put my? foot in it, my daughter is living there and the destruction of the forest is just horrendous.? Remember those cute Lemurs?? Will be gone soon without a forest to live it. Apologies for going way off topic.? But as I said, would it hurt you to understand where your materials are coming from?? How about living on this earth? I know this will never convince some of you, but I feel better for saying it. Regards, Jim ________________________________ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 26 19:32:22 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:32:22 -0600 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Some items I saw: Tek 4016 is a 25-inch storage tube EAI 2000 is from 1977 Eurobee FT 10 Some kind of Beehive terminal from Beehive Ireland, for European markets only. Calcomp 925 plotter (the big one) Calcomp 905 (probably a plotter controller or some such) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 26 19:35:58 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:35:58 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F709DD9.13527.1B72785@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de>, <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com>, <4F70FAFD.3020201@jwsss.com> <4F709DD9.13527.1B72785@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F710B6E.10405@jwsss.com> On 3/26/2012 4:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Probably goes with some of the CDC drives > I note the CDC 604 tape drive present--a big, built-like-a-battleship > 60's era 7-track tape drive. But even if you got it working, what > would you connect it to? > > Other various tidbits, including a CDC 841 MDD, but again, where does > the other end of the data cable go? > > --Chuck > > The Level 6 would have interfaced to FSD or EMD drives, of the 8" variety, or the regular SMD interface, MMD, CMD, etc., just fine. I looked after I typed, but didn't see any. this is probably a real "level 6" and may or may not have had any peripherals. However the front panel is pretty distinctive, so you know what is in the cage. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 19:46:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 20:46:58 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 08:23 PM, James Gessling wrote: > OK, so you've had a lot of fun on this. Is it too much to ask that > you think about what materials you are using? Search for Madagascar > and Rosewood and maybe see that this > is a real issue. To put my foot in it, my daughter is living there > and the destruction of the forest is just horrendous. Remember those > cute Lemurs? Will be gone soon without a forest to live it. > > Apologies for going way off topic. But as I said, would it hurt you > to understand where your materials are coming from? How about living > on this earth? > > I know this will never convince some of you, but I feel better for > saying it. That's good and all, but that doesn't change the fact that this is completely ludicrous. Nobody is disputing the evilness of the demise of rosewood. What we're talking about here, though, is a very small amount of RECYCLED rosewood for ONE particularly rare (much rarer than rosewood!) computer. And even if that somehow manages to multiply into ALL Straight-8s in existence, we're talking about enough rosewood to make just about one bedroom dresser. If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're (loudly) saying here. I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Mar 26 21:05:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than > restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're > (loudly) saying here. > I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. To a point, I agree. On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's a bad idea to campaign against evil A. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 26 21:20:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:20:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F7123E8.1090900@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 10:05 PM, Mouse wrote: >> If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than >> restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're >> (loudly) saying here. > >> I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. > > To a point, I agree. > > On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's > a bad idea to campaign against evil A. In principle, sure. But we're talking about maybe ten pounds' worth of trees that have already been chopped down, likely 50-100 years ago. I maintain that there is no point to this at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 12:36:47 2012 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 13:36:47 -0400 Subject: Pixar chap docs? Message-ID: And speaking of the Pixar processor --- has anyone ever seen documentation on the Chap? (outside of the well known paper in Siggraph) From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon Mar 26 13:33:17 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 20:33:17 +0200 Subject: another hidden pdp11 Message-ID: <90D7DFBF483C4A57878BAE9C7DA06C0A@Pc12> hello all, yesterday my wife and I emptied our garage(25 years of diverse things stocked inside).I found again my hp1000,I saw a vax8200,a a lot of things that suddenly made me rich :-))etc...and I found something I had totally forgotten ,bought a long time ago as a part of lot bought at the near army base:a Tektronix microprocessor emulation system,made of two (big!!!) racks a 8510 and a 8310.I opened them just to see ,and immediately I saw the two purple dec handles in the 8510.... A lsi 11/2 was here.I brought the rack inside ,removed the dust and spiders, connected to the terminal line labeled 'auxilliary' a VT320 and powered it up,after a few tests,I found the correct speed (2400 bauds) and got the odt, using the run/halt switch of the front panel. I has 32k of ram,the console is at correct place,but the fdc is not at 177170,so I doubt it can boot standart rt11.Unfortunately I found an error in the memory:bit 9 of the first 16k bank is stucked to 1,it may be only a ram chip (4116)to change,the 2nd bank is correct,a few test programs were ok. So if you see such a machine it can be useful. I'd like to find maintenance informations about the Tektronix boards. I'try to repair the mem board,and will continue to play with it. Best regards to all. Alain Nierveze 492 all?e Montesquieu 33290 Le Pian Medoc France nierveze at radio-astronomie.com www.radio-astronomie.com From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 27 02:25:25 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:25:25 +0200 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 03:50:50PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > You got screwed. > Are you sure, this is Pixar early history. The same Pixar that is a mainstream, big budget movie producer familiar to many millions the world over. It also looks like the first version, which I suppose is even more rare than the P-II. Someone will buy this. Regards, Pontus. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 10:30:17 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:30:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F71DD09.4060005@gmail.com> On 03/26/2012 07:23 PM, James Gessling wrote: > Remember those cute > Lemurs? Will be gone soon without a forest to live it. The obvious solution is to turn the lemurs into PDP-8 side panels. ;) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 10:47:48 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: >> If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than >> restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're >> (loudly) saying here. > >> I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. > > To a point, I agree. > > On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's > a bad idea to campaign against evil A. > I think it's more his mind-bogglingly poor choice of venue than the campaign itself. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 27 11:05:54 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:05:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F71DD09.4060005@gmail.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F71DD09.4060005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201203271606.q2RG67JS073047@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:30 AM 3/27/2012, Jules Richardson wrote: >The obvious solution is to turn the lemurs into PDP-8 side panels. ;) The hides, certainly. The meat is pretty good when fried in a little well whale oil. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 11:06:24 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F71DD09.4060005@gmail.com> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F71DD09.4060005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/26/2012 07:23 PM, James Gessling wrote: >> Remember those cute >> Lemurs? Will be gone soon without a forest to live it. > > The obvious solution is to turn the lemurs into PDP-8 side panels. ;) > ...you got to move it, move it! *ahem* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 11:12:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203271606.q2RG67JS073047@billy.ezwind.net> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F71DD09.4060005@gmail.com> <201203271606.q2RG67JS073047@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, John Foust wrote: > At 10:30 AM 3/27/2012, Jules Richardson wrote: >> The obvious solution is to turn the lemurs into PDP-8 side panels. ;) > > The hides, certainly. The meat is pretty good when fried in a little > well whale oil. But make sure it's pure Texas crude from the wide-ranging cetacean fields. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 27 14:46:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:46:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <90D7DFBF483C4A57878BAE9C7DA06C0A@Pc12> from "nierveze" at Mar 26, 12 08:33:17 pm Message-ID: > > hello all, > yesterday my wife and I emptied our garage(25 years of diverse things=20 I hope most of it went abck i nthe garage (or in other suitable accomodation). It sounds like you haev some intersting machiens. > stocked inside).I found again my hp1000,I saw a vax8200,a a lot of things= > =20 > that suddenly made me rich :-))etc...and I > found something I had totally forgotten ,bought a long time ago as a part= > of=20 > lot bought at the near army base:a Tektronix microprocessor emulation=20 > system,made of two (big!!!) racks a 8510 and a 8310.I opened them just to= > =20 > see ,and immediately I saw the two purple dec handles in the 8510.... > A lsi 11/2 was here.I brought the rack inside ,removed the dust and spide= > rs, > connected to the terminal line labeled 'auxilliary' a VT320 and powered i= > t=20 > up,after a few tests,I found the correct speed (2400 bauds) and got the o= > dt, > using the run/halt switch of the front panel. > I has 32k of ram,the console is at correct place,but the fdc is not at=20 > 177170,so I doubt it can boot standart rt11.Unfortunately I found an erro= > r=20 > in the memory:bit 9 of the first 16k bank is stucked to 1,it may be only = > a=20 > ram chip (4116)to change,the 2nd bank is correct,a few test programs were= > =20 > ok. > So if you see such a machine it can be useful. I ahve 2 such systems, I forget the model numbers. The filestore unit of one has 2 floppy drives and an 11/03 processor board. The filestore of the other has one floppy drive, one (Micropolis 1200-series) winchester, and an 11/23 CPU. The former runs something claled TekDOS, which is possibly modified RT11. The later runs TNIX which is essentially unix. > I'd like to find maintenance informations about the Tektronix boards. So would I... I am sure schematics, etc were avaiable at one point, but I've never seen them. I would be possible to reverse-engineer it (after all, you know the pinotus of the CPU board connector so you could fidn the bus signals o nthe Tektronix boards...) but it would be a lot of work. Maybe one day... > I'try to repair the mem board,and will continue to play with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 27 14:56:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:56:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "James Gessling" at Mar 26, 12 05:23:40 pm Message-ID: > > OK, so you've had a lot of fun on this.=A0 Is it too much to ask that you t= > hink about what materials you are using?=A0 Search for Madagascar and Rosew= > ood and maybe see that this =0A=0A=0Ais a real issue.=A0 To put my=A0 foot = > in it, my daughter is living there and the destruction of the forest is jus= > t horrendous.=A0 Remember those cute Lemurs?=A0 Will be gone soon without a= > forest to live it.=0A=0AApologies for going way off topic.=A0 But as I sai= > d, would it hurt you to understand where your materials are coming from?=A0= > How about living on this earth?=0A=0AI know this will never convince some = > of you, but I feel better for saying it.=0A=0ARegards, Jim=0A=0A=0A________= > ________________________ > Do you _seriously_ believe that buying the amount of rosewood to make a cover for one straight-8 will make any difference to the rate of destruction of said forest? -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 15:28:05 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> hello all, >> yesterday my wife and I emptied our garage(25 years of diverse things=20 > > I hope most of it went abck i nthe garage (or in other suitable > accomodation). It sounds like you haev some intersting machiens. > I can only assume that you type with your nose. It's the only thing that would explain that mess. Either that or you've got the equivalent to a 2400 baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 27 15:48:28 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 16:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Do you _seriously_ believe that buying the amount of rosewood to make > a cover for one straight-8 will make any difference to the rate of > destruction of said forest? Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth worrying about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves". "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. As I said, I am specifically not weighing in on whether this issue is worth worrying about in this particular case, especially as compared to all the other environmental loads of restoring and running an 8. I'm just pointing out that this particular argument is completely specious. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 27 16:05:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: > Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth worrying > about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the > pounds will take care of themselves". > "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny > little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got > us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. More importantly, it's how Microsoft software ended up as what it is. "It's only a few more bits/clock-cycles" From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 16:13:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:13:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: >> Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth worrying >> about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the >> pounds will take care of themselves". >> "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny >> little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got >> us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. > > More importantly, it's how Microsoft software ended up as what it is. > "It's only a few more bits/clock-cycles" Sure, but how many Straight-8s are there? A handful. This is a self-limiting problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Mar 27 16:23:03 2012 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:23:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 C compiler Message-ID: <0A1DD9D055B64DF0AFDB42E207E28B37@Vincew7> Rather than simply rekindle this annual discussion, I've decided to create a data point. So, you can read about (and download) an experimental PDP-8 C compiler at: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/C/C.php I thought about delaying this notice until the first, but decided that since there really is a compiler of sorts there, that it would be more appropriate to do it now. Comments about the design decisions, improvements for the code, etc. are all welcome. Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 27 16:14:17 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 16:14:17 -0500 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:28 PM 3/27/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: >I can only assume that you type with your nose. It's the only thing that would explain that mess. Either that or you've got the equivalent to a 2400 baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub every afternoon and then comes back to type here. - John From slandon at centurylink.net Tue Mar 27 16:27:43 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:27:43 -0400 Subject: Spring cleaning Computer sale Message-ID: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> Cleaning out guys.. I got the following that needs homes- All prices are plus shipping or Local Pickup from Flushing Michigan 48433. Folks who do local pickup at my door get an even better deal. Mac 512- Pretty Yellow missing floppy drive. Powers up to ? $30 dollars + Shipping 2 Quadra 610s 1 a 610CD, other a Regular 610.. 8MB RAM in both 80 and 160MB HDDs $20 each plus shipping Power Macintosh 6500/275 32MB RAM 2GB HDD. Has TV/Video System with TV/Video System box, TV Tuner and Remote $40 Power Mac 8500/180 16MB RAM 1GB HDD $30 WorkGroup Server 8550 16MB RAM No HDDs or tape drive $20 Macintosh Plus- No keyboard or mouse.. Powers up, then drops to a white line in screen $20 Tandy 486/33 system.. DX266 OverDrive in it. SCSI CD-ROM, SCSI Card, 1GB HDD $30 AST Advantage Adventure 4/33p 16MB RAM 170MB HDD, SB16, CD-ROM. $30 dollars Apple Disk II Drives $20 each Apple 800k External 3.5 Drives $20 each Apple Extended Keyboard IIs- Lots of em $10 each Dayna BlueStreak 10/100 LC Ethernet Cards New In Box $15 each 20 Apple IIGS RGB Monitors $25 each plus shipping 10 Apple Monitor //s $25 each plus shipping 10 Apple //e Systems $20 each without drives & monitor Toshiba Satellite 220CDS- 133mhz Pentium 32MB RAM 1.2GB HDD No ac adapter, comes with spare machine that needs backlight- $30 Toshiba Satellite 330CDS 266mhz Pentium 80MB RAM 4GB HDD, Ethernet Card $50 Zenith 9 inch Green Screen monitor- works Composite input. $10 dollars Tandy 1400HD Laptop.. Will not power up.. Comes with AC Adapter which tested good Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 1 with original owners manuals, cassette player and software $50 dollars Gateway Solo 9500 Laptop- Has AC adapter, 64MB RAM 30GB HDD- Real Serial Port, Floppy Drive and parallel port and usb $20 50 40GB IDE Hard drives $5 dollars each plus shipping 9 80GB IDE Hard Drives $10 dollars each plus shipping I have a storage unit full as well.. Everything from Molar Macs, to Apple //e's to compact macs. Shoot me an email and lets make a deal so I can have my living room back :P Steve Landon Flushing Michigan- Which is 15 mins northwest of Flint Michigan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 27 16:34:43 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:34:43 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Mar 27, at 2:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/27/2012 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth >>> worrying >>> about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and >>> the >>> pounds will take care of themselves". >>> "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny >>> little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly >>> what got >>> us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. >> >> More importantly, it's how Microsoft software ended up as what it is. >> "It's only a few more bits/clock-cycles" > > Sure, but how many Straight-8s are there? A handful. This is a > self-limiting problem. Everyone that wants some [rosewood/whatever] can come up with some excuse for why their particular use is special and worthy ("I had a deprived childhood and now I deserve a rosewood bedroom suite"). If you're going to get it from the market it all adds to demand. And if one subscribes fully to capitalist theory, it doesn't matter if it's old and already harvested: new or old it all fits in one supply- demand equation. Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front panel is one of them - but simply saying 'this is just one little bit, it doesn't matter' isn't an argument. -- If these are the sort of panels at issue: http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ I highly doubt that they are solid rosewood. It was expensive even back then, and solid wood planks have a tendency to warp and crack - not a good idea for fitting to a comparatively precise metal frame. They might be veneer on plywood or particle board, they could be mac- tac stuck on particle board or mac-tac stuck on aluminum. All of those were common in the period, solid wood is about the least likely. I don't know where the original suggestion of rosewood came from, but mahogany, walnut and teak (or simulations thereof) were more common for such purposes in the era. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 16:37:57 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:37:57 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > "Little by little makes a great pile". ?Thinking in the "one tiny > little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got > us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. Also, if you open the door for the restoration of a PDP-8 or two, then the furniture restoration people will want the door opened for them as well. And then the musical instrument people. Then the flooring and panelling people. And so on. As I said, and somehow seems to be being swept under the table, is that rosewood is still available, but scarce and pricey. There is a whole army of guys out there that take apart hopeless furniture (and barns!) to get nice hunks of wood for restorations. It may be worth talking to some of these guys, and getting in line for the wood you want. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 16:41:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:41:01 -0400 Subject: IBM 083 maybe available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a lead on an IBM 083 card sorter, located on the east coast. I > do not know the condition. I had hoped it was an 084, but no such > luck, and I already have two 083s. Any interest out there? Prod, prod. Razorblades by May. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 16:51:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:51:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front panel is one > of them I would bet that restoring a PDP-8 would be way down on the public's list of worthy uses, compared to, for example, restoring a beat up antique Gibson. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 16:52:02 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:52:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 27 March 2012 22:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-8 questions > > > On 2012 Mar 27, at 2:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 03/27/2012 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: > >>> Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth > >>> worrying > >>> about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the > pence and > >>> the > >>> pounds will take care of themselves". > >>> "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny > >>> little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly > >>> what got > >>> us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. > >> > >> More importantly, it's how Microsoft software ended up as > what it is. > >> "It's only a few more bits/clock-cycles" > > > > Sure, but how many Straight-8s are there? A handful. This is a > > self-limiting problem. > > Everyone that wants some [rosewood/whatever] can come up with some > excuse for why their particular use is special and worthy ("I had a > deprived childhood and now I deserve a rosewood bedroom suite"). If > you're going to get it from the market it all adds to demand. And if > one subscribes fully to capitalist theory, it doesn't matter if it's > old and already harvested: new or old it all fits in one supply- > demand equation. > > Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 > front panel > is one of them - but simply saying 'this is just one little bit, it > doesn't matter' isn't an argument. > Isn't it possible to get sustainable Rosewood? > -- > > If these are the sort of panels at issue: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ > I highly doubt that they are solid rosewood. It was expensive even > back then, and solid wood planks have a tendency to warp and crack - > not a good idea for fitting to a comparatively precise metal frame. > > They might be veneer on plywood or particle board, they could be mac- > tac stuck on particle board or mac-tac stuck on aluminum. All of > those were common in the period, solid wood is about the least likely. > > I don't know where the original suggestion of rosewood came > from, but > mahogany, walnut and teak (or simulations thereof) were more common > for such purposes in the era. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 16:54:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:54:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 05:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth worrying >>>> about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the >>>> pounds will take care of themselves". >>>> "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny >>>> little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got >>>> us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. >>> >>> More importantly, it's how Microsoft software ended up as what it is. >>> "It's only a few more bits/clock-cycles" >> >> Sure, but how many Straight-8s are there? A handful. This is a >> self-limiting problem. > > Everyone that wants some [rosewood/whatever] can come up with some > excuse for why their particular use is special and worthy ("I had a > deprived childhood and now I deserve a rosewood bedroom suite"). If > you're going to get it from the market it all adds to demand. And if one > subscribes fully to capitalist theory, it doesn't matter if it's old and > already harvested: new or old it all fits in one supply-demand equation. > > Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front panel is > one of them - but simply saying 'this is just one little bit, it doesn't > matter' isn't an argument. I believe it is, though, in this case. The reason it would be in other circumstances is that once one person justifies it, everyone will want to do it. Are we losing sight of the fact that "everyone", in this case, means the handful of remaining Straight-8s in the world, and only the subset of those that happen to need new panels? Surely we have better things to get all up in arms about. Who's worrying about that amazing stash of classic gear in Germany that has been left for dead? THOSE aren't something that can be replaced by planting some friggin' seeds. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 16:55:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:55:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > If these are the sort of panels at issue: > ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ Wow, that is a nice rack. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 16:58:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:58:39 -0400 Subject: IBM 083 maybe available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F72380F.1040206@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 05:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have a lead on an IBM 083 card sorter, located on the east coast. I >> do not know the condition. I had hoped it was an 084, but no such >> luck, and I already have two 083s. Any interest out there? > > Prod, prod. > > Razorblades by May. Where on the east coast? I'll be in a truck soon making (hopefully) my last trip to FL. (maybe someone can reply to this so Will will see it? thanks) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 17:04:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:04:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F723980.9040206@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 05:51 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front panel is one >> of them > > I would bet that restoring a PDP-8 would be way down on the public's > list of worthy uses, compared to, for example, restoring a beat up > antique Gibson. Doesn't that depend on which "public" you're talking about? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 17:05:38 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:05:38 -0500 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I consider myself to have a good sense of humor, and when I say I can type six words a minute with only ten typos, I'm not kidding. It is very difficult for me to type, even more so after my last surgery in January, and takes a lot of effort to correct errors. I was almost to the point of using my nose. Please keep in mind that there are a lot of people out there (and I'm sure more on this list) that do have serious limitations and disabilities. I expect to see comments on technical issues here, but not on something like typing skills. Paul On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:14 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 03:28 PM 3/27/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: >>I can only assume that you type with your nose. ?It's the only thing that would explain that mess. ?Either that or you've got the equivalent to a 2400 baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) > > > I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub > every afternoon and then comes back to type here. > > - John > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 17:19:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:19:32 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4F71DA84.21824.16C0A07@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2012 at 17:51, William Donzelli wrote: > > Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front > > panel is one of them > > I would bet that restoring a PDP-8 would be way down on the public's > list of worthy uses, compared to, for example, restoring a beat up > antique Gibson. Or the fingerboard on a fine violin--or a clarinet or recorder. Where the "sound quality" of the wood actually makes more than a "doesn't it look pretty" difference on something that stands of chance of being used more than a century. For your PDP-8, use veneer--at least that stretches the supply--and in this application, who's going to know? Somewhat akin to the gold held at Ft. Knox really being gold-plated tungsten bricks. It's not as if it's going to be used for anything, just as long as we *believe* it has value. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 17:23:56 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, John Foust wrote: > At 03:28 PM 3/27/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I can only assume that you type with your nose. It's the only thing that would explain that mess. Either that or you've got the equivalent to a 2400 baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) > > > I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub > every afternoon and then comes back to type here. > Now that's an equally plausible theory! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 17:23:59 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:23:59 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F723DFF.7020407@gmail.com> On 27/03/2012 22:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/27/2012 05:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth >>>>> worrying >>>>> about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the >>>>> pounds will take care of themselves". >>>>> "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny >>>>> little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly >>>>> what got >>>>> us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. >>>> >>>> More importantly, it's how Microsoft software ended up as what it is. >>>> "It's only a few more bits/clock-cycles" >>> >>> Sure, but how many Straight-8s are there? A handful. This is a >>> self-limiting problem. >> >> Everyone that wants some [rosewood/whatever] can come up with some >> excuse for why their particular use is special and worthy ("I had a >> deprived childhood and now I deserve a rosewood bedroom suite"). If >> you're going to get it from the market it all adds to demand. And if one >> subscribes fully to capitalist theory, it doesn't matter if it's old and >> already harvested: new or old it all fits in one supply-demand equation. >> >> Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front panel is >> one of them - but simply saying 'this is just one little bit, it doesn't >> matter' isn't an argument. > > I believe it is, though, in this case. The reason it would be in > other circumstances is that once one person justifies it, everyone > will want to do it. Are we losing sight of the fact that "everyone", > in this case, means the handful of remaining Straight-8s in the world, > and only the subset of those that happen to need new panels? > > Surely we have better things to get all up in arms about. Who's > worrying about that amazing stash of classic gear in Germany that has > been left for dead? THOSE aren't something that can be replaced by > planting some friggin' seeds. > > -Dave > Dave, A bit hampered on that through lack of German and not wanting to sign up for a German web site. Jim Austin http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ was asking who owns it? Any pointers any one. Dave. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 17:29:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:29:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> References: , <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <4F71DCDD.16684.175334E@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2012 at 22:52, Dave wrote: > Isn't it possible to get sustainable Rosewood? It depends upon what you want to define as rosewood. East Indian Rosewood or sissoo is sometimes sold as rosewood, but it's not the valuable kind. It is, however, cultivated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_sissoo --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 17:32:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:32:52 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F724014.9060703@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 05:55 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> If these are the sort of panels at issue: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ > > Wow, that is a nice rack. Yes! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 27 17:38:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:38:05 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 C compiler In-Reply-To: <0A1DD9D055B64DF0AFDB42E207E28B37@Vincew7> References: <0A1DD9D055B64DF0AFDB42E207E28B37@Vincew7> Message-ID: <4F72414D.6030703@brouhaha.com> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > So, you can read about (and download) an experimental PDP-8 C compiler > at: > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/C/C.php That's *VERY* cool! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 17:35:32 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:35:32 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F7240B4.5010906@gmail.com> On 27/03/2012 22:55, William Donzelli wrote: >> If these are the sort of panels at issue: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ > Wow, that is a nice rack. > > -- > Will > Doesn't the one at MOSI in Manchester look sad in comparision http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/display.php?irn=3022 Dave From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 27 17:48:54 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:48:54 +0200 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F7243D6.1090603@hachti.de> Am 26.03.2012 23:14, schrieb Al Kossow: > This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. This appears to be the stuff CHM and others on this list didn't take. But it's in another place now. Strange.. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 27 17:50:25 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:50:25 +0200 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> I wouldn't mind the teletype either, I really want > one of those, but shipping that would be prohibitive and it looks to be in > very poor condition. Forget about that. It has no typing head - as far as I can remember we didn't leave typing heads... The TTYs looked already awful five years ago. From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 27 17:53:48 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:53:48 -0700 Subject: Can you ID these modules? Message-ID: Anybody know what these were from? Labled OS28, RS15, and TR57. One of them with the name "Collins." From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 27 17:57:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front >> panel is one of them - but simply saying 'this is just one little >> bit, it doesn't matter' isn't an argument. > I believe it is, though, in this case. The reason it would be in > other circumstances is that once one person justifies it, everyone > will want to do it. Are we losing sight of the fact that "everyone", > in this case, means the handful of remaining Straight-8s in the > world, and only the subset of those that happen to need new panels? That's missing the point. Your one-off use, my (different) one-off use, someone else's (yet different) one-off use, _that_ is the "everyone" that matters here. Even if each one truly is a one-off, and I suspect that's pretty close to true for PDP-8 restoration, in the aggregate it's still just as much "everyone" as far as its impact goes as it would be if we were talking something like furniture. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 18:10:48 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:10:48 -0500 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Is that suppose to be funny? On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, John Foust wrote: > >> At 03:28 PM 3/27/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> >>> I can only assume that you type with your nose. ?It's the only thing that >>> would explain that mess. ?Either that or you've got the equivalent to a 2400 >>> baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) >> >> >> >> I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub >> every afternoon and then comes back to type here. >> > Now that's an equally plausible theory! > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. ?Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 18:14:12 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:14:12 -0400 Subject: That festering sore in Germany Message-ID: > A bit hampered on that through lack of German and not wanting to sign up for > a German web site. ?Jim Austin http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ was asking > who owns it? Any pointers any one. I have known about this pile for a few years now, and I have not been able to pin down who owns it, or if anything is being done to save it, past Computer History Museum's haul. At least they pulled some great stuff out. Most of it at this point looks like scrap, but I would like to see that CDC 841 disk system saved, even if it was a dog when new. Also the CDC tape and printer, and I suppose the comm unit. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 18:16:16 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:16:16 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F71DCDD.16684.175334E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> <4F71DCDD.16684.175334E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It depends upon what you want to define as rosewood. ?East Indian > Rosewood or sissoo is sometimes sold as rosewood, but it's not the > valuable kind. ?It is, however, cultivated: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_sissoo Of course, the stuff everyone wants is the old growth stock. And it is not just snob appeal - the old stuff has much better figure. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 27 18:30:34 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:30:34 -0400 Subject: All that glitters is not G@LD!!111 R4R3 - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F71DA84.21824.16C0A07@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4F71DA84.21824.16C0A07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F724D9A.2030607@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/03/12 6:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Mar 2012 at 17:51, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front >>> panel is one of them >> >> I would bet that restoring a PDP-8 would be way down on the public's >> list of worthy uses, compared to, for example, restoring a beat up >> antique Gibson. > > Or the fingerboard on a fine violin--or a clarinet or recorder. > Where the "sound quality" of the wood actually makes more than a > "doesn't it look pretty" difference on something that stands of > chance of being used more than a century. > > For your PDP-8, use veneer--at least that stretches the supply--and > in this application, who's going to know? Somewhat akin to the gold > held at Ft. Knox really being gold-plated tungsten bricks. It's not > as if it's going to be used for anything, just as long as we > *believe* it has value. There is gold at Fort Knox? I think everyone knows by know that when it comes to national matters you can just make sh*t up and people will believe it - so why go to the trouble of making fake ingots? Though if you had to do that, just order "cheap but authentic" gold bullion from the Chinese. :D --Toby > > --Chuck > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 27 18:36:55 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:36:55 -0400 Subject: Fatal multiplier of environmental impact - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F724F17.9040607@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/03/12 4:48 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Do you _seriously_ believe that buying the amount of rosewood to make >> a cover for one straight-8 will make any difference to the rate of >> destruction of said forest? > > Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth worrying > about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the > pounds will take care of themselves". > > "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny > little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got > us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. Precisely. An individual can rationalise away their impact as "nothing much" but be unwilling to consider that impact multiplied by the near-billion people at a comparable standard of living who also refuse to think. ...Just one of the mental lacunae that have screwed us. --Toby > > As I said, I am specifically not weighing in on whether this issue is > worth worrying about in this particular case, especially as compared to > all the other environmental loads of restoring and running an 8. I'm > just pointing out that this particular argument is completely specious. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 27 18:38:27 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:38:27 -0400 Subject: uncomfortable ideas - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/03/12 11:47 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: > >>> If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than >>> restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're >>> (loudly) saying here. >> >>> I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. >> >> To a point, I agree. >> >> On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's >> a bad idea to campaign against evil A. >> > I think it's more his mind-bogglingly poor choice of venue than the > campaign itself. > > g. > "Please do not burden those of us who refuse to consider the environment with uncomfortable ideas." --T From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 18:43:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:43:53 -0400 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 06:50 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I wouldn't mind the teletype either, I really want >> one of those, but shipping that would be prohibitive and it looks to >> be in >> very poor condition. > Forget about that. It has no typing head - as far as I can remember we > didn't leave typing heads... The TTYs looked already awful five years ago. Parts machines are also worthwhile...TTY parts are drying up fast. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 18:58:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:58:29 -0500 Subject: Can you ID these modules? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Colins made a version of the R390 receiver used a lot by the military (and NSA). Any idea how old they are or if you can send pics? Paul On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug Salot wrote: > Anybody know what these were from? > > Labled OS28, RS15, and TR57. ? One of them with the name "Collins." From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 27 19:00:05 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> References: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave wrote: > Isn't it possible to get sustainable Rosewood? Pakistan seems to have lots of "rosewood" available for making bagpipes on the cheap. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 27 19:01:44 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, William Donzelli wrote: >> If these are the sort of panels at issue: >> ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ > > Wow, that is a nice rack. It looks pretty clear to me that the panels are made of some sort of laminate or else you wouldn't have metal coping. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 19:04:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:04:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 06:57 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Perhaps there are worthy uses of rosewood - maybe a PDP-8 front >>> panel is one of them - but simply saying 'this is just one little >>> bit, it doesn't matter' isn't an argument. > >> I believe it is, though, in this case. The reason it would be in >> other circumstances is that once one person justifies it, everyone >> will want to do it. Are we losing sight of the fact that "everyone", >> in this case, means the handful of remaining Straight-8s in the >> world, and only the subset of those that happen to need new panels? > > That's missing the point. Your one-off use, my (different) one-off > use, someone else's (yet different) one-off use, _that_ is the > "everyone" that matters here. Even if each one truly is a one-off, and > I suspect that's pretty close to true for PDP-8 restoration, in the > aggregate it's still just as much "everyone" as far as its impact goes > as it would be if we were talking something like furniture. Ok, I see your point. Why don't we just plant some more of the damn trees, then? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 19:04:29 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > Is that suppose to be funny? > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, John Foust wrote: >> >>> At 03:28 PM 3/27/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> >>>> I can only assume that you type with your nose. ?It's the only thing that >>>> would explain that mess. ?Either that or you've got the equivalent to a 2400 >>>> baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) >>> >>> >>> >>> I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub >>> every afternoon and then comes back to type here. >>> >> Now that's an equally plausible theory! >> >> Yes. Also, quit top posting. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 19:10:05 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:10:05 -0400 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. Is there a list of things that CHM did take? I know you guys pulled out some yummy pieces. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 19:22:44 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:22:44 -0500 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > I thought I had seen (and bought) some stupid things in my life put that > takes the biscuit. Its hidious! Those ghastly bits of modern surface mount > PCB with the numbers on. > If you want an IBM clock (and IBM once made many clocks) get one of these:- > > http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/home-and-office/office/clock-wall/ibm-clock-1.html Anyone know where to get a replacement glass for one of those? I've got a couple IBM clocks and one was a casualty of the recent move :( I don't expect there would be anything but NOS glass available, probably even more rare than the clocks themselves. -j From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 19:27:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:27:19 -0400 Subject: uncomfortable ideas - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F725AE7.7080800@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 07:38 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than >>>> restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're >>>> (loudly) saying here. >>> >>>> I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. >>> >>> To a point, I agree. >>> >>> On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's >>> a bad idea to campaign against evil A. >>> >> I think it's more his mind-bogglingly poor choice of venue than the >> campaign itself. >> >> g. >> > > "Please do not burden those of us who refuse to consider the environment > with uncomfortable ideas." So you think using rosewood to restore a Straight-8 automatically means one doesn't consider the environment? One grows on trees. The other doesn't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 19:30:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:30:55 -0700 Subject: All that glitters is not G@LD!!111 R4R3 - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F724D9A.2030607@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4F71DA84.21824.16C0A07@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F724D9A.2030607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F71F94F.23537.1E450CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2012 at 19:30, Toby Thain wrote: > There is gold at Fort Knox? I think everyone knows by know that when > it comes to national matters you can just make sh*t up and people will > believe it - so why go to the trouble of making fake ingots? Though if > you had to do that, just order "cheap but authentic" gold bullion from > the Chinese. :D Do you mean this stuff? http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/en/alloy11.htm I note that they've taken the page promoting fake gold ingots, complete with labeling pages off the site. I wonder why? Or do you mean the gold ingots cast around a tungsten core? Hey, if you never have to use it for anything, other than to show that you've got *lots* of gold, what's the diff if everyone believes you? It's interesting that no one tries to fake rhodium, as it has commercial use and would be quickly found out. Maybe we can get the Chinese to make some fake old-growth rosewood... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 27 19:34:22 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:34:22 -0700 Subject: That festering sore in Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F725C8E.1000107@bitsavers.org> On 3/27/12 4:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> A bit hampered on that through lack of German and not wanting to sign up for >> a German web site. Jim Austin http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ was asking >> who owns it? Any pointers any one. > > I have known about this pile for a few years now, and I have not been > able to pin down who owns it At this point, it is abandoned property. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 27 19:37:01 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:37:01 -0400 Subject: Spring cleaning Computer sale References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <1D076BFBACB54F51AC537D7EDA9DDA95@hd2600xt6a04f7> Coming here to scam people now? Ran out of places to get kicked out of? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Landon" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:27 PM Subject: Spring cleaning Computer sale > Cleaning out guys.. I got the following that needs homes- All prices are > plus shipping or Local Pickup from Flushing Michigan 48433. Folks who do > local pickup at my door get an even better deal. > > Mac 512- Pretty Yellow missing floppy drive. Powers up to ? $30 dollars > + Shipping > 2 Quadra 610s 1 a 610CD, other a Regular 610.. 8MB RAM in both 80 and > 160MB HDDs > $20 each plus shipping > Power Macintosh 6500/275 32MB RAM 2GB HDD. Has TV/Video System with > TV/Video System box, TV Tuner and Remote $40 > Power Mac 8500/180 16MB RAM 1GB HDD $30 > WorkGroup Server 8550 16MB RAM No HDDs or tape drive $20 > Macintosh Plus- No keyboard or mouse.. Powers up, then drops to a white > line in screen $20 > Tandy 486/33 system.. DX266 OverDrive in it. SCSI CD-ROM, SCSI Card, > 1GB HDD $30 > AST Advantage Adventure 4/33p 16MB RAM 170MB HDD, SB16, CD-ROM. $30 > dollars > Apple Disk II Drives $20 each > Apple 800k External 3.5 Drives $20 each > Apple Extended Keyboard IIs- Lots of em $10 each > Dayna BlueStreak 10/100 LC Ethernet Cards New In Box $15 each > 20 Apple IIGS RGB Monitors $25 each plus shipping > 10 Apple Monitor //s $25 each plus shipping > 10 Apple //e Systems $20 each without drives & monitor > Toshiba Satellite 220CDS- 133mhz Pentium 32MB RAM 1.2GB HDD No ac > adapter, comes with spare machine that needs backlight- $30 > Toshiba Satellite 330CDS 266mhz Pentium 80MB RAM 4GB HDD, Ethernet Card > $50 > Zenith 9 inch Green Screen monitor- works Composite input. $10 dollars > Tandy 1400HD Laptop.. Will not power up.. Comes with AC Adapter which > tested good > Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 1 with original owners manuals, cassette > player and software $50 dollars > Gateway Solo 9500 Laptop- Has AC adapter, 64MB RAM 30GB HDD- Real > Serial Port, Floppy Drive and parallel port and usb $20 > 50 40GB IDE Hard drives $5 dollars each plus shipping > 9 80GB IDE Hard Drives $10 dollars each plus shipping > > > I have a storage unit full as well.. Everything from Molar Macs, to Apple > //e's to compact macs. > > Shoot me an email and lets make a deal so I can have my living room back > :P > > Steve Landon > Flushing Michigan- Which is 15 mins northwest of Flint Michigan > > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 27 19:37:13 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:37:13 -0700 Subject: Can you ID these modules? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmm, my pics didn't show up? Here are direct links: http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxg/4 http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxe/4 They look like 1960's-style discrete logic to me. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I think Colins made a version of the R390 receiver used a lot by the > military (and NSA). Any idea how old they are or if you can send pics? > > Paul > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug Salot > wrote: > > Anybody know what these were from? > > > > Labled OS28, RS15, and TR57. One of them with the name "Collins." > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 27 19:45:58 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:45:58 -0600 Subject: That festering sore in Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Most of it at this point looks like scrap, but I would like to see > that CDC 841 disk system saved, even if it was a dog when new. Also > the CDC tape and printer, and I suppose the comm unit. I would like to save that Beehive EuroBee terminal! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 19:56:24 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:56:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > It looks pretty clear to me that the panels are made of some sort of > laminate or else you wouldn't have metal coping. Maybe, maybe not. Or both. You would want something to cover the top cut in the wood, because the end grain takes stain very differently than the rest of the wood, and looks really pretty bad. -- Will From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 27 19:57:11 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:57:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 C compiler In-Reply-To: <4F72414D.6030703@brouhaha.com> References: <0A1DD9D055B64DF0AFDB42E207E28B37@Vincew7> <4F72414D.6030703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: From: "Eric Smith": Tuesday, March 27, 2012 3:38 PM > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> So, you can read about (and download) an experimental PDP-8 C compiler at: >> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/C/C.php > That's *VERY* cool! Thanks :-). The library needs work, and really, the thing needs to be reworked to target a 32K machine. Who knows when I'd get up the motivation for all that, though. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 20:29:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:29:12 -0400 Subject: That festering sore in Germany In-Reply-To: <4F725C8E.1000107@bitsavers.org> References: <4F725C8E.1000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F726968.20200@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 08:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> A bit hampered on that through lack of German and not wanting to sign >>> up for >>> a German web site. Jim Austin http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ was >>> asking >>> who owns it? Any pointers any one. >> >> I have known about this pile for a few years now, and I have not been >> able to pin down who owns it > > At this point, it is abandoned property. !!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 27 20:46:44 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: All that glitters is not G@LD!!111 R4R3 - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F71F94F.23537.1E450CD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F71DA84.21824.16C0A07@cclist.sydex.com> <4F724D9A.2030607@telegraphics.com.au> <4F71F94F.23537.1E450CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201203280146.VAA08709@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There is gold at Fort Knox? [...] > Or do you mean the gold ingots cast around a tungsten core? Hey, if > you never have to use it for anything, other than to show that you've > got *lots* of gold, what's the diff if everyone believes you? > It's interesting that no one tries to fake rhodium, as it has > commercial use and would be quickly found out. So does gold. You may note that nobody speaks of fake gold in cases where there's a commercial use for it (gold-plating high-reliability contacts, for example), only for cases - like Fort Knox - where there is little-to-no operational difference between real gold and something that looks like gold but isn't. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 27 20:50:45 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:50:45 -0600 Subject: All that glitters is not G@LD!!111 R4R3 - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F724D9A.2030607@telegraphics.com.au> References: , , <4F71DA84.21824.16C0A07@cclist.sydex.com> <4F724D9A.2030607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F726E75.8010304@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/27/2012 5:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > There is gold at Fort Knox? I think everyone knows by know that when it > comes to national matters you can just make sh*t up and people will > believe it - so why go to the trouble of making fake ingots? Though if > you had to do that, just order "cheap but authentic" gold bullion from > the Chinese. :D Now in designer colors ... > --Toby From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 21:01:11 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:01:11 -0700 Subject: Can you ID these modules? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7270E7.9020209@gmail.com> On 3/27/2012 5:37 PM, Doug Salot wrote: > Hmm, my pics didn't show up? > > Here are direct links: > http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxg/4 > > http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxe/4 > > They look like 1960's-style discrete logic to me. > > > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I think Colins made a version of the R390 receiver used a lot by the >> military (and NSA). Any idea how old they are or if you can send pics? >> >> Paul >> >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug Salot >> wrote: >>> Anybody know what these were from? >>> >>> Labled OS28, RS15, and TR57. One of them with the name "Collins." >> >> > That's the correct logo for Collins Radio. Rob. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 27 21:03:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:03:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE>, Message-ID: <4F720EF5.7874.238E285@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Mar 2012 at 17:00, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave wrote: > > > Isn't it possible to get sustainable Rosewood? > > Pakistan seems to have lots of "rosewood" available for making > bagpipes on the cheap. Rosewood of a sort--sissoo, actually. Dahlbergia, but not the deeply- figured Brazilian rosewood that's really beautiful--and an endangered species. A situation somewhat akin to "Phillipine Mahogany" (lauan), which is nothing like the real stuff (endangered). --Chuck From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 27 21:18:31 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:18:31 -0700 Subject: Can you ID these modules? In-Reply-To: <4F7270E7.9020209@gmail.com> References: <4F7270E7.9020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, guys. Let me know if anybody wants them for the cost of postage. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 3/27/2012 5:37 PM, Doug Salot wrote: > >> Hmm, my pics didn't show up? >> >> Here are direct links: >> http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxg/4 >> >> http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxe/4 >> >> They look like 1960's-style discrete logic to me. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> I think Colins made a version of the R390 receiver used a lot by the >>> military (and NSA). Any idea how old they are or if you can send pics? >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug Salot >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anybody know what these were from? >>>> >>>> Labled OS28, RS15, and TR57. One of them with the name "Collins." >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > That's the correct logo for Collins Radio. > > Rob. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 27 21:27:17 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: uncomfortable ideas - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's >>> a bad idea to campaign against evil A. >>> >> I think it's more his mind-bogglingly poor choice of venue than the >> campaign itself. >> >> g. >> > > "Please do not burden those of us who refuse to consider the environment with > uncomfortable ideas." > If I wanted your opinion on what you think I said, I'd tell you what it was. Most likely in a manner that would require the skills of a good plasic surgeon to repair. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From jgessling at yahoo.com Tue Mar 27 21:30:17 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions Message-ID: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Because when the environment has been destroyed and there's no place that the "damn" trees will grow then you can't plant them successfully. You guys are pathetic.? As I said before, is it so difficult to think about where materials come from? Regards, Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 27 21:33:58 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:33:58 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > TTY parts are drying up fast. That's actually where well whale oil can be put to good use. You specifically want a lightweight oil for that. Fortunately, modern light machine oils can do the job adequately. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 27 21:47:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <20120327194627.X43085@shell.lmi.net> > > Isn't it possible to get sustainable Rosewood? > Pakistan seems to have lots of "rosewood" available for making bagpipes on > the cheap. Have you heard what those SOUND like? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 27 21:49:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Why don't we just plant some more of the damn trees, then? If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . how long will it take if we plant 100 trees? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 27 22:06:38 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:06:38 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> On 3/27/12 5:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. > > Is there a list of things that CHM did take? http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=sap+collection&type=exact&t=objects is everything that has been cataloged. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 27 22:07:32 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:07:32 -0400 Subject: Took all the trees / put em in a tree museum - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F728074.8000703@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/03/12 10:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Why don't we just plant some more of the damn trees, then? > > If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . > how long will it take if we plant 100 trees? > Then you have to protect them for 100 years, too. Not so easy. I guess some people on this list have never googled "deforestation". --Toby From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 22:24:32 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:24:32 -0500 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: are you making fun of my whale oil thread? lol On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> TTY parts are drying up fast. >> > > That's actually where well whale oil can be put to good use. You > specifically want a lightweight oil for that. Fortunately, modern light > machine oils can do the job adequately. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 27 22:32:45 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:32:45 -0600 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F72865D.50505@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/27/2012 9:24 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > are you making fun of my whale oil thread? lol Ah... another WD-40 user found! > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> TTY parts are drying up fast. >>> >> >> That's actually where well whale oil can be put to good use. You >> specifically want a lightweight oil for that. Fortunately, modern light >> machine oils can do the job adequately. >> >> > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 22:41:29 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:41:29 -0500 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F72865D.50505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> <4F72865D.50505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: lol On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:32 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/27/2012 9:24 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> are you making fun of my whale oil thread? lol >> > > Ah... another WD-40 user found! > > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> TTY parts are drying up fast. >>>> >>>> >>> That's actually where well whale oil can be put to good use. You >>> specifically want a lightweight oil for that. Fortunately, modern light >>> machine oils can do the job adequately. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 27 23:41:12 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:41:12 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo at web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, James Gessling writes: > Because when the environment has been destroyed and there's no place that > the "damn" trees will grow [...] I think you really have no idea how difficult it is to destroy the environment to the extent that you propose. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 27 23:44:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:44:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F729736.1020702@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 10:30 PM, James Gessling wrote: > Because when the environment has been destroyed and there's no place that the "damn" trees will grow then you can't plant them successfully. > You guys are pathetic. As I said before, is it so difficult to think about where materials come from? I think this particular instance has redefined "pathetic". This is by far the most ridiculous crap I've seen on this list. Whining about fucking recycled wood from old furniture. Get a grip. Or a life. Or SOMETHING. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 28 00:05:41 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201203280505.BAA11265@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Because when the environment has been destroyed and there's no place >> that the "damn" trees will grow [...] > I think you really have no idea how difficult it is to destroy the > environment to the extent that you propose. Quite easy; indeed, it's almost been done, or the things wouldn't be endangered. Remember, "environment" means the whole environment, including (eg) humans, not just things like weather and soil with all the other issues wished away. To put it another way, trees grow very poorly in the presence of humans who consider survival of the trees as a species of small value compared to having the land cleared. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 28 00:15:20 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:15:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F729E68.70703@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/03/12 12:41 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo at web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, > James Gessling writes: > >> Because when the environment has been destroyed and there's no place that >> the "damn" trees will grow [...] > > I think you really have no idea how difficult it is to destroy the > environment to the extent that you propose. We're almost there. Do some research. --T From tomk4114 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 27 06:26:34 2012 From: tomk4114 at yahoo.com (Thomas Kwasniewski) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Edge Connector needed for HP 5036A Trainer HP 1251-2680 - Help please..... Message-ID: <1332847594.18721.YahooMailNeo@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Anyone; I have an HP 5036A Microprocessor Trainer that I need two PC Edge connectors for. These are used to "Expand" the 8085 based trainer (without soldering right to the motherboard). The Gotcha is that these 44 pin, 22 position edge connectors are for thick, 3/32", .09375 boards. TRW?CINCH 251-22-30-341 ? Do you have any idea of a resource/lead where I could find these? ? I have tried CINCH, Mouser, DigiKey, Ebay, Electronic Surpuls sales, etc. with no luck. ? Thanks in advance for your kind response.?? Tom K.? From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 27 18:00:16 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:00:16 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203241554.q2OFsWP3014054@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201203241554.q2OFsWP3014054@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <4F724680.308@hachti.de> Hi David, > Does anyone have 4k BASIC or Spacewar? > / SPACE WAR > / > / INTERPLANETARY DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ON YOUR > / LAB-8 > / > / EVAN SUITS You're looking for the spacewar you're citing above? I currently don't know where I have the original source - I modified it to fit my LAB-8/e Real time clock and a pair of joysticks.... But here it is: / SPACE WAR / / INTERPLANETARY DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ON YOUR / LAB-8/E / / HACHTI VARIANT FOR LAB-8/E / / EVAN SUITS / / THIS VERSION WORKS OFF EITHER THE BLUE RIBBON CONNECTOR OR THE / SR. WHEN THE PROGRAM IS STARTED (AT 0200) OR RESTARTED THE / SR WILL BE TESTED AND IF =0000 WILL BE USED FOR THE COMMAND / INPUT. OTHERWISE, THE BLUE RIBBON CONNECTOR (AX08 * C0-C7 * / XR OPTION ONLY) CONTINGENCY INPUTS WILL BE USED. / / WHEN THE PROGRAM IS STARTED THE TWO SHIPS SHOULD / APPEAR ON THE SCREEN WITH SHIP 'ONE' ON THE LEFT, SHIP / 'TWO' ON THE RIGHT. / / THE COMMAND WORD BIT ASSIGNMENTS ARE: / / SR BIT: C: FUNCTION: / / 0 0 SHIP ONE ROTATES LEFT / / 1 1 SHIP ONE ROTATES RIGHT / / 2 2 SHIP ONE ACCELERATES / / 3 3 SHIP ONE FIRES / / / / 8 4 SHIP TWO ROTATES LEFT / / 9 5 SHIP TWO ROTATES RIGHT / / 10 6 SHIP TWO ACCELERATES / / 11 7 SHIP TWO FIRES / / / / NOTE THAT TURNING RIGHT AND LEFT SIMULTANEOUSLY THROWS / THE SHIP INTO HYPERSPACE. IN THE CURRENT VERSION THE ODDS / ARE IN FAVOR OF YOUR MAKING IT BACK SAFELY. THE GAME IS OVER / WHEN ONE OR BOTH OF THE SHIPS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED AND THE / WINNER (IF ANY) IS IN NORMAL SPACE. WHEN THE WINNER / HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED, HIT ANY TTY KEY TO RESTART. / /**************************************************************** /*************************** / CLOCK OPERATIONS CLZE=6130 / CLEAR CLOCK ENABLE REGISTER PER AC CLSK=6131 / SKIP ON CLOCK FLAG CLOE=6132 / SET CLOCK ENABLE REGISTER PER AC CLAB=6133 / AC REGISTER TO CLOCK COUNTER REGISTER CLEN=6134 / CLOCK ENABLE REGISTER TO AC CLSA=6135 / STATUS TO AC CLBA=6136 / CLOCK BUFFER REGISTER TO AC CLCA=6137 / CLOCK COUNTER REGISTER TO AC / BITS IN CLOCK ENABLE REGISTER CREXT=0100 / EXTERNAL SOURCE CR2=0200 / 10**2 per second CR3=0300 / 10**3 per second CR4=0400 / 10**4 per second CR5=0500 / 10**5 per second CR6=0600 / 10**6 per second COVSTAT=4000 CMFREE=0000 / 4096 FIXED FREE RUN CMPROG=1000 / PROGRAMMED DELAY CADC=0040 / START ADC ON OVERFLOW CINH=0020 / INHIBIT CLOCK CION=0010 / INTERRUPT ENABLE CEV3=0004 / EVENT 3 ENABLED CEV2=0002 / EVENT 2 ENABLED CEV1=00001 / EVENT 1 ENABLED / VC8-E OPCODES DIXY=6055 / INTENSIFY DILX=6053 / LOAD X DILY=6054 / LOAD Y DILE=6056 / LOAD ENABLES FROM A DISD=6052 / TEST FOR READY /**************************************************************** / SYMBOL DEFINITIONS FOR PAL8-PAL10 XRIN=NOP / DIGITAL INPUT? XRCL=NOP /DSB=XXXX / SET BRIGHTNESS - MUST BE COMMENTED OUT!!! DXC=JMS I IVCLDX / X VALUE CONTROL? DYC=JMS I IVCLDY / Y VALUE CONTROL? DXL=0000 / X VALUE LOAD FLAG? DYL=0000 / Y VALUE LOAD FLAG? DIS=0000 / ANOTHER STRANGE FLAG /CRF=NOP / WHICH FLAG??? /CCF=NOP / ?? /**************************************************************** / / THIS PROGRAM RELIES ON THE PROGRAM INTERUPT FACILITY FOR / REAL WORLD TIMING PURPOSES. / *0 0 /EFFECTIVE JMS 0 ON PROGRAM INTERUPT JMP I 2 /EXIT IMMEDIATLY TO SERVICE ROUTINE INTSER EMPTY, 0 /THESE LOCATIONS ARE RESERVED FOR ODT1, 0 /DEBUGGERS, ETC. ODT2, 0 ODT3, 0 / / ALL THE AUTO INDEX REGISTERS ARE NAMED BUT NOT ALL OF / THEM ARE USED. THE STATUS OF ANY GIVEN REGISTER CANNOT / BE DETERMINED AT ANY TIME EXCEPT BY CAREFUL INSPECTION OF / THE CODE. / *10 AUTO10, 0 AUTO11, 0 AUTO12, 0 AUTO13, 0 AUTO14, 0 AUTO15, 0 AUTO16, 0 AUTO17, 0 / / THE FOLLOWING ARE THE DATA FILES FOR THE TWO SPACE SHIPS / AS WELL AS CERTAIN OTHER PARAMETERS FOR CALCULATING POSITIONS / AND SO ON. THE ORDER OF THE LOCATIONS MUST BE PRESERVED / ALTHOUGH THE SIZE OF THE TABLES MAY BE VARIED / *20 ONEOUT, 0 /IF NON-ZERO CONTAINS REAMINING TIME OF EXPLOSION ONECNT, 0 /NUMBER OF POINTS IN FIGURE TO BE DISPLAYED ONEFLG, 0 /IN OR OUT OF NORMAL SPACE ONETHE, 0 /ANGLE OF ORIENTATION ON SCREEN ONEVEX, 0 /X COMPONENT OF VELOCITY ONEVEY, 0 /Y COMPONENT OF VELOCITY ONEPEX, 0 /X POSITION (12 BITS) ONEPEY, 0 /Y POSITION (12 BITS) ONESIN, 0 /SINE OF ANGLE ONECOS, 0 /COSINE OF ANGLE ONEFIN, 0 /SET WHEN EXPLOSION DIES OUT TWOOUT, 0 /SAME CONTENT AND ORDER TWOCNT, 0 /AS ABOVE TWOFLG, 0 TWOTHE, 0 TWOVEX, 0 TWOVEY, 0 TWOPEX, 0 TWOPEY, 0 TWOSIN, 0 TWOCOS, 0 TWOFIN, 0 / / THESE LOCATIONS ARE USED BY THE "VECTOR GENERATOR" IN / DISPLAYING THE FIGURES. A FOUR DOT VECTOR WILL BE DRAWN / FROM XONE,YONE TO XTWO,YTWO WITH STEPS OF SIZE DIXTEM,DIYTEM / XONEDS, 0 YONEDS, 0 XTWODS, 0 YTWODS, 0 DIXTEM, 0 DIYTEM, 0 DISCNT, 0 / / THE NEXT LOCATIONS ARE USED BY CALPOS TO DO A FAST / MULTIPLY TO HELP CALCULATE THE DISPLAY FILES. / T10SIN, 0 T20SIN, 0 T30SIN, 0 T10COS, 0 T20COS, 0 T30COS, 0 CALSIN, 0 CALCOS, 0 / / NOW COME THE VARIOUS ODDS AND ENDS ONE USUALLY FINDS ON / PAGE ZERO / SINE, SINEIN COSINE, COSINI MULT, MULTI RSHIFT, SHIFTR VECTOR, DISPLY CALPOS, POSCAL INTWRD, 0 INTCNT, 0 /CLOCK, 0 HYPER, HYPSET MESOUT, CHARS THEADJ, THEAJI VEESCL, VEELIM ISHFT, DISHFT RESET1, RESE1 GAMOVR, 0 ACCFLG, 0 ACCPER, -30 MEXP, -400 PROX, 0 PROY, 0 PROLIF, -360 BUFTMP, 0 ONEFIL, DISBUF TWOFIL, DISBUF+40 P5, 5 P10, 10 P17, 17 P20, 20 P37, 37 P40, 40 P100, 100 P132, 132 P200, 200 P400, 400 P550, 550 P3777, 3777 M4, -4 M6, -6 M10, -10 M11, -11 M264, -264 M200, -200 M400, -400 M550, -550 IVCLDX, VCLDX IVCLDY, VCLDY / / THE PROGRAM MAY BE STARTED OR RESTARTED AT ANYTIME AT 0200. / THE DATA FILE ON PAGE ZERO IS CLEARED, ALL FLAGS INITIALIZED, / AND THE SR EXAMINED. IF THE SR=0 THE DISPLAY UPDATE ROUTINES / ARE SET TO PICK UP THE STATUS WORD FROM THE SR. IF THE SR / DOES NOT EQUAL ZERO, THE STATUS WORD IS READ FROM THE EIGHT / CONTINGENCY INPUTS ON THE BLUE RIBBON CONNECTOR OF THE AX08 / (XR OPTION ONLY). JUMP IS THEN TO THE DISPLAY / FILE UPDATE TO START OFF THE GAME. / CDI=6201 *200 CDI 0 / SET FIELD0 START, CAF /START OR RESTART HERE ANY OLD TIME DIXY /TO GET THE VC8-E STARTED ONCE LAS /SR /TMP SNA CLA TAD SWRD /USE THE SR TAD XROPT /USE THE BLUE RIBBON CONNECTOR DCA COLDST /AND LEAVE IN THE TRAP LOCATION RESTRT, CLA CMA XRCL CLA CLL TAD P17 /FIRST CLEAR THE POSITION AND DATA DCA AUTO10 /TABLES OF THE TWO SHIPS TAD TABLEN DCA AUTO11 DCA I AUTO10 ISZ AUTO11 JMP .-2 TAD STRT1 /SET THE STARTING POSITIONS OF THE DCA ONEPEX /TWO SHIPS TAD STRT2 DCA TWOPEX TAD P37 /SET TRIG FUNCTIONS JUST IN CASE DCA ONECOS TAD P37 DCA TWOCOS /ZERO DEGREES IS POINTING STRAIGHT UP TAD ACCPER /SET COUNT FOR VELOCITY INCREASE DCA ACCFLG DCA ONEFIN /CLEAR ALL GAME END FLAGS DCA TWOFIN DCA GAMOVR JMS I BUFSET /RESET ALL PROJECTILE DISPLAY BUFFERS TCF /CLEAR OTHER REMAINING LIKELY FLAGS PCF / RRB 6405 / CLEAR INTERRUPT ENABLE OF KERMIT'S SER PORT :-( CLA CMA / ALL ONES CLZE / CLEAR CLOCK CONFIG REGISTER CLA TAD CDELY / LOAD NEG DELAY CLAB / LOAD TO CLOCK BUFFER CLA TAD CCNF / LOAD CLOCK CONFIG CLOE / SET CONFIG BITS CLA CLL JMP COLDST /AND GO TO IT CCNF, CR4+CMPROG+CION+COVSTAT / CLOCK CONFIGURATION CDELY, -310 / COUNTER PRESET (200) / / UPDATE IS REACHED WHENEVER THE PROGRAM IS STARTED OR THE / CLOCK COUNT OVERFLOWS INDICATING TIME TO RECALCULATE THE / THE DISPLAY FILES AND REFRESH THE DISPLAY. THE INTERUPT / COUNT IS RESTORED, THE STATUS WORD IS PICKED UP FROM EITHER / THE SR OR BRC, AND THE RECALCULATION PROCESS BEGUN. / UPDATE, CLA CLL /HERE ON CLOCK COUNT OVERFLOW. /START NEXT SWEEP COLDST, 0 /TRAP TO READ SR OR BRC LAS /HERE FOR SR DCA INTWRD /STORE TEMPORARILY TAD INTWRD /MASK OUT LEFTMOST 4 BITS RTR /FOR NUMBER ONE RTR AND LFTHAF DCA INTTEM /AND STORE TAD INTWRD /MASK OUT RIGHTMOST BITS FOR NUMBER TWO AND RYTHAF TAD INTTEM /ADD TOGETHER JMP .+3 /AND CONTINUE CODST, XRIN /HERE FOR BRC - PICK UP AND CLEAR XRCL DCA INTWRD /CONTINUE TAD M550 /RESTORE INTERUPT COUNT BEFORE NEXT DCA INTCNT /UPDATE ION /GET READY FOR THE NEXT CYCLE TAD ACCFLG /ALLOW VELOCITY INCREASE THIS TIME? IAC /ONLY WHEN ACCFLG=0 SMA SZA TAD ACCPER /IF ZERO, RESET COUNT DCA ACCFLG JMP I .+1 /NOW GET DOWN TO WORK. ONEUP BUFSET, SETBUF TABLEN, AUTO17-CALCOS INTTEM, 0 LFTHAF, 0360 RYTHAF, 0017 STRT1, 1000 STRT2, -1000 SWRD, 2000-CODST XROPT, JMP CODST / / THIS IS THE INTERUPT SERVICE ROUTINE. MOST OF THE / INTERUPTS WILL BE FROM THE CRYSTAL CLOCK WHICH WILL BE / COUNTED AND UNLESS THE COUNT OVERFLOWS THE INTERUPT IS / DISMISSED IMMEDIATLY. IF THE COUNT OVER FLOWS, JMP IS TO / UPDATE WITH IOF. / / SPECIAL CASE IS KEYBOARD INTERUPT WHEN THE GAMOVR FLAG IS / SET IN WHICH CASE THE GAME IS RESTARTED. / / UNEXPECTED INTERUPTS ARE COUNTED AND AFTER ENOUGH OF THEM / HAPPEN THE PROGRAM HALTS. IF THIS HAPPENS RELOAD OR FIND THE / STRANGE FLAG / INTSER, DCA INTACC /HERE RIGHT AFTER INTERUPT - STORE RAR /AC AND LINK DCA INTLNK /FOR POSSIBLE CONTINUATION CLSK /WAS IT THE CRYSTAL CLOCK? JMP INTBUS /NO TRY SOMETHING ELSE CLA IAC RTR /LOAD 4000 CLSA /GET CLOCKSTATUS AND RESET FLAG CLA CLL JMP UPDATE /YES, GO TO IT INTBUS, /HERE ON NON-CLOCK INTERUPT KSF JMP NOKEY /NOT THE KEYBOARD, THAT'S BAD! KBDIN, KCC /CLEAR KEYBOARD FLAG KRB / RESET FLAG, CLEAR AC, READ DATA AND KPAR / MASK OUT PARITY TAD NCTRLC / ADD -3 (CTRL-C) SNA CLA JMP I KBOOT / REBOOT! TAD GAMOVR /IS THE GAMEOVER SZA CLA JMP RESTRT /YES, RESTART KRB AND KPAR TAD NCTRLD SNA CLA JMP RESTRT JMP INTRET NOKEY, / STILL NOT FOUND INTERRUPT SOURCE :-( TSF / SKIP IF PRINTER FLAG SET JMP BADDIE / NOT THE PRINTER, NO NEW IDEAS - BAD TCF / CLEAR THAT FLAG JMP INTRET / AND GO HOME KBOOT, 7600 KPAR, 177 / ANTI-PARITY MASK NCTRLC, 7775 / -3 (CTRL-C) NCTRLD, 7774 / -3 (CTRL-D) BADDIE, ISZ INTGLH /COUNT ONE BADDIE SKP HLT /HALT IF TOO MANY BADDIES INTRET, CLA CLL /HERE TO DISMISS THE INTERUPT PCF / RRB TAD INTLNK RAL TAD INTACC ION JMP I 0 INTACC, 0 INTLNK, 0 INTGLH, 0 / / NOW BEGINS THE GREAT UPDATE PROCEEDURE, FIRST FOR SHIP / NUMBER ONE (THE DELTA SHAPED SHIP WHICH APPEARS ON / THE LEFT AT THE START OF THE GAME). IF ALIVE THE STATUS / WORD (INTWRD) IS TESTED FOR REQUESTS FOR LEFT TURN, / RIGHT TURN, THRUST ON, AND LAUNCH PROJECTILE. THESE ACTIONS / MAY OR MAY NOT BE ACTED UPON DEPENDING ON COUNTS AND FLAGS. / WHEN THIS IS COMPLETE THE SAME OPERATION IS PERFORMED FOR / NUMBER TWO. / *400 ONEUP, TAD ONEFLG /FIRST SEE IF IT'S IN NORMAL SPACE SNA JMP ONEOK /YES IT IS IAC /NO, BUT IS IT JUST COMING OUT? SNA TAD ONEFIN /YES, THROW BACK IN IF ALREADY DESTROYED DCA ONEFLG /OTHERWISE JUST COUNT ONE JMP I ITWOUP /AND GO TO FIX UP NUMBER TWO ONEOK, TAD ONEOUT /IN NORMAL SPACE - IS IT EXPLODING? SZA CLA JMP ONEFIG /IF YES, ALLOW NO CONTROLS TAD TWOFIN /HAS THE ENEMY BEEN VANQUISHED? SZA CLA JMS I ONEWN /YES, SIGNAL VICTORY TAD INTWRD /NOW BEGIN TEST OF REQUEST AND OP300 /LEFT AND RIGHT TURN TOGETHER MEAN HYPERSPACE! TAD OM300 /TEST BITS 4 AND 5 SZA CLA JMP ONELEF /NOPE, CONTINUE CMA /YES, CALL HYPER WITH AC=-1 FOR NUMBER ONE JMP I HYPER ONELEF, TAD INTWRD /REQUEST FOR LEFT TURN? AND P200 /TEST BIT 4 SNA CLA JMP ONERYT /NO CLA CLL CMA /YES DECREMENT ANGLE JMP ONEFIG ONERYT, TAD INTWRD /HOW ABOUT RIGHT TURN AND P100 /TEST BIT 5 SZA CLA IAC /YES, INCREMENT ANGLE ONEFIG, TAD ONETHE /PICK UP AND ADJUST ANGLE (MAYBE) JMS I THEADJ /BRING BACK WITHIN LIMITS OF TRIG FUNCTIONS DCA ONETHE /AND STORE TAD ONETHE /FIND THEM TRIG FUNCTIONS JMS I SINE /AND STORE ONCE AND FOR ALL DCA ONESIN /IN THE APPROPRIATE PLACES TAD ONETHE JMS I COSINE DCA ONECOS TAD ONEOUT /DO NOT ALLOW THRUST IF EXPLODING SZA CLA JMP ONEVEL ONEMOV, TAD ACCFLG /ALLOW ANY VELOCITY INCREASE THIS CYCLE? SZA CLA JMP ONEVEL /NOPE TAD INTWRD /YES, ANY REQUESTED? AND P40 /TEST BIT 6 SNA CLA JMP ONEVEL /NONE REQUESTED TAD ONECOS /YES, ADD IN VELOCITY INCREMENT DEPENDING TAD ONEVEY /ON ORIENTATION JMS I VEESCL /BUT DO NOT ALLOW TO EXCEED MAXIMUM DCA ONEVEY /AND STORE TAD ONESIN /DO THE SAME FOR THE OTHER (X) COMPONENT TAD ONEVEX JMS I VEESCL DCA ONEVEX ONEVEL, TAD ONEVEX /NOW UPDATE THE POSITION WITH THE JMS I ISHFT /VELOCITY COMPONENTS DIVIDED BY 4 JMS I ISHFT /THIS MAINTAINS MAXIMUM RESOLUTION TAD ONEPEX DCA ONEPEX /IGNORE ANY OVERFLOW TAD ONEVEY /DO THE SAME FOR Y COORDINATE JMS I ISHFT /AND VELOCITY COMPONENT JMS I ISHFT TAD ONEPEY DCA ONEPEY TAD ONEOUT /DO NOT ALLOW PROJECTILE LAUNCH IF SZA CLA /EXPLODING JMP I ITWOUP ONELNC, TAD LNC1FG /OTHERWISE, SEE IF RELOAD IS FINISHED SNA CLA JMP .+3 ISZ LNC1FG /NO, CONTINUE RELOADING JMP I ITWOUP /AND EXIT TAD INTWRD /YES, READY TO LAUNCH, TRIGGER BEEN PULLED? AND P20 /TEST BIT7 SNA CLA JMP I ITWOUP /NO, WAIT FOR A BETTER SHOT /.....I GUESS..... TAD PROLIF /YES, SET CYCLE COUNT FOR THIS LAUNCH DCA I AUTO16 /AUTO16 ALWAYS POINTS AT THE NEXT SLOT IN THE FILE TAD ONEVEX /ADD SHIPS VELOCITY (SCALED OF COURSE) JMS I ISHFT /TO ORIENTATION TO EXTABLISH X VELOCITY JMS I RSHIFT /COMPONENT OF PROJECTILE TAD ONESIN JMS I RSHIFT /AND STICK IT IN THE FILE DCA I AUTO16 TAD ONESIN /MOVE THE LAUNCH POINT OUTSIDE THE CLL RTL /SHIP OF ORIGIN TAD ONEPEX DCA I AUTO16 /AND STORE X POSITION TAD ONEVEY /NOW DO THE SAME FOR THE Y VELOCITY AND JMS I ISHFT /POSITION JMS I RSHIFT TAD ONECOS JMS I RSHIFT DCA I AUTO16 TAD ONECOS CLL RTL TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO16 TAD M200 /START RELOAD CYCLE DCA LNC1FG JMS I RESET1 /RESET AUTO16 TO NEXT HOLE JMP I .+1 /NOW TO FIX IT UP WITH NUMBER TWO ITWOUP, TWOUP LNC1FG, 0 /PROJECTILE LAUNCH ENABLE OP300, 300 /HYPERSPACE REQUEST CODE BITS 4 AND 5 OM300, -300 ONEWN, ONEWIN /POINTER TO VICTORY MESSAGE / / HERE BEGINS THE UPDATE PROCEEDURE FOR SHIP NUMBER TWO. / OPERATION IS THE SAME AS FOR NUMBER ONE ABOVE. / *600 TWOUP, TAD TWOFLG /FIRST SEE IF IT'S IN NORMAL SPACE SNA JMP TWOOK /YES, CONTINUE IAC /NO, BUMP COUNT AND TEST FOR REENTRY SNA TAD TWOFIN /IF RE-ENTERING THROW BACK OUT IF FINISHED DCA TWOFLG /AND CONTINUE JMP I IONEST TWOOK, TAD TWOOUT /HERE WHEN READY TO UPDATE IN NORMAL SPACE SZA CLA /IS IT EXPLODING? JMP TWOFIG /YES DO NOT ALLOW HYPERSPACE TAD ONEFIN /DID WE JUST WIN? SZA CLA JMS I TWOWN /YES ENABLE END OF GAME MESSAGE TAD INTWRD /TEST FOR HYPERSPACE REQUEST AND OP14 TAD OM14 /BITS 8 AND 9 MUST BE SET SNA CLA JMP I HYPER /8 AND 9 SET. ENTER HYPER ROUTINE WITH AC=0 /FOR SHIP NUMBER 2 TWOLEF, TAD INTWRD /TEST FOR LEFT TURN - BIT 8 AND P10 SNA CLA JMP TWORYT /NOT SET CLA CLL CMA /SET, DECREMENT TWOTHE BY 1 DEGREE JMP TWOFIG /SKIP TEST FOR RIGHT TURN TWORYT, CLA CLL IAC RTL /TEST FOR RIGHT TURN - BIT 9 AND INTWRD SZA CLA IAC /IF SET INCREMENT TWOTHE BY 1 DEGREE TWOFIG, TAD TWOTHE /UPDTAE TWOTHE JMS I THEADJ /BRING TO WITHIN LIMITS OF SINE,COSINE DCA TWOTHE /AND STORE TAD TWOTHE JMS I SINE /CALCULATE SINE AND COSINE FUNCTIONS DCA TWOSIN /AND STORE IN DATA TABLE TAD TWOTHE JMS I COSINE DCA TWOCOS TAD TWOOUT /DO NOT ALLOW VELOCITY CHANGE IF EXPLODING SZA CLA JMP TWOVEL TWOMOV, TAD ACCFLG /NOW FOR ACCELERATION. TEST TO SEE IF ALLOWED SZA CLA /DURING THIS UPDATE CYCLE JMP TWOVEL /NOPE CLL IAC RAL /YES, TEST FOR BIT 2 SET AND INTWRD SNA CLA JMP TWOVEL /NOT SET TAD TWOSIN /UPDATE X VELOCITY COMPONENT BY SINE OF TAD TWOVEX /ANGLE OF ORIENTATION JMS I VEESCL /AND SCALE TO NOT EXCEED MAX DCA TWOVEX /UPDATE Y COMPONENT WITH COSINE TAD TWOCOS TAD TWOVEY JMS I VEESCL DCA TWOVEY TWOVEL, TAD TWOVEX /NOW UPDATE THE POSITION WITH THE VELOCITY JMS I ISHFT /COMPONENTS/16 JMS I ISHFT TAD TWOPEX DCA TWOPEX TAD TWOVEY JMS I ISHFT JMS I ISHFT TAD TWOPEY DCA TWOPEY TAD TWOOUT SZA CLA JMP I IONEST TWOLNC, TAD LNC2FG /NOW CHECK FOR PROJECTILE LAUNCH. FIRST SNA CLA /TEST TO SEE IF RELOAD COMPLETE JMP .+3 ISZ LNC2FG /NO, COUNT ONE CYCLE AND EXIT JMP I IONEST IAC /YES, TEST TRIGGER BIT 11 AND INTWRD SNA CLA JMP I IONEST /NOT SET, HELL WITH IT TAD PROLIF /OK, SET PROJECTILE LIFE DCA I AUTO16 /AUTO16 IS ALWAYS POINTING AT THE NEXT SLOT TAD TWOVEX /ADD SHIPS VELOCITY JMS I ISHFT /(ADJUSTED) JMS I RSHIFT TAD TWOSIN /TO THAT OF PROJECTILE - AGAIN X COMPONENT JMS I RSHIFT /FROM SINE OF ANGLE OF ORIENTATION DCA I AUTO16 TAD TWOSIN /SET INITIAL POSITION TO BE JUST AHEAD CLL RTL /OF THE SHIP TAD TWOPEX /X COMPONENT DCA I AUTO16 TAD TWOVEY /NOW THE Y COMPONENTS FROM Y VELOCITY JMS I ISHFT /Y POSITION AND COSINE JMS I RSHIFT TAD TWOCOS JMS I RSHIFT DCA I AUTO16 TAD TWOCOS CLL RTL TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO16 TAD M200 DCA LNC2FG /200 CYCLES OF RELOAD JMS I RESET1 /DRINK LEADEN DEATH, NUMBER ONE! JMP I .+1 /FINAL EXIT TO DISPLAY FILE CALCULATIONS IONEST, ONESET LNC2FG, 0 /RELOAD COUNT OP14, 14 /HYPERSPACE CODE OM14, -14 TWOWN, TWOWIN / / HERE BEGINS THE DISPLAY CALCULATIONS FOR THE TWO SHIPS. AT / THIS POINT ONLY THE POSITION AND ORIENTATION OF EACH VESSEL / IS ONF INTEREST SINCE THE VELOCITY AND ALL THAT HAVE ALREADY / BEEN TAKEN CARE OF. FOR THE BOTH SHIPS THE DISPLAY FILES ARE / CALCULATED AS A SERIES OF PAIRS OF X,Y COORDINATES. BETWEEN / EACH PAIR OF POINTS A FOUR POINT VECTOR WILL BE DRAWN. THE / ACTUAL COORDINATES ARE CALCULATED AS DISPLACEMENTS / FROM THE CENTRAL PSOTION OF THE SHIP, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE / ANGLE OF ORIENTATION. THE FORMULAS FOLLOWED ARE: / / X(POINT)=X(BASE)+X(REL)*COS[THE]+Y(REL)*SINE[THE] / / Y(POINT)=Y(BASE)+Y(REL)*COS[THE]-X(REL)*SINE[THE] / / WHERE SINE[THE] AND COS[THE] ARE THE FUNCTIONS OF THE / ANGLE OF ORIENTATION, X(BASE) AND Y(BASE) ARE THE / COORDINATES OF THE SHIPS POSITION AND X(REL) AND Y(REL) / CORRESPOND TO DISPLACEMENT PAIRS DEPENDING ON THE SHAPE / OF THE FIGURE. ALL X AND Y RELS LIE WITHIN THE RANGE 0-3 AND / THERE FORE ALL NECESSARY DISPLACEMENTS FROM BASE COORDINATES / MAY BE CALCULATEDFROM DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS OF T10SIN, T20COS / ETC. THESE VALUES ARE CALCULATED BY A CALL TO POSCAL WITH THE SINE / AND COSINE OF THE ANGLE OF INTEREST IN CALSIN AND CALCOS. / / FOLLOWING THIS METHOD ANY FIGURE DESCRIBABLE WITH A 7 BY 7 / MATRIX OF POINTS MAY BE QUICKLY CALCULATED. / / BEGINNING AT ONESET DIFFERENT DISPLACEMENT PAIRS ARE CALCULATED / AND DEPOSITIED THROUGH AUTO10 TO FORM THE DISPLAY FILE FOR SHIP NUMBER ONE. / *1000 ONESET, CLA CLL /BEGIN DISPLAY FILE FOR NUMBER ONE TAD ONEFLG /DONT BOTHER IF NOT IN NORMAL SPACE SZA CLA JMP I ITWOST TAD ONESIN /SET UP FOR MATRIX COMPONENT CALCULATIONS DCA CALSIN TAD ONECOS DCA CALCOS JMS I CALPOS /CALL THE CALCULATOR / / CONSIDER THE 7 BY 7 MATRIX OF DISPLACEMENT POINTS WITH THE / CENTER AT 0,0 CORRESPONDING TO THE SHIPS POSITION. A SERIES / OF POINTS IS NOW DESCRIBED AROUND THIS CENTER USING THE / MULTIPLES OF THE TRIG FUNCTIONS JUST CALCULATED / SO THAT ANY POINT ON THE OUTLINE IS DESCRIBABLE AS X,Y / DISPLACED BY X,Y OF THE SHIP ITSELF / TAD ONEFIL /SET UP AUTO10 AS THE DISPLAY FILE DCA AUTO10 /POINTER TAD ONEPEX /THE FIRST POINT OF THE OUTLINE IS TAD T30SIN DCA I AUTO10 / 0,3 OR TOP CENTER TAD ONEPEY TAD T30COS DCA I AUTO10 TAD T10COS CIA /THE SECOND IS TAD ONEPEX DCA I AUTO10 / -1,0 TAD T10SIN /OR JUST LEFT OF DEAD CENTER TAD ONEPEY /AND SO ON DCA I AUTO10 TAD T30SIN TAD T30COS /THE THIRD POINT IS CIA TAD ONEPEX / -3,-3 DCA I AUTO10 TAD T30COS /OR BOTTOM LEFT HAND CORNER CIA TAD T30SIN TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T10SIN CIA /FOURTH POINT TAD ONEPEX DCA I AUTO10 / 0,-1 TAD T10COS CIA /OR JUST BELOW CENTER TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO10 FLAM1, TAD INTWRD /TEST FOR POWER ON. IF ON, DRAW THE AND P40 /FLAME WITH AN EXTRA POINT SOME SNA CLA /DISTANCE DIRECTLY BELOW THE SHIP JMP ONECON /POWER NOT ON - CONTINUE TAD ONEOUT /DO NOT ALLOW IF EXPLODING SZA CLA JMP ONECON TAD ONFG1 /USE ONFG1 TO TURN THE FLAME ON AND SNA /OFF TO MAKE IT FLICKER. DISPLAY THE CLA CLL CMA RAL /FLAME ONE TIME OUT OF THREE DCA ONFG1 ISZ ONFG1 JMP ONECON /ONE OUT OF THREE TIMES THIS WILL SKIP TAD ONFG2 /VARY ALSO THE LENGHT OF THE FLAME CMA /WITH LONG SHORT LONG SHORT DCA ONFG2 TAD ONFG2 /TIP OF FLAME AT EITHER SNA CLA TAD T10SIN / 0,-4 OR TAD T30SIN / 0,-3 CIA TAD ONEPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD ONFG2 SNA CLA TAD T10COS TAD T30COS CIA TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T10SIN CIA TAD ONEPEX /RETURN DISPLAY TO 0,-1 DCA I AUTO10 TAD T10COS CIA TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO10 CLA CLL CMA RAL /ADD -2 TO POINT COUNT ONECON, TAD M6 /SET POINT COUNT TO -6 OR -8 DCA ONECNT TAD T30SIN /CONTINUE WITH DISPLAY FILE - THIS POINT CIA TAD T30COS / AT 3,-3 TAD ONEPEX / DCA I AUTO10 /OR LOWER RIGHT HAND CORNER TAD T30SIN TAD T30COS CIA TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T10COS /NEXT TAD ONEPEX / DCA I AUTO10 / 1,0 TAD T10SIN / CIA / OR JUST RIGHT OF CENTER TAD ONEPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T30SIN /FINALLY BACK TO TAD ONEPEX / DCA I AUTO10 / 0,3 TAD T30COS / TAD ONEPEY / TOP CENTE DCA I AUTO10 JMP I ITWOST /NOW FOR NUMBER TWO ITWOST, TWOSET ONFG1, 0 /USED TO COUNT FLICKERS ONFG2, 0 /SHORT OR LONG FLAG / / HERE BEGINS THE DISPLAY FILE GENERATOR FOR SHIP TWO. / IT WORKS JUST LIKE THE ONE FOR NUMBER ONE BUT WITH / DIFFERENT DISPLACEMENT PAIRS AND TWO EXTRA POINTS / *1200 TWOSET, CLA CLL /DONT BOTHER IF NOT IN NORMAL SPACE TAD TWOFLG SZA CLA JMP I IFILDS TAD TWOSIN /SET UP TO HAVE DISPLACEMENT INCREMENTS DCA CALSIN /CALCULATED TAD TWOCOS DCA CALCOS JMS I CALPOS TAD TWOFIL /SET AUTO10 TO POINT TO SECOND DISPLAY DCA AUTO10 /FILE TAD T30SIN /FIRST POINT AT TAD TWOPEX / DCA I AUTO10 / 0,3 TAD T30COS / TAD TWOPEY / OR TOP CENTER DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS CIA TAD T20SIN TAD TWOPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20SIN TAD T20COS /SECOND POINT TAD TWOPEY / -2,2 DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS /THIRD POINT CIA / -2,0 TAD TWOPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20SIN TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS TAD T30SIN CIA TAD TWOPEX /FOURTH POINT DCA I AUTO10 / -2,-3 TAD T30COS CIA TAD T20SIN TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20SIN CIA /NEXT TAD TWOPEX / 0,-2 DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS CIA TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 FLAM2, CLA CLL IAC RAL /NOW THE FLAME BIT. CHECK FOR POWER ON AND INTWRD SNA CLA JMP TWOCON /NO, FORGET IT TAD TWOOUT /NOT ALLOWED IF EXPLODING SZA CLA JMP TWOCON TAD TWFG1 /SET THE 1-3 FLICKER AS WITH #1 SNA CLA CLL CMA RAL DCA TWFG1 ISZ TWFG1 /ALSO THE LENGHT VARIATION JMP TWOCON TAD TWFG2 /EVERY OTHER TIME LONG CMA DCA TWFG2 /FLAME TIP AT EITHER TAD TWFG2 / 0,-3 SNA CLA /OR TAD T20SIN / 0,-5 TAD T30SIN CIA TAD TWOPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD TWFG2 SNA CLA TAD T20COS TAD T30COS CIA TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20SIN /NOW BACK UP TO THE SHIP CIA TAD TWOPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS CIA TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 CLA CLL CMA RAL /ADD -2 TO POINT COUNT TWOCON, TAD M10 /SET POINT COUNT TO -8 OR -10 DCA TWOCNT TAD T30SIN /CONTINUE WITH DISPLAY FILE CIA /NEXT POINT AT 2,-3 TAD T20COS TAD TWOPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD T30COS TAD T20SIN CIA TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS /NEXT POINT TAD TWOPEX / DCA I AUTO10 / 2,0 TAD T20SIN CIA TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20COS /AND THE NEXT AT TAD T20SIN TAD TWOPEX / 2,2 DCA I AUTO10 TAD T20SIN CIA TAD T20COS TAD TWOPEY DCA I AUTO10 TAD T30SIN TAD TWOPEX DCA I AUTO10 TAD T30COS /AND THE LAST AT TAD TWOPEY / DCA I AUTO10 / 0,3 JMP I IFILDS /NOW TO DISPLAY THE WHOLE MESS IFILDS, FILDIS TWFG1, 0 /FLIK THE FLAME TWFG2, 0 /LONG OR SHORT / / HERE TO DISPLAY THE TWO SHIPS. CHECK FIRST FOR COLLISION / AND THEN SET THE TWO PAIRS OF COORDENATES FOR THE END / POINTS AND CALL THE "VECTOR GENERATOR" TO DRAW THE DOTS / IN BETWEEN. WHEN THE COUNT OVERFLOWS DO THE SAME FOR / NUMBER TWO. THEN EXIT TO DISPLAY ALL THE PROJECTILES. / *1400 FILDIS, CLA CLL /ALL SET TO GO JMS I COLIDE /TEST FOR COLLISION FIRST / DSB 1 /IF NO COLLISION TAD ONEFLG /SKIP NUMBER ONE IF NOT IN NORMAL SZA CLA /SPACE JMP TWODIS TAD ONEFIL /SET UP POINTERS TO DISPLAY FILE DCA AUTO10 /FOR NUMBER ONE TAD ONECNT /ALONG WITH VECTOR COUNT DCA AUTO11 TAD I AUTO10 /SET OUT THE FIRST POINT PAIR DCA XONEDS TAD I AUTO10 DCA YONEDS TAD ONEOUT /NORMAL DISPLAY OR EXPLOSION? SZA CLA JMP I IONEEX /GO ELSE WHERE FOR EXPLOSION FILONE, TAD I AUTO10 /STEP TO NEXT PAIR OF POINTS DCA XTWODS /SET X AND Y TO NEW POINT TAD I AUTO10 DCA YTWODS JMS I VECTOR /CALL THE DOT DRAWING MACHINE ISZ AUTO11 SKP /COUNT JMP TWODIS /DO NUMBER TWO ON OVERFLOW TAD XTWODS /SWAP POINTS FOR NEXT PAIR DCA XONEDS TAD YTWODS /THE GENERATOR DRAWS FROM ONE DCA YONEDS /TOWARDS TWO JMP FILONE TWODIS, TAD TWOFLG /HERE TO DO NUMBER TWO SZA CLA /BUT NOT IF IN HYPER SPACE JMP I IPRODS TAD TWOFIL /SET UP FILE POINTER AS IN ONE DCA AUTO10 TAD TWOCNT /AND THE COUNT DCA AUTO11 TAD I AUTO10 /I SUPPOSE THIS COULD BE A SUBROUTINE TOO DCA XONEDS TAD I AUTO10 DCA YONEDS TAD TWOOUT /IS IT EXPLODING? SZA CLA JMP I ITWOEX /YES, HOW EXCITING TWDLOP, TAD I AUTO10 /NO HOW DULL, STICK IN NEXT PAIR OF DCA XTWODS /POINTS TAD I AUTO10 DCA YTWODS /AND CALL THE VECTOR SEQUENCE JMS I VECTOR ISZ AUTO11 JMP .+3 JMP I .+1 /WHEN COUNT OVERFLOWS GO ON TO IPRODS, PRODIS /DO THE PROJECTILE THING TAD XTWODS /OTHERWISE SWAP ON TO THE NEXT PAIR DCA XONEDS /OF POINTS TAD YTWODS DCA YONEDS JMP TWDLOP COLIDE, COLLID IONEEX, ONEEXP ITWOEX, TWOEXP / / THIS IS THE SO CALLED "VECTOR GENERATOR" WHICH DRAWS A / SERIES OF DOTS FROM XONEDS,YONEDS TO XTWODS,YTWODS. / THE COORDINATE COMPONENTS ARE DIVIDED INTO FOURTHS AND / FOUR DOTS DRAWN ON THE SCOPE SCREEN. NOTE THAT NO DOT / IS DRAWN AT XONEDS,YONEDS. THIS IS COMPENSATED FOR ELSEWHERE. / DISPLY, 0 /ENTER TO DRAW A FOUR POINT VECTOR CLA TAD XONEDS /FROM XONEDS,YONEDS CIA /TO XTWODS,YTWODS TAD XTWODS /DIVIDE COORDINATE DIFERENCES INTO JMS DISHFT /FOURTHS DCA DIXTEM /AND STORE INCREMENT TAD YONEDS CIA TAD YTWODS JMS DISHFT /FOURTHS DCA DIYTEM TAD M4 /FOR FOUR DOTS DCA DISCNT DISLOP, TAD XONEDS /ADD INCREMENT TO CURRENT X AND Y TAD DIXTEM DCA XONEDS /NOTE THAT THIS ROUTINE DESTROYS TAD YONEDS /XONEDS AND YONEDS TAD DIYTEM DCA YONEDS TAD XONEDS / RTR /DIVIDE BY 8 TO FIT SCREEN SIZE / RAR DXC DXL /SET X VALUE CLA TAD YONEDS /DO THE SAME FOR Y / RTR / RAR DYC DYL DIS /AT LAST SOMETHING TO SEE!! CLA ISZ DISCNT /DONE YET? JMP DISLOP /NOPE JMP I DISPLY /YUP DISHFT, 0 /A GENERALIZED SHIFT ROUTINE CALLED CLL /FROM EVERYWHERE TO DIVIDE THE SPA /AC BY FOUR WITH AN ASR RIGHT CML IAC /NOTE THAT NEGATIVE NUMBERS ARE RAR /ROUNDED UPWARDS (TOWARD ZERO) CLL /TO MAKE IT COME OUT RIGHT SPA CML IAC /EVEN SO THERE ARE SOME ROUNDING ERRORS RAR /SOMEWHERE. SO MUCH FOR 12 BIT MACHINES JMP I DISHFT / / HERE TO DISPLAY ALL THE PROJECTILES AND TEST FOR HITS. / THE PROJECTILE DISPLAY FILE IS SEARCHED FOR PROJECTILES WITH / NON-ZERO COUNTS AND WHEN ONE IS FOUND THE POSITION IS / UPDATED BY THE VELOCITY, THE POINT DISPLAYED AND TESTED FOR / A HIT. / *1600 PRODIS, CLA CLL / BEGIN DISPLAY OF THE PROJECTILES TAD BUFST /POINT TO BEGINNING OF DISPLAY FILE DCA BUFTMP / DSB 2 /SET EXTRA BRIGHT FOR SINGLE POINTS PROLOP, TAD I BUFTMP /PICK UP NEXT COUNT SNA JMP EXPIRE /THIS ONE IS DEAD - GO TO THE NEXT IAC /INCREMENT COUNT AND REPLACE DCA I BUFTMP ISZ BUFTMP /BUMP POINTER TO X VELOCITY TAD I BUFTMP ISZ BUFTMP /THEN TO XPOSITION AND UPDATE X POSITION TAD I BUFTMP /WITH THE VELOCITY WHICH IS CONSTANT DCA I BUFTMP TAD I BUFTMP DCA PROX /AND STORE X POSITION FOR DISPLAY AND TEST ISZ BUFTMP /NOW TO Y POSITION AND VELOCITY TAD I BUFTMP ISZ BUFTMP TAD I BUFTMP /SAME LITTLE GAME DCA I BUFTMP TAD I BUFTMP DCA PROY /STORE THE NEW Y VALUE TAD PROX /DISPLAY THE POINT WITH / RTR /THE SAME SHIFT AS FOR THE SHIPS / RAR /FOR THE SMALL SCREEN DXC DXL CLA TAD PROY / RTR / / RAR DYC DYL DIS /THERE IT IS!! CLA JMS I CHKOUT /TEST FOR A HIT ISZ BUFTMP /MOVE POINTER ON AND TEST FOR END TAD BUFTMP /OF BUFFER TAD BUFLIM SZA CLA JMP PROLOP /NOT AT END - CONTINUE / / HERE AT THE END OF THE PROJECTILE DISPLAY. IF THE GAMOVR / FLAG IS SET, GO ON TO THE MESSAGE DISPLAY - VICTORY LAP / SECTION. OTHERWISE PICK UP THE REMAINING CLOCK COUNT / TO GIVE THE FANS SOMETHING TO LOOK AT, AND MOVE THE / ELECTRON BEAM TO A LOWER CORNER. THE COUNT DISPLAYED / IN THE AC IS THE NUMBER OF 100 USEC CLOCK TICKS REMAINING / WHEN THIS CODE IS REACHED BEFORE THE NEXT UPDATE WOULD / BEGIN. TURNS OUT THAT ROUGHLY 2/3 OF THE CPU IS LEFT / OVER SHOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO ANYTHING VERY FANCY. / FINISH, TAD GAMOVR /IS THIS THE VICTORY LAP OR WHAT? SZA CLA JMP I ENDGAM /YES, GO TO PUT UP THE MESSAGE / TAD M400 /MOVE THE BEAM OFF SCREEN / DYC DYL CLA CLL / DXC DXL TAD INTCNT /PICK UP THE COUNT CIA JMP . ENDGAM, JOBLOP EXPIRE, TAD BUFTMP /HERE TO ADVANCE THE BUFFER TAD P5 /POINTER TO THE NEXT PROJECTILE DCA BUFTMP /UNLESS THE END TAD BUFTMP /OF THE BUFFER TAD BUFLIM /IS REACHED SZA CLA /IN WHICH CASE JMP PROLOP /IT JMP FINISH /QUITS BUFST, DISBUF+101 BUFLIM, -DISBUF-175 CHKOUT, CHECK RESE1, 0 /THIS IS CALLED TO SET THE POINTER TAD MRES /(AUTO16) TO THE NEXT FREE SLOT DCA RESCNT /FOR A PROJECTILE LAUNCH. 12 POSSIBLE RESLOP, TAD RESPNT /MOVE THE POINTER TO THE NEXT SLOT TAD P5 DCA RESPNT TAD RESPNT /RESTE IF AT END OF BUFFER TAD BUFLIM SZA CLA JMP RESCON TAD BUFST DCA RESPNT RESCON, TAD I RESPNT /FIND A HOLE YET? SNA CLA JMP RESFND /YES, SET UP AUTO16 ISZ RESCNT /NO COUNT JMP RESLOP /AND TRY AGAIN HLT /NO HOLES AT ALL? RESFND, CMA /BACK THE POINTER FOR AUTO INDEXING TAD RESPNT DCA AUTO16 JMP I RESE1 MRES, -14 RESCNT, 0 RESPNT, 0 SETBUF, 0 CMA /THIS ROUTINE IS CALLED FROM THE TAD BUFST /STARTING SEQUENCE TO INITIALIZE ALL DCA AUTO16 /THE BUFFER POINTERS AND SO ON TAD BUFST DCA BUFTMP TAD BUFST DCA RESPNT TAD BUFST DCA SETPNT SETLOP, DCA I SETPNT ISZ SETPNT TAD SETPNT TAD BUFLIM SZA CLA JMP SETLOP JMP I SETBUF SETPNT, 0 / / THIS HERE NOW THING CHECKS THE COORDINATES OF THE MOST RECENTLY / DISPLAYED PROJECTILE AGAINST THOSE OF THE SHIPS ON THE SCREEN. / IF WITH A COLLISION LIMIT A HIT IS RECORDED AND THE LIFE / COUNT OF THE PROJECTILE ZEROED TO REMOVE IT. A HIT SHIP / IS SUITABLY FLAGGED / *2000 CHECK, 0 /HERE TO TEST FOR A PROJECTILE HIT TAD ONEFLG /CANT HIT SOMETHING IN HYPERSPACE SZA CLA JMP CHECK2 TAD ONEOUT /OR SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN HIT SZA CLA JMP CHECK2 TAD PROX /CHECK X COORDINATES OF SHIP ONE CIA /AND PROJECTILE TAD ONEPEX /THIS SORT OF THING IS WHY THE SPA /COORDINATES HAVE TO BE MAINTAINED TO 12 CIA /BITS TAD LIMIT /CLOSE ENOUGH? SMA CLA JMP CHECK2 /IF X ISN' CLOSE ENOUGH THEN NO HIT TAD PROY /X WAS CLOSE ENOUGH, HOW ABOUT Y? CIA TAD ONEPEY SPA CIA TAD LIMIT SMA CLA JMP CHECK2 /NO HIT TAD MEXP /DEPOSIT EXPLOSION COUNT IN ONEOUT DCA ONEOUT /ALL THAT IS NECESSARY JMS CUTOUT /REMOVE PROJECTILE CHECK2, TAD TWOFLG /NO HIT ON NUMBER ONE, TRY NUMBER TWO SZA CLA JMP I CHECK /BUT NOT IF IN HYPERSPACE TAD TWOOUT /OR IF ALREADY HIT SZA CLA JMP I CHECK TAD PROX /CHECK X'S FIRST CIA TAD TWOPEX SPA /GET ABSOLUTE VALUE OF DIFFERENCE CIA TAD LIMIT /AND TEST MAGNITUDE AGAINST PROXIMITY SMA CLA /LIMIT JMP I CHECK /NOWHERE NEAR CLOSE TAD PROY /NYAH, NYAH CIA /TRY THE Y'S TAD TWOPEY SPA CIA /ABSOLUTE VALUE OF DIFFERENCE TAD LIMIT SMA CLA JMP I CHECK /CLEAN MISS! TAD MEXP /HIT ON TWO - END EVERYTHING BY SETTING DCA TWOOUT /TWOOUT TO NON-ZERO EXPLOSION COUNT JMS CUTOUT JMP I CHECK /EXIT AFTER DESTOYING PROJECTILE LIMIT, -120 /PROXIMITY LIMIT FOR WHAT CONSTITUTES A HIT CUTOUT, 0 /THIS ROUTINE ZEROES OUT THE MOST RECENTLY TAD M4 /DISPLAYED PROJECTILE BY ZEROEING THE TAD BUFTMP /COUNT DCA CUTPNT DCA I CUTPNT JMP I CUTOUT CUTPNT, 0 / / THIS ROUTINE IS CALLED TO TEST FOR A COLLISION BETWEEN THE / TWO SHIPS. THE COORDINATES OF BOTH ARE COMPARED / AND IFF SUFFICIENTLY CLOSE BOTH ARE DESTROYED BY SETTING / THEIR EXPLOSION COUNTS NON-ZERO. / COLLID, 0 /HERE TO TEST FOR COLLISION TAD ONEFLG /NO TEST IF EITHER SHIP IS IN SZA CLA /HYPERSPACE OR EXPLODING JMP I COLLID TAD TWOFLG SZA CLA JMP I COLLID TAD ONEOUT SZA CLA JMP I COLLID TAD TWOOUT SZA CLA JMP I COLLID TAD ONEPEX /BOTH SHIPS AVAILABLE FOR COLLISION CIA /CHECK X COORDINATES FIRST TAD TWOPEX SPA /GET ABSOLUTE VALUE OF DIFFERENCE CIA TAD COLLIM /CLOSE ENOUGH? SMA CLA JMP I COLLID /NOPE, FORGET IT TAD ONEPEY /YES, NOW TRY THE Y COORDINATES CIA TAD TWOPEY SPA CIA /GET MAGNITUDE ONLY TAD COLLIM SMA CLA /CLOSE ENOUGH? JMP I COLLID TAD MEXP /YES, SET BOTH EXPLOSION COUNTS DCA ONEOUT TAD MEXP DCA TWOOUT JMP I COLLID COLLIM, -300 / / THIS ROUTINE IS CALLED TO SET ONE OF THE TWO SHIPS INTO / HYPERSPACE. ON ENTRY THE AC=-1 FOR SHIP #1, 0 FOR SHIP / NUMBER 2. THE LOCATION CLOCK IS USED FOR A RANDOM / ADDRESS POINTER FROM WHICH WILL BE DRAWN THE / VARIOUS PARAMETERS FOR REENTRY. / *2200 HYPSET, DCA RTNFLG /HERE WITH AC=-1 OR 0 TAD RTNFLG /SET UP LIST POINTER SZA CLA TAD ONEDIF /TO APPROPRIATE SHIP FILE TAD TWOLST DCA AUTO15 CLCA /SET UP "RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR" /USE CLOCK COUNTER FOR THAT PURPOSE DCA AUTO17 TAD I AUTO17 /PICK UP FIRST THE AMOUNT OF TIME AND TIMOUT /OUT OF NOMAL SPACE LIMITED TO -777 CIA /UPDATE CYCLES ( ABOUT 15 SECONDS) DCA I AUTO15 /AND STORE IN ONEOUT OR TWO OUT TAD I AUTO17 /THE NEXT RANDOM NUMBER BECOMES THE JMS I THEADJ /ANGLE OR ORIENTATION ON REENTRY DCA I AUTO15 TAD I AUTO17 /AND THE NEXT BECOMES THE X VELOCITY JMS VEESET /COMPONENT DCA I AUTO15 TAD I AUTO17 /AND THEN THE Y COMPONENT JMS VEESET DCA I AUTO15 TAD I AUTO17 DCA I AUTO15 TAD I AUTO17 DCA I AUTO15 TAD I AUTO17 /FINALLY SEE IF RETURN WILL BE SUCCESSFLY AND TIMOUT TAD MHYP /ABOUT 3/4 CHANCE SMA CLA JMP HYPRET /OK TAD RTNFLG /THIS IS THE ONE TIME IN FOUR. SET SZA CLA /UP FOR EXPLOSION ON REENTRY TAD ONEDIF TAD OUTLOC DCA VEESET TAD MEXP DCA I VEESET HYPRET, ISZ RTNFLG JMP I TWORTN JMP I ONERTN TIMOUT, 777 ONEDIF, ONEFLG-TWOFLG TWOLST, TWOFLG-1 RTNFLG, 0 ONERTN, TWOUP TWORTN, ONESET OUTLOC, TWOOUT MHYP, -200 VEESET, 0 /HERE TO LIMIT VELOCITY COMPONENTS CLL SPA /GET MAGNITUDE CML AND HM177 /LIMIT TO 177 SZL CLL CIA JMP I VEESET /AND EXIT HM177, 177 ONEEXP, CLA CLL /HERE TO DISPLAY SHIP NUMBER ONE AS TAD ONETHE /AN EXPLOSION TAD INCONE /FIRST ROTATE IT BY A GOOD DOLLOP DCA ONETHE JMS I IXPDIS /THEN CALL THE EXPLOSION GENERATOR ISZ ONEOUT /DONE WITH THE EXPLOSION? JMP I NOWTWO /NO, NORMAL RETURN IAC /YES, SET INTO PSEUDO HYPER SPACE DCA ONEFLG IAC /DISABLE RETURN FROM HYPER SPACE DCA ONEFIN TAD TWOFIN /IS NUMBER TWO STILL AROUND? SNA CLA JMP I NOWTWO /YES, RETURN JMP I TIEUP /NO, TIE BALL GAME TWOEXP, CLA CLL /HERE TO DISPLAY SHIP NUMBER TWO TAD TWOTHE /AS AN EXPLOSION. BASH IT AROUND TAD INCTWO DCA TWOTHE JMS I IXPDIS /THEN DISPLAY IT ISZ TWOOUT /DONE WITH EXPLOSION? JMP I NOWPRO /NO, NORMAL RETURN IAC /YES, SEND INTO PSEUDO HYPER SPACE DCA TWOFLG IAC /DISABLE NORMAL RETURN FROM HYPERSPACE DCA TWOFIN /CHECK NUMBER ONE TAD ONEFIN SZA CLA /STILL ALIVE AND WELL? JMP I TIEUP /NO, TIE GAME JMP I NOWPRO /YES, CONTINUE ON NOWTWO, TWODIS NOWPRO, PRODIS TIEUP, NOWIN IXPDIS, EXPDIS INCONE, 55 INCTWO, 55 / / HERE TO DISPLAY THE FIGURE POINTED TO BY AUTO10 AS / AN EXPLOSION. THIS WORKS THE SAME WAY AS THE NORMAL / DISPLAY ROUTINE EXCEPT THAT THE COORDINATE INCREMENTS / ARE INVERTED TURNING THE FIGURE INSIDE OUT FOR S / A SORT OF CLOBBY EXPLOSION. / *2400 EXPDIS, 0 /HERE TO DISPLAY A FIGURE INSIDE OUT TAD I AUTO10 /WITH THE POINTERS AND COUNTS ALREADY DCA XTWODS /SET UP BY FILDIS OR TWODIS TAD I AUTO10 /STICK NEXT TWO POINTS INTO LINE DCA YTWODS TAD XTWODS CIA /CALCULATE INCREMENT THE WRONG WAY TAD XONEDS DCA DIXTEM /AND STORE TAD YTWODS CIA TAD YONEDS DCA DIYTEM /SAME FOR Y TAD M4 /4 DOTS IN THE VECTOR" DCA DISCNT /COULD HAVE CALLED THE OTHER /VECTOR GENERATOR I SUPPOSE EXPLOP, TAD XONEDS TAD DIXTEM /ADD X AND Y INCREMENTS TO THE RUNNING DCA XONEDS /TOTALS AND DISPLAY THE RUNNING TAD YONEDS /TOTALS NORMAL SIZE TAD DIYTEM DCA YONEDS TAD XONEDS / RTR /COULD MAKE TWICE AS BIG BY NOP-ING / RAR /THE RAR'S BUT THE SCREEN IS SMALL ENOUGH JMS I IVCLDX /AS IT IS CLA TAD YONEDS / RTR / RAR JMS I IVCLDY / DISD / JMP .-1 / DIXY CLA ISZ DISCNT /DONE 4 DOTS? JMP EXPLOP /NO ISZ AUTO11 /DONE ALL VECTORS IN THE FILE? SKP JMP I EXPDIS /YES, EXIT TAD XTWODS /NO SWAP TO NEXT PAIR OF POINTS DCA XONEDS TAD YTWODS DCA YONEDS JMP EXPDIS+1 / / VEELIM IS THE SCALING ROUTINE FOR VELOCITY COMPONENTS. / THE COMPONENTS ARE SCALED TO REMAIN IN THE RANGE 140 / TO -140. THIS IS NECESSARY TO AVOID ASTRONOMICAL SPPED / BUILDUP ON THE SMALL SCREEN. UNFORTUNATELY THE X AND Y / COMPONENTS ARE SCALED SEPARATELY WHICH GIVES SLIGHT BUT / NOTICABLE DISTORTIONS IN DIAGONAL FLIGHT PATHS. IN THE / NORMAL HEAT OF THE BATTLE NO ONE WILL REALLY NOTICE. / VEELIM, 0 /ENTER TO SCALE VELOCITY HELD IN DCA VEEHLD /AC TAD VEEHLD SMA /BRANCH FOR POSITIVE OR NEGATIV JMP VEEPOS TAD VEEMAX SMA CLA /GREATER THAN MAXIMUM POSITIVE? JMP VEECLR /NO TAD VEEMIN /I MEAN MAXIMUM NEGATIVE - YES SET JMP I VEELIM /TO MAX NEGATIV VEEPOS, TAD VEEMIN /GREATER THAN MAX? SPA CLA JMP VEECLR /NO TAD VEEMAX /YES SET TO MAX JMP I VEELIM VEECLR, TAD VEEHLD /IT WAS IN RANGE ALL ALONG JMP I VEELIM VEEHLD, 0 VEEMIN, -140 VEEMAX, 140 THEAJI, 0 /HERE TO ADJUST THE ANGLE TO A RANGE SMA /0-550 OR 0-360 DEGREES. THIS IS JMP .+3 /NECESSARY TO INSURE THAT PUSHDOWN OVERFLOW TAD P550 /WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE SINE AND COSINE JMP .-3 /ROUTINES. THIS SIMPLY TAKES THE AC TAD M550 /MODULO 360 AND EXITS SMA JMP .-2 TAD P550 /FOLLOW IT THROUGH AND SEE IF IT DOESN'T JMP I THEAJI / / ONE OF THESE ROUTINE IS ENTERED WHEN A WINNER IS DECLARED. / THE ADDRESS OF THE VICTORY MESSAGE IS PLACED IN MESS AND / THE GAMOVR FLAG SET TO CAUSE A BRANCH TO JOBLOP WHEN THE / DISPLAY CYCLE IS COMPLETED. THE ROUTINE WILL THEN DISPLAY / THE APPROPRIATE MESSAGE OVER THE REMAINING SHIPS IF / ANY UNTIL THE KEYBOARD IS MOLESTED OR THE CLOCK RUNS OUT / AND THE NEXT DISPLAY UPDATE CYCLE IS SET. AT ANY RATE THE / PROGRAM WILL REACH HERE ONLY WHEN SOMEONE HAS BITTEN THE / INTERGALACTIC DUST. / ONEWIN, 0 /THIS IS CALLED WHEN TWOFIN IS SET TAD MES1 /AND ONE FIN IS NOT. SET ONE TO VICTOR DCA MESS /AND SET GAMOVR FLAG IAC DCA GAMOVR JMP I ONEWIN /THEN RETURN TO UPDATE CYCLE TWOWIN, 0 /THIS IS CALLED WHEN ONEFIN IS SET TAD MES2 /AND TWO FIN IS NOT DCA MESS /SET ALSO GAMOVR IAC DCA GAMOVR JMP I TWOWIN NOWIN, TAD MES4 /GET HERE WHEN BOTH ONEFIN AND TWOFIN DCA MESS /ARE SET . IAC DCA GAMOVR /NOBODY EVER REALLY WINDS /UP THE WINNER IN THESE THINGS JOBLOP, / DSB 1 /THIS IS ENTERED FROM FINISH WHEN TAD MES0 /GAMOVR IS SET AND SERVES TO DISPLAY JMS I MESOUT /THE VICTORY MESSAGE ON THE SCREEN TAD MESS /USING THE CHARACTER GENERATOR SOMEWHAT JMS I MESOUT /FURTHER ON UNTIL THE GAME IS RESTARTED TAD MES5 /OR UNTIL THE INTERRUPT COUNT OVERFLOWS JMS I MESOUT /AND THE UPDATE CYCLE IS RESTARTED TAD MES3 JMS I MESOUT FINITO, JMP JOBLOP MES0, MESS0 MES1, MESS1 MES2, MESS2 MES3, MESS3 MES4, MESS4 MES5, MESS5 MESS, 0 / / THE FOLLOWING ARE THE SINE AND COSINE ROUTINES CUSTOMIZED / FOR THIS PROGRAM FROM ANOTHER I WORKED ON. CALL EITHER / SINE OR COSINE WITH ANGLE IN DEGREES IN AC. THE ARGUEMENT / IS REDUCED THROUGH RECURSION UNTIL BETWEEN 0-89 DEGREES / AND THEN A TABLE LOOKUP DONE TO OBTAIN THE VALUE. IT TAKES / UP A FAIR AMOUNT OF SPACE BUT IT WORKS JUST FASTER / THAN SHEEP. THE COSINE CALL JUST TRANSFORMS THE ARGUEMENT / THROUGH SOME TRIGONOMETRIC GARBAGE AND CALLS THE SINE / ROUTINE. NOTE THAT CALLING EITHER ROUTINE WITH TOO / LARGE AN ARGUEMENT WILL CAUSE PUSHDOWN OVERFLOW AND THEN / ALL HELL WILL BREAK LOOSE. THE ORIGINAL ROUTINE FROM WHICH / THIS WAS STOLEN HAD FULL WORD PRECISION. / *6400 SINEIN, 0 /I REALLY CANT BRING MYSELF TO COMMENT DCA SINARG /THIS. IT'S VERY STRAIGHFORWARD TAD SINEIN DCA I SINPSH ISZ SINPSH TAD SINARG SZA JMP SINNG2 SINPOP, CLA CLL CMA TAD SINPSH DCA SINPSH TAD I SINPSH DCA SINEIN TAD SINARG JMP I SINEIN SINNG2, SMA JMP SINPOS CIA JMS SINEIN SINNEG, CIA DCA SINARG JMP SINPOP SINPOS, TAD M264 SPA JMP .+2 JMP SINNEG-1 TAD P132 SPA JMP SINELK SZA CLA JMP .+3 TAD P37 JMP SINNEG+1 TAD SINARG TAD M264 JMP SINNEG-1 SINELK, TAD P132 TAD SINTAB DCA SINEIN TAD I SINEIN DCA SINARG JMP SINPOP SINARG, 0 SINPSH, SINLST SINLST, 0 0 0 0 0 0 SINTAB, SINES-1 COSINI, 0 CIA TAD P132 JMS SINEIN JMP I COSINI SINES, 00 /1 01 /2 01 /3 02 /4 02 /5 03 /6 03 /7 04 /8 05 /9 05 /10 06 /11 06 /12 07 /13 07 /14 10 /15 10 /16 11 /17 11 /18 12 /19 12 /20 13 /21 13 /22 14 /23 15 /24 15 /25 16 /26 16 /27 17 /28 17 /29 20 /30 20 /31 20 /32 21 /33 21 /34 22 /35 22 /36 23 /37 23 /38 24 /39 24 /40 25 /41 25 /42 25 /43 26 /44 26 /45 27 /46 27 /47 27 /48 30 /49 30 /50 30 /51 31 /52 31 /53 31 /54 32 /55 32 /56 32 /57 33 /58 33 /59 33 /60 33 /61 34 /62 34 /63 34 /64 35 /65 35 /66 35 /67 35 /68 35 /69 36 /70 36 /71 36 /72 36 /73 36 /74 36 /75 37 /76 37 /77 37 /78 37 /79 37 /80 37 /81 37 /82 37 /83 37 /84 37 /85 37 /86 37 /87 37 /88 37 /89 MULTI, 0 /THIS IS STANDARD SINGLE PRECISION CLL /MULTIPLY ROUTINE WHICH WAS ONCE SPA /USED. I'VE LEFT IT IN SINCE CMA CML IAC /THERE IS LOTS OF CORE LEFT OVER AND DCA MULMP1 /MAYBLE SOMEDAY I'LL NEED IT TO PUT DCA MULMP5 /IN A SUN OR SOMETHING. THIS IS THE TAD I MULTI /STANDARD DEC SUBROUTINE WITH DIFFERENT SNA /LABELS JMP MULPSN+2 SPA CMA CML IAC DCA MULMP2 TAD MULTHR DCA MULMP3 MULMP4, TAD MULMP1 RAR DCA MULMP1 TAD MULMP5 SZL TAD MULMP2 CLL RAR DCA MULMP5 ISZ MULMP3 JMP MULMP4 TAD MULMP1 RAR MULPSN, SZL JMP MULCMP DCA MULMP1 TAD MULMP5 MULMPZ, ISZ MULTI JMP I MULTI MULCMP, CMA CLL IAC DCA MULMP1 TAD MULMP5 CMA SZL IAC JMP MULMPZ MULTHR, 7764 MULMP1, 0 MULMP5, 0 MULMP2, 0 MULMP3, 0 / / SHIFTR DIVIDES THE AC BY TWO WHETHER POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE / AND IS CALLED FROM VARIOUS PLACES. NOT ENTIRELY MYSTERIOUS / SHIFTR, 0 CLL SPA CML IAC RAR JMP I SHIFTR / / POSCAL IS CALLED TO CALCULATE THE COORDINATE INCREMENTS / NECESSARY TO PRODUCE THE SHIP FIGURES. RATHER THAN DOING / A LOT OF EXPENSIVE MATH THIS DOES A QUICK PRODUCTION / OF 1, 2, AND 3 TIMES THE SIN AND COSINE VALUES FOUND / IN CALSIN AND CALCOS LEAVING THEM IN THE TABLE FOR / ONESET AND TWOSET. IF THE SCOPE WERE ANY BETTER / THIS PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE NEAR GOOD ENOUGH BUT.... / POSCAL, 0 TAD CALSIN DCA T10SIN TAD T10SIN CLL RAL DCA T20SIN TAD T10SIN TAD T20SIN DCA T30SIN TAD CALCOS DCA T10COS TAD T10COS CLL RAL DCA T20COS TAD T10COS TAD T20COS DCA T30COS JMP I POSCAL /**************************************************************** / VC8-E ROUTINES VDIV, 0 SMA / SKIP IF MINUS JMP VPLUS VMINUS, CMA IAC / COMPLEMENT RTR / DIVIDE BY FOUR AND P1777 / DELETE UPPER TWO BITS CMA IAC JMP I VDIV / RETURN VPLUS, RTR AND P1777 JMP I VDIV /***** VCLDX, 0 / INTENSIFY LAST POINT AND LOAD NEW X VALUE JMS VDIV / DIVIDE BY FOUR DISD / DISPLAY READY? JMP .-1 / WAIT. DIXY / INTENSIFY DILX / LOAD NEW X VALUE JMP I VCLDX / RETURN VCLDY, 0 JMS VDIV / DIVIDE BY FOUR DILY / LOAD NEW Y VALUE JMP I VCLDY P1777, 1777 /**************************************************************** *7000 /GENERAL PURPOSE SYMBOL GENERATOR / CHARS, 0 /ENTRY TO PLOT CHARACTER STRING DCA ADDR /STORE STRING ADDRESS TAD I ADDR /FETCH DOUBLE CHARACTER RTR /SHIFT RTR / FOR FIRST RTR / CHARACTER JMS CHAR /PLOT CHARACTER SKP /NORMAL RETURN -- SKIP JMP I CHARS /TERMINATION RETURN -- EXIT TAD I ADDR /RECALL DOUBLE CHARACTER ISZ ADDR /ADVANCE STRING ADDRESS JMS CHAR /PLOT CHARACTER JMP CHARS+2 /NORMAL RETURN -- REPEAT JMP I CHARS /TERMINATION RETURN -- EXIT / CHAR, 0 /ENTRY TO PLOT SINGLE CHARACTER AND K77 /MASK OUT UPPER BITS CLL RAL /MULTIPLY CODE BY TWO TAD TABLE /ADD TABLE BASE ADDRESS DCA POINT /CONSTRUCT POINTER TO 24-BIT CODE CMA /INITIALIZE COUNTER FOR DCA COUNT2 / TWO PLOT WORDS TAD I POINT /FETCH FIRST PLOT WORD ISZ POINT /INCREMENT POINTER FOR NEXT ONE SNA /SKIP IF NOT SPECIAL CHARACTER JMP SPCHAR /ELSE GO PROCESS IT DCA CURPLT /SAVE CURRENT PLOT BITS XPLOT, TAD KM6 /INITIALIZE 6-BIT DCA COUNT6 / COUNTER TAD YVALUE /RESET Y TEMPORARY DCA YTEMP / VALUE FOR CHARACTER TAD XVALUE /OUTPUT CURRENT DILX /X-VALUE TO CRT TAD XINCR /INCREMENT DCA XVALUE / ABSCISSA YPLOT, TAD CURPLT /RECALL CURRENT PLOT BITS CLL RAL /GET NEXT BIT DCA CURPLT /SAVE REMAINING PLOT BITS SNL /SKIP IF POINT TO PLOT JMP CNTINU /ELSE JUMP AHEAD TAD YTEMP /OUTPUT CURRENT DILY /Y-VALUE TO CRT DISD / READY TO DISPLAY THE POINT? JMP .-1 / NO, WE'LL WAIT. DIXY / SHOOT THE BEAM! CLA CLL /CLEAR AC TAD CURPLT /RECALL CURRENT PLOT BITS SNA CLA /SKIP IF POINTS REMAINING JMP WRDEND /ELSE WORD IS FINISHED CNTINU, TAD YTEMP /INCREMENT TEMPORARY TAD YINCR / Y-VALUE FOR NEXT DCA YTEMP / CHARACTER STEP ISZ COUNT6 /SKIP IF 6 BITS PLOTTED JMP YPLOT /ELSE PLOT NEXT ONE JMP XPLOT /GO UPDATE X-VALUE WRDEND, ISZ COUNT2 /SKIP IF ANOTHER BIT WORD JMP EXIT /ELSE EXIT TAD I POINT /FETCH SECOND BIT WORD SZA /SKIP IF NO PLOT POINTS JMP XPLOT-1 /ELSE GO PLOT THEM EXIT, TAD XVALUE /INCREMENT ABSCISSA TAD XINCR / FOR SPACE BETWEEN DCA XVALUE / SYMBOLS JMP I CHAR /EXIT FROM CHAR / SPCHAR, TAD I POINT /FETCH TRANSFER VECTOR DCA POINT /STORE AS INDIRECT ADDRESS JMP I POINT /GO TO APPROPRIATE ROUTINE SPACE, TAD XINCR /FETCH BASIC ABSCISSA INCREMENT CLL RTL /MULTIPLY BY FOUR AND JMP EXIT / GO CREATE SPACE CRLF, TAD INITX /"CARRIAGE RETURN" RESETS X DCA XVALUE / TO ITS ORIGINAL VALUE LF, TAD YINCR /"LINE FEED" CLL RTL / DECREMENTS THE CLL CIA RAL / Y-VALUE BY TAD YVALUE / EIGHT SCALE DCA YVALUE / STEPS JMP I CHAR /EXIT FROM CHAR RESET, TAD INITX /"RESET" RESETS DCA XVALUE / X AND Y TO TAD INITY / THEIR ORIGINAL JMP RESET-2 / VALUES TERM, ISZ CHAR /TERMINATE CODE CAUSES JMP I CHAR / EXIT TO P+2 / INITX, 0 /INITIAL X-VALUE INITY, 327 /INITIAL Y-VALUE XVALUE, 0 /CURRENT X-VALUE YVALUE, 0 /CURRENT Y-VALUE XINCR, 6 /BASIC X INCREMENT VALUE YINCR, 10 /BASIC Y INCREMENT VALUE YTEMP, 0 /TEMPORARY Y-VALUE CURPLT, 0 /CURRENT PLOT BITS ADDR, 0 /CURRENT STRING ADDRESS COUNT6, 0 /6-BIT COUNTER COUNT2, 0 /2-WORD COUNTER KM6, -6 /CONSTANT FOR COUNT6 K77, 77 /CHARACTER CODE MASK POINT, 0 /TABLE POINTER / / TABLE, .+1 /TABLE BASE ADDRESS 0 /SPECIAL CHARACTER (00) TERM /TERMINATION CODE 7611 / A 1176 7745 / B 4532 3641 / C 4122 7741 / D 4136 7745 / E 4541 7705 / F 501 7741 / G 5173 7710 / H 1077 4177 / I 4100 2040 / J 4037 7714 / K 2241 7740 / L 4040 7702 / M 277 7706 / N 3077 7741 / O 4177 7705 / P 502 3641 / Q 6176 7715 / R 2542 2245 / S 5122 177 / T 100 3740 / U 4037 1720 / V 4037 7730 / W 3077 4136 / X 3641 374 / Y 7403 6151 / Z 4543 7741 / [ 0 204 / \ 1020 4177 / ] 0 436 / ^ 400 0 /SPECIAL CHARACTER (37) RESET /RESET 0 /SPECIAL CHARACTER (40) SPACE /SPACE 5600 / ! 0 303 / " 0 1477 / # 7714 2277 / MARKER 2200 2313 / % 6462 7777 / BLOCK 7777 300 / ' 0 3641 / ( 0 4136 / ) 0 4040 / UNDERSCORE (52) 4040 1034 / + 1000 0 /SPECIAL CHARACTER (54) LF /LINE FEED 1010 / - 1000 4000 / . 0 2010 / / 402 3641 / 0 4136 4442 / 1 7740 4261 / 2 5146 2145 / 3 5321 1710 / 4 1077 4745 / 5 4531 7750 / 6 5070 6111 / 7 503 2255 / 8 5522 705 / 9 577 2400 / : 0 0 /SPECIAL CHARACTER (73) CRLF /CARRIAGE RETURN; LINE FEED 1024 / > 4200 1212 / = 1200 4224 / < 1000 255 / ? 300 / / HERE FOLLOW THE PACKED ASCII TEXTS FOR THE VARIOUS / VICTORY MESSAGES. PERSONS ADVENTEROUS TO FIND THIS MIGH CARE / TO TOGGLE IN SOME CUTE LITTLE MESSAGES OF THEIR OWN. / MESS0, 3773 MESS5, 7340 4040 4040 4000 MESS1, 1716 0500 MESS2, 2427 1700 MESS3, 2711 1623 4100 MESS4, 1617 0217 0431 0000 *7400 DISBUF, 0 / THE DISPLAY BUFFERS BEGIN HERE AND EXTEND UP SOMEWHERE TO / AROUND 7575 OR SO. / / / / / $ //////////////////////////// / / THIS IS THE END / /////////////////////////// From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 01:09:36 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:09:36 -0700 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F72AB20.9020503@gmail.com> Could this all be out of the former DDR and of suspect legal original purchase ? Cold war relics that nobody really wants to 'own' perhaps. On 3/27/2012 8:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/27/12 5:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. >> >> Is there a list of things that CHM did take? > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=sap+collection&type=exact&t=objects > > > is everything that has been cataloged. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 01:21:33 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:21:33 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8 PC8-E High Speed Reader Punch on ebay Message-ID: duno if anyones interested there a DEC PDP-8 PC8-E High Speed Reader Punch on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PC8-E-High-Speed-Reader-Punch-NO-RESERVE-/150787253684?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231b9ee5b4 From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 01:31:56 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:31:56 +0200 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F72AB20.9020503@gmail.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> <4F72AB20.9020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:09 AM, mc68010 wrote: > Could this all be out of the former DDR and of suspect legal original > purchase ? ?Cold war relics that nobody really wants to 'own' perhaps. > > > On 3/27/2012 8:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 3/27/12 5:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> >>>> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. >>> >>> >>> Is there a list of things that CHM did take? >> >> >> >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=sap+collection&type=exact&t=objects >> >> is everything that has been cataloged. >> > Don't know, but it (Dortmund) is only a 2h18m drive from my house, so I could pick up the digital/teletype stuff as spare parts for myself. But I have no idea to follow-up on this, to be honest. @Holm, could you help us wondering guys out here? -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 01:32:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:32:16 -0400 Subject: RX01/RX02 rack slides needed Message-ID: <4F72B070.7010405@neurotica.com> Hey folks. Does anyone here have a set of rack slides of the sort used by DEC RX01 and RX02 drives that they might be willing to part with on short notice? I'm willing to pay for them of course, but I'd like to keep it reasonable. :) Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 01:32:43 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:32:43 +0200 Subject: DEC PDP-8 PC8-E High Speed Reader Punch on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > duno if anyones interested > there a DEC PDP-8 PC8-E High Speed Reader Punch on ebay > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PC8-E-High-Speed-Reader-Punch-NO-RESERVE-/150787253684?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231b9ee5b4 Yeah, no reserve at $995 :) -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 28 01:37:39 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:37:39 +0100 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <011801cd0cad$471f94e0$d55ebea0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 28 March 2012 04:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HELP...please help to save something of this.. > > On 3/27/12 5:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. > > > > Is there a list of things that CHM did take? > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=sap+collection&type > =exact&t=objects > > is everything that has been cataloged. On a different thread it was said that this stuff was abandoned. Surely it doesn't really mean that anyone can just turn up and haul away what they want? Someone must own the building at the very least. I just wish I had more space and could justify the journey for some of the bigger DEC pieces. If there was someone there who I could talk to, I would like to see if it is possible to ship a couple of the smaller items. Regards Rob From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 01:39:33 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:39:33 -0500 Subject: uncomfortable ideas - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: guys chill out sigh On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > > On the other hand, just because worse evil B exists does not mean it's >>>> a bad idea to campaign against evil A. >>>> >>>> I think it's more his mind-bogglingly poor choice of venue than the >>> campaign itself. >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >> "Please do not burden those of us who refuse to consider the environment >> with uncomfortable ideas." >> >> If I wanted your opinion on what you think I said, I'd tell you what it > was. Most likely in a manner that would require the skills of a good > plasic surgeon to repair. > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll - > Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 28 02:06:03 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> I thought I had seen (and bought) some stupid things in my life put that >> takes the biscuit. Its hidious! Those ghastly bits of modern surface mount >> PCB with the numbers on. >> If you want an IBM clock (and IBM once made many clocks) get one of these:- >> >> http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/home-and-office/office/clock-wall/ibm-clock-1.html > > Anyone know where to get a replacement glass for one of those? I've > got a couple IBM clocks and one was a casualty of the recent move :( > > I don't expect there would be anything but NOS glass available, > probably even more rare than the clocks themselves. See http://www.kensclockclinic.com/. He should be able to help. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 02:07:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:07:00 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-8 PC8-E High Speed Reader Punch on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F72B894.2090302@neurotica.com> On 03/28/2012 02:32 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> duno if anyones interested >> there a DEC PDP-8 PC8-E High Speed Reader Punch on ebay >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-8-PC8-E-High-Speed-Reader-Punch-NO-RESERVE-/150787253684?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231b9ee5b4 > > Yeah, no reserve at $995 :) If only I had $995 to spare right now.. :-( -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 28 02:12:35 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bagpipes (was PDP-8 questions) In-Reply-To: <20120327194627.X43085@shell.lmi.net> References: <938D65DE8380434AB16B256AAC268FD7@EMACHINE> <20120327194627.X43085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Isn't it possible to get sustainable Rosewood? >> Pakistan seems to have lots of "rosewood" available for making bagpipes on >> the cheap. > > Have you heard what those SOUND like? I've heard recordings. I'm not foolish enough to buy one to experience it for myself. None of the pipers I know would go anywhere near them. I tend to favor US and Canada made pipes. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 28 02:16:32 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Took all the trees / put em in a tree museum - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F728074.8000703@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> <4F728074.8000703@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > On 27/03/12 10:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Why don't we just plant some more of the damn trees, then? >> >> If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . >> how long will it take if we plant 100 trees? > > Then you have to protect them for 100 years, too. Not so easy. I guess some > people on this list have never googled "deforestation". There are efforts going on to create harvestable and sustainable groves of dalbergia melanoxylon (African Blackwood) in Africa and Florida. This is the wood most commonly used to make bagpipes and other woodwind instruments. It's been going on since the early 1990s. I'm particularly fascinated by the Florida efforts. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 28 02:17:55 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <201203280505.BAA11265@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1332901817.29541.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201203280505.BAA11265@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> Because when the environment has been destroyed and there's no place >>> that the "damn" trees will grow [...] >> I think you really have no idea how difficult it is to destroy the >> environment to the extent that you propose. > > Quite easy; indeed, it's almost been done, or the things wouldn't be > endangered. > > Remember, "environment" means the whole environment, including (eg) > humans, not just things like weather and soil with all the other issues > wished away. To put it another way, trees grow very poorly in the > presence of humans who consider survival of the trees as a species of > small value compared to having the land cleared. To be fair, trees seem to come back just fine when an area is left to nature. The Chernobyl area is a testament to that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 28 02:24:40 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, William Donzelli wrote: >> It looks pretty clear to me that the panels are made of some sort of >> laminate or else you wouldn't have metal coping. > > Maybe, maybe not. Or both. > > You would want something to cover the top cut in the wood, because the > end grain takes stain very differently than the rest of the wood, and > looks really pretty bad. In either case, I think veneer would be a perfectly acceptable solution so long as the underlying wood is carefully chosen. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Mar 28 02:28:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:28:11 +0200 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> <4F72AB20.9020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120328072811.GB84687@beast.freibergnet.de> Sander Reiche wrote: > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:09 AM, mc68010 wrote: > > Could this all be out of the former DDR and of suspect legal original > > purchase ? ?Cold war relics that nobody really wants to 'own' perhaps. > > > > > > On 3/27/2012 8:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >> On 3/27/12 5:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>>> > >>>> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. > >>> > >>> > >>> Is there a list of things that CHM did take? > >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=sap+collection&type=exact&t=objects > >> > >> is everything that has been cataloged. > >> > > > > Don't know, but it (Dortmund) is only a 2h18m drive from my house, so > I could pick up the digital/teletype stuff as spare parts for myself. > But I have no idea to follow-up on this, to be honest. > > @Holm, could you help us wondering guys out here? > > -- > ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, > ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr There are already some that are interested in the smaller parts from this collection. It turned out that this should be really the rest of that was CHM rejected in the past. Unfortunately I don't have a contact email address of Alex handy. Alex in the robotrontechnik.de - forum is the guy that has access to the stuff and knows what is already taken. The DEC stuff (RA81, HBC50) is already gone. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 28 02:55:38 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:55:38 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5283BBEB-B06D-468E-8047-667AF4617A18@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Mar 28, at 12:24 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> It looks pretty clear to me that the panels are made of some sort of >>> laminate or else you wouldn't have metal coping. >> >> Maybe, maybe not. Or both. >> >> You would want something to cover the top cut in the wood, because >> the >> end grain takes stain very differently than the rest of the wood, and >> looks really pretty bad. > > In either case, I think veneer would be a perfectly acceptable > solution so long as the underlying wood is carefully chosen. Perhaps someone associated with Bletchley could wander over, make an examination, take a closeup photo or two and report back as to the construction (hint, hint). From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Mar 28 05:13:27 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can you ID these modules? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1332929607.90601.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Collins built at least one computer. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/collins --Bill --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Doug Salot wrote: > From: Doug Salot > Subject: Re: Can you ID these modules? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 7:18 PM > Thanks, guys.???Let me > know if anybody wants them for the cost of postage. > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Rob Doyle > wrote: > > > On 3/27/2012 5:37 PM, Doug Salot wrote: > > > >> Hmm, my pics didn't show up? > >> > >> Here are direct links: > >> http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxg/4 > >> > >> http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxe/4 > >> > >> They look like 1960's-style discrete logic to me. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Paul > Anderson? > wrote: > >> > >>? I think Colins made a version of the R390 > receiver used a lot by the > >>> military (and NSA). Any idea how old they are > or if you can send pics? > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug > Salot > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Anybody know what these were from? > >>>> > >>>> Labled OS28, RS15, and > TR57.???One of them with the name "Collins." > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > That's the correct logo for Collins Radio. > > > > Rob. > > > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 28 07:34:21 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:34:21 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120328123420.GA27585@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Fred Cisin [120327 22:57]: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Why don't we just plant some more of the damn trees, then? > > If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . > how long will it take if we plant 100 trees? Let's see, if we get nine women pregnant then we can have a baby in a month right? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 28 09:30:36 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:30:36 -0600 Subject: uncomfortable ideas - Re: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1332686018.72482.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1332807820.37543.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4F710E02.1020804@neurotica.com> <201203270205.WAA20459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F724F73.4010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , Adrian Stoness writes: > guys chill out sigh No. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 09:41:21 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:41:21 -0500 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <4F70DC2D.3060303@bitsavers.org> <4F72803E.70006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F732311.10700@gmail.com> On 03/27/2012 10:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/27/12 5:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> This appears to be the stuff CHM didn't take. >> >> Is there a list of things that CHM did take? > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=sap+collection&type=exact&t=objects > > > is everything that has been cataloged. Al/Holm, Do you know if there were duplicates of some items? Someone on the NMoC list noticed a few items (e.g. ME29, FDS640 and DRS20) which are in the CHM list but also in the photos that Holm provided. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 09:43:09 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:43:09 -0500 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F72865D.50505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> <4F72865D.50505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F73237D.8030801@gmail.com> On 03/27/2012 10:32 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/27/2012 9:24 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> are you making fun of my whale oil thread? lol > > Ah... another WD-40 user found! That was WD-39. WD-40 uses well snake oil. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 09:50:36 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:50:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F73253C.1030006@gmail.com> On 03/27/2012 09:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Why don't we just plant some more of the damn trees, then? > > If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . > how long will it take if we plant 100 trees? One year for the alpha, followed by 99 years of development until stable product release? From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 28 10:06:00 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:06:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, an humble suggestion: 1) Use cheap pine with a nice stain to make some "temporary" panels 2) plant a rosewood tree 3) maintain the machine for ~100 years 4) cut down your rosewood tree, make "real" panels out of it, and sell the excess rosewood to pay for electricity to run the machine. 5) meantime and most important, get back to classic-computer discussions on this list PS: Philip H., you are absolutely positively the man! I thought nothing could change the currently sagging signal/noise ratio on the list and my heart sank when I saw the 87k archive ... but then! / SPACE WAR / / INTERPLANETARY DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ON YOUR / LAB-8/E .... Now *that* is the kind of post we need more of! Right on! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 10:08:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:08:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you _seriously_ believe that buying the amount of rosewood to make a > cover for one straight-8 will make any difference to the rate of > destruction of said forest? I'm late to all this, because my Internet has been out all weekend, but yes. If you buy it new, you are contributing a lot more than you think, because you are one more data point confirming the existence of a market out there for the foresters. It's not entirely dissimilar to elephant ivory and poaching; no, buying one or two little trinkets made of ivory doesn't mean you've personally shot an elephant for a fraction of its tusks, but it does produce a perceived demand. It's not like someone registers an interest in some wood and a logger goes out and chops down a tree for them; there are frightening differential equations that can describe these markets and how the suppliers attempt to keep up with and anticipate demand. Also, depending on where you get your recycled rosewood, you could be doing the same thing if you're not getting it from people who are very specifically trying to quell the overconsumption of rare woods, because you're still indicating a demand in rosewood. Honestly, the argument that "I'm only taking a little, and there are few enough straight-8s in the world to ever make a difference" is foolish on its face. I'd expect better from the members of this list, because you're all quite smart enough to understand the complexities involved in an interconnected, byzantine system like this. Short answer: get it recycled if you must, or from a sustainable farm. After all, we all seem to get our computers "recycled", no? - Dave From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Mar 28 10:09:55 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:09:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <4F72370C.5020905@neurotica.com> <201203272257.SAA06426@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F72558D.10402@neurotica.com> <20120327194814.W43085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120328150858.M16322@kw.igs.net> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote > If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . > how long will it take if we plant 100 trees? The latency is the same, but the throughput is higher. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 10:21:15 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:21:15 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > In either case, I think veneer would be a perfectly acceptable solution so > long as the underlying wood is carefully chosen. Unless it is a full-on museum quality restoration, you are correct. One thing comes to mind with all this - it is possible that, in these early days of DEC and their "interesting" construction consistency (paint jobs, anyone?), it is possible that either hardwood or laminate is historically accurate. Maybe even hardwood on one side, and laminate on the other. It is also possible that various types of hardwood could have been used - whatever DEC could get at the time. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Mar 28 10:35:44 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:35:44 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/27/12 2:55 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: >> If these are the sort of panels at issue: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/theodric/6296473924/ > >Wow, that is a nice rack. > >-- >Will > > > Even before I scrolled down I thought, "That looks like the Bletchley Park -8." And I was right! Not hard, though - I've never seen another in such beautiful condition. -- Ian From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Mar 28 11:58:10 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:58:10 -0700 Subject: Can you ID these modules? In-Reply-To: <1332929607.90601.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1332929607.90601.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting -- that thing was a monster. Their patent includes full schematics. These modules could be from a computer, but only one of the labels matches the schematics for that machine -- RS15 was a flip-flop. Perhaps OS = oscilator, and TR = transfer register. On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 3:13 AM, William Maddox wrote: > Collins built at least one computer. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/collins > > --Bill > > > --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Doug Salot wrote: > > > From: Doug Salot > > Subject: Re: Can you ID these modules? > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 7:18 PM > > Thanks, guys. Let me > > know if anybody wants them for the cost of postage. > > > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Rob Doyle > > wrote: > > > > > On 3/27/2012 5:37 PM, Doug Salot wrote: > > > > > >> Hmm, my pics didn't show up? > > >> > > >> Here are direct links: > > >> http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxg/4 > > >> > > >> http://tinypic.com/m/fk2zxe/4 > > >> > > >> They look like 1960's-style discrete logic to me. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Paul > > Anderson > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I think Colins made a version of the R390 > > receiver used a lot by the > > >>> military (and NSA). Any idea how old they are > > or if you can send pics? > > >>> > > >>> Paul > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug > > Salot > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Anybody know what these were from? > > >>>> > > >>>> Labled OS28, RS15, and > > TR57. One of them with the name "Collins." > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > That's the correct logo for Collins Radio. > > > > > > Rob. > > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 28 11:58:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120328095311.K62463@shell.lmi.net> WAITAMINIT! Is this a SIDE panel? If so, just put another identical machine next to it! Then neither machine needs side panels. Other side? Another machine! Last machine in the row? If it's not against a wall, just keep adding more machines! If you don't want to circumnavigate the globe, just plant a rosewood tree alongside the last machine in the row (if you feel the need, label that "In Progress") Front panel? LEAVE IT OPEN! or at most a sheet of plex. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 12:17:06 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:17:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <20120328095311.K62463@shell.lmi.net> References: <201203272048.QAA04761@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120327140225.O26292@shell.lmi.net> <4F722D80.2020708@neurotica.com> <20120328095311.K62463@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > WAITAMINIT! > > Is this a SIDE panel? ?If so, just put another identical machine next to > it! ?Then neither machine needs side panels. This is the table-top version. It's the guts of the rack-mount version with smoked plexi over the cards and wooden side panels down by the toggle-switch front panel. The rackmount version needs no rosewood. It has blue-painted metal sides and can laterally stack as you've described. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 14:25:21 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:25:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7365A1.7010401@gmail.com> On 03/28/2012 10:35 AM, Ian King wrote: > Even before I scrolled down I thought, "That looks like the Bletchley Park > -8." And I was right! Not hard, though - I've never seen another in such > beautiful condition. -- Ian Technically it's the NMoC -8, not the Bletchley Park -8. :-) Unless BP have acquired an -8 of their own... From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Mar 28 14:37:20 2012 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:37:20 -0500 Subject: Complete "Amateur Computer Society" Newsletter Available Online In-Reply-To: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201203221234.35973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4F736870.7080002@tx.rr.com> On 3/22/2012 2:34 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > The Amateur Computer Society (ACS) was founded by Stephen B. Gray in May, 1966. The ACS was for those who "are building or operating a homemade computer from their home". An interesting requirement was that the computer had to at least perform "automatic multiplication and division". In practice, membership was open to anyone who had a "serious" digital computer operating from their home. In my case that included a RPC-4000 ;-) > > Since I had been a member of the ACS, I had searched everywhere online for the complete set of ACS Newsletters - and found only isolated copies of individual newsletters. > > I did find that Stephen Gray had donated his original complete set to the Babbage Institute. Subsequently, I did a detailed search of the Computer History Museum's (CHM) archives via their Collections Department. I was excited to find that the CHM also had a complete set of the ACS Newsletter. I requested that they scan and make a PDF copy (including OCR) of same - and for a modest scanning fee they did so. It is now available to the world (free) via CHM's website: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102654910 > > Go to the bottom of the page where there is a link to the PDF. > > For those who would like to know the earliest history of "home computers", I think you'll find it a fascinating read... > > Cheers, > Lyle Oh, that's marvelous, thanks. -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 15:50:41 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:50:41 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> On 03/28/2012 10:08 AM, David Riley wrote: > If you buy it new, you are contributing a lot more than you think, > because you are one more data point confirming the existence of a market > out there for the foresters. Surely the foresters are clever enough to look at the quantities being requested though, so the fact that one person is requesting enough to make some PDP-8 panels counts for far less than someone requesting enough to build a few hundred pieces of furniture[1]? I'd be surprised if they just look at the number of demands and don't take into account the amounts. [1] or, put a better way, one person in 6 months requesting enough to make PDP-8 panels is tiny in comparison to n people over the same time period requesting enough to make furniture. From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Mar 28 15:50:39 2012 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:50:39 -0400 Subject: HELP...please help to save something of this.. In-Reply-To: <4F73237D.8030801@gmail.com> References: <20120326202239.GA23915@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F70D73A.4090503@neurotica.com> <007c01cd0b9a$88970480$99c50d80$@ntlworld.com> <4F724431.5050900@hachti.de> <4F7250B9.3040004@neurotica.com> <4F727896.8070001@brouhaha.com> <4F72865D.50505@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F73237D.8030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F73799F.2090800@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/28/2012 10:43 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > That was WD-39. WD-40 uses well snake oil. Naw... you have it wrong. The 'WD' stands for 'Well Dweller'. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFPc3mfCFu3bIiwtTARAtAsAJ45PjHQ2cBjXuHmTBBAkNC9deXLPACdGXZK fdyQxC1i/vBGPx2D04HA9kk= =QZ2a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 28 16:05:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> References: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120328140425.P71947@shell.lmi.net> Even tiny amounts can accumulate with other tiny amounts for a larger grand total. (After a while the style settles down a bit and it begins to tell you things you really need to know, like the fact that the fabulously beautiful planet Bethselamin is now so worried about the cumulative erosion by ten billion visiting tourists a year that any net imbalance between the amount you eat and the amount you excrete whilst on the planet is surgically removed from your bodyweight when you leave: so every time you go to the lavatory it is vitally important to get a receipt.) -HHGTTG From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 28 14:31:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:31:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <201203272124.q2RLOX5H081517@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Mar 27, 12 04:14:17 pm Message-ID: > I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub > every afternoon and then comes back to type here. s/pub/hospital/ No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I am visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 28 14:42:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:42:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Mar 27, 12 07:22:44 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > I thought I had seen (and bought) some stupid things in my life put that > > takes the biscuit. Its hidious! Those ghastly bits of modern surface mount > > PCB with the numbers on. > > If you want an IBM clock (and IBM once made many clocks) get one of these:- > > > > http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/home-and-office/office/clock-wall/ibm-clock-1.html > > Anyone know where to get a replacement glass for one of those? I've > got a couple IBM clocks and one was a casualty of the recent move :( I asusme it's not just a flat disk of glass (which is what most UK wall clocks from Smiths, Gents, etc use). Cutting a glass disk is 'interesting', and if you do iy yourself, expect a lot of breakages, but it isn't too hard for somebody used to working with glass. > > I don't expect there would be anything but NOS glass available, > probably even more rare than the clocks themselves. A fair number of clock parts (for much older clocks) are either being remanufacutred or made-to-order. You may well find a company that maks glasses for clocks whoc could make soemthing for this unit. Be warned it will not be cheap! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 28 14:45:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:45:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Mar 27, 12 03:23:56 pm Message-ID: > > I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub > > every afternoon and then comes back to type here. > > > Now that's an equally plausible theory! FWIW, the only alcohol that is used in significant quantities here is CH_3.CHOH CH_3, and I certainly don't drink that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 28 14:29:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:29:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Mar 27, 12 01:28:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > >> hello all, > >> yesterday my wife and I emptied our garage(25 years of diverse things=20 > > > > I hope most of it went abck i nthe garage (or in other suitable > > accomodation). It sounds like you haev some intersting machiens. > > I'm sorry, I'll type that again... 'I hope most of it went back in the garage (or in other suitable accomodation). It sounds like you have some interesting amchines.' > I can only assume that you type with your nose. It's the only thing that > would explain that mess. Either that or you've got the equivalent to > a 2400 baud brain running 110 baud fingers. :) It's partly the latter (I must improve the FIFO between my brain and my hands), it's partly that I have other things on my mind right now. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 28 16:22:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 17:22:45 -0400 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F738125.3050200@neurotica.com> On 03/28/2012 03:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I always assumed something more colorful, like Tony heads to the pub >> every afternoon and then comes back to type here. > > s/pub/hospital/ > > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I am > visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... Badness. Best wishes for your father. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 28 16:47:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:47:41 -0700 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: from "Gene Buckle" at Mar 27, 12 03:23:56 pm, Message-ID: <4F73248D.10391.1775CD5@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Mar 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, the only alcohol that is used in significant quantities here is > CH_3.CHOH CH_3, and I certainly don't drink that. Oh, there are other plentiful alcohols--how about lanolin on toast? You do have sheep over there in Blighty, don't you? :) --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 17:06:58 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spring cleaning Computer sale In-Reply-To: <1D076BFBACB54F51AC537D7EDA9DDA95@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <1D076BFBACB54F51AC537D7EDA9DDA95@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, TeoZ wrote: > Coming here to scam people now? Ran out of places to get kicked out of? That's a rather serious accusation. What prompts such a statement? -- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 28 17:28:18 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:28:18 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> References: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <016c01cd0d32$14af4890$3e0dd9b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 28 March 2012 21:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-8 questions > > On 03/28/2012 10:08 AM, David Riley wrote: > > If you buy it new, you are contributing a lot more than you think, > > because you are one more data point confirming the existence of a > > market out there for the foresters. > > Surely the foresters are clever enough to look at the quantities being > requested though, so the fact that one person is requesting enough to make > some PDP-8 panels counts for far less than someone requesting enough to > build a few hundred pieces of furniture[1]? I'd be surprised if they just look > at the number of demands and don't take into account the amounts. > > [1] or, put a better way, one person in 6 months requesting enough to make > PDP-8 panels is tiny in comparison to n people over the same time period > requesting enough to make furniture. Let's do a back of the envelope calculation. A Dalbergia latifolia grows up to 40m high with a girth of up to 2m and is harvested after 30-40 years (http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/Products/AFDbases/af/asp/Species Info.asp?SpID=1726). Let's assume it is 2m girth all the way from top to bottom to account for the branches. That is a radius of 0.63m, for a cylindrical volume of about 50 cubic metres for one tree. Let's say that one person wants a piece of rosewood that is 50cm x 50cm x 1cm. That is 0.0025 cubic metres, so a single fully grown tree would satisfy 20,000 people once a year. The population of the world is 6 billion. Let's assume that on average 1 in 1,000 people needs a piece of rosewood in a year for something they believe to be a one-off that won't do any harm, that is 6,000,000 people. That is 300 trees per year. To sustain this rate of consumption would require a plantation of 12,000 trees with 300 trees planted every year. I have not been able to find out how many such trees there are in the world today, or rather, I ran out of patience to search for that data too :-) There could be all sorts of errors in my assumptions, like which tree it really is, how often it is harvested, how much useful timber you actually get from a tree, what proportion of people want "one-off" bits of rosewood etc. Regards Rob From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 28 17:34:59 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:34:59 -0400 Subject: Spring cleaning Computer sale References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <1D076BFBACB54F51AC537D7EDA9DDA95@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <1DA14BD0CFF749B2BB8532AD1753ABFB@hd2600xt6a04f7> Google the name, check out any of the mac related forums, ask around. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:06 PM Subject: Re: Spring cleaning Computer sale > On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, TeoZ wrote: > >> Coming here to scam people now? Ran out of places to get kicked out of? > > That's a rather serious accusation. What prompts such a statement? > > > -- > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 28 17:56:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:56:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <016c01cd0d32$14af4890$3e0dd9b0$@ntlworld.com> References: , <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com>, <016c01cd0d32$14af4890$3e0dd9b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F7334BD.934.1B69807@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Mar 2012 at 23:28, Rob Jarratt wrote: > A Dalbergia latifolia grows up to 40m high with a girth of up to 2m > and is harvested after 30-40 years > (http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/Products/AFDbases/af/asp/S > pecies Info.asp?SpID=1726). Let's assume it is 2m girth all the way > from top to bottom to account for the branches. That is a radius of > 0.63m, for a cylindrical volume of about 50 cubic metres for one tree. > Let's say that one person wants a piece of rosewood that is 50cm x > 50cm x 1cm. That is 0.0025 cubic metres, so a single fully grown tree > would satisfy 20,000 people once a year. I take it that you aren't employed as a sawyer. A lot of the exotics do not grow in a straight pole as, say, Douglas-fir. Inherent flaws in the wood, checking during drying and the undesirability of sapwood all contribute to waste--and there is a lot of it in hardwoods, particularly when you're after nice clean blemish-free dimensional planks. You may want to do some research on yields before you do your figuring. This stuff ain't PVC that you can squirt out in any shape or length. An awful lot of rosewood goes into small pieces, such as pen casings, fretboards and small flutes and headjoints. A good website on rosewoods, real and otherwise: http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_discussion_rosewoods. htm --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 18:58:10 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:58:10 -0500 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I asusme it's not just a flat disk of glass (which is what most UK wall > clocks from Smiths, Gents, etc use). Definitely a curved glass "bowl." I've never worked with glass myself but it will definitely be more akin to casting a new car windshield than just cutting plate. > A fair number of clock parts (for much older clocks) are either being > remanufacutred or made-to-order. You may well find a company that maks > glasses for clocks whoc could make soemthing for this unit. Be warned it > will not be cheap! Yeah, so I figured. My best bet is to find a trashed IBM clock as a glass donor. -j From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 28 19:40:04 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 17:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Jason T wrote: > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I asusme it's not just a flat disk of glass (which is what most UK wall >> clocks from Smiths, Gents, etc use). > > Definitely a curved glass "bowl." I've never worked with glass myself > but it will definitely be more akin to casting a new car windshield > than just cutting plate. > >> A fair number of clock parts (for much older clocks) are either being >> remanufacutred or made-to-order. You may well find a company that maks >> glasses for clocks whoc could make soemthing for this unit. Be warned it >> will not be cheap! > > Yeah, so I figured. My best bet is to find a trashed IBM clock as a > glass donor. A quick look at Google with "clock" "glass" "replacement" tells me that replacement curved glass is neither hard to find nor expensive. Here are some that look good: http://www.ofrei.com/page739.html http://www.timesavers.com/ http://www.atsclock.com/items/ClockParts-clock_crystals_glass.cfm?catID=18 http://www.norkro.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 20:27:02 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:27:02 -0700 Subject: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> This is kind of cool. No bidders with with a few hours left. If it was only closer. http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=695038 That vintage right ? It's hard to tell anymore. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 28 20:42:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:42:09 -0600 Subject: forestry (was: PDP-8 questions) In-Reply-To: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> References: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: This has jack-all to do with PDP-8 anymore, so please do everyone a favor and change the subject line in your replies for easy filtering. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 20:50:11 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spring cleaning Computer sale In-Reply-To: <1DA14BD0CFF749B2BB8532AD1753ABFB@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <1D076BFBACB54F51AC537D7EDA9DDA95@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1DA14BD0CFF749B2BB8532AD1753ABFB@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, TeoZ wrote: > Google the name, check out any of the mac related forums, ask around. If it's truly the same individual then 'nuff said. -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 28 20:54:32 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:54:32 -0700 Subject: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> References: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 6:27 PM -0700 3/28/12, mc68010 wrote: >This is kind of cool. No bidders with with a few hours left. If it >was only closer. > >http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=695038 > >That vintage right ? It's hard to tell anymore. No hard drives, no software. I think it's vintage, as in early 90's, but not sure. My experience with IBM gear is nearly non-existant. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 28 22:46:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Family illness [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203290346.XAA28492@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > s/pub/hospital/ > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I > am visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... That sucks. My parents were in medical care far more than I might wish, late in their lives, so perhaps I have some vague idea what it must be like for you. Here's hoping with you. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 28 23:12:41 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <016c01cd0d32$14af4890$3e0dd9b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F7379A1.2030409@gmail.com> <016c01cd0d32$14af4890$3e0dd9b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201203290412.AAA28989@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > cylindrical volume of about 50 cubic metres for one tree. Let's say > that one person wants a piece of rosewood that is 50cm x 50cm x 1cm. > That is 0.0025 cubic metres, so a single fully grown tree would > satisfy 20,000 people once a year. That's assuming that (a) all the pieces can be fit into the tree's volume with no waste, (b) nothing is lost in cutting them out, and (c) any part of the tree is perfectly suitable for any use. Neither (a) nor (b) is likely to be true, and, while I don't know rosewood, I know that with the woods I do know something about, (c) is not true. I have nothing but wild guesses as to how much is wasted; for what it's worth, my wild guess is that the wastage is at least half the volume. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 29 00:18:39 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: twinax cards, linux, and hercules Message-ID: A question for those of you who play with Hercules... Are twinax cards supported under Linux such that a 5250 terminal can be connected and work? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Mar 29 00:27:03 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:27:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 questions In-Reply-To: <179B37C84E654E76BADF448ABCDE0C67@Edicons.local> Message-ID: On 3/25/12 11:47 PM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > The North Star Horizon had a wood (plywood I think) upper case. > Which remindes me I'm still looking for a Northstar in the UK. > ? > Rod Smallwood Some of the horizons had wood casing. Some were just plain metal From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 00:30:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 01:30:21 -0400 Subject: twinax cards, linux, and hercules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F73F36D.4060209@neurotica.com> On 03/29/2012 01:18 AM, David Griffith wrote: > A question for those of you who play with Hercules... Are twinax cards > supported under Linux such that a 5250 terminal can be connected and work? Not to my knowledge. I think the best you'll be able to do (which isn't really all that bad) is to pick up a 3174 with Ethernet or TR capability, network that to the Linux box, and hang terminals off of that. I know some people have done that with great success, and if I can ever find an appropriate flavor of 3174, I plan to do that myself. I have a beautiful 3290 here, with keyboard and key, and am looking for any other 3270-compatible terminals; I'd love any number of 3277, 3278, or 3279 terminals if anyone can spare some. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 00:49:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 01:49:55 -0400 Subject: Multiprise 3000, was Re: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: References: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F73F803.4090707@neurotica.com> On 03/28/2012 09:54 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:27 PM -0700 3/28/12, mc68010 wrote: >> This is kind of cool. No bidders with with a few hours left. If it was >> only closer. >> >> http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=695038 >> >> That vintage right ? It's hard to tell anymore. > > No hard drives, no software. ...neither of which are impossible to find. Tough, but not impossible. > I think it's vintage, as in early 90's, but not sure. My experience with > IBM gear is nearly non-existant. This is an IBM Multiprise 3000, which made its debut in, I think, 2000 or so. It's basically an S/390 G5 (no connection to the PowerPC processor of the same name) with a scaled-down I/O subsystem. It can be either uniprocessor or dual. They're really nice machines, very compact for a real mainframe, and quite fast as long as you don't do extremely heavy I/O...basically it's got the same I/O as the rest of the computing world, which is wimpy and puny when compared to real mainframes. These machines are well-suited for S/390 software development for this reason. They're popping up everywhere nowadays due to the IBM mainframe world having gone 64-bit several years ago, and the subsequent de-supporting of the 31-bit stuff. (no I didn't mean "32" ;)) I have one of these machines, and I think I have at least 99% of what's required to bring it up, including some of the very hard-to-find software and documentation, but I've not yet spent the time to attack it. If anyone can help with that, please contact me privately. This is something I want very much to be able to do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 00:51:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 01:51:21 -0400 Subject: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> References: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F73F859.2060704@neurotica.com> On 03/28/2012 09:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This is kind of cool. No bidders with with a few hours left. If it was > only closer. > > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=695038 > > That vintage right ? It's hard to tell anymore. Not terribly vintage; see my other mail. What IS vintage is the peripheral set. That machine is obviously a new CPU that was swapped in to replace a bigger, older one. Multiprise 3000 systems like this can (and often do) have parallel channel interfaces installed, to allow them to connect to the full range of peripherals that were sold with their predecessors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 01:13:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:13:09 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4F73FD75.9090501@neurotica.com> On 03/27/2012 03:25 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> You got screwed. > > Are you sure, this is Pixar early history. The same Pixar that is a > mainstream, big budget movie producer familiar to many millions the > world over. Yes, I know hwho Pixar is, and I know what a Pixar Image Computer is. It's good stuff. This, however, is just a front panel, and a particularly boring one at that. > It also looks like the first version, which I suppose is even more rare > than the P-II. Eh. > Someone will buy this. I doubt it. I guess we'll see! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Mar 28 07:09:22 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:09:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 questions Message-ID: <201203281209.q2SC9Mlj018889@hugin2.pdp8online.com> > You're looking for the spacewar you're citing above? > > I currently don't know where I have the original source - I modified it > to fit my LAB-8/e Real time clock and a pair of joysticks.... > Thanks for an on topic reply :-). I have the original of that version but its stripped down enough that its only sort of spacewar. I had heard there was a better 4k version and was hoping someone had it. I'm going with laminate, can we let the other thread die? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 01:32:31 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 07:32:31 +0100 Subject: twinax cards, linux, and hercules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2BE5464EA2A646DEB164738DDD15FFF4@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: 29 March 2012 06:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: twinax cards, linux, and hercules > > > > A question for those of you who play with Hercules... Are > twinax cards > supported under Linux such that a 5250 terminal can be > connected and work? > NO. Hercules doesn't support any real IBM hardware. You can connect a real 3270 terminal but only by using the TN3270 support in the later 3174s. I have such a setup. I don't know about remote controllers for 5250 , but if you had an AS/400 or System/I box with a 5250 and TN3270 then that could connect to Hercules. > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 29 01:35:11 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:35:11 +0200 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4F73FD75.9090501@neurotica.com> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> <4F73FD75.9090501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120329063510.GA25092@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 02:13:09AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > is. It's good stuff. This, however, is just a front panel, and a > particularly boring one at that. Agreed, but people spend crazy money on front panels. And this one has provenance (assuming it isn't fake). > >It also looks like the first version, which I suppose is even more rare > >than the P-II. > > Eh. It looks like a front panel from the original PIC, about 120 made (or sold according to WP). The PIC version II has a darker texture. > >Someone will buy this. > > I doubt it. I guess we'll see! Hey, look! One bid! Cheers, Pontus. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 29 01:45:35 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:45:35 -0400 Subject: twinax cards, linux, and hercules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F74050F.3050303@atarimuseum.com> Uggghhhh.... Linux? I doubt it, but never tried. It was hard enough getting decent WinNT drivers for twinax cards.... The Hercules card itself is a very rudimentary driver and is essentially the basis for much of the video card drivers adopted standards so you shouldn't have any issue with that, but the Twinax will most likely give you some problems above WinNT David Griffith wrote: > > A question for those of you who play with Hercules... Are twinax > cards supported under Linux such that a 5250 terminal can be connected > and work? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 01:49:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 02:49:13 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120329063510.GA25092@Update.UU.SE> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> <4F73FD75.9090501@neurotica.com> <20120329063510.GA25092@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4F7405E9.7060207@neurotica.com> On 03/29/2012 02:35 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> is. It's good stuff. This, however, is just a front panel, and a >> particularly boring one at that. > > Agreed, but people spend crazy money on front panels. And this one has > provenance (assuming it isn't fake). > >>> It also looks like the first version, which I suppose is even more rare >>> than the P-II. >> >> Eh. > > It looks like a front panel from the original PIC, about 120 made (or > sold according to WP). The PIC version II has a darker texture. > >>> Someone will buy this. >> >> I doubt it. I guess we'll see! > > Hey, look! One bid! Seriously?? I have to say I'm quite surprised. The poor guy still needs to find a new wife, though. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 02:01:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 03:01:41 -0400 Subject: twinax cards, linux, and hercules In-Reply-To: <4F74050F.3050303@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F74050F.3050303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4F7408D5.4060206@neurotica.com> He's talking about the IBM mainframe emulator called Hercules, not the Hercules Graphics Card. That said, I'm pretty sure Linux supports the Hercules Graphics Card, or at least I think it did in pre-1.0 kernels way back when. -Dave On 03/29/2012 02:45 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Uggghhhh.... Linux? I doubt it, but never tried. It was hard enough > getting decent WinNT drivers for twinax cards.... > > The Hercules card itself is a very rudimentary driver and is essentially > the basis for much of the video card drivers adopted standards so you > shouldn't have any issue with that, but the Twinax will most likely give > you some problems above WinNT > > David Griffith wrote: >> >> A question for those of you who play with Hercules... Are twinax cards >> supported under Linux such that a 5250 terminal can be connected and >> work? >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 29 02:44:42 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120329063510.GA25092@Update.UU.SE> References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> <4F73FD75.9090501@neurotica.com> <20120329063510.GA25092@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Mar 2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 02:13:09AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> is. It's good stuff. This, however, is just a front panel, and a >> particularly boring one at that. > > Agreed, but people spend crazy money on front panels. And this one has > provenance (assuming it isn't fake). The crazy money spent on front panels is for front panels with lots of switches and blinkenlights! I don't think the Pixar one blinks or switches. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 03:35:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:35:38 -0400 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <4F710257.9080605@mail.msu.edu> References: <20120326213145.GA13209@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F70E66E.3000908@gmail.com> <4F70F36C.2040502@gmail.com> <4F70F5FD.3090209@neurotica.com> <4F710257.9080605@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F741EDA.9010300@neurotica.com> On 03/26/2012 07:57 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> This one eBay is original and probably goes for less. Although who knows >>> what IBM clocks go for on ebay. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1950s-1960s-IBM-Round-Office-Style-Wall-Clock-Double-Sided-Industrial-/140729998272 >> >> I bid on that just this morning. :) It'll make a nice wall clock for >> the museum. I hope to be able to get it running. If it's a slave >> clock, I'll have to design a driver for it. > > Anything with a second hand on it like that one will usually run fine > off of regular AC; it probably has hardware to allow it to sync with a > master clock near the top of the hour, but it's in no way required to > run the clock as just a standard clock. Oh ok, very cool, thanks for the info! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 29 05:12:56 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:12:56 +0200 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4F6F4CCD.1060704@telegraphics.com.au> <4F70757D.5030208@comcast.net> <4F70C89A.70000@neurotica.com> <20120327072525.GA21390@Update.UU.SE> <4F73FD75.9090501@neurotica.com> <20120329063510.GA25092@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120329101256.GA12057@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:44:42AM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > The crazy money spent on front panels is for front panels with lots > of switches and blinkenlights! I don't think the Pixar one blinks > or switches. I'm well aware :) I've looked at quite a few auctions for front panels, two examples: http://cgi.ebay.com/160597433178 http://cgi.ebay.com/150771809042 But the Pixar panel still sticks out among computer. I think prices for "just the panel" of an SGI "Jurassic Classic" would sell for lots as well. /P From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Mar 29 05:17:10 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:17:10 +0100 Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7757082DA9A5476F8E33196C9AC25EF0@Edicons.local> Hi Jon Well there's a turn up for the book. They must have made at least two then!! I also worked with another UK machine made by Digico Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Griver Sent: 29 March 2012 10:41 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer *Dear Rod,* ** *Feeling nostaligic, I googled 'Arcturus Minicomputer', and your letter below was the only reference I found. I know the letter is from 2007. I hope the email address is still in use.* ** *I programmed an Arcturus minicomputer at the Atkinson Morley Hospital in Wimbledon from 1973 to 1976. It was used to do image processing on pictures from the first CT scanner in the world, which was located in that hospital.* ** *All the programming I did on the machine was in assembler. The computer did not have a disk operating system. Every action involved first loading the program you need from paper tape, then the data, etc.* ** *The first thing I did was to write a very rudimentary disk operating system. It took 6 weeks, but it worked.* ** *I knew that Arcturus had installed the monitor system in Gatwick.* ** *Best Wishes,* ** ** *Jon Griver* ** ** ** *Fri Mar 30 02:45:49 CDT 2007* - Previous message: On topic? Looking for old computer book - Next message: NeXTstep: cloning a drive - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------ Hi All Whilst sitting on the plane on the way back from Newcastle yesterday. It reminded me of a system I saw at Gatwick airport in the early 1970's. I'm pretty sure it was run by a mini computer called an 'Arcturus'. I can clearly remember the grey rack mounted box with its row of toggle switches and lamps. I was there to install a VDU (sometimes referred to as a glass teletype). The big teletype they drove it from made the whole place shake and the VDU I fitted of course did not. It drove the departure / arrival TV monitors. The way it generated the characters was curious to say the least. It had a large number of circuits which generated parts of characters. One did a vertical bar, another produced a whole circle whilst others output parts of a circle, forty-five degree bars and so on. For each character cell the component parts of the required character were selected summed and added to a TV raster. Does anybody remember the Arcturus? Rod Smallwood From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Thu Mar 29 07:40:13 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 14:40:13 +0200 Subject: Multiprise 3000, was Re: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: <4F73F803.4090707@neurotica.com> References: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> <4F73F803.4090707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1333024813.4261.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2012-03-29 klockan 01:49 -0400 skrev Dave McGuire: > On 03/28/2012 09:54 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 6:27 PM -0700 3/28/12, mc68010 wrote: > >> This is kind of cool. No bidders with with a few hours left. If it was > >> only closer. > >> > >> http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=695038 > >> > >> That vintage right ? It's hard to tell anymore. > > > > No hard drives, no software. > > ...neither of which are impossible to find. Tough, but not impossible. > > > I think it's vintage, as in early 90's, but not sure. My experience with > > IBM gear is nearly non-existant. > > This is an IBM Multiprise 3000, which made its debut in, I think, > 2000 or so. It's basically an S/390 G5 (no connection to the PowerPC > processor of the same name) with a scaled-down I/O subsystem. It can be > either uniprocessor or dual. They're really nice machines, very compact > for a real mainframe, and quite fast as long as you don't do extremely > heavy I/O...basically it's got the same I/O as the rest of the computing > world, which is wimpy and puny when compared to real mainframes. These > machines are well-suited for S/390 software development for this reason. > They're popping up everywhere nowadays due to the IBM mainframe world > having gone 64-bit several years ago, and the subsequent de-supporting > of the 31-bit stuff. (no I didn't mean "32" ;)) 'Everywhere' doesn't include (as far as i can say) Sweden, but the freight from CO for this would be... I would be very happy for a AS/400 or their black descendant. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 29 07:49:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:49:27 -0400 Subject: Multiprise 3000, was Re: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: <1333024813.4261.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> <4F73F803.4090707@neurotica.com> <1333024813.4261.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <4F745A57.1040200@neurotica.com> On 03/29/2012 08:40 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: >> This is an IBM Multiprise 3000, which made its debut in, I think, >> 2000 or so. It's basically an S/390 G5 (no connection to the PowerPC >> processor of the same name) with a scaled-down I/O subsystem. It can be >> either uniprocessor or dual. They're really nice machines, very compact >> for a real mainframe, and quite fast as long as you don't do extremely >> heavy I/O...basically it's got the same I/O as the rest of the computing >> world, which is wimpy and puny when compared to real mainframes. These >> machines are well-suited for S/390 software development for this reason. >> They're popping up everywhere nowadays due to the IBM mainframe world >> having gone 64-bit several years ago, and the subsequent de-supporting >> of the 31-bit stuff. (no I didn't mean "32" ;)) > > 'Everywhere' doesn't include (as far as i can say) Sweden, but the > freight from CO for this would be... :-( > I would be very happy for a AS/400 or their black descendant. You know this machine has nothing at all to do with AS/400s, right? (just checking) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 29 09:58:08 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:58:08 -0500 Subject: OT: Family health issues (was: Re: another hidden pdp11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:13 -0500 3/29/12, Tony wrote: >s/pub/hospital/ I'm really sorry to hear that, Tony. You have our sympathy and best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery for your father. Is there anything else any of us can do? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 29 12:10:57 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:10:57 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com> Well, I am chugging along on this project. After fixing a few bugs, I now have a program that will read single blocks off the tape. Somewhere the docs got confused, they say that bit zero is MSB and bit 7 is LSB, a la IBM 360. But, the data I am getting is clearly the opposite bit order, so I will reverse that. Also, I am not detecting file marks, but see a block with zero length. So, I need to look at that. Could easily be a wiring error. But, I manually reversed the bits and I get VOL1 and HDR1 records of 80 byte length, and then data records of 8192 length. So, with just a little bit more tinkering, I think this thing is going to work. It IS a nightmare, with a 44-pin TSOP memory chip glued upside down on a piece of perfboard with wire wrap wires soldered to it. It was the only suitable memory chip I could find. 64K x 16, I'm only using one byte worth. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 29 12:26:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:26:21 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com> References: , <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F7438CD.32661.5B9D20@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Mar 2012 at 12:10, Jon Elson wrote: > Well, I am chugging along on this project. After fixing a few bugs, I > now have a program that will read single blocks off the tape. > Somewhere the docs got confused, they say that bit zero is MSB and bit > 7 is LSB, a la IBM 360. But, the data I am getting is clearly the > opposite bit order, so I will reverse that. I believe that's mentioned on my Pertec page: http://www.sydex.com/pertec.html It's all very confusing--if you haven't seen my page, it might be worth a look. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 12:38:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:38:58 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com> References: <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <31AFE476-08CE-4022-A125-CB8B16981667@gmail.com> On Mar 29, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Well, I am chugging along on this project. After fixing a few bugs, > I now have a program that will read single blocks off the tape. > Somewhere the docs got confused, they say that bit zero is MSB and > bit 7 is LSB, a la IBM 360. But, the data I am getting is clearly > the opposite bit order, so I will reverse that. Good progress! > Also, I am not detecting file marks, but see a block with zero > length. So, I need to look at that. Could easily be a wiring error. Been a while since I've had to do a Pertec interface, so I can't quite recall how those work. > But, I manually reversed the bits and I get VOL1 and HDR1 > records of 80 byte length, and then data records of 8192 length. > So, with just a little bit more tinkering, I think this thing is > going to work. It IS a nightmare, with a 44-pin TSOP memory > chip glued upside down on a piece of perfboard with wire wrap > wires soldered to it. It was the only suitable memory chip I > could find. 64K x 16, I'm only using one byte worth. You know, if you're looking for a nice FPGA eval board which provides 5v tolerant I/O and a decent amount of memory (SRAM, SDRAM and flash), the Altera/Terasic DE1 is cheap and has 5v tolerance (through clever use of the protection diodes and current-limiting resistors). Its siblings may have the same protection available, though I'm having some trouble finding the schematics or anything mentioning it in the user manuals; said siblings (DE0, DE0 Nano) use newer FPGAs, which might be preferable. - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 14:15:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:15:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Mar 28, 12 05:40:04 pm Message-ID: > >> A fair number of clock parts (for much older clocks) are either being > >> remanufacutred or made-to-order. You may well find a company that maks > >> glasses for clocks whoc could make soemthing for this unit. Be warned it > >> will not be cheap! > > > > Yeah, so I figured. My best bet is to find a trashed IBM clock as a > > glass donor. > > A quick look at Google with "clock" "glass" "replacement" tells me that > replacement curved glass is neither hard to find nor expensive. Here are > some that look good: My experieince with clock parts is much the smae as with most other spares. If you can get a standard part to fit, or can modify it to fit, it'll be cheap. If it takes custom manufacture it'll be rather more expenisve. Which is understandable. > > http://www.ofrei.com/page739.html > http://www.timesavers.com/ > http://www.atsclock.com/items/ClockParts-clock_crystals_glass.cfm?catID=18 > http://www.norkro.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5 I've never dealt with any of those companies, but Timesavers are well-known (and should, therefore, be reliable). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 14:17:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:17:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Family illness [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203290346.XAA28492@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 28, 12 11:46:55 pm Message-ID: > > > s/pub/hospital/ > > > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I > > am visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... > > That sucks. My parents were in medical care far more than I might Thank you. Fortunately he's in what I consider to be a very good hospital and I am hoping for the best. He had certainly improved when I visited him today. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 13:53:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:53:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <4F738125.3050200@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 28, 12 05:22:45 pm Message-ID: > > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I am > > visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... > > Badness. Best wishes for your father. Thank you... It appears the infection is being killed off, and that he is improving. I hope it continues... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 13:57:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:57:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <4F73248D.10391.1775CD5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Mar 28, 12 02:47:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Mar 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > FWIW, the only alcohol that is used in significant quantities here is > > CH_3.CHOH CH_3, and I certainly don't drink that. > > Oh, there are other plentiful alcohols--how about lanolin on toast? > You do have sheep over there in Blighty, don't you? Oh yes, we have sheep... I even once saw some genius try to take one on a London Omnibus (no, I don't mean a toy sheep, I mean a real one). But by 'here' I meantt this house, not England or the UK. And I don't personally keep sheep. OK, I am also sure there are plenty of other organinc substances around where which include an -OH group and thuys are techncially alcohols. Doubtless some are in foods that are not normally considered 'alcoholic'. Which has just suggestesd a totally OT queestion to me. Some cultures prohibit the drinking of alcohol. This is normally taken to mean drinks containing ethanol. But how do they handle other -OH molecules in foods? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 29 14:39:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:39:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Family health issues (was: Re: another hidden pdp11) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Mar 29, 12 09:58:08 am Message-ID: > > At 1:13 -0500 3/29/12, Tony wrote: > >s/pub/hospital/ > > I'm really sorry to hear that, Tony. You have our sympathy and best > wishes for a speedy and complete recovery for your father. Thank you. > > Is there anything else any of us can do? At the moment, I don't think so. He;'s gettign good medical attention, and I am looking after the 2 cats, etc (FWIW, I love the cats too, there is no question of them suffering). It means I am not getting as much electroncis done as I would normally do, but then these things happen and the machines will be there to work on when things are back to normal. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 29 14:44:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:44:37 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <4F7438CD.32661.5B9D20@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com>, <4F7438CD.32661.5B9D20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F745935.30494.DA341B@cclist.sydex.com> While I'm thinking of it, if you've got one of the Overland Data cables that terminates in a D-sub 68-pin connector and want to know how it's wired, here's a chart: http://www.sydex.com/overcbl.html --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 29 15:00:06 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Family illness [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Mar 29, 12 08:17:35 pm" Message-ID: <201203292000.q2TK07Pp9568478@floodgap.com> > > > s/pub/hospital/ > > > > > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I > > > am visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... > > > > That sucks. My parents were in medical care far more than I might > > Thank you. Fortunately he's in what I consider to be a very good hospital > and I am hoping for the best. He had certainly improved when I visited > him today. All the best, then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Put down your guns, it's Weasel Stomping Day! ------------------------------ From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Thu Mar 29 15:10:25 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:10:25 +0200 Subject: Multiprise 3000, was Re: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: <4F745A57.1040200@neurotica.com> References: <4F73BA66.6070300@gmail.com> <4F73F803.4090707@neurotica.com> <1333024813.4261.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <4F745A57.1040200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1333051825.4261.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2012-03-29 klockan 08:49 -0400 skrev Dave McGuire: > On 03/29/2012 08:40 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > >> This is an IBM Multiprise 3000, which made its debut in, I think, > >> 2000 or so. It's basically an S/390 G5 (no connection to the PowerPC > >> processor of the same name) with a scaled-down I/O subsystem. It can be > >> either uniprocessor or dual. They're really nice machines, very compact > >> for a real mainframe, and quite fast as long as you don't do extremely > >> heavy I/O...basically it's got the same I/O as the rest of the computing > >> world, which is wimpy and puny when compared to real mainframes. These > >> machines are well-suited for S/390 software development for this reason. > >> They're popping up everywhere nowadays due to the IBM mainframe world > >> having gone 64-bit several years ago, and the subsequent de-supporting > >> of the 31-bit stuff. (no I didn't mean "32" ;)) > > > > 'Everywhere' doesn't include (as far as i can say) Sweden, but the > > freight from CO for this would be... > > :-( > > > I would be very happy for a AS/400 or their black descendant. > > You know this machine has nothing at all to do with AS/400s, right? > (just checking) > > -Dave > Except that serie of 390 machine is black and the RISC:based AS/400 also is black, except for that not much. as long as we doesn't start to discuss how IBM percepted the future for their mainframes. OS/400 was how IBM wanted to build a new mainframe operative. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 29 15:21:05 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 21:21:05 +0100 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <4F738125.3050200@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 28, 12 05:22:45 pm Message-ID: <01f201cd0de9$7996cf00$6cc46d00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 29 March 2012 19:54 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: another hidden pdp11 > > > > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I > > > am visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... > > > > Badness. Best wishes for your father. > > Thank you... It appears the infection is being killed off, and that he is > improving. I hope it continues... > > -tony Glad to hear that your father seems to be on the road to recovery. Regards Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 15:29:14 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:29:14 -0700 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 B4474FA Netstation Software Codeword? Message-ID: I recently acquired an HP Envizex II Netstation X-Terminal which I would like to try out. I have a base HP-UX 10.20 OS running on an HP B160L and I have an original set of HP-UX 10.20 install media CDs, but apparently a Codeword is necessary to install the B4474FA HP Netstation Software from the CD. I don't have any Codewords for this set of install media CDs. Is there any way to obtain a Codeword to install the Netstation Software from the HP-UX 10.20 install media that I have? http://www.hp.com/softwarereleases/releases-media2/media/3710366.htm HP9000 Series 9000/700 HP-UX Application Software CD Part Number - B3782-10366 B4474FA, HP Netstation Software, Codeword Required: Yes, Size: 115622777 -Glen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 29 15:31:20 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 21:31:20 +0100 Subject: Rosewood Message-ID: <01f301cd0dea$e8283570$b878a050$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 29 March 2012 05:13 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8 questions > > > cylindrical volume of about 50 cubic metres for one tree. Let's say > > that one person wants a piece of rosewood that is 50cm x 50cm x 1cm. > > That is 0.0025 cubic metres, so a single fully grown tree would > > satisfy 20,000 people once a year. > > That's assuming that (a) all the pieces can be fit into the tree's volume with > no waste, (b) nothing is lost in cutting them out, and (c) any part of the tree > is perfectly suitable for any use. Neither (a) nor (b) is likely to be true, and, > while I don't know rosewood, I know that with the woods I do know > something about, (c) is not true. > > I have nothing but wild guesses as to how much is wasted; for what it's > worth, my wild guess is that the wastage is at least half the volume. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Yes, two people have challenged my assumptions. That is to be expected really as I am no expert on wood. It was just about getting an approximation to show that the "how can little old me really make a difference" attitude *can* make a difference when there are a lot of "little old me's". I am sure that the yield is far from perfect, but I was just trying to show that even with some fairly optimistic assumptions this attitude can have a big effect; if yield is 50% then the figures double etc.... Regards Rob From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 29 16:41:03 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AS/400 Public Auction and IBM Model 3745 (was S/390 thread) In-Reply-To: <1333024813.4261.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <1333057263.86539.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> AS/400 system, via the same site/format http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/all,tx/auction/view?auc=698872 however being public surplus these are usually only for local pickup. I can't recall the service that does pick things up and ship them internationally (or maybe they only allow you to ship it to them and they'll ship it to you).. I believe it was also a Texas company and from what I heard wasn't "that bad" although weight wise I'd certainly suggest waiting for one that's more local. There's also another huge beast http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/all,tx/auction/view?auc=682194 which they're describing as "FRONT END PROCESSOR ~ WORN Make:IBM Model:3745 Serial Num:0000061". While it's certainly impressive in mass, from what I can tell (well ok from what google and wikipedia told me) it's just a communication controller? --- On Thu, 3/29/12, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > From: Stefan Skoglund > 'Everywhere' doesn't include (as far as i can say) Sweden, > but the > freight from CO for this would be... > > I would be very happy for a AS/400 or their black > descendant. From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 29 16:50:27 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 14:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S/390 in Aurora, CO. Public Surplus Auction In-Reply-To: <4F73F859.2060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1333057827.3745.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Just posted this on the VC forums too but the auction was extended with a new date of Apr 9, 2012 10:00:00 AM MDT (0 bidders). From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 29 17:10:48 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:10:48 -0700 Subject: AS/400 Public Auction and IBM Model 3745 (was S/390 thread) In-Reply-To: <1333057263.86539.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1333057263.86539.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F74DDE8.5060802@jwsss.com> It will be ground up for gold scrap by 99.99% of the buyers. Sad ending to a nice system. I think they are some sort of modified 370 architecture internally. This is the beast that did all the comms in / out of mainframes before they started to use the RT type technology, then later the P390's. I know that oversimplifies the progression, but is basically the story. I'd love to have one to play with, but the size makes it pretty prohibitive to think about (not to mention power, etc.) I would think I could run it on an R390 with the right OS as well, not sure. I know the P/390 and R/390 channels will run tape and 3174 channel attached, but not sure about whether the channels would run a 3745 or not. Jim On 3/29/2012 2:41 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > There's also another huge beasthttp://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/all,tx/auction/view?auc=682194 which they're describing as "FRONT END PROCESSOR ~ WORN Make:IBM Model:3745 Serial Num:0000061". While it's certainly impressive in mass, from what I can tell From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Mar 29 17:43:44 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:43:44 +0200 Subject: You should have senn this.. Message-ID: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 17:50:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:50:39 -0400 Subject: AS/400 Public Auction and IBM Model 3745 (was S/390 thread) In-Reply-To: <4F74DDE8.5060802@jwsss.com> References: <1333057263.86539.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F74DDE8.5060802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >?I think they are some sort of modified 370 architecture > internally. ?This is the beast that did all the comms in / out of mainframes > before they started to use the RT type technology, then later the P390's. 3745s may actually use the UC processor, like their predecessors. I should wait until a 3745 shows up on the east coast. -- Will From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Mar 29 17:57:08 2012 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:57:08 +0100 Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <7757082DA9A5476F8E33196C9AC25EF0@Edicons.local> References: <7757082DA9A5476F8E33196C9AC25EF0@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4F74E8C4.9030209@gifford.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well there's a turn up for the book. > They must have made at least two then!! I have the card cage from one of them, which was installed at the University of London in the 1970s. It's a sub-rack full of PCBs with SSI and MSI TTL chips on them. I have no other parts of the machine, nor do I have any manuals or software. > I also worked with another UK machine made by Digico I think I saw a room full of those at Essex Uni in the 1980s, for machine-code classes. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 29 18:24:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:24:57 -0700 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2012 at 0:43, Holm Tiffe wrote: > So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q Is this just a manifestation of "any electromechanical widget will make a somewhat musical noise if you pulse it the right way?". In other words, would relays, motors, solenoids or doorbells be just as adequate to the task? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 18:28:15 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:28:15 +0100 Subject: AS/400 Public Auction and IBM Model 3745 (was S/390 thread) In-Reply-To: <4F74DDE8.5060802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <832FE376714B4D0B9D3AE8AEC8633C48@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s > Sent: 29 March 2012 23:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AS/400 Public Auction and IBM Model 3745 (was > S/390 thread) > > > It will be ground up for gold scrap by 99.99% of the buyers. > Sad ending > to a nice system. I think they are some sort of modified 370 > architecture internally. This is the beast that did all the > comms in / > out of mainframes before they started to use the RT type technology, > then later the P390's. Its later than a P390, but similar in concept. You can have two CPUs in an MP3000. You can have real disks and tapes or emulated disks and tapes. In addition it has a built in SAN that looks like real disks to the s/390 cpu's. When we had one at work this was the most unreliable part. The technical intro is here:- http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg245633.pdf Ours from work went for gold scrap. The cost of transferring the OS licence is usually expensive, and the only free OS it will run is zLinux. > > I know that oversimplifies the progression, but is basically the > story. I'd love to have one to play with, but the size > makes it pretty > prohibitive to think about (not to mention power, etc.) > F it has disks in the only bit you need is the CPU. It's a CPU and i/o in a box. > I would think I could run it on an R390 with the right OS as > well, not > sure. I know the P/390 and R/390 channels will run tape and 3174 > channel attached, but not sure about whether the channels would run a > 3745 or not. > The channels are real bus and tag channels and will run a 3745. However they can have built in LAN cards so you don't normally need a 3745. > Jim > > On 3/29/2012 2:41 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > > There's also another huge > beasthttp://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/all,tx/auction/view?auc= > 682194 which they're describing as "FRONT END PROCESSOR ~ > WORN Make:IBM Model:3745 Serial Num:0000061". While it's > certainly impressive in mass, from what I can tell > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 19:02:13 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:02:13 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <4F745935.30494.DA341B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7497A1.6060108@pico-systems.com> <4F7438CD.32661.5B9D20@cclist.sydex.com> <4F745935.30494.DA341B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: book marks that... On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While I'm thinking of it, if you've got one of the Overland Data > cables that terminates in a D-sub 68-pin connector and want to know > how it's wired, here's a chart: > > http://www.sydex.com/overcbl.html > > --Chuck > > > From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 29 19:10:40 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You should have seen this.. In-Reply-To: <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1333066240.94968.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I believe so yes, the movement is just from the voltage. Similar to the hard drive speaker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBG0s9Qtjkk wiring. Here's someone explaining what software they're using and a how-to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6tuMn5sPyM --- On Thu, 3/29/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Is this just a manifestation of "any electromechanical > widget will > make a somewhat musical noise if you pulse it the right > way?".? In > other words, would relays, motors, solenoids or doorbells be > just as > adequate to the task? > > --Chuck > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Mar 29 19:19:46 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:19:46 -0400 Subject: Religion API - Re: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F74FC22.6050306@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/03/12 2:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 28 Mar 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> FWIW, the only alcohol that is used in significant quantities here is >>> CH_3.CHOH CH_3, and I certainly don't drink that. >> >> Oh, there are other plentiful alcohols--how about lanolin on toast? >> You do have sheep over there in Blighty, don't you? > > Oh yes, we have sheep... I even once saw some genius try to take one on a > London Omnibus (no, I don't mean a toy sheep, I mean a real one). > > But by 'here' I meantt this house, not England or the UK. And I don't > personally keep sheep. > > OK, I am also sure there are plenty of other organinc substances around > where which include an -OH group and thuys are techncially alcohols. > Doubtless some are in foods that are not normally considered 'alcoholic'. > > Which has just suggestesd a totally OT queestion to me. Some cultures > prohibit the drinking of alcohol. This is normally taken to mean drinks > containing ethanol. But how do they handle other -OH molecules in foods? > This is a simple versioning problem. The Religion API, being a few thousand years old, is simply incompatible with newer clients speaking the Science protocol. One needs to upgrade, or the other needs to downgrade, assuming that the hardware is not too new to run TribalOS 1.0. --Toby > -tony > > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Mar 29 21:23:34 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:23:34 -0700 Subject: Religion API - Re: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: <4F74FC22.6050306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F74FC22.6050306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 29 Mar 2012, at 5:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > This is a simple versioning problem. The Religion API, being a few thousand years old, is simply incompatible with newer clients speaking the Science protocol. > > One needs to upgrade, or the other needs to downgrade, assuming that the hardware is not too new to run TribalOS 1.0. Tea -> monitor. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Mar 29 21:50:58 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:50:58 +0000 Subject: Religion API - Re: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <4F74FC22.6050306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B904E5D3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Kennedy > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Religion API - Re: another hidden pdp11 > > > On 29 Mar 2012, at 5:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > > This is a simple versioning problem. The Religion API, being a few thousand > years old, is simply incompatible with newer clients speaking the Science > protocol. > > > > One needs to upgrade, or the other needs to downgrade, assuming that > the hardware is not too new to run TribalOS 1.0. > Not sure I agree there's an insurmountable problem. I've found that running the Rational Shim between the two can avoid general emotional protection faults, core belief dumps and other serious issues. The Rational Shim filters the interface so that issues fundamentally premised on belief (aka faith) are not submitted to positivist interfaces, which typically results in unresolvable conflicts such as infinite social recursion. The Science protocol continues to address the problem domain for which it is best suited. Hm, how many wars could have been avoided if the Rational Shim had been more broadly adopted? -- Ian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Mar 29 22:25:40 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Mar 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Mar 2012 at 0:43, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q > > Is this just a manifestation of "any electromechanical widget will > make a somewhat musical noise if you pulse it the right way?". In > other words, would relays, motors, solenoids or doorbells be just as > adequate to the task? The singing disk drive is a timeless concept. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 29 22:44:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:44:33 -0700 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F752C21.9080802@brouhaha.com> >> Is this just a manifestation of "any electromechanical widget will >> make a somewhat musical noise if you pulse it the right way?". In >> other words, would relays, motors, solenoids or doorbells be just as >> adequate to the task? > Stepper motors can give you a range of frequencies, which a doorbell generally won't. You'd need a doorbell for each note. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 29 23:35:55 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:35:55 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F75382B.6050202@pico-systems.com> Well, I did the bit reversal TWICE, so of course the end result was wrong! Fixed that, fixed up a little bug in resetting the file mark detection flag in the wrong place, and I now have a rough program that maps the files structure of a tape. here's a snip of what I got. VOL1RT1101 DD%% 1 HDR1SAMBR .CTL RT110100010001000100 00000 00000 000000RT11 file 0 had 2 blocks 0 errors 0 timeouts blocksize was 512 HDR1SAMBR .BAK RT110100010001000100 00000 00000 000000RT11 file 1 had 2 blocks 0 errors 0 timeouts blocksize was 512 HDR1SAMBR .FOR RT110100010001000100 00000 00000 000000RT11 file 2 had 4 blocks 0 errors 0 timeouts blocksize was 512 and so on. (Note the RT11 header labels above. I sort of thought this tape would have been from RSX-11M, but it must have been made before we switched. Whew, that's going BACK a ways, about 1976 or 77 when we went to RSX. The actual tape I'm reading was a 6250 BPI copy of the original tape (probably 1600 BPI) from back then. This copy was probably made 15 years ago, though.) I'm now working on a program to move the entire tape to a single disk file with pretty much verbatim bytes from the tape. It will have a 32-bit header for each record of file mark, showing the record size or file mark. Then I can write programs at my leisure to extract files without having to listen to the wail of the Gast vane pump in the keystone tape drive. Oh, the performance seems to be pretty good. it was streaming fairly well at either 25 or 75 IPS in 6250, I suspect it will certainly stream at 75 IPS with a 1600 BPI tape. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 29 23:59:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 21:59:28 -0700 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F74DB40.16524.2D62DBB@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Mar 2012 at 20:25, David Griffith wrote: > The singing disk drive is a timeless concept. Tell me about the Maxtor XT1140 drive! But that's usually a sign of its imminent demise... I think a higher form of the art is the singing vacuum-column tape drive or high-speed train printer. Takes quite a bit of experimentation to get that quite right. --Chuck From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 30 00:56:33 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OSI boot disks Message-ID: <1333086993.4086.YahooMailNeo@web162904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've got my OSI C2-4P into a basically working state, to the point where the boot code seeks to track 0 and tries to load the OS boot code.? I know I had a couple of plastic disk-boxes with my OSI boot disks and some software, but I cannot find it anywhere.? I do have some C1 Boot disks, but these won't work with a C2.? If anyone with a working OS65D boot disk (and hopefully the tutorial disks) for a C2/4/8 would be willing to make some copies for me, I'd be most grateful. I believe it's possible to reconstruct a boot disk over a serial port, but I'd rather keep that as a last resort.? That would be an exercise much like building a ship in a bottle. Thanks, Dave From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Mar 30 00:56:59 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:56:59 +0200 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 08:25:40PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > The singing disk drive is a timeless concept. OT question: What was the first "singing" computer peripheral ? My guess is the IBM 1403 printer from 1959: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/1403.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1401#Art_inspired_by_the_IBM_1401 The Swedes played music with the Datasaab D21/D22 cpu in 1967. Regards, Pontus. From jon.griver at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 04:40:56 2012 From: jon.griver at gmail.com (Jon Griver) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:40:56 +0200 Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer Message-ID: *Dear Rod,* ** *Feeling nostaligic, I googled 'Arcturus Minicomputer', and your letter below was the only reference I found. I know the letter is from 2007. I hope the email address is still in use.* ** *I programmed an Arcturus minicomputer at the Atkinson Morley Hospital in Wimbledon from 1973 to 1976. It was used to do image processing on pictures from the first CT scanner in the world, which was located in that hospital.* ** *All the programming I did on the machine was in assembler. The computer did not have a disk operating system. Every action involved first loading the program you need from paper tape, then the data, etc.* ** *The first thing I did was to write a very rudimentary disk operating system. It took 6 weeks, but it worked.* ** *I knew that Arcturus had installed the monitor system in Gatwick.* ** *Best Wishes,* ** ** *Jon Griver* ** ** ** *Fri Mar 30 02:45:49 CDT 2007* - Previous message: On topic? Looking for old computer book - Next message: NeXTstep: cloning a drive - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------ Hi All Whilst sitting on the plane on the way back from Newcastle yesterday. It reminded me of a system I saw at Gatwick airport in the early 1970's. I'm pretty sure it was run by a mini computer called an 'Arcturus'. I can clearly remember the grey rack mounted box with its row of toggle switches and lamps. I was there to install a VDU (sometimes referred to as a glass teletype). The big teletype they drove it from made the whole place shake and the VDU I fitted of course did not. It drove the departure / arrival TV monitors. The way it generated the characters was curious to say the least. It had a large number of circuits which generated parts of characters. One did a vertical bar, another produced a whole circle whilst others output parts of a circle, forty-five degree bars and so on. For each character cell the component parts of the required character were selected summed and added to a TV raster. Does anybody remember the Arcturus? Rod Smallwood From alberto at a2sistemi.org Thu Mar 29 09:43:38 2012 From: alberto at a2sistemi.org (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:43:38 +0200 Subject: Machine to identify Message-ID: <011f01cd0dba$5b94a9c0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> I've to identify this machine. No label, no data on it. http://www.fondazionegalileogalilei.it/museo/collezioni/calcolatori/mini _pc/img_mini_pc/57_patent_pending.jpg Someone know this machine ? Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione MUSEO DEL COMPUTER Onlus Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 1856032 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 2046034 Mobile +39 335 6026632 Sito web : http://www.museodelcomputer.org Mail : alberto at museodelcomputer.org Filiale di Torino : Tel 011 23415829 Filiale di Roma : Tel 06 98357066 ------------------------------------------------------ Le telefonate con numero nascosto sono filtrate Calls with no caller identifier are filtered ------------------------------------------------------ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Mar 30 01:07:17 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:07:17 +0200 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120330080717.Horde.6g-2X6Qd9PdPdU2VXYJ7fwA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Holm Tiffe wrote: > So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q > Also nice.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAWF-qhh4pQ&feature=related (wait a bit until it realy starts) From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 30 01:27:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:27:18 -0700 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > OT question: What was the first "singing" computer peripheral ? I suppose you mean a peripheral that wasn't originally intended for sound production? The first public demonstrations of computers playing music were in 1951, but the peripherals used were more or less intended to produce sound. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Mar 30 01:31:53 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:31:53 +0200 Subject: Machine to identify In-Reply-To: <011f01cd0dba$5b94a9c0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> References: <011f01cd0dba$5b94a9c0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> Message-ID: <20120330063152.GA17709@Update.UU.SE> Bondwell model 14? It says 14 on the top at least. http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/bw1214.htm On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 04:43:38PM +0200, Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI wrote: > I've to identify this machine. No label, no data on it. > > http://www.fondazionegalileogalilei.it/museo/collezioni/calcolatori/mini > _pc/img_mini_pc/57_patent_pending.jpg > > Someone know this machine ? > > Alberto > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione MUSEO DEL COMPUTER Onlus > Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 1856032 > 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 2046034 > Mobile +39 335 6026632 > Sito web : http://www.museodelcomputer.org > Mail : alberto at museodelcomputer.org > Filiale di Torino : Tel 011 23415829 > Filiale di Roma : Tel 06 98357066 > ------------------------------------------------------ > Le telefonate con numero nascosto sono filtrate > Calls with no caller identifier are filtered > ------------------------------------------------------ > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Mar 30 01:34:26 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:34:26 +0100 Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4F74E8C4.9030209@gifford.co.uk> References: <7757082DA9A5476F8E33196C9AC25EF0@Edicons.local> <4F74E8C4.9030209@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <53A8D3FF2342426BB42899C5017FAFFC@Edicons.local> Good Heavens!! A survivor. I only saw it once or twice but Jon Giver worked on one for six months. I remember a gray rack mounted box with lamps and small toggle (Lemo type) switches. Well John you have a real piece of UK computer history. There can't have been that many made. Is there any identifying marks or labels on the rack? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Honniball Sent: 29 March 2012 23:57 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Arcturus Minicomputer Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well there's a turn up for the book. > They must have made at least two then!! I have the card cage from one of them, which was installed at the University of London in the 1970s. It's a sub-rack full of PCBs with SSI and MSI TTL chips on them. I have no other parts of the machine, nor do I have any manuals or software. > I also worked with another UK machine made by Digico I think I saw a room full of those at Essex Uni in the 1980s, for machine-code classes. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 30 01:43:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:43:26 -0400 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F75560E.10601@neurotica.com> On 03/29/2012 06:43 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q Wow. That is really, really well done! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Fri Mar 30 01:45:34 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:45:34 -0700 Subject: Machine to identify In-Reply-To: <011f01cd0dba$5b94a9c0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> References: <011f01cd0dba$5b94a9c0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> Message-ID: <4F75568E.7060305@jwsss.com> The red stripe and color style sort of looks like some GenRad test boxes I've seen. The red band more than the green. Is the red band blank? Larger photo, or are you trying to identify it from just this low res photo? On 3/29/2012 7:43 AM, Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI wrote: > http://www.fondazionegalileogalilei.it/museo/collezioni/calcolatori/mini > _pc/img_mini_pc/57_patent_pending.jpg From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Mar 30 01:47:43 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:47:43 -0700 Subject: OSI boot disks In-Reply-To: <1333086993.4086.YahooMailNeo@web162904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1333086993.4086.YahooMailNeo@web162904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F75570F.6080805@mail.msu.edu> On 3/29/2012 10:56 PM, Dave wrote: > I've got my OSI C2-4P into a basically working state, to the point where the boot code seeks to track 0 and tries to load the OS boot code. I know I had a couple of plastic disk-boxes with my OSI boot disks and some software, but I cannot find it anywhere. I do have some C1 Boot disks, but these won't work with a C2. If anyone with a working OS65D boot disk (and hopefully the tutorial disks) for a C2/4/8 would be willing to make some copies for me, I'd be most grateful. > > > I believe it's possible to reconstruct a boot disk over a serial port, but I'd rather keep that as a last resort. That would be an exercise much like building a ship in a bottle. > > > Thanks, > > Dave > I'll second this -- I have exactly the same machine, with exactly the same problem -- no bootable media. I was actually preparing to send out a similar mail in the next few weeks; you beat me to it :). - Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Mar 30 02:40:43 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Mar 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> OT question: What was the first "singing" computer peripheral ? > > I suppose you mean a peripheral that wasn't originally intended for sound > production? The first public demonstrations of computers playing music were > in 1951, but the peripherals used were more or less intended to produce > sound. Where would something like Leroy Anderson's "The Typewriter" (1950) fit in to this? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 03:09:57 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:09:57 -0700 Subject: Machine to identify In-Reply-To: <20120330063152.GA17709@Update.UU.SE> References: <011f01cd0dba$5b94a9c0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> <20120330063152.GA17709@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4F756A55.7060705@gmail.com> On 3/29/2012 11:31 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Bondwell model 14? It says 14 on the top at least. > > http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/bw1214.htm > What it is that sitting on ? Snow ? Fjords ? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Mar 30 03:15:58 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:15:58 +0200 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120330081557.GD17709@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:40:43AM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > >I suppose you mean a peripheral that wasn't originally intended > >for sound production? Yes, > Where would something like Leroy Anderson's "The Typewriter" (1950) > fit in to this? Not really, while it is a lovely piece, it is not played on a computer peripheral. And I thought it would be understood that the player should be the computer. Regards, Pontus From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Mar 30 08:24:47 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:24:47 -0400 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4F75560E.10601@neurotica.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F75560E.10601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F75B41F.20603@verizon.net> On 3/30/2012 2:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 03/29/2012 06:43 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q > > Wow. That is really, really well done! > > -Dave > Pretty cool. Did you see the full list of the songs he's, uhhh, covered? http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL44C2614808EB920E Pretty impressive. Keith From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 09:59:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:59:32 -0400 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q After seeing this make the rounds a few times, I grabbed the software the other day and got it going with one drive. It's a Java MIDI parser that sends commands down a (USB-implemented) serial port to an embedded app on the Arduino to send appropriately timed step and direction signals to up to 8 (on an Arduino Uno) devices. 3.5" floppy drives are unloved enough and available in such quantities that it's a cheap way to create an array of mechanical sounders. There are plenty of options for building alternate sounders but unless you happen to have a pile of stepper drivers on hand, the costs could mount up quickly. The software is here: https://github.com/SammyIAm/Moppy It took me a bit of fiddling to get the Java app to compile on an Ubuntu box. I didn't want to mess with NetBeans; I just wanted a .jar file. I had to find a framework jar and, of course, there was some fiddling with librxtxSerial.so and RXTXcomm.jar, but I did get it working. It reminded me why I'm very very happy not to be making a living working with Java. I'm considering scaling up to the full 8 drives. Right now I'm scavenging locally for connectors and drives and such. Turns out of all the junk I have lying around, a stack of generic floppy drives is _not_ part of it (I do have spare non-mainstream drives like Teac FD55GFRs and Amiga "720K" drives and oddball Sony drives for the Tandy 1000, etc, but not a pile of FD235HDs, for example). I think there's also some MIDI editing going on since most of the MIDI files assume a certain acoustic response from the synthesizer end. Certainly some files play "cleaner" than others. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 10:05:44 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:05:44 -0400 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Mar 2012 at 0:43, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> So far as I know this is MIDI ofer an arduino board: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q > > Is this just a manifestation of "any electromechanical widget will > make a somewhat musical noise if you pulse it the right way?". Essentially, but done with cheap, available hardware and nothing to solder that's more complicated than a power cable. >?In other words, would relays, motors, solenoids or doorbells be just as > adequate to the task? I don't know that you could get the same frequency range from solenoids due to inertia (and perhaps the time it takes to create and collapse such a large magnetic field). You certainly could take random stepper motors and stepper drivers and reproduce the effect. I suppose one could switch relays fast enough for some of the lower notes, but I have to wonder how well relays would work at 500Hz and above. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 10:44:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:44:55 -0700 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de>, <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE>, <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F757287.5648.19C26B@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Mar 2012 at 23:27, Eric Smith wrote: > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > OT question: What was the first "singing" computer peripheral ? > > I suppose you mean a peripheral that wasn't originally intended for > sound production? The first public demonstrations of computers > playing music were in 1951, but the peripherals used were more or less > intended to produce sound. CDC was pretty tight with the military, particularly the Navy (it was said that if Seymour conceived a new machine, the Navy would have its order in before the blueprint was dry). The brass loved dog-and-pony shows, in particular, being greeted with "Anchors Aweigh". I think the whole business started with the 1604, but by the time the 3000 series was out, there were quite a few "computer orchestra" hits out, including "The Stars and Stripes Forever" and "The Eyes of Texas", with full percussion. It was impressive to see. Here's one such recounting, describing how to make a tape drive sing (not something that you can do with a streamer, however): http://www.computer-history.info/Page1.dir/pages/Tymes.html --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 30 11:22:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > OK, I am also sure there are plenty of other organinc substances > around where which include an -OH group and thuys are techncially > alcohols. Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or sugars. Or even phenol, though that's getting a bit more borderline. > Which has just suggestesd a totally OT queestion to me. Some > cultures prohibit the drinking of alcohol. This is normally taken to > mean drinks containing ethanol. But how do they handle other -OH > molecules in foods? I feel reasonably sure the answer is "they ignore them"; certainly in the few cases I can answer confidently it is. Such prohibitions often (usually?) are actually aimed at intoxication, by way of intoxicants; equating that with the presence of ethanol leads to errors in both directions. (Of course, how much people care about those errors varies.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 30 11:46:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:46:00 -0700 Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Mar 2012 at 12:22, Mouse wrote: > I feel reasonably sure the answer is "they ignore them"; certainly in > the few cases I can answer confidently it is. Such prohibitions often > (usually?) are actually aimed at intoxication, by way of intoxicants; > equating that with the presence of ethanol leads to errors in both > directions. (Of course, how much people care about those errors > varies.) Like everything else, the devil's in the details. Even your most hard-core Mormon will probably enjoy a cool drink of ginger ale or root beer (if fermented, probably about 0.5 percent alcohol). Do any other fermented foods, such as sauerkraut contain alcohol in traces? And how far do you have to genetically engineer a pig before it's not a pig? --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Mar 30 11:57:38 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 16:57:38 +0000 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <4F75382B.6050202@pico-systems.com> References: <4F75382B.6050202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806940@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Jon Elson Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:36 PM > I'm now working on a program to move the entire tape to a single disk > file with pretty much verbatim bytes from the tape. It will have a > 32-bit header for each record of file mark, showing the record size or > file mark. Then I can write programs at my leisure to extract files > without having to listen to the wail of the Gast vane pump in the > keystone tape drive. I believe you've been asked this in other venues. Why are you inventing Yet Another Tape Image Format???? Why don't you just use the SimH format, and write your tools to work with that? I did that very thing, in PDP-10 assembler, on the Toad-1 at the museum, and I've been very happy with the results: I can, for example, get an image of a Tops-10 tape from Trailing Edge, write it to a 9trk tape from the Toad, and carry it across the room to the tape drives attached to the DEC-20 running Tops-10 to install. I can do the same thing for all of our PDP-11s, our Eclipse MVs, and eventually our Xerox Sigmas (when needed). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Mar 30 12:06:03 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:06:03 +0000 Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806972@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Mouse Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 9:22 AM >> OK, I am also sure there are plenty of other organinc substances >> around where which include an -OH group and thuys are techncially >> alcohols. > Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by > chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or sugars. > Or even phenol, though that's getting a bit more borderline. Yes, I thought that was odd when I read it yesterday. Isn't an alcohol defined by "-COOH"? ($DEITY, organic chemistry was 40+ years ago, and just for fun.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 12:08:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:08:18 -0400 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806940@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4F75382B.6050202@pico-systems.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806940@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2012, at 12:57 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Jon Elson > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:36 PM > >> I'm now working on a program to move the entire tape to a single disk >> file with pretty much verbatim bytes from the tape. It will have a >> 32-bit header for each record of file mark, showing the record size or >> file mark. Then I can write programs at my leisure to extract files >> without having to listen to the wail of the Gast vane pump in the >> keystone tape drive. > > I believe you've been asked this in other venues. > > Why are you inventing Yet Another Tape Image Format???? > > Why don't you just use the SimH format, and write your tools to work > with that? I was going to ask the same thing, but I think it carries more weight coming from Rich. :-) SimH format is ridiculously easy to write; if you've already converted a bunch of tapes to your own format, I'd suggest that it's easy to write a Python script to do a translation (which is what I've done with some of the RSX-11M images available from trailing-edge, which are in a format somewhat similar to yours). - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 30 12:12:32 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806972@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Mar 30, 12 05:06:03 pm" Message-ID: <201203301712.q2UHCW5O7143452@floodgap.com> > > Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by > > chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or sugars. > > Or even phenol, though that's getting a bit more borderline. > > Yes, I thought that was odd when I read it yesterday. Isn't an alcohol > defined by "-COOH"? ($DEITY, organic chemistry was 40+ years ago, and > just for fun.) -COOH is an organic acid. COOH is formic acid; CH3COOH is acetic acid and C00h is 3072. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is the business of little minds to shrink. -- Carl Sandburg ------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 12:14:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:14:39 -0400 Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > And how far do you have to genetically engineer a pig before it's not > a pig? I read that genes from a rosewood tree would do the trick. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 30 12:22:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806972@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806972@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201203301722.NAA23927@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Yes, I thought that was odd when I read it yesterday. Isn't an > alcohol defined by "-COOH"? No. Ethanol, for example, is CH3-CH2-OH. -COOH is a carboxyl group, at least assuming you mean -(C=O)-OH, which is usually what -COOH means. > ($DEITY, organic chemistry was 40+ years ago, and just for fun.) Mine was more like 35 years ago, but yes, it was great fun. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 30 12:29:54 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203301712.q2UHCW5O7143452@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Mar 30, 12 10:12:32 am" Message-ID: <201203301729.q2UHTstA10289214@floodgap.com> > > > Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by > > > chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or sugars. > > > Or even phenol, though that's getting a bit more borderline. > > > > Yes, I thought that was odd when I read it yesterday. Isn't an alcohol > > defined by "-COOH"? ($DEITY, organic chemistry was 40+ years ago, and > > just for fun.) > > -COOH is an organic acid. COOH is formic acid; CH3COOH is acetic acid and > C00h is 3072. Argh! I meant HCOOH. And, while I'm at it, -COOH is more specifically a carboxylic acid. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal --------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 12:21:46 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:21:46 -0400 Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806972@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806972@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: >> Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by >> chemists... > > Yes, I thought that was odd when I read it yesterday. ?Isn't an alcohol > defined by "-COOH"? ?($DEITY, organic chemistry was 40+ years ago, and > just for fun.) That's what I thought... carboxyl group rather than hydroxyl group. -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Mar 30 12:47:03 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 19:47:03 +0200 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120330194703.8e95a4fa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 20:31:05 +0100 Rob wrote: > http://www.etsy.com/listing/95511758/vintage-1960s-ibm-disk-platter-aged-to > > *Sobs* Well. I have a disk platter like that one hanging at the wall in my office at work. (Without the stupid clock stuff.) It's hanging there to show "metal-cutting data processing": The platter has some serious traces of multiple head crashes... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 30 12:49:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: <4F75382B.6050202@pico-systems.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806940@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201203301749.NAA24212@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Why are you inventing Yet Another Tape Image Format???? >> Why don't you just use the SimH format, and write your tools to work >> with that? > I was going to ask the same thing, but I think it carries more weight > coming from Rich. :-) I can't speak for Jon. But, as someone who's invented a disk-file representation of tapes (for very similar purposes in a rather different context), my primary reason was that I wasn't aware a SimH format existed - though, of course, on reflection, something of the sort must exist. (I'm not sure whether I was aware SimH existed when I invented my format.) Quite aside from that, the SimH format does have a few disadvantages. For one thing, as far as I can tell the only documentation on it, besides source code, is a PDF file; while I do have a program to extract readable text from a PDF, it's relatively recent, and it would not have been worth slogging through a PDF for the purpose. (The PDF also isn't present in the SimH distribution as far as I can see; comparing it with sim_tape.c and sim_tape.h, I find it also is partially incorrect.) Its metadata is binary, meaning that tapes containing pure text are not represented as pure text files. The format's magic numbers are ones that are relatively likely to occur in data, thus making sync loss comparatively serious. It represents a number of things (such as read errors and erase gaps) which make it inappropriately detailed for some purposes. At the very least, readers need to understand them enough to skip them (and the dissonance between the source and the doc is worrisome). It has nothing like a format version number in the files. While not a technical issue, it's another instance of the very problem you are decrying; SimH could perfectly well have adopted the copytape format, with suitable slight variations (such as trailing as well as leading record lengths). As far as I can tell SimH dates back to only the early '90s; copytape goes back to the mid-'80s. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 30 13:21:13 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203301712.q2UHCW5O7143452@floodgap.com> References: <201203301712.q2UHCW5O7143452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201203301821.OAA24623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > -COOH is an organic acid. COOH is formic acid; Well, HCOOH; if you're going to write the one H you really should write the other. > CH3COOH is acetic acid Indeed it is. The series goes on, of course, though the names are irregular up to higher sizes than most carbon-chain series: formic, acetic, propionic, butyric, valeric, caproic, enanthic, caprylic, pelargonic, capric, undecylic, lauric, tridecylic, myristic, pentadecanoic, palmitic, margaric, stearic, arachidic.... > and C00h is 3072. There is that. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 13:24:17 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:24:17 +0200 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 16:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > _not_ part of it (I do have spare non-mainstream drives like Teac > FD55GFRs and Amiga "720K" drives and oddball Sony drives for the Tandy > 1000, etc, but not a pile of FD235HDs, for example). I probably don't need to say this, but please do not abuse the Amiga floppy drives too much - they are still a sought after commodity in the Amiga community. Not all PC floppy dives can easily be modified to work in Amigas, and there is of course the positioning of the eject button that is important for those that want to keep their A500 looking right. Plus they fit into 1581's without modification. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 30 13:41:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:41:45 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <201203301749.NAA24212@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F75382B.6050202@pico-systems.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D806940@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <201203301749.NAA24212@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F75FE69.30208@bitsavers.org> On 3/30/12 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote: >As far as I can tell SimH dates back to only > the early '90s .tap is a descendent of .tpc which was created in the 70's From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 13:48:18 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:48:18 -0400 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 16:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> _not_ part of it (I do have spare non-mainstream drives like Teac >> FD55GFRs and Amiga "720K" drives and oddball Sony drives for the Tandy >> 1000, etc, but not a pile of FD235HDs, for example). > > I probably don't need to say this, but please do not abuse the Amiga > floppy drives too much - they are still a sought after commodity in > the Amiga community. You don't need to say it to me. I have no intentions of turning Commodore drives into musical instruments. I still have Amigas to keep running. My point was only that the drives I do have lying around are exactly *not* generic PC drives. > Not all PC floppy dives can easily be modified to > work in Amigas, and there is of course the positioning of the eject > button that is important for those that want to keep their A500 > looking right. Yep. > Plus they fit into 1581's without modification. I do have a couple of 1581s, including one that seems to have a dead drive (I got them a long time ago from a Commodore dealer who was going out of business, so it was probably a customer repair/return unit). -ethan From js at cimmeri.com Fri Mar 30 14:07:59 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:07:59 -0500 Subject: FT: Data General Novas and Desktop Generation (revised from 3/22/12 post) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F76048F.4000006@cimmeri.com> {revision of first CCTalk post on 3/22/12} Thanks to those who have been inquiring on these items, I can now render a more helpful post. Location: Washington, D.C., or near Frederick, Maryland. For trade (preferred) or best offers: - 1974 DG Nova 2 rackmount (untested, unrestored) top cover missing .Front panel (cosmetics very good condition) .Nova 2 CPU .Standard Memories 16k core .Basic I/O -- all electronics working condition unknown, but appear undamaged in very good condition. - 1971 DG Nova 1200 rackmount (untested, unrestored) w/ all covers. .Front panel (cosmetics -- fair condition) .Nova 1200 CPU .DG 4k core .Basic I/O -- all electronics working condition unknown, but appear undamaged in very good condition. - 1984 DG Desktop Generation R20 (untested, unrestored) w/ D461 terminal .dual power supply unit .R20 SPU unit with SPU, 256k ram, USAM, and asynch modules -- (note: no terminal cables or adapters.) .single drive diskette unit .hard drive unit .tape drive unit .manuals (setting up, testing, users in 2 encased binders) and 3 diskettes. -- all electronics working condition unknown, but appear undamaged in excellent condition. -- cosmetics, very good to excellent. PM me with trades, offers, questions, corrections. Looking for (in order of priority): - PDP 11/04 or 11/34 half-height (only) chassis, complete with PSU, covers, backplane, cables. No CPU or other logic boards needed. - HP 35721A monochrome monitor - Emulex TC12 tape controller or similar: Unibus->Pertec interface which emulates a "TS" device - ribbon cables for above -- controller -> Pertec-formatter tape drive. - Unibus ESDI controller - Pro/Venix docs (I'm using version 1.0 on a DEC Pro 350). - MFM drives: . CDC Wren II 9415-* . CMI CM-5412 . IMI 5012H . Maxstor XT-2085 . Micropolis 1324A . Priam V170 or V185 Thank you, John Singleton p.s. to check my reputation, see my ebay handle "MdntTrain". From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 30 14:35:17 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:35:17 -0400 Subject: S-100 MS DOS Support board PCBs Message-ID: <004101cd0eac$58a3b560$09eb2020$@YAHOO.COM> Hi I have ten (10) remaining S-100 MS DOS Support board PCBs left in case anyone would like one or more. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/MSDOS%20Board/MSDOS%20Board.htm This board should dramatically improve MS DOS compatibility on the S-100 bus using an S-100 8086 CPU board. It can be used by any 8 or 16 bit CPU. Basically it is the guts of a PC/AT motherboard minus the CPU, RAM, and ISA slots. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 30 14:38:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:38:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 30, 12 11:05:44 am Message-ID: > I suppose one could switch relays fast enough for some of the lower > notes, but I have to wonder how well relays would work at 500Hz and > above. As many of us know, there are high-speed relays, but they tend to have low-mass moving parts (for obvious reasons) and thus don't make a lound sound. After all, sound from a relay is essentially wasted energy, it's not unsful for the normal application of the relay. Is there a good reason not to use a loudpseaker to make sounds? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 30 14:18:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:18:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Family illness [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203292000.q2TK07Pp9568478@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 29, 12 01:00:06 pm Message-ID: > > > > > s/pub/hospital/ > > > > > > > No, not treatment for me. My father was taken very ill last week, I > > > > am visiting him every day, and hoping for the best... > > > > > > That sucks. My parents were in medical care far more than I might > > > > Thank you. Fortunately he's in what I consider to be a very good hospital > > and I am hoping for the best. He had certainly improved when I visited > > him today. > > All the best, then. This is really OT, but I think you'll all be pleased to know that my father is recovering. Tiday when I visited him, we had a long discussion about the relative desirability of the Nikon F2, Pentacon Super, Praktina IIA and Exakta Varex cameras. Maybe not a typical topic for hosptial converstaions, but... Thanks to everybody for all the 'Get Well Soon' messages ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 30 14:53:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:53:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 30, 12 12:22:01 pm Message-ID: > > > OK, I am also sure there are plenty of other organic substances > > around where which include an -OH group and thuys are techncially > > alcohols. > > Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by > chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or sugars. > Or even phenol, though that's getting a bit more borderline. I did state 'organic substances', and I meant that in the chemicla sense. That rules out metalic hydroxides (why only thoseo f alkali metals? Surely you don't class calcium hydroxide as an alcohol), water, and the like. I could certianly make a case that phenol was an alcohol... Of coruse ther are other roganic molecules with -OH groups which are not alcohols. The obbius class are the carboxylic acids which have a COOH group, a part of which is -OH, But my point was that there are plenty of substances found infoods which chemically are alcohols (but not ethanol, and quite likely not intoxicating), how to certain cultures handle those. > > > Which has just suggestesd a totally OT queestion to me. Some > > cultures prohibit the drinking of alcohol. This is normally taken to > > mean drinks containing ethanol. But how do they handle other -OH > > molecules in foods? > > I feel reasonably sure the answer is "they ignore them"; certainly in > the few cases I can answer confidently it is. Such prohibitions often > (usually?) are actually aimed at intoxication, by way of intoxicants; > equating that with the presence of ethanol leads to errors in both > directions. (Of course, how much people care about those errors > varies.) Yes, I thought as much... Why does 'Is electricity fire' from SYJMF keep running through my mind? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 30 14:56:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:56:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203301712.q2UHCW5O7143452@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 30, 12 10:12:32 am Message-ID: > > > > Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even by > > > chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or sugars. > > > Or even phenol, though that's getting a bit more borderline. > > > > Yes, I thought that was odd when I read it yesterday. Isn't an alcohol > > defined by "-COOH"? ($DEITY, organic chemistry was 40+ years ago, and > > just for fun.) > > -COOH is an organic acid. COOH is formic acid; CH3COOH is acetic acid and Don't you mean HCOOH is formic (methanoic) acid? > C00h is 3072. GROAN! -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 30 15:38:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120330132314.V39264@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 30 Mar 2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > OT question: What was the first "singing" computer peripheral ? > My guess is the IBM 1403 printer from 1959: > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/1403.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1401#Art_inspired_by_the_IBM_1401 > The Swedes played music with the Datasaab D21/D22 cpu in 1967. Such activities were unauthorized, and frowned on by "management". Because of that, they were extraordinarily poorly documented. I was shocked to find NO hits in Google for "Friden Waltz"! (Use quotation markse to reduce the false hits of "Friden and I waltzed all night", etc.) and barely any for the Marchant March. Alas, management is making our culture extinct. When they can block memories of such things, we are doomed. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 30 15:41:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120330134038.R39264@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Mar 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > I suppose you mean a peripheral that wasn't originally intended for > sound production? The first public demonstrations of computers playing > music were in 1951, but the peripherals used were more or less intended > to produce sound. . . . and prior to that, there was unauthorized "screwing around" From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 30 15:46:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120330081557.GD17709@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> <4F755246.7030206@brouhaha.com> <20120330081557.GD17709@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120330134446.J39264@shell.lmi.net> > > Where would something like Leroy Anderson's "The Typewriter" (1950) > > fit in to this? On Fri, 30 Mar 2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Not really, while it is a lovely piece, it is not played on a computer > peripheral. And I thought it would be understood that the player should > be the computer. It shows a prior "association" in terms of thinking about non-musical machines as being musical. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 30 15:51:48 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Mar 30, 12 08:56:18 pm" Message-ID: <201203302051.q2UKpm6s5963812@floodgap.com> > > -COOH is an organic acid. COOH is formic acid; CH3COOH is acetic acid and > > Don't you mean HCOOH is formic (methanoic) acid? See my hasty, abrupt followup to my initial reply. > > C00h is 3072. > > GROAN! I win! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't let 'em drive you crazy when it's within walking distance. ----------- From a50mhzham at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 16:30:48 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 16:30:48 -0500 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4f7626a2.28ad320a.5494.6a63@mx.google.com> At 12:56 AM 3/30/2012, you wrote: >On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 08:25:40PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > The singing disk drive is a timeless concept. > >OT question: What was the first "singing" computer peripheral ? > >My guess is the IBM 1403 printer from 1959: >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/1403.html >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1401#Art_inspired_by_the_IBM_1401 > >The Swedes played music with the Datasaab D21/D22 cpu in 1967. Well, this isn't that old, but it's early enough for me. We had a program for the TSS/8 system at UWM that would play Beatles songs to an AM radio by pulsing the blinkenlights on the front panel. As I recall, I ran it under TSS/8 despite a warning that the multiuser interupts would mess it up, which it did, but not horribly so. I think it was meant for OS/8 or something. This was in the 70's. -T 322 . [Commentary] "in a dying culture, snobs are an important natural resource" NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Mar 30 16:44:32 2012 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 22:44:32 +0100 Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <53A8D3FF2342426BB42899C5017FAFFC@Edicons.local> References: <7757082DA9A5476F8E33196C9AC25EF0@Edicons.local> <4F74E8C4.9030209@gifford.co.uk> <53A8D3FF2342426BB42899C5017FAFFC@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4F762940.40109@gifford.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Good Heavens!! > A survivor. I only saw it once or twice but Jon Giver worked on one for six > months. > I remember a gray rack mounted box with lamps and small toggle (Lemo type) > switches. I have just the card cage, no lights, switches, etc. Maybe a power supply and a blank front panel (19-inch). > Well John you have a real piece of UK computer history. There can't have > been that many made. Is there any identifying marks or labels on the rack? No, but the name "Arcturus" is on one of the PCBs. I'd better dig it out this weekend and get some photos! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 30 16:56:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:56:53 -0400 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: <4f7626a2.28ad320a.5494.6a63@mx.google.com> References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> <20120330055659.GB15222@Update.UU.SE> <4f7626a2.28ad320a.5494.6a63@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F762C25.7090304@neurotica.com> On 03/30/2012 05:30 PM, Tom wrote: > Well, this isn't that old, but it's early enough for me. We had a > program for the TSS/8 system at UWM that would play Beatles songs to an > AM radio by pulsing the blinkenlights on the front panel. Actually the relevant EMI came from the core memory's X/Y drivers, not the front panel, didn't it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 30 18:06:46 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 18:06:46 -0500 Subject: "Art" In-Reply-To: <20120330194703.8e95a4fa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120330194703.8e95a4fa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201203302307.q2UN6vCL067244@billy.ezwind.net> At 12:47 PM 3/30/2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: >Well. I have a disk platter like that one hanging at the wall in my >office at work. (Without the stupid clock stuff.) Yes, when I saw this Etsy, I looked up at the bare one on the shelf not far behind my office chair. I believe I got it from a Burroughs in the mid-80s that was too large for me to ever consider saving, that someone else was trashing, and they let me grab bits from it. - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 18:22:31 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 18:22:31 -0500 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F764037.4020701@gmail.com> On 03/30/2012 01:24 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 16:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> _not_ part of it (I do have spare non-mainstream drives like Teac >> FD55GFRs and Amiga "720K" drives and oddball Sony drives for the Tandy >> 1000, etc, but not a pile of FD235HDs, for example). > > I probably don't need to say this, but please do not abuse the Amiga > floppy drives too much - they are still a sought after commodity in > the Amiga community. Ditto with 5.25" and 8" drives, to be honest... at least, they seem utterly impossible to get around here. 3.5" HD are probably fair game at the moment, but even that won't last much longer I expect :-( cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 30 19:33:36 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203310033.UAA29217@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Not everything with a hydroxyl group is considered an alcohol, even >> by chemists. Alkali metal hydroxides, for example. Or water. Or >> sugars. Or even phenol, [...] > I did state 'organic substances', and I meant that in the chemicla > sense. That rules out metalic hydroxides (why only thoseo f alkali > metals? Surely you don't class calcium hydroxide as an alcohol), > water, and the like. True. (Why the alkali metals? Because those are the only ones I was certain formed stable hydroxides. My inorganic chemistry is not what it could be.) But there are lots of organic compounds with hydroxyls which aren't alcohols in any meaningful sense, such as sugars or, yes, the carboxylic acids. (I was wandering around wikipedia and stumbled across mellitic acid. Fascinating compound.) >> I feel reasonably sure the answer is "they ignore them"; certainly >> in the few cases I can answer confidently it is. Such prohibitions >> often (usually?) are actually aimed at intoxication, by way of >> intoxicants; [...] > Yes, I thought as much... Why does 'Is electricity fire' from SYJMF > keep running through my mind? I was thinking much the same thing, only less formalized. (In particular, I didn't recall the source of the story.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 19:39:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:39:19 -0400 Subject: Family illness [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85F88D66-F62A-4865-8548-C20DA59255FE@gmail.com> On Mar 30, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > This is really OT, but I think you'll all be pleased to know that my > father is recovering. Tiday when I visited him, we had a long discussion > about the relative desirability of the Nikon F2, Pentacon Super, Praktina > IIA and Exakta Varex cameras. Maybe not a typical topic for hosptial > converstaions, but... Glad to hear it. I'll advocate for the F2 any day; I still occasionally use my father's that he got while serving in the Navy. I've mostly given up film because of the difficulty and expense of developing it, not the cameras (or at least not that camera). :-) - Dave From alberto at a2sistemi.org Fri Mar 30 03:41:14 2012 From: alberto at a2sistemi.org (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:41:14 +0200 Subject: Machine to identify In-Reply-To: <20120330063152.GA17709@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <005d01cd0e50$e52df7e0$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> > Bondwell model 14? It says 14 on the top at least. > http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/bw1214.htm You are right ! I have remembered only with your pictures. But ... the machine is on the snow ? :) Alberto. ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione MUSEO DEL COMPUTER Onlus Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 1856032 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 2046034 Mobile +39 335 6026632 Sito web : http://www.museodelcomputer.org Mail : alberto at museodelcomputer.org Filiale di Torino : Tel 011 23415829 Filiale di Roma : Tel 06 98357066 ------------------------------------------------------ Le telefonate con numero nascosto sono filtrate Calls with no caller identifier are filtered ------------------------------------------------------ From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Mar 30 08:32:07 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:32:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Switch Handles Message-ID: <201203301332.q2UDW7Z6021189@hugin2.pdp8online.com> A company has made some replica 8/E handles and has excess they are willing to sell at $1.50 per handle. I think they have around 25 of each color left. Due to the company not wanting to deal with a bunch of small orders I may need to be an intermediary. Pictures of the switch handles next to my 8/E handles and two 8/M handles sitting on top at URL below. It also has a picture of the panel they made. They said ok to share the picture but I can't say why they made them. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/switches/ The color of one matches my 8/E pretty well but the other doesn't. You can also see for one of the colors my 8/E doesn't match my 8/M that well either. If interested email me with how many you are wanting of which color. From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Mar 30 10:21:06 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:21:06 -0400 Subject: OSI boot disks In-Reply-To: <4F75570F.6080805@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F75570F.6080805@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20120330152106.GA24027@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:47:43PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On 3/29/2012 10:56 PM, Dave wrote: > >I believe it's possible to reconstruct a boot disk over a serial port, > > but I'd rather keep that as a last resort. That would be an exercise > > much like building a ship in a bottle. > > > > > I'll second this -- I have exactly the same machine, with exactly > the same problem -- no bootable media. I was actually preparing to > send out a similar mail in the next few weeks; you beat me to it :). > I should be able to make one though I don't have any unmodified versions. I and some other people modified the OS in high school to make it better to use. I haven't figured out which is the best version from the disks I have. If you don't get someone with normal disks email me and I can make you copies of one of mine. The modifications were for the video board version so if you have a serial machine I will have to see if they are useable. From jgh at mdfs.net Fri Mar 30 10:43:00 2012 From: jgh at mdfs.net (J.G.Harston) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 16:43:00 +0100 Subject: You should have senn this.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120329224344.GA96705@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F748CD9.27426.1A3EE03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <393b01ae288610229ab04b6903e2e5a4@mdfs.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Is this just a manifestation of "any electromechanical widget will >> make a somewhat musical noise if you pulse it the right way?". > > Essentially, but done with cheap, available hardware and nothing to > solder that's more complicated than a power cable. People have made line printers play music since time immemorial, and one of the early LEO tests was to get the delay lines to play music. JGH From jonas at otter.se Fri Mar 30 14:07:45 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:07:45 +0200 Subject: another hidden pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F760481.206@otter.se> On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:57:58 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Which has just suggestesd a totally OT queestion to me. Some cultures > prohibit the drinking of alcohol. This is normally taken to mean drinks > containing ethanol. But how do they handle other -OH molecules in foods? Those cultures, and their rules prohibiting the drinking of alcohol, are quite old AFAIK. Without knowing any details of their history, it would seem logical to me to assume that they would not be aware of the presence of other -OH molecules, so they would have no special rules about them. I suppose the rules are religious? If so, some of them may well be reasonable for health reasons, but others would be illogical or based on misconceptions of physical facts. /Jonas From rbarline at mac.com Fri Mar 30 16:26:27 2012 From: rbarline at mac.com (Ric Barline) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:26:27 -0700 Subject: help with H11 and H27 Message-ID: Hi. Brand new to this list. I joined because based on your past posts I believe you guys might be able to help me with my problem. I just acquired an old Heathkit system consisting of an H19 terminal, an H11 computer, and an H27 disk drive. I have managed to get the H19 and H11 talking to each other (see my short video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZ3HHd1V3o&feature=youtu.be but I don't have any documentation for the H27 so I don't know how to use it with the H11. I have two floppies that came with it (actually I have a bunch that came with it as shown in my photo gallery http://gallery.me.com/rbarline#100619), one titled "Softech UCSD H11 System Disk" and one titled "Softech UCSD System H11 Utilities". Can anyone help me figure out what to type on the terminal in order to get the disk drive to start the boot process? Thanks in advance. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 03:20:20 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 01:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? Message-ID: <1333182020.47937.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> for the purpose of expunging the screen rot. Need to get behind the screen thingee there From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 31 04:30:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 02:30:24 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II TRSDOS: paranoia strikes deep Message-ID: <4F76CEB0.4050508@brouhaha.com> It looks like the developers of TRS-80 Model II TRSDOS were very paranoid that someone might be able to bypass the filesystem and access data on a floppy directly. I'm not sure if their primary concern was file password protection, or if they had other reasons. Obviously you could write a program that accesses the floppy directly, by talking to the FDC and DMAC chips yourself, and there's not really anything that can be done to prevent that. Oddly enough, this was exactly *opposite* to what Apple did in Apple DOS. Apple published the APIs to read and write sectors (RWTS), but never published the "File Manager" APIs that allowed access to the file system through means other than passing commands through the character output vector (e.g., the BASIC statement PRINT CHR$(4);"OPEN FOO"). I'll mostly describe how things work in Model II TRSDOS 1.2, the earliest version I've been able to obtain. I haven't studied 2.0 nearly as much yet. The TRSDOS 1.2 "kernel" consists of three parts, while later versions are more monolithic. The Model II boot ROM loads all of drive 0 track 0 (single density, 26 sectors of 128 bytes) into memory starting at 0e00. First it looks for the four characters "DIAG" at 1400 and "BOOT" at 1000. If either are missing, it refuses to proceed. It calls the code at 1404, which in TRSDOS is a simple hardware diagnostic. When that returns, it jumps to the first stage boot loader code at 1004. Some other operating systems don't bother with a diagnostic, and just start their boot code at 1404, never returning to the ROM. The first stage boot loader actually understands the TRSDOS filesystem enough to find the directory entries of files in TRSDOS load module format, and load them into memory. In 1.2, it loads "IODVRS/SYS" and then "TRSDOS/SYS", and jumps into the latter. The Model II TRSDOS filesystem is similar in many regards to that of Model I TRSDOS, but not enough to actually be compatible. Unsurprisingly, it looks like an intermediate step in the evolution from Model I TRSDOS to Model III TRSDOS. As in Model III TRSDOS, files can only have a single directory entry, with a limited number of extents. IODVRS/SYS contains, as the name implies, the low level I/O drivers for the system, including the keyboard, display, printer, and floppy drives, the dispatching for system (SVC) calls, and a few utility SVCs. However, it only contains the SVC handlers for services 0-28, the I/O functions and basic utility SVCs. Note in particular that it contains no file system code. IODVRS/SYS is conceptually similar to the CP/M BIOS, though lacking CP/Ms charming simplicity. IODVRS/SYS provides several undocumented SVCs for internal use by TRSDOS, including floppy subsystem initialization (13), floppy sector read (14), and floppy sector write (16). Note that at the time IODVRS/SYS is loaded, no call is made into it to initialize it. TRSDOS/SYS, however, is called after being loaded. It basically performs the TRSDOS initialization that only has to happen at boot time. It has another implementation of filesystem reading and load module format handling, very similar to what is present in the stage 1 boot, but now instead of talking to the FDC and DMAC directly, it uses the undocumented floppy SVCs described previously. After various initialization, it loads SYSRES/SYS and jumps into it. SYSRES/SYS contains the filesystem code and other relatively high-level TRSDOS infrastructure code. It generally relies on SVC calls into IODVRS/SYS to perform all I/O, and has very little other dependence on IODVRS/SYS internals. This is conceptually similar to the CP/M BDOS. It loads system overlays to handle some SVCs and user commands. Overlays SYS0/SYS through SYS9/SYS are small overlays, occupying one disk granule (five sectors) and loading into 2200-26ff. Other overlays may be larger, and load at 2800 or higher. Many of the overlays *do* depend on knowledge of the internals of SYSRES/SYS, directly accessing subroutines and data structures without the use of vector tables or the like. This means that SYSRES/SYS and the overlays must have been built at the same time, and would generally not be interchangeable with earlier or later releases. Anyhow, getting back to the paranoia part. Someone apparently decided that simply not documenting the SVCs that provide sector-level access to the floppy was not sufficient to thwart those that might want to bypass the filesystem. After TRSDOS/SYS uses those SVCs for its part in the boot process, it actually *removes* them from the SVC vector table, and sets up jumps to them at undocumented internal TRSDOS locations 1130 (read sector) and 1133 (write sector). In TRSDOS 1.2, access to all of the system files, including overlays, is done through the file system. The system files have normal file system entries. Unlike Model I TRSDOS, neither the system file directory entries nor the file contents need to be in any special location on the disk. In TRSDOS 2.0, things are much more monolithic. The stage 1 boot code only loads and jumps into a single file, SYSRES/SYS. The boot code does not care where this file is located, but other parts of the system do. All of the overlays, small and large, are stored in a single file, SYSTEM/SYS, which is required to start on the track after the primary directory. The first sector of SYSTEM/SYS contains a kind of overlay directory that gives the track and sector numbers at which each overlay starts. There is perhaps some advantage to putting all of the overlays in a single file, since the number of directory entries on the diskette is limited to 96. However, the need for a second, special directory mechanism for overlays is ugly, even if it is only a simple one. Requiring the system files to be at fixed locations on the disk (at least relative to the primary directory) might be a reasonable requirement if it yielded some performance gain, but it generally doesn't. (With 1.2, the system files are set up when the disk is formatted, so even though they *could* be anywhere, in practice they are grouped together.) TRSDOS 2.0 introduced changes to the disk organization, such that TRSDOS 1.2 and 2.0 diskettes are not interchangeable, except that the 2.0 XFERSYS utility can convert a 1.2 diskette to 2.0 format. The disk organization changes are basically gratuitous, and don't provide any benefit to the user, while obviously being a great inconvenience to users with TRSDOS 1.2. They mashed the GAT (granule allocation table) and HIT (hash index table), which were sectors 1 and 2 of the directory track in 1.2, into just sector 1 in 2.0. In 1.2, the directory occupied sectors 3-26, while in 2.0 it occupies sectors 2-25. The only apparent rationale for doing this is to free up sector 26 on the directory track. In TRSDOS 1.2, sector 26 was not used on any track but the directory track, for any purpose. In TRSDOS 2.0, sector 26 of *every* track is used to store five bytes of unique disk ID, to better detect disk changes. (it has been suggested that those bytes might also have been used for software copy protection.) However, rather than mashing the GAT and HIT together, which made it impossible to support larger disks such as double-sided disks, they easily could have special cased the directory track(s) and stored the disk ID in either the GAT or HIT sector. TRSDOS 4.0 introduced much larger changes to the disk organization, in order to support double-sided disks and hard disks. I haven't yet begun to dig into the 4.0 code. Eric From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 05:04:07 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 05:04:07 -0500 Subject: help with H11 and H27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: need a manual? http://pointdouglas.com/SEBHC/H11/operation%20manual/ On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Ric Barline wrote: > Hi. Brand new to this list. I joined because based on your past posts I believe you guys might be able to help me with my problem. I just acquired an old Heathkit system consisting of an H19 terminal, an H11 computer, and an H27 disk drive. I have managed to get the H19 and H11 talking to each other (see my short video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZ3HHd1V3o&feature=youtu.be but I don't have any documentation for the H27 so I don't know how to use it with the H11. ?I have two floppies that came with it (actually I have a bunch that came with it as shown in my photo gallery http://gallery.me.com/rbarline#100619), one titled "Softech UCSD H11 System Disk" and one titled "Softech UCSD System H11 Utilities". > > Can anyone help me figure out what to type on the terminal in order to get the disk drive to start the boot process? Thanks in advance. From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Mar 31 06:08:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:08:19 +0200 Subject: What's that TeK Box? Message-ID: <20120331110819.GC61592@beast.freibergnet.de> http://www.tiffe.de/images/Unbenannt.JPG This is one of the things in Dortmund, anyone know what this could be? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Mar 31 09:20:32 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:20:32 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333182020.47937.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1333182020.47937.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F7712B0.7040408@atarimuseum.com> Dropping them from a high place usually does the trick ;-) Chris M wrote: > for the purpose of expunging the screen rot. Need to get behind the screen thingee there > > From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 09:43:42 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OSI boot disks In-Reply-To: <20120330152106.GA24027@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <4F75570F.6080805@mail.msu.edu> <20120330152106.GA24027@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <1333205022.56577.YahooMailNeo@web162902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi David, I would be grateful for a modified boot disk, as long as it boots.? All my working OS disks were also heavily modified as well, although I did keep a write-protected canonical OS65D 3.2 disk.? Do you remember what modifications you had made? I know I have the whole set of disks somewhere, but I just cannot find them.? If you are willing to mail me a disk, I would be happy to compensate you for media and postage.?? I plan to attend the VCF East this May, so perhaps I can buy you a beer as well.? I'd love to meet up and compare notes, and shoot the breeze. One thing I'd like to do is write a little utility to bootstrap an OSI disk system to create bootable disks over the serial port.? Ed wrote a couple of routines to extract entire disks (raw) or all but track 0 (formatted.)? However, it seems I will have to fill in a way to re-create the disk from the images.? When you sent me the Beta/65 images, did you use Ed's utility, or was it one of your own? Come to think of it, it would be really nice if you are able to send an image of a bootable disk as well, so I could compare it with the bootable physical disk, and (with your permission) also post it on the web site, along with my C1 disk images, and any others I can gather.? I think one of the biggest challenges for OSI owners nowadays is getting a bootable system, and finding usable software.? I recently had PCB's made to replace the A13 paddle-boards with a little extra circuitry for motor control and data-separator, and some extra jumpers to allow Thanks again for your offer!? Best regards, Dave >________________________________ > From: David Gesswein >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:21 AM >Subject: Re: OSI boot disks > >On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:47:43PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> On 3/29/2012 10:56 PM, Dave wrote: >> >I believe it's possible to reconstruct a boot disk over a serial port, >> > but I'd rather keep that as a last resort.? That would be an exercise >> > much like building a ship in a bottle. >> > >> > >> I'll second this -- I have exactly the same machine, with exactly >> the same problem -- no bootable media.? I was actually preparing to >> send out a similar mail in the next few weeks; you beat me to it :). >> >I should be able to make one though I don't have any unmodified versions. >I and some other people modified the OS in high school to make it >better to use. I haven't figured out which is the best version from >the disks I have. If you don't get someone with normal disks email me and I >can make you copies of one of mine. The modifications were for the video >board version so if you have a serial machine I will have to see if they are >useable. > > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 12:54:22 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:54:22 -0500 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333182020.47937.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1333182020.47937.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's been a while, but I think there is a round plastic cap on the back that can be popped off. There is a screw behind it, and removing that should lossen the rear cover. If there is a leveler post there it might have to be fully extended. Paul On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Chris M wrote: > > for the purpose of expunging the screen rot. Need to get behind the screen thingee there From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 13:01:47 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making music with computer hardware... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1333216907.17699.YahooMailNeo@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Bohemian Rhapsody http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 31 13:41:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:41:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <201203310033.UAA29217@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Mar 30, 12 08:33:36 pm Message-ID: > True. (Why the alkali metals? Because those are the only ones I was > certain formed stable hydroxides. My inorganic chemistry is not what The alkaline earth metals (magnesium, calcium, etc) do as well, I think. I don;t know if tehr metals do off the top of my head. > it could be.) But there are lots of organic compounds with hydroxyls > which aren't alcohols in any meaningful sense, such as sugars or, yes, Sure. OK, let me re-state the original question. There are many organic compounds that are classed as alcohols. Some of them are found in food. DO cultures that prohibit 'alcohol' only prohibit ethanol, or do then prohibit these too? > the carboxylic acids. (I was wandering around wikipedia and stumbled > across mellitic acid. Fascinating compound.) IIRC, that's a benzene rign with a caboxylic acid group on each carhon. If I am right, there's soemthing even stranger, mellitic anhydride. You take the above molecule and eleimite 3 molecules of water from it (to over-simplify things). Ther result is a benzene ring with a C=O on each location, and those are pairwise joind by further oxygen atoms. The result reacts violently with water, which is hardly suprising. The oddity is that the formula for it is C_12 O_9 . In other words, carbon and oxygen only. Is this a legitimate oxide of carbon? If so, is it organic (oxides of carbon like CO and CO_2 are normally taken to be inorganic). As ever, when you think you have a classification for things, there are borderline cases :-) > > Yes, I thought as much... Why does 'Is electricity fire' from SYJMF > > keep running through my mind? > > I was thinking much the same thing, only less formalized. (In > particular, I didn't recall the source of the story.) I may have mis-rememebred the source. It's certainly Ricahrd Feynman, but I can't rememebr which of the 2 autobiographies contains it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 31 13:44:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:44:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Family illness [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <85F88D66-F62A-4865-8548-C20DA59255FE@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Mar 30, 12 08:39:19 pm Message-ID: > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > This is really OT, but I think you'll all be pleased to know that my > > father is recovering. Tiday when I visited him, we had a long discussion > > about the relative desirability of the Nikon F2, Pentacon Super, Praktina > > IIA and Exakta Varex cameras. Maybe not a typical topic for hosptial > > converstaions, but... > > Glad to hear it. I'll advocate for the F2 any day; I still occasionally I will agree it's a fine camera (I don;t have one, only a plain Nikon F), but I do also have a soft spot for the East German cameras, many of which are seriously under-rated and have very good lenses. All of them have soemthing desriable about them, BTW. I do like the slow speeds to 12 secodns amd the flim cutting knife on my Exakta :-). I do like the breech-lock mount nad the motordrive coupling on the Praktina. Alas I don't ahve the Pentacon Super... > use my father's that he got while serving in the Navy. I've mostly given > up film because of the difficulty and expense of developing it, not the > cameras (or at least not that camera). :-) It's not that hard to do it yourself.. And the equipment is not expensive. -tony From shumaker at att.net Sat Mar 31 14:00:28 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:00:28 -0700 Subject: help with H11 and H27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F77544C.5080600@att.net> that's quite a score - especially the software! Steve On 3/30/2012 2:26 PM, Ric Barline wrote: > Hi. Brand new to this list. I joined because based on your past posts I believe you guys might be able to help me with my problem. I just acquired an old Heathkit system consisting of an H19 terminal, an H11 computer, and an H27 disk drive. I have managed to get the H19 and H11 talking to each other (see my short video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZ3HHd1V3o&feature=youtu.be but I don't have any documentation for the H27 so I don't know how to use it with the H11. I have two floppies that came with it (actually I have a bunch that came with it as shown in my photo gallery http://gallery.me.com/rbarline#100619), one titled "Softech UCSD H11 System Disk" and one titled "Softech UCSD System H11 Utilities". > > Can anyone help me figure out what to type on the terminal in order to get the disk drive to start the boot process? Thanks in advance. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 31 14:00:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:00:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333182020.47937.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Mar 31, 12 01:20:20 am Message-ID: > > > for the purpose of expunging the screen rot. Need to get behind the screen thingee there First extend the little leg as far as it will go (put the monitor the right way up and press the button on the side, them lift the back edge). With the leg extended. put the monitor face-down. On the back there's a circular plastic cap. Prise (Pry?) this off wit ha screwdriver and undo the screw thus exposed. Then lift off the cassing. >From what I remember, and it's been years since I've been inside one, theres a single PCB on the top (component-side down) and the CRT. I think you have to discharge and disconnect the anode connector from the CRT and remvoe the CRT base connector. I can't remember how the yoke is conencted ot the PCB, it's it's plugged in, it's easy, if it's hardwired, I'd desolder the wires rather than removign the yoke from the CRT at this stage. Then remvoe the PCB screws and the PCB, I think 4 more screws retain the chassins metalwork and the CRT, it then all comes apart. Be careful if you are tryign to cure screen rot. I am sure the second faceplate layre in this monitor is part of the implosion protection ssytem, and the idea of removing it and leaving it out, or not proeprly bonding it to the CRT envelope would seem to produce a dangerous monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 31 14:04:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:04:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7712B0.7040408@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Mar 31, 12 10:20:32 am Message-ID: > > Dropping them from a high place usually does the trick ;-) While this is probably a quicker way of gettign the casing off, the time taken to put it back on again is much longer than with the 'remove the screw' method. And I think it's the total repair time that's important. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 14:06:28 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:06:28 -0700 Subject: What's that TeK Box? In-Reply-To: <20120331110819.GC61592@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120331110819.GC61592@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > http://www.tiffe.de/images/Unbenannt.JPG > > This is one of the things in Dortmund, anyone know what this could be? It looks like a 41XXB workstation base. Is there a nameplate with contents on the back. It usually lists the boards and options. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Mar 31 14:14:53 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:14:53 -0700 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System Message-ID: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> Google Maps will release a version for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment System. http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. Michael Holley From shumaker at att.net Sat Mar 31 14:27:30 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:27:30 -0700 Subject: help with H11 and H27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F775AA2.2070402@att.net> There are folks on a separate Heath list that have H11s. Technically their focus is 8bit but there are several with these systems (I've got one that has yet to run but there are others that are functional) Try here: Society for Eight Bit Heathkit Computing group homepage: http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en. group email: sebhc at googlegroups.com Steve Shumaker On 3/30/2012 2:26 PM, Ric Barline wrote: > Hi. Brand new to this list. I joined because based on your past posts I believe you guys might be able to help me with my problem. I just acquired an old Heathkit system consisting of an H19 terminal, an H11 computer, and an H27 disk drive. I have managed to get the H19 and H11 talking to each other (see my short video athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZ3HHd1V3o&feature=youtu.be but I don't have any documentation for the H27 so I don't know how to use it with the H11. I have two floppies that came with it (actually I have a bunch that came with it as shown in my photo galleryhttp://gallery.me.com/rbarline#100619), one titled "Softech UCSD H11 System Disk" and one titled "Softech UCSD System H11 Utilities". > > Can anyone help me figure out what to type on the terminal in order to get the disk drive to start the boot process? Thanks in advance. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 31 14:35:18 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:35:18 -0700 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> References: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: At 12:14 PM -0700 3/31/12, Michael Holley wrote: >Google Maps will release a version for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment >System. http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps > > > >It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. Isn't this a day early? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 31 14:41:16 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> from Michael Holley at "Mar 31, 12 12:14:53 pm" Message-ID: <201203311941.q2VJfGoU11599962@floodgap.com> > Google Maps will release a version for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment > System. http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps > > It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. I confidently await the Commodore 64 version on 5.25" floppy. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 14:49:00 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:49:00 -0700 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> References: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F775FAC.1070208@gmail.com> The video is pretty funny but, the actual 8bit google maps is awesome. You can go to streetview in 8 bit. Just hit the quest button on google maps. On 3/31/2012 12:14 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > Google Maps will release a version for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment > System. http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps > > > > It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. > > > > Michael Holley > > > From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 14:57:03 2012 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:57:03 -0400 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> References: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > Google Maps will release a version for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment > System. http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps > > > > It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. > > http://8bitcity.com/map?New%20York# =Dan _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 col's !! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 31 15:17:39 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:17:39 -0700 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: <201203311941.q2VJfGoU11599962@floodgap.com> References: <201203311941.q2VJfGoU11599962@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 12:41 PM -0700 3/31/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Google Maps will release a version for the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment >> System. http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps >> >> It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. > >I confidently await the Commodore 64 version on 5.25" floppy. For the C-64, I'd prefer if it shipped on a SD card, and it had better work over ethernet! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 31 15:39:13 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201203312039.QAA15325@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> the carboxylic acids. (I was wandering around wikipedia and >> stumbled across mellitic acid. Fascinating compound.) > IIRC, that's a benzene rign with a caboxylic acid group on each > carhon. Yes. Percarboxylbenzene, I suppose you could call it. > If I am right, there's soemthing even stranger, mellitic anhydride. Wikipedia had a link to that, too. I didn't follow it. It occurs to me that there's another potential way of constructing anhydrides of mellitic acid: linking multiple molecules together by dehydrating a pair of carboxyls on different rings. Carried to its logical conclusion, this becomes a way of polymerizing mellitic acid. I haven't thought enough about steric strain issues, but it would be really neat to build a sheet of benzene rings linked together into a triangular mesh with carboxyl-anhydride links. > [It] reacts violently with water, which is hardly suprising. Indeed. The above polymer, if it can be constructed, probably at least as much so. (I suspect it quite possibly will decompose to ordinary mellitic anhydride, perhaps even so much so that it is impossible to prepare the polymer....) This begins to remind me of _Ignition_. > The oddity is that the formula for it is C_12 O_9 . In other words, > carbon and oxygen only. Is this a legitimate oxide of carbon? Probably about as much so as mellitic acid is an alcohol. :) Wikipedia's mellitic anhydride page calls it one and has a list of many other "exotic" C_nO_m compounds, such as carbon suboxide (C3O2). On the other hand, an oxide of carbon that `burns' (reacts violently and exothermically) with water is a somewhat disturbing concept. > If so, is it organic (oxides of carbon like CO and CO_2 are normally > taken to be inorganic). With a benzene ring in the middle of it? I would class it so, FWTMBW. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 17:28:36 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:28:36 +0100 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> References: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 31 March 2012 20:14, Michael Holley wrote: > Google Maps will ?release a version for the ?8-bit Nintendo Entertainment > System. ?http://www.youtube.com/googlemaps > > It appears that the NES has a problem with the cartridge connector. That is /wonderful/. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mwichary at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 20:32:05 2012 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:32:05 -0700 Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: References: <002b01cd0f72$8e0568e0$aa103aa0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > Isn't this a day early? You?re most likely in one of the late timezones. :?) Marcin From barythrin at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 20:36:04 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1333244164.99884.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Not that anyone would worry but mine arrived safe and sound. Thanks! From barythrin at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 20:48:33 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New software for the Nintendo Entertainment System In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1333244913.30201.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Finally! Google maps will support contiki? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 19:36:24 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:36:24 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 103, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?Ric Barline > To:?cctech at classiccmp.org > Date:?Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:26:27 -0700 > Subject:?help with H11 and H27 > Hi. Brand new to this list. I joined because based on your past posts I believe you guys might be able to help me with my problem. I just acquired an old Heathkit system consisting of an H19 terminal, an H11 computer, and an H27 disk drive. I have managed to get the H19 and H11 talking to each other (see my short video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZ3HHd1V3o&feature=youtu.be but I don't have any documentation for the H27 so I don't know how to use it with the H11. ?I have two floppies that came with it (actually I have a bunch that came with it as shown in my photo gallery http://gallery.me.com/rbarline#100619), one titled "Softech UCSD H11 System Disk" and one titled "Softech UCSD System H11 Utilities". > > Can anyone help me figure out what to type on the terminal in order to get the disk drive to start the boot process? Thanks in advance. The Rhode Island Computer Museum has the same system, but no software. https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/heathkit-h-11 It would be great if you could make images of the diskettes and send them to Al Kossow for archiving. -- Michael Thompson From cruff at ruffspot.net Sat Mar 31 19:45:49 2012 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:45:49 -0600 Subject: Tape Storage Formats (was: Pertec interface) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DA69DFE-6E02-452C-86ED-C24FB08F6C4A@ruffspot.net> At work (National Center for Atmospheric Research), we commonly stored tape contents in the Cray COS blocked data set format. It is pretty reasonable as it contains record and block control words that allow you to seek both forward and backward within the dataset, and to retain tape marks as end of file or end of dataset marks. There were many tapes containing historical weather observations ingested and stored on the Mass Storage System (MSS) in this format. While the MSS has been replaced by an HPSS archive, most of the 2 PB of data were migrated into it, so undoubtedly there are still COS blocked data set tape images in the archive. If anyone has data stored in this format, I do have some C code that will read and write it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 31 19:56:49 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? Message-ID: <1333241809.2908.yint-ygo-j2me@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> There are no screws specific to keeping the back cover on. The only screw/s have to do with the orientation contraption. Do I remove that and use a case popper like a mac? ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 3:04 PM EDT Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Dropping them from a high place usually does the trick ;-) > >While this is probably a quicker way of gettign the casing off, the time >taken to put it back on again is much longer than with the 'remove the >screw' method. And I think it's the total repair time that's important. > >-tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 20:46:26 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:46:26 -0400 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay Message-ID: >Dave McGuire mcguire at neurotica.com >On 03/25/2012 02:50 PM, James Gessling wrote: >> Isn't this just a piece of plastic with a logo embossed in it? And >> why does anyone think Red's Dream is so great anyway? I'm not >> bidding. > > The whole computer would've been much more interesting. If the >starting price weren't so high, I'd have placed a bid just out of >sympathy for someone with such a wife. > > -Dave I thought that the RICM had one of these. It turns out that we have two PII-9 systems that they were made after the Viacom Systems buyout so it doesn't say Pixar on the die-cast front cover. I will add more pictures and details shortly. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pixar-image-computer -- Michael Thompson