From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 00:42:50 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:42:50 -0800 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: <50B70721.90300@sydex.com> References: , , , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , , , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, , <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> ,<50B70721.90300@sydex.com> Message-ID: No, I'm looking for a chip that would run reset andbattery voltage for static RAM.I'm trying to repair battery damage done on the power unit boardof my MA2000 modules. It was mounted as a black epoxy covereddie so no part number. Still it was likely a NS standard partor else how would they get the naked die to mount. Atleast that is what I'm thinking although it may have beena Maxim part bought as a naked die.Dwight > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:56:33 -0800 > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: > Subject: Re: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet > > On 11/28/2012 09:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > Hi Does anyone have a data book for National Semiconductor fromaround > > 1990 plus or minus a few years?I'm looking for the part number of a > > system management chip thatwould have been used with the NSC800 > > parts.A part number or scan would be great.Dwight > > > > Oh--and the other member was the NSC830/831 - the ROM+I/O+. Roughly, > the 8355 equivalent, where the NSC810 was the 8155 equivalent. > > --CHuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 00:56:10 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 00:56:10 -0600 Subject: Computing at Bell Labs Holmdel Message-ID: Recently posted on the excellent AT&T Tech Channel YouTube feed, a 1970s-era employee orientation film for the Bell Labs Holmdel Computing Center in New Jersey. Lots to enjoy here for ccmp fans but especially those of IBM Mainframe and unit record equipment: PartI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMYiktO0D64& Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aVOIuKVUc -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Dec 1 10:09:45 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 08:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale Message-ID: Dear CC Talkers and VCF Fans: The Vintage Computer Festival is currently securing funding for operations and storage of the VCF Archives for the next 6 months. As such, the VCF is conducting a limited sale of select items of the VCF Archives. As the VCF Archives pretty much contains everything, and due to current time restraints, the sale will be held as such: contact me (Sellam) with a wish list, and I'll indicate which of your requested items I could offer with a description and offer price. We can haggle out a deal from there. As my funding needs surpass my ability to deal with many small transactions, I am necessarily limiting the sales to items of a value of at least $250. This does not mean I will attempt to jack up the prices, but I would prefer to make single transactions that have a value of $250 or more. I apologize for the unorthodox nature of this sale but I am in an unorthodox situation and this is the surest way I know to raise the funds necessary to secure the archives. Please e-mail me with your wish lists directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 10:49:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 14:49:48 -0200 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale References: Message-ID: Beyond the sale, mind if someone offers a (small) donation? Maybe a paypal account for some helping? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 2:09 PM Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale > > Dear CC Talkers and VCF Fans: > > The Vintage Computer Festival is currently securing funding for > operations and storage of the VCF Archives for the next 6 months. As > such, the VCF is conducting a limited sale of select items of the VCF > Archives. > > As the VCF Archives pretty much contains everything, and due to current > time restraints, the sale will be held as such: contact me (Sellam) with a > wish list, and I'll indicate which of your requested items I could offer > with a description and offer price. We can haggle out a deal from there. > > As my funding needs surpass my ability to deal with many small > transactions, I am necessarily limiting the sales to items of a value of > at least $250. This does not mean I will attempt to jack up the prices, > but I would prefer to make single transactions that have a value of $250 > or more. > > I apologize for the unorthodox nature of this sale but I am in an > unorthodox situation and this is the surest way I know to raise the funds > necessary to secure the archives. > > Please e-mail me with your wish lists directly. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > VintageTech > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always > simple. From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 12:26:15 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 18:26:15 +0000 Subject: Do you like RS232? Message-ID: If you answered yes: http://rs232club.org/ Join the other 5 members in talking about the classic serial protocol! *Not* the club song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDlj0jBtYmQ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 12:44:18 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 18:44:18 +0000 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > If you answered yes: > > http://rs232club.org/ > sad sad sad http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=eq+protocol oops I have teh protocol toys too Dave admitting nothing > Join the other 5 members in talking about the classic serial protocol! > > *Not* the club song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDlj0jBtYmQ > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 1 13:38:04 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 14:38:04 -0500 Subject: N8VEM home brew computing article Message-ID: <000601cdcffb$7b1afe80$7150fb80$@YAHOO.COM> Hi One of the N8VEM builders wrote a draft magazine article that provides a great overview of the N8VEM home brew computing project. It is so good I thought other hobbyists would like to read it and better understand what we are doing. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/file/61597682/N8VEM%20article.doc Most of these PCBs I have physically on the shelf waiting to go to builders. Others will be reordered and builders always have the option of getting their own based on the information on the website. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB%20Inventory Please send me an email if interested. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 1 14:06:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 15:06:14 -0500 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> On 12/01/2012 01:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > If you answered yes: > > http://rs232club.org/ > > Join the other 5 members in talking about the classic serial protocol! SIX members! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 14:11:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:11:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121201114408.N16239@shell.lmi.net> > > Seagate 212 drive, with formed clear plastic top cover; probably a > > booth demo for a tradeshow 2 heads (one inner, one outer on top of > > single platter nd another 2 on bottom, I think, for "4 heads 3-g cylinders" on single platter. On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > I remember something about that drive. It used two heads, one for the > inner radious and one for the outer radius to improve the access time. except that I don't think that it called it "cylinder 0 - 305 accessed byhead A and cylinder 306 - 611 accessed by head B". Instead, it had cylinders 0 - 305 of each head. Continued with other ST2XX drives? Therefore, "First" drive where even cylinder 0 of one head was intrinsically less reliable than cylinder 305 of a different head. Time to re-design the premise of allocation to outer cylinders first! "first" drives to misrepresent it's physical geometry to the controller? "first" half height drive? THIS one had a clear plastic top cover, which was often done for the drives on display in tradeshows (Comdex, Wescon, etc.) THIS ONE may have been THE ONE used to INTRODUCE half-height drives, multiple heads per surface, misrepresentation [TO THE CONTROLLER] of geometry, etc. (Or it may have been one of millions used in later years to show "BEFORE" when introducing more modern drives.) > Now days 10MB would fit on a single track with room to spare. or as less than 1/1000the the capacity of fingernail sized MicroSD "Someday, you'll be able to fit the entire Encyclopedia Britannica into a bread-box" ("Britannica as unit of measure" for Moore's law, and new technology hype) : "Never happen. We're not in the information business; we're in the leather bookbinding business." - a Britannica engineer (Mere fact that Britannica employed engineers showed that he was wrong.) > I wonder if one of the museums would be interested in an artifact like > that. It's too important an artifact for that! :-) It got claimed here. (home of the BEST collectors) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:30:02 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 20:30:02 +0000 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> References: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1 December 2012 20:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/01/2012 01:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> If you answered yes: >> >> http://rs232club.org/ >> >> Join the other 5 members in talking about the classic serial protocol! > > SIX members! Seven now. I thought promoting it might result in an explosion of interest - why, that's a 40% increase in membership in just a couple of hours! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 14:35:29 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 15:35:29 -0500 Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <21B4D620-684B-4512-8080-7BA11354E691@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2012, at 5:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Absolutely correct. I think that I make more typos than anybody else >>> here. > On Fri, 30 Nov 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Err, not while I'm on the list you don't :-) > > >>>>> DE15F to DE9F >>> THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! >> I asusme it's the PC/AT serial port wiring. Althought i thought that >> RS232C actually specified the DB25 conenctor. > > and I have NEVER seen a DE15 used for any kind of serial. > > Considering that these cables probably came from an LCD projector, it is > PROBABLY a monitor adapter of some sort. > Somebody clueless may have looked at the DE9 and automatically labelled it > as "RS232" (as a misuse, meaning serial) My assumption, actually, is that it's a custom peripheral adaptor for the projector. The presence of ADB and PS/2 ports would make me guess that it's so you can attach a mouse (some projectors used it for their config screens, others let you control the host machine's cursor through the remote, which would indicate the other direction). The DE9 is probably for a serial mouse (which I recall being pretty popular before PS/2 was ubiquitous). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 1 14:40:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 12:40:09 -0800 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> References: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50BA6B29.3060602@sydex.com> On 12/01/2012 12:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/01/2012 01:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> If you answered yes: >> >> http://rs232club.org/ >> >> Join the other 5 members in talking about the classic serial protocol! > > SIX members! I hadn't realized that RS232 was a "protocol", just a set of signal, level and connector specifications. So how many of the six members are using STR protocol over RS232? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 1 14:29:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 20:29:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 30, 12 02:17:06 pm Message-ID: > > Moulded cables are not useful for modificaiton, the only use is if you > > have the evece they work with. > > cutting up molded cables and splicing cable is sometimes easier than > trying to work with Mini-DIN plugs! Iwould agree with that, but often these moutled cables nturn out not to have ll pins wired, abd Murphey's lawa implies one pin you want will not have a wire conencted to it :-) At one time (amybe still) you could buy mini-DIN to open-end cables (I think at least 4, 6 ,8 pin ones) from RS componnets over here. Whe n Iwas makign up the serial (RS23 2nd disk drive)( cables form my PX8, I bought a few. Much easier to wire the ends of those to DIN and D connectors than work iwth the bare mini-DIN plugs. > > And these days, it is getting hard to find any non-molded mains plugs. Over here there's ridiculous law that says that all mains-powered stuff must come with a fitted plug (I can't rememebr if it has to be a 13A BS1363 plug,but prctically it always is). This means most things come with moulded plugs. COmplete wit inadequate cable strain releif, un-inspectable connetions nad other horrors. Which means I normally cut off said plug and fit a re-wirable one. Such plugs are therefore not as common as theu once were, but they're not difficult to obtain. > As for the power cables, I have forgotten Most IEC cables onver here are moutded at both ends, but rewirable IEC scokets (adnd plugs) are easily avaialble if you want them. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 14:53:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <21B4D620-684B-4512-8080-7BA11354E691@gmail.com> References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> <21B4D620-684B-4512-8080-7BA11354E691@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121201124234.N16239@shell.lmi.net> > >>>>> DE15F to DE9F > >>> THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! > > Considering that these cables probably came from an LCD projector, it is > > PROBABLY a monitor adapter of some sort. On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, David Riley wrote: > My assumption, actually, is that it's a custom peripheral > adaptor for the projector. The presence of ADB and PS/2 > ports would make me guess that it's so you can attach a > mouse (some projectors used it for their config screens, > others let you control the host machine's cursor through > the remote, which would indicate the other direction). > The DE9 is probably for a serial mouse (which I recall > being pretty popular before PS/2 was ubiquitous). Serial mice normally mated to a DE9M! (suitable for connecting the projector to serial of host computer for control of host computer, not for attaching mouse to projector) But the ORIGINAL Microsoft "Bus Mouse" (green-eyed mouse with it's own ISA card) mated to a DE9F on the mouse card. That, of course, resulted in people plugging the mouse into CGA and MDA and plugging the monitor into the mouse card. (YES, college employees did that A LOT) Because of the potential for hardware damage, the "bus mouse" switched to a mini-DIN connector, and the mice that mate with DE9F are R at RE, and long gone before this device. But, we are opining over something inconsequential. Pay postage, and YOU CAN HAVE IT! (It is a molded (not moldy) cable, so pinout changes for any other use are inconvenient.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 15:09:36 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 16:09:36 -0500 Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > The GRiD Compass used a DE15 for its serial connector, IIRC (not sure if > other early GRiD machines did). CDC used DE15 for RS-232, coming out of the DI boxes (the late-era standard front end comm boxes to Cybers). -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 15:51:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 13:51:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: RS232 &Current loop? crap (NOT FPUIB) In-Reply-To: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> References: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121201131054.F16239@shell.lmi.net> > SIX members! But, is anybody fanatic enough to want to BUY an Atlantic Research Corporation Data Tek 9600? (sorry, this one is NOT free, but I'll offer it here before eBay) (either bids, or sensible sugestions of what I should ask for it) (no pictures YET; prob'ly later this week) Blue lunchbox 12" X 8" X 5" with detachable lid. Underside of lid has "DATA TEK 9600 OPERATING INSTRUCTION" 120V 60Hz mains power attached molded cord Model label says "Teleproduct\nAtlantic Research Corp Model DTS-1-4-M519? Serial C1065 SOME of the controls have lines going to other controls, making it a little easier to follow sequence/hierarchy of controls 2 DB25 ("Terminal","Modem"), 3 pole switch (DTR,THRU,CTS) 24 pole dip switch with jumper wires, 3 pole switch (monitor terminal,Gen,monitor modem), power switch, "Loop In" 1/4" phone jack, "20/60/polar" switch, "Tip +/-" switch, "-/MK/+ EIA/MIL" switch, 16pin dip socket ("IN/OUT" LEDs with arrow pointing to one pin of socket "Aux+ - 3V", pins of socket labelled +12v,-12V,VM+/-,reset,step,ISOC,TTL,EXT,IDLE,ERROR,CLOCK,TRAP,TTL,GND. LEDs labelled SIGS IN, 3 1/4" phone jacks, "Loop 20<->60" trimpot, "DRY/Tip-/+" switch "ANALYZER": Panel meter ("Percent distortion,Voltage,LoopmA"),BIAS switch SB/MBLEDs, "Trap Char" 8 pole dipswitch, b "bit" LEDs, "Trap char/Count PE/Displayu next char after trap" switch, "Reset(resync)" push button, "DATA FORMAT": "Code Level" rotary switch ("5 1.0/2.0/6 1.0/2.0/7 1.0/2.0/8 1.0/2.0"),"Parity OFF/ODD/EVEN" switch, "Bit rate" "LO/MED/HI" switch with 8 position rotary switch for 45.5 to 9.6K "GENERATOR" "MODE" rotary switch: "Baudot/EBCD/ASCII/TTS/REV/[511]/[2047]/4 char generator" (with 4 8 pole dipswitches) (Yes, you can set it to continuously output "hitS" until you get it), "force error" pushbutton with "step SP/MK/CONT"switch "DISTORTION MB/SB/SWB" switch, 8 position "%" rotary switch ("0" to "4.4") IS THERE a more comprehensive portable analyzer? (other than a modified Compaq lunchbox computer) From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 16:34:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:34:16 -0500 Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121201124234.N16239@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> <21B4D620-684B-4512-8080-7BA11354E691@gmail.com> <20121201124234.N16239@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>>> DE15F to DE9F >>>>> THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! >>> Considering that these cables probably came from an LCD projector, it is >>> PROBABLY a monitor adapter of some sort. > > On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, David Riley wrote: >> My assumption, actually, is that it's a custom peripheral >> adaptor for the projector. The presence of ADB and PS/2 >> ports would make me guess that it's so you can attach a >> mouse (some projectors used it for their config screens, >> others let you control the host machine's cursor through >> the remote, which would indicate the other direction). >> The DE9 is probably for a serial mouse (which I recall >> being pretty popular before PS/2 was ubiquitous). > > Serial mice normally mated to a DE9M! > (suitable for connecting the projector to serial of host computer > for control of host computer, not for attaching mouse to projector) Which would bolster the second possibility, that it's meant for controlling the host rather than the projector. > But, we are opining over something inconsequential. > Pay postage, and YOU CAN HAVE IT! I appreciate the offer, but I have overflowing cable bins and even less use for that one than many of the other esoteric cables I have in the bins. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 16:58:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 14:58:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: <50BA6B29.3060602@sydex.com> References: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> <50BA6B29.3060602@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121201145746.C16239@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I hadn't realized that RS232 was a "protocol", just a set of signal, > level and connector specifications. soon to become a cult? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 17:00:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 15:00:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: References: <20121130140737.S87895@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121201145929.O16239@shell.lmi.net> > > The GRiD Compass used a DE15 for its serial connector, IIRC (not sure if > > other early GRiD machines did). > CDC used DE15 for RS-232, coming out of the DI boxes (the late-era > standard front end comm boxes to Cybers). I apologize for my ignorance From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 1 17:28:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 15:28:44 -0800 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: <20121201145746.C16239@shell.lmi.net> References: <50BA6336.6030003@neurotica.com> <50BA6B29.3060602@sydex.com> <20121201145746.C16239@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50BA92AC.3040702@sydex.com> On 12/01/2012 02:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I hadn't realized that RS232 was a "protocol", just a set of signal, >> level and connector specifications. > > soon to become a cult? Perhaps, but quite likely only in the 9-line IBM asynchronous variant. Bell 209 modems will be but a faint memory, lost in the mists of time. --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Dec 1 19:23:09 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:23:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 bits available Message-ID: <201212020123.qB21N9OZ020264@hugin2.pdp8online.com> I got this email and I'm not close enough to pick up so forwarding to this list. Reply to John Murray jh.murray @ comcast . net, not me or list --- Unknown condition, but the stuff was operational 20 years ago. Already gave some stuff away, but missed this stuff. Been in my garage: M8317 M8350 M623 ribbon cables power controllers Reside in Denver area. First come, first served. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 1 22:31:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:31:07 -0800 Subject: part number of National Semiconductor IC or data sheet In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com>, , , , <50B425E7.2030002@compsys.to>, , <50B4286F.2080708@gmail.com> , <50B70721.90300@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50BAD98B.6020802@sydex.com> On 11/30/2012 10:42 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > No, I'm looking for a chip that would run reset andbattery voltage > for static RAM.I'm trying to repair battery damage done on the power > unit boardof my MA2000 modules. It was mounted as a black epoxy > covereddie so no part number. Still it was likely a NS standard > partor else how would they get the naked die to mount. Atleast that > is what I'm thinking although it may have beena Maxim part bought as > a naked die.Dwight Do you mean something like a Benchmarq BQ2204 (now a TI property, used to be part of Unitrode)? --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 00:13:15 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 22:13:15 -0800 Subject: FYI: NEC PC-8500 available in Bellingham, WA Message-ID: <50BAF17B.4040408@gmail.com> Just in case anyone's interested -- there's a complete (in-box) NEC PC-8500 setup for sale at Aladdin's Antiques in Bellingham, WA.It's in the area behind the front desknear an Amiga 2000:). This is a 64K Z80 system in clamshell laptop form-factor, running CP/M from ROM. 80x25character LCD display, runs off of 4x"C" batteries. The unit for sale includes the basic system, PC-8441A-K CRT/Floppy Interface, and PC-8431A Floppy Drive. There weretwo complete sets, but I bought one of them :). Works great so far. They were asking $85 for the complete set, but I talked them down a bit. - Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 2 01:42:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 00:42:18 -0700 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BB065A.90408@brouhaha.com> Liam Proven wrote: > If you answered yes: > > http://rs232club.org/ I still somewhat frequently use an instance of the item shown on the front page. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Dec 2 02:39:33 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:39:33 +1300 Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube Message-ID: Remember the Model 1? I'm just letting the list members know I put a YouTube video up covering this classic This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these videos. I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want to be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some may be interested. Just subscribe to my YouTube channel if you want to be alerted to subsequent videos. Cheers Terry (Tez) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 03:21:14 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 07:21:14 -0200 Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube References: Message-ID: > This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these > videos. > I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want to > be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some may be > interested. I just can't see why :oP From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 04:43:10 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:43:10 -0200 Subject: Do you like RS232? References: Message-ID: I still cannot believe I watched this... ;oO And the cable in the video is a parallel printer cable =) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: Do you like RS232? > If you answered yes: > > http://rs232club.org/ > > Join the other 5 members in talking about the classic serial protocol! > > *Not* the club song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDlj0jBtYmQ > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 04:59:27 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:59:27 -0200 Subject: Broken A2000 keyboard request References: Message-ID: <8863292EE5D94FF1BBBBD4BB29227127@tababook> Dear friends, I think I asked for it before, I don't remember. So sorry if this is a repeated message :o) I got an A2000 which keyboard has no keys :( The original owner took off the keys for retrobrighting and lost them. Maybe someone with an A2000 keyboard **broken** wouldn't mind sharing the keys with me? :) I love my A2000 :) Thanks Alexandre PS: A SCSI interface / ram expansion for it would also be great...I love using that old puter =) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 08:30:15 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:30:15 +0000 Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 December 2012 10:43, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I still cannot believe I watched this... ;oO > > And the cable in the video is a parallel printer cable =) Ahahahaha! This might explain a little bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitting_image The club membership is up to 18 now, I see... 8?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Dec 2 12:04:37 2012 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 19:04:37 +0100 Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) Message-ID: <20121202180437.49450@gmx.net> > > > > > (DE15F to MiniDin-4 labelled "ADB") > > > > > DE15F to DE9F > > > THAT one is labelled "RS232C"!!! > > I asusme it's the PC/AT serial port wiring. Althought i thought that > > RS232C actually specified the DB25 conenctor. > > and I have NEVER seen a DE15 used for any kind of serial. > > Considering that these cables probably came from an LCD projector, it is > PROBABLY a monitor adapter of some sort. Somebody clueless may have > looked at the DE9 and automatically labelled it as "RS232" (as a misuse, > meaning serial) Err, not necessarily. I'm rather thinking that the corresponding LCD projector ("beamer") might have included or at least supported a "presenter", i.e. a wireless, handheld mini-trackball or hat-switch type pointing device, whose signals are relayed to the host system via the respective pointing device interface. As only one of these interfaces is needed at a given time (ADB when connected to a Mac, either RS232 or PS/2 for a legacy PC, or USB for a modern one), it kind of makes sense to bring these out in a single connector (in this case, the DE15) and include the different adapter cables for connecting it to the host system. I got a similar set of cables some years ago, these had a not-quite-MiniDIN connector at the projector end and either DE9, MiniDIN-6 or USB on the other. They were factory labelled as belonging to an ASK C105. If so, very usefor for somebody having the corresponding projector, not so much for anyone else. Hope this helps - so long, Arno Kletzander From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:31:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 11:31:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Esoteric crap (11/28/12) In-Reply-To: <20121202180437.49450@gmx.net> References: <20121202180437.49450@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20121202112908.M50040@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Dec 2012, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Err, not necessarily. I'm rather thinking that the corresponding LCD > projector ("beamer") might have included or at least supported a > "presenter", i.e. a wireless, handheld mini-trackball or hat-switch type > pointing device, whose signals are relayed to the host system via the > respective pointing device interface. > As only one of these interfaces is needed at a given time (ADB when > connected to a Mac, either RS232 or PS/2 for a legacy PC, or USB for a > modern one), it kind of makes sense to bring these out in a single > connector (in this case, the DE15) and include the different adapter > cables for connecting it to the host system. > . . . > Hope this helps - so long, It certainly does. Oh, well. landfill. unless somebody wants a bunch of half-length cables with each of those connectors to bare wires. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 14:57:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 20:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RS232 &Current loop? crap (NOT FPUIB) In-Reply-To: <20121201131054.F16239@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 1, 12 01:51:47 pm Message-ID: [Description of ratehr intersting instrument] > IS THERE a more comprehensive portable analyzer? (other than a modified > Compaq lunchbox computer) > Hmmm... It seems to me that this is a low-level analyser, looking at distortion (unequal lengths of marks/spaces) and things like that. It doesn't seem to be able to grab the data as characters and display them later. Somewhere I ahve a battery-powered breakout box that will do some of waht that can do, inclduing send test messages, display distortion, etc. My Trend 1/4 is probanly a better distordion meter. Bot of those are RS232 only, yours seems to do current loop too. Then there's my TDMS5, a wonder valved (but jsut about portable) device to send test signals with controlable distortion and display it distortion of the incoming signal. At a higher level (character rather than signals), I use a 'Black Box' unit I was given recently. It's a Z180-absed thing with a Z8530 serial chip. YEs, it handles synchronous as well as async data, EBCDIC as well as SCII (and baudot, but for some insane reason the slwoest baud rate is 75 :-(). If that;s not enough, I have a Ferret. That thing is portable (attache-case style) and incorporates a breakout box, RS232, curent loop and paralell interfaces, a hex keypad, a strip printer, a cassette interface (!) and an EPROM programemr (!!). You can do all sort of things with that, includign RS232 to current lop conversion with different abud rates o ntejh 2 interfces, capture an print data on a serial line, send test messages, program EPROMs. writye and run Z80 programs, etc, etc, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 15:13:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:13:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: <50BA92AC.3040702@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 1, 12 03:28:44 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/01/2012 02:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I hadn't realized that RS232 was a "protocol", just a set of signal, > >> level and connector specifications. > > > > soon to become a cult? > > Perhaps, but quite likely only in the 9-line IBM asynchronous variant. > Bell 209 modems will be but a faint memory, lost in the mists of time. Not RS232, but clearly related, I am _still_ trying to find any technical information on the ACU (Automatic Calling Unit) used in the early 1970s which ahd, I believe, an RS366 interface. No, I don;t ahev the unit, if I did, I suspect it would all be very obvious... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 15:16:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:16:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 2, 12 07:21:14 am Message-ID: > > > This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these > > videos. > > I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want to > > be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some may be > > interested. > > I just can't see why :oP Nor do I. I've not looked at hte videos in question, but it would appear from the description that they relate t oa classic computer and are thus on-topic here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 15:21:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:21:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Do you like RS232? In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 2, 12 08:43:10 am Message-ID: > And the cable in the video is a parallel printer cable =) OK, which clssic computer prodiuct used a 36 pin Microribbon connector to carry RS232 (and RS366) signals? > > *Not* the club song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDlj0jBtYmQ I am goign to guess (without watching it)_ that is is a clip from the UK television programme 'Spitting Image' from aobut 25 years ago. I was at universtiy when that was firt boradcst, and hat a repution for being a 'geek' or whatever. Another student made some crack about wanting an 'RS232 Interface Lead' at which point I pulled one out of my pocket. The reaction from the otehr hackers present was priceless... -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 09:29:44 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:29:44 -0500 Subject: System Console from PDP-10 KA10 System Number 105. Message-ID: The System Console from the DEC PDP-10 KA-10 System #105 at BOCES-LIRICS was recently donated to the RICM. We are considering mounting a System-on-a-Chip to the back of the console and making it a "live" PDP-10. For more information on the console see: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/interesting_computer_items/dec-pdp-ka10 -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 09:46:30 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:46:30 -0500 Subject: Need help with installing PDP-8 4k Disk Monitor Message-ID: For some reason the misbehaving TC01 controller on the PDP-8/I at the RICM decide work yesterday. Possibly due to the low temperature in the RICM warehouse. We took advantage of the situation and formatted and tested five DECtapes. Following the procedure in Appendix-A of the 4k Disk System Monitor System Disk System manual, we ran the DEC-D8-SBAF-PB 4k Disk System Monitor System Disk System Builder. We told it that the 8/I system does not have any disks or a high-speed paper tape reader. The System Builder wrote the Monitor, Loader, Command Decoder, Directory, and Storage Allocation Block Maps to the DECtape. We were able to enter the DECtape bootstrap program and boot the 4k monitor. The next installation step is to add programs to the DECtape. We continued with the procedure in Appendix-A.4. When the console displayed an ^ we entered a CTRL-P and then told the terminal emulator to send DEC-D8-PDAD-PB Disk System PIP-DF32 tape image. After sending about 1,500 characters the 8/I started echoing the characters from the tape image on the console and the command processor tried to use the input as commands. Somehow, after receiving 1,500 characters the 4k monitor switched from paper tape input mode to command mode. I am not sure if this configuration can be duplicated on one of the emulators. If someone could try the monitor installation and subsequent loading of programs from a real "Teletype" it would be interesting to see if it works. If it does work, then maybe we need to add the reader control circuitry to the 20mA/RS-232 converter that we are using to connect a PC to the PDP-8/I. Any advice would be appreciated. -- Michael Thompson From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sun Dec 2 15:55:50 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:55:50 +0000 Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 December 2012 09:21, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these >> videos. >> I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want to >> be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some may be >> interested. > > > I just can't see why :oP Yeah. That's what this list is for. Keep telling us. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 2 16:03:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 17:03:49 -0500 Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BBD045.9030503@neurotica.com> On 12/02/2012 04:55 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >>> This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these >>> videos. >>> I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want to >>> be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some may be >>> interested. >> >> >> I just can't see why :oP > > Yeah. That's what this list is for. Keep telling us. +1 I enjoy these videos very much. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Dec 2 16:05:01 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 17:05:01 -0500 Subject: System Console from PDP-10 KA10 System Number 105. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BBD08D.3020408@verizon.net> On 12/02/2012 10:29 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The System Console from the DEC PDP-10 KA-10 System #105 at > BOCES-LIRICS was recently donated to the RICM. > We are considering mounting a System-on-a-Chip to the back of the > console and making it a "live" PDP-10. > > For more information on the console see: > https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/interesting_computer_items/dec-pdp-ka10 > Interesting.. I personally spent a fair amount of time in front of that console when it was in Dix Hills which is actually Suffolk county LI. It was in the same building I was taking classes in along with two Honeywell systems. That would be around 1971ish. Sweet machine we had maybe 300 users (terminals) all on dial in lines from both Nassau and Suffolk counties (about 70% of the LI landmass). Wonder what happened of Jerry Damm and a few others around then. Allison From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 16:25:01 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 17:25:01 -0500 Subject: System Console from PDP-10 KA10 System Number 105. In-Reply-To: <50BBD08D.3020408@verizon.net> References: <50BBD08D.3020408@verizon.net> Message-ID: Oh. That brings back memories. I used BOCES-NCODE in high school. Good luck with the system-on-a-chip mod On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 5:05 PM, allison wrote: > On 12/02/2012 10:29 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> The System Console from the DEC PDP-10 KA-10 System #105 at >> BOCES-LIRICS was recently donated to the RICM. >> We are considering mounting a System-on-a-Chip to the back of the >> console and making it a "live" PDP-10. >> >> For more information on the console see: >> https://sites.google.com/a/**ricomputermuseum.org/home/** >> Home/interesting_computer_**items/dec-pdp-ka10 >> >> Interesting.. > > I personally spent a fair amount of time in front of that console when it > was in Dix Hills which > is actually Suffolk county LI. It was in the same building I was taking > classes in along with > two Honeywell systems. That would be around 1971ish. Sweet machine we > had maybe > 300 users (terminals) all on dial in lines from both Nassau and Suffolk > counties > (about 70% of the LI landmass). > > Wonder what happened of Jerry Damm and a few others around then. > > > Allison > > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Dec 2 16:36:51 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 11:36:51 +1300 Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50BBD045.9030503@neurotica.com> References: <50BBD045.9030503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>>> This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these >>>> videos. >>>> I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want to >>>> be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some may be >>>> interested. >>> >>> >>> I just can't see why :oP >> >> Yeah. That's what this list is for. Keep telling us. >+1 > I enjoy these videos very much. Thanks for the support guys. I also received a couple of letters privately saying there would be no problems if I kept posting notices when I complete one of these videos. Given that, if no one objects I'll continue to let people know via the list. (-: I intend to gradually work through my classic computers collection. It won't be a fast process and I imagine I'll only be able to manage one every three weeks or so on average. It should take me a few years! (-: The next one will be on the Atari 400. Terry (Tez) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 16:40:56 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:40:56 -0600 Subject: TRS-Model 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50BBD045.9030503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: keep it up worth documenting them On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >>>> This is the last notice I'll post on classicmmp.org regarding these > >>>> videos. > >>>> I intend to gradually cover all the machines I've got and I don't want > to > >>>> be accused of spam by using the list to notify people, even if some > may be > >>>> interested. > >>> > >>> > >>> I just can't see why :oP > >> > >> Yeah. That's what this list is for. Keep telling us. > > >+1 > > I enjoy these videos very much. > > Thanks for the support guys. I also received a couple of letters privately > saying there would be no problems if I kept posting notices when I complete > one of these videos. > > Given that, if no one objects I'll continue to let people know via the > list. (-: > > I intend to gradually work through my classic computers collection. It > won't be a fast process and I imagine I'll only be able to manage one every > three weeks or so on average. It should take me a few years! (-: > > The next one will be on the Atari 400. > > Terry (Tez) > From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Dec 2 16:43:59 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 23:43:59 +0100 Subject: System Console from PDP-10 KA10 System Number 105. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BBD9AF.8070600@update.uu.se> On 12/02/2012 04:29 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The System Console from the DEC PDP-10 KA-10 System #105 at > BOCES-LIRICS was recently donated to the RICM. > We are considering mounting a System-on-a-Chip to the back of the > console and making it a "live" PDP-10. > > For more information on the console see: > https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/interesting_computer_items/dec-pdp-ka10 > Very nice. It is smaller than I have imagined. Bruce Maier is excellent for scale :) /P From slandon110 at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 17:13:19 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 18:13:19 -0500 Subject: Lots and Lots of Macs Message-ID: <50BBE08F.7080304@gmail.com> Im still doing the big warehouse cleanout. I have lots of everything I have the following PowerMacs and 68k Macs, and Apple IIGS Monitors and Monitor IIs Multiples of each IIGS Monitors are 25 dollars each Monitor //s are $25 each. PowerMacs all have RAM and SCSI HDDs, Priced to sell at $40 each 7300/200 7600/132 7500/180 Beige G3 MT 333mhz 6100/66 6100/60 8100/80 8100/110 7100/66av 7100/80 9500/200 9600/200 8500/200 68K Macs all $40 each IICI- Lots of em IISI- Lots of em IICX- Lots of em Quadra 650 4 of em Centris 610 Centris 650 LC II's, LC IIIs Keyboards, Mice you name it I have it. I still have about 48 skids of stuff to pick up and sort through Thanks Steve From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 19:13:18 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 17:13:18 -0800 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> If you haven't heard of Reddit.com you probably should have. It's a user generated social media site with categories for just about any crazy thing you can imagine and lots of things nobody should ever imagine. Anyway they have a vintage computer "subreddit" http://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/ that looks like it could use a lot more activity and content. If you are looking to teach the young kids a thing or two about computing history might be a good place to show off your collection or share your knowledge. They seem to be impressed by just about anything older than 5 years. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 19:50:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 20:50:18 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks Message-ID: I have a bootable 100MB RSX-11M image in SIMH that I'd like to blast onto a Zip disk and boot through my CQD-220. I'm running a build on SIMH that's essentially identical to my machine, so it should be straightforward, but when I try to boot my disk, I get a "not bootable" response from the ROM (the activity light on the Zip drive does flash momentarily, so I know something is going on, but it doesn't look like it's taking enough time to actually seek anything (and when I boot through the bootstrap provided by the CQD-220 ROM, I get a HALT at 000002, which tells me it's probably getting all zeroes). I know at least some of you boot your -11s off of Zip disks, probably with similar cards. What am I missing? As far as I can tell, the SIMH disk image format is a headerless binary blob, but it doesn't look like I'm getting to the point where that even matters yet. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 2 20:05:00 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 18:05:00 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is actually the first I've heard of anyone trying to use a Zip Disk for a PDP-11. I think Jerome Fine uses MO disks. I have SCSI drive trays (like you used to see in PC's) for my PDP-11's, and just slide in the right hard drives. I'm using a Viking QDT SCSI Adapter though. I also have a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drive in my /73 (one of the old ones that uses Caddies). I've successfully burned SIMH images to CD-R and booted them on my /73. Zane At 8:50 PM -0500 12/2/12, David Riley wrote: >I have a bootable 100MB RSX-11M image in SIMH >that I'd like to blast onto a Zip disk and boot through my >CQD-220. I'm running a build on SIMH that's essentially >identical to my machine, so it should be straightforward, >but when I try to boot my disk, I get a "not bootable" >response from the ROM (the activity light on the Zip >drive does flash momentarily, so I know something is >going on, but it doesn't look like it's taking enough time >to actually seek anything (and when I boot through the >bootstrap provided by the CQD-220 ROM, I get a HALT >at 000002, which tells me it's probably getting all zeroes). > >I know at least some of you boot your -11s off of Zip disks, >probably with similar cards. What am I missing? As far >as I can tell, the SIMH disk image format is a headerless >binary blob, but it doesn't look like I'm getting to the point >where that even matters yet. > >- Dave -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 2 20:54:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 19:54:11 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > This is actually the first I've heard of anyone trying to use a Zip > Disk for a PDP-11. I've pretty much *only* used ZIP disks on my various 11s (Unibus and Qbus) for more than ten years. At this point they're much more reliable than the legacy drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 2 21:00:48 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 20:00:48 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > I have a bootable 100MB RSX-11M image in SIMH > that I'd like to blast onto a Zip disk and boot through my > CQD-220. I'm running a build on SIMH that's essentially > identical to my machine, so it should be straightforward, > but when I try to boot my disk, I get a "not bootable" > response from the ROM (the activity light on the Zip > drive does flash momentarily, so I know something is > going on, but it doesn't look like it's taking enough time > to actually seek anything (and when I boot through the > bootstrap provided by the CQD-220 ROM, I get a HALT > at 000002, which tells me it's probably getting all zeroes). How are you transferring the image to the ZIP? With Linux, I can dd an image created with E11 to the ZIP, and it boots fine with a CQD. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 21:19:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:19:44 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <220D542C-19B5-4021-A26E-A5473AC3D009@gmail.com> On Dec 2, 2012, at 10:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> I have a bootable 100MB RSX-11M image in SIMH >> that I'd like to blast onto a Zip disk and boot through my >> CQD-220. I'm running a build on SIMH that's essentially >> identical to my machine, so it should be straightforward, >> but when I try to boot my disk, I get a "not bootable" >> response from the ROM (the activity light on the Zip >> drive does flash momentarily, so I know something is >> going on, but it doesn't look like it's taking enough time >> to actually seek anything (and when I boot through the >> bootstrap provided by the CQD-220 ROM, I get a HALT >> at 000002, which tells me it's probably getting all zeroes). > > How are you transferring the image to the ZIP? With Linux, I can dd an image created with E11 to the ZIP, and it boots fine with a CQD. I'm just dd'ing it as well. No problems reported, the image is slightly smaller than the disk itself (which I wouldn't expect to be a problem), and all that. It's an image with which I can do a "boot rq0" from SIMH and it starts up with no problem, but when I do the CQD's bootstrap (which looks like it just reads the first block to address 0 and goes with it), I can verify that I get 512 bytes of zeroes, which isn't what's on the first block of the disk. It's bedtime here, but in the morning I'll hook up the serial port and make sure I haven't done anything funky with the CQD's partitioning setup. If there's anything else to check up on, I'd be glad to hear about it. This is the first time I've gotten around to trying to boot anything off the CQD since I fixed the firmware bug last year, so I'm working a bit blind. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 2 21:32:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 19:32:28 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 7:54 PM -0700 12/2/12, Eric Smith wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>This is actually the first I've heard of anyone trying to use a Zip >>Disk for a PDP-11. > >I've pretty much *only* used ZIP disks on my various 11s (Unibus and >Qbus) for more than ten years. At this point they're much more >reliable than the legacy drives. Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they scare the **** out of me. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 21:47:11 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:47:11 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> On Dec 2, 2012, at 22:00, Eric Smith wrote: > How are you transferring the image to the ZIP? With Linux, I can dd an image created with E11 to the ZIP, and it boots fine with a CQD. *sigh* This was a PEBKAC problem. Turns out Linux had a different idea of what /dev/sdb was than I did; I realized something was amiss when I was getting 12 MB/s transfer rates (absurdly high for a Zip 100). Seems Linux will happily accept data when you don't have a disk in the drive (which I didn't realize somehow). Anyway, now that I've written my image to something other than the bit bucket, I have RSX booting happily from the Zip disk. Sorry for the noise; next time I'll try sleeping on the problem first. :-) - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 2 21:53:43 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 20:53:43 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/2/2012 8:47 PM, David Riley wrote: > Anyway, now that I've written my image to something other > than the bit bucket, I have RSX booting happily from the > Zip disk. Sorry for the noise; next time I'll try sleeping on > the problem first. :-) Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they came out with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, Mac and some sort of internal card. > > - Dave > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 21:54:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:54:16 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2871C72C-D4BE-4937-A93C-AA5C64EEB473@gmail.com> On Dec 2, 2012, at 22:32, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 7:54 PM -0700 12/2/12, Eric Smith wrote: >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> This is actually the first I've heard of anyone trying to use a Zip Disk for a PDP-11. >> >> I've pretty much *only* used ZIP disks on my various 11s (Unibus and Qbus) for more than ten years. At this point they're much more reliable than the legacy drives. > > Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they scare the **** out of me. I've used them since they first came out and have never experienced the CoD. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the later (i.e., 250 and up) drives and/or disks suffered from either engineering shortcomings or a total lack of QA. I've never used anything other than the 100s, largely because those were all the SCSI ones I ever had and I primarily used them on Macs (somehow I have an ATA internal one and a SCSI external one as well; I don't recall hearing good things about the USB ones, even the early ones). That said, I don't usually put anything important on them anymore, because why risk it? But almost all of my spare SCSI hard drives have died at this point, and I just bought 18 disks at a yard sale for a dollar, so this is my best bet for hobbyist stuff at the moment. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 2 22:00:41 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 21:00:41 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <220D542C-19B5-4021-A26E-A5473AC3D009@gmail.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <220D542C-19B5-4021-A26E-A5473AC3D009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BC23E9.6010603@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > I'm just dd'ing it as well. And you're dding to something like /dev/sdb? *Not* /dev/sdb1? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 2 22:01:35 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 21:01:35 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they > scare the **** out of me. I think I bought all of my ZIP drives and media after that problem was resolved. I've used them heavily, and never had a problem. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 22:08:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 23:08:48 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5222BA4D-784D-47F8-9BF5-A784C86EDDF3@gmail.com> On Dec 2, 2012, at 22:53, ben wrote: > Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they > came out with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, > Mac and some sort of internal card. Sure, it's actually pretty simple (getting there may not be, though). I have a CMD CQD-220 QBUS SCSI card that acts as an MSCP host. I have an external SCSI Zip drive attached and mapped as DU0: in the CQD-220 firmware (the card emulates a separate DUn: for each SCSI ID or partition thereof). On the Linux side, it's just an internal ATA Zip 100 drive, nothing special there. The real pain is probably finding a SCSI card these days. I got super-lucky a few years ago and landed this one on eBay for a good price (from another list member, as it turned out, though I wasn't on the list then). If you're looking on eBay, expect to pay upwards of $200 if you can find one. SCSI Zip 100s are somewhat easier to find and will probably run anywhere between $50 and $100 (or, of course, less if you're lucky). Zip 100s came in parallel (external), SCSI (internal and external), ATA (internal), and later USB. I have one of the big boxy early USB models floating around somewhere, but I don't hear great things about their reliability; the ones with lots of verifiable problems are the later "slim" models which (IIRC) came about with the 250 MB disks. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 2 22:10:48 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 21:10:48 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50BC2648.10706@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they > came out with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, > Mac and some sort of internal card. "Bare" 100 MB ZIP drives were available in three variants, IDE (rare), ATAPI (attaches to IDE port, common), and SCSI. External were available in parallel, SCSI, "Plus" (could connect to either parallel or SCSI), or USB. I've used both the internal and external SCSI ZIP drives on the PDP-11. The external has the disadvantage that it only has two choices for ID. The ZIP 250 was available for SCSI, but I haven't tried it. The ZIP 750 was not offered in a SCSI version. I strongly recommend against the Iomega Jaz drive; the media seems to develop a lot of bad spots over a period of months. And the Syquest SyJet, Sparq, and Quest were even worse; my employer at the time chose them against my advice, and they rarely lasted more than a week. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 22:12:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 23:12:34 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC23E9.6010603@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <220D542C-19B5-4021-A26E-A5473AC3D009@gmail.com> <50BC23E9.6010603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2012, at 23:00, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> I'm just dd'ing it as well. > > And you're dding to something like /dev/sdb? *Not* /dev/sdb1? An IBM partition map wouldn't do me much good on a PDP-11, now, would it? :-) See my other email; turns out I was writing without a disk inserted and Linux's block layer was happily throwing away my data at 12.5 MB/s. Not sure what I verified my first block against that made me think the data was written correctly, but my daughter woke us up every two hours last night, so my cognitive facilities aren't running at 100% right now. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 22:18:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 20:18:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20121202201809.F60083@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Dec 2012, ben wrote: > Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they > came out with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, > Mac and some sort of internal card. also SCSI, IDE? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 3 00:05:04 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:05:04 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <2871C72C-D4BE-4937-A93C-AA5C64EEB473@gmail.com> References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> <2871C72C-D4BE-4937-A93C-AA5C64EEB473@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:54 PM -0500 12/2/12, David Riley wrote: >On Dec 2, 2012, at 22:32, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', >they scare the **** out of me. > >I've used them since they first came out and have never >experienced the CoD. Anecdotal evidence suggests >that the later (i.e., 250 and up) drives and/or disks suffered >from either engineering shortcomings or a total lack of QA. >I've never used anything other than the 100s, largely because >those were all the SCSI ones I ever had and I primarily used >them on Macs (somehow I have an ATA internal one >and a SCSI external one as well; I don't recall hearing >good things about the USB ones, even the early ones). I had one of the very first SCSI ones for my PowerBook 520c. It was great while it lasted. IIRC, my G4/450 AGP came with one built in, I never used it, except to recover some data. OTOH, I rather liked the Syquest drives I've had. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 3 00:06:33 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:06:33 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC2648.10706@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <50BC2648.10706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 9:10 PM -0700 12/2/12, Eric Smith wrote: >I strongly recommend against the Iomega Jaz drive; the media seems >to develop a lot of bad spots over a period of months. And the >Syquest SyJet, Sparq, and Quest were even worse; my employer at the >time chose them against my advice, and they rarely lasted more than >a week. I actually had pretty good luck with my Syquest SyJet drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 3 01:19:44 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 00:19:44 -0700 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <50BC2648.10706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50BC5290.1010508@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I actually had pretty good luck with my Syquest SyJet drive. I was the third engineer hired at one of the first DVR companies. The one most people have NOT heard of, though we shipped our first product the same week as the more famous one, and IMNSHO ours was better in many ways. We had >99% failure rate on hundreds of the Syquest drives (mix of Syjet and Sparq). MTBF was somewhere under 2 weeks. Many failed on the first day of use. We had people returning failed drives to Fry's on a daily basis. I had recommended that we use the ATAPI ZIP drive as the boot device for software development, and an ordinary hard drive to store the MPEG files. The ZIP drive worked quite reliably, but wasn't big enough for the MPEG files. There was no reason that the MPEG files needed to be on removeable media, even during development. However, someone in management thought that it was a better idea to have a single removable media drive. That was arguably the second dumbest technical decision made during development, and it wasted hundreds of man hours. The dumbest was that the software developers wanted an Ethernet port for debug use, which didn't need to be stuffed for production. (This was well before the whole-house sharing idea was given serious consideration as a product feature.) The hardware engineer said that it would add an extra two days to the hardware schedule, so management killed it. The software developers said that having the Ethernet port would have shaved weeks off the software schedule, but apparently management didn't believe it. On the other hand, management insisted that the hardware engineer put a 1394 port in the product, while they didn't budget any time for software or even testing. The product shipped with the 1394 port, which actually never worked. Years later I saw Matt Blaze wearing a T-shirt with this company logo: http://blog.ontrac.com/Portals/53780/images/waste-management-logo.jpg He explained that the reason he wore the shirt was that the company name was a complete sentence. Really made me wish I'd had that shirt back when I'd worked at the DVR company. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 3 06:21:48 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 06:21:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <20121202201809.F60083@shell.lmi.net> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121202201809.F60083@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 2 Dec 2012, ben wrote: > >> Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they came out >> with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, Mac and some sort of >> internal card. > > also SCSI, > IDE? The "internal card" for Zip drives was a barebones Adaptec SCSI card for PC compatibles that had no BIOS or boot support. The earlier Zip drives shipped with an ISA card and some of the later drives had a PCI card. All the Jaz cartridge drives that I used that included an interface card all had a PCI card but apparently they had some with ISA cards as well. The later external USB Zip drives could also make use an optional Firewire/1394 interface module accessory. At one time I made heavy use of both the 100MB and 250MB Zip disks and 1GB and 2GB Jaz cartridges for disk image backups. I had only one failure of a 1GB Jaz cartridge and that was due to the metal tab on the shutter breaking. They were used in a relatively dust free environment though, which I'm sure had something to do with it. I do distinctly remember Jaz drives needing a BIOS update from a Windows 95 computer prior to use with a non-Windows OS in order to properly deal with Tagged Command Queuing. The drives themselves didn't support TCQ (or at least not properly) but the earlier BIOS versions would happily agree to use it, which of course caused all sorts of havoc with higher end SCSI cards. IIRC some drives also needed to be pre-configured with a Windows-only software utility to enable support for disconnect-reconnect (although now that I'm thinking about it, I may be thinking about a different drive). Here is an example of what these drives would do if the BIOS wasn't updated so that the drive would decline to use TCQ: http://groups.google.com/group/linux.dev.scsi/tree/browse_frm/month/1996-11/4d8089d48eb99475 From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Dec 3 06:56:39 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 06:56:39 -0600 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: Don't use reddit. Any site hosting child pornography and rape images for money doesn't deserve users. Google for "violentacerz" and "creepshots" to see what I am referring to. They try to justify this as "freedom of speech" and claim women have no right to complain about sexual exploitation of their image. They're a sick, sad, exploitative organization and should be avoided by any means. On Dec 2, 2012, at 7:13 PM, mc68010 wrote: > If you haven't heard of Reddit.com you probably should have. It's a user generated social media site with categories for just about any crazy thing you can imagine and lots of things nobody should ever imagine. Anyway they have a vintage computer "subreddit" http://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/ that looks like it could use a lot more activity and content. > > If you are looking to teach the young kids a thing or two about computing history might be a good place to show off your collection or share your knowledge. They seem to be impressed by just about anything older than 5 years. From earl at retrobits.com Sun Dec 2 22:13:07 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 20:13:07 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > > Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they > came out with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, > Mac and some sort of internal card. > > Seconded. Is this done with a SCSI Zip drive, and associated QBus or > Unibus SCSI adapter? > - Earl From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 07:12:50 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:12:50 +0100 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2012/12/3 Daniel Seagraves : > Don't use reddit. Any site hosting child pornography and rape images for money doesn't deserve users. Google for "violentacerz" and "creepshots" to see what I am referring to. They try to justify this as "freedom of speech" and claim women have no right to complain about sexual exploitation of their image. They're a sick, sad, exploitative organization and should be avoided by any means. 1. afaik, child porn is now banned on Reddit. 2. Subreddits are adminstered by other people than the website admins themselves - If you doesn't like lollipops, that doesn't mean that You doesn't go to a city that has a candy store on a central avenue, right? 3. No, not for money. You doesn'tpay to see them. Oh, adverts? THEY DOESN't COUNT, since the website admins are not responsible for what users create. If I were, let's say, to create a dubreddit r/YoungBlondesRapedViaSCSIByRockPokemonsOnWeed - it would be me who would take responsibility for it, and if anyone would ind t , and the subreddit would be banned, and removed - I WOULD TAKE THE CONSEQUENCES BECAUSE I DID IT. tl;dr catholics doesn't like gays, but that doesn't mean that christianity is evil. -- Ola Hughson From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 07:21:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 08:21:55 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <2825D0C4-AD3F-4D2E-BEF5-F9809B4860A8@gmail.com> <50BC2247.7070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> >> Can you give the details, of the Zip setup. I remember they >> came out with several Zip Disk interfaces, PC printer port, >> Mac and some sort of internal card. >> > Seconded. Is this done with a SCSI Zip drive, and associated QBus or > Unibus SCSI adapter? Yes; I could have sworn I said that in the original message. Have my subsequent clarifications been getting lost? I don't get "feedback" of the messages I send to the list (perhaps there's an option for that), so I have no way of knowing if they've been lost. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 07:31:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:31:18 +0000 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3 December 2012 12:56, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Don't use reddit. Any site hosting child pornography and rape images for money doesn't deserve users. Google for "violentacerz" and "creepshots" to see what I am referring to. They try to justify this as "freedom of speech" and claim women have no right to complain about sexual exploitation of their image. They're a sick, sad, exploitative organization and should be avoided by any means. This from someone too dumb to bottom-post. Anyway, almost everything you claim is wrong: * Reddit doesn't host images. It may host pointers but not images. * Even the seedy image fora were not for pr0n - non-nude pics of kids are not pr0n * It is not an organisation - it's a web forum, one that is uncensored * It's free - nothing is done for money You need to grow up, get a sense of proportion, learn how the Internet works & stop preaching. Secondarily, a lesson for you: censorship is a bad thing, however noble the intentions. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From chrise at pobox.com Mon Dec 3 07:39:52 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 07:39:52 -0600 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20121203133952.GB7431@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (12/02/2012 at 08:00PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: > >I have a bootable 100MB RSX-11M image in SIMH > >that I'd like to blast onto a Zip disk and boot through my > >CQD-220. I'm running a build on SIMH that's essentially > >identical to my machine, so it should be straightforward, > >but when I try to boot my disk, I get a "not bootable" > >response from the ROM (the activity light on the Zip > >drive does flash momentarily, so I know something is > >going on, but it doesn't look like it's taking enough time > >to actually seek anything (and when I boot through the > >bootstrap provided by the CQD-220 ROM, I get a HALT > >at 000002, which tells me it's probably getting all zeroes). > > How are you transferring the image to the ZIP? With Linux, I can dd > an image created with E11 to the ZIP, and it boots fine with a CQD. I can second that. Trivial bit image copy with 'dd'. Of course you dd it to the raw device, /dev/sdb, /dev/sdc, etc. not one of the partitions (ie, not /dev/sdb1, /dev/sdb2, etc). I've got an ATAPI ZIP drive in a Linux box for making the copies and then a pair of SCSI ZIP on the CQD controller in my 11/34. Works great. I have also booted XXDP from CDROM attached to this CQD controller but that is a really, really slow solution. -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Mon Dec 3 07:42:34 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 07:42:34 -0600 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20121203134234.GC7431@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (12/02/2012 at 07:32PM -0800), Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they > scare the **** out of me. Clicks of death or rather, deafening screeches, from RL02 are MORE scarey :-) -- Chris Elmquist From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Dec 3 08:01:04 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 08:01:04 -0600 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73BE4E7B-658C-4CE8-8721-D1C50B949452@lunar-tokyo.net> On Dec 3, 2012, at 7:31 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > This from someone too dumb to bottom-post. Already with the personal attacks? What are you, 14? Obviously you're already in the tank for these creeps. Anyway, I'm not too dumb, I was too lazy. I was posting from my cellphone and didn't want to hold backspace long enough to delete the post under mine. I should have waited until I got to my computer to post. I'm not arguing this on the list. I delivered my warning, that's all I intended to do. Anyone who cares to do the research can confirm what I'm posting. The top admins aided and encouraged posting of the most vile content available purely to drive traffic (and therefore ad revenue) to their site. When people complained about it they were harassed and threatened with lawsuits. When they persisted their real names and phone numbers were posted so that they could be subjected to additional harassment. When they turned the tables by posting the real names of the people posting crap, they were banned for "breaking the rules." After the outrage spread the subreddits in question were claimed to be "shut down", when in reality they were renamed an the "rules" (which aren't enforced) were changed. (For example, creepshots was renamed to creepyshots) These guys are shady as hell and you should not be supporting them. From g at kurico.com Mon Dec 3 08:22:13 2012 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 08:22:13 -0600 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <968098490d3319d90c7e4f7e4b7b87a4@mail.mxes.net> On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:31:18 +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 December 2012 12:56, Daniel Seagraves > wrote: >> Don't use reddit. Any site hosting child pornography and rape images >> for money doesn't deserve users. Google for "violentacerz" and >> "creepshots" to see what I am referring to. They try to justify this >> as "freedom of speech" and claim women have no right to complain about >> sexual exploitation of their image. They're a sick, sad, exploitative >> organization and should be avoided by any means. [SNIP] > You need to grow up, get a sense of proportion, learn how the > Internet > works & stop preaching. > > Secondarily, a lesson for you: censorship is a bad thing, however > noble the intentions. Actually his comment "should be avoided by any means" is absolutely not censorship, it is simply free speech. The difference may be subtle but it is critical. He is free to have and state his opinion, just as you have stated yours (re: "preaching"). From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 3 08:40:54 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 08:40:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <73BE4E7B-658C-4CE8-8721-D1C50B949452@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <73BE4E7B-658C-4CE8-8721-D1C50B949452@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2012, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Dec 3, 2012, at 7:31 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> This from someone too dumb to bottom-post. > > Already with the personal attacks? What are you, 14? Obviously you're > already in the tank for these creeps. Anyway, I'm not too dumb, I was > too lazy. I was posting from my cellphone and didn't want to hold > backspace long enough to delete the post under mine. I should have > waited until I got to my computer to post. > > I'm not arguing this on the list. I delivered my warning, that's all I > intended to do. Anyone who cares to do the research can confirm what I'm > posting. The top admins aided and encouraged posting of the most vile > content available purely to drive traffic (and therefore ad revenue) to > their site. When people complained about it they were harassed and > threatened with lawsuits. When they persisted their real names and phone > numbers were posted so that they could be subjected to additional > harassment. When they turned the tables by posting the real names of the > people posting crap, they were banned for "breaking the rules." After > the outrage spread the subreddits in question were claimed to be "shut > down", when in reality they were renamed an the "rules" (which aren't > enforced) were changed. (For example, creepshots was renamed to > creepyshots) These guys are shady as hell and you should not be > supporting them. Meh. Any community (online or otherwise) will almost always contain one or more smaller fringe subgroups which others find controversial, distasteful, etc. Most of what you just described above has happened on Wikipedia too. I know this from first hand experience. Don't believe it? Ask me off-list. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 3 09:03:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 07:03:45 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org> On 12/2/12 8:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they scare the **** out of me. > > I think I bought all of my ZIP drives and media after that problem was resolved. I've used them heavily, and never had a problem. > Same here. Much handier to sneakernet recovered media with a ZIP. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:06:02 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 08:06:02 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <20121203133952.GB7431@n0jcf.net> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <20121203133952.GB7431@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2012 5:42 AM, "Chris Elmquist" wrote: > > I've got an ATAPI ZIP drive in a Linux box for making the copies and > then a pair of SCSI ZIP on the CQD controller in my 11/34. Works great. > I assume you really mean CDU controller there, not CQD. I've got a couple CDU-720 controllers and no Unibus systems to put that in. I'll have to correct that some day... From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 3 11:02:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 11:02:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org> References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/2/12 8:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they >>> scare the **** out of me. >> >> I think I bought all of my ZIP drives and media after that problem was >> resolved. I've used them heavily, and never had a problem. > > Same here. Much handier to sneakernet recovered media with a ZIP. >From what I remember, the main problem was a cost-reduced batch of drives made during a very specific timeframe. To cut costs some idiot decided to leave out a small rubber washer which normally kept the head actuator from hitting the end of the stop. Without it, the servo could damage the head if the drive was powered down while the head was still over the media. Once the head was damaged, any media inserted would be damaged, and that media could then damage the heads of other Zip drives. The details can probably be found with a Google search. Even though the number of defective drives was very small compared to the millions of drives made, that mess severely damaged the reputation of both Iomega and Zip drives. All because some idiot wanted to save a penny or less per drive... From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 11:25:31 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 12:25:31 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: , <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com>, <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com>, <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: GRC still has their "click of death" test utility - http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm it's free, but hasn't been updated, don't know of any other utility or if this actually works (never tested it myself) Dan. > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 11:02:47 -0600 > From: tothwolf at concentric.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: SIMH images to Zip Disks > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 12/2/12 8:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> > >>> Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they > >>> scare the **** out of me. > >> > >> I think I bought all of my ZIP drives and media after that problem was > >> resolved. I've used them heavily, and never had a problem. > > > > Same here. Much handier to sneakernet recovered media with a ZIP. > > From what I remember, the main problem was a cost-reduced batch of drives > made during a very specific timeframe. To cut costs some idiot decided to > leave out a small rubber washer which normally kept the head actuator from > hitting the end of the stop. Without it, the servo could damage the head > if the drive was powered down while the head was still over the media. > Once the head was damaged, any media inserted would be damaged, and that > media could then damage the heads of other Zip drives. The details can > probably be found with a Google search. > > Even though the number of defective drives was very small compared to the > millions of drives made, that mess severely damaged the reputation of both > Iomega and Zip drives. All because some idiot wanted to save a penny or > less per drive... From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Dec 3 12:38:54 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 10:38:54 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000301cdd185$72f1d7c0$58d58740$@comcast.net> Here is a 1998 article from CNET, "Click of death" strikes Iomega http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-207628.html Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 9:03 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SIMH images to Zip Disks On Mon, 3 Dec 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/2/12 8:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they >>> scare the **** out of me. >> >> I think I bought all of my ZIP drives and media after that problem >> was resolved. I've used them heavily, and never had a problem. > > Same here. Much handier to sneakernet recovered media with a ZIP. >From what I remember, the main problem was a cost-reduced batch of drives made during a very specific timeframe. To cut costs some idiot decided to leave out a small rubber washer which normally kept the head actuator from hitting the end of the stop. Without it, the servo could damage the head if the drive was powered down while the head was still over the media. Once the head was damaged, any media inserted would be damaged, and that media could then damage the heads of other Zip drives. The details can probably be found with a Google search. Even though the number of defective drives was very small compared to the millions of drives made, that mess severely damaged the reputation of both Iomega and Zip drives. All because some idiot wanted to save a penny or less per drive... From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 12:54:12 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 10:54:12 -0800 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> On 12/3/2012 4:56 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Don't use reddit. Any site hosting child pornography and rape images for money doesn't deserve users. Google for "violentacerz" and "creepshots" to see what I am referring to. They try to justify this as "freedom of speech" and claim women have no right to complain about sexual exploitation of their image. They're a sick, sad, exploitative organization and should be avoided by any means. > That statement shows a complete lack of understanding of how Reddit works and what even happened with creepshots. You may need to get your news from somewhere else than Fox and the Drudge report. For those that don't know Reddit hosts nothing but, comments. People post links to content elsewhere on the web and people comment on it and vote it up or down depending if they like it or not. That is all Reddit is. Much like a BBS of days gone past. Anyone can make subreddits on any topic they want. People are free to join them or ignore them completely. They won't see them if they don't go looking for them. Reddit doesn't moderate anything. Stuff that is illegal or harmful can be flagged by the community and removed. It happens all the time. It is self censoring really. Bad things get removed or voted down. This 'creepshots' thing was a very small group of people that made a subreddit where they shared links to pictures of women taken in public places without their knowledge. They were hardly porn. The were kinda creepy though. They weren't even illegal in any way. They weren't even sexy. Just voyeuristic. Only way they were sexual was in an individual's mind and we still haven't outlawed thought crimes yet. Women had every right to complain and many did in the comments. They unfortunately had no rights to say how the pictures were or weren't used even it was of them. You give up that right the second you walk into a public place. The rights all belong to the photographer. That's the law and the outrage showed a complete lack of knowledge on the public's part on what free speech and privacy rights they actually enjoy. At least here in the US if you dress in a mini skirt and and platform heels and go to the mall and some creepy guy takes a picture of you it is totally legal. If he posts it on facebook it is totally legal. If he shares the link on reddit it is totally legal. Immoral maybe but, that's not the sort of judgements reddit makes or the constitution makes in protecting free speech. You can think of the whole phoney outrage over the thing like some old prude walking into a library and finding a book with nudes in it and then demanding they burn the whole library down. It was that stupid. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 3 13:53:57 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 14:53:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > They unfortunately had no rights to say how [...] > That's the law and [...] This is fairly jurisdiction-specific. Maybe that's the law where you live, but that doesn't mean it's the law everywhere. How does that interact with something like reddit that, in a sense, exists everywhere with Internet access but also, in another sense, exists in one specific jurisdiction? "Badly". We really really need for our legal systems to figure out how to handle jursidictions that overlap in ways other than simple geographic nesting. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 14:28:36 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:28:36 -0800 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> On 12/3/2012 11:53 AM, Mouse wrote: >> They unfortunately had no rights to say how [...] >> That's the law and [...] > This is fairly jurisdiction-specific. Maybe that's the law where you > live, but that doesn't mean it's the law everywhere. > Well I did qualify it with the "At least here in the US" part or tried too. I certainly wasn't trying to imply it's true everywhere. It certainly isn't. It may actually only be true in the US as most other countries have much stricter laws about this sort of thing. Free speech is something protected over almost every thing else in the US. There is no expectation of privacy in public places and so no protections. Individual jurisdictions have tried to pass laws making public photography and such illegal but, they are pretty much always struck down if anyone bothers to take it to court. I think you pretty much have to go from where the activity took place to decide legality or not. Pretty sure this was all a US event other then people that may have viewed the pictures. The servers, the companies, the victims, and the hated moderator were. Most countries probably wouldn't have cared one little bit about this honestly. Only in America do pictures of fully clothed women become porn somehow. We really have a sex issue here in the US. We seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to repress anything that might even remotely be seen as sexual. Now you can't even take pictures of your own children in a bath without worrying about being taken to jail. Men are afraid to help lost children in malls for fear of being accused of something. It's really gotten out of hand here. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 15:46:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:46:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> question is how do you fix (and fix good) the daughter for breaking the puter to begin with. Does she need glasses? My mother used to tie heavy loads around a particularly pernicious cat's neck to keep her from killing all the birds. To impede her ability to moved fast enough to do any damage. She's from Yugoslavia. The neighbors would remove the rocks when she came around. From the cat's head, not my mother's. Does Dad need fixin' for putting puter where daughter can abuse it? Years ago my friend set up his Tandy 2000 w/the vertical floor standing fixture. She, ~ 1 year old, thought graham crackers would work as well in the floppy drive as disks would. Live and learn. ?Just a few things to think about. From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 3 17:30:08 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 17:30:08 -0600 Subject: Need help with installing PDP-8 4k Disk Monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BD3600.9090300@charter.net> Regarding adding reader control: I did just that for my PDP-8/L, as even my old ancient 8088 could overrun the 8/L when I was sending it diagnostics. I just put a level shifter on that control signal consisting of a clamp diode or two and a couple of resistors to one of the RS-232 model control lines (probably DTE or DCE). Worked great. JRJ On 12/2/2012 9:46 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > For some reason the misbehaving TC01 controller on the PDP-8/I at the > RICM decide work yesterday. Possibly due to the low temperature in the > RICM warehouse. We took advantage of the situation and formatted and > tested five DECtapes. > > Following the procedure in Appendix-A of the 4k Disk System Monitor > System Disk System manual, we ran the DEC-D8-SBAF-PB 4k Disk System > Monitor System Disk System Builder. We told it that the 8/I system > does not have any disks or a high-speed paper tape reader. The System > Builder wrote the Monitor, Loader, Command Decoder, Directory, and > Storage Allocation Block Maps to the DECtape. We were able to enter > the DECtape bootstrap program and boot the 4k monitor. > > The next installation step is to add programs to the DECtape. We > continued with the procedure in Appendix-A.4. When the console > displayed an ^ we entered a CTRL-P and then told the terminal emulator > to send DEC-D8-PDAD-PB Disk System PIP-DF32 tape image. After sending > about 1,500 characters the 8/I started echoing the characters from the > tape image on the console and the command processor tried to use the > input as commands. Somehow, after receiving 1,500 characters the 4k > monitor switched from paper tape input mode to command mode. > > I am not sure if this configuration can be duplicated on one of the > emulators. If someone could try the monitor installation and > subsequent loading of programs from a real "Teletype" it would be > interesting to see if it works. If it does work, then maybe we need to > add the reader control circuitry to the 20mA/RS-232 converter that we > are using to connect a PC to the PDP-8/I. > > Any advice would be appreciated. > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 18:16:56 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:16:56 -0600 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 7:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I know 11/03 are really boring but, this one didn't even get a single bid at > $99 last time and now they've relisted it starting at $19.99. If someone > doesn't pick it up I bet it gets scrapped next. Someone should save it for > $20 if they are local. Looks like Rochester, NY. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/160930444034 Went for just $60 - anyone want to 'fess up to taking on another full rack? -- jht From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 18:47:06 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:47:06 -0800 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BD480A.5060404@gmail.com> On 12/3/2012 4:16 PM, Jason T wrote: > Went for just $60 - anyone want to 'fess up to taking on another full > rack? Wasn't me but, someone got a great deal. That's even better than $99 which was silly cheap. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 19:48:43 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 19:48:43 -0600 Subject: Cheap PDP-11/03 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50BD480A.5060404@gmail.com> References: <50B4135E.5060007@att.net> <50B419A0.7020301@gmail.com> <50BD480A.5060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: never got a responce on my shipping quote so i did not bid on it sigh :( gave them all the info they needed even On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:47 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/3/2012 4:16 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> Went for just $60 - anyone want to 'fess up to taking on another full >> rack? >> > > Wasn't me but, someone got a great deal. That's even better than $99 which > was silly cheap. > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 3 20:11:55 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:11:55 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <000301cdd185$72f1d7c0$58d58740$@comcast.net> References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org> <000301cdd185$72f1d7c0$58d58740$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50BD5BEB.9000905@compsys.to> >Michael Holley wrote: >Here is a 1998 article from CNET, "Click of death" strikes Iomega > >http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-207628.html > >Michael Holley >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tothwolf >Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 9:03 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: SIMH images to Zip Disks > >On Mon, 3 Dec 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > > >>On 12/2/12 8:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> >>>Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Wow! I'll admit that having been hit by the 'click of death', they >>>>scare the **** out of me. >>>> >>>> >>>I think I bought all of my ZIP drives and media after that problem >>>was resolved. I've used them heavily, and never had a problem. >>> >>> >>Same here. Much handier to sneakernet recovered media with a ZIP. >> >> > >>From what I remember, the main problem was a cost-reduced batch of drives >made during a very specific timeframe. To cut costs some idiot decided to >leave out a small rubber washer which normally kept the head actuator from >hitting the end of the stop. Without it, the servo could damage the head if >the drive was powered down while the head was still over the media. >Once the head was damaged, any media inserted would be damaged, and that >media could then damage the heads of other Zip drives. The details can >probably be found with a Google search. > >Even though the number of defective drives was very small compared to the >millions of drives made, that mess severely damaged the reputation of both >Iomega and Zip drives. All because some idiot wanted to save a penny or less >per drive... > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Dec 3 21:09:54 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 19:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11/35-S Message-ID: <1354590594.53925.YahooMailRC@web181306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> What is the "S" variant of the 11/35? It's different enough to have its fiche but since I can't yet read the fiche, I don't know what distinguishes it from the "regular" 11/35. Does anyone know? Thanks, Jack From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 22:44:15 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 22:44:15 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/35-S In-Reply-To: <1354590594.53925.YahooMailRC@web181306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1354590594.53925.YahooMailRC@web181306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > What is the "S" variant of the 11/35? It's different enough to have its fiche > but since I can't yet read the fiche, I don't know what distinguishes it from > the "regular" 11/35. Does anyone know? > > Thanks, > Jack > Hi Jack, I think that came in the ba11-d box, with the h750 ps in the rear. I think it might be listed in the unibus trouble shooting guide. feel free to call me till midnight. Thanks, Paul From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Dec 3 22:49:32 2012 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 23:49:32 -0500 Subject: HP 2113B psu question In-Reply-To: <006301cdcdac$6f27ca00$4d775e00$@xs4all.nl> References: <006301cdcdac$6f27ca00$4d775e00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Rik, On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 22:07, Rik Bos wrote: > The voltages checked out ok, except the 5M and 12M voltages come up a > few seconds (5 to 10 seconds) later than the rest of the voltages. I'm > afraid the time interval is too long but I'm not sure. I measured the +5V M voltage on the PSU front terminal block of my 2108B, and it comes up 8 seconds after applying power. The +5V CPU voltage on the terminal block comes up almost immediately after power on. Is the PON signal asserting after +5V M comes up? -- Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 3 23:28:45 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 00:28:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Only in America do pictures of fully clothed women become porn > somehow. Not that the US is the only country that needs a reality check. Wasn't it Australia who arrested someone on child porn charges over a cartoon of Bart Simpson? > We seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to repress > anything that might even remotely be seen as sexual. ...unless it's an ad, in which case anything that doesn't quite upset the media-censor bluenoses is fine. You can tell the audience that drinking your brand of beer will get you laid all you like, provided you don't put it in so many words or show any "naughty bits"...oh, and provided the "you" whom the ad implies that of is male and straight. And various other things, like white.... Yeah, the US does have various issues. To link this to something actually on-topic, consider the ADAM, from Logical Machine Corporation. I have a PDF (presumably a scan) of a brochure for it which, if taken at face value, implies they'd cracked the natural language understanding and learning problems. Its relevance here is the cover photo, which shows a woman seated at the thing, out on a lawn with a backdrop of plants. She's basically facing the computer, but her head is turned to look at the camera, which is about at her 4 o'clock. She's holding an apple with a bite taken out of it up to her mouth...and, by appearances, is wearing nothing but a pair of glasses. She is, of course, white, long-haired, blonde, and blue-eyed. And, based on the distortion they (don't) generate, the glasses - if they have lenses in the frames at all - are quite weak. It supposedly pulls some 20 amps (110V), requires 60-80 degrees F, but requires no particular cooling. I have trouble seeing those claims as mutually consistent. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 00:47:22 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 22:47:22 -0800 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> On 12/3/2012 9:28 PM, Mouse wrote: >> We seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to repress >> anything that might even remotely be seen as sexual. > ...unless it's an ad, in which case anything that doesn't quite upset > the media-censor bluenoses is fine. The creepyshots thing was odd on a lot of levels. It was nothing at all pornographic unless one saw it as such. You had to put yourself inside the mind of someone that did to even see it that way. Apparently it was very easy for a lot of people. It was just random pictures of women going about normal life. Sitting at a bus stop. Buying shoes at a mall. It was stupid. It wasn't hidden cameras or upskirt things. Just random daily scenes most of us see every day. I didn't even know the subreddit existed until everyone was talking about it so, maybe I missed something earlier. Anyway, I assure anyone that there is no child porn hidden in the vintage computer subreddit that I have seen. I keep meaning to post this though http://www.codeine.org/Archive/Babasses/DEC-PDP/pdp11_and_Zwiebeltuete.jpg He looks of age though so, it's probably ok. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 01:14:44 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 01:14:44 -0600 Subject: REDDIT vintage computing In-Reply-To: <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> Message-ID: hahaha that photo pops up allot on google On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 12:47 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/3/2012 9:28 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> We seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to repress >>> anything that might even remotely be seen as sexual. >>> >> ...unless it's an ad, in which case anything that doesn't quite upset >> the media-censor bluenoses is fine. >> > > The creepyshots thing was odd on a lot of levels. It was nothing at all > pornographic unless one saw it as such. You had to put yourself inside the > mind of someone that did to even see it that way. Apparently it was very > easy for a lot of people. It was just random pictures of women going about > normal life. Sitting at a bus stop. Buying shoes at a mall. It was stupid. > It wasn't hidden cameras or upskirt things. Just random daily scenes most > of us see every day. I didn't even know the subreddit existed until > everyone was talking about it so, maybe I missed something earlier. > > Anyway, I assure anyone that there is no child porn hidden in the vintage > computer subreddit that I have seen. I keep meaning to post this though > http://www.codeine.org/**Archive/Babasses/DEC-PDP/** > pdp11_and_Zwiebeltuete.jpgHe looks of age though so, it's probably ok. > > From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 02:27:05 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:27:05 +0100 Subject: Identifying Data General 107-xxxxxx-xx boards Message-ID: <50BDB3D9.4060002@gmail.com> Hello. I'm trying to identify some DG boards using the 107-xxxxxx-xx numbers. There's a reference list to associate these numbers to the product series? BTW, the numbers I have are these, with draft descriptions: ALU Arithmetic Logic Unit Board. 107-001627-02 Dual Video Board. 107-501548-01 Disk Controller Board. 107-000375-06 ILC Intelligent Local Network Control Board. 10700205403 Disk Logic Board. 107-00089104 Servo/Clock Board. 107-000738-01 Sync / Async Controller Board. 107-00083404 MVII Bus Repeater. 107-00218501 Thanks Andrea From ed.spittles at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 04:44:27 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:44:27 +0000 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another quick update: On 29 November 2012 20:47, Ed Spittles wrote: > On 18 November 2012 19:43, Ed Spittles wrote: >> Alan was >> teaching at Spennymoor Grammar School, and Hector was teaching at the >> nearby Darlington Grammar School. Hector read Alan's book and >> proceeded to get the Maths department and pupils to finance and build >> a machine called DENICE, designed from scratch but with inspiration >> from the book. >> >> Hector later taught at Barnard Castle School > > Where he again built a machine, this time called BRENDA (Barnardian > Electronic Numerical Demonstration Apparatus) Hector has allowed me to distribute his BRENDA simulator (runs on Windows and in WINE on Linux) - see http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?p=23070#p23070 - together with a photo of the machine. There's a demonstration program included, and another program described in the notes. I have virus-checked the simulator, but as always run at your own risk. >> I wrote up some notes on the WW machine here: >> http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2333 > > Updated. And again. Cheers Ed From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 4 10:43:14 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:43:14 -0800 Subject: 3M HCD-75 tape format Message-ID: <50BE2822.7000709@bitsavers.org> FYI I was looking to see if there was a patent on the 3M Kappamat format, and came across patent 4422111 which appears to describe the DC600HC 16 track format. These drives were used in early 80's HP combo winchester/tape systems. A HCD-75 manual is on bitsavers under 3m/ From lsprung at optonline.net Tue Dec 4 11:28:25 2012 From: lsprung at optonline.net (Lance Sprung) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 12:28:25 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction Message-ID: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> Greetings everyone, I just wanted to bring the following 2 items to the lists attention. I'm surprised I've seen no discussion about the record setting prices from the recent Auction Team Breker sale last week where an Apple I sold for about $640,000 and an Altair 8800 reached $16,000. WOW! Does anyone have any insights to these? Do you think these prices were due to auction excitement or new global interest in the value of collectible computers? http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.php/auctions/auction-results/8714-apple -1-computer-sells-for-640000-at-auction-team-breker From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 4 12:02:57 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 19:02:57 +0100 Subject: 3M HCD-75 tape format In-Reply-To: <50BE2822.7000709@bitsavers.org> References: <50BE2822.7000709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <003501cdd249$9ad97300$d08c5900$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: dinsdag 4 december 2012 17:43 > Aan: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: 3M HCD-75 tape format > > FYI > > I was looking to see if there was a patent on the 3M Kappamat format, and > came across patent 4422111 which appears to describe the DC600HC 16 track > format. These drives were used in early 80's HP combo winchester/tape > systems. A HCD-75 manual is on bitsavers under 3m/ > Thanks, nice work.. -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 4 12:31:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:31:02 -0800 Subject: 3M HCD-75 tape format In-Reply-To: <50BE2822.7000709@bitsavers.org> References: <50BE2822.7000709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50BE4166.4090608@sydex.com> On 12/04/2012 08:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > FYI > > I was looking to see if there was a patent on the 3M Kappamat format, > and came across patent 4422111 > which appears to describe the DC600HC 16 track format. These drives were > used in early 80's HP combo winchester/tape > systems. A HCD-75 manual is on bitsavers under 3m/ This looks an awful lot like the ADIC 530/H drive that I have. Takes DC600 size carts, but no optical sensors. The 3M compatibility guide says DC600HC Iotamat. The internal drive is definitely 3M, complete with 3M-labeled EPROMs. Interface appears to be QIC02, however. Kappamat and Gammamat were used on the smaller DC2000-sized carts. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 12:41:04 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 12:41:04 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> References: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> Message-ID: holy crap On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Lance Sprung wrote: > Greetings everyone, > > > > I just wanted to bring the following 2 items to the lists attention. I'm > surprised I've seen no discussion about the record setting prices from the > recent Auction Team Breker sale last week where an Apple I sold for about > $640,000 and an Altair 8800 reached $16,000. WOW! Does anyone have any > insights to these? Do you think these prices were due to auction excitement > or new global interest in the value of collectible computers? > > > http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.php/auctions/auction-results/8714-apple > -1-computer-sells-for-640000-at-auction-team-breker > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 4 13:03:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 11:03:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> References: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> Message-ID: <20121204110251.K15462@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Lance Sprung wrote: > insights to these? Do you think these prices were due to auction excitement > or new global interest in the value of collectible computers? idiots with too much disposable income. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 4 13:11:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <20121204110251.K15462@shell.lmi.net> References: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> <20121204110251.K15462@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> On 12/04/2012 02:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Lance Sprung wrote: >> insights to these? Do you think these prices were due to auction excitement >> or new global interest in the value of collectible computers? > > idiots with too much disposable income. ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 4 13:23:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 11:23:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> References: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> <20121204110251.K15462@shell.lmi.net> <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121204112212.I15462@shell.lmi.net> > > idiots with too much disposable income. On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better > idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. How do I find those guys? I have a lot of crap^H^H^H^H valuable items that they should buy! From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 4 14:17:36 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:17:36 -0600 Subject: Kerrville TX warehouse sale Message-ID: <007201cdd25c$66c5b6b0$34512410$@com> The old IBM terminal is gone, as is all of the Display Write stuff. The HP terminals are also gone, as is the original Apple ][, and a few of the Apple single floppy drives. The Apple III is also gone, but the Lisa is still here. Those who wanted things (other than what is sold above), please email me again, and I will get you pics and requested prices. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5934 - Release Date: 12/03/12 From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 08:18:40 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:18:40 -0500 Subject: System Console from PDP-10 KA10 System Number 105. Message-ID: > From: Pontus > Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 23:43:59 +0100 > Subject: Re: System Console from PDP-10 KA10 System Number 105. > On 12/02/2012 04:29 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >> The System Console from the DEC PDP-10 KA-10 System #105 at >> BOCES-LIRICS was recently donated to the RICM. >> We are considering mounting a System-on-a-Chip to the back of the >> console and making it a "live" PDP-10. >> >> For more information on the console see: >> https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/interesting_computer_items/dec-pdp-ka10 >> > > Very nice. It is smaller than I have imagined. Bruce Maier is excellent for scale :) > > /P Keep in mind that Bruce is taller than most people, so the console is pretty big. I will take some better pictures next week and add some objects for scale. -- Michael Thompson From andrea.pastega at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 02:20:21 2012 From: andrea.pastega at gmail.com (Andrea Pastega) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:20:21 +0100 Subject: identifying Data General boards Message-ID: <50BDB245.4020307@gmail.com> Hello. I'm trying to identify some DG boards using the 107-xxxxxx-xx numbers. There's a reference list to associate these numbers to the product series? BTW, the numbers I have are these, with draft descriptions: ALU Arithmetic Logic Unit Board. 107-001627-02 Dual Video Board. 107-501548-01 Disk Controller Board. 107-000375-06 ILC Intelligent Local Network Control Board. 10700205403 Disk Logic Board. 107-00089104 Servo/Clock Board. 107-000738-01 Sync / Async Controller Board. 107-00083404 MVII Bus Repeater. 107-00218501 Thanks Andrea From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 4 15:40:52 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 15:40:52 -0600 Subject: identifying Data General boards In-Reply-To: <50BDB245.4020307@gmail.com> References: <50BDB245.4020307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009e01cdd268$089e3470$19da9d50$@com> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Data-General-DG-Nova-2-Nova-3-Nova-4-Dual-Video-Bo ard-/300824025380?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460a825924&ssPageName=RSS:B :SHOP:GB:101 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Data-General-DG-Nova-2-Nova-3-Nova-4-DGC-Disk-Cont roller-Board-/300824024456 Looks like maybe a Nova 2, 3 or 4? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Pastega Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: identifying Data General boards Hello. I'm trying to identify some DG boards using the 107-xxxxxx-xx numbers. There's a reference list to associate these numbers to the product series? BTW, the numbers I have are these, with draft descriptions: ALU Arithmetic Logic Unit Board. 107-001627-02 Dual Video Board. 107-501548-01 Disk Controller Board. 107-000375-06 ILC Intelligent Local Network Control Board. 10700205403 Disk Logic Board. 107-00089104 Servo/Clock Board. 107-000738-01 Sync / Async Controller Board. 107-00083404 MVII Bus Repeater. 107-00218501 Thanks Andrea ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5934 - Release Date: 12/03/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5934 - Release Date: 12/03/12 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 16:01:35 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:01:35 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <20121204112212.I15462@shell.lmi.net> References: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> <20121204110251.K15462@shell.lmi.net> <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> <20121204112212.I15462@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50BE72BF.2010302@gmail.com> On 12/04/2012 01:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> idiots with too much disposable income. > On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better >> idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. > > How do I find those guys? I have a lot of crap^H^H^H^H valuable items > that they should buy! You have to stir up a feeding frenzy based around some vague notion of whatever you have to sell being somehow ground-breaking or "first". It seems to help if examples of your crap have been seen in a movie or two as well. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 16:07:14 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 22:07:14 +0000 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <50BE72BF.2010302@gmail.com> References: <005201cdd244$c4a7c1f0$4df745d0$@net> <20121204110251.K15462@shell.lmi.net> <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> <20121204112212.I15462@shell.lmi.net> <50BE72BF.2010302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1776312328-1354658834-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207344092-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> sed -i 's/crap/rare/g' I think that's how they do it. -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:01:35 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction On 12/04/2012 01:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> idiots with too much disposable income. > On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better >> idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. > > How do I find those guys? I have a lot of crap^H^H^H^H valuable items > that they should buy! You have to stir up a feeding frenzy based around some vague notion of whatever you have to sell being somehow ground-breaking or "first". It seems to help if examples of your crap have been seen in a movie or two as well. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 4 16:09:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 22:09:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 4, 12 02:11:04 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/04/2012 02:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Lance Sprung wrote: > >> insights to these? Do you think these prices were due to auction excitement > >> or new global interest in the value of collectible computers? > > > > idiots with too much disposable income. > > ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better > idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. And how do you define 'value'? I know how _I_ define the vlaue of soemthing like this. It's in terms of how much enjoyment I wil lget out of it. So an Applie 1 is worth about $10 to me. On the other hand I recently bid a few hundred dollars for a part of an HP peripehral for one of my m,achines (and fortunately got it for much less) becuase that would provide many hours of entertainment. -tony From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 16:21:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:21:47 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. If someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. It looks pretty loaded too. http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 4 16:25:07 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 16:25:07 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: References: <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 4, 12 02:11:04 pm Message-ID: <00b501cdd26e$376b3220$a6419660$@com> What they don't say is the 15%+ seller's premium, nor the $750+ to get it listed in the first place. That is what a lot of these auction houses charge. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 4:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction > > On 12/04/2012 02:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Lance Sprung wrote: > >> insights to these? Do you think these prices were due to auction > >> excitement or new global interest in the value of collectible computers? > > > > idiots with too much disposable income. > > ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better > idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. And how do you define 'value'? I know how _I_ define the vlaue of soemthing like this. It's in terms of how much enjoyment I wil lget out of it. So an Applie 1 is worth about $10 to me. On the other hand I recently bid a few hundred dollars for a part of an HP peripehral for one of my m,achines (and fortunately got it for much less) becuase that would provide many hours of entertainment. -tony ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5934 - Release Date: 12/03/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5934 - Release Date: 12/03/12 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 4 16:30:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:30:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121204142846.Y19382@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I know how _I_ define the vlaue of soemthing like this. It's in terms of > how much enjoyment I wil lget out of it. So an Applie 1 is worth about > $10 to me. I thought that the value of an Apple 1 was already preset at 2/3 of a thousand dollars (penny truncated, not rounded) I think that it is prob'ly worth that. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 4 17:02:19 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:02:19 +1300 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: References: <50BE4AC8.2010509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >And how do you define 'value'? Yes, it depends "value" means to people and the value to the individual can vary widely. If we are looking at MARKET VALUE though (the amount a particular thing might fetch on the open market) the following factors come into play to varying degrees. - Rarity - Cultural significance/impact of the model to the world or the country it was sold it - Nostalgia for a certain age group or group of buyers - Condition - Working or not - Boxed - With manuals or other documentation of value - Cultural significance/impact of this particular computer (e.g. was it owned by someone significant (and is there proof of such?) Some factors are interrelated and some carry more weight than others. Terry (Tez) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 18:16:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 19:16:09 -0500 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C695A2F-9677-49C1-ABEA-0BA7DE612F82@gmail.com> On Dec 4, 2012, at 5:21 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. If someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. It looks pretty loaded too. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 Oh man, that's lovely and it looks like it's going for a steal (so far). Hope someone acquires it for something other than scrapping purposes. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 4 18:20:51 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 16:20:51 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:21 PM -0800 12/4/12, mc68010 wrote: >This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. >If someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. >It looks pretty loaded too. > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 Wow! That's beautiful! Thankfully it's not very close to me, and I'd hate to have to pay the electric bill for powering it up! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 4 18:33:50 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 00:33:50 +0000 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 04/12/2012 22:21, "mc68010" wrote: > This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. If > someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. It > looks pretty loaded too. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 Oh man....wrong side of the pond AGAIN. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 19:10:40 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:10:40 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <3C695A2F-9677-49C1-ABEA-0BA7DE612F82@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <3C695A2F-9677-49C1-ABEA-0BA7DE612F82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BE9F10.2050508@gmail.com> On 12/4/2012 4:16 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Dec 4, 2012, at 5:21 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. If someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. It looks pretty loaded too. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 > Oh man, that's lovely and it looks like it's going for a > steal (so far). Hope someone acquires it for something > other than scrapping purposes. > > > - Dave Looks like it has a graphics system in it too. Lexidata System 3400. http://origin-www.computer.org/plugins/dl/pdf/mags/co/1981/11/01667157.pdf Is that whole third unit just the 3400 ? I really am not sure how this sort of system ended up out here in the farm country of California. Seems a bit much to manage a dairy farm. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 19:49:36 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:49:36 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BEA830.1090701@gmail.com> I actually heard back from the people that have it. It's some national e-recycling company that gets things from all over so, has no idea where anything actually comes from. Also interesting is that they apparently only operate out of prisons using convict labor. Their facilities are located entirely inside prisons. You can't pick stuff up for obvious reason. I guess they found a way to compete with the Chinese recyclers labor costs. I had no idea this was going on. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 20:12:37 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 20:12:37 -0600 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BEA830.1090701@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <50BEA830.1090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: interesting and a good use of otherwise lost time and lost money.... why not... On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 7:49 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I actually heard back from the people that have it. It's some national > e-recycling company that gets things from all over so, has no idea where > anything actually comes from. Also interesting is that they apparently > only operate out of prisons using convict labor. Their facilities are > located entirely inside prisons. You can't pick stuff up for obvious > reason. I guess they found a way to compete with the Chinese recyclers > labor costs. I had no idea this was going on. > From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 20:21:06 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:21:06 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <50BEA830.1090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BEAF92.4070300@gmail.com> On 12/4/2012 6:12 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > interesting and a good use of otherwise lost time and lost money.... why > not... > Looking at their website http://meritpartners.org/blog/ it does look like they are actually trying to do good rather than just use cheap labor. They use the recycling to help train youth offenders computer skills. Mainly refurbishing PC and such. They don't even seem to know how they ended up with the VAX. This actually seems like a really good organization. The prison thing threw me at first. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 4 20:44:19 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 18:44:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: P112 kit for latecomers Message-ID: I'm now ready to take orders for P112 kits from people who didn't get onboard the Kickstarter project. For a complete kit (board and all parts that solder or plug into it), the cost is $200 to addresses inside the US -- $215 outside the US. If you want one (or more) please email me with your Paypal address so I can make up a proper invoice. Alternatively, I will accept check and money orders. If you want Terry Gulczynski to build and test the kit for you let me know and I'll get that set up. If you're outside the US and want this service, you can pay the inside-the-US price. I'll ship the kit to Terry. He'll charge you for his services and ship you your board. If you want to order a GIDE board at the same time, he can do that too for you. He'll also sell you the GIDE board by itself if you want to build it all yourself. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 23:09:55 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 23:09:55 -0600 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC1453.9060601@brouhaha.com> <50BC241F.9010903@brouhaha.com> <50BCBF51.6050803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > GRC still has their "click of death" test utility - > http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm > it's free, but hasn't been updated, don't know of any other utility or if this actually works (never tested it myself) It runs but reports that it was set to expire on 1/1/2010 and please visit grc.com (where I got it) for the latest version :( And yeah, setting the OS date back works. j From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 00:45:59 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 22:45:59 -0800 Subject: Heath Z-19 terminal spotted for sale in PDX Message-ID: I stopped by Free Geeks in Portland Oregon tonight and they had a nice condition Heath Z-19 terminal for $60. I didn't have the extra cash to buy it but thought I would post it here. The cosmetic condition of the terminal was very good. I looked inside and it appears complete and it is just a terminal. I did not power it up. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 01:17:06 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 05:17:06 -0200 Subject: Plastic Repair References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Does Dad need fixin' for putting puter where daughter can abuse it? Years >ago my friend set up his Tandy 2000 >w/the vertical floor standing fixture. >She, ~ 1 year old, thought graham crackers would work as well in the floppy > >drive as disks would. Live and learn. And it worked? Did she found a nice supply of fresh (and edible) discs? :oO :o) From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 5 02:15:04 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 03:15:04 -0500 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters Message-ID: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> Are these any good? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Video-converter-to-replace-Amiga-1200-2000-RGB-monitor-to-connect-to-LCD-CRT-/181005046536 I was searching ebay for Amiga 2000 and came across it, seems cheap enough if it works ok. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 5 02:16:52 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 01:16:52 -0700 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50BF02F4.3020501@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/5/2012 12:17 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Does Dad need fixin' for putting puter where daughter can abuse it? >> Years ago my friend set up his Tandy 2000 >w/the vertical floor >> standing fixture. She, ~ 1 year old, thought graham crackers would >> work as well in the floppy >drive as disks would. Live and learn. > > And it worked? Did she found a nice supply of fresh (and edible) > discs? :oO Dumb People; Only Soda Crackers with Soup are *FLOPPY* ! From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Dec 5 02:17:04 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 08:17:04 +0000 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 December 2012 07:17, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Does Dad need fixin' for putting puter where daughter can abuse it? Years >> ago my friend set up his Tandy 2000 >w/the vertical floor standing fixture. >> She, ~ 1 year old, thought graham crackers would work as well in the floppy >> >drive as disks would. Live and learn. > > > And it worked? Did she found a nice supply of fresh (and edible) discs? > :oO > At least the days of crayons being posted into VHS decks are now over ... ..as seem to be the days of finding 5.25" discs posted into the gap /between/ drives.. Rob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 02:30:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 06:30:23 -0200 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <184F6292AA6843968ADB19CE73828AB2@tababook> We use them a lot in Brazil, they works :) But you can spare it if you can find a Samsung 510N, 710N, 910N, 910T or LG M1721A or M1921A All of them are compatible with 15KHz horizontal sync. I use a M1721A in my A2000 with no circuit whatsoever. Just remember: - In the M1721A/M1921A you MUST connect composite sync to horizontal sync input (and no vertical sync) - In the Samsung monitors, you MUST connect hsync to hsync and vsync to vsync. If you see interference on screen, cut vsync And it works :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "TeoZ" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 6:15 AM Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters Are these any good? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Video-converter-to-replace-Amiga-1200-2000-RGB-monitor-to-connect-to-LCD-CRT-/181005046536 I was searching ebay for Amiga 2000 and came across it, seems cheap enough if it works ok. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 02:31:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 06:31:03 -0200 Subject: Plastic Repair References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50BF02F4.3020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5D97909D877D45AEBF4C4C7D0304419A@tababook> > On 12/5/2012 12:17 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Does Dad need fixin' for putting puter where daughter can abuse it? >>> Years ago my friend set up his Tandy 2000 >w/the vertical floor >>> standing fixture. She, ~ 1 year old, thought graham crackers would >>> work as well in the floppy >drive as disks would. Live and learn. >> >> And it worked? Did she found a nice supply of fresh (and edible) >> discs? :oO > Dumb People; Only Soda Crackers with Soup are *FLOPPY* ! :o\ Can't I try hard? :oP World is made of inovations! :D From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Dec 5 02:48:02 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 08:48:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> ? >> This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. If >> someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. It >> looks pretty loaded too. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 > > Oh man....wrong side of the pond AGAIN. > > -- Yeah, these systems seem to *always* show up in the US, only :( From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 03:00:58 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 07:00:58 -0200 Subject: Plastic Repair References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17F2C5ABA7E6472DADE5AAC7C2994B47@tababook> > At least the days of crayons being posted into VHS decks are now over ... > ..as seem to be the days of finding 5.25" discs posted into the gap > /between/ drives.. There is an old tale, of a brazilian guy who sold an old 486 for another brazilian guy, tested the machine in front of him...and being called at night with a complaint of "I cannot pull the CD-ROM disc from the machine". And the CD-ROM disc was inserted into the 5 1/4 floppy drive... :o) From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 03:19:29 2012 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 01:19:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD : Cisco multibus (AGS) router Message-ID: <1354699169.39368.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I like to run an older Cisco multibus router with my old computers, just to keep it all 'vintage' and I'd like to find a spare router if anyone has one. Any of the older Cisco 'multibus' AGS routers would be of interest. I'm in the UK, but would pay for postage from overseas. Thanks. From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Dec 5 04:36:16 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:36:16 +0100 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> On 12/05/2012 09:48 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Yeah, these systems seem to *always* show up in the US, only :( > > > I beg to differ, a friend of mine (and cctalk reader): http://www.foxdata.com/blog/?cat=81 /P From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Dec 5 04:48:31 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:48:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> > > On 12/05/2012 09:48 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: >> Yeah, these systems seem to *always* show up in the US, only :( >> >> >> > > I beg to differ, a friend of mine (and cctalk reader): > > http://www.foxdata.com/blog/?cat=81 > > /P > Ok, that's great! It's just that during the last years, I've never heard anything about a VAX 11/780 changing places and owners in Europe. That now changes my perspective a bit :) ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Dec 5 05:02:32 2012 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:02:32 +0100 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121205110232.GE19020@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2012-12-04 14:21:47 -0800, mc68010 wrote: > This one is very close to me and that just makes it hurt even more. > If someone wants to buy this for me for xmas they are free to do so. > It looks pretty loaded too. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200859112804 What a nice box! I'd buy it without thinking a second about it, but it's too far away and shipping it to Germany is probably out of scope :( MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Friends are relatives you make for yourself. the second : From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 07:04:19 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 08:04:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, TeoZ wrote: > Are these any good? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Video-converter-to-replace-Amiga-1200-2000-RGB-monitor-to-connect-to-LCD-CRT-/181005046536 > > I was searching ebay for Amiga 2000 and came across it, seems cheap > enough if it works ok. I have one of those here and it works fine on Amiga modes with 15 KHz horizontal scan rates. Don't expect it to understand some of the oddball ones, though. YMMV on interlaced output. The only converter I've seen that does a consistently good job on interlaced modes is the CYP CM-3455 SCART <--> VGA unit (which is also one of the few that yields good results on an Apple IIgs). -- From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 4 18:30:16 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 00:30:16 +0000 (WET) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction Message-ID: <01ONEPROI2V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > idiots with too much disposable income. > On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ...or, playing devil's advocate here, rich people with a much better > > idea of an item's value than this (notoriously over-the-top cheap) crowd. > > How do I find those guys? I have a lot of crap^H^H^H^H valuable items > that they should buy! > I'll bet they'd love to buy lots of R at RE gold plated IEC to BS1363 power cords. From JHMcCarthy at aol.com Tue Dec 4 16:50:17 2012 From: JHMcCarthy at aol.com (JHMcCarthy at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 17:50:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Welcome to the "cctech" mailing list (PC Parts) Message-ID: <3ab.3b9dd200.3defd828@aol.com> To be posted for members: I am president of the IBMSFQCCAA and we have spent the last few years restoring IBM PC, PCXT, PC Jr, and PS 2 units. We have a number of parts and some functioning units available for you if you are interested in covering the shipping. We also have a significant number of associated Hardware and Software manuals. Let me know if you are interested. ---- Jud Justin (Jud) McCarthy 251 SW 9th Ave Boca Raton, FL 33486 Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 In a message dated 11/22/2012 7:27:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, cctech-request at classiccmp.org writes: cctech at classiccmp.org From nick.jarmany at quixant.com Wed Dec 5 04:28:57 2012 From: nick.jarmany at quixant.com (Nick Jarmany) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:28:57 +0000 Subject: BBC iPlayer - Britain on Film: The Joy of Tech Message-ID: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B423DFBC@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local> For anyone resident in the UK and missed it, this program is a "must watch":- http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01p65b7/Britain_on_Film_The_Joy_of_Tech/ ________________________________ The information contained in this message as well as the attached file(s) is confidential/privileged and is only intended for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. 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For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com ______________________________________________________________________ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 5 08:27:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:27:34 -0500 Subject: WTD : Cisco multibus (AGS) router In-Reply-To: <1354699169.39368.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1354699169.39368.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50BF59D6.7040202@neurotica.com> On 12/05/2012 04:19 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I like to run an older Cisco multibus router with my old computers, just to keep it > all 'vintage' and I'd like to find a spare router if anyone has one. Any of the older > Cisco 'multibus' AGS routers would be of interest. I'm in the UK, but would pay > for postage from overseas. Thanks. My old AGS+ (which I ran in production when it was current!) is spoken for, but I have an MGS (same thing, smaller chassis) that I might be convinced to part with for the right deal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 5 09:20:51 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 08:20:51 -0700 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Sellam Ismail writes: > The Vintage Computer Festival is currently securing funding for > operations and storage of the VCF Archives for the next 6 months. This message leaves me confused. Am I funding Sellam? Am I funding another Vintage Computing Festival? What are "the VCF Archives"? I've never even heard of something labelled as such until now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jgessling at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 09:55:58 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 07:55:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2012-December/326524.html Message-ID: <1354722958.83412.YahooMailNeo@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I wonder if that was originally from Tri-Valley Growers.? a very large agricultural Co-op based in Modesto (nearby) that went bankrupt in 1999.? They were heavy VAX and later alpha users and would show up fairly regularly at BAYVAX meetings back in the day.? Not sure about the graphics thing though, can't remember them talking about that, but it's been a while.? Just for fun I googled for "tri valley growers vax" and was surprised to see how many people out there have that on their resumes.? Pretty fertile ground for computer people as well as fruit. Regards, Jim From chrise at pobox.com Wed Dec 5 10:24:33 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:24:33 -0600 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <20121203133952.GB7431@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121205162433.GE16935@n0jcf.net> On Monday (12/03/2012 at 08:06AM -0800), Glen Slick wrote: > On Dec 3, 2012 5:42 AM, "Chris Elmquist" wrote: > > > > I've got an ATAPI ZIP drive in a Linux box for making the copies and > > then a pair of SCSI ZIP on the CQD controller in my 11/34. Works great. > > > > I assume you really mean CDU controller there, not CQD. I've got a couple > CDU-720 controllers and no Unibus systems to put that in. I'll have to > correct that some day... Actually, I think I meant CMD (brand) controller. I'm drawing a blank on the exact model number but it's the one that does disk only and not also tape. It could be CDU-720... that does ring a bell. It's got firmware on it that the '11 executes when you enable the ROM and then jump to that from ODT. That firmware provides a user interface for configuring the card and each of the target devices as well as the means to then boot from a specific device. I use that user interface to ge it to boot from one of the ZIPs. I wonder if anyone has attempted to archive the firmware and PALs on these SCSI cards? I have a second card that was injured in a horrible accident (I plugged it into the Unibus, justified the wrong way... so, it was off by two in all the edge connectors. This promptly fried the card because the +20V core voltage ended up in all the wrong places. That was the quickest $300 I ever burned. It was however, educational. I've since repaired most of the damage, replacing buffers, burned traces, etc. however a couple PALs were affected and need to be replaced. I am chicken to take them from my working board and try to read them out unless there's a high likelihood it can be done. Or, if they've already been read, then I could just burn new ones from the images and try them. For some reason, I've put most of this whole event out of my mind :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 11:02:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:02:18 -0500 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <20121205162433.GE16935@n0jcf.net> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <20121203133952.GB7431@n0jcf.net> <20121205162433.GE16935@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <54411111-AE47-4F66-B35D-460371063F8B@gmail.com> On Dec 5, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > It's got firmware on it that the '11 executes when you enable the ROM > and then jump to that from ODT. That firmware provides a user interface > for configuring the card and each of the target devices as well as the > means to then boot from a specific device. I use that user interface > to ge it to boot from one of the ZIPs. The CQD-220 (QBUS) one is similar, though my 11/23+ has the capability to boot MSCP/TMSCP devices directly, so I use that. > I wonder if anyone has attempted to archive the firmware and PALs on > these SCSI cards? Haha, funny you should mention that. I had to dump and disassemble it to figure out why my card was bricked (helpful hint: NEVER set the number of disks and tapes to zero). The CQD-220, which may or may not be related to the CDU-720, is a pretty standard 8086 design with a small amount of SRAM. The ROM image is actually a DOS executable, which makes me wonder if their development machines were 8086 PCs. I believe someone (who can name himself if he'd like, though I don't want to run the risk of incurring the wrath of the Attack Lawyers on someone else) has a bunch of images of various firmware versions, at least for the CQD-220. He also has a reverse-engineered PAL equation set for the CSR decode PAL (which is a pretty simple combinatorial decode circuit), but the rest of the PALs (on the CQD-220, at least) are probably somewhat more complicated. I'm willing to bet that they have the security fuses blown, as well, but I haven't checked. > I have a second card that was injured in a horrible accident (I plugged > it into the Unibus, justified the wrong way... so, it was off by two in > all the edge connectors. This promptly fried the card because the +20V > core voltage ended up in all the wrong places. That was the quickest > $300 I ever burned. It was however, educational. > > I've since repaired most of the damage, replacing buffers, burned traces, > etc. however a couple PALs were affected and need to be replaced. > I am chicken to take them from my working board and try to read them > out unless there's a high likelihood it can be done. You might have some luck replicating them if you can find (or make) a schematic, because most of their functions should be pretty apparent from that. It takes an awfully long time to trace out a board like that, though, especially with components still on (and if it's like the CQD-220, it's a four-layer board with at least some of the signal traces buried in inner layers). > Or, if they've already been read, then I could just burn new ones from > the images and try them. I'd be thrilled if they were reverse-engineered, or if someone can persuade CMD (now owned by Silicon Image) to release the materials needed to repair vintage hardware. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 11:37:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:37:32 -0500 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Dear friends, > > Yesterday I got a SDK-86 as a gift from a friend... > > Photos (and the page as soon as I finish rebuilding it) at > http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/ Hi, Alexandre, Did you ever get this working? I ask because I was cleaning up the shelves in my hobby room and found lurking under my "Z80 Starter Kit" a clean SDK-86. Mine has been stored indoors, clean and in a static bag, so I don't anticipate the sorts of cleaning problems you had, but I have no idea yet if there are any issues with the RAM chips. -ethan From bryan.pope at comcast.net Wed Dec 5 11:56:46 2012 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:56:46 -0500 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> On 12/5/2012 10:20 AM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Sellam Ismail writes: > >> The Vintage Computer Festival is currently securing funding for >> operations and storage of the VCF Archives for the next 6 months. > This message leaves me confused. > > Am I funding Sellam? > > Am I funding another Vintage Computing Festival? > > What are "the VCF Archives"? I've never even heard of something > labelled as such until now. The "VCF Archives" has been talked about here, but it was awhile ago and probably didn't use that exact wording. Here is a picture of a small section of the VCF Archives: http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533384722/ Cheers, Bryan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 5 12:30:43 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 10:30:43 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> On 12/5/12 9:56 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > The "VCF Archives" has been talked about here, but it was awhile ago and probably didn't use that exact wording. Here is a picture of a small section of the VCF Archives: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533384722/ > That was when it was in Livermore. It moved to Stockton and from what I've heard, it has to move again. VCF, Vintagetech, etc. is all the same thing (Sellam's business). I think it's a bit much to ask of someone to guess at what he has. I was there when it was in Livermore and it was mostly microcomputer related things. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 12:38:14 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:38:14 -0800 Subject: SIMH images to Zip Disks In-Reply-To: <54411111-AE47-4F66-B35D-460371063F8B@gmail.com> References: <50BC15E0.1070202@brouhaha.com> <20121203133952.GB7431@n0jcf.net> <20121205162433.GE16935@n0jcf.net> <54411111-AE47-4F66-B35D-460371063F8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: The CMD CQD and CDU firmware images I have were available on CMD's FTP site. Those are still lurking out there in the archives from 1996. I reverse engineered the CSR decode PALs on the CQD-200, 220, and 220A. It was fairly obvious after tracing the bus signals through the bus transcievers to the CSR decode PAL along with the decode select jumpers. I am 100% sure about the 200 and 220. The 220A is less obvious. I believe in the 220A the main address decoding is done elsewhere, maybe in an ASIC, and the CSR decode PAL is only used to enable additional non-standard CSR addresses, plus output a model code (/TM vs /E, where /E is either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time). The CDU-720 I have is an /M. I don't currently have a UNIBUS system to use it in. Someday when I acquire one I'll try the exercise of reverse engineering the CSR decode PAL on that one to use it as a /TM. There are about 10 other socketed PALs on the 720. I assume they are all security protected as well. I wouldn't want to have to try to reverse engineer any of the other PALs. -Glen From fast79ta at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 12:42:07 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 11:42:07 -0700 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <008401cdd318$3a795b40$af6c11c0$@yahoo.com> -----Original Message----- I have one of those here and it works fine on Amiga modes with 15 KHz horizontal scan rates. Don't expect it to understand some of the oddball ones, though. YMMV on interlaced output. The only converter I've seen that does a consistently good job on interlaced modes is the CYP CM-3455 SCART <--> VGA unit (which is also one of the few that yields good results on an Apple IIgs). -- I did a search for the CM-3455 scart converter. Not a lot came up. As I don't have an Apple IIgs monitor (is it wrong to be using a commodore monitor on composite on my apple?), I would be nice to have a VGA/LCD monitor for it. Where did you find it? Even better if it works with some of my other old junk (CGA/MDA PC's). Cheers, Joe From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 5 13:30:52 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 20:30:52 +0100 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:48:31 +0000 (GMT) P Gebhardt wrote: > Ok, that's great! It's just that during the last years, I've never heard > anything about a VAX 11/780 changing places and owners in Europe. Quite some years back there was a picture of an 11/780 on the NetBSD/VAX port page. It had two subtitles: "Not all VAXen are this big (7.2 m), but only the funy ones." The other was: "Old VAXen never die. They just move north." Ragge, the NetBSD/VAX portmaster, later told us "Ohh, that is quite incorrect. We extended that VAX meanwhile and now it is about 9.5 m long." -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 5 13:54:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:54:28 -0700 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50BF92D3.1060206 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 12/5/12 9:56 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > The "VCF Archives" has been talked about here, but it was awhile ago and pr obably didn't use that exact wording. Here is a picture of a small section of the VCF Archives: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533384722/ I've seen pictures like this before, but was never very interested because it seemed like it was 50% books and shrinkwrapped software and the other 50% was mostly microcomputers. > VCF, Vintagetech, etc. is all the same thing (Sellam's business). OK, so this is a request by Sellam to fund Sellam by selling unspecified, unknown stuff. Wouldn't it have been better to have a functioning VCF West? There hasn't been one since 2007. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 14:01:22 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:01:22 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 11:54 AM, Richard wrote: > OK, so this is a request by Sellam to fund Sellam by selling > unspecified, unknown stuff. Wouldn't it have been better to have a > functioning VCF West? There hasn't been one since 2007. Why hasn't there been one and if Sellam can't deal with it anymore why doesn't he step aside and let someone else take over ? There has only been an increase in interest in vintage computers since the last one. Does Sellam own the rights to the name or something ? Maybe it could just be called something else and we could get an event out here again. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 15:00:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:00:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1354741258.87614.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas Does Dad need fixin' for putting puter where daughter can abuse it? Years ago my friend set up his Tandy 2000 >w/the vertical floor standing fixture. She, ~ 1 year old, thought graham crackers would work as well in the floppy >drive as disks would. Live and learn. ? And it worked? Did she found a nice supply of fresh (and edible) discs? :oO ? :o)If C: It was effectual in causing dad to get his puter off the floor. In that sense it worked. ??? I doubt such a youngin is capable of arriving at your conclusion logically. If she was of the habit of leaving her graham crackers in the drive, then coming back and eating them later, perhaps then at some point she might try to dine on floppy media. A long shot, only likely in the even the computer was not used for a length of time. Dad would certainly have heard a particularly nasty sound once he turned it on, and would have extracted it. ?Perhaps there's a profound discovery herein. Perhaps graham crackers might be the ideal media everyone has been searching for. ?I sure hope you all in Brazil don't feed your chillinz old floppy disks when supplies get low (A JOKE). We who were born in bigger cities have, or at least I have, dined quite regularly on plaster chips (and slabs!) in our youths. But the texture is far to be desired over floppy platters. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 15:03:33 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:03:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <17F2C5ABA7E6472DADE5AAC7C2994B47@tababook> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <17F2C5ABA7E6472DADE5AAC7C2994B47@tababook> Message-ID: <1354741413.58528.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas > At least the days of crayons being posted into VHS decks are now over ... > ..as seem to be the days of finding 5.25" discs posted into the gap > /between/ drives.. ? There is an old tale, of a brazilian guy who sold an old 486 for another brazilian guy, tested the machine in front of him...and being called at night with a complaint of "I cannot pull the CD-ROM disc from the machine". And the CD-ROM disc was inserted into the 5 1/4 floppy drive... ? :o) C: Only in Brazil of course (A JOKE). Or New Jersey ;) ???? I just shipped my barely used PSP-3000 to Rio less then an hour ago. As if anyone cared. What an adorable little device. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 5 15:48:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:48:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Dec 5, 12 12:02:19 pm Message-ID: > If we are looking at MARKET VALUE though (the amount a particular thing > might fetch on the open market) the following factors come into play to > varying degrees. Sure, these are criteria that affect the value for most 'collectables' (Acutallly, isn't just about anything collactable?). But they don't, IMHO, expalin why the Apple 1 gets such a high price > > - Rarity Yes, the Apple 1 is rare. But not _that_ rare, given the numebr that seem to turn up for sale. I can certainyl name rarer machines (3 of whcih I can see from where I am sitting) wehich don't attract anything like that sort of price. > - Cultural significance/impact of the model to the world or the country > it was sold it > - Nostalgia for a certain age group or group of buyers I can't beleive that many people are nostalgc for an Apple 1. Not that many people had them when they were new. And therefore IMHO it is not a culturally significant machien _otehr than the fact it was the first machine madee by Apple, a company which is still going_. > - Condition Which tends ot mean cosnmetic condiiton. > - Working or not Seems ot make very littile difference. Most collectors don't care, they would never turn it on anyway. Hackers don't care eitehr, they can fix it. > - Boxed Yes, for some odd reaso nhis is important. I have never understood why, other than presuambly ahving the machien and box is less common than having the machine, so a boxed one is rarer. > - With manuals or other documentation of value Does that make much difference. Hackers who want to run the machine will get the manuals from bitsavers or wherecer. Otherwise, having the manuals makes it rarer, I guess > - Cultural significance/impact of this particular computer (e.g. was it > owned by someone significant (and is there proof of such?) > > Some factors are interrelated and some carry more weight than others. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 5 15:51:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:51:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 5, 12 05:17:06 am Message-ID: > And it worked? Did she found a nice supply of fresh (and edible) discs? > :oO I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 5 15:57:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:57:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Dec 5, 12 08:17:04 am Message-ID: > > ..as seem to be the days of finding 5.25" discs posted into the gap > /between/ drives.. A bit more recently, it was not uncommon to find CD-ROMs pushed in between the drives (or blanking plates). In the days of the Mac II, etc. the cases were designed ot take 2 floppy drives, but only one was fitted as standard. There was a blacnking plte fited bekind the slot for the second disk, but it was inadequatley fixed and often fell out. At which point users posted their disks int othe slot whereupon they fell down inside the machine. I rememebr repairing a Mac IIfx and extracting half a dozen floppies from it. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 16:25:32 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:25:32 -0600 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... Hard-sector or soft? (This matters greatly.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 5 16:32:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 14:32:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121205143102.U52691@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... What is the "medal from a 5.25" floppy"? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 16:50:50 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 16:50:50 -0600 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/150957164633?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649damit i lost by 2$ From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 5 16:52:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 14:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <20121205143102.U52691@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121205143102.U52691@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... > > What is the "medal from a 5.25" floppy"? > I think it's Tony-ese for "media" He's a cookie monster. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 5 16:58:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:58:14 -0800 Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <20121205143102.U52691@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121205143102.U52691@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50BFD186.6030802@sydex.com> On 12/05/2012 02:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... > > What is the "medal from a 5.25" floppy"? Look at it again--Tony said "medai". Typo-letter-transposition. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 17:06:37 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:06:37 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 2:50 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150957164633?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649damit > i lost by 2$ I saw those the other day. I felt left out of the whole model thing but, I'm not spending $150 on ebay ones. I bought these the other day http://imgur.com/a/p489Y. Anyone want to tell me what they are ? Seller said they were military from the 60's. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 5 17:13:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 15:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <1354741258.87614.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1354741258.87614.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121205151012.U53112@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > were born in bigger cities have, or at least I have, dined quite > regularly on plaster chips (and slabs!) in our youths. that's the reason for lead based paint From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 17:24:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 17:24:39 -0600 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: i paid that with shipping for my phillips p1000 model witch is prolly the only surviving one of 3 made http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/7944707284/in/photostream/lightbox/ from what i have been able to find out about the system also got a scan of a paper model cut out for the p1100 woulda been nice to have a dec model to go with my phillips model o well On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 5:06 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/5/2012 2:50 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/**150957164633?ssPageName=STRK:** >> MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.**l2649damit >> i lost by 2$ >> > > I saw those the other day. I felt left out of the whole model thing but, > I'm not spending $150 on ebay ones. I bought these the other day > http://imgur.com/a/p489Y. Anyone want to tell me what they are ? Seller > said they were military from the 60's. > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 17:31:15 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:31:15 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BFD943.50502@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 3:24 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i paid that with shipping for my phillips p1000 model witch is prolly the > only surviving one of 3 made > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/7944707284/in/photostream/lightbox/ > from what i have been able to find out about the system also got a scan of > a paper model cut out for the p1100 > woulda been nice to have a dec model to go with my phillips model o well > > I would say they are very collectible. They weren't made to last forever and there probably weren't many made. That's pretty much the definition of collectible. They are cool. I still think reproducing them would be a great project for someone with the right skills and tools. From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 17:50:11 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:50:11 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> I posted this inside another thread but, really it has nothing to with that thread and it should have a life of it's own. I am curious if anyone recognizes what these may be. The seller told me they were military surplus from the 1960's. I guess I could see that. The cpu (or whatever) looks pretty hardened. Maybe ships computers of some sort ? They aren't very big. Only about 3" tall with magnetic tape on the bottom. Here's pics http://imgur.com/a/p489Y From bryan.pope at comcast.net Wed Dec 5 17:59:46 2012 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:59:46 -0500 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> On 12/5/2012 3:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/5/2012 11:54 AM, Richard wrote: >> OK, so this is a request by Sellam to fund Sellam by selling >> unspecified, unknown stuff. Wouldn't it have been better to have a >> functioning VCF West? There hasn't been one since 2007. > > Why hasn't there been one and if Sellam can't deal with it anymore why > doesn't he step aside and let someone else take over ? There has only > been an increase in interest in vintage computers since the last one. > Does Sellam own the rights to the name or something ? Maybe it could > just be called something else and we could get an event out here again. > > *facepalm* Yes, Sellam owns the right to "Vintage Computer Festival". As Sellam stated, this is to get funds for the operation and storage of his vast collection. There is no "unspecified, unknown stuff". He has a big-ass collection that could probably eclipse the sun (and quite a few other stars). All you have to do is tell him whatever you want that is in the realm of vintage computing. Then he will give you a dollar value of what he would like for said items. Now you have a choice of what to do. Accept the price and then you get the vintage computer stuff you want. Decline because you feel it is too much, no problem! Or come back with another offer and he may even accept that! This is probably the best way at what I am sure will be a much fairer price then you can find on ebay for some vintage computer items you have been looking for. Sellam's loss will be your gain! Cheers, Bryan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 18:04:43 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 19:04:43 -0500 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I saw those the other day. I felt left out of the whole model thing but, I'm > not spending $150 on ebay ones. I bought these the other day > http://imgur.com/a/p489Y. Anyone want to tell me what they are ? Seller said > they were military from the 60's. Yes, the thing with the drawers is a pretty standard cabinet for Navy equipment made by Univac in the 1960s. -- Will From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 18:12:59 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:12:59 -0800 Subject: Ebay VAX 11/780 Stockton, CA In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BFE30B.7070008@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 4:04 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I saw those the other day. I felt left out of the whole model thing but, I'm >> not spending $150 on ebay ones. I bought these the other day >> http://imgur.com/a/p489Y. Anyone want to tell me what they are ? Seller said >> they were military from the 60's. > Yes, the thing with the drawers is a pretty standard cabinet for Navy > equipment made by Univac in the 1960s. > > That's what I figured. I made another thread for the question thinking nobody would see it here. Sorry for the duplicate question. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 5 18:26:15 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:26:15 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> On 12/5/12 3:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I posted this inside another thread but, really it has nothing to with that thread and it should have a life of it's own. > > I am curious if anyone recognizes what these may be. The seller told me they were military surplus from the 1960's. I guess I could see that. The cpu (or whatever) looks pretty hardened. Maybe ships > computers of some sort ? > > They aren't very big. Only about 3" tall with magnetic tape on the bottom. > NTDS (AN/USQ-20) http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X184.83 From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 18:40:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:40:47 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50BFE98F.7020206@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 4:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/5/12 3:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> > NTDS (AN/USQ-20) > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X184.83 > > > Neat. Thanks again Al. The CHM entry says: Input and Output: Punched cards, paper tape, CRT My little model looks like a tape drive. It is isn't it ? It's interesting that the Navy still used these actively on ships until the 1990's. I was going to say $500k was a lot of money but, seems like they got enough use out of them. Some interesting info here if anyone is curious : http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/univac-ntds.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 5 19:29:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 17:29:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> > Why hasn't there been one because you haven't organized one yet. > and if Sellam can't deal with it anymore why > doesn't he step aside and let someone else take over ? He has NEVER been in the way of anybody else organizing a classic computer fair. > There has only > been an increase in interest in vintage computers since the last one. > Does Sellam own the rights to the name or something ? Yes, he does own the rights to the name "Vintage Computer Festival > Maybe it could just be called something else and we could get an event > out here again. ABSOLUTELY! When will your event be? Sign me up! From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 19:40:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:40:16 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50BFF780.2010004@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 5:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ABSOLUTELY! > When will your event be? Sign me up! You going to send me, someone you don't even know, your registration fee to have a booth ? With no track record or connection to the VCF ? I'll do it if people start sending me money. Unfortunately you may be the only one willing to take that leap of fate. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 5 20:17:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 18:17:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BFF780.2010004@gmail.com> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> <50BFF780.2010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121205181409.Q56598@shell.lmi.net> > > ABSOLUTELY! > > When will your event be? Sign me up! On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, mc68010 wrote: > You going to send me, someone you don't even know, your registration fee > to have a booth ? With no track record or connection to the VCF ? I'll > do it if people start sending me money. Unfortunately you may be the > only one willing to take that leap of fate. Sellam let me sign up by email, and pay on the day of the event! Any reason why we should NOT trust you? If you can put the event together, the bay area (at least) is ready and anxious for another classic computer event. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 20:27:47 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:27:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: <008401cdd318$3a795b40$af6c11c0$@yahoo.com> References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <008401cdd318$3a795b40$af6c11c0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Joe wrote: > I did a search for the CM-3455 scart converter. Not a lot came up. As I > don't have an Apple IIgs monitor (is it wrong to be using a commodore > monitor on composite on my apple?), I would be nice to have a VGA/LCD > monitor for it. Where did you find it? They come up on eBay from time to time. These folks have them new: http://www.converters.tv/products/pal_to_vga/100.html It looks like it's been superceded by another unit, which I have no experience with. > Even better if it works with some of my other old junk (CGA/MDA PC's). The SCART connector accepts RGB or composite signals. So, CGA yes, MDA probably not. -- From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 20:33:14 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:33:14 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <20121205181409.Q56598@shell.lmi.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> <50BFF780.2010004@gmail.com> <20121205181409.Q56598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50C003EA.9030101@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 6:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Sellam let me sign up by email, and pay on the day of the event! > > Any reason why we should NOT trust you? > > > If you can put the event together, the bay area (at least) is ready and > anxious for another classic computer event. > > It honestly is something that should be done by a committee or group. That way you avoid the 5 year breaks because one person is having personal problems and doesn't have the time for it. How does the east coast manage to make it happen every year ? I'd love to see a CHM sponsored event and I think we should all pressure Al into making it happen. Doesn't the CHM have conference space ? I couldn't think if a better place to have it. How about calling it the Computer History Museum's Vintage Computer Faire . We just need someone to steal Al's scanner so, he has more free time. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 20:49:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:49:34 -0500 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <20121205181409.Q56598@shell.lmi.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> <50BFF780.2010004@gmail.com> <20121205181409.Q56598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2012, at 21:17, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> ABSOLUTELY! >>> When will your event be? Sign me up! > > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> You going to send me, someone you don't even know, your registration fee >> to have a booth ? With no track record or connection to the VCF ? I'll >> do it if people start sending me money. Unfortunately you may be the >> only one willing to take that leap of fate. > > Sellam let me sign up by email, and pay on the day of the event! VCF East is even more relaxed: it's a pay-at-the-door kind of thing. Of course, the InfoAge museum which hosts it may provide some financial backing; I don't know (but Evan probably does). - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 5 21:04:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 20:04:48 -0700 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <50BFDFF2.4030903 at comcast.net>, Bryan Pope writes: > There is no "unspecified, unknown stuff". He has a big-ass collection > [...] Actually, the larger the collection, the more important it is to see a list of what's in it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 5 21:39:34 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 22:39:34 -0500 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> On 12/5/2012 3:15 AM, TeoZ wrote: > Are these any good? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Video-converter-to-replace-Amiga-1200-2000-RGB-monitor-to-connect-to-LCD-CRT-/181005046536 > > I was searching ebay for Amiga 2000 and came across it, seems cheap enough if it works ok. > If I don't have this exact same thing, I have one very similar from ebay. Despite messing around with it for quite some time, I wasn't able to find any mode/setting/configuration that would be compatible with the output from my A500. It was somewhat disappointing. Keith From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 21:41:28 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:41:28 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50C013E8.1080303@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 7:04 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <50BFDFF2.4030903 at comcast.net>, > Bryan Pope writes: > >> There is no "unspecified, unknown stuff". He has a big-ass collection >> [...] > Actually, the larger the collection, the more important it is to see a > list of what's in it. Is the VCF Archive actually a collection people can access or just Sellam's personal collection ? I am not trying to start things and I can tell there are strong feelings on both sides from emails and replies I am getting. What exactly is the VCF Archive and why should we support it ? That is all I am asking. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Dec 5 22:47:21 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 22:47:21 -0600 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50C013E8.1080303@gmail.com> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <50C013E8.1080303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C02359.7080503@vaxen.net> On 12/5/12 9:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/5/2012 7:04 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article <50BFDFF2.4030903 at comcast.net>, >> Bryan Pope writes: >> >>> There is no "unspecified, unknown stuff". He has a big-ass collection >>> [...] >> Actually, the larger the collection, the more important it is to see a >> list of what's in it. > > Is the VCF Archive actually a collection people can access or just > Sellam's personal collection ? I am not trying to start things and I can > tell there are strong feelings on both sides from emails and replies I > am getting. What exactly is the VCF Archive and why should we support it? Do you really not get it? Sellam is not soliciting donations. He's selling hardware. Period. Doc From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Dec 5 23:01:20 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 21:01:20 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50C02359.7080503@vaxen.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <50C013E8.1080303@gmail.com> <50C02359.7080503@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50C026A0.9040509@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 8:47 PM, Doc wrote: > > Do you really not get it? > > Sellam is not soliciting donations. He's selling hardware. Period. > I guess I didn't. I thought by some of the comments that some people were looking to offer donations. This is Sellam's private collection he is just selling for money. Got it. I understand now. Any of this come out of ACCRC by chance ? If it was transferred from one non profit to another he can actually go to jail for this. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Dec 5 23:09:20 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 21:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50C026A0.9040509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1354770560.86568.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 12/5/12, mc68010 wrote: > I guess I didn't. I thought by some of the comments that > some people were looking to offer donations. This is > Sellam's private collection he is just selling for money. > Got it. I understand now. Any of this come out of ACCRC by > chance ? If it was transferred from one non profit to > another he can actually go to jail for this. Assuming the material sold was purchased, or was donated without restrictions, how can it be illegal to sell it to to raise funds to support the continued operation of the nonprofit? There's nothing going on here to suggest Sellam is looking to take the proceeds out for personal use. What I'm not sure of is the relationship between VCF as a nonprofit and Vintagetech as a profit-making enterprise. One would hope that his books are in order with respect to what belongs to which entity. --Bill From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 00:02:58 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 22:02:58 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <1354770560.86568.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1354770560.86568.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50C03512.5020401@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 9:09 PM, William Maddox wrote: > Assuming the material sold was purchased, or was donated without > restrictions, how can it be illegal to sell it to to raise funds to > support the continued operation of the nonprofit? There's nothing > going on here to suggest Sellam is looking to take the proceeds out > for personal use. What I'm not sure of is the relationship between VCF > as a nonprofit and Vintagetech as a profit-making enterprise. One > would hope that his books are in order with respect to what belongs to > which entity. --Bill The gear I know about was donated to another 501c, ACCRC, and then transferred to Sellam's 501c. Until Sellam speaks up and says where the money from these sales goes this conjecture is all pointless anyway. If it is just to him the "send an email and we'll tell you if we have it and how much me want" is pretty telling. If not and this goes to the 501c then just post a list of gear and what you want. From PETER at beyondthepale.ie Wed Dec 5 16:40:37 2012 From: PETER at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 22:40:37 +0000 (WET) Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 05 Dec 2012 21:48:20 +0000 (GMT)" References: Message-ID: <01ONG0Q26EHG005G5R@beyondthepale.ie> Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure, these are criteria that affect the value for most 'collectables' > (Acutallly, isn't just about anything collactable?). But they don't, > IMHO, expalin why the Apple 1 gets such a high price > Perhaps it is the success of the Apple II that causes the effect? This might generate a comparatively large amount of interest in the machine that came before it and just happens to be much rarer. Apple (from the Mac generation on at least) also seems to generate a lot of passionate interest among its followers as well as a fair proportion of people with more money than sense. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 5 18:27:00 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:27:00 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 and Altair set new records at auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50BFE654.6060608@jwsss.com> On 12/5/2012 1:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Seems ot make very littile difference. Most collectors don't care, they would > never turn it on anyway. Hackers don't care eitehr, they can fix it. > >> > - Boxed > Yes, for some odd reaso nhis is important. I have never understood why, > other than presuambly ahving the machien and box is less common than > having the machine, so a boxed one is rarer. > >> > - With manuals or other documentation of value having a complete artifact is important. It is accepted practice to require the original packing, and a statement as to whether it is opened or not (Irrelevant here, but important in cases of a lot of toys, and "collectibles") This would include any documentation that would have come with the original shipment. It is likely that technical documents, etc., might be classified differently for collection purposes as a separate item from the item itself. Such as the original prototype, development notes, and other things that would make an article stand out from the normal stream. Also provenance as to ownership by someone noted and associated with the item. such as if Wozniak or Jobs had a special pet Apple 1, and office / development notes. I suspect with the hype around the Apple 1 it would improve the value, but such things may decrease the value in other cases. Like an autographed book with a generic signature from the author is more valuable than one with a personalized sentiment, unless the person so addressed is useful too. jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 5 18:37:39 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:37:39 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50BFE8D3.5060903@jwsss.com> On 12/5/2012 3:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I posted this inside another thread but, really it has nothing to with > that thread and it should have a life of it's own. > > I am curious if anyone recognizes what these may be. The seller told > me they were military surplus from the 1960's. I guess I could see > that. The cpu (or whatever) looks pretty hardened. Maybe ships > computers of some sort ? > > They aren't very big. Only about 3" tall with magnetic tape on the > bottom. > > Here's pics http://imgur.com/a/p489Y > > This could be late 70's or early 80's style mini. Reel to Reel didn't go out in the 60's, and the rack arrangement on the front of the other box looks late than anything I'e seen on a 60's style system. Looks more like it could even be into the smaller disk drive peripheral age. What evidence makes you think it is 60's. I'm guessing the reel to reel drive, but you may know where they came from and how old they are. The magnet tape on the bottom gets me though, makes no sense. If I were pressed, it could be any of a number of early tape ATL's with backing storage. Storage TEch went down the tubes with something like this, and were still trying to sell reel to reel then. The concept really took off with square tapes, but Storage Tech was too early, and the product didn't work either. Should have stuck to making tape drives. jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 5 18:46:57 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:46:57 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50BFEB01.2020706@jwsss.com> On 12/5/2012 4:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/5/12 3:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I posted this inside another thread but, really it has nothing to >> with that thread and it should have a life of it's own. >> >> I am curious if anyone recognizes what these may be. The seller told >> me they were military surplus from the 1960's. I guess I could see >> that. The cpu (or whatever) looks pretty hardened. Maybe ships >> computers of some sort ? >> >> They aren't very big. Only about 3" tall with magnetic tape on the >> bottom. >> > NTDS (AN/USQ-20) > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X184.83 good catch. I see from the actual photo that what appears to be something that could take peripherals, probably are trays for large components. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 5 20:23:50 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:23:50 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50C001B6.7050605@jwsss.com> On 12/5/2012 5:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Why hasn't there been one > because you haven't organized one yet. > >> and if Sellam can't deal with it anymore why >> doesn't he step aside and let someone else take over ? > He has NEVER been in the way of anybody else organizing a classic computer > fair. > >> There has only >> been an increase in interest in vintage computers since the last one. >> Does Sellam own the rights to the name or something ? > Yes, he does own the rights to the name "Vintage Computer Festival > >> Maybe it could just be called something else and we could get an event >> out here again. > ABSOLUTELY! > When will your event be? Sign me up! > > You do know that the person(s) putting on such an event will have to probably front quite a bit of expenses, and probably work their butts off for probably 6 months to put an event together. I do an Christmas annual company alumni meeting w/o anything than guaranteeing that 150 drinkers will show up, find a venue everyone likes, and that takes quite a bit of work. I start planning in the week after the event if I have to move for the next years event. Then 6 months in advance to be sure things will work when it happens. Add to that that the organizer will have to do much more to accomodate a VCF and I respect Sellam for what he has done, and that he has taken a breather from it. Jim From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 01:53:03 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 01:53:03 -0600 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50BFEB01.2020706@jwsss.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> <50BFEB01.2020706@jwsss.com> Message-ID: looks like thats a vacume tape drive On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:46 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 12/5/2012 4:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 12/5/12 3:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> I posted this inside another thread but, really it has nothing to with >>> that thread and it should have a life of it's own. >>> >>> I am curious if anyone recognizes what these may be. The seller told me >>> they were military surplus from the 1960's. I guess I could see that. The >>> cpu (or whatever) looks pretty hardened. Maybe ships >>> computers of some sort ? >>> >>> They aren't very big. Only about 3" tall with magnetic tape on the >>> bottom. >>> >>> NTDS (AN/USQ-20) >> >> http://www.computerhistory.**org/collections/accession/**X184.83 >> > good catch. I see from the actual photo that what appears to be something > that could take peripherals, probably are trays for large components. > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 04:13:01 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 08:13:01 -0200 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <008401cdd318$3a795b40$af6c11c0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: It (should) work with MDA, but remember the output is digital, so you have to configure the input on the device... Enviado pelo meu telemovel Em 06/12/2012, ?s 00:27, Steven Hirsch escreveu: > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Joe wrote: > >> I did a search for the CM-3455 scart converter. Not a lot came up. As I >> don't have an Apple IIgs monitor (is it wrong to be using a commodore >> monitor on composite on my apple?), I would be nice to have a VGA/LCD >> monitor for it. Where did you find it? > > They come up on eBay from time to time. These folks have them new: > > http://www.converters.tv/products/pal_to_vga/100.html > > It looks like it's been superceded by another unit, which I have no experience with. > >> Even better if it works with some of my other old junk (CGA/MDA PC's). > > The SCART connector accepts RGB or composite signals. So, CGA yes, MDA probably not. > > > > -- > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Dec 6 05:40:13 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 11:40:13 -0000 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50BFE8D3.5060903@jwsss.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> <50BFE8D3.5060903@jwsss.com> Message-ID: There's noting to give you an idea of scale. However they could be film miniatures from one of many 60/70's films or TV shows. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? com ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s Sent: 06 December 2012 00:38 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? On 12/5/2012 3:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I posted this inside another thread but, really it has nothing to with > that thread and it should have a life of it's own. > > I am curious if anyone recognizes what these may be. The seller told > me they were military surplus from the 1960's. I guess I could see > that. The cpu (or whatever) looks pretty hardened. Maybe ships > computers of some sort ? > > They aren't very big. Only about 3" tall with magnetic tape on the > bottom. > > Here's pics http://imgur.com/a/p489Y > > This could be late 70's or early 80's style mini. Reel to Reel didn't go out in the 60's, and the rack arrangement on the front of the other box looks late than anything I'e seen on a 60's style system. Looks more like it could even be into the smaller disk drive peripheral age. What evidence makes you think it is 60's. I'm guessing the reel to reel drive, but you may know where they came from and how old they are. The magnet tape on the bottom gets me though, makes no sense. If I were pressed, it could be any of a number of early tape ATL's with backing storage. Storage TEch went down the tubes with something like this, and were still trying to sell reel to reel then. The concept really took off with square tapes, but Storage Tech was too early, and the product didn't work either. Should have stuck to making tape drives. jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 07:05:11 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 08:05:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 12/5/2012 3:15 AM, TeoZ wrote: >> Are these any good? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Video-converter-to-replace-Amiga-1200-2000-RGB-monitor-to-connect-to-LCD-CRT-/181005046536 >> >> I was searching ebay for Amiga 2000 and came across it, seems cheap enough >> if it works ok. >> > > If I don't have this exact same thing, I have one very similar from ebay. > Despite messing around with it for quite some time, I wasn't able to find any > mode/setting/configuration that would be compatible with the output from my > A500. Keith, I think I know what your issue may have been. Those units went through a bunch of production changes. Some can handle separated H + V sync and some require composite. Thinking back to when I had mine connected to the Amiga, I did have to put together a small circuit to combine H + V. See: http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html Worked like a champ. -- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 6 07:58:27 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 05:58:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50C03512.5020401@gmail.com> References: <1354770560.86568.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50C03512.5020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/5/2012 9:09 PM, William Maddox wrote: >> Assuming the material sold was purchased, or was donated without >> restrictions, how can it be illegal to sell it to to raise funds to support >> the continued operation of the nonprofit? There's nothing going on here to >> suggest Sellam is looking to take the proceeds out for personal use. What >> I'm not sure of is the relationship between VCF as a nonprofit and >> Vintagetech as a profit-making enterprise. One would hope that his books >> are in order with respect to what belongs to which entity. --Bill > The gear I know about was donated to another 501c, ACCRC, and then > transferred to Sellam's 501c. Until Sellam speaks up and says where the money > from these sales goes this conjecture is all pointless anyway. If it is just > to him the "send an email and we'll tell you if we have it and how much me > want" is pretty telling. If not and this goes to the 501c then just post a > list of gear and what you want. ...and some people stir up shit just because they can. Drop it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 13:06:13 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 11:06:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 5, 12 05:17:06 am Message-ID: <1354820773.33371.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Tony Duell I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... -tony C: Only in the UK (*not* a joke) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 13:09:52 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 11:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <20121205151012.U53112@shell.lmi.net> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1354741258.87614.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121205151012.U53112@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1354820992.50855.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > were born in bigger cities have, or at least I have, dined quite > regularly on plaster chips (and slabs!) in our youths. that's the reason for lead based paint C: So we could eat 'em? Gene yet again exhibiting his world class IQ. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 13:10:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <20121205151012.U53112@shell.lmi.net> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1354741258.87614.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121205151012.U53112@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1354821047.7548.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> oops that was the Fredster. Force of habit. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Dec 6 13:33:34 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:33:34 +0100 Subject: Opus ISA SparcCard In-Reply-To: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1353965455.10599.YahooMailNeo@web164901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1354822414.7133.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-11-26 klockan 13:30 -0800 skrev paul anderson: > Bernd, > > Greetings! I have a mysterious ISA card and after researching, I found an old post from 2007 which contained a conversation you were having regarding an Opus ISA > SparcCard. I'm curious if this is what I currently have. > > Do you happen to know of any online information about getting this working? I was going to recycle it but it seems a shame if it is a bit of history and of unique functionality. > > > Any help is most appreciated and thank you! > > > Paul Anderson > Did your card have the corresponding I/O card ? PS I do want it a little bit at least. DS From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 6 14:05:56 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:05:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <1354820992.50855.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <1354571164.15711.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1354741258.87614.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121205151012.U53112@shell.lmi.net> <1354820992.50855.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Fred Cisin > > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> were born in bigger cities have, or at least I have, dined quite >> regularly on plaster chips (and slabs!) in our youths. > > that's the reason for lead based paint > > C:\DERP> So we could eat 'em? Gene yet again exhibiting his world class IQ. > 1. I could take a mace hit to the back of my head and still have more on the ball than you _ever_ will. 2. Quote properly or don't reply. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 6 13:59:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 19:59:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Dec 5, 12 04:25:32 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... > > Hard-sector or soft? (This matters greatly.) Soft sectored. Probably formatted 40 cylinders, 2 heads, double density. I am not going to waste hard sectored floppy like that, they are not easy to find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 6 14:01:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 20:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: <20121205143102.U52691@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 5, 12 02:32:27 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... > > What is the "medal from a 5.25" floppy"? 'medai' is a trasnposition cipher for media. 'medal' is the round, valuable part, presumably, and is thus much the same thing. -tony From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Dec 6 14:46:33 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 20:46:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Eating classic media (was Re: Plastic Repair) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... >> >> Hard-sector or soft? (This matters greatly.) > > Soft sectored. Probably formatted 40 cylinders, 2 heads, double density. > I am not going to waste hard sectored floppy like that, they are not easy > to find. Did you cut it up first? I can't imagine it's easy to chew this sort of cookie... Any 'fun' side-effects? Alexey From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 6 14:55:36 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... >> >> Hard-sector or soft? (This matters greatly.) > > Soft sectored. Probably formatted 40 cylinders, 2 heads, double density. > I am not going to waste hard sectored floppy like that, they are not easy > to find. Sure they are. Just call Athana. Now cheap? Not a chance. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 14:49:32 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 18:49:32 -0200 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: Why combine H+V if you have composite sync? Did you burned your hybrid circuit inside the amiga?! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 11:05 AM Subject: Re: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters > On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> On 12/5/2012 3:15 AM, TeoZ wrote: >>> Are these any good? >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Video-converter-to-replace-Amiga-1200-2000-RGB-monitor-to-connect-to-LCD-CRT-/181005046536 >>> >>> I was searching ebay for Amiga 2000 and came across it, seems cheap >>> enough if it works ok. >>> >> >> If I don't have this exact same thing, I have one very similar from ebay. >> Despite messing around with it for quite some time, I wasn't able to find >> any mode/setting/configuration that would be compatible with the output >> from my A500. > > Keith, > > I think I know what your issue may have been. Those units went through a > bunch of production changes. Some can handle separated H + V sync and > some require composite. Thinking back to when I had mine connected to the > Amiga, I did have to put together a small circuit to combine H + V. > > See: > > http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html > > Worked like a champ. > > > > -- > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 6 16:07:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 15:07:15 -0700 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50C001B6.7050605@jwsss.com> References: <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> <50BFA812.6000401@gmail.com> <50BFDFF2.4030903@comcast.net> <20121205172643.F56598@shell.lmi.net> <50C001B6.7050605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <50C001B6.7050605 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > You do know that the person(s) putting on such an event will have to > probably front quite a bit of expenses, and probably work their butts > off for probably 6 months to put an event together. Having put together events myself, alone, I totally understand how much work is involved. I also understand getting burned out and needing to take a breather. However, when you decide to take a step back and take a rest, you need to hand the event off to someone else instead of stopping the event. What has seemed to have happened with VCF is that it just stopped, instead of being shepherded to someone else. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 18:01:21 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 16:01:21 -0800 Subject: Disk drive teardown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > It's too late now to tell that mad Ozzie Dave not to tear it down. But > here's the video for those so inclined (and by the way, Teardown Tuesday is > great fun each and every week!) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBjoWMA5d84 Were these drives actually filled with halon? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 6 18:40:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 16:40:27 -0800 Subject: Disk drive teardown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C13AFB.3070406@sydex.com> On 12/06/2012 04:01 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Mark Kahrs wrote: >> It's too late now to tell that mad Ozzie Dave not to tear it down. But >> here's the video for those so inclined (and by the way, Teardown Tuesday is >> great fun each and every week!) >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBjoWMA5d84 > > Were these drives actually filled with halon? That doesn't make much sense. Helium (thermal conductivity) or nitrogen or even sulfur hexafluoride are probably better choices. Halon isn't particularly conductive thermally. I still have a Halon 1211 fire extinguisher in my shop, ready to be used in case of fire. --Chuck From slandon110 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 20:01:29 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:01:29 -0500 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store Message-ID: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> Ive opened an Etsy store for all the vintage apple and computer items I have for sale. Makes it easier that way, Everyone can shop at their leisure. If you dont like the price you see just let me know. Heres the link to the store. Ill be continually adding items, and hope to have at least 100 items listed by the weekend http://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageAppleNMore Thanks Steve From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 20:13:15 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 18:13:15 -0800 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> On 12/6/2012 6:01 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > Ive opened an Etsy store for all the vintage apple and computer items > I have for sale. Makes it easier that way, Everyone can shop at > their leisure. If you dont like the price you see just let me know. > > Heres the link to the store. Ill be continually adding items, and > hope to have at least 100 items listed by the weekend > > http://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageAppleNMore > > I am curious why Etsy instead of the obvious others ? I wonder how this transition from handmade arts and crafts to another amazon.com is going to play out for them. From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 20:24:20 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 18:24:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1354847060.16028.YahooMailNeo@web121302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Can't you people take a decent picture?? Looking at refections doesn't cut it. I just replied to this because I can't stand it.? Get an umbrella and a tent of cards and try to do better.? I have little idea of what I'm supposed to be looking at. Regards, Jim ________________________________ From: Steven Landon To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:01 PM Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store Ive opened an Etsy store for all the vintage apple and computer items I have for sale.? Makes it easier that way,? Everyone can shop at their leisure.? If you dont like the price you see just let me know. Heres the link to the store.? Ill be continually adding items,? and hope to have at least 100 items listed by the weekend http://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageAppleNMore Thanks Steve From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Dec 6 20:40:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 18:40:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/6/2012 6:01 PM, Steven Landon wrote: >> Ive opened an Etsy store for all the vintage apple and computer items I >> have for sale. Makes it easier that way, Everyone can shop at their >> leisure. If you dont like the price you see just let me know. >> >> Heres the link to the store. Ill be continually adding items, and hope to >> have at least 100 items listed by the weekend >> >> http://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageAppleNMore >> > I am curious why Etsy instead of the obvious others ? I wonder how this > transition from handmade arts and crafts to another amazon.com is going to > play out for them. Maybe it's easier and/or cheaper to use Etsy if you're not auctioning things. I'll probably take a look at it for some of my less easier-to-move items. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 21:00:54 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 19:00:54 -0800 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great deal. Box looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought you the Digicomp and Digicomp 2. I have no room to start collecting toys so, I'll leave it for someone here. http://www.etsy.com/listing/115323459/vintage-think-a-dot-game-1965-can?ref=sr_gallery_11&ga_search_query=computer&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_ship_to=US&ga_search_type=vintage From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 6 21:43:07 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 19:43:07 -0800 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> There's some fan-fold paper tape up on eBay. I don't see this too often so thought I'd mention it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/290826776308?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 6 21:54:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 22:54:57 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> On 12/06/2012 10:43 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > There's some fan-fold paper tape up on eBay. I don't see this too often > so thought I'd mention it. > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290826776308?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 Hey, I know that seller, I got a few Tek 500-series scopes from him (including a 661, yum!) several months ago. Nice guy. I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 22:01:37 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:01:37 -0800 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> On 12/6/2012 7:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 6 22:07:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 23:07:34 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave > > Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is > what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 22:17:46 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:17:46 -0800 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50C16DEA.1080103@gmail.com> On 12/6/2012 8:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) -Dave That's what sheets of bubblewrap are for. Putting all that back in a box would probably drive me over the edge. Serious question though is what is that for ? The auction I mean. Is that meant to be split up or meant to feed a certain drive ? It looks very specific like this is the exact amount to stick in one particular thing. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 22:20:07 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 22:20:07 -0600 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great deal. Box > looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought you the > Digicomp and Digicomp 2. I have no room to start collecting toys so, I'll > leave it for someone here. Aaannnd...it's gone (not to me.) It looks like Etsy is trying to cut into eBay's market a bit, allowing a wider range of items as long as they can be sort-of stuffed into the "vintage" category. This competition can't be a bad thing, IMO. It remains to be seen if items there can get anywhere near the exposure ebay offers, though. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 22:27:07 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:27:07 -0800 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50C1701B.9070406@gmail.com> On 12/6/2012 8:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave >> It looks kinda heavy duty too. That might not feed right through everything. It almost looks like cellulose or something. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 6 22:29:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 23:29:07 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16DEA.1080103@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> <50C16DEA.1080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C17093.6060200@neurotica.com> On 12/06/2012 11:17 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/6/2012 8:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) -Dave > That's what sheets of bubblewrap are for. Putting all that back in a > box would probably drive me over the edge. > > Serious question though is what is that for ? The auction I mean. Is > that meant to be split up or meant to feed a certain drive ? It looks > very specific like this is the exact amount to stick in one particular > thing. Well you cut it to length. I have tons (well, many pounds at least) of PDP-8 software on fan-fold paper tape. DEC was big into the fanfold stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 22:31:43 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:31:43 -0800 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> On 12/6/2012 8:20 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great deal. Box >> looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought you the >> Digicomp and Digicomp 2. I have no room to start collecting toys so, I'll >> leave it for someone here. > Aaannnd...it's gone (not to me.) > > It looks like Etsy is trying to cut into eBay's market a bit, allowing > a wider range of items as long as they can be sort-of stuffed into the > "vintage" category. This competition can't be a bad thing, IMO. It > remains to be seen if items there can get anywhere near the exposure > ebay offers, though. I wish people on this list would speak up when they grab stuff talked about on this list. It seems to be a black hole now. People post things and nothing is ever heard about it again. I am sure most of us would be giving you virtual high fives. No reason to hide. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 6 22:32:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 23:32:29 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C1701B.9070406@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> <50C1701B.9070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C1715D.1070705@neurotica.com> On 12/06/2012 11:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. > > It looks kinda heavy duty too. That might not feed right through > everything. It almost looks like cellulose or something. See my last post. This stuff is not at all uncommon in the DEC world. The guy selling it (local to me) had a lot of DEC stuff at one time. (I didn't get any of it, it was gone before my arrival in the area, but he had some AWESOME old Tek stuff, which I am now very happy to have) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 6 22:39:32 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 20:39:32 -0800 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Dec 6, at 8:20 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great >> deal. Box >> looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought >> you the >> Digicomp and Digicomp 2. I have no room to start collecting toys >> so, I'll >> leave it for someone here. > > Aaannnd...it's gone (not to me.) Well, you can still play the online version: http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/kevin_and_abe/48878 Somehow I had missed seeing that game all these years. > It looks like Etsy is trying to cut into eBay's market a bit, allowing > a wider range of items as long as they can be sort-of stuffed into the > "vintage" category. This competition can't be a bad thing, IMO. It > remains to be seen if items there can get anywhere near the exposure > ebay offers, though. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Dec 6 22:48:06 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 20:48:06 -0800 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My last sale on ebay with paypal ate ~15% of the sale price with instant buy paypal's 6% vig and the ebay 9% cut. And you don't know their cut until the end of auction and payment. I'll never sell on that service again. Let them die. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jason T Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 8:20 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great deal. Box > looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought you the > Digicomp and Digicomp 2. I have no room to start collecting toys so, I'll > leave it for someone here. Aaannnd...it's gone (not to me.) It looks like Etsy is trying to cut into eBay's market a bit, allowing a wider range of items as long as they can be sort-of stuffed into the "vintage" category. This competition can't be a bad thing, IMO. It remains to be seen if items there can get anywhere near the exposure ebay offers, though. From slandon110 at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 23:08:41 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:08:41 -0500 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store Message-ID: <50C179D9.8050102@gmail.com> What drew me to it was the .20 cent listing fees.. They only take a 3.5 percent cut of your final value. Pictures are free and you can list as much as you want. The listings last 3 months too which makes it even better. Feel free to chime in your thoughts on my pricing. Im listing a ton of vintage apple. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Dec 7 00:25:11 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 01:25:11 -0500 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50C18BC7.5010008@verizon.net> On 12/6/2012 8:05 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I think I know what your issue may have been. Those units went through > a bunch of production changes. Some can handle separated H + V sync and > some require composite. > Thinking back to when I had mine connected to > the Amiga, I did have to put together a small circuit to combine H + V. You know, I'm pretty sure that I attempted to build the same circuit because of exactly this reason. Something didn't work, and because I was not convinced this was the solution anyways, abandoned the idea and troubleshooting of the circuit. > See: > > http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html > > Worked like a champ. I'm pretty sure that was where I got the schematic originally. Maybe I'll revisit. For what it's worth, I think the lack of an easy solution caused me to roll my own denise-attached video scan converter in an fpga..... that mostly works now but still isn't finished. Thanks, Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Dec 7 00:37:51 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 01:37:51 -0500 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50C18EBF.5000800@verizon.net> On 12/6/2012 3:49 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Why combine H+V if you have composite sync? Did you burned your > hybrid circuit inside the amiga?! Are you talking about pin 10 on the DB23? I'm asking myself the same damn question. Maybe because the db23 to db9 monitor cable I'm using.... they didn't bring out composite sync. But surely I would have realized that I could get a db23 and .......duh. Maybe I didn't see the forest for the trees..... Or maybe I probed pin 10 and there was nothing on it.............I don't remember. Thanks, Keith From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 02:26:04 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 08:26:04 +0000 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C1A81C.7050006@gmail.com> On 07/12/2012 04:20, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great deal. Box >> looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought you the >> Digicomp and Digicomp 2. I have no room to start collecting toys so, I'll >> leave it for someone here. > Aaannnd...it's gone (not to me.) > > It looks like Etsy is trying to cut into eBay's market a bit, allowing > a wider range of items as long as they can be sort-of stuffed into the > "vintage" category. This competition can't be a bad thing, IMO. It > remains to be seen if items there can get anywhere near the exposure > ebay offers, though. It depends on what protection it offers buyers. I must admit I havn't looked but the "Vintage" area of computing is full of scammers and get rich quick merchants. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Dec 7 02:44:00 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 08:44:00 +0000 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C1A81C.7050006@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1A81C.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7 December 2012 08:26, Dave Wade wrote: > > It depends on what protection it offers buyers. I must admit I havn't looked > but the "Vintage" area of computing is full of scammers and get rich quick > merchants. Is this the same Steven Landon whom has been discussed several times on this list and other forums? Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 02:56:34 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 08:56:34 +0000 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1A81C.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C1AF42.3050700@gmail.com> On 07/12/2012 08:44, Rob wrote: > On 7 December 2012 08:26, Dave Wade wrote: >> It depends on what protection it offers buyers. I must admit I havn't looked >> but the "Vintage" area of computing is full of scammers and get rich quick >> merchants. > > Is this the same Steven Landon whom has been discussed several times > on this list and other forums? > > > Rob This wasn't aimed at any individual, merely a comment that if its to compete with E-Bay it needs to get the balance between buyer and vendor protection right. Looking at the T&Cs:- http://www.etsy.com/help/article/479?ref=ft_terms and reading the first paragraph, it looks like I am unlikely to buy anything on there unless I have positive information about the vendor from another source... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 7 03:11:56 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 04:11:56 -0500 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1A81C.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <36EEBF20AB2F4B378E3C6DFB2FCD8FBD@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 3:44 AM Subject: Re: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store > On 7 December 2012 08:26, Dave Wade wrote: >> >> It depends on what protection it offers buyers. I must admit I havn't >> looked >> but the "Vintage" area of computing is full of scammers and get rich >> quick >> merchants. > > > Is this the same Steven Landon whom has been discussed several times > on this list and other forums? > > > Rob Pretty much is. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Dec 7 06:30:43 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 07:30:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave >> >> Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is >> what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! > > That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, > man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) Do you also find sorting dropped boxes of punched cards to be relaxing? :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Dec 7 06:55:54 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121207125554.GQ5050@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Mike Loewen [121207 07:31]: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave > >> > >> Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is > >> what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! > > > > That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, > > man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) > > Do you also find sorting dropped boxes of punched cards to be relaxing? > :-) I do, as long as there was a diagonal line drawn across the top of them before they were dropped. Todd From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 07:06:11 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 08:06:11 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <29B00123-4FD4-4669-93ED-CCC358C0C307@gmail.com> On Dec 7, 2012, at 7:30, Mike Loewen wrote: >> That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, >> man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) > > Do you also find sorting dropped boxes of punched cards to be relaxing? :-) See, the difference is that paper tape doesn't get out of order. Huge difference. I do find untangling knots in yarn to be relaxing, though. It's pretty satisfying to solve a particularly nasty one. I'll never understand how those knots form in the middle of a very regularly-wound ball. - Dave From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 07:11:41 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 08:11:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: <50C18EBF.5000800@verizon.net> References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> <50C18EBF.5000800@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 12/6/2012 3:49 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> Why combine H+V if you have composite sync? Did you burned your >> hybrid circuit inside the amiga?! > > Are you talking about pin 10 on the DB23? I'm asking myself the same damn > question. > > Maybe because the db23 to db9 monitor cable I'm using.... they didn't bring > out composite sync. But surely I would have realized that I could get a db23 > and .......duh. > > Maybe I didn't see the forest for the trees..... > > Or maybe I probed pin 10 and there was nothing on it.............I don't > remember. I think I've lost too many brain cells in the intervening time. I pieced the whole thing back together in my head and realized that I built the sync combiner to interface my Tandy CoCo 3 (which definitely does not have composite sync available on its RGB connector) with the video converter. I still think I remember running the Amiga through the converter, but take that with a grain of salt. This has got my curiousity aroused, though. I some time off coming up and will try that exercise again. Steve -- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 7 07:33:39 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 05:33:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave >> >> Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is >> what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! > > That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, > man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) > You haven't lived until you've had to re-pack a whole 2400 sheet case of tractor feed printer paper. I got this wonderful task when my GE Terminet 300 printer decided that "top of form" was a vague notion that it didn't really pay any attention to. That is until it ran out of paper after hitting the first form feed. :) Taught me to babysit tractor fed printers until a few pages had gone by. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 8 09:11:27 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 10:11:27 -0500 Subject: [N8VEM-S100:1169] S-100 LAVA PCB order pending, please In-Reply-To: <003f01cdca5a$4bbcbc60$e3363520$@YAHOO.COM> References: <003f01cdca5a$4bbcbc60$e3363520$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <00e201cdd556$4c2fb0b0$e48f1210$@YAHOO.COM> Hi There are 18 boards for builders in the wait queue for the S-100 LAVA board. I still need a few more to make a PCB manufacturing order viable. Am trying to avoid selling the excess boards on eBay to recover the project funds so if anyone is interested in joining the S-100 LAVA project please contact me. The S-100 LAVA PCB will be the usual $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch PS, the new S-100 68K CPU board PCB is approaching complete and the new S-100 80286 CPU board is also nearly ready to go. The next PCB reorder will be the S-100 Console IO hopefully early this winter. From: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:42 AM To: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: [N8VEM-S100:1169] S-100 LAVA PCB order pending, please Hi!? John Monahan and I have been working on an SVGA display compatible S-100 board and it is almost ready to go. While it is not SVGA register compatible it does allow for an economical SVGA compatible display for your S-100 system. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20LAVA Some additional discussion here on the vintage-computer.com forum http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30687 A viable PCB manufacturing order is at least 20 orders just to pay for the boards, tooling, shipping, etc. There are approximately 12 ?firm? PCB requests and as soon as this project is viable I will make the manufacturing order. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch PS, if cash and/or paypal is an issue, we can make trades for certain computer parts, electronic components, tools, metals, coins, unused gift cards, shipping materials, scrap, etc.? Please let?s discuss! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 03:09:31 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 03:09:31 -0600 Subject: SGI CHALLENGE and ONYX2 graphics workstation up in winnipeg if anyones hunting for one Message-ID: just stumbled upon these on the local kijiji site i have no room for the stuff http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-computers-SGI-W0QQAdIdZ437960642 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 7 23:51:42 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:51:42 -0800 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: <50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> References: , <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net>,<50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > On 12/5/12 9:56 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > The "VCF Archives" has been talked about here, but it was awhile ago and probably didn't use that exact wording. Here is a picture of a small section of the VCF Archives: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533384722/ > > > > That was when it was in Livermore. It moved to Stockton and from what I've heard, it has to move again. > > VCF, Vintagetech, etc. is all the same thing (Sellam's business). > > I think it's a bit much to ask of someone to guess at what he has. I was there when it was in Livermore > and it was mostly microcomputer related things. > He does have a Nicolet 1080 in a console with the RF front end for a NMR chemicalmachine ( Not the coils ).It would be cool to have someone else that had one that I could share stuff with.Dwight From rickb at bensene.com Fri Dec 7 20:17:35 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:17:35 -0800 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape Message-ID: <011101cdd4ea$2f44a5da$050aa8c0@bensene.com> I prefer sequence numbers punched in columns 72 to 80, along with a line or lines drawn on the top edge of the deck. With sequence numbers, you could use unit record equipment to re-order them. -----Original Message----- From: Todd Goodman [tsg at bonedaddy.net] Received: Friday, 07 Dec 2012, 4:56am To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Subject: Re: Fan Fold paper tape * Mike Loewen [121207 07:31]: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave > >> > >> Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is > >> what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! > > > > That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, > > man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) > > Do you also find sorting dropped boxes of punched cards to be relaxing? > :-) I do, as long as there was a diagonal line drawn across the top of them before they were dropped. Todd From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Dec 7 18:32:23 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 13:32:23 +1300 Subject: My Atari 400 on YouTube Message-ID: Another one of my classic models on YouTube. The Atari 400. http://youtu.be/puZeSzrQFpk Terry Stewart (Tez) From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Dec 7 18:02:07 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 01:02:07 +0100 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C2837F.1050506@update.uu.se> A reminder that Caveat Emptor certainly applies to dealings with Steve Landon. Google his name if you are curious as to why. /P On 12/07/2012 03:01 AM, Steven Landon wrote: > Ive opened an Etsy store for all the vintage apple and computer items > I have for sale. Makes it easier that way, Everyone can shop at > their leisure. If you dont like the price you see just let me know. > > Heres the link to the store. Ill be continually adding items, and > hope to have at least 100 items listed by the weekend > > http://www.etsy.com/shop/VintageAppleNMore > > Thanks > > Steve From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 7 16:38:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 14:38:02 -0800 Subject: Cray Superserver 6400 FS spotted on VC Forum Message-ID: <50C26FCA.8070900@sydex.com> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?34695-Vintage-Cray-Superserver-6400-amp-Compaq-Proliant-6000-server If anyone's interested. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 16:27:45 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 16:27:45 -0600 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C165CB.2090307@sbcglobal.net> <50C16891.9020709@neurotica.com> <50C16A21.702@gmail.com> <50C16B86.8020402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: hahaha owtch man owtch. that stuff looks just like the stuff i have for my heathkit h11 On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 7:33 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 12/06/2012 11:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> I may try to grab this box of paper tape. -Dave >>>> >>> >>> Please grab it tightly. All I can think of looking at those pictures is >>> what it must be like if that all came out of the box. The horror ! >>> >> >> That's been happening to me with big programs since I was in my teens, >> man. I'm used to it. I find the re-folding to be very relaxing. ;) >> >> You haven't lived until you've had to re-pack a whole 2400 sheet case of > tractor feed printer paper. I got this wonderful task when my GE Terminet > 300 printer decided that "top of form" was a vague notion that it didn't > really pay any attention to. > > That is until it ran out of paper after hitting the first form feed. :) > > Taught me to babysit tractor fed printers until a few pages had gone by. :) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll - > Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 7 15:36:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:36:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <29B00123-4FD4-4669-93ED-CCC358C0C307@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Dec 7, 12 08:06:11 am Message-ID: > I do find untangling knots in yarn to be relaxing, though. > It's pretty satisfying to solve a particularly nasty one. > I'll never understand how those knots form in the middle > of a very regularly-wound ball. I have never understood how calbes seem to defy the laws of topology and tie themselves into knots. But prectical experience shows that and set of calbes left lying around will knot themselves together in a ridiculously complicated way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 7 15:16:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:16:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Eating classic media (was Re: Plastic Repair) In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Dec 6, 12 08:46:33 pm Message-ID: > >> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> I once ate the medai from a 5.25" floppy for a bet.... [...] > Did you cut it up first? I can't imagine it's easy to chew this sort of Yes, I rememebr cutting it into small pieces using scissors,rather than trying to bite it apaart./ > cookie... Any 'fun' side-effects?> No. I had a backup of al lthe data on the disk, so nothing was lost. -tony From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 15:49:03 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 13:49:03 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> <50BFEB01.2020706@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50C2644F.5060206@gmail.com> On 12/5/2012 11:53 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > looks like thats a vacume tape drive > > I just got them in the mail today. They went to the trouble of running what looks like actual magnetic tape around the reels and into loops in each window. The computer guts appear to be a small photograph on an actual system glued on. I wonder what these were originally for. There are no markings at all on them. Since none of the info I found online mentions a tape drive for these and the tape drive is way over detailed maybe it was someone trying to sell the Navy a tape drive for these. From rampaginggreenhulk at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 7 15:14:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at YAHOO.COM (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 13:14:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plastic Repair In-Reply-To: References: from "Jason T" at Dec 5, 12 04:25:32 pm Message-ID: <1354914866.1232.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Tony Duell > Hard-sector or soft?? (This matters greatly.) Soft sectored. Probably formatted 40 cylinders, 2 heads, double density. I am not going to waste hard sectored floppy like that, they are not easy to find. -tony C: I think you should focus on nutritional value. You're getting up there in years (like me). From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 11:03:13 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 12:03:13 -0500 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:31 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/6/2012 8:20 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> Ooo There is a Thinkadot on there for $25. Seems like a great deal. Box >>> looks perfect too. They were by ESR the same people that brought you the >>> Digicomp and Digicomp 2. >> >> and Dr. Nim! > I have no room to start collecting toys so, I'll leave it for someone here. >>> >> Aaannnd...it's gone (not to me.) >> > I bought it. Still looking for a DigiComp. > It looks like Etsy is trying to cut into eBay's market a bit, ... >> > > I wish people on this list would speak up when they grab stuff talked > about on this list. It seems to be a black hole now. People post things and > nothing is ever heard about it again. I am sure most of us would be giving > you virtual high fives. No reason to hide. > Not posting about it is not necessarily hiding. Since I don't have any immediate plans to do something interesting with it, I have no reason to believe that anyone would care. Before I post to any list, I do a mental calculation to weigh if that message would be valuable to me if the roles of poster and reader are reversed. For me, hearing that someone picked up a very well defined item to add to their collection is distinctly in the non-news category. If I do a video of it in action one day, I'll post about that. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Dec 7 10:41:34 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:41:34 -0500 Subject: CGA/EGA/YUV to VGA converters In-Reply-To: References: <318FD0BB97D943F0865571CE552CDF78@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50C01376.6000404@verizon.net> <50C18EBF.5000800@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50C21C3E.8050708@verizon.net> On 12/7/2012 8:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I still think I remember running the Amiga through the converter, but > take that with a grain of salt. This has got my curiousity aroused, > though. I some time off coming up and will try that exercise again. Let me know what you come up. Maybe I'll order some DB23 connectors and play around some more too. Thanks, Keith From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Dec 7 09:34:49 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 08:34:49 -0700 Subject: SCSI <-> USB Message-ID: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Hi all, know it sounds weird (but I travel a lot, laptop user on the road). Anyway, does USB-SCSI adapter exist, if yes, are they really worth the money? My laptop doesn't even have PCMCIA slots anymore ... Cheers & thanks From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 13:11:47 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 14:11:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help identifying ICs? Message-ID: I have a sizeable number of Intersil 0.3" 14-pin DIP ICs (plastic package) with a part number "3-200-5" and a 1978 date code. Google turns up about 500 hits - all of them those obnoxious Chinese sites none of who have the chip or any data about them. How do folks work around all the "we find you chip fast, enter RFQ here" web sites? Steve -- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 13:20:22 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 19:20:22 -0000 Subject: 50 Years of the Ferranti Atlas Message-ID: <7252A52E653D49B7A987452F7734A5D3@G4UGMT41> Folks, Not sure if I have missed some posts on this, but yesterday was the 50th Anniversary of switching on the Ferranti Atlas Computer at Manchester University. Some may enjoy the short video here:- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/08/ferranti_atlas_50th_birthday/ http://elearn.cs.man.ac.uk/~atlas/ Enjoy, Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 13:41:33 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 19:41:33 +0000 Subject: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale In-Reply-To: References: , <50BF8ADE.9060906@comcast.net> ,<50BF92D3.1060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1719150207-1354995692-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-675802405-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I don't know what all he has now adays but back 10 years ago or so I was able to see the warehouse. Huge! Both computers, manuals, books, software all large as a library. Very impressive. I assume he does have an inventory but last I read he had over 2000 systems. I remember a shelf of Altairs that I never imagined I'd see ever again. Probably changed since then but there were plenty of most systems one could wish for there. -----Original Message----- From: dwight elvey Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:51:42 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: VCF Archives Fund Raiser Sale > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > On 12/5/12 9:56 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > The "VCF Archives" has been talked about here, but it was awhile ago and probably didn't use that exact wording. Here is a picture of a small section of the VCF Archives: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533384722/ > > > > That was when it was in Livermore. It moved to Stockton and from what I've heard, it has to move again. > > VCF, Vintagetech, etc. is all the same thing (Sellam's business). > > I think it's a bit much to ask of someone to guess at what he has. I was there when it was in Livermore > and it was mostly microcomputer related things. > He does have a Nicolet 1080 in a console with the RF front end for a NMR chemicalmachine ( Not the coils ).It would be cool to have someone else that had one that I could share stuff with.Dwight From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 14:07:12 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 20:07:12 -0000 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <18BDADE9FDFE49E5A4F0BF36CA3F4AFB@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 07 December 2012 21:37 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fan Fold paper tape > > > > I do find untangling knots in yarn to be relaxing, though. > It's pretty > > satisfying to solve a particularly nasty one. I'll never understand > > how those knots form in the middle of a very regularly-wound ball. > > I have never understood how calbes seem to defy the laws of > topology and > tie themselves into knots. But prectical experience shows > that and set > of calbes left lying around will knot themselves together in a > ridiculously complicated way. A topologist recently told me that "tangled" was the normal state. She said the reason was there was basically only one topological conformation that was "untangled", and many that were "tangled" so any tanglabale object will tend to be in a tangled state. > > -tony > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 8 14:11:28 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121208120914.D60299@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I have never understood how cables seem to defy the laws of topology and > tie themselves into knots. But prectical experience shows that and set > of calbes left lying around will knot themselves together in a > ridiculously complicated way. It's a mating activity. Notice that the population of IEC cables is exponentially increasing. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 8 14:20:50 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 12:20:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Atari 400 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > Another one of my classic models on YouTube. The Atari 400. > http://youtu.be/puZeSzrQFpk > Terry, do yo have an 800 or newer you're going to do a video with? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 14:34:49 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 12:34:49 -0800 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C3A469.40603@gmail.com> On 12/7/2012 9:03 AM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > I wish people on this list would speak up when they grab stuff talked > about on this list. It seems to be a black hole now. People post > things and nothing is ever heard about it again. I am sure most of us > would be giving you virtual high fives. No reason to hide. > Not posting about it is not necessarily hiding. Since I don't have any > immediate plans > to do something interesting with it, I have no reason to believe that > anyone would care. > Before I post to any list, I do a mental calculation to weigh if that > message would be > valuable to me if the roles of poster and reader are reversed. For me, > hearing that > someone picked up a very well defined item to add to their collection is > distinctly > in the non-news category. If I do a video of it in action one day, I'll > post about that. No worries. It was just a general observation not a specific one. I always wonder who ends up getting what. See some really cool old systems roll through here and always wonder who got them. Of course, it's not really any of my business and if people want to keep it private I totally understand. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 14:51:36 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 12:51:36 -0800 Subject: SCSI <-> USB In-Reply-To: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2012 12:36 PM, "emanuel stiebler" wrote: > > Hi all, > know it sounds weird (but I travel a lot, laptop user on the road). > Anyway, does USB-SCSI adapter exist, if yes, are they really worth the money? > They used to exist. I don't know if anyone makes one as a current product. I doubt there would be enough demand to support a current product. http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/usb_scsi/usb2xchange/ From shumaker at att.net Sat Dec 8 15:00:47 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 16:00:47 -0500 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <18BDADE9FDFE49E5A4F0BF36CA3F4AFB@G4UGMT41> References: <18BDADE9FDFE49E5A4F0BF36CA3F4AFB@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <50C3AA7F.8030007@att.net> On 12/8/2012 3:07 PM, Dave wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell >> Sent: 07 December 2012 21:37 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Fan Fold paper tape >> >> >> >>> I do find untangling knots in yarn to be relaxing, though. >>> >> It's pretty >> >>> satisfying to solve a particularly nasty one. I'll never understand >>> how those knots form in the middle of a very regularly-wound ball. >>> >> I have never understood how calbes seem to defy the laws of >> topology and >> tie themselves into knots. But prectical experience shows >> that and set >> of calbes left lying around will knot themselves together in a >> ridiculously complicated way. >> > A topologist recently told me that "tangled" was the normal state. She said > the reason was there was basically only one topological conformation that > was "untangled", and many that were "tangled" so any tanglabale object will > tend to be in a tangled state. > > > >> -tony >> >> > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > *that* hurts my head to think about.... cable racks are an unnatural state.... s2 From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 15:22:50 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:22:50 +0100 Subject: SCSI <-> USB In-Reply-To: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 7 dec. 2012, at 16:34, emanuel stiebler wrote: > does USB-SCSI adapter exist, if yes, are they really worth the money? Yes, they exist. I found one on eBay just now for $40 (search for "USB SCSI"). Whether they are worth the money depends on what you consider throwaway money for a little gamble. Applications are somewhat limited, though and since they date back to the late nineties, OS support and driver availability may be issues to wrestle with. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 15:27:25 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 21:27:25 -0000 Subject: Fan Fold paper tape In-Reply-To: <50C3AA7F.8030007@att.net> Message-ID: <6CD926D5472540BD879AA74C38D792C3@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: 08 December 2012 21:01 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fan Fold paper tape > > > On 12/8/2012 3:07 PM, Dave wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > >> Sent: 07 December 2012 21:37 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: Fan Fold paper tape > >> > >> > >> > >>> I do find untangling knots in yarn to be relaxing, though. > >>> > >> It's pretty > >> > >>> satisfying to solve a particularly nasty one. I'll never > understand > >>> how those knots form in the middle of a very regularly-wound ball. > >>> > >> I have never understood how calbes seem to defy the laws > of topology > >> and tie themselves into knots. But prectical experience shows > >> that and set > >> of calbes left lying around will knot themselves together in a > >> ridiculously complicated way. > >> > > A topologist recently told me that "tangled" was the normal > state. She > > said the reason was there was basically only one topological > > conformation that was "untangled", and many that were > "tangled" so any > > tanglabale object will tend to be in a tangled state. > > > > > > > >> -tony > >> > >> > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > > > *that* hurts my head to think about.... cable racks are an > unnatural > state.... > That depends. TIDY cable racks are in an unatural state. Untidy is normal and expected.... > > s2 > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Dec 8 15:30:03 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 10:30:03 +1300 Subject: My Atari 400 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Terry, do yo have an 800 or newer you're going to do a video with? I do have a 800XL and it will be the subject of a video at some stage. I'm working through my collection according to the order I've listed them on my collection page so the next on the list is the Osborne 1 (-: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm I don't have an Atari 800 though. I'd love one but they are uber-rare here in New Zealand. I've never seen one for sale here. Terry (Tez) From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Dec 8 16:11:15 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 23:11:15 +0100 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C3BB03.8030108@update.uu.se> On 12/07/2012 06:03 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > > I bought it. Still looking for a DigiComp. Unless you want the original thing. You can, since a few days ago, but a reproduction: http://digi-compii.com/ Me, I'm hoping it will come down in price. /P From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 8 17:45:47 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 15:45:47 -0800 Subject: SCSI <-> USB In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: At 10:22 PM +0100 12/8/12, Joost van de Griek wrote: >On 7 dec. 2012, at 16:34, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> does USB-SCSI adapter exist, if yes, are they really worth the money? > >Yes, they exist. I found one on eBay just now for $40 (search for "USB SCSI"). > >Whether they are worth the money depends on what you consider >throwaway money for a little gamble. > >Applications are somewhat limited, though and since they date back >to the late nineties, OS support and driver availability may be >issues to wrestle with. I find myself wondering if VueScan works with them. I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, useless for most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 18:34:51 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 18:34:51 -0600 Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: find a set of old data books and manualy search? mine are sitting in storage atm or i would take a look for you date from right around then... On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have a sizeable number of Intersil 0.3" 14-pin DIP ICs (plastic package) > with a part number "3-200-5" and a 1978 date code. > > Google turns up about 500 hits - all of them those obnoxious Chinese sites > none of who have the chip or any data about them. > > How do folks work around all the "we find you chip fast, enter RFQ here" > web sites? > > Steve > > > -- > > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:18:58 2012 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 13:18:58 -0500 Subject: Disk drive teardown Message-ID: It's too late now to tell that mad Ozzie Dave not to tear it down. But here's the video for those so inclined (and by the way, Teardown Tuesday is great fun each and every week!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBjoWMA5d84 Be sure and lookout for the Official Australian Safety boots. From steve at tronola.com Thu Dec 6 20:36:05 2012 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:36:05 -0500 Subject: In the market for hard disk drive for a PDP-8/m Message-ID: <201212070236.qB72aDsq098339@billy.ezwind.net> Hi Folks, I have been making good progress restoring a PDP-8/m and would like to buy a vintage hard drive and controller for it. Anyone know where I might find those? An RK05 or Diablo-31 drive would be nice. Will also need an RK8E controller board set. Have had some near misses: A Diablo-31 was up on eBay but it turns out that it's missing a head. Found an RK05 listed for sale on a fellow's site. After I agreed to buy it, haven't been able to get a reply, though. Located the controller listed for sale at another company site. The phone system takes messages but they haven't been returned (so far). Email bounces. Hmmm. Please let me know if you know of any possibilities. Thanks, Steve steve at tronola.com http://www.tronola.com/ From urbanowicz at gmx.net Sat Dec 8 14:17:05 2012 From: urbanowicz at gmx.net (A.U.) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 21:17:05 +0100 Subject: IBM 5151 green phosphor monitors for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C3A041.5090400@gmx.net> Hello Sellam Ismail, I know it is a very old post. But maybe you still have old IBM monitors for sale? I'm interested about 5151 or 5153 models. best regards, Andrzej From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sat Dec 8 19:05:36 2012 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 18:05:36 -0700 Subject: SCSI <-> USB References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <37F5CE8D4D5D489DBC87C01E4969C158@RANGER1> I have and use a RATOC System U2SCXU (usb-hd50). With a couple other adaptors (hd50 gender changer, hd50-hd68) I usually connect to a SLR5 tape drive for tape reading and on occation, also a DAT24 drive (dds3). www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm I use Cygwin with the commands "mt" for tape control and "dd" to read with. Keven Miller From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sat Dec 8 19:06:22 2012 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 18:06:22 -0700 Subject: SCSI <-> USB References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I have and use a RATOC System U2SCXU (usb-hd50). With a couple other adaptors (hd50 gender changer, hd50-hd68) I usually connect to a SLR5 tape drive for tape reading and on occasion, also a DAT24 drive (dds3). www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm I use Cygwin with the commands "mt" for tape control and "dd" to read with. Keven Miller From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 8 20:15:04 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:15:04 -0800 Subject: SCSI <-> USB In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50C3F428.8030107@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/12 5:06 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) wrote: > www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm > well, that's interesting... do you have any pre-HPIB FOS tapes? work on a simulator is stalled because we've only been able to find FOS tapes for series 40 and newer. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 20:47:42 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 21:47:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > find a set of old data books and manualy search? mine are sitting in > storage atm or i would take a look for you date from right around then... I don't have a 1978 vintage Intersil data book, unfortunately, or I'd be delighted to. > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I have a sizeable number of Intersil 0.3" 14-pin DIP ICs (plastic package) >> with a part number "3-200-5" and a 1978 date code. >> >> Google turns up about 500 hits - all of them those obnoxious Chinese sites >> none of who have the chip or any data about them. >> >> How do folks work around all the "we find you chip fast, enter RFQ here" >> web sites? -- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 8 21:33:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 19:33:17 -0800 Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C4067D.20501@sydex.com> On 12/08/2012 11:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have a sizeable number of Intersil 0.3" 14-pin DIP ICs (plastic > package) with a part number "3-200-5" and a 1978 date code. > > Google turns up about 500 hits - all of them those obnoxious Chinese > sites none of who have the chip or any data about them. > > How do folks work around all the "we find you chip fast, enter RFQ here" > web sites? A little google-fu gets this short-form datasheet: HI3-200-5 Harris Semiconductor Search: HI3-200-5 Dual SPST Nrm-Cls (Logic Level 0) Ana SW Sw. Volt P-P Max.(V)=30 Analog Sw. Cur. P-P Max.=30m r(DS)on (Ohms)=100 @I(S) (test) (A)=1.0m @Vd (test) (V)=10 t(on) Max. (s) Turn-On Time=500n Control Logic Level Low (V)=0.8 Control Logic Level High (V)=2.4 Features=Norm-Closd P(D) Max.(W) Power Dissipation=450m Vsup(-) Nom.(V) Neg.Sup.Volt.=15 Vsup(+) Nom.(V) Pos.Sup.Volt.=15 Package=DIP Pins=14 Military=N Technology=CMOS Maybe this is enough to get to a real datasheet? --Chuck From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 21:33:56 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:33:56 -0500 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: <50C3BB03.8030108@update.uu.se> References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> <50C3BB03.8030108@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Pontus wrote: > On 12/07/2012 06:03 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > >> >> I bought it. Still looking for a DigiComp. >> > > Unless you want the original thing. You can, since a few days ago, but a > reproduction: > > http://digi-compii.com/ I want one of the plastic DigiComp I's I had as a kid. I've got a paper one, but I have not assembled it yet. http://paperforest.blogspot.com/2006/02/digi-comp-1.html > > Me, I'm hoping it will come down in price. > > /P > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 21:34:38 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:34:38 -0500 Subject: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store In-Reply-To: References: <50C14DF9.7090509@gmail.com> <50C150BB.80404@gmail.com> <50C15BE6.7000800@gmail.com> <50C1712F.90602@gmail.com> <50C3BB03.8030108@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> On 12/07/2012 06:03 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: >> >>> >>> I bought it. Still looking for a DigiComp. >>> >> >> Unless you want the original thing. You can, since a few days ago, but a >> reproduction: >> >> http://digi-compii.com/ > > > I want one of the plastic DigiComp I's I had as a kid. I've got a paper > one, but I have not assembled it yet. > > http://paperforest.blogspot.com/2006/02/digi-comp-1.html > Sorry, wrong URL. Should be: http://www.mindsontoys.com/kits.htm?dc1_main.htm > > >> >> Me, I'm hoping it will come down in price. >> >> /P >> > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 22:04:16 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 04:04:16 +0000 Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have a sizeable number of Intersil 0.3" 14-pin DIP ICs (plastic package) > with a part number "3-200-5" and a 1978 date code. I have a blue Intersil data book, (from the period when owned by GE) data book part number MV/RRD 583 25M 00B 333-00 #900301 I cannot find a date on the book although a guess of 5/1983 could be right I cannot find your part number in it Nor does it fit the part numbering system pages The only part with 300 as part of its number is LM100/LM300 (voltage regulator) but that comes in either a 10 pin flatpack, TO99 can or dice Dave Caroline From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 8 23:07:26 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 21:07:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Atari 400 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: >> Terry, do yo have an 800 or newer you're going to do a video with? > > I do have a 800XL and it will be the subject of a video at some stage. Neat! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 23:19:40 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 21:19:40 -0800 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> Interesting stuff but, looks like they dug it up after Hurricane Sandy. Is picking water damaged paper tape more relaxing or less ? http://www.ebay.com/sch/frozen-planet/m.html?item=230894597943 From useddec at gmail.com Sat Dec 8 23:52:07 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 23:52:07 -0600 Subject: In the market for hard disk drive for a PDP-8/m In-Reply-To: <201212070236.qB72aDsq098339@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201212070236.qB72aDsq098339@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi Steve, I have all 3 items here, but I'm on the mend. I'll see if i can talk my son into finding them. I also have a plessey controller for the rk05, but can't remember it it's omni-bus or unibus (or both). Ship from 61853, Illinois. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Steve Lafferty wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have been making good progress restoring a PDP-8/m and would like to buy a vintage hard drive and controller for it. Anyone know where I might find those? An RK05 or Diablo-31 drive would be nice. Will also need an RK8E controller board set. > > Have had some near misses: A Diablo-31 was up on eBay but it turns out that it's missing a head. Found an RK05 listed for sale on a fellow's site. After I agreed to buy it, haven't been able to get a reply, though. Located the controller listed for sale at another company site. The phone system takes messages but they haven't been returned (so far). Email bounces. Hmmm. > > Please let me know if you know of any possibilities. > > Thanks, > > Steve > steve at tronola.com > http://www.tronola.com/ > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 9 00:15:49 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:15:49 -0800 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Dec 8, at 9:19 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Interesting stuff but, looks like they dug it up after Hurricane > Sandy. Is picking water damaged paper tape more relaxing or less ? > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/frozen-planet/m.html?item=230894597943 The guy's descriptions leave a little to be desired ("c1950's UNIVAC protoype board" .. except it has ICs on it, with 1970's date codes), but the photos on his web site are interesting: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6z4sv/index.html Time warp to 1965, with a slight increase in entropy. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 00:34:37 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 22:34:37 -0800 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> On 12/8/2012 10:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Dec 8, at 9:19 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Interesting stuff but, looks like they dug it up after Hurricane >> Sandy. Is picking water damaged paper tape more relaxing or less ? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/sch/frozen-planet/m.html?item=230894597943 > > The guy's descriptions leave a little to be desired ("c1950's UNIVAC > protoype board" .. except it has ICs on it, with 1970's date codes), > but the photos on his web site are interesting: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6z4sv/index.html > > Time warp to 1965, with a slight increase in entropy. > I totally missed that. Amazing pictures. Wish there were more. It is hard to imagine a company just abandoning gear like that today. Creditors would have made sure every last bit of wire was accounted for. Actually I wonder if he wasn't just stealing. Was it actually abandoned ? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 00:45:21 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 00:45:21 -0600 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> Message-ID: be surprized how much of this stuff sits in abandoned buildings On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 12:34 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/8/2012 10:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2012 Dec 8, at 9:19 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> Interesting stuff but, looks like they dug it up after Hurricane Sandy. >>> Is picking water damaged paper tape more relaxing or less ? >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/**frozen-planet/m.html?item=**230894597943 >>> >> >> The guy's descriptions leave a little to be desired ("c1950's UNIVAC >> protoype board" .. except it has ICs on it, with 1970's date codes), but >> the photos on his web site are interesting: >> >> http://mysite.verizon.net/**vze6z4sv/index.html >> >> Time warp to 1965, with a slight increase in entropy. >> >> > I totally missed that. Amazing pictures. Wish there were more. It is hard > to imagine a company just abandoning gear like that today. Creditors would > have made sure every last bit of wire was accounted for. Actually I wonder > if he wasn't just stealing. Was it actually abandoned ? > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 00:48:15 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 00:48:15 -0600 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> Message-ID: trys for the box of punched tape would go nice with the jerrel ash collection i have and i can make a copy of it for someone to archive it as i dunno how to hook a h10 up to a modern computer From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 00:59:51 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 00:59:51 -0600 Subject: ibm mag card 2 Message-ID: got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring for 20 bucks http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg curious if theres a way to hook it up? From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 01:01:34 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 23:01:34 -0800 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C4374E.3040300@gmail.com> On 12/8/2012 10:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > be surprized how much of this stuff sits in abandoned buildings > > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 12:34 AM, mc68010 wrote: > >> I totally missed that. Amazing pictures. Wish there were more. It is hard >> to imagine a company just abandoning gear like that today. Creditors would >> have made sure every last bit of wire was accounted for. Actually I wonder >> if he wasn't just stealing. Was it actually abandoned ? >> I understand but, a lot of times it isn't actually abandoned. I don't have enough info to slightly tell in this case. It could be on the books somewhere just they don't care enough to deal with the stuff in the room or it was kinda lost. I would guess it does at least belong to the owner of the building. If the elevator still worked and other floors were occupied it really wasn't an abandoned building. I am glad they saved stuff at any rate but, I am not sure it is really an abandoned building or gear. The test gear looks neatly piled and organized. Only the paper item and scrap is tossed in piles. Who knows though. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 01:10:09 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 01:10:09 -0600 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: <50C4374E.3040300@gmail.com> References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> <50C4374E.3040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: be surprized. i do urban exploration and see allot.... some people have spots their doing stuff then something happens and they close the door and just don't care and the place sits sits and sits... got a good example of a factory like that here.... From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 01:15:33 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 01:15:33 -0600 Subject: Interesting UNIVAC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <50BE777B.3040000@gmail.com> <1354697282.95422.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <50BF23A0.8000502@update.uu.se> <1354704511.29579.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <20121205203052.869b89af0f1b2af4d2b74134@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50BFD37D.5090101@gmail.com> <50C41F6C.8000908@gmail.com> <1BD9789D-1762-46FB-9FF3-5A12542B853B@cs.ubc.ca> <50C430FD.4050600@gmail.com> <50C4374E.3040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: they prolly were in there ligit and negoiated in some way to get it as it was now costing the owner nothing to get rid of this "junk". From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 04:29:44 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 10:29:44 -0000 Subject: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <180095457A574C88A80DDE58448D4006@G4UGMT41> I don't think it was ever "hooked up" to any thing. Just used for copying cards to disk and then feed the disk else where. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: 09 December 2012 07:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: ibm mag card 2 > > > got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring for > 20 bucks > http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg > > curious if theres a way to hook it up? > From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Dec 9 05:02:08 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:02:08 +0100 Subject: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: <180095457A574C88A80DDE58448D4006@G4UGMT41> References: <180095457A574C88A80DDE58448D4006@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: It was an inputoutunit to IBM System 6 text processor. It uses magcards, same size as 80 column punchcards. Capacity roughly 2.000 characters /Nico > > I don't think it was ever "hooked up" to any thing. Just used for copying > cards to disk and then feed the disk else where. > > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness >> Sent: 09 December 2012 07:00 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: ibm mag card 2 >> >> >> got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring for >> 20 bucks >> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg >> >> curious if theres a way to hook it up? >> > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 05:16:06 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 11:16:06 -0000 Subject: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That bit of disk threw me. Is that part of the unit? Anyway in that case I am pretty sure there will be a way to hook it up to something. Might be worth looking at the Raspberry PI it has a nice programmable header with many input/output likes. Its just how much work is needed. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of nico at farumdata.dk > Sent: 09 December 2012 11:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: ibm mag card 2 > > > It was an inputoutunit to IBM System 6 text processor. It > uses magcards, same size as 80 column punchcards. Capacity > roughly 2.000 characters /Nico > > > > > I don't think it was ever "hooked up" to any thing. Just used for > > copying cards to disk and then feed the disk else where. > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > >> Sent: 09 December 2012 07:00 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: ibm mag card 2 > >> > >> > >> got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring > for 20 bucks > >> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg > >> > >> curious if theres a way to hook it up? > >> > > > > > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 08:19:34 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 09:19:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: <50C4067D.20501@sydex.com> References: <50C4067D.20501@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/08/2012 11:11 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I have a sizeable number of Intersil 0.3" 14-pin DIP ICs (plastic >> package) with a part number "3-200-5" and a 1978 date code. >> >> Google turns up about 500 hits - all of them those obnoxious Chinese >> sites none of who have the chip or any data about them. >> >> How do folks work around all the "we find you chip fast, enter RFQ here" >> web sites? > > A little google-fu gets this short-form datasheet: > > HI3-200-5 > > Harris Semiconductor > Search: HI3-200-5 > Dual SPST Nrm-Cls (Logic Level 0) Ana SW > Sw. Volt P-P Max.(V)=30 > Analog Sw. Cur. P-P Max.=30m > r(DS)on (Ohms)=100 > @I(S) (test) (A)=1.0m > @Vd (test) (V)=10 > t(on) Max. (s) Turn-On Time=500n > Control Logic Level Low (V)=0.8 > Control Logic Level High (V)=2.4 > Features=Norm-Closd > P(D) Max.(W) Power Dissipation=450m > Vsup(-) Nom.(V) Neg.Sup.Volt.=15 > Vsup(+) Nom.(V) Pos.Sup.Volt.=15 > Package=DIP > Pins=14 > Military=N > Technology=CMOS I'd love to understand the Google-fu involved. I spent about an hour on this yesterday and found only hundreds of Chinese outfits with no datasheets and several varieties of datasheets.com with, again, no datasheets for this part number. But, I thank you for turning that up! Much appreciated. I thought the "I" stood for Intersil and didn't realize the little logo was an "H". Steve -- From gyorpb at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 10:57:53 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 17:57:53 +0100 Subject: Scanning sheet film (was: SCSI <-> USB) In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 9 dec. 2012, at 00:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, useless for most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. I'd consider scanning sheet film at 300 dpi a waste of effort. You'll surely get much better results scanning them wet on a modern, high dpi flatbed. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 11:12:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 17:12:00 -0000 Subject: Scanning sheet film (was: SCSI <-> USB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <88ADBEF2EDF2495E9D7C790D64D5737C@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joost van de Griek > Sent: 09 December 2012 16:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Scanning sheet film (was: SCSI <-> USB) > > > On 9 dec. 2012, at 00:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, > useless for > > most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I > > could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. > > I'd consider scanning sheet film at 300 dpi a waste of > effort. You'll surely get much better results scanning them > wet on a modern, high dpi flatbed. > I don't think so, 300 DPI is fine for many purposes and the UMAX is pretty quick. I have a UMAX with a transparency adaptor but mine is fire wire. The UMAX software looks for, I think, ASPI interfaces, and so long as the USB adaptor looks like a SCSI adaptor to windows it will probably work. I think the main problems would be getting a driver for the card.. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > .tsooJ > -- > Wherever you go, there you are. > -- > Joost van de Griek > > From shumaker at att.net Sun Dec 9 11:14:52 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 12:14:52 -0500 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> On 12/9/2012 11:57 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 9 dec. 2012, at 00:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >> I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, useless for most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. >> > I'd consider scanning sheet film at 300 dpi a waste of effort. You'll surely get much better results scanning them wet on a modern, high dpi flatbed. > > .tsooJ > please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... Steve From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 9 11:15:40 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 09:15:40 -0800 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50C4C73C.8090100@jwsss.com> On 12/9/2012 8:57 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 9 dec. 2012, at 00:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, useless for most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. > I'd consider scanning sheet film at 300 dpi a waste of effort. You'll surely get much better results scanning them wet on a modern, high dpi flatbed. > > .tsooJ If you dig on epay, you can find an epson perfection v700 6400dpi 8 x 10. if you are near LA, I have one for loan if you are on the list. Bought to scan NASA presentation slides from Boeing. Also have the film inserts to hold film as the software will autodetect. Just looked and they are probably 200 to 300 bucks. Way better than the 300 bucks. But if it what you have better than nothing. I'd rather archive at a higher resolution now days. In the day 300dpi would have been pretty large to handle, but photo quality is doable with larger systems that are available now days. Jim From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 11:22:14 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 09:22:14 -0800 Subject: More DEC keyboards Message-ID: <50C4C8C6.1060604@gmail.com> All - I have 3 more DEC keyboards available: 1) DEC LK401-AA with a hairline cracked bezel - probably easily glued 2) DEC LK401-AA with "gooified" feet 3) DEC LK201 No keys are missing and they seem mechanically sound, but they are a little dirty. I have no means of testing them, sorry. Asking $10 (plus shipping) for box/gas/driving hassle. Higher offers will jump to the front of the line. Take 1 or 2 or all three... I just want to get rid of them. From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 11:35:11 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 10:35:11 -0700 Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <50C4067D.20501@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50C4CBCF.1090508@gmail.com> > I thought the "I" stood for Intersil and didn't realize the little logo > was an "H". Intersil bought the semiconductor part of Harris. They were the same company. Intersil also bought the semiconductor part of RCA. Rob. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 11:37:33 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 11:37:33 -0600 Subject: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the platter? no thats from a unisys drive of some sort the guy i bought the mag card 2 from gave it to me with it witch hangs on my wall now On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 5:16 AM, Dave wrote: > That bit of disk threw me. Is that part of the unit? Anyway in that case I > am pretty sure there will be a way to hook it up to something. Might be > worth looking at the Raspberry PI it has a nice programmable header with > many input/output likes. Its just how much work is needed. > > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of nico at farumdata.dk > > Sent: 09 December 2012 11:02 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: ibm mag card 2 > > > > > > It was an inputoutunit to IBM System 6 text processor. It > > uses magcards, same size as 80 column punchcards. Capacity > > roughly 2.000 characters /Nico > > > > > > > > I don't think it was ever "hooked up" to any thing. Just used for > > > copying cards to disk and then feed the disk else where. > > > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > > >> Sent: 09 December 2012 07:00 > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> Subject: ibm mag card 2 > > >> > > >> > > >> got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring > > for 20 bucks > > >> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg > > >> > > >> curious if theres a way to hook it up? > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 9 12:21:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 10:21:43 -0800 Subject: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C4D6B7.60507@sydex.com> On 12/08/2012 10:59 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring for 20 bucks > http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg > > curious if theres a way to hook it up? It looks to be from an IBM MC Selectric: http://ibmcomposer.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=65 I'll bet that the folks who run the Golfball typewriter group on Yahoo! probably have a manual for it. --Chuck From gyorpb at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 12:34:24 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 19:34:24 +0100 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> Message-ID: <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> On 9 dec. 2012, at 18:14, steve shumaker wrote: > please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 12:55:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 13:55:16 -0500 Subject: More DEC keyboards In-Reply-To: <50C4C8C6.1060604@gmail.com> References: <50C4C8C6.1060604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <66CDB556-2AB7-4A7D-A554-64638726116D@gmail.com> On Dec 9, 2012, at 12:22, "Kurt M. Nowak" wrote: > All - > > I have 3 more DEC keyboards available: > > 1) DEC LK401-AA with a hairline cracked bezel - probably easily glued > 2) DEC LK401-AA with "gooified" feet > 3) DEC LK201 > > No keys are missing and they seem mechanically sound, but they are a little dirty. I have no means of testing them, sorry. > > Asking $10 (plus shipping) for box/gas/driving hassle. Higher offers will jump to the front of the line. Take 1 or 2 or all three... I just want to get rid of them. I'd be glad to take the 201 if no one else has claimed it. PayPal? Check? Let me know the details. Shipping to 19146. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 9 13:55:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 11:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: References: <180095457A574C88A80DDE58448D4006@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <20121209114810.Q96371@shell.lmi.net> > I don't think it was ever "hooked up" to any thing. Just used for copying > cards to disk and then feed the disk else where. The IBM Magnetic Tape Selectric Typewriter was a STAND-ALONE word processing machine, often used for creating form letters. "Dear Mr. COLLEGE, of all the families on CAMPUS DRIVE, you have been selected . . . " It was usually called "MTST", pronounced "empty ST", which gave rise to a TRS80 word processing program, (NOT from IBM) pretentiously named "FULL ST" Later, there was a Magnetic CARD Selectric Typewriter, and even some ancillary machines. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 14:00:18 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 15:00:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help identifying ICs? In-Reply-To: <50C4CBCF.1090508@gmail.com> References: <50C4067D.20501@sydex.com> <50C4CBCF.1090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2012, Rob Doyle wrote: > >> I thought the "I" stood for Intersil and didn't realize the little logo >> was an "H". > > Intersil bought the semiconductor part of Harris. They were the same > company. Intersil also bought the semiconductor part of RCA. Ok. When I plug "Harris HI-300-5" into Google I get reasonable hits and was able to find the datasheet. It's a DPST logic-controlled analog switch. If I had the insight to know that Harris acquired Intersil, I'd have been there in one shot. Thanks again for the help. Anyone need 140 of these? :-) Steve -- From shumaker at att.net Sun Dec 9 14:11:17 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 15:11:17 -0500 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C4F065.50008@att.net> On 12/9/2012 1:34 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 9 dec. 2012, at 18:14, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... >> > > > > .tsooJ > the link didn't help (doesn't link to anything specific) but it did prod me into doing a google. interesting! Been scanning stuff at fairly high res for years but never heard of that technique before. makes sense though. steve From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 9 14:25:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:25:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Scanning sheet film (was: SCSI <-> USB) In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20121209122212.A96371@shell.lmi.net> > > I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, useless for > > most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I > > could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. On Sun, 9 Dec 2012, Joost van de Griek wrote: > I'd consider scanning sheet film at 300 dpi a waste of effort. You'll > surely get much better results scanning them wet on a modern, high dpi > flatbed. Using high resolution (8x10) to produce very low resolution proof-sheets, snapshots, or web images? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 9 14:35:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:35:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: FPUIB: Scanport SQ2030 Scanner (Was: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: <50C4C73C.8090100@jwsss.com> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C73C.8090100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20121209123202.D96371@shell.lmi.net> Scanport SQ2030 300 x 600 DPI opticaal 4800? interpolated (guessed) Parallel port, Windoze 3.1/95/NT Twain in box, I don't know if it was ever used NOT RECOMMENDED FOR SCANNING 8x10 film From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 9 15:13:37 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 13:13:37 -0800 Subject: Scanning sheet film (was: SCSI <-> USB) In-Reply-To: <20121209122212.A96371@shell.lmi.net> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <20121209122212.A96371@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 12:25 PM -0800 12/9/12, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I have an ancient 300dpi UMAX scanner out in the garage, useless for >> > most things, EXCEPT, it has a full size transparency adapter and I >> > could use it to scan 8x10 sheet film. >On Sun, 9 Dec 2012, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> I'd consider scanning sheet film at 300 dpi a waste of effort. You'll >> surely get much better results scanning them wet on a modern, high dpi >> flatbed. > >Using high resolution (8x10) to produce very low resolution >proof-sheets, snapshots, or web images? Exactly, proof sheets and web images. Also 300dpi would be enough to create masks for contact printing. I need a modern Epson V750-M scanner, BUT, I've been waiting for Epson to upgrade it, the V700/V750-M are the only scanners in the line that haven't been upgraded to an LED lightsource. I've been limping by with an Epson 2450, but it can only handle up to 4x5 film, and I've started shooting 8x10. For anything other than proofs and web usage, I'll likely pay the $$$'s to get the film scanned professionally in a drum scanner. In fact once I get a good wide angle lens for my 8x10 Deardorff, I'll definitely do this, as digital camera's can't handle a couple photographs I need to take for a project. The worst part is I'll have to take them on colour film, and then convert them to B&W on the computer to achieve consistency with the rest of the project. Zane Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 9 15:17:00 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 13:17:00 -0800 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: <50C4F065.50008@att.net> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> Message-ID: At 3:11 PM -0500 12/9/12, steve shumaker wrote: >On 12/9/2012 1:34 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>On 9 dec. 2012, at 18:14, steve shumaker wrote: >> >> >>>please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... >>> >> >> >> >>.tsooJ >> >the link didn't help (doesn't link to anything specific) but it did >prod me into doing a google. interesting! Been scanning stuff at >fairly high res for years but never heard of that technique before. >makes sense though. > > >steve Rather than wet, here is the route I plan to get once I finally upgrade my Epson 2450. It's also part of why I'm waiting for Epson to release what I really want. When you factor in the price of both the scanner and the mounts I need, it will be an expensive setup. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 15:23:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 21:23:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 Message-ID: I am not sure if this is on-topic since the machine involved was sold as a calculaotr. On the other hand, it programs in BASIC, it's getting on for 40 yuears old, and I am thinking of adding a hard disk. Classic computer? The HP9880 is the hard disk (14" platters) for the HP9830 'calculator'. I am slowly gathering the various bits of this system, I would love to get it all working again. As I understnad it, you need : An HP9830 calculator, HP9866 printer Mass Memory ROM module HP11273B 'cable' from the HP9830 to the controller HP11305 disk controller HP11302 cable from the controlelr to the drive HP7900A disk drive (one fixed, oen removeable plater) + PSU (or HP7901, which has only the removeable platter, but has an internal PSU) System tape cassette for the HP9830 Disk packs (of course). Now, The 9830 and 9866 I have, working. The HP11305 controller and both 'cables' (I put that in quotes becase thes cable assembleis have PSBs stuffed with ICs at at elast one end -- the 11273 has over 50 ICs in it) I also have, untested, but I know th PSU is good and the microcde ROMs look OPK (the disassebmyl of the mcirocode makes sense). Since everything else is standard TTL, analogue or RAMs ICs, I think that's reparaiable if necessary. I have the scheamtics and micorocde source for all that. The HP9800e emulator includes a dumo of the Mass Memory ROM, and thus I have it in an EPROM module. That emualtor also has an image of the ssytem and service tapes for the 9880, but as yet I haven'tt figured out the format of the image file or how to get them back onto physicl cassettes. I do have another tape drive mechansim (not HP) which sould be able to produce compatible tapes 'Just' a little matter of figuring out how ot interface it to soemthign and use it. At least I ahve the handbook for said drive, it includes timeing diagrams and schematics. Which leaves the drive and packs. This is the problem, I susepct I do havev a 7900A. Alas it was in a skip (dumpster) and had a 2100A thrown on top of it. The 2100A survived. THe 7900A is more sdubious. The front was samaged when it was gtaken out of the rack too. It's missing the terminator and the little card edge conenctor PCB, but those are easy to make I think. It's going ot need work. I also don't have the PSU for it. This seems ot be 120C AC (not isolated from the mains) for the blower and spindle motros), unregualted +/-24V and regulated +5V, +/-12V. Nothing difficult, but I can see myself speding time and moeny making something and then find the heads will no logner fly. I susepct replacement heads are not exactly common, I wonder if RK05 heads can me made ot fit? According to the HP nanual for the drive, there was a text/service unti for this drive, it conencted ot the side of the backplane. I cna't rememebr the model numebr (HP13219?). Hase anyone ever seen one, or have the manuals for it? And now for the pack. It's the same physicla size as the RK05 pack, but 24 (hard) sectors. Of coruse there's the fixed platter in the 7900A drive with it's own 24 sector hard dsetoy rign nad transducer. I belived the drive will spin up with any pack in it, so I could put a 'scratch' 12 sector RK05 in there to (a) see if the heads will fly and (b) see if I can use the fixed paltter (which will be 24 sector) drom the HP9830. If I get that far, I guess I then take an RK05 pack apart and attempt to put anotehr 12 notches i nthe sector ring. I beleive I then have to re-centre the platter on the hub which will be 'interesting' What if the heads crash? Maybe try to fit RK05 heads (I have some brand new spares here). Maybe try to interface an RK03 or RK05 to the HP contorller. The interface is differnet, but at least the data rate is the same. It woudl take a bit of logic to get it to work, but... If all else fails, make a solid-state repalcement for the drive? I gueess the questions at the momnet are : Anyone know the precise details of the tape image file format for 9800e? Anyone ever manage to fit RK05 heads into an HP7900? Anyone ever managed to cut the ectra sector notches? Anything knwon about the disk service unit for the HP7900? Does anyone have any comments/thoughts. Am I totally crazy for trying to do this? -tony From ba600 at ncf.ca Sat Dec 8 23:17:27 2012 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:17:27 -0500 Subject: cleaning up after the move. Message-ID: <84694266.k1H0j7xPef@linux-zlo2> It's been a long while since my last post, and I should have cleaned up before moving rather than after. But I have a pile of monitors and external SCSI boxes that I'm not interest in keeping. Is there any interest or should these go to the recyclers. Apple monitors these came with the 2e all the way upto the LC's I think I only need to keep one or two so there are several spares Also older CGA and VGA monitors a few older terminals a pair of IBM PC 500 servers and 3 AS/400 9404s -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 18:06:55 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 18:06:55 -0600 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> Message-ID: the epson 4490 does a nice job and has inserts.. i shoot medium frormat btw... On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:11 PM -0500 12/9/12, steve shumaker wrote: > >> On 12/9/2012 1:34 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> >>> On 9 dec. 2012, at 18:14, steve shumaker wrote: >>> >>> >>> please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> .tsooJ >>> >>> the link didn't help (doesn't link to anything specific) but it did >> prod me into doing a google. interesting! Been scanning stuff at fairly >> high res for years but never heard of that technique before. makes sense >> though. >> >> >> steve >> > > Rather than wet, here is the route I plan to get once I finally upgrade my > Epson 2450. It's also part of why I'm waiting for Epson to release what I > really want. When you factor in the price of both the scanner and the > mounts I need, it will be an expensive setup. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.**com | > > From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 18:35:39 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 18:35:39 -0600 Subject: SCSI <-> USB In-Reply-To: <37F5CE8D4D5D489DBC87C01E4969C158@RANGER1> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <37F5CE8D4D5D489DBC87C01E4969C158@RANGER1> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) wrote: > I have and use a RATOC System U2SCXU (usb-hd50). > With a couple other adaptors (hd50 gender changer, hd50-hd68) > I usually connect to a SLR5 tape drive for tape reading and on occation, > also a DAT24 drive (dds3). > www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm > I use Cygwin with the commands "mt" for tape control and "dd" to read with. Interesting...this cable is hard to find (only one on eBay, at a laughable $179) but it happens to look exactly (save for the color of the plastic shell) like the MicroTech USB-SCSI-HD50 I have here. The last driver for the MicroTech was for Windows 2000, although I read on one user's blog that he he got it to work in WinXP (albeit 32 bit only.) OSX support also ended around 10.3 or 10.4 RATOC's site says their adapter is supported through Win7x64. However, that driver download is behind a registration wall. I'd really like to see if their driver would work with this earlier MicroTech version of the device. Since you're using Cygwin, I am guessing you are using Windows as well. -- jht From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Dec 9 20:05:54 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 21:05:54 -0500 Subject: Need help with installing PDP-8 4k Disk Monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121210020554.GA21055@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sun, Dec 02, 2012 at 10:46:30AM -0500, Michael Thompson wrote: > > I am not sure if this configuration can be duplicated on one of the > emulators. If someone could try the monitor installation and > subsequent loading of programs from a real "Teletype" it would be > interesting to see if it works. If it does work, then maybe we need to > add the reader control circuitry to the 20mA/RS-232 converter that we > are using to connect a PC to the PDP-8/I. > This may be OBE but I finally got time to test and to fix the PDP8 so I could test. The first attempt corrupted my DF32. I tried using the DMS load command sending pip from PC to a DF32. It failed if I turned off hardare flow control. I have a board which converts the current loop to RS-232 and the reader run into CTS. I was running at 9600 baud. I wasn't sure if the DF32 could complete a write in the 100ms between teltype characters so used the higher baud rate. The common USB serial devices do flow control fine but won't do 110 baud. Real 16550 will do 110 but the flow control is in software so the fifos have to be disabled. With vista it seemed to need a reboot after disabling the fifo in device manager before it took effect. I haven't figured how to disable them under a recent linux. FYI: I have made a version of my dump and restore that may work with TC01/TC08. The person I made it for hasn't had time to try after I made it. Its only been tested with an emulator since I don't have a TC01. If you have a use for it it's here. See readme.txt. The TC01 files are in tc08.zip. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/dumprest/ At 110 baud it may not be too useful. I stick a TTY clock card with the cap value changed in my 8/I to run at a faster baud rate. From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Dec 9 23:10:26 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 00:10:26 -0500 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer Message-ID: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> I wanted to buy an equipment cart to house the huge HP 16700A logic analyzer I bought, and I couldn't find one that would suit my needs. So I built it: http://www.techtravels.org/new_la_cart.jpg Specs were roughly * 2x2 solid wood Poplar frame construction * (3) 2'x2' shelves * Birch-Veneered 3/4" plywood * 2" casters * Monitor on left is floating above the top project area on flexible arm * anti-static mat * Surge protector for connecting equipment * sliding keyboard shelf * Ergonomically designed heights for keyboard/monitor It's far from perfect and weighs a ton, but it's pretty solid and I'm happy with it. Thought I'd share..... Thanks, Keith From g-wright at att.net Mon Dec 10 00:23:09 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 22:23:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. Message-ID: <1355120589.68486.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm trying to make up some TU-58 images with the needed XXDP files. I'm new to both, so be kind. I would think that i need to do the basic assign and mount with e11 for the TU-58 assign TT1: DDA Mount DDA0: 'file name'.dsk E11 comes back with can't open file. It will let me just mount it with out a file. but if I'm going to write to it, I would guess there needs to be a container file. Thanks, Jerry From colineby at isallthat.com Mon Dec 10 01:56:25 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:56:25 +0000 Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, I'm pretty sure we have all of the above, though not in working order. However, if you need photos or a chance to study the kit, I'm sure we can help. I know we also have an HP video on about it which covers some setup and maintenance. I'd be only too pleased to repay your kind assistance to us. ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I am not sure if this is on-topic since the machine involved was sold >as >a calculaotr. On the other hand, it programs in BASIC, it's getting on >for 40 yuears old, and I am thinking of adding a hard disk. Classic >computer? > >The HP9880 is the hard disk (14" platters) for the HP9830 'calculator'. >I >am slowly gathering the various bits of this system, I would love to >get >it all working again. > >As I understnad it, you need : > >An HP9830 calculator, > >HP9866 printer > >Mass Memory ROM module > >HP11273B 'cable' from the HP9830 to the controller > >HP11305 disk controller > >HP11302 cable from the controlelr to the drive > >HP7900A disk drive (one fixed, oen removeable plater) + PSU (or HP7901, > >which has only the removeable platter, but has an internal PSU) > >System tape cassette for the HP9830 > >Disk packs (of course). > >Now, The 9830 and 9866 I have, working. The HP11305 controller and both > >'cables' (I put that in quotes becase thes cable assembleis have PSBs >stuffed with ICs at at elast one end -- the 11273 has over 50 ICs in >it) >I also have, untested, but I know th PSU is good and the microcde ROMs >look OPK (the disassebmyl of the mcirocode makes sense). Since >everything >else is standard TTL, analogue or RAMs ICs, I think that's reparaiable >if >necessary. I have the scheamtics and micorocde source for all that. > >The HP9800e emulator includes a dumo of the Mass Memory ROM, and thus I > >have it in an EPROM module. > >That emualtor also has an image of the ssytem and service tapes for >the >9880, but as yet I haven'tt figured out the format of the image file or > >how to get them back onto physicl cassettes. I do have another tape >drive >mechansim (not HP) which sould be able to produce compatible tapes >'Just' >a little matter of figuring out how ot interface it to soemthign and >use >it. At least I ahve the handbook for said drive, it includes timeing >diagrams and schematics. > >Which leaves the drive and packs. This is the problem, I susepct I do >havev a 7900A. Alas it was in a skip (dumpster) and had a 2100A thrown >on >top of it. The 2100A survived. THe 7900A is more sdubious. The front >was >samaged when it was gtaken out of the rack too. It's missing the >terminator and the little card edge conenctor PCB, but those are easy >to >make I think. > >It's going ot need work. I also don't have the PSU for it. This seems >ot >be 120C AC (not isolated from the mains) for the blower and spindle >motros), unregualted +/-24V and regulated +5V, +/-12V. Nothing >difficult, >but I can see myself speding time and moeny making something and then >find the heads will no logner fly. I susepct replacement heads are not >exactly common, I wonder if RK05 heads can me made ot fit? > >According to the HP nanual for the drive, there was a text/service unti > >for this drive, it conencted ot the side of the backplane. I cna't >rememebr the model numebr (HP13219?). Hase anyone ever seen one, or >have >the manuals for it? > >And now for the pack. It's the same physicla size as the RK05 pack, but > >24 (hard) sectors. Of coruse there's the fixed platter in the 7900A >drive >with it's own 24 sector hard dsetoy rign nad transducer. I belived the > >drive will spin up with any pack in it, so I could put a 'scratch' 12 >sector RK05 in there to (a) see if the heads will fly and (b) see if I >can use the fixed paltter (which will be 24 sector) drom the HP9830. > >If I get that far, I guess I then take an RK05 pack apart and attempt >to >put anotehr 12 notches i nthe sector ring. I beleive I then have to >re-centre the platter on the hub which will be 'interesting' > >What if the heads crash? Maybe try to fit RK05 heads (I have some brand > >new spares here). Maybe try to interface an RK03 or RK05 to the HP >contorller. The interface is differnet, but at least the data rate is >the >same. It woudl take a bit of logic to get it to work, but... If all >else >fails, make a solid-state repalcement for the drive? > >I gueess the questions at the momnet are : > >Anyone know the precise details of the tape image file format for >9800e? > >Anyone ever manage to fit RK05 heads into an HP7900? > >Anyone ever managed to cut the ectra sector notches? > >Anything knwon about the disk service unit for the HP7900? > >Does anyone have any comments/thoughts. Am I totally crazy for trying >to >do this? > >-tony -- Colin From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 02:03:18 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Aracnet) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 00:03:18 -0800 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. In-Reply-To: <1355120589.68486.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1355120589.68486.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Am I reading this right? You're trying to mount a disk image as a tape? Zane On Dec 9, 2012, at 10:23 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > I'm trying to make up some TU-58 images with the needed > XXDP files. I'm new to both, so be kind. > > I would think that i need to do the basic assign and mount > with e11 for the TU-58 > > assign TT1: DDA > Mount DDA0: 'file name'.dsk > > E11 comes back with can't open file. > > It will let me just mount it with out a file. but if > I'm going to write to it, I would guess there needs to > be a container file. > > > Thanks, Jerry > > From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 02:24:12 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:24:12 +0100 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: <50C4F065.50008@att.net> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> Message-ID: On 9 Dec 2012, at 21:11 , steve shumaker wrote: > On 12/9/2012 1:34 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > >>> please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... >> >> > > the link didn't help (doesn't link to anything specific) but it did prod me into doing a google. interesting! Been scanning stuff at fairly high res for years but never heard of that technique before. makes sense though. Sorry, Youtube's mobile site gave me a convoluted link on the iPhone, my manual cleanup must've mangled it. I meant this: Point is, I wet scan directly on the flatbed, no (flimsy) film holders. Excellent results. Not drum-scanning level results, but good enough for home scanning. There is some experimentation involved with getting the best focus. Flipping the film and adding or subtracting mylar sheets until the image plane is in near-perfect focus. .tsooJ -- The best things in life aren't things. -- Joost van de Griek From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 02:25:52 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 02:25:52 -0600 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. In-Reply-To: References: <1355120589.68486.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: he needs an emulator i think? On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Aracnet wrote: > Am I reading this right? You're trying to mount a disk image as a tape? > > Zane > > > > On Dec 9, 2012, at 10:23 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > > > I'm trying to make up some TU-58 images with the needed > > XXDP files. I'm new to both, so be kind. > > > > I would think that i need to do the basic assign and mount > > with e11 for the TU-58 > > > > assign TT1: DDA > > Mount DDA0: 'file name'.dsk > > > > E11 comes back with can't open file. > > > > It will let me just mount it with out a file. but if > > I'm going to write to it, I would guess there needs to > > be a container file. > > > > > > Thanks, Jerry > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.com Mon Dec 10 02:29:08 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 03:29:08 -0500 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. Message-ID: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> From: Jerry Wright > assign TT1: DDA > Mount DDA0: 'file name'.dsk > > E11 comes back with can't open file. The apostrophes (or quotations marks) should be around the entire filename, not just the part before the .dsk extension. And you don't need them at all if the filename doesn't contain blanks or forward slashes or other weird characters. > It will let me just mount it with out a file. but if > I'm going to write to it, I would guess there needs to > be a container file. It's true, a DD: controller with no working units isn't very useful! E11 doesn't give an error message though, since it doesn't want to be picky about the order of the ASSIGN TT and MOUNT DD commands. For all it knows you were just about to attach files/etc. to DDA. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.com Mon Dec 10 02:44:14 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 03:44:14 -0500 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 Message-ID: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> After a long delay (it's hard to make big release-worthy improvements after 19 years of development), Ersatz-11 V6.1 is done. The free demo/hobby version is at: http://www.dbit.com/demo.html This release's additions are mostly about weird LSI-11-based microcomputers: - Terak 8510/a. This is a desktop machine with a standard LSI-11 CPU card and non-standard everything else. The highlight is the 320x240 graphics display. Runs RT-11/85 and UCSD p-System. Works in the DOS, Win32, OS/2, and stand-alone versions of E11, but not Linux (due to linker problems). Probably has plenty of rough edges since I've never even seen a Terak machine in real life. For one thing it only works with QX:-bootable disks (no QB: FDC emulation yet). - DEC PDT-11/130. LSI-11 chipset in a busless machine built into a modified VT100, with two TU58 tape units below the monitor. Runs RT11 SJ or FB, with more free memory than other MMU-less machines since it has a reduced I/O page (so 60 KB of main memory instead of 56 KB), and the guts of the TU58 driver are in ROM. DEC's PD.SYS driver is very small since it's just a shim. A reimplementation of the ROM code is supplied (since the original is copyrighted by DEC). - DEC PDT-11/150. As above but in a big desktop cube with two RX01s for storage. Again, comes with replacement ROM code to make PD.SYS work. The manual has an appendix that shows how to write "E11.INI" config files for all three of these micros. There's also a new built-in text editor; see the EDIT command in the manual. This was kind of an insane amount of work for just one new page of documentation! You already know how to use it (press PF2 for the keypad help screen if there isn't already a hardcopy scotch-taped to your monitor). It's mainly for editing your E11.INI w/o having to leave the emulation (or boot an OS in stand-alone E11), but it's an adequate basic text editor (it's a VT100ified 32-bit port of the DOS editor I've used for everything since 1983, including writing E11 itself). Another new feature that's just a rough cut is that the SET THROTTLE DELAY=d INTERVAL=i command can now take FILE=foo[.TIM] instead of DELAY=d. This way you can feed it a file (e.g. foo.tim) which contains 65536 little-endian 32-bit longwords, each of which is the average execution time of the corresponding PDP-11 opcode in nanoseconds. So now instead of adding a fixed d-microsecond delay every i instructions, E11 maintains a running total of execution time, and every i instructions it checks the actual current time and delays as needed to match. There's a lot of overhead in banging on the timer chip so often though, so for now the execution speed comes out slower than it should. The main fetch/dispatch loop is recompiled at runtime when the SET THROTTLE command is issued, so at least the overhead from this code vanishes when it's not enabled. Other new stuff: ASSIGN xxx /MAC:aa-bb-cc-dd-ee-ff works for *all* Ethernet devices (was just UDP:) so you can override the real port's default MAC address. And there's a new keyscript command that should have been there eons ago: "LASTSIMILARYEARBEFORE 2000" (you can use other years but why would you?) converts the current year captured by GETTIME to the last one before 2000 that had all the same days of the week, so you can kludge your way around non-Y2K-compliant PDP-11 OSes (this is for entering the current time/date with one keystroke at boot time if that's not obvious). John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 10 03:06:34 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 02:06:34 -0700 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> Keith Monahan wrote: > I wanted to buy an equipment cart to house the huge HP 16700A logic > analyzer I bought, and I couldn't find one that would suit my needs. > > So I built it: Nice work! I should build a copy for use with my 16702A or 16700B. Where did you get the arm for the monitor? My 16702A has a bad LCD panel, so I'm using it with an external LCD monitor, just like a 16700A. I'm frustrated that it doesn't support the native 1600x1200 resolution of the Samsung Syncmaster 213T monitor that I want to use with it. IIRC, the logic analyzer does have a 1600x1200 mode, but not at a sync rate the Samsung is happy with. The logic analyzer has one setting that apparently supposed to be customizable, but I can't find a way to set i up. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 07:11:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:11:18 -0500 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <26A91A21-E0F4-4C19-97A5-C91DF84CC000@gmail.com> On Dec 10, 2012, at 4:06, Eric Smith wrote: > My 16702A has a bad LCD panel, so I'm using it with an external LCD monitor, just like a 16700A. I'm frustrated that it doesn't support the native 1600x1200 resolution of the Samsung Syncmaster 213T monitor that I want to use with it. Unrelated: I have that exact monitor as my auxiliary monitor in a dual-head setup because it developed quite a few "dead" columns where either the red, green or blue is stuck at max. There are more every year; I think I'm probably up to about 20 now. Do you have a similar problem? I'm wondering if it's endemic to the monitor. - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Dec 10 07:44:50 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:44:50 -0500 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <02677f54-f926-47fe-ba34-132c24ef3ea6@email.android.com> Eric, Its an Ergotron neoflex lcd arm. Under $70 USD, it was the cheapest brand name I could find. You can get them as cheap as $20 (mono price) but I wanted something reasonably reliable. Its not perfect but the build quality is decent and I like the 3 yr warranty. My syncmaster pictured also doesn't support the necessary 1600x1200 frame rate (vertical 75hz, I think) A quick look through newegg didn't leave me with great options. Is the higher resolution really necessary? I also want to run it high but does it really help usability or practicality? Does the screen real estate matter that much? Not judging just trying to understand the benefit.... Thanks Keith Eric Smith wrote: >Keith Monahan wrote: >> I wanted to buy an equipment cart to house the huge HP 16700A logic >> analyzer I bought, and I couldn't find one that would suit my needs. >> >> So I built it: > >Nice work! I should build a copy for use with my 16702A or 16700B. >Where did you get the arm for the monitor? > >My 16702A has a bad LCD panel, so I'm using it with an external LCD >monitor, just like a 16700A. I'm frustrated that it doesn't support >the >native 1600x1200 resolution of the Samsung Syncmaster 213T monitor that > >I want to use with it. IIRC, the logic analyzer does have a 1600x1200 >mode, but not at a sync rate the Samsung is happy with. The logic >analyzer has one setting that apparently supposed to be customizable, >but I can't find a way to set i up. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 10 08:28:44 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 06:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... Message-ID: The whole file is now available at: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by vendor and get new pages created for them. Many thanks to Al for recovering this! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From steve at tronola.com Mon Dec 10 07:58:47 2012 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:58:47 -0500 Subject: In the market for hard disk drive for a PDP-8/m In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201212101358.qBADwpi1075917@billy.ezwind.net> Hi Paul, Thanks so much for the reply. I'm very interested. Will be in touch off-list. Hope that you will be feeling better soon. Steve steve at tronola.com http://www.tronola.com/ >From: Paul Anderson >Hi Steve, > >I have all 3 items here, but I'm on the mend. I'll see if i can talk >my son into finding them. I also have a plessey controller for the >rk05, but can't remember it it's omni-bus or unibus (or both). Ship >from 61853, Illinois. > >Thanks, Paul > >On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Steve Lafferty wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> I have been making good progress restoring a PDP-8/m and would like to buy a vintage hard drive and controller for it. Anyone know where I might find those? An RK05 or Diablo-31 drive would be nice. Will also need an RK8E controller board set...Please let me know if you know of any possibilities. >> >> Thanks, Steve From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 10 08:54:52 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:54:52 -0500 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. In-Reply-To: References: <1355120589.68486.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50C5F7BC.2020308@compsys.to> >Aracnet wrote: >Am I reading this right? You're trying to mount a disk image as a tape? > >Zane > > A real DEC TU-58 may be a tape, but as far as E11 is concerned, it is an image of a disk drive. I don't see any reason why any file can't be MOUNTed for any device which handles blocks as a portion of a disk image. I almost always use MSCP device drivers under RT-11 under E11, so the size of the file can be anything which the native operating system can handle. Under Windows 98SE, the limit is (4 GB - one block), as far as I know. I have a number of 2 GB files which hold 64 RT-11 partitions. For the TU-58 device driver, I would imagine that the practical limit would be 32 MB. Jerome Fine >>On Dec 9, 2012, at 10:23 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > >>I'm trying to make up some TU-58 images with the needed >>XXDP files. I'm new to both, so be kind. >> >>I would think that i need to do the basic assign and mount >>with e11 for the TU-58 >> >>assign TT1: DDA >>Mount DDA0: 'file name'.dsk >> >>E11 comes back with can't open file. >> >>It will let me just mount it with out a file. but if >>I'm going to write to it, I would guess there needs to >>be a container file. >> From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 10 09:08:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:08:50 -0700 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <26A91A21-E0F4-4C19-97A5-C91DF84CC000@gmail.com> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> <26A91A21-E0F4-4C19-97A5-C91DF84CC000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C5FB02.2070704@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote [about the Samsung Syncmaster 213T]: > Unrelated: I have that exact monitor as my auxiliary monitor in a > dual-head setup because it developed quite a few "dead" columns where > either the red, green or blue is stuck at max. There are more every > year; I think I'm probably up to about 20 now. Do you have a similar > problem? I'm wondering if it's endemic to the monitor. - Dave I haven't used the 213T in about nine months now, but the last time I did, I didn't notice any stuck pixels. I have an early Panasonic AL-D40 LCD monitor (14 inch, 1024x768, grey market import before LCD monitors were marketed in US, later OEM'd by HP as D5060A), which came with one blue pixel stuck on, but it didn't develop more. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 10 09:10:14 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:10:14 -0700 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <02677f54-f926-47fe-ba34-132c24ef3ea6@email.android.com> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> <02677f54-f926-47fe-ba34-132c24ef3ea6@email.android.com> Message-ID: <50C5FB56.9010103@brouhaha.com> Keith M wrote: > Is the higher resolution really necessary? I also want to run it high but does it really help usability or practicality? Does the screen real estate matter that much? Not judging just trying to understand the benefit.... I suppose there's some upper bound to usefulness of screen real estate, but I haven't hit it yet. From george at rachors.com Mon Dec 10 09:13:59 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:13:59 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E838A3-8D1E-4DC9-8B09-0A0A7B37F815@rachors.com> YAY! George george at rachors.com On Dec 10, 2012, at 6:28 AM, geneb wrote: > The whole file is now available at: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip > > When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by vendor and get new pages created for them. > > Many thanks to Al for recovering this! > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 09:18:03 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:18:03 +0000 Subject: Small joke Message-ID: Happy DEC-10! (Bemused? Check the date...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From HDevogelaere at toshibatec-eu.be Mon Dec 10 09:24:59 2012 From: HDevogelaere at toshibatec-eu.be (HDevogelaere at toshibatec-eu.be) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:24:59 +0100 Subject: Data General AV4300 Message-ID: Does somebody have a Data General AV4300 (G70421-7)? I have one, still running, and I would like to make a clone, in case this one fails. Hendrik Devogelaere NOTICE: This mail is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. You must not copy, distribute, or take action in reliance upon it. Whilst all efforts are made to safeguard e-mails, TOSHIBA TEC Europe Retail Information Systems S.A. cannot guarantee that attachments are virus free or compatible with your systems and does not accept liability in respect of viruses or computer problems experienced. TOSHIBA TEC Europe Retail Information Systems S.A. reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its internal and external networks. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 09:28:43 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:28:43 -0500 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <50C5FB02.2070704@brouhaha.com> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> <26A91A21-E0F4-4C19-97A5-C91DF84CC000@gmail.com> <50C5FB02.2070704@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1B620CCE-46FD-4878-A57E-BF5A803BE9A7@gmail.com> On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:08 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote [about the Samsung Syncmaster 213T]: >> Unrelated: I have that exact monitor as my auxiliary monitor in a dual-head setup because it developed quite a few "dead" columns where either the red, green or blue is stuck at max. There are more every year; I think I'm probably up to about 20 now. Do you have a similar problem? I'm wondering if it's endemic to the monitor. - Dave > > I haven't used the 213T in about nine months now, but the last time I did, I didn't notice any stuck pixels. I have an early Panasonic AL-D40 LCD monitor (14 inch, 1024x768, grey market import before LCD monitors were marketed in US, later OEM'd by HP as D5060A), which came with one blue pixel stuck on, but it didn't develop more. The curious bit about this one for me is that it's stuck *columns*, which I haven't seen before. My assumption is that some flex cable which attaches directly to the panel for the column drivers is developing bubbles somewhere, but since I'm not doing much aside from text editing on that monitor, I don't care enough to look. Anyway, I'm thread hijacking and it's not all that important, I was just wondering if anyone had run into the same thing. - Dave From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 10 09:35:25 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:35:25 -0800 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20121210073525.0fd94a5f@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 03:44:14 -0500 John Wilson wrote: > After a long delay (it's hard to make big release-worthy improvements > after 19 years of development), Ersatz-11 V6.1 is done. > > The free demo/hobby version is at: > > http://www.dbit.com/demo.html > > This release's additions are mostly about weird LSI-11-based > microcomputers: --snip-- Thank you, John! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 10 09:54:27 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:54:27 +0100 Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003201cdd6ee$a5880dd0$f0982970$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 9 december 2012 22:23 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Piecing together an HP9880 > > I am not sure if this is on-topic since the machine involved was sold as a > calculaotr. On the other hand, it programs in BASIC, it's getting on for 40 yuears > old, and I am thinking of adding a hard disk. Classic computer? > > The HP9880 is the hard disk (14" platters) for the HP9830 'calculator'. I am slowly > gathering the various bits of this system, I would love to get it all working again. > > As I understnad it, you need : > > An HP9830 calculator, > > HP9866 printer > > Mass Memory ROM module > > HP11273B 'cable' from the HP9830 to the controller > > HP11305 disk controller > > HP11302 cable from the controlelr to the drive > > HP7900A disk drive (one fixed, oen removeable plater) + PSU (or HP7901, which > has only the removeable platter, but has an internal PSU) > > System tape cassette for the HP9830 > > Disk packs (of course). > > Now, The 9830 and 9866 I have, working. The HP11305 controller and both > 'cables' (I put that in quotes becase thes cable assembleis have PSBs stuffed with > ICs at at elast one end -- the 11273 has over 50 ICs in it) I also have, untested, > but I know th PSU is good and the microcde ROMs look OPK (the disassebmyl of > the mcirocode makes sense). Since everything else is standard TTL, analogue or > RAMs ICs, I think that's reparaiable if necessary. I have the scheamtics and > micorocde source for all that. > > The HP9800e emulator includes a dumo of the Mass Memory ROM, and thus I > have it in an EPROM module. > > That emualtor also has an image of the ssytem and service tapes for the 9880, > but as yet I haven'tt figured out the format of the image file or how to get them > back onto physicl cassettes. I do have another tape drive mechansim (not HP) > which sould be able to produce compatible tapes 'Just' > a little matter of figuring out how ot interface it to soemthign and use it. At least > I ahve the handbook for said drive, it includes timeing diagrams and schematics. > > Which leaves the drive and packs. This is the problem, I susepct I do havev a > 7900A. Alas it was in a skip (dumpster) and had a 2100A thrown on top of it. The > 2100A survived. THe 7900A is more sdubious. The front was samaged when it > was gtaken out of the rack too. It's missing the terminator and the little card > edge conenctor PCB, but those are easy to make I think. > > It's going ot need work. I also don't have the PSU for it. This seems ot be 120C > AC (not isolated from the mains) for the blower and spindle motros), > unregualted +/-24V and regulated +5V, +/-12V. Nothing difficult, but I can see > myself speding time and moeny making something and then find the heads will > no logner fly. I susepct replacement heads are not exactly common, I wonder if > RK05 heads can me made ot fit? > > According to the HP nanual for the drive, there was a text/service unti for this > drive, it conencted ot the side of the backplane. I cna't rememebr the model > numebr (HP13219?). Hase anyone ever seen one, or have the manuals for it? > > And now for the pack. It's the same physicla size as the RK05 pack, but > 24 (hard) sectors. Of coruse there's the fixed platter in the 7900A drive with it's > own 24 sector hard dsetoy rign nad transducer. I belived the drive will spin up > with any pack in it, so I could put a 'scratch' 12 sector RK05 in there to (a) see if > the heads will fly and (b) see if I can use the fixed paltter (which will be 24 sector) > drom the HP9830. > > If I get that far, I guess I then take an RK05 pack apart and attempt to put > anotehr 12 notches i nthe sector ring. I beleive I then have to re-centre the > platter on the hub which will be 'interesting' > > What if the heads crash? Maybe try to fit RK05 heads (I have some brand new > spares here). Maybe try to interface an RK03 or RK05 to the HP contorller. The > interface is differnet, but at least the data rate is the same. It woudl take a bit of > logic to get it to work, but... If all else fails, make a solid-state repalcement for > the drive? > > I gueess the questions at the momnet are : > > Anyone know the precise details of the tape image file format for 9800e? > > Anyone ever manage to fit RK05 heads into an HP7900? > > Anyone ever managed to cut the ectra sector notches? > > Anything knwon about the disk service unit for the HP7900? > > Does anyone have any comments/thoughts. Am I totally crazy for trying to do > this? > > -tony If you want it I do have a copy of the system tape. I also have the mass memory rom . Let me know if they are of any use for you. -Rik From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 10 10:01:39 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:01:39 +0100 Subject: RK05 & RL02 HEPA filters In-Reply-To: <50C5FB56.9010103@brouhaha.com> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> <02677f54-f926-47fe-ba34-132c24ef3ea6@email.android.com> <50C5FB56.9010103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3dc25df6ec84256c47ff464bef39b1e4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi All, Does anybody have an address were I could buy new RK05 & RL02 HEPA filters? Google is not very helpfull on this. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 10 10:12:09 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:12:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: from geneb at "Dec 10, 12 06:28:44 am" Message-ID: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> > The whole file is now available at: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip > > When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by > vendor and get new pages created for them. > > Many thanks to Al for recovering this! Great work! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When you're in love, the whole world is German! -- "Hogan's Heroes" -------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 10:16:00 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:16:00 -0800 Subject: Small joke In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:18 PM +0000 12/10/12, Liam Proven wrote: >Happy DEC-10! > >(Bemused? Check the date...) Where is the joke? It's DEC-10 Day! That's not a joke! 36-bits Forever! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 10:19:47 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:19:47 -0800 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 12:44 AM, John Wilson wrote: > - Terak 8510/a. This is a desktop machine with a standard LSI-11 CPU card > and non-standard everything else. The highlight is the 320x240 graphics > display. Runs RT-11/85 and UCSD p-System. Works in the DOS, Win32, OS/2, > and stand-alone versions of E11, but not Linux (due to linker problems). > Probably has plenty of rough edges since I've never even seen a Terak > machine in real life. For one thing it only works with QX:-bootable disks > (no QB: FDC emulation yet). > I'll be working with John Foust to get a few more QB disks read. QX and QB are Western Digital 17xx floppy controllers (not DEC compatible). A monochrome frame buffer board and a parallel keyboard would be handy if someone has a spare. I have a couple of machines but no keyboards, and they all have color frame buffer cards. Last summer, I got as far as booting a QB: P-System disk but wasn't able to get a QB: RT-11 working. Also, FWIW, 11/03's and 11/23's both worked with the P-System, but an 11/73 did not. This also reminds me that I don't think I uploaded these to /bits/Terak on bitsavers. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 10:23:45 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:23:45 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:28 AM -0800 12/10/12, geneb wrote: >The whole file is now available at: >http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip > >When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down >by vendor and get new pages created for them. > >Many thanks to Al for recovering this! Outstanding! Does this mean that Al was able to finally determine where all the disk images were? Thanks for making this available as one big ZIP! Though out of curiosity, do you feel like you're under a DOS attack yet? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 10:27:52 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:27:52 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 8:12 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The whole file is now available at: >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip >> >> When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by >> vendor and get new pages created for them. >> >> Many thanks to Al for recovering this! > > Great work! > this is what I wrote on Erik's site when cctlk was down -- What was the trick to recovery this collection? Did it turn out to be stored on those backup tapes which are pictured in the download? The short story is that CHM has been working with Don's niece to try to preserve part of his collection. I went down in July and picked up all of the media I could find, but at that time I couldn't find the machine that would have held the disk images that Don had said that he had created. Another CHM staff member was in San Diego over Thanksgiving and went over to the storage unit and found three more boxes of media. One of them had the tapes. Once I was able to figure out what they were recorded with (a 40mb Irwin floppy tape using EZTAPE) and after I replaced the tension band, it was obvious that they were the backup tapes for his archive machine (which turns out to have been called Aardvark). I was able to recover the C: partition but it took a bit of messing around with the versions of EZTAPE on C: before I was able to recover the multi-tape backup sets from D:, which was where the images were. -- Related to this. A rescue will be necessary for the remaining contents of the storage unit, if someone else in the San Diego area can coordinate it. Deborah wants to close out the lease There are still a bunch of machines and paper there which CHM can't preserve because of a storage space shortage. From ats at offog.org Mon Dec 10 10:33:24 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:33:24 +0000 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <1B620CCE-46FD-4878-A57E-BF5A803BE9A7@gmail.com> (David Riley's message of "Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:28:43 -0500") References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> <50C5A61A.1010107@brouhaha.com> <26A91A21-E0F4-4C19-97A5-C91DF84CC000@gmail.com> <50C5FB02.2070704@brouhaha.com> <1B620CCE-46FD-4878-A57E-BF5A803BE9A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: David Riley writes: > I was just wondering if anyone had run into the same thing. Yes, on a Dell 2001FP: http://offog.org/stuff/2001fp.jpg -- Adam Sampson From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 10 10:33:06 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:33:06 +0100 Subject: MTST Was: ibm mag card 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C60EC2.3010407@xs4all.nl> On 2012-12-10 08:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > It was usually called "MTST", pronounced "empty ST", which Raymond Scott once made a futuristic radio commercial for the MTST. While listening you never got the impression it was about a word processor. Only that it was a great solution. "Machines should work, People should think." Fred Jan From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 10 10:56:48 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:56:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:28 AM -0800 12/10/12, geneb wrote: >> The whole file is now available at: >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip >> >> When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by >> vendor and get new pages created for them. >> >> Many thanks to Al for recovering this! > > Outstanding! Does this mean that Al was able to finally determine where all > the disk images were? Thanks for making this available as one big ZIP! > Though out of curiosity, do you feel like you're under a DOS attack yet? It's my understanding that Al found the backup tapes from Don's imaging machine. Al originally had it online at a free download service. That's going away today (or already has), so I got it uploaded when I had a second. I'm going to be distracted by a 3D printer soon, so I don't know when I'll get to splitting it up. :) I'm not worried much about the load on the pipe - it's Jay's bandwidth. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 10 11:02:27 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:02:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > Related to this. A rescue will be necessary for the remaining contents of the > storage unit, > if someone else in the San Diego area can coordinate it. Deborah wants to > close out the lease > There are still a bunch of machines and paper there which CHM can't preserve > because of a storage > space shortage. I'd rescue it myself, but I'm in Washington. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 11:12:10 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:12:10 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 8:27 AM -0800 12/10/12, Al Kossow wrote: >The short story is that CHM has been working with Don's niece to try >to preserve part of his collection. I went down in July and picked up >all of the media I could find, but at that time I couldn't find the >machine that would have held the disk images that Don had said that >he >had created. Another CHM staff member was in San Diego over >Thanksgiving and went over to the storage unit and found three more >boxes >of media. One of them had the tapes. Once I was able to figure out >what they were recorded with (a 40mb Irwin floppy tape using EZTAPE) >and after I replaced the tension band, it was obvious that they were >the backup tapes for his archive machine (which turns out to have >been called Aardvark). I was able to recover the C: partition but it >took a bit of messing around with the versions of EZTAPE on C: before >I was able to recover the multi-tape backup sets from D:, which was >where the images were. Thank you for all your effort in this! Honestly this is an area I'm not that interested in, BUT, I really wanted to see Don's work preserved. Years ago, he helped me with info for my IMSAI-8080, which I always appreciated. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From g-wright at att.net Mon Dec 10 11:43:36 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:43:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. In-Reply-To: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: John Wilson To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, December 10, 2012 12:35:46 AM Subject: Re: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. From: Jerry Wright > assign TT1: DDA > Mount DDA0: 'file name'.dsk > > E11 comes back with can't open file. The apostrophes (or quotations marks) should be around the entire filename, not just the part before the .dsk extension. And you don't need them at all if the filename doesn't contain blanks or forward slashes or other weird characters. sorry for the confusion. "file name" was just there to show how it was laid out. test,dsk is what i used > It will let me just mount it with out a file. but if > I'm going to write to it, I would guess there needs to > be a container file. It's true, a DD: controller with no working units isn't very useful! E11 doesn't give an error message though, since it doesn't want to be picky about the order of the ASSIGN TT and MOUNT DD commands. For all it knows you were just about to attach files/etc. to DDA. I did not try to turn off the anti virus software, so many be its blocking the file creation. I will try that tonight - Jerry John Wilson D Bit From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 11:49:31 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:49:31 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Thank you for all your effort in this! Honestly this is an area I'm not > that interested in, BUT, I really wanted to see Don's work preserved. Years > ago, he helped me with info for my IMSAI-8080, which I always appreciated. Agreed. Don helped me with my Kaypro when I first got it. Very happy to see all of his work preserved. Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? I thought they might be disk labels, but the first one I looked at was a single line of digits, repeating in fistfuls. Is it metadata for the .td0 file? -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 12:04:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: OT: how I outfitted my HP 16700A Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> References: <50C56EC2.8090808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50C6243F.4050407@neurotica.com> On 12/10/2012 12:10 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I wanted to buy an equipment cart to house the huge HP 16700A logic > analyzer I bought, and I couldn't find one that would suit my needs. > > So I built it: > > http://www.techtravels.org/new_la_cart.jpg > > Specs were roughly > > * 2x2 solid wood Poplar frame construction > * (3) 2'x2' shelves > * Birch-Veneered 3/4" plywood > * 2" casters > * Monitor on left is floating above the top project area on flexible arm > * anti-static mat > * Surge protector for connecting equipment > * sliding keyboard shelf > * Ergonomically designed heights for keyboard/monitor > > It's far from perfect and weighs a ton, but it's pretty solid and I'm > happy with it. > > Thought I'd share..... Nicely done! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 12:06:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:06:05 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50C6248D.1000301@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 9:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? I bet they are dot-matrix printable labels. There are LOTS of disks with them on them. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 12:09:43 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:09:43 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 9:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? here is an example from an Alphatronic disk. There are lots of disks with these sorts of labels on them http://bitsavers.org/bits/Alphatronic/CPM/ALPHA1.jpg From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Mon Dec 10 12:24:53 2012 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:24:53 -0800 Subject: More DEC keyboards In-Reply-To: <66CDB556-2AB7-4A7D-A554-64638726116D@gmail.com> References: <50C4C8C6.1060604@gmail.com> <66CDB556-2AB7-4A7D-A554-64638726116D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, The 201 is taken but the 401 with the cracked bezel is still available. Send me your address and I will get a shipping cost to you. -Kurt On Dec 9, 2012 10:58 AM, "David Riley" wrote: > On Dec 9, 2012, at 12:22, "Kurt M. Nowak" wrote: > > > All - > > > > I have 3 more DEC keyboards available: > > > > 1) DEC LK401-AA with a hairline cracked bezel - probably easily glued > > 2) DEC LK401-AA with "gooified" feet > > 3) DEC LK201 > > > > No keys are missing and they seem mechanically sound, but they are a > little dirty. I have no means of testing them, sorry. > > > > Asking $10 (plus shipping) for box/gas/driving hassle. Higher offers > will jump to the front of the line. Take 1 or 2 or all three... I just want > to get rid of them. > > I'd be glad to take the 201 if no one else has claimed it. PayPal? Check? > Let me know the details. Shipping to 19146. > > - Dave > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 10 12:25:27 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:25:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/10/12 9:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? > > here is an example from an Alphatronic disk. There are lots of disks > with these sorts of labels on them > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Alphatronic/CPM/ALPHA1.jpg That reminds me - if anyone here has a Royal AlphaTronic PC that they'd like to part with, please contact me off list. thx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 10 12:32:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:32:15 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <50C6248D.1000301@bitsavers.org> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> <50C6248D.1000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50C62AAF.80602@sydex.com> On 12/10/2012 10:06 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/10/12 9:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? > > I bet they are dot-matrix printable labels. > There are LOTS of disks with them on them. They're boot-track images for use with the 22Disk "format" function. When a text definition file is converted to a binary one, every entry with a "LABEL" keyword and accompanying file incorporates the LBL into the binary definition. --Chuck From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Mon Dec 10 12:34:03 2012 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:34:03 -0800 Subject: More DEC keyboards In-Reply-To: <66CDB556-2AB7-4A7D-A554-64638726116D@gmail.com> References: <50C4C8C6.1060604@gmail.com> <66CDB556-2AB7-4A7D-A554-64638726116D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry...didn't see your second email with your zip! I'll get a figure to you soon... -kurt On Dec 9, 2012 10:58 AM, "David Riley" wrote: > On Dec 9, 2012, at 12:22, "Kurt M. Nowak" wrote: > > > All - > > > > I have 3 more DEC keyboards available: > > > > 1) DEC LK401-AA with a hairline cracked bezel - probably easily glued > > 2) DEC LK401-AA with "gooified" feet > > 3) DEC LK201 > > > > No keys are missing and they seem mechanically sound, but they are a > little dirty. I have no means of testing them, sorry. > > > > Asking $10 (plus shipping) for box/gas/driving hassle. Higher offers > will jump to the front of the line. Take 1 or 2 or all three... I just want > to get rid of them. > > I'd be glad to take the 201 if no one else has claimed it. PayPal? Check? > Let me know the details. Shipping to 19146. > > - Dave > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Dec 10 12:51:27 2012 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:51:27 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C62F2F.9010108@tx.rr.com> On 12/10/2012 8:28 AM, geneb wrote: > The whole file is now available at: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip > > When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by > vendor and get new pages created for them. > > Many thanks to Al for recovering this! > > g. > Wow, that was quick! Looks like it averaged about 7Mbps with peaks of double that from watching the Task Manager graph. I don't recall ever seeing a site respond like that unless it was one of the speed test things. -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! From wilson at dbit.com Mon Dec 10 13:23:35 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:23:35 -0500 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. In-Reply-To: <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:43:36AM -0800, Jerry Wright wrote: >I did not try to turn off the anti virus software, so many be its blocking the >file creation. I will try that tonight ^^^^^^^^ Maybe this is the problem -- are you expecting E11 to create the file? The MOUNT command is for attaching an emulated drive to an image file that already exists, so you need a 262,144-byte file. You can create it with PUTR on DOS (format test.dsk /tu58), or using "dd" if Linux, or actually (this is a cheesy trick but works for small drives) with E11 itself with something like: E11>set cpu 44 (get a CPU type with 22-bit addressing) E11>dump test.dsk 0:777777 (dump out 256 KB of core -- initially all zeros) John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.com Mon Dec 10 13:32:08 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:32:08 -0500 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121210193208.GB23197@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 08:19:47AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >I'll be working with John Foust to get a few more QB disks read. Beautiful! I'd better get cracking on adding the QB: emulation. >QX and QB are >Western Digital 17xx floppy controllers (not DEC compatible). Really? I've never seen these in person, but the programming model for QX: looks like something they tooled out from loose TTL (extremely primitive -- you have to issue step pulses individually with help from a 2msec timer, and then do "read header" commands until you see the sector you want and then start a read/write/write-deleted-data command quickly before it's too late). And QB: seems to be the NEC uPD765, same as a PC (which you'd think would help with emulation but doesn't at all). Just picking nits about the actual FDC hardware -- yes it's certainly not DEC compatible no matter what it is. The SD media interchange with RX01s though, right? >I have a couple of machines but no keyboards, and they all have >color frame buffer cards. They're that common? Does anyone have programming docs for the color FB? If there's stuff that uses it, I'd love to emulate it... John Wilson D Bit From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 13:37:01 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:37:01 -0800 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED. In-Reply-To: <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2012 11:27 AM, "John Wilson" wrote: > > Maybe this is the problem -- are you expecting E11 to create the file? > The MOUNT command is for attaching an emulated drive to an image file that > already exists, so you need a 262,144-byte file. You can create it with > PUTR on DOS (format test.dsk /tu58), or using "dd" if Linux, or actually > (this is a cheesy trick but works for small drives) with E11 itself with > something like: > > E11>set cpu 44 (get a CPU type with 22-bit addressing) > E11>dump test.dsk 0:777777 (dump out 256 KB of core -- initially all zeros) On Windows XP etc. I use fsutil to create empty image files. Example: fsutil file createnew test.dsk 262144 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 13:45:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:45:41 -0800 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <20121210193208.GB23197@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> <20121210193208.GB23197@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50C63BE5.9050404@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 11:32 AM, John Wilson wrote: >> QX and QB are >> Western Digital 17xx floppy controllers (not DEC compatible). > > Really? no, probably not. between this, and guessing what a .lbl file is, I should just keep my mouth shut this morning. From wilson at dbit.com Mon Dec 10 13:59:24 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:59:24 -0500 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <50C63BE5.9050404@bitsavers.org> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> <20121210193208.GB23197@dbit.dbit.com> <50C63BE5.9050404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121210195924.GA24152@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:45:41AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >between this, and guessing what a .lbl file is, I should just keep >my mouth shut this morning. Sorry, I didn't mean to take a pot-shot!!! I have dozens and dozens of .LBL files lying around and mine are all copies of dot matrix labels, so that would've been my vote too. John Wilson D Bit From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 14:00:27 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:00:27 -0800 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50C63F5B.5090001@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 8:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Last summer, I got as far as booting a QB: P-System disk but wasn't > able to get a QB: RT-11 working. > This also reminds me that I don't think I uploaded these to /bits/Terak on bitsavers. > I did put them up, under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Terak/ From g-wright at att.net Mon Dec 10 14:03:05 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... label In-Reply-To: <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1355169785.93064.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Al Kossow To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, December 10, 2012 10:17:28 AM Subject: Re: Don Maslin's archive... On 12/10/12 9:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? here is an example from an Alphatronic disk. There are lots of disks with these sorts of labels on them http://bitsavers.org/bits/Alphatronic/CPM/ALPHA1.jpg Yes, that is his label. his printer has had those 2 stripes for a long time. I have many here - Jerry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 10 14:04:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:04:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Dec 10, 12 07:56:25 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > I'm pretty sure we have all of the above, though not in working order. > However, if you need photos or a chance to study the kit, I'm sure we > can help. I know we also have an HP video on about it which covers some > setup and maintenance. I find that last statement farily hard ot beleive. The HP9880 awas introduced in 1974, video tape recording, while possible, was not common then. Are we talking about the same machine? > > I'd be only too pleased to repay your kind assistance to us. Thanks fo the kind offer, but I am not sure it's going to be that much help. I have most of the units from HP. The 9830 calcualtor and 9866 printer I know work. The 11305 cotnrolelr and th 2 cable aassemblies are compute and should be repairable, if they don;t work. I have already repaired one of the 5V PSU regualtors in the 11305 -- the 723 regualtor IC was defective. It's a metal can one and I was mildly supriesed that not only could I stil lget them, I could get an RoHS (lead-free) version, so I guess they are either still in production of have been discontiuend quite recently. But anyway. I have the ROM in an EPROM module. Seeing an original Mass Memory ROM wouldn't be vey useufl, I know waht the ROM modules look like. You are not going to weant me to take that apart if you have it, it's held gotehter by metal studs and dismantling it involves heating them with a slordering iron to sofent the plastic. In any case, I'll bet it's the same inside as every otehr HP9830 ROM modulem, 4 HP 512*8 ROM chips and a potential divider for the Vbb supply. The onl ways to get one of those are to either get the origianl module, or to put the ROM image into EPROMs and run them in an EPROM module. The system tape looks like a tape cassette. Unfortuantely there is no official way to copy binary program files on an HP9830 -- and of course this tape is full f them. So again, I have ot work out some way to read/write such tapes at the bit level, If I can do that, I can either borrow a system tape from somewhere and back it up, or I can figure out the tape file format of the HP9800e emoulator and use that data. The latter doesn't sound like any more work, I know what the drive looks like, I have one. The manauls are on the Australian site too. I jsut need to extract the drvie from whichever corner of my workshop it's hiding in and then see jsut how bad it is. Soem parts will have to be made. I jsut hope the heads are still OK... Again, I know what hte PSU looks like and have read the manuals on the museum site. I am not goign to try to copy that, I am goign to make a functional equivalent. After all, it's jsut DC power rails. I will rememebr your kind offer, and if I feel it woudl be useful to see the origianl parts, I will aks you. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 15:38:55 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:38:55 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... label In-Reply-To: <1355169785.93064.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> <1355169785.93064.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: >> On 12/10/12 9:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? > > here is an example from an Alphatronic disk. There are lots of disks > with these sorts of labels on them > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Alphatronic/CPM/ALPHA1.jpg That's rather the sort of thing I expected, but my new question is "what can make that label from these files?" In particular, I'm looking at kay2.lbl (since I have a Kaypro 2) and it's one long line of 10240 chars where it looks like a sequence of 512 of the same character in a row. For this file, it's 512 repeats of each of: 0538164927AFDIBGEJCH I see no control chars or anything to indicate printer codes. Did I manage to find a corrupt one on my first time out? -ethan From earl at retrobits.com Mon Dec 10 14:39:04 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:39:04 -0800 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:44 AM, John Wilson wrote: > After a long delay (it's hard to make big release-worthy improvements after > 19 years of development), Ersatz-11 V6.1 is done. > > The free demo/hobby version is at: > > http://www.dbit.com/demo.html > > Wow! Awesome! Thank you for the continuing work on the Ersatz-11 system. - Earl From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 10 16:03:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... label In-Reply-To: References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> <1355169785.93064.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121210135116.F32385@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Having inspected the zip file, what are the .lbl files? On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > here is an example from an Alphatronic disk. There are lots of disks > > with these sorts of labels on them > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Alphatronic/CPM/ALPHA1.jpg > That's rather the sort of thing I expected, but my new question is > "what can make that label from these files?" > In particular, I'm looking at kay2.lbl (since I have a Kaypro 2) and > it's one long line of 10240 chars where it looks like a sequence of > 512 of the same character in a row. For this file, it's 512 repeats > of each of: > 0538164927AFDIBGEJCH > I see no control chars or anything to indicate printer codes. > Did I manage to find a corrupt one on my first time out? Raw bit pattern for the printer graphics? (odd that it would stay between 30h and 48h) 10240 would be the right number of bytes for 2 tracks (or 1 cylinder of DS kaypro), but I would expect to see either a LOT of E5h or Z80 machine code How are the disk images? Teledisk seems to still be available at http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/teledisk.htm But, has anybody heard from Dave Dunfield lately? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 10 16:06:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:06:36 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... label In-Reply-To: <20121210135116.F32385@shell.lmi.net> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> <50C62567.4060501@bitsavers.org> <1355169785.93064.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121210135116.F32385@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50C65CEC.9070409@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/12 2:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, has anybody heard from Dave Dunfield lately? > Yes, I have been in contact with him. He's busy with a new job. From colineby at isallthat.com Mon Dec 10 16:16:27 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:16:27 +0000 Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1355177787.13585.8.camel@hp0> Tony - "Fairly hard to believe?" Believe it ! The tape dates from 1976. It's black and white and was distributed on U-Matic. While not in the best of condition, I've dubbed it off as an MPEG 4 for preservation purposes. It may not tell you anything new but it certainly has novelty value. Oh, and its definitely the same system. On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 20:04 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Tony, > > > > I'm pretty sure we have all of the above, though not in working order. > > However, if you need photos or a chance to study the kit, I'm sure we > > can help. I know we also have an HP video on about it which covers some > > setup and maintenance. > > I find that last statement farily hard ot beleive. The HP9880 awas > introduced in 1974, video tape recording, while possible, was not common > then. Are we talking about the same machine? > > > > > I'd be only too pleased to repay your kind assistance to us. > > Thanks fo the kind offer, but I am not sure it's going to be that much help. > > I have most of the units from HP. The 9830 calcualtor and 9866 printer I > know work. The 11305 cotnrolelr and th 2 cable aassemblies are compute > and should be repairable, if they don;t work. I have already repaired one > of the 5V PSU regualtors in the 11305 -- the 723 regualtor IC was > defective. It's a metal can one and I was mildly supriesed that not only > could I stil lget them, I could get an RoHS (lead-free) version, so I > guess they are either still in production of have been discontiuend quite > recently. But anyway. > > I have the ROM in an EPROM module. Seeing an original Mass Memory ROM > wouldn't be vey useufl, I know waht the ROM modules look like. You are > not going to weant me to take that apart if you have it, it's held > gotehter by metal studs and dismantling it involves heating them with a > slordering iron to sofent the plastic. In any case, I'll bet it's the > same inside as every otehr HP9830 ROM modulem, 4 HP 512*8 ROM chips and a > potential divider for the Vbb supply. The onl ways to get one of those > are to either get the origianl module, or to put the ROM image into > EPROMs and run them in an EPROM module. > > The system tape looks like a tape cassette. Unfortuantely there is no > official way to copy binary program files on an HP9830 -- and of course > this tape is full f them. So again, I have ot work out some way to > read/write such tapes at the bit level, If I can do that, I can either > borrow a system tape from somewhere and back it up, or I can figure out > the tape file format of the HP9800e emoulator and use that data. The > latter doesn't sound like any more work, > > I know what the drive looks like, I have one. The manauls are on the > Australian site too. I jsut need to extract the drvie from whichever > corner of my workshop it's hiding in and then see jsut how bad it is. > Soem parts will have to be made. I jsut hope the heads are still OK... > > Again, I know what hte PSU looks like and have read the manuals on the > museum site. I am not goign to try to copy that, I am goign to make a > functional equivalent. After all, it's jsut DC power rails. > > I will rememebr your kind offer, and if I feel it woudl be useful to see > the origianl parts, I will aks you. > > -tony > -- -- Colin From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 16:21:03 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:21:03 -0800 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left > corner, SQ3703As. One is marked Rev G and looks clean. The other is > a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM > marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H". > > I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if > it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but > if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's > EPROMs or PALs or whatever. This is an old thread. I finally got around to taking a look at both my DILOG TMSCP SQ3703A REV G and MSCP SQ3706A REV H controllers side by side. All of the DIP parts in sockets with labels have the same numbers on them, except for the EPROM. 13U 92771A 18U 92769A 19U 92773A 26U 92774A 34U 92770A 57U 92775B 74U 92772A The firmware on the TMSCP SQ3703A REV G is 46U 92782, REV J The firmware on the MSCP SQ3706A REV H is U46 92734, REV L As a quick test I replaced the EPROM from the TMSCP controller with the EPROM from the MSCP controller and now it does appear to be functioning as a TMSCP controller. I did have to change the CSR address from the default TMSCP address to the default MSCP address in the controller configuration menu but didn't do anything else and was then able to boot from a SCSI DISK device. I'll have to dump the EPROM contents (27512) in case anyone else has a SQ3703A TMSCP controller they would like to try as an MSCP controller. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 10 16:22:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:22:43 -0700 Subject: Terak docs (was: Ersatz-11 V6.1) In-Reply-To: <20121210193208.GB23197@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> <20121210193208.GB23197@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: In article <20121210193208.GB23197 at dbit.dbit.com>, John Wilson writes: > On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 08:19:47AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > >I have a couple of machines but no keyboards, and they all have > >color frame buffer cards. > > They're that common? Does anyone have programming docs for the color FB? > If there's stuff that uses it, I'd love to emulate it... I've gotten all the documentation I could find on bitsavers. John Foust might have more that isn't scanned yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From shumaker at att.net Mon Dec 10 16:24:47 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:24:47 -0500 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> Message-ID: <50C6612F.5010804@att.net> On 12/10/2012 3:24 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 9 Dec 2012, at 21:11 , steve shumaker wrote: > > >> On 12/9/2012 1:34 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> >> >>>> please explain what you mean by "scanning them wet".... >>>> >>> >>> >> >> the link didn't help (doesn't link to anything specific) but it did prod me into doing a google. interesting! Been scanning stuff at fairly high res for years but never heard of that technique before. makes sense though. >> > Sorry, Youtube's mobile site gave me a convoluted link on the iPhone, my manual cleanup must've mangled it. I meant this: > > > > Point is, I wet scan directly on the flatbed, no (flimsy) film holders. Excellent results. Not drum-scanning level results, but good enough for home scanning. > > There is some experimentation involved with getting the best focus. Flipping the film and adding or subtracting mylar sheets until the image plane is in near-perfect focus. > > .tsooJ > cool! Now I see what you meant. steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 16:55:42 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:55:42 -0500 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left >> corner, SQ3703As... > This is an old thread. I finally got around to taking a look at both > my DILOG TMSCP SQ3703A REV G and MSCP SQ3706A REV H controllers side > by side. All of the DIP parts in sockets with labels have the same > numbers on them, except for the EPROM. Cool! > As a quick test I replaced the EPROM from the TMSCP controller with > the EPROM from the MSCP controller and now it does appear to be > functioning as a TMSCP controller. Nice. > I did have to change the CSR > address from the default TMSCP address to the default MSCP address in > the controller configuration menu... Naturally. > but didn't do anything else and was then able to boot from a SCSI DISK device. Very good to hear. > I'll have to dump the EPROM contents (27512) in case anyone else has a > SQ3703A TMSCP controller they would like to try as an MSCP controller. I would love a pointer to this when you do it. I still don't own any S-box hardware but I'd be willing to drill out the rivets and replace the handle with one that will fit in my BA23 or BA123 (or if I could find one of those 4-slot S-Boxes that was a DEC comms controller, I do have one of the S-box CPUs for it that is really a PDP-11/53 board with different ROMs - that plus an SQ3706 would be a good start to a system). Thanks! -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 17:09:44 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:09:44 -0800 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: <50C6612F.5010804@att.net> References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> <50C6612F.5010804@att.net> Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0500 12/10/12, steve shumaker wrote: >On 12/10/2012 3:24 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>Sorry, Youtube's mobile site gave me a convoluted link on the >>iPhone, my manual cleanup must've mangled it. I meant this: >> >> >> >>Point is, I wet scan directly on the flatbed, no (flimsy) film >>holders. Excellent results. Not drum-scanning level results, but >>good enough for home scanning. >> >>There is some experimentation involved with getting the best focus. >>Flipping the film and adding or subtracting mylar sheets until the >>image plane is in near-perfect focus. >> >>.tsooJ >> >cool! Now I see what you meant. > >steve That is pretty cool, while I'm familiar with wet scanning, I've not heard of adjusting the focus via mylar sheets. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 17:15:30 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:15:30 -0600 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> <50C6612F.5010804@att.net> Message-ID: interesting indeed i'm guna have to look into this On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:24 PM -0500 12/10/12, steve shumaker wrote: > >> On 12/10/2012 3:24 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> >>> Sorry, Youtube's mobile site gave me a convoluted link on the iPhone, my >>> manual cleanup must've mangled it. I meant this: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> Point is, I wet scan directly on the flatbed, no (flimsy) film holders. >>> Excellent results. Not drum-scanning level results, but good enough for >>> home scanning. >>> >>> There is some experimentation involved with getting the best focus. >>> Flipping the film and adding or subtracting mylar sheets until the image >>> plane is in near-perfect focus. >>> >>> .tsooJ >>> >>> cool! Now I see what you meant. >> >> steve >> > > That is pretty cool, while I'm familiar with wet scanning, I've not heard > of adjusting the focus via mylar sheets. > > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.**com | > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 10 17:34:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:34:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ancient Video (Was: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: <1355177787.13585.8.camel@hp0> References: <1355177787.13585.8.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <20121210152355.M32385@shell.lmi.net> > "Fairly hard to believe?" Believe it ! > The tape dates from 1976. It's black and white and was distributed on > U-Matic. While not in the best of condition, I've dubbed it off as an > MPEG 4 for preservation purposes. It may not tell you anything new but > it certainly has novelty value. Oh, and its definitely the same system. B&W reel to reel goes WAYBACK. I first used it in 1968, and that was with obsolete equipment. Sony CV series portable systems gave way to Sony AV series by about 1970. U-Matic (cassette) came out about 1971 Quasar VX? home cassette units came out about 1976 Betamax and VHS came out about 1977. "First"??!? depends on whether you mean prototypes (about 1971) or retail "Best" prob'ly Beta, but that isn't what decides what ends up dominating the market (cf. 3" V 3.5" diskettes) How long before DVD and BluRry are gone? From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 10 17:36:20 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:36:20 -0500 Subject: ibm mag card 2 References: Message-ID: -------------- Original Message: Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 00:59:51 -0600 From: Adrian Stoness > got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring for 20 bucks http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.jpg > curious if theres a way to hook it up? -------------- Reply: I've still got a couple of those drives from a Redactron WP, a dual-drive version of IBM's MC/ST; have never tried to do anything with them and certainly don't know anything about the IBM interface or protocol, but the drive itself is kind of like a floppy, only linear. The usual read/write heads, a solenoid (12V IIRC) to step from track to track, and a motor drive to actually move the card in and out to read/write it. Should make an interesting project; you could even put in some photocells and turn it into a punched or mark sense card reader... m From djg at pdp8online.com Mon Dec 10 19:19:07 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:19:07 -0500 Subject: RK05 & RL02 HEPA filters In-Reply-To: <3dc25df6ec84256c47ff464bef39b1e4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <3dc25df6ec84256c47ff464bef39b1e4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20121211011907.GA6807@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 05:01:39PM +0100, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anybody have an address were I could buy new RK05 & RL02 HEPA filters? > >From comp.sys.dec I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n 1213097) at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California (www.thefilterfactory.com), phone 805.733.2180. They have 40 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, shipping for a single filter to 60091 was $8.27. I ordered one to verify dimensions and construction - perfect match for the original part. The filters were manufactured by HEPA Corporation (still in business) but minimum order quantity from HEPA is 100 units. Filter Factory will _not_ be ordering after the current stock is gone. Get'em while you can! Jack From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 19:40:13 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:40:13 -0600 Subject: RK05 & RL02 HEPA filters In-Reply-To: <20121211011907.GA6807@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <3dc25df6ec84256c47ff464bef39b1e4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <20121211011907.GA6807@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: theres a guy on ebay selling rk05 filters On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 7:19 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 05:01:39PM +0100, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Does anybody have an address were I could buy new RK05 & RL02 HEPA > filters? > > > From comp.sys.dec > > I found a cache of NOS RL01/2 absolute filters (equivalent to DEC p/n > 1213097) at the Filter Factory in Santa Ynez, California > (www.thefilterfactory.com), > phone 805.733.2180. They have 40 in stock. Price is $28.60 each, > shipping for a single filter to 60091 was $8.27. I ordered one to verify > dimensions and construction - perfect match for the original part. The > filters were manufactured by HEPA Corporation (still in business) but > minimum order quantity from HEPA is 100 units. Filter Factory will _not_ > be ordering after the current stock is gone. > > Get'em while you can! > > Jack > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 21:07:45 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:07:45 -0600 Subject: Cray Superserver 6400 FS spotted on VC Forum In-Reply-To: <50C26FCA.8070900@sydex.com> References: <50C26FCA.8070900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?34695-Vintage-Cray-Superserver-6400-amp-Compaq-Proliant-6000-server > > If anyone's interested. This is a Sparc-based machine, at least a full rack worth of hardware. I was getting tempted by it but fortunately it turned out to be far away from me, near Houston, TX. Hope someone wants to adopt it! j From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 10 21:26:53 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:26:53 -0600 Subject: Scanning sheet film In-Reply-To: References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <50C4C70C.2020401@att.net> <7A52C71A-9720-43F8-B39B-51F4A4E695A1@gmail.com> <50C4F065.50008@att.net> Message-ID: <201212110329.qBB3THX5099553@billy.ezwind.net> At 02:24 AM 12/10/2012, Joost van de Griek wrote: >Point is, I wet scan directly on the flatbed, no (flimsy) film holders. Excellent results. Not drum-scanning level results, but good enough for home scanning. I was tinkering with wet scanning this summer. I had some 100-year-old curled silver prints my great-grandfather had made. The dark areas of the print had gone shiny. I wet them with isopropyl, which relaxed the paper and darkened the blacks, then scanned. It worked well. I saw the online explanations of wet scanning but I hadn't been sufficiently motivated to pay for the somewhat expensive fluid in this case where I didn't need to scan negatives. What's in the fluid? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 10 21:36:58 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:36:58 -0600 Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.1 In-Reply-To: <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> References: <201212100844.qBA8iErj014404@dbit.dbit.com> <50C60BA3.1050002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201212110402.qBB42SJA099891@billy.ezwind.net> I'm very grateful for Wilson's E11 work, too! A Terak emulator, no matter how rough, has been on my wish list for many, many years. I'm assembling the box of floppies to send to Al Kossow. This will include a pristine set of nearly everything for the 8510 series, as well as my ultra-rare Terak Winchester hard drive floppies. I'll also include for Bitsavers the scanned set of three engineering notebooks I received from the estate of Terak's founder, Bill Mayberry, and all the other Terak docs I've scanned. - John From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 10 22:19:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:19:15 -0700 Subject: New documents on manx rss feed Message-ID: FYI -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 23:12:14 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 00:12:14 -0500 Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: <1355177787.13585.8.camel@hp0> References: <1355177787.13585.8.camel@hp0> Message-ID: Can you post that video somewhere (YouTube?). I've got a 9831A that I am trying to refurb and put in our museum. Any information is useful. On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Tony - > > "Fairly hard to believe?" Believe it ! > > The tape dates from 1976. It's black and white and was distributed on > U-Matic. While not in the best of condition, I've dubbed it off as an > MPEG 4 for preservation purposes. It may not tell you anything new but > it certainly has novelty value. Oh, and its definitely the same system. > > > On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 20:04 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > I'm pretty sure we have all of the above, though not in working order. > > > However, if you need photos or a chance to study the kit, I'm sure we > > > can help. I know we also have an HP video on about it which covers some > > > setup and maintenance. > > > > I find that last statement farily hard ot beleive. The HP9880 awas > > introduced in 1974, video tape recording, while possible, was not common > > then. Are we talking about the same machine? > > > > > > > > I'd be only too pleased to repay your kind assistance to us. > > > > Thanks fo the kind offer, but I am not sure it's going to be that much > help. > > > > I have most of the units from HP. The 9830 calcualtor and 9866 printer I > > know work. The 11305 cotnrolelr and th 2 cable aassemblies are compute > > and should be repairable, if they don;t work. I have already repaired one > > of the 5V PSU regualtors in the 11305 -- the 723 regualtor IC was > > defective. It's a metal can one and I was mildly supriesed that not only > > could I stil lget them, I could get an RoHS (lead-free) version, so I > > guess they are either still in production of have been discontiuend quite > > recently. But anyway. > > > > I have the ROM in an EPROM module. Seeing an original Mass Memory ROM > > wouldn't be vey useufl, I know waht the ROM modules look like. You are > > not going to weant me to take that apart if you have it, it's held > > gotehter by metal studs and dismantling it involves heating them with a > > slordering iron to sofent the plastic. In any case, I'll bet it's the > > same inside as every otehr HP9830 ROM modulem, 4 HP 512*8 ROM chips and a > > potential divider for the Vbb supply. The onl ways to get one of those > > are to either get the origianl module, or to put the ROM image into > > EPROMs and run them in an EPROM module. > > > > The system tape looks like a tape cassette. Unfortuantely there is no > > official way to copy binary program files on an HP9830 -- and of course > > this tape is full f them. So again, I have ot work out some way to > > read/write such tapes at the bit level, If I can do that, I can either > > borrow a system tape from somewhere and back it up, or I can figure out > > the tape file format of the HP9800e emoulator and use that data. The > > latter doesn't sound like any more work, > > > > I know what the drive looks like, I have one. The manauls are on the > > Australian site too. I jsut need to extract the drvie from whichever > > corner of my workshop it's hiding in and then see jsut how bad it is. > > Soem parts will have to be made. I jsut hope the heads are still OK... > > > > Again, I know what hte PSU looks like and have read the manuals on the > > museum site. I am not goign to try to copy that, I am goign to make a > > functional equivalent. After all, it's jsut DC power rails. > > > > I will rememebr your kind offer, and if I feel it woudl be useful to see > > the origianl parts, I will aks you. > > > > -tony > > > > > -- > > -- Colin > From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 00:36:51 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:36:51 -0800 Subject: Can anyone ID these 1960's military computer models ? In-Reply-To: <50C2644F.5060206@gmail.com> References: <50BBFCAE.1040800@gmail.com> <50BCF554.7020905@gmail.com> <201212031953.OAA21388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD0B74.6040407@gmail.com> <201212040528.AAA24242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50BD9C7A.4000501@gmail.com> <50BFDDB3.50205@gmail.com> <50BFE627.8030807@bitsavers.org> <50BFEB01.2020706@jwsss.com> <50C2644F.5060206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C6D483.4050300@gmail.com> On 12/7/2012 1:49 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/5/2012 11:53 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> looks like thats a vacume tape drive >> >> > I just got them in the mail today. They went to the trouble of running > what looks like actual magnetic tape around the reels and into loops > in each window. The computer guts appear to be a small photograph on > an actual system glued on. I wonder what these were originally for. > There are no markings at all on them. Since none of the info I found > online mentions a tape drive for these and the tape drive is way over > detailed maybe it was someone trying to sell the Navy a tape drive for > these. In the downtime I missed a couple of responses. Here is a pic with a reference for scale. It's a model m keyboard. I had had a bit of a coffee issue this morning. Ignore the random stains. http://imgur.com/a/1BCqD#G46Oc From steve at tronola.com Mon Dec 10 18:44:58 2012 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:44:58 -0500 Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201212110045.qBB0j1IH097124@billy.ezwind.net> At 05:53 PM 12/10/2012, you wrote: >> I find that last statement farily hard ot beleive. The HP9880 awas >> introduced in 1974, video tape recording, while possible, was not common >> then. Are we talking about the same machine? --- HP had an early and innovative television operation. They used it to offer an extensive library of training programs to customers, as well as their own personnel. If I recall correctly, it helped communicate the "HP Way" to their far-flung divisions, around the World. In the 1972 catalog, they already had a whole library of video tape training programs. A photo there shows what looks like a Sony 1/2" reel-to-reel video recorder, like the ones which I remember seeing in my college days. Of course, the original Hewlett Packard company was very different from the modern day HP computer company. Much of the original operation was spun off as Agilent Technologies in 1999. No doubt, that is where the ghosts of Bill and Dave prefer to hang out, these days :) Sorry to go on about this side-topic but their innovative commitment to television content production is one of the (many) things which always struck me as making HP special. Steve L. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 18:46:57 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:46:57 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 112, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Chuck Guzis > Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 10:21:43 -0800 > Subject: Re: ibm mag card 2 > On 12/08/2012 10:59 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> got this thing kicking around picked it up in the spring for 20 bucks >> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/**7250/7547228432_e981da5a28_b.**jpg >> >> curious if theres a way to hook it up? >> > > It looks to be from an IBM MC Selectric: > > http://ibmcomposer.org/joomla/**index.php?option=com_content&** > view=article&id=50&Itemid=65 > > I'll bet that the folks who run the Golfball typewriter group on Yahoo! > probably have a manual for it. > > --Chuck > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has Mag Card Selectric Composer. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/super-computers/small-systems-at-ricm/ibm-magcard-ii-selectric-typewriter -- Michael Thompson From pjfitzpatrick207 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 20:15:54 2012 From: pjfitzpatrick207 at gmail.com (Pat Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:15:54 -0600 Subject: 10K ECL Message-ID: Hi Folks, As part of my ongoing attempt to de-clutter my life, I am purging my antique IC collection. I have a whole pile of 10K ECL chips left over from a project a number of years back and am wondering if anyone has any use for such. If so, let me know and I'll make a list. I KNOW I'll never use them again. Thanks, Pat From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Dec 11 01:53:16 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 07:53:16 +0000 Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: Spot on. The video in question is part of a bulk donation from an HP training centre. Its one of approximately 150 such titles in the TNMOC archive. They were distributed on U-matic and later VHS. Nearly all, even our UK-based set, are NTSC encoded. We have a little side project to dub them down to digital as a good 50% or more of this stock suffer from sticky tape syndrome. Even with periodic baking, the material is under threat of decay. I should note here, the TNMOC material was not donated with broadcast rights attached, but simply as a research resource. We don't have blanket coverage to YouTube the lot at present. All access will therefore have to treated as a normal research request. I'll happily relay all research requests back to the museum, though, and facilitate. Meanwhile, if any of you have the right contacts with HP to provide blanket YouTube publication rights please put them onto me and I'll try and get something sorted with our trustees. --Colin Steve Lafferty wrote: >At 05:53 PM 12/10/2012, you wrote: >>> I find that last statement farily hard ot beleive. The HP9880 awas >>> introduced in 1974, video tape recording, while possible, was not common >>> then. Are we talking about the same machine? > >--- HP had an early and innovative television operation. They used it to offer an extensive library of training programs to customers, as well as their own personnel. If I recall correctly, it helped communicate the "HP Way" to their far-flung divisions, around the World. In the 1972 catalog, they already had a whole library of video tape training programs. A photo there shows what looks like a Sony 1/2" reel-to-reel video recorder, like the ones which I remember seeing in my college days. Of course, the original Hewlett Packard company was very different from the modern day HP computer company. Much of the original operation was spun off as Agilent Technologies in 1999. No doubt, that is where the ghosts of Bill and Dave prefer to hang out, these days :) > >Sorry to go on about this side-topic but their innovative commitment to television content production is one of the (many) things which always struck me as making HP special. > >Steve L. > > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Dec 11 09:02:48 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 07:02:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need pen for Dauphin DTR-1 Message-ID: Has anyone got a pen for the Dauphin DTR-1 they are willing to sell? Please reply to me directly if you do. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From paul0926 at comcast.net Tue Dec 11 08:26:13 2012 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 07:26:13 -0700 Subject: System 362 Message-ID: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> In case you have not seen this. Sorry if it is a repeat, but this is the first I have seen it. http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Dec 11 10:21:33 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 08:21:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF Archive Fund Raiser Sale (Follow Up) Message-ID: Folks, Forgive me, I do not follow the CC list so I didn't realize some comments and questions had arisen from my recent announcement of a fund raiser sale. First, as some bright fellows have already made clear, this is simply an offer to sell certain select items from what I have referred to as the "VCF Archives" unofficially since about the beginning (of the VCF). I am offering only duplicate machines for which I don't have an obvious need and that would be better off in someone else's hands in exchange for funds to secure the rest of the collection. There are only so many Altairs, Sol-20s and Cromemcos that a collection needs. As to the circumstances that have brought me to this point, that telling will have to wait for another day. It's a long story that would explain why I have been hibernating from the VCF for several years now (something I didn't initially intend to do but that became necessary over time). Most people wouldn't be prepared for it anyway, as it represents a departure from the person I was in this community for so long. Note, I did not say I am departing the community (not that I haven't had only a peripheral participation for the last several years) but that the person you all once knew has moved on. My interest in vintage computers remains, but it is an interest that has necessarily had to be put on the back burner while the universe imposes its will on me and I faithfully abide. This current operation is a winding down of Phase I of a life's work that will resume at the proper temporal markers. I will address some comments made in the original thread that are deserving of an answer. I invented the Vintage Computer Festival as a result of a discussion that I initiated on this list in the spring of 1997. Since then it has sprouted several sister events, including VCF East (presently the largest VCF event), VCF Midwest, VCF Southwest, VCF Southeast (just formed, produced by David Greelish of Historically Brewed fame), VCF Europa (Munich), and VCF UK. All of these events (except for the European events, which operate autonomously) can be accessed through the VCF portal (http://vintage.org) (historical note: remember when everyone was trying to create a "portal" to the internet in the early days? :) The main VCF held 10 regular events from 1997-2007 (skipping 2001, where the event was scheduled the week of 9/11). At the peak of the series we had about 600 attendees, and attendance for the last 3 shows was in excess of 500 visitors each. Ten is a good number. It is completion, and a new beginning. I had intended to take a hiatus from the VCF for a year. I was talked out of it on the condition that those who did the talking would be around the following year to contribute to the production of the event, as I no longer was willing to carry the full load of producing it (which is a failure of mine to properly delegate). No serious effort was mounted, as this was 2008, a financial collapse was imminent, and I had my hands full with other matters. I took my hiatus as intended. One year turned into 2, then 3, and now 5. The VCF is not done, but I believe I just may be with it, at least for now, other than a cursory hand in maintaining the website to support the sister events, and the main event, in the event someone finally comes forward to pick up and run with it. Quite frankly I became bored with the format. Don't get me wrong, the VCF is still a fun event no matter which one you attend, because it's all about old computers and old friends, and whenever those two combine then Good Times are had. But I wanted to do something fresh, something new, something absolutely mind-blowing. I was hoping to startup again in 2011, but it was not to be. Now, I'm looking to pass on the mantle to some sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Hambitious devotee who doesn't mind losing up to 3 months out of their life every year to continue producing the event. To clear up some misconceptions about the "Vintage Computer Festival" as an entity: - the VCF is not a corporate non-profit entity; - the VCF has never been a corporate non-profit entity; - I once considered attaining corporate "non profit" status for the VCF but instinctively decided against it, a decision that has proven its wisdom over time; - the VCF will likely never be a corporate non-profit entity; - if you consider the finances (revenue/expenses) of the VCF event in total, it probably did run as a "not for profit" all those years; it can be a profitable event, but it cetainly wasn't for the first 4 years; - while the "VCF Archives" is the unofficial name for my collection, it is in fact my personal collection, in the same way that the VCF is my event; it is all just my property that I offer to others for use through the VCF events and private arrangements; the fact is the collection has always been open to hobbyists at little or no charge throughout the years, and I have done well renting my services and pieces from the collection to various commercial interests over the past dozen years, including law firms and film production companies; - any improprieties suggested as a result of any of this are ignorant speculation. I believe that covers everything. Thanks to all those who have responded to my initial inquiry. Forgive me for not responding until today but I will be addressing each inquiry this morning. New inquiries are still welcome. I will also be posting specific items for sale to the list (I don't use eBay) and will eventually be relaunching the Vintage Computer Marketplace to conduct regular auctions of both my and others' vintage computer items. Lastly, I am not soliciting donations, but if someone feels compelled then I will not refuse it right now. I would consider any amount to be a blessing. Please contact me privately. I will follow this thread in case any further response is required. As always, I can be reached directly through private e-mail. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 11 10:39:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 08:39:11 -0800 Subject: Paying work: Read a 9-track VAX tape in So. Cal. Message-ID: <50C761AF.1020401@sydex.com> I have a customer in southern California who needs a 9-track tape from a VAX read and transcribed to something readable by modern equipment. I could do it, but it's not worth the hassle for a single tape for me. Anyone in the area want to give it a try? This is a paying job, not charity. If so, contact me with your details and I'll put you in touch. --Chuck From christopher1400 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 09:32:45 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 07:32:45 -0800 Subject: Need pen for Dauphin DTR-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can find one, I've heard the old Fujitsu pens work. Somewhere I have mine that burnt up (wrong polarity cord :L) and it didn't have the stylus either, and I was told to find a Fujitsu one that takes batteries, the newer ones are Wacom based and are powered from the digitizer, and these aren't. From lee_courtney at acm.org Tue Dec 11 10:19:38 2012 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 08:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google with Your IBM 360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1355242778.97252.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I wish I had this much free time:?http://www.masswerk.at/google60/? ? Lee Courtney From jon at jonworld.com Tue Dec 11 11:19:29 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:19:29 -0500 Subject: Google with Your IBM 360 In-Reply-To: <1355242778.97252.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355242778.97252.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think we broke it. Google search API quota exceeded :( On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Lee Courtney (ACM) wrote: > I wish I had this much free time: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > > Lee Courtney > -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 11 11:28:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:28:52 -0800 Subject: Paying work: Read a 9-track VAX tape in No. Cal. In-Reply-To: <50C761AF.1020401@sydex.com> References: <50C761AF.1020401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50C76D54.5090401@sydex.com> Not southern California, but Northern, sorry. Specifically, the Novato area. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:38:26 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:38:26 -0600 Subject: Google with Your IBM 360 In-Reply-To: References: <1355242778.97252.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i think i broke it with telling it to search cbc On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I think we broke it. Google search API quota exceeded :( > > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Lee Courtney (ACM) > wrote: > > > I wish I had this much free time: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > > > > > Lee Courtney > > > > > > -- > -Jon > Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:47:31 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:47:31 -0600 Subject: Google with Your IBM 360 In-Reply-To: References: <1355242778.97252.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: its even got spacewar set up... On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i think i broke it with telling it to search cbc > > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> I think we broke it. Google search API quota exceeded :( >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Lee Courtney (ACM) >> wrote: >> >> > I wish I had this much free time: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ >> > >> > >> > Lee Courtney >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> -Jon >> Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. >> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:18:49 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:18:49 -0500 Subject: Google with Your IBM 360 In-Reply-To: References: <1355242778.97252.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I think we broke it. Google search API quota exceeded :( At least they fixed the typo on the punch card image (it said "SEACH" not "SEARCH" when it first debuted). Maybe it's my browser (Firefox) but the tape motion animation didn't seem "fluid" to me. If you didn't spend uncountable amounts of hours watching tape spin, perhaps it's not noticeable. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:20:55 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:20:55 +0000 Subject: Small joke In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 December 2012 16:16, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:18 PM +0000 12/10/12, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Happy DEC-10! >> >> (Bemused? Check the date...) > > Where is the joke? It's DEC-10 Day! That's not a joke! 36-bits Forever! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 11 12:42:13 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:42:13 -0800 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! Message-ID: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> I just thought that I'd let folks know that I scored a bit (ok quite a bit) of unobtainium in the form of Unibus receivers and transceivers. It wasn't cheap but I just received 100 DS8640Ns (Unibus receivers) and 500 DS8641Ns (Unibus transceivers)! I would have gotten some Unibus drivers too if they were available. I think I'm now set (including the stock that I had previously) for the projects that I need them for (now I just need the time to actually work on those projects). Before anyone asks, these were obtained through a supplier on the secondary chip market. They only deal with commercial entities (one of the reasons I have one) and aren't interested in "small" quantities. It's hard to get them interested in an order under $1000 (and my total order for the above parts was well over that). TTFN - Guy From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Dec 11 12:58:15 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:58:15 +0100 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121211195815.f88983883f5f38dede87f356@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:55:42 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'll have to dump the EPROM contents (27512) in case anyone else has a > > SQ3703A TMSCP controller they would like to try as an MSCP controller. > I would love a pointer to this when you do it. As I own a SQ706A I'd like to have this too. The MSCP and the TMSCP firmware... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:58:33 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:58:33 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: those are the chips used in wire raping boards? On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I just thought that I'd let folks know that I scored a bit (ok quite a > bit) of unobtainium > in the form of Unibus receivers and transceivers. It wasn't cheap but I > just received > 100 DS8640Ns (Unibus receivers) and 500 DS8641Ns (Unibus transceivers)! I > would > have gotten some Unibus drivers too if they were available. > > I think I'm now set (including the stock that I had previously) for the > projects that I > need them for (now I just need the time to actually work on those > projects). > > Before anyone asks, these were obtained through a supplier on the > secondary chip > market. They only deal with commercial entities (one of the reasons I > have one) > and aren't interested in "small" quantities. It's hard to get them > interested in an order > under $1000 (and my total order for the above parts was well over that). > > TTFN - Guy > From wilson at dbit.com Tue Dec 11 13:00:38 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:00:38 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 10:42:13AM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >I just thought that I'd let folks know that I scored a bit (ok quite a bit) of >unobtainium in the form of Unibus receivers and transceivers. In case anyone cares, I have DS3862Ns out the wazoo that I'd sell to anyone at my cost ($5/ea) in any qty. These are basically a 20-pin 74LS245-like variant of the DS8641N (so it does 8 bits instead of 4, with a direction control for all 8 so you can't do things one bit at a time like with the DS8641N but you get twice as many bits for only four extra pins). Specs supposedly improved from the DS8641N but I forget in what way (slew rate limited?). I (i.e. D Bit) bought a lifetime supply (2,000) back when they were being EOLed but then RoHS happened and I won't be using them after all. John Wilson D Bit From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Dec 11 13:12:35 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:12:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... Message-ID: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 06:28:44 -0800 (PST) >From: geneb < geneb at deltasoft.com > >Subject: Don Maslin's archive... > >The whole file is now available at: >http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip > >When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by >vendor and get new pages created for them. > >Many thanks to Al for recovering this! > >g. I'd also like to offer my thanks to those involved. It's good to see a happy ending to this saga. Just an FYI, it looks like I will have to download the file at home, because when I try at work, the anti-virus software in our SonicWall firewall appliance blocks the download, saying it detects the "Dos.Cursor" trojan. Bob From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 11 13:23:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:23:53 -0700 Subject: VCF Archive Fund Raiser Sale (Follow Up) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for clearing up the confusion, Sellam. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 11 13:45:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:45:07 -0800 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > those are the chips used in wire raping boards? You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of it referred to as "wire raping". --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 13:55:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:55:38 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4431A0A5-CE61-49AD-905E-A462FAB774FA@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 2:00 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 10:42:13AM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I just thought that I'd let folks know that I scored a bit (ok quite a bit) of >> unobtainium in the form of Unibus receivers and transceivers. > > In case anyone cares, I have DS3862Ns out the wazoo that I'd sell to anyone at > my cost ($5/ea) in any qty. These are basically a 20-pin 74LS245-like variant > of the DS8641N (so it does 8 bits instead of 4, with a direction control for > all 8 so you can't do things one bit at a time like with the DS8641N but you > get twice as many bits for only four extra pins). Specs supposedly improved > from the DS8641N but I forget in what way (slew rate limited?). I (i.e. D Bit) > bought a lifetime supply (2,000) back when they were being EOLed but then RoHS > happened and I won't be using them after all. I might be persuaded to buy a few for characterization purposes (I'll let you know off-list if that's the case), but I'm curious to know if you're working on a RoHS/modern replacement. I'm currently prototyping a board using comparators for the receivers and discrete FETs for the drivers (no ICs I could find had compatible slew rate, capacitance and drive strength with DEC's specs), but I'd be curious to know if you'd found anything better. If not, I'll be glad to share my results (with everyone) once I actually get the time to finish the prototype. In any case, a modern replacement is likely to cost somewhat less per pin than $1 in any realistic quantity, and will probably beat $.625 per pin (at the cost of some board real estate, which for a modern PLD-based implementation shouldn't be an issue). - Dave From spedraja at ono.com Tue Dec 11 13:57:52 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:57:52 +0100 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> References: <201212101612.qBAGC9L628115158@floodgap.com> <50C60D88.2090607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Congratulations to everyone involved. And great technical work, by the way. Regards Sergio 2012/12/10 Al Kossow > On 12/10/12 8:12 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> The whole file is now available at: >>> http://www.retroarchive.org/**maslin/maslin_archive.zip >>> >>> When time allows I'll break the disk and ROM image collections down by >>> vendor and get new pages created for them. >>> >>> Many thanks to Al for recovering this! >>> >> > [...] I was able to recover the C: partition but it took a bit of >> messing around with the versions of EZTAPE on C: before I was able to >> recover the multi-tape backup sets from D:, which was where the images were. > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 14:27:23 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:27:23 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... Message-ID: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 - Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 14:39:02 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:39:02 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Riley wrote: > Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). > > http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 > Winning bid: US $1,136.11 [ 2 bids ] From tingox at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:54:23 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:54:23 +0100 Subject: System 362 In-Reply-To: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> References: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Paul Heller wrote: > In case you have not seen this. Sorry if it is a repeat, but this is the first I have seen it. > > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ Neat. Now, which operator do we talk to in order to get the quota increased? :-) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:00:20 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:00:20 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com>, Message-ID: those aren't "first of the line" vaxen, that would be the 750 or 730the 780 came later > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:39:02 -0800 > Subject: Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). > > > > http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 > > > > Winning bid: US $1,136.11 [ 2 bids ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:11:07 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:11:07 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > those aren't "first of the line" vaxen, that would be the 750 or 730the 780 came later 11/780 - 1977 11/750 - 1980 11/730 - 1982 -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 15:12:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:12:08 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <50C7A1A8.4070907@neurotica.com> On 12/11/2012 04:00 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > those aren't "first of the line" vaxen, that would be the 750 or 730the 780 came later Uh no. The 11/780 was the first, followed by the 11/750. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 11 15:14:58 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:14:58 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <37E50120-F946-4786-BEEB-B5714A1791D3@shiresoft.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > those aren't "first of the line" vaxen, that would be the 750 or 730the 780 came later Huh? 11/780 was introduced in 1978 11/750 was introduced in 1980 11/730 was introduced in 1982 So by almost any definition I can imagine, the 11/780 was the first of the VAXen. TTFN - Guy > >> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:39:02 -0800 >> Subject: Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... >> From: glen.slick at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). >>> >>> http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 >>> >> >> Winning bid: US $1,136.11 [ 2 bids ] > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:19:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:19:25 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <9EB97588-52B2-4C60-9AFA-ABF81C181FBB@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:39:02 -0800 >> Subject: Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... >> From: glen.slick at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). >>> >>> http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 >>> >> >> Winning bid: US $1,136.11 [ 2 bids ] > > those aren't "first of the line" vaxen, that would be the 750 or 730the 780 came later I was under the impression that the 750 and 730 were subsequent "cost-reduced" models to the 780. Is that incorrect? - Dave From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:22:14 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:22:14 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com>, , , Message-ID: and here I always thought the model was a notation of the year. there's another myth busted... thanks Dan. > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:11:07 -0500 > Subject: Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > those aren't "first of the line" vaxen, that would be the 750 or 730the 780 came later > > 11/780 - 1977 > 11/750 - 1980 > 11/730 - 1982 > > -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:23:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:23:45 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). >> >> http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 >> > > Winning bid: US $1,136.11 [ 2 bids ] Anyone here get it? That is a STEAL for that machine; the freight is probably going to come close to it, if it doesn't exceed it. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 15:26:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:26:41 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> On 12/11/2012 03:27 PM, David Riley wrote: > Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry (because I don't have the space or money for it). I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:38:54 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:38:54 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> Message-ID: ? On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >> > > You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating rat's > nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of it referred > to as "wire raping". > > --Chuck > > > From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 11 15:55:03 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:55:03 -0000 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1CFDA673139640AF8F8D29728F728683@ANTONIOPC> Dan Gahlinger [dgahling at hotmail.com] wrote: > and here I always thought the model was a notation of the > year. there's another myth busted... thanks Dan. The VAX-11/780 is mentioned here: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/digital/timeline/197 7.htm. There's no sign of a VAX-11/725 here: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/digital/timeline/197 2.htm :-) You must be thinking of Windows :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:01:53 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:01:53 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. > > I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability > to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. > > -Dave > They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it anyway but, I had to ask. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 11 16:02:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:02:27 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <9EB97588-52B2-4C60-9AFA-ABF81C181FBB@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com>, <9EB97588-52B2-4C60-9AFA-ABF81C181FBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C7AD73.2040304@sydex.com> On 12/11/2012 01:19 PM, David Riley wrote: > I was under the impression that the 750 and 730 were subsequent > "cost-reduced" models to the 780. Is that incorrect? They had better be--one of the big selling points to us of the 750 was that you got a considerable hunk of the 780's processing power for a lot less money. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:14:30 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:14:30 -0800 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: <20121211195815.f88983883f5f38dede87f356@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121211195815.f88983883f5f38dede87f356@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> > I'll have to dump the EPROM contents (27512) in case anyone else has a >> > SQ3703A TMSCP controller they would like to try as an MSCP controller. >> I would love a pointer to this when you do it. > As I own a SQ706A I'd like to have this too. The MSCP and the TMSCP > firmware... I dumped the SQ3703A (TMSCP) and SQ3706A (MSCP) firmware (27512) from my two controllers boards (quad wide). This firmware is not simultaneous TMSCP and MSCP. That would be the SQ3709. I have never seen one of those and have no idea if it might actually be the same board with different firmware. If anyone on the list happens to have an SQ3709 I'd like to see a high resolution picture of one. I also have examples of SQ703A (TMSCP) and SQ706A (MSCP) controller boards (dual wide). These two boards have physically different designs. I haven't tried swapping the firmware around on these two as I had doubts that it would work. These two are also not not simultaneous TMSCP and MSCP. That would be the SQ739, which I have also never seen. So anyway, I don't have anything interesting for your SQ706A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 16:22:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:22:37 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> On 12/11/2012 05:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >> >> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability >> to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. >> >> -Dave >> > > They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and > they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it > anyway but, I had to ask. You could just rent a truck and go pick it up for a lot less than that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:36:08 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:36:08 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50C7B558.2060209@gmail.com> On 12/11/2012 2:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and >> they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it >> anyway but, I had to ask. > You could just rent a truck and go pick it up for a lot less than that. > > -Dave > They don't allow you to pickup because they are actually located inside a prison. From shumaker at att.net Tue Dec 11 16:37:55 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:37:55 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C7B5C3.7030706@att.net> On 12/11/2012 5:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >> >> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the >> ability to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport >> it. >> >> -Dave >> > > They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and > they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it > anyway but, I had to ask. > yup same here (bout 60 miles). My problem was what to do when it shows up at the house. lol. steve From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:40:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:40:01 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507170AA-D69D-4D42-83BF-2713E7F22A31@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 5:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >> >> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. >> >> -Dave >> > > They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it anyway but, I had to ask. That sounds about right for something that size, to me. I paid upwards of $180 to ship ONE empty equipment rack from MI to MD (half the country) a number of years ago. This is three (if not full-height). A lot of the cost doesn't come from the mileage so much as the handling on either end, since something that heavy requires some pretty serious equipment to get on and off the truck, plus most freight companies will require it to be crated and palletized (which the seller stated upfront). - Dave From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 11 16:41:17 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:41:17 -0000 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7B558.2060209@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > They don't allow you to pickup because they are actually > located inside > a prison. Best check that 11/780 when it arrives to make sure you aren't getting more than you bargained for then :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 16:41:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:41:22 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2012, at 5:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/11/2012 05:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >>> >>> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability >>> to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> >> They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and >> they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it >> anyway but, I had to ask. > > You could just rent a truck and go pick it up for a lot less than that. For something that local, yes. Shipping it across the country, though... I'd gladly pay up to about $500-$600 for that, considering the size and weight of the thing. - Dave From chrise at pobox.com Tue Dec 11 16:42:54 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:42:54 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (12/11/2012 at 11:45AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > >those are the chips used in wire raping boards? > > You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating > rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of > it referred to as "wire raping". You never know what wire stripping can lead to... -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 16:45:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:45:10 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7B558.2060209@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> <50C7B558.2060209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C7B776.6050002@neurotica.com> On 12/11/2012 05:36 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and >>> they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it >>> anyway but, I had to ask. >> You could just rent a truck and go pick it up for a lot less than >> that. > > They don't allow you to pickup because they are actually located inside > a prison. Ohhh yes, I'd forgotten about that. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 11 16:45:18 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:45:18 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 2:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/11/2012 05:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >>> >>> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability >>> to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> >> They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and >> they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it >> anyway but, I had to ask. > > You could just rent a truck and go pick it up for a lot less than that. You'll want at least two people and a truck with a "rail lift" rather than a "tuck under". Don't even try it with a ramp. For those that don't know, a "rail lift" runs the lift (on you guessed it) rails. So it goes straight up and down. This is really important with large equipment. The "tuck under" lifts have a fair amount of fore-aft movement that if you're not careful can cause large loads to shift and those with wheels can roll right off. I avoid "tuck under" lifts at all costs. TTFN - Guy From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Dec 11 16:49:17 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:49:17 -0700 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 bootproms Message-ID: <50C7B86D.2090403@e-bbes.com> Hi all, never noticed that before, but my version chokes on disk > 2GByte. (OS works, but "SHOW DEV" gets confused) So, what is the newest version of the PROMs? What I have here, is: KA49-A V1.1-06B-V4.2 Cheers From rickb at bensene.com Tue Dec 11 16:59:07 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:59:07 -0800 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> Message-ID: It's WRAPPING, not RAPING. RAPING refers to the act of engaging in RAPE. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unobtainium obtained! > > ? > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > those are the chips used in wire raping boards? > >> > > > > You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating rat's > > nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of it > > referred to as "wire raping". > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 11 16:59:55 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:59:55 -0600 Subject: Apollo DN3xxx 3Com Ethernet Card Find / QIC Tape Misery Message-ID: <50C7BAEB.50807@charter.net> As an FYI, I recently purchased an Ethernet card, 3Com Assembly number 2012-01 (I believe this is a 3c505). It works perfectly. I am now in the process of attempting to read in as many of the (over 100, maybe 50 or so without duplicates) tape cartridges as I can, and will forward them off to Al Kossow that CHM when I get them read (presumably on a DVD). The biggest issue with the tapes is that Apollo used some pretty cheap cartridges at time to deliver software (after all, why should they need to last?? 8^)), and the little rubber belts inside the QIC-24 cartridges have gone bad in many of them. Fortunately, I have some relatively newer 3M DC600 cartridges that I can use to supply a substitute belt, and when done carefully (e.g., first manually rewind the cartridge PAST the load point (but not past the end!) before switching the belt to avoid problems) seems to be working. Unfortunately, I blarched a set of SR10.2 install media learning all of this. 8^P) But, I just read in a tape of 12MB successfully after doing a belt replacement (a tape with DPCI software, I think - it is still in the drive). In addition, many of the tapes I have were left in the middle, which seems to present data readability issues. We'll see. You can find these Ethernet cards on: EBay right now has two of them: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3COM-ISA-Ethernet-Card-2012-00-RevB-/350290188652?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518eec196c http://www.ebay.com/itm/3Com-2012-16-Bit-ISA-Ethernet-Coax-Network-Card-/190756443078?pt=US_Internal_Network_Cards&hash=item2c69f853c6 And also at Pinnacle Micro / EZ-Systems may also still have some. Part number ASSY-2012-01 "ASSY-2012-01 3Com Refurbished Assembly 201201 ETHERLINK 16 BIT 30 Day Warranty" They are $28.75 from Pinnacle, but the minimum with shipping is $50, so you end up paying $50. Suggest adding a comment that you do indeed want the "LONG version of the card" (they called me to confirm that). I got mine there because they offer a 30 day warranty (at least on the one I bought), which is what motivated me to drag out my DN3000 and try and read some tapes and FTP the files and test them with the DN3xxx emulator inside of the "mess" simulator. Even one of the bad SR10.2 boot tapes I could at least boot from after the transfer, and enough of the tape was there that some of the programs would run (e.g., calendar, invol, config all ran). I saw at least one card somewhere else on the net for a reasonable price, but I forget where. JRJ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 17:17:23 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:17:23 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: am i missing somthing? On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (12/11/2012 at 11:45AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > >those are the chips used in wire raping boards? > > > > You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating > > rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of > > it referred to as "wire raping". > > You never know what wire stripping can lead to... > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 17:08:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 23:08:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ancient Video (Was: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: <20121210152355.M32385@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 10, 12 03:34:23 pm Message-ID: > > > "Fairly hard to believe?" Believe it ! > > The tape dates from 1976. It's black and white and was distributed on > > U-Matic. While not in the best of condition, I've dubbed it off as an > > MPEG 4 for preservation purposes. It may not tell you anything new but > > it certainly has novelty value. Oh, and its definitely the same system. > > B&W reel to reel goes WAYBACK. I first used it in 1968, and that was with > obsolete equipment. Yes, I realise that, I have a couple of Sony AV seris machines, and some late stuff. I am just suprised that HP found ti worthwhile to make video tapes when not that many people could view them. Or were they made of in-house use at HP only, in which case presumably they did hav ethe machiens ot play them > > Sony CV series portable systems gave way to Sony AV series by about 1970. I have a battery-opearated AV series machien and camera. Uses 4" (or s) spools of tape and runs of a dryfit lead-acid batery. Yo ucan paly back throughte electronic viewfinder of the camera which is a tiny monochrome CRT. There is a nast design bug in thsi unti, though,. The head beam imoutned on a disk on top of the main motor spidnle. Siad disk is fixed ot the psinde by a nut. And it's right-ahnd thread. Problem is, it normalyl tuns in the directio nto _loosen_ the nut. If it coems loose, the head tips are wrecked by hittine the edges of the slot i nthe starionary head drum. Please don't ask how I foudn that out. I also discovered that Betamax head tips can be fitted to the beam and got to work, but it's a right fiddle to set up. > > U-Matic (cassette) came out about 1971 > > Quasar VX? home cassette units came out about 1976 Philips N1500 around 1972? IIRC that was one of the first home cassete systems > > Betamax and VHS came out about 1977. > "First"??!? depends on whether you mean prototypes (about 1971) or retail > "Best" prob'ly Beta, but that isn't what decides what ends up dominating Philisps V2000 a little later. Technically the best of the lot, but it came out too late. Pity, those machines are wonderfully designed and built. > the market (cf. 3" V 3.5" diskettes) > > How long before DVD and BluRry are gone? > The sooner the better :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 16:45:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: <1355177787.13585.8.camel@hp0> from "Colin Eby" at Dec 10, 12 10:16:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony - > > "Fairly hard to believe?" Believe it ! I said 'hard', not 'impossible' :-) > > The tape dates from 1976. It's black and white and was distributed on > U-Matic. While not in the best of condition, I've dubbed it off as an > MPEG 4 for preservation purposes. It may not tell you anything new but Pity. Umatic I have a chance of being able to view (I have a compact Unmatic portable machine here, I would seriously consider getting a full onw). Digital files, not a hope. > it certainly has novelty value. Oh, and its definitely the same system. What is covered in this 'film'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 17:13:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 23:13:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Aiuto" at Dec 11, 12 00:12:14 am Message-ID: > > Can you post that video somewhere (YouTube?). I've got a 9831A that I am > trying to refurb and put in our museum. Any information is useful. The HP9830 and HP9831 are very different machines, the only thing in common being that they run BASIC. AFAIK there neger was a version of the 9880 for the 9831 system, although I think you could use an 8" floppy drive with it (HP9885?) . Good luck in findign the system ROM, though. The HP9831 is, of couree, an HP9825 with different ROMs and a few differnet keycaps. The schematis for the 9825 are applicable to the 9831 too. If you need any help getting it going, let me know, I have worked on the 9825 and 9831. -tony From shumaker at att.net Tue Dec 11 17:31:52 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:52 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50C7C268.3070808@att.net> On 12/11/2012 5:45 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 11, 2012, at 2:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> On 12/11/2012 05:01 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >>>> >>>> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability >>>> to power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> >>> They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and >>> they quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it >>> anyway but, I had to ask. >>> >> You could just rent a truck and go pick it up for a lot less than that. >> > You'll want at least two people and a truck with a "rail lift" rather than > a "tuck under". Don't even try it with a ramp. > > For those that don't know, a "rail lift" runs the lift (on you guessed it) > rails. So it goes straight up and down. This is really important with > large equipment. The "tuck under" lifts have a fair amount of fore-aft > movement that if you're not careful can cause large loads to shift and > those with wheels can roll right off. > > I avoid "tuck under" lifts at all costs. > > TTFN - Guy > > > from watching both in action, it's also common for the "tuck under" to have a slight slope to it... steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 17:34:15 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:34:15 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7AD73.2040304@sydex.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <9EB97588-52B2-4C60-9AFA-ABF81C181FBB@gmail.com> <50C7AD73.2040304@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2012 01:19 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I was under the impression that the 750 and 730 were subsequent >> "cost-reduced" models to the 780. Is that incorrect? More or less. > They had better be--one of the big selling points to us of the 750 was that > you got a considerable hunk of the 780's processing power for a lot less > money. The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC (on a 30A receptacle), clocked in around 60% as fast as the 11/780, but was limited initially to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB) and since it had 3 "CMI" slots could only have up to 3 MASSBUS adapters and up to 2 Unibuses (but not simultaneously - 1 Unibus came "free", the other took up a CMI slot). ISTR the price was $300K for the 11/780 and $100K for the 11/750 when they each came out (basic configuration, not loaded with lots of disk and max RAM). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 17:45:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:45:12 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50C7C588.3050403@neurotica.com> On 12/11/2012 05:42 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >> >> You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating >> rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of >> it referred to as "wire raping". > > You never know what wire stripping can lead to... [cue 1970s porn music] -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 17:52:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:52:23 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50C7C737.9060405@neurotica.com> Don't sweat it man, they're ragging on your spelling again. All in good fun. -Dave On 12/11/2012 06:17 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > am i missing somthing? > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> On Tuesday (12/11/2012 at 11:45AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >>> >>> You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating >>> rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of >>> it referred to as "wire raping". >> >> You never know what wire stripping can lead to... >> >> -- >> Chris Elmquist >> >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 17:54:27 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:54:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need pen for Dauphin DTR-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1355270067.29756.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ooh ooh ooh let me check my pockets. I'm sure to have one of those w/i ready reach! From: Sellam Ismail Has anyone got a pen for the Dauphin DTR-1 they are willing to sell? Please reply to me directly if you do. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From shumaker at att.net Tue Dec 11 18:09:18 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:09:18 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50C7CB2E.6060303@att.net> On 12/11/2012 6:17 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > am i missing somthing? > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > >> On Tuesday (12/11/2012 at 11:45AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> >>>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >>>> >>> You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating >>> rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of >>> it referred to as "wire raping". >>> >> You never know what wire stripping can lead to... >> >> -- >> Chris Elmquist >> >> >> > yup..... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 11 18:16:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:16:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121211161508.H64030@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > am i missing somthing? YES. The word that you wanted in your original post was "WRAPPING", not "RAPING", which has other connotations. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Tuesday (12/11/2012 at 11:45AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > > > >those are the chips used in wire raping boards? > > > > > > You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating > > > rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of > > > it referred to as "wire raping". > > > > You never know what wire stripping can lead to... > > > > -- > > Chris Elmquist > > > > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 18:21:40 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:21:40 -0200 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <9EB97588-52B2-4C60-9AFA-ABF81C181FBB@gmail.com> <50C7AD73.2040304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1CCA2B4C9F6F4D1FAA4751F86289E65E@tababook> > The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC (on a 30A receptacle), Imagine how I know that particular point? :o) > ISTR the price was $300K for the 11/780 and $100K for the 11/750 when > they each came out (basic configuration, not loaded with lots of disk > and max RAM). Wow! I can say I had a $100K toy! ;oD I miss my 11/750... :o( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 18:35:36 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:35:36 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > You'll want at least two people and a truck with a "rail lift" rather than > a "tuck under". Don't even try it with a ramp. Large wheeled cabinets like these certainly can be loaded an unloaded on a ramp. The key is to use a pair of comealongs* (the good kind that can reverse the ratchet) and have patience. And remember to inspect _everything_ before making a move. With a nylon strap (and optionally some cardboard corners - and yes, use a good heavy strap), attach the running-out end of the first comealong to the strap, near the base of the cabinet. Then, attach the second comealong to the first. This is done simply because most of these only run out six or ten feet, and the last thing one wants is to be halfway up or down the ramp and the comealong all wound up or out. The second comealong then can be attached to a hard point inside, like a hook or eye up front, or another heavy strap forming a triangle to hardpoints on the side, near the deck. Then ratchet away, checking progress every few clicks. At critical points, a progress check after every click may be needed. I have done this many times with equipment heavier than this VAX-11/780, with no problems. I have done it alone, but having help is recommended. The thing to watch is the width of the ramp, which should have at least a few inches of clearance to either side (and more is better, obviously). Another thing to watch is if the side rails of the ramp will get in the way with the cabinet, like the leveling feet, especially at the ends of the ramp. One can also use a comealong arrangement similar to what I described above for tilted ramps. On my Facebook page there is a picture of a very heavy old IBM tape unit on a very tilted worn-out ramp - and it came down out of the truck in 15 minutes or so. *or a chain hoist. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 11 17:33:16 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 23:33:16 -0000 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018c01cdd7f7$e6c449d0$b44cdd70$@ntlworld.com> If it were closer to me I think I would have made the effort to spend that money! But I would have to rent storage space for it, no room at home :-( Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 11 December 2012 20:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, David Riley > wrote: > > Someone please tell me the VAX-11/780 mentioned a week ago is going > to be bid on, because if it goes to the scrap heap, I think I might just cry > (because I don't have the space or money for it). > > > > http://r.ebay.com/eaHRC6 > > > > Winning bid: US $1,136.11 [ 2 bids ] From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 18:42:41 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:42:41 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121211161508.H64030@shell.lmi.net> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <20121211161508.H64030@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: fml On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > am i missing somthing? > > YES. The word that you wanted in your original post was "WRAPPING", not > "RAPING", which has other connotations. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Chris Elmquist > wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday (12/11/2012 at 11:45AM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > > > > > >those are the chips used in wire raping boards? > > > > > > > > You know, I've had my work criticized as being sloppy, creating > > > > rat's nests with 30 AWG Kynar-covered wire, but I've never heard of > > > > it referred to as "wire raping". > > > > > > You never know what wire stripping can lead to... > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Elmquist > > > > > > > > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 11 18:49:10 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:49:10 -0700 Subject: Ancient Video (Was: Piecing together an HP9880 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C7D486.4040102@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/11/2012 4:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> the market (cf. 3" V 3.5" diskettes) >> >> How long before DVD and BluRry are gone? >> > > The sooner the better :-) What scares me will be the repacement. > -tony > Ben. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 19:11:15 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:11:15 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50C7D9B3.1080203@gmail.com> On 12/11/2012 4:35 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Another thing to watch is if the side rails of the ramp will get in > the way with the cabinet, like the leveling feet, especially at the > ends of the ramp. The end of the ramp is the part that always gets me. Many of them have an increase in angle for the last 6 inches or so. I am sure I am just about to die at least once when getting it past that transition. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 11 19:17:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:17:44 -0800 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <9EB97588-52B2-4C60-9AFA-ABF81C181FBB@gmail.com> <50C7AD73.2040304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50C7DB38.4040202@sydex.com> On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC (on a 30A receptacle), > clocked in around 60% as fast as the 11/780, but was limited initially > to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB) and since it had 3 "CMI" slots > could only have up to 3 MASSBUS adapters and up to 2 Unibuses (but not > simultaneously - 1 Unibus came "free", the other took up a CMI slot). We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive and a CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It worked pretty well. The 730, on the other hand, was something of a wimp. I was offered one when Sorcim dumped theirs and I refused it. Microprocessor technology was catching up too fast to consider giving it a home. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 19:20:51 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:20:51 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7D9B3.1080203@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> <50C7D9B3.1080203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The end of the ramp is the part that always gets me. Many of them have an > increase in angle for the last 6 inches or so. I am sure I am just about to > die at least once when getting it past that transition. If the cabinet bottoms out at this crest, try putting a piece of thin plywood or two on the deck of the truck, a few inches in. Even 1/4 inch pieces can help greatly. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 19:25:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:25:18 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7D9B3.1080203@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> <50C7B22D.9070306@neurotica.com> <59954A4A-65BB-49BD-8970-946DF07554EE@shiresoft.com> <50C7D9B3.1080203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C7DCFE.2060004@neurotica.com> On 12/11/2012 08:11 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Another thing to watch is if the side rails of the ramp will get in >> the way with the cabinet, like the leveling feet, especially at the >> ends of the ramp. > > The end of the ramp is the part that always gets me. Many of them have > an increase in angle for the last 6 inches or so. I am sure I am just > about to die at least once when getting it past that transition. I hate those. The "flat all the way down" ones are becoming more common, thank heaven. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 19:37:25 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:37:25 -0500 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left...) Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >> to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... > > We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive and a > CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It worked > pretty well. I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) > The 730, on the other hand, was something of a wimp. I was offered one when > Sorcim dumped theirs and I refused it. Microprocessor technology was > catching up too fast to consider giving it a home. It's realllly slow (about 25% slower than the 11/750) but physically small and only has 5 memory slots for 1MB boards. Using TU58 as the console boot medium made booting even slower, but if you copied all the files off of your tape (with EXCHANGE) and built a new tape (also with EXCHANGE), you could order the files properly and since the TU58 microprocessor appeared to cache the directory track(s), loading was then sequential and *substantially* faster. The 11/730 wasn't so bad if you used it like a single-user workstation. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 11 19:40:17 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:40:17 -0800 Subject: Need pen for Dauphin DTR-1 In-Reply-To: <1355270067.29756.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355270067.29756.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They aren't that hard to get are they? I know where there are several. Zane At 3:54 PM -0800 12/11/12, Chris Tofu wrote: >ooh ooh ooh let me check my pockets. I'm sure to have one of those >w/i ready reach! From: Sellam Ismail Has >anyone got a pen for the Dauphin DTR-1 they are willing to sell? >Please reply to me directly if you do. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail >VintageTech >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he >also reap...The truth is always simple. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From wilson at dbit.com Tue Dec 11 19:45:57 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:45:57 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <4431A0A5-CE61-49AD-905E-A462FAB774FA@gmail.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> <4431A0A5-CE61-49AD-905E-A462FAB774FA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121212014557.GA12736@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 02:55:38PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >I might be persuaded to buy a few for characterization purposes (I'll >let you know off-list if that's the case), but I'm curious to know if >you're working on a RoHS/modern replacement. Not as a pin-compatible part for repair of existing boards, no. If that's what you're going for, that's a great idea! An 8646A clone circuit on a tiny daughterboard might be cool too (for the KS10/VAX crowd). But I've got first-cut PCBs stuffed (and awaiting firmware) for a couple of projects which need to talk to DEC busses but don't need the DS8641N pinout: - Unibus battery-backed RAM and clock/cal board, (for my own use -- I know it's trivial but my main 11/34a's MS11Ls have gotten super flaky and I always wanted a TOY clock). This is a dual-height board, 3" tall, which fits in A/B of a MUD slot. Embarrassingly, it has a CPU, just to save square inches, but now that it's there, doing a KDJ11E-compatible TOY clock becomes easy, and doing config through an RS232 port is easy too so there are no jumpers. - Unibus universal disk controller (will be a D Bit product if successful). First prototype is a 6"x6" board with ribbon cables for a PCI/Unibus adapter (without the M9014-like Unibus paddle card) and an M9302-like terminator daughterboard with female Bergs on the back, so I can debug the firmware using E11 w/o hauling a big noisy BA11K into my little office. If I get this working, the next rev will be a quad SPC. SATA/USB/SD, with an 18-bit data path (obviously!). Anyway for these I'm seeing if I can get away with receiving the bus using 74LVC240s (etc.) and transmitting using a gazillion 2N7002PWs with 100 ohms in series with the gate (hoping that plus the gate capacitance will get the slew rate into a good neighborhood). Technically none of this is OK but I'm hoping in practice it works. Once the firmware's taking shape, a scope will tell all... >I'm currently prototyping >a board using comparators for the receivers and discrete FETs for the >drivers (no ICs I could find had compatible slew rate, capacitance and >drive strength with DEC's specs), but I'd be curious to know if you'd >found anything better. Yours sounds better than mine, so, nope! Probably just as well to do it with loose parts though -- you don't want to get dependent on *another* oddball chip that'll be rare five years from now. John Wilson D Bit From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 20:33:34 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 00:33:34 -0200 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2C883149B4574269ACD9D960A136B273@tababook> > It's WRAPPING, not RAPING. RAPING refers to the act of engaging in > RAPE. If you haven't told me, I'd never know :o) From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 11 20:56:04 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:56:04 -0600 Subject: Paying work: Read a 9-track VAX tape in So. Cal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C7F244.1060202@pico-systems.com> Not in CA at all, but I have a working CDC Keystone drive and an interface to a PC. I recently hacked up a program to read any 1600 (PE) or 6250 (GCR) tape to a binary file. There is a c program that will then read VMS Backup tapes, and I have it running here and have read in a couple of my old backups. I can also unpack some standard tape formats such as ANSI-D. I'd be willing to try this. But, I have had problems with old tapes that have been stored in bad conditions like attics or something. The oxide just peels off the tape like it was a Scotch tape or something, making a horrible sound. I'm in the St. Louis, MO area. Jon From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 20:58:52 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:58:52 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121212014557.GA12736@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> <4431A0A5-CE61-49AD-905E-A462FAB774FA@gmail.com> <20121212014557.GA12736@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <6024C078-AF8F-4DB1-8A64-EA821AB8970E@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 8:45 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 02:55:38PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >> I might be persuaded to buy a few for characterization purposes (I'll >> let you know off-list if that's the case), but I'm curious to know if >> you're working on a RoHS/modern replacement. > > Not as a pin-compatible part for repair of existing boards, no. If that's > what you're going for, that's a great idea! An 8646A clone circuit on a tiny > daughterboard might be cool too (for the KS10/VAX crowd). Huh, I hadn't thought of that. That's a good idea, and I might be able to do that with the SMT parts I'm using. If I used generic FET and comparator footprints, I could at least make a million (well, a few thousand) little boards and sell them at cost for a few per dollar. An 8646 might be a tough sell in such a tiny part; between the parity generator and the latches, it would be stuffed pretty full. Some of the simpler driver/receiver/transceiver chips are a lot easier, like the DS8641. > But I've got first-cut PCBs stuffed (and awaiting firmware) for a couple of > projects which need to talk to DEC busses but don't need the DS8641N pinout: That's what I'm doing (for QBUS first, since that's what I have the hardware to test, then Unibus once I have more tuits). > - Unibus battery-backed RAM and clock/cal board, (for my own use -- I know it's > trivial but my main 11/34a's MS11Ls have gotten super flaky and I always > wanted a TOY clock). This is a dual-height board, 3" tall, which fits in A/B > of a MUD slot. Embarrassingly, it has a CPU, just to save square inches, but > now that it's there, doing a KDJ11E-compatible TOY clock becomes easy, and > doing config through an RS232 port is easy too so there are no jumpers. CPUs are embarrassingly cheap these days. I'll be using an FPGA for the QBUS logic, which is overkill, but a CPLD is too small and an FPGA lets you add things like DMA engines practically for free. > - Unibus universal disk controller (will be a D Bit product if successful). > First prototype is a 6"x6" board with ribbon cables for a PCI/Unibus > adapter (without the M9014-like Unibus paddle card) and an M9302-like > terminator daughterboard with female Bergs on the back, so I can debug > the firmware using E11 w/o hauling a big noisy BA11K into my little office. > If I get this working, the next rev will be a quad SPC. SATA/USB/SD, > with an 18-bit data path (obviously!). Interested in reselling a QBUS universal disk controller with user-programmable logic? Talk to me off-list if so. > Anyway for these I'm seeing if I can get away with receiving the bus using > 74LVC240s (etc.) and transmitting using a gazillion 2N7002PWs with 100 ohms > in series with the gate (hoping that plus the gate capacitance will get the > slew rate into a good neighborhood). Technically none of this is OK but I'm > hoping in practice it works. Once the firmware's taking shape, a scope will > tell all... I'm actually going for something that's 100% in spec for DEC buses, which means using real comparators for the input. The unpleasant part of that is finding sub-35ns comparators that don't cost an arm and a leg per gate; so far, the one I've settled on is the MAX9107, which is a quad part that costs about $1.50 (<$0.40/gate) in 1k+ quantity. Add a 74LVC125 in for input gating (for tristate, or 74LVC00 for NAND like a DS3841) and you have a reasonable input buffer. There are lots of dirt-cheap FETs that work; the 2N7002 looks decent. I'm probably going with some duals in an SC89-6 package to save some real estate, but I'm trying to work out whether it's worth the extra cost per pin (it almost doubles). Your driver solution should be 100% DEC kosher (at least per the QBUS spec), since there's no way your rise time is going to be under 5 ns with an open-drain arrangement. >> I'm currently prototyping >> a board using comparators for the receivers and discrete FETs for the >> drivers (no ICs I could find had compatible slew rate, capacitance and >> drive strength with DEC's specs), but I'd be curious to know if you'd >> found anything better. > > Yours sounds better than mine, so, nope! Probably just as well to do it with > loose parts though -- you don't want to get dependent on *another* oddball > chip that'll be rare five years from now. Exactly. Going with discrete parts was 90% for future-proofing; the only real dependency (since the dual FETs are pretty common) is the comparator, but I think the MAX9107 has a pretty common pinout for a quad op amp/comparator, so if it goes the way of the dodo, I may still be in luck. Good to get feedback. Thanks! - Dave From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 11 21:21:30 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:21:30 -0500 Subject: Need pen for Dauphin DTR-1 References: <1355270067.29756.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <27BED05A8F4643C29A6E0488C2F0A57B@hd2600xt6a04f7> People tend to store them with the batteries inside and they leak destroying the pen. I have a dead one and had to purchased a 3rd party new one on ebay (maybe $15 or so) a few years ago. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:40 PM Subject: Re: Need pen for Dauphin DTR-1 > They aren't that hard to get are they? I know where there are several. > > Zane > > > At 3:54 PM -0800 12/11/12, Chris Tofu wrote: >>ooh ooh ooh let me check my pockets. I'm sure to have one of those w/i >>ready reach! From: Sellam Ismail Has anyone got a >>pen for the Dauphin DTR-1 they are willing to sell? Please reply to me >>directly if you do. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail >>VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com >>Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always >>simple. > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 22:06:04 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:06:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Apollo DN3xxx 3Com Ethernet Card Find / QIC Tape Misery In-Reply-To: <50C7BAEB.50807@charter.net> References: <50C7BAEB.50807@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Jay Jaeger wrote: > As an FYI, I recently purchased an Ethernet card, 3Com Assembly number > 2012-01 (I believe this is a 3c505). It works perfectly. > > I am now in the process of attempting to read in as many of the (over 100, > maybe 50 or so without duplicates) tape cartridges as I can, and will forward > them off to Al Kossow that CHM when I get them read (presumably on a DVD). > You can find these Ethernet cards on: > > EBay right now has two of them: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/3COM-ISA-Ethernet-Card-2012-00-RevB-/350290188652 ^^^^^^^^ If this is the guy I think it is, at one he was notorious for making one-sided trades with other people within the classic computing community. You can certainly see what he has since done with his spoils. One or two sales a month is all it takes for him to stick around and continue to take advantage of people who are desperate for a certain part for an older computer. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/3Com-2012-16-Bit-ISA-Ethernet-Coax-Network-Card-/190756443078 > > And also at Pinnacle Micro / EZ-Systems may also still have some. Part > number ASSY-2012-01 "ASSY-2012-01 3Com > Refurbished Assembly 201201 ETHERLINK 16 BIT 30 Day Warranty" > > They are $28.75 from Pinnacle, but the minimum with shipping is $50, so you > end up paying $50. Suggest adding a comment that you do indeed want the > "LONG version of the card" (they called me to confirm that). I got mine > there because they offer a 30 day warranty (at least on the one I bought), > which is what motivated me to drag out my DN3000 and try and read some tapes > and FTP the files and test them with the DN3xxx emulator inside of the "mess" > simulator. Even one of the bad SR10.2 boot tapes I could at least boot from > after the transfer, and enough of the tape was there that some of the > programs would run (e.g., calendar, invol, config all ran). > > I saw at least one card somewhere else on the net for a reasonable price, but > I forget where. Do any other network cards work? I might still have some 3c505 boards in my stash but I have literally 100s of other 3Com, Western Digital/SMC, Intel, etc cards of the same vintage. If someone has a genuine need for a /specific/ card, ping me and let me know what you are looking for because I'll usually let it go for cheap or trade for other boards. (Anyone /need/ one of those awful, slow, buggy 3c501 boards for anything?) I stockpiled tons of this stuff for my own use back when these sort of boards were available by the pound, and with many boards I'll probably never use them all (the only exception being certain EISA boards, which I'm probably not going to part with any time soon). From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 22:30:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:30:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> References: <1F53E4E9-41A0-47CC-B8F4-D13AA374575D@gmail.com> <50C7A511.4070906@neurotica.com> <50C7AD51.4090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 12/11/2012 1:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'm glad someone got it. I hope it is going to a good home. >> >> I had the money to buy it, the place to put it, and even the ability to >> power it, and to put disks on it...but no way to transport it. > > They want an arm and a leg for freight too. I live 40 miles away and they > quoted me $360 to deliver it. Not that I could have afforded it anyway but, I > had to ask. Pound for pound, $360 for freight really isn't bad at all for something that size. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 11 22:50:57 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:50:57 -0800 Subject: New Aquisition Message-ID: <3F8CBED7-8280-4241-B95A-4FE2CAB8EEBE@shiresoft.com> Just wanted to let folks know that my newest acquisition is in transit. It should arrive next week. What is it you might ask? It's a Symbolics 3620. Spec'd out pretty nicely with dual 750MB ESDI drives, 8MW of RAM and the professional 19" monochrome monitor. All tested and working with Genera 8.3 and the Y2K patches. I'll let folks know when it arrives and I've had a chance to fire it up. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 00:01:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:01:59 -0800 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C81DD7.8010906@sydex.com> On 12/11/2012 05:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen > the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) It's been more than 25 years, so my recollection may be hazy, but I think we had 208V 3-phase. I don't recall if it was delta or wye configured, but I tend to think it was the former. CPU from one phase, disk and tape drives from the other and our two big CDC line printers from the third. But as I said, it's been over 25 years since the electricians installed the stuff. We just went by what they recommended. --Chuck From microcode at zoho.com Wed Dec 12 01:13:00 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 07:13:00 +0000 Subject: New Aquisition In-Reply-To: <3F8CBED7-8280-4241-B95A-4FE2CAB8EEBE@shiresoft.com> References: <3F8CBED7-8280-4241-B95A-4FE2CAB8EEBE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20121212071300.GD14025@zoho.com> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 08:50:57PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Just wanted to let folks know that my newest acquisition is in transit. It should arrive next week. > > What is it you might ask? It's a Symbolics 3620. Spec'd out pretty nicely with dual 750MB ESDI > drives, 8MW of RAM and the professional 19" monochrome monitor. All tested and working with > Genera 8.3 and the Y2K patches. > > I'll let folks know when it arrives and I've had a chance to fire it up. Nice! Looking forward to a picture gallery. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 12 01:35:46 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:35:46 +0100 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: <20121211195815.f88983883f5f38dede87f356@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20121212083546.c0a86cedfd3770009ed21794@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:14:30 -0800 Glen Slick wrote: > So anyway, I don't have anything interesting for your SQ706A. Thanks for your efforts anyway. At first read the SQ3706A seemed to me as a SQ706A with SBox handles. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From christopher1400 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 14:51:19 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:51:19 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I also had an antivirus complaint with one of the files with DOS/Stoned or something similar, I just remember it was "Stoned". I wasn't too worried about it as 16-bit DOS virus on 64-bit Windows can't do anything. -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From jim.mainock at billjacobs.com Tue Dec 11 15:43:52 2012 From: jim.mainock at billjacobs.com (Jim Mainock) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:43:52 -0600 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... Message-ID: <53E14515E0391F47B3A3226C4EAE655947C2CF052A@bjex> Josh, I just seen your post on the BR2412 and thought I might be able to shed some light on the ND812 Computer. I worked for Nuclear Data when they designed and started production of this computer. Nuclear Data prurchased DEC PDP8 and PDP11 computers to to process data from their nuclear instrumentation products and decided to build a system simular to the PDP but with an enhanced instruction set and floating page. The software developers created a point of sale demo and tried to sell it to McDonalds Corp. They laughed and said no thanks. The sales people then show the system to Jewel Foods and they decided to partner with Nuclear Data. Nuclear Data was loosing money and redesigned the system with the new spec 16 technology how ever the spec 16 was delayed for a year and Nuclear Data was forced into selling the point of sale division of the company to Bunker Ramo that is where the BR2412 model designation came from. I personaly trained most of the new technicians we hired on troubleshooting the BR2412. My last job at Bunker Ramo was running the test engineering department and then I went back to work another year after the sale at Nuclear Data. Nuclear Data was one of the best companies I have worked for. If I can aswer any questions you might have on either Nuclear Data or Bunker Ramo feel free to contact me via email. Thanks, Jim Mainock Jim.mainock at gmail.com From jlw at jlw.com Tue Dec 11 16:52:23 2012 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:52:23 -0800 Subject: Paying work: Read a 9-track VAX tape in No. Cal. In-Reply-To: <50C76D54.5090401@sydex.com> References: <50C76D54.5090401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50C7B927.1000004@jlw.com> I can do that. I'm in Newark, CA. I don't have a working email address for you, Chuck. -- Jeff Woolsey {woolsey,jlw}@{jlw,jxh}.com first.last at gmail.com Spum bad keming. Nature abhors a straight antenna, a clean lens, and unused storage capacity. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management "Card sorting, Joel." -me, re Solitaire From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 18:36:38 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:36:38 -0500 Subject: 10K ECL Message-ID: > > From: Pat Fitzpatrick > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:15:54 -0600 > Subject: 10K ECL > Hi Folks, > > As part of my ongoing attempt to de-clutter my life, I am purging my > antique IC collection. I have a whole pile of 10K ECL chips left over from > a project a number of years back and am wondering if anyone has any use for > such. If so, let me know and I'll make a list. I KNOW I'll never use them > again. > > Thanks, > Pat > Depending on the part numbers, the Living Computer Museum might be able use some to keep their KL10 systems running. -- Michael Thompson From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 02:19:47 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 02:19:47 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: has a copy of windows 95 on floppy thats infected hehehe On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Christopher Satterfield < christopher1400 at gmail.com> wrote: > I also had an antivirus complaint with one of the files with DOS/Stoned or > something similar, I just remember it was "Stoned". I wasn't too worried > about it as 16-bit DOS virus on 64-bit Windows can't do anything. > > -- > C:\win > Bad Command Or File Name > C:\ > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Dec 12 02:20:30 2012 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:20:30 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 bootproms In-Reply-To: <50C7B86D.2090403@e-bbes.com> References: <50C7B86D.2090403@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20121212082030.GR19020@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2012-12-11 15:49:17 -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > never noticed that before, but my version chokes on disk > 2GByte. > (OS works, but "SHOW DEV" gets confused) > > So, what is the newest version of the PROMs? > > What I have here, is: > KA49-A V1.1-06B-V4.2 I think that I have at least a version 1.4 firmware updater around. (In fact, it's a small program MOPable which gets a 512KB ROM image attached. And I'm disassembling it to understand the update process.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: 23:53 <@jbglaw> So, ich kletter' jetzt mal ins Bett. the second : 23:57 <@jever2> .oO( kletter ..., hat er noch Gitter vorm Bett, wie fr?her meine Kinder?) 00:00 <@jbglaw> jever2: *patsch* 00:01 <@jever2> *aua*, wof?r, Gedanken sind frei! 00:02 <@jbglaw> Nee, freie Gedanken, die sind seit 1984 doch aus! 00:03 <@jever2> 1984? ich bin erst seit 1985 verheiratet! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 12 03:58:02 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:58:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? > am i missing somthing? If you ask so, then yes: orthography and grammar ;-) Christian From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 04:07:52 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 04:07:52 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a pain and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 3:58 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> >>>>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >>>>> >>>> am i missing somthing? >> > > If you ask so, then yes: orthography and grammar ;-) > > Christian > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 12 07:00:55 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:00:55 -0500 Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows 98SE in a DOS Box Message-ID: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> I never thought that I would be asking for this again, but after 10 years (my current version of SimH is V2.9-11 from 2002) I think it is reasonable to check out some new code on the current version of SimH. While I still run SimH from a Dos Box under Windows 98SE, I also run under Windows XP. I use SimH so rarely that I never bothered to generate a variant to run a PDP-11 under Windows 98SE for myself. But I have some new code which needs to be tested under as many different emulators and hardware as possible. The new code runs correctly under the newest E11 and that old 2002 SimH. I want to be sure that the code also runs correctly under the newest SimH and DEC hardware. So, can anyone please help with a link to a PDP-11 variant of SimH that runs in a Dos Box or just e-mail me a copy? While I am running these tests, does anyone use any other emulators than E11 or SimH? Charon used to be available, but does not seem to be around any more. Jerome Fine From jon at jonworld.com Wed Dec 12 08:42:27 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:42:27 -0500 Subject: FFS? HP/3000 (?) Parts Message-ID: Folks, In going through my archives/basement I found three HP 12747H 64K Memory boards. I have no idea if they work or not or if anyone is interested in them. I received them around 12 years ago when a former customer was decommissioning an HP/3000 and they were giving out the internals as mementos to the staff. Shipping would be from 46219. -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 08:47:34 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:47:34 -0200 Subject: Ancient Video (Was: Piecing together an HP9880 References: <50C7D486.4040102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >>> How long before DVD and BluRry are gone? >> The sooner the better :-) > What scares me will be the repacement. Serial memory? Anything can access that with the right software, bit-banging some 3 or 4 pins. Why not? Who will be the first to create a SD drive for a VAX? :oD From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 09:24:02 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:24:02 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <7A972E3B-C9A4-4FEA-8D4B-4F40CB089C1E@gmail.com> On Dec 12, 2012, at 5:07, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a pain > and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. Left brain, right brain. Most of the better writers I know have a hard time with grammar and spelling. I'm an ideal editor, because I pick up on those errors like crazy, but my creative output is boring and uninspired. It takes all types. I tend to hold off on criticizing typos on the Internet, since it doesn't really matter as long as I can understand it, but sometimes an error (e.g., wrapping misspelled as raping) provides a pretty juicy target. Like Dave said, it's all in good fun. I once sent an email where I said I was "foiled again by those meddling kids!", but it turned out I left out the F on foiled. It... changed the implication somewhat. - Dave From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 09:56:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:56:05 -0200 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <91F38E59CA1A48EC9A39EFF0704D0785@tababook> >>>> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >> am i missing somthing? > If you ask so, then yes: orthography and grammar ;-) Nah, he's missing the fun :oD From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 12 10:15:57 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:15:57 -0800 Subject: New Aquisition In-Reply-To: <20121212071300.GD14025@zoho.com> References: <3F8CBED7-8280-4241-B95A-4FE2CAB8EEBE@shiresoft.com> <20121212071300.GD14025@zoho.com> Message-ID: <7EF455B7-5DCC-4BFC-A94B-7F0CC46B41C2@shiresoft.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:13 PM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 08:50:57PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Just wanted to let folks know that my newest acquisition is in transit. It should arrive next week. >> >> What is it you might ask? It's a Symbolics 3620. Spec'd out pretty nicely with dual 750MB ESDI >> drives, 8MW of RAM and the professional 19" monochrome monitor. All tested and working with >> Genera 8.3 and the Y2K patches. >> >> I'll let folks know when it arrives and I've had a chance to fire it up. > > Nice! Looking forward to a picture gallery. I'll put something up as soon as I get it unpacked and up and running. ;-) TTFN - Guy From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 12 10:33:21 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:33:21 -0600 Subject: long ISA 3com cards Message-ID: <002901cdd886$6631f620$3295e260$@com> I had no idea these are still in demand; I will have to get all mine tested and posted on the website. A few are there, but not too many. My prices are a lot less than those on ebay! http://www.elecshopper.com/nic/isa.html All are hand tested to ensure they will connect to the internet and carry a 30-day warranty. There is also one EISA 3com card http://www.elecshopper.com/nic/eisa.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 12 11:20:57 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:20:57 -0600 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few, minutes left...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C8BCF9.7070507@pico-systems.com> It's been more than 25 years, so my recollection may be hazy, but I think we had 208V 3-phase. I don't recall if it was delta or wye configured, but I tend to think it was the former. CPU from one phase, disk and tape drives from the other and our two big CDC line printers from the third. But as I said, it's been over 25 years since the electricians installed the stuff. We just went by what they recommended. Chuck Yes, our 780 was 208V 3Phase, and I'm PRETTY sure it was 5-wire, so it had a neutral and a ground pin. I think some of the outlets are still in the wall at work, so I'll check the twist-lock to see. I think the power supplies could run off 240 V as well, but possibly the whole machine was slightly different for that option. I know our big data center with IBM 370s was all 208 V also. The multiple H7800 (I think) power supplies each ran off a single phase bridged between two hots, but they were distributed around the phases. The LSI-11 and maybe a few other things ran off 120 V, and I think there was a scope/etc. 120 V outlet there, too. The big cooling blowers were each across two different phases. Some of the larger disk drives had 3-phase motors, and the high-end tape drives (TU-76, TU-77) had 3-phase power supplies and vacuum blower motors. I think the Vax 11/750 was single-phase 220 V, and the 730 was 120 V. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 11:34:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:34:33 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <50C8C029.8000800@sydex.com> On 12/11/2012 12:51 PM, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > I also had an antivirus complaint with one of the files with DOS/Stoned or > something similar, I just remember it was "Stoned". I wasn't too worried > about it as 16-bit DOS virus on 64-bit Windows can't do anything. Yup, it seems to be on the disks for a Sharp PC-7000. So beware. Fortunately most of the image files in Don's archive are for CP/M systems, so no problem there. --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 12 11:41:20 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:41:20 -0600 Subject: Apple computer keyboards Message-ID: <003a01cdd88f$e5526e40$aff74ac0$@com> The Apple computer keyboards are now listed. All are complete, in good condition. Please expect some discoloration due to age. Detachable ADB cables are NOT included. http://www.elecshopper.com/keyboards/apple.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 12 11:53:25 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:53:25 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa, for those that asked Message-ID: <004801cdd891$9585e4d0$c091ae70$@com> The Apple Lisa is complete, does not appear to be screen burned. Includes hard drive and floppy drive and keyboard. Somewhat yellowed due to age. Does NOT power on, no repairs attempted. (Is there someplace else to turn it on, besides the white square button above the keyboard jack?) Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 12 12:02:25 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:02:25 -0600 Subject: Free Apple kbds Message-ID: <004d01cdd892$d7566280$86032780$@com> I have a few kbds that are missing keys, have cosmetic damage, etc. Free if you pay shipping from 78028. M0487, qty 7 A9M0330, qty 2 M3501, qty 6 M2980, qty 7 M0487, qty 1 M0116, qty 1 Please note they weigh abt 4 pounds each, properly packed, and due to the dimensions, will be over 12" long. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 12:10:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:10:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <2C883149B4574269ACD9D960A136B273@tababook> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <2C883149B4574269ACD9D960A136B273@tababook> Message-ID: <20121212100918.F90693@shell.lmi.net> > > It's WRAPPING, not RAPING. RAPING refers to the act of engaging in > > RAPE. > > If you haven't told me, I'd never know :o) I assume that very few on this list engage in non-consensual sex with wire. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 12 12:24:41 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:24:41 +0100 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 04:07:52 -0600 Adrian Stoness wrote: > i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a pain > and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. You are just lazzy. I suffer from dyslexia too. You take dyslexia as a lazzy excuse to be sloppy. I take dyslexia as a duty to be extra careful about what I type. Usually rereading, editing, looking up words in the dictionary and correcting a mail several times before I hit "Send". Only your lazzynes prevents you from taking the same care. You even don't care to use the shift key. So don't be huffy if we make pun out of your d,fv;sdmfv. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Dec 12 12:38:04 2012 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:38:04 -0800 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > >>> >>The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >>> >>to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... >> > >> >We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive and a >> >CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It worked >> >pretty well. > I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen > the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) Just to provide another data point, my 11/750 is the 110VAC variety. alan From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Dec 12 12:42:11 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:42:11 +0000 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left...) Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2525EC47@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Ethan writes: > The 11/730 wasn't so bad if you used it like a single-user workstation. Indeed, if you look at its internals, it has a lot in common with the never-marketed PDP-10 Minnow (AMD2901 bitslice, RL02/R80 support board) which was thought of as a desk-side or desk-top PDP-10. Tim. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 12:42:34 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:42:34 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: not being able to see stuff does not help... literally there can be a letter missing or whole words missing or extra words witch happens.. and i can't see it till hrs latter when someone complains leaving me huh? then wanting to craw into a whole and die....... all my school years when i asked for help i was told no ur to smart your lazy your lieing shut up go in the hall On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 04:07:52 -0600 > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a > pain > > and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. > You are just lazzy. I suffer from dyslexia too. You take dyslexia as a > lazzy excuse to be sloppy. I take dyslexia as a duty to be extra > careful about what I type. Usually rereading, editing, looking up words > in the dictionary and correcting a mail several times before I hit > "Send". Only your lazzynes prevents you from taking the same care. > You even don't care to use the shift key. So don't be huffy if we make > pun out of your d,fv;sdmfv. :-) > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 12:49:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:49:47 -0500 Subject: Apple computer keyboards In-Reply-To: <003a01cdd88f$e5526e40$aff74ac0$@com> References: <003a01cdd88f$e5526e40$aff74ac0$@com> Message-ID: <5A66489A-1EC2-458E-A619-C0A6446C5503@gmail.com> On Dec 12, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > The Apple computer keyboards are now listed. All are complete, in good > condition. Please expect some discoloration due to age. > > Detachable ADB cables are NOT included. On the bright side, S-Video cables (4-pin Mini-DIN) work just fine, though they don't usually come in the nice "curly" form. You can usually get them quite a bit longer, though; I don't know what the maximum length of ADB is, but I suspect you could get at least a few meters out of it. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 12:51:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:51:22 -0500 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <2D5B3C7F-688C-4AF6-8C6D-C03E61B4043B@gmail.com> On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 04:07:52 -0600 > Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a pain >> and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. > You are just lazzy. I suffer from dyslexia too. You take dyslexia as a > lazzy excuse to be sloppy. I take dyslexia as a duty to be extra > careful about what I type. Usually rereading, editing, looking up words > in the dictionary and correcting a mail several times before I hit > "Send". Only your lazzynes prevents you from taking the same care. > You even don't care to use the shift key. So don't be huffy if we make > pun out of your d,fv;sdmfv. :-) FWIW, it's spelled "lazy" and "laziness". :-) - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 12:56:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:56:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20121212105209.K90693@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: > You are just lazzy. I suffer from dyslexia too. You take dyslexia as a > lazzy excuse to be sloppy. I take dyslexia as a duty to be extra > careful about what I type. Usually rereading, editing, looking up words > in the dictionary and correcting a mail several times before I hit > "Send". Only your lazzynes prevents you from taking the same care. > You even don't care to use the shift key. So don't be huffy if we make > pun out of your d,fv;sdmfv. :-) "lazy" and "laziness" "pun"? All not a problem, but "d,fv;sdmfv"? A lot of us have a bit of lysdexia. I don't ridicule spellinq erorrs, since I make more than anybody else. But, sometimes, the unintended meaning is so funny or so outrageous that it has to be responded to. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 12:57:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:57:00 -0800 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50C8D37C.4080001@sydex.com> On 12/12/2012 02:07 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a pain > and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. the orthography as demonstrated by e e commungs is wholly distinct from ones poetry or a lack thereof --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 12 12:58:57 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:58:57 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90 bootproms In-Reply-To: <50C7B86D.2090403@e-bbes.com> References: <50C7B86D.2090403@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20121212195857.1321b3f3ca95a1605682c697@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:49:17 -0700 emanuel stiebler wrote: > So, what is the newest version of the PROMs? > > What I have here, is: > KA49-A V1.1-06B-V4.2 There isn't the VS4k90 firmware update in "The Library"? I have at least version 1.3. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 12:59:49 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:59:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: gma buss 2 amp fuses Message-ID: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Are these by default 250v? Thats all Radio Shack sells. I dont recall there being a voltage rating on the old ones. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:03:14 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:03:14 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <2D5B3C7F-688C-4AF6-8C6D-C03E61B4043B@gmail.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <2D5B3C7F-688C-4AF6-8C6D-C03E61B4043B@gmail.com> Message-ID: spellchecker gave me lazybones shrugs On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 12:51 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 04:07:52 -0600 > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > >> i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a > pain > >> and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. > > You are just lazzy. I suffer from dyslexia too. You take dyslexia as a > > lazzy excuse to be sloppy. I take dyslexia as a duty to be extra > > careful about what I type. Usually rereading, editing, looking up words > > in the dictionary and correcting a mail several times before I hit > > "Send". Only your lazzynes prevents you from taking the same care. > > You even don't care to use the shift key. So don't be huffy if we make > > pun out of your d,fv;sdmfv. :-) > > FWIW, it's spelled "lazy" and "laziness". :-) > > > - Dave > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 13:17:16 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:17:16 -0600 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <50C8D37C.4080001@sydex.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <50C8D37C.4080001@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2012 02:07 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> i'm one of those realy smart people that fails at langage skills its a >> pain >> and drives me up the wall yet somehow i am a poet shrugs. >> > > the orthography > as demonstrated > by e e commungs > is wholly distinct > from ones poetry > or a lack thereof > > --Chuck lost > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 13:52:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:52:17 -0800 Subject: NE555 story on ED Message-ID: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/555-timer-beginning-hans-camenzind-74715?NL=ED-03 A nice story written by Hans Camenzind's son. Does anyone have the definitive answer on WHY it was called the 555? --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 12 13:57:59 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:57:59 -0600 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <007a01cdd8a2$fce04470$f6a0cd50$@com> Electronicdesign.com not available? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 1:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: NE555 story on ED http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/555-timer-beginn ing-hans-camenzind-74715?NL=ED-03 A nice story written by Hans Camenzind's son. Does anyone have the definitive answer on WHY it was called the 555? --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 12 13:59:20 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:59:20 -0600 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> It has been hypothesized that the 555 got its name from the three 5 k? resistors used within,[3] but Hans Camenzind has stated that the number was arbitrary.[1] >From the Wikipedia article Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 1:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: NE555 story on ED http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/555-timer-beginn ing-hans-camenzind-74715?NL=ED-03 A nice story written by Hans Camenzind's son. Does anyone have the definitive answer on WHY it was called the 555? --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:11:21 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:11:21 +0100 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: >> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > >>>> >>The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >>>> >>to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... >>> > >>> >We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive and >>> >a >>> >CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It >>> >worked >>> >pretty well. >> I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen >> the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) > > Just to provide another data point, my 11/750 is the 110VAC variety. > > alan And my VAX-11/750 runs on 220/240 VAC 50 Hz. Although at the moment, the mains fuse in the house blows when I turn the key :-( In my previous home the machine ran well on a 16 Amps group. I have no clue yet as to why it blows the fuse of the 16 Amps group after the move to this house. - Henk From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:17:45 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:17:45 -0600 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: take a meter to the wall plug? On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> >On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> > >>>> >>>>> >>The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >>>>> >>to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... >>>>> >>>> > >>>> >We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive >>>> and >a >>>> >CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It >>>> >worked >>>> >pretty well. >>>> >>> I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen >>> the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) >>> >> >> Just to provide another data point, my 11/750 is the 110VAC variety. >> >> alan >> > > And my VAX-11/750 runs on 220/240 VAC 50 Hz. > Although at the moment, the mains fuse in the house blows when > I turn the key :-( In my previous home the machine ran well on > a 16 Amps group. I have no clue yet as to why it blows the fuse > of the 16 Amps group after the move to this house. > > - Henk > From shumaker at att.net Wed Dec 12 14:21:54 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:21:54 -0500 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <007a01cdd8a2$fce04470$f6a0cd50$@com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007a01cdd8a2$fce04470$f6a0cd50$@com> Message-ID: <50C8E762.5040805@att.net> On 12/12/2012 2:57 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Electronicdesign.com not available? > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 1:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: NE555 story on ED > > http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/555-timer-beginn > ing-hans-camenzind-74715?NL=ED-03 > > A nice story written by Hans Camenzind's son. Does anyone have the > definitive answer on WHY it was called the 555? > > --Chuck > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 > > > there are times when they seem to go offline steve From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 14:27:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:27:23 -0800 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <007a01cdd8a2$fce04470$f6a0cd50$@com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007a01cdd8a2$fce04470$f6a0cd50$@com> Message-ID: <50C8E8AB.70608@sydex.com> On 12/12/2012 11:57 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Electronicdesign.com not available? Let's try that again, (I hate long URLs!): http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed-signal/555-timer-beginning-hans-camenzind-74715 --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 14:29:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:29:40 -0800 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> Message-ID: <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> On 12/12/2012 11:59 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > It has been hypothesized that the 555 got its name from the three 5 k? > resistors used within,[3] but Hans Camenzind has stated that the number was > arbitrary.[1] Yes, but why start with 555 and not 550? I suppose it could have some roots in an after-work drinking session with the subject "triple nickel" .... --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:34:26 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:34:26 -0800 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) Message-ID: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?34764-40-years-of-PDP-11-hoarding-has-to-end From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 12 14:38:19 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:38:19 +0100 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Op 12 dec. 2012 om 21:11 heeft "Henk Gooijen" het volgende geschreven: >>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> >On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> > >>>>> >>The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >>>>> >>to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... >>>> > >>>> >We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive and >a >>>> >CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It >worked >>>> >pretty well. >>> I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen >>> the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) >> >> Just to provide another data point, my 11/750 is the 110VAC variety. >> >> alan > > And my VAX-11/750 runs on 220/240 VAC 50 Hz. > Although at the moment, the mains fuse in the house blows when > I turn the key :-( In my previous home the machine ran well on > a 16 Amps group. I have no clue yet as to why it blows the fuse > of the 16 Amps group after the move to this house. > > - Henk Did you try a slow fuse ? Or B-automaat problably the turn on current is to high. Slow fuses are been used for welding equipment with high turn-on currents. - Rik From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Dec 12 14:45:20 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:45:20 +0100 Subject: Apple Lisa, for those that asked In-Reply-To: <004801cdd891$9585e4d0$c091ae70$@com> References: <004801cdd891$9585e4d0$c091ae70$@com> Message-ID: <50C8ECE0.5070906@update.uu.se> Cindy, for an item this rare it might be adviced not to try to turn it on after such a long time. Many prefer it "as-is" and do their own repair _before_ power is applied, since it might do more harm than good. Cheers, pontus. On 12/12/2012 06:53 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > The Apple Lisa is complete, does not appear to be screen burned. > > Includes hard drive and floppy drive and keyboard. > > Somewhat yellowed due to age. > > Does NOT power on, no repairs attempted. > > (Is there someplace else to turn it on, besides the white square button > above the keyboard jack?) > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5952 - Release Date: 12/11/12 > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 12 14:54:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:54:54 -0800 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C8EF1E.3090602@bitsavers.org> On 12/12/12 12:34 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?34764-40-years-of-PDP-11-hoarding-has-to-end > > An RP03 and RP11-C is pretty cool, if noisy. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:58:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:58:05 -0200 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <98EB780812E34B3F846DCE8C7AE50CB6@tababook> You may have lots of wire (and some wire connections which are corroded, thus with lots of resistance) between your main distribuition point and your wall socket. What about you run a direct wire (of correct size) from the distribuition point to the Vax? :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henk Gooijen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 6:11 PM Subject: Re: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) >>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> >On 12/11/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> > >>>>> >>The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >>>>> >>to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... >>>> > >>>> >We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive >>>> >and a >>>> >CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It >>>> >worked >>>> >pretty well. >>> I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen >>> the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) >> >> Just to provide another data point, my 11/750 is the 110VAC variety. >> >> alan > > And my VAX-11/750 runs on 220/240 VAC 50 Hz. > Although at the moment, the mains fuse in the house blows when > I turn the key :-( In my previous home the machine ran well on > a 16 Amps group. I have no clue yet as to why it blows the fuse > of the 16 Amps group after the move to this house. > > - Henk From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:00:40 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:00:40 -0500 Subject: 8646 replacement (was: Unobtainium obtained!) In-Reply-To: <20121212014557.GA12736@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> <4431A0A5-CE61-49AD-905E-A462FAB774FA@gmail.com> <20121212014557.GA12736@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <9B7B3323-6D07-40BC-8EB6-8516DE0CA4DC@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2012, at 8:45 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 02:55:38PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >> I might be persuaded to buy a few for characterization purposes (I'll >> let you know off-list if that's the case), but I'm curious to know if >> you're working on a RoHS/modern replacement. > > Not as a pin-compatible part for repair of existing boards, no. If that's > what you're going for, that's a great idea! An 8646A clone circuit on a tiny > daughterboard might be cool too (for the KS10/VAX crowd). Now you got me thinking about it. :-) The 8646A (assuming it doesn't differ significantly from the 8646 described in the KS10 manual) is too complex for implementation using SSI bits (2x parity gen, latch and flip-flop are a lot to stuff into one little board). But... Looks like this can be done with a tiny CPLD doing the latching, parity and enables; Xilinx has a 32-macrocell CPLD for just over a buck in quantity that fits in a 5x5mm QFN package. I'm assuming I can fit a 5mm QFN between the pins in a 300-mil carrier board, but I haven't actually tested that in layout. There's a handy little LDO available on the market (also for a buck in 1k qty) that does 3.3v, 1.8v and 1.5v in one 3x3mm QFN package, which gives us the I/O voltage, CPLD VCCint and the comparator reference voltage all in one tiny package. It's definitely the sort of thing that could disappear, in which case there's probably space for separate regulators (and the comparator reference doesn't strictly need a regulator, a simple potential divider would do, but as long as it's there, might as well...). If it all fits, it can be made in 1k quantities for just under $5 each (including the PCB and pins, not including assembly, not factoring in necessary parts overages for attrition). Selling the boards as a kit with the QFNs preattached and the CPLD pre-programmed seems like a valid option, though both fully-assembled boards and bare boards are workable for folks of differing soldering abilities and financial persuasions. So, here's the question. Is there enough demand to make a 1k quantity of this? I don't think a smaller volume is really going to be cost-effective. Building in 100 qty drives the PCB cost up from $0.69 to $4.43, and the per-part price goes up as well (not by as much); it would probably at least double the price per unit. Still, $10 each might not be bad for a replacement for a part that no longer exists, and it's a lot easier to raise a thousand dollars than five thousand. :-) I also haven't gone to the trouble of trying to fit this thing all on one board, so it may be infeasible with the specified load of parts or number of layers. I'm cautiously optimistic, though. Qty Part No Description Unit Total --------------------------------------------------------------- 1 XC2C32A-6QFG CPLD, 32 macrocell 1.07730 1.07730 1 AS1355-BQFT-WDG LDO, 3.3v/1.8v/1.5v out .54194 .54194 2 74LVC04-PWR Hex inverters, for 5v in .10725 .21450 1 MAX9108 Quad high speed comparator 1.81050 1.81050 2 2N7002DW Dual FET .06300 .12600 10 CAP-105 100nF ceramic cap .00462 .04620 2 M20-9991046 10-pin headers .12320 .24640 1 PCB Carrier board .69000 .69000 =============================================================== Total: 4.75284 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:13:03 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:13:03 -0600 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: <50C8EF1E.3090602@bitsavers.org> References: <50C8EF1E.3090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: i feel like i am on the only guy in central canada into this stuff :'( everytime i get a lead i am told your 10yrs to late From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 12 15:23:46 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:23:46 +0100 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: <2D5B3C7F-688C-4AF6-8C6D-C03E61B4043B@gmail.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> <20121212192441.67f16048d3e19708ed82bc42@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <2D5B3C7F-688C-4AF6-8C6D-C03E61B4043B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121212222346.cf89b5d4cf907efaf71036ce@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:51:22 -0500 David Riley wrote: > FWIW, it's spelled "lazy" and "laziness". :-) See. That is the problem. Many typos slip through still. But at least I try to reduce them. Sometimes I am less successful. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 12 14:40:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:40:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: <50C7DB38.4040202@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 11, 12 05:17:44 pm Message-ID: > The 730, on the other hand, was something of a wimp. I was offered one > when Sorcim dumped theirs and I refused it. Microprocessor technology > was catching up too fast to consider giving it a home. I'm the opposite (as usual). I turned down an 11/750 and actively looked for (and eventually found) an 11/730. My views on these amachiens are : 11/780. Beautiful, but alrge and power-hungry. I'd love one, but only if I had somewwhere to put it 11/750. All custom gate arrays make it hard to understand and even harder to repair. Not a amchine I would ever want ot run 11/730. To fit a VAX processor onto 3 hex-heightcards using only stnadard ICs [1] is a hack. It;'s postly (unprotected) PALs. There are 8 MA291s for the ALU. The really stupid bit of design, and the boatie who came up with this needs a touch of the clue-by-four is that the microcode store is _DRAM_. Yes, you read that right. 4116s IIRC. The problem is, of course that the execution of the micorocde doens't access all locations in the store quickly enough, so the RAM is not autometically refreshed. You guessed it, the CPU is paused every so often asd the control store is refreshed. That's one thing that slows it right down. Why they didn't use SRAM is beyond me.... Still, the 11/730 is small enogh to accomodote (10.5" box, and not that heavy) and repariable. It's my favourite of all the VASen -tony From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:42:59 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:42:59 -0500 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: <50C8EF1E.3090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I feel the same way about PDP-11s and PDP-8s in the Hamilton area of Ontario.Not that I have an '8 at present, but I really do want one. 'Course there are my "competitors" of sorts in Toronto and down near St. Catharine's, ...There's also the distinct problem I can't ever drive any form of motor vehicle (yay vision problems!), so I can't exactly go pick machines up; and shipping is a bit of a bitch. Now, back to the topic at hand. I *WANT* that 11/70, so badly; not like I could afford to power it, or ship it. Cheers, Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:48:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:48:06 -0500 Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2012, at 15:40, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > 11/730. To fit a VAX processor onto 3 hex-heightcards using only stnadard > ICs [1] is a hack. It;'s postly (unprotected) PALs. There are 8 MA291s > for the ALU. The really stupid bit of design, and the boatie who came up > with this needs a touch of the clue-by-four is that the microcode store > is _DRAM_. Yes, you read that right. 4116s IIRC. The problem is, of > course that the execution of the micorocde doens't access all locations > in the store quickly enough, so the RAM is not autometically refreshed. > You guessed it, the CPU is paused every so often asd the control store > is refreshed. That's one thing that slows it right down. Why they didn't use > SRAM is beyond me.... Link error: unresolved reference ([1]) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Dec 12 15:59:11 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:59:11 +0100 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! In-Reply-To: References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <20121211224254.GG11667@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50C8FE2F.5030002@hachti.de> Am 12.12.2012 10:58, schrieb Christian Corti: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> On 12/11/2012 10:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>>> those are the chips used in wire raping boards? >> am i missing somthing? > > If you ask so, then yes: orthography and grammar ;-) Oh... I read it and took it for a joke I didn't know before.... ;-) Let's do some wire rape! Ph -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 16:08:20 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:08:20 -0200 Subject: Unobtainium obtained! References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <50C78D43.7070808@sydex.com> <2C883149B4574269ACD9D960A136B273@tababook> <20121212100918.F90693@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> > It's WRAPPING, not RAPING. RAPING refers to the act of engaging in >> > RAPE. >> If you haven't told me, I'd never know :o) > I assume that very few on this list engage in non-consensual > sex with wire. Assume nothing, you never know how crazy people are! :oD From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 12 11:12:44 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:12:44 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: References: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <50C8BB0C.5090607@jwsss.com> On 12/12/2012 12:19 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > has a copy of windows 95 on floppy thats infected hehehe The win 95 makes more sense because the sequences that AV scanners look for besides a huge list of signatures are system calls and operations between them that may enter known buggy areas of the Windows kernel in odd ways. Win95 is the first version of Windows which was protected on "top" and 'real mode bottom', in that the system went protected much earlier than before. A lot of it was still implemented big real, so the code would jump back and forth to the real mode with sequences which look suspicious to virus scanners which assume the programs are for later windows, such as xp, and later. the hits on the maslin archive should not contain any x86 code unless it is for something like an Atrona which has dual boards. And in that case I don't think that it has any protected mode supporting processors, that is an 8086 running msdos as a co-operating system. I'd be interested if any of the protected mode standalone environment code would pass AV scrutiny w/o complaint as well if the AV scanners identified it as executable code. > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Christopher Satterfield < > christopher1400 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I also had an antivirus complaint with one of the files with DOS/Stoned or >> something similar, I just remember it was "Stoned". I wasn't too worried >> about it as 16-bit DOS virus on 64-bit Windows can't do anything. >> >> -- >> C:\win >> Bad Command Or File Name >> C:\ >> > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 12 13:58:55 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:58:55 -0800 Subject: gma buss 2 amp fuses In-Reply-To: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50C8E1FF.6000409@jwsss.com> That rating is for UL purposes. The amount an open fuse air gap can reasonable be expected to be an open circuit. The current is all that really matters unless you go to a higher voltage, or have other issues (such as transient high voltage which might cause an arc to start, then sustain at a lower voltage). Also FWIW, I think it is an RMS voltage rating they used. household cartridge fuses are typically 600v. I worked at Bussman testing fuses, and the reason the 600v was there was mainly that was as high as their test rigs could go from the power sources they had. Most of the circuits they are used in are way lower than that. jim On 12/12/2012 10:59 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Are these by default 250v? Thats all Radio Shack sells. I dont recall there being a voltage rating on the old ones. > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 12 14:03:40 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:03:40 -0800 Subject: gma buss 2 amp fuses In-Reply-To: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50C8E31C.2040501@jwsss.com> Other useless data on Buss fuses anyway, I always assume they will run forever at 100% overload, and blow immediately on any spike of 10X over rating. IE if you have a 5x rated spike you might not get a blow. Slow blows fusetrons are very precise but temperature sensitive. they will bake the solder in the mechanism for a very precise time if the current heats it to there and then release and open the slow blow half of the mechanism. If they are operated in the 150F + range, then you get enough heat into the fuse to make it blow sooner. The solder they use I tested with a temperature rig would run 500 test plugs for the rated time, and then all blow typically within 1 to 2 seconds of each other. that test is done on every batch of the material. I don't know what they do now in ROHS (or whatever it is) non lead times. I think there was even gallium and indium in the alloy they used. Pretty exotic stuff anyway. Jim On 12/12/2012 10:59 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Are these by default 250v? Thats all Radio Shack sells. I dont recall there being a voltage rating on the old ones. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 12 16:37:20 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:37:20 -0000 Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows 98SE in a DOS Box In-Reply-To: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> References: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <008301cdd8b9$40d14ba0$c273e2e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: 12 December 2012 13:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows > 98SE in a DOS Box > > I never thought that I would be asking for this again, but after 10 years (my > current version of SimH is V2.9-11 from 2002) I think it is reasonable to > check out some new code on the current version of SimH. > > While I still run SimH from a Dos Box under Windows 98SE, I also run under > Windows XP. I use SimH so rarely that I never bothered to generate a > variant to run a PDP-11 under Windows 98SE for myself. But I have some > new code which needs to be tested under as many different emulators and > hardware as possible. The new code runs correctly under the newest E11 > and that old 2002 SimH. > I want to be sure that the code also runs correctly under the newest SimH > and DEC hardware. > > So, can anyone please help with a link to a PDP-11 variant of SimH that runs > in a Dos Box or just e-mail me a copy? > > While I am running these tests, does anyone use any other emulators than > E11 or SimH? Charon used to be available, but does not seem to be around > any more. > > Jerome Fine Slightly puzzled because all SIMH versions running on Windows are console applications. You can get Windows executables for the latest version of SIMH from here: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip Sorry if I have misunderstood the question. Regards Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 17:05:26 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:05:26 -0600 Subject: Apple computer keyboards In-Reply-To: <5A66489A-1EC2-458E-A619-C0A6446C5503@gmail.com> References: <003a01cdd88f$e5526e40$aff74ac0$@com> <5A66489A-1EC2-458E-A619-C0A6446C5503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, David Riley wrote: > On the bright side, S-Video cables (4-pin Mini-DIN) work > just fine, though they don't usually come in the nice > "curly" form. You can usually get them quite a bit > longer, though; I don't know what the maximum length of > ADB is, but I suspect you could get at least a few > meters out of it. Always wondered if that was the case. I've got plenty of ADB keyboards lacking cables and plenty of S-Video cables. So both ADB and SVid are wired straight-through? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 17:22:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:22:40 -0800 Subject: gma buss 2 amp fuses In-Reply-To: <50C8E1FF.6000409@jwsss.com> References: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50C8E1FF.6000409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50C911C0.3030009@sydex.com> On 12/12/2012 10:59 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Are these by default 250v? Thats all Radio Shack sells. I dont recall > there being a voltage rating on the old ones. I've seen AGC3 fuses for automotive use rated at 32V, but I've never seen a GMA fuse rated at less than 250V. I've sometimes wondered if the AGC3 voltage rating was for marketing purposes. Anyone know for certain if there's a reason to purchase a 32-volt AGC3 over a 250 volt one? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 17:26:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin's archive... In-Reply-To: <50C8BB0C.5090607@jwsss.com> References: <2146476210.1175258.1355253155237.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <50C8BB0C.5090607@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20121212151743.S94833@shell.lmi.net> > >> I also had an antivirus complaint with one of the files with DOS/Stoned or > >> something similar, I just remember it was "Stoned". I wasn't too worried > >> about it as 16-bit DOS virus on 64-bit Windows can't do anything. > > has a copy of windows 95 on floppy thats infected hehehe On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, jim s wrote: > The win 95 makes more sense because the sequences that AV scanners look > for besides a huge list of signatures are system calls and operations > between them that may enter known buggy areas of the Windows kernel in > odd ways. Win95 is the first version of Windows which was protected on > "top" and 'real mode bottom', in that the system went protected much > earlier than before. "Stoned" is a boot sector virus. If a Windoze95 machine gets booted from a DOS OR WINDOZE95 floppy that is infected, then it will infect the boot sector of Windoze95. HOWEVER, A "floppy boot" of Windoze95, after seeing the floppy (and maybe being infected by it), will then ALSO use the hard disk boot sector, thereby making it DIFFICULT to do a "clean floppy boot" from a known NOT-infected disk. The solution was to set the CMOS to boot from the hard disk, even when there is a floppy in the drive. THAT was not available on all machines. > with sequences which look suspicious to virus scanners > . . . > the hits on the maslin archive should not contain any x86 code unless it > is for something like an Atrona which has dual boards. And in that case There are plenty of MS-DOS disk images in Don's collection (where else would you go to get an image of an 8" MS-DOS?). It is likely that they are NOT all false-positives. So, check the boot sectors of any MS-DOS disks that you make from images. AND, scan all executables for malware that was NOT boot-sector. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 12 17:27:23 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 12:27:23 +1300 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? Message-ID: I found this clever and amusing. (-: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ Terry (Tez) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 17:35:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:35:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga 600 to 1084s Message-ID: <1355355303.75836.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Best to use the 9 pin (cga?) jack on the back of the1084s or the rca jacks? If you were building the cable. Anyone have pinouts? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 12 17:46:22 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:46:22 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... In-Reply-To: <53E14515E0391F47B3A3226C4EAE655947C2CF052A@bjex> References: <53E14515E0391F47B3A3226C4EAE655947C2CF052A@bjex> Message-ID: In article <53E14515E0391F47B3A3226C4EAE655947C2CF052A at bjex>, Jim Mainock writes: > Josh, > I just seen your post on the BR2412 and thought I might be able to shed > some light on the ND812 Computer. [...] I looked for this message and couldn't find it anywhere. I have an ND812 with some associated peripheral boxes: I've been looking for documentation and other information on the peripheral boxes because I believe there to be some sort of video/graphics generator boards in the set to drive the terminals shown in the pictures. bitsavers has documentation on the processor, but I haven't been able to find anything on the peripherals. I have dual 8" floppy drive cabinets and two peripheral board enclosures along with some peripheral boards. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From db at db.net Wed Dec 12 17:51:04 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:51:04 -0500 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121212235104.GA65626@night.db.net> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:27:23PM +1300, Terry Stewart wrote: > I found this clever and amusing. (-: > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > Terry (Tez) ________________________________________________ /WHAT DID GOOGLE LOOK LIKE IN THE 60S? | | ]] ]]] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]] | | ]] ] ]]]] ] ] ] | |] ] ] ]] | |11]111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111| |2222222222222222222]222]22222222222]222222222222| |333]333333333]33]3333]3333333]333333333333333333| |44444]4]4444444444444444444444444444444444444444| |55555555555555]555555555]55]555]5555555555555555| |]666666666]]66666]]66666666666666]66666666666666| |777777777]77]77777777777777777777777]77777777777| |8]8888888888888888888888888888]88888]88888888888| |999999]999999999999999]999]999999999999999999999| |________________________________________________| Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 12 17:53:35 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:53:35 -0800 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C918FF.10009@bitsavers.org> On 12/12/12 3:27 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I found this clever and amusing. (-: > At a superficial level, done by someone who never had to user a batch system. - where is the JCL? You don't get a 'command prompt' from a keypunch - all but the smallest 360s had DASD you would have never done a data-base query to tape and even if you did.. - a 9 track tape was MUCH faster in use than that The operator interaction with the program was pretty weird. Maybe whoever created this animation didn't realize you didn't run your own program from the system console of a 360. How would the operator know how to answer the 1,2,3 option printed out? and shouldn't pushing the 'reset' just ABEND with a core dump? :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 18:06:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:06:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > I found this clever and amusing. (-: > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ On IE8, it hangs, with a gripe about IE8 (is halflife of IE versions now too short to even measure in montths?) On Mozilla Firefox, it hangs, with a windoze default [hourglass] cursor Surely the subject was adequately addressed in "Desk Set" (Katherine Hepburn, Spencer Tracy) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 18:10:43 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 17:10:43 -0700 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50C91D03.3070200@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/12/2012 5:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: >> I found this clever and amusing. (-: >> http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > On IE8, it hangs, with a gripe about IE8 > (is halflife of IE versions now too short to even measure in montths?) > > On Mozilla Firefox, it hangs, with a windoze default [hourglass] cursor > > > Surely the subject was adequately addressed in "Desk Set" (Katherine > Hepburn, Spencer Tracy) > > It seems to work for me ... Mozilla Firefox 7.01 PC. You did select a valid item search for? Ben. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 18:17:02 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:17:02 -0600 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <50C918FF.10009@bitsavers.org> References: <50C918FF.10009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/12/12 3:27 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > At a superficial level, done by someone who never had to > user a batch system. Yes, it's clearly done by an "artist," not a mainframe operator. That said, the "art" is pretty well-executed. Maybe the artist can be hired to do the front-end on a 360 simulator? Somewhere below that piece is a link to a "Google in the BBS days" simulation. That one fails on technicality, too, as it continues to play the modem handshaking sound well after text has begun flowing to the screen. Still, a fun rendition of a computing experience the artist has likely only read about. -- jht From jon at jonworld.com Wed Dec 12 18:26:35 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:26:35 -0500 Subject: simh VAX 11/780 tech support Message-ID: Folks, I'm trying to get BSD 4.2 running on a VAX 11/780/simh setup. This is working well under OpenBSD. I have the 4.2 BSD VM up and running. I'm having difficulty with networking. I'm using the pre-compiled simh package from OpenBSD which has networking support and running it as root to make sure it has access to the network interface. simh seems to be attaching to the network interface; I'm getting status messages about how Eth is attached, etc. simh is 3.9. No network devices to show up under the OS, though. Given that 4.2 BSD has TCP, is made for VAX, etc, the default kernel should automagically detect the network "card" presented by the emulator, right? For some reason it isn't. I also tried the other xu type=deluna (I think that's it, I don't remember from memory.) Here is my boot.ini set cpu 128m set rq0 ra81 att rq0 rq.dsk set rq1 dis set rq2 dis set rq3 dis set xu enabled set xu type=deuna att xu0 em0 set rp dis set lpt dis set rl dis set tq dis set tu dis set tti 7b set tto 7b load -o boot42 0 d r10 9 d r11 0 run 2 Is it an ordering/address space thing? Do I have to throw the "xu" stuff further down in the file? Thanks! -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 18:39:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <50C91D03.3070200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> <50C91D03.3070200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20121212162411.Q94833@shell.lmi.net> > >> http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > On IE8, it hangs, with a gripe about IE8 > > (is halflife of IE versions now too short to even measure in montths?) > > On Mozilla Firefox, it hangs, with a windoze default [hourglass] cursor On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, ben wrote: > It seems to work for me ... Mozilla Firefox 7.01 PC. 4.0.1 My employer owns this machine, and does not want "unauthorized" reconfiguration. Since I will be retiring in another 1.035 semesters, I have chosen to comply, and not alter my assigned [NOT "administrator"] "privileges" > You did select a valid item search for? Neither browser ever got far enough to permit ANY entry. It is showing a splash/title screen and credits, with hourglass cursor, but not any sort of prompt. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 18:43:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:43:06 -0800 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50C9249A.5070003@sydex.com> On 12/12/2012 04:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: >> I found this clever and amusing. (-: >> http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > On IE8, it hangs, with a gripe about IE8 > (is halflife of IE versions now too short to even measure in montths?) > > On Mozilla Firefox, it hangs, with a windoze default [hourglass] cursor It runs fine on FF 16.0.2 running on Ubuntu. It felt familiar, particularly the tape drive reels clearly showing the effect of a vacuum column buffer. But I don't recall that TTY or 029 output was that uneven in the vertical axis. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 12 18:54:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:54:03 -0800 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <50C918FF.10009@bitsavers.org> References: <50C918FF.10009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50C9272B.2030403@sydex.com> On 12/12/2012 03:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The operator interaction with the program was pretty weird. > Maybe whoever created this animation didn't realize you didn't > run your own program from the system console of a 360. If you were working from the console, it wouldn't have been a TTY in any case, but probably the 1052 golf ball Selectric, which has a very different sound. --Chuck From ryan at hack.net Wed Dec 12 19:46:53 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:46:53 -0600 Subject: Amiga 600 to 1084s In-Reply-To: <1355355303.75836.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355355303.75836.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Analog RGB DB9 is the better connection. http://old.pinouts.ru/VideoCables/amiga_computer_rgb_pinout.shtml to http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/cbm/monitors/1084s/pinout.html The composite connection will suck. On Dec 12, 2012, at 5:35 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Best to use the 9 pin (cga?) jack on the back of the1084s or the rca jacks? If you were building the cable. Anyone have pinouts? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 12 20:02:11 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:02:11 -0500 Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows 98SE in a DOS Box In-Reply-To: <008301cdd8b9$40d14ba0$c273e2e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> <008301cdd8b9$40d14ba0$c273e2e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50C93723.30507@compsys.to> I thought that I should write this question first: Does anyone run any other emulators for the PDP-11 other than SimH or Ersatz-11? >Rob Jarratt wrote: >>Can anyone help with a LINK to a PDP-11 variant of SimH which runs in a Dos Box? >> >>While I am running these tests, does anyone use any other emulators than >>E11 or SimH? Charon used to be available, but does not seem to be around >>any more. >> >>Jerome Fine >> >Slightly puzzled because all SIMH versions running on Windows are console >applications. You can get Windows executables for the latest version of SIMH >from here: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip > >Sorry if I have misunderstood the question. > >Regards > >Rob > That is exactly the LINK that I was looking for! THANK YOU! By the time you get to be 74 years old, the unimportant things are difficult to remember. I have seen that site before, but it was not on my current list. Also that file contains ALL executables, so I just extracted PDP11.EXE and it runs like a charm out of the box. THANK YOU AGAIN! To address the other question again. Does anyone run any other emulators for the PDP-11 other than SimH or Ersatz-11? I have some code that should be tested on as many systems as possible. Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 20:08:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:08:04 -0500 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: <50C8EF1E.3090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50C93884.10806@neurotica.com> On 12/12/2012 04:13 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i feel like i am on the only guy in central canada into this stuff :'( > everytime i get a lead i am told your 10yrs to late That's exactly the way I felt in Florida, but with new tech stuff in addition to old tech stuff. I'm so glad I'm outta there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 21:27:33 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:27:33 -0500 Subject: simh VAX 11/780 tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > Folks, > > I'm trying to get BSD 4.2 running on a VAX 11/780/simh setup.. I'm > having difficulty with networking. Are you trying to tunnel your traffic over a wireless interface on the host machine running simh? 802.11 is not 802.3, but it's a common thing people try to do on laptops. http://www.mail-archive.com/simh at trailing-edge.com/msg01599.html -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 21:42:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:42:56 -0500 Subject: Apple computer keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <003a01cdd88f$e5526e40$aff74ac0$@com> <5A66489A-1EC2-458E-A619-C0A6446C5503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <322322B2-BE0C-416F-ADB4-AE1F5E635E3F@gmail.com> On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On the bright side, S-Video cables (4-pin Mini-DIN) work >> just fine, though they don't usually come in the nice >> "curly" form. You can usually get them quite a bit >> longer, though; I don't know what the maximum length of >> ADB is, but I suspect you could get at least a few >> meters out of it. > > Always wondered if that was the case. I've got plenty of ADB > keyboards lacking cables and plenty of S-Video cables. So both ADB > and SVid are wired straight-through? Yeah, ADB wouldn't work any other way (it's an open-collector shared bus, so the serial data pin needs to be the same on every plug). - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Dec 12 22:15:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 23:15:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows 98SE in a DOS Box In-Reply-To: <50C93723.30507@compsys.to> References: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> <008301cdd8b9$40d14ba0$c273e2e0$@ntlworld.com> <50C93723.30507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201212130415.XAA19299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Does anyone run any other emulators for the PDP-11 other than SimH or > Ersatz-11? Well, I have a PDP-11 emulator that has been gathering dust for a while. I don't really run it much. I didn't mention it because I don't emulate much real hardware, but if you're interested I can dig out details, or even make sure it gets dusted off and put up for anonymous FTP and/or git clone. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wilson at dbit.com Wed Dec 12 22:24:21 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 23:24:21 -0500 Subject: 8646 replacement (was: Unobtainium obtained!) In-Reply-To: <9B7B3323-6D07-40BC-8EB6-8516DE0CA4DC@gmail.com> References: <1E27523C-D341-4D2D-9042-0015A394E44E@shiresoft.com> <20121211190038.GA7044@dbit.dbit.com> <4431A0A5-CE61-49AD-905E-A462FAB774FA@gmail.com> <20121212014557.GA12736@dbit.dbit.com> <9B7B3323-6D07-40BC-8EB6-8516DE0CA4DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121213042421.GA30979@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 04:00:40PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >Now you got me thinking about it. :-) The 8646A (assuming it >doesn't differ significantly from the 8646 described in the >KS10 manual) That might have been my flaky memory inventing new stuff. What my flaky memory claims is that the 8646 and 8646A are the same except for speed (200ns vs. 150ns or something like that -- slower version in VAX and faster in KS10, or, I dunno, like whatever). >So, here's the question. Is there enough demand to make a >1k quantity of this? I don't think a smaller volume is >really going to be cost-effective. Building in 100 qty >drives the PCB cost up from $0.69 to $4.43, and the per-part >price goes up as well (not by as much); it would probably at >least double the price per unit. Still, $10 each might not >be bad for a replacement for a part that no longer exists, >and it's a lot easier to raise a thousand dollars than five >thousand. :-) No idea if it's of general appeal, I was just expressing my own fears (I needed an 8646A once before when DEC still had them and might again). $10 beats DEC's old price by 3:1 so I'd certainly be up for buying ten at that price (or something close to it), just to have on hand. Nice regulator! John Wilson D Bit From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Dec 12 22:34:47 2012 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 23:34:47 -0500 Subject: FFS? HP/3000 (?) Parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jon, On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 at 9:42, Jonathan Katz wrote: > In going through my archives/basement I found three HP 12747H 64K > Memory boards. These would be for an HP 1000 M/E/F-Series. Has anyone asked for them yet? -- Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 23:04:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 00:04:14 -0500 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <50C961CE.5020800@neurotica.com> On 12/12/2012 01:38 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >>>> >>The 11/750 was physically smaller, used 110VAC... limited initially >>>> >>to 2MB (later 8MB, then finally 14MB)... >>> > >>> >We ran ours on 208V, I think we had 4MB; we used a Fuji Eagle drive >>> and a >>> >CDC cartridge drive for disks and a Cipher streamer for tape. It >>> worked >>> >pretty well. >> I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen >> the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) > > Just to provide another data point, my 11/750 is the 110VAC variety. As is mine, as were the two I ran ~20yrs ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Dec 13 00:55:09 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 06:55:09 -0000 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left...) In-Reply-To: <50C81DD7.8010906@sydex.com> References: <50C81DD7.8010906@sydex.com> Message-ID: There were lots of them on 240v AC inn the UK Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 12 December 2012 06:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left...) On 12/11/2012 05:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm sure they must have made a 220VAC model, but I've only ever seen > the 110VAC type (sample size > 2) It's been more than 25 years, so my recollection may be hazy, but I think we had 208V 3-phase. I don't recall if it was delta or wye configured, but I tend to think it was the former. CPU from one phase, disk and tape drives from the other and our two big CDC line printers from the third. But as I said, it's been over 25 years since the electricians installed the stuff. We just went by what they recommended. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Dec 13 01:13:37 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 08:13:37 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. Message-ID: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Next time I'll get this: http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg Is anything known about this board here (Manufacturer, Adresses, Switch settings and so on)? Looks to me like an VAX upgrade to an PC with onboard SCSI, Ethernet and Serial Ports... I have 2 2nd rtVAX board here from a friend, this is a VME CPU with SCSI on board. I should look if I could get it to boot.. Any hints welcome, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 01:18:40 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 01:18:40 -0600 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: neat! On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:13 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Next time I'll get this: > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg > > Is anything known about this board here (Manufacturer, Adresses, > Switch settings and so on)? > > Looks to me like an VAX upgrade to an PC with onboard SCSI, Ethernet > and Serial Ports... > > I have 2 2nd rtVAX board here from a friend, this is a VME CPU with > SCSI on board. I should look if I could get it to boot.. > > Any hints welcome, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Dec 13 01:30:51 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 08:30:51 +0100 Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows 98SE in a DOS Box In-Reply-To: <201212130415.XAA19299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> <008301cdd8b9$40d14ba0$c273e2e0$@ntlworld.com> <50C93723.30507@compsys.to> <201212130415.XAA19299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201212130730.qBD7UpZf027054@ls-al.eu> Mouse wrote: > > Well, I have a PDP-11 emulator that has been gathering dust for a > while. I don't really run it much. > > I didn't mention it because I don't emulate much real hardware, but if > you're interested I can dig out details, or even make sure it gets > dusted off and put up for anonymous FTP and/or git clone. > I'm interested!! re, reiche From spedraja at ono.com Thu Dec 13 01:43:36 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 08:43:36 +0100 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funny (for me). Nostalgic and Funny (for my fellows in work, all of them programmers with 30 years of work in their shoulders). Technically inexact but similar in aspects to our old IBM 2970 and IBM 3600 terminal operation (for all of the previous) A real boring (for my daughter). Artistically well solved (for my son). Bad idea (for my Internet Explorer 8, suggesting me to change to IE9). Not special impact (for my Google Chrome and Firefox browsers). What's about something similar but more adjusted to reality as interface for some emulators rounding out there ? Regards Sergio 2012/12/13 Terry Stewart > I found this clever and amusing. (-: > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > Terry (Tez) > From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Dec 12 20:28:04 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:28:04 -0600 Subject: Google in the 1960's Message-ID: <50C93D34.8040208@comcast.net> Not sure if everyone has seen this or not, but trust me click this and get ready to be amazed! http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 13 02:22:58 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 03:22:58 -0500 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) References: Message-ID: ----- Previous Message: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:42:59 -0500 From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove I feel the same way about PDP-11s and PDP-8s in the Hamilton area of Ontario.Not that I have an '8 at present, but I really do want one. 'Course there are my "competitors" of sorts in Toronto and down near St. Catharine's, ...There's also the distinct problem I can't ever drive any form of motor vehicle (yay vision problems!), so I can't exactly go pick machines up; and shipping is a bit of a bitch. Cheers, Christian ------ Reply: I'm in Toronto but not a competitor and I do get to Hamilton occasionally, so if you ever need something picked up in my area and delivered (not necessarily immediately ;-) let me know. mike From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 02:38:24 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 02:38:24 -0600 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: from what i have been able to figure out i am the only person in manitoba with a pdp 8 or a pdp 11 :'( On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 2:22 AM, MikeS wrote: > ----- Previous Message: > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:42:59 -0500 > From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > > > I feel the same way about PDP-11s and PDP-8s in the Hamilton area of > Ontario.Not that I have an '8 at present, but I really do want one. > > 'Course there are my "competitors" of sorts in Toronto and down near > St. Catharine's, ...There's also the distinct problem I can't ever > drive any form of motor vehicle (yay vision problems!), so I can't > exactly go pick machines up; and shipping is a bit of a bitch. > > Cheers, > Christian > > ------ Reply: > > I'm in Toronto but not a competitor and I do get to Hamilton occasionally, > so if you ever need something picked up in my area and delivered (not > necessarily immediately ;-) let me know. > > mike > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 03:23:30 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:23:30 -0000 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <50C9272B.2030403@sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 13 December 2012 00:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What a service like Google would have looked > like in the 1960? > > > On 12/12/2012 03:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > The operator interaction with the program was pretty weird. > > Maybe whoever created this animation didn't realize you didn't > > run your own program from the system console of a 360. > It depends on your environment. At Newcastle University (UK) they ran MTS on a 360/67 and on a Saturday morning I did run my own programs from the console. I guess this was 1972 but the machine had been in place in the late 1960's. http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/15.html I doubt you would get the wood these days... > If you were working from the console, it wouldn't have been a > TTY in any > case, but probably the 1052 golf ball Selectric, which has a very > different sound. > I think in 1973 they started with remote TTYs and NUNET > --Chuck > > > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Dec 13 03:29:40 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:29:40 +0000 Subject: Computing at Bell Labs Holmdel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Love the music! On 1 December 2012 06:56, Jason T wrote: > Recently posted on the excellent AT&T Tech Channel YouTube feed, a > 1970s-era employee orientation film for the Bell Labs Holmdel > Computing Center in New Jersey. Lots to enjoy here for ccmp fans but > especially those of IBM Mainframe and unit record equipment: > > PartI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMYiktO0D64& > > Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aVOIuKVUc > > -- > silent700.blogspot.com > Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: > http://chiclassiccomp.org -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 13 04:13:50 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:13:50 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Retrochallenge 2013 Winter Warmup - Registration Now Open In-Reply-To: <50C9A9BB.40302@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <50C9A9BB.40302@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <50C9AA5E.20406@wickensonline.co.uk> Entry now Open for Retrochallenge 2013WW! Entry is now open for the 2013 Winter Warmup Competition to be run between January 1st and January 31st. Please email /wgoodf at googlemail dot com/with your name (or handle) a brief synopsis of your project and a URL for your blog. About Retrochallenge In a nutshell, the RetroChallenge is a loosely disorganised gathering of RetroComputing enthusiasts who collectively do stuff with old computers for a month. The event is very much open to interpretation? individuals set there own challenges, which can range from programming to multimedia work; hardware restoration to exploring legacy networking? or just plain dicking around. It really doesn?t matter what you do, just so long as you do it. While the RetroChallenge has its competitive side, it?s not really a contest? it?s more like global thermonuclear war ? everyone can play, but nobody really wins. Come on? give it a go! Competition Rules 1. RetroChallenge commences 1st January 2013 and runs until 31st January 2013. 2. In order to qualify, computer systems must by approximately 10 years old (or older!) however exceptions will always be made for exotica! 3. Gaming consoles and PDAs qualify if they were made in the previous century. 4. Where appropriate, replica hardware and emulators may be used. 5. Entrants are responsible for adequately documenting their projects and submitting occasional updates during the contest. 6. Projects may encompass any aspect of retro-computing that tickles the fancy of the individual entrant. 7. Winners will be carefully selected and thoughtfully chosen prizes presented (hopefully before the next challenge commences). 8. Have fun! http://www.retrochallenge.net From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 05:48:44 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:48:44 +0000 Subject: Apple computer keyboards In-Reply-To: <5A66489A-1EC2-458E-A619-C0A6446C5503@gmail.com> References: <003a01cdd88f$e5526e40$aff74ac0$@com> <5A66489A-1EC2-458E-A619-C0A6446C5503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12 December 2012 18:49, David Riley wrote: > On Dec 12, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> The Apple computer keyboards are now listed. All are complete, in good >> condition. Please expect some discoloration due to age. >> >> Detachable ADB cables are NOT included. > > On the bright side, S-Video cables (4-pin Mini-DIN) work > just fine, though they don't usually come in the nice > "curly" form. You can usually get them quite a bit > longer, though; I don't know what the maximum length of > ADB is, but I suspect you could get at least a few > meters out of it. Yeah, I've used a few of those over the years. Work a treat. Can also be used as ADB extension cables, handily. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 13 06:19:09 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:19:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, Henk Gooijen wrote: > And my VAX-11/750 runs on 220/240 VAC 50 Hz. > Although at the moment, the mains fuse in the house blows when > I turn the key :-( In my previous home the machine ran well on > a 16 Amps group. I have no clue yet as to why it blows the fuse > of the 16 Amps group after the move to this house. You probably have to change the automatic fuse and replace it with one that has a C characteristic instead of B. It's possible that you have a cheap or crappy fuse that doesn't really follow the specs. Christian From jon at jonworld.com Thu Dec 13 08:45:44 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:45:44 -0500 Subject: simh VAX 11/780 tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I'm trying to get BSD 4.2 running on a VAX 11/780/simh setup.. I'm >> having difficulty with networking. > > Are you trying to tunnel your traffic over a wireless interface on the host > machine running simh? 802.11 is not 802.3, but it's a common thing > people try to do on laptops. > > http://www.mail-archive.com/simh at trailing-edge.com/msg01599.html No; this is on a server, where I spun up its own OpenBSD VM to run SIMH underneath it. It's all wired ethernet. I think the issue is with 4.2BSD and not with SIMH or anything else. I used the distribution from http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pups/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/ In playing around in the 4.2 userland that is created I found... 1) MAKEDEV doesn't have info for "en0" 2) running "strings /vmunix | grep en%" doesn't find anything, like the kernel doesn't have ethernet device (xu) support built in 3) There is no uname in 4.2 BSD, so all I know is that the /vmunix supplied is "4.2 BSD UNIX #9: Wed Nov 2 16:00:29 PST 1983" 4) Looking at /sys/conf/GENERIC there is no entry for en0 (and on further examination, the compiled GENERIC is the same size/checksum as /vmunix) So, it looks like the default 4.2 BSD kernel doesn't have ethernet drivers. Off to compile a new kernel. I'm worried that even with a new kernel, I don't have the right MAKEDEV script and don't have the right major/minor numbers to even manually mknod the en0 device on my system. But I'll cross that bridge when I get there. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 09:08:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: FW: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C9EF68.4030601@neurotica.com> On 12/13/2012 03:38 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > from what i have been able to figure out i am the only person in manitoba > with a pdp 8 or a pdp 11 :'( I would be amazed if that were the case. Granted Pittsburgh (despite its reputation from its former years) is a very high-tech place, but it's a small city, and I've met a few people around here who either have or want PDPs of various sorts. They're just not on this mailing list. Maybe put up a Craigslist post looking for vintage stuff. I met an awesome local friend that way, who is now on this list. (Hi Eric!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 13 09:28:56 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 07:28:56 -0800 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: At 8:13 AM +0100 12/13/12, Holm Tiffe wrote: >Next time I'll get this: > >http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg > >Is anything known about this board here (Manufacturer, Adresses, >Switch settings and so on)? > >Looks to me like an VAX upgrade to an PC with onboard SCSI, Ethernet >and Serial Ports... > >I have 2 2nd rtVAX board here from a friend, this is a VME CPU with >SCSI on board. I should look if I could get it to boot.. > >Any hints welcome, > >Holm That's seriously interesting. I *think* I've heard of them, but can't remember for sure. I'll be watching this thread with interest. Unless someone like Ethan knows something your best bet is going to be the comp.os.vms newsgroup. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 09:43:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:13 AM +0100 12/13/12, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg >> >> Is anything known about this board here (Manufacturer, Adresses, >> Switch settings and so on)? >> >> Looks to me like an VAX upgrade to an PC with onboard SCSI, Ethernet >> and Serial Ports... > > That's seriously interesting. I *think* I've heard of them, but can't > remember for sure. I'll be watching this thread with interest. > > Unless someone like Ethan knows something your best bet is going to be the > comp.os.vms newsgroup. I was just looking at the picture and googling for any info. I don't have any experience with this product but the fact that it's called an "rtVAX 300" suggests to me that it may run VAXELN, a Pascal-centric real-time application environment. This may be an application engine for running a VAXELN app. I saw some presentations at a DECUS or two but never worked with it. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 13 09:51:38 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:51:38 -0600 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> http://odl.sysworks.biz/disk$vaxdocjun961/decw$book/d474aaa5.p77.decw$book Keyways Inc. 937-847-2300 this fellow has 2 available for sale. He is a commercial dealer in OH. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:29 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: rtVAX 300. At 8:13 AM +0100 12/13/12, Holm Tiffe wrote: >Next time I'll get this: > >http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg > >Is anything known about this board here (Manufacturer, Adresses, Switch >settings and so on)? > >Looks to me like an VAX upgrade to an PC with onboard SCSI, Ethernet >and Serial Ports... > >I have 2 2nd rtVAX board here from a friend, this is a VME CPU with >SCSI on board. I should look if I could get it to boot.. > >Any hints welcome, > >Holm That's seriously interesting. I *think* I've heard of them, but can't remember for sure. I'll be watching this thread with interest. Unless someone like Ethan knows something your best bet is going to be the comp.os.vms newsgroup. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 From abs at absd.org Thu Dec 13 09:59:58 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:59:58 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> Message-ID: On 13 December 2012 15:51, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://odl.sysworks.biz/disk$vaxdocjun961/decw$book/d474aaa5.p77.decw$book > > Keyways Inc. 937-847-2300 this fellow has 2 available for sale. He is a > commercial dealer in OH. Very helpful link! So... it has a full CVAX processor with 4 or 16M of RAM, serial console, optional SCSI and other goodies ( http://odl.sysworks.biz/disk$vaxdocjun961/decw$book/d474aaa5.p44.decw$book ) While it may have shipped for VAXELN, there should be enough of a machine there to run a full blown *nix (or if you ever got hold of the src to patch) VMS system... OK... so want one too :) From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 10:12:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:12:04 -0500 Subject: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: <50C9EF68.4030601@neurotica.com> References: <50C9EF68.4030601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2012, at 10:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/13/2012 03:38 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> from what i have been able to figure out i am the only person in manitoba >> with a pdp 8 or a pdp 11 :'( > > I would be amazed if that were the case. Granted Pittsburgh (despite > its reputation from its former years) is a very high-tech place, but > it's a small city, and I've met a few people around here who either have > or want PDPs of various sorts. They're just not on this mailing list. I'd be willing to bet that Pittsburgh is not a small city relative to most in Manitoba. It's actually not even that small relative to Philadelphia or Baltimore, neither of which I'd consider small. That said, Manitoba is an AWFULLY big province. You could probably find someone with similar interests, though they might be a fair distance away. > Maybe put up a Craigslist post looking for vintage stuff. I met an > awesome local friend that way, who is now on this list. (Hi Eric!) I found someone with a TON of old Mac stuff in Morgantown that way. Got some nice Apple Multisync monitors from him really cheap that I unfortunately had to give away when we moved to Philly because our first house here was way too small (alas). Always worth trying. - Dave From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Dec 13 10:21:32 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:21:32 -0700 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CA008C.8020700@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-13 08:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was just looking at the picture and googling for any info. I don't > have any experience with this product but the fact that it's called an > "rtVAX 300" suggests to me that it may run VAXELN, a Pascal-centric > real-time application environment. > > This may be an application engine for running a VAXELN app. I saw > some presentations at a DECUS or two but never worked with it. I'm trying to get my hands on VAXELN for years. But it seems, that nobody has a copy of the disks/tapes/whatever :( From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 13 10:44:24 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:44:24 -0600 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CA008C.8020700@e-bbes.com> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CA008C.8020700@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <004301cdd951$1c1e7970$545b6c50$@com> http://www1.aclabs.com/odl/bkb/vax_bookreader.shtml http://h30266.www3.hp.com/masterindex/installation_guide/installation_guide_ 012fd5a4.txt http://h30266.www3.hp.com/masterindex/spd/spd_00fe9638.txt http://www.ibb.net/~telkamp/vax/vms-inst.htm Hope maybe something useful here. Am asking a few DEC buddies if they have copies of the software. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: rtVAX 300. On 2012-12-13 08:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was just looking at the picture and googling for any info. I don't > have any experience with this product but the fact that it's called an > "rtVAX 300" suggests to me that it may run VAXELN, a Pascal-centric > real-time application environment. > > This may be an application engine for running a VAXELN app. I saw > some presentations at a DECUS or two but never worked with it. I'm trying to get my hands on VAXELN for years. But it seems, that nobody has a copy of the disks/tapes/whatever :( ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 11:32:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:32:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google in the 1960's In-Reply-To: <50C93D34.8040208@comcast.net> References: <50C93D34.8040208@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20121213091936.T13689@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, Nick Allen wrote: > get ready to be amazed! > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ I was not amazed at all. It will not run on anything but CURRENT browsers - it fails on IE8 (with a message saying to get current browser),, and hangs on FF4. While IE8 is not THE latest IE, I am offended that they would cutoff support for something that recent. I didn't even try it with LYNX. I dislike demands that one must always "upgrade", just because something newer EXISTS - I remember (at NASA GSFC) the need to rollback when one such "upgrade" (OS-360 V19?) went awry, and I personally stopped IMMEDIATE "upgrades" with PC-DOS 2. IFF it holds up well, then I will consider jeopardizing a stable system. "If you haven't upgraded since THURSDAY, then you aren't welcome!" We've been discussing it under the subject line of: Re: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 13 11:47:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:47:55 -0800 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50CA14CB.2040306@sydex.com> On 12/13/2012 01:23 AM, Dave wrote: >> If you were working from the console, it wouldn't have been a >> TTY in any >> case, but probably the 1052 golf ball Selectric, which has a very >> different sound. > > I think in 1973 they started with remote TTYs and NUNET In 1966, I personally used a TTY connected to a 360/40; but that wasn't my point--I've never seen a TTY used as a console keyboard/printer on a S/360 machine. IBM would almost have certainly limited options to a 1050-series device for that application. Given the 16-bit P-counter, this would have had to have been a 360/30; the 360/20 addressing scheme allowed for no more than 15 bit addresses and I think the actual limitation was 16K. I don't know about the 360/25, however--I never saw one. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 13 11:47:14 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 12:47:14 -0500 Subject: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:12:04 -0500 From: David Riley I'd be willing to bet that Pittsburgh is not a small city relative to most in Manitoba. It's actually not even that small relative to Philadelphia or Baltimore, neither of which I'd consider small. That said, Manitoba is an AWFULLY big province. You could probably find someone with similar interests, though they might be a fair distance away. ----- Reply: As a matter of fact Pittsburg's population is twice that of the entire province of Manitoba! It may indeed be a big province (almost the size of Texas), but its total population of around 1,250,000 scattered throughout that big province is half of Metropolitan Pittsburg's 2,500,000... From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 12:02:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:02:13 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CA1825.5090107@neurotica.com> On 12/13/2012 10:43 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was just looking at the picture and googling for any info. I don't > have any experience with this product but the fact that it's called an > "rtVAX 300" suggests to me that it may run VAXELN, a Pascal-centric > real-time application environment. I have one of these on a VME board. I've not yet tried to fire it up yet. It looks very interesting. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/rtVAX-300-1.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/rtVAX-300-2.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 13 12:15:40 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 10:15:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google in the 1960's In-Reply-To: <20121213091936.T13689@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Dec 13, 12 09:32:45 am" Message-ID: <201212131815.qBDIFe9219726564@floodgap.com> > > get ready to be amazed! > > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > I was not amazed at all. > > It will not run on anything but CURRENT browsers - it fails on IE8 (with a > message saying to get current browser),, and hangs on FF4. It does work on TenFourFox 17 on my now-considered-ancient G5, but while I like the animation, it's more of a class of performance art as far as I'm concerned. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 13 12:41:09 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:41:09 -0700 Subject: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: <50C9EF68.4030601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50CA2145.8020307@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/13/2012 9:12 AM, David Riley wrote: > I'd be willing to bet that Pittsburgh is not a small city relative > to most in Manitoba. It's actually not even that small relative > to Philadelphia or Baltimore, neither of which I'd consider small. > > That said, Manitoba is an AWFULLY big province. You could > probably find someone with similar interests, though they might > be a fair distance away. Hmm about a 13 hour SE drive from here. :) > >> Maybe put up a Craigslist post looking for vintage stuff. I met an >> awesome local friend that way, who is now on this list. (Hi Eric!) > > I found someone with a TON of old Mac stuff in Morgantown that > way. Got some nice Apple Multisync monitors from him really cheap > that I unfortunately had to give away when we moved to Philly > because our first house here was way too small (alas). Always > worth trying. > > > - Dave > Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 12:43:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:43:12 -0500 Subject: Google in the 1960's In-Reply-To: <201212131815.qBDIFe9219726564@floodgap.com> References: <201212131815.qBDIFe9219726564@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> get ready to be amazed! >>> http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ >> >> I was not amazed at all. >> >> It will not run on anything but CURRENT browsers - it fails on IE8 (with a >> message saying to get current browser),, and hangs on FF4. > > It does work on TenFourFox 17 on my now-considered-ancient G5, but while I > like the animation, it's more of a class of performance art as far as I'm > concerned. Well, and that's exactly what it is. I don't think it aspires to be anything else, and the author pretty much says as much in the "About" page. For what it is, it has a lot of attention to detail, but it isn't an emulator. - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 13:02:13 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:02:13 -0600 Subject: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: <50CA2145.8020307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50C9EF68.4030601@neurotica.com> <50CA2145.8020307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: winnipegs 750k metro. http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/8164948235/in/photostream/lightbox/ i've hit up the local unix users group i have hit up mines i have hit up service reps from back in the day recyclers even hit up demolition companies how i acquired my 8a. been told all the universities got rid of their stuff in the late 90's i've tried craigslist never got a responce and kijiji From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Dec 13 13:31:42 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:31:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? Message-ID: <32f9.5ddda37e.3dfb871e@aol.com> 360s always had selecrtric mech based consoles as I remember. Ed# smecc.org In a message dated 12/13/2012 11:03:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Message-ID: <50CA14CB.2040306 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 12/13/2012 01:23 AM, Dave wrote: >> If you were working from the console, it wouldn't have been a >> TTY in any >> case, but probably the 1052 golf ball Selectric, which has a very >> different sound. > > I think in 1973 they started with remote TTYs and NUNET In 1966, I personally used a TTY connected to a 360/40; but that wasn't my point--I've never seen a TTY used as a console keyboard/printer on a S/360 machine. IBM would almost have certainly limited options to a 1050-series device for that application. Given the 16-bit P-counter, this would have had to have been a 360/30; the 360/20 addressing scheme allowed for no more than 15 bit addresses and I think the actual limitation was 16K. I don't know about the 360/25, however--I never saw one. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 13 13:48:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:48:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Current verrsion of SimH for a PDP11 which runs under Windows 98SE in a DOS Box In-Reply-To: <201212130730.qBD7UpZf027054@ls-al.eu> References: <50C88007.7090403@compsys.to> <008301cdd8b9$40d14ba0$c273e2e0$@ntlworld.com> <50C93723.30507@compsys.to> <201212130415.XAA19299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201212130730.qBD7UpZf027054@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <201212131948.OAA24081@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Well, I have a PDP-11 emulator [...] >> I didn't mention it because I don't emulate much real hardware, but >> if you're interested I can dig out details, or even make sure it >> gets dusted off and put up for anonymous FTP and/or git clone. > I'm interested!! Supported hardware... For devices in I/O space, there's the console serial line, LTC, registers that appear in I/O space, and a wall-clock "device" I invented. (I'm mildly surprised I don't have anything more than this; it looks as though I had plans to add an RK11, and there's some code there, but it probably doesn't work right or I wouldn't've left it commented out from the driver list.) In other respects, it has MUL/DIV, floating point, and, looking over the code, appears to even have an MMU. The FTPable copy lives in ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/pdp11/. I just now checked, and it's up-to-date with respect to the master copy. It's documented poorly, though, and, if the file timestamps are to be believed, I haven't done anything with it since 2004. I'm fine with talking about it, if anyone wants. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 13 14:18:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 21:18:27 +0100 Subject: simh VAX 11/780 tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121213211827.790a0ff8f5b6a4884d831a48@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:45:44 -0500 Jonathan Katz wrote: > I'm worried that even with a new > kernel, I don't have the right MAKEDEV script and don't have the right > major/minor numbers to even manually mknod the en0 device on my > system. Maybe this has changed since 4.2BSD, but normaly Ethernet interfaces don't have device nodes. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 13 14:33:30 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 21:33:30 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> Message-ID: <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:59:58 +0000 David Brownlee wrote: > While it may have shipped for VAXELN, there should be enough of a > machine there to run a full blown *nix (or if you ever got hold of the > src to patch) VMS system... IIRC the rtVAX CPUs have a slightly different (only one level?) TLB / page table layout and thus are not able to run *nix. At least not without adapting the VM subsystem. See the KA620 CPU board. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 14:43:18 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 21:43:18 +0100 Subject: Old Unibus VAXen (was Re: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes, left...) In-Reply-To: References: <50C8CF0C.3060405@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I already figured that the home fuse of that group has a fast action. I planned to swap the automatic fuse with either a slow-blow standard fuse, or an automatic fuse with slower switch off time. But I just never got to do that ... and now the garage so so filled with goodies that I would have to move a lot of stuff just to get the wall plug picked up. My wife calls it junk, but that's just a matter of perspective. One day I will do the home fuse swap experiment ... I can not believe the VAX has suffered from the journey from the old house to the new house. I rolled it just 5 meters, into the truck using a hydraulic tailgate lift, and after a trip of 30 km (driving at sensible speed) unloaded and rolled another 5 meters. I can not believe that the wiring in the VAX is that bad, that really minor "shocks" will cause some full short circuit condition. Waiting for better times, then I will get the VAX running again! greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 13 14:53:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:53:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201212132053.PAA24354@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > IIRC the rtVAX CPUs have a slightly different (only one level?) TLB / > page table layout and thus are not able to run *nix. At least not > without adapting the VM subsystem. See the KA620 CPU board. I don't know about other rtVAXen, if any, but the KA620 I know reasonably well - I once built the kernel to manage the KA620 in a dual-processor KA630/KA620 system (and the OS hackery to speak to it from the KA630's OS, which IIRC was mtXinu 4.3+NFS). Based on that: the KA620 is just like the KA630, except that P0 and P1 page tables live in physical space instead of kernel virtual space. That is, P0BR and P1BR must be computed based on the page tables' physical addresses rather than their kernel virtual addresses. (This means they need to be physically contiguous rather than virtually contiguous, which is one potential issue.) Of course, if you're doing something that never uses P0/P1 space - stay entirely in kernel mode, or perhaps never even turn on MAPEN at all - you might be able to totally ignore this. But it won't run VMS, which I gather is what DEC cared about at the time. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 13:52:50 2012 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 19:52:50 +0000 Subject: HP Series 200 (eg 9816) - is there an Assembler? Message-ID: Hi, I've recently obtained a Series 200 machine, and have also just started to try out the excellent HP98x6 emulator: https://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 There are many disks for this machine at the HP Computer Museum: http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 but I can't see any reference for a suitable Assembler (for 68000). This would be a really useful piece of software, does anyone know of such a beast please? Regards, John From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 13 15:17:37 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 10:17:37 +1300 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 Message-ID: Just letting the group know that I've posted another video showcasing one of the models in my collection. This time it's the venerable Osborne 1 http://youtu.be/DsseQPkT_Bg Terry (Tez) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 13 15:19:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:19:48 -0800 Subject: HP Series 200 (eg 9816) - is there an Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50CA4674.6040508@bitsavers.org> On 12/13/12 11:52 AM, John S wrote: > > does anyone know of such a beast please? > it is on the ASSM disk of the Pascal Workstation Developers Kit http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/pascal/B3466A From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 15:25:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:25:28 -0500 Subject: 40 years of PDP-11 hoarding has to end... (England) In-Reply-To: References: <50C9EF68.4030601@neurotica.com> <50CA2145.8020307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50CA47C8.5050102@neurotica.com> On 12/13/2012 02:02 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > been told all the universities got rid of their stuff in the late 90's > i've tried craigslist never got a responce and kijiji Keep trying Craigslist. You have to catch it when the elusive folk you're looking for are reading it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 14:43:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 20:43:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: eBay VAX-11/780 has a few minutes left... In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Dec 12, 12 04:48:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Dec 12, 2012, at 15:40, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > 11/730. To fit a VAX processor onto 3 hex-heightcards using only stnadard > > ICs [1] is a hack. It;'s postly (unprotected) PALs. There are 8 MA291s > > for the ALU. The really stupid bit of design, and the boatie who came up > > with this needs a touch of the clue-by-four is that the microcode store > > is _DRAM_. Yes, you read that right. 4116s IIRC. The problem is, of > > course that the execution of the micorocde doens't access all locations > > in the store quickly enough, so the RAM is not autometically refreshed. > > You guessed it, the CPU is paused every so often asd the control store > > is refreshed. That's one thing that slows it right down. Why they didn't use > > SRAM is beyond me.... > > Link error: unresolved reference ([1]) Ooops... Let's resolve it. [1] There were actally 2 custom gate arrays in the 11/730, I suspect they were also used in the 11/750. They handle the error correction for ECC memory, and are thus not essential to understnading how the processor works. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 14:55:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 20:55:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple computer keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Dec 12, 12 05:05:26 pm Message-ID: > Always wondered if that was the case. I've got plenty of ADB > keyboards lacking cables and plenty of S-Video cables. So both ADB > and SVid are wired straight-through? Yes, but there is a Gotcha. The apple cable puts 4 separate signals on the 4 pins -- I think it's power, grounds, serial data and the on-button. An S video cable has 2 signals (luma and chroma) and 2 grounds. It's not unheard-of for S-vido cables to have the ground connected together, in which case they cause ADB syutemns to think the power button is held down (IIRC). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 15:38:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 21:38:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Series 200 (eg 9816) - is there an Assembler? In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Dec 13, 12 07:52:50 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi, > > I've recently obtained a Series 200 machine, and have also just started to = Which one? I haev a few of them -- 9826, 9836A, 9836CU, 9816 and 9817 IIRC > try out the excellent HP98x6 emulator: > > https://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 > > There are many disks for this machine at the HP Computer Museum: > > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=3D6 Along with a fari amount of documentation. > > but I can't see any reference for a suitable Assembler (for 68000). This wo= > uld be a really useful piece of software, does anyone know of such a beast = > please? IS oen included with the Pascal system? Somethign tells me it was, but I;ve never tried it. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 13 15:51:13 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:51:13 -0600 Subject: VAXELN software download Message-ID: <00e801cdd97b$f8c29940$ea47cbc0$@com> Does this help any? there are pre-formatted VAXeln disks at the Stromasys download page, e.g. MV3600, VAXserver3600, MV3900, VAXserver3900, MVII; network is enabled - eln-mv3600-net.zip _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 13 15:52:53 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:52:53 -0600 Subject: VAXELEN downloads Message-ID: <00ed01cdd97c$33f52b90$9bdf82b0$@com> http://www.stromasys.ch/downloads/ registration required _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 15:57:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:57:06 -0500 Subject: Apple computer keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D03375E-DFBD-4F08-B5C1-FD06A28481B0@gmail.com> On Dec 13, 2012, at 3:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Always wondered if that was the case. I've got plenty of ADB >> keyboards lacking cables and plenty of S-Video cables. So both ADB >> and SVid are wired straight-through? > > Yes, but there is a Gotcha. > > The apple cable puts 4 separate signals on the 4 pins -- I think it's > power, grounds, serial data and the on-button. An S video cable has 2 > signals (luma and chroma) and 2 grounds. It's not unheard-of for S-vido > cables to have the ground connected together, in which case they cause > ADB syutemns to think the power button is held down (IIRC). That wouldn't surprise me terribly much, actually, but I've been lucky enough to only use properly-wired S-Video cables (each ground is supposed to be a separate signal return for its corresponding signal. I can definitely imagine some cheap cables tying them together at the plug ends. You'd lose some of the video quality, but that's seldom mattered much to unscrupulous cable manufacturers. - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Thu Dec 13 15:58:24 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:58:24 -0600 Subject: another VAXELEN download Message-ID: <00f201cdd97c$f978d470$ec6a7d50$@com> This site has tons of VMS software http://www.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vmslt02a/vu/aaareadme.txt http://www.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vmslt02a/vu/ see vaxeln-idutil.zip _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5954 - Release Date: 12/12/12 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 16:28:17 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:28:17 -0600 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121212160100.G94833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50ca57e2.a864320a.7c91.68a7@mx.google.com> At 06:06 PM 12/12/2012, you wrote: >On Thu, 13 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > > I found this clever and amusing. (-: > > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > >On IE8, it hangs, with a gripe about IE8 >(is halflife of IE versions now too short to even measure in montths?) > >On Mozilla Firefox, it hangs, with a windoze default [hourglass] cursor Runs great on FF 17 here, under Windoze 7. >Surely the subject was adequately addressed in "Desk Set" (Katherine >Hepburn, Spencer Tracy) 309 . [Philosophy] Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 16:54:45 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: gma buss 2 amp fuses In-Reply-To: <50C911C0.3030009@sydex.com> References: <1355338789.8180.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50C8E1FF.6000409@jwsss.com> <50C911C0.3030009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1355439285.97512.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 12/12/2012 10:59 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Are these by default 250v? Thats all Radio Shack sells. I dont recall > there being a voltage rating on the old ones. I've seen AGC3 fuses for automotive use rated at 32V, but I've never seen a GMA fuse rated at less than 250V.? I've sometimes wondered if the AGC3 voltage rating was for marketing purposes. Anyone know for certain if there's a reason to purchase a 32-volt AGC3 over a 250 volt one? --Chuck C: My guess is since it's a 12 volt system, utilizing 250 volt fuses might make them more "durable", less prone to blow (given they're primarily intended for 120 volt environments). But hey I'm the one asking the questions. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 16:56:12 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga 600 to 1084s In-Reply-To: References: <1355355303.75836.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1355439372.90515.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> thanks a jillion dude. ________________________________ From: Ryan Brooks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 8:46 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 600 to 1084s Analog RGB? DB9? is the better connection. http://old.pinouts.ru/VideoCables/amiga_computer_rgb_pinout.shtml to http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/cbm/monitors/1084s/pinout.html The composite connection will suck. On Dec 12, 2012, at 5:35 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Best to use the 9 pin (cga?) jack on the back of the1084s or the rca jacks? If you were building the cable. Anyone have pinouts? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 18:00:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:00:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga 600 to 1084s In-Reply-To: <1355439372.90515.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355355303.75836.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1355439372.90515.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1355443203.93132.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> "The composite connection will suck." C: there are 2 jacks for "composite" video, such a misleading term oftentimes. The 1701 or 1702 Commie monitor had separate chroma inputs or some weirdness like that. As a video monitor, as serves, it had a nice clear picture, possibly on account of the weirdness. ?Of course I don't know a thing about the 1084s, having previously only hooked it up to a 128, and it looked nice. Can't remember which cable it used. It be gone. It did look surprisingly nice though. ?I exhumed these 2 ancient lcd panels, which take a form of composite video - separate r, g, b, and combined (composite) syncs. Another piece of weirdness I'll probably never see operate. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 18:01:20 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:01:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple Lisa, for those that asked In-Reply-To: <004801cdd891$9585e4d0$c091ae70$@com> References: <004801cdd891$9585e4d0$c091ae70$@com> Message-ID: <1355443280.44774.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> could be interested depending on price. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 20:27:06 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 20:27:06 -0600 Subject: FFS: HP 7908 Front Panels Message-ID: This is a bit of an obscure piece but I figured I'd check to see if there are any hardcore HP fans out there who might put them to use. I rescued two front panels (the upper bit with the holes for the drive and the logo) from the dump; unfortunately, no signs of the drives themselves. The drive is this one: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=536 And here is one of the two I have: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/DropBox#5821553079935201458 They're in quite nice shape, heavy plastic, no breaks, fairly clean. One has a sticker that should be easy to de-goo. Take one or both. Free for shipping (and a box if I can't scrounge one) from 60070, with preference to someone who has the HP equipment to use it. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 22:53:56 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 04:53:56 +0000 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1475478311-1355460836-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1899758419-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Actually it had the irony of telling me something new (guess I never searched google for such a normal word before). I just typed amiga and let it run with it. The result was the recent news that Amiga is porting some classic games to the blackberry tablet system. Interesting, albeit a funny combination of bankrupt verge companies playing with eachothers gear. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Stewart Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 12:27:23 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? I found this clever and amusing. (-: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ Terry (Tez) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 00:02:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 01:02:16 -0500 Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? In-Reply-To: <1475478311-1355460836-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1899758419-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1475478311-1355460836-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1899758419-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <36CD0A68-1C7E-46A7-BAEA-E56DC79C041B@neurotica.com> WTF? For the, what, eight people who bought those tablets? I'm willing to bet there are FAR more functioning Amigas out there than Blackberry tablets. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Dec 13, 2012, at 11:53 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Actually it had the irony of telling me something new (guess I never searched google for such a normal word before). I just typed amiga and let it run with it. The result was the recent news that Amiga is porting some classic games to the blackberry tablet system. Interesting, albeit a funny combination of bankrupt verge companies playing with eachothers gear. > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Stewart > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 12:27:23 > To: > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: What a service like Google would have looked like in the 1960? > > I found this clever and amusing. (-: > http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ > > Terry (Tez) > From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Dec 14 01:13:25 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 08:13:25 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:59:58 +0000 > David Brownlee wrote: > > > While it may have shipped for VAXELN, there should be enough of a > > machine there to run a full blown *nix (or if you ever got hold of the > > src to patch) VMS system... > IIRC the rtVAX CPUs have a slightly different (only one level?) TLB / > page table layout and thus are not able to run *nix. At least not > without adapting the VM subsystem. See the KA620 CPU board. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} I've found a thread in the netbsd lists about this: >>The 2nd Ed. VARM discusses the rtVAX, but doesn't mention specific >>models, but I'd gather this would be characteristic of all of them: >> >> [p. 422] >> >> 11.2.3 rtVAX Memory Management >> >> The rtVAX is a variant of the VAX Architecture. An rtVAX processor >> implements the per-process page tables in physical memory. All other >> VAX processors implement the per-process page tables in virtual >> memory. Therefore, translation of process-space addresses is >> different on an rtVAX than as described in Chapter 4. > >This is certainly true of the original rtVAX chip, the KA620. This was >basically a hacked KA630. The idea was to produce a chip that was mostly >a VAX but could not run VMS and hence could be sold cheap without >risking undercutting VMS sales (or so I heard). AFAIK, the later >rtVAX systems were based on standard chips - I never heard of a >cut down CVAX, for example (this doesn't mean it didn't happen though ...) > (http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.vax/2002-11/msg00073.html) ...so may be it is possible to run *nix or VMS on a rtVAX 300. I will have both boards next time (KAV30 is laying around here, but I've not tried to power on this thing jet. There are two 500MB SCSI discs too which have the software on it that was running on this VME System. No other Parts from this system are here (have a VME Craddle and several unusual 68000 CPUs in a external storage). The other thing is this ISA Board on the picture, this can't be a KAV30 but it seems to be very similar. Hope I get my hands on it today... Regards, Holm PS: (Jochen your discs aren't forgotten, hope I have time for them between christmas and new year..) -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From vansloot at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 17:14:35 2012 From: vansloot at gmail.com (Hans Van Slooten) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 17:14:35 -0600 Subject: New Aquisition In-Reply-To: <7EF455B7-5DCC-4BFC-A94B-7F0CC46B41C2@shiresoft.com> References: <3F8CBED7-8280-4241-B95A-4FE2CAB8EEBE@shiresoft.com> <20121212071300.GD14025@zoho.com> <7EF455B7-5DCC-4BFC-A94B-7F0CC46B41C2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Those had wonderful keyboards. I'm a lisp hacker in my free time and have often thought about trying to track one of those old Symbolics machines down. I look forward to your updates. Hans On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:13 PM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 08:50:57PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Just wanted to let folks know that my newest acquisition is in transit. > It should arrive next week. > >> > >> What is it you might ask? It's a Symbolics 3620. Spec'd out pretty > nicely with dual 750MB ESDI > >> drives, 8MW of RAM and the professional 19" monochrome monitor. All > tested and working with > >> Genera 8.3 and the Y2K patches. > >> > >> I'll let folks know when it arrives and I've had a chance to fire it up. > > > > Nice! Looking forward to a picture gallery. > > I'll put something up as soon as I get it unpacked and up and running. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy > > > From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 19:01:26 2012 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 01:01:26 +0000 Subject: HP Series 200 (eg 9816) - is there an Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many thanks, I will load up the Pascal system and have a play. Regards, John From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Dec 14 03:28:54 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 09:28:54 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CA008C.8020700@e-bbes.com> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CA008C.8020700@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50CAF156.3070400@wickensonline.co.uk> On 13/12/2012 16:21, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-12-13 08:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I was just looking at the picture and googling for any info. I don't >> have any experience with this product but the fact that it's called an >> "rtVAX 300" suggests to me that it may run VAXELN, a Pascal-centric >> real-time application environment. >> >> This may be an application engine for running a VAXELN app. I saw >> some presentations at a DECUS or two but never worked with it. > > I'm trying to get my hands on VAXELN for years. But it seems, that > nobody has a copy of the disks/tapes/whatever :( > In the meantime I found this in my archive, is this the sort of thing you're trying to locate (search for ELN)? http://slave.hecnet.eu/archive/VAX_MEDIA/CDBIN10NOV2/CDBIN10NOV21/CDROM/CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT;1 Regards, Mark. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Dec 14 03:37:27 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 10:37:27 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: [..] Here are the pictures of the VME Board that I have: http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-1.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-2.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-3.jpg On the upper handle: "PA 4101 G 691" "WNr. 10350" "DF04-VME-MPR2300A" On the lower: "Atlas Electronics" On the right Connector: T6010-DA .B04 KAV30-AD The guy that gave me the board mentioned that there was VMS running on this machine.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Fri Dec 14 07:07:29 2012 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 06:07:29 -0700 Subject: SCSI <-> USB References: <50C20C99.5020201@e-bbes.com> <37F5CE8D4D5D489DBC87C01E4969C158@RANGER1> Message-ID: <9D30E4784EB3474F8518869CF830CC11@RANGER1> I currently have the March 2003 version 1.0 software. I cannot seem to find a CD that I thought came with it. But I find that a newer (5.01) version is available from the RATOC site http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/download/software.html Along with the WIN7 version, as you said, requiring a key. I am using the U2SCX under WinXP (Pro). Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 05:35 PM Subject: Re: SCSI <-> USB > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) > wrote: >> I have and use a RATOC System U2SCXU (usb-hd50). >> With a couple other adaptors (hd50 gender changer, hd50-hd68) >> I usually connect to a SLR5 tape drive for tape reading and on occation, >> also a DAT24 drive (dds3). >> www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm >> I use Cygwin with the commands "mt" for tape control and "dd" to read >> with. > > Interesting...this cable is hard to find (only one on eBay, at a > laughable $179) but it happens to look exactly (save for the color of > the plastic shell) like the MicroTech USB-SCSI-HD50 I have here. The > last driver for the MicroTech was for Windows 2000, although I read on > one user's blog that he he got it to work in WinXP (albeit 32 bit > only.) OSX support also ended around 10.3 or 10.4 > > RATOC's site says their adapter is supported through Win7x64. > However, that driver download is behind a registration wall. I'd > really like to see if their driver would work with this earlier > MicroTech version of the device. Since you're using Cygwin, I am > guessing you are using Windows as well. > > -- > jht > From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Dec 14 13:36:29 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 20:36:29 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > [..] > > Here are the pictures of the VME Board that I have: > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-1.jpg > http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-2.jpg > http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-3.jpg > > On the upper handle: > > "PA 4101 G 691" > "WNr. 10350" > "DF04-VME-MPR2300A" > > On the lower: "Atlas Electronics" > > On the right Connector: T6010-DA .B04 KAV30-AD > > The guy that gave me the board mentioned that there was VMS running > on this machine.. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." ...anything known about this? It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, mostly selling some IBM Stuff. Maby I should aske there nicely... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Dec 14 13:40:10 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:40:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Extra BELLMAC-8 Microprocessor tutor and a DEC COMPUTER LAB 1969 Message-ID: <3abb.6b2dcb7.3dfcda9a@aol.com> The Bell Laboratories MAC Tutor for the BELLMAC-8 Microprocessor- A western Electric Computer! also have one extra DIGITAL - DEC COMPUTER LAB 1969 I would consider letting extra go for something profound for the museum here.... drop me a line off list please if interested. trade ideas include computers and broadcast gear and studio cameras. Also interested an items relation to Deaf telecommunications , Early Baudot ( not ASCII) teletypes, captioning issues and hardware , DPN Artifacts I am on digest and do not always read everything so email direct . Thanks in advance - Ed Sharpe Archivist For SMECC www.smecc.org From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Fri Dec 14 13:56:43 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 20:56:43 +0100 Subject: Univac 9400 console...... Message-ID: <50CB847B.8050300@bluewin.ch> Once more common sense went down the drain and I find myself the "proud" owner of a Univac 9400 console. The 1$ price seemed to good to let go. Now what the heck am I going to do with it..... Jos From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 14:02:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:02:46 -0500 Subject: Univac 9400 console...... In-Reply-To: <50CB847B.8050300@bluewin.ch> References: <50CB847B.8050300@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <50CB85E6.9020700@neurotica.com> On 12/14/2012 02:56 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Once more common sense went down the drain and I find myself the "proud" > owner of a Univac 9400 console. > The 1$ price seemed to good to let go. Wow...the 9400 has one of the coolest consoles around, even though it is sorta small. I'm shocked and amazed that it went for only a dollar. Great score. > Now what the heck am I going to do with it..... Appreciate, love it, and...take pictures of it for the rest of us! What better use is there for a dollar? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Fri Dec 14 14:04:46 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:04:46 -0500 Subject: Univac 9400 console...... In-Reply-To: <50CB847B.8050300@bluewin.ch> References: <50CB847B.8050300@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <909D6061-57A2-4762-B8D5-B5FFAC74AA36@jonworld.com> On Dec 14, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Once more common sense went down the drain and I find myself the "proud" owner of a Univac 9400 console. > The 1$ price seemed to good to let go. > > Now what the heck am I going to do with it..... Sounds awesome. How much of it? http://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/univac9400 From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Dec 14 14:06:32 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:06:32 -0600 Subject: Digi-Comp I (was: Re: VintageAppleNMore Etsy Store) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 21:34 -0600 12/8/12, Tony A. wrote: >I want one of the plastic DigiComp I's I had as a kid. I've got a paper >one, but I have not assembled it yet. >http://paperforest.blogspot.com/2006/02/digi-comp-1.html Mine is running. Well, not now, I'm typing. Maximum clock rate seems to be about 1 Hz for reliable operation; I have not tried ice-tea cooling for over-clocking. I have implemented a 1-bit + 2-bit adder, output register obviously the same as the input registers (concatenated), and a 3-bit counter with rollover. Pretty sure I'll need a memory expansion to implement tic-tac-toe. I highly recommend playing with it! No connection to seller, but had much fun, even without overclocking. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 14:41:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:41:32 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> On 12/14/2012 02:36 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems > Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." > > ...anything known about this? > > It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, > mostly selling some IBM Stuff. > > Maby I should aske there nicely... Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Dec 14 15:25:24 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:25:24 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/14/2012 02:36 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems > > Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." > > > > ...anything known about this? > > > > It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, > > mostly selling some IBM Stuff. > > > > Maby I should aske there nicely... > > Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! > > Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an > ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA What's wrong with the picture my friend made and sent me? (http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg) This link was already in my first post. Nothing special on the backside, Two MMJ connectors, 2 pushbutton Switches ( Reset, Halt?) and a single TIL311 are on the bracket side.. In what you are specially interested? I'll try to power up that thing tomorrow.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri Dec 14 15:59:50 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 21:59:50 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com>, <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BA9217@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> So the question of the day is still "what is that ISA card", right? Looks neat. Might have to hunt one down for fun too! (And the ISA-based PC to go with it) -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: rtVAX 300. Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/14/2012 02:36 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems > > Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." > > > > ...anything known about this? > > > > It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, > > mostly selling some IBM Stuff. > > > > Maby I should aske there nicely... > > Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! > > Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an > ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA What's wrong with the picture my friend made and sent me? (http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg) This link was already in my first post. Nothing special on the backside, Two MMJ connectors, 2 pushbutton Switches ( Reset, Halt?) and a single TIL311 are on the bracket side.. In what you are specially interested? I'll try to power up that thing tomorrow.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 16:13:23 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:13:23 -0600 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BA9217@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BA9217@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: prolly pluged into a isa only backplane On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > So the question of the day is still "what is that ISA card", right? > Looks neat. Might have to hunt one down for fun too! (And the ISA-based > PC to go with it) > > -Ben > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on > behalf of Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:25 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: rtVAX 300. > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 12/14/2012 02:36 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON > Systems > > > Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." > > > > > > ...anything known about this? > > > > > > It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, > > > mostly selling some IBM Stuff. > > > > > > Maby I should aske there nicely... > > > > Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! > > > > Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an > > ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > > New Kensington, PA > > What's wrong with the picture my friend made and sent me? > (http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg) > This link was already in my first post. Nothing special on the > backside, Two MMJ connectors, 2 pushbutton Switches ( Reset, Halt?) > and a single TIL311 are on the bracket side.. > In what you are specially interested? > > I'll try to power up that thing tomorrow.. > > Regards, > > Holm > > > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 16:55:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 17:55:14 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> On 12/14/2012 04:25 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems >>> Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." >>> >>> ...anything known about this? >>> >>> It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, >>> mostly selling some IBM Stuff. >>> >>> Maby I should aske there nicely... >> >> Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! >> >> Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an >> ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. > > What's wrong with the picture my friend made and sent me? > (http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg) > This link was already in my first post. Nothing special on the Oh I'm sorry Holm, somehow I missed that part of your first post. > backside, Two MMJ connectors, 2 pushbutton Switches ( Reset, Halt?) > and a single TIL311 are on the bracket side.. > In what you are specially interested? My AEON VME board has nearly the same complement of buttons and connectors, and a TIL311. One difference seems to be your board's two MMJs and my board's single RJ45. My board also has an AUI Ethernet connector. > I'll try to power up that thing tomorrow.. Sounds good. I'm interested to know how you make out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Fri Dec 14 19:39:32 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 20:39:32 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <84340A67-6478-4057-96D1-5EA2974BA5E2@jonworld.com> On Dec 14, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > My AEON VME board has nearly the same complement of buttons and > connectors, and a TIL311. One difference seems to be your board's two > MMJs and my board's single RJ45. My board also has an AUI Ethernet > connector. These boards seem pretty neat. They remind me of the early Linux/Alpha days. I remember early in the Linux/Alpha days one of the methods of getting a cheap Alpha was to buy a system that had a passive PCI backplane and one of the cards, made by an OEM, provided a 21164-based Alpha "home-brew" system for far less than even a Multia from DEC. I'm thinking this VME-based and ISA-based "rtVAX" setup is the same style and probably the father/grandfather of the PCI setup. Given the "rt" prefix, I'm assuming there is a "real-time" thing going on, where these were used for some kind of manufacturing process control and/or industrial system. I remember rumors when Intel was gearing up for Itanium (or was it Pentium III?) production that they were embarrassed that many of their assembly lines still ran a DEC/VMS-based systems for industrial control. I have no idea if that rumor is true or not, but I have little reason to doubt it. This was from the same era when Linux/Intel-based systems were creeping into data centers to run web servers but Dell was still a Sun customer as their HR, Payroll, and order systems were all Sun-based. From kelly at catcorner.org Fri Dec 14 20:38:05 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 21:38:05 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. References: <20121213071337.GC75178@beast.freibergnet.de> <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BA9217@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D62@meow.catcorner.org> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 5:13 PM > > prolly pluged into a isa only backplane > I have a couple of boards that do a similar function for the TI 990 series of mini computers. It was a TI/990 CPU and memory that used the ISA bus to communicate with a control program and storage on the 286 or higer ISA machine. In this instance, it will not work on a passive backplane. Kelly From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 14 23:04:21 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 23:04:21 -0600 Subject: Apollo DN3xxx 3Com Ethernet Card Find / QIC Tape Misery In-Reply-To: References: <50C7BAEB.50807@charter.net> Message-ID: <50CC04D5.1030001@charter.net> On 12/11/2012 10:06 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> As an FYI, I recently purchased an Ethernet card, 3Com Assembly number >> 2012-01 (I believe this is a 3c505). It works perfectly. >> (SNIP) > > Do any other network cards work? I might still have some 3c505 boards in > my stash but I have literally 100s of other 3Com, Western Digital/SMC, > Intel, etc cards of the same vintage. > I know of no other card that would work in a DN3xxx. > If someone has a genuine need for a /specific/ card, ping me and let me > know what you are looking for because I'll usually let it go for cheap > or trade for other boards. (Anyone /need/ one of those awful, slow, > buggy 3c501 boards for anything?) I stockpiled tons of this stuff for my > own use back when these sort of boards were available by the pound, and > with many boards I'll probably never use them all (the only exception > being certain EISA boards, which I'm probably not going to part with any > time soon). > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 00:31:37 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 07:31:37 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BA9217@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <20121215063137.GA94631@beast.freibergnet.de> Adrian Stoness wrote: > prolly pluged into a isa only backplane > [..] ...not in this Case. My friend sayd that he found it in a 486 System with an SCSI Controller and a Comtrol Rocket Port Serial Card. Connected to the PC-SCSI Controller was a 500MB SCSI drive, the SCSI on the rtVAX Card wasn't connected at all. Hee keeped the Disk, since they still run old HP Stuff for control and the small SCSI Disks are getting scarce. But he will send me a dd dump from the disk next time. BTW @Dave: I've contaced those guys: http://www.aeonsecuritysystems.com/Business_Security.htm ...but they are foundet in 2004 and have nothing todo with that board. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 00:51:43 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 00:51:43 -0600 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215063137.GA94631@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BA9217@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <20121215063137.GA94631@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: o ok neat card though has a small stash of some small sized scsi drives 500mb-4gig On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > prolly pluged into a isa only backplane > > > [..] > > ...not in this Case. My friend sayd that he found it in a 486 System > with an SCSI Controller and a Comtrol Rocket Port Serial Card. > Connected to the PC-SCSI Controller was a 500MB SCSI drive, the SCSI > on the rtVAX Card wasn't connected at all. Hee keeped the Disk, since > they still run old HP Stuff for control and the small SCSI Disks are > getting scarce. But he will send me a dd dump from the disk next time. > > > BTW @Dave: I've contaced those guys: > > http://www.aeonsecuritysystems.com/Business_Security.htm > > ...but they are foundet in 2004 and have nothing todo with that board. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From andrewjlynch at me.com Fri Dec 14 16:46:06 2012 From: andrewjlynch at me.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:46:06 +0000 Subject: rarest computers. was: RE: Xerox Alto Restoration + Emulation Message-ID: <06FC274C-38D9-415E-8D17-0DDE0FAFE9DC@me.com> Re 480z Hi Jules As far as I know the metal case was an inner London education authority variant (ilea). At that time every piece of electronic equipment used in the authorities schools was retro fitted with huge "child proof" casing. This meant that every electronic item had ugly GLC boxes fitted before we could use them. The 480zs were issued to all ILEA schools in this form in the early 80s. I remember using them at that time and wishing we had the BBCs. The rumour was that they'd done a deal with RM. Hope you don't mind me contacting you like this. You email came up on a search I'd put in for the 480z Andrew Sent from my iPad From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 05:53:39 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:53:39 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> References: <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/14/2012 04:25 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >>> I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems > >>> Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." > >>> > >>> ...anything known about this? > >>> > >>> It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, > >>> mostly selling some IBM Stuff. > >>> > >>> Maby I should aske there nicely... > >> > >> Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! > >> > >> Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an > >> ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. > > > > What's wrong with the picture my friend made and sent me? > > (http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg) > > This link was already in my first post. Nothing special on the > > Oh I'm sorry Holm, somehow I missed that part of your first post. > > > backside, Two MMJ connectors, 2 pushbutton Switches ( Reset, Halt?) > > and a single TIL311 are on the bracket side.. > > In what you are specially interested? > > My AEON VME board has nearly the same complement of buttons and > connectors, and a TIL311. One difference seems to be your board's two > MMJs and my board's single RJ45. My board also has an AUI Ethernet > connector. > > > I'll try to power up that thing tomorrow.. > > Sounds good. I'm interested to know how you make out. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Hmmm... Powered it up.. I've got the stairways down to a room where I store seldum used things and grabbled out an PC that I'm build to read/write 8 Inch Floppies, it is a PIII/500 or so.. Opened it up, and put in The rtVAX Card in one of the two ISA Slots from the Motherboard. Switched it on, Saw an "E" on the TIL311 and than BOOOM, white flash out of the PSU.., Fuse for the Mains circuit blown. (not really, it is a resettable 16A 230V device). Ok, pulled the broken PSU (Source for some colored DC Cables) and mounted another one.. maybe there is something true on that urban Legend that one should let cold devices acclimate a little before switching them on...Ok, maybe next time.. Ok, switched on again, Selftest on The TIL311 from F down to 5 and there it sits for ever. Pulled out a cable adapter from MMJ to DB9 that I used in conjunction with an DECServer 300.. Nothing on the line, same with the other MMJ Connector. Switched off and dismounted the Card. At first, that are no MMJ Receptacles there, that are normal symmetric Telephone like Receptacles with 6 prongs 8in them. Looked closer to the board and founf a 75C1406, Datasheet archive ... aha. Found the following connection for the two Receptacles: 1 - NC 2 - GND 3 - RxD 4 - TxD 5 - GND 6 - NC Ok, made an Adapter to DB9 again an looked to the Seyon Terminal: rtVAX 300 V1.2 E...D ...and there it sits for a while... Finally E...D...C...B...A...9...8... >>> Whow. Here we go.. >>> HELP DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L }] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ } []] EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L }] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ }] SET BOOT SET BFLG SET HALT <1-3> SET TRIG <0-1> SHOW { BOOT | BFLG | ETHER | HALT | MEM | TRIG } INITIALIZE UNJAM BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } CONTINUE START REPEAT TEST FIND [{ /MEM | /RPB }] XFER ... HALT HELP >>> SH MEM 01000000 00000000 00FFA600:00FFFFFF >>> SH BOOT .... >>> TEST 50 ?23 ILL CMD >>> TEST50 ?23 ILL CMD >>> SH ETHER ID 00-00-F8-50-93-14 >>> Hmm.. have to connect something I think... Is there someone that thinks that he know that the Pinout of the Ethernet Connector ist the same as on a DELQA for example? There is an Ethernet Transformer on The board next to the connector...no AUI at all? I think the Transformer is part of a PHY already... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 06:42:34 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:42:34 -0200 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <002701cdd949$bcc130f0$364392d0$@com> <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Things got interesting!!!!!!! Enviado pelo meu telemovel Em 15/12/2012, ?s 09:53, Holm Tiffe escreveu: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 12/14/2012 04:25 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>>>> I now hold the ISA Board in my Hands. This thing is labeled "AEON Systems >>>>> Incorporated, ISA300, Made in U.S.A." >>>>> >>>>> ...anything known about this? >>>>> >>>>> It seems that there is still a company named AEON Systems on the net, >>>>> mostly selling some IBM Stuff. >>>>> >>>>> Maby I should aske there nicely... >>>> >>>> Hey, my VME rtVAX-300 board was made by that company as well! >>>> >>>> Can you take some pics of that board? I find the idea of a VAX on an >>>> ISA card to be rather freaky but intriguing. >>> >>> What's wrong with the picture my friend made and sent me? >>> (http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg) >>> This link was already in my first post. Nothing special on the >> >> Oh I'm sorry Holm, somehow I missed that part of your first post. >> >>> backside, Two MMJ connectors, 2 pushbutton Switches ( Reset, Halt?) >>> and a single TIL311 are on the bracket side.. >>> In what you are specially interested? >> >> My AEON VME board has nearly the same complement of buttons and >> connectors, and a TIL311. One difference seems to be your board's two >> MMJs and my board's single RJ45. My board also has an AUI Ethernet >> connector. >> >>> I'll try to power up that thing tomorrow.. >> >> Sounds good. I'm interested to know how you make out. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > > Hmmm... Powered it up.. > > I've got the stairways down to a room where I store seldum used things and > grabbled out an PC that I'm build to read/write 8 Inch Floppies, it is a > PIII/500 or so.. > > Opened it up, and put in The rtVAX Card in one of the two ISA Slots from > the Motherboard. Switched it on, Saw an "E" on the TIL311 and than BOOOM, > white flash out of the PSU.., Fuse for the Mains circuit blown. (not > really, it is a resettable 16A 230V device). > > Ok, pulled the broken PSU (Source for some colored DC Cables) and mounted > another one.. maybe there is something true on that urban Legend that one > should let cold devices acclimate a little before switching them on...Ok, > maybe next time.. > > Ok, switched on again, Selftest on The TIL311 from F down to 5 and there it > sits for ever. Pulled out a cable adapter from MMJ to DB9 that I used in > conjunction with an DECServer 300.. Nothing on the line, same with the > other MMJ Connector. Switched off and dismounted the Card. > > At first, that are no MMJ Receptacles there, that are normal symmetric > Telephone like Receptacles with 6 prongs 8in them. Looked closer to the > board and founf a 75C1406, Datasheet archive ... aha. > > Found the following connection for the two Receptacles: > > 1 - NC > 2 - GND > 3 - RxD > 4 - TxD > 5 - GND > 6 - NC > > Ok, made an Adapter to DB9 again an looked to the Seyon Terminal: > > rtVAX 300 V1.2 > > E...D > > ...and there it sits for a while... > > Finally > > E...D...C...B...A...9...8... > >>>> > > Whow. Here we go.. > >>>> HELP > > DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L }] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/U] [/N:] > [{ | | + | - | * | @ } []] > EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L }] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/U] [/N:] > [{ | | + | - | * | @ }] > SET BOOT > SET BFLG > SET HALT <1-3> > SET TRIG <0-1> > SHOW { BOOT | BFLG | ETHER | HALT | MEM | TRIG } > INITIALIZE > UNJAM > BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } > CONTINUE > START > REPEAT > TEST > FIND [{ /MEM | /RPB }] > XFER ... > HALT > HELP > >>>> SH MEM > 01000000 > 00000000 > 00FFA600:00FFFFFF > >>>> SH BOOT > .... >>>> TEST 50 > > ?23 ILL CMD >>>> TEST50 > > ?23 ILL CMD >>>> SH ETHER > ID 00-00-F8-50-93-14 > >>>> > > Hmm.. have to connect something I think... > > Is there someone that thinks that he know that the Pinout of the Ethernet > Connector ist the same as on a DELQA for example? There is an Ethernet > Transformer on The board next to the connector...no AUI at all? I think the > Transformer is part of a PHY already... > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 07:38:53 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:38:53 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Things got interesting!!!!!!! > > Enviado pelo meu telemovel ..please answer at bottom.. no one can maintain a thread where people answering at top, at bottom or in the middle at the same time... ...things are getting more complicated now. Altough the rtVAX300 should have an integrated SCSI Controller, the 50 Pin can't be SCSI.. I've connected some disks, but the rtVAX isn't booting anymore, regardless of what disk is connected. There is a 74F373 that has some wirings to that connector and an EPM5032 is connected too. There is no row of GND Pins on that connector. The Ethernet Connector has 16 Pins and is a Berg type connector too. It seems as that is a somewhat translated AUI Connector, the one of the DELQA has 20 Pins, so it isn't the same at all. Maybe it should 1:1 connected to a DB15 receptacle with one Pin left free.. I think the next thing that I have todo is to reverse engeneer that Ethernet Interface so that I can try to boot that thing diskless with mopd. The Firmware shows that booting from the following devices should be possible: BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } EZA0 must be the Ethernet Interface, what could the other Abbrevations mean? I think that there is a mechanism to use the devices of the Host the card lives in so that it can use the Disk from the Host trough some bridging software. I have to look what I could find in the disk dump if I get it. As I wrote before the system was a 486PC with an Adaptec 1542CF and a Comtrol 4 Port Serial Card. Don't know more ... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 07:55:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:55:22 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121213213330.2c57540b2f1f05800cf88beb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > Things got interesting!!!!!!! > > > > Enviado pelo meu telemovel > > > ..please answer at bottom.. no one can maintain a thread where people > answering at top, at bottom or in the middle at the same time... > > ...things are getting more complicated now. > Altough the rtVAX300 should have an integrated SCSI Controller, the 50 Pin > can't be SCSI.. > > I've connected some disks, but the rtVAX isn't booting anymore, regardless > of what disk is connected. There is a 74F373 that has some wirings to that > connector and an EPM5032 is connected too. There is no row of GND Pins on > that connector. > > The Ethernet Connector has 16 Pins and is a Berg type connector too. > It seems as that is a somewhat translated AUI Connector, the one of the > DELQA has 20 Pins, so it isn't the same at all. Maybe it should 1:1 > connected to a DB15 receptacle with one Pin left free.. > > I think the next thing that I have todo is to reverse engeneer that Ethernet > Interface so that I can try to boot that thing diskless with mopd. > > The Firmware shows that booting from the following devices should be > possible: > > BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } > > EZA0 must be the Ethernet Interface, what could the other Abbrevations > mean? > > I think that there is a mechanism to use the devices of the Host the card > lives in so that it can use the Disk from the Host trough some bridging > software. I have to look what I could find in the disk dump if I get it. > As I wrote before the system was a 486PC with an Adaptec 1542CF and a > Comtrol 4 Port Serial Card. Don't know more ... > > Regards, > > Holm > -- Tried PRB1 >>> BO PRB1 83 BOOT SYS -PRB1 2..1..0.. %VAXELN system initializing VAXELN V4.3 300 SDDRIVER Revision 1.2 Seems that is a entry to some ROM based Firmware for VAXELN... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 10:59:07 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:59:07 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > > > Things got interesting!!!!!!! > > > > > > Enviado pelo meu telemovel > > > > > > ..please answer at bottom.. no one can maintain a thread where people > > answering at top, at bottom or in the middle at the same time... > > > > ...things are getting more complicated now. > > Altough the rtVAX300 should have an integrated SCSI Controller, the 50 Pin > > can't be SCSI.. > > > > I've connected some disks, but the rtVAX isn't booting anymore, regardless > > of what disk is connected. There is a 74F373 that has some wirings to that > > connector and an EPM5032 is connected too. There is no row of GND Pins on > > that connector. > > > > The Ethernet Connector has 16 Pins and is a Berg type connector too. > > It seems as that is a somewhat translated AUI Connector, the one of the > > DELQA has 20 Pins, so it isn't the same at all. Maybe it should 1:1 > > connected to a DB15 receptacle with one Pin left free.. > > > > I think the next thing that I have todo is to reverse engeneer that Ethernet > > Interface so that I can try to boot that thing diskless with mopd. > > > > The Firmware shows that booting from the following devices should be > > possible: > > > > BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } > > > > EZA0 must be the Ethernet Interface, what could the other Abbrevations > > mean? > > > > I think that there is a mechanism to use the devices of the Host the card > > lives in so that it can use the Disk from the Host trough some bridging > > software. I have to look what I could find in the disk dump if I get it. > > As I wrote before the system was a 486PC with an Adaptec 1542CF and a > > Comtrol 4 Port Serial Card. Don't know more ... > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > -- > > > Tried PRB1 > > >>> BO PRB1 > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > -PRB1 > > 2..1..0.. > > %VAXELN system initializing > > > VAXELN V4.3 300 > > > SDDRIVER Revision 1.2 > > > Seems that is a entry to some ROM based Firmware for VAXELN... > > Regards, > > Holm > -- Ok, I managed to get the ethernet part working in the meantime, the connector is really a one to one replacement for an AUI Connector, pin 16 left free. I found some game port connector with a strip in my dumpster, connected it and it works. I can boot netbsd's loader (mopboot) with the command "b eza0" from my freebsd machine, but it doesn't work at all. I don't currently know what version this is exactly, but I booted a cardstack with a KA630 a year (or two?) before from it. I used netbsd to install quasijarus on the disk (needed partitioning, and installing the filesystems). I wanted to have a somewhat classic BSD running on it but it seems there isn't any development in the direction anymore. I've mailed with M. Sokolov a little but nothing has changed since 2004 on his website. http://ifctfvax.harhan.org/Quasijarus/releases/ NetBSD as such has dropped the VAX so far as I know and even the last Releases aren't working anymore on a uVAXII vor example. I think I had to use some 5.x Release to get it booted from a DEQNA/DELQA at all. I'm pretty sure the loader works as such un the rtVAX, the networki interface should be supported so far as I've read, but I think the SLU's are not and so there is nothing to see... >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. ..Thats all Folks. It stalls there. Roger Ivie wrote in the ports vax mailinglist: >It should be possible to bring the rtVAX300 up with very little work. It >contains the following parts: > >- CVAX: Support for this processor exists. >- SGEC: Support for this ethernet controller exists. >- EPROM containing console code. It is capable of booting over the >ethernet; I used to boot VAXeln that way when we were manufacturing >- Console serial interface. This is a Signetics 2650. I don't know if >this is supported. Everything I know details about uses a DZ with >one of the ports acting as the console. Someone more knowledgeable >will have to talk about that. ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual for the SLUs and the NetBSD source to make the Console driver work. That shouldn't be to much work. As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. Maybe Dave is interested since he has at least such a rtVAX Card. I've wrote some Turbopascal on CP/M and later MSDOS, but I forgot almost all about Pascal in the meantime... so VAXELN might not be of much use to me. I'm having Problems with VMS too, installed it successfully on my VS4000/90 but it seems to not really "my thing"... don't switched it on for a year now.. Nevertheless I'll going to read some of the linked in documentation now, lets see if I can get some infos about the SLUs in that black box. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Dec 15 11:07:47 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:07:47 -0700 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CCAE63.7000801@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-15 09:59, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > NetBSD as such has dropped the VAX so far as I know and even the last > Releases aren't working anymore on a uVAXII vor example. I think I had to > use some 5.x Release to get it booted from a DEQNA/DELQA at all. Where did you read that? (I mean, that NetBSD doesn't work on uVAXII anymore?) From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 11:24:25 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:24:25 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CCAE63.7000801@e-bbes.com> References: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CCAE63.7000801@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20121215172425.GB5591@beast.freibergnet.de> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-12-15 09:59, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >NetBSD as such has dropped the VAX so far as I know and even the last > >Releases aren't working anymore on a uVAXII vor example. I think I had to > >use some 5.x Release to get it booted from a DEQNA/DELQA at all. > > Where did you read that? (I mean, that NetBSD doesn't work on uVAXII > anymore?) I couldn't tell you that exactly since I read that at least a year before (when I tried the uVAXII). Maybe it was only the netbooting or such, or it was something with the controllers (Emulex UC07/08) that I was using. Sorry about that. I've downloaded the last release to this time, but I had to go back. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 11:26:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:26:49 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215172649.GC5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > > > > > Things got interesting!!!!!!! > > > > > > > > Enviado pelo meu telemovel > > > > > > > > > ..please answer at bottom.. no one can maintain a thread where people > > > answering at top, at bottom or in the middle at the same time... > > > > > > ...things are getting more complicated now. > > > Altough the rtVAX300 should have an integrated SCSI Controller, the 50 Pin > > > can't be SCSI.. > > > > > > I've connected some disks, but the rtVAX isn't booting anymore, regardless > > > of what disk is connected. There is a 74F373 that has some wirings to that > > > connector and an EPM5032 is connected too. There is no row of GND Pins on > > > that connector. > > > > > > The Ethernet Connector has 16 Pins and is a Berg type connector too. > > > It seems as that is a somewhat translated AUI Connector, the one of the > > > DELQA has 20 Pins, so it isn't the same at all. Maybe it should 1:1 > > > connected to a DB15 receptacle with one Pin left free.. > > > > > > I think the next thing that I have todo is to reverse engeneer that Ethernet > > > Interface so that I can try to boot that thing diskless with mopd. > > > > > > The Firmware shows that booting from the following devices should be > > > possible: > > > > > > BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } > > > > > > EZA0 must be the Ethernet Interface, what could the other Abbrevations > > > mean? > > > > > > I think that there is a mechanism to use the devices of the Host the card > > > lives in so that it can use the Disk from the Host trough some bridging > > > software. I have to look what I could find in the disk dump if I get it. > > > As I wrote before the system was a 486PC with an Adaptec 1542CF and a > > > Comtrol 4 Port Serial Card. Don't know more ... > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Holm > > > -- > > > > > > Tried PRB1 > > > > >>> BO PRB1 > > > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > > > > -PRB1 > > > > 2..1..0.. > > > > %VAXELN system initializing > > > > > > VAXELN V4.3 300 > > > > > > SDDRIVER Revision 1.2 > > > > > > Seems that is a entry to some ROM based Firmware for VAXELN... > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > -- > > Ok, I managed to get the ethernet part working in the meantime, > the connector is really a one to one replacement for an AUI Connector, > pin 16 left free. I found some game port connector with a strip in my > dumpster, connected it and it works. > > I can boot netbsd's loader (mopboot) with the command "b eza0" from my > freebsd machine, but it doesn't work at all. > I don't currently know what version this is exactly, but I booted a > cardstack with a KA630 a year (or two?) before from it. I used netbsd > to install quasijarus on the disk (needed partitioning, and installing the > filesystems). > I wanted to have a somewhat classic BSD running on it but it seems there > isn't any development in the direction anymore. I've mailed with M. Sokolov > a little but nothing has changed since 2004 on his website. > > http://ifctfvax.harhan.org/Quasijarus/releases/ > > NetBSD as such has dropped the VAX so far as I know and even the last > Releases aren't working anymore on a uVAXII vor example. I think I had to > use some 5.x Release to get it booted from a DEQNA/DELQA at all. > > I'm pretty sure the loader works as such un the rtVAX, the networki > interface should be supported so far as I've read, but I think the SLU's > are not and so there is nothing to see... > > >>> b eza0 > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > -EZA0 > > 2..1..0.. > > > ..Thats all Folks. It stalls there. > > Roger Ivie wrote in the ports vax mailinglist: > > > >It should be possible to bring the rtVAX300 up with very little work. It > >contains the following parts: > > > >- CVAX: Support for this processor exists. > >- SGEC: Support for this ethernet controller exists. > >- EPROM containing console code. It is capable of booting over the > >ethernet; I used to boot VAXeln that way when we were manufacturing > >- Console serial interface. This is a Signetics 2650. I don't know if > >this is supported. Everything I know details about uses a DZ with > >one of the ports acting as the console. Someone more knowledgeable > >will have to talk about that. > > ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent > documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual for the > SLUs and the NetBSD source to make the Console driver work. > That shouldn't be to much work. > > > > As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in > VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. > Maybe Dave is interested since he has at least such a rtVAX Card. > > I've wrote some Turbopascal on CP/M and later MSDOS, but I forgot almost > all about Pascal in the meantime... so VAXELN might not be of much use to > me. > I'm having Problems with VMS too, installed it successfully on my VS4000/90 > but it seems to not really "my thing"... don't switched it on for a year > now.. > > Nevertheless I'll going to read some of the linked in documentation now, > lets see if I can get some infos about the SLUs in that black box. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- ... Addition: On both the VME and the ISA Card is a SCN2681 used for the SLUs. Could you verify this on yours Dave? (There is code existing for such chips in NetBSD, in the amiga and in the pc532 arch) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 15 11:29:11 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:29:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:59:07 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > NetBSD as such has dropped the VAX so far as I know No. Surely not! > and even the last Releases aren't working anymore on a uVAXII vor example. What brings you to this assumption? > I think I had to > use some 5.x Release to get it booted from a DEQNA/DELQA at all. That is the problem. There is some strange bug in the (network) boot loader. Maybe a GCC bug. Therefore netbooting has been broken for quite some time. As nobody with the required skils cares it stays there. After all NetBSD is a voluntary project. But you can use an older version of the bootloader to boot release-6 or even -current. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From abs at absd.org Sat Dec 15 12:35:25 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:35:25 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 15 December 2012 17:29, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:59:07 +0100 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> NetBSD as such has dropped the VAX so far as I know > No. Surely not! Definitely not :) There were a lot of VAX codegen issues with gcc 4.5, making the NetBSD-current tree between most of netbsd-5 and netbsd-6 pretty unusable for VAX, including the bootloader, but for netbsd-6 VAX was switched back to gcc 4.1 and should definitely run. In fact on most machines it should be better than netbsd-5 (some libm issues and certain QBUS MSCP driver fixes come to mind). >> and even the last Releases aren't working anymore on a uVAXII vor example. > What brings you to this assumption? > >> I think I had to >> use some 5.x Release to get it booted from a DEQNA/DELQA at all. > That is the problem. There is some strange bug in the (network) boot > loader. Maybe a GCC bug. Therefore netbooting has been broken for quite > some time. As nobody with the required skils cares it stays there. > After all NetBSD is a voluntary project. But you can use an older > version of the bootloader to boot release-6 or even -current. The NetBSD 6 bootloader *should* be working fine, certainly the failures I was seeing on earlier builds were no longer present. If anyone is finding that bootloader or any other regressions in netbsd-6, please let the port-vax at netbsd.org list know (or just niggle about it on here :) Of course the biggest issue for newer versions is likely to be code size, some form additional functionality but unfortunately too much from more recent gcc :/ David From abs at absd.org Sat Dec 15 13:04:43 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 19:04:43 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 15 December 2012 16:59, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I'm pretty sure the loader works as such un the rtVAX, the networki > interface should be supported so far as I've read, but I think the SLU's > are not and so there is nothing to see... [...] > ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent > documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual for the > SLUs and the NetBSD source to make the Console driver work. > That shouldn't be to much work. > > As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in > VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. > Maybe Dave is interested since he has at least such a rtVAX Card. NetBSD's boot consinit() uses vax_boardtype to determine what console calls to use: http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio.c?rev=1.15&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it may be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch statement. If docs are not available it may even be worth adding a 'default' to each of them in turn to see if it matches any of them (I'd start with a 630 :) My level of VAX assembly is probably at the "can recognise it two times out of three", but I'm happy to help with the boot console poking... From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 13:24:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 20:24:19 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> David Brownlee wrote: > On 15 December 2012 16:59, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > I'm pretty sure the loader works as such un the rtVAX, the networki > > interface should be supported so far as I've read, but I think the SLU's > > are not and so there is nothing to see... > [...] > > ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent > > documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual for the > > SLUs and the NetBSD source to make the Console driver work. > > That shouldn't be to much work. > > > > As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in > > VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. > > Maybe Dave is interested since he has at least such a rtVAX Card. > > NetBSD's boot consinit() uses vax_boardtype to determine what console > calls to use: > http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio.c?rev=1.15&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN > > If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it may > be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch statement. If > docs are not available it may even be worth adding a 'default' to each > of them in turn to see if it matches any of them (I'd start with a 630 > :) > > My level of VAX assembly is probably at the "can recognise it two > times out of three", but I'm happy to help with the boot console > poking... Hmm ...sounds interesting. ...and it sounds as I have to put eighter the KA630 back in my BA23 where currently A 11/83 lives or I have to put a 2nd disk into my 4000/90 to have at least a kind of NetBSD development system to compile something :-( I'm fascinated from those machines but I've done alsmost nothing in the direction of wirting software from them. (But I used the soldering iron often and repaired the machines (more the Boards that build them since I gote never a complete machine). I do even own a russian 11/03 (something like that, metrical Q-Bus, RX02 like Floppies) that is working again. I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the loader) since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. The SCN2681 however is a real serial chip with it's own register layout, I remember that I have programmed an 68681 sometimes in the past (which ist mostly the same)... The NetBSD 6 netboot makes a trap: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00001801 >>> ...so it isn't working any better as it is. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 15 14:18:13 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 21:18:13 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121215201813.GA60144@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > David Brownlee wrote: > > > On 15 December 2012 16:59, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > > I'm pretty sure the loader works as such un the rtVAX, the networki > > > interface should be supported so far as I've read, but I think the SLU's > > > are not and so there is nothing to see... > > [...] > > > ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent > > > documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual for the > > > SLUs and the NetBSD source to make the Console driver work. > > > That shouldn't be to much work. > > > > > > As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in > > > VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. > > > Maybe Dave is interested since he has at least such a rtVAX Card. > > > > NetBSD's boot consinit() uses vax_boardtype to determine what console > > calls to use: > > http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio.c?rev=1.15&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN > > > > If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it may > > be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch statement. If > > docs are not available it may even be worth adding a 'default' to each > > of them in turn to see if it matches any of them (I'd start with a 630 > > :) > > > > My level of VAX assembly is probably at the "can recognise it two > > times out of three", but I'm happy to help with the boot console > > poking... > > Hmm ...sounds interesting. > > ...and it sounds as I have to put eighter the KA630 back in my BA23 where > currently A 11/83 lives or I have to put a 2nd disk into my 4000/90 to have > at least a kind of NetBSD development system to compile something :-( > > I'm fascinated from those machines but I've done alsmost nothing in the > direction of wirting software from them. (But I used the soldering iron > often and repaired the machines (more the Boards that build them since I > gote never a complete machine). I do even own a russian 11/03 (something > like that, metrical Q-Bus, RX02 like Floppies) that is working again. > > I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the loader) > since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. The SCN2681 however > is a real serial chip with it's own register layout, I remember that I have > programmed an 68681 sometimes in the past (which ist mostly the same)... > > The NetBSD 6 netboot makes a trap: > > >>> b eza0 > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > -EZA0 > > 2..1..0.. > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00001801 > >>> > > ...so it isn't working any better as it is. > > Regards, > > Holm > I've looked in the file you referenced above, the Address from the KA630 gives a memory fault (#define KA630_NVR_ADRS 0x200B8024), but the following block may fit: case VAX_BTYP_43: case VAX_BTYP_410: case VAX_BTYP_420: put_fp = rom_putchar; get_fp = rom_getchar; test_fp = rom_testchar; rom_putc = 0x20040058; /* 537133144 */ rom_getc = 0x20040044; /* 537133124 */ break; .... >>> e/l 20040044/n:16 P 20040044 200418AD P 20040048 2004C359 P 2004004C 20041881 P 20040050 2004539C P 20040054 20041887 P 20040058 2004E4A0 P 2004005C 20041890 P 20040060 2A2A2A2A P 20040064 2A2A2A2A P 20040068 2A2A2A2A P 2004006C 2A2A2A2A P 20040070 2A2A2A2A P 20040074 2A2A2A2A P 20040078 2A2A2A2A P 2004007C 2A2A2A2A P 20040080 2A2A2A2A P 20040084 2A2A2A2A P 20040088 2A2A2A2A P 2004008C 2A2A2A2A P 20040090 2A2A2A2A P 20040094 2A2A2A2A P 20040098 2A2A2A2A P 2004009C 2A2A2A2A >>> >>> e/l 200418AD/n:16 P 200418AD 8FDD003C P 200418B1 000000EF P 200418B5 66CF01FB P 200418B9 0ACF9E38 P 200418BD 50D45200 P 200418C1 000C9F9A P 200418C5 91512004 P 200418C9 03135150 P 200418CD 9E012E31 P 200418D1 52000BCF P 200418D5 9A50019A P 200418D9 04000D9F P 200418DD 50915120 P 200418E1 31031351 P 200418E5 CF9E0117 P 200418E9 9A52000B P 200418ED 9F9A5002 P 200418F1 2004000E P 200418F5 51509151 P 200418F9 00310313 P 200418FD 0BCF9E01 P 20041901 039A5200 P 20041905 0F9F9A50 >>> ...at least there is some code. Dows anyone know of an VAX Dissassembler where one can disas just some bytes..? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 15 16:36:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:36:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent >>> documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual >>> for the SLUs [...] >>> As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in >>> VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. Somehow, I think this list should have no trouble turning up VAX geeks. I know VAX assembly language well and machine language moderately myself, even. >> If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it >> may be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch >> statement. Depends on the hardware. I gather from the discussion that there are multiple different types of rtVAX. The KA620 uses the same console as the KA630, which is accessed from software with mtpr/mfpr to/from four registers, two status and two data; the underlying UART hardware is either hidden by glue hardware or custom (well, unless there's a UART chip that happens to match, which there might be - see below). Things most UARTs set in software, like baud rate, are set by hardware (there's a rotary switch on the KA6[23]0 cab kit for speed). > I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the > loader) since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. I'm not sure what "standard SLUs" means across different architectures and buses and such. The standard PDP-11 SLU, to the extent that there is such a thing and to the extent that the info I've found is accurate, is a subset of the VAX console: the status bits that both machines have have the same values in their registers, and the VAX MTPR/MFPR registers correspond 1:1 to the PDP-11 SLU registers (the PR numbers are even in the same order as the PDP-11 addresses). So if there's a chip designed for a PDP-11 SLU, it may well be what the KA620 and/or KA630 uses. None of the UART chips I am (even vaguely) familiar with, like the 8530, fit this description. However, a serial line such as the VAX uses is not a complicated device; I could probably put one together from discrete logic in no more than an hour or two. It could very well be just a small section of one of the custom chips involved. And, of course, rtVAXen other than the KA620 (the KA620 is considered an rtVAX, is it not?) may well use something else. It's not clear to me exactly which model this thread is talking about. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 16:47:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:47:00 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <967F7DBC-41DE-4280-9EAB-EB26F4F9D6FE@gmail.com> On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:36 PM, Mouse wrote: > None of the UART chips I am (even vaguely) familiar with, like the > 8530, fit this description. However, a serial line such as the VAX > uses is not a complicated device; I could probably put one together > from discrete logic in no more than an hour or two. It could very well > be just a small section of one of the custom chips involved. Well, the 8530 is a bit of an oddball amongst UARTs. The PDP-11 standard console SLU is extremely simple and doesn't even provide any real buffering; my assumption from its design is that it's meant to be implemented with minimal hardware and used with minimal software (e.g. ODT, which is generally implemented in the microcode). I imagine the VAX, which is very much a spiritual descendant of the PDP-11, would use basically the same hardware (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 15 17:18:14 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:18:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215201813.GA60144@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215201813.GA60144@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212152318.SAA06169@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > rom_putc = 0x20040058; /* 537133144 */ > rom_getc = 0x20040044; /* 537133124 */ > >>> e/l 20040044/n:16 > P 20040044 200418AD ... > >>> e/l 200418AD/n:16 > > P 200418AD 8FDD003C > P 200418B1 000000EF ... > ...at least there is some code. > Dows anyone know of an VAX Dissassembler where one can disas just > some bytes..? Mine is pretty close to that. I converted the data you gave to a binary file (8K, based at 0x20040000), and after a few moments with the disassembler, here's what I get. (The .space pseudo-directives are space that exists in my 8K file but which you didn't give values for. The end of the disassembly is three .bytes because it's only part of an instruction.) Note the syntax is more Unix than DEC. If you prefer the DEC way, change $ into # and * into @, and probably throw in a few other tweaks I've forgotten. (It's been a very long time since I used MACRO-11.) # coresize = 0x2000 # corebase = 0x20040000 20040000: .space 68 20040044: .ptr 0x200418ad 20040048: .ptr 0x2004c359 2004004c: .ptr 0x20041881 20040050: .ptr 0x2004539c 20040054: .ptr 0x20041887 20040058: .ptr 0x2004e4a0 2004005c: .ptr 0x20041890 20040060: .ascii "****************************************" 20040088: .ascii "************************" 200400a0: .space 6157 200418ad: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 200418af: pushl $000000ef 200418b5: calls $1,0x20045120 200418ba: movab 0x200418c8,r2 200418bf: clrl r0 200418c1: movzbl *$2004000c,r1 200418c8: cmpb r0,r1 200418cb: beql 0x200418d0 200418cd: brw 0x200419fe 200418d0: movab 0x200418df,r2 200418d5: movzbl $1,r0 200418d8: movzbl *$2004000d,r1 200418df: cmpb r0,r1 200418e2: beql 0x200418e7 200418e4: brw 0x200419fe 200418e7: movab 0x200418f6,r2 200418ec: movzbl $2,r0 200418ef: movzbl *$2004000e,r1 200418f6: cmpb r0,r1 200418f9: beql 0x200418fe 200418fb: brw 0x200419fe 200418fe: movab 0x2004190d,r2 20041903: movzbl $3,r0 20041906: .byte 9a 20041907: .byte 9f 20041908: .byte 0f 20041909: .space 1783 /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 17:56:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:56:53 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50CD0E45.9060908@neurotica.com> On 12/15/2012 05:36 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the >> loader) since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. > > I'm not sure what "standard SLUs" means across different architectures > and buses and such. The standard PDP-11 SLU, to the extent that there > is such a thing and to the extent that the info I've found is accurate, > is a subset of the VAX console: the status bits that both machines have > have the same values in their registers, and the VAX MTPR/MFPR > registers correspond 1:1 to the PDP-11 SLU registers (the PR numbers > are even in the same order as the PDP-11 addresses). So if there's a > chip designed for a PDP-11 SLU, it may well be what the KA620 and/or > KA630 uses. There is, the DC319 "DLART". This is what the KA630 uses. I don't know about the KA620, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 16 01:27:01 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 08:27:01 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121216072701.GA1327@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >>> ...so I think the Console SLU is the problem, one needs a decent > >>> documentation for the rtVAX300 that includes the programming manual > >>> for the SLUs [...] > > >>> As long as I'm not finding a person that's a little bit involved in > >>> VAX Assembler and is using NetBSD on VAXen, my trip ends here. > > Somehow, I think this list should have no trouble turning up VAX geeks. > I know VAX assembly language well and machine language moderately > myself, even. Ok, now it is only the question if you all want to help a VAX Noob to get his machine working.. > > >> If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it > >> may be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch > >> statement. > > Depends on the hardware. I gather from the discussion that there are > multiple different types of rtVAX. The KA620 uses the same console as > the KA630, which is accessed from software with mtpr/mfpr to/from four > registers, two status and two data; the underlying UART hardware is > either hidden by glue hardware or custom (well, unless there's a UART > chip that happens to match, which there might be - see below). Things > most UARTs set in software, like baud rate, are set by hardware > (there's a rotary switch on the KA6[23]0 cab kit for speed). > > > I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the > > loader) since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. > > I'm not sure what "standard SLUs" means across different architectures > and buses and such. The standard PDP-11 SLU, to the extent that there > is such a thing and to the extent that the info I've found is accurate, > is a subset of the VAX console: the status bits that both machines have > have the same values in their registers, and the VAX MTPR/MFPR > registers correspond 1:1 to the PDP-11 SLU registers (the PR numbers > are even in the same order as the PDP-11 addresses). So if there's a > chip designed for a PDP-11 SLU, it may well be what the KA620 and/or > KA630 uses. > > None of the UART chips I am (even vaguely) familiar with, like the > 8530, fit this description. However, a serial line such as the VAX > uses is not a complicated device; I could probably put one together > from discrete logic in no more than an hour or two. It could very well > be just a small section of one of the custom chips involved. > > And, of course, rtVAXen other than the KA620 (the KA620 is considered > an rtVAX, is it not?) may well use something else. It's not clear to > me exactly which model this thread is talking about. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B We are talking about the rtVAX300, this black brick on that boards: http://www.tiffe.de/images/11122012114.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-1.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-2.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/images/KAV30-AD-3.jpg I've tried to netboot netbsd or at least its loader but it is writing nothing out to the console. David Brownlee gave the hint, that the loader uses ROM Code to write out something and that he thinks that putting an other Board in one of the case switches here my do the trick: http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio.c?rev=1.15&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN So I looked at the rom contents from the adresses there, that's what you have disasssembled. The KA630 Address is in a Header file (KA630_NVR_ADRS 0x200B8024) but there is no memory on this address on the ISA board from above. I'm trying to find rom_putchar and rom_getchar.. The rtVAX board has no DC319 chip, it uses the SCN2681 Double Uart fpr the Console and the auxilary Port. I've looked closer at that chip some time before and his register layout is pretty much different than the Standard DC319 Chip. (besides that you can do anything if you have 3 big Altera PLDs on the Board) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From Letterman at cinci.rr.com Sat Dec 15 22:19:50 2012 From: Letterman at cinci.rr.com (Mike Moran) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 23:19:50 -0500 Subject: Meshna Message-ID: <8A52DCA36DE04B0FA82622C2290EB171@comp1> I have one of the catalogues I think it is from 1987. Says sp 46 at bottom copy right 1987. From abs at absd.org Sun Dec 16 04:37:59 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:37:59 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 15 December 2012 19:24, Holm Tiffe wrote: > David Brownlee wrote: > >> If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it may >> be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch statement. If >> docs are not available it may even be worth adding a 'default' to each >> of them in turn to see if it matches any of them (I'd start with a 630 > > Hmm ...sounds interesting. > > ...and it sounds as I have to put eighter the KA630 back in my BA23 where > currently A 11/83 lives or I have to put a 2nd disk into my 4000/90 to have > at least a kind of NetBSD development system to compile something :-( While it would be helpful to have a normal VAX to hand to sanity check builds (or at least a simh-vax instance), the NetBSD build system is designed to be relatively easy to cross build on posix compliant hosts (Well, certainly most BSDs, Linux & OS X hosts). You should be able to download a source tree, then run './build.sh -m vax distribution'. It first builds a set of cross compiler & other tools, so after the above (or just a './build.sh -m vax tools') you should be able to go into any directory in the tree and run the nbmake-vax from the tools build. > I'm fascinated from those machines but I've done alsmost nothing in the > direction of wirting software from them. (But I used the soldering iron > often and repaired the machines (more the Boards that build them since I > gote never a complete machine). I do even own a russian 11/03 (something > like that, metrical Q-Bus, RX02 like Floppies) that is working again. > > I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the loader) > since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. The SCN2681 however > is a real serial chip with it's own register layout, I remember that I have > programmed an 68681 sometimes in the past (which ist mostly the same)... If we have a compatible ROM entry point [*] we can ignore the specific chip implementation for the loader, and once we can output something to the console future debugging becomes much easier... [*] eg: ka630_rom_putchar() and friends from http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio2.S?rev=1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=HEAD > The NetBSD 6 netboot makes a trap: > >>>> b eza0 > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > -EZA0 > > 2..1..0.. > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00001801 >>>> > > ...so it isn't working any better as it is. Is that the stock boot on the rtVAX? I would certainly expect that to choke as without a vax_boardtype case no console will be assigned. Of course its possible that the code to determine vax_boardtype is choking, which would make things potentially more entertaining. If it would be of any interest I can drop a couple of versions of boot with default added to the other cases. It *probably* won't Just Work, but its quick to change & test. Of course if we have the bootloader generating output the real fun of getting support for devices & the alternate VM setup can start :) From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 16 05:42:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 12:42:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> David Brownlee wrote: > On 15 December 2012 19:24, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > David Brownlee wrote: > > > >> If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it may > >> be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch statement. If > >> docs are not available it may even be worth adding a 'default' to each > >> of them in turn to see if it matches any of them (I'd start with a 630 > > > > Hmm ...sounds interesting. > > > > ...and it sounds as I have to put eighter the KA630 back in my BA23 where > > currently A 11/83 lives or I have to put a 2nd disk into my 4000/90 to have > > at least a kind of NetBSD development system to compile something :-( > > While it would be helpful to have a normal VAX to hand to sanity check > builds (or at least a simh-vax instance), the NetBSD build system is > designed to be relatively easy to cross build on posix compliant hosts > (Well, certainly most BSDs, Linux & OS X hosts). > > You should be able to download a source tree, then run './build.sh -m > vax distribution'. It first builds a set of cross compiler & other > tools, so after the above (or just a './build.sh -m vax tools') you > should be able to go into any directory in the tree and run the > nbmake-vax from the tools build. Ahh, ok, I'll look into that using my FreeBSD 8 here... Started do download some tgz's.. > > > I'm fascinated from those machines but I've done alsmost nothing in the > > direction of wirting software from them. (But I used the soldering iron > > often and repaired the machines (more the Boards that build them since I > > gote never a complete machine). I do even own a russian 11/03 (something > > like that, metrical Q-Bus, RX02 like Floppies) that is working again. > > > > I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the loader) > > since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. The SCN2681 however > > is a real serial chip with it's own register layout, I remember that I have > > programmed an 68681 sometimes in the past (which ist mostly the same)... > > If we have a compatible ROM entry point [*] we can ignore the specific > chip implementation for the loader, and once we can output something > to the console future debugging becomes much easier... > > [*] eg: ka630_rom_putchar() and friends from > http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio2.S?rev=1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=HEAD Yes I understand this, but in the KA630 Rom region is no memory assigned on the rtVAX 300 board, I get a memory fault if I try to access this region. The VAX_BTYP_43 case is looking better so far...see the snipped i posted and mouse disassemlbed.. t > > > The NetBSD 6 netboot makes a trap: > > > >>>> b eza0 > > > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > > > > -EZA0 > > > > 2..1..0.. > > ?06 HLT INST > > PC = 00001801 > >>>> > > > > ...so it isn't working any better as it is. > > Is that the stock boot on the rtVAX? Yes, this is NetBSD 6.0 ..installation/netboot/boot (or so..) > I would certainly expect that to > choke as without a vax_boardtype case no console will be assigned. Of > course its possible that the code to determine vax_boardtype is > choking, which would make things potentially more entertaining. That old boot code I had from the KA630 experiments in the mop dirctory worked better so far .. it has done nothing visible, but the TIL311 was displaying a zero, which means that the "OS" is running.. (Yes, I know, an endless loop around a console ready bit in a register is doing the same) > > If it would be of any interest I can drop a couple of versions of boot > with default added to the other cases. It *probably* won't Just Work, > but its quick to change & test. Oh yes please, I'll try them as fast as possible (to keep things somewhat interresting at least) > > Of course if we have the bootloader generating output the real fun of > getting support for devices & the alternate VM setup can start :) I don't expect much work in the VM area, from that what I've read DEC dropped the KA620 way and released a fully working CVAX in that thing. Got a hint from VAXman in the meantime (German VAx freak, friend of mine) he heard that the rtVAX was put in the guidance computer from the cruise missile .. may be the DOD wanted a working CPU.. The Network device should already be supported from netbsd.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 16 08:07:52 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 15:07:52 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > David Brownlee wrote: > > > On 15 December 2012 19:24, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > David Brownlee wrote: > > > > > >> If the rtVAX ROM console is 'close enough' to a normal VAX then it may > > >> be a simple case of adding its boardtype to the switch statement. If > > >> docs are not available it may even be worth adding a 'default' to each > > >> of them in turn to see if it matches any of them (I'd start with a 630 > > > > > > Hmm ...sounds interesting. > > > > > > ...and it sounds as I have to put eighter the KA630 back in my BA23 where > > > currently A 11/83 lives or I have to put a 2nd disk into my 4000/90 to have > > > at least a kind of NetBSD development system to compile something :-( > > > > While it would be helpful to have a normal VAX to hand to sanity check > > builds (or at least a simh-vax instance), the NetBSD build system is > > designed to be relatively easy to cross build on posix compliant hosts > > (Well, certainly most BSDs, Linux & OS X hosts). > > > > You should be able to download a source tree, then run './build.sh -m > > vax distribution'. It first builds a set of cross compiler & other > > tools, so after the above (or just a './build.sh -m vax tools') you > > should be able to go into any directory in the tree and run the > > nbmake-vax from the tools build. > > Ahh, ok, I'll look into that using my FreeBSD 8 here... > Started do download some tgz's.. > > > > > > I'm fascinated from those machines but I've done alsmost nothing in the > > > direction of wirting software from them. (But I used the soldering iron > > > often and repaired the machines (more the Boards that build them since I > > > gote never a complete machine). I do even own a russian 11/03 (something > > > like that, metrical Q-Bus, RX02 like Floppies) that is working again. > > > > > > I don't think that The KA630 code will work, (ok, maybe for the loader) > > > since the KA630 is using standard SLUs like the PDP11s. The SCN2681 however > > > is a real serial chip with it's own register layout, I remember that I have > > > programmed an 68681 sometimes in the past (which ist mostly the same)... > > > > If we have a compatible ROM entry point [*] we can ignore the specific > > chip implementation for the loader, and once we can output something > > to the console future debugging becomes much easier... > > > > [*] eg: ka630_rom_putchar() and friends from > > http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio2.S?rev=1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=HEAD > > Yes I understand this, but in the KA630 Rom region is no memory assigned > on the rtVAX 300 board, I get a memory fault if I try to access this > region. The VAX_BTYP_43 case is looking better so far...see the snipped i > posted and mouse disassemlbed.. > t > > > > > The NetBSD 6 netboot makes a trap: > > > > > >>>> b eza0 > > > > > > 83 BOOT SYS > > > > > > > > > -EZA0 > > > > > > 2..1..0.. > > > ?06 HLT INST > > > PC = 00001801 > > >>>> > > > > > > ...so it isn't working any better as it is. > > > > Is that the stock boot on the rtVAX? > > Yes, this is NetBSD 6.0 ..installation/netboot/boot (or so..) > > > I would certainly expect that to > > choke as without a vax_boardtype case no console will be assigned. Of > > course its possible that the code to determine vax_boardtype is > > choking, which would make things potentially more entertaining. > > That old boot code I had from the KA630 experiments in the mop dirctory > worked better so far .. it has done nothing visible, but the TIL311 was > displaying a zero, which means that the "OS" is running.. > (Yes, I know, an endless loop around a console ready bit in a register > is doing the same) > > > > > If it would be of any interest I can drop a couple of versions of boot > > with default added to the other cases. It *probably* won't Just Work, > > but its quick to change & test. > > Oh yes please, I'll try them as fast as possible (to keep things > somewhat interresting at least) > > > > > Of course if we have the bootloader generating output the real fun of > > getting support for devices & the alternate VM setup can start :) > > I don't expect much work in the VM area, from that what I've read DEC > dropped the KA620 way and released a fully working CVAX in that thing. > Got a hint from VAXman in the meantime (German VAx freak, friend of mine) > he heard that the rtVAX was put in the guidance computer from the cruise > missile .. may be the DOD wanted a working CPU.. > The Network device should already be supported from netbsd.. > > Regards, > > Holm > Ok, got the netbsd sources and crosscompiled them, modified consio.c to have a default: #ifdef notdef case VAX_BTYP_630: case VAX_BTYP_650: case VAX_BTYP_9CC: case VAX_BTYP_60: put_fp = pr_putchar; get_fp = pr_getchar; break #endif default: put_fp = rom_putchar; get_fp = rom_getchar; test_fp = rom_testchar; rom_putc = 0x20040058; /* 537133144 */ rom_getc = 0x20040044; /* 537133124 */ break; } return; .................... Same as those lines case VAX_BTYP_43: case VAX_BTYP_410: case VAX_BTYP_420: put_fp = rom_putchar; get_fp = rom_getchar; test_fp = rom_testchar; rom_putc = 0x20040058; /* 537133144 */ rom_getc = 0x20040044; /* 537133124 */ break; .... But this changes nothing. I found out, that the mopbootfile from NetBSD 6.0 that I used yesterday evening must ben defective, a new file ends like the previus (Netbsd 5.x) versions: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. .......................... Without any printout. Other rom adresses from the code above wouldn't work, this pair: rom_putc = 0x20040068; rom_getc = 0x20040054; Touches at least not so useful mem contents in the rtVAX300: P 20040048 2004C359 P 2004004C 20041881 P 20040050 2004539C P 20040054 20041887 P 20040058 2004E4A0 P 2004005C 20041890 P 20040060 2A2A2A2A P 20040064 2A2A2A2A P 20040068 2A2A2A2A <--- rom_putc P 2004006C 2A2A2A2A Those from VAX_BTYP_43 are looking a lot better but I got no output. Here a little more ROM Space: P 20040000 0004A531 P 20040004 09110002 P 20040008 6E6E6E6E P 2004000C 03020100 P 20040010 55555555 P 20040014 AAAAAAAA P 20040018 33333333 P 2004001C 00000000 P 20040020 200452B6 P 20040024 200452EF P 20040028 200452C2 P 2004002C 20045145 P 20040030 2004559C P 20040034 2004770C P 20040038 20045308 P 2004003C 00000000 P 20040040 2004539C P 20040044 200418AD P 20040048 2004C359 P 2004004C 20041881 P 20040050 2004539C P 20040054 20041887 P 20040058 2004E4A0 P 2004005C 20041890 P 20040060 2A2A2A2A P 20040064 2A2A2A2A P 20040068 2A2A2A2A P 2004006C 2A2A2A2A P 20040070 2A2A2A2A P 20040074 2A2A2A2A P 20040078 2A2A2A2A P 2004007C 2A2A2A2A P 20040080 2A2A2A2A P 20040084 2A2A2A2A P 20040088 2A2A2A2A P 2004008C 2A2A2A2A P 20040090 2A2A2A2A P 20040094 2A2A2A2A P 20040098 2A2A2A2A P 2004009C 2A2A2A2A P 200400A0 2A2A2A2A P 200400A4 2A2A2A2A P 200400A8 2A2A2A2A P 200400AC 092A0A0D P 200400B0 09090909 P 200400B4 09090909 P 200400B8 20202020 P 200400BC 2A0A0D2A P 200400C0 6F432020 P 200400C4 69727970 P 200400C8 20746867 P 200400CC 393120A9 P 200400D0 09093039 P 200400D4 09090909 P 200400D8 20202009 P 200400DC 0A0D2A20 P 200400E0 4420202A P 200400E4 54494749 P 200400E8 45204C41 P 200400EC 70697571 P 200400F0 746E656D P 200400F4 726F4320 P 200400F8 61726F70 P 200400FC 6E6F6974 P 20040100 614D202C P 20040104 72616E79 P 20040108 4D202C64 P 2004010C 2E737361 P 20040110 20090909 P 20040114 2A202020 P 20040118 202A0A0D P 2004011C 09090909 P 20040120 09090909 P 20040124 20202009 P 20040128 0A0D2A20 P 2004012C 5420202A P 20040130 20736968 P 20040134 74666F73 P 20040138 65726177 P 2004013C 20736920 P 20040140 6E727566 P 20040144 65687369 P 20040148 6E752064 P 2004014C 20726564 P 20040150 696C2061 P 20040154 736E6563 P 20040158 6E612065 P 2004015C 616D2064 P 20040160 65622079 P 20040164 65737520 P 20040168 6E612064 P 2004016C 63202064 P 20040170 6569706F P 20040174 2A202064 P 20040178 202A0A0D P 2004017C 6C6E6F20 P 20040180 69202079 P 20040184 6120206E P 20040188 726F6363 P 2004018C 636E6164 P 20040190 77202065 >>> The KA630 defines (from ka630.h) #define KA630_NVR_ADRS 0x200B8024 /* Definitions for various locations in the KA630 console page */ #define KA630_PUTC_POLL 0x20 #define KA630_PUTC 0x24 #define KA630_GETC 0x1C #define KA630_ROW 0x4C #define KA630_MINROW 0x4D #define KA630_MAXROW 0x4E #define KA630_COL 0x50 #define KA630_MINCOL 0x51 #define KA630_MAXCOL 0x52 ..pointing to not existent memory regions: >>> e/l 200B8024 ?2F MEM ERR >>> ... more Ideas? It where really good to know where te putc and getc routines in the KAV30 are.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 16 09:16:31 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:16:31 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 available. Message-ID: <527c356a3de4469f85d465cfc2cdc633.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> After long deliberation, I have decided to let go of one of my nicest best machines. It is a 2 rack config and comes complete with spares etc. For all details & history of this machine, see http://www.groenenberg.net/download/1135 Please contact me off list for more details if wanted, as well as offers for this machine. Please note, no cherry picking, this is an all or nothing deal. Regards, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Dec 16 09:33:53 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:33:53 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 available. In-Reply-To: <527c356a3de4469f85d465cfc2cdc633.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <527c356a3de4469f85d465cfc2cdc633.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50CDE9E1.2080209@update.uu.se> On 12/16/2012 04:16 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > After long deliberation, I have decided to let go of one of my nicest > best machines. It is a 2 rack config and comes complete with spares etc. > > That is a great system, I'm sure you will have many takers :) I browsed your site and on the 11/35 page you have this picture: http://www.groenenberg.net/pic/PDP/1135_cc1.jpg I'm very curious about the blue front panel on the left, what is it? and do you have a better picture? Regards, Pontus. From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Dec 16 09:47:43 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 10:47:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 available. In-Reply-To: <50CDE9E1.2080209@update.uu.se> References: <527c356a3de4469f85d465cfc2cdc633.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <50CDE9E1.2080209@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <8646B05E-B009-4A75-8B3D-B58042F35DA5@xlisper.com> On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:33 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 12/16/2012 04:16 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> After long deliberation, I have decided to let go of one of my nicest >> best machines. It is a 2 rack config and comes complete with spares etc. >> >> > That is a great system, I'm sure you will have many takers :) > > I browsed your site and on the 11/35 page you have this picture: > > http://www.groenenberg.net/pic/PDP/1135_cc1.jpg > > I'm very curious about the blue front panel on the left, what is it? and do you have a better picture? > > Regards, > Pontus. I know what that is! It's a PDP-11/35 with a custom front panel by Hendrix Electronics. Hendrix was a company that made pre-publishing systems for newspapers and was based in Manchester, NH. I worked for them a long time ago on a system for the Chicago Tribute that included a number of KL10s with PDP-11/34 terminal concentrators and TMS9900 based intelligent editing terminals. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 16 09:55:45 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:55:45 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 available. In-Reply-To: <50CDE9E1.2080209@update.uu.se> References: <527c356a3de4469f85d465cfc2cdc633.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <50CDE9E1.2080209@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <14cca15816de9b0c21213179207d75d4.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Pontus, That was a customized panel of an 11/40. That has been given away several year by now. It was for a company called 'Hendrix'. Regards, Ed > On 12/16/2012 04:16 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> After long deliberation, I have decided to let go of one of my nicest >> best machines. It is a 2 rack config and comes complete with spares etc. >> >> > That is a great system, I'm sure you will have many takers :) > > I browsed your site and on the 11/35 page you have this picture: > > http://www.groenenberg.net/pic/PDP/1135_cc1.jpg > > I'm very curious about the blue front panel on the left, what is it? and > do you have a better picture? > > Regards, > Pontus. > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 16 11:26:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 12:26:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [no-trimming damage repaired manually] > It where really good to know where te putc and getc routines in the > KAV30 are.. It's a long shot, but it might be worth typing in a small test program that uses IPRs 32-35, because if they work you don't need to go through a ROM code trampoline. Here's an example, including assembled binary. (This was hand-assembled; I thought I had a VAX assembler but can't seem to find it. But I checked by disassembling.) movb $'x,r0 90 8f 78 50 movab 9f,sp 9e af 31 5e bsbb 1f 10 06 3: bsbb 2f 10 0f bsbb 1f 10 02 brb 3b 11 fa 1: mfpr $34,r1 db 22 51 tstb r1 95 51 bgeq 1b 18 f9 mtpr r0,$35 da 50 23 rsb 05 2: mfpr $32,r1 db 20 51 tstb r1 95 51 bgeq 2b 18 f9 mfpr $33,r0 db 21 50 rsb 05 .align 4 .space 16 9: The code is PIC, so you can base it anywhere you like. At 0, for example, you might d/l/p 0 50788f90 d/l/p 4 5e31af9e d/l/p 8 0f100610 d/l/p c fa110210 d/l/p 10 955122db d/l/p 14 daf91851 d/l/p 18 db052350 d/l/p 1c 51955120 d/l/p 20 21dbf918 d/l/p 24 00000550 Then start it. My memory of VAX console is fuzzy, but I think that would be something like (again, based at 0) d pc 0 d psl 041f0000 g If MFPR/MTPR console access works, it should print an x and then echo back whatever is typed at it. I haven't been able to test this; none of my VAXen are in runnable shape right now. But I'm moderately sure the code is right; it's pretty simple. Perhaps someone with a KA630 set up to run can test it. On my emulator, it prints the x but nothing more - but, as far as I can tell from reading the code, that emulator doesn't support console input at all, so that's hardly surprising. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 12:59:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:59:10 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121215172649.GC5591@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215172649.GC5591@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CE19FE.8040201@neurotica.com> On 12/15/2012 12:26 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > On both the VME and the ISA Card is a SCN2681 used for the SLUs. > Could you verify this on yours Dave? I don't see a 2681 on mine. Interestingly, I don't see any recognizable UART on mine at all. I seem to recall that the rtVAX-300 module has an onboard console UART; is that the one you're connecting to when you interact with the ROM? Also, in case it is of any interest, my AEON VME board also contains a WD SCSI host adapter chip, and I have another (very thick) VME board from the same manufacturer, that came in the same card cage, that contains a smallish SCSI hard drive and a floppy drive. FYI (and for the archives), my board is model VME-300E. According to Manx, DEC publication EK-383AA-PG is the rtVAX-300 Programmers Guide. I've not been able to find a copy online. This page gives some specifications on the AEON VME300E board, as well as the DEC KAV30, which seems to be a similar product; https://mail.encompasserve.org/anon/htnotes/note?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=557.34 This seems to be some source code for an rtVAX-300 on a VME module, from SLAC: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/accel/ilc/codes/ATF2/control-software/epics-3.14.8/extensions/src/edm/util/misc/eln/ The one interesting thing here is map_sm.c, which is code to access the VMEbus from the rtVAX-300. Of course this isn't relevant to your ISA card, but I found it interesting. In its comments, it references an object library supplied by AEON that is specific to the VME300 board. That is somewhat discouraging. I note that on my AEON board, the rtVAX-300 module is mounted in a socket. Nice! I can see building a really sweet VMS laptop around that. B-) I need to find some time to power this up. On your board, you've found that you've got a VAXELN system in ROM. I wonder if it would be worth disassembling the initialization code there to figure out how to talk to the console. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Dec 16 13:22:21 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:22:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 available. In-Reply-To: <8646B05E-B009-4A75-8B3D-B58042F35DA5@xlisper.com> References: <527c356a3de4469f85d465cfc2cdc633.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <50CDE9E1.2080209@update.uu.se> <8646B05E-B009-4A75-8B3D-B58042F35DA5@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <50CE1F6D.1080303@update.uu.se> On 12/16/2012 04:47 PM, David Betz wrote: > On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:33 AM, Pontus wrote: > >> On 12/16/2012 04:16 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> After long deliberation, I have decided to let go of one of my nicest >>> best machines. It is a 2 rack config and comes complete with spares etc. >>> >>> >> That is a great system, I'm sure you will have many takers :) >> >> I browsed your site and on the 11/35 page you have this picture: >> >> http://www.groenenberg.net/pic/PDP/1135_cc1.jpg >> >> I'm very curious about the blue front panel on the left, what is it? and do you have a better picture? >> >> Regards, >> Pontus. > I know what that is! It's a PDP-11/35 with a custom front panel by Hendrix Electronics. Hendrix was a company that made pre-publishing systems for newspapers and was based in Manchester, NH. I worked for them a long time ago on a system for the Chicago Tribute that included a number of KL10s with PDP-11/34 terminal concentrators and TMS9900 based intelligent editing terminals. Thank you for enlightening me :) I've seen that panel once before. In this video from VCF 2006 (at arround 3 minutes) and I've always wondered what it was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLMHKZfi2PI Cheers, Pontus. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 16 12:20:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 18:20:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212152236.RAA05968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Dec 15, 12 05:36:08 pm Message-ID: > I'm not sure what "standard SLUs" means across different architectures > and buses and such. The standard PDP-11 SLU, to the extent that there > is such a thing and to the extent that the info I've found is accurate, Actually, the original PDP11 character devices -- the SLU, paper tape, punched card reader, etc were remarkably similar at the register level. In general there were 4 registers, receiver CSR (Command/Statues regiater (or control/status register), receiver data. transmitter CSR and transmitter data, A curiousity is that the Inmos Trnaputer link ionterface chip (C011) has a similar programming itnerface too... > is a subset of the VAX console: the status bits that both machines have > have the same values in their registers, and the VAX MTPR/MFPR > registers correspond 1:1 to the PDP-11 SLU registers (the PR numbers > are even in the same order as the PDP-11 addresses). So if there's a > chip designed for a PDP-11 SLU, it may well be what the KA620 and/or I beleive therere was, bit i was designed by DEC and is thus semi-custom. It was used on soem of the QBUS SLUs (DLV11-J ?) to save board space. > KA630 uses. > > None of the UART chips I am (even vaguely) familiar with, like the > 8530, fit this description. However, a serial line such as the VAX > uses is not a complicated device; I could probably put one together > from discrete logic in no more than an hour or two. It could very well You could. The first PDP11 SLU was the KL11 AFAIK. That is a dual-hieght board fo TTL and does current loop only. It was used with a separate (single height each) M105 address decoder and M782 interrupt controller. The later DL11s were gernally quad cards includign the address decoder and interrupt logic. They used a 40 pin dumb UART chip with TTL glue. > be just a small section of one of the custom chips involved. Indeed it might. I've not seen any prints of the MicroVaxen. Are they on bitsavers? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 13:37:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:37:40 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50CE2304.7030504@neurotica.com> On 12/16/2012 01:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> be just a small section of one of the custom chips involved. > > Indeed it might. I've not seen any prints of the MicroVaxen. Are they on > bitsavers? They are. I checked the KA630 print set; it uses a DC319 DLART. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 16 14:07:43 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:07:43 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > [no-trimming damage repaired manually] > > > It where really good to know where te putc and getc routines in the > > KAV30 are.. > > It's a long shot, but it might be worth typing in a small test program > that uses IPRs 32-35, because if they work you don't need to go through > a ROM code trampoline. Here's an example, including assembled binary. > (This was hand-assembled; I thought I had a VAX assembler but can't > seem to find it. But I checked by disassembling.) > > movb $'x,r0 90 8f 78 50 > movab 9f,sp 9e af 31 5e > bsbb 1f 10 06 > 3: bsbb 2f 10 0f > bsbb 1f 10 02 > brb 3b 11 fa > 1: mfpr $34,r1 db 22 51 > tstb r1 95 51 > bgeq 1b 18 f9 > mtpr r0,$35 da 50 23 > rsb 05 > 2: mfpr $32,r1 db 20 51 > tstb r1 95 51 > bgeq 2b 18 f9 > mfpr $33,r0 db 21 50 > rsb 05 > .align 4 > .space 16 > 9: > > The code is PIC, so you can base it anywhere you like. At 0, for > example, you might > > d/l/p 0 50788f90 > d/l/p 4 5e31af9e > d/l/p 8 0f100610 > d/l/p c fa110210 > d/l/p 10 955122db > d/l/p 14 daf91851 > d/l/p 18 db052350 > d/l/p 1c 51955120 > d/l/p 20 21dbf918 > d/l/p 24 00000550 > > Then start it. My memory of VAX console is fuzzy, but I think that > would be something like (again, based at 0) > > d pc 0 > d psl 041f0000 > g > > If MFPR/MTPR console access works, it should print an x and then echo > back whatever is typed at it. I haven't been able to test this; none > of my VAXen are in runnable shape right now. But I'm moderately sure > the code is right; it's pretty simple. Perhaps someone with a KA630 > set up to run can test it. On my emulator, it prints the x but nothing > more - but, as far as I can tell from reading the code, that emulator > doesn't support console input at all, so that's hardly surprising. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Thank you very much, I typed it in (copy&paste) but it bailed out at the 'g'. So I'm started over: >>> g ?23 ILL CMD >>> he DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L }] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ } []] EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L }] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ }] SET BOOT SET BFLG SET HALT <1-3> SET TRIG <0-1> SHOW { BOOT | BFLG | ETHER | HALT | MEM | TRIG } INITIALIZE UNJAM BOOT [/[R5:]] { EZA0 | PRA0 | PRBx | CSBx } CONTINUE START REPEAT TEST FIND [{ /MEM | /RPB }] XFER ... HALT HELP >>> d/l/p 0 50788f90 >>> d/l/p 4 5e31af9e >>> d/l/p 8 0f100610 >>> d/l/p c fa110210 >>> d/l/p 10 955122db >>> d/l/p 14 daf91851 >>> d/l/p 18 db052350 >>> d/l/p 1c 51955120 >>> d/l/p 20 21dbf918 >>> d/l/p 24 00000550 >>> d pc 0 >>> d psl 041f0000 >>> start 0 >>> ...unfortunately it does nothing at all, I have to halt it to get the chevron back. >>> e/l 0/n:32 P 00000000 50788F90 P 00000004 5E31AF9E P 00000008 0F100610 P 0000000C FA110210 P 00000010 955122DB P 00000014 DAF91851 P 00000018 DB052350 P 0000001C 51955120 P 00000020 21DBF918 P 00000024 00000550 P 00000028 00000000 P 0000002C 00000000 P 00000030 041F0000 P 00000034 0000000A P 00000038 00000000 In that NetBSD consinit.c are more ways to get characters in and out, it seems that different VAXen doing this really in different ways: http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/arch/vax/boot/boot/consio.c?rev=1.15&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN In the ka630.h are the neccessary defines fpr that CPU: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-current/src/sys/arch/vax/include/ka630.h ... but not only the rtVAX 300 want's it different it seems.. In the meantime I read the roms: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/VAX/isa300-rom.bin.gz It seems that there is a full VAXELN in that code. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 16 14:46:33 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:46:33 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CE19FE.8040201@neurotica.com> References: <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215172649.GC5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CE19FE.8040201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121216204633.GF6335@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/15/2012 12:26 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > On both the VME and the ISA Card is a SCN2681 used for the SLUs. > > Could you verify this on yours Dave? > > I don't see a 2681 on mine. Interestingly, I don't see any > recognizable UART on mine at all. I seem to recall that the rtVAX-300 > module has an onboard console UART; is that the one you're connecting to > when you interact with the ROM? ....have you taked a look below the EPROMs? Thats the place wehre mine is! The SCN2681 comes in different incarnations, this one has no handshake lines and therefore it sits in a small housing below an Eprom. > > Also, in case it is of any interest, my AEON VME board also contains a > WD SCSI host adapter chip, and I have another (very thick) VME board > from the same manufacturer, that came in the same card cage, that > contains a smallish SCSI hard drive and a floppy drive. The VME Baord has a SCSI Connector (at the front plate) too, haven't looked what chip is used jet. On the ISA Card is no SCSI Chip to find and as I already wrote the 50 pin connector isn't SCSI at all :-( > > FYI (and for the archives), my board is model VME-300E. My VME Board is from Atlas Elektronik (this is the german way to write Electronics) an on a handle "PA 4101 G 691\r\n WNr. 10350\r\nDF04-VME-MPR2300A" (\r\n are from me). Two paper labels on the VME Connectors have this: "MU24301172 30-35539-04" and "T6010-DA .B04 KAV30-AD" ... so its seems to be KAV30 compatible? The Memory Subboard has an Fuba and a digital label. It was used on a german Eploration Ship, the Polarstern before. so it isn't unlikely that it is german made... The KAV30-AD is the left board in the table from your document. > > According to Manx, DEC publication EK-383AA-PG is the rtVAX-300 > Programmers Guide. I've not been able to find a copy online. Searched for that too... > > This page gives some specifications on the AEON VME300E board, as well > as the DEC KAV30, which seems to be a similar product; > > > https://mail.encompasserve.org/anon/htnotes/note?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=557.34 > > This seems to be some source code for an rtVAX-300 on a VME module, > from SLAC: > > http://www.slac.stanford.edu/accel/ilc/codes/ATF2/control-software/epics-3.14.8/extensions/src/edm/util/misc/eln/ Hmm and the sources are containing a copyright notice from: ***************************************************************************** ; ; AEON Systems, Inc. ; 8401 Washington PL NE ; Albuquerque, NM 87113 ; (505) 828-9120 :-) sine that's next to you (from my point of view) ...do you want to call them and ask nicly if you can get some programming informations for your and the ISA-300 rtVAX board? > > The one interesting thing here is map_sm.c, which is code to access > the VMEbus from the rtVAX-300. Of course this isn't relevant to your > ISA card, but I found it interesting. In its comments, it references an > object library supplied by AEON that is specific to the VME300 board. > That is somewhat discouraging. Yes, I tought such things anyways. Bu may be that code is out of business for a enough long time (wo makes still an rtVAX) so may be we can get it? Unlikely, I know. I think there is a similar library for the ISA Board to get access to the PC. > > I note that on my AEON board, the rtVAX-300 module is mounted in a > socket. Nice! I can see building a really sweet VMS laptop around > that. B-) Hehe, I'll see that hing :-) (With some kind of Truck Accu) The CPU is socketed on both of my boards too.. > > I need to find some time to power this up. > > On your board, you've found that you've got a VAXELN system in ROM. I > wonder if it would be worth disassembling the initialization code there > to figure out how to talk to the console. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA You are right, but I don't know anything about VAX Machine Code, nor the VM Subsystem or even VME Bus and it's arbitation (this time). I'm a toatal noob.. If you want: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/VAX/isa300-rom.bin.gz that is what in the 4 TMS27C040 ROMs is. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 16 14:50:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 15:50:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Then start it. My memory of VAX console is fuzzy, but I think that >> would be something like (again, based at 0) >> d pc 0 >> d psl 041f0000 >> g > >>> g > ?23 ILL CMD Okay, I guess it's not g - at least not on your machine. > >>> he > CONTINUE That's probably what I wanted. > START This might do it too, but it also might want to find an RPB or an entry mask or some such. > >>> start 0 > ...unfortunately it does nothing at all, I have to halt it to get the > chevron back. I'm not surprised. You might try using continue instead, but, really, this was a long shot; my impression is that the more recent a VAX is the less likely MTPR/MFPR console is to work on it. > In the meantime I read the roms: > http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/VAX/isa300-rom.bin.gz I'll have a look and see if I can figure anything out. > It seems that there is a full VAXELN in that code. Certainly the text strings imply so. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 14:56:24 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:56:24 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50CE3578.7080807@gmail.com> On 10/3/2012 6:57 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. The KS10 FPGA is starting to come together. The KS10 CPU proper is very close to complete. It passes all of the basic instruction diagnostics and the diagnostic monitor boots and prints the prompt. I'm starting to implement the Unibus-based IO. Two Questions: I've implemented the DZ11 8-port terminal mux. I can find the diagnostic tape with the executable but not the source code for the DSDZA DZ11 diagnostic. Any ideas? I know absolutely nothing about Massbus or the disk systems that were common on the KS10. I would like to choose one disk drive type that the KS10 supported to implement/emulate. I'm not sure which one would be the 'best'. I'd appreciate suggestions. Rob Doyle doyle (at) cox (dot) net From d235j.1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 16 15:22:45 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:22:45 -0500 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> Message-ID: In his own words: >> How did the 555 name come about? > Signetics had ?500? numbers, and the earlier product I worked on was the 565, 566 and 567. It was just arbitrarily chosen. It was Art Fury (Marketing Manager) who thought the circuit was gonna sell big who picked the name ?555?. http://www.semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Camenzind_Page2.htm From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 16 15:25:45 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:25:45 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121216212545.GB73225@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >> Then start it. My memory of VAX console is fuzzy, but I think that > >> would be something like (again, based at 0) > > >> d pc 0 > >> d psl 041f0000 > >> g > > > >>> g > > > ?23 ILL CMD > > Okay, I guess it's not g - at least not on your machine. > > > >>> he > > > CONTINUE > > That's probably what I wanted. > > > START > > This might do it too, but it also might want to find an RPB or an entry > mask or some such. > > > >>> start 0 > > > ...unfortunately it does nothing at all, I have to halt it to get the > > chevron back. > > I'm not surprised. You might try using continue instead, but, really, > this was a long shot; my impression is that the more recent a VAX is > the less likely MTPR/MFPR console is to work on it. > Tried it (2 times), same as before, no x and no echo at all. :-( As Dave worked aout above, the OEM supplied some libraries and the VAXELN Kernel to the customer and so it is depending of the OEM how the lowlevel routines are implemented. The Interface for the customer was only the library... I don't think that this console Monitor is implemented in microcode anymore like the PDP11s ODT, even the russians PDP11s (K1801VM2 for example) hat it in an external ROM (with it's own address space). So it is the OEM that's to blame in this case, not DEC I think.. (Wich doesn't make it any better at all) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 16 15:43:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:43:29 -0800 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> On 12/16/2012 01:22 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > In his own words: > >>> How did the 555 name come about? >> Signetics had ?500? numbers, and the earlier product I worked on >> was the 565, 566 and 567. It was just arbitrarily chosen. It was >> Art Fury (Marketing Manager) who thought the circuit was gonna >> sell big who picked the name ?555?. > > http://www.semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Camenzind_Page2.htm I'd read that before and Hans' son Peter backs that up. But what was the thought process behind choosing "555"? Was it the notion of "triple nickel". The marketing types I knew back then would certainly have thought that way... I guess we'll never really know the "story behind the story" --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 16:15:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:15:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121216141504.S78368@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 16 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd read that before and Hans' son Peter backs that up. But what was > the thought process behind choosing "555"? Was it the notion of "triple > nickel". The marketing types I knew back then would certainly have > thought that way... > I guess we'll never really know the "story behind the story" "Damn! Someday, we gotta bild a circuit to do better key debouncing!" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 16:28:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 17:28:55 -0500 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50CE4B27.1040302@neurotica.com> On 12/16/2012 04:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> How did the 555 name come about? >>> Signetics had ?500? numbers, and the earlier product I worked on >>> was the 565, 566 and 567. It was just arbitrarily chosen. It was >>> Art Fury (Marketing Manager) who thought the circuit was gonna >>> sell big who picked the name ?555?. >> >> http://www.semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/Camenzind_Page2.htm >> > > I'd read that before and Hans' son Peter backs that up. But what was > the thought process behind choosing "555"? Was it the notion of "triple > nickel". The marketing types I knew back then would certainly have > thought that way... > > I guess we'll never really know the "story behind the story" I bet Camenzind had a Tek 555 on (or on a cart near) his bench! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 16 18:11:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 16:11:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <20121216141504.S78368@shell.lmi.net> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> <20121216141504.S78368@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121216161105.Q78368@shell.lmi.net> > "Damn! Someday, we gotta bild a circuit to do better key debouncing!" Sorry I do know how to spell "build", but this keyboard, . . . From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 19:12:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:12:45 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121216212545.GB73225@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216212545.GB73225@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50CE718D.5020402@neurotica.com> On 12/16/2012 04:25 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > As Dave worked aout above, the OEM supplied some libraries and the VAXELN > Kernel to the customer and so it is depending of the OEM how the lowlevel > routines are implemented. The Interface for the customer was only the > library... > I don't think that this console Monitor is implemented in microcode > anymore like the PDP11s ODT, even the russians PDP11s (K1801VM2 for > example) hat it in an external ROM (with it's own address space). > So it is the OEM that's to blame in this case, not DEC I think.. > (Wich doesn't make it any better at all) The monitors on the VAXen are not done in microcode, they are actually VAX code. The microcode-based ODT is particular to the LSI-11, F11, and J11-based PDP-11s. (any others?) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 19:39:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 17:39:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c Message-ID: <1355708345.92750.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 16 20:33:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 18:33:17 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <1355708345.92750.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355708345.92750.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50CE846D.2040802@sydex.com> On 12/16/2012 05:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models? Of what vintage? A modern HP12C has very little in common with a vintage HP16C. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 16 21:20:10 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 19:20:10 -0800 Subject: Gould/Millennium 9816 or 20? Message-ID: <50CE8F6A.3050307@bitsavers.org> Anyone have one of these development systems? I've had the manual for a while, and I think I just found a bunch of software for it. Looks to be Multibus-based from the pics in the manual on bitsavers. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 22:19:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c Message-ID: <1355717966.96119.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:33 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/16/2012 05:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models? > >Of what vintage? A modern HP12C has very little in common with a >vintage HP16C. > >--Chuck > > > I didn know that. I bought it at Wallyworld say 10 years ago. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 22:32:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:32:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c Message-ID: <1355718729.84374.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:19 PM PST Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > >------------------------------ >On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:33 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>On 12/16/2012 05:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models? >> >>Of what vintage? A modern HP12C has very little in common with a >>vintage HP16C. >> >>--Chuck >> >> >> >I didn know that. I bought it at Wallyworld say 10 years ago. Ill spill the beans. I had aspirations of turning it into something scientific. Rom swap or what have you. Naive I guess. Anyone want to make an offer? Barely used. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 22:32:17 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:32:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c Message-ID: <1355718737.21409.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:19 PM PST Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > >------------------------------ >On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:33 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>On 12/16/2012 05:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models? >> >>Of what vintage? A modern HP12C has very little in common with a >>vintage HP16C. >> >>--Chuck >> >> >> >I didn know that. I bought it at Wallyworld say 10 years ago. Ill spill the beans. I had aspirations of turning it into something scientific. Rom swap or what have you. Naive I guess. Anyone want to make an offer? Barely used. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 16 23:06:48 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:06:48 -0700 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <1355708345.92750.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355708345.92750.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50CEA868.7030108@brouhaha.com> Chris Tofu wrote: > What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models? The original ones had two or three chips. They all (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, 16C) had a proprietary "Nut" processor, software-compatible with that of the HP-41C, and an "R2D2" (RAM/ROM/Display Driver). The 15C has twice as much ROM and RAM as the others, so it had two R2D2 chips, the second of which has the display driver disabled and not bonded out. The bus is bit-serial with a two-phase clock, an instruction/address line, a data line, a sync line, and a flag input line. They did several cost reductions over the years, reducing it to a single chip, except for the 15C which still had the second R2D2. They introduced the "12C Platinum", which has a single-chip microcontroller made by GeneralPlus, using a 6502-compatible core. The firmware was completely reimplemented (twice!), and is not derived from the original 12C code. Most recently, they redesigned the 12C and 15C (reintroduced after having been discontinued in 1988) using a Atmel AT91SAM7L128 microcontroller, based on the ARM7DTMI core, with 128KB of flash memory. The firmware uses a simulation of the original Nut processor. If you wanted to repurpose a horizontal-format HP calculator, that's the model to use. There are six pads in the battery compartment that provide access to the CMOS-level UART and "ERASE" signal needed to reprogram the flash memory. However, once you reflash it with your own code, you can't make it a 12C again unless you have gotten an appropriate firmware image from somewhere, and it is NOT possible to extract such an image from that UART port. It is difficult to tell whether a 12C in the blister pack is the new ARM-based variant or old stock of the proprietary & masked-ROM variant. With the calculator out of the package you can easily tell because the ARM-based variant has a larger battery compartment that holds two CR2032 lithium coin cells, while the older models had either a single CR2032 or three A76/LR44 alkaline or silver oxide button cells. There is a lot of activity around repurposing the HP 20b and 30b business calculators, which use similar hardware but in a vertical format. The 20b and 30b actually do have a basic set of scientific functions, but they are buried in menus. There is some very powerful alternate scientific calculator firmware for those models, called "WP-34S". Unfortunately the 20b and 30b are being discontinued. The other model that shares essentially the same ARM7 based hardware architecture is the 10bII+ (also a business calculator), but I haven't yet heard of any serious efforts at repurposing that or the new 12C. Eric [Disclaimer: While I've never been an employee of HP nor provided contract services to them, I did provide them with some assistance in debugging their Nut simulation code used in the new 12C and 15C, and provided them with some high-performance BCD arithmetic algorithms. However, I take no responsibility for bugs in their simulation code, including several known bugs.] From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 00:45:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:45:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c Message-ID: <1355726725.37338.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> mine takes 3 lr44s. Yippee I have the original. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Dec 17 01:14:49 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 23:14:49 -0800 Subject: NE555 story on ED In-Reply-To: <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> References: <50C8E071.7020002@sydex.com> <007b01cdd8a3$2c9036d0$85b0a470$@com> <50C8E934.80005@sydex.com> <50CE4081.4030502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000901cddc26$33e53620$9bafa260$@comcast.net> I have a 1972 Signetics Linear Integrated Circuits data book that has a two page "New Product Advanced Information" data sheet in the 555 Timer. The 500 parts in the index are: OP Amps 516, 531, 533, 536, 537 Voltage Regulators 550 Comparators 518, 526, 527, 529 Communications 501, 510, 511, 515, 592 Consumer 540, 555 Phase Locked Loops 560, 561, 562, 565, 566, 567 Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NE555 story on ED On 12/16/2012 01:22 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > In his own words: > >>> How did the 555 name come about? >> Signetics had "500" numbers, and the earlier product I worked on was >> the 565, 566 and 567. It was just arbitrarily chosen. It was Art >> Fury (Marketing Manager) who thought the circuit was gonna sell big >> who picked the name "555". > > http://www.semiconductormuseum.com/Transistors/LectureHall/Camenzind/C > amenzind_Page2.htm I'd read that before and Hans' son Peter backs that up. But what was the thought process behind choosing "555"? Was it the notion of "triple nickel". The marketing types I knew back then would certainly have thought that way... I guess we'll never really know the "story behind the story" --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 17 02:02:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 09:02:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: [..] Googled for MACRO32 a little and finally found this http://softlab-pro-web.technion.ac.il/projects/VAX11_Simulator/html/index.html ..a free to download Assembler/Simulator for Windows, haven't tried to do anything with it jet... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 17 02:44:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 03:44:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Mouse wrote: > [...] > Googled for MACRO32 a little and finally found this > http://softlab-pro-web.technion.ac.il/projects/VAX11_Simulator/html/index.html > ..a free to download Assembler/Simulator for Windows, haven't tried > to do anything with it jet... I'm not sure why you named me, but in case it was a suggestion that I do something with it, that's highly unlikely to happen. Most briefly, I don't do Windows; to go into more detail would turn this email longer than I think appropriate (but of course I can if anyone cares). However, I also note that I don't see any indication what terms it is licensed under, which would make many people (those who care about such things, at least) hesitate to do anything at all with it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 17 03:12:06 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:12:06 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121217091206.GB1484@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > Mouse wrote: > > > [...] > > > Googled for MACRO32 a little and finally found this > > > http://softlab-pro-web.technion.ac.il/projects/VAX11_Simulator/html/index.html > > > ..a free to download Assembler/Simulator for Windows, haven't tried > > to do anything with it jet... > > I'm not sure why you named me, but in case it was a suggestion that I > do something with it, that's highly unlikely to happen. Most briefly, > I don't do Windows; to go into more detail would turn this email longer > than I think appropriate (but of course I can if anyone cares). > > However, I also note that I don't see any indication what terms it is > licensed under, which would make many people (those who care about such > things, at least) hesitate to do anything at all with it. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I must do Windows for Accounting and tax purposes, but I only do this on 2 Notebooks that I have for this. My OS for daily work is FreeBSD. and so would the first try to use this with wine... As for the copyrigth, I mailed them before my previous post (which wasn't that simple since one should can read hebrew when he tries this..) This is Software from an University and you can even download the sources, so I think it will be free for non commercial use like BSD for Example in the US. I should be a suggestion, that's right and I'll try it at least. ...so far so good. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Dec 17 10:59:44 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:59:44 -0600 Subject: computer recycler in the UK Message-ID: <003d01cddc77$e9edd7f0$bdc987d0$@com> This company will sell in large or small qty to end users, they have old retro equip, and newer equip. Anthony Watmore TechniMove Recycles LTD Phone: 00 44 7949 752252 sales at tmoverecycles.com _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5964 - Release Date: 12/16/12 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 17 11:49:47 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:49:47 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: [..] If I would try to find the putc call myself, is the most used calling convention on the VAX putting the character on the stack or should I put it in R0 or something? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 14:06:57 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:06:57 -0800 Subject: Another Symbolics on eBay In-Reply-To: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> References: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50CF7B61.6040402@gmail.com> I know you guys love the Symbolic 3620 stuff. It's a Unfortunately, local pickup only in Tarrytown, NY. No monitor but, keyboard and mouse. Sma guy has a MacIvory 2 for sale too. What sort of video out did these guys have and how hard would it be to find a monitor that worked ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/110991206525 From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 17 14:23:44 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:23:44 -0800 Subject: Another Symbolics on eBay In-Reply-To: <50CF7B61.6040402@gmail.com> References: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> <50CF7B61.6040402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6FE12138-EF3B-4CC0-A451-B206D1357781@shiresoft.com> On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:06 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I know you guys love the Symbolic 3620 stuff. It's a Unfortunately, local pickup only in Tarrytown, NY. No monitor but, keyboard and mouse. Sma guy has a MacIvory 2 for sale too. > > What sort of video out did these guys have and how hard would it be to find a monitor that worked ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/110991206525 The issue is that the Symbolics machines of the 36xx generations (L & G machines) didn't have a monitor per se. They had a "console". There was one cable from the CPU to the "console" which contained the monitor. The keyboard & mouse plugged into the console. It's a fairly complicated beast (see http://www.loper-os.org/?p=52). There does exist a "console box" (see http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/console-box.html) but that only allows you to attach the keyboard and mouse when you're using a color monitor (which unfortunately the 3620 doesn't support?not enough slots). You could contact David Schmidt (sales at symbolics-dks.com) to see if he'd be willing to sell a "naked" 17" or 19" monochrome console. TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 17 15:02:51 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:02:51 -0800 Subject: HP Series 200 (eg 9816) - is there an Assembler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Although, not an HP, I have a 68K assembler in Forth that is usedon the Canon Cat to recompile the ROM code. It is also writtenin Forth and could be modified to work with some other Forth,but with significant effort.Of coarse, if you have a Cat, you can run on it.There are a number of assemblers on the web as well.Dwight > From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: HP Series 200 (eg 9816) - is there an Assembler? > Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 19:52:50 +0000 > > > Hi, > > I've recently obtained a Series 200 machine, and have also just started to try out the excellent HP98x6 emulator: > > https://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 > > There are many disks for this machine at the HP Computer Museum: > > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 > > but I can't see any reference for a suitable Assembler (for 68000). This would be a really useful piece of software, does anyone know of such a beast please? > > Regards, > John > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 17 15:47:50 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:47:50 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 Message-ID: Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the living room?wife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to "play" some with it. Now back to work. TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 17 16:26:13 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 17:26:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If I would try to find the putc call myself, is the most used calling > convention on the VAX putting the character on the stack or should I > put it in R0 or something? Most used? That would probably be a CALLS/CALLG call, in which case the arguments are in memory, on the stack for CALLS but potentially anywhere for CALLG. But, what little looking at the code I've done gives me the impression it uses jsb/rsb style calls a lot more than many things do, in which case the argument could be pretty much anywhere. For example, from isa300-rom... 12b4: .byte 21 12b5: .ascii "\n\n\r%VAXELN system initializing\n\n\r" 1e29: movab 0x12b4,r1 1e2e: bsbw 0x3b07 ...the code at 3b07 takes its argument in r1: 3b07: movzbl (r1)+,-(sp) 3b0a: beql 0x3b23 3b0c: brb 0x3b19 3b0e: movzwl (r1)+,-(sp) 3b11: beql 0x3b23 3b13: brb 0x3b19 3b15: movzbl $ff,-(sp) 3b19: movzbl (r1)+,r0 3b1c: beql 0x3b23 3b1e: bsbb 0x3ab7 3b20: sobgtr (sp),0x3b19 3b23: tstl (sp)+ 3b25: rsb Unfortunately, while this particular piece of code is clearly a string print routine, it's not much help, because the code at 3ab7 ends up calling through a run-time-set pointer: 3ab7: tstl (sp) 3ab9: blss 0x3ac6 3abb: pushl r0 3abd: pushl $3 3abf: calls $2,*04c8(r8) (there's more, of course, but it's not much more helpful). So the answer is a definite "maybe". :( /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From molists at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 16:29:25 2012 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:29:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: RSTS/E 9-track tapes, BP2, XXDP Message-ID: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have uncovered a box of old 9-track reels, free for postage - they're heavy. I don't know if they're readable, they were kept indoors in Los Angeles. BSC+2 V2.5 RSTS/E 16MT9 (7") BSC+2 V2.7 RSTS/E BIN RSTS/E V9.7 INSTALL RSTS/E V9.6 INSTALL RSTS/E V9 LIBRARY RSTS/E V10.0 INSTALL CIDDCEO XXDP+ DDC REMOTE DIAGNOSTICS There is also a tape for EG&H Sort utility, but I suspect they're still in business, so that won't be available unless copyright/licensing is clarified. Let me know if you want them.?? If more than one party wants them, whomever is able to copy/upload them will get first dibs. Mo From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 17 16:57:06 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:57:06 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E 9-track tapes, BP2, XXDP In-Reply-To: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo at web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mo writes: > There is also a tape for EG&H Sort utility, but I suspect they're still in > business, so that won't be available unless copyright/licensing is > clarified. if anyone wants to ask. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 17 17:53:08 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 17:53:08 -0600 Subject: RSTS/E 9-track tapes, BP2, XXDP In-Reply-To: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50CFB064.9060004@charter.net> I would be interested, and I have a 9 track drive, and would provide images to Al Kossow. I have found that tapes kept indoors do pretty well. Just mark them "Do Not X-RAY, Old Magnetic Tapes" in at least two spots. Of course, if Al wants them, I would certainly bow to the Computer History Museum. (Your tapes seem to dovetail nicely into missing spots in bitsavers.org/bits/dec/pdp11 . JRJ On 12/17/2012 4:29 PM, Mo wrote: > I have uncovered a box of old 9-track reels, free for postage - they're heavy. > I don't know if they're readable, they were kept indoors in Los Angeles. > > > BSC+2 V2.5 RSTS/E 16MT9 (7") > BSC+2 V2.7 RSTS/E BIN > > RSTS/E V9.7 INSTALL > RSTS/E V9.6 INSTALL > RSTS/E V9 LIBRARY > > RSTS/E V10.0 INSTALL > > CIDDCEO XXDP+ DDC REMOTE DIAGNOSTICS > > There is also a tape for EG&H Sort utility, but I suspect they're still in business, so that won't be available unless copyright/licensing is clarified. > > Let me know if you want them. If more than one party wants them, whomever is able to copy/upload them will get first dibs. > > Mo > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 21:11:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:11:35 -0500 Subject: Looking for 2N1516 Message-ID: <79CDD067-F44F-4DF9-A934-AC9C07898E04@neurotica.com> ...germanium PNP BJT. Does anyone have a couple that they can part with? I'm working on a Tek 661. Looks like I need two. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 17 21:25:38 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 19:25:38 -0800 Subject: RSTS/E 9-track tapes, BP2, XXDP In-Reply-To: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1355783365.31585.YahooMailNeo@web122102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50CFE232.80906@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/12 2:29 PM, Mo wrote: > I have uncovered a box of old 9-track reels, free for postage - they're heavy. > I don't know if they're readable, they were kept indoors in Los Angeles. > the person to contact is John A. Dundas, the keeper of all things RSTS. and he's in the LA area. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Dec 18 01:20:02 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:20:02 +0000 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/17/12 1:47 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: >Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was >delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it >and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be >working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I >get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the >living room?wife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to >"play" some with it. Now back to work. > >TTFN - Guy > > Please let me be the first to express my envy. :-) Very cool! From lee_courtney at acm.org Sun Dec 16 10:46:36 2012 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Computer History Museum Videos In-Reply-To: References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've posted some older Computer History Museum docent training videos from when the museum was located at Moffett Field before moving into the current building in Mountain View. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdktCQqnpQ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy_FNzRhlYI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CD5g711vQ ? Lafarr Stuart on Lehmer Sieve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967BCgwKVSw ?John Greene on Seymour Cray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br6NRrUDUTE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbIjwLqLEz0 Enjoy! ? Lee Courtney From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Mon Dec 17 01:12:21 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:12:21 +1100 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 14/12/2012, at 8:17 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Just letting the group know that I've posted another video showcasing one > of the models in my collection. This time it's the venerable Osborne 1 > http://youtu.be/DsseQPkT_Bg Nice video - brings back lots of memories - I still have mine but haven't used it in years. IIRC I paid AU$2495 for mine in about 1982 or 1983 exactly because I wanted a computer to do things rather than a toy. Mainly word processing (thesis writing) and as a terminal using kermit back to the DECsystem-10 and VAX-11/780 I did my real programming in. I had an external monitor which certainly did 80x24 - I think there was a program you ran to switch up the resolution. If this is the case, I can probably get a copy to you, assuming after all these years it starts up! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From steve.hunt at iname.com Mon Dec 17 03:20:15 2012 From: steve.hunt at iname.com (Steve Hunt) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 04:20:15 -0500 Subject: NE555 story on ED Message-ID: <20121217092015.220440@gmx.com> >> "Damn! Someday, we gotta bild a circuit to do better key debouncing!" > Sorry > I do know how to spell "build", but this keyboard, . . . Yes, we know, it needs better key debouncing. ;-) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 17 18:19:04 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:19:04 -0800 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> On 12/17/2012 2:26 PM, Mouse wrote: > it's not much help, because the code at 3ab7 ends up > calling through a run-time-set pointer: I am totally unprepared to help, but when we had problems like this we had to code up small runtime routines to scan the memory space for what were JMP and JMP indirect instructions in our Microdata 1621 object code to find out who was connected to what. Maybe if holme had such a routine he could run it and find the runtime setup ones. Or maybe if one is lucky, the code you have at 0x04c8 is a table and could just be dumped to continue the hunt. Also hopefully there are not more layers between the printf and the output routines. At least once you find the output side and the registers, you can then possibly scan for the register references if you are lucky and find the input character or string code. Did this version of uart possibly have buffering and DMA, or was it interrupt char / char most likely. Impossibly to know w/o finding it of course. Now days most serial devices I find even for consoles have DMA and buffering that makes the deciphering and subsequent coding of quite difficult. Happily I've not had to do so, and the code is open and quite available now days. Jim From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 02:20:47 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:20:47 +0100 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Huw Davies wrote: > > I had an external monitor which certainly did 80x24 - I think there was a program you ran to switch up the resolution. If this is the case, I can probably get a copy to you, assuming after all these years it starts up! IIRC, that resolution required an add-on board that piggybacked onto some chips on the main board. The higher reolution also works with the built-in monitor, although that makes it a little hard to read. Without the additional board, I don't think the Osborne-1 supports 80 columns. Camiel. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 18 03:12:34 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:12:34 +1300 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: References: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: >On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Huw Davies wrote: >> >> I had an external monitor which certainly did 80x24 - I think there was a program you ran to switch up the resolution. If this is the case, I can probably get a copy to you, assuming after all these years it starts up! > > IIRC, that resolution required an add-on board that piggybacked onto > some chips on the main board. The higher reolution also works with the > built-in monitor, although that makes it a little hard to read. > Without the additional board, I don't think the Osborne-1 supports 80 > columns. > > Camiel. Oh well, thanks for the thought anyway Huw. Glad you enjoyed the video. Now working on one for the Dick Smith System 80. Terry From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 18 04:06:19 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 05:06:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> References: <20121215192419.GD45629@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216114211.GA72079@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [W]hen we had problems like this we had to code up small runtime > routines to scan the memory space for what were JMP and JMP indirect > instructions in our Microdata 1621 object code to find out who was > connected to what. > Maybe if holme had such a routine he could run it and find the > runtime setup ones. Or throw grep at the text version of the disassaembly. My disassembler was originally written specifically to pick apart a captured malware binary, and it is most usable for jobs similar to that. It's not "this is the only tool you'll need", but in my experience it is a major help with such things - I used it for a Y2K consulting gig back when Y2K was an issue (someone had an x86 binary whose vendor no longer existed and found it had bugs). > Or maybe if one is lucky, the code you have at 0x04c8 is a table and > could just be dumped to continue the hunt. Looking at what's at 4c8, I think more likely r8 is a pointer to some kind of large state struct, with 4c8 an offset within that struct. I probably will not have the leisure to look at this all that much more anytime soon. There is a version of my disassembler up for anonymous FTP (probably at least a little out of date) and the current source is available for git clone; anyone who cares to is welcome to fetch it and take over. I really should update the FTPable copy.... ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/disas/src/ is the FTPable copy; the git repo is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 18 05:12:21 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 12:12:21 +0100 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 References: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <8328F13E74CE4744B8628F49A49B3881@udvikling> Hallo Camiel Kon je de Philips kaart gebruiken? /Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Huw Davies > wrote: >> >> I had an external monitor which certainly did 80x24 - I think there was a >> program you ran to switch up the resolution. If this is the case, I can >> probably get a copy to you, assuming after all these years it starts up! > > IIRC, that resolution required an add-on board that piggybacked onto > some chips on the main board. The higher reolution also works with the > built-in monitor, although that makes it a little hard to read. > Without the additional board, I don't think the Osborne-1 supports 80 > columns. > > Camiel. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 770 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 18 09:33:30 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:33:30 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:20 AM +0000 12/18/12, Ian King wrote: >On 12/17/12 1:47 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > > >Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was >>delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it >>and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be >>working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I >>get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the >>living roomSwife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to >>"play" some with it. Now back to work. >> >>TTFN - Guy >> >> > >Please let me be the first to express my envy. :-) Very cool! And please let me be the first to express my condolences to your wife! :-) It is cool though! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 10:17:23 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:17:23 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B62E181-564A-4BAC-A0BC-C0177692B193@shiresoft.com> On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:33 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:20 AM +0000 12/18/12, Ian King wrote: >> On 12/17/12 1:47 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: >> >>> Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was >>> delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it >>> and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be >>> working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I >>> get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the >>> living roomSwife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to >>> "play" some with it. Now back to work. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >> >> Please let me be the first to express my envy. :-) Very cool! > > And please let me be the first to express my condolences to your > wife! :-) It is cool though! :-) She's cool with it (it's the size of a large desk side PC) as opposed to some of my other stuff. I just have to get it out of the living room PDQ. ;-) TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 10:21:44 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:21:44 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Ian King wrote: > On 12/17/12 1:47 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > >> Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was >> delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it >> and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be >> working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I >> get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the >> living room?wife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to >> "play" some with it. Now back to work. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> > > Please let me be the first to express my envy. :-) Very cool! Always thought they were cool. Had an incomplete 3650 a few years ago that I gave away (didn't have time/space or information on where to get parts?do now). First thing to do (well after it gets moved out of the living room) is to get it configured and up on my home network. I want to net boot it (just in case the disks fail) and save everything onto my server. I also found out that it has pretty much all of the SW that Symbolics produced for it (just have to figure out where it all is). TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 18 11:54:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:54:23 -0800 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <50D0ADCF.8070107@sydex.com> My first contact with the O1 was being shown into an office at Sorcim in Santa Clara, where Richard Frank showed me a bunch of stuff strewn across a tabletop, connected by wires. While I wasn't impressed by yet another Z80 box (they seemed to be growing out of the sidewalk cracks with every rain), I commented on the very small monitor and said that the thing would never fly because of the damned characters were almost invisible. Sorcim was working on the CBIOS for the thing. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 18 12:00:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 13:00:37 -0500 Subject: Spotlight on the Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <50D0ADCF.8070107@sydex.com> References: <24C70BFE-38F2-4CDD-A453-48066BF3952A@kerberos.davies.net.au> <50D0ADCF.8070107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D0AF45.10308@neurotica.com> On 12/18/2012 12:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My first contact with the O1 was being shown into an office at Sorcim in > Santa Clara, where Richard Frank showed me a bunch of stuff strewn > across a tabletop, connected by wires. While I wasn't impressed by > yet another Z80 box (they seemed to be growing out of the sidewalk > cracks with every rain), I commented on the very small monitor and said > that the thing would never fly because of the damned characters were > almost invisible. > > Sorcim was working on the CBIOS for the thing. So you've proven that size really doesn't matter? ;) [dave runs for cover] -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From vansloot at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 10:18:01 2012 From: vansloot at gmail.com (Hans Van Slooten) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:18:01 -0600 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's another one available on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symbolics-3620-Lisp-Computer-/110991206525?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item19d797687d On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:20 AM +0000 12/18/12, Ian King wrote: > >> On 12/17/12 1:47 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: >> >> >Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was >> >>> delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it >>> and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be >>> working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I >>> get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the >>> living roomSwife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to >>> "play" some with it. Now back to work. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >>> >> Please let me be the first to express my envy. :-) Very cool! >> > > And please let me be the first to express my condolences to your wife! :-) > It is cool though! :-) > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.**com | > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 12:35:29 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 13:35:29 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 112, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Rob Doyle > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:56:24 -0700 > Subject: Re: DEC KS-10 FPGA > On 10/3/2012 6:57 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > > The KS10 FPGA is starting to come together. The KS10 CPU proper is > very close to complete. It passes all of the basic instruction > diagnostics and the diagnostic monitor boots and prints the prompt. > > I'm starting to implement the Unibus-based IO. > > I know absolutely nothing about Massbus or the disk systems that were > common on the KS10. I would like to choose one disk drive type that the > KS10 supported to implement/emulate. I'm not sure which one would be > the 'best'. I'd appreciate suggestions. > > Rob Doyle > doyle (at) cox (dot) net The RM03 is too small to hold all of the source and do any development. The RP06 works very nicely. I don't think that the KS10 will boot from an RP07. The KS10 will boot ITS from an RM80. I am not sure how well supported it is with TOPS-10 or TOPS-20. I would recommend the RP06 for a disk and a TU45 or TU77 for a tape. -- Michael Thompson From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 13:27:46 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:27:46 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> On 12/18/2012 8:21 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Always thought they were cool. Had an incomplete 3650 a few years > ago that I gave away (didn't have time/space or information on where to > get parts?do now). > > First thing to do (well after it gets moved out of the living room) is to get it configured > and up on my home network. I want to net boot it (just in case the disks fail) and > save everything onto my server. Is it actually possible to netboot from something other than another 'bolix machine? I know there are a couple of experimental Chaosnet implementations out there but I've never played with one of these. (Also, I was under the impression that netbooting still required a local disk to store the FEP files & netboot world). At any rate let me also congratulate you on the acquisition of a fine machine. I have a 3630 and it's a seriously impressive hardware + software combination. - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 13:31:24 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:31:24 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE1DF87-56BC-44B3-8765-A2C9A9AC030D@shiresoft.com> On Dec 18, 2012, at 8:18 AM, Hans Van Slooten wrote: > There's another one available on eBay: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symbolics-3620-Lisp-Computer-/110991206525?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item19d797687d Yep, saw that one. Tempting to get (for potential spares) but I've already spent my (self imposed) budget on classic toys. ;-) TTFN - Guy > > > > On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 7:20 AM +0000 12/18/12, Ian King wrote: >> >>> On 12/17/12 1:47 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: >>> >>>> Just to let everyone know that my Symbolics 3620 just arrived. It was >>> >>>> delivered by FedEx in two large boxes totaling 160 lbs. I've unpacked it >>>> and powered it up just enough to verify that everything seems to be >>>> working. I'll post pictures and more information about it as soon as I >>>> get a chance to put it in a more permanent place (right now it's in the >>>> living roomSwife won't let it stay there long) and I have a chance to >>>> "play" some with it. Now back to work. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Please let me be the first to express my envy. :-) Very cool! >>> >> >> And please let me be the first to express my condolences to your wife! :-) >> It is cool though! :-) >> >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Photographer | >> +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | >> | My Photography Website | >> | http://www.zanesphotography.**com | >> >> From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 14:00:36 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 18:00:36 -0200 Subject: Symbolics 3620 References: <4AE1DF87-56BC-44B3-8765-A2C9A9AC030D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <734CD5A4F17C42AD8571AA628D411C7E@tababook> > Yep, saw that one. Tempting to get (for potential spares) but I've > already spent my > (self imposed) budget on classic toys. ;-) Time to mortgage some toys? :) From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 14:25:09 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 12:25:09 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/18/2012 8:21 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Always thought they were cool. Had an incomplete 3650 a few years >> ago that I gave away (didn't have time/space or information on where to >> get parts?do now). >> >> First thing to do (well after it gets moved out of the living room) is to get it configured >> and up on my home network. I want to net boot it (just in case the disks fail) and >> save everything onto my server. > > Is it actually possible to netboot from something other than another 'bolix machine? I know there are a couple of experimental Chaosnet implementations out there but I've never played with one of these. (Also, I was under the impression that netbooting still required a local disk to store the FEP files & netboot world). I'm not sure. Right now, I'm trying to familiarize myself with it. That could be true. My biggest thing right now is to get the "site" configuration done and get this on my home network. Anyone have a simple "cookbook" set of instructions to get started with? Right now I'm trying to figure out how to dig out the ethernet MAC address so I can add it to my DHCP configuration. > > At any rate let me also congratulate you on the acquisition of a fine machine. I have a 3630 and it's a seriously impressive hardware + software combination. Yes, it's seriously cool. TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 15:10:33 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 13:10:33 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> On 12/18/2012 12:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Is it actually possible to netboot from something other than another 'bolix machine? I know there are a couple of experimental Chaosnet implementations out there but I've never played with one of these. (Also, I was under the impression that netbooting still required a local disk to store the FEP files & netboot world). > I'm not sure. Right now, I'm trying to familiarize myself with it. That could be true. > > My biggest thing right now is to get the "site" configuration done and get this on my home network. > Anyone have a simple "cookbook" set of instructions to get started with? Right now I'm trying to figure > out how to dig out the ethernet MAC address so I can add it to my DHCP configuration. > I can point you in the right direction. This is all from memory (it's been awhile since I've done this) so this may not be 100% accurate but it should get you started. I'm not sure how to get the MAC address (I've always just looked at my router's recently-used MAC list and worked it out from there) but I'm sure someone else here can help out... One thing to keep in mind is that the Document Examiner (Select-D) is your best friend. All the documentation is available there and it's pretty easy to search (use the "Select Candidates" command). 1) Make sure you have the IP/TCP System loaded into your Genera World if it hasn't already been. The documentation is available in the Document Examiner, you might also read through http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/symbolics/software/genera_8/Symbolics_IPTCP_Software_Package.pdf. I'm making the assumption that the actual software is already present on the disk (if not it may be a bit more difficult). Loading the IP/TCP system can be accomplished from a Lisp Listener with the command "Load System Ip-tcp" and after this you can invoke (tcp:initialize-internet-namespace) to set up the basic INTERNET namespace in your Site's namespace. At this point you will want to save the world (who doesn't?) using the "Save World" command. Alternately, you might want to load the NFS client and server Systems before doing this, just to get those taken care of as well. "Save World" takes the running Lisp image (including the systems you've just loaded) and writes it out to a World file on your FEP partition. This can be done Incrementally (in which case the new World file is sort of a diff of the current World) or you can save the entire world in a new file; the latter takes a lot more disk space. "Save World" will prompt you whether to update the FEP boot files automatically -- do so. At this point log out, halt the machine, and reboot. 2) Add Namespace objects for IP/TCP hosts on your network. This is also covered in the aforementioned documentation, but in a nutshell, use the command "Create Namespace Object /." This will invoke the Namespace Editor which you can use to define attributes of the other machines on your network (address, protocols they support, OS type, etc.) You'll probably want to define the machine-type as "UNIX42" for anything that's not another symbolics machine (unless you happen to have some TOPS-20 machines on your network :)). You can describe what services the machine supports (FTP, NFS, Telnet, etc). NFS configuration is a whole different can of worms and can (in my experience) be a bit annoying, mostly around authentication. I usually give up and allow anonymous access from my Symbolics machines :). When you're done with a new Host entry, be sure to save it by clicking on the "Save Object" command. The really cool thing about Genera's namespace system is that once you have your hosts properly defined, file transfers (and other connectivity) are done transparently from the user's perspective. That is, if you had a host that exposed only FTP, and another host that exposed only NFS, the command to copy a file from both of those hosts is identical (Copy File UNIXHOST:/foo/bar/baz/thing.tar ...) and Genera works out the transport to use underneath the covers. That should be enough to get your machine on the network and talking to other machines. - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 15:22:58 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 13:22:58 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> On Dec 18, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/18/2012 12:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Is it actually possible to netboot from something other than another 'bolix machine? I know there are a couple of experimental Chaosnet implementations out there but I've never played with one of these. (Also, I was under the impression that netbooting still required a local disk to store the FEP files & netboot world). >> I'm not sure. Right now, I'm trying to familiarize myself with it. That could be true. >> >> My biggest thing right now is to get the "site" configuration done and get this on my home network. >> Anyone have a simple "cookbook" set of instructions to get started with? Right now I'm trying to figure >> out how to dig out the ethernet MAC address so I can add it to my DHCP configuration. >> > > I can point you in the right direction. This is all from memory (it's been awhile since I've done this) so this may not be 100% accurate but it should get you started. I'm not sure how to get the MAC address (I've always just looked at my router's recently-used MAC list and worked it out from there) but I'm sure someone else here can help out? I was figuring that I could do that. Just wanted to see if there was a way to get at it directly from the Symbolics. > > One thing to keep in mind is that the Document Examiner (Select-D) is your best friend. All the documentation is available there and it's pretty easy to search (use the "Select Candidates" command). Yep. Been using that?just reading at this point (and I have all of the Genera 8 docs from Bitsavers). As far as I know I have all of the software packages that Symbolics produced loaded up on the machine (how do I tell what's there BTW?). > > 1) Make sure you have the IP/TCP System loaded into your Genera World if it hasn't already been. The documentation is available in the Document Examiner, you might also read through http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/symbolics/software/genera_8/Symbolics_IPTCP_Software_Package.pdf. > > I'm making the assumption that the actual software is already present on the disk (if not it may be a bit more difficult). Loading the IP/TCP system can be accomplished from a Lisp Listener with the command "Load System Ip-tcp" and after this you can invoke (tcp:initialize-internet-namespace) to set up the basic INTERNET namespace in your Site's namespace. > > At this point you will want to save the world (who doesn't?) using the "Save World" command. Alternately, you might want to load the NFS client and server Systems before doing this, just to get those taken care of as well. "Save World" takes the running Lisp image (including the systems you've just loaded) and writes it out to a World file on your FEP partition. This can be done Incrementally (in which case the new World file is sort of a diff of the current World) or you can save the entire world in a new file; the latter takes a lot more disk space. > > "Save World" will prompt you whether to update the FEP boot files automatically -- do so. At this point log out, halt the machine, and reboot. > > 2) Add Namespace objects for IP/TCP hosts on your network. This is also covered in the aforementioned documentation, but in a nutshell, use the command "Create Namespace Object /." This will invoke the Namespace Editor which you can use to define attributes of the other machines on your network (address, protocols they support, OS type, etc.) You'll probably want to define the machine-type as "UNIX42" for anything that's not another symbolics machine (unless you happen to have some TOPS-20 machines on your network :)). You can describe what services the machine supports (FTP, NFS, Telnet, etc). NFS configuration is a whole different can of worms and can (in my experience) be a bit annoying, mostly around authentication. I usually give up and allow anonymous access from my Symbolics machines :). > > When you're done with a new Host entry, be sure to save it by clicking on the "Save Object" command. > > The really cool thing about Genera's namespace system is that once you have your hosts properly defined, file transfers (and other connectivity) are done transparently from the user's perspective. That is, if you had a host that exposed only FTP, and another host that exposed only NFS, the command to copy a file from both of those hosts is identical (Copy File UNIXHOST:/foo/bar/baz/thing.tar ...) and Genera works out the transport to use underneath the covers. > > That should be enough to get your machine on the network and talking to other machines. OK. I'll start with that. Absolutely no site configuration has been done on this system (it keeps telling me that when I boot up). So I suspect that's something I need to do sooner rather than later. ;-) Thanks. TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 15:51:10 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 13:51:10 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50D0E54E.90604@gmail.com> On 12/18/2012 1:22 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 18, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 12/18/2012 12:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Is it actually possible to netboot from something other than another 'bolix machine? I know there are a couple of experimental Chaosnet implementations out there but I've never played with one of these. (Also, I was under the impression that netbooting still required a local disk to store the FEP files & netboot world). >>> I'm not sure. Right now, I'm trying to familiarize myself with it. That could be true. >>> >>> My biggest thing right now is to get the "site" configuration done and get this on my home network. >>> Anyone have a simple "cookbook" set of instructions to get started with? Right now I'm trying to figure >>> out how to dig out the ethernet MAC address so I can add it to my DHCP configuration. >>> >> I can point you in the right direction. This is all from memory (it's been awhile since I've done this) so this may not be 100% accurate but it should get you started. I'm not sure how to get the MAC address (I've always just looked at my router's recently-used MAC list and worked it out from there) but I'm sure someone else here can help out? > I was figuring that I could do that. Just wanted to see if there was a way to get at it directly from the Symbolics. I'm sure there is, I just have no idea what it is. > >> One thing to keep in mind is that the Document Examiner (Select-D) is your best friend. All the documentation is available there and it's pretty easy to search (use the "Select Candidates" command). > Yep. Been using that?just reading at this point (and I have all of the Genera 8 docs from Bitsavers). > > As far as I know I have all of the software packages that Symbolics produced loaded up on the machine (how do I tell what's there BTW?). I believe the command is "Show Systems" but I may be mistaken and I don't have a machine nearby to verify (it'll definitely start with "Show" -- just type "Show" and hit "Complete" to show all the possibilities, choose the one that looks like what you want ;) ). "Show Loaded Systems" will show what's currently loaded (as will the herald that displays in the Lisp Listener at startup). > >> 1) Make sure you have the IP/TCP System loaded into your Genera World if it hasn't already been. The documentation is available in the Document Examiner, you might also read through http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/symbolics/software/genera_8/Symbolics_IPTCP_Software_Package.pdf. >> >> I'm making the assumption that the actual software is already present on the disk (if not it may be a bit more difficult). Loading the IP/TCP system can be accomplished from a Lisp Listener with the command "Load System Ip-tcp" and after this you can invoke (tcp:initialize-internet-namespace) to set up the basic INTERNET namespace in your Site's namespace. >> >> At this point you will want to save the world (who doesn't?) using the "Save World" command. Alternately, you might want to load the NFS client and server Systems before doing this, just to get those taken care of as well. "Save World" takes the running Lisp image (including the systems you've just loaded) and writes it out to a World file on your FEP partition. This can be done Incrementally (in which case the new World file is sort of a diff of the current World) or you can save the entire world in a new file; the latter takes a lot more disk space. >> >> "Save World" will prompt you whether to update the FEP boot files automatically -- do so. At this point log out, halt the machine, and reboot. >> >> 2) Add Namespace objects for IP/TCP hosts on your network. This is also covered in the aforementioned documentation, but in a nutshell, use the command "Create Namespace Object /." This will invoke the Namespace Editor which you can use to define attributes of the other machines on your network (address, protocols they support, OS type, etc.) You'll probably want to define the machine-type as "UNIX42" for anything that's not another symbolics machine (unless you happen to have some TOPS-20 machines on your network :)). You can describe what services the machine supports (FTP, NFS, Telnet, etc). NFS configuration is a whole different can of worms and can (in my experience) be a bit annoying, mostly around authentication. I usually give up and allow anonymous access from my Symbolics machines :). >> >> When you're done with a new Host entry, be sure to save it by clicking on the "Save Object" command. >> >> The really cool thing about Genera's namespace system is that once you have your hosts properly defined, file transfers (and other connectivity) are done transparently from the user's perspective. That is, if you had a host that exposed only FTP, and another host that exposed only NFS, the command to copy a file from both of those hosts is identical (Copy File UNIXHOST:/foo/bar/baz/thing.tar ...) and Genera works out the transport to use underneath the covers. >> >> That should be enough to get your machine on the network and talking to other machines. > OK. I'll start with that. Absolutely no site configuration has been done on this system (it keeps telling me that when I boot up). So I suspect that's something > I need to do sooner rather than later. ;-) Ah, in that case, read up on the "Define Site" command. - Josh > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 18 16:09:33 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:09:33 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <50D0E54E.90604@gmail.com> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> <50D0E54E.90604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50D0E99D.7050108@jwsss.com> On 12/18/2012 1:51 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Ah, in that case, read up on the "Define Site" command. > > - Josh I don't know what is possible, but would it not be desirable to back up the system contents in such a way as to be restorable later from the least configured state, if you will? It almost sounds like someone wiped and installed a fresh install, and if there are no install media or method available backing up the system asap w/o stepping on it might be the first step. I'm not sure how important that is given there is still support of some sort available for the machine. And I don't know that backing it up is useful if you can't restore it onto the system easily. If the only way to back it up is via network then it may be necessary to initialize things anyway. jim From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 18 16:20:33 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:20:33 +0100 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender Message-ID: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those tend to be rather pricey. - MG From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 16:23:20 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:23:20 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <50D0E99D.7050108@jwsss.com> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> <50D0E54E.90604@gmail.com> <50D0E99D.7050108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50D0ECD8.2070609@gmail.com> On 12/18/2012 2:09 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 12/18/2012 1:51 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> Ah, in that case, read up on the "Define Site" command. >> >> - Josh > I don't know what is possible, but would it not be desirable to back > up the system contents in such a way as to be restorable later from > the least configured state, if you will? It almost sounds like > someone wiped and installed a fresh install, and if there are no > install media or method available backing up the system asap w/o > stepping on it might be the first step. > > I'm not sure how important that is given there is still support of > some sort available for the machine. > > And I don't know that backing it up is useful if you can't restore it > onto the system easily. > > If the only way to back it up is via network then it may be necessary > to initialize things anyway. > > jim > The good thing here is that, assuming you don't overwrite the original World distribution files via "Save World" (probably not a good idea) you can get back to a clean state fairly easily, you just need to clean up some of the namespace files in the LMFS. The bad news is, for the 3600 series there really isn't a way for an end-user to do a complete restore of a system (i.e. if the system disk fails and needs to be replaced) since Symbolics never released the tools to do that to the general public. If you need your disk replaced, you talk to David Schmidt. For the XL series this is a bit easier (still difficult). The MacIvory systems are by far the easiest to deal with in this regard. - Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 18 16:25:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:25:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <50D0E99D.7050108@jwsss.com> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> <50D0E54E.90604@gmail.com> <50D0E99D.7050108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201212182225.RAA01185@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I don't know what is possible, but would it not be desirable to back > up the system [first]? [...] > And I don't know that backing it up is useful if you can't restore it > onto the system easily. > If the only way to back it up is via network then it may be necessary > to initialize things anyway. If it uses a conventional disk, then I'd say the best way to back it up might be to pull the disk and raw-image it. That also makes for easy restores...at least, assuming you're trying to do a full restore. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 16:42:04 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:42:04 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: <201212182225.RAA01185@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> <50D0DBC9.2010006@gmail.com> <66A52B02-27FB-4741-BEDD-74622F153601@shiresoft.com> <50D0E54E.90604@gmail.com> <50D0E99D.7050108@jwsss.com> <201212182225.RAA01185@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50D0F13C.1070300@gmail.com> On 12/18/2012 2:25 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I don't know what is possible, but would it not be desirable to back >> up the system [first]? [...] >> And I don't know that backing it up is useful if you can't restore it >> onto the system easily. >> If the only way to back it up is via network then it may be necessary >> to initialize things anyway. > If it uses a conventional disk, then I'd say the best way to back it up > might be to pull the disk and raw-image it. That also makes for easy > restores...at least, assuming you're trying to do a full restore. The major hurdle here is that it uses ESDI disks, formatted with an odd sector size (IIRC, it's 1280 bytes/sector). This doesn't mean it's impossible, but all the OSes I've tried seem to have trouble dealing with sector sizes other than 512 bytes. (The other hurdle is dealing with the bad sector map when writing a previously captured image to a new disk...) - Josh > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 17:40:55 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:40:55 -0800 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2012, at 2:20 PM, MG wrote: > Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence > of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those > tend to be rather pricey. I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). Competes with FibreChannel. TTFN - Guy From jon at jonworld.com Tue Dec 18 17:46:05 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 18:46:05 -0500 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2012, at 6:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 18, 2012, at 2:20 PM, MG wrote: >> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). Competes with FibreChannel. iSCSI is actually over ethernet and done at the OS layer. You need an OS to support it and any storage from a host/sever system (even SATA, etc) can be served as an iSCSI LUN. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 18 17:55:05 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 15:55:05 -0800 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <77CFB287-9E8F-4ADC-A52B-AD149F9DC7FA@shiresoft.com> On Dec 18, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Dec 18, 2012, at 6:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Dec 18, 2012, at 2:20 PM, MG wrote: >>> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >>> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware >> I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). Competes with FibreChannel. > > iSCSI is actually over ethernet and done at the OS layer. You need an OS to support it and any storage from a host/sever system (even SATA, etc) can be served as an iSCSI LUN. iSCSI is a protocol, so it doesn't require OS support (depends upon the network card?dumb ones need OS/driver support, smart iSCSI capable cards show up as you'd expect). TTFN - Guy From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 18 17:59:21 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 00:59:21 +0100 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50D10359.2090203@xs4all.nl> On 19-dec-2012 0:40, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). Competes with FibreChannel. > > TTFN - Guy That's naturally not what I'm looking for, I'm merely trying to find a way to extend regular SCSI. - MG From rwiker at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 15:07:46 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:07:46 +0100 Subject: Symbolics 3620 In-Reply-To: References: <50D0C3B2.4060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3FCA64EB-46F6-462C-B610-F9C932EB019A@gmail.com> On Dec 18, 2012, at 21:25 , Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 12/18/2012 8:21 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> Always thought they were cool. Had an incomplete 3650 a few years >>> ago that I gave away (didn't have time/space or information on where to >>> get parts?do now). >>> >>> First thing to do (well after it gets moved out of the living room) is to get it configured >>> and up on my home network. I want to net boot it (just in case the disks fail) and >>> save everything onto my server. >> >> Is it actually possible to netboot from something other than another 'bolix machine? I know there are a couple of experimental Chaosnet implementations out there but I've never played with one of these. (Also, I was under the impression that netbooting still required a local disk to store the FEP files & netboot world). > > I'm not sure. Right now, I'm trying to familiarize myself with it. That could be true. > > My biggest thing right now is to get the "site" configuration done and get this on my home network. > Anyone have a simple "cookbook" set of instructions to get started with? Right now I'm trying to figure > out how to dig out the ethernet MAC address so I can add it to my DHCP configuration. You may find some useful hints at http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html ? part of the section named "Installing a LISP Machine" may be relevant for the 3620 as well as the MacIvory that it was written for. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 19:36:22 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:36:22 -0600 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 4:20 PM, MG wrote: > Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence > of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those > tend to be rather pricey. If you mean actually electrically extending SCSI, I haven't seen such a thing. I guess my first question would be: how many wires, out of the 50 or more pins present on its connectors, does SCSI use? If it's more than the eight in an RJ45-ended cable, then I don't see how it would work. -- jht From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 18 19:38:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:38:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201212190138.UAA02043@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >>> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? >> I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). That was my own reaction too - "this sounds like iSCSI". > iSCSI is actually over ethernet It is? I thought it was over IP (which may or may not be, in turn, carried over Ethernet). Its wikipedia page thinks so, FWTMBW. > and done at the OS layer. Usually but not necessarily. There's no reason something couldn't be built which looks like an ordinary SCSI card to the host but speaks iSCSI out its other side; indeed, I'd be surprised if nothing of the sort existed yet, though configuration may be a bit interesting. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 18 19:44:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:44:34 -0500 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50D11C02.8080306@neurotica.com> On 12/18/2012 08:36 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware >> that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those >> tend to be rather pricey. > > If you mean actually electrically extending SCSI, I haven't seen such > a thing. I guess my first question would be: how many wires, out of > the 50 or more pins present on its connectors, does SCSI use? If it's > more than the eight in an RJ45-ended cable, then I don't see how it > would work. That's not an osbstacle...it would serialize the data and likely run it with LVDS. Look how few lines a PCI-Express card has. (per lane) That's what's done there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 18 19:46:36 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:46:36 -0800 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D10359.2090203@xs4all.nl> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> <50D10359.2090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: At 12:59 AM +0100 12/19/12, MG wrote: >On 19-dec-2012 0:40, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). Competes with FibreChannel. >> >>TTFN - Guy > >That's naturally not what I'm looking for, I'm merely trying to >find a way to extend regular SCSI. > > - MG So HVD-SCSI? 50-pin and 68-pin SE-SCSI to HVD-SCSI used to exist. I'm not sure if you could use them to convert LVD drives or not. Then there is the problem of finding an HVD SCSI adapter. The max length we had was somewhere around 75 feet, cables like that aren't easy to find either... We used HVD for tape libraries a long time ago. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ryan at hack.net Tue Dec 18 19:51:19 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:51:19 -0600 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <201212190138.UAA02043@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> <201212190138.UAA02043@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <949D2FF9-7090-4460-929B-FC589CC496DF@hack.net> On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >>>> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? >>> I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). > > That was my own reaction too - "this sounds like iSCSI". > >> iSCSI is actually over ethernet > TCP actually. > It is? I thought it was over IP (which may or may not be, in turn, > carried over Ethernet). Its wikipedia page thinks so, FWTMBW. > >> and done at the OS layer. > > Usually but not necessarily. There's no reason something couldn't be > built which looks like an ordinary SCSI card to the host but speaks > iSCSI out its other side; indeed, I'd be surprised if nothing of the > sort existed yet, though configuration may be a bit interesting. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 18 21:50:18 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:50:18 -0800 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <949D2FF9-7090-4460-929B-FC589CC496DF@hack.net> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> <201212190138.UAA02043@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <949D2FF9-7090-4460-929B-FC589CC496DF@hack.net> Message-ID: <50D1397A.1060501@jwsss.com> One thing I saw that is disturbing is the first picture has "degaussed 6 something 2012". Hard drives turn into bricks if you degauss them because they need a servo track recorded on one track to function. SMD drives which are the next older large drive could record with self clocked data, and later 5 1/4 drives such as the first Tulin 40mb drive had something called embedded servo which could be restored with a program. However this drive might be tricky to make go if iyou don't have a program to issue a low level format to it, besides formatting high level. Too bad they didn't just leave it. ONe has to wonder what was so hush hush on a dos 6 system with 40mb or storage. jim On 12/18/2012 5:51 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote: > On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>>>> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >>>>> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? >>>> I think it's called iSCSI (and it's a protocol). >> That was my own reaction too - "this sounds like iSCSI". >> >>> iSCSI is actually over ethernet > TCP actually. > >> It is? I thought it was over IP (which may or may not be, in turn, >> carried over Ethernet). Its wikipedia page thinks so, FWTMBW. >> >>> and done at the OS layer. >> Usually but not necessarily. There's no reason something couldn't be >> built which looks like an ordinary SCSI card to the host but speaks >> iSCSI out its other side; indeed, I'd be surprised if nothing of the >> sort existed yet, though configuration may be a bit interesting. >> >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From a50mhzham at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 22:22:43 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:22:43 -0600 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D11C02.8080306@neurotica.com> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> <50D11C02.8080306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50d1417e.0aad320a.6b92.ffffa24a@mx.google.com> At 07:44 PM 12/18/2012, you wrote: >On 12/18/2012 08:36 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence > >> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > >> that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those > >> tend to be rather pricey. > > > > If you mean actually electrically extending SCSI, I haven't seen such > > a thing. I guess my first question would be: how many wires, out of > > the 50 or more pins present on its connectors, does SCSI use? If it's > > more than the eight in an RJ45-ended cable, then I don't see how it > > would work. > > That's not an osbstacle...it would serialize the data and likely run >it with LVDS. > > Look how few lines a PCI-Express card has. (per lane) That's what's >done there. Likewise SATA. But regular SCSI has tight timing requirements. So did IDE (PATA) which is why SATA was developed. They kept running into roadblocks in the form of tighter and tighter timing trying to speed up IDE, so they did away with all that and serialized it. > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA 854 . [Government]"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session." (Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.) a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From ed.spittles at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 02:26:49 2012 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:26:49 +0000 Subject: Ikon's Hobbit tape drive, aka Ultradrive - info request Message-ID: Does anyone have technical documentation or a circuit diagram for Ikon's automatic (micro) tape cassette drive, from 1983 or so? I have these links: http://web.archive.org/web/20060924115556/http://www.mixtel.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nascgem/oem/hardware/hob/hobbit.html http://www.dragonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ultra_Drive http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/big/12412/Ikon-BBC-Hobbit-Tape-Drive/ (I remember magazine advertisements from when these were new, although I would have placed them a few years earlier) Thanks! Ed From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 19 03:52:52 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:52:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D1397A.1060501@jwsss.com> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> <201212190138.UAA02043@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <949D2FF9-7090-4460-929B-FC589CC496DF@hack.net> <50D1397A.1060501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2012, Jim Stephens wrote: [...] > Hard drives turn into bricks if you degauss them because they need a servo > track recorded on one track to function. SMD drives which are the next older > large drive could record with self clocked data, and later 5 1/4 drives such > as the first Tulin 40mb drive had something called embedded servo which could > be restored with a program. [...] Perhaps I've missed the point, but what exactly does this have to do with extending SCSI? >>>>>> Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence >>>>>> of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? As a note: I don't think it's a good idea to extend with unshielded TP. I'd rather use Cat7 (standard nowadays) or at least S/F-TP. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 19 05:31:25 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:31:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4052 Message-ID: Hi, we've got a Tektronix 4052 with 4611 printer a couple of weeks ago. The system is almost working fine, it has an issue with the hard copy function (i.e. no signal). I'd like to understand the machine and its "Super-6800" processor and therefore I'm looking for a copy of the service manual (BTW it's a 4052 and not a 4052A; the firmware level is 4) for both the 4052 and the 4611. Christian PS: I've put the ROM images from our machine on our FTP server: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tektronix/tek4052 The images from the ROM patch ICs, PALs and microcode ROMs will follow soon. From microcode at zoho.com Wed Dec 19 05:45:57 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:45:57 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121219114557.GE27691@zoho.com> Nice box! I loved the 4051s back in the day. Hope you have a great time with yours. I wonder if anybody has the old golf game I saw on the ones I used. I still have some tape cartridges somewhere, but haven't seen them for ages. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Dec 19 09:53:38 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:53:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did someone lose their collection that was in storage in Florida? Message-ID: Did someone lose their collection that was in storage in Florida? If so, did it include a Sol-20? If so, I have the contact information of the guy that bought out your storage. Contact me and I'll put you in touch. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 19 11:48:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:48:41 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > I'd like to understand the machine and its "Super-6800" processor and > therefore I'm looking for a copy of the service manual (BTW it's a 4052 > and not a 4052A; the firmware level is 4) for both the 4052 and the 4611. As I understand it, it's a re-implementation of the 6800 using AMD 29xx bit slice parts. There is quite a bit of documentation on the AMD 29xx bit slice family of processor parts. There is documentation on bitsavers: A popular book was "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by John Mick and Jim Brick aka "Mick and Brick". This book is basically a collection of the AMD application notes that shows you how to build a complete microprocessor usign the AMD 2900 series parts. > ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tektronix/tek4052 > The images from the ROM patch ICs, PALs and microcode ROMs will follow > soon. Are these different from the ones stored currently on bitsavers? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 19 12:50:45 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:50:45 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> Message-ID: <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people are asking for them! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:06 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics if theres any 720k floppy drives i would like some. i've got a ge workmaster that needs new drives but i am in canada with out a passport or a means of coming to this wearhouse :( ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5912 - Release Date: 11/22/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5969 - Release Date: 12/18/12 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 13:08:50 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:08:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards Message-ID: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> are they component level repairable, that is, are the individual chips readily available? Something tells me not likely. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 13:10:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:10:05 -0200 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> Message-ID: <2043269D2C02446FA80E2BEB812F0393@tababook> You can mod 1.44 drives and they work...I do lots of it for Amiga Computers. What are your specific requirements? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:50 PM Subject: RE: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people are > asking for them! > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:06 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > > if theres any 720k floppy drives i would like some. i've got a ge > workmaster > that needs new drives but i am in canada with out a passport or a means of > coming to this wearhouse :( > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5912 - Release Date: 11/22/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5969 - Release Date: 12/18/12 > From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 19 13:29:04 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:29:04 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <2043269D2C02446FA80E2BEB812F0393@tababook> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <2043269D2C02446FA80E2BEB812F0393@tababook> Message-ID: <00b401cdde1f$1b5266f0$51f734d0$@com> We have tried this, but for some applications, they have to have an actual 720kb drive. Many floppies can be configured via jumpers, but for one particular customer, this will not work. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 1:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics You can mod 1.44 drives and they work...I do lots of it for Amiga Computers. What are your specific requirements? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:50 PM Subject: RE: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people are > asking for them! > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:06 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics > > if theres any 720k floppy drives i would like some. i've got a ge > workmaster > that needs new drives but i am in canada with out a passport or a means of > coming to this wearhouse :( > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5912 - Release Date: 11/22/12 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5969 - Release Date: 12/18/12 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5969 - Release Date: 12/18/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5969 - Release Date: 12/18/12 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 13:19:40 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:19:40 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2298C5576C9D4B438E35D1C5A1CF5B6A@tababook> Not that much. The failure is hardly at the custom chips. But when they are gone, they are gone and hard to find replacements. I had to bin a V50 cause of one custom chip. What are you looking for specifically? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:08 PM Subject: older Yamaha keyboards > are they component level repairable, that is, are the individual chips > readily available? Something tells me not likely. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 13:35:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:35:05 -0200 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <2043269D2C02446FA80E2BEB812F0393@tababook> <00b401cdde1f$1b5266f0$51f734d0$@com> Message-ID: Tell me which equipment it is connected. I have adapted many kinds of 1.44MB drives to many 720KB hosts, maybe I can give some tips. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > We have tried this, but for some applications, they have to have an actual > 720kb drive. > Many floppies can be configured via jumpers, but for one particular > customer, this will not work. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 13:40:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:40:13 -0800 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> On 12/19/2012 11:08 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > are they component level repairable, that is, are the individual > chips readily available? Something tells me not likely. > Keyboard to what? A Yamaha C1 (80286 laptop), a Clavinova, a traditional piano,an electronic organ, a synth, one of their low-end teaching instrucments? Please be more specific! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 13:46:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:46:47 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <00b401cdde1f$1b5266f0$51f734d0$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <2043269D2C02446FA80E2BEB812F0393@tababook> <00b401cdde1f$1b5266f0$51f734d0$@com> Message-ID: <50D219A7.70806@sydex.com> It mostly depends on the type of 1.44M drive--some are easier than others. I've modified them for use with Japanese CNC applications, for example (1.6MB, In-use on pin 4 line, DS0-3, DC on pin 2, Ready on pin 34). --Chuck On 12/19/2012 11:29 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have tried this, but for some applications, they have to have an actual > 720kb drive. > Many floppies can be configured via jumpers, but for one particular > customer, this will not work. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 13:50:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <2298C5576C9D4B438E35D1C5A1CF5B6A@tababook> References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2298C5576C9D4B438E35D1C5A1CF5B6A@tababook> Message-ID: <1355946635.64105.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas ? Not that much. The failure is hardly at the custom chips. But when they are gone, they are gone and hard to find replacements. I had to bin a V50 cause of one custom chip. ? What are you looking for specifically? C: I don't have a clue. I met a guy at Target who was looking to buy a new one. He thinks he fried the board on his (water damage IIRC). I said I might be interested in buying it, but then daybreak broke out and I had to ask. ?I guess that may also put the kybosh on me ever getting my Yamaha CX5m music computer working :( ?Water is a funny thing. I woke up 2 mornings to find my cell phone in Oogy's water bowl (and the first time he KNEW he did something wrong, because he was staring into my face the moment I awoke). Both times dried it out and it was fine. Got my HP49g wet the other day, somehow, and it hasn't turned on since. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 14:05:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:05:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis Keyboard to what?? A Yamaha C1 (80286 laptop), a Clavinova, a traditional piano,an electronic organ, a synth, one of their low-end teaching instrucments? Please be more specific! --Chuck C: Apparently music has a language all it's own. Alexandre knew what I was talking about immediately and he doesn't even speak english. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:10:09 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:10:09 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2298C5576C9D4B438E35D1C5A1CF5B6A@tababook> <1355946635.64105.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8914194D910F415097BF822E60955C3E@tababook> >I guess that may also put the kybosh on me ever getting my Yamaha CX5m >music computer working :( Opa, this is my subject :) What happened to your MSX? A common problem is the memory manager (a custom chip) going south, and it is an easy fix. >Water is a funny thing. I woke up 2 mornings to find my cell phone in >Oogy's water bowl (and the first time he >KNEW he did something wrong, >because he was staring into my face the moment I awoke). Both times dried >it >out and it was fine. Got my HP49g wet the other day, somehow, and it >hasn't turned on since. HP49? You freed your mind! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:19:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:19:48 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >C: Apparently music has a language all it's own. Alexandre knew what I was >talking about immediately and he > >doesn't even speak english. Hey, I do speak english? Or what language is that I'm writting here? ;oD (no, we Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and not SPANISH :oD) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 15:06:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> Message-ID: <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people are > asking for them! Many "1.2M" drives can be substituted. You need to strap it for 300RPM. Watch out for density select, and READY V DISK-CHANGE Teac 55FG is a nice one for that. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 19 15:32:50 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:32:50 +0100 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Op 19 dec. 2012 om 22:06 heeft Fred Cisin het volgende geschreven: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people are >> asking for them! > > Many "1.2M" drives can be substituted. You need to strap it for 300RPM. > Watch out for density select, and READY V DISK-CHANGE > > Teac 55FG is a nice one for that. > Am I missing something ? 1.2M is 5.25" and 720k is 3.5" -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 15:45:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:45:42 -0800 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D23586.4080105@sydex.com> On 12/19/2012 12:05 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Apparently music has a language all it's own. Alexandre knew what > I was talking about immediately and he doesn't even speak english. Perhaps Alexandre wasn't familiar with the wide range of Yamaha products. I'm quite familiar with the language of music as well as some of the vintage Yamaha gear. I'd assumed that your request wasn't related to a piece of gear from their Marine Division. But to me, a "keyboard" means only an input device. If it's a synth, call it that. And then be specific. A local elementary school issues a little 30-key synth to each student in their beginning music classes. (Good, but I still prefer seeing Orff instruments used for that purpose). At any rate, few know of the Yamaha C-1, a few know about the "hybrid" PC-music gear, such as the CX5. For example, the DX7 synth is still very popular among musicians and there's likely a community of folks who know them inside and out. Yamaha usually wasn't very open about publishing datasheets, however. I've got a couple of Yamaha DSPs in 40 DIP and the best I've been able to find is a pinout with no legend. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 15:50:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:50:02 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50D2368A.5040000@sydex.com> On 12/19/2012 01:32 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Am I missing something ? > 1.2M is 5.25" and 720k is 3.5" Obviously, you don't work with much Japanese gear and have little experience with pre-IBM PCs. I've got a few Teac FD-55Fs for example, which are 96 tpi 300 RPM 5.25" drives. It was the NEC convention to use the same format from 8" to 3.5" media. Even the 5.25" drives were high-density only. So the 3.5" version of the format spins at 360 RPM, just like 8" and 5.25" HD. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 16:13:57 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:13:57 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D23586.4080105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <566B257E623940BDBF37D722D6226FE0@tababook> > Perhaps Alexandre wasn't familiar with the wide range of Yamaha products. > I'm quite familiar with the language of music as well as some of the > vintage Yamaha gear. I'd assumed that your request wasn't related to a > piece of gear from their Marine Division. Yep, I am :o) From pianos, organs, keyboards, sinthesizers, to motorcycles, computers, marine motors and more :o) > But to me, a "keyboard" means only an input device. If it's a synth, call > it that. And then be specific. A local elementary school issues a > little 30-key synth to each student in their beginning music classes. > (Good, but I still prefer seeing Orff instruments used for that purpose). But I know Yamaha doesn't make input devices :o) > At any rate, few know of the Yamaha C-1, a few know about the "hybrid" > PC-music gear, such as the CX5. For example, the DX7 synth is still very > popular among musicians and there's likely a community of folks who know > them inside and out. I know the C1 too :o) And most of the Yamaha gear, I'm a piano/keyboard/organ/whatever-has-keys player :oD > Yamaha usually wasn't very open about publishing datasheets, however. I've > got a couple of Yamaha DSPs in 40 DIP and the best I've been able to find > is a pinout with no legend. It depends. The Yamaha data sheets are excellent, but the ICs are **very** old and most of them not used outside USA (beyond the music keyboard chipsets). So it is not that easy to spot one. In the back times, if you wrote to Yamaha in Japan asking for a datasheet, they would send you everything they had about that specific IC and more. Been there, done that. Many times. Remember I'm an old time MSX hacker :o) Anyways, if you need something from Yamaha, drop me a mail, maybe I have that on my lab or my server. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 17:16:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:16:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Rik Bos wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people are > >> asking for them! > > > > Many "1.2M" drives can be substituted. You need to strap it for 300RPM. > > Watch out for density select, and READY V DISK-CHANGE > > > > Teac 55FG is a nice one for that. > Am I missing something ? Or are we all? > 1.2M is 5.25" and 720k is 3.5" The original poster asked for 720K drives for a "GE Workmaster"?? Is THAT 5.25" "quad density" or 3.5"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 17:21:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:21:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <50D23586.4080105@sydex.com> References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D23586.4080105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121219151729.O40458@shell.lmi.net> > > C:\DERP> Apparently music has a language all it's own. Alexandre knew > > what I was talking about immediately and he doesn't even speak > > english. On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps Alexandre wasn't familiar with the wide range of Yamaha > products. I'm quite familiar with the language of music as well as some > of the vintage Yamaha gear. I'd assumed that your request wasn't > related to a piece of gear from their Marine Division. nor motorcyles, etc. > But to me, a "keyboard" means only an input device. If it's a synth, > call it that. And then be specific. > . . . > At any rate, few know of the Yamaha C-1, a few know about the "hybrid" > PC-music gear, such as the CX5. For example, the DX7 synth is still > very popular among musicians and there's likely a community of folks who > know them inside and out. I briefly had a Yamaha MSX machine (Z80? MS-DOS-like disk format) that I bought from Mitchell Waite. NO recollection of model number. Its keyboard was a little flaky, and I never got around to disassembly to check that out. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 17:56:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:56:23 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D2181D.9080300@sydex.com> <1355947504.68328.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D23586.4080105@sydex.com> <20121219151729.O40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I briefly had a Yamaha MSX machine (Z80? MS-DOS-like disk format) > that I bought from Mitchell Waite. NO recollection of model number. > Its keyboard was a little flaky, and I never got around to disassembly > to check that out. Probably CX-5M. You also have the CX-5MII and the CX-7M, but the worst keyboard is on the CX-5M. I love MSX :o) From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Dec 19 18:27:43 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 00:27:43 +0000 Subject: VAX Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BAC1A9@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Since some VAX stuff came up on the list recently... Anyone know much about the VAXbrick 4000-50? Not a lot of info on it floating around... Also, anyone here know how much a VAX 4000-200 in BA215 weighs, and/or have one that they'd be willing to sell? Haven't seen any come up lately... what's the going rate? I always thought that was the best-looking of the pedestal enclosures. Thanks! -Ben From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 18:45:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:45:58 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50D25FC6.2040302@sydex.com> On 12/19/2012 03:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The original poster asked for 720K drives for a "GE Workmaster"?? > Is THAT 5.25" "quad density" or 3.5"? 135 TPI, 250Kbps. The original GE Workmaster was pretty much an IBM 5155 PC in GE's ruggized case with a proprietary keyboard. The disk drives are, IIRC, half-height 3.5" 720K drives (not 1/3 or 1/6 height as are most modern 3.5" drives). I've got a couple of old NEC or Mitsubishi half-heights of that era that might work. Both are belt-driven, rather than direct drive. You used to be able to get Teac FD-235Fs in a half-height package; I've got a 235HF that way, but it's been a long time since I've seen another. Did anyone ever sell 3.5" 1/3 height to 3.5" half-height adapters? --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 18:46:22 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:46:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Rik Bos wrote: >>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry, I have no 720kb floppy drives. Wish I did, a lot of people >>>> are asking for them! >>> >>> Many "1.2M" drives can be substituted. You need to strap it for >>> 300RPM. Watch out for density select, and READY V DISK-CHANGE >>> >>> Teac 55FG is a nice one for that. >> Am I missing something ? > Or are we all? > >> 1.2M is 5.25" and 720k is 3.5" > > The original poster asked for 720K drives for a "GE Workmaster"?? > Is THAT 5.25" "quad density" or 3.5"? Either way (3.5" double density 720K or 5.25" quad density 720K) both drives are virtually impossible to find today, and /if/ you can find one, chances are it isn't in perfect working order either. Pretty much the only real option now is to have someone refurbish/align the existing drive if you can't adapt a PC-compatible drive. Even 1.44MB 3.5" drives that could be adapted via jumpers to work in an application that used a non-PC 720K 3.5" drives have become incredibly scarce (out of the dozen+ that I had on my spares shelf, I only had /one/ drive that worked properly after cleaning and testing, the rest seem to all need an alignment). The reason this has happened is because so many people treated these drives as commodity parts (I'm looking at you, Amiga community) and tossed out drives that only needed minor mechanical work and/or a head alignment. This is especially true with 3.5" drives and I'm currently working on setting up something where I can align 3.5" drives because I can't find anyone else who still does it. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 19:02:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:02:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D25FC6.2040302@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D25FC6.2040302@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/19/2012 03:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> The original poster asked for 720K drives for a "GE Workmaster"?? Is >> THAT 5.25" "quad density" or 3.5"? > > 135 TPI, 250Kbps. > > The original GE Workmaster was pretty much an IBM 5155 PC in GE's > ruggized case with a proprietary keyboard. The disk drives are, IIRC, > half-height 3.5" 720K drives (not 1/3 or 1/6 height as are most modern > 3.5" drives). I've got a couple of old NEC or Mitsubishi half-heights of > that era that might work. Both are belt-driven, rather than direct > drive. > > You used to be able to get Teac FD-235Fs in a half-height package; I've > got a 235HF that way, but it's been a long time since I've seen another. > Did anyone ever sell 3.5" 1/3 height to 3.5" half-height adapters? That would be a Teac FD-135N (DSDD) or FD-135HFN (DSHD), both of which are in the "zomg rare" category today. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 19:19:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:19:38 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D25FC6.2040302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D267AA.5090705@sydex.com> On 12/19/2012 05:02 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > That would be a Teac FD-135N (DSDD) or FD-135HFN (DSHD), both of which > are in the "zomg rare" category today. FD135HF it is. Good call. I took a look at a couple of NEC FD1035 "720K" drives that I have here and I was wrong--the drive is indeed not belt drive, but direct. A curious thing is that they have head-load solenoids. Mfg. date is 1983. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 19:27:41 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:27:41 -0200 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <79390FC9E391413F8B16DBCB991C1847@tababook> > Even 1.44MB 3.5" drives that could be adapted via jumpers to work in an > application that used a non-PC 720K 3.5" drives have become incredibly > scarce (out of the dozen+ that I had on my spares shelf, I only had /one/ > drive that worked properly after cleaning and testing, the rest seem to > all need an alignment). The reason this has happened is because so many > people treated these drives as commodity parts (I'm looking at you, Amiga > community) and tossed out drives that only needed minor mechanical work > and/or a head alignment. This is especially true with 3.5" drives and I'm > currently working on setting up something where I can align 3.5" drives > because I can't find anyone else who still does it. I can buy them new in Brazil around Us$ 2. I put a pair on my A2000 (anyone has a memory expansion/scsi card spare? :D) and they are working flawlessly :) From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 19:48:15 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:48:15 -0600 Subject: SJ7613-3 data sheet Message-ID: I have a friend looking for datasheets for a (Motorola?) SJ7613-3. Any info would be useful. Thanks, Paul From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 19 20:08:13 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:08:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Dec 19, 12 09:56:23 pm" Message-ID: <201212200208.qBK28DO318874522@floodgap.com> > > I briefly had a Yamaha MSX machine (Z80? MS-DOS-like disk format) > > that I bought from Mitchell Waite. NO recollection of model number. > > Its keyboard was a little flaky, and I never got around to disassembly > > to check that out. > > Probably CX-5M. You also have the CX-5MII and the CX-7M, but the worst > keyboard is on the CX-5M. I have a CX5M. I need to set it up, I was really looking for one. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley ---------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 19 20:20:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:20:56 -0800 Subject: SJ7613-3 data sheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D27608.4020606@sydex.com> On 12/19/2012 05:48 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a friend looking for datasheets for a (Motorola?) SJ7613-3. > Any info would be useful. A closed auction on eBay seems to identify it as a TO-3 power MOSFET. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 21:02:08 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:02:08 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <201212200208.qBK28DO318874522@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2ED86CD7198E4C43AFC663CA3D1479DD@tababook> > I have a CX5M. I need to set it up, I was really looking for one. What do you need? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 21:33:41 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:33:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards Message-ID: <1355974421.78327.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:02 PM PST Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I have a CX5M. I need to set it up, I was really looking for one. > > What do you need? Likely a video cable for starters. And a disk controller - got a schematic, as well as a list of compatible floppy drives? From technobug at comcast.net Wed Dec 19 21:52:58 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:52:58 -0700 Subject: Mitsubishi Monitor HG-6905 Service Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If there is any interest in the subject 19" color monitor manual, it is available for postage from 85704. ->CRC From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 22:14:53 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:14:53 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <1355974421.78327.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BCC9A501158468E97A528E8666A81AE@tababook> > Likely a video cable for starters. And a disk controller - got a > schematic, as well as a list of compatible floppy drives? Here we go: http://www.cx5m.net/ (dunno why it is not opening, but you can find it on wayback machine, and I must have it ripped somewhere) is THE site about the CX5M. You have the pinout of the video cable on the manual, which is here: http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=hu&site=hu.yamaha.com&asset_id=4605 It is easier to buy a disk controller, these can be easily found in Brazil. I can assist you in getting one. There are also SCSI and IDE controllers. Drive can be used anything from 180 to 720K. It is usual to have 360 and 720k disks. Anything pc-compatible in the 360 and 720K realm can be used, just don't forget to change DS1 to DS0 on the drive. Schematic can be found on the service manual, let me see here... ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx/docs/service_manuals/yamahacx5musm.pdf ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx/docs/service_manuals/yamahacx5msm.pdf And of course, the CX-5M FAQ http://home.online.no/~eiriklie/CX5MFAQ.html May I be of more help? :o) From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Dec 20 00:30:20 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:30:20 +0000 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <50CE3578.7080807@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <50CE3578.7080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25A8962@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Rob Doyle Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:56 PM > I know absolutely nothing about Massbus or the disk systems that were > common on the KS10. I would like to choose one disk drive type that the > KS10 supported to implement/emulate. I'm not sure which one would be > the 'best'. I'd appreciate suggestions. RP06. The other supported drive, the RM03, is too small for Real Work(TM). RM05 and RP07 mean around in the monitor code to try to get them to work, and you probably won't unless you're a very good monitor programmer with lots of PDP-10 assembler experience. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 00:37:02 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:37:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mitsubishi Monitor HG-6905 Service Manual Message-ID: <1355985422.76246.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:52 PM PST CRC wrote: >If there is any interest in the subject 19" color monitor manual, it is available for postage from 85704. > > ->CRC interested. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 20 02:07:17 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:07:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: > As I understand it, it's a re-implementation of the 6800 using AMD > 29xx bit slice parts. There is quite a bit of documentation on the Yes, but not 1:1. First, the opcodes found in the ROMs don't give much sense to me (when compared with the opcodes in the M6800 book). Second, I don't see how a M6800 can be expanded to a 16 bit data path (what I imply). So there must be something "interesting" in this design. > AMD 29xx bit slice family of processor parts. There is documentation > on bitsavers: I have those books in the shelf. But I don't want to understand the 2901, I want to understand the 4052. > Are these different from the ones stored currently on bitsavers? > I'd say yes, they're very different. At least the part numbers don't match (even the board numbers are different), and the contents is similar but not the same. Christian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 20 04:12:33 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:12:33 +1300 Subject: YouTube video on the Dick Smith System 80 Message-ID: One more for the pot. The Dick Smith System 80 (aka Video Genie or PMC-80). This was a clone of the TRS-80 model 1 and my first computer! http://youtu.be/-t5tk3XVIRI Terry Stewart (Tez) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 20 09:52:19 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:52:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <2ED86CD7198E4C43AFC663CA3D1479DD@tababook> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Dec 20, 12 01:02:08 am" Message-ID: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> > > I have a CX5M. I need to set it up, I was really looking for one. > > What do you need? Time and space :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The less we know, the better we feel. -- David Bowie, "Miracle Goodnight" -- From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 19 13:25:52 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:25:52 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D214C0.50601@jwsss.com> I have a lot of equipment made by a company here in Irvine / Newport Beach, Hilevel technology. The prime business they were in in the 2900 time frame and the product they built their reputation and continuing business on was rom simulation for 2900 designs, and also customizable debug engines, so you could buy a rom simulator, and also load it and have some amount of capability to do things like set breakpoints on certain events / test points. If anyone were to want some, I have a lot of them I acquired when they were going very cheap. They can be mixed and matched into rom simulators should you want vintage equipment to play with on your vintage equipment. They now make simulators for people who want to emulate / test asics, etc., sort of an natural progression of the same sort of tool. Jim On 12/19/2012 9:48 AM, Richard wrote: > In article , > Christian Corti writes: > >> I'd like to understand the machine and its "Super-6800" processor and >> therefore I'm looking for a copy of the service manual (BTW it's a 4052 >> and not a 4052A; the firmware level is 4) for both the 4052 and the 4611. > As I understand it, it's a re-implementation of the 6800 using AMD > 29xx bit slice parts. There is quite a bit of documentation on the > AMD 29xx bit slice family of processor parts. There is documentation > on bitsavers: > > A popular book was "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by John Mick and > Jim Brick aka "Mick and Brick". This book is basically a collection > of the AMD application notes that shows you how to build a complete > microprocessor usign the AMD 2900 series parts. > >> ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tektronix/tek4052 >> The images from the ROM patch ICs, PALs and microcode ROMs will follow >> soon. > Are these different from the ones stored currently on bitsavers? > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 20 11:55:58 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:55:58 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: > > As I understand it, it's a re-implementation of the 6800 using AMD > > 29xx bit slice parts. There is quite a bit of documentation on the > > Yes, but not 1:1. First, the opcodes found in the ROMs don't give much > sense to me (when compared with the opcodes in the M6800 book). Didn't they also have a binary form of tokenized BASIC? If so, is it possible that the opcodes in the ROM are tokenized BASIC and not directly executable machine code? I thought they needed 6800 instruction set compatability for anyone who had written assembly language code for the 4051. > Second, I > don't see how a M6800 can be expanded to a 16 bit data path (what I > imply). So there must be something "interesting" in this design. I was always under the impression that they had used undefined opcodes and unused bits in existing opcodes to extend the instruction set. I scanned all the issues of Tekniques that I had and there might be something in there. I haven't read them all. > > AMD 29xx bit slice family of processor parts. There is documentation > > on bitsavers: > > I have those books in the shelf. But I don't want to understand the 2901, > I want to understand the 4052. Isn't understanding the 29xx parts necessary in order to understand the 4052 design? > > Are these different from the ones stored currently on bitsavers? > > > > I'd say yes, they're very different. At least the part numbers don't > match (even the board numbers are different), and the contents is similar > but not the same. We should get these uploaded to bitsavers, then. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 15:05:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 19:05:24 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> >> > I have a CX5M. I need to set it up, I was really looking for one. >> What do you need? > Time and space :) Maybe tomorrow when world ends? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 20 15:20:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> Message-ID: <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> > >> What do you need? > > Time and space :) On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Maybe tomorrow when world ends? It's about time! But, the mice will be furious. I understand that the dolphins are already negotiating at Magrathea for a replacement. But it's likely to have the same bugs. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 16:00:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:00:03 -0200 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> >> >> What do you need? >> > Time and space :) >> Maybe tomorrow when world ends? > It's about time! > But, the mice will be furious. Why? There will be no Tom anymore to play with Jerry? :oO > I understand that the dolphins are already negotiating at Magrathea for a > replacement. But it's likely to have the same bugs. Did you take your medications today? :o) Is everything right? ;o) (keep ontopic) There is a photo of me playing with a CX5M and an original Nemesis (Gradius, for you japanese speakers) cartridge somewhere, let me see... Me and CX5M https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320356_337142769695309_1251521896_n.jpg Me playing :oD https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/376242_337142149695371_1427751684_n.jpg Flash cart made with a SCC Cart and a flash memory https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/548856_331887513554168_1317777165_n.jpg Expert3, a brazilian motherboard made for the Gradiente Expert (MSX1) containing a MSX2+, FM sound, 4MB mapper memory, expanded slots, RTC, the whole nine yards https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/545824_302796599796593_1450373481_n.jpg Top view of the board (without the 2-slot daughterboard) https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/530084_303401563069430_1657285865_n.jpg More MSX photos on www.tabalabs.com.br :o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 16:04:43 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 17:04:43 -0500 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > Even 1.44MB 3.5" drives that could be adapted via jumpers to work in an > application that used a non-PC 720K 3.5" drives have become incredibly > scarce... Is there a list of part numbers to watch for? I haven't purged my collection, but except for a large box of Tandy-compatible 3.5" drives (the one that pumped drive power over the 34-pin cable), what I have is a random assortment I'd want to check against a list to know which ones are keepers and which ones are only useful if I wanted to read DOS floppies on a PC. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 20 16:44:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:44:09 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> On 12/20/2012 02:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> Even 1.44MB 3.5" drives that could be adapted via jumpers to work in an >> application that used a non-PC 720K 3.5" drives have become incredibly >> scarce... > > Is there a list of part numbers to watch for? I haven't purged my > collection, but except for a large box of Tandy-compatible 3.5" drives > (the one that pumped drive power over the 34-pin cable), what I have > is a random assortment I'd want to check against a list to know which > ones are keepers and which ones are only useful if I wanted to read > DOS floppies on a PC. Well Teac FD235-F, -HF, -HG, -J are all well-constructed, but there's a huge variation in PCB configurations, so endorsing any single version is pretty much an exercise in futility. My latest favorite is the Samsung SFD-321B. The jumper pads on the PCB are well-labeled and you can get a datasheet for the drive. Both ready and disk change are easily accessible and drive selects 0-3 as well as the In Use output are available as well as 2- and 3-mode operation. They don't seem to be in short supply, either. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 20 16:59:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:59:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> Message-ID: <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> Maybe tomorrow when world ends? > > It's about time! > > But, the mice will be furious. > > I understand that the dolphins are already negotiating at Magrathea for a > > replacement. But it's likely to have the same bugs. > Did you take your medications today? :o) Is everything right? ;o) Just some references to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams little stressed; OK, a LOT. my mother appears to be coming down with Parkinsons. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 20 17:31:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:31:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My latest favorite is the Samsung SFD-321B. The jumper pads on the PCB are > well-labeled and you can get a datasheet for the drive. Both ready and disk > change are easily accessible and drive selects 0-3 as well as the In Use > output are available as well as 2- and 3-mode operation. > > They don't seem to be in short supply, either. > Is there a vendor you know of that stocks them? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 20 17:52:51 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:52:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Dec 20, 12 02:59:53 pm" Message-ID: <201212202352.qBKNqpVP19267834@floodgap.com> > Just some references to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams > > little stressed; OK, a LOT. my mother appears to be coming down with > Parkinsons. Ugh. :( -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Political correctness is tyranny with manners. -- Charlton Heston ---------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 20 18:00:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:00:21 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> On 12/20/2012 03:31 PM, geneb wrote: > Is there a vendor you know of that stocks them? I've just been picking them up by lots on eBay, but the things, I believe were used in a lot of Compaq desktops. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 20 19:39:49 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 17:39:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/20/2012 03:31 PM, geneb wrote: > >> Is there a vendor you know of that stocks them? > > I've just been picking them up by lots on eBay, but the things, I believe > were used in a lot of Compaq desktops. > Ah, ok. They don't have faces on them then? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 20:46:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 18:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mitsubishi Monitor HG-6905 Service Manual Message-ID: <1356057969.17096.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:52 PM PST CRC wrote: >If there is any interest in the subject 19" color monitor manual, it is available for postage from 85704. > > ->CRC My zip is 08005 if Im in the running. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 20 22:22:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:22:58 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> On 12/20/2012 05:39 PM, geneb wrote: > Ah, ok. They don't have faces on them then? Oh, sure they do. Take, for example, eBay 290751200466 --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 20 23:26:26 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/20/2012 05:39 PM, geneb wrote: > >> Ah, ok. They don't have faces on them then? > > Oh, sure they do. > > Take, for example, eBay 290751200466 > Ahh, ok. I was expecting a different style drive. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 00:45:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 22:45:52 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> On 12/20/2012 09:26 PM, geneb wrote: > Ahh, ok. I was expecting a different style drive. Anything special? --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 21 04:34:12 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:34:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: > Didn't they also have a binary form of tokenized BASIC? If so, is it > possible that the opcodes in the ROM are tokenized BASIC and not > directly executable machine code? I don't think they used BASIC tokens to implement their BASIC interpreter or ROM packs. > I thought they needed 6800 instruction set compatability for anyone > who had written assembly language code for the 4051. AFAIK assembly code for the 4051 (e.g. ROM packs) explicitly don't run on the 4052. For example, a CALL "EXEC" is not portable between the 6800 and the bitslice systems. > Isn't understanding the 29xx parts necessary in order to understand > the 4052 design? Sure, but the 29xx is not the problem, it's what has been realized with them. And without schematics and/or service manual (I know that there are people that have them) I won't be able to understand the processor that they've built. > We should get these uploaded to bitsavers, then. Agreed, that is my intention. I'll send them to Al when I'll have read the remaining ROMs. Christian From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 21 08:10:39 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:10:39 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <001c01cddf84$f4d6fe20$de84fa60$@com> http://www.elecshopper.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?limit=all&q=sfd-321 We have about 130 of these drives left. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My latest favorite is the Samsung SFD-321B. The jumper pads on the > PCB are well-labeled and you can get a datasheet for the drive. Both > ready and disk change are easily accessible and drive selects 0-3 as > well as the In Use output are available as well as 2- and 3-mode operation. > > They don't seem to be in short supply, either. > Is there a vendor you know of that stocks them? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5975 - Release Date: 12/20/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5975 - Release Date: 12/20/12 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 10:11:07 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:11:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/20/2012 09:26 PM, geneb wrote: > >> Ahh, ok. I was expecting a different style drive. > > Anything special? > Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use drives with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of the case. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 10:22:07 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Very interesting PET.... Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/190773363531 Personally, I love the idea of having a PET with a TEMPEST rated keyboard enclosure. *grin* I hope someone here manages to score this thing! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 21 10:53:19 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:53:19 -0600 Subject: Very interesting PET.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005401cddf9b$ae6bd5c0$0b438140$@com> I have tempest kbds for Mac, IBM, and Zenith, but they will NOT work on a regular connection. The tempest computers have different connections, usually DB9. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:22 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Very interesting PET.... http://cgi.ebay.com/190773363531 Personally, I love the idea of having a PET with a TEMPEST rated keyboard enclosure. *grin* I hope someone here manages to score this thing! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5975 - Release Date: 12/20/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5975 - Release Date: 12/20/12 From rickb at bensene.com Fri Dec 21 11:30:53 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:30:53 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4052 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 4054 service manual is up on Bitsavers. The 2901-based CPU for the 4054 is very similar to that in the 4052. Similar enough that looking through it should give you the answers you seek. The microcoded engine does indeed emulate a Motorola 6800, but it adds extensions to the instruction set so that the machine can address more memory. It also changes the interrupt processing and I/O stuff, which is part of the reason that the 4052 can't run ROMPacks designed for the 4051, and that CALL "EXEC" code doesn't port directly. The 4054 does have some additional hardware in it that generates vectors for refresh graphics and other things, but architecturally the main CPU components are very similar to the 4052. To gain a deep understanding of the CPU, it'll be necessary to understand the microcode contained in the fast ROM on the ALU board. The ALU board contains the 2901's and the sequencing logic to create the6800-like microengine that runs the machine. I have a 4052A that runs, and a 4052 that doesn't due to a bad ROM on the MAS board. The real problem is that the ROMs used on the 4051 and 4052 (not the 4052A) are virtually unobtainium. They have to be fast, and use a strange addressing scheme. Finding a ROM programmer that can program the original chips (assuming you can find them) is also a challenge. The chips can't be directly replaced by a 2764 (the ROMs are 8kx8), because of pinout and chip select/chip enable differences. It is hard to make a piggyback board that plugs into the ROM socket and uses a fast 2764 because of clearance problems with the circuit board support rail. In the 4052A, they changed the ROMs to 2764's. I need to read the 4052A ROMs out and put them up on Bitsavers...something I'll do when I have time, which isn't very often anymore. The ROMs on the MAS board (the board with the RAM on it also) contain the "operating system" for the 4052...which contains the code that the "modified emulated 6800" CPU executes to run the machine. The ROMs on the ALU board contain the microcode that the 2901's execute to create the pseudo-6800 machine. Some, but not all of the "OS" code was copied from the 4051 code tree at the source level. From what I can tell, a special assembler was written on a PDP-10 system that assembled the modified 6800 source code to generate the content that went into the OS ROMs. The OS ROM is organized as a "HIGH" byte and "LOW" byte 16-bit word. I believe that the memory controller reads a 16-but word at a time, and the ALU processes it as a 16-bit word. The microcode engine has some pipelining in it to speed execution of certain types of instruction flow. I worked at Tektronix from '77 to '90, and learned a lot about these machines during that time. Some of the memories are a little foggy, but I'm very positive that the code in the ROMs on the MAS board are indeed mostly 6800 code. There may be some difference in the ordering of bits in a byte, e.g., the MSB of a byte may be bit 7 or bit 0. That could change the interpretation of bytes in the ROM. Looking at a single ROM, you are only seeing the "EVEN" or "ODD" bytes of instruction flow, which also could be confusing the interpretation of the code. Hopefully this will be helpful to those digging around in the 4052. Rick Bensene From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 11:39:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:39:35 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 08:11 AM, geneb wrote: > Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use drives > with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of the case. I guess it depends. I've certainly got some with full bezels and a Compaq sticker on them. I think Dell also used these drives. At any rate, you can find them very inexpensively and they work in quite a number of situations that would be very difficult for a plain white-box Teac FD235HF. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 12:35:20 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:35:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/21/2012 08:11 AM, geneb wrote: > >> Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use drives >> with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of the case. > > I guess it depends. I've certainly got some with full bezels and a Compaq > sticker on them. I think Dell also used these drives. At any rate, you can > find them very inexpensively and they work in quite a number of situations > that would be very difficult for a plain white-box Teac FD235HF. > I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 21 12:49:08 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:49:08 -0500 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics References: Message-ID: <59EE7D474DD946C595C143E22D55C9F4@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:10:39 -0600 > From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" > > http://www.elecshopper.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?limit=all&q=sfd-321 > > We have about 130 of these drives left. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls ----- Reply: A favourite for replacing 8" drives because as Chuck mentioned it has a relatively rare 360RPM speed option. m From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 12:52:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:52:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <8914194D910F415097BF822E60955C3E@tababook> References: <1355944130.36286.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2298C5576C9D4B438E35D1C5A1CF5B6A@tababook> <1355946635.64105.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8914194D910F415097BF822E60955C3E@tababook> Message-ID: <1356115944.12876.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas > I guess that may also put the kybosh on me ever getting my Yamaha CX5m music computer working :( ? Opa, this is my subject :) What happened to your MSX? A common problem is the memory manager (a custom chip) going south, and it is an easy fix. C: If it's a custom ic, how is it an easy fix? In actuality, I don't know that it doesn't work, it actually might. I should get a video cable built very soon. I'm such a slothful mess. > Water is a funny thing. I woke up 2 mornings to find my cell phone in Oogy's water bowl (and the first time he >KNEW he did something wrong, because he was staring into my face the moment I awoke). Both times dried it >out and it was fine. Got my HP49g wet the other day, somehow, and it hasn't turned on since. ? HP49? You freed your mind! :D C: Well it was annoying to have to wait for the stack to clear or whatever. That problem was alleviated on the 50g (wicked fast by comparison). I sold my 50g in a mad fit of selling rage. Thinking of buying another one, or/and the TI-nspire CX CAS. People are saying that the 50g is superior, but the TI is so kewel. ?Anyone know if HP is ever coming out w/a color calculator??? From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 21 12:54:48 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:54:48 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive mods WAS Kerrville TX pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00a201cddfac$a6cec4b0$f46c4e10$@com> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html http://majzel.blogspot.com/2009/04/converting-from-8-to-35-inch-floppy.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/21/2012 08:11 AM, geneb wrote: > >> Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use drives >> with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of the case. > > I guess it depends. I've certainly got some with full bezels and a > Compaq sticker on them. I think Dell also used these drives. At any > rate, you can find them very inexpensively and they work in quite a > number of situations that would be very difficult for a plain white-box Teac FD235HF. > I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5975 - Release Date: 12/20/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5975 - Release Date: 12/20/12 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 13:04:49 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:04:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> Message-ID: <1356116689.58225.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas ? Maybe tomorrow when world ends? C: Michael Savage stated the other night that college educated Mayans don't buy into that. Thank God for college is all I say! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 13:09:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:09:45 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 10:35 AM, geneb wrote: > I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks > needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A > few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) Well, the Samsungs do have READY available on pin 34 and can run in 1.6MB mode as a direct substitute for 8" drives (i.e., spindle speed is 360 RPM). If you wanted to do a paddle board to adapt the 34 pin header to an edge connector, you could also add jumpers for DS0-3, rather than ask the user to hand-solder different jumpers to the drive PCB. I guess one serious question is "Do you want to have the drive be insensitive to the media-type hole in 3.5" disks?" While many people do use 3.5" DSHD floppies with the hole taped over for 720K use, I do question the advisability of this, particularly given the terrible quality of late-manufacture DSHD 3.5" floppies. It's sort of a turnabout. Back in the late 80s, when DSHD media was $50 a box, you'd see lots of DS2D media formatted as DSHD and punches were even sold to add the hole to the jacket. It might seem strange, but I'd have a lot more faith in one of those surviving 20 years of storage than a modern DSHD floppy back-converted to a DS2D. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 13:10:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:10:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>? ? Maybe tomorrow when world ends? > > It's about time! > > But, the mice will be furious. > > I understand that the dolphins are already negotiating at Magrathea for a > > replacement.? But it's likely to have the same bugs. >? ? Did you take your medications today? :o) Is everything right? ;o) Just some references to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams little stressed; OK, a LOT.? my mother appears to be coming down with Parkinsons. C: I can only offer my sympathies (and prayers). Ironically my mother has something wrong w/the nerves at least in one of her hands. Her larger problem is she's just crazy (or Yugoslavian) or both. Seems irreverent I'm sure. I'm just tired of her accusing me of Satanism. Yes I said it you heard it here. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 13:23:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:23:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 Message-ID: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm looking at this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shugart-model-801-8-Floppy-Drive-/230897115754?pt=US_Floppy_Zip_Jaz_Drives&hash=item35c28a626a and it seems to be very similar to the drives in my Intel MDS box (blue if that matters, and that's all I have of an MDS system). The listing calls it a Shugart 801. I seem to recall Fred stating that a S* 800 was a *good* drive to utilize w/some peecee disk controllers.? Is an 801 also *good*? I e-mailed the seller intending to grill some info out of him. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 13:31:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:31:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121221113022.H84182@shell.lmi.net> > > I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks > > needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A > > few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, the Samsungs do have READY available on pin 34 and can run in > 1.6MB mode as a direct substitute for 8" drives (i.e., spindle speed is > 360 RPM). If you wanted to do a paddle board to adapt the 34 pin header > to an edge connector, Readily available, sometimes with a READY jumper back when 3.5 drives were being retrofitted to machines with 5.25 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 13:41:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:41:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive mods WAS Kerrville TX pics In-Reply-To: <00a201cddfac$a6cec4b0$f46c4e10$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <00a201cddfac$a6cec4b0$f46c4e10$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html > > http://majzel.blogspot.com/2009/04/converting-from-8-to-35-inch-floppy.html > Yep, that's the kind of thing. However, I'm talking about having a run of boards made. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 13:42:41 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:42:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> can you nibble notch double sided 8" disks to use with... (which leads into next question) does the early Option Board work w/single sided drives? From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 13:43:44 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:43:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/21/2012 10:35 AM, geneb wrote: > >> I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks >> needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A >> few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) > I guess one serious question is "Do you want to have the drive be insensitive > to the media-type hole in 3.5" disks?" While many people do use 3.5" DSHD > floppies with the hole taped over for 720K use, I do question the > advisability of this, particularly given the terrible quality of > late-manufacture DSHD 3.5" floppies. > I'd go straight to Athana. They still make/stock 720k media. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 13:44:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:44:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121221113839.C84182@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I'm looking at this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shugart-model-801-8-Floppy-Drive-/230897115754?pt=US_Floppy_Zip_Jaz_Drives&hash=item35c28a626a > and it seems to be very similar to the drives in my Intel MDS box (blue > if that matters, and that's all I have of an MDS system). The listing > calls it a Shugart 801. I seem to recall Fred stating that a S* 800 was > a *good* drive to utilize w/some peecee disk controllers.? Is an 801 > also *good*? I e-mailed the seller intending to grill some info out of > him. Well, 800 was the original one that many systems were designed around. 801 should be fully compatible. BUT, you might want to watch for a double sided drive! (850, 851? TM-848?) 8" drives are mostly pretty old by now; not sure how many are gonna work without some overdue maintenance From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 21 13:48:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:48:54 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive mods WAS Kerrville TX pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <00a201cddfac$a6cec4b0$f46c4e10$@com> Message-ID: <50D4BD26.2050702@neurotica.com> On 12/21/2012 02:41 PM, geneb wrote: >> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html >> >> http://majzel.blogspot.com/2009/04/converting-from-8-to-35-inch-floppy.html >> >> > Yep, that's the kind of thing. However, I'm talking about having a run > of boards made. I'm in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 21 13:52:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:52:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm just tired of her accusing me of Satanism. I once told someone I was neo-pagan and got asked in response "so, you're, like, a Satanist?". I said, "No, I'm not Christian enough to be a Satanist". I expected that to produce further confusion, which it did. :-/ /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 13:58:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:58:21 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D4BF5D.2060701@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 11:23 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I'm looking at this: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shugart-model-801-8-Floppy-Drive-/230897115754?pt=US_Floppy_Zip_Jaz_Drives&hash=item35c28a626a > > and it seems to be very similar to the drives in my Intel MDS box > (blue if that matters, and that's all I have of an MDS system). The > listing calls it a Shugart 801. I seem to recall Fred stating that a > S* 800 was a *good* drive to utilize w/some peecee disk controllers. > Is an 801 also *good*? I e-mailed the seller intending to grill some > info out of him. > I think it's safe to say that the SA801 was probably the most widely-used 8" drive during the 1970s. Be aware, however, that it's a single-sided drive. The SA801 differs from the SA800 mostly in that the 801 has some added circuitry for separating index from sector holes on hard-sectored media and write-protect sensing is standard (it was an option on the SA800). AFAIK, all of the MDS boxes from the 800 on, used SA801s. If you pick a used one up, be certain to check the almost bewildering number of customer cuts/jumpers on the PCB before deploying the unit--and redoing them if needed. There were some pretty strangely set-up drives around in those days. Bitsavers has a nice collection of reference material on both drives. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 14:12:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:12:15 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D4C29F.2040701@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 11:42 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > can you nibble notch double sided 8" disks to use with... (which leads into next question) Yes, it involves punching an appropriately-placed sector aperture in the jacket. As a matter of fact, several manufacturers sold 8" floppies with that feature right from the factory. Media was expensive back then--typically $5-$10 per floppy, so there was a good reason for it--and this was in pre-1980 hyperinflation dollars when McDonalds offered a burger, fries and drink for less than a dollar and you could purchase a new car for $3000. > does the early Option Board work w/single sided drives? I don't see why it wouldn't. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 14:18:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:18:37 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 11:43 AM, geneb wrote: > I'd go straight to Athana. They still make/stock 720k media. Good move. I suspect that even legacy media isn't going to be around for too much longer. I'm fooling with some of the GoTek floppy emulator drives from China that can be purchased for less than $30 shipped. They use an ARM MCU--there's really not much inside, but they come in a nice 3.5" sized case with a 2-digit LED display and a couple of pushbuttons for selecting images. Mostly, the issue is not hardware with these, but the hosting software needed to write to the USB flash drive that's used with them. It tends to understand only DOS-formatted media. I suspect that some hacking can overcome that issue. I am aware that a new "slim" HxC emulator is in the works and I applaud the dedication of the developers. However,I'd just like to see an inexpensive commodity item being adapted for use. Correspondence with the manufacturer leads me to believe that if purchased in quantity, the price could be under $15. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 14:19:08 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:19:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121221120116.F84182@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > can you nibble notch double sided 8" disks to use with... YES. I don't know of any jigs available. The Berkeley Microcomputer (ME!) Flip-jig 8" version was in very limited production. But, you can make one, or just measure and mark with another diskette. In addition to the write protect notch, If you want to flip a single sided disk, OR use single sided disk in a double-sided-ONLY drive, OR use double sided disks in a single-sided drive, you would ALSO need to punch the jacket for index hole access, which is in a different position for single V double sided 8" disks! (Easiest way to differentiate single V double sided disks) > does the early Option Board work w/single sided drives? should. it was designed for 5.25" 360K. Side select was handled by the host controller, and simply passed through. BUT, it will NOT work with unmodified software with a Double sided [unmodified] disk in a single sided [unmodified] drive. The option board software was critically dependent on presence of the index pulse. Use correct drive for disk (MOST double sided drives will also work for single sided), or punch index hole access. OB_Disclaimer: I didn't use Option Board with 8" OB_Anecdote: In the "Computer Bowl" quiz show, the entire team that contained Bill Gates could not come up with an answer for WHERE the Write-Protect notch is on an 8" diskette! (It is on the leading edge of the disk, so that it can do maximum damage when it falls off while removing the disk) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 14:23:30 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:23:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/21/2012 08:11 AM, geneb wrote: >> >>> Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use drives >>> with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of the case. >> >> I guess it depends. I've certainly got some with full bezels and a Compaq >> sticker on them. I think Dell also used these drives. At any rate, you >> can find them very inexpensively and they work in quite a number of >> situations that would be very difficult for a plain white-box Teac FD235HF. > > I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks > needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A > few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) That won't work for most drives. You need also the disk change signal on pin 2 instead of using pin 2 for density select or density reporting. Many non-pc applications require disk change on pin 2 for proper operation, otherwise you take a major risk with screwing up a disk when you put in a different disk and then write to it. Such a board also wouldn't help with disabling the drive's internal 1.44MB sensor/mode. I've run into a number of applications where people have been successfully using 1.44MB media in their 720K drives, so if they simply install a 1.44MB drive without disabling or altering the 1.44MB sensor, the 1.44MB drive then tries to operate in high density mode with those high density disks that have been formatted as double density in a 720K drive. Ideally you should never be "hacking cables", you just need the right drive that has the correct shunts/jumpers so it can be configured for whichever non-pc application. That swapping 2 pins idea just doesn't work properly for most applications, and is incredibly risky with the great many non-pc applications that use 720K drives that rely on having a proper disk change signal on pin 2. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 14:28:48 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:28:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/20/2012 09:26 PM, geneb wrote: >> >>> Ahh, ok. I was expecting a different style drive. >> >> Anything special? > > Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use drives > with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of the case. I've yet to see one of these Samsung drives that has the options required for the disk change signal and that can be configured to disable high density (1.44MB) mode to force the drive into double density (720K) only mode. I guess these are like the Teac drives in that they made dozens, if not hundreds of different revisions/models of these drives. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 14:34:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:34:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Mouse > I'm just tired of her accusing me of Satanism. I once told someone I was neo-pagan and got asked in response "so, you're, like, a Satanist?".? I said, "No, I'm not Christian enough to be a Satanist".? I expected that to produce further confusion, which it did. :-/ C: Well utter nonsense usually does have that affect. You're point I'll take it is that Satan/Lucifer is a *product* of the Jewish/Christian scriptures. But conflating Christianity w/Satanism leaves something to be desired as to valid logic. That's ok though. The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of the early forms of paganism, stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. ?I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. You ask her). So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She stated to the effect that all those old world gods were manifestations/representations of "the Divine". So why aren't they all just manifestations of ol' Beelzebub I ask? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 14:36:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:36:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <50D4C29F.2040701@sydex.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4C29F.2040701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356122197.98268.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > does the early Option Board work w/single sided drives? I don't see why it wouldn't. --Chuck C: My concern was that it might return an error upon trying to access the 2nd head. But IBM used ss media in the early days so I guess as you say there shouldn't be a problem. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 14:44:39 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:44:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356122679.12894.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis Good move.? I suspect that even legacy media isn't going to be around for too much longer C: Someone has to be able to come up w/a method for coating (or recoating) the media used for floppy disks. I somehow just cannot see this as undoable. Not that a *new* disk is necessarily the best answer for all problems, but it's as valid a pursuit as any other. Someone get a hold of that Gerri gal. She'll figure it out. From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 21 14:48:14 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:48:14 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <001101cddfbc$7f2d8df0$7d88a9d0$@com> A caution for USB flash drives, they are VERY static sensitive, and there is no way to write protect most of them. Many govt and high security companies have banned them because on most of them you can't password protect the entire drive, like you could a floppy. Yes, you can still encrypt individual files, but that does not meet their requirements. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 2:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics On 12/21/2012 11:43 AM, geneb wrote: > I'd go straight to Athana. They still make/stock 720k media. Good move. I suspect that even legacy media isn't going to be around for too much longer. I'm fooling with some of the GoTek floppy emulator drives from China that can be purchased for less than $30 shipped. They use an ARM MCU--there's really not much inside, but they come in a nice 3.5" sized case with a 2-digit LED display and a couple of pushbuttons for selecting images. Mostly, the issue is not hardware with these, but the hosting software needed to write to the USB flash drive that's used with them. It tends to understand only DOS-formatted media. I suspect that some hacking can overcome that issue. I am aware that a new "slim" HxC emulator is in the works and I applaud the dedication of the developers. However,I'd just like to see an inexpensive commodity item being adapted for use. Correspondence with the manufacturer leads me to believe that if purchased in quantity, the price could be under $15. --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5976 - Release Date: 12/21/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5976 - Release Date: 12/21/12 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 15:08:24 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:08:24 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <50D4BF5D.2060701@sydex.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4BF5D.2060701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D4CFC8.9010300@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/12 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you pick a used one up, be certain to check the almost bewildering number of customer cuts/jumpers on the PCB before deploying the unit--and redoing them if needed. The other thing to be careful about is the felt pad on arm above the R/W head. It was removable, and I've come across a number of them that had it missing, or had the felt torn off the little plastic replaceable part. Another common SS drive was Siemens. There were a lot of them surplus around in the late 70's. I just switched my double sided reader to a AHA-1522 with 8477A controller and a Shugart 851 and the combo is working very well. It is MUCH easier to clean the heads with a cotton swab on the Shugart than on the half-height QumeTrack I was using. Cleaning the heads on a full-height Qume DT-8 is pretty much impossible because of the plastic shroud around the head assembly. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 21 15:27:30 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:27:30 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <50D4CFC8.9010300@bitsavers.org> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4BF5D.2060701@sydex.com> <50D4CFC8.9010300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50D4D442.1000708@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/12 1:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > AHA-1522 with 8477A 8473A From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 16:31:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:31:47 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <1356122197.98268.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4C29F.2040701@sydex.com> <1356122197.98268.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D4E353.9080107@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 12:36 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> does the early Option Board work w/single sided drives? > > > I don't see why it wouldn't. > > --Chuck > > C: My concern was that it might return an error upon trying to > access the 2nd head. But IBM used ss media in the early days so I guess as you say there shouldn't be a problem. Brain fart here--it didn't register that you said "early Option Board". I seem to recall that those weren't capable of 500Kbps operation. Maybe someone remembers. The Deluxe Option Board definitely can, as can all models of the Catweasel that I'm aware of. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Fri Dec 21 16:32:43 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 16:32:43 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121221223243.GN12311@n0jcf.net> On Friday (12/21/2012 at 02:28PM -0600), Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: > >On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>On 12/20/2012 09:26 PM, geneb wrote: > >> > >>>Ahh, ok. I was expecting a different style drive. > >> > >>Anything special? > > > >Not really. Most of the Compaq desktop machines I've seen use > >drives with no faceplate because the face is part of the front of > >the case. > > I've yet to see one of these Samsung drives that has the options > required for the disk change signal and that can be configured to > disable high density (1.44MB) mode to force the drive into double > density (720K) only mode. I guess these are like the Teac drives in > that they made dozens, if not hundreds of different revisions/models > of these drives. I developed a hard-sector emulator for the Heath/Zenith H-8 and H-89 platforms that used 720K, 3.5" media and emulated the 10-hole hard sectored 5.25" media with a small micro. Three years ago, I could find new Sony 3.5" drives that had the 720/1.44 media detection hardware (opto detector and additional logic) and used these drives successfully in 720K mode (300 RPM, 250 Kbps MFM). Two years ago, I found it impossible to find 3.5" drives that still had that media detection electronics. There were all jammed at 1.44 and the detector and everything else was never installed. I'm quite sure we got in on the tail end of the 3.5" drive life cycle :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 16:35:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:35:26 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D4E42E.3070201@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 12:28 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > I've yet to see one of these Samsung drives that has the options > required for the disk change signal and that can be configured to > disable high density (1.44MB) mode to force the drive into double > density (720K) only mode. I guess these are like the Teac drives in that > they made dozens, if not hundreds of different revisions/models of these > drives. I've shipped several to customers with old CNC gear that use the PC98 convention of pin 34 = READY, pin 2 = DISK CHANGED and pin 4 = IN USE. You need a couple of cm of wire for the pin 2 disk change, but the mod is very obvious. The 720K thing hasn't come up yet, as all of the drives that I've sent out have been for PC98-style controllers which don't use 2D media, so I haven't bothered to check. In fact, I don't know if the sensor's optical or mechanical. In either case, the remedy is obvious. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 16:37:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:37:21 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <50D4D442.1000708@bitsavers.org> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4BF5D.2060701@sydex.com> <50D4CFC8.9010300@bitsavers.org> <50D4D442.1000708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50D4E4A1.5070402@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 01:27 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/21/12 1:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> AHA-1522 with 8477A > 8473A That also goes for a fair number of Future Domain and DTC SCSI-with-floppy support. In fact, it's quite easy to add a couple of wires to support 3 floppy drives off a single cable. On slower machines, the Tulin driver works for DOS access on the third drive. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Fri Dec 21 16:37:25 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 16:37:25 -0600 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: References: <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121221223725.GO12311@n0jcf.net> On Friday (12/21/2012 at 11:43AM -0800), geneb wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >On 12/21/2012 10:35 AM, geneb wrote: > > > >>I'd like to build a little adapter board that has all the line tweaks > >>needed to use a 3.5" drive with 720k media in older CP/M machines. A > >>few option jumpers and you wouldn't have to hack cables any longer. :) > > >I guess one serious question is "Do you want to have the drive be > >insensitive to the media-type hole in 3.5" disks?" While many > >people do use 3.5" DSHD floppies with the hole taped over for 720K > >use, I do question the advisability of this, particularly given > >the terrible quality of late-manufacture DSHD 3.5" floppies. > > > I'd go straight to Athana. They still make/stock 720k media. I've also obtained a large qty of 720K media from these guys, http://www.floppydisk.com/buy.htm -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 17:35:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:35:08 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <001101cddfbc$7f2d8df0$7d88a9d0$@com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> <001101cddfbc$7f2d8df0$7d88a9d0$@com> Message-ID: <50D4F22C.3050107@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 12:48 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > A caution for USB flash drives, they are VERY static sensitive, and there is > no way to write protect most of them. > Many govt and high security companies have banned them because on most of > them you can't password protect the entire drive, like you could a floppy. > Yes, you can still encrypt individual files, but that does not meet their > requirements. Sure Cindy, even PROM can be damaged by ESD, but it's one heckuva lot easier to back up a USB pen drive that holds 100, a 1000, or 10,000 floppy images than it is to back up floppies individually. A megabyte just isn't what it used to be. Anent this, does anyone know of any USB FRAM/MRAM devices? Seems as if that would be a natural. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 19:13:06 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 01:13:06 +0000 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Backing up a usb device sure but as Cindy pointed out its likely a poor backup media itself. Some friends and I all had 64mb flash drives back when they were new. We all lost our copies of some source code we had been using it for (portable coding drive so we could use each others systems and have our progress). Left a sore spot despite them being nice for quick trips or transferring files. From molists at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 19:20:45 2012 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:20:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Very interesting PET.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356139245.89607.YahooMailNeo@web122106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My father used to rant about the miracle of the Commodore Pet, though he failed to buy me one. :-( He claimed that at the defense plant where he designed secret stuff, some engineers would buy them with petty cash to tinker with, because they cost much less than an HPIB card. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 19:30:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 In-Reply-To: <50D4E353.9080107@sydex.com> References: <1356117796.40167.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356118961.60131.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4C29F.2040701@sydex.com> <1356122197.98268.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D4E353.9080107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121221172628.J84182@shell.lmi.net> > >> does the early Option Board work w/single sided drives? On Fri, 21 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > C: My concern was that it might return an error upon trying to > > access > the 2nd head. But IBM used ss media in the early days so I guess as you > say there shouldn't be a problem. 2nd head will be no problem. Option board "TE" program can do either side of 360K disks. BUT, will you have an index pulse? NOT present with other side of "NIBBLE NOTCH" disks, which is why you need to ALSO do index hole access, and/or NOT present for double sided disks in a single sided 8" drive, and/or NOT present with single sided disks in a double-side-ONLY drive. that d > Brain fart here--it didn't register that you said "early Option Board". > I seem to recall that those weren't capable of 500Kbps operation. > Maybe someone remembers. That's what I found, but Central Point would not state so. It should, however work great with FM 8" From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 21 19:44:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:44:42 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> On 12/21/2012 05:13 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Backing up a usb device sure but as Cindy pointed out its likely a > poor backup media itself. Some friends and I all had 64mb flash > drives back when they were new. We all lost our copies of some source > code we had been using it for (portable coding drive so we could use > each others systems and have our progress). Left a sore spot despite > them being nice for quick trips or transferring files. I'm still using my 256 and 512MB flash drives. But you have a point; the consumer flash USB drives are not known for their robustness. When customers ask to have data returned on USB flash, I balk a bit, and insist on sending along a CD or DVD with the flash--and then hang onto the data for at least 30 days. Just like floppies, storage environment and handling means a lot. If you're used to carrying a USB drive around in your pocket along with your keys, you should probably have a backup of that data somewhere. I mostly find pen drives useful for sneakernet and substitutes for CD ROMs on systems that lack drives. A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash: http://www.supertalent.com/datasheets/SLC_vs_MLC%20whitepaper.pdf Speaking for myself, I have data backed up in several places, one of them being off-site in a vault, against the day that we have a sudden 300m rise in sea level. :) --Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Dec 21 20:11:57 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:11:57 +0100 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <001101cddfbc$7f2d8df0$7d88a9d0$@com> References: <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> <001101cddfbc$7f2d8df0$7d88a9d0$@com> Message-ID: <20121222021157.GA11372@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 02:48:14PM -0600, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > A caution for USB flash drives, they are VERY static sensitive, and there is > no way to write protect most of them. > Many govt and high security companies have banned them because on most of > them you can't password protect the entire drive, like you could a floppy. > Yes, you can still encrypt individual files, but that does not meet their > requirements. Hmm? Of course you can encrypt the entire device. It is rather simple these days to do so. And it really doesn't matter if the device is a HDD, SSD, USB stick, floppy, ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Dec 22 02:17:29 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 09:17:29 +0100 Subject: Change of Topic [Was: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics] In-Reply-To: <50D4F22C.3050107@sydex.com> References: <008601cdc82c$37f82d20$a7e88760$@com> <00ad01cdde19$c130c540$43924fc0$@com> <20121219130323.J40458@shell.lmi.net> <20121219151359.W40458@shell.lmi.net> <50D394B9.6020105@sydex.com> <50D3A695.5080202@sydex.com> <50D3E422.3040008@sydex.com> <50D405A0.7020207@sydex.com> <50D49ED7.4010202@sydex.com> <50D4B3F9.7060007@sydex.com> <50D4C41D.60202@sydex.com> <001101cddfbc$7f2d8df0$7d88a9d0$@com> <50D4F22C.3050107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D56C99.9080707@update.uu.se> On 12/22/2012 12:35 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Sure Cindy, even PROM can be damaged by ESD, but it's one heckuva lot > easier to back up a USB pen drive that holds 100, a 1000, or 10,000 > floppy images than it is to back up floppies individually. > > A megabyte just isn't what it used to be. > > Anent this, does anyone know of any USB FRAM/MRAM devices? Seems as > if that would be a natural. > > --Chuck > Oh, please please please, with sugar on top. Change the topic! I'm getting my hope up for more drooly warehouse pics all the time. (Not particularly aimed at you Chuck, you mail was just the last one of the herd) /P From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 22 03:04:00 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:04:00 +0100 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:44:42 -0800 Chuck Guzis wrote: > A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash: It gets even worse with TLC flash. This is getting increasingly common in Micro-SD cards and miniature USB drives. We are down to 1000 write cycles and a data retention time of 6 months. Flash media is getting as unreliable and thus unusable as late 90s 3.5" floppies... :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 22 07:03:21 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 13:03:21 -0000 Subject: Booting a Micro PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <007e01cde044$b9aa0de0$2cfe29a0$@ntlworld.com> A little while ago I acquired a Micro PDP 11/73. It contains 2 DEQNA cards and an Emulex CU02. I am not sure what the CU02 is, but think it is some kind of disk controller, possibly SCSI, if someone knows what it is and can point me to a manual let me know. The automatic boot is setup to boot from the DEQNA cards, however I have no idea how to set up a boot node and I am not sure what OSs the 11/73 supports. I would be happy to run RSX-11M or RSTS, I have a SIMH emulation running RSX-11M, so perhaps that can be set up as a boot node? I also have a VMS boot node, but I have no idea if I can get that to boot a PDP11. If I have to I could probably make a TK50 or TK70 tape with boot media, and I probably have the means to get an RQDX3 with a disk installed, unless I can use the CU02? In the first instance I would like to avoid this route though because I just want to verify that the machine basically works. Any suggestions? Thanks Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 22 07:34:59 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 13:34:59 +0000 Subject: Booting a Micro PDP 11/73 In-Reply-To: <007e01cde044$b9aa0de0$2cfe29a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007e01cde044$b9aa0de0$2cfe29a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50D5B703.7040802@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/12/2012 13:03, Rob Jarratt wrote: > A little while ago I acquired a Micro PDP 11/73. It contains 2 DEQNA cards > and an Emulex CU02. I am not sure what the CU02 is, but think it is some > kind of disk controller, possibly SCSI, if someone knows what it is and can > point me to a manual let me know. It's a CS02 serial controller, which IIRC is a 16-line multiplexer that emulates a DHV11. There should be a longer number beginning CU.... or CS.... on a 40-pin chip that'll confirm the exact type. I assume you don't have the cables and panels for it? You'll find the manuals on bitsavers at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/ A UC02 would be a disk controller. Or an SC02 or SC03; there are several variants of these emulating various DEC systems with SMD drives, and QD33 using MSCP for SMD drives, and QD01, QD21 for ST412/EDSI drives. > The automatic boot is setup to boot from the DEQNA cards, however I have no > idea how to set up a boot node Neither have I. IMO you'd be much better off with an RQDX3 and a hard drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 22 08:33:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 09:33:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Neo-paganism [was Re: older Yamaha keyboards] In-Reply-To: <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201212221433.JAA23967@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I once told someone I was neo-pagan and got asked in response "so, >> you're, like, a Satanist?".? I said, "No, I'm not Christian enough >> to be a Satanist".? I expected that to produce further confusion, >> which it did. :-/ > C: Well utter nonsense usually does have that affect. You're point I'll take$ You can take it any way you please, of course. But yes, my point (which I then proceeded to explain, in the case I outlined) was that Satan is an entity from Christian, or at the very least Abrahamic, religious cosmology, and I am sufficiently non-Christian (and, indeed, non-Abrahamic) that Satan is not an entity with any meaning to me (beyond, of course, the intellectual "this is something that has reality to others" sense that anything from someone else's religion is accorded). > But conflating Christianity w/Satanism leaves something to be desired > as to valid logic. Eh. I hardly conflate the two. But it's a little like asking me whether I write "standardize" or "standardise" and my replying that I don't write English at all: it's presuming a separation which exists only within a framework which has no particular meaning for me. Or like a Hindu, upon hearing that you're Christian, ask if that means you worship (say) Shiva. (The latter analogy is a poor one, since Shiva is not the sort of personification of evil within Hinduism that Satan is within Christianity, but it may give you somewhat of an idea of how the question struck me.) > The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. Speaking of "the pagans" makes about as much sense as speaking of "the Christians" - perhaps even less. That aside, I'm not sure what you think this is "a result" of. > I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of > the early forms of paganism, Indeed, you did. > stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from > (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to > suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general don't have particularly clean hands themselves. Nor are they immune to altering their beliefs (or at least their dogma, their professed beliefs) to suit the times. But yes, it is nice. That's one reason we do it, one reason we do not slavishly follow beliefs and practices better suited to other times and places: the results are much nicer that way. (Another is that most of the neo-pagan ways are antagonistic, almsot, to dogma. I was once asked by a prosletyzer "don't you think it appropriate to invite others to believe as you do?" and I replied, approximately, "no; I would rather you seek within yourself and believe as you find appropriate for you, even if it's different from my way, than that you follow some dogma, even if that dogma would lead you to something like my way.") >?I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. Indeed. So are some Christians. And Jews. And Moslems. And atheists. And... > She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who > is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. > You ask her). Eh. If I had a way to contact her, I might be curious enough to bother, or I might not. Whether Squat is real for her has no particular bearing on whether Squat is real for me. I do, however, wonder why you're citing the opinions and perceptions of someone "bat crap crazy" as if they were relevant to the discussion. > So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She > stated to the effect that all those old world gods were > manifestations/representations of "the Divine". Not a terribly uncommon point of view, and not too far from my own: the various deities that have reality for me are what the Divine looks like when looked at from my point of view. This has little-to-nothing to do with what it looks like when looked at from some other point of view. > So why aren't they all just manifestations of ol' Beelzebub I ask? Because Beelzebub - to the extent that the name names anything at all - names a relatively specific manifestation of the Divine, one which has little-to-no reality for your acquaintance. > What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Indeed, though I don't see the proverb as being applicable here. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From db at db.net Sat Dec 22 09:12:22 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:12:22 -0500 Subject: Neo-paganism [was Re: older Yamaha keyboards] In-Reply-To: <201212221433.JAA23967@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212221433.JAA23967@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121222151222.GB75145@night.db.net> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 09:33:59AM -0500, Mouse wrote: ... > > The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. > > Speaking of "the pagans" makes about as much sense as speaking of "the > Christians" - perhaps even less. That aside, I'm not sure what you > think this is "a result" of. I am not sure that this discussion belongs on this list at all. However I might point out that the term 'pagan' was originally applied to Xtians since they did not believe in the Roman gods. > > I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of > > the early forms of paganism, > > Indeed, you did. The early Xtians were guilty of genocide, slavery and rape. And let's not mention the barbaic practices of today's Xtians. That would be a tu quoque after all. Let me know when Xtians stop killing doctors, stop screwing little boys, stop encouraging genocide in Africa ok? I would suggest this is a bad way to claim any sort of moral superiority due to your religion. > > > stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from > > (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to > > suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. > > Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general don't have particularly > clean hands themselves. Nor are they immune to altering their beliefs > (or at least their dogma, their professed beliefs) to suit the times. Exactly. > >?I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. > > Indeed. So are some Christians. And Jews. And Moslems. And > atheists. And... > > > She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who > > is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. > > You ask her). > > Eh. If I had a way to contact her, I might be curious enough to > bother, or I might not. Whether Squat is real for her has no > particular bearing on whether Squat is real for me. Yes talking to snakes is completely and utterly normal. Gotcha. Kettle pot. > > I do, however, wonder why you're citing the opinions and perceptions of > someone "bat crap crazy" as if they were relevant to the discussion. > > > So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She > > stated to the effect that all those old world gods were > > manifestations/representations of "the Divine". > > Not a terribly uncommon point of view, and not too far from my own: the > various deities that have reality for me are what the Divine looks like > when looked at from my point of view. This has little-to-nothing to do > with what it looks like when looked at from some other point of view. >From my point of view, there are no such entities as I am an atheist. There are also neopagans who also happen to be atheist. Yes this is possible. > > Indeed, though I don't see the proverb as being applicable here. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I'm going to leave off here with a request to all of you to take religion off of here as it is a personal matter. Religion is like bad breath, I don't care if you have it just keep it away from me. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 10:22:25 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:22:25 +0000 Subject: Neo-paganism [was Re: older Yamaha keyboards] In-Reply-To: <20121222151222.GB75145@night.db.net> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212221433.JAA23967@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121222151222.GB75145@night.db.net> Message-ID: <1968214393-1356193342-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-42766748-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> "Religion is like bad breath, I don't care if you have it just keep it away from me." Lol. love it. Agreed and likely popular demand not to squabble over personal, or ancient beliefs here. Long as you're happy with whatever then it serves you well. -----Original Message----- From: Diane Bruce Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:12:22 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Neo-paganism [was Re: older Yamaha keyboards] On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 09:33:59AM -0500, Mouse wrote: ... > > The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. > > Speaking of "the pagans" makes about as much sense as speaking of "the > Christians" - perhaps even less. That aside, I'm not sure what you > think this is "a result" of. I am not sure that this discussion belongs on this list at all. However I might point out that the term 'pagan' was originally applied to Xtians since they did not believe in the Roman gods. > > I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of > > the early forms of paganism, > > Indeed, you did. The early Xtians were guilty of genocide, slavery and rape. And let's not mention the barbaic practices of today's Xtians. That would be a tu quoque after all. Let me know when Xtians stop killing doctors, stop screwing little boys, stop encouraging genocide in Africa ok? I would suggest this is a bad way to claim any sort of moral superiority due to your religion. > > > stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from > > (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to > > suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. > > Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general don't have particularly > clean hands themselves. Nor are they immune to altering their beliefs > (or at least their dogma, their professed beliefs) to suit the times. Exactly. > >?I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. > > Indeed. So are some Christians. And Jews. And Moslems. And > atheists. And... > > > She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who > > is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. > > You ask her). > > Eh. If I had a way to contact her, I might be curious enough to > bother, or I might not. Whether Squat is real for her has no > particular bearing on whether Squat is real for me. Yes talking to snakes is completely and utterly normal. Gotcha. Kettle pot. > > I do, however, wonder why you're citing the opinions and perceptions of > someone "bat crap crazy" as if they were relevant to the discussion. > > > So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She > > stated to the effect that all those old world gods were > > manifestations/representations of "the Divine". > > Not a terribly uncommon point of view, and not too far from my own: the > various deities that have reality for me are what the Divine looks like > when looked at from my point of view. This has little-to-nothing to do > with what it looks like when looked at from some other point of view. >From my point of view, there are no such entities as I am an atheist. There are also neopagans who also happen to be atheist. Yes this is possible. > > Indeed, though I don't see the proverb as being applicable here. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I'm going to leave off here with a request to all of you to take religion off of here as it is a personal matter. Religion is like bad breath, I don't care if you have it just keep it away from me. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Dec 22 10:45:10 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 08:45:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neo-paganism [was Re: older Yamaha keyboards] In-Reply-To: <201212221433.JAA23967@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Dec 22, 12 09:33:59 am" Message-ID: <201212221645.qBMGjAKB31195258@floodgap.com> I'm glad this thread has a proper subject line. *filter -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to not finish sentences, but now I ---------------------------------- From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 11:42:20 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 09:42:20 -0800 Subject: IBM Card Sorter, Reader, and much more in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> Ran across this on craigslist. Some really cool stuff. Too far for me. Is this a a fellow list member? If not sounds like he should be from the linked website. If you are and read this hope you don't mind the posting. http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/sys/3494240579.html Here's the website http://www.gold-snipper.com and here are the computers http://www.gold-snipper.com/tjo/vintagecomputers/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 11:43:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 09:43:05 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 01:04 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:44:42 -0800 > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash: > It gets even worse with TLC flash. This is getting increasingly common > in Micro-SD cards and miniature USB drives. We are down to 1000 write > cycles and a data retention time of 6 months. Flash media is getting as > unreliable and thus unusable as late 90s 3.5" floppies... :-( That is VERY true. Consumer-level stuff seems to be "maximum bits/Hz for the money, reliability be damned". Anyone who has any doubts should price SLC media against MLC/TLC stuff. Of course, the public isn't taught much about this at all. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 22 11:53:48 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 12:53:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <35c2.67b7d923.3e074dac@aol.com> what about using SD cards? someone told me the innards were better than the ones they use in USB drives and other have told me there is not much difference? Thanks Ed # _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/22/2012 9:51:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Message: 14 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:44:42 -0800 From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <50D5108A.9090001 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 12/21/2012 05:13 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Backing up a usb device sure but as Cindy pointed out its likely a > poor backup media itself. Some friends and I all had 64mb flash > drives back when they were new. We all lost our copies of some source > code we had been using it for (portable coding drive so we could use > each others systems and have our progress). Left a sore spot despite > them being nice for quick trips or transferring files. I'm still using my 256 and 512MB flash drives. But you have a point; the consumer flash USB drives are not known for their robustness. When customers ask to have data returned on USB flash, I balk a bit, and insist on sending along a CD or DVD with the flash--and then hang onto the data for at least 30 days. Just like floppies, storage environment and handling means a lot. If you're used to carrying a USB drive around in your pocket along with your keys, you should probably have a backup of that data somewhere. I mostly find pen drives useful for sneakernet and substitutes for CD ROMs on systems that lack drives. A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash: http://www.supertalent.com/datasheets/SLC_vs_MLC%20whitepaper.pdf Speaking for myself, I have data backed up in several places, one of them being off-site in a vault, against the day that we have a sudden 300m rise in sea level. :) --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:00:14 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 13:00:14 -0500 Subject: IBM Card Sorter, Reader, and much more in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Ran across this on craigslist. Some really cool stuff. Too far for me. Is > this a a fellow list member? If not sounds like he should be from the > linked website. If you are and read this hope you don't mind the posting. His prices are...high. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:09:23 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:09:23 -0800 Subject: IBM Card Sorter, Reader, and much more in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2012 9:45 AM, "mc68010" wrote: > > Ran across this on craigslist. Some really cool stuff. Too far for me. Is this a a fellow list member? If not sounds like he should be from the linked website. If you are and read this hope you don't mind the posting. > > http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/sys/3494240579.html > > Here's the website http://www.gold-snipper.com and here are the computers http://www.gold-snipper.com/tjo/vintagecomputers/ I haven't noticed any eBay activity from that dealer in years. I thought he might have gotten out of the business. I have an HP 1000 2117F that was lacking an FPP box and I bought one from him in person at his Portland warehouse years ago. The place was full of interesting stuff. -Glen From wheagy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:11:04 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 13:11:04 -0500 Subject: Practical Peripherals ProClock software? Message-ID: Hi, I have a Practical Peripherals ProClock for my Apple IIe. It has everything in the box, but I seem to be unable to read the software utilities disk. Can anyone point me to the software online or possibly send me a zipped image? I googled and cannot find anything. Thanks, Win wheagy at gmail.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:20:43 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:20:43 -0800 Subject: IBM Card Sorter, Reader, and much more in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50D5F9FB.3080603@gmail.com> On 12/22/2012 10:00 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Ran across this on craigslist. Some really cool stuff. Too far for me. Is >> this a a fellow list member? If not sounds like he should be from the >> linked website. If you are and read this hope you don't mind the posting. > His prices are...high. > > -- > Will The ebay side of things seems to be dead. Maybe he, or a family member, is just dumping the stuff now. Portland Craigslist is probably not the best place for making money on card readers. Bongs and used bicycles maybe. Who knows though. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:32:19 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:32:19 -0800 Subject: IBM Card Sorter, Reader, and much more in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: <50D5F9FB.3080603@gmail.com> References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> <50D5F9FB.3080603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2012 10:26 AM, "mc68010" wrote: > > The ebay side of things seems to be dead. Maybe he, or a family member, is just dumping the stuff now. Portland Craigslist is probably not the best place for making money on card readers. Bongs and used bicycles maybe. Who knows though. Maybe someone different is selling this stuff now. It's also listed on eBay. Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190774217184 From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 22 12:34:00 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:34:00 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 Progress Message-ID: <2A5B1421-719C-483C-B86D-B146BF3CADDE@shiresoft.com> I had some time last night so I spent several hours digging through documentation and sitting at the console to see if I couldn't make some progress. First of all, I figured out how to obtain the ethernet MAC address: show ethernet-address What I had to figure out that I had to be at the FEP (Front End Processor) prompt and not the LISP listener since that command is an FEP command. So now my home network is configured for when I get the Symbolics configured enough to enable TCP/IP (or as Symbolics names it IP-TCP). I also discovered (shouldn't be that big a surprise) that Genera doesn't really use configuration files. Everything is stored in the running LISP state. One thing that has to be remembered is that the entire LISP state needs to be saved when making configuration level changes (or installing new software). Just because it's on disk doesn't mean it can be used. I'm going to see if I can't get a bit further today. TTFN - Guy From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 12:36:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:36:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neo-paganism [was Re: older Yamaha keyboards] In-Reply-To: <1968214393-1356193342-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-42766748-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212221433.JAA23967@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121222151222.GB75145@night.db.net> <1968214393-1356193342-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-42766748-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1356201414.1924.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am not sure that this discussion belongs on this list at all. However I might point out that the term 'pagan' was originally applied to Xtians since they did not believe in the Roman gods. C: Actually the early (early 4th century) Christians were designated atheists. > > I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of > > the early forms of paganism, > > Indeed, you did. The early Xtians were guilty of genocide, slavery and rape. And let's not mention the barbaic practices of today's Xtians. That would be a tu quoque after all. Let me know when Xtians stop killing doctors, stop screwing little boys, stop encouraging genocide in Africa ok? C: I'm not looking to belabor any of these points here. I was merely differentiating between creeds. There is no part of the Apostolic creed that calls for any of those things you mentioned. Many pagans though *were* called upon to commit numerous atrocities. That "Christians" fail to commit to their creed is owing to their humanity, not the creed itself. I would suggest this is a bad way to claim any sort of moral superiority due to your religion. C: I claim to aspire to moral superiority, because I think Christianity is superior to all of the primitive religions. That is all. > > stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from > > (hence the neo-).? It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to > > suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. > > Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general don't have particularly > clean hands themselves.? Nor are they immune to altering their beliefs > (or at least their dogma, their professed beliefs) to suit the times. Exactly. C: Of course I separate myself from those of any stripe that commit atrocities. Is that a bad thing? Should I join in??? ?The point is contained in the tenets of Christianity are those yucky things like brotherly love, even loving your enemies, but I suggest anyone should exercise a little discernment w/that. > >?I know a pagan lady.? Bat crap crazy she is. > > Indeed.? So are some Christians.? And Jews.? And Moslems.? And > atheists.? And... > > > She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who > > is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. > > You ask her). > > Eh.? If I had a way to contact her, I might be curious enough to > bother, or I might not.? Whether Squat is real for her has no > particular bearing on whether Squat is real for me. Yes talking to snakes is completely and utterly normal. Gotcha. Kettle pot. ?C: I've never talked to a snake. I do very often talk to my cat though. I've had a few birds attempt to engage me in conversation though. > I do, however, wonder why you're citing the opinions and perceptions of > someone "bat crap crazy" as if they were relevant to the discussion. > > > So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*.? She > > stated to the effect that all those old world gods were > > manifestations/representations of "the Divine". > > Not a terribly uncommon point of view, and not too far from my own: the > various deities that have reality for me are what the Divine looks like > when looked at from my point of view.? This has little-to-nothing to do > with what it looks like when looked at from some other point of view. From my point of view, there are no such entities as I am an atheist. There are also neopagans who also happen to be atheist. Yes this is possible. C: And words tend to lose every bit of their meaning in this modern culture. ?? Not even atheists are atheists anymore. Unless they're a perfect "10". Know any? I don't. ?Ok I'm done. I just want the opportunity to respond to what's left in my inbox as of 1:35 pm EST. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 12:55:49 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:55:49 -0800 Subject: IBM Card Sorter, Reader, and much more in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: References: <20121214071325.GB84350@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214093727.GA30543@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121214193629.GC57213@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CB8EFC.6000503@neurotica.com> <20121214212524.GA89954@beast.freibergnet.de> <50CBAE52.3000708@neurotica.com> <20121215115339.GA60883@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215133853.GA78851@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215135522.GA89334@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215165907.GA5591@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121215182911.ae225ec445c2e943a11c015f@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1355676396.84222.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D5F0FC.60708@gmail.com> <50D5F9FB.3080603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50D60235.4020500@gmail.com> On 12/22/2012 10:32 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Dec 22, 2012 10:26 AM, "mc68010" wrote: >> The ebay side of things seems to be dead. Maybe he, or a family member, > is just dumping the stuff now. Portland Craigslist is probably not the > best place for making money on card readers. Bongs and used bicycles maybe. > Who knows though. > > Maybe someone different is selling this stuff now. It's also listed on eBay. > > Example: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190774217184 Ahh I see. Does look like same stuff, same place but, maybe a different person.Oh well, nothing to see here carry on. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 22 13:09:59 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:09:59 -0500 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> On 12/22/2012 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash: >> It gets even worse with TLC flash. This is getting increasingly common >> in Micro-SD cards and miniature USB drives. We are down to 1000 write >> cycles and a data retention time of 6 months. Flash media is getting as >> unreliable and thus unusable as late 90s 3.5" floppies... :-( > > That is VERY true. Consumer-level stuff seems to be "maximum bits/Hz > for the money, reliability be damned". Anyone who has any doubts should > price SLC media against MLC/TLC stuff. Of course, the public isn't > taught much about this at all. Yes. And when it fails, "Oh, I'll just go buy another one." The training is -perfect-. And when you get on someone's case about it, they usually say something like "Well I didn't know!!" ...as if accusing YOU of doing something bad by informing them of it. The public is seriously fucked, and they seem to be pretty happy about it. So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Dec 22 13:29:25 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:29:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 22, 12 02:09:59 pm" Message-ID: <201212221929.qBMJTPWR30015494@floodgap.com> > So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I > don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups > of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection. People look at me like I have two heads for still buying spinning disks, but under high activity I expect more life from the spinning disk, assuming it is well-cared-for, than the solid-state flash one (wear leveling). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- armadillo, n. the act of providing weapons to a Spanish pickle. ------------ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 13:34:45 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:34:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire ? So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives?? I don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection. C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what they want. Much of the data (a bloody huge amount) being shifted around is eminently replaceable. The latest version of Spiderman can hardly be considered mission critical. And yes floppies back in the day were highly reliable and bloody amazing (I personally don't get as much use as others, but I have seen some that maintain their data for 20+ years, then crap out), back when no one would ever need more then 640k of ram. ?It stinks being in the minority I know. But those with the inclination can offer their own solutions to such problems. It's called collaboration. Just look at what some people do in isolation. Until then use cds (preferably old stock?). ?There was also that optical glass element that Hitachi IIRC was developing. Maybe you all can lean on them a bit. ?Why doesn't someone take apart some older and newer flash drives and see exactly what is the problem. ?Remember the Sony Mavica digicams, the earliest used a 3.5" floppy drive LOL. The newer a full sized cd iirc. Despite people's attempts to get mondo huge bucks for them, they're still had pretty reasonably. I suggest you get a gaggle of the cd version Dave. You can photograph everything like me and store it reliably on cd LOL LOL LOL. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 22 13:36:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:36:09 -0500 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <201212221929.qBMJTPWR30015494@floodgap.com> References: <201212221929.qBMJTPWR30015494@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50D60BA9.8090809@neurotica.com> On 12/22/2012 02:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I >> don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups >> of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection. > > People look at me like I have two heads for still buying spinning disks, but > under high activity I expect more life from the spinning disk, assuming it > is well-cared-for, than the solid-state flash one (wear leveling). Yup. The world is full of stupid people. I really don't have much of a problem with that. They annoy me, but I can deal with them. What I have a problem with is people who are BLISSFULLY stupid, and think that anyone with more knowledge than they have is crazy or wrong, like the "looking at you like you have two heads" issue you mentioned. Dumbasses. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 13:39:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:39:59 -0800 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D60C8F.20300@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 11:09 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I > don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups > of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection. Apacer is a maker of industrial SLC flash pen drives. You can get them through Mouser and other dealers. Just check the specs, as Apacer also offers MLC drives. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 22 13:41:42 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:41:42 -0500 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> On 12/22/2012 02:34 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I > don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small > groups of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire > movie collection. > > C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what > they want. One could. But the problem here is that the consumers are too clueless to know what they NEED, and in the Wal*Mart Nation, "cheaper is better", even when it isn't, and the industry is all too willing to oblige. This is not a good thing overall. > Much of the data (a bloody huge amount) being shifted > around is eminently replaceable. The latest version of Spiderman can > hardly be considered mission critical. Sure, but photos of Baby are what inevitably gets lost when people do stupid things and use shit equipment. And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 22 13:50:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:50:10 -0500 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D60C8F.20300@sydex.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <50D60C8F.20300@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D60EF2.1020704@neurotica.com> On 12/22/2012 02:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I >> don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups >> of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie >> collection. > > Apacer is a maker of industrial SLC flash pen drives. You can get them > through Mouser and other dealers. Just check the specs, as Apacer also > offers MLC drives. Oh, nice! Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 13:51:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:51:40 -0800 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <201212221929.qBMJTPWR30015494@floodgap.com> References: <201212221929.qBMJTPWR30015494@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50D60F4C.8090107@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 11:29 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > People look at me like I have two heads for still buying spinning disks, but > under high activity I expect more life from the spinning disk, assuming it > is well-cared-for, than the solid-state flash one (wear leveling). I've been running my Linux mailserver/firewall for at least 4 years 24/7 using a Seagate 5GB microdrive. No issues whatsoever. I'd have second thoughts about using a traditional flash CF in its place. The interesting aspect is that those things are equipped with SMART technology, which surprised me. --Chuck From wgungfu at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 03:07:09 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:07:09 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? Message-ID: Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing of hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the PDP-1 during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was just a port of the PDP-6 version). Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything other than DEC hardware in the 60s. Thanks! -- Marty From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 14:18:03 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:18:03 -0500 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I > haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything > other than DEC hardware in the 60s. According to wiki entry for Edson Hendricks, it was ported to the IBM 2250. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 14:31:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 12:31:12 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <35c2.67b7d923.3e074dac@aol.com> References: <35c2.67b7d923.3e074dac@aol.com> Message-ID: <50D61890.2060502@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 09:53 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > what about using SD cards? someone told me the innards were > better than the ones they use in USB drives and other have told me there is not > much difference? You can get SLC SD cards; they're not cheap (just like the SLC USB flash drives). I've heard, but cannot confirm, that the SD cards don't have the same quality of firmware used for wear-leveling that USB pen drives do. I have no idea how true this is. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 22 15:16:20 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:16:20 -0700 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D62324.30303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/22/2012 12:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sure, but photos of Baby are what inevitably gets lost when people do > stupid things and use shit equipment. > > And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time. Why worry ... Easy to have more babies. :) > -Dave > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 15:59:31 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:59:31 -0500 Subject: Symbolics 3620 Progress In-Reply-To: <2A5B1421-719C-483C-B86D-B146BF3CADDE@shiresoft.com> References: <2A5B1421-719C-483C-B86D-B146BF3CADDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4BFF80BC-EDD8-43D4-98FB-3CFE3D6F5A7C@gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I had some time last night so I spent several hours digging through documentation and sitting at > the console to see if I couldn't make some progress. > > First of all, I figured out how to obtain the ethernet MAC address: > show ethernet-address > > What I had to figure out that I had to be at the FEP (Front End Processor) prompt and not the > LISP listener since that command is an FEP command. So now my home network is configured > for when I get the Symbolics configured enough to enable TCP/IP (or as Symbolics names it > IP-TCP). Cool! Glad you worked it out. > > I also discovered (shouldn't be that big a surprise) that Genera doesn't really use configuration > files. Everything is stored in the running LISP state. One thing that has to be remembered is > that the entire LISP state needs to be saved when making configuration level changes (or > installing new software). Just because it's on disk doesn't mean it can be used. > This is generally true, yes. Changes to the namespace are stored in the LMFS but most overall OS configuration changes and software installation requires saving the world as well. You are in a sense modifying a very large LISP program, as it's running :). (If you make enough changes, you may also want to Optimize World as well, to reduce the size of the loaded world.) I remembered another fairly useful reference once you get everything up and running to your liking: "Lisp Lore: A Guide to programming the Lisp Machine" (http://archive.org/details/lisploreguidetop00brom) It's a pretty brisk read and it'll walk you through the day-to-day of usage, development, debugging, etc. > I'm going to see if I can't get a bit further today. > Best of luck! - Josh > TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 22 16:19:12 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:19:12 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 3620 Progress In-Reply-To: <4BFF80BC-EDD8-43D4-98FB-3CFE3D6F5A7C@gmail.com> References: <2A5B1421-719C-483C-B86D-B146BF3CADDE@shiresoft.com> <4BFF80BC-EDD8-43D4-98FB-3CFE3D6F5A7C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31DFD580-4598-4154-AC3F-CCE1D99DFF33@shiresoft.com> On Dec 22, 2012, at 1:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Dec 22, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> I had some time last night so I spent several hours digging through documentation and sitting at >> the console to see if I couldn't make some progress. >> >> First of all, I figured out how to obtain the ethernet MAC address: >> show ethernet-address >> >> What I had to figure out that I had to be at the FEP (Front End Processor) prompt and not the >> LISP listener since that command is an FEP command. So now my home network is configured >> for when I get the Symbolics configured enough to enable TCP/IP (or as Symbolics names it >> IP-TCP). > > Cool! Glad you worked it out. Me too. It's mainly learning an entirely new environment with just manuals. Usually, they (the manuals) seem to have the assumption that you've either done this before or there's someone who's knowledgable of the whole thing that can help out. ;-) > >> >> I also discovered (shouldn't be that big a surprise) that Genera doesn't really use configuration >> files. Everything is stored in the running LISP state. One thing that has to be remembered is >> that the entire LISP state needs to be saved when making configuration level changes (or >> installing new software). Just because it's on disk doesn't mean it can be used. >> > > This is generally true, yes. Changes to the namespace are stored in the LMFS but most overall OS configuration changes and software installation requires saving the world as well. You are in a sense modifying a very large LISP program, as it's running :). (If you make enough changes, you may also want to Optimize World as well, to reduce the size of the loaded world.) Yep. I have the site operations manual printed out along with the installation guide for Genera 8.3. One thing that I haven't figured out is which "systems" are loaded in the world. I see them all in the file system, but I haven't been able to figure out which ones are "live". I guess I should assume that since I'm currently running a distribution world that almost none (other than the basic Genera) systems have been loaded into the world. Is that true? > > I remembered another fairly useful reference once you get everything up and running to your liking: > > "Lisp Lore: A Guide to programming the Lisp Machine" (http://archive.org/details/lisploreguidetop00brom) Got it. It was pricey but well worth it. I'm looking for someone who has the companion tape (or more accurately the contents) that go with the book. The book unfortunately says "contact Symbolics for a copy of the tape". > > It's a pretty brisk read and it'll walk you through the day-to-day of usage, development, debugging, etc. Yep. I've gone through most of it (mostly as I've been flying back and forth between Hillsboro, OR and San Jose, CA). > >> I'm going to see if I can't get a bit further today. >> > > Best of luck! Thanks. TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 22 16:47:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 22:47:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <1355718729.84374.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Dec 16, 12 08:32:09 pm Message-ID: Soory for the time in replying my ISP has been on the blink again... > Ill spill the beans. I had aspirations of turning it into something > scientific. Rom swap or what have you. Naive I guess. Anyone want to Good luck, you're goign to need it ;-) The earlier 'Voyager' series machines contained 2 chips. One was the processor and keyboard interface, called 'NUT'. The other contained everything else -- ROM, RAM and Display Driver (and is called R2D2, I kid you not). The processor is similar, but not identical, to that used in the HP41 series, so at least the instruction set is known. But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus, this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41. And finally you have to fit it all in the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 22 17:06:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 23:06:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Dec 18, 12 07:36:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 4:20 PM, MG wrote: > > Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence > > of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > > that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those > > tend to be rather pricey. > > If you mean actually electrically extending SCSI, I haven't seen such > a thing. I guess my first question would be: how many wires, out of > the 50 or more pins present on its connectors, does SCSI use? If it's A lot more than 8. On 'narrow' SCSI, there are 8 data lines + optional parity, and abotu as many control lines. Oh, and termpwr. And I thin 24 ground pins (the ground correspoding to the termpwr pin is not wired to prevent a power supply short circuit if you plug the cable in upside-down). > more than the eight in an RJ45-ended cable, then I don't see how it I guess I am the only person to object to the term 'RJ45' beign used generically for the 8p8c connector... Given a sufficinetly high serial bit rate, I see no reason why you cou;dn't serialised the SCIS signals and send them over the 4 twisted pairs you have on an 8p8c conenctor.It's been done with other interfaces, afte all. Reve the 8p8c restricion and of course it's trivial. There is no reason why you can't wire a SCIS system with twist-n-flat ribbon cable. And since this is unscreend it is technically unshielded twisted pair. OK, not what you were asking at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 22 17:17:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 23:17:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D1397A.1060501@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Dec 18, 12 07:50:18 pm Message-ID: > Hard drives turn into bricks if you degauss them because they need a That depends o nthe hard drive. > servo track recorded on one track to function. SMD drives which are the > next older large drive could record with self clocked data, and later 5 Eh? > 1/4 drives such as the first Tulin 40mb drive had something called > embedded servo which could be restored with a program. Eh^2 ? Serco trackign means that the head reads special signals off the disk so as to determine whether it's off track, and if so, in which direction. These signals cannont be recorded by a normal drive -- if you think about it, withotu them the head has no way of follwoign a track or even keeping a constant distance from the spindle. They are recorced on a special manufacturing rig, often using some kind of interferometer as the postiion transducer. In some cases the servo signals are recorded on their own surface, which is oot used for user data. For example the DEC RK07 has 2 platters i nthe cartridge. 3 surfaces are used for data, the list is the servo surface. All the heads move togehter, it is assumed the drive is mechanically stable enough to keep the heads correctly postioned relative ot the servo head. Which these, the dat surfaces can be completely re-written in the field, the servo surface cannot. In other cases, the servo is 'embedded' on the data surfaces. There are bursts of pulses recorded off-track at the start of every sector. The data heads pick these up, the signal is interpretted by the head positioning electronics. Drives with low trcck density sometimes didn't use srrvo trackign at all. They used absolute head positioning for example usign a stepper motor or soem kind of position trasducer (I have eeen optical and magnetic ones) fitted ot the head positioner. With these, the heads can hold a track independntly of anything on the platter, os a totally erased drive/disk can be re-used Most, SMD drives were servo tracked, The demountable ones I've worked on had a seperate srrvo surface. Some oelder ST412-interface wincheseters were stepper-motor positioned and thuc can be redormatted after degausing. Others were not. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 18:20:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:20:09 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 02:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of > making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not > trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the > same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of > R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display > driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus, > this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41. > And finally you have to fit it all in the case. You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are within reach. Nowadays, it should be pretty simple for one to take a micropower MCU such as a TI MSP430 series chip that also has an LCD interface on it and turn it into just about any specialized calculator that one could imagine. Select an FRAM variety and you won't even need any power to keep memory alive. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Dec 22 18:22:04 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:22:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/22/2012 02:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of >> making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not >> trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the >> same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of >> R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display >> driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus, >> this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41. >> And finally you have to fit it all in the case. > > You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm > working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are > within reach. > > Nowadays, it should be pretty simple for one to take a micropower MCU such as > a TI MSP430 series chip that also has an LCD interface on it and turn it into > just about any specialized calculator that one could imagine. Select an FRAM > variety and you won't even need any power to keep memory alive. Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like that. See http://www.swissmicros.com/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 22 18:37:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 19:37:16 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> On 12/22/2012 07:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of >> making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not >> trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the >> same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of >> R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display >> driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus, >> this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41. >> And finally you have to fit it all in the case. > > You know, I still find calculators darned handy, "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Dec 22 18:40:31 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 18:40:31 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of spacewar runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which are still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing of > hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the PDP-1 > during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford > SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS > catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been > done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was > just a port of the PDP-6 version). > > Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I > haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything > other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > > Thanks! > > > -- > Marty > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 18:49:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:49:39 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D65523.7050408@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 04:22 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like that. See > http://www.swissmicros.com/ At about $1.10 USD per swiss franc, that's a heckuva deal, particularly when compared with what small-audience calculators like the 16C sell for used. I'm sore tempted... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 18:55:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:55:21 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 04:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? Apparently. There's an "app" for that, you know... --Chuck From jelynch at stny.rr.com Sat Dec 22 19:59:17 2012 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 20:59:17 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> Message-ID: <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P (the second computer I used, vintage 1979) On Dec 22, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/22/2012 04:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? > > Apparently. There's an "app" for that, you know... > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 22 20:17:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 18:17:32 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <50D669BC.7020305@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 05:59 PM, James Lynch wrote: > To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. That is odd--the kids today seem to get the TI graphing calculators. I don't know what a current HP calculator with the same functionality would be. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 21:54:47 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 22:54:47 -0500 Subject: Anyone in Michigan need IBM 5120 (5110-3) parts? Message-ID: Hi all -- Earlier this summer I picked up an IBM 5120 (5110 model 3) in fairly rough condition in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area (where my parents live -- they kindly picked it up for me and stored it in their garage but now I need to make it disappear :). I bought it because I have a 5120 that needs a few parts (keyboard, monitor, ROS and CPU boards) and I'll be taking those back home with me. The rest of the machine is up for grabs -- anyone near the Grand Rapids area need any parts? I'll be in GR until Jan 1, so if you want 'em, speak up soon. Thanks, Josh From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 00:35:18 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 22:35:18 -0800 Subject: How does this manua; card punch work ? In-Reply-To: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> References: <08940DAF-F2C5-42CA-906F-2F9BAA3207B9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50D6A626.7030704@gmail.com> How does this work ? I assume it is 90 column right ? You have a character wheel then another wheel that I assume goes to 90 with stops along it. Four latches but, they cant be in the same positions. What do 'S' and 'T' stand for ? Side and Top ? How do you advance the card ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/c1966-UNIVAC-found-Mainframe-Computer-Wright-Line-Portable-Data-CARD-PUNCH-/271126684195 From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 23 01:29:25 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 23:29:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED, again In-Reply-To: <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <1356247765.19029.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I Have most of the E11 figured out. The one area that I still have problems is the TU58 container and XXDP 2.5. I have made the container file. Test.tap 256144 bytes assigned TT1: DDA0 mount DDA0: TEST.TAP mounted and booted xxdp.dsk r updat create DD0: or (DDA0) Win Xp stops E11 with errors I would believe the container needs to have Create run on it ??? - Jerry From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 23 03:38:50 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:38:50 +0100 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <35c2.67b7d923.3e074dac@aol.com> References: <35c2.67b7d923.3e074dac@aol.com> Message-ID: <20121223103850.386b48ad9951fa64951e54cd@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 12:53:48 -0500 (EST) COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > what about using SD cards? Same cheap shit as cheap USB drives. Especially MicroSD. If you wane be (halfway) save you have to go for industrial grade SD cards. Depending on size you will have to pay 10 times as much per GB compared to consumer grade stuff. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 06:46:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 07:46:25 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D669BC.7020305@sydex.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> <50D669BC.7020305@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2012, at 21:17, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/22/2012 05:59 PM, James Lynch wrote: >> To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. > > That is odd--the kids today seem to get the TI graphing calculators. I don't know what a current HP calculator with the same functionality would be. It's all because of the highly successful money-extraction machine known as "standardized testing". The only graphing calculators allowed in the room during the SAT are the TI ones (though I don't honestly recall having needed anything more advanced than square root on the SAT; the G'RE doesn't allow calculators at all). As a result, TI can get away with selling the same machine they were selling 10 years ago (with minor tweaks) for the same price as 10 years ago. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 23 11:31:52 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:31:52 -0700 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <50D74008.8070104@brouhaha.com> James Lynch wrote: > To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. The scientific RPN models are the 35s and the (possibly discontinued) 15C Limited Edition. The 20b and 30b financials include scientific functions. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 12:10:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:10:46 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D74926.5090909@sydex.com> On 12/22/2012 04:22 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like that. See > http://www.swissmicros.com/ Just got an email back from the fellow at swissmicro.com to my inquiry about the size. Sadly, although the operation and appearance is the same as the original Voyager line, they're all the size of a credit card. At my age, I don't need another gizmo that I can't read the key legends of without a magnifying glass. Darn. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 23 12:36:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:36:32 -0500 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables Message-ID: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> I'm looking for one or two DEC E2057 (VAX 7700 CPU) modules. I'd also like to find some CI cables. (the thick blue coaxial cables) Anybody gots? Please contact me off-list of is. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 23 12:37:48 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 11:37:48 -0700 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D74926.5090909@sydex.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D74926.5090909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D74F7C.8060706@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-23 11:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/22/2012 04:22 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like that. See >> http://www.swissmicros.com/ > > Just got an email back from the fellow at swissmicro.com to my inquiry > about the size. Sadly, although the operation and appearance is the > same as the original Voyager line, they're all the size of a credit > card. At my age, I don't need another gizmo that I can't read the key > legends of without a magnifying glass. And the keys are different too, aren't they? On the prototypes at least, it is just a foil :( From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Dec 23 12:48:10 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:48:10 -0500 Subject: How does this manua; card punch work ? References: Message-ID: <01FE6E43D2794A68B56A62345EF9422A@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 22:35:18 -0800 From: mc68010 How does this work ? I assume it is 90 column right ? You have a character wheel then another wheel that I assume goes to 90 with stops along it. Four latches but, they cant be in the same positions. What do 'S' and 'T' stand for ? Side and Top ? How do you advance the card ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/c1966-UNIVAC-found-Mainframe-Computer-Wright-Line-Portable-Data-CARD-PUNCH-/271126684195 ------ Reply: I just happen to have one of these (unlike that ratty specimen it's in pretty well mint condition aside from a dried-out ribbon); for sale if anyone has ~$100 & S to throw away ;-) Remember the old Dymowriters? Same idea. 1 - Pull out card holder. 2 - Insert card. 3 - Dial letter to punch (and print!) and press (wait for it...) PUNCH - card advances to the next column. 4 - Repeat (3) until End Of Card. 5 - Remove card; goto 1 until Finished. The wheel with levers sets the Tab stops; the T button (you guessed it ;-) Tabs to the next space, and speaking of Space I'm sure you can guess what the S button does... 80 columns BTW... m From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 23 12:58:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> <50D669BC.7020305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121223105152.X33288@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, David Riley wrote: > It's all because of the highly successful money-extraction > machine known as "standardized testing". The only > graphing calculators allowed in the room during the > SAT are the TI ones (though I don't honestly recall > having needed anything more advanced than square > root on the SAT; the G'RE doesn't allow calculators at > all). As a result, TI can get away with selling the same > machine they were selling 10 years ago (with minor tweaks) > for the same price as 10 years ago. 45 years ago, for the SATs, Kurtas were not permitted, although that was NOT explicitly stated in the rules. Slide rules were explicitly forbidden. However, they permitted, and ENCOURAGED! bringing scratch paper, even graph paper! After MY group took the SATs, they changed the rules banning your own scratch paper, in order to stop "origami with logarithmic graph paper" From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Dec 23 13:00:39 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:00:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <459a.6684ac53.3e08aed7@aol.com> Thanks... that was what I was afraid of. As some of you know I do some video work and storage is a big issue in the camera. most of my larger cameras use mini DV. BETACAM or DVC-PRO... but all that is going away in favor or memory storage devices. Big concern.. as with tape I shoot injest the tape into the edit bay. toss tape on storage shelf and have the orig. saved on tape and .... the edited version can also be saved back to tape as well as saved on the network attached storage units. I fear in the future having memory card crap out ! Ed Sharpe --- _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/23/2012 11:00:31 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Message: 13 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:38:50 +0100 From: Jochen Kunz To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <20121223103850.386b48ad9951fa64951e54cd at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 12:53:48 -0500 (EST) COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > what about using SD cards? Same cheap shit as cheap USB drives. Especially MicroSD. If you wane be (halfway) save you have to go for industrial grade SD cards. Depending on size you will have to pay 10 times as much per GB compared to consumer grade stuff. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 23 13:25:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:25:20 -0500 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <459a.6684ac53.3e08aed7@aol.com> References: <459a.6684ac53.3e08aed7@aol.com> Message-ID: <50D75AA0.2010603@neurotica.com> On 12/23/2012 02:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Big concern.. as with tape I shoot injest the tape into the > edit bay. toss tape on storage shelf and have the orig. saved on tape > and .... the edited version can also be saved back to tape as > well as saved on the network attached storage units. > > > I fear in the future having memory card crap out ! That's not nearly as catastrophic as a spastic space bar! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 13:53:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 11:53:42 -0800 Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121223103850.386b48ad9951fa64951e54cd@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <35c2.67b7d923.3e074dac@aol.com> <20121223103850.386b48ad9951fa64951e54cd@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50D76146.4060004@sydex.com> On 12/23/2012 01:38 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> what about using SD cards? > Same cheap shit as cheap USB drives. Given that this is the yule season, why haven't I seen any USB flash drives in the shape of a caganer (look it up)? That would seem to be both seasonally and qualitatively appropriate. Sorry, I just had to say it. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Sun Dec 23 13:56:20 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:56:20 -0500 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED, again In-Reply-To: <1356247765.19029.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> <1356247765.19029.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121223195620.GA7103@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:29:25PM -0800, Jerry Wright wrote: >I Have most of the E11 figured out. The one area that I still have >problems is the TU58 container and XXDP 2.5. I have made the >container file. Test.tap 256144 bytes > >assigned TT1: DDA0 >mount DDA0: TEST.TAP > >mounted and booted xxdp.dsk >r updat >create DD0: or (DDA0) > >Win Xp stops E11 with errors Dang! You've definitely found a bug in E11 (which I will fix for the next release), but FWIW it only happens when you're using an undersized .DSK file. The correct size for a TU58 is 262144 bytes, not 256144 bytes. Sorry about that! John Wilson D Bit From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Dec 23 14:26:25 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 15:26:25 -0500 Subject: Shugart 801 (Intel MDS jumpers) Message-ID: <698647b8$2db1e5ba$16c5e9b5$@com> > > I'm looking at this: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shugart-model-801-8-Floppy-Drive-/230897115754?pt=US _Floppy_Zip_Jaz_Drives&hash=item35c28a626a > > and it seems to be very similar to the drives in my Intel MDS box (blue if that matters, and that's all I have of an MDS system). The listing calls it a Shugart 801. I seem to recall Fred stating that a S* 800 was a *good* drive to utilize w/some peecee disk controllers.? Is an 801 also *good*? I e-mailed the seller intending to grill some info out of him. > Here is a set of pictures picture of the jumpers from my MDS drive with Shugart 801's in it. Do they match up with yours? I don't have the system it came from only the drive. Note how drive 0 jumpers differ from drive 1 significantly. You can see from the pics that the outside of the case was pretty dirty, fortunately cleaned up nicely. The inside was just fine, no grime. I did not look up the jumpers in the manual, just took the pics for future reference. http://vintagecomputer.net/intel/MDS-720/ Bill From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 23 15:20:01 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 22:20:01 +0100 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:36:32 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd also like to find some CI cables. (the thick blue coaxial cables) Aren't those just ordinary RG-8/U / RG-213/U style 50 Ohm koax cables with ordinary TNC connectors and an extraordinary blue color? I have some (non DEC) CI cables. They are just TNC terminated blue RG58. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 23 15:34:49 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:34:49 -0800 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4F20748D-D95B-4334-942A-D836B776F0AD@shiresoft.com> On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:36:32 -0500 > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'd also like to find some CI cables. (the thick blue coaxial cables) > Aren't those just ordinary RG-8/U / RG-213/U style 50 Ohm koax cables > with ordinary TNC connectors and an extraordinary blue color? > I have some (non DEC) CI cables. They are just TNC terminated blue RG58. Don't know. From what I can remember (I have a bunch of them) they're fairly thick and heavy. TTFN - Guy From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 15:52:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:52:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart 801 (Intel MDS jumpers) Message-ID: <1356299578.39330.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Bill, Ill need to exhume my drives from the rear of my storage unit, hopefully in a few days. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 23 16:01:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 22:01:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How does this manua; card punch work ? In-Reply-To: <50D6A626.7030704@gmail.com> from "mc68010" at Dec 22, 12 10:35:18 pm Message-ID: > > How does this work ? I assume it is 90 column right ? You have a Well, given it had a label giving '026' (IIRC was it '029') codes, I would assume it puched normal 80 column Hollerith cards. > character wheel then another wheel that I assume goes to 90 with stops > along it. Four latches but, they cant be in the same positions. What do > 'S' and 'T' stand for ? Side and Top ? How do you advance the card ? I think I used one like it years ago (the hand punch I _own_ is one of the ones with 12 buttons, one for ewach row), Anyway, IIRC, you set the characcter you want to puch on the upper dial and press Punch to punch it. That advances the card one column. The 'S' key ('space') advances withotu punching. The 'T' key ('tab') moves to tyhe next tab stop position, those are the pointers on the lower dial -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 16:18:03 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 16:18:03 -0600 Subject: Osborne 1 Video Jumper Message-ID: That's what I'll call it, since I don't know the correct term Osborne used. It's the plastic plug with pins that jumper the external video card-edge port on an Osborne 1 portable. Without it, the Osborne either goes into external video-only mode or, according to one doc I read, it will damage the hardware. One of my O1 machines is missing this part. Does anyone either have a spare one or know of any plans out there to build your own? -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 23 15:53:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:53:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 22, 12 04:20:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/22/2012 02:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of > > making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not > > trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the > > same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of > > R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display > > driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus, > > this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41. > > And finally you have to fit it all in the case. > > You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm > working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are > within reach. Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My 16C lives on my electornics workbench. Alongside this PC keyboard I have a 12C (I use it a 4-banger mostly, but at least it's RPN, albeit a 4-level stack version). I often use my 49G when doing metalwork, if only to work out things like '1.5" - 3.2mm, and lets have the result in inches', along with calcuating angles, amounts to mill off to convert a circular bar into aregualr polygon of a given numebr of sides (e.g. when making hexagonal spacers) and so on. I routinely use an HP71B (is that a calculator) with HPIL and an HP82169 HPIB translator to test HPIB stuff. And so on. Quite simply tese machines do more things, and are easir to use, tan any 'app' o on a smartphone or whatever. > Nowadays, it should be pretty simple for one to take a micropower MCU > such as a TI MSP430 series chip that also has an LCD interface on it and It is. At the last HPCC conference one of the members (not me) demonstrated some simple calcualtors he'd knocked up using A PIC and an ARM microcotroller. Others around the world have done simialr things. The only difficult part is writing the firmware, particualrly if you want it to handle rounding erors properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 23 15:55:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:55:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 22, 12 07:37:16 pm Message-ID: > > You know, I still find calculators darned handy, > > "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now. Nut you show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 23 15:57:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:57:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> from "James Lynch" at Dec 22, 12 08:59:17 pm Message-ID: > > To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not ? scientific ones. Techncially, HP don;t make any calcualtors any more :-(. They are al lsubcontracted. But apart form that... What about the HP50G. RPL is a much purer RPN system than the 4-level-stack thing used by older HP calcuators, which IMHO has a lot of inconsistenceies. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 16:42:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:42:58 -0800 Subject: Osborne 1 Video Jumper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D788F2.1000703@sydex.com> On 12/23/2012 02:18 PM, Jason T wrote: > That's what I'll call it, since I don't know the correct term Osborne > used. It's the plastic plug with pins that jumper the external video > card-edge port on an Osborne 1 portable. Without it, the Osborne > either goes into external video-only mode or, according to one doc I > read, it will damage the hardware. > > One of my O1 machines is missing this part. Does anyone either have a > spare one or know of any plans out there to build your own? It's insanely simple--just get an edge connector to fit the PCB, wire straight across, top to bottom on all positions. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 23 16:56:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 17:56:27 -0500 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> On 12/23/2012 04:20 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I'd also like to find some CI cables. (the thick blue coaxial cables) > Aren't those just ordinary RG-8/U / RG-213/U style 50 Ohm koax cables > with ordinary TNC connectors and an extraordinary blue color? > I have some (non DEC) CI cables. They are just TNC terminated blue RG58. I don't know their impedance; they may be 50-ohm. They're definitely not RG58, though...they are much fatter. Not quite as fat as RG8 though. There's little difference in diameter between the outer jacket of the coax and the TNC connectors. They are also semi-rigid, somewhat similar to Heliax but not quite that rigid. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 17:03:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 15:03:08 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D78DAC.6090705@sydex.com> On 12/23/2012 01:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although > nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My > 16C lives on my electornics workbench. If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 23 17:05:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 18:05:19 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D78E2F.90508@neurotica.com> On 12/23/2012 04:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> You know, I still find calculators darned handy, >> >> "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? > > I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now. I have HP48 and HP41 apps on my iPhone. I use them both a lot. But I have both at my desk, and a few more in the lab. Everyone I work with has a calculator at their desk. I'm not so sure about this "rest of the world" thing. > Nut you > show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a > bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can > watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen Yup. > And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal > swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-) Gads, man! Take better care of those HPs! They don't grow on trees, and prices have gone through the roof. :-( (my beloved 28S just lost functionality in a few of its keys...) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 23 17:09:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 15:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121223145812.P33288@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now. Nut you > show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a > bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can > watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen But, on MOST calculators, you still need to look at it to read the display. > And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal > swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-) can't wipe them off? not all calculator keyboards are well sealed. But, calculator keyboards have some FEEL to them. What's with "tap"/"double tap"/"long tap", etc? I got a POS tablet to play with Android. ($50!) It's sold by Polaroid, but there's no camera; made by Southwest Bell?, but there's no phone. plethora of "aps", but only available if your device is blessed by Google-Play! The PolaDroid is NOT. Now I need to find and download a GOOD calculator "ap" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 23 17:37:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 18:37:15 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: <245A885A-5085-44B5-821A-3ADE207A4614@neurotica.com> Looking for a mono monitor for an AT&T 6300. Anyone have a spare? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Dec 23 18:59:08 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 19:59:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Western Digital My Book World Blue Rings "NAS" controller uses Message-ID: <8CFAF8903500273-1EE0-49A2D@webmail-d067.sysops.aol.com> Recently came into posession of a WD "Blue Rings" NAS setup. I've rapidly come to the conclusion that it really isn't very good as a NAS, and doesn't even do what it's supposed to (I can't even get SSH to stay up or reliable connections from computers). It has a ARM-based board with an Oxford OXE800, VIA Ethernet, onboard USB, provisions for a serial port (provided I supply a level converter to go to RS-232 from the supposedly "standard" 3.3V to a real standard). The big downside is the BGA RAM chip with only 32MB. I guess it's probably in the junker category since there really isn't any way I can expand the RAM (1 BGA 256Mb DDR chip, no extra pads), but I thought I'd check because I've been interested in the Pi for a bit and then this dropped into my lap - any thing that can be done usefully with this HW? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 19:13:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 17:13:09 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <245A885A-5085-44B5-821A-3ADE207A4614@neurotica.com> References: <245A885A-5085-44B5-821A-3ADE207A4614@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D7AC25.2040109@sydex.com> On 12/23/2012 03:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Looking for a mono monitor for an AT&T 6300. Anyone have a spare? > > -Dave You can always use a VGA monitor (at least I've been able to). There also a working 6300+mono monitor on eBay sans keyboard. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 19:29:28 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 17:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have an Eagle 5151 clone. In my mind a far easier solution then vga. From wilson at dbit.com Sun Dec 23 20:34:37 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:34:37 -0500 Subject: XXDP AND E11 HELP NEEDED, again In-Reply-To: <20121223195620.GA7103@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201212100829.qBA8T89x014153@dbit.dbit.com> <1355161416.14634.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121210192335.GA23197@dbit.dbit.com> <1356247765.19029.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121223195620.GA7103@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20121224023437.GA12301@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 02:56:20PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: >but FWIW it only happens when you're using an undersized .DSK file. Wrong again -- dammit!! Sorry about that. I did a lucky test and drew the wrong conclusion. The actual bug is a trashed register that only happens with non-blocking disk I/O (so, not on the DOS or stand-alone versions of E11). The BOOT TT1: command has a stupid new bug too (wrong value in R0) that I added while making the changes for the weird Terak boot procedure. Both fixes will be in the next release. John Wilson D Bit From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 23 20:36:11 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:36:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201212240236.VAA02314@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] the eight in an RJ45-ended cable [...] > I guess I am the only person to object to the term 'RJ45' beign used > generically for the 8p8c connector... No; I object, though I don't voice my objections very often. (Though I do think it's fair to call it an RJ45 connector even if you're not using it for RJ45. Admittedly, that wasn't done here.) I find using "DB" for everything from DE through DD (including unnamed sizes like the NeXT 2bpp video cable) more annoying, though I tend to cut people slack on that in view of how long it took for me to get it straight in my head myself. > Given a sufficinetly high serial bit rate, I see no reason why you > cou;dn't serialised the SCIS signals and send them over the 4 twisted > pairs you have on an 8p8c conenctor.It's been done with other > interfaces, afte all. Tweak the physical layer a little and I think you just reinvented SAS (though admittedly I don't know SAS well enough to be sure). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 23 20:41:44 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:41:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201212240241.VAA02340@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> You know, I still find calculators darned handy, >> "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? > I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now. Indeed. :( > Nut you show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at > it. Most "smart"phones have them in the hardware sense, though the software driving them usually does not use them in such a way. (All that's needed is to use gesture recognition rather than touch location to drive input.) > And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and > metal swarf? I have seen some that work fine when still coated with their factory-installed scratch-protection plastic, so I feel reasonably sure they wouldn't mind. Now, how the rest of the thing would feel about it, that's another question. Lots of palmtop comput^W^Wsmartphones strike me as being very cheaply built and therefore fragile. (I have seen a few which don't; their owners have told me they are expensive, as such things go.) Not that I would expect you to find them satisfactory, mind you. I feel reasonably sure they don't meet your repairability criteria. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Dec 23 21:01:35 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 22:01:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: but what SME do you have Dave? We have an AMR-1000 here..... Ed# In a message dated 12/23/2012 7:54:13 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Message: 7 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:25:20 -0500 From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics Message-ID: <50D75AA0.2010603 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 12/23/2012 02:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Big concern.. as with tape I shoot injest the tape into the > edit bay. toss tape on storage shelf and have the orig. saved on tape > and .... the edited version can also be saved back to tape as > well as saved on the network attached storage units. > > > I fear in the future having memory card crap out ! That's not nearly as catastrophic as a spastic space bar! -Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 23 21:11:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 19:11:44 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> On 12/23/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I have an Eagle 5151 clone. In my mind a far easier solution then vga. So you have a 6300 or M24 that you've used the Eagle 5151 clone with? I'm surprised that it worked. The 6300 outputs a 640x400 display, so the frequencies are actually closer to VGA than monochrome. (about 30KHz horizontal/60Hz vertical, if memory serves). IBM hi-res CGA mode was emulated by doubling each horizontal line. I've used a 6300 with an Acer AL1916W display with very nice results. It's not monochrome, but it's very sharp. You can, using jumpers (and removing a PAL on some versions) disable the inboard video and add an EGA or VGA card. I'm not aware that the BIOS has any support for a standard MDA card. The 6300 is odd in that the video card also serves to couple the motherboard to the bus converter board, so it can't simply be removed. I think it'd probably toast a 5151 display. Cheers, Chuck From wgungfu at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 01:52:22 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 01:52:22 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Will. Did some research and it's not a port, but a copy coded from scratch (i.e. played the game and tried to produce a similar version from that) on an IBM 360/65 with 2250 Model I video display. I'll have to put it as a distantly related branch vs. a direct port, similar to Computer Space. From http://whoinventedinternet.com/2011/blog/computer-networking-history-contacting-the-sources/ "Also, I think my friend George McQuilken mentioned to me that the Computer History Museum was aware of an early version of the Spacewar computer video game that ran on the IBM System/360 Model 65 at the MIT Computation Center that appeared some time in the late 1960s, after the original Spacewar on the DEC PDP-1, but they (you) didn?t know where it came from. Well, in fact I also wrote that one while I was employed as a system programmer at the MIT Computation Center, deliberately copying the Spacewar game I had seen and played on the PDP-1 there, and this story also is told in Leanne Jones?s new (children?s) book, ?It?s Cool to be Clever.? FYI." In the book "It's Cool to Be Clever: The Story of Edson C. Hendricks," he states "In my spare time I created a little game project with the new video display just to learn how to work it... Both his game and mine were called Spacewar." On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 2:18 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > According to wiki entry for Edson Hendricks, it was ported to the IBM 2250. -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 02:18:08 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 02:18:08 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the 1960s. As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on various hardware during the 1960s. :) So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any direct ports outside of DEC equipment. On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. Someone claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out as being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the PDP-1, which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased a Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694650.pdf) And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system in '67: http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.pdf Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first Arpanet nodes). On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of spacewar > runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which are > still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: > http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html > > On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing > of > > hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the > PDP-1 > > during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford > > SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS > > catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been > > done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was > > just a port of the PDP-6 version). > > > > Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I > > haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything > > other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > > Marty > > > > -- Marty From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:13:22 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 12:13:22 -0500 Subject: The RICM powered up the PDP-9! Message-ID: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/pdp-9-restoration We removed the 709 power supply and checked for physical damage. Everything looked OK. We reformed all of the capacitors in the power supply. All worked OK. We attached a resistive load to the power supply and measured the output voltages. All looked OK. The power supply fan was sticky so we sprayed some WD40 in the end bearing to free it up. It is noisy, but it works OK a few seconds after it is powered on. We reinstalled the power supply and connected the AC wires. We connected 110VAC to the power cord to the 841A power controller. We could control the power state with the power switch on the console. We connected the remaining red/white wires to the 709 power supply and found that all of the chassis fans work OK. Some are noisy though. The hour meter runs and we add a few tenths of an hour to the 40,163 hours already on the system. We connected the DC wires to the 709 power supply. We turned the power supply on for a few seconds at a time and measured the voltages on the chassis test points. The voltages looked OK and some lights on the console turned on. We tried the basic Examine/Deposit functions, but did not get the expected response. We can turn the PRGM STOP light on and off with the I/O RESET and START switches. With the REGISTER DISPLAY switch in the API position the REGISTER lights flicker. The rate of the flicker can be controlled with the REPEAT SPEED switch. Later this week we will do some basic debugging to see if any of the processor is working as expected. -- Michael Thompson From steve at tronola.com Sun Dec 23 13:43:43 2012 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:43:43 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> >> To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. > >The scientific RPN models are the 35s and the (possibly discontinued) >15C Limited Edition. The 20b and 30b financials include scientific >functions. --- The 50g also does RPN (as well as algebraic and "textbook"). From jelynch at stny.rr.com Sun Dec 23 21:28:17 2012 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 22:28:17 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <201212240241.VAA02340@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212240241.VAA02340@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <204D2228-50D7-4B88-BD12-6E80CA522339@stny.rr.com> I still use a hp34c. Know all the keys and its LED display comes in handy if you wake up in the middle of the night and want to make a calculation. Of the six hp calculators I have, the hp 34c is my absolute favorite. Cheers. Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P On Dec 23, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> You know, I still find calculators darned handy, >>> "Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? >> I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now. > > Indeed. :( > >> Nut you show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at >> it. > > Most "smart"phones have them in the hardware sense, though the software > driving them usually does not use them in such a way. (All that's > needed is to use gesture recognition rather than touch location to > drive input.) > >> And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and >> metal swarf? > > I have seen some that work fine when still coated with their > factory-installed scratch-protection plastic, so I feel reasonably sure > they wouldn't mind. > > Now, how the rest of the thing would feel about it, that's another > question. Lots of palmtop comput^W^Wsmartphones strike me as being > very cheaply built and therefore fragile. (I have seen a few which > don't; their owners have told me they are expensive, as such things go.) > > Not that I would expect you to find them satisfactory, mind you. I > feel reasonably sure they don't meet your repairability criteria. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jelynch at stny.rr.com Sun Dec 23 22:15:56 2012 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:15:56 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> Steve, You are correct. Unfortunately the quality and key response is poor. Only a finite number of the 15c limited edition were made and I believe there is not another run scheduled. The 35s had promise but is nowhere as nice as the original. Seemingly the financial hp 12c has been in continuous production for years, and on the shelf at local office supply stores. The quality of the 12c is significantly better than the 15c limited edition. I am hopeful they will offer an anniversary edition of the 34c. I am unfamiliar with the 20b and 30b models. Thanks for the info, I will look at these models. I looked at the Swiss micro but I am fearful of it very small footprint. Cheers. Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P On Dec 23, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Steve Lafferty wrote: > >>> To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. >> >> The scientific RPN models are the 35s and the (possibly discontinued) >> 15C Limited Edition. The 20b and 30b financials include scientific >> functions. > > --- The 50g also does RPN (as well as algebraic and "textbook"). > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 22:27:35 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 20:27:35 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> References: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: Anyone have a WP 34S? Is $75 worth it for one already setup? Is it possible to acquire or build your own programming cable to mod one yourself? http://commerce.hpcalc.org/34s.php From jelynch at stny.rr.com Sun Dec 23 22:48:17 2012 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:48:17 -0500 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <145E9CA8-5DBD-4E18-8815-637189EC9FC0@stny.rr.com> Wow! I will give it a shot. Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P On Dec 23, 2012, at 11:27 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone have a WP 34S? Is $75 worth it for one already setup? Is it > possible to acquire or build your own programming cable to mod one > yourself? > > http://commerce.hpcalc.org/34s.php From useddec at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:00:58 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:00:58 -0600 Subject: In the market for hard disk drive for a PDP-8/m In-Reply-To: <201212070236.qB72aDsq098339@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201212070236.qB72aDsq098339@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi Steve, We have some bad weather this week. I, try to get everything together on the 26th. Thank, Paul On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Steve Lafferty wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have been making good progress restoring a PDP-8/m and would like to buy a vintage hard drive and controller for it. Anyone know where I might find those? An RK05 or Diablo-31 drive would be nice. Will also need an RK8E controller board set. > > Have had some near misses: A Diablo-31 was up on eBay but it turns out that it's missing a head. Found an RK05 listed for sale on a fellow's site. After I agreed to buy it, haven't been able to get a reply, though. Located the controller listed for sale at another company site. The phone system takes messages but they haven't been returned (so far). Email bounces. Hmmm. > > Please let me know if you know of any possibilities. > > Thanks, > > Steve > steve at tronola.com > http://www.tronola.com/ > > > From cube1 at charter.net Sun Dec 23 23:06:47 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:06:47 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> I did a version for the Atari 800 that sold a couple of copies via APX back in the day - but I would not call it a port. It was a from-scratch implementation. I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. JRJ On 12/22/2012 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing of > hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the PDP-1 > during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford > SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS > catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been > done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was > just a port of the PDP-6 version). > > Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I > haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything > other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > > Thanks! > > > -- > Marty > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 23:09:12 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:09:12 -0600 Subject: vax4000-200 Message-ID: Hi Ben, I might have one here.i would think boxing and putting on a pallet would be best. What drives etc you need? I'm guessing total weight about 150 pounds max. Thanks, paul From cube1 at charter.net Sun Dec 23 23:10:15 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:10:15 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> There also seems to be a version for the PDP-12, though I have not tried running it. JRJ On 12/22/2012 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing of > hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the PDP-1 > during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford > SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS > catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been > done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was > just a port of the PDP-6 version). > > Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I > haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything > other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > > Thanks! > > > -- > Marty > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Dec 23 23:16:55 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:16:55 -0800 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> Message-ID: Jay wrote > > > I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. > Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them "Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. Rick Bensene From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Dec 23 23:31:39 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:31:39 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <50D7E8BB.9050103@ubanproductions.com> Actually, the print set for the PDS-1 is dated from the late 60s and the first model of the machine which I did own and later traded to another collector was a late 60s vintage. Mine, the PDS-1D, is from the early 70s. --tom On 12/23/12 2:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the 1960s. > As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on > various hardware during the 1960s. :) > > So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any > direct ports outside of DEC equipment. > > On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period > or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what > mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. Someone > claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out as > being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the PDP-1, > which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until > '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was > first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. > > The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased a > Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694650.pdf) > > And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system > in '67: > http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.pdf > > Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first > Arpanet nodes). > > > > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > >> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of spacewar >> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which are >> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: >> http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html >> >> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: >>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing >> of >>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the >> PDP-1 >>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford >>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS >>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been >>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was >>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). >>> >>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I >>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything >>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Marty >>> >> >> > > From wilson at dbit.com Sun Dec 23 23:41:16 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 00:41:16 -0500 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> Message-ID: <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 09:16:55PM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: >Jay wrote >> I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. > >Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade >version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. > >Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) >that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them >"Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items >today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. Has anyone already mentioned Space Wars? This was an arcade version that I don't think is directly descended from the real thing, but anyway it's a similar game. It was rare but there was one at 1001 Plays (pinball/video arcade in Cambridge MA), which probably isn't a coincidence (Wikipedia says it was developed by an MIT grad). It had various options for whether the sun was visible or how its gravity worked or whether the universe wrapped around at the edges of the screen or went on forever, which you'd set on a small keypad (maybe six keys?) with keyboard-like full-stroke keys. It's weird what you remember... Anyway it was a lot of fun. John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 24 00:05:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:05:04 -0700 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <4F20748D-D95B-4334-942A-D836B776F0AD@shiresoft.com> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F20748D-D95B-4334-942A-D836B776F0AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50D7F090.3010508@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote about CI cables: > Aren't those just ordinary RG-8/U / RG-213/U style 50 Ohm koax cables > with ordinary TNC connectors and an extraordinary blue color? Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Don't know. From what I can remember (I have a bunch of them) they're fairly > thick and heavy. That's certainly consistent with RG-8/U (obsolete) or RG-213/U. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 24 00:27:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 01:27:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Western Digital My Book World Blue Rings "NAS" controller uses In-Reply-To: <8CFAF8903500273-1EE0-49A2D@webmail-d067.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFAF8903500273-1EE0-49A2D@webmail-d067.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <201212240627.BAA04333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Recently came into posession of a WD "Blue Rings" NAS setup. I've > rapidly come to the conclusion that it really isn't very good as a > NAS, and doesn't even do what it's supposed to (I can't even get SSH > to stay up or reliable connections from computers). I'm not sure how long-lived ssh connections are relevant to a NAS, unless you're trying to treat sftp-exported space as a filesystem. > It has [...]. The big downside is the BGA RAM chip with only 32MB. What's wrong with that? 32M is plenty to be a useful machine provided you don't try to run bloatware like a "desktop environment" on it. > I guess it's probably in the junker category since there really isn't > any way I can expand the RAM (1 BGA 256Mb DDR chip, no extra pads), > but I thought I'd check because I've been interested in the Pi for a > bit and then this dropped into my lap - any thing that can be done > usefully with this HW? Depends on what you consider "useful". If you don't want it I'd cheerfully take it off your hands (at least tentatively, depending on costs); I think I have only the one arm-based machine and another wouldn't be amiss. Besides, I'd be disappointed to see perfectly good hardware scrapped. Of course, this assumes that (a) it's willing to boot something other than the vendor OS and (b) enough is known about the hardware that putting something else on it isn't just an exercise in frustration. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 00:38:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 01:38:53 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D7AC25.2040109@sydex.com> References: <245A885A-5085-44B5-821A-3ADE207A4614@neurotica.com> <50D7AC25.2040109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D7F87D.8070109@neurotica.com> On 12/23/2012 08:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Looking for a mono monitor for an AT&T 6300. Anyone have a spare? > > You can always use a VGA monitor (at least I've been able to). Nah, I want a complete as-sold system. (I sold and serviced them eons ago at an after-school job) I have one, but upon unpacking the monitor, I found it had not survived the move. > There also a working 6300+mono monitor on eBay sans keyboard. I will check it out. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun Dec 23 23:25:12 2012 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 22:25:12 -0700 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <50D7E738.5090802@Wild-Hare.com> Data General Nova computer, 1968, Spacewar demonstration program at the FJCC (Fall Joint Computer Conference). (I am still scrounging for a copy of the original version...) Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. On 12/23/2012 1:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the 1960s. > As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on > various hardware during the 1960s. :) > > So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any > direct ports outside of DEC equipment. > > On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period > or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what > mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. Someone > claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out as > being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the PDP-1, > which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until > '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was > first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. > > The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased a > Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694650.pdf) > > And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system > in '67: > http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.pdf > > Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first > Arpanet nodes). > > > > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > >> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of spacewar >> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which are >> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: >> http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html >> >> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: >>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing >> of >>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the >> PDP-1 >>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford >>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS >>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been >>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was >>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). >>> >>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I >>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything >>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Marty >>> >> >> > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 24 02:43:12 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:43:12 +0100 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 17:56:27 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know their impedance; they may be 50-ohm. [...] The cables I have (not made by DEC) are realy, clearly marked with "50 OHM CHEAPERNET 10BASE2". I got them with a QBus to CI and CI to SCSI setup. I handed the CI stuff, with the exception of the cables, to a friend some years ago. So I can't be more speciffic. I suspect CI cables are just ordinary 50 Ohm coax, but heavily overspeced in best DEC tradition. ;-) > They are also semi-rigid, somewhat similar to Heliax but not quite > that rigid. I won't call semi-rigid a cable and Heliax is no semi-rigid. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 24 02:54:15 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 00:54:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> References: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, James Lynch wrote: > Steve, > > You are correct. Unfortunately the quality and key response is poor. > Only a finite number of the 15c limited edition were made and I believe > there is not another run scheduled. The 35s had promise but is nowhere > as nice as the original. Seemingly the financial hp 12c has been in > continuous production for years, and on the shelf at local office supply > stores. The quality of the 12c is significantly better than the 15c > limited edition. I am hopeful they will offer an anniversary edition of > the 34c. > > I am unfamiliar with the 20b and 30b models. Thanks for the info, I will > look at these models. > > I looked at the Swiss micro but I am fearful of it very small footprint. There's a homebrewed effort to produce a new calculator from the ground up in the spirit of HP RPN calcs. There isn't much info publicly available, but there is discussion and polls on design decisions at hpmuseum.org. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Dec 24 08:40:54 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:40:54 -0300 Subject: U Utah in the 1960s (was: Spacewar hardware?) In-Reply-To: References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> Martin Goldberg asked: > On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period > or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what > mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. Though it probably won't have the details you need, this recent talk from Alan Kay about what the graduate program at the University of Utah was like in the early days and the people that were involved is very interesting: http://www.sci.utah.edu/scix2012-keynote.html -- Jecel From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Dec 24 08:14:07 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:14:07 -0500 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20121224141407.GB30625@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * John Wilson [121224 00:42]: > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 09:16:55PM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > >Jay wrote > >> I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. > > > >Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade > >version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. > > > >Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) > >that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them > >"Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items > >today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. > > Has anyone already mentioned Space Wars? This was an arcade version that I > don't think is directly descended from the real thing, but anyway it's a > similar game. It was rare but there was one at 1001 Plays (pinball/video > arcade in Cambridge MA), which probably isn't a coincidence (Wikipedia says it > was developed by an MIT grad). It had various options for whether the sun was > visible or how its gravity worked or whether the universe wrapped around at the > edges of the screen or went on forever, which you'd set on a small keypad > (maybe six keys?) with keyboard-like full-stroke keys. It's weird what you > remember... Anyway it was a lot of fun. > > John Wilson > D Bit Wow, 1001 Plays. I spent a *lot* of time in there... Todd From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 24 08:44:09 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 06:44:09 -0800 Subject: U Utah in the 1960s In-Reply-To: <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <50D86A39.5010105@bitsavers.org> On 12/24/12 6:40 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Martin Goldberg asked: > >> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period >> or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what >> mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. > The device which was sold as the Evans and Sutherland LDS-1 was the best known calligraphic display developed at the U of U. It was attached to a PDP-10. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 24 09:01:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 08:01:57 -0700 Subject: U Utah in the 1960s (was: Spacewar hardware?) In-Reply-To: <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208 at billy.ezwind.net>, "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." writes: > Though it probably won't have the details you need, this recent talk > from Alan Kay about what the graduate program at the University of Utah > was like in the early days and the people that were involved is very > interesting: > > http://www.sci.utah.edu/scix2012-keynote.html Sheesh, that was in my own back yard and I didn't hear about it! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Dec 24 09:35:00 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:35:00 +0000 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2526A081@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Eric writes: >>> Jochen writes: >>> Aren't those just ordinary RG-8/U / RG-213/U style 50 Ohm koax cables >>> with ordinary TNC connectors and an extraordinary blue color? Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Don't know. From what I can remember (I have a bunch of them) they're fairly >> thick and heavy. > That's certainly consistent with RG-8/U (obsolete) or RG-213/U. I was just looking at some of the old CI cables in the computer room floor. This is all bought-from-DEC stuff from early 1990's. The long ones are typically blue and labeled "12 AWG". They look a lot like RG-8/213 types. There are some skinny jumper cables on the CI panel internals that look to be a much skinnier kind of coax, also blue, looks like RG-174. In the "real world" I am much more likely to see LMR-400 or Belden 9913 specified today, than the RG-type specifications. Tim. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 24 09:50:11 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 07:50:11 -0800 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> References: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> Message-ID: <20121224075011.34d28038@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 23:10:15 -0600 Jay Jaeger wrote: > There also seems to be a version for the PDP-12, though I have not > tried running it. I used to run it regularly on my PDP-12. It worked better there than on my current PDP-8/E, VT8E, VT01 combo. Must've been differences in how the graphics was implemented (the PDP-12 ran graphics in Link mode). Otherwise the code is the same. BTW: My PDP-12 was donated to and is archived at the Computer History Museum... Cheers, Lyle > On 12/22/2012 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a > > listing of hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported > > to after the PDP-1 during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version > > which was done at Stanford SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 > > versions which appeared in the DECUS catalog in the early 70s > > (which means they could have technically been done in the very late > > 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was just a port of > > the PDP-6 version). > > > > Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the > > 60s? I haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was > > on anything other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > > Marty > > > -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 24 10:03:38 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 08:03:38 -0800 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <20121224075011.34d28038@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> <20121224075011.34d28038@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50D87CDA.5000709@bitsavers.org> On 12/24/12 7:50 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > BTW: My PDP-12 was donated to and is archived at the Computer History > Museum... > ..along with all of his PDP-8/12 software, which is on the list of things to be imaged. I'm hoping I can get back to some serious archiving in 2013. I'm currently working on about 1000 floppies that I sent to Don Maslin in 2000 that weren't part of the tape backup from 1997 that I already recovered. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Dec 24 10:56:48 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:56:48 -0600 Subject: Practical Peripherals ProClock software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004101cde1f7$a9a02970$fce07c50$@com> http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/GS.WorldView/v1999/Oct/ The Modem.mgr.manual explains it all. The Modem.mgr.ProDOS.SDK.bin apparently contains the software. Although it is modem software, according to page 1 of the manual, it supports the clock card that you have. According to this advertisement, http://books.google.com/books?id=ii8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=Practical+ Peripherals+ProClock+software&source=bl&ots=4j8YEITLyM&sig=MXmvaWIq5Ahrgeu5H XyGkSeBFMc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I4fYUOqZKuyr2AXe74DYBw&ved=0CGcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q= Practical%20Peripherals%20ProClock%20software&f=false (page 54, bottom right corner) this card was apparently released about Oct 1985. You might need a new battery before it works! Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Win Heagy Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 12:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Practical Peripherals ProClock software? Hi, I have a Practical Peripherals ProClock for my Apple IIe. It has everything in the box, but I seem to be unable to read the software utilities disk. Can anyone point me to the software online or possibly send me a zipped image? I googled and cannot find anything. Thanks, Win wheagy at gmail.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5982 - Release Date: 12/23/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5982 - Release Date: 12/23/12 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 24 11:01:01 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, John Wilson wrote: > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 09:16:55PM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: >> Jay wrote >>> I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. >> >> Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade >> version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. >> >> Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) >> that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them >> "Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items >> today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. > > Has anyone already mentioned Space Wars? This was an arcade version that I > don't think is directly descended from the real thing, but anyway it's a > similar game. It was rare but there was one at 1001 Plays (pinball/video > arcade in Cambridge MA), which probably isn't a coincidence (Wikipedia says it > was developed by an MIT grad). It had various options for whether the sun was > visible or how its gravity worked or whether the universe wrapped around at the > edges of the screen or went on forever, which you'd set on a small keypad > (maybe six keys?) with keyboard-like full-stroke keys. It's weird what you > remember... Anyway it was a lot of fun. > I remember seeing that exact game at the theatre at the Tacoma Mall when I was a child. I don't think I've ever seen another arcade machine with a keypad like that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 24 11:22:08 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:22:08 -0800 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50D88F40.3000802@bitsavers.org> On 12/24/12 9:01 AM, geneb wrote: >>> Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) >>> that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them >>> "Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items >>> today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. >> It is a discrete logic raster game. The ships are created from images encoded in an array of diodes >> Has anyone already mentioned Space Wars? This was an arcade version that I >> don't think is directly descended from the real thing, but anyway it's a >> similar game. Designed by Larry Rosenthal. Built using a TTL 12 bit processor and integrated vector generator. And there is the Galaxy game, custom Unibus vector generator in an 11/20. Two are currently running on the first floor of CHM. The only single-player Spacewar! like vector arcade game I can think of offhand is Solar Quest. the rest are a minimum of two players. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 12:11:26 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:11:26 -0200 Subject: HP 12c References: Message-ID: <4FDB0A54998841B6B78E0CD1DBC50D09@tababook> >> You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm >> working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are >> within reach. > nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My > 16C lives on my electornics workbench. Alongside this PC keyboard I have I envy you. All of you with a 16C. :o( From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 12:17:29 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:17:29 -0200 Subject: HP 12c References: <20121223145812.P33288@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <27A28FFACAFE4E309916F331B4A80D16@tababook> You can always download "black market" and the rest is up to you :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 9:09 PM Subject: Re: HP 12c > On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now. Nut you >> show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a >> bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can >> watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen > > But, on MOST calculators, you still need to look at it to read the > display. > >> And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal >> swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-) > can't wipe them off? > not all calculator keyboards are well sealed. > > But, calculator keyboards have some FEEL to them. > What's with "tap"/"double tap"/"long tap", etc? > > I got a POS tablet to play with Android. ($50!) > It's sold by Polaroid, but there's no camera; > made by Southwest Bell?, but there's no phone. > plethora of "aps", but only available if your > device is blessed by Google-Play! The PolaDroid is NOT. > Now I need to find and download a GOOD calculator "ap" From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 13:06:25 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:06:25 -0500 Subject: Practical Peripherals ProClock software? (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Message-ID: Thanks. However, as you mention, this is a software package that is different than the software that came with the ProClock. It looks like this Comm software supports the ProClock, but does not provide the functionality of the original software. Also, trying to unpack this package, gets me into some odd circular exercise. It goes through two or three iterations of different package archive formats and ends up back at the original package. Any other leads to the Practical Peripherals ProClock software? Thanks, Win ------------------------------ *Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:56:48 -0600 From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: Practical Peripherals ProClock software? Message-ID: <004101cde1f7$a9a02970$fce07c50$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/GS.WorldView/v1999/Oct/ The Modem.mgr.manual explains it all. The Modem.mgr.ProDOS.SDK.bin apparently contains the software. Although it is modem software, according to page 1 of the manual, it supports the clock card that you have. According to this advertisement, http://books.google.com/books?id=ii8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=Practical+ Peripherals+ProClock+software&source=bl&ots=4j8YEITLyM&sig=MXmvaWIq5Ahrgeu5H XyGkSeBFMc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I4fYUOqZKuyr2AXe74DYBw&ved=0CGcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q= Practical%20Peripherals%20ProClock%20software&f=false (page 54, bottom right corner) this card was apparently released about Oct 1985. You might need a new battery before it works! Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Win Heagy Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 12:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Practical Peripherals ProClock software? Hi, I have a Practical Peripherals ProClock for my Apple IIe. It has everything in the box, but I seem to be unable to read the software utilities disk. Can anyone point me to the software online or possibly send me a zipped image? I googled and cannot find anything. Thanks, Win wheagy at gmail.com* From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 13:23:04 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:23:04 -0800 Subject: Continuous feed computer paper anyone? Message-ID: <50D8AB98.7000505@gmail.com> Does anyone want any 14-7/8" X 11" continuous feed paper? I have a partial box full that I was going to just take to the recycling. Asking the cost of shipping plus a little extra for my troubles. These are over $50 a box new....How times have changed! Email me off the list. -Kurt From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 13:28:06 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:28:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire > C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what > they want. ? One could.? But the problem here is that the consumers are too clueless to know what they NEED, and in the Wal*Mart Nation, "cheaper is better", even when it isn't, and the industry is all too willing to oblige. ? This is not a good thing overall. C: Yes and no. While my overall feelings are mostly inline w/yours, sometimes market forces serve to bring prices down. Maybe that's a bad thing at times, because it breeds contempt for the tools we use. Rather then having to spend 3000$ for a capable machine, you spend 300$, and if it craps the bed or gets stolen, just replace it. You never even have the opportunity nor the desire to know the machine. ?Computers bore me these days. I don't know what it is. Much of it is geared towards stupid games and whatnot. > Much of the data (a bloody huge amount) being shifted > around is eminently replaceable. The latest version of Spiderman can > hardly be considered mission critical. ? Sure, but photos of Baby are what inevitably gets lost when people do stupid things and use shit equipment. C: Well that's the fault of their own. You can't trust ANY media w/irreplaceable data. People don't back up, won't back up. They're just lazy and stupid. Many more people are using computers these days (for a variety of tasks, some legitimate, many not so), and didn't take the time to learn, or just weren't taught the essentials of data manipulation, or just don't care. You can't necessarily blame the manufacturers for the directions they take. They have to remain fluid, engineers have to maintain their significance, etc. ? And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time. C: Not if they get burned enough. Or are told repeatedly they need to back up crucial data. ??? I'm all for reliability, when it counts. But gone are the days of the dollar floppy disk that last years and years and years. Astounding devices they were. But times change :( ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 13:38:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:38:24 -0500 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D8AF30.4020201@neurotica.com> On 12/24/2012 02:28 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what >> they want. > > One could. But the problem here is that the consumers are too > clueless to know what they NEED, and in the Wal*Mart Nation, "cheaper > is better", even when it isn't, and the industry is all too willing > to oblige. > > This is not a good thing overall. > > C: Yes and no. While my overall feelings are mostly inline w/yours, > sometimes market forces serve to bring prices down. Maybe that's a > bad thing at times, because it breeds contempt for the tools we use. > Rather then having to spend 3000$ for a capable machine, you spend > 300$, and if it craps the bed or gets stolen, just replace it. You > never even have the opportunity nor the desire to know the machine. > Computers bore me these days. I don't know what it is. Much of it is > geared towards stupid games and whatnot. No. I want quality stuff that doesn't just blow up. I do not accept the "throw-away society". And you know what? That's working just fine for me. > C: Well that's the fault of their own. You can't trust ANY media > w/irreplaceable data. People don't back up, won't back up. They're > just lazy and stupid. Many more people are using computers these days > (for a variety of tasks, some legitimate, many not so), and didn't > take the time to learn, or just weren't taught the essentials of data > manipulation, or just don't care. You can't necessarily blame the > manufacturers for the directions they take. They have to remain > fluid, engineers have to maintain their significance, etc. Yup. > And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time. > > C: Not if they get burned enough. Or are told repeatedly they need to > back up crucial data. Have you tried this? Eventually you get "I know, I KNOW!! I will next time." ...and they still don't. > I'm all for reliability, when it counts. But gone are the days of the > dollar floppy disk that last years and years and years. Astounding > devices they were. But times change :( If we allow them to. If mine has to be the very last voice of sanity demanding QUALITY in this industry, so be it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 13:39:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121224113736.C55609@shell.lmi.net> > C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what > they want. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 13:40:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:40:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121224113736.C55609@shell.lmi.net> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121224113736.C55609@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121224114013.W55609@shell.lmi.net> > C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what > they want. The industry is just giving the consumer what the industry told them that they want From sales at elecplus.com Mon Dec 24 13:57:50 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:57:50 -0600 Subject: Next warehouse day Jan 12, 2013 Message-ID: <004d01cde210$f430ded0$dc929c70$@com> For those of you that could not make it in December, we will be having another warehouse day on Jan 13, 2013, Saturday, beginning at 9AM, and lasting until about 1PM. Some of this stuff is too bulky/heavy to ship, and some I have no clue on, so bring test disks, and let's have some fun J Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5982 - Release Date: 12/23/12 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:04:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:04:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 12/23/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I have an Eagle 5151 clone. In my mind a far easier solution then vga. So you have a 6300 or M24 that you've used the Eagle 5151 clone with? I'm surprised that it worked. The 6300 outputs a 640x400 display, so the frequencies are actually closer to VGA than monochrome.? (about 30KHz horizontal/60Hz vertical, if memory serves).? IBM hi-res CGA mode was emulated by doubling each horizontal line. C: a VGA horizontal scan rate is 31.5 khz. Off the top of my head I don't know what a 5151s is, about 22-23 khz allowing for overscan. A Tandy 2000 or AT & T 6300s is about 25 khz. A vga has 480 lines of resolution (although there is that 400 line mode, which could possibly mean vga monitors are dual frequency. Anyone?). 400 is closer to 348 then 480. I've used a 6300 with an Acer AL1916W display with very nice results. It's not monochrome, but it's very sharp. C: I'm sure you're relating your success w/that monitor accurately, but is it a multiscanner? I can't even understand how a ttl video signal is compatible w/a monitor that expects 1 volt peak to peak rms. You can, using jumpers (and removing a PAL on some versions) disable the inboard video and add an EGA or VGA card.? I'm not aware that the BIOS has any support for a standard MDA card.? The 6300 is odd in that the video card also serves to couple the motherboard to the bus converter board, so it can't simply be removed. I think it'd probably toast a 5151 display. ?C: I'm at a loss to understand why you think that. And no I've never plugged anything foreign into a 6300, but a ttl monitor seems the natural choice. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 14:09:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:09:03 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> > C: I'm sure you're relating your success w/that monitor accurately, > but is it a multiscanner? I can't even understand how a ttl video > signal is compatible w/a monitor that expects 1 volt peak to peak > rms. "1 volt peak to peak rms"? Well, which is it? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:11:17 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:11:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121224114013.W55609@shell.lmi.net> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121224113736.C55609@shell.lmi.net> <20121224114013.W55609@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356379877.61848.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin > C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what > they want. The industry is just giving the consumer what the industry told them that they want C: the consumer had to be told that they wanted moderately useful stuff for low prices??? There's no reasons for manufacturers to lower their prices but for market forces/competition. Quality suffers, but what can you expect? A person shows up at Target, sees a 16 gig thumb drive for, I don't know, 10 bucks, they say "WOW, I can afford that!". And buy it. It's simple economics. Sure companies like Microshaft work hard to try to tell us what we need, and are successful some of the time, but we're talking about hardware here. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:15:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:15:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> whoops it seems the 5151 uses 50 khz refresh, and consequently it's horizontal scan is lower (18.432 khz). To push it to use a 60 hz refresh might not be the best idea, but it still seems like a more natural choice, though I could be wrong. I still don't understand how your Acer handles ttl video, and as such is not a standard vga unit. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:26:32 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:26:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356380792.63505.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ? "1 volt peak to peak rms"?? Well, which is it? ;) ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave ?C: I was of the persuasion that the "1 volt" was an rms measurement. In reality the signal varied between +/- .707. I'm googling... From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 07:51:40 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 07:51:40 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Jay wrote > > > > > > I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. > > > > Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade > version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. > > Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) > that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them > "Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items > today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. > > Rick Bensene > That's actually not a version of Spacewar, nor is it based directly off the game. It was "inspired by," and created by Nolan Bushnell and Ted Dabney. The hardware is a custom TTL based state machine (no software). They licensed it to Nutting Associates in Mountain View. We have the full story in our book: http://amzn.com/0985597402 -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 07:58:55 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 07:58:55 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:41 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 09:16:55PM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > Has anyone already mentioned Space Wars? This was an arcade version that I > don't think is directly descended from the real thing, but anyway it's a > similar game. It was rare but there was one at 1001 Plays (pinball/video > arcade in Cambridge MA), which probably isn't a coincidence (Wikipedia > says it > was developed by an MIT grad). It had various options for whether the sun > was > visible or how its gravity worked or whether the universe wrapped around > at the > edges of the screen or went on forever, which you'd set on a small keypad > (maybe six keys?) with keyboard-like full-stroke keys. It's weird what you > remember... Anyway it was a lot of fun. > > John Wilson > D Bit > Actually, Space Wars is running the real thing. The game was released by Cinemantronics and was designed by MIT grad Larry Rosenthal, who built a TTL based computer that emulated the PDP-8 instruction set. He then licensed the PDP-8 version of Spacewar from Russel and MIT, which is what is running in Space Wars. Cheaper route then the previous coin-op game to do that, Galaxy Game (which was running on actual PDP hardware with terminal stations). -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:02:15 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 08:02:15 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D7E8BB.9050103@ubanproductions.com> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <50D7E8BB.9050103@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Are you sure? My understanding (from all the documentation I've seen) is that the PDS-1 was released in 1970? On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > Actually, the print set for the PDS-1 is dated from the late 60s and the > first model of the machine which I did own and later traded to another > collector was a late 60s vintage. Mine, the PDS-1D, is from the early 70s. > > --tom > > On 12/23/12 2:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the > 1960s. > > As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on > > various hardware during the 1960s. :) > > > > So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any > > direct ports outside of DEC equipment. > > > > On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that > period > > or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what > > mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. > Someone > > claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out > as > > being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the > PDP-1, > > which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until > > '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was > > first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. > > > > The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased > a > > Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694650.pdf) > > > > And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system > > in '67: > > > http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.pdf > > > > Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first > > Arpanet nodes). > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban > wrote: > > > >> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of > spacewar > >> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which > are > >> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: > >> http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html > >> > >> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a > listing > >> of > >>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the > >> PDP-1 > >>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at > Stanford > >>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the > DECUS > >>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been > >>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was > >>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). > >>> > >>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I > >>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything > >>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Marty > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:02:32 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 08:02:32 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D7E738.5090802@Wild-Hare.com> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <50D7E738.5090802@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: Thanks Bruce! On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Bruce wrote: > Data General Nova computer, 1968, Spacewar demonstration program at the > FJCC (Fall Joint Computer Conference). > > (I am still scrounging for a copy of the original version...) > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > > > > > On 12/23/2012 1:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >> Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the 1960s. >> As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on >> various hardware during the 1960s. :) >> >> So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any >> direct ports outside of DEC equipment. >> >> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period >> or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what >> mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. Someone >> claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out as >> being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the PDP-1, >> which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until >> '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was >> first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. >> >> The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased a >> Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/**fulltext/u2/694650.pdf >> ) >> >> And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system >> in '67: >> http://content.lib.utah.edu/**utils/getfile/collection/** >> uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.**pdf >> >> Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first >> Arpanet nodes). >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban >> wrote: >> >> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of spacewar >>> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which are >>> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: >>> http://members.iglou.com/**thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/**Image10.html >>> >>> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: >>> >>>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing >>>> >>> of >>> >>>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the >>>> >>> PDP-1 >>> >>>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford >>>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the >>>> DECUS >>>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been >>>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was >>>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). >>>> >>>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I >>>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything >>>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marty >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:04:12 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 08:04:12 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> References: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> Message-ID: Thanks Jay, that would be a 70s port though. :) On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > There also seems to be a version for the PDP-12, though I have not tried > running it. > > JRJ > > > On 12/22/2012 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing >> of >> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the PDP-1 >> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford >> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the DECUS >> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been >> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was >> just a port of the PDP-6 version). >> >> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I >> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything >> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> -- >> Marty >> >> -- Marty From ohh at panix.com Mon Dec 24 10:17:49 2012 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:17:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50D7E2E7.5080104@charter.net> <20121224054116.GA14027@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, John Wilson wrote: > Has anyone already mentioned Space Wars? This was an arcade version that I > don't think is directly descended from the real thing, but anyway it's a > similar game. [...] Manufactured by Cinematronics, a San Diego company I consulted for a bit back then. It came out about 1978, IIRC. As I remember the hardware was a custom processor with a peculiar but passable instruction set, and a black-and-white vector display. Fun game, too. My friends and I wasted a considerable amount of time in front of one. We were also pretty amused that the two ships they used for the combat were (though officially unnamed) a little tiny USS Enterprise and a little tiny Imperial Star Destroyer. :) -O.- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 14:32:36 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:32:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ok batting a thousand today. Meters display ac voltages as rms. Peak to peak rms doesn't make a whole lot of sense I guess. Apologies. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Dec 24 15:01:59 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:01:59 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <50D7E8BB.9050103@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <50D8C2C7.9050007@ubanproductions.com> As I said, I was going by printset dates and circuit board dates, so given that time is required to produce a product, it may well be that the first machine was not actually shipped until 1970. What is special about December 31, 1969? --tom On 12/24/12 8:02 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Are you sure? My understanding (from all the documentation I've seen) is > that the PDS-1 was released in 1970? > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > >> Actually, the print set for the PDS-1 is dated from the late 60s and the >> first model of the machine which I did own and later traded to another >> collector was a late 60s vintage. Mine, the PDS-1D, is from the early 70s. >> >> --tom >> >> On 12/23/12 2:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: >>> Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the >> 1960s. >>> As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on >>> various hardware during the 1960s. :) >>> >>> So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any >>> direct ports outside of DEC equipment. >>> >>> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that >> period >>> or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what >>> mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. >> Someone >>> claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out >> as >>> being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the >> PDP-1, >>> which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until >>> '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was >>> first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. >>> >>> The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased >> a >>> Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694650.pdf) >>> >>> And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system >>> in '67: >>> >> http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.pdf >>> >>> Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first >>> Arpanet nodes). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban >> wrote: >>> >>>> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of >> spacewar >>>> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which >> are >>>> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: >>>> http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html >>>> >>>> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: >>>>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a >> listing >>>> of >>>>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the >>>> PDP-1 >>>>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at >> Stanford >>>>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the >> DECUS >>>>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been >>>>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was >>>>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). >>>>> >>>>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I >>>>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything >>>>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Marty >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 15:06:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:06:10 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> On 12/24/2012 03:32 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok batting a thousand today. Meters display ac voltages as rms. Some meters do, some meters don't. > Peak to peak rms doesn't make a whole lot of sense I guess. Apologies. They are mutually exclusive...either you're measuring the peak value or the RMS value. They are different. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rickb at bensene.com Mon Dec 24 15:07:24 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:07:24 -0800 Subject: Spacewar hardware? Message-ID: <000101cde21a$ab9305fe$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Though not a direct copy of the original Spacewar, it is very clear that it was inspired by Bushnell playing Spacewar on various computers. -----Original Message----- From: Martin Goldberg [wgungfu at gmail.com] Received: Monday, 24 Dec 2012, 12:33pm To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only [cctech at classiccmp.org] CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Subject: Re: Spacewar hardware? On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Jay wrote > > > > > > I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. > > > > Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade > version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. > > Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) > that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them > "Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items > today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. > > Rick Bensene > That's actually not a version of Spacewar, nor is it based directly off the game. It was "inspired by," and created by Nolan Bushnell and Ted Dabney. The hardware is a custom TTL based state machine (no software). They licensed it to Nutting Associates in Mountain View. We have the full story in our book: http://amzn.com/0985597402 -- Marty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 24 15:31:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:31:12 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50D8C9A0.201@sydex.com> On 12/24/2012 12:04 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > On 12/23/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: a VGA horizontal scan rate is 31.5 khz. Off the top of my head I > don't know what a 5151s is, about 22-23 khz allowing for overscan. A > Tandy 2000 or AT & T 6300s is about 25 khz. A vga has 480 lines of > resolution (although there is that 400 line mode, which could > possibly mean vga monitors are dual frequency. Anyone?). 400 is > closer to 348 then 480. Th 5151 is (IIRC) 50Hz and 18KHz--pretty darned far from the 30KHz required. Why you can toast your monitor is made obvious if you have a look at the schematic of the 5151--there's no free-running oscillator in the the thing generating deflection timing. That is, there's no synchroguide (anyone remember that term?) type of circuit--the H and V sync signals pretty much drive the deflection amps with whatever you deign to put into them. It's quite possible to blow a 5151 FBT by either screwing up the CRTC programming or hooking the monitor to something that it was never intended to work with. If you don't believe me, and you have a system with an MDA/MGA output, I'll be happy to furnish a program that will render your 5151 permanently dark. > C: I'm sure you're relating your success w/that monitor accurately, > but is it a multiscanner? I can't even understand how a ttl video > signal is compatible w/a monitor that expects 1 volt peak to peak > rms. (BTW, the Acer that I'm talking about is a widescreen LCD monitor). Although full saturation of any color is +1.0V every monitor I tried won't care if it's +5--nothing bad happens other than getting all saturated colors. If you're squeamish, you can grab a handful of resistors and work out a voltage divider--it's not rocket science. BTW, there's a VGA hookup diagram here: http://m24.museodelcomputer.org/docs/video_converter.pdf I imagine that a few components will give the full 16 colors on VGA. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 24 15:37:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:37:08 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> On 12/24/2012 01:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > They are mutually exclusive...either you're measuring the peak value > or the RMS value. They are different. And a lot of multimeters do a darned poor job of measuring RMS for anything other than a continuously recurring sinusoidal waveform. You could have the statistical RMS error of a cluster of P-P readings performed by a monkey, I suppose. :) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 16:49:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:49:06 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D8DBE2.8000400@neurotica.com> On 12/24/2012 04:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> They are mutually exclusive...either you're measuring the peak value >> or the RMS value. They are different. > > And a lot of multimeters do a darned poor job of measuring RMS for > anything other than a continuously recurring sinusoidal waveform. Yes...the "I'm not doing real work, so this is good enough for me" garbage. I've taken to bringing along grownup equipment whenever I'm going to any sort of technical gathering, because of all the crap I see people toting along. "Well this one was soooo much cheaper! That means I was a SMART SHOPPER!" *BANG* [smoke rises from PCB] "Oh, I guess that meter wasn't such a good buy after all." > You could have the statistical RMS error of a cluster of P-P readings > performed by a monkey, I suppose. :) Hey, I think that would work! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 17:32:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <1356379877.61848.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121224113736.C55609@shell.lmi.net> <20121224114013.W55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356379877.61848.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121224153039.K55609@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: the consumer had to be told that they wanted moderately useful stuff > for low prices??? No, they were told that "it's all the same, BUY THE CHEAPEST" > It's simple economics. Sure companies like Microshaft work hard to try It's no longer MicroSloth? "MicroShaft" is pretty good! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 17:41:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:41:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121224154033.L55609@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok batting a thousand today. Meters display ac voltages as rms. Peak to > peak rms doesn't make a whole lot of sense I guess. Apologies. Not to worry! although it WAS funny! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 17:55:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 18:55:24 -0500 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50D8EB6C.8070305@neurotica.com> On 12/24/2012 03:43 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I don't know their impedance; they may be 50-ohm. > [...] > The cables I have (not made by DEC) are realy, clearly marked with > "50 OHM CHEAPERNET 10BASE2". I got them with a QBus to CI and CI to SCSI > setup. I handed the CI stuff, with the exception of the cables, to a > friend some years ago. So I can't be more speciffic. Yup. Ethernet cables. > I suspect CI cables are just ordinary 50 Ohm coax, but heavily > overspeced in best DEC tradition. ;-) I agree (now) that they're most likely 50-ohm, but that particular coax is anything but ordinary. ;) I'm sure they over-specced it like crazy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 24 18:32:29 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:32:29 -0800 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D87CDA.5000709@bitsavers.org> References: <50D7E3B7.4030107@charter.net> <20121224075011.34d28038@asrock.bcwi.net> <50D87CDA.5000709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121224163229.5b386a0c@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 08:03:38 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/24/12 7:50 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > BTW: My PDP-12 was donated to and is archived at the Computer > > History Museum... > > > > ..along with all of his PDP-8/12 software, which is on the list of > things to be imaged. > > I'm hoping I can get back to some serious archiving in 2013. I'm > currently working on about 1000 floppies that I sent to Don Maslin in > 2000 that weren't part of the tape backup from 1997 that I already > recovered. It would be terrific if we could get to my/CHM's PDP-8/12 software. Since I was the DECUS Coordinator for the PDP-12 for several years, my software collection included the entire DECUS PDP-8 and PDP-12 Libraries. In addition, when DEC decided to drop the "DIAL" operating system for the PDP-12, they gave me the complete source code for "DIAL" (IIRC, it's on multiple LINC tapes...) Cheers, Lyle ---- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 24 18:47:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:47:21 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8DBE2.8000400@neurotica.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> <50D8DBE2.8000400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D8F799.6020808@sydex.com> On 12/24/2012 02:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes...the "I'm not doing real work, so this is good enough for me" > garbage. I've taken to bringing along grownup equipment whenever I'm > going to any sort of technical gathering, because of all the crap I see > people toting along. "Well this one was soooo much cheaper! That means > I was a SMART SHOPPER!" It's much worse than that--just go to YouTube and search for "Free Energy" or "Magnet Motor" for tons of examples of how a cheap DMM can be misused. "Hey, I'm getting 150% efficiency out of this because my DMM says so." Not quite as bad as those (and they're there) who use voltage as a measure of power. It makes the head hurt. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 18:53:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 19:53:53 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8F799.6020808@sydex.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> <50D8DBE2.8000400@neurotica.com> <50D8F799.6020808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50D8F921.5080602@neurotica.com> On 12/24/2012 07:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes...the "I'm not doing real work, so this is good enough for me" >> garbage. I've taken to bringing along grownup equipment whenever I'm >> going to any sort of technical gathering, because of all the crap I see >> people toting along. "Well this one was soooo much cheaper! That means >> I was a SMART SHOPPER!" > > It's much worse than that--just go to YouTube and search for "Free > Energy" or "Magnet Motor" for tons of examples of how a cheap DMM can > be misused. "Hey, I'm getting 150% efficiency out of this because my > DMM says so." Ohhhhhhhmigod.. > Not quite as bad as those (and they're there) who use voltage as a > measure of power. It makes the head hurt. This is exactly what P.T. Barnum was talking about. Unbelievable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 24 20:01:49 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 18:01:49 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8F799.6020808@sydex.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> <50D8DBE2.8000400@neurotica.com> <50D8F799.6020808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6AFF38CE-90C7-4242-8B54-59178F286049@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Dec 24, at 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/24/2012 02:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Yes...the "I'm not doing real work, so this is good enough for me" >> garbage. I've taken to bringing along grownup equipment whenever I'm >> going to any sort of technical gathering, because of all the crap >> I see >> people toting along. "Well this one was soooo much cheaper! That >> means >> I was a SMART SHOPPER!" > > It's much worse than that--just go to YouTube and search for "Free > Energy" or "Magnet Motor" for tons of examples of how a cheap DMM > can be misused. "Hey, I'm getting 150% efficiency out of this > because my DMM says so." > > Not quite as bad as those (and they're there) who use voltage as a > measure of power. It makes the head hurt. A local newspaper here ran an article a few years ago about a basement-tinkerer who had invented a 'free energy' source. He had a box filled with wires and electrical doo-hickeys and claimed that more energy came out than went in, based on calculations and measurements from meters hanging off the thing (he must know what he's talking about). It had been examined by "experts" and nobody could explain to him what was going on or show him that he was wrong. Of course, the experts were flummoxed, as opposed to him being incapable or deaf to understanding. Of course, he wouldn't let anyone examine the internals as they could steal his design. And of course, all the big boys (the power companies and so on) were marginalising him because it would put them out of business. I think he was sincere in his belief, but I'm guessing he didn't understand the concept of 'power factor'. The better question is why did the newspaper devote space to it. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 24 20:26:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 18:26:51 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <6AFF38CE-90C7-4242-8B54-59178F286049@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> <50D8CB04.30502@sydex.com> <50D8DBE2.8000400@neurotica.com> <50D8F799.6020808@sydex.com> <6AFF38CE-90C7-4242-8B54-59178F286049@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <50D90EEB.8030500@sydex.com> On 12/24/2012 06:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The better question is why did the newspaper devote space to it. Well, a lot of local newspapers hire grads fresh out of journalism classes who might vaguely remember something about a potato and a paperclip and something else to make a battery. Newspapers purchase a lot of their content nowadays off the wire, the same way that local TV news does. The image of a grizzled old Editor-in-Chief growling and snarling at the reporters is a thing of the past. The number of spelling and grammar errors in the local paper makes me wonder if the copy editors even read the flippin' birdcage liner. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 21:28:00 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 03:28:00 +0000 Subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics In-Reply-To: <20121224153039.K55609@shell.lmi.net> References: <993222796-1356138784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-742279968-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50D5108A.9090001@sydex.com> <20121222100400.25dd859c931d6357559236ec@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D5F129.60903@sydex.com> <50D60587.2090900@neurotica.com> <1356204885.92407.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D60CF6.4030805@neurotica.com> <1356377286.66950.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121224113736.C55609@shell.lmi.net> <20121224114013.W55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356379877.61848.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121224153039.K55609@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1234598809-1356406078-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-508258789-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I actually had someone wondering if I knew their real name once. I switched between microshaft (also for radioshaft) and macrosoft which was more technically accurate. Funny list of acronyms here http://www.citehr.com/72094-nick-names-some-hitech-companies-funny.html -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:32:16 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: the consumer had to be told that they wanted moderately useful stuff > for low prices??? No, they were told that "it's all the same, BUY THE CHEAPEST" > It's simple economics. Sure companies like Microshaft work hard to try It's no longer MicroSloth? "MicroShaft" is pretty good! From hendrikvandewerken at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 19:18:53 2012 From: hendrikvandewerken at gmail.com (Hendrik van de Werken) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 02:18:53 +0100 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 19:11:44 Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 12/23/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> I have an Eagle 5151 clone. In my mind a far easier solution then vga. >So you have a 6300 or M24 that you've used the Eagle 5151 clone with? >I'm surprised that it worked The AT&T 6300 can be operated with a monochrome monitor like a 5151 or a Hercules monitor. You have to install an MDA-card on the system bus and connect it to the mono monitor. Maybe that is the way the 5151 of Chris Tofu works with the 6300. If you want to operate only with mda you have to set a dipswitch on the motherboard so it starts up in mono mode and not in "color mode" of the Indigeneous Board. I used both monitors at the same time with software I wrote and --for example-- the Microsoft Quick C compiler, which has the standard output through the Indigenious card and the compiler messages on the mono monitor. Hendrik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:16:15 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 02:16:15 -0200 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D8EB6C.8070305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <80D05819CB114D0DB652BCA31E2269E6@tababook> > I agree (now) that they're most likely 50-ohm, but that particular coax > is anything but ordinary. ;) I'm sure they over-specced it like crazy. Newer coax has less losses and a better speed factor. Maybe it was overengineered to a better spec... From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 22:31:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 23:31:41 -0500 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <80D05819CB114D0DB652BCA31E2269E6@tababook> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D8EB6C.8070305@neurotica.com> <80D05819CB114D0DB652BCA31E2269E6@tababook> Message-ID: <50D92C2D.6030007@neurotica.com> On 12/24/2012 11:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I agree (now) that they're most likely 50-ohm, but that particular >> coax is anything but ordinary. ;) I'm sure they over-specced it like >> crazy. > > Newer coax has less losses and a better speed factor. Maybe it was > overengineered to a better spec... Probably. ;) Just getting it working isn't the issue; I have one system running via CI now (a VAX-7000) and I can get others up on the cluster pretty easily with some other coax. I'm specifically looking for "authentic" CI cable, though, for a historically-correct setup. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 24 22:37:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:37:05 -0700 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <80D05819CB114D0DB652BCA31E2269E6@tababook> References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D8EB6C.8070305@neurotica.com> <80D05819CB114D0DB652BCA31E2269E6@tababook> Message-ID: <50D92D71.2040905@brouhaha.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Newer coax has less losses and a better speed factor. Maybe it was > overengineered to a better spec... For short distances, i.e., tens of meters rather than hundreds, RG-174/U will work fine. It is more flexible and very inexpensive. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 24 22:39:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 20:39:59 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D92E1F.6010309@sydex.com> On 12/24/2012 05:18 PM, Hendrik van de Werken wrote: > The AT&T 6300 can be operated with a monochrome monitor like a 5151 > or a Hercules monitor. You have to install an MDA-card on the system > bus and connect it to the mono monitor. Maybe that is the way the > 5151 of Chris Tofu works with the 6300. If you want to operate only > with mda you have to set a dipswitch on the motherboard so it starts > up in mono mode and not in "color mode" of the Indigenous Board. I > used both monitors at the same time with software I wrote and --for > example-- the Microsoft Quick C compiler, which has the standard > output through the Indigenous card and the compiler messages on the > mono monitor. I did mention using an MDA card, but wasn't sure about BIOS support for the MDA. At any rate, you've verified that a 5151 won't work with the "native" display adapter. It's interesting that you managed to install an MDA with the "built in" adapter; maybe there's still some life in my old Herc Plus card. Does the two-monitor setup work for all revisions of the BIOS? Does it work if you have the EDA card also installed? All the best, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 23:11:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:11:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> On 12/23/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I have an Eagle 5151 clone. In my mind a far easier solution then vga. On Tue, 25 Dec 2012, Hendrik van de Werken wrote: > connect it to the mono monitor. Maybe that is the way the 5151 of Chris > Tofu works with the 6300. Chris Tofu did NOT say that he HAD used a 5151 with a 6300! He said "in my mind a far easier solution" "IN HIS MIND" I think that he was SPECULATING that it WOULD BE better, based on VOLTAGE. Chuck pointed out that FREQUENCY was more significant, and could DESTROY a 5151, and that voltage [if it WERE a problem] needed but a resistor network. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 03:33:17 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 09:33:17 -0000 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8F921.5080602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9DAC07DED922400283E9C36ADD21C1F6@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 25 December 2012 00:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AT&T 6300 mono monitor > > > On 12/24/2012 07:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Yes...the "I'm not doing real work, so this is good > enough for me" > >> garbage. I've taken to bringing along grownup equipment > whenever I'm > >> going to any sort of technical gathering, because of all > the crap I > >> see people toting along. "Well this one was soooo much cheaper! > >> That means I was a SMART SHOPPER!" > > > > It's much worse than that--just go to YouTube and search for "Free > > Energy" or "Magnet Motor" for tons of examples of how a > cheap DMM can > > be misused. "Hey, I'm getting 150% efficiency out of this > because my > > DMM says so." > > Ohhhhhhhmigod.. > > > Not quite as bad as those (and they're there) who use voltage as a > > measure of power. It makes the head hurt. > > This is exactly what P.T. Barnum was talking about. > > Unbelievable. > I don't think so. Hows this for a lovely bit of stage magic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9xwtTNRak8 Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 06:11:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 10:11:30 -0200 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables References: <50D74F30.1050105@neurotica.com> <20121223222001.7f7ee064bcf7d152b2e87ee9@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D78C1B.2090607@neurotica.com> <20121224094312.fc7106b41321ca069fb03cac@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50D8EB6C.8070305@neurotica.com> <80D05819CB114D0DB652BCA31E2269E6@tababook> <50D92D71.2040905@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <17F805245E454E2DB60874D4F8DD89C9@tababook> Irrelevant knowledge: It is expensive as hell in Brazil. Here, the cheap cable is RG058 (not cellular type) :o( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 2:37 AM Subject: Re: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Newer coax has less losses and a better speed factor. Maybe it was >> overengineered to a better spec... > For short distances, i.e., tens of meters rather than hundreds, RG-174/U > will work fine. It is more flexible and very inexpensive. > > Eric > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 25 09:19:07 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 10:19:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201212251519.KAA12008@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Peak to peak rms doesn't make a whole lot of sense I guess. > They are mutually exclusive...either you're measuring the peak value > or the RMS value. They are different. Actually, the peak value equals the RMS value for certain waveforms. It's even possible for the peak-to-peak value to equal the RMS value, but - I think! - not for waveforms that cross through zero. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From db at db.net Tue Dec 25 09:29:08 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 10:29:08 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <201212251519.KAA12008@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356380147.69492.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356381156.93047.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8C3C2.3070808@neurotica.com> <201212251519.KAA12008@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121225152908.GA63286@night.db.net> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 10:19:07AM -0500, Mouse wrote: > >> Peak to peak rms doesn't make a whole lot of sense I guess. > > They are mutually exclusive...either you're measuring the peak value > > or the RMS value. They are different. > > Actually, the peak value equals the RMS value for certain waveforms. > It's even possible for the peak-to-peak value to equal the RMS value, > but - I think! - not for waveforms that cross through zero. http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/ - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Dec 25 12:37:17 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 18:37:17 +0000 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2526C564@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Jochen writes: > I suspect CI cables are just ordinary 50 Ohm coax, but heavily > overspeced in best DEC tradition. ;-) Dave writes: > I agree (now) that they're most likely 50-ohm, but that particular > coax is anything but ordinary. ;) I'm sure they over-specced it like crazy. OK I found some hanks (chopped up from computer room removal) of old blue "thick" CI cable. I was actually gonna take it home and use it for some recabling of my radio station anyway when this subject came up on cctalk. Externally it is 0.4" like many RG-8 and RG-213 types. Internally the center conductor is 11AWG, silver plated solid copper. Yep, silver plated. The dielectric is 0.238" diameter polyethelyne foam. Again, a little smaller diameter than usual for RG-8 types, but I think in ratio with the inner conductor being smaller and the properties of foamed poly, gives 50 ohm impedance. Then, the amazing thing is what's outside the dielectric. There is a layer of foil, a THICK layer of braid, then another layer of foil, then another THICK layer of braid. I don't think I've ever seen a RG-8 type coax with 4 layer shielding. Most RG-213 types have a single thinner layer (and some have foil). I don't think the braid is silver plated, I think it's just tinned, may test that out later. If you wanted to put crimp-on N or UHF connectors onto this stuff, the funny dielectric diameter might cause some heartache, as could the extra thickness of the double braids. I have some hanks of "reddish-orange" DEC Thicknet Ethernet cables too, will check out what's inside them. I seem to recall them being solid polyethelyne dielectric but it's been more than a decade since I cut into any. Tim N3QE From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 13:05:27 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 11:05:27 -0800 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> References: , ,,<503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, ,,, ,,<503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave Did you get the M20 on ebay?If so I find it interesting that your having problems with the 6300.It is too bad that the monitor got damaged.I'm told that the signals are compatable between this monitorand the M20's monitor. The connectors are completely different.On the 6300 monitor, is the tube busted? If so, these arerelatively easy to find a similar size to fit. Even if not, a temporarysetup can be made to use a different tube.Dwight > Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:27:57 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > On 08/30/2012 05:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > > > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > >> > >> On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >>> The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was based on the 68K > >>> CPM that was mostly C code. > >>> If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the > >>> monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a > >>> replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work. > >>> One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232. > >>> I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but > >>> it can use up to 512K. > >>> There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run. > >>> Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in > >>> our group get it. > >> > >> I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips > >> and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring > >> it back to life somehow. > >> > > Hi Dave There is quite a bit of stuff on line. If it uses the 360 drive ( rated at 320 forthe M20 ). We can transfer a lot of software to it from archives.We have many manuals, some in Italian but most have English versions.We have a schamatic that is mostly correct.Do a search and you see it all.Dwight > > Cool. Thanks! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 13:34:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 14:34:20 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: References: , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> On 12/25/2012 02:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Dave Did you get the M20 on ebay? Hi! Merry xmas! Yes I did, and amusingly, that same seller actually had TWO, and a local friend of mine got the other one. :-) > If so I find it interesting that your having problems with the 6300. I'm not sure why that would be interesting, but it is what it is. :) > It is too bad that the monitor got damaged. Yes. I'm not even sure HOW it happened. It has been in a box for many years, since I received it from a friend. It took a truck trip, then sat in a storage locker, then sat in my garage, then took a truck trip up here, sat here for awhile, and I unpacked it just a few days ago. The outer case is perfect, which I was pleased to see, but then I noticed a rattle when I turned it over, and then I saw the telltale "splat" on the inside of the CRT face. :-( The machine is in mint condition, as is the keyboard. I'm hoping to get it running in an all-original setup. These little Olivetti machines are amazingly well-built and I really like their style. > I'm told that the signals are compatable between this > monitorand the M20's monitor. The connectors are completely > different.On the 6300 monitor, is the tube busted? If so, these > arerelatively easy to find a similar size to fit. Even if not, a > temporarysetup can be made to use a different tube.Dwight Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 14:42:30 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:42:30 -0800 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> References: , , ,,<503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , ,,, , ,,<503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , ,,, ,,, ,,<503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: The schematic for the M20 is on the web someplace. I think that itis on Chris Grossler's site. It has a few differences between models butthe edge connector should be there on one of the last pages.As I recall, the M20 also supplied the power for the monitor. I'mnot sure if that is the same for the 6300. What memory cards did the M20 come with?Dwight > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 14:34:20 -0500 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > On 12/25/2012 02:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Dave Did you get the M20 on ebay? > > Hi! Merry xmas! Yes I did, and amusingly, that same seller actually > had TWO, and a local friend of mine got the other one. :-) > > > If so I find it interesting that your having problems with the 6300. > > I'm not sure why that would be interesting, but it is what it is. :) > > > It is too bad that the monitor got damaged. > > Yes. I'm not even sure HOW it happened. It has been in a box for > many years, since I received it from a friend. It took a truck trip, > then sat in a storage locker, then sat in my garage, then took a truck > trip up here, sat here for awhile, and I unpacked it just a few days > ago. The outer case is perfect, which I was pleased to see, but then I > noticed a rattle when I turned it over, and then I saw the telltale > "splat" on the inside of the CRT face. :-( > > The machine is in mint condition, as is the keyboard. I'm hoping to > get it running in an all-original setup. These little Olivetti machines > are amazingly well-built and I really like their style. > > > I'm told that the signals are compatable between this > > monitorand the M20's monitor. The connectors are completely > > different.On the 6300 monitor, is the tube busted? If so, these > > arerelatively easy to find a similar size to fit. Even if not, a > > temporarysetup can be made to use a different tube.Dwight > > Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will > drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? > I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have > the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are > pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 14:49:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> On 12/25/2012 03:42 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > The schematic for the M20 is on the web someplace. I think that itis > on Chris Grossler's site. It has a few differences between models > butthe edge connector should be there on one of the last pages.As I > recall, the M20 also supplied the power for the monitor. Excellent. Thanks for the info! > I'mnot sure if that is the same for the 6300. The 6300's monochrome monitor draws power along the same cable from the computer. The color monitor is separately powered. > What memory cards did the M20 come with? I don't know; I've not yet dug into it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 15:06:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:06:37 -0500 Subject: VAX 7700 CPUs, CI cables In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2526C564@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2526C564@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50DA155D.9060306@neurotica.com> On 12/25/2012 01:37 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > OK I found some hanks (chopped up from computer room removal) of old > blue "thick" CI cable. I was actually gonna take it home and use it > for some recabling of my radio station anyway when this subject came > up on cctalk. > > Externally it is 0.4" like many RG-8 and RG-213 types. > > Internally the center conductor is 11AWG, silver plated solid copper. > Yep, silver plated. > > The dielectric is 0.238" diameter polyethelyne foam. Again, a little > smaller diameter than usual for RG-8 types, but I think in ratio with > the inner conductor being smaller and the properties of foamed poly, > gives 50 ohm impedance. > > Then, the amazing thing is what's outside the dielectric. There is a > layer of foil, a THICK layer of braid, then another layer of foil, > then another THICK layer of braid. I don't think I've ever seen a > RG-8 type coax with 4 layer shielding. Most RG-213 types have a > single thinner layer (and some have foil). I don't think the braid is > silver plated, I think it's just tinned, may test that out later. Isn't RG-214 (not a typo, RG-214) double-shielded? That's great stuff. I wonder if it's similar to that. It's a shame that stuff got chopped up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 15:42:32 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 13:42:32 -0800 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> References: , , , ,,<503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , ,,, , , ,,<503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , ,,, , ,,, , ,,<503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> ,,, <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , , , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> , <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave The cover comes off by just the two flat head screws.You'll find the enginering on the case to be well done. The reason I said it was interesting was the connection betweenthe M20 and the 6300.There was even a compatability board for the 6300 to run M20software.Dwight > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0500 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > On 12/25/2012 03:42 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > The schematic for the M20 is on the web someplace. I think that itis > > on Chris Grossler's site. It has a few differences between models > > butthe edge connector should be there on one of the last pages.As I > > recall, the M20 also supplied the power for the monitor. > > Excellent. Thanks for the info! > > > I'mnot sure if that is the same for the 6300. > > The 6300's monochrome monitor draws power along the same cable from > the computer. The color monitor is separately powered. > > > What memory cards did the M20 come with? > > I don't know; I've not yet dug into it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 15:52:15 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 19:52:15 -0200 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 References: , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <60D3FC6D53E2434E9A346FE1A66064A7@tababook> > Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will > drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? > I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have > the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are > pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 16:14:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 17:14:19 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <60D3FC6D53E2434E9A346FE1A66064A7@tababook> References: , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <60D3FC6D53E2434E9A346FE1A66064A7@tababook> Message-ID: <50DA253B.8080707@neurotica.com> On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will >> drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? >> I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have >> the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are >> pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. > > And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is! Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 16:25:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 20:25:23 -0200 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 References: , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <60D3FC6D53E2434E9A346FE1A66064A7@tababook> <50DA253B.8080707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6CD8A963B3B245D4BC1433D847D6DD5C@tababook> Any monocromatic CRT of same phisical size will fit. They are mostly equal! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:14 PM Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will >>> drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? >>> I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have >>> the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are >>> pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. >> >> And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is! > > Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 16:31:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 17:31:50 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <6CD8A963B3B245D4BC1433D847D6DD5C@tababook> References: , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <60D3FC6D53E2434E9A346FE1A66064A7@tababook> <50DA253B.8080707@neurotica.com> <6CD8A963B3B245D4BC1433D847D6DD5C@tababook> Message-ID: <50DA2956.6010506@neurotica.com> Yes I'm aware of that. I just plain *don't have any*, though. -Dave On 12/25/2012 05:25 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Any monocromatic CRT of same phisical size will fit. They are mostly > equal! > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > >> On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will >>>> drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? >>>> I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have >>>> the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are >>>> pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. >>> >>> And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is! >> >> Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 25 18:54:16 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:54:16 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? Message-ID: <50DA4AB8.9040707@bitsavers.org> Is there an image archive of software for the Displaywriter somewhere? Someone donated one to the Computer History Museum recently, and I went through our archives and have only come up with a bunch of versions of the CE disk and a single TEXT PACK 1 diskette. I did image what we have, and put it up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/Displaywriter One thing I discovered was you HAVE to degauss the floppy before cloning the CE diskette. It expects tracks 37, 41 and 43 to be blank or it hangs. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 19:58:01 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 17:58:01 -0800 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DA2956.6010506@neurotica.com> References: , , ,,<503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , ,,, , ,,<503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , ,,, ,,, ,,<503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com>,<60D3FC6D53E2434E9A346FE1A66064A7@tababook> <50DA253B.8080707@neurotica.com>, <6CD8A963B3B245D4BC1433D847D6DD5C@tababook>, <50DA2956.6010506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I found the connector pins in the manual.It says J5 and the numbers run from 11 to 30?They are top and bottom. 11-29 odd are all grounds.12 HSYNC14 +12V16 B/W Video18 GND20 VSYNC22 +12V24 BLUE26 GREEN28 RED30 Spare In order to do color, you need to have color RAM cards. Theyhave parallel to serial chips that are used to move the video.Each of the three expansions would have info for the three colors.With all three cards supporting color, you can have up to 8 colors.Dwight > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 17:31:50 -0500 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > > Yes I'm aware of that. I just plain *don't have any*, though. > > -Dave > > On 12/25/2012 05:25 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > > Any monocromatic CRT of same phisical size will fit. They are mostly > > equal! > > > > --- > > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > > > > >> On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>>> Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will > >>>> drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter? > >>>> I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have > >>>> the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are > >>>> pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that. > >>> > >>> And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is! > >> > >> Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around. > >> > >> -Dave > >> > >> -- > >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >> New Kensington, PA > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:43:03 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 22:43:03 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D8C2C7.9050007@ubanproductions.com> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <50D7E8BB.9050103@ubanproductions.com> <50D8C2C7.9050007@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Because as per the original request, I'm looking to document versions of Spacewar from the later half of the 60s ('65-'69). On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > As I said, I was going by printset dates and circuit board dates, so > given that time is required to produce a product, it may well be that > the first machine was not actually shipped until 1970. > > What is special about December 31, 1969? > > --tom > > > On 12/24/12 8:02 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > Are you sure? My understanding (from all the documentation I've seen) is > > that the PDS-1 was released in 1970? > > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Tom Uban > wrote: > > > >> Actually, the print set for the PDS-1 is dated from the late 60s and the > >> first model of the machine which I did own and later traded to another > >> collector was a late 60s vintage. Mine, the PDS-1D, is from the early > 70s. > >> > >> --tom > >> > >> On 12/23/12 2:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >>> Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the > >> 1960s. > >>> As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on > >>> various hardware during the 1960s. :) > >>> > >>> So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen > any > >>> direct ports outside of DEC equipment. > >>> > >>> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that > >> period > >>> or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what > >>> mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. > >> Someone > >>> claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out > >> as > >>> being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the > >> PDP-1, > >>> which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel > until > >>> '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans > was > >>> first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. > >>> > >>> The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah > purchased > >> a > >>> Univac 1108 in 1967 ( > http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/694650.pdf) > >>> > >>> And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics > system > >>> in '67: > >>> > >> > http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.pdf > >>> > >>> Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the > first > >>> Arpanet nodes). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of > >> spacewar > >>>> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which > >> are > >>>> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: > >>>> http://members.iglou.com/thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/Image10.html > >>>> > >>>> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >>>>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a > >> listing > >>>> of > >>>>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the > >>>> PDP-1 > >>>>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at > >> Stanford > >>>>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the > >> DECUS > >>>>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically > been > >>>>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which > was > >>>>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). > >>>>> > >>>>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? > I > >>>>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on > anything > >>>>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Marty > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:47:08 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 22:47:08 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <000101cde21a$ab9305fe$050aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <000101cde21a$ab9305fe$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: Certainly, as I said, he and Dabney were inspired by the PDP-6 version of Spacewar they saw at SAIL. They were originally going to go the mini-computer route and have an actual copy of Spacewar running on a coin modded mini, which turned out to be too expensive to have mass produced. So they decided to a game loosely inspired by Spacewar via TTL based state machine after Ted designed their first spot motion circuitry. On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Though not a direct copy of the original Spacewar, it is very clear that > it was inspired by Bushnell playing Spacewar on various computers. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Goldberg [wgungfu at gmail.com] > Received: Monday, 24 Dec 2012, 12:33pm > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only [cctech at classiccmp.org] > CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts [ > cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Subject: Re: Spacewar hardware? > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Jay wrote > > > > > > > > > I also recall their being a free-standing game version of the thing. > > > > > > > Nolan Bushnell, of Atari fame, built what he felt could be an arcade > > version of Spacewar in 1970. He built it in his daughter's bedroom. > > > > Bushnell licensed the design to a company (I can't remember the name) > > that ended up building about 1500 or so of them, calling them > > "Computer Space". They are extremely sought-after collector's items > > today. I have no idea what hardware was in the machines. > > > > Rick Bensene > > > > > That's actually not a version of Spacewar, nor is it based directly off the > game. It was "inspired by," and created by Nolan Bushnell and Ted Dabney. > The hardware is a custom TTL based state machine (no software). They > licensed it to Nutting Associates in Mountain View. We have the full story > in our book: > > http://amzn.com/0985597402 > > > > -- > Marty > -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:50:33 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 22:50:33 -0600 Subject: U Utah in the 1960s In-Reply-To: <50D86A39.5010105@bitsavers.org> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> <50D86A39.5010105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks Al, appreciate the response. As established, that would of course put it too far out of the period I was requesting though. On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/24/12 6:40 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > >> Martin Goldberg asked: >> >> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that >>> period >>> or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what >>> mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. >>> >> >> > The device which was sold as the Evans and Sutherland LDS-1 was the best > known calligraphic display developed at the U of U. It was attached to a > PDP-10. > > > > -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 22:59:50 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 22:59:50 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <000101cde21a$ab9305fe$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: How about this, has anyone seen (or heard of) Spacewar running on a Univac 1108 or an IBM 7094 in the 60s? -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 23:00:35 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 23:00:35 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <50D7E738.5090802@Wild-Hare.com> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <50D7E738.5090802@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: Bruce, that's great info, thanks. If you can find a copy please let me know. On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Bruce wrote: > Data General Nova computer, 1968, Spacewar demonstration program at the > FJCC (Fall Joint Computer Conference). > > (I am still scrounging for a copy of the original version...) > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > > > > > On 12/23/2012 1:18 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > >> Thanks Tom, appreciate the repsonse but the PDS-1 wasn't out in the 1960s. >> As mentioned, I'm trying to compile a listing of ports of Spacewar on >> various hardware during the 1960s. :) >> >> So far during that time period (mid through late 60s), I haven't seen any >> direct ports outside of DEC equipment. >> >> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that period >> or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track down what >> mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy displays. Someone >> claims to have played Spacewar there in '65, but so far it's panned out as >> being highly unlikely, since up to that time it only existed on the PDP-1, >> which Utah didn't have. The PDP-6 version wasn't created by Russel until >> '66 at SAIL (their PDP-6 was installed in June '66). Likewise, Evans was >> first recruited in '65 to start their CS program. >> >> The earliest documentation I've been able to find is that Utah purchased a >> Univac 1108 in 1967 (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/**fulltext/u2/694650.pdf >> ) >> >> And they were just starting to plan building a 1108/PDP-8 graphics system >> in '67: >> http://content.lib.utah.edu/**utils/getfile/collection/** >> uspace/id/2332/filename/2031.**pdf >> >> Likewise they had a PDP-10 in the very late 60s (used as one of the first >> Arpanet nodes). >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tom Uban >> wrote: >> >> I do not know that it was technically a "port", but a version of spacewar >>> runs on the Imlac PDS-1 vector graphics computer. I know of two which are >>> still in running condition. Mine is a PDS-1D as seen here: >>> http://members.iglou.com/**thunderbird/vcf/vcf-Pages/**Image10.html >>> >>> On 12/22/12 3:07 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: >>> >>>> Hoping some of the people here can help, I'm trying to compile a listing >>>> >>> of >>> >>>> hardware that versions of the Spacewar code were ported to after the >>>> >>> PDP-1 >>> >>>> during the 1960s. There was the PDP-6 version which was done at Stanford >>>> SAIL, and there were the PDP-7 and 8 versions which appeared in the >>>> DECUS >>>> catalog in the early 70s (which means they could have technically been >>>> done in the very late 60s), and the early 70s PDP-10 version (which was >>>> just a port of the PDP-6 version). >>>> >>>> Is anyone aware of any non DEC hardware it was ported to in the 60s? I >>>> haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that it was on anything >>>> other than DEC hardware in the 60s. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marty >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 23:21:06 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 23:21:06 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <000101cde21a$ab9305fe$050aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: And to add to that, does anyone know of any versions from the late 60s done in Fortran or Algol? On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > How about this, has anyone seen (or heard of) Spacewar running on a Univac > 1108 or an IBM 7094 in the 60s? > > > > > -- > Marty > -- Marty From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 13:02:25 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 14:02:25 -0500 Subject: Spacewar hardware? Message-ID: > From: Lyle Bickley > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 16:32:29 -0800 > Subject: Re: Spacewar hardware? Here is an image of me playing Spacewar on a PDP-12. I am the on on the right. http://www.rcsri.org/collection/pdp-12/spacewar.jpg -- Michael Thompson From JHMcCarthy at aol.com Tue Dec 25 18:12:31 2012 From: JHMcCarthy at aol.com (JHMcCarthy at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 19:12:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Continuous feed computer paper anyone? Message-ID: Kurt: Please respond directly to Stan Paddock's questions below. Thanks ---- Jud Justin (Jud) McCarthy 251 SW 9th Ave Boca Raton, FL 33486 Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 In a message dated 12/25/2012 2:00:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, stpaddock at sbcglobal.net writes: Jud, As you know we have two fully operational 1401 systems each with a 1403 printer. Each printer still has the same paper feed box they had when I started there 5 years ago. It is anmazing how far a box of paper goes when we come in one day a week and then some days we don't print at all. I hate to see the paper go to waste tho. How full is the box and what is the total cost shipped to Computer History Muesum 1401 North Shoreline Boulevard, Mountain View, CA 94043 Stan ----- Original Message ----- From: _JHMcCarthy at aol.com_ (mailto:JHMcCarthy at aol.com) To: _director at ctandi.org_ (mailto:director at ctandi.org) ; _Robgarn at mac.com_ (mailto:Robgarn at mac.com) ; _ed at ed-thelen.org_ (mailto:ed at ed-thelen.org) ; _stpaddock at sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:stpaddock at sbcglobal.net) Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 6:37 AM Subject: Fwd: Continuous feed computer paper anyone? FYI. Take action as appropriate. ---- Jud Justin (Jud) McCarthy 251 SW 9th Ave Boca Raton, FL 33486 Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 ____________________________________ From: _kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com_ (mailto:kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com) Reply-to: _cctech at classiccmp.org_ (mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org) To: _cctalk at classiccmp.org_ (mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org) Sent: 12/24/2012 4:02:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time Subj: Continuous feed computer paper anyone? Does anyone want any 14-7/8" X 11" continuous feed paper? I have a partial box full that I was going to just take to the recycling. Asking the cost of shipping plus a little extra for my troubles. These are over $50 a box new....How times have changed! Email me off the list. -Kurt From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Dec 25 21:54:43 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 19:54:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: buying an Atari ST Message-ID: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am looking at buying an Atari ST, witch model should I look into buying? --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2,? Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee?Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 25 22:33:36 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 20:33:36 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:54 PM -0800 12/25/12, Tom Sparks wrote: >I am looking at buying an Atari ST, witch model should I look into buying? The TT030 is nice very nice and takes a VGA monitor, but I rather wish I'd gone for a Falcon. Of course I got my TT030 nearly 15 years ago, it was hard to get then, I hate to think how hard it might be to get any Atari ST now, or what any Atari computer might cost. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Dec 25 23:15:46 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 05:15:46 +0000 Subject: U Utah in the 1960s In-Reply-To: References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> <50D86A39.5010105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25AAF44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Martin Goldberg Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 8:51 PM > On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 12/24/12 6:40 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >>> Martin Goldberg asked: >>>> On a related note, is anyone here a grad from U of Utah during that >>>> period or in contact with someone who was? I'm also trying to track >>>> down what mainframes/minis they had and what if any of them had xy >>>> displays. >> The device which was sold as the Evans and Sutherland LDS-1 was the >> best known calligraphic display developed at the U of U. It was >> attached to a PDP-10. > Thanks Al, appreciate the response. As established, that would of > course put it too far out of the period I was requesting though. How so? I don't see a date in Al's response, and the PDP-10 was introduced in 1967, so _prima facie_ you're in the right time frame. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 26 00:55:42 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 01:55:42 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <9DAC07DED922400283E9C36ADD21C1F6@G4UGMT41> References: <9DAC07DED922400283E9C36ADD21C1F6@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <50DA9F6E.60804@neurotica.com> On 12/25/2012 04:33 AM, Dave wrote: >>> Not quite as bad as those (and they're there) who use voltage as a >>> measure of power. It makes the head hurt. >> >> This is exactly what P.T. Barnum was talking about. >> >> Unbelievable. >> > > I don't think so. Hows this for a lovely bit of stage magic... > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9xwtTNRak8 Wow...I wonder how many people actually believe in that crap. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Dec 26 01:18:15 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 23:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spacewar hardware? References: Message-ID: <1356506295.50818.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Certainly, as I said, he and Dabney were inspired by the PDP-6 version of > Spacewar they saw at SAIL. They were originally going to go the > mini-computer route and have an actual copy of Spacewar running on a coin > modded mini, which turned out to be too expensive to have mass produced. it more of cost issue, the mini was not able to run the number of terminals that was needed to recover cost of the mini I think it was two terminals to break even, three to make a profit >So > they decided to a game loosely inspired by Spacewar via TTL based state > machine after Ted designed their first spot motion circuitry. tom From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 03:02:16 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:02:16 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DABD18.4000305@gmail.com> On 26/12/2012 03:54, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am looking at buying an Atari ST, witch model should I look into buying? > If you are talking "real" STs and you want to play games then stick with the older ranges that have the best games compatability. So a pre STE console models, say ST-F or FM or a Mega. I think almost all games will work in 512 Megs of RAM. Look for a 720k diskeette as many machines have only a 360k single sided drive which makes moving files to a PC interesting. > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, > Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, > Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter > Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 03:13:25 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:13:25 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DABFB5.9030300@gmail.com> On 26/12/2012 04:33, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:54 PM -0800 12/25/12, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I am looking at buying an Atari ST, witch model should I look into >> buying? > > The TT030 is nice very nice and takes a VGA monitor, but I rather wish > I'd gone for a Falcon. Of course I got my TT030 nearly 15 years ago, > it was hard to get then, I hate to think how hard it might be to get > any Atari ST now, or what any Atari computer might cost. > The "bog standard" STs, STFMs and STEs go for reasonable amounts in the UK. Until recently they were not even selling at all but the market seems to have picked up. They seem more expensive in the US. There is a TT-030 on ebay at present with a "buy-it-now" of $400 which seems slightly expensive to me as its standard. http://r.ebay.com/pJz2eC Sadly my MEGA died a while ago but I think my STE (4Megs RAM, interal laptop IDE hard drive) and TT-030 (with "hi-res graphics card) both work fine. > Zane > > > Dave G4UGM From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 26 04:56:50 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 23:56:50 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube Message-ID: Something to do in the quiet times between the Xmas pies and the festive cheer: Make a YouTube video on the most classic of my classic computers. The IBM-PC http://youtu.be/Xw5uRmjESMc Terry Stewart (Tez) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 26 07:21:25 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 08:21:25 -0500 Subject: Access to RSTS/E IOPAGE Registers Message-ID: <50DAF9D5.3050704@compsys.to> I require some help with a program which may be of interest to other hobby users. The program is: SHOW EMULATOR or SHOWEM and runs under: (a) RT-11 both UnMapped and Mapped Monitors (b) TSX-Plus (c) RUST both RUST/SJ and RUST/XM (d) RSTS/E (e) RTEM-11 The current Emulators which are detected and displayed are SimH, Ersatz-11 and V11. If anyone knows of any other PDP-11 emulators which can also be included, that would be of great interest, especially if access to that emulator for testing is possible. I have asked for help in the past about this and the only other PDP-11 emulator which runs RT-11 compatible programs is Charon which unfortunately no longer seems to be available or even running. If anyone can help expand the list, it would be appreciated!!! Unfortunately, for (d) and (e), I do not have any information on how to access the IOPAGE registers since SHOWEM requires access to SR0 (177572) and SR1 (177574) in addition to the PSW (177776). I do not believe that RTEM-11 will ever allow a User program to gain access to the IOPAGE registers, however, RSTS/E may allow such access. Does anyone who is reading this post know if access to the IOPAGE registers is possible under RSTS/E for a program running in RT-11 compatibility' mode? And do you also know how it is done? If there is no solution, then I will make to current SHOWEM available to any hobby users who are interested. Otherwise, I would prefer to delay until the RSTS/E solution is implemented. Jerome Fine From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Dec 26 08:48:25 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:48:25 +0000 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? Message-ID: Al, I'm away for the holidays, but could have a rummage at TNMoC when I return. My next day at Bletchley won't be until the 12th. But do nag me if you don't hear back. I know we have at least one system, but its in storage. It would likely have arrived with some media. The media would have been directed off into the archive section. That makes me think it likely we'll have something. --Colin Al Kossow wrote: >Is there an image archive of software for the Displaywriter somewhere? >Someone donated one to the Computer History Museum recently, and I went through our archives and have >only come up with a bunch of versions of the CE disk and a single TEXT PACK 1 diskette. > >I did image what we have, and put it up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/Displaywriter > >One thing I discovered was you HAVE to degauss the floppy before cloning the CE diskette. It expects tracks 37, 41 and 43 >to be blank or it hangs. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 26 09:23:18 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:23:18 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DABFB5.9030300@gmail.com> References: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DABFB5.9030300@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:13 AM +0000 12/26/12, Dave wrote: >The "bog standard" STs, STFMs and STEs go for reasonable amounts in the UK. I think the Atari's might have been more accessible in the UK and Europe. Even 15 years ago they were virtually impossible to get, at least where I live. I tried for several years to find an 8-bit Atari computer, and eventually ceased to look. >Until recently they were not even selling at all but the market >seems to have picked up. They seem more expensive in the US. There >is a TT-030 on ebay at present with a "buy-it-now" of $400 which >seems slightly expensive to me as its standard. > >http://r.ebay.com/pJz2eC Actually that's on the low-end of what I feared. >Sadly my MEGA died a while ago but I think my STE (4Megs RAM, >interal laptop IDE hard drive) and TT-030 (with "hi-res graphics >card) both work fine. I've been meaning to check on my TT-030 for quite some time. It's the only Atari I've ever managed to get my hands on. At one point I ran into someone selling several ST's and MEGA's at a swap meet, but he wanted far more than I (or anyone else) was willing to pay. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:56:47 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:56:47 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: <1356494083.93192.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DABFB5.9030300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50DB1E3F.8010804@gmail.com> On 26/12/2012 15:23, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:13 AM +0000 12/26/12, Dave wrote: >> The "bog standard" STs, STFMs and STEs go for reasonable amounts in >> the UK. > > I think the Atari's might have been more accessible in the UK and > Europe. Even 15 years ago they were virtually impossible to get, at > least where I live. I tried for several years to find an 8-bit Atari > computer, and eventually ceased to look. > >> Until recently they were not even selling at all but the market seems >> to have picked up. They seem more expensive in the US. There is a >> TT-030 on ebay at present with a "buy-it-now" of $400 which seems >> slightly expensive to me as its standard. >> >> http://r.ebay.com/pJz2eC > > Actually that's on the low-end of what I feared. > >> Sadly my MEGA died a while ago but I think my STE (4Megs RAM, interal >> laptop IDE hard drive) and TT-030 (with "hi-res graphics card) both >> work fine. > > I've been meaning to check on my TT-030 for quite some time. It's the > only Atari I've ever managed to get my hands on. > > At one point I ran into someone selling several ST's and MEGA's at a > swap meet, but he wanted far more than I (or anyone else) was willing > to pay. > It wasn't Ben was it? http://www.aracnet.com/~atari/st_hard.htm > Zane > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 10:29:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 08:29:45 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DB25F9.7060502@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 6:48 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > Al, > > I'm away for the holidays, but could have a rummage at TNMoC when I return. will do. I'm trying to work down the backlog of IBM media I have to image over the holiday break. One thing I noticed is getting track 0 to read correctly is picky about the controller used with Imagedisk. An Adaptec AHA-1522 works correctly with a National DM8473A. The Displaywriter supported either single or double-sided drives. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Dec 26 11:05:11 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:05:11 -0600 Subject: IBM hermaphroditic TR connectors Message-ID: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> I have an entire case of adapters, made by Energy Transformation Systems, Inc. I called their tech support this morning, and was told that these were made for Token Ring connections, using IBM Type 1 or Type A cables? There are 2 different PN: EB-TRT-I has impedance matching, uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 EA-DATA-U does not have impedance matching, also uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 These have female RJ45 on one end. Apparently they are used to connect to a MAU? They look like these http://www.cuc.eu/en/li/conrj/rjembase/879700.html But use pins 3,6 and 5,4. Anybody trying to resurrect any old TR stuff? I confess, these are way beyond what I have any knowledge of! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5988 - Release Date: 12/26/12 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 11:20:38 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:20:38 +0000 Subject: IBM hermaphroditic TR connectors In-Reply-To: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> References: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> Message-ID: <50DB31E6.4070903@gmail.com> On 26/12/2012 17:05, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have an entire case of adapters, made by Energy Transformation Systems, > Inc. > > I called their tech support this morning, and was told that these were made > for Token Ring connections, using IBM Type 1 or Type A cables? > > There are 2 different PN: > > EB-TRT-I has impedance matching, uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 > > EA-DATA-U does not have impedance matching, also uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 > > > > These have female RJ45 on one end. Apparently they are used to connect to a > MAU? > > They look like these http://www.cuc.eu/en/li/conrj/rjembase/879700.html > > But use pins 3,6 and 5,4. > > > > Anybody trying to resurrect any old TR stuff? > I have a Token Ring network but its all plain RJ45 so really "modern". I would have thought these were more relevant to preserving or documenting the IBM Cabling System. I wonder if any one is interesting in preserving or re-creating this type of network. Does Al at CHM, the folks at MARCH or TNMOC have any plans to demonstrate this sort of early structured cabling systems,,,, > > > I confess, these are way beyond what I have any knowledge of! > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5988 - Release Date: 12/26/12 > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 12:22:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 10:22:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? Message-ID: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 8:29 AM PST Al Kossow wrote: >On 12/26/12 6:48 AM, Colin Eby wrote: >> Al, >> >> I'm away for the holidays, but could have a rummage at TNMoC when I return. > >will do. > >I'm trying to work down the backlog of IBM media I have to image over the holiday break. >One thing I noticed is getting track 0 to read correctly is picky about the controller >used with Imagedisk. An Adaptec AHA-1522 works correctly with a National DM8473A. >The Displaywriter supported either single or double-sided drives. > > > > who made the drives in the DW? Are they useful for imaging with a modern pc? From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 26 12:33:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 10:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > Something to do in the quiet times between the Xmas pies and the > festive cheer: Make a YouTube video on the most classic of my classic > computers. The IBM-PC > http://youtu.be/Xw5uRmjESMc > Very clean machine. Nice Job! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 12:36:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 10:36:58 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> I've only ever run into Displaywriter document disks--nothing fantastic, the machine depends on the smarts in the printer extensively for document formatting. There was CP/M-86 offered for the DW, but I've never run into a copy. Does it use EBCDIC internally, or does it convert from ASCII to EBCDIC for I/O? There was also a version of VEDIT for DW, but I don't know much about it. RICM does have a DW with what looks like software for it. --Chuck From ba600 at ncf.ca Wed Dec 26 12:48:57 2012 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 13:48:57 -0500 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DA4AB8.9040707@bitsavers.org> References: <50DA4AB8.9040707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1889114.qgImAe70qr@linux-zlo2> On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 04:54:16 PM Al Kossow wrote: > Is there an image archive of software for the Displaywriter somewhere? > Someone donated one to the Computer History Museum recently, and I went > through our archives and have only come up with a bunch of versions of the > CE disk and a single TEXT PACK 1 diskette. I'm just re-shelving my Display Writer disks after the move. Unfortunately it is from Quebec so the disk labels are in French. I'll keep my eyes open for disks from IBM, I still have a few boxes to look through, and it will take a while longer before I'm setup to make copies again. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 12:56:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 10:56:48 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was CP/M-86 offered for the DW, but I've never run into a copy. Does it use EBCDIC internally, or does it convert from ASCII to EBCDIC for I/O? > There was also UCSD Pascal, from looking at the press from the time. I would guess they do EBCDIC translation when talking to printers, etc. The display logic looks like it could be similar to the PC MDA. > RICM does have a DW with what looks like software for it. > Will have to see if they offer to image it. Apparently LCM has some as well. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 12:59:57 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 10:59:57 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 10:22 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > who made the drives in the DW? Are they useful for imaging with a modern pc? > IBM. There isn't as much useful information for them compared to Qume or Shugart drives. If you are going to read old floppies, find a Shugart 851 and a Adaptec AHA-1522 ISA host adapter, and/or a PCI Catweasel if you need to image esoteric formats. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 26 13:10:28 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:10:28 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8C741873-9EBA-4B13-9E21-CA6EE03D1899@shiresoft.com> On Dec 26, 2012, at 10:56 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/26/12 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There was CP/M-86 offered for the DW, but I've never run into a copy. Does it use EBCDIC internally, or does it convert from ASCII to EBCDIC for I/O? >> > > There was also UCSD Pascal, from looking at the press from the time. I would guess they do EBCDIC translation when talking to printers, etc. > The display logic looks like it could be similar to the PC MDA. This is coming from the deep dark past (since the DW was a contemporary of System/23) but I suspect that everything was EBCDIC as it was in System/23. The character generator ROM in the display was EBCDIC. Having been there at the time (IBM Boca Raton, FL) there's some history that folks may not be generally aware of. System/23 was very important to computing history in more ways than one. Many of the peripherals used in the original IBM PC were only slightly changed versions of the peripherals used in System/23. Some of that was due to the skunkworks nature of the IBM PC in it's very early days (internal to IBM) and the fact that all of the original HW engineers for the PC were from System/23. The peripherals were just re-laid out versions of the System/23 boards. This was done to prevent the "cheaper" PC boards from being used in System/23. It also explains a lot about the design choices for what would become the PC (ISA) bus. TTFN - Guy From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 26 13:27:39 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 08:27:39 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Very clean machine. Nice Job! Thanks. It's very clean although I've had to make a couple of repairs in the past. A shorted diode in the monitor. It also threw a RAM chip one time. Thank goodness for POST messages, which pointed me to the exact one! Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 26 13:30:51 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 08:30:51 +1300 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming Message-ID: Seen on one of my Google groups http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ Terry (Tez) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 13:36:10 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:36:10 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <8C741873-9EBA-4B13-9E21-CA6EE03D1899@shiresoft.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> <8C741873-9EBA-4B13-9E21-CA6EE03D1899@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50DB51AA.6080201@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 11:10 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > System/23 was very important to computing history in more ways than one. Many of the peripherals used in the original IBM PC were only > slightly changed versions of the peripherals used in System/23. I was pretty surprised that CHM has almost nothing for the Displaywriter and System/23 compared to how much we have for the 51x0. We don't even have a System/23 according to the catalog. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 13:40:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:40:35 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50DB52B3.7000006@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 10:56 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > There was also UCSD Pascal, from looking at the press from the time. I > would guess they do EBCDIC translation when talking to printers, etc. > The display logic looks like it could be similar to the PC MDA. Everything about the DW was EBCDIC, but EBCDIC is not a good choice for CP/M file name characters (note particularly the "flags" used in the file extension part of a directory entry--they're all high-bit flags and uppercase alpha (and numerics) are Cx Dx Ex and Fx codes in EBCDIC. My guess would be a mass of ASCII-to-EBCDIC and vice-versa conversions, but I've never been able to verify it. The DW had one of the best-feeling computer keyboards that I've ever encountered, even if it was pretty bulky. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 13:54:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:54:01 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 11:30 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Seen on one of my Google groups > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ Sigh, it seems that nothing's changed in the last 50 or so years. Why anyone would want to write financial code in C++ is a little beyond me. That being said, I recall a couple of financial applications that *were* written in APL. All in all, COBOL still isn't too bad for such stuff, no matter how some people view it. The wonderful part is that it's just as possible to write crappy code in COBOL as it is in IPL-V. I've long wondered if the Y2K panic did more to clean up old COBOL code or merely dirty it up more. I suspect the truth is a little of both. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 26 13:55:34 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:55:34 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB52B3.7000006@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB43CA.70103@sydex.com> <50DB4870.2020106@bitsavers.org> <50DB52B3.7000006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0890184A-EE3B-4EE8-A5A4-46836990F5EB@shiresoft.com> On Dec 26, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The DW had one of the best-feeling computer keyboards that I've ever encountered, even if it was pretty bulky. Same IBM keyboard technology used in DW, S/23, original IBM PC (I'm sure there were other products in the '79-82 range that also used it). Miss those keyboards. TTFN - Guy From g at kurico.com Wed Dec 26 14:05:01 2012 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:05:01 -0600 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1aef3397f39b13693174e10bd47195e0@mail.mxes.net> > Sigh, it seems that nothing's changed in the last 50 or so years. > Why anyone would want to write financial code in C++ is a little > beyond me. That being said, I recall a couple of financial > applications that *were* written in APL. > > All in all, COBOL still isn't too bad for such stuff, no matter how > some people view it. The wonderful part is that it's just as > possible > to write crappy code in COBOL as it is in IPL-V. All "financial code" is not the same. The stuff that tracks your checking account is not the same (in requirements) as the stuff that high frequency traders use (some of the examples of major issue wrought by "poorly" written software fall into the latter category). Cobol would be significantly out of place in an environment where microseconds make a difference. That said, I was highly disappointed in the article. Bottom line, real world software sucks for myriad reasons. OK, fine, I think anyone who has been in the industry for more than a few years already knows that. I was kinda hoping that it would delve a bit more into the whole higher ed to industry impedance mismatch that often occurs and how that might be improved to help the overall state of software affairs. But alas just a passing mention of higher ed and then 2 pages of rehash on what makes software (and software engineers) suck. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 26 14:11:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 12:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: >> Very clean machine. Nice Job! > > Thanks. It's very clean although I've had to make a couple of repairs > in the past. A shorted diode in the monitor. It also threw a RAM > chip one time. Thank goodness for POST messages, which pointed me to > the exact one! About four years ago I got a complete 5160 with color monitor & IBM printer for about $200. Everything was in the original boxes and even included IBM branded printer & serial cables, also in boxes! I need to find a good keyboard for my 5150 though. The cool thing was that it appeared to have been boxed and then never touched since about 1986. That's what all the file dates read. The machine was totally pristine, inside and out. Spinrite found zero errors on the 10MB hard disk it had too. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Dec 26 14:28:28 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:28:28 +0000 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356553708.4433.0.camel@hp0> IIRC they are IBM's own. On Wed, 2012-12-26 at 10:22 -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > ------------------------------ > On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 8:29 AM PST Al Kossow wrote: > > >On 12/26/12 6:48 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > >> Al, > >> > >> I'm away for the holidays, but could have a rummage at TNMoC when I return. > > > >will do. > > > >I'm trying to work down the backlog of IBM media I have to image over the holiday break. > >One thing I noticed is getting track 0 to read correctly is picky about the controller > >used with Imagedisk. An Adaptec AHA-1522 works correctly with a National DM8473A. > >The Displaywriter supported either single or double-sided drives. > > > > > > > > > who made the drives in the DW? Are they useful for imaging with a modern pc? > -- -- Colin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 14:32:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 12:32:24 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1aef3397f39b13693174e10bd47195e0@mail.mxes.net> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <1aef3397f39b13693174e10bd47195e0@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: <50DB5ED8.1000807@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 12:05 PM, George Currie wrote: > All "financial code" is not the same. The stuff that tracks your > checking account is not the same (in requirements) as the stuff that > high frequency traders use (some of the examples of major issue wrought > by "poorly" written software fall into the latter category). Cobol > would be significantly out of place in an environment where microseconds > make a difference. Uh-huh, in the perversion called HFT where a share of stock is owned on the average for a period of what, 2 seconds? That is laughingly called "investment"? HFT would probably disappear if a per-share trading tax were imposed--right now, it only exists because trades and back-outs can be done for free. There could be worse things in this world were HFT to suddenly go away. That being said, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with COBOL--but little effort is being spent on writing good compilers for it. After all, it's just a programming language. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 15:19:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:19:00 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> On 26/12/2012 19:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/26/2012 11:30 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> Seen on one of my Google groups >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ > It seems things have gone horrible, 50 years ago the code where I worked was generally good. When I worked on a professional development team we had coding standards that were adhered to, did code walk throughs, and had proper documentation. These days it seems we don't have time for the checks and balances that make code maintainable and reliable. > Sigh, it seems that nothing's changed in the last 50 or so years. Why > anyone would want to write financial code in C++ is a little beyond > me. That being said, I recall a couple of financial applications that > *were* written in APL. > You will find that APL was "widely" (and may still be) used in some financial environments, especially Insurance as its very simple to operate on vectors and lots of insurance and other finance involves that type of mathematics. If you are doing mathematical modelling then C++ and objects for the elements makes sense to me. > All in all, COBOL still isn't too bad for such stuff, no matter how > some people view it. The wonderful part is that it's just as possible > to write crappy code in COBOL as it is in IPL-V. > Making programmers write actuarial code in Cobol is just plain cruel. I well remember a "IF ..... THEN COMPUTE ... ON SIZE ERROR ....." that blew the compiler stack because it got to a closing ")" and didn't know if it was part of the logical expression for the "IF" , or part of the "COMPUTE" or a subscript.... > I've long wondered if the Y2K panic did more to clean up old COBOL > code or merely dirty it up more. I suspect the truth is a little of > both. > I think much of it was done using automated tools, and I think there was very little structural change. Just fixing the dates. Mind you when I started programming at an insurance company in 1976 our oldest policy was issued in 1896, and the policies I took out a few years later were 30 year policies which matured in the current century... > --Chuck > > Dave G4UGM From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 15:59:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 13:59:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D65523.7050408@sydex.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D65523.7050408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356559174.65426.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis > http://www.swissmicros.com/ At about $1.10 USD per swiss franc, that's a heckuva deal, particularly when compared with what small-audience calculators like the 16C sell for used. I'm sore tempted... C: They're so small From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:02:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:02:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> References: <50D64E39.8020304@sydex.com> <50D6523C.80006@neurotica.com> <50D65679.3070208@sydex.com> <36F53F10-A3A6-42A9-9761-B604CBCEC14C@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <1356559378.16447.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: James Lynch To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific ones. C: The 50g has RPN as well as algebraic mode. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:07:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:07:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <201212231943.qBNJhk2L085286@billy.ezwind.net> <88959674-CEA5-49DC-8AF0-FCB15B4E9352@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <1356559664.66297.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: David Griffith There's a homebrewed effort to produce a new calculator from the ground up in the spirit of HP RPN calcs.? There isn't much info publicly available, but there is discussion and polls on design decisions at hpmuseum.org. C: Wasn't a French company or group doing that very thing a few years ago. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:10:06 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:10:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356559806.33961.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire ? "1 volt peak to peak rms"?? Well, which is it? ;) ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave C: I'm trying to recollect my "thinking" or lack thereof on this. I think I thought I read something to the effect that the "peaks" were RMS values. In other words the "1 volt" part wasn't really a volt, but 1.414 or whatever (and I know I said something different in a different e-mail - is what happens when you think too hard I guess!). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:21:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:21:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin Chuck pointed out that FREQUENCY was more significant, and could DESTROY a 5151, and that voltage [if it WERE a problem] needed but a resistor network. C: Note though that I never did say "IBM 5151" which was notoriously sensitive. I still could be wrong, but whereas Chuck states that 30 khz is what we're shooting for, I would bet the farm that the AT & T's horizontal scan rate is actually much lover (23-25 khz). I still could be wrong, but then again we're not talking about a fixed frequency vga monitor in reality. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:29:01 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:29:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the M20 (the M24 is the actual equivalent). That is a slamming machine though if you managed to get your hands on one. I'm jelli From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:34:00 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:34:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Terry thanks for that, I'm watching it now. You're in New Zealand IIRC. You should try and get your hands on some wild Japanese pseudo compatibles. I'm of the persuasion they're much more plentiful (for what it's worth!) then they are over here. ?You sound more English then Kiwi to me. But maybe I just haven't known too many Zealanders. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:42:14 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: geneb About four years ago I got a complete 5160 with color monitor & IBM printer for about $200.? Everything was in the original boxes and even included IBM branded printer & serial cables, also in boxes!? I need to find a good keyboard for my 5150 though. The cool thing was that it appeared to have been boxed and then never touched since about 1986.? That's what all the file dates read.? The machine was totally pristine, inside and out.? Spinrite found zero errors on the 10MB hard disk it had too. g. C: wow now you're in the big leagues. A real peecee. Holy. World look out. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:45:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:45:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356561916.96708.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Tofu ?You sound more English then Kiwi to me. But maybe I just haven't known too many Zealanders. C: Alright I take it back entirely. You definitely sound like someone from way down unda. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 16:48:14 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Al Kossow If you are going to read old floppies, find a Shugart 851 and a Adaptec AHA-1522 ISA host adapter, and/or a PCI Catweasel if you need to image esoteric formats. C: what about the S* 801? Do you mean the AHA-1522A or -B or does it not matter? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 26 16:58:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:58:36 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> On 12/26/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the M20 (the M24 is the actual equivalent). Equivalent? Hardly; it's the same damn machine. ;) But no, we know they're quite different. We were talking about the design similarities. > That is a slamming machine though if you managed to get your hands on one. I'm jelli The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact, slam. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 17:10:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:10:13 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50DB83D5.7040209@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 01:19 PM, Dave wrote: > Making programmers write actuarial code in Cobol is just plain cruel. I > well remember a "IF ..... THEN COMPUTE ... ON SIZE ERROR ....." that > blew the compiler stack because it got to a closing ")" and didn't know > if it was part of the logical expression for the "IF" , or part of the > "COMPUTE" or a subscript.... Most of my field experience was supporting the COBOL compiler and runtime. I remember Grace Hopper and the Navy Audit Tests for COBOL 74. (Now *there's* and acronym that few people remember: FCCTS - Federal COBOL Compiler Testing Service). It always seemed to me that the resolution of about half the PSRs submitted by users could be solved by quoting chapter and verse from the CODASYL spec--"I'm aware that you think it SHOULD work that way, but it doesn't"). Still, for its time, until the rise (and fall) of PL/I, COBOL had a lot of interesting features that other languages didn't have--the ability to specify the precision of a calculation; MOVE CORRESPONDING, ISAM as an integral part of the language, incredible variety of the PERFORM verb. Statements like EXAMINE/INSPECT, TALLYING or REPLACING.... A lot of the Y2K work on COBOL stuff was done by shall we say, "senior" programmers for good wages at the time==$50/hour was not unusual for COBOL contract work in 1998. It's fun introducing a young 'un who knows C or Java to the intricacies of COBOL... :) --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 17:11:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:11:45 -0800 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50DB8431.9040504@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 02:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact, slam. Do you also have the Z8000 add-in card for the M24/6300? Have you ever installed the Zilog serial chip in the M24 and used it? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 17:16:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:16:40 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 02:48 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: what about the S* 801? Do you mean the AHA-1522A or -B or does it not matter? Is 5" what you get when you wash an SA-801 in hot water and then tumble-dry it? (That's okay--I found a forum that identified the DW floppies as 12"...) :) What Al means is a controller with a DP8473 FDC in it. The SCSI part doesn't matter. But the 8473 handles FM quite nicely--and it's available on standalone FDCs such as the DTK Mini-micro as well as numerous MFM, RLL, SCSI and ESDI hard disk controllers with support for floppies. Ultrastor is another brand that comes to mind. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 17:18:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:18:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356563889.89165.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire On 12/26/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the M20 (the M24 is the actual equivalent). ? Equivalent?? Hardly; it's the same damn machine. ;)? But no, we know they're quite different.? We were talking about the design similarities. C: "Same damn"..."equivalent"...o man head hurts. > That is a slamming machine though if you managed to get your hands on one. I'm jelli ? The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-))? Both of them do, in fact, slam. C: I was referencing the M20. The 6300/M24/Xerox 6040 (IIRC) is cool enough but nowhere near as cool ???? I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved the floppy and hard drive at least. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 26 17:21:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:21:53 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DB8431.9040504@sydex.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> <50DB8431.9040504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DB8691.6040502@neurotica.com> On 12/26/2012 06:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact, >> slam. > > Do you also have the Z8000 add-in card for the M24/6300? Have you ever > installed the Zilog serial chip in the M24 and used it? No, sadly. My only hands-on experience with the 6300 was when it was a current product; I worked at a computer store that sold and serviced them. That machine was in the showroom, and I used it quite a bit when there were no customers around. We couldn't do much hacking with it. I have a 6300 now, which I've been talking about in the past few days with the dead CRT etc, but I've not yet powered it up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 17:46:00 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:46:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 12/26/2012 02:48 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: what about the S* 801? Do you mean the AHA-1522A or -B or does it not matter? Is 5"? what you get when you wash an SA-801 in hot water and then tumble-dry it?? (That's okay--I found a forum that identified the DW floppies as 12"...)? :) ?C: Oi whatever model we were talking about the other day. 802? Whatever the Intel MDS box has. What Al means is a controller with a DP8473 FDC in it.? The SCSI part doesn't matter.? But the 8473 handles FM quite nicely--and it's available on standalone FDCs such as the DTK Mini-micro as well as numerous MFM, RLL, SCSI and ESDI hard disk controllers with support for floppies.? Ultrastor is another brand that comes to mind. C: is the feature necessary for reading likely hum drum ms-dos (*not* IBM compatible) formats? Neither the NEC APC, Canon AS-100, nor IBM Displaywriter used that nasty little thing. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 17:56:30 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:56:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > >>> Very clean machine. Nice Job! >> >> Thanks. It's very clean although I've had to make a couple of repairs >> in the past. A shorted diode in the monitor. It also threw a RAM >> chip one time. Thank goodness for POST messages, which pointed me to >> the exact one! > > About four years ago I got a complete 5160 with color monitor & IBM printer > for about $200. Everything was in the original boxes and even included IBM > branded printer & serial cables, also in boxes! I need to find a good > keyboard for my 5150 though. > > The cool thing was that it appeared to have been boxed and then never touched > since about 1986. That's what all the file dates read. The machine was > totally pristine, inside and out. Spinrite found zero errors on the 10MB > hard disk it had too. Must be something about XTs... I also have one that came to me in the original boxes and in mint condition. Bought it from a retired college professor for $50. Steve -- From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 18:01:32 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:01:32 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 3:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What Al means is a controller with a DP8473 FDC in it. The SCSI part doesn't matter. But the 8473 handles FM quite nicely I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was using a Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the address mark on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I switched to the AHA-1522 with a 8473A. I'll double-check that there really was a problem with S36 disks and non-A 8473's.. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 18:09:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:09:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Al Kossow I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was using a Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the address mark on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I switched to the AHA-1522 with a 8473A. I'll double-check that there really was a problem with S36 disks and non-A 8473's.. C: Is the adapter you used similar to what Dave Dunfield describes on his site? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 26 18:29:43 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 13:29:43 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <1356561916.96708.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356561916.96708.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >You're in New Zealand IIRC. You should try and get your hands on some wild Japanese pseudo compatibles. > I'm of the persuasion they're much more plentiful (for what it's worth!) then they are over here. I won't say plentiful but they do come up from time to time. Problem with my collection is storage space in that there isn't any! (-: >Alright I take it back entirely. You definitely sound like someone from way down unda. LOL. I'm sure I most certainly do! Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 26 18:34:44 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 13:34:44 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > About four years ago I got a complete 5160 with color monitor & IBM printer > for about $200. Everything was in the original boxes and even included IBM > branded printer & serial cables, also in boxes! I need to find a good > keyboard for my 5150 though. > > The cool thing was that it appeared to have been boxed and then never > touched since about 1986. That's what all the file dates read. The machine > was totally pristine, inside and out. Spinrite found zero errors on the > 10MB hard disk it had too. Nice. Here in New Zealand original IBM PC and PC/XT machines aren't common. Largely a result of companies scrapping them, so they weren't shoved up in a loft like many beloved home computers. Also by the time businesses started to buy in bulk, the Asian clone factories were in full production. Those clones were just so much cheaper! Terry (Tez) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 18:44:43 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:44:43 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DB99FB.4010801@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 4:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Is the adapter you used similar to what Dave Dunfield describes on his site? > It is probably the most common and least expensive way to get an ISA controller with the National floppy controller. The combination of this controller and a Shugart SA851 disk drive seems to work REALLY well. I've only had problems with about a dozen of the 500+ floppies I've read with the setup so far and have had MUCH better luck with DSDD media than before. You do have to make sure that the heads are kept clean, which is really easy on the 851 once you take the clear plastic plate off above the top head. http://www.ebay.com/itm/290831218466 is $15 I've been picking them up frequently at Weird Stuff for $3. I had heard that this part had a really good internal data separator, and that seems to be true. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 18:55:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:55:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Terry thanks for that, I'm watching it now. > You're in New Zealand IIRC. You should try and get your hands on some > wild Japanese pseudo compatibles. I'm of the persuasion they're much > more plentiful (for what it's worth!) then they are over here. Howzbout PC/JX? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with 720K 5.25" drives available. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 18:59:01 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 16:59:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DB99FB.4010801@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB99FB.4010801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1356569941.92550.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the adapter as in the connection between the cable from the controller and the 8" drive. How do you bridge that gap. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 19:04:08 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356570248.5429.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Howzbout PC/JX?? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with 720K 5.25" drives available. C: Oh they snuck a few in, huyu think you're fooling. ? ???? The BYTE issue, sometime in 1982, had a number of Japanese specific computers, many dual processor (68k + 8086). That's what I had in mind. By far the most mondo coolest of them all. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 19:12:43 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356569941.92550.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB99FB.4010801@bitsavers.org> <1356569941.92550.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356570763.80735.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Now that I've seen it I used to have that exact controller. Not sure if I kept it. My concern though is how is it connected to the 8" drive. I started making a board at one point a long time ago. I was curious what y'all use. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 19:14:07 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:14:07 -0600 Subject: IBM hermaphroditic TR connectors In-Reply-To: <50DB31E6.4070903@gmail.com> References: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> <50DB31E6.4070903@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Dave wrote: > I have a Token Ring network but its all plain RJ45 so really "modern". I > would have thought these were more relevant to preserving or documenting the > IBM Cabling System. I wonder if any one is interesting in preserving or > re-creating this type of network. Does Al at CHM, the folks at MARCH or > TNMOC have any plans to demonstrate this sort of early structured cabling > systems,,,, Ugh, I used to deal with these by the hundreds at $work ca. 1997 or so. The building was wired with IBM Type-1 (at least what I understand to be called Type-1, and what is in Cindy's pic) connectors in floor cells in every office cubicle. PCs had IBM or Intel ISA TR cards which were connected with 9-pin to Type-1 cables into the floor cells. As the building networks converted over to Ethernet, we used these BalUns to run Ethernet through the Type-1 jacks. Probably not "up to code" and probably not the optimal media for Ethernet. These were the 10mbps days, too, so in the few cases were we had 16mpbs TR to the desktops, (theoretical) performance actually decreased! Anyway, I have a couple IBM MAUs with these connectors, so I'd be in for a few BalUns. I will email Cindy directly. -- jht From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Dec 26 19:14:37 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 14:14:37 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Howzbout PC/JX? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with > 720K 5.25" drives available. Yes, I've seen that model come up for sale here at least once. There is a review of it in this issue of New Zealand Bits and Bytes http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/bits-and-bytes/issue4.3.htm Terry (Tez) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 19:19:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:19:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS (Was: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356559806.33961.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> <1356559806.33961.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226170524.R96558@shell.lmi.net> ? "1 volt peak to peak rms"?? Well, which is it? ;) On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: I'm trying to recollect my "thinking" or lack thereof on this. I > think I thought I read something to the effect that the "peaks" were RMS > values. In other words the "1 volt" part wasn't really a volt, but 1.414 > or whatever (and I know I said something different in a different e-mail > - is what happens when you think too hard I guess!). Think of it as a type of AVERAGE. You get a certain height peak, but are more interested in the average voltage. Sometimes the range is most useful, sometimes the average. BUT, these are AC signals, and some are positive, and some are negative. If you were to take an "ARITHMETIC MEAN", and just add up the voltages and divide by the number of samples, you would get ZERO. (assuming no DC component offset) You COULD take the absolute values and average those. BUT, spikes, or odd shaped curves can give you a useless average. Likewise averaging "BillG" and "Billy in the box under the bridge", which is why most people talk about MEDIAN home price, NOT MEAN. OR, you could SQUARE each number, average [MEAN} those squares, and then take the square root. Hence, ROOT of the MEAN of the SQUARES, or RMS. (Square root of square is one way of getting absolute value). THAT gives a type of average that is more useful in terms of how much work you can get out of it, etc. (cf. "Variance", "standard deviation") From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 19:25:32 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:25:32 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356570763.80735.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB99FB.4010801@bitsavers.org> <1356569941.92550.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356570763.80735.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DBA38C.4050804@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 5:12 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I was curious what y'all use. > I use John Wilson's adapter board http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 19:34:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> > Chuck pointed out that FREQUENCY was more significant, > and could DESTROY a 5151, and that voltage [if it WERE > a problem] needed but a resistor network. On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Note though that I never did say "IBM 5151" which was notoriously > sensitive. That is true. You said "an Eagle 5151 clone" Some people interpret "clone" to mean the "exact same thing from another manufacturer". Did you mean "somewthing vaguely similar, with same specs, but without the known design weaknesses"? > I still could be wrong, but whereas Chuck states that 30 khz > is what we're shooting for, I would bet the farm that the AT & T's > horizontal scan rate is actually much lover (23-25 khz). I still could > be wrong, but then again we're not talking about a fixed frequency vga > monitor in reality. I don't know anything about such things. I'm just trying to clarify what is being argued about. It would help ENORMOUSLY to get it straight whether you, or Chuck, have actually DONE what either of you suggest, or are merely speculating about possibilities. "you can", "you could", "would be" do NOT answer that! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 19:37:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:37:24 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DBA654.5080002@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 03:46 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: is the feature necessary for reading likely hum drum ms-dos (*not* > IBM compatible) formats? Neither the NEC APC, Canon AS-100, nor IBM > Displaywriter used that nasty little thing. No, but since Al mentioned it, I thought I'd elaborate. The 8473 does have the distinction that it can successfully work with 128-byte MFM sectored media, but such stuff isn't common at all and not at all in the MS-DOS world. Any high-density controller should work in the MS-DOS world. A lot of people use the FDADAP as a convenient transition from 34 to 50 pin floppy interface. It has the nice feature that it automatically handles the TG43 signal for those drives that need it: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 19:38:45 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:38:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS (Was: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <20121226170524.R96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> <1356559806.33961.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226170524.R96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356572325.36732.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I know what RMS is, where I used to work many years ago it was the equivalent in heating effect as the specified dc voltage. Or some such. Frequently we would express voltages in decibels. How often do you see that being done? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 19:44:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:44:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226174242.E96558@shell.lmi.net> From: Al Kossow : > If you are going to read old floppies, find a Shugart 851 and a Adaptec > AHA-1522 ISA host adapter, and/or a PCI Catweasel if you need to image > esoteric formats. > On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: what about the S* 801? Do you mean the AHA-1522A or -B or does it not > matter? SHUGART 801 is SINGLE sided SHUGART 851 is DOUBLE sided. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 19:50:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:50:35 -0800 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50DBA96B.1020406@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 04:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Terry thanks for that, I'm watching it now. >> You're in New Zealand IIRC. You should try and get your hands on some >> wild Japanese pseudo compatibles. I'm of the persuasion they're much >> more plentiful (for what it's worth!) then they are over here. > > Howzbout PC/JX? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with > 720K 5.25" drives available. I've seen the JX for sale in Oz--terrible system design--an "improved" Peanut with all of the bad points left in and a few more added. I recall that at the early announcement that there was speculation that it might use the new 80286 CPU. No such luck--same old 8088 4.77MHz. There was a hard disk available for it as a "stackable" item that fit on top of the CPU/floppy unit. The price was outrageous for a 10 MB disk. As if that weren't enough, the basic hardware had large incompatibilities with the 5150. One wonders why they bothered. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 19:50:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:50:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: is the feature necessary for reading likely hum drum ms-dos (*not* > IBM compatible) formats? Neither the NEC APC, Canon AS-100, nor IBM > Displaywriter used that nasty little thing. Do you wish to read any disks that are FM/"Single Density"? Do you wish to read any disks that are MFM, with 128 byte sectors? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 19:55:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226175406.T96558@shell.lmi.net> From: Al Kossow > I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was > using a Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the > address mark on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I > switched to the AHA-1522 with a 8473A. > I'll double-check that there really was a problem with S36 disks and > non-A 8473's.. On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Is the adapter you used similar to what Dave Dunfield describes on > his site? ADAPTER??!? WHAT ADAPTER? Or are you CHANGING the subject to ask about how to cable it? (which is NOT mentioned nor even implied in what you just quoted) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 19:55:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:55:56 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50DBAAAC.3050107@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 05:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It would help ENORMOUSLY to get it straight whether you, > or Chuck, have actually DONE what either of you suggest, > or are merely speculating about possibilities. > "you can", "you could", "would be" do NOT answer that! I've done the VGA monitor thing with a modern LCD unih (at least modern enough to have both VGA and DVI inputs. Since the low end of most VGA support is about 30KHz, I suspect that the 6300 video Hsync isn't even close to 18.432KHz that the 5151 needs. I have a 6300 with the original monochrome monitor, so if Chris wants to risk his 5151 clone, he can go right ahead and report what happens. But I'll leave my MDA-compatible monitors off the 6300 if you don't mind. --Chuck From wheagy at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 20:00:26 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:00:26 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III Message-ID: Anyone have experience with the CFFA3000 in an Apple III+? I have one that I've been using successfully in an Apple IIe, but have had no luck getting it to work in the Apple III. I set switch 7 on, and tried the CFFA Apple III driver, although I'm not sure exactly how that is supposed to work. I have no floppy software for the Apple III+ and am not 100% sure it is functioning properly. Any way to test the III+ without software or the CFFA3000? Thanks, Win wheagy at gmail.com From pye at mactec.com.au Wed Dec 26 20:10:39 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:10:39 +1000 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6D59B3C0-A3D4-4A23-A617-35DE043B806B@mactec.com.au> On 27/12/2012, at 10:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Howzbout PC/JX? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with > 720K 5.25" drives available. I have an IBM JX (in Australia).. Nicely built machine, but rather useless. Of the few I have seen (including mine) they all look like they have never been used, probably because there isn't a great deal of software they can run. Surprisingly the infra red keyboard actually works ok. Chris From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 20:13:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:13:54 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50DBAEE2.6070609@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 5:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Do you wish to read any disks that are MFM, with 128 byte sectors? > Did anyone other than Altos use MFM 48/128 ? I've just run into some from a S-100 Jade Double-D controller, along with a few from Altos. It also turned up a bug in my imd2raw converter program, where I didn't allow for that many sectors per track. Now I've got to come up with the 22disk description for them (since I don't want to keep bugging Chuck about them). From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 26 21:41:29 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:41:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > C: wow now you're in the big leagues. A real peecee. Holy. World look > out. > If I wanted to hear from you, I'd hold you down and pour molten lead down your throat until the morse code embedded in your gurgling told me what I wanted to know. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 26 21:43:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:43:36 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DBAEE2.6070609@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> <50DBAEE2.6070609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50DBC3E8.3020508@sydex.com> On 12/26/2012 06:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Now I've got to come up with the 22disk description for them (since I > don't want > to keep bugging Chuck about them). Take a look at the Jade definition (JAD1). A related one is SUP5 which gets 30 128-byte MFM sectors on a 5.25" floppy. I've probably got the Altos one somewhere stashed away. Generally, since the format required special hardware setups, I left it out. But I'm sure that I've seen it. Don and I exchanged a fair amount of email about the issue. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 26 21:45:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:45:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: > >> About four years ago I got a complete 5160 with color monitor & IBM printer >> for about $200. Everything was in the original boxes and even included IBM >> branded printer & serial cables, also in boxes! I need to find a good >> keyboard for my 5150 though. >> >> The cool thing was that it appeared to have been boxed and then never >> touched since about 1986. That's what all the file dates read. The >> machine was totally pristine, inside and out. Spinrite found zero errors >> on the 10MB hard disk it had too. > > Must be something about XTs... I also have one that came to me in the > original boxes and in mint condition. > > Bought it from a retired college professor for $50. Now that's a score. The shipping labels on the boxes lead me to believe that my example was used internally at IBM. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 26 21:50:04 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:50:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: >> 10MB hard disk it had too. > > Nice. Here in New Zealand original IBM PC and PC/XT machines aren't > common. Largely a result of companies scrapping them, so they weren't > shoved up in a loft like many beloved home computers. Also by the > time businesses started to buy in bulk, the Asian clone factories were > in full production. Those clones were just so much cheaper! > The first clone I got was a DTK board. Nice little '286. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 26 21:55:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:55:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121226195508.S96558@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: > If I wanted to hear from you, I'd hold you down and pour molten lead down > your throat until the morse code embedded in your gurgling told me what I > wanted to know. RoHS makes availability less convenient. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 26 22:06:01 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:06:01 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DBC3E8.3020508@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> <50DBAEE2.6070609@bitsavers.org> <50DBC3E8.3020508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DBC929.4060304@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/12 7:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/26/2012 06:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Now I've got to come up with the 22disk description for them (since I >> don't want >> to keep bugging Chuck about them). > > Take a look at the Jade definition (JAD1). A related one is SUP5 which gets 30 128-byte MFM sectors on a 5.25" floppy. I've probably got the Altos one somewhere stashed away. Generally, since the > format required special hardware setups, I left it out. But I'm sure that I've seen it. > > Don and I exchanged a fair amount of email about the issue. > I can imagine.. There are a bunch of weird formats in there, along with a bunch in the big batch of disks that I gave him in 2000. So far, I've been grinding through the ones that are defined (there's no shortage of those..) The Jade ones are interesting because the collection which I sent down was from a pallet at a surplus store in the 90s that I'm pretty sure came from Girvin Herr, who designed a bunch of the Jade boards. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 26 22:44:14 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <20121226195508.S96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226195508.S96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, geneb wrote: >> If I wanted to hear from you, I'd hold you down and pour molten lead down >> your throat until the morse code embedded in your gurgling told me what I >> wanted to know. > > RoHS makes availability less convenient. I'm not worried. Forge-melted fishing weights and tire-balance weights work. Hell if it comes to it, I've got 92lbs worth of lead balance weights I pulled out of the nose of my F-15. Includes zinc chromate green paint as a bonus carcinogen. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ba600 at ncf.ca Thu Dec 27 00:42:04 2012 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:42:04 -0500 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1889114.qgImAe70qr@linux-zlo2> References: <50DA4AB8.9040707@bitsavers.org> <1889114.qgImAe70qr@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <1700758.YmJsZZYx0X@linux-zlo2> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 01:48:57 PM Mike wrote: > On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 04:54:16 PM Al Kossow wrote: > > Is there an image archive of software for the Displaywriter somewhere? > > Someone donated one to the Computer History Museum recently, and I went > > through our archives and have only come up with a bunch of versions of the > > CE disk and a single TEXT PACK 1 diskette. > > I'm just re-shelving my Display Writer disks after the move. Unfortunately > it is from Quebec so the disk labels are in French. I'll keep my eyes open > for disks from IBM, I still have a few boxes to look through, and it will > take a while longer before I'm setup to make copies again. Found 3 disks so far 6580-000 Display writer System diagnotiscs (CED013A-1) 08/01/83 WID-01 SEQ-781 6580-000 IBM 6580 (PDD011-1) 8/20/82 WID-02 SEQ- 148 DSV1.1 DOS 3.2 48K slave DISK 2+2 Controller copyright 1979 10/4/79 Found another 8" labelled SYSTEM SOURCE but it was from the Dynalogic -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 00:05:14 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 00:05:14 -0600 Subject: U Utah in the 1960s In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25AAF44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <50D652FF.7030004@ubanproductions.com> <201212241341.qBODf7CA099208@billy.ezwind.net> <50D86A39.5010105@bitsavers.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25AAF44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > > Thanks Al, appreciate the response. As established, that would of > > course put it too far out of the period I was requesting though. > > How so? I don't see a date in Al's response, and the PDP-10 was > introduced in 1967, so _prima facie_ you're in the right time frame. > > > You must have missed the rest of the discussion Rich, it's got nothing to do with the PDP-10. The LDS-1 display wasn't released until 1970. -- Marty From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 08:13:21 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 08:13:21 -0600 Subject: Spacewar hardware? In-Reply-To: <1356506295.50818.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356506295.50818.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 1:18 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > > > Certainly, as I said, he and Dabney were inspired by the PDP-6 version of > > Spacewar they saw at SAIL. They were originally going to go the > > mini-computer route and have an actual copy of Spacewar running on a coin > > modded mini, which turned out to be too expensive to have mass produced. > > > it more of cost issue, the mini was not able to run the number of > terminals that was needed to recover cost of the mini > I think it was two terminals to break even, three to make a profit > > Tom, cost of production. This is per our direct talks with Bushnell and Dabney for the Atari book (Atari Inc. - Business is Fun). In fact, Curt and I had the pleasure of driving around with Ted Dabney to some of the original locations for a day while he reminisced everything. It had nothing to do with the number of terminals to make a profit, the cost of the mini alone would have prohibited them from sales in the coin industry at a time when typical coin-ops cost in the $500-$1500 range. For even the cheapest mini at the time (the Data General Nova they considered), you're talking around $4000 just for an entry level Data General Nova - without enough RAM let alone the cost of the terminal stations. They decided fairly quickly that besides the Nova being too slow to run the game on multi-terminal stations, the cost was way too prohibitive. And this was precisely why Nolan felt Pitt and Tuck's Galaxy Game (around $17,000) wouldn't go anywhere, it was impossible for it to scale to mass sales let alone the cost in upkeep on loctaion. Let alone how long it would have taken an operator to even begin to recoup those kinds of costs. -- Marty From jonas at otter.se Wed Dec 26 13:09:30 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:09:30 +0100 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DB4B6A.10809@otter.se> On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 20:33:36 -0800, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 7:54 PM -0800 12/25/12, Tom Sparks wrote: >> >I am looking at buying an Atari ST, witch model should I look into buying? > The TT030 is nice very nice and takes a VGA monitor, but I rather > wish I'd gone for a Falcon. Of course I got my TT030 nearly 15 years > ago, it was hard to get then, I hate to think how hard it might be to > get any Atari ST now, or what any Atari computer might cost. > > Zane They are fairly common on auction sites here in Sweden, I got my 1040STFM a couple of years ago for about 50 Euro, with 2 joysticks, a custom-built flight case and about 200 floppies with pirated games on. If you are prepared to pay for shipping from Europe, you could have a look on ebay.de (Germany) for example, or one of the other European national ebay sites. I got mine from Tradera which is owned by ebay (www.tradera.com), they turn up there every now and then, mostly 520s and 1040s. Shipping would probably be quite expensive though. Jonas From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 14:03:16 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:03:16 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 112, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Al Kossow > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:54:16 -0800 > Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? > Is there an image archive of software for the Displaywriter somewhere? > Someone donated one to the Computer History Museum recently, and I went through our archives and have > only come up with a bunch of versions of the CE disk and a single TEXT PACK 1 diskette. > > I did image what we have, and put it up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/Displaywriter > > One thing I discovered was you HAVE to degauss the floppy before cloning the CE diskette. It expects tracks 37, 41 and 43 > to be blank or it hangs. > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a Displaywriter that came with a bunch of diskettes. https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/super-computers/small-systems-at-ricm/ibm-displaywriter -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 14:22:18 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:22:18 -0500 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? Message-ID: Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? You can see one of the fans at the right of this image: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/DEC_PDP-9_709_Power_Supply.jpg?attredirects=0 -- Michael Thompson From gerardcjat at free.fr Wed Dec 26 17:00:14 2012 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 00:00:14 +0100 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: <35C8727ECF544667875439CCDC40302A@medion> The AT&T 6300 can be operated with a monochrome monitor like a 5151 or a Hercules monitor. You have to install an MDA-card on the system bus and connect it to the mono monitor. Maybe that is the way the 5151 of Chris Tofu works with the 6300. If you want From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 01:32:49 2012 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 00:32:49 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When you say, "tried the CFFA Apple III driver," what exactly do you mean? The driver needs to be configured properly before the III+ will recognize the card. Also, what do you mean when you say you have no floppy software? None at all? As is true of any Apple III, the III+ will only boot from a floppy disk in the internal 5.25" drive, and you will need at least an SOS floppy with the SCP to configure the driver and run the partitioning program. - Mike On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Anyone have experience with the CFFA3000 in an Apple III+? I have one that > I've been using successfully in an Apple IIe, but have had no luck getting > it to work in the Apple III. I set switch 7 on, and tried the CFFA Apple > III driver, although I'm not sure exactly how that is supposed to work. I > have no floppy software for the Apple III+ and am not 100% sure it is > functioning properly. Any way to test the III+ without software or the > CFFA3000? > > Thanks, > Win > wheagy at gmail.com From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Dec 27 03:46:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:46:04 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121216140752.GA41272@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > [W]hen we had problems like this we had to code up small runtime > > routines to scan the memory space for what were JMP and JMP indirect > > instructions in our Microdata 1621 object code to find out who was > > connected to what. > > > Maybe if holme had such a routine he could run it and find the > > runtime setup ones. > > Or throw grep at the text version of the disassaembly. > > My disassembler was originally written specifically to pick apart a > captured malware binary, and it is most usable for jobs similar to > that. It's not "this is the only tool you'll need", but in my > experience it is a major help with such things - I used it for a Y2K > consulting gig back when Y2K was an issue (someone had an x86 binary > whose vendor no longer existed and found it had bugs). > > > Or maybe if one is lucky, the code you have at 0x04c8 is a table and > > could just be dumped to continue the hunt. > > Looking at what's at 4c8, I think more likely r8 is a pointer to some > kind of large state struct, with 4c8 an offset within that struct. > > I probably will not have the leisure to look at this all that much more > anytime soon. There is a version of my disassembler up for anonymous > FTP (probably at least a little out of date) and the current source is > available for git clone; anyone who cares to is welcome to fetch it and > take over. I really should update the FTPable copy.... > > ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/disas/src/ is the FTPable copy; the git > repo is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I'm qouting from Roger Ivie (comp.sys.dec): I am currently holding the following documents in my grubby little fingers: - Two copies of a rather hefty document titled "rtVAX 300 Hardware Information Kit: Hardware User's Guide" (EK-382AB-UG-002). - One copy of the depressingly slim "rtVAX 300 Hardware Information Kit: Programmer's Guide" (EK-383AA-PG-001), which seems to be all about writing VAXeln device drivers. - One copy of the even slimmer "rtVAX 300 Release Notes" (EK-417AA-RN-001) According to Chapter 6 (Console and Boot ROM Interface): "The rtVAX 300 processor module does not contain an internal console serial-line unit (SLU); however, 16 console registers are reserved in the rtVAX 300 processor reserved space to select and program an external Signetics 2681 console dual universal asynchronous receive/transmitter (SCN 2681 DUART). These regosters occupy physical locations 201000000 to 2010003F. The built-in firmware of the rtVAX 300 programs and communicates with the external SCN 2681 DUART, which implements these console registers." It then refers to table 3-13 for a list of the registers. That table says: 20100000 Channel A mode registers (MRA1, MRA2) (R/W) 20100004 Channel A status register (R) Channel A clock select register (CSRA) (W) 20100008 Reserved (R) Channel A command register (CRA) 2010000C Channel A receive holding register (RHRA) (R) Channel A transmit holding register (THRA) (W) 20100010 Input port change register (IPCR) (R) Auxiliary control register (ACR) (W) 20100014 Channel A/B interrupt status register (ISR) (R) Channel A/B interrupt mask register (IMR) (W) 20100018 Counter/timer interval register upper (CTU) (R) Counter/timer interval register upper (CTUR) (W) 2010001C Counter/timer interval register lower (CTL) (R) Counter/timer interval register lower (CTLR) (W) 20100020 Channel B mode register (MRB1, MRB2) (R/W) 20100024 Channel B status register (SRB) (R) Channel B clock select register (CSRB) (W) 20100028 Reserved (R) Channel B command register (CRB) (W) 2010002C Channel B receive holding register (RHRB) (R) Channel B transmit holding register (THRB) (W) 20100030 Reserved (R/W) 20100034 Input port register (R) Output port configuration register (OPCR) (W) 20100038 Start counter command register (R) Set output port bits command register (W) 2010003c Stop counter command register (R) Reset output port bits commnad register (W) -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net ...so the SCN2681 seems to be the normal way to get some SLU's on a rtVAX300 System and Dave should have one of them somwhere on his board also. Test: >>> d/b 2010000C 41 A >>> d/b 2010000C 42 B >>> d/b 2010000C 43 C >>> :-) Don't have much time the next days (mother in law is getting 60 today), will test further after jan 1. I wish you a happy new year... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From dmhills at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 03:52:45 2012 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 22:52:45 +1300 Subject: IBM hermaphroditic TR connectors In-Reply-To: References: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> <50DB31E6.4070903@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Jason T wrote: > ... As the building networks converted over to Ethernet, we used > these BalUns to run Ethernet through the Type-1 jacks. Probably not > "up to code" and probably not the optimal media for Ethernet. These > were the 10mbps days, too, so in the few cases were we had 16mpbs TR > to the desktops, (theoretical) performance actually decreased! > ... > No problem at all... in fact, Type 1 was usable to 300 meters for 10base-t Ethernet as against 100 meters for UTP. (Lower losses and lower interference.) Using baluns to convert 10base-2 to Type 1 was, as you say, less than optimal but certainly no problem. I used a Type 1 variant, with 6 additional twisted pairs inside the outer shield, to wire my house. (Salvaged from a dumpster when our office moved buildings.) I still use Ugly-plugs for the wall terminations, with Ethernet wired RJ-45 patches from the wall to the equipment. It's not future proof in that I'd need 4 pairs instead of 2 to run 10Gig-E, but I think Gig-E will handle my modest data needs for a while yet. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Dec 27 06:52:41 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 04:52:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: spacewars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356612761.67864.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 1:18 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > >> >> > Certainly, as I said, he and Dabney were inspired by the PDP-6 version of >> > Spacewar they saw at SAIL. They were originally going to go the >> > mini-computer route and have an actual copy of Spacewar running on a coin >> > modded mini, which turned out to be too expensive to have mass produced. >> >> >> it more of cost issue, the mini was not able to run the number of >> terminals that was needed to recover cost of the mini >> I think it was two terminals to break even, three to make a profit >> >> >Tom, cost of production. This is per our direct talks with Bushnell and >Dabney for the Atari book (Atari Inc. - Business is Fun). In fact, Curt and >I had the pleasure of driving around with Ted Dabney to some of the >original locations for a day while he reminisced everything. It had nothing >to do with the number of terminals to make a profit, the cost of the mini >alone would have prohibited them from sales in the coin industry at a time >when typical coin-ops cost in the $500-$1500 range. For even the cheapest >mini at the time (the Data General Nova they considered), you're talking >around $4000 just for an entry level Data General Nova - without enough RAM >let alone the cost of the terminal stations. They decided fairly quickly >that besides the Nova being too slow to run the game on multi-terminal >stations, the cost was way too prohibitive. And this was precisely why >Nolan felt Pitt and Tuck's Galaxy Game (around $17,000) wouldn't go >anywhere, it was impossible for it to scale to mass sales let alone the >cost in upkeep on loctaion. Let alone how long it would have taken an >operator to even begin to recoup those kinds of costs. thanks that explain it more to me as the video I heard were short and to the point from one of those Atari Anthology cds > > >-- >Marty tom From wheagy at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 08:11:42 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 09:11:42 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000and Apple III Message-ID: Mike, I wasn't sure how the driver worked and couldn't find any docs. I assumed it worked in a way similar to the firmware updates...i.e. put the driver in the root of the CF card. Apparently there is more to it. Do you have a pointer to config docs for the driver? I have no floppy disk software at all for the Apple III+. Only .dsk images I downloaded online, so I was hoping to use the CFFA3000 to run the III and perhaps make a few disks if the drive is working. So you're saying that the CFFA3000 in the Apple III is different than in the Apple II. In the II, I don't need any floppy disk software at all and can boot and run from the CFFA....which is good because most of my floppy drives for the II are intermittent at best. I'm not sure of the condition of the floppy drive in the Apple III+. For the Apple III, are you saying that I cannot completely dispose of the use of the floppy drive? Thanks, Win -------- When you say, "tried the CFFA Apple III driver," what exactly do you mean? The driver needs to be configured properly before the III+ will recognize the card. Also, what do you mean when you say you have no floppy software? None at all? As is true of any Apple III, the III+ will only boot from a floppy disk in the internal 5.25" drive, and you will need at least an SOS floppy with the SCP to configure the driver and run the partitioning program. - Mike From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 08:20:49 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 09:20:49 -0500 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DC5941.3000500@verizon.net> On 12/26/2012 03:22 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? > You can see one of the fans at the right of this image: > https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/DEC_PDP-9_709_Power_Supply.jpg?attredirects=0 > Just take them apart and lube the bearings with light machine oil. Using WD40 only dries them out further. If tha tis too hard then Rotron should have something that bolt pattern. Allison From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 08:45:25 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 09:45:25 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave wrote: > It seems things have gone horrible, 50 years ago the code > where I worked was generally good. When I worked on a > professional development team we had coding standards that > were adhered to, did code walk throughs, and had proper > documentation. These days it seems we don't have time for > the checks and balances that make code maintainable and > reliable. Where things really count (embedded, real-time systems) those practices are still maintained. Although I will say that recent CS grads with their "extreme programming" and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on board these days. Consequently, we're hiring fewer and fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older more experienced guys that have learned why good practices are important. Bill S. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 27 08:51:22 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 09:51:22 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:45 AM Subject: RE: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > Dave wrote: > > Where things really count (embedded, real-time systems) > those practices are still maintained. Although I will > say that recent CS grads with their "extreme programming" > and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on > board these days. Consequently, we're hiring fewer and > fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get > their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older > more experienced guys that have learned why good practices > are important. > > Bill S. > Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with that. From wlewisiii at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 09:00:57 2012 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 09:00:57 -0600 Subject: buying an Atari ST Message-ID: I wonder what the state of the art in Atari emulation is? I'm an old Amiga person rather than Atari one so every so often I get an urge to go buy an Amiga 4000. Instead I fire up my copy of E-UAE running AmigaDOS 3.9 and the urge goes away. It runs some old games better than my A500 ever did and I can run the AGA stuff my older machines never could without massive modifications. My eventual goal is to get an old netbook and dedicate it to just running WinUAE. Perhaps the OP might find an Atari emulator the same way? > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:09:30 +0100 > From: Jonas Otter > On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 20:33:36 -0800, "Zane H. Healy" > wrote: >> At 7:54 PM -0800 12/25/12, Tom Sparks wrote: >>> >I am looking at buying an Atari ST, witch model should I look into buying? >> The TT030 is nice very nice and takes a VGA monitor, but I rather >> wish I'd gone for a Falcon. Of course I got my TT030 nearly 15 years >> ago, it was hard to get then, I hate to think how hard it might be to >> get any Atari ST now, or what any Atari computer might cost. >> >> Zane > They are fairly common on auction sites here in Sweden, I got my > 1040STFM a couple of years ago for about 50 Euro, with 2 joysticks, a > custom-built flight case and about 200 floppies with pirated games on. > > If you are prepared to pay for shipping from Europe, you could have a > look on ebay.de (Germany) for example, or one of the other European > national ebay sites. I got mine from Tradera which is owned by ebay > (www.tradera.com), they turn up there every now and then, mostly 520s > and 1040s. Shipping would probably be quite expensive though. > > Jonas William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. Alex White From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 09:10:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:10:46 -0500 Subject: IBM hermaphroditic TR connectors In-Reply-To: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> References: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> Message-ID: <50DC64F6.7070404@neurotica.com> On 12/26/2012 12:05 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have an entire case of adapters, made by Energy Transformation Systems, > Inc. > > I called their tech support this morning, and was told that these were made > for Token Ring connections, using IBM Type 1 or Type A cables? > > There are 2 different PN: > > EB-TRT-I has impedance matching, uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 > > EA-DATA-U does not have impedance matching, also uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 > > > > These have female RJ45 on one end. Apparently they are used to connect to a > MAU? > > They look like these http://www.cuc.eu/en/li/conrj/rjembase/879700.html > > But use pins 3,6 and 5,4. > > > > Anybody trying to resurrect any old TR stuff? I have some TR stuff that I hope to bring up at some point. I'm looking for an IBM 3174-family attachment controller with Ethernet to handle some 3270-family terminals, but I would settle for a TR version (I have a MAU) and use a translational bridge to get there. None of the stuff I'd be using is RJ45-based TR though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 09:17:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:17:41 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <50DC6695.5040801@neurotica.com> On 12/27/2012 09:51 AM, TeoZ wrote: >> Where things really count (embedded, real-time systems) >> those practices are still maintained. Although I will >> say that recent CS grads with their "extreme programming" >> and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on >> board these days. Consequently, we're hiring fewer and >> fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get >> their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older >> more experienced guys that have learned why good practices >> are important. > > Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with > that. Bill wasn't stating a theory that might be nice to try, he pointed out a current industry practice. It is in place and works well. In my company, just a data point, our app developers are all "pretty boys" in their early twenties writing in Java using libraries (and in some cases, algorithms!) that were developed in the past 2-4 WEEKS. The guy writing the firmware (me!) is 43. There's a reason for this. ;) Not to disparage the app-side guys at all, mind you...They (and one guy in particular) are absolute top-notch developers, and are some of the sharpest, smartest programmers I've ever had the honor of working with. They just approach things very differently. One conversation that sticks in my mind, that I had a few months ago with Chuck, the "one guy in particular" I alluded to above...easily one of the sharpest two or three programmers I've met in my career...He said (paraphrased) "I won't use library if it hasn't had any development activity in a month or so". My response was "I don't use one if it HAS had development activity in a YEAR or so!" In his side, where updates involve a quick scp of an executable to the server, being "maintained" is more important. In my side, where updates involve burning a ROM, being "stable" is more important. *I* will "maintain" the code if necessary, if the original developer has abandoned it. Both approaches are correct in their particular contexts. They are different mindsets. The latter one, however, does not appear to be being taught in schools today. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 09:34:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:34:46 -0500 Subject: RMS and decibels, was Re: RMS In-Reply-To: <1356572325.36732.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356312568.41222.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D7C7F0.2070305@sydex.com> <1356379475.7962.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50D8B65F.7090101@neurotica.com> <1356559806.33961.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226170524.R96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356572325.36732.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DC6A96.7070803@neurotica.com> On 12/26/2012 08:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I know what RMS is, where I used to work many years ago it was the > equivalent in heating effect as the specified dc voltage. Or some > such. Yes. In fact, the most accurate RMS to DC converters (as components in RMS voltmeters) are "thermal converters", which convert the input energy to heat, then measure how much DC energy is required to heat another heating element to the same temperature. Measuring the area under a complex RF waveform in real time is tough to do. I have an HP 434A Calorimetric Power Meter, introduced in 1958. It uses a recirculating oil system (it's as much plumbing as electronics) to do just that. See a photo and block diagram about midway down this page: http://www.hpmemory.org/wa_pages/wall_a_page_10.htm Later the same basic setup was implemented by Linear Technology in a DIP package, as the LT1088. Some metrology-grade "true RMS" volmeters, like the Fluke 8506A, use a heating element and a thermocouple in a sealed, evacuated glass bulb. > Frequently we would express voltages in decibels. How often do you > see that being done? Voltages? Not terribly often, but sometimes. dB, however, is a relative measurement...it is not possible to directly represent a voltage in dB. To do so, you could say "dBV", which would be "decibels relative to one volt". It is common (like about 100% common) in electronics to represent RF power in dBm, decibels in relation to one milliwatt". For example, a common doubly-balanced mixer has an input drive level of +7dBm, which is 7dB higher than one milliwatt, or roughly 5mW. 20dBm, or 20dB over 1mW, is 100mW. dB for ratios, like gain or attenuation figures, and dBm for absolute power, is a lot more convenient to work with than (say) mW. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 09:36:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:36:51 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <1356563889.89165.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> <1356563889.89165.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DC6B13.4040905@neurotica.com> On 12/26/2012 06:18 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the M20 (the M24 >> is the actual equivalent). > > Equivalent? Hardly; it's the same damn machine. ;) But no, we know > they're quite different. We were talking about the design > similarities. > > C: "Same damn"..."equivalent"...o man head hurts. Sorry for the nitpick. >> That is a slamming machine though if you managed to get your hands >> on one. I'm jelli > > The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact, > slam. > > C: I was referencing the M20. The 6300/M24/Xerox 6040 (IIRC) is cool > enough but nowhere near as cool > > I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all > back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved > the floppy and hard drive at least. Uh yeah. And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis. WTF man? It's not like the boards will fit in anything else. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 09:43:38 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:43:38 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DC6695.5040801@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50DC6695.5040801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <03c401cde448$f0d8a300$d289e900$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > In my side, where updates involve burning a ROM, Not to mention bricking a unit in the field. :-) Bill S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 09:54:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:54:32 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <03c401cde448$f0d8a300$d289e900$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50DC6695.5040801@neurotica.com> <03c401cde448$f0d8a300$d289e900$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50DC6F38.3000209@neurotica.com> On 12/27/2012 10:43 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> In my side, where updates involve burning a ROM, > > Not to mention bricking a unit in the field. :-) Yes. Did I tell you I flew to Texas the week before last? ;) Galveston is nice! GREAT food. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 27 10:09:58 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 08:09:58 -0800 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <50DBA38C.4050804@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB99FB.4010801@bitsavers.org> <1356569941.92550.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356570763.80735.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DBA38C.4050804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121227080958.0d5e2cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 17:25:32 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/26/12 5:12 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I was curious what y'all use. > > > > I use John Wilson's adapter board > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Same Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 10:14:51 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:14:51 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DC6F38.3000209@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50DC6695.5040801@neurotica.com> <03c401cde448$f0d8a300$d289e900$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50DC6F38.3000209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <03d101cde44d$4d403280$e7c09780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/27/2012 10:43 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> In my side, where updates involve burning a ROM, > > > > Not to mention bricking a unit in the field. :-) > > Yes. Did I tell you I flew to Texas the week > before last? ;) Yes, you did. And I told you about the Los Alamos trip that I can't tell you about. ;-) Bill S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 10:51:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:51:37 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <03d101cde44d$4d403280$e7c09780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> <50DC6695.5040801@neurotica.com> <03c401cde448$f0d8a300$d289e900$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50DC6F38.3000209@neurotica.com> <03d101cde44d$4d403280$e7c09780$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50DC7C99.3030509@neurotica.com> On 12/27/2012 11:14 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>>> In my side, where updates involve burning a ROM, >>> >>> Not to mention bricking a unit in the field. :-) >> >> Yes. Did I tell you I flew to Texas the week >> before last? ;) > > Yes, you did. And I told you about the Los Alamos trip > that I can't tell you about. ;-) Ahh yes. :-) (in my world these days, that email exchange may well have been a century ago!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 27 11:07:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB83D5.7040209@sydex.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <50DB83D5.7040209@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201212271707.MAA23550@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Still, for its time, until the rise (and fall) of PL/I, COBOL had a > lot of interesting features that other languages didn't have--[...] > the PERFORM verb. Statements like EXAMINE/INSPECT, TALLYING or > REPLACING.... ...ALTER... :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 27 13:13:37 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:13:37 -0700 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DC9DE1.5090307@brouhaha.com> Michael Thompson wrote: > Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? If the fan is malfunctioning rather than completely missing, it's possible to rebuild them. Otherwise it seems unlikely that you'll be able to find an exact match if you care about authenticity. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Dec 27 13:12:53 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:12:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356635573.93745.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > I wonder what the state of the art in Atari emulation is? atari coldfire project[1] and Hatari[2] > > I'm an old Amiga person rather than Atari one so every so often I get > an urge to go buy an Amiga 4000. Instead I fire up my copy of E-UAE > running AmigaDOS 3.9 and the urge goes away. It runs some old games > better than my A500 ever did and I can run the AGA stuff my older > machines never could without massive modifications. > > My eventual goal is to get an old netbook and dedicate it to just > running WinUAE. > > Perhaps the OP might find an Atari emulator the same way? emulation dose have its advantages (overclocking,? emulation of all systems) but have physical system also has its advantages (engaging four senses (touch, smell, sight, hearing), bragging rights) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Coldfire_Project [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatari_%28emulator%29 --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2,? Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee?Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 27 13:15:38 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:15:38 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DC9E5A.2040209@brouhaha.com> Mike Maginnis wrote: > As is true of any Apple III, the III+ will only boot from a > floppy disk in the internal 5.25" drive, Well, in a pinch you can boot from the keyboard, if you don't mind typing in a lot of hexadecimal. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 27 13:18:14 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:18:14 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DC9EF6.5040901@brouhaha.com> Win Heagy wrote: > So you're saying that > the CFFA3000 in the Apple III is different than in the Apple II. The CFFA is exactly the same. It's the computer that is different. The III boot ROM only knows how to boot from the 5 1/4" floppy. (Or the keyboard.) > For the Apple III, are you saying that I cannot completely > dispose of the use of the floppy drive? Unless you replace the boot ROM with an EPROM with a modified monitor that knows how to boot from another device. Shouldn't be too hard, but AFAIK it doesn't currently exist. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 13:54:04 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 19:54:04 +0000 Subject: IBM hermaphroditic TR connectors In-Reply-To: <50DC64F6.7070404@neurotica.com> References: <003901cde38b$2ad05cb0$80711610$@com> <50DC64F6.7070404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50DCA75C.40406@gmail.com> On 27/12/2012 15:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/26/2012 12:05 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> I have an entire case of adapters, made by Energy Transformation Systems, >> Inc. >> >> I called their tech support this morning, and was told that these were made >> for Token Ring connections, using IBM Type 1 or Type A cables? >> >> There are 2 different PN: >> >> EB-TRT-I has impedance matching, uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 >> >> EA-DATA-U does not have impedance matching, also uses pins 3,6 and 5,4 >> >> >> >> These have female RJ45 on one end. Apparently they are used to connect to a >> MAU? >> >> They look like these http://www.cuc.eu/en/li/conrj/rjembase/879700.html >> >> But use pins 3,6 and 5,4. >> >> >> >> Anybody trying to resurrect any old TR stuff? > I have some TR stuff that I hope to bring up at some point. I'm > looking for an IBM 3174-family attachment controller with Ethernet to > handle some 3270-family terminals, but I would settle for a TR version > (I have a MAU) and use a translational bridge to get there. > > None of the stuff I'd be using is RJ45-based TR though. I have a 3174 with a token ring card and use a DB9 to RJ45 adaptor into an IBM 8226 with RJ45 sockets. http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/default/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=2060315&storeId=1&catalogId=-840&langId=-1 I also have a couple of PCMCIA cards and some PCI token ring cards all of which have RJ45 sockets on. I use a Cisco 2612 like this:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/121042548117 to link the networks. Main issue is that my nasty BT Home Home won't let me change its routing table so I have to use NAT to get to the internet from the token ring world, although the 2612 is only 10 Megs on the internet. > -Dave > Dave G4UGM From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 27 13:45:42 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:45:42 -0800 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: <50DC9DE1.5090307@brouhaha.com> References: <50DC9DE1.5090307@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50DCA566.6000902@jwsss.com> Do you have any dimensions? I may have one in my pile somewhere, but will have to look. The problem is that shape came in 4" as well as 5" form and the bolt pattern that is similar to the Rotron pattern may or may not be the one you need. I've seen both in my pile at one time or another. the problem will be finding them. Jim On 12/27/2012 11:13 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Michael Thompson wrote: >> Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? > > If the fan is malfunctioning rather than completely missing, it's > possible to rebuild them. Otherwise it seems unlikely that you'll be > able to find an exact match if you care about authenticity. > > > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 15:48:09 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:48:09 -0600 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen that fan used in numerour other pieces of DEC equipment. The LA30 perhaps? Paul On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? > You can see one of the fans at the right of this image: > https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/DEC_PDP-9_709_Power_Supply.jpg?attredirects=0 > > -- > Michael Thompson From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 16:11:30 2012 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:11:30 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III In-Reply-To: <50DC9E5A.2040209@brouhaha.com> References: <50DC9E5A.2040209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Mike Maginnis wrote: >> >> As is true of any Apple III, the III+ will only boot from a >> floppy disk in the internal 5.25" drive, > > > Well, in a pinch you can boot from the keyboard, if you don't mind typing in > a lot of hexadecimal. > > True! I should have been more specific. - Mike From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Dec 27 16:16:02 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 22:16:02 +0000 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We have those in the rack with a TC08, and we recently rebuilt them. Wailing solved! :-) Yes, avoid using WD40 as anything but a cleaning agent - make sure to use a medium-viscosity lubricant when you put them back together. It looks to me that as long as these are maintained reasonably they should last for a long time, unlike the sealed "lifetime-lubricated" units we buy today. ("Lifetime-lubricated" means that when it dies, that's its lifetime, no appeal.) -- Ian On 12/27/12 1:48 PM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: >I've seen that fan used in numerour other pieces of DEC equipment. The >LA30 perhaps? > >Paul > >On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Michael Thompson > wrote: >> Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? >> You can see one of the fans at the right of this image: >> >>https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-p >>dp-9/DEC_PDP-9_709_Power_Supply.jpg?attredirects=0 >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson > > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 16:43:54 2012 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:43:54 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Win Heagy wrote: > Mike, > > I wasn't sure how the driver worked and couldn't find any docs. I assumed > it worked in a way similar to the firmware updates...i.e. put the driver in > the root of the CF card. Apparently there is more to it. Do you have a > pointer to config docs for the driver? > > I have no floppy disk software at all for the Apple III+. Only .dsk images > I downloaded online, so I was hoping to use the CFFA3000 to run the III and > perhaps make a few disks if the drive is working. So you're saying that > the CFFA3000 in the Apple III is different than in the Apple II. In the > II, I don't need any floppy disk software at all and can boot and run from > the CFFA....which is good because most of my floppy drives for the II are > intermittent at best. I'm not sure of the condition of the floppy drive in > the Apple III+. For the Apple III, are you saying that I cannot completely > dispose of the use of the floppy drive? > > Thanks, > > Win > > -------- > -- Win, Unlike the II, which is relatively easy to configure to boot to any (bootable) storage device in nearly any slot, the Apple III tries to boot only from the internal floppy drive, and as Eric pointed out, you'd have to roll your own ROM to change that behavior. The CFFA3000 works nicely in the III, but you lose the Drive ][ emulation capability and you can't boot directly to it. In the Apple III, everything is seen as a device and requires a driver that SOS loads as it boots in order to be accessible to the system during operation. You can't (easily) boot directly to the CFFA because SOS requires a driver to be able to recognize it. Fortunately, SOS is close enough to ProDOS that you can use the CFFA in an Apple II to create floppies from the images you downloaded. I'd suggest reading this PDF for more on how the III works: http;//apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf It's the Osborne McGraw Hill Guide To Your Apply III. Pay special attention to Chapters 3 and 4. LMK if you have any questions about all this. - Mike From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 16:44:50 2012 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:44:50 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Mike Maginnis wrote: > http;//apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf Oops: http://apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 15:17:47 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:17:47 -0600 Subject: spacewars In-Reply-To: <1356612761.67864.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356612761.67864.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > > thanks that explain it more No problem. > to me as the video I heard were short and to the point > > from one of those Atari Anthology cds > > > > > tom > > > Ok, that explains it. If you're talking about what Nolan says on those, he's known for "waxing philosophical" in these and other interviews. (That's how fomer Atarian Steve Bristow phrases it). It basically means he likes to "fill in the gaps" by creating a grander tale, or "better story" that usually has to do with upping his PR as well. That's where you have the stories in those videos like the one he tells regarding him tying up N-channel chip (NMOS) manufacturers for the "custom chip" of the 2600, which simply never happened. Another way of putting it might be "tall tales" or "fast and loose with the facts." ;) We had to do a lot of vetting with his material for the Atari book because of that. -- Marty From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:20:08 2012 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:20:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: CFFA3000and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356650408.89294.YahooMailRC@web181604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mike Maginnis > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Sent: Thu, December 27, 2012 4:50:48 PM > Subject: Re: CFFA3000and Apple III > > I'd suggest reading this PDF for more on how the III works: > > http;//apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf > > It's the Osborne McGraw Hill Guide To Your Apply III. Pay special > attention to Chapters 3 and 4. Thank you so much for that link! I have been looking for a scan of that book for ages. Each one I found just ended around chapter 3 and I was beginning to think I'd have to scan my copy of the book but didn't want to damage it in trying to scan it. My Apple III and I thank you! ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:25:46 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:25:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356650746.96077.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin > Chuck pointed out that FREQUENCY was more significant, > and could DESTROY a 5151, and that voltage [if it WERE > a problem] needed but a resistor network. On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Note though that I never did say "IBM 5151" which was notoriously > sensitive. That is true.? You said "an Eagle 5151 clone" Some people interpret "clone" to mean the "exact same thing from another manufacturer". Did you mean "somewthing vaguely similar, with same specs, but without the known design weaknesses"? C: I didn't manufacture nor own a detailed description of it's innards. There are other 5151 workalikes out there I'm sure. ??? I would have thought you know what the Eagle PC is. It's the monitor that sits on top. > I still could be wrong, but whereas Chuck states that 30 khz > is what we're shooting for, I would bet the farm that the AT & T's > horizontal scan rate is actually much lover (23-25 khz). I still could > be wrong, but then again we're not talking about a fixed frequency vga > monitor in reality. I don't know anything about such things. C: So why you bugging me? I'm just trying to clarify what is being argued about. It would help ENORMOUSLY to get it straight whether you, or Chuck, have actually DONE what either of you suggest, or are merely speculating about possibilities. "you can", "you could", "would be" do NOT answer that! C: I'm sure you're old enough to remember horizontal and vertical controls on your tv. Remember when it used to roll? You'd reach around back and twist a trimpot (or capacitor, don't know nor care) to make it stop. Well in effect what you were doing was altering the vertical scanning frequency, more then likely due to drift (cold set?). Every monitor has that control, and also one to alter the hsync frequency (if it was off, you'd see a "taring" or stretching of the picture from side to side. No I haven't tried it, but being that a 5151 (clone) is as close if not closer to the frequencies the 6300 was putting out, it seemed a natural choice. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:27:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:27:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <20121226174242.E96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174242.E96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356650879.19456.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin From: Al Kossow : > If you are going to read old floppies, find a Shugart 851 and a Adaptec > AHA-1522 ISA host adapter, and/or a PCI Catweasel if you need to image > esoteric formats. > On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: what about the S* 801? Do you mean the AHA-1522A or -B or does it not > matter? SHUGART 801 is SINGLE sided SHUGART 851 is DOUBLE sided. C: But we already discussed the Option Board s/w's ability to specify whether you're reading single sided or double sided disks (I think), so there's no reason for me searching for a double sided model. I don't think... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:30:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <1356565560.12093.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174925.K96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356651051.49878.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: is the feature necessary for reading likely hum drum ms-dos (*not* > IBM compatible) formats? Neither the NEC APC, Canon AS-100, nor IBM > Displaywriter used that nasty little thing. Do you wish to read any disks that are FM/"Single Density"? Do you wish to read any disks that are MFM, with 128 byte sectors? BZZZZZ WHIIIIIIIIR *BANG* *POP POP* I DO NOT KNOW DOES NOT COMPUTE I HAVE NO DOCS I ONLY KNOW THAT THEY BELONG TO THE CANON AS-100 NEC APC AND THE IBM DISPLAYWRITER UNIT ARE YOU THE KREATOR From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:33:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <20121226175406.T96558@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226175406.T96558@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356651217.26641.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin From: Al Kossow > I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was > using a Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the > address mark on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I > switched to the AHA-1522 with a 8473A. > I'll double-check that there really was a problem with S36 disks and > non-A 8473's.. On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Is the adapter you used similar to what Dave Dunfield describes on > his site? ADAPTER??!?? WHAT ADAPTER? Or are you CHANGING the subject to ask about how to cable it? (which is NOT mentioned nor even implied in what you just quoted) **BANG BANG** *POP* IT IS NATURAL IN HUMAN UNITS FOR CONVERSATION TO PROGRESS TO OTHER MATTERS ONCE PRELIMINARY MATTERS ARE SETTLED *WHHHHZZZZZZZZZ* *BANG* MOST HUMAN UNITS ARE ACCUSTOMED TO SUBJECT MATTER BEING MODIFIED From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:36:01 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <6D59B3C0-A3D4-4A23-A617-35DE043B806B@mactec.com.au> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> <6D59B3C0-A3D4-4A23-A617-35DE043B806B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <1356651361.78263.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Pye On 27/12/2012, at 10:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Howzbout PC/JX?? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with > 720K 5.25" drives available. I have an IBM JX (in Australia)..? Nicely built machine, but rather useless. Of the few I have seen (including mine) they all look like they have never been used, probably because there isn't a great deal of software they can run.? Surprisingly the infra red keyboard actually works ok. Chris C: Want to sell it? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:37:48 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:37:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356651468.53339.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> holy crap somebody search this guy's house for weapons. He is one nasty individual! ________________________________ From: geneb To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 10:41 PM Subject: Re: My IBM 5150 on YouTube On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > C: wow now you're in the big leagues. A real peecee. Holy. World look out. > If I wanted to hear from you, I'd hold you down and pour molten lead down your throat until the morse code embedded in your gurgling told me what I wanted to know. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:41:23 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:41:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DC6B13.4040905@neurotica.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> <1356563889.89165.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DC6B13.4040905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356651683.28893.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire > I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all > back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved > the floppy and hard drive at least. ? Uh yeah.? And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis.? WTF man? It's not like the boards will fit in anything else. ?C: You can make them fit in anything if you're determined. ????? You didn't answer my question though... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:48:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <1356635573.93745.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356635573.93745.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356652105.14678.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Tom Sparks [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Coldfire_Project [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatari_%28emulator%29 C: I had thought it would be fun to create an Atari like computer (possibly based on multiple Coldfire cpus?). It would look like an Atari ST, but would be bigger, and cooler ;). I also liked the look of the Sega SC-3000h Yenos I got from Australia years ago (and since sold), which were similar, but black. I guess the Atari ST on steroids clone I'd like to create would need to be available in multiple colors. Perhaps after I move in a few weeks I'll be able to start entertaining such projects. ?Another idea would be to allow cpu plug ins differing from a Coldfire cpu, MIPS, Intel, PowerPC, etc. Maybe 2 Coldfires though natively for extra horsepower. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:51:14 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:51:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <1356635573.93745.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356635573.93745.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356652274.34006.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> incidentally I know a guy who has or had a Falcon in Kentucky. I don't have the money to play around. If someone were interested, I could contact him. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 18:08:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:08:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356650746.96077.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356650746.96077.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356653305.75759.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It turns out Chuck was dead on (don't know why he didn't just say so, maybe he forgot): http://ftp.qrz.ru/pub/hamradio/schemes/monitors/olivetti/OLIVETTI-MDU-1231/olive-a1.pdf on pg.14 according to Adobe or 1-8 in the manual it states the frequency is in fact 31.5 khz, which is very strange. Most computer w/400 line video cards can use one another's monitors. I bow my head in shame. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 27 18:30:30 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 17:30:30 -0700 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > Yes, avoid using WD40 as anything but a cleaning > agent WD-40 is not a cleaning agent either. It's a water displacer, and can remove some other kinds of residue, but it then leaves behind its own residue. You need to use some other solvent AFTER you use WD-40 for it's intended purpose, and THEN use a real lubricant. I've seldom (perhaps never) seen any situation in computer repair or restoration where WD-40 was an appropriate thing to use. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 27 18:30:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:30:24 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356650746.96077.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20121224210244.Q55609@shell.lmi.net> <1356560478.72248.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226172006.O96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356650746.96077.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DCE820.1020605@sydex.com> On 12/27/2012 03:25 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: (hold controls on monitors)...and also one to alter the hsync frequency Well, that's the problem with the 5151. Somewhere back in this discussion I mentioned that it didn't have the standard oscillator-with-synchronizer setup. And indeed the 5151 has no horizontal hold control. The horizontal sync signal directly feeds the base of the horizontal amplifier, TR22, which then drives the horizontal output TR23 through transformer T501, which then drives the flyback transformer T502. No oscillator whatever. There are width and linearity coils in series with the horizontal deflection coil, but that's it. And that's the huge weakness in the 5151--rather than drop horizontal sync and go into a roll, it'll stay synchronized to whatever horizontal sync pulse that's given to it, even if it means blowing out the FBT, which happened more often than IBM let onto on the 5151. ...which is what I've been trying to get at all along. The 5151 is too stupid to just lose sync if the horizontal frequency is out of range. It does have a vertical oscillator (in IC401) but nothing in the horizontal. I don't have a copy of the schematic for the Egale PC (or even the Eagle 1600 for that matter), but I suspect that, to keep costs down, it was just as brain-dead. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 27 19:12:53 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 19:12:53 -0600 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DCF215.7080702@pico-systems.com> > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 09:20:49 -0500 > From: allison > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Fans for a PDP-9? > Message-ID: <50DC5941.3000500 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 12/26/2012 03:22 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a source of fans for a PDP-9? >> You can see one of the fans at the right of this image: >> https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/DEC_PDP-9_709_Power_Supply.jpg?attredirects=0 >> >> > > Just take them apart and lube the bearings with light machine oil. Using > WD40 only dries them out further. > > If tha tis too hard then Rotron should have something that bolt pattern. > These are from pre-boxer fan days, the old "phonograph style" motor. They have oilite (porous sintered bronze) bearings mounted in a cotton oil wick. You can add a lot of oil to the wick material and let it soak in, then clean and oil the bearing and shaft when reassembling. By the time the surface oil is used up, new oil from the wick should soak through. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 19:31:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 20:31:30 -0500 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <1356651683.28893.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , , , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , , , , , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> , , <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com> <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com> <1356563889.89165.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DC6B13.4040905@neurotica.com> <1356651683.28893.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DCF672.5030304@neurotica.com> On 12/27/2012 06:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all >> back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved >> the floppy and hard drive at least. > > Uh yeah. And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis. WTF man? > It's not like the boards will fit in anything else. > > C: You can make them fit in anything if you're determined. > > You didn't answer my question though... Ah, I guess I thought it was rhetorical. Ordinarily I'd be up for it, but the last time I saw the innards of one of these machines was about 1985...I doubt I'd be of much help. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 19:40:20 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 17:40:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: *very rare* NEC APC III on eBay, Wisconsin Rapids, WI Message-ID: <1356658820.32490.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> no keyboard unfortunately, but I have one, and could help the buyer get it up and running. Extremely rare pseudo compatible. I've never seen one o/w on ebay. Shipping is high, but maybe you can talk about that. From wheagy at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 20:33:47 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 21:33:47 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III Message-ID: Great, thanks. I DL'd the book and will read through it (your second link). The III operates somewhat differently than I expected. Sounds like my first step is to get SOS on a floppy so I can test the III and make sure there are no disk drive issues before proceeding to the CFFA. Based on my experience with the CFFA and the Apple II, I was thinking it was going to be a bit more straightforward. Thanks for the info. Win --- Unlike the II, which is relatively easy to configure to boot to any (bootable) storage device in nearly any slot, the Apple III tries to boot only from the internal floppy drive, and as Eric pointed out, you'd have to roll your own ROM to change that behavior. The CFFA3000 works nicely in the III, but you lose the Drive ][ emulation capability and you can't boot directly to it. In the Apple III, everything is seen as a device and requires a driver that SOS loads as it boots in order to be accessible to the system during operation. You can't (easily) boot directly to the CFFA because SOS requires a driver to be able to recognize it. Fortunately, SOS is close enough to ProDOS that you can use the CFFA in an Apple II to create floppies from the images you downloaded. I'd suggest reading this PDF for more on how the III works: http;//apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf It's the Osborne McGraw Hill Guide To Your Apply III. Pay special attention to Chapters 3 and 4. LMK if you have any questions about all this. - Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 27 20:46:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 18:46:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356650879.19456.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174242.E96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356650879.19456.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121227184458.A20159@shell.lmi.net> > SHUGART 801 is SINGLE sided > SHUGART 851 is DOUBLE sided. On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: But we already discussed the Option Board s/w's ability to specify > whether you're reading single sided or double sided disks (I think), so > there's no reason for me searching for a double sided model. I don't > think... ONCE MORE! Do you want to read double sided disks? If so, then you need the 851. Option board will certainly not give you capability of reading double sided disks in a single sided drive. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 27 20:58:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 18:58:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <1356651468.53339.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356651468.53339.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121227185653.Y20159@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > holy crap somebody search this guy's house for weapons. He is one nasty > individual! Why? The penalties are probably no more sever than for the RoHS violations. Besides, what need for firearms if one has molten lead and an F15? From polemon at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 21:15:54 2012 From: polemon at gmail.com (polemon) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 04:15:54 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXstation 3100/M76 RAM (MS44-AA) Message-ID: Hello, this is my first post to this ml, so please bear with me... I've become something of an DEC enthusiast since I pulled a VT220 out of a dumpster of my university. I have two VAXstations by now, one of those is a VAXstation 3100/M76 and it has always been a project to max-out the RAM and get a new hard drive for it. Getting that stuff on Ebay is (a) increadibly expensive and (b) mostly not possible at all, because they only sell to companies. I need RAM modules (at least four of them), hard drives, those weird flat screws with their rubbery-plastic gromits, and possibly a terminator for the external SCSI bus. I got spare RTCs (DS1387), it was no problem getting the drop-in replacements for that from Maxim. I live in Germany, there haven't been too many DEC users here, DEC was mostly USA. I'll pay for shipping and basically any price you ask, except it's those comical prices on ebay (4000 USD for a VAXstation main board with CPU, no RAM, no case, no drives; or 60 USD for a single RAM module). Please, if you're willing to send some of your stuff over to Old Europe, please let me know... Cheers, --polemon From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 27 21:53:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 19:53:28 -0800 Subject: Looking for VAXstation 3100/M76 RAM (MS44-AA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:15 AM +0100 12/28/12, polemon wrote: >I live in Germany, there haven't been too many DEC users here, DEC was >mostly USA. I'll pay for shipping and basically any price you ask, except >it's those comical prices on ebay (4000 USD for a VAXstation main board >with CPU, no RAM, no case, no drives; or 60 USD for a single RAM module). You probably don't want to hear this, but it *might* be cheaper to find a system with RAM in it. I'm reminded of the AlphaStation 500/333 I foolishly bought from Compaq. It has 96Mb of RAM, so not really usable for VMS. I was able to get a DEC PWS 433au (a better system by far) for far less money than the RAM upgrade. Except for certain Alpha's (using PC parity SIMMs or DIMMs) getting RAM, as a hobbyist, for DEC gear has always been painful. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 27 22:01:46 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 21:01:46 -0700 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <20121227185653.Y20159@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356651468.53339.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121227185653.Y20159@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50DD19AA.3010401@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/27/2012 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> holy crap somebody search this guy's house for weapons. He is one nasty >> individual! > > Why? > The penalties are probably no more sever than for the RoHS violations. > > Besides, what need for firearms if one has molten lead and an F15? Aviation fuel does make life easier though. > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 27 22:03:04 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 20:03:04 -0800 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <50DCF672.5030304@neurotica.com> References: , , , ,,<503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , ,,, , , ,,<503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , ,,, , ,,, , ,,<503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> ,,, <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com>, , , , <50D9FFBC.80807@neurotica.com> , <50DA1176.3060708@neurotica.com>, <1356560941.15831.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <50DB811C.1050405@neurotica.com>, <1356563889.89165.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <50DC6B13.4040905@neurotica.com>, <1356651683.28893.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <50DCF672.5030304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi I started this when I was talking about the monitor. Although, the M24/6300has a different connector, I've been told that the monitor was compatablewith either.The M20 had a 8086 board that was made to handle some DOS programs.To bad most couldn't use the M20's color graphics.Olivetti also made a M20 compatable add on board for the M20/6300to keep there customers happy.The M20 ws originally intended to use the memory management chip fromZilog but it never happened. It used a mapping ROM that allowed theZ8000 to use 128K within one segement by splitting the code space fromthe data space.Still, even though the Z8001 could address 1Meg of memory, the M20 couldonly take 512K. This was because several parts of memory needed to haveto logical mirror address. Especially those that were for code space only.These needed to have a data space address as well to be able to loadfrom disk. This dual memory makes it neccesary to have a memory maphandy when using the debugger. Break points need to be entered as dataspace and well as any code editing.This memory mapping is partly why getting an emulator running has beendifficult. One fellow in Germny is still working on it.Dwight > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 20:31:30 -0500 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 > > On 12/27/2012 06:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all > >> back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved > >> the floppy and hard drive at least. > > > > Uh yeah. And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis. WTF man? > > It's not like the boards will fit in anything else. > > > > C: You can make them fit in anything if you're determined. > > > > You didn't answer my question though... > > Ah, I guess I thought it was rhetorical. > > Ordinarily I'd be up for it, but the last time I saw the innards of > one of these machines was about 1985...I doubt I'd be of much help. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 22:23:42 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 02:23:42 -0200 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356651468.53339.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6BB82684350540AA9D8862197D8260F8@tababook> >If I wanted to hear from you, I'd hold you down and pour molten lead down >your throat until the morse code >embedded in your gurgling told me what I >wanted to know. Is it tasteful? :oD From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 22:53:03 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:53:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356651217.26641.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB8558.7050906@sydex.com> <50DB8FDC.4050903@bitsavers.org> <1356566958.62472.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226175406.T96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356651217.26641.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2012, at 6:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > > > From: Al Kossow >> I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was >> using a Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the >> address mark on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I >> switched to the AHA-1522 with a 8473A. >> I'll double-check that there really was a problem with S36 disks and >> non-A 8473's.. > > On Wed, 26 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C: Is the adapter you used similar to what Dave Dunfield describes on >> his site? > > ADAPTER??!? WHAT ADAPTER? > Or are you CHANGING the subject to ask about how to cable it? > (which is NOT mentioned nor even implied in what you just quoted) > > **BANG BANG** *POP* IT IS NATURAL IN HUMAN UNITS FOR CONVERSATION TO PROGRESS TO OTHER MATTERS ONCE PRELIMINARY MATTERS ARE SETTLED *WHHHHZZZZZZZZZ* *BANG* MOST HUMAN UNITS ARE ACCUSTOMED TO SUBJECT MATTER BEING MODIFIED Here's a crazy idea: CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE IN THE E-MAIL. - Josh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 23:42:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 03:42:05 -0200 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> > If you are going to read old floppies, find a Shugart 851 and a Adaptec > AHA-1522 ISA host > adapter, and/or a PCI Catweasel if you need to image esoteric formats. Why specifically the AHA1522, Al? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 00:28:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 04:28:56 -0200 Subject: buying an Atari ST References: Message-ID: > I'm an old Amiga person rather than Atari one so every so often I get > an urge to go buy an Amiga 4000. Instead I fire up my copy of E-UAE > running AmigaDOS 3.9 and the urge goes away. It runs some old games > better than my A500 ever did and I can run the AGA stuff my older > machines never could without massive modifications. Even the demos? I doubt you can play with a Video Toaster :o) From pinball at telus.net Thu Dec 27 17:48:25 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:48:25 -0800 Subject: spacewars In-Reply-To: <1356612761.67864.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356612761.67864.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DCDE49.2040009@telus.net> Tom Sparks wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 1:18 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> > > >>>> Certainly, as I said, he and Dabney were inspired by the PDP-6 version of >>>> Spacewar they saw at SAIL. They were originally going to go the >>>> mini-computer route and have an actual copy of Spacewar running on a coin >>>> modded mini, which turned out to be too expensive to have mass produced. >>>> >>> it more of cost issue, the mini was not able to run the number of >>> terminals that was needed to recover cost of the mini >>> I think it was two terminals to break even, three to make a profit >>> >>> >>> >> Tom, cost of production. This is per our direct talks with Bushnell and >> Dabney for the Atari book (Atari Inc. - Business is Fun). In fact, Curt and >> I had the pleasure of driving around with Ted Dabney to some of the >> original locations for a day while he reminisced everything. It had nothing >> to do with the number of terminals to make a profit, the cost of the mini >> alone would have prohibited them from sales in the coin industry at a time >> when typical coin-ops cost in the $500-$1500 range. For even the cheapest >> mini at the time (the Data General Nova they considered), you're talking >> around $4000 just for an entry level Data General Nova - without enough RAM >> let alone the cost of the terminal stations. They decided fairly quickly >> that besides the Nova being too slow to run the game on multi-terminal >> stations, the cost was way too prohibitive. And this was precisely why >> Nolan felt Pitt and Tuck's Galaxy Game (around $17,000) wouldn't go >> anywhere, it was impossible for it to scale to mass sales let alone the >> cost in upkeep on loctaion. Let alone how long it would have taken an >> operator to even begin to recoup those kinds of costs. >> > > thanks that explain it more to me as the video I heard were short and to the point > > from one of those Atari Anthology cds > >> -- >> Marty >> > tom > > > > And what about the Vectorbeam (Cinematronics) SPACE WAR from 1977? Done entirely with TTL logic...or was that discussion elsewhere on this thread that runs through at least two mail lists... John :-#)# From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 27 19:27:26 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 17:27:26 -0800 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <6D59B3C0-A3D4-4A23-A617-35DE043B806B@mactec.com.au> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> <6D59B3C0-A3D4-4A23-A617-35DE043B806B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <50DCF57E.90802@jwsss.com> On 12/26/2012 6:10 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > On 27/12/2012, at 10:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Howzbout PC/JX? NOT available EVER in USA, but legit IBM machine with >> 720K 5.25" drives available. > I have an IBM JX (in Australia).. Nicely built machine, but rather useless. > Of the few I have seen (including mine) they all look like they have never been used, probably because there isn't a great deal of software they can run. Surprisingly the infra red keyboard actually works ok. > > Chris > > I'm curious if it is built in Australia, or if it is an oddball Korean PC. While working @ Ultimate many years ago, someone wanted a Hangul terminal, and when it showed up it was a really odd unit with 3 1/2 inch side by side floppy drives. I had at the time been using Dos enough that I could guess what most messages were even though they were in Hangul. It hooked up via both serial and 3270 interfaces. Wish I could have snagged it, but it was sent off somewhere in the US for other vendors to work on it, and probably scrapped there, as there was little chance of it going back to Korea. Jim From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 20:35:35 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 20:35:35 -0600 Subject: spacewars In-Reply-To: <50DCDE49.2040009@telus.net> References: <1356612761.67864.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DCDE49.2040009@telus.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 5:48 PM, John Robertson wrote: > > And what about the Vectorbeam (Cinematronics) SPACE WAR from 1977? Done > entirely with TTL logic...or was that discussion elsewhere on this thread > that runs through at least two mail lists... > > John :-#)# > > Yes, that was discussed elsewhere in the thread. Don't know how this got into two mailing list, only started with my original post to one. It's also outside the late 60s scope I was asking about. Just for clarification, The Cineamtronics/Vectorbeam version is not done entirely with TTL logic. It's comprised of a TTL based psuedo incarnation of a PDP-8 instruction set (a TTL based PDP-8 simulator if you will) that in turn is running the actual software for the PDP-8 version of Spacewar, which Rosenthal licesned from MIT. -- Marty From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 00:36:33 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 04:36:33 -0200 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I've seldom (perhaps never) seen any situation in computer repair or > restoration where WD-40 was an appropriate thing to use. In Brazil (that we don't have goo gone) is an excellent solvent to pull stickers and residual glue. In USA of course you have goo gone... :o( From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 00:53:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 22:53:03 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> Since we're discussing STs, does anyone have a spare ST mouse kicking around? I'd like to re-wire one for use on my AT&T 6300. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Dec 28 00:55:26 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 06:55:26 -0000 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: WD40 will bring back a dried out ribbon at least for a while. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 28 December 2012 00:31 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fans for a PDP-9? Ian King wrote: > Yes, avoid using WD40 as anything but a cleaning > agent WD-40 is not a cleaning agent either. It's a water displacer, and can remove some other kinds of residue, but it then leaves behind its own residue. You need to use some other solvent AFTER you use WD-40 for it's intended purpose, and THEN use a real lubricant. I've seldom (perhaps never) seen any situation in computer repair or restoration where WD-40 was an appropriate thing to use. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 01:28:34 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 05:28:34 -0200 Subject: buying an Atari ST References: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> Message-ID: Amiga mice are equal or very similar (circuit-wise), AFAIK. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 4:53 AM Subject: Re: buying an Atari ST > Since we're discussing STs, does anyone have a spare ST mouse kicking > around? I'd like to re-wire one for use on my AT&T 6300. > > --Chuck > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 28 01:55:40 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 01:55:40 -0600 Subject: Kaypro help Message-ID: <50DD507C.9010700@jbrain.com> It appears I am clueless about Kaypro machines * The machines: 4, 4+88, 10, and 1 * Can't get anyone of them to boot. All but the 4+88 boot to a screen, but nothing else. I have a K1 CP/M disk someone from the list sent in 2009, and I tried that in all of them, to no avail. The disk on the 1, at least, seems to work, as it knows when I put in a non OS disk, and tells me, but nothing else. If it had a read error, would it not tell me? It does move the head and such when I insert the OS disk, so it appears to be reading it. Still, it never drops to a prompt. * Looking for parts. The 4 needs ESC and 7, the 10 needs 'right arrow', both the 10 and 4+88 need the little telephone jack in the KB. 10 needs a new fan, it's getting power, but no spinning. 4+88 needs fuse holder, and 4 needs reset switch. Missing a small screw on the KB catch as well. Before I start trolling eBay for a donor Kaypro, I thought I would ask around here. * The 4+88 needs major help. drives don't respond, screen does not come up, nothing looks alive. I'd ship it to someone who wanted to take a look at it, as it'll take me a year to start going through it. Or, maybe I should put the 4-84's guts into it (keeping the 8088 and extra RAM) and use the rest of the 4-84' for parts? All except the 4+88 are in good cosmetic shape. The outer top shell of the 88 is in rough shape, though the KB is in great shape save the RJ14 jack (or whatever they are called) My regret is that I should have tested the system disk I previously received as soon as I got it in the mail, but we moved shortly after receiving it, and have not had the items out of storage since 2009. So, the disk could have been mishandled by me or the movers in the interim.Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 02:52:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 08:52:00 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> References: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DD5DB0.4010706@gmail.com> On 28/12/2012 06:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Since we're discussing STs, does anyone have a spare ST mouse kicking > around? I'd like to re-wire one for use on my AT&T 6300. > > --Chuck > Getting a good one is getting hard(er). Folks often use an Eiffel board, which allows both the Atari Keyboard and Mouse to be replaced, or a simpler PIC based adaptor which allows a normal PC mouse to be plugged into an Atari. If its just a matter of re-wiring then could you use one of these adaptors to put a PC mouse on the 6300? By the way, on the Atari ST thread there are several good emulators about but its not the same as a real ST. As for the ColdFire it has issues with much Atari software as some instructions just aren't compatible. The big problem with Atari clones (And all the machines that don't use an 8mhz 68000 chip, so TT & Falcon) is that many games won't work on them and for many Games were the whole reason for using an ST. In fact there are games that won't run on the STe ... Dave From pye at mactec.com.au Fri Dec 28 02:59:28 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:59:28 +1000 Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50DCF57E.90802@jwsss.com> References: <1356561240.77186.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226165353.G96558@shell.lmi.net> <6D59B3C0-A3D4-4A23-A617-35DE043B806B@mactec.com.au> <50DCF57E.90802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 28/12/2012, at 11:27 AM, jim s wrote: > > On 12/26/2012 6:10 PM, Chris Pye wrote: >> >> I have an IBM JX (in Australia).. Nicely built machine, but rather useless. >> Of the few I have seen (including mine) they all look like they have never been used, probably because there isn't a great deal of software they can run. Surprisingly the infra red keyboard actually works ok. >> >> Chris >> >> > I'm curious if it is built in Australia, or if it is an oddball Korean PC. While working @ Ultimate many years ago, someone wanted a Hangul terminal, and when it showed up it was a really odd unit with 3 1/2 inch side by side floppy drives. I had at the time been using Dos enough that I could guess what most messages were even though they were in Hangul. > > It hooked up via both serial and 3270 interfaces. Wish I could have snagged it, but it was sent off somewhere in the US for other vendors to work on it, and probably scrapped there, as there was little chance of it going back to Korea. > > Jim On the system I have, it says on the labels for both the system unit and the monitor that they were made in Tokyo by IBM Japan. The machine was certainly sold there, so maybe they thought that Japan was their main market for this machine? They certainly were beaten at that game. Chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 28 09:18:08 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:18:08 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> References: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:53 PM -0800 12/27/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Since we're discussing STs, does anyone have a spare ST mouse >kicking around? I'd like to re-wire one for use on my AT&T 6300. > >--Chuck A long time ago (circa 1998) it was possible to buy a mouse that you could use on either the Amiga or the Atari. You might look for 3rd party Amiga and Atari mice. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 28 09:44:30 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:44:30 -0600 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003001cde512$39ea2270$adbe6750$@com> Are you looking for a 9-pin or a 25-pin serial mouse? We have both. Some are new, some used. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 9:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: Subject: Re: buying an Atari ST At 10:53 PM -0800 12/27/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Since we're discussing STs, does anyone have a spare ST mouse kicking >around? I'd like to re-wire one for use on my AT&T 6300. > >--Chuck A long time ago (circa 1998) it was possible to buy a mouse that you could use on either the Amiga or the Atari. You might look for 3rd party Amiga and Atari mice. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5991 - Release Date: 12/27/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5991 - Release Date: 12/27/12 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 11:00:12 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:00:12 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> Message-ID: <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/12 9:42 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> If you are going to read old floppies, find a Shugart 851 and a Adaptec AHA-1522 ISA host >> adapter, and/or a PCI Catweasel if you need to image esoteric formats. > > Why specifically the AHA1522, Al? > > from a few messages back in the thread > What Al means is a controller with a DP8473 FDC in it. The SCSI part doesn't matter. But the 8473 handles FM quite nicely I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was using a Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the address mark on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I switched to the AHA-1522 with a 8473A. I'll double-check that there really was a problem with S36 disks and non-A 8473's.. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 11:06:51 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:06:51 -0800 Subject: Yet another WD-40 Thread (was Re: Fans for a PDP-9?) In-Reply-To: References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50DDD1AB.6090705@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/12 10:55 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > WD40 will bring back a dried out ribbon at least for a while. > from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40 WD-40's formula is a trade secret. The product is not patented, to avoid completely disclosing its ingredients.[3][6] WD-40's main ingredients, according to U.S. Material Safety Data Sheet information, are: 51% Stoddard solvent (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit) 25% liquefied petroleum gas (presumably as a propellant; carbon dioxide is now used instead to reduce WD-40's considerable flammability) 15+% mineral oil (light lubricating oil) 10-% inert ingredients The German version of the mandatory EU safety sheet lists the following safety-relevant ingredients: 60?80% heavy naphtha (petroleum product), hydrogen treated 1?5% carbon dioxide The naptha is what makes it work like goo-gone. Then you have to deal with cleaning off the mineral oil. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 11:09:14 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:09:14 -0800 Subject: System/36 manuals Message-ID: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> I've been working on getting my S36 maint drawing set uploaded, and realized that I don't have very many manuals for the system. Does anyone have any that they'd be willing to have scanned? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 11:24:34 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:24:34 -0200 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Why specifically the AHA1522, Al? > from a few messages back in the thread Sorry :oO I should have read more <:o( Dumb hat for me :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 12:00:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:00:37 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <003001cde512$39ea2270$adbe6750$@com> References: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> <003001cde512$39ea2270$adbe6750$@com> Message-ID: <50DDDE45.1050807@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 07:44 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Are you looking for a 9-pin or a 25-pin serial mouse? We have both. > Some are new, some used. Neither, Cindy. I've got plenty of PC serial mice. What I'm looking for is a "brain dead" mouse with the button and encoder outputs realized at the plug. PC mice (save for the old bus mice) all have active components contained within the mice. Atari ST mice are essentially "brain dead" which is what you want for the AT&T PC6300. --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 28 12:06:40 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 12:06:40 -0600 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DDDE45.1050807@sydex.com> References: <50DD41CF.6000902@sydex.com> <003001cde512$39ea2270$adbe6750$@com> <50DDDE45.1050807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <005001cde526$16686230$43392690$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: buying an Atari ST On 12/28/2012 07:44 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Are you looking for a 9-pin or a 25-pin serial mouse? We have both. > Some are new, some used. Neither, Cindy. I've got plenty of PC serial mice. What I'm looking for is a "brain dead" mouse with the button and encoder outputs realized at the plug. PC mice (save for the old bus mice) all have active components contained within the mice. Atari ST mice are essentially "brain dead" which is what you want for the AT&T PC6300. --Chuck Learn something new every day! We do have a few bus mice, but I am holding onto them right now to test the bus cards we have here. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5991 - Release Date: 12/27/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5991 - Release Date: 12/27/12 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 28 12:36:29 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: My IBM 5150 on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50DD19AA.3010401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1356561734.49078.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356651468.53339.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121227185653.Y20159@shell.lmi.net> <50DD19AA.3010401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, ben wrote: > On 12/27/2012 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> holy crap somebody search this guy's house for weapons. He is one nasty >>> individual! >> >> Why? >> The penalties are probably no more sever than for the RoHS violations. >> >> Besides, what need for firearms if one has molten lead and an F15? > > Aviation fuel does make life easier though. > That gives me a good idea! I could feed what's left to a F100-PW-F220 and call it a "Derp Ingestion Test". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 28 12:59:39 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:59:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro help In-Reply-To: <50DD507C.9010700@jbrain.com> References: <50DD507C.9010700@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > It appears I am clueless about Kaypro machines > > * The machines: 4, 4+88, 10, and 1 > * Can't get anyone of them to boot. All but the 4+88 boot to a Jim, boot disks for all four of those are in Don's disk archive. If you don't have a way to make disks from them (AFAIR, they're TeleDisk images), I'd be happy to make a set for you and send them your way. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 28 13:53:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:53:14 -0500 Subject: System/36 manuals In-Reply-To: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> References: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50DDF8AA.8080609@neurotica.com> On 12/28/2012 12:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I've been working on getting my S36 maint drawing set uploaded, and > realized > that I don't have very many manuals for the system. Does anyone have any > that > they'd be willing to have scanned? I have lots of S/36 manuals. It will be awhile before I can unearth them, but when I do, I can likely provide them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Fri Dec 28 14:09:50 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:09:50 -0600 Subject: Immediate need for Linux System Admin Message-ID: <008a01cde537$4afeffc0$e0fcff40$@com> I have an immediate need for a Linux sys admin, to maintain our 2 in-house servers running Magento and OpenERP. Need someone in the US, please. Linux will be pre-installed, as will SSH. Also need a small amount of PHP coding to fix a few problems with what we already have. One server is for the web server, the other is for the databases. Must have experience doing this, know how to set IP addresses, etc. Must also be familiar with Magento (mySQL) and OpenERP, which runs from Postgres. If you feel qualified, and can be available this weekend, please email me your qualifications and salary requests. The servers are as follows: Brand: DELL Model: PowerEdge 1900 Processor(s): Dual Intel Quad Core 5335 2.0GHz RAM: 16GB DDR-2 5300 FULLY BUFFERED 8 SLOTS FULL Hard drive(s): 3X500GB SATA (RAID5) Optical drive: Combo Drive Operating System: None Power: 800 WATT Form Factor: Tower Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5991 - Release Date: 12/27/12 From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Dec 28 14:39:14 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 12:39:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356727154.45800.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > At 10:53 PM -0800 12/27/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>??Since we're discussing STs, does anyone have a spare ST mouse kicking > around?? I'd like to re-wire one for use on my AT&T 6300. >> >>??--Chuck > > A long time ago (circa 1998) it was possible to buy a mouse that you could use > on either the Amiga or the Atari.? You might look for 3rd party Amiga and Atari > mice. now days it easy to use a modern mouse with an adapter like Micromys V4 Mouse Adapter or Cocolino ps/2 mouse adapter > > Zane > From d235j.1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 14:57:23 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:57:23 -0500 Subject: PALCE and PEEL programming algorithms Message-ID: Hi all, After a ton of digging, I found information about PALCE programming in what looks like a senior project to build a PLD programmer. Unfortunately it's completely in Indonesian, but fortunately it's easy enough to figure out what they're doing and Google Translate. In case anyone is interested, here you go: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/g1r5bgg6ae1nank/PLD%20programming.zip The original source was here: http://dewey.petra.ac.id/jiunkpe_dg_16353.html Annoyingly the redirect you to a viewer that supplies compressed jpegs unless they detect googlebot (I think they do this by IP). Fortunately google caches the PDFs. On a similar note, does anyone have the PEEL programming algorithms? ICT used to have them available here: http://web.archive.org/web/20020827040802/http://ictpld.com/programverify/index.htm However ICT is long gone. I am missing most of those files. The ones I have can be downloaded here: https:/dl.dropbox.com/s/h93l0cyta4l67ky/PEEL%20programming%20specs%20partial.zip?dl=1 Thanks! --David From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 15:26:17 2012 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:26:17 -0700 Subject: more shameless parts trafficking DEC LA12 Correspondent. Message-ID: Clearing out more stuff. Goes on Ebay tonite at 7:00pm 251205551653 Apollo series 400 $49 251205617681 Pdp11/73 & MV2 boards $399 251205572249 Pdp 11/04 Unibus prog console $399 251205610973 DEC DecWriter Correspondent LA12 $199 251205547379 DEC BA23 cabinet shelfs/brackets $39.00 251205601864 Dual 8" floppy system w/unibus Ctrler $189.00 251205593426 Apple Mac IIfx w/ethernet card $99.00 251205606245 DEC VT100 $149.00 251205602838 DEC TU58 tape drive &2 tapes $99.00 Tom P. (tcp1022) From doc at vaxen.net Fri Dec 28 15:27:56 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:27:56 -0600 Subject: Kaypro help In-Reply-To: References: <50DD507C.9010700@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <50DE0EDC.8010909@vaxen.net> On 12/28/12 12:59 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 28 Dec 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > >> It appears I am clueless about Kaypro machines >> >> * The machines: 4, 4+88, 10, and 1 >> * Can't get anyone of them to boot. All but the 4+88 boot to a > > Jim, boot disks for all four of those are in Don's disk archive. If you > don't have a way to make disks from them (AFAIR, they're TeleDisk > images), I'd be happy to make a set for you and send them your way. Now THAT is a post to make a man smile. Thanks one more time to Al K and everyone whose patience & perseverance made it possible. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 15:41:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 13:41:45 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <1356727154.45800.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356727154.45800.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DE1219.7040509@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 12:39 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > Cocolino ps/2 Because of the limited use of the 6300 keyboard mouse, it's not worth a lot of work to get there--and the 6300 mouse is 3-button anyway. I'm probably better off just gutting an old 3-button serial mouse. I've got a few that use segmented wheels with metal contacts (no opto-encoders) that should be adequate to the job. I'd have to wire up a cable adapter for one of those Atari/Amiga adapters. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 28 15:42:58 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:42:58 -0600 Subject: *very rare* NEC APC III on eBay, Wisconsin Rapids, WI In-Reply-To: <1356658820.32490.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com > References: <1356658820.32490.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201212282144.qBSLi7Vn095855@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:40 PM 12/27/2012, you wrote: >no keyboard unfortunately, but I have one, and could help the buyer get it up and running. Extremely rare pseudo compatible. I've never seen one o/w on ebay. Shipping is high, but maybe you can talk about that. I don't see it. Auction number? - John From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 28 15:58:26 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:58:26 -0700 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > WD40 will bring back a dried out ribbon at least for a while. Yes, and gum up the printhead. From g-wright at att.net Fri Dec 28 16:29:09 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:29:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: *very rare* NEC APC III on eBay, Wisconsin Rapids, WI In-Reply-To: <201212282144.qBSLi7Vn095855@billy.ezwind.net> References: <1356658820.32490.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212282144.qBSLi7Vn095855@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1356733749.79676.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: John Foust To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, December 28, 2012 1:47:16 PM Subject: Re: *very rare* NEC APC III on eBay, Wisconsin Rapids, WI At 07:40 PM 12/27/2012, you wrote: >no keyboard unfortunately, but I have one, and could help the buyer get it up >and running. Extremely rare pseudo compatible. I've never seen one o/w on ebay. >Shipping is high, but maybe you can talk about that. I don't see it. Auction number? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try NEC APC 3 -Jerry - John From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 16:58:01 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:58:01 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition Message-ID: Hello everyone! I have a question which to some might seem rather obvious to some, but I cannot find the answer. And guessing by my recent streak of luck I'll probably find the answer to this question after posting the question to the list... Nevermind, back on topic. The question at hand: Can a PMI processor -- in this case a KDJ11-BF -- be put into a non-PMI serpentine QBUS backplane? Or will the magic smoke be released. If the answer is a resounding "no". Any one here have a KDJ11-AC (M8192-YC) they'd be willing to trade for a KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE)? I'm also interested in some other QBUS '11 boards, a -- short -- list follows, in order of precedence: > DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M (M8043) -- or compatible > QBUS (non-PMI) memory -- I'd *LOVE* to get an MSV11-QC (M7551-CA, 4MB), -QB (-BA, 2MB) or -QA (-AA, 1MB) memory board; I'd also be fine with a 256KB MSV11-LK (M8059-K*) board > 22-bit compatible boot ROM board -- e.g. The BDV11 (M8012) revision E. > QBUS SCSI controller -- I'm really gunning for the CMD CQD-220A/TM, though I'm for any form of QBUS SCSI controller that can be both TMSCP tape and MSCP disk controller at the same time > DRV11-J (M8049) -- or compatible > DHV11 (M3104) -- or compatible > LPV11 (M8027 > DELQA (M7516) -- or compatible I would love to get all DEC original boards -- save the SCSI controller, as I would the system to have mostly DEC innards. If any one can tell from that list, I'm setting up a complete PDP-11 system. In this case replacing one. Don't ask what happened to the machine that is being replaced be cause I will go on a twenty minute long rant consisting of nothing but swearing. Many thanks for any help offered! Cheers, Christian G. From wilson at dbit.com Fri Dec 28 17:11:15 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:11:15 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 09:00:12AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >I really did find a problem with the non-A version of the 8473. I was using a >Seagate ST-01 and Imagedisk was having problems recognizing the address mark >on Track 0 of System/36 disks that went away when I switched to the AHA-1522 >with a 8473A. FWIW, I'm gradually working (3 prototype PCBs so far) on an ISA floppy controller card which is basically an improved CompatiCard IV -- so, software compatible with the NEC uPD765 (but actually an XMOS CPU), which is why it needs to be an ISA card, and it can definitely handle 128 b/s and FM or MFM using regular PC FDC software. Hopefully DEC RX02 too, plus there'll be a raw mode that needs a special utility. Obviously it also has a 50-pin connector for 8" drives. If successful, it'll be a D Bit product, but either way the schematics/code are on www.xcore.com as "ISAFLOP" (I need a better name!). The photo there is out of date (Rev B, with bad hardware bugs and too many 34-pin connectors) and the code can read single sectors OK but can't write anything and at least the Compaq BIOS in my test PC doesn't recognize it as an FDC so it's failing whatever the probing test is (so for now I use it as the secondary FDC). But, FDCDEMO.COM can read sectors all day long so a lot *does* work. John Wilson D Bit From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 17:29:52 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:29:52 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> On 12/28/12 3:11 PM, John Wilson wrote: > If successful, it'll be a D Bit product, but either way the schematics/code > are on www.xcore.com as "ISAFLOP" (I need a better name!). http://www.xcore.com/projects/isaflop How sophisticated is the data separator? I assume it takes care of TK43 for 8"? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 28 17:31:42 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:31:42 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> On 12/28/12 3:11 PM, John Wilson wrote: > If successful, it'll be a D Bit product. Please consider a PCI version. There are several people I know looking for that. From radioengr at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 17:51:38 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:51:38 -0700 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> On 12/28/2012 4:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/28/12 3:11 PM, John Wilson wrote: > >> If successful, it'll be a D Bit product. > > Please consider a PCI version. There are several people I know looking > for that. > There used to be chips that would 'bridge' a PCI bus to an ISA bus. If the chips are still available, it wouldn't be huge design change. When PCI was young, they were common. Rob. From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Dec 28 17:57:45 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:57:45 +0000 Subject: System/36 manuals In-Reply-To: <50DDF8AA.8080609@neurotica.com> References: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> <50DDF8AA.8080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1356739065.17678.2.camel@hp0> Dave, This is one set of manuals I know TNMoC archive does have (cause I donated them). Are you looking for something in particular? None have been scanned yet. I might be able to do something by special arrangement though. I'm back in the weekend by the 12th. On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 14:53 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/28/2012 12:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I've been working on getting my S36 maint drawing set uploaded, and > > realized > > that I don't have very many manuals for the system. Does anyone have any > > that > > they'd be willing to have scanned? > > I have lots of S/36 manuals. It will be awhile before I can unearth > them, but when I do, I can likely provide them. > > -Dave > -- -- Colin From wilson at dbit.com Fri Dec 28 18:03:23 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:03:23 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 03:29:52PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >http://www.xcore.com/projects/isaflop > >How sophisticated is the data separator? Not. In the slightest. Instant resync on every passing glitch. Works fine in practice! But I'd love to be educated on how to do better -- a lot of the disks people would read with something like this will be in much worse condition than what I'm testing with. >I assume it takes care of TK43 for 8"? Yes. And the plan is to make a bunch of the select/etc. pins configurable so it can handle radial head load, SA450/RX50 vs. PC differences, etc. (My first two prototypes were just too stupid -- *five* FDD connectors!) >Please consider a PCI version. There are several people I know looking >for that. I'd sure consider it, but the PCI SIG doesn't kid around with their fees! When I talked to them (many years ago when it was slightly cheaper) they wouldn't even guarantee that they wouldn't reallocate your vendor ID if you stopped renewing, although it's hard to see how they could do it w/o causing just as many problems for the new owner. Anyway the bigger problem with PCI (or PCIe) is that it wouldn't be able to reach the ISA DMAC, so there'd be no way (that I know of) to be SW-compatible with all the disk-reading utilities out there. So instead I'm working on a USB version (yes it's been done to death but AFAIK never with a 50-pin interface and you need special SW which may require a specific PC OS). At least the USB-IF lets you buy a VID outright w/o joining. The idea for that will be to make a raw floppy look like a FAT flash drive with a .DSK file on it, so once you set the disk parameters you don't need any utility at all to read/write the disks, just your OS's COPY command. But then again, I'm into emulators so I'm obsessed with making one thing look like another thing so it works with whatever you have already. John Wilson D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 28 18:06:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:06:20 -0500 Subject: System/36 manuals In-Reply-To: <1356739065.17678.2.camel@hp0> References: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> <50DDF8AA.8080609@neurotica.com> <1356739065.17678.2.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <50DE33FC.9070504@neurotica.com> Al is the one looking for them, not me. -Dave On 12/28/2012 06:57 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Dave, > > This is one set of manuals I know TNMoC archive does have (cause I > donated them). Are you looking for something in particular? None have > been scanned yet. I might be able to do something by special > arrangement though. I'm back in the weekend by the 12th. > > On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 14:53 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 12/28/2012 12:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> I've been working on getting my S36 maint drawing set uploaded, and >>> realized >>> that I don't have very many manuals for the system. Does anyone have any >>> that >>> they'd be willing to have scanned? >> >> I have lots of S/36 manuals. It will be awhile before I can unearth >> them, but when I do, I can likely provide them. >> >> -Dave >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wilson at dbit.com Fri Dec 28 18:06:32 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:06:32 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121229000632.GA10887@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 04:51:38PM -0700, Rob Doyle wrote: >There used to be chips that would 'bridge' a PCI bus to an ISA bus. If >the chips are still available, it wouldn't be huge design change. When >PCI was young, they were common. I've got a PLX9050 RDK in my basement, with the hilarious extender-style ISA socket on the top edge of the board -- but it's PIO only. No DMA. I really think it's worth a *lot* of firmware to avoid needing fresh SW written (and maintained) for each PC OS. Windows isn't so bad, but keeping a driver working on Linux is a total nightmare. It's like they think it's *funny* to change the driver interface every few versions. So that's why I'd rather be compatible with the same old thing. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 18:29:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:29:44 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DE3978.9060500@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 04:03 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Not. In the slightest. Instant resync on every passing glitch. > Works fine in practice! But I'd love to be educated on how to do > better -- a lot of the disks people would read with something like > this will be in much worse condition than what I'm testing with. One thing that helps is to implement a bandpass filter on your pulses--just reject everything outside of the pass band. If you can determine the data rate (and hence the average interval between pulses), it appears to work even better. I tried a bunch of PLL software simulations and found that in nearly all cases, the bandpass approach worked better on FM, MFM and MMFM as well as GCR. YM of course MV. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 28 19:05:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:05:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> The NEC 765, and presumably all of the "compatible" alternatives do a "reset" on seeing the index pulse. That makes many "crowded" formats, such as Cromemco, TRS80, etc. difficult to read on PC. If feasible, PLEASE consider having that overrideable in software, so that it is possible to read immediately after the index. WD 179X has a "track read" command. NEC does not. "read multiple sectors" is nice, but it doesn't let you see intersector gaps, address marks, and MFM without "IBM/WD" sector headers. Is it feasible to implement? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wilson at dbit.com Fri Dec 28 19:28:56 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:28:56 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE3978.9060500@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE3978.9060500@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121229012856.GA11767@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 04:29:44PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >One thing that helps is to implement a bandpass filter on your >pulses--just reject everything outside of the pass band. If you can >determine the data rate (and hence the average interval between >pulses), it appears to work even better. Is this as simple as ignoring any pulse that arrives much too soon or much too late? Or do you have to get cute and drop anything that isn't within N nsec of one of the 2 or 3 expected pulse durations? Or is there Actual Math involved and this will require ... ugh ... LEARNING? Thanks! John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 19:37:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:37:28 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The NEC 765, and presumably all of the "compatible" alternatives do a > "reset" on seeing the index pulse. That makes many "crowded" formats, > such as Cromemco, TRS80, etc. difficult to read on PC. > > If feasible, PLEASE consider having that overrideable in software, so that > it is possible to read immediately after the index. > > WD 179X has a "track read" command. > NEC does not. "read multiple sectors" is nice, but it doesn't let you see > intersector gaps, address marks, and MFM without "IBM/WD" sector headers. > Is it feasible to implement? Yes, it's annoying to be working with a WD17xx-created format without the IAM and have a 765-type FDC "go blind" during the "PLL sync" period. There was a NEC uPD7265 that omitted the IAM for so-called "Sony Mode" recording, but those are exceedingly rare. NEC has sort of a "Read Track - read multiple sectors without looking at the IDAM" command; it starts after the index and reads subsequent sectors starting at each DAM. You can have an unreadable IDAM and still recover the sector data if the DAM is readable. You also can feed the 765 a "Read Track" with a phony datalength specified. The 765 will suck up all of the data after the first DAM after the index until the transfer count is exhausted. Thus, you get gaps, AMs, headers, all "in the raw", meaning that the 765 does not resync during the transfer. Great if you're using original floppies made using a Formaster that writes an entire track in one swell foop, not so much for tracks where the sectors are written individually. The WD17xx and 27xx type controllers, OTOH, resync at every address mark during a "Read Track". Harvard Presentation Graphics used this technique to read their "HGC" stashed in the gap bytes between sectors. Also, consider implementing some of the 82078 added commands, particularly "Format and Write" (can make copying go very fast) as well as the PM functions. Personally, I'd do the board as a USB card, given the difficulty of finding ISA-equipped motherboards or dealing with the nuances of PCI/PCIE, etc. You should also be aware that Andrew has been testing prototypes of an ISA FDC that can use either the I82077AA, PC8477 or DP8473 chips. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 28 19:44:45 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:44:45 -0800 Subject: Kaypro help In-Reply-To: <50DD507C.9010700@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 12/27/12 11:55 PM, "Jim Brain" wrote: > It appears I am clueless about Kaypro machines > > * The machines: 4, 4+88, 10, and 1 > * Can't get anyone of them to boot. All but the 4+88 boot to a > screen, but nothing else. I have a K1 CP/M disk someone from the > list sent in 2009, and I tried that in all of them, to no avail. > The disk on the 1, at least, seems to work, as it knows when I put > in a non OS disk, and tells me, but nothing else. If it had a read > error, would it not tell me? It does move the head and such when I > insert the OS disk, so it appears to be reading it. Still, it never > drops to a prompt. > > My regret is that I should have tested the system disk I previously > received as soon as I got it in the mail, but we moved shortly after > receiving it, and have not had the items out of storage since 2009. So, > the disk could have been mishandled by me or the movers in the interim.Jim Go to Dave's old computers :) http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Dave dunfield has kaypro system disks that you can download and write out using a PC and floppy drive using imagedisk The 10 should boot up off the HDD IIRC. It needs parked before powering off. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 28 19:46:08 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:46:08 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DDDE45.1050807@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/28/12 10:00 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/28/2012 07:44 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> Are you looking for a 9-pin or a 25-pin serial mouse? We have both. >> Some are new, some used. > > Neither, Cindy. I've got plenty of PC serial mice. What I'm looking > for is a "brain dead" mouse with the button and encoder outputs > realized at the plug. PC mice (save for the old bus mice) all have > active components contained within the mice. Atari ST mice are > essentially "brain dead" which is what you want for the AT&T PC6300. > > --Chuck Aren't they called 'quadrature' mice or something like that? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 20:08:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:08:06 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121229012856.GA11767@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE3978.9060500@sydex.com> <20121229012856.GA11767@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DE5086.6040601@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 05:28 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Is this as simple as ignoring any pulse that arrives much too soon or much too > late? Or do you have to get cute and drop anything that isn't within N nsec > of one of the 2 or 3 expected pulse durations? Or is there Actual Math > involved and this will require ... ugh ... LEARNING? Nope, nothing really wonderful--just slots in a temporal wall. If a pulse falls through the slot, you use it; if it hits the wall, you reject it. It's been far more effective than I anticipated after using all sorts of far more complicated algorithms. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 20:10:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:10:24 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 05:46 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Aren't they called 'quadrature' mice or something like that? Exactly. each has two outputs, spaced slightly out of phase with each other. By detecting edges, you can determine direction. Think "rotary encoders" used in place of pots nowadays for simulated analog controls. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Dec 28 20:12:02 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:12:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kaypro help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/27/12 11:55 PM, "Jim Brain" wrote: > It appears I am clueless about Kaypro machines > > * The machines: 4, 4+88, 10, and 1 > * Can't get anyone of them to boot. All but the 4+88 boot to a > screen, but nothing else. I have a K1 CP/M disk someone from the > list sent in 2009, and I tried that in all of them, to no avail. > The disk on the 1, at least, seems to work, as it knows when I put > in a non OS disk, and tells me, but nothing else. If it had a read > error, would it not tell me? It does move the head and such when I > insert the OS disk, so it appears to be reading it. Still, it never > drops to a prompt. Your Kaypro 1 probably has the Universal ROM, in which case it needs CP/M 2.2U1. There's a good working image (one of mine) on Dave Dunfield's site. There's a CP/M ROM and version compatibility chart on 4-1 of the technical manual: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/kaypro/1484-E_KayproTechnicalManual_Ch1-15_Jun85.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wilson at dbit.com Fri Dec 28 20:30:21 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:30:21 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121229023021.GA12231@dbit.dbit.com> On 12/28/2012 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >The NEC 765, and presumably all of the "compatible" alternatives do a >"reset" on seeing the index pulse. That makes many "crowded" formats, >such as Cromemco, TRS80, etc. difficult to read on PC. > >If feasible, PLEASE consider having that overrideable in software, so that >it is possible to read immediately after the index. Eww! I don't even understand why they would purposely do that. The PLL either needs a handout or it doesn't. At the moment, my code ignores index pulses other than to count them so it knows when to give up (even that bothers me -- I'd rather use a timer than have the FDC totally wedge up just because the disk's in backwards or whatever). My only plan for using index pulses was for the "format" cmd. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 05:37:28PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >NEC has sort of a "Read Track - read multiple sectors without looking >at the IDAM" command; it starts after the index and reads subsequent >sectors starting at each DAM. You can have an unreadable IDAM and >still recover the sector data if the DAM is readable. Other than data recovery, I never got how that's useful. I'm never so desperate for data that I don't care which sector it came from! Although, the very weird SCAN commands show that they imagined just such a use. >You also can feed the 765 a "Read Track" with a phony datalength >specified. The 765 will suck up all of the data after the first DAM >after the index until the transfer count is exhausted. Thus, you get >gaps, AMs, headers, all "in the raw", meaning that the 765 does not >resync during the transfer. Where was I for this?!?! That sounds very very useful, almost. What value constitutes "phony"? >Also, consider implementing some of the 82078 added commands, >particularly "Format and Write" (can make copying go very fast) as >well as the PM functions. Very nice! I hadn't noticed that one (I've been using the PC8477B data sheet since that was the chip I used in Rev A). >Personally, I'd do the board as a USB card, given the difficulty of >finding ISA-equipped motherboards or dealing with the nuances of >PCI/PCIE, etc. Absolutely. I'm working on that right now (so I'll have a PCB already whenever XMOS finally releases the XS1-SU01A to mere mortals, which is supposedly imminent). I just like to be compatible with everything. There's plenty of software that wants a uPD765, especially if it's for booting. I never got the point of the PCI Catweasels -- they aren't compatible with anything (not even each other, or ISA Catweasels) AND they use expensive hardware to use up a slot whose bandwidth they don't even need. But then again, at least the cabling stays out of the way. >You should also be aware that Andrew has been testing prototypes of >an ISA FDC that can use either the I82077AA, PC8477 or DP8473 chips. Nice! Well I've got a tube of PC8477Bs that I bought when they were EOLed that I'm not going to be using after all... John Wilson D Bit From a.de.gelder at hccnet.nl Fri Dec 28 08:48:28 2012 From: a.de.gelder at hccnet.nl (Arnold de Gelder) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:48:28 +0100 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: On 24 Dec 2012 20:39:59 Chuck wrote: >It's interesting that you managed to install >an MDA with the "built in" adapter; >maybe there's still some life in my >old Herc Plus card. I have never succeeded to start up with a Hercules card (or clone) installed. In any case the memory overlaps that of the Indigeneous card, what would cause display problems if start up would be succeeded. As memory serves me well there is a Hercules clone that can emulate an MDA card, but I never had one. On 24 Dec 2012 20:39:59 Chuck wrote: >Does the two-monitor setup work for all revisions of the BIOS? Does it >work if you have the EDA card also installed? I think it does, but my M24's have the 1.43 ROM version, so I cannot check it. Mmm, I don't know an EDA card, sorry. Greetings, H. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 28 16:12:16 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:12:16 -0800 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50DE1940.4000108@jwsss.com> On 12/28/2012 1:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> WD40 will bring back a dried out ribbon at least for a while. > > Yes, and gum up the printhead. > > Or, run a single ribbon on a TTY for 3 1/2 years (no budget) till you could see it was almost white. I think the last few weeks it was mostly printing oil on the paper. maybe 3-in-1 in there too. when the ASR33 was rebuilt 1/2 pint of oil was recovered from the felt in the bottom (just to see how much was still there). Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 28 20:56:12 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:56:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> References: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Aren't they called 'quadrature' mice or something like that? > Exactly. each has two outputs, spaced slightly out of phase with > each other. More than slightly. Most versions ideally place them 90 degrees out of phase with one another. This has two advantages: (1) it maximizes the minimum time between seeing one edge and seeing the next, and (2) if you count all four edges per cycle instead of two or one, using 90 degrees of phase shift gets you more regular counting. (1) is admittedly not very relevant if you're using a real mouse and even vaguely modern electronics, since on even a high-res mouse edges are very far apart on digital logic timescales. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wheagy at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 21:01:50 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 22:01:50 -0500 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III Message-ID: Mike, I read the relevant chapters and have a bit better understanding of the Apple III...I think. I tried making an SOS disk today using my Apple IIe and the CFFA3000 with some Apple III dsk images i found online. I used ProDOS and was able to format the floppy and it appeared to copy the image onto the floppy. At least it said it was successful, but when I tried booting the III with it, the drive spun for about 3 seconds and then stopped and nothing else happened...nothing on the display. Should it work to copy a floppy like this using ProDOS on a IIe for use on a III? Is there another utility that would be better suited to copy the disk? Thanks, Win Unlike the II, which is relatively easy to configure to boot to any (bootable) storage device in nearly any slot, the Apple III tries to boot only from the internal floppy drive, and as Eric pointed out, you'd have to roll your own ROM to change that behavior. The CFFA3000 works nicely in the III, but you lose the Drive ][ emulation capability and you can't boot directly to it. In the Apple III, everything is seen as a device and requires a driver that SOS loads as it boots in order to be accessible to the system during operation. You can't (easily) boot directly to the CFFA because SOS requires a driver to be able to recognize it. Fortunately, SOS is close enough to ProDOS that you can use the CFFA in an Apple II to create floppies from the images you downloaded. I'd suggest reading this PDF for more on how the III works: http;//apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf It's the Osborne McGraw Hill Guide To Your Apply III. Pay special attention to Chapters 3 and 4. LMK if you have any questions about all this. - Mike From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 28 21:21:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 22:21:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201212290321.WAA03893@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Not that it makes much difference to me personally, but when I see a problem I can hardly help thinking about possible ways to solve it. >> Please consider a PCI version. There are several people I know >> looking for that. > I'd sure consider it, but [...borderline-extortionate expense...] Might you be able to get around that by requiring the end user to set the vendor and device ID? Anything from a bank of switches to a serial port on the side could be used for the purpose. I can think of plenty of possible reasons not to, but it might be worth at least thinking about. > Anyway the bigger problem with PCI (or PCIe) is that it wouldn't be > able to reach the ISA DMAC, so there'd be no way (that I know of) to > be SW-compatible with all the disk-reading utilities out there. ...and which expect to talk directly to ISA hardware? True. But I'm sure there are people - a substantial fraction of this list, to start with - for whom a documented PCI interface is plenty good enough. > So instead I'm working on a USB version (yes it's been done to death > but AFAIK never with a 50-pin interface and you need special SW which > may require a specific PC OS). If you're willing to require special SW, it seems to me your "bigger problem with PCI" just evaporated. What am I missing? > But then again, I'm into emulators so I'm obsessed with making one > thing look like another thing so it works with whatever you have > already. Then a PCI card would be fine, since the emulator can trap the ISA access and map it into the corresponding PCI access, no? You might even put a PCI-ISA bridge on there so it looks like an ISA bus. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 21:59:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:59:42 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121229023021.GA12231@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229023021.GA12231@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DE6AAE.80408@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 06:30 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Eww! I don't even understand why they would purposely do that. The PLL > either needs a handout or it doesn't. At the moment, my code ignores index > pulses other than to count them so it knows when to give up (even that > bothers me -- I'd rather use a timer than have the FDC totally wedge up > just because the disk's in backwards or whatever). My only plan for using > index pulses was for the "format" cmd. The original 8272/765 non-A parts were worse--the darned FDC was blind for a full millisecond after the index. This created problems with reading some 9 sector media on very early IBM 5150s. > Other than data recovery, I never got how that's useful. I'm never so > desperate for data that I don't care which sector it came from! Although, > the very weird SCAN commands show that they imagined just such a use. I've never run into a program that actually used the SCAN commands. They'd be the first thing that I'd throw overboard. >> You also can feed the 765 a "Read Track" with a phony datalength >> specified. The 765 will suck up all of the data after the first DAM >> after the index until the transfer count is exhausted. Thus, you get >> gaps, AMs, headers, all "in the raw", meaning that the 765 does not >> resync during the transfer. > > Where was I for this?!?! That sounds very very useful, almost. What value > constitutes "phony"? Well, since a "306K" floppy has 6250 "raw" bytes per track, try issuing a "Read Track" with a sector length of 8192 bytes for just a single sector. Note that if you format a track substituting very large sector sizes (say, 8192 bytes) in the headers, then write one of them, the write will wrap around the index and "eat its tail", leaving a track with no address marks. Very useful for faking a blank track. >> Also, consider implementing some of the 82078 added commands, >> particularly "Format and Write" (can make copying go very fast) as >> well as the PM functions. > > Very nice! I hadn't noticed that one (I've been using the PC8477B data sheet > since that was the chip I used in Rev A). > >> Personally, I'd do the board as a USB card, given the difficulty of >> finding ISA-equipped motherboards or dealing with the nuances of >> PCI/PCIE, etc. > > Absolutely. I'm working on that right now (so I'll have a PCB already > whenever XMOS finally releases the XS1-SU01A to mere mortals, which is > supposedly imminent). I just like to be compatible with everything. > There's plenty of software that wants a uPD765, especially if it's for > booting. I never got the point of the PCI Catweasels -- they aren't > compatible with anything (not even each other, or ISA Catweasels) AND they > use expensive hardware to use up a slot whose bandwidth they don't even > need. But then again, at least the cabling stays out of the way. Most systems made after about 2004 or so have an option to boot from a USB floppy, so emulating that for starters would be an option. Even running DOS 6.22 with a USB floppy still allows for read/writing and formatting--the more esoteric operations, of course, aren't there. As far as the Catweasel, I use both the ISA and PCI variety--and my code works with both--it's just a matter of figuring out which you have and setting up some tables. THe CW is useful for a lot of oddball formats. Right now, I've got a batch of hard-sectored floppies to retrieve data from that were written using a Zilog MCZ. Care for 132-byte sectors? But then, I can emulate a Catweasel just fine--and get a USB interface using just about any modern MCU. I prefer the PIC32 chips but an ARM would do just fine also. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 22:02:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:02:21 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DE6B4D.1030206@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 06:48 AM, Arnold de Gelder wrote: > I think it does, but my M24's have the 1.43 ROM version, so I cannot check it. > Mmm, I don't know an EDA card, sorry. Maybe I've got the name wrong--perhaps it was called the EDB--it was a display enhancement board added to the M24 and attached to the standard controller that provided 16 colors per pixel (IIRC) in 640x400 hi-res mode. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 22:08:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:08:00 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 06:56 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Aren't they called 'quadrature' mice or something like that? >> Exactly. each has two outputs, spaced slightly out of phase with >> each other. > > More than slightly. Most versions ideally place them 90 degrees out of > phase with one another. This has two advantages: (1) it maximizes the > minimum time between seeing one edge and seeing the next, and (2) if > you count all four edges per cycle instead of two or one, using 90 > degrees of phase shift gets you more regular counting. > > (1) is admittedly not very relevant if you're using a real mouse and > even vaguely modern electronics, since on even a high-res mouse edges > are very far apart on digital logic timescales. Did you catch the ID in EDN about 6 months ago for a circuit using a single 4538 on a rotary encoder that provides pulses on either of two lines depending on direction? I thought it was very clever--much better than the usual flip-flop decoder. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 28 22:32:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:32:19 -0500 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> References: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DE7253.3050804@neurotica.com> On 12/28/2012 11:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did you catch the ID in EDN about 6 months ago for a circuit using a > single 4538 on a rotary encoder that provides pulses on either of two > lines depending on direction? I thought it was very clever--much better > than the usual flip-flop decoder. Did you mean a "DI"? What issue was that in? That sounds like a great hack. The trick I always use, which assumes use with a microcontroller, is to interrupt with one line and check the state of the other line in the ISR. That works nicely. But pulses on one or the other of two lines would make a really nice drive mechanism for tap-up/tap-down-interface digipots. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 28 23:31:17 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:31:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> References: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201212290531.AAA04581@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Most versions ideally place them 90 degrees out of phase with one >> another. This has two advantages: [...] >> (1) is admittedly not very relevant if you're using a real mouse and >> even vaguely modern electronics, since on even a high-res mouse >> edges are very far apart on digital logic timescales. > Did you catch the ID in EDN about 6 months ago No. What's EDN? It doesn't look like an obvious acronym to me offhand. But, in any case, it's unlikely to be anything I follow. > for a circuit using a single 4538 on a rotary encoder that provides > pulses on either of two lines depending on direction? Well, when I built my Tempest setup, I used two 74123s (or similar, such as 74LS123 or some such - I don't recall). You can find a GIF of the schematic for what I built in ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/quadrature-counter.gif. Chip numbers are 74xx-series numbers, choice driven largely by what I happened to have on hand at the time. The pin numbers at the bottom edge are a DB25 interface to connect it to a dumb peecee parallel port. > I thought it was very clever--much better than the usual flip-flop > decoder. However, it does depend on the count edges not occurring too close together (faster than the one-shots can generate pulses), which is where my (1) is relevant. I spent a while thinking about other alternatives and was unable to come up with anything better that would count every edge (which was important in my application, since the rotary shaft encoder I used had 128 cycles per rotation and I needed to use all 512 countable edges or it wasn't as sensitive as I wanted). It should be possible to instead use each signal as clock with the other as enable, with various combinations of inverters, driving edge-triggered counters. That avoids the one-shots, but requires four different counters, which pushed it into impracticality for my purposes ("buildable with the chips at hand" was pretty close to a sine qua non at the time, and I was lacking either '161s or '83s, I forget which). Using dual-clock up/down counters instead would have fixed this, but I'm pretty sure I didn't have (enough of) those on hand either. It might be possible to use direction-and-clock up/down counters; I'd have to think about it. I don't recall whether I didn't have them, decided I couldn't do it, or just didn't think of it then. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 28 23:31:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:31:28 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DE7253.3050804@neurotica.com> References: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> <50DE7253.3050804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50DE8030.9050307@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 08:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Did you mean a "DI"? What issue was that in? That sounds like a > great hack. > > The trick I always use, which assumes use with a microcontroller, is > to interrupt with one line and check the state of the other line in the > ISR. That works nicely. But pulses on one or the other of two lines > would make a really nice drive mechanism for tap-up/tap-down-interface > digipots. It was ED, not EDN (whoops), but here's the article: http://tinyurl.com/ckznjw7 I love those things--like the one that allows you to drive a chain of LEDs with only a single I/O on an MCU. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Sat Dec 29 00:27:57 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 01:27:57 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <201212290321.WAA03893@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <201212290321.WAA03893@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121229062757.GA14117@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:21:43PM -0500, Mouse wrote: >Not that it makes much difference to me personally, but when I see a >problem I can hardly help thinking about possible ways to solve it. Sounds like good nerding! :-) >Might you be able to get around that by requiring the end user to set >the vendor and device ID? Anything from a bank of switches to a serial >port on the side could be used for the purpose. Interesting... This is nicely evil! >But I'm >sure there are people - a substantial fraction of this list, to start >with - for whom a documented PCI interface is plenty good enough. *Documented* is certainly the way to go. In that case it would help if the interface were a lot easier than the uPD765 (which is needlessly unpleasant to program). >If you're willing to require special SW, it seems to me your "bigger >problem with PCI" just evaporated. What am I missing? I'm thinking mainly of percentages. I'd like something which 90% of users can use with existing drivers, and only have things get ugly 10% of the time. >> But then again, I'm into emulators so I'm obsessed with making one >> thing look like another thing so it works with whatever you have >> already. > >Then a PCI card would be fine, since the emulator can trap the ISA >access and map it into the corresponding PCI access, no? Yeah I was talking blearily... I didn't mean that the FDC will be for use under emulation (although of course I'll use it that way), but that since what I do all day is emulation anyway I like cases where the new thing works just like the old thing, only better, unless there's a good reason for it not to. So I'd rather make a new ISA FDC that works like old ISA FDCs, and a new USB FDC that works like any USB drive, rather than a new thing that doesn't work like anything and only talks to the one utility program that knows about it. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.com Sat Dec 29 00:55:59 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 01:55:59 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <50DE6AAE.80408@sydex.com> References: <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229023021.GA12231@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE6AAE.80408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121229065559.GB14117@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 07:59:42PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I've never run into a program that actually used the SCAN commands. >They'd be the first thing that I'd throw overboard. I was kind of thinking that. I'm inclined to do them just for completeness, but how will I know if I've succeeded if there's no code that uses them? Whatever tests I write myself will only verify the parts I understand... >Well, since a "306K" floppy has 6250 "raw" bytes per track, try >issuing a "Read Track" with a sector length of 8192 bytes for just a >single sector. Now I'm with you. Cute!!! >Note that if you format a track substituting very large sector sizes >(say, 8192 bytes) in the headers, then write one of them, the write >will wrap around the index and "eat its tail", leaving a track with >no address marks. Very useful for faking a blank track. Also cute! And also easy to emulate -- it'd be hard not to. >Most systems made after about 2004 or so have an option to boot from >a USB floppy, so emulating that for starters would be an option. >Even running DOS 6.22 with a USB floppy still allows for read/writing >and formatting--the more esoteric operations, of course, aren't >there. Yeah I was thinking about that as one option. So it's just a raw disk for this case, and then there's some way to switch it to being a .DSK file inside a flash drive, for when you're reading a stack of old disks into image files. >As far as the Catweasel, I use both the ISA and PCI variety--and my >code works with both--it's just a matter of figuring out which you >have and setting up some tables. Sure, if it's that simple. I wrote a driver for the ISA and the PCI version too (the first one -- doesn't the later PCI board need to have FPGA code fed to it at runtime?) and *never* got them working reliably, because junk bytes appeared in the buffer often enough to make reading impossible. Obviously it may be I just wrote horribly buggy code (that's how I've spent my whole life!) but the track data really seemed to be already munged when it was coming out of the SRAM buffer. So my guess is that I was violating some unwritten rule about not touching the registers at certain times, or something. I'd look it up in the manual ... if there were one! That's really what started this project -- I've spent *way* too much time hacking on driver code for Catweasels I spent *way* too much money on (I think I have four), for no results at all. >THe CW is useful for a lot of oddball formats. Right now, I've got a >batch of hard-sectored floppies to retrieve data from that were >written using a Zilog MCZ. Care for 132-byte sectors? Kinky! I wish I knew more about hard-sectored disks. I recently totally failed a customer who wanted some closed-captioning data read but had no idea what system the disk came from. >But then, I can emulate a Catweasel just fine--and get a USB >interface using just about any modern MCU. I prefer the PIC32 chips >but an ARM would do just fine also. I'm sure almost anything would work. I'm having a blast with the XMOS XS1. The instruction set is vile -- the usual RISC mishmash that's designed to make simple-minded C compilers look good -- but the way it handles events and hardware multi-threading is beyond awesome. You enable the events you care about (timers, GPIO changes, data in a channel) and then wait for the next one. Each hyperthread has all its own events. I have yet to need interrupts for anything... John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 01:07:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:07:57 -0800 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: <50DE1940.4000108@jwsss.com> References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> <50DE1940.4000108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50DE96CD.1030806@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 02:12 PM, jim s wrote: > Or, run a single ribbon on a TTY for 3 1/2 years (no budget) till you > could see it was almost white. I think the last few weeks it was mostly > printing oil on the paper. It's been a long time, but I've had good luck with "odorless lamp oil", which is essentially triple-filtered kerosene/paraffin. I think that there's a branded version called "Klean Heat" that's almost the same stuff. I use it as a lightweight lubricant (it has the viscosity of water and will evaoprate with time). I always have a gallon or so around here because wintertime power outages can last more than a day or two and an oil lamp actually delivers quite a bit of light. You might investigate getting some rubber stamp pad ink and apply it to your dry ribbon. The old "Mac Inker" was a rig with a felt pad with a reservoir that spread ink onto your slowly-moving ribbon. Motive power was a small geared down (perhaps 4 RPM) synchronous motor. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Dec 29 01:17:16 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 07:17:16 -0000 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Well, when I worked at DEC in the terminals group in fact they used WD40's penetrating qualities to un-clog print heads before a quick wash in a solvent. The temporary ribbon recovery was a side effect noted by a field engineer. Most head problems on LA series ribbon printers were due to fiber migration into the synthetic agate vertical alignment guide. That and third party ribbons with high clay content wearing the pins. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 28 December 2012 21:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fans for a PDP-9? Rod Smallwood wrote: > WD40 will bring back a dried out ribbon at least for a while. Yes, and gum up the printhead. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 29 01:30:54 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 07:30:54 -0000 Subject: more shameless parts trafficking DEC LA12 Correspondent. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023201cde596$719297a0$54b7c6e0$@ntlworld.com> I am curious about the description of your second item where you say: "Up for auction is a Pdp-11/73 Qbus minicomputer system. . This is similiar to, but NOT, a MicroPdp!" What is the difference between a PDP11/73 and a MicroPDP? I have a machine where the front panel states it is a Micro PDP-11/73. Would love some of this stuff, but shipping to the UK is going to be too expensive. Regards Rob NB Your TU58 listing has the word "Warning", but the warning itself is not there. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom publix > Sent: 28 December 2012 21:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: more shameless parts trafficking DEC LA12 Correspondent. > > Clearing out more stuff. Goes on Ebay tonite at 7:00pm > > 251205551653 Apollo series 400 $49 > 251205617681 Pdp11/73 & MV2 boards $399 > 251205572249 Pdp 11/04 Unibus prog console $399 > 251205610973 DEC DecWriter Correspondent LA12 $199 > 251205547379 DEC BA23 cabinet shelfs/brackets $39.00 > 251205601864 Dual 8" floppy system w/unibus Ctrler $189.00 > 251205593426 Apple Mac IIfx w/ethernet card $99.00 > 251205606245 DEC VT100 $149.00 > 251205602838 DEC TU58 tape drive &2 tapes $99.00 > > Tom P. (tcp1022) From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 02:04:42 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:04:42 -0800 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > The question at hand: Can a PMI processor -- in this case a KDJ11-BF > -- be put into a non-PMI serpentine QBUS backplane? Or will the magic > smoke be released. > EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf Chapter 2 Configuration 2.1 Introduction This chapter discusses the configuration requirements and other factors to consider when configuring the KDJ11-B module and installing it into an LSI-11 system. The module must be installed in a backplane that has the extended LSI-11 bus in the A/B rows and the interconnecting bus in the C/D rows. A 22-bit LSI bus utilizes the full capability of the module and the interconnecting bus is required because of the PMI feature of the module. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Dec 29 06:31:17 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 13:31:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: DP8473A In-Reply-To: <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, it's annoying to be working with a WD17xx-created format without the IAM > and have a 765-type FDC "go blind" during the "PLL sync" period. There was a > NEC uPD7265 that omitted the IAM for so-called "Sony Mode" recording, but > those are exceedingly rare. The (original) IBM floppy format doesn't know about the IAM. So all my IBM floppies (e.g. 5110, 4331 etc.) don't have IAMs and can be read/written by a PC without any problem using any FM capable FDC. That's the way I prefer to transfer data to/from my 5110. Christian From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Dec 29 09:04:36 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:04:36 -0500 Subject: System/36 manuals Message-ID: Sorry, My bad. I've actually scanned one or two of these for Al in the dim and distant past. But I'd never done the whole set. --Colin Dave McGuire wrote: > > Al is the one looking for them, not me. > > -Dave > >On 12/28/2012 06:57 PM, Colin Eby wrote: >> Dave, >> >> This is one set of manuals I know TNMoC archive does have (cause I >> donated them). Are you looking for something in particular? None have >> been scanned yet. I might be able to do something by special >> arrangement though. I'm back in the weekend by the 12th. >> >> On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 14:53 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 12/28/2012 12:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> I've been working on getting my S36 maint drawing set uploaded, and >>>> realized >>>> that I don't have very many manuals for the system. Does anyone have any >>>> that >>>> they'd be willing to have scanned? >>> >>> I have lots of S/36 manuals. It will be awhile before I can unearth >>> them, but when I do, I can likely provide them. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> >> > > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 09:55:56 2012 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 08:55:56 -0700 Subject: more shameless parts trafficking DEC LA12 Correspondent. In-Reply-To: <023201cde596$719297a0$54b7c6e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <023201cde596$719297a0$54b7c6e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The MicroPdp used the quadwide KDJ11-BA board and the 11/73 I have up has the dual wide -AA board. The earlier BA23 chassis the Micropdp's were problematic with wiring and PS problems. The beefed up chassis for the MV2 fixed some of theses problems. On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 12:30 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am curious about the description of your second item where you say: "Up > for auction is a Pdp-11/73 Qbus minicomputer system. . This is similiar to, > but NOT, a MicroPdp!" > > What is the difference between a PDP11/73 and a MicroPDP? I have a machine > where the front panel states it is a Micro PDP-11/73. > > Would love some of this stuff, but shipping to the UK is going to be too > expensive. > > Regards > > Rob > > NB Your TU58 listing has the word "Warning", but the warning itself is not > there. > > Fixed! Thanks for the heads-up >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom publix >> Sent: 28 December 2012 21:26 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: more shameless parts trafficking DEC LA12 Correspondent. >> >> Clearing out more stuff. Goes on Ebay tonite at 7:00pm >> >> 251205551653 Apollo series 400 $49 >> 251205617681 Pdp11/73 & MV2 boards $399 >> 251205572249 Pdp 11/04 Unibus prog console $399 >> 251205610973 DEC DecWriter Correspondent LA12 $199 >> 251205547379 DEC BA23 cabinet shelfs/brackets $39.00 >> 251205601864 Dual 8" floppy system w/unibus Ctrler $189.00 >> 251205593426 Apple Mac IIfx w/ethernet card $99.00 >> 251205606245 DEC VT100 $149.00 >> 251205602838 DEC TU58 tape drive &2 tapes $99.00 >> >> Tom P. (tcp1022) > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 29 10:36:38 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 08:36:38 -0800 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> On 12/28/12 4:03 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> Please consider a PCI version. There are several people I know looking >> for that. > > I'd sure consider it, but the PCI SIG doesn't kid around with their fees! > When I talked to them (many years ago when it was slightly cheaper) they > wouldn't even guarantee that they wouldn't reallocate your vendor ID if > you stopped renewing, although it's hard to see how they could do it w/o > causing just as many problems for the new owner. > It really seems like devices like this should be Ethernet with TCP/IP. The device is vendor neutral (no drivers to load) and no t(r)olls to pay for USB or PCI IDs. I've been working on a couple of coupler designs using one of the Chinese LM3S9B92 blue boards http://www.ebay.com/itm/150839172147 From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 11:57:21 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:57:21 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 December 2012 03:04, Glen Slick wrote: > EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf > > Chapter 2 Configuration > 2.1 Introduction > This chapter discusses the configuration requirements and other > factors to consider when configuring the KDJ11-B module and installing > it into an LSI-11 system. The module must be installed in a backplane > that has the extended LSI-11 bus in the A/B rows and the > interconnecting bus in the C/D rows. A 22-bit LSI bus utilizes the > full capability of the module and the interconnecting bus is required > because of the PMI feature of the module. You do not know how much I've looked through that PDF and completely missed that section of text. And in other news, I want to thank the many people who have contacted me offlist with regards to helping me acquire boards. You'll all either have received an e-mail from me, or will be receiving one rather soon. Thanks very much, Christian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 12:18:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:18:13 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: <20121229065559.GB14117@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229023021.GA12231@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE6AAE.80408@sydex.com> <20121229065559.GB14117@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50DF33E5.6090706@sydex.com> On 12/28/2012 10:55 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Sure, if it's that simple. I wrote a driver for the ISA and the PCI > version too (the first one -- doesn't the later PCI board need to have FPGA > code fed to it at runtime?) and *never* got them working reliably, because > junk bytes appeared in the buffer often enough to make reading impossible. That may be true for the CW MK4, but that was not the case for MK3 PCI. I suspect that if you try to implement this with a PCI-ISA bridge chip, you'll be in for agony supporting legacy DMA correctly. I've got a couple of P3 mobos with Intel 810 and 815 chipsets that use the National bridge chip to support ISA slots. Legacy 8-bit DMA absolutely fails on both of them from the ISA slots. Oddly, the built-in floppy support (Super I/O chip) works just fine, but ISA DMA doesn't work at all. I haven't the faintest idea why--the chip datasheet says that it shouldn't be a problem. Earlier Intel chips (e.g., 440) don't have this issue, as ISA support is part of the deal. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 12:39:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:39:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: DP8473A In-Reply-To: References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121229091412.E64915@shell.lmi.net> > On Fri, 28 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yes, it's annoying to be working with a WD17xx-created format without > > the IAM and have a 765-type FDC "go blind" during the "PLL sync" > > period. There was a NEC uPD7265 that omitted the IAM for so-called > > "Sony Mode" recording, but those are exceedingly rare. On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > The (original) IBM floppy format doesn't know about the IAM. So all my IBM > floppies (e.g. 5110, 4331 etc.) don't have IAMs and can be read/written by > a PC without any problem using any FM capable FDC. That's the way I prefer > to transfer data to/from my 5110. Two different things, although they both involve "index" Oversimplification (for those not familiar, or accustomed to disk formats (Atari, Commode, Apple ][), where the index of the disk is not used): There is a small hole in the disk. On most formats (other than the above), there is a small hole through the medai and a light and photocell. When light shines through the hole, a pulse is sent back to the disk controller, called an "index pulse". It is a hard mark of the start of the track. In addition, a few drives, including some Teac 55's use that to determine whether the disk is spinning. The stock Option Board software relies on the index pulse. NEC chose to resync their PLL when it sees that pulse. That means that the NEC chip is "blind" or "deaf", and can not see ANYTHING for a little while after the pulse, "but is fully enabled in plenty of time for the start of data." WD does NOT do that. Some disk formats, that use WD controllers, in order to squeeze the maximum capacity on the disk end up starting their first sector during that time. Therefore, there can be some difficulties reading such disks (such as Cromemco, TRS80, etc.) The index hole and its resulting pulse are used for identifying the start of the track for formatting, but are generally not needed for normal successful reads and writes. Therefore, many of the problems reading such disks can be circumvented by covering the index hole. Except for some drives, AND an unsuccessful read may generate the wrong error code. PLEASE don't design controllers that "go blind" after index. "Index Address Mark" is a completely different issue! The IBM/WD disk formatting pattern was originally called "IBM Soft Sector Disk Format", but when the 5150 came into existence, too many people thought that "IBM Format" meant PC-DOS. Without going into the full blather about splice gaps, resynchronization, etc., . . . Each sector has a special byte (with non-standard timing pulses) ("ID address mark"/IDAM) to mark the beginning of the sector header, and a "Data Address Mark"/DAM (a different byte with non-standard timing pulses) to mark the start of the data. In addition, there is an INDEX address mark/IAM (a different byte with non-standard timing pulse) to mark the start of the track. Since a read attempt might start anywhere in the track, to avoid excessive latency, most systems do NOT wait to see index. They will start reading as soon as they see what appears to be data, and wait for the desired sector header to come around. Accordingly, if everything is going smoothly, index is never really needed other than to know where to start a track when formatting. If that wasn't more than you want to know about it, or if you are offended by the oversimplifications, we could go through the reasons and structures of every part of the IBM/WD soft-sector disk format. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 14:44:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:44:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <20121227184458.A20159@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174242.E96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356650879.19456.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121227184458.A20159@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1356813856.66290.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin > SHUGART 801 is SINGLE sided > SHUGART 851 is DOUBLE sided. On Thu, 27 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: But we already discussed the Option Board s/w's ability to specify > whether you're reading single sided or double sided disks (I think), so > there's no reason for me searching for a double sided model. I don't > think... ONCE MORE! Do you want to read double sided disks? If so, then you need the 851.? Option board will certainly not give you capability of reading double sided disks in a single sided drive. C: But the option board just reads flux. Why couldn't you put a double sided disk in a single sided drive and read it off. My Commie 1541-II used to read the one side of a single sided disk. Maybe I don't have an acceptable understanding of what the Option Board/software does. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Dec 29 02:12:48 2012 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:12:48 -0800 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? (TTY Reink discussion) In-Reply-To: <50DE96CD.1030806@sydex.com> References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> <50DE1940.4000108@jwsss.com> <50DE96CD.1030806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DEA600.5010007@jwsss.com> On 12/28/2012 11:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/28/2012 02:12 PM, jim s wrote: > >> Or, run a single ribbon on a TTY for 3 1/2 years (no budget) till you >> could see it was almost white. I think the last few weeks it was mostly >> printing oil on the paper. > > It's been a long time, but I've had good luck with "odorless lamp > oil", which is essentially triple-filtered kerosene/paraffin. I think > that there's a branded version called "Klean Heat" that's almost the > same stuff. I use it as a lightweight lubricant (it has the viscosity > of water and will evaoprate with time). I always have a gallon or so > around here because wintertime power outages can last more than a day > or two and an oil lamp actually delivers quite a bit of light. > > You might investigate getting some rubber stamp pad ink and apply it > to your dry ribbon. The old "Mac Inker" was a rig with a felt pad > with a reservoir that spread ink onto your slowly-moving ribbon. > Motive power was a small geared down (perhaps 4 RPM) synchronous motor. > > --Chuck Good suggestion. However you are dealing with college students and what oil was available. I was amazed at how much of the oil the pad retained. This would have been much better, but not sure if the oil would have pooled or evaporated in the bottom of the TTY. Note there was no budget for a replacement ribbon, or a place on campus from which to steal one. Being one of the obtainers of supplies from other departments, they all had better hard copy terminals, or printers than the rattle trap. Once some of the students had graduated, supplies freed up elsewhere, and made their way back to the lab. Jim From gerardcjat at free.fr Sat Dec 29 11:18:34 2012 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:18:34 +0100 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) References: Message-ID: Hello, It's the first time I post on this forum, so please, bear with me .... About PCI to ISA cards, ** possibly ** with DMA : Did you check theses guys : http://www.costronic.com.tw/ They manufacture lot of "interface" boards ( PCI, ISA, etc ... ) and have a lot of things, may be there is something of interest for you ? ( I mean : with DMA ) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 14:52:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:52:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50DE6B4D.1030206@sydex.com> References: <50DE6B4D.1030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356814329.20413.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 12/28/2012 06:48 AM, Arnold de Gelder wrote: > I think it does, but my M24's have the 1.43 ROM version, so I cannot check it. > Mmm, I don't know an EDA card, sorry. Maybe I've got the name wrong--perhaps it was called the EDB--it was a display enhancement board added to the M24 and attached to the standard controller that provided 16 colors per pixel (IIRC) in 640x400 hi-res mode. --Chuck C: I would love details on that board if anyone has them. Where's Jim Leonard? From wilson at dbit.com Sat Dec 29 15:03:20 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 16:03:20 -0500 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 08:36:38AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >It really seems like devices like this should be Ethernet with TCP/IP. >The device is vendor neutral (no drivers to load) and no t(r)olls to pay >for USB or PCI IDs. No argument there. Plus you don't even have to be on the same continent as the drive you're reading! Blocks of MAC addresses do cost money, but Microchip sells them a la carte nice and cheap. A few years ago the sensible thing would be to use SCSI. SCSI-1 isn't hard at all, and *that* crowd is totally cool about vendor IDs! Email them your 8-character name, they say OK, and now you're safely unique, for free. But it seems like these days everything everywhere is about making people keep paying you fees forever. They must teach that in business school... >I've been working on a couple of coupler designs using >one of the Chinese LM3S9B92 blue boards > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/150839172147 Looks like fun and the price sure is right. John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 15:09:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356813856.66290.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <1356562094.37383.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121226174242.E96558@shell.lmi.net> <1356650879.19456.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121227184458.A20159@shell.lmi.net> <1356813856.66290.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121229125532.U64915@shell.lmi.net> > > > > SHUGART 801 is SINGLE sided > > > > SHUGART 851 is DOUBLE sided. > > ONCE MORE! > > Do you want to read double sided disks? > > If so, then you need the 851.? Option board will certainly > > not give you capability of reading double sided disks in a > > single sided drive. On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C:\DERP> But the option board just reads flux. Why couldn't you put a > double sided disk in a single sided drive and read it off. My Commie > 1541-II used to read the one side of a single sided disk. Maybe I don't > have an acceptable understanding of what the Option Board/software does. Your commode doesn't use index pulse. With the option board and a double sided disk in a single sided drive, you will be able to read the first side of the disk. If you flip the disk over and put it in backwards, the Option Board SOFTWARE will not work at all, because it won't see any index pulse. (NOT USED in Commode, Apple][, and Atari) IF you repunch the jacket, or modify the drive for an additionalindex sensor, so that it sees an index pulse, then the Option Board software will still be useless, because it can't understand backwards tracks, and they never considered adding such a capability to the software just because you won't get a double sided drive for your double sided diskettes. IFF you repunch the jacket or modify the drive, AND write your own software from scratch for a flux-transition board, then there is no reason why you couldn't read the second side of the disk by flipping it. Is it THAT hard to find a double sided drive?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wilson at dbit.com Sat Dec 29 15:15:17 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 16:15:17 -0500 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121229211517.GB25257@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 06:18:34PM +0100, GerardCJAT wrote: >About PCI to ISA cards, ** possibly ** with DMA : > >Did you check theses guys : >http://www.costronic.com.tw/ > >They manufacture lot of "interface" boards ( PCI, ISA, etc ... ) >and have a lot of things, may be there is something of interest for you ? >( I mean : with DMA ) Oh man, SO close! I feel like an idiot for not having heard of PCI Distributed DMA any more (which sends 8237 DMAC requests over the PCI bus, and it's mentioned in the IT8888F data sheet on the link you gave). But a little googling suggests that recent chipsets don't bother implementing it any more. That would have solved everything but cost! John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 15:41:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 13:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20121229134017.J64915@shell.lmi.net> > >It really seems like devices like this should be Ethernet with TCP/IP. On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, John Wilson wrote: > No argument there. Plus you don't even have to be on the same continent > as the drive you're reading! Maybe I'm just too far out of date, but I don't understand the advantages of that feature. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 29 16:03:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 17:03:32 -0500 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <20121229134017.J64915@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <20121229134017.J64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50DF68B4.1000306@neurotica.com> On 12/29/2012 04:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It really seems like devices like this should be Ethernet with TCP/IP. > On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, John Wilson wrote: >> No argument there. Plus you don't even have to be on the same continent >> as the drive you're reading! > > Maybe I'm just too far out of date, but I don't understand the > advantages of that feature. Remote controllability is a good thing. A truly standardized interface that most anything can talk to is even better. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 16:20:33 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:20:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? Message-ID: <1356819633.53152.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 1:09 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> > > > SHUGART 801 is SINGLE sided >> > > > SHUGART 851 is DOUBLE sided. > >> > ONCE MORE! >> > Do you want to read double sided disks? > >> > If so, then you need the 851. Option board will certainly >> > not give you capability of reading double sided disks in a >> > single sided drive. > >On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C:\DERP> But the option board just reads flux. Why couldn't you put a >> double sided disk in a single sided drive and read it off. My Commie >> 1541-II used to read the one side of a single sided disk. Maybe I don't >> have an acceptable understanding of what the Option Board/software does. > >Your commode doesn't use index pulse. > >With the option board and a double sided disk in a single sided >drive, you will be able to read the first side of the disk. >If you flip the disk over and put it in backwards, the >Option Board SOFTWARE will not work at all, because it won't >see any index pulse. (NOT USED in Commode, Apple][, and Atari) > >IF you repunch the jacket, or modify the drive for an >additionalindex sensor, so that it sees an index pulse, >then the Option Board software will still be useless, >because it can't understand backwards tracks, and they >never considered adding such a capability to the software >just because you won't get a double sided drive for your >double sided diskettes. > >IFF you repunch the jacket or modify the drive, AND write >your own software from scratch for a flux-transition board, >then there is no reason why you couldn't read the second >side of the disk by flipping it. >Is it THAT hard to find a double sided drive?? > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > hows about reversing the motors direction, perhaps using a twisty belt for the udder sides? Money is an issue at the moment, considering it migh take the better part of a c note to have it delivered. From wilson at dbit.com Sat Dec 29 16:38:30 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 17:38:30 -0500 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <20121229134017.J64915@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <20121229134017.J64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121229223830.GA26334@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 01:41:17PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> No argument there. Plus you don't even have to be on the same continent >> as the drive you're reading! > >Maybe I'm just too far out of date, but I don't understand the >advantages of that feature. You must be expecting a *practical* advantage! :-) It's kind of like how Massbus is (if I remember right) specified to be up to 75' long. That seems like overkill until you try to get a TU77 up a flight of stairs! It's not that you *would* just leave it in the truck and use it there, but it's awesome that you *could*. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 16:48:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:48:26 -0800 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DF733A.6090907@sydex.com> On 12/29/2012 09:18 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: > Did you check theses guys : > http://www.costronic.com.tw/ > > They manufacture lot of "interface" boards ( PCI, ISA, etc ... ) > and have a lot of things, may be there is something of interest for you ? > ( I mean : with DMA ) Those PCI-ISA bridge cards have been on that website at least for 10 years. After numerous emails over the years, I have yet to receive a response concerning availability and pricing. There's another outfit that offers/used to offer a USB-to-ISA kit. You used their own drivers for Windows. I don't personally know anyone with one. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 16:52:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:52:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <1356819633.53152.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356819633.53152.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121229143627.C64915@shell.lmi.net> > >IFF you repunch the jacket or modify the drive, AND write > >your own software from scratch for a flux-transition board, > >then there is no reason why you couldn't read the second > >side of the disk by flipping it. On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > hows about reversing the motors direction, perhaps using a twisty belt > for the udder sides? Money is an issue at the moment, considering it > migh take the better part of a c note to have it delivered. To really be useful, the Option Board needs completely different software. If you write new software for it, then it would be a nice feature to include analysis of reversed tracks. There is a document on the web somewhere on programming the Option Board. (The "Confidential" stamped on it is an error from a new clerk at my office who thought that rubber stamps were fun) But, if you modify the drive for a different index sensor (hint: I have modified 5.25" drives to index from the spindle, instead of the disk! (for other reasons)), or repunch the jacket (sorry, I am completely out of stock on 8" index repunch jigs), then reversing the motor might be a way to go. SOME drives have DC motors, some AC. Electrically reversing the motor might be more reliable than a twisted belt. Converting a single sided drive to double sided doesn't seem practical either. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 29 16:55:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:55:20 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356814329.20413.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <50DE6B4D.1030206@sydex.com> <1356814329.20413.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DF74D8.50102@sydex.com> On 12/29/2012 12:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: I would love details on that board if anyone has them. Where's Jim Leonard? The EDB is covered both in the 6300 Service Manual and User Guide. There's also a schematic for it on the Italian "official" M24 website. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 16:56:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <20121229223830.GA26334@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <20121229134017.J64915@shell.lmi.net> <20121229223830.GA26334@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20121229145338.K64915@shell.lmi.net> > >> No argument there. Plus you don't even have to be on the same continent > >> as the drive you're reading! > >Maybe I'm just too far out of date, but I don't understand the > >advantages of that feature. On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, John Wilson wrote: > You must be expecting a *practical* advantage! :-) > It's kind of like how Massbus is (if I remember right) specified to be up > to 75' long. That seems like overkill until you try to get a TU77 up a > flight of stairs! It's not that you *would* just leave it in the truck > and use it there, but it's awesome that you *could*. THAT could be useful. Even internet access to my thermostat might be handy, although I'd have a hard time not worrying about errors, or unauthorized resetting. But, to put the disk drive elsewhere, then I would also need a remotely accessible robot arm to take the disk out of the package and put it into the drive. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Dec 29 17:44:34 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:44:34 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> >Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >Hello everyone! > >I have a question which to some might seem rather obvious to some, but >I cannot find the answer. And guessing by my recent streak of luck >I'll probably find the answer to this question after posting the >question to the list... Nevermind, back on topic. > > >The question at hand: Can a PMI processor -- in this case a KDJ11-BF >-- be put into a non-PMI serpentine QBUS backplane? Or will the magic >smoke be released. > > In the past, I have placed an M8190-AB into the backplane for a VT103 which is a non-PMI serpentine 4 * 4 (four double dual slots serpentine) Qbus backplane. I have also placed that M8190-AB into a BA23 in the third slot position with 2 * 2MB PMI boards in slots 1 and 2. The 3 board configuration is reported by RT-11 as a PDP-11/83 with PMI memory. The system is also about 20% faster than if the 2 PMI boards are placed in slots 2 and 3 and the M8190-AB is placed in slot 1. This would indicate to me that there is a very high probability that all M8190 boards are essentially the same and able to be placed in either an ABCD slot (as with the first 3 slots of the BA23) or an ABAB slot (as with all the slots in the VT103). I suspect that the M8190-AE is named mainly for the 18 MHz crystal which also requires a more recent rev of both the CPU and the floating point chip firmware to be able to execute at the higher 18 MHz speed than the 15 MHz speed of the M8190-AC. So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct slot(s). In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103 backplane which will not support PMI activation. Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the M8190-AE is placed into a VT103 backplane. So can anyone reading this confirm the above? >If the answer is a resounding "no". Any one here have a KDJ11-AC >(M8192-YC) they'd be willing to trade for a KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE)? > > Why are you reverting to a dual board without the boot ROMs? I have tested a VT103 (22 bit upgraded) with an M8190-AB board and one 4 MB quad memory board (obviously non-PMI memory) in the second slot.. It worked very well and no magic smoke was released. The other two ABAB slots had a Quad ESDI controller and a DHV11. It was a great demo system. Obviously the three 600 MB ESDI drives had to be placed outside the VT103 on a separate power supply and I added a fan for each drive as well. Running RT-11 with 600 MB hard drives is enjoyable since there is ample space for files. If the VM: device driver is used as the system disk, it is even possible to power down the ESDI drives, replace one or more of the ESDI drives, then power the ESDI drives back up. You can then UNLOAD and then LOAD the MSCP device driver and just continue without losing anything, although I would ALWAYS close all files on all of the EDSI hard drives first, just as you would if you were using any other replaceable media such as an RX50 or an RX02 floppy diskette. Which Qbus backplane with only ABAB serpentine slots do you have? I do have an M8192-YB which would require adding the Floating point chip. >I'm also interested in some other QBUS '11 boards, a -- short -- list >follows, in order of precedence: > > >>DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M (M8043) -- or compatible >>QBUS (non-PMI) memory -- I'd *LOVE* to get an MSV11-QC (M7551-CA, 4MB), -QB (-BA, 2MB) or -QA (-AA, 1MB) memory board; I'd also be fine with a 256KB MSV11-LK (M8059-K*) board >>22-bit compatible boot ROM board -- e.g. The BDV11 (M8012) revision E. >>QBUS SCSI controller -- I'm really gunning for the CMD CQD-220A/TM, though I'm for any form of QBUS SCSI controller that can be both TMSCP tape and MSCP disk controller at the same time >>DRV11-J (M8049) -- or compatible >>DHV11 (M3104) -- or compatible >>LPV11 (M8027 >>DELQA (M7516) -- or compatible >> >> >I would love to get all DEC original boards -- save the SCSI >controller, as I would the system to have mostly DEC innards. > Assuming that you can use the M8190-AE, you can skip the BDV11. The 4 MB of memory should not be too difficult to find. More memory is always helpful. How many slots does you backplane have? Can you find a BA23 box instead and use the PMI memory? With 8 quad slots, you will have no problems with all of those boards. >If any one can tell from that list, I'm setting up a complete PDP-11 >system. In this case replacing one. Don't ask what happened to the >machine that is being replaced be cause I will go on a twenty minute >long rant consisting of nothing but swearing. > You probably will not forget what you imply you did that makes a replacement necessary. I remember the ":forgetful" moment that I had many years ago with two RD52 drives in a BA23 box when both has the DS3 set. I lost the contents of both drives. >Many thanks for any help offered! > >Cheers, >Christian G. > Please let us know what the answer is if you hear privately! Jerome Fine P.S. With regard to the response that Glen Slick provided: >EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf > >Chapter 2 Configuration >2.1 Introduction >This chapter discusses the configuration requirements and other >factors to consider when configuring the KDJ11-B module and installing >it into an LSI-11 system. The module must be installed in a backplane >that has the extended LSI-11 bus in the A/B rows and the >interconnecting bus in the C/D rows. A 22-bit LSI bus utilizes the >full capability of the module and the interconnecting bus is required >because of the PMI feature of the module. I notice that while the full capabilities of the module require that installation be made into an ABCD backplane below the PMI memory, there is no requirement that this be done as far as normal operation of the memory is concerned. I seem to remember that Megan Gentry also posted a comment in this regard many years ago and noted that if the PMI memory is installed below the CPU, it will act as normal memory. It is very likely that the comment was made in respect of a BA23 box which has the ABCD backplane for the first three slots, but I could be wrong. In any case, the above portion of the document only stipulates that an ABCD slot must be used to obtain PMI operation (and the increased speed) of the memory. It does not say that an ABAB slot must not be used because damage will occur to the M8190-AE board. Hopefully, someone else will see your original question and state one way or the other concerning the possibility of damage to an M8190-AE when it is installed in an ABAB slot. My guess at the moment is that an ABAB slot will not cause any damage to an M8190-AE, just that PMI memory will function as non-PMI memory without the increased speed. But I could be VERY wrong. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 17:53:58 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:53:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: <20121229143627.C64915@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356819633.53152.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121229143627.C64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you write new software for it, then it would be a nice > feature to include analysis of reversed tracks. > There is a document on the web somewhere on programming the > Option Board. (The "Confidential" stamped on it is an error > from a new clerk at my office who thought that rubber stamps > were fun) I haven't been able to find any API documention for the Deluxe Option Board. If your writeup pertains to it, a URL or valid Google search term would be greatly appreciated. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 18:17:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 16:17:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Displaywriter software? In-Reply-To: References: <1356819633.53152.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121229143627.C64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121229161321.P64915@shell.lmi.net> > > There is a document on the web somewhere on programming the > > Option Board. On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I haven't been able to find any API documention for the Deluxe Option > Board. If your writeup pertains to it, a URL or valid Google search term > would be greatly appreciated. Not my write-up; just something that Central Point sent me. It does not exactly match what I found in disassembly of TE.COM They wanted software to transfer files to and fro with Mac diskettes. I told them that the [non-deluxe] Option Board did not have enough range of data transfer rate. They went with somebody else for the software for the Deluxe. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 19:27:48 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:27:48 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> Message-ID: Hello! I'm going to just make this response public just so that everyone can know more about the system that I've got my hands on. Plus for any one morbidly curious there's also the story of what happened to my previous '11 system... On 29 December 2012 18:44, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > In the past, I have placed an M8190-AB into the backplane for a VT103 > which is a non-PMI serpentine 4 * 4 (four double dual slots serpentine) Qbus Hmm, that I should remember if I can get another quad wide CPU, I've a VT-103 and it's currently running on a "puny" 11/23. Though, isn't the VT-103 backplane only Q18 not Q22? (Is it a wirewrap backplane? Or can an upgrade to Q22 be done easily, if it isn't?) > backplane. I have also placed that M8190-AB into a BA23 in the third slot > position with 2 * 2MB PMI boards in slots 1 and 2. The 3 board > configuration > is reported by RT-11 as a PDP-11/83 with PMI memory. The system is also > about 20% faster than if the 2 PMI boards are placed in slots 2 and 3 and > the An interesting thing is I seem to recall that if you use the dual wide J-11 processor in a machine it's an 11/73, if you use a quad-wide J-11 -- that isn't the 11/53 -- with PMI RAM behind the CPU on the backplane, it's an 11/83 or 11/93. Stick that same memory in front of the CPU, or use only QBUS memories and it becomes an 11/73B. Some one else can check if I got that fact right. > So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but > the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct > slot(s). > In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103 > backplane which will not support PMI activation. > That's basically the crux of my question. I don't really need/want PMI memory, as the backplane I have doesn't support PMI as it's all Q22 ABAB. > Why are you reverting to a dual board without the boot ROMs? I have > tested a VT103 (22 bit upgraded) with an M8190-AB board and one > 4 MB quad memory board (obviously non-PMI memory) in the second slot.. > It worked very well and no magic smoke was released. The other two The "downgrade" is because if the KDJ11-BF won't play nice on an ABAB backplane the KDJ11-AC + (22-bit capable) BDV11 will. > ABAB slots had a Quad ESDI controller and a DHV11. It was a great > demo system. Obviously the three 600 MB ESDI drives had to be > placed outside the VT103 on a separate power supply and I added > a fan for each drive as well. Running RT-11 with 600 MB hard drives > is enjoyable since there is ample space for files. If the VM: device > driver is used as the system disk, it is even possible to power down > the ESDI drives, replace one or more of the ESDI drives, then power > the ESDI drives back up. You can then UNLOAD and then LOAD > the MSCP device driver and just continue without losing anything, > although I would ALWAYS close all files on all of the EDSI hard > drives first, just as you would if you were using any other replaceable > media such as an RX50 or an RX02 floppy diskette. > I *WANT* your VT-103. So much. Mine is a rather less impressive system, only a KDF11-AB (if I remember that;s the designation of the one with an MMU but no FPP), and NatSemi 256KB RAM board, a DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M and a 18-bit only BDV11. No internal TU58. > Which Qbus backplane with only ABAB serpentine slots do you have? > An H9275A, Q22 bus, not Q18. It's the 4x9 that'll fit into a BA11-N box. If I remember correctly, the 11/23+ version of the BA11-N box comes with that one in it by default. Though, my box is a PDP-11/03 box that got upgraded. As a complete tangent I also have an H9273A backplane (4x9 backplane that fits in a BA11-N box, Q18 ABCD all the way down) that isn't doing anything... > I do have an M8192-YB which would require adding the Floating point chip. > Actually, I got an offer of a KDJ11-AC (M8192-YC) for my KDJ11-BF. So I'm not losing much more beyond a few MHz of clock. Same individual also has a 22-bit capable BDV11 so that won't be much of a problem. This is especially nice since the BA11- box the backplane -- and system -- live in has a pair of clip things to prevent the bottom card in the backplane from being removed, which I don't want to faff about with so I'll just stick the BDV11 in there, as bus termination is a good thing. > Assuming that you can use the M8190-AE, you can skip the BDV11. The 4 MB > of memory should not be too difficult to find. More memory is always > helpful. > How many slots does you backplane have? Can you find a BA23 box instead > and use the PMI memory? With 8 quad slots, you will have no problems with > all > of those boards. > My backplane is 4 by 9. So more space then the BA23 though, not PMI capable. Nope, I can't get my hands on a BA23 box. And I have no wish to get a BA23 box (though I do like how you can stick a hard disk/RX50/MSCP cartridge tape into its two front slots), plus it would look just a bit "off" (read: ugly) having the beige BA23 the lovely -- very white -- DEC short rack I got my hands on that has the --equally very white -- BA11-N box in it. Especially since both the rack and the box are a PDP-11/03-L rack, with associated, matching bevels/faceplates. > You probably will not forget what you imply you did that makes a > replacement necessary. I remember the ":forgetful" moment that I > had many years ago with two RD52 drives in a BA23 box when > both has the DS3 set. I lost the contents of both drives. > Yes, I'm never again letting the machine out of my sight or leaving the house without Crazy Psycho Bitch Lady With No Respect For Personal Property in tow, and/or the machine and rack bolted to the floor, wall, and any available fixed surface. Because *I* didn't do anything to lose my entire PDP-11 system beyond living at my university dorm. CPBLWNRFPP did something to my system and it is out of my possession without any way for me to get it back -- and she can't give me a straight story as to whether she threw the machine out, or sold it. Personally since she has no idea what the machine was other then an -- in her words -- "old, dirty, fucking computer" I think she carted it to the dump and tossed it. Oh and it was *FAR* from dirty as I made sure to keep it spotless (the all white bevel/faceplate drove me nuts as it seemed to attract dust from everywhere in a three light year radius... just like my piano). It *really* pissed me off as I had amassed a nice collection of cards -- thank you to who sent me those, you know who you are and I am eternally grateful to you -- which was quite impressive, if I had a bit more RAM and backplanes I could've built another two or three '11 systems and still had cards left over! Also, I had a nice collection of software on 8" diskette which I'm probably never going to be able to replace -- and some of which was probably unobtanium, which I never got a chance to try and image because, as mentioned, living in a university dorm; neither did I have it catalogued as again, university. I also had a nice collection of peripherals, namely a quite rare -- since I've not seen another -- DSD-880/8 combination of 8" DSDD capable diskette drive and 8MB drive that pretended to be a slightly crippled RL02. There was also an RX50, but I never got a chance to use it... Oh and I shouldn't forget to mention that I got a majority of the system *for free* as gifts and trades with others. I especially like the fact I got a CQD-220A/TM for a steal of only $150.00, and now I'm probably going to be paying out the nose to replace just that card. Thank Christ my VT-103 was somewhere else -- sitting on a shelf in my old high school on a long-term loan because aforementioned CPBLWNRFPP had a conniption when I got it and I did not want to see it get tossed in the trash, nor did I have any time to put it anywhere better. Oh look, I'm ranting. I'm going to cut this off before the swearing starts. > Please let us know what the answer is if you hear privately! > > Jerome Fine > I still haven't heard an authoritative answer one way or another -- beyond yours of course -- as to whether or not I can put the PMI processor in the non-PMI backplane, so I'll keep holding out. Or just trade it, as I don't mind the slight downgrade in performance. Cheers, Christian From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 19:40:53 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:40:53 -0500 Subject: FS: A ton of mac stuff- CHEAP Message-ID: <50DF9BA5.3060409@gmail.com> Clearing out more stuff I got a nice Mac SE/30 Working with keyboard and mouse Will come with 64MB RAM to install and a 2GB 50pin SCSI Drive $125 shipped A Mac IIci 24MB RAM 1GB HDD emachines 16bit VGA Nubus card Ethernet Card Dayna Turbo040 40mhz 040 upgrade card. and a 40mhz Radius Rocket Card installed $200 shipped or best. Also has a matching Mac monitor to go with it if you need it. Keyboard and mouse included as well. The radius rocket is pretty hard to find, lets you run another instance of the mac os on the card Still got lots of Apple IIGS RGB Monitors as well $50 shipped anywhere in the USA Along with Apple Monitor //s For 50 shipped anywhere in the USA Some of the cheap machines Power Mac 8100 in nice shape at least a 1GB HDD in it and 32MB RAM. Comes with G3 upgrade card $75 shipped PowerMac 9600/300, The last six PCI slot mac, really nice, 64MB RAM 4GB HDD $120 shipped Got the following machines for 50 bucks each shipped Quadra 610 8MB RAM/250MB HDD Centris 650 8MB RAM/500MB HDD Performa 600 8MB RAM/250MB HDD Mac IIcx 8mb ram/80MB HDD Power Mac 7100s, all have at least 16MB RAM in them and 500-1GB HDDs Power Mac 6100s all have at least 8MB RAM in them and 250MB-1GB HDDs, includes the Performa 6115 and whatnot. Got multiples of each. Steve From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Dec 29 20:08:03 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:08:03 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50DFA203.1090408@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/12/12 8:27 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > ... > >> So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but >> the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct >> slot(s). >> In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103 >> backplane which will not support PMI activation. >> > That's basically the crux of my question. I don't really need/want PMI > memory, as the backplane I have doesn't support PMI as it's all Q22 > ABAB. Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper from CPU to RAM. > ... > I *WANT* your VT-103. So much. Mine is a rather less impressive > system, only a KDF11-AB (if I remember that;s the designation of the > one with an MMU but no FPP), and NatSemi 256KB RAM board, a > DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M and a 18-bit only BDV11. No internal TU58. I want *your* VT-103! :) --Toby From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 20:13:43 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:13:43 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: <50DFA203.1090408@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> <50DFA203.1090408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 29 December 2012 21:08, Toby Thain wrote: > Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper from CPU > to RAM. > You're mistaking uVAX memory with PDP-11 memory. uVAXen have the ribbon cables, and the CD slot. On the PDP-11 processors and RAM (and QBUS to UNIBUS adapter -- KTJ11, I think it is called -- in the 84 and 94) the PMI is all on only the CD slots of the board. > I want *your* VT-103! :) > Yes, I know. But I have no real way of dragging it out to Toronto; and if I remember nor do you have a way of coming out to Hamilton/Stoney Creek to get it. :P Cheers, Christian From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 29 22:50:05 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:50:05 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <50DB55D9.3010709 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > On 12/26/2012 11:30 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > Seen on one of my Google groups > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ > > Sigh, it seems that nothing's changed in the last 50 or so years. Why > anyone would want to write financial code in C++ is a little beyond me. Maybe you haven't looked at C++ in a while. Modern C++ is a single language that can encompass many programming styles. The situation described in the article cited has nothing to do with the programming language and everything to do with code development that leave out automated regression testing. If you have automated regression tests on the code base, then you can make improvements to the code base knowing that you didn't make things worse instead of better. Without it, you tend to make the minimally invasive change that is localized as much as possible. This results in the accumulated detritis described in the article as time passes. What was initially a nice clean design eventually becomes a giant stove-pipe engineered solution. Again, none of this has anything to do with the language chosen for the software, although some languages make it easier to create automated unit tests and automated regression tests that give you the confidence that your changes have made things better, not worse. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 29 22:52:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:52:56 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <50DB69C4.6010603 at gmail.com>, Dave writes: > It seems things have gone horrible, 50 years ago the code where I worked > was generally good. When I worked on a professional development team we > had coding standards that were adhered to, did code walk throughs, and > had proper documentation. These days it seems we don't have time for the > checks and balances that make code maintainable and reliable. Nonsense. If the code is uncared for, then it will become a ghetto. If the code is cared for, then it will remind you of a nice neighbourhood where you'd like to live. In every case, past and present, where I've seen dodgy code, the situation was always the same: the owners of the code didn't care. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 29 22:54:36 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:54:36 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink at verizon.net>, "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > Dave wrote: > > It seems things have gone horrible, 50 years ago the code > > where I worked was generally good. When I worked on a > > professional development team we had coding standards that > > were adhered to, did code walk throughs, and had proper > > documentation. These days it seems we don't have time for > > the checks and balances that make code maintainable and > > reliable. > > Where things really count (embedded, real-time systems) > those practices are still maintained. Although I will > say that recent CS grads with their "extreme programming" > and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on > board these days. If you think "extreme programming" is horse shit, then you don't understand what "extreme programming" is all about. Go read Kent Beck's book. Go read The Agile Manifesto. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 29 22:59:00 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 21:59:00 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: In article <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644 at hd2600xt6a04f7>, "TeoZ" writes: > From: "Bill Sudbrink" > > > [...] Consequently, we're hiring fewer and > > fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get > > their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older > > more experienced guys that have learned why good practices > > are important. > > Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with > that. In the past year I have interviewed more people than I have interviewed in the previous 30. (That's the difference between working for a company that is growing rapidly and one that's having layoffs.) I have interviewed both junior and senior engineers. The positions were for engineers that know C++ and Java. We have hired junior engineers and fewer senior engineers, simply because we have more implementation than design on our plate. Several of the senior people that I have interviewed have basically sat on their hands for 20-30 years and were amazingly ignorant of the current state of affairs in software engineering. In contrast, the junior engineers that we've hired were more experienced in things like agile development, automated testing and refactoring. If you're not spending time making yourself better, you'll cease being good. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 30 00:52:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 01:52:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: <50DFA203.1090408@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> <50DFA203.1090408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201212300652.BAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That's basically the crux of my question. I don't really need/want >> PMI memory, as the backplane I have doesn't support PMI as it's all >> Q22 ABAB. > Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper > from CPU to RAM. I'm fairly sure it does, fairly sure that PMI memory depends on having non-Qbus connections on the C-D half of its slot. There are two major reasons I think this: (1) I've seen it documented that way and never seen the contrary claimed, and (2) I can't imagine why DEC (of that era) would have built backplanes with two kinds of slots, with all the potential for error that entails, if there were no need for it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 30 00:57:14 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 01:57:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201212300657.BAA10954@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Although I will say that recent CS grads with their "extreme >> programming" and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on >> board these days. > If you think "extreme programming" is horse shit, then you don't > understand what "extreme programming" is all about. Agreed, though if your only exposure to it has been through the evangelizing of recent grads who only fractionally understand it, such misunderstanding is plausible. (There also are rare contexts where XP/agile is unnecessary or even harmful; no tool is suited to every task. But even if you have one of those contexts that doesn't make the whole paradigm crap, just inappropriate to that task.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 30 01:17:08 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 02:17:08 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> <50DFA203.1090408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50DFEA74.6090809@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/12/12 9:13 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 29 December 2012 21:08, Toby Thain wrote: >> Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper from CPU >> to RAM. >> > You're mistaking uVAX memory with PDP-11 memory. uVAXen have the > ribbon cables, and the CD slot. On the PDP-11 processors and RAM (and > QBUS to UNIBUS adapter -- KTJ11, I think it is called -- in the 84 and > 94) the PMI is all on only the CD slots of the board. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I've only seen MicroVAX PMI. Didn't know about the PDP-11 kind. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 30 01:22:59 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 02:22:59 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/12/12 11:50 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<50DB55D9.3010709 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> On 12/26/2012 11:30 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> >>> Seen on one of my Google groups >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ >> >> Sigh, it seems that nothing's changed in the last 50 or so years. Why >> anyone would want to write financial code in C++ is a little beyond me. > > Maybe you haven't looked at C++ in a while. Modern C++ is a single > language that can encompass many programming styles. > Except those styles enabled by real, designed-in garbage collection. There are reasons why most higher level languages use it. :) > The situation described in the article cited has nothing to do with > the programming language ... In particular, the Haskell example says nothing. One can make any language unreadable. But languages that force explicit, prolix attention to irrelevancies give that a head start (pace Alan Perlis). --Toby From hendrikvandewerken at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 19:29:37 2012 From: hendrikvandewerken at gmail.com (Hendrik van de Werken) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 02:29:37 +0100 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: <6E387D6A952A42FFA948E797D068E4EA@marthesp4> On 28 Dec 2012 20:02:21 Chuck wrote: >Maybe I've got the name wrong--perhaps it was called the EDB--it was a >display enhancement board added to the M24 and attached to the standard >controller that provided 16 colors per pixel (IIRC) in 640x400 hi-res mode. I see, I think you mean the EGC (Enhanced Graphic Color board). I never had an EGC board but I have the user guide of it. The board adds three bit planes to the one of the Indigeneous Card (IND), so it provides 16 color capability to the higher screen resolutions and it adds the flexibility of a color/shades of grey Look-Up Table (LUT) The video bit planes are laid out as folows: A0000h-A7FFFh Bit plane 0 (EGC) A8000h-AFFFFh Bit plane 1 (EGC) B0000h-B7FFFh Bit plane 2 (EGC) B8000h-BFFFFh Bit plane 3 (IND) The MDA card has the following memory layout: 4k of RAM at address 0B0000h for its display buffer. This address is not completely decoded; the entire 32k from 0B0000h to 0B7FFFh is filled with repeats of this 4k area. I/O addresses 03B0h-03BFh. As you see the memory of Bit Plane 1 overlays that of the MDA card completely. So I think it will cause serious problems. Are you familiar with the card? Do you have one? Greetings, Hendrik From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Sun Dec 30 01:27:15 2012 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 01:27:15 -0600 Subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question In-Reply-To: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1DF3B304-B25C-417A-8809-A1315A072F52@comcast.net> I have been trying to set up an HP 360 with a bad video card to use one of the HP web terminals (J3591A) by attaching it to the RS232 port that is in the Human Interface Board and I am able to connect, but I get back gibberish and it does not send anything remotely resembling a startup screen. I have previously setup and used the web terminal with an IBM B50, Itanium and PA-RISC workstations and servers of several kinds, so I am pretty sure that it should work in this application. I have been using the 360 service handbook to determine the dip switch settings (I think REMote enable was the only one that I needed to set) and the communication configurations (p124 states for some of the cards that can be used, but not what I am using... 8bits, no parity, single stop bit, 9600Baud and XON/XOFF enabled) I have not found a specific reference to using the Human interface card and whether or not it has similar configurations. Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings should be? Is there a special serial cable? I have used a standard one and the HP part that is supposed to work with various HP servers (although this looks to me like a case of incorrect settings) Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Chris From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 30 03:24:08 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 10:24:08 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 02:22:59 -0500 Toby Thain wrote: > > Maybe you haven't looked at C++ in a while. Modern C++ is a single > > language that can encompass many programming styles. > Except those styles enabled by real, designed-in garbage collection. > There are reasons why most higher level languages use it. :) I am very thankfull that C++ doesn't impose garbage collection on me, but gives me the choice to use it where apropriate. It is very disturbing to me that I can't use the RAII idiom in Java and have to work around this with try-catch-finally. So you get automatic memory management, but you have to manage your resources manualy. Thats awkward und cumbersome. And I surely don't want a garbage collector when programming C++ on a 8 bit microcontroler with a few dozen bytes of RAM... As allways: One size does not fit all. Different jobs need different tools. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 30 06:40:08 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 07:40:08 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:59 PM Subject: Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > > In article <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644 at hd2600xt6a04f7>, > "TeoZ" writes: > >> From: "Bill Sudbrink" >> >> > [...] Consequently, we're hiring fewer and >> > fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get >> > their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older >> > more experienced guys that have learned why good practices >> > are important. >> >> Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with >> that. > > In the past year I have interviewed more people than I have > interviewed in the previous 30. (That's the difference between > working for a company that is growing rapidly and one that's having > layoffs.) > > I have interviewed both junior and senior engineers. The positions > were for engineers that know C++ and Java. We have hired junior > engineers and fewer senior engineers, simply because we have more > implementation than design on our plate. Several of the senior people > that I have interviewed have basically sat on their hands for 20-30 > years and were amazingly ignorant of the current state of affairs in > software engineering. > > In contrast, the junior engineers that we've hired were more > experienced in things like agile development, automated testing > and refactoring. > > If you're not spending time making yourself better, > you'll cease being good. I think people cease being good when they just don't care about what they are doing anymore, its just a paycheck. People who have 20-30 years in any industry tend to be very good at their niche but they are also doing more paperwork and sitting in meetings then worrying about the current state of tools. New people come in with new ideas, older people have experience getting things done, and those in the middle get to figure out how to get things done with the new ideas. Once that process gets damaged from lack of new hiring, wholesale outsourcing, or just massive layoffs the system tends to screw up in costly ways. From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 08:56:51 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:56:51 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Mouse wrote: > > > > [W]hen we had problems like this we had to code up small runtime > > > routines to scan the memory space for what were JMP and JMP indirect > > > instructions in our Microdata 1621 object code to find out who was > > > connected to what. > > > > > Maybe if holme had such a routine he could run it and find the > > > runtime setup ones. > > > > Or throw grep at the text version of the disassaembly. > > > > My disassembler was originally written specifically to pick apart a > > captured malware binary, and it is most usable for jobs similar to > > that. It's not "this is the only tool you'll need", but in my > > experience it is a major help with such things - I used it for a Y2K > > consulting gig back when Y2K was an issue (someone had an x86 binary > > whose vendor no longer existed and found it had bugs). > > > > > Or maybe if one is lucky, the code you have at 0x04c8 is a table and > > > could just be dumped to continue the hunt. > > > > Looking at what's at 4c8, I think more likely r8 is a pointer to some > > kind of large state struct, with 4c8 an offset within that struct. > > > > I probably will not have the leisure to look at this all that much more > > anytime soon. There is a version of my disassembler up for anonymous > > FTP (probably at least a little out of date) and the current source is > > available for git clone; anyone who cares to is welcome to fetch it and > > take over. I really should update the FTPable copy.... > > > > ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/disas/src/ is the FTPable copy; the git > > repo is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. > > > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > I'm qouting from Roger Ivie (comp.sys.dec): > > I am currently holding the following documents in my grubby little > fingers: > > - Two copies of a rather hefty document titled "rtVAX 300 Hardware > Information Kit: Hardware User's Guide" (EK-382AB-UG-002). > - One copy of the depressingly slim "rtVAX 300 Hardware Information Kit: > Programmer's Guide" (EK-383AA-PG-001), which seems to be all about > writing VAXeln device drivers. > - One copy of the even slimmer "rtVAX 300 Release Notes" (EK-417AA-RN-001) > > According to Chapter 6 (Console and Boot ROM Interface): > > "The rtVAX 300 processor module does not contain an internal console > serial-line unit (SLU); however, 16 console registers are reserved in > the rtVAX 300 processor reserved space to select and program an external > Signetics 2681 console dual universal asynchronous receive/transmitter > (SCN 2681 DUART). These regosters occupy physical locations 201000000 to > 2010003F. The built-in firmware of the rtVAX 300 programs and > communicates with the external SCN 2681 DUART, which implements these > console registers." > > It then refers to table 3-13 for a list of the registers. That table > says: > > 20100000 Channel A mode registers (MRA1, MRA2) (R/W) > 20100004 Channel A status register (R) > Channel A clock select register (CSRA) (W) > 20100008 Reserved (R) > Channel A command register (CRA) > 2010000C Channel A receive holding register (RHRA) (R) > Channel A transmit holding register (THRA) (W) > 20100010 Input port change register (IPCR) (R) > Auxiliary control register (ACR) (W) > 20100014 Channel A/B interrupt status register (ISR) (R) > Channel A/B interrupt mask register (IMR) (W) > 20100018 Counter/timer interval register upper (CTU) (R) > Counter/timer interval register upper (CTUR) (W) > 2010001C Counter/timer interval register lower (CTL) (R) > Counter/timer interval register lower (CTLR) (W) > 20100020 Channel B mode register (MRB1, MRB2) (R/W) > 20100024 Channel B status register (SRB) (R) > Channel B clock select register (CSRB) (W) > 20100028 Reserved (R) > Channel B command register (CRB) (W) > 2010002C Channel B receive holding register (RHRB) (R) > Channel B transmit holding register (THRB) (W) > 20100030 Reserved (R/W) > 20100034 Input port register (R) > Output port configuration register (OPCR) (W) > 20100038 Start counter command register (R) > Set output port bits command register (W) > 2010003c Stop counter command register (R) > Reset output port bits commnad register (W) > > -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net > > ...so the SCN2681 seems to be the normal way to get some SLU's on a > rtVAX300 System and Dave should have one of them somwhere on his board > also. > > Test: > > >>> d/b 2010000C 41 > A > >>> d/b 2010000C 42 > B > >>> d/b 2010000C 43 > C > >>> > > :-) > > > Don't have much time the next days (mother in law is getting 60 today), > will test further after jan 1. > > > I wish you a happy new year... > > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- For those that are still interested, I've put threee images on my website that show what is insife the VAX Brick. http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-1.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-2.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-outside.jpg It is clear now, that the processor itself is containing some rom code, there are 4 pcs. of I28F512 EEPROMs which may contain the system startup- and console code, so the code of the EPROMs that I previously read out is pretty much useless, since it contains only the "End User Application" in this case VAXELN with the user programs. The serial Console drivers for sure are in the EEPROMs in that brick... Mouse, I've build your disass but since I know nothing about VAX Assembly lanuage (huh? What's that cmp3 and cmp5 ... what powerful machine instructions) im struggeling pretty much in the dark here.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 30 09:18:06 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 08:18:06 -0700 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-30 07:56, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > It is clear now, that the processor itself is containing some rom code, > there are 4 pcs. of I28F512 EEPROMs which may contain the system startup- > and console code, so the code of the EPROMs that I previously read out is > pretty much useless, since it contains only the "End User Application" in > this case VAXELN with the user programs. The serial Console drivers for > sure are in the EEPROMs in that brick... Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 30 09:37:45 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 08:37:45 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question In-Reply-To: <1DF3B304-B25C-417A-8809-A1315A072F52@comcast.net> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> <1DF3B304-B25C-417A-8809-A1315A072F52@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50E05FC9.10409@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-30 00:27, mls wrote: > > Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings should be? By coincidence, I had a 9000/300 here, which I didn't power up yet. But didn't have any problems with it at all. Used just the normal cables which were laying around here: Self-Test Mode Copyright 1990, Hewlett-Packard Company. All Rights Reserved. BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90 Bit Mapped Video MC68040 Processor Configuration EEPROM HP-HIL RESET To Restart Self-Test Mode HP-IB DMA-C0 Self-Test Mode RAM 16776900 Bytes HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 14 HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08000925E5A8 HP PARALLEL at 23 System Search Mode Cheers, emanuel From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 10:00:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:00:41 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> References: <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-12-30 07:56, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >It is clear now, that the processor itself is containing some rom code, > >there are 4 pcs. of I28F512 EEPROMs which may contain the system startup- > >and console code, so the code of the EPROMs that I previously read out is > >pretty much useless, since it contains only the "End User Application" in > >this case VAXELN with the user programs. The serial Console drivers for > >sure are in the EEPROMs in that brick... > > Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? No. How should I do this? The only way todo is reading them with the internal Console Software, but at first I had to know on wich Address a VAX is starting and if the MMU is mapping the ROM somewhere later ... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 30 10:43:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 11:43:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212161726.MAA11564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121216200743.GE6335@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212301643.LAA13406@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Mouse, I've build your disass but since I know nothing about VAX > Assembly lanuage (huh? What's that cmp3 and cmp5 ... what powerful > machine instructions) im struggeling pretty much in the dark here.. That's true, a disassembler isn't going to be much use unless you have some idea of the assembly language in question. And, yes, VAX assembly language is a relatively powerful one. I don't have a softcopy VAX assembly-langauge reference to point you at, but I have a dead-tree copy of the architecture reference manual, and the parts of it you're likely to care about are in my head as well, so I can answer individual questions easily enough. CMPC3 and CMPC5 aren't the worst of it. There's a lot of stuff that's always looked to me like COBOL support - instructions that, for example, do packed-decimal arithmetic. EDITPC is perhaps the most complex single instruction - it's an overstatement to call it "printf in an instruction", but not by all that much; CVTLP and EDITPC, with suitable operands of course, is the guts of printf's %d format. Originally this stuff was in microcode. But in more recent VAXen have taken to omitting them. Some of them (eg, the KA630) implement them as traps through the SCB, but not normal "unimplemented instruction" traps; I think (the memory is fuzzy) that the KA630 traps oddly: it not only uses a different vector, it runs in the mode of the trapping instruction rather than on the interrupt stack. AIUI, This is so that the kernel can contain a `macrocoded' implementation of the instruction without needing to simulate all the operand fetch/store steps (which are relatively complex on the VAX) to be sure to avoid being a memory-access security hole. I think CMPC3, and maybe CMPC5, are among the instructions done in hardware/microcode on even the more recent hardware, so they're usable from bootblock code. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 30 11:54:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 12:54:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212162050.PAA12315@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217080211.GA87326@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? > No. How should I do this? Are they socketed? > The only way todo is reading them with the internal Console Software, > but at first I had to know on wich Address a VAX is starting and if > the MMU is mapping the ROM somewhere later ... You _probably_ can read them with e/l/p from the console, with suitable addresses - I think that's how I dumped my KA630's ROM. The problem, of course, is determining the "suitable addresses". In the case of the KA630 I dealt with, the manual says: EK-KA630-UG-001 says, on page 3-2, that the ROM appears twice in physical address space (once at 20040000-2004FFFF and again at 20050000-2005FFFF). I seem to recall someone mentioning upthread that manual contents are known for the hardware in question; if you're lucky, they may have similar language. If not, you might be able to get somewhere by just scanning physical address space...you'd probably want to start with a probe every 32K or 64K or some such so you don't try doing billions of attempted accesses (which would get slow - even if done from software rather than the console, taking failure traps for most of them would be time-consuming). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 12:07:10 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 10:07:10 -0800 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but > the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct > slot(s). > In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103 > backplane which will not support PMI activation. > > Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the > M8190-AE > is placed into a VT103 backplane. > I remain skeptical that everything will just be fine if you place an M8190 KDJ11-B into a non-Q22/CD backplane. If you look at Table 2-9 (page 2-19) and Table 2-10 (page 2-20) in EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf, won't placing an M8190 into a non-C22/CD backplane essentially connect the CA1-CV1 signals in Table 2-10 straight through to the AA1-AV1 signals in Table 2-9, and same with the DA1-DV1 signals and the BA1-BV1 signals? That doesn't seem like something that would allow normal functioning. Also, it is clear from Table 2-10 that the PMI signals on the M8190 only exist on the top (component) side of the board and can only communicate over the PMI with memory boards physically located above the M8190. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 30 12:36:30 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:36:30 -0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212301643.LAA13406@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Mouse [mouse at rodents-montreal.org] wrote: > And, yes, VAX assembly language is a relatively powerful one. > I don't have a softcopy VAX assembly-langauge reference to > point you at, but I have a dead-tree copy of the architecture > reference manual, and the parts of it you're likely to care > about are in my head as well, so I can answer individual questions > easily enough. http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/4515/4515pro.html http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/ovms_73_vax_macr o_ref.pdf In particular, Chapter 9 of that second reference covers the instruction set. I'll admit I've not followed this too closely over Christmas, but I'm surprised that this (EK-382AB-UG-002) is not online: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,198 Holm, I have a copy to hand ... 1.42MB if you can accept emails of that size? The TOC has such entries as "resident Firmware Operation" and "Console Status Registers". The manual is "rtVAX 300 Hardware User's Guide". Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 12:53:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 10:53:37 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <6E387D6A952A42FFA948E797D068E4EA@marthesp4> References: <6E387D6A952A42FFA948E797D068E4EA@marthesp4> Message-ID: <50E08DB1.8030805@sydex.com> On 12/29/2012 05:29 PM, Hendrik van de Werken wrote: > I see, I think you mean the EGC (Enhanced Graphic Color board). I > never had an EGC board but I have the user guide of it. The board > adds three bit planes to the one of the Indigeneous Card (IND), so it > provides 16 color capability to the higher screen resolutions and it > adds the flexibility of a color/shades of grey Look-Up Table (LUT) We're both wrong--I broke down and went to the service manual. It's called the "Display Enhancement Board" or DEB. (See p. 4-80 in said manual). Sometimes an acronym just doesn't stick in the public consciousness. But the 6300's display capabilities for an early PC certainly outshine the IBM x86 offerings, as does the NEC APC. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 30 13:13:59 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:13:59 -0500 Subject: 50 years of Garbage collection - Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50E09277.4090903@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/12/12 4:24 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 02:22:59 -0500 > Toby Thain wrote: > >>> Maybe you haven't looked at C++ in a while. Modern C++ is a single >>> language that can encompass many programming styles. >> Except those styles enabled by real, designed-in garbage collection. >> There are reasons why most higher level languages use it. :) > I am very thankfull that C++ doesn't impose garbage collection on me, Of course we have many choices of which C++ is one. Nobody will take it away from you :) > but gives me the choice to use it where apropriate. It is very > disturbing to me that I can't use the RAII idiom in Java and have to > work around this with try-catch-finally. So you get automatic memory > management, but you have to manage your resources manualy. Thats > awkward und cumbersome. > > And I surely don't want a garbage collector when programming C++ on a > 8 bit microcontroler with a few dozen bytes of RAM... Of course, I didn't imply that *every* program should use garbage collection. (Though you might be interested in some of the research into Scheme systems in tiny microcontrollers...) I was referring to higher level languages which are appropriate for business/web/general problems. The existence of full garbage collection can offer many first order and higher order benefits there (for example, imagine managing object lifetimes given non trivial use of closures and closure environments). --T > > As allways: > One size does not fit all. > Different jobs need different tools. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 30 13:25:03 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:25:03 -0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <637C2D46155947D584E141934474E6E4@ANTONIOPC> > The manual is "rtVAX 300 Hardware User's Guide". I've sent a few copies to people who've asked for it. I've also put it up at: http://rapidshare.com/files/1542362390/RTVAX300.7z (archived with 7-zip, which hopefully is available to most people). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 13:25:37 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:25:37 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <201212301643.LAA13406@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121230192537.GA82836@beast.freibergnet.de> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Mouse [mouse at rodents-montreal.org] wrote: > > > > And, yes, VAX assembly language is a relatively powerful one. > > I don't have a softcopy VAX assembly-langauge reference to > > point you at, but I have a dead-tree copy of the architecture > > reference manual, and the parts of it you're likely to care > > about are in my head as well, so I can answer individual questions > > easily enough. > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/4515/4515pro.html > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/ovms_73_vax_macr > o_ref.pdf > > In particular, Chapter 9 of that second reference covers the instruction > set. > > I'll admit I've not followed this too closely over Christmas, but I'm > surprised that > this (EK-382AB-UG-002) is not online: > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,198 > > Holm, I have a copy to hand ... 1.42MB if you can accept emails of that > size? > > The TOC has such entries as "resident Firmware Operation" and "Console > Status Registers". > > The manual is "rtVAX 300 Hardware User's Guide". > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org > > Oh yes please, and I'm my own mailbox admin, that size shouldn't be a problem at all. ...does anybody know if the VAX ROM Monitor is using Ints for the the conio or is it (more likly) just polling the status regs? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 13:36:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:36:49 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >> Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? > > No. How should I do this? > > Are they socketed? > > > The only way todo is reading them with the internal Console Software, > > but at first I had to know on wich Address a VAX is starting and if > > the MMU is mapping the ROM somewhere later ... > > You _probably_ can read them with e/l/p from the console, with suitable > addresses - I think that's how I dumped my KA630's ROM. > > The problem, of course, is determining the "suitable addresses". In > the case of the KA630 I dealt with, the manual says: EK-KA630-UG-001 > says, on page 3-2, that the ROM appears twice in physical address space > (once at 20040000-2004FFFF and again at 20050000-2005FFFF). I seem to Fast Check: P 20040000 0004A531 P 20040004 09110002 P 20040008 6E6E6E6E P 2004000C 03020100 P 20040010 55555555 P 20040014 AAAAAAAA P 20040018 33333333 P 2004001C 00000000 P 20040020 200452B6 P 20040024 200452EF P 20040028 200452C2 P 2004002C 20045145 P 20040030 2004559C P 20040034 2004770C P 20040038 20045308 P 2004003C 00000000 P 20040040 2004539C P 20040044 200418AD P 20040048 2004C359 P 2004004C 20041881 P 20040050 2004539C P 20040054 20041887 P 20040058 2004E4A0 P 2004005C 20041890 P 20040060 2A2A2A2A P 20040064 2A2A2A2A P 20040068 2A2A2A2A P 2004006C 2A2A2A2A P 20040070 2A2A2A2A P 20040074 2A2A2A2A P 20040078 2A2A2A2A P 2004007C 2A2A2A2A P 20040080 2A2A2A2A P 20040084 2A2A2A2A P 20040088 2A2A2A2A P 2004008C 2A2A2A2A P 20040090 2A2A2A2A P 20040094 2A2A2A2A P 20040098 2A2A2A2A P 2004009C 2A2A2A2A P 200400A0 2A2A2A2A P 200400A4 2A2A2A2A P 200400A8 2A2A2A2A P 200400AC 092A0A0D P 200400B0 09090909 P 200400B4 09090909 ...at least here is something, but w/o knowing the machine code, I would say that this are some vectors, not code and that followed by some deadbeef. > recall someone mentioning upthread that manual contents are known for > the hardware in question; if you're lucky, they may have similar > language. If not, you might be able to get somewhere by just scanning > physical address space...you'd probably want to start with a probe > every 32K or 64K or some such so you don't try doing billions of > attempted accesses (which would get slow - even if done from software > rather than the console, taking failure traps for most of them would be > time-consuming). > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I'm courious what that hardware manual tell to us.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 13:37:46 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:37:46 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <637C2D46155947D584E141934474E6E4@ANTONIOPC> References: <637C2D46155947D584E141934474E6E4@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <20121230193746.GB12759@beast.freibergnet.de> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > The manual is "rtVAX 300 Hardware User's Guide". > > I've sent a few copies to people who've asked for it. > > I've also put it up at: > > http://rapidshare.com/files/1542362390/RTVAX300.7z > > (archived with 7-zip, which hopefully is available to most people). > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org > If you agree I can put that on my server, traffic is not of any concern... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 30 13:43:56 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:43:56 -0000 Subject: Setting up a DMC11 on TOPS-10 Message-ID: <035f01cde6c6$031a70f0$094f52d0$@ntlworld.com> Some work is being done to get a DMC11 emulation into the SIMH PDP10 emulator. I would like to get DECnet running on TOPS-10 over the DMC11, but I have absolutely no idea where to begin, I only ever used TOPS-20 and never with DECnet and never did any admin things on it anyway. Can anyone offer any pointers on how to get started? Before anyone asks, I understand that TOPS-10 uses the DMR11, but this is so similar to the DMC11 that it may not notice the difference or I can fix the emulation for the minor differences. Thanks Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 13:48:51 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:48:51 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121230194851.GA17019@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >> Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? > > No. How should I do this? > > Are they socketed? He Mouse, you don't read my postings careful enough :-) Again for you: http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-1.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-2.jpg http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-outside.jpg Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 30 14:32:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:32:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212302032.PAA14643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [KA630] (once at 20040000-2004FFFF and again at 20050000-2005FFFF). > Fast Check: > P 20040000 0004A531 > P 20040004 09110002 > [...] Okay, as you say, there's clearly something there. It's moderately likely to be where the ROM lives on your machine. As a first tentative guess, I would start picking this apart assuming the CPU starts executing it at 2004a531. If you can dump the whole thing (you might be able to do binary search to figure out how large it is) someone can probably disassemble it. If you aren't up to converting it to binary, I could take a big blob of text capture from something like "e/l/p/n:3fff 20040000" (or whatever n: value gives you the correct amount for its size) and convert it to a binary file easily enough. I might even have the time to do some preliminary investigation, though I can't really promise anything there. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 30 14:38:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:38:47 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even sloppier code than they write in C++. They think that garbage collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider the resource consequences of their implementation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 30 14:44:25 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:44:25 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DB69C4.6010603@gmail.com> <03ba01cde440$cf014820$6d03d860$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: In article , "TeoZ" writes: > I think people cease being good when they just don't care about what they > are doing anymore, its just a paycheck. I agree and I have seen this attitude in people fresh out of college as well as people who have been in industry a long time (and have always had that attitude). We don't hire people with that attitude. > People who have 20-30 years in any > industry tend to be very good at their niche but they are also doing more > paperwork and sitting in meetings then worrying about the current state of > tools. Odd. I've been paid to write software for about 35 years and I don't find this to be true of myself or of my colleagues who have similar amounts of time writing code. However, there is a point where if you want your salary to continue rising, you have to stop writing code and become a manager. I think that is the thing that takes you out of the loop when it comes to good practice in writing software. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you're not deluding yourself as a manager that you are still on the cutting technical edge of current practice. My manager, regularly defers to the team on technical issues and concentrates more on the business resource allocation problems. Getting back to the problems described in the register article, I invite all of you to go watch Brian Foote's google tech talk video on the "Big Ball of Mud". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 14:46:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:46:48 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> On 12/30/2012 03:38 PM, Richard wrote: > Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even > sloppier code than they write in C++. ...and that's saying something! > They think that garbage > collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider > the resource consequences of their implementation. Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff like managing our own memory anymore!" Morons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 30 14:55:00 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:55:00 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50E0AA24.1080203@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/12/12 3:38 PM, Richard wrote: > Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even > sloppier code than they write in C++. They think that garbage > collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider > the resource consequences of their implementation. Maybe some do, but we wouldn't want to generalise. The point I was making is that pervasive gc makes new patterns and techniques possible (per McCarthy et al). --T From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 30 14:53:54 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:53:54 +0100 Subject: 50 years of Garbage collection - Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E09277.4090903@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E09277.4090903@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121230215354.67c6b61c2150f903e3603ca4@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:13:59 -0500 Toby Thain wrote: > Of course, I didn't imply that *every* program should use garbage > collection. Sure. But there are languages that don't leave this decision to the programmer. C++ does. > (Though you might be interested in some of the research into > Scheme systems in tiny microcontrollers...) Scheme is new to me. But I know of Java, JavaScript and Lua implementations, all garbage collected, for micorcontolers. Though, most of them are to big for many 8-bitters. > I was referring to higher level languages which are appropriate for > business/web/general problems. \begin{advocatus diaboli} So C++ is no higher level language and is not appropriate for general problems? ;-) \end{advocatus diaboli} > The existence of full garbage collection > can offer many first order and higher order benefits there (for example, > imagine managing object lifetimes given non trivial use of closures and > closure environments). I use closures / lambdas in C++11 extensively - without garbage collection and without memory management problems. I just use simple RAII to manage memory, i.e. "smart pointers". Though, you can call smart pointers a primitive and crude way of garbage collection. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 30 15:06:38 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:06:38 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E0ACDE.1010705@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/12/12 3:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/30/2012 03:38 PM, Richard wrote: >> Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even >> sloppier code than they write in C++. > > ...and that's saying something! Well, there is an analogous group of programmers who may not get the details of memory management in C++ perfectly right 100% of the time either... Competence really is orthogonal to language. --T > >> They think that garbage >> collection is a silver bullet From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 30 15:18:11 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:18:11 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work Message-ID: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. At the moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I can format it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and TEST 71 commands fail on it, unable to determine the type of disk. There are some jumpers for which I have found some documentation here: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB-5-25-HH-MFM-S T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure what settings the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor termination pack. Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to work in a 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? Thanks Rob From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 15:23:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:23:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tektronix TC-2000 on eBay Message-ID: <1356902622.27825.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> it's either dead broke or suffering from oxidation/microbial issues. Not worth 120$ to me, but if you're interested perhaps you can talk them down (considerably). Mine was delivered working, but after I pulled it out of storage it exhibited the same behavior as that. Fairly rare, but they turn up. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 15:30:12 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:30:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50E08DB1.8030805@sydex.com> References: <6E387D6A952A42FFA948E797D068E4EA@marthesp4> <50E08DB1.8030805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1356903012.40586.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis We're both wrong--I broke down and went to the service manual.? It's called the "Display Enhancement Board"? or DEB.? (See p. 4-80 in said manual). C: Where are you getting this from? I don't see it googling. Does it contain artwork for the DEB board? From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 30 15:35:24 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:35:24 +0100 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E0B39C.7030002@update.uu.se> On 2012-12-30 19:00, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 29 December 2012 21:08, Toby Thain wrote: >> >Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper from CPU >> >to RAM. >> > > You're mistaking uVAX memory with PDP-11 memory. uVAXen have the > ribbon cables, and the CD slot. On the PDP-11 processors and RAM (and > QBUS to UNIBUS adapter -- KTJ11, I think it is called -- in the 84 and > 94) the PMI is all on only the CD slots of the board. Correct, PMI memory on PDP-11 machines is just communicating on the CD slots. No ribbon cables. However, I'd like to point out that the 11/83 also can use PMI memory. The thing to understand is that for the memory to be connected on the PMI, it needs to set *before* the CPU on the Qbus, and be PMI capable. The same memory placed *after* the CPU means it acts as normal Qbus memory. Some difference in performance. When sitting in the 11/84, the memory sits after the CPU, but all the first four slots are PMI slots in that box, always. Actually, PMI is also not only on the CD slots. A few signals in the AB slots are working differently than in a Qbus as well. And to point out one last, obvious thing, the PMI on the VAX is a bus, even through it's on a ribbon cable. Why would that make it not a bus? Johnny From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 15:37:12 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:37:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356903012.40586.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <6E387D6A952A42FFA948E797D068E4EA@marthesp4> <50E08DB1.8030805@sydex.com> <1356903012.40586.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356903432.46198.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> C: Where are you getting this from? I don't see it googling. Does it contain artwork for the DEB board? NM NM NM. Does anyone have one though? Does it simply add memory to the display board? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 15:40:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a keyboard for a Tektronix TC-2000 Message-ID: <1356903611.26617.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> identifiable by the dial on the right side (jog dial?). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 15:54:50 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 13:54:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a keyboard for a Tektronix Prism 3002x anaylyzer Message-ID: <1356904490.12445.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the 'x' denotes subsets, such as 3002P, etc. From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 30 16:00:09 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:00:09 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212302032.PAA14643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212302032.PAA14643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121230220009.GB18262@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >> [KA630] (once at 20040000-2004FFFF and again at 20050000-2005FFFF). > > > Fast Check: > > > P 20040000 0004A531 > > P 20040004 09110002 > > [...] > > Okay, as you say, there's clearly something there. It's moderately > likely to be where the ROM lives on your machine. > > As a first tentative guess, I would start picking this apart assuming > the CPU starts executing it at 2004a531. If you can dump the whole > thing (you might be able to do binary search to figure out how large it > is) someone can probably disassemble it. If you aren't up to > converting it to binary, I could take a big blob of text capture from > something like "e/l/p/n:3fff 20040000" (or whatever n: value gives you > the correct amount for its size) and convert it to a binary file easily > enough. I might even have the time to do some preliminary > investigation, though I can't really promise anything there. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B A quick view in the manual Anonio sent me provides much of information, even the memory map of an rtVAX300 System, desription of the VM System (full featured VAX as it sounds), the Ethernet controller and alt least a part of the surrounding hardware that's needed to run a minimal system. Naturally there is no info about the four (?) Altera PLA's that are on the board, hope I can get some infos about this from the company that made the board. I'll do 2 things next: 1. Read out the roms (you will get a binary) 2. I'll compress some of the infos from the manual for you. (..and provide it here). .. I'll put up a copy of the manual to my webserver if I get Antonio's permission. Good night for now, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 16:11:26 2012 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:11:26 +0000 Subject: Dead Intel MDS Message-ID: Hi, I have managed to get around to having a look at this machine. It is a model 231. I am getting nothing on the screen and no beeps when in diagnostic mode. The PSU is on and the fans are running. I have checked the schematics and the voltage is correct on all pins coming out of the supply and there is voltage going into the screen. The screen is not 'firing' up as I would expect. I am not an expert on CRT's Anyone know anything about these machines or how to proceed. I have found online service manuals for the screen and machine as well as full schematics for both. Thanks Dan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 30 16:19:06 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:19:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230220009.GB18262@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212302032.PAA14643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230220009.GB18262@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201212302219.RAA15412@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 1. Read out the roms (you will get a binary) > 2. I'll compress some of the infos from the manual for you. (..and > provide it here). I'll be looking forward to those! > I'll put up a copy of the manual to my webserver if I get Antonio's > permission. I'd be interested in getting a copy in any case. Those pictures make this look like really cute hardware.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Dec 30 16:28:55 2012 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:28:55 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2012-12-30 20:36:49 +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Mouse wrote: > > > >> Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? > > > No. How should I do this? > > > > Are they socketed? > > > > > The only way todo is reading them with the internal Console Software, > > > but at first I had to know on wich Address a VAX is starting and if > > > the MMU is mapping the ROM somewhere later ... > > > > You _probably_ can read them with e/l/p from the console, with suitable > > addresses - I think that's how I dumped my KA630's ROM. > > > > The problem, of course, is determining the "suitable addresses". In > > the case of the KA630 I dealt with, the manual says: EK-KA630-UG-001 > > says, on page 3-2, that the ROM appears twice in physical address space > > (once at 20040000-2004FFFF and again at 20050000-2005FFFF). I seem to > > Fast Check: > > P 20040000 0004A531 > P 20040004 09110002 > P 20040008 6E6E6E6E > P 2004000C 03020100 > P 20040010 55555555 > P 20040014 AAAAAAAA > P 20040018 33333333 This is the start of the system ROM, as used with the usual 3100 / 4000 class of machines. My reading of this (I've dumped a good number of ROMs) is that the firmware is provided by four ROMs, each supplying one byte of a longword. [...] > ...at least here is something, but w/o knowing the machine code, I would > say that this are some vectors, not code and that followed by some > deadbeef. You usually have some header, containing a JMP to the ROM's actual start address. These ROMs are usually 64, 128, 256 or 512KB. Usually, the last part of the ROM isn't used (and thus filled with all-0x00 or all-0xff), except the very last four bytes, which often hold a checksum. That way, it's quite easy finding the correct length. Just jump the contents of the supposed end addresses and see if it's all zeroes (except a 4-byte checksum that's probably there.) I'd be _highly_ interested in getting a ROM dump! I once wrote a firmware dumper helper, that reads the ROM byte-by-byte (slow using a serial link, but it works.) You can find it at http://vax-linux.org/gitweb/?p=firmware_dumper.git;a=summary For a VAX, you probably need to start it like this: $ ./dumper --target vax --device /dev/ttyS0 --speed 9600 --bits 8 \ --parity N --stop 1 --outfile rtVAX300.bin --start 0x20040000 \ --len 524288 --scheme 3 MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Fortschritt bedeutet, einen Schritt so zu machen, the second : da? man den n?chsten auch noch machen kann. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 30 16:31:22 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:31:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 30, 12 03:46:48 pm" Message-ID: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> > > They think that garbage > > collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider > > the resource consequences of their implementation. > > Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff > like managing our own memory anymore!" sbrk() or GTFO -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LDA #TXT:JMP $AB1E:TXT .asc "just another c64 hacker":.byt 0d00 - From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 16:31:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:31:30 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201212302219.RAA15412@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212302032.PAA14643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230220009.GB18262@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212302219.RAA15412@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50E0C0C2.3070604@neurotica.com> On 12/30/2012 05:19 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I'll put up a copy of the manual to my webserver if I get Antonio's >> permission. > > I'd be interested in getting a copy in any case. Those pictures make > this look like really cute hardware.... It's REALLY neat hardware. I am in a busy time at work right now, otherwise I'd love to be in the thick of this effort. Holm, I'll go look at mine soon to answer your question about the 2681, but I expect that I will indeed find one on my board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 16:45:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:45:24 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356903432.46198.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <6E387D6A952A42FFA948E797D068E4EA@marthesp4> <50E08DB1.8030805@sydex.com> <1356903012.40586.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1356903432.46198.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50E0C404.6090808@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 01:37 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > C: Where are you getting this from? I don't see it googling. Does it contain artwork for the DEB board? > > NM NM NM. Does anyone have one though? Does it simply add memory to the display board? I've concluded that I must have a differnt Google (my own "Cole Porter", if you will permit a Python allusion) than everyone else: http://m24.museodelcomputer.org/site/doc.html Enjoy, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 30 16:51:27 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:51:27 -0700 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50E0C56F.1060503@brouhaha.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well, when I worked at DEC in the terminals group in fact they used WD40's > penetrating qualities to un-clog print heads before a quick wash in a > solvent. > The "quick wash in a solvent" is the key thing. WD-40 by itself will leave a residue that gums up the printhead. A solvent is needed to remove that residue. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 30 16:49:33 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:49:33 +0100 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E0C4FD.7000307@update.uu.se> On 2012-12-30 23:00, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> > >> >So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but >> >the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct >> >slot(s). >> >In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103 >> >backplane which will not support PMI activation. >> > >> >Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the >> >M8190-AE >> >is placed into a VT103 backplane. >> > > I remain skeptical that everything will just be fine if you place an > M8190 KDJ11-B into a non-Q22/CD backplane. > > If you look at Table 2-9 (page 2-19) and Table 2-10 (page 2-20) in > EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf, won't placing an M8190 into a > non-C22/CD backplane essentially connect the CA1-CV1 signals in Table > 2-10 straight through to the AA1-AV1 signals in Table 2-9, and same > with the DA1-DV1 signals and the BA1-BV1 signals? That doesn't seem > like something that would allow normal functioning. I think you are right, Glen. The M8190 is intended to sit in a Q-CD slot, not a Q-Q. I'd surprised if it works. However, if you ever want to put an M8190 in a VT103 you need to rewire the backplane anyway, as the VT103 backplane don't even do Q22 if I remember right. > Also, it is clear from Table 2-10 that the PMI signals on the M8190 > only exist on the top (component) side of the board and can only > communicate over the PMI with memory boards physically located above > the M8190. Correct. The PMI memory for PDP-11s work in both Q-CD slots and PMI slots, but they only perform as PMI memory if they sit above the CPU in a Qbus backplane. I'm not sure the PMI memory boards would work in Q-Q slots either... Johnny From dmabry at mich.com Sun Dec 30 16:54:23 2012 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:54:23 -0500 Subject: Dead Intel MDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E0C61F.7080403@mich.com> Dan Williams said the following on 12/30/2012 5:11 PM: > Hi, > > I have managed to get around to having a look at this machine. It is a > model 231. > > I am getting nothing on the screen and no beeps when in diagnostic mode. > > The PSU is on and the fans are running. I have checked the schematics and > the voltage is correct on all pins coming out of the supply and there is > voltage going into the screen. > > The screen is not 'firing' up as I would expect. I am not an expert on CRT's > > Anyone know anything about these machines or how to proceed. I have found > online service manuals for the screen and machine as well as full > schematics for both. > > > Thanks > > Dan > > Hello Dan, One of the first things to look at is to see if the IOC (the back panel board) is running. If you don't get any beeps when the three-position switch is in diagnostic, that's a bad sign for that board. If you turn up the intensity on the crt with the pot on the back panel, can you see if there is a raster? If there is, that means that, at least, the crt controller chip on the IOC board has been initialized. I have found that the edge connectors on the interconnect cables are notorious for bad connections. Clean the edges on the boards and check the connectors for corrosion and tightness. Dave From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Dec 30 16:59:39 2012 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:59:39 -0600 Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair Message-ID: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> I have two Model F keyboards (original PC or XT) that have gone bad due to an intermittent connection in the DIN connector. I'm not sure how these were originally assembled, but in the mode of failure that I have the pins (embedded in the round black plastic that spaces them) come out of the rubber sleeve. Pressing tightly restores connection for a little bit, but it is not really usable that way. Finding the DIN plug is not a problem. But I really don't want to hack off the end of the cable with the nice molded IBM plug. These are not museum pieces, but I'd like the repair to be unobtrusive. Has anybody else run into this problem and attempted a fix? I'm also open to just replacing the cord entirely, but I doubt that there is a surplus of originals laying around anywhere. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 17:04:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:04:19 -0800 Subject: Dead Intel MDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E0C873.20901@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 02:11 PM, Dan Williams wrote: > Anyone know anything about these machines or how to proceed. I have found > online service manuals for the screen and machine as well as full > schematics for both. There's a ton of documentation on the Series 200 MDS on bitsavers, so I'd start there. But back in the day, I used a Series 200 with a standard serial terminal (i.e. not the Intel CRT+Keyboard), so I imagine that a good start might be to hook a terminal (emulated or otherwise) to the MDS and see what happens. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 17:07:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:07:15 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E0C923.8020105@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 12:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff > like managing our own memory anymore!" Are we discussing "coding" or "programming"? In my mind, they're very different disciplines. But then, I'm old. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 30 17:28:27 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:28:27 -0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230193746.GB12759@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <1D948940877E4D53813F7F0DB71999A0@ANTONIOPC> > If you agree I can put that on my server, traffic is not of > any concern... I've no problem with that at all. Regards, Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 17:32:15 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1356910335.58349.YahooMailClassic@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/30/12, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Has anybody else run into this problem and attempted a > fix?? Yes, I ran into this exact problem a couple of years ago. And I just cut the plug off and soldered a new one on. Sure, I lost the pretty IBM molded plug, but, now I have a keyboard that works. A keyboard that doesn't work is useless. And it's not like IBM keyboards are rare or anything. I don't know if you're going to be able to fix this without doing the same or similar. The problem is that the wires have broken free from the pins, and there is no way that I know of to disassemble the connector without destroying it. Unless you can somehow get really creative with a heat gun? I've disassembled molded plugs before, but it always involved cutting the housing apart, then replacing the removed housing with something standard (i.e. a molded 13W3, cut off/heat gunned from it's housing, fitted into a standard one after re-use) Another thing I've done in the past was really for replacing broken off pins, but you can drill a hole down into the connector and really ram something down in there - in my case, it was a custom mini-DIN on a set of amplified speakers. I drilled a tiny hole next to the broken stub of the pin, and heated a straight pin and jammed it into there with pliers. Once clipped flush with the other pins, the repair worked just fine for years. Perhaps, if only one pin is intermittent (use your meter to check), you could do something similar? No idea if this would help in this situation, since I think the problem is the connection at the back of the pin itself, and if you pull out the old pin, I don't know what, if anything, would be available to connect to. -Ian From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 30 17:43:38 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:43:38 -0700 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. At the > moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I can format > it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and TEST 71 commands fail > on it, unable to determine the type of disk. There are some jumpers for > which I have found some documentation here: > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB-5-25-HH-MFM-S > T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure what settings > the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor termination pack. > > Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to work in a > 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of the cable. And it should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was used on a different system. Is it labeled as a rd31? Probably you have to do a real low level format, entering all the right parameters in the TEST70 yourself ... From mmaginnis at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 17:54:01 2012 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:54:01 -0700 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Win, It sound like the floppy you created from the image is good -- usually you get the immediate "Retry" message if the III can't recognize the disk at all. As long as you used the CFFA to create the disk from the image, just as you would an Apple II disk, it should work. >From what I've experienced, what you're seeing is usually (but not always) one of two things: 1) The disk image you used to create the image has a driver installed for a piece of hardware that isn't present in your system (i.e, a ProFile drive) and SOS has loaded the driver and is waiting for the peripheral to respond. SOS is supposed to be smart enough to realize that hardware isn't there and move on with the loading process, but it doesn't always work that way. or 2) your drive needs to be adjusted. I have about two dozen Disk III drives and every single one of them required a speed adjustment before they would work when I acquired them. LMK if you need the procedures for that. - Mike On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:01 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Mike, > > I read the relevant chapters and have a bit better understanding of the > Apple III...I think. I tried making an SOS disk today using my Apple IIe > and the CFFA3000 with some Apple III dsk images i found online. I used > ProDOS and was able to format the floppy and it appeared to copy the image > onto the floppy. At least it said it was successful, but when I tried > booting the III with it, the drive spun for about 3 seconds and then > stopped and nothing else happened...nothing on the display. Should it work > to copy a floppy like this using ProDOS on a IIe for use on a III? Is > there another utility that would be better suited to copy the disk? > > Thanks, > Win > > Unlike the II, which is relatively easy to configure to boot to any > (bootable) storage device in nearly any slot, the Apple III tries to > boot only from the internal floppy drive, and as Eric pointed out, > you'd have to roll your own ROM to change that behavior. The CFFA3000 > works nicely in the III, but you lose the Drive ][ emulation > capability and you can't boot directly to it. > > In the Apple III, everything is seen as a device and requires a driver > that SOS loads as it boots in order to be accessible to the system > during operation. You can't (easily) boot directly to the CFFA because > SOS requires a driver to be able to recognize it. Fortunately, SOS is > close enough to ProDOS that you can use the CFFA in an Apple II to > create floppies from the images you downloaded. > > I'd suggest reading this PDF for more on how the III works: > > http;//apple2scans.net/scans/manuals/3rd.party/OMHGYA3.pdf > > It's the Osborne McGraw Hill Guide To Your Apply III. Pay special > attention to Chapters 3 and 4. > > LMK if you have any questions about all this. > > - Mike From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:00:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:00:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 2:45 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/30/2012 01:37 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> >> C: Where are you getting this from? I don't see it googling. Does it contain artwork for the DEB board? >> >> NM NM NM. Does anyone have one though? Does it simply add memory to the display board? > >I've concluded that I must have a differnt Google (my own "Cole Porter", >if you will permit a Python allusion) than everyone else: > >http://m24.museodelcomputer.org/site/doc.html > >Enjoy, >Chuck > > did you stop to think what "NM" meant? IOW I found it. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Dec 30 18:09:26 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:09:26 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50E0D7B6.3070008@compsys.to> >Glen Slick wrote: >>On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but >>the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct >>slot(s). >>In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103 >>backplane which will not support PMI activation. >> >>Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the >>M8190-AE >>is placed into a VT103 backplane. >> >I remain skeptical that everything will just be fine if you place an >M8190 KDJ11-B into a non-Q22/CD backplane. > > Been there - Done that! However, there are many different non-Q22/CD backplanes. There are also many Q22 ABAB backplanes. If you are starting with a 16 bit backplane and a PDP-11/03, then DEFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT attempt to use a PDP-11/23 or a PDP-11/73. The PDP-11/03 has (if I remember correctly) extra power points in the backplane. However, if you are starting with a system which is already running even a dual PDP-11/23 or a dual PDP-11/73 such as the VT103, then my actual experience is that there will not be a problem and the VT103 backplane can easily be upgrade from 18 bits to 22 bits with the required documentation and someone with almost no experience with a soldering iron. It is not trivial, but Tony Duell could probably do it while sleeping. I have also heard of someone upgrading the first two slots of the VT103 to be ABCD and installing a MVII. I do not have the details and have no idea what needs to be done or where to find the details. >If you look at Table 2-9 (page 2-19) and Table 2-10 (page 2-20) in >EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf, won't placing an M8190 into a >non-C22/CD backplane essentially connect the CA1-CV1 signals in Table >2-10 straight through to the AA1-AV1 signals in Table 2-9, and same >with the DA1-DV1 signals and the BA1-BV1 signals? That doesn't seem >like something that would allow normal functioning. > >Also, it is clear from Table 2-10 that the PMI signals on the M8190 >only exist on the top (component) side of the board and can only >communicate over the PMI with memory boards physically located above >the M8190. > With regard to the DEC manual, I agree that as stated, it is CORRECT!!!! What is missing is a discussion of other configurations. To make sure we are all discussing the same thing: M8190-AA is a KDJ11-BA with a 15 MHz crystal M8190-AB is a KDJ11-BB with a 15 MHz crystal M8190-AC is a KDJ11-BC with a 15 MHz crystal and the FPU chip M8190-AE is a KDJ11-BF with an 18 Mhz crystal and the FPU chip I will state again: I have placed an M8190-AA board in the VT103 backplane in the first slot and a 4 MB memory board in the second quad slot. The third quad slot was a quad EDSI disk controller and the fourth quad slot was a DHV11. The backplane was originally 18 bit, but was upgraded to 22 bit by soldering 4 wires to 8 points each on the backplane, one for each of the dual AB locations which are available via a solder connection which was previously left available but hanging. SORRY - lead based solder is required since the original backplane used, at the time, lead based solder. Wire wrap wire was used and the insulation was left on between the solder joints. The VT103 has a 4 slot ABAB serpentine backplane since I have also connected 8 dual boards to that same backplane such as an M8192 and an M8043. The manual that you have copied a portion of is CORRECT. If you place a quad M8190 board (all M8190 boards as far as I know including the M8190-AA) in the third slot of a BA23 and place 2 * 2 MB PMI quad memory boards in slots one and two (the first three slots of a BA23 are ABCD), then RT-11 will report that the CPU is a PDP-11/83 with 4 MB of PMI memory. If you place the M8190 in slot one and the PMI boards in slots two and three, then RT-11 will say NOT say PMI memory is present. What I did not do (since I did not have an M8190-AE to test at the time) was place an M8190-AE into the VT103 backplane. However, I would have at the time since I did not know any better and I am confident that if I had access to all of the stuff needed to test the VT103 that I could do so now. But, since I have not done it yet, I can't state with 100% confidence that the magic smoke would not be released. By the way, some benchmarks I did might be of interest. The M8190-AE boards configured with PMI activated memory is about 33% faster than an M8190-AA board without PMI activated memory. An M8190-AE board without the PMI memory activated is about 13% faster than an M8190-AA board without PMI activated memory. An M8190-AA board (with the 15 Mhz crystal) with PMI activated memory is about 20% faster than an M8190-AA without PMI activated memory. This means that about 60% of the speed improvement of the M8190-AE with PMI activated memory is due to the use of PMI activated memory. The other 40% of the speed increase is due to the 18 MHz crystal vs the 15 MHz crystal. I caution that this was RT-11 running only a single job (specifically BINCOM which compares blocks of a file). For the file, I substituted the VM: device and compared about 7000 blocks with itself, thereby eliminating any disk I/O. Since ONLY the CPU was involved, I felt that the test was a very good rough approximation to the overall CPU speed. The time was measured to the nearest 1/60 of a second, so anyone can easily repeat the test. I know that the above information can be verified. If anyone has access to these boards and can check the electrical connections and the difference between ABAB and ABCD, I suspect that it will be possible to verify that the M8190-AE is different from the M8190-AB only in the 18 Mhz crystal (and the different revs of the CPU plus the extra FPU chip). Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 18:10:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:10:51 -0500 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DBCC670-D4B7-4E7E-A9C6-69554C0001CB@neurotica.com> On Dec 30, 2012, at 7:00 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 2:45 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/30/2012 01:37 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> >>> C: Where are you getting this from? I don't see it googling. Does it contain artwork for the DEB board? >>> >>> NM NM NM. Does anyone have one though? Does it simply add memory to the display board? >> >> I've concluded that I must have a differnt Google (my own "Cole Porter", >> if you will permit a Python allusion) than everyone else: >> >> http://m24.museodelcomputer.org/site/doc.html >> > did you stop to think what "NM" meant? IOW I found it. You know...sometimes unnecessary abbreviation is not a good thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 18:12:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:12:47 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> On Dec 30, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> They think that garbage >>> collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider >>> the resource consequences of their implementation. >> >> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff >> like managing our own memory anymore!" > > sbrk() or GTFO Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:13:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:13:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods Message-ID: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> is there such thing as a db-9 hood with a bore as large as a db-25 or more specifically a db-23? Or what about a grommet to take up the slack in the larger hood? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Dec 30 18:15:45 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:15:45 -0500 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> >emanuel stiebler wrote: > >On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. >> At the >> moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I can >> format >> it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and TEST 71 >> commands fail >> on it, unable to determine the type of disk. There are some jumpers for >> which I have found some documentation here: >> http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB-5-25-HH-MFM-S >> >> T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure what >> settings >> the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor termination pack. >> >> Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to work >> in a >> 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? > > AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of the > cable. And it should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was used on > a different system. Is it labeled as a rd31? Probably you have to do a > real low level format, entering all the right parameters in the TEST70 > yourself . Whenever I have used any RD5n or RD3n drive with the RQDX3 controller on the PDP-11, the drive always had be be DS3. I don't know if the MSCP controller is built into the MicroVAX 2000, but I suspect that DS3 is so standard with DEC that all MSCP RD3n drives must be DS3 in a DEC system. Jerome Fine From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 30 18:47:07 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:47:07 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <037001cde6f0$5d7216f0$185644d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > Sent: 30 December 2012 23:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. At > > the moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I > > can format it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and TEST > > 71 commands fail on it, unable to determine the type of disk. There > > are some jumpers for which I have found some documentation here: > > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB-5-25- > HH > > -MFM-S T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure > > what settings the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor > > termination pack. > > > > Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to work > > in a 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? > > AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of the cable. And it > should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was used on a different system. Is > it labeled as a rd31? Probably you have to do a real low level format, > entering all the right parameters in the TEST70 yourself ... It is not labelled RD31 and may have been used in a completely different system, probably a PC. I am happy to enter all the TEST 70 parameters (found a link for this), but it does not prompt me, it gives an error and then just exits the test. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 30 18:53:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121230165206.V89729@shell.lmi.net> > >> NM NM NM. Does anyone have one though? Does it simply add memory to the display board? > >I've concluded that I must have a differnt Google (my own "Cole Porter", > >if you will permit a Python allusion) than everyone else: > >http://m24.museodelcomputer.org/site/doc.html On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > did you stop to think what "NM" meant? IOW I found it. Non-Maskable. [interrupts] New Mexico??!? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 18:54:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:54:37 -0800 Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50E0E24D.8070009@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 04:00 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > did you stop to think what "NM" meant? IOW I found it. Nuclear Medicine? Network Module? New Millenium? Net Meeting? No Mercy? I figured that if it were a "never mind", that you wouldn't have gone to the trouble of sending the message.... Silly me. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 30 19:03:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:03:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > is there such thing as a db-9 hood with a bore as large as a db-25 or > more specifically a db-23? Or what about a grommet to take up the slack > in the larger hood? A DB-9 IS EXACTLY the same hood as a DB-25. That is what 'B' means. 'D' is the shape, 'B' is the size, 9 or 25 is number of pins. Did you perhaps mean a DE-9? 'E' size is used for 2 row 9 pin, and for 3 row 15 pin. Without the size letter, how would we tell the difference between a DA-15 and a DE-15? I have some DB-9s, they have space for 25 pins, but only have pins in positions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 20 The D-23 doesn't have a size letter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 30 19:14:43 2012 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 01:14:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor Message-ID: <1356916483.78245.ymail_j2me@web171604.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> --- On Monday, December 31, 2012 1:04 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> NM NM NM. Does anyone > have one though? Does it simply > add memory to the display board? > > >I've concluded that I must have a differnt Google (my own "Cole Porter", > > >if you will permit a Python allusion) than everyone else: > > >http://m24.museodelcomputer.org/site/doc.html > On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > did you stop to think what "NM" meant? IOW I found it. > > Non-Maskable. [interrupts] > > New Mexico??!? . . . NM = nevermind (chatrooms and txt speak) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 30 19:16:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:16:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: <50E0E24D.8070009@sydex.com> References: <1356912011.60472.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50E0E24D.8070009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121230171438.R89729@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I figured that if it were a "never mind", that you wouldn't have gone to > the trouble of sending the message.... > Silly me. A "never mind" could be a valid request to disregard what somebody said, or everything that they ever say. From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 19:25:51 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:25:51 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: Mike, Thanks. If that's the case, let me try making a couple more disks using different disk images that I can find online and see if I have any better luck. If not, I'll try the drive speed adjustment. If you don't mind sending me a pointer for that, it sounds like it would be a good thing to have regardless of whether I need to use it this time or not Thanks, Win --------- Hi Win, It sound like the floppy you created from the image is good -- usually you get the immediate "Retry" message if the III can't recognize the disk at all. As long as you used the CFFA to create the disk from the image, just as you would an Apple II disk, it should work. >From what I've experienced, what you're seeing is usually (but not always) one of two things: 1) The disk image you used to create the image has a driver installed for a piece of hardware that isn't present in your system (i.e, a ProFile drive) and SOS has loaded the driver and is waiting for the peripheral to respond. SOS is supposed to be smart enough to realize that hardware isn't there and move on with the loading process, but it doesn't always work that way. or 2) your drive needs to be adjusted. I have about two dozen Disk III drives and every single one of them required a speed adjustment before they would work when I acquired them. LMK if you need the procedures for that. - Mike From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Dec 30 19:28:30 2012 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:28:30 -0600 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <9FF87F61-E898-4164-B602-D4B8B8D8F0B2@centurytel.net> I have a functioning PDP-11/23+ system (4 Mb RAM, 16-line serial card, two RL02's; RT-11XM, TSX-Plus) in the half-height "corporate cabinet". Since I got it running and played ADVENT a few times, I find I never use it... would anyone be interested in buying it? If so I'd much prefer you came and picked it up; located in West Plains MO. Email me for pictures. thanks Charles From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 19:48:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:48:25 -0500 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> On 12/29/2012 04:03 PM, John Wilson wrote: > But it seems like these days everything everywhere is about making > people keep paying you fees forever. They must teach that in > business school... In fact they do; it's the latest sleazy suit thing...turn products into services. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 19:57:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:57:36 -0500 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: <50DE8030.9050307@sydex.com> References: <50DE5110.9060001@sydex.com> <201212290256.VAA03788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50DE6CA0.3030909@sydex.com> <50DE7253.3050804@neurotica.com> <50DE8030.9050307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E0F110.4010704@neurotica.com> On 12/29/2012 12:31 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Did you mean a "DI"? What issue was that in? That sounds like a >> great hack. >> >> The trick I always use, which assumes use with a microcontroller, is >> to interrupt with one line and check the state of the other line in the >> ISR. That works nicely. But pulses on one or the other of two lines >> would make a really nice drive mechanism for tap-up/tap-down-interface >> digipots. > > It was ED, not EDN (whoops), but here's the article: > > http://tinyurl.com/ckznjw7 > > I love those things--like the one that allows you to drive a chain of > LEDs with only a single I/O on an MCU. Ahh! I like it!! Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 20:11:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:11:43 -0800 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E0F45F.3010206@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 05:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/29/2012 04:03 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> But it seems like these days everything everywhere is about making >> people keep paying you fees forever. They must teach that in >> business school... > > In fact they do; it's the latest sleazy suit thing...turn products > into services. In the bad old PCI days, you could program a CPLD to handle the interface. I've got a 3x8255 digital interface board done that way with a Xilinx XC95xx on it that reports a vendor ID of something like 00000000. It works anyway. --Chuck From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 20:18:19 2012 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:18:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. Reuseable code is about 3x the cost of a point design, your customer wants to pay for that? No way. You want nice readable code, change the incentives. --- On Wed, 12/26/12, Terry Stewart wrote: > From: Terry Stewart > Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2012, 11:30 AM > Seen on one of my Google groups > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ > > Terry (Tez) > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 20:21:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:21:21 -0500 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <50E0F45F.3010206@sydex.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> <50E0F45F.3010206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E0F6A1.5070205@neurotica.com> On 12/30/2012 09:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/30/2012 05:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 12/29/2012 04:03 PM, John Wilson wrote: >>> But it seems like these days everything everywhere is about making >>> people keep paying you fees forever. They must teach that in >>> business school... >> >> In fact they do; it's the latest sleazy suit thing...turn products >> into services. > > In the bad old PCI days, you could program a CPLD to handle the > interface. I've got a 3x8255 digital interface board done that way with > a Xilinx XC95xx on it that reports a vendor ID of something like > 00000000. It works anyway. Nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 30 20:22:32 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:22:32 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E0F6E8.2080505@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/12/12 7:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 30, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> They think that garbage >>>> collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider >>>> the resource consequences of their implementation. >>> >>> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff >>> like managing our own memory anymore!" >> >> sbrk() or GTFO > > Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. > > -Dave > Give me the right abstraction or give me death. :D --T From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 21:03:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 01:03:24 -0200 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> <50E0F45F.3010206@sydex.com> <50E0F6A1.5070205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >> In the bad old PCI days, you could program a CPLD to handle the >> interface. I've got a 3x8255 digital interface board done that way with >> a Xilinx XC95xx on it that reports a vendor ID of something like >> 00000000. It works anyway. But what happens if you put a pair of them into a machine? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 21:33:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:33:05 -0800 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> <50E0F45F.3010206@sydex.com> <50E0F6A1.5070205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E10771.7080600@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 07:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> In the bad old PCI days, you could program a CPLD to handle the >>> interface. I've got a 3x8255 digital interface board done that way with >>> a Xilinx XC95xx on it that reports a vendor ID of something like >>> 00000000. It works anyway. > > But what happens if you put a pair of them into a machine? Trouble? :) AFAIK, the resources are fixed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 30 22:02:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:02:35 -0800 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?)) In-Reply-To: <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2B70.2030509@bitsavers.org> <20121229000323.GA10767@dbit.dbit.com> <50DF1C16.6080404@bitsavers.org> <20121229210320.GA25257@dbit.dbit.com> <50E0EEE9.4050505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E10E5B.4010501@sydex.com> On 12/30/2012 05:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > In fact they do; it's the latest sleazy suit thing...turn products > into services. And pretty much all it gets you is a Vendor ID. It'd be a different matter if the PCISIG charged a one-time fee or kept a detailed database of specifications for every PCI device, to insure against loss of information when a vendor went belly-up. But just keeping your VID around will run you $3K per year. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 22:19:52 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 04:19:52 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 December 2012 15:00, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > I wonder what the state of the art in Atari emulation is? Very good, I believe. There are various emulators for gamers which can emulate different early/original models with great fidelity so that you can run demos and so on - this is the main focus. There are also some emulators for those who wish to run desktop TOS apps. Also, x86 PC GEM itself is now GPL open-source: http://www.deltasoft.com/Default.htm (The FreeGEM community is where I first "met" CCmper Gene Buckle.) There have been efforts to bring across some of the Atari improvements, but development largely stalled quite a few years ago. On the Atari side, various people wrote replacements of various bits of TOS - the VDI, the AES, the desktop and so on - and some of these parts were FOSS. Eventually, the result was a complete FOSS Atari OS, containing almost no original Atari code but highly compatible. It's called AFROS and it runs best on an emulator called ARANYM, which is designed for running TOS and TOS apps on PCs, rather than games. http://aranym.org/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 30 22:27:22 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:27:22 -0800 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:19 AM +0000 12/31/12, Liam Proven wrote: >On 27 December 2012 15:00, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: >> I wonder what the state of the art in Atari emulation is? > >Very good, I believe. There are various emulators for gamers which can >emulate different early/original models with great fidelity so that >you can run demos and so on - this is the main focus. > >There are also some emulators for those who wish to run desktop TOS apps. > >Also, x86 PC GEM itself is now GPL open-source: >http://www.deltasoft.com/Default.htm > >(The FreeGEM community is where I first "met" CCmper Gene Buckle.) > >There have been efforts to bring across some of the Atari >improvements, but development largely stalled quite a few years ago. > >On the Atari side, various people wrote replacements of various bits >of TOS - the VDI, the AES, the desktop and so on - and some of these >parts were FOSS. > >Eventually, the result was a complete FOSS Atari OS, containing almost >no original Atari code but highly compatible. It's called AFROS and it >runs best on an emulator called ARANYM, which is designed for running >TOS and TOS apps on PCs, rather than games. >http://aranym.org/ Now that is seriously interesting! I knew there was a reason I was keeping up with this thread! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 30 23:04:50 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:04:50 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic at web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance > capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. This is only true for one-off contract work type software. When you're working on a product that has a lifetime longer than a single release, it is very different. Every company I've worked at has considered the lifetime of the software to span beyond the first release and "how the code looks" was most certainly important to them. > Reuseable > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, Based on what? Again, this is not in line with my experience as a person paid to write software. On my current team, we peer review our code through a web application called Review Board. Making code that isn't a cheap throwaway one-off doesn't cost us 3x more. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From microcode at zoho.com Sun Dec 30 23:47:05 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 05:47:05 +0000 Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> References: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20121231054705.GA28095@zoho.com> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 04:59:39PM -0600, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I have two Model F keyboards (original PC or XT) that have gone bad > due to an intermittent connection in the DIN connector. I'm not > sure how these were originally assembled, but in the mode of failure > that I have the pins (embedded in the round black plastic that > spaces them) come out of the rubber sleeve. Pressing tightly > restores connection for a little bit, but it is not really usable > that way. > > Finding the DIN plug is not a problem. But I really don't want to > hack off the end of the cable with the nice molded IBM plug. These > are not museum pieces, but I'd like the repair to be unobtrusive. Well said. > > Has anybody else run into this problem and attempted a fix? I'm > also open to just replacing the cord entirely, but I doubt that > there is a surplus of originals laying around anywhere. Email the guy at clickykeyboards.com and ask if he has the complete cable. And sign up for geekhack.com and ask the guys over there also. It's probably the biggest English language keyboard forum on the net right now. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 31 00:32:00 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 01:32:00 -0500 Subject: Code review - Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50E13160.7080102@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/12/12 12:04 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic at web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, > steve writes: > >> Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance >> capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. > > This is only true for one-off contract work type software. When > you're working on a product that has a lifetime longer than a single > release, it is very different. Every company I've worked at has > considered the lifetime of the software to span beyond the first > release and "how the code looks" was most certainly important to them. > >> Reuseable >> code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > Based on what? Again, this is not in line with my experience as a > person paid to write software. On my current team, we peer review our > code through a web application called Review Board. Making code that > isn't a cheap throwaway one-off doesn't cost us 3x more. Where I work we use Gerrit (a Google tool well integrated with Git). Code review is pretty thorough and most commits are seen by all team members. I highly recommend the practice for any team. --Toby From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Dec 31 01:29:51 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:29:51 -0000 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? In-Reply-To: <50E0C56F.1060503@brouhaha.com> References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> <50E0C56F.1060503@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <7E9661A9187A4D9A8B298E309796132C@MailBox> True but the solvent on its own wouldn't do it. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 30 December 2012 22:51 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fans for a PDP-9? Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well, when I worked at DEC in the terminals group in fact they used WD40's > penetrating qualities to un-clog print heads before a quick wash in a > solvent. > The "quick wash in a solvent" is the key thing. WD-40 by itself will leave a residue that gums up the printhead. A solvent is needed to remove that residue. From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 14:51:38 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:51:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AT&T 6300 mono monitor In-Reply-To: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Dec 30, 2012 12:00:00 pm GMT Message-ID: Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > > Maybe I've got the name wrong--perhaps it was called the EDB--it was a display enhancement board added to the M24 and attached to the standard controller that provided 16 colors per pixel (IIRC) in 640x400 hi-res mode. > > --Chuck > > C: I would love details on that board if anyone has them. Where's Jim Leonard? There's a GEM driver in three incarnations (ATTDEBP6.SYS for GEM 2.1 SDDEB7.SYS for GEM 2.2 SDDEB8.EGA for GEM 3.0) that supports the Display Enhancement Board. The FreeGEM driver source at includes the latest source for this driver; it's in the files whose names begin DEB. -- John Elliott From jonas at otter.se Sun Dec 30 18:11:13 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 01:11:13 +0100 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E0D821.3080409@otter.se> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:27:48 -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Yes, I'm never again letting the machine out of my sight or leaving > the house without Crazy Psycho Bitch Lady With No Respect For Personal > Property in tow, and/or the machine and rack bolted to the floor, > wall, and any available fixed surface. Because*I* didn't do anything > to lose my entire PDP-11 system beyond living at my university dorm. > CPBLWNRFPP did something to my system and it is out of my possession > without any way for me to get it back -- and she can't give me a > straight story as to whether she threw the machine out, or sold it. > Personally since she has no idea what the machine was other then an -- > in her words -- "old, dirty, fucking computer" I think she carted it > to the dump and tossed it. Oh and it was*FAR* from dirty as I made > sure to keep it spotless (the all white bevel/faceplate drove me nuts > as it seemed to attract dust from everywhere in a three light year > radius... just like my piano). Get Rid Of Her. Now. From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Sun Dec 30 22:28:56 2012 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:28:56 -0600 Subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question In-Reply-To: <50E05FC9.10409@e-bbes.com> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> <1DF3B304-B25C-417A-8809-A1315A072F52@comcast.net> <50E05FC9.10409@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <2705FD52-B3EE-46D2-89D4-C431951D54A5@comcast.net> On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-12-30 00:27, mls wrote: >> >> Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings should be? > > By coincidence, I had a 9000/300 here, which I didn't power up yet. > > But didn't have any problems with it at all. > Used just the normal cables which were laying around here: > > Self-Test Mode > Copyright 1990, > Hewlett-Packard Company. > All Rights Reserved. > > BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90 > Bit Mapped Video > MC68040 Processor > Configuration EEPROM > HP-HIL > RESET To Restart > Self-Test Mode > HP-IB > DMA-C0 > Self-Test Mode > RAM 16776900 Bytes > HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 > HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 14 > HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08000925E5A8 > HP PARALLEL at 23 > System Search Mode > > Cheers, > emanuel Thanks - the HP cable (which works with all the 'newer' items) did not work, but a standard serial cable did... Self-Test Mode Copyright 1989, Hewlett-Packard Company. All Rights Reserved. BOOTROM Rev. D Bit Mapped Video MC68030 Processor MC68882 Coprocessor HP-HIL.Keboard RESET To Power-Up Self-Test Mode HP-IB DMA-C0 Self-Test Mode RAM 8388356 Bytes HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 HP98265 (SCSI S 16) at 11 Self-Test Mode HP98625 (HS HP-IB) at 14 HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 080009059D02 System Search Mode From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Sun Dec 30 22:28:56 2012 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:28:56 -0600 Subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question In-Reply-To: <50E05FC9.10409@e-bbes.com> References: <50DF8062.2030202@compsys.to> <1DF3B304-B25C-417A-8809-A1315A072F52@comcast.net> <50E05FC9.10409@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <2705FD52-B3EE-46D2-89D4-C431951D54A5@comcast.net> On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-12-30 00:27, mls wrote: >> >> Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings should be? > > By coincidence, I had a 9000/300 here, which I didn't power up yet. > > But didn't have any problems with it at all. > Used just the normal cables which were laying around here: > > Self-Test Mode > Copyright 1990, > Hewlett-Packard Company. > All Rights Reserved. > > BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90 > Bit Mapped Video > MC68040 Processor > Configuration EEPROM > HP-HIL > RESET To Restart > Self-Test Mode > HP-IB > DMA-C0 > Self-Test Mode > RAM 16776900 Bytes > HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 > HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 14 > HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08000925E5A8 > HP PARALLEL at 23 > System Search Mode > > Cheers, > emanuel Thanks - the HP cable (which works with all the 'newer' items) did not work, but a standard serial cable did... Self-Test Mode Copyright 1989, Hewlett-Packard Company. All Rights Reserved. BOOTROM Rev. D Bit Mapped Video MC68030 Processor MC68882 Coprocessor HP-HIL.Keboard RESET To Power-Up Self-Test Mode HP-IB DMA-C0 Self-Test Mode RAM 8388356 Bytes HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 HP98265 (SCSI S 16) at 11 Self-Test Mode HP98625 (HS HP-IB) at 14 HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 080009059D02 System Search Mode From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 01:59:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 05:59:55 -0200 Subject: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter software?) References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121229000632.GA10887@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <8E2F79ECD2BD41C3BF1BFF9F1C7C8B68@tababook> > I've got a PLX9050 RDK in my basement, with the hilarious extender-style > ISA socket on the top edge of the board -- but it's PIO only. No DMA. Very interesting! Manual with photo and schematics on http://www-corot.obspm.fr/COROT-ETC/Files/rdkmanver1.2_98doc.PDF From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 02:08:18 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:08:18 -0200 Subject: Fans for a PDP-9? References: <50DCE826.4030800@brouhaha.com> <50DE1602.2010907@brouhaha.com> <50DE1940.4000108@jwsss.com> <50DE96CD.1030806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2F285CC521C14272BAFEFD1E8399ABE8@tababook> > You might investigate getting some rubber stamp pad ink and apply it to > your dry ribbon. The old "Mac Inker" was a rig with a felt pad with a > reservoir that spread ink onto your slowly-moving ribbon. Motive power > was a small geared down (perhaps 4 RPM) synchronous motor. And there were clones of this machine everywhere, even in Brazil! ;o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 02:10:20 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:10:20 -0200 Subject: DP8473A References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229091412.E64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6D7285529306414A93DC920B65ED9614@tababook> > If that wasn't more than you want to know about it, or if you > are offended by the oversimplifications, we could go through > the reasons and structures of every part of the IBM/WD > soft-sector disk format. Very instructive and interesting. I'm watching :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 02:19:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:19:24 -0200 Subject: rtVAX 300. References: <201212170844.DAA20652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121217174947.GA19882@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230194851.GA17019@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <21D831601D6346C29EE3B8ACEE5A52EC@tababook> > Again for you: > http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-1.jpg > http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-2.jpg > http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-outside.jpg How interesting! For the sake of curiosity, has bigger/better photos? :) From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Dec 31 03:46:26 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 09:46:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <037001cde6f0$5d7216f0$185644d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <037001cde6f0$5d7216f0$185644d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1356947186.86511.YahooMailNeo@web133118.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> > It is not labelled RD31 and may have been used in a completely different > system, probably a PC. I am happy to enter all the TEST 70 parameters (found > a link for this), but it does not prompt me, it gives an error and then just > exits the test. I made the same experience when I performed a "DEC-format-marathon" with ten ST-225 drives which were neither DEC-labeled nor where DEC-formatted before. Most of my disk drives where successfully formatted after having entered the drive parameters for the "TEST 70" procedure, but in case of some drives, the procedure was aborted. These drives where not successfully recognised as RD31 and no format was performed by my microVAX-2000 in these cases. What I found out is that the drives which were not recognised as RD31's were drives with some bad blocks detected when formatted with a PC. Can anybody else comment on or has made that experience? Kind regards, Pierre From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 31 03:55:34 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 01:55:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1356947734.48599.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > At 4:19 AM +0000 12/31/12, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 27 December 2012 15:00, William Barnett-Lewis > wrote: >>> ? I wonder what the state of the art in Atari emulation is? >> >> Very good, I believe. There are various emulators for gamers which can >> emulate different early/original models with great fidelity so that >> you can run demos and so on - this is the main focus. >> >> There are also some emulators for those who wish to run desktop TOS apps. that's more wait I want :) >> >> Also, x86 PC GEM itself is now GPL open-source: >> http://www.deltasoft.com/Default.htm >> >> (The FreeGEM community is where I first "met" CCmper Gene Buckle.) >> >> There have been efforts to bring across some of the Atari >> improvements, but development largely stalled quite a few years ago. >> >> On the Atari side, various people wrote replacements of various bits >> of TOS - the VDI, the AES, the desktop and so on - and some of these >> parts were FOSS. >> >> Eventually, the result was a complete FOSS Atari OS, containing almost >> no original Atari code but highly compatible. It's called AFROS and it >> runs best on an emulator called ARANYM, which is designed for running >> TOS and TOS apps on PCs, rather than games. >> http://aranym.org/ > > Now that is seriously interesting!? I knew there was a reason I was > keeping up with this thread! more websites to bookmark > > Zane From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 31 04:04:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:04:41 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <21D831601D6346C29EE3B8ACEE5A52EC@tababook> References: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230194851.GA17019@beast.freibergnet.de> <21D831601D6346C29EE3B8ACEE5A52EC@tababook> Message-ID: <20121231100441.GB94209@beast.freibergnet.de> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >Again for you: > >http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-1.jpg > >http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-internal-2.jpg > >http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-outside.jpg > > How interesting! For the sake of curiosity, has bigger/better photos? :) Ok, will make some later (next year). They are computded down anyways.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 31 04:32:04 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:32:04 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: 31 December 2012 00:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > >emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > >On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > >> I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. > >> At the > >> moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I can > >> format it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and TEST 71 > >> commands fail on it, unable to determine the type of disk. There are > >> some jumpers for which I have found some documentation here: > >> http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB-5- > 25-H > >> H-MFM-S > >> > >> T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure what > >> settings the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor > >> termination pack. > >> > >> Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to work > >> in a 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? > > > > AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of the > > cable. And it should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was used on a > > different system. Is it labeled as a rd31? Probably you have to do a > > real low level format, entering all the right parameters in the TEST70 > > yourself . > > Whenever I have used any RD5n or RD3n drive with the > RQDX3 controller on the PDP-11, the drive always had be be DS3. > > I don't know if the MSCP controller is built into the MicroVAX 2000, but I > suspect that DS3 is so standard with DEC that all MSCP RD3n drives must be > DS3 in a DEC system. > > Jerome Fine [Rob Jarratt] Thanks for the tip. I tried what I think is DS3 but it seems to make no difference, whatever I do this is what I get: >>> test 71 KA410-A RDver VSmsv_QUE_unitno (0-1) ? 0 VSmsv_STS_Siz .???? VSmsv_RES_ERR #2 84 FAIL >>> The error is immediate, I hear no head movement, no lights flash on the drive, it just spins. It is as if it was not recognising its presence at all. I suppose it could be the drive electronics, but I have no easy way of knowing that. Regards Rob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 31 05:24:07 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:24:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: DP8473A In-Reply-To: <20121229091412.E64915@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229091412.E64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > If that wasn't more than you want to know about it, or if you > are offended by the oversimplifications, we could go through > the reasons and structures of every part of the IBM/WD > soft-sector disk format. You misunderstood me. I know exactly what that all means. But you're right, I was mistaken IAM for IDAM. Christian From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Dec 31 07:38:16 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:38:16 -0700 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <1356947186.86511.YahooMailNeo@web133118.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <037001cde6f0$5d7216f0$185644d0$@ntlworld.com> <1356947186.86511.YahooMailNeo@web133118.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50E19548.4050805@e-bbes.com> On 2012-12-31 02:46, P Gebhardt wrote: > What I found out is that the drives which were not recognised as RD31's were drives with > some bad blocks detected when formatted with a PC. > Can anybody else comment on or has made that experience? DEC drives had a specific table for the bad block. If the controller doesn't find the table, it assumes that it is not a DEC drive. So if you used the drive on a non DEC system, and low level formatted it (very low actually ;-) ) and removed the information, you have to enter the parameter by hand :( From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 07:50:16 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:50:16 -0500 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> On 12/31/2012 05:32 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine >> Sent: 31 December 2012 00:16 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work >> >> >emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >>>> On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. >>>> At the >>>> moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I can >>>> format it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and TEST 71 >>>> commands fail on it, unable to determine the type of disk. There are >>>> some jumpers for which I have found some documentation here: >>>> http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB-5- >> 25-H >>>> H-MFM-S >>>> >>>> T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure what >>>> settings the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor >>>> termination pack. It must have the termination pack. If the connectors are inverted that usualy gets a nothing for results. >>>> >>>> Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to work >>>> in a 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? >>> AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of the >>> cable. And it should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was used on a >>> different system. Is it labeled as a rd31? Probably you have to do a >>> real low level format, entering all the right parameters in the TEST70 >>> yourself . >> Whenever I have used any RD5n or RD3n drive with the >> RQDX3 controller on the PDP-11, the drive always had be be DS3. >> >> I don't know if the MSCP controller is built into the MicroVAX 2000, but I >> suspect that DS3 is so standard with DEC that all MSCP RD3n drives must be >> DS3 in a DEC system. There is no MSCP controller in the MicroVAX2000. IT is a raw controller and system specific. However, it's usefulness is that it formats any media. FYI if you know the disk type (RD31 is ST225) that helps. You still have to have the drive jumpered correctly and more than even bet unless used on a DEC system it will have to be formatted. Allison From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 31 08:20:17 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:20:17 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> Message-ID: <03ca01cde761$f6ae6280$e40b2780$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison > Sent: 31 December 2012 13:50 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > On 12/31/2012 05:32 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > >> Sent: 31 December 2012 00:16 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > >> > >> >emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> > >>>> On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>>> I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. > >>>> At the > >>>> moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I > >>>> can format it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and > >>>> TEST 71 commands fail on it, unable to determine the type of disk. > >>>> There are some jumpers for which I have found some documentation > here: > >>>> http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225-21MB- > 5- > >> 25-H > >>>> H-MFM-S > >>>> > >>>> T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure what > >>>> settings the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the resistor > >>>> termination pack. > > It must have the termination pack. > > If the connectors are inverted that usualy gets a nothing for results. > >>>> > >>>> Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to > >>>> work in a 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? > >>> AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of the > >>> cable. And it should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was used on > >>> a different system. Is it labeled as a rd31? Probably you have to do > >>> a real low level format, entering all the right parameters in the > >>> TEST70 yourself . > >> Whenever I have used any RD5n or RD3n drive with the > >> RQDX3 controller on the PDP-11, the drive always had be be DS3. > >> > >> I don't know if the MSCP controller is built into the MicroVAX 2000, > >> but I suspect that DS3 is so standard with DEC that all MSCP RD3n > >> drives must be > >> DS3 in a DEC system. > There is no MSCP controller in the MicroVAX2000. IT is a raw controller and > system specific. However, it's usefulness is that it formats any media. > > FYI if you know the disk type (RD31 is ST225) that helps. > > You still have to have the drive jumpered correctly and more than even bet > unless used on a DEC system it will have to be formatted. > > > Allison Indeed, I am hoping to format it, but at the moment when I try that all I get is this: >>> test 70 KA410-A RDRXfmt VSfmt_QUE_unitno (0-2) ? 0 VSfmt_STS_Siz .?? VSfmt_RES_ERR #2 84 FAIL >>> And this is after setting the jumper for DS3 (if I have got my reading of the jumper orientation correct). Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 31 08:51:42 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:51:42 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <03ca01cde761$f6ae6280$e40b2780$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> <03ca01cde761$f6ae6280$e40b2780$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03d001cde766$5aa55ec0$0ff01c40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 31 December 2012 14:20 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; > cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison > > Sent: 31 December 2012 13:50 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > > > On 12/31/2012 05:32 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > > >> Sent: 31 December 2012 00:16 > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > >> > > >> >emanuel stiebler wrote: > > >> > > >>>> On 2012-12-30 14:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >>>> I have a Seagate ST-225 that I want to put into my Micro PDP-11/73. > > >>>> At the > > >>>> moment I am just trying to see if the disk works at all and if I > > >>>> can format it in a MicroVAX 2000. It spins up but the TEST 70 and > > >>>> TEST 71 commands fail on it, unable to determine the type of disk. > > >>>> There are some jumpers for which I have found some documentation > > here: > > >>>> http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST225- > 21MB- > > 5- > > >> 25-H > > >>>> H-MFM-S > > >>>> > > >>>> T412.html, but I am not sure which is pin 1, and I am not sure > > >>>> what settings the MicroVAX 2000 wants, or if it needs the > > >>>> resistor termination pack. > > > > It must have the termination pack. > > > > If the connectors are inverted that usualy gets a nothing for results. > > >>>> > > >>>> Can anyone tell me which jumper settings I need for the disk to > > >>>> work in a 2000? And whether I need the resistor pack installed? > > >>> AFAIRC, it should have the resistors in, as it is at the end of > > >>> the cable. And it should be recognized by the TEST70, or it was > > >>> used on a different system. Is it labeled as a rd31? Probably you > > >>> have to do a real low level format, entering all the right > > >>> parameters in the > > >>> TEST70 yourself . > > >> Whenever I have used any RD5n or RD3n drive with the > > >> RQDX3 controller on the PDP-11, the drive always had be be DS3. > > >> > > >> I don't know if the MSCP controller is built into the MicroVAX > > >> 2000, but I suspect that DS3 is so standard with DEC that all MSCP > > >> RD3n drives must be > > >> DS3 in a DEC system. > > There is no MSCP controller in the MicroVAX2000. IT is a raw > > controller > and > > system specific. However, it's usefulness is that it formats any media. > > > > FYI if you know the disk type (RD31 is ST225) that helps. > > > > You still have to have the drive jumpered correctly and more than even > > bet unless used on a DEC system it will have to be formatted. > > > > > > Allison > > Indeed, I am hoping to format it, but at the moment when I try that all I get > is this: > > >>> test 70 > > > > KA410-A RDRXfmt > > > VSfmt_QUE_unitno (0-2) ? 0 > > VSfmt_STS_Siz .?? > > VSfmt_RES_ERR #2 > 84 FAIL > >>> > > And this is after setting the jumper for DS3 (if I have got my reading of the > jumper orientation correct). > > Regards > > Rob Success! My reading of the jumper orientation was incorrect, misled by a pre-installed jumper. It seems to be recognised as an RD31 now! Regards Rob From sales at elecplus.com Mon Dec 31 09:04:32 2012 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 09:04:32 -0600 Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <20121231054705.GA28095@zoho.com> References: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> <20121231054705.GA28095@zoho.com> Message-ID: <002201cde768$2400f530$6c02df90$@com> I have IBM XT and AT kbds that are missing keycaps. I could pull the cable assembly for you, $10 plus postage. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of microcode at zoho.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:47 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IBM Model F DIN connector repair On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 04:59:39PM -0600, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I have two Model F keyboards (original PC or XT) that have gone bad > due to an intermittent connection in the DIN connector. I'm not sure > how these were originally assembled, but in the mode of failure that I > have the pins (embedded in the round black plastic that spaces them) > come out of the rubber sleeve. Pressing tightly restores connection > for a little bit, but it is not really usable that way. > > Finding the DIN plug is not a problem. But I really don't want to > hack off the end of the cable with the nice molded IBM plug. These > are not museum pieces, but I'd like the repair to be unobtrusive. Well said. > > Has anybody else run into this problem and attempted a fix? I'm also > open to just replacing the cord entirely, but I doubt that there is a > surplus of originals laying around anywhere. Email the guy at clickykeyboards.com and ask if he has the complete cable. And sign up for geekhack.com and ask the guys over there also. It's probably the biggest English language keyboard forum on the net right now. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5999 - Release Date: 12/31/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5999 - Release Date: 12/31/12 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 31 09:36:24 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:36:24 -0500 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <03d001cde766$5aa55ec0$0ff01c40$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> <03ca01cde761$f6ae6280$e40b2780$@ntlworld.com> <03d001cde766$5aa55ec0$0ff01c40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E1B0F8.50906@compsys.to> >Rob Jarratt wrote: >Success! My reading of the jumper orientation was incorrect, misled by a >pre-installed jumper. It seems to be recognised as an RD31 now! > Just for curiosity, do you believe that the new setting is DS3? I don't have an RD31, let alone a MicroVAX 2000. But if DS3 is required, that would confirm my assumption that all DEC systems use DS3 for the RD5n and RD3n drives. WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If two hard drives are being installed in a BA23 box using either a SIX button front panel or other means to enable the second drive to be recognized (I built one for myself out of diodes, resistors and switches), then ONLY the first drive is set for DS3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The SECOND hard drive MUST be set for DS4 in a BA23 box regardless of which DSn is used when it is formatted. If both drives are not WRITE PROTECTED when you attempt to use them, BOTH formats will be lost, probably along with any files that were present. (I still remember the moment when I lost both formats on a BA23 box over 25 years ago after I forgot to switch the second drive to DS4 after it had just been formatted by itself in the box using DS3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) With a BA123 box, the same DS3 setting is ALWAYS used since there is a separate dual distribution board in the 13th slot. That board can hold a total of four drives, including 2 hard drives and two floppy drives or 4 hard drives or maybe 4 floppy drives - although I can't remember how that would be done. Note that each hard drive also requires its own switch panel as well. Since there is room for 2 dual distribution boards, a total of 8 hard drives can be installed for two MSCP controllers, although the user would need to find a place for the additional four switch panels for the second MSCP controller on a BA123. Jerome Fine From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 10:24:38 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:24:38 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 12/30/2012 03:38 PM, Richard wrote: > > Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even > > sloppier code than they write in C++. > > ...and that's saying something! > > > They think that garbage > > collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider > > the resource consequences of their implementation. > > Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff > like managing our own memory anymore!" > > Morons. Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have to think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the interview tends to end fairly quickly. Bill S. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 31 11:30:54 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 09:30:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: > >> Reuseable >> code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > Based on what? Again, this is not in line with my experience as a > person paid to write software. On my current team, we peer review our > code through a web application called Review Board. Making code that > isn't a cheap throwaway one-off doesn't cost us 3x more. > Even if there were increased costs on the front end, the savings in maintainability will win out in the long term. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 11:51:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 09:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: DP8473A In-Reply-To: References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229091412.E64915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121231094527.D10528@shell.lmi.net> > > If that wasn't more than you want to know about it, or if you > > are offended by the oversimplifications, we could go through > > the reasons and structures of every part of the IBM/WD > > soft-sector disk format. On Mon, 31 Dec 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > You misunderstood me. I know exactly what that all means. But you're > right, I was mistaken IAM for IDAM. No problem with that! YOU seem to know what you are talking about. But, there are some others here who are unfamiliar with that track structure and reasons for address marks, and I just naturally slipped into part of my (3 hour!) class lecture, that starts with FM, and goes to RLL, with detailed examination of the reasons behind the IBM/WD track format. There also seemed to be some conflation of index pulse (hardware) and Index Address Mark (software and format). BOTH of which can complicate reading weird alien disks, From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 31 12:02:47 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 19:02:47 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> References: <201212172226.RAA24600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Sun, 2012-12-30 20:36:49 +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Mouse wrote: > > > > > >> Did you read the internal EEPROMs out already? > > > > No. How should I do this? > > > > > > Are they socketed? > > > > > > > The only way todo is reading them with the internal Console Software, > > > > but at first I had to know on wich Address a VAX is starting and if > > > > the MMU is mapping the ROM somewhere later ... > > > > > > You _probably_ can read them with e/l/p from the console, with suitable > > > addresses - I think that's how I dumped my KA630's ROM. > > > > > > The problem, of course, is determining the "suitable addresses". In > > > the case of the KA630 I dealt with, the manual says: EK-KA630-UG-001 > > > says, on page 3-2, that the ROM appears twice in physical address space > > > (once at 20040000-2004FFFF and again at 20050000-2005FFFF). I seem to > > > > Fast Check: > > > > P 20040000 0004A531 > > P 20040004 09110002 > > P 20040008 6E6E6E6E > > > P 2004000C 03020100 > > P 20040010 55555555 > > P 20040014 AAAAAAAA > > P 20040018 33333333 > > This is the start of the system ROM, as used with the usual 3100 / > 4000 class of machines. My reading of this (I've dumped a good number > of ROMs) is that the firmware is provided by four ROMs, each supplying > one byte of a longword. > > [...] > > > ...at least here is something, but w/o knowing the machine code, I would > > say that this are some vectors, not code and that followed by some > > deadbeef. > > You usually have some header, containing a JMP to the ROM's actual > start address. These ROMs are usually 64, 128, 256 or 512KB. > > Usually, the last part of the ROM isn't used (and thus filled with > all-0x00 or all-0xff), except the very last four bytes, which often > hold a checksum. That way, it's quite easy finding the correct length. > Just jump the contents of the supposed end addresses and see if it's > all zeroes (except a 4-byte checksum that's probably there.) > > I'd be _highly_ interested in getting a ROM dump! I once wrote a > firmware dumper helper, that reads the ROM byte-by-byte (slow using a > serial link, but it works.) You can find it at > http://vax-linux.org/gitweb/?p=firmware_dumper.git;a=summary > > For a VAX, you probably need to start it like this: > > $ ./dumper --target vax --device /dev/ttyS0 --speed 9600 --bits 8 \ > --parity N --stop 1 --outfile rtVAX300.bin --start 0x20040000 \ > --len 524288 --scheme 3 > > MfG, JBG > > -- > Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 > Signature of: Fortschritt bedeutet, einen Schritt so zu machen, > the second : da? man den n?chsten auch noch machen kann. I've compiled your program and it is still dumping the rtVAX.. a little slow. In the meantime I wrote a small converter that I used to convert the previous ascii dump out of the VAX Console to binary. Do you use the XFER feature of the VAX console? ...haven't looked at this jet.. The binary ROMfile is here: http://www.tiffe.de/robotron/VAX/rtVAX300-v1.2.bin This is Neat: "The guilty parties are: Yousif Asfour, Hardware Mike Moroney, Firmware John Day, That funny memory board Gene Smith, Tester board Bill Heavey, Hold 5 minute meetings that last 3 hours Andres Tirado, Get mad because it is not done yet" BTW: Why you are fiddeling with the bits in termios.c_cflag for the Baud rate when functions like speed_t cfgetospeed(const struct termios *t); int cfsetospeed(struct termios *t, speed_t speed); int cfsetspeed(struct termios *t, speed_t speed); and friends are existing? ...patched the serial.c a little since I have no CBAUD or CBAUDEX definition on my system. Kind Regards and a happy new Year! Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From db at db.net Mon Dec 31 12:02:51 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:02:51 -0500 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121231180251.GA51975@night.db.net> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 05:03:38PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > is there such thing as a db-9 hood with a bore as large as a db-25 or > > more specifically a db-23? Or what about a grommet to take up the slack > > in the larger hood? > > A DB-9 IS EXACTLY the same hood as a DB-25. That is what 'B' means. > 'D' is the shape, 'B' is the size, 9 or 25 is number of pins. > Did you perhaps mean a DE-9? > 'E' size is used for 2 row 9 pin, and for 3 row 15 pin. > > Without the size letter, how would we tell the difference between a DA-15 > and a DE-15? > > I have some DB-9s, they have space for 25 pins, but only have pins in > positions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 20 > > The D-23 doesn't have a size letter. I remember being amused by our "The Canadian Amateur" including both an article on why it was the DE-9 not the DB-9, and then including another article labelling a DE-9 as a DB-9. The irony. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com - Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 12:17:29 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 19:17:29 +0100 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work Message-ID: In the past I successfully low-level formatted PC-formatted ST225 using XXDP2.5 directly on PDP11/53 with RQDX3. If I remember correctly, I used ZRQCH. As I had a machine with RX33 (5"1/4), I prepared a booting image of XXDP on SIMH, transferred the image to floppy disk with vtserver, then executed the diagnostic program, inserted the right parameters, and voil?. It worked like a charm on all the ST225 I have, also on one that have a lot of defective sectors. Andrea From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 31 12:18:28 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:18:28 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <50E1B0F8.50906@compsys.to> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> <03ca01cde761$f6ae6280$e40b2780$@ntlworld.com> <03d001cde766$5aa55ec0$0ff01c40$@ntlworld.com> <50E1B0F8.50906@compsys.to> Message-ID: <040001cde783$3cf825c0$b6e87140$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: 31 December 2012 15:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > >Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >Success! My reading of the jumper orientation was incorrect, misled by > >a pre-installed jumper. It seems to be recognised as an RD31 now! > > > Just for curiosity, do you believe that the new setting is DS3? Yes, I believe it is now set for DS3. > > I don't have an RD31, let alone a MicroVAX 2000. But if > DS3 is required, that would confirm my assumption that all DEC systems use > DS3 for the RD5n and RD3n drives. > > WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > If two hard drives are being installed in a BA23 box using either a SIX button > front panel or other means to enable the second drive to be recognized (I > built one for myself out of diodes, resistors and switches), then ONLY the > first drive is > set for DS3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The SECOND hard drive MUST > be set for DS4 in a BA23 box regardless of which DSn is used when it is > formatted. If both drives are not WRITE PROTECTED when you attempt to > use them, BOTH formats will be lost, probably along with any files that > were present. (I still remember the moment when I lost both formats on a > BA23 box over 25 years ago after I forgot to switch the second drive to DS4 > after it had just been formatted by itself in the box using DS3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) [Rob Jarratt] Yes I have heard this before, but can't say I would always remember this. In any case I only have one disk in my BA23s. > > With a BA123 box, the same DS3 setting is ALWAYS used since there is a > separate dual distribution board in the 13th slot. Yes, I have a BA123 with this distribution board. That board can hold a total > of four drives, including 2 hard drives and two floppy drives or 4 hard drives > or maybe 4 floppy drives - although I can't remember how that would be > done. Note that each hard drive also requires its own switch panel as well. > Since there is room for 2 dual distribution boards, a total of 8 hard drives can > be installed for two MSCP controllers, although the user would need to find > a place for the additional four switch panels for the second MSCP controller > on a BA123. That is something I did not know. > > Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 31 12:30:40 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:30:40 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , geneb writes: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: > > >> Reuseable > >> code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > > > Based on what? Again, this is not in line with my experience as a > > person paid to write software. On my current team, we peer review our > > code through a web application called Review Board. Making code that > > isn't a cheap throwaway one-off doesn't cost us 3x more. > > > Even if there were increased costs on the front end, the savings in > maintainability will win out in the long term. Agreed, but even so, I'm not seeing 3x cost for maintainable code. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 31 12:39:45 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:39:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: > > In article , > geneb writes: > >> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012, Richard wrote: >> >>>> Reuseable >>>> code is about 3x the cost of a point design, >>> >>> Based on what? Again, this is not in line with my experience as a >>> person paid to write software. On my current team, we peer review our >>> code through a web application called Review Board. Making code that >>> isn't a cheap throwaway one-off doesn't cost us 3x more. >>> >> Even if there were increased costs on the front end, the savings in >> maintainability will win out in the long term. > > Agreed, but even so, I'm not seeing 3x cost for maintainable code. Well of course not. The 3x figure is nothing more than frantic hand-waving and hyperbole. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 12:45:13 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:45:13 -0200 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. A new sound by nerdy kenedys? From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Dec 31 12:46:31 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:46:31 -0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: >This is Neat: >"The guilty parties are: > Yousif Asfour, Hardware > Mike Moroney, Firmware Isn't at least one of those on the list? Or am I thinking of a different list? http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=9497225&authType=NAME_SEARCH&aut hToken=q9mS&locale=en_US&srchid=f93c81c4-d0ad-49cd-9bfb-43927e463f18-0&s rchindex=1&srchtotal=65&goback=%2Efps_PBCK_*1_Mike_Moroney_*1_*1_*1_*1_* 2_*1_Y_*1_*1_*1_false_1_R_*1_*51_*1_*51_true_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_ *2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2&pvs=ps&trk=pp_profile_name_link Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 13:13:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:13:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E0F6E8.2080505@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> <50E0F6E8.2080505@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121231111140.J12130@shell.lmi.net> > > Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. > Give me the right abstraction or give me death. :D Death to both ouf you! Give me access to the innards, but let me use high level structures for stuff that Idon't want to bother with. "The great thing about C is that it is easy to shove it out of the way when you need to get lower." From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 13:23:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:23:37 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E1E639.8080107@neurotica.com> On 12/31/2012 01:45 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. > > A new sound by nerdy kenedys? Absolutely. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 13:25:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:25:13 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20121231111140.J12130@shell.lmi.net> References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> <50E0F6E8.2080505@telegraphics.com.au> <20121231111140.J12130@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E1E699.3010508@neurotica.com> On 12/31/2012 02:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. >> Give me the right abstraction or give me death. :D > > Death to both ouf you! > Give me access to the innards, but let me use high level structures for > stuff that Idon't want to bother with. I maintain that this is exactly "control of the machine". > "The great thing about C is that it is easy to shove it out of the way > when you need to get lower." Yes, most definitely! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 31 13:59:15 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:59:15 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20121231111140.J12130@shell.lmi.net> References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> <50E0F6E8.2080505@telegraphics.com.au> <20121231111140.J12130@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E1EE93.4090808@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/12/12 2:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Yes. Give me control of the machine, of give me DEATH. >> Give me the right abstraction or give me death. :D > > Death to both ouf you! > Give me access to the innards, but let me use high level structures for > stuff that Idon't want to bother with. > > "The great thing about C is that it is easy to shove it out of the way > when you need to get lower." Isn't that what I said? What's funny is that C is called a high level language. :) --Toby From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 14:07:13 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:07:13 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: Mike, Another follow up that probably sheds a bit more light on my Apple III issue. I tried copying some additional disk images today. I tried the CFFA SOS image, but it exhibited the same behavior as the other SOS image...the floppy drive spins for about 3 sec and then nothing. On a whim, I tried the RAM test image. It worked and brought up the RAM test screen and began the test. It stops and indicates bad RAM where shown in the pic in the imgur link below. There appears to be third party RAM in this III. Is that common? Is there a way to test without that RAM that would be recommended? I did reset all of the RAM chips on the board, but it still fails at the same location. http://imgur.com/a/c40m0 On the bright side, I'm thinking this is a good sign for the floppy drive...the down side is obviously RAM issues. Thanks, Win From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 14:08:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:08:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: DP8473A In-Reply-To: <6D7285529306414A93DC920B65ED9614@tababook> References: <1356546129.36893.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50DB492D.70004@bitsavers.org> <98168EF0F77B411D8DDB7FB808C89B61@tababook> <50DDD01C.5070205@bitsavers.org> <20121228231115.GA10253@dbit.dbit.com> <50DE2BDE.4040402@bitsavers.org> <50DE308A.60409@gmail.com> <20121228165311.G40984@shell.lmi.net> <50DE4958.3010104@sydex.com> <20121229091412.E64915@shell.lmi.net> <6D7285529306414A93DC920B65ED9614@tababook> Message-ID: <20121231115500.F12130@shell.lmi.net> > > If that wasn't more than you want to know about it, or if you > > are offended by the oversimplifications, we could go through > > the reasons and structures of every part of the IBM/WD > > soft-sector disk format. On Mon, 31 Dec 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Very instructive and interesting. I'm watching :) I don't have any of my class handouts any more (I looked). (page from Bill Barden's plus annotations for format, plus a page with examples for NRZ, FM, MFM, RLL/GCR) I could write up description, BUT, some people would be annoyed at "remedial" content (I tend to be patronizing/condescending), AND, there are many here, such as Tony and/or Chuck, who could do a much better job than I can. If people want. But, my mother reacted badly to the [now discontinued] Parkinson's med, fell and broke her back. Now it's 24 hour care. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 31 14:09:00 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:09:00 -0000 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space Message-ID: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> What PDP11 OS would fit on a 20MB ST-225? I had hoped RSX-11M+ 4.2 would fit, but it doesn't. The OS would need to run on an 11/73. Regards Rob From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Dec 31 14:29:48 2012 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 21:29:48 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20121231202948.GA10671@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2012-12-31 19:02:47 +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I've compiled your program and it is still dumping the rtVAX.. > a little slow. In the meantime I wrote a small converter that > I used to convert the previous ascii dump out of the VAX Console > to binary. I haven't optimized it for speed in any way. That is, it's slow... > Do you use the XFER feature of the VAX console? ...haven't looked at this > jet.. No, I don't. The program dumps it byte for byte. > BTW: Why you are fiddeling with the bits in termios.c_cflag for the Baud > rate when functions like > > speed_t cfgetospeed(const struct termios *t); > int cfsetospeed(struct termios *t, speed_t speed); > int cfsetspeed(struct termios *t, speed_t speed); > > and friends are existing? The program is actually quite old, several years, and I probably didn't know better at that time. > ...patched the serial.c a little since I have no CBAUD or CBAUDEX > definition on my system. Feel free to send me a patch! > Kind Regards and a happy new Year! Just a few hours left :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: If it doesn't work, force it. the second : If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 14:42:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:42:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20121231123626.M12130@shell.lmi.net> > > Whenever I have used any RD5n or RD3n drive with the > > RQDX3 controller on the PDP-11, the drive always had be be DS3. On Mon, 31 Dec 2012, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Thanks for the tip. I tried what I think is DS3 but it seems to make no > difference, whatever I do this is what I get: If it is not responding to DS3, then it is time to monitor the CABLE, and see which drive select the computer is trying to use. "Solderless breadboard"s may be crap for many kinds of circuits, but for drive cabling, they provide a usable break-out, for watching signals, temporarily interrupting signals, and temp[orarily jumpering to other pins. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 15:25:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:25:38 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like v8, should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Dec 31, 2012, at 3:09 PM, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > What PDP11 OS would fit on a 20MB ST-225? I had hoped RSX-11M+ 4.2 would > fit, but it doesn't. The OS would need to run on an 11/73. > > Regards > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 31 15:39:59 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 21:39:59 -0000 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 31 December 2012 21:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space > > > Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like v8, > should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. BitSavers looks like it has 11M 4.0 in a 19MB virtual tape, here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11m/ Assuming that is the right one to go for? I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and non-plus? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > > On Dec 31, 2012, at 3:09 PM, "Rob Jarratt" > wrote: > > > What PDP11 OS would fit on a 20MB ST-225? I had hoped RSX-11M+ 4.2 > would > > fit, but it doesn't. The OS would need to run on an 11/73. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 16:05:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:05:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E1EE93.4090808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201212302231.qBUMVM6Z28705012@floodgap.com> <53B265F3-A051-48DC-89BE-0EBB23086833@neurotica.com> <50E0F6E8.2080505@telegraphics.com.au> <20121231111140.J12130@shell.lmi.net> <50E1EE93.4090808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121231140433.H12130@shell.lmi.net> > > "The great thing about C is that it is easy to shove it out of the way > > when you need to get lower." On Mon, 31 Dec 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > Isn't that what I said? > What's funny is that C is called a high level language. :) Which shows how meaningless "high level language" can be. From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 19:39:39 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:39:39 -0800 Subject: 2GB Iomega Ditto Drive Message-ID: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> Free... Going into my e-waste pile if no one wants it. Just thought Id ask... -Kurt From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Dec 31 05:22:02 2012 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:22:02 +0100 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter References: Message-ID: <9759D34606E74ABCA2768E1D613E4569@medion> Hello ALL ! I have got an strange idea for the last day of the year ( It was time ;-) ) I am wondering about a PCI to EXTERNAL ISA interface board. Here is what in think of : PCI interface board INSIDE a present days PC, LINKED TO external ISA passive backplane. ( outside of the PC ) With , ideally, as discussed before on this thread, DMA possibilities Does it ( still ? ) exist some ***afordable*** commercial product ? Does that has been already discussed somewhere on this forum ? Does someone built that kind of interface , DIY way, in the past ? Will there be restrictions on this connectivity, if the PC "reverse" ( is run ) under plain DOS versus running DOS under Windows ?? PLS, remember that I am a new comer on this file, so I may be sligthly out of topic in this thread. If so , my apology. Thanks and Happy New Year Everybody !! From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Dec 31 07:13:27 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:13:27 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition References: <50E0C4FD.7000307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: My reference for PMI memory placement. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note 28.0 MSV11-Q/M/J Memory Comparisons No replies FURILO::GIORGETTI 175 lines 21-AUG-1985 23:07 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- +---------------+ +-----------------+ | d i g i t a l | | uNOTE # 028 | +---------------+ +-----------------+ +----------------------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Title: MSV11-Q/M/J MEMORY COMPARISONS | Date: 28-JUN-85 | +----------------------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Originator: JACK TOTO | Page 1 of 3 | +----------------------------------------------------+-----------------+ This MicroNote will compare three of Digital Equipment Corporation's newest memory modules. Following the description of each memory module, is a chart which, list the differences between these memories. MSV11-Q ------- The MSV11-Q has three versions, the MSV11-QA, the MSV11-QB and the MSV11-QC. The MSV11-QA (M7551-A) is a quad size Q-bus memory module and contains 1MB of MOS RAM using 64K bit parts. The MSV11-QA has two etch revisions which must be checked when configuring the module into a system. The two revisions are the C rev and the A rev, both of these revisions are discussed in the Users Guide (EK-MSV1Q-UG) and in Micronote # 030. The second version of the MSV11-Q is the MSV11-QB (M7551-B) which is a half populated quad size Q-bus memory module containing 2MB of MOS RAM using 256K bit parts. The last version of the MSV11-Q is the MSV11-QC which is a fully populated MSV11-QB quad size Q-bus memory module containing 4MB of MOS RAM using 256K bit parts. Both the MSV11-QB and the MSV11-QC use the MSV11-QA printed circuit board, however that board is ECOed to etch level C. MSV11-J ------- The MSV11-J has four versions, the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC which are used in the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems and the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are used in either the MicroPDP-11/83 Q-bus systems, or the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems. All four modules use ECC memory for error correction, as well as using 256K bit MOS RAM parts on either a half or fully populated quad size module. NOTE: ----- NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q BACKPLANE SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS AND TO THE SYSTEM. The MSV11-JB (M8637-BA) is a half populated quad size PMI memory module containing 1MB of memory. The second version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JC (M8639-CA), this is a fully populated MSV11-JB quad size PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These two modules can not be used in a Q-bus system due to gate array incompatibilities, and can only 217 uNOTE # 028 Page 2 of 3 be used in PDP-11/84 systems which use the UNIBUS/PMI bus interface (KTJ11-A). The third version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JD (M8639-DA) which is a half populated quad size PMI memory module containing 1MB of memory. The last version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JE, (M8639-EA) which is a fully populated MSV11-JD quad size PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These last two modules can be used with either the MicroPDP-11/83 system which uses the Q-bus/PMI bus interface or the PDP-11/84 system which was mentioned above. For details reference the PMI protocol Micronote # xxx. Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be used in two other Q-bus configurations. 1. If either of these two memories are used in slots 1 and/or 2 of a Q/CD backplane such as the H9276 (BA11-S box) or in the MicroPDP-11 BA23 backplane, and with the standard 15MHZ KDJ11-B cpu (non-fpj compatible) in slot 3, the system will perform PMI memory cycles. In the case of BA23 backplanes, a maximum of two memory modules may be used in slots ahead of the processor, with a minimum of one memory module in front of the processor still functioning as PMI memory. In the case of the H9276 backplane a number of MSV11-JD/JE memory modules may be used ahead of the processor bringing the system to a full 4MB of PMI memory. 2. If in a Q/CD or BA23 backplane the memories reside in slots 2&3 with either of the KDF11 or KDJ11 processors in the slot 1 the MSV11-J memories will respond as standard Q-bus memories, performing normal Q-bus and block mode memory cycles. This use of the MSV11-J memories is also true for the MicroVAX cpu. However the fact that the MicroVAX I cpu is a two board set requires a slightly different configuration. Slots 1&2 will be used for the MicroVAX I cpu boards with only one memory card used, that being located in slot 3 for the BA23 backplane and one or more memory cards being used for other Q/CD backplanes. The only constraint with either of the second configurations is that in the BA23 or other Q/CD backplanes no module may be placed adjacent to the MSV11-J that uses pins in the CD connector. Instead leave an empty slot between the MSV11-J and this option. An option which does not use the CD interconnect may be placed adjacent to the MSV11-J. From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Dec 31 10:49:35 2012 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:49:35 +0100 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter References: Message-ID: About John's design If I understand correctly, your are using one of the newest Xcore product, I guess, mainly for USB "full access", and this new chip is not yet available, is it ? Question, because your project seems very interesting to me : Why did you chose that Xcore product, versus already available chips like PIC 32 ?. I am NOT a specialist about chips, but I do not see much difference between the two, USB speaking. Do you take advantage of the multi-core chip ?? To me ( again, I am not a specialist, so pardon the question ) Is complexity of multi cores chips "justified" for that kind of interface ? I mean architecture and compiler learning complexity balanced versus advantages ?? Or is it just for the learning fun ;-) From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Dec 31 19:43:43 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 01:43:43 +0000 (WET) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work Message-ID: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> > > I made the same experience when I performed a "DEC-format-marathon" with ten > ST-225 drives which were neither DEC-labeled nor where DEC-formatted before. > Most of my disk drives where successfully formatted after having entered the > drive parameters for the "TEST 70" procedure, but in case of some drives, > the procedure was aborted. These drives where not successfully recognised > as RD31 and no format was performed by my microVAX-2000 in these cases. > What I found out is that the drives which were not recognised as RD31's were > drives with some bad blocks detected when formatted with a PC. > Can anybody else comment on or has made that experience? > I successfully formatted several oddball non-DEC-branded drives rescued from a skip (dumpster) using a VS2000. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the details but I suspect some at least had a list of bad blocks on the label. I seem to recall that I did not have any way of knowing what the correct parameters were and I found some by extrapolating from the example in the manual and by trial and error. I agree with the general view that they should be jumpered as DS3 for the internal drive. I eventually made a new drive cable so that I could have a "hot swappable" disk outside the case. This worked great until I came upon one particular drive which, when I pushed the connectors onto it, the VS2000 PSU promptly switched itself off. I was somewhat puzzled as I was using an external PSU for the disk and could not have been overloading the VS2000 PSU or so I thought. I pulled off the connectors, power cycled the machine and tried connecting the drive again and the same thing happened. Not to be defeated, I tried connecting all the cables up and then powering up the VS2000. This time the PSU tried harder, the machine powered up and one of the wires in the data cable turned itself into a heating element, melted and nearly set fire to its insulation. It seems that one of the wires in the data lead to the external drive has a not very well protected +5V on it and at least one drive variant shorts this to ground... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 20:24:41 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:24:41 -0600 Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> References: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> Message-ID: <50E248E9.40506@gmail.com> On 12/30/2012 04:59 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I have two Model F keyboards (original PC or XT) that have gone bad due to > an intermittent connection in the DIN connector. I'm not sure how these > were originally assembled, but in the mode of failure that I have the pins > (embedded in the round black plastic that spaces them) come out of the > rubber sleeve. Pressing tightly restores connection for a little bit, but > it is not really usable that way. > > Finding the DIN plug is not a problem. But I really don't want to hack off > the end of the cable with the nice molded IBM plug. These are not museum > pieces, but I'd like the repair to be unobtrusive. > > Has anybody else run into this problem and attempted a fix? What's at the other end of the cable? It's been so long that I don't remember. I assume it goes via some molded strain-relief widget at the keyboard end, but does it terminate within the keyboard with a plug that *is* replaceable (or perhaps wires soldered straight to a PCB)? If so, personally I'd replace the whole molded cable and plug with modern parts, but keep the original cable and faulty connector to pass on to a future owner. Then I'd have a working keyboard, but a subsequent owner could return it to a partly-functional original "museum piece" if they wanted (or hack the plug off and replace that if they so desired, but at least I still would have done my bit to preserve things). cheers Jules From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 21:01:30 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:01:30 -0500 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <50E2518A.5040709@verizon.net> On 12/31/2012 08:43 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> I made the same experience when I performed a "DEC-format-marathon" with ten >> ST-225 drives which were neither DEC-labeled nor where DEC-formatted before. >> Most of my disk drives where successfully formatted after having entered the >> drive parameters for the "TEST 70" procedure, but in case of some drives, >> the procedure was aborted. These drives where not successfully recognised >> as RD31 and no format was performed by my microVAX-2000 in these cases. >> What I found out is that the drives which were not recognised as RD31's were >> drives with some bad blocks detected when formatted with a PC. >> Can anybody else comment on or has made that experience? >> > I successfully formatted several oddball non-DEC-branded drives rescued from > a skip (dumpster) using a VS2000. It was a long time ago and I don't remember > the details but I suspect some at least had a list of bad blocks on the label. > I seem to recall that I did not have any way of knowing what the correct > parameters were and I found some by extrapolating from the example in the manual > and by trial and error. I agree with the general view that they should be > jumpered as DS3 for the internal drive. I've formatted many a drive used in and returned from PCs. MY experience has been if the drive was woking it was formatible. Dives formatted: Quantum D540 Microplous 1325s from PCs St506, 412, 225, 235, 250 Maxtor 150mb models and a few others that are notable by my memory failing to remember them. All of the RD5x both RQDX1/2 and RQDX3(Note RQDX3 has a slightly different format) All of the RX (excluding RX180) The VS2000 is the universal formatter and a lot easier than using the RQDX formatters. > I eventually made a new drive cable so that I could have a "hot swappable" > disk outside the case. This worked great until I came upon one particular drive > which, when I pushed the connectors onto it, the VS2000 PSU promptly switched > itself off. I was somewhat puzzled as I was using an external PSU for the disk > and could not have been overloading the VS2000 PSU or so I thought. I pulled > off the connectors, power cycled the machine and tried connecting the drive > again and the same thing happened. Not to be defeated, I tried connecting all > the cables up and then powering up the VS2000. This time the PSU tried harder, > the machine powered up and one of the wires in the data cable turned itself into > a heating element, melted and nearly set fire to its insulation. It seems that > one of the wires in the data lead to the external drive has a not very well > protected +5V on it and at least one drive variant shorts this to ground... Yes, there were a few that had grounds up top (even side) or jumperable configuration that resulted in grounds on top. The VS2000 and the RQDXn all put 5V for the terminator on the cable as well. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 21:06:08 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:06:08 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50E252A0.3040205@verizon.net> On 12/31/2012 04:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like v8, should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. > > -Dave > I have RSTS on RL02 so it must fit on 10mb! RT11 fits on anything, the whole build kit is two RL02s (boot and kits) I know of none that do not fit. RSTS and RSX are big and might have to be trimmed a little or some optional part left off. I do know we ran all of them off three RM03s (one per OS) on GRAF an 11/70. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 21:08:37 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:08:37 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E25335.7050505@verizon.net> On 12/31/2012 03:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > What PDP11 OS would fit on a 20MB ST-225? I had hoped RSX-11M+ 4.2 would > fit, but it doesn't. The OS would need to run on an 11/73. > > Regards > > Rob > NOTE: an 11/73 runs all the OSs. Others that run on 20mb or less is Unix V6, V7, 2.11. I have V6 on a RL02 (10mb) with user space. Generally PDP11 OSs tend to be compact. Allison From wilson at dbit.com Mon Dec 31 21:32:58 2012 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:32:58 -0500 Subject: USB and PCI (was Re: DP8473A (was IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130101033258.GA19411@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 05:49:35PM +0100, GerardCJAT wrote: >If I understand correctly, your are using one of the newest Xcore product, >I guess, mainly for USB "full access", and this new chip is not yet >available, is it ? Good question. XMOS has been claiming it's real since last spring, and the last date I got for public release was Jan 2013. As of a couple of weeks ago, Future has stock, but they're being douchey about it (screening buyers). Still, I'm hoping that means Digikey will have it for sale to anybody within a month or two, so I'm just putting the finishing touches on a prototype PCB layout. >Why did you chose that Xcore product, versus already available >chips like PIC 32 ?. >I am NOT a specialist about chips, but I do not see much difference >between the two, >USB speaking. That part's definitely true. These days you finally have lots of choices with USB. I already have working USB code in a PIC18 design, but it's just not quite fast or flexible enough for bit-banging the interfaces I care about. >Do you take advantage of the multi-core chip ?? Yes yes yes! It's *wonderful*. Not that I've done much other multi-core stuff (just x86, unless emulation counts) but they've done multi-core really really cleanly (and then written a multi-threaded mutated C compiler that erases most of the benefits, but if you program it in assembly you get them all, plus it's easier to control the lengths of your code paths when it matters). The pro-UNIX bias of the designers is obvious (for better or for worse), so there's a "get resource" instruction that acts like a UNIX "open()" call (which gives you a handle which you can use in I/O instructions to talk to timers, channels, locks, or other threads), and then the event-wait mechanism works a lot like select() (except with a vector for each handle), so activity on any handle will wake you out of a "wait" instruction. So each hyperthread's main loop isn't even a loop -- you just handle an event, re-arm it, and do another "wait" instruction. >To me ( again, I am not a specialist, so pardon the question ) Is >complexity of multi cores >chips "justified" for that kind of interface ? It wouldn't always be, but because it's done so cleanly in the XMOS chips it helps much more than it hurts. So in my ISA FDC, there's one hyperthread which does nothing but handle accesses from the ISA bus, another which does nothing but read/write the FDD bitstream, and another which acts as a FIFO between the two. That's much easier to get working than having a tangled mass of interrupts and worrying about whether each event will be handled fast enough even if something else interrupts at just the wrong time. The instruction set is horrible (except for a few very useful things like the CRC, bit-reverse, and byte-reverse instructions), but not bad enough to get in the way of getting work done. And having instructions execute every 10 ns, almost no matter what (until you have >4 hyperthreads and then it derates to 20 ns if you use all 8 slots), is great for bit-banging. John Wilson D Bit From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 31 21:38:19 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:38:19 -0500 Subject: Question about DEC PMI Processors & Gear Acquisition In-Reply-To: References: <50E0C4FD.7000307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50E25A2B.10603@compsys.to> >Daniel Snyder wrote: > [Snip] > > NOTE: > ----- > NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q > BACKPLANE SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL > BE DONE TO THE BOARDS AND TO THE SYSTEM. THANK YOU for this post and the above vital warning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! While it would have been unlikely to attempt to use an MSV11-JD or MSV11-JE memory board in that fashion when they should be reserved for use with the PMI memory function activated, at a point when it was just easier to pick up a board that was right at hand, it might occur. I assume that the above warning is with respect to magic smoke appearing if an MSV11-J board is ever placed into a Q/Q backplane slot such as what is present in a VT103. One other example of damage occurring after placing two boards into two adjacent Q/Q slots is the two board 18 bit controller set for the RL01 / RL02 drives. The M8013 / M8014 boards MUST NOT BE PLACED INTO A TWO ADJACENT Q/Q BACKPLANE SLOTS. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED, PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS. I have not seen this warning anywhere, but it was experienced first hand around 20 years ago. > [Snip] > > Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be > used in > two other Q-bus configurations. > 1. If either of these two memories are used in slots 1 and/or 2 of > a Q/CD backplane such as the H9276 (BA11-S box) or in the > MicroPDP-11 BA23 backplane, and with the standard 15MHZ KDJ11-B > cpu (non-fpj compatible) in slot 3, the system will perform PMI > memory cycles. In the case of BA23 backplanes, a maximum of two > memory modules may be used in slots ahead of the processor, > with > a minimum of one memory module in front of the processor still > functioning as PMI memory. In the case of the H9276 backplane > a number of MSV11-JD/JE memory modules may be used ahead of the > processor bringing the system to a full 4MB of PMI memory. This first configuration for the Qbus BA23 box is the standard expected placement of the memory boards and exactly why they were manufactured. > 2. If in a Q/CD or BA23 backplane the memories reside in slots 2&3 > with either of the KDF11 or KDJ11 processors in the slot 1 > the MSV11-J memories will respond as standard Q-bus > memories, > performing normal Q-bus and block mode memory cycles. This use > of the MSV11-J memories is also true for the MicroVAX > cpu. > However the fact that the MicroVAX I cpu is a two board set > requires a slightly different configuration. Slots 1&2 will be > used for the MicroVAX I cpu boards with only one memory card > used, that being located in slot 3 for the BA23 backplane and > one or more memory cards being used for other Q/CD > backplanes. > The only constraint with either of the second configurations is > that in the BA23 or other Q/CD backplanes no module may be > placed adjacent to the MSV11-J that uses pins in the CD > connector. Instead leave an empty slot between the MSV11-J and > this option. An option which does not use the CD interconnect > may be placed adjacent to the MSV11-J. I notice that this warning does not appear in the same BOLD LETTERS as the first warning. While there is no guarantee, it seems likely that no damage to the system or the boards will occur, but rather a lack of correct operation of the system. Likewise, I tend to assume that the lack of any warning of placing an M8190-AE board into a Q/Q (ABAB backplane such as is present in a VT103) is also acceptable. In almost every case (except where there is an explicit warning against doing so - of course that warning would have to be known and so caution is probably best in all cases), all quad Qbus boards which operate by themselves are able to exist in either an ABCD slot or an ABAB slot. Otherwise, DEC would have been forced to manufacture two options of each board when the BA23 backplane was introduced with 3 slots at the top being ABCD and the other 5 slots being ABAB serpentine. Since I know of only two examples (one of which I learned about less than 30 minutes ago), I feel that it is likely there are few, if any, additional examples. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 31 22:31:03 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 23:31:03 -0500 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <040001cde783$3cf825c0$b6e87140$@ntlworld.com> References: <036701cde6d3$2ddba630$8992f290$@ntlworld.com> <50E0D1AA.4070703@e-bbes.com> <50E0D931.9070502@compsys.to> <03c201cde742$15593cc0$400bb640$@ntlworld.com> <50E19818.40300@verizon.net> <03ca01cde761$f6ae6280$e40b2780$@ntlworld.com> <03d001cde766$5aa55ec0$0ff01c40$@ntlworld.com> <50E1B0F8.50906@compsys.to> <040001cde783$3cf825c0$b6e87140$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E26687.9060702@compsys.to> >Rob Jarratt wrote: >>From: Jerome H. Fine >>Sent: 31 December 2012 15:36 >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work >> >>Just for curiosity, do you believe that the new setting is DS3? >> >Yes, I believe it is now set for DS3. > Thank you for the information. It confirms what I expected. >>With a BA123 box, the same DS3 setting is ALWAYS used since there is a >>separate dual distribution board in the 13th slot. >> >Yes, I have a BA123 with this distribution board. > It certainly is much easier to have 2, 3 and even 4 hard drives. >>Since there is room for 2 dual distribution boards, a total of 8 hard drives can >> >>be installed for two MSCP controllers, although the user would need to find >> >>a place for the additional four switch panels for the second MSCP controller >> >>on a BA123. >> >That is something I did not know. > I just looked at my BA123 which I rarely use these days. It has an RQDX3 and an RQDX2 so that I can transfer files between drives which have the different formats. This saved making a copy to a tape first, then formatting the drive and making a copy back. I continued to use the RD53 drives for a while to perform benchmarks during the 1990s. The RD53 drive was about 25% slower than an EDSI drive like the Maxstor 8760E or the Hitachi DK515. SCSI drives were about the same speed as the ESDI drives when used with the CMD host adapters. At this point, RD53 drives should not be used except for scratch. Rarely, I hear of an RD53 that still works unless the sticky bumper has been removed. IN FACT, there are actually 5 switch panels on that BA123 with a blank space for an additional switch panel which only needs the hole cut and a place for the bolt used to anchor the switch panel. So assuming that I attached an RX50 dual drive to the RQDX2, that would be sufficient switch panels to support both the RQDX3 with 4 hard drives and the RQDX2 with 2 hard drives and the dual RX50 drive. It is probably not going to happen at this point, but back when I used that box quite a bit, it would have been useful. Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 31 23:34:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:34:28 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds corrected Message-ID: I introduced an error in a recent change to the scripts that generate bitsavers RSS feeds for PDF and bits. The symptoms were that the URLs for intermediate directories were incorrect and the category for files was incorrect. I believe I have corrected those errors and the scripts should be working properly again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From m.schoeller at gmx.ch Mon Dec 31 20:47:34 2012 From: m.schoeller at gmx.ch (m.schoeller at gmx.ch) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 03:47:34 +0100 Subject: IMSAI FDC-2 Message-ID: <20130101024734.54430@gmx.net> Dear Mr. Watzman I am an IMSAI 8080 owner from Switzerland. Currently i look for an IMSAI FDC floppy system with CalComp 140 drives. I startet my search for this floppy system several years ago, but i could never found it. Now, i'm googling on IMSAI FDC and your name is the first result what i see. I contact some peoples (Todd Fischer, Herb Johnson, John Monahan and Howard Harte (who never answered)) and some others. Well, did you now who has one of these and they are willing to sell? Thanks in Advance Matt Schoeller Switzerland